Hi there, usually the behavior panel will take a piece of video and we'll chop it up and then we'll talk about what we see in that person's behavior that we're supposed to be analyzing, right? We're not doing that today. What we're going to do today is we're talking to two different people, but pretty much at the same time in one section of the video. And this video is long. It's really long. It's long because we've been really selfish in this. This isn't for the regular old viewer who really likes the kind of stuff we do. That's not what's going on here. What you're going to see here is an interrogation and you're going to see, we'll ask a question and then we're going to be quiet and we're going to sit there and you're going to get bored watching this and you're going to get tired of it. You're going to move on and it's fine. But I'm telling you ahead of time, that's what's happening. We're trying to elicit information from these two people because we saw them on unsolved mysteries on the Berkshires UFO incident that's on Netflix. So what we wanted to do after watching that, we believed them. We believed what they were saying as we watched it. I was like, I don't see anything wrong. Greg was like, I don't see anything. Mark said, I don't see a thing either. And Chase said, I see nothing. So we did one on Jane Green earlier. And then after that, we all got an email from this guy named Tom Reed. And he's the guy that's in, you'll see him in a few minutes if you'll watch this for a second. And he's in the Berkshires UFO incident on Netflix. He said, look, I'll talk to you if you want to talk to me about it. So this guy says, look, there's four people who are going through Profile Me, my body language. And they do it professionally for a living. And I'll go talk to him. And I say, I've seen a UFO. So we were like, yeah, we want to talk to you, man. So that's what you're going to see. You're going to see us talk to him and his mother because she was in it as well. And we believed her when we saw it as well.  Again, it's not the kind you see on TV. It's not, where's the girl? Where's the kid? None of that. But this is one form of interrogation. I can't tell you all the details about how we go about doing this. Some people who are interrogated will say, yeah, that's, that's normal. But you're going to find it horrifically boring if you're used to seeing or you want to see what we usually do. Okay, just so you know, it's a little long, but it has to be. That's the way it is. And in the real world, it takes a while to get someone to tell you things and to get information from the information you need. So that's what we're going to be doing. It's going to be boring. This is what we usually do. And that's why we need to let you know ahead of time that this is different than what you're used to seeing. So there you have it. Here we go. Like I told you, I'm so pale. When I take my shirt off, I'm so pale, you can see my heart like a newborn fish.  You've know how to cut. Amber did that. Fresh. I just cut mine. Good. Hey, Chase, take a big hit off that and blow it out and go, welcome to the behavior panel. No, because you're going to record it and put it into some video. No, it would be for us. No, just take a big hit off and go, welcome on Chase Hughes. This is the behavior panel. I'm Scott Rasmussen, a body language expert and analyst. I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation of body language. And I'm also a trial consultant. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I teach behavior profiling and interrogation. I also develop tactics and techniques for our intelligence agencies and I've written a number one best-selling book on nonverbal communication. Mark. Mark Bowden, expert in human behavior and body language, help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they speak. I've written full books on human behavior and body language. Greg. Currently, I'm a former Army interrogator, Army interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written a few books on body language and behavior, and I primarily spend my time with Wall Street and corporate America today. Usually what we do is we have a video, we analyze it, we tell you the body language we see. And we did one on Jane Green after we watched the Unsolved Mysteries, Berkshire's UFO incident. After we did that, after we put that one out, we all got an email from Todd Reed. He's the guy that's on the covered bridge out there on the show that tells what was going on during that. And so we talked to him, he's going to be our guest today. So Greg, why don't you introduce Tom, tell us a little about how we're going to post this today. Yeah, so Tom and I have had a few conversations and Tom Reed is going to be our guest today. He was, when he was nine years old, if I recall correctly, Tom, was one of the people in this show, this Unsolved Mysteries show, and he was with his mother and his brother and his grandmother traveling across the bridge and we won't take any thunder from what he's going to tell you. The way we're going to approach this is we're going to listen to Tom's story, ask a few questions as we go and hear all the details and facts that Tom has to share with us. And his mother Nancy, is Nancy correct? Nancy, yeah. Yeah. His mother may join us for a few minutes as well. Okay, so thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it.  So Tom, please introduce yourself. Okay. Well, I grew up in Berkshire's, Southern Berkshire's until I was about, that's 18 years old. My mother had a diner in town, which is now renowned in the area. And I grew up with horses and a funny thing is when they had the horses, I wanted a dirt bike or a mini bike and then I ended up getting a dirt bike and I wanted the horses back. So it's never greener on the inside. Tom, you and I shared a horse thing we said yesterday. Yeah. The only problem with the horses is they eat when you're sleeping, you know? Right. So tell me a little bit about that horse. Let folks get to know who you are and what you did with your horse and that kind of stuff. When I almost fell? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I was riding on a horse show, a 4-H horse show in Great Barrington, which was held at Ski Butternut. And yeah, I was probably, I was nine. And we were using a horse that I wasn't used to riding. It was a larger horse. And when they put the saddle on it, apparently it was gassy or whatever. So the stomach was a little bigger than normal. And I was in a competition and I was going full speed and I had a thing in a full gallop. And all of a sudden the saddle started to slide off to the side of the horse. I'm grabbing the mane because I'm like, you know, I couldn't even stop the horse. And there must have been 20 or 30 other horses and that was somewhat up front, you know, the better part of it. And yeah, by the time I just felt these hands grab me and slide it back up and took me out of the race, you know, that was why we left Ski Butternut and started heading home that night, that we saw this, we were involved in what we were. And yeah, that scared me quite a bit. I didn't go on a horse for a while after that. I mean, I was actually shook up on that. But so with what happened back in Sheffield, I wanted a camera. My mother was like, what do you want for your birthday? Christmas or whatever it was. And I told her I wanted a camera. And because we ever saw this thing again, I was going to get a picture of it. And so my mother got me one of those little Polaroids.  And so that was kind of what, believe it or not, fueled my career because I got into the photography club in Great Barrington High School. And then I started shooting the fashion runway in Hartford. And then I became a stage manager for Northeast Concerts. And I was working with some bands, John Kay from Steppenwolf. And then I started shooting for St. John's fashion shows. You know, St. John, you know, was a store in the New England area. And I met Daniel Gallo, who was with Penthouse Forum in New York City. And I was trained on slide film and studio lighting. And so then I went to Miami and over probably about five or six years of shooting for other agencies, I opened up my own agency. And it was quite successful. And I had the five-year packaging campaign for those diapers. And I was working on a lot of staffing, a lot of the girls in TV shows like CSI Miami. And I became one of the booking agents for the Miami Dolphins and had season tickets to that. So Miami was kind of more my home than anywhere else until about 2006 when I decided to get a fresh start and move over to the Tennessee area, which to me was more of a warmer New England. So it kind of felt more at home. And that's kind of why I'm here. Okay, cool. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for the introduction. Get to know you a little bit. Everybody here will have a different thing. So I'd like to shift gears then. Let's talk a little bit about the incident in 1969. And rather than me say, and then what? And then what? And then what? But let's just let you tell us about that night because this happened after your horse show incident, I think, correct? Yeah, we had left ski butternut.  And rather than our diner, my mother didn't want to cook. And the diner was actually somewhat closed at that point. And so we had a burger and it was probably about 8.30 or so. And my mother said, well, let's go back to the diner and close up. And she had to make a night deposit drop and I kind of think what the chair is up for the next morning and get it ready. And so we pulled into the back actually near the dumpster. We came in the back door and I was sitting on the stool and my mother was working on the cash register. My grandmother was helping put the chairs up. And we weren't there that long but enough that it was getting dark. And so my mother went next door to the bank and dropped the money in the slot. It was a bank, it's still in Sheffield today. And we started to head home. And we got in the station wagon and we were pulling out of the green there and went up about a mile or so and took a shortcut over the bridge. Was that unusual for you to take a shortcut across the bridge? Yeah, we normally went down Kellogg. I don't know why she went that way. I don't know if she really liked the drive but it was too dark to really see anything anyway. But we did, we took her shortcut. And it's very New England, the bridge. I don't know, maybe because I was almost trampled that day. Maybe, I don't know, she was just feeling a little bit differently. I don't know why we went that way. But anyway, we came into the bridge and the headlights, the way the headlights were reflecting with the boards and everything. My grandmother had later on mentioned that she saw what she thought was a different bleed of light coming to the boards, the planks at the bottom of the bridge. But that was something she mentioned afterwards. And as we came out the other side, you know, I've mentioned a million times, I was giving my brother a candy which caused my grandmother to turn around and look in our direction. And that's when we saw what looked like a white sphere. I'm guessing maybe four times the size of a Volkswagen Beetle. And it was solid. So when you say you saw it, where exactly in relation to you did you see that? It was basically right out my window. It was right there. I mean, it was a time we were driving forward. So yes, of course, it went to the back. But I saw it like within probably 50 yards from where it was. And, you know, I've mentioned that, you know, that it looked like it was coming from the water or the banks of the water. I don't really know where it came from. But when I saw it, it was rising up a little bit and started to go behind the treeline. And my mother kept driving forward and my brother had looked to the right. And saw something that looked very similar but orange in color. And so she drove a little further down the road and she pulled off to a near telephone pole. And how far do you think she drove? Oh, maybe 30 yards, 40 yards to the clearing, just the other side of the trees. Did you hear anything? No, I didn't hear anything. Any burning smell? Anything else? No, nothing. It was quiet. I mean, as a matter of fact, it was almost dead quiet. It was almost too quiet. Okay. I didn't hear anything. You know, I mean, it was like, I've mentioned it was like being underwater. It was just like muffled. And you would have thought you would have heard something. You would have heard birds, you would have heard something. Nothing.  