Okay. Can we just do a round of who everybody is because Mark doesn't know everybody yet? Oh, okay. Sure. Hi, Mark. I'm Denise Whelan. Nice to meet you, Denise. Nice to meet you, sir. Well, I'm Mark. Since I'm a new one, I'm Mark Mowling. You know I do it. You mean us? Bruce Johnson. But you can tell because we, of course, the first time ever, we have a car. So I know who I am. Thank you. Well, no, we, all of us are the 18 now, we have to remind ourselves. I'm Sharon Lynn. I'm on, I'm a member of the Call of Slaw Force. You guys are members of the board? Yeah. Yes, John. Yeah, they get the name tags when you come in. Okay. And our other, there's Rick Warren. And John's on the team. John Bravan. Hey, John. John Bravan. Judith Dillon. I'm here. I'm a member of the East Montpilier Select Board. Hi. Carl Etten. I am East Montpilier Select Board. There we go. Okay. I'm Seth Gardner, East Montpilier. There we go. Yeah, okay. That's right. Yeah. And we see you too, Katie. Did you call any notice? Yep. We're good to go then. That means it's going. You're already in process. You asked about executive section. I did. We have not had, we, we haven't in. Yes. And publicly we have, you know, made the community aware that we have opened the contract for negotiation, but we have so far dealt with the issue in executive section. Oh, yeah. Yes. Because it's contract. So, and so from our perspective, I say we have not come in. So I guess from Cal's perspective, we would like to continue to do this in executive session. All right. So that means that requires a motion. If you guys are okay with that, then we each have to make a motion to convene an executive session under BS.  A the sub-provision for contractual negotiations. Okay. Do you have a motion, Jim? That is a motion. Okay, I will second it. Okay. Calus Board on favor. Please say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I I know do we want to call us do we want to invite our recording secretary to take notes and you'll take notes of the guy you can want to like we can take we can take our own notes because we're going to land somewhere and we'll have because Bruce is probably you know you don't take minutes in executive session you can take notes and the notes are not public right right so we can take notes right we can take notes and then and that way we can let Katie and don't we put it reporting on well I don't think you mind um if you prefer to have it have her here to take the notes Denise has fine yeah I think it just makes it easier for us to have Katie take the notes so I would invite our recording secretary and you take notes not minutes okay so we we have to make the motion ourselves it's a double motion too please I'll make the first part of the motion the finding okay yep you're doing that problem I did yes in the second part is to go in so somebody needs to second the finding motion that we need to go in okay then we vote on that all in favor the eyes have it and the second is to actually go in right I'll make that motion too I'll hang out for one sec uh Ty is here are you going to be willing to invite him in I don't know because we haven't involved in the session uh so that would be the whole point that would be the whole point of being an executive session well we're but right so if it's only two of us we're not in this we're not negotiating we're discussing right but the findings the finding piece of the east modular most motion if I'm under if I'm understanding by extension what you're finding or you're finding that that the negotiations would be compromised if you have a discussion in public am I right about that Bruce you're right that's what the finding is but what what you're trying to decide now is whether to invite Ty and yeah and if you choose not to invite Ty and I would ask that you let Ty talk first right before you go into the session yes I would say I don't see any reason to go into executive session if if Ty is going to be here I don't see why we should include exclude the rest of the public right agree I agree that's why I never wanted to go in the exact recession discusses anything so my understanding is we'll let Ty speak then the board is going to go into executive session if that's what you desire I mean I'm sorry I'm why I guess I was uncertain as to the purpose of this I thought Ty was going to be part of our conversation and not just you know speak and then leave if we're talking about the document itself is like Ty is here we can all discuss it we're not in the next session the two boards haven't had a chance to talk about this okay yeah can I chime in yeah can I chime in it's common place to have negotiators those negotiating contract to work together in executive session we've done that in our union negotiations you might remember call us select board members but then we would also have executive sessions without the other party present so I would strongly encourage us to first since Ty is there we invite Ty into executive session with us we have our frank open discussion which is the real purpose of our executive session meeting and then we ask Ty to leave having heard him and then we have a conversation between the two select boards and see where that leads so that's my suggestion so so um John one one point of correction when we were meeting with the union we actually weren't in a meeting or an executive session we were in neither of those things just to be I think I feel it's really clear to say that out loud we weren't having a select board meeting we didn't go into executive session we just had a meeting which under according to our town lawyer was completely permissible it didn't have to be worn as a meeting didn't have to be so we didn't have to go have an agenda we didn't have an agenda we didn't go into an executive session did which which probably John doesn't ultimately change the point that you're making but I feel like we want to be really clear about that right in case anybody watches the movie and says wait a minute but why don't we just have Ty speak to us before we go into executive session yeah I guess some groundwork for us to have our meeting executive session after this how much time did you a lot okay oh um we allotted 10 minutes no just 15 minutes no what the item was going to do at that time it doesn't matter you're here we're here all right we're not under a time constraint at this point everyone loves this stuff yeah all right so okay so let's not go into executive session see what Ty has to say then go into executive session after five weeks okay so that's what we're going to have to do okay yes yeah can I see you I think from my side hearing part of the conversation and answering the questions would be much easier we are zero response from call us either for or against the meeting or not meeting at all and we might see seven months of this with no communication prior to this um so I think it would be easier for me to answer questions you guys have about what you're seeing or what you just liked or about what we put for well let's do that we'll be looking at what we have so why didn't you explain to us your counter proposal well I think our kind of proposal was geared towards trying to answer the concerns you guys have brought forth the largest one being the transparency you know we felt that we could acknowledge that part on the floor at the town meetings you know and answer that there we also felt that it was important to hear the purpose of calling the the contract out you know and what the issue was again trying to overstep into any boundaries of the select board's authorities or to just do it without reason but I feel that in the process of looking at the process that occurred I think we went a long time with no answer and no information as to what was going on and to why I feel it would be beneficial if we're all partners in this together that we would be able to openly communicate that part of what we put on the floor again not fully understanding the the three year proposal part of it if that was a three-year with no discussion or if that was a three-year still with the same kind of discussions that we were doing on the annual renewal we felt that annually doing it the way we were was a review in December we would meet annually already is if there's an issue let's talk about it um you know let's try to resolve it without going through this process the other one was a timeline there was a timeline proposal you guys had put forth I think we've seen systematically through this year the timeline proposal didn't even come close to being able to work for the shortened version on the proposal versus leaving it the longer window of time to try to accomplish this Denise you were on so we went we wrote this originally and this was probably a year and a half we had negotiations with them and John was on in John right and I think you would be much better to have a more streamlined version with more open conversations I think that's what our goal was overall was to stimulate more conversation in a shorter window of time to try to come through resolution versus this process just go on and on and on and you know you guys have discussions we're not included then it comes to us we respond you guys have discussions we're not included because on because we're gonna come you know that didn't seem really productive for me um I got a lot of other things to do a lot of other meetings and everything as you guys do we'd like to be able to just resolve it and come to solution as quickly as possible well and we call us put forth um our document East Montpelier made some changes to it and you may change us to that so I think everybody's been kept in the loop we received your email your amended document on September 18th and we haven't had a chance to do much with it since then we have reviewed it and so now we feel like it's time to review it with East Montpelier select board as you had a fire department board meeting we weren't invited to that meeting to talk about the document which you obviously did at your board meeting correct right I'm not saying I'm not saying you shouldn't have a board meeting discussions independently of things but we openly put out a request to meet with you folks we gave several options of dates East Montpelier responded back that they could not make that date and things that would be looking at it tonight and then going forwards um you know that I got zero response from call us we received the document we had a meeting on September 27th we heard back from East Montpelier and this is the first chance the call us like we're going