Okay, I welcome everybody. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm the co-mentainer of the Linux kernel. So graphics subsystem beforehand. I was maintainer for quite a while for the Intel driver. I'm working for Intel's open source graphics center. And I'm going to talk about everything great about upstream graphics. And for context first, obviously this title is only relevant because 10 years ago I saw. Things were most definitely not everything great. So 10 years ago, we just about a bit more than 10 years ago, we emerged the graphics execution manager, which is like the first attempt Linux has ever seen as something resembling a remotely modern memory manager for graphics, which is the kernel mode setting, which is a bit of a label swindle because there was already kernel mode setting in the form of FBDF. This was kind of kernel mode setting for kind of big desktop GPUs with OpenGL integrated. So we just started this entire FBDF versus DRM struggle on total confusion about which mode setting and whether you actually want. They were probably celebrating OpenGL for two, like five years behind the industry. So it was pretty depressing. If we scroll forward to the day, the kernel, the graphics subsystem in the kernel is like 10% of the kernel plus user space. So it's one of the biggest subsystem there is in the kernel. So from nothing to kind of the biggest thing, or one of the biggest, we have 50 full atomic mode setting drivers, which is kind of the latest and greatest and display user space APIs that we support. Which is kind of fun because I've done a similar talk two months ago at Plombers and back then the number was 50. So we do merge these drivers at a pretty brisk pace. On the user space side, we support all the latest and greatest stuff nowadays with OpenGL, Geolias, Vulkan. And I think that the most impressive part really is we've taken these desktop mode setting and memory management ideas and cut them down until they were so tiny that they were tiny enough for the tiniest embedded stuff. So now we have the smallest full display atomic driver that we have is less than 250 lines, including white space and curly braces and the licensing comment. And the biggest one we have is like 2.2 million lines of code. Probably bigger by now. I didn't recheck that number. So we have like a factor of 10,000 between the smallest and the biggest driver. So yeah, that's that smallest driver. I mean, it's not a joke. It has hot-on-pluck support. It supports the full atomic user space API with compatibility layers on top for the old legacy atomic that we've merged 10 years ago. And it supports FPDF with all bells and vessels. It uses depth and memory management so that everything just gets cleaned up and the things get shut down. It has DMA buff import-export support so you can actually like render on a GPU and then display on this.  Like display it there and the kernel will do all the synchronization so you don't start displaying before the thing is or copying the buffer to the panel before the thing is actually rendered and user space just queues it all up and can forget about it. I just have suspend resumed which would be a grand total of two more functions and probably like five to ten lines of code. I guess the people who wrote this just didn't need this. So I do think like the upstream graphics subsystem has fully arrived in the embedded world for like tiny displays in tiny drivers. So let's look at that. All the things it took to get there. I think one of the most important things is this new atomic mode setting API which instead of like an entire forest of IOC-TLs to set up your display you have like this one atomic IOC-TL and you say here's all the changes you want. I want today for the next frame here's all the composition changes all the color management changes with all the red buffers do it. So the cool thing of this atomic method API is also the motivation for it to really span from embedded. We have lots and lots of scan up planes for low power use cases like displaying a video embedded in a browser window where you want to use a special plane for this video and phrase everything else up to the big desktops where you have lots and lots of outputs and the problem more is like how can I configure like the three four screens and outputs that I have without getting past the hardware limits. We added like blending the added right back so you can freeze down your composition and can use your display as a composition engine which is a lot more power efficient than rendering stuff with GLE else. Color conversion gracefully handling link failures nowadays like if you plug in a display port cable there's an entire computer on that thing and it fails and we can now tell the user space that if sorry something broke please try again or you need to like reduce the resolution change your desktop or we even have like content protections or Netflix works on Chrome OS and pretty much everything else. So this is the user space API which has made a tremendous improvement and kind of helped us unify between the fb def embedded build and the big desktop build where the kind of the graphics people or at least where I started personally and managed unified as well. But all if you have such a massive user space API are you don't write this in t150 lines of code. So what we also have is lots and lots of kernel internal helpers that help you break down this complexity and allow you yet to write a driver that implements this full featured API in very few lines of code. So there's the entire mode setting helpers for this atomic framework which is designed to be very model or so for example if you're a big desktop GPU maybe to suggest that the implementation flow or commit flow how you program the whole bit doesn't fit for all the different outputs. So you rewrite that for your driver but maybe your desktop GPU is very simple playing hard there. So we just reuse that and you're good. And on the flip side maybe you have a special sequence before you enable the plane so you can add that. So it's very flexible and most drivers kind of use something between maybe a few functions from that library to just use it completely. Then on top of that and this is what allows the school party track with the tiny driver is kind of the simple display pipe helper which takes I mean because if all you have is a panel where you just upload the next frame you don't need all these features. You don't have right back. You don't have entire color management and adjustment pipeline.  So we have the simple display pipe helper which takes all the super flexible atomic user space API and breaks it down to you have one thing and here's your update function. This is allowed us to when you take an old FPDAF driver from the FPDAF system and convert it over to atomic with all the helpers for outputs for EDID pausing on this simple display pipe. Those drivers actually shrink by usually a factor of two to four. So nowadays kind of the subsystem that started with big desktops is better at embedded than the subsystem that started at embedded. The self-refresh helpers I'm going to talk later on about it and you get full feature of FPDAF emulation with like one line. So including B blank support so that your proprietary Mali non-open source user space driver can just directly render into your frame buffer. It all works. Lessons learned from atomic. So atomic is kind of like a database.  And the traditional way to do that is you start committing and then you roll back and someone is going to forget that one register right or something and making sure it all works looked like very fragile design. We tried to do that in some prototyping. Instead of what we're doing in atomic is the entire state update is a complete new copy of the entire driver state. So for every scan out engine for every hardware plane for every output we have state structures or they're completely freestanding. So rollback is just you free a bit of memory and you're done which makes it very safe. And it also makes it a lot easier to catch a driver box in review because in atomic we also allow user space to just ask with this work which is needed because generally you first need to think about your composition like what are you going to use the display harvest or what are you going to composite with the GL engine. Obviously as much as possible with the display because that's more power efficient. And then once you've made that decision then you start rendering with the GL engine and then you do the actual commit to hold there. And if the third step fails you screwed because you've already done all the rendering assuming it will work out. So we have this atomic check. Check only our mode which just tells you what does work. Yes or no. And obviously this is not allowed to change any driver state or any hardware state. And by having these completely freestanding state structures we make it a lot easier to catch kind of bucks in this area. I said already like making the helpers as modular as possible so you can pick and choose that has been really good. I know the thing we did. So the model in atomic is you have objects which kind of represent things in your hardware and then properties which is things you can change and then value. So it's triples. But semantically they're all strings or a lot of them are strings like enumeration thingies. But for encoding we just have triples of unsigned integers. And the encoding and de-goading is all done in the core which I think helps a lot in kind of forcing standardization. So the driver never sees kind of these funny values. It only ever sees C structures where you can use real enum types in C or where you instead of having an object ID you grab a reference for that object and you fill in the pointer. And so all that bookkeeping is not in the driver code. They were also solving the locking entirely in the core. So if the driver for example has two outputs and you can share planes between them. For example we have four here and four on the other and now user space