less to cut around all right yeah less to cut around yes less to cut around less to muck around that's it I'm wondering if I still don't know because you still seem a bit I'm a bit quiet yeah oh that's me that now there we go yeah yeah it's kind of bouncing gotta get them levels yeah so I might just like stick around here do you remember the club levels I have never been I I've never been either I remember I thought it got rebranded yeah because it's called like sorry grandma or walls called sorry grandma as well right which you know I get it cuz get it inside Jack this is like what if I'm doing here tonight I'm probably my grandmother that's like I think levels and I think of that like Seinfeld oh yeah yeah yeah he's just like I always wanted to see that visualize yeah you used to be up and he used to be down now yeah now he's up and now you're down yeah that's oh yeah yeah yeah when George is George is up and Elaine is down yeah yeah she's just having a bad time George she did X to me Jerry she did the thing she did the thing she did the thing Jerry that's that formula that's fine like this is why I said fuck off because you won't be able to keep your mouth shut without interrupting I was like I'm like I'm there are other I have like I've been honest I'm he talked during the recording Jerry he during the recording he talked during the recording he talked during the recording he did the thing Jerry he did the thing he did the thing not the thing not the things bad I don't want to be a pirate why would people do the thing it's good here's the thing why do people say that when there's if there's going to be a thing why do you need to be right now so that's not no that was I think here is the thing about it's just like something I think that there's going to be a thing I just tell me the thing that's just that's just a sad version of Jerry Seinfelds what's the deal that was kind of the joke they were sort of like hackneyed comedy writers that's why they made a really she's going Jerry Seinfeld hackneyed and welcome to I say Jerry I like Jerry Seinfelds comedy it just feels like I obviously preferable observational every every time I go back and watch some Seinfeld I try to watch a different one from the last time I like you know if I watch if I watch the juji fruit one right then I'll try not to watch because also the juji fruit one's actually one of my favorites right Elaine's like fake out and the dude gets run over she because like Jerry and George are trying to explain like the fake step like you fake walk and they'll keep going and then you can like turn and like go the other way and get away from him like if you're trying to escape someone walking with you and she does it at a crossing and so she fake walks and he steps out she's not paying attention because he's talking to her and he steps into traffic and gets run over because she's trying to break up with this dude this is the old guy wasn't oh no that was an art attack or something no no yeah maybe maybe I'm getting a confused oh no that's right no because she was at the movies now I'm getting a confused with the yeah the juji fruit ones where she's at the movies yeah yeah yeah and then the guy she's trying to that she wants to break she wanted to break up with him and then he ends up breaking up with her because she stopped for juji fruit yeah yeah yeah oh it's coming back to me she's like oh no I have to get the hospital and then she turns around then she's like can I get a packet of juji fruit yeah yeah I remember that I'm getting a confused with the fake out one like yeah they teach her the fake out and then the dude gets run over and she can't break up she had a bit because like I was thinking of the old guy as well we've had like a heart attack or something whether I did not and then he had a stroke and then when he's in the wheelchair and she's trying to say sometimes people grow apart and he's like struggling to pay attention because he's just like oh man what it like yeah Jerry's not hackneyed but like he also had Larry David yeah and what I was gonna say is it gets more dated as it goes on yeah yeah definitely better that like like which as sorry as time goes on which you know it can't it can't be helped yeah it's certainly like there are other shows who have come and done the whole you know shows about nothing and like the barriers they're able to push like but at the same time I feel like this could go into a such a huge topic of shows are trying to do that these days but it ended up too many yeah and they end up just being the so milk toast or just completely lose sight of what they were trying to sort of parody in the first place because they're just so desperately trying to be that parody they're like wait what are we doing again yeah yeah yeah anyway yeah you can see them take a double take sometimes yeah yeah yeah what did you want to talk about all right welcome everybody this is the conversation in your horizon you gotta call it that I don't want to walk now that feels like it's just like that's that's more Joe Rogan experience than the Joe Rogan experience in terms of a podcast title man but um yeah there's um so yeah I wanted to have a conversation with my with my housemate Brandon here because we there was a bit of contention around a certain topic that we got into a little bit ages ago but I think like always I caught you on your way out and held you up from something so um I wanted to go a bit more into depth is really funny because when we're done with this like I have to my next thing always um yeah so um the setup I've got here sorry if the audio quality does dip at any point we're going to be apologizing for again a free podcast yes you ungratefuls I'm gonna cut that out if you're ungrateful if you you're not right oh yeah but you will be when you get to this point so yeah this is gonna be pretty free flowing sorry if the audio quality does dip like I said we're gonna keep it because this thing you might hear some background stuff I think I've got the gain and everything down to a certain point but yeah there are other people in the house why are you explaining the technicals I was just a bit of disclaimers like at the start of my don't need the only disclaimer should be is if this podcast has yeah small pieces and might be a choking hazard to those under four years old that's a disclaimer something I thought about when I was making the Toy Story 4 review it's got a few disclaimers there I my very first like title screen says that there will be cringe in this video but I also again it's just it's projecting a subjective measure and requiring people to adhere to yeah everyone has their own cringe scale and and and being like oh that's cringe like all that does is then you're telling people you have to agree with me here that it's bad all you end up doing is saying in in the end that's that's just purely a negative spiral you just end up hating everything and turning into a critic Wow that was your face that was like you know what's that sort of like it's just like a burn you didn't expect was gonna be a burn because they gave a little story at the start of it I've only got the one video am I really critic yet that's the yeah we're gonna say that for the end you took that you took the first step you know yeah yeah I am now I am was evolving yeah yeah was Neil Armstrong yeah an astronaut before he went into space or was it as soon as he signed up to the program good point actually because it's like what if you sign up and you don't end up going it's like I'm still an astronaut the minute you started critiquing critic what's the truth as soon as you're born that's what I kind of like I kind of like the idea this is like professional critic is just somebody gets paid for I kind of get that mindset from an old house mate of mine who used to say you know I never did any I never sorry I I'd never done that thing until I had done that thing and it doesn't it doesn't matter how badly you know you could say I never painted portraits until I painted that portrait it's like yeah it's a stick figure but it's still a portrait if you intended it to be a portrait it doesn't mean it doesn't mean it's good yeah oh yeah that's the that's the point that always because people seem to think it's just like if you say oh this movie is bad you sort of objectively give you qualifiers all that sort of jazz that I think you're saying it doesn't count as art or a film it's like a lot of people say with the Martin school says he think when I think he was trying to you know like he was saying sorry I'll reel it back a bit because like what I said what it was gonna say is about just because you criticize it it's still that thing of course that that's never yeah that should never ever be a point of attention it's like bad movies still a movie like I still they satisfy the requirements to make a film yeah yeah it's definitely never something I was like even no matter how much I don't like something that's you know like whatever song what's something that everybody loves shape of water I haven't seen it apparently apparently it's good yeah I haven't seen it either that's like I'm kind of saying is that that's the only reason I picked it because I was it popped into my head it's like I haven't seen this you could rag on that yeah like it's one of my favorite things to do it's like take it like take a pointless stand on something I haven't seen and then when the opposite party is like what how could you believe this is like I haven't actually seen I haven't consumed this thing just yeah for a moment just make people believe that I think a certain thing and then they're like so that's if you've been doing with me the entire time I do it with you often speaking of um yeah so thank you for coming to your house today yeah I wanted to have a that only would have been better if you had I said thank you for coming to your couch and your couch yeah you have to get out of your bedroom walk a couple feet to get here so I just want you to appreciate that I had a like a meeting for my team here once years ago and they were like they were all here and I was still in bed and so they just started without me I got up then went now to shower and came out and they're like you are an hour late to your own meeting that you called in your house and I was like yeah who's hungry oh man yeah that was I really like that intro thank you I wanted to speak all for it and then get into it ask you questions ask you questions so yeah that was I think we already did the intro which was just explain who each of us is and just talk shit um I don't think we really like yeah you're Brendan I'm Jordan um we're doing real names oh I mean you don't have a nickname so it's only fair yeah I think have you ever had a nickname I was porker in high school man that's just that's that's rude yeah that's mean um yeah I think okay we're like yeah it's fine it's fine I just I just wanted to trip you up on that yeah yeah yeah just thought I'd rent you want me to do rail this is as much as possible I'm a living spanner and all I see are gears to throw myself into we want to have a look at this topic of creation versus criticism because I you and I got into it a bit like a while ago I think I might have mentioned earlier and I think there's a lot that could be said about this and yeah we can discuss it today but before we do I was thinking out to our sponsors oh yes Roosevelt and Ratatouille those are our sponsors those are the two quotes I found yeah so yeah this whole idea of like you know creation versus criticism which is like I'm going to do the terms first I think I think I'm going to spend more explaining this just defines criticism so basically I added some points on to like try to be like impartial about it like in terms of what creation and criticism are based off of like just the google definitions but what I went with is like so like google defines creation as the act or process of bringing something into existence it didn't exist before you make made it in an artistic context it's creating a piece i.e music photography film sculpture artwork that is an expression of the creator's talent skill and observations is that pretty yeah I mean I don't know what to do with that yeah efficient so that's that's one side of the coin the other side is criticism the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes which is like why I put that's negative connotations because I think for the purpose of this discussion it would help to make it like criticism is more of a neutral point so I wrote like I like that you think that that's a neutral that that that definition definitely is like one side there because like criticism generally you do like you know constructive criticism rarely ever means you're speaking constructively very positively fault is synonymous with failure so yeah perceived failings perceived is as in like perception so that that's a subjective measure yeah it's what it's what the the you know the subjective experience to something it's based on the it seems as being failing in the perception well it's just like if the human perceives like on a piece of paper or we're already getting into it like on a piece of paper that say they're a math teacher and or maths sorry remember what country we're in there's just say a student like shows their workings and like but you do the same workings and like how you proceeded how you provable methods is not the same thing though yeah like it's it comes down to just like I feel like like with my Toy Story review there was like sort of I was able to qualify the reasons why something was inconsistent because like that's something that we could go to if you want to talk about my review that's fine it is it is lengthy I've been too busy creating oh and that's where we'll get into it so yeah creation versus criticism rendered falls on the side of creation is better than what I think to be as I don't think criticism is better than I mean I I do not deny the fact that like you have to create criticism right there is there is an element you know of creative flair in it yeah but it's it's it's the minor part I suppose and that's like something we'll definitely speak about I don't based on how our