Thank you for joining us for this San Jose State University iSchool Career Podcast. My name is Kim Doherty and I'm the iSchool Career Consultant. Today, I'm going to be interviewing an information professional and good friend who I've admired for years, D. Magnani. You may know D. as the past president of SLA, but as you'll soon learn, this is only one of the high impact roles that she's been in throughout her LIS career. She fairly recently took yet another step forward in her diverse path as an information professional, which she's going to tell us about today along with some other information. So D, let's start off with your fairly new official title and a description of what your position entails. And then could you tell us a bit about the position you had previously? Absolutely. I am currently at Rutgers University in New Jersey and my title is the Assistant Vice President for Information Services and Director of New Brunswick Libraries. And that's a lot of words for, I am in charge of New Brunswick Libraries. Now Rutgers is a university with four major campuses. There's Newark Camden, RBHS, which is our Health Sciences, and then New Brunswick. New Brunswick itself is made up of College Avenue campus, which is where Rutgers was born and began, Old Queens, we're more than 250 years old now. And Douglas College, which was the women's school, Cook's campus, which is the birthplace of the Agricultural School and Land Grant College. So it's where the School of Environmental and Biological Sciences is. The Livingston campus, which has the Business School and a number of social sciences, and then the Bush campus, which is where engineering and sciences and pharmaceuticals and all sorts of other sciences are. So New Brunswick is the elephant in Rutgers, I suppose you could say, it's five campuses in one. And so I have seven core libraries, special collections in university archives and an annex that fall under me. And so it's a wonderfully diverse and broad and exciting role, and no two days are alike. And I love being here. I actually grew up in New Jersey, so this is a homecoming for me. I've had four generations of family earning more than 14 degrees here at Rutgers, so you could say I've come home. But I've been here 18 months now. I came from New Mexico, where I was at Los Alamos National Laboratory, and there I was head of their research library. So very different role. Our students that were there were mainly ones that showed up in the summer from universities across the United States. We really had postdocs and major scientists there. I needed a security clearance to run the research library there. And I like to say that we covered everything, science and technology at Los Alamos. And so there was a very different role, and yet I have a strong STEM background. I worked at MIT. I worked at a cryogenic vacuum company. And so I've had a number of roles in technology, although I've also had roles in advertising. I worked at Wyden and Kennedy, which does the Nike ads and such. So I actually have quite a diverse background, but quite strong in STEM. And in terms of the STEM background, for a lot of students who are thinking about where the opportunities are, STEM is being or STEM types of companies and opportunities and information roles are being sort of looked at as an emerging opportunity. Do you think that people like me, for example, who graduated with an undergrad in comparative literature and don't have a strong STEM background, could nevertheless move into these roles and learn if they were sort of committed to learning that discipline or at least the basics of it? I think this is absolutely something that can be explored. And in fact, you would find examples of people with allied degrees or similar backgrounds that migrate toward these roles. I myself went to Lehigh University as an undergraduate. I was an arts engineer. That's how I started. I then was an arts business person and ended up with an English and government degree. And so you could say I had the perfect librarian background because I studied everything. So I did have physics and chemistry and some engineering basics and computer programming courses in there. However, there is no STEM in my BA degrees degrees that I received from Lehigh. So I suppose you could say I am a poster child for that. Although they counted the fact that I had taken physics and chemistry and computer programming as good enough as an entree card. And in fact, I'd love science. So I think having an appreciation and perhaps a passion for some of these things and a curiosity. Curiosity is so, so important for these roles can indeed lead you to gain some experiences and maybe start. You know, I had first more general roles in my younger professional career. And then I moved into slightly tailored ones. I was in an architecture library for a while and then I picked up contract work. It was in one of those periods where there was hardly any library jobs out there. And so I did some journals work for an engineering company and that put a technical company in my background. And then I was actually hired as corporate librarian at this cryogen cracking company that I've referenced before. And there I was. I had a direct role in technology and science. I did cryogenics and acumen research for the engineers and scientists at this company, which led to my MIT role where I was actually the business librarian. But MIT being MIT, they hired me as a business librarian because it's my STEM background. And you've said sort of the recurring phrase for so many of us who have had these sort of eclectic careers, which is, and then that led to, and then that led to. I think that's a great lesson for students and new professionals is that that's how careers evolve, is that you take that first step and then that opens up another opportunity and then you move into another opportunity. So I'm gonna back you up a little bit then and ask you, when you were graduating from your MLIS program, what job did you expect to be doing or what did you think your career was gonna look like? Well, I'd need to back that up just a little bit more to say why I went to library school in the first place. I happened to marry someone in the Navy and we were being moved every six months to three years. And I had taken the GREs, I had planned to go to graduate school and those test scores were going to go bad because being in the military and moving around so much, we started our family right away. So I had three children post bachelor's degree by the time I was 25. Oh my gosh. So life was very busy and intense right away. And so there we were being moved around in the submarine community and my GRE scores were gonna go bad and I thought, my goodness, what can I do? And thought about librarianship because they could frankly send us to Guam and there would be a library. So I looked at it from the flexibility standpoint and frankly that has been one of the most wonderful aspects of getting an MLIS degree is the ability to adapt and change and move into different roles no matter what life was doing or how I was evolving as a person and a human being. So I went to library school and learned way more about librarianship and then I ever realized because, you know, frankly I had used a library but I was probably like most undergraduates and I thought anybody standing behind a desk was a librarian and so I got quite an education when I went to library school. So my expectations coming out, we as a family were deciding to my husband would leave the military so that he would be more than a picture on the mantle piece for our children. And so we had to line up what would my husband do and what could I do and how did we map that together? And so frankly, I was fairly open. I had learned about corporate libraries. I thought that was pretty fascinating that they actually existed. I thought I would become an academic librarian. I just loved academia. I loved being at college. I would still be a student if I could just keep reading and now thinking for the rest of my life. Another good reason to become a librarian, you get to think and be curious constantly. But anyway, so I did that post graduation applying for jobs and I had to have part-time work for a number of years simply because it was that period. Another period of there being no real permanent long-term jobs or very few on the market, 100 people applied for each one. And fresh out of library school, that was a challenge. So gosh, I did some work at Utica College actually that was a, it was a couple of year position in upstate New York. I learned how to teach at that point. They weren't really doing instruction in library school and I was a really terrible teacher for students. Now it's what I miss most being an administrator because I love to teach. And from there, I actually did grant work at RPI in Salire. And there I worked on hyperlinked collections. So it was really before the internet was databases. The way we use information now, it just wasn't there yet. We weren't even talking perky and stuff yet. And so I worked on this hyperlinked instruction program and I worked with the physics department and with their design department and with the libraries. And so there I gained some technical expertise that I would have never gained before.  That's when we officially left the military and I was at Roger Williams University for a little while. And then I had my corporate jobs and I feel like technology that was actually my first full-time job with benefits. And it was really exciting to get that. So I think I probably went a little awry from your question but once again, it was lots of steps to get to. Well, no, actually that's perfect because I think what you, a couple of things takeouts from what you just were talking about is the adaptability of the skill set and the need for sort of a resiliency in your career that if this thing goes away, okay, I bounce back, what am I going to do next? And to your very wonderful points in your descriptions, there's always sort of something that you can move to next if you are willing to create those opportunities if they're not being offered to you in the moment. So from my perspective, that's really helpful to know.  What skills would you say are most in demand or important in the job that you have now? And how has that sort of changed over your career? Well, now I'm an administrator. So do you want me to answer as an administrator? Yes. What are the most important? Yes, okay. Resiliency. There are challenges in higher education today that are well, frankly, being experienced I think across both our industry and in time where we are right now. Budgets don't work the way they used to. We need to reimagine how we do business. Strategy is quite important. The human element needs to be remembered as technology. I don't want to say pervades because I'm a huge technology fan but you can't lose the humans in the technology. Undergraduates and graduates and faculty still need a human touch in there. And how is that scalable when we're serving thousands of students and hundreds of faculty members? How can our 35 librarians and 75 staff actually reach out and touch? So this year I've been doing strategic planning. I did personal interviews with administrators and then lots of surveying. And so the ability to look forward while still thinking operationally of during the next 12 months, I need to do this. But my budget is this. And how do I connect those two? So finance is important. Please do, even if you don't love math and unfortunate I am a math fan, you need to understand budgets on the practical level. You need to, I think be a champion of people and their development for your own staff, your librarians, the people inside your organization.  