wants to use eight on the other. It needs to grab the state from the second pipeline so it can reallocate these planes. And obviously this needs a bit of locking because user space in the second thread might also want to do something over here. And for correctness the way the locking works is the driver just asks for the state objects in its atomic check function. It tries to compute whether this is possible or not. And internally every time we grab a new state the atomic core takes care of all the locking and the deadlock avoidance which is kind of a complicated thing because we essentially do graph locking as the only subsystem in the kernel. So this state getting might fail because we can't get the lock and you need to kind of retry. They'll be not so great as we definitely need new tests. So starting in the beginning this year this is now mandatory. We have a user space test suite and we should have proper user space API specs for all these properties which we need to do sooner than later. But it's not yet mandatory. It's not yet quite clear what's the best way to do this. Case study for a helper is like self refresh and manual upload so you have a panel and it has its own frame buffer and it does nothing. And every time you want to change something you need to manually upload the changed area of your frame buffer to the panel. And a somewhat similar concept is self refresh where if you continuously send frames you switch the modes to not sending frames. And obviously the trouble is anytime something changes you need to make sure that the update gets to the panel in both of these cases and you're not just showing the same frozen screen because you stopped updating. And there's lots of entry points. There's the FBDF emulation that you might need. There's the old KMS kernel mode setting. There's the new atomic interface. And what we're doing is with the damage tracking helpers we kind of provide the driver a unified entry point. So from the driver point of view like you rower up the damage tracking thing and all these user space APIs look the same. Obviously you can overwrite them if there's some legacy compatibility thingies. And user space can even tell you like I just changed this tiny part of the screen. Please don't lay up like that if you can. The same with self refresh.  So we have a help which keeps track of that like switches everything back on again as soon as activity kicks in. And essentially the only thing besides like plugging that helper implementation into your driver is in your panel's enable and disable function. You need to check whether you're going in self refresh mode or not and not shut down the panel if it's just self refresh. So essentially all this complexity is all in the helper code and the actual driver implementations is like one T handful lines of code. We have more awesome stuff here. Again all motivated by SSCs and embedded systems making the drivers more modular. We have breaches which are kind of transcode of thingies because everyone uses the same HDMI transcode more or less. We have panel drivers because they all have kind of different quirks. So you can have a generic driver and just plug in your panel driver with DT and we have quite a bit of support for more general components so you can stitch together your driver with kind of the standard Linux RMSock DT approach with the device tree burnings. There's also a lot of ongoing work in this area with trying to manage the state for these bridge chips better integrated better with atomic maybe expose it or like allowing you to chain these breaches kind of just generally more flexibility. We've had quite a bit of work in making hot unblock work. It's mostly really useful for development so you unplug your panel and plug in the next one into your SPI bus like it's good if the kernel doesn't freeze and at least for display only drivers this works now or on the render side we still have a lot of like a lot more kind of data structures that are shared with other drivers like for zero copy and all that or the reference scanning isn't quite correct yet and related to that are everyone loves to use the device managed allocation and and everything else APIs. The problem is that the user space visible data structures have different lifetime rules than your physical device and most drivers get this wrong so the way it's slow in the process of providing equally simple support but with the correct lifetime rules. So that's all the display stuff. There's obviously also rendering like GLM and things and in the kernel we have an entire bouquet of APIs created over the last 10 years to make not just zero copy work which is what DMA is for but make zero copy and synchronization and user space just submits an entire queue so you could do stuff like decode a new frame on your impact decoder and video for Linux that's at least that I think it's not quite managed there yet or pass that to like your OpenGL render block do something with it and then pass it to the display and the kernel using these DMA reservation and DMA fences behind the CEO behind user space makes sure that all these operations are ordered correctly so that they don't start before the previous one has completed which in extreme cases creates a graph locking problem where someone starts here and starts locking buffers and driver states and someone starts over here and then they meet in the middle and doesn't work so we have this weight band mutex stuff in the kernel in the core kernel actually which allows you to solve generic graph locking problems they can just have arbitrary set of buffers or whatever you want and just lock them in any arbitrary away and it does reliably detect deadlocks and get you out of a bind. This motivated by Vulkan are the DRM sync objects which is kind of these DMA fences for ordering concurrent things in a kind of more modern way that that fits into the spirit with Vulkan. If you do all that sharing drivers also need to agree on what the data actually looks like there's no reasonable or useful standard in that so in the graphic subsystem we created our own 4cc standard which is officially used by OpenGL, EGL and Vulkan and we have modifiers for stuff like tiling formats or frame buffer compression so the ARM frame buffer compression is now supported by quite a lot of drivers so you can not just do serocopy but you can do serocopy of compressed data and so saving more memory bandwidth and so this is kind of all the the user space relevant pieces we also have a lot of helpers for implementing these drivers a scheduler, a TTM is kind of the memory manager or one of the memory manager which is a bit monolithic and they're seeing a lot of refactoring we have VRAM helpers so for kind of the old chips that still seem to survive which have a little bit of onboard video memory although I think most of that is moving just to the panels but not always so you can manage that and then the S-MAM so the shared memory helpers which is for all the all the SOCs that just use normal memory and as usual like on the display say batteries included now obviously a graphics stack is not just the kernel or there's also lots of lots of stuff going on in user space so the big things there is the gallium layer that we have for writing GL drivers so GL especially on the desktop GL side a bit less on the GL ES side is a very old very quirky API and this this gallium thing essentially takes that and breaks it down to something that looks a lot more modern a lot more kind of almost like Vulkan where you just have constant state objects and nothing changes anymore and the driver can just write these these commands to hardware and becomes a lot more simple we have a huge compiler framework called NER which very creatively stands for new IR so new intermediate representation anyway and this is used by all the GL drivers we have reverse engineering tools which at least for some companies seem to be better and more powerful at documenting hardware than what the real hardware companies have and Cron ask the the industry standards groups that's defining GL and Vulkan and GL ES and all these standards they're also opening up so they have an open source test suite for conformance testing you you can do buck reports so in the in the user space side I would also say lots of great infrastructure and and good movements to its open driver so specifically for SOC since this year across the kernel and the the Mesa 3D user space stack we have mostly reverse engineered but drivers for pretty much anything you can buy in SOC from the tiniest Vivante course which still don't have an IOMMU or anything else really up to to kind of the the big SOCs that IMD and Intel are shipping all all these drivers use the gallium framework so even Intel has has now switched over to that and I think one of the most interesting stories that's happening right now is there's a Vulkan driver for AMD hardware the the Rad V driver which is not developed by AMD because the AMD one is kind of closed source throw stuff over the wall open source whereas this one is developed by customers and community and OSVs are plus the ACO again very creative name is just the AMD compiler which is a new compiler based on this nerth thing it's really it's a very small team like about a handful of people all of customers who use this like Wolf is using this on their steam machines steam boxes with Linux and they're baiting AMD so just to show that that how how good these helpers and all this code is in user space or it's it's competitive against an entire company so maybe short interlude because it's it's a frequently asked questions why why do the kernel people insist on open source user space uh one is it's it's just a technical necessary necessity and other subsystems like rdma and I think media is also moving that way that create a lot of user space api agree you can't review the kernel side if you don't see the user space and the other thing is also it's a bit of cake and eat it to have your cake and eat it to your situation I mean from the upstream a