you would want because it's gotten so muddled with all of 343s contributions that i think at this point they're just lumped in with the general like xbox fans and those guys are just psychos in general apologies to all the xbox fans several those you guys need to sort some stuff out some of those red face emojis gonna come up and out of the youtube ones the angry looking guy i love halo flying what i i guess uh i guess the point being that like you know what what should like a halo show look like is an adaptation what should it be looking towards it feels like it we should always be pointing to the original games because those are the ones that have like the universal legacy whereas our 343 stuff is nice device them yeah i mean if you were gonna adapt something why would you make it hard on yourself by adapting the parts that people generally really don't like in that have ruined the series quite frankly well i what i wondered this entire time is why don't they just do the halo games and then if that works out do a better call sol style prequel that covers your stupid not expanse storyline that you want to do now that you've earned it but they don't want to earn it they just want to do their thing some of the ends of happening with a lot of these adaptations is uh you'll get people rolling out the defense of like you don't want the same thing you want to let them experiment let them move around and uh it's like you wouldn't want that and i've seen the response before and i have to say well just like can we do that one time i just want to do it one time and once it's done and it's bad because that's what everyone assumes really like yeah sure fine we'll reference that as the time we did it and it was bad but i just i don't think i buy it anymore the like uh if you did it once you know like if byrishaw gets adapted it's probably gonna be like once it's finished or whatever it's it's like there's so much to work with the blueprint is so ready to go but they're probably gonna fuck with it to god knows how much ends and they have to have to modernize it so that the political messaging doesn't get confused i'm so glad you mentioned that i i watched i watched all the halo declassifieds for this um like that like the behind the scenes commentary and okay yeah they throw them up on youtube is like the behind the scenes talking about that week and they'll usually have an interview with one of the cast members um so there was uh there was an interview with kiki wolfkill for those of you don't know she's like one of the big people responsible for halo's destruction uh she was like big executive producer at like three four there i don't think she's there anymore i think she's now like works at microsoft in like trans media so like all of the adaptations and anything that they want to do with like xbox stuff and so she's an executive producer on the uh on the show and when you know us essentially like what is that i look forward to in season two um she said we've taken some risks in the past and continue to do so in our storytelling but we do it from a place where we hope the fans will enjoy being able to see these characters come to life in different ways and telling these rich character stories with them in situations that they experience differently from the games so first of all you might notice that's word salad but the sentiment is like look all right there are things that you recognize but there's a whole bunch of stuff that's new and three four three's been saying this for a decade like they they will say this kind of thing frequently there was um there was a quote from uh in the halo four behind the scenes this one's particularly funny because of how arrogant it is um oh damn let me see if i can oh uh i think he said basically it was i don't think people want just another halo game they may think they want that but what they really want is something that speaks to the things they love but provides them with something new that's a you think you do but you don't yes pretty much like you may think that you want that but you don't um i'm almost certain that every element of the show has is filled with artists who think that they're going to be giving something they're going to be like you're going to love this trust me and then they're going to be like what look at the ratings how did this happen oh and uh i guess for the for the fun of it so bear in mind that this is from like a decade ago so these were the kind of things that were being said in behind the scenes for halo four of like talking about the motivations for halo four so here's just like a bunch of quotes all right master chief is human he's not a machine he's not a set of armor with a big weapon is he human with resilience and courage and then the narrative director said what happens when that soldier starts to discover his humanity doesn't that feel like incredibly reminiscent of like the general you know idea with like season one and two of this show ah yeah the soldier discovering his humanity well soldiers aren't human that was some that was some bullshit i heard about this season was that this was supposed to be an exploration of master chief and versus the persona and john halo and i just i just didn't believe it because they really didn't delve into it like john halo looks wistfully at a poster of him in his armor and then like just decides to go on a murder spree at an ony base yeah it's it's crazy isn't it um i i i like this one as well and a lot of this about halo four in a lot of ways the story we're telling with halo four is about putting cheap in circumstances where he's forced to change he's walking himself it's all these kinds of things oh i like this one the art director said chief and katana are the same person but she has always been the reflection of his humanity they're not the same person they're in what they're look like i get that you have you know nothing about halo i just tell me you don't know anything they're two different people i guess i guess what i'm getting at so how did they get separated was that like split personality like i guess you lost this feminine side oh what i'm like getting at as this uh it's like really what you look at with like this show in a sense it's kind of like inconceivable that it could manifest but in in a similar way it's like yeah but given the direction that halo is taken with like changes in the narrative and the kind of approach that's being taken with the 343 games on the one hand you can also see how this is kind of like where it starts to lead towards because what halo looks like you know who master chief is kind of like the purpose of the series what the central conflict is about has started to shift over time towards what i guess is funny now is that whereas you know you could say that maybe like 15 years ago a character like master chief was very um archetypical and not abnormal as like a character especially in the realm of video games right of like the stoic man a few words or doesn't say anything at all kind of like protagonist who just like goes in saves the day and is a cool hero but like at this point with all of these attempts at like deconstructing master chief like it's it's it would be downright refreshing to have a show where like master chief was uh adapted faithfully as being who he is uh like the stoic generally static you know hero who saves the day and is brave and doesn't afraid of anything there's a lot of different permutations of being able to get these sorts of ideas across that are very faithful and respectful to the source material um and it's a shame that they just they clearly just had another agenda it's very obvious this will this show's legacy will be one that's just used as an example of what not to do of how to show like spite and hatred towards the thing that you're adapting and of course for the record if halo didn't exist other than this show it would still be fucking terrible yes it is a terrible show beyond like think about everything that we've laid out in terms of the actual cause and effect of these events it's insanity it's it's insane it's like i i don't know that there's anything that you can point to that is actually like just rock solid that there isn't like you know massive asterisks for and most of the time it's just completely broken to the core um something i thought about when the scene where john halo gets beaten is um you can tell they kind of wrote it like the typical here's the main character and he's getting beaten by a girl doesn't that upset you fanboys but it's like it no because john halo is so unrecognizable that it there's no impact yeah i'm on kai's side here beat up that psycho for the safety of humanity yeah the sad part was that he lived yeah so in a lot of ways she was acting and has kind of a character and he's a halo show is so diverse from the series that she got reached killed does everyone remember that she portrayed reach she's got her own issues okay yeah she's got issues she's better than master chief as a character he got a plan erect well no she didn't get anything like that was gonna happen no matter what that was actually that was like because no one tried to do it she didn't ask any questions he's glad with the people that's that's that's true um but i mean it's like this is this is what's actually gonna bring us to something that i think is like an interesting uh uh topic that's like tangential to this which is um if you would have think about what do you think the main theme of this season of halo was like what do you think it would be if you could point to something friendship is my identity a singular theme i would probably i would say that maybe the central theme is uh it is something along the lines of not trusting authority uh i think that you're getting close to it but i would put it under a subcategory of the unifying question which is what does it mean to be a soldier seems to be like the big question that they they keep asking over and over again in season two you might recall that there have been a lot of really like weird lines throughout the season like you know what you know why why do you fight is what parengoski asked like uh john halo gives a lot of normal answers like to preserve humanity protect people and she says no you you fight because i tell you to you're a soldier be a soldier stuff like that and they keep there's a lot of the conversation about like following orders you're meant to follow orders soldiers meant to follow orders yeah but i don't know if i want to follow orders because that makes me a machine there's like a whole bunch of that in there and a lot of that is tied up in john halo and kai and i think that it gets very murky because you know what like the idea that kai was just following orders it's like well she was just following john halo's orders but he was doing things that he was lying to them he like he he recruited them on an unsanctioned mission because he had a hunch that he believed it was correct and sure he was but like he went outside the chain he lied to them when they might not have agreed to it if he had done it and that got them in trouble and it's like well surely that makes things more complicated if the idea is that like john halo is in the right for the whole idea of like yeah kai you followed orders like a machine is that all you are a machine and it gets particularly awkward when kai disobeyed orders and was very questioning in season one um like in season one she literally has a line that says do you ever wonder why you never wonder why it's weird to make kai the vast like the vessel of just follow orders this is what you get is kai it's like what do you mean that's not that's not even really who she is and like you're faulting her for essentially using her own faculties which is john halo is coming across like unhinged she's got no evidence for the claims that he keeps making which whether or not that's like some crazy shit that's going on well and she was covering for john for a while yeah she was she covered for a bunch of people just went fucking dead and they don't have an explanation for and then cobalt team fucking didn't do there's no don't ask questions don't just let the planet get exploded yeah but like i i guess i find it strange it would be the idea that like kai is the most culpable for that one like it