How are you gonna get there? Then what are the skills needed to make those succeed or make those goals and just successful? And then what are the competencies that you have right now within your staff? And then what are the gaps? And those gaps are what you need to address in developing your staff or hiring your staff, either making a new staffing plan or if you don't have that opportunity, bringing those skills inside and there's descending people to conferences, there's being active, there's bringing trainers in. So you need to think internally as well as across your organization, whether it be a company or a university or you got romanticized work to Los Alamos and understand their needs and prioritizing. So you can't do everything. And that's probably one of my greatest weaknesses is I want to do everything back to that curiosity. It's a strength, but a little bit of a courage. If you run yourself into the ground, you do need to prioritize. So prioritizing is an important skill. And I've probably already given more skills than you want to cause there. Well, I think that the issue about prioritizing is so important because I think that applies literally to everyone who is looking at how do I contribute at my highest level in the job that I'm currently doing, but then also how do I grow my career? And when those two questions can mesh, that's great. But sometimes you end up having to say for this amount of time, this priority is going to take precedence over everything else that I may want to do or like you say, that I'm things that I'm curious about or I really love to jump in on and learn more about. So prioritizing and sequencing become really important, I would agree, if you are to achieve the goals that you know you need to achieve for your organization. So I found that really helpful. And then I'm gonna follow up with that sort of as a personal question over the course of your career and the many, many, many different kinds of work that you have done. What have you enjoyed the most? I would have to go to Olin College of Engineering. It was a startup school when I got there. I was the first library director they hired. There were only freshmen when I arrived, the first class and I needed to imagine what a new engineering library at a brand new school should look like. The students were all there on scholarship and those early years funding was not the issue which was a beautiful thing. I was able to be super, super creative and really think about what was important. And so engineering students, they're very hands-on. They're making stuff. And so I created the first material samples collection in an engineering library. I believe at that time in the world, there were certainly material samples collections in say architecture libraries or design libraries or design firms, but not in engineering libraries. And so it was a wonderful thing to create. I did this grand road trip of museums and design libraries, architecture firms, other kinds of collections. UMass Amherst had specimens of fish and other creatures that had once been alive and they were all catalogued. And so looking at all of these different types of collections, MIT had quite a remarkable collection of other objects that could circulate and that visited them. And so I created this collection and then we also had a tools collection so students could come in and check out a drill and things like that. So we had a learning objects collection. So we had a lot of structures. You're in the forefront of the Makerspaces initiative and public lovers. Actually, yes, I guess because I'm not sure that there were Makers, I think they began emerging. I was at Olin for 11 years and so they were beginning to emerge at the end of my time, but the ability to really create an interesting space and then also interesting conversations. I brought faculty together from Babson, Olin and Wellesley and we had dialogues that crossed the disciplines. I had a conference that brought computer programmers and publishers and faculty members and students and librarians to talk about the future of publishing and what it meant for tenure and e-books and things like that. I just had, it was a place to be creative and to really stretch and grow. So it was my favorite time as far as that went. The faculty were wildly creative as were the students. It was just a great environment. This is an interesting and very unusual circumstance to be in an academic environment where you are essentially a startup, but that's one of the cool things about being in a startup of any kind, including academia, is that incredible freedom to create, to collaborate, to envision, to ask how could this be? It's very best iteration. So I completely agree with you about how exciting those kinds of opportunities are and just to make clear for students who are listening to this, that doesn't mean that you actually know sort of everything that you're doing when you go into situations like that. That's absolutely correct. It's just sort of taking a leap and saying, I trust that I can bring together the right people. I can ask the right questions and we can find the right answers and solutions. So I love that story, do you? That's wonderful. So... And I'd like to quick footnote that story before you go to your next question because that was perhaps my favorite, although I've had a number, I love my current role, but it followed being laid off. And so I lost a job in Oregon and it was when I was at the advertising agency and it was that 2001.com bubble burst and they just, they closed down the advertising library and I was crushed. I think I probably cried for two weeks and before my husband said, get over yourself. And I did start a company for a while and I ran my own company. And it was actually the startup experience that helped me get the job at Olin College because they wanted someone with entrepreneurship experience in addition to a tech background. And so all of these things came together. So losing a job led me to a rather amazing experience. That is a great point. And also your point about all of these things that don't seem like they would be related to each other. In fact, are the things that come together to make you incredibly well-prepared for the next opportunity that you cannot even anticipate. So... Exactly. I love that. Well, and that gets us to the next question, which is, are there any changes on the horizon that you feel will have a strong impact on the work and or opportunities of information professionals in the coming years? Yes, absolutely. And it's difficult to tie into a neat bundle. But if I began to see it when I was at Los Alamos, we wanted to put together our own taxonomy for the lab. We did such specialized research. And so we kind of put a call out for people with semantics background. There's so many words you could use, ontology, ontological backgrounds. And we came up with people from all over the lab that had never spoken together. It was really quite fascinating. But what was emerging from that group was this need for multimodal. So that goes beyond multimedia. This is modes of content and information. And so it could be an electrical switch or it could be the book on the shelf or an electronic file or an audio clip or a media thing. The content is whatever is necessary to answer a question or probe or do a research project or invent a product. And so I think that multimodal going beyond multimedia is going to be incredibly important whether you're in academia or in corporate or whichever school, public environments. Here at Rutgers, media is an incredibly important delivery mechanism for teaching and student success. However, you have old DVDs, you have CDs, you have streaming media. Everybody wants streaming media. You license it, you buy it, you lose it to the roads. The number of complications around this topic is bringing up preservation questions. The semantics, actually the ontologies are so fun. And so if you like words, this is a wonderful time to I think be in this profession because they're just emerging in so many ways. Creating crosswalks, have an understanding of, at least be able to say what a crosswalk is. Because interoperability, we have all of these systems.  Well, how do you put these together and have them work together? Does this interoperability with these multimodal things and what do you call them, the ontologies, they're all coming together and are super important. And so I think a lot more about that than any book on the shelf these days. And would you say that that applies to data as well as say text or media? Oh, definitely. That's why I think multimedia is such a limiting term. Data is absolutely one of the modes. And yes, we're working with the Office of Research and the equivalent of high performance computing here on data questions and data needs. And what is a data set? Department of Energy defines it one way. Other people have, you know, there's all sorts of ways you can define a data set. So yes, that is absolutely included in there. Okay, that's fascinating, Dee. And actually, that's the first time I have heard the phrase multimodal. So good to know. Well, I could keep you on the podcast with us for the next three hours, but I'll ask you a quick last question, which is what advice would you give students still in grad school in terms of positioning themselves for jobs when they graduate? I would say be open and not just open to different kinds of jobs, but be open to how you position yourself and position your gifts. Everybody has a different background and can put those strengths together in a unique way. There are opportunities for people in our profession in so many places. And I would strongly encourage people to just think broadly and read broadly because you find opportunities where you would never, ever expect them. And I've told my LinkedIn success story before, I had to photo shoot done, redid my profile, made sure I had presentations and titles and the active with associations do that, all those things up to date. And two weeks later, I was contacted by Los Alamos to please apply for a position. So how you position yourself and thinking broadly are very important traits. I would have never seen a Los Alamos position. I just had no clue it was open. So put yourself out there, I guess. Become visible. Yes, yes. Interesting. All right, well Dee, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I really, really appreciate it. I would encourage everyone listening to take a look at Dee's LinkedIn profile because it actually is one of the ones that I use when I teach LinkedIn webinars for excellence. And I would hope that we all get to have as broad and deep and rewarding and high impact, a career with our LIS skills as you have had with yours, Dee. And again, thank you. And with that, I will end our meeting. Thank you.


