You like to talk about that? When I was getting taken to hospital after the stabbing and my mum was on duty as a casualty nurse in Lewisham Hospital and she had to get taken to the side and told, look, your son's, you're going to have to come off duty if your son's coming in. He's coming in as a DOA, dead on arrival. I just broke down. Tony, how are you, brother? Good. Nice to meet you, Chris. Yes, it is. Well, it's the joys of podcasting, mate. As I get to meet some amazing people, all of whom have been just wonderful individuals. And then, mate, it's not by getting paid to chat, is it? I can think of worse things. We've been in worse situations, haven't we? Yeah, it's like, imagine a fair podcasting back when we asked how to do guard duty. We could have knocked out loads. So, yeah, as I've said to you before, mate, a lot of our audience love all things military. There's loads there we could chat about alone, but I think you and I both, in fact, as I'm rapidly learning, I almost think everyone in society suffers from some form of trauma. I think it's the nature of the society we're in that seeks to frighten us all the time, that seeks to just instill fear through the media. We've got this culture of, you know, making people feel bad about themselves through the beauty and the health magazines and the plastic surgery and this kind of thing. So I'm sort of getting my head around the fact. I think all of us, everyone has some sort of trauma, right? But I know that you, in particular, you went through quite a serious incident. I know because I was just listening to a bit of it. You like to talk about that? Absolutely. Yeah, it's a funny one because I've, I say I've spoke about it quite a bit in the past, but only, you know, after a couple of years, and if anyone's asked about it, but it was never really addressed at the time. I never sort of spoke to anyone or had any help with it afterwards. And it's only in recent times where I'm starting to feel the effects and there's no, there's no timings for these things. You know, there's no say on if it's going to happen, when it's going to happen. And yeah, it's only in recent years that it's kind of started to catch up with me. And it was only a few months back where I was, you know, talking to the wife about it, because I was preparing actually for that show with, with Jamie on the No Excuses podcast. I was just talking through things and making sure that it's clear in my head and just broke down. It was at the point where I was talking about when I was getting taken to hospital after the stabbing and my mum was on duty as a casualty nurse in Lewisham Hospital.  He's coming in as a DOA, dead on arrival. You're going to have to come off duty for obvious reasons. Talking about the stabbing, the knife entering, the fight, this, that and the other, I'm fairly okay with. But once I got to that bit and you start thinking about other people's emotions and how horrendous it must have been for them, I just broke down. And it just came from nowhere after what, you know, 20 plus years. But yeah, sorry. I'm okay talking about it. It's just that's a particular point that now kind of sticks in my head that it's quite funny. I've been okay talking about it. And there was that one incident where it was like, ah, okay, maybe, maybe there is something that needs to be addressed here. The reason I'll mention it may is it's like this, right? Everyone says to me, I wrote a book called Eating Smoke. It was my first memoir, right? It pretty much covers how after the Marines, I completely lost my mental health in Hong Kong, right? Chronically addicted crystal meth amphetamine without, you know, kicking the arse out of it. It was all the ramifications of an upset childhood were coming back. And I was having to deal with them for the first time in my life, coming out the secure environment of the military where everything's looked after for you. I'm there. I'm alone in Hong Kong. Things are starting to go wrong. I'm relying on this drug more and more to, you know, I'm thinking it's great and it's making me happy, blah, blah. But it's the same story of addiction. We've all heard many, many times, especially with veterans and ended up with my parents back in the UK being told, right, he needs to go. In fact, before that, mate, going back to the crying incident, in my head, I was so mentally unwell. I thought the command of cruel that we were taught to get across the rope across the canyon. I got it into my head that I had to crawl from my tenement building across a wire that went to the building on the opposite side of the Jaffa Road in Hong Kong, right? So I'm 70 meters above ground doing the old commando thing, right? And I stopped and I suddenly fought my brother. And I suddenly thought of like how much we loved each other, you know, he's my best mate.  Well, we're going for a massive divorce. It's what my parents have been separate about three times already. We're at a school at the other end of the country 300 miles away from our home. All the usual shit, new school, and I went to, I think, six schools, new school, new set of bullies, you've got to fight, you know, all this stuff. And it was like, no fucker's going to stop me seeing my kid brother, you know? No one. So there were steps in between the playground. I'm getting emotional now. There were steps in between the playground. My brother used to sit on one and I'd sit on the next one and it just felt, it felt better, you know? It just, everything just felt better with him now, right? So when I'm crawling across this cable, the thing that made me come to my senses, even though I was in deep in clinical psychosis, was I'm going to say, why am I doing this?  Only my kid brother, who I love more than anything else in the world, you know? And it still brings me to tears, mate, now. You know, this is 20 years ago, that powerful connection with someone, that love, that words can't just, you can't put into words, can you? You know? And just to finish the point, Tony, sorry. Yeah, no, no, no. It's just that people ask me now, this was writing, eating smoke, therapeutic. I'm like, what, regurgitating? Something that happened 20 years ago, that my mind should probably have long since forgot or compartmentalized or stowed away, you know, in some memory compartment. And then I wrote about it, and now I have to talk about it basically every single day. That's why I ask you if you're okay, talk them out because I'm constantly regurgitating that trauma, right? And I don't mind, but I do wonder if like my life should have moved on, mate, you know, whether I'm maybe not doing myself any favors just to sell a few books and, you know, have an interesting podcast. Yeah, over to you, mate. Do you've got any thoughts on that? Yeah, well, we're still, I'm still working out as you are. And I think, you know, most people are, I think everyone is really on that type of subject. I don't think anyone's got it fully figured out. I don't think it's a waste of time. There is something to be said, we've not living in the past and moving forward. But the sense that I get with what you've just said there is, you're not living in the past. You're not moving forward. You're using it to move forward, which is great because a lot of the time, the best leverage we've got to be able to get ourselves to do something to better ourselves or to change, to affect change. The best leverage we have usually is something external from ourselves. A lot of people when they struggle to change and they think to themselves, I want to change because, you know, I need to, I feel I must. And they struggle with it because they're telling themselves that that's the right thing to do. They'll be a better person. But as soon as they start thinking about someone else. So if, for example, the reason they need to change is because they're acting in a particular way that's affecting their family. And it's not a nice home environment through the way that they're dealing with things for their, you know, their wife, their husband, their children. As soon as they start thinking about other people, then that creates a bit more leverage for them to be able to move forward and say, okay, right, enough's enough. It's just strange, isn't it? Our human beings work. We've got more chance of changing the way we are if we think about how it's affecting someone else than it does ourselves, you know? So, yeah, to answer your question, I haven't got it figured out. I don't think anyone really has. But yeah, as long as it's being used as leverage for something good and for you to be moving forward and it's something that you ultimately can go to bed at night and, you know, be happy with, then it's all good in my eyes. Yeah, yeah. If that makes sense.  Mate, you're brilliant. This is all stuff. Let's be honest. I say this quite a lot. Like my parents' generation would never be having this conversation. Oh, no way.  You know, that short synopsis there, but, you know, all that was good for then didn't really help the offspring to make sense of this very complex world, which shouldn't be as complex as it is, because the rules, I know you found the simple rules to life.  Smile, do a bit of moderate exercise, eat well, be nice to people. Oh, and be grateful that we've got this beautiful chance in this amazing experiment, because it's incredible. And turn off mainstream media, folks, but let's not go there. Too much. It's too much, isn't it? You know, and I think it's quite funny. I'm a big believer in balance and, you know, everything in moderation and being balanced with stuff. And something I thought of recently is, as much as people might think that, you know, military guys, especially in, you know, in certain roles have got it quite hard because of the things that have been seen and experienced. Well, actually that's, I think, balanced out with the training, because something that just keeps rebounding around my head whenever sort of I'm having a down day, just to get perspective on things is to simplify it. And it goes back to that old saying that anyone that served in the military will know is do the basics well. You know, that's all that needs to be done. And it goes across so many different genres, doesn't it?  Not everything has to be monetized or in business terms, but, you know, success has got lots of different reasons, but anyone who's successful in whatever it may be, they do the basics, but they just do it really well. So that really helps me when it's, you know, success is going on. I've got this happening. It's like, right, forget all about that. Just what is close by me? What's the closest crocodile to the boat, if you like? What do I actually need to worry about? And just try and simplify it and then go from there. Yeah, a big believer in that. There's too many distractions in this world, but if you just try and simplify things and look at what's, what is it that I can do? You know, don't try and do things that are out of your control because let's face it, most things are out of that control, aren't they? Yes. I guess it's why limestone is, it's not a bad package limestone because everything's plant. You know, do you remember they put the, they put the training program up on the board for the next week. And you'll go out, all I ever did was take day, literally day by day, right? I'm in a fortunate position that I never considered going home ever. It was that, that for me, my home life, right? I tried that for 18 years and it wasn't very pleasant, right? I'd just go and read that orders, right? What am I doing? What am I doing? I mean, to me, it was like what we're doing today or obviously tomorrow, you know, plan a little bit ahead, right? Six mile speed march.  