was definitely perun goski and ackerson and only in the unseq well my issue with her is that she drilled down at all it would get very suspicious so just asking any questions would have led her to being like oh i can't trust my superiors like asking one or two questions for sure like she she goes along with it like the big thing should be we left right before reach fell man that's fucking lucky and all the unseq like like amanda here that's crazy yeah but i like i don't know why why we're leaning in the direction like this somehow absolves and saves john halo like in any way shape or form that's what he was right he talked like a normal person for the rest of us from it he was right everybody everybody did not believe him when he was right okay so people in power were all conspiring against him he tried to tell everyone but he was right well let's let's run through like the the cause and effect of thinking about the nature of it let's think of the the genesis of him being right about what happened on reach was they went to sanctuary to evacuate civilians he went to a calm relay that went down and then the covenant attacked and then they began glancing the planet the conclusion he drew from that is the covenant preparing to invade a planet and then he eventually concludes that it's reach where's the through line there where is the where's the logic in that connection the through line was that they don't do that that's what that's how he said that that's not their normal mo don't want to explain where the hell all these bodies went how people were killed that's later that's after he already concluded that the covenant was on reach that was that was later on that they discovered the empty base and everything so like it's a hunch that's what that's the thing that's that's to be noted it is a hunch based on a pretty limited set of information i think you have to accept that that's a very small amount of information to conclude that the covenant's going to invade not only that that they're on reach that they're already on reach and they're going to be invading very soon i suppose but why else would they be why else would they be doing training exercises or like as there's a war going on with colonies well obviously they're working for something bigger no all he doesn't have to be killed the issue of world building is we don't really know how big human space is so like from the vibe of the show it feels like human space is earth reach and then like a bunch of random basically uninhabited planets they said something along the lines of how like they sort of casually mentioned how like what was it six or so planets got like destroyed or whatever yeah so we we actually have no clue it's something that kind of throws a wrench into things um so they're changing the whole mo and doing all these training exercises for useless as a war well the thing is he concludes it's one of the wars to win he concludes it's a training exercise when his here's an explanation for what could have happened on sanctuary the covenant had been on the planet they were exploring the planet they found out that humans were there and they were doing some excavation like they did in season one when they were on madrigal before they destroyed the planet looking for forerunner artifacts it could just happen to be that they were in an area where there was a comms relay and they took there's another one of those artifacts that they want oh well reach i i but what is that i'm just saying that like there's reasons why they could be doing what they're doing that don't indicate that this is simply a training exercise for an invasion they could be on sanctuary because i got like a reason to be looking around john halo doesn't know like he did he just doesn't have that much information to make this conclusion that's all i'm saying well and he he had also died when everybody in power starts to deny that anything ever fucking happened but that's all insane plot shit like that's the kind of thing it is i guess what i'm saying is like how the hell is kai supposed to how the hell is she's supposed to sort through the fact that apparently the unse is like actively working in opposition to john halo to get him killed to create the spot in three program and that that would be the rationale for the decisions when on its face it just looks like john halo is unhinged and it's not like that's past him he is unhinged he did some unhinged shit his personal behavior is off the rails he he does a really good job at acting like a crazy person it's kind of amazing he's still inactive duty to be honest it's considered one of our complaints for the show is that there's no way that they should just let him walk around and do stuff with how he's especially because he died and his corpse was profited by an ai yeah when he because it's funny it's funny that ackerson is presented as basically saying like that he's the bad guy in the things that he's saying but like when he says you so you interacted with mackey and that's putting it lightly you had cortana in your brain you you are not presenting me with any evidence for your claims even though he should have the evidence but again that feels like more of a plot problem than it unless it's a character he's claiming to see her we have a camera like from ackerson's perspective he's just presenting things like would he says if you were in my shoes would you trust you and it's like that's a good fucking point because no he is not trustworthy he's unreliable like nina reminds you that in season one he he tried to melt halsey he like locked her in a nation room to radio you know and bomb her with radioactiveness so that she would melt it's like he's crazy he's a crazy guy um he constantly breaks the channel command he goes like he goes on unsanctioned missions um he never like steals equipment yeah he recruits artans into doing shit constantly bullies riz he's like black changes you would go against all the people that are trying to blow up reach yeah but that seems crazy what our point is did we listening to the points that we were raising there he's acting like a crazy person yes he's acting like a crazy person is 10 times crazier from kai's perspective he is acting like a really crazy person which will inform her decision whatever about kai right that's what this conversation is about we're talking about we're talking about like uh what she has reason to believe and it's like so from kai's perspective in season three in episode three which is basically when she decides to work with our ackerson it's like well what information do we have we have that john halo lied to the entire team to bring them on an unsanctioned mission that yeah sure everything about it is strange but it's like you lied that's already not good for us we had a training exercise earlier where riz despite being very injured john halo like irrationally pushed her to the point that she nearly died in the training exercise and then of course you you included that she said he said i saw makin it's like well i shot her like so i know that's dead people add all the add all that together and the fact that kai has absolutely no reason to believe that the unse and only would concoct such an insane plan from her perspective it's like sure there were more questions for her to ask but like john halo is unhinged yeah he could have done a way better job of achieving his goals if he truly believes what's happening is that instead of becoming a crazy zombie i think this massively muddies the themes of just follow orders because kai was not just following orders in going against uh john halo john halo is her superior giving her orders that she didn't believe in she used her own brain with the information that she had available to form a conclusion she was wrong and she admits that she was wrong but like she wasn't just following orders it would have been just following orders to follow john halo to the end when his rationale wasn't making sense to her like this is what i mean when i say it's like it's really like muddy on the thematic side and then he's like carl urban and doom to add further problems to the net when you think about uh the nature of the expectation of the covenant invading reach um it should have been a foregone conclusion they were going to invade reach because in season one mackey escaped from reach on a covenant phantom so she would they would assume they would have to have assumed that she told uh the prophets where reach was and that it was inevitable that they would be coming there not that it was inevitable that they had found reach and were doing crazy stuff and it meant that the covenant fleet was going to be coming but that it was inevitable they were just going to be on their way and soon um and so that just creates new plot problems of like well the world isn't reacting and responding to this information but that's not like a kai problem she's in a very unique position where there's only so much that she can do as one individual in a broader you know uh machine like kai's got problems for sure but like i find it weird to create a dichotomy where like she's doomed and john hail was fine like i don't i just don't see that working at all okay um sure i'll i'll give you that one kai had reason to believe i guess that the person she grew up with was insane but well it sounds like he had well i mean he had he just had had so much he had so much hard evidence i just don't i mean well go to all the events we just referenced right like i would be worried about him i have to say the least and yeah the i like coming up with these these ideas as to to explain a bunch of things that are just outside of her even reasonable worldview uh yeah he could have done a way better job of getting his certainly don't you think it's because otherwise there wouldn't be like the retard the retard storyline but it's their retarded storyline yeah okay there everything's right i agree it makes sense the body i think it's on that a person basically tells her that master she's crazy right he's like yeah no explanation no i i i agree but that's like a but like surely you would accept that that like why why why why is it not of massive consequence that one john halo now sees dead people which is really fucking bizarre um two that he lied to his entire team instead of telling them the truth so that they could go on a mission like that's a big breach of trust that's obviously gonna have an impact and that when he can't present any evidence he doesn't present his camera which i would see is more of a plot problem but maybe it's a character problem if he's forgotten that he has a helmet camera that records things when he shows the flight plan and he screams they changed this like well i mean i'm look how no they do in season one we see a helmet cam in episode one where he went to madrigal and like retrieve the forerunner artifact the keystone we see a camera they got cameras so season two but yeah uninstalled one and season one season one yeah yeah they show that they have a helmet camera yep so he was good he was gonna go from mexican girls so he whether they go with the writers the writers forgot about it i just forgot about them allow them to make the plot happen saying there aren't any cameras because the writers forgot them then no i'm saying that's a plot hole that's a plot yeah um that he has cameras and that's evidence that he should be aware of and that only and i the unse should be aware of and exist and they just pretend it doesn't exist because otherwise this story wouldn't happen it's just a plot hole yeah good old plot holes in halo yeah i know that's crazy it means they don't exist in season two because they are what i don't understand what you mean when you say like it doesn't exist and what do you what do you mean a plot hole isn't a solution to the problem it is a problem it is a problem the problem is but it doesn't erase the fact that they don't exist well no but i because they're gone because of the plot hole well what i mean is well the way that i would look at it is you establish that they have the cameras and then you forgot about them not that they disappeared from they don't do that i they did forget about them what do you mean they did forget about them but they don't ever in any point reference them no i know they don't that's what