So, we begin again after the tea break and now this is going to be a discussion session. I will take up any questions which come up on any topics discussed so far. So, I am going to talk to JNTU Hyderabad, so over to you JNTU. Good afternoon sir, the question is in case of the steam tables or MOLLEAR chart beyond what region can we treat steam as ideal gas? My recommendation is do not treat steam ever. This is a very common mistake I do and I inculcate the habit of not treating steam as an ideal gas on my student by giving a very severe penalty. For example while evaluating a quiz, if I see that he is using PV equal to RT, he or she is using PV equal to RT for steam, simply stop there, 0 for that question, no questions beyond that are evaluated, period. Over to you. Okay sir, thank you. I am talking to teachers, so such things are okay. SVNIT Surat, over to you. Question number 3, part B, what will be the nature of HS diagram, over to you. I suppose you are talking of question 3 in the combined laws, this thing, over to you. Yes sir, over. Okay, so what is given to us, let us see, let us look at the problem CL3, maximum useful power output from an adiabatic steam turbine, inlet is given, exit pressure is given flow rate is 5 kg per second, also determine the exit state. So this is, we want maximum useful power from an adiabatic steam turbine, it is an open system, so the world useful is not of much importance here because it is a steady state open system problem. And since it is adiabatic, the maximum power will occur when it is adiabatic and reversible that is isentropic, so the exit state will be at a pressure of 1 bar and entropy the same thing as that of the inlet state and then you can determine the maximum power. Now rework the problem, if the steam loses 40 kilo joule per kg of heat to the atmosphere which is at 300 K, what is the exit state in this case. Now look at it, we have a steam turbine apart from the pressures the state I and the pressure at E, P E is given, state I is completely specified, Q naught is specified, Q dot naught is given as it loses 40 kilo joule per kilogram of heat, so this is 40 kilo joule per kilogram with a negative sign into m dot that is the way it is and environment is at 300 K, so we want the maximum power in this case that means the situation where s dot P is 0, so the first law would be Q dot naught minus W dot s in this case W dot s max will be equal to m dot into h i minus h e, this h e is to be determined but in this equation we know everything but we do not know W dot s max and we do not know h e, so first law by itself is not of use to us, the second law would be Q dot naught by T naught plus sorry this s dot P will be equal to m dot into s i minus h e, s dot P is 0, so this gives us a handle on s e then P E and s e give us the exit state that exit state because Q dot naught is given, T naught is given so exit state we get s e from here that exit state we substitute here and get W dot s max. Now depending on the sign of Q dot naught, since Q dot naught is negative your s e will be wait, have I written it as correctly or should it be s e minus s i, I made a mistake here in both the equations this should be h e minus h i and this should be s e minus s i, so s e is to be calculated, Q dot is negative that will give you s e less than s i and h s diagram will look like this, inlet state, inlet pressure, exit pressure and this is the isentropic exit state when there is no Q dot, our exit state because there is a heat loss will turn out to be somewhere here, this is exit state for not reversible turbine Q dot naught less than 0, so the process will look something like this, you need not show it by a dotted line, you are justified in showing it by a continuous line because it will be a reversible process but the fact is we do not really know what the detail is inside, we actually know only i and e, so only from that point of view it is not because it is not a quasi-static process, it is a quasi-static process but we do not know the detail, you may as well join it by a straight line but remember that that straight line does not mean anything, we should not read off a point in between and do any computations based on it, over to you. Over and out sir, College of Engineering Pune over to you, hello sir my question is, is it possible to attain 0 Kelvin temperature, simple answer to this is no and before you ask a supplementary is why the answer is look at it like this, if I have a system at 0 K that means suppose I am assume I have created a system at 0 K then all that I will do is run a reversible 2 T heat engine or actually any heat engine, say take a reversible 2 T heat engine argument it is simpler between some temperature and that system at 0 K, it can be however small, it can take picowatts of heat from the temperature, system at temperature T0, it may reject picowatts of heat to the system which is at 0 K, what will be its efficiency, its efficiency is 100 percent, that violates the Kelvin plant statement of the second law of thermodynamics, because if you say Kelvin statement Kelvin plant statement of the second law, it is a very strong statement, you said that look you cannot have a heat engine which only absorbs heat and converts it completely into work, if I have a system at 0 K I am straight away able to set up an engine with a 100 percent efficiency with that means which absorbs heat from say a system at 20 K, 30 K or 300 K and converts it completely into work, since we know that Kelvin plant statement it is a good statement, we have not found out a single violation, so that means our basic assumption that we can have a system at 0 Kelvin that itself is not correct, over to you. Over to you sir, thank you. JMTU Hyderabad, over to you. Hello sir, would you please through some light on Ansagar relations which are very important for us sir, over to you sir. Okay, you are talking of the Ansagar relations better known as the Ansagar reciprocal relations, okay, number one is Ansagar relations are not in our domain of thermodynamics, they are in the domain of non-equilibrium thermodynamics or modeling or thermodynamics of transport processes, okay and it talks of energy fluxes of different kinds, particularly the Ansagar relationship between the mass diffusion and heat transfer and vice versa are very well known, but we will not look at them because that will involve quite some time, okay. And remember now that you are talking about it, many textbooks have a small discussion about whether the nomenclature thermodynamics is the proper nomenclature for us, because we lay, we put so much emphasis on equilibrium which in mechanics etc would mean that we are in the domain of something equivalent to the statics part of mechanics rather than the dynamics part of mechanics. So many people say that what we teach should really be called thermostatics rather than thermodynamics and there are books on what we call thermodynamics, but their title is thermostatics, if we accept that then thermostatics will be our thermodynamics, thermodynamics would be what follows that is fluid mechanics where there is non-equilibrium and that is counteracted by momentum transfer and heat transfer where there is thermal non-equilibrium temperature variations and that is attempted to be compensated by heat transfer, okay. And out there even now when you study heat transfer and mass diffusion you study them independently and when you study them independently Ansagar's reciprocal relations need not be invoked, but when you look at the thermo diffusion effect and diffusio thermal effect that is the so rate effect and I forget the other effect, du-4 effect, when you study those things in detail then you will have to worry about Ansagar's reciprocal relations over to you. Government call it Salem over to you. Good evening sir, sir some doubts in the notations which you are often using sir, identically equal for defining many of the laws whether you are simultaneously you are not defining the converse of first and second, third thermodynamic laws, thereby we can say identically equal, otherwise equal only sir, insisting very much on identically equal sign and again absolute properties, some characteristics, state functions, same name for, for, and again identically equal sign, you are using delta for small increment as well as for total quantity also, for example delta S12 equal to integral 1 to 2 like that, probably at the same time at some other place you are using delta for increments sir, is that internationally accepted notation, some confusion about it sir, can you please explain over to you sir. Your question is nice, what I am doing is my notation sometimes created on the spur of the moment but I have this ability may be just because some of my teachers used it not necessarily teachers of thermodynamics, when I say a equivalent to b for this mean a is defined as b, it is not the equivalence relationship which you come across in mathematics and logic, we have a number of such things in thermodynamics, for example you know we write T a equals T b, if you look at it mathematically it means the numerical value of temperature of system a equals the numerical value of temperature of system b, provided both are on the same scale of temperature. In thermodynamics this only means that T a and T b are isothermal states and this is equivalent to saying that if the two systems in states a and b respectively are brought in thermal contact with each other across a diatomic wall there will be no heat transfer. Then the other one is about d and delta, I agree that sometimes I write d, sometimes I write delta, I write d when I am definite that I am going to integrate it, if I am not going to integrate it I might as well use delta it does not matter whether you write a small d or a capital D. The third one is regarding property, once you understand the characteristics of the thermodynamic property, whether you call it property or property of state or state function or a function of state all these things are equivalent. But I agree that my nomenclature is not universal, if I write a book then I will have to do two things, I will have to be very consistent with my nomenclature and number two I then I must use nomenclature which is reasonably in accordance with nomenclature used for similar things at other purposes. There are nothing for example one teacher used to use a triple bar equal to sign to indicate A is defined as B, another teacher used to indicate it like A with a D or a delta, I think he used to write like delta here but it looked almost like a triangular delta is B. So sometimes A is defined as B is written like this, but I can keep away from symbolism and say A is defined as B, perhaps that would be the neatest way of doing things, over to you. Thank you very much sir, as you are saying now, if you happen to write to our point of understanding you or you yourself a greater book and when you are writing book kindly take care of these things sir, thank you sir, over and out sir. NIT Trichy, over to you now. Sir my question is with respect to CL 2, in this the assumption given is P naught 1 bar T naught 300 Kelvin, to determine the maximum work we have to determine H naught and S naught, so whether we have to consider a pressure 1 bar or temperature 300 Kelvin to determine the death state, so whether we have to consider these as a compressible fluid or incompressible fluid, so whether we have to use P naught condition or T naught condition to determine the maximum work for determining H naught and S naught, over to you sir. Exercise CL 2, CL 2 it is not very emphatically mentioned, but it says determine the maximum useful work that can be obtained when the following systems undergo the specific change of state and we have in the first one, remember it just says 1 kg of ordinary water at a given say 10 bar saturated liquid and final state is P naught 1 bar T naught 300 K, I think you measure mentioned enthalpy, now when you say that 1 kg of ordinary water we are looking here at closed systems, so W useful max when you take a system from the initial state to the final state, the final state will be here now the state 0 that is the so called dead state at P naught T naught, so this will be E naught plus P naught V naught plus sorry minus T naught S naught minus you are the initial state, the initial state will be whatever is the given I will just write E plus P naught V minus T naught S and I will take the mass outside, so when I take the mass outside I will have minus M, this will be E naught which I will write as U naught because I will assume them that at rest plus P naught V naught minus T naught S naught minus U plus P naught V naught minus T naught S naught minus U plus P naught V minus T naught S, now after having written let me take say the part 3, here U, V and S are property of the initial state properties of steam at because it is 3, they are