Hi everyone and thanks for joining us for tonight's panel from the alumni career pathway series. This one is on visual art and I'm very excited to have our panelists here tonight. My name is Sarah and I'm from alumni relations. I'd like to acknowledge that we are having this panel on the unceded territories of the Musqueam Squamish and Salah two nations. And let's get started. Well first I'd like to introduce our panelists. Right to my right is Kirk Gower who is a visual artist based in Vancouver Canada. In his practice Kirk explores queer identity for oil painting. Kirk graduated in 2010 with a Bachelor of Fine Arts from ECU. Kirk's work has been featured in visionary magazine sad magazine the Globe and Mail Daily Hive and Vancouver Sun among others. Recent exhibitions include the Seymour Art Gallery new and emerging, Keraton Art Gallery figures in motion and the Vancouver mural festival. In the center we have April Delano Shane Milne who is an illustrator and writer based in Vancouver. April graduated in 2014 with a BFA in illustration from ECU and completed the writer studio program at SFU in 2022. She is the artist for the graphic novel The Blue Road, a fable of migration and the children's book The Imperfect Garden. April's work has been featured in the Globe and Mail, Shadow Lane, Fire Patch Magazine, Event Mag and Teaching Tolerance among others. April is one of the contributors to the comic sensology of the witching hours and one of the contributing artists to chromatic ten meditations on crisis in art and letters. And on the far left we have Karl Madda Hipple is a Filipino-Canadian multidisciplinary artist and curator creating on the unseated traditional territories of the Squamish and Slaylothuth nations, a.k.a. North Vancouver. Currently his artistic practice looks at archival collections from galleries and museums to investigate the absence or presence of Filipinos in Canada. He aims to weave his story and disturb Filipino invisibility within the Canadian landscape. He holds a BFA from 2022 with a major in visual arts and a minor in curatorial practices from ECU. He has curated an exhibition at the Gordon Smith Gallery and FKA faculty gallery and ECU. His gallery exhibitions include the Burnaby Village Museum, the Garage, Broad Arts Foundation, Center A, Headline Gallery, Seymour Art Gallery, the Reach Gallery Museum and Federation Gallery. He was also the artist in residence awardee at the Herschel Supply Company in Gastown. Very excited to have all our panelists here and I will allow Kirk to introduce his practice further. Thank you, Sara. Hi everyone. My name is Kirk Gower and I'm a visual artist, predominantly painting figuratively and my art practice focuses around queer identity in contemporary portraiture and images. Often my artwork and painting start off as sumptuous sort of smoothly rendered images and at that point I then disrupt them with the actual oil paint that I use to create them with thick gobs of paint. Sometimes the paint itself can be quite comical in nature. It can be quite direct. It can be confrontational. It can be grotesque and especially queer.  You'll see a lot of the same people in my work just because I feel most connected with them and there's sort of a connection for me when painting them. My work often interacts with the viewer. That's something that I'm always quite interested in, is how to connect with the viewer and how does the work interact with them. So you'll see that the thick paint on top often is a way to sort of push the viewer out of the image and make themselves very aware of how they're feeling.  Those are the things that I really do find interesting is that paint has the ability to both seduce and repulse the viewer, and I'm constantly sort of working, you know, that fine line between the two. That's briefly, you know, some of the things that I'm thinking about. Thank you so much Kirk. Next we have April. Through illustration and comics, my work explores grief, memories, the humor of everyday narratives and issues of identity. My process often begins with my poetry, handwritten diaries, digital records, videos, photos and Google keep notes. Working from this personal source material I map out stories in frames and drawings and often finish my professional work using digital drawing tools like procreate. I feel naturally inclined to line work and detail in my illustrations, practicing both the visual and emotional act of observing and filtering my observations through a sense of humor, because I think nothing lightens a heavy load like making somebody laugh. And lastly, we have Carl. Okay, yeah, my name is Carl people and I'm a Filipino Canadian with a multidisciplinary artist and creator, creating on the traditional and city territories of this promise and stay with us nations also known as North Vancouver. My work spans from drawing, painting, photography, sculpture, weaving and art installation. And as Sarah mentioned earlier, my current practice looks at archival collections, especially particularly photographs from galleries and museums to investigate the Filipino invisibility invisibility. In my earlier art education, I mainly focus in painting, which I called abstract blueprint paintings, and that expanded towards my last term in fourth year with sculptures, public artwork, art installation. Yeah. Thank you so much Carl. We're going to jump into the questions. We'll start with Kirk and move our way through for each question. Here's some recent highlights in your creative practice. What moments stick out to you as artistic milestones. So in the last year I've had a lot of really great moments. I guess the one that sort of sticks out the most is probably the Vancouver mural festival. I was lucky enough to participate in last year's festival and in the heat. It was a very interesting experience. Also the public aspect of it, I found sort of invigorating. Typically my practice is quite isolating and singular and it's, you know, my time it's not often shared with others. So it was an interesting experience having people stop by, talk to me about the work, talk to me about their work and their lives. And I ended up meeting a lot of people. So that was definitely a highlight last year. And then another one that's sort of continuing on this year that's sort of exciting me is the curated editions with the printmaker studio and curated tastes. It's been such a nice way to connect with the community. Each month they've had someone join this edition where they create prints that can be sort of purchased. And then at the end of the year, we'll come together in a group exhibition and the prints, the master prints will be available. So that's happening, I guess in May, which I'm quite excited about.  