This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Welcome to the Think Tech Hawaii studios. This is Andrew the security guy with another episode of Security Matters coming your way. Today we've got one of our favorite sort of convergence security engineering guys. Rodney Thayer is going to be with us. We're going to be talking about a lot of the programs that are happening inside the Security Industry Association, which is one of our favorite sort of lobbying bodies and really getting into standards development and see it does a lot of things. Rodney works really well inside that group. And Rodney, I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. I wish you were in the studio where you've been before, but at least we've got you remote. How you doing? I'm doing okay. All right, it's good to see you, man. Hey, I tell you what, I try to get my guests to talk a little bit about the things from their perspective in the security industry that kind of keep them up at night, man. So what's going on for you these days? What keeps me up at night these days is worrying about people being able to make illicit copies of access control cards. You know, card coins you can buy online and that kind of stuff, which is easy to buy on Amazon and not necessarily well known in the electronic door lock community that stuff's available. That worries me. You know, we've demoed a little bit of that problem at Interop. I think you were the guy with the copy gun and it took you about 10 seconds to make a copy of a card. Yep. Go ahead. So that kind of technology is commonly available. And even though we know how to build things better and that are quite practical, that level of stuff is still being used a lot. So we're still trying to sort of make sure, you know, friends don't let friends use procs. It's kind of what we say. Yeah.  Even the problem with some of the higher level cards that can have a certificate that's not managed well or not managed properly or not implemented properly. A lot of that stuff can still be copied. So there's problems out there that it seems like I think the customers aren't aware of and they're not asking their integrators to fix those problems. Well, what's your take on that? Are you seeing that mostly at the government level? Is it getting down into healthcare and, you know, are there critical infrastructures? Is awareness growing? Or even HID's website tells you that like 90% of the industry is still using these unsecured procs cards for, you know, perimeter access control. And I think that's a problem. Maybe it's just all awareness. So there are customers are getting better and better about this. So it tends to be the bigger businesses that understand it. There's still a lot in the vendor community who, you know, they've been doing it that way for, you know, 30 years, 100 years, whatever it is, and they just keep doing it the same way because they're not interested in changing. The thing that concerns me is, you know, some kids are going to get online and buy one of these things on Amazon and then blow through a neighborhood and pop all the doors for all those brand new condos they put in downtown Oakland. Yeah. I do get the feeling that the level of problem, it's not really being addressed very well at all levels. I see, I just left an infragar meeting before we came here today to the studio and there's a, you know, there's a growing awareness up in the critical infrastructures and, you know, obviously in the NIP sector and DHS is working to spread the word about physical and, you know, cybersecurity, where we fit in that role and access control is such a big piece of that and the credential is the big, well, one of the big problems. We'll get into the transmission method a little bit later on today. But I'll tell you what, let's talk a little bit about what C is up to. You've got a great thing that is you're doing over there. You've got some sessions and I wasn't sure if they were monthly or weekly but you're allowing people to call in and I'm presuming these are CM members only or maybe the public but, and you're giving them some cybersecurity advice, kind of a Q&A from the top. Tell us about that, man. What's going on? So, so the, Don Erikson came up the, you know, head of C, I came up with this idea that the concept is for the vendors that are inside the C, the vendor security, you know, vendor community there. Okay. Trying to provide opportunities for them to ask questions that are, you know, sort of in general nature about how to improve the cybersecurity, the posture and technology and stuff inside their products. Because, you know, like I said, the customers are asking for more and more safe things. And so we're trying to help, you know, see as a vendor member association and so we're trying to help that community make things better. And, and, you know, we do, we talked about, you know, bad cards and this and that but there are a lot of vendors out there trying to get better and from doing a lot of progress on it. So, so there's definitely interest in this. And so, you know, they wanted to kind of, as part of their ongoing program to try to help the vendors improve their cybersecurity position. Yeah. Yeah. And is that, so is it sort of a one-on-one? Like they're just channeled into you or is it like a, I'm sorry, I haven't gotten to listen in yet. So I didn't know is it, are people embarrassed to say, hey, I don't know about this or how do you find that conversations go? They, they, they contact us over, over the, either the CIA has a vendor community forum through that or through email. Okay. They don't actually get, they're not actually questioned live on the air or anything that, you know, take the questions and we go, we explore how to answer that. So usually we do a segment like that and then some sort of small kind of lecture thing. So like the one going to do tomorrow is going to be, you know, sort of the general subject of what do you do to worry about backdoors and, you know, somebody might put a chip in your circuit board, things like that.  So, you know, we've been riffing on the idea of we, we find some strange picture and ask how your facial recognition testing is going. Ah. So, you know, the last picture we found was a Google put up a challenge that if you take a parakeet and put it on a toy tricycle and put that in front of certain kinds of recognition systems, they think that's a truck.  Yeah, I think I, you know, I see that, I see the words AI, which I'm not, I don't even believe exist yet. I've used all the time when it's really just machine learning and just like the analytics of old, machine learning has a long way to go, you know, and it's very quick in certain instances and very error prone in others, you know. And what, so if you're getting, if you get some questions about that, what are your, what's your thoughts on what you've seen and, you know, the industry adoption, is industry knowledge you think going up or, you know, are people just still scared? What's the feeling there? So the feeling I get is that the industry is feeling more pressure from their customers to be concerned about these sort of things. And so, you know, the optimal situation is that I get the phone call from the sales guy. He just tried to visit some big dot com company in the Silicon Valley area and he got scolded because his product didn't have the appropriate encryption features in it. Basically he got told he can't do the sales call if he doesn't get his act together. And they're putting their foot down at that level and, you know, you stop the sales guy from making a sale and that gets the customer's attention. It gets the vendor's attention, excuse me. So we're getting that kind of, you know, market pressure I believe is the term they've used. Yeah, it's interesting. And people are responding. Yeah, and we've had, well it's interesting, we've had products like BriefCam for many years now that's quite an amazing tool. And I think that end users get confused that all new tools will just automatically work. You know, I think BriefCam's maybe been around a decade. So it's quite mature in its functionality today and the things that it can do. It rolled out the gate pretty well, but it's taking it time to get better and faster and all those sort of things. And I get the feeling that the customers see stuff either on YouTube or I don't know if it gets emailed to them from a vendor or they read some list of hot technology that they follow or ZDNet, whatever it may be. And then they expect their, you know, integrator to be able to deliver this stuff for them, oh we can take advantage of that right away. And so what you're feeling is that the vendors are then trying to figure out maybe from the expertise that you have, is it really viable yet or what are my options? Is that what they're coming to you for? Well, they're coming to you if they figured out they haven't secured the thing. They'll get these shiny new technology, they'll install it, it'll be easy to install in quote marks, but easy doesn't necessarily mean secure. So it's sort of they have to go through kind of an enlightenment process. First you have to get them to understand to use the new technology and then you've got to worry about, you know, sort of setting all the knobs and dials to the secure position. And that has implication. It's more work, somebody has to get more training. The job site takes more, you know, more minutes per door or whatever camera. So it has business implications doing things more secure and they're working their way through these kind of issues. So are they, do you find people getting more knowledgeable about tools? I'm wondering who, sort of, who calls you. Are you getting sales guys? Are you getting owners? Are you getting engineers?  How do we close them?  Or what kind of, do you get questions that are about? I get questions like that. Yeah. Okay. The classic example is the vendor, you know, says to me, okay, so we ran a scan on our product and we discovered we had all these ports open we didn't know about and the really bad one is that they do a scan on a live system to go and then we figured out there were all these connections to, you know, a certain name of other country here and they're going, oh, and so, you know, the sweet spot, unfortunately, is when the vendor themselves figured out that their product is compromised in the field and they really ought to fix that. So, I mean, and people seeing things like that, you know, a better place to be is that they get some feedback that the scans failed because of like big enterprises, even not so big enterprises are running these scanning services and tools on the inside and you can't hide the physical security stuff from the network team anymore. They used to do that, but, you know, that doesn't work very well anymore. I mean, if it's a network and it's got switch ports and things like that, it needs to be taken care of. It's not about what network it's plugged into. It's if it's, you know, on the property and part of the business is equipment. Yeah, there's, I still see, or I hear a lot of people talking about just, well, if I completely isolate that network, then I don't have to worry about the customer's network. And then I said, well, how do you get updates to it or does it just sit there for years running on its own without ever getting updated and you're not updating drivers or firmware or scanning it to find out what's going on with it just because it's sitting there doesn't mean someone's not compromised it or taking something that's really bad from it and walked like across that air gap to the corporate WAN with some USB drive that's got a video clip on it that you took out of the system that's, you know, supposedly isolated. It's very hard to keep the network air gapped. The data flows in and out all the time for various reasons, sometimes on purpose, sometimes unintentional. So they'll hit this kind of stuff. And that's just the classical network paths.  