The morning after Tuesday morning, April 2nd, lucky, you know, we made it through yesterday. I know. It was full shooting. And, but, we have a gentleman with us from the house, and I thought we would go through the timber as the bill. And so before we start, she had their bill introduce ourselves and into that. No, I shouldn't forget, you know, I need to. So, by a column or representing the Rotland district. I remember sitting in North, including for us. Right. Happy in Vanishing County. Richie Westman is working on. I don't know if I'm appropriate. It's got to do. I'm Bobby star. Welcome you to the committee. This bill. When it got over here. Went to the Senate Judiciary Committee. That committee felt their fight was pretty full. And that a lot of this timber just passed. That happened on woodland or ag land and, and a lot of farmers don't. Lumber people on this woodland. Yeah, so he asked us to take a look at it. Review it. And, you know, work on it. So this is our first attempt. Well, thank you. Chairman star and thank you committee. And thank you. Your administrator for the invitation for the record. My name is Jed Lipsky. I'm the representative from the world. One district which is still. And for background. I've been a professional independent login contractor for over 50 years. I am. A certified leap. A lot of. I am a certified master lot or certified by the. North. I'm a member of Montfort. Association. I'm a board member of the. I'm a member of the. New newly expanded professional login contractors at the Northeast. I'm a met. And I am a board member of the northeastern loggers association, which is actually headquartered. I am a member of the northeastern loggers association. And I'm a board member of the northeastern loggers association. The old fortune York, but includes Pennsylvania, Maryland. New York, and all things like that. In states. You know, I've been active, not just professionally, but as an advocate for active forest management. And so that's. Some of my background. 14 is an act to protect victims, landowners who have experienced what's now called land fraud or tuber trust pass. There's a difference between unintentional timber trust pass where there may be poorly marked boundary line and a contractor might have cut over a boundary, not intentionally confronts their mistake and negotiates appropriate reparation with either the force to represent a landowner or a landowner, but this is targeting a whole another class of crime that's actually done a great deal of damage, not moderate damage to landowners most emotionally and financially. And I could give you an example of this or a few if you'd like and Bobby if you'll just guide me, I can walk you through the bill, I can talk about some examples of why I think this is important and I'll take guidance from you. If you want five minutes, three minutes or 15 minutes, I'm happy to try to make our case. We need to understand the severity of it and the differences like intentional and nonintentional and what you folks have done over on the health side, although then we can read for, you know, the finding. Thank you. So I'm going to start with a background to give you sort of a picture of what it's like to be a victim and also how frustrating it's been. In my more background, I think, you know, transparency and accuracy matters in everything. But I was a little shocked, I was actually at a meeting with the professional contractors of the Northeast and we zoomed into meeting with the speaker and I was going to pick up the truck and the executive director of the Northeast Forestry Products, the Northeast Logger Association was there and also a logger from Orange County was a former deputy commissioner of Forestry Protection. And when we reached out to the speaker and our staff, she allowed, what are you doing about timber trust pass and that may have been in September when this conversation came after the zoom and the conversation ensued, not that none of us knew what timber trust pass was, but the crisis that had been brought to the speaker and that was a representative from, I think it was Marshfield, Plainfield Mahalik and we immediately reached out to him and wanted to get an understanding of why this was in the forefront. And in fact, he talked about some experiences he's had from frustrated stenchers. And in one case, there's a constituent for six and a half years now, had his land logged in violation of a verbal agreement, never received payment for any of the timber taken off this land and it wasn't, he had two of butters, one on each side. They all agreed that this would be a good thing and a source of revenue. The first property owner who was harvested on received payment for maybe 10, one or two loads and the next loads were never paid for. This other complainant had at least 10 loads, log trailer loads, takeoff is probably never received the timing and the third butter experienced the same thing. So they went to the local police, you know, this is out of our jurisdiction. They went to FPR. We do not have the staff work to handle this. So they went to the state police, same story. They went to the state's attorney, same story. And if I tell you what it's like in this, these are all older folks have their, have been managing this part of their survival fixed incomes, some next veterans, but what if it was another example of someone up in your neck in the woods, Jeremy Starr in Orleans County, who was an out of state owner, came back, found his land stripped, went to the local authorities and he said, I think I know who it is.  