As being requested, and by the FAO, it's my great pleasure today to give a presentation about the Vietnam One Community One Product Program. The content of my presentation is really four parts. The first is the introduction of Vietnam All-Cop Program. The second is a reroute of All-Cop Program in Vietnam over the last couple of years. The third is a lesson and future challenge, and the fourth is a proposal of Vietnam. The third is a introduction of Vietnam All-Cop Program. The All-Cop Program of Vietnam is based on the experience of Japan One Village One Product, or you call it OVLP, and also the Thailand All-Top Program and other country experiences. Since 2013, some provinces of Vietnam has implemented the One Community One Product Program with some positive outcome, contributing to rural development and improving the living standard in rural areas. With that experience, in 2018, the government of Vietnam decided to implement the All-Cop Program for the period of 2018 and 2020 nationwide, so we scanned it up from the experience for some provinces to the nationwide. These are some characteristics of the All-Cop Program of Vietnam. The All-Cop Program of Vietnam focused on the development of the local specialised products at village and communal level with the main objective. The first objective is to increase the rural income and create more jobs locally. Second is to promote human resources, and very important is to preserve the diversified culture. We consider the All-Cop Program is a rural economic development program, the work promoting internet resources, which include the rural wisdom, creativity, labour, raw materials and local culture, etc., to increase added value for rural specialised products and contribute to new rural development programs of Vietnam. The targeted All-Cop producers are small and medium enterprises, co-operative and household. The Vietnam All-Cop product includes six product groups. The first is food. The second group is beverage. The next one is a herb product. The next is textile and dressing ware. The fifth group is decoration and handicraft. And the sixth, the last one, is a community-based tourism. So you could see that the sixth product group includes some physical products, but also includes a community-based tourism. The proposed Vietnam All-Cop program, the program of All-Cop of Vietnam tries to increase all-corp producers to fully utilize the potential of land products and other competitive advantages to raise the product value, increase income and contribute to improve living standards in rural areas. We also try to reorganize the production system through the whole value chain approach with glow linkage to draw material production areas. We also increase applied higher quality standard for local specialised products with new and modern technology. And also the All-Cop program Vietnam to promote the start-up and creativity in rural areas. So the All-Cop program in Vietnam has been implemented over the last three years. So we have some initial achievement of the program in Vietnam. The All-Cop program in Vietnam has been implemented in all over 63 provinces of Vietnam and that's becoming a priority solution to rural economic development. At the moment, we have 4,847 of our products have been erected by government agencies to achieve three-star and higher, like four or five-star, among which food products account for more than 80% and handicraft products account for 10%, other with just 10%. So you see Vietnam have a six-product group, then food products account for more than 80%. At the moment, 2,655 all-cop producers of wood, co-operative and small and medium enterprises account for 65.5%. So 37.5% of all-cop producers are co-operative, 27.6% were SME and remaining including co-operative group and household. At the moment, more than two-thirds of existing all-cop producers have achieved a higher sales revenue with every increase of 17.6% per year. So it's very, very positive outcome from the All-Cop program over the last three years. The All-Cop program had also contributed to job creation, especially we are very delighted to say that enhancing the role of women and ethnic minority, around 39% of all-cop rarist owners are women, about 35% of all-cop products are from the ethnic minority area. So they are very special numbers. In over the last three years, from 2018 to 2020 periods, the Vietnam has mobilized nearly 1 billion US dollars to demand all-cop program of which the government budget account for very small part of only 2.7%. The credit contribute to 76.6% and investment capital of all-cop producers account for 16.5%. So you could see that the mobilization of resources mostly coming from the credit sources and the investment of the all-cop producers. And over the last three years, we mobilized more than 1 billion US dollars to invest in the all-cop program. So with only three years of implementation, we also draw some lessons learned from the Vietnam experiences. The first Vietnam All-Cop targeted a village and community level specialized product for small and medium enterprise and also COVID-19 to promote the development of unique and specialized product. The program is implemented nationwide with the involvement of all four levels of the government, the central government, the provincial government, the district government, and the community government to getting a spin-off effect in the community, promote the local spirit, responsibility, and increase the capacity of all-cop producers combined with local advantage like a local wisdom, community spirit, and diversify culture. So you could see that for the all-cop program in Vietnam, we involve all the four levels of the government through the implementation. The program focuses on improve the product quality and market accessibility in order to meet the consumer demand for unique traditional quality products and also to make it more accessible. This first, the all-cop program of Vietnam focused on the 100 million population domestic market, later on with improved quality, we expand to the international market. So all-cop of Vietnam also develop all-cop product along with the culture dissemination, utilize the internet value at advantage to promote and introduce the local regional and national culture. With some of the lessons learned, we're also facing some challenges to go ahead. The first challenge is how to strengthen the innovation, creation capacity, product development, especially to develop a new product and how to improve the quality of product further. One of that is how to make a locally specialized product to meet the demand and test of the modern consumer. The second challenge is how to support all-cop producers through such program like green, all-cop, fair change, with special focus on mountainous remote and ethnic minority in order to have the small-scale all-cop product to be able to compete with the large-scale market production. You could see that the experience of Vietnam, we focus on small-scale production, a specialized product, but how it compete especially in terms of price, in terms of cost, with a large-scale market production. The next challenge is how to promote Vietnam all-cop to become an international recognized brand and to achieve sustainable development looking for the future. So at the moment, we have finished the first phase of the all-cop program in Vietnam from 2018 to 2020. And now we are preparing for the next phase, five years, 2021 to 2025, made on the previous successful approach. The new all-cop program for the next five years, 2021 to 2025, will unexpectedly add some new direction as following. The first is develop a standard for and foster the green all-cop product towards a circular economy and export market, like I just mentioned, how it contribute to sustainable development of the local area. So we will looking to create more green all-cop product towards a circular economy. The next one is apply digital transformation to promoting small and medium production to increase the processing and marketing of all-cop product towards a higher quality and more value added product in the market. So you see that the digital transformation now become very important that we had to have the all-cop producer to apply the digital transformation to the whole chain of making and marketing the all-cop product. We also want to expand and we also want to introduce the Vietnamese diversify culture. So with that challenge and lesson learned from Vietnam, today we are very pleased to be able to be invited and talk about Vietnam experience and also with the help of the initiative for FAL for green all-cop in the future. So with that, we make some proposal. You know that Vietnam has already proposed the initiative of promoting the network for Asian children product development on the one village, one product model, which was approved by AMAP in 2020. Based on that, we would like to ask FAL to support and work with ASEAN countries including Vietnam to implement the initiative of promoting the network for Asian children product development based on the one village, one product model. In that, in that lesson, we would like to ask FAL will chair, co-chair and promote anyone all-cop product development forum in order to exchange and share experiences among countries. We know that around the world, many countries have also experimented or implemented as a all-top or all-VOP model. So we would like to continue to chair, co-chair and promote the anyone all-cop product development forum. The second regarding the initiative of green all-cop development, as I mentioned previously in my presentation, Vietnam already have direction to go ahead with the green all-cop development. That's why we also ask for would like to see FAL will chair, co-chair and coordinate with other countries including Vietnam to research and develop the international green all-cop criteria which is widely recognized by countries in production and trade. And we also would like to propose FAL to accompany and support resources and techniques for countries including Vietnam to experiment and organize green all-cop development from which we can draw lessons and expand further in other countries and regions. So that's all for my presentation. Thank you for listening.


