Good morning everyone. Good morning. I realize it is not morning for everyone. So quick reminder to everyone, especially new folks on the call. This call is recorded from the time it starts and then when it ends it is automatically uploaded to YouTube. So do realize that you are being recorded and what you say here will be public. Yep. Cool. That said, here's the link to the meeting minutes and if folks can start adding themselves to the meeting minutes that would be useful. Sorry. Now that the race is on and then usually it takes a few minutes for everyone to form up and we'll get going then. By the way, do feel free if you have things you want to add to the agenda. We usually start the meeting with agenda bashing. We haven't formally started that yet but you could go ahead and add things to the agenda anyway. We're pretty free flowing about the agenda. For folks who are just arriving, we usually allow a few minutes for folks to turn up. It usually takes until about five after. Also, please keep in mind that the meeting is recorded from the time that it starts and is automatically posted to YouTube afterwards. Everything you say is being recorded and will be public. If folks could please go to the meeting minutes that I just stuck in the chat. Sorry, anyone? I stuck them in the chat wrong. That I just stuck in the chat. We keep a list of attendees. This is actually super useful. So if you could add yourself to the attendee list, that would be great. Can I get a mic check? I hear you. Fantastic. Let me go ahead and actually start sharing the meeting minutes. That typically makes things easier for folks. Can everyone see the meeting minutes? Yes. Awesome. Also, we need some additional things on the agenda. So we have to talk more about various things other than where we're going to stick the repo. Yeah. Do you want to talk at all about some of the SDK stuff today, Nikolai, or are you still sort of ruminating? Yeah, I can. Awesome. I think we're all just, many of us are just getting back from the Christmas break. Do we have Matthew on the phone? I know he also wanted to talk about moving the Vagrant to using Debian 9 instead of Ubuntu 1804 because apparently there's a problem with using the Ubuntu 1804 boxes with Libvert. Actually, his latest update is about Ubuntu 16.04. Oh, okay. So you're just trying 16.04, not 1804? Yeah. Not the Ubuntu 1804, but the generic 16.04. This is due to DNS mask. I don't remember something about that. Yeah. I mean, one of the nice things we want to look at is, frankly, this is another option we can take, which is that you can specify the box conditional on the provider. So that basically, if your provider is Libvert, then you use whatever. And that actually makes us quite a bit stronger because the broader set of environments that people are working in, with that work surface mesh, the less likely we are to have something that works in one environment and not another. I was looking at this the other week. I mean, I did some code changes, but I haven't pushed anything because it was basically hypothetical and I've never got too far as testing it. Well, it's now an 1804 box because I got frustrated and I upgraded it. And I was trying to get Libvert to work. But another option rather than using Vagrant is actually to use Terraform directly against Libvert, which is probably the better approach, to be perfectly honest. But it does mean that you're not using a box. You need an image rather than a Vagrant box. But the problem with Vagrant boxes is they're always tied to a provider. So that actually works better in some regards. Really kind of comes down to the make machinery was designs that you could have different ways of approaching the problem. So there's nothing wrong with having an MK file that will let you do a Terraform with Libvert directly. Yeah, it ended up with another layer of indirection, which as we know, solves all problems. But it was, we have, I'm going to blame Frederick here because his footprints were all over it. The make files are a bit funky because they're not really make files. They're just glorified script files in the form of a make file. But they're nested in such a way that if you change out the provider, you just basically change, it loads the different more users, a different set of make targets. But if you use that same trigger a level deeper, then you can basically make use Terraform against different make targets. And that also works. And I got it certainly partway. I can't say I'm proud of that particular piece of work yet, but the theory works. You just use Terraform to, I think what I was doing was using Terraform to create the virtual machines as well as get them configured. And that was making steady progress. And it also theoretically means, I think the long term aim that would be a good one is to use Terraform consistently for everything rather than doing Vagrant one way and other things a different way. But it gave some possibilities. Sorry, very, very woolly, I know. But I'm trying to work out how best to put that code up somewhere where someone can have a look at it. Well, before we dive down too much into this, we can stick that into the agenda as well. Yeah, we can. But seriously, it was like three weeks ago when I did this and I can't remember what the hell I did. So the actual answer here is for me to stick that on GitHub with no promise that it works. So at least somebody can see whether or not I'm doing the right thing or whether or not there might be a better approach there. Yeah, I think we should probably put this further down the agenda. Yeah, let's do that. But I also don't want to make the perfect enemy of the good. Well, at the moment, the virtual box is my enemy because I can't run it on the decent server that I have. So it limits what I can do. But that's why I was doing this, because it was, you know, if you want to, if you want to get this thing working first, you have to shave a yak. That was where I got to, to use a Perlism. Are you sure you don't have to flex a yak? Well, if you think if you wax it, that would probably be easier. But that's not how the how the saying goes.  And we should put that on the agenda later as well, or this could get into a very long discussion. Cool. So we're going to get the meeting started. So welcome to the first, welcome to the first meeting of the new year. So if you are new to the call, please add yourself to the agenda. And let's make sure the agenda is posted on the chat. But it looks like it already is. So we'll get a message. And so I'll go ahead and stick it there again. The chat only shows up if you're here, when the chat message is sent. So if we got people who joined last time, I put it there. Now you have it again. Great. And so agenda bashing, if there is something that you would like to talk about, please add it to the or please speak up now so we can add it to the agenda. Don't be shy of something that occurs to you as we go. Yeah, absolutely. And okay, so events. So we have Bozdem. I see Taylor just added something on the chat. Is that something to add to the agenda? No, it was just about the Libvert with Terraform, which is pretty cool. Okay, cool. So let's make sure that gets added as a link on the bottom. Okay, so we have events. We have Bozdem Brussels coming up with a networking dev room in February, second through the third. Nikolai added a relevant talk, which he is going to include network service mission. Yeah, but that was actually not accepted. And yeah, I'm not traveling, unfortunately. Okay, so is anyone going to Bozdem then by any chance? Or shall we remove it? Okay, let's go ahead and remove that. So we have upcoming events coming up. KubeCon EU, the call for paper closes on January 18th, and that is going to be held in Barcelona from May 20th through 23rd. We also have Mobile World Congress coming up, which is in February 25 through 28. So if you're involved with Mobile World Congress and have a way of getting network service mesh involved with some of the things you're doing, definitely feel free to ask for any help or anything like that. We'll do as much as we can. We also have the ONS North America call for paper, which is going to close on January 21st. And that's going to be held in San Jose from April 3rd through April 5th. So which is definitely going to have attendees because Frederick and I are both in the area soon. Absolutely. And so let's... More importantly, the bar of the San Jose Convention Center is a good place for us to hold it as a happy hour. And it has reasonable selection of beer as well, which is another step in the right direction. And if we don't like the bar there, I think it's in downtown San Jose. And if it is, then there's a lot of things around it. Okay. So for... I have a question for Barcelona actually. So is anyone planning to apply there for paper? Because we actually don't have much time today. So we have 10 days. Yeah. So for the QKaniU, I think we want to get a broad set of people submitting talks on service mesh and on different network service mesh topics. So it's for people to submit talks. You know, I've got a couple of ideas on the batting around with Frederick. Do you want to talk about any of those here, Frederick? So are you referring to the thing that I've been building so far? Yeah.  