Yo, yo, yo, it's your boy Nick Chey. Today we're doing a pack with me because I've just wrapped up midterms And I'm heading home for spring break. Thank God because I can't wait to be in some warm weather So today I'm just gonna be going through the types of clothes I'm gonna be bringing just to you know, stay functional and stay fashionable while I'm at home And yeah, let's just jump into it. I have most of my stuff set out So I'll just be pretty quick about it. Alright, so first off obviously pants Even though it is going to be probably a little bit warm in Texas I still like to wear jeans and long pants when I can so number one are these Black denim pair from Banana Republic They are called the traveler and the reason that I really enjoy these black denim pants is that they're very comfortable and very flexible Meaning that you can constantly wear them and break them in without worrying about leaving any stains or anything like that I think the quality of my Levi jeans are a little bit better But when I'm using these on the day-to-day, then I'm probably going for this pair right here I'm probably just my adidas joggers just to stay comfortable whenever I need to go work out or something just an easy pair of Joggers to be relaxed in you guys have seen these pants before they're the pinstripes They're also cropped at the bottom and they're just a really functional and factional piece that will be really light in the springtime So obviously going with this one as well.  These are honestly so fire now as far as my suitcase I've mentioned it before but this is the away suitcase. It's the medium carry-on size and honestly This is a lifesaver actually asked for it for my birthday present last year because I was starting to travel a lot and having a nice Functional fashionable look good-looking suitcases like super important. So away medium plus please sponsor me honestly The great thing about it is that they have these like compression straps meaning that you can compress your clothes down So you can fit a lot more stuff in so I'll show you guys when it's all done But I wasn't planning to do a whole lookbook, but let me just put these on so you guys can see what they look like But like this this shirt's pretty fire. I got it in Korea a few years ago, and it's honestly super fashionable Gives it a very spring summery vibe. I should do a spring lookbook. Honestly. I'm actually running a please Next up is this pinstriped over shirt I've worn this a few times before honestly the shirts like one of my favorite shirts ever because it's just so fly like I'm probably bringing home this H&M button up The thing I like to do when I do go home is probably bring home clothes that I don't tend to wear at school So I have a little bit more options while I'm home and that way I can clear up my closet and have some more space So I haven't worn this a ton. So I'm just gonna keep it at home. Next up the CDG sweater I got it, but it was actually running a little bit small So I'll probably take it home to give to my brother same thing with this Adidas bomber jacket Like honestly this jacket is super fire, but once again, I've kind of been growing So a lot of my stuff hasn't been fitting anymore. So good thing I have a younger brother Who's my size now? So let me pack this up real quick All right, last few things. I just need to pack some toiletries So obviously my face toner and my face lotion all this is going straight to my top kit Which I mentioned before but it's just like a toiletry bag that you can use to bring home I'm also going to probably bring home my Dior savages because I want to try out my new cologne at home. Obviously toothbrush retainers Now one thing I am starting to realize about traveling more is that you kind of want to have Stuff left at home so that you don't always have to bring bringing stuff back and forth So, you know keeping like a face washing kit or lotion or toothbrushes at home So you already have everything you don't need to be packing that every time you leave for college is a huge must-have tip I just like to use these little small bags to just organize my luggage a little bit easier So I'll probably put my underwear and socks in here I say I'm going to be bringing my belts and honestly I'm just going with these two combinations because like I said You can mix and match them so I can change out the belts and the buckles to have you know four different combinations So this is honestly pretty fire So if you can see right here, this is those compression straps I was talking about so you kind of Strap them over like this And then you pull and then you pull them and they just Compress all your luggage so it's all nice and compact there This side is probably where I'll put my jackets and what not So they just lay in there like that This will go right here.  I'm trying to think if there's anything else Obviously going to be packing my laptop my laptop charger my camera equipment that I need to go pack right now All right, it's time for me to back a little bit of my camera gear So for any gear heads who just want to know what I'm gonna be shooting on Primarily obviously the Sony a7r3 with actually now Right now I'm filming on the Sony a73 I'm gonna use this for photos this time because I haven't used this and I want to try it out a bit more So I'll probably be taking that With this 16 to 35 lens, but I'm also gonna be testing out this bad boy the 55 1.8 If you guys have noticed I've been shooting a lot more film lately And that is all done on this Olympus mu2 camera and honestly this baby is beautiful And it's a point you should film camera and I do so much with it. It's awesome Damn, I hate having to bring so many cameras, but probably my vlog camera just because I don't know what I'm not gonna need it Later the worst about being photographer is you never know what's gonna happen So you need to always pack for that I'm probably a speaker just to have it for music I guess and this would be good now the challenge is going to be Packing all this in my backpack even though I said it's a bigger backpack It doesn't feel like it's a bigger backpack because I'm still struggling to get everything in But that's the T Okay, then that that's about it for this video. I hope you guys enjoyed I know it wasn't too crazy I just wanted to show you guys what I pack when I go home If you guys enjoyed make sure to leave a like comment down any more videos You guys want to see and as always don't stress


Hey, hey everyone, this is Carlos founder and CEO at product school and today. I'm here with very Hoffman Who is the chief product officer at CISU data? Hey, very it Hey Carlos really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to have you on the show I was taking a look at your LinkedIn profile and you are probably the first person I've ever met in my life That has the word product in every single job like you can you are a pure breed product person That's true. Yes, I have been in in product roles pretty much my whole career and Actually was very fortunate Kind of happened into that career and just just have loved it. So yeah, it's been a fun ride So they're gonna be more about that first job like when you were trying to you know break into the workplace I how did you actually become a product manager from the get-go? Yeah, absolutely. So You know, actually, I will say I had a pretty non-traditional even though I've been in product roles my whole career I had a pretty non-traditional path into Product I think particularly in the Valley we think of the archetype of a product person being someone who probably has a CS degree You know has some training as an engineer. That was not me. I in undergrad I studied history and economics and was very much liberal arts background and I Was born and raised in Minnesota and so the first company I joined was actually a Minnesota based company I moved back there after after undergrad and Joined a company. It was called compelling. It was in the technology space a data infrastructure kind of storage enterprise storage company and had interned there actually in a marketing role and Was very fortunate that one of the leaders at the company in in the marketing department specifically kind of just said to me Hey, you should do product And I honestly didn't even know really what that meant or what product management was and but I love the company I love the pace that was growing. I love being in the technology space and so I said, okay Why don't we give it a try and Candidly my first boss probably did not want to hire me I was not the background that that he was used to hiring So I say all of that to say I was very fortunate that a company was willing to take a you know place a bet on me and I learned a lot of both the technology and how to be a product person on the job and That's something I initially actually I Think was reticent to talk about it was something I probably hid a lot in kind of earlier days of my career was I Wanted to come across as you know, I'm your typical You know technical background and almost hid that part of my path into product, but it's something I now feel really strongly about talking more openly about because I think I Think it's important that we kind of open our minds to there's different paths into a product especially as you know kind of amplifying and extending the Different representations of different types of people particularly in technology I think one way to do that is to be open to different paths and so anyway, it's something I like to share now that I Think it's important part of the dialogue is hey I had a non-traditional path and the company was willing to take a bet on me And I kind of fell in love with the role and and have never looked back since I Love it and I agree with you. It's important. It's a lot of people who are looking up to Others like you or chief product officers who don't have your traditional engineering degree and I made it and they keep building And they I make it learning and and that's what I want to explore with you in this conversation It's like few years after your your first job and fewer jobs you you could spend four years at Google as a head of product there So tell me more about about that experience because obviously Google is a huge company So when we say you are the head of product, it's not like you're the head of Google, right? You were owning the Google hire product. That's right Yeah, so I'll maybe start with just a little bit of contacts on my path into Google So that was actually through an acquisition So I was at a company that I joined very early stage company called bebop We're about nine people when I joined and we got acquired in 2015 and so at that time You know, we we were it was a really I think an Fortunate setup in that the CEO of bebop which was Diane Green who had co-founded and was the CEO of VMware She actually came in to lead all of cloud for Google And so we were very fortunate in that I think bebop got kind of got to continue to operate as almost a little startup inside of the cloud organization and inside of Google and And that was kind of the context in which I got to Continue to lead and and we eventually launched Google hire as a recruiting product And then you know eventually took on a couple other products in the recruiting space as well And it was it's a very fun interesting experience to be able to kind of have To work on as you said a product that is In some ways you're kind of trying to operate as your own little company or startup Inside of this behemoth that obviously has so much going on. I think it really opened my eyes to You know how I guess a couple things one I would say how to think about When