to have a chance to come together with East Montpelier well why don't we just look at the document because that's what we're talking about because that's not I think the problem is that if this is not a contract between three parties who are all the same it's not like three cities this is a contract by which two cities are negotiating with a fire district for services so it's fine just like the fire district can talk to its board it's fine for us to talk to you and talk about what we as the contracting parties you know the ones who are asking them to provide services what our concerns are I think it's fine for us to do that in such a session okay but right now what we're trying to do is tease out of time the changes that were made in the document and move forward with that discussion right so that's where we're meeting here right but that's what we have and have the document from the fire department to look at in executive session from the two boards to discuss their changes so we can move and and it's my understanding Ty and I I think I don't understand fully um I want to just um Mark said the fire district but it's my understanding that East Montpelier is not East Montpelier fire department is not a fire district correct it's not it has no municipal charter it's a nonprofit organization right yeah I think Mark's just no no no I know but again I want to say but I know I want to make sure that we're because because that could be an important difference so we want to make sure we're attaching ourselves essentially to the right thing yeah I think you just called it wrong right no I know I know but but there is a thing that is a fire district but this is not it yeah we're all agreeing on that yeah um so I think that the boards need to go into executive session and discuss the changes if I may comment um this is Judith Dillon I'm I guess I'm still not understanding why we need to talk just between the uh select boards I thought the purpose of tonight's meeting was to get the input of the um fire department in part because it felt it had been left out of this process and this was an opportunity to get all three parties in the same room to talk about what the concerns were and to see if we can resolve um the issue I I I don't know what utility will come from just having the um uh municipality select boards in a room talking about it saying golly well why do they want this why do they want that their tie is here now why don't we have that conversation right now and we can you know all three parties to this contract are in the room there's no need to go into executive session so why don't we have the conversation well we may need eventually to go into executive session but I agree with you Judith that we can make good use of tie while he's here tie has been asked uh to explain the proposal from the fire department and we heard about the process I I'd like to you know ask the question again of tie uh tell tell us about your proposal what why did you propose making the changes that you proposed please I think it'd be easier Carl a little bit for you guys to ask your questions that I can answer them directly in the explanation to us and I think that's kind of the whole concern when you guys go into executive session you guys are talking about it without the understanding of maybe where it came from but for us to understand slowly what your question is student voting answer accordingly um seems like just the open communication is a much better way to go well and I don't disagree about open communication but as I stated the third department had a meeting where you talked about the contract in your whole meeting that we were not invited to so to me this is our opportunity to do what you have already done I think but I don't want to I don't want to delay the semantics of the process about because everybody's had meetings individually on their own we've come to the table I think the result of this will be the same result as we had the last time if you guys come out with a output of change and you hand it off to us we're going to come back again and end up having to try to do this again down the road we're just kicking the football farther away okay so rick once hi denise I'd like to speak yeah I agree with ty and jude on this I just soon have this conversation with I mean with pie in the room this there's I know this you know I don't I think we can get a lot farther if we gotta talk much on to the change I mean going through I in this discussion yeah I don't think you should talk about no I don't hear I said we don't need to go that it's such it's like a such something you can do that please okay so let's let john speak on yeah and I generally concur with the theme that's being presented by rick and judith I'll say generally I think it would be great if ty would walk through well not only his proposed language that we've now seen from middle mid september but also what his concerns were with the language that was that we pretty much came together with east montpelier and callus pretty much came together on that provided the leeway to both select boards should they decide to have a separately warned article in their town report for the east montpelier fire department budget and before I get off my pedestal I'm going to remind ty what has just been said five minutes ago that we are both municipal entities callus and east montpelier the fire department is a private nonprofit organization we have an obligation to run our town meetings as we see appropriate in our towns and I really frankly feel it's an overreach and we could voluntarily agree to that if we thought it made good sense for our communities but for the a nonprofit that we're contracting for services to direct us to contract or otherwise how to orchestrate our town meeting agenda and whether or not to warn a substantive budgetary item as a separate item and I've said this before we warned the keloch hub it hubbard library item it's a large bite in our budget it's at times very controversial sometimes we expect it to be a blow up and it blows right through but we do this with woodbury we used to do it with east montpelier fire department east montpelier callus fire department and I don't see why we shouldn't continue along that those lines I see that east montpelier callus fire department has proposed going back to the same language that really was in the initial grievance by at least the callus select board in this regard and I don't see my my mind changing now maybe tonight you can change my our minds ty but I'd like to hear from ty let's walk through the letter what's in the areas of contra in controversy most of it I think we still have an agreement on and and then we can go into executive session as carl suggests um after afterwards see where we're all at that's what I was just going to say john I could see agreeing to going through the language as opposed by the fire department and then the two boards going into the assessment of section after the rest of the board sorry I'm just going to ask can I throw the agreement up do you want to have it on screen sure you know what I'd like to do we see it from there I want to I want to just underscore the point john made that where where what the callus select board what the callus select board was looking for I would not characterize as transparent because because ty I would never say that the budget of the east montpelier fire department wasn't known to the town it was it's it's there as a as a line item I guess it wasn't broken out but the issue from our perspective that I think we were really clear on is the fundamental issue was that we were contractually bound to not present it a separate item which became which became a very important thing for us to be able to do and I still I as john just said I and I agree I still feel like that's critically important this is what I agree I mean to share and that's the fundamental point it's not correct here you know that's the way you need to visit us about and that is our right as well and we need to take that we don't want to contract it away yeah we can't we're not signing off on that oversight we work for the that doesn't mean we are a different policy you know and this is I think as you are being leaders this is important point to maintain their trust and support I mean just as a positive and what and you know personally I've heard from town voters that want to see this on the on the morning and I think you know we have our meetings about the budget so it's transparent nobody's suggested that it wasn't transparent so let's so let's move on we don't need to look at the memo I would think first I think just do you want to look at the memo after all well just a little document you had circulated something like a slight tweak to this that was something that you just sent to um some of us is a possible compromise that came from callous callous yeah it has changed began since yeah yeah never mind never mind that take that right off the table yeah for now okay so what we're looking at is the version that the tyson tyson okay on September 18 that's what we all know so somebody oh that's the one that gets that sent around about the one year three year thing this is no this is this is the one from ty and I don't the only two things that callous had on their plate was item number one and six so I initially initially right so item one um and unfortunately Ty didn't lean in where we had put hang on hang on because we suggested a three three year president five year if you look at what was initially sent around yeah and this is the one that the two I think this is the one that the two boards okay so the anyways the one three or five that was a deal that was the that was the bigger issue in this and then the fire department wanted to stay tight so assuming it was the whole court um came back with this different language which was changed it back to five five months all that five months instead of three right and then they have added an annual review of the contract shall be included in the annual December budget meeting which is I'm assuming they're talking about a meeting between that's what this is this is the three competing languages right there oh you wrote it for paragraph one right so what the fire department came back with and I'm assuming when they're talking about the December meeting they're talking about the meeting that the fire department and the town staff together soon that's what it what he means but it doesn't want to say that um it shall be required to hold a joint meeting of the three parties within 30 days of