Welcome to Trophy TV, I am joined by Matt Jackson in the studio. FA Cup winning legend. Great to see you. You look the same. Thank you.  Well I've got a Fatties football later on this evening and I will be attempting to play for one hour on one third of a pitch and believe me that takes me through til about next Wednesday before I can walk again properly. I do look the same if you get in those novelty mirrors that you get at the fairground I can find one where I look all right, but no, I do fine. Good, you're looking good. That's the most important thing. Let's start at the beginning of your evident journey. Signed after only nine games from Luton South. How did that come about? Really, really strange. I'd got in the team as an enthusiastic right back for Luton, but having been centre half my entire development career. People don't really know, nobody's business in terms of that. They expect you to be able to play, but I was put in, just simply because we had a right back crisis at Luton at the time. Luton were top division at the side and had been decent, but were struggling. And Howard was actually watching, and it was Brian Greenall, I think, who scouted, got the information. They're actually looking at the left back, John Dreyer, who'd floated around the leagues. And then I'd got in the team, was in good form, but gained just from being a busy, naive, 19-year-old running round and had the nine games and got dragged into David Pleat's office one day after training. And he just said, you're not good enough to keep us up this season and we need the cash, so you're off to Everton. And they literally sent me up on the motorway with my dad that afternoon to sign for Everton, which I had no inkling whatsoever. I was actually a scout called John Fultner, who played for Leeds and Luton. He was doing a bit of scouting, and he'd been my youth team manager at Luton. And he rang and told me the week before he said, Everton are making a bid for you today. And they say I was a floppy 19-year-old as everybody knows. And it just didn't register, it was like, oh great, when you're that age, you just think, well that's what happens in football, never chased up. Obviously the press was different, no social media, so there was no discussions like that. And David Pleat sent me up to meet Howard. I think it was on a, it must have been on a Thursday, Wednesday or a Thursday anyway. Traveled up, he took us out for dinner. My dad was chief negotiator. We'd run the PFA on the way up to say, look, what should the contract look like? And they'd given us some figures. So Howard played his best card, got my dad absolutely, as you can imagine. I had to put him to bed and was like, well done dad. So they made us an offer the next day, and my dad accepted in about two minutes when that was me signing for Everton. But no, it was fantastic. And as I say, when you're 19, you're not really aware of what you're coming to. I mean, I knew I was coming to a fantastic football club and him. And I'm signing for whatever they're offering me. And it's not a question of negotiation in that regard. And Luton got relegated that year and relegated the year after. So it does just show the twists and turns and then went out of the league in the next, whatever it was, five years or so. So it just shows the twists and turns of football and the fortunes that you can have. Maybe David Pleat was wrong. Maybe if you'd have stayed, Luton would have stayed up. David Pleat was wrong about certain things, but whether I could keep them in the top league, absolutely not. 600 grand, we paid for you. Apparently so. So not bad for nine games. Nine games, where? For David Pleat it would not have been a hard decision in that regard. And I was lucky, as is often the case in football, obviously Snodd's had his terrible injury, you know, on the cusp of what should have been a fantastic international career. Alan Harper was obviously in the building as a magnificent professional. Didn't really have anyone there to build us around. So, you know, it was just a great opportunity for me to come in. Yn hawl bro, was it as a break back? Or was it both to develop as you've been a centre back? It never got mentioned at all.  And it actually worked against me, because I didn't have the grounding of natural defensive ability to be a right back. And as I got a bit older, the reason I left in the end, obviously we're fast forwarding a bit, but Mike Walker was taking me back to Norwich, knowing that I was a centre back and to play centre back. And I knew for my career to develop from where I was that I needed to play centre back. And actually, I couldn't name off the top of my head, but if you went through what I consider my best ten performances for Everton, probably two thirds would be as a centre back, and I really didn't play that many games as a centre back for them. So, I was much more comfortable in that position. But I was never going to turn down the opportunity. You made your debut against Aston Villa at all. You just said it was on your birthday? It was on my 20th birthday, yeah. And against my childhood club, I was a Villa fanatic growing up. Mark and Tony Daly, who was very good, scored a very good goal on the day. I don't really remember too much about it, we weren't great. Obviously now I know what losing 2-0 at home is like at Goodison. And it was a bit of a tough time. But yeah, fantastic in terms of environment and amazing. I played actually for England under 18 schoolboys against Switzerland at Goodison, only about probably 18 months previously in basically an empty stadium except for family on a terrible, terrible night, which was destroyed grounds and must have been devastated. But from that point, to have looked at that point at the stadium and have no idea what was coming to 18 months later, having made your debut, it was fantastic. When did you find out you were playing? Right from the get-goers, I remember. Howard was, there was no time to even think about it. We did shallow play on the Friday. Everything signed on the Thursday. I think I must have signed. It might have been a Wednesday, but anyway, training session into the Friday. You're in, go, get on with it. And kept me, kept me playing. And actually, at the start, I was, you know, a game just brought that enthusiasm, didn't have any nerves, as you often don't at that sort of age and just played. But because it was my first season, got halfway through the season, and my legs fell off. And to be fair to Howard, I mean, he abused me every game, but he left me in the team to learn some tough but valuable lessons. And yeah, played a lot of games for the rest of that season. In fact, I think I might have played pretty much every game for the rest of that season. How did you find it going into the, you know, from only having nine games to then being almost an ever-present, and you haven't tried? Yeah, I mean, fantastic from a football perspective. Obviously, the club was in a transitional period. The superstars of, you know, the European era were starting to drift off the likes of, you know, the Cotties, the Keons, people were coming in, the Begarys, who were great lads, but it was just a different time. So there was, I wasn't aware of it at the time. You know, it was not probably the easiest time to come to the football club. Obviously, results showed that the club was very much in a state of transition. But that happens in football, and it was still a magnificent thing to be involved with, with a lot of good lads on both, you know, both, I call them both sides. It wasn't an actual situation, but obviously there was, you know, rats and sharpies had played in a completely different time to the rest of us coming in. Yeah, and so obviously you're in that mix, and then coming into 1993, 1994 season, obviously Howard goes, I mean, was that a shock? Because I felt that season, that we were doing all right. You know, we got around, it was, it went early December, didn't it? We beat Southampton, their own one, and it was good. And then, going home, it said he'd resigned, and I think we were eighth or ninth at the time. And have we started well? We started really, I think. And I was playing centre back, they'd been injuries, and I was playing centre back, and I was like, right, I'm really on the way, I think that's how it worked out with the season, and I was playing centre back, but then got switched to right back and the form dipped a little bit, and I got left out for the first time. But it was the first time my experience was sacking of a manager. And I can't actually remember it coming, not like it is these days where this, it seems to have built and built and built and everyone's just waiting for it to happen. I don't really remember the circumstances, but it was the first time I'd experienced a sacking of a manager, especially on Everton Legend in that regard, and it was a major thing. And it was a shock for sure, it was a shock. And when the manager who signed you, it's always a bit of a strange feeling. Cos that, at the time, I think we were eighth, that night, because, like you said, we were driving home from Goddison and it had gone and it was just such a weird feeling. And then obviously we had to, in my game, we had six, I think we had seven games and we lost six of them over in that period, not blaming Gabby, obviously, but that was the run that put us in, trouble really for the second half of the season. No, it was horrible round because Gabby, what a guy obviously for all the games that he played, brilliant. And before the first game, he was like, I want this job and everyone's rallying for me. The lads were, you know, it wasn't, but sometimes when that coach has to step up and has just been the coach, they don't quite have that extra bit that he needs and the lads relax off it and it was tough. And once you get into a cycle of games like that, it was a brutal time. Horrible, isn't it? Absolutely brutal time. And then we went for the person who was in Vogue at the time, I suppose, Mike Walker, literally in Vogue, spoke to Neville a few times, he's got some great views on Mike Walker. You know, Norwich had been brilliant under Walker to be fair and I think as a fan, we were excited.  