you have a platform like Google and I don't mean a technical platform I mean a Platform with the kind of brand and reach and and customer base that a company like Google has It actually ended up really Influencing our product strategy and that was surprising to me to actually say the way we think about building this product And the way we think about bringing it to market is actually really different Even though we still think of ourselves as this little startup. We can actually leverage the reach that Google has But then there's also things that probably not surprisingly can feel like they're slowing you down a little bit and a lot more, you know Whether I have alignment building but also just understanding where do we fit in this broader ecosystem of offerings and And Honestly where you fit can change a lot more rapidly when you're talking about a company at Google scale because they're placing a lot of different bets and You know those bets and strategic directions can evolve Quickly as they should and so Anyway, it was a very interesting experience and I think opened my eyes to Even when you think you're operating as hey, this is just our little product our little domain inside of this broader company The context of being in at a place like Google does really change how you think about product strategy. I Mean I always Admire product product teams at Google. I think they're actually one of the pioneers and product management training because when they created this first APM program That was really unique and in a way when we created our own product school The idea was to democratize the type of access for for people who don't work at Google So, you know deep respect for that and I can imagine that for someone who's a builder who's being a startup Who's not acquired by a larger company, you know You that mindset that you are that you acquired can be applied so many different contexts, right? You can always decide to build a larger organization. You can decide to build by yourself now. You are back at start the world So please tell me tell me more about your current company and what your role as a chief product officer there. Yeah, absolutely so So chief product officer at CSU data we I've been there for about a year and a half coming up on two years in January and Currently leading our product management Design and actually have post sales team right now as well And so that's something that I think is an example of you know traditionally you wouldn't think of post sales or maybe even in some cases design kind of being part of the product organization Particularly at a company that's gonna be at Google scale, but it's an example of something where Because at an earlier stage company, we you know, we spend some time looking at what makes sense for Where we are and what we're doing today and one of the Things that I that got me really excited about joining CSU and happy to get into this a bit more later if we have time is You know, it's a space data and data and analytics and kind of decision-making and how we as as Professionals how we as businesses actually leverage the data we have to make Really more informed decisions. That's really what we're in the business of doing at CSU and that's where we see a big opportunity to to kind of do a fundamental rewrite of how Companies actually extract some of the insights and answers they need to make better decisions with data and I got really excited about that because those are the types of problems at the end of the day decision-making is a Multi-user multi-step Workflow, right? It's not just about the technology to go do the analysis. It's actually about how do we facilitate? People coming together as humans and making better decisions and I share all that context because I Think that helps underline why having being able to have Product management design and post sales who's interacting day to day with our customer base Why that really made sense for the type of product that we're building to have that very close tie-in and very tight feedback loop with You know people in customer success roles to have really strong partnership between product management and product design where we're taking a very human-centered design thinking approach to how we Build a product in a space that candidly is very crowded And I like to say like the world doesn't need another analytics tool, right? It would that's not what we're trying to build we're trying to really change and facilitate better decision-making Which I think requires coming with a deep deep deep understanding of How businesses are making decisions today what works about that what doesn't it's not just looking at Hey, we're in this little box of analytics tools, but it's a whole workflow and I share all of that like I said to say I think Being at an earlier stage company allows you to do to be a bit more Creative or flexible about how you structure an organization and how you think about Product and how product works with other functions in that organization To facilitate the type of you know customer centricity or user centricity that I think it's going to be critical to our success at CSU You know, I mean there are a few things there that I got my attention one is you said that post says reporting to you. Yes That's cool. And I'm very unique. I've seen very different configurations and there's no right or wrong answer Which I think it's a beautiful thing in product There me more about About that like how do you come up to the decision to kind of have that team part of the product team? Yeah, absolutely. So this is where This is where again it was it was not that way initially when when I started and it was a decision that we made Collaborative collaboratively as a leadership team because there was so much Knowledge and and just valuable insight that we knew our post sales team was Gathering from how they were actually interacting and working with We we our target customer is kind of a mid-market to larger enterprise customer. And so you've actually got people who are participating in some of that like onboarding and implementation and and training and You know, we knew that we we really wanted to capture the Insights and learnings from those interactions and have them feed into an influence how we thought about product strategy and where we invested and You know, there's a lot of ways to accomplish that without making org changes, but You know, when we kind of really sat down and looked at it. We we felt like Why not? I mean to your point it's it's it is non-traditional It's a bit of a different approach, but it it it made sense for what we wanted to achieve which was honestly that kind of continuous feedback loop and also post sales being very close to What we were building on the product side, right? Because we're an early-stage product and so if they really understand and know what's coming in the roadmap they're better able to kind of bridge some of that value to customers and You know, we we made that change several months back and have really gotten a lot of benefit of that tighter feedback loop And I think it also sends a very powerful message Internally, but also to your customers about how much product cares about The entire lifetime of the user not so much about closing the deal and then moving on to the next shiny object Exactly. Exactly. And that's actually, you know, big shift for me has been Actually spending a lot of time on what is that full customer life cycle journey? And how do we think about Both from a post sales managing that journey, but also Tying that into different product metrics and engagement metrics that we're looking at at different stages. So Absolutely, I think it's a It's a nice way to solidify. It's the full journey. It's not just closing them up front So this this major trend, um, some people call it product-led growth, which I think aligns nicely with What you were saying is really putting the product at the center of the entire organization and the user journey Yes, it's important that product has to represent your company and there are a lot of users that need to see a little bit of the product before they Commit, but it's also important to to invest in product for the users who are part of this journey and make sure they are Engaged so they can also extend their their agreements with you in a probably more less heavy lifting way Yeah Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually I'm glad you brought up product-led growth because it is it's like the buzzword of of our of our uh, this moment in time and I think it's something that is easy to equate or interpret as product-led growth just means free trials or you know Some kind of Purchasing flow, right that that allows someone to have some sort of like demo of free trial experience and I think of it differently. I think of it as product-led growth is really just a recognition and a decision to say the product experience is a key driver of how we both acquire and expand Usage because right those are the two ways you grow you acquire new customers and you Uh get more usage or more value to the to the customers you already have or to the to the users you already have And really all product-led growth means is we are betting on and investing in the product experience as a key lever for that growth in contrast to or maybe like in addition to Other more traditional methods which might be a sales team which might be you know different marketing campaigns and things like that and so To me it's so much more than a trial experience, right? It's truly the entire product experience at every moment depending on where that customer is in in their life cycle and their journey with your product is How are they experiencing it in a way where they're seeing increasing value and that is causing them to say I want to grow my usage. I want to grow my investment in this product Yeah, and I think a part of it also is seeing more chief product officers Because it might sound obvious in in some context, but it is not back in the day There will be a lot of the the most senior product person at the organization would report to a cmo or to a cto And now seeing that the cpo is there and that the ceo actually cares And in some cases come from a product background It really elevates the the role and the influence that we have on overall business So I'm curious to know about your own day to day because now you're not just alone building So how what is how is your role your day to day different than your your teams day to day? Yeah, absolutely. Um Well, I think the the I'd probably bucket my my day to day into Maybe three categories, right? And and then I'll try to answer the second part of your question Which is how does that differ than than the rest of the team? Um, so look, I think the the most important thing That we do as as product leaders, um, or or cpo's is going to be Really Defining and aligning the company on Really like our strategy, right? And and that's where I think that you're we're recognizing the Elevated role that product plays in the company's strategy And you know to do that I think I'm spending and it sounds Silly and obvious, right? It's um, but I think there's three things that that breaks down into there's what problem are we solving? Who are we solving it for? and how are we solving it And the what problem are we solving is where I'm spending a you know a ton of time Just really understanding what what are these untapped? Or un unaddressed needs that that customers have where we have an opportunity Who are we solving it for is all about who we're focusing on who we're targeting at that time? and then how is We better have a differentiated point