And I could, I was looking at this thing while it was dead silent. And it was just like, and as crazy as it sounds, it seems like once we came out of the other side, that bridge, things were changed. I mean, the atmosphere, everything was just different. Were you all talking to each other during this while that weird feeling was happening? To be honest with you, I don't remember, but I'm sure we were because it was hot. The windows were open. My brother was sitting next to me. It was late. I almost got trampled. I had a green ribbon and a brown ribbon, which I was pretty upset about. And so I'm sure we were, but we were also tired. I can't really remember, but I can't imagine we weren't. But I do remember just nothing, nothing. And just seeing this thing. And as I said, my mother pulled off to the right and we looked out the window and there it was. I mean, it looked like a turtle shell. I mean, it really, to me, looked like a turtle shell. It had different, it looked to have different lines or patterns to it. And the right side of it was a different shade than the left. The right seemed to have like goldish tints or like a pewter or a bronze coloring to it. It was not one solid color. It didn't come to a point. It had a big band around the front of it. Almost, it looked like a snake. It looked like a snake skin around the middle of it, like a tire. And it was very, it was fat. It was wide. So the top was very small from the top up and smaller from the top down. The middle was the fatter part of it. And we looked at it. Everything kind of went from quiet. I remember I've talked about little sounds of stones tapping underneath the fender wall of the cars. We came to a stop. After that, everything seemed somewhat muted. Then there was the car lit up. There was an eruption of crickets and frogs and cadets. Did you leave the car or were you in the car the whole time? Well, now I have stayed in the car. I mean, as far as I know, it was a powerful night, man. But we're pretty shaken about for a long time. We're very shaken about that. But I also have weird memories of that night of things that I saw or recall or which are very difficult to talk about. And I don't talk about it for a lot of reasons. I try to stay very palatable. But there were a lot of things that we came back with that night. I do remember being in what looked like a large open area, like a Walmart. If you were empty at a Walmart, just empty big open area, which was much larger than what we saw. And that's why I say to people, people say to me, were you on a craft? I'm like, no, I don't think I was. I've never said that I was. I was somewhere. We were extracted from the vehicle. All four of us remember different clips and moments or fragmented memory of what happened. But we don't know where we were. A lot of time went by when we found ourselves back in the vehicle. My grandmother was now in the driver's seat. The car was off.  When my mother stopped that car, it was running. And the lights were on.  We just sat there and looked at this thing. It was running. So my grandmother found herself in the driver's seat. She goes down a dirt road. She turned around and went back to town because we're only a mile from town, where our house was about seven miles from there. And she went back for help. And we had no idea where she at the time had no idea how much time had passed. And so she went into silks. When she got out of the car, she believes the car doors slammed, which woke me, which was something else. We all came to at different times. I was the second one to wake up from this thing. My brother's head was on my leg. My mother was out. She wasn't responding. So I followed my grandmother into silks. We went into front door. She went right past the clerk. And she went to the back of the store. And got caught up in these bikes and strollers and things that were in there. And I'm grabbing her hand, saying, Nana, Nana, I remember that. And the clerk was looking at my grandmother. She stopped for a minute. I don't remember everything, but she never really asked for help for anything. And we went back outside.   When I'm sorry, when we drove to silks. Yeah. Yeah, she drove. My grandmother, my mother was driving originally. And after the incident, my grandmother was in the driver's seat, which is another thing to me speaks of human error, which is hard for me to get my head around. This is why it's so confusing. Right. So when you went into the store, when you, the silks place, what time of the night was it? It was just before they were closing, probably quarter of 11. Okay. And I don't know silks. I'm assuming it's some kind of department store or something like that. Oh, it's a little mom and pop shop. Okay. And so what exactly, when you went in the door, who was there? Who was still there? Just a guy. Guy running it. One of the owners probably. Okay. And your grandmother just went in and how she, you were saying she got tangled up in something. Yeah, she walked in the front door and she walked right to the back of the store, right to the back. So when you, when you were, and guys, you're welcome to chime in here as we go, but when you were stopped and you had all of this stinking counter, where were you in the car? Which, were you sitting in the car? Yeah, where were you sitting in the car? I was behind the driver's seat. Okay. And my brother was to my right and my grandmother was to the front of my brother and my mother was driving. And when you came back, the first thing you remember, when you, when you first remember, I assume it was already left the space. Yeah, we were already back at silks. My grandmother was already out of the car. So she was the only one awake. Yes. So you were back at silks? Did you start, how could, how did you? Silks store is, you know, you could hit silks from our diner with a Frisbee. Small town. It's right there, yeah. Okay, okay. I didn't know, sounds like you'd been there twice. I didn't get that part of it. So let me, let me ask you this. When you were in this, this thing that seemed like a building that wasn't a spaceship or whatever, did you see these, the other people with you? Did you see them or anyone else in there? And that's a good question too, because I am, like I said, I've got little memories of things. I, I remember hearing voices. I remember hearing my mother's voice crying or calling out for me, as I've said. But then again, I can't swear it was her voice, but I do remember hearing voices. While you stood there? Yeah, actually I was sitting. In a chair or just on the floor? Yeah, I was sitting on something that was barely low to the floor. I had to, this is where it gets really confusing for me. It's hard to digest, because it sounds so bizarre. But, you know, I can't help the memories.  And what I remember seeing, I've never seen before. I never saw it beforehand. I never saw it afterwards. You know what I mean? I remember things vividly, and we all do, you know? And that's what makes it so tough. But do I remember, I remember markings on the floor, like swirl marks. I remember hearing my mother's voices. I remember seeing, we weren't alone there. You know, I remember that, like very well. You were talking about the space that you were in, that you didn't think like a craft or whatever, it was like a building. Smells, sounds, sights, anything you remember. What do you remember about it? I remember seeing a wall that looked glass. It kind of bowed like a coffee can. It was rounded. I remember very tall hallways. How tall? Well, again, I was small, but I'm going to guess maybe 10 to 12 feet high. Were you walking down the hallways, or you just saw them from where you were? I was grabbed by my left arm, and I was kind of not nicely brought from one spot to another. It was very abrupt. They drug you? I don't know.  Yeah, I was grabbed by my left arm, and whoever the individual was was somewhat behind me and moving me forward like this. It took me out of the work. I remember going to the right, took me down a hallway, and when I got to the end of the hallway, I was, it went left again, and I was brought into a room. So were there bricks on the walls, or was it just one color wall or? No, it was all just white. Everything looked white to me. So there was no light? I didn't see a couple lights in the ceiling, where the ceiling met the wall. It almost looked like a fluorescent tube. I remember some carts that reminded me of what we used to put our projector on in Sheffield Centre School. So it was kind of a lot of carts, empty space, singular tube lights. Very big. Nothing solid. I got a question for you. So you know, you know how, and you'll know this, if you get nudged by a horse, you can really feel that it was a horse that nudged you rather than a human being. Yeah, like they feel they have a different rhythm. When you were being moved, what did it feel like was moving you? It felt, I was grabbed hard, hurt. By what? What grabbed you?  It feel like a human hand? Oh, it was, yeah, but it was hard. It was like around my whole arm. So, and it was dark. It was dark in that particular area until I went out in the hallway.  But I can, the area or the spot that where I was grabbed, where these carts were, reminded me a lot of an airplane hangar. And my mother and father were pilots. So that's kind of, I gotta, this is how I put it together, you know. It did remind me of an airplane hangar. But when I was taken out the other side and through this door, and I was abruptly, you know, removed, if you will, that hurt. I don't remember seeing the person for whatever reason. I just remember being nervous, being scared. I remember being escorted and taken from one spot to another. And so when you went through the door, did the door open? Did you open the door? Or was there a door? No, it was just open. It was a very, it was, it was a pretty wide door, I guess, all things considered. But it wasn't the kind that does, that does this number where it swings open? I don't remember. Honestly, I don't remember seeing, I don't remember seeing the door. I remember seeing an opening. And that's where I was taken out. So when you, when you went through the door and you said there's a hall, where did you go?  When you went into the hall, where did you go next? Well, I was escorted. Okay, I was not. Right left street? I went straight and then to the right. And then we went down maybe, I say we, maybe 15 or 20 feet and immediate left. No, no angled cornered stuff. It was lefts and rights. It was very sharp. And it wasn't like high tech. That's another thing that's confusing. So when I got to the end, I was taken to the left and we were taken into a room. And the room I was taken into had a very bowed in glass looking area. You say we, who do you mean? Whoever escorted me. Okay, so, okay. So then when you went to the room with the bowed glass, what happened there? I was sat on a table and I was staring at the glassed in wall. And I, and this is something else too because one minute I'll go from feeling, or at least remembering, I was sitting there, I was cooperating, I was whatever. And then all of a sudden I ran. So I think I went from feeling very nervous to calm, to scared, to I think my feelings were all over the place. And I think that's probably one of the reasons I remember it because it was emotional to me. But I ran. I actually ran out the side of this room into a hallway. And that's when I walked into this large area and I had no idea where to go and I was grabbed again and I was brought back in. I mean, that's as crazy as that freaking sound so that's, that's what happened. You know, I don't know why. I don't know what caused it. I don't know where I was. But, you know, that's what happened. So when the cricket started, did that start when the, did it start slowly or was like a switch coming out or did it gradually start? Someone had, we came out the bridge. It was like someone had flipped the switch off on life itself.  