are here. Are there any additions or changes to the agenda for us? Yes. Okay. Okay. I had an email from Cliff Evans, friends of the Town Hall. He didn't put in an amount but he's asking for some answer funds. Okay. But he didn't say how much. Okay. So, no. So we need to put it on next time once I calculate where we're at. And then I have two other items having to do with trucks.  Right, John? Trucks. Okay. I don't know. I'd like to have you authorize Rick and I to work on filling out this form to for the funding. We already approved the funding. So this is just filling out the paperwork for the truck. So we what are we filling out the paperwork for? It's the loan for the truck that we approve the funding for. Okay. I lost track of where we are on that but there's no where we're at is getting the funding. Fill more paperwork. Right. So can you guys fill out the paperwork and then we can put it on the consent agenda for next time? Does it have to be submitted before this? It really needs to get submitted right off and so how the paperwork got lost in the shuffle somewhere. Okay. We already agreed to the loan. We already agreed. Right. Just filling it out and signing it and sending it. So that's fine. So we're talking about it. Nobody has any problem with this. No. And we'll ratify your. Right. I'll bring back a copy of the signed document on the 27th. So ratifying Denise and Rick completion of loan paperwork for the 2024 Western stuff. Okay. So that'll be on the 27th. Consent agenda. And there's one more thing to do with trucks. The guys went to Viking. Where is it? Where is it, John? Is it New Hampshire? Colchester. To look at some changes to the parts that they need to put on the truck. They removed the need for cameras. $500. There's the addition of a blade. What do you mean? No. The camera systems on it are don't. Like a backup camera. Yeah. They keep this but you can't. They're just not. So you're gonna show the inside of the bed. Okay. That was already in the original bid. Okay. Cut that out. They don't work anyhow. Yeah. Yeah. And it's to change. These are some additions. So it's gonna cost a little bit of money. Change the plow and wing blades. $1,200 undercoating the chassis. There was two options. One was just a regular oil undercoating. And the other one is a 3M Schultz undercoating. It's discussed that it is between an oil undercoat and a bed liner. So it's gonna be a better undercoating of the truck and make the truck last longer.  It sounds like this liner really lasts for some years, the way it sprays on. Am I right, John? The 3M. So it's like the original Landlin that they're good for more than one year. So this is and the carbides that they're ordered. The edges are much better. These also, they sit by us much, much longer. Okay. And the other to be cost savings in the end. Right. And the other two things are to install poly fenders mounted to the body, $1,500. And add two heated work lights on the rear of the truck mounted to the sides of the Pinto plate. So these changes feel like more than we should just be like, you know, sure, go ahead. They're about $5,000. They're $250 and changes. Yeah. But the reason like the real liner, that's to protect. Why do they have to be done? Chipping off. How long is it going to be there, John? You know, they're anxious to get it out there. So if we hold this up until the 27th, is that a problem? Okay. So let's do it then. We all have the documentation because another question I have is I think we've been alerted that we're low in the something related to the highway fund or the highway capital fund or the reserve fund reserve fund. And so, you know, paying extra attention to where it's going to. Right. So I just wanted to bring this to the board's attention and we can do it on the 27th. That's no problem. And then where is the, you guys know the email we got from Wendy? Yeah, I haven't looked at anything yet. So we're going to need to look at it a week ago. Well, she sent one out today too. Another one of the same thing. Okay. So we need to look at the budget and see where this money is going to come from. Okay. But it comes to $5,250. And I mean, I'm not a fan of throwing good money after that. So it's just a question of where it's going to come from. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. These are all really good. That protects the spenders. We have a lot of salt throw by those wheels. We just have to know this keeps that from being thrown up into those places that we just have to know that we've accounted for a sense of where the money's where it's going to come. Right. The same thing with the friends request. They need to give us the amount. Yeah. And I need to see where we're at and how much we spent. We got another $113. Add it to our argument cover the undercoding but yay. Yeah. All right. So what we're all right. So we have information about next meeting. We're not actually endorsing anything fully tonight. We're just acknowledging that you guys are going to do work on the loan paperwork. Right. Which the loan has already been approved. The price has already been approved by the voters. So we're not making any changes to tonight's agenda. Actually. No. It's actually just updates. Okay. And the warrants are anybody else good? Anything that we want to add to the agenda? Okay. So the warrants are circulating. Okay. Are there folks here for public comment on items not on the agenda? Yes. March. I have a question. Should I do it now or should I do it? You don't have that on the agenda so you can come up and articulate your request. Yes. My first question is have you reconsidered signing the permit applications or are you waiting until the next select board? We have not. We have we answered that question at the last meeting. So if your question is whether we reconsidered since then no. Okay. Then I would like to request that we get the applications permit applications back because the Curtis Pond Association would like to submit them with our signatures. Okay. Yeah. Then I have them right here. Okay. And the main reason for that is because we are concerned about how quickly they will be acted on and we want to get them in and guess we've we just recently got back another request on some other thing we did. We want to see if there's any additional things that we need for the application in a timely fashion. So we just are afraid to wait until we must make it. Okay. Okay. Thank you. And the other have you considered who will be assigned? Can you put it on the list for the next select board to read John and Denise have been our liaisons? Yeah, that should be. Okay. We will we will the alcohol will get created. We're creating a we're creating a list and we'll create a new category liaison appointments and I'll add that to this long list of things that they're using as some information around their to do list so that we can get the future agenda items. Yes. Those were the only two things that I want to make sure I brought up. Okay. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Anybody else? Going once, going twice. Oh, it's Stephanie. Oh, hi, Stephanie. All right. Everyone else is here for items on the agenda. Okay. So the first we have our consent agenda item. We did this in two chunks as we sometimes do when someone is recused or recused, yes, from an item. So our consent agenda item number one or consent agenda number one is the shade tree plan, which we talked about last time. And then a couple of re appointments and just to articulate again, March 2023 is not a typo. These were still getting caught up on some we should have done last year. So this is for formally for six weeks, I guess. Okay. And is there a motion? I'll make I make a motion that we improve consent agenda agenda item number one. Okay. There's a motion on agenda number one. Is there a second? Any questions? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. I have the plan here for us to sign. Okay. Yep. So we're signing the shade tree plan tonight. And then consent agenda number two is I let the board know at our last meeting that East Cal State Committee trust ask that somebody be appointed to keep working with them in support of the grants that they're getting from the state, which from the board's perspective involves opening up the portal and saying, yes, no, here's new information. Can I just say that I'm recusing myself from this? And Denise is recusing yourself because she found the board at ECCT. Is there a motion on consent agenda number two? So all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. And Stephanie, we are ready for you on the curb cut. Well, Stephanie's coming forward. I'll just let everybody know that as you know from our last meeting, Stephanie, well, the conservation commission has been working on the curb cut. And the relationship between the curb cut ordinance and the conservation commission is this is a great place for us to do a couple of things. One is delegate work to other smart people. Stephanie being one of those folks in town and the people with you on the conservation commission. But also a great opportunity for us to integrate our values around environmental stewardship with our work that we do in other areas like curb cuts. And Stephanie asked if the conservation commission could take a look at this ordinance when we had it queued up to revisit. And now you're coming back with your suggestions for us, Stephanie. So take it away. Do you want to make to it? You sent it to us. I read the latest version. It looks complicated, but it's not really as complicated as it looks. That is, we tried, we had several goals here. First of all, as I've talked to you about, we wanted to incorporate some environmental protection in probably only occasional situations where there may be an impact on a fan or on the trees or any rivers or the streams or whatever. So I told you I had several conversations with our town attorney and he was very supportive of our doing that. He felt, he and I sat there, we parsed this really ridiculously worded statute, but we really just parsed it apart and thought that we could add environmental criteria. So then I think I told you this, when I was looking at the statute, I mean the existing ordinance, I thought, you know, this could be reorganized better. And so I poked around almost 20 years old. Yes. Yes. It's a very old ordinance. 2004. Yeah. Right. 2004. Right. So it really should have been updated and then Sharon, you had mentioned that that would be, you guys were interested in doing so anyway. So I poked around and I found some other towns, curb cut ordinances and then I found the legal cities and towns has a model ordinance. So I decided to use that, which other towns have done, a lot of towns have done that, use it as a basis. But they also, the league also encourages you to modify it according to your own particular town's needs. And so that's what we did. We tried to set out, we spent quite a bit of time on the process. We tried to set out a process that made that made sense given the various roles. You know, I know that some of the positions are not filled right now, but they will be. And the conservation commission wants to be involved. And also we understand that the select board does not want to be involved, except to this extent that they have to be. And while the statute talks about the select or the select board's delegate, it was our feeling that it's kind of important for the select board to kind of own this thing. And so we tried to set it up so that everybody else does everything, in not you, and then it comes to you in the form of a proposed decision that will have been worked on by a designate of the conservation commission, the road commissioner, the department of public works, the director of public works. And of course, depending on the people and the situation, people's roles will vary, you know, the extent to which they're involved. But we just set this up that way. And then in the end, so and the other thing is, so whatever approval gets issued is done by the select board. And we also, it also looks like maybe unnecessarily complicated is something that came out of the leagues model. And I think really makes sense because there's a built in compliance check. So instead of just sort of, as with most things, just, you know, people issue permits, and that's the end of it.  So instead of, excuse me, it's done in compliance with the conditions under which the applicant was supposed to do the work. So what has, what they suggest? So with this thing called notice of permission to proceed. So you start, they start out. So there is a document. There's a document. It would be, instead of what we usually think of as the permit, and then everybody goes away and nobody ever looks at it again, there's this notice of permission to proceed. So all the work is done. That is, it's reviewed. It can be denied. It can be approved. It can be approved with conditions. The permission to proceed can be approved with conditions. Excuse me? The permission to proceed cannot be conditioned. It can be conditioned. Yeah, so that would be, that's telling the applicant, you can go ahead, based on what you've given us, based on our assessment of the situation, you can go ahead, but give that to the select, there's like a proposed decision that goes to the select board, and the select board holds a hearing, a meeting. It's at that meeting that the public, now this is not in this draft, because I've been talking with Joe and his associate about this. Joe thinks it's important that there be a opportunity. Joe is a town's attorney. Sorry. Joe McLean, the town's attorney, thinks it's important that there be an opportunity for the public to weigh in, adjoiners, or interested persons, or whatever. For each curb cut? Yeah, that's the opportunity. And you know, probably in 98% of the cases there won't be anybody, but I don't know if you're interested. So that would be, according to what you're proposing here, be it simply a warrant agenda item on the select board? I think so. However, because of a lower court decision that Joe found in Vermont, Joe McLean, our attorney, found in Vermont, the court considers this a quasi-judicial action that is appealable. There was a really interesting case where somebody appealed, there had been no process like this, but somebody appealed a curb cut permit that was given to somebody, and it went to court, and the whole issue was, is this appealable? Is it quasi-judicial? Any decision in select boards appealable? And so the court determined it was, and then Joe said to me, you better put a little process in there, so that doesn't come up again. Right. Some kind of notification to the adjoiners or adjacent property owners. Excuse me? Some kind of notice to the adjoiners and adjacent property owners. So we're not sure where it would go, but it seems to me it might be most appropriate at the time that the select board holds a hearing before they issue their notice of permission to proceed. Because that's when the select board gets together, you know, it's not that, I mean, an employee's decision is not quasi-judicial. I don't think it can be. I don't know, maybe it can, but. If it's delegated. I guess. Delegate authority is just a select board. But I think there's several reasons why the select board should do this, that the select board should be the ones that sign the notice of permission to proceed. They decide, they talk among themselves, the select board can go off and have another site visit if they want. I mean, if it's case, if it's something that they're very interested in, and they think it's like, you know, controversial or something, I mean, they can do whatever they want, or they can say, oh, this is great. This is no brainer sign off when we do now. Right. But we've evolved there. Yeah. No, no. We've, we're in the very beginning, there were people going out from this board to inspect. That's what I mean, though, but we've evolved to being more, when we had more distant, more, more like here, the standards does the proposal, we or not meet the standards. Right. My, I would, I, as Stephanie and the board knows, I would be willing to delegate to an employee. But the fact is, A, right now we don't even have those employees, B, having a really clear process where we, where we clearly, what you, what the, what the group with your leadership laid out does clearly delegate to employees. It's clear that there are standards. Here's what they are and here's how you apply them.  