at 100 bar 600 degree C and U naught V naught S naught are properties of steam or whatever is the phase it is in at P naught T naught that is at 1 bar 300 K, here also properties of steam here we know that 100 bar 600 degree C it will definitely be steam, but I think in case of 1 it is obviously water in case of the Roman small one, I think that should explain once you consider it a closed system that issue will not come up, if I can modify that question and then I can convert it into something like this when actually that will be good, it is good you ask that question because I think in my next version I will have a CL 2A, so I will say CL 2 modified take 1 kg of steam steady state and change of state from the given state to P naught V naught P naught T naught in which case I will write that W dot the power obtained max will be equal to minus m dot H naught minus T naught S naught minus H minus T naught S and in case of to illustrate this completely in case of 3 H S naught minus H naught S naught minus S will be at what was the data given 100 bar 600 degree C and H naught S naught will be the properties at 1 actually I should write P naught equal to 1 bar and T naught equal to 300 K, I think that should explain you if you consider closed system, I think that as you showed it here, there is no place for H in here whereas, if you consider it as open system as I consider it in this modified form of the this thing if I say 1 kg per second of steam I think this at least from my page 1 kg per second was missing then you have this H naught coming into place H naught and H and remember this the I forgot to even close this bracket let me close it now, I think now it is complete. So, I hope you understand this over to you, one more question. Sir this is regarding the availability and exergy analysis of thermal systems here. So, I could notice several research papers on this topic, so how this kind of analysis will be useful for working engineers or practicing engineers especially for designing and testing of thermal systems over to you sir. I do not really know I have seen a number of papers actually my exposure to the in thermal engineering is restricted to mainly thermal power plants, boilers, furnaces, turbines, maybe to some extent gas turbine, but mainly steam turbines and heat exchangers of various kind. My exposure to refrigeration, cryogenic and air conditioning industry is that way comparatively very very poor, but in whatever industry exposure I have either when I was working there or through my consultation work, I have not come across any situation where exergy is analysis is used at the design stage. It is used just as a curiosity after the design is over, just to find out in a big power plant where are the causes of improvement because see although economics plays a role, the economics is driven by technology. So, one has to see which is the component which is producing the maximum amount of entropy or the one which is leading to the maximum amount of lost work and at least from a technical point of view it would make a significant contribution if that thing is reduced. Once you zero in on a few such components, then we look at the alternative, the better way of doing things and reducing the S dot P, the entropy production rate and then finally what is implemented and how is implemented and to what extent we reduce S dot P comes out of economics. So, finally it is a techno economic decision. Maybe things are different in the refrigeration and air conditioning industry because many authors I find are those who publish papers are involved with the liquefaction of gases or cryo processing or things like that. So, may be out there they have direct contribution from the availability and exergy analysis to their work. Over to you. Thank you sir, over and out. NIT-3C tells me that the condition which I was talking as 100 bar 600 degree C is actually 10 bar 600 degree C. So, whatever I correct myself this is not 100 bar 600 degree C, this is actually 10 bar 600 degree C and that means I need to correct it on the previous page also and let me put it there and I hope it gets aligned the way it was. Here also, I had written 100 bar. So, let me correct that 100 bar also to 10 bar. NIT-3C over to you. Good evening sir, practically is it possible to produce steam at 0 degree Celsius or otherwise ice at 100 degree Celsius over to you. Let us look at the T-S diagram in detail. We have 0.01 degrees C exact temperature of the triple point. From here the liquid vapor line goes like this, the solid vapor line I am exaggerating goes slightly to the left and up and this is the solid vapor line. This point is the triple point and since it is 0.01 degrees C, if you take say 0 degrees C it will be somewhere here. So, your first question was is it possible to have steam that is vapor at 0 degrees C? The answer is yes. At low enough pressures you will have steam out here at 0 degrees C you have steam, out here it is saturated steam, below that it is super heated steam, but that is at a very very low pressure, pressure below the triple point of water. About your question whether we can have solid at 100 degrees C that is ice at 100 degrees C? The answer seems to be no because if you hunt out equilibrium situations this line, the solid liquid equilibrium line goes northwest. So, it is only around the maximum temperature at which you will get an equilibrium ice is 0.01 degrees C, below that you will have the solid at lower and lower temperatures and above that also you will have solid at lower and lower temperatures as you increase the pressure. So, I think the answer to your first question is yes, the second question is no. One more question sir, how the parameters of deep waters C are calculated or measured during the design of underwater vehicles? Is it, I put the question in the module also, over to you sir. The question is how are the properties of deep sea water calculated? First thing, the deep sea water are calculated if at all you do experiments in laboratory experiments on properties of water including sea water and other liquids have been other important or interesting liquids have been calculated up to few tens of thousands of bars. The person to do this was P. W. Bridgeman, great contributor to thermodynamics including the philosophy of thermodynamics. Those who can should look up two books on physics by P. W. Bridgeman. One is known as the nature of physical theory, a small book. Another one is the nature of thermodynamics, a big book and you will find this typically in older libraries, you know old university libraries, modern libraries I do not think whether we have a copy even in our IIT libraries because this became out of print pretty early. But these are still being referred to and may be through Google books or something like that they may be available. These two are the books which one should read about from Bridgeman. But those who want to know about properties, property measurements at high temperature is book known as the physics of high pressure is a recommended. But for deep sea properties all you have to do is pressurize it and measure and out there we are interested only in the subcooled liquid properties. We are generally not interested in the saturation line and the superheated vapor zone. And if we are at it I might mention that the liquid vapor critical point is known for steam and is known for and has been measured and demonstrated for many other fluids. But I have not come across a single situation where the solid liquid critical point has been demonstrated. May be I am wrong but that is a matter of curiosity at least for me. Till a few years ago I used to regularly go on to the net and try to find out whether a solid liquid critical point has been demonstrated. Till at least about 2002 or 3 I used to do that after that I did not get time. I got distracted by other work, some administrative work also. So may be now that you mention it and now that I have mentioned it I have already made a note that today evening I should check that out. May be somebody has discovered it. Over to you. Sir this question is regarding the submission of assignment. Sir what is the mode of submission? Whether it will be in hot copy or soft copy? Whether we should post it in modal or submit to the coordinator? Over to you sir. This is about assignment. I will just make the following assignment today and may be I will put it upon modal. So let me just note down before I forget. One assignment is I do not want any paper submission. I want only a PDF submission and whether it will be emailed to me or emailed to some address or whether it will be uploaded to the model a site within model or to some other site that you will be informed in a few days. Because we are also learning some aspects of model which we were not familiar with yesterday. But one thing finally it will be a single PDF file.  One participant will have to submit just one single PDF file and that too by electronic means. So either you will email it or you will upload it somewhere. The details will be known to you in a few days. The PhD college wants me to write the names of the books on the whiteboard. Just a minute. The author of the book is Percy Williams Bridgeman. Nobel Laureate I think 1945 or 46. Just after the second world war. His celebrated books are Nature of Physical Theory. I spent some time early in the course talking about operational definitions and there is a chapter or two on Nature of Physical Theory in which the idea of operational definitions is very well explained. Nature of Physical Theory is a extremely readable book. You do not have to be a physicist. If you have taken 12 standard in science you should be able to appreciate that. The second book is Nature of Physical Theory is not very big, may be 100 pages of that order. Nature of thermodynamic and the third one is Physics of High Pressure. Maybe I will, if I have some links about Bridgeman I will put them on moodle. Valkan Sangly over to you. Sir my question is about availability of the open system. We have found that the equation Ws is equal to a minus b minus c. These are the terms. I am saying that the term a is q dot 1 minus t0 by t. That term itself indicates that it is a reversible work which is a maximum work. So why this is not called as an availability? Over to you. Again let me tell you that the words availability and exergy are not very properly defined and in many books you will say, you will see that in the closed system the term q into 1 minus t0 by t which would be the maximum useful work obtainable when you have available with you a heat interaction equal to q from a source at temperature t and you are allowed to reject it at temperature t0. This is the Carnot cycle work we know and that is the maximum possible work. There are books which say or which call this the availability of the heat at temperature, heat q at temperature t and also they call the q dot into 1 minus t0 by t which comes into our steady state open system calculations modeling as the exergy of a stream of heat of value q dot at temperature t. So what you say is being done. I did not include it because there are many such terms which is being used and there is no limit to it. Over to you. Okay sir, thank you. Over and out. SVNIT Surat, over to you. Hello, good evening sir. Can we consider exergy as a specific property of pure substance? Over to you sir. Notice I said in the morning that the availability and exergy are not pure properties. So because of the presence of p0 and t0 in them. So you cannot consider them to be properties of the system whether pure substance or otherwise. And in this course we have not used the term pure substance. We have only used the terms things like simple system rudimentary systems and complex systems. So do not be under the impression that availability