But I think just continuing a creative practice is really my biggest sort of milestone is like it takes dedication, it takes practice and I'll continue to do it. So yeah, those are some of the highlights. Thank you, Craig, April. Reason highlights. Last year I did a residency in France a two week residency and that was really beautiful and I really enjoyed it. It was my first time doing a residency I'd never considered it before that for some reason. And also I got an agent last year so that was really exciting for me. In terms of milestones, I think, I mean, illustrating my first book was very exciting. And also I did a couple murals with my friend Don Low and those were both really, they're both enrichment and I think those were milestones because it was just so much work. I'm trying to think of. Yeah, I mean, when we did our first. The blue road to our small pulp press that was, and giving the go ahead to do that that was that was very much a milestone. Also on the boring side, figuring out an invoice template was very exciting administratively speaking. Thank you, Carl. In my case it would be on the same last year I did so much stuff last year, like so much first things. I did my first art installations for the garage broad arts foundation and that's like one of my most ambitious projects, one that I've thought during my third year. I also did another commission for the benefit Village Museum which was shown earlier it's like the arch where it's my like that's my first time working with digital collage or drawing. They mostly did like the printing and assembly but that's also my another one of my public art project. Another one is a project that I did for Herschel as well where I did a weaving that is expanding from my 2D weaving which was my graduation project. Yeah, all of those, those four things my graduation project and those three commissions were happening at the same time so it was a lot of time and balancing act to do managing like assignments at school and those commission projects. I also did the Vancouver mural fest with another artist. It's my first collaborative mural and another photography project with the unit organization. Perfect. Thank you so much everyone. What challenges are you currently facing as a creative. And what are you currently excited about my biggest challenge right now is time. My artistic practice is constantly in battle with my my corporate career, so I'm quite busy. So time seems to be the biggest obstacle that I face is when there's not enough time to actually do everything I want to so there's been opportunities that have come my way and I have to be really really realistic with what I can actually take on and and do at the caliber that I want to. And then I guess it kind of it goes the other way the thing that I'm excited about sort of this year is spending more time in the studio. There's a lot of opportunities last year that took me out of it. And so I didn't create as much work as I wanted to. And so I've, you know, purposely turned down some opportunities this year so I could build a new body of work and really spend that time back in the studio. It's hard saying no to things but sometimes it's worthwhile, especially when you're putting it back into your, your work and what you're creating. Thank you so much. April. Yeah, I have, I have the same challenge I feel like keeping my time organized because I also work full time so just like weeknights and weekend mornings are like making sure that it's balanced but it's hard because you need to like put yourself into it. I think another challenge for me is sometimes just comparing myself to other artists and being like oh they're here I should also be exactly there, but everyone has a different journey. So I don't know I think that that's something that I've been like considering, especially with Instagram and like Twitter and like looking at like, where are my views where my followers like I don't know. And that's a challenge, to be honest, but something I'm excited about is I'm working on a children's book pitch with my agent so it'll be the first one that I've written so I'm really excited about that. Yeah. You want to talk a little bit more about that project April. It's, well, it's not like I can say that it's about a little girl who has sensory issues and enjoys the nighttime over the daytime so yeah that's all that I can really talk about but it will be called Nora at night. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, Carl. Yeah, I also wrote down time and balancing your time, especially if you have so much like if I have so much projects going on and also I versus ideas that I wanted to make. Yes, so what helped me kind of put what helped me in the process is to like really put things down into paper and to prioritize things. Another upcoming project where I had to kind of compare the idea or like I mean pair up my idea versus the proposal call is my upcoming exhibition this end of the month which is for the cook with the heritage. And the proposal is about a response to their database collection so it's responding to their collection. So, and I've been wanting to create a project that connects or tells us for a Filipino and so for this one. I kind of tied up together create responding to the collection of the organization but also doing my idea or something that I wanted to push myself myself into which is weaving photography and also working with more archival photographs. So that's upcoming. And another one that I'm looking forward to is my project with my brother it's a curation that I did. I'm a brother Kim people right behind over there. So it's a curation that I did with our stuff photography works which is featured at the the capture photo Festus April. Thank you so much. So this next one's a little complicated. There's a three part question for you. What is your definition of success as an artist.  And how did you transition from school into your independent practice. That's a fun one. My definition of success.  But I think of recently, I guess my measurement of success is like the enjoyment, how much am I enjoying my art practice how much how much am I enjoying the opportunities that are coming my way. So that would be my sort of internal sort of definition of success. And then how would I dispel any myths around timelines for success as an artist. Well, I've been graduated for almost 15 years now, and I can tell you where I am today is probably the most, you know, successful I've been on paper.  You know, opportunities will come and sometimes there's not very many within a calendar year, but that's okay as well. Because eventually they do come and with every sort of, you know, rejection, there's, there's also an opportunity on the other end.  