the non-renewal notice the notice of says renewal I think it's I think it's meant to say non-renewal here shall include an explanation of the issues of the issues the party wishes to address and that joint meeting a schedule of joint meeting shall be set with a minimum of one joint meeting of the three parties per month until the renewal date so that's the language fire department came back with in response to what we provided um I think Cal assigned it in August and you signed it in July and our language is um which one can you which one is it the initial term shall be one year commencing the existing agreement Bruce it's right there in the middle yeah the okay so so that it shall be it shall be required can I just ask Ty a couple questions an annual review of the contract shall be included in the annual December budget meeting that seems reasonable like something we probably have been doing yeah it is if a notice of non-renewal is given by one party it so there's a pronoun it shall be required to hold a joint meeting of the three parties within 30 days of the non-renewal notice can you Ty just explain to us what it means and how you envision that playing out with a timeline of 30 days I think the goal through that portion is to facilitate this happening with a timeline and so who is is is is does it mean with all three of us together at the table and and so initially if we look back at how this process occurred right it was kind of thrown to the air in December but nothing officially done I don't have all the dates but it wasn't till it was in March maybe and then it was an April meeting we asked about what the details were at our joint meeting and we were told there was no details at that point it would be coming out and then it didn't come out with actually what the specifics were until end of May if I remember correctly um and then we didn't actually officially meet on anything or have any communications back and forth directly until the August meeting where we met in August and I think that was our concern is that to be able to somehow come to a term in agreement that says we can do this faster we can do this more efficiently we can do this better and how do we do that what do we what do we need to do with this is I mean this is what we kind of need we need to have a bunch of proposals when we're in December whenever that time is so we can actually get filled with our budget process we have a town going to town meeting and then we've got authorization to use that money they put that from that point we can either we notice we to move forward or we have a non-agreement at that point where we we do you know we begin that negotiation with you if we have if we were to have to do that that's those are the those are the fixed points for us it's town meeting because that's when we are authorized by the taxpayers to do that but but I agree with all of that but if we go back to the specific language it's that Tai or the the EMS that you can play a fire district fire department proposed would it equally meet your goals if it said if a notice of non-renewal is given by one party the parties shall endeavor that's a word that has been put out there before the party shall endeavor to hold a joint meeting of the three parties within 30 days of the non-renewal that sounds like what you described to me to do that I think the the some of the discussion with the current award was the word endeavor and what's the commitment to fill an endeavor well and that was the question because again how do we resolve something like this you know we look at this we look at this it's about 11 years with no issues you know and then we do a relot and we're we're working our way back to this backwards in some ways it seems like well i'm not going to give you issues for you up to this point but there can be threats we know the way our town responds in different circumstances this come back you know this can not work out and it's got there's a sniff factor to this kind of thing you know this is a big bunch of life it's like a lot harder and if you take that right away from the taxpayers and they can rightly get upset by that and it can sway decisions that they've prepared for me that's great support and counts I mean these two very very strong books and that will continue but we have a do you know there's a new diligence that we have to the taxpayers who they are engaged in this process they're not pushed out of it they're not by politicians they're part of it and they need to feel really strongly about that that they need that's the way we keep them engaged so Sharon here if your problem is your concern the word required and that it and it should it shall be required i jumped in here i'm carl let me finish okay so i think we should just put a pin in this because because none of the three of us can compel the others to show up at a meeting within 30 days so there's i understand the intent is if somebody posts a notice of non-renewal there needs to be some energy around having a meeting but even if even if callus is the party that that alerts you know or or provides notice of non-renewal we cannot compel the other two parties to show up at a meeting within 30 days so somewhere in there the it especially if it is the non-renewing party which i i'm imagining is might be in some people's minds so they were the non-renewing party cannot be required to hold the joint meeting within 30 days because we cannot compel the people to show up so i'm not i'm not saying that we should read that to death i'm just flagging that as a as an issue which could become luke as we move through the rest of the discussion but the way that it's structured right now it doesn't work on its face now it doesn't so wouldn't we be able to have an agreement between the three parties of how we accomplish a meeting process going forward that would be absolutely agreeable that would be followed through on versus number two versus try to versus we may never do all sure but that's all but but but but it shall be required and if we replace it with what i'm going to imagine is your attempt if a notice of non-renewal is given by one party the non-renewing party shall be required that doesn't work i'm flagging that issue and all i'm saying is flag it we should move on in our discussion and recognize that doesn't work okay i want to just interrupt if we may try yep i'm done i was just going to i think you've said well Sharon what i was going to say if somebody's going to quit an agreement you can't force them to do anything so let's move on i agree okay so then it goes on to say the notice of renewal and i think you meant to say non-renewal is that correct side in your sentence there the notice of renewal i think you meant to say non-renewal shall include an explanation of the issues the party wishes to address it sounds like you're going to know not renewal because there's what we there wouldn't be any issues to address right so type okay i want to be clear at that joint meeting and i'm assuming that joint meeting is the one you're referring to in the sentences above do you want to schedule a joint meeting shall be set with a minimum of one joint meeting of the three parties per month until the renewal date which yep that i don't that doesn't want to make a lot of sense to me when you say until the renewal date and going back to the issue we you can't compel we can't compel the fire department we can't compel these not really our select award if you want anything that they're not willing to do so going going back again to the word um resolution or something like that um where does it say so set with a minimum of one joint meeting of the three parties per month i don't think you compel that so i don't think our goal is to try to keep power try to do and force the select force to do anything on the ordinary our goal is to try to have a process that's going to be in place that when we agree that we do this action we all follow that action going forward so we can say on the front side this is our commitment if we pull this plug on this and we want to change that we're willing to meet once a month to resolve this if we're willing to meet twice or every two months but i think that having a plan is important so that we can actually successfully accomplish this okay all right so we can change the language yeah i think i think we can move on to the next i think we we understood the replacement yes right the process and i actually don't disagree with having something in place so we can move forward right because even on the other side we're like what's going on you know you know i think it's going right right yeah we just yeah a better we should put something in there yeah right right so even that in the terms of compiling and requiring right i could just make one more yeah and backwards a little bit yeah is we're in no way trying to keep this from discussion on the floor or anywhere from the taxpayers we're all taxpayers in these towns as well um we have no fear of the support from the town's people for what we do um i didn't realize because i don't read the callous town report i didn't realize you guys don't publish the same reports that get published in each small pair so our full budget sheets that we report to you guys in december are all fully published page by page in the town report in each small pair they're fully broken out and you guys aren't doing that in cows but that's that was part of our suggestion is also the fact it's opened up that everything is there and then we're willing to have that conversation on the open floor which then allows you the same platform to open the discussion that's necessary which i think will be really important when we're warning it as a separate item right okay so what's the next topic later that's it well this is the number six emfb shall report to have voters at the annual town meeting during the article specifying to ask questions about town so you're instead of what you're doing is when we open up town meeting we give people the opportunity to ask questions and many of the town boards commissions committees whatever you're suggesting that that's when you would do it not when it would come up as a separately warned separately warned item you have a discussion about the budget yeah well if it was because our proposal is for it to stay within the flood board budget because again that's part of the commitment you guys accept in december this is okay we approve just to go forward because again those are those are the discussion boards right there when we meet in december to talk about this that was