So we, you know, the world is more connected, more and more connected, and that makes the air gap things sort of, you know, not real anymore. Sort of moot. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. What's the most popular sort of, have you guys built a Q&A? What's the most popular sort of a request that you're seeing on that program? So we've only got a few of them, sort of the general pattern is people asking about cryptography questions. Oh, okay.  They know 27 different kinds of ammunition, but they have no idea what a TLS Cypher Suite is. Sure. And yet that's a critical thing to worry about because you have to have your encryption capabilities set properly. Okay, good. So we're trying to sort of, helping with getting the demystifying the crypto, which is, you know, a challenge for everybody. Yeah, including me. So I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll talk about a good place where we're using crypto that we didn't even have a few years ago when we come back. We'll take a break and pay some bills, and we'll be right back with Rodney Thayer in about a minute. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. If you're not in control of how you see yourself, then who is? Live above the influence. When I was growing up, I was among the one in six American kids who struggled with hunger. But with the power of breakfast, the kids in your neighborhood can think big and be more.  Hello. My name is Stephanie Mock, and I'm one of three hosts of Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Food and Farmer series. Our other hosts are Matt Johnson and Pamai Weigert. And we talk to those who are in the fields and behind the scenes of our local food system. We talk to farmers, chefs, restaurant tours, and more to learn more about what goes into sustainable agriculture here in Hawaii. We are on a Thursdays at 4 p.m., and we hope we'll see you next time. Hey, Lohan. Welcome back to the Think Tech Hawaii studios. We're with Rodney Thayer today. And we're talking now about cryptography and sort of this problem. He gets a lot of questions about this on a sort of a forum that they run, the Security Industry Association runs that Rodney consults on for our vendor partners out there who are concerned about cryptography. Let's talk about OSDP, which is another standard that was built with the Security Industry Association and others to replace the aging Wagon protocol. For my viewers out there, Wagon is the protocol we used for years to talk downstream from a card reader to the other equipment. It was very insecure. It's subject to replay attacks and all kinds of other problems. It could not be secured. So we've now built a new protocol called OSDP, which Rodney was a part of. So let's just talk a little bit. Give us the evolution of OSDP. I sort of know why, because Wagon was broken. So tell us how you got involved with getting that started. So OSDP has been around for several years. There was a thing called OSP version one, which was done about 10 years ago, maybe more by Linnell and HID and Mercury and some of the folks. I showed up relatively recently, like five, six years ago to the process and they were doing OSDP version two, which is where they were, that was where they added the encryption capabilities to it and they took it from being, it was originally a handful of vendors working together, cooperating, yay. And then they decided that they wanted to take the standard further. So they migrated over to being a CIA project. And so I have a background in software development. So I showed up at one of the meetings and I made the obvious comment in the mid 2000s, which is, so who did the open source version? And first I got silence and then they said, well, we've got budget, would you like to do that? And so, you know, never ask for something unless you're ready to handle it. So I now have the, so I'm the one who built the open source implementation and the GitHub repository and all that stuff. Awesome. Thank you for sharing. So what happened was, sure, yeah, I mean, that's the way we do things on the internet. That's right. So with Wigan, Wigan is so primitive, it's a question to call it a protocol because you put a card next to a card reader and some electrical signals come out of the wire and go to the other end. End of discussion. There's no two-way conversation. There's no concept of acknowledgments or anything. It's so old, it had two parity bits, one on the front and one on the back. So if you're not into the electricity of that sort of thing, that's about a 1970s era way of building things. And if you don't buy it properly, it will not work. It's got all kinds of problems. Yeah, so we're running electrical characteristics just barely beyond what Thomas used to do. He was an integrator, you know. We actually had door lock sensors and stuff he sold. Wow. So the OSDP runs over RS-45, which is a serial protocol similar to RS-232, which people may have heard of. And so since it's a bidirectional protocol, you can send messages back and forth. And so OSDP was built on top of that. And now we've got the classic kind of technology, where there's messages back and forth. There's acknowledgments. Messages can have a cyclic redundancy check, a CRC on them, so you can have very strong error correction and then there's a bunch of other capabilities to it. So that's sort of where it went to. It went from vegan hardware to 45 hardware, which is easily available today and very robust. And then we could build this technology on top of it. Yeah, and it seems like in a lot of cases, I find that the reader specification was an 18-gauge cable. And in many cases, you need to change the board hardware and the reader hardware to use an OSDP-compatible reader. But we are able to use the existing cabling infrastructure in many cases. So there is some cost savings there from that forklift perspective that every end user is afraid of that kind of expense, right? Right. Now, I agree with what you said about the 18-gauge cable, but people used to do crazy things with weakened cables. Yeah. So you can't assume every single cable in the wall is valid. So people really should use it. And there are tools to do this, these cable certification devices. And what they're doing is they'll measure capacitance of the wire, capacitance of the wire, and things like that. Yeah, there's a lot of T-taps. Yeah, there's those, well, they're invisible until you go looking for them T-taps all over the place that cause capacitance and inductance issues with those lines downstream. And you may not get OSDP capability overall cabling. So yeah, it should not be presumed. Yeah, you paid the kid to run that wire and there's 15 different twist-on handgun connections up in the ceiling and nobody ever saw them before. And they've been sitting there resting for the last 15 years. And now you're on a run RS-45 over that at 100,000 bits per second and you wonder why you get errors. Yeah, and the wagon would work fine on that wire, by the way, but this protocol will not. So we gain, you talk a little bit about the two way and so from our audience, this means we can actually send maybe text messages out to a card reader to let someone know that they need to do something. We can send a different type of color to the reader, for example, to indicate something. We can also finally upgrade the reader remotely, like push a firmware update out to the reader. So this is something we've never had the capability to do in our industry. How do you see that developing? I know that's fairly, you know, at the front edge of what we're doing today, but is that going to be something that we can reasonably expect our manufacturing community to support? Yeah, so what we get is that when we start to have a real communication protocol, that's what the S is for supervised. So what that means is when it's supervised as an old physical security term, it means the thing at the other end of the wire, if it died, you know it died. So in the protocol world, we call those acknowledgements. We have since the 80s, but that's a whole IT versus physical security thing. So anyway, so you know the line, you know the thing at the other end didn't die and you have acknowledged messages and you're sending control messages back and forth which command the reader to do things. So in the old days, you had to wire up an extra wire to make sure the LED lit up. With OSTP, as you said, you send a command. You want to read LED? You tell it to blink for whatever you want. But it's commands. It's all over the OSTP one pair of wires. So we can send more rich messages back and forth. We can use more fancy cards. Like in the federal environment, they're using PIV cards, for example, which have a more complicated dialogue back and forth over the wire. And yeah, we can send text messages. You can do beeping. You can do LED controls. And there can be manufacturer-specific commands. There's some reader that's made in Sweden that has a ring around the outside of the reader and we call it a mood ring. Apparently they use it on doors at conference rooms. So things start glowing when it's the end of your conference. End of your time in the conference room. That's awesome. So you can innovate things like that. And this is sort of, I mean, if you look at it from the point of view of the IoT world, this is kind of normal IoT stuff. I mean, you can do firmware updates over the air. You can send commands down to the device. But the device is, I mean, it's the same thing. You know, the device is a computer with some kind of smarts in it that's engaging this dialogue with the head-end equipment. And you get all the benefits of that kind of an arrangement. Yeah, and we get encryption. So let's talk a little bit. Give us the primer on TLS. And this is the latest version. TLS 1.2 has now been proven to work over OSDP. So there's different... So the other thing about OSDP is because it's a protocol, it's done with the OSI model. That kind of a view. So the original stuff ran over RS-45. And because the equipment was a little primitive, they used AES encryption in a fairly simple way that was similar to what the smart card industry had done.  