So, no, and it's, it's all good in so many ways. And I do have one suggested addition that, that I talked to Stephanie about earlier today. But I think, you know, as with anything, you, you make a big leap forward in improving a process and clarifying the process. And then you realize what little tweaks it still needs. And that, that'll happen. And we could think about this for weeks on end, or we could say, this is so much better than a 2004 ordinance that everybody forgot we even had. Well, the 2004 ordinance is not as detailed. No, no, no. And I like, and I sat in on a couple of conservation commission meetings when they were talking about this. One of the questions I had was about notice, how do we, how do we get, give, let people know that this is happening? And I think if, if in the end it is signed by the select board, that's the final decision. And that's what we get recorded in the land records or, or, or as far as appeal. Yeah. So, so I can just finish the process with Sharon added something, which I think is great. I mean, it's, but I'll read it in a sec when you're finished. So then the applicant gets his notice of permission to proceed and does the work. And then there's a timeline when they're finished the work. They have to notify, I think in this, we said the department, the director of public works, that it's done within a certain number of days, they have to notify them. And then there's an inspection and the same people who wait in on the conditions or whatever would come and do the inspection. And then after that, there would be a permit issued, you know, which would probably just be the notice of permission to proceed, probably be the same thing pretty much, but it would have a somewhat different name. It would be the permit. And that's then what becomes enforceable. And they would be probably, there would have to be another hearing and or meeting.  But that would be signed by the select board. And that would get that gets recorded. And then all the enforcement stuff follows. That's all the stuff is boilerplate enforcement. And I like the idea of having the conservation commission. That's me. I'd like having two disciplines looking at this and not one. It's a little bit of check. There's expertise on one level that that brings. And then also it's a check and balance. Yeah, I think what would be really important as it goes is to be really clear and crisp about what those expectations are. Exactly. So that they, you know, this doesn't keep crawling. Oh, yeah. And, you know, we want to make sure that that permission to proceed or, you know, or to proceed with work is is clear enough, you know, that if they meet those criteria, then we don't want to have a definite amount of ad-hocs because that gets really expensive for people to, if they're not, if they don't know what to do. So we want to say we'd be clear there. Yeah. Well, one of the things we talked about a lot was how are applicants going to know what they've got there?  And so that's what we put in here, a reference to the ANR Atlas that identifies, it shows everything, almost everything, not everything, but almost everything. And then also the natural resources that we listed there all are referenced in the town plan as being significant. And then in the language of the statute, there's that language that talks about that it needs to be in compliance with all town ordinances, including the town plan and the regional plan, which we didn't even look at because we've got this in the town plan because we have such a good town plan when it comes to natural resources. So that kind of answered that for us because it's like, how are they going to know, you know, and there really are ways of knowing. And then we talked about the application, you know, should have a checklist. It has a checklist now of some things and it should add, obviously, more things to the application. So the applicant knows right up front. Right. Yeah. What it makes the people know right up front. We have a checklist that I think I sent you, but nobody's ever used it. So yeah. So I don't know if you guys are ready to say the checklist is ready, but that could be one, the icing on the cake, so to speak, to actually have the checklist ready to go and hand out to whoever's going to be implementing this. Any other comments before I share the language that I want to hear? Anyway, okay. So on the bottom of, no, in the middle of page four, under the reviews section, which begins on page three, I got stuck in a couple of places. One was that I would have preferred to allow the board to fully delegate, but I'm absolutely not going to like go to the mats over that at all because, you know, there's so much improvement here and a future board could refine the process and get to a place where whatever. So all things are possible. The other thing I got stuck on though, and this is important, is we don't actually have a DPW now and there's so much in here that relies on that. And we have a road commissioner, but we don't know how a new board's going to, you know, kind of organize themselves around getting the work done when there's not people in the positions yet. So I added this. It's this paragraph L. It's definitely, I added one little clause after I thought about it and read it again, you know, how that works. But I don't think you'll, I don't think you'll have any problems. So this is what my paragraph says, notwithstanding the above references to the function of the select board, the director of public works and the road commission, ultimate responsibility for reviewing and approving curb cuts, rest with the select board in the event, which would be true even to John's point earlier, even if the board delegated, it's still, it's still, you can never escape. It's our responsibility.  And if they screw up, you have a manager problem you have to deal with. But any, so that, that is inescapable. Ultimate responsibility for reviewing and approving curb cuts, rest with the select board in the event of vacancies, which we have now, the select board may, without delegating, fulfill these functions or delegate them to other individuals. That's the clause I added, Stephanie. We might not have a director of public works, but we could still delegate it to Jamie because she's so interested in curb cuts, right? Similarly, the select board will be, right? Similarly, or to you, Denise, we're not going to be on the select board. Similarly, the select board may, at its discretion, delegate curb cut functions to town employees so long as the process includes opportunity for public input. And the final decision is endorsed by the select board. So I just added that to kind of wrap around. We don't have people, we don't have titles. We can still get the work. Yeah, no, I think it's great. Yeah, no, I think it's great. So I will, I have, I've printed this one page out. I have a version at home that I added it to. I read it. It sounds like other people had a chance to read this. Yep. Stephanie brought it to us last time. So we all had a chance to reflect on the idea. We know it's been on our agenda for a long time that you guys were working on it. So I feel like we've, you know, people had opportunity to recognize, ask questions, ask us what we're thinking about that if they wanted to. So I guess with that and with this proposed addition, is there a motion? Wait, wait. What? Because there's still some things in there. Okay, so there's more you want to say. Well, there's a couple things. We need to figure out the, the public participation part. Okay. So you, so we still do 95%. It's 95%. And also Joe's associate, whose name is B E R I H. And I don't know how he pronounces it, but he went over this because, you know, he said Joe hasn't had a chance, but he asked me to give it a quick and dirty and see what I can, you know, what he did was he said, I changed some of this language to make it more of an ordinance to make it more ordnancy than sort of, you know, policy kind of thing. And it's interesting because it starts out because the league, the league's model was really a policy, not an ordinance. But anyway, he said that, so he added some stuff. And I haven't had a chance to see it in detail, but it looks good. That's not a version you sent. No, it's not a version. I just got it late this afternoon. Right. And Joe was still going to look at it. So what I wanted to do was go through what he sent and have a conversation with Joe in the next few days. Okay. And then I don't know if the conservation commission needs to have another special meeting to incorporate these things because I know we can't do it over the internet. Select what to do it. Well, no, she's talking about whatever Joe's offered. I mean, or I could just do it and send it to you. And then you could Joe is our attorney. So yeah, you could just send it to us. You get forward is to us and we can do it. Well, Stephanie's better. She's really saying if you want to get it, you're talking about the process authorizing the changes to be made. I would, I'm going to be adding to it now. So from a legal perspective, you don't have to run it back through the conservation commission. I think it's just a question of whether as a as a courtesy or if you think people on the commission would want to weigh in. It's really up to you, Stephanie. I don't think so. I don't think it needs to go after. I don't think so. I mean, Stephanie will always send us copies of whatever the current version is for us to look at. You have a lot of comments. If we flagged anything, you know, then we could plus I could send it to individuals. I could send it to you. Right. I could send it both of you actually because you're not a quorum, right? That's your meeting law. Right. You can share information. Yeah, you can share information. Yeah, you can share information. You just can't make any can't have a discussion of decisions. But if it's really coming back to the board with the change and we approve of it, then it's that's that's I would. Yeah, I would just want to know that you're that you have worked through those changes and you've talked with Joe. And so you're really bringing something and I'll send you this language while I'm at it. You're bringing something back to us that is ready for us to approve next week. Time's up. Yeah, that would be great. It would be great if you could. Well, you've put so much work into it. Yeah, maybe let's do it this way. I'd ask that the board authorize Stephanie to consult with our town attorney, Joe McLean, where I did that and have Joe Joe provide us the final document as he would recommend consult with Stephanie. So we receive it from our attorney. So it's just becomes a select board matter. Doesn't get all messy. Well, and so let's process. Let's just briefly look at the difference between a policy and an ordinance. So what we have out there now, I think it's an ordinance, right? Because this is a revision to that ordinance. So I think we would want this to be an ordinance. Otherwise, I'm confused. Yeah, we do want it to be an ordinance. That's what it's called. Well, that's what it's called. Well, no, but Stephanie said that there was that. Oh, it was called an ordinance, but Joe's associate taking that term made it more ordinances, right? Because I based it on the league's policy and they said this could be an ordinance, it could be a policy, but Joe's associate looked at it and said, oh, it looks doesn't look enough. Ordinance directly or like ordinance. He didn't say that, but it's true. He said it's not ordinance enough. So I'm going to make it more ordinance. And it's more like changing things to shout. Right. I always appreciate right. You know, right? You know, it's those kinds of things. Yeah, it must. Yeah, it wasn't substantive. His comments, except that they're saying, yeah, you got to write some kind of public participation in there. And so when we adopt an ordinance at our next meeting, 45 days, then it's 45 days for on. Yeah, I just want to say that out loud so people understand petition to petition. It'll be a new board to revisit tweak overhaul, whatever, or revoke. It goes into effect 60 days after the adoption date. Right. And so it's not effective until I think you have to notice it within 14. I think the statute says it's a town vote that you're petitioning for a town vote. Do you remember? I think there is something there. We've decided so. Right. But we have authority unless they're a broader decision, but it's the voters attempt at all ordinances. No, no. So, so it's 45 days for people to file a petition, raise an issue with it through filing a petition, right? And then 60 days, which would be the end of April. It just takes effect if there's no petition. So what's triggered on end on April 27th is we want to be sure that everybody's aware of it. Maybe that's something we could all help a new board with and whatever stuff that means. And we want to make sure the old one comes off the website and then it won't goes up. And also at the signature page of the ordinance, I'll get the, I'll get you the language. You have to put in, you know, it says here when it's signed, but then you have to put in the dates of 45 days for a petition and then 60 days when it takes effect. There's some additional language else to do. I think, I think it goes as close as it might have been. The other thing though, we have a real formatting problem with this document. I, Stephanie, I was able to fix it when I sent you back. You'll do the formatting? Yeah. It's also a requirement that once an ordinance is adopted by the Authorized Bar of Select Board, notice needs to go to at least one newspaper publication. And the notice either needs to provide the entirety of the ordinance that was adopted for a summary that hits on all the points. Oh, really? You know, either of change or of importance, I would suggest we would do the latter, but maybe somebody, maybe you can step forward. When does that happen? Within 14 days. Within 14 days of adoption by the Lord. Follow the date there of the adoption. Oh, okay. So people know about the ability to petition. So it would be 14 days. If you adopt it next in two weeks, then it would be 14 days after that. And then who does that? Select Board would notice it, but I was thinking of some of it. Or a delegate team. If someone could put the notice together for us. So, yeah, so the, you could have asked Joe to put the notice together. Joe would do it. Yeah, a summary. We want a summary. We don't want to spend $5,000 on publishing. Yeah, on any pages to publish in the parking. And it says at the time of the website that it actively updates, which I'm not sure we do that. Well, we do with stuff like this. Absolutely. No, every single, every single. All right. Okay. So then we're supposed to provide the link to the actively maintain to the location on the actively updated website. So that folks can have access to the document. So now you've got the landing page while it's in the summer period. Well, that would be on the notice. In the notice, we would say what the address for the home page. And then it can be right on the home page. Yeah. But Joe, take care of that. That's what you're saying. You read out the statutory site you're looking at. So I was showing Sharon, the chair or chair. I'm logged into this Vermont statutes online, title 24, chapter 59, which deals with title adoption and enforcement of ordinances and rules. Title 24 for those that don't know is the area of Vermont law. Is it title of Vermont law that deals with municipal authorities? All right. So we're going to cart this over, carry this over to the next meeting. Right. I'm going to put it on for 15 minutes. Should be long enough. I'll get it to, or Joe, one of us will get it to ahead of time. Obviously. Yep. Hopefully it won't take 15 minutes. Right. But okay. So the notice and the ordinance and final form. Yep. Yeah. Notice and ordinance and final. Got it. Okay. Great. Good discussion, guys.  