that was exactly that was that it was the whole point of our non-regulatory we understand that so we responded that we don't fully agree with that but we feel that there's some concerns for callas directly with the impacts of what this will do when you open up to party departments on the floor that haven't been on the floor and parallel to each other it may seem parallel your beer is there it may seem i understand that but it may seem parallel but it may also be film oppositional on the floor why because you're going to have discussions openly now that our parallels you don't have two agencies that are talking about the same thing throwing the drops of the same money so if they ask for a truck these small beers not asking for a truck with it for us now we may go forward and ask for a truck and truck again that may not slowly work out the anticipated way that you think it will they could also have a negative impact of people feeling oh why do we need what we're in the standboard or why do we need this or that and and they're they're important to what you guys have for service out in that region on the far edges of counts and they have this come up over time but we always just we have those questions on the floor it's it's it's ironic to me that that it's ironic that you that we would be worried about separating it out and having it go differently because if there's that much of a concern that the discussion will go down differently when it's a separate item that to me that actually argues that it should be a separate item if there's that much concern that people have that much to say or that much of a visceral you know whatever about this budget item that has to be tucked in behind the town budget that argues that actually argues to me that it should that it should be outside so it doesn't appear that we're keeping anything from the vote this is their money this is their tax dollars we have a we have an obligation to them to present the budget and be open and honest about what is in the budget the way it is now people probably look at the the budget but they don't really realize that they could call that out and could have called it out anytime already so we want to make we want to be do our due diligence and be forthright about what your money taxpayer is going towards and we and it sounds to us like you don't want us to do that because then it might not make that an ace and i i would like to contribute um you know a lot of this contract language it has embedded in it a theme that requires both east montpellier township and callous township to unequivocally back the budget and unequivocally back the the fire department and i have no problem with that but the benefit to select boards volunteer select boards and yes we have to live in these towns that we set budgets for two that we tax people based upon um having the fire departments there front and center both of them when that article comes up explaining why their town officials backed such a contract in much greater detail than quite frankly we're capable of and answering those questions in great detail kind of like our state rep comes to our town meeting and answers sometimes very difficult questions gets yelled at at times for positions she has taken but that's important to the community understanding how we got to where we are and you know frankly we i want to see the east montpellier fire department support us the town of callous and frankly our partners east montpellier select board uh they we we do endeavor to support your operation obviously we we'd be of schitt's creek without it that's spelled s c h i t t s creek without it you guys um and but it it's it's a collaborative effort and i want to see more frankly more presence i want to see frankly if i could make a demand east montpellier fire department come to our select our town meeting and put the same level of effort in explaining why we have this these numbers in our budget and these warned items um and explain the value to the community of of their spending their hard earned tax dollars on these these items um woodbury does that consistently they never been fearful they're always proud and they they wave their flag and time and again they get standing ovations i want to see east montpellier fire department get the same because at the end of the day that's a standing ovation for our collective effort and the folks on our select board so um that's i'm gonna get off my podium but that's a big deal for me i would agree i mean i think it would serve the fire department well to come to the meeting see some meet some of the people burn a fire truck so the kids can see it become you know become a little bit more a part of what we're doing on your behalf just to clone some of this too that's why when they vote they on an article they they're saying they say no and they generally say yes on these you know why they always open this is a great service you know but that's what if i support that's an arrangement so what language is um the fire department change in paragraph six after we signed off on it they changed i'm not clear what that changed what she's um right there is that paragraph six yes you muddle the way that's a new paragraph six so that's the one we signed off on right the top one is the one we signed off on the one you can't see anymore is the original and the bottom one is is the but it's okay but it's both one and six that have been tinkered right once on the page but we used that one but they already know you once now we're looking at six right right so six is a new version six is what two select board degree two no no the one we're looking at right now is the one that um fire department to compose new agreement emfd but the one above it is the one that the two that's what we signed off on and so we were so we were in agreement the two select boards on that like on the top right but the bottom one is right well it's a lot of new languages and one that says such amount should be categorized and identified it's related to general governmental expenditures not supplementary useful budget item right that's the if you're talking about the one where Bruce has circled it yeah i first did not circle it i don't know who circled it i didn't do it that's some technique i didn't have any clue how to do it so anyway maybe it was maybe it's the one that says propose new agreement the top and the middle yeah the middle one of the top one is it is now yes so that's the one that we signed off on so in my in my view because it's quarter of nine and that's the one other stuff to do i'm sure is that we've heard from ty yeah the two select boards should now go into executive session we would tie if there anything else in terms of your this issue this issue i understand fully you've told us you're uncomfortable with it it's a separate item you're worried about yes is there anything that she won't think i said that at all not probably no i don't hear what the tax clearance will say yeah i i think that there would be possible revolutions that haven't been considered um such as we we are already in this bottom quarter paragraph here adjust everything that john just brought up about coming we're doing some presentations we've said that we would do that more diligently yes maybe we haven't had the presence the last few years it's been challenging for what we're doing when we're extremely busy and so we're out and we're out and we've been able to make the cut we we acknowledge that part right so we say okay but in terms of it not being warned as a feather item is there any other thing you want to say about that well i think we have some concerns that what happens and again these are hypothetical pieces i don't want to live in the world hypotheticals yeah but what is the consideration if all of a sudden it does change the dynamic on the floor and counts right and just to say if it was going down more out of all this more all of a sudden this is when we want to take 50 000 from the partner project and what does that do in relationship to east welfare okay because there's agreements that are in place to how the cost sharing is and how does that get worked out and none of that has been in discussion that i'm aware of and has a worked out solution to how that comes to play in march well i guess that's thank you i think that's something that i we know details would have to work out right but we i think i'm not quite i guess i'm saying is everybody says we really wanted to hear from ty right about these are issues that's what i asked is there anything else and i think we've heard them out so now we can don't do exactly so right and we didn't vote we had the motion but i don't believe we voted to go into executive session did you think i can't remember we didn't call us did okay we did okay so now it's your turn do we want to go into executive session discuss this thing i guess i don't do that's what we agreed to all right okay and we're just going to go away as well yeah we already voted on the motion on the first time we didn't think right i was on the verge of making the motion the second part of the motion to actually go into executive session i'll do that now right we we voted to ask katie to stay in and take notes on our discussion not minutes notes and we're gonna okay in the photo we're gonna include Bruce you guys yes don't have to no we are so so in the motion we're including i agree executive session it's time thank you all right so did you make the motion i did okay including bruce did we get a second on that i'll second it oh amy made the second all those in favor hi all the members of the callus select board and katie too but there are any executive sessions yeah they can be in ours we're not the recording


I don't believe in hope anymore, and I never use the word hope anymore. She was infected in the operating room with staff and developed life-threatening sepsis. And so it went. Another round of MRSA, another round of C. diff, and he eventually succumbed. The decision was made to take Emily off of life support. But there is hope, and that hope is patience. Whether the number is 200,000 or 400,000 or one, it's one too many. I believe that we can get to zero production in the United States from preventable medical errors. It starts with us. We have to be the ones to decide we're going to lead us out of that tyranny of happening. With your help, we can continue to transform the healthcare system. Because if we're really going to get to zero, we're going to need everyone's help. Do whatever you have to do to get enough partners to make the number zero. Zero.