So one of the things that I have been taking a look at is how can we take a look at something like Envoy and see if we can chain Envoy in as a network service. And so this has a variety of very powerful integrations that we can do, which may help with multicloud or multi-cluster use cases, and also potentially may also solve an issue that they currently have with Envoy and Istio at the moment, which is that you need to have a privileged NIC container start up and IP tables mangling, which may provide an opportunity for a security hole that ends up waiting to apply to the table, because it doesn't happen immediately. So there's an opportunity there that we have.  So there's a lot of really nice features that we could add into that space. So I'm primarily working on how to get that integrated in to network service mesh, and it will likely turn into a talk at CubeCon, and I'm still making a decision on whether that'll be an overnesting as well. So Frederick, there's some work done in the Istio community to replace the NIT container with a CNI driver. Sorry, I'm pulling faces, but that sounds like that's actually a step down, rather than a step up. In order to use Envoy, first you have to change your platform, that's not the problem. Yeah, it's actually kind of clean. It's a CNI plugin. It was done by Tim Swanson in Boxborough. Okay, remind me to tell Tim off next time I see him. But actually, to be fair, that's useful information, because if it was done by Tim, you know, he's a Cisco guy, I can go talk to him. We can find out what he's thinking, and maybe there are other options there, because he probably doesn't know what we're up to. I point them to you guys too. So anyway, it's the same zip code that people are trying to solve the problem, Fred. So it's worthwhile solving. Well, can you add the name of the person who's doing what they're doing? Yeah, I'll say some links in the chat. Let me dig in. The way I'm looking at this is it's not about trying to compete with them. There may actually be an integration point where the techniques that they're using and the technique that we're using with our problems combined. He will almost certainly have a better understanding of the problem than we do. Well, John knows what he's talking about, but I don't. And Tim's basically at the cold face, he's working on the stuff, so he probably understands these things better still. So regardless of whether he has any inclination to change his approach, it would be nice if we understood the problem in its full detail, which he's almost certainly happy to explain to us. So there's the GitHub repository for HGF-CNI in the chat window. Cool. So in a nutshell, I'm actually looking at how to potentially integrate it using CNI as well just to make it easy. So there really could be some good crossover there. So I also saw we had something in the chat from Jeffrey about something in PLS-STN NFE. You want to ask about that real quick, Jeffrey? Sorry, double muted. I was just curious. And unfortunately, it overlaps with O&S, but I went to Paris last year. And to be honest, the NFE, in PLS-STN World of Congress is probably one of the best conventions I've ever been to. They had a lot of really, really smart people from AMIA in the U.S. there. And I was just kind of curious if NSM is going to start trying to push into that. I mean, it's very SDN and NFE focused. So I feel like NSM is probably a good fit for that conference. So the question is, would you be interested in submitting a talk? I'd have to do a lot of homework first.  So I could talk to you offline, Ed, about potentially doing that, but I would have to do quite a lot of homework. I've just started standing this stuff up in my lab with another homegrown Kubernetes project that we're building in-house trying to make them work together. So what week is that, to ask a silly question? Second week of April? One second, let me put my calendar. Okay. Because the last time I remember being in, I didn't go to it, I was near it at the time that it was on and it was, I think, February or something. So I was a little wonky with that. It's the second week of April, like the second Monday. Yeah, that's certainly a good idea though, because, and I guess it did not need to be too much of a spot. Two things are sort of behind my gentleness there. The first is it's very good to have people who are actually trying to use the soft talking about it. And the second is it's good to broaden the base people who are giving talks about network service. For that audience, particularly, but this is probably true of ONS. It's nice to talk about the technologies and how we put it together, but it's far more useful to show it doing things that are useful. In that regard, we should probably work out what would be a useful demonstration for that kind of audience. Exactly, I mean, that's probably a very useful thing to sort of... Yeah, with it being, obviously, MPLS being one of the big categories that it covers, it's very geared towards service providers like Charter and Georgetown Commendem. I see a lot of my SP peers there. Like you said, it's probably the best conference I've ever been to, no offense to the Cisco lifecraft. It's all good. It's all good. Cool. Awesome. Anybody else had other events? They think we should probably try and have some presents? So there's also the container world that happens every year in Santa Clara Convention Center. It's well attended and probably that would also be... In fact, I got an invite this year. Last year, I've given a presentation around cloud-network architecture for telco. Probably we can present about networks of mismatch this year. Awesome. Could you add it to the agenda and the... Yes, I'll do that. Yeah. And then, if you've spoken there before, would you be interested in speaking there about the mismatch? Sure. Yeah, definitely. Cool. Again, if we're putting this list together and it's going in the notes, then what appeals to the audience would be really, really useful information? That I think is, again, we know with KubeCon, then talking about Istio would be a fantastic thing. We know that ONS, if we start talking service provider, that would definitely kind of start whatever the phrase is. Tweaking the nipples, probably not good phrase, but that kind of thing. Do we want to propose both birds of feather session for KubeCon? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And that's probably a very good idea and possibly a bit more organized than what we did in KubeCon North America, which was less organized than I had intended.  But the last part of that is probably the most useful in the sense that we get more people involved and invested, and that's really what we could do with. So if we actually set this up with a social session, if we can find a way not to conflict with all the other events, then that would be, even if it's lunch, you know, something like that. This time, Ian, try to keep it napkin. It wasn't a napkin, it was Heather's note pad, and I'm sure she still has it. Awesome. Right, so this is all good feedback. And one of the things that we need to make sure that we add in on this is due dates for call for papers. And I think the closest one, did we say Mobile World Congress still has an open date? I'm not sure Mobile World Congress has much of a papery sort of conference, not what I've been, but I think it's more the sort of thing where demonstrations on vendor stands is probably what we'd be able to get. Okay, that makes sense. But I think the closest one is KubeCon, isn't it? I know there's a set of deadlines on January the 14th or 10th. It's one coming almost imminently that we need to keep an eye on. Yeah, January the 18th or for KubeCon you. There was another one as well. Somebody from the marketing organization mailed me. Let me just see what I can find out. Well, if you find any additional information, can you add it to the upcoming events section? I'm going to continue on with the agenda. We'll do. We'll do. Keep going. Cool, thank you. So the main topic that I want to start with is about the repo location. So right now the repo is stored within Legato, and Legato has been absolutely fantastic and very gracious with letting us use their space to get started. But as we look at our direction moving forward, there's a couple things coming up where keeping it in Legato may not be the best choice. So the first one is it is an independent project. It's not part of Legato, which may cause some issues when we start to approach groups like CNCF to become a member. And simultaneously there's been discussions about splitting up the repo into multiple repos and having basically flooding the Legato namespace is not good form. So I own the Network Service Mesh group in GitHub. And so my recommendation is that we move the Network Service Mesh repo to the Network Service Mesh group and add all the appropriate credentials and so on. The main thing we'll have to look at in this particular path is going to be the CircleCI integration and make sure that all our webbooks work and so on. And besides that it should be a relatively straightforward move. So anyways, we'll leave the topic open so for comments or questions right now. Well, okay. I'm definitely positive about this. I mean like it sounds like it makes sense. I don't know if we need to vote or what would be the procedure to decide if we want to move there or stay here with Legato. For these kinds of decisions typically