discussions usually go I don't think we're going to reach like a solid conclusion I think it's just gonna be fun to talk to you it's not for us it's for the dear listener to agonize with when they go to bed tonight after listening to this exactly you listening right now you get to decide just turn it into an asmr debate and so what but yeah we could basically just get into it from that point of um yeah because like your point is like yeah creation over criticism and I'm more I basically see it's like I couldn't have you couldn't have criticism without creation I when we talked about it I made that point and I believe that you can't have creation without criticism of some sort of some because that's why I'm I define the term first because I view it as more neutral sort of just what we say about perception and realizing something coming to realize sorry I'm gonna define basically like our key arguments first or at least like sort of our viewpoint on it so yeah I've already defined yours mine is go through them yeah of course but like what mine is is like I think it is a chicken and the egg situation where it's like which one's more valuable it's case by case and both of them require the other to some extent yeah but um yeah we could from there finally we could get into the I'm not like I'm not saying you can't grow and improve oh yeah that's yeah that requires yeah like yeah criticism but it's not a chicken and an egg yeah because the creation had to come before criticism but that's the thing like I think something is created because there is a criticism is responsive criticism but that's the thing that's just like so response means like like means something followed on from something previous yeah but that's the I'm going to give you sort of like hypotheticals to sort of basically it is responding as opposed to responding but that's the thing it's just like think about when like you created like if somebody creates paints or some like like some tool to do like these yeah yeah creating tools to create um what my point of that was going to be more about just even in that context you think about every time you're creating something there is some sort of acknowledgement to what's come before or what you perceive and what you want to make there's some like I know I get what you're saying I would count of this right go back to um early peoples anywhere in the world what are they going to do they're going to reflect their natural environment generally they're drawing their people hunting bison or um you know wrestling crocodiles whatever whatever whatever they did in their day to day that's what they slapped up on the wall and yeah as as the as the complexity of societies grew the representations of those complexities grew also yeah but why did they do that why did they want to immortalize that I think it comes down to a fundamental thing in um humanity and it goes to this point from sapiens which is terrible that I'm bringing this up because I haven't read sapiens but it's um the idea that um a bunch of anthropologists have apparently gone over where they discuss how the reason that homo sapiens won out against homo neanderthalus and other um other you know sapient you know early humans was because we had the communicative ability to express complex ideas more effectively to one another so sharing abstract concepts was something that we were more capable of because certain regions of our brain were more developed than comparable regions in comparable early humans as a consequence we it's essentially you know you can you can outthink muscles you know work smarter not harder um and yeah so cop that neanderthals it and I suppose it's um it was one of the tools by which they were communicating ideas you know we'll get together in a group like this and then we chase the bison towards cliff and then they're trapped and then we spear them to death and we get dinner you know yeah that's that that's that that's a tool for it but then you're like oh I've done that I want to make this more interesting I want to make the people more accurate I'm gonna put horns on the bison now because the bison have horns you know whatever the bison might look like you know depends but you know you you want to elaborate you know and I think it's it's an inherent yearning to elaborate in terms of like actual creation yeah I get that but that's the thing like I think that in and of itself like if we're using criticism as a neutral term like it can't be neutral it has to respond no it has to respond I'm saying criticism whether it's like positive or negative oh yeah yeah I'm not talking about the emotions I'm talking about like in terms of its activity it can't be neutral yeah definitely like because otherwise it's just it's it's I suppose it's commentary with not with that basis but it's it's commentary born of nothing it's just like you know ice cream is cold but you know if ice cream wasn't a thing it would just be like making comment yeah on the on the air yeah I I get that sorry I'm trying to like sort of basically what I'm saying is like when you create something it is like sort of an appraisal or some sort of you know you're trying to improve like what you said about elaboration the very fact that you are trying to elaborate or um appraise like and represent that in something that you're creating being like you know the little stick figure drawing it's because like it's just like this is representative of something that I'm trying to express in a way that some sort of because that's what like the neutrality thing of it comes down to it could be positive or negative because like I think in the idea of the yeah in the idea of the elaboration right the the um the desire is shared to elaborate effectively or to have effective elaboration um in both creation and criticism yeah and anyone who's made anything at any point in their life which is all of us even if we don't you know like even if you work a you know paper shuffling desk monkey job uh in a bank or something which I've done that or you live a bohemian lifestyle and you know you're like oh I'm a poet and I live off the fees I get from submitting to magazines which I've done that also um the the the desire is the same you know for effective elaboration yeah and what it amounts to is that in creation you want to more effectively create those elaborations whereas the criticism is born of the insecurity that the elaboration was not effective enough in what was created essentially where that's that's that's what that's what I would see it as being born from yeah yeah basically critics don't like their own making and I just hit them cable on the microphone that's fine it adds a little bit of texture I'll just keep shaking it then it's like and to finalize my point um um yeah I just I don't really know where to go on from there other than I just like we can wrap this up then yeah yeah thank you for coming everyone but um just in terms of see each one whether it's creation or criticism just involves one of involves the other to some regard because like even if you do it to yourself yeah yeah that's like yeah yeah yeah yeah that's that's what I was trying to get at yeah within within one person you know like such a yeah to trot out a cliche yeah you your own worst critic yeah um it's it's I don't necessarily agree well it's like you are your own worst critic that's like you could be a worse critic if you are not if you are sometimes more ahead at all not as critical in some regards or it could be the opposite if you are too critical yeah that's the point of it I think is it's trying to say you're being overly critical of yourself it doesn't do you any favors I mean I agree with that yeah yeah definitely there's like at some point it is if you do too much absolutely but it's like it's extremely the other way moderation is kind of the key I think it's because like any creatives I know like even like you know you do music right like or even with your review right you agonized over detailing and it's because of internal criticism every creative I know has that internal criticism I don't like critics because you don't need to pile on a creative most of them are gonna beat themselves up about it anyway they don't need some third party chuckle nut being like oh you didn't get the color palette right in this corner of your portrait go away that's a thing go away they're probably already agonizing over the fact that it's not quite the quite the right cadmium white or whatever no sorry cadmium yellow that's definitely one aspect of this and being like he doesn't know what he's talking about yeah because I don't paint that's a there was an element of that where I was thinking like when I made my review if there's gonna be because like that's kind of what like I think I cut it out of the review that I said I'm sorry if I mean I think I cut that the review but um I was trying to set up that whatever issues I found with the movie it was going to be more from incompetence rather than maliciousness because I don't want to assume the intent or people people who are creative often recognize when they are incompetent because it's it's like they will they will recognize a natural fault most of the I really disagree that there's like a lot of writers in Hollywood right now who just do not get like actually let's come back to that later because I want to read your quotes first you mentioned yes what I was going to do at the start of this holy shit there are two pieces of media that I think are pretty valuable for what combats this because I wanted to bring up these points and this is in no way an appeal to authority that I've chosen Roosevelt because like this is just like which one Theodore Roosevelt is like the man on the I forgot the title of it I basically if you if you read the quote I'll be able to tell you whether it was um FDR I can't even remember or or or TR the reason I bought the first time I was ever exposed to this um uh poem or like speech of the source I think it's an excerpt from somewhere is um when the last of us two came out there was a lot of like obviously a lot of negative criticisms pile on to that for good reason read your quote anyway Roosevelt one of them said it is not the critic who counts not the man who points out how strong the man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly who urns who come short again and again because there there is no effort without error and shortcoming but who does actually strive to do but who does actually strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms the great devotions who spends himself in a worthy cause who at the best knows in the end of in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat commonly referred to as the man in the arena that's yeah yeah yeah it is it is a part of us um of a speech you gave yeah yeah that was um so there was a game journalist who made this like slide little jab that like just made a tweet that's like video games are too long and then Troy Baker too long yeah I think he was he was he was shitposting kind of like Jason scry I think I was like I even like Shryer scry I haven't gone too much into his yeah I'm not gonna lie I kind of agree with that like have you played Tetris which just doesn't end it's like it's like it's as long as you make it I don't know Tony Hawk's two minutes unless you go free play um but yeah the two long things I thought was like I think that was just a shitpost he just wanted to get some clicks and reactions out of that yeah so I don't know if we'll dive into yeah so that's like he wanted the reaction to get uh Troy Baker who did the voice acting of Joel and the last of us too shared a screenshot of that and I was upset with that as a response because it doesn't feel like a sort of appeal to authority to say it's just like oh look what Roosevelt said you're wrong journalist so I just um but the actual context of that discussion whether like I do not care who is right between those two because like it wasn't really a substantive point to jump off from games are too long so I was like games are too long to a shitpost it seems like uh Troy Baker got upset like arguing with a meme yeah pretty much yeah yeah uh man read your other court yes well I don't think I've heard that other one the the one that I just showed you no I mean you told me what you told me before we started you told me what it's from but I um I read it and then I'll tell you this afterwards make you upset uh so this is from Ratatouille I haven't seen it you haven't seen Ratatouille no it is I'm really not interested in top top five picks up I'm really not interested all right all right I don't enjoy your life then I will say like that movie holy crap whether they make food just I mean food is great already but like well you're watching it in an animation like that and I just presented oh anyway you can taste that movie that's what I'm saying the one with the rats talk about Ratatouille anyway yeah um yeah so this is at the end of the movie I guess I can give you the context of it the spoilers should read it spoilers for Ratatouille so there's a big critic uh in the film who comes to this restaurant that he gave a really bad review of that let it to go downhill and he's coming back because there's this new hot shot on the town who people find it is the son of the one who was like hot shit until he got that bad review so like yeah he he makes it big like everyone that kind of knows who he was who he is and like so that's what makes this critic come back and be like oh you're trying to come back are you and it's just like so he's gonna come in and taste the food and then what happens is like so the the hot shot is kind of a fraud read the quote all you're doing is telling the movie's story read the quote anyway yada yada yada it turns out he proves the mean old critic wrong and he's like oh actually read the quote I'll give you the context for it anyway you didn't give context for Roosevelt's speech I don't care about Roosevelt I care about Ratatouille exactly oh I'm trying to be neutral and then your bias presents immediately where you didn't look up the the context for that speech as opposed to oh man Ratatouille defending a critic um read your quote