of view on and how we're going to do it and I think those three things And I want to underline too it's not just about answering them at a point in time If you know it's kind of as soon as you think you've answered those questions You probably need to revisit again and say like do we still have the right answers, right? and And are we aligned and clear as an organization on our answers to those questions? And so It's not it's not a one-time Exercise that is truly where I am spending and of course there's a bunch of the like Executional meetings and things like that, but When I look at my calendar and kind of where my mind share is going it better be 80 plus percent to What problem we're solving who we're solving it for and how we're solving it? and I think that the delta to get to your question of how is that different than when You're you know, just kind of an icy or or owning a piece of the product it's it's Maybe different mostly just at the granularity at which you're looking at that right because that what I just described is what You know in you know individual product leads in a certain area are doing for their area And it really is just a question maybe of both time horizon and scope at which you're answering those questions I'm trying to think a couple years out. I'm trying to think across the entire Company or even if you know the entire product or if we have multiple product lines whereas individual pms are trying to think more at the Uh, whatever scope it is that they're that they're owning Yeah, and I like that observation because there's a lot of uh pms or mid-level pms in the audience Might be thinking well, maybe strategy is just for the vps and cps and and I like what you said about Well, this triangle of what we are what probably are we solving what we're solving it for and and how It kind of apply to every single level like maybe your scope is smaller But everyone should be thinking strategically around like the big problems. We're trying to solve Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's actually the the Maybe I think when you start to recognize That that is actually your charter as A product manager is actually owning defining setting aligning the strategy For whatever scope it is that you own that is when you shift from being a product manager where you're just managing tasks to a product leader Uh, and that I think is that is regardless of title, right? That is totally can be done By individual pms for the area that they own Love that regardless of title I think leaders lead and usually people who get promoted have been leading before that official promotion. Exactly. Exactly So how do you go about building a successful product team? You mentioned your own background is not a technical background So when you have now the chance to build a team to hire What are what are your your main like ways to do it? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think first and foremost, I would say Spending time on really saying for the stage we're at or for the role that I'm hiring or for the makeup of the team right now What what am I optimizing for in each hire? And I will say one trend or pattern that has been really important to me in the context of startups Is finding people who and I like to say not they don't just know how to navigate ambiguity, but they thrive In ambiguity. They are energized by it, right? You can the the pms who do really well in kind of startup or high growth environments Are people who when you throw them a big ambiguous open-ended problem? they're like I love it because I get to figure out what this means where I take it how I do it and Look, there are some people who want to be more in they like Give me a space and let me optimize within This space and that's okay But those people are not going to feel energized in a startup environment And so I think you know one of the things I'm looking for and thinking about what I'm hiring is This needs to be mutual fit on both sides, right? I don't want to force someone to do something that they don't enjoy doing and you know, especially at early stage the company needs product thinkers who who To dig in and are you know love that ambiguity and that complexity and the opportunity to say I'm going to set a direction here Because there is no defined direction um, so that's one thing uh, and then I think the the second thing that I really look for is problem-first mentality uh, you know I think Where I see most Projects or or products go off the rails is when we didn't spend enough time on really understanding the problem we were solving and why it was important to solve for the for the segment that that we chose and so I think there's ways to to test for that to to really look at you know I actually will do intentionally some really open-ended prompts or discussions in interview processes and say Just pitch a product idea right because that starts to test like how do they deal with ambiguity? How do they deal with big open-ended questions like that? Do they really align us on the problem before we start diving into the solution? So again, those are all things I would say particularly in the context of startup environment That I'm thinking about this is what we need and this is so these are the things I'm going to test for and I think the key point here is Getting crisp about what it is you need in the role for the stage you're at or for the makeup of the team and then making sure you're reflecting that in the interview process So one thing you mentioned going back to your positioning as a company for sisu data is that obviously a lot of analytics and data tools in the space Which in a way, I think confirms that the opportunity is huge because there's a lot of them are going public the raising money That's that's great for everybody But you said that you are not you don't want to be yet another solution. So what is that unique position? What is that actual problem that you are solving you mentioned decision making but like can you kind of give me the next level down? Yeah, absolutely. So So yeah, the next I I like to say I will go so far as to say if all we do is build an analytics tool We will have failed world doesn't need it. So, um, so what are we solving? That's a that's I think What has been interesting and where we've spent a lot of time as a as a team and company over the last year and a half Since I joined is Is actually digging into and going and talking to customers Not tell me how you use xyz analytics tool Because that actually then all you're doing is you're just recreating You're saying what's painful about like the space where you've kind of boxed in other tools And instead instead saying, you know talking to analysts for example and saying where are you spending your time? What's painful about it? What are you hoping to accomplish? Right?  Why did it go up? Why did it go down? And they're jumping into Other tools whether they're writing sequel or writing in a python notebook or trying to cobble it together in a bi tool And then going and summarizing it in slides and summarizing it in a doc So it's an example of where when you kind of take a step back and say Well, tell me what is actually What you're trying to influence, right? You're trying to influence and and react to Decision makers at your company coming with questions about the data and you're trying to elevate Their understanding and their insights into the data in a way that can influence the decisions they're trying to make Well, that's actually spread across a bunch of different tools And what's really painful about it is Actually the way you're trying to answer some of those diagnostic why questions Super manual Right, like they're going in and they're saying like I think maybe it's This particular subgroup like let me go test And so that's an example where like what we're doing with sisu is we're actually saying Flip that on its head and Point sisu at whatever data set you want. Say here's the metric you care about We will look at every dimension in the data set every subgroup the million billions of different combinations of Of dimensions that constitute subgroups in the data pull out the ones that actually add statistically significant impact And that's where you focus so out of these billions of combinations. You've got the five that has statistical significance on metric performance It's a very concrete example, but it's it's where to maybe go in that click layer click lower is There's these why questions these diagnostic questions that are coming up You need to answer them in order to influence a decision in a timely way The tools you're using to do that today Way too manual And so that's that's the problem we need to solve for you. It's not go build another dashboarding tool. Yeah, totally get it and I mean, I've noticed that in general now it's data is not just for the data teams, right? It's not like oh, I need a dashboard data team, please build it for me, right? So what is the role that the product managers are playing now into this entire decision making process? Absolutely, I mean we think of so there's kind of two core personas that we think of we think of that kind of analyzer And whether they have analysts in their title or not It's someone who's very close to the data And then we call it like the kpi owner who could be a product manager Could be a leader in customer success could be a marketing manager But it's that that person who probably they don't necessarily maybe they write sql Maybe they don't but they're not necessarily in the like weeds of the data modeling but they're close to the To the metric they care about their their they need to own the performance of that metric And so I think a big gap actually in so many analytics tools is like they've not been built for collaboration between those two parties They've been built for let's give you access and visibility into your data. That's what a dashboard does It's not built for how do we collaborate and communicate about this and how do we actually Then put together the summary of this and share it out and make a decision So that's when I say the workflow piece of it That is where we're really trying to rethink and say Actually, you know a product manager is a perfect example of a persona we need to serve How they collaborate with that that analyzer In getting to the right decision Well, I I love this interview because I was asking you the questions that I personally care about as a product person You know, and it's really resonating a lot of your answers resonating with me and I know I could go for hours And just need to stop at some point Be respectful of your time, but I want to thank you. It's been awesome to learn from you Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed being here and I hope I hope it comes forward and is clear that I'm so passionate about Just product and product thinking and so really appreciate the opportunity to be here and talk through some of this stuff


Hi, my name is Martín Del Pino, I am from Argentina, but I'm currently living in Spain, in Barcelona, and I will be part of the E4C Fellowship of this year 2021, and I will be working in the Sustainable Development Goals, Industry, Innovation and Infrastructure and Responsible Consumption and Production. As a Fellow this year I will be working with Habitat for Humanity. Through this Fellowship I hope I can make a real contribution to Habitat for Humanity, that is a high impact organization, and help them to improve the sustainability in their housing access projects. I believe in an engineering that addresses the real challenges of society and nature, for a more equal and sustainable human development.


Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very honored to be joined by Andy Zilgen. Andy, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks Bart It's great to hear from you.  I suppose I guess yet in a tertiary way I guess you're right. I don't I don't play that well. Oh, that's funny. Well, you you come from a long line of Symbol makers. I mean obviously from your last name people should be able to put together that you are a member of the very famous Zilgen family, but That's just the it is the most interesting story about how it everything went and it became Sabian, which is just You don't get many families that have two of the most famous symbol companies in the world So that's just why well, no, you only have one family that has that I'll play sir. Yeah So why don't we just jump right in here and why don't you just take us through the beginnings of Sabian because like I Mentioned before we started recording. I don't don't take for granted that everyone understands The the Zilgen Sabian connection obviously you being Andy Zilgen. You're a member of the Zilgen family So just go go as deep and far back as you can and I'm excited to hear it Sure. Well, I won't go as far back as as 1623 because I think most people already know that that history but I'll go back as far as my father being not having come back from the Second World War and He was an infantryman there and and he was always out in the woods and his friends said to him after he came back Bob, why don't we go get you out of the city for a while? We'll go hunting and fishing and we know a place and they came all the way up here to New Brunswick Which is you know one of the questions I used to ask the old man a lot was you know There were no trout in New Hampshire because we lived in in Boston and it's like you couldn't have gone two hours you had to go 12 and So anyway, he came up here He really liked it and that kept coming back coming back hunting fishing meeting all the people really liked the ingenuity the creativity of Who these people were their farmers? Good hard-working people really nice people and then come 1968. There was a Tariff between the United States and Europe so it was difficult and expensive to ship from anywhere that was not a commonwealth or an ex-commonwealth country and the ones that were local were Bermuda, Bahamas and Canada if you're going to build a factory the first two would be wonderful places to live but as factory goes that'd be really tough and Since he was friends with people up here and liked it and and knew of their ingenuity their their integrity Etc. He said that that's what we're going to do. So he He and his dad made an agreement that they were going to build a factory up here And at that point they were going to be making second-line symbols And they were going to be finishing some symbols that were made down in the Boston area with the zilge name on it and ship over to Europe just before the All the materials for the factory arrived my grandfather said what are we doing this for we don't need to do this I don't want to do it anymore and my dad had already put the money out for it and and had everything all set up knew He was gonna hire and all that type of stuff So the only time the only time in his life He had his father actually sign a contract He had him sign a contract saying that for what it cost to build the factory He could buy the factory with everything in it from the company if he ever needed to and Right, I know and it's crazy because it hit it both these guys would have arguments like crazy There was one secretary who the first issue is there I thought oh my god I'm never gonna I'm not gonna have a job there They're gonna kill each other because it in the in the ancient Armenian way or let's just say Mediterranean So yeah, they'd come in in the morning and they'd be screaming at each other.  Where are we going for lunch? So, I mean it was never really an argument, but it was right. Yeah, they never they didn't hate each other It's just the way they work and Right, but so anyway, the old man did have the have him sign a contract saying that he could buy it for what it cost to make and came in in handy my that was back in 1968 and As as the folks up here started to learn how to make symbols they were taught by the folks down in Quincy at that point and They started making the asco the Zilco symbols, which were a second line nice symbol It just didn't have quite the same Finish to to the sound and to the and to the look et cetera as you would from from what that point was You know just the a's the a zilchins. Yeah, cuz that's all they made back there at that point So the guys in Canada were we're learning how to make good symbols As they as they were going along they were they were learning how to make more and more improvements to what they were doing so they're getting better and better at it and then in 1972 there was a new factory for a zilchin company in Norwell at the same time the demand for for symbols was going up to the point where Zilchin company was making the stuff that was just selling out the door fast fast fast fast medium high hats I forgot what they call them new beats or something like that Yeah Medium rides and that type of stuff They were just making all the easy stuff that was selling fast and get it out Whereas up here they were making Chinese swish pangs. They were making extra thins They're making extra heavies They're making all types of different things and they were learning different techniques for how to make symbols that were Not the easiest things to make Then 1976 my dad goes over to Istanbul argues just like you did it used to do with this his father with the guy who was Mikhail who is the owner of the or we thought the owner of the factory the zilchin factory K Zilchin yeah over in Istanbul argue with him for a while after Like a month of this he ended up saying okay good. We've got an agreement. We'll buy the company Found out that the that Mikhail didn't actually own it It was the guy who they were buying their copper from who on the factory. Oh, you do the whole thing over again Wow but at that point Kira pay who was Mikhail's brother Had two sons and one of them was in the company and the other one was had been in the company was stuck in the army at that point and The younger one was Michael and Michael came over to United States and started working at the factory in Norwell and he was there for a couple of months and The I can't remember if it was immigration or if it was the IRS one of them came in because You know, they found out that there was a guy from our Istanbul who was working at this factory no green card. No no Immigration nothing and said to my grandfather. Is there a Michael zilchin here and he said yes It was very nice boy works a very hard good boy He will never to be on the dole and they said yeah, but does he have a green card? No, no, no Don't worry. He pays taxes very good boy. And they said young yeah Well, this is those he's got 24 hours to get out of the country. Oh boy. Wow right, so he'd been there for only about three months and He's quite a character to made a name for himself with everybody down there and up here So the folks up here said hey wait a minute. We can get him up here legally. It's not a problem we just have to go through the correct channels and So he packed up drove up here and started teaching everybody up here how to make hand-hammered symbols So ever since then we've had that technique to make hand-hammered symbols and our competitor has not Right and then his dad came over Keter pay he came over who is that the K you came over to To Canada and he was working with us for a long time here teaching us how to hand hammer and do it correctly And and then his other son his older son Gabriel came over and and he actually just retired this last January So yeah, and since 76 so Anyway, things were working out well through 76. We were making all the case is what people call the Canadian case Sure and very famous. Oh, yeah, and and people like Neil Peart were playing the Canadian a's at that point And didn't really even know it and but they could tell the difference. It's not that they knew why it's just that they knew that something was different about it and Anyway, when when my grandfather passed away in 79 the My dad and my uncle were good friends But at the same time they had differences of opinion on on the house and why is it of doing things at a company? And my grandfather was the referee and that's avid is the third correct your grandfather is avid is the third, right? That's that's that's the way we wrote that history. Yes, it is So avid is the third and then your uncle is Armand and your father is Robert just to clarify. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah That's right. And and yeah, and my dad was two years younger than my uncle. They're good buddies They used to hang out They've got great stories from from when they'd travel together when they were kids and all that type of stuff But you know as you get older and you get ideas and and you want to things see things go your way You need to have the referee and when my grandfather wasn't there anymore things sort of speed wobbled and fell apart and so It was a better idea for us to not be working together instead of working together and just creating much more anger So we did we left we left and we started saving at that point and The cool thing was again there we are with all the guys who could make all the difficult to make symbols They could make all the hand hammered symbols and we even knew how to make a second line if we needed to and Then at the same time we had to learn how to do the easier stuff. Well, that's easy So we had an advantage a really good advantage there We we opened the company in 1981 in December We weren't allowed to sell in the United States in 1982. We had to wait until 83 but that was a boom because We could make all of our mistakes overseas which was that was my dad's regular territory was overseas in international sales Yeah, so he had a lot of friends and they they gave him some leeway and stuff And you know like for example, we ended up getting some copper for the the melting room which wasn't really that good and The symbols came out what we call mealy in other words They were a little bit soft so they didn't sound good and when when we found out about this Some of the stuff had already been shipped down in New York We took the truck down in New York picked up all of those symbols brought him back and and and brought new ones down in New York to Cover that because we were there's no way we're gonna let anything that was not the best we could make Go out into the market and that type of attitude stays around today. It's just part of our DNA Yeah, one thing I just want to say real quick is that I have heard You know from I don't think there's any obviously there's some some stuff between the companies but I've talked to people from Zildjian one thing that I know Up and down is that people really respected and loved your dad I mean Robert Zildjian is just known as a great guy But I've you've said it a few times. He's known as An incredibly smart International businessman. I think that's just something that has made been made very clear in some research. I've done so And clearly he used that. I didn't really know I knew that the whole 1981 couldn't sell until 83 thing, but I didn't really know about the Go over internationally Use kind of test the waters and work out the kinks until 83 That's just him using his his, you know, international smarts Right there. So that's really cool to learn. Oh, yeah, he he was smart But his his one of his phrases was you know intelligence without perseverance is nothing And so he was definitely the well, it's just a dream really and he was definitely someone who's saying if I'm gonna set my mind Do I'm gonna do it? Yeah, and um, yeah, and uh kept going and kept going that made a big difference that and of course, I mean he just He was friends with a lot of people.   Just look at this. No problem. I'll fix it Sorry about that. Yeah mistake. That's that's the kind of thing that we you know, we stumbled on the first year But of course it all up. Yeah, sure And before we move on can you explain just so everyone knows I think it's pretty obvious what it is. But but like kind of define a second line symbol a little bit What is a second line symbol? Okay, um Well, let's see for example nowadays a second line symbol is be would be what I call access what we call xsr And that's um, it's not made to the highest standards that our Our regular top line symbols would be like ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah and artists Those are all top line. There's no quite. They're professional, but xsr would be just a little bit Less craftsmanship that goes into it. Maybe um something that that is not done to the symbol that can keep the the price down to a lower level So it's it's it sounds good if it doesn't sound as good Um, and it costs less understood. That's perfect. Okay, just to kind of get everyone on the same page now Um, okay, so then the 83 the companies you're up and running everything's going great. I mean I feel like I like looking at old catalogs and stuff. It seems like you guys just really hit the ground running Well, yeah Mostly because you know, my dad had been doing this same type of thing internationally So to do it from a central and well Not just internationally had been doing it. Um in the states as well He did a lot of close work with our marketing Agency in the states for not only us but also international. He did a lot of the accounting at the company as well And um, you know for for him to have left and started his own was really just an extension of what he had been doing For him, it was all pretty easy Yeah, you guys you guys had obviously a ton of really great Endorsers right off the bat like phil Collins.  