And it does take time. You also have to be able to do the work. So you can't, you know, have a small body of work and expect all the success to come your way. I learned that early on in my career was I kept calling myself an artist, but I wasn't creating any art. So that was a really like game changer for me I was like, Oh, I guess I have to like actually create the work to get the success. So I would say in the last eight years, that's what I've been doing. This is a long question. What's the next one? What's the transition. So Emily Carr was intense for me. I was also really young. I was like 17 when I started, and I graduated when I was like 21. So I didn't really know who I was, what I was doing, what I wanted to say. I also don't think I had enough life experience to say anything, even though I thought at the time I did. So I left Emily Carr and I took a break from my art practice for about two years. And then eventually I got back to it after I've had more life experience and things to talk about and maybe a perspective that was uniquely my own. So the transition was, you know, it was evolving, and I think it continues to evolve and I continue to sort of go with the flow to a certain certain degree. Thanks, Kirk. April. Yeah, I think success is an artist I agree I feel like, I feel like this was something that I've struggled with to but I think it's having an active practice that you find in that you enjoy that you find fulfilling. Which is maybe sometimes different from financial security. But like, why are you in it. I don't know. I, I think that it took a while for me to also understand what having a practice meant. I feel like I was in school. I also I was like 20 and just trying to get homework done and going to my part time job and like struggling to get to class on time. And I didn't know what it meant to have a practice I struggled with that for years until I looked back and I was like, Oh, I've been showing up over again. That's what having a practices I've been drawing on a regular basis like which ebbs and flows and sometimes that's ours a day and sometimes that's like, I don't know 10 minutes doodling every other day but I do think that's my practice is just like the act of returning and like consistency. Yeah, the transition, I think from school to practice was a bit of a struggle but it was just about consistency. Yeah. Thanks for Carl. Yeah, so yeah for me if this is one of the toughest questions. It can be very big but also definitive, depending on like the perspective you're looking at. For example, if I would look it at my parents perspective it would be financial stability so once graduating you need to work and make a living. But for me I would define success as my early stage of career right now as an emerging artist as being able to continuously learning sharing and growing my practice is like very personal that personally in a way that it is like talking about like how I belong to this land and my career is that and being kind of also like through the investigations being like learning things and learning things. Yeah, and then I guess that's the beauty of also being an artist and creative like we can define our own successes like this is my definition you can define your own right now. In terms of timeline we can set our own timelines. One great practice or tip that I was that I haven't heard during my third year was setting your own ambitious and like wildest dreams in like timeline setting it in like two years, five years or 10 years. I don't remember like creating timelines for my fifth and 10 years but I know for sure in my second year in two year time I know when it's a great ambitious projects, and I was able to do that in as quick as a year. I was making works while I'm still in school. I started submitting things when I was like in my second year. That was when I kind of thought. Oh, my school is not teaching me how to get out there and how to propose things. Write artist statement biographies and so during my second year I started writing my own artist statement statements biography and like thinking through what I wanted my career would look like. The artists that are following artists of my interests. I kind of looked through their biography CV some interviews and resumes and tried to follow what they were doing and so I started submitting to exhibitions applying to calls. As early as my third first, first Sam third year, I've been exhibiting outside of school making projects out of outside of school, and I'm using my time in school to really create a concrete body of work, something that I work that I know. As I go out into these galleries, I know what I'm talking about. It might not be very like white in range, but it's like very concrete in something in one thing that I know that I, I can be proud of. Perfect. Thank you so much, Carl. I'm going to divvy this question up just a little bit. So first, do you have a job or career outside your art practice and is it related or independent from your practice. It's definitely independent. By day, I'm a conversion manager for a large insurance company, and I have about 50 people who directly report into me. I managed two lines of business, and it is completely opposite of my art career by night. I often say that I'm a corporate hussy by day and an art vampire by night. And that's sort of how I live my life. Thanks, Kirk. Yes, I work here in academic affairs. So, you know, say hi to me in the hallway, definitely not related in the sense that day to day, I'm making art but I feel like I like to think of it as art adjacent because I love coming to school and like seeing the exhibitions that are up so I find it very inspiring in that way. Thanks, April. Yeah, it's really, I've been working part time at Opus Art Supplies for five years now. I started working there before coming to Emily Carr. I'm gonna probably help some of you. I noticed some faces. And yeah, graduated and still working there. I work part time like I use three days. So, yeah, like I consider Opus as my second classroom. It's great. It's not the most financial, financially stable job, but it's great because it's very flexible over there. Like Opus, for me, is my second classroom. It's a studio where I learned so much about materials. Unfortunately, that it's something I wasn't taught over here, but I'm lucky enough to learn over there like you've got all the products in your face. Also, the discount helped a lot to get 30%. So that helped me really spend materials that are great, like good materials. And also, like Opus has been a great place for me to just have conversations with. It's like a place where different creative people meet together. You've