Plus with this. Okay. Yeah. It's a little bit after 12 and I should continue this meeting. 12 in the afternoon or 12 at, oh, I know, the husband. Time flies, you're having a lot of things. See, good thing you're running. Stephanie, thank you. Anything else? No, I guess. Okay. So I'll just go ahead and I'll do this. I'll work with Joe and then he'll get this stuff to you and then you'll take it from there. You guys have done a lot of work. Thank you. Yeah. Great. This is, I love, I love this model. I love that you guys took this work and ran with it. Yeah. You're welcome. Do you have anything else to say about this? No, I've got a couple of questions. I can just talk to you about it. Yeah. Okay. But I just wanted to say something I had nothing to do with this ordinance and that is that I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your support. You've been so supportive of the conservation commission. It's been great. We have a great commission and it's been just wonderful to have your support and I really appreciate it. Thank you. Oh, thank you Stephanie. Thank you. I might get emotional. I know, I mean I hope the next select board is as supportive of us but as a board we're going to miss you guys because it's been great working with you. You guys do a lot of really wonderful work. I think a lot of, you'll gain good support from the next select board by educating them as to your role and your needs and what level of support you're going to need on an ongoing basis because a lot of folks are pretty new. Well, they're all going to be new to this. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for doing this. This brings a whole new level. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. I, you know, that expertise began to overlap people and skills. This is really important in this area especially. You know, it's interesting. Somebody commented that this process that was set up in here for there to be follow up to make sure that things are inspected. They said that should be in the zoning. That should be when a DRB decision is issued. There should be the same process. I know.  Anyway, it was just an interesting. Well, a certificate of occupancy. Other many towns, even smaller do a certificate of occupancy after a DRB permit. We don't do it. Well, some things don't take, aren't occupied. They might be, but there's something like that. That term is used even if it's. Loosely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I do have another question about this ordinance. Do you, we mentioned the checklist in the application. So it doesn't have to be a part of this, does it? No, no. It's really just, it's a, it's, the ordinance is the big thing. Right. The goal for the checklist was for somebody to be able, a delegate to be able to say. Right. Yes.  Right. You and I can be right. You and I work on that. I think what's going to be important on this too, is on the inspection end, at the end that we got a conservation commission person and it should be two sets of eyes on. Yeah. Yeah. Not with the expertise. I'd really like to, because that's where it's really. Yeah. It's not just, just the road commission, the road commissioner has, has his or her own expertise, but then a conservation commission has theirs. Yeah. So I think Stephanie might as well stay. Yeah. I was going to say we are, we are the running three minutes ahead of track, which is awesome. And Stephanie, you're on the next item as well. So you want to just keep, keep on keeping on here with us. And I will just turn this, this is the reviewing the historic timeline on the callous road and bridge standards that Stephanie and Denise have been working on. Right. Will you just remind us of the background of why we, why we've been carrying this? I see your hand. And why don't you lay the, why, why are we talking about this tonight in like two minutes? And then I'm assuming you have a question. Yeah. Yes. You have a question? I do. Okay. Then let's hear what the topic is and we'll have some, we'll hear from you guys and that your question may be answered in that context. So, so go ahead, Stephanie and Denise. You have, we've, we've been in talk a few times about coming up with a timeline who was involved in coming up with these road standards. We created a roads committee back in 2014, I think it was something like that. And what the idea was is to give a history of how we got there to needing to, to have some road standards because there was some discussion around what gets done to the roads with regards to ditching and cutting, cutting, cutting trees. Of course, now we have the shade tree plan too, which is great. So we did have a committee. We, this, this document and I found there was a, some discussion about that this was not met, didn't meet state standards. Well, I found the document where the state approved our standards. That's right. They did. Well, they approve it for some clarity, I think that I think they approve it to be able to enable us to access funding. Right. So for that, so. And in order to meet funding, it has to meet state standards. Right. So this and ours. And at first, if I can interject, at first we met with the state attorney, it was an attorney that met with us and another staff person and we had a con collaborative conversation and we said this is our draft and we're going to hand it off to you and they, they actually had their biggest issue was whether they could vary from the arrived at boilerplate standards and we pushed the envelope and as a result of their approving our standards created the new precedent where other towns are followed on the heels of that. So these are equivalent or better than what is required on the boilerplate. So just FYI. Yeah. I mean in the standards can be better than but not less than the current state standards. So we went through all those hurdles. So Stephanie are still going to work on a timeline. Well, I just want to say I recall it all started out because a couple things came together at once. One of them was that the road crew had marked 70 trees along the outland road that they were going to cut down and then about the same time the slip or got that year's standards from the agency of transportation. You were supposed to approve them and you kind of went whoa, wait a minute. Yeah, we don't like these standards. We don't like everything about these standards. And so you put together a committee to right to augment the standards to look at what they were, what they involved and some of them were just technical stuff that's important and some of it wasn't and then we added but one of the issues had to do with and the main issue really you wanted this committee to look at this from the perspective of maintaining the rural and human character of Calis's roads. Right. You know there's this recognition that the roads are in Calis are very much the public space you know and people use the roads more than just driving. They walk, they ride bikes, they ride horses. And a sub part to that was we also recognized widening the roads generally resulted in increased speeds. Exactly. And we had a lot of it's chronic and you're on a select board. Jordan when you're on a select board you're going to get the phone calls about speeding and you're going to be like you're going to have your hands up in the air while you're on the phone. No one's going to see you but you and your wife. And they all and that goes together. I mean with it's partly scenic it's partly you know scenic and it's partly safety. Well in part and part of Calis's charm what we heard was our scenic roads and maintaining that character for future generations. So that's what the basis of the road stage was and right we just need her and I need to sit down together just type something up so there's something in the record and the first the original roads committee I think there was Doug Lilley, J.C. Morris was the chair. Right. Caroline was on it. Alphard Larvey. Saruti. Alphard wasn't on the committee. Mo Saruti. But he participated. Alphard was supposed to be a represent or one of the people attending. Well he was invited to all the meetings. He was supposed to advise and report back to us. Barber Wayne he said that but I don't want to get that needs and and other people who for sure were Rick you were involved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Later on. Trey Martin. Trey Martin was and Conrad Smith. And Conrad. Yeah. Conrad. Right. I mean Conrad, Peter Harvey and I were like a subcommittee to write it. Gary was later. Yeah. He was later but we had this so it was you know the committee as a committee met a lot talked a lot and then said okay you guys go write it and we met we did Conrad I have Conrad's file. It's like this with research that he did. And then we met with these Montpelier Rome commissioner. And he drove us around and he talked with us. I mean we just put a lot into it. We read a lot of stuff. Yeah. And and pulled it together into this document. And it was formally so it was formally adopted. Several times. In 2014 there again in 2015 and then there were some tweaks made I think three different times the board looked at it and then later on in more recent years we didn't make any changes but we restated. We re-adopted. We restated our support and endorsement of those standards and they are on the town's website as being you know there's a section under governance or something for policies and ordinance. Under ordinance. Calis the Calis road and bridge standards are on there in that list. And they have been and the reason we wanted to revisit this before because we've been carrying this and we wanted to Denise is still working out of it to remind people what the timeline was because a few months ago there was this Bruja as though they were new and they weren't new and we wanted to make sure that while the institutional memories are here we've resurfaced what the timeline was who was involved what the process was really just to underscore they're not new point number one and point number two they are still in effect for Calis that's right. The question I still want to bring up and I brought this up a lot too I I agree with 95% of it you know I still think the narrow road side for continuous 12 like a 12 foot road is too narrow. Well wait let me finish point I'm sorry that you got a 12 foot plow frame and you've got a 12 foot road it doesn't work now if this and that's without a wing so wait let me I mean there are other way I've you know if they're I'm going to stop you right there I'm going to stop you because that is not for every single road and when you it's not for every single road so that's not the way the standards are either so before you move on with what doesn't doesn't work let's just be super clear that people talk about 12 feet as though that's what was envisioned for every road from Lightning Ridge okay I'm going to continue though because I said the narrow you said the narrow 12 foot I don't want to disagree with wider I agree I was on that because I know talking about but that doesn't matter if you've got a fuel truck or if you've got a Volkswagen and a plow truck coming a verge doesn't work in winter it doesn't work so what I you know and things like there ways around this and that's where you instead of using continuous 12 foot roads you do things like actually create a choke point even by burrowing earth so it's actually more important that are 30 feet long but we're not and wait I mean this may have the same common effect but it's still it begins to make it functional I'm not saying these are things where I think we have to work on and tweak and I think that that should be acknowledged I think the road crew should be involved with those discussions because they're the ones who kind of know how to engineer this yeah John Stafford has to be on the committee and this would be great if we can I mean there the intent is really good and most of it is really good but we have to be careful there's a safety issue and a practicality issue based on the equipment itself that we use and we could use a truck with a six foot wide plow or something but you know we better hide fire at 30 road crew because it's doing eight miles a road but again Rick 80 miles a road is not 12 feet I know I know but you know what so that's hyperbole wouldn't you say we need to hire well wait a minute we're not even supposed to be talking about right this right right now we're talking the agenda item is to spell out the history that Stephanie and I are still working on not to get into the details of does it work or doesn't it work that is for a future committee to read well I mean until but until that happens Rick until that happens these are the standards and if people want to revisit them understand within more detail which roads actually need to be plowed by a regular pickup truck because they are as part of our rural character going to be narrower then that's a conversation we have to have but I feel like every time we raise up the but but but we fuel this idea that these call it the callous road and bridge standards are not still in effect in our town and they are yes they are my intent but my point is that they're flawed in some places but that's what that's for that's for a future that's for a future discussion well right now we're just right now they are still okay I'm just voicing it as a board member because those roads are being plowed right now right if we plow that if we maintain that to that standard we're creating a dangerous spot I mean that's a reality that we're in then that is not something as a select word I remember you know remember I really want to do and I'm all with these I'm with the spirit behind this I'm also you know I've done enough for a way to design myself I know what's dangerous and that's getting on the verge of data dangerous and dysfunctional we're setting ourselves up for a problem so I think we have to somehow begin to address some of these pieces but and I go back to what I said before this is on the agenda to talk about the timelines and that's what we're not supposed to be getting into what works and what doesn't but I I hang on so these are these are the standards of the town Denise and Stephanie we're helping us with the timeline is there more that you guys want to say about the timeline and about the fact that was widely discussed and a lot of people with interests and expertise participated is there anything more you want to add on that point okay is there anything you want to underscore that I just I want to clarify give examples for folks here of what might be an appropriate 12-foot road rig now anyone been here know where the bassages live yes that little road with the grass up the middle serves basically when you get down to that house one house and yeah an oil truck might come from their house and someone's going to have to get over on the grass or and back up and that that's an appropriate situation it's not lightning ridge road it's not county road another example might be what is that subdivision it's town highway 50 I think that Chapin road Chapin road Chapin road that was an abandoned road until a five lot subdivision was put in before I was on the select board that road was upgraded to class three standards but it is more or less a 12-foot road serves five