Then as readers have become more and more complicated, more sophisticated, it's not complex. In fact, they have bigger computers in them. So we're still getting... We're still smaller than a cell phone here if you think about how much computing power there is. So once they go to network capabilities, then they can start doing TLS or transport layer security. And so you can do OSDP over 45 cable. You can do it over TLS. You can do it over TCP. That's the three cases that have been built so far. And yes, if they use TLS, they can use the latest stuff, which is TLS 1.3. And there's a published standard for 1.3. And it's done, it's in the field. Facebook uses it, FB.com uses it. So it's definitely out there. And so this is an example of you should be using the latest-gray encryption. You should be using a product that is capable of being updated. You should run the latest stuff. Now this is the broken record where I'm saying the sort of standard security advice we give people. And we can start to apply all those good rules to the physical security door lock world with OSDP. Yeah. Can you give us, because I know you're a cryptographer, can you give us the order of magnitude stronger that TLS 1.3 is versus TLS 1.2, maybe versus TLS 1.1, which is now, I guess, expired or no longer in use? Deprecated is the term. Deprecated, sorry, thank you. We really try to avoid using it if we can. So 1.3, they made the protocol more robust. They added some extra capability so you can avoid spoofing of things because it was possible. It's a complex protocol, so it was possible for there to be issues around setting up a session. So an adversary could get in the middle and do stuff. And they've been doing improvements like that. They also added some more crypto options that weren't there in the older stuff. So now we can use elliptic curve. And so when you use RSA, if you're using the RSA algorithm, you can use a more stronger format for digital signatures. I see. Because the way this works is as the state of the art advances and the state of the attack art advances, people have found issues. So the digital signature mechanism we did basically came from the late 90s that we've been using for years with TLS. They finally switched that. So it's using RSA, SSS, PSA, PSA, SSS. This is one of these things. The new buzzwords are only six months old. I can't just rattle them off. But the good thing is we're getting better. And the really important thing is that the physical security industry is able to leverage this. We're starting to adopt the sort of IT standards that we've always needed that we didn't have. Yeah. And we're realizing the physical security world is a target. And I'm talking about network targets. All the physical security people know that somebody might throw a rock through the window of your storefront. But we also have to worry about, they might try to track your door lock system or your cameras or something else about your infrastructure. Because your infrastructure's network is a target. So who do you think needs to be taken advantage of this right way? My brain always goes, critical infrastructure. Oh my gosh. They know the power companies. And is this something that the integrers need to talk about to everybody? Joe's car garage up the street. Is this something we just need to bring awareness up and get everybody up to speed? Well, so the fact is the standard means that you can have multiple implementations that work the same. And so you have options. You have more options, more diversity. I mean, last time I checked, there was probably 50 different implementations and most of them are card readers and some panels kind of stuff. So you have many different options now that you didn't have before in terms of what you can design into a system. So it gives you more choices because of being able to leverage standardization and you get the security. And so it's still applicable even if you're not doing one of those Navy facilities you hang out at. Sure. But certainly for something very high security level, it facilitates doing the more robust kind of a door lock system you want to do there. This is awesome stuff coming from the Security Industry Association. Rodney, coming from you, we really appreciate the help because the whole industry needs to come up. And I've been on that soap box for a while with a little pushing from Rodney right there on the screen. We are not seeing a lot of requests in Hawaii for that. We've done a little bit inside critical infrastructure. So there's definitely some of this more advanced access control work going on. But I sure hope that it continues to get pushed out and everybody continues to work on it. We will get Rodney back in here maybe every quarter or every few months if we can to get an update from him on what's going on. He's kind of got his finger on the pulse, especially with those queries coming in to see you. So see you members. If you've got some questions about what you're doing, definitely call into that session and get some help. The rest of Hawaii, if you need something, reach out to us. We'll try to get you into the right information. We really appreciate you tuning in today. Rodney, thank you so much for joining me. And we'll see you next week, Wednesday 1 o'clock because security matters.


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Hey speaking so what's going on? I just want to jump on really fast put together a short little video of some of the things that I use on an airplane To just make traveling a better experience So I don't know about you guys But when people ask hey, what do you do for a living and then I say I'm a professional speaker And then it's sometimes followed up with the response of oh, don't you hate being on an airplane or all the travel Isn't the travel just miserable? Yeah, it's not always a flawless, right? It's not always a blissful experience That's the whole purpose of this video is to show you a few of the things that I do to create my own In-flight spa experience. So let's jump into it. Alright, first thing Sound for me is super important. I have tried the big headphones I've tried Sony I've tried Bose and these little bad boys are the winners for me. These are the QC 20 Bose noise-canceling in-ear headphones These bad boys compared to the over ears for me. I get better clarity.  It's worth that. This is Get a pair. It's like $249 on Amazon Get a pair Okay, up next is the travel rest memory foam Little neck brace. This thing is a lifesaver. I've tried seven different kinds of neck braces This is the one that I love This is got the the the back that literally is like cut off So you're not like leaned or pushed forward and it comes up enough to just ooh Just nuzzle your your little neck right in it's so comfy and you just put this little strap in It's a game-changer people. I think it's like 39 95 Just love yourself and get one. Okay up next. This is the extreme comfort Orthopedic seat cushion. I cannot take credit for this one. This credit is from my great friend Vin Jane You guys know who he is. He's a legend. He threw this up on speaking spill a while ago I got one and it has changed my life The nice thing is it's got the little cut out here. So your tailbone doesn't get compressed It comes with this like super cool carrying case I just clip this on the back of my backpack and if you're on a flight that's longer than like two hours You have to this will change everything for you again. Love yourself. Get a seat cushion price price on this is like 3497 if you have like a business Amazon account if you don't I think it's like 49 99 it'll be the best $50 you've ever spent. I love it get one Also Lysol wipes. Okay, they're super light.  We've got gigs. We've got things to do get yourself some Lysol wipes I think they're like $12 and 16 cents on Amazon You get a six pack of them. These are max earplugs in my opinion. They're the comfiest They do the best at noise canceling and noise isolation. I just carry in a little medicine cap I put in the max and they do a great job. They're super cheap, too I think they're like $8.49 cents on Amazon.  Look at this. It's just it's blissful to wear But I'm telling you with the 3d contouring right here. You like you don't get the compression on your eyes I wear contacts hard contacts Price on this $19 and 69 cents It is worth it. All right, we've all had those times where we're sitting on an airplane or we're stuck We need power iPhones dying External battery packs awesome super important. This is the anchor external battery pack. It is the lightest Lightweight small again comes with a cool travel case. This will give you three phone charges For your iPhone. I Love it. It's super cheap the price on this 24 49 the anchor External battery pack get it. All right, let's see what else we have here. Oh Couple classic literature books Always reading on an airplane Shout out to Laura and Jay Okay, last thing is this little travel blanket I usually don't use this a ton but when I am on international flights. I love to pamper myself So you use this it is all-in-one.  It's the Napa travel blanket the price on this 24 96 on Amazon It's a great deal And then just lastly I wore what I'm wearing right now is what I travel in Some people might think I look like a homeless person Or I just came from the gym, but comfort for me is Everything and so I this is I wear Nike. This is like their new yoga line. I love it. It's super light comfortable Same thing on my like pants. They're just like the workout pants even my shoes I wear under armor shoes. These are Slip-on slip-off lightweight and for me like traveling. It's not a like It's not a fashion show. Okay.  I really do But I don't care. I don't care. I'm so comfortable And I saw wipes Just happen from the pillow. This is how I live my best life comfort


especially in these sensitive situations. It's something that we've been exploring trying to develop models here at USIP, learning from the other programs, especially the rule of law program here at USIP. But you're right, so I think my understanding from when, and talking to our partners is that it's just literally just the conversations, the outreach to community, to police law enforcement officials within the communities where these young boys are being reintegrated to. So it's like ongoing conversations, ongoing sensitization, but I don't think it's anything systematic and that's actually, it makes me think now that when we go back to our partner to kind of help develop other types of models, like this critical thinking program to get their insights on how you develop, who sensitize law enforcement to deal with, not only these are young boys, but these are young boys who have gone through radicalization, who have a lot of trauma, abuse, lack of education, lack of social skills and how do you work with them, especially if conflicts not just within the community, but between that young boy and their family. And in this case, all the young boys that had gone through the Sabahun program, the parents were aware. The parents did give approval for these children so it wasn't that the military rounded them up and put them in the center. The parents were, they gave their permission for these children to go through just these three radicalization program, which I think is not a lot of, when you talk about the other situations you've been talking about, that is just arbitrary rounding these kids up and putting them in. The families aren't involved, but these families do want their children to be reintegrated into communities. They want their kids back at the end of the day. Kerry, I think there was a question in the back. Yeah. I wondered the situation we heard currently is sort of the recent situation in Libya. I wondered how things were under the prior regime, under the colonel for many years. They claim they had a fight ISIS. Now we're present there trying to fight ISIS and we've just packed up and called it a day due to the threat of a civil war that's unveiling. And I wondered how did they handle things with respect to probation, children issues, et cetera, et cetera. Was it a sort of a ruthless regime or was it more advanced than you would think? And I also wondered that the other situation would be the maltreatment of migrants and some have been reduced to more or less slavery. I can't believe how important all this is to human rights, but I wondered how things were under the old regime and now what are we faced with as far as what the future would be as well? I was very lucky actually when I was carrying out the very first full-scale assessment that we tried to do of detention in Libya to be going around with a colleague of mine who's former UNODC who had in fact done quite a few of the prison visits under the former regime. So we had that experience and indeed talked to a number of other people who'd been in. I think as I said on paper and certainly post-2005 where they underwent, led by Girafi Sanseh Fallislam, some level of opening up to the West, some level of reform, particularly from a criminal justice and a security and justice perspective. They crafted a new law, law number five, which at least in some regards, it's not perfect, but has some positives and certainly has a model for open prisons in it, has a probation system, has the involvement of social workers. What I would give as an example is that even old-order prison directors that we interviewed immediately post-revolution, we said, oh, can you tell me a little bit about law number five? There's some interesting provisions