customer value standardization on the if you want to do lots of or then the value at in in your close source user space it's kind of you want to have it both ways what just doesn't work uh so the the recommendation and that's that's officially okay with everyone is if you want to do special sauce vendor lock in uh in in in one driver you know in your close source driver you can just do that but we still still require uh an open source implementation for the user space api and so for pretty much all these chips for sscs there's now a dual stack implementation so if you're asked the right people in those companies with the right questions they can give you both a fully open source user space or uh like the close source kind of standard sometimes more standard all driver running on top of upstream uh which leads us to the next thing so how do you ship this because like in abstract I promise it's not just awesome upstream you can actually ship this and uh recommendation I would say is definitely just do a dual stack with close source and open source user space uh both running on the one single upstream kernel driver and then there's still the problem for back polling because upstream is just not used often enough like everyone's hanging around on lts kernels that are at least two years old on the recommendation there is don't backport the driver that leads to manners because then you first spend refactoring the driver and making it really small and using it all the all making sure it uses all the helper functions and then you you you need an equally big backport team that reacts all the crap it's just pointless so backport the entire subsystem that's pretty much what everyone does and from what I'm understanding the android kind of stable kernel interface thing the GKI I think it's called will also switch that to that model so every time android adds new kernels they'll backport the latest upstream DRM subsystem to all their supported kernels so that you don't have to like live evolved stuff or also nice stuff going on on the testing side or we have lots of in kernel unit tests so we're very much looking forward to K unit finally having landed so we can convert them over to something uh uh more standardized be using the ITG GPU test saw um test suite which is going to a cross driver test suite and user space to validate and as I mentioned for any new user space API having having validation test suites in there is now required to to kind of help make sure that all the drivers implement these interfaces the same way for validating we use CRCs from the hardware so you can render in software and then you can like put the YUV plane somewhere and render it using hardware planes and we compare the two CRCs uh to to make sure everyone implements it the same way and right now uh unfortunately not all hardware has a CRC support some have right back which is more powerful so right now there's there's patches on the review for IGT uh to add uh validation with right back uh I think we also have a pretty great uh community uh they're switching over to GitLab so mailing list of that at least for everything except the kernel for the kernel it is a bit uh stalled on infrastructure work but the idea is very much that at least pull requests from subsystems will will use GitLab long-term with nicely integrated CI and I do think we will at least run experiments with opening up GitLab pull requests kind of nice modern integrated review code change and CI solutions for for contributors our conference which is called XTC is is also nicely growing and the going full professional now we have sponsors since since last year or slight outlook or DMA buff heaps uh which formerly or still called ION is in staging is is getting destaged on I'm hearing it's happening real soon now that's I think in version seven or so so hopefully one of the next kernel releases this will have happened uh there's a lot of work going on uh and kind of user space allocators I mean it's it's nice if you in theory can share compressed buffers with zero copy between drivers but if no one can figure out that this is possible uh it's it's a bit of a tough sell on the current solution I think with Android is you just hard-coded in Growlock uh doesn't work so well on desktop and doesn't really great design for for SOCs either so there's this quite a bit going on there and another thing that's not really in patch form yet uh there's but lots of discussion going on is uh integration with kind of the media side which is solving a lot of the same problems around buffer ferments and sharing buffers and integrating in all into an overall pipeline there sometimes they have a nice solution or sometimes like the the display side the DRM subsystem side has has a better solution or kind of more experience and it would be nice to somehow figure out how we can get these two subsystems to to work together a bit more closely but the details are I think entirely up in the air how how they look like so summary uh DRM the the graphic subsystem in upstream uh it scales by a factor of 10 000 from the tiniest to the biggest uh I really think like nowadays we have batteries included for everything or for shipping I would say that the standard is a dual stack you have your one single upstream kernel driver uh for GL and GLES and you have for dual stack in user space with a reverse engineered mostly most often reverse engineered uh driver to kind of justify the user space API and uh the close sort of stack with all the value at and uh for shipping second point is you just backpull the entire subsystem that's what everyone does and that's it I think we have maybe no time for questions but perhaps if there's a very short one otherwise thanks a lot for listening


. They're reputable. So I just I don't understand why the dnc would choose some polls Over others. It's almost like they have an agenda and they're trying to shut out candidates Who they don't like and we all know tulsi gabard is Hated and loathed by the establishment because she bucked party orthodoxy when she resigned from the dnc in 2016 in order to endorse bernie sanders and at that last debate she single-handedly Killed kamala's campaign kamala is hanging on by a thread. So they don't want Tulsi gabard to get in there and you know throw that death blow to kamala harris at the end of the day I feel really bad for tulsi gabard supporters here And I feel bad for tulsi gabard because she's been working her butt off to qualify and then this happens arbitrarily so but I mean look this isn't surprising it happened to my gravel and We're seeing this happen again So this is why you have to be hyper vigilant and always keep an eye on the dnc because They have an agenda. They don't want grassroots funded candidates to be included in the conversation because they know that anyone who poses a threat to the status quo or speaks out against the status quo Is someone who would hurt their bottom line ultimately and with candidates like bernie sanders He has so much support that they can't possibly find a way to exclude him yet based on this arbitrary criteria But for anyone else like maryanne williamson or mike revel or tulsi gabard They will find some reason to exclude them now It's not as clear why maryanne williamson was excluded Based on you know, what she said on twitter just seems like she didn't Reach two percent in enough polls, but with tulsi gabard having reached two percent or higher in 24 polls It's just dirty for them to exclude her. So they're already on thin ice. They voted down a climate change debate Presumably because the members who voted against it wanted to protect joe biden Who has one of the worst records on the environment in that race? Who would only you know have another chance to make gaffes and were the salad on a national stage and heard his numbers more So the dnc, they're never ever going to win back the trust of their voters Um or anyone who would be inclined to vote for the democratic party by doing things like this by going out of their way brazenly To shield other establishment friendly candidates It's grotesque and we absolutely have to call it out and speak out against what they're doing here because this is arbitrary And it's wrong Hello, everyone. I am here with rebecca parson. She is running in washington states sixth congressional district as a democratic socialist And she is here to talk about her progressive political campaign rebecca. Thank you so much for coming on the show I like thanks for having me. I'm excited. I'm very excited to have you on. There's so many great candidates running I can't keep track of even half of them, but it's nice to talk to as many as I possibly can So you're challenging derek kilmer in this district. He's been a representative here since 2013 He is a very establishment pretty conservative democrat And you are running as a non corrupt grassroots funded democratic socialist You're a member of the lgbtq community your platform is absolutely fantastic and your history is absolutely robust So just let us know why you decided to run and um, why you think you are better than derek kilmer Yeah, so we have had this representation since 2013 and before we had represented derek kilmer We had norm dicks who was very similar to derek kilmer and he actually handpicked derek kilmer to run when he decided to retire So we've had about 30 40 unbroken years of exactly the same type of corporate democratic representation and I first started thinking about running after trump won because I thought well if trump can get elected and then maybe If he can get elected president, maybe I can get elected to something and I think it would be a good way to serve and It served served my community. I got more and more interested. I was thinking about it Uh, I actually co led indivisible to coma for about a year and a half and um, I love the indivisible guide I think it's super smart the way it takes the tea party tactics and then applies it To what we want on the liberal or progressive agenda But what I found is that it's pretty difficult when we have democratic Representatives or at least the ones that we do in this area They just don't budge and they'll just give platitudes like Yeah, well, let's get more dems voted, you know vote blue no matter who let's you know get more good dems elected in other parts and You know, my hands are tied.  