I think the best first step is to express their opinions. Often when people express opinions you'll get a sense of consensus. If there's some disagreement we might fall back to voting. But I tend to prefer consensus as a way of sort of sorting out these questions. And then the next thing is to sort of ask okay well what would be involved. Right. So I'd be curious in hearing a broader set of thoughts and opinions from folks on the notion of doing this. And I know you've also given some thought on Nicolai to how we might divide into multiple variables. So we may want to talk about what that might look like. Yeah, but I mean we already have at least the main repo on the site so at least two repos can end up in that new group. Oh no, absolutely. Plus eventually if you want to split the main repo into examples and core SDK whatever we define there. Yeah, so you already know my opinion considering I brought it up. Yeah, do other folks have thoughts or opinions on the subject? Stages. I mean granted that we want to move this out of Legato but you know let's do that first because that seems to be least contentious and then figure out the splitting afterwards. Yeah, I completely agree and I think that's step one is move we'll start with the simplest repo. We'll start with Legato site get the website working again then we'll move the network service mesh get the CI working you know make sure that everything is is working and that makes make sure the community is not having any problems committing to it or doing pull requests and so on. And then we and then we step forward and I think we also need to have some documentation up on the page as to how to how to how to update your get repo to point to the new actually it should do forwarding automatically but it's probably some good idea to point to the network service mesh repo directly. It's trivial to explain how to do a get remote update so you know it's a one line command so as long as we put the documentation there we should be good. My suggestion would be to embrace the healing power van. Yeah we could even turn it into a script run the script it fixes your repo. You can't do that 100% reliably forget repose but yeah I mean we can do something to make it as trivial as possible. 99% of people unless they're doing something really funky are not going to have a difficulty. So it sounds like there's it sounds like there is consensus towards this is there anyone who thinks it's not a not a good idea that's a good idea so the the comment was that it looks like the nsm user is is inactive and it could ask github if they're willing to to force a relinquishing of the nsm and to give it to us. We can reach out to them as well that is a that is a possibility and one other comment oh no other comment. Okay so in in that particular scenario yeah let's let's go and start putting together some uh let's start let's start putting together some uh information on this. Well I'll reach out to github today and I'll I'll ask them about the nsm thing borrowing any uh if they say no then like I said like I said I think we should move the legato site first and we may need we may need to ask uh actually Ed who owns that is is the uh I forget the name of was it netlify uh who owns the account that uh that does the my guess is that because kyle set up the netlify account that he's the one who owns the credentials for the netlify account um I believe if memory serves that I currently own the domain name um so I will reach out to kyle and see what we can do about getting credentials the netlify account but worst case scenario um we just create a new netlify account um and share the credentials a little bit more appropriately that from there um and move the domain over to it. Okay so I think we got some initial actions to uh to make this happen then. Um is there any other comments before we before we move on? Polk in that scenario um Nikolai you have an option on or you have a space for go SDK? Yeah okay so uh sometime before uh kubicon North America like in the beginning of December I started uh trying to extract the common code from all the examples that we have and try to put it in a kind of an SDK. Actually I didn't know that it's an SDK uh until Ed told me that it is um uh yeah uh so uh I have a PR there I put some work there Ed already reviewed it thank you uh I will try to uh to adhere to his comments of course for the time being it was mostly about just extracting the common parts there's no real big uh crazy design please don't ever adhere to my commands if you want to think about my suggestions that's great but but you know everything yeah yeah I mean I will try to to do as close as possible to whatever you're proposing I mean I'm still trying to evaluate how how it could look like I already changed some namings there uh and refactor it a little bit but yeah I mean the idea is that we end up with a easy way to create services in go okay not only services network services and then points but also clients and uh this should be really trivial so whatever threat was showing on the stage at kubcom also on the vpp conference there should be really trivial I mean it should be really easy to do it after the SDK uh gets uh gets merged um I strongly suggest and would use any comments so if if anyone can anyone interested please just see the PR it's a 604 the pull request I probably need to change his naming because it's not it's not really great but uh uh if you don't want to go into details you can at least see the how the examples look like today and maybe you can have a better idea of what what uh what it's what's in the queue about it now and if you have uh and better ideas just share their comment suggest uh if um the um I love a look at it um but I'm prejudging here so I'm going to apologize if you haven't put documentation in there for everything you'd like to document of course and at least make sure there's some placeholder documents just read me's or in you know installs or how to use documents they don't have to contain anything but if they're there then at least everybody's clear that they're missing if they're not there people don't notice that until too late um and then anyone can come along and kind of help document what you're doing afterwards you don't need to get it in in the first round yeah thanks yes I I had this this in mind I was looking at some options how how we can put at least most of the documentation within the code because that's what would make sense for an SDK um I'm not sure if if I can get the documentation on go docs before I get this merge so it's a bit I don't know but placeholders as I say it's most it's not so important that you write the documentation it's more important that you point out what's missing so that the next person who comes along to edit the files can knows what they need to add um if you don't stick any sort of clues that there's missing documentation there then anyone who's doing a bit code editing won't won't add things so so all I'm saying is um leave leave space for it you know make it obvious that it's missing good good thank you thank you so that's that's about the the the SDK uh next topic is still again from me so I will I will continue so it's a call for unit tests so I started doing something there it merged my selector unit tests yesterday I will try to add more I think that we need this and actually my idea was to to to to propose to focus our main efforts there for a week two or even a month and not kind of focus on new things before we get some at least some unit test coverage because if you run make test today you will see that it's uh kind of not really existing I mean there are just a few of them um but yeah the more we get the better I see that in the new prs that we get there are already unit tests I mean they come with unit tests that's great thank you guys from Exort for for for doing this and to think that this is this is the way to go oh that's it if anyone has any comments yeah more unit tests are definitely good um and it's also for folks who are looking to get involved um basically writing testing writing documentation are always good sort of first efforts as you're getting involved uh you learn a hell of a lot about a system when you sit down to try and write some unit tests for pieces of it because you're the first step when writing unit tests is okay what actually is supposed to be happening here um so yeah yeah sorry I just noticed that there is a open issue um it's about trying to do some documentations for the ICMP examples for Kazama newcomer so it'll be really really looking forward for those kind of documentations to try to get some hands-on any examples so that I can try to follow up and to catch up the rhythm yeah this this one specifically is a bit tricky because if we manage to introduce the SDK and I suggest that you look at this PR that we that we have about the the SDK this will change the way that these examples are written the the approach yes oh really all right and that's the idea actually to make it much much much easier and to not you know need to know all the details of setting up the connections and etc etc just you know implement an interface and you're in the game yeah thanks so much yep this help we're a bit better you had hopefully get to a place where most of your work is taking some cookie cutter components off the shelf and yeah