does that make sense what you doing I'm not gonna hurt you not gonna hurt you what you doing crap I'm about 12 feet from this guy there he goes go on buddy okay guys as you can see back out here at the campground North Hootie Point interesting I can't get I mean this is actually check this out if you go on the website it's full it's it's all filled up and as you can see there's no one here no one is here all right let me get into the story okay so here's the story you know we went camping and over at OCamic and I got sick we ended up only being able to spend one night and I made another reservation out here apparently it was this weekend this Friday and I got it until Monday so I am reserved here so I'm not I just found out about a half an hour ago I was like crap so I'm gonna come out tomorrow night and do a solo and then of course I think monkey's gonna come out and hang out tomorrow sometime her mom's going shopping tomorrow so sometime after that I figure she be out she might do a little bit of fishing I'm kind of looking at this spot right here nice and shady so you used to be able to drive back in here but now you can't so but I'm thinking about this spot right here fire pit here waters way low it's usually it's usually up to here it's way low hey somebody took branches down so but so tomorrow I guess I'm gonna be doing a solo there's that deer way over there so anyway so yeah here we go so the next clip of me setting up and everything will actually be tomorrow but it'll be in this video this will be in that video because I'm just not ready my stuff's not ready by the time I got out here be dark so I got to get on my batteries charged and everything I can bring a little more than what I was planning because you know we can pull up to here and I can just bring my stuff over from there to there no big deal so yeah hey this is this is one of those rocks this is one of those rocks no please post photo on Facebook to Nell and rocks I'll have to go get my phone yeah there's a that's a big thing around here you find these rocks everywhere yeah you take them and you put them somewhere else or someone to find yeah it's not geocaching but it's really cool no all right so okay what do you think mama my little baby would be fine right here you know I'm in the shade yeah I don't see any widow makers up there and yeah because it's supposed to be hot it was what 105 today yeah so real feel but it was 93 but yeah I think my baby would be fine right in here it's nice and soft or right here yeah I thought about just at least setting my bivvy up you know need something a tarp or something well then they'll think somebody just left it yeah but if I put my bivvy up you don't know what they come in the middle of the night yeah sometimes they'll come in the middle of the night and I'll lose a spot but as you can see though I mean there's nobody out now up here there's several people up here yeah where nobody used to camp but they're all like car camping like one guy's got a nice setup look like him and his son he's got one of his rooftop tents on his truck and they're up there but as you can see you can't get back in here now so I don't know I let let me look at the other one and see if you want that one better no I like this this is nice and shady I like this right here what do you guys think got a fire pit right here and we can pull the truck right there and I bring my stuff over I can bring my little my little saw you know cut up a little bit of firewood all right let me see what I'm gonna do that deer still over there boats are going past and he's still there pretty cool okay so I think what's going to happen is I don't think the solo is gonna happen monkeys like oh you know she went back to the house to get my baby I'm gonna set my baby up for tonight and that way the spot will be saved and I'll be I'll come out in the morning and I'll bring my stuff out before her and her mom goes out or goes go shopping they're going to Walmart I'm betting she comes back tomorrow with a tent whether it be ours or a new single she was like I said look I said these trees right here I said that tree and this tree right here and she said yeah she said and then I can sleep on the ground I said in what she said your tent I said what we're gonna do take down every two hours and take turns she goes oh that's right so I don't know I think she might be looking to get a small tent for her and Bruno for tomorrow night but I'll bet you because she wants she was like man I could go swimming there which you can right back over in there there used to be a rope swing people go and they go swimming over there and there's a picnic table there but the tree that held the rope swing has fallen over so but yeah so I think so that's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna set my baby up at least it'll hold my spot until in the morning and then I'll come out and and I'll do some fishing and stuff but I think I think she's going to end up spending she goes we got till Monday I said yeah I reserved it till Monday she goes oh so maybe next weekend I'll do one night solo because it's here too it's at this one next week I just gotta wait for approval I think it'll be alright because it's open but there's a good possibility we might be the only ones back here again so like I said it's all reserved up it's all booked up this weekend I am one of the bookings one of the reserve but as you can see it's wide open so all right well I figure that's what's gonna happen she cuz I said well you come out and hang out tomorrow once you with me maybe do a little fish and she was like yeah yeah I'll do that and then once you seen the spot because this spot right in here used to be real you know it was just like it was just all someone's cleared it out more got a nice piece of firewood here another piece here someone's been chopping on hacking on or little rock I did take pictures of that when I get home I'll post it well what I did was I screwed up and said well our tent will fit in this area right here I see yours I don't have to worry about anything falling down there's no there's no no widow makers up there nothing going to come down on me because I thought about putting my bivvy right here I would have to be careful of that there's a stump there and there's a little tiny stump right there that's the one that because I kind of wanted to come at an angle here so when I woke up I could see that but I think I'll just set it up right here for tonight that's not mine but I'll pick it up for tonight and but the problem you see how clear this is here this this is not just a path because you can see this and then you see right here where there's roots this is where the water runs now I don't have to worry because once I'm set up if I figure I'm gonna get flooded I can just hook on to a couple trees it's no problem but it's waterproof but I don't think it's supposed to rain real hard but either way it wouldn't be hard to move the big tent if we had to we had it set up right over there one time it poured down rain but that tent has never leaked so someone's moved the fire pit from there as you can see over to here but this is nice this is really nice so I just don't know about her tripping over this stuff here but I'm gonna bring my little saw out I'll try to cut them down lower or something make sure she doesn't get doesn't trip over these things you know maybe I'll move a fire ring over to here but then we still got those but I don't know we'll see another boat over here coming yeah so should be fine I wasn't thinking but yeah now that I am thinking I'm like man I'll bet you I they're gonna be a crash nope they're cool but I was like I'll bet you I went ahead I reserved it this weekend so I went ahead and so yeah I think I went I reserved this weekend but I went ahead and reserved next weekend and then they should get a hold of me it's the weekend so probably Monday they'll probably get a hold of me and send me an email with the gate code and stuff so that's pretty cool I'll be back with you guys wow but this is nice nice and shady I mean it's still hot but it's not as hot as it would be you know like out there in the middle so yeah all right guys camping weekend impromptu right so the last time we were here here's where our fire pit was which would have been that one and our tent was right in here and I hung the lantern up off of that limb right there and that wasn't cleared out like that so that's pretty cool yeah our tent was right in here this is where I was having story time I sent in this way monkey was sitting this way facing the tent that's where we heard the coyotes but then Bruno started growling back behind me I couldn't see nothing so yeah so that's where so and I think that picnic table was right in here somewhere can't remember if it was there or here it might have been right in here yeah I think it was right in here yeah right about here is where the picnic table was because I was cooking on the fire there our tent was here and that's when I think that was the last time we camped out here in this spot because monkey went home she spent the first night with me and then the second night I did solo and that's when we had the boat and the boat was parked right over here it was actually right here but the water was up then and I tied off right here there was a route I thought no I didn't I tied off onto this I tied off onto that so I had the boats in here but yeah she went home second night and I spent the night out here and I had to hurry up and pack up the next day to meet her up at the boat ramp so but this wasn't cleared out like this but she's gonna be real careful cuz she's very clumsy I mean she tripped like three times just walking around here but so I'll have to figure out a way put something over them so she can see them so she's not tripping over we'll figure it out so I found another one and there's one there cool so I'm going to take a picture of these so I can post them online so they can see where they're at and then probably before we leave maybe we'll take them up to another campsite right over in there somewhere so yeah big foot direct no I don't think so too small so cool hey there may be more of them around here there's three in one spot so yeah what