Do you know how that went where like let's say I mean before you guys there weren't many other options of symbols to play Was that something where like what was the driving obviously quality that you guys have very quality symbols But would it be like hey? You know player x you've used zuljin for a long time Um, what would be the driving factor for them to switch to sabian then was it a relationship with bob or was it like A desire to try something different For a few people there were things like that. Um, you know relationship with my dad, which made a difference. Um, you know people like, um, well carmine Yeah, love my dad and um, and uh jack eventually but um of Harvey mason was definitely one that came over because he was very good friends with my dad and um uh The way it really happened was At that point there was there was zuljin and pisty that was it for first symbols to be used and um when we started We had an alternative. Well, you know, we weren't zuljin. We weren't pisty So if if for example, you didn't like the pisty sound, which is that's not a hard thing It's it's its own specific sound and you may not like it But you also don't like what you're getting from you could get from z company and Um, not to disparage them too much but at that point as a monopoly They didn't really have to try too hard And so um, sometimes you didn't get what you were looking for at all And so, you know, the folks were saying this is not the sound i'm looking for and then they heard the hand hammer When when people heard that the hand hammered symbols And knew what they were and the sound the tone the depth the darkness the richness that comes in that type of symbol It was a real easy switch for most of them And for the most part we started off with the jazz guys and the education of teachers coming over and Playing the hh and then as some of their Students were listening to these symbols they'd come over but they'd play a a because they may have been a student of one of these guys But they played um hairband metal. Yeah, so they they and they couldn't play an hh It would just be way too dark and that they were playing at that point a a And uh, so that's how we started to go that way and and phil Was one of those guys um, who just couldn't find what he was looking for at z Had been playing piste for a while, but was not really excited about the Um The lack of character that's in the symbol like that. It's got a great piercing cut. There's no question about that Definitely beautifully, but as far as it goes with having body and personality They're really missing a lot and so he he wanted that and uh when phil came over Actually, he came over because chester had come over. Yeah Chester was playing it in his band and phil said good god. What's that? That's funny man. I mean they are beautiful symbols. I've used um A number of them on different so I do some session drumming stuff working as an audio engineer I kind of get I don't get paid as much as a normal session drummer because I'm there and I just get to do it But um, but like the regular hats. I think are what they're they're called. They're just amazing You know, there was there was a um in atlanta. I can't remember which studio was dang it But it was it was uh, it was a studio down there that said if you don't have a 16 inch a a x studio crash Which is what they were called back then. Yeah, if you don't have a 16 inch a x studio crash go get one now before we start Yeah, that's what they say that every person who came in. No, that's very true. That's literally exactly we have So at gwin sound where I work we have that exact symbol and it's um, I think someone bought Someone it was well before my time But someone I think in the early the late 90s. I believe went and did a big purchase and bought like they bought Those symbols those sabian symbols that I mentioned and then like a dynasonic a supraphonic a pearl wood fiberglass kit And um, and it was just like a like and then I looked at it, you know, 20 years later and I was like, well, this is just a Great set of studio equipment, especially with the the sabian gear he got. So um, yeah, it's really good for the studio Wow, cool. Yeah Cool stuff. So um, all right, well, let's keep going on the the timeline here because your your father was still very heavily involved You're obviously I should have mentioned this before you were the president of the company And another neat thing to mention Is what sabian stands for so it's your sister sally your name andy and then your brother billy, right? No No, no, no, that's that's a a normal misconception and everybody thinks that we just put the ian on the end, right? Yeah, um, but no, it's it's s a for sally. Okay, b i for billy a n for andy Okay, oh, I see that order. So I the order wrong, okay, right? No, not well But you get to remember there was also each each one of us got two letters Yeah, in the name, right. Yeah Interesting. It was one of those things my mom came up with it every once in a while She came up with something you go, whoa, how did you do that? Yeah Can't underestimate moms, right? Well, she's just usually driving along or with with the old man driving. They used to come they They drive up to the factory, uh, which is about six hours from where they lived at that point And I live very near where they did so I get a long drive too But that they'd be driving home having a cup of coffee in the car and chatting about well What are we going to do about this? What should we do about that?  Willie you've done it again click Man, that's wild Changed kind of I mean changed drumming history with that. That's awesome Well, the other choices were symbols by bob Which no is by bob, right and canadian symbol company. No again. No, wow How things could have been with I know but symbols by bob that doesn't really have the right Ring to it. Yeah, not a lot of ring. No. No, that's awesome All right, so carrying on here into the 80s then just kind of with the history of the company You guys are still in the same Factory then this was the you took over the zilco factory. I mean this this It's serendipitously Like when bob in 68 got the contract signed that all just came to fruition I mean that that really worked out in his favor. So he That contract is the reason that he got all that Hugely without that we would have been sunk that we had had nothing. Um, soldier would have owned it. Um They would have been able to say not let's it just close it down and that would have been it for us Yeah Yep, but yeah, he was it was that that I don't know how he he decided it was a good thing to do But thank god he did have they all have grandpa signed that so we had the factory up here But at that point when we first started we didn't have a melting room because we were we were getting all the castings up from from norwell and then Carrying on the ovens etc from that point and moving on My dad my brother They both knew what the secret was to the to the family process And so it was actually pretty simple for us just to put together a melting room So we did at that point put together our own melting room. And so from that point on we were completely independent That was we we knew we were going to be leaving them in the summer of 81 And between the summer of 81 and the end of december put together the whole melting room So that when january 1st hit we were ready man. We're yeah, I don't want castings. You don't need to like Reveal your age or whatever, but how old were you at this point? Like were you working there? I was still a kid Okay, I was a kid. I was 16 Do you know? I mean, I would just love to get like obviously there was there was tension between armand and and uh and bob Where it led to this of like we both have the secret but like god I would just love to know his thought process leading up to that day of going into Work and saying I'm done. I'm not doing this. That must have been you said if they were already kind of button heads of a lot That must have been an explosive day when he brought that up uh Yeah, yeah I'm I was not privy to the actual conversation But I do know that at that point as was typical the old man came back.  You know, so uh Yeah, it was hard to actually for me to define which day that was Maybe there just wasn't lunch that day That's right. Where are we going for lunch? You figure out your own lunch. Yeah The relationship had to be very Damaged between the two brothers then Right. Yeah, I mean that that just had to kind of Drive them apart Well for for my dad the the real Cut was It wasn't just it wasn't just arming that that he was arguing with it was also his niece and and he was having real issues with her and I'm not Pretty exactly what those issues were but they were not getting along at all and um and and uh, there were members of the board that were Siding with uh with one side of the family and not the other and what got my dad so angry I know with his brother was that arming was allowing that to happen and that's what made him so upset with arming but As time went on eventually When they were both sort of in their in their 80s um They started calling each other and and it was it was the typical um, you know Boston Armenian However, you want to put it metatranian thing you get a phone call from from your brother. Hello Ah, you're not dead yet. There you go, right? Nice to say hello, but that's the way they used to talk with each other. Yeah No, I get it completely of like so so they did as they both got older they Did sort of obviously it wasn't the most, you know, they're not saying I love you and stuff But they did talk a little bit towards the end, right? I actually I think they did at the end of each each phone call say well lucky bastard I love you and that would be about it. But then at that point Um, arming wasn't very well. So they he wasn't traveling and um, and they weren't getting together that often Or I'm sorry. They were not getting together at all, but they were making phone calls and connecting that way Got it. Okay. And and your father Bob passed away in 2013, correct? Yes, yeah, okay. Got it. All right.  Sure. Of course. Yeah Yeah All right. So then in the 80s kind of getting back with the history then, um Keep it keep it going there. What what else happened? Well, let's see in the 80s what we started we started Like for example the campaign of saving and switchers, which you're talking about people switching over the to the cymbal sound and um And so we were growing that way and at that point, of course people were getting into that the heavy metal hair bands and um, uh 15 cymbals on a drum set. So boy did that help because at that point Well, seriously, oh, yeah, totally playing four cymbals on a drum set We're even a smaller cymbal company right now But that did help that helped a lot because people were getting a lot of cymbals and and and our sound um As we are we're creating new new cymbal sounds um Was fitting what people were looking for one of the things I like most about what we do is because we we don't have The encumbrance of any type of of history or we do have history, but we're not encumbered by it We will look at it and say this is the proper method to make a cymbal But it can be anything anybody wants it to be So we have fearless innovation if you say you want something that sounds like a dinner gong and and you want it to be shaped like a Whatever we'll do everything we can to make that work for you. The voice of the artist is exactly what we want to Accommodate so we're not afraid to come up with stuff And we weren't then too and we were coming up with all different sounds that we're coming around We had sound control back then which for me was it still is one of my favorite cymbals It's just so good It was a regular cymbal a little bit flatter but with a little tip at the edge going up So what happens is as the sound the energy you hit you strike a cymbal The the energy goes around the cymbal and it goes into the cup and back out again and As as you as the energy goes back in and out It's re-vibrated by what's going around so it's it's that's why you hear or you see if you did it on a on a scope You could see the sound Spike up and then come down ridge come down ridge come down ridge come down With the sound control because it had that that a little bit of of lip at the edge The sound going around the cymbal was was pretty uniform And the sound coming through the cymbal from the belt to the edge back and forth Was pretty uniform as well because it had a wall to bounce off of And so what you got was a quick spike and then a nice decay that was Not fast but but a good quick decay and you could have a flatter cymbal doing that So oh my god, you get these deep rich tones and you hit that thing and just it explodes And the biggest problem we had with those was that heavy metal guys loved them Because they go into a store or whatever and they hit them with with a 7a that was over there that they could try out the the cymbals with and they'd say god that's great And they'd go home and they'd use their uh five b's and they'd go from behind their head to hit these things Which is not what they did at the store and they just rip right through them Absolutely right through them. Yeah. Oh god. It made me cry because even the hh the hh Sound control 22 inch ride is still absolutely my favorite ride of all and I've got one that I keep So that if I'm up here working and I'm doing things like accounting or whatever And it's it's starting to pull out whatever hairs left in my head and I think I just can't I I can't do all of this Right now. It's just driving me nuts. I'll go down. I'll hit that cymbal and all of a sudden Everything's right with it just makes everything right. That's awesome. Oh god. It's just everything aligns now. Okay I'm cool. I'll go back up and I'll go do the accounting stuff again Everyone needs a nice ride in their office just to hit Well, I actually