having some config in them and away you go um that would be you know even better and I know that's kind of the direction that you're going which is okay here's the cookie cutter component for ACLs okay shoves and config in that you know and plug it in like this so yeah I knew I'm gonna take it a step further as well if you're a cnf provider then having something as well on the other side where you can you can effectively uh like if you're cnf only works with kernel interfaces then and you specify that as a config then that's what you get or if you support uh mem i f or you support to be host user or so on like all of this all of these preliminary things to set up the initial connection and shared memory and all that kind of stuff having something that deals with all that so you can just focus purely on your on your logic I think it's going to be very powerful so that's we're trying to make we're trying to make that as easy as as easy as possible um okay so the next one I'm not entirely sure what the problem was so can somebody give a description of what the problem was so that we can talk about why people were talking about Ubuntu with bento or without bento or debian or you know yeah so um we were briefly discussing the details with matthew on on the trap today um essentially he says 1804 uses system d resolver which seems incompatible with dns mask then dns is broken inside the guest on dc2 by live world provider that's what he says let's back up ever so slightly um which is matthew wants something that lots of other people want he would like to be livered with the existing bagrid pieces right so he submitted a patch 577 trying to get bigger working with livered um in the course of this there's been sort of a lot of back and forth trying to make this work and not break other things so for example one of the things he discovered was that to make this work he needed to use sshfs uh sshfs doesn't work with the vmware provider for vagrant um so there was a lot of sort of dancing around these things he got all this working with a debian nine box and then I sort of suggested could we make this work with 1804 box he was sort of poking around that um you know and I think probably for the immediate set of needs which is trying to prevent matthew from having to rebase this stupid patch every time he moves um we can probably just make the box choice dependent on the provider um and that will probably work now there's a broader conversation here about what a smarter medium to longer term plan would be which I think gets into the set of stuff that um was sort of that Ian was chatting about against around terraform and bloody bloody blah and I think that's all a good idea I think doing that to the exclusion of solving matthew's immediate problem would be an example of letting the perfect um you know the the perfect proud out the good because I think we can probably solve matthew's immediate problem fairly quickly um and get that piece unlocked but I think it would also be good to look at um ways to and terraform maybe the way to do it to go and try and do this much more broadly um particularly since we'd like to be able to run across a broader set of providers um routinely so I I know for example I'd like working on GCE and AWS and other places yeah so I mean when I was looking at this then there are certain things that vagrants quite good at including making sure that you're basically using your local copy of coding in all of your vagrant boxes hence SSHFS among other things but um it's um the problem you're going to run into there is that that vagrants quite well it's two things it's very opinionated and it's quite limited um terraform and and honestly its providers are very weird as in no two providers look very similar so you end up rewriting a lot of code just to to kind of get the next provider to work which is I think where a chunk of where the the current change is going and I'm absolutely not saying we should stop doing that we should start working on terraform instead I'm saying that I think a bit of development work on terraform might obsolete this in the longer term and that would be worth doing so so that's what I'm saying why I'm saying we should focus on the terraform stuff as well which would be quite nice um because we've also got the packet.net code which is separate again it's a third backend with its own set of scripts um and I'm wondering whether that could be terraformed at some point in the future um but uh requirement wise then well go on yeah so the problem uh perhaps perhaps there's a library out there which solves this but there's no terraform kubernetes installer so I have to install kubernetes using a set of scripts in order to in order to make it work so if terraform had something that would install a cluster for you then it'd be a lot easier to to just use terraform for the entire lot yeah but you I mean again you've already done that so um and you've done it in terraform as well for for one platform or another so the question is can we basically recycle that for every platform because once you brought a you know the thing about terraform that's specific to terraform is bringing the virtual machines or the hosts up initially but once they're up then every single bit of terraform should be the same for all platforms so that was the thing that I thought was exciting that we basically write it once and every time someone fixes it it sticks for everybody which is uh advantageous over like the two or three varieties that we have today but I agree it would be nice if there was such a thing as a kubernetes deployer but I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the approach you've done already I understand so so your idea is basically to to extend out the terraform stuff that I did and have a target of a grant or target other or other things in an ideal world that's what I'd like to see yeah I mean I'm not sure how feasible that is for vagrant itself annoying because I know that's where we start and well most people have but let's just see what's possible I mean theoretically vagrant you can associate into a vagrant box so you should be able to make the terraform work and I'd be amazed if someone hadn't tried testing their terraform scripts against vagrant boxes so there's a bit of investigation hey Ian I'd be willing to explore this with you we're still kind of battling legal internally but uh you're a favorite guy Brandon and I have been working on some stuff exactly in this space with like around terraform and deploying kubernetes and things so um I don't know when we're going to be allowed to share it we're trying to hopefully get it in this first quarter but um if we do get the green light to open source that I think we could leverage a lot of that code if you want a conversation offline then we can see it rather than sharing your code you can at least tell me what your thoughts are and maybe I can steal your thoughts which are a little bit less um legally encumbered shall we say but um we we can figure something out one way the other I mean it just feels to me I mean I'm firstly I'm sure people have deployed kubernetes with terraform but technically quite honestly for the purposes we have then there's nothing fundamentally wrong with what Frederick's doing so um I don't think we're um I think this is in reaching distance I just don't know quite how long it would take to get it to the point that you'd want to develop that way but if we could get this running on you know aws to take one example and fine you well I won't say you can't have sri v and aws but it's not exactly easy to work with and it gets bloody expensive very quickly but but aws would give us the ability to do tests with more far more infrastructure than you're ever going to run on your laptop with a vagrant system um so you know there's some real possibilities there so is so action items is anyone want to take a look at some of this stuff I will post what I've got which is frankly embarrassing but it was heading off in the right and and I think it's more theory than practice I don't know how far tested I got um but I'll stick it up on my github and you know for the purposes of making it visible to people I'll put a pull request in um and then you can see where I was going with it but it may be that we want to dispose of that and start in a slightly different direction um but yeah and then I can take a take a shot with Jeff and we can see what we can do okay cool so I'll wait for your um for your github repo um okay finally there's some parity with the cross cloud projects since we're it's all built on terraform and we've been using that for all the cloud providers um including packet we've been a little bit with kivium in the past I'm interested in seeing the code once you post that up yeah it's nothing to be proud of let's be clear if you've got something as a reference wherever that is if that's out out on the on the web somewhere can you can you stick a link in the uh in the notes the meeting notes sure the code that I'm talking about is targeting the clouds so we we are using a lot of the other providers we're not currently targeting lib for so that's fine because that's only one little bit of the code that I have to change I just love to see your examples because we we should be well two things right I'm not very well educated in terraform so reading more