in it. And they said, I pointed up at dusty shelves and said, law number five was a law for the shelf. We were never expected to implement it. Law number five was the thing that we used to posture to the international community to make it look like we were moving forward. And there are a number, to give them credit, there are a number of senior judicial police officers who are the prison guards in Libya who were the beneficiaries of training from the British, from a number of others, in human rights-based approaches to detention, many of whom are very enlightened, some of whom talk a good talk, but in reality, if you're put in a situation where we're not so positive. So there were some things that were functioning better, but a big but here in terms of what you talk about, the crisis of extremism, growth of some extremist groups and the vulnerability for the growth of ISIS within the Libyan context, I would say that the other parallel system of detention where the really nasty stuff happened under the regime, which was much more closely held certain prisons which were not under the authority of the judicial police, which were under internal security, where then terrorist suspects, individuals who had gone and fought in Afghanistan, in other places, came back and were detained by the regime are also the detention of many Muslim brotherhood people in those facilities, Abu Sleem being the most obvious, allowed a breeding ground of networking within those different groups and the increased radicalization of those individuals as they networked. And so I think, and there's some very good writing on this, Mary Fitzgerald and a number of others have written, the networking that happened between what's known as the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, LIFG and the Muslim Brotherhood during that period of time and the type of groups that we see operating in Libya, many of those relationships happened because of Gaddafi's detention policies and particularly his tendency to lock up, quote unquote, extremists. Unfortunately, in the east of the country now under Hefter and of course, as we know actively right now, Hefter is now potentially taking Tripoli, Hefter has very much pursued a similar thing which terrifies me for when we get to the down the line, when we get to see the repercussions, five, 10, 20 years down the line of the individuals that he has locked up. Within Northern Ireland, which I've also done some work in and my family is from, the provisional IRA was formed essentially behind bars due to a decision to detain extremist elements, many of whom were not involved until they were held behind bars. So yeah, I'm in on the one hand, there's a desire to see it as a better time, but I'm not so sure. I mean, just, I can certainly say on the juvenile front, I mean, the irony for us is 10 years ago, our Middle East regional office did a studies. We try not to do comparative who is the better who isn't, but at least looking at different aspects, law and practice. Number one was Libya, that we would recommend other actors in the region to look to. Number two was Syria. So for us, it's been an incredibly tragic 10 year period in the two of the systems that we really thought were making very promising advances and taking on a lot of promising practices. That work has essentially been lost and as you know, we're back to a very early stage of getting those systems going again. I'll talk about migrants with you after because it's a whole other bag of tricks. I don't know if anyone else has any other questions. If not, I guess we've granted ourselves a 15 minute breathing space before the next session. So thank you again to all of our panelists. Thank you. Okay, sorry to interrupt. There was a bag left downstairs in the corridor for lunch and somehow that bag, the bag made its way to the next door room, the holding room and now it has since disappeared.  So thank you. Excuse me. We're the institutes. That's Mrs. Marguerite here. I'm all about you. So I might have, it's actually funny because I didn't mean to lie to myself in the scary part, you see the great day about all the patients. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even get into it, but the saddest part is that most people was women in prison. Yeah, I lost a lot of experience. I was firing for a few minutes. I just wanted to say nice to meet you. Great to hear about your award. Hope to run into you again. Yeah. Oh, God. Yes, sir. Oh, God. Yes, you're doing good. We have several grants together, right? Yeah. Oh, thank you. I told him to give me the invite. Now, be great. Be great. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's nice to be here. Thank you. All right. Thank you. How are you doing? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? How are you? How are you? Oh, really? Yeah. How are you? How are you? Hi. Where are you? Oh, no. I was just going to get a call. Okay. How are you? How are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm okay. How are you? I'm okay, my pleasure. Thank you. Are you? I'm okay. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Me too. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, and I could see it right there. Yes, and you can see theoretically. Okay, theoretically. Yeah, well, you know, I know. I can read that it comes down right here. Oh, okay, come on. That was so good to see you. You have close. Yeah, I'm past your cross. That's the way I wanted to stop you. Yeah. It's always helpful. Thank you. Did you come back tonight? Yeah, I'm leaving right now, actually. Thank you. Just, I don't, I don't. We need like a podium. Oh, you need that. Hello. I'm good. We're good to go. We have a full house. Yeah. Yeah. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Greg Gizvold. I'm a senior fellow with the rule of law collaborative. And I have the dubious distinction of standing between you and leaving. So you're my hostages for the next 90 minutes or so. And we have a, we save the best for last. We have an illustrious panel here that's going to help us unpack one of the, or an aspect of the, of the problems we've been talking about extensively today. As we run through these sort of challenges to the criminal justice system, it can seem like just a wall of issues. Capacity issues, societal issues, population issues. And we don't know really where to grab and what thread to pull on. And Fiona was beginning to grasp at some of this with conflict affected states. And the gentleman from CCI was talking about how we approach these issues in various U.S. jurisdictions. But the challenge for us as folks who program in this area is how do we start dividing all of this up? How do we arrange it into buckets? And a leading international rule of law scholar has begun to push forward a notion of systems, services and society as a way to begin to parse it all out. But even then we are faced with the challenge, the tension between the political reality that the criminal justice system is very often used to remove a population or a set of population to address a social problem to provide a semblance of strength. And that exists in tension with the reality that the criminal justice system is going to surface and magnify and clarify the problems underneath all of this. The poverty, the ethnic tension, the exclusion, and that list goes on. So the challenge we have in part is recognizing that for justice to be effective it has to be people-centered. And yet it is focused at a level of abstraction much higher and much more diffuse. It's focused on populations or on priorities, but it deals with individuals. It deals with people. And we are constantly trying to figure out how we deal with an individual who has multiple identities at the same time. They are an offender usually. They are a victim. They may be addiction-afflicted, conflict-afflicted, afflicted by a wide variety of things, domestic violence, sexual abuse, gang abuse. All of these things exist at the same time. They are victim, they are witness, they are perpetrator, and we don't have a language yet to unpack that, but we're working on it. And so our panelists today are going to talk about the intersection between the criminal justice system and the societal problems and how we deal with them, the approaches, the frameworks, the tools, and give a few examples that have been tried in their various locations. We have chosen a domestic example, an international example, and an international practitioner to comprise your last panel. So I'm hoping you will have reserved all the questions you were either unaware of you wanted to ask or were afraid to ask from earlier and save them up because this is the group that can answer them. The structure of this is going to be fairly straightforward. We're going to take about 10 minutes each and run through a quick presentation on frameworks and issues and how we approach them. And I'm then going to circle back and ask if we have time, just to give you three or four things that as you go out and approach this type of challenge from your perspective, implementer, DOJ prosecutor, programmer, INL field rep, whatever, you can take away with and say, all right, that's news I can use as it were. And so with that, I'm going to turn it over and we're going to start with Aaron Park from Washington, D.C. Welcome and thank you for staying. So before I get into my actual presentation, I wanted to provide some context to the District of Columbia's system in general because when other panelists were speaking about the systems and challenges and barriers, I was able to identify with most of those even though my agency is a federal agency with a local mission that supervises adult offenders who have been convicted of D.C. code violations. So wrap your head around that. So we're supervising D.C. code offenders, but we're a federal agency. So that's where it starts. The second part about the system that I work in is that the District of Columbia does not have a prison. So all of our offenders who receive long-term prison sentences serve their time in a federal institution. So they become custody of U.S. Federal Bureau of Prison. So that's a unique feature. We have a D.C. jail that's run by the local government. So our free trial detainees in some instances are placed in D.C. jail, which is run by local government. Lastly, our offenders who are returning to the District from BOP, if they have six months left in their sentence, they are transferred to either Halfway House or D.C. jail. So run by local government to finish out their last six months of the sentence in D.C. under BOP's custody. So do we get that? So it gets really complicated and convoluted. So my agency, we help with those re-entrance coming back to the city from BOP, prepare them to re-enter the community and help transition them during those six months. But our work begins way before that. We have different programs to help connect our offenders, who might be in Nebraska, Wisconsin, West Virginia, all over the country to really try to get them back into the community. So we actually have programs that deal with that. And that because we don't have a prison system, and D.C. had a prison a while ago, about 20, 25 years ago, and it was not even located in the District. It was located in Northern Virginia. So there was never a prison in the District of Columbia. So that's the background on why we have the system we have. So the ATI was not a want. It was a necessity for the District of Columbia. We couldn't afford to send all of our prisoners to all of the country to serve their sentence. And we didn't have a big enough facility, jail facility to really put our pretrial defendants into institution to put them under some form of custody. So fortunately for the District of Columbia, we have pretrial system that's incredibly strong and does fantastic work as part of preadjudication process. We do not