and exergy are properties in their own right. They are not. They are functions of properties but they are functions of the situation in which we find the environment to be. Over. One more question sir. What are its practical applications of availability and exergy? Over to you sir. No great application except that we can determine the lost work or the lost power given certain conditions. And it gives us hints as to where the power is lost. And provides some idea not directly but it just gives us numbers. And then by looking at the numbers perhaps then we can see the cause of that is reversibility. That is about it. Over to you. Okay thank you sir over and out. K.K. Wagnashik over to you. Sir my question is why heat is a low grade energy and work is a high grade energy. In this course we never called heat a low grade energy nor did I call work a high grade energy. From the first law point of view heat and work are equivalent. That is essentially what first law says. The second law says that heat has to be treated with certain different treatment because it is related to temperature. It helps us define temperature levels using zeroth law and second law. So the treatment of heat is different from that of work. So I do not want to define heat as low grade energy and work as high grade energy. Both are energies in transit of two different kinds because they are two different kinds they are treated differently. So I cannot answer your question as why heat is called low grade energy and work is called high grade energy. I never called it that way. Over to you. Availability calculations for isothermal process. So will you sir I think it is CL5. Over to you sir. CL5 you have a system consist of 1 kg water substance that means in some phase is compressed from 12 bar 300 degree C to 20 bar in a quasi static isothermal process. So since it is talking of this thing let us consider it to be a closed system and on the PV diagram it goes from 12 bar 300 degree C to 20 bar. So it is in the superheated steam zone. So let us say that the isothermal may look something like this. So this is 300 degree C and we have an initial pressure of 12 bar a final pressure of 20 bar. So this will be the initial state 1 this will be the final state 2 the process will be like this. And let us consider it to be a stationary system so that delta E equals delta U and you apply the first law Q equals delta E plus W delta E is delta U delta U can be calculated from knowing the initial state and the final state read off I think both the values will be available to you in the steam tables plus now W requires integral 1 to 2 plus delta P dv and that means we are it is very clear quasi static isothermal process. So now for P dv I think you will have certain points in between so either you will use a trapezoidal rule or you will fit an equation over those points and integrate it but this will have to be determined by numerical integration or by a graphical method. So that gives you Q and this is the energy lost by the system from the initial and final state you will also get the delta S of the system. So from these two states you will get delta S and delta U and as well as if you want delta V and the initial state you will get delta S. This will be the first thing is let me see useful work done by the system is this minus P delta V. So useful work done by the system is this W minus P naught delta V delta V is what you have obtained here P naught is the ambient pressure and this W is this integral P dv that you have determined. Maximum useful work and lost work here you use the availability analysis I will write directly in terms of U now but remember that we have to write in terms of E and then go to U by that minor assumption that it is a stationary system U2 plus P naught V2 minus T naught S2 minus U1 plus P naught V1 minus T naught S1. P naught T naught are provided to us and this can now be written down as simply U2 minus U1 will be delta U as calculated in the previous slide plus P naught delta V as calculated in the previous slide minus T naught delta S as calculated in the previous slide. This will be the W U max and the lost work lost work will be W U max minus W minus W minus W minus and what is the cause of this lost work. If you look at the situation go back to the previous page you will look at the situation the situation is the system remains at a temperature of 300 degree C the environment is at a temperature of 30 degree C or 300 Kelvin which is about 20 almost 27 degree C very nearly. So, this heat loss which goes out of the system at 300 is absorbed by the environment which remains at 300 this is actually 570 K 570 K to 300 K it is a large temperature drop. So, it is the heat transfer across that large temperature drop which causes the entropy production and which is the which leads to this lost work. I think that explains it over to you. Thank you very much sir over and out sir. Sir I want to get idea regarding how to find out work done in exercise number F 2.10 how to find out work done assuming steam to be Van der Waals gas or to a part here says compare these values with those obtained by assuming steam to be Van der Waals gas. From the steam tables if you look at F 2.8 we have to hear read of the critical conditions for water substance and obtain the Van der Waals constant A and B and before that come to exercise F 2.4 where A and B are determined in terms of PC, VC and TC. You will notice that if we measure all three PC, VC and TC we have three equations but only two unknowns A and B. So, they becomes an over determined system. So, what is generally done is depending on how good the measurements are we select two of these. In case of steam although very good measurements of all three are available and steam is not really a Van der Waals gas. So, these equations are not really valid but I think what may be a good idea is to consider PC and TC and neglect that VC equal to 3B equation using PC and TC determine the values of A and B and then you get the Van der Waals equation for steam. Once you get A and B, so A and B for steam obtain using PC, TC for steam and then you get A and B. Using the relations in F 2.4, then notice that once you get this integral P dV, I am writing in terms of specific volume because the equation of state is in terms of specific volume 1 to 2 for a Van der Waals gas will be solve the Van der Waals equation for T. You have RT by V minus B minus A by V squared dV from 1 to 2 and if you integrate this. Now remember that ours is an isothermal process, isothermally at something. So, Van der Waals gas isothermal process. So, we consider T to be constant. So, this RT both come out of the equation, out of the integration. So, the first term will give you RT logarithm of V minus B. So, this is RT logarithm of V 2 minus B divided by V 1 minus V. The second one is minus A by V squared, A is a constant. So, minus dV by V the integration will be I forgot T. The integration will be A by V. So, plus A into 1 minus 1 over V 2 minus 1 over V 1. So, once you determine our A and B from our approximate Van der Waals model, you just put it into this equation substitute the value of R and T for steam and the initial and final specific volumes which occur here and here and you get your equation. This is work done per 1 kg. If the mass is different from 1 kg, multiply this by mass per kg that is what is asked in 2.10. So, it is specific work. So, you can what you integrate out or get from this expression itself is the work interaction over to you. Thank you, sir. Are you okay, Sumaiya? I cannot see anything except a sand storm over to you. Good evening, sir. Regarding the same problems F 2 10 and 2 9 pertaining to the previous question F 2 10 and F 2 9. Sir, in this for the ideal gas as well as for the Van der Waals gas, the expression for the work done, they are coming out as same whereas they differ if we follow the trapezoidal rule for integration. They differ by a large amount. They do not match whereas if we apply the, see this is our Van der Waals equation and if we apply the ideal gas equation also, the isothermal work of compression is in close agreeance whereas by trapezoidal rule there is a large deviation. This is one query. Why is it right? If I am right, I am doubtful, so I am asking the doubt. Am I right? If so, why is it so? Can you please explain? And sir, pertaining to problem F 2.9, the previous problem where for water, you have commented in that lecture that water does not behave as a good Van der Waals fluid or so if we have PCVC upon RTC equal to 3 by 8, that we have to prove but if you put for the critical values of water, it comes out to be much less than 3 by 8. So, the conclusion from F 2.9 is that water is not a good Van der Waals substance whereas the conclusion of problem F 2.10 shows that it is having good agreeance for isothermal work. So, can you please comment on it, sir? Whatever question is you, I do not have the detail solution with me just now but when you said that if you solve the, if you do the integration by assuming an ideal gas equation of state, you will get a reasonably good match. That is possible only if you do the following. See, for an ideal gas integral P dV under isothermal conditions ideal gas would be say 1 to 2 integral 1 to 2 P is RT by V dV. So, this makes it RT by V dV. L n V 2 by V 1. Now, remember that the equivalent relations for this are where you replace RT by either P 1 V 1 or P 2 V 2 and you replace V 2 by V 1 by P 1 by P 2 because these are all equivalent relations for an ideal gas. So, what I suspect is one of these. For example, at these conditions it is possible that the expansion or compression of steam is reasonably approximately hyperbolic and in that case if you substitute either P 1 V 1 or P 2 V 2 here, you are likely to get a reasonably good match but if you substitute RT as with R as you know the capital R divided by molecular weight of steam, I am not sure you will get that thing equal to either P 1 V 1 or P 2 V 2. In fact, P 1 V 1 may not exactly be equal to P 2 V 2 but substituting one of them in this equation may give you a reasonably good match and something not matching a Van der Waals gas even crudely does not mean that accidentally in some zone of the state space work done under isothermal condition will lead to a very great mismatch over to you. So, I think that is over for the day. We meet again tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock first for any questions and then we start the last topic cycle analysis. So, have a nice time for the rest of the day. See you tomorrow morning over and out for everyone.