Hey, this is Maryleigh Johnson with the 21 convention. We're here with Edward Druse and you gave your 2014 speech. And we want to tell the people a little bit about what you were talking about. So you first started talking about the importance of a mentor. Yes. How much do you think that helps? Maybe time-wise, like on a 10-year trajectory, how much faster would a mentor help me get there? I think it certainly depends on what area you're looking at. If it's business, I think it's... I really see mentorship as a lifelong process. So it's not the case that in 10 years, you'll have three times as much done as the person next to you who doesn't have a mentor, but that it's that you're looking to constantly get in someone's slipstream. And from there, they're able to keep bringing you up and you'll keep excelling and continuing up on that level. So it's not the case that I think you can play out comparisons to say if I had a mentor, I'd be here. If I didn't have a mentor, I'd be here. But always having one and surrounding yourself with people who are far more able and who inspire you and who you want to live up to, I think it's a great way to just drive you further. Is there a specific difference between friend that you have and an official mentor, or is everyone a mentor? I try, and something I mentioned briefly in the talk, get away from the idea of an official mentor. People have the idea of waking up and getting, they hear the word mentor and they think of a real life Mr. Miyagi, someone who's completely and utterly devoted to their success, someone who's gonna tell them what to eat, what to wear, what to do. And that's not really what I'm getting at with the talk. The idea of a mentor for me, and specifically with this talk, is someone that you can align yourself with in working for. And so it's really proximity without the label. So with that in mind, I think there are many different types of mentors. There are mentors in the way that you can have friends, you can have mutually beneficial mentors. So if you excel in one area and you have someone else who is excelling in another area, you can be mutually beneficial. I just had a quick word with Sasha before coming over here, and he said, I need a mentor in business.  And then from there, you have something to offer them, they have something to offer you. That's good. So it's not just a one-way street. You're not just saying, please, teach me everything you know. No, absolutely not. I mean, if you can find that person who can, amazing, but it's very often going to be something that you take little bits from someone here, little bits from someone here. Fantastic. And if you have any advice for our viewers who are sometimes much younger, but sometimes much older in their business, if they're wanting to start a business, where do they start? Well, for me, it's the missing piece of the jigsaw, I think, from going and having a sense of, I want to do something entrepreneurial, to actually being able to go out and do it, is become a linchpin of someone else who's doing it, become a linchpin of another organization. So for the last five years, I've been working with Matthew Hussie. And in that time, I've just had an incredible schooling and it's been the learning experience of a lifetime. So I think at least in my trajectory and my path, the idea of getting around someone who's five, six, seven, eight years ahead of you, and just learning and sucking up everything you can from that person is really a tremendous way to go. Wow. That's all super fantastic information. I think I'm going to take some of that and try and do some of that and maybe work for a little while and work on that and maybe get a mentor of my own. Oh, very cool. So if people want to find you, where do they go? EdwardDruce.com. That's the place to check me out. It's my blog, so yeah, that would be the place. Thanks guys. We're here with the 21 Convention, here with Edward Druse and we'll see you next time. Bye. Thank you guys.


We come to a place where we talk too much, we speak too much and we don't demonstrate. But Paul said I did not come to you in excellence, your speech. But I came in the demonstration of the power of God. The Bible say if God is for you, who can be against you? If God is for you, who can be against you? Okay. You who can be against yu mahalo nga kwa kwa birum lady stress kwa griz kwa kwa lira nga lira rikaitudes me kwa kwa rika kwa pinil kwa han kwa kwa lira kwa han rika kwa pisha wo kMarti 2. Amen? Hallelujah. You're my friend. Stand up, my friend. Yes, yes, yes. What's your name? Jim. Tmuti. Turn around. That's it. It's over. The storm is over. The storm is over. na. I don't know you, you don't know me. But when I looked at you, God gave me an open vision of Jesus. The year 2000, 2006, 935 in the morning, the temperature was 45 degrees. It's cold. You went through a devastation. It was February the second on a Thursday. February the second on a Thursday. And you went through this thing. And this thing is still lingering. You're still going through. The enemy is coming against your financing. Anytime you are bad to get close to your blessing. The enemy blows it. But I hear the word of the Lord. The enemy whom you see today, you shall see no more.  God is causing prosperity. You bless in the house of the Lord. Somebody God bless the Lord. Hallelujah. I feel the glory of God here man. Stand up.  What is your name? The glory of God, the presence of God, the power of God is upon you. You are walking, you are walking the season of blessing and favor. Many are called but few are chosen.  You are wonderful and fearful made. You see when she was in the womb, when about four months the enemy tried to destroy her. But I hear the word of the Lord. She's special and the hand of the Lord is upon her. And God is going to use her. God is going to bless her. And she alive. She is going to be an ester to her generation. Be blessed. Hallelujah. Thank you Jesus. Thank you Jesus. Thank you Jesus. The glory of God is here and God wants to do it. Say I want you to stand up. What is your name? Jim, I heard the word of the Lord when I'm giving you that truck. I see a truck, a Ford truck, big truck and God is giving to you. God said the equipment that you desperately need. The equipment you desperately need I'm giving to you. God said it's getting ready because the last two weeks you have been talking to your friend, even Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken and what I'm seeing is that God said I'm going to do it because this business you want to put together is going to happen. I'm looking at you and I'm seeing oil all over your hands and everything. You are Mr. Fixer.  You have been through some challenges.  Put your hands down. I'm looking at you and I'm looking at the sky very bright, very beautiful. It was 89 degrees. So it was a warm beautiful day. Thank you Jesus. Oh God, I give you praise. I want you to put your hand on your heart. The things you went through, even the health challenges, the things you went through because of all this depression, the pain, the ick you went through. God said I'm taking it away. You will not have, you will not suffer heart condition, heart problem. Here the word of the Lord, even that which has run through the generation. I'm releasing the strong delivering you. And I saw in May, thank you Jesus. Yeah, I see it now. May the 20th. Oh, thank you Jesus. On a Wednesday, the year 2009, thank you Jesus. The year 2009 May the 20th on a Wednesday at 335. You going through this thing, you suffer this thing. But God said no weapon that is formed against you again shall prosper. God, I'm turning the tense around. I'm turning your furnaces around. Even that cottage, that property you are believing God for, it is a dantil. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. What's your name? George. Ah, that's a good name. My brother is George. George, I hear the word of the Lord and God says, son, all the confusion and the frustration is going to stop. For God says, you've been through so much the struggle, the struggle, the struggle, and it's really almost lowered your self esteem. Even you yourself think and know, I should be further than I am right now. So that's been a real frustration. But God says son kabaroshande. I'm beginning to remove some people from your life. I'm looking at you and I begin to hear a conversation. And in the conversation, it's really not godly and it's not holy. It's almost the enemy has said some people on an assignment to keep you from your destiny. But God says son, I'm about to remove them, strip them. In fact, get your phone and delete some numbers. God says delete, delete, delete. And as you delete, God says the Holy Spirit is going to strip them out. Kabaroshande. God says son, every time you try to take one step for it, you'll push two steps back. And it's the pushing back that's causing you the frustration. God says son kabaroshande. I'm looking at you. I see two friends almost about a year and a half, 18 months to two years ago. And they got in some bad situations. And God says son, I preserved you. I kept you because you could have been pulled in. Even now your life would not be existing.  Now is the season the Lord says son, come to the cross. Amen. Come to the cross. Give God praise in the house of the Lord. Hallelujah. Actually, while I'm just right here, what's your name? You? Yeah. Son, I'm quickly. My, you're gorgeous. Hallelujah. Oh, you're so pretty. What's your name? Nancy, I hear the word of the Lord and I'm looking at you and I see books all around you. So without another, there's more studies for you in education. God says daughter, I'm providing for your education. I see you at one level, but God is going to open a door because I see you at a second level in your education, which means you'll be go, go beyond a first degree, even to a second degree. But a time in a season is going to come where there will be a doctor behind your name.   I see you position even the institution that you go to, you're going to have favor with a dean and favor even with instructors and time in a season is going to come. Even will ask you to assist one advisor or one faculty member in that institution.  I tell you, you're going to go very far. You're going to have influence in your community. There's so much grace, so much favor. God says that you're a, thank you, Lord.  I'm listening to you pray and intercede and go before the throne of God. God says, woman of God, there's power in you. A day of time in a season is going to come where God is also going to use you in the house of the Lord. Isn't God good?  Sir, stand up. It is going to be okay. What is your name? That's all I know. All the tears are over. All the pain are over. You've been going through some challenges. The enemy have set you up and bind you and put you into the shell and you cannot get out. For the last 15 years you have been going through trauma. The world calls it bad luck, but in the kingdom of God the enemies come against you. It's been set up because 15 years ago, March the 6th, you and Alejandro got into it and he cast a spell on you, but today it shall be broken. Today it shall be broken. All the pains have gone through. All the challenges have gone through. The enemies shall not put you in prison anymore. The enemies shall not put you in this shell again. You are here. There's anointing. The glory of God is here and God is going to set you free.  All the pain, the accident, the works of the enemy, the scheme is broken today. Hear me? Let all the anger go. Let all the anger go. You got to forgive these two people.  Let go and God will set you free. Do you know Jesus? Have you given your life to Jesus? Good. Let it go. Let it go because what happened on Thursday at 2.35 in the afternoon, God wants to turn their things around. God wants to turn around. God wants to turn it around.  Say I'm free. No, you are not free. Lift both hands. Say I'm free. No, you're not free. Say I'm free. In Jesus' name you are free. Give God praise in the house of the Lord. Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah. Prophet, sorry, I'm way back here. You can't find me, can you? Okay, go ahead. No, actually, here's a gentleman.  