Just, you know, head just, it's going to hurt. Just, just pass it. And it's life's different, isn't it?  And then the housework's building up and then it's, oh, there's a problem with a car. That's going to take like half a day out of my schedule. I just, I don't really have a, but Limestone, it's just there for your next. As long as you do those things, you're going to get the end results and don't get injured on the way. I think that's what a lot of guys struggle with, isn't it?  You know, a lot of guys find that if they haven't got that structure as disciplined as the, what's the word? You know, the perception is, you know, yes, you know, it takes a lot of discipline, but there's a lot to be said with a lot of disciplined people have actually still got that support there and that guidance. And it takes quite a lot of strength and quite a lot of, I wouldn't say so much strength, but time and understanding and a bit of figuring out, you know, to sort of find your way through not having someone sort of telling you what to do, not having someone else write out the orders for you. You know, and I think a lot of guys do struggle with that when they first come out. So it's a really good point, actually. And the source of quite a few problems, I'm sure.  Something you said just to send this for the record is when I spoke to Simon Weston, he was being pushed through the hospital back in the UK and obviously severely burned and disfigured.  And Simon went, mum, it's me. And he said, he never forget, never forget that, you know, the shock on her face, that rung a bell with what you just said, Tony. Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah. Sorry, yeah, so it's not until you think about the feelings of other people, really, that it sort of starts, starts cutting you up. We're a lot easier with dealing what happens to our self. It's like us, you know. But I think it resonates a bit more once you start. So seeing what it's like to other people you love.  And then as you were walking through a shopping centre one day with your mate, his gang, as it were, had basically blockaded the shopping centre. You're there going, hang on, is this about us? Maybe, you know, what to do? And you nearly lost your life as a result of the events that unfolded. I didn't know that it was for me. So again. Sorry, I think we're breaking up there a bit. So, yeah. And as a result of this attack on you, you got stabbed several times. Yeah, that's right. So it was, yeah, nine stab wounds in one sitting. And it was, yeah, it was quite a ferocious attack. And what allowed, what aided in the guy being able to get nine stab wounds in one go is it was a sizeable gang and they'd completely surrounded me. So as punches started getting thrown, as they started, you know, attacking, and I was dealing what was coming at me from the front, you know, the guy with a knife was on my blindside. But it was one of those walking canes that had the sword where you sort of can pull out the handle and it's got the sword on it. Well, it was the curved handle. So it sort of comes like a, at a right angle. So we could hold it like a, like a gun almost. So then he was able to punch it in. So it was, you know, really, really quick stabs starting from, that's a really good question. Something I haven't thought of where did he start because it was free stab wounds to the leg on the front of the fire. It was free on the back of the leg, sort of in the arse area, sort of very close to the lower back, actually. And then free wounds up here. And, you know, I think he was high on something. One memory I've got is the look in his eyes. And it was almost just like they were black and very glassy. So afterwards I was told that, you know, most of them were high on something. So he was rolled up. I think he went out. If it wouldn't have been me, it would have been someone else. And yeah, nine stab wounds in a matter of seconds. And that was it. Lights out, fell on the floor with that amount of blood flowing out in one go. I hit the deck like a sack of bricks.   You're friend trying to talk. So yeah, we have got a slight delay here. I can hear on my roof the rain coming down. So that's probably not going to help with the signal. But yeah, unbelievable. It was sort of middish afternoon. So the shopping centre was packed with families and mums out shopping. Not just mums do shopping, by the way. It was packed with people. And yeah, so the one friend that I was with, he was dragged away. He was maced or CS'd with some kind of spray in his eyes. But he stuck around. You know, there wasn't nothing he could do. It happened so quickly. There was a lot of them. And yeah, he took my belt off and used it as a tourniquet because he didn't know that the wounds were up here. I didn't know that I had wounds up here as well. He couldn't see the wounds on the back of the leg. But you know what? He'd done his best. And I defy anyone really at that age that we were to sort of keep his level headed as he did. You know, with no training. He stuck by me.  And people have described it as a river of blood. And he stuck stuck with me and still tried to help. And the, once the ambulance crew turned up, they, you know, he must have felt so bad because one memory I've got is they sort of were really, really abrupt.  Because as soon as they saw the wounds above, you know, the general rule of thumb with, or the big rule with a tourniquet is it always goes above where the wound was or where the wound is. But he didn't see the other wounds. So they quickly took that off. And, and also very quickly saw that if we don't move this lead quickly, then, you know, we're going to lose him. Are you still in touch with that friend? Absolutely, yeah, like lifelong friends. Yeah, he was, I think he's still dealing with his own stuff with it as well because he was actually, I'm not sure if he was arrested, but he was detained. And he was interrogated quite harshly. And I've only found this out from him himself over a couple of beers, not that long ago. And I was like, wow, why didn't you tell me this before? And he was interrogated quite harshly. They, you know, they were trying to, they had to cover all bases and they didn't know. Like the police didn't know what, what the score was.  You know, what was your involvement? It must have been horrendous for him. Jesus, yeah. But yeah, still very good friend. And the lads that actually stuck the knife in, did he get prosecuted? No. No, the, the CCTV camera, it was all caught on CCTV. I think, but a picture was too grainy. They couldn't make their faces out. So they did manage to track down who'd done it. And they did go to court. They did end up with a day in court, but it got thrown out of court because the CCTV was blurry. There, there it is. They, you know, just, I hope to God that he didn't end up, you know, doing something similar to someone else or worse. Yeah, of course.  Yeah, from as far back as I can remember, the, you know, joining the military where it was just something that was almost like a calling. I was kind of pushed towards the Marines because once my parents sort of saw, right, okay, it looks like we've got one of those cases because my first words were military related, you know, just any toys, any clothes, everything had to be military. And it wasn't going away. You know, it, it, it followed me right the way through into my teenage years. So once, once my parents had realized what they had on their hands, they were like, right, okay, so we're going to have no choice in this. He's going to join the military. That's trying sort of, you know, steering in the direction rightfully or wrongfully. I don't know. But in a way, I'm glad they did. And it was what they, the seed that they'd sowed was, if you're going to join the military, go for the Marines. And the powers all love this. They said, you know, go for the Marines because they're the best. So if you're going to do it, be the best. And that just, that just stuck in my head. So the Marines, it was, you're the opposite of me. I would, I never thought about them. Well, I did as I started to realize I failed all my exams at school. And then I joined up for a bet. My mate, my mate bet me I couldn't join the Marines.  Brilliant, brilliant.  Yeah, it was, well, you know, it's a bit of an angry young man. I was not, I don't mean like aggressive, but just, you know, things hadn't been good. And I didn't appreciate him telling me what I couldn't, what I couldn't do. And he just passed the PRC or the PRMC as it is now. And he did make it sound quite wonderful, I have to say, or quite, quite adventurous. Yes. Yeah, he was, I don't want to say the guy's name, but he, he was, he was on his PRMC with a guy called John Scott, who then went on to, to, to go SB. And just listening to these two bullied up on the PRMC. And from what it just sounds like they both smashed it, you know, and I listened to him telling this story and, and yeah, my mind started thinking then, yeah, I could picture myself doing this. I could do 50 push-ups. I can do the pull-ups. I'm not sure about the running because it wasn't something I'd done. And then you start reading the recruitment brochures, and your picture in yourself as one of these guys. I wrote, when I think like that tone, it gives me the same feeling as, as you know, when I was 17, I just get that feeling again, like I'm excited and, and I can see something here. But how, how long after this attack then, did you join? How long did it take you to recover? How did they keep you alive in the hospital? So in the hospital, it was, I was in the hospital for quite a while. I died three times on the operating table. As soon as they got me into casualty, and it's quite vivid memories you know, I was still awake. A little bit lightheaded from the loss of blood. They had to put a chest drain in. I can remember the nurse or the doctor, the consultant, whoever it was working on me, had said, we haven't got time for local anaesthetic. And he explained to me the procedure for the chest drain. And I can vividly remember thinking, why are you telling me? Just get on with it. He basically said, look, we've got to put a chest drain in because your lungs collapsed. So it's going to help, you know, help you breathe. We've got to make an incision in between your ribs here. And I'll have to widen it a little bit with my little finger. And then we'll put the drain, the tubing. I was like fine, just get it. At that point, I must have known, you know, I was kind of a piece with it. So I can remember not having any fear at all. It really didn't bother me because I thought, well, there's nothing to be worried about. Because if they don't do what they need to do, that's it. You know, I'm gone. I must have felt that I only had minutes left. Because sure enough, as soon as the chest drain went in, I died for the first time. And then it goes to accounts from other people that was there, my older brother, my mum who came in. My mum was holding it together a bit. I can remember, but she was crying, but she was holding it together. When my brother came in, my older brother, he was uncontrollably crying, bless you. They come in freeze. I'm waiting for the third one, they come in freeze apparently. You don't get this on the Joe Rogan podcast. But then he was uncontrollably crying. He could hardly talk. And looking back on it now, you kind of put the pieces together. And my mum had told him, you need to go in there because it's very likely the last time that you're going to be able to see him. And that's the last thing I remember. And then going to my body was convulsing off of the table. So that was me crashing. And that was me dying for the first time. And at a rate of knots, they willed me out of the room to theatre where they operated on me because the lung was punctuated, the knife had scratched my heart on the way in. Plus obviously I had nine holes on me that they had to attend to. And I died for over the two times on the new key. I was in ICU for quite a while as well. We paused a bit, mate. Just thinking of the other questions. So that happened in the length of time that it took to recover and if I had any help afterwards. I didn't have any help afterwards at all. There was no psychological help. It took me, well I tell you what, I'm still recovering now. The physical injuries probably took about six months. Once I'd learned to walk on the leg again, because there was quite extensive nerve damage as well that was caused. And that was one battle. But like I mentioned earlier, because I didn't have any help with it, it's actually now starting to perfect me more than it did back then. So yeah, I'm still recovering to be honest with you. What was the other question? Well, it doesn't matter too much this fascinating stuff you're telling me here, mate. I mean, once you've experienced trauma, especially at a young age, it kind of stays with you, doesn't it? You then develop the strategies to manage it. You know, even when I'm like doing a podcast, there's stuff in my head I'm having to manage because chemicals start flowing.  