you do is you pick them up and you move them and you take a picture and you put them online where it tells you to post the pictures and you can tell them where you found them and then but you don't tell them where you're gonna take them because it's kind of like cheating and then when someone else finds them so you kind of kind of track where how far they traveled and where they've gone a lot of wildlife this trip the gator pretty good ways out there he's about 30 yards probably he just came up looks farther in the camera but it's really not that far out there where he is so pretty cool I changed my mind that would really run for a long video so I'm gonna call this day one right Monk yeah monkey came back and rescued me as you saw got my little bivvy set up I thought one of the poles broke yeah maybe it just popped it just pulled out I think but it didn't break I mean it's set up so yeah yeah there's some people camping there in a tent and then there's that guy's got a nice set up is that a toy order yeah of course shut up the best we can't we can't down there well man you can man you guys I keep thinking this is frigging animal today and log yeah they got a nice set up there but yeah back there my first solo camp out wasn't on the boat yeah well not on a boat but I took the boat there and we set the hammock up there yeah other hammock so but this one conclude day one right Monk yep and I'll catch you guys tomorrow well whenever get it uploaded cuz you know I don't know if I'll be out here Sunday night to or not but more than likely monkey monkey's already going well we could do this so we could do that I'm like we well I mean next weekend cuz I do have it reserved for next weekend too so but if you know if anything I can always do a solo next weekend whatever right no cuz I'm not setting that big tent up for one or two nights well I'll be here the next time and it'll be up for three days no I'm not doing that I'm not doing a solo in a six person tent so anyway you can do it this weekend I'll leave you alone yeah right no anyway okay whatever I'm not gonna argue anyway guys I'm trying to do my outro here so anyway I will see you guys in the next video but that's what's going on impromptu camp out I'm on the yep so yeah it does cuz I was like hey wait a minute she was like what I said I got reserved for tonight where out the cucumber no so we should go and check it out okay all right guys she better admit the man legend gone for now have a great weekend y'all see you soon bye bye and take care


For almost 2,000 years the dominant ideas of how things move came from Aristotle and he described two kinds of motion. He described natural motion and violent motion. Now the natural motion of something was what it would do if it was left to its own devices and there were five kinds of things in the universe according to the Aristotelian point of view. So the idea was that everything below the moon was made up of the four elements earth, air, fire and water and they all had a natural motion that was at rest just still and on the ground. So the earth would be in the bottom then the water then fire then air and the idea was that the aether made up everything that was in the night sky so stars planets the sun all those kinds of things and then natural motion was to move and stay in the sky and then violent motion was everything that you would do to make something behave against its natural motion. So for example if you throw a rock which is mainly made of earth the natural motion is for it to be at rest and on the ground and you have to apply some force to it in order to make it move. Now I don't want to go into enormous detail about Aristotelian physics because all of it is wrong but it doesn't look so wrong at first glance. So for example it's hard to know whether things are made up of earth, air, fire and water or atoms because we haven't seen either of those things and it's hard to know whether things weigh up in the night sky are made of something else because we haven't been there and also this idea of things having a natural motion at rest and on the ground that's incredibly intuitive it's intuitive because all the things I see when I look out my window are at rest and on the ground with the possible exception of a fountain of water and that water is dripping down because it was pumped up there so someone imparted some violent motion to get it up there and then pretty shortly afterwards it's at rest and down in that pool. Look around the room now you probably see a large number of objects and they're probably at rest and sitting on things or on the ground.


Okay, thank you for this invitation and for allowing me to speak to you. I will give in this presentation a reflection on how to include social science into computational models. And I do this from my experience in the last 25 years in working in different disciplines and I'm trained as a mathematician but worked mainly in the social sciences. So I may make some statements, especially about social science that might be a little bit exaggerated. So but I want to make some points that may help you put a little bit black and white sometimes. So the outline is that I give some background to this context. Brief history about integrated models of humans and the environment. Then a discussion of some challenges in the social, getting social science represented in integrated models. And I provide two examples in which I work with social scientists in Molling-Hunter-Garders and about what the message connects to the city and I conclude and I'm not familiar with your culture but I hope to have some discussion. So far there have been only folks so I hope to have some discussion. So why do I have the title to Molling-Cultures? It refers to a famous essay by C. P. Snow entitled Two Cultures. And that essay is from about six years ago. It's referred to these distinct cultures between the humanities and the sciences. And he argued that they were quite distinct communities where we're not really interacting with each other. So this essay got a lot of critique. But and I'm not arguing that the natural and the social science are completely separate. But I think it's useful to realize that if you want to interact with the social science they may have quite different practices and as least that's how I experienced it. And that might be good to know if you start or want to work across these different areas. For example, a lot of social sciences are not trained, are not familiar with quantitative methods or are opposed to use any quantitative or using mathematical tools to explore their scientific activities. And I will come to that and there are good reasons for that. So here I give in a way a perspective to Molling-Cultures as if they are in the social and natural sciences. So my background is in a way I rely on my background to make this thing because I experienced these cultures in the hard way. So I hope that you may learn something of that. So my training is an operational research. I worked when I was doing my PhD in a group on integrated assessment Molling. And there was not much social science that was more kind of the natural science group, the image group, the well-known integrated assessment model. Then I got more interested in the social science to start working more in economics, environmental economics, and then in political and behavioral economics. And then I got a tenure-track position in anthropology, the Department of Anthropology, while I had never took a course in anthropology myself. So you can become a professional anthropology without having any preparation for that. But the department was transforming to a school which was more interdisciplinary and my higher was part of that. So I got the culture shock there too. I got tenure there and came from out to the professor. But now I'm in the school sustainability where we have no idea. It doesn't matter what background you have. So by moving around these different disciplines, I have experienced that there are quite a lot of differences in how people approach the use of mathematics. And so I teach typically mathematics or computational methods to social scientists and to ecologists. And so that leads to an interesting discussion. So I give now a brief discussion of some integrated models. So I think some of you may know this, but it gives a kind of context of where I come from. So in the early 70s, it was a well-known study on limits to growth, the Valtry model, which is kind of one of the first integrated models of human and natural systems. Although you may argue there's not really much natural systems. Social scientists will argue there's not much social, but at least it was a first attempt to bridge the different components. This is a figure where they also included data. Let's see what I can point to this. But the data which you see here are the actual data. So this is not from the study of 72. These are some results. They reruns them in recent years. And it shows that the kind of predictions about the verse not aimed to be a predictive model, but the doom scenario, we are still on track. There were many different scenarios in that publication, including a stabilization scenario. That scenario is not possible anymore, given the current trajectory. So this model was not aimed for making predictions. They had a lot of different scenarios, but the doom scenario mainly stuck. This study got a lot of critique. And the main critique was that there were a lot of assumptions that were really kind of expressing the subjective subjectivity of the models themselves. One interesting paper by Bill Northhouse, which we will see later, was the measuring without data. Bill Northhouse is an economist and he argued that there was no economics in this model. So that was, of course, an important challenge. There is another interesting book where they show that a lot of the results were driven by the assumptions they made you. There are a lot of uncertainties and you can make choices in the assumptions. And a lot of the outcomes were driven by the assumptions they made. I think that Dennis Meadows and his colleagues, they knew a lot of these issues and they therefore explored a lot of different scenarios. But these kind of doom scenarios stick to the broader audience. I think this model was very useful as an eye opener. It was not aimed to be a kind of predictive, detailed, human-environmental systems model. There have been a number of follow-ups, which were more regionalized versions. But the next major step in integrated modeling was the development of integrated assessment models. There are two different types of brands, as I see that. So this is a picture of the image model, the group I was working in. So you see that on the left, the human component is basically input. The input is the economic development, the technology assumptions about technology and the demographics. Those are not influenced by the environmental system. They are more or less exogenous inputs to the system that generates emissions and are inputs to some integration of simplified versions of the earth system dynamics.  