And then lit up and boom, everything just seemed to come to life again. How far away was that other, that orange thing from you when it, when it started? How far away was that? 80 yards, less than a football field. Actually about a football field. It was a lot smaller. It looked smaller. Yeah. And it was over the water. Everything was over water.  The big white sphere was over water. And the orange one was over. It was all three of them over water. What did you all say when you first saw these, these objects? You know, my recollection, I just remember being fixated and staring at it, just locked on it, you know? Excuse me. It was, you know, to see this thing move and to, and then stop. And to witness something like that and to be part of that and just, you know, you're sitting there. What is it? What is it? And at the same time, you kind of know maybe what it is a little bit, but you're, it's, and then it just moves the way it does.  And what did you say after all of this when, when people were waking up and, you know, what do you remember is the first thing that anybody said you said or anybody said to you? Honestly, I don't remember. I don't, I think that we were all just fixated and locked on what was happening. My brother was the one turning his head. My brother was the one going back and forth for a moment there, you know? Because for whatever reason, he, something caught his attention off to the right, which was that orange ball. But for me, I was, I was actually at the time I was looking for the white, that white sphere. And it was really, I think it was my mother that saw the craft first. But the thing about the craft too, the disc, it wasn't like it was hidden that well. It was night, right? I mean, it was like, it was dark, but you could see it. So it was like the shell kind of had a sheen to it. There was a light underneath it. The white ball, you couldn't, you couldn't miss that. But after all of this, after all of these events, what was the first thing that you heard somebody say? I don't remember anyone saying anything. I remember the next thing I remember was going into the silks. And I was calling my grandmother, I was grabbing her hand and she wasn't responding to me, the best of my recollection. She didn't even talk to the clerk. And she went in there to talk to the clerk and she walked right by him and walked right to the back of the store. How do you know she was going to talk to the clerk? What did she say? I'm going to go talk to this guy. She said that she went back for help. And then we're talking the next day, you know, because we went to the diner, we opened up in the morning. And we've talked about this our whole lives, right? Well, she went back to silks for help because no one in the car was responding. And the guy never came out. There was no paramedics. There was no officer. And we just drove home. I don't think any one of us were thinking clearly. It seemed to me like, and my brother has said this, that, you know, to him, he feels that we were, it was like a sodium pentothal or some medication or something that, that, you know, something got into our system, you know, and that's why we all came out of this at a different time.  It wasn't like that for us at all. It was almost like we were drunk. How much time passed between the bridge and when you first remember? Well, we got back to Silks before 11, so they were closing at 11, and we left the diner probably at 8.30 or so. It was just a cross. Yeah. So when you were in these rooms, you felt something grab your arm. Did you see anything, any person, any kind of a person in that entire time? Yeah, I saw, I saw something quite disturbing, you know, so I, you know, I don't know why. Yeah, it looked like a bug or an ant to me with a large football-shaped head, which is not something I talk too much about because, you know, there's no point. Well, and I think the way your memory works at that age, you're going to remember things a certain way, for sure, but as much as you're willing to share with us there, we're certainly willing to listen and I appreciate it. I know that could be disturbing. Yeah, all right. I saw something that looked, it wasn't human, you know, and I've said to myself, well, it wasn't robotic, was it? Was it, you know, genetically engineered?  I keep saying we've got 8 million species. What's up with 8 million in one? You know, I've tried to justify what we saw. I've tried to play with it. I've tried to make sense of it. I've struggled with it, but yeah, I saw something that was quite troubling. Was it tall, short? Well, I was like four and a half, five feet tall. It was bigger than me. It looked like a bug. It had a head like a football and it had stick-like legs like bamboo when I was in Florida.  And I've had it sketched and I've, it hangs in raw as well, but I certainly avoid talking about that because it's probably the only thing I cannot actually, you know, validate in some way.  Maybe there were some, our neurons that our head were affected. You know, I struggle with why I remember these things, why I saw these things. You know, was it clear conscious memory? Was my mind infected by what we saw? Because there were three moving parts. So we were in the middle of all these three moving parts. There was a craft. There was one of the right and one on the left. So if there was some type of a magnetic anomaly, you know, maybe that's why I have the thoughts I do or the visions that I do or, you know, could have been manipulated, but did it ever happen?  Have you had an MRI since that happened? Yeah, I actually have. Did you find, did they find anything that? No, no, my son did too, actually. But not that it mattered. It wasn't there anyway. But, um, yeah, we've, you know, we've, um, that was a car wreck in 2006. Do you remember the color? Do you remember the color of those, of the bug? Do you remember what color it was? Yeah. How many colors was it?  So the football shape, it was like this, this way, or is it like this way? Like a sideways?  So the points came out here on the end like that? It would go like this or it would go like this? The neck and the stem went up the middle of it and it had very stick-like arms and legs and the body of it kind of came to a, like a, like a teardrop. And that's what I remember. Did it communicate? And anyway, talk to you. No, no. I just, I saw two of them actually, they were facing a wall. Their heads were almost into the wall. Did they move? Did they have eyes or what did their eyes look like? Like round, just round, like marbles. So let me, let me just get this straight. So if it's a football, was it like this or was it like this? Like a tip, like the mouth would have been at the tip and the eyes. So it's sideways, in other words, like straight on football. Not, not point, not point up here and point up here, but points on the side. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like if I was holding a football like this, going to throw it in the wall, the face would have been right there. Oh, okay. I got you. That's, like I said, this is the one area that I struggle with because it's like. So it's not the, it's not the big almond shaped eyes or anything like that. No, I didn't see it. No, no. What did their hands look like? Did you see those? You know, I've, I've tried to fill in some things that what I might, what it might have looked like. So to be honest with you, I, I don't really remember a lot of detail. I remember the fear of it. I remember sketching it. I remember I, I drew it and hung up on my class. I'm sorry. On the chalkboard in one of the classes I was in, in fourth grade. And a lot of other kids were drawing stuff too. And mine was the only one that, you know, was a, of something very different, you know. No sound? It didn't make a sound or did it make a sound? Nope. I don't remember that. You know, there's, my brother seems to think that there was a arithmetic feeling, something like that. I don't really remember that too much. But then again, we've all collectively talked about this our whole lives. So, you know, there's a lot of things. So I, we, my brother remembers like I do being on a table somewhere, but we don't talk about that either because it sounds so freaking, you know, tabloid. So. In a document that you have, Massachusetts State document, they call it an off-world incident. What do you think they mean by that? Well, it's funny because even now, we're seeing the off-world that verbiage used in the, in the Pentagon statements now. And so I don't think the governor or the state wanted to run with UFO. So I thought maybe, maybe that term is something that's a little more palatable to them or something that maybe NASA's using or Bigelow Aerospace, wherever whoever's working on this stuff, all those rockets or whatever spacecraft. I think it's a more readily used term than UFO. I think UFO is kind of tabloid anyway. But off-world, I don't think that they had any idea where it came from or what it was. There were, obviously, when you've got this ball of light, and that's what I remember more than anything was this ball of light, you know, and the way it just moved. What do you think it was? What do you think it was?  Okay, so, you know, I really have a hard time with some of this, but it is what it is, right? I think that, and this is now, you know, going, you know, looking at it, you know, the Housatonic River was some of the most polluted water in America. It was so toxic. People were fishing out of there, dogs drinking the water, corn grows an enormous height there. There's something wrong with that water. There's something, and there always has been, and I think anybody who knows the area knows it's a very toxic area, and these things are all over water. You know, the ball was over water, the orange was over water, the craft was over water. There seems to be a connection to water. So I think whatever these cylinders were, had something to do with possibly drawing water, testing water, extracting some water, had something to do with water, you know, and I think that they were working in conjunction with the disc that was, we saw further on down the road. They're much smaller. I mean, the disc itself was like 100 yards or so. It was huge. And then again, I was smaller. Everything seems bigger, but I spoke with the Jan Green, and she kind of remembers it the same way. So there, nothing was really moving too quickly. Everything was kind of moving at a slower pace, but then again, I think we were moving at a slower pace too. Everything was muted. Was what we remember really happening in real time? Was it not happening in real time? I mean, there's so many frigging things to think about. You know what I mean? What about those things that were shooting off, those rods you talked about? Now that, there was only, I believe, two, but when the thing rose up, there was like rods that came down, and they weren't from the bottom of it. They were like from the sides of it. And it just went poles, like really direct poles. And there was just for a moment or two. And then I've said, well, maybe there, you know, did I see a reflection? Was it a reflection of this thing off the water? You know, the windows were open. It wasn't gleam off the window. You know, there was, again, there's water. There's light. My grandmother said there was a bleed of light earlier underneath the planks of the bridge. So, you know, was it also given off light? And if it was, and that would make sense, that it wasn't actually light that it was given off? Well, you know, could it have been a reflection? But then if it was a reflection, it had to be light to begin with.  And they were very boom. And then they either went up or just dissolved and the thing rose. So you said the thing, you're talking about the craft or the other, or the balls of light. The craft, those two, what rose after the two spikes went down? Oh, the light, the sphere. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The large one never moved, I remember. People who hear this might be thinking to themselves, so there was an alien spacecraft, you were abducted by aliens. If somebody thinks that, do you think they're right to think that? Thinking something else. No, I've never once said I was abducted by aliens. You know, we encountered something, we were part of something surreal, something, and in some ways, I feel like it was a privilege to see what I did. It changed my views on a lot of things. You know, I've always, I've lost my faith, if that makes any sense. I don't think that, you know, I think that we all come from, you know, we're all part of the bigger picture. You know, I think that we have about 8 million species on this planet, you know, they're coming from somewhere. To me, Earth is our galaxy's arc. And we're made up of a lot of different species from a lot of different places. And maybe there's, you know, with a tainted water, maybe there's a reason that, nobody's going to survive a tainted water, right? So maybe there's an interest in that. Maybe there was something, life that was being taken somewhere else. Maybe there was life that was brought down. I don't know. But, you know, to, there was definitely, seemed to be some type of, there was definitely an interest, whether it was a mining interest of some kind, but I think that we were at the wrong place at the wrong time. And we were affected by this.  And maybe that's where we were. Maybe there was a mixture of government working with some, you know, some species. I don't know. Maybe there was a, I don't know. Let me ask you this. Do you, do you think you feel that way because you saw that and somehow were given that information, but it's just kind of stuck back there. And that's what that feeling is. Because that's pretty clear. I've got a lot of ideas and thoughts, right? And I wonder where they come from because they're not like other people that I talk to, which is why I keep some distance in the field to begin with. I, yeah, I, God, I'll tell you, after this happened, I'm going to answer this. I'm going to answer that by, by explaining something. After that happened, my mother had a stable, not our, it's still there to this day.  I was, felt like I was off my path, you know, that I was meant for something else. I didn't belong there. That, I mean, this kind of like separated me from the other kids too, because I didn't want to throw the ball around and I wasn't interested in that anymore.  You know, I kind of stayed to myself a little bit, you know, and I wanted my camera and so I was going to get a picture of it. This happened again. And they're also very, you know, felt to some scrutiny and that kind of thing at the diner. So we were outsiders to begin with, you know, and it was difficult. My mom's single, single mom at the time. And, you know, she certainly couldn't defend herself against a 250 pound drunk redneck and suspenders, right? So it got kind of tough, you know.  But then again, it was kind of like we get your hair cut, right?  And so when there's only a handful of people in there, you start talking about what happened again. And of course reports were coming over the radio. So our diner became very known for what happened. And as much as we at the time tried to stop talking about it because it wasn't doing anybody any good, you couldn't really it was, like I said before, you can't jump into this with one foot, right? So the damage was done for lack of a better word. And so you had to talk about it. You had to try to clarify. But you can't clarify something when you don't really know what happened, you know. And so it's been troubling.  But at the same time, you know, I look at the fact we're making some form of modern day history.  And a lot of other people in town are able to talk about it and not feel so victimized by it or scrutinized. You know, there's a part there. I mean, for us, that's, for me, that's enough, you know. I do think I need to write a book to preserve what happened. But then again, I get two parts where I don't know what to write because I don't know what really happened. If that makes sense. So I got caught up with that. And I don't want to fill into blanks, you know. But I can say in all, certainly we were removed from the car. We were taken somewhere. You know, we were there for hours. Who took us from the car? I don't know. The car was running. When we stopped, it was off. We got in it. My mother and grandmother were reversed. You know, we saw stuff. I can't, you know, for life, for me, make sense of, you know. So it is what it is, I guess.  So I know it's, it probably never gets less stressful. But is there anything else? Is there anything that we haven't heard or somebody else may not have heard that you want to share? I mean, just. Oh, gosh, it's hard. Well, yeah, I guess the, you know, looking at the positives, you know, looking what this has done for the topic, I guess.  You know, we were inducted in the history in the state of Massachusetts. You know, we've got two citations from the governor. Here's something that this has to do with where we stand or what we feel, how we feel that we've at least gotten to a point where, you know, this wasn't for nothing. You know, the case did go to the U.N. They did get mentioned at the United Nations in support of 33, 426. And there's a display in the Roswell Museum about that part of it. We were approached by an attorney in Manchester, Connecticut. His name was Robert Butchman. And he was working with Mufon at the time. I had no idea what Mufon was. And this was in the late 80s. And he was the public relations director. And I was working with Mohammed Rahman and the president of the Parasocology Society. And, you know, they were looking at the Hudson River Valley case. And because of Housatonic crafts on the Housatonic River were also over water. There was a connection there. My dad was a lawyer and a politician and I'm here at the time, acting there. And so he was like, well, would you mind if we mentioned your case in conjunction with this particular Hudson River Valley case to show some, you know, that you're a, you know, you're not in long care of vehicle maintenance.  And of course, about 12 years later, he lost his life on the same date, October 7th. And that was something that really fueled interest with the Historical Society and some other people in the area to pay tribute back to him by looking at this further. And that's kind of how the whole thing snowballed and got to your point where it was. That part of it's always lost, you know. So for me, when the monument was unveiled and the whole thing I dedicated the date of my late father. And now it's more like, hey, we've got a tourist spot now. Let's move the monument out. And, you know, we could put our hot dog wagons in there. And you've got all these other people running around saying, well, I saw it too, you know. And I got hit by a light.  You know, it gets turned into a circus. When in fact, it wasn't an easy thing to go through. You know, we've been talking about this for our whole lives.  You know, but it's made for a strong family. You know, we've got a very strong family. I would imagine it's an emotional soup that whole night.  I mean, I doubt you had one feeling, but if you had one, that's okay too. What did you feel like that night? Inspired, in some respects. You know, I remember just being completely still and just, you know, awestruck. I don't remember feeling sick or happy. I just, emotionalist maybe, just kind of, kind of like my God, you know. I mean, that's what it was like. I wasn't scared of anything. I might, maybe I was too young to be scared. I don't know, but I wasn't scared at all. I was more intrigued. I remember seeing the thing just kind of stay still and then moved in the first one. You know, it actually, I remember at one point, the lowering, but I mean, it was, it was, it was like a bubble, you know, if you're like a little bubble as a kid, you know, those little bubbles, it's what it looked like. A bubble with a light, it was like a two-watt mold and it was solid. It was like a sphere and this is the thing too. It didn't like bleed light off the piece itself. It was almost like if you had a perfectly round light bulb and it was just bright and intense and self-contained, you know, like if it was looking at it, you could almost look like a moon, you know what I mean? Not that it's given off light, that it's just self-contained that way. I mean, you know, there's, I've thought back and gone, yeah, it could have looked like a moon, you know, that locked in that contained, you know, way. So it wasn't, you know, like a sloppy type of mix of light and whatever. It was very definitive. It was very... Thanks. I know you've looked like you've had something you wanted to ask a couple of times. What do you got? Yeah, thanks, Scott. And Tom, thanks for doing this, by the way. This is something a lot of people would absolutely refuse to do. And I think there's going to be a lot of people that really appreciate it.  So I just wanted to say I appreciate it to begin with. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Our pleasure, for sure. And I wanted to ask, you were pretty close to a lot of these forces that were on your property when you were nine. Yeah, I wrote them, a lot of them. Did they treat you differently after everything happened? Okay, I'll let my mom answer that one. If that's okay, she's down here. But I've always had a unique... That's a really good question. Not so much with the horses, although there was one incident with the horse where my brother, I'll tell you, my brother was on a horse, lost the reins, and the thing was going at a full gallop. And he was probably, he was like six, and was going to fall off. And I ran right in front of the horse and put my hands up, and it just stopped in its tracks. Not long after that, I had a raccoon come up to me in my family on our, near our carriage house. Totally wild, wild raccoon? Wild raccoon. And it came in the house and sat near the fireplace. And I feed it once in a while, go back out the carriage house. Our neighbor eventually shot it, because it was eating its corn.  Would you mind if we met your mother? Mom, you okay? Yeah. Yeah. You ready? Yeah. Hello. Hey. Hello. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. How are you? I'm Scott, Chase. I'm Frank. I'm Chase. You? Oh, Scott, your name's on there, okay? Yes, Scott. Okay. There's Mark. Mark, good to meet you. Greg, good to meet you. There's Greg. We talked on the phone earlier. Oh, did we? Okay. Yes, I know we talked. I didn't know who. Yes. Yeah, I'm the guy. Well, you look, and I'm sure your son says this, you look just as pretty on this as you did in the Netflix special. Well, you just made my dad. Thank you. Yeah. You were my, when I saw you on the show, I was, I just said, we got to talk to these people, because your everything was just right on, spot on, everything you said. I don't know what I could possibly add that Thomas hasn't covered, unless you have something you wanted to ask me, like after the, after the incident or something like that, which I probably could answer better than Thomas. Of course, I'm dressed up as a horseman now. I heard you. Yeah, I'm heard that. Yes. So, if I could ask you a question, well, well, Tom has given us lots of details. He had a nine year old memory, but you're not nine. Could you tell us just what you saw, just five minutes? Just what you saw personally, because I think you were edited a lot. Any other? You mean with the incident? Yes, ma'am, with the incident. Oh, yeah. Actually, everything Thomas had told you was exactly right.  