They're in the overflow, so there's some people in this little overflow room back there, so what's this minister to you? Go ahead, Dr. Bero. Victor. Victor, I hear the word of the Lord and God says, son, I'm coming to give away where there is no way. I'm coming to make a way where there is no way. You've almost been backed up into a corner and I'm looking at you and there's just chaos all around you. You're in a corner and you can't see a way out, but God says I'm coming to make a way out for even the situation kanda marusho. Thank you, father. Even the financial situation that you're dealing with right now, it's almost causing a confusion. It's a little bit, I'm going to echo, sorry, but it's almost causing a confusion in the home, let me say that. And so there's a little bit of turmoil. I'll just be nice about it. There's a little bit of turmoil going on even in the home situation, but God says I'm coming to cause shalom peace even in your home, for the Lord says even you need a favor right now from a man and God says I'm going to give you that favor. You've been crying out. Actually, even you haven't been crying out. There's another person beside you who's been crying out to the Lord on your behalf and God says because of the prayers of that individual and that person, I'm going to come and shift some things in your life and turn things around. God is getting ready even to connect you to an individual who's going to bring you into a place of holiness and righteousness with the Lord. For God says, son, you need to shake off the old garment and allow God to put on a fresh garment. Hallelujah. God is a good God, my God.  Yeah, stand up. What is your name? Eh? Samson? Where's the lala? No, no, no, the answer. That's a joke. I joke. You're my brother. I see you come to the crossroad of your life.  That's a business deal. That's a business deal. That's a business deal and God is about to rock your well, blow your mind and do it. I want you to turn around. Hear me. The deal is of God. He's going to give you victory. I'm going to give you a sign. You are victorious. You are what? Victorious. You are what? I'm hearing. Who is Victoria in this line? Who is Victoria? Stand up. Stand up. The grace of God is upon you. Stand. This double. The grace of God is upon you. You are victorious. What's your name? Victoria. Victoria, the grace of God is upon you. God is doing things to turn around. God says it is done because the business anointing spirit of entrepreneurship is coming upon you. The last six months you have been calling to God about this financial breakthrough. God is touching. God is costing the financial breakthrough to come upon you. Dr. Berra, pick it from there. Victoria, God says no more tears, no more crying, no more weeping. For God says, daughter, all even the broken heart that you went through. You need to come for one second. God says, daughter, the bomb of Gilead is being applied to your heart now. Even the broken is the frustration, the crying, the tears in the midnight hour. For God says, daughter, you are my handmaiden. You are not a doormat. For God says, daughter, you went through a situation. You cannot unscrambles scrambled eggs. For God says, daughter, I did you a favor. And the Lord says, daughter, now I'm getting ready to come in and restore and renew and make things all. You are going to have a testimony. You are going to have a testimony. You are going to have a testimony. For God says, daughter, you cried and cried and cried out to me. Now watch me come in. I even sweetly around you in your family. They were almost laughing and making a mockery of because of the situation that you've gone through.  I'm going to revise.  And God says, get ready. There's a promotion that's due you. Victoria, you are victorious. Victoria, you are victorious. Hear the word of the Lord. The six figures is coming to you. You are blessed. Financial prosperity. God bless you. Amen. What's your name? Sorry before you just sit down. Samson. That's a good name. Samson, I hear the word of the Lord and God says six to eight months ago you sold a seed and you sold that seed in faith. I mean you really went beyond the norm. Let me say it that way. You went beyond the usual and you sold that seed. God says, now you're about to reap a harvest.  God is going to put it in your heart. I see you almost in an organization, association, almost like a fellowship, something that God is going to put together. And I see you working with some young people and giving them principles and ideas and insight and strategy and business. God says, man of God, as you begin to do this thing, you're going to raise up dominionship leaders in the kingdom of God. And even as you do this thing, I see that it's going to happen not just in the city where you live, but God is going to take it to another city and then it's going to go to another city and then to another city.  Amen. Let's give God praise. Dr. Barrow, before we minister to this young man, I'm going to minister to him. I want you to get in the overflow. Thank you. I'm seeing a lady blonde in a white. I bet I know who it is because I almost called her. Okay, that's what I sense. Thank you, whoever she is. I just call her to stand up quickly. Okay, girl, she's the one. I hear the word of the Lord. I'm drawing your tears. I'm drawing your tears. Last week on Tuesday, 11.15 in the morning after that phone call, girl said it will not happen.  I'm driving things away. The enemy has attacked your health, attacked this thing, and you've been going through for the last six months, you've been going through this warfare. And God said it is over today. You're going to see the glory of God and even that thing you've been feeling at your left foot. Your left foot and it's affected your uncle. Your uncle and it causes lack of equilibrium and it causes it to fall. It's stopping because it's the attack of the enemy. I want you to turn around, turn around, turn around. Ah, ma, stupro sanda. Even this morning, when you got up, you were talking to God and said, God help me, love, I just need you to touch me. God said all the tears you've shed. I'm putting the bottle. I'm pouring up on you. I said, bless him. It is going to be done.  Come on, go, hallelujah. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. This young man was in the overflow as well. And he's a champion. Yeah, he is. Give him a word. Give him a word. I hear the word of the Lord in God's Son.   And God says you are going to lead many into the weight of the kingdom because you are going to wear two hats.  And God says I'm going to use you to lead people into the kingdom. And there's a strong evangelistic anointing upon you. And God says, son, and I'll raise you up in business as well. Even God's getting ready to change some things even in the school for you, in the atmosphere, in your learning, says the Lord God Almighty. The Holy Spirit is getting ready to rework and do some things new in you. Son, can you lift your hands for one minute? I know it's maybe a little request that you don't get very often. But God says these hands are going to lead lives and lives are going to be transformed as these hands are laid. God says there's healing in these hands, young men. God says I'm going to use you. I'm going to take you far and wide. I'm going to tell you something. You may not even understand this, but a day is going to come where you're going to have a name that's going to be known.  Signs, wonders, signs, wonders and miracles. Can I tell you?   You're going to be handpicked and it's going to set you into a leadership course that's going to transform your life. Amen, hallelujah, hallelujah. Isn't God good?  Let's worship Him. Let's tell Him He's great. Hallelujah. That's what church ought to be.  When we come to the house of the Lord, we want God to move, have His own way. Isn't God good? Who wants a prophecy here?  Lift up, stand up. Go, go, stand there. Do you believe what is going on? Go, go, go, stand there. What's your name? Go, Mark. Go, just go, go, go, go. Turn around. God said quit begging Him. Quit begging Him. You are not a beggar. Quit begging Him. For the last nine and a half months, you have been going through something. Say, God, what have I done to deserve this? That was on the Tuesday. And you are going, isn't God? I don't understand. The enemy has come against you, come against you. This morning, when you got up, you said, God, if you are dead, really speak to me. Because I want the confirmation. Because you want to get into this project. You are afraid of being a lot of challenges and things. But God is going to give you a breakthrough. The spirit of entrepreneurship is upon you. Do you believe it? I'm going to tell you something. Lift up your hands. Hands, put your hands down, Mark. You a young man. You a young man. This year, what? 2000, what? Let's go back three years. What is that? Let's go back another two years. How much is that? Let's go back another five years. How much is that? So that would be here, what? Eh? Hello, it would be what? What? What? Let's go back three more years. Let's go back. Come, let's go back. One God to move. Hallelujah. What year would that be? 2004. Let's take another five years back. Two more years back. Some of you are not even sure. 1997. It's what? Let's go back another two years. It would be what? What? 1995. Are you ready for this? Let's go back another three years. It would be how much? 92. One more year. 91. 87. 87. 86. I like that. I like that. 85 and what? So it would be what? 19 what? 19. Spends on the month in 86. Let's align the Holy Spirit to help us. It would be what? Okay, let's stay there. Everybody starts speaking in tongues. Come on, come on. Let's believe God. This is God. You see that God is Lord God. Okay, stop. Mark, turn around. Okay, God.  June, June, June. Did you say June? June. June, thank you Jesus. June, 1985. June, thank you Jesus. June, Thursday. Goshi Tebaranto, Niigabuzanda. 14th. You're a young man. You were with this friend. Put your hands down. And then you got in trouble. Really, it was not in trouble. Of course, you're sitting in the class. Somebody datans, but three of you guys. And you laugh, but you're loud. And you accuse for causing trouble, confusion there. But you didn't do anything. A vast spirit of guilt the enemy has taken it amplified it. Goshi, I destroyed that the year 1985. Thank you Jesus. June, June, the 14th. On a Thursday, what you went through, the enemy has used that as a stronghold in your life. And put this victory. But God is breaking that and push you to go forward in ministry and in business. And the enemy has put a spirit of infirmity over your life. This diabetes is not going to hold you back.  And you just all your palms sweat and other things. You don't know what you're going through your health. But I hear the word of the Lord. I'm about to cause a financial breakthrough to come. You are blessed. God bless you. Hallelujah. Mark, God bless you. Where's Michelle? Because she introduced us to this ministry. Oh, my friend, stand up. It's not up to you for a while. Michelle, you have been going through challenges.  You have been going through and you've been what is going on? What is going on?   Two and half months ago you had a dream.  You said maybe I'm not a principal.  God said don't allow all this thing you're going through. All these challenges to stop you because God is training you. You're going to be a principal of a school one day. After that, God say I'm going to give you a Christian school. You're going to have your own school and God is going to begin to bless it. When you were 15 years of age, you and your sister doing this thing, the leadership and you are talking to your sister. I say one day I'm going to have a school and I hear the word of the Lord. It is a done deal so don't let the enemy and the warfare that you're going through confuse you.    Michelle, I hear the word of the Lord and God says, daughter even in the next three to six months, don't let your faith be shaken but there is going to be a little shaking around you.   I don't even know another way to say it but when you see it there's a stripping because God says where I'm taking you some people can't go. I don't know another way to say this. It's true. You finish in me. She says it's true. It's okay.  When you have a school God says you are going to put together a curriculum and that curriculum is going to be taken by other educational institutions. That curriculum is even going to be taken internationally because when you have a school God says now you're then going to be asked to come to a school in another country and then also another country. At time and a season is going to come where an international organization is going to fund you to do an educational project in a developing country. God says daughter no I'm going to raise you up to a great level.  In Jesus name hallelujah.