Yes, I did. Did you have permission to go on his land and cut his trees? No, I didn't. Did you ever remunerate or pay this owner for any of the wood that you told him? No, I did not. So full confessions and zero action from any law enforcement. And there were other, I'll give you one other example, just so you can understand the sort of viciousness of the peace line of action. There was another out of state owner who had their land in current use, a youth appraisal assessment program came and found that a portion way beyond what was approved was harvested as well. And these people had the funds to hire an attorney, take the perpetrator to court and found a favorable result in the court, which not only charged the timber thief, you know, a triple stunk of value. And to this day, that person is recovered, not one US dollar. Why does this happen? And these aren't the only three examples in Vermont. We took hours, days of testimony on this in our committee. And there is a theme. And as I stated, some of my resume and history as a professional law contractor, I want to state for the record, that most law and contrast spent my life working with her great integrity, great responsibility for managing the resource and the environment and water quality and wildlife habitat and songbird habitat and outdoor recreation. We have a lot on our shoulders today. And in order to survive in tough climate resiliency times, as well as economic times, it's a lot of responsibility. But as an organization, or as a community, both the Vermont Forest Products Association and the professional law and contracts that are all supported this bill, there is a scourge, there are criminals all over the world, or crack hearts get hacked or everything. There's no limit. But this is something that's been going on far too long. And I just want to point out, we had state police, we had FDR, and we finally had the attorney general's office and the state district attorney office, state's attorneys, all come in and testify. And they all believe that the wording of this bill, land fraud, sounds like a weird concept. But in this case, it clearly ties an additional area of fraud to intentional timber trespass and gives the responsibility for the attorney's general office to prosecute. So that the office of the attorney general shall consult with the department of forest and fire. But you're actually giving the authority to prosecute right to the broad division of the attorney general's office. Yes. So with that background, which was not brief, I could walk you through the bill, the sort of the summary section by section, if you would like. And this is, and I just want to acknowledge that Mahali, who I referenced earlier, it came into the room and frankly credited him with the fact, his advocacy to stop the scourge. And the scourge is just is being promulgated by predator criminals. They targeted individuals that are older, absentee, or the most vulnerable. Yeah, maybe. And Mark, Keith, are you blended on your time that morning? I'm okay. And so I get yanked back into appropriations to both. And I don't know when that is. So you think you've got time to sit through this, or do you want to give us a little bit on appropriations bill and go back to committee? Why don't I speak briefly before you go through the bill? Yeah, that's okay. It was repetitive. It's gonna be my honor. Thank you. Then you can be excused, or I can sit here till I get yanked. And it's more fun to hear them. That's a comfortable chair. I don't know if you know. No, I actually have not personally said hello to anybody. I recognize the face. Yeah, Brian Collamore representing the Rutland District. Brian, pleasant to meet you. I know, because we're in the same class. I can't be in Bennington County. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. I remember so much. I'm not Orleans County. A pleasure. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm Mark McCauley for the record. I represent Plainfield Marshfield in Calis. I got hauled into a meeting of about a half dozen of my constituents and discovered a problem that I frankly didn't even know existed, which is rather pervasive predatory fraud against people. Very careful who they pick. For example, people who have foresters, because they have land in current use. They tend to stay away from people. They're very good at it. And they knock on your door and say, we're in the neighborhood. And it's such a Vermont thing to trust. And people say, well, yeah, how about that bunch of trees over there? And they'll say, okay. And then they'll go cut them down and stay and cut a lot more. And then say, oh, but we'll pay you. And sometimes when people say, get off my property, they drag them physically. And they don't pay them ever. And then they get sometimes, as you know, it takes money to hire a lawyer and go through that. And a lot of people still have it. They sue. And as you heard, they're successful. They get a judgment. And not only that, there have been actions against these people over the years where they have fines. Well, when you get fined in Vermont, when you don't pay, it just turned over to a collection agency. The collection agency sent them the S-11. These people just don't pay for that. They don't pay. They don't pay. They don't pay their fines. They don't pay their judgments. And it worked. And so the only thing I want to add to what Representative Lewis, he said, or at least what I heard he said this, is I really made an attempt here because of the advice I got from waters, wonderful people. I mean, really honorable, great people. I resisted after Christmas tree this with requirements that waters register, that they license, that, you know, things like that. There are various things out there to regulate the lot of the community. I just felt like this bill, why punish all the good actors? And so the bill, the bill is about as narrow as we could make it. Well, I, it went through a house agriculture, which did spend a lot of time. And I really praise that they heard a lot of people talk. We worked, I met with the Attorney General and, you know, their office. And at their, a lot of this is at their suggestion. Then it went to judiciary, briefly ways for judiciary. I will say there was one aspect of the way it came out of the house, then as, you know, not entirely thrilled with, I just want to mention, I believe the only way that we can get to bad actors like this is not buy more fines, it's not money, they just don't pay. It's either jails or seizing their equipment. I was saying, Mr. Chair, that I don't, I think the best way to get to these bad actors is either by putting them in jail or seizing their equipment. In fact, I think if we did that, we wanted to do that, but the words get around. The jail time is definitely a possibility under the bills. You have it. There were a few people in judiciary who were uncomfortable with the seizure and they, I think the suit are 50 months, but they took it out. The seizure part, if they're kind of operators that we know they are, they probably don't own the equipment either. Right. You know, it's either that or they're behind on their payments or using seizing something that's really not of any value. You're right. And that's why the original provision, we met with the community of people here from the state who work at seizures. The original provided that if the equipment is seized, it can be sold unless someone demonstrates