It's like pulling teeth Yeah, it is And so I started to think about that actually running against Derek Kilmer for the seat and all around the district You know, it's a large district includes the entire living peninsula, which is the northwestern most part of Washington state Includes Tacoma where I am as well. So it's a very big area. It includes a national park and forest and But all over the district and the rural and urban areas are progressives who Are really tired of this representation And of him not listening to us and not supporting the policies we want And not only is he does he take a lot of money from corporate interests, including wall street defense healthcare Pharmaceuticals real estate lots of these industries which are devastating our district because you know, we're struggling with Addiction homelessness rising rents People being pushed out of their housing and in the urban and rural areas we have the same problems that we're facing these these really big issues and You know, not only is he a corporate democrat, but he's chair of the new democrats Which is the third-way centrist caucus of conservative democrats in congress And it's just you know, nothing We're not going to get the chair of the third of the third way, you know new democrats in congress To cosponsor medicare for all or the green new deal just not gonna happen And I actually heard from some activists who met with his staff recently In district They asked him, you know, they were asking about the green new deal They asked the staffer and the staffer said no, he's not going to cosponsor it So we got an answer on that medicare for all. We've just been getting a lot of Prevarication and kind of putting us off and stuff and you know, we just really really need these policies here You know in the olympic peninsula, we had the timber industry for years and years and the company's just kind of You know de-forced a lot of land extracted the profit and then left and it left behind this gaping hole and One of my friends there on the olympic peninsula the way she puts it is if a community could have ptsd This is what it would look like And you know addiction homelessness suicide Unemployment, you know, there aren't many jobs the jobs that are there don't pay well You can't work 40 hours a weekend live And there are for example Aberdeen, which is where Kurt Cobain was from that's in my district And the town has 16,000 people a thousand of them are homeless So one in 16 people are homeless. It's just a gigantic problem And the same in Tacoma, you know There's we have an addiction problem here as well There's one detox facility in the entire city that takes medicaid. It's almost always full You know, I think the two number one things we can do to address You know successfully address the addiction epidemic here and maybe in other parts of the country as well But like definitely here where I've been talking to Voters and residents Is a number one medicare for all so that people can get drug treatment detox and ongoing mental health services They can get clean and stover and stay clean and sober Um, so I'll say actually three things and the second one is housing as a human right So I support national rent control as well as a massive investment in public housing Which I think will go a long way towards eradicating homelessness And then the third thing is a federal jobs guarantee Which um, I think is extremely important economically that everybody should be able to work 40 hours a week and afford to live And it should be a you know, $15 plus living wage union job But the other thing that's great about the federal jobs guarantee is that it addresses the pervasive despair That's all over the district like well What's the point like i'm just going to grind out the rest of my life Working two or three part-time jobs because no employer will hire me full time because they want to avoid giving me benefits You know, so grinding it out at these jobs barely making it like despair really sets in hard With that, you know, we you know that you have that to look forward to for your whole life And if people have a federal jobs guarantee where it's like if you want a job you can get one It's going to pay well You know where you don't have to spend more than 30 percent of your income on housing And you can have you know vacation every year and raise your kids and pay for the things that you want and need Like I think it'll just go Such a long way to giving people lives that they don't feel the need to check out of So those are some of my policies and and why i'm running And it's really nice to hear you talk about all of these solutions like you have answers For all of these problems that are originating in your community due to you know, largely corporatization And what's interesting, you know, one thing that really stood out to me on your website because I can kind of relate is that you kind of stress You know, washington state is one of the bluest states in the country if not the bluest but yet the representation coming out of there It's just it's corporate democrat. It's mealymouth is centrism And so it's really nice to see a ton of different progressives really rise up I mean joshua collins is running in denny hex district We have sarah smith and there are a plethora of others and you know as someone who is in a neighboring state I kind of feel the same way whereas now we have a challenger to earl blooming hours So it's just a matter of you know, it's time that we get the representation That actually lines up with the priorities of the people in that district So it's nice to hear you just list all of you know, these things just right away that will solve so many problems Because I just I just feel like people in congress they get comfortable They really as you stated he was hand selected by his predecessor and We need people who are going to represent their actual constituents and be attentive To the details, you know in the community the problems in that community And for you you have such a robust history like I kind of just want to go over some of the things Um, I can't possibly list all of it, but you have such a unique record here Just in terms of an activist. So you were a human rights observer in the zapatista village in mexico. That is incredibly fascinating to me You worked with genocide scholars and you really see that, you know care for human rights reflected in your platform You um, you were a teacher and then one thing that really struck me was you said that you know You saw firsthand how zip codes really reflect the quality and type of education that you receive So talk a little bit about your background and what you think kind of Propelled you to this position that you're in now where you identify as a democratic socialist Like what do you think in your life was the most meaningful that really kind of led you to this current path Yeah, there's a bunch of things and and the genocide studies started in college I took a course on genocide studies and it just happened that at my small state school We had a an expert, you know the founder of the international association of genocide scholars So he offered this course in at the undergrad level and it was extremely interesting. It was where I first I think started to learn and understand how the u.s. Military Works overseas what really goes on there And cases where we choose to intervene and those where we don't intervene and why And I then I interned with that organization and I got a scholarship to present a paper at their 2007 conference in Sarajevo and that was I believe the 12th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre Which was the largest massacre on european soil since world war two and Over a thousand or I think thousands of men mostly men and boys But also children and girls were massacred there and every year at least i'm not sure at I am this point anymore if they still are but at that point they were still uncovering the mass graves and so I went I presented the conference and then we actually went to The burial, you know every year they have a funeral for the people that they have dug up and identified And we you know, I stood at the edge of a mass grave and could look in and see Um people bones and clothes and there was a young man there who was about my age And he was translating for us and as he was translating like a single tear was going down his face Because he was from that area and he knew people who had been massacred. I saw that I was like this is what happened when we have Dehumanizing language, you know my professor dr. Gregory Stanton created a framework called the 10 stages of genocide And it shows you the predictable but not inexorable Path that genocide goes along and one of the earliest is dehumanizing and using dehumanizing language calling people vermin pests stuff like that, you know in guatemala. They referred to You know, if we can't fill the if we can't kill the fish. We'll just drain the water And that was referring to like the villages, you know Draining their support outside the villages But when you refer to people as vermin animals past this kind of thing like That's an early stage of what I saw at the very end And so I'm not saying like that's where we're headed here But I'm saying because I can't predict the future. I'm saying it's extremely concerning and um, That was one big thing that has always stuck with me and then through that class I got interested in guatemala because uh, guatemala had a 30 plus year civil war and it was kicked off by our intervention And our intervention is starting a coup in guatemala toppling the democratically elected leader And then during that genocide during that civil war There was a genocide of the mayan