My name is Loree Linder. I started with, I was born in Eagle Point. My husband was born in Eagle Point also. And I ran for council first in 1984. And I was always interested and I went to council meetings and stuff. I had a pretty good idea of what was going on for a while. And I became kind of disgruntled with a couple of things. So I decided to run for the council first. This town was just important. I mean, I had a lot of friends. I lived out of town. I was born here but I lived out on Agart Road still in Eagle Point address for a long time before George and I were married in 1971. And we bought this house in 1973. But my mom and dad lived across the street. George's brother lived across the street from my mom and dad. And it wasn't a very big town. You couldn't go out to eat without seeing. I miss that. Everybody was your friend. Everybody knew if you were in trouble or had a problem and it wasn't through Facebook or the computer. It was people knowing people. The fact that my brother and his family were killed and they weren't found for six months. That was a really difficult time and the people stood behind us so much. So I ran for council and I tied. And the charter at that time said that a tie was broke by a drawing of lots. And so we had a former mayor who always came to the council meetings. And he always handed out dumb-dumb suckers to the council when he came in. And I wasn't on the council yet but I was at the meetings and so when it came up that we had tied and how were they going to break the tie. Somebody suggested we put two dumb-dums in a box and hold the box up and whoever, we put a red one and a green one and whoever gets the green one breaks the tie. So it was a big joke that I was the dumb-dumb that got the dumb-dumb. And that's how I originally got on the council. And I served two years on the council before I ran for mayor in 1986. And it was in 1986 that we passed the tax base, 86 or 87. I think it was 86 because my grandson was born in Eureka and I was down there calling up here on election to see if we had passed it. So those were a couple of interesting things that were... So Stephanie was elected mayor? Stephanie had been elected mayor and I got newspaper clippings that would tell me that I'm old. I can't remember exactly when she resigned as mayor and it was kind of a hassle too. And so we appointed Rose Graper as she wasn't on the council or anything. She was just a citizen and she had been on the council before to serve as mayor till the end of Stephanie's term. And then I ran for mayor at the end of Stephanie's term. Was it a close election? No, not really at all. I'm trying to think who I ran against, good lord. Because you were the third woman in a row. Right, but actually the fourth with Rose being appointed. So anyway that's when I started as mayor with a lot of big ideas. I got the Christmas decorations done which doesn't mean anything now but it was all done with no taxpayer dollars. And it brought a lot of pride to a lot of people that helped put them up every year. Now the city has a bucket truck and puts them up. And I think that the main street and what they've done with the lights and I just think that's incredible. I give them so much credit for the vision to do it when they had the money to do it. Well I felt like we needed a tax base that the city would live within because every year they had to go to the voters for the budget to pass the budget. And I felt that the reason that it hadn't been done is because people felt like there was waste, whether there was or not. They felt like there was waste and these were people that had lived here a long time. And a lot of them were upset when they removed the tax base. And it was really hard for the people, the police department, everybody to plan when they didn't know whether it was going to, didn't know if it was going to do life first. Whether you were even going to have a police department or anything. So that was one of my goals, was to pass a tax base that was reasonable and have enough, I guess, integrity to say, I think we can live within this and it shouldn't be raised and it has never been raised since. The evaluation and the growth has supported the tax base and so I walked, well we split it up with a council and myself visiting every house, explaining what we were working for and why. I have to say it was mostly me at the time because it was hard for other people to get out and Bill Kurtz visited a lot of people. Anyway, in 1986 we passed a new tax base and that was something that was important to me and I think the way, I think we did it about right because the growth has supported it. Right now the fire district costs more per thousand than it was costing for the city with their own fire department. I mean I realize times have changed and all that but I think the city has kind of kept pace with the growth and been able to live within that tax base. And they've taken, there's a percentage that they can take every year but they haven't had to pass another one. Let's put it that way and I think that's a good thing. And I can't remember exactly, they assessed every house integral point. I can't remember how much money to hook into this regional sewer but they never did hook into the regional sewer. As a matter of fact, later, yeah we won't talk about that but anyway I felt that that money should go back to the people that paid in until they did have something to hook up. And I was probably really ignorant and naive but it just didn't seem right to me that they took, and there were a lot of people that felt that they put it, I think they put it on our water bill. That they put, took the money but they never hooked up and I want them to refund the money and they did eventually. That was probably one of the biggest things that I was disgruntled about. The rest I really felt like, you know, if people pitched in and did things themselves, the tax rate wouldn't have to go up. That we'd never had, we'd have one Christmas decoration over the top of the, right in front of the Old City Hall. And I wanted to see this decorate for Christmas and Shirley Oswald, I went to the Community Association then and asked for support. And Shirley Oswald at the flower shop started making swags to hang on the, on the pose. And I made stockings, big stockings, I mean they were pretty chancy but we were decorating anyway and there was a lot of community involvement. And I had worked for Bennett Dispatcher for United Telephone before that and had a pretty good rapport with the repairmen and stuff. And I talked them into hanging them with their ladder truck and stuff. And Jackson Electric, Sally Jackson was my very best friend. And they were willing to help and put their ladders up and hang things and stuff. And somebody contacted me from the Bear Creek Shopping Center that they knew that I was involved or whatever. Anyway, they contacted me and they were going to change their decorations and put up different decorations. And wanted to know if we wanted them. And I went down there and hauled every one of them home and they were, the big plastic bells they still use down around in Bobmore Park. There was about 5,000 feet of garland, plastic garland that was dirty and old and neat and all the bells needed. And I washed the garland in my bathtub and drug it through the house and they used to hang it on the front of the stores down in Great Ways Shopping Center. Moving the bridge had been brought to the council. My dates are going to be pretty shady because it had been brought to the council before I even ran for council. There was a group that wanted to move the bridge because at that time the bus barn was on this side of the creek. There was only one bridge across the creek. The school buses had to cross that bridge at the same time kids walking to school were crossing that bridge. It wasn't safe. And somebody, not me, had the idea that there was an opportunity to move that bridge and make it a pedestrian bridge and still save it and that maybe we could get enough grants and raise enough money to do the job. See, I lost it. It had been brought up and the council turned it down and said, No, the city didn't want to be involved in it or anything. So after I was mayor it was brought up again. I was on the bridge committee. We formed a bridge committee and Bud Bowling was on it and Sue Capellus was on it. Ralph Weinerger was on it. I was on it and it was brought before the council. And I'm a little bit shady on that because the city really at that point didn't have any money involved in it or anything. And like 4th of July celebration, everything there was. I was down in the street with a coffee can collecting donations or whatever. We did hit Harry and David, First Interstate, all of us kind of hit. Bud Bowling I knew no hit a machinery company out on the highway and they donated big. But we didn't really have enough money to do all of it. Ralph Weinerger ended up taking out a loan to finance to start. And it's hard for me to remember all the details of that. But it was pretty much done and then they were out of money. And Richard Vox, because they were having Richard Vox, there was something at the time that the city could act as its own contractor and not have to pay prevailing wage to and Bud Bowling agreed to it. And I think Reed Murphy pretty much donated everything that he did. And that's how we stretched the money to go further. And so the city at that point was involved. And some of the things I did as mayor, I wrote a thank you note to every donation that came in from on my own money. Every donation, if we had an address and it was a check, I wrote them a thank you. And I kept City Hall hours on Tuesdays. And that was a really neat thing because I got to really know the employees. We got to be really good friends, you know, because I was down there. I painted the city. She wasn't three-quarter then. Carmen Bernhardt's daughter was a pretty good artist. And we went down there one night and painted a Christmas scene on the front window of the old City Hall. And I had to stand on the desks and wash it off when it was Christmas was over. There was always a birthday I baked a cake for every city employee's birthday. Or if it was a council, I baked cookies. I mean, things were just different then. It was special. The friendships that I made, it was special. You also talked about the golf course. It was just in the planning stage, which basically, I think George was on the council when he filled in for, I think it was Ralph Barker. More when that was going on because any decision the city made was a quasi-judicial decision. And we couldn't be involved in the planning commission process or shouldn't have been. And shouldn't have been discussing anything other than what the developer was bringing before us. So I didn't have a lot of input or anything into that. I think after I was mayor is when most of that came before the council. I felt I supported it a hundred percent. Why did you support it? Because I could see growth happening that we weren't ready for as far as house building and the sewer system and the water system. And that we weren't ready for. And there's a beautiful orchard up there that if we're going to develop something that will feed the tax base and add value to the city, I'd rather see that property used for something that was going to bring people in that was going to do good for the city than put a bunch of houses up there that I didn't feel we were ready, that I didn't feel we had the infrastructure for and didn't feel. So I supported it basically philosophically very much. I didn't have a lot to do with any of the decision making about it. But I supported it then and I think it was a good choice. Was it generally the settlement in the town as well? At that time