that someone else owns the property and they are not related in any way by corporate form or by family with their defendant. They have to show and they do not know nor could they have known by an objective standard how the equipment was going to be used. And if they can't show that too bad, they'll get it. And I get it was raised, a member of the committee raised exactly your issue and said, well, what about rental? What if they rent the equipment? And we thought that through and realized that if a rental agency really could show that they had no way of knowing, which is a little unlikely, then they would get the equipment back. But they'd never be able to rent it to these people again, because their name is on a list, they've been prosecuted and they know. So we felt like, hey, the problem that actually that was in the committee of procedure was it's a big thing to see. This is big equipment. The HE was saying, I don't know that we would ever do it. And I guess our feeling was, well, try it. You know, all you have to do is do it once. And then it's a word to get out. But there were a number of people on the committee who felt they just don't like Caesar generally. Because they think that the proceeds of seizure go to law enforcement and law enforcement becomes self-motivated. So the way to deal with that and the chair of the Judiciary Committee representative LeLon was considering that is just to provide that the seizure of this kind of, in this situation goes to the victims and the proceeds of sale. But it was near the end of the time it was communicated. And he just thought another time and left it out. I wish personally we hadn't left it out. But aside from that, I'm thrilled that it's gotten this far. And I'd be happy in the future to answer any questions that you might have, either an email or I think you're in the right direction. These people, the only thing they really have is time. And if you take the time away from them, they're really not doing well. So I mean, it's sad to say, but that means putting them in jail and take their time away for a moment. And because most of them, I've had them come over on my property, but bought it really quick. But they have two nickels to rub together.   But you've got to know that they're cutting, too. Is there anything in the bill where property owners, when they are cutting, has to notify the abiding landowners? That's not in the bill. There's protections. There was a concern on the part of the number of the loggers. They really, the professional loggers northeast wanted to make sure that you couldn't just inadvertently get caught by logging on a neighbor's logger and logging on a neighbor's property because they didn't know where the boundary was. And so what we did is we changed the standard of proof. And really, the most draconian parts of the bill, there are a few draconian parts deliberately. Specifically, if you have two strikes, that it's two fines or judgments, that you have not a, you have undained fines and judgments, at least two, you can't go on logging unless you post a $500,000, $250,000 bond or you're working for a legit logging outfit that you don't own and your mom doesn't own and your sister doesn't own. And that's in the bill, yeah. What does it cost to get a $250,000 bond? It's, I think probably north of $10,000. Okay. So what that, we just don't think that's not what's going to happen. But what it does is it means that all these people who have unpaid judgments and unpaid fines, it sweeps them in and says to them, you can't log unless you go work for somebody else. And if you do, it's a chronic pain. So a lot of this was trying to figure out with the AG, how do we tweak things so that it's easier for law enforcement? So with the bill, if there's a violation, it goes to the attorney general's office, it doesn't go to FPR or the state police or- It's either the AG or state attorney. I mean, part of the problem honestly in the past has been, I mean, some of us are going to have to carry out some education here because when people call up the state's attorneys very often, they say, well, of course, they're overwhelmed, but they say, this is a civil matter, hire your lawyer, you know. And so this is making it very clear this is a criminal matter. It's theft. And a lot of it, one woman who testified about met exactly your description. She's very elderly. It's a woman. They took $200,000 worth of timber off the land and she received not a dime.  It's, I think it's actually a little more pervasive than we know. Yeah. The only way to kind of prevent that is on all the land from the river to the road, to the other road and to the road that way.  But have you ever heard, either of you, of anybody getting paid for this cutting practice where they just take the wood and run? Not that I know of. No one. I know the only judgments that I'm aware of were violations of AMPs where they drop grease into a water body and the landowner received heavy fines, but the landowner was never reimbursed. Now, I think that this is an important, there's a notion of salt in the wound. Let's say you have had your timber stolen in violation of contract and you have had, for a generation or two, your land in the use value appraisal system, also known as current use, where you, all of a sudden, you find yourself in violation of an approved forest plan. So your punishment is to have your current use removed. So not only did you get zero for your resource that you've been counting on, now you lose the tax value save because you're in violation. And that's what I call the salt in the wound. If you are doubled up, but by these acts. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So how many generations have to go by before that loss, if you will, is sort of back on track? In other words, trees grow at a certain pace. Is it two, three, four, or five generations? I mean, how long does it take to get a tax where it was? There are a lot of factors that go into that, but it's multiple generations. You know, particularly hardwood, softwood, 30 years, 25, 30. To a mature, merchantable size, it's longer. And there's another factor. When you went engage in a contract with a legitimate logger, there are closeout responsibilities. You have to put in infrastructure, water, bars, protect soils, other resource, residual, stand. And then you have very clear responsibilities and closeout of the contract responsible for making sure the main skid roads are open, free of debris. There's no tops near waterways or veins or property lines or any number of, in some cases, and this affects the value, the sum that value a landowner would receive. They may want some areas shipped or so there's not a lot of debris.  