Before we introduce Patrick I didn't plan this but I had to take a little a little ironic pleasure with this tweet I got from zero hedge that someone shared with me about an hour ago barclays server crash Leaves customers unable to withdraw cash or use debit cards So thank you zero hedge for that little bit of news And what do we say about Patrick burn a retail and e-commerce giant obviously the founder of Overstock comm But also a PhD in philosophy and you don't often see those things two things combined Holds degrees from Stanford Dartmouth in Cambridge He's equally at home talking about business about management methods with employees About Wall Street and insider trading He's completely comfortable and knowledgeable talking about Austrian economics and some of the Hayekian problems of knowledge and What he's probably getting most famous for is his ideas and vision about the uses of the blockchain Going forward which are going to God willing Not only eliminate a lot of third-party risk from all of our lives But hopefully most importantly eliminate a lot of government intermediaries. So please welcome Patrick burn What an honor it is to speak with with you and and to address the Mises Institute I want to take this opportunity to say I think that in In Jeff the Mises Institute has gotten the next generation of leadership lined up And I think that we're going to see big things out of mr. Brown. So Great hire I Honored to speak it's to the Mises Institute crowd again My father always warned me that The the eyes are the second thing to go I don't have to the ears. I guess so just in case those in the back can't read this I don't want there to be any misconceptions This says on it make Bitcoin great again. I think we have to get those up on the site soon We have an hour and we have to 130 they have been very generous and gracious and Asking they're inviting me to speak for so long. I love Q&A but they've There's gonna be some philosophy first you know invite a philosopher to lunch what you get is some philosophies I don't tell you that and there's gonna but we'll have ample time for Q&A But as they as the great philosopher pink Floyd said You can't have your pudding until you've eaten your meat. How can you have your pudding until you've eaten your meat? So So we got to go through some meat first First who am I I've gotten I've started liking this article from a profile and wired a couple years ago saying meet Patrick Burn The Messiah of Bitcoin. I'm the Messiah of nothing. I hope you know that I Am the CEO of overstock in the scourge of Wall Street. I will Plead guilty as charged to that one And I'm a you may even deduce out of this Talk why that and it came to be It wasn't always that way about 12 years ago. I was the first in the country Let me tell you a quick story out We went public in 2002 and I'd grown up around Wall Street when you're a public company CEO as I was since 2002 you're out there in the mix quite a bit and you're out there with hedge funds and Regulators and prime brokers and bankers and venture capitalists and such and it didn't take me very long between o2 and o4 Just smells skunk and to realize there was a lot of mischief going on on Wall Street. So I just swam around in it and Learned everything I can I don't talk to My plan was to take it to the press and I try to stay as far away as possible from the guys with badges and guns for reasons we'll come up, but I Got it all I gathered a whole lot of Irrefutable evidence about what was going on Wall Street and in 05. I went public and I with this claim I said that the there's a whole bunch of mischief going on on Wall Street centered actually and I got him Stephen Cohen a guy a hedge Funding and seems to have about 15 satellite funds around them. They're engaged in widespread market manipulation and insider trading But most interestingly in the SEC who the American I wasn't going on the radio saying this by name Accusing them in criminal acts said no one's gonna sue me That's how confident I am that I'm right because they can't take discovery and at the most importantly that the SEC is asleep at The switch if not actually in bed, it's they've actually been captured by these these hedge funds and There's a whole bunch of systemic risk building up and the whole thing is going to come to an ugly end And the next day in the New York Post ran this photo of me They said it's crazy it's conspiracy theory to believe That what hedge fund that Wall Street and the SEC are too close and the SEC isn't protecting us wacky wacky wacky conspiracy theory boy, so That's who I am I'll let you at the end decide which of these but the thing in common between them is Whether I'm the messiah or lunatic is I'm a fanatic and as Churchill said a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject And the thing that I'm fanatic about is a operating system called liberalism And I want to be clear Presumably well, no when you talk about political political liberalism. We're all talking about We're not talking about Bernie Sanders. We're talking about a long historical tradition So there's going to be some intellectual history here for a while and again I hope you forgive me, but I was asked to prepare something substantive and so I have I Would like to walk through this because I think we're up against some compare I think we're like a company that has lost its brand lost its business model has forgotten its business model and for the younger folks here, I think it's Probably I think that people should be Reminded what our operating system is about and what I mean by operating system is a great book that the it's kind of a cult science-fiction book who here's red snow crash Okay, they have to be kind of a real hardcore anarcho capitalist a red snow crash But it's a great book from over 20 years ago Where a sci-fi novel that envisioned the collapse of civilization at the snow a snow crash a lot of interesting Memes come out of it the concept of cyberpunk Metaverse he envisions in this book in 1993 things that we would now call Facebook or the World Wide Web Memes itself the concept of memes got traction in this book And and or this is sort of the Bible of the anarcho-capitalist But what if this book does is invites us to Think of Civilizations and when as operating systems nobody kills each other. I think Linux is great. I think you know Macintosh is great. I think PC, you know, it's they're just operating systems that have different virtues and different flaws different design advantages and different design flaws and the the two main classes of operating systems And history is just as this book would invite you to see is just a sort of a Petri dish Well, we're looking at different operating systems and seeing what emerges as the most successful, which has the least flaws and is the most useful The two main classes of operating systems are Authoritarianism and liberalism Thoritarianism, I I'd love this, you know Kennedy said this and his inaugural address asked not what your country can do for you Ask what you can do for your country and Milton Friedman said well this bike Clear a few years later. He wrote this said that clearly as Kennedy's subsequent act shows he meant by country government and Milton Friedman said neither half of the statement expresses a relationship between the citizen and his government That's worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society And that's because Ultimately authoritarianism the core DNA is submission. It's submission and I think of George Orwell described the future this way If you want a vision of the future imagine a boot stepping on a human face forever Well, I think that that's too. I hope that that's pessimistic about the future But it certainly is a good description of history By and large, I'm remind I was once in oh for I was in Afghanistan searching for artisanal products for overstock and I was talking to a Young lady through an interpreter another a woman who was an Afghani woman who was interpreting pardon me. It's a lot and She was I was talking to this artist and third and in translation the woman saying I can't go I can't go and pick up the raw materials to make more products for you because I don't have a husband anymore If I walk on the road, I might be stolen and this and that and I corrected the translator I said the word isn't stolen. It's kidnapped and this woman this the translator said well Not really in our language We have a word for kidnapped and if it happens if a man is taken or something you're kidnapped But if a woman is taken We use the same word that you would use for a cow or sheep just like if you saw in America a cow walking down the road You wouldn't think of it. It's being you'd ask who owns it You know who owns the cow the cow doesn't own the cow somebody owns the cow And that's is how it is for women in Afghanistan And so we use the word that you would use if somebody steals a cow or sheep or a woman because she's there's no concept Of a free woman the woman's always owned by her dad or her husband or older brother something like that and I think that it's That's I think we all should remember that until the liberal revolution came along. That's largely how people had to conceive of themselves We were ends. We were means for other people's ends And it's easy to get confused on that when you read philosophy because people use words Like here I pulled a line out of Machiavelli. We're just just as an example of how this can be distorted Machiavelli speaks of whenever those states which have been acquired or live into their own laws and in freedom There are three courses for those who wish to hold them blah blah blah what he means by a free State isn't what we mean Machiavelli means a State that is not a vassal. It's not subject to another state But it's just taking for granted of course that the prince is the prince all who live within the state are the ends are the Means for the prince to achieve his ends. It's not free in that sense So people have used these this word freedom for a long time not to really mean anything like we conceive of it Where does our conception come from with a liberal conception? The core value for us is consent It's all about consent if you think of what what we are really trying to promote to promote at the DNA level is Consent consensual relations among humans among citizens and Consent of the governed as a political doctrine There are three precursors I like to mention I used to teach philosophy and love which I could teach a whole semester on this The three precursors the first time I can even think of this having been conceptualized is in the book of Daniel If you remember there is a line Daniels interprets for the king Nebuchadnezzar and one of his interpretations is you've been judged in the balance and found wanting Well that ability to conceive until then political and divine authority were Synonymous they were united the first evidence. I can think of where somebody conceived of it differently that there is some external Balance by which you can judge political authority is this line in the book of Daniel couple hundred years later really in Athens democracy emerges the first Voting and also it's interesting I used to study Athenian democracy and they had several different Constitutions and the Constitution that turned out to work the best and created the most stable Political system in Athens is when they went to choosing their representatives Through sortition which means randomly just as we choose jurors and Believe it or not. That's I was one. We don't think of anymore. Although we do choose jurors that way but when it was one that Athenian political system chose their electors at random that they that they actually fared the best and then third There was a Greek he was a Greek man that lived in the Roman Republic and you know the Rome spent 500 years pretending they were Greek they were sort of like East Coast Americans who look up to the French there Romans looked up to their Greek