Good evening everybody. Tonight we're going to be doing Flat Earth versus Globe Earth and I apologize we were going to have a 2v2 but we moved it into a 1v1 we had a cancellation so we're going to have Iron Horse versus Aiden tonight and to get us kicked off Iron Horse the floor is yours. Well thank you Ryan and I did write an introduction that probably doesn't make quite as much sense now that we've gone back to a 1v1 but I did say well greetings to all esteemed opponents and I think we might be on the same side in many respects. Our gracious host Ryan and the modern-day non-partisan debate channel and long-suffering listeners from all creeds and cults whatever your personal philosophy may be. To paraphrase the famous author Sir Arthur Cohn and Doyle through his great detective character Shale of Holmes investigation is a process of elimination when all that is impossible has been dismissed that which remains however improbable must be the truth therefore when someone makes a positive claim the burden of proof is with he who makes a claim it's not the responsibility of the skeptic to prove them wrong however the scientific process of investigation demands that we question everything confirmation bias must be set aside and whichever conclusions most preferred by the secret truth and knowledge must be scrutinized most vehemently failure to do so creates an extremely fuzzy line between that which is scientific fact and that which is cult of religious belief. Without further ado let's jump immediately into the origins of the spinning space ball belief in fact almost 2,000 years prior to when Copernicus and fellow religious brethren put its spinning daily on saxis annually orbiting the sun like a wandering star and considered the ancient Greek philosophers who proposed the geocentric stationary spherical earth inspired by the likes of Pythagoras the mathematical philosopher who proposed sphere was the perfect shape since every point of the surface is equidistant from the center well they're still roughly 25 centuries or so before the first known telescope was used to observe the celestials it was not unreasonable to assume that since they all look round there's a good chance they might also be spherical so when Aristotle saw a circular shadow eclipsing a full moon it was assumed the sun going around the central earth was casting earth shadow onto the moon this is the first challenge of confirmation bias because anyone can place a ball in the sun and cast a shadow under it with a flat book or card and we see it as the ball itself causing the shadow to appear curved evidence which proves the moon is spherical at least the only side of it we see is not evidence that the earth is spherical nor is it proof the sun is actually beneath ground casting shadow from earth onto the moon in fact in modern times with modern technology we've come to know that sometimes on earth we'll see the shadow of something eclipsing the moon while the sun is still visible known as the cellar nelly and eclipse it eliminates all possibility of it being the earth eclipsing the moon and if time permitted we might explore the plethora of other possibilities actually fit observations over and above personal preferences another example had the head librarian of alexandria circuit two to three hundred bc set out prove the earth was flat and stationary with a nearby local sun then the method erotostin is used to estimate the circumference of the spherical earth with the simple change of biases would have confirmed the former rather than the latter would seem to mean in fact that every bit of bobevidence in existence is extracted from deep within the realms of personal confirmation biases rather than held to the deep flames of rational scrutiny through which every scientific theory must ultimately pass the globe has simply been accepted into group think collective high point of humanity through the process of brainwashing and repetitive suggestion to the point where most of us aren't even aware that our very thoughts are not our own our reactions our responses are often little more than rehearsed catchphrases and popular appeals to authorities by all means we should stand on the shoulders of giants past and present and use their knowledge wisdom and to advance us into the future present but bear in mind the tool is only as useful as the hand which wields it we stand before the greatest tool in living human consciousness as you witness not just the internet sharing information by the gigabyte per nanosecond but the live birth of artificial intelligence itself and it seems as though despite having the greatest tool at our disposal we have no master craftsman capable of wielding it to create the ultimate masterpiece it's always inevitably at the crossroads where we find ourselves making a deal with the devil everyone always chooses the red pill in the dream because the blue pill is so powerful it creates the illusion that you're in control if we had to wield our tool in accordance with every known law of physics we must accept the water always seeks its level that higher pressure always moves below and that resistance is the only force which presents a thing from dropping otherwise an object in motion remains in motion the force of resistance comes from density the relative density of the object to its surrounding medium since we live in the medium of air on the ground the density of air relative to everything else allows it to drop if it's more dense the multiple speeds and directions it must drop to create the illusion of dropping straight down on the heliocentric spinning spaceball belief boggles the mind to how any sane person of rational mind can believe them unless they are so outside of sane they're insane all right wrapped up right there thank you for that intro there iron horse just want to remind everybody that modern day debate is a neutral platform we host religion science politic debates we just had our debate con four and put up 10 videos of great debates with amazing speakers so go check them out it was a wild weekend over to you aiden up to 10 minutes for your introductory statement all righty so in terms of evidence that the earth is flat oh sorry it's the earth is round oh already lost there we go no uh in terms of the evidence the earth is round um when i was trying to pick some for this debate i was like a it was like a buffet i had so much to pick from i didn't know where to even start um to give a couple of examples uh one would be that um when you're on the southern hemisphere and you look south and you've got somebody else on a different geographical position also looking south they are able to see the same constellations now on the flat earth model uh that such a thing shouldn't be possible they should be looking in different directions but under the globe earth model they are looking in the same direction and are thus able to see the same constellation uh another um piece of evidence that the earth is round and not flat um comes from aerosophonies as iron horse did mention um what the experiment that aerosophonies i don't know if i'm saying his name right but i'm going to go with that aerosophonies um uh did was that he observed that shadows in the city of syrene um at noon well that were not existent like the sun would come up over the houses and stuff and there'd be no shadows casting from the houses so he walked over to alexandria um held up a stick and tried to figure out if that stick would cast a shadow at noon as it turns out it did now uh he was able to um measure the shadow and uh able to mathematically determine not only that the earth would have to be round but also the circumference of the earth and he did so with pretty damn good accuracy now of course how this would be what was verified by modern science that we've also you know gone to space we've taken photos of the earth all that sort of stuff we you know nasa's done a lot of work in this and of course we're expected to believe that a lot of this is either confirmation bias as iron horses uh put forward or it's some sort of a conspiracy they're lying to us to hold to a certain opinion or something and i guess i would have to ask why what would be the point what what motivation would each of these people have to prefer a globe earth over a round earth um iron horse uh mentioned pythagoras that's uh it was a belief that the um the circle is the most perfect shape and that's all well and good um but obviously that doesn't reflect on nasa's position that's the earth is uh globe because they'll even tell you that it's not perfectly circular so they wouldn't agree with pythagoras on his point there um neither did astuthanese use that kind of reasoning to justify his position he used experimentation along with logic and mathematics and he came to his conclusion based off that it's all well and good to say that well we need to consider the alternative of a flat earth theory but the flat earth theory doesn't provide any alternative evidence that we might consider other than just asking questions really you know how is it that's uh you know uh i can't remember what i know said specifically about air density but he had questions to ask about air density it didn't seem to make sense to me well that's all well and good that you can ask that question but asking a question isn't an argument there's you know if you aren't really sure about how air density is supposed to work under the globe earth model then ask a scientist um and they'll be happy to tell you um it doesn't really prove anything about the flat earth model like what i guess i'm sort of trying to say here is that i'm interested in what positive evidence for the flat earth model is why should i because i'm sure i've been raised to believe that the earth is a globe um but why should i believe that everybody who's told me that is lying um in favor of your model like because you could also not sort of accuse you of anything but you could also just be lying or deceived um and we could always say that oh you only believe what you believe because you're raised in a culture that's a fallacious argument because that's not addressing what the the validity of the argument itself it's just addressing where the argument comes from so i would like to know why the flat earth model it has more validity um than the globe earth model when the globe earth model makes sense of every single observation we've ever made about the earth um from everything to the fact that when we look out into the universe we seem to see that every other planet is round uh we have no reason to believe that ours is different all of our all of our global um uh positioning systems satellites all these different technologies that we use in everyday lives all depend on the fact that the earth is round so i would love to see the positive evidence for why the earth is flat all right we're going to kick it into an open discussion i'm going to remind everybody in our live chat too that we're going to be doing a q and a at the end of this so if you get your questions and now they're going to be asked nice and early both of our guests are going to be linked in the description below so check that out for sure uh iron horse i'm going to hand it back to you to respond to some of what you just heard to get us into our open discussion thanks for being everybody yeah no problem wow um yeah like uh i can hear you the conviction in your voice that you believe in what you're saying but when you say everything comports with the experience of what you expect for a round earth i mean round doesn't even mean spherical to begin with but even if you did assume it's spherical if you have to assume you know the most fundamental aspects of the spinning space ball is that it's spinning faster than the speed of sound one on the third times on its axis and it's hurtling through space 65 times the speed of sound and you're saying that our observations match that none of our observations match any amount of motion whatsoever so you've started with a very strong um appeal to authority which has no basis in reality not nobody has ever detected motion in earth in fact one of the things i was going to present but i didn't have enough time to it was a series of quotes of different scientists throughout the ages who have fundamentally said that everything that we observe acts as though the earth itself is not in motion everything i'd be very surprised to hear that so i'm considering that all the scientists i've ever seen of all who care of very much about observation obviously observation is an integral part of the scientific method and the entirety of the scientific community says that the earth is in motion around the sun so i guess what i'm trying to say is like you say that i'm making an appeal to authority but quoting sources like you even say that you have scientists that say that's um there's no motion in the earth so i guess i would have to say what makes you able to quote those scientists and if they even did say that and why can't i quote these scientists what is it about their arguments that's actually wrong i don't like i didn't i didn't think i heard that sorry right yeah well i've just opened up a a list and you know the first one's by avid einstein and we've got richard wolff and henry poincare henrik lorence lincoln barnett julian barbaugh isak mutin steven hawking george ellis and lorence krouse and each one of them is making a quote specifically saying that we observed the earth to be at rest you know i could go through them i'll read run at random no physical experiment has ever proved that the earth is actually in motion that's lincoln barnett every