Welcome. It's 101 Eastern. Welcome to Vision, a show about the trends, ideas, and disruptions changing the face of our democracy. Our rights are not inert immutable statues that we gaze at from afar. They exist inside our society. They respond to and shape real facts about how we live and interact. And for no right is this more clearly apparent than free expression. The basic concepts animating the American conception of free speech have a kind of timeless resonance. It's as simple as you get to believe what you want and say what you want. Yet the things we think and the things we say are rooted in the times that we live also rooted in the times that we live are the contours of what ideas and thoughts are considered acceptable. And what is acceptable inevitably raises questions about what should be or can be allowable. Just this last week, a fewer has erupted over a letter in Harper's signed by over 100 intellectuals, raising concerns that while the current of moment the current moment of reckoning, particularly about race is welcome. It has brought with it quote, an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty close quote. And the letter has occasioned no little controversy online and off since its publication, but also implicit in this quote is really the vexed train of contemporary discussions about free expression. The sometimes perceived tension between what makes an environment inclusive versus what makes an environment open and free. The internet in amplifying all kinds of speech, including shaming and reproach, and the politicization of our concept of the right to free speech. There are few people as expert in both the law of free speech, and in its contemporary politics than Dr. Mary Anne Franks who was a professor of law and the Dean's Distinguished Scholar at the University of Miami and the President of the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative and so today it's our great pleasure to welcome to the show. Mary Anne Franks thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. So I'd love to start you have a, you have a recent book, very provocatively titled called the Cult of the Constitution. That's about sort of a right to free speech and the way that's been politicized and also the right to bear arms and second amendment how that's been politicized. So I'd love to sort of before we get into the issues of today just tell us a bit about that book and what that book argues about about the Constitution about our society. So the book is essentially trying to talk about fundamentalism and extremism, which a lot of people understand in the religion context I think people understand what it means to take a scripture or a text and to essentially make it so that their interpretation of it just so happens to fit their world view and to advance their world view, and that anyone who disagrees is not just someone who disagrees but is someone who's a heretic and deserves perhaps ostracism and maybe even violence. And I'm trying to say in the book that that is something that has really happened to the, the Constitution in the United States that there are many people who do something very similar to what religious fanatics do with certain scriptures. And I want to talk about that as a diagnosis for people's attachment to their own self interest on the one hand, and they're cowardice on the other hand in not acknowledging that that's really what they want is to always come out on top for themselves or for their tribe. So instead of being able to just say that that that is what they want to do, that these are people who are appropriating the Constitution and the rights in the Bill of Rights to try to say no this is what the First Amendment demands or this is what the Second Amendment commands us to do, and in that sense trying to disavow the fact that it just so happens that the same people who have always had more power whether that's with regard to speech or with regards to guns or regard to any other right or privilege. So it just so happens that our constitutional interpretations just happen to keep that status quo in place and that gives people this kind of authority and it gives them the sense that they are fighting on behalf of some great principle, as opposed to fighting on behalf of their own privileges. And so how does this land in in the issue of free expression in particular what are the kinds of arguments that we might think are genuine arguments, but that sort of along the lines of the logic of this book are really just appropriations of language about what were what kind of right to free expression were entitled to. I think we look at specifically at the question of free speech and ask ourselves who is it that actually struggles to be heard, because everyone as you were mentioning in the introduction. Everyone wants to say at a certain time I'm being silenced I am being canceled I am being suppressed in some ways. There's this real expansionism when it comes to what we think freedom of speech entails and who we think the threats to that freedom of speech are. There's a huge expansion in terms of what we think about censorship that everything can be censorship. And it seems as though that definition has become collapsed into censorship is every time someone doesn't enthusiastically welcome and promote the things that I want to say. That's a troubling phenomenon in itself, but what's even more troubling is how very little variety we've ever gotten in all of the centuries right that we've had to work this out in terms of who gets to speak freely. If you ask who is speaking all the time right there's obvious power in politics there's obvious business interests there's obvious educational institutions. And primarily, all of them really are run by the same people primarily white wealthy men who have always had more access to those institutions and to platforms than anyone else. And yet they're also oftentimes the very one saying I can't get my speech heard the way that I want the speech to be heard.  We've always had sort of the same people running this monolithic culture of freedom of speech, and that should trouble all of us, because if our theory and our practice for all of this time have been able to produce only this kind of monolith. And there's something deeply impoverished about that way of looking at freedom of speech. But thinking about there's so thinking about things like like the Harper's letter for example there's no question that there's a that there's a version of interpreting that line of argument. That you know like there's a dominant discourse that just wants to sort of defend its moat, you know it's it's it's castle and of course it's going to react to a moment when others are really visibly claiming the right to speak in a way that is really hard to ignore, really visibly surfacing the ways in which they have not had voice in a way that's really hard to ignore. But there's also, I think a line of argument, animating that kind of that the kind of thing that you saw in that letter which is that folks who say I get that I accept everything that you just said, Dr. Franks, but the penalty for certain ideas is now so high it's not that I think I need speech needs to be centered on me I recognize that there are real asymmetries and who gets to speak and who feels they can speak in the But I fear that if I disagree now with the people being recentered, you know the penalty is disqualification rather than censure this what do you think of that sort of lighter version of the argument about the moment. Well there's always something legitimate about the criticism that we are as a culture because again I think it's very important to distinguish the First Amendment's protections and how it protects us only against state interference and how a huge part of the dysfunction of this debate is that there's so much constitutional illiteracy around this question right that we think First Amendment rights are everywhere when they're actually really not there. They're right. No questions, but this larger question about the culture of free speech. Yeah, sure of criticism and disagreement and dissent. All of that is very important and if the diagnosis is we as a culture have become more biased that there's more temptation to say you've spoken wrongly or out of the Orthodox view and therefore there's going to be these penalties for you I think we do want to take stock of whether that's improving the state of our public discourse or making it worse. But what I wonder about very many times when people complain about this is there's a lot of sleight of hand that goes on tend to gesture at sort of you know what's going on even the Harper's letter itself right there's a couple of examples that are listed but not very specifically so and so we're left to think a little bit what the authors of the letter are getting at and I think it's always important to think about the question of anecdote versus evidence that you don't want to turn to a couple of incidents and say oh this was a bad situation where someone lost their job because they did something that was perfectly legitimate. Those are bad stories they're always bad stories but the question really has to be what's the proportion of that versus other things that we should be worried about when it comes to freedom of speech. And it is if we think that it's bad that people can be fired for their views I wonder how much of that really should be a conversation about the at will employment nature of right. If we're wondering about getting criticized for something that that again seems to loop back on itself right that you're not immune from criticism if you take a stand that is unpopular and nobody should be asking for insulation from criticism.  If they are finding new photos of you and publishing them on the internet, then yes we should be worried about those kinds of things because no one deserves to have those things happen to them. And then we're back to this question of well then who's complaining about that because women again and non white men and minorities of every stripe essentially have had to deal with that all this time. So the idea that anybody's waking up to a moment of Oh suddenly people like me are experiencing these negative sensorious silencing kinds of actions. So I hope that that would prompt someone to think well who else has been experiencing that for much longer and sort of in a much greater scale, because if we don't care about those people, I think it always demonstrates that we're back to that question of how sincere you being if you don't care about something happening to you that happens 10 times as often to someone else, then maybe you don't care about that thing you care about you. I'd always want that to be the question that we always want that to be the approach we take whether that's to the Harper's letter or anything else. How much of this is trying to actually point out something proportionally wrong with the fact that certain groups and people with certain views or identities are disproportionately being silenced and being harassed and being tormented for views and nothing more. Right over their identity. Yeah, go ahead. No, so I definitely want to come back to that because you've written a lot about I think the way the internet in particular confuses us in terms of thinking about what is expression but just to sort of stand this for a little bit. I mean, and I think your right to recent rice on this is not about our First Amendment rights this is about a culture of openness and why we value that and how we value that. So I would accept, definitely I would be would would would would be sympathetic to, I think, and think we all should be sympathetic to sort of most of the premises you'd advanced I think we should not underrate the kind of disingenuine retrenchment not always malicious. That's going on with these are I think there's some fear that's animating some of these arguments in some cases but but but some of it is definitely malicious. I'm a state senator cares about what's being said in a college campus. I sort of question what the motivation is the the and I think also I think we absolutely have to be sympathetic to the evidence the evidence. If it's about a culture of openness, the question is what views are being aired in like white men's views are being aired white men don't need to worry that their views are being aired, whether they individually