read your quote read your quote I disagree with this as well that's what I'm saying anyway I just have more context of it that's why I want to yeah so both of them are pretty substantial anyway the question for Ratatouille finally after like however many minutes we talked we talked about the quote in many ways the work of a critic is easy we risk very little yet to enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment we thrive on negative criticism which is fun to write and to read but the bitter truth we critics must face is that in the grand scheme of things the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so but there are times when a critic truly risks something and that is in the discovery and defense of the new and there's more to the quote but that's more going into the um uh it doesn't expand on that first part it's more just yeah that's that's that's not a bad um I think summary criticism recognizing too that more people are going to pay attention to the source than they are to the critique yes like how many people actually read the film reviews in the age yeah probably more so than I feel like I've seen more like think about it there's going to be because they they'll pay for this right like publicists will pay for this there's going to be more people who will read Eat Pray Love than they will read the age's you know um life column review of Eat Pray Love yeah yeah absolutely that's like you know all people are going to see the movie than actually see the review but um in terms of the substantive stuff I just I genuinely think it's kind of like I'd say there was more like literal hard work put into like production on films like The Rise of Skywalker um but in terms of the actual writing and the execution the passion put into exploring why like exploring why is what all I'll say because like one film is trying to explore why the review is trying to explore why and they're different why as you see but um so I think I've seen more thorough elaborate uh explanations as to why The Rise of Skywalker doesn't work from a writing standpoint uh compared to like the movie itself explaining why these things came to be from uh the previous works I mean it's not like yeah obviously Force Awakens and The Last Jedi didn't do a great job of that at all as well but um yeah the reviews I've seen do a better job of explaining why it doesn't work than the movie trying to explain why it does work and how things come to the end of it you know what I mean yeah um see the thing is you can't see how much effort went into the people behind the scenes though so I think if they if they heard that sort of criticism being leveled at at their work right and I don't mean that the the end product I mean the total sum of their efforts you could end up yeah you could end up hurting someone I absolutely like you know like in a in a song right in your band how much of your individual work ends up writing out into the end product of any given piece you produce right you might have a dominant say but it's not going to be all of it I mean that's part of working in it's any you know body of community of work you know it goes back to the homo sapien thing you have to elaborate the complex idea through shared medium you know language to then produce a separate secondary shared medium in this case music yeah and you're doing it in a community it's it requires that that to and fro but you know you're even in a piece where they go you know go just like go hammer and tongs they're still going to come back and they're going to offer critique and their input is going to reshape what you might have started and they're not putting down your work but there is a huge body of work behind it but not all of that body of work goes into the end product yeah definitely that's like you know even if it's a more literal sense of like cut scenes but uh yeah but that doesn't so what I'm saying is like you know the the team of riders behind Rise of Skywalker may have I have to say may have because I have no idea you probably have a better idea than what I do oh there's like reports and rumors of like reports and rumors right and that's all we have to go off we have to go off we call them secondhand accounts but really they're probably like fourth and fifth you know innuendo is you know is a business and business is booming but they definitely would have put in a buttload of hours into writing those scripts whether they were good or bad they've put in a buttload of hours definitely put in what they felt might have been most appropriate and so they there's probably a lot of feeling in it for them they can't control like and we've all seen it we've all heard about it again you know reports and rumors I'll see the movie it's bad no no no but like in any movie where oh the studio got in the way or the director ruined a good script read the original script read the script after the director's edits you know there's a lot of people who make those comparisons as well it's a similar thing so the people behind the scenes didn't necessarily do a bad job just because the end product was bad oh yeah I would never I would definitely not disappear it's like you know you eat a bad steak at a restaurant you're not going to blame the poor butcher for cutting cutting bad meat or the farmer for growing you know rubbish cow it's what the chef did with it and like but it was it just the chef or was it the farmer who it's it's a series of potential errors along the way of any chain yeah and you could find out where that sauce does come from that's the thing it's just like I couldn't speculate on like why the film is as bad as it is but like who the fault is of that but that's like it comes down to the writing for me because I think there's like all the elements outside of but then someone chose to film that right yeah and it's not like they chose to take it from page to screen so there's there's a series there's that there is a chain of events and people are choosing to take it from page to screen and their input even if it's purely mechanical or is sorry is intended to if the process was defined you know in a purely sort of Ford you know Ford factory kind of way you know in a Taylorist fashion where it's broken down into the smallest possible repeatable component you know it's it's it's still going to have a variance to it because no two people are the same the individual has a set of different experiences and this comes down even to things like education of that so your education informs just your skill set and not just like your skill level within that skill set but the manner in which right the the mannerisms the the the slight eccentricities that you before that you you have in performing any given task yeah that's going to be reflected in the product even if you're trying to do the same thing over and over and over again it's kind of just recognizing where it does interfere with the other aspect though like in the Lord of the Rings like I'm not like I'm not trying to argue the inconsistency what I'm trying to say is like that inconsistency you know would have been achieved through a series of monumental efforts to do something good and errors in judgment right and this is assuming you know everyone had the best intentions absolutely yeah I'll never want to like sort of assume the intentions I don't think anyone would want to ruin Star Wars yeah particularly because like anyone grow out maybe someone maybe there's probably someone being like me and I would just love to go back in time and make a bad Star Wars Ryan Johnson yeah now I'm up all uh I think that's like you explored like a lot of interesting aspects all I was gonna say is like kind of like where we look at the the car in the background of the Lord of the Rings scene that was an accident yeah that was a different thing it's an issue though it does take out of the only if you notice it only if you know most people don't notice it and no no most people don't notice it you've really got to look well it's like you gotta remember too like Lord of the Rings came out on VHS oh some of it did like to that like that would have still be when it was in the it was it was in the tail end of the transition period but it was on VHS so people are watching it in VHS or early DVD quality right then you still see the car in the background you can but again it's not what you're looking at because the way the shots framed you're looking at Sam and Frodo walking through that field and that's what most people focus on a couple of people picked it up and it became this whole like did you see the thing like yeah which which happens in like every movie where there is an error like that to point out people yeah but it's not an intentional error that doesn't matter if it was intentional or not all right well the next time you trip over i'm gonna be like man you're a bad human way to bad walk that's a bit of a straw man i never said you're a bad it's not it's the same thing it was it was unintentional just because it is an error i'm not saying that it's like fuck them how could they possibly i can do that this bastard i'm saying that it's just like oh it was an oversight it doesn't attract for the writing quality but it does detract from the scene whether or not you notice it if you like if someone were to go through it with a with a broad like what about when what about when i'll finish my point yeah sorry is um just the broad overview of the entire composition of the scene if like you if you go back to and like analyze it or if you were casually viewing and you noticed it um or even if you didn't notice it it just like if you actually do sit down and find tooth comb uh through like the issues that you see on the screen it's like oh yeah that's not canon within that world that high and die or whatever the type of guy was that hatchback is not a part of that world it's like there is no unless like you want to try to canonize a thing look at you imagine it's like sarons i was like ah sarons high under but um it's still it's like i wouldn't drive a high no no tesla to be fair i think like elrond would drive a tesla as well it's just like no no no elrond elrond would drive he'd drive a gt he'd drive like a classic gt okay yeah perfect this is like that was just it's like disclaimer to all tesla owners i do not think you're a bad person because you had tesla i just think bad people drive tesla you know it's all tesla drivers not all tesla drivers are trying to take over a fantasy fantasy universe what i'm trying to say is all people trying to take over a fantasy universe drive teslas it's like that's the thing that's like this this is pretty substantively enjoyable sort of like dare i say sort of not intellectually stimulating but possibly just like really entertaining discussion and that's come from that and like that doesn't make it a bad thing in that context in that context i want to compare it to another error that because they filmed those like those three films were shot as one continuous shoot over the course of three and a bit years or fuck yeah was it three and a half years right then that's the very impressive feat to do that in itself absolutely but my point is in two towers vego mortensen kicks that helmet he broke his toe right there's a popular bit of trivia it's memed to the you know to the wall and back like it's it's it's a similar sort of thing people point to the screen and they go you can't see this error but everyone knows it's there now he wasn't meant to break his toe kick in that helmet he's trying to say peter jackson's like right need you to kick this helmet when you do it break your toe it's like that's the kind of shredding his toe in that case because the film never liked it it tells us that the film does it the film doesn't his scream tells us something is very wrong right and he used that scream right to act that out he worked with the error right yeah he couldn't not recognize it everyone else who filmed it though and was acting around him everything else going on around him carried on as if that error wasn't there same as with the car the only difference was the only difference was the only person aware of the car driving down that road was the driver who wasn't aware that they were shooting a film that was fireman maggot doing donuts in the corner but um no what I was like that's the thing the toe breaking the scream that comes after it canonizes itself within the frustration of thinking that the hobbits are dead so there's justification for that there is no justification for the car other than saying it's a error no but what i'm saying i'm talking about his broken toe yes yes it is you're trying to say like bigger mottonson doesn't have any toes it's that's a bit of a trivia but okay but it's not it's we can't see it bigger mottonson didn't have his toes on for filming lord of the rings that that toe is only there in the context of it's just like it's like his feet when an actor has context of the kicking shroding his toe it was it's only you don't know if the toe is there until you kick the helmet or you don't he wore his like i think it was an ice hockey or footy jersey underneath the chain mail so like have you worn chain mail yeah it's cold yeah they were in new zealand of course the windshield factor on chain mail like to clarify for anyone who does listen to this i have worn armor like that i've worn chain mail just on my skin in wind right even in summer here's some weird fetishes let's not even explain it because now that i've said let's not even explain it they're gonna go they're gonna go well it's not a fetish thing so what is it yeah secretly a bigger mottonson i just go out and break my toe on helmets but some i'm sorry i i derailed your point no no no like but that's my point like the the toe bear breaking by him kicking the helmet is an error but it's not in the film other than it is in the film the actual we don't see the toe that was the cut that was the cut they used yes yeah i think they'd done like a couple of cuts before that sorry a couple of takes before that yeah but the take they used that made the final cut is the one where he broke his toe because it was the third or the fourth one it doesn't break the film even