He'd be buying Munich and Europe and his team had finished third in the lead a year before, so we were really going after the up-and-cut, or shall we thought, the up-and-cut manager. I mean, he'd come into the club and what did... I love you the way your face is. No, it's just a thought. The thing that makes me laugh is like you've said that about Neve. Obviously, they have two goalkeepers together, both in the goalkeepers' union and Neve seems to have disowned him. Certainly, I've seen various bits over the year. First and foremost, absolutely lovely guy. And we're a lovely guy. Yeah. And would quite rightly have thought after what he produced at Norwich it was an upward curve for him to come to the club. We weren't very good as a team. We just lost all of those games. We weren't a very good team. It's not easy to have that magic switch, but it just never really clicked right from the start. I think, and I'm guessing here because I don't... I don't want to fall back on my naivety of being an excuse, but I was still so young. I just don't think the seniors were having him at all. No, no. And that's me looking back at the time. It wasn't a situation where the dressing room was talking and there was backbiting going on. It just wasn't like that at all, but I just don't think they were really having him at all. And we went on a pre-season trip the following year that... Not his fault, but we were in Sweden and it happened to be the hottest summer on record. We could hardly train and we were out the way, middle and nowhere, lads up to all sorts of hijinks. So you're coming back from a pre-season trip that was actually like an end of season trip. And it's just things like that, not necessarily his fault, but from a professional point of view, you get found out quickly and we got found out quickly. You've been much nicer than Nevis about him. Let's put it there. I'd like to think, I was always going to be nicer than Nevis. That's not necessarily the gauge I would go up against. No, Nevis, quite. He makes his decision and he sticks to it, which is fair, you know. Remember Walker's first game was bolting away in the cup when we drew 1-1 and then back to Goddus and he beat us after X of time. We were winning 2-0s and he was barlow, so we had only goals and then we stretched it off and things started like that. And then we went on. It was weird because when you look at the results, we beat Swindon 6-2 at home and batted them and we beat Chelsea 4-2 at home and Brett Angel scored his one and only goal. Don't remember that, and this is the math things where you're saying it. I remember the game a bit. I wouldn't have known that bolting away. I remember the game because it was a brutal, horrible day. It was a nasty day. I remember the game, but I wouldn't have known that was his first game. I certainly remember the replay. I think Owen Cole scored, didn't he? He did, yes. I remember that. The sequence of games and even now, I'll watch games come on television that, wow, I'm playing that and I have no idea how this ends up. You've played about a million games since then, horrific relegation battle and going to the very, very last day. You didn't play against Wimbledon, did you? What happened? Were you injured or...? I'd been injured. I had an ankle operation that eventually got sorted out only when I signed for Norwich a couple of years later, so it had been an ongoing thing that was a problem. But I thought I'd been quite clever in the week leading up to that game because I thought I need to know that I'm in the team. I was getting back fitness and I can't remember who played right back on the day. Snods was always on the cusp of not sure injury-wise and things himself. So I was like, I'll go back in the team here. So I went and saw Mike on the Monday leading up to the last game of that season. Just to make sure I was in the team, I said, look, I'm coming back from injury. The reserves at the time played at the same, exactly the same time, so they were away at Sheffield United as it turned out.  He said, yeah, not a problem.  So he burst my balloon right there. Absolutely. And I went off to Sheffield United, who on the day were obviously relegated. It was them that went down.  So their stewards, once we're two-nil down, were all way, you know, absolutely abusing us at Sheffield United at Bramall Lane playing in a crappy reserve game that he'd done when I've been actually my injury flared up again. I think I came off after 20 minutes, so I didn't even get to play the game. Then I'm there at Sheffield United and we're getting relegated and you're just thinking it's going to be carnaged. The blue side of Liverpool tonight is going to be carnaged. And then suddenly it was, you know, two-one, and then suddenly their stewards are getting a bit quieter. So in a way I'd love to have played in the game, but how the boys got through that I just don't know. Just ridiculous. I mean, we don't know. It was bizarre, wasn't it? Just nuts. Shudders when I think about it, still shudder. Came back, like you just said, you went on a pre-season trip and then come back, and it was villa around the first day of the season, I think, the new stand, and we drew two-two, and I thought we were OK, and John Fast knew scored, and then just didn't get going did we, you know, when we get to November time. We'd actually had a couple of all-rightries. We beat Westam, Gary Ablett scored. Was that home or what? That was at home, yeah. On a Monday night I think it was 1-0. I mean, it was 1-0 at Norwich, and that proved to be the end of Mike Walker. And then Joe Royal come in, I mean, what, you know... Yeah, I mean, again, it was a transition to an Everton legend, you know. So immediately you knew that Joe knew the club and the culture surrounding it. The fans immediately had somebody to relate to that they knew got it, that he understood what it was about in the club. He brought Willie Donaghy in, he was excellent, from a coaching perspective. Didn't stand for any egos, put on good sessions, and there was an immediate respect for the lads in that regard. I think the team had improved in that respect as well. I think the side was a little bit more settled. There was a bit of magic from, obviously, a big Scotsman that Joe could call upon as well, which helped in that regard. And, you know, to win those first three fixtures, sort of cemented him as he should be here for an awfully long time now. It's set up perfectly, chemistry-wise, great guy, great character, got good coaching staff around him, immediate respect from the lad, an improving team. Okay, let's go. Where can we get to? When you were saying about you didn't see the Howard Kendall sack in common, was it different with Mike Walker? You could see that coming. It was just too much going on, both on and off the pitch, that you knew probably wasn't going to be able to be sustainable. And it was tough, because nobody likes to see that happen. But again, the chemistry, the immediate chemistry that Joe had, Mike and his staff just didn't really have. So you come in, Liverpool, obviously, big game, beat them 2-0, big dunk, and Paul ride out. I'd actually tactically come off at half-time. I had a really bad injury. I didn't know what I'd done, but my leg was just sore. I didn't know if it was a pull, what had happened. I had no idea, but my knee had started to swell on. I couldn't really bend my leg, so I had to come off. It was brilliant, and then I was like, I can't be out of the team at this stage.  Was it Chelsea? It went to Chelsea. It went to Chelsea. That's amazing. I think I cross it.  New managers come in, you can't go out of the team. You've got three games, and you're off and running, and it feels like this bit of revival. But even then, it's not comfortable, is it? We come into the train of the year, and we had picked up, and then we got before one around by Chefwet, which was a mad one on Bach. Funny that I don't remember that one either. No, no, Duncan scored, actually. It was when we'd agreed to sign, and permanently he scored to pull us one up. He remembers it, funnily enough, because he's obviously the header. Sorry to rewind in this. We lost a portsmouth in the cup at some point. That was in the league, but Mike Walker was still there. Duncan played early on in that, and he got a kick on the foot, I think. For me, at that time, I was having a really bad time, and I remember having a chance, which had just completely cocked up in the penalty area, it took a terrible touch. Was it 3-0 the game? We got beat, we were down. It felt like we were 3-0. That's how I remember it, and I got subbed and had to walk from the far side off the pitch, and in my mind, to this day, everyone was clapping as I got took off, and they're thinking, wow, that's brutal, and it had been brutal. On that point, for me personally, you think, oh, this is a struggle. That was the first of the really tough times I'd had. That was hard going. How would it have taken me off after half an hour? I've done a couple of podcasts on this, where Andy Sinton had sort of tormented us in the QPR game, 5-2 or something like that. Down there? No, at Goodison. I called them from 5-3. Whatever it was. We were never in the game, and Howard took me off after 20 minutes or something like that, half an hour. So I had to limp, pretend that I was injured, but I wasn't injured. It was the old no-one looking at you as you come off. Yeah, no-one alive. So, and Andy Sinton, he had the best player I must have ever played against. Tormented me. So I had those sorts of two, and then we're leading into that sort of situation there with Mike, where it's getting tougher and tougher as well. Oh, my God. But it did get better. It did get better under Joe Royal, and we go into the new year, and obviously we embark on the FA Cup run. And I don't know whether there's ever a player who had more of an impact on that FA Cup run than what you did. And people look, you know, we talk about Amacachee coming off the bench and scoring two or Waggy scoring against Newcastle or whatever, or even ride out in the final, but you score the winner of Bristol City, when, let's be honest, we got battered. You know, we were lucky to get out of it. I got Brian Tynion and moved to Barcelona that day. So Andy Sinton and Brian Tynion. Yeah, yeah. Brian Tynion was a close checker behind here. You know, the last minute you take it on, you mid-riff and a left full folly into the far corner.  