feel that they're the the the author of those views the agent of those I guess I wonder though about the positive potential. So, so I, I think the sort of I think you're right. I think the sort of the negative argument against retributive kind of a retributive approach to to to whatever deviant ideas are is fake. But I wonder, is there more positive potential to less retributive models if we have sort of more restorative sense that you said this thing. It's a deviant view or it hurts people. Is there more because you know when I think about say like restorative versus retributive justice the power of restorative justice isn't like we stop talking about the defendant and start talking about all those voices right that it's about testimony. Yeah, so like I've thought for like why when a college professor says something that uses a racial epithet for pedagogical reasons. Why shouldn't that person be subjected to hearing from a bunch of students and what their experiences are feeling that what that might would that maybe be more powerful, you know in recruiting that professor and others in exactly the kind of project that you describe. I'm glad that you've narrowed it in that sense because a huge part about the huge aspect of the health of our public discourse has to do with what do we want people to do what what kind of discourse do we want to have and the idea that someone says something or does something that gets them sort of pushed out of the public sphere. Again, not to not to turn that into hyperbole right and there are worse things have been pushed out of the public sphere of Twitter or the cases but but certainly it's a question we should always ask ourselves what do we want society to do going forward if a person makes a mistake if a person is somewhere along their journey is advocating something that seems ill intended right and again we have to be very specific about what we mean here there's a huge difference between making a mistake or not having thought something through and actually taking an entrenched position that is racist or sexist or what have first of all I think we just need a lot more precision about what it is that we're talking about. To the extent that we want to have a healthy free speech discourse it has got to be the case that yes we want more conversations we don't want to say that that we've condemned you because of some action that you've taken. One of the worst impulses of the internet is that first of all it makes us all impulsive and it makes us all judgmental about other people's impulses. So you get rewarded for having reactions that are not very well thought through because immediacy is kind of the name of the game. You get rewarded for having more sort of polemical ideas or sort of you know here's my hot take on something that the kind of reward for performative contrarianism is just really high online. And then you also get rewarded for calling people out for doing all those things and so you've got the sick cycle of people just doing all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons. And I've written recently about how it's useful in some ways to compare that the speech norms of the internet broadly speaking to the speech norms of the university. And again I'm speaking extremely broadly and abstractly here but the idea that I would want to promote of the norms of the university are conversations. Every professor knows what it's like to have a student in class who says something that other students are not only offended by but hurt by it might even feel endangered by. What do you do you can't just send the student away and say you're no longer part of this conversation at least you know outside of really dramatic situations. Your job is to continue to have a conversation in some ways that makes people feel as though they can still contribute and that they can process what's happening we don't have to make a judgment about that person or about that statement or about that sentiment. We can subject it to the community the community's examination and the community's responses to this and you can talk through all of those things. Those are the kinds of norms I wish we had more of as opposed to the internet norms of you've said a thing and now you're no longer on the end or whatever the case. It's just it's an incredibly the internet norms of speech are incredibly bad and I mean that in the sense of they produce bad speech in the sense that it's less informed. Less reflective less thoughtful less generous less compassionate and less interesting, and that it is always better to have a community where we talk about people disagreeing because there isn't. I hope I hope most people would not want to actually advocate that there's one orthodox position on all of these issues that everyone has to conform to as opposed to a conversation people can have or choose not to have if they're not interested in it about truly vexed or complex social issues. Yeah, I would agree that I may I would even take it further I think I think the internet norms of speech on internet encourage bad faith speech right like there's something there's something really implicit in the educational model you know which is that you're pedagogically you're intrinsically interested in the other person being better off as a result of this interaction now whether that's on their terms or not that's the debate but I. That's another form of sort of disingenuous behavior right that you're alluding to which is a lot of folks who raise these concerns of I'm being shut down. They don't fail they don't pass the test of I'm thinking about what is really what is going to leave the marginalized person better off here I sustaining the argument for openness on that basis should be something that we should have to listen to to and and and respond to so let's let's talk about norms of speech on the internet norms of conduct as you've talked a lot about this I think one of the really powerful ideas that you've written about that I really think is reshaped. The discussion about the internet is that the companies like to talk about everything as content that it's all the same kind of thing. Thank you and Danielle Citrone who I know you work with have to have have sort of have sort of called the question on this. And so could you talk a little bit about that about the ways in which the internet sort of fools us into thinking everything is speech when in fact there are these really important distinctions to be made. Yeah so that's a huge part of why there's a whole chapter in my book on the internet and it's called the cult of the internet is because I think the internet has kind of accelerated all of our worst impulses when it comes to thinking shallowly about what speeches versus what conduct is just for starters. That is, you know, as anyone who's really spent any time thinking about the First Amendment or free speech in the offline context knows there are real contested boundaries between speech and conducts there is a there has been on the part of First Amendment First Amendment jurisprudence and expansive notion of expressive conduct so that it's not just things that have to be written or things that are said, but there's nonetheless a boundary between what is considered speech and what are other things right and there's you can take simplistic formulations of this to say that I might mean something very expressive if I punch you in the face but that doesn't make it speech as opposed to conduct and it doesn't mean that we presume that you're allowed to punch people if you have a really serious message to convey with it. So the problem one of the problems of the internet is that it essentially and this is something that has been contributed to by laws like section 230 but also by cyber idealists and the tech industry promoting this idea that essentially everything online is speech when of course it's not I mean there's a there's an incredible sort of double consciousness about this where people are fully aware of how we're doing everything online now and you buy products online you get educated online you socialize online you buy guns online. So on the one hand we recognize how much the internet has become completely intertwined with all of our daily activities. And at the same time when it comes to questions about regulation or about how to understand those activities suddenly we're talking about as though it's speech. And once it becomes speech it's oh you can't touch it no matter how bad it is there's always even if there's bad speech online or bad activities it can be countered with other kinds of speech. And all of that's just wrong it's not it wouldn't be right in the offline context and it's no more right in the online context. And so a big part of the problem with the with what the internet has done to us when it comes to the free speech question is that it short circuited this examination that we should be doing of whether certain activities should qualify as speech or whether or not there should be considered conduct and that is huge ramifications for how we behave online. So I do think a big part of getting away from that has got to be a step back from this vague kind of abstract notion of the internet being all about speech. It's not it's clearly not. And we need to be having hard conversations about where the boundaries are of what someone's activity online is versus their pure speech in the sense of expressing problematic views on Twitter. What do you what do you I sort of want to ask about kind of causes and solutions like on the causes side. Why are we here is this just nefarious regulatory arbitrage. Is this some really smart First Amendment lawyers in Silicon Valley 20 years ago saying hey let's just call it a speech or or is it that have we have we backed our way into this position by is this just sort of an innocent mistake we've made that we took a platform that is a was a communications platform and then suddenly found ourselves in a set of integral institutions as you describe. Well as with all complex social issues there's a mix of answers. I think part of it is that no there are people who at the time let's say in the 1990s and cyber idealism really took hold who knew exactly what they were doing. And then there were people who I think truly were sort of drinking the Kool-Aid on this right that they really did think and I should back up and not even not even be that contemptuous of it in the 90s and in the 80s. Cyber feminism other sort of alternative viewpoints that really thought you know the Internet's actually going to do something radical right because it seems as though especially when you were talking about the early days of the Internet that was not so image based and it was certainly not as all encompassing as our Internet today.  