population in guatemala and I was interested in learning more about it So that's where I went for a few months to study spanish And then I had heard about this appetistas from some friends of mining college And how they had this kind of self governing society Of indigenous people who had taken power for themselves and it was just fascinating to me So I went they had a language school So I went there for a week till language school and then I did two 10 day trips as a human rights observer in a zapatista village in the jungle Um, because it was good. We weren't using this term back then But the idea was like white privilege, especially white foreigner white american privilege like with the Mexican funded Mexican government funded paramilitaries They're much less likely to uh, they were constantly threatening villages, but they're much less likely to actually do something with White americans and europeans. They're recording So that was I did that and that was just incredible like the zapatistas have drastically lowered maternal mortality rates They've increased the status of women women have much more Stronger rights than they do in the surrounding communities and in mexico as a whole I think They have schools hospitals clinics They're controlled millions of dollars worth of like farming and millions of acres of land and it's all self determined in true democratic fashion like true Uh democracy where they get to choose how they live and it's not just political democracy. It's economic democracy And it's just I got to see Naomi Klein speak there with sub commandante marcos and just incredible her book The shock doctrine was one thing that also like really opened my eyes You know, we invade iraq and then set up mcdonald's I mean Her book is much more complicated than that. But if you want to just put it in that shelf And then um in albuquerque. Yeah, I lived there. I was a substitute teacher and I saw I taught in private schools catholic schools and public schools and I saw how different it is even Within the public school system, you know kids just one or two miles apart have totally different experiences You know one school all the kids are getting free breakfast and lunch and another one They're coming with their nice, you know lunch packed by their parents and stuff and why is that and you know the poverty and uh systemic racism um And then I think in terms of like moving to identifying as a democratic socialist it was seeing Bernie sanders talk about it and then aoc talk about it and her election was just extremely inspiring like I Have been on the email list of justice democrats and brand new congress Since they started and I remembered getting their first emails Back in I guess it would have been early 2017 and being like literally thrilled because like this is where the vision is This is where it's happening.  Like this is really A left progressive vision that's really going to help people and I got the first email From I don't remember which one of the two it was but like hey, he's here's our newest slate of candidates We've just announced and aoc being one of them and when she started to rise I was following her and then she won I looked back through my email inbox. I was like there was that first email where she was just there Like, you know local local organizer bartender, alexandria casio-bortez And then she went on to win and I watched the whole thing happen And it was just incredibly inspiring And isn't it amazing how there's only Like a handful of justice democrats in office and they are the ones who get all the attention They're the loudest they've become the face of the democratic party According to a lot of people which is arguable, of course But just in a matter of a year and not even a year, right? And it's so amazing. So the way that I kind of keep myself from getting too cynical, you know When I just look at things from like a number perspective in terms of corporate democrats versus progressive democrats It's the think of the impact that people have and if we add like just 10 more justice democrats What a momentous impact that would be like we're getting such a powerful little block in congress That we really can like the tea party in a way kind of dictate policy drive the discussion drive political discourse And it really is so exciting to see and what I love is that as I learn about each of these candidates and talk to them And look at their backgrounds Like you can kind of see in their policy platform all of their life experiences reflected there Like I really see, you know a heavy emphasis on human rights in your platform And it's just so fascinating one thing that really stood out to me because I don't see, you know, too many candidates talking about this We have, you know, the standard medicare for all free college and whatnot, but you emphasize something that's extremely important to me So it's ending rank choice or excuse me ending gerrymandering and instituting nationwide rank choice voting Talk a little bit about this because this is so important. This really could be A game changer because if we have electoral reform That would really pave the way potentially for multiple parties like people talk about a third party But I always argue we don't need a third party. We need like Multiple parties. We need five or six parties. We need robust like Political ideologies represented in congress. So why is this something that's really important and a key plank to you? Yeah, I think that's a really good point, you know, and I've heard people say I think it's right that in other countries The progressives and centrists would not be in the same party And we we don't really blog in the same party like we have this to You know, I'm a democratic pco. I support, you know, it's because of democrats that you know, I was able to get married like Absolutely, they are different from republicans in ways that have materially impacted my life But we are also like, you know moderates or centrists compared to me very different on some things and so if we You know had rank choice voting. I think it would really get rid of this kind of A lesser of two evils approach to voting It would let people vote for who they're really excited about It would be much more fair, you know ending gerrymandering is extremely important to me because we just have these absurd districts You know, they go like that and then around and that kind of thing so that they Have the voters they want and also enact voter suppression, particularly Of people of color and black voters. So it's extremely important. Yeah, that's one thing that's really been on my radar and There there was a bill and I'm blanking on the number currently that I believe rocona sponsored that actually did just that like it It actually moved to multi-member districts And I can't remember the number there the district magnitude was like two or three, which is still great Um and did rank choice voting and did gerrymandering and it didn't get a lot of support And I think it's because people don't really know about the specifics like a lot of people Have this idea that if we just organize a third party, that's how we can get it into power But there are real institutional barriers that make that so difficult and passing something like rank choice voting That's really the first step It's not a guarantee because nobody really knows how those institutions will you know, affect party politics and whatnot But it's just it's one of the necessities needed So we can actually have some choices in this country because it like you said We should not have to share a party with centrists, you know, it's Economically speaking, you know Centrist democrats are very much aligned with republicans not of course the same but very close But in terms of social politics and issues related to social justice and whatnot They are aligned more with progressives So we're forced to form this alliance and that makes us a little bit less I think effective because we're always butting heads whereas with republicans, you know, they're all Lined up on everything pretty much for the most part and it's allowed them I think to be a lot more effective not just in terms of Shifting the narrative in the overton window, but elect electorally speaking, you know So let's talk about your platform a little bit more You have a really robust platform But it's going to be difficult to fight for all the things that we need to fix our country So first year I always like to ask the candidates What do you think would be your top two or top three priorities in terms of what you think you can realistically accomplish In the event we're assuming we have a bernie sanders president and you know a democratic senate and house Best case scenario, you know, what do you think you would push for in that first year? Yeah, and that's what my dream is to happen is we have bernie sanders in the white house We have a democratic senate and house and then I think it could really be the start of a new era You know like people who just talks about let's bring in a new era like that's not you're not You're not that new era that center stuff is not that is not a new era A new era is is a democratic socialist president And then like a democratic socialist group of people or caucus or whatever you want to say in congress And then actually, you know sweeping it in like the era of raganism and clintonism and all that is over This is the new new deal and I think it could be so exciting and we could look back on it in history It's like this is when a new tide swept in of like Progressivism to really get stuff done and it completely changed the country And I think it's just so exciting that there are all these candidates around the country running to make that happen and my top three would be The green you deal because that's one of the reasons i'm running, you know people ask Why didn't you choose something more attainable or you know, what makes you think you can do this start small Or if they're you know friends of mine who are just concerned they'll say, you