so much and every good Greek house every good Roman You know aristocratic household would have a Greek slave to teach the children and raise them and there was a Greek living there in about 120 BC Polybius who wrote and he was a tutor to one of the aristocratic households and he wrote the histories And he had this theory. He was the first to Articulate this theory of history and a cyclosis which says it's the natural order of things that out of the out of primitive society Kingdom emerges and then kingdoms degenerate to tyrannies and Then the tyranny gets sort of you the tyrant gets usurped by the nobility the Aristocracy around him and they take over and then that degenerates into oligarchy and then the people take over that's democracy and then that degenerates into mob rule and That's history had so there were benign and malign forms of each government kings to tyrants Aristocracies to oligarchy's democracy to forget the Greek word for mob rule, but I'm a mob rule and Does someone know it? No, it's not mob. I was here like a octocracy or something. I'm a Greek And that the way to stop that was polycentricity, which just means decisions Get decentralized you want to have decent if the more you centralize decision-making in one body The more it tends to accelerate this process but the more that you can distribute political authority across different bodies then You can we can perhaps stop this tradition of this this historical cycle and his great His he argues in one book of histories that that's the virtue of the Roman Republic that they had managed to balance these different interests and That this process had come to a stop So Continuing this It really but I say that's the precursor but liberalism really starts Just over 500 years ago in Spain And we normally don't think of it this way But it starts in Spain in two places one place in Spain called the lowlands or the Netherlands Which we got to remember Spain Europe was all Spain with this island of France in it but Europe was Spain and in the left in these swamps on the Northwest of Europe some Germanic folk who didn't want to be under anyone's authority Moved out into these swamps and realized if they could cooperate they could drain the swamps and build Let and create land and live together so it really was a a but then they had to come up with the rules by which they were going to live together and It actually is if you was a social contract We study if you're studying college philosophy political theory always hear of contract theory Hobbes Locke John Rawls is the big one that gets studied these days that the idea of justice is let's all agree if we were in some Original position before let's agree on what the rules would be and then whatever rules they would be That's what we that's what we should live under now Well, they actually did this in the Netherlands. This is what they were doing in the 1300s and they came up with a form of government That first recognizes You know that we we hire somebody if we're all working say to build a dam on the Amstel River Which is where it all started hence Amstel dam That we're gonna have to cooperate and how to and we're gonna have to have somebody who runs the show a mayor or something But as they think of them just the first among equals not some overarching presence in the sky government's just like a plumber or something that we've hired to get something done and It's just the first among equals and then enough of those principle enough of those Political bodies federated and that's that was the low ends So but from the ground up it's all consent and it's not based on sort of this overarching respect For government as a ruler of us. It's just somebody we hired because you do need somebody to coordinate, you know things a Merchant and bourgeoisie town emerged and the values of the merchant class are can our consent consensual exchange Erasmus a great Catholic theologian Came and wrote the first Philosophical defenses of tolerance religious tolerance and peace But a philosophical defense of religious tolerance Spinoza and the great one You know for 200 years if you just referred to the philosopher you meant Spinoza he was concerned he came up with what we would now call the modern view of the self Maybe even the basis of psychology are a way of conceiving of ourselves as Agents who have Psychologies and things that was Spinoza and he conceived of man for the first time as an entity Whose consent matters? It's not just about the princes and their dealings with each other that the consent of the government that we are beings worthy of consent And hence this whole sort of consensual society developed in this swampy area in the northwest of of Europe and it prospered and prospered immensely Something funny happened we give all this credit to the English as being the sort of the cradle of civilization And if you even teach this in American high school civics anymore, you you learn this stuff about the English and the and what really happened was Some English separatists they were Brownians they moved to They fled England and they moved to Rotterdam and they lived there for 20 years and they eventually Got fed up with the effect of the licentious and wicked ways of Amsterdam on their youth and they decided to move and they Sailed to the new world landed at Plymouth Rock. We know them as the pilgrims in our history book We give all this credit to the pilgrims that came over with pilgrims are not puritans common misconception pilgrims are not puritans they're more like we would think of as the Quaker tradition today and We they didn't come from England with it It's left what's not taught in the history books as they went and they learned it in this 20 year period and in in the Netherlands and Then also we learn in our civics classes that our founding fathers all read this great English philosopher John Locke the second treat is on government where he works out a social contract and And and this was very influential book on our founding fathers in truth John Locke didn't learn it in England He sat at the glorious revolution Sitting over in Amsterdam for three years and then he went back to England and wrote this book This is really built again on his perceptions out of out of Holland So in in my view, we don't give nearly the credit to the Netherlands that we should intellectually It's really where liberalism was conceived that it maybe was cradled in England and Britain and then came to the US but And then there's another part of Spain and there's a wonderful economist Who I don't know if he has spoken at Mises, but Jesus Huarto de Soto is he known in the And he has developed while it was really Murray Rothbard I understand who first made this argument and that Hayek approved it and it was an argument that what we That oh just over 400 years ago the University of Salamanca in Spain something very special happened bunch of Jesuits Dominicans created this scholastic school. It really sort of took the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas and natural rights philosophy and developed it and they they noticed both from their own philosophizing and also from the Spain was at the time it was the Golden Age of Spain and there and there had big influx of gold and silver from the New World And so they were thinking economically and they came up with the first Objectivist theory of value the idea that the value of something is not some function of how much labor has been put in it or I mean people used to have these philosophical Discussions like how do we determine what the value of something is and it was them who said the value is The appraisal of the person who will buy There's no sort of way to find some intrinsic value in something The impossibility of socialist calculation The idea that prices can't be set by any authority because it's just you'd have to know all the preferences of too many people And how they really value things and even God himself and his infinite wisdom could not perform the calculations To describe what the price of everything must be They saw the big inflation as this gold came back from the New World There was big bout of inflation in Spain the quantity theory of money They even discovered what we now would call the equivalence of demand deposits and certificates of deposits that if a banking system a banking system can create inflation by over By over issuing Either so it isn't just That the book basically through fractional reserve banking you can create inflation as well all of this and also the the value and they sort of fundamental Importance of entrepreneurship property contract how this is what really moves society forward These are oh peace there was just as there was in Spain There was a Actual peace movement probably the world's first peace movement you had scholastics writing against the crown About the virtues you know what we would now call a peace movement about how wrong it was to be going and doing these things in the New World These thoughts move to the eastern edge of the Spanish Empire, which was then well the eastern edge Was the Öster Eich the eastern rain the Öster Eich which is Austria and there they hibernated for 250 years they hibernated in universities there until they came out and come down to us Starting about 150 years ago as the Austrian school of economics That's actually what we know is the Austrian school of economics Hazel Swarto de Soto and and to him I understand Murray Rothbard have confirmed that actually started back 400 years ago in Salamanca and I view if you mix all these memes up of consent Consent Federation among consensual states consensual exchange tolerance religious tolerance pluralism And on the right these these economic concepts I think you get pretty much the US Constitution. In fact, this isn't Jefferson read there was a book by one of this class is called the history of Spain, Marianas and Jefferson got copies and sent it to all the founding fathers They all read this book because he thought in the history of Spain, which is one Which is the material from which the the the Salamanca school work that one could find proof of these of the of the benefit of these concepts and that in In an obvious way our US Constitution embodies this tradition It's under attack so that's the that's the quick short course on I think we're liberalism where our operating system comes from what's important to know is It is under attack in four ways philosophically From a point of view of institutional design and a civilizational attack Philosophically, I I'm only gonna hit one of these really at any length Rousseau Rousseau is the great enemy of mankind Rousseau see when they the tyrants when the Thoratairans couldn't fight it anymore they They subverted it in different ways and for Rousseau who writes this book the social contract Where he says or he says yes the the consent of people the will of other people is important But it's not this silly will you don't find out what the will of a people is just by voting. That's not that's a Silly, you know, we're French where that's superficial It's that the will Each of us puts his person and all his power in common under the supreme direction of the general will La valente general there's a general will that we have we don't discover it by voting amongst ourselves But there there's a general will that would that is our purpose the sovereign power need no guarantee to give no guarantee to its subjects Thus the dominant will of the prince is or should be nothing but the general will or the law and Whoever refuses to obey the general will shall be compelled to do so by the whole body This means nothing less than that he will be forced to be free This is the great Well, we laugh, but I'm gonna show you momentarily where this shows up in our modern discourse You know it Yeah, this is the great philosophical jiu-jitsu move against liberalism That yes, okay you folks are right not authority it is the will that's important But the real will isn't what you silly