I leave it down in the vault So I have an excuse to walk all the way out to say hi to the guys on the way to in front Yeah, good. Get out of the office Yep That's awesome. So tons of cymbals. Um, obviously if they like that cymbal It's not great that they were breaking them a bunch, but they would buy more, you know, that wasn't your intention Obviously, but we had a warranty on them. So that was killing us too. Yeah, right Well innovation though. So you guys were very innovative. Yeah, we were working on On on trying to make all different types of sounds. I mean even for example back then we came up with with ba, which was um You know, it's very much similar to what piste was making on their hiring stuff But we were selling it as as low end because for us you just put it on on the machine that makes it near You're done Yeah, and um, you know a few more little techniques as we've gone along We've innovated on to make a little bit better But at the same time it's still not that big a deal And you know, there's ba and then we did a little improvement of that ba pro and But also during that time Guys were asking us all types of musicians were saying they wanted something a little bit different a little bit faster Um a little bit cleaner More focused sound and that's when we came up with the aax And and that one was was that was a game changer because we came up with that and then um As as happens a lot a few other companies started copying the same thing And um, and so we came up with aax had that sound coming out And we thought you know what because we're doing this extra hammering to make the aax sound the way it does Well, we try that with the hh and we did and that was hhx And yeah, and that sound just took off as well And was flying and then we get up to about 1990 shoot five maybe and that's when um, Like dave weckel decided that he was going to come over because he was hearing stuff that he had owned before But he couldn't find anymore And then he was and because he'd been getting canadian symbols and he didn't know it He didn't know it and the same thing happened with no pier like 10 years after that Like why can't I not find a replacement for the ride that I love and a friend of a mutual friend said well How old is that ride? He said well, I I got it back in 1976 Well, I think I know why and he pulled out his his saving I guess probably like a medium ride at that point and when neil hit it. He said that's exactly that's exactly it Where is this? How do I get that and he introduced us? So that's how things came came together there Wow, gosh very canadian too at being neil pier and And and just a great canadian drummer. It's all it's all in the in the canadian family there Yeah, and he didn't know he had just had no idea so funny and why would he? Yeah, absolutely. No, and I don't think uh, I don't think people would realize that just plain and old, you know An old symbol they may have and realizing that it's actually the same dna as um one of the newer Sabians, which is which is just fascinating to me.  I mean, they're still great today, obviously, but very bright I mean it kind of shaped the sound of that that era of drumming with having brighter symbols both the way they look and sound just makes it just you know, you you see a 90s kind of drum set and Um in a good way, obviously very bright and clean chad smith big endorser of yours I always think of I mean he's I always say this on the show, but the endorser is what is how people know about your company and when people think of chad smith They think of sabian, so I think of funny when I think of chad smith. I think of funky awesome drumming and funny guy. Yes For sure. Yeah Staying innovative and and I mean gotta talk about a long time endorser right there. Many of them are longtime endorsers You know, it was cool about him is that that When we picked him well, we didn't pick him up. What happened was he was part of the thing called the pepsi pepsi Band shoot. I forgot the exact name of it But pepsi had a bunch of bands that they were supporting and our guy who was during artist relations at that point up in canada He said, yeah, we'll be a part of that and chad was in a band called toby red And and toby red got picked up by the pepsi thing and he came by he saw us at the summer trade show Which at that point was in chicago and and he had this a bunch of of those floppy Albums remember those old floppy ones that we get like in a magazine Yeah, yeah, I know you're talking about and it was all red and he came out and he said hey I want to give these to you guys and we were like, hey, this guy's kind of happening. What's up? And kind of funny having a good time and energetic, etc. And he said yeah, yeah, it's it's in my band toby red That's why the album's red All right, that's corny. Yeah, we found it out afterwards that chad's not corny.  Yeah That's awesome Cool. So how was the relationship? So so now is we're into the 90s and stuff. Obviously, um, you know zilgin was still going on saving was going on How was the relationship then I mean because you guys I don't know if they underestimated you but you were approving yourselves to be You know a very serious competitor So as you get through the 90s, was it was it pretty much, you know, you stay over there We'll stay over here and we'll we'll just keep doing our thing um well personally, um, you know Interpersonal between my my dad and uh, and my uncle like I say and they're starting to talk to each other again But um, but uh, my dad and uh and his niece now No talking and as far as the companies were concerned, we were really just looking at them as competition And um, you know, I I was in that position that when this whole thing happened back in in um in 81 I was 16 years younger than than my cousins and so I I really didn't know them and I I didn't have any and I still don't have any animosity. I sort of know them But really I know them just as competition. So that that just sort of ended up being as it was But uh, as far as the companies were concerned Yeah, we were definitely competing and we were competing hard because we we knew that we could make Better and more innovative The biggest problem we had was 400 years of history that that it's hard to overcome And uh, you know, we're still in that position, but um, sure But we were doing everything that we could to um to overcome that obstacle and and really what that comes down to was Was again innovation listening to artists trying to be um a better partner for Stores musicians distributors internationally all types of things like that and um and that and that was paying off We were growing growing growing to the point where um I had the um The guy who was in charge of the second place company at that point looked at me and said he said I know that you guys split the company to take me out and I said not really if you actually met The people that were involved. I don't think you'd say that he'd say yes. I think you're in collusion If collusion looks like this I don't want any part of it Boy, that's like some conspiracy theory stuff right there. That's um, oh well Yeah, there's there's there's lots of and I always and hopefully people know this about the show Is I try and be as unbiased as possible because you know, I try and get include everyone and and all that stuff But um, there's tons of great companies. I mean with competition Leads to innovation which leads to yeah, and that's that's one of the things I like to talk about when people say like Like well, what did you guys bring? What did we bring when we started the company? um in in 1981 There were probably 300 different types of symbols Which would include not only their sounds their sizes their weights But also the finishes that you could get and so really there weren't the choices were pretty small And now there's probably upwards of about 3,800 different types of symbols sounds finishes, etc. Yeah Wow, so I mean it it makes it difficult because even I at times have a hard time figuring out what sound is is Exactly the one I'm looking for but I can definitely find symbols that are right for what I'm looking for So that's that's a benefit, right? Yeah, we we had innovation and competition just brought so much more So many more voices to the artist to be able to play the sounds that they're looking for Yeah, absolutely now, um Moving on through the 90s. I know people really like to hear about um the different lines that happen as well So we have the a a x the hhx.  Okay, let's see Um I try to remember the the names of some of these lines because I can tell you the histories of them But remembering what they were called. Yeah, it's a different story, right? Yeah, absolutely. I get a terrible memory anyway 70s were tough It was uh, yeah, um There was that there was one symbol Gosh can't remember any classic. I think it was what it was called and carapay was teaching us how to make this thing And we were saying we're carapay. This one is is it's a hand hammered symbol, but it's got a larger bell It's higher pitched. It sounds really Not what we're looking for and he said this is these are the best ones Hey, what do you mean? These are the best These are the ones that we used to keep in europe when we would send all the bad ones over to you guys in America They're like wait a minute. Wait a minute The ones that you don't like are the ones that we all emulate as the old k. He's like, oh, yeah, those were terrible Wow, all right, I know That's funny Well, at that point they they were all handmade in in um in istanbul And when when they put in the cup for example that heat up the symbol and that have about three or four Maybe even five symbols in a stack and then put the form on on on the top symbol And you take a hammer and whack that that form as hard as you could And so the impression on the first two symbols would be a very good strong bell And after that it would start getting flatter and flatter and flatter as you went down They sent us the flatter ones, which we all love nowadays. Yeah, I love them the ones, right They kept the ones with the high bells You know, it's interesting I I did an episode the history of istanbul agap symbols and um just that line of like that company coming off of the zilgen like literally being being workers at zilgen And they branched off basically at the time of this Of of the of the factory being closed in istanbul But to hear in that episode he talked about um cesar in that episode talked about The process of making the symbols over there and the hammering and all that stuff So it just it just reminded me of that and I kind of forgot that like How many different things are branched off of your family?  Well, um, so I have I have something open here obviously So there's there's hhx the evolution extension of hhx, which were super popular The paragon series that was always a cool and that was That was that was Neil Peiritz. Yeah. Yep. That was him saying look I I can't find the sound I'm looking for and then once he did find it saying, you know what actually I'd like to refine it a little bit and he came up and you know, he'd chat with mark mark love who's who's um um taken over from nord hargrove who was our original symbol guru to Now it's mark love and mark love is just one of those guys you tell him what you're looking for for his sound And he's already creating it in his mind. It's it's it's not only is it scary. It's really exciting to watch And I'm sure and him working together with all these people. I mean, he's he's worked with Anybody that you can think of that's come up with an innovative sound. He's been the guy who actually made that happen That's fantastic. Yeah Yeah, so he's of course, he's working with Dave all the time and uh was working with neil They were they were actually pretty good friends and um, yeah We just had to see neil very sad to see neil pass. Oh my god.   Don't do this and uh, and neil was the same way And so is dave these guys they don't hold back because they have expectations And they know what they put into what they do and they expect the same type of commitment from everybody else around them and so, you know when when like Dave dave will come up neil actually Came up a bunch and uh, he and my dad would sit on the back deck and then and then you know I have a little cocktail at the end of the day and talk about Symbols talk about history talk about players talk about comedians talk about philosophy anything It was just an open conversation that kept going and and the intellect and the um, the honesty from all of these guys Is really great because you know like you said if you're doing it, right? They're gonna tell you If you're doing it wrong, they're gonna tell you and if they say i'm gonna i'm gonna bet my voice My career on this instrument that you're making that's I don't think you could get a better endorsement than that.  