single one of them has said through the scientific process we've detected no motion of the earth and you have to bear in mind that this is many decades after focal's pendulum had already been in existence so all of them scientifically are saying it's a bunch of nothing as well so yeah so you mentioned einstein there so is the person who came up with the theory of general relativity which you know explains the whole you know orbit of all the planets and everything like that you think that that person are you um suggesting that that person actually thought that the earth was flat he's never said that the earth is flat i doubt that the idea even crossed his mind but because he was so indoctrinated into the idea that we are going around the sun that he couldn't believe the fact we have no optical experiments that can prove that we're in motion you know that focal's pendulum was well known for at least three decades prior so you so you say einstein was indoctrinated indoctrinated best on what what are they indoctrinating with the belief that the earth is going around the sun yeah but what did they use to indoctrinate him what because einstein's a pretty smart guy you know he believes in evidence he's a scientist he's obviously pretty scrupulous about a lot of things he changed our fundamental understanding of how time works i don't think you really pull a fast one i'm good all einstein so how do they fool him like what did they give him that fool him well it's quite possible that some people are just supports you know they can be brilliant at one thing but absolutely useless at another and say wait i don't think i don't think i'm brilliant on one aspect he might have been completely autistic on another level who knows i can't say i wasn't there but well i certainly don't think that's um einstein was uh uh uh uh incredulous let's say on astrology and that sort of thing yeah i don't really prefer that term to be honest but um uh when it comes to science and that sort of stuff and the way that the planets move um i would think that einstein if he was indoctrinated into the belief that the earth is round and that it goes around the sun it's probably because the scientific community maybe provided him some sort of evidence and it seemed to convince einstein um so i guess i would have to ask why that evidence would be wrong okay well um on that basis you know say i was einstein for example i'd never been exposed to heliocentrism before what would be your greatest evidence that you could present to me to convince me that the earth is a spinning ball going around the sun well first of all it's we're not really debating the heliocentric moment i mean we guess we could but yeah because that's that's what the globe is the globe is the heliocentric model or the flat earth is the base at the bottom of the known universe is one or the other so if you're going to be half of the globe then you have to be arguing the heliocentric model because they go hand in hand you can't argue yeah but we're arguing we're arguing on the um the the uh the curvature of the the earth we're arguing that for example like the evidence that i provided you that two people on different positions on the earth can look south and see the exact same constellation seems to suggest that the earth is round same thing with aerostophanies experiments made 2200 years ago all these different experiments that have been done and it's like well okay this seems to suggest the earth is round it seems to me that the only real real way that you can suggest that the earth is flat is to say but that all that's i just i want to know why that's wrong like what why is aerostophanies wrong why why is uh what why how is it possible that i can see the same constellation uh from the flat earth model i just i just don't get that yet we haven't heard that yeah well i think just as i explained in my opening is that if you were trying to set out that the earth is flat with a local sun then the aerotostenies experiment actually proves that if that's the the evidence that you're looking for because the shadow will be different because the sun is 500 or 800 stadia away or whatever might have been at the time so it's going to cast a different shadow at the same time in two different places as it goes around the equator that's why we have sundials and each and we have time zones because the sun is what's going around above the stationary plane of earth and that is basically the hour hand of a 24 hour clock going around above us every day so yeah that that can easily be interpreted you know the aerotostenies experiment interpreted in a completely different method or completely different um understanding to say it actually proves our argument not the preconceived bias of aerotostenies who was looking at the proof it was a ball in which case it would still also work but yeah i could also prove that it's 93 million miles away and i've yet to see a single glow but ever ever give me evidence for why they can say that the sun is 93 million miles away well first of all i could also say like just to address the point you made earlier that you seem to think that the evidence for your view seems to support the the sun spinning around the thing what you said 800 stadia away that's the same distance of um from uh um syrene to alexandria so you think that that distance the distance between syrene and alexandria that's how far away the sun is we would be able to probably no no we could fly higher than that i'm pretty sure that was that was the distance between the two places that was estimated by the angle of the shadows that the sun was casting but nothing to do with the height it's just i thought you said the distance sorry i thought you said the sun and and and since you did say that we can fly 500 miles high that's absolutely bullshit we can't send rockets 80 miles man 80 miles is probably about the top height anything can possibly fly before it starts losing any amount of drive and falls back well do you wait do you believe in i i guess i have to ask do you believe in gravity and stuff like that is that what you're saying is the problem that like um because we are because obviously from my worldview we've sent rockets up into space so it's like like we would have checks if there was like a sun that was pretty damn close but well if it was obvious you know we wouldn't be discussing this yeah it would be no i did that's everything i've ever seen shows it shows the rocket going to a big disney curve and falling back to earth and that's exactly what i would expect from the whole density and buoyancy equation is that that when the air gets so rarified nothing can thrust through it nothing can steer through it and it just falls back to earth that's what happens when you trust mere observation that's what happens when you trust mere observation if i was in a desert and i saw water you know in front of me and i just took it at face value oh yeah that water must be there but upon closer inspection i see that there's no water there you would just assume all there's the water was there but it disappeared like mere observation isn't going to get you that far and second of all you mentioned that the Aristophanes findings was just as compatible with the the flat earth view as with the round earth view i could also say that i believe that shadows created by these magical spirits and that the reason that those shadows were of different lengths is because the spirits were casting them at different lengths because they decided to and that explains the findings of Aristophanes right would it not but obviously i would need additional evidence as on top of that to say oh well we can make sense of it too it's all well good that an alternative argument can make sense of but i want like i said in the beginning i want more positive evidence to believe in the flat earth like i'm listen i'm open right it could preach to me like convert me to this idea i want you to convince me to be a flat earth because it's going to have to mean giving up believing that these people are telling the truth i mean they're going to have to distrust these people who seem to work very hard um i'm going to need something here you need you're going to need to give me something other than this vague skepticism towards this these findings which seem you seem to be very selective on okay well um look as much as that seems like a some sort of beautiful motivational speech there i've got no uh urge to want to convince you one way or the next you know i really don't give a shit what most people believe why are you in a debate like this is this is a debate you're supposed to debate because i believe that uh my understanding of the way things are is probably more correct than others but it's not like i give a shit whether or not people believe it on an individual basis i mean yeah until you came along okay maybe you're not motivated you should be able to at least verbalize it right like explain explain the reasoning like i'm i'm just curious about why you think this so explain to me what positive reasons are there for being believing in a flat earth all right that's quite simple looks well it's quite simple to me because reality exists on the physical plane and as far as i'm concerned it's the only physical plane in existence whether or not it's infinite i don't know whether or not there's other dimensions and different sorts of planes i don't know but what we're seeing is the physical reality when we're looking up into the sky we're looking at lights in the sky we're not looking at physical reality we're not looking at other planets and stars you know stars aren't suns what we're seeing is what we're getting that's you know it is what it is i just think there's anything physical that we can go beyond you know we can go down to a certain depth of water and get up to a certain height in the air but beyond that it's not within our physical capabilities of even contemplating being able to explore in the first place let alone you know keep daydreaming about it and sending rockets and that's a bullshit because we can never go there we've never been there and i don't think we ever have i think nothing's ever gone above 70 miles maximum height okay so all the people who all the people who say they have gone up there are lying got it so i'd have to believe that also you say that we've never been able to explore it so then how can you possibly have any confidence that the earth is flat if you can't even if you would be by your own admission can't even observe this you can't actually like go up into space look down at the earth and check if you believe that's impossible and how could you possibly have any extra confidence that the earth is flat because dude you don't have to go up there to see what's down here you just go down here you explore down here you see what's around you you explore as far as you can there's like there's a time lapse video you can look up right now 30 days time lapse at sea and it just shows 30 days of non-stop absolute flatness that's flat man that's it well that's like saying to a fish out of mind is a form of insanity that's what it's like that's like a fish was to say you don't need to go out there and check to see if there's anything other than what everything's just this ocean dude there's nothing else there we don't need to check we could just tell that from where we're standing right here no and even even if that was true i didn't say that i didn't say that did i i said by traveling exploring checking out what's down here yeah but we checked what's up there i don't i don't also so i guess i would i would have to ask all those people who went into rockets trained they're you know for this grueling thing because it's not easy to do right it's a very expensive endeavor to send rockets up into space right cost people a lot of money what did i get out of lying i don't i don't what's what's the what's what's the why should i believe that they're lying paycheck i just said it was a very expensive and data i mean sure the astronauts they sent up there they get a good paycheck but it's obviously costing people quite a bit of money well imagine imagine you know the level of um pride that america would have to swallow if they found out 100 for sure that the moon landings were hoax that that amount of stuff could potentially cause riots you know for a certain amount of people with in that sort of you imagine how much money a scientist would make if they were able to definitively prove that that was the case like if they were to demonstrate to the scientific community that there is an empirical logically consistent verifiable demonstrable fact that the moon landing was in fact fake and then they did that they would be one of the most famous scientists all time Nobel Peace Prize yeah sure america would hate them but i mean since when is like america like i don't i don't see why you even bring that up like i'm sorry but you've just equated having insight and knowledge exposing the biggest fraud of humankind is somehow going to make you a huge amount of profit i mean what if you demonstrate to the scientific community what do you mean by the scientific immunity going to throw money at you oh because you come up with something controversial that they just it would be a if you can prove it it'd be a Nobel Peace Prize they give you a million dollars for winning a Nobel Peace Prize that's a thing really as oh sorry is the Nobel Peace Prize also like there's no such thing as Nobel Peace Prize it's also a hoax that they're in on it too or something why should i i'm the list of people i have to believe list of people i have to believe