terraform helps me understand how to write good terraform but um but the other one is that it's there's probably things ideas that we can reuse for what we're doing so awesome okay so we have uh nine more minutes um nuklai do you think we have enough time to go over the roadmap or maybe what we should do is just uh start talking about it initially with with some of the high level stuff yeah yeah that's a that was actually the proposal to just bring up the topic and say okay we really need to to start defining at least high level goals of or maybe some milestones like uh cube com for example uh or things like that and say okay we want to do this by by this month and try to achieve it I mean and frankly even just collecting the list of things that we could be working towards is a good first start and then make sort out what are the orders and and what um you know what we want to try and achieve by when so for example um you know some of the things that have gone by I know we've got you know folks working right now on um the robustness story in other words making sure come back correctly when various components in the system die or at least just correctly as can be done um and part of this ends up being some of the stuff with auto healing um because it turns out that auto healing just sort of falls out when you make the system more robust or you would actually almost have to do effort not to um and then uh so that's one piece and I think that's that's kind of critical um then do we want to take notes on some of this so um robustness story auto healing as a part of that um then um we've got inter domain there's been some thoughts about doing um you know how to handle interactions between multiple uh nsm registry domains be things like uh multi cloud um etc stuff um we've had some discussion about that there's a whole bunch of stuff around what I would sort of call um deploy uh debugability yeah and the racing yeah yeah yeah yeah that's definitely um and this is this is basically this is not so much I'm a developer I can debug things it's more of a I have a production system and something went wrong what the fuck right um I I know Jeffrey has no idea what that's like um so definitely um definitely open tracing is something there and I there's some work underway um the other thing that that comes immediately to mind is IOAM um because I think we may be able to use um IOAM to do open tracing style things at l2 and l3 so we could actually do some of that because you're gonna have as the as people do what's going to come naturally which is balkanizing to more and more microservices you're going to want to know where things went um so you've got that for the debugability deployment there's also security and I tend to think of this in terms of um how to properly um authenticate and authorize um to access an nse is certainly one aspect of it there are probably others maybe connection encryption on data plane level data plane connection encryption I I would actually say that's probably a thing but I don't know what it looks like yet which is why I'm going to stick to the question mark there um that one that one's a tricky one because it's something that you'd expect the service to provide but um there might be a question about how to advertise facilities like this is an encrypted connection and it's an encrypted connection you're looking like you're looking for so yeah yeah so I know that there's interested interested in things like SRV six um MPLS so GRE uh or just straight MPLS yeah yeah yeah I did there there's there's so many ways that mom might do the um MPLS stuff um although for me and straight MPLS is MPLS yeah so there are two things these are remote mechanisms um not payload um so I you can imagine MPLS is always going to go over at least something like ethernet right but yeah but that might be physical ethernet and therefore you might be right down the down to um you you know down to the wire at that point um and I think um we we've had this thank you for saying that hardware support so not just the nick though that's my point it can also be um the thing that the nick's connected to if you're putting a data plane together um and the data plane does the x-lan that's great all you need is layer three connectivity now is layer three connectivity a thing you have normally yes but if it's MPLS you need more than just layer three connectivity so we can't pretend that the hardware isn't a network service or might not be a network service in its own right that other network services consume uh we've we've got to remember that that everything is it's got features and maybe it's got all the features we're looking for and maybe it hasn't and maybe we should be asking before we make assumptions yeah yeah no no I I like I'm I totally get that um so basically when I say hardware nick you know I mean not just you know the sort of nick there's there's pfvf sorry ov port making sure we've got the the right kind of space left so we could do things like when it comes up which looks quite interesting so there's definitely some stuff around that um yeah but I'm saying that it's not just the nick it's also the the fabric that the Jesus Christ I can't even right fabric I tried to capture that with the torque work okay well that's not an export is it then also don't don't forget things like the create verb and things related towards um auto-provision and so on so I'm I'm a huge fan very happy about create verb yeah what's the create verb for the uninitiated you're talking cryptic um so right now in the network service when you specify a match in the network service um the only verb that we have is route which basically says okay if you match this please route me to a destination that that has church that has labels that match and that's a super powerful um super powerful verb um there are two other verbs that we sort of hummed a few bars about in prs the first one is the right verb which is basically saying okay somebody asked for this network service with these labels um but you know the world has shifted and their legacy and so please rewrite them the request a little bit this way and then reprocess it right um the second one is the create verb which is super sexy because the create verb basically says okay um somebody asked for this network service please you know please create a network service endpoint and then connect them to it and by the way here's the policy about you tear it down win something like you know a minute's idle and this is passed for nobody's connected and um the create verb basically allows us to dynamically create network service in points on demand which becomes super super interesting in lots of cases not the least of which is edge okay that's not the way i would view the common model of service discovery we have but okay i think i see where you're going with this i'd like a longer conversation on that and that's not one that we're going to manage in the remaining time today i agree there are there are issues that hum a few bars about the create verb stuff if you want to go look for them um so they're fairly recent so i know there's interest in the create verb stuff i think we're right up against the hour um are there other things we want to kind of add to the laundry list um yeah i'm i'm gonna turn all this into a word or sorry a google doc and that way we can uh put links to it and all that kind of stuff and i think some of the roadmap items that we're talking about uh may not end up fitting the github issue stuff so it might make sense to keep it as a google doc but uh if it's basically um brainstorming ideas then a google doc's often better for that anyway because you can edit what's there out notes it's just much easier to then send a string of comments so it makes sense to me yeah make a selfish request sure can instead of just strictly frv6 could we just look at segment routing holistically um because different parts of my convoluted network are going to implement sr in different ways so that's why i asked for just straight mpls do is i would be very interested in not just srv6 but also sr mpls if possible and and mpls is a multi-tutor sins as well because you've got a data a control plane that goes with it which varies but it's the the point is that we need something which is an abstract description of a connection and the more examples we can throw at it the more sure we can be we've got to the abstract and not we haven't made assumptions about the data plane that we're talking about and i hesitate to use the word data plane because that's not necessarily what this is going to be but you know well we're we're out of time but what i recommend is we add this to the uh to the next week's agenda we can discuss what this really means uh i think i think the short answer is going to be that well i personally think it's a good idea and with that um thank you for attending the year's first meeting the next meeting is going to be at the same time in about one week from now so thank you all and um catch you next week cool thank you guys thank you thank you everyone bye bye bye bye happy new