And actually it was, I have a little different spin on it in a way that I really believe we were privileged to experience something that was a phenomenon. And I don't look at it as necessarily a negative. It was at the time, it was awe-inspiring. It was, let me see, jaw-dropping when you see something like that. But I also think that we were fortunate enough with a lot of other people to be in the right place at the right time to actually see something that very few people actually have the opportunity to experience. And so as disturbing as it was at the time, I feel that in hindsight, which is always not always the best way to look at things, but in hindsight, I think that we were fortunate, along with about several hundred other people who had an experience also, we weren't the only people. But I think it's something that has stayed with us for a long time. It's 51 years old, actually, when that's remarkable when you think about it. But I also wanted to add that I give Thomas all the credit in the world for spearheading this thing to come into light again, because all the people that are still remaining that were living in the town of that area had to keep quiet all this time. And when he went back and revisited us, all of a sudden, now they're coming out of the woodwork or closet as it were, and talking about their experiences. And in lieu of the news lately, and we see that now the government's going to release a lot of things that have been hush-hushed for 50-plus years, I think it gives it a lot more credibility and a lot of skeptics, I think I'm thinking twice about it to quite frankly, as to the genuineness of it. Chase, did your questions, were they, did you have some? A couple of questions for Tom, but I also wanted to ask you, did you have a similar experience of traveling to another place? I'm sorry, did I what? Here. I think he's asking for your mom about the experience traveling. Oh no, actually, this is why I don't add a whole lot to what Tom has already told you, because once the car lit up, I have very little memory till we got to Silks. That's my next memory. And so no, I don't have that experience of traveling at all. If I did, I have actually no memory of it. On the other hand, I don't think I probably did. I don't really know. Well, what about when it first started, we all got into the bridge when the whole thing started? What is your side? You explain it to us this time. We heard Tom's version. Let's hear your, we'd love to hear your version of it. Well, I really, as I said, Tom explained everything beautifully, but the thing I think I remember the most at the very beginning of the incident was the bridge and the lights flashing through the slats in the bridge. I remember that very well. It's sort of a heads up something's coming. You know, I remember the lights, I remember the seeing the ship, actually. And Tom described that very accurately, by the way, I... How would you describe it? You tell us what you saw. It was a turtle shape type of thing with a middle band around it. There were lights under it. It was huge. How big would you say huge once? I'm not gonna be good at this. Because I remember it being big when I was really young. No, I would say like a football field. Would you go with it? Would you say it would fit in a dollar general or it would fit in like a more superstar? That's a good one. Who's dollar general? Probably Walmart. I think it was easily that size. I would have to go with that over the dollar general hand. I remember the dead silence. I mean, that was... You know, recently, not too long ago, what was it, two or three years ago? We had the full eclipse. Okay. Well, I remember we were all together watching the eclipse. And just as the sun and moon kind of collided, covered each other, I should say, everything was quiet. It wasn't a sound. It wasn't a chirp. It wasn't a cricket. It wasn't any sound whatsoever. And then once it passed over, it came again. It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I think that's thrilling. I don't see that's frightening. I think that's thrilling. I really do. And that's... I remember that vividly. And then, you know, next... I don't remember after that I was out. Do you remember any smells or... No, I don't. I do not remember any smells at all. These sales? Other than sound of nature, because this is a tremendously rural area. So, I mean, just the normal sounds you would hear on a hot summer night. Did you see the rods as well that Tom was talking about? Yes. Yes, I did. And where did those go? Just into the ground and stay? Or what happened to those? I'm trying to think 51 years back. I don't know how many of us... I just saw them for a moment and I'm like, it disappeared again. But you were also driving, so I don't know. I was busy driving. That's true. And I was also... It's hard to take it all in when you're looking at something that's off-world, if you want to call it that. Well, did the car stop when you were driving or did you stop the car in the breeze? I stopped the car.  Then I remember I pulled over to the car. Why did you do that? Because things were happening and I was a little rattled. And I wanted to pull off to the side and actually see, believe what I was busy seeing, actually. So you saw that and then you pulled over? Yes. Okay. But do you remember the light coming in the car? Oh, yeah. That I remember very well. It was like an explosion inside the car of light and it was awe-inspiring. That's when I lost it. I don't remember anything else. That's the last memory I have, actually. Well, remember when you were talking about how it sounded like things got tight?  Tom said underwater, but you said it got kind of the... I guess the atmosphere, you'd say it got kind of weird like you're underwater. Did you try to talk during that or was anybody talking during that to you? Well, I think we were just fixated on what was going on around us at the time. In fact, I know we were. With the boys in the back, were you turning around trying to see what they were doing? Were you worried about them or were they yelling or making any noise at all? No, actually not. And the things that happened after the bridge happened rather rapidly, so you didn't have a chance to turn around. We were reacting rather than... You're reacting to the situation. And I didn't have time to even turn around and say, okay, I was sure they were going to be, I guess, but no, I didn't. Did you have any feeling that you needed to do something or you wanted to do and buy something? Anything, like you needed to leave or you needed to go somewhere or you needed or didn't feel like something was...  Just was in the moments at the time and I wanted to observe and experience it. I mean, I wasn't afraid. The fear wasn't ended at all. And to this day, when I think back about it, I don't think we were in harm's way, actually. We were experiencing something that was very unusual to say the least. Why do you feel like you weren't in harm's way? What makes you feel like that now? Because we weren't really harmed. We weren't harmed, actually. I mean, whatever it was, and it would probably be a long time before we ever really know what really it was. Nobody was injured. No, nothing was destroyed. Not even the landscape wasn't destroyed. So, I think my feeling was correct that we weren't in harm's way at all. But it was frightening at the time, yes. As a matter of fact, I think for several days afterwards, we probably pinched ourselves to try to find out whether we really were dreaming or what. But that wasn't the case, of course. We kind of walked around in a little bit of a day. It's, I guess, as close as I could come to it mentally. Did you get the feeling that you saw a spaceship, or did you? Yes, I did. And actually, I believe I have seen two UFOs since then. One in Louisiana and one in Florida. And I was with other people at the same time. Not this kind of encounter. But I do remember looking up and everybody was saying, wow, what is that? And it was there one minute and took off the next. And so, and you have to remember, UFO is only an unidentified flying object. It doesn't necessarily need something weird, you know? So, I'm not afraid to use the phrase. A lot of people are, but I'm not. Me, it just covers it. Did you have a similar experience with religion where you started to doubt what was actually going on, like Tom did? With religion? No. Yes, ma'am. I don't. I believe that we make creation much too small. We try to make everything reduced down to something that we can understand. And I think it's much larger than that. I think just with the galaxies and everything that we were being discovered almost on a daily basis, practically. I don't at all. I think we make, we limit what the creation actually is. I think it's much larger and bigger and more wonderful than we probably know. Have you always felt that way? Excuse me? Have you always felt that way? Or is this something? Yes, I have. I have. And this just magnified it a little bit, I guess. I hate to break in like this, but if I don't go, take a pee. Let's break for five minutes. Let's literally come back and let's just leave everything on and come back in five minutes. That works for me. Thank you. I'm just going to go on mute. So has this whole thing been weird for you? Oh, a little bit. I'm one of the people, actually, that didn't speak up about a lot of things. So I'm here to support Thomas and his efforts and for history at this point, at anyone at this point. But this is only the second time I've spoken about it in the media, although I did work for radio station for years, so I should be used to it, I suppose. What was it? With all that going on, what was the part that scared you? Was there anything that actually scared you about all that? I really don't think I was ever scared. I think I was just overwhelmed off. It struck, basically. I really don't think I was ever afraid. I'm not sure anybody in my family was at that point, to be honest with you. With something like that, you don't have time to get scared, probably. But you know, that kind of thing. Is there one part that you always think about when you think about it, you ever wake up and go, wow, I remember that part of it, or does something, anything that recolors? I always think of the bridge, and the lights coming through the slats of the bridge, I always remember that. But I'm also a covered bridge fan, so I would. That's good. That's good. I'm glad we can cut a little bit. I think this was in the shot when I sat down. Yeah, we're all show up top, as well. I think we're all wearing shorts. Look at Mark. That's funny. Any good, any good. That's what they do on the five, which I do watch. That's true. I've been on CNN, and you're sitting across the table from a guy in a great coat, and all that.  So Chase, excuse me, I'm sorry. Chase, what were you going to ask? Yeah, please. Yeah, well thank you for coming on, and we were hoping if we could just ask Tom two or three questions, and we'll wrap this thing. Okay, let me give him back to the chair, okay? Thank you, ma'am, for being with us. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's a great day to meet you. We really appreciate it. Thank you. My pleasure. All right, so what do you got? So Tom, I just wanted to follow up. I didn't get to ask you very much tonight, but again, I appreciate you coming on, and I think there's going to be, I don't think it's a stretch to say millions of people who appreciate you doing this for everybody, and just having the balls to come on the show, especially facing four behavior profilers at the same time, which would give most people a heart attack, I think. I'm all right. I mean, just the first time I talked to Greg Hartley on the phone, I was nervous. So, and I was, so, but I wanted to say thanks, and just maybe give you a follow-up question or two here. Yeah, please, you know, absolutely. When you were nine, we talked about how the horses started, you know, there was something that changed, or something that was different for you there with the animals. And I wanted to ask, who was one of your good friends when you were nine, like a neighbor or somebody you hung out with a lot? Well, to be honest with you, it was probably the Linda Farrell who lived upstairs over our diner, who I miraculously just ran into about a year ago and she contacted me on Facebook, and she remembered everything because the stuff that came over the radio should be in the diner. And as far as good friends back then, yeah, two twins, Joe and Steve, always you were very good friends of mine. One of them was found drowned at Lake Mansfield.  