I mean, I have tried to spin a few times that I single-handedly won the Cup that year, but it's not quite how it's panned out. But even the ridiculousness of that situation, and we had been so bad, just so bad, and even now I've watched it go back a few times and people post it occasionally and you get to see it. And there's just a guy, I take the touch. Obviously I don't think to shoot because I never thought to shoot, so I've no idea what I'm actually trying to accomplish. And I hit the ball, and it must have only gone six inches, and there's a guy behind the goal, goes up, and he's got his arms in the air. He's in full celebration mode, has the ball, and sure enough, this thing flies in, and just may him. That's how much we love goals. We celebrate the minute it leaves people's feet in the hope that it's going to go. But when it's leaving my left foot by six inches, you're not thinking that's destined for the back of the net. Maybe he's like Nostradamus, he knew it was in. But I remember just thinking after that one, it's all name on it. Did you really, though? No, but you know why. It was one of those, I wouldn't think it now because of too much time going by, that had just gone now. But then, we were talking 25 years ago, I was 23, so I'm thinking, you know, 22 thinking. I was still, don't forget, eight years before I'd seen us win the league, so in my mind, we were still... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure any of us sat on the bus at that point were thinking our names definitely on those. I remember the Derby County game, the third round around Craig's York, missed a couple of good times. It wasn't a very good game, then Andy Incliff scored about 10 minutes left, and then we went to Bristol City, and they should have beat us, and then you pop up with a goal like that. Absolutely outstanding, and then, obviously, we get through him, get north of your home and batter them five, you know. But also, well barricam at that time, which I'd seen him at Oldham playing against us as a centre back, and he was very good as a centre back.  Where you were a modern... Yeah, between the two of us. You were a good attacking. Between the two of you, we had the greatest right back I've ever played. Yeah, absolutely. He was a great guy, and he was obviously Joe's guy, that was the important thing. Certainly the important thing for Joe, and it was a tough time for me, because I was playing in these cup games and we were left out. So we were winning 5-1 against Norwich and getting left out and beating Spurs 4-1 and getting left out in the next game. I think James Stewart was in the same situation at the time. Thank God, from my perspective, it was cup tide. But he was a great guy. We got on fantastically well, and I've done a few after-de-bits with Joe where I've absolutely abused him. Because I remember to this day, I never expected to get left out the first time he left me out. We were actually doing fine, and I was walking up a tunnel. Do we play Norwich? I can't remember which way round, but I think we might have played Norwich in the league and then played them in the cup quite close together. Anyway, as I was walking up towards the dressing room, walking up the tunnel to go in, still suited and booted and arriving, I've got a game today, I'm feeling good about myself.  Joe entirely entitled to do that. I wasn't a defender, that was my trouble. I couldn't move my feet quick enough to be a defender as a fallback. I could get away with a centre back with a covering on the side of its final, those natural instincts. But that was always my trouble, whereas Earl was an outstanding athlete, he had really good defensive principles. Not necessarily an attacking fallback. Be nice as he wants to, I'll tell you if he wants to. But, you know, absolutely, Joe's prorg, if you put him in, actually that's what happened, he'd been playing left back, hadn't he, and he switched him to right back. Yeah, that's right, that's what happened. So he switched him over and I obviously went out with him. But would I have swapped it now? Listen, I'd love to have played 500 games for Everton and gone to centre back and whatever, but I'd just thank to this day the fact that Earl was cup-tied and I wouldn't have changed the thing. Let's go back to more positives, let's move on from Earl Barrett. He's a nice fella, a great, you know.  I think that's still the worst I've ever seen go to some parks pitch. Remember? The park ended and there's your sand. It was literally sand.  They were a good side, Newcastle, they were flying. It felt like a big side. The league team was losing, it wasn't like... That was the thing, we were having these great results and performances and Joe was changing the team and then they were either losing or drawing. That league campaign was ugly as well at the same time. So it was quite strange in that respect. And we were playing great as well. I mean, we were playing great. It wasn't scraping by like a Bristol City. They were obviously competitive games and Newcastle were that. But Big Waggy pops up, does his thing and you get through that and then it really does start to look like you've got a chance. Remember in that game, in the last seconds the ball broke to a real fox at the park and then he smashed it into the side net and you know, would have been the last kick at the game and just remember thinking oh my god, thank you and all that. You've got the referee pretending to blow his whistle at the street end and... Now I remember Waggy and Chira was playing, wasn't it? Yeah, was he? No, no, before Shearer. Waggy went to war with on the day and then comes up with as he often did obviously. As for the goal, yeah. But obviously comes up with the goal as well and it was like... But then the semi-final, you again go to Ellen Road, you're back in the team.  And I remember being in a corner where you scored, there was no far corner and brilliant header and Poros won it up. You talk about the three sides, how much of a difference it makes. Honestly, think on the day had it been reversed for the fans they'd have probably won because I can't tell you what a difference it made. To walk out at the start where you walk out pre getting changed, you walk out in your tracksuits and already there's Evertonians in the ground and just everywhere you look is Evertonians, it's like wow, this is special. And then you come out from the change rooms to three sides you don't hear a sparse voice at all just Evertonians everywhere and that's the tingle at that point. You think well this is a special one. And yeah, just an amazing day. Absolutely amazing day all round. I thought you could have celebrated better. Hopeless, hopeless. You just like jogged away and were like conserving energy, that's what it was. That was always what it was. Listen, I scored I scored 15 career goals, I think. I think my first Everton goal if you go back and say it's sorry to backtrack from there. No, go on, go on. Snods put me in at Palace away. We won at Palace. Snods put me in from a quick free kick and I scored I scored my first league goal I've got no idea. Maybe second, I can't remember. I scored against Leeds at Goodison but I can't remember first or second anyway. So I've no idea. So I've gone for a bit of a mix-shan and windmill ran in front of the Palace fans and there's a girl eating chips and she just threw a... she just threw a handful of chips at me as I go past. She's probably only about eight. It's absolutely celebration. Talking about nipping a celebration in the bud it's superb after she's got the most not bothered looking. It just throws a handful of chips at me at that point. I wasn't a celebrator of goals. I was just hopeless. Just one of those, someone jump on me quick and I've got to do. I do remember some time around that time when I bought Anzi and Stuart Barlow practicing celebrations behind the sports hall at Bellefield so that's absolutely taboo. When you're starting to get into that obviously both young enthusiasts it has but practicing celebrations that's not good. I never went down that route as you could tell. Important Heather brilliant editor it is there. The fact. I've seen that a few times. Where are you? Probably some shield somewhere. That's a little old skinny old meat. Is that? Yeah. The creator there. It goes in great. It's all down to Andy Hitch that delivery that he had. We didn't score loads but we created loads of chances. That was me getting in front of the first man he'd whip that ball with unbelievable power just trying to get a flick on it was a successful thing. I mean that day as a fan you just think incredible cos day with it the media wanted man United to top them in the final. There was something that Spurs only ever won the cup in I can't even remember what it was. There was something as I remember that there was a reason it was going to be Man United Spurs anyway. It's going to be this. We were Britain the only goal we can see the company was that day with the penalty obviously she had him bought a pen. And he did and it felt though at the time you think it's a sickness cos that vulnerable 2-1 at the time and I do remember on the day thinking we've come close but it's not quite going to happen for us and then obviously Sub's himself on. Amazing. And then scores two really good goals to be fair. He did remember obviously sad Gary running down the wing to set that one up. What was he doing? The 18-90 minute of something sprinting at the length of the previously. It looked like we were still pouring forward. I watched it again this morning. People are sprinting forward and thinking the last seconds keep what you've got but that's the best way to do it. For sure and it was a great performance and we did play well and actually at 2-1 we didn't really have a wobble. No no. Just amazing but then we were able to celebrate it as well. The fans were obviously brilliant. We all came back to Liverpool. Had a night out in Liverpool. A couple of Liverpool players came in. I know Razorote was around with us at the time and it was lively. But the family's around as well and everyone really could enjoy it and it was a sensational time. More so than the actual final night because everyone was kind of split up and we didn't really get the opportunity so the semi-final was definitely the celebration. Definitely the celebration.  