got like these leisure artists, emerging artists, and professional artists. There I met Arden Smith. I talked to Bob Ross Penhall, like Bobby Burgers, David Coplan, and like these artists, he talked to help to. It's like problem solving, constant inspiration from these people. The discount's very helpful with inflation right now. So you all have careers, which is wonderful because Vancouver is a very expensive city. So that is a reality for so many artists. And I just want to ask, how do you keep your practice alive while maintaining and balancing another job? And how do you ensure you have enough creative energy at the end of the day to maintain that art practice? It's funny. I've struggled with this probably my whole professional career is like, you know, if I'm excelling in one aspect of my life, then the other one is suffering. So it's really about managing the time I have in a day in a week in a calendar year. And I just had to be really realistic within in terms of how I structure it. So I have a day job, which I start at 6am, and I finish at 3pm.  And I do about four to five hours of painting right after work, and I do it from Monday to Friday, and just like my corporate job as well.  And there is some overlapping like there is things that I can leverage from my artistic practice in in my day job in vice versa there are things that I learned and been able to leverage from a corporate environment into my artistic practice. So there are some some overlapping which is nice but yeah I have to keep it very regimented and structured and treat them both as my careers and jobs. Thank you. Yeah same same in a sense I like I keep a physical planner and I, I don't know I've struggled with organization but I find a physical planner helps me because I lay my week out. And I do actually find that the structure of having a day job also helps me because it divides the day and I do a similar thing where evenings and like weekend mornings are for working on illustration like that's just how it is. And I feel like I also combined that with like someone wants to hang out it's like okay well let's make it a drawing date, like I don't know like let's maximize the time. I think that something that I've struggled with at different points has been days where I've just been like burnt out or tired and like feeling lazy, but then realizing that that is also just as important I think for like rejuvenating myself and like rest is also productive. In my opinion, so yeah. April. Yes, like again time management. While I was in like I was, I was in school, I was working three days so that's like mostly my third like first year to third year, it's like working three days in school for three days. I only have one day to make like to do all of my assignments. And like, whenever I have classes I usually make like big birds and multiples of them so it's like really managing my time. What helping was like, as I've mentioned earlier putting things down now I've learned and made my own brain dump journals, kind of similar to like planner but it's more, it's more unstructured.  And whatever is like whatever is like undo the soonest. And then for me to generate generate like so keep that creative energies. Making like works that are not related to arts, just lazing around doing household chores, or watching dramas, movies, documentaries. And as here when I was like doing all those projects with the Vancouver Memorial Fest, and all the things on my fellowship in writings. I told myself that I'm going to take a break but then, at that time, I just couldn't take a break. So I ended up making small works on the side, something that is not necessarily relevant to what I, like what I'm doing but that helped me. Create that create that energy flowing. And I guess one thing I wanted to share as well it's like out of coming out of school. It's, I guess, part of the transitioning is kind of also creating your own deadlines and timelines. And that for me is through those proposals and exhibitions that I'm always submitting to and that it's another excuse for me to keep on creating our doing, like using those avenues as a way to kind of try out different things and like people keeping on keeping on developing myself and my art practice. I'm going to throw you all a little bit of a curveball as as artists with job outside of art and I'd like you to have have your thoughts on the concept that you're not a real artist unless you're a full time artist. I disagree. Can we just say no. It's just not realistic, especially in cities where it's really expensive. I also think a lot of the people who are doing it full time have support financial or otherwise from from like it's invisible but it's there and I think you're fooling yourself if like you need to have financial security in some way, and that's different for everybody but I think it's just like. Yeah, it's a myth that gets perpetuated so it's like worth talking about a little bit.   And then I realized that I'm allowed multiple interests I'm allowed to be curious about multiple things. And I'm allowed to be good at multiple things. So I've stopped feeling guilty about that I like both my jobs and I'm never going to give one up. And I also, for me I, I enjoy coming to work because I like seeing different people and like getting out of my headspace of like just me and my desk like I do find it, I find it really helpful and enjoyable to like be around others. I mean it's a little bit tangent for me it's defining about kind of accepting that I'm an artist while I'm in school like I don't consider myself as an artist. I always have the artist, artist student and like in my bios because I don't feel that I am an artist. It took a while to accept that I am an artist and also don't need a degree to declare yourself an artist. You can just be an artist by your own definition and declaration and Thank you. So what landed you in your career pathway as an artist or an illustrator and did you always know that that's what you wanted to be, or did you stumble upon it at an early stage in life. I think I definitely stumbled upon it. I was lucky enough to have some really strong female, female people in my life, whether it be my mother, my grandmother or the people around me that were teaching me. And it was always centered around creating things whether that be art or, you know, craft or sewing. So we were always doing something creative and then also my family's business was automotive painting. So if I wasn't hanging out with those strong female people in my life then I was at the shop painting cars. And that was also not necessarily considered, you know, like fine art but it was you know mixing the paint and experimenting with paint and it