people think your will is It's what some robespierre is gonna come and make clear to you what your will is and if you don't what your collective will is And if you don't go along with it He can just force you to be free and that's what real freedom is so the real jiu-jitsu move to always be alert for Is somebody telling you that freedom isn't this or liberty isn't this silly thing of you pursuing what you want But is subordination submission to some other process to some other mechanism That describes basically the next 200 years of oh, by the way Voltaire read this and wrote to Rousseau dear monsieur Rousseau I've received sir you knew your new book against the human race and Thank you for it one longs and reading your book to walk on all fours I love somebody once asked Bertrand Russell if he had a Bible is it yeah, yeah, I keep it over there under my Voltaire um This mistake has propagated through philosophy for 200 years, and I'm not going to walk through in great detail, but But basically this the common denominator of this mistake is somebody saying freedom isn't what you think With this American conception of freedom is it's a or what our conception of freedom is it's a it's Submission to something else and Kant was really although we think of him as the father of liberalism some people do he really Didn't get it didn't get the joke and he still at the end of the day thought freedom was submission to a historical process Hegel basically a my view just warmed over Kant marks same thing submission if you've ever had the I know Misfortune to argue with a With a hardcore lefty. I used to live in China in the early 80s I would have these long debates with my I was a foreign student I would have these debates with my I was my my Chai-Kam friends my roommates and stuff and they would say well what you are what you understand as freedom is just this bourgeois Western understanding and we have you know through the science of Marxism and such Marxist now Lenin Maoist thought we understand that real freedom is submission to this process and by furthering this process That's how a man. That's our person really achieves true freedom Nietzsche did the same different different process named but he actually referred to what did he say if John Stuart Mill Only an Englishman cares about happiness In other words this idea of life Life liberty in the pursuit of happiness that the English that's just like that's like this trivial superficial Conception of freedom. I'm gonna bring down from the mountains a much richer Conception is through subordination to that submission to that that real freedom exists Lenin kind of twist it. Well, it's not submission to this historical process. It's submission to You know the the vanguard the vanguard of the process the party itself and literally If you go back a hundred or less than a hundred years and look at how this stuff was debated there are There's absolutely people may made this argument that is through submission in this case to the party Now if you've ever that is through submission to the party that real freedom is found So it's the same twist over and over freedom isn't the sort of silly superficial thing of life liberty and pursuit of happiness It's submitting yourself to something else is where you really achieve freedom Hitler our bite box cry Over the gates of the concentration camps work makes you free submission to this to the state and such Mal polo it's again when I've been in these bar even Cambodia. I've been and a long time ago People all know the Russo people the Chinese students maybe couldn't study any Western philosopher other than Russo And marks and marks Marks Lenin. It's the authoritarian Instinct needs needs to make this flip. It's the same judo move over and over that the that freedom is submission to something else Voltaire said people who believe in absurdities will eventually commit atrocities and that mistake is a that is in it is an absurdity Recently had a politician say the more I looked at what our founders were talking about They understood happiness to mean true happiness Not pleasure and enjoyment as we see happiness today But doing what you ought to do doing what you're oriented to do doing what God oriented you to do in other words Doing the right thing what our founders were talking about was the liberty to be able to pursue what you ought to do And he's very ready to tell you what you ought to do This was Rick Sandorum So this isn't just idle this philosophical error error Has crept into the not crept in it is barged into the discourse and polluted it for 200 years And it still lives That's philosophically constitutionally It's always been under attack. It held its own And I think that it would have held its own it was a well-designed system that our Constitution would have held its own until somebody had to cheat and The great scholar who has deconstructed this so beautifully is Richard Epstein He wrote a book on how progressive we were progressives rewrote the Constitution and he traces how in Jurisprudence American jurisprudence the principles of our Constitution got subverted Sort of to me. I was just hearing people talk about the regulatory state the administrative state None of that was really possible in the Constitution as it was written. The idea was to have 13 laboratories or 50 laboratories trying lots of different things polycentricity remember Lots of different Laboratories trying to solve problems and then the better solutions would get recognized and emulated and that's how policy Innovation would work. That was a beautiful aspect of the Constitution Not sufficiently appreciated it seems to me Judging from the discourse. Well that got ruined by the administrative state. The particular case was wicked versus filburn you know Roosevelt came in and he passed all these laws and the Supreme Court struck down said these are unconstitutional we basically tried to Mussolini our country and Which is an interesting story to go into On the side, but people forget Mussolini was very widely respected in regard in the United States until 1935 when he invaded Libya, but Mussolini anyway. Oh Tom Is Tom there you are did you write about this the effect of the connection between Mussolini and Roosevelt is that Okay You have everything else. Why not this? Anyway, they and it really comes down to as absurd a case is this a farmer. I think it was in Iowa Well, eventually Roosevelt got sick of this and in 1936 told the Supreme Court. I told the country I'm gonna pack the Supreme Court. Nothing says I can't take it from nine judges to 15 There's nothing in the Constitution that specifies the number of judges originally was five and I'm gonna put six of my own guys on and At that point the spring term in 1937 the Supreme Court buckled and it was called the switch in time that saved nine and they buckled and they started rubber stamping as constitutional the flagrantly unconstitutional unconstitutional things FDR was doing and in 1942 or 43 a case came to the Supreme Court where Roosevelt had had a program that was setting price prices for agricultural goods nationally and a farmer had grown wheat in his own Backyard and made something with it got in trouble with the feds goes all the way the Supreme Court and on the grounds of the Commerce Clause That the federal government could reach in because the federal government had an interest in maintaining Price stability and farm products and it's not enough a farmer grows his own wheat and eats it then that's wheat He didn't buy the national market, so he's having an effect However, infinitesimal on the national market. Hence. This is a fit subject for federal intervention Well, that's so philosophically tenuous. That's what I mean by saying the system really ultimately did take a crime to be broken it took the threat to pack the court and it took decisions like that to for The Constitution to stop working and what that decision was the opening of the administrative state once they did that then it becomes a fit Subject for federal administrators and regulators to regulate just about anything another great Example of that actually marijuana marijuana in California when it was first legalized Here there was a woman like a leukemia patient who was dying and grew a plan in her backyard and That was the test case. They brought was Gonzalez of E Reich and Went to the Supreme Court where we discussed where there's only one person on the Supreme Court in my mind who actually understands the Constitution it's Clarence Thomas and because lots of conservative judges are way too deferential to Congress and way due deferential to government authority if you want to read a real libertarian Treasure read Clarence Thomas's dissent in the Gonzalez v. Reich where he said of the federal government can regulate that a woman growing a pot Planned on her backyard. They can regulate spelling bees and anything else in the country The third of the four ways it's under attack is institutional design and Here is Here's the real insertion point in our operating system for the virus that we are up against is The insertion point for the virus of authoritarianism is centralized institutions Because centralized institutions, I won't read all of this but Federalist 10. I just heard Federalist 47 refer to Federalist 10 says It was it was Madison wrote it Basically, we studied all the ways that other Constituent that all their attempts at democracy had failed at how they failed and we designed this Constitution to be better than that but The thing that we haven't I'm bridging and the thing that we haven't solved he's basically saying is this problem of faction None deserves when we're actually developed and its tendency to break the balance of faction the friend of popular Governments never finds themselves so much alarm for their character is money and fates is when he contemplates their propensity this dangerous vice This is what factions is what? Are the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished and By factions he meant what we would call special interests special interests the ability for people to organize and get special treatment And he says this very interesting thing the valuable improvements made by the American constitutions Meaning this Constitution and the popular models both ancient and modern cannot certainly be too much admired But it would be an unwarrantable Partiality to contend that they have it as effectively Obviated the danger on the side as was wished and imagined in other words We have designed this Constitution to prevent all these flaws that we've seen take down previous attempts at democracy But there's one thing that we wish we had solved better Was this problem of special interest and that's the one that brings down? democracies in the long run So this is the weakness in our operating system It comes with wanting a rule a nation of laws and not men. You have to rely on centralized institutions and centralized institutions have this tendency to become Corrupted they have this tendency to get captured Regulatory capture we call it when it happens to regulators There are actually Marxists who argue it happens much deeper than just with the regulators It happens through the whole state through academia And I actually have a website called deep capture which is about this process. We're already on our financial markets so the real problem with if liberalism is An operating system of Institution or laws and not men or institutions and not people then when those institutions get captured That's that's our great weakness And if they if they have a tendency to be captured they create This creates what John Kenneth Galbraith called the bezel in financial circles John Kenna Yeah, Galbraith said that That any given time There's what the people are being told is in the financial system and what's there if you could just freeze time and add up What every single one of you is being told is there your ownership and can compare it what's there There's a huge discrepancy and that discrepancy is the amount that has been embezzled from society over time that's the bezel and I would argue that our centralized institutions that govern our financial arrangements display this To no end so we want to get rid of where possible centralized institutions because they are this liability They are this weak point in our operating system and where possible we don't want to be Overseen by centralized institutions because they do get captured The blockchain has come along and what the blockchain is so great at the economist calls it the trust machine We can now through blockchain engage in all kinds of consensual exchange and and all kinds of activities Without them being mediated by central institutions We will see shortly central banking is one of them I have been focusing my attention on an area of Wall Street called central counterparty clearing I won't go into the details, but what effectively what the blockchain does to Wall Street is as follows It drags it behind the barn and it kills it with an axe And why that's that's going to do that to Wall Street quickly but it also it can do it to all kinds of centralized institutions think of Property think of a land titling you can't trust you know The common denominator of so many central institutions is we can't trust each other. So we agree.  