Right. Our connection here, Tony, keeps freezing. I don't know if you're seeing this. Do I seem okay? Oh, one second. Sorry, friends at home, we're having a bit of a technical glitch. So yeah, what I was trying to say is trauma is something I think it stays with you. And then as you go through life, you then develop the strategies to kind of deal with it. And where were you living, Tony? Am I detecting like a London accent? Oh, frozen again. Oh, hang on your back. Yeah, yeah. So from London, you're frozen again. Yeah, I think I might need to switch my router on and off. Okay, one sec. So again, for our friends at home, just a quick recap, because we've had a technical glitch, and I'm not sure what you got and what you didn't. And I'll leave this to my producer, Ben, to sort out. Thank you, Ben. So Tony and I were just saying that Tony was saying he's come into terms, you know, he's having to deal with the post traumatic stress of his attack.  But what we do is we develop the strategies to deal with it so it doesn't affect our life in a constant downward sort of spiral. And then I was asking you, Tony, where you lived because the incident you described, and we're a similar age, I'm guessing I'm probably a bit older than you, because I'm older than everybody these days. But where I live, we had a lot of dust ups, we had the football gang that they could do pretty vicious stuff, right, but they were like a one off, it was the TCE Implim of the central element, right. You rumor was a slash people up with razor bays and stuff, it wasn't very nice.  So yeah, that's why that's why I asked where you lived, where this thing took place. Yeah, so London, South London, and it was in in Lewisham, and Lewisham shopping centre. And it was Lewisham hospital I was taken to. Lewisham hospital was where I was born as well funding. I don't think that really means anything. But yeah, it's quite, you know, is that far from Bromley, do you know? Not far, not far. Yeah, Bromley's 15, 20 minute, well, depending on traffic. Yeah, that's where that's where I was born. Okay, so you are from from South East London. It's just we left when I was about four, I think, so I've only got kind of, I remember one time in Bromley, I decided to put oil on the wheels of my tricycle, right, this is how young I was. So I went in the garage and I got a can of petrol out. And I poured this petrol all over my tricycle, right, I'm three years old.  If you want to traumatize a three year old child, tell them the emergency services are on their way to speak to them, right? Yes. So yes, hello, hello, everyone in Bromley and Lewisham.  I'm sure it does. And I'm sure it does because it, you know, it can't, it can't be easy. Um, it's really weird, isn't it? Because, you know, I, and this isn't in a bravado way at all. It's quite strange, but I'm in a way, I'm glad that I was on that side of it. If that makes sense, it's really weird. It's not as much heartache than, you know, thinking about what's happened to yourself.  It must have been horrendous. They arrested my dad because of his background. So he's, my dad's a former professional fighter. And he had a bit of a checkered past. He got into a bit of the wrong crowd. And before, before I came along, his boxing career was cut short. He got into the wrong crowd. It was a bit of a name for himself in South London. And he ended up being quite known to the police.  So as soon as my dad got to the hospital, they actually arrested him or detained him and said to him, look, it's for your own good, you know, because you're going to do something silly and for the, for the safety of other people, because we know that you're going to go on the war path. So again, yeah, it must have been horrendous for, for everyone all round, really. I don't feel, do you know what? It must have been horrendous for the guy that done it as well, because no one gets born with a knife in their hand. You know, what sort of life had he had? What was his experiences? You know, what caused him to get to such a point? The, because he was 20, I think he was 20, 21 years old. I was 15 years old at the time.  So that kind of helps me sort of in recent, in recent life, if you like, because you can't just get angry about it. And it's, it's actually answering a question that someone put out there on from the last podcast that I'd done with Jamie. And someone had said, oh yeah, I'd love to see an episode two, or for Tony to sort of, you know, have another podcast and speak to someone else to find out if he caught up with the bastards that done it. Well, I'd be lying if I'd say there wasn't a time where my mind was in that place. But I can assure you now, the, the place that my mind's at with, with that, in particular, is, is not of hate. If, if anything, it's of, of, of sorrow. Because everyone's got their own story. And no one gets born evil, I don't think. And it's all to do with, you know, the chances and the opportunities that you have in life. So I can't imagine things were, were good for that lead to be able to end up in that state. Yes. Massive part of moving forward is developing empathy, isn't it, to understand situations for what they actually are, not what we perceive they are. And the old school mentality is no, you've got to hate that guy for life.  Well, when you understand karma, I reckon Tony, you know, are not somewhat karma the way people use it.  Or so you know, that, that's not the way karma works. Karma means if you don't get a good balance in your life, you're constantly going to have experiences that, you know, it's like I've done so many things in my life. Where I thought I was looking for happiness or doing the right thing or whatever it might be. And of course, that's why my life's always been so up and down is I tell a little story of a fight I had if that's okay. So on one of my parents numerous, I think they'd finally got divorced. I was living in a place in Cornwall. But my school was in Devon. And all the kids in my village, they went to the local school in Cornwall, right is comprehensive now. So we're about 13 or 14. And every day our, our bus would get in, we had to get the local bus home because the, you know, all the kids went to the other school. There's about five of us that would come in on this local bus, just as the school bus from the other school came in. And one day, we got off the bus.    I'm like, no, no one talks to me like that, you know. And the one guy shush, we'll see you tonight. I'm like, okay. So fast forward to that evening. It was about six o'clock. We're on our estate. And it didn't help that our estate was a new estate, right? It wasn't Rich House or anything, but it was a new estate. And all these kids came from the council estate up, like at the top of the village, right? And down a come mate, it was like a mob. It was like something out of like the film Grease or something like, you know, the gangs. Right. And the big odd lad fortunately had the decency, let's say, to like stay out of it and just let us to fight. This guy come down the road, right.  Bang, I just, I hit him as hard as I could, Tony, right. And I wasn't a fighter. I'd never I'd done a bit of judo, which I was quite good at at school for a year. But I wasn't a boxer or anything. I didn't like look forward to fighting. But I knew I had to. We were toe to toe. And that was it.  And then then he went, right, whoa, stop, stop.  So he took his jacket off and he give it to this big odd, odd geezer. He went, right, okay. And then he hit me, right. And so I hit him back.  But give the guy credit, he fought back as hard as I fought. He fought. Neither of us were backing down. But the funny thing was he's like, right, stop.  To someone in the crowd, right, because this is crowd of our kids all were like behind me and their kids were, but some of the crowd went, is he going to take all his clothes off? Brilliant. In his head, he's probably using is an excuse. This is why I'm not winning. I've still got clothes on.  So he's like, take a bit of clothing off. But anyway, cut long story short, at the end, the fight, the fight just went out on me, mate. You know, you feel it when it just, it just dropped out of you. And fortunately at that stage, a neighbor came out and went, what are you boys doing? Stop it now. Right. And back in those days, we used to listen to adult or kids listen to adults, right? It was like, and the guy like shoved his hand down and went, yeah, that's cool. You know, should we stop it there or whatever? And I'm like, yeah, all right. Anyway, fast forward.  You know, we've been mates to this day. Every time I see him, we have to go through the protocol of him apologizing to me. Chris, I'm really sorry, mate. I'm really sorry. Ian, if you ever get a chance to watch this, hello, mate. And he's a lovely bloke, right? And I'm just saying it to highlight, we all change, don't we? You know, we all change. We're all a product of our environment, our circumstance. And as you said, Tony, until we understand it for what it is, rather than what we think it is, we can't move forward ourselves, can we? No, no, exactly. And I do hope that if he's still out there that he's changed his ways, you know, it could quite easily have been me who went down that path. You know, my reaction to the stabbing afterwards could have been like, well, you know, that's how I need to be then. I need to, you know, start stabbing people before I get stabbed again.  You'll either end up hating bullies or you'll become a bully yourself because the majority of bullies were actually bullied quite a bit themselves, which again has calmed me down. That thought and empathy and just, you know, looking at it a little bit deeper has also helped calm me down before when looking at a bully or seeing someone being bullied and instantly getting angry. You kind of, I kind of then get calmed down with the thought of, well, hold on a minute, there's a very good chance that they were bullied to such an extent themselves when they were younger to actually cause them to be a bully. So it kind of shifts from anger to then actually feeling, you know, sorry for the person and is it too late? Can they be helped? You know, first and foremost, it needs to stop. Don't get me wrong.  