know Like you're a great candidate. That's why I want you to run for something you can actually win And uh, so the reason I think I can win it, you know, I'm in it to win it and I think there's a definite path to victory and One of but one of the reasons that I didn't wait is that doing the traditional political path To make myself, you know deemed viable by the establishment, you know Going through all the steps all the things I need to do that would take much I would get to that point by way past 2030 and we do not have the time for that And representative dara kilmer is not going to support the green you deal and we need action right now Like we need a congress in 2020 that elected in 2020 that is going to make it happen Because that's an existential threat And I think as well I really like that the green you deal includes All these different elements of addressing what's some of the fundamental issues of our country like making sure That it's racially just and that is just from a class perspective as well that it has the federal jobs guarantee So it's great about it And for one of many things that is great about the green you deal is it addresses this existential threat And then it also addresses other extremely serious problems that we need to tackle The next thing We're not next but you know these three Um priority things would be uh medicare for all and true single payer medicare for all not kind of a lightweight plan I'm not going to cosponsor it and then say oh, I don't know anymore. I went to talk in the hamptons And I'm not sure anymore if I like it Like no, I am I am on the board of whole washington Which is a washington state organization fighting to get single payer health care in washington state And we're doing it by initiative We did an initiative to the people and this time we're doing initiative to the legislature And like, you know, we have a very good shot of making it happen. I think we are going to make it happen and um, I think that um, it's great to have this be going on like Dual tracks at the same time nationally and statewide But you know, I'm on that because I don't believe in these kind of halfway solutions You know, that's another reason that it's so urgent is that people are literally dying because they don't have access to health care And that's the thing like you get into congress You get your nice health care and then you deny us what you have You know, you have nice cushy health care and you won't give it to us You won't let us have it because you take hundreds of thousands of dollars From the pharmaceutical industry and the health insurance industry and darry kilmer, you know He's taking money from a big pharma pack The members of that pack are currently being sued for manufacturing the opioid epidemic, which is decimating our district There's one county in my district clown county Where they found that over a six there was a report in the paper recently over a six year period That people were prescribed on average 60 to 70 addictive prescription pills per person And now they have one of the highest opioid death rates in the state, you know, there's no coincidence It's cause and effect and so, you know, we absolutely need Medicare for all that includes vision dental And drug treatment and therapy And mental health And then the third thing would be housing policy I think that we need national rent control And accompanied by a massive investment in public housing so that the rent is stabilized, but there's also enough units for people Currently there's a shortage. I think of about 12 million units And national rent control is super exciting to me because so far the fight has been local and state And I've been involved in it locally with the Tacoma attendance organizing committee Which formed after a mass eviction and we just have these mass evictions happen in Tacoma with regularity You know developer comes in they buy unit evict everybody in it Usually there were low income on disability in recovery Evict them There many of them become homeless this particular apartment building Two people have died since being evicted and that's one thing that I think our establishment corporate democrats don't understand Is that housing is a matter of life and death If you're in recovery and you go out in the streets that threatens your recovery if you are disabled, you know There is a woman in Aberdeen who I met Who moved to Aberdeen from somewhere else in washington state to be closer to family and she Got to the apartment. She had found it was the only thing she could afford She got there and found it didn't have a ramp for her wheelchair the landlord refused to put one in and he just said never mind I'm just going to use it as an office because he didn't want to put the ramp in And she didn't have anywhere else to live that was the only place she found that she could afford, you know So she went to the bus station Where she was able to plug in her wheelchair and just sat there in her wheelchair for three nights Just sitting there in her chair Until somebody from the station Called somebody at the homeless camp We have a homeless encampment in Aberdeen and there's a guy there who's kind of like the Coordinator he lives there and he coordinates and they had his number they called him and they came and got her but it's like This woman is a senior citizen in a wheelchair In a greyhound station For three nights straight day and night like that's the result of our broken housing system and housing Is for housing it's for people to live in that's its primary purpose. It is not for people to make money off of it's not for speculation it's not for flipping housing is for people and that's what my policy is about and We've had some amazing wins around the country with local rent control and statewide I think that with national rent control we could really fill in some of those gaps like You know centrists make the argument that well in san francisco when they implemented rent control Then the rent just outside san francisco went up That's been disputed whether that study is true or not. I think it might just be you know a centrist a third-way talking point But even if it were true, okay So you're saying that the way one person put it to me was like, okay, we have a leaky bucket That doesn't prove we shouldn't have buckets. It just proves we should fix the holes And what we need is national universal rent control that applies to everywhere in the country And then accompanied with an investment in public housing. So those would be my top three Green New Deal Medicare for all and housing. I like that and When you I first of all, I love the leaky bucket analogy But it sounds like that person is making the case for a national, you know housing and rent control type system No, but one thing that really stood out to me on your website because now I think that you and I We're realizing that there are people who know that they have to say they support Medicare for all because It's going to be difficult to get elected when the overwhelming majority of the democratic party base wants it But you have to really differentiate between Who's real and who isn't like tim ryan was on the debate stage, you know talking about how horrible medicare for all is But he co-sponsored primal a giant paul's bill So I love how on your website you put very clearly Medicare for all real medicare for all single-payer no incrementalism like I just kind of like a little applause right there When I saw that because it's it's so important Um, so I I absolutely love everything that you're talking about You've hit your opponent for supporting the tpp Um supporting anti-free speech condemnations of bds So anyone who's in that district, they're going to know that you are the real deal I think to me the real Objective is just making sure that people know who you are and know that you exist because when you present them with this Option between an establishment entrenched democrat who's a centrist and someone who actually cares who's hungry to get in there and fight They're going to choose you over him.  I think that anyone who's watching will be won over The audience already is going to love you I can tell But tell people why it's so important to go that extra step and share, you know information about you Um donate to you and sign up to support you even if you don't live in the sixth congressional district of washington You can still phone bank for rebecca. So just basically make your pitch and tell us what we can do to support your campaign Yeah, and thank you. I appreciate the opportunity So it's really important to share information about, you know, go to twitter, uh, follow me Share my tweets engage. I'm really active on there and I engage with people and it's important because um representative kilmer Is not that well known nationally But he has a very critical role as chair of the new democrats And this is a role that I believe Joe Crowley had about 10 years ago And so it's something that you kind of take on your path to building your career Up into leadership of the house, you know, and I would not be surprised if he's kind of piecing together a career So eventually he can be speaker of the house And you know as chair of the new democrats He has power of the purse over like where you know The new democrats coalition spends a lot of money on campaigns. They funnel it to other centrists He also belongs to the new the no labels pack, which um, there's a washington post headline saying What was it? Um, no, it's not no labels is the pack I think and then the problem solvers is the caucus in congress And the washington post headline was something like critics alleged that the problem solvers have solved few problems It's like, yeah, they Really haven't they've actually caused more problems, you know, except molten as part of them The problem solvers were were behind the push to not have Nancy Pelosi be speaker Which you know, I'm not a huge fan of Pelosi, but she was I think the best choice we had Well, they wanted someone to the right of her which exactly is unfathomable like she yeah, she's already conservative So it's like, what do you what do you expect a republican? Sorry?  