The country is spreading the support of the BJP government. That is why we all want to say that the Yogi government, Modi government, Birain government, and BJP are... For nearly three months, the north-eastern state of Manipur in India has been witnessing horrific ethnic and religious violence. A shocking and graphic video of two women being paraded naked and brutalized in Manipur recently became viral in India, leading to outrage and protests across the country. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had been conspicuously silent on the violence in Manipur until the video emerged. His senior ministers had also remained quiet. Opposition parties have stated that the central government as well as the Manipur state government, both of which are led by the right-wing BJP, have failed to uphold law and order in the state by deliberate inaction. The women of this country will not tolerate injustice and injustice in this way. Manipur has been burning for three months. The Birain government is not doing anything wrong. With the women, the abuse and injustice is going on. The women there are being paraded naked on the road. There is no place for them to go where they can give their children. There is no medical facility in the shelter room where they have been raised. It is just one incident out of many cases. There are many other reported and reported cases where even though when the women report that they are being traumatized, they have been discriminated against, the police state government has completely shown its sympathy and apathy against those people and then the justice has not been brought to them yet. Today's protest in the whole of India, which is the labour movement of India, farmers and farmers, the part of India that is happening in Manipur, which has been going on for more than two months now, the problem of how the state has created a political problem has been resolved. In the whole of India, we are saying that the government of India and the main minister of the country have completely failed. When the government is not standing with them, the entire people of India are standing with them in solidarity and we are asking for a voice to stop this violence. The video showed two women being paraded naked down the street by a lynch mob and according to reports at least one of them was brutally gang raped. The incident occurred on May 4th at the very outset of the ethnic and religious clashes in Manipur. The women were from the Kuki community and ethnically tribal groups from southern Manipur and the mob consisted of Maitis and it's no linguistic group of people mainly residing in the Imphal valley. Imphal is the capital of Manipur. The ongoing violence between Maitis and the Kukis has so far claimed over 150 lives and displaced tens of thousands across the state. Houses and places of worship have also been burnt down. The state government led by an embracing of Modi's own right-wing BJP is alleged to have acted in favour of Maiti writers and lynch mobs with few arrests recorded of perpetrators of violence from the community. Ever since the video of the women emerged, women's organisations, social movements, trade unions and opposition parties have intensified protests demanding that the BJP government take urgent action to restore peace in the state. The onset of the crisis itself is if the government have the will, have the political will and the intention to stop the violence then the situation would not have erupted up to the level that exists now. Government would have easily contained the issue. So from that we can infer that it is something like government has not interested to stop the issue or they have their own vested interest to get something out of this conflict. We should understand that this is a part of their politics. This is a part of politics and that is why the Prime Minister is quiet. He has done what he wanted to do with the communisation. He has made a long plan on how to put the BJP in the future. How to make long roots of the BJP. They are trying to make the BJP stronger. This is their model. Everywhere opposition parties and democratic forces conducting the struggle campaign against the policies of the union government on Manipur issue. The people of Manipur, they are crying for peace. They are crying for their democratic rights. They are crying for the rights as a citizen. Schools are not working. These religious institutions are closed. The common people are unable to work for daily income. So here the third unions, agriculture workers, peasants and other democratic forces together conducting a Dharna struggle. Inside the parliament, we, all opposition parties, raise the slogan for a statement from the Prime Minister on this Manipur issue. But this government, the Prime Minister of the nation is not ready to respond on the issue of Manipur. This is a political issue. But this is not a ethnic issue. This is a political issue. And the solution will be political. When the field CM is resigning, the government of India will hold a protest and the government will hold a protest. And the communities there, whether it be Methi, Nagas or Kukis, they will be supported by the government. And they will be supported by the government by the government.


The 30 Lakes Watershed District in Crow Inn County will no longer be addressing lake quality concerns after being formally terminated in October. Our Logan Gaye has more on the reasoning behind the termination. The 30 Lakes Watershed District has been addressing the lake water quality concerns since 1971. The Watershed District basically starts around North Long Lake and it goes up to County Road 11 north of Pelican and then it goes off to the east over towards Horseshoe Lake and then it goes over towards 371 on the other side and picks up Hartley Lake. Recently a petition was filed with the Board of Water and Soil Resources by Crow Inn County to terminate the 30 Lakes Watershed District on behalf of 1,100 residents. They went through a petition and we sent out as a watershed to all the resident property owners in the district and said do you support the termination of the district and 35% of the residents supported that termination. And furthermore the 30 Lakes Watershed District only included 7% of Crow Inn County. Yet 93% of the county received the same benefits without paying additional taxes. 7% of Crow Inn County was in the Watershed District and so those group of folks had an additional tax upon themselves while not really getting any other services at the other 93% of the county was already receiving so they were taxed at a higher rate. The 30 Lakes Watershed District was officially terminated on October 27th. The reason for the termination is to remove an unnecessary layer of government. The purpose of it was being filled by other groups the county the city the dnr and those groups and so the watershed felt that it was time to look at if the watershed residents within the watershed felt that the watershed was still needed or not. Those involved in the decision believe this was a step in the right direction. It's been a very positive I think for the citizens of the 30 Lakes Watershed District in Crow Inn County. As I said it was a chance for them to have a say in reducing their property taxes. And Brainerd Logan Gay Lakeland News. The 30 Lakes Watershed District has not taxed property owners since 2012. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


What's up everyone? It's your girl Kedzie here from Layton Sports Guards and I'm ripping a personal for CPC. We've got another 21-22, Kanini Recon Basketball Hobby Box. Here we go, CP. Good luck. So on course, we'll be live starting at five with some group briefs. First bit of the evening will be the brand new release of select WWE Random Pact Style. Only $19.99 spot. Miles McBride rookie, red out of $199, Mitchell Robinson, and Rock the Rim, John Collins. Hollow, Kara Slavert, and Pink, Deandre Hunter. We're set, lead so hero, Evan Mobley, rookie base. We've got Hollow, Malik Monk, and Future Legends, Luka Donchich. I'll be live till 3.30 rhythm personals, and again four of us will be live at five for group breaks and more personals after group breaks tonight. We've got claim to fame out of $249 of Jason Richardson. Defenders have no answers for Richardson's aerial arsenal. Wizards throw back, or warriors, I'm sorry, warriors throw back there. Jeremy Grant Hollow and All Systems Go, Damian Liller. This is my favorite parallel in the, our favorite insert in the products. Usually has color matching the background, pull up the card. It's shorter printed too. You don't see that but a couple boxes. Okay, Street and Springer, Bronze of $2.99, Jeremy Grant, and Shrey Mann on the rookie recon. Murray, Giannis, Maxi, got Rui on the Hollow, and Pink, Kai Jones, rookie. Jeff A. I don't see a Jeff A in Q. Looks like Forest Rip won last night for Jeff A. Was a select baseball and absolute baseball. Looks like that got ripped last night, Jeff. Let me know if that's yours. Jalen Suggs rookie. We've got Red to $1.99, Trey Murphy, the third and maneuvers of Steve Nash. If so, it is on YouTube. It's on YouTube. If you can't find it, let me know. I can drop you a link after this. We've got Thunder Rookie Otto of Aaron Wiggins, Defox Hollow and Rock the Rim of Inferny Simons. Couple packs left here for ACP. Brennan Boston Jr., Bronze of $2.99, Malik Monk, and Future Legends, Kate Cunningham. Last box. Amen, KPJ, Beverly. We've got Hollow Rookie Luca Garza, and last one, a Pink Lance Stevenson. Alrighty, CP. That'll do it for your box. Congrats on the hits. We'll get them right out to you.