hang on hang on the list of people i have to believe are lying just to me to get to believe you specifically you and maybe a handful of other people it seems a bit like i just don't know why you think that your findings are all that special really you haven't you haven't given me anything i've asked so i'm just just buying that's me observation i've already oh bring on a little tiny bit of lag out of you guys my um hang on is my internet lagging just a tiny little bit we might have just missed that very last part so let's just wait till we clean up a bit starting to look a little bit better oh do you want to try just finishing off i think i think it's better now i was just saying like all this conspiracism that all these different people are lying was well that'd certainly be quite a claim i just want to know why why are they lying how do you know they're lying what can you give me to show me that they're lying i just don't see it you you've made vague generalizations you've you know said that me asking for such a thing is a very inspiring speech i'm just asking questions here i'm just trying to find out why you think the way you do and you've not been able to provide me with anything i'm just asking why like just give me something give me some of the work with you he's given me nothing so far oh dude i think basically um nobody's actually lying are they because nobody's actually coming right out and saying that the earth is spinning ball that around the sun like a millions miles an hour like in every second of every day none none of them are actually doing it most people just getting on with their day without even addressing that thing that you're assuming that you believe in because you've been told it's true since you're a fricken five-year-old looking at a globe in the classroom but nobody is actually going out of their way to keep drumming at home that they are lying about it all the time we've seen a few select images over the same day lying why should i believe you when you're like why should i believe you i'll let you speak yeah i won't sorry i was just gonna say you say that they're lying that's quite the accusation i want to know whatever instead i didn't say they're lying you're saying that that i'm saying they're lying i'm not saying they're lying because they're not even talking about it they haven't presented nobody's even saying the words random examples over the decades that we barely haven't seen we just had taken to be assumed as the truth whereas most of the time we're not you know most of the time they just say global warming but we just dismiss it because we've seen the images of the globe so many times in the videos and the movies not so that we assume it's a globe and also photos there's nobody actually saying that it is actually a globe and photos of the international space station which you say are all lies for some reason like people have gone to the international space station look down say yep oh look it's a globe and that's a lie do you believe that thing goes around us once every 90 minutes uh yeah you do yes and how fast do you actually believe that the earth is rotating around the sun well it the earth completes a rotation of the sun once every 365 days yeah so if it's 93 million miles away and you're traveling almost one degree per day you're going about 1,600,000 miles objects in space which incurred no resistance move very fast that's fine that's fine look resistance space move fast what's the problem so you admit then that the earth is moving 1,600,000 miles a day to go almost a degree around the sun yeah okay problem well how fast is the ISS going around like it goes 90 minutes around the earth it's 7,500 miles per hour yep sure problem and that's assuming I'm waiting to hear a problem I'm waiting to hear a problem because our scientific models of how here's your problem man here's your problem the earth moving 66,600 miles per hour with the ISS going around at 17,500 miles per hour means that the ISS isn't going fast enough to go around the earth the whole time and this is going on 17,500 miles per hour plus 66,600 miles per hour plus then the 514,000 miles per hour the additional space going in another direction following the sun through the universe all right so let's unpack that I want to use an example real quick so what so do you believe that all the planets in our solar system they orbit around the earth the planets orbit around the sun so the planets all around the sun yep okay so like Jupiter for example you wear the Jupiter's moons yeah yeah it's got about well well yeah four main ones yeah like yeah yeah right so Jupiter is orbiting the sun at a very fast speed right and then you've also got its moons well it takes a whole year to go a little bit around it you know you fast as a relative yeah sure but like they're moving at pretty high speeds the same as the earth right obviously maybe the i can't remember the sun takes all day to go around as ones so i'm still trying to make sense of your model now so the all the other planets are orbiting the sun the sun's orbiting us am i getting that right so so you almost have a heliocentric model except that's just a special exception for no reason you have to see them as flat plates so you know each one is a flat plate above us and some of them are rotating at slightly different speeds you know the sun is going exactly 24 hours the stars are going on 23 hours 56 minutes the wandering stars are doing their own individual orbital thing which will make it look like they're doing a spiroscopic sort of model above us so when viewed from the stationary fixed planar below looking up at it the wandering stars seem to move in yeah so a bit of you the planets which you've observed around as fixed plates so i'm assuming that the the plates never turn on an axis at all because otherwise we'd be able to see them go thinner and that sort of thing well technically the axis is the north pole but but they can still act within their own planar dimension it's okay so i guess it's advanced level stuff we've gone through a lot of claims here so so i do agree that the planets orbit around the sun we're in agreement on that um but the earth is the exception all the planets are plates observations or no i'm about to ask you even if i was to grant you the validity of this theory somehow what would be the observations other than just like because even like i i i i don't even know how to ask you this question because if i asked you what observations would we have because we've observed other things that contradict your theory anytime we observe anything that contradict your theory you're just going to say it's a lie i i you realize we could do that with anything how could i possibly falsify your view when you just don't you just want to shut your eyes to the evidence like i just don't know where to go from here like what what criteria are you using to say that these observations are lies but these ones are the truth other than you happen to agree already with those observations because you talked a lot about confirmation bias but ignoring evidence when it contradicts your view is confirmation bias and that appears to be what you're doing so i what yeah i just what's the criteria i guess okay what i'm sensing here is that you've got very little understanding of what the flat earth model might possibly be that's all i can detect from this because because well i'm asking as soon as you understand that we're on the base and what when we're looking up we're looking up at stuff and it's very freaking distant you know but it's not necessarily that distant so yeah i don't know i can't see how you're saying how our observations contradict that because that's exactly what our observations give i'm not talking about mere observation where you're just looking up at the sky i'm talking about everything we say with telescopes you know the people are going on to the moon which you think is a hoax um the people who observe things from the international space station which you conveniently also think is a hoax every observation like if we're i'm including all observations that we made we observe stuff that contradicts your view but if we conveniently take all the observations which contradict everything you believe we we might just get your model but i just there's a very important question we have to answer why should we throw out all those observations for no other reason because it would make you feel well the thing is that we don't i i use those observations to come to the conclusions that i've come to i can look at these observations of like photos from the international space station i can look at my personal window i can't go to the space station and look out through their window okay i'm going to live in my view of the world and i can look at my window and i can look out and see the southern cross every night of the year in the exact same direction and in the heliocentric model the earth is supposed to be on the other side of the sun six months later looking 180 degrees the opposite direction and should see entirely different stars unless you also want to every single star of the galaxy is heliocentric and and obeying the same laws that just has a handful of planets that's supposed to be doing the entire galaxy is not going around the sun and yet from our perspective and our observations it has to be for the heliocentric model to work and you've got nothing well you haven't answered my question about if you want to talk about constellations you still haven't answered my question once about how is it possible that two people looking south um can uh on different points on the earth can see the exact same constellations as well like we didn't get that yet i guess i'm curious okay you've never given me the opportunity to answer that one but that's quite simple let's bring it to that it's very easy because we have time zones so when it's night time here it's daytime there and when it's you know we have the time zones so because the whole sky clock is rotating around above us then that is why we can see the same constellations at our individual night time which could be hours and hours apart just to see the sun at different hours apart you know you didn't really answer the question so if it's night time it is like because in two different nights at two different time zones it could still be night time right two different times you can still have night time so when they both look south they should both still be able to see the stars at night they should be able to see different constellations they see the same constellations what's the go with that yeah but they're looking at them in a different direction if that's the basic map of the air divide that into quarters right so so i i think i could see like a a smushed version of uh basically like south america there right they're in the thirds they are on that map there if i on that map there right i see a smushed version of a good deal with this screen of um uh south america right there okay if you look at a fellow on the coast of chili my geography is horrible i i criticize americans for this but my geography is horrible so you got chili and then you got that uh yeah right there and then you got a guy all the way up in that little corner on the other side of the country um looks like brazil the coast of brazil maybe i'm terrible with yeah so all right so those two would be in different different time zones would you would you agree yeah about a couple of hours yeah well they'd still be in different time zones if you look at the angles if they all would look directly south they would be looking in two different directions basically right yeah yeah they should be able to see two different stars and that they don't they see the same constellations well so that's the advantage of height when something is high you can see it from further and because the stars are actually high they're not necessarily where you think that you're looking nothing is is ever where you think things that you look at the system unfortunately the way things are is every individual perspective is going to be slightly different from another this is kind of what i mean like this like you mentioned before i can just go outside and look i can go out my window and look well when people do exactly that with the constellations they observe the same constellations this the globe earth model is the only way to make sense of that and that's the that's that's the only way to make sense of their observations but those observations the globe earth is already pre-presumed you know it's a pre-presumed bias if you pre-presume that then that's what you think you're going to see yeah for most of my life when i went and watched the sunset i presumed i was living on a spinning ball and i'm spinning rotating towards the east in such a way that it makes the sun appear to set in the west but over the recent decades i've taken that many videos where you can absolutely see without a shadow of a doubt because shadow is the doubt is that the further the sun gets away from us there's no shadow cast up from the horizon onto the sky behind me in the east where you should expect it because the earth is spinning faster than the speed of sound when the sun sets man that's shadow like any other shadow of any physical object should cast a physical hard shadow straight across the sky and go boom it was hard speed of sound and we never say it we see a long lingering twilight because all that's happening is the sun is just receding further and further away above the flat earth well you just said physical hard shadows i'm going to have to unpack that one well as a