But the human component is very limited. So I got interested by working in this group to say, why are humans not represented? So that's why I got more interested in getting into the human component, because they were not in that area of research. There's also another type of integrated assessment modeling. Wetz is more coming from economics. He received Bill Northhouse again, who was complaining about World Tree Model. He had developed a very well-known integrated assessment model that is used a lot.  And in the typical models in economics, they calculate the optimal policy for the next 200 years, assuming that the representative agents have full understanding and full knowledge of the system and full control of the system. So there are very tight feedbacks between the actions and the impact. And of course, a lot of these underlying dynamics are highly simplified and highly aggregated. But the model has been very influential in policy. So these two types of integrated assessment models, which were kind of starting in the 1990s, they in a way, and I left this kind of field in the late 90s, but I think there's still the same issues at the moment. And when we had this meeting a year ago, it was kind of a deja vu from my dissertation work, because 20 years later, there's still the same debate between the kind of people working on human components and on the natural science components. So can we capture the complexity of both the social and environmental systems? I think that's one of our aims. And I think there are a lot of reasons why there's still this divide. And I think it also has a lot to do about the interaction between the disciplines. But I try to provide one, give one example of what I did in my dissertation, as I tried to use some at that time, when I did my dissertation, where new tools coming out of complex adaptive systems to represent agents who are able to learn and adapt. And so I combined elements of the image model and the dais model. And so I had the economics of the dais model and the climate system of the image model. And I had agents who are actually had something that might be controversial today, they learned from facts. So that is so that that was a kind of crude assumption. And sometimes it's really good to do money if you don't know much about a particular field. But I assume that that that agents will learn from facts. And and so I could explore different situations. What if the climate system was sensitive to the emissions? It was high climate sensitivity. Then the agents will experience a climate change more rapidly. And they may that may lead to a lower emission level. So a lower emission level go see with a higher temperature change because they cannot adapt fast enough. But if the climate sensitivity is very low, there's not much reason to adapt and you will lead to higher emissions. So this is an example of a kind of a more kind of integrated more. The agents are reacting to the environment system. But we made up a lot of what we were doing because we didn't really capture much. We didn't really understand much about social science. So but I got interested in these age-based models to explore that. What would that mean for these kind of climate integrated models? So I will say a little bit more about the human component. So some of you may think that, well, economics has been addressed. So we already addressed the human component. That might be true, but there are a lot of issues with economics. And that's also within economics. There has been a lot of discussion in economics about the kind of mulling they are doing, especially since the economic crisis 2008 has been a lot of debates about the way economies represent economic system. So this is by Nobel Laureate in economics, Paul Krugman, why economists get so wrong. Also, models, integrated assessment models by economists are criticized a lot. So this is an interesting abstract. What do the integrated models tell us? Very little. And if you go to more, they say, well, these models have crucial flaws that make them close to useless as tools of policy analysis. This is published in one of the leading journals in economics. So also within economics, the type of models they are using are criticized a lot. It's recognized that there are a lot of challenges. So if we want to include social science, what do we include? So there are a lot of other fields of social science. And last year, Jay mentioned that you had no idea that there were so many different disciplines in the social science. And there are a lot of different social science people ask when they people see that I work in social science.  No, I'm not a sociologist. There are many different branches in social science. And they all do their own things. They have their own different theories, their own approaches. So they have different types of areas in economics and psychology, anthropology, sociology, all kind of other fields like history of philosophy. And so, but most of them are not as much involved in using quantitative models. So that's one of the challenges. The economics is very much more focusing and quantifying the work using mathematical models. So another issue is that if people read about social sciences, well, these are the results of the social science studies are quite obvious, which is true if you knew the answer. So, Duncan Watts wrote a very nice book about this issue. Duncan Watts is a physicist who became a sociologist. People may know him from the Small World Network research. So he did PhD in physics and became a sociology professor and now works for Microsoft. And typically, because of a lot of the uncertainties, a lot of the context related phenomena in what social scientists are studying, which I express typically in narratives in qualitative data, they have not very precise predictions. And so there might be alternative explanations, but they are kind of more more kind of general statements than very precise predictions. So, even if there are alternatives, if you are able to identify what is the most logical explanation that explanation sounds very obvious. So, one of the examples that Duncan Watts mentioned is why is the Mona Lisa painting the most famous painting in the world? Well, that may be because it's the quality of the painting or it is an accident. And I will leave it up for you to read the book. Of course, the answer is obvious, but I will leave it up to you to read what is the answer. So, what are the chances for the Mona? So, there are many different theories. In the United States, they like to disagree with each other, like to debate, and they are not have the culture to work together to develop this kind of more general theory of the studies they do. Ten years are often depending on writing a single authored book. So, it's less a culture of collaboration and contesting and building up this research and contesting each other's theories. A lot of the theories are qualitative, expressed in narratives, and so that makes it hard for Malas to use. Basically, we have to interpret, we have to translate the narratives into algorithmic expressions. So, that becomes a kind of subjective exercise. And a lot of the social science, they will argue that there's a lot of importance of the experience. You can only know something if you have experienced it and it's depending on the context, interpretation, what's the meaning, and that becomes very challenging in expressing it in algorithmic statements. And you may not have a model of human systems that you develop that could be applied in all parts of the world. So, what to do? So, some advice might be to take into account the diversity of the different theories that you acknowledge that there are a lot of, that you accept the subjective, that this is a subjective enterprise, and that you focus on some specific questions. So, I will now briefly show two examples to show the way we try to include these social dynamics. So, one is about hunting off by a chase. So, this is working with anthropologists. So, I worked with Kim Hill, who was an anthropologist, worked for 30 years in the Amazon, studying the hunter goddess, the hunt with them, et cetera. He had an enormous amount of data. And so, when you start working on a model, he had hours, many hours of anecdotes, how they chased the armadillos, and so this is all fine, but it doesn't help me to develop a model. And so, I secretly developed a very simple random walk model and then showed it to him and said, so what needs to be added to make it more in line with that we need to a better model. The model had, was in a very high resolution, kind of things that we are doing 60,000 cells. And we created a flow diagram of the decisions which fits very much in line with optimal fortune theory. So, it was kind of grounded in theory, but then contextualized to the case of the Ache and Paraguay. I will not go much into the details because of the time, but we had different levels of the model. So, we started with very simple random walk models. We included that they are in different camps, which moves every day and then they start moving through the forest more in a coordinated fashion. And even if they are, for some species, hunt together and we could increase the complexity, we could get better performance. So, but I had to force this process by providing a very simple version of the model so that my colleague could be