That sounds terrible so their Honor is on the line with everything they do. So so that's that's extremely true. Um, yeah Now let's jump forward a little bit to when you took over and then I would love to hear about the recent more recent involvement with crescent Symbols because I don't know I I really don't know anything about that. So um So how was it? How was the transition for for you to become the president of the company? Well, actually, let me let me start back a little bit farther than that when we first started the company I was I was wanted to be a professional hockey player and uh, yeah crack clavicle two bad knees a busted jaw and Yeah Later, um, I decided that now I couldn't really do that. So I needed some discipline I joined the army and that was good because I learned how to Caesar always said you can't learn you can't lead unless you know how to follow And so I agree and so that that really did a lot for for my ability to understand leadership and and um camaraderie and so um When I got the chance I came up and was working at the factory and um, learned almost all of the spot all the steps That were going on at that point and then um became a road rep down in virginia west virginia, mississippi Louisiana, arkansas traveling around meeting all the stores selling uh symbols and and finding out what that was all about And then moved up to where I was doing Distribution management artist relations sales support Training and that type of thing and grew that from east coast to all of united states and then all of south and central america as well And that brings us up to about 2005 when the old man was was he had knee problems. He was having heart problems and uh And the guy who was in charge of the company at that point was a nice guy and worked worked hard But would never let anything go. He always wanted to be in control of it And so he got himself underwater that way and so I had to come in and and uh after Talking with with that about it said we got to let dany go And uh asked dany to go ahead and retire and he didn't I walked into the old man's office and I said well All right, dan's gone and he said well, that's good. I'm not doing it. Who is I thought oh god I should have thought of that. What have I done? Yeah, exactly. So it was one of those. Oh shoot. Okay, so we put together A contract and agreement on how to do it and I started taking over from there and um 2006 everything was was good. We were working together very well 2007. We were working together well and 2008 came Everything was great until around september and in september when everything fell apart the the economic Downfall happened in the states. He looked at me and he said well, I'm not participating in that I'm glad you have to deal with this. Goodbye Thanks, dad I mean, but that's the same time. He was still there. He was he was always my backstop if I had issues I just couldn't figure out it say like dad. What are you doing? And he'd Tell me and and actually one of the things about dad was was that he was never shy to give his opinion So even if I didn't ask him he'd tell me and say yeah, why are you doing this? And Yeah, so he's experienced always easy Yeah to get his opinion and that worked out really well until um, You know when he passed away in 2013 and at that point it's a it was a weird feeling because there was no more backstop Sure, that was gone. Um mom was still alive, but she didn't have the same Um understanding of of of the actual management of a company as dad did I could definitely ask her questions about a larger topic and should have a good opinion But as far as it went with detail stuff, um, that wasn't her her strength So, uh put together a good management team and things were going well But it was still there's something lacking. I couldn't quite figure it out So we had to rearrange the way that we were doing our management and the way it is is And I kind of lucked in with this one. I've got a chief operating officer Mike Connell who does really the day-to-day work and I'm more in charge of Of thinking about where we need to go how we get the company there Um, how we make sure that the symbols are are going to be Um, you know, what's the next step for symbols? How are they going to sound? Um How we pull together everything we need to to make sure we've got all the the right components to make Better symbols. Um And then of course, you know keeping up relationships with other people Outside of of of sabian people and in the rest of the industry because none of this isn't a vacuum I mean for example, but when my grandfather came up with the idea for a hi-hat All he came up with was the idea for the symbols William Ludwig the first came up with the idea for the sock hat And then it was the low boy and the high boy But they had to work together as as a as a team and it and it worked So there's always that type of of thought and innovation going on and trying to uh to expand our horizons with partners Absolutely, you make a symbol and the symbol even just down to the stand. You guys don't make symbol stands I mean it It has to work with and you don't just have a crash You have it as one tiny piece of a drum set. So you need to work well with other people Um, that brings it up to that the the stuff with the crescent symbol company. I'm very intrigued by that What's what's going on with that? well crescent crescent, um Mike bosbean and I had been friends for what I knew him and and we chatted and such and I knew that he was working with um with uh Who is it boss for us at that point and now early early on The folks who were who owned boss for us had asked us if we wanted to distribute them in the united states And I said well no But at the same time might we be partners with you guys and I went over to check out how things worked out at that factory And I was I was really um I wouldn't say dismayed. I was I was surprised at the way Manufacturing was done in istanbul. It was um very archaic and Yes, there are traditional methods that were being done but at the same time I just give an example of of some of the Some of the things that blew my mind was that um, for example when they were melting copper and tin And then you come out and you pour it The way we do it is you've got fire protection uniform on you've got a face shield You've got asbestos gloves and uh and uh other things for protection because if you get If it's raining you get a little drop of water on there and this has happened to us It goes And you've got a splash that comes out that um when it hit one fella on the uh, um on his Shirt it burned right through the shirt and went all the way down his back down to his ankle That heat that 2100 degrees was burning all the way down. That's a pretty serious thing. You got to take that seriously And these guys they're doing it in sandals with track suits Like oh my god, if this is the way that they're handling this what else are they doing? You know, they're lading was always just a little bit off and and their hammering was was was good enough Kind of stuff. So I just thought you know, no, I don't want to be a part of that and so And I knew this so when I was talking with Michael about what he was doing with phosphorus I said, Mike, you know, there's gonna come a day when you're gonna want to actually have More consistency, you're gonna want to have better sound. You're gonna want to have innovation And you can't do it the way you're doing things and he said, I know I know but I like I want that that ancient Technique I said, well, what do you think we're doing with an effort? And um It took a little while, but then he said, you know what? Yeah, I want to have that what you're talking about consistency Honesty you want to have honesty And he wanted to have innovation and so The the three of of them at that point it was Mike Fosbane who was the I guess you would call marketing distributor And um and manager and then of course there's Jeff Hamilton And uh stan more they came by and they asked, uh, what can we do? Let's see what you guys can put together and um stan was pretty easy. Um, his symbols are just weird But uh, jeff jeff was a tough one and he had specific He not only did he wanted to sound the right way He wanted to to feel the right way absolutely and he wanted the symbol to to Come down to I guess what you call really what we would call keyhole the hole So it would come down and sit in one position So he was always going to be able to hit that one spot and feel the feeling that he was used to and wanted to be playing on all the time Interesting. Um, yeah. Yeah, and and so that was a little bit different would never thought about that And um, so we we did we came together with with a a ride for him real fast Hats for him pretty quickly the chinese He has he has a chinese symbol that he uses for rides and a little bit of a little bit of accident once in a while My god that thing took that that took a long time It was like three months first to come to get that one right and uh, it finally came through and um And they loved it and so at that point what we said was great. We will make these for you You keep your name. We don't want any part of it because That's your business But I like these guys. There's a lot that we can learn from each other Let's let's roll that way and that was the way it was intended to to Play out what happened though was because michael, um, Bosnia had trouble with The companies in turkey they he had paid them a lot and they had not sent him a lot so he couldn't sell Symbols that he'd already paid for he ran out of money And and he got to the point where he said look I I they put me in a position where I just can't continue going forward I said Mike I didn't want to do this. But why don't we become partners on this? And he said okay that that works for me and it worked for for the other two fellows as well And so that's what we did. We ended up becoming partners But then after a while michael just said look you you go ahead Go ahead. I'll I'll take care of this side of of the business take care of the guys take care of of of um making sure that that uh, you know our our Innovation is keeping up with what we need it to be but you guys run with it and go and that's where we are now We're still partners with them. But in essence, it's a a part of the sabian line Yeah, it wasn't the intended outcome But he just got put in a position that was untenable and it wasn't fair but For for him the way that that he was left by the turks, but there it was What can you do? Well, it feels like something like again with the international business stuff like something like your dad and something like bob would have done And and seized the opportunity and and i'm sure it's going to be awesome It's been around for you know a few years now. So i'm sure it's it's uh people love it Well, I can tell you another story about uh That about dad he he wanted to he loved europe he loved traveling over there and he found out about italy and thought Whoa, this is I really like italy and so he found a company called um, I think it was called toscow and um, it was it's The the company um across the street from what is now or was then youth it Yeah And he decided you know what I I want to be able to go to italy. I like the symbols that they make they're interesting They're different. They were rhodocast as compared to rolled like we do them and um And he bought that company and so for years we had that company and what used to crack me up about it was The guy who managed it Had three sets of books There was one set and this is a very italian way of doing things There was one set of books that was for the government so you could tell them how much money you didn't make and you have to pay taxes And then there was then there was what he used to call the real books Which were the ones that he shared with dad And then there were the actual books the ones that he kept so that he could know how much he was skimming off the top Wow I know everyone you know when we found out I was like geez dad. What are you gonna do and he goes, ah come on He just let it go right we're doing well. He's that's just the way it happens in italy.  Yeah, I've seen a catalog of of tosco. Um I had no idea really sabian was um Was involved with that but that's I mean or I guess your your your father because that they're they're They were treated as just completely separate companies, right? He just had it as like an investment Yes, yeah, yep, they were and actually that was way back during the zilgen days when they were really when they were really something um, yeah, I mean Wonderful wonderful place interesting symbols, but but the way they're made they're roto cast They they they have a grain in them, but it's not a singular grain It's a grain all the way around which means anywhere that you hit the symbol You're gonna get a really quick sound eventually and not too long. You're gonna get a crack And yeah, and so it's unfortunate, but that those would go. Yeah Yep, awesome. Well Andy this is uh been honestly just a complete Pleasure talking to you because there's so many little things that I didn't know and um, and it's just good to get like like I've had a zilgen episode So I really am very happy to get both sides and uh, who'd you get on them? Who'd you get from them? We had uh, paul francison who was um Very very nice. Love paul very great. I think both you guys everyone's been very respectable and uh, You know towards each other, which I think is great. Yeah, well Andy I cannot thank you enough for being on the show and uh, and just being so You know quick to say yes and oh and thank you to kelly ray tubs Who's a great friend? She's actually helping me with some like um Publicist stuff and some writing up some stuff for me to you know submit to papers and things like that and it's just an amazing educator Um, just a great person great drummer and she's how we connected. I think you guys did some stuff at paisik together Which is awesome. Yes. Yep. Yeah, so actually and and she and dom actually have been uh have been in Connection much more tightly than we have. Oh, yeah. Well, that's awesome. Yeah And you don't have to thank me for doing this because I tell you I first of all, I love symbols So I'll talk about them all day No problem And uh, and and it's always fun to talk about the history of of the company and how things come along Awesome. Andy. Well, uh, thank you so much for being on the show and have a great rest of the day You bet Bart. Thanks and I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast


It's important for a number of reasons. One is ensuring the trust of the taxpayer gives us a great deal of resource but particularly now in a period of declining budgets to make sure that we have as much resource as possible for the sailors and Marines at the tip of the spear. Mission's not changing. The enemy's getting more innovative, so it's important for us to use the resource we have as effectively and efficiently as possible.