We get it important when the rip switch and stay up and everything's good. Remember we had three home games in a weekend. Didn't win any of them. All three of them. 0-0, 3-3 and 0-0. I think it was self-answering. Chelsea was 3-3 and Wimbledam was 0-0. And then Stewie scores and we won one of the rip switch. We won one of the rip switch and the poor ride out was good. We won a night game and we won and it was like big shire relief. And then we can go to the Cuff Fan and United were they just missed out on the title a week before the last day. But as a fan I don't know whether you felt like this but as a fan going into it even though they were brilliant I remember thinking we'll beat these today. You were optimistic. We just got that momentum and that belief was there and I think because the league and you once you scored a Bristol you were back in the team. We'll win this.  United have the ball, we break and it's you then. You drop the shoulder in the box and then roll it and still we've seen Grimeshooth a while ago and still give them stick. And we missed that. Over the years he's manufactured the fact that it bobbled and it was a terrible pass and all these things. And the fact that it would have been the greatest ever assist seeing a Wembley in my head. But my first FA Cup final memory was Roger Osborne for Ipswich and scores to beat Arsenal in about 77 or something like that. 78 was it so it was my first real one.  And I always had in my mind if I ever ever got the chance to play at Wembley obviously you're going to play in a cup final at some point everyone thinks that. I'm not going to be the one that has cramp after an hour because you always used to sit. Anyone ever got cramping seems to be at Wembley. I was like I'm never going to do that. So I actually went into the game thinking be sensible, conserve your energy and then obviously find myself doing a ridiculous overlap. Over past a Swedish superstar who never passes anyway. So what's the point? And he did pass though. Funny. Even looking back now people are like why didn't you shoot? Never even remotely cross the line to shoot. Cutting on my left foot just absolutely no chance. You just rolled it perfectly for stewards to score. Emphasis on the perfectly. Well it was there to sweep in. But that's how confident I was that day. I'm to the left.   I didn't follow the ball. I just looked at the net and it was gone. It ends back in the net. I'm just jumping around. I don't even know who's headed it in for a minute. It was a brilliant header. He got the power on. Obviously Bruce is on the line. He's done his hamstring. That was another thing that they weren't quite right on. I've got on the bench. I think he's been injured. I knew it was going to be Lee sharp to start. But Giggs is coming on at some point. I didn't want to be Roger Osborne either. I've got other things on my mind at that point. We'll take a 1-0 to start us off. To be fair I know the skulls had a couple of chances. They never made a couple of brilliant shapes. The spine was brilliant. Barry and Joe led the charge in the middle of the pitch. Getting stuck in there. It was a waggy outstanding. Anzi playing his part. Neff was superb. Right down the middle. Then Duncan and Amacati come on. I couldn't back. I didn't come on. I flattened Schmeichel immediately and let him know he was there. I've still got that thing with Schmeichel. I've gone up and we've broken Amacati cut in. I'm thinking just hit it. I never really thought that about Amacati. I just wanted the goalies up the other end. Do you think it's a shame? No. To beat them because they were such a good side as well. I say now, obviously brilliant and everyone dreams about winning the cup. I'm just magnificent. I would rather have played in 1 and 1-1 than to have played in 6 and 1-5 and lost one. I can't imagine what losing must actually feel like. The fact that you want to cut winners. Who did you beat? It's kind of a dream had a part in the winning goal. It's kind of a dream finding. I know however you win it, it's still special but it really does feel special in that regard. It's better against them, incredible. Then we were back there a few months later and they said we should have shot that day. The thing for me at that point and this is the bittersweet part of how good it was in the cup. I know essentially really that my Everton career is over at that point. Cos El's there and obviously I want to play. I was only 23 at the time and I'd already played 160 games. I know I've got to play. I know I've got this right back situation as well. Joe's brilliant with me. There's no issues in that regard. But those were the days as well where you went on week to week. If you didn't agree a contract you went on week to week contracts. That's what they were called. So I was on a week to week contract. David Pleat was chef of Wednesday manager by this place and had contacted me. I want to sign you. I was like well yeah I'd love to come. Of course I'd love to come.  So perfect. Chef of Wednesday that's it. He was out of water really pleaty at the time. He kept me dangling. I wasn't signing the contract. Joe was great cos he didn't hold it against me as such. It's not like now where you have these contract wrangles and it gets a bit nasty. It wasn't like that at all. But literally I signed a week to week contract. It wasn't like you had to go on week to week but that's what it was called. Because they wanted a fee for me. Chef of Wednesday weren't coming up with a fee. So that was it. Once Everton had made me an offer then you just signed week to week on the same deal that I had already signed when I first moved up. It was a really difficult time. The other thing that complicated it was that you had to have a certain quota of domestic players. So I came into that as well. So I wasn't really I wasn't wanted as much as I was needed. Right, okay. So it's a difficult situation at that point and it was really tough going. Was it difficult to leave or not really? Cos you just needed you wanted to play. Difficult to leave cos you know what you're leaving behind. You know the culture. Obviously I've married a scalcer at that point. Family are all Everton. I'm leaving. But I know in football terms that I have to go. That part of it was easy. It was just that it was so long really. Ideally I'd have left after the cup finally in that summer and been on my way. I ended up playing. We played obviously in Iceland. I had a couple of injuries and things and it was terrible in Iceland in that first leg of that game. I was terrible in that and obviously the Port Vale game that was I actually think that was my last game at the club and I was just a disgrace and I got absolutely tormented by Steve Guppy on the night. On that massive pitch. I don't think you were alone. No, it feels personal when it's you as well. But it was not easy at all. And then I ended up getting the chance. I went out on loan to QPR. I went to Birmingham and went to QPR. I went for QPR and Norwich might came in literally on a Sunday night when I signed for QPR on a Monday and that was me gone at the Christmas of 96 I think that I actually ended up going. So I had the start of that season up to the Christmas. We obviously got knocked out in Europe. But I played the game in Rotterdam which was sensational. That was brilliant. We played really well and if John Appel wouldn't have tried to dribble out the box we might have beat him. But with that injuries as well it was a tough time. It was tough. It was amazing atmosphere. I went back for some business stuff last year for the first time and you see the stadium again. But on the night it was the first time we had really seen flares and stuff in the stadium and it was a real cauldron. It was a great night. It actually played pretty well on the night. So that was kind of a boost in that regard. But I don't think too much about Port Vale away. It was an everton career. Especially when in the first game a cauldron it was injury time when Bogey I think it was equalised. We go there. So you move off to so you go with Mike Walker to Norwich. To go down there. So you must have thought he was not a right man. Loved him. Like tactical genius at that time.  He was a coach as well. Down at Norwich. So there was plenty of connections. I've never had a personal issue with Mike. I don't think anyone had a personal issue with Mike. He was a lovely man. Sometimes the job just doesn't work out. We see it from many different managers just doesn't work out and that was the thing. But went back down to Norwich and was playing centre back and ended up as club captain down there. Played a lot of games for them. Role. Obviously playing in the championship at this point. Which ultimately I never really got a chance to test myself at centre back in the Premier League. But ultimately the championship was probably where I was suited for. Do you think? I don't know. I had played good games at centre back in the Premier League. I don't know. It's hard to say. But then obviously I had that sustained period playing championship football and was very comfortable you probably would have been able to play in the Premier League. It's about playing regularly though wasn't it? That's the thing. I was never one that and it was slightly different then as well because the money obviously was starting to come into the Premier League. It certainly wasn't a championship level. But it wasn't a situation where you'd be on 40 grand a week Winston Bogard wasn't it who sat on whatever it was a few years later and didn't play it. I'd never been able to do that. I was very fortunate for my entire career I pretty much played all of the time had a very few periods out of the game. When you see players now obviously with the seven subs and things it's changed but when you see players can you understand why do you do it would you be able to do it now say where there's Hard to say because it's a different game physically and the way that they're prepared is different the intensity of the games is different but from a player that say like you were on the fringe of playing and you were on 60 grand a week 70 grand a week whatever what I mean is do you think you would still be one of those who were like I want to move because I want to play games because you see players who will sit at clubs for sure and don't mind playing 10 games a season I think in the Premier League now it's irrelevant because they're the best in the world and they're paid like the best in the world and they're absolutely entitled to it and that becomes more of an issue when it's somebody who 500 quid a week in league one actually makes a difference to their life you know it's someone the car or the mortgage actually makes a difference so I think at that level people will still make those decisions and you