houses it was a class four two track muddied up road now it serves five houses there's another example where that's appropriate you're not going to see school buses going two different directions with fire trucks and ambulances you know you're going to see one car go by once an hour maybe probably not so there are that's what the 12-foot road thing was about the concern was that if we had every road widened to the same width we not only were spending beyond beyond increasing speed and just ruining the area that those people live there for a reason it also is a waste of town money the wider the road is the more material you had to put down and the more material we have to purchase and then when you widen the road and you cut the shade trees you're not impeding the rainfall and you start beating on a road surface the road crew knows you drive through a shady spot and because we chloride our roads in the summer to keep the moisture in the road bed it gets shiny under those trees and there's no dust you come out into the open and it's all dust there's a benefit to having those shade trees in terms of saving the town money when the roads turn to dust the fines go elsewhere besides harassing everybody's property and ruining people's lungs by the way but that's money blowing away farmers know that road crews know that and then we got to replace that material so it's about saving taxpayers money it's about controlling speed it's about doing what is appropriate for the new road I just want to make that clear thank you again yeah and the narrative that the road standards are all about 12 for the roads is just plain all wrong just plain all wrong okay okay so Stephanie and I will continue to work on that with some of this information together and write some one one final comment and then I want to let a couple brief things I would like to say having been Jordan's project oh I I'm okay can I just say these things first why don't why don't I take Jordan's question and then you may be able to answer it as part of your let's go ahead Jordan now you forgot your question I'm talking about multiple agenda items so I've got multiple questions so I guess how would the board like me to are these questions that are yeah is it really important they be answered now here and now or are these just kind of you're just kind of getting your brain primed and you have a bunch of questions that we could somebody could even meet with you offline and talk about I guess I'm just trying to understand what at what point the public is going to be invited to speak to these agenda items beginning of the meeting anybody have any comments or so I'm asking you the you raised your hand when this item came up before we moved to this item because we you was it on the curb cut ordinance yeah okay I apologize why don't can we just finish this and why don't we do something about this one too ask your question about this then we'll let Stephanie speak then we'll go back to your question about the court curb cut ordinance what is the process through which the town was welcome to participate in reconsidering the road standards so I was present for the the meeting in 2022 where they were there was a motion to approve or readopt the road standards without any warned opportunity for public discussion to get into discussing whether or not there were going to be any of amendments or improvements and so you know I understand that there's a long history of of this standards existence and it has been pulled in and out of various controversies but certainly from what I witnessed in 2022 there was not an opportunity for the discussion that Rick was just offering to me and so while I appreciate the documentation and the context I mean I think it's worth recognizing from the public's perspective that there should also be an opportunity for the public to participate in that in that discussion on whether or not it wants to modify or make improvements or further clarify you know even if you don't have a particular objection to the motives of the modified road standard there's always opportunity for improvement and further clarification and example of that is Mr. Bravan's commentary on the differences between a 12-foot road in this particular situation and that particular situation and that is a clarification that is absent from the existing road standard but it is like a reasonable thing to put in so so I want so I want to respond to that I'm sure it was on the agenda it was on the agenda so we so this board as you have already observed does not take an action without warning it and that whatever meeting that was it would have been a warned item there would have been opportunity for people to speak that's think that's number one the other point is more broadly there I think it's on the new list we have over and over and over in the six years I've been on the board tried to reconvene a roads committee with this much success none no interest in people coming back together to do exactly what you're talking about looking at the road standards how do they need to be updated where are they working where are they not working yeah we have asked for volunteers and it's on that list it's on the town website now roads committee and there's no and we've heard from nobody who's interested in in that topic so that that's I think you know that's the answer to the question whether there would be whether there would be some interest if somebody took took the leadership to bring a group together and as you know as Rick was saying look at where does it need to be further clarified maybe people just need to understand better what it is and what it isn't because there is a lot of misinformation but in any case the item would have been warned whenever we did it in 2022 and there's been many multiple not just once over different points we've tried but we've even made phone calls asking people to you know would you be willing to get involved in roads committee we've posted in our report form haven't had any interest fair enough well I mean I I guess but there is a member of the existing board that has an interest to talk about those things and likely would have contributed to it and so long I was on the committee it was on committee to adopt Rick is the road commissioner if we were going to open that up and revisit them and tweak them it would be because Rick had time to do it well that's where we I mean that's where I am and my suggestion is that we look I mean I know John's argument on that but the reality is any road I don't care if you know just grandma Parker lives on that road you put a truck on or even a plot truck in the winter there's no verge there if you do you know there's there's a truck and there's a car and they're they don't fit so the point is there are ways to do that I think where you can have the same desired effect right that's my point I mean we can you know and it doesn't cost that much more to do a few acts you know an extra foot or two on a road and especially if you and you can still get the calling if I'm not I think that's where but then you should then you should be on the roads committee when it when it is re-established and convenes and you don't even need a committee you the road standards are out there on the website for absolutely anybody to download take a pen go through and say I suggest this change this change and this change and you come to the select board and a public comment you say and a future meeting I'd like 10 minutes to go through some ideas I have about the road standards we have always respond to that we always take people's comments always okay let's go back to Stephanie I just wanted to say it's partly responding to what Jordan said but part of this process I think it's important to understand is that in most many respects the road standards have not been complied with so this was a very sore point and it was especially sore point for the people who were on the roads committee and who wrote these standards right because so much thought went into them so much effort I remember somebody from the agency of transportation Alec Portolubbi he came and he said to the select board I love your road standards he works for the agency of transportation I love Callis's roads however the road crew never at the time wanted to comply with them for for a long time as you all know that's not news different I will say that's not news different road what I wanted to say is that following up on what Sharon's saying as part of the process it broke down because the road crew wasn't happy with them that the committee couldn't get anywhere and people were dropping off the committee and so as Sharon just said there weren't people to work obviously they need to be revisited if there are problems with it they need to be revisited and worked on and and have I think a committee is a good idea because then you get the the cross discussion and different people's knowledge and skills and everything else but you need the people without the people I don't think you know you need the road crew you need people who know about you need the people who work on this thing and we on why they why why do we have these standards how do we get them Stephanie the select board that at the time we had a different road commissioner than we do right now Rick is currently our last road commissioner was asked to be our liaison to that committee as well as our operations manager I think our road commissioner attended one meeting to my knowledge yeah and I never went again and then years after this is this was adopted adopted years he complained to us so we then said please go back we gave him a copy of this thing print it out or you got a copy of it mark up what you think the changes should be and come back to us how much time do you need in a more meeting folks probably on that video camera any month whatever never got anything but there but we did feel a heat of his campaign to take us out before he resigned so I just Jordan I objected a clip that's pretty colorful commentary that is no that's an actual fact you are really screwed I was there for those meetings for a portion of those meetings and I understand that that that is exactly what happened um whether you like the color or not that's what happened all right and when you're on a select board you can run it the way you want but when we have an agenda item the public is welcome to come on on every agenda item in fact it's Vermont law we have to require allow public to participate and we do but the public sits silent and doesn't participate that's their right too and they can then appeal the decision of select board we said earlier in this meeting any decision of the select board is appealable they can appeal it we wouldn't have to require you to appeal it formally you can just write us an email and ask us to amend it these are all avenues that no one pursued until this summer and they still didn't pursue them we asked give us your direct comments how many people have read it there's a lot of anecdote and no one reading it have you read these good good that's great you're the right guy for the select board so yeah I think we should move on yeah and I think we should keep stop saying stuff about who's going to be on the select board again and I don't think it's appropriate well he's running on a post he's got none of us I'm just saying I'm going to vote for him there he is you're in okay it's going to come in unperfect right Jordan do you want to comment unperfect yeah so I have a question so obviously a version of this had been circulated has that been a draft version of that been posted anywhere publicly for her review or we will we will it will be and we haven't we haven't adopted it and yes we can send it we'll we'll get Jamie to post it on the home page once we get it from Stephanie or Joe so that you have time to review it does that sound fair still uh sure it is an important clarification thank you the my concern is the tenor of the dialogue regarding this particular draft and the momentum that draft is now carrying into another meeting where we've already discussed adoption of that without without public commentary on that ordinance that's being and so there are a couple of things that are that are concerning and I don't have the details of the entire thing because I haven't been able to review it but from the perspective of somebody in the community who's gone through a process that was that that required and received heavy community participation there's a concern about the procedure that's made more complex and the inherent cost that that adds to the applicant to get through that process and while I don't necessarily disagree with again the motives of why certain things are a broader list of things should be considered through that curb cut application the checklist I'm curious as to what problems specifically were were solving that have come up recently that aren't already that aren't already addressed by the standards that exist at the state level and in our hometown regulations and if the answer to that is largely just the enforcement of those standards then that's that's something that that is from my perspective an easier problem to solve than to create a a fairly multi-step broadly participated in procedure for something like a curse type ordinance which from the perspective of the state statue is largely about protecting the public safety entering and exiting the public highway and the protection of public resources that are put into maintaining that public highway can I say something there needs to be a a reasonable so so a reasonable what finish your sentence Jordan so state statue already requires there to be a I have to look at the state statue but there has to be some sort of unreasonable situation created that by a curb has some extenuating circumstance and they do allow for the reference to section 24 and and the referral to a town plan that does invite the contribution of of the conservation commission and references and aspirations stated by the town plan but it's one thing to make sure that those things are on a checklist it's another thing to make sure that it goes through multiple steps of review by multiple by multiple agencies or the part of them so so so I'm I'm going to respond briefly and then Stephanie let me see how I do here so so what you a couple of things you said I want to build on one is that the statue refers or refers to and I can't remember exactly the language but invites reference and incorporation from the town plan and from there's another another old municipal ordinance yeah other municipal ordinances and 24 they say 43 and this was it and this was also a model ordinance that VLCT had right so down in there the legal cities in town that I don't know if you're familiar with them or not so we so we so the the impetus was a couple of things for for the work that Stephanie took the lead on on behalf of the at the for preservation commission the request of the board Stephanie and the conservation commission we had a 19 year old ordinance heavily out of date and and certainly it did not adequately refer to and and bring in other pieces that are relevant when you're cutting you know cutting a hole in the to connect to the road and so the process to the extent that there's a detailed process is is intended to add clarity and predictability rather than have a process that hides behind you know reference to the town plan and you you know open up what does that mean and it becomes this whole other thing you didn't even know about what Stephanie and the group and the conservation commission did is lay out a process so that it's predictable and transparent to the public rather than being unknown and and it is of course she mentioned several times she's been consulted with our town attorneys to be sure that it is fully compliant with state law and consistent with the statue whereas a 19-year-old ordinance almost certainly