And then of course, the girls I walked to school with, you know, who lived on my street, Gina and Marisa Paul, Marisa Paul. I still stay in touch with them to this day. They were witnesses to this thing. They also gave testimony. They were big horse people. They had snowmobiles. We used to bomb around in the snowmobiles back in the day. You were able to keep those relationships with the people you were already very close to. You had some run-ins outside of that, but those relationships stuck really close and it was, they stayed pretty much close to you. Well, it was made in Great Barrington. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there was the heirs. Actually, there's three family members. The last name is heirs and they were witnesses. They could have been on the show too, but they, they didn't have them on it either. There was a lot more witnesses that didn't get on that show. There's a judge, Kevin Titus, who actually sealed the documents. He was actually shot for the show. They cut him. So I don't really know what happened there. I mean, there were so many other people that could have added something and take, take the binder, the binder. They showed the Great Barrington binder, the officer opening up the binder and say, oh, there weren't only two incidents. And one of them was the garbage or something, right? The beer cans. Beer cans, okay. Well, this was a holiday weekend with people drinking and over and all the police department was getting calls, WSBS was getting calls, and there was no page in the binder. But does that strike you as a little bit odd? I mean, all they had to do was click the binder, take the page out and shut it for the show or whatever, or there was never put it in the beginning with. But that to me was like, are you kidding me? And then even Sheffield's Galata's father had gone out looking for, with Eddie, his son to see if they could spot something. That's how much it drove the Sheffield Police Department to go look for something. And yet the bigger town three miles down the road only had something in there about beer cans. Come on. But the episode as a whole, I think, did a lot of good. It's not just another UFO story. This is beyond that. It's an experience story. It's, yeah, and it's... Lots of people. And it's documented. It's documented. So, Tom, the only other question I wanted to ask you is with everything that's coming out, this is something that lots of people saw. And the governors verified this. It's been verified by the Historical Society. There's just a mass amount of evidence here to support all of this stuff. And I can tell you, I have probably haven't been doing this as long as Greg, but I've been doing this a long time. And I just wanted to ask you, is there something that maybe happened during your experience when you were out in the car and you don't have to say what it is, but is there something that you still don't feel comfortable talking about? Absolutely. It looked to me that way. No question. Okay. And the reason I don't want to go there is because right now we have the support of the governor. I have the support of the lieutenant governor. We have the support of historians, judges, bankers. And I have a responsibility to them too, not to make them look silly. And I have a read to that, if that makes sense. And I respect that. My father was in office. And if someone said, hey, listen, we're going to go on a limb for you. We're going to go the extra mile. We know this happened. Your family was key in this. And we are going to vote on this thing. And if one of the questions that they have or concerns that they have is how are you going to handle it afterwards? Do we have your God's honest truth? Would you mind signing something for us that you will not use verbage? You will not handle this in a way that we feel it needs to be. A more grounded fashion. And if you all agree to do that, then I think we can get this thing pushed through. And so for me to start going down a path or being too particular over things, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, I'm not going to betray their trust. And I gave them my word. I've signed something, saying I'll handle things a certain, go too far. But yes, there are lots of things, I remember. And again, I struggle with that part of it anyway. And that's probably the one area that I'm more confused about. So I have mixed feelings about it. I'm conflicted. I know what happened. My brother remembers it too. My brother had a club foot, by the way. He had a brace on his right foot. And he remembers attention being put to his club foot. Why? I don't know. So there's little things like that. That, you know, that do I want to talk about it? Yeah, you know, probably, but is it necessary? No, you know, not at the end of the day. Scott, you're on mute. So what if I stopped recording? Would you tell us about it? Because you can see where it says recording up there when I stop. And hand to God, I promise you, on video, we won't, we won't release that we won't do anything with that.  Me too. I'm just like on the edge. They're going, holy, because when soon as, if we got off of here, they're going to go, what the hell? So I'm going to stop recording. So if you just feel like it, you can. If I do starting, you'll know if I was just starting. And we can, we can give Tom a preview of what we're going to do in the after show when we analyze this right now. Hey, it's your, you know, I, I, uh, I agree to it. You, whatever you guys want to run or however you want it. Okay. I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop. I mean, that's up to you. Okay. I'm going to stop recording. So if you, so if you'll tell us about it, hand to God, I won't record this note. We promised you that. We'll, we'll cut this out with the, um, no. Here we go.


Hi, I'm Ed Anna from Apogee, and I remember to introduce myself. I apparently had forgotten to do that on Fridays, excuse me, on the Monday lightning talk. So we've got a bunch of folks up here, and there's a reason for that, because what we're going to be talking about is the new route services capability in Cloud Foundry, and that's been a collaborative effort. It's involved a lot of the work that Pivotal has done on it over the last year, and Apogee has been privileged to help collaborate on that, bring a lot of API management use cases to the table, and do the first implementation of API management integrated into Cloud Foundry by way of route services. So when we planned this session, we wanted to really give you kind of an overview of what APIs and API management within Cloud Foundry is all about, and show you how it works, and then have some real-world use cases based on what the team from GE Digital has done with it. So as a consequence, we've got a content-packed session here that we're going to try to race through.  It is a contract. It's how software talks to other software. We all sort of know aspirationally what, why we use APIs. They should be straight, simple, straightforward to use. You know, specifically in the context of this, we're talking about web APIs. Interesting thing, statistic that I saw was that over half of developers today are actually producing web APIs that other developers are integrating. So web APIs are probably something that most of you in this room are actually, are actively coding software for. In terms of what goes into modern APIs, you know, you can debate this, you know, day in and day out. Over at Apogee, we do that quite a bit. Most of our customers are planning APIs, API initiatives, programs in some form, designing their APIs. You know, beyond the basics, most people today tend to agree that they should be JSON-based. If you're still building XML APIs in 2016, you're probably, well, you probably have a good reason for it, but I don't know what that is. It's probably because somebody made you do it. You know, generally people are sort of converging around OAuth and so forth around that. What's the challenge? So a lot of what we talk about here at the conference is about scaling, you know, scaling the execution of your software, of your workloads and so on. But there's another challenge in scaling, which is scaling the adoption of your software, being able to connect it to your users in the various locations that they might be operating from, perhaps from mobile applications running on their phones or it might be the businesses that your company partners with where you have to interchange data and so forth. So, you know, as you're probably, you know, dealing with as you look to solve that, APIs are the mechanism by which you do that. And so this is all a, you know, sort of a setup for the fact that API development is probably a big part of what you're building within Cloud Foundry. And so when we started talking to Pivotal about this really about 18 months ago, you know, we said there needs to be some way of deeply embedding the API management capabilities that make this all possible in an elegant way into Cloud Foundry that is part of your application life cycle. And route services emerged out of those conversations as a way to do that seamless integration. So with that in mind, let me turn things over to Richard. Thanks, Ed. I'm Richard Sarota. I work at Pivotal. I'm a recovering vice president from somewhere else. I want to talk to you today a little bit about route services and the importance of those. And what we've built around those specifically to help you actually inject something into the route path. Now, I'll make a quick confession. I occasionally drive to work to Seattle and you zone out for a few minutes, right? You're listening to music, you're listening to a podcast. I don't know, I could have run over a duck, missed a tornado. Like you're completely in the zone and you get to work and you realize you, you know, something just happened because the route kind of gets boring over time. What I found interesting with route services is there's a lot that goes on in a route and you take that stuff for granted.  And what we do with route services is actually making that commute a little more interesting. So with route services, actually making it possible to inject something into that request path. So it's not just traffic coming into the system. It's being able to do some things with it along the way. We'll talk about some examples and obviously see a really nice demonstration of that. But this also gives a pretty cool opportunity for marketplace services. Not just things you may buy from Apigee or others, but even doing user-defined things. Make up your own service. Be able to introduce that within your organization and add it as a broker so that anybody else can consume your particular service and we'll talk about some examples. The whole point of all of this is developers need to be going faster. I don't want to open up a ticket and beg the poor API management administrator to add a policy for me and deploy my service. That is not making me go faster. That's making me frustrated. So instead, the whole idea should be how am I helping developers self-service their way into more realistic, high-functioning applications? If I'm not meeting that goal, then we're not doing the right things. So we take that step back and we talk about a route. And again, route can be very unsexy, you know, it just kind of magically happens. But a lot of stuff happens on the route. I mean, this is how do things come in and go to my application? And in these sort of very dynamic container-driven solutions, that is not trivial. Containers are coming and going. I'm scaling instantaneously. And then traffic is magically finding its way to the right place. That's awesome stuff. There's a lot of smarts that happen underneath the covers. And that's why you need these sort of dynamic capability, is because routes are changing constantly, because what's underneath the covers changes. So how do I point to the right things? That matters a lot. And developers have some control. You can use your CF commands and create routes and bind routes to a service and do wild card routes. You can do a number of pretty cool things that, frankly, I didn't even realize until a few weeks ago. So a lot of really interesting things you can do with a particular route. The key, though, is that how do I do something even more