It's a way to monetize one's monopoly on violence. It's a business model We happen to call it government, but it's a business model There's lots of business models that both public and private that share this feature It's we can't trust each other. So we just agree There's some third-party institution. We trust land titling could be one notary publics is another I mean, there's there's all kinds of these things that now we can achieve that trust for the first time in 6000 years of human history we can have that trust come about not through some central institution that we all agree on But on but through blockchain Now how that happens is a is a big subject and I won't go any farther in it and lastly and I read in the In the material that you pride yourselves on not being PC. So I'm gonna bring up an uncomfortable subject at least much discourse and that is if our DNA at the if our genetic material is about consent What do we do if a authoritarian operating system emerges? disguised as a religion It's core value is submission But it's as a religion. We grant it, you know, the from the very beginning. We've been about religious tolerance So now of course I'm talking about Islam Now Islam has I've spent a lot of my life in the Middle East. So I'm not just speaking from Fox news Islam has variants and before say 1979 I think it was It did not have the tendency I'm describing but at the core for some Salafist and Extremist interpretations of Islam The the the basic world view is there's the world that has submitted to the will of Allah The world that has submitted the world the Dar al Islam and Islam means submission the Dar al Islam And we in the world of submitted who have submitted versus the world that we're still at war with So there's the world of submission in the world of war Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb and What do you do if then operating system comes along its fundamental value by some interpretations is submission and That shows up when we're In a society whose fundamental value is consent I'm not sure that a carbon-based life form can ever mate successfully with a silicon-based life form I'm not sure there's ever gonna be a way to Work this out now Fortunately, we're sure it's a small fraction of the of Muslims who believe this way and I'm happy to hear that I read a poll last year on upon among The immigrants to Europe 13% of them the 10% of them support ISIS Somewhat and 13% support ISIS strongly. So that's 23% will tell a pollster. They support ISIS I don't know what the real number is my guess is higher than 23% So there's some you know, so there is some non-negotiable fraction That don't have anything like the fuzzy bunny soft interpretation of Islam that we are told is the standard interpretation of Islam And like I've said, I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East with a lot of people who believe in another interpretation of Islam Which is the one I'm describing the fundamental value is submission and we may be kidding ourselves That you can ever that there's ever a way to integrate that into a liberal society Maybe not maybe we have to do a better job of integrating, but maybe it's something that Has to be fought in a different way My preferred route is I think the US should be all about Women in the Muslim world we should focus all focus all of our attention on situation of women in the Muslim world both because it is consistent with our values and Because it would be it is quite subversive for their societies and that's how we I believe we should be addressing that problem So anyway, that is liberalism. That is The four ways it's under attack


Hi, I'm Mark Collier with the OpenStack Foundation, and I'm going to show you the OpenStack Grizzly dashboard today. Just go over a few of the highlights in the new release. So I've gone ahead and logged in as an administrator. So because I'm logged in as an administrator, I have these two tabs here on the left, the Project tab and the Admin tab.  You'll only see the Project tab. So go ahead and click on the Project tab, and we'll see what this looks like from an end user perspective, and then we'll go back and look at the administrator tab in a moment after we've spun up some resources. So OpenStack is, of course, a piece of software that's designed to allow you to control pools of resources of compute, storage, and networking. So we'll see that in action here in just a moment. So before we go ahead and create a new instance, we will create some resources that will be attached to that instance, namely volumes. So with the OpenStack block storage project making a lot of improvements in the grizzly release, this is even easier to use. So this will be my new volume here. I'm just going to make a small volume that we can easily and quickly attach to a new instance. And this only takes a few seconds, and you can see this new volume is already available. Next thing we're going to do is create a network. So we'll start by creating a router. I've already created a few earlier. I'm running through this demo. So we'll create another router, and we will create a network. So when we create a network, it's pretty straightforward. Just have to complete a few details here about the subnet and the name of the network. And I'll go ahead and give it a 10.5 range, because I know that's available on my local network. And we'll set the gateway IP here. And that's really all it takes to quickly use the dashboard in grizzly to create a new network. And now we have a network created. We have block storage volumes created. So we can take a look at our network topology before we create an instance, and you'll see that the new network is here. This is a really cool graphical view that's been added to OpenStack dashboard. You can actually see each of the networks, and as you create more networks and add resources, it all gets viewed here, and you can keep an eye on it. So now it's time to create an instance. So let's create an instance and attach it to our new network and our new volume. So my new instance is going to be here. I'm going to select an image. And as you can see here, there's a list of flavors. Now, when you're in the administrative view, you can actually configure these flavors for your users. So you may want to create an instance type or a flavor of instance that actually has a lot of memory and a little bit of disk or vice versa or a lot of vCPUs. But as we select different sizes, you'll see here that it actually gives me a sense of how much within my quota for the project that I'm working in at the time is available. So in this case, we're going to take a tiny size instance. We will attach the private network and the new network we just created. You can also configure the access and security and any post creation scripts that you want to run. But right now, we're just going to simply attach the volume. So we're going to boot from a volume. We could also boot from a snapshot. Once you tell it you want to boot from a volume, you'll say which of your volumes. And of course, I just created this volume a few seconds ago. So we'll connect to that. And we will launch our new instance. Now if all goes according to plan, the new instance will be attached to the new network. It will be attached to the old network. And it will be mapped to the new block device. And you can see here, it's giving you a real time feedback as to what's actually happening as it builds the new virtual machine to our specifications. And now we're already active. And you can see the IP addresses here as we specified. And if we go back to our network topology, voila. There's our new machine. It's connected to our private and our new network. And of course, as you grow in complexity with your deployment, and you'll have that all reflected here. So last but not least, before we sign off, I'm going to go ahead and show you how you can also use the object storage system in your cloud from this dashboard. I already created a few containers earlier. I'll create one more. Let's see here, another container. Just so you can see how easy it is to create. And I'm going to go ahead and upload an object into my cloud, which is going to be my operations guide. Now if you haven't seen the operations guide, there's a new operations guide book that was recently published for operators. A lot of amazing information in there. So use that in our demo. And you can see the object's already uploaded. And here it is. And if I wanted to download it, I could do that as well. So of course, many people use APIs when they're accessing their OpenStack cloud, but having a dashboard even for object storage is always a nice option. And if you do want to discover your API endpoints, so you know where to look, if you look on Access and Security under the Compute section here, there's a tab for API access, which will show you your endpoints for each of the services. So I think that's another ease of use improvement here that helps you quickly figure out what API endpoints are relevant for your particular cloud if you want to access your cloud programmatically and not through the dashboard. So before I sign off, I'll just show you one more time the administrative view. And now you can see the instances that we created. So this is the instance I just created. The volume that I created is now visible here. So the administrator can see what all volumes and instances have been created. They can specify different flavors, which are essentially combinations of memory and disk and different resource combinations, depending on what their users need, manage their image library. In terms of the projects, I mentioned that there are quotas. And you could see earlier that I only had three instances I was allowed to have. So if I want to increase this particular demo projects quoted to five, if you went back into here, you would see that now we have one of five instances in use. So I've given this project a little more of a breathing room to grow. And you can add additional users, look at the networks that I've created, and the routers, as well as look at the list of services. So these are actually the services that make up the heart and soul of OpenStack that are actually operating the cloud. And in this particular case, they're all on one host because I'm running a very small cloud. But in a production setting would be different. And you have the default quotas. So when you create a new project, these are the quotas that are assigned by default. So with that, I'll just sign off and say thank you very much for checking out OpenStack Grisly. You can go to openstack.org to learn more. And hope you have a good time with OpenStack.