there wasn't a lot of sentiment brought up about it because it really wasn't coming before the council. A lot of the things that were coming before the planning commission were not all that well known at the time. So I can't imagine that most people didn't support it though because that was back in the day where we left the town the way it was. If you'd have told me that all the building that's gone on and going on now was going to happen, but it said no way. The infrastructure that's been added, the sewer lines and the water were now in the sewer district rather than having it go into a lagoon down and off the highway. We just weren't ready and I think that made the city ready to grow. Now that could be something that I'm not... No, I think it's grown pretty orderly. I think there's things that need attention. Basically, I'm kind of a... The impression we give people when they come in is really important. And we may come in by Ed Dayhacks and down there on that end of town where there's trailers and stuff set in there that are illegal and messes. And that's not in the city. And I really strongly think the counties should have taken a stand on that a long time ago. And I know Ed Dayhack. I've known him for years. And he's done a lot for the city. He did a lot for the bridge. But I hope he's 100 years old. I hope that the city will annex that in. I can understand why it's kind of an hard thing. He's 100 years old. He's a great supporter of the town. But it would have been easier if the county would have came in and settled that whole thing out there. But the county has not had the best record at a lot of that out on Biggin Brown Road and stuff that went on for a long time. I was in favor of White City being incorporated. And I still feel like rather than get the services the way they got them without the tax base and stuff, I still feel like it should be incorporated. But that's my personal opinion and has nothing to do with being mayor. It was awful. It was terrible. So many people from Eagle Point have been killed. My mom was killed on Highway 62. But that was after it was mostly completed. But you couldn't get them to do anything about it. And there was one developer in town that told me later that he got really upset with me. They were going to, if my memory serves me right, they were going to take money from the Highway Fund for something at Crater Lake. And I gave a speech before the Highway Commission that to make people drive through an obstacle course and put their lives in danger to get to Crater Lake, let's make it accessible and safe for people to go to Crater Lake. That was one of my arguments at the time. And a developer in town told me later, he said, I thought you were so wrong. I mean, we're talking a small time developer that nobody was going to want to move to Eagle Point with everything you were saying about the safety of the highway. And now I see you were right. That meant a lot to me. But it was blazing. A lot of things that just really hadn't been blazed. The mayor of Eagle Point, Donna Butchano was the first one, even though I totally didn't agree with her about biomass. But she was the first one that stepped outside of Eagle Point and started voicing her opinion about something. And she was passionate about it. And I respect her for... That probably set an example, even though I disagreed with the subject of, set an example for me that you couldn't be mayor and not be involved outside the city limits, whether it was at the state legislature or the transportation department or the Rogue Valley Council of Governments. And there wasn't a mayor's association at all at the time. I kind of put that together. And we all did it. I think we all did. I know I did. The mayor's hosted at a meeting. It might be a lunch or something. I'm pretty sure that some of them in their city paid for it. But I hosted it. I paid for it. I wrote up $4,000 one year, just in tax deductions for things that I had done. And there was no pay for the council. I think at that time the water bill was like about, basic bill was like about $15 a month. And you got your water bill paid. It was the only compensation that there was for being mayor or council. And I was good with that. I paid all my expenses. When I went to Salem to anything or anything that I did, I paid my own expenses. It wasn't as expensive as it is now or I wouldn't be able to. But I felt like it's, you shouldn't be serving. The word is service. That if you're not willing to give and maybe sacrifice a little bit to serve, that's not really service to me. And I felt like that's the way it should be at the time. And I was doing a lot of things that nobody in the past had really done that I should be willing to. And I could eat at McDonald's and drive my car to Salem. And, you know, when I became involved with the Rogue Valley Council of Governments, I went to the League of Cities conference twice that Rogue Valley Council of Governments paid for. And that was in Washington, D.C., which was an incredible experience for me to get to do. And I was pretty active in it at the time. Were you the only woman? Were there many women in government? In the Rogue Valley Council of Governments. Any of it? State level? Oh, state level. Yeah, there were some. Rogue Valley Council of Governments, I'm trying to, I'm thinking I was kind of, because it was basically made up of the cities in the county that belonged to Rogue Valley Council of Governments. I was a really strong pusher and advocate for following public meeting law and for educating yourself about public meeting laws. And they're pretty simple and they're pretty straightforward. And the laws about executive sessions and what can be discussed in executive sessions and those kind of things are what makes integrity in the organization complete, completely. And I was a real sticker about it. And when I saw that public meeting law after I was mayor had been violated and I knew what I went before the council and in my words from back then, nailed them on it. And I'm proud of that. More than specific things that I did, I feel like I never sacrificed my integrity for anything. I was raised that way and that was something that was really important to me. And back in my time as mayor and I don't know because I've been to a council meeting, I don't even know the people on the council. I knew Bob Russell and Leon when they were mayor and I had good relationships with them and still do. I think that's the role of the leader to make everybody know that they're not going to sacrifice their integrity and most people will follow it and they'll respect you for it. But I just think it's a really important precedent to set as a leader. I don't care if it's the PTA or the Historic Society or what it is, any government thing is there's public meeting laws and I think a lot of people aren't educated about and then they get, let's say, an argument on philosophy or whatever. I think that's what tends to make people talk about things that needed to be discussed, that were discussed in an executive session outside of an executive session and those kinds.  And I think this is kind of the subject that I did the Jackson County Administrator and I can't think of his name right now and he was administrator for a long time. I had a good rapport with him and when I was very first mayor I went in there to talk to him about something and he said, you know something that I've always done and people really liked him this was when he first came here that something that I've always done is I've always kept a journal during the week of what I did, who I saw, who I and turned it in to the well the county commissioners at the next meeting of what I had been doing in between and I thought that was the best idea ever and I did that from then on I used to have all the minutes of all the meetings and all of the, you know, my what I had done during that two weeks and sometimes it was just little funny things but sometimes it was things that never came up in the meeting that I had done or discussed with somebody or whatever that wasn't anything that I couldn't discuss but you wouldn't have discussed it because you were at the meeting doing business of the day right then and I don't know whether anybody has ever done it since but I think it built a rapport and I think it made them see that I thought it was a job and I was working at it you know, I haven't seen a lot that has bothered me since my time a little bit but I'd like to get positive to where we are now in comparison to where we were then and I don't think the answer is this was a hard lesson for me to learn that everything's important while you're there once you're no longer there it takes about twenty minutes for everybody to forget the things that were super important to you and that is not I think some of them stayed and well they have like the decorations and things have moved forward but it and it is time for new ideas but I really think you have to give credit that it's not about you it's about the ideas that move on and the traditions that you've started from your ideas other than that it's probably going to go in another direction and probably needs to it's not and those are things that I didn't really know what I was doing I just knew I cared a whole bunch that I loved this town that I loved what the people had done for me when I was in need and that I did the best I knew how to do at the time


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Alright, we come to this second lecture in the second module on measurements and since we are meeting after a few days of interval, we will have a quick recap of the first method that we had seen for measurement of surface tensions the ring method. Basically, here you measure the force which is required to detach a metal ring from the surface of a liquid and is one of the oldest methods used for measurement of surface tension and as we will see later of interfacial tensions as well. And what may be done is a wire ring connected to either an arm of a balance or to a torsion wire through a light weight beam could facilitate the measurement of this vertical pull required to snap the ring of the liquid. And at the point of the detachment of the ring from the liquid the vertical pull required would be equal to the total perimeter operative of the ring times the surface tension. And it becomes clear from this diagram that the total perimeter will be the total length of the wire times 2 because the meniscus in action is one on inside of this wire and the other on the outside. So, the perimeter is actually to be counted twice and we had seen that once we connect the ring to a balance it becomes this name tensiometer do not tensiometer. Equating that vertical pull F to twice 2 pi r times gamma we get the surface tension as F over 4 pi r and in view of the fact that the surface tension may not act vertically exactly vertically and the contact angle may not necessarily be 0 it would mean that we may have to use some corrections. One would have obviously ensure the 0 contact angle by gently flaming the platinum ring which is used for measurement of surface tensions, but the correction factor beta is still necessary and that would depend on the 2 radii the radius of the wire radius of the ring and the density of the liquid. The correction factors for standard rings used and one requires the apparatus to be calibrated with the help of standard tensions for pure liquids. It was here that we stop last night and we continue from alright we go into the measurement of interfacial tensions with the ring method. Basically same methodology could be used for measurement of interfacial tension with the ring method, but the only necessary requirement now would be that in this 2 liquid system the lower liquid should