Not at all. You know, stop it hard now. And if they need to be sort of, you know, have a hard line taken to them, then so be it. But there's definitely more to it, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is the irony of when we were young at school, is the kid that was brought out in front of the class and spanked in front of the class, ironically, like he's the lad that has to go on to a bloody broken family, the father that's on the drink or whatever, and he's not getting a love at home. And this manifests in the child's behavior, doesn't it? Because, you know, what it just, it just does. It's probably another conversation again. And yeah, and all this knowledge, Tony, it's been hidden from us for years, which is why I love these chats, you know.  It might surprise people to know that, you know, I didn't get hugged as a kid. I mum occasionally, dad once, right? I had to instigate that in my family after I, let's use the word recovered, or after I came through my experience of chronic addiction, and I started to do what we're discussing now, which is put the jigsaw together, think about other people. Why was my childhood the way it was? What did these people have to go through in their lives in order that they behave that way? Oh my God, they're suffering trauma, aren't they? I'd never thought of that before, right? Because things were always just so black and white, and yeah, sorry, I lost my train of thought, but yeah, my son, I don't mind to show him all my folks, which I do. It's a perfect example. Yeah, I want him to know what I mentioned, you know, you are that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because you could have gone one way or the other. My wife, for example, was abused as a child. She had a really, really tough childhood, and she's the most loving person, annoyingly so, because if ever I'm having a bit of a down time, or I'm a bit grumpy, she's so good at staying calm and being nice, and it's like, oh, stop being nice, I want to be angry, but she's the most loving person to a fault, and so much love to give, and like you say, you know, where some people might be embarrassed to show their love, and to kiss their kids, and it's just not there, it's not on a radar, she's got no issues with showing her love, and she could quite easily have gone the other way. Yeah, very much so. In that respect, society's becoming a better place. There's not so many kind of false taboos and this sort of, oh, hang on, hang on a second, stuff's happening. That's the very first time something's popped up over Zoom, I'm not, not, not quite sure what's going on there. Old men in technology, eh? You've got me, you still hear me. Yeah, I can hear you, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I've still got you loud and clear. Good, good, something's going on today with our technology, but hey ho, this is the world we're moving into. We've got some bad weather spread over the country at the moment, everywhere, so I'm sure that's, that's not helping. Yeah, that's ironic, isn't it, that Marines are supposed to be good at dealing with bad weather, and yet it's fucked us both now.  Let's move on then and talk about when were you at Limpstone, Tom? I was at Limpstone early 2000. Wow, so 12 years after I was. Yeah, so I was fed, I joined up quite late, so there was a bit of a gap, because after the stabbing, and I try not to make it such a focal point, if you like, but at the end of the day, it is, it is sort of one of those main points that you refer to as you look through your life. So I was 15 when that happened, and I shouldn't really feel way about referring to it, because it was, it did have a big effect, because it wasn't addressed, I didn't have any help afterwards, but it was horrendous trying to get my head around sort of how to be afterwards. I was scared to go out the house, I was scared to be around people, I was constantly thinking I was going to get stabbed again if I was in a crowd, on a bus with people sitting behind me. So yeah, it's difficult not to refer to it, but I was 15 at the time, and I didn't join the military until I was sort of in my early to mid-20s. So there was quite a bit of a gap there, I did go off the rails, there was substance abuse involved in that, you know, in a city, getting up to the wrong staff, in with the wrong crowds, so you know me going back to saying I could have gone one way or the other, I did actually, you know, I did very nearly, well not nearly, but I did kind of go that way, but luckily not to the extent where something really stupid happened, if that makes sense, you know, I come to the realization that I need to get a grip and sort of, you know, there's more, there's more to this than just running around the streets causing havoc, and so I applied myself and eventually put in for marine training. Wow, so the year 2000, that's when training got really, really easy, isn't it? Yeah, apparently when they held their hands all the way through. Sorry, I had to get that in there. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Yeah, yeah, there was, I think it's even, I was just before it had a big change again, because I was, before the time, I think they put an extra two weeks on to teach GPS training and so on and so forth, because things were really gearing up for Afghan, so it was becoming more operational specific, they were throwing a few more things in, but yeah, it's even in my time, you know, it's quite different now what I hear, so it's what it was even in my time. Yeah, it's a forever changing landscape. Now they've changed, this is just a learning thing for all of us, especially at the youngsters listening that want to join the Marines, it used to be 99% need not apply, right, you know, because only the 1% are born with it, right, or brought up to have that mindset. Now it's something like 99% need to apply and we'll make you into that 1%, right, you know, this is advertising promotion, isn't it, they've cleverly changed it now to up their recruitment numbers, now actually anyone can apply, you know. Yeah, everyone can do it. Yes, it is an age-old argument, isn't it, does training get easier harder and well, it's, yeah, maybe subject for another day and going to upset someone if we talk about that. It's a big subject, isn't it, yeah, and like you say, a virgin on political. Yes, how did you find limestone then, what was it like to rock up, did they call it induction when you were there or was it called foundation? I think foundation or, do you know what, I can't even remember, I think it was foundation, foundation block, yeah, I think it was foundation. I just found out yesterday on a podcast with a wonderful chap called Rich Jones, ex-tanky, he was in prison and he said, yeah, when I was in induction, I said, you were in induction in prison, I said, I was induction in the military, what does that tell us? Yeah, well, I suppose it's all about conditioning and getting ready, you know, the first steps to getting ready to what's to come, I suppose, and being shown what's expected of you and then sort of build on it. Did you find training, I would say easy because I don't think anyone finds it easy, but some get through it less unscathed than others, right? I think what helped me was being a little bit older and having some life experiences, I'm sure that that did help. I'm not sure if the 16 year old Tony would have done as good as the 20 year old Tony. It certainly does help when you need to dig deep and you can sort of pull on, you've got more to draw on, I think.  Not to say that I didn't have that as well, but I certainly certainly had a leg up, I think, we've been a little bit older. Yeah, I've said this quite a lot, mate, is I struggle with the speed marching. That was the only thing I really struggled with in training and I never failed any because I just wouldn't give up, right? But they hurt, right? One time I got ordered into the rat wagon because I had I developed shin splints and I was grimacing so much that the corporal went full, getting a rat wagon. I was like, all right, corporal, when he turned around, I just kept running with the troop. I just, I went to the back of the troop and I kept running at the back. When he turned the second time and saw I'd ignored his order, he wasn't very happy. So I had to get in a wagon then, right? But other than that, I used to just hang in there and it was freaking the hardest thing I've ever, ever done. And yet at 50 years old, I did a quadruple Ironman and, you know, ran the length of the country. And it was okay, I did get a shin splint running the length of the country, but it didn't stop me. And I just remember it, it's so much easier at this age, you know, the mindset is there. I'm a big believer in the want as well, if it's something that you want to do. And I touched on it when I was talking to Jamie on the no excuse podcast. And if it's something that you truly want to do, then you'll find a way. You'll find something, you know, as you're digging down to search for whatever it is you need to find to keep you going on, you will find something, your brain will give you something, you know, because you have that perception of this is what I want and I can do it. And it's not just us, you know, we're not super humans, we're not overly special than anyone else. It's just that want. So say a doctor with the years of training and how intensive that is, you know, five years with all of that written work, the long hours on doing the placements in the hospital as you're training as a doctor. It's because they, those that make it is because they want to do it. So for me, that's such a big thing, because anyone who genuinely wants to do something, but it's a bit worried if they should or not, or if they not, if they should, if they could, if they can, you know, I really want to do this, but I'm just not sure if I'm going to be able to. Well, actually, all you need really is the want. If you want to do something, then you can do it.  And it's rightfully or wrongfully, we could end up with loads of comments, you know, against that. But one of the biggest things that sticks in my mind is the reason I've been able to do the things that I've done throughout my life, whether it be Marines, whether it be the SPS, whether it be being able to come up with a new business with a unique product. You know, I wanted to do them. I wanted to join the Marines. I wanted to be a special forces operator, and I wanted to have my own business. It just so happened to end up being a, you know, a unique product, an idea that I had. But it's all things that I wanted to do. You know, and it's just, it's just doing them, really. Yeah. Well, let's talk about your special forces. One is the biggest thing. Yeah, let's talk about your special forces route. Because that's a very brave thing. Brave probably isn't the right word, but you really have to want to do that. I mean, it's not this, you can't half-ass around and join the special forces. It doesn't work like that. You, you've got to know that when you hit that selection, you've got the goods and you've done the training and you can read them out. And obviously, the majority of people still fall by the wayside. So I've just got a huge amount of respect for people that can be that young and have that mindset. How old were you when you decided, how long did you do in the core before you went SB or as a Marine, I should say? About two and a half years, which again is, really does reinforce the point that I was making with the want. Before I joined the Marines, SB was the way that I wanted to go. And I kind of said to myself that, okay, if I joined the Marines, it will be for the ultimate goal of going SF and as quickly as I can. I had no real interest of staying in the Marines. So really from day one, the goal was to go SB. So I think what helped me was ignorance and not being fully educated in what it may entail because I installed the want so firmly that it was stronger, that passion to want to do it was stronger than anything I found out afterwards. So once I did start really finding out what it entailed with, how switched on you have to be when you're tired, how much rope you're actually given to hang yourself. You don't get the motivation. You have actually really got to be able to do the things that's asked of you. And yeah, the passion for wanting to do that was so great by that time that none of that really sort of phased me as such. But I wasn't clouded to it. I wasn't blind to it. I still fully realized that this is serious and I seriously have to get better at navigation and whatever else it is that I could do to make sure that I'm as prepared as possible. And that really sort of manifested itself once I got to 4-2. So I was based at 4-2 out of Limbston. And I had to hold myself back from telling people and telling the other lads that look, my aim is to not be here. It's to be here for a short amount of time as possible because I want to go SF. Because anyone that I did tell, I'd get laughed at.  