if he did break his toe in that cut if in the canon of the film though if he did actually i don't think the car breaks the film and i say this is someone who who i i rewatch i rewatch those films at it's never intentional but every time i think about i'm like man i watch rewatch those films at least once a year yeah it's it's absurd like you you love something that much you're just like man i can't stop coming back to this it's definitely one of those things like every time i watch it it's just like you know it's like my i remember my grandparents had the it was the theatrical dvd so i'm sorry but i was like we all we all only had the theatrical release for a while so yeah yeah the yeah that's it's an interesting thought because i never again like most people i didn't notice the car until someone pointed it out to me same as we go mortensen's toe but the toe it's like even if you broke it within i i get what you're saying yeah you can't see it but what i'm saying is this it's still happened yes even if he's turned to legless i said it's still my toe leg and i it's still happened and both of them for most people in the case of the toe all people it has to be pointed out to them right for most people both errors have to be pointed out to them but cars do not exist within the lord of the rings i'm not saying they do i'm not saying that you're saying that i'm just pointing out like the reason why broken toes can happen in lord of the rings and but while you're you're trying to post fact canonize an error and decanonize another error because they can be justified by but neither of them were intended and that's what i'm getting at that doesn't matter in your judgment it's just like in your judgment for me yeah the car's there but doesn't matter for my enjoyment it doesn't matter for my enjoyment that that car's there i still love that scene because it is just like remember what mr bilba would say i still love that seed but like it is oh yep that's an error although pastor it's a nitpick in regards to it doesn't have you seen have you seen any of the other errors though in those films oh there is like there are tons and tons there's a thing where but you know something i don't see them and it's not because i'm like i've got to block it out i genuinely do not notice because the way it is framed the way it is made because peter jackson and the whole crew a bunch of professionals who are very practiced at their craft were able to make it such that the focus is not on the road in the background in the distance where this car is kind of visible it's still like yeah i'm not saying it's not there what i'm saying is most people don't notice it until it's pointed out to them same as the fucking toe right you have to have it pointed out to you and even then a huge majority of people will go uh and move on because that's that's that's the meme i'm still that's the meme at the moment with the toe thing right like you know um don't tell me about the broken or don't tell me pointless trivia about yes i get it he broke his toe right like that's that's the meme that's kicking around yeah yeah um yeah now we've just like put a time capsule on this podcast yeah it's not gonna be timeless but like that's the meme that's kicking around now like yeah it's like hey can we watch lord of the rings two towers sure but don't tell me any stupid trivia yeah and then like yo your face is bulging out like we're trying not to say it i said we've definitely gone off a little bit off topic but i still think we could kind of uh make this uh relevant but that's what i'm saying like it it it is that what you're making there is critique right yeah and i i uh i i think it's i think it's a pointless critique to make as much as i think a lot of critique is absolutely pointless but uh the reason i it's just like the creation of what does it what does it achieve to point that car out it does say oh it's an error it could have seen could have been even better if it wasn't there legitimately objectively it could have been better okay so you are saying that for you no not for me the scene itself would have been better because it would have canonized itself within within the objective context of nice itself yeah but i say like it's if it wasn't you don't go to the theater do you know you've never really seen a stage production i've been in stage productions but like have you like seen like proper theater yeah i've been to like melt uh yeah yeah and and you've seen like local theater as well yeah like school theater productions and stuff theater like um indy sort of whatever does it bother you that like if you're not in the front row like you can see all the tops of those heads that aren't in the play um you can see the you can see the curtain generally i like to be in whether it's like the movie theater or the theater it i'd like to be in the center like in yeah the middle like what is sort of that's what that's where everybody wants to be yeah yeah you don't have to explain i think everybody who listened to this go yeah that's the best spot yeah yeah unless like you know there's people with like eyes and stuff need to sit further or closer yes those fuckers with eyes i'm gonna go watch a movie but i better leave my eyes at home um yeah that's kind of just that's down to how you viewed it that's that's not that's no one's in the film one is your viewership of it but that car is still in the film no matter how you viewed it so it's okay for one but not for the other i mean it's just like how you viewed it yes well i'm still and how you how you view it is you go error that's like pointing out a type i want a menu instead of enjoying the food yes it's just like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's legitimate that's the thing that's like this isn't a major error because the lord of the rings films are like only a step down from perfect like that's why i bring up the car thing because they could have been perfection but then they're the this is and this is this is the difference right this is the difference you will never appreciate that theater rusevelt um speech because for whatever reason and this is in you and you try to you try to say that it's objective but it's not because what you're saying i was objectively in the film anyway sorry go on that's not that's not what i'm that's not what i'm saying and that's not what you said before you said it objectively is an error and it object is objectively you said objectively detracts from that scene no it doesn't with the detracts of what it's like trying to try doesn't it detract from your enjoyment of your appreciation a sense it detracts from your appreciation no it doesn't i love that scene even if the car wasn't there maybe my appreciation who knows you wouldn't be talking five bucks says you wouldn't even be talking about that scene if the car hadn't been in it it's like because i'm bringing it up as an example now where it's an error like the toe i guarantee you because the toe is not an error i'm sorry package that was like i get what you're trying to make that point us as us as like young white men we wouldn't talk about a scene about a guy grieving over sorry young white men who grew up in the anglosphere wouldn't really talk about a scene you know where a grown man is grieving over the loss of his you know grown friends um because feelings are soft jeez that's quite a statement i don't literally mean you and i i mean you went like the somebody's crying over the death of someone they care sorry am i i don't want to straw man you like what's like no no yeah no no what i'm what i'm trying to say is guys will not talk about feelings it's a general as i'm making a generalization no not objective generally right and i think that's what you need to start saying instead of objectively you need to start saying generally okay uh woody's character is generally out of character in toy story four yeah because there's probably points where he's bang on even even even if it is even if it is even if it is mostly off it is so unlikely that it is all wrong i mean yeah but only on a superficial level that's the thing it's just like it's like the character is breathing that's just like what woody did in like you know the previous film or that's just like what is he breathing let's go down motion they do have that in toy story i don't know if we should get into this no no no no not in it's not in i mean i mean i've watched the original toy story more than most but like is that in let's know that's not in okay it's not into it like they do like they go and they like they replicate the motion but when they're just standing there they don't it's like if you if you ask them it's like why do you do that you don't need to do that yeah but like their chest isn't rising and falling with it it is in um so in toy story three uh there's the whole like the dog is really old and woody's like alright buster the dog yeah the dog is a dog though that's not where i'm talking i'm talking about the toys chest that's what i was asking that's what i'm that's what i'm let me finish so the the dog falls onto woody and woody's like buster no and he's like trying to get the dog off of him and then he gets the dog off and then he's like yeah okay all right i get what you're saying yeah so like i mean but they were doing that for a gag right and also even if you didn't even if you didn't have lungs if you had no requirement to breathe i'm sure it would still be uncomfortable to have something that's five times your size just suddenly land on you i suppose that's if we were to ask the toys like why do you do that i'm like i don't know we we can't breathe but we just see the other it's a reflex like like because you also you think about it right like it's um it's the kind of um you know made in x's image kind of thing right like people are made in god's image and the toys what the who's image was that well woody is literally made in like humans image yeah right so at least like that's what we can speculate sorry did you cut that off because that's we still don't have any explanation of how the toys are alive yeah why are they alive like it doesn't matter but the point is is that even if they weren't alive what like we make ken and barbie dolls to look like people but they're not people right the same goes for woody he's not a person he is a toy like he tries to tell buzz you are a toy you're not the real buzz like you you are a child's play thing like that whole thing right by that logic it shouldn't hurt when they punch each other because they don't have a nervous system that's yeah exactly it's like i'm only thinking about this now what i'm trying to say is is it's a reflex and that reflex is obviously derived from them being reflective of us yeah so that that's a that's a human reflex you got punched in the face you're gonna go my face would you say it's a sort of criticism or appraisal of something else no i think it's i try to get back on top i like i like i think it's not something that was designed to ever have an explanation because i i'd i'd i'd bet the house that that you could bet the house you know that expression you know you could bet the house that though the the character design for them had absolutely nothing to do with whether they know they can or can't breathe because of course you don't think about your own breathing they're not going to think about they're not breathing what you just said is the explanation and what i could say is that like maybe they do have to breathe it's like either or i've never seen them do that every time they are still they just go back anyway i'm alive again so that's like who knows like if there's a lot of unexplained stuff but like it's kind of if this was a horror movie it would be they would emphasize how scary i love all those i love all those recuts on youtube like toy story as a horror monster zinc as a horror movie which also you didn't need to do that for monster zinc because there's parts of monster zinc that are genuinely terrifying yeah but i think they do a better job that's i think the world building i think is better explained in monster zinc in toy story it's not explained but doesn't necessarily break anything it doesn't need in toy story it doesn't need to be because it's kind of that that world you know it's either our world or a close close analog simulacrum or alternate universe whatever you prefer of our world right yeah it's it's like monster zinc is connected to the the the pixar world right like it's it's it's in the pixar universe and it's connected to the toy story world because there's a bunch of toys in booze room that are you know that like that callback whether it's like that maybe they're parallel right well i think i think it started as as a superficial callback but then because the pixar thing was gaining provenance as the internet was gaining prominence i think that they responded to people responding to those superficial like oh look there's an easter egg right a visual easter egg that wasn't like buried because easter eggs used to be like a buried thing for nerds to like go and hunt for then they they you know the pixar made it so kids could be like oh look you know she's got a nemo toy or you know yeah i think it was a very superficial girl like it's just like if we were to try to really narrow it down and say is that canon i would say it's just like purely i imagine they get an explanation they've got yeah they've gone out of their way not to explain whether it is canon or not but they continue to make things more elaborately calling into each other suggest suggesting suggesting deep into linkages right so the pixar the pixar universe like fan theory they they aren't saying it because it's better to not answer if you soon as you answer that question interest will die right so for that reason like they can use it as a marketing ploy and an engagement ploy but it also makes it much more interesting because it continues yeah that's like and it grows and those into linkages grow so you you you feed you feed the beast and you do yourself favours basically essentially that's something that i would like just because it's unexplained doesn't necessarily necessarily make it a bad thing sometimes