preferentially weight the platinum ring. If we take for instance the benzene water and carbon tetrachloride water systems as shown in this diagram you would have on the left benzene lighter than water floating on it and carbon tetrachloride which is much heavier than water sinking below it. So if this platinum ring which is prepared to be clean by gentle flaming if it is weighted by water and if you start with this ring within the lower phase water the pull required to snap off this ring from the interface will be giving you indication of the interfacial tension. So that is quite clear and very similar to the measurement of surface tension in a similar situation in an equivalent surface tension measurement system instead of benzene we had air. So the water would be trying to pull the ring inside against the vertical pull trying to snap it away from it. So at the moment of the snapping of the ring the vertical pull just would be able to overcome the surface tension force. Here the equivalent is interfacial tension force otherwise we have similar approach to writing the force balance and even the notations could be retained to be similar with different meaning. However if we take the carbon tetrachloride water system clean platinum ring will not be weighted by CCl4. So if we were to start with platinum ring submerged in carbon tetrachloride and if we were to look at the situation of the force balance at the time this ring comes out of the interface because now the platinum ring is initially in carbon in contact with carbon tetrachloride it would come out clean in water the interface will not be exert will not be able to exert its action towards retaining this ring in a position to the vertical pull required. So clearly if we have a situation like this then it is an indication that we have to do something about the ring right. So I suppose you have started thinking about what modifications we may have to make perhaps we should choose a different ring a ring which is made of stainless steel and weighted with silicone would make it oleophilic oil weighted and then we have the situation that we desire we start with the silicone coated steel ring submerged in carbon tetrachloride weighted by it and when it is attempted to snap it off from the interface will have to apply a pull equal to the existing interfacial tension force. Best results are obtained using large rings of fine wire, representative examples are about 3 centimeters diameter for the ring and 200 super centimeter of the wire radius it is here that we move on to a different method again I think a method known to you and in principle not very different when it comes to writing the force balance of course the physical picture is somewhat different. I may quickly add here that almost all methods of measurement of surface and interfacial tensions will require corrections. So in the context of ring method even while measuring the interfacial tension we will have to allow for a correction similar to what we had earlier and then the same steps like measuring the interfacial tensions for standard systems to calibrate the method that would be applicable here too ok. Now moving on to the drop weight method I believe this will be the force method to come to anybody's mind given the task of measuring the surface tension. About interfacial tensions we will think a little later however as I made a previous remark these methods being simple they are also deceptive you do not realize what extent of precautions one may need to take. So as I mentioned in context of ring method we would have other considerations here. So let us see what are the details of this method and what precautions we need to take. Here we measure the weight or volume of each drop of liquid when it detaches itself from the tip of a vertical tube we have to understand that this weight or volume of the drop will be determined largely by the surface tension of the liquid. So again we visualize the surface tension coming to picture and in contrast to the applied vertical pull in the ring method the gravity is doing the job for you.  At this point if we allow for this situation that the drops are forming extremely slowly then they would detach themselves completely from the tip when this gravitational pull balances the restraining surface tension force. What complexities could there be there which we do not envisage? We could look into this sketch to get an idea. We have here a capillary with a radius 2a and here the drop is about to fall as a rough sketch this should be ok and a moment a drop is detached the situation might look somewhat like this. Do not worry about exact precision in the drops shape etcetera but we could roughly say this is what it is. The more important point is that we see what is largely spherical portion which is the drop which is getting detached and a neck here there is a certain amount of liquid which is still sticking to the tip of the tube even while the drop is beginning to fall over here we see that some of the liquid in this neck becomes a part of the drop that is what I try to indicate by this conical portion. The remaining part is still hung up with the tip of the capillary ok. So, this gives you an idea as to what might be happening over there. If mass of the drop which has detached itself is capital M and G is the acceleration due to gravity, M G is the weight of the drop that is the volume of the drop times density of liquid rho L times G and so, this weight of the drop is being opposed by the surface tension force that may be given as the right hand side of this equation 3 2 pi A gamma where A is the radius of the tip of the tube. Those of you who are beginning to discern about this might see another potential problem a departure from reality in mathematical effort to mimic it in the force balance. I will just point that out and catch up with it later for the time being if we rearrange our equation the surface tension force gamma is M G by 2 pi A or V rho L G by 2 pi A. So, it would appear that if we can measure the volume of the drop or weight of the drop and if we know the radius of the capillary then it should be possible to measure the surface tension force that is the essential part, but there are details. So, what are those details? In this case we require corrections to estimate the surface tension because the liquid forming the drop does not leave the tip in totality and like earlier the surface tension force does not act exactly vertically. The correction factors are rather important in this method because the drops can be smaller than what is predicted by this equation by as much as 40 percent. This liquid and what is going with the drop in addition to what happens when the drop is detached from the tip in relation to liquid within the capillary those are the sources of complications. The drop is significantly smaller than what is predicted in this relation. So, what do we expect the correction factor to depend on first we name it phi we expect it to depend on drop volume, we expect it will depend on the tip of the capillary. Very careful measurements have revealed that correction factors greater than 1 on this plot the magnitudes are spanning range from 1.5 to 1.70 for the correction factor of phi. Correction factor greater than 1 is to be incorporated you would see logically in the numerator because the volume of the drop or mass of the drop is actually smaller than what is predicted in the equation. So, you need to correct for that smaller volume. So, phi comes here so, phi times mg by 2 pi a or phi times v rho lg by 2 pi a should give you the surface tension. In this plot you see the correction factor phi represented as a function of the tip radius divided by volume of drop to the power 1 by 3. So, you note that this is dimensionless and the value for a by v to the power 1 by 3 spans 0.5 to about 1.25 0.5 to about 1.25 and these have been obtained by Harkins and Brown way back in 1919-1928 have been checked several times by others and one could take these as authentic correction factors one could depend on. Here we try to ask ourselves the question as to how should we go about doing our experiment including the choice of the tip that is used for forming the drops. Obviously, we would have a choice for what tip radius to start start with. So depending on what age we choose we will get the corresponding volume we choose a different age we will get different volumes. So our choice of the tip will determine this factor depending on this factor we will need a different magnitude of correction factor phi. Now one glance at this figure coupled with your understanding of school level calculus will automatically suggest that we should be aiming at probably the flatter part of this curve somewhere may be between 0.75 to 0.95 as our operating range. We should choose such a tip radius such that A by V to the power 1 by 3 is between 0.75 and 0.95 so that the correction factor is least sensitive to any variations in this parameter A by V to the power 1 by 3 there you are likely to be having most reliable measurements alright. The correction factor is incorporated here right now you have other ways of measuring surface tension. So, for pure liquids we know surface tensions and then you actually experimentally find out what M and V are once you know that and you do it for several liquids and find out what the correction factor is for several tips of the capillary or different radii and then you get the data on phi versus A by V to the power 1 by 3. Obviously yeah so the much older method ring method is one which is common standard and standard surface and interfacial tensions have been known for much longer time. It is the convenience or speed with which we can make measurements those are the factors which come and there are variety of methods depending on the circumstances one could choose one of one of those methods which is more suitable. The ring method or do now tensiometer based method measurements are the ones which are fundamental. So, this gives you an idea that when you aim at this A by V to the power 1 by 3 to range between 0.7, 0.75 and 0.95 we are likely to have least dependence of phi on variations in A by V to the power 1 by 3. You see the gradient is 0 at the extremum maximum so the values of D phi by this dimensionless tip radius will change magnitudes from minus negative to positive through 0 and these values are likely to be quite small the gradient is close to 0. In view of what comments I made perhaps you might think about this and it was intentional to say that different liquids have been used and different red eye for tips. Those measurements reveal that for all liquids tested we get the same value for phi it means differences in viscosities of different liquids, differences in other properties for different liquids need not be allowed for in this method that is a fortunate set of circumstances a method is not critically affected by differences in properties. So, this correction factor of phi could be looked at as generic values for all liquids. The only condition is and I repeat the drops must be formed very slowly and then we are guided by A by V to the power 1 by 3 in the range 0.75 to 0.95. Now, at this point it is always interesting to ask this question how slow should the drop formation be could you make a guess maybe you can think about what you might want to do. If I ask you to measure the surface tension and all I want to tell you is that you got only very few simple expedience at hand in lab capillaries liquids weighing bottles weighing balances maybe rings how do you go about measuring the surface tension. I think 9 out of 10 times you will think of just having a capillary letting it form a drop of liquid measure the volume or weight of the drop weight of the drop will be easier to measure. And if you do it in an uninformed way then you might find that even for pure water surface tension values are very different from what you expect and it is very common to make this mistake. I do not want you to remember this equation this is only an equation of fit which gives you a good correlation between external data and the prediction, but it could be alternatively used for correct finding the correction factor. The critique was if it was not formed slowly then the balance of that particular thing is not valid. Is somehow is somehow not correct. Is the balance not valid or is it the other reason of the slower? The volume that you measure of the drop is a result of experiment right. So, whether the weight balance is the surface tension force or not is the only issue ok. So, you have to think of whether that assumption that the weight of the drop is balanced by the surface tension force or not is the only issue. So, if those are balanced you are ok and that happens when the drop is formed very slowly if not and with the corrections though and if not then of course, something is going wrong and that is what I am asking you to think before I flash it in the next slide yeah. First force is also generated if it is not very slowly that is do balance by the surface tension. Right and there is nothing in our equation to take care of anything related to that momentum of the liquid right.  