can't knock somebody for protecting the livelihood if they're not going to play that's just but having long periods for me of not playing would not have sat easily I don't think and certainly when I moved to Norwich from a money perspective it was irrelevant knew I had to go to build a career at centre back again and then you went to Wigan so had that run with Norwich played 160 odd games for them ended up as club captain and interestingly obviously I've seen Waggy in his early days and he's been through all of that and he was fantastic as a captain and by the end of my career I was trying to take on a little bit of what Waggy had and the run we went on with Wigan I'd like to think that once I'd got over 30 I had a bit far more maturity and I could take on the best that I'd seen in rats and waggy and those sorts of people a different type of character certainly by the time I got to Wigan I was a mature player wasn't ever going to get any better knew what my role was and felt like I could influence a team and then we just had that unbelievable story Who took you to Wigan? and just had that unbelievable journey made my debut, we were second bottom of league one, lost three two at home in front of 1500 people at the DW Stadium to Wrexham who had a man sent off it could not have been any worse I think this was a week on from Dave Willing having got the players together and saying that man Paul Jules going nowhere and the rest of yous will be out before he is and then a few of us signed and then we went on one at Trammer on the Tuesday night and I just had one of those games where everything went right it was a great night, had a man sent off 1-1-0 and then pretty much from there it was upward curve next stop the Premier League which I'd signed the birthday thing continued I signed for Wigan on my 30th birthday having signed for Everton on my 20th birthday and then you get over 30 and you're thinking no idea I'm going to league one no idea where this is going to go obviously end up in the Premier League again which is just ridiculous and Wigan has been as big a part of my life as Everton was since then really playing centre back in the Premier League then for Wigan, what was that like terrifying, like trying to dodge traffic on the motorway you know you're going to do it for a little bit but they're getting you eventually obviously by this point I was 34 so I was definitely coming to the end they were putting the race course 10-tup around me that way so Paul Jule looked after me brilliant well we've done great together and we had a great group of lads and the first year in the Premier League was superb but I wasn't first choice and never expected to be and shouldn't have been but when we had a bad time and he needed a bit of organisation typical skels look I know you're terrible and I know you can't play and I know you can't run but I need someone to go in and shout out and get more organised so I played alongside Arianda Zew and we did fine and I felt like if I was at my very very best I could cope and I was okay if I wasn't at my best it was hard going I remember Bellamy running away from us a couple of times and we were four-nil down to Liverpool at half-time so it was tough we got to play Man United away every single boxing day so Christmas ruined every single year because it's the local Derby it was tough, Burmatoff Nutmegamy and Curling won in the top corner down at White Heart Lane fantastic memories and brilliant to be a part of it it was hard way and you're coming down the stairs on your bum because you can't walk because you've run round the kids by that they're grown up and they're just looking and thinking what are you doing silly, silly man so I had a chance to sign for another year when Paul Jewel left Wigan and I was like no that's the end of the chapter there and Aidy Boothroyd had actually offered me a contract at Watford and I turned it down in the January by telling him I can't help you they were in the Premier League at the time I was like Aidy I can't help you like no and they got relegating and he came back in the summer and said well there's two years I think he thought I was playing hard to get well I was actually just being honest so they made me an offer that I couldn't turn down actually the most money I ever earned in football was that very last contract at Watford so I had to leave the family move away down there, did a year and then we just came to an agreement that I was no longer the player I once was and that was the end of a beautiful career but fantastic to do it on my terms I played probably nearly 600 games I think it works out and played all that time for 17 years or something so and had a cup winners medal to show for it that's it I mean that's not bad as a being through the leagues and obviously a Premier League goalscoring record still I just read it before I couldn't believe it your confidence it'll never go a half years between Premier League goals wasn't it so scored on the last day of the 1993 season for Everton at Main Road I think we won five won five too yeah I was planning a left foot drill into the bottom right hand corner and ended up slicing it into the top left hand corner and everyone on the day must have thought that is a hell of a finish don't know don't know a little did I know I didn't insist I ended up scoring a header having come on a sub for Wigan when they were teetering a little bit at home to Charlton and never knew I mean never knew and nobody at the time knew nobody ever did it you know what it's like now you get stats back it'll be picked up straight away a guy came up to me shopping in Manchester and a guy just a random guy on the street came up and said you Matt Jackson you're a Premier League record holder you know I had no idea what he was talking about mate and he said yeah 13 and a half years and I've actually got it as my whatsapp picture now it's that one of his I think it's four and a half years ahead of the next but the circumstances for it to get beaten would have to be you'd have to have like a 17 year old makes his debut early scores goes abroad comes back as a 30 year old and scores again I mean it probably will get broken but it's a hell of a set of circumstances there's not too many 13 and a half year careers go on any more for that sort of gap that's a brilliant quiz question so I'm not only it's not a quiz question because nobody will ever know the answer that makes it a brilliant quiz question because you have people going hang on if they keep them away from google people just go like that now on your phone I'm not even sure you can find it on google that's brilliant but someone has officially done the maths because I say I've got a chart from a whatsapp profile picture which shows me ahead of so Andy Johnson he's in the top five sent it forward full on so he's I think he's in the top no do you know what it might be a different Andy Johnson it's the midfield Andy Johnson so it's not I know a gold side up no it's the other one I think so John Oster John Oster I knew there was an extension of Tony on the list that doesn't surprise me to be honest but he's at six and a half years or something like that no one's beaten that that is a hell of a record so when you come to the end what were you thinking then was it a difficult decision or was it like I was still trying really hard it was just tough and Andy was brilliant down at Watford and I'd done a full pre-season being down there but it was just hard going in the first year I'd come alone to Blackpool to get back up to the family who were in the north west so my poker playing was outstanding at the time because I was away from the family and I was playing internet poker in the day and live poker in the evening and that was my life so it was a really sensational time but I had to get back so I came back up and played for Blackpool but I was I was coming to the end definitely the most polite way I've put it but I got very close to Jason DeVos, a member of the centre half so I went down to Ipswich to play for Joe down at Ipswich I'd got very close to his agent and he'd set up an agency in the UK for IMG the big corporation so three years it's been like as soon as you retire you come to work for us I wasn't sure if I really fancied it I knew I didn't fancy the coaching I wasn't interested in that side of it I'd done marketing exams when I was at Everton just to try and keep myself involved I'd had a decent education so I'd done some other bits, enjoyed the business side of things so I retired on the Friday and started work for IMG on the Monday so I had a weekend off but knew what I was going into and then helped to mentor players since then I've still been doing it and done that all the way through and had seven years at Wigan originally went in to run the training ground for Roberto and then ended up just kept throwing stuff at me and ended up as operations manager and set up the recruitment department and oversaw that side and set up the academy for them Like a director of football role was it? Yeah it was really it was very close to the chief exec and the wheeling family the chief wheeling captain coming all the way through so he had a trust that he basically hadn't spoken to him for ages in fact I'd seen him at Wigan train station and he'd jab me in the chest after I'd gone to Watford and just said you were bloody lucky to get that deal and I was like wow after all all we went through and all I'd done all he could have on against me is that and I'd signed for I mean he'd offered me literally pennies to stay just to kind of look after the train changing room when Paul Jula left you were bloody lucky anyway great character obviously great football history himself and ended up with his grandson in charge at Wigan and had that fantastic chapter until the club was getting taken over there so seven years of seeing the internals of Wigan obviously going and winning the FA Cup themselves under Roberto which is just absolutely mad and then Roberto's transition through and obviously in Baines he'd come through at Wigan seeing him come through to be the player and the pro that he's been so great times only good memories Is that something you're interested in in the future being like a director of football I've always enjoyed that side of things enjoyed the internal side of it obviously the way that data's getting used now the structure of football it's certainly something having had a taste of it absolutely don't