was not what I'd like to say is you're concerned that you feel like this is being hurried along I cannot tell you how many times this has been on the conservation commission's agenda I would say probably at least 10 times in the last year or more we have put curb-cut ordinance on our agenda nobody showed up nobody the agenda's posted it's posted all over town it's posted on front porch forum let me finish let me just finish now let me finish now we went the conservation commission spent a lot of time going over every single little piece of language every sentence every word to make sure that it was clear that it was consistent with state law but we had we had multiple multiple hearings meetings not hearings we had meetings where we discussed this and it's all posted and it's all public that's when it was time to meet to talk with us about it and nobody showed up so except Denise you know as a member of the select board was the only member of the public who came to these meetings so to now be saying that you know oh it's all being hurried through it's a little bit disingenuous when in fact you know it's been like a year but we've had this on our agenda and we've had it we've had it on our agenda we've had it here as a cross-reference and over again that that they're working on it well truthfully too we've done drafts after drafts and each time we got together and we went over the draft and and I I appreciate that those that that effort has been put on there but there are other parts of that ordinance that that maybe there could be other commentary on there are other verification so when when you see that I've been following it for a year and a half as a reference to my court agenda that the conservation commission would like to provide input and a revision of the ordinance and so that that is fair it is there and so you know members of the public may not necessarily be able to attend every single meeting that comes up most of them are on zoom most of them are on zoom zoom does not change the fact that I have to feed my daughter and put her to bed like that doesn't just because it's it's a little bit easier so please let me make my point before I think I think we Jordan I think we're I think we've we've responded to we've responded there's been a process we are not endorsing it tonight it will be on the agenda for the for the next meeting there will be more opportunity then I think Denise just handed me the coffee I gave you mine coffee and we are I kept the I kept the last page because I wrote down the statute reference so we can add it to the the statute so I don't have a problem okay we're going to move on is Riley here are you no Riley's not here no okay well so we need to move that along so I did I did that along Gus you're here yeah I did I didn't even we have a and you got mostly got my email Gus you ready to join us come on up thank you thank you so much guys for all of your work yeah really really appreciate it okay Gus take it away Gus town meeting oh I know what I wanted to ask what and I thought of it this after later this afternoon and it's going to come up under our item about the informational meeting on Curtis pond okay you would I think you would moderate that right um I could I when is that meeting going to be it's going to be the 27th at 6 30 we might want to do six o'clock I had a phone call about it and I wonder if there will be more people or you can do six it wouldn't hurt us to do six and make sure we have plenty of time yeah because sometimes it takes a while to get started there's a lot of people that's true great we don't have the town reports yet I think Barbara said that they were going to be mailed out I think she said today or yes what's it not let's see so they didn't get mailed yesterday that's in town reports we will be mailed in the next few days okay yep okay well I've I've taken one quick look at the warning okay so the warning itself looks pretty straight forward and similar other than we're all out of practice with having an actual town meeting yeah I'm feeling a little rusty four has it been four years no two two years we haven't had three years since we 20 we did it in 2020 so three is three years ago we barely yeah we did in 2020 and then a week later everything shut down right every that's why it's like three years I think that's right I didn't actually print it for tonight the warning is pretty straightforward right yeah there's not much content there's nothing really controversial I can't remember that we've ever separately warned an article about the ambulance service and maybe it's just because of the number maybe we've had it before so I don't know no well we've warned them we've warned the pieces of the budget for the ambulance separately because I think I looked we did that I know I remember this pretty clearly we we did not used to back in the other the early meeting in person days we did not and we we changed that we changed that just two years ago one yeah one time or two times we've done it separately and we I mean the history in case you're interested is that we revisited the contract we smell until your fire department to allow it to be warned separately that's fine I guess all I'm saying is because it's a large number somebody should be prepared to speak that's that's actually a good point somebody from EMF making sure we have somebody from the MFD there okay I'll make sure there's somebody there and I and I'd say that's really you know when we've gotten together in the past to talk about how time meeting would go to the extent that any of you you know whether it's something in in a town report that one of you wants to be the person to speak to I assume the Cemetery Commission will speak for itself in terms of their budget but if just let me know in advance about who that who the people might be on point on particular issues I assume if there are road questions I'm gonna go to you first right Rick and I think and I guess the only other thing I'd say is you know when there have been controversial issues in the past it's usually been better for me to so I've often reached out and called somebody to say once on your mind and talk to them about how that you had an impact or not about the issue they're concerned about so if there's anybody you want me to give a call to let me know I think I would do my best to reach them ahead of town meeting so far the one call I've gotten was somebody who wants to amend the budget so that there can be there could potentially be reimbursement for select board members but that's the only thing anybody's called me about so far and I usually get very few calls so we have EMFD cemetery commission and then usually if I'm remembering back to the good old days of in person usually you at at the beginning I think of the warning it says updates from blah blah blah and that's when you give like the conservation commission or the trails committee an opportunity to have somebody speak if they would like to that's what you're talking about right yeah or it's a time to accept the reports of the various town bodies it's a time for anybody to ask any question they might want to ask about how the town does its business so okay well I can try to I'll contact EMFD and cemetery to let them know to have somebody available to answer questions do you think we need Woodbury fire department too they usually show up yeah they usually show up they usually show up they usually show up but yeah but yeah they you know nothing is as inexpensive as it looks looked right so right okay it's I think the other thing about the fire and ambulance budget if we I can I can bring recent town reports because we've been putting that pie graph in for recent years three or four years and even though the number is big it's as a piece of the whole the percentage of staying about the same whatever it's grown it's grown over the past what did we look at five to ten not as much as people think but it used to be voted on just as part of a big of the big number so it was a little bit hidden and now it's not hidden which yeah we pulled it out of the big budget and made it a separate item so that people could see where their money is going to and and I've had good feedback from people on having it so that people can see the action you know you don't have to search through the whole budget so I've had good feedback on that and there's usually somebody who's going to run through every single line item and find something that everyone can ask a question yeah yeah yeah I have to get retuned and how they're supposed to do I think actually one of the questions we might anticipate because I have had these questions is around positions I mean there's open positions at every level there's an entirely open roads committee if people want to convene a roads committee come tell us and I mean it would take more than one to call it a committee but that would be really welcome but we have a we have an open position for director of public works we have the open position for treasurer but what what is confusing is the way that those budget lines carry across year to year we leave we leave the words in for three years even if there's no numbers and that is super confusing well but you have to but we have to I mean that's just the way accounting accountants think about the world so then the words are there and what we did for those open positions is the director of public works is still it stands on its own but treasurer select board assistant town administrator we put all in one line it's not three positions what we were trying to do is say there's going to be a new board here's a budget for a position here's a bunch of titles so you know try to say pick a title pick a different title one of the one of the objections was that the you know the title hadn't been warned so I mean could fill a page with titles but the point was to say there's a administrative position and a budget for it and that I've had to explain to a couple of people who have had who have looked at the draft budget that the reason they're still treasurer down here with no numbers is because that's a legacy from previous budgets and now it's all combined up here which again doesn't mean that the new board's going to fund it that way but there's money there for them to figure out okay here's what we want to do so those questions I bet will come up the accounting procedures require that you leave it on for three three years yeah right and we also put the director of public works even though it's not strictly for roads under the road budget at the suggestion of our person that's doing some of the treasurer's duties through NEMRIC suggested that we put it there again because moving it would have created a huge adherence of a disruption in the highway budget which isn't accurate but we decided based on her advice not to not to try to explain that just leave it there so I know those are the things that come up in my mind this might be questions so is there anything on your minds that you want me to be particularly attuned to or concerned about I don't think so I think just clarifying I mean everyone's going to know that this select board is fully turning over and so they need to understand that it doesn't turn over until the vote is finalized and that's at seven o'clock in the night of town meeting so it would be the following day and then the members have to be sworn in so we fill out the select board role through the end of town meeting do you have any other thoughts I guess the only other thought I'd share with you as somebody who works in the public sector and is needed the aid of medical people in the public sector and I work with a whole bunch of organizations who've been serving from honors who've been without housing is that public service has been really hard over the last three years so thank you oh thank you Gus thanks Gus it's really hard it is hard it's been really hard to work by Zoom so I'm glad you chose to get people together I think it's way easier not that people don't get angry at town meeting but way easier to be angry electronically we gotta talk to each other social media remember that we're human beings and neighbors and hopefully out of there as neighbors and friends time of the day and so I hope people will come and break bread together and we're not gonna have lunch yeah there's not gonna be you have to bring your own fishes and loaves yeah well there's no lunch there wasn't anybody available to do it nobody wanted to do lunch is it too late for somebody to organize a lunch if somebody wanted to probably not if you know somebody they would need to let the school know yeah you have to talk to us but open the kitchen up okay well yeah it's too bad because that was like the best part historically it's been against corners of it it's kind of the doors are too bright yeah well there was a group that didn't even before them as well so yeah all right well thank you so much thanks Gus you're such a pleasure to work with thank you Gus thank you for all of what you've done over some of you over decades couple of us yep well you're always a pleasure thank you so much all right take care so Gus will you check your schedule and see if you're available on the 27th I know I have a conflict that won't end until about seven I'll see whether I can get out of it okay thank you okay great yeah do let us know because we'll need we need to put it on the agenda yeah yeah want somebody also I guess there's folks here from the Curtis Pond Dam Association you guys will have people here because this is a public information meeting about the petition the bond the bond vote petitioned by the Curtis Pond Association so I think it would be awkward awkward for the select board to be you know kind of taking the lead on it when it's well we need you here to answer questions yeah it's it really is it it's from it's from the it's on the ballot because of the association's petition so you all please make sure there's kind of people here to answer the question are we the only ones on this meeting agenda right there I'll for the informational meeting no just Curtis Pond because that's the well we're going to start at six and then this luck board meeting will start at seven well this luck board will meeting will start after well I think we have to set a time oh that's true because it's a separate meeting right it's a separate meeting so we have to set a time it's a separate meeting it's not a it's I'm just trying to feel for it yeah so so we are warning for convenience we are warning the meeting about the bond um it's the fact that it's a bond that requires an informational meeting and that's why it's own that's why it's only the Curtis Pond association March to answer that question so we are warning it for convenience at six o'clock on the 27th and and we'll warn it for a full hour and what I just said about we'll start select board we can't do that because it's two different meetings so the select board meeting will start at seven assuming the Curtis Pond hearing is as well yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay questions it's it's it's yeah I mean it's awkwardly our because it's on our ballot we as it's as a town host and have to host set tutorial the information session but it's a bond vote that arises because of a private petition so we want to be sure that you're here to answer the questions about process where things are you know one of the next steps et cetera will we be doing a presentation or just you could you could if you wanted absolutely that would be a good idea so it's very hard it's really your call okay that's what I yeah yep does that answer your question Jamie yeah I was just gonna sort of propose that we put together 15 20 minute presentation of the whole project and the bond I mean you already have a lot of that right we have a lot of right yeah we can show a little video we have them and then we question and answer beyond that