Today we are going to discuss the topic linking of overlay structured programs. At the end of this session, a student will be able to demonstrate how linking is done for overlay structured programs. Let us look at the background now. In programming, some parts of the program are briefly executed or sometimes not executed at all. Therefore, we keep these programs not in the main memory at all time. Therefore, memory is reduced by not keeping these parts in the memory and called for when required only. Therefore, some parts of the program are given same load address during linking. But only one part is in memory at a particular time. Loading other parts in the same load address would overwrite it. Let us think now, how is the problem of overwriting handled? We go now to understand what are these overlay structured programs? Overlay is a part of the program with the same load origin as some other part of the program. The parts of the overlay structured program are a permanent resident program which is a root which contains procedures which are called over and over again. It may call data or it may call some other module of a program. The second part is a set of overlays to be loaded in the memory needed at a particular time when it is absolutely required. How does an overlay working continue? An overlay manager is a software that is linked with the root and this manager takes hold of all the actions of managing all the overlays which have to be put into the memory address at a particular time. The first root is loaded in memory and given the control of execution of a particular function. It invokes overlay manager to refer the function or the data in the overlay as the case may be. Overlay manager organizes the loading of the memory with required overlay and there is overwriting of previous overlays with the same load origin. The program designer designs overlays that do not call programs in other groups. Otherwise they would be an overwriting which is group dependent. Each group of program is put in a separate overlay. All overlays are given same load origin. Thus resulting overlay structure is then conveyed to the linker by linker control command. For an example let us try to understand how an assembler works. As we know a two pass assembler has two passes pass one and pass two where the passes form different overlays and the output of pass one is consumed by the pass two and therefore pass one can be one overlay generating data structures. After that is generated then the program that generates assembly language program that generates the pass one data structures can be removed from the memory only maintaining the data structures in the memory and the pass two can then be executed at the same address and therefore we are saving memory and we are using the same memory locations but the root program will be changing. For an analysis of designing the overlay program let us consider an example. A program which has sections in it for initialization and passing control to the read. Read for reading one set of data and invoking a function. The functions may be function A, function B or function C depending on the data values that are considered at a particular time. And all these functions are mutually exclusive a print which is called to print the results. Since all the functions that we consider are mutually exclusive we can put all these functions into separate overlays. The read and the print since they are used over and over again to call the other functions are put in the root of the program. In it is also put for convenience in the root of the particular program. Let us look at a proposed structure of the program. As we see on the left hand side executing an init first then a read then invoking the function A and then function B then function C and then print. We see that 65k bytes of memory are required. But if we go using overlay as seen on the right hand side we see that invoking a function A will take 40k because we are using the same memory locations. Invoking only the function B will take 35k and invoking the function C will take 30k. Therefore maximum the overlay structure can execute in 40k bytes though it has a total size of 65 kilobytes as we have seen on the left hand side. What are the changes then to be brought when using overlays in the linker basic algorithm? The basic change is in the assignment of the link addresses to the segments which are now considered as overlays. The variable which is programmed linked origin which is used while processing the root portion is variable now depending upon the overlays. And the size of the root decides the load address of overlays. We initialize programmed linked origin while processing each separate overlay. The second part that is of utmost consideration is when we are handling procedure calls that cross these overlay boundaries. The linker identifies inter overlay call and determines the destination overlay. Therefore the next overlay which is our destination is to be decided and given an address which is then told to the linker. All information is communicated to overlay manager who manages all the overlays that are required at a particular time. The third is the handling of object modules which is done through adding autolinking facility wherein we now consider these modules to be separate. Let us now try to think and answer as per the concepts we have just been introduced to. Which of the following is true? A. Overlays are used to increase the size of physical memory. B. Overlays are used to increase the logical address space. C. When overlays are used the size of the process is not limited to the size of the physical memory. And D. Overlays are used whenever the physical address space is smaller than the logical address space. We have come to a conclusion that the answer C is true. Because when overlays are used the size of the process is not limited to the size of the physical memory. It is only that we are going to use the same load origin for the particular overlay. Let us consider another question where we have to think what an overlay is. An overlay is A. A part of the operating system. B. A specific memory location. C. A single contagious memory that was used in the olden days for running large programs by swapping. D. Overloading the system with many user files. After all that we have heard we come to an answer that the answer is C. A single contagious memory that was used in the olden days for running large programs by swapping. Therefore the same memory addresses can be used for load origins for many overlays. For our references we have used. Thank you.


Hello, folks in the chat is the attendee list link. So if you could sign into that, that would be great. And we'll give everybody a few minutes to join. Let me just see if I can pop into here. We have a, but you might thought that you were in here as well, so that's great. If people have items for the agenda, just pop them into the chat and I will add them to this list. But I thought we'd give everybody a couple more minutes to sign, to log in and then ask Vadim to give an update on the latest release and get any feedback people have. And then maybe talk a little bit about what we're doing in the docs if Jamie's has joined us by then. Is there anything else that people have for the agenda today? F cost incoming updates, I like that one. Thank you, Timothy. All right. About one minute after the hour, I'm gonna stop sharing and turn Vadim. Are you there? Yeah. All right, sharing screen and talk about the latest release and then we'll motor on from there. Okay. So last weekend we released another version of 4.7. It is marked as rejected because our test suit has become much stricter and we didn't cherry pick one of the machine config demon bugs, but you can still upgrade to it. It's perfectly fine. We didn't risk and decided not to pull in latest changes in MCD. These have gone into the latest nightlies. That means the vSphere hardware version block should now be fixed. And some more host name changes fixes have been merged in. So that would need some more additional testing so that we could declare it stable and release it maybe this weekend or hopefully the weekend following up if the test pass correctly. In other news, Kubernetes 121 rebases merged into 4.8. So, and so did the Fedora Core S34 next branch. So eventually in a couple of weeks maybe we'll start cutting out the release candidates and get some more additional testing of those so that we could declare them stable. On the problem front, the podman copy bug has been fixed but we're still getting errors when we're using Fedora Core S, the latest stable as a base image in installs because of the problems with extended attributes or something. I will be chasing Colin who's familiar with the situation to get some updates on this. If I remember correctly, Fedora 34 rebates doesn't have this problem so we'll get it for free once we get updates to F34. And some more good news. We have a new member in our team helping us with OPD specifically. Please welcome Mustafa who has just joined Redhead and helping with a lot of things related to community and stability. I think the official name is something like stability which is exactly what we need on OPD front. And I think that's pretty much all I've got from my side. Oh, is that, that's Mustafa? If you wanna wave and turn your camera on, just say hi and introduce yourself. That would be great. Yeah, sorry, I just find it more comfortable to type while it's off, yeah. Hi, I'm Mustafa, I'm at Business in Berlin. I'm the first member in the new team. I'm helping here and also in the storage team. So yeah, I'm glad to be in Redhead and hope I can help. And did I miss here, Vadim? I think I was on a call last week in internal one where there's a number of folks coming on board similar to Mustafa to help and they're going to be kind of interning with the OKD working group. So you'll see, we're getting some additional resources and one of the ways we're training them up is to bring them in via the OKD stuff. So that's actually really good news and Mustafa, you're the first face to show up. But I heard the upwards of 20 new hires and so this is gonna be gonna be interesting to incorporate them and have them understand our CI CD workflows and help us get some stability there. And then they're gonna be using that, I think on the OCP itself, on the OCP nightlies as well. So there'll be some, a lot of new faces coming soon. So that's making me very happy and Vadim even happier, I am sure. So. Vadim might get a weekend off. Yeah, maybe, yeah. That would be wonderful. That means no OKD releases, so we'll see how it goes. We'll get there, we'll get there. But it is a really good sign that we're getting some stuff, resources there. And yeah, it'll be fun. So welcome very much Mustafa, you're a very welcome face. So yeah, so that's there. Timothy, I'm gonna put you up to do the update on, unless people have feedback already on this latest release or questions, maybe I should allow that. If somebody had a question, I heard that. Otherwise we'll move on to Timothy update, that's okay. All right, Timothy, take it away. I think you'd have to unmute yourself. Yes, all right. Okay, so a quick update on the progress in Fedora Chorus and what's coming next. So something we've already mentioned is we are going to rebase to Fedora 34. So of course we'll wait until Fedora 34 is released for that to happen. So the issue tracking that, I'm just pasting that in the chat. And yes, essentially I think this is going to happen rather soon-ish after the release. So the release, I think it's at the end of the month or something. And yeah, the rebase should happen a little bit after that. And the second item I have is that we are adding open shift machine config support to butane. So we renamed the tool that was called FCCT, the Fedora Chorus config transpiler. We've renamed it to butane. And we've also added support directly into butane, yes. To generate machine configs. So that's, I'm pasting the links right now. Yeah, so the idea behind the name is that it's fuel for ignition because essentially you convert your butane configs to ignition configs. That's the fuel you put in your engine to ignite it. Yeah, so we are updating our docs already in Fedora Chorus to mention butane instead of FCCT. That's going to happen soon. So what's important here beyond the name change is that we had it in butane a way to generate machine configs directly. So snippets of machine configs, which should help you if you want to do some very, some complex root device or some complex look setup or things