i'm saying that's that's what i'm saying that's what the the hole is is that the camera i'm not saying they made up i'm so confused getting these things they it's i know because it's a plot hole i understand that all right it wasn't a plot hole they would have done all those things but they the writers forgot but they forgot so they just don't exist in the season following now you're saying they don't exist because the writers forgot to put them in i understand it's just semantics like they could they could come back into existence i don't see what the point is of the distinction well so what what would the conclusion be from that then from yeah therefore i think you would analyze the story like what's the conclusion from a writing standpoint there that they were trying to create even more conflict or more of a reason to make john look like you know insane i i guess what i would say is the conclusion there is you got to you got to pick a poison of some kind which is either the the john halo forgot that he had a camera for which he could present evidence just out of curiosity i'm all i'm all interested in the theory at this point so would that not apply episode to episode and scene to scene as in even moment to moment as in like if they established they were working in episode one but they weren't around and all referenced in episode two couldn't i just say yeah that they're not in episode two uh no that would well i mean if they don't address them at all that would be very very very strange after episode one but if they don't show up at all well i just mean kind of use the same logic you are as in they're not in episode two but they're in episode one and three well like the reason why the reason why uh kai mistrust john halo is because of stuff that happened between season two and three that put her in a position where that's how she felt as a character because that's what we see happen you know that's the event that takes place so we have to move forward from there yeah you know like because if if like a jet i needs to get through a door that's tough and we're like why didn't use his lightsaber and it's like they just did they forgot he had it in that scene that still makes it a problem for that character that they didn't decide to use it you wouldn't say yeah but he doesn't have it because the writers forgot it you like no he does have it it's there he didn't use it that's what that is now thanks to the writers fucking up and in the case of this it would be the cameras why that i think we're just kind of viewing this um entirely differently like you're you guys are approaching it from this is the universe this is where these things exist these things do exist in this universe they should exist in this universe i'm looking at it from the perspective that if the writer doesn't put it in there but they did in season one they did in the first they did but if they don't in the second season yeah but like i said so if we go scene by scene can we make the same argument it's the same continuity how do you mean well i mean you kind of make the same argument you if you look at it from a perspective of you can't assume that any piece of equipment exists because it's implied that it should exist we're not even saying it should in the sense of any other thing than they told us it does it's it's kind of like um writing for the writers i guess you know you shouldn't imply that something exists or work off the audience if i if i can throw something in here i wonder if er what you're getting at is like in with the production of season two and new show runners the show runners might have decided you know what we're not going to do video cameras in the helmets for this one well then then you have to be acknowledged yeah yeah that's what we're saying it's a changing can or a changing continuity needs to be addressed because that's a huge that's a pretty big change that would that like that's a plot affecting change that needs to be addressed mr chief just right but i'm just wondering if i'm just wondering if that's a way of clarifying what er is thinking about this matter well i guess that brings it back to all this question of like well couldn't you go scene by scene then new scene or new episode new new director for that new director i mean you could i think so uh but i mean well i think an episode director is different than a series showrunner right i mean the latter is a much more radical i think it should be clear the split between season one and two is a meta one it isn't i'm down with this i'm down with this right can't assume that any thing is in a scene unless it's explicitly said to be in that scene so like you can't assume that master chief has an energy sword unless he's shown picking up the energy sword well there's i'm there's limits to that well there's there's limits to that right because they don't have the time to explain everything that's in that make the argument i was shown that he had a camera in his suit that looks the same as the suit that he had in season one therefore he has i feel like this show understands what we're talking about only sometimes just like ryan johnson for example if he had come to fight arbiter without showing us his gun had been damaged we'd be like where the fuck was his gun and they knew that that's why they showed it damage to a town yeah and then you can go even broader than that like they felt compelled to tell us that madrigal got destroyed because if they didn't tell us we would be lost just like wait why is quiet what happened that there's a there's a degree to which the writers understand well you've got to show people i mean it's the same it's just like general filmmaking continuity right you need to show if you're going to show a character moving in a certain direction so that a character can understand like where they're going or if it was like we're getting tied up in the same kind of conversation where someone says we don't need to see them drive to a location you know to know that they got to that location it feels the same here of like would you show me a camera once in a in a suit and that's the same suit that's the same continuity what season it is to be able to benefit from the continuity of season one which this season does they have to also take everything from season one they can't pick and choose exactly and 99 percent of the things that are implied to exist logically we would agree on there's a there's a actually a very very thick line of agreement that we can all you know accept to the point where we don't even think about it or talk about it whether it's internal organs pants underwear you know adjacent rooms ceilings you know pieces of furniture like all that stuff is implied to be there and there's no there's never even any discussion about it because it's accepted so easily and logically well and i think this is especially critical because it would have been brought in as a thing to help them achieve something else at the time and now it's being ignored to prevent relevant i agree that it's a problem it they should have had just had a line that said that only destroyed the evidence at some point uh i mean only disable the cameras on the on the same yeah that's one way to create the thing is i'd say that creates new problems for them because then john would be like why do i not have my camera here kai we don't have my camera yeah but they can they can they can write that you say john you forgot to turn your camera on you can do that you could say that the camera systems have to be recycled it's a solvable problem obviously they resolve like the the software is fucked on the cameras or something you can make some note right you can come up with something that's more i guess i'm saying is that you will create changes because i imagine that would be a piece of information where kai would go that's weird that is a hum also that i actually think that would be good in terms of giving her reason to start to investigate you know that's a little suspicious that's a little strange yeah and you could have made it way stronger not having a pothole remove cameras and then you know and then she's trying to convince her if he was well written he could be like you really think all of our cameras just happen to have software glitches is that what you think yeah exactly it's um there are definitely ways to get it to fix it but this is kind of what i mean is like the show the way that it is right now it's like well that's just a big problem and like in the absence of solving a lot of these problems you end up making so that your theme gets very confused because like i just don't see how kai being the just follow orders person like it doesn't really work well when she has reasons that she came to conclude using her own brain to uh make the decisions that she did it's like you're the one who just follows orders not like me who demands that you follow me no matter what because we grew up together like that's not she didn't just follow orders though she was ordered to say something about the chief and she knowingly lied about it to cover for his insanity exactly that's why i think it i think it doesn't work to be like yeah you're the just follow orders lady not like me who demand your loyalty to me yeah questioningly like john halo it's weird as well because john halo seems to recognize that he kind of did that with riz by just pushing her to beyond her limits that he was just making her follow orders as well but at the same time he doesn't seem to recognize how he's done that in other ways because john halo is a dumb person like john halo is a dumb dumb the fact that he got it right is not a consequence of like some really intelligent thoughtful decision making like it shouldn't justify insanity just because the person is right it's yeah like it's yeah that's a post hoc sort of like john halo would have also been right if he grabbed a gun and just started shooting everybody that that was an oni to try to solve the problem but that wouldn't have been a justified decision on his part if you reach if you reach the correct conclusion through shoddy you know reasoning you can't be like we'll see i was right all along you know that's i think like how it works something i would want to say about john halo because i think it is the most frustrating aspect about him from a writing standpoint is um my my big problem was john halo is essentially they've made him insane because it means that they can do whatever they want any crazy decision he makes anything that creates new drama because he goes over the top and does something stupid or yells at someone uh puts puts across his argument in the most stupid way possible you can always appeal to yeah but he's an unhinged lunatic discovering his emotions so you know it's just like an easy shortcut to any drama that they want at any plot point that they want because he's so unpredictable in a sense um it's boring it's lazy we were we were talking about during the viewing that a lot of the decisions seem to just hinge on how can we get the next scene to happen uh yeah pretty much and you can see with a lot of other things as well because like we've not spoken much about ackerson but like ackerson's a bit of a dumb dumb um not just because of his reach plan being insane uh but like it's even down to things like um why would ackerson be antagonistic to john halo and his first conversation when it's actively against his interest to have john halo opposed to him dramatically that doesn't help him yeah it doesn't get him anyway it will be that john halo actually did discover things that would fuck him over by getting him so aggressive but like why would you say in your first scene you know like oh well you know you you like would you trust you you're a bit of a crazy guy and that's like well that's stupid it's the same with parent goski why did she confront john halo about just follow orders you idiot it's like why do you think this would work why would you do this other than to prompt him to become uh opposed to you so that he can kick off his new plot line and not trusting you when he starts to view it through the lens of yeah well where do you want to get us which is very transparent in this show kind of it's just like fuck it becomes so obvious why any character makes any decision in any scene or says something