more, yeah, express things that needs to be included makes more sense. We could then use this model to look at what is the optimal group size and actually the optimal group size was very much in line with what was observed. And if we could also, so what the Ache actually act in this landscape but would be an optimal case. So, on the reason that we do this kind of modeling of the undergarters that we are now developing a model in South Africa about 100,000 years where we don't have direct observations, of course, and that will be a more complex environment. But we can test different ways these ancestors have been moving around the landscape and interact with the landscape. And in the last few minutes, I would like to talk about urban water in Mexico City, which is a much more complicated situation on the goddess. Now we get into politics. That is very difficult to put into some equations. So a lot about flooding water scarcity. One reason why there is flooding is that Mexico City is built in a lake. So while the lake is not there anymore, but if it rains, it still end up in the center of Mexico City. And there is water scarcity because a lot of places don't have pipe water. And so there are major problems there. And so we have a large NSF project in which we try to integrate different components of the problem we look at. There are some hydrological models, some climate models, some growth models. And me and a poster focus on more the kind of policy environment. That's the age-based model where we focus on the interaction of the water authority with the neighborhoods. So the process here is that we have the water authority. They have the priorities. They have their mental models about what is important for where to invest. Do we invest to prevent flooding or to invest in to reduce water scarcity? And then these decision trees affect the landscape in the different neighborhoods, like 2,000 neighborhoods. And there are flooding events related to water scarcity that will have output impact of the neighborhoods. So neighborhoods may adapt, so neighborhoods may protest, and that will affect the actions of the water authority again. We exclude a lot of the elements that social scientists found important. We exclude all the informal economy. We don't include corruption. And so if I talk about this to social science, they're all upset because I didn't include all the important elements. So we focus really on some very specific elements about the interaction of the water authority and the neighborhoods about what they invest in the infrastructure. And the infrastructure then interact with the biophysical system. So we now have some initial version of the model that we are starting to discuss with stakeholders. Stakeholders are the water authority, but also neighborhoods. And we are actually next week we are doing some of the, we start doing some of these validation activities. We have some initial results about if we simulate this over the next 20 years, which areas do we expect to have more investments, which areas will have more water scarcity. And this will be done used in an interactive way with stakeholders. So to conclude, so a lot of social scientists qualitative and a lot of the theories are described as narratives. And so if you want to translate from these narratives to these algorithmic statements, you have to, this requires some subjective interpretation. So you make some points about predictive models. We don't really like to talk about predictive models in the social science that at least not for a lot of the things that we are doing for some issues you can do. But typically we want to explore a lot of different possibilities, explore a lot of the assumptions on the underlying different theories. And if you want to work with with the social scientists, I think it's important to really put in time to understand also what the social scientists want to. What is the importance of the social sciences to to represent in the malls. What is the interest for the social science to be involved in in the projects that you are working on, because they may have very different questions than we typically have. And that interaction may take years to really understand each other. At least that is my experience. And maybe I have one or two questions that I can take. Okay, thank you. That was great. Thank you. So, a while ago, after the Brexit, there was a lot of criticism of the Bank of England. Is there anybody from Britain here? Good. So if I could just go wrong, don't hesitate to correct me. Okay. This is kind of subtle, I think. So the Bank of England come out a lot of criticism for getting the model wrong. They sort of joined the cadre of these economists who are not able to model the future. And so there's an interview on the radio with the, you know, the guy in charge, Canadian, I can't remember his name. And he said, the model was not wrong. It's just that when the Brexit happened, when the vote was to leave Europe, and the UK economy was about to go down a tank. They had to invest a lot of money, a lot of new money basically into the economy, and a lot. I can't remember how much, but it's on the order of the billions and pounds. Now that wasn't in the model because they're not allowed to to think about what they might do if the outcome was of a particular direction. So that type of caveat, I guess you could call it. You put that into a model when when economists, particularly those who are highly regulated, like the chairman of Bank of England, they themselves can't put those into the model. How do you, how do you do that? So I was involved in some of the IPC scenario exercises and also there we got scenarios that we were told not to to to use in a way we got some results that were not acceptable, like that some parts of the world will really go down in some of the scenarios. So yes, there is a lot of politics involved in that way in some of these social science applications. So I don't know about this case in the UK, but I know a lot of these economic models are when they are used in practice, they are not literally you using the models, it's a lot of the qualitative understanding of the system to when they are giving advice. So that that has always been the case since they start using econometric models. So that's, so it's in the social science very common as well. Yes, you have a model but don't rely too much on it. There's a lot of qualitative understanding that we are not including. But then that is not always known beyond the way those those fields out is how these models are used. I'm Lawrence Buzha at the National Center for Atmospheric Research I run a group that interfaces between social and physical sciences. And this isn't a question is so much as a challenge for next year's program to have the same talk given by a social science.  What I found working with social scientists is that their theoretical basis just as deep as on the physics side and as an interface group I I'm always asking the social scientists, give me frameworks that let us work on this boundary that are so simple that even a physicist can understand them. I really love to hear this talk from a social sciences perspective next year. So whoever doing the program please think about that. Thank you. Hi Stephanie Kane I'm a cultural anthropologist. I'm wondering, it seems like complexity is the biggest obstacle in the modeling problem and I'm, I'm hoping to hear in the next few days if we can build flexibility into your model, rather than complexity, so that taking the example. Let's say the water management is the head guy is a corrupt guy. And he's saying I'm not giving water to these four neighborhoods or these 25 neighborhoods. That could be modeled in if you had access to that kind of information. Is it possible to build models such that once you get some information from on the ground and you know, what is the most relevant thing that you can factor rather than just sort of give it up and say, oh my God, this is social sciences to complex and then picking an arbitrary, which then gets called subjective parameter to include. Well, I don't think I disagree with that arbitrary is the same as subjective but so if we will know what the consequences if we had the idea of this is what the consequence will be of this corruption as opposed we can include it but we are trying to include the decision making of these water authorities for the next 2050 years so we cannot rely on on what we observe today by some individuals so that's why we have to model some processes and we purposely try to keep it as simple as possible to to make it to keep it transparent so it's not a predictive but we can use it with the different stakeholders so that they get an idea of what will be the consequence if you are combining these different simple rules of the neighborhoods of the water authorities and the biophysical system together. That is something that that people had not a good overview it if you combine them together and what will be the long term effect. But yes, we purposely keep it as simple as possible so that it is transparent and so that's maybe my mathematical background that we tried to keep it as simple, but it's not aimed as a predictive model. I think you that are for you you the modeling is only one of the different elements using this process. So that's that's I think also we should not over focus maybe focus too much on the modeling and some of our applications. This is about modeling so I was trying to jump into that but I think what you're doing is you're picking an arbitrary scale into the future and then and then making things simpler in the present. And that may or may not be relevant for the people that you're, you're trying to work with, but I disagree with the words arbitrage, they are not arbitrage. But in a complex world when you're choosing one or two or three things to put in the model, I would say is an ethnographer that I would want to talk to people who live there, or talk to someone who knows about the people who live there and then decide what my choice is going to be. And so then my model has to be flexible enough to be able to incorporate some of these things that I might not have sort of pulled in on before, but this is like three days.