interesting with that? So when you look at route services, three kind of core use cases we've thought about, is as we think about performance and reliability. How am I doing things around caching? How can I inject caching into a route and not have things go all the way down to the service? Be able to pull some things back out, pull some things from my cache, increase the performance of my app, even help reliability if downstream I'm getting pummeled, my cache can get pummeled instead. Same with as you think about processing data. Imagine adding a route service that throws everything in Amazon Kinesis because I'm doing some streaming analytics of the request that come in. Be able to add some things for more dynamic tracing. Add a route for a few minutes, a route service, because you're trying to instrument a service or trace it, and then take it back off. I didn't even have to touch my service. So you're doing some of these things, these sort of cross-cutting capabilities across your services without actually touching the service itself, which is pretty great. And same with things like security. When I'm using something like API management, how am I putting authorization against some of these services without asking my developer to keep doing their own authorization scheme? I have not met many developers, including myself, who are good at doing authorization or authentication. I should be outsourcing that to some sort of cross-cutting aspect-oriented thing in my system. That's where API management is really helpful. If we look at the experience and the operator experience, really pretty straightforward. Give me a service, add something as a service broker, be able to add that, create the service plans, and as we think about things like API management again, I could have a plan that says, here's a plan for authorization. Here's a plan for caching. Here's a plan for something else. And as a developer, I'm just binding my service to that particular route and things are magically then going to happen for everything in that request path. The developer, obviously, I mean, this is what really gets to be exciting stuff, is developer, you know, once the operator sets this up, developer's good to go. CF marketplace, there's all my services, whether it's MySQL or Rabbit or Apigee, these are all going to be route services I can consume. And then I'm just doing create user-provided service, passing in the service I want to use, what's the route I'm going to refer to, and then bind it. With that, I'm done and everything's instantaneously going to hook up. There's no additional work I have to do. And again, I'm doing this in a couple of different models. I can do things very straightforward in this kind of simple model where I'm just going to put an appliance even. I could stick a virtual appliance in front of Cloud Foundry and in this case, everything goes through. And you may want that, where every bit of traffic goes through that particular route service. And, you know, things that don't have anything to do, that's fine, it just flows through. Users, customers, developers can still bind their routes to part of this, but gives a very straightforward solution. Or you can be more dynamic, where traffic is inspected once it comes into the Cloud Controller. And if it matches the route, it goes back through the route service, does whatever that route service does and comes back through. That can be great if you don't want all traffic to go through. You have a number of different options and what's really great too is that you can do user-defined versions of this. You do not have to buy commercial software, however awesome it is. I can do whatever I'd like here. And hook this up to my in-house system. I can hook it up to my in-house instrumentation or my preferred caching tool or whatever. That's really great that I don't have to necessarily wait to see what someone ships. I can build it myself. Sure you're talking to the right one. Exactly. Yeah, I don't think this will pick up audio. So we've talked about API management a little bit in terms of what we think one of the great uses for route services is. So what is API management? Well, when you look at the challenge of going and making APIs available, there's a whole set of what we call non-functional requirements that are part of APIs. A lot of people go and say, you know, API management. I know how to build an API. I understand restful API design and so on. You know, what exactly is API management? Why do I need it?  And the first is being able to have consistent security across all your APIs. And, you know, we see this quite a bit at Apigee where sort of basically inconsistent authentication strategies and so on across APIs.  It's that one other API that somebody spun up, even for something completely benign, like maybe even just doing autocomplete or something that suddenly people find us an attack vector. It's having the analytics visibility. And this is from both operational analytics in terms of how your APIs are performing, as well as oftentimes, as Richard was talking about, extracting a whole bunch of data out of the API stream for doing business analytics. And then finally, it's enabling your ecosystem of developers, being able to have, you know, every developer able to go and publish their APIs into a standard location that other developers can go to to find out information, documentation for the APIs, and being able to come and learn how to use these APIs in, you know, with interactive documentation that makes it very easy for you to try out API calls and so on. And so this is a lot of, you know, what goes into having successful API strategy. Quick aside for, you know, Apigee, we've done this for a lot of companies and many of the folks in the audience here are from organizations that are using Apigee for doing this stuff. So what the integration with Cloud Foundry looks like really is sort of the textbook example of how route services can work. And basically what we do is, you know, we expose Apigee's API management platform as a tile within the Cloud Foundry marketplace. If you're not using Pivotal Cloud Foundry, you can use, you can do this via manual install and there's instructions on GitHub how to do it. But once you do that, it's going to bind a route that causes your inbound API traffic to go into Apigee where we're able to do things like apply policies for security purposes or data transformation purposes. You know, I said earlier it would be great. Everybody should be building their APIs using, you know, JSON and so on. But there's a lot of legacy APIs and a lot of legacy application clients that were designed to communicate in older protocols and so on. Part of what API management lets you also do is transform those requests from perhaps the way they were originally designed to the way you want to support them now. And the nice thing about this is it's all really designed to be natively integrated into your workflow. And so what you're going to see in a minute is Carlos is going to step up and show you a demonstration where you're able to go and see that this is really seamless. The goal of this is to make sure that every app that you build, every API you expose, basically has all of these configuration options preset up, that it's not one of these things where some developer goes and says, oh, you know, I forgot to set up the authentication mechanism. Oops. You know, you don't want that to be happening. So that in mind. Here you go, Carlos. All right, thanks. Can we get the... There we go. All right, awesome. I only have two hands, so I can't hold the mic and do this at the same time. So this is the part where really we only need a shell script to do this, but I'm up to add a little bit of comic relief as we do it. Let's look at exactly what we talked about in terms of a developer experience. We'll hit the marketplace and see that there's an Apigee Edge service there. So what I'll do is simply create an instance of that. And I'm passing in a little bit of configuration so it knows who I am and what part of Apigee I'm going to talk to. So now that I have that, I've got a service available that I can use, demo edge right there. I have an app out here running, which is a simple little API. It's kind of similar to the old finger protocol if you want, where you can hit a URL, receive a little bit of information. So now as a developer, I've got this up and running, but I haven't really thought about authentication or anything like that. So the next step is to do a bind of throughout service. And I simply pass in, if you saw the demo yesterday, this is the same stuff. The result's going to be slightly different, but we'll pass this in. It's going to warn me that it might alter what happens with the traffic, which is kind of what I expect. So that's it. Now I can still hit this endpoint. Same thing happens. It doesn't appear to be any different. But if I come over to the Apigee side of the world and take a look at what I have, I have a new proxy out here that's been created automatically. And if I come in and look at what this has in it, I can see that there's actually some policies that have already been defined. This is different from what we did yesterday a little bit. We've exposed an open API specification from that app. And the service broker is smart enough to look for that and look for any kind of definitions about what I have in terms of routes or paths in there. So I can see that I've got a cache on the git side and I've actually got some security on the post side. So I'm requiring some sort of identification on that now. So if I turn on trace, I can kind of see what's happening with this traffic. And if I hit this fast enough, I should see there. Now I've got a little bit of traffic protection thrown on it. From a developer experience, super simple to do. From a consumer side, I haven't changed the way the consumer interacts with that at all. So I still share the same URL with them and all that stuff. And I get, you know, the benefit of understanding how people are using things and seeing that, you know, we're hitting a cache or we're populating a cache. All of that great stuff comes along for free. And that's it. See, it could have been a shell script. So, good morning. So Lote and I will spend probably about next 10 minutes or so to share with you about the API management use cases with the predicts in G-digital. So just a little bit back around myself. So my name is Kevin Yan. I'm a software architect working a predicts platform team in G-digital. So please show your hand. Have you heard about predicts? Oh, great. Thanks. So there's a talk yesterday, Mark Thomas Smith. So he did a lightning talk about predicts. So I just want to give you a very quick overview about predicts. So predicts is a platform as a service built on Cloud Foundry. So it provides a set of services and the practices to help people to develop industrial IoT application in the industrial space. So if you look at industrial space, end-to-end security is very important for us. So we won't have a very secure way to connect to an industrial machine on the field. Also, we need to provide very secure way for consumption in terms of different type of system of engagement. Doesn't matter. It's a mobile app or enterprise app. So from end-to-end perspective, they have to be very secure. So you may have heard about the smart machine, intelligent machine, deployed on the field in the industrial space. So what I mean by intelligent machine is, for example, like a wind turbine case there. It has a collection of a sensor. So the sensor can measure either vibration or torque or speed, even noise. So you constantly collect high-speed data. So what predicts and offers is to provide a secure connection directly into the machine. So we can collect high-frequency data. We call this a time series data. So if you see that on the close to the machine side, on the edge side, we provide edge analytics. So we can do a very quick response if we see any anomaly. So we can do a very quick response to basically inform operator or even sometimes to do real-time control as well to do certain thing about it before a big disaster happened. So