Αυτό θα είναι το καλό τους βίνεις και τώρα θα ακούνε μπορώ να τους δείξω. Ευχαριστώ. Ευχαριστώ. Είμαστε στην Γερμανία. Είμαστε στο σύντομα. Αυτό είναι λίγο λίγο, σιότι είναι σημαντικό για το Βόρφγαν. Βλέπω λίγο λίγο. Θα είμαι και εμένα. Μαρλίμ Μπονίτσι, στον Παράθυρο κ. Μάλικα. Εύκολα. Πώς είναι ο Αίπρος. Να το είμαι. Ναι. Εύκολα. Ευχαριστώ. Ευχαριστώ. Ο Αίπρος μωρός καθώς σήμερα, το γιατί να πω στους δυο λεπτές, που Bennett προσπαθούθηκε η Ελλάδα για το Βόρφγαν. Πολλοί με τον Παράθυρο κ. Μπορεί να πω και να πω τα δυνατότητα. Αλλά, νομίζω, είναι πως αυτογραφόνοι, που we will also reflect on the last speech by Prime Minister, the Tsipras, Αυτό was, again, a very clear political stuff. The two letters, the first one consisted of basically two main proposals, one to ask for an extension. Of course, we are beyond that point and we also made that clear yesterday. And secondly, to start talks on a new program, new financial support from the ESN. The second letter basically said that Greece could, is prepared to accept the last proposal by the institutions, but with a number of changes which I will ask the Commission to reflect upon. I think we need to hear from the institutions how they assess the letters, but also the situation, the political situation at the moment in Greece. And then I will turn to Yannis to further explain what the situation actually is. But as agreed yesterday, the Commission would, with the others, look at the letters first. So, Valdis, are you in the call? With Pierre. Pierre, hi. Could you respond to the letters and how you see the current situation? Okay. Since yesterday, the circumstances have obviously changed. Greece is now in areas to the IMF following a non-payment and the EFS program has expired. The Commission responds to the non-payment to the IMF, are there to, it's responsible to propose reaction to number states under the reclone passivity. I read that close has done the same for the SSF. And to discuss that this morning in the collage, and with the agreement of the Commission today, we recommend that member states reserve their rights to make a decision once there is more clarity on the situation. Yet today, Yannis, you asked the institution to prepare an assessment of which he proposed amendments to the list of prior actions published on Sunday. And this has been done on the basis of yesterday's letter. And the views I will outline are shared by these three institutions, but of course everybody can express. Firstly, I must underline that the document published on Sunday relates to discussions on the expansion of the EFS program. Moreover, the roasting situation circumstances, plus the request for a new two-year program, which will involve larger financial needs, means that changes will be needed compared to the reform package which was previously envisaged. Any new ESM program would of course have to be fully in line with the provisions of the ESM Treaty. As a general remark on Greece's proposals, many of them, from our point of view, lack clarity and specificity. So further discussions with the Greek authorities will be needed to fully assess their impact. Our teams have not yet had the chance to do this. Some of the individual proposals could have merits as part of a comprehensive package. A proper assessment is nonetheless required in the fiscal, financial, or EMS aspects to make sure that any proposals which we can... Have entered the conference. If I look more specifically at the proposals in order, first on VAT, the proposal to keep the VAT discount for Ireland goes in the wrong direction, not only compared to the proposals of the institutions, but also earlier proposals of Greek authorities clearly not view it backtracking. In addition to lower fiscal yield, the proposal would represent a missed opportunity to simplify the VAT system, because a large administration is required to administer these discounts. On fiscal structural measures and pension, the government is proposing longer-facing periods for a number of the measures. For example, the elimination of nuisance changes on the ECAT social top-up to be credible. This could be a way. We need to clarity on when reforms will be legislated and implemented. We need to be open to implementing, but not to legislating later phase-out of ECAT, provided compensating measures are found. On the labour market, the proposal also deviates from the proposal of the institution. And finally on the product market, the letter is more specific on some reforms compared with the Greece's early proposals, but they are less ambitious than the institution's proposals. So more explanations should be given on proceeding with these measures. For example, in response to recommendations of the OECD on the competition toolkit, we have not been able to evaluate some of the proposals that have not been discussed in the so-called process group. The proposal to split any electricity transmission company into a separate legal entity under state majority ownership also needs further careful scrutiny. To sum up, I would say that at first sight, the measures proposed would not be sufficient to meet the agreed fiscal targets. We would need further clarity on a number of the ideas enclosed in order to accept them properly, as some of the measures have not been discussed before in the process group. But there are some progress here and there, especially on the pension area, and the commission stands ready to continue working along with the other institutions on a credible reform package for Greece that reflects the change situation. Lastly, following yesterday's Greek request for a new EASEM program, we are preparing the risk assessment proposal and we stand ready to prepare an assessment of EASEM for EASEM program and give us the mandate to do so. Obviously, the recent speech of the CoA minister tends to give also some invitations on when this could be done. If you'd be in the call, then what? Yes, I'm here. Good evening. You want to comment on the two letters and where we stand in your perspective? Yes, thank you, Jeroen. Let me first apologize on behalf of Mario, but we have a governing council going on as we speak. First, let me agree with Pierre that the revised list of prior actions submitted by the previous authorities is weaker than the proposed role of the three institutions. So further discussion will be warranted if your group wants to explore the seven new further. We also must be aware that the circumstance of the environment has changed. Yes, can you hear me? Is the IMF in the call? Can you hear me? You are still hearing me? Maybe I'm the problem. No, you're right. I can hear you. What is this? What is this? Okay, okay. So first point, the proposals are weaker than the proposals of the institutions. Second, the environment has changed due to the further delay in the implementation of the measures. The proposed approach to the economy through the term or the last days. So this will need to be taken into account when calculating the work projections and also the bank recapitalization requirements in the new program. So when you combine the two facts, this result in larger financing needs and the work that is being done. So I'm just saying that the proposals can be explored further, but as they stand, they widen the fiscal gap and also the environment around it has changed and both the factors combined lead to larger financing needs and the work in the SSA. That said, we understand the discussions to fine tune the proposals are still going down at the technical level and as Pierre said, we stand fully ready to continue working. I have two additional remarks. So the first additional remark is that a third program cannot be limited only to a little fire action. So the proposal of the institution was meant to conclude the review. It was not meant to serve as a basis for an entire program. So of course additional work would be needed to build a fully-fledged third program. And the second remark is that it is essential in our view that the great government commits to service all its financial obligations fully and timely consistent with the Eurobook statement of the 20th of February and the wording of the letter is not so reassuring in that respect. It says that the government is committed to service its external debt but ensures the availability of a good economic growth and social provision. Thanks Benoît. Yames Varoufakis did respond on that last point in yesterday's call. Can I turn to the IMF? The letters that came in and the current situation. Thank you very much. I would like to apologize to the nine directors who have been at the board with the on-greens right now. Let me explain how we see it. We also have some technical difficulties so I did not hear what Benoît had to say. I heard what Shira said and I am the world agreement director. We certainly welcome that the authorities have moved to the right direction in the number of areas but overall the proposals fall short in the sense that they are not consistent with the agreed targets and then be wrong and therefore we think that there is a... We need further discussions we need further clarification we need to see the details and we need to discuss all the issues and we can of course ready to do so and welcome that there is a new dialogue but we are not there. Thank you. Certainly the understatement of today. Thank you, Jerome. I agree with the institutions. Could you also say something on the discussion about preserving our position as creditors? Yes, of course, that I can do and here we discussed in the EWG before this call. I sent a letter this morning to Tomas Vida in non-payment to the IMF so that our board of directors can take the appropriate action. We agreed that it should happen on Friday. I recommend in my letter that we should reserve our rights because that seems to be the most appropriate course of action for the next few days given the uncertainties. There is nothing in our treaty but we have no long-term preservation of rights can not we agreed in the EWG that it would be reviewed on an ongoing basis at least once a week the EWG would review it or more frequently if necessary and I think there was a cost consensus to move in this direction. Thank you. I would first like to turn to Janos Varopakis if he has a call to ask him to explain not so much the letters or you can of course make remarks on those but the present political situation Yes, thank you Jeroen. Thank you. Yes, hello, I hope you can hear me. Can you hear me Jeroen? Yes, thank you. Right, let me begin with a few comments on the proposed prior actions of the good government which were submitted to you which now the institutions have had a chance to look at. I believe they were also discussed in the Euro working group just prior to this teleconference. We believe that the SLA changed the prior action amendments that we are proposing fall well within the maximum flexibility of the MOU process as described repeatedly to us by the institutions. Very briefly let me mention the eight points which are pertinent here. One concerns the discount on VAT of the islands but it is our estimate and I believe the institutions agree on that estimate that maintaining that discount along the lines of also what happens on island complexes everywhere else in Europe including the Canary Islands and so on that the fiscal impact will be about 340 million of maintaining this discount. We have proposed equivalent measures that pertain to tax on real estate rents as well as a very small increase in corporate tax. The second point of difference the second amendment concerns the request the requirement that individual business owners should advance immediately 100% of their tax payments we have shifted that from 2016 to 2017 in order to soften the blow to them. The phasing out of diesel tax subsidies for farmers we would like again to have a glide path leading to that in 2017. On the question of pension reform both regarding the secondary pensions as well as the CAS the Solidarity rather small add-on to the lowest of the low pensions we are again in tune with what the institutions are requesting except that again we are recommending requesting a longer period of adaptation as far as product markets are concerned we would like to add here that the Greek government as is probably known to most colleagues has entered into a firm collaboration with the OECD the Secretary General of the OECD and his staff have committed to a joint program with Greece for creating, designing implementing and monitoring the implementation of many more product market reforms and other kinds of reforms like for instance anti-corruption procurement reforms and so on and we would like these to be considered very positive steps on our government in order to pursue the reforming process which everybody wants to see being incorporated in Greece Finally a couple of more points I won't tie you more than is necessary we had certain objections from the ministry of maritime affairs regarding ferry transportation on security and safety grounds and finally the question