stupid uh or acts in a way that's contrary to their interests it's like well that advances the plot i really didn't like that ackerson was supposed to be this like sympathetic villain towards the end to where it's like actually he was being fucked over one tear up so but because when you introduce that logic that it goes okay so who's fucking with parent goski then no she's just she's the bad guy okay so she that that's where the line stops the buckins there yeah she's at the top of the hierarchy i think right i mean i don't know anybody really a military commander of course what's weird on the one hand they acknowledge ackerson is not actually her subordinate but they do basically heavily imply that he basically followed her like he did what she told him to do that the reach thing was ultimately her plan yeah so i just i don't understand what the kind of what they're trying to extract from that like why is ackerson joining team halo at the end of the season um because he drama it was basically because parent goski was like let's use world war one wave tactics with the Spartan threes that's what throws them off he doesn't want the Spartan threes to die in world war one era just throw them at the enemy with no strategy or coordination at all i mean why not they made them they made the Spartan they made the Spartan threes in like a week why not use them like that i did make them in a week that's true but he was yeah i mean it's it's it's where the emphasize the nature of the wave tactics guys what happens is they get the Spartan threes to go towards the big covenant fleet and as soon as they like get there they blow them up and then she's like all right deploy wave two it's like oh okay they literally didn't even get on to any ships all right and then she's just like yeah wave two it's literally like a no man's land yeah all right wave two off you go it's insane which is weird because like we talk about this i i think we talked about this on an efap or something but there is an element that a lot of um like military fiction is very weird with and odd with but you can sort of look at the real world and you can see these very clear patterns throughout history of investing time and effort and equipment and like effort into the well-being of your soldiers just gets you better results it's should be clarified for the chatters that i'm talking about how the Spartan threes are made in a week in the show yes you wouldn't throw them away in the lore but in the show it's literally the people that escaped reach are turned into Spartan threes which was like days ago Ruiz is uh is just like a Spartan three now and i'm thinking like yeah so basically the logic of Spartan fours applied to the Spartan threes yeah we don't even see like much of any of like the experience you must have gone through to become one she just is one you're like okay she just is one she's good at it i did about a week of training because it is about a week between the fall of reach and when we get to onyx it's about a week if that yeah might even be less than that and it's like and remember these are like weird simulations that don't even comport with reality that well uh like a plasma it's not even physical training it's the vr it's like it's like getting all your soldiers to play call of duty to like train them so okay you're ready to actually fight a war now guys but they did that in the three for three halo where they said all the Spartan fours were training in vr simulations and that was the multiplayer i think but it's just like that it is just more of like man that feels like a bit of a parallel to i damn i think it might have been did you once say patrician that you thought that it might be that three four three hates od sts yes i i've i've thought that for a long time i think that three four three is somewhat envious of the game od st being more popular than most of theirs well yeah we're supposed to be the cool ones yeah not in a single orbital drop shock trooper in our both seasons of the show that we have never seen an od st and like i said the Spartan threes are basically they're worse od sts they don't have any augmentations they have regular armor that doesn't have shielding because it has to be light enough for them to wear it and they have less training than an od st because od sts is special forces um the Spartan threes are like just worse od sts they just play video games and then get thrown at ships pretty much yeah like it's which doesn't again like i don't we we could talk about it like and we talked about our ages in the last uh when we did season one but like there's there's so many easy ideas for a show of just you can have a show that's just about a squad of orbital drop shock troopers and then like master chief occasionally comes in and out of their story or it could be that od sts are like a pov character uh you have like a pov od st character in a squad as like a subplot and it's just like yeah that's some variety it'll be fun nobody will be unhappy everybody will be happy who's watching the show to see od sts but they just like forgo all of these opportunities that are just basically really easy to to get i think they're out of touch they overestimate how much players like Spartans and underestimate how much players like od sts because i feel like Spartans are too complicated a concept for people to mentally insert into whereas od sts are like yeah if i was in the setting i could be an od st you can't necessarily be a Spartan yeah well those are the things about od st and the bands are between the squad it's like ah yeah it's like a it's a group of friends you know in the middle of a war like working together against all odds yeah there's this camaraderie that comes with you know the marines and the od sts and um and it just it doesn't exist in the show it's just not present at all it is this weird reliance on no no no Spartans are the cool ones guys see we made even more of them look someone was even more someone in chat mentioned uh the od st trailer that they did the live action one we don't even need to begin to talk about how remember reach or the we are od st like trailers that are a minute long are more impactful and riveting and interesting than 17 episodes of television all right we don't need to we don't need to delve into that okay it's it's very self-evident but also kind of fascinating in that oh yeah the believe stuff from halo three that there was a lot of halos made a lot of really good commercials and ads and promotional material um it's just your commercial is a better than the television show they have better stories like down to the fact that the od st captain would bring a flag with him an od st flag and stuff it under his armor because that was the best way that he could you know honor the dead while in the middle of a war zone it's like that's that's like more subtle and more interesting character writing and basically anything we've seen in these two seasons there'd be there's a whole series of commercials for halo three that was set up to be years and years after that they'd be talking to like middle and old aged men um and it was set up to be that they were marines fighting in the events of what would be halo three and these like interviews and they would be talking about like the master chief not explicitly but you know they were talking about master chief and that would just be the commercial it was just like an interviewing an old marine you know tell us about what happened and that would be the commercial for the events of what halo three would be and it was just good it was subtle it was you know it was just it was just good and this is just very insistent that no this halo story is the good one spartans are very cool master john halo man he is amazing see obsession with turning them into superheroes and and also creating their own cringe because no does anybody like the spartan fours is anybody a fan of them and how and like spartan ops and their personalities i've seen people say they like them but i generally don't believe them one of the most cathartic moments of halo infinite is when you find dead spartan fours or like they kill them offscreen it's a grimly dark sort of thing of like i put a smile on my face well the spartan fours were just tacitly a mistake that was like one of the first mistakes three for three made with the setting was they wanted a new wave of spartans you know i always say as well something that i think is a big mistake that i almost feel like is kind of glossed over do you remember in the spartan ops cut scene how like there's a covenant like corvette carrier like that's that's fighting in space and then infinity comes out of slip space and just flies through it and blows it up i feel like that's like really indicative of like a big problem that started to happen it's like that's kind of crap though isn't it that the way that it started was that the covenant were so oppressive as an enemy force that um they were very very scary and difficult to beat to like well four years later the humanity's buildership so big that it can just plow through a covenant carrier like it's nothing i'm not just kind of ruin the stakes a bit like for yeah which meant that they had to they had to implement new like extremely esoteric threats like the didact in order to try to keep the same like threat level water and eternal in halo god oh yeah i want to fight him seven times that's real fun dude halo five existed the one of the tlj's before tlj chat all right it's the one i haven't played actually i never finished it because it was so boring i don't i don't like the prometheans as an enemy no the prometheans were awful never played it yeah the prometheans were a a bad idea the fact that like i like uh we don't need to be look right i mean honestly the the whole thing of it is there didn't need to be a new halo trilogy just like there really didn't need to be a halo tv show it's something that people wanted just almost a new sequel trilogy yeah that didn't need to be uh terminated dark fate just like they didn't need to be star trek discovery or just like they didn't need to be these stories were concluded and in the process of unconcluding a story you're just gonna fuck things up oh yeah it is we know now it is rare that you have success because i would actually stand by saying the you know alien doesn't need a sequel but then they made aliens just like oh cool damn arguably depends on who you ask like shit yeah and and but so that we have yeah terminator is another actually released solid examples there's a lot of terminator fans would say terminator one is one and done it's it's golden you don't need to touch anything else just like yeah but i like terminator two oh okay i mean if we're gonna use the star wars example you know one could argue star wars could have worked with one movie yeah um predator even though i just like a lot of the predators equals but at the same time you know i have a fondness for predator two to some extent i it's just it's just interesting to think because that's just all a different era it's all those examples are so far gone so far away i suppose what's funny is we were talking about the um the the nature of like the faithfulness because arcane is like very famously just you you would never know what you're in for by being like i'll play the game version of arcane like that's uh not even really lol at all then you have someone like the last of his tv show that's like it takes it stays on the rails but goes off every once in a while uh and they say it's like parallel rails because uh joel isn't quite joel ali isn't quite ali but that like it's close enough and there's a lot of big payoffs that they just take one for one and adapted pretty like close we've got all these examples of like different levels of faithfulness and different executions and different expectations but uh halo is funnily enough one that i think is just such a startlingly fucking abysmal attempt in almost every way you could imagine we've talked about it before and i'd want to reiterate it because i it feels like um there are some very distinct eras of video game adaptations the one that we were in for i guess like 20 or so years was um they were very embarrassed to even be like video game adaptations they didn't recognize how much people value