shadow is physical and hard under the flat earth level okay if you step out into what do you mean hard sunlight and you have a shadow that's what i call a physical sharp shadow hard that that's a physical shadow you will get that by any time you are directly blocking sunlight you will get a visible non physical peter pan in non physical that's that's that's what i was worried about like is the there's no reason for the shadow to project onto the sky as you're saying was that is that am i understanding that correctly no well my argument is it should be projecting onto the sky if the sun is going beneath the horizon but shadows aren't physical horizon hey shadows aren't physical no they need to be projected onto something physical they will be projected onto by something physical onto something visible physical physical visible but like the atmosphere well the atmosphere is arguably physical well yeah obviously yeah the atmosphere is physical but obviously it is um enough space between the particles that it lets light through that would even have to be the case under your model because otherwise we wouldn't get sunlight it would just not be able to pass through the atmosphere well you've heard about the um you know the uh venus bell what do i call that the shadow of venus bell i'm not sure what's what the relevance is is here and anyway i i what what we've heard so far in this discussion is that you've made a lot of claims that it is possible to make sense of the data through a flat earth model and that is technically true because when it comes to the flat earth model the flat earth model is a theory and you can change components of the theory at any point that you like and to make any of the data work you can make it like like i gave the example i understand it was a bit hyperbolic but i did give the example of shadow demons um controlling the shadows so there are different lengths right we can come up with all sorts of theories that can make sense of equal sense of the data but the problem seems to be with the theory that one there is no positive reason to prefer the flat earth model over the globe earth model and it also seems to be that the only way that the flat earth model can um make sense of the exact same sense data that the globe of model makes sense of is by incorporating extra elements not only do i have to believe that the flat earth like makes sense of all the things in the way you say it is but i also have to believe that all the scientists that have taken photos from the interstate space station etc etc they're all lying that's not extra that's less that's less that's extra that's extra no that's less you're cutting out the bullshit necessarily a every time you cut out bullshit it's less it's not extra we gotta give that iron horse a chance to respond there so go ahead iron horse okay i apologize yeah yeah you just keep making extra claims to say yeah yeah that's well if it's if it's less than by that logic wouldn't i be able to say i make less assumptions just by assuming you're lying how do i know you're not like a government agent trying to convince the world that the earth is flat to bunk that conspiracy real quick i'm still held up on there your last argument maybe maybe that is it the the the flat earth whole thing was just an astroturf little experiment a social experiment to see what they can pull over on people can you know social media and stuff like that be used to manipulate the masses maybe well what what i could just see i came up with a theory you don't believe in it that's why we need that's why we need a little thing called evidence positive evidence positive reasons to believe in your theory all right then and so so so yeah so we've already determined that there's no positive evidence for motion of the earth which is one of the most fundamental aspects of its spinning on its axis to be hurtling around the sun there's absolutely no positive evidence for that and you still believe it you still believe we still hurtling through a vacuum of space and yet there's no evidence to show that a positive pressure gradient atmosphere could exist within a vacuum there's no evidence for that i mean what are you talking about me so hang on i also got a question so like jessica watson who circumnavigated the globe you've also got a question hang on hang on well are you talking to jessica watson or are you talking with me well i'm i'm asking what you would have to say to jessica watson i guess like oh anybody who circumnavigated the globe like how was that like why does that happen with a lot of my understanding like you can go around the block and it doesn't mean at any stage we're walking upside down you know you can go around anything and if we got the north pole in the center when we travel east or west we are going around the north pole that's why our compasses always point towards it it proves jack shit and if you really look into it you will find that those Antarctic bay races actually take phenomenal distances between some of the southern legs of the journey which don't add up to the globe whatsoever but obviously you have to look into this sort of stuff you know it's not something i'm bringing this cold into a debate for some reason a 16 year old girl is also in on the conspiracy like i just i just want to know why like why i'm supposed to believe that there's a conspiracy to lie about these things what's how do you think she's involved in it asking you well i said she has to be she's she's not a very very great distance you know that's this big she did it she hated it she really killed herself down and she made a huge embarrassment of herself to the whole world doing it but we sort of looked over that and said well congratulations she did it and it is what it is it's a really really long way and she did it so good good so let me put it this way so i've got all the globe earths right i've got them on one side and i've got all the flat earths i've got them on one side do you believe it's possible that either group could be lying right i believe either group would be duped i don't think they're lying deliberately well okay let's let's say that well somebody has to be duping one side of the other you know like i don't think i think obviously i don't i don't think you're lying by the way i don't i don't think you are a girl from the asian i was using as an example right um but like i do believe that somebody told you to believe in the flat earth and you believe it um i don't think you're lying but one group of people could be lying about the flat earth one people could be lying about the globe earth you realize it would take me more more people more people would have to be lying about the globe earth in order for this to work but i could just as easily make that assumption about the flat earth it's all the people who were talking to the flat earths and for that reason you're saying that oh it's uh confirmation bias it's conspiracy that argument can be made on both sides so that is why i'm asking for this whole debate positive evidence positive reasons actual affirmations prove anything of the of the flat earth model we have evidence that the globe earth model is real right we have the whole constellation thing i've mentioned we have eristothemizes findings we have the fact people circumnavigated globe we have the fact that people at the very least claim to have gone up to the international space station taken photos we've had people send drones to the planets you say is the disk like we've had we've done all these things like to you they're lying why can't i just turn around say all the people who were saying all this flat earth stuff are lying what positive evidence anything i'm desperate at this point give me something well yeah i think you are desperate because you're trying to put words into my mouth i've never said they're lying i just don't think any of them have ever come back and said oh yeah the earth looks like a spinning ball moving millions of times faster than the speed of sound through the vacuum of space none of them have ever said it you're just making it up so you're putting words into my mouth i've never said also i'm saying is nearly every observation we've ever made shows that the earth is not moving every single airplane that flies up in the air flies on the flat level can go thousands of miles per hour in many cases it never adjusts for any amount of curvature so from for you to say that i'm lying about the things that we've actually observed means you're actually lying because i've never said such a thing and i wouldn't believe such a thing because everything proves the earth is flat so by the way you it wasn't so much that i was saying that you're lying i was saying that you were saying that the people have gone to the international space station to lie well they are yeah but some of them tell the truth you've got that one awesome dirt he went up there up there in the studio he slid a playing card into his pocket and when he got out there he's holding up a hammer you know the the ultimate reality hammer and he's got his playing card and he goes and sometimes you just might find a pocket of gravity so he lets the hammer go and the hammer just that's the card going the card just drops because that was the only real thing in the image the card he brought that up there to demonstrate to us how much they align and you don't see that guy on all the iss movies they drop that guy i'd be lucky if he's still alive well do you know his name no i don't know well there's so much evidence out there that i can't remember every tiny little tidbit of everything i see but i do remember quite clearly that and i could probably find you a meme that i have somewhere stored on my phone which shows him holding the card and hammer and we've all seen the life footage of it the video of it as well so no i don't personally know his name sorry okay well i guess for now then like till i see that i can't really base a flat earth belief on you saying that you've seen a guy with a hammer but you can accept that i'm credible enough that i'm telling the truth about what i'm talking about right i believe you believe you're telling i i think that you're telling the truth that you've seen the video i'm more worried about the credibility of the guy you're quoting more than you i'm not i'm not trying to throw any just trust towards your way but um you know like i guess like because it's gonna require me believing that guy is more trustworthy than like for example andrew fustel i'm just googling his name here ricky arnold uh you know all these different um astronauts that have gone up there to the international space station said yep uh look at that uh the surround i see it rotating around in front of the camera and thinking they're placing things on a shelf oh my god it's it's yeah it's pathetically sad and honestly if you really believe they're on an international space station why the heck don't they have like the greatest cameras hi there 24 7 filming down on earth filming up to the moon the filming the whole works you get nothing if you try and actually search this stuff and people try and say oh we've got live feed all the time you don't watch the live feed it barely lasts about 18 minutes before it hits repeat and replay and it's just constant crap there's nothing out there man there's nothing out there and we should be at the the peak of this stuff right now we should be seeing this stuff all the time we'd be showing on the news we'd be raving about look how good this footage is of the earth live 20 more seven from space there's none of it it's kind of the same thing over and over again because if you're orbiting it it's and yes you can find it there's as people have gone up they're taking photos taking videos i'm looking at them right now i've gone google images of them the photo of the earth guy guy in the international space station how long does it go for 18 minutes i guarantee no it's a photo it doesn't go for any length but okay it doesn't matter because it's not live you're looking at it well that's the thing any photos we have they're they're fake any videos we have they're fake i don't like if you want to say that like the um the footage is like on a what do you say it's on repeat on a loop yeah that's what you just look at what are they filming what are they filming like a youtube spy plane or something they're up at 90 000 feet that's the maximum a plane can reach and cruise that okay they're still filming the earth all right anyway yeah yeah what are you gonna film well like that's the thing like every every like i so far all you've said is that all the observations which disprove you they're wrong for reasons you haven't even really provided me too many observations that prove your argument only that they can maybe work within your argument um well okay if you squint at it and so you can see how the argument for the photo positions is if you're gonna keep straw manning my argument which you you are doing you keep straw manning my argument what exactly is your argument you know i can tell you what argument is and that is that the earth is spinning 1.35 times the speed of sound hurtling around the sun at 65 times the hang on 87.6 times the speed of sound as the sun itself is hurtling through the galaxy at roughly uh 670 times the speed of sound that's me straw manning your argument you believe that we are doing at all times while we just sit here and look as though the earth is appearing perfectly stationary and still so you just say i'll just go with the the status quo level that says the earth is stationary and still because it appears to be that way and yet your