I'd get told I was unrealistic. I'd get told that I was a bit of a bullshitter. People are like, wait, can you hear him? He's only been in five minutes and he's already talking about SF. Because predominantly, you have to have five, six, seven years experience. They generally wanted someone with combat experience as well. I know that it changed quite regularly over the years. They would change their requirement depending on what was happening and how they had to recruit. But generally, it was you needed a certain amount of experience before flying. So when the Sergeant Major was constantly trying to get me to go six because he had to get his quota up, I kept saying, no, sorry, SF is the way that I want to go.  It's six you want, isn't it? No, I don't want. I was constantly getting, but I annoyed them enough that they eventually said, you know what, it's yours to lose then. And they loaded me on on the briefing course, which is the first thing you have to pass before getting loaded onto selection. And that was just after two years of being in the unit. I was effectively a Siby still, really. Had you been on operations by this time? No. Wow. Again, it was all driven by passion. So they could see on the briefing course, Jesus Christ, this is an absolute ball of fire. And that's why we're going to load you on selection. Be aware that if it wasn't for that, you wouldn't be because you haven't got enough experience. You've only been in for a couple of years. You've got no operational experience. But we can see that you want this so much and that you are serious. They could see it in my eyes that I got loaded onto selection. The other thing that really motivated me was Sergeant Major said, on one condition, I'm going to load you on the briefing course on one condition. But if you fail it, I'm drafting you to Scotland. Bear in mind, we just moved from London to the married quarters in Plymouth. So we were kind of loving life because Plymouth compared to London was beautiful. You've got all the moors and the countryside almost. It was beautiful. So I was like, wow, that's motivation. I do not want to have to move my family up to Scotland where I'm probably going to end up doing some kind of guard duty for most of the time that I'm there. Went home, explained that to my wife, and she said, okay, well, I'm going to put one up on that. If you don't pass and you get drafted to Scotland, I'm not coming with you. So I thought, Jesus Christ, it's all to play for. But you know what? It didn't fail. I thought, I'm going to put that to the back of my head. I really want this. So the best chance I've got of succeeding is to just keep my mind on the fact that this is what I want. And the one thing that did worry me was injury. You know, I knew that it was never really going to be an issue with me thinking, I can't do this and I want to give up. So yeah, it was injury, but I was lucky. I didn't have any major injuries at all. Did you do the joint SASSBS section? Yeah, so it was joint selection. And, you know, some of the best soldiers that I've ever worked with were from the parachute regiment and various other army regiments. For that, it's absolutely fantastic, because there was kind of equal amounts of marines to army lads. And yeah, it was joint selection. And if it's a joint selection, Tony, how do they incorporate the diving bit in it or the swimming bit? Are they interested in that? Or is that put aside? Well, that's continuation training. So once you pass selection, so you've got your phases of selection, which is the hills phase, then onto the jungle, resistance to interrogation, escape and evasion, then do a bit of continuation training still with the Hereford lads, because you then get badged at the end. If you're lucky enough to pass after the escape and evasion and resistance to interrogation phase, you then get badged. You've then got to do a period afterwards of continuation training, where you go up to Hereford, you do all of your close quarter battles, you seek to be training in the Killing House. Hereford, because of their budget, we even had an ex-Olympian, an ex-Olympic sharpshooter who taught us handgun skills on the range, so on and so forth. You're still together at that point, plus all of the car drills, where they've got to drive on range, where you can actually drive onto the range and practice doing your car drills if you come up to an illegal VCP and you've got to start, you know, get out the car, start shooting at the threat and pull back. So you're still together at that point. Once you've done that, you then go your separate ways.  So that's then when the diving takes place for the pool lads and whatever continuation training it is that they do at Hereford, whether it be the skydiving and so on and so forth. Yeah, the reason I mention it is I don't, I used to know a little bit about how selection was for SB before they amalgamated the two, right? A friend of mine, Steve, everyone will know, if I say SB, everyone will know who I'm on about. We're in Belfast together and he, I think he joined SB twice actually and was also an ML in the middle of it. And I remember him saying he didn't get on with diving, right? And it seems a lot of expense to put someone all the way through the selection and the jungle and escape and evasion only to find out the end of it that maybe, you know, they've got claustrophobia or underwater or something or they can't get on with a breathing. If that happens, do they keep the guy but he just does another role or are you out of there? There's actually, no, not at all. No, you're still used, absolutely.  For me myself, I was a non-diver. I ended up being a non-diver because we've Afghan kicking off as soon as I got to the squadron. We were still supposed to be on continuation training and dive course being one of those. There was a couple of us that got picked to not go on dive course because we needed to go straight out to Afghan for manpower issues and to bolster up the squadrons with injuries and deaths. And I was one of those guys. So I pretty much went straight out to Afghan from selection, which was quite tough. I'm going to guess the other guy was Steven Burns, wasn't it? Yeah, you get this question guys. Second? I was going to say we got a bit of a freezing going on. I'm just going to talk through it. The other guy would have been Steven Burns because Steve's been on the podcast and when I said to him how did he get on with diving, he said I didn't do it Chris. And I was I was gobsmacked. An SBS guy that didn't bring those his ears. Was that what it was? Yeah, he said he went just yeah and that's one of probably it's probably one of the biggest reasons I think. I don't know the numbers or or the statistics behind it, but just thinking of the amount of guys that I know that didn't do or didn't complete the dive course because of perforated eardrums because of the pressure. I get a sense that that's one of the big reasons. So really probably from the start of the SBS you know the start of its life from way back in 1940s. They've probably been used to still having guys on that are non-divers because let's face it, the job roles the SB have done alongside Hereford are fairly similar. It's just a method of insertion whereas the actual conflicts themselves you know we do the same stuff as far as the job roles concerned. It's just historically it's different methods of insertion.  But in recent conflicts for example say Afghan it's a level playing field you know there was no coming in from the water. And the RAF regiment would come in from the naffy. Oh it's like I've been in worse restaurants, I've been in worse civic restaurants than some of the RAF naffys. Yes, yes.  Yeah.  So it's nothing for them to have a huge a huge food budget as well. Yeah massive massive budget but just very quickly going back to to Stevie Burns. Stevie Burns was on my side I went through selection with Stevie. Absolutely great guy, top top guys. He's doing some some some great stuff at the moment as well as an E. So yeah that was nice to hear his name. Yeah he did say he dragged you through. I think it's all thanks to him. I was I was behind him, he was he was dragging me through that's right. Yes. So Stevie Burns for people listening was the founder of Spartan Operation Spartan which is a wonderful support group. You can find it on Facebook or just put it into a search engine and it's not just for military service it's for the blue light services as well and they do some really good stuff and it's also a bunch of kind of similar minded people that have found themselves struggling as as many of us have and they they support each other and they're all gonna they're all started running haven't they and they're all eating a better diet now and they're taking action with their lives and it's it's all good stuff to see so shout out to Steve. Absolutely one of the most genuine people I know I don't talk to him as much as I'd like to to be honest with you but he's if you're ever in trouble he's certainly someone that you'd want in your corner for sure. Tony give us an idea for us marines how much harder is the legendary physical side of selection so the hill work and all this kind of stuff can you kind of give me an idea because obviously I've done the 30 miler I've done the nine miler 12 mile low carry or what all these things that we used to do is it is it like harder than that is it the same is it is it is it different. It's such a good question and I think it's going to vary massively through the individual because a lot of it is it's psychological and the I would say I've had tougher times in the marines than I did on selection because I was more mentally prepared for selection. To try and give an example I think of the hill at the end of the day it's it's a hard course so I think you would you know what it would would be like yeah you would you definitely would have had just as tougher times with stuff you've done in the marines like you say with the commando course at the end that week of having to do those tests back to back accommodating in that 30 miler there's no getting away from it you know it's extremely cheeky extremely hard work and I think the hills I think what what makes it more especially tough is and different from from marine training is you haven't got someone there giving you encouragement you haven't got you know a fantastic team of corpals and a sergeant you know as in a training team like you have going through marine