of the admin, the electricity sector reform where we are proposing that it is split from the PPC but that it is not privatized this is the final change amendment that we are recommending again let me say that we believe that these amendments fall well within the realm of flexibility which is part and parcel of the review process but we are going to comment on the political situation let me be succinct on that and to the point the referendum was called because we felt as a government that we did not have a mandate to answer the institutions called to accept this SLA and the particular financing package as it was given to us we said we are going to put it to the Greek people next Sunday who are the final arbiters of such decisions again let me repeat what I said yesterday we are fully committed and absolutely determined to implement the verdict of the Greek people on Sunday so if the yes vote wins we will do whatever it takes in order to make sure that the institutions proposals of the 25th of June the institutions feel like amending them we will accept these amendments as well will be signed, sealed and delivered within a very very short space of time the speech by the Prime Minister today was a speech which was meant to say one thing and that is that the concern of the government is that whatever prior actions we undertake must be sustainable there must be prior actions that are consistent with the reforms that Greece needs and must be embedded in a program whose financing component is giving us hope not just us but to investors, to consumers to the markets that Greece will be out of the woods but also the course of the agreement that we are signing thank you Can I make a few remarks I think the question of the extension of course has passed the old program as well therefore also the validity of the proposals that were on the table by the institutions have gone to this extent that they were meant to come to a positive review of the old program the old program has gone it has not been finished there will not be a positive review specifically in terms of the request for a new program of course as Greece is a member of the Eurozone and of the ESM we will take it into consideration those proposals will then be of use but the key question now is given the political circumstances and each Prime Minister again today whether we should undertake any action on that request at this point or await the referendum in Greece who would like to respond to the letters and the political situation Thank you very much I think you have very well explained the situation there was a short program it is now finished and we are talking about an element that will allow us to negotiate a new program from this point of view the proposals that were made by Greece in one or another letter they are useful to us Παγγύριο Ευρών I think you have very well summarized the situation there was a program that was done away and now this program is finished so what we are talking about now are elements for the negotiation on the future program and from this point of view the proposals by the Greek authorities are part of what can be used for that The question that was asked us today was to know if the political context was sufficiently modified to allow us to give a political message to the future negotiations The question that was on the table today is has the political context being sufficiently modified I mean, sufficiently different or has to send right now a positive political signal to the future negotiations We have been working with many contacts to make sure that this political context can be modified enough to allow a positive vision today in Eurogroup I just note that this political situation continued to be the first UNIFF that the respect is of course not been modified and therefore it is not possible today to give positive signals to the future negotiations We have been, I mean, a number of us have worked quite hard with lots of contacts with all stakeholders to work towards changing the political context sufficiently that we could have a positive political expression today at the Eurogroup One page, and not only taking into account the speech by Prime Minister Tsipras with fully respecting what he said is that it doesn't lead to a sufficient modification of the political context So from there on, it's not possible to have this positive expression from the Eurogroup today So I finished I'm finished Okay, thank you Other colleagues? You are? Good evening to everybody I would like to make three remarks First of all, given the situation I described I think there is indeed at this point in time given the referendum nothing really to negotiate about Secondly, with respect to the referendum I think that the argument that is so often repeated now that the Greek government does not have a mandate to do this negotiation is really running away from the responsibility of an elected government And with respect to the argument that a yes vote would be implemented by this government I repeat what I said in earlier meetings I found this to be really incredible as a state of play Now, my third point would be that basically we are now in any case in a very different world than we were one or two days ago First of all, the program has expired irrevocably and Greece is secondly effectively in default now Moreover, the economic and financial conditions of the country have substantially further deteriorated not least because of the backtracking by the Cyprus government on what had been achieved under the second program So, and I conclude whatever has been on the table in terms of proposals and measures needs to be revisited in light of this entirely and fundamentally different situation Thank you Thank you, all the colleagues You're on media leash Can I ask again? You're on? Thank you Hello everyone I just wanted to say that listening to what has been said by the institutions and also by some of the public our position is that we fully respect the decision that the Greek government calls for a referendum I mentioned that for last week and therefore we should wait for the outcome of this referendum before we decide what to do from then on and I'm not sure whether this is necessary at this stage but I would like to say that we agree with a recommendation by our regulations on the reservation of rights Thank you The reservation of our rights at the end I believe I was quite strong consensus in the EWG on this so maybe we can just come back to that in the end If anyone would feel different than the proposal from Claude Wrigley then they might express it Who else can I give the floor? Louis? How are you? You know very short I would like to ask Giannis whether it's correct that Mr. Tsipras has said today that he offered a no vote in the referendum this Sunday and that this no vote means pressure on creditors I would like to respond Yes, Jeroen We all know how negotiations unfold We are often told in the Eurogroup with the Greek side Greek representation that X, Y or Z parliament does not permit our colleagues to enter into a discussion about matters which are of absolutely important to the sustainability of the Greek program like for instance the funding issues Remember the issue that I raised last week in Brussels about dipping into the HFSF fund in order to pay the S&P bonds of July and August We consider that to be highly problematic regarding the bank recapitalization program but we were told that a number of parliaments have prevented colleagues from even entering into such a discussion So the notion that a sovereign body whether it's a parliament or a people who vote through a referendum exert pressure in the negotiations amongst ourselves in the Eurogroup is not unheard of it is part and parcel of what we do and this is what Prime Minister Tsipras said Thank you Thank you very much No for the comments No We don't still right here Peter, go ahead So now we see the situation the Greek government is asking for a new program but on the basis of proposals that it's typically campaigned against in the referendum it's really a dedicated environment So therefore I cannot imagine to discuss the S&P before the referendum is over That's clear about the support of the Johan and Morales Thank you Other colleagues At this stage it's inevitable that we wait for the referendum although to be frank if there is no victory I'm still wondering it is a no to watch since of course the initial referendum but instead of proposals which is now in a way or the other beyond our shoulders Number one Number two as someone has already said the new proposal the new request from the Greek government is about an ESN program which is of course as you have mentioned your own different in terms of density features and requirements than the set of measures whether there is anything more precise we can attach to yes no vote Is it a yes no vote to a new ESM is it a yes no vote to the old measures to yes to the new measures this in any case whatever the result of the referendum will be adds to confusion and does not provide credibility in any negotiation that we will engage Yes thank you your own clearly it was Pierre Carlo You asked what would a no be in aid of no to what Well firstly the ballot paper is very explicit it refers to the 25th of June documents that were tabled and which were offered to the Greek government from the institutions by the institutions our recommendation of a no is not so much legally concerns this particular set of documents which may or may not be on the table but if you want me to answer in terms of the spirit of the exercise we are saying no to an agreement which in our estimation and I think in the estimation of many people is simply not sustainable given the funding package that accompanies it given the debt sustainability analysis that is accompanying it and given the fact that where we to agree to those proposals we would have reviews every month up until November and in parallel to those reviews we would have to have another negotiation in order to discuss a third program by the end of November this would create an unsustainable agreement as far as we are concerned so we are recommending to the Greek people to say no to that a new program with the ESM that can be agreed to on the basis of the SLA and the prior actions that are on the table as we speak would be utterly sustainable and of course to that we would say a big yes after the referendum on Sunday Can I ask the Greek government to have a mandate to request for an ESM What Carlo, we do We do In response to an early question Why don't we make our minds up as a government Why are we saying that we don't have a mandate What we said explicitly was we did not have a mandate to sign on an agreement which we considered to be unsustainable both in the short run and in the medium run but to request a new ESM program to be sustainable we certainly have a mandate for that Can I first make one remark in terms of the process in your group it needs to be very clear there was no agreement the only thing there was were prepared documents by the institutions which they could support which were prepared with a view of coming to an arrangement or an agreement in your group was never achieved there is no agreement to put to the Greek people Wolfgang, go ahead That's exactly what I want to say it's a situation therefore I share the confusion of Pierre Carlo because the Greek government takes place on a yes or no on proposals which are not still longer valid but the precondition for this proposal is over therefore we are in a totally new world and we are not only in a new league because ESM project is different but we are also in a totally new world in touch because we need a totally new program and of course the situation has not been improved since we drafted the last program it has to be in mind that