have bail bond system. Most of, majority of our defendants are released under pretrial supervision and in the community awaiting their adjudication. So that agency is actually our sister agency, CISOSA's sister agency, and we're funded through the same budget process through Congress. So we have pretrial ATI process that's very robust and the portion I work for is the post-adjudication system and we don't call ourselves probation officers. We don't call ourselves parole officers. Our officers are called community supervision officers because we are in the community. We're working with our community partners to provide supervision services to the offenders, post-adjudicated offenders. So that's the broader framework for our system. So for us, the challenge has always been mitigating risk versus containing risk. As a community supervision agency, we're really focused on maintaining our offenders in the community. What are the things we need to do to mitigate their risk so we could really effectuate behavior changes so they could maintain their tenure in the community and not go back into or go to prison for these crimes they have committed? So it's been a really challenging for us to really balance that because the options are very limited and we have developed a really comprehensive system of responses to their risk and also the behaviors. So one of the things that we really truly believe in is that all of our offenders are individuals with individual difficulties, different profiles of risk and needs, and that our job is to figure those things out and get the help we need from our offenders to figure all the details out. So we don't just see our offenders as somebody we do something to, but we see them as partners in their journey towards change process. So we're really talking about how do we apply supervision, monitoring, and intervention strategies to really get at what they need and promote behavior changes. So going forward, I want to make sure I touch on all the key points.  So our service provision is really based on these eight principles and we work really hard to adhere to and implement practices and programs that are consistent and aligned with those eight principles. So when we look at that, we do have a tool that we use to assess actuarial risk and that's where we start to differentiate the offenders who are sitting in front of us. That's the first step in the process. What kind of risk do they pose to the community, to themselves, others, and etc. And then from there, we really look at what motivates people to change their behaviors and the motivation differs by individuals. What's motivating me to do something is totally different than anyone else in this room. So we need to be able to identify those factors that help people to really want to change. And based on really truly understanding the risk they pose and the different types of needs they come to us with, we have to target interventions to really fit the needs and the risk of that individual. And all the evidence-based practices and literature tells us that we allocate the most resources to the highest-risk persons with the needs. And we really try to align our resources to address that. In addition to aligning the resources, we also want to target those charismatic needs factors that have the most impact on the behavior change. And so that means we have to have interventions that are targeting their criminogenic cognitions, behaviors, attitudes, and associations. So the programming that we developed and we are continuing to develop and because it's a work in progress is to really focus on those, because that's our specialty. We are not in the business of necessarily really taking over the mental health concerns or substance abuse problems of our offenders. We could provide some resources towards that, but our core mission is to really target those driving factors behind their criminal behaviors as a supervision agency. So one of the things that really helps us to get at the individual needs is responsibility. Not all people are going to respond the same way towards whatever interventions we provide. We talked about educational needs. Some of our offenders have really low achievements. So they can read, they can write, and there's a lot of deficits that requires different type of interaction. So looking at all the, you know, risk is what we tend to focus on. Needs is the second thing we talk about, but we don't necessarily talk about the responsibility of the system to work with these different individuals who are in front of us and challenges they have internally. So we want to make sure that we get at all those things which we're really truly talking about evidence-based practices. And I think other panelists talked about this. Having really skilled staff and the system that is capable of working with this complex and challenging issues that our offenders bring with them. So having a system, a training and technical assistance process that really help our staff to be successful. One of the things that we have instituted as a system is the communities of practice. So we're going to do evidence-based practices. We have to provide our employees with the forums to really practice their skills, continue to reinforce good skills, and then really motivate them to continue to learn new skills, continue to go out there and research what's out there doing some different things and think through what they're doing every day in a different way and applying those skills and having a structure process to get feedback. So I don't want to go into extensive detail with everything, but also talking about punishment versus incentives and what we really try to ingrain with our staff is reward and incentivize any behavior that's incremental move towards pro-social behaviors. So not looking at everything from black and white binary decisions, but seeing things through continuum. Behavior change takes a long time and any movement forward is a good movement and incentivizing those incremental changes is an incredibly powerful tool to have as we move through the system. So those are individual staff level and offender level kind of evidence-based practices that need to be ingrained in your system, but also as a system is incredibly important for us to be part of a community. DC is incredibly fractured, complex system that if we are not engaging with our partners, stakeholders, and the community and really develop a system, have a system that supports our offenders every integration into the community. No matter how good a job we do, our offenders are not going to be successful and we encounter that every single day. So one of the biggest challenges that our agency is facing right now has nothing to do with anything other than securing buildings. We have no place to go. As a community supervision agency, we have decided as an organization that we are going to go into the communities where our offenders reside, go into their natural community to provide the services they need. The problem is those communities really don't want community supervision agency in their neighborhood. They don't want a concentration of what the community calls criminals coming in to receive services. So it's been an incredible challenge for us because our lease started running out and if you are not familiar with the district, the district is being gentrified in a manner that we've never seen before. So many of the communities we can't afford to go in because the rents are really high and other places we can't go in because there's too much pushback, not just from the community but also the building owners. So that may not be a unique challenge for many of us with a lot of these communities gentrifying and being revitalized. I mean, it's the social cost of economic boom that we are facing right now. So engagement with the community is incredibly important and they need to see a value in what you do and how you do things. And then the other thing is what we've been talking about, two things, measuring what you do, how you do fidelity adherence to the models and etc. And giving, as a system, developing a process to measure what you do and how you do things and be able to demonstrate the value that you bring to the table and what kind of impact you have as an organization and the impact you make with helping to change people's lives and the behaviors and etc. So as I said before, we really want to focus on the big four, attitude, behavior, peer association, etc. However, we cannot forget the last four. So in terms of those areas, we really have built a continuum of service treatment for substance abuse programs. So we have, fortunately, our agency has a significant amount of funding to provide substance abuse treatment for our offenders, especially the high-risk offenders. So we have a whole continuum from residential all the way to outpatient and if we're looking at every level of substance abuse services, we have early intervention also. So we've front-end all the way to the back-end. And for those offenders who are low-risk and moderate needs with substance abuse, we partner with our local government agencies to provide two secure services for them. Mental health is a completely different animal, though. We have, just like Pam talked about this morning, a very high percentage of offenders who are coming into the system with a persistent mental illness and that a lot of them do have active symptoms and their mental health conditions are the drivers for their criminal behaviors. There isn't a robust system of care that we could really use to create a continuum from the most chronically severely mental ill to people who may need maintenance kind of services. So that's a challenge for us and we've been working very closely with the city government and have secured some funding to provide some level of services for our offenders, but that's been a barrier for us for a long time. We are implementing some restorative justice initiatives that have allocated some positions to build that up because one of the things that we are seeing and it has to do with what's going on in the city and if you watch the news, you're going to see a lot of stories around gun violence. Illegal weapons coming into the district, these young adults who are aged between 18 to 24 randomly shooting at each other with these semi-automatic weapons and the number of shootings that are happening has increased tremendously. Homicide rates have been going up significantly for the city. So our programming is shifting to respond to that need so we are looking at some empathy building with our offenders, aggression and violence reduction programs and etc. We have had mentors in the community to work with our offenders to really connect them to the community. So our programming is ever-evolving programming to really reflect the needs of our offenders and the risk they pose to the community. So that's what we've been working on. So when I talked to Greg about how we decide on what we do with our offenders given all this evidence and research, we have made a conscious decision as an organization to really look at stabilization needs of our offenders. Housing, the basic thing is not just housing but clothing and food. If you're hungry and you have nothing to wear and no place to go, you coming in to see one of our officers is like zero. It's not going to happen. So when we see that those needs exist with our offenders, we try to get those needs met. We have a system to secure identification for them because a lot of our offenders don't have identifications. So they can't go and get services. They can't get services without an ID. So we have those kind of things that we think is really small but that has a really large impact. We have set up a system to really be able to secure those things for them. So for us, it's a stabilization student need. We address those and then target those primary drivers of the criminal behaviors. And then we really work on engaging offenders into the community programs to support their sustained recovery and educational needs given the profile of our offenders with their educational and vocational needs and achieve shortcomings. So let me see. That's where I am with that and that I'm completely forgot about my slides. So I know that the resources NIJ, resources was mentioned. And I love NIC because they have a library. So if you click on one of those links and then there's like covers of all, and everything you ever wanted to know about evidence-based practices and how to implement them all on the same page. So, and I see our library is one of the resources and there are a couple of other ones. So, and there's actually inventory of all the evidence-based programs. So I have that on there for you. Thanks, Erin. Next, we're going to turn to Dr. Mariano Montenegro who's going to talk to us about Chile. Okay. Thank you very much, Grego. I don't know if... You should be able to just go. Yeah, there you are. Yeah, yeah. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for invitation. I appreciate very much to be here in this fantastic meeting. I'm learning a lot. So I want to show... My presentation is about two words, maybe context first and second is content. No, like you said. Because it's extremely important to take both words. So we have in Latin America, I want to show you the context first. And we have a report in 2013-2014 in regional human development report, you know, is the citizen security with human dimension, diagnosis and proposal for Latin America. And we have an extremely interesting paradox. This is our paradox in Latin America. Behind crime and violence, understanding Latin American paradox, why in spite of advance of regional growth and development indicators over last decade has objective and perceived insecurity increased. This is our big paradox. So, the reason this report offer four big reasons. Full set of variable allow us to explain the vulnerability of Latin America to crime and violence. Number one, the economic structure has conditioned economic growth without quality and focused in consumption with insufficient social mobility even generating aspirational crime. Second, changes in the social institutions such as increased and single parent family, high school dropout rates and accelerated urban growth. Third, our subject facilitators, weapon, alcohol and drugs. Four, a lack of institutional capacity of Latin American states, especially in the justice sector. So, sorry. So, the situation Latin America and the Caribbean means we have Latin America and the Caribbean have a high crime rates. This is one reality and high rates of drug use, another reality, compared to other regions. Citizens consider public safety and drugs as priority issues in every single country in all Latin America and the Caribbean. Third, governments must respond to these concerns and be effective. These two phenomena cause great suffering and among other things also destabilized democracy. In the region, there are few alternative to incarceration. This is our reality. Few alternative to incarceration, prison is usually the destination of those convicted. This is the rule. So, when we want to talk about that, we need to know this context. Because we want to change the context. My country, now I want to talk about one country. First, Latin America, in general. Now, one country, a long spaghetti in the south of South America is very long. It's 5,000 kilometers. So, some relevant data in Chile because I want to show an example with hope. With hope, I want to convince you it's possible in this kind of country also. We have a population with 17.5 million. 7.5 million live in the capital, Santiago. So, it's very centralized. This is a big problem. 16 regions, not the state, it's not federal. 16 regions and 350 municipalities, counties. And we have 23,000 per capita middle income country. This is our reality. In this context, we... Sorry, we are using the model. We decided to use these models. No risk, needs, and responsibility model, R&R. This is being applied in Chile among problematic drug users in conflict with the criminal justice system. In Chile, drug consumption is not criminalized first. Okay, the use is not criminalized. The model applied to criminal offenders with problematic drug use and other crimes, but not the use of drug is not a crime. It is applied at different moments of the criminal process. We have 90,000 people sentenced. 45 in prison, non-jail prison, and 45 in alternative to incarceration. Half and half. Okay, probation, parole, et cetera. We know how many prisoners we have. We know how many staff we have. Please, yeah, we know. Chile has a system of alternative to incarceration, and now these alternatives are being given content, especially if there is a problematic consumption. Now we are putting the content. Alternative to incarceration without programs that guarantee rehabilitation and reduce the risk of recidivism are not acceptable in the public opinion. In that case, jail is preferred. So we have to compete with this. We need to guarantee. This is very important for the policymakers and it's very important for the general population. So we have a public policy. In our public policy, we have treatment and rehabilitation programs for population with problematic use drug in conflict with the criminal justice system. We decided to have public policy. We don't have universal covering, but we started. We decided, and why we decided principally because it's much more effective for reducing recidivism. This was the first reason that the policymakers accepted this development. Not economical, because you have to know in our regions the prison are very cheap, extremely cheap. So the treatment and rehabilitation is much more expensive than the prison. So it's not a good reason for us. So it's important to know because in different contexts you have to have different speech, different reason for convince the policymakers. So we have drug treatment court, of course, almost in all the country, in 30 courts, in 11 regions of 16, so 14 age and adult offenders. Ordinary crimes are combined by drug consumption in Chile is not a crime to consume drug. Okay? Second program is drug treatment and rehabilitation in probation. Third drug treatment and rehabilitation in parole. Now we have a law approved, but not yet implemented. This year we are going to start with this, with parole. Four treatment and rehabilitation of drug for teenagers of offenders, in prison and in alternative to incarceration. We have a law for teenagers. Okay? And five, we have program, drug treatment and rehabilitation in prison. Okay? In all the country, but not with universal covering, but in a very big, a lot of regions. Okay? So the model is RERNR. I'm not going to stop here, but we have this model. The model is comprehensive diagnosis and intervention plan and the comprehensive diagnosis. All these access, we evaluate in each person with a use of drug and in conflict with the criminal justice system. Okay? Everything. And the intervention plan is repair responsibility, development of competence and social integration all the time for access. So we have recovery, we have exclusion and we have social integration. For us it's extremely important to talk about that because I think this is the principal subject for this panel. So recovery, we have this definition, it's very clear the definition in SAMHSA, we share the same definition, but the important thing is to talk about exclusion. Because exclusion is a subject that we need to be very clear. A person is socially excluded if he or she is prevented from participating fully in economic, social and civic life and or if his or her income and other resources, personal, family and cultural are so small that they prevent him or her from enjoying a standard of living considered acceptable by the society in which he or she lives. Combination forms by the lack of economic resource, social isolation and limited access to social and citizen rights. Exclusion is abroad is covered economic, political, legal and social relation dimensions. It's an impediment to full participation that which is considered acceptable by society in which they live. So we have two perspectives for if we want to see this phenomenon. One perspective is deficient people. Another perspective is people with capacity. And this is very important because the first perspective is everything is your responsibility. It's a personal responsibility. And the second is a illness but it's my responsibility so my recovery is important if I am in charge. The second, the people with capacity is sharing responsibility. So I have responsibility by the society also. So if we define the society has a role we can build another solution. So when we are talking about social integration we are talking about reintegration, insertion, inclusion. So the definition of that for us is a process of mutual changes both by the person and the society. The contribution of those affected and of a community to achieve an equalization of opportunity which allows equality and full participation of people with problematic substance use in life and social development. All the program, all the policies, the public policy that I showed is considered the case management on the time in treatment and in social integration if not it's not possible to have good result. So the challenge is multi-sectoral like you said, it's multi-sectoral multi-agency. It requires a case management method that facilitate integration with different sectors. Case management professional must have knowledge and skill in social vulnerability, problematic drug use, criminology, mental health and disorder, management with different sectors, good social skill, knowledges of gender and sexual diversity, management of permanent motivational techniques. It's very demanding for being a professional who is in charge in case management, but if not it's not only a person who is close it's a person with skill and knowledges. Sorry. So in summary, finally talking about social integration because it's important to talk about that, we are talking about a bilateral process affected person, society of mutual accommodation. Two, participation of all social space and three, equalization of opportunity, rights and responsibility. So, I wanted to tell you is I have a hope with this population. We convince the policymakers because I worked in this subject 20 years ago I started in 2000 you know, in prison we started with a model in 2000 with teenager, no, with drug court we started in 2004 in teenagers, offenders, we started in 2007 in probation in 2015 and now we are going to start in parole. So, we convince them with good reason, principally concentrated in victims. We want to have less victims. We want to have less crime. That's why we have to be effective. This is the speech in Latin America because if we have another speech about criminal rights is completely acceptable for me, for the academic but in the social society is unacceptable politically. So, we need to convince so we convince them with this way. Thank you. Excellent. So now we are going to journey back from the Spaghetti Nation of Chile to the North Star of Integrated Programming that is the State Department. Richard? What's so funny out there, George? It's getting late in the day. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'm going to bounce back and forth from corrections to alternative to incarceration but I'm a corrections advisor for INL and I get involved with international correctional partners who are involved in initiating prison reform and capacity building efforts. The majority, like many of the speakers have discussed, the majority of organizations I'm involved in are severely under resourced and are trying to implement some basic systems of control to improve their system. So, when we work with these organizations we try to implement low cost sustainable best practices that fit their country context that best could improve their operational capacities. So, some of the areas that we focus on obviously one of the top areas we focus on is training because my personal belief is that training is the key to the professionalization of any criminal justice organization. So, we really try to focus on training and developing training programs for the organizations, line staff, because many of the countries don't provide training to their corrections or probation staff. And if they do it is generally more police training or military training. So, we really promote discipline specific training and corrections or probation for their staff. Also, first line leadership training for staff. Supervisors, we take for granted but first line leadership is critically important as those are the staff on the ground that are supervising the line staff and are going to implement internal controls to make sure things are going right in the correctional organization and the probation organization. And also executive leadership to train executive leaders in corrections and probation on certain executive leadership components, especially as it relates to implementing cultural change within the organization because as George had indicated a lot of these reform efforts are going to require a huge cultural shift for their line staff. So, how do you implement that cultural change in an organization? And again, even at the higher levels of some of these organizations they come in, they're not corrections folks like myself who's been raised in corrections for 25 years. They're the police commander that they appoint to be the corrections leader. So, we really try to focus on all levels of training. We also focus on classification which is key to the institution and key to probation organization. And again in some of these countries classification is not always as we see it in the United States. Sometimes you feel success if you're able to separate adult from juveniles females from males. You can consider that a success in some countries. And prison systems in some of these countries unlike the United States where we have medium security facilities, minimum security facilities and prisoners are designated to those security levels in a lot of the countries all security levels are placed in one facility and you have to work with them to best separate that population so you are best managing the individuals and not contaminating when I say contaminating mixing minimum security prisoners with high risk prisoners. Prison programming, we focus on prison programming as much as we can not only on the traditional drug treatment, mental health, education, vocational training, prison industries but also basic recreation programming any activities that reduces inmate idleness because you know that's very bad and prevalent in some of these institutions is inmate idleness. Also if you can implement program you generally one of the benefits of that is that you increase staff and prisoner communication and relationships and that's always a positive thing and in some of these countries there's a great deal of mistrust between prisoners and their government and again by implementing programming, increasing staff relations and the main treatment of prisoners you can decrease some of that level of mistrust and then some of the other areas that we focus on from corrections is emergency response prison intelligence and facility maintenance a lot of these facilities are very poorly maintained and we like to train their staff on how to best maintain the facility to increase the conditions of confinement of four prisoners but we do a lot of this training I just wanted to mention that we have a very special partnership with Colorado in which we have a full-time residential corrections training academy there where we train about 1500 international corrections officials of countries on an annual basis and they are very good partner and we use that quite a bit and I know the first speaker had mentioned that corrections is not designed to be a treatment facility and that is true but I do want you to know there are a lot of good state organizations correctional organizations out there that are doing a lot in the way of innovative reentry programs and things to better prisoners both in the opioid and drug treatment and reintegration and trying to move inmates from long-term restrictive housing down to the security levels and Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania are all very good partners that we utilize in our efforts I just want to switch on a couple points of alternatives to incarceration I know that P-Dash Walsh and his keynote speaker had brought up Armenia as a country that we're engaged with an alternative to incarceration that was a successful engagement we were able to work with them and they established their first ever risk needs assessment tool in that country they developed a probation specific training curriculum to train their staff and they also developed a directory of social and community resources for the different provinces in Armenia that their probation officers could use to refer their clients to so it was a very successful engagement and I think it was successful based upon three things that I think are important in any engagement one you need to work closely with line staff to make sure that what you operationally want to implement is feasible and meets the country's context two you need to interface very closely and get buy-in from the executive activity throughout the organization and three you need to have good touch point with higher level decision makers who are going to a lot resources and support to that particular entity and we were able to do all three in Armenia which led to some very good and continuing success in Afghanistan which I had worked for four years as a correctional advisor for in Afghanistan we my colleagues from the Afghanistan office have been working closely with the government there to implement alternatives to incarceration for adults and last last month we had our first individual sentenced to community service on the adult side in Afghanistan I know there's a few other individuals in the pipeline for alternatives to incarceration sentencing and that was a big thing for us and one thing I learned in that engagement we need to have judicial trust in alternatives to incarceration and when we first worked with them the judiciary did not have faith in the processes did not have faith in the organization to carry out their key mission and would not use it and in some of these countries decision makers who make decisions judiciary to place people on alternatives to incarceration or wardens who refer prisoners for early release if those offenders and individuals go out in the community and commit some heinous acts sometimes the judges and the prison warden could be held responsible for that in some of these countries so you have to have a good deal of trust between the judiciary and the entity and how you do that is making sure you utilize your first line supervisors and your executives in those organizations to have good internal quality controls to make sure that the basic vital functions are being performed just a couple more things that I have learned and I just wanted to share two or three more points organizational structure going into any country it's important that you know the organizational structure of the entities and the country is it centralized organization is it decentralized organization if the entity is centralized what is the authority and control throughout the country here let's say the federal bureau of prisons if they want to implement a policy may first you know on may first that that policy is going to be implemented as written from federal prisons from Pennsylvania to California not so in some of these countries where the reach of the organization is not that strong in addition what goes on in the capital say of Kabul Afghanistan is not what goes on in the provinces or what's operationally feasible in the provinces in Pakistan the probation office may conduct one on one checks with probationers once a month at their home or their place of work in the outer provinces good supervision may be a phone call to the tribal leader to the religious leader to the family member to check on the well-being of the offender so be cognizant of that and just two more points close coordination I learned in Afghanistan at the height of our engagement where we had 15 to 20 organizations trying to assist the Afghan civilian prison system working at cross paths of each other it wasn't until we really got together developed a formalized work groups and action plans that we were able to synergize our efforts and produce better it's really good to know who the partners are out there and coordinate closely with them because generally if you're in a particular area there's other partners that are working in that space and donor fatigue I just wanted to mention that that if you're in a long-term project with one particular agency for an extended period of time people sometimes get fatigue and get frustrated because things do move slowly and they move slowly because a lot of things we try to initiate require legislative changes there are lots of changes at government levels on a frequent basis and you're going to get new people in power positions that have different priorities different attitudes different personalities and sometimes that could lead to frustration and recently somebody had likened these type of engagements as not a point A straight line to point B engagement but it's like a as they said riding a sailboat on the San Francisco Bay where you're making progress going this way sometimes you go right sometimes you go left sometimes you go back just keep your eye on your ultimate goal and what you're trying to accomplish there so I'll end my comments there and open it up for questions Excellent so we've gone from DC through Chile to Afghanistan and San Francisco Bay to get three diverse perspectives on what people centered justice looks like in alternatives to incarceration so now we turn the microphone on those of you we have about 15 minutes left those of you still here for questions I'm not above calling on people alright I'm going to start then so question for Aaron first when you talked about the offender agency partnering with your offenders your released offenders to solve the problem in part that sounded like the problem is them as a complex individual in a situation with challenges whether competency challenges or locality challenges if you could drill us down a little bit and sort of help us understand where much of that energy gets concentrated um when I said that we see them as our partners it wasn't because they are the holder of the problems it's because they are the holders of solutions so I think a lot of us have been trained to see people as problems and that it's like a shifting of your paradigm so we want them to really engage in self-analysis and really look at themselves as a person and as a person with aspirations person with strength person with experiences that may have impacted them in a negative way to really come as using us as a consultant to come up with solutions to make changes and kind of help chart out how they want to go about doing it so so it's a little different orientation so it goes back to strength-based approach to working with our offenders and people in general so anyone yeah and I just want to piggyback on that if I may and just say that I think both in the probation alternatives to incarceration world and corrections world we call that motivational interviewing that we're trying to train our staffs not