see why not I've seen young players I like that side of it see young players develop agency side is take it or leave it in terms of the actual fundamentals of that but looking after players is great but you're either inside the game or outside the game and if you can be in the fabric of a football club there's no better place to be when you talk about your education you actually didn't you stayed on to the rail levels rather when I was at Luton I was offered a scholarship and stayed at school and did A levels which actually didn't really help me the 16 year olds they go into the football clubs full time for the first time and it's hard work whereas I was going in once a week at an arrangement timetable with the college and got myself in once a week so I'd just go in once a week train my heart out play on a Saturday and back to school and they'd said at the time look the way you're doing it you really get your A levels because it's a big you know it's a big risk that you're taking but they told me in probably October of that second year of what would be the apprenticeship year there's a three year contract you know relax you've got it nailed down and that was brilliant from the end of what I was doing so it shows you that business you've had your business head on from a young age yeah and to be fair to mum and dad they right from the start were don't give up your education for this I went to a rugby playing school they let me run the football team all the sports teachers were rugby players they let me run the football team which is great but they were like why don't you go and play professional football get yourself off to university and be a rugby player and do these and I still see the headmaster acasin me now and not the best decision would have been to go to university like you wanted me to but they didn't make me stay and do my A levels that is really good and actually even now with the lads that I'm mentoring I do say to them if you've got a chance to do the education make sure you do it and it's good for you you need something different from just football there's a lot to like about the academy system these days but they do play too much football even as a 16 year old I was playing county badminton and basketball and still playing having national trials rugby at that stage so you're playing all of these different sports and you've got that variabate obviously football is a huge part of it but it's still got that variation which I think lads don't benefit from now and they don't ride the bikes out and they don't play in the park or in the streets like we used to do that that's the big difference me say that all the time to fall out of love with the game at 14 that can't be a good thing and we're getting more we're getting more and more people who do it as a job it's a good thing and luckily the famous one of everyone's quotas like Ashley O'Carter actually heath football but it pays me to do his money show I'll never kick a ball again the academy system also breeds a pathway that parents I think can see to change their lives which quite rightly some people you understand that it's absolutely the case in every player playing Premier League football was nine once and thirteen once so there's no reason why you shouldn't be the one unfortunately the statistics tell you that it's just not that easy so when you say Manson what age group is that all the way through so we'll look at players from 16s onwards and then if they're represented by the company I can take over the mentoring role so what does that entail you don't know the name anymore it's a bunch of learning stuff liaising with clubs just helping to promote themselves as people and as footballers to hopefully go on and have careers it was a different time but for me as a 19 year old make him away at a huge football club in a position that you haven't got what a benefit for do you think we talk about that just very quickly because obviously it's having a bit of a rough time at the moment and when I'm never in we're talking to him about mentoring and that is like a professional football England goalie 25 but do you think there's a role but in football for people like say even you with pros where it might benefit I think football clubs are very good at identifying now that support network is needed and with the resources that's around at Premier League there's a lot of people that you would never have heard of doing some really good work with players and I think players get good support in that regard I think more of an issue if we take Jordan's comments this week for example if you play for England everybody hates you well that's what we might say it's probably not what he meant but by the time it's been reported by the written press then it's a Chinese whispers onto the radio on the internet he probably said there's obviously a pressure I haven't seen the exact interview so I'm guessing here I'm just using an example but actually the context of what he meant to say very often is not what ends up getting endless discussion makes the headlines has the pictures posted adds the pressure to his career from something that he's given an interview and he's put himself out there from what I understand really honest he's only ever seemed to be that way whichever way it gets spun it's great to turn it into everybody hates footballers playing for England so it's a great time to be a footballer but it's not an easy time to be a footballer and then what you're doing commentating at the moment we can listen to it on Sky well not quite yet because the MLS season I do the MLS stuff for Sky which is great on the broadcasting I was one of these that would always say yes to people whereas a lot of players say no I would say yes to anything so started actually did a few bits with Beaky for Everton Grant Beacroft all the way back when took that on with Radio Norfolk when it was down there on the occasions where I either injured or suspended for Norwich and I do my Alan Partridge bit down there and it's just led into it I've done work for the BBC, I've done work for Sky this bit's around the world I've got taken to the World Cup in Brazil to be an analyst for the stuff that they put out on the worldwide feed which was brilliant, absolutely fantastic experience a bit like if you've got one cup final and you're winning against Man United if you've got one World Cup you go to it's in Brazil it's experiences like that just fantastic that football has given me it's brilliant and you enjoy the commentating stuff love it just because it's so different and you can make yourself look an idiot you have to have those words coming out and I'm sure lots of people get frustrated hearing me waffle and I'm sure lots of people like who the hell's that but it is great in terms of just allow yourself to look at the game in a different way and allow yourself to test yourself and it keeps me going O'b ddystand yn, leidio i'r tiach math oed on Sky with the NLS join the other dumb late on a Saturday night no, it is brilliant and it's on sociable hours in terms of the commentary cos a lot of them will be late evening kick-offs cos of the time zone differences but it's been great, I've watched football or whatever it's been in the day over here and then two starts in March and then can go down there and I have a few late nights on the M6 coming back up sorry coming back from Los Angeles flying back flying back where it can be difficult to get back but yeah so there you go you'll be able to listen to Matt's dulcetowns on Sky if you join and watch the MLA listen, watch it because throughout the summer it's brilliant and if you're a night bird oh you never learn so much about the game absolutely off forensic tactical analysis different class Matt, massive thank you see you guys the last one did you think 25 years later after a cup final still would not want a trophy no it's mad isn't it, I mean that bit is really mad I did the Chelsea final I think I was there as a guest of BBC on the day and sat right behind the dugout you're just thinking come on boys just got to I do have the discussions with Parkie every now and again it's probably worth probably worth a dozen points a year to us still being the last winners so in a way we'll settle for that for the football club, come on just come on your class yourself was never so many or is it difficult? it's just different it means nothing at all so who would you say you're a fan of or are you not I mean obviously I always always know what Everton's doing obviously you're living Ormscirk so I'm still immersed in it brother-in-law's are red she's just brutal absolutely brutal that's tough times at the moment but he's a red from south Wales people like Liverpool you know one of those so there's plenty from that perspective but always an affinity for the club but as I said there just with this chat in Wigan Wigan was as big for me as Everton was and I say that only because I understood what it was I love absolutely love the chance to have played for Everton when I really understood what it was about when you're 19 and 20 and 21 and they called me floppy I mean that's kind of they called me floppy and I look back now and I just must have been you were a shambles you must have been a shambles no you're giving yourself no credit but at 26 Bruce Rayott came in to Norwich got a hold of me at that point it was like I've had Tony Adams that is a captain and I was captain of Norwich at the time you want to be a captain you start learning some lessons and at the time I was writing I used to write the programme notes at Norwich captains column but just used to take the mickey out of everyone used to abuse like the opposition I remember John Eberle coming down Willie Donoughy there at Sheffield United at the time so my column was just abusing the three of them giving obviously giving diamond dogs abuse about various things and he's like that's not a captain you play on the pitch and it doesn't but when you're having a bad time it does the club's having a bad time and that's the thing that gets pointed out so it was things like that and he was the one that I give credit to for turning me into as close as I could ever be to Waggy that's when it started for me but I was 26 at the time and I played 300 games or something that shows how long it takes to actually get to that maturity I'd love to have experienced Everton and be able to give everything I had but understanding what my role actually was but wouldn't change a thing otherwise Interesting, well like you said before possibly the most influential man in Everton's couple in 1995 It's the best way to phrase it We'll go with that We'll see you about two more Don't tell Neff Don't please that Once again, big thanks to Matt for coming in Make sure you give the video a thumbs up subscribe if you haven't join us on Patreon if you want more videos and make sure you check out Matt on Sky and other channels Eurosport and all of that kind of thing See you later