was, you know, creating something. So I was always around that and then, you know, after after I graduated and went to Emily Carr, it still was sort of like, am I going to do this art thing am I going to be an artist and then I took a break. And then I came back to it because ultimately it's so inherently linked to my identity and who I consider myself to be. So yeah, I think it's just been inherent and then it comes and goes at times. Yeah, I always wanted to like write and illustrate books so I've wanted to do that since a little kid, when I was in high school in grade 12 considering what to do. I told my art teacher, I don't remember what I said but he was like oh you're not in good enough to do that program. You should apply to Langara where they have a good like foundation program so I went to Langara and I did the fine arts program. And then I transferred down my car because they had illustration which was what I wanted to do. I've always wanted to do this. I think that there were like times when I would get a little bit distracted like I remember after I graduated I did a lot of like logo and business card design for family and friends, because I was just like oh I'm getting paid to draw this must be what I want to do but I was like actually this isn't this isn't like focused enough, and I don't like this so yeah I think a little bit of figuring out along the way but I always wanted to do it. Yeah it's also something that I wanted to do but I wasn't encouraged. I tried applying for an art school back home but I failed and so I had to go on to my second option which is architecture. So I finished first year in architecture, which my mom loved, but I didn't love. Well I love all the drawing parts, not the math part. I struggled with my math so I had to repeat my math and then passed everything and then eventually had to move here the same like the same month. So 2015 I moved over here, we migrated over here and I got downgraded. So back in the Philippines I'm in college so when I got here I got downgraded to grade 12. So for me which is like it's great because it's something that I already expected to happen. I came from a different educational system so I know it's something that's coming. So I took that as just a challenge and part of the adjustment coming over here. So I went to grade 12, finished grade 12 where I did a bunch of arts and I was encouraged by my teachers, did a bunch of spring classes, volunteer for classes in art, did a summer art camp and then had to work for my English proficiency requirement. So I took a year off and then while working full time at TIMS at that time I was like studying by myself and then up to making a test for the doing tests for the English and then eventually registering over here. I also tried going to Langara but I didn't pass the English test. So I did my IELTS test, got the IELTS result registered over here and got it on my first try. And yeah like migrating over here kind of just allowed me to restart from the very beginning. I was providing for myself, I was paying for my tuition, I was giving, sharing like household finances as well and the thing that allowed me to just like do what I want because I'm being for myself, providing for myself and yeah now I'm doing what I want and now figuring what I want to do next. Perfect. Thank you Carl. We're down to our last question. What has helped you get to where you are in your practice and what advice would you have for others who want to set off into a similar direction. Probably consistency for me is what has been the most sort of successful in my artistic practice is like being consistent showing up doing the work and continuing to do the work. It was probably the thing I wasn't as great at when I first left Emily Carr and it was something I needed to learn and that would be the also the advice that I give is like, show up, do your work, make the art and eventually the opportunities will come it's inherent if you're if you're putting the time and effort into it it will happen. And also be okay with rejection. I get rejected all the time, and you need to have thick skin and let it go and then keep applying. Thanks, Kirk.  I think something that is important for me is like maintaining friendships with people I love who are also artists like I think if the people around you are inspiring it makes you want to go back and to the drawing to the drawing board. For me that's like the most important thing is like having people around me who are also like illustrators and like actively working and like share the same dreams, even if they're not the same dreams. Yeah. Yeah, for me it's like working hard and persevering and what you're doing right now as an artist and you're always asked why and what what you are making. And for me it's okay not to know what you're doing and what you know what you're trying to do. We've got all your time to figure out what you are trying to do. You've got your pretty much like timeline some some people like know what they are doing at the very beginning and some people take their lifetime to figure that out and that's okay. I was like watching a video about Kara Walker and she also kind of become famous at the very earliest stage but she at the time and she also don't know what she was doing and so she was just accepting opportunities at the time and then learning as she was doing all those experiences and yeah like rejections like rejections is part of the process of becoming an artist. You'll like you'll always hear and be prepared. Yeah it's part of the process and just like yeah like if you get rejections just like move on. It's probably because it doesn't fit into what they're looking for or what the call is. It doesn't mean that your work is bad or it's a trash. It's just finding that right opportunity that would really fit into what your concept or what you're thinking or what you wanted to say. Thank you. We're going to open the floor for questions. If you have questions for the panelists just raise your hand and I'll come over with a mic. I'm interested to know how do you feel about not having a career with your art practice? Like I know we talked about you having your job on the side like early in living but do you find a sense of frustration not being able to live from your art or your art practice? I mean I feel like I do make money from the work that I make. Um but I guess in terms of not living off of it sometimes sometimes I definitely feel a bit frustrated where I'm just like man wouldn't be nice if I was rich but I like what can you do? Like I do feel frustrated sometimes because I do just want more time to make art um but but yeah I don't know it kind of is what it is. I feel I feel also like I said