argument says where you're going making a presupposition that's your presupposition it doesn't matter how far it's not a presupposition it's a presupposition status quo what's the status quo then what's the status quo you're appealing to that's not that's not an argument all right you get a little responsive status quo is we're standing still status quo is that we're standing still in so sorry even though it's not we've disproven it and we've provided evidence that's wrong so the status quo is now that we've provided evidence that it's wrong the status quo now is that we're on a globe you've got to provide like i've repeated myself quite a lot you've got to provide the evidence and the evidence so far is you laughing like what what what what do we got here i'm coming up empty i was excited today i was excited to become a flat earth i was like oh man i can't wait for the earth to be flat i can't wait to hear all the awesome evidence and i'm disappointed i've got nothing near i've got nothing i hate to feel you hate to feel your disappointment mate but how is the status quo that we are on a ball spinning faster than the speed of sound or how is that scientific or are you familiar with what the scientific community is i don't give a fuck what crazy people believe i just want to know why that's why i'm actually i don't what you observe what you are feeling right here right now are you feeling like you are spinning faster than the speed of sound on a spinning space ball to earth and through a vacuum of space honestly i'm i'm so i'm so dumbstruck by these arguments that yes i do feel like that i feel my head is spinning right now my friends my head is absolutely spinning with these arguments well no wonder well i i don't wonder you have such beliefs i don't use my feelings to try to describe the cosmos i don't learn what is true about the universe because of what i feel that's that's not how that works you go out there and you discover it and you make so watch what's your go-to method for how you learn about the universe apart from how you feel what else is using using rational arguments and supported by empirical evidence using logical evidence okay so evidence of the earth moving let's go empirical evidence of the earth moving yeah yeah well i obviously haven't gone out there with a stick but the evidence that we do have well you haven't either you said that it was fundamentally impossible so you don't have fair enough um but like like obviously it is true not a single one of us has gone into outer space and like like seen it's like that so that's the observations we're talking about the observations we are talking about like for example the ones i brought up being able to see the same constellations of two points of the earth our stuff that needs example the international the photos and videos from the international space station etc etc i could go on those are the observations we're making right those are the things we're doing and each and every single one of them you just don't like you just don't like i've already explained to you i've already explained to you how the eratosthenes experiment could just as easily prove that you know just with extra assumptions a bunch of beer bottles across my table and trying to light on them i could show different angles of shadow and i could do the mathematics to show exactly how spherical and what table is it doesn't prove it is spherical it just proves that i'm using confirmation bias to prove what i want to believe as opposed to reality my table is actually fine okay so then by your own admission if if if you're saying that the evidence that erosophanes had could just as easily work for a flat earth model doesn't that mean it goes back the other way around that the flat earth model can't explain anything better than the globe earth model no it means that we got the north pole and provide me the reason provide me the reason we've got the equator and the sun moves around above the equator like the hour hand of a 24 hour clock i'm i'm i'm afraid to ask let it sink in it might take a minute but that's how it works that's how well that's our model i'm gonna have to let this sink in all right um this flat the equator is a 25 000 mile circumference around the north pole and the sun goes around above that and as it gets higher it appears to make a slightly smaller circle and then when it gets lower it appears to make a slightly bigger circle but in the middle of the aquinoxes and it goes exactly around the equator and that's our model so in other words like you've still provided nothing like i'm asking you what about the flat earth model provides more positive evidence all you've said so far is that erosophanes experiments can just as easily work under the flat earth model which means that the reverse must necessarily be true that they can work for the global earth model even if you're right which you're not right you're wrong about that because if you have a flat surface but you can laugh all your life but like at the end of the day i'm still waiting to go like we've been debating for hours laughing because it has actually been proven by what we've actually done it we've been going through two hours my friend we've been going two hours i've heard a single positive demonstrated we've demonstrated if you look at the azimuthal lake for distant map and you look at the time zones and then you work it all out they've got a line down through the dateline terminator where they've actually jumped in about three and a half extra hours because in the northern hemisphere the sun does appear to go through a smaller circle because that's how you're seeing it as you're looking up through the firmament and seeing the sun coming towards you this is how we see everything we're not actually seeing the actual sun we're just seeing how it presents itself to us through a firmament and as it does that this is literally the same shadow this is the shadow demon argument this is literally the same argument that you have some sort of entity or thing which projects what we're observing this one is actually we can evidence we can take pictures we can take fine flash photography of the sun doing a 24-hour loop around the arctic circle we've never seen around the Antarctic but we're sticking with the Antarctic for the moment because that is where we're looking at it happening and because the earth is on a slight tilt that's why it's on a slight tilt it's on a slight tilt the earth is tilted like that it's not it's not purely vertical it's tilted so that you have that no no no what happens is you've got a flat firmament above it and it's not that high it's only 70 miles and so the distance of the sun passing through the firmament gives you the appearance of being at an angle so it looks further away okay what if they're okay even okay i'm gonna try and be nice here because i am getting a bit frustrated over what we meant let's let's try and i'm gonna throw you a bone on this one let's say that what you just said is somehow evidence for a flat earth how could i not just say well there's an extra firmament above that see the earth has two firmaments and it makes it look like these observations you're seeing are giving you this answer but really earth is a globe of two feminists it's going around the sun what what what about that theory actually helps you like like i don't it well it helps but but yeah i just look at how many feminists pure basic physics yeah when i look at pure basic physics of say uh a lake that gets a frozen surface on it i look at it and it's only got one layer of ice above it so it might be nice to hyper hypothesize that there's two layers of ice above it i don't mean see why or how that could happen but if you want to believe in that well you know if it matches what you experience go ahead and believe it but it doesn't match my experience what i see is that all the celestial lights that we see appear into our sheet of ice the one and only and that's why they're all in focus when we look at them from down below at the same height about so many miles that's why they all appear to be at the same level to me that's just how i see it so the firmament's a sheet of ice now i'm i'm you've lost me man like why a sheet of ice why not what yeah like why not every or i reckon it's a sheet of fire dude i reckon it's all fire and like okay even like lasers of course you observe so much into uh what the firmament is but because some of us well i mean fire rises i would cold stuff sinks so they go fire it's it's all fire it's all made of fire but fire only goes over these side doesn't it and then it's cold up here you know well i think well okay but when it when there's an orange sunset that kind of vaguely looks like fire so there you go it's up there i've seen fire go up there that's fire it's made of fire your logic outstands orange sunset all sometimes i i feel the same way about you my friend it gets colder and colder as we go for the same way every biblical description of the firmament describes it either as beating you are going to bring out you are going to bring out the bible well let me let me go ahead hang on let me do it then let me do it so it's okay there's a beaten flat like metal or uh bronze it's as molten glass and it's spread out like a tarpaulin those are the three descriptions that you can find most common about the firmament and each and every single one of those could easily be interpreted as like ice for somebody who has never experienced ice before so that's just where i get so the experience from all right well if you're going for the bible can you provide the the bible verses please because i'm you i got me out of loss because when i'm thinking firmament i'm thinking about all the scholars who translate like what are you all calling firmament is it's called the waters but it could also mean expanse right because obviously you know like when you call like the like a sea i can open expanse for example doesn't necessarily translate to waters because terms aren't univical like that terms don't only mean one thing well as i said yeah i'm using the bible as well second of all i'm just saying that they are that all right well let me let me go ahead and uh quote the bible then in genesis chapter one verse nine it says and they gathered all water under the heavens all into one place so when you're gathering all the waters into one place what does that do when you're gathering something else on my plate is that does that maybe look like a ball that maybe look like a pool a pool i would use pool pool why a pool because if you're gathering something you're all to one place because if you just have a pool because if i had a pool water the water would be gathered into the pool but i wouldn't imagine it to be a sphere like that's just insanity yeah but it's specifically so that dry land can appear so like how do you like it's you can't you can't have the edges in the pool would be the dry land but even on your own model it's supposed to be an arctic ice sheet it's supposed to just be more ice you're you're throwing ice in there like how would i've never said a model surrounded by ice i'm looking i'm looking at your model right now behind you there's that looks like a white little rim around the whole world it's just as the entire ice lands and ice walls but yeah okay so that looks like ice to me far more i don't think that we're sitting in a void of space like well if then you're just green with the bible because the book of joe says the world hangs on nothing so there you go you're already wrong well okay well i disagree with joe fine that's fine all right well there you go i'm not going to force you to be a christian just don't try to quote what was everything else i said from the book of joe was it nice was everything else that i said about the term rackier from the original hebrew word for firmament was that from the book of joe why why are you discrediting everything i said i was i was looking through the unrelated i was looking through the book of joe the other night because there's people who try to go to the book of joe you know try to um talk about you know like the foundation yeah mate mate mate you're here here with me here and now and i'm not talking about the book of joe okay so try and keep on track you just said you quoted from the book of joe i am keeping on track okay i said you just did i will give you a chance to clarify their uh iron horse where you were coming from there never said for a second that he was quoting from that i was quoting from a book of joe but i don't quote from the way where you quote whatsoever i use the rackier in the most understood um interpretations of the word for which i use it which is you know beaten flat lug metal stretched out like a tarp hole and as molten glass and each and every one of those to me uh represent what i would expect of a great sheet of ice for somebody who'd never seen ice before on a frozen lake that's all i've ever seen i've never even used the word that's used to which actually does describe the cosmology is the word to home not right right here whatever you quoted it's the word to home that's means the deep should mean expanse and also that's another thing that's another word together what what words yeah exactly it's another word why am i talking about the deep when i'm talking about the sky dude what are you talking about because it's because those spaces that you ever heard of the term deep space it's an expanse my friend well yeah i have heard that's that term yeah yeah there there you go so that's why we're talking about it oh but you never heard of the term inner space i mean like inside as an