It presents Rosalind Russell, Dan O'Hurley and Raymond Burr. From Hollywood, the mutual network in cooperation with Family Theatre presents Hound of Heaven starring Dan O'Hurley and Raymond Burr. And now, here is your hostess, Rosalind Russell. Family Theatre's only purpose is to bring to everyone's attention a practice that must become an important part of our lives. If we are to win peace for ourselves, peace for our families and peace for the world. Family Theatre urges you to pray. Pray together as a family. And now, our transcribed drama, Hound of Heaven, starring Dan O'Hurley as Francis Thompson and Raymond Burr as the narrator. I fled him. I fled him down the nights. Yes, you fled him. You eluded him. I fled him down the nights and down the days. Yes, you twisted, turned, tried to escape. From those strong feet that followed, followed after. But did you ever really escape him? His name was Francis Thompson. And of all the lonely and obscure men who lived in London that year of 1887, none had made his bed in hell more surely than he. For him, each night was a lying down in hunger and fear. Each morning, a slow awakening to pain.  Come on, come on, get up, I say. Yes. You can't sleep here. You know that. I know. I'm sorry, officer. Come on, get along with you. Get along with you. For Francis Thompson, waking upon the Thames embankment, each morning was a slow return to pain. A remembrance of dreams made hideous by fear, twisted by hunger. Dreams of delirium shot through with dying stars and the river's mist. Dreams that always had their ending somewhere at the broken edge of the world with the night stick prodding his chest. The agony of waking to another day. And then, as he would get to his feet, brushing the dirt and matted leaves from his coat, pulling it tight about him against the fog, London too, it seemed, returned to life with the first cab in the street clop-topping by. The first mackerel peddler crying his wares with the first farmer's cart piled high with Surrey hay and the whistling of the Edinburgh Express coming down from the northern hills. As he awoke, London woke with him and they faced each other at the beginning of the day, the man of bone and flesh against the city of stone, the man with a tired heart driving his broken knuckles against the stone which never yielded. Each day began as another, a hay penny for a mug of tea, tuppence for a stale loaf of bread, a furtive search for an old rag, a wadded newspaper to line his shoes, and then the long tramp in search for work.  Sorry, no work today. Would you be needing a man? Sorry, we have all the help we need. Unemployment, Francis. Unemployment. It's the scourge that can lash a man's spirit. It's a cross, a contradiction of economics that hangs heavily upon the shoulders of people like you, Francis. So you've got to keep walking, keep searching. Maybe somewhere you will find work. You can't stop to rest. Now, a turn down this street. Now there. Sorry, no work for you. Try the greengrocer across the street. Sorry, no work for you. Perhaps the wine shop. Try that. I'm sorry, no work for you. The warehouse. The warehouse. Sorry, no work for you. Sorry, no work for you. Yes, Francis, the day is over. The long tramping from door to door. Huddle there in the darkened doorway and take your rest. There will be no bread for your hunger tonight. No roof above your head. And there will be no drug to soothe the madness in your throat and brain. Lie in the doorway and take your rest. For tomorrow's another day. And if you live, there'll be more miles to walk. Death comes slowly to the afflicted. So you cannot hope for much tonight. What was that? A drum, perhaps. It could be the failing beat of your heart. No, it's not that. I hear it often. It stops and begins again. Your imagination? No, it sounds like footsteps. Though someone were following me. Try to rest. No matter where I go, I hear them. They follow me always. It's the drug, Francis. Try to get through this night and you're craving for it. Perhaps tomorrow you'll find work. It's not the drug, are my imagination. They are footsteps and they follow me wherever I go. I'm like a man with the hounds crying after him a hunter thing in a swamp and I hear these footsteps night and day I hear them. There, there, hear them. You hear a drum. You hear your heartbeat. It's footsteps all right. Someone approaching the doorway. Hello there. You there, are you all right? Oh, all right. Why, Lottie, you shouldn't be lying here in the doorway.  Oh, all right, I say. Oh, yeah. I tell you, Lottie, this is a bad night for a man's body and soul. What right have you to talk about bodies and souls? Oh, for the right of one human being to another, Lottie. Look, my friend, you mean well and for that I thank you, but I'm sick. I'm tired. I'm hungry. I know you're sick. I know you're alone. That's why I'd like to help you. Oh, what do you mean? Help. I want you to come home with me. My name's McMasters. I'm a cobbler by trade and I can put you to work if you want to, John. Work? You'll owe me nothing like nothing at all. Why should you do this for me? Why shouldn't I, uh, if the situation were reversed, it's you who'd be reaching out your hand to me. This way it's my good fortune. Here, come along now, lads. A warm bed for you tonight and a good day's work in the morning. Hello, Francis. How goes the work? Not so well, Mr. McMasters. I'm afraid I don't think I was cut out for a cobbler. Oh, you're just learning, lad. It's only three weeks you've been here. Tell me, laddie, I didn't want to pry or anything, but what's your trade or profession? I have none. If I did, I suppose you'd call it journalism. Oh, you're right then. Yes, Mr. McMasters. What do you write, Francis? The usual thing I suppose is refuse, essay some poetry. The sort of things that never sell. Here, lad, try some of this tobacco. It's an Irish mixture. Thanks. Light? Where'd you go to school, Francis? Who's shot? It's about four miles from Durham. And you were studying... I wanted to enter the priesthood. I failed. Oh, I'm sorry. Strange when you come to think of it. I'm 28, you know. You think that in 28 years a man will be able to win? Well, to win one victory. You think that, but it isn't true. After I was rejected for the priesthood, my father sent me to Manchester to study medicine. Six years, examinations every two years, I failed all of them. The feat for me was like a web. I seemed to be caught into it, woven into its pattern. And after a while I became afraid to try anything at all for fear I'd fail at it. That's why I came to London. Did you break the pattern? No, to lose myself, to crawl into the darkest corner of the city and hide. Gladly, laddy. And how long have you? Two years, come November. Two years on the streets and doorways? How could you live? How? I don't know. Maybe it was because I prayed. I'd say that only. Sometimes there was even no belief in my prayers. I felt as if I were not being heard. You see, living the way I did in hunger, a disordered nervous condition, loneliness, you can't think clearly sometimes, you don't your own mind's power to think, and then you can't pray right.  I'm still alive, that's all I know.  And maybe time to write. Maybe time to write something great and good. Would be a pleasant thing to be able to say that Francis Thompson settled down to an ordered life and turned out a great work of literature, that he rewarded his benefactor in some generous way. But the truth is quite different. Thompson was useless around the cobbler shop. Oh, he was willing, but he was clumsy and inefficient. He scribbled verses when he should have been working, and his few earnings were spent to satisfy the craving for opium, which constantly tortured him. He spent three months with McMasters, and then one day he disappeared. McMasters waited for him to return that night. He waited many nights as the autumn months passed into winter, but Francis Thompson never came back. Of the many McMasters had befriended and given jobs. Thompson alone proved a disappointment. He was my only failure, McMasters wrote. He was my only failure. Here, you! Where do you think you're going? Stay away from that church. I wasn't going in. I'm drunk and dirty, and I'm going to crawl into that church where it's warm, eh? Thought no one would see you. Go on, get on your way. The church? Yes. Get along, I said. That's where I can go. Oh, yeah, you. You come along with me. I'll take you to the place where you're going. Come on back. Have mercy upon me. Have mercy upon me. Christ, have mercy upon me. Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord, have mercy upon you, Francis Thompson. Mercy. Upon your weakness and failures. Mercy. And through you on all the poor and broken who walk in the city streets. Help us all, oh God. From the city itself. From the cruelty of stone and the horror of the pavement. Defend me, oh God. From the arms house and prison. From the makeshift bed in the doorway. Defend me, oh God. From the hunger and the day and wakefulness at night. From the torn coat and the broken shoes. From the stairs of pity. From the stairs of contempt. Deliver me, oh God. From the man whose hand is against us. From his anger in his cleansed fist. From the sudden blow against the mouth. Deliver me, oh God. And give us this day our daily bread. Give me this day my daily bread. But more than bread alone, oh God. Give us the strength to earn our bread. Hear me, oh God. Christ, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on me. Time to go, Francis. The church is empty. The sexton is putting out the candles one by one. I can't go. If I leave, I'd forget how to pray. You must. Where? Somewhere. A doorway, perhaps.  If you could force a window. No, the rats. There's always the embankment. It's snowing. Then what? I don't know. Perhaps this is the end of all my running. Death? Death comes slowly to the afflicted. Well, not to me.  