it's better when there are things i agree with that hundred percent yeah like sometimes like under the skin have you ever seen that no it's just really good horror movie where like so basically these like i haven't seen it but i know the one you're talking about yeah it's about like these alien creatures that are sort of harvesting humans for some something we don't all we see is like a process a lie where it looks like human meat and you're like what are they using it for is it fuel do they eat it we don't know the fact that we don't know makes it scarier because you're just like what the hell are they doing yeah so like that doesn't need to be explained it's definitely not an error that it's not explained the unknown is something in in horror that has horror and toy story toy story is a horror but like the the unknown in horror is you know is there is their chief weapon you know it's yeah it's the it's the best tool in the in the toolbox for a reason because they know the unknown can be terrifying the thing is the unknown isn't just terrifying um because it's um oh sorry the unknown can be terrifying because it is unknown but chiefly what it is is it's interesting because the human brain is chiefly and uh an answer seeking and deriving machine i say deriving not producing but an answer seeking and deriving machine what's this put it together answer right if you can't answer it you are gonna get you're going to get a heightened emotional response yeah and that like it's it's interest but the emotion that is attached to that interest the interest is cognitive the emotion that follows is context yeah exactly blood makes it fear clouds rainbows and a plush fish makes it you know excitement yeah man we've gone up a tiny bit of time but i think like that was a pretty fun tangent to go but that was definitely yeah because what we're starting with is just like that's one example where we talk about like sort of the car and the tow braking where i think the acknowledgement of that and the explanation of why i again i'm still like family on the boat that like there is like in world stuff that it can explain the tow yeah because i'm like i forget the cars there yeah and i guarantee you most people who rewatch that scene forget the cars there like me it's happened to me before but um like that's the thing it's still in the scene but like wait i think we're going to go in circles and that's why i'm saying there the difference is the emotional response yeah uh the difference like the sort of your enjoyment is the emotional response but like it's still in the film like i know you probably don't want to like admit it but like remember so this is an old thing i've told you right you know which is you know if it sticks at your crawl when someone says it it's probably got a kernel of truth right right yeah your mom's gay it's like what yeah it's like you also you're like i mean you think you're baby like maybe my mom is gay no i i don't really i i think there are some instances where that could be the truth especially when it comes to criticism sorry right and you say you know it you know it doesn't impact your emotional enjoyment yeah i disagree no it's just like we like the scene just as much if you were to oh well maybe not just as much okay and that's what i'm getting at right like i still love that scene but there's nothing to do with the car in that regard it has everything to do with the car i absolutely love the hyperspace kamikaze at the last Jedi from a purely superficial standpoint so like it looks cool and tactically it's a great idea if it works with it i don't know if we should go down that route that right but like the the great let's not get into the military thing because like i know i know more than you right like a dunning kruger effect aside right like i think that's the problem here right you don't know spit about military stuff but i do it's not about the military stuff in this regard whether that's but that's my point like it doesn't work within style i agree i agree with your point like it's there is i think there is a question to be asked there for the creators when like it's never been tried before i agree like that's nonsense it's very far fetched that no one has tried that before if you are very very fair to it you could say the best thing to be is a contrivance but yeah it's a contrivance right i don't disagree that it's a bit of a contrivance because like it's like the whole you know never successfully navigating an asteroid field is never tell me the odds actually that's a good summary of creation versus criticism like you know the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field of 7 000 blah blah blah blah to one and then it's like never tell me the odds and then he navigates it anyway the creek like the critics like you know it can be bad for this reason and then Han Solo is like i'm gonna navigate the asteroid field in that instance the creator is you know never tell me the odds in that instance and that's what i was gonna say about the lord of the rigs thing uh it is more valuable that like that scene the variety the acting the composition of it is more more valuable that like to everything going on other than the very surface level nitpick of there if we took it out nothing would change that's that's kind of the thing where's like what what makes it a nitpick if you took it it it's a valid criticism yeah that but that and that's yeah that's what i'm getting at but it doesn't change anything whether or not it's yeah that's what i'm getting at which is the cup yeah because there are there are mostly now a lot of recent versions have it digitally removed oh really yeah yeah yeah it's the same as the stormtrooper with the bang in his head on the door they added a bog i love that like yeah so they like they've done because george lucas can't leave it alone but like he has to come back comes into his editing suite at skywalker reg and he's still recutting and tweaking and editing he's like help me and they're just like this is all i know but like yeah like they they've edited it out they've left it in they've added the bonk um it's just but like what's the context of like what does that the track from it's like that stormtrooper is clumsy but that's yeah like it doesn't matter it's not i would definitely wouldn't say that's an error with the film it was though because like he couldn't see in that hell have you worn those helmets no i haven't you can't see but it's still you've got two little tunnels you're like you know how your vision meets in the middle yeah you're in those stormtrooper helmets you i actually i'm probably gonna get a lot of hate from like anyone who is connected like 501st you know or or does cosplay but the helmet i wore was from someone um who was 501st and i i like my vision didn't meet in the middle so i couldn't see in front of my nose until it like you know like half a meter in front of my face or something half a meter is probably an exaggeration but at that point you could make i'm not surprised because like well you wouldn't have been able to see up and you just could it's still not maybe maybe it wasn't intentional but it doesn't but it doesn't take away from the fact like if you took it out would it take anything away and i've watched i'm still resilient to call it an epic because i still don't think it breaks i've i've no it doesn't i'm like yeah like people bump into stuff it happens yeah exactly you just kind of go but like with the car thing it's just like yeah it's an error but that's kind of that way so it's i think it's i think it's like i think it's it's a bit like diagetic and non-diagetic sound right um okay sorry i'm curious as to where you're going to go with that but you know like diagetic sound is like sound that's in universe the non-diagetic characters come here yeah it yeah non-diagetic is for the audience diagetic is for like the the medium right like it's it's it's a film term but yeah the the car thing is is a non-diagetic version of the storm troopers bumping his head and that's that's the diagetic version right if you took it out it wouldn't take anything away same as like if vigo mortensen never broke his toe kick in that helmet it wouldn't take anything away actually there's an argument to be made there because like yeah like he was obviously pain breaking his toe kick in the helmet it added to it yeah like i mean i think he i think he has said like he that that pain helped him like really scream i'm sure in that moment so maybe maybe i shouldn't compare it to the toe the car thing no you shouldn't because i'm still it's like i'll compare it to the storm troopers head though but even then there's like in universe stuff to explain the helmet there is no in universe stuff to explain the car well no because the helmet's got it's referenced in a bunch of different materials that the helmets have like a a kind of heads-up display like it's it's an advanced piece of equipment that they have on their head it's not just it's not just armor and a communications device it's got like breathing filters in case of like you know gas and biological attacks yeah yeah they can breathe in space for a short space of in space for a short space um they can breathe in space for a limited yeah for a limited you know number of minutes yeah uh you know it's it's advanced technology the same with the uh the eyes as well there's a bunch of targeting assisting stuff in there and a whole bunch of other ones yeah um but it could have been a rookie he could have been the first like maybe a cut out doesn't think you can make some explanation but that's yeah but that's what i'm saying like you can but you don't have to you don't have to only because like you because you don't have to focus on it you don't have like same as the car because like you could you could choose not to focus on any of i wouldn't have talked like i wouldn't i wouldn't have talked about this car ever again in my life if you or anyone else never mentioned it to me because i wouldn't think of it i would never have thought of it again that comes down to just like your recollection of what you're able to enjoy yeah it's your reaction but i think that's still in the film and i think this is the difference between you know being on the creation side and the criticism side you're on the create criticism side you're going to have more of an emotional reaction to error no for whatever reason and i think it's in the person no it's just like it not i don't think every person i don't think every person can be a critic well no for sure like every person can be critical but that's moment to moment stuff anyone could be a critic it just depends on your definition you're it's like like not everyone could be a professional musician musician yes it's like not everyone can be a professional critic and who knows if i'm doing a decent job or not to i think like i'm not i'm not trying to like rag i'm just saying like i'm saying in the context like how could how could you know do you know me the only way you could know is by trying and continuing to try and you'll you'll get as far as you can go same as anything you do it's just the validity of the poise where it's like that's okay so what i was going to say about the i think we'll wrap up i'm just i'm just trying to say i think there has to be a certain certain series of factors in the development of a person to become a critic as opposed to a creator right i'm not saying they can't do creative things or do critical things but to produce critique or produce to be critiqued requires certain factors and it is rare the person who creates and critiques equally professionally yeah no i definitely yeah i'm sorry and even if not professionally but um predominantly in their life you know like i'm not trying to say just because you don't get paid for your art or your criticism that it's not that yeah yeah no i i totally agree and there's i you're right in that i can't think of an example of someone who is equally known and proficient at both but um yeah i can think of it like a couple of historic examples but yeah like like andy warhol oh yeah famous you know famous famously bitchy man but then also has some of the most recognizable stuff you know yeah in the world um whether it's like good or not i think again this is like this is me guessing and i say guessing because no way i can critique like i'm not trying to say it's good or bad or that there's any errors what i'm trying to say is like his work is impactful and even when you look at it you know some of it can be really striking like the Campbell soup thing and the Marilyn Monroe one that he did like those are all striking um that and i think i think yeah it's like i i don't know if it yeah i don't know of a contemporary example yeah where you could say someone is both yeah i'm not saying that they don't exist they probably they probably is someone alive today yeah sure but uh yeah as far as like even like some of the youtube critics i know they put out work but they're mostly known for their youtube criticism yeah um so and so forth but um if we're gonna talk about that because that's why i wanted to wrap up from all the rings thing because i think that's the thing back to the point of creation versus criticism i think it is down to a case by case i was just trying to say i think the response demonstrates the difference like you said at the top you know like i'm on one side you're on the other and i think the response to error demonstrates the difference so at least immediately like if you're trying you know if you're trying to identify a critic show them this scene that was a good gray gray it out and then like tilt it to 45 degrees like oh i'm pretty happy with that rea i'm sure it's gonna hurt a lot of listeners is everyone does listen to this but i just want to say that i'm pretty proud of it but um the reason i want to wrap up on uh the point of the law of the rings thing is because like the case by case of i don't think it's necessarily binary that creation is better than criticism because i think there's like scenarios where a criticism is more valuable to something than the work like think about if i could be like even just to defy the terms of