It's not like no labels It's just it's the one percent versus the rest of us. That's just the epitome of it. And so I think it's really important because Taking down the chair, you know, me winning and You know defeating the chair of the new democrats would really send a message that the third way stuff is not working And that it's on its way to extinction And that what's really going to work in this country is progressive democratic socialist ideas and In my district as well, you know, Derek Kilmer has name recognition and that's something I need to Really build up and I'm going to do that with a massive canvassing campaign I have lots of volunteers who are reaching out and who are already involved and helping me and are like Just tell us where to go. We're ready. We're going to go do it. We're going to knock every single door in this county Like they're so Ready and they've been waiting and wanting this to happen And so I'm going to be doing a lot of voter contact going to a lot of events and meeting people Which I've already been doing it just been so incredibly exciting Like I'm going off on a tangent a little bit But I was canvassing with a green you deal group which is out Canvassing in borough washington to make sure that the green you deal Is good for borough washington as well as for the cities and we went door to door And after we would explain what the green you deal is we would ask them Show them a list of policies and say if the green you deal happened Which one of these policies or which of these policies would be most important to you? and it was stuff like universal child care federal jobs guarantee Just a laundry list of progressive policies And they would look at it and even the people who said they voted for trump Which we didn't ask them. They would just volunteer it even those people would say well I don't know. It's hard to say because I really like all of these like yes You know, I'm not I'm not targeting my message to try to win over Conservatives I'm targeting my message based on what is best for the people and working class People look at this and say this is what I want And so helping get my message out getting more attention to me Will really help the working class people of this district, which is a very working class district and so You can help me by getting on my email list That's one of the top two things that a candidate needs to do when they're at an early stage like mine you know fundraising and Getting people on their email list so they can stay in touch And you can go to rebecca for wa.com slash humanist and I have a page set up there for Viewers of the show where you can sign up for my email list I that would be the number one thing I would ask you to do and it would be Really really helpful so that I can stay in touch and build my audience and also have back and forth You know like when you get an email from me, you can just respond and that's a thing With a lot of email lists you just get it especially from the d triple c It's like the sky's falling donate money now And you know if you if you write back It's like you're just gonna whatever consultant is writing these bs emails is not going to write back But you know if you write back to me like you could very well get a response and like I will definitely read it So get on to the list. That would be great rebecca for wa.com slash humanist And then i'm on social media, uh, facebook instagram and twitter at rebecca for wa Um on social media and my site. It's r e d e c c a f o r w a Well, thank you so much for coming on the program again, that's rebecca for wa.com Phenomenal candidate. This is a national movement and we will all be watching this race closely and of course rooting for you because I mean it just like Let me just say this whenever I talk to someone like I can tell within the first five minutes Just how enthusiastic they are and you never see that like from these centrist corporate democrats like these new candidates They're ready to get in and fight and it's just so refreshing to see it And whenever I talk to you guys I get amped up myself I just get excited because it's like finally, you know something is happening all together We are coalescing around this movement and this message and and it's great to see so if you can please support rebecca This is a national movement what she does in the sixth congressional district isn't just going to affect that district This is a national movement. It will help you as well. So please support her and get involved Thank you so much rebecca. It's been a blast. Thank you mike Well, that's all that I've got for you guys today Thank you so much for tuning in if you've made it as far and listened to me speak for that long As usual we can't end the show without thanking all of our newest patreon paypal and youtube members I also want to send a shout out to um anyone who listens to us on itunes and soundcloud I absolutely appreciate your viewership or listenership if you will. Thank you all so much. Um, I'm done talking I don't know what else to say. I'll see you all next week. Take care everyone


It's been 14 days of horror for the over 2 million residents of the Gaza Strip, the Israeli offensive, the all out siege against the Gaza Strip continues. And we've been reporting consistently on how things have gotten from bad to worse in terms of the humanitarian situation that all of the residents of the Gaza Strip are facing. Of course, the pressure is now also building up on the West Bank, but at the same time solidarity is picking up protests in support of Palestine in support of humanitarian aid being allowed to reach the Gaza Strip is gaining momentum, particularly in West Asia and other parts of Asia as well. Here in India, we saw protests. There have been protests in parts of Southeast Asia as well. And our branch will join us today to understand what's happening in terms of aid coming in the possibility of humanitarian aid reaching the people and how the protests also sink in with what is going on and the lack of complete action on the part of the international community. We reported yesterday on how Western leaders continue to come to Israel and continue to voice their support of Israel's right to defend itself. Meanwhile, Palestine, the Gaza Strip, sorry, has been turned from the world's largest open air prison into a death trap. That's our lead story, as it has been since the 7th of October on Daily DP, but we're also covering a protest in Italy. We ask Ana why Italians want access to free public health care and why they are against privatization of many of these services. Salams, you're watching Daily DP brought to you by People's Dispatch before we go any further. Please take a second and subscribe to our YouTube channel. United Nations agencies, including those working on the ground in Palestine, including in Gaza, have said that this is in fact collective punishment, which amounts to a war crime. As far as that is concerned, and whoever it might matter to in the context of international law, it's very different how things play out on the ground. And to give us an update on that, we have Ana Racha joining us today. Ana, I want to start with protests that are picking up gaining momentum solidarity for the people of Gaza, as well as of course the people of the West Bank and the occupied West Bank, because they are also facing the fallout or the ramifications of this onslaught. What's the latest on protests around Asia as well as other parts, including Europe? Well, all the day today and essentially has been building up on what we have seen over the last couple of days. And that's essentially people showing up in massive numbers to support the people of Gaza and of Palestine as a whole in order to call for peace, call for stop to the violence. And just in order to support the Palestinian struggle. So today we've seen protests ranging from over the last couple of days, as I said, they've been mounting up from Malaysia to India, but very strongly building up in the region itself, with of course the protests in Jordan, also building up in Egypt, building up in Yemen and building up in nearby countries. So, essentially the region seems and these the people of the region are converging to the point to ask for justice for Palestine and for a stop to the mounting number of deaths that we've seen since the attacks began on October 7. To the large extent to which the United States and its allies are standing in the way of some of these conversations, proceeding and aid actually getting to people and an end to this endless horror that we're watching. Those of us who are fortunate enough to not be there at present, but you must also be getting reports from hospitals from aid workers on the ground, talking about the kind of impact this has had. And still nothing moving in on that front either. We heard about the 20 trucks or so of aid.  