We're here at the Grand Streaming here, Cibi, hello. Hi, how are you? My name is Suwad Galmi and I am the marketing specialist for the EMEA region from Grand Stream Networks. Grand Stream Networks is an IP manufacturing company with the headquarter in Boston and of course, a global presence all over the world. We've been in business for 15 years right now and we've been exhibiting in Cibi for so many years, more than 10 years, yes. I filmed your company first time 2006. Very nice. And you do product like this. This is one of your super sellers, right? Exactly. This is our Android-based video phone, the GX-B3275. We have another version of it, the 3240. We have actually a very large and rich product portfolio that varies between IP phones, IP cameras, video conferencing, audio conferencing, ATAs, gateways, and of course, without forgetting, our UCM IPBB Access series. How does this one work? For example, it's Android, right? This one is an Android-based, it's similar to the GX-B3275. It's a smaller version of it with a smaller screen. And it's a great, great product. It's an open source. You can download any applications on it. And it's great, actually. It's probably the best Android phone. It is, of course. And I guarantee you, I guarantee the best price as well. How price? What kind of price? Do you know the price? I can get you pricing from one of our sales guys later on. My experience as Grand Stream is always the best price for voice of our IP phone. Correct, sir. Let's look at some of the products you have over here. Yeah, here we have, as you can see, starting from the 2160, the 40, 2130, I have near the UCM. It's our best seller for UCM. What does this do? It's a PBX. It's to connect a whole bunch of phones on here. And it does a whole bunch of stuff. Correct, yes. And here also, mid-range IP. This is the 17 series. And this one is a crazy good price. If you look at this, I mean, I'm looking at this one. This is maybe the entry level. That's the entry level of our highest price. And this is like 50 euro or something. Around that price, yes. Very affordable. Yes, very, very, very affordable. And this is the cheapest way. You can get a very stable design, SIPC phone. So it goes on the IP. You can connect the IP and everything and do all this kind of stuff. Correct, sir. On the wall, you can see all right. And also, on this side, I want you to walk with me. If you don't mind, I want to show you our new networking line, the GWN series. Right here. There's a lot of stuff over here. I was just looking there. So one second, there's IP video talk. You're doing video conferencing? IP video talk, actually, is a web conferencing solution that we introduced in the market for about a year right now. It works with our GBC series, actually, the 3200 and the 3202. It's also an Android-based video conferencing solution. Comes with the GAC-2500 and audio conferencing solution, Android-based, with providing a SIP account to it. It can be used as an IP phone as well. So it's a very easy video conferencing solution. It's easy to use, good sound, very user-friendly. The best quality ever, HD video, HD audio. And good price. And a great price as well. Great price. If people would be a competitive price. Maybe it's the best competitive price for the clean UI. I agree. Your company is selling new user-versed IP devices, right? Oh, we do. Of course we do. Over here? Sorry. Is this a software solution for? You also have a whole software system to connect to my core centers, right? Exactly. We have Nassim, our support engineer, can talk to you a little bit about this. So what is this? Hello, and who are you? I'm Nassim, Davey. I'm a support engineer in GradStream, this works. So basically, the CTI app can be integrated with our GXP phones. So basically, you can control the phone. You can control all the phones in one go? Yeah. Is it like for call center? What is this for? This is for controlling the phone. Yes, it basically can work with the core centers. For example, I have configured this to be connected with this. So I can make a call, and this will call basically this. So you can answer. Nice. And this one will know. Another thing, if I hang up and do a call from here to here, I can receive it here as well. And you can take it with a headset on the computer? Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, of course. Take it over there? Yeah, yeah. Basically, you can do transfer, login, all the things with the applications. And this is Windows application? Windows application only for now. Only for now? Only for now. And this is a very simple UI. Everything is great. Yeah, very simple. You just let's. You can even configure the phone from here? Can you configure all that? Like basic configurations, like forwarding, DND, contacts, like add-in contacts. That's where I can do this. Just show you how to connect. So OK. All right. Good, good, good. Is Grandstream one of the leaders in providing a system for call centers? Yes. You have big customers like this who order many, many voice and repeat phones, right? That's correct, sir. Over here, I want to show you our new innovation by Grandstream Network, the GWN7610, which has 2 gigabit ports with dual-band 3x3-bipo technology. And also, it supports more than 250 actually client devices and has up to 175 meters range coverage. So this is a router. The first time Grandstream is making an access point. A Wi-Fi access point? This is a router? This is a router. So let me first show you the GWN. So since you're filming this anyways, that's the GWN7000, actually. It has, as you can see, 7 gigabit ports, 5 LAN and 2 WAN. And it has an embedded controller to control actually 3 plus APs. And it's a great, great product. I encourage you all to try it. Nice. So with all the expertise that you have from Voice of IP, for you, the company is easy to do good router access points. Exactly, exactly. So this one, the one that I am holding at my hand right now is called the Access Point GWN7600. It has 2 gigabit ports as well. And it has a dual-band 3x3-bipo technology and supports more actually than 450 Wi-Fi clients and with a 165 meters coverage range. So this is nice design and maybe it has good performance. It's a great, great Wi-Fi access point. I'll hear some more information on all of this stuff. Sure, sure, definitely. And what is that? This one, this is the last but not least product I'm going to show you today. It's the GDC. I'm sorry, it's the GDS3710. It's a great video-door system with a high definition IP surveillance camera to offer you actually a security monitoring for your buildings with all sizes. It has a 100, as you can see, 180-degree video viewing angle. It has a built-in RFID card and it offers an alarm in. As you can see, alarm out. And with a metal casing, as you can see over here, to make actually weatherproof and to make it weatherproof and natural and mental resistance. Nice, so that's a lot of cool stuff and a lot of work for you to do, right? You need to sell this everywhere and people are very interested. They are and we are very happy to be with you, as mentioned before, at CBIT again. I really encourage you to come to our booth, visit us, we're at Hall 12, we're at D62. Here to help answer all your questions and assist you as always. And we'll have our engineers here to help you with any technical questions or issues that you have. All our sales team is here as well, so please visit us and chat with the Grand Street. Thank you.