video games they didn't recognize how popular they were and so you saw a lot of adaptations that were in name only but was so different that they often be like completely unrecognizable unrecognizable to the point that they barely even had any of the iconography or the music or anything and like what we've seen especially over the last few years and it feels like sonic the hedgehog kind of marks the beginning of this era funnily enough that you begin with that film being very obviously of the old era of they were they didn't even think it would be worthwhile to make sonic look like sonic and then they realize oh that's a bad idea it's a good idea to make him look like sonic and then you see that transition now obviously means that that film still kind of is in both worlds i feel like the new mortal combat was kind of in a similar place as well of sort of being in both worlds of like where the characters kind of look like the characters but there are still changes like the fact that you have that insert character because they felt that they couldn't have a be like on the cage or anything but now we're firmly in the era of at the very least they're going to look like the thing that you recognize they're probably going to sound like the thing that you recognize and fingers crossed you're actually going to start to capture the spirit of the games because they're no longer embarrassed about doing video game adaptations not only are they not embarrassed they finally realize there was so much money to be made in doing it and you lose nothing by trying to at the very least get the surface level things right and so then you can see it reflected in i've only seen the first episode of fallout didn't really like it but like it certainly looks like fallout in a in a lot of ways obviously like the mario movie definitely trying to capture the art style like sonic that chock too felt like it was moving more in that direction on the note of mortal combat specifically right like capturing the spirit i would argue is the number one thing that all fans actually want it's just that we i think it's and this is reasonable we'd all slightly disagree on what capturing the spirit of a particular ip even is the nature with the model combat like having that main character was just like what the fuck you doing like this is model combat if anything we would have been happy if kano were the main character instead of that guy exactly even though it doesn't make sense from like a fans point of view but the fact that we've got karl urb and johnny cage is going to be in the next one like oh god that could work so well it could also fail but that could work so well exactly um and it's like they're starting to realize that and then you see a whole bunch of permutations of uh what it means to be faithful because even though we're saying like arcane uh you know if you looked at league of legends it would be it'd be like wow okay that seems different but it's like yeah but they're still they've got the characters they've got things that they carried over like references and nods and pulling from the world building and clearly coming from a place of respect and what you see with halo very much feels like the end of the last era slightly bleeding into the new one yeah like i haven't got the message yet pretty much like you've got the suits of armor you've got like assault rifles and battle rifles and you've got grunts and elites and stuff like that you've barely gotten the surface level thing in in certain scenes to make it look like halo but you are you don't give a fuck you don't respect it you don't value it at all it's a vehicle for you to tell your own story because you're embarrassed that it's a video game yeah it's the caring without caring in that there are some people you could tell some people care but they seem to be in the minority um i think uh probably the great microcosm of all of this is that the show knows that we should have battle rifles we need to have battle rifles that look like battle rifles with the scopes and the you know the carry handle sort of design they have going they know to have the battle rifles to have them prominently they're automatic rifles in the show though they're not reversed so it's one of those like you knew to do everything except like the most iconic thing about them or you just passed it off to the person like all the prop guys really gave a shit but then when they passed it off to the director and the vfx people and everything they didn't it didn't get translated into it being a a burst fire weapon i gotta say if you watched the behind the scenes stuff talking about making the show it's a little grim because the prop guys and and like there are a lot of people on the crew who but there was a clip where a guy was talking about he he put more thought into explaining why sorenson kessler's like master chief helmet the way that he created it then was put into the writing of the show he's like yeah so this is like a this is based on a pilot's helmet in the show uh and they're orange so we needed to have like an orange hue coming through even though it was painted green it's like dude like look at all this effort that you're putting into like creating all of these props and making all the guns and stuff that look great and it's how did you love this man on set get him out of here how did you get in here it's like there's a lot of work that clearly goes into it all but like if the script failed you there's that's it like that's that's it you know you can appreciate all of the work that goes into the props and the sets and the effort even though a lot of visual effects are really wonky but obviously a lot of time got put into it but it's like yeah your core is soulless there is and and a really good if they had if we had this level of writing stories and characters but it was in a show that had a lot that was just dripping with good references from the games we had a lot of variety in terms of the way that the aliens looked the weapons that they used we had accurate sound effects to the games if it was like dressed to the nines and all of that stuff and then on top of that just the fight scenes were well choreographed and shot really well and shot interesting and the first person view on the uh i like the helmet was really well done it would buy so much goodwill to the show even if the show was written as shittily as it is but they couldn't even get the you know like the aesthetic and the flavor stuff almost like they just refuse to do it is what it is it's a refusal to do it because they could have just done it all the games are right there it's all for the taking you have the rights to it you just chose not to use it it was a choice a clear example of refusing to even use it the soundtrack i cannot believe i can't believe that the music in this show is what it is i can't believe that forgettable i couldn't i couldn't tell you oh yeah there was music i can barely remember the title theme and i heard it too many times it's uh it's crazy to me that you have you know i gush over it all the time i'm gonna do it again i love uh the sound tracks that marty o'donnell composed for halo they're awesome they're like some of my favorite tracks in general not just for video games but in general i love it i love the tone that's conveyed i love the disparate nature of the music yet how it somehow manages to have a level of consistency and a unified vision i love the cheer tracks i love the epic tracks the ambient tracks i love the motifs that get carried throughout the games halo 3 being like sort of a best of compilation of all of the songs the fact that odst manages to create a very distinctive feel for itself with all of its jazz saxophone like lots of emphasis on piano halo reach creating an own its own identity for itself its own kind of like iconic uh choir and monks even though it's a different thing and it's awesome and it's like you could have just you could have just taken the tracks i just plopped them in you know the timeline like while they were editing it together and it would have been fine but it's almost like there was this refusal to not even like it has to be the most generic uh sci-fi tv show music imaginable there is not there's not a single memorable track across all two seasons yeah there literally isn't i can't remember any of the halo of like whenever they occasionally feel like using a halo song which is a fucking rare that they even like use a halo song i think maybe i think there may be four or five instances of them actually using like halo music and it's always a terrible yeah um yeah very little resemblance to the the game scores that's for sure and that includes season one and this the music for season one was done by Sean Calary who is famous for his work scoring 24 which i'm a i'm a i'm a huge fan of his work i think i thought he did an excellent job with 24 but i have to admit that his style doesn't really fit halo and there's there's certainly no kind of memorable melodies that were built by Sean Calary or this new uh crew that's working on season two like the bare mccleary did the theme and then he had his production team do the sort of generic score episode to episode um well so yeah and just none of it is resembled to games you see it in the efap tv when it eventually comes out when we were watching like episode one has um it has like so what you'll notice is season one and two actually have a different intro music um the intro music in season one is basically unrecognizable as being inspired by halo aside from essentially like the most basic uh like piece of melody and then it does you gotta remember they don't even have the proper like monks they don't have the same choir it's like that halo four choir where it's like a different it's just a totally different sound it's different yeah with its own little theme where they're like that's like their theme for the show and it sucks uh or rather it doesn't suck it's just lame that would be the better way to put it season two they actually like do the halo two uh rendition of the halo theme where they've got like the higher uh vocals coming in midway but the problem is that because it's rushed and condensed it doesn't sound as good you've condensed something that lasts maybe like 40 seconds into 15 20 seconds and it messes with the composition and then it just goes back into being more generic like halo music um or like a generic um a generic uh rendition of the halo music it really it bugs me so much because halo's got so many cool tracks and it's like it's easy yeah it's so easy like and it would be so epic you know like if you used any of that could you and and and i just don't see how do you you would earn it maybe have pissed people off but if you just use the epilogue music from a halo reach like after van it got killed that people would probably like that a lot uh they'd probably be like that's a cool callback it's a great song and it's just like that's easy you could just plop it in there and people would like it when you think they'd have a custom track for the final fight with uh chief and after you think they would yeah and you think it would play into the scene huge before the fight starts like the music would be booming just before we get into it i can imagine just using like unyielding from halo two like just use that as like the fight music people would probably think that was cool as shit but instead they decided not to do that it's just like i i just don't get it it's easy it's easy and it requires like less work i don't get it it's it's whereas i i definitely got the impression in season one i will say i feel like in season two i even got less of an impression of the music oddly enough uh season one had like some very mass effect kind of like knockoff mass effect sounding music i noticed that a little bit more in season two as well kind of like um more synthy uh like more of like the kind of synth that you would hear in like uncharted worlds um right but not as good because uncharted it's interesting that you bring up that song specifically because i think i mentioned it to you and you called it before i even was able to say that specifically but we were playing hell divers too and the mission select music on hell divers too i was like fringy what music does this remind you of and you're