And when you have acres and acres of tops that are not lobbed, it may take 15 years for them to decompose and be part of the soil. So your woods, you've lost them for recreation, for hiking, for hunting. So the carnage, if you're a victim of this sort of crime, nobody's, the thief did not have any good intentions in mind. So the damage is, say, permanent is not in perpetuity, but it's a half a century to a century and a quarter to get back to. So is there anything in the bill or did the Ag 8 committee consider a provision? I don't want to say this the right way, that if the logger brings, in essence, stolen timber to a processor, that processor cannot get paid or the logger can't get paid until the owner of the timber signs off on it? Yes, Senator. If I, I think that Ratma Ali made a clear decision about understands the law adding land fraud and timber trespass to criminal status went through the seizure and forfeiture eases, which were a disappointment to us as well. But I could go in depth of why it's complicated. You have the 77,000 pound machine, you have to hire a low boy, you have to store it somewhere, you have to know how to start it, you have to know how to load it. Very complicated. But to your point, I section 8 of the bill has passed by the House. It's called implementation, some are calling conditions of operation. Section 8 provides the requirement under 13 VSA, 3605, the person convicted 10th best pass goes on about the the penalties and being on a basically a black. They don't see anything after section 4. We're looking at it as passed by the House and we only have five seconds. Is that possible? Are you looking at a different version? Well, how about the Attorney General report on timber trespassing force? Yeah, that's section 4 at the bottom of page 9. Okay. Well, that requires, this is important, and to answer your question, requires the Attorney General to submit to the General Assembly a report regarding the current enforcement of timber trespassing within the state and potential methods of improving enforcement. The report shall include one, a summary of the current issues pertaining enforcement of timber trespassing statutes, two, summary of mechanisms or alternative use in other states. First, effectively enforce or prevent timber theft or similar crimes. And three, recommendation for programs, policy changes, staffing and budget estimates to improve enforcement and prevention, ensure consumer protection and reduce the illegal harvesting theft and transporting of timber in the state, including proposed statutory changes to implement these recommendations. So that gives them approximately one year to get back. And there were, for instance, members of FPR, Forest Vermont Woodlands Association, special item contractors from Vermont, along with state's attorneys and Attorney General participate in the development of a report back as to, rather than get bogged down, this bill died because, you know, Ferret Mahali and frankly, me personally and our committee, our industry, we needed to drive the stake in the grounds and give law enforcement to us. Okay. So that's why there will be professionals that will take a deep dive into all possible ways, whether it's tickets or track and trace, you know, where there's a paper trail where that particular load from that property on the left, which I expect in the future will help flesh out the effectiveness. But I do agree with Ferret Mahali. When you get with this bill on a blacklist of two strikes of untaid judgments or fines, you are not able to work. And we spoke to law enforcement but with state police, you know, the backlog of, you know, untried cases. We have a very dysfunctional crisis in the judiciary in our state. And they're saying there are murders, there are wounds, raids, very violent crimes that take a priority. And I'm sorry, folks, but Timber theft or land fraud is on the list, but they're not the top of the list. So that's the reality we live in. And that's why it was so important that this bill in this form was so. So you get on the West. How does Mrs. Sorenson find the West? How does a person know where to go to find the West? Who's going to do the education of getting the word out there? I just with Mr. Chair, if I might, there's some value to that list that I don't want to exaggerate it. The value is once you're on the list, no one can rent equipment to you because they either know or should know what's happening. Number one, number two, to get on that list means you can't log anywhere yourself. But in terms of the point you made, my personal view is that none of these victims are going to go look at that list. Some of them don't have much less inclination to use it. So it's valuable. It should be done. And it has a value, but I don't think it will help the individual. The only thing that's going to help the individuals is to get these people out of doing what they're doing. I've turned it to a long word. I've made the point that the two organizations in Vermont that are leaders in the forest products and logging industry have both unanimously supported this effort. Nobody wants this kind of black mark on their industry. And FPR is aware of it. And they, education, whether it's Mont Woodlands Magazine, The Northern Logger, which is published by Northeast Southern Logger Association. There are articles about this. It's not odd. But the education pieces, there may be recommendations in this report on timber trespass enforcement and recommendations that come forth if this becomes law. Yeah. My name was suggestion and asking the question was if I'm a bad actor and I know I'm not going to get paid until the owner of that timber signs off. It might make me hesitate. That's all. But I'm sure you considered that. Well, you know, frankly, it's not just the viciousness. But as Brett Mahali said, these folks are clever. They might ship these logs to one yard, put them on another truck. Some go to Canada. Some go to out of state. We're just saying that you're on the order.  That's a very interesting suggestion. Actually, fairly early on in the drafting, we were kind of attracted by the idea of requiring that the lumber yards that saw mills themselves not do something where they couldn't pay these guys.  