yeah sounds good to get an idea of your expectations and Gus is going to be we'll so I I should say there'll be someone there to facilitate there will be someone to facilitate Gus is gonna let us know if he can get here or not and then we'll have to if he can't then we'll have to find somebody else Craig you want us to go or anything I don't think it's gonna go but that we're gonna do show you anything do you guys want to I mean ahead of time just wing it at the meeting you're going you're gonna see anything ahead of time you're going to want to present put the best face on this project this is what you've been working on you've been fundraising go through that history and then of course talk about the concerns over the current condition of the dam and why we need to you know market it just like you because at the end of the day you're you're courting the vote and you're courting taxpayers voters who are taxpayers you're gonna want to talk about the money you've raised privately any plans you have to raise more money privately people that will be very welcome the call that I got was wondering what happened to the idea of different assessment districts or an assessment district so that will be on people's minds yeah so you might want to be ready to talk about that and our fund and right yeah verify right the funding yeah the funding our group which will likely reduce the bond right my job I mean you guys have done you've been doing this for months just a little just a little pieces so you just got to put it all together just trying to get your rotation yeah and yeah it would be good if you could have somebody to take notes yeah that's a good idea so actually we had this on as an action item to schedule this meeting we said I've said six thirty but I'm talking myself into six no I think six is I think six is better yeah an hour's enough time it's going to well we're going to travel I've only had one call have you any calls none okay I think an hour should be good our is it going to be just strictly in person are there going to be any as soon as you no just just in person here but this I mean let's remember what it's like trying to zoom zoom from here nothing has changed right yeah yeah I know it's a bond boat I think we should you know think of it as an hour meeting but allow for it to run into seven thirty if we need to and can Orca be here at six you need to ask for coverage yeah that's what I do when I send out the agenda I send it to this to the person at Orca somebody always shows up but we like it when Jerome shows up so so that doesn't that doesn't serve that doesn't serve for people to participate electronically but it certainly serves really well for people to at least review it after that and get the information and we'll be able to yeah that that screen yeah yeah the laptop sure I guess yeah so yeah yeah yeah through that I don't know teach me so that I'll know who knows who's around yeah you just plugged the laptop into the screen there's a place to plug it in and then you just turn on the laptop and turn on the tv and boom dry run yeah so I know a little bit about so I know some about technology it's there is there a motion to conduct the information meeting on the Curtis pond vote at six o'clock on February 27th okay so we're gonna and I'll second it is there any other questions comments on the board okay all in favor please say aye aye okay emergency net management we have some things we have to yes sign last time we talked about the facility UC group with red cross Denise has that here for us to sign well Rick oh Nick is here Nick has it yes good and you you took a look at it and decided you'd like to have the training review right right and you got a response so yeah yeah he said he said it was fine so I brought it back and for there were a couple of places where if you decided to round with it which and it is standard it's been around a long time you've been used a lot like you've been trying yeah Joe said if you were to rewrite it it would change some stuff but he said it's absolutely fine so do you want so we need to need a motion right is there a motion to I make a motion to sign the facility use agreement with the red cross for managing a shelter at the town hall hey so so um I think it's not just signing aren't we also we are accepting or approving something it's an agreement so great I have my way we're signing right the facility use agreement we're okay works okay enter into we're entering into an agreement and the signing is to is to signify that we've agreed to the agreement yes so there are a couple of boxes to check off I'm and a couple to check off that I'm recommending I think it's pretty obvious what they are okay as far as the form so you want me to pass that to you now yeah yeah yeah well we had them the motion is there in a second I second it yeah all favorably say hi hi hi hi and who's signature are we putting down this the legal name of the owner town accounts you mean what are you talking about is it here I'm thinking that it doesn't the town owns the building right who from the town is putting down their signature the name of owner the address for official yeah so that's the same as do we need to do I do as we authorize the chair Sharon yeah to sign on behalf of the select board I second the facility is already filled out so I can give you I'll go through each page if you want do you want me to do that now my recommendations on each page shh okay on page two yep I am recommending maybe initial all four columns is obviously it's we are permitting red cross to use the town hall on a temporary basis to do and for the purpose of one operations client services and volunteer intake two storage of supplies three parking of vehicles and four disaster shelters so those are all appropriate functions that we would want in an emergency in an emergency only during the so I have time on it so what I do to cross these four boxes as I wrote my full name Sharon Winfan and for the town callous right okay yeah and then on page three and on page three under oh I see under 10 C I think we do not want to charge red cross now I wouldn't do that but zero so yeah just say just say zero under nine A you just put the initials indicating we will not be charging them the license fee and then we do we put a zero under B we'll pay zero oh right I think you can just leave that blank just leave that like that's just the opposite state okay and then under the reimbursement section yeah under 10 C this is also saying do we want to do we want to charge red cross for their use of water gas and electricity while the are operating the shelter and I'm recommending that we do not initial yeah I would we're not yeah I agree I don't think we should charge them yeah don't add any serious thoughts and then page three on page four just about completing all of that first column with the legal name of the owner and so forth again well the vote to allow you to sign on behalf no we already did that oh we didn't vote on it oh we have to vote and make all the change and make all the refinements to the contract that I just did all right is there a motion on everything so no we just said second okay so I was going to do this though right yeah all right all right all right great there was any longer great thank you we'll never need to have a shelter up in town yeah I agree thank you but at least we'll be prepared and you want this back I'm working oh yes I was yeah work well let me just take it and scan it so we have it I'll scan it and send it okay yeah and then we have a request for ARPA funds for the this is a oh that's addition so um just oh this is an addition additional funding because and Nick can explain about the generators and that we we opted for um a 30 kilowatt instead of a 24 kilowatt is that right water cooled too yeah oh yeah after we submitted our initial our original grant we had put in we had different bids from different contractors and we put in for a 24 kilowatt air cool generator here and then after that we kind of input from various people from grip saying you know uh another contractor said you really need a liquid cool generator down here 30 kilowatt based on the square footage of the building based on the elevator and this and that they came through they looked at the service entrance said you can get by with the 24 kilowatt air cool but the thing's going to be working hard and it's not going to last as long yeah so he said your your call will do it either way but we really recommend 30 kilowatt liquid cool which was an additional $10,000 yeah so so I applied I put submitter and grant application amendments to the Department of Public Safety for that extra amount and they approved it and so that means the match for the town would be $5,000 what's the percent we're matching ours is $50 50 so we it'll be an additional $5,000 for us it goes from we approved the expenditure from ARPRA of $16,092 to as our match and now it's going up by $5,371 so the town's match is $21,463 and we we're Denise the big so related to that where are we on our our footpot I haven't figured it out in this way but there's enough for this okay because it's an additional five and we I think we still had 50 or $60,000 left the last time I calculated it and I'll do it again before our next meeting so we've been up to date a mile right so it says on our agenda we're proving increases to the channel grant match increases of the ARPRA funds toward the purchase of generators for both the town hall and maple corner community center increase only applies only a year so that's all to the town the maple corner will remain as and they're getting the same one $24,000 so the question is yes so the question is whether we want to the $16,092 included both the town hall and the maple corner generator the $21,463 is an additional whatever Denise just said the addition as a practical matter is because of town hall but the number was for both so bottom line is do we want to increase the number for generators from $16,092 ARPRA funds from $16,092 to $21,463 so we can get the one that's a good fit for town hall and the amount of the the amount for the one at Maple Corner stays the same right so this is right so this is so is that a motion I yes that was a motion no no I was asking whether somebody wants to make I'll make a motion okay brick makes the motion you're seconding the motion is what Sharon said brick we're increasing our ARPRA funds for generators from $16,092 to $21,463 right and this is for the generator and the approving for the town hall so we can get the water cold so that we can get the town hall yeah recommended generator and just parenthetically the overall project also includes enhancing our radio communication upgrading our radio communication system and getting the the the three units for both this building and for the world yeah great I think that's all is any more questions comments I have a question so the folks who installed the generator also provide putting the service in to connect to the panel yes they're doing it's all part of the transfer of the relation because sent contractor to the services the generator at the town office and at the school this is brookfield it's all brookfield so maybe we can get a bargain deal if we have four to be serviced all voluntarily say aye aye aye okay done thank you thank you great where they could propose in a location yes there was a lot of back and forth that that probably directly behind the building is that they wouldn't think they would raise I'm thinking it should be at the highest point they're raising it they are raising it okay it'll be on the five that's standing I'm gonna call I'm gonna call for a five-minute break because I need to do Donna's doing okay this next connection water all right thanks Nick thank you yeah John thank you for all of the work John yeah it's going on it yeah it's going I I yeah I was concerned raise it me too and it's where and it's going to be on a cement pad yeah right elegant you know FEMA still based their flood plain maps based on IDF intensity duration frequency rainfall data from the fifties it's it's all it's to run and so we got this building meets the standards for what is a to find a flood hundred-year flood plan or not but those numbers are all they're all wrong the one hundred five hundred years are just garbage down they're all garbage it's changed five hundred year floods and less than twenty-five years so I think I'll throw the time here goes to to be well with the folks uh I'm just going to attach them right yeah to the concrete build up yeah that locks right so they don't float away yeah those tanks float yeah you have to be careful if anything you chain it you want to float so that it they've been known to blow out of the ground underground tanks if there's air yeah no underground tanks well if you put water it's definitely empty yeah yeah they can not so it's so but it's good on this generator because of the you really don't run continue to slow it on generators more than fifty percent not if you want to get any light found on yeah and so that's a good and the water cool version you know you know that that's like a big that's a big jump for five so it's a track what is this Kohler Kohler right Kohler it's a good it's a good it's a good yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good it's a good I should have thought he and rick in my husband we're both pretty pretty good the uh yeah now that'll be good down here I think next time well it's in the works cantile road colors they were trying to yeah it's a brick it's a brick ramp yeah yeah yeah that's it's on the list the project yeah yeah it's on the list all right it's on the list yeah yeah are we back in session here here no oh you opened your cookies I hold on I was gonna hold on but I'll take I'll thank you check okay let's come back everybody does anybody want I'm gonna share John training action You mentioned the training. It is actually the risk of having the worst impact on me. Well, those are really good. They are good. Yeah. I have to try this again. I have not understood what you're talking about. Book lender. It's your turn. We're going to say more. That's you, bud. So, one of the many to-dos on our somewhat ancient to-do list that we're trying to get finalized was, I've got next year's, was to make updates and changes to our traffic coordinates or traffic's coordinates that deals with signage, do with intersection signage and speed signage. So, for the select board's consideration, I came up with suggested changes. I can just say in a nutshell, I mean, it's got pretty much everywhere. I noticed, actually, that D-A-R road is not on our town highway map. Who? It's not a numbered road on our town highway map. D-A-R road? D-A-R. What's D? What does that mean? G-A-R. Oh, G-A-R. I think Daughters of the American Revolution knows. G-A-R. Where is that? That's not on there. Just FYI, I tried to address that. And I don't... What's the road that I just mentioned earlier in the meeting? Chapin. Chapin and Chapin. Is that on here? I don't think I saw that on here either. So, we're... Now that that... I mean, that is... Some of that is class three, and we are getting sure changing ourselves in terms of quality. Let's look at the map. It's right here. Number 35. Okay. Are these in numeric order, Jim? They're in numbered order? Yeah. Number 35 is taking order. Okay. Let's take a look at the top here. 33. The mind jumps to 36. Yeah, mind goes from 33... Yeah, 35 is missing. 36. I thought you said it wasn't missing. So, 35 is missing. So, that needs to be included in here. And that's Chapin is... Is 35, John? Yes, it is number 35. Bottom of page five is where... It's right here. You can't believe any type of part of... That's Mark. It's in the village. Wait, wait, wait. It's right here, dude. No, this is done here. Yeah, it follows up by the camp. This is mirror lake road. Elstown forces. They are here to break. 