like oh yeah uncharted worlds is like yeah this is clear i think that this was like inspired by it in a way that's distinctly different but still kind of harkens back to it and so that's sort of like the inverse of taking something and using it as inspiration whereas there is well let's put it this way rings of power soundtrack is more like memorable than it is more memorable than rings of power is barely memorable i remember a couple of tracks from rings of power a couple as a fun fact there's a song in odsd soundtrack that isn't in the album version that also sounds like uncharted worlds um you hear it in the fire fight i would if i heard it i would know what you mean if i if i heard it um if you know what it is put a link in here because i bet if i heard it i would know what you mean i don't know if it's on youtube but i'll try to find it okay i got you it's uh there's so many good tracks and and it's that it's not a matter of yeah but that wouldn't fit it's like dude that it's like they cover basically anything that you could want there's a meant well like covered in dance you know that's like a funky track we're friends like that kind of thing yeah what you said there by saying the halo music wouldn't fit our halo show already you're like well wait wait what isn't that already like isn't that the the big yellow potentially red flag that goes yellow flag like what what do you mean the the the incredible memorable arguably best soundtrack of a video game series ever in history so far it's not fitting the you know the the show adaptation of it how could how could that be that's an interesting thing to think about for as much as it would be easy to incorporate a lot of the music in there the reality is that it wouldn't be achieving the the purpose of what that music did and what music is supposed to achieve which is it accentuates the moment as it is and makes that moment memorable and to a place where the music can be intertwined with that memory rather than you hear it and you think of the thing that you like uh like oh yeah that reminds me of that that that moment in halo that i really liked like if it was like this is the hour for instance and i played it here i i just immediately be thinking about the actual scene in like halo three where all of the ships are flying in uh like to the uh to the excavation side on earth like the portal to the ark i'd be thinking of that or if they had wake me when you need me whatever the context would be for that i'd just be thinking about the ending of halo three um or like if i was thinking about um uh damn it i can't believe that it's escaping me right now oh undercover of night like it's uh you know i'd just be thinking of uh i'd just be thinking of the level it's just like yep that's unfortunate but you isn't that what you want though in an adaptation i guess what i'm getting at is that um in a good adaptation you would be able to be happy that it exists as a great track that reminds you of the thing that you love but also that it could be now attached to a new memory rather than you see it and then you're like oh shit that just makes me think of this other thing that i like but at the same time i don't see that you lose anything by just having these tracks in the show anywhere rather than convert i would mention um eric nylen's halo novels uh having played the games the games are similar to the visual storytelling that he does in his writing and so having played the games you get kind of a reference to know what he's talking about and then you can kind of build on that your understanding of it and i think that's an example of an adaptation where referencing the thing that it's adapting builds positive associations and has yeah i think absolutely by playing the games and then reading the books was it it was like yes this is the kind of book that it's what we it's a book series that we reference a decent amount not just for you know good you know good books to read that are science fiction but like video game yeah kind of action books they're just it's good young adult military science fiction it's not something that i think really stands up to like oh yeah i'm in my 30s and i'm gonna read this but i do think that like if you want to get young people into it and they were into halo then those would be good books to get them into yeah i think if you're a legit fan of halo the books do the books are good you know they do them justice in a way um they offer a different but very clearly halo experience obviously the games don't rely on the books and the books really don't rely on the games either that's true you could read they work together but they are standalone it's different to what happened other 343 where like reading the books became essential required uh homework to understand uh like if you if you jumped into halo five without reading like halo escalation or any of these books it's like yeah good luck like that's weird too because the first five halos they did not have complicated stories they were not like you don't have to you don't have to bring up the cork board with the lines and the yarn and the thing it's just no it's just they're well executed fairly simple ideas that are just they're just done well i think uh i think the the strength of the games was it's it's you think of it like an iceberg right of on its face it presents a really entertaining straightforward fun story but that there's a lot that you can extract from just the world building the environment design the music uh a desire to look into things further terminals and things like that that there was just like it was clear that there was a lot under the surface that was supporting this and you can kind of go in whatever direction you wanted in terms of how much that meant to you or how much that mattered uh and and that's like a good way to make something that's really accessible but also has like a lot to uh delve into for people who are really interested rather than being in a place where you have to be immersed in it so much to the detriment or the exclusion of other stories other media it's the gameplay of halo is more than just uh it's one of the reasons why it lingers so much and people's consciousness is that yeah like there's been plenty of really fun shooters over the years they're they're very very many fun shooters but it's the shooting element that helps to you know it it's got the characters you know them being distinct it's got the world and the designs of everything it's all it all goes together and those other elements that aren't necessarily the aren't necessarily the gameplay those are the those are the reasons why we're talking about it you know 20 years after the fact well not so sad fate for halo is that it seems to just be fading away slowly stripped away of everything very stylish i think i think it's just a victim of the uh streaming gold rush where every media company was trying to set up a streaming service and get as many ip's as they could on their exclusive service and so they just rubber stamped a halo show and then this is what this is the output product i don't think paramount particularly cared very much about the quality of what they were making or what they're what they were having made it's it's interesting that you say that because uh this show went through development hell it was announced in 2013 by steven spielberg at the xbox one reveal is this that's where the show is tied to this project yes steven spielberg is uh amblin entertainment production yeah that's right if steven spielberg is attached to the show in some capacity so it actually took them over and it was meant to be on showtime uh before it uh ended up shifting to paramount plus i think that was i so i thought the steven spielberg thing had just like died in production hell and this was something different that's this this is it this is the this is the product of that how do you work on something like this for a decade and come out with this i i do i will say i kind of find it funny that the the kind of like the endpoint of the destruct even though you know it's like you said it's kind of fading away but what feels like kind of a culmination of the destruction of halo began at the event that destroyed xboxes are like reputation in a way that they still haven't recovered from i feel this is like that's something poetic there it's so yeah it's not just awful entries that destroy everything it's also mediocre shit the you know some people think is fine or good enough like uh any franchise that used to be on top i was talking about this with um alien predator terminator Jurassic park all of these franchises that we're starting to enter an era it seems with romulus uh frozen empire even fucking whatever happens a drastic as an ip next and probably with the next terminator they'll do the safest thing possible kind of okayish but kind of badly and that that's its fate it's going to become a consumable like vending machine franchise that every once in a while just pop it out and go yeah and then it's like crazy how long this is like you're like simpsons it's just like a round it's like you understand what this used to be at one point does anyone you know we're the old people in the fucking rocking chairs like back in my day it was actually good and it's like it is good it's like you know it used to be fucking great an old man is talking i know that reference well that's the thing right like in the universe where we had the turnip tree with the turnip juice for our lemonade it's it's it's an alternative thing to the like tlj's that's a different sector it's like these other things where you're just like oh i guess that came out and now it's had this effect on because you know like infinite wasn't um wasn't like the tlj of halo or anything was it it was just it just sort of disappeared well as much as i say that uh halo five is the tlj of halo it's like well on a campaign front sure but like you know multiplayer was fun and it's kind of the interesting thing with like halo is it's almost like it takes a few months for it to sort of settle into the conclusions about it and every time it's not being like a complete absolute like 100 through and through disaster it's always just been there's been a lot that's like to be said that's wrong with it um and it's almost like uh it because it takes so long to catch up it's like 343 can never learn the right lesson just in time uh halo four they got a lot of smoke blown up they were asked by the gaming press for halo four despite the fact that uh multiplayer died very quickly uh mcc was pretty miserable mcc obviously massive disaster that was just a clear failure but even then it's like a failure tins with yeah but these are games that you like uh halo five uh you know it had like it's it's certain campaigns sucked multiplayer was really fun but it was a very different kind of experience than what most people would have wanted from halo and obviously infinite's problems are pretty well known like mostly yeah it was like mostly solid base gameplay but everything surrounding it was bad so and then it did not arrive complete you gotta stop fucking doing that you can't do that anymore it's just if you hopefully less than we're learned hopefully yeah hopefully but uh but yeah now it leaves halo like with this show it's like there there is a level to which the destruction is complete but at the same time the series is gonna continue as for whether this show continues as the question mark for sure i hope not i hope it just ends and dies here um i hope that they i mean ideally what they do is another game comes out they actually like release it as a finished fucking product they don't have 20 white armor skins and bullshit like that hopefully like hopefully it'll be like the hell divers teaches everyone a lesson well it's funny you brought that up because i was gonna bring up hell divers the halo fans were very much trying to make hell divers kind of about them and that was that was kind of just like the final blow for me where it's like i don't think i could ever call myself a halo fan again like yeah i think it's just it's hell divers time now like halo died it halo needs to it needs to have the lat it needs to have a hurrah or it will be done halo there is still clearly there is interest in halo i don't think there's a team that