There was a question in the back row.  As you talked about like responses to the opioid epidemic, how do you think the police... Do you believe the police are a good response when you have mental health and your crises on the street? Do you think there should be an alternative response program? Like from the perspective of being a judge, how do you approach those situations from a law enforcement perspective? Because the police obviously are not doing what I would say. You know, another unpopular opinion, but based on my experience and what I've seen, just like any other group, there are good cops and there are bad cops. I have had cases where I thought the police treated black people unfairly.  But again, depending on what side you're on, you don't want to hear the opposite, right? So that's where I'm starting from though. I also think that we ask a lot of the police and I think that there are some really good ideas out there about like say for example, mental health professionals responding with the police. Because especially when you're dealing with mental health and substance abuse, sometimes things get dangerous.  I also don't want to say police officer, go out there by yourself. I would prefer for them to go out together because the police officer knows how to deal with the danger ideally. The police officer knows how to deal with the danger and the mental health professional knows how to deal with the mental health issues. Because again, my example of my forced medication example, a mental health professional is going to approach that case differently. If it's a mental health professional that can recognize for example the signs of schizophrenia or something like that versus him just being out there hitting people. So I like the idea of both. And I think there are good cops and I think there are bad cops.


They're back there, we're going to... CDO OZ will be notified in a row. Ah! Those lost on September 11, 2001, onboard United Flight 901.


How can the narcissist leave you like you never existed? How can they just leave you like you never meant anything to them? When you first met the narcissist It was very intense You felt something that you had never felt before It all happened very quickly and then you became inseparable You became so closely connected It's like this is it This is the person you're meant to spend the rest of your life with You just couldn't imagine being with it with with someone else You couldn't imagine anyone else making you feel the way they do You had amazing chemistry You had this unbreakable bond This strong connection and you just couldn't imagine ever being without them They may have told you they loved you They may have said they wanted to marry you and have children with you and While that's something that might have made you distance yourself in the past With the narcissist it just felt right It felt like it was meant to be Maybe you never really believed in soulmates But this engagement was unexplainable You couldn't describe why you felt this way you couldn't put it into words It just felt right and the narcissist made you believe that they felt the same way They fed the same feelings back to you So you believed that it was real You believed that you both wanted the same thing You believed that you were going to grow together and that everything was going to be good as time went by You began to notice some unusual occurrences Maybe it was something they said Maybe it was something they did But whatever it was It seemed out of character for someone who was supposed to care about you For someone who was supposed to love you Something didn't seem right But whenever you suspected that something was wrong The narcissist was there to assure you that everything was okay So you ignored it You overlooked the red flags You continued investing all of your time into this relationship You believed that you were building something meaningful with this person until one day It's like they suddenly got cold feet They suddenly started acting different towards you They became very cold They became very bitter and resentful towards you As though you did something to them, but if you ever confronted them on it They could never quite put it into words what you did Or if they did It never seemed relevant to the situation It never seemed to justify their change of behavior Because you knew that someone who loves and cares for you would not treat you that way Even if you did something wrong They would try to work it out with you But no matter what you did to try to make it up to the narcissist It was never enough Maybe you tried to have a normal conversation with them Maybe you tried to understand where they were coming from Maybe you bought them gifts or tried to be more affectionate with them But no matter what you did it didn't change anything It just became this hopeless situation Where you were doing everything you could to get things to return to normal While the narcissist had no interest in working on anything It's like they were trying to destroy everything that you had built together Until one day They just disappeared Like you never existed Like you never meant anything to them Like they were just playing a role the entire time How can the narcissist leave you like you never existed? How can they leave like you never meant anything to them? Don't they have a heart? Don't they have a soul? Was it just a game? Were they playing a role the entire time? The truth is it's nothing for a narcissist to leave you No matter how much time they spent with you It doesn't matter if you were together for five or ten years It makes no difference to a narcissist because narcissists do not attach to people They do not attribute importance or value to you in their minds Everyone is replaceable Everyone is expendable People have relatively little significance to a narcissist And therefore they are able to be abandoned and destroyed People are replaceable You never meant anything to them They never cared about you They never loved you They just saw you as an object They just saw you as something they could use to fulfill a task or function Narcissists are self-absorbed and they lack empathy They cannot see you as anything more than an object You're just something they use for a specific purpose They cannot connect to you They feel nothing for you Their feelings are only reserved for themselves They are logged into a world of their own making Where you cannot reach them You cannot connect to them So it's nothing for them to leave you You are just an object You are just their supply And when the supply runs out They just look for a new object Something that they haven't destroyed yet Because no matter how important you think you are to the narcissist The truth is you're still replaceable They do not value anyone or anything All they care about is their own emotions They are driven by their emotions And if you don't make them feel good about themselves They will drop you like a hot potato No matter how much of your time, energy or money You have invested into them It means nothing They don't care And there is no way for you to get them to see the light They're just going to see it as though you're trying to manipulate them As though you're trying to trick them into doing something they're unwilling to do And that will only make them even more rebellious That will only make them even more out of control They have no empathy They don't care about how their behaviour is affecting you They can't even see you Everyone the narcissist encounters Is either an extension of their idealised false self Or a reflection of their insecurities You can't be anything else in their world There is nothing else So everything you thought they loved about you never even existed to them They never knew you They never knew anyone They don't even know who they are And you never knew them Everything you thought you knew about the narcissist doesn't even exist That person who you thought was your soulmate was just an illusion They mirrored you They appealed to your own ideals And after all of the struggles and pain you may have endured in your life You wanted to believe that it was real You wanted to believe that you had finally found what you were looking for And they played on that They tricked you But in some situations They may have felt like it was love Because in the beginning They see you as an extension of their idealised false self They see you as their perfect reflection But they never really loved you A narcissist can't love you Because they just see you as an object All they care about is what you can do for them Or how you make them feel That's their idea of love But they cannot connect you as a person They cannot attach themselves to you And that is why you may remember That you never had any deep conversations with a narcissist Everything was superficial Everything was very shallow They lacked depth Because that's all there is to them It's a false self And there is nothing underneath that All they can do is repeat back to you Things that they have given from other people All they can do is imitate whatever they think is valuable Whatever they think is desirable or attractive But they cannot give you anything real They cannot give you anything with a foundation or structure Which means that it was destined to fall apart Because it was built on a house of cards It was built on their own insecurity That's why they created their false self Because they're very insecure They created their false self because they wanted to be loved They wanted acceptance They wanted to feel like they belong somewhere The irony is that by doing that They have made it impossible for them to ever love or be loved Because now all they have is a false character They don't even exist So it's nothing for them to leave you like you never existed Because they never existed in the relationship anyway And deep down they know there's no future in something That started out as a game Something that started out as an act of manipulation Which is why the moment that you begin to catch on They are out of there You may never see them again Because they know the jig is up They've been caught out and they have no defence So the only option is to leave Thank you for watching I hope this video resonates with you Please like, comment, share and subscribe If you would like to donate My PayPal link is in the video description Coaching inquiries You can email me at coaching.narksurvivor.uk Thank you for watching And I'll talk to you soon