like that in OKG and that should be helpful. So this is, I think it's planned for 4.8 so that probably won't work until 4.8 is released. All right, that's a good item. Then we have two upcoming changes that are much further along the road, much, that will happen much later, but we want to raise attention right now about them to make sure that people can plan for it and do the necessary changes if needed. So the first one, which is planned for about two months approximately from now is the C Group V2 change. So we decided to split that from the Federa 34 Rebase to avoid having too many things and changing at once. So in approximately two months, we'll switch Federa Chorus from C Groups V1 to C Groups by default. So existing node won't be updated. They will keep using C Groups V1, but new provision nodes will start using C Groups V2. So here's the links here. Do we have to expect problems with this switch? That I don't exactly know. It depends on Hockety. Oh, you managed that exactly. I think Hockety will probably stick to C Groups V1 until testing has been done, and that's probably up to Valium to discuss that. Yeah, I can comment on that. We'll default to C Groups V1. However, the only switch is to remove a particular line in the generated machine config. We tested this in CI, and the only tests which failed were related to builds. I didn't look into those for quite some time, but since Kubernetes 120, you should have C Groups V2 support in most of the pieces there. However, it's just not yet stable, so this is why we don't default to it. So this Federa Chorus change is important, but it doesn't affect us right now. Okay, thank you. Essentially everything in the stack is not supported. That's why we made the switch so late because we were waiting for all the pieces to be fully supported for C Groups V2. The unknown here is that I'm not really familiar with regarding how the update is going to happen, because usually I start C Groups V2 directly, but I don't know how to update from V1 to V2, so that's maybe a tricky part for KD. To migrate the cluster from V1 to V2 because maybe you will have to recreate all your containers. I'm not so sure about that. You definitely have to recreate the containers because someone ran into an issue, not in Federa Chorus, but in OpenSUSE and MicroOS where I pushed a similar change to switch us to C Groups V2 and OpenSUSE and MicroOS, and somebody had a persistent container instance that was just being invoked, and on reboot it stopped working because the C Group of S stuff that it was pulling in for its settings were just no longer there and not available, and so if you were switching from C Group V1 to C Group V2, you need all instances that are saved on disk to be destroyed and recreated, otherwise they will not work. That seems to be a hard requirement. Sounds like it rakes things, or isn't it? Well, so normally a Kubernetes system is supposed to handle this transition itself. This is where when you don't have an orchestrator doing that migration for you, if you're doing this by hand, you can technically edit the existing running container instance and change all the settings, but that's such a pain in the butt that it's easier to tell people who are running podman or Docker or whatever on a machine directly to just blow and re-instantiate your containers because that should be fine. In a Kubernetes context and an OKD context, machine config operator should tell the rest of the operators managing the OKD cluster that container instances pods need to be reconfigured, but because Kubernetes instantiates them from pod definitions rather than leveraging the base container run times own ability to save container instance settings, we may not be hit by this issue, but it is still something to be wary of if you're instantiating containers directly on the machine. So from a general F cause perspective, don't expect your instances to survive the transition, but from an OKD perspective, I don't know of a reason why we would be in trouble with the transition. Vadim, do you have any reason to believe we would have a problem with that transition? No, we shouldn't because the change from C groups C1 to V2 is effectively kernel arguments change, meaning that requires a reboot and the old containers would just be destroyed or rather their new cubelets would not be able to pick them up because they don't look as it expects them to be. So it would recreate them automatically. But if you're running some podman containers there, those would be dead. But if you update to a version of F cause with this change we have, there was a lesson, a reboot. I think updating F cause always requires a reboot anyway. Yeah, we've always required. So my guess here is that because of the smartness or dumbness, depending on your point of view of how this actually works with Kubernetes, it should actually be transparent to okay users. Thanks for the context. So if I find my notes again, yeah, so that's the group C2. So that's coming in approximately two months. So yeah, after we we based on Fedora 34. All right. And the last item here that I have is Fedora, Fedora Chorus count me change. So we're changing. We're hiding a way to count count the number of Fedora Chorus notes and how long they live. It's something that we're rolling out across all our PM3 based variants of Fedora. So it's not just Fedora Chorus, it's SilverBoo2 and Fedora IoT. And it's not enabled yet in Fedora Chorus, but it will be available enabled in Fedora 34 for SilverBoo and IoT. So yeah, we want to we wanted to give a longer heads up for Fedora Chorus users. So this one is going to be available at least not before three months. So in stable, so you have three months to decide if you look at the change in the site if you want to to be counted or not. So the issue and the notes are here. Essentially it's a very, very it's a highly privacy preserving. It doesn't store anything. It doesn't send anything. It just basically says to the Fedora servers, hey, Fedora Chorus node and I've approximately lived this amount of time and it's very approximate. You basically cannot derive anything from that. So yeah, it's a really, really small counting method. Really, and we really care about privacy here. So, but yeah, if you feel uncomfortable about that, you are all and you can easily disable that it's just just a short masking a simple unit and that's it. You can do that ahead of time too. So if you do that right now in your nodes in a machine config you will never be counted. So yeah, that's mostly it. All the details there how to disable that it's all written in links in documentation that is linked into the issue I've just linked and we'll make public posts on the chorus menu list. We have a blog post on Fedora magazine coming up too. So this is going to be very public too. And all right and that's mostly it for me for incoming Fedora first changes. So just to be clear that the telemetry doesn't tell you that they're running the Fedora CoroS in OKD and any that's not going to be any visibility of what the source of the Fedora CoroS is. Yeah, it's there's nothing that would tell us that you are running in OKD. I don't think so. Is there? Yeah, sorry. It's just a count of how many it doesn't even identify the source company. It's just very just a count of how many Fedora CoroS instances there are out there in the universe. Yes, we absolutely do not spend anything about the node as part of the request. We essentially make only one HTTP get request. And what's it's the only information that we're sending with this request is that we are Fedora CoroS system using our PMO3 and that we've dipped approximately about one month, one week four months or more than that and the Fedora version underneath so if it's Fedora 30 if we're better Fedora 34 but that's about it. We don't send host names. We don't send high IP address but when you make an HTTP request the server has your IP address but we don't send the actual node IP address we don't send any other information. Looks good. That'll be helpful definitely for everybody who's in the community to have some visibility of that. That would be great. Any other questions for Timothy? Other than I think maybe a blog post I think might on the C Groups V2 stuff just so that people don't freak out when they hear it because it doesn't sound like it's as big of a deal as it sounds scarier than it is I think and so maybe a short blog post about that because when people read that they may freak a little bit but it was great to if we can test that early it'll be great and get some feedback on that so then inform the OCP engineers as well if something goes awry that's a great use. Yeah the C Groups V2 change is live right now in Federal Chorus Next. So if you want to try that out in your notes you can do that. Okay. So I'm going to switch topics just to docs for a little bit and people don't have questions for Timothy just because I wanted to sync up with Bruce around his the taxonomy work that he was doing that was just a gist file the last time I looked from the docs working group last week Bruce developed a nice a very nice taxonomy I don't know if you want to share that again did you get any further with that in terms of because blogging I committed to creating a blog out of that or are you in the throws of exams? Well I am in the throws but I did add a few more words at the top you wanted about 200 words and I don't think I quite got there but that's okay. You want to just share that with folks and maybe walk through it quickly and then I'll explain what we're going to try and do with this in terms of creating a primer on or checklist for people who are doing installs and deploys and let me just find it I did think I saw Jamie on the call so I'm going to put Jamie on the spot next so get ready okay this should be correct yeah okay so there's the that should get you to it okay do you want me to share the screen and then make my and then you can just explain what it is that we're doing and I'll just share screen it's just a text document so it's meant to be read with word wrap on otherwise as you see the things go sort of off into the sunset on the right hand side there there we go and I don't know if you can do that turn on word wrap from the wrong yeah okay so you should be able to see the screen yeah so basically the idea was just that a lot of people produce some excellent guides I'm probably a little bit partial to Craig's because that was the one that I was first most successful in getting running but often you need to make modifications to them based on your local situation and so I was you know basically trying to pull out in a visible way all of the choices that you need to think about if you were setting up a UPI distribution because you know sometimes the choices are deeply hidden in the the setup stuff so for instance going with with Charles you pretty much have to get in and actually look at some of the scripts to figure out what he's doing and in many cases I think the choices that you make aren't critical to get the end result running but you do have to know what you're doing you know once you get off script and it is helpful to know that I think because it takes a lot of work to put one of these you know blogs or whatever together and they get outdated almost immediately and that's just you know the way technology goes I don't think there's anything you do about that part but I think that if you're sort of aware of the underlying things that you have to do that that's helpful and it also might help you pick out the particular guide that you're going to try and follow so I was just laying out the choices and I think it's like I haven't really done anything in one way because I think it's obvious to most people that have been through it so I don't take much you know credit for just writing down the obvious and I sort of first pulled out just to get it out of the way you know the various you know cloud providers where you can use the infrastructure provided you know and because in theory I guess that should be relatively automatic and then went on to the the UPI and the so that's about it the I think I've got the choices that are in anybody's blogs that I've been familiar with so if there's any missing then just feel free to add them in the one thing that I didn't see much discussion on that I like to do personally is dealing with certificates because the browsers are getting much more hostile these days to self-sign certificates and since you can get a an actual domain for like 20 bucks for a .ca I think it's maybe 25 for a .com I mean it's fantastically cheap then