can bring it back though is the problem that's the that's the thing like what do you do who do you and i honestly i honestly don't even know if there's actually that much interest in it in in bringing it back well i think that microsoft is uh microsoft is very attached to halo they've said frequently that they essentially believe that halo is like really important in terms of maintaining xbox but maybe that's the delusion maybe xbox needs to get to a place where they can refresh and have new things that people get excited about rather than clinging to the idea that like halo forza and gears is where they're gonna find salvation as well start start they were they tried to buy starfield as their new like flagship flagship ip that was gonna carry them and that fell through too it's almost like there's a recurring party in the story of microsoft uh game studio projects that is causing these issues well i guess now they're probably looking to like kola judy is going to be really useful for them um but you know who fucking knows what halo is going to look like there's also a concern of where you go narratively from here in the games because i mean you did we did like the one halo ring and then there was an array of halo rings and it's like uh what now because it felt like with halo 4 it was like running dry on id probably just more reached style narratives covering various battles throughout the war universe yeah yeah but unfortunately we got this was there anything else anybody wanted to uh like throw say about uh the show um so i feel like the show missed the point that master chief was separate from humanity but still inexorably linked to humanity through this armor because uh it used to be that the armor had to be put on by other people the spartans couldn't put on their own armor and uh i think removing that elements just kind of further increases the divide between john halo and regular humans which is weird when they think that the show is meant to be about exploring his humanity yet they've made it so that he's actually pretty cosmically divorced from humanity yeah he's insane literally just if he just steals his armor and keeps it on he would be unkillable so i don't see why he ever takes it off we were talking about uh thematic earlier about like the the identity of a soldier and uh i think there's one of the issues with the show is the writers and the producers are sort of conflating these two ideas of dichotomy where you have like because there is the the the duality of a soldier's mind uh and like all the best war movies explore that it's like full metal jacket you have the guy with the helmet the peace symbol on one side born to kill run on the other uh i think the halo um writers are confusing that dichotomy with the idea of uh john as a person and chief as a separate person but there's no duality there they are one in the same yeah and uh they they're they're mixing those two up i think and so that's why they think that you can't explore chief's humanity without taking the helmet off but the games were already doing that they were exploring that character's humanity without with while keeping the helmet on well um i'll leave it to you guys to wrap that up i've got a call i need to head on out uh so we're sort of reaching the terminus of this discussion but um for me i hated the show i hope there's not a season three i don't think this show will have any lasting impact other than being just another on the big pile of bad examples of what not to do i don't think it will garner any passionate fanbase it will just disappear into the mist of history and people will occasionally go oh yeah that's right there were those seasons of that terrible tv show huh yeah that'll that'll be its legacy that's about it yep all right i gotta head out uh thanks everyone for showing up and talking about halo season two fringy was uh sort of the tip of the spear in this discussion poor lad had to watch a lot of halo show content for this so i'm glad we were able to give it the the best most thorough discussion probably on the internet so there you go there we go all right i will catch y'all later i will see you to live later man bye bye later uh i still want to yeah like if anybody still had uh anything that was sort of on their mind about the show if they wanted to chat about it more than happy to do that it was bad the that thing about confusing dichotomies was my thing and i think yeah the one of the one of the core problems with the show i agree uh it's it's i think um i think what i've noticed about the attitude that both the writers of this show and 343 seem to have is that um like halo as presented in the bungee games that don't believe like the conflict there is interesting enough to carry uh the series like it's not interesting enough to be absorbed in this world with the unsc and the covenant and the flood and the forerunners in the backdrop uh that the human covenant war or the reveal of the flood and having to deal with that and then learning about the monitors or like grave mind or anything like that that having uh master chief be the vehicle for the player and potentially in an adaptation or further games uh the viewer to um like participate and interact with this world that that's not enough to carry it that you need to you need to create like the ah well he's got the inner turmoil that he's grappling with the is he even a human and what does it mean to be a soldier and questioning orders and questioning authority and stuff like that that they they feel like they have to do it because i don't think that master chief is interesting enough on his own or that they don't believe that you can have a static character be the lead of a story or that you can't focus in on the external conflict uh as like driving uh potentially other characters to be more dynamic characters like the arbiter or something that you had to create the inner conflict and turmoil and john halo otherwise it wouldn't be worthwhile i definitely got that sense and it's um i think i think it's misguided i think it's um i think it's the same kind of misguided that makes people not realize you can have static characters who are still very compelling and interesting um it in in response to that desire they created somebody who is so unpredictable so on him so like unsure of himself that he's pretty incomprehensible uh which is worse than creating somebody like master chief who i used to think was impossible to misunderstand but apparently that has happened uh with uh some people that they actually think he is a robot and not that he has a personality or that he cares about people so right do you are you guys terribly familiar with what's been going on with star trek in the modern day not hugely i've got like a tangential set of knowledge thanks to a real bbc but no yes no yes no is that like Picard and discovery are those two active ones okay yeah um there was a plot line back in the day in deep space nine about an organization called section 31 it was a sort of black ops organization that kind of went against the morals of the federation but made sense that would exist uh they they were extremely clandestined in their operations and trying to further the interest of humanity even though uh humanity was supposed to be above having that kind of uh intelligence service and uh it feels it's only like three or four episodes it's mostly just a side plot for dr basher to kind of explore some of his character and it feels like the writers of the new stuff when they were watching the old stuff really latched onto that idea and wanted to like make their entire show about this section 31 premise and it feels like the same thing with the halo show it feels like they went through the halo media and found this thing that they wanted to hone in on and this dumb edgy topic of like uh the child their child soldiers and what what do they feel about that instead of focusing on what is actually the core theme of what they're adapting in star trek's case it's about humanity overcoming petty differences between people and kind of working together for a better future in halo's case it's about a guy in green armor that goes around shooting aliens i mean halo's about more than that but that's kind of my point is that it seems to be a recurring problem on paramount that they take away the wrong message from what they're adapting and end up making something darker and edgier for no reason um i i wonder if i'd say that that's like a paramount problem or if that's just like a problem that's being pretty persistent in a lot of uh a lot of these like kind of adaptations lately of just like kind of misunderstanding what it is that people like but then it doesn't help when like john halo doing the thing where the elite charges at him and then he ducks and shoots him with a shotgun that like that made people happy doesn't help uh in conveying like what people actually or maybe it doesn't help in terms of it sends mixed messages compared to what i like about halo which isn't just john like master chief being not afraid of anything and being super cool like that's one thing but there's like a lot of things i really like about it that are not captured in the show at all beyond like everything that we really talked about i really i really hate um what they've done to like the forerunners as an element i kind of like adore the idea of the forerunners as an element in halo like that you can go to this place that's like this natural like natural beauty meets like far flung science fiction futuristic tech that hides like a a deep person like a hidden secret in a dark backstory um like that's super cool there's a lot of mystery in all like an image that stands out to me as a it's when uh it's when guilty spark takes a master chief back to the control room and he's walking towards a control panel with like a big sweeping shot of the interior and it's like dude this is awesome and like i feel like i get none of this in this show of just like being struck by the pure aura and majesty of like this universe and and the forerunners it's it's like they're the camera zoomed in two times and you really want them to just zoom it the fuck out so you can see what's going on yeah exactly but that even like somehow transcends into the writing where you just wish that they would stop and zoom out so you could see the bigger picture exactly i mean you can i think um i i definitely come away with the perspective that john halo is astoundingly selfish and i think one of the big reasons why it's just there is too little attention in his dialogue and his conversations with people and really a lot of people's conversations with everybody about the human covenant war it's just that will often fact like episode five which is right after he wakes up after the fall of reach he has a conversation with halsey about what she did to him before he's like wait what happened to reach and it's like dude that doesn't like you can protest like we got to go back and help it's like yeah but that feels hollow when you just spent the last like five minutes and the first five minutes of you being awake talking about yourself uh but you know what happened it's like you said they've zoomed in too much they're like so zoomed in on this handful of characters that uh they've brought a conflict is lost to the background it's like a blur that occasionally comes into focus when they zoom out just a little bit well that's me that's me satisfied yep this show was uh pretty bad pretty bad how many thoughts there we are on the show uh it was uh a waste of time yes it was a waste of a waste of it's a waste of uh the people who's made it time it was a waste of our time it's a waste of your time for watching this yes just it is grim i hate it um the introduction of the flood was the only mildly interesting thing for me in this season but and i actually would prefer if they just postponed it to season three and have the flood be revealed within halo somewhere and like yeah that just feels like more semantically appropriate as a pandora's box story now it just feels like there's nothing special in the belly of halo that it's like why are we even i don't even care about exploring halo it's like we already know the floods out there it's wreaking havoc on onyx or whatever like why are we even doing the halo thing