They just go to New Hampshire or Canada and they already do and they split the loads up. Yeah. So we thought about that. I think it would be great if we were a little bigger, maybe. Of course, self-contained. This whole, this whole practice has gone on forever. They leave your property with, say, 32 logs on the log, get to the mill and only have 28 or fell off some place. I mean, it's crazy. It's not good. Thank you. I'm going to go over to the other committee. I'm happy to help if you need more advice. If Linda texts me or emails me, I'll make sure one way or another to get back. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah. So the Attorney General from being the one that would be in charge of, you file your complaint to them about forest and parks. So they mixed up in this bill? I won't say regrettably not, but they don't have the capacity, experience, they are not licensed law enforcement. The law enforcement agency that possibly had the ability and skill set and power were efficient wildlife, they do not have a specific graining in these violations. So the buck was passed all over the state. And it would have taken setting up a new division. As you know, they're under siege just trying to do their own good work in the state. So I'm too convinced that way too much to do already. I mean, I heard that excuse forever. But they're the professionals of every county, I believe, that not every region has a force. There's a county force. And you know, if some elderly person who has been left off in plain search, I would think that they could almost find time to go in and measure the stunted. I mean, you can tell if a lot of them caught in the last few months. Uh, somebody's got to measure the stunted to know that can verify it, that can get some numbers, the HG obtained by that, that can do measure stumps. Some of these people don't even have a forester on the payroll. So they can't have their own do it. And if they did have their own do it, then it could be questioned that they had a self interest to exaggerate or to get the thing higher.  So you'd have in the value of the product, whether it's high wood, salt, wood, maple, birch. Senator, you know, common sense and rational thinking, you know, don't necessarily apply here because county foresters on their approach, they say, well, this is not our authority. We do not have the time, the expertise, we're not being paid to go down the rabbit hole of inventory and building the case. I've heard this so many times, professional foresters that actually may be familiar with it, find it. Well, my time's expensive, who's going to pay for building this case and going, showing up in court, testifying, getting a judge and getting no residence. Coming back, one of these landowners and test sites said after five and a half years, he finally got a judgment, the perpetrator didn't show up. And after the second time of not showing up, he says, well, what do you want me to do? Find them and contempt the court. And the landowner says, yes. Well, he said, if you can do that, it's going to cost you this much for court fees, the schedule and by the way, five and a half years and multiple court appearances have taken place. I mean, the justice is not there. And would you think the county forester system might have that capacity being rational thinking, you might, but it doesn't, isn't playing with them. First, I was thinking if a cutter had to be registered, you know, a person that's in the cutting garden had to be registered through the state, they'd be able to do a number. When they don't have to sell the law to a buyer, that number would have to be on the slip, that the scale slip or the sales slip. Did you talk about anything like that? We did. And was that bad or? It was, there were so many different options, call out a tracking trace or a ticket, many of the mills I bring into, I will go to a box, all of truckers. I truck my own word, generally, fill it out, landowner species, my name, trucker's name is the same. And that trip ticket number will follow the scale slip all down. Getting consensus on the various options of how to keep tracks so fraud cannot occur was a longer and hotly contested debate. It takes a lot of stakeholders, but that's why I keep going back to this, this of operation and the Attorney General report on timber trust enforcement, it implores them or requires them to look at any and all, including enforcement systems that have been in use in other budding states and other parts of the Northeast and report back. Are there any other, you mentioned one other state that main that has like a timber trust back? They do, but state of Maine has, they're called state forest, they state forest service and they require licenses and these foresters, you know, our harry fire arms have arrest authority and way another level of enforcement. There's not one or two to cover the state. They're everywhere. It's a big industry. We financially or just the structure of FPR is not, we are so far not there. We've got a lot of bureaucracy and we're not, there's a lot of pressure on state lands, how they're managed, to what interest groups, benefits, et cetera, et cetera, and they are working hard and operating the numerous state parks and state forests and in them to, so they're not equipped at this time in history to move into that level of enforcement. Just, that's the reality of a lot of responsibilities. Well, I think we've got quite a lot of lifting to do with, to get this ready for fun times. Are there some loggers we've got? We've got some. Later, we wanted to get you folks in, you know, early on that. Well, if I could, you know, you are a witness list or tell you about it, but there was an orange county, a lot of earth on timber harvesting testified. Yeah, we got anchors coming. You know, that's something that I had thought of though.  Well, you have quite a witness list here. I'm familiar with virtually everyone on that list. No, together. All various professionals. I would keep, and you've got victims, you've got foresters, you've got bankers, you've got a great launch. You've got commissioners. I would leave you with a simple idea that it's important, I think, for our industry and our forest that this does not die without any action. There are provisions and I think you'll get testimony from these of all the stakeholders that are going to be on that committee. Yeah, it can make this a more perfect deal. Of course, certainly better, but do nothing is the hope to God. It would be very sad to meet Michael Chin in moving forward. Thank you, chairman, if there are other questions. Thank you for getting that over to us and you also seven to five of others out there would have been just as well if I stayed with you. I rest my days. That's why I'm here. Thank you, chairman. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Jack.