That there was a remarkable sort of naive idealism to all this that I am actually quite sympathetic to and only wish that it had ever come to pass. Because that is a lovely idea right that you would get to escape your your embodiment and you get to escape that kind of prejudice and really just live in the life of the mind. So I think there was some of that I think there are people who from the very beginning cynically knew that that was not what this was going to be about and then the really tricky thing is you had the the full revolutionary aspect of the of the Internet. I always go back to this to my hobby horse about John Perry Barlow's right about you know cyberspace because you know when he writes that manifesto it's meant to echo the Declaration of Independence and he's not wrong in the sense that it's a revolutionary moment saying we're throwing off the yoke of tyranny. Not sure who was tyrannizing you know John Perry Barlow or the people like him at the time but let's say that there was some kind of tyranny of oppression that that existed for white men. But at the same time not acknowledging the fact that to the extent that there ever was that kind of oppression. There were obviously people that are empowered now coming into power who are now going to do the same thing or continue to do the same thing to everyone that isn't part of their tribe women and non white men. So you have this full revolution right it's like oh we're going to do something so amazing with the Internet. And we don't really care what happens to women and to anybody who's not like us because who what we're really trying to do is to set up ourselves as persecuted minorities as victims of some vague kind of conspiracy out there which we're not allowed to speak our minds we're not allowed to exercise our liberties as opposed to actually having that great revolutionary moment we could have had which is, you know who really could use a revolutionary Internet, or all the people who never actually had the same access to freedom of speech or any of the other liberties. So I think it's a mix of those things and then you get politicians involved to know very little, very often about technology or where it's headed and then you just have kind of the mess that you get in and then you have to have dependence after that and and you also get generation after generation, which the younger they are the more they understand about the Internet than the older generation. And that creates all kinds of problems because the if the younger generation understands technology they don't understand very much about malice and they don't understand very much about long term consequences and they don't understand much about history. And so you have a real disconnect there between those who can say, you have the tools that you understand better than we do and we can see just how badly this is all going to go and that conversation just didn't happen very often those two communities very much. So as the as the as the parent of a four and two year old I can agree that's the asymptotic behavior on the Internet, but I actually I really agree with the call back to the to the Perry bar I think for for listeners it's the declaration of the independence of cyberspace we can send it around. I think it's a great text as well to sort of to your point about the the conceptual framework of a cult like the liturgy among that's that the commercial sector of the Internet around that for a revolution is so palpable I mean you just compare the mission statements in the IPO documents of these companies to like a consumer package you know consumer package of companies mission statement is we make food for people to consume.  What we really are as a company that believes that people can trust each other, you know, and be and be I mean I Facebook, you know, I think talks this way Bezos talks this way. So thinking about the solution side though. You know some of the questions we're getting are you know what are the to what extent are these design feature issues on the Internet you know anonymity right as you know is a good example anonymity has liberatory potential. But the reality is it's it's the thing that you use in order to be in an aggressor. What do you what do you what do you think are some of the design elements of the Internet that are responsible for this versus the sort of structural regulatory questions that I know you also think about a lot. Well you've touched on a big one I think the anonymity question is, again, the long standing tradition in the United States of thinking that anonymous speech is good is premised on a certain amount of safety and a certain amount of insulation from consequences right so anonymity when used by those who are vulnerable as a way of protecting themselves from the powerful is something that we should respect and is an important part of any healthy functioning democracy. The problem is of course that with the Internet you don't get to dole out the anonymity and the good benefits of the structure to those who actually want good things. Every tool that you could have that a vulnerable person could make use of is going to be exploited by a person who means harm and anonymity is one amplifications another and those two things are very closely tied that instead of just being the person who's screaming in the corner about how much you hate women or black people, you can now access a platform of other people screaming about the same thing and now you can become a whore that then targets individuals that you don't like. That's a huge problem that the Internet has really sort of facilitated. The other thing is the question of permanence that if you at some point we could have thought of harassment as being as having a shelf life right you have bad experiences maybe within your school or work, a certain town, all of that is bad can be devastating but at some point you'll be able to exit. There's no exiting from Internet harassment or at least in at least in many cases there's not it follows you wherever you go so that permanence aspect of it which is also closely tied to the captivity aspect of it. A lot of our free speech norms are premised on the idea that if you don't like certain speech you can just ignore it. How are you going to ignore the fact that if someone has targeted you for harassment that they put that your name next to private information about them, they have libel you and put a website out there that actually just is dedicated to assassinating your character and that's the first thing anyone's going to see if they do a search for your name. You don't actually get a chance to opt out and there's no way that people can really escape from, for instance what the president says on Twitter you can't just say why don't I get I'm not going to listen to it so in some ways it's all of the premises that we might have had for a working free speech norms in our culture are upended by what the Internet makes possible and yet we haven't adjusted our norms to think about that. What do you think about we're getting a lot of questions about, you know, cancel culture and you know, I did I think there are some folks who think just sort of along the lines of what you're suggesting right that like certain experiences that in the analog world can be ignored or not objectionable feel qualitatively different when like 10,000 people are doing them to you at the same even things that we wouldn't consider really harassment. You know, I mean, I, I, you know, there I've heard accounts of people who really wield quite a lot of power but who have been criticized online and describing that experience of that those days is like it felt like the whole world, you know, was was was sort of suffocating feeling that the world has turned against you what do you how do how do we help us navigate the things like cancel culture which we're making a lot out of help us navigate what what parts of these problems should we really focus on and what parts of these problems are again, you know, the powerful finding some excuse to defend their domain. I think part of the problem is this kind of terminology right cancel culture is right up there with snowflakes and safe spaces and all the rest of it. There's so many terms and concepts that have just become emptied out of all meaning because everyone can use them in ways that are highly selective and subjective. And I worry that you know, like the Harper's letter, all these kinds of terms have become workshop tests for people, and we're not actually agreeing on what those concepts mean and so they have really limited utility when we're trying to diagnose those problems. So I think that you know where to start with that. I don't know where to start with that right because if we can't even get onto the same page about what our goals are. What chance do we have so that sense of here I want to borrow from a legal standard in the harassment context from the legal standard, especially in title nine and title seven context. Severe or pervasive. I guess I should bracket title nine perspective because of recent developments but let's stick with title for seven for a second severe or pervasive. That's I think very wise in some ways as a recognition of the kind of damage certain types of harassing activity can have on a person or as you say maybe not even thought of in isolation as harassment. I've heard in the sense that one single incident of someone doxing your private address is enough to make a whole life change, but also someone who just sends you I don't know some kind of crude mock up of your child or something along those lines, and it's 30 times a day or 100 times a day or three times a day.  And I don't think anyone who's never been on the receiving end of that kind of harassment understands just how much it really does take away from your power to do anything else. One thing again I'd like to move away from the individual examples and many cases and think about that right where do we locate, where how do we measure what it means when someone is experiencing that kind of harassment or that kind of targeted attention, such that it means that they don't really get to contribute to the community anymore such that they don't get to do the work that they need to do. We all should care about that unless again, we're being constitutional cultists and we only care about us and ourselves and our tribe. We actually do care about freedom of speech we need to ask ourselves well, do we actually think that women can speak freely online, especially if they're making an allegation about sexual assault or they're criticizing a powerful and wealthy white person do we actually think that freedom is anybody else does. Do we think that black lives matter is this is kind of unmitigated success for free speech and there's no consequences for people who decide to identify with that movement or to make to take the risk of protesting in that name. And if we're not spending a lot of time thinking about those things I again I suspect that what we're actually thinking about is just now wait I want the world to be comfortable for me. Don't worry that another aspect of the internet that makes all of this so much worse is, we put an extraordinary emphasis on how we feel, as opposed to descriptive accounts of what the world is like, and we're back to that question of anecdote versus evidence of what I feel as though this is canceling me I feel as though I don't get to have a platform I want. We, I wish we could flip a switch to say that it doesn't actually matter that much how you feel it matters how much you can measure it and explain in a semi objective way how much harm it's causing certain communities, because if all we have a subjective feelings clearly we're going to just to send into tribalism very much the way that we have, and everybody who has learned that the language of victimhood can be powerful is simply going to adopt that language and so we've got to have some metrics in place so to speak to stop that from happening. I agree with that except for my subjective feelings no I agree with that I so last so last question how about. So I think this is a good tip for for maybe getting a preview of where for our audience of where your work is going so you know you've demystified the sort of ecclesiastic authorities that have that are protecting their own their own domain, initiate what are the new mysteries you know what are what are the elements of what you think is a positive conception of of both a law of and a culture of expression that also is you know centered on on on the real the real concerns of the voices that we aren't hearing that we are preventing from being heard that we're missing in our discussion what are some of the ideas that are part of what you think is is a is a better framework. So the concept that I'm really focusing on in my recent work and on the next book that I'm writing now is on this concept this Greek conception of freedom of speech called paracea, and that's that's been translated as free speech, but I think we've in lost the limits of that concept I'm a little worried that that concept has become indeed out of all meaning. And in the 1980s, the French philosopher Michel Foucault sort of revisited the concept of paracea and said you know the better translation of it is fearless speech not free speech. And he offered all these illuminating ways of distinguishing between just sort of reckless speech as I'm calling it and fearless speech and the characteristics that I'm sort of glossing on here first and foremost that the fearless speaker is someone who speaks sincerely, and by sincerely that means someone who actually owns the ideas that they're advancing they don't hide behind anonymity they don't try to pretend as though they were just playing a character they actually have to say this is who I am and this is what I think even if I'm wrong. And it also has to involve risk taking and risk taking, importantly, to oneself not to other people because I think if there's one classification or one categorization that's more important than any other. When it comes to talking about speech today it's who is getting who is experiencing the burden of the risk.  