training giving you the support or or beasting depending on what training team you had but at the end of the day whether it be you know support or or or shouting whatever it was it was still someone there either saying get the fuck up and keep going or come on you can do it whatever it might be it's still something you're still getting something that's urging you to to carry on you don't have that you know and certainly through the hills phase if you find yourself halfway through the hills or one of the marches or halfway through the hills phase sorry so you're already knackered after a couple of weeks and halfway through one of the marches in the middle of bloody nowhere again you really have to draw on is this what I want because you'll take your bergen off you'll sit on your bergen just to catch your breath and you will be thinking you will be thinking Jesus Christ is this what I want and so that's what makes it tough not so much the physical side of it yeah it is pretty much you know you have to want to do it but on steroids because you've got no one there to to say come on you can do this and that's what makes it tough yeah got you summed it up perfectly and what was it um what was it like then to get out to Afghanistan I I was shit scared I was shit scared um I've got to be careful what I say because there were yeah there were things in in place that that that should have happened really and did kind of change after um after after my first tour but effectively when when I landed in Afghan and I I still wasn't sure what I was doing and and again that kind of overrides the fear of I mean war you know I'm in afghan and that that I didn't have time to really think about that because I was so preoccupied in thinking about am I going to fuck up and be a liability to the other guys and that's that's what made it difficult to me so I was absolutely shitting myself and and you know I'll be perfectly honest and it might be surprising for people people to to hear it but um I was worried about my confidence you know am I ready I've passed selection but that's all it is it's a selection course and I didn't have and I think that's why they want people to have that certain amount of experience before going on selection because I found it extremely extremely tough and it did end up taking its toll because and I was just constantly constantly worried and if if I was going to be able to produce the goods and sure enough obviously you know you get the experience and it all all ends up coming good but um yeah that that first time was was horrendous and I was on my own as well because I I went to go fill up the numbers from injuries and deaths that happened in the current squadron that was out there um it was as I was walking past the two I see's office in Z squadron in the squadron that I joined um and the two I see at the time was like ah Tony come back I was like how about going to ref again it was like yeah well yeah of course yeah so it wasn't like deploying with your buddies you know as a group and you've done all of the build-up training this that and the other it was like right you know your right man right place or wrong man well right man wrong place wherever you want to look at it you know first come first served do you want to go to afghan you need to make up the numbers they're getting smashed at the moment did they give you a private jet I wouldn't have wanted to have got off it yeah see that that's the thing right when we rocked up in belfast and things went bang over there quite a lot when we were there right but we were all ready for it right because the build-up was so bloody good in fact the problem was the build-up so good so for our friends at home you go to a village in in kent um they got a whole mock-up of a of a of a town a town there they get civilian they get people from other military units to come and act as civilians so they're all like you know gobbin off and all this stuff in mock irish accents and you go out and patrol every day and depending on what phase of the training you're at people might open up on you from a building you've got to take cover you you you we call it brick commander so your team commander's got to get on the on the radio report contact casualties yes or no while taking charge of the team every time you stop you do a five meter check so you're looking for ids or you're looking for hidden weapons all this sort of stuff the problem was when we got uh and you do your your team will be contacted you turn around and the guys look you know your your oppo is lying on the floor and there's a referee there that goes he's been shot sucking chess wounds this kind of stuff right you've got to deal with that while under fire and all this stuff and then there's day to day kind of admin stuff like stopping the players right excuse me sir can I have a word or excuse me you know joseph or whatever here a minute mate you know checking the id for where you off to today okay right but i've basically given the players our time it was or interrupting their their network and the problem was when we got out to bell fast Tony it was all quiet for for the first couple of weeks anyway right and then you're like oh what was all that training for nothing's happening you know yes you were stopping people and doing your five meter checks and and you know covering your arcs and zigzagging as you as you patrolled down the street but nothing happened but when when it did start going bang and we and we started to get contacts just immediately take cover it just went into the drill and it was it was so surreal that it was so much like what would have been trained to do right although you can never train perfectly so did you have any build up before you went or were you just like right your your badge now off you go well I suppose there's all you've always got the build up and to a certain extent through through selection and you really do get to all the core basics of how you conduct business in in an SF squadron you know with with the way that you break contacts and you know the way that you engage whether it be contact front left right behind you know so there is that there working in within the small teams and all of your CQB training as well so you do have that there you know straight out of the box you are a highly trained soldier within the context of working in you know an SF team so so that that was there it's I think what makes it difficult with not having or missing out on pre-deployment training like I did on my first tour because it it was so fast and furious because it it was at that the heyday of what was going on in in afghan and we were losing guys and they did have to you know find guys from the other squadrons that weren't deployed to afghan to to go out and make the numbers up and it just so happens that generally that would be from someone who's already been in the service for for x amount of years you know it's just finding someone who's available and it was just it just so happens that that person was me and and I was just out of the box and I hadn't had PDT detrain so the difference that makes is just the small nuances on on how that team works and the the big thing for me was the vehicle drills so that was completely new to me so going straight out behind enemy lines working on the vehicles and actually driving one of them I found myself in the driving seat I had done the course by the way but I hadn't because I hadn't done PDT training with that particular squadron I didn't know exactly how to break contact drills were going to go with the vehicles I'd never done it so I it's it was a massive massive stress of having to learn on the job and asking questions whilst I was behind enemy lines and whilst I was driving that vehicle you know if we get contacted what are they going to do in front what are they going to do behind where do I need to place myself the most horrendous experience I've ever had because again it's not the fear of something happening it's the fear of failure it's the fear of ballsing up and other people getting hurt because of your incompetence even though it wasn't my fault it was still such a stress but yeah it's it's it does it does make a a massive difference because my second tour was was so much I'll not use the word enjoyable that's completely the wrong word it was more comfortable because I did go through the the full process you know of you know being with my own squadron for starters you know the guys that I was used to that I'd worked with full PDT training we knew the ins and outs of of of how each other worked and what we would do depending on what what what would happen and it was a lot more comfortable in that respect you know you you could you could almost sort of be again not look forward to it but it was one less thing on your mind you know it then freed you up to be able to you know think about and other more important things if that makes sense it makes perfect sense I think probably anybody listening can relate it to something that they do in their lives because once you've learned it all when you you know it inside out then you can relax and enjoy then can't you you know just be it's like writing when I used to write books I had to stop every three minutes get a search engine out and type right what is what's a semicolon ah right and I'd have to do that 30 times before I actually in my heart knew what a semicolon does right you know um when do I put an introductory comma right read that read a book did now I can just write right I can just edit I can punctuate I can do all that I also understand the bits that I can fuck up and they don't matter right so there should be a comma there but I don't have to put it no one's ever gonna no one's ever gonna write to me go Chris why was that comma not there it's no one 99.8 percent of people and not even going to know that that was actually an issue you know um so yeah I think we can all relate to that I mean it's like a professional footballer isn't it when they get that good their training is on the pitch it's that it's the match they play on the Saturday and then they can not even train in the next Saturday bang that you know the fitness is up there skills are up there and they can just perform perform perform whereas when you must join a football team you're like oh god on the FNG I'm the fucking new guy I don't I don't want to fuck this up for everybody. So I had that say it was almost two-fold you know three-fold even so I had that new guy element on that first tour and then on top of that not doing having the chance to do PDT training so yeah it was it was horrendous it was so it was quite weird because obviously I had the buzz of I'm actually here now you know you're doing the job that you've been trained for you're actually now you know you really are a sharp end of it all so it was kind of a bit of mixed emotions but I do want to make clear that um I don't this isn't you know a smoke towards the SBS at all at the end of the day it was at the heyday of afghan guys were dying and I was trained I was a trained rank you know I was a badged rank and they did very quickly afterwards not because of me but it did come into place quite quickly that no one would deploy unless they'd done PDT training so even someone who was going to sort of make up the numbers and replace someone who's been injured or killed they would still have to do a form of PDT training so so yeah it's it was just the times it was very desperate times with what was going on um with with all of the fighting and at the end of the day if I couldn't learn quickly I wouldn't have got into the squadrons anyway so you know it was it was just a bit a little bit harder for me because I had to really