like I do like going to a place where there are people so yeah. So I realized early on the work that I wanted to create wasn't necessarily the most commercial or the work that people would necessarily want to buy. So I actually used my alternative career or my other career as a way to you know sustain my lifestyle and provide for myself and not have to compromise or sacrifice the subject matter I wanted to paint or the paintings I wanted to create. So in actuality it works out really nicely for me because I don't have to paint things I don't want to. Right now um no um I know that I'm not that I will not be able to financially like provide for myself at this early stage but with my artwork my focus is like trying to continuously do what I do. Like I have my part time job to keep some money coming in but like my priority right now is like really developing myself and being able to continuously do my art. I know that I still want to study go back to school and have more expand my skills and have different skills. I know that is the next goals and then and also kind of let's just teach myself on how to write grants fund fund for myself and for my projects, while kind of having this part time. Any other questions. It's for the people on zoom so they can hear the question. Yes, so thank you for presentation. Can you suggest for newcomer like places or maybe meetups to be like in this art community to create new connections and socialize like in the art community. I'm not great in socializing, but yeah. But for me like I guess I'll just like share where I find opportunities and because I that's where I find like that's how I do stuff. I guess. Going for like for socializing showing up to exhibition like openings. I think that's for sure one. We're talking with your friends and just like, like events in school. Like networking with your friends for it's like going to galleries, but finding opportunities opportunities for myself is online like I always search for art calls online. Always look at, I always search at the BC Alliance culture. It's an organization that have that has job postings volunteer opportunities and articles. Another thing is, I'm also a part of the I'm a member of the Federation of Canadian artists, which is at Randall Island, and that is another organization that have monthly calls. And so another, that's one way that's another way for me to populate my CB while I'm in school so it's, you've got like this thematic calls that which you can apply for. Like membership fee. But yeah, I mean, that's what like part of, like, I guess my profits, my process of starting out like this exhibition is like spending for those calls. There's, there's also called that are free and like calls that will also pay you but that came like the later part of my, like, later part of my, my journey, like what I'm doing right now like do get commissions now that I'm paid. I'm not doing the production of your artwork as well, but I started off being like exhibitions just have like those names. Another way to populate your CV as a student is joining the art art sales over here, and organizing shows like and using activating the like the available galleries in here. That's like part of becoming a student just like making your own opportunities in what you have in here right now. And those are those open spaces over here. Those calls and just like going around to galleries and showing up like the one that I joined while I was in school like I'm still part of it right now it's the Federation of Canadian Artists, artists at Randall Island so they have different tiers of membership. So right now I'm still at the active membership, which you're kind of your to get into the gallery you're have to propose and not to propose but then you just have to submit your stuff, and then you would get accepted or rejected. But yeah, I don't know how they reject but I got in so most of the calls. I ask you not to create great or submit things that are done in school which is a little bit odd. And so like you just need to make works on the side or prepare for the submission calls, which is kind of thematic. I think also for me in terms of getting involved with community. Instagram was really important for me with just connecting with people after I graduated. You have time like volunteering at like Vancouver mural festival for example I, I don't know I did that a couple years in it. It's just really fun and like you get to know so many people. Yeah. Honestly, all of those points that I would sort of, you know, touch on but also the people around you right now. This I graduated 15 years ago or so. I'm from the art community or the people I met at Emily car there, you know we go, our lives look very different some of them have kids they're married they're buying homes. But we meet up at least once a week or every other week and we go for walks and we talk about art and we connect and honestly that's been the community that sort of kept me going, and then, you know, going to the art shows and exhibitions and openings. That's where you're going to meet the Vancouver art scene as I call it. And I wish I was better at that. It's something that I need to continue to do but everyone's really nice to artists are great. You're going to meet them, you're going to like be like why didn't I just do this from the very beginning. So, that's the advice I'd give. I'll just add that if you're not already subscribed to instant coffee it lists like all of the openings that are happening in Vancouver. And it also sends you like calls for submissions and open calls for residencies and everything like that so if you're new to Vancouver, or just like aren't subscribed already instant coffee.org instant instant coffee.org. You can email lists like a listserv and they list like all of the gallery openings. People submit everything to that like it's a very common practice in the art world. So they have one for multiple cities but subscribing to the Vancouver one is like top notch especially if you're looking for gallery openings to go to because the more gallery openings you go to the more you see the same faces and the more you see the same faces you start making connections. So following organizations as well following galleries. Yeah, different organizations. That's, yeah, on Instagram that's sometimes where I find opportunities as well like local ones. I'm just like keep on following them and sometimes, well, they do have calls. So it's like another another way it's like Instagram. Yeah, a question I have is do you have any like tips for students that are in their last years are looking back is there like something you wish you would have done in your last year of art school. Oh, sorry. Me. Well, part