So I'm drawing a distinction between what I'm calling reckless speech which I think American culture in particular has a fetish for and fearless speech reckless speech is the contrarian the provocative that the person motivated to simply troll and to see whether or whether or not they can cause harm to someone else or to be careless about it to take substantial and unjustified risk to use legal language with regards to other people's actual welfare. And by contrast the concept I'm excited by is the concept of fearless speech where someone risks something sincerely to themselves by speaking truth to power in a way that actually might cause real harm for them in the long run. So I want to take those qualifications of sincerity of owning what it is that you are saying and being willing to accept the consequences to yourself, especially when you're critiquing someone who has got more power than you have or at least has more ability to do damage than you those are the kinds of speakers I want us to valorize more in our culture. There's no reason why we have to to think that our free speech heroes have got to be reduced to the KKK and Larry Flint. There's lots of other important valuable fearless speech that we could celebrate and describe and have as our inherent tradition and that's what I really want to focus on and I would love for our culture to focus on in a in a meaningful sense. Just to put you on the spot a little bit is there a person or a moment that you've been thinking about for the book that is a perfect example of fearless speech that's not celebrated or under celebrated or even been criticized that you've been thinking about. Well I've been thinking about a lot of different examples and one of the ones that the one that motivates the book is actually not an American example but it was where I began thinking about this concept most intensely. One example. This is a young woman named Sophie Shull who was a member of the White Rose which was a very small student resistance group in Nazi Germany and they were engaging these students were engaging in this essentially a consciousness raising kind of activities where they were taking the same inputs to let the German people know what the Nazis were actually doing because of course the Nazis were using propaganda to say that that what they were really engaged in was a great battle against evil elements and the White Rose was taking these steps to try to show the people what they were actually doing and they got caught and they got caught in Sophie Shull was the only female member of this group and there's a record of her last words her last speech as she's being led to the guillotine because they were when they were caught they were tried I think within a couple of days and they were sentenced the very same day and sentenced to death for what they had done because she wouldn't renounce the White Rose she would renounce her brother she stuck to her principles about this and the you know I can't do her words justice but the concept that she I think left the world with that she was going towards her death was to say I had to do this I had to speak up because if I wasn't going to do it who was going to do it. And now I am going to have to pay the ultimate price for that but it was worth it. And I think about that concept the idea that that is a person who took a risk took the ultimate risk to say the truth. And then I think about the ways that we have had people in our history and American history specifically to that have done the same thing or have done lesser versions of this that is it doesn't always have to be death defying it can be taking risks and other sense I think about the me too movement so many of the women who come forward have taken that kind of risk. I think about Ida Wells I think about all the abolitionists I think about. Essentially everybody throughout history who was threatened or was lynched or was threatened with destruction of their career of their families I think of all the women and men writing today who are getting up every day and doing this kind of work and trying to highlight the wrongs of our world knowing that they're going to be threatened and harass and intimidated for doing so and those are the people that I really want to celebrate. Fantastic well this has been a tremendous inspiring and urgent conversation. You can follow Mary and follow progress on the book at m a underscore Frank's you can find the cult of the Constitution are deadly devotion to guns and free speech anywhere books are sold encourage you to check it out. We'll send this information to you after the show along with a couple of variants recent writings but very and thank you so much for joining us really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Before we go everyone I want to tell you about what's coming up on vision. Next week on July 16 will be having American media and technology lawyer and a BSE ed on July 23 will be hearing from Eugene Volick who's a first amendment law professor at UCLA. And on July 30 the London Nelson who's the president of the Social Science Research Council will be joining us as reminder this episode will be up on the website and you can see this episode and any episode on demand at kf.org slash vision follow us send us an email at vision at kf.org or follow us on Instagram at vision dot kf. Please take the survey that's up on your screen now and as always we will end the show to the sounds of Miami singer songwriter Nick County you can find his music on Spotify until next week thanks for joining us and stay safe.


that wasn't the joke so how do you how do you come for the javascript bug you can solve it come on I got more of a laugh when I said I was going to tell a joke how is everyone so I'm Stephen Cooper I'm also known as developer Steve everywhere including Weibo which is blocked on this network but yeah and Weibo is Chinese Facebook for those don't know I use it occasionally it's a good platform but I am developer advocate for PayPal and Braintree in the region and I can come now and say I'm from Braintree and everyone's going to go no because it's now launched to you but we'll get to that I am of course from PayPal who are putting on the event you may have heard of it small company just starting out but yeah I'm also from Braintree which not all of you may have heard of so Braintree basically the coolest integration ever like 12 lines of code seriously I do a demo on stage in a minute 20 let you take PayPal and credit card all of my little interface like PayPal will be coming soon to the integration to Singapore because it literally only just launched like two weeks ago it's super super new here it's still a cool integration in North America we've also got partnerships with to do Bitcoin which eventually will come here I've got no doubt it will and yeah so basically gives users like totally really cool ways to pay but did you want to see demo because everyone I'm talking to is like how do you do it did you want to see live code demo I was hoping you'd say that because I prepared one here's one we prepared earlier wait let me work out I did think that I was thinking I should have done but it was last minute so I could probably it could be done so this is the Braintree sandbox I've got no transactions in here because I just cleared my account to make sure it was all nice and fresh first thing I'm gonna do after I set up my account is going to my user and grab my API keys because that's the important part API keys so I can grab the public key from here I can grab my private key as well and it'll even give me different languages but I can grab so if I need integration can go right here grab whatever you need not media but we'll get so I've got a really basic I'm gonna do is PHP and JavaScript don't hate me yeah I'm gonna record it all these codes available on my github to github.com slash developer Steve so please go get it make it better break it do with it as what what you would want to do with it yeah and I'm available for questions so if you guys have any questions after please come talk to me let me see if I can can I make that bigger no I can't so basic folder I've got here I've got the Braintree SDK PHP SDK I've got an index.html and I've got a processing file it's a really basic form it looks basically looks just like this I did regionalize it a little bit can you spot what I did Lawrence is gonna go what did you do that it says pay the button so really simple input field for an amount and the button that says pay me lot so the for the code itself really basic HTML wait let me make that bigger there we go that's better processing side I'm just gonna call it wow that's really large in here I'm just gonna call in the PHP SDK of course I set up my configuration variables that I've gotten from the sandbox and I'm gonna first thing I'm gonna do is generate a token what that looks like is I get this really really long string there it is so I'm gonna copy so I'm gonna come back to the to the form I'm going to cheat and oops I just undid my law but I'm gonna drop in the JavaScript UI so this creates a drop-in UI which we'll see in a second inside that I'm going to attach the drop-in UI to a container which is called check out and then I'm going to drop that really really long token that I just generated right in there no one copy that down take all the screenshots and then I refresh the page and there's a payment box so what that token does it basically authenticates me as that user as that merchant and basically starts encrypting right from that start that that form loads in so now I can do my payment no one copy down that credit card it has a lot of sandbox limit then I'm going to go processing take this back out and now comes the fun transaction part so I've got some basic debugging in there just so you can see it now I'm expecting two amounts to be two inputs to be posted over an amount and then a payment method nonce so the payment method nonce I get back from brain tree once I hit submit it sends all the all the details in that box over to brain tree service so no credit card is ever stored on your server or PCI and then sends it back this payment method nonce that attaches to the form in a hidden field you get all that all right so 12345 paying with credit card I hit pay me just make sure I've saved that form and fingers crossed to the demo gods yes it works so now if I go to my sandbox here I've got a dashboard I should now see transaction for 12345 that's it first time I saw like I did that I was like wait that's it but yeah that's it that's literally it that was completely last minute because just because I was talking to a bunch of you and they were like hey what's brain trees yeah so anyway that's that's how it's done and languages so we literally just launched a new version of the website tonight I don't think Lawrence is seeing this yeah it's you brand new it's just come out but yeah you can choose really cool you can choose your front-end language so you can don't have to use JavaScript you can use iOS Android you can also customize that entire form the drop-in UI you don't have to use that and all your back-end languages as well and yeah everything's document on the side I can answer questions and yeah that's it anyway now I'm gonna do the talk yeah so tonight I'm gonna talk a bit about Mongo which I should have put a slide in for but I didn't yeah so tonight I'm gonna talk about Mongo just how I've used it in the past so previous to this I'm a full stack dev I've been working and before being a developer I was a analyst so I was working with Oracle MS SQL anyone worked with the MS SQL before my sympathies just sorry the thing that bug me the most is you can never do the limit it was like well I think you can now kind of but yeah you'd have to bring back top and you know but yeah that's basically what they've been to Mongo was I was working in digital agency world which I don't know if many of you from digital agencies like sales rules the world and literally that's where Mongo has basically saved me and why the title why I've got the title tonight digital agency world is a wonderful place I liked the chaos organized pay us is to call it but I was senior developer before this at a few different