redrafting so the last Jedi was written on the first draft it was written on the first draft everything was written on the first i never did it before i did it the space between space the last Jedi was the movie was created with just working off the first draft but criticisms that i was like really it was but um uh the YouTube critic uh Bola who i gush about every hour then so i'm still getting over they worked with the first draft yeah they moved to the first draft can take a moment's silence for the package too i mean okay look i like i'll do that often enough because i'll i'll write a short poem yeah yeah but six lines of poetry does not a film make you cannot you cannot with a novel sized script you cannot work with the first draft that's the longest star wars movie as well would be a miracle if you could um i know it's not just those any film oh yeah i totally agree you should never even if it's like even if it was theoretical i have my best friend listens because like he's studying writing and like he writes like he is a writer and he is studying writing uh and has always objected to like how sometimes i'll just be like he's this poem and he's like how many times did you go over this i'm like what go over it you know i think you hear that he'd have a pink i'm sure these examples of just say something was written on the first draft and it was really good but as a general sort of yes if we're talking about it doesn't mean it's flawless not at all like i would i would wait for that anybody who like even if you had the best writer ever and yeah like with the worst writer ever like polar opposites their first draft of the best writer ever even if the second person did like a hundred drafts yeah it was really working to if they tried their best but that hundred drops yeah that hundred drafts thing like you bring up a point like i think i mentioned this the first time we talked about it was you know the difference between criticism and critique i i distinguish between that like you need criticism if you're gonna rework something until it's finished right and that criticism can come from inside you have to be honest with yourself and it's a rare person who can be that honest with themselves yeah critique critique is critique is responding to the um the final product yeah um yeah to an extent if you're talking about like so critique is what a critic produces yeah a critique right they produce a critique yeah criticism is is elements of critical response to something yeah all right yeah definitely and then you you need a series of criticisms to make a critique you know you could provide a critique on drafts uh for sure yeah that's why they go to test audiences for films yeah yeah yeah and they do i feel like that's mostly just to be like getting the good reviews like these days test screenings aren't really to test the quality as much as they just like hey we're gonna fly you out to get to review our latest film would you like some champagne we'll pay for the plane tickets you want the meal anyway you see that 10 out of 10 score it's just like and then it's like oh we give it a 7 out of 10 it's like all right you're not invited to our future test readings of the other movies you really do that they just shut them out i'm not surprised you're just like from everything i've heard like that the very like i swear i've heard instances like maybe i'm talking at my ass but it just it reads so true to me that there would be i'm not i'm some see i like i i believe you because yeah i would not be surprised if like even if it's not like a direct sort of they like get a note saying hey change the reviews people are too ready to shut out like yeah i mean you look at like um sorry excuse me um there are games companies who uh flag negative reviews i know about this yeah i do know about that yeah i didn't know i didn't know about the like yeah so like you're coming to our next review part you can't sit with us i feel like negative reviews are more likely to get flagged for copyright violations than positive reviews based on what i've heard of like there's been releases of like video games like it um big algorithms tracks again i'm just trying to think i feel like i should have the examples to back it up so just because we've gotten onto this topic that i'm just i'm mentioning it now so everyone else verified for me please um i know i know about the games industry being bad oh yeah i feel like the games industry is easily the worst yeah in politics in australian politics anyway like you know we take an Aussie expression for it um and we call it you know feeding the chooks it's um yeah it's where you like give the little the little bites to the um to the to the favorable press so that way it gets echoed over and over um so it it's it's unsurprising that um the the film industry would do something like that but um i think that in it's in and of itself is born from a couple of uh very natural human drives which is to to avoid negative responses to your behavior whether you're creating or just you know you're producing a salad or whatever you're doing right like whatever whatever you're doing you're trying to avoid that negative response because if you've got a negative response in you know um uh pre-organized societies right you end up with um you and you end up with exclusion from the tribe yeah exactly and that's death yeah right if you if you can't be in an early tools low productive capacity society and you're excluded you would die because they're all hunting together to get enough meat for everybody and they're all picking enough fruit and berries and root vegetables for everybody to survive you know um uh even in you know early sort of like settled and harvesting communities you know so you want to avoid that because you you die and that's an evolved response you know because you you see this response in um in the great apes and things as well yeah that's actually uh to build on to that like i think that's an interesting lens to make because like whether that um sort of pattern of behavior or whether like that follow through does lead to good results because that's the thing it's just like like you know do you do you feel that before you put a song out like oh actually what about your what about your route your review how much do you agonized over that thing like oh i've got to get i've got to get this right i've got to get this perfect and then we were just talking about it before we started recording like you're saying oh yeah look there was some feedback and there were comments about a couple of things that you know i can work on but they were good i was glad to get it i i think it's good to have that attitude and response to it but what i'm saying is like you you agonized over it because you were scared that if you put it out and it's negative you feel like you're gonna lose in a modern society it's very unlike oh sorry in a modern in a modern advanced all right i shouldn't call Australia's economy you know an advanced economy we we're a primary producing nation right we make we make houses and we dig metals out of the ground and we export our wheat and meat like fuck yeah yeah it's the basics housing feeding building like it's like actually it sounds kind of badass fuck yeah um digging rocks eating grains living digging rocks and smoking fuck yeah but um that's um yeah like it yeah you agonized over that you know yeah um but you're not gonna die because we have a decent social safety net here of course not like that's that's yeah like like if if your boss saw that and was like man i can't believe you shit on Toy Story 4 like that you're fired could you imagine you should have read your fine print like there will be no bad words about the mouse like um and then yeah and then like like even if that happened you're not gonna die of course not um but i want to be anything you get a payout because we've got good industrial relations laws yeah just like union they said i didn't they fired you because you didn't like something that's like firing someone because they don't like the same ice cream as you didn't like the color of their hair and that's happened i'm sure there is there is there is cases of of that happening why are we having our unions but yeah but um what i was going to add onto that is like i've got two things because like what you said there i really about the the fear of rejection yeah like but also like what that like where that stems from like people avoiding i'll i'll address that point first because even even in even early late he could even argue like to late modern right not postmodern but late modern society so you know the good one not the post one yeah i don't know they didn't have they didn't have antibiotics eh you know natural selection oh but that's what i'm saying right like you you you had to survive on your own and then you would literally subject to the most natural of selection because it was um like look at things like the persecution of witches in europe right there's a whole there's a whole thing of study around and like and i've actually taken part in this study and there are there are very good arguments to be made that um in some instances it was partly intended to drive women out of certain aspects of certain societies generally like generally at a very local level it was things like you know acquiring wealth resources or influence they might have access to an example of which is um there was a wealthy i think she was a she might have been a widow um and she was like a noble lady in ireland uh and she got prosecuted twice but was found innocent both times and i think partly what helped her there is the fact she had resources so she could probably hire a decent lawyer to prove she wasn't a witch which privilege yeah witch privilege that's that's the kind of privilege i want to see which privilege which privilege yeah which privilege yeah it's like yeah the only privilege you should have is because of your supernatural powers genuinely this is like that seems like yeah yeah that's a privilege if you don't give me that promotion i'll curse you oh i'm sorry hey and and and you want to talk you want like you want to talk about that sort of thing like you know um witches weren't just ladies either but anyway it's like so this woman like um in her particular case it seemed like a couple of the local um big wigs were just trying to get hold of her assets yeah like her her land like the house in in which she lived her land and all that since her husband had died yeah um yeah that's very interesting i'm i wanted to there was something i wanted to sorry i'd be like that so i'm sorry and if it had been successful and they'd taken all their land and stuff even if she had have just been like cast out which there are examples where people were just driven away from a society even if they were fleeing or they were proactively driven away uh instead of execution execution where actually wasn't as common as what a lot of people think it did happen a lot but it wasn't as common as what people think there were all alternative punishments available yeah um often a lot of them like would recant and go through effective effectively torture not effectively actually torture while through you know recanting and um exorcisms and different things like that um but there were a lot of instances you know where they'd have to run away to the next town or something and maybe the rumors had already gotten to the next town that they were accused so they'd have to like live in the woods you know that that's that's a common story in in Germany or common enough story in Germany um and your ability to survive on your own the later and later time goes on you the skills aren't taught like if if I like if I kicked you out of the house and I let all of the world know that you are not to be let in anywhere it's like what how likely do you think it is you would survive like how long do you reckon you're going to last that's a that's a very extreme example what I was going I mean it is but that's the that's the extremity of being driven out and that's where that fear is driven from is because in in times before we were all of us living in you know even in mud huts you know we're still you know hunkering under caves and cliff ledges um where we're hunting together my rock huh don't let him in he broke you broke my favorite rock um that that meant death you would die yeah you couldn't gather enough resources something might kill you because things were bigger and deadlier than that's an interesting observation that sorry the one I wanted to add on to that point of just like you're talking about how people are so like against receiving the negative sort of criticism and because the cognitive together strong they'll make the efforts to sort of like push that away it's kind of like a very a microcosm of that is what I'm trying to think of when somebody it's because it's management because like even even effectively communicating one negative response has the possibility to you know in the modern parlance go viral yeah so if it spreads uh that could be a real problem yeah it's like I'm thinking of like where somebody exhibits like sort of shitty behavior or something like that and somebody and they keep the you know like cognitive dissonance of like pushing aside people who are saying it's like and it's just like no this is like I'm enjoying like like sort of the road I'm traveling down so like he's like don't take me away from that that kind of just like yeah that's one generally though they've got something that reinforces them to to know that they can fall back on yeah that's um I'm trying to like that that's their own like whether it's whether it's particular friends who do the same or or happily indulge negative behaviors yeah or family and commonly it's probably family they're falling back on yeah and that's the that's the kind of tribe that they stay part of the people who are criticizing them it's like you're out of that and just like and just like you've lost that part of the it's like that they get pushed out of that part of the tribe you know what I mean like so it's just like it's like now the five people who are acting out the one person is like guys I don't