anymore you know like well you have to find out what a great quote why are we even doing the halo who's betting that uh season three will be a thing and who's betting it won't i am leading so what the fact that we haven't heard anything yet uh after at this point i think three weeks since it ended makes me wonder i'll throw out a uh yes but reduced budget like uh final chance my answer would actually be i think that the most likely thing is season three but it's the end you gotta wrap it up this is it we'll let you finish it but that we're done yeah i'm going with absolutely that there will absolutely be a third yeah i mean they they get they get the views from these things brand name on a streaming service that's that's the great our only salvation is a paramount plus just dies it seems 50 50 to me either they just decide to cut it off or it's like okay one more wrap it up hopefully we can cash in on the fact that everybody knows this is the last season so they're gonna tune in to find out what happens i have a fully a favorite stuff in it it is not unlikely it is not unlikely that season three uh that season two will be the end that they'll cancel it i would say it's not what i would lean towards being the most likely but it's certainly not so unlikely that it's like a small percentage chance i think the fact that it has to be renewed instantly should say something i'm going to announce to keith david will be joining the voice cast for the season uh like oh no i just don't want to i don't want to see i don't want to see noble team i don't want to see real obd I don't want to see johnson i want him to be safe and cozy tucked away in their beds at night having a nice drinking cocoa yeah exactly just i don't know time i don't marshmallow novel with his little lamp on as he's sitting in his bed like i love this slippers on i have a heart to care it doesn't ruin the original thing for me if they bastardize it in the show because so I kind of want them to do like a just meme compilation how much more shit can can we reference you know how many more references can we cram into season three before we get canceled get really abstract little crazy shit yeah just like really deep lore cuts yeah I want it to end personally I don't want to anymore I can't take it hurt my soul wounds me to my core but I imagine the end of season three would be basically the end of the first game where halo blows up and chief says we're just getting started going by the pace going by the pacing of this show it would probably end in like the middle of halo three or something might actually end with them how am i they might only spend like two episodes on halo before they're already back to earth and then go into the art well I was thinking about mentioning that earlier like they don't have anything to do at halo so they might as well just go straight to the invasion of earth right yeah like I seriously it's weird that they simultaneously take a long time to get to halo yet at the same time you think about the fact that they did full of reach the flood and the spartan threes all in one season along with their own expand subplots like that's a tremendous amount to jam in to our eight episodes of television yeah so yeah I could I could see that happen I was about to say but we don't have to think about that anymore but that's not true I still got to think about it I still I'm still working on a good old you know how soon we can see some of those episodes well I think mues it was uh fairly soon right it was uh the release of the episodes we got three musketeers it'll be Wednesday then we'll have a week off on Wednesdays and then it'll start up to be pretty consistent only to be interrupted by another war movie arc which will be the following month this eight episodes yes eight tv episodes every not every oh wednesday they'll be out every wednesday um yeah but it will be consistent which is a good enjoy our suffering in real time highly edited fun on the bun yep jam packed with references uh it's uh yeah lots of fun not for us but fun for you yeah well yeah that does it for uh hallow season two I hate it yeah if that wraps up we don't recommend it I just want to make that clear just in case anyone was wondering it's not fun it's not funny bad it's not fun no no it's really boring it's for someone else why didn't you do an episode by episode breakdown it's like that would have been fucking painful going through the amount of wasting time in this the amount of just nothing happening I think it better suits for a bouncy conversation this sort of thing it's not like a marvel movie where you get reliable cringe every five seconds it's just not like it's not a madame web what a shame um in any case before we end up going patrician tv where can people find you and what are you up to uh they can find me on youtube and I'm up to the same thing I was up to last time which is working on this wow video bleed so you're gonna be shit in a little while huh uh not really because I'm talking about the vanilla era so there's a bit more bit more of a positive video from me although I do make fun of the 20 years of bad decisions that we're coming up on here this year yeah well you know it's still around right it's still hobbling along get all get all wow do you uh talk it all about I remember seeing it on twitter asman gold had a recommendation how to save wow do you uh see what he said um I don't really talk about retail so I don't really have a thing about that I was going to look into some asman gold stuff but more so to do with the classic era than what's retail I if I doubt he came up with it it's probably somebody else somebody else's idea that he's kind of just riffing on and working out of all righty then john cjg what are you up to uh john graham on youtube if i'm working on a new machinima series that's uh i'm gonna get the first episode of that out pretty soon so that's what i'm working on it's not it sounds awesome new is in brand new fresh new everything well it's a reboot of a show hard justice that I did back in the early to for mid-2000s that uh is that the one where the guy was that I like sorry the guy was in his apartment thinking about killing him so no that was a different one that one's super cringe that's that's not really hard hard justice always like the premise and characters and I thought you know I can do that better and now I'm just basically doing it again but better this time trying to we'll see all right um yeah what are you what thing you hating right now other than the American society of magical necromancy I'm still angry at uh Netflix's um uh avatar are you doing like a big thing for that very way too big thing of it I probably need to trim down quite a bit if I ever want to actually get it out but yeah that's as long as you get it out before season two arrives and then season three arrives and what are they doing in a movie a movie yeah animated movie they're doing a movie as well they're doing a sequel series at lafayette and good lots of posts recently about how good core is I've been seeing yeah you gotta cover you gotta cover the fortnite stuff too oh yeah I'll be playing I'll actually be playing that eventually sometime oh you're playing fortnite the sacrifices you make for your audience yes I know truly I'm a martyr well very exciting good stuff uh links to everyone's channels in the description myself and fringy just getting everything ready for you guys more stuff coming on the uh the old mula channel including but not limited to of course the our trek through halo who you're gonna get all of that very soon well movie r continues next week will be rebel moon 2 oh legendary film everything that's posted about it is cringe rebel moon is a film that's reliable for entertainment I would say I'm I'm not I'm not gonna lie I'm kind of looking forward to whatever he's gonna do because it's gonna be so stupid like this is the one where everything happens guys we did all the character stuff yeah it's pretty funny it's a thing about in it the scar givers at the second yeah right now this one's got loads of like I'm excited to hear that it's like funny bad I'm a little bit upset that you said okay it's like dude lightsaber come on we need some more funny bad stuff these days it's all just boring bad I just this leak make me cry laughing so if this does the same thing I'm on board well so that's interesting because army the dad made me want to die like that that that one was too much but yeah this this uh it can happen it's funny it rebel moon has an element of funny in that it like what it is and also the meta is making it really funny that this is the one that's kind of changed the perception like I'm like you know maybe Zach Snyder yeah that's great of a filmmaker at all you nailed it when we whenever fucking 10 million times we talked about this but like the there's no DC to hide behind this time there's no DC skirt that he can hide under he's he's it's been too long he has to actually stand on his own army the dead slipped by he was super fucking lucky that if that released today could you imagine my god he'd be slaughtered but luckily enough Snyder cut was a big event and it sort of it was an umbrella away from all of the noise and I'd love to know the actual engagement on army the dead he must be have they not like squirreled away that as an IP at this point like nobody gives a shit it's just funny when they wanted it to be a franchise but that's not happening but if rebel moon two is as bad or worse than rebel moon one uh his reputation is going to actually be dirt like he's going to destroy himself as an artist and there will be no amount of the director's cut will save me kind of that's no yeah oh god the Snyder cut for rebel moon wanted to put together how long is that like six seven eight hours of shit god it's going to be long yeah i'm curious mauler what what do you think saved army of the dead when it came out like why would it be a disaster at the same time too close in proximity to Snyder cut point where people weren't really they didn't care to pay attention to how bad it was it's sort of like oh i see all the Snyder cut hype right yeah a lot of people at the time who had seen it who weren't people like us who just really thought he was not very good we're like yeah i didn't really like it it was it was there but anyway you know Snyder cut that's a really interesting sort of cultural event meanwhile now right all the Snyder cuts over like there's no there's still people who are saying like oh netflix give him the money and he can continue the Snyder verse which is so funny to me that that would even be a thing he's recent yeah no thanks it's licensed out a competitive yeah a competitive ip for their their their dc like universe it's insane uh he's recently said he'd have he'd be happy to do it animated isn't it funny how that works it's like okay fine not live action but adamant no one cares about animation let me do that yeah so sad but anyway uh i'll i'll be interested to see what's going on with that we are expected to have a random film talk and little platoon with us to discuss it because they're both well versed in Snyder's isms um and yeah after that uh i'm not even sure you're a whole week i can't be expected to plan further than just a couple of days so hopefully you guys will be excited for that uh we will obviously get to all of the kind messages and donations on the catch up portion of this this stuff we sort of split them up now um and of course rags had to had to pop out it was a wonderful how long was this six hour stream not quite as long as the one we did the petition before on the never knows best that was a classic especially the ending but um that'll be it for us for now unless there's anything anyone here wants to say now i'm good well rags didn't get to share his final opinion so i'll speak for him he loved the halo tv show he couldn't get enough of it he's raising it here there and everywhere and i wouldn't stand for it i think he did enjoy it you know he was like this is better than uh like lord of the rings sort of thing is like okay you know fair enough everyone's entitled to an opinion um well all right then goodbye everyone have yourselves a wonderful day afternoon nights did that the other toodles see you later everybody bye bye bye bye bye bye bye