So, I'm not sure what to do except for finding a very bad sense of humor, but it's essentially something that has been brought up in the protests today as well. A large part of the protesters in Egypt have had it to the border with Palestine in order to demand to 48 to actually get going. What we've seen today is that UN officials have said, well, the aid might or should get going in the next day or so. At the same time, officials from UN agencies have called those 20 trucks like a drop in the ocean of the knees that the people of Gaza are seeing. And let's just go back to what we've been saying essentially all alone is that there is a dire need in Gaza right now for everything from food to clean water to sanitation and also when it comes to medicines and when it comes to fuel. So hospitals in Gaza have slowly stopped operating because they have run out of fuel, which means that they cannot operate their generators, which means that a large part of people are now left without essential medical need. And that's something that the West seems, it doesn't seem, but it does downplay the need of the essential supplies to go into Gaza as soon as possible. What's also been reported is that the roads of course that would lead into Gaza have been bombed and now need to be repaired in order for the aid to get in. And then finally, of course, you know, you have the UN officials again saying that and recognizing in that way that Israel has announced certain limitations to the distribution of such aid in order for it allegedly not to get to Hamas. But essentially what it will lead to that the very limited aid that they're planning to get in and then they say build up over the next time over the next days. It's that it's going to get very slowly to the people who really needed and who have experienced attacks on civilian infrastructure, including hospitals, including churches over the last days. A quick reminder, of course, that even before this series of events began on the 7th of October, Gaza was already facing several crises, mass unemployment, food insecurity for as many as over half the population, more or less. Shortages of course of fuel, medicine, staff, workers, an issue that we've talked about so often on the show with Ana and we will also proceed to talk about in our next bit. But before we get there, Ana, you're in Europe at the moment. What is the kind of response because we've seen on social media people quite angry with how large sections of Western media are covering these events, not just from the perspective of course of fake news that is being disseminated because now fake news even comes from governments itself. So you really have no boundaries when it comes to that. But just in terms of the narrative that is being built and the kind of rhetoric and processes of otherizing, treating as subhumans and how that has kind of allowed the world to sit back and watch as some of these insane situations unfold. I think that's a very important question right now for Europe, because we're seeing different things. So, you know, while there is this whole public projection of the Western leaders of the European so called leaders and representatives flying to Israel and then supporting the attacks by the Israeli occupying forces. At the same time we're seeing also mobilizations by the people in all parts of Europe, who are essentially standing up for Palestine. So it's not, I think that what's being represented as a European perspective is not the perspective of the people of Europe. And of course it is true that for many people it's been difficult over the past two weeks to counter the mainstream narrative that has come from governments and is being pushed really aggressively through all channels. That is that Israel is defending itself and that it has every right to do so. But we are also seeing that people are speaking up and that they are using the public spaces that are given to them in order to try and at least push for what is really happening in Gaza, for what is really happening in Palestine. And again, this is not always easy because we know that already France and Germany have imposed bans on pro-Palestinian demonstrations. This is not something that they have done when it comes to pro-Israeli demonstrations. And it's essentially very, there is a climate of people sometimes being intimidated by what they're seeing around themselves and what the governments are pushing as again the European perspective. But on the other hand it's not so there have been massive turnouts in when it comes to protests everywhere in Europe from Spain to Ireland to Slovenia to Italy to the UK. So there are massive amounts of people who know what is going on in Gaza and who are supportive of the people of Palestine. Alright, we leave it there for now on Ghazana but we will continue talking to you because as you were pointing out to us since the 12th of October health rallies have been held in various parts of Lombardi in Italy. And tomorrow there is a big central event that is on October 21st of course being tomorrow. A big central event happening in Milan. The focus is as we mentioned earlier against the growing privatisation of healthcare and to demand the people's right to access healthcare as and when they need it and for what they need it and for free. Most importantly and strengthening health systems to get to that stage and instead of sort of continuing the process of cutting their legs off as we've seen over the past couple of decades. And yes, so we're talking about a series of protests that essentially were announced at the beginning of the month, even a bit before if we look at it, but from the beginning of the month there has been a push in Lombardi to fight against the changes that they have already seen implemented in their health system. And that if it were up to the government of Giorgio Meloni, who is also the government that criminalises people saving migrants in the Mediterranean. Those are the policies that the Meloni government would like to see implemented in the in the rest of Italy as well. And so there has been quite a strong mobilisation since the beginning of October in Italy. If we look back also at the national demonstration that was taken that took place in Rome, where the trade unions together with civil society organisations turned out in, you know, in what was really a huge amount of people who demanded, yes, the respect of the constitution. Yes, to improved labour rights, but very importantly, they have recognised the public health system as something as a key rallying point for the future. And this, you know, it's very related to what they have seen happening over the past years in the public health system. Of course, in Lombardi, it went up to, well, quite a bit of an extent because they have faced an increased introduction of the private sector in healthcare since the mid-1990s. So it's been a very strong push to equalise the public and the private sector. And so now the health activists together with the trade unions again are demanding that this trend is reversed and that there is a return to what was imagined to be a tax-based public health system which cares for everyone for free at the point of receiving care. So what are the sort of likely events, what is the central event about, as in how many people do we expect to gather there and is it also a sort of push against, like you were mentioning, not focusing so much on sort of super-specialised or only, you know, for example, cancer care, but also to look at primary healthcare and the basic needs of building a healthy society first. And then, like you were pointing out, maybe it connects back to why public health has become a central sort of pillar in this entire political struggle. Absolutely. So it has very much to do with how the health system in Italy was imagined to be and how it's looking right now. And this is something that, you know, if you look at the left parties at Poterello Popolo, what they have been warning for, well, for essentially years is that there is a focus, like in many other European countries, on talking about healthcare, about this very high-tech concept of healthcare, when what is essentially missing is the very basics of it. So there's a very weakened system of primary healthcare. There's an extreme shortage of health workers all over the place. As the private sector was allowed in public hospitals and public health centres closed down. So this is something that's supposed to be the first line of healthcare for people. And this is increasingly becoming inaccessible to people in Italy. But right now, because of the policies that were implemented, because of the cuts that were imposed on the health budget for years, there are now millions of people on waiting lists. So it really goes to extremes. Some health activists in Lombardy actually said that, you know, there's for some quite elementary health procedures in that region, there's a waiting list for four years. And that means that millions of people look at the waiting list and they just decide, okay, if I have money, I'll go to the private sector. If I don't have money, I won't get the procedure. So that's, you know, that should be a sign enough of how wrong things are going on right now. Now, what's worrying is that there is no recognition that this has been the wrong trend to take. And what we're hearing about is essentially about pursuing the same policies just went up a bit. So, you know, there has been a decentralization of healthcare already. And this also relates to what I was saying about the closure of the public hospitals and the community health centers. That went hand in hand. And now as the government pursues an even more extreme version of this decentralization and administrative devolution, it means that it would make matters in health worse. But more generally, it would increase the inequalities that already exist between different Italian regions of Italy. So what people have been warning about that, you know, they're already looking at a crumbling health system in the south of Italy. If the policies that the government is pushing for would come true. It would mean that it's, we're talking about two Italy's right now, we are talking about North that either has money or has money to be able to go to private health healthcare providers. And then we have the south with a completely devastated health system. While the idea enshrined in the constitution is that healthcare is the right and that it should be provided to everyone through as a responsibility of the state. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much for your time today. I think we'll bring this episode of Daily Debrief to a close. We're not done for the week yet. So we'll be back tomorrow with another update. We will, of course, be leading with the big story of the times, I think, Gaza, of course. But in the meantime, we have written reports on all of these subjects on our website. It was dispatched.org. Also, give us a follow on social media platforms for updates until tomorrow. Thank you very much for watching.