We can collect a number of drops in a weighing bottle each drop should form slowly so slowly that not more than 1 every 3 minutes would fall and that I think in most people mind most people's minds would be not coming easily. If we can ensure that more not more than 1 drop forms every 3 minutes then accuracy to a few tenths of a percent is attainable. The drop is formed too quickly it will be actually too heavy because of the taint tail being blown up with more liquid coming down the tube ok. So, that is the reason why we need to have the drops forming very slowly now the same approach will suggest that we could use drop formation drop weight method for measuring the interfacial tension also. One will have to choose the heavier liquid to form drops within the lighter liquid. So, the heavier liquid will come down the capillary and form a drop at the tip and in our equation this would not be any longer the true mass of drop, but apparent mass and rho L will be replaced by the density difference. So, M is the apparent mass of the drop rho L is the density difference between the two liquids and phi is the correction factor found in the same manner as we did for surface tension estimation. Now, there is another observation we should be making here experimentally we must ensure that the outside of the tip from where the drops are forming is either completely wet or is completely non wetted by this liquid if it is completely wetted by the liquid it is fine if it is not wetted by completely non not wetted by the liquid then there is a problem because now the drops will form with an uncertain A. We do not know what effective radius is operative for the surface tension force. So, we have to ensure that the tip is either completely wetted or not wetted. Second we must not have too hydrophobic a surface of the tube or the capillary if it is too hydrophobic and you have a liquid like water coming down it then you might have seen this you would expect the drops to actually form inside the capillary itself because the contact angle does not permit continuous wetting of the inside surface. And therefore, one can never think of making a surface or interfacial tension using the drop wet method when the tube or capillary is made of Teflon. Teflon will be not wetted by practically any liquid. So, we cannot use that generally very lightly siliconized stainless steel is reliable. And these tips have to be made very carefully using watchmaker's lathe such that the ends are sharp and regular and the tips may be made hydrophobic with silicone and in handling these tubes you have to exercise a great deal of care because there should be no contamination. There is any contamination of the tips the surface or interfacial tensions you measure will come out to be spurious results. I already explained the frequency the small frequency of formation of the drops at the capillary tip is here that I may add a detail which is not indicated here. If you have to weigh something like 50 drops it would take a long time to conduct one measurement. So, in practice what can be done is that the initial part of drop formation that could be gone through without much difficulty relatively quickly. I might make a few remarks here while we are discussing the drop wet method about the drop formation. Now that is a generic feature of how drops or bubbles form here this rough diagram sketch has been made deliberately so that you can see what might be happening. I did not indicate a drop forming only at the tip and expanding I could have shown a sequence of drop shapes leading up to this I have chosen to show that there is a neck here. Now that is generic about drop and bubble formation there is a stage 1 in which the bubbles or drop form at a tip of an orifice remaining attached to the perimeter and then it is followed by a stage 2 in which somehow neck forms and keeps elongating. So this dropper bubble at the tip is growing but at the same time moving away from the tip of the orifice and at some point of time it snaps off leaving a daughter droplet or a daughter bubble in relevant situation. If you want to know more about the details of drop or bubble formation you should be seeing the mathematical models proposed by Professor Kumar from Indian State of Sands Bangalore and Professor Davidson from University of Cambridge. Their research groups have published a series of papers in 70s and especially a readable account may be found in the advances in chemical engineering series of 1970 in a chapter written by Professor Kumar and Kulur on drop and bubble formation. Well the same method can be used for measuring the standard interfacial tensions. I would like to explain a little bit more on how to save on this time may be through an experimental intervention. What could be done is a tip like this can be attached preferably through a ground glass joint to a micro pipette which allows you to feed liquid into this tube at a control rate and one could do that relatively quickly in the initial part when the bubble when this drop is expanding. So there is no error involved if we do not push the liquid with too much force at the moment of detachment. During the formation you can form the drop at a relatively rapid rate without having any problem but then you slow down and make the drop detachment very slow. So while you are forming one drop in every 3 minutes in normal circumstances you might be able to save on time you might form much of that drop much quicker and then slow down using the micro pipette and control you can slow down the drop formation at the later stages such that you do not blow up the tail into the bulk of the drop at the moment of detachment. So that way you may be able to do a better job of achieving the same precision of measuring the surface or interfacial tension but then also achieving a saving in time. Once again for interfacial tensions we have to calibrate the method and apparatus with the help of standard values. Now it is here that we move into the discussion of willy me plate method. Now this is kind of universal method to check surface tension over long time intervals. What is done is a very thin plate is attached to an arm of a balance or like in the tensiometry suspended from a light beam attached to a torsion wire and we see what is the additional pull required when this plate gets immersed in the liquid. If you start with the plate descending through air and entering the liquid at the point when it is partially immersed in the liquid whatever is the additional pull which is exerted by the liquid on the plate if that is measured that could be equated to the perimeter times the surface tension force. Now once again there are certain guidelines for achieving more accurate results it is preferable not to detach the plate from the surface but to keep it immersed partially in the liquid and make corrections for buoyancy. You could view this statement in the sense of what is the difference in the vertical pull when this plate is coming out of the liquid. So you measure what pull is required to take this plate make this plate coming out of the liquid but actually not snapping up from the surface rather allow for corrections related to buoyancy and this latter effect also can be made negligible if you suitably choose the mica plate. A very thin mica plate with the dimensions such as 10 centimeter width 5 centimeter height and 200 super centimeter in thickness may be adequate to minimize the correction by buoyancy. Let me show the diagram such that this discussion makes a clearer sense. We have here two sketches for a plate of solid being withdrawn from the liquid. In the first part A this solid is completely weighted so theta equal to 0 and therefore you see the vertical force applied is F the surface tension is almost acting vertically here if theta is 0 the surface tension will act vertically downward this arrow is only to be shifted to the solid surface for contact angle theta equal to 0. However, if the contact angle is not 0 then we have certain theta here the surface tension would not act vertically. We require for this method for F to give you the surface tension we require contact angle to be 0 or this liquid to weight the solid so that angle is actually 0. What if we suspect that complete weighting will not occur for some reason? We need to ensure now that that is achieved by rubbing this mica plate with some fine grade emery paper so that it is roughened and we have contact angle becoming 0. Mica would normally be weighted by clean water pure water but if it does not then roughening of mica could facilitate it and the way to do that is we should take the mica plate and rub it with a fine grade emery paper and there is also particular direction moving it in small circles to make roughening as uniform as possible in all direction. Those of you who have prepared samples for let us say making a scanning electron micrograph you would be aware of the kind of elaborate preparations that go in preparation of the samples you have to actually follow a similar method to prepare the substrate for making the SA measurements. If the perimeter is unity then f should give you gamma in general however the meniscus takes the shape which is as shown in this part b there is a angle theta the liquid makes with the solid and therefore, what one measures here is the weight of liquid pulled up above the main level by the liquid surface of the liquid surface and that would be gamma cos theta per unit perimeter or if theta is ensured to be 0 degrees then it will be equal to gamma. So, f is equal to gamma if theta is 0 degrees otherwise will be gamma cos theta. Given suitable weighting characteristics such that the plate is completely weighted by one liquid we should be able to use this method also for measuring the interfacial tensions right. So, it is a similar situation as we have consider in the context of the ring method. To obtain a plate strongly water weighted one uses glass carefully cleaned with chromic acid a cover slide may be a good example or it could be rough and mica as I just explained. However, if it is to be oleophilic oil weighted then mica coated with lamp black from a smoky Bunsen burner flame is adequate we will get theta equal to 0 degrees in oil and close to 180 degrees in water. I think we can conclude our lecture logically at this point and start with the Pendant drop method next time.