inside an object yeah well i would assume that all of the existence of space that you imagine only exists within the six inches between your freaking ears and that's probably where all of space exists with most people who believe in it well i also consider uh space to be anything like that is extended for example like objects have to have their space in terms of being extended and in terms of your brain i don't think it has any extension so there you go well so it's all imaginary whatever you want to believe it's true i don't even know i don't even know what we're talking about yeah we might would have to try and get this back on track well maybe any questions in the open chat that's what i'm thinking it might be a good idea to get into our q and a so if you haven't already and you're in the live chat hit the like button i see there's 360 of you watching right now i'd like to see 360 likes i don't think that's ridiculous for me to ask so let's get into the super chats keep your chats coming in and we're going to try to stir the pot on our discussion here a big thank you to iron horse and aiden for this civil exchange we appreciate you guys coming out to the channel uh so orange rob for ten dollars says dear flat earthers please provide an example of a pressure differential in an enclosed container i believe i'd already explained that to you you can just have a gas bottle and when you got opg compressed into it you'll have a liquid layer and the fuller it is the higher liquid layer more it comes out um i would think that's a pretty basic example of a gas pressure within a closing container not that we say that's what air pressure is on the earth but that's one all right so let's continue on there let me just turn off this uh notification off my phone because that's really distracting all right so orange rob says five dollars why does flat earth deserve priority over other alternate explanations to mainstream understanding of how the universe functions definitely doesn't deserve any extra we should just uh follow the same rules and laws as everybody else any thoughts over there aiden i think the the spirit of the question is like what evidence provides greater preference to that because that's kind of the same question i was asking what evidence means that we should prefer the flat earth model over say i don't know tube earth model or i don't know there's those flat earth or there's models where it's like earth is shaped like a donut nuggy or something or like a like a donut earth model like what why why not prefer those ones yeah i think we should just base most of our observations on reality what we see and experience and um well let's hope that that's both crazy ideas um that great and all but i mean yeah why all right next one coming in from orange rob again uh thank you so much orange rob for your superchats there and hey if you're in the live chat and you got questions for our speakers get your super chats in uh as they will have priority as we read them orange rob asks again a gas bottle uses a siphon tube not a gradient no that's not true actually the siphon tube uses um water pressure to siphon water said gas isn't necessarily siphoning it's just a valve i wouldn't call that a siphon tube i think he's stretching a bit there any thoughts over there no all right let's carry on let's all good there uh so let's carry on uh let me just scroll back up through the super chats big reminder to everybody once again to hit the like button and if you didn't see all the debates that we posted from the debate con uh definitely check those out shortly we had a lot of fun last weekend uh let's see here manga fan dan says if god created earth it have to be flat like a cook you don't see globe shaped pancakes i think they're being a bit of a troll but if you guys want to have fun with it you can i think that's god's jewish so you would have made the earth like a mutt's a ball mutt's a ball that's that's that's he's a jewish cook all right well let's see let's see i always see the um i always see the bottom of the flat uh fry pan draw everything towards the center and make you a ball for sure all right let's carry on yeah because because god's a frying pan absolutely yeah in outer space excellent all right let's carry on lj hey you made it for the flat earth debate lj is uh our honorary uh flat earth uh live chatter if you will always put it in super chats about flat earth debates so when he makes it to a flat earth debate i'm always excited because i'm like you made it to the right spot this time so lj asks the globe religion requires early childhood brainwashing with globes toys and stories at what size do all observable flat bodies of water start to curve let's let's see austin sorry so he's asking so he started off by saying that the globe religion requires early childhood brainwashing with globe toys and stories at what size do all observable flat bodies of water start to curve so he's kind of baked the question a bit but you can work with it as yeah that's what i mean like if it's a flat body of water you've defined it as not being it not being curved so like there you go any thoughts over there it's easy trying to ask like when we look at like at the ocean why do we see like boats go over the horizon because i've even seen that i've seen boats go over the ocean and like you can see less of them as they go down down over the horizon because you know the curve i'm pretty sure it just means eight inches per mass weight all right well we can carry on from there um we'll try to keep stirring the pot on our conversation guys so keep the super chats coming in free free palestine says the mythical blue marble is in vacuum as per the CGI globe lovers just pseudoscience globe diarrhea uh nasa is lying in be smarter test the globe so it's more like a declaration but we read it out um let's see so the big thing i think they're claiming and it's one thing we didn't really get to talk about too much i mean we did a tiny bit when you brought up uh the live stream there is this uh this thing about the CGI we didn't get to talk about that too much so did you want to maybe take a moment for that iron horse or aiden and uh kind of entertain the idea for our super chatter there i missed it yeah so that's so let's say that like oh i think they were saying like nasa's lying which i guess i would have to ask how and why let's even grant the idea for the sake of a discussion iron horse let's say nasa is lying i would like to know what their motivation would be because this seems like a massive hassle for not a whole lot of benefit to be honest uh well you know like if i was gonna get 80 million dollars a day i would sort of think of um a pretty good reason to to be motivated to think up something that would yeah look feasible yeah just off the top of my head who's paying that money and why who's paying that money to buy the the u.s. tax pay is a planet because that's what they are getting fleeced to be doing ever since yeah we could go way back in the history so really the government's paying people the government's paying people to nasa to lie why or reason well have you ever heard about the whole idea of distracting people so they don't really see what's going on in the world yeah like for example we could be talking about uh you know the existential crisis of climate change but we're debating whether or not you know there's even a globe earth or a flatter well there you go that's a beautiful example beautiful example see so you've just called it an existential crisis and whereas as far as i'm concerned there is no fricking crisis the earth is so freaking big that there's not a damn thing that humanity could possibly ever do no matter how fucked up we got they could possibly affect the climate because that's never happened it never is going to happen but it's really easy to convince people who are easily typically minced in certain you know mind control things that that is actually a thing you know if we believe that those climate causes you have to change your behavior so you've just been mind controlled which controls who you are what you are whole climate crisis thing has never been convenient for governments like why would they make it up you know there's protesters on the street protesting the government for not taking action they're the ones pressuring the government the government thinks they're paying the arse if this is a lie from the government then they're certainly regretting it because that's also not benefiting them so you're believing those protesters on the streets with their placards they're the correct ones and the government's wrong they don't even have to be if the government is lying it's backfired is what i'm saying they have no way of benefiting from lying about any of this the government likes getting you know lobbied by a big capitalist corporations and those big capitalist corporations obviously don't want to acknowledge the reality of the climate crisis so you know if the government does do anything about climate change it hurts their relationship with the people who were in the pocket normally so step step step step back step back step back what climate crisis what climate crisis the climate crisis we're experiencing right now global climate crisis we're experiencing right now yes like you know experiencing right now there is no climate crisis we're experiencing right now you're in f***ing sane dude you're insane about every single little thing you're being filled by every little thing and you believe in the latest propaganda that's been spread out to you because you just follow what you're told. I'd love to see evidence, I'd love to see evidence that I've been fooled. It's all because you can do that with anything. That's what I was saying. Oh, you just believe that because you've been told that. Put a bunch of ice cubes in the glass of water and watch them defrost. Does the glass of water overflow? No, it doesn't. There's no climate crisis, dude. You've been messed up. Do you realise that, like, first of all, the climate crisis is going to primarily affect things like, for example, crop production.  What are we doing with this? Plants? What are you talking about? If the temperatures rise, that's going to affect our ability to grow through, especially in arid areas. All right, it's maybe a good time to jump in here with the next super chat there, guys. But glad that we managed to flush out a few other thoughts there. Let's see here. From LJ, coming in again, can anybody provide one observable proof for a globe? Yeah, sure. So if you're on, like, if you are on the Southern atmosphere, look south, you're going to see the Southern Cross, for example. And if you're on a different geographical point on the Earth, you're also going to see the Southern Cross, right? Now, under a flat Earth model, you should be looking at two different constellations, you're not because you're looking in the same direction because you're living on a globe. That's observable.  If any of you happen to be living in Cyrene and then able to walk to Alexandria, you can get some, all you need is a stick and some mats and you'll be able to have some observable proof. Or just look at the photos from the International Space Station. So we're not just going to add. Just another thing about looking at the Earth whatsoever. Yeah, you've just looked at the sky. You looked at shadows and sticks, but looking at the Earth itself and looking at bodies of water out flat and level layoff, as far as I can see. Are they not? I've seen boats go over the horizon. That's another observable thing. I've seen boats go over the horizon. These are the horizon. Just one second. There it is. Varicity of an Earth, 70% covered in water. All right, let's try to move on from there, guys. So I think we flushed that one out. LJ strikes again. Lake Pondcar train. Pondstrain. Thank you for that, Iron. Cosway proves it's not a globe. So, Iron, can you explain where he's coming from there? Because I'm not sure what that exactly means. Did he say it's not a globe? Yeah, that's what he's saying here. So can you maybe explain for the live audience what he's putting forward there? Because I'm not sure. I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear the actual message. So this one was from LJ. Let me just scroll back up here. Yeah, sorry. It's all good. Lake Pondcar train, Cosway proves it's not a globe. Yeah, yeah, well, it does. But for most people that have an understanding of how perspective actually works, you can just see it. It's like about 24 miles long, I believe. It's Lake Pondchartrain. And the only reason that the globe was used that as evidence is because they use the very end of where they can zoom in to the far distant poles and things disappearing over the converging bridge, ramping upwards at the same time. They say, oh, well, the one's ramping down, getting into the distance proves curvature. It's almost as ridiculous as proving that saying that if I drew a little letter O into the chat, that I could say that's curvature when it's actually a whole bunch of very small square pixels. OK, and Lake Pondchartrain is basically the very proof of very flat and how convergent it was. Any thoughts over there, Aiden, or would you like to move on from there? I'm going to be honest. I'm not even sure what was even said. So what was it? Lane, car, track? Lake Pondchartrain, Lane Contra train? Lake Pondchartrain. Lake Pondchartrain. One word. Is that a lat term? Pondchartrain, another word. It's a train.  