51. It's changed. It's this little... 51 is right here. So, that's missing. So, the bottom line is this map is missing. No, the map has it. It doesn't have Tucker Road. And I always... Tucker Road is on there. Whereas, if you said 51, I don't see a 51. It's on there. We had it, I asked Barbara to enlarge it. So, it's... So, you can read it. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to read. So, Tucker Road is... Rural 60. So, John, where did you... You said there was a number 51. Yeah, and a 60 right here, Sharon. I know it's just on here. We actually deleted your house. Don't try to go home. It's gone. It's burning now. How are the computer these days? So, John, can we go back to Chapin Road? You said it's number 51. Chapin Road is... Because I don't see a 51 on here. No, it's not on there. Oh, okay. It's 51. You gotta add that in. It's never been on there. And we've been shorting this. Yeah, that's... Actually, it's... No, we're not shorting ourselves. It's just on state maps. It's just not on our ordinance. And GAR Road is number... Town highway. No, Chapin is 35. 51 is... I don't see a number on... Can you read that? No, Chapin is not 35. I was wrong about that. Chapin is 50. If you guys come over here, you can look at my map here. This is... This is disorienting because it's cut off. South Carolina. No, it's 51 is Chapin. 51 is Chapin. Yeah. And... Look at the... For the town of Forest down the bottom. That's... Yeah. There's a road sitting there and it says un-improved U-U-U-U. That's the road I was speaking of. That is... Yeah, Chapin. Probably 12 feet wide. So Chapin is number 51. Yeah, and that's missing. So that way in addition. So essentially, what I did was, folks, and I'll provide you my logic. I've been driving around town and just for a while now looking at how many new residences have been built. We don't notice them. It kind of lets one year, one there. I moved from Woodbury to Cowles in 2002. And in the short time... That's short time. To me, it's a short time. It's a lifetime for many. Seven houses were... Eight houses were built on just my road between Adamant Co-op and where it ends up on Peek and Brook. Eight houses. And there are two other lots that are about to build. So there'll be 10 houses. That's just my road. And it's pretty much... You could replicate that across town. There are that many more residences. And these speed limits... The speed limits were arrived at 60, 70, 80, 90 years ago. At least since World War II. And our town was very much different. It wasn't as much a residential community as a farm community. And there were five farms on my road. And now there are no real farms anymore. Dairy farms. They're two hobby farms. So given the change in the nature of our community, that it's more neighborhood community, I was... I made changes to every single road that was posted at 35 to 30 miles an hour. Recognition that you're not trying to get from the farm to town, but you're going from one house to another, to another, to another. And it impacts all the folks along those roads. Well, I'm glad to have heard that conversation. More people coming and going. Yeah. More points of conflict. Yeah. So that is the logic behind my suggested changes to speed. The other suggested speed change. And we've been asked since I've been on the select board for 20 years, nearly 20, 18 years, by residents at Long County Road that feel that the speed is too fast. They drive through East Montpelier. And it's 40. And then they come to Calis. And the nature of the road is very similar. It's winding. It's as narrow or as wide as East Montpelier's stretch. And yet it's 50. And then they have to ramp down to 40. And then they have to ramp down to 25. So the other change I made in this draft would... What number is that, John? Page. It's under Article 4, right at the top. But page? Page 2. And it's in red, a maximum speed of 40 miles per hour beginning at the Calis East Montpelier town line extending northerly to a point beginning at 2744 feet southerly at the intersection of State 8 Highway Number 2, Worcester Road. Believe it or not, you learn something every day. Worcester Road. We think of it beginning at the corner by the blue barn. It actually, that piece between that intersection and Kent Hill Road is according to these maps all the same road as Worcester Road. Worcester Road stretched... Starts at Kent Hill. It starts at the intersection of Kent Hill and the Maple Corner store essentially starts there and then it left and continues. And that's all considered Worcester Road? That's all considered State 8 Highway Number 2 and as we know it as Worcester Road. So basically at the intersection of Kent Hill Road and what we would say County Road beginning at the end of the pavement from the end of the pavement all the way south to the East Montpelier or Calis-Town line is a total distance but the distance we're talking about...  I made a typo. It should have been to... That was a typo too. Where? It shouldn't say... I'm patient. It shouldn't be this... Let's see what you say. Where are you beginning and extending orally to a point? Yeah, that's right, that's right. Okay. I did it right. So it's confusing. That's so... Let me say it again. A maximum speed of 40 miles per hour beginning at the Calis-East Montpelier-Town line and then extending northerly to a point beginning 2700 to 44 feet south of that Kent Hill intersection. So that's where it begins. So that's the point where the 25 mile mile begins. So it's 40 between the East Montpelier-Calis line to the 25 mile an hour zone and then it drops to 25. And then the rest is what we know. So that makes that whole section of County Road consistent. There's no up and down, good. So people... That makes sense. ...through our 25, they hit 40 and it's 40 all day. Right, right to the 25. All the way through to Montpelier. Oh yeah, yeah. John, is that edited... I'm going to call it... Well, something about that. Edited line that you were just pointing to the first one under State Highway. There's State Aide Highway number one County Road. Then underneath the maximum speed of 40 beginning at the Calis-East Montpelier-Town line extending northerly. But then the next one is a maximum speed of 25 beginning 2744 feet south of the intersection. Yeah, same distance. Same distance. And then that continues north. That exists. That continues north. So one is you're measuring from Maple Corner south. That's the end of the 25 point. See what I'm saying? To the 25. And then the next line is the original language more or less. And that's just coincidence of the 2744. Well, no, that's the point. That's where it stops. That point is the point I'm measuring to either from the East Montpelier-Town line or, but that's the point. I see. I'm measuring to that. One place we're talking about one side of the point and the other place we're talking about is the other side of the line. So John, why under State Aide Highway number one it says County Road, Ken Hill Road, North Calis Road and Foster Hill. Why is it, why are those all there? Because those are this, these are State Aide Highways. This first section is all the State Aide Highways. We get different, North Calis Road is the State, North Calis Road is the State Aide. Yeah, part of it is. So for Donna probably remembers this or remembers talk of this. The State had originally planned and it's, it still designates State Highway because of this. To pave it from Worcester along Worcester Road. That's why Worcester Road is such a nice, smooth road. They, they, that was going to be paved all the way through Maple Corner and heading down Kent Hill. All the way down. And then, and then it bangs a left that peak in Brooke. Right at that intersection. North Calis Road. And it goes all the way north. All the way to South Whitbury. That was supposed to be a major thoroughfare. And I think some of Donna's trouble maker. Then Long Kent Health's growth standards. Actually, I heard from Gary Schultz that there was some old ladies who at middle of the night enlisted some help and they, the State came in with their surveyors and once they got all the surveying done they came in in the middle of the night and pulled all the surveys. And threw them in the woods and the State came through and they're like vandals. And so they resurveyed it that great cost, great effort. And it was done again. And they're like, okay, if you guys don't want to pave road we're not going to give it to you. I hadn't heard that story. That's too funny. It's a great story. So, yeah, so John's point that we've been carting this on our agenda for a while. It's been probably three years since we looked at it and we had several meetings in a row where we talked about stop signs. And that's in here. And those, those we never finalized because I think there wasn't consensus between the folks working on it and the board. At the time. At the time. I think there will be consensus this time. So, if you go to Article 5. Yeah. The other substantive change changes. Wait a minute. I'm going to get there. It's on page 8. Okay. Article 4, Section 1. It's in red. Yep. Ken Hill Road where it meets. Peek and Brook Road. Peek and Brook Road. Yes. We're finally going to have a stop sign. Would be a stop sign. David Elwin Bowman will be thrilled. There's nothing there right now. Yep. It's a bad spot. So, there's a stop sign there. Opposed. And then there's also a stop sign. The next one, believe it or not, is the intersection right across from the admin and co-op. A stop sign where there's no sign. Is proposed there. On the center. In the section of. Right across from the center. And stop at that intersection. Yep. Okay. The other row would be continued through. That's actually the highway. That would be the emergency route. So that would be the continuous. Yeah. Center road should be the stop action. Is that what you're. Yeah. That's what you're. Yeah. So. That's. The rest are just. This language clarification. Because this thing used to say all these. Well, part of all the road names in red. Were added from the request of the select board. Because it was just, they were just numbers. Right. We didn't know what number one. So Toby did all that heavy lifting. And I just, I mean, that was all done. The section two on page nine. You'll see a highlighted section struck. Both the option of a yield. At this intersection here at the bottom of the channel. And a stop sign. Which is section section one were provided. Ice pipe. And proposing stop sign. Rather than the yield. That's why it's struck. That was one or the other can of both. Right. And so that is it. And then on the very last page, 11 is just the added language. Recognize. And this is yet another iteration. Another version to be adopted sometime. Actually. I propose that we adopt to set the next meeting. 27. So be February. Can I ask one question? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do we. Can I ask one question? Yes. Adam at co-op down to that in that, you know, that area is that large expanse of gravel. And we've run into opposition in there, but that is.  Way over. Yeah, I get it. Cleaning this up. One thing. If you want to control speed around that. Road. And in that congestion, it would be to really bring that down to the standard road widths, tee it up, green out the rest of the space, or maybe have parking, you know, separate parking for the out of my co-op in front, but not have the road touching the steps. I know. This is like a nod. And it's costing the towns, you know, a lot. That's a lot of plowing. Snow plowing. Go through there. And then it's also a risk. I mean, it's. That gets into road design, which. That doesn't have anything to do with this. No, that's good. I'm just bringing it up. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I'm going to. I'm. I'm going to say something here. So you and I talked earlier. I. We've talked a lot about speed. We've had a lot of people asking us to do something about speed. We've talked about. And allocated money from the ARCA funds for study, but we haven't done anything to make that happen. And we're not going to have a chance to do that. Right. I'm. And I would support. 30 miles an hour on all of our town roads. Where they're 35. Where they're 35. Right. So here's my. Here's my. Given what we heard earlier. About. Curb cuts. Where all. All the conservation commission did is go through. And actually refer to the plan and make the record. A little more substantive and layout a clear process. More transparency. I mean. It's a much better document. It's a much better document. And it's. More clear. And there's. There's. Not. And there's not. There's not substantive changes. It's. It's incorporating things that weren't clear before and updating the 19 year old ordinance. I. This. And in. And only affects. New curb cut people. Right. Anybody who comes in and applies for a curb cut will have a new ordinance. There you go. You know. This. Changing the speed limit in town. Is. Every single person who drives on our roads. And I. Even though I support it, I would not feel. Great. About. Approving this. Next time. I where I would feel where I would feel. Okay. About. Approving it next time. You guys can argue. I mean. You can argue with me. I'm only one vote. But. I think we're. You know. Saying a stop sign is going to go here. I mean. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Stop sign. We decided to stop sign. We've had a lot of discussion about that. Yeah. Over the years. I had a location. Recorded. Like an ordained location for that stop sign. And in case you ever got law enforcement. And. That's what we did. So they all. That's what they're all. Right. They have to be a certain. That's what. That's what.  Right. No. But I think. They're not. Trying to. That's that's. That's what. John's talking about. The location of the sign. That's definitely. We can't just go. Put a white dot anywhere. Once you. Sorry. Describe what's at the intersection. So stop. At the intersection. So. I think. He's worried about your location. The precise look. The. No, that's not that's not something that's. An order, it's not any. That's never been. Their science. For. Of. and they write you a ticket for that stop sign. If it goes to court, I've always thought that that stop sign had to have its own ordination number and that location had to be pinpointed. There was a map of that location. And if it wasn't there, it's invalid. I don't think that's how it works in Vermont. Because I hate people who don't have distance where the law in Vermont is where the post is, is the stop presumed stop line. So if you stop beyond the post, you're in the intersection. Well, and John, I can tell you that this, the draft that you're holding, that says where there are or where there are stop signs. This, that is, that is not substantively different than this ordinance has been for as long as anybody here could remember. Right, let's first adopt it. Except there's a couple of places where we're saying, it would be good to have a stop sign here. This was originally adopted in 1990. Yeah, so it's, what, 30 plus years old. Yeah. So that's my point of view is that if we, you know, I don't know if the point of view we heard earlier on the curb cut is widely held and that that's something that people need a long time to chew on, but this one I would imagine people will have a reaction to. It does affect everybody, not just the applicants for a curb cut. But we can, Sharon, because I totally agree with you because I think this is a big change to things. And I feel like it's kind of not being, I don't know. Well, we can warn it for, we can warn it for a vote. Next meeting and folks can come and speak to it and we can decide whether or not to vote it or not. So I wanna, hang on John, I wanna just, I wanna check in with the, I would, I would choose to warn it only for the stop signs and then give, give the, you know, the draft to the, and John, it's, I, you know, the people petitioned us on County Road.  