Is it four days? The dizzy spells, fever, cough? No, no. I can't be far off now, even to me. Do you want to die? Do I want to live this way? Do you not know, Francis, that while you live, your body is the temple of God? God doesn't live in me. God is perfection and health and beauty. Can God live in a broken body and a mind that doubts its own reason? No. I lost God some time after I left the Kabbalah shop. I lost him somewhere in the alleys of East Cheep. But has God lost you, Francis? Huh? Has he lost you? If I deny him, how can he find me? Listen. Do you hear that? The footsteps? The footsteps of the hound. Do you remember, Francis? Footsteps? Yes. Yes. They always follow me. But there's something inside me. Oh God, forgive me some fear, some dread that keeps me running from those footsteps. What's wrong? What you running for? It's nothing. Somebody help me. Help me, please. What happened? You've been quite sick. Don't you remember? How long have I been... Three days. Don't you remember? You were running along the street. Oh, yes. Yes, I remember now. And you were the girl...  I'm afraid I've put you to a lot of trouble. I think I'd better go. Oh, but you can't. You're sick. The doctor said you got to rest and eat. He says you was done from starvation. You called a doctor? I do. Well, that cost money. I've got nothing. I don't say it. What's your name? Anne. Who are you? I mean, what sort of work do you do? Nothing very much. Nothing important. I didn't mean to pry. I just wondered. Anne. Yes? Maybe you haven't done anything important, as you say. I don't know who you are, what you are, but... I've been wandering across a plain of fever and delirium. Three days, you tell me. Dreams came up like clouds over those three days. But in the end, it seemed that I heard footsteps behind me. And I ran and ran. And far on the edge of a plain, I saw a cross standing. And I thought if I can reach that cross, I'd be safe. So I ran toward it. Only when I got there, it wasn't a cross. It was you.   No. No, I only wonder what I can ever do for you in return. And so, once again, through the kindness of a stranger, this time an outcast much like himself, the healing of Francis Thompson began. To him, this girl gave of the little she had, food, clothing, encouragement, but more than that, an ease from loneliness. To her, he gave things unknown in her life, tenderness and reverence and respect. And then at last, Francis Thompson began to write. The Passion of Mary, a poem. Paganism, Old and New, an essay. Two things finished, actually finished. It's hard to believe that I have the power, the sheer mental power to work them through. Francis Thompson's work was good, and Wilfred Menel, editor of the magazine Mary England, published the pieces, sought out the author, and extended to him the hand which would lift him from obscurity. But Francis Thompson, about to reach for the hand, suddenly withdrew himself. For what about Anne? And I sold him to Mr. Menel. And Anne's interested in me. He wants me to come and live with him to do my work at his home.  Us? Yes. You see, I told him we were to be married, and that I'd come only if you were with me. Oh, no. I want you to marry me and...  You know that. You're great and good. I might only hurt you. I might keep you from... It's been good what we had together, Francis. But you'll have to go on alone now. You'll have to go on alone. So the girl who had lifted him from the streets vanished from his life. All that day he searched for her, all the next and the next, but she had disappeared. He turned away from the extended hand of Menel in his search for her, and the days passed into weeks, weeks into a month. Then two months as he tramped the mighty labyrinth of London. But he never found her. Among the millions of faces he looked into, none was hers. And then at last, one day, sitting on a bench in Covent Garden, barren from the grief that drained him, he heard the familiar sound of footsteps. Francis? Yes? She's gone. You'll never find her again. I know. And now there's nothing left. Nothing but the footsteps. You hear them? I hear them. Think back, Francis, think back. Isn't it strange how each time you've cried, each time the horror of life has risen up to crush you, you've heard the footsteps? Yes. Each time I've lost the sense of God, I've heard them. Only in those times, I begin to hear them faintly, when my faith grew weaker, when my prayers, and then at last when I had lost the sense of God, they beat like thunder in my ears. As they are beating now? Yes. And as they beat the night I came to you? Yes. And the Night McMaster's found? Yes. Yes. What are you driving at? Don't you know? Think, Francis. Think. Is it possible you could touch God by the hand and not know it? The footsteps of God in Charing Cross, no matter where I fled, they followed down the nights and days. The twisted lanes and passageways of all London, down the years and months and days they followed. God's love pressing in on me when I denied him. God's love hounding me through the swamps of despair. God who wouldn't let me go even though I had denied him. God looking at me out of her eyes and touching me with her hands. Yes, I know now. I know these footsteps. Then search out your soul, Francis, and put what you find into words. All the hunger and pain and loneliness of these tortured years, write it, Francis. I fled him down the nights and down the days. I fled him down the arches of the years. I fled him down the labyrinthine ways of my own mind, and in the mist of tears I hid from him. Write it for all to read, Francis, for the poor, the beaten, the hungry, the tempted, the weak, for those like you all over the world. I hid from him, from those strong feet that followed, followed after, but with unhurrying chase and unperturbed pace, deliberate speed, majestic instancy. They beat and a voice beat more instant than the feet. All things betray thee who betray us me. Put into words the streets in the sleepless nights, the cold sweats and the agony of thought. Put McMasters into them, and, and, and put the losing of God into words, the awful loneliness. For though I knew his love who followed, yet was I sore a dread, best having him I might have not beside. And Francis, put into words the joy that came when God had found you once again. And pass those noise at feet, a voice comes yet more fleeting. Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest, I am he whom thou seekest. Put all this into words that others may draw courage from them and find their way to peace. For it is you, Francis Thompson, who went down to make a bed in hell, and found God's love following you. Even there, I am he whom thou seekest. And so, Francis Thompson, who today ranks among the great poets, went on to build a new life for himself, aided by the kindness of the mental family, went on to complete the Hound of Heaven, and give the world one of the most inspiring poems of all literature. The story of God's love and mercy. Thank you, Tony Lofrano. This is Rosalind Russell again. Christmas is a wonderful season of the year, and it has a wonderful flavor for all of us. The decorations still lie in our city streets, and each house still has its Christmas tree with tinsel and lights and ornaments. The children are playing with new Christmas toys while fathers probably are trying to remember how long the tree stayed up last year and how in the world he ever got rid of it when the time came. Chances are mothers trying to think up a different way of serving the remains of the turkey, perhaps cream turkey on toast or hash or maybe turkey soup. But through all this, the Christmas spirit still prevails. Though the day itself is over, there's still that feeling of warmth and peace, which is a regular part, an ever-present part of the celebration of the feast of Christmas. I say feast of Christmas because Christmas is a feast day, although sometimes the real meaning seems to be lost under Santa Claus and reindeer, snow scenes, holiday candy and the exchange of gifts. It is never the less important for the only one real reason. Christmas is the birth day of the Son of God. It marks the day when God the Father ended the centuries of waiting by sending the promised Messiah in the person of his only Son. When he sent Jesus to be born in Bethlehem and live among us that we might have eternal life. Now, the holiday is over for the year and the gifts have all been given and accepted. The people of the post office department are giving themselves a well-deserved pat on the back for having handled the volumes of packages efficiently and they're getting ready now to handle the thank you notes. Millions of people will be writing to acknowledge gratitude for gifts received. But what about the first gift of Christmas? The gift of the Father when he sent his only Son to us. In this instance, Family Theater recommends family prayer as a means of expressing our gratitude and as a means of keeping the Christmas spirit in the family all year long. Daily family prayer. A family gathering together for a few minutes each day to express gratitude. To thank God for his many blessings can keep love in the home and love is the essence of the Christmas spirit. Then too, the family that prays together stays together. More things are wrought by prayer and this world dreams of. From Hollywood, Family Theater has brought you transcribed Town of Heaven starring Dan O'Hurley and Raymond Burr. Rosalind Russell was your hostess. Others in our cast were Jean Bates, Ben Wright and Richard Peele. The script was written for Family Theater by Frederick Lytton and was directed by John T. Kelly with music composed and conducted by Harry Zimmerman. This series of Family Theater broadcasts is made possible by the thousands of you who feel the need for this type of program, by the mutual network which has responded to this need and by hundreds of stars of stage, screen and radio who give so unselfishly of their time and talent to appear on our Family Theater stage.  This is George Crowell expressing the wish of Family Theater that the blessing of God may be upon you and your home and inviting you to be with us next week when Family Theater will present Survival Mechanism starring Cameron Mitchell. Gigi Perot will be your hostess. Join us, won't you? Family Theater is broadcast throughout the world and originates in the Hollywood studios of the world's largest network. This is Mutual, the radio network for all America.