OK. 24 miles an hour across flat and level water, causeway. People can drive across it. It's got a couple of dips for boats and stuff to get under. I'm not American. I don't know where this place is. I can't comment on that. I was just saying. But it's on Earth, mate. We're all Earthlings. Hey, hey, hey, it's time we moved into the future here. Oh, but I'm not from France. I can't. Let me Google it. So good. We can we can ask another one here. So this one coming in from I killed Earl says, I want Iron Horse to explain why I've never seen the Southern Cross and why Orion is upside down for him. The right side up for me in the US. Probably because you're on the other side of the equator and I'm on the side of the equator. So we look up at stuff and look at that on the other side and the Southern Cross is only visible outside of the equator. That's one of the ruling factors of how we decided where the equator was in the first place. I know it's weird, but hey, that's just the way it is. All right, well, thank you for that. Did you find what you were looking for there, Aiden, and want to make any extra commentary on that? Or did you want to move on from the Lake Punt Charterane? Yeah, this just looks like a bridge. I'm just the bridge. And I would what this proves people build bridges. OK, 24 miles long. Yeah, big bridge. OK, bridge. You know, there's one 100 miles long in China. It could be a thousand miles long for all. OK, it doesn't prove anything about whether it's covered or like you haven't. Well, it does. It does because your globe has to mathematically conform to certain principles that it doesn't. That we see an observation that if it doesn't perform to it, then that makes it flat. So so hang on. You didn't explain how it doesn't conform to it, though. So for example, if I'm looking if I'm standing at one end of the you said 100 miles. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, am I am I able to see the like if it doesn't go over the horizon? The distance. Can't remember what what what do you mean that the picture? I will not show it to me. Oh, it doesn't. I just don't know. All right, I'm still struggling to like they just built a bridge. If you're seeing a hundred miles to the distance, man, if you're seeing a hundred miles in the distance, there must be more than a mile of coverage drop to conform to the global left. Most people believe that's that's all. We'll move on from there. Free free spot. Palestine says, are you enjoying your wonderful global abortion with a heart emoji? So not too much to comment on there. Thinking monkey says, when you are cruising, when you're cruising speed in a plane, you don't feel the sensation of traveling at 580 miles per hour. So why would we notice the speed of earth? Thanks for your first super chat there. Thinking monkey. So yeah, when we're traveling on a plane, why don't we feel the sensation of traveling at 580 miles per hour? I think that's pointed at you, their iron horse. OK, well, I would say the reason we don't feel it is because we're within an enclosed capsule and it's pressurized. We've got walls. We've got no wings on the side. I would say if we decided to go and sit out under the wing to pour our cup of tea, we might find a different story. OK, next one coming in from Megan Marie says, even if the earth was flat, what would there be to gain from hiding the shape? There is so much evidence. It's a globe. Look at the Pontchartrain bridges. So somebody brought up these bridges again as a reason against it. Somebody brought up a reason for it. So we've heard two different stories now. So this is getting interesting. I'm starting to think this bridge might be the crux of this whole conversation. Thanks for your super chat, Megan Marie. So even if the earth was flat, what would there be to gain from hiding it? Shape, what do you reckon still win that item? I don't know. Maybe I'm at a loss because that's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know. I'm at a loss to know why anyone would lie about the thing round or flat. Like, NASA could just could have just solved this whole thing. Just said, oh, yeah, that's flat. And what would be the issue with like, I don't. NASA wouldn't I don't get why they would do this. I'm still wanting to know. All right, all right. Well, I would say then why would be the fact that let's assume that where useful workers for people who assume that they have some sort of ownership over us. So we just say we're slaves. Let's just assume they're not saying we are not so well. Just saying if we gave the slaves the idea that there would be better working conditions outside of the compound within which we live, then there's a potential that some of our slaves might want to escape. And if we find too many of our slaves escaping and we might try and do something and rain wash them in the thing. And that's not a good idea. The this is all there is. This is all we've got. And the Antarctic ice wall is the limits to it. And so this is what we're currently found to because potentially there might be better plantations to work on on the other side of the fence. Any thoughts over the Catholic Church, which is I was just going to say the Catholic Church is one of the most oppressive institutions ever conceived of by humanity. All taught that the earth was flat, basically. So, you know, I don't see why that follows. All right, we can move on from their mega Marie strikes again here. Let's see. Oh, sorry, that's the same one. But yeah, thanks for your chat, mega Marie. LJ coming in again, aid and prove that rockets actually make it to quote unquote space. I don't have one in my backyard right now. So I could probably show you a video of them going up to space. But then you'd say a video is fake and maybe even if I did have a rocket in my backyard. If I if I was a billionaire and had a rocket in my backyard and got in it on this live stream, went up there, you'd say this is all a government conspiracy. There's nothing I could show you because you cannot be shown anything because you will not pay attention to evidence. All right, the moment you start paying attention to the evidence, I'll show you the evidence. All right, well, thank you there, Aiden. And next one coming in free free Palestine says it's a horizontal horizon, not a curved horizon, not a curved curve. I might I messed up your pun. I'm sorry, let's carry on, guys. Invite me, XD says, if the earth was flat, wouldn't major companies who are hellbent on maximizing profits reveal that and use it to their benefit?  That one went right over my head. So I'll just. OK, so let's I'll try and like steal man the point. So let's say that there was more land beyond the ice sheet. I would imagine maybe more oil fields. You know, more resources to exploit. Companies would be making a killing or frozen for me. Oh, yeah, your feet froze for a second there. You're back. Oh, are we I'm back. OK, awesome. So as I was saying, if there was all this land beyond the ice walls, a game of Thrones or something, then the companies would be able to go out there and exploit the resources beyond the walls, right? There would be land to cultivate. There would probably be oil fields conceptually. There would be so much more resources for the corporations to be able to harvest. And they're giving all that up for what reason? That would be a. Well, that assumes that it's something of value to us. Yeah, what if it's absolutely of no value to us? I mean, technically, when you think about it, gold looks pretty, but it's of no value. It's just the thing that we've determined will set a standard of wealth towards another piece of nothing.  All right. Let's try to move on. I guess I think we've gotten all our points across there for that one. Thanks for your super chat by Mixty. LJ says Aiden hasn't provided one proof for his globe or religion. I think you've already asked this question, LJ. But if you want to take like a couple of seconds to you know, he's he's saying that, you know, believing in the globe is a religion. So if you want to maybe take a moment and talk about that, you can go ahead, Aiden. Well, praise be to the globe. Let me proselytize to you, my children. The Holy Globe, you see, has many gifts to offer its disciples, such as when you are on a point, certain point geographically on the earth and you look south, you will probably see the southern cross. For a different point, you will see the same southern cross because of the curvature of the earth. Also, our Holy Mother globe has blessed us with so much technology that is possible due to the globe of the earth, such as the International Space Station to be anything or the satellites, which allow us to have global positioning systems and all these different technologies. This is the fruits of the Holy Globe. OK, and I would ask you to repent of your flat earth sins and please join our global religion. Thank you. All right, that was fun. Let's carry on. Oh, thank you for that. And Iron Horse, I see you over there. You guys are both characters. This has been a joy to host you. I didn't hear a thing. I was just concentrating on something else. Sure, you were. All right. So Free Free Palestine says all space agencies are just taking your money. Rockets cannot get high enough to show the mythical blue marble. Just CGI. Earth is seriously flat. It's another declaration and you're kind of going down on the CGI. But we do appreciate you Free Free Palestine. We're going to try to. I agree. I reckon that's the spot on like that they haven't. But yeah, every time we see something that is sent up as a rocket going into space, you will reach a certain point. You know, well, they'll show it and show it and show it. And then the next thing you just reverse the CGI. We've never actually seen a full footage of anything continuously going in space. All right. We're at the people that actually had some law law. So are they lying or the CGI in the firmament? Maybe they're watching the same CGI stuff. You say it, it just switches cameras there. It switches cameras every time, every time. Guarantee. All right. Let's get to the next one, you guys. All Jay, you know, what would be a flat Earth debate?  What would we do without that? Oh, man, I appreciate you. All Jay says, again, would anybody get on a 17,500 mile per hour roller coaster? I wouldn't.   It's too fast. Any thoughts over there, Aiden? They're saying that like the Earth's like moving too fast for us to like, like even I think even iron horse at one said one point said speed is relative. And, you know, objects in space move very fast. I don't see what the problem is when we're all in the gravitational field that we're in. You know, iron horse mentioned that we're in a plane. When you're in a plane, you're in a container. And so that you don't feel the speed. If you're on the wing, you might feel a bit different. Well, the atmosphere and the gravity is what's containing us. So I don't see what's. There you go. That's the answer. Very nice. Very nice. All right. Orange Rob, would you get on a one mile per hour roller coaster? Sounds kind of boring. Any thoughts there now? All right. Sorry, Orange Rob. I'm sitting on one. Everybody's sitting on their hands with that one. Kango 44. Modern day debate. I know a homeless guy on my street with a sandwich board.  I'm not finishing that one off. You're. Yeah, come on.  Shall I give him? Shall I give James his details? Oh, Kongo. You're just. You're. Being a. That homeless guy. $25. All right. Sounds like he deserves it. Matters now, which is secretly Ozean. And I have to say that because some people are going to think it's secret. Yes, they're going to say it's me because it says after show on my own and Ryan's channel open stage. So there is an after show that me and Ozean will be doing. I'll give both of you fellas the stream. You are linked and you can join us in there and get some of the audience questions and stuff like that in person. If you bike. Well, you know, in internet person. So just posted the link in the live chat everybody and we're going to. Move on from there. All right. So back to my scroll.  All right. I'm going to read yours a little carefully now before I go through them. All right. So LJ says he feels like you've said a lot, Aiden, but you still lost the debate. So he doesn't feel like you're saying too much. Did you want to make any commentary on that? And he clapped backs or just carry on? I didn't hear any of it. My internet cut out. Sorry. That's okay. Maybe that's for the best because I don't think LJ is being very polite. So Congo 44. My Indian cut out too. It's okay. So yeah, I'm going to skip over this one Congo. We're going to try to get something that spur the conversation, but thanks for getting it. Oh, okay. Fine. He says this is real bottom of the barrel stuff. Iron horse has the has drunk the contents of the barrel. So I think he's saying you drank the Kool-Aid, but he's also kind of making another backhand. So you can let Congo know how you feel if you like their iron horse. But there's plenty more barrels that come from. If I just put in the one bottle at a time, they're not doing a barrel. That's just a barrel. Right. Anyways, we're all bad. All right. So Joe, a barrier. This is iron horse. What is the speed of sound in a vacuum? Well, technically, there is no sound in a vacuum because everything requires a medium upon which to vibrate and be frequent upon and say, well, the speed of sound in the atmosphere might be about 767 miles per hour inside a vacuum. There's nothing for it to be frequent upon. So there is no speed of sound. All right. Let's carry on there guys. And as I was the crew will begin. Matters now. Ozean says it was Richard Garriott on the ISS. He's alive. I think that's the person you were mentioning. I think that's a reference to the, yeah, Richard Garriott. I think I've heard of him. Garriott. With tea. Garriott. Yeah. Next one.  