nd the guy coming out. So I worked really hard for winter shelter to be able to have connections with the ones that put out people in the middle of the night. If you could tell me, I think I saw in a report that the San Francisco, the navigation center is about 75 people. Is that what the number was in the report that I saw? Yeah, there's a few different shelter ones they have but the one which is actually a sprung shelter thing. Yeah, they had 75 and they let dogs in at one point like I was asking how many dogs? They had like 37 dogs there at one time. Like it's sort of crazy. Hey, thank you. Okay, sorry. But if anybody wants to get in touch with me for next Thursday. How about maybe through Susie? Maybe email her and then if people are interested they can contact Susie. And thank you. So that closes out the public comment portion and we'll bring it back to the council. I just had, I know I see the recommendation and you're kind of like focused on that but we're also kind of looking ahead in the next steps. There was one of the slides. Do you know for the RFP, is that something that's being looked at as being designed where there's multiple kind of structures like where you have like a 75 bed, two 75 beds or so that you can at least get some different proposals out in regards to what would be the cost. So at least we're gathering the information by potential service providers rather than it being considered as like a single operation. Is that something that's been considered? Well, as I mentioned earlier, we're not gonna go out with another RFP for the interim site or program. But in discussing the letters of interest from the folks who responded, there's several drivers to bed capacity. One is just the level of staffing that's needed. I think there is a threshold that you go over where you become more ineffectual in terms of the delivery of services that you're trying to meet. And so we've heard that from each of the respondents that we really do need to be considerative how big of scale we're thinking about, even though there's significant need here in Santa Cruz and in North County. And then also as we think about sites regionally with the county through this effort with outreach and siting, the bed capacity is really site constrained as well. So one thing I also wanted to mention that Serge also talked about or Brent actually talked about was, this is just the conversation about replacing the winter shelter. The city and the county as well as the haptic jurisdictions are also engaging in discussions about how to serve other demographic populations of homeless or veterans, people that reside in their cars and RVs and through the safe parking program. Those conversations are ongoing as well and could additionally add additional bed capacity in different locations that we're not talking about today. Vice Mayor Watkins. Just because you mentioned the subpopulations, I have been connected to the youth homelessness prevention and maybe Serge could probably tell you the name better than I can at this hour today. But I think it'd be great to know how we're working with them and alignment with them in terms of their resources and their needs and seeing how we can kind of further continue that if we aren't already, but just kind of wanted to throw that out there. Yeah, I mean, ironically, Serge and I had a discussion today. He sits on that committee about, Encompass did receive a grant to supports shelter services for our youth population and they're in the process of trying to figure out a site for that as well. And so I think there is opportunity to coordinate and think about all these different demographics and subpopulations that we're trying to serve. And also when you say that, this is the winter shelter we're talking about, creating a year round shelter. So it's not just a matter of like a limited period. So I think it's a bigger question about how we kind of manage it here in our jurisdiction. One of the things I want to know is how we kind of track not just the cost of this particular operation, but the supportive costs. I know we've had different allocation of public safety safety staff that's been addressing issues for the River Street Shelter. I'd like to know like one that we're making sure that we're tracking those so that if we cost out what something like this is going to cost, we get the true cost. Yeah, so I think you mentioned that at the last meeting as well. And one thing that I wanted to share with the council is that we do have in kind resources coming from both the city and the county. And those are being tracked in terms of the time that folks are spending staff time. In addition to that, we deployed the EOC to close the encampment and open the River Street camp. And that obviously with a deployment of the EOC that's highly tracked in terms of those expenses. And so Mayor Taras, it's when you asked, I think at the last meeting about whether we could potentially be reimbursed for those operations as well through the state funding that would be something that we would be looking into. Well, I mean, I know this is something where I support this recommendation. I support the work you do, but I also like to look at this additional direction so that we as we start looking forward, we're starting to track what our costs are so that when there are these opportunities for reimbursement, we can seek those out and request them. Also, as you know, we haven't got the response yet from the county in regards to our last correspondence, but look at how this particular measure plays into like a more regional approach where siting is also taking place in the unincorporated county for maybe some of the issues that Serge mentioned for mental health services or others that we're feeling acutely in parts of our city and also parts of the North County so that we can better address the needs, you know, on a regional basis. And then also directing some sort of independent review so that we look at when we're going forward, we have a check-in. And last, think about this from the last council policy direction that we're looking at a phase two that's consistent with the policy direction where there's equal participation in siting and funding. So while we are increasing the funding, that money doesn't necessarily be, it doesn't need to be like fully utilized for a site in Santa Cruz if we have it. If there's other locations, we wanna make sure that it's a regional approach and it's great to see that increased investment in looking at this problem. Do you need a motion or this is something? Yeah, I do believe we need a motion for the extension and if there's any additional direction that council would like to provide. Well, I will move the staff recommendation and I wanna thank you for the report and the answer to all the questions that we asked. In regard, is there a second, I guess? Oh, shoot, I was gonna do that. So a couple of things. I mean, I feel like the first two bullets are included in the additional direction are included in previous direction that we've given. It's basically what staff's been working on. So would you say? Is that true? So yeah, as I mentioned, we are tracking those in-kind costs and in terms of the second bullet, obtain a response regarding the county's regional homeless program activities, I would expect that to be a combination of the letter that you receive from the board in addition to further half discussions and directions and certainly the two by two committee could take that up as well. But we have received recommendations through the homeless coordinating committee to have that regional response. We do have a cost element set up just for this program. Yes. Okay, great. And then the third one, all the recommendations that we have go at least through the HAP, if not through also the county's other homeless, I can't remember the title of it, Homeless Governance Committee. Right, so there is, that's a regional body that has members of every elected body and then also staff and nonprofits and actual folks with lived experience who are part of that. So that is evaluating the recommendations from any of the municipalities as well as the county. So that feels like that's covered there because they're always looking at grant opportunities, best practice, funding sources from federal and state sources. So that feels like that's covered. I guess I'm thinking now in terms of from our city's investment in terms of what we're doing as a city, we just recently consulted with management partners during our ad hoc budget committee to look at how other counties and cities are investing in different programs. And we've seen that sometimes there's the examples that were provided counties take the lead on this program. And then also we discussed the idea of whether or not cities directly purchase services and we're finding that most don't. So it's a matter of getting an independent review, not necessarily from those that are current providers in the county. What that look like? It might, I'm just, I put it to staff to look at what kind of options are out there. And it's not, there's no time on constraint on this. It's a matter of just as part of our movement forward in this that we kind of have some sort of review of the program activities. So we're not just kind of moving forward in a way where we're not checking in to say, hey, are we doing this in a way that's gonna address this crisis in a way that's gonna see some results? Well, if what you're proposing is what you just said, I'm more in favor of that. This has actually obtained an independent evaluation which is different than looking to how we're spending the money and check in periodically. Well, I think it's a comprehensive evaluation. One cost money, one is then. It may cost money, right? We're spending, we're gonna be spending quite a bit of money on this over many years. How much direction do we need to give tonight? I'll ask the staff. I just wanna make sure. We don't have these updates very often and I just wanna make sure that we're. We have them in every council meeting. We have them in every council meeting. Not where we're given directions. Not where we're given directions. Months. Months. We're really months. We have had this on the agenda every meeting. I mean, obviously for the purpose of ensuring that our camp residents know that there is an extension and that we are adequately staffing the camp, we do need direction on the extension through August in terms of the remaining bullet points that's really at your discretion. If I could offer what we can do because I do have a multitude of questions that far exceeds the time this evening. An attention span I think of many of you is maybe what we can do is look at these things. And when we come back to you on August 14th, do a little bit of look and kind of help characterize what this could be because I, yeah, I do have a lot of questions about this as well. What it would cost, what it would look like, what the scope would be. Is this like on the third bullet, is this about looking at the recommended program activities? Is that just our interim shelter or is it the entire homelessness coordinating committee recommendations because Mayor Torontis referenced that earlier? So I think that that scope is vastly different in magnitude. So we'd wanna take a look at that. So if that's agreeable to the council, we can take a look at these and as part of your update on the 14th, maybe offer some more information. That sounds great. Okay, we're happy to do that. Okay, so there was a motion by Councilor Chase and it's seconded by Councilor Brown. Councilor Brown? I was gonna say it's not like a big game changer might be getting that $8 to $10 million and putting that to service and the homeless. What's this for capital? Yeah. You have the housing bond also, I think. Yeah, the housing bond too. Let's we're ending up the year. We've got a new council that's gonna be coming on and so we have a new work plan. So that's something that will eventually come up. So anyways, that'll be something a future council can't do.  