I share the view of all this which I have said before the referendum nothing can be divided into your group nor the process I'm beginning to see a common ground for conclusion are there any colleagues who want to speak Pierre Carlo, this is Harry Go ahead, Ars Even though I do share one or almost all of the comments the colleagues let me say this the Greek people are feeling a sense of desperation and they are expressing in every conceivable way their wish to see Greece stay in the Euro and to maintain the ties with the EU So even though everything that has been said is actually correct, valid I do feel that we owe it to the Greek people who have in touch the mobilize in an effort to see Greece remaining in the Euro to send a positive message even out of this Euro group in the direction that we can't initiate the process of re-examination of the Greek request I think we should all agree that there is no way for Greece to effectively remain the Eurozone without an agreement on the third program Definitely that cannot be agreed today Definitely as Benoit has said these are the facts that require a fully-fledged MOU and not just a list of high reactions no disagreements but at the very least we could send the positive message that the request will be examined the process of negotiating the details will be initiated because very simply I think this will this will give hope this will give hope to the Greek people and will probably help what is a common cause Any other colleagues? Yerun, might I interject for just one moment? Yanis Sure, I just wanted to say that in response to your comment we did not put an agreement to the Greek people, you are right on the 25th of June there was no agreement but there was a very specific proposal and the time as you the clock as you were saying and everybody was saying and I was saying was running out we put that proposal to the Greek people if the Greek people say yes then we have an agreement along those lines now, the fact that these proposals after we called for a referendum might have been withdrawn or expired afterwards well this is an important point but it is not a crucial point because the proposals that we are discussing now the SLA well it's very close to what was put on the table by the institutions is a prospect of a new program which is a lot more palatable and sustainable that Greece will stay in the euro is a foregone conclusion as far as we are concerned our position, our place in the eurozone and in the European Union are non-negotiable and no on Sunday will mean that we are going to have to speed up the agreement leading to agreement to an agreement that is mutually advantageous and which we feel that we have a mandate to see through and which we can look at you in the eyes and say we are going to implement it if we were going to say yes to the proposals of the 25th of June we couldn't do that because we do not believe that even with the best will in the world it wouldn't be sustainable and just one last point the colleagues questioned our credibility when we say that in case of a yes we shall implement the agreement please do not question our credibility on this we are committed and under constructed democrats and if the Greek people on Sunday deliver a yes vote we shall do as I said whatever it takes to implement that yes even if it means changing the configuration of the Greek government we will try and formulate our conclusion I think that we have to realize that the current situation is that the whole program has expired or put on the table last weekends by the institutions were never part of an agreement in the Eurogroup they were never put to the Eurogroup for me because there was no agreement and the Eurogroup never discussed financing needs sustainability etc. that again has to be very clear and therefore what the Greek government has put into its people is hard to understand the request to extend the whole program of course is no longer valid, no longer realistic the proposal to get a new financial support from the ESM will be taken into consideration will start procedures but given the current political situation and as the Greek government says it's lack of mandate we must await the referendum on Sunday I will draft a short letter along with responding to the two letters at least formally to the one letter that I received taking into account that there is also a second letter specifically on the proposals and letter I listened carefully to the institutions and Pierre said some may have merit some are fake and deserve more clarity but some are also weakening the proposals I think it was Benoit who said they widen the fiscal gap they worsen the DSA and they create larger financial needs I will just take note of that of those comments from the institutions we will not take any decision nor on the old proposals from the institutions nor from these amendments on the Greek side they can become of use part of a further talks but that is for consideration after Sunday merit has made the point that we should also give off a positive message to the people of Greece and I think that is possible but making also very clear that we are no longer negotiating with the Greek government and we are no longer asking the institutions to negotiate with the Greek government between now and the referendum I think the Greek people also deserve to have clarity of what is actually happening at the moment and I don't think the Greek Prime Minister today has given that clarity in his speech we should give that clarity and we will be no further talks we will not ask the institutions to further discuss the proposals until after the referendum that would be in my mind the outline of the letter and the communication after this call I am open to your comments I am open to your comments I am open to your comments Jeroen, can I just interject for a sec Giannis I didn't hear any of our colleagues suggest that there should be no further discussions negotiations, discussions I think that given that this government whether the answer of the Greek people the verdict of the people will be a yes or no is committed to discussing the SLA the prior actions you have them in front of you we heard from the institutions that they are a positive step in the right direction even if they are considered by some of the institutions to be weak or to contain bits and pieces which are not welcomed by them nevertheless and also taking up on what Michelle was saying it's clear to us that it would be a good idea for everyone involved to continue finding common ground on the possibility of a new ESM program and it just doesn't seem to me that your it's consistent with what I heard from many of our colleagues and in particular if I remember correctly Pierre Moscovici said something along the lines of what I am saying now that we should continue to discuss with the institutions in particular to assess the fiscal aspects of what our proposals and so on and so forth so I don't think that your wrap up is a genuine wrap up it's your opinion which is of course highly respected but that's another matter I of course disagree I listened carefully to Pierre who said that the committee stands ready on a request of your group to further work etc but at this point we will do such a request to the institutions and my proposal is quite clear to what colleagues have said but I am open for more comment Wolfgang I would like to play the role that fully agree with your summary the example was exactly what we have discussed and in fully in line with your aspect Pierre speaking I would like also to support you because it's true that I said that we are ready to do the job any time you ask and you do ask but I also said that due to the new situation we all understand when this could be done and share your analysis Thank you, other comments? Well, your moment Michel Thank you I agree with your comments with the political context that has not changed after the intervention of the First Amendment there were discussions during which we decided to make sure that this political context is modified but not modified these discussions have no meaning but they are very true Just a word, Geron I agree with your conclusion I take into account again the political context which hasn't changed following the speech by Prime Minister Tigras there were discussions on going to change this political context it hasn't so there is no point to continue them until the referendum has taken place The propositions that were brought by the Prime Minister are obviously propositions that must be considered but we will consider them when the Greek government has issued a referendum we will be asked for a new programme it will be a first base for our discussion but today there is no more discussion until the referendum and the Greek people will be excluded The propositions that were put on the table by the two letters by Prime Minister Tigras of course we should consider them and we will do that but we will do that only when the Greek government after the referendum will make a new format for a new programme and those letters will be first elements for the discussion but right now and until the referendum until the Greek people will have had their say there is no more discussion Any other comments? Just for the record I want to say that I fully support the conclusion that you laid down Thank you Me too Jerome Please, thank you Good job here Good job You have my support I support your conclusions Peter, I would like to support you also Thank you I support your conclusion too Jerome Really I support your conclusion too Thank you Jerome Michael I support your conclusions too Jerome I support your conclusion too I support your conclusion too Thank you Hello Jerome Until the next meeting Go ahead We fully support We presume that there is a lot of support I will take into consideration and try to also express it in communication or a feeling our understanding our empathy for the desperation of the Greek people at the moment something of the words that Harris used So I think we need to make that clear also and I will send a short reply along the lines that I mentioned to Prime Minister of Greece Let me before we come to a close of this meeting make two points on the point of reserving our rights under the GLF the Greek loan facility and the EFF Given the fact that we took on the non-payment to the IMF and recent financial developments I think we can confirm in principle our decision to reserve our rights under the Greek loan facility and the EFF for the time being and follow the procedure that Clauss and Adelaide have proposed Thank you I agree that for the time being means that we had to make some changes after the referendum Yes I think that is also what Clauss was referring to They cut their margin more than some Americans and they are all running now I think we can wrap it up for now I want to thank you all for your contribution One more point I want to make there is a worrying sentence in the first letter about Greece's commitment to service its external debt So I will also put in my letter a reference to what the Greek authorities agreed on on the 20th of February There are the Greek authorities in that zero group statement reiterated their unequivocal commitment to honour their financial obligations to all their creditors fully and timely I think it is very important absolutely clear how we see that commitment Just a second This is Yannis Let me reiterate what I said yesterday in our conference that we are very happy to have this particular sentence amended as required to include timely as well as fully regarding the meeting of our obligations to our creditors What can we do about this? I was still reiterated I don't think you can object to that Thank you Thank you for joining us We will await the outcome of the referendum Thank you Thank you