of, like part of me. Like, well, I thought, I guess, well if I would, I guess, well, how would I start it. It's, I guess it's trying different mediums. But which I was like encouraged like I had to take like breadth requirements because I was like during in school I was like taking just painting. And so I had to take like in like other other courses which I had to take book, bookmaking, and they had like another interdisciplinary painting, which was a screen printing and painting on my bookmaking and it's still up making paintings make turning my paintings into book. But, well, yeah, just expanding like trying different mediums, which cannot be true as well because in my case, being able to just speak to like my painting, being able to have a concrete body of work help me, I believe get into what I do now and I was able to do what I wanted to do during the end of the year, throughout all of those. Some projects that I had to do, but yeah, like I guess try to make most out of the resources in school like facilities, facilities here, props, always, I mean, ask them as questions, create a connection with them relationship like a relationship, because, I guess, towards my third year everything is online and so it's hard to create connections. I only got back to school during my last term in fourth year. And so that was the only time where I was able to talk to my profs, which are lovely I had Vanessa and Christine which I hope I had more time working with them because they're amazing people. And so, yeah, like making most of what you have in here and then just preparing yourself out there, like, try to think, like, try to picture yourself what you wanted to do. It's okay not to do but it's great to have something that would direct you or that would help you steer to something, to that next goal. It's possible that you might not be able to achieve what that is but it would, for in my case it helped me get to where I am right now. It's like I was able to, yeah, like I was able to imagine ambitious projects, able to do it like work on it, propose, propose the things and now it's kind of like, yeah, practice, like you just propose, get rejected, accepted, do your work, and just do more things. I think for me, I feel like I look back and I wish I'd been less shy. I think just to make friends with people, I don't know, when I look back, I'm like, oh, I should have just been a little more fearless in terms of connecting with the people that were around me in my year. I think that came for me a little bit like right as we graduated and after, so I think I wish I'd done that more when I was in school. And I think also not being my own obstacle. I think as you get older you realize, okay, the people who win things win because they applied and I think when I look back I'm like, oh, I didn't apply to this bursary because I just assumed I wouldn't get it. But just don't assume that you won't get something or that you won't get into something or that you won't be accepted, like prepare yourself for rejection, but also don't like assume that you're going to be rejected. Yeah. I was like, I was glad you guys went first. I was like, I don't remember. But I think looking back on it, I wish I painted what I wanted for my final sort of thesis. I think I got really concentrated on all of the feedback from my professors and peers and it got to a point where I was creating work that really wasn't what I was interested in and wasn't work that I would continue on with. There was aspects of it that I still sort of take away and use today, but the subject matter is very different. So I wish I would state a little bit more authentic to what I wanted to do and what brought me joy. And then also, yeah, everything that you guys both said, like don't be afraid of rejection, apply for things and also build in our community.  Don't lose track of them. Like make those connections now because I wish I did that because I don't have nearly enough art friends. So I'm kind of jealous of you guys. I wish I was still here building those connections. Yeah, onto the applying like just do it. It's better to do it than not to do it because, first, even if you get rejected you have your proposal with you have your ideas contextualized. And so you will always have that piece of information which you can always reworked on. It might not wish something you could also re-trick. They can always go back into those proposals, re-trick it so that it would fit into the next proposal that you have in mind. And so that's another thing that I also realized is just like putting all your ideas down, whatever it is, like words, just ideas, like sketches, have it on a piece of paper, a sketchbook. Because you can always go back into those ideas whenever that perfect or ideal call comes in. Great. I have a long question from the online attendees. How do you get your work out there? How did interested commissioners find you? How much work did you have out there until you started getting commissions or clients? Sales, et cetera. How long did it take you until people started commissioning you or contacting you versus you pitching or applying for things? And I can't repeat any part of this. I've asked different people who've approached me how they found me. People have found me through Instagram. A lot of people have found me through Instagram.  So people have found me through there and then also just like connections in terms of friends. Wait, can you repeat the rest of your question? How long did it take you until people started contacting you versus you're pitching or applying to things? So like I know that you've been like contacted for like Carl's been contacted to do commissions and like you've been chosen to do real festival. Like at what point did it was it like having your work out there versus you pitching and applying for things like reputation versus. I think for me personally it's still a little bit a matter of like pushing and like putting my work out there. I think you can't stop doing that unless you're really famous, I guess. But maybe I think it definitely took a few years for sure. Like and in terms of the first children's book that I illustrated that came from me doing like a postcard mail out. So I did that in 2017 and I sent out like 80 postcards to different publishers. And then I got one publisher that was like okay illustrate this children's book. So that came from that and that was like three years after I had graduated. It's a little fuzzy to think about how long. What about like the magazines like thinking about the Globe and Mail and Shadow Lane? Shadow Lane I just did last year. I worked with them last year. Vancouver Foundation was last year Globe and Mail was 2020. So