We just start the work plan. It's two years. Okay, so we have a motion on the floor in a second. Is there any further discussion on this? Okay, although some favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed. So that passes unanimously, including the comments. Thank you for the feedback search. I appreciate it. So yeah, we're well over. We're at number 32 and that's the council meeting calendar. We've already added a special meeting August 10th, 2018. Is it an automatic? If it's necessary. It's before August 10th. It has to be, yeah. I would like, do you want to weigh in on that? I would like to briefly discuss that. We got an email during the day that the and the fix, the legislative fix to the initiative is on its way to approval. So when is the deadline for the governor to sign that? Soon, I think. Yeah, it's soon. And so what we want to do though is have maybe by the end of the week, but we would want to do, I talked to Tony about it, we probably want to have a little bit of time to do some analysis on the Charters, the Charter City question. And so, I mean, we would want to schedule something as soon as possible. I don't know if we could do something like this week. You know, we could, we need some time. But my point that I don't need to know right now how long it'll take you, but my thought is and won't be necessarily won't be the leader on this issue, but if there's the decision that there's a poison pill in that state legislation, just in fairness to the people who would be putting together a campaign, that decision should be made ASAP because you don't want to ramp up and get people involved and raise money and just say, we can't do it. So. I have a question. The city attorney, is there any way like we, we're still here at the meeting. Can we add like a motion that if there is that poison pill you that automatically will be removed so that we can at least make that as direction now so that you could just let us know by maybe email or do we, can we take a vote on that? I think it has to be done by resolution. Is that right? Is my understanding from the. That was the advice that I got since you guys were adopting it by resolution that it would. My only thought given the timing and that you don't want to spend over a month getting people ginned up for a campaign that's not going to happen. That there should be a quick consultation about how deep into that question you want to go. And I know David, you'll be gone most of July but most of us will be here. And, and honestly, I just think that's the only fair way to proceed. Yeah, we can schedule something as soon as possible. Soon as possible. We'll have some more information certainly later this week. And then have an opportunity to look at it and we'll do something as soon as possible. Okay. So did you have other items too? No. So, you know, we have item 33 and I just think it's always nice that we. Sorry, we did add the special meeting for the city manager evaluation. August 16th, yeah. 16th, okay. So there's that also. Yes, it's not on there, but. It's not on there. It's not on that one, but it's in your calendar. Okay, so then those are the only two. Oh, well then we don't have an August 10th. We'll hear back as far as the schedule meeting, but we do have an August 16th. It's already scheduled. So that closes out 32. I'm going to say we have 33 working to provide updates from council. I think let's, let's get an update back when you return from vacation. That sounds good. I was looking forward to it today. Martin. Yeah. Martin. An LRDP. Yeah, you appreciated that. You guys get a good start. All right. Good thing we didn't have an evening session. Yeah, we just, we just did. David's really good at avoiding those evening sessions. We'd be done early. I did this one just for Chris, just to go a little later because he's always saying I don't go. Yeah, yeah, I know. The meeting is adjourned. Absolutely. What?


Okay, I want to start a bit different. I did a peek in my slide and there's one more point I want to tell about. And that's something that dawned on me a few days ago, which is pretty funny when it comes to features in RPM in general. And I realized there's an interesting distribution on how difficult it is to get some changes implemented. And there's basically a bathtub distribution. It's very easy for very small changes. So if you want to add a macro, no one cares. You just do it. It's in there. Someone updates. You update your RPM and Fedora is in there. It just works. No one cares. It's easy. And then there are really, really big changes that break the world, that require replacing yam everywhere, that will break the distribution and whatever. And they are also easy. We did Julian expressions and we just committed this and released it and didn't do anything and it magically happened. Probably some people did something, but we didn't. And magically all the infrastructure got fixed and it was very, very, very easy and smooth for us at least. I hear some people, other people had things to do, but we don't care. We don't care. That's like elsewhere. But the funny thing is they are middle-sized features and they are just impossible. You just can't. They don't have the huge benefits, like the big ones, but I have similar risks involved, like breaking somewhere randomly. And so they don't get so that the version comparison is one of those. It's in there for years. It's very small.  Only a few lines change. It's even in round six. Yeah, it's even in the back part of round six. But you can't get it in Fedora because, of course, it might break something somewhere. In the machinery, in the back side of the machine where you can't see, and no one knows what it might break, so they're all afraid, so you can't get it in for years. I mean, why can't we just do that just like the other one and see what breaks? Yeah, you can. That's what I even want. We refuse to do it. Who will refuse to do it? Vasco, I think. Why did you ask them? I mean, I was the one who first asked them. They saw it and first figured it out. Well, let's make a new law that benefits it. I didn't ask them. Who am I to ask them? I just implemented it. Actually, we got a patch from Susan to be completely honest. So they've been using it like for years. And, as you know, Susan still exists. So it should be fine. So here's the best and most funny part about all that specific feature. Remy has silently been using it for the PhD packages for the past two years. I've told nobody and nothing broke. So. But that's just, it's a funny observation that the middle thing is the hardest to get. So if you have ideas, please break the world or come up with something small. But not this middle thing. The problem is that middle thing seems to move around a bit. He's using it probably and nothing breaks because he wanted it all the way down to the real six. But the issue I discussed with the RBI ecosystem recently with the rich dependency. For everybody else, I had the issue that you are building on route seven package for Fedora 28.  Then there is a request, Anubin, FGCC and RHEL 7 RPM doesn't recognize this.  Instead of saying you need RPM with capability full or instead you need RPM bigger than version of something. We will be probably better. Yeah, the problem is that we do have those mechanisms but not source package files. They exist at the source package level. So if you're doing a rebuild against a source package you'd actually get the correct failure. Actually there is a mechanism because there is a request in the package and I'm requiring RPM build rich tabs but the problem is that the RPM parse all the dependencies together. So it will pass the, I'm reading rich dependency subversion. It's okay, I'm putting it in the set and then it will come to the and it will break. I don't know this. So what I propose is that the RPM should read those RPM leaves parenthesis something first and then say, okay, this is good. We will proceed further. So then has there never been a case where something like this would have been the logical conclusion to do this? No. Wow. Probably. I can't really surprise you. Not that I have any to do about it the 20 years on all packages but I guess that not because the syntax for the dependencies has not changed like ever. Right. That's the first time. We basically changed. Changed exactly once. Changed from. Because we also added extra grammar which it breaks on too, the weak dependency tags. Yeah, because until Hannah did that back port to like read the text in the first place. That's not a syntax thing. That's not a problem here because first RPM can also text it doesn't know. Yeah. So for binary packages. Right.  Yeah. And so that's a very specific thing that actually didn't happen because we never changed that. The truth is that those three dependency was a little bit fragile because previously even the weak dependency were present in RPM for a long, long time and a little bit tilled down. So they have been used only after a long, long year so the rigid dependency is starting after quite short of time like. Yeah. We've sped up the speed of RPM a little bit. Which is good. Yeah. You can only complete about one of those things. Yeah. The only issue is that nothing else changed to accommodate the fact that things are actually now moving at the proper development base. Yeah. It took us actually quite a while to get like Fedora infrastructure to move also with the pace that actually can keep stable. Yeah. I'm not objecting. What I'm objecting is that if you are speed up the pace you should have some mechanism saying you need this version or this capability to proceed with this architecture. Yeah. The thing is even if you had it wouldn't help you because it's already there in the back. No. The thing is you're actually fighting the problem with the old RPM. Yeah. You're running on the path. If you'll have media diagnose the problem. Yeah. I mean basically it's actually not doing something wrong. It's just not very helpful with the error. Yeah. Which is a feature of RPM basically all around. Yeah. We're going crappy error messages. I mean at least they now come in color. Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. They use backpicks. Yeah. You get this message from John and those from RPM. Well yeah. Yeah you get it. Well I'm not trying to say this situation. That's doomed anyway. So I'm trying to say situation when after three years from now it will include function teleport inside RPM and current RPM doesn't recognize it. So I'm trying to say situation for the years. So for the general thing with RPM is we've always guaranteed background compatibility but not forward compatibility. We're just in shape here. And you basically can't. If you start doing forward compatibility guarantees. You lose every other game.  Yeah. And I've seen a project that tried yum for example and they have that now for this reason. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just not really for better. Again we'll meet the things right and we have to do with that or not. But more. I mean the simple trick of like processing the RPM live stuff as these first querying for those capability and supported is not a bad thing but the problem is right now that I think every high level package manager actually ignores all those. Yeah. So like they don't read them. They don't actually even see them because they're not exported by so like there's no point to investigate them. Yeah. So all those tools would need to be changed. I'm not saying that it's a hard change or anything like that but we don't actually have a mechanism right now. I mean they are stripped out of the data with the argument that well it's basically redundant if you're running your package source from the wrong repository you're doing anyway. I mean I don't think that's quite a fair. Yeah. But I get it. But I mean there are a lot of them and they are in a very package and so it saves a quite some lines. Yeah. Although I mean I don't know if you actually have a special collection at the top that I could just read which ones are in for a repo then that would actually be a neat optimization trick because if they're the same everywhere and you can just say the maximal subset of all capabilities that this repo requires then you go there. One issue I have I hit it so fast when you accidentally do something quite you put into the post pre-inst a script you put something like exit one so you screw your script pre-inst in pre- uninstall yeah then there is no way to to fix it because even if you fix next version of the package RPM always try to run the pre-inst script of the previous script and the administrator had to manually step in under RPM dash erase dash in all scripts so every admin in the world have to do that to fix your mistake so it would be nice if if I ever do something like that I can somehow override this mechanism and say don't run this pre-inst or something of the previous script so I think I can screw at some point suggest that having an update script which would also make a lot of other things much less ugly because you wouldn't reuse the script that you assume are for install for that kind of thing as well yeah, you could if you start getting into weird states though because now you have to separately consider what's happening for those stages and then now you start having the requirement you know maybe we need to have the delay script execution so things actually run correctly all the time because the way that transactions can happen that's not necessarily easy to do currently because of how ordering actually works yeah transactions get really funny if they're for property and that's probably not going to work yeah the transactions get really really weird when you start talking about anything that could cause the breakage where you want to like split or override script operation because you don't actually know what other things might depend on it it's a difficult option to expose which is why actually I think only one I don't know if I can remember exposes it at all and they expose it in a very very slight way because it gets very meaningful and it requires knowledge that an admin just may not necessarily have about what decision to do to make things like that yeah I think that the right thing would be to have some type of override that was used to the next like it would be a like a transaction flag that you could push and say like feed this as a factor and then no you don't want to have a transaction flag cause that's something that users would want to have that night as part of package package package basically yeah well you could put it as an argument for the script load like if you're overriding the same script load from an older package just as a you know I don't care what happened in this old one don't want ever yeah my guess is this will get interesting soon as soon as you think about obsolete and whatever and which package actually meant but maybe a 90% solution is better than none yeah because doing things by running around typing commands is always paid and really right with there well what we can do is well there might be some easy way like just define some macro which is writing some temporary file like in great trance like the nbr and for instance do not run post-on then basically each trigger will check if such file is used there and if it's there then you are capable of you don't want to be disabled for 4 to 1 nbr and then you basically you don't think you could also just attack and put it in your head or well the problem with the new thing is you would need some time to report it everywhere and with just simple file we can do now nah almost yeah much social really probably easier to just have to take and evaluate attack on one time and then filter out all the script parts shouldn't be done because the thing is you could actually use the full strength of the dependency system for that so to prevent foreign script parts from being run oh yeah you could basically just cancel script and then for so like inverse of the of what triggers they just nullify scripts give us the inverse trigger yeah nullify script if this condition is true because because triggers are not horrible enough yeah well I mean you're describing triggers except the other they do the opposite of that you want to write it up yeah yeah write it up write it up can you just want to ignore all the script because there are cases like obsolete's case actually this would be helped by it because in obsolete's case a lot of times when you replace one with a completely different package and it happens to have the obsolete's these scripts that execute in that case are probably not actually going to work correctly because in many cases in obsolete's isn't necessarily going to include or provide meaning that they often are but like giving the ability to deal with that last bit by saying like in this case you're triggering based on the fact that this condition is being obsolete like just nullify all the scripts that's actually a pretty easy way to like just avoid that if it turns out to be a problem yeah right because you can basically match all other you match all conditions in all conditions you can match for different lanes congratulations we have a hundred percent solution somehow that was just too easy you'll probably find five other things that are wrong with this as long as you try to implement it but it might actually be not that that's another thing that's insane up here if you have a problem there are two basically two ways this can end up the one is you add like five lines and it just works the most more common version is you have to rewrite like three subsystems and then it's still not quite there and then there was a title somewhere that becomes AI and to add more fun to it there's no way of telling them a problem in advance okay so another easy thing easy what I envy Debian work is that they're probably installed okay or somewhere that we have we have the macro underscore install length where you can decide which locale can be installed but you have to define it somewhere the macro and you have to know which locale is installed so somehow first print it and then something macro while Debian work has some command where you have just nice and keywords menu which will do this and we will just click I don't want these locale like Italian Chinese and so on so you're talking about Debian well it's Debian it's hung by Debian as well but they have standalone application as well and it will delete all installed locale which I didn't select like the Italian and next time I'm installing package it will don't install Italian locale so basically we're missing the part where like you decide to set install lines and I want to retroactively purge all the crap if it doesn't match that because our people already know and somewhere it will define the underscore install lines with those lines that part is easy the part you're asking for is like retroactively purging actually it shouldn't be that difficult because if you're using the Boolean dependencies you should be able to do that and I think most of us already reoriented around the Boolean dependencies for like that should actually be already like 80-90% there basically just missing I don't know about the details I've not looked into this the last time I checked this a while ago but they were actually already using Boolean dependencies for this and actually DNF should be able to prune them if the matching packages go away yeah so what I'm just missing is a nice user interface you'll allow me to do that sure it's not about real problem yeah all right well there is there is still the case of when people are using find lines they don't break out the lines into separate packages and stuff that's where like if you set install lines you want to have a way to just go back through the archive data to encourage old things that don't match your language because our game stops caring about those files anyway once you set that so purging them is not a big deal it's not easy to find that information because it's not like something you think about or know how to look at the database for it but a tool for doing that would probably not be that bad I'm all open to adding more stuff if it's really needed but one of the hope for the Boolean expression was to be able to solve issues like this in a generic way from an open aspect by setting up the packages to probably connect should be more professional doing the tooling on the user land side so while we are at the Boolean stuff wouldn't be easy to add Boolean provides oh boy we just had this kind of situation it did I'm not aware of it so so I did think about this and I decided not to for a reason the main reason is it requires RPM to actually do solving to be able to check that whether it can install a package right now RPM has a very simple check whether it can install a set of packages it basically just evaluates each Boolean term and if it's true it's fine if it's false it's obviously not wrong and it's simple to implement it's also simple to understand so while the dependency solving is complicated checking the result is easy to see if it's if this is working if you have the Boolean stuff on the on the provide side also it's not at all trivial to decide whether a set of packages is insolvable we effectively would need to solve an RPM yeah basically yeah but I mean I mean it's not only an implementation problem it's also a problem of people figuring out why it's not working everything is starting up because I have a package installed that has a provide that's conditional or something I want to install yeah and I want to install this this is not yet provided oh god but if I would install it it would be right oh that's basically all those all those provides are now basically they are just there and then they would but then it would basically split up into a quantum state and you basically have to basically have to decide for each of them which value they do have well the workaround we want to do for this is empty packages empty packages yeah it's a package without files that just requires some two packages yeah so we have the same basically same problem with RAS because there are so called great features yeah so exactly the same point so basically what we have decided we cannot do it in RPM so we will just which so the main package will just depend on free food if these packages it's also the packages will be empty but the package is empty and if we can get out one generation of packages then it won't be so painful for you anymore it's now like you have to create 15, 20, 30 packages maybe yeah we need a spec generator anyway yeah once you know some of the spec generators that are out there would actually horrify you in how they work so don't ask for things don't know what the consequences might be don't ask for things that you don't understand what the consequences might be because they're kind of horrifying all well I'm only asking for RPM to be a super set of what the Python ecosystem already has yeah and the basically environment markers and all those things they're the same kind of tricky problem with Rust but the core issue for doing it is that if we turn provides into expressions that evaluating them becomes so painful that it actually might not be possible to debug dependencies anymore that's what it comes down to if you can't debug dependencies then what the way to tell RPM fake things to be able to get expressions that you want to know and there's not actually a way to really do that okay I mean it could be done but like