Welcome back to Y-254 in the morning. It's Wednesday and if it's Wednesday it's WCW, a segment where we celebrate women who are impacting positively in our society. You can engage with us on all our social media platforms at Y-254 channel. Engage me at Fapensoli. Miss Wild Kenya is back after a year break due to COVID. And today we are talking about beauty and brains to be specific modeling in Kenya. And in studio today we got a gorgeous woman, beautiful Miss Cooperative University. Her name is Anne Kamau. Welcome to the studio. Thank you very much. Yes, so Aman Manjilu Kamau as you've said. So growing up I had this fallacy that when you want to be a beauty queen or rather a model all you have to know is just walking in stilettos and all that.  No, that is not it. You should have brains. We all have brains. It's not all about the work. You should be confident. You should have brains. Almost everything. It's not all about the work. We are not looking at the work only. We are looking at a lot of things.  Actually I never thought of modeling when I was young. I was not into modeling when I was young but people will tell me. People are like when you are slim you should be a model. So I was not much into modeling but my parents have helped me to get where I am right now. It was my parents that were like you should go to training. Actually I can remember my first day to attend training I was taken by my dad and my mom usually calls whenever she wants me to go somewhere. So what's the process that you have to go through to be a model? So the process you have to go through to be a model. First of all you should accept. Like you should accept you're going to modeling. You should accept that you'll face a lot of challenges and you should accept that you'll tackle all of them. Then you should have patience.  Then you'll have to do training. Yes you'll have to train. What kind of training? You'll have to train how to walk on heels 5 inch and above. Then what? You'll have to train how to talk when there are a lot of guys. Not like the way we are talking. You have to talk audibly that a lot of guys can hear you. Then you'll have to work on your confidence and courage. You'll have to work on those and smile. And brains. Exactly. Do you really need to starve yourself to be a model? No, why is that? You don't have to do that. Because we have many types of modeling. Like there's pigeons where you feel guys should starve now. And we have commercial modeling where it's open for everyone. Like anyone can do commercial modeling. If you're thin, short, tall, commercial modeling tackles everything. Because nowadays we've got plus size models. Yes we have plus size models and I'm very proud of them. I really love them because that means they are confident enough to showcase what they have. Exactly. So when you go into modeling, like for you, you're miscooperative university. Yes I'm miscooperative. What prizes, or rather what prize came with the coveted crown? So it depends on the title and you've asked about miscooperative specifically. We have different prizes. You may be paid 15,000 and above when you've won. But with time they pay you. And you have advantages. You'll have to go to trips when they go. You'll have to attend a lot of things. So it's not all about the prizes they give but what comes after you get the title and the crown. So you get paid, you've rewarded a prize, you've given a prize. But then again you're like on a payroll. In Kenya, we've been growing up. I would watch, let me say, Miss Wild Kenya on television. As in it was a glamorous thing. It would be aired whenever the competitions were there. And then it was something that was so much followed. But today it's like the tradition is dying out. Why do you think it's happening so? I don't think the tradition is dying. We can obviously say it's dying because I feel as much as it's not aired as it used to be, things will still happen. Right now it was maybe it was not aired on TV but in social media platforms, other social media platforms we watched the event. So maybe it's because right now there is COVID. We don't want a lot of guys in one room or one place. So that was one main reason is because of COVID-19 and another one is because of support. Like a lot of guys are not supporting models. No one is really supporting models. We want modeling to be on a higher scale but a lot of guys are not putting effort on it. We have a lot of models out here but supporters are so less. Why do you think that not so many sponsors to be specific are not coming on board? Is it because it's losing its glamour? Is it because it's not something as coveted as it was before? I feel it's because we've not convinced them as much as possible. We should show them what we can do and they should give in to what we want to show them. They should give us time to show them what we have. I can remember sometimes back, Cecilia Mwangi. She was one of Kenyans queens, Miss Wild Kenya sometimes back. And then she came up with a Jigas campaign. And she did it even after the crown. She continued with the mandate of eradicating Jigas in her foundation. But you find that subsequently other queens that have come after her, we are not hearing of them. So what's happening in the industry? The thing is the Jigas campaign was a big one. Like we've not heard of someone doing such a thing. So it was outstanding. It went places and she continued doing that. We have other queens and they are doing things that we've heard of. That is because they are not as unique as the Jigas campaign. A lot of queens are doing pad drive out here. They are looking after kids with disability and kids who are at the streets. So I feel Jigas was something that we've never heard of. But pad drive and looking after kids who are disabled and who are at the streets are things that we hear about. So that is why we can't hear of them now and then. And you find that in most cases people will come for auditions like you. You went for auditions and you are not just alone. You are so many people because I know that when you are competing, people really come out because everyone is feeling like I'm beautiful, I can do it. Do you think that the process is usually fair or it is whom you know