learn on the job was best better they sent you out there than my bloody sister or something I'm sure I'm sure you were the best man for the job um and by PDT I'm guessing we mean pre-deployment training for for our uh for our armchair warriors out there um how is it then Tony when you got into your team there and and obviously we don't say names or anything like that and this isn't bad mouth in anyone but it's like as a sprog in the Marines when you get into your troop or your set or troops broken down into four three or four sections you could end up with some right angry bastard corporal you know and if he didn't like you on day one because basically he had an alcohol problem and he was angry all the time he made your life a freaking misery right or or it might be a lance corporal that thinks he's a bit of a guy you know and he's creeping up to the corporal and they they decide that you're the you know that this you see this happen a lot you know all you all you get the guy he's done one Norway and he thinks he's that makes him Captain America right the guy I'm thinking I'll just go around with a pick out threatening all the new new you know threatening to stove their heads in with a pick out this this is a recurring theme in some of my dits right I guess what I'm trying to say is you've very much got put in your place when you got to your unit right you know you learn who you could fight and who you shouldn't fight because they're just going to beat the shit out you you learn who you could gob off to who you could have a quiet word with if you needed to and don't get me wrong for people listening 90 95 percent of the guys with very very nice men you know really really good good people but that don't help you if that if you're lumbered with one of the five percent so taking this to SF Tony are you welcome like an equal professional or is there any kind of hierarchy this sort of thing oh are we frozen again hang on oh we're unfrozen did you hear that mate sorry I got bits of it yeah we've we froze up a little bit again yeah I was just sort of saying when you get into your SF team are you treated like a brother well I mean you know you're all brothers but is it like you've done the training you you're you're an equal professional or can you get some idiots in there you always do I think you know you'll find that in any walk of life in any industry and any job and you know nothing is impervious nothing is perfect and and you will always have characters you'll you'll always have different personalities to varying degrees um I I think it comes down to specifics doesn't it so you've got what I think you might be talking about with people slipping through the net in regards to having those traits that you wouldn't expect to find in something because as high performing as an SF squadron like a bit of a a bit of a bully a bully trait or someone who you know can't sort of move forward and continue to sort of innovate themselves if you like so they they're sort of stuck in their way and and they'll try to have that same sort of mentality that you might find in the army or some of the marine units you do still get that you do still get that but the other aspect of it is that you've got certain personalities that you can run into that you would never be friends with they're not particularly nice people and not many I'm I'm I'm thinking of just one or two people and again I am generalising I'm also thinking of other industries and and work work experiences that I've had but um when it comes down to professionalism that's hop class and you would want them in your corner if there's ever a problem with something so it's yeah it's it's an interesting question yet yes you you still do get certain people that would be like you described a bit of a bully and still think that they're you know God's gift and that they try to sort of throw their weights around luckily with something that's as close in it as SF squadrons they kind of don't last that long or they'll end up realising themselves and change their ways because you know everyone else is like who the fuck's that um so yeah I didn't that was one of the the lures from me to go SF or one of the things that that really sort of spurred me on so to want to go to SF is that it is more grown up in that way um your and just by the very nature of the selection course and and how tough it is it kind of as good as it can weeds out those type of people so it is only those that are 100% genuine you know those that really really want to be there and and really do take professionalism and doing the job seriously not to say that other places aren't within the army and the navy the marines are certain the other not at all but it is what it is it's something where you do have to be that bit better you know and so predominantly it's it's a good place to be if um you know because let's face it you know you you're only really going to go for something like that for for certain reasons aren't you and I'd have been very disappointed if I'd have got there and and then realized that it was like a bunch of mums outside of primary school and and then all the the niggering and having to deal with bullying no not at all it's a high performing environment and but of course you do get people to slip through the net yes SF or not SF at the end of the day we're all human beings aren't we and you know the yeah people will be how people will be unfortunately yeah I was just trying it was that wasn't a reference to like my situation I'm just wondering how they would have been in the in their unit and and you you you hear certain things let's say and ah anyway enough about that shit um can we just before we talk about your company Tony so your fitness apparatus company is is for our friends at home wondering what I'm talking about not military company um can you tell us like did you have any big fire fights so over there or did or what was it like to be involved in your your first one or or were things quite quiet no they they they weren't quiet so it was it was during that busy period of when things were kicking off in in afghan um for as you'll appreciate for obvious reasons I'm not gonna you know go go into um massive detail about anything that's all really but um really sort of keeping it high level and generalized the the the first contact that I was in um I absolutely shits my pants um stuff started coming back and this is looking back on it now um things started coming back to me from the stabbing incident and this goes back to what I was talking about with where I really should have had help with that as a as a 15 year old boy because once the once the rounds started flying and cordons were getting contacted as well so you know there was contacts all all around where where I was I thought we were surrounded and I was having flashbacks of of being stabbed you know and that I'm going to be having them all come from all directions I had to massively get a grip on myself and obviously ended up did you know professionalism goes through plus with the lads you bring yourself to your senses but yeah everyone would probably remember their first contact for various different reasons that's my reason I absolutely shat myself I had flashbacks of being stabbed um and then on top of that that made it all the more memorable is the batteries in my mvgs died and that wasn't through bad admin we were still on the old mvgs just prior to the new ones coming in the new um out there out one alpha the peck not the peck to the um the gen two alphas I can't remember the name I'm terrible names that's my brain going mushy but anyway the new start of mvgs the upgraded mvgs hadn't yet come in and so we were still on the old mvgs they they were they were great for you know they served their purpose um but they were getting on a bit and some of them were you know a bit temperamental so you can imagine just as we're stacking up so I'll paint the picture er compound stacking up there's heavy fire coming from the alleyway that that we were stacking up about to go round into the alleyway and person in front of me he's gone around we're all moving it's go go go mvgs cut out completely blind the only thing that was illuminating what was in front of me was the sparks of the bullets coming off of the the side of the um the walls in in the corridor in in in the alleyway and that sort of illuminated it enough uh and sure enough with a couple of bangs and twiddling things they they came back on again but horrendous my first contact you should put should have put your head torch on get me mag light out whoa hold on a minute I can't see anything yes wow gosh yeah we the so people for people at home mvgs night vision goggles obviously although most young people who play call of duty they they don't know military stuff than I do yeah although I will tell you boltcropers won't cut through us to that padlock on the people know what I'm talking about it's not that easy folks honestly you're better to chop through the fence than you are to chop through an industrial padlock yeah yeah yeah um the joys of video game they may yeah Tony let me just pop a some pause I'm just going to go in that punch a clown so welcome back yeah went out to punch a clown had to take on the whole circus yes so how's business mate things are looking up on gabrin yeah things are looking up it's um it's a tough road it's uh it's taking its time you know I think it's tough for anyone not specifically just talking about what's happening at the moment because it's tough for everyone isn't it with the situation extremely tough um it has slowed things up a bit you know it's someone said to me it's a fitness device they must be flying off the shelves um well it's it's not as easy as that because the stage that we're at um you know it's you end up having supply of issues as well because of the the pandemic um and yeah it does slow slow things up a bit but it it is selling we're we're teamed up with um uh Battle Ready 360 um with Olly Ollerton and Jason Fox Foxy so we're teamed up with their company at the moment Battle Ready 360 and it's exclusively being sold on their platform at the moment so um yeah it's limited stock you know it's first come first served it's being sold separately on the BR360 online shop um and it's being sold as part of a package is it like a bundle deal where you can buy the battle ready box which has got various different bits of fitness equipment in it all in a box and plus the the SF1 trainer as well so yeah it's going in the right direction but there's still there's still a bit of a way to go it is still a new a new business um we're we're really excited about how it can grow with you know further innovation on the product itself other products and services to come in the future so yeah it's it's all looking good yeah what great endorsement from Olly and Foxy then eh doesn't get doesn't come back than that does it it doesn't may it really yeah over the moon with it and it's it's one of those things the the product speaks for itself and you know you you could have the best product in the world but if it's not marketing in the right way and no one sees it then it may not sell um that you know I'm under no illusions of course that that is what it is it it's just a fact but we are really really lucky that it is um a great product that can't you know the reason why I mentioned that is because so many people say the product to sell itself will actually no the product doesn't sell itself but what you do have is if you have got a product that is genuinely good quality and a good product along with a decent bit of marketing and a bit of luck as well um you know it it can go a long way yes and how did how how did