It has to been Ilabaka and also reinforcing this idea. He says iron the guy on the ISS was Richard Garriott. He's still alive. He enjoys magic tricks. That's what he did there. You haven't even looked into it. Sad. Any thoughts there, iron horse? Sorry. I wasn't paying attention. I thought I was addressing him. Damn it. Iron horse. I'll read it again. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're fine. I'm just picking iron horse. The guy on the ISS was Richard Garriott. He's still alive. He enjoys magic tricks. That's what he did there. You haven't looked. Yeah. Yeah. And that is exactly how I would describe it if I was doing the color story for the, for the NASA people. So far with Richard Garriott. I just, it's a doctor who's like a therapist or something. Nuclear science. What it was. I can't find the guy you guys are looking for. Oh, you don't need to. It's just, it's just a guy, you know, like, you know, you would think that if people are going to be under the ISS, they're going to stay there for three, four, six, maybe eight months at a time or whatever, but they just interchange them in accordance to how it works with the ISS. So Durendal sends in a membership chat. We'll carry on there. Durendal project sends in a membership chat and says, argument from personal incredulity. So you're saying that you're saying, I don't know there for X and inserting what you don't know. So that's from Durendal project. Do you want to explain to him how what you're doing is not an argument from personal incredulity? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think both of you can maybe take a moment to explain. If you both like, I mean, unless you want to say, hey, yeah, I make an argument from personal incredulity, but you know, if you want to explain how that's not what you're doing, I'll give you each 30 seconds to explain. You got it. Yeah. So I mean, I've looked at the experiments that we've done the whole, I've mentioned a couple times the stars and looking south. I've mentioned Aristophanes. I've looked at the photos on the International Space Station and the videos. All that sort of stuff. Like I would have to be personally incredulous to that information if I was making that argument. All right. Iron horse. That was awesome. That was beautiful. That's exactly what I would expect for an argument from incredulity. Perfect example. Thank you very much. Alrighty. Let's carry on. Question for Irons. So from the UK, if I head west, I will reach the shore of Antarctica, correct? As it goes all around the outside. So going west from the UK. Yeah, technically, if you, if you just start west, but you stay in that direction, you will end up going south. Yep. That's how it works.  But yeah, if you just started west, set your bearings. Went south. Absolutely. You will reach the south pole. Alrighty. Next one coming in from LJ asks, Ryan Google highest continent on earth. I think it's Nova Scotia. That's where it's all legal, right? Let's see here. Antarctica is the highest continent in the world with an average elevation of about 7,200 feet, 2,200 meters above sea level. This is due to the thick ice sheet that covers most of the continent. Asia, on the other hand, has the highest and lowest points on earth, such as Mount Everest and the Dead Sea. So I'm just reading that directly off Google. You know, you can flame me in the comments for taking the first thing I read off Google, but that's what I got. So I'm not sure why you brought this up LJ. You guys want to, can you maybe explain Iron Horse, what you may be getting out here? I think LJ is spot on to it. He's just saying, yeah, Mount Everest, it's only like five and a half miles, maybe whatever. Yeah, 5.5, 5.4, I can't remember. But it's pretty high. It's a pretty big mountain. But that's the biggest thing we've got. But then when you go out towards the Antarctic Circle, yeah, it seems that some of these mountainous expanses are like 12 and a half miles or more high, which is way more than Everest. And yeah, you would think that we would have more information on it if that was the case. Any thoughts over there Aiden? Do you want to carry on? I'm not sure what that was supposed to be. Okay. All right. So yeah, if you're hanging out in the live chat, we've got about half of you that hit the like button. Let's keep it going guys and see if we can cap out. JD on YouTube, Aiden, the benefit of fooling the masses about the world we live in is for control and making people surrender to what science says, for example, three years ago. We can't talk about what happened three years ago, but I get what you're saying. Just as easily control people on a flat earth, like if you want to use science to control people, you would say you would make up a different lie like, oh, science demands that you all sacrifice your first born children to make fruit grow bigger. That would be the kind of lie science would use to control people, not the Earth is round. There's no control that that benefits you. And that's proven by the fact that you're rebelling against science on this issue. So there seems they've swept up a little controversy that they didn't need to. So if that is true that they're doing this for control, it's certainly backfired. Any thoughts over there? Did you want to carry on, Aiden? That seems a little bit strange that, yeah, that would be the case. Yeah, we'll carry on. All right. Let's see here. Question for, so, yeah, that was the last one was from LJ. JD on YouTube. Let's see, Swampy Pubes. Enjoy the debate tonight, gentlemen. Great job as always, Ryan. Well, thank you. Thank you, Swampy Pubes. With your nasty Swampy. Great name, by the way. Name, yeah, take a shower. Like, they'll thank you for that. All right, Orange Rob, again, please provide an example of pressure gradient in enclosed container. Not a bottle that you release pressure from. Iron Horse, you are brainwashed, they say. Ooh, spicy. Precious gradient.  Like, all right.  And it's a red bull. Yeah. Oh, pressure gradient. All the gases are escaping.  Oh, was that the question? Well, I think, I think we can carry on from there before we release any other gases from our containers, guys. We'll behave ourselves over here. Okay. No fart jokes. All right. Iron Horse, the water of the oceans is not flat. Tides are a thing. Or are tides part of the conspiracy? Who asked that one? That was from Kango 44. They're on their best behavior this time. Kango 44, right there. Well, are tides white again? Damn it, Iron Horse. Hold on one second, everybody. All right, so question for Iron Horse. All right. The water of the oceans is not flat. Tides are a thing. Or are tides part of the conspiracy? Not a part of the conspiracy. There's no doubt about it. Definitely part of the conspiracy. And he thought so. You know what? I'm coming clean on this one, guys. He's right. I paid the tides. They're on my payroll. I paid the tides. They're on this, all right. Look to this. Follow the money, man. The tides are in on this. Oh, man. We couldn't be having more fun if you paid us. All right, let's see here. Question for Iron Horse. They're playing this game. I know they literally put it in Super Chats right now. Thanks, guys. That was part of the joke, right? I can't help but get at least one dad joking per stream. So if you guys got any more Super Chats, keep them coming. And we're winding down on the end here. So Kango 44, question for Iron Horse. Why, during the construction of the London Underground, was the curvature of the earth taken into account? Please try better than just denial. I assume he's talking about the London Underground tunnel towards France, which is the channel. And the only curvature that they could possibly have taken into account is the fact that the compass is always going to be pointing to north. And that far north, close north, the only curvature was that left-right curvature. It was never ever once the up-down curvature that some sort of globeheads might have shimped. But, you know. Any thoughts over there, Aiden, or want to carry on? I think we're good. OK. All right. Let's see. Our old Jay, $1.99. Flat would mean there's more undiscovered land. Duh. I hope I put the right glasses on, Jay. Yeah, LJ, that would mean there's more incentive to go out and exploit and go get that undiscovered land. Why are the corporations not doing that? They would be if there was more land out there, I promise you. America would be the first, all those oil fields, man. There'd be sweeping in on that. There'd be a whole, oh, man. We couldn't even call it the conflict in the Middle East because if there's more land out there, there's more land out there because if it's even in the middle and then the east anymore. Well, what about if these people over the other side had, like, better technology that made your little airplanes drop from bombs? They'd come and take our land. They'd come and take our land. Why? They haven't. Because that's what human beings do when they have better technology than other human beings. Well, maybe what they've got is already so... Control. Control. For control. It's control, man. If I had something far superior to what you got, why would I try and take off what you got?  Ask the Roman Empire and ask literally every conqueror in all of human history that has ever taken anyone for anything. Like, literally... Because it had some sort of wealth value to them at the time. Yeah. And the oil we have would probably be valuable to them. Probably. The electricity we produce. The slave labor. Probably. Your strongest argument is probably. Oh, my God. It's talking about a mythical race of human beings beyond the ice wall you imagine. Exactly.   It was your hypothetical. It was your hypothetical. You're the one who invented the people beyond the ice wall. All right. Let's just wheel it all in. We're going to take it down a few notches here for our last super chapter. Guys, yeah, this has been a joy. And you guys are obviously having a lot of fun engaging with each other. And I see you guys in the live chat. You're having a lot of fun. I'm going to put your name. That's for sure. Since you called me rain, you didn't spell my name right. So this is only fair. Is our. Is our. Why can't rockets reach the dome? We have the math to reach the moon. Flat Earth show the math to reach the dome. And yep, rain.  I think that's a great question. Honestly, I don't have the answer to it. But what I would say if I try to discern the answer is I would say that once a certain thing gets above a certain density of the medium, which is there, which gets less and less and less, as it gets higher and higher is that it loses the trustability that you might suppose to it to the point where it has no trustability and so just as a big Disney show, it comes back in the lab. And that's basically the end of the story. All right. So what we'll do then, since that was our last super chat, unless any more come in last minute, I'm going to give you guys each one minute to give your closing thoughts. So Aiden over to you one minute on the floor closing thoughts on our discussion tonight and interacting with iron horse. Alrighty. So tonight we all today, depending on what time zone you're in, we've been discussing why we should believe in the flat earth model. I asked on horse for a positive reason why it has more evidence or any anything better it could offer us than the global model. And each every single time it came up short apart from appealing to mere observation, which you can be fooled by a mirage in the desert if that's how you're going to go by things. But frankly, I was disappointed. I wanted to become a flat earth today, but it didn't give me what I was looking for. So that's all I got to say about that. You got it one for one minute on the floor there iron horse. Yeah, that's that's really interesting because I'm still surprised that anybody could actually believe they live on anything except a flat station here. So yeah, I'm very impressed with the fact that he could cling to the preconceived notions that you've been brought up with since a young child to still believe we live on a spinning space ball hurtling through a vacuum of space. I think that's just incredible that the length it takes to believe such a thing. It's some it's probably the greatest miracle in the world. So thank you very much Ryan and appreciate being here. All right. Well, thank you so much iron horse and Aiden a big round of virtual applause to them in the live chat. We are going to be back next week for more juicy debate. So make sure you hit that like button. You know, if our speakers have links, we're going to get them linked in the live chat. If they're not there yet, we're going to get them there for sure. So stay tuned. Once again, hit that like button and we'll see you all shortly. Take care. Yeah, no problem at all. I'm going to send you guys if you want to join me and we're going to head over to our show and do a little after show. We want people to be directed there after show. Oh, after show at the highest content on earth. Damn it. That was that was buddy super chat because I just copy things. Still live likes is something good. That's that's kind of what I was hoping for. They can hear me kind of talking about it. I turned down the music a bit there and I am glad to see you're hanging in the live chat. So yeah, when I switch the screen, I did turn off my mic, but I guess it's still on for all of you to hear. So we'll see you over on the live show guys or the after show. You would never do that.