when it comes to judges? So when we talk about auditions, it's not about people you know. It's about your brains, what you'll have to do and what you're presenting. Because I know one thing with beauty, it's all about opinion. Like me and you, we are here and then our camera person is the judge. And then you find that our judge decides to choose me according to how she views me. Because beauty to her is in her, she is the beholder of what beauty is. So you find that it's all about opinion, what you think about this particular person and you can use that opinion to influence other people. So you find that this one has got a positive opinion towards you, then influence is the judges to choose you. So that is why I'm asking, do you think that is usually fair? Whoever wins, does he or she win fairly? Yes, because whenever someone wins, it means you're outstanding. You're 10 people, then one of you wins. Why is the person winning and you've not won? Like all of you have the same work, you have the same smile, but you don't know what happened. Maybe the person answered the question correctly. But we don't look at the answer, we look at how you present your answer, how confident you are and how you answer it. The way you say that the judge will look at things, personally I feel we look at beauty and brains. And to me beauty is what you present to the world non-verbally. So whenever you answer what you've been asked, try to tackle things that are happening in the world. As much as the question may not look at that, try to think of that. Because we are looking at the society and the society is anyone who is in need. Yes, in need of your help, that is it. So there was a time in 2016, there was a Miss Wild Kenya, 2016 was decrowned, you remember? So apparently she was decrowned because she was not conforming to the rules and guidelines of being a Miss Wild Kenya and so she was decrowned. So what do you think or what are these aspects that as a beauty queen, as Miss Cooperative University, you should conform to the public image for you to be that influence. First of all, I think it's all about respect. When you respect yourself, you will present yourself to guys well. You will show them what to do, you will show them the steps they have to follow and you will have to present everything in a positive manner.  So you will have to mind, you have to change by the way.  So we say you fake it till you make it, you will have to start by faking it and eventually you will make it. As in you won't be taking drugs when you have attack. And you won't, you will have to be a good girl. Will you just be faking it for the crown?  You see, when you practice something, it gets into you. So I feel faking it is you just have to change. You will have to change to someone else who you are not. And you really respect your crown and your title, you will have to change completely. You don't have to go back to who you are because you've changed. You've changed and it's it. That is it, you've changed, not going back. As much as your term has ended, you will still be working. People will know you are the Miss Cooperative 2021-2022. And that means you'll have to stay the one you've changed to a positive person who inspires everyone to live positively. Okay, so speaking of change, for you to be a model or rather Miss Cooperative University, you have to be someone who is relatable. What do I mean? You have a story that you can tell someone. It might be challenges, it might be success stories, it might be anything that can inspire this person. So what are some of these stories that you can stand before people and tell them and then someone says, want to be Miss Cooperative University? Personally, I don't have the stories people have, the stories that you will tell and people will cry. But I have something that I usually tell people that you should accept defeats. That is what models fail in. As in you just go to one competition, you win in your own way. I call it winning in your own way. You were not crowned, then you give up and you start saying it was corruption or stuffs. You don't give up, you'll have to move a step forward.  I'm usually moved by if you can't crawl, you'll have to walk. If you can't walk, run. If you can't run, fly. But in everything you do, just make sure you're moving. Don't stay stagnant. Just because you lost one event, it doesn't mean you will lose forever. You first have to accept that you lost. You won at your own way.  You'll have to practice more. You'll have to have more confidence on yourself, work on your brains and everything will be flawless. Alright. So how do you jungle between being Miss Cooperative University and your studies?  Yes, I'm still a student. So I'm still a student and I'm Miss Cooperative University. I have time for studies and time to work on projects. I have projects obviously because of the title. So when I tackle projects usually at weekends, that is when we don't have classes and stuff. I don't want it to just confuse as in I don't want Miss Cooperative to forget about studies. I don't want to forget that I went to Cooperative to study and I just look at modeling. I just do modeling on weekends and I study on weekdays. That is it. So what are some of the challenges that you have encountered as Miss Cooperative back in your hood and in the university? In my hood. In my hood I've just said I have supportive parents so I don't have any challenge. Because people be like she's Miss Cooperative University they expect more from me. They expect more from you. So I feel like people really expect more from me and that was a challenge then because I really felt like I just have to reach to where they want me to get. As in they want me to do 6 inch every day I'll have to do them. I feel if I just continue being what they want me to do I'll suffer. There's no way I can be working on 6 inch every day. I can't work on 6 inch every day. So I just had to be myself. I really have to be myself. I know I'm a positive lady and being yourself does not cost anything and they'll accept eventually and eventually they accept it. Like they used to me like this. I'm not on crown every day. It's just me. Actually others don't know me. They will know me when I'm with other guys because I'm not so classy. I'm just simple and clear. That is it. So we are in a society where it's a society of Kituki Dogo. So you find that before you became Miss Cooperative University a lot happens in the music industry wherever in our places it tells you to pull down your