All right everyone, exercise number four in our progression. Number one was the rock back tuck with a pad under your left knee. Number two was rocking back and forth on your back. Number three was rolling back and forth side to side on your back. Number four today is a plank on both hands like you're doing the top of a pushup. But the focus now because you shift is now we need to scoot up from not just getting air out but we need to try to symmetricalize things a little bit more. I don't know if that's a word but I'm using it and I think you'll understand what I mean. So what we're gonna do here is try to push evenly in the ground with each of our hands. You might notice it's more difficult than it sounds like it is but that's kind of the idea here. Shouldn't be easy, right? So plank position, I'm noticing already that my left hand, the index finger wants to come up off the ground. My right hand is pretty flat in the ground. I'm also noticing my right wrist feels much better than my left one does. So we're gonna have to play around with that a little bit. Let's come up on our hands. Well, let's stay on our knees first. Biggest thing to make this work is we gotta tuck our hips. So tuck your tailbone between your legs. Do you feel your lower outer abdominals turn on? If not, maybe you did this. That helps me feel my inner abdominals but not my lower outer abdominals. So don't crunch your chest down. Instead, just tuck your hips back, okay? And I feel my low back round out. It kind of relaxes a little bit and I feel more of my abs turn on. If you still don't feel it, take a breath in, take a breath out, get all that air out. Oh, yep, and I feel them turn on even more. Perfect. Now, hang on to that hip tuck. Come up slowly so you don't lose it. Lots of times people will just do this. Okay, I lost it there. So don't lose it. Tuck your hips, come up into your push-up position and we're going to push away from the ground so that my upper back comes towards the sky. And now, as I was saying before, my right hand is flat. I'm just going to hang out here for 30 seconds or so. My right hand is flat. My left one doesn't want to be. So let's push that hand down a little bit more. There we go. Feel a little more even now. Good, trying to feel my abs the same. There, I think I got it. Keep breathing, see what changed. Now I found my right abs again. Let's find my left ones again. So the key here again is those positions that set up that we did, but after you get that, you should be able to do that on your own pretty automatically after maybe two days of trying this. And then the secret is let's push evenly into the ground. Make those hands flat. And then the secret after that, the next step as we kind of saw is breathing changes everything. So see what it changes. See what no longer feels quite the same. And then fix that.  And then we can start to put all these pieces together to fix this right hip shift. You know, when you do your right hip shift, we talked about earlier in the first video, your hip bone will come a little higher. When that happens, these abs turn on more. And so I have a right hip shift and I have a lot of right abs when I do my push-up. Do you think they're related? Yes, I do. Lance, thank you for asking. That's why we're doing a push-up, right? Not everything is just squatting. The squat is not totally independent of the upper body, of the neck, of the head, or anything. So we need to really appreciate everything that's going on at other parts of the body and not be so focused just on what's happening at the hips.


So now it's semi-final number two, so Wickelton we're focusing on coming up to tapes now, going out of game number three. It's been an up-and-down night for Ty, just squeezed in on seven points as a consequence of two race wins. And Kenny capitalised on that. Smarslake hasn't made a final. Well he's going through his mind, he knows he's never made a final yet. I think he might be thinking I would like to make the final. Pretty nice. I think it's overdue. Martin Vassalic riding great guns as well on that inside gate. And Jack Holder, another good night as well. On the inside in red then is Martin Vassalic, alongside him in gate number two in blue is Jack Holder. Gate number three in white is Ty Woopendon, barfed off Smarslake off the outside in yellow. What a semi-final this is going to be. It's got action written all over it. Yeah, semi-final, no it certainly will. What do you think Smarslake will be quite happy coming off the outside gate? OK, reasons? Just because he can generate the speed up there, that's where he likes to be, roaring around the outside in the dirt. He'll be very comfortable with it. He will have to look for who it is that pops out of the pack and then tries to roar across the front of him if he doesn't make a good enough start. Good answer, like it. And we will watch keenly on exactly what happens. Of course we are. All eyes on the action here. Martin has just taken their time. Jason Doyle had the first pick, of course, took gate two and he won nicely. Jack Holder did exactly the same here for semi-final number two. Will it be successful for another Australian here? Here we go then. Ring lights on now. Here we go. Yes it has. Jack Holder has made an absolute superstar there. Gato Slavik working, but it's Ty Woopendon. It's tight down the back straight. Woopendon, momentarily in the second place running wide. Slavik cutting the corner off. It comes back to me. Oh, it's Slavik! He's responded, but Slavik's through. Woopendon just getting his momentum and looking set for the final. Slavik, wow, he's had to work for that. And he's through the second place. Wato Slavik worked so hard for that he was inside, outside, using every little bit of the track. Meanwhile, Jack Holder, what a superstar. He chose gate two with confidence and he made it work absolutely perfectly. Looks like these two are going through at the moment. They are indeed down the back straight for the last time through the final corner. Jack Holder, absolutely fabulous moment there. He said coming into the night it was his dream, but congratulations to Jack Holder. Missed out last time in Goroshan. Fabulous right there. Got to say, gate two worked a trick for him. Flew away from the takes. He's been fast all night and he goes through nicely to the final. To join Jason Doyle and Freddie Lingwin out in front. Jack Holder and Wato Slavik through to the final tonight in the Narodobi. Martin Vashalik and Ty Woopendon just missing out. Softly tight coming out of that first turn. Action packed race once again. All action first cup for Laps, particularly for Bartosz Smalsik. But Jack Holder, look at this start. The bike just accelerates. He just winds the throttle on, takes it all the way into the corner. Meanwhile, Smalsik's on the outside. Ty Woopendon pops out the middle there. Looks like he's done enough, runs across the front there and Bartosz Smalsik. He goes in very wide, looks for the cutback, then realises Vashalik's already there. And well, what does he do?  He just turns to the left a little bit more and comes up the inside of both of them. Fantastic speedway. Smalsik was completely out of shape in the bottom corner. All that in control. No, well, it looked a little unsightly. Fine line. Fine line, yeah, fine margins, but he made it work. And for Woopendon there, just got a little bit out of shape there and missing out. He'd be frustrated with that. It was desperate to make the final as all of them were, of course. But for Jack Holder, this is a special moment for him. No doubt about that. Smalsik came on strong the longer the race went on. But he knew he had it. Delighted the Australian. We've got two wedges in the final. They're having a super time. Look at him. He's chuffed a bit to be making the final here in the now. Celebration's almost over-excited there, making his celebrations before he even comes out. Well, it's his first final he's ever made. Yeah, so that is a special moment. Chuffed for him because he's worked hard all the way through the Grand Prix series last year. He did.