to be the supervisor but more the coach to coach the offender along for them to make good decisions to lead them into good decision-making processes so yeah I agree with that we've got a question in the back yeah I think it's three for each one of each of you for the DC question I was asking since you guys are kind of mobile what technological what are you using technology wise to stay that way because if you don't necessarily have a home base but you have to work within the community what are you doing to do that so hang on then the next question related to the definition of exclusion as you presented it was that state imposed or was that something that's just base because when I was trying to listen to the definition I didn't know if that was something that was something that's just because you're a part of the system that you're naturally excluded or was something that you actually this is what you follow as a a tenant that you are excluded because of the act that you committed does it make sense what I'm saying I just wanted I just wanted some clarification on that and then for Rich I was going to ask because you talked about the sale boat thing that's going into this in this in this field has there been has there been in a governmental agency that you actually work with where it was more straightforward where you were getting hitting those points without the changes in all the different governmental you know elections and all this other stuff that may affect the work you're doing this has there ever been experience like that and what was it if there was one why don't we start with Dr. Montenegro and then Aaron and then Rich maybe I I think I want to talk about this both both subject I think we have to put on the table discrimination and stigma because it's maybe it's a ghost but it's real this population has extraordinary high stigma and discrimination and we study their needs for for exclusion we needed to know what does it mean about exclusion and stigma and discrimination was very important we study every single patient and what do they need for social integration and finally with our definition is according to this study but we need to talk about that because for example the agency when if another agency we are not in charge of this population they have enormous amount of stigma and discrimination they don't want to help us because they are criminal they are drug addict they don't deserve anything so this is not easy but it's important to put on the table all the time if not we are not going to be able to do it alone only the agency who are in charge because we need to integrate in different sectors in education, employment and houses housing and citizen and everything everything so we need to talk about that very important political decision because the political decision is very important also about stigma and discrimination we want to integrate them or not this is very important so Aaron how do your staff communicate Snapchat around BC so we have satellite offices within these communities we have requirements for our CSOs to be out in the community so because we require them we equip them with cell phones and then because we are shrinking our footprint like most of the federal agencies they are all we are transitioning into laptops with all the applications on laptops so they could be they could go to a field location in northeast DC they could go into the system and have everything available for them to do whatever they need to do we are also one of the panelists talked about moving into more of an app based like notification system we are developing offender app where we send out notices for their appointments with CSO all the intervention services their group schedules and etc so remind their kind of things so we have CSO dashboard where there's all these activities they need to complete and then have them have an app that tells them when things are due for their assigned cases etc so we are becoming much more mobile with all of our technology so truly be in the community and be engaging with the community and our partners in a much more technologically savvy manner Richard have you been part of the unicorn project where it hit all its milestones and proceeded in a straight line from need to reform to achieved reforms not necessarily in a straight line but there's certainly many projects that move along a lot smoother than others in terms of implementation and I know we've had a couple positive projects in Eastern Europe with not only Armenia but with Moldova and Kosovo on some of the activities that they're taking on relative to reform efforts other questions yes I have a question what does the panel think about the actual legalization we'll make this one real quick as a service provider and community supervision provider it's been a nightmare for us because the criminalization of marijuana in DC has created some differential system for the probation nurses versus supervised releases and pluralities so it's just been a very difficult process to manage so from our perspective it neither needs to be federal or like local it just becomes like a chaos for the system and also for our offenders because we have people with split sentences and all kinds of things that has different requirements it just becomes very complicated process in Chile it's not criminalized the use of drug so but about legalization is another subject is offering every single shop with publicity and a lot of access it's not good in my opinion because we are going to have more user and with vulnerability it's terribly dangerous because this is a problem with vulnerability social vulnerability principally but psychological and biological so we have to talk about vulnerability also when we are talking about this kind of subject because if you have an offer very easy the use is going to increase in general so decriminalize of course because you have to treat use of drug like a patient or like a citizen not like a criminal in my country it's not criminalized the use but we don't promote the use so we put different how can you say barrier for getting drug but if somebody is using drug is treat like a it's not criminal Richard anything to add? nothing to add from a correction standpoint alcohol and drugs still create an issue with security and safety in the institution and that wouldn't change my perception of that and could be any other questions? we've got time for maybe one or two more okay, Hamid closing remarks yes now to sum up to sum up well first and foremost I want to extend first please to everyone on the panel a round of applause it is never easy to be the last panel secondly I want to extend our profound gratitude to the staff and to the facilities here at the U.S. Institute of Peace who have always proven to be gracious hosts and special thanks to Chelsea Dreher in the back she has been vital to both publicizing and ensuring all the minor details from start to finish so with that thank you Chelsea and of course to our rule of law collaborative staff Soneco, Claire and somewhere in here or somewhere out there is our vital leader Carol Young all of whom who helped to facilitate the travel of our speakers the facilities and to make sure that the day goes smoothly so thank you to them finally thank you for especially to those of you to our speakers to our participants for making this day possible for accomplishing the task that we set out to do which is to explore a new topic and then to also remind you first and foremost on a logistical issue to complete your evaluations if you've not already done so and to keep a prize the next training that will be offered here in Washington will be June 3rd and 4th and that will be a imperative look on Islamic legal systems Islamic law, political Islam extremism all those fun things so hopefully today was a jitting up of the topics and we hope to see you at another event safe travels and good day thank you thank you very much


We regularly cover the countless gigantic ancient megaliths, which can fortunately still be found within the ruins of antiquity all over the world, enigmatic, often inexplicable relics of a forgotten age, that due to their controversial existence are either ignored by mainstream-funded explorations, subsequently obscured, overlooked by the greater world, or simply attributed to a culture once incapable of such undertakings. Once one is presented with the facts regarding these building blocks, their weights, the precision of the original execution, and the many other characteristics which elude academic explanation, it is easy to see why an academic world who continued to refuse even the smallest consideration in regards to the possibility of a lost chapter of human history, this regardless of the fact that said artifacts are rather ironically all undeniable evidence for their existence. One cannot only discover the motivation behind such denials, but the many tactics used to dodge such areas of study. For not only do we regularly explore these incredible megalithic legacies, but they are all too often attributed to a more recent, permitted, and thus funded, subsequently well-studied periods of ancestry. And our next item of interest is, of no exception. We have in the past covered a number of the astonishing ancient megaliths that can be found dotting ancient Egypt, the Colossus of Memnon, which apparently once sung at night, each car from a single block of granite, and each weighing in at over 1,000 tons. We have exposed the enormous stones which form the Great Pyramid's inner skeletons, along with many others found across the plateau and beyond, all of which tell of a lost knowledge and capability, unquestionably indicative of advanced ancient civilization. Pompey's pillar, located within Alexandria, is truly one of the wonders of the ancient world. One of the largest monoliths on Earth, 20 meters in height, and with a diameter of nearly 3 meters at its base, this enormous column was once sourced and carved from one single block of Aswan quarry's pink granite, and it is estimated to weigh an impressive 290 tons. Anyone within heavy goods, modern construction, will understand just how massive this pillar is, and indeed, just what an incredible feat it was for this ancient civilization to have once created such architecture. Pompey's pillar is so big that to claim such accomplishments were made within the Roman era or before, when even modern man has great difficulty moving such weights, even the smallest of distances, we feel is preposterous. Like that of the obelisk of Axum, which was unfortunately toppled, giving the obelisk its modern title of the toppled obelisk. This monolith is estimated to have weighed far more, yet was once erected somehow by an ancient ancestor. However, we feel, although at some time within the past, a concerted effort to destroy this legacy was undertaken. The pillar's enormous base made toppling it impossible by a later, less capable culture. Muslim traveler Ibn Patuta visited Alexandria in 1326 AD, having shot an arrow tied to a string over the pillar, he successfully climbed over it. He was later followed in early 1803 by British commander John Shortland of HMS Pandore. After he flew a kite over the pillar, again successfully getting a rope over it, on February 2nd, he and John White, Pandore's master, climbed it. When they got to the top, they displayed a Union Jack, drank a toast to King George III, and gave three cheers. Four days later, they would climb the pillar again. After fixing a weather vane, they ate a beefsteak and again toasted the king. Who built Pompey's pillar? How did they move and erect it? Is this pillar the only surviving remnant of a past enormous ancient structure? Or merely a single standing column, and if so, why? Why create just one pillar? Pompey's pillar is undoubtedly an amazing relic, left to us from a bygone era, and as such, highly compelling.