think we should do that and to go back to the creation versus criticism thing in that regards like you know creating the shitty behavior versus criticizing it which one is more valuable even if five people are just saying let's all yeah but yeah but we're not talking about creating shitty behavior it's about creating a shitty oh sorry yeah have having a shitty creation fair enough like if someone makes something bad they they can probably learn from it I don't doubt that again like I was saying earlier most people who create anything are very aware of and probably more aware than the critic sometimes of the of the failings that's why I said most you know of the failings in their own creations yeah of course like that's um like when we were talking about Wonderland before I think this might be the time to bring it up yeah bring it up bring it up but first I'll say is like yeah because like you're familiar with the concept of death of the author and just like how things that they say about it may not like even it's like they have about as much to say about the piece as somebody else who was able to yes yes yes yeah yeah which I think I think given the way because of like I've also studied literature and I think given the way that sort of goes the the death of the author the author thing has um as much more prevalence now than it did oh definitely um you got most authors are dead but that's that's completely out of literature is dead that's what Nietzsche should have said no one was worried about whether God was dead or not they wanted to make sure that the good book hadn't died and I don't mean the good book I meant yeah yeah hey good book yeah a good book I liked um he broke my favorite book kick him out that's it that's kind of but um in the regards of like I've heard examples made like okay have you seen the the suicide squad I have to annunciate the we're not talking about the fucking travesty that was 2016 but um um so in the suicide squad there's the character of polka dot man oh no sorry I haven't seen this yet okay oh I don't want to spoil it then yeah don't it's it's really good for DC but um apparently it is good I I definitely it's my favorite out of like the DC movies like all the DC EU Zach Snydery you know horror world yeah but um there's this character that like is like sort of uh I think I'm stealing this like this was brought up on every frame of pause but it's based on response to something James Gunn said about the character so like the character of polka dot man is portrayed as they have this sort of um they're very shy they have a lot of uh yeah sorry it's hard to do this like if you haven't seen the film but like I've seen that ad where you know it's like you know we're and it got memed you know it's like we're all gonna die and it's like I hope so he's very down in the dumps he doesn't have a lot of confidence his whole character is communicated in that moment like yeah I knew exactly what we were getting and I still haven't seen the film I know exactly what he's going to be like when I watch it he was created because his parents wanted him to be a superhero but then like he didn't react very well to that he basically his powers are a curse and like sort of a criminal now but now it's like he's a sort of like part of him like you know being accepted within a group and like kind of doing good and doing good turning his life around is a big element of his character but James Gunn said that actually his character was looking for attention and that he was a narcissist and it's like that doesn't read anywhere within the film there's nothing to suggest that at all other than the fact that I mean you'd be surprised clinic clinical narcissism has um many different ways to manifest like that like it it I haven't seen it but I suppose if he's if he behaves in like in the trailer and in the meme you know I hope so um you know I hope we all die kind of thing if that's the way it manifests like often often those those activities to get attention but he's very no he's very he's very clear about like you know he doesn't like because like the polka dots grow in his face and he has to throw them up I didn't know that so like you sorry I don't want to spoil too much because oh shit it's good but I wouldn't spoil the arc for him because like I think he's probably the best character in there maybe one of at least like um but um yeah he has to throw the polka dots up yeah no no I'm not talking like that's like saying you know someone who has an uncontrollable rash or bad acne you know is doing it for attention I'm not talking about that if James if James Gunn is talking about his behavior where he's like oh I'm all down in the dumps there is definitely a whole that's why oh I'm sorry there are narcissists yeah that's why there's the whole duma kind of like meme is because I did massive air quotes there um is because there are people who are like I'm so sad and the world is bad and I am hurting inside like they don't actually feel like that all around me yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly like they would want to pretend that that's the anthem to their life but what they're doing is they're jumping into a tribe that's safe so that they're avoiding criticism what they're putting out has already been tried and tested by someone else so they're mimicking and and that's what monkeys do yeah we just monkey see monkey do we mimic what we see as successful behavior because it's good for our survival so the tortured artist is definitely that's why people joke that there are six movies made but you haven't heard that there's like this kind of joking criticism that's like there are six movies or maybe it's not six but the same movies are getting made over and over again and they're and they're they're the same six or eight however many like there's six or eight frameworks and that's it that's all there is oh well are they gonna I couldn't I couldn't remember off as much as I want to have a look at it like now I'm probably going to go and have a look at it like at some point but that's the criticism like it's the yeah it's going to be the same thing on repeat forever yeah that's like that's pretty interesting there's definitely like obviously there's a little crossover and that doesn't it's because it's successful that's and that's what I'm getting and if it's successful it it it sort of preemptively belies criticism oh sorry preemptive so if you if you do what has already if you if you know that tree produces mangoes you're gonna go to that tree to pick mangoes because you picked mangoes there before so you keep picking mangoes there yeah until it no longer provides mangoes then you will try a new tree yeah that movie format keeps bringing in the big buck so you're gonna keep trying that movie format if it ain't broke but yeah that's more than it's more than if it ain't broke it's if it's if it works work it yeah that's kind of like that's I'm definitely which I'm pretty sure I think it's like from legally blonde or it's from one of those yeah if it works we're kid ages but uh I don't I someone's gonna flay me for that I don't really care I haven't seen legally blonde either or clueless oh it's pretty good yeah I I I want to see clueless I'm not interested in legally blonde like it's fine clueless legally blonde mangoes like three of the like pretty good they're the they're the they're the trinity yeah yeah they're the trinity of like millennial kind of you know that's sort of like going from John Hughes into like these more cheesy over the top parody kind of ones I say 10 things I had about you as close but I don't think it's as good as like it's in a different it's in a different league yeah it is trying to be a bit more edgy I suppose like a bit more edgy but it is all trying to be a bit more feelsy like the you know the comedy's with feeling yeah that's a weird one that sets itself up to be so absurd like we've got fucking cowboy clicks but it does it it's just like you know I haven't seen 10 things I had about you sorry I haven't seen all of it I've seen bits and pieces okay there's a cowboy click it's and then there's the white uh rest of our old Kobe blue jeans red picker oh my god if I can the amount of like bro country songs on like our radio work oh I want to get into that no it's such a it's such a good it's such a good word but I want to go back to something because we were talking about like they just say I I understand that I'm just using it sort of the hypothetical I think it can apply to like artwork in a sense just like if you're just say like you know shitty behavior and the criticism of it which one's more valuable I think the criticism is more like of course like that would be had to be there if shitty behavior like you know it um we we have a propensity to do it so that that was the other feeling that I wanted to get to I can get to because I was saying like there's two inclinations right and obviously the inclination is to avoid criticism because that means rejection but the other inclination is to seek out behavior to critique right and we're aware of they are almost the two sides of a coin kind of thing because the that they they are complementary to the continuation of um of a group yeah right because you weed out what is destructive and non-cooperative and continue what is cooperative and productive so which is kind of can be you don't want to stop yeah that's where the feeling comes from yeah it's just your monkey brain telling you like if this is bad I'll kick you out of the tribe and you will die but to an extent but like we look at it's just like you know I'm not saying that will happen what I'm saying is like that's what we feel right and however we feel it to whatever level some people will feel more or less than others some people will be like well I'm a bit anxious about putting this out other people will have a full meltdown and probably never publish a thing right yeah but they may produce like you know raffles and you know um um monies you know you know they may produce beautiful works but um um vanguard like it he he couldn't get traction where he did try but he was also so torn up about himself um that's terrible really sorry he had um like yeah he had he had a probably a whole host of issues and you know we cannot diagnose him because we don't know the man yeah and we're also not professionals in that field but you know it reading what other people say is that it's quite likely that he had a whole host of issues yeah um and it seems he recognized them in himself uh to a greater or lesser extent and therefore beat himself up about them yeah sorry for the background noise everybody neighbors are putting the bins out yeah bastards um but um yeah that's what I'm saying can't be applied but if we looked at those lenses of just like you know when somebody criticizes like this shitty behavior that can be like bad from um the peripherals of the the standard of say nutritional health even as like the most simplest thing yeah it's like that's why like I look at when with stories whether it's like you know consistency like well-building actually fitting in like you know not contradicting previously established information for seemingly no reason so like when we say like nutrition it's like this is like by that it is bad for you especially in these excess amounts but that but that's like that's the difference between you know a measurable response and uh um and an emotional response we take with people like you know sometimes like you know unnutritional things so that's like that's the emotional uh whereas like the I mean there's a physiological thing to that that's I think that's a bit more complex yeah I want to like just like you know it's like that it's like what we say about the the car it's like I still love that scene I still love that movie but like it is still there and it's just like kind of like you know there are movies that I like that are like really badly written but you know you can see that they're badly written just saying the same like I love ice cream or it is bad for me in the excess excess amounts but that like that again that's recognizing something that is measurable and objective whereas the car thing is what value you you ascribe to something well I could just couldn't you like stretch it so far to say like do you place a nutritional like like you you ascribe it a negative value I ascribe it zero value it's not it's not a good thing I couldn't call it a good thing to the scene but I don't call it a bad thing because I do not value it like as as negative what it's just it's there it just is and so I just I move on with my viewing of the movie what if somebody would say that about nutrition though they're just wrong because they're gonna have a heart attack before I do okay but that movie just broke its own movie isn't gonna cause someone a heart attack because there's a car and yes it's not it's not the it is going to break the logic passion of the car that's the lens though that's the lens of just of like that that standard but the movie kind of sets for itself yeah that's why like every movie it's case by case it's all different like not every movie is held to the same you know sort of self-standard like especially when you look at like sort of something like Xavier renegade angel where there's just no fucking sense to anything but and then like or like a parody movie like airplane where it's like the logic of the world it's like you could like it is with it is the standard of that world that it is absurd as make it makes no sense because it is all about the but those yeah but that's that's that's the whole intent because it's a comedy movie that's meant to parody yeah those airplane action films it's the intent and also it's what makes sense within the grounds the movie has set for itself in terms of like it's kind of it's meant to be like sort of a palette of like a setting that you've seen before that makes sense in our own world but then all these absurd completely inexplainable things happen and the absurdism is the humor but the reason yeah but the reason is the reason is is because that you can find that funny and acceptable within its whole gamut is because it um it doesn't