pants before you get whatever you want. Have you encountered so? No. I hear people talking about that is like corruption in short. That is what you're talking about. I hear people talking about that a lot and I'm a believer of God. I usually ask God not to let me pass through such things. I've never passed through such things and I hear people saying that I didn't win because of corruption. Imagine if it was you as it will eventually get to you. So if it didn't get to you just accept and move on. Don't drop your pants because of a crown now. There is another crown which is coming. Just give it time. Be patient. Don't rush. Don't rush. Would you advise a young girl who is aspiring to be a model to just go ahead into it? Yes. That is if the girl is ready to be patient. If you feel you'll be patient enough if you feel you won't drop your pants so that you can have a crown go for it. Be patient. That is the only thing I can tell models. Be patient. Be confident. Accept yourself for who you are. Don't force issues. Be the one you are. So moving on. You talked about you doing community work. Yes. Talk about it. So whenever you win you'll have to give back to the society and as I've said society is your neighbor and your neighbor is anyone who's in need of your help. You don't give back to where you belong. I can't just give back to cooperative university. I have to give out to students who are in schools that are there. Children's home which are there and the society at large. So I have done social works. I have given back to the society that is projects have done part drives. I've talked to girls in high school. I've advised them and I've visited children's home and I'm looking forward to bringing up a home for children who are disabled because I feel we are not looking at them and they deserve a lot from us. They need a lot from us. Why disabled and not white? Because when you hear about a lot of projects people talk about part drives. Yes, ladies are suffering but we have people who are looking at that and whoever who are looking at the part drives should work on it a lot. We have others who are looking at the kids who are in streets but you have kids who are disabled. I believe no one want to be left with a kid who is disabled as in you're a parent you have a kid who is disabled you want to go to work you don't want to leave the kid to me and I don't want the kid by the way Atashinda Akini Liliam the kid will just be there and no one I believe no one wants to be left with a kid and the parent won't work eventually so I want a home where the kid will be staying even if it's like from morning then the parent come for the kid in the evening I will just love such a home so that the parent can have time to work and look for food so that the kid can keep moving keep growing I just want that So you're a student? Yes I'm a student and you're doing part drive where do you get the money? So I'm a student we have partnership as in organization we just approach organization and we talk to them people are hurtful people are not hurtless out here so you talk to guys and you just tell them what you want where you want to get what you've done first you begin with who you are what you want to present and what you want them to offer to you so whenever you just tell them you want to give out to the society I believe people really are there to help just talk to people be genuine, be honest and people are there people are ready to help That's so nice knowing but there are people out there who are touched by whatever you are doing and they are willing to help Very willing So on a daily basis or rather what you do every day you know you're a model and people expect you to be heavy in a certain way So just to let our viewers who might be your fans or might be your neighbors might be your friends does a model have to look good each and every day Yes I have to look good Whenever I'm dressed I just have to look good I have to look glamorous Okay, as much as I there's difference between classy and good So as much as I won't look classy every day I have to present myself well to the guys Yes, not classy but good Okay or at times classy and good if you're able Alright, yes It's nice of conversation Thank you very much and continue doing what you're doing We wish to see you one day in being Miss Wild Kenya That is next year Exactly Yes Because for you to be great today you have to start with smaller steps Yes, I have to And so I want you to encourage a young girl out there or even a boy because nowadays we've got Mr. Kenya Yes, but we didn't have one Yes So I want you to encourage someone who wants to venture into modelling and be great one one time in the near future Just look into that camera and say goodbye So hello, you want to be a model out there I've just talked of patience Be patient Be patient Don't give up Don't listen to people who are talking about corruption Don't make you never accept lose And if you don't accept lose you will never win You'll never go to step forward You'll never rise And a queen I'm a queen I'm a queen I'm the queen of cooperative university And whenever you're a queen you accept defeat No matter what you accept defeat and move on like nothing happened So just don't give up train train train have brains not just beauty And beauty you've said is what you present to the world non verbally be loving be caring present to the world what you can positively So what a conversation I know that now we have demystified all the fallacies that come with being a beauty queen being a beauty queen And whoever wants it or whoever looks up to being a model has got one or two things Thank you for whatever you're doing here at way two, three four we celebrate you And so have you ever walked into a restaurant and then just after getting into a restaurant you're so hungry it's lunchtime hour and then you find someone already dining at the door and then you walk in you're presented with the menu and then even before you look at the menu you say I just want to have whatever she's eating and then after just one test of whatever she was eating and you realize this is not what I wanted that is what life is in real life you write your own script but you don't read someone else's script take a step at a time if you want to be Miss Wild Kenya you have to start with Miss Cooperative University for example it's been WCW I've been your host Faith Musoli Thank you for watching Kaisu is up next with Gal Stok


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