it's not that hard to get real certificates and because you have to have a wildcard certificate you know like start on apps whatever then the let's encrypt and so on is a bit more on who you are to give you that so that's why that sort of interacts with having a real domain but again if you're going to have a hobby set up that's not going out on the internet then you don't really care about that so much until your browser doesn't let you connect to it at all which I can see coming so anyway so that's about it in more words I probably should have said so that's okay so what we're going to do is take that and turn it into sort of first a blog post that other people can add on to so because the blog post you can make a pull request against and merge in other suggestions and just using markup so I was going to take that next step now hopefully before next week and turn that into something but if people had other things that they thought should be on there just once it's posted or prior to it please feel free to lay it on because what we're thinking is this will end up not being a blog post but as we develop it and add maybe links to little blurbs for each of those items and not full on links to the total resources but to the appropriate snippet that it will be one of the pages in the guidance that Jamie and Mike McEwen have been working on so and just another page in there but I thought we would try and develop it out sort of in a collaborative way by getting people to give their tips on where the best write up was for each of these little things to get started because I think the approach that he has here with this it's nice because it's often you start down an install path and you don't think about everything else that's coming just hit the first install a couple of steps and you forget that you have all of these things in front of you so this is kind of yeah I like that, okay the pilot's pre-flight check so if you don't know what all of these terms are don't start yeah so maybe that's it so that's so thank you for doing that we walked through it last week and I just thought if I turn that now into a blog post and post it to the working group and ask people to to annotate it basically with links that's kind of where we're going so cool and he are you a pilot Bruce is that true yeah I am but only private license it's been a while it's been a while since I've flown to Albuquerque over the Rockies nice so that's where we're at with the checklist primer thing that Bruce has so kindly created Jamie you want to take over and talk a little bit about where you're at and what the update is on the docs coming out of the deployment and testing workshop effort so the last little bit I started on the weekend and probably will finish in the next day or two because basically taking all of the dependencies that are necessary that are in Chara's article and then putting them into the stub page he's got quite a lengthy article so it's taking me some time to get all the dependencies out once that's done we are good to go all of the other stub pages have been filled in and then we can just merge it in do a pull request or however we want to do it to get it merged into the okd repo awesome that's really that will be a really big push I think and a great outcome from that working group meeting and what we're doing the other thing is next week we have a docs meeting scheduled I am not available to run it and I'm wondering if we want to take a week off from the doc stuff or if someone else could host it and that would have to be a red header I think take a week off I'd like I don't really actually get the time off I'm in another session planning session that's just that if we want to have it I'm happy to host it okay Mike maybe we will because then you guys can work through if there's anything with the migration that didn't work or whatever we'll still have it and I will give you the power to create the blue jeans or I'll just turn the blue jeans on hit the record button for the other meeting if that's great you can either hit me up with the moderator code or something Diane we can coordinate if wants to take the week off apparently I can see Joseph wants to take a week off I was just going to say Joseph isn't getting the week off because I'm going to thank him out loud in front of everybody for something he's about to do and he is going to be our okd person on the OpenShift Commons he's going to be recording at KubeCon on May 4th he's going to be giving a talk that he's going to be recording on Monday this coming week and so we'll get that up and there and he's going to be our voice and face there for okd and also okd going to arrow so that's going to be yeah we'll get I got one little thing so we're going to do that and if you haven't registered for the KubeCon gathering it's free so just join up there and the only other good news that I have is that they finally are printing some okd t-shirts for me and I will have them available at KubeCon itself so if you visit me in the KubeCon okd booth whatever that is that they've set up for me then I will get you all links to get a t-shirt and self-order and pick the size and everything it took a bit of doing and unfortunately Joseph the version of the okd panda that you so beautifully recreated and flattened and made hipster and cool didn't meet brand standards so they made another panda but it's still a panda and so that's the good news but I really like Joseph's old panda too I expect to get a shirt from you again some day before it was completely okay it's a real life panda but I'm like yeah some day so yeah so that's the good news and I'm actually really looking forward to KubeCon and Joseph's talk and there's a whole bunch of other great talks too that a lot of them I just recorded an awesome one on Podman and all the related tools by some folks at IBM and WorkPay there's just some really good content there but KubeCon itself is going to be very interesting so if you're there come visit me because I'll be the one person hanging out in the okd booth for Community Central for a while if anyone else wants to hang out there that's a red-hatter I can get you in there it might be bitter at times it's not we put a lot of sugar into the lemonade there you go so cool yeah so that's what I thought I had for the agenda the other thing that we've been working on the docs or thinking about is really an overall docs strategy and to that end I think Amy's going to try and join and help us with that because she's done a lot of amazing work with the OpenStack community and so I'm going to try and use some of her expertise in maybe you know working with Jamie and Bruce and other folks and Mike all with us on the every other week so Amy might have jumped off because she had another call at the half hour but she'll be there next week too to tap so that leaves us with 30 minutes left or almost are there other things Vadim or anyone else that you want to bring up or any issues that are burning from Kubernetes Slack channel no, not really my only worry is that we would need a lot of testing on the vSphere bug and the fix we have in Nightly's and since it's pretty elusive it's rather hard to prove that it has gone away other than that I think we're in the clear we also revived our relationship with operator framework folks and next week we'll start working on the OkD specific catalog I'm not yet aware the level of my involvement there hopefully things will just start working but they might take quite a lot of time which means we would need some community testing other than that I think very good this vSphere bug you mean the hardware version yes and other open shift is the unrelated stuff because the fix is to effectively disable the offloading I think I'm not sure what would be the implication of that so hopefully we won't have any significant regression you have operator stuff I just put a link to folks caught up that there was a conversation about Kubert and tecton pipelines operator that were added to the wish list a couple days ago and Christian made an update so take a look at that and because of the vSphere thing maybe we could invite the people that reported the bug if it works with the nightly it would be great to get a positive result from them actually this was the bug was very poorly managed and that's my fault honestly it originates it from the GCP UPI issue which has been fixed by opening ports to not reproduce with an IPI and then since it had similar symptoms folks from vSphere have reported there as well it took me quite a while to actually figure out that it's in fact a different issue so on the vSphere testing is there an ask for I forgot to spell vSphere right is there an ask for this is there a link to the bug and what to test for I have a question because the F-Course people released new F-Course versions with hardware version 13 and before as this bug was reported they released F-Course with version 15 which in fact is a problem but currently F-Course is released with hardware version 13 it won't be a problem at all or shouldn't be a problem at all with new OKD installations so we should I don't know how to reproduce it with new installations users can change the hardware version on their own and unfortunately they are very inclined to do so because vSphere CSI requires something like 15 or maybe even 16 that leads to people installing things successfully then changing version trying to apply CSI drivers and network suddenly goes down which is very complicated it complicates the debugging a lot but apparently it's very easy to reproduce by just changing the version and installing things with OpenShift as the end going to write up a little vSphere testing protocol for this real quick it's basically just a paragraph and some links yes unfortunately it's not one that I can test because I'm stuck at hardware level 13 until we actually upgrade physical hardware so this isn't something I can even test and you were the one I was going to just ask if you could I would love to very complicated bug but does it if this fixed us solve things for vSphere does that mean that also of course people will switch to out of version 15 again is it related somehow to this bug no I think it's fair for initial Fedora CoreOS ISOs to stick to the lowest possible version so that folks on 6.5 could use it and users can upgrade the version on their own if they have to but it's definitely not related to the current issue actually just a great coincidence that we're starting with lowest version so is there anyone on this call that can test this I have never seen the problem I we are just stuck on OVN Kubernetes and we were not brave enough to change the network plugin in our production cluster to OpenShift STN 4.6 but if there is a version 4.7 with OpenShift STN working on vSphere we will try to migrate a cluster 4.5 cluster to 4.6 with OpenShift STN and this fix if it's available is this something Vadim that we could maybe get you to put a short email out to the group mailing list just to get people the awareness of this to the other vSphere stuff and just if you really want feedback on this bug I'm just trying to think of a little out of the box here rather than just asking in the working group because there are about 300 people lurking on that OKD working group mailing list right that's one of the options I'm just thinking that it won't be very easy to gather feedback on that I think I'll start with poking people at OpenShift Dev select channel because the feedback loop would be shorter and if we don't get anything we'll start with the mailing list at least maybe you could post a link to the issue and ask people to document it I think it's worth trying and then just ask them for feedback on OpenShift Dev if that's where you want it just come over there so yeah you sort of sound like you have two maybe volunteers Bruce and Joseph but it probably takes more than just the two of us two folks to do some real actual testing not that you're not worthy is there anything else that we should be raising up here anything else anyone is working on that's exciting I have a question I raced it up on the dev and I didn't get a response so I'm playing with ICO 1.9.2 and one of the things that I seem to have found is that it doesn't like config deployment configs DCs has anybody ran into that I had to convert a bunch of stuff to just deployments just wondering if anybody's seen anything like that with this to you in particular I can tell you John that we were switching from deployment configs to deployments with our customers just to be more to Kubernetes and I didn't understand if