And here we are, but we're gonna just wait, wait again. Well, we could make, we could make the County Road changes that people, that I think are defensible. People have been asking for that. We had a lot of conversation about County Road speed. We could make lightning red changes. That's another one we keep saying, you know, Doug has been here many times. We all know about that. And it's not, it's not that I, it's not that I don't agree. It's just that I, I want us to not be making ourselves more vulnerable to, we didn't create enough discussion. Madam Chair, the reason I made it 30 across the board was to provide equity. We discussed this on the phone. And first I was just going to make a simple set of changes, but I wanted to provide equity so that I, if Marge is living on a 35 and she sees, you know, Bliss Road is going to 30. Well, you know- I can't agree with that, but I just don't know if people have really paid attention enough but that they need a little more time. Right, right. So Marge, what I'm suggesting to the Chair and you and anyone else who's listening is that we warn it for a potential vote. We do this all the time. We've done this for the 18 years I've been on here. Suddenly this is something we're afraid to do because of one commenter tonight. You warn it for the vote. The public shows up, or not, the public shows up, says, you know, we're really concerned and we don't vote. But I know- That's how it's done. Marge, Marge, Marge, let's let them vote. That's how it's done. We've heard you- It's never been done any different. We always warn it for the vote and we have to take comment, every ordinance. So let's- The road standards, same thing. Let's hear from our other colleagues who are sitting here. This has been on, I hear what Marge says about the public and providing that opportunity. This has been on our agenda for years to get this done. I don't think I'm so concerned that people, I don't think people are gonna be opposed to a speed limit being reduced more than as much as they would if we were saying the county road speed is 40 and now we're gonna make it 60. Great.  I remember all the times that David Ellenbogan came and asked us for a stop sign at this intersection. I mean, I really appreciate that the public should have an opportunity to weigh in. And if they come next meeting and there's a huge problem, then we don't have to adopt it. And the other thing that just- And it's already been something that we've had since 1990. And the process is, just so folks know, we adopt an ordinance, it doesn't go into effect for 60 days. There's a 45 day window where the public can come to this select board, actually the future select board saying, we don't like that ordinance or we don't like these particular areas. We'd like to, so they can ask the select board to have further hearings on it. They can, a 5% of petition containing 5% of the signatures of 5% of our electorate file at the town clerk's office will mandate hearings be triggered in that adoption process be stayed until there's hearings. That's the public process. That's the process that's anticipated. That's why there's notice. It doesn't go into effect for 60 days. And so the public weighs in that. Right, it would come in. Yeah, I tend to agree with John on this. I mean, just in the couple of years I've been on this board, we've had a lot of feedback from people complaining about speed on these roads. And a lot of just like County road I completely agree with. That's consistency across that road. It's really bad to have speed limits jumping up and down. It's better, but where it's definitely, I think that's a really good move, the stop actions, all of that, I think those are all good. We're not living in the 40s or 50s anymore. Like John said, we're having increasing traffic loads. So these multiple intersection areas that have just been free-flowing are going to be more and more problematic. We have to, that's, it's more than traffic coming when you have a warning sign like that. That is, because it starts addressing these issues that we are hearing about regularly at speed. I think the reduction of the 35 to 30, I'm okay with that, there are places, I mean, I can go either way on that. I'd like the, the fact that we've got trees, we aren't cutting clear zone. That's natural traffic calming. So I think that I actually like the lower speed limit. We don't have serious accidents in this, yet, like John said, we're building out slowly and roads aren't as slow. These tend to be pretty institutional once they get, what we do now is probably gonna be here for another 20, 30 years. Your risk run, is that development happens to get more and more traffic, you get more and more drive, curb cuts. Every one of those is a new point of conflict. And so I'm good with this. And I, like I said too, if people show up and want to, you know, we can debate this, we can do it. I, you know, I've certainly heard a lot of feedback, you know, that would be supportive of this and you know, since we've been on the board. So I am good with going forward with it. So where does that leave us? Is it two or two? Well, we're not voting. Well, you said you agenda madam chair, you either agree with your question. Yeah, John. Go ahead, John. It's fine. I took, I can agree with the lower speed limit, where would we get an enforcement on? We have, the only enforcement we have now, the only enforcement, the only enforcement we have is the sheriff and people being good, responsible, respectful, might I add, to me, driving the speed limit or less on some of these roads is a matter of respect. This is what I tell my husband all the time. Slow down, I am disrespectful. I think, I wasn't really done, but okay. I mean, it's not that I don't support it. It's a question of the timing. And so, and I can see three different points of view. One is this general public feeling like this didn't get enough airing that we're reducing and people having, you know, even if we warn it, it was, you know, only one meeting and people might have a reaction to that. And if we were gonna continue to be the board dealing with the heat of that, that would be one thing, but we're not. And so that brings in the second point of view is a new board feeling like, well, hang on, you left, you did this and you left it for us. On the other hand, the third point of view, let me finish the third point of view is a new board saying thank you for getting that done and getting it, so it's done and it doesn't hang out. It doesn't hang out on our to-do list.  And I think I'm saying all of that out loud because those are the people who are gonna have to deal with whatever happens next. So we wouldn't be putting this on for a vote until next meeting anyways. That's right, that's two weeks. So that's two weeks. We can put it on the town website. And I'm perfectly willing to warn it having an awareness that people could go either way. They could be grateful that it's done finally. It's been hanging out for a long time or there could be a reaction that says, not enough public input. Not enough public input. Thank you for drafting it. And the public that show can say, we don't like this, we don't like this, but we like this and like this.  I don't appreciate it. And I feel for the next select board if this behavior is gonna continue. You know, we're not making money on this. We're not making out. We base our decisions on our best, we're making our best effort to represent everybody in this town and do it as well as we can. And, you know, this stuff is at this point, it's like almost in our DNA, we've been hearing this stuff for decades and we're trying different approaches. Rick came up with the speed signs, you know? Do we warn a big vote and have hearings on that? No, we put the signs up. And, you know, I heard someone say, I don't like that blinking sign in beautiful maple corner. You know, well, we'll move it. And if this ordinance doesn't, if it's too much, too fast, then we'll hear that at the next meeting. But if nobody shows up and nobody cares and they wanna throw mud balls next summer because someone posts something negative on from Port Forum, I don't know how you defend against that. I don't know how you represent people like that. You know, I think we, people need to start participating in this democracy in this town, you know? They gotta start actively participating. Like Jamie and Marge and Donna and John are doing almost every meeting. But most people don't have the time that we are lucky to have being retired or whatever. And what happens is when people, when there's all kinds of discussions, people, a lot of people are paying attention at that point. Now you've got something in a draft form that people can actually look at and they can react to it. And two weeks is, I don't think there's enough time for people. Unless you, and putting just things up on the website, nobody, most people don't look there. So Marge, the paper used to be somebody would come out and report saying, hey, this is what's going on.  So, go ahead and finish. I think that giving people the opportunity to know that now this is what could potentially be decided. There isn't a really good mechanism, unless you've got someone complaining on, I think that some of these things that affect the whole town, there needs to be a little more on the front push form because that's where it's at. You know, or at getting a report and put it in the paper, but people don't read the paper. I just think what happens is that people don't have enough time to react to it before you make it. But you're not listening. I think you're not listening. The statute anticipates the public process. The public process isn't beginning and ending in two weeks. It begins after the adoption. That's what statute says. So we adopt and then the public responds. We also hear in two weeks. So I'm gonna use your argument. Stop it, stop it, stop it. I want to use Marge's argument to push back qualitatively. We have just announced that we're gonna have a hearing on the ARPA money at this meeting in two weeks, $100,000. No, it's not on the ARPA money, it's on the bond vote. On the bond vote, $400,000. So we shouldn't do that in two weeks and make a decision? Well, you voted on it, but quite a couple weeks ago. As far as, I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying. We didn't vote on it, Marge, but the process, what John's point is, that that's the process, is that you, the Curtis Pond Association generated a petition and presented it to the board, which doesn't create a choice for us. It creates a, here's another item that needs to go on the warning and then we're following a process. And John's point is that we are following a process as well. Guys, we could keep- It's the same amount of time, but that's for $400,000, Marge. I just don't see- But then there's a, but we could keep debating this and it's 9.30 and none of us are at our best in a debate that has no clear answer. Everybody's right, everybody is right. I just want everybody to go by the same standard. If we're gonna have a bond vote for $400,000, which also anticipates adding another $100,000 after the bond vote, which we did, so like two weeks notice for that informational meeting and then we go right into town meeting and the decision. Is that also by statute? Yeah, we're following the statutes, but it's interesting. Okay, interesting. So I am wondering if we want to go to- Let me just ask this question. How much time do you guys want to mourn at the next meeting for this? Because there probably will be some- Half an hour, you know? But if nobody shows up. Well, okay. Rick, I'm gonna ask if we can move things around a little bit, if I would love to hear a road report, but let's, we've had Donna here for the whole meeting. Hi, Donna. And then for the folks who may be interested in the update on dam insurance, the update on dam insurance from passive is they're still looking to find more downstream money and they have- Downstream coverage. Downstream coverage. And they have been in active updates of still looking, haven't found any, still looking, haven't found any. That's the report there. Donna, come forward and join us on the grants management. So I sent you spreadsheets. Maybe we could start with my wife. Can I have a copy of this here? Okay. Does anybody want to copy? I made it. I did not want to do that. I made you do it. This is the same one? It's probably the same. This is- Yeah, because I looked at this before. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Thank you, Donna. Donna, you're welcome. Yeah. Have a share. It's Donna. Don't worry about me. Maybe if we could just start at the top and just quickly go through. And there's two for you to sign. So for the Kent Hill scoping study, I don't really have much information about that. Is that, I mean, it's the innermost, culvert out here. Right, it's the culvert here, right? What is the next step? We're gonna vote on something tonight, I think. You know, the grants are on the project. I mean, we're aware we're in the process. Yeah, where are we at with this project? Well, they did the scoping study. Right. So the brick application for that is, right, that's what we're voting on there. I believe in you. Because, thank you. Two scoping studies? I don't think so. Rick would be the one that would know what was going on. Because, I don't know what on that one, I'm just trying to come back, I forgot it. I did bring my glasses. Can I just ask a question here? This one, it's very important. My question is just kind of a bigger picture. Donna, we knew you wanted to come tonight, but we didn't, are we gonna go through each of your files and look at a spreadsheet? Is that what you were thinking? No. I guess the important thing is to sign the two, the Mosca Woods Road and the Grants in A. So that we have, yeah. Ken Hill Road, I have some stuff at home on Ken Hill Road, but you said you had everything from the Grants, right?  I probably don't have any more information than what you have then. Okay, well then let's just go through this. Okay, so after Ken Hill, there's Lightning Ridge, and that work has been done. Right. Until he's getting some of the documentation. Okay. Okay, and then Mosca Woods Road, you can sign that tonight. That's one of the important things. Yeah, I said, yeah, at least Mosca Woods. There's the clay boils, not too confused with the bridge. That's the one that, yeah, they got them all the stage project. Right, and then there's also the East Calus project. So there's the effects of those. Do you want to just put the password on so you can sign it? Yeah. We should make a motion. I'll make a motion that we sign off on the Mosca Woods Road project. Is this the clay boil one, Don? Oh, what? Is that the clay boil one? Oh, we're not. Yeah. The motion would be to pay 20% of the $70,058 amount. Okay, this is fun. No, wait, no, that's your report amount. Is it 20% of that, or is that? No, aren't we signing the form for request for reimbursement? Is that plus 20%? Oh, it is. Yeah, this is a request for reimbursement. Yeah, that's right in there. Oh, I see. They just put the number on. They don't say what the project is. But this is the number of the amount. Wait, is the award amount the amount we're getting? I'm confused. We're going to be getting back original award amount, $70,000. Plus 20%, or is that? Is that right on there? Original award, class two, 100% of the work is completed. The municipality's portion is 15,000, $57,000. The amount that we're going to get back is $60,228 and 24 cents. Right, yeah. Yeah. So this will go back into the highway budget, basically. Because we put it out up front, and now we're going to get it back. So that $70,000 number is your amount? That was the total amount of the project cost. Okay. And it's right here