that's a lot of work that possibly could be solved in a different way like the the way that the Rust creates are doing it right now is that they do with the with the provides and requires statements with clauses so that the same package must provide all of those things together and so we basically avoid having to have provides map because the requires says one package must provide all of those provides together which we haven't recently yeah well this was the reason why with was added because that way we could avoid having mapped it provides because that was the alternative somewhere at some point how to do that yeah I wrote it in a mailing list but in retrospect not it's the best place to put that can you re-send this to me and can put it up on the rpm or yeah I can do that website yeah because he does well to have some examples of like why you use because that's like a fancy expression we added in our 414 precisely to solve this problem because rust was really hard before that what what Igor wants to do is another way to do it and it's technically more efficient there's multiple providers of a feature but in practice that doesn't turn out to happen that often in most ecosystems the only ones where this kind of happens in is rust and go and go is stupid and rust actually has a bunch of different ways of dealing with this problem internally and a lot of those can be flattened into expressions that we're already using in RPM to handle this so it's only kind of edge-casey and in most cases Igor just winds up upgrading dependency anyway and so doesn't care anymore and so but yeah in the Python case and I think most ecosystems are using the width dependency to just match the markers so that they all bind into the same package and yeah I'll send you I'll re-send you the link to my available post which explains why we use rellib and I'll write a small verb and what we can put that on the RPM work site so that people know about this because that is the reason we added that dependency there are a couple of interesting things that can be done with this brilliant expressions so maybe talking through your case yeah I don't understand how it would solve so you have solved for everyone to get it so you have a package that gains a a provide a feature if it is combined with another package yes that's basically yes the issue basically you need something that represents basically the space between those two packages for example I have that gains PDF support if PDF renders it yeah so obvious thing is of course having a small package that represents those bridge which is annoying but obviously works and so how do you do this with Rust so we just check the versions so basically there is for example in the requirements like I need version which is combined with 1.0 which means you want any version between 1.0 and 2.0 2.0 would be impossible so we specify some like speculators create full more equals 1.0 with create full as in 2.0 and then if we want a feature package on top of that we wrap that in brands and say with the feature for create which means we specify both clauses and then then after that to solve then it checks against the second clause which is the feature that we actually request but you're doing this in the requiring right we're doing the requiring so that's basically the opposite thing of what he wants he wants to provide basically everybody wants it yeah everyone wants it so if putting it in provide B2 catastrophic that would be already probably decided it would be can we gain a new thing for RBMs that would specify extra features or is it just an overkill and we should just think of sub packages you can probably just write a reminder that creates a sub application yeah if we get markers that creates sub packages I fear I fear we can actually do that so the kernel does this a bunch of actually a bunch of packages have sub package generating macros it's even worse the debugging for packages used to be a macro it's kind of still it's let's get a little bit more specific macro high it's really not ideal Python dependency generator yeah can the generator itself create the sub packages we were you're going to I'm going to have to write a description about this for you because we were talking about this earlier so basically automatic package creation is on my back of my mind for quite a while if not really just a couple of open questions how to actually do that and they have been discussion with Panu if we really want to do that because so it basically is one of those control questions the question is who's controlling how the packages going to look like is it in control of the package or is it in control of the distribution that provides like the patterns for the sub packages or is it both because it can have overrides or yeah so that's all still to be determined yeah so a lot of things is that I'm going to at least a design proposal for Florian to figure out like whether this will actually be workable in a way that doesn't make everyone's heads explode for having the sub package generation because it's actually something I want to because in one of the distributions I work at Magia we split out every goddamn library into its own sub package and so it takes a lot of work and it's a a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of the list of sub packages gets really big once you start you know dealing with a lot of stuff you could also like split out instead of libraries like no arch files and stuff like documentation documentation language packs automatically there's a lot of there's a lot of things that can be leveraged it's just a matter of like figuring out how you want that to look and how you want the mechanisms yeah the problem basically is that the spec file itself is basically oblivious of how actually the package looks so you don't have a file list this is only generated basically after the spec file is parsed so so questions what's the workflow there but at some point you want to have that and that's definitely definitely one of the clients for the future to be able to specify how sub packages will make sense to kind of formalize what we would like to gain but the Python extras requires and give it to you so you can then compare what you are preparing and obviously you can just see the four of us together yeah I think we might want to implement it using macOS first for a spec generator first to see if stuff actually works this way and then compare nodes so if you want to look at an important spec generator tool as much as Florian is going to kill me for mentioning this auto spec is actually one example this is from Intel and what auto spec does is it builds the package over and over again it analyzes the output every time it changes the options to figure out what all the sub packages are following a pattern list to identify how it's constructed and it ultimately produces the final descriptions done license determined and then spits out everything internally consistent but it takes hundreds of runs to get some packages to get there this is the reason why nobody wants to do this because the problem with it is you're talking about mechanically understanding software and so the reason we're not talking about full-blown we don't we have one line and then spec magically happens is because of that no what I want is basically take all the information that's now in spec files and push it to the upstream metadata well that's a different problem because the upstream metadata has to actually be sufficient for that to work well yes but we have some control over that actually do you? yeah I'm a Python developer right so I mean it's still you still have the ecosystem to argue with and I mean argue well definitely yeah that's a different topic but it's our own domain so the way it's on us to argue with it I mean if you want to push that metadata there then sure it's probably not a bad thing it's also a problem in the Python ecosystem yeah the thing is it has lots of problems with all the faults that RPM has it does some things right oh it's so much better and and I guess some of those kind of packaging systems can still learn the trick or two like doing proper dependencies yeah for example this this is actually a big issue for RubyGems because when we were rebuilding all the gems in copper it's like 80,000 packages if the policy is if you don't state license it means proprietor so the game to spec actually add add at that point and reject to proceed so if we somehow get for example for gems the license back to the RubyGems then it will be awesome even for few hundred packages that would be awesome so if you will start that in Python land and you will have somehow to do that and we will do that well RubyGems the main problem with the license is that every single distribution and the upstream uses different licenses so for example for Rust in upstream nowadays there is a check for SPDX but it doesn't mean because in federal for example we have ASL base 2.0 but the SPDX format is Apache dash 2.0 well you can always well do some translation the main problem with that is you need to find the license actually so if you find in federal that the license is GPR and it's only missing in the metadata and it's easy yeah that isn't actually your case is absolutely fine and so it's unfortunately is this was a bad example the bad the good example where this goes horribly wrong is BSK and MIT licenses where Tom is going to drink because there's almost 100 different variants of all of those and the problem with that is that in SPDX like every single bloody variant has its own tag and the distributions that do use SPDX this problem is fine they can map up to a land where we use the Pandora Pack system we are not insane enough to have to try to identify every goddamn flavor we just call it BSK and MIT and all of the day but this means that our data is actually inadequate for upstream systems yeah so like that that's one of the reasons why this becomes a big problem because if we decide that we're going to move to SPDX stuff which is a conversation that keeps happening over and over again okay actually has to get into one of the more recent ones when we were starting to talk about Rust and yeah that's a conversation but if we want to start talking about doing that which is a different type of problem then that makes our data a little bit more valuable if we want to push that into Python or well Python uses our system which is a different problem Ruby and all the other ones it would make sense in that case because you can't guarantee that they're going to be consistent between the two systems at personal like for some of the big major ones like the copy left ones and the ones that are formulating permissive licenses yes but everything else no and that's the problem is that increasingly you have more of the less formulating ones than the more formulating ones because they're just that's just what people want to do now you know being mostly corporate environment developers that feel more for that kind of stuff it becomes actually harder not easier for us to be able to provide a value in that sense we are probably running out of time so let me ask you yeah we just showed to the audience project which is my pet project because I'm doing training for newbies in RPM so explaining them what RPM is and all those basic like URL name and version so yeah so I create this wizard which is like really for newbies so you start video petitioning full and you have the link to the guidelines how to grab the names version four three five and in the end you will get some swag yeah so it's really a part about if anyone a spec wizard is not quite the same thing as a spec as it is and what's like you have to figure a spec bit this is probably way full of ah yeah dynamically figuring out what everything would be but this is something I'm working on any output I think I remember some