agencies and sales rule the world because small agencies sales runs everything so they would always come back with these wonderful requirements of things they know making buttons different colors and redesigning the world every time I'd have to read a plan out little social media agency whereas where I first started using it we started selling Facebook apps this is back in 2011 everyone remember Facebook apps when that was a thing so we saw their first one in 2011 was like a sign-up now or something and like literally me and the front-end developers sort of threw it together in a few hours because digital agency and we use my SQL which is great did the job got off the ground and then they came back and said no no okay now we want another one for this client and then this client and this client and this client before we knew it like we had all these all these sort of things piling up the poor my skill database just could not cope so we had standard schema like we just literally put up a table had app ID equals you know auto increment column app title some basic config which was getting bigger every time we had a new version of the outcome out because oh now we need size knowing image yeah it was it was growing and then for every app there was a different set of requirements to store data so you would get at one table one at two table two which is different to table one because it means to do this stuff and then this stuff and this stuff and it just grew sales went nuts so started off with one app and before when yet we had you know 25 words or less we had signed up now to win this we had a whole plethora of apps that they were selling so we ended up with that data everywhere which at some point you kind of stop and go you know hey this isn't going to scale like we're in trouble it's gonna start sinking of course Mongo to the rescue so I started poking around in no SQL world which is awesome because literally Mongo you can throw anything you want at it like you create like a top-level branch you can start storing like huge amounts of amounts of arrays and most languages love arrays so literally you know take an array dump it straight in get data back from Facebook for the user throw it straight in Mongo you've got to be you know to keep doing API calls it's it's great of course there's normalization issues but we'll get to that Mongo server so the times that I have had to set up a server to support Mongo and I do my own sysops because I like playing in my own playgrounds and I want to use shared hosting because that's someone else's playground yeah you need a really good server to run will go like last time I set it up I got it running on a AWS medium instance but you could quite easily like scale that to large and like go really beefy you could not run another small server I've tried they are very resource hungry they will chew memory like lollies like they're literally candy they will they will literally need a really good server to run it on the upshot is dynamic collection so yeah literally you create a top-level branch your branches become the schema so in Facebook Facebook app example what I was doing was I'd have a Facebook branch just in case we decided to branch out branch out branch out and move into Twitter apps which I actually did end up doing an Instagram apps which I also ended up doing but it meant I could keep everything in its own little collection so I could have a Facebook branch I put config for the app that it was it was using in the app side and then I could do things like layout so if we had a dynamic draggable interface so user could drag a block in resize it all the variables from that the XY the all the positioning or the sizing or the app or the module configuration all stored in Mongo is amazing literally anything I threw at it Mongo could come up and keep on kicking so once a user actually interacted with one of the apps that we're building again I could store very similar top-level branch schema in a user record transactional whole other story we'll get to that I have actually got a way to do transactions you can do it but you know we'll get to it so yeah sort of in a Facebook branch app ID reference just to keep things nice and tidy and then whatever data they generated they filled in their name and address and 25 words or less or whatever the game was we could throw it in Mongo was all stored somewhat normalized but we could do some basic reporting across all the different variations and then more customized reporting as we needed to then I moved on from there and ended up working for Clemenjo which is a really sort of big agency sort of a well-known agency in agency well-planned but working for doing work with big name companies like Samsung Diageo the Diageo is like the parent brand for a whole bunch of alcohol companies bullet whiskey they do there's vodka companies there's all different drinks companies so they wanted to have some type of way to track again social media because it was it was big back in these days well that was a year ago industry moves fast but yeah they wanted to track influences in different industry types so they wanted to have users that I could track through system that I ended up developing and then find out whether they're saying positive negative things about a brand whether they were an advocate for the brand so that we could identify users that they could approach and give free experiences to or sort of help them promote the brand the company so what I started doing was watching profiling users and of course the best database to do that was Mongo I needed something dynamic I needed something I could throw transactional data into and then continually reanalyze that data knowing that I was dealing with sales that was going to come up with like every other change to the system every other week storing data at a transactional level so that I could reanalyze the data on mass and then find out different things in different ways was the biggest win so I could grab an entire user's public Facebook I could grab Twitter I could grab whatever whatever we wanted to watch and store in a similar way and then run like a sentiment API over the top so basically I could grab user level granular data transactionally per platform beta website be whatever social media process that data in different ways it could be that we're looking for particular sentiment words particular tones of sentence structure we grab that data run through various API is various various other system external systems bring back some type of scoring or some type of analytical reference and then normalize that data back to the client so we could say here's your top three you know people that we uses social media users that you should target here's what you should do for them here's top 20 maybe do a party for them like we were able to use this data all because of Mongo we have a story we're able to analyze it we were able to report on it again I kept it very simple I'm self taught with a lot of this stuff so this is just how I got it to work but obviously it different for different user cases it may be different at the end of the day I was in the seat I have to make it work it works well it was it but yeah very very similar structure so campaign brand and then I grabbed social media feeds I could have easily taken the print the brand campaign out just had a Facebook branch then dumped all that in but I could have been watching different things for different brands for different reasons and I wanted to keep it super super dynamic just because I like the challenge and Mongo can do it so I wanted to tie it back to something e-commerce because I am the advocate for paper-brain tree I thought it before but yeah transactional funny it was mentioned early so I thought Uber great example like they do a lot of data I know they do a lot of data because they have some really good servers on the brain tree side of things so Uber uses brain tree those are don't know Airbnb github they all use brain tree if it was me running setting up their database this is how I do it so use the collection I'd have in the car because they have different experiences they have helicopters now in New York they have bikes in some places like this they're gonna expand like it's inevitable keep things nice and simple have a main branch so you can build on it have a config I'm going to store the brain tree token so if I was putting with brain tree you can store the one I did earlier the example did earlier was just a basic transaction you can store credit card inside the brain tree vault for those that have used Uber first thing you do when you set your profile up capture your credit card then you set up your profile when you do that stores it in the brain tree vault you get a token back and then whenever you need to transact against the user you reference the token trigger the transaction user never has to put their credit card back in again unless it expires or they want to update it or otherwise just transact against it and then a branch for transactions so I just got in different Uber transactions added transactions added transactions added you can do transactions in arrays interacting with that and as we're saying before taking data back out it's a whole other story that gets a little bit tricky putting data in the mongo is extremely easy like getting rid of data from mongo that's a whole other thing that's kind of me but I'm open to questions and I do like memes so you can comment on what means it never showed right but yeah any any questions hopefully that was somewhat useful that was just how I've used it in the past and yeah kind of it works it worked really well I'd love to use it again it's I don't think it suits every scenario those are just the scenarios I used to do in some cases you are going to use my skill just because it makes sense like you you'll have it on the server you'll have a very light app you won't have the need for the dynamic you'll need the structure the thing I don't think mongo is still does very well and I've been using it for a while since the early days it doesn't do group by so you can't aggregate data easy I think it still struggles with that I mean you can do it map reduce it's a thing it doesn't really do it well otherwise you'd be grouped by in your code so you've been back a whole chunk of data then you sort of aggregate it and spit it out from there so you're talking about using mongo and AWS yes I've looked at those and also you originally set it up in racks space under a lamp stack previously under it was a red hat built but yeah we'll see is it under a pin to and I've run some local instances and stuff but yeah I have looked at some of the pre bake services I was cut the type of senior developer lead tech lead that liked to build my own playgrounds because I had full control over all the things but yeah of course that that means I mean waking up at 4 a.m. to fix servers and stuff that's all but yeah I have looked at some of the other those services are good providing they scale with you and the reason why I would I choose mongo for my project is I needed something that would scale quickly if needed did you never know if something's going to take off you know take right off and you gonna have millions of years of I mean that's as a developer that's kind of my ideal scenario like I build stuff for two years is but potentially to know with the whole questions fine cats with lasers oh we have work sorry what was that I like trying a whole bunch of different like I've tried other databases as well I still longer for large projects kind of make sense if you need something dynamic if you need something really structured that makes more sense as well there are configurations where there are times when you need a hybrid so if you wanted to do reporting on so the mongo data you can run a process store it on mongo transport all over to my SQL and have like a structure environment to play with it in you can do the reverse of that as well I don't think you would but you can do the reverse of that as well but yeah I mean there's always new technologies coming maybe someone will come up with like a semi structured version of mongo at some point in the future that wouldn't really make sense but they might cats with lasers right anyway that's me I'll be around I have some stickers don't read all my stickers but I have some stickers to come see me after thank you