you want to have an experience report of that but it's a matter of a few seconds from the deployment config to deployment and the difference is that you have to restart on every push of your images you have to restart your containers but you can mitigate that with if you use GitOps tools like AugustaD we use AugustaD and AugustaD can help you a lot in restarting deployments if new images are available we use Jenkins for a lot of our deployment stuff because I probably have about 150 deployment configs and going through and changing those is just going to be a pain I was just wondering if somebody had any experience with it you need something that restarts your containers and if you use I can heavily propose to use AugustaD or GitOps tool like that that changes your image tag and AugustaD will roll out your new deployment and restart your containers with that All righty like I said I fairly give it a whirl because the Istio group didn't have anything to say about it either so I don't know if deployment configs are just not supported in Istio which I would find odd but maybe not since it's not Kubernetes specific so anyway that's all I got I think a default since a few OpenShift or OKD versions is to use deployments not deployment configs I read something about on that in change logs that the new default is in OpenShift are deployments and not deployment configs Yeah we use a bunch of templates so but yeah it's just one of those things about moving to a new system and trying to use new technology you have to re-reduce some of our work but that's probably a good thing in general Thank you man Cool Anybody else's problems we can solve in the next 10 minutes otherwise I might give you all 10 minutes back and we'll get Mike to use that up to run next meeting I would propose to block all 4.7 releases until the next release if it works and has solved all problems that we were suffering since a few releases like this harder version thing the problem with the routers and so on I would really like to propose to block all intermediate releases if that is possible so users that want to upgrade from 4.6 get a fine 4.7 release that works out of the box without any surprises Actually if we've got a few more minutes I could comment on that as well because the like I just saw this morning somebody was looking for somebody was asking for a long-term support version which Kristen properly shot down because this is self-supported anyway but it could be what the person was actually trying to get at that a stable stream is really stable as opposed to a testing stream or a next stream or something like that and from Vadim's comment I could understand that it would be complicated to set up these other streams but I could interpret what Joseph was just asking for as a stable stream and so anybody that's wanting to actually use this for real as opposed to just a testing lab doesn't want things to have the potential of breaking whenever they're doing a new version because you can lose like two weeks and reinstall and redeploy everything from source which is a bit inconvenient From my perspective what we have currently is a fast channel and not a stable channel we always in every version of OkD we have a point that we have a stable version but since 4.6 we have lots of not so stable versions I would expect more in a fast channel I think a stable channel was really community approved stable tag would be a great idea When you say stable do you mean zero bugs? Do you mean unupgradable? Not zero bugs but something like the hardest problems that block you completely are solved like we have tests to ensure that we know that vSphere and AWS are uninstallable and upgradable it doesn't mean your particular setup will install but there is no viable way how we can do that I can understand a custom version plus OpenShift as the end but that would explode our metrics by a million OCP has nightlies and we only block on two jobs the others are informing mostly because we won't be able to keep up with the level of testing we need to Maybe an idea it's an idea that if you get the feedback from enough people that the version is absolutely fine that we market a stable that means we won't have a stable version in months in maybe years maybe I mean I'm fine with that the problem is we have to support the existing stable version which we have declared previously stable I mean somebody has to do this work I am not signing up this ever but if we have a rolling this through that's absolutely okay but maybe it makes sense if enough people say in this rolling this through we have one channel we mark some versions as more stable than the others and they go over to a different channel which gets not updates every two weeks we're getting to the point of talking about now we're gonna have checkpoints and stable release tags and like yeah no if we do that like first of all Fedor Corios people will be very angry with us if we start doing that because they don't they are trying very hard to kill that idea flat on the ground and the OCP people will be angry at us because now we are going to create a problem in which we are either holding back things but they are themselves releasing to production which creates all kinds of weird questions about what is upstream side stream downstream what's the release cadence what's going on here like it is not practical for us to move like that and it is also not practical for us to suggest that we can move slower than OCP itself because at the end of the day there are the folks making like the majority of the code that makes the OKD thing if there is a problem with your use case or whatever and you don't have a way to make sure it stays fixed then that is a defect in the testing apparatus and not a defect in the code base because fixing it once and then having a test to make sure it doesn't break again is the whole effing point I don't know if it's if my wish is something feasible but maybe all people that use OKD in production maybe you understand me that it would be great to have some kind of tag that assures you that yeah lots of people say this version is absolutely usable because I had a few situations with my team that we were maybe you can follow my chat conversations that we had situations that were great with OKD but also we had upgrades that were absolutely mess a few ones I can perfectly understand the goal to have the stable release and we have the stable release the question is how do we achieve this in a feasible way so that we wouldn't have to wait for somebody on PTOs to get us the final approval to actually release it absolutely it sets a question things that would mitigate it that wouldn't be that terrible I know that sometimes something that is totally silly can take your entire cluster down in a non-recoverable way so like I lost my test cluster because of the non base64 encoded password authentication part which had worked up until then certainly it would have been really because it had worked through many upgrades it would have been nice if the release notes had said oh hey by the way this is going to kill your system if you don't fix this first because once the system was going the MCO would not pick up the new correct pull secret it just kept perseverating and like on Slack when I put that up Vadim said try this I tried that it didn't work John said oh yeah I had to rebuild my system and okay so fine that's a tricky part world of hurt this is a tricky part we effectively cannot automatically test it because all our CI systems have to report back so that we could collect meaningful stats this is a very way of going back okay like you know I haven't found any approved way of regressing an upgrade the previous version so that you can try again restart you can restore from the backup so it's the only way to roll back the upgrade you can cd backup or cd backup yeah okay this d-backup does not fix if any host OS upgrades are a problem the host apps OS is reverted by our PMOS 3 rollback commands just to correctly if your system has been working perfectly when you do a net city backup MCD would notice that you actually should have put it in the previous deployment and do that for you but that assumes that MCD can actually do deployments but at some point you probably might have to help it and do things manually how much old OS versions are sorry you were you were well I believe the backups are manual right yes that's a feature which would fix right many other systems do an auto backup before they upgrade that's the tricky part we only have a cluster so when we can make a snapshot but there is no place to store it because all you have is a cluster it has to be stored somewhere else you can save it on the disk space and if your node goes down and I don't know we corrupt the file system then this backup is unrecoverable the backup is stored outside of the cluster if your cluster burns down because of a fire at some point you're not going to be able to recover but in a less catastrophic thing then that would help it just gives a full sense of security that yay we made the backup don't worry but actually it's stored down there so it has to be scripted probably we should stress that more in the dogs that make backups it's a critical part if you want to roll back before this busy hands and we keep going down this rabbit hole I just have to ask something do we actually have a way to show people how many people are on a particular version of okd or something I vaguely recall that we have telemetry do we have some graph or something that we could put on a web page somewhere that's different types of things are on the versions it's all private yeah it's all private background stuff also the problem is that only folks who are using red heads full secret are signed in so this number which is around 500 now doesn't tell us anything it doesn't tell us how many are outside do the count mean from fedora might give us some ballpark number but again it's very hard to say we should we ask to figure out a way to leverage count me to say this is an okd fcause node and count those and whatnot like I don't want something something if the actual ask is what it sounds like is that somebody wants to know how many people are on a particular snapshot version whatever on a different type of infrastructure that should be a question we can answer we can answer that using telemetry but not with counting time to break time out so I would like to move this into either the kubernetes chat channel or onto the mailing list I think it's good content but I do have to kill you all and stop this this meeting now so I can jump into another one because I can see the next ground if folks are joining but you know it's definitely you know the more testing we can do the better I'm just going to the messages we are earning we are earning money with okd currently and we are switching to OpenShift because we have lots of business critical applications running on okd that's perfectly fine for us but it's absolutely great for getting your feet on kubernetes cloud technologies and sets why it is worse to get okd in your company yes we all want you all to make money any way you can we all want you to test so thank you all we'll have something on the 20th and the docs Joseph I'll talk to you again we can talk about this in your talk on Monday that you're recording so we'll get there thank you all for coming today and always a pleasure thank you bye bye bye


Well, my name is Ann Wright. I'm a former U.S. diplomat. I was 16 years in the State Department. We're standing here to say no to Victoria Neuland to be nominated as Deputy Secretary of State. She's right now Acting Secretary of State, which is very dangerous for American foreign policy and military policy. She is a horror. She has been part of the warmongering machine since the time of Dick Cheney, who was a mentor for her. She supported the war in Iraq. She's been terrible when it comes to NATO expansion. She was the U.S. Ambassador there. And now, in this war in Ukraine, she's probably the number one person who has been responsible for having the U.S. provoke Russia with the expansion of NATO, with the U.S. involvement interfering in the 2014 Maidan uprising that turned into a coup, with the constant provocations that has led us into this war right now. And so she should definitely, as the last person who should be representing the United States and the State Department, we need real diplomats, not warmongers like Victoria Neuland. Victoria Neuland is a very dangerous person, and we, the American citizen, we should oppose any nomination for her as Deputy Secretary of State.