it come up come about Tony you've got your original there on the on the right yeah so I should explain really so this is just one side of the product here's the other side so it is a suspension trainer and if you imagine a TRX you can hang it up on a pull-up bar on um like on a goalpost or a suitable tree branch it's an established industry there's lots of people out there with a suspension trainer that's of a TRX type fashion or whether it be Olympic rings um so the the application of suspension trainers is is fairly quite well known now so we're not reinventing the wheel in that way what we're doing is you know something that can do what's already out there but not just in a different way but but better if you like um I wouldn't put TRX down fantastic product really really well made brilliant story behind it with Randy Hettrick the the ex-Navy Seal guy um and it it it does what it does it's a brilliant brilliant product what ours does is actually sort of build on that so as you can see here with with the three handles by pressing the buttons on on the side it just moves down the strap it's a one-way cam system to move it up you just pull it up if you're not touching the buttons it automatically locks wow the version that's getting sold at the moment is just the four handled version so there's just two handles on each side um theoretically you can buy as many handles as you want and even come up with kind of a ladder system um but three is the optimum so we'll eventually we will sell a two-handled version which is just one hand on each strap a two-handled version a four-handled version which is being sold now and then the top tier product will be the six-handled version which is three handles on one strap like it is here so once you've hung it up chris it's minimal to zero adjustments that you need to actually do full circuit training on a suspension trainer without having to touch it because you can move the handles to where you want them so you can have the low handles to jump into press ups the middle handle to jump into mid-height exercises whether it be dips or you know upright rows whatever it is you want to do and then the high handles to even do pull ups or to hang off the leg raises and it's down to your imagination really one of the things that found when doing the the research for it and also one of the reasons why the idea came about was the the the pain that it was to have to constantly adjust whether it be the rings or the trx so if you imagine if you had the rings up quite high so that you could do your your dip exercises pull-ups whatever it might be if you then wanted to do press ups or have the rings lower for for whatever reason you'd have to actually get up quite high to then adjust the anchor point to lower it down yeah well if you want to do a circuit it's going to piss you off the same with the trx you've got that single anchor point where you're constantly raising and lowering the handles but this completely eliminates that so you literally hang it up come up with whatever exercises or circuit that you want and then you can crack on now if you've only got the two handled version so just one of these handles on each side even though you're going to be adjusting constantly because it's at the point of the handle and right there it's just slipping the handles up and down each time so as far as the user friendliness of its concerned it's it's fantastic so that's where we are at the moment there's other ideas there's other attachments that's going to be coming out but that's where we are with with how the product is now you asked about where the idea originally came from this is it here it's an old piece of deck rope with an old plastic hollow plastic handle and and that is what sort of birthed the idea if you like well that's where the idea was born that turned it into to this got you and it was through this necessity I found myself on maritime operations during the old antipiracy stuff and it was another four-month transit away in the Indian Ocean and usually one of the team would have rings or TRX or something like that because you know these type of training devices are brilliant for if you've got very limited space and you can still get the maximum amount of training out of a minimum amount of space so I found myself on a deployment where no one had bought one and I was being lazy and a bit cheap with not buying something for yourself but anyway I found myself away with with no suspension trainer and I was really getting into it so I thought you know what it can't be that difficult at the end of the day rings or a TRX is just a strap or a rope with a handle on so I decided to make my own which was easy enough a bit of rope tie the handle in where I'd tied I don't know if you can see that where I'd put the rope through the handles I had to tie not each side so they obviously didn't just slip down so it caused as it was hung up it caused these two bits of rope to just be hanging down because I just wanted to use it for for dips so I do pull-ups and then jump into suspended dips because it was helping me get over a plateau but then I thought ah hold on a minute looking down at these bits of rope that were just hanging to the floor I thought if I'd tie a knot in the bottom and that's just sort of just hanging off of the floor I can then do pull-ups jump down into dips and then jump instantly down into suspended press-ups so I took myself through a little circuit of you know like 10 pull-ups 10 dips 10 press-ups bit of a rest and back through again done went through that five times stood back it gave me such a pump and such a feeling of a good workout I thought that's a better workout than I've ever had on using the TRX or using the rings and then that's what started the the cogs worrying because I thought right there might be something in this if I've had a better workout with a bit of rope and a plastic handle and I've ever read on any other product there could be something here so as I started thinking more and more I thought right I've got to be serious about this because I can't pattern a rope a bit of deck rope and a plastic handle there's nothing there to pattern and my head hurts thinking about it now I don't know how it was literally a moment of madness if you call it I don't know I dare I say genius but the idea came up with the idea for the handles to move and which of course is highly patternable and we are granted in the UK and pattern granted in the US as well so the playing field has been laid or the ground has been laid and it's ready for us to start running on it how long does it take to get the pattern then to get it you know to get it passed quite a few years so for us it it took between about three years maybe just three years yeah yeah quite a bit of money and quite a bit of time were you worried in that time that somebody else might not you know bring out the same idea extremely worried but you know you you just try and stick to the advice you get you try and stick to you know the process that you feel is right it very much was difficult at times in regards to we really want to try and get this out there and test the market but because it's not protected you know how how do we go about that because someone else and you see it all of the time and history is is peppered with accounts of bigger businesses seeing a good idea and these big businesses they can do what we've done over the past four or five years with the prototype development I don't know if you can see them there that yes the journey the different prototypes that we had to have made up you know look at the state of that wow you know it's so the different the different prototype iterations that we had to go through until we until we finally got it right took time and money and but the we kind of had to figure out the the balance of sort of paralysis paralysis by analysis you know not not overthinking it too much and not holding ourselves back but at the same time you have got to be careful because sort of getting back to the point I was making is for a big established company what took us a couple of years going for all of that prototype and they can do in months yeah of course did you did you have to keep it a secret then until you got the pattern yeah I got bored of asking people to sign NDAs and it even got to the point where I asked one of the business advisors you know do do we actually need to keep doing this because it is becoming quite embarrassing and strangely enough a lot of people are actually quite adverse to it and they're like oh well I don't actually want to deal with you then if I've got to sign NDA this up well at the end of the day we've got a unique product that we're looking to pattern you know all it does is protect from you stealing the idea so actually it didn't bother me too much because I thought well if you don't want to sign an NDA you're not you know someone I want to be speaking to anyway but once we found the way of getting the funds to file the pattern when the pattern is actually going through its pending phase you're worldwide protected it your protection only drops out if you if it doesn't sort of get granted the pattern but yeah so all the way through its pending stage you're you are protected from from the time that you file it but it doesn't stop all your people all your stationary in your packaging has got a change from perhaps pending to patented at some point to to granted yeah yeah but luckily we're still at the stage where we haven't got you know a massive amount of of marketing or you know assets behind us in in that way and we are still very much growing and so yeah we're we're we're we're that's not going to be too much of a headache to be honest yeah good stuff good stuff well listen Tony we'll put links to where people can buy your product right the trainer yeah yeah absolutely br br 360 about ready 360 and the sf1 strength is obviously you know a good place to go to to find out more there's promotional videos on there to give you a sense of of what the kit is and what it can do that's a facebook page isn't it sf1 strength yeah facebook and instagram okay and then sf1strength.com is our landing page where you can plum in your email and we'll you know you'll get updates there is an apology actually that i want to put out to those that have already put in their email on the sf1 strength website we've we are having technical issues at the moment we've sending out the the welcome email to say thank you for signing up and hopefully you know that's going to be sorted out within the coming weeks but it's still it still works in way of being able to put your details in so i would still say if you want to to to find out more and be updated when there's new innovations when there's other products coming out then yeah please go to sf1strength.com and and put your details in at least it's just email tony listen you've been absolutely amazing mate thank you so much for sharing your story thanks for having me yeah and mate give us a bow any time i'm still wondering if you got the right bloke um i i just want to say though you know you can call me any time mate if you want anyone to chat to about anything and i know i can do that with you and so to our to our um friends out there don't struggle in silence reach out and um you know the future is bright you know the future is bright and uh yes so tony just stay on the line so thank thank you properly but but massive thank you again i wish you all the luck um with your venture and in life to all our friends at home massive love to you all take care thank you for tuning in if you can like and subscribe and do all that kind of stuff it's going to help us and uh we'll see you next time