stretch suspension of disbelief too far yeah the it's it's not beyond suspension of disbelief to think however unlikely that all of the editors and the director and all the people you know in any test audiences for the fellowship of the ring didn't see the car right it's it's very unlikely but the point is is that what that tells me about that scene is that it is so well done no one was looking in the background for an error and anyone who was probably has a very sad lonely little existence that they had to go in that they had to go and look for that and then pointed out to people being like look see see this little error in the background I found I'm I'm I'm so clever I'm so smart I would and this goes back to my point earlier about there is something that makes up a critic that doesn't make up a creator and it's very unlikely for the two to exist together Andy Warhol being a famous exact exception well um I think there's a lot of like that's a that's a tangled web to untangle like in terms of like what we could discuss with her that but I I definitely weren't like because now now is again what has already been the perfect time to pick up what to put now is already again what has been that's some wisdom it was written on the first draft so it was so as it was written so it was written on the first draft yeah um but yeah can't let let's do this let's do this 84 because the intentions thing that you bring up and what we talked about in terms of the value that's placed in between the criticism and the creation of that specific example of the car because there is just so much that is working about that scene that going against that but like if we took that out if we took the car out all that would be changed is the surface level fact that is like oh there was that error that was there and now it is going are we talking about Wonder Woman 84 no I'm setting up so we talked about the law of the ring sorry yeah yeah yeah but I think there's something in Wonder Woman 84 much more egregious so she unintentionally as far as like I can I can recall makes a wish with a wishing stone because she like I don't know if she vocalizes it or if she wishes to get what's his name Steve Trevor back Steve Trevor and what I was going to say one of the steves a Steve of sorts yeah um he comes back superhero all american Steve he inhabits the body of another person and whether that person's conscious has been taken out of their body and placed in some realm okay I don't I okay I I they've unwillingly I don't know I haven't thought about it it's that's fair enough to know I I I if I'm being honest I I don't know I don't even know if people have thought about this as well the implication maybe they haven't but it's like as soon as you recognize as soon as you point out the director denies it even if there wasn't their intention so what tell me what's what's the argument is it because it's he's controlling someone else's body yeah there's some conscious we have no idea what has happened to it either it has been taken out and just erased from the plane of existence until it's brought question is like is yeah is the original person in that body aware yeah that's basically but by the end is that what you is that what you're talking about the end of the film whether they it reveals like that because that's the thing the end of the film shows is just like oh he's back the body's back and he's talking with Diane it's cute little so it's like uh she has been sleeping with your body for the past week or so um and and nobody recognizes the fact that like you know his body is like he Steve Trevor using his body has broken into the Smithsonian Museum has been seen in all these different scenarios with Wonder Woman they're like you know probably caught on camera i'm pretty sure the Smithsonian back in the 80s had cameras i'm like i could be wrong but um and yeah no no consequences come with that but basically because you know the ending is just like the contrivance of all contrivances it is just broken because they just like everyone in the world just reverts their wishes because Wonder Woman gives a nice speech even like sorry that's another thing to go into all i'm gonna say is like whether this guy's conscience was completely like put on hold and just like he was just like you know put in a plane of non-existence until the year she revered her wish at the end of then his conscience came back or if the conscience was there experiencing the whole thing but then had his memory conscious conscious yeah sorry that's all right the size of the conscious is experiencing the wrong excuse me and then he had his memory erased and now he's back whichever one it is she used still used his body in that regard to like you know kind of and did end up sleeping with it so like obviously we don't have the grounds to be able to do that within our lives with it like you know the world that we exist so it is something of a thought experiment to be had about that because that's what i was gonna get at like i i think personally i think it's beyond me to get into a philosophical yeah sorry a discussion over a philosophical exercise over what would constitute rape in this fantasy setting i'm not saying that it doesn't what i'm saying is like i watched it once i did not think about that movie deeply enough maybe i should have if like if if you're under no obligation to that's no i know i yeah i like i know but what i'm saying is like i i don't know i i was really only half paying attention to that movie it looked nice i can remember that about the film right like it was a lot of colors yes there's a lot of colors so story four looked nice i'm not gonna lie like it does raise an interesting question uh yeah i like i i could probably go into the the you know the the philosophical aspects of it but i'm so far removed from being a philosopher as well so yeah like i just i think in a lot of regards i'm not geared to make that that assessment fair enough i guess like as a yeah as compared to saying like you know lord of the rings is still great despite the car in the background yeah no yeah fair enough i yeah again if i sprung that on you or no it's fine i just i was just yeah i was just kind of like i was like uh did i watch the right film maybe i'll bring that up and also you've heard of all my friends go into one woman 84 and i walk into the sesame street movie and i'm like where are these guys but um i'll i'll bring that up and along with the movie cuties and that like you know regardless of the intentions that i remember i remember seeing the ad for cuties like all i i'm they were like cheerleaders or something or dances yeah that was really bad i saw the ad like i saw the ad poster because it was kicking around the internet yeah you know the movie that's that's different that's a willful choice because they're playing off that whole teen mum thing yeah the way they portrayed it is like what the intentions are supposed to be a criticism of the child like sort of of like you know like i don't want to get demonetised um yeah i'm not monetised anyway what the fuck am i talking about but um but like if that if that was the point like to criticise the exploitation of children in things like you know like teen mum and um that was the shows like that that was the intention but like what they actually did have pageant mums that's another one isn't it i think so something like that but i did like teen mum and they oh yeah because yeah there's that um honey booboo yeah yeah and she got tender noamine she just said some of the most whack stuff yeah um look maybe the intention was noble but it might have it might have had a poor execution yeah you tried to create like the point of that was like they tried to criticise child uh basically exploitation by exploiting children in the film they they have close-ups on 11 year olds like but it's not bad or anything but like as a twerking and doing like he's weird yeah i haven't watched it but that sounds yes it was very like maybe the best of intentions you could possibly could have thought i want to be best faith there but the way that they executed it because a good a good like probably a better way to do that was you know you you have an actor playing a cameraman and he's filming in you know like you have him maybe not like you know he's not like grinning or something but like he's just doing his job yeah and he's like filming and the implication of how he's positioned the camera implies that it's going to be a gratuitous angle yeah or or and then cut to the gratuitous angle or something on the child right do you know what i mean like yeah show show that the production is the exploitation that could be a good way to go around it i'm just going off what you've told me haven't never you're actually absolutely correct because it is kind of cutting drying this one unfortunately because i just yeah because that going off what you said i just assumed that's what you would have done but then you described it and if that's consistent throughout it yeah it just seems like a missed misguided sort of not misguided like it just seems missed like a missed point like yeah definitely they they they missed they missed the elements that they needed yeah i would definitely agree like there's there's really gratuitous scenes oh my god i just realized i'm criticized again i'm not saying i'm not saying cuties is good or bad i'm saying i just realized i'm criticized you got me i'm i've been infected i'm not turning into a critic no i'll never i'll never create again that's the reason i bring up that and wonder when 84 is because i think the criticism of those elements were more of value than you know the thing itself kind of like the shitty behavior thing that i'm trying to yeah so that but like i'd call that more in the cutie sense i don't know about the 84 thing yeah like in more in the cutie sense i'd call that you know that's criticizing shitty behavior you know that's that's weeding the bad things out to keep you know keep the tribe safe apes together strong yeah and then and then you know but that's different from an artist who's scared to hang their picture in a gallery for a showing right it's it's it's a different it's a different behavior set but it's the same emotional reaction being scared to to to present something as opposed to being scared to behave in a certain way because it will receive criticism right they're both they're both gonna receive criticism but the material effects of one or the other is it particularly now in the modern day are completely different yeah yeah and that's why that's why i'm like art critics get rid of them pointless pointless facet to society i never gain too much like just from the way i appreciate art but that's or or stop paying them make them like ancient greek philosophers they can sing for their supper their criticisms really good rich white people in you know um in the nice you know in the nice suburbs of their cities can you know throw them a you know throw them a you know a column in the paper and pay them on commission and then they can enjoy what it's like to be an artist that they're ripping down because that's the other thing too like a lot of these you know chuckle nuts you know they you know columnists and career journalists that have worked their way up you know to do this and they they have a salary and then they'll shit on a on a book or a painting by an up and coming author or painter and possibly head off that person's career and that's i think that's part of the reason why old media is so scared of new media is because baby they don't need your approval to get noticed anymore yeah and that's what's kind of terrifying if you ask me no no but the point is is like each taste can be serviced you don't have you don't have this intermediary who who selects from the six flavors what one flavor everybody eats everybody can can find which of the six flavors they most prefer yeah it was much more it's the free market baby the the the critic used to kind of be like what filtered out between you want to talk about gatekeeping yeah he definitely wasn't yeah the critic used to be the the the filter yeah that was and that's not i mean it's still there but it's not as potent as it wants i think it's gone the other way because you've got these big companies that are just like it's a critic we will take we will fly you ever see this to go see our movie if you say good things yeah but that's um yeah so there's a lot a lot of like that we've discussed and gone through over here i've seen that like check and you watch obviously you got a bit of time yeah i think were we saying this at the start like you know i'm always late to things so and like i'm going to be late to another thing oh shit so like we're at the point now where it's like so we've looked at creation versus criticism we obviously haven't arrived at a but we got a little bit off topic but i really like enjoyed that discussion so thank you very much for having a quick disclaimer for everyone i called him uh package that's his nickname like of the chain mail thing i'm going to leave that up for you to decipher why he's called package so um yeah thanks for this man this has been like a really great discussion like yeah we didn't route i wasn't assuming that we'd reach a conclusion because like we're still where we were uh kind of at the start where there is and it was like i understand why you it's not it's not something that can have a conclusive oh yeah absolutely it's definitely i just have feelings man and i feel the critics suck totally fair enough and i'm still at the point where i feel like where it is hey creators we get it stop fucking creating and i'll stop criticizing i've tried to stop it all doing either i don't want art to exist this is like just gets in the way like christ what two stories the more wars or some shit i don't ever say anything truly controversial someone will come back and clip me out of context being like i don't want art to exist just like that's my main goal i'm gonna put that as my my channel description um but yeah that's that's the name of the podcast series i don't want art to exist oh i think that that that's a good close yeah absolutely goodbye everybody