also, we collect massive amount of data in the cloud side as well. So not just for a single asset, like single wind turbine. We basically collect a fleet of asset information. This is a massive amount. So we apply a very advanced analytics in terms of machine learning techniques to be able to predict the machine failure. So imagine if we can predict a certain machine going to fail, say, in several days, that will be drastically reduced on-plane downtime. And it's a great value for our customer. So also on the consumption side, we have a set of online services to help our customer to build visualization application, different set of application so they can consume the inside from the analytics as well. So as you can see, predicts is evolving very rapidly. So it grows very fast. So constantly we have a new service coming to predicts. So API management become very important for us in terms of how we consume the API also how we create a very friendly environment for our developer community so they can either develop new services or consume a new service for their app. So I'm going to pause here for a little bit so I like that Lothar continue. Hi, Kevin, thank you. Just for introduction, my name is Lothar Schubert. I'm also his GE Digital with predicts specifically focusing on the developer community and developer relations team. Just to build on what Kevin said here, what you see here is predicts, of course, a website and you mentioned most of you are familiar with predicts. Predicts actually went just into general availability this year. So it was really only launched in February for external GA, but now you can actually go, they create your account free trial, all the thing that goes with the regular platform. As you can say there, it's built on Cloud Foundry. It was really, really big for us that we built it on Cloud Foundry. It gives us lots of things. For example, the way we deploy predicts is we deployed in multiple data centers around the world as well. And certainly the multi-cloud approach that Cloud Foundry provides is huge benefit for us from operations, from a deployment perspective. And also the companies that we deal with in the industrial space, you can imagine us often a pretty conservative bunch in power generation and aviation, transportation, healthcare for good reasons, right? I mean, security compliance mandates, all those kind of things. But with predicts now based on Cloud Foundry, we are actually able now to bring the whole notion of CI, CD, and DevOps into those kind of industries and Cloud Foundry enables this really well. So it also became really a change agent for if you want cultural transformation the way this office is being built in those industries. So that's what predicts us. When in the GA, we have been using it internally for a few years and kind of three reasons why we built it here is compared to just Cloud Foundry purely. If you want, it comes down to three things. One, it's really Cloud and Edge. As Kevin pointed out, there's lots of Edge processing happening on industrial types of equipment. There's a need for real-time processing for storage, often where our machines operate as we might not necessarily have connectivity. It could be on an oil rig or it could be in a mining operations or things such as this. So we need processing on the Edge as well. So there's a whole notion of hybrid Cloud in a continuous way and secure connectivity. One thing that we needed to build in there. Secondly, is to meet specifically the demand from our customers from a security perspective that Kevin pointed out but also from compliance in terms of data storage, how they manage all the things. Three important, managing data on scale as well. So this is the second one. The third one, which brings us really to the topic is the services that we provide with predicts. So there's a whole bunch of services which are built on predicts which are delivered via our services catalog. So I'm pretty excited. You'll find the catalog of services on there and it's pretty straightforward, right? You go into the service. Once you log in, your provision, subscribe to the service essentially and then you can bind to the service. You can push the service in your organ space and bind to the service and off you go as well. Those services, majority right now is built by GE, by the predicts team or by GE businesses and you find some pretty basic stuff there like SQL Database, Postgres, but you also find more services specifically built for our use cases. Master Data Management for example, for assets, industrial assets which are asset data management service or for example, time series management which is really important. All things such as traffic management for intelligent cities, intelligent environments as well. Each of the services of course is being exposed to APIs and we have right now, I don't know, it's just 30 or 40 services there but if you look at the APIs, it's easily hundreds of APIs and more by the end of the year. And important also, those services increasingly will be delivered by partners as well. So the whole ecosystem which is evolving around this, right now you find for example, services by Pitney Bose, right, the FIG customer now they decided they want to deploy their own services into the catalog as well. Now all of this of course really good because, excuse me, as a kind of growth that we have seen, so February went into GA, we've been using predicts internally for quite some time there in different areas, aviation for example, in remote monitoring diagnostics of equipment, of machines, manage and run wind farms, get more output. It's actually pretty cool what you can do just with software updates, you get a few percent more efficiency out of your wind farm and if you think about all the power generated there, just one percent more efficiency in energy creation can power countries such as Canada for free. So it's pretty huge what you can do there. And we saw tremendous growth here, which is good of course here, 500 percent growth in the predicts developer community over just the last few months since the launch here. And we expect this to grow now pretty steadily with community that we put in there as well, forums, discussion groups, ability to share your own code and you're going to run our own developer conference, I had to do the picture, end of July, 2,500 people just for predicts. No, what comes with the growth and Kevin will tell us about that. Thank you, Rota. So I think everybody has experience about managing massive volume of API, also the massive volume of API invocation. So for our objectives, we want to maintain very consistent user experience to our customer. So it doesn't matter, it's a million-colored day, even a billion-colored day. We have to maintain very consistent SLA so that customer doesn't get the performance degradation due to because a high volume of request. And secondly, it's a fast onboarding. As Rota mentioned, we have a large service going to come in to the predicts and how we manage API, not just about new API, also how we manage about new service, like API versioning, they come from the service by the change API. So API versioning, new API introduction. So we need a very nice framework like Swagger, our customer, very easy to browse it, to use it to consume it. And entitlement is a big piece as well. How we manage entitlement in terms of track, right, track entitlement, also to be able to grant entitlement, also to revoke them. So entitlement basically is about subscription. Somebody could subscribe, I want to subscribe to predicts to use maybe a thousand assets per month, something like that. So that's the entitlement. So people can have a different need during different time period. They might want to grow the asset, right? So we had to constantly manage the entitlement here. Multitenancy, of course, and I think everybody deal with a multi-tenancy problem. So we want to have a very efficient way to be able to use the same infrastructure we have to try to maintain as many multi-tenancy as possible. Also the isolation of the API, right? Resources is important, part of multi-tenancy. And lastly, it's important about API analytics, because we're getting a large volume of API. So how do we know who's using what? What is the trending? What is the hot API I've been using? Somebody might use certain APIs three o'clock in the morning who want to know about that too. And why are everything so... Again, we have to maintain the end-to-end security. That's very important for us. So this kind of will show you the high-level view. I kind of overlaid the previous end-to-end architecture to show you where we kind of deploy our API management. So basically on the left-hand side, that's basically our primary, our machine connection. So there's a high volume of data coming into our predicts, either in streaming manner or in batch upload. So we have an API gateway there really to check the data is coming from the trusted sources. So when data are coming, we will establish identity right away. And then basically when data are coming to the cloud environment, so we'll have very nice data governance policy. We'll make sure the data access right is insured. So make sure this person has the right to use the data. And also on the consumption side, that's on your right-hand side. So we also have a very secure way for people to use our service as you show already in the previous catalog. So every service has a... Based on the token-based authentication and the security as well as a role-based access control. So there's a several key things here about, for example, service virtualization. We want to separate the API from the actual service provider as well. So our consumer can always deal with a very consistent API without worrying about the complexity in the back end. And authentication, as I mentioned earlier, then the play enforcement is an interesting topic. So we're constantly metering the API usage. So play enforcement doesn't mean we have to cut off the invocation. We can basically provide a way to tell our customer, say, when you reach to a certain structure or maybe a yellow, about 80% of usage, who can start sending our friendly reminder to our customer and remind them, hey, you're close to your subscription. Maybe you can do something about it. And since we're getting a large volume, so content attack prevention is important to be able to arrest the high spiking of the API request. So we can do something about it. Then SLA management want to make sure we have a consistent response time. And lastly, it's always important. It's a high availability and a scale for us. So we want to constantly grow the API service into a large volume. So that's a pretty much conclude our use. Thank you. Thank you. That was a great summary of how GE is creating an API run business. And so to summarize, we showed you today why API management is relevant to what you're doing with Cloud Foundry, how route services are a really key way for bringing these systems together and probably something that if you haven't looked too deeply into that you really should, or at least hopefully after seeing this presentation, it's high on your list of things to investigate when you get back to your offices. And finally, how an API run business, how GE is able to build on top of this to have a unified platform for delivering these services, managing monitoring and securing them. I think we have time for one or two questions and then afterwards all of us are available and you can find us in the hall if you've got additional questions. Yes, there's a microphone right there I think if you want. Yeah, it was a question on what kind of traffic the route services support. Today it's through HTTP routing. I actually just checked with the product team this morning to ask about some of the container-to-container networking and how might that play in the future with this and we are thinking of ways to also let that get injected in the path if you wanted to. So, today it's HTTP traffic. In the future, though, as we do more container-to-container things, we don't want to lose this or have too many opportunities to bypass it. All right, thanks everybody.