maybe that was that took like six years until I started working with Globe and Mail. I still work with them very regularly. I'm trying to think of before that before that probably I was doing a lot of like applying to like Kaplanow courier and like I think Briar Patch contacted me in 2019. Yeah. My agent, my agent is just for books. So I was pitching to agents for seven from like May until the end of November last year and I pitched to 20 different agents. So that's just for books and editorial stuff is all separate from that. Yeah. Okay. For me, like I think at least a year, as I mentioned, I started submitting at the Federation and the Granville Island in like second year. And then I got my first accepted work over there of 2019 and then kept on submitting to their calls and that's how I got my CV populated. And then kept on submitting things and submitting things, which I had another call at the different different place at the the Seymour Art Gallery. And then like, I guess, yeah, just kept on submitting things and then during my third year when I did that online transition, I was able to apply a bunch. So that was like summer fall. And the calls were, I guess, for the next year, and then just, which was like winter. And I did my Richmond art. I know it's not Richmond, it's this the Rich Gallery Museum, and then continued other ones like, yeah, it's like my commissions, I never kind of have a vocal advertisement of my commissions. My first commission was through a tag that I did, which was an Emily Cartag. So a collector or someone contacted me for Instagram because on those tags, the I believe it's like the ECU, I see Emily Cartag artist, like he found me through those tags and asked me if I could make something for him. And so that's one of the commissions and most of my commissions are now these gallery ones where I propose. Fortunately, I get into these proposals, which will take some time due to the process, but yeah, I did at least spend a year on trying to get in through the Federation of Canadian Artists. So I when I graduated Emily Cart, like Instagram wasn't really a place you like showed your artwork, it was more like in like friendship connecting and things like that. So when the shift of social media became something that you could leverage to get opportunities. I noticed right away that's where a lot of them were coming.  I'm very protective of commissions though, or I guess reserved to doing them. I find with commission work, people tend to commission you to execute their ideas and not the other way around. So I only take on commissions where I have full artistic freedom, and they're investing in my work and my body of work and not. I'm not an instrument just to execute their ideas. So I'm very selective in my commissions, but I do have a backlog that I need to complete. I typically do about five commissions a year, and they're already scheduled, you know, before the year starts, I have I think six I have to do this year. And I say have to because I don't enjoy commissions as much as I should probably. And then opportunities. Often I'll apply for opportunities that interest me, and that's sort of aligned with my artistic practice, and then other opportunities tend to come from that. So I applied for an online exhibition during COVID. That was part of the visionary sort of Instagram and online world.  So often, you know, opportunities will come from the opportunities that I sought out. So keep that in mind, though you might apply once those opportunities continue to sort of roll into one another. The Vancouver Mural Fest, I applied I think twice. And I think I was having one of those poor me moments where I was like, I'm not applying to this anymore. It's not a thing. And then they contacted me randomly and said we've had your work on file for several years now and we have someone who's really excited to work with you. So even when you get rejected, it doesn't necessarily mean that opportunity won't come your way. And that was like an aha moment for me where I was like, oh, like that was worth my time. It was worth my time applying more than once and still like getting rejected. It eventually came around. So keep that in mind as well just because it's a no now doesn't mean it's a no forever. And like with the applying as well, even if you get rejected, like, they will remember your name, at least like that's another pros of submitting is that like you're putting your name out there and people. Yeah, we'll get back to you. And another thing I wanted to share is scams, Instagram scams, there's so many out there. Red flag of commission is that they will identify themselves first like I'm this person I work for this and then can I commission you, but there's so much scams on Instagram like I always receive one and like, yeah, just reported block it. But like, it would, yeah, I think for me, like if they introduce themselves first, and that would be a red flag and then create the conversation and but still be careful with commissions like for the watch out for those scams. Thank you. There's a couple more questions from online. One is Instagram or tick tock, which one do you find better for exposure and return on investment. I'll be able to answer this really quickly. I don't have tick tock, not part of my generation. So I only use Instagram. I have both but I, I use tick tock just for fun like I make little video diaries. And I find that very like fulfilling in a different way where I just like making little, I don't know it's not illustration but I find it very fun. So I don't really put any of my illustration work on there. Yeah, I might maybe I don't, I don't make money yet out of my Instagram but Instagram was my first website. And so I had like this personal account which I turned into an art account and that's how I get my things out there. It takes a while to kind of get the validation that it's okay to show your work and that's okay. And yeah that's part of like the process of just like show like showing what you do, like the consistency as well like practicing yourself of just like sharing what you have. And I think being messy and unstructured is another way for your followers to see who you are as a person. It's the best way to connect to them in a more personal way like commenting and just like sharing what you do. I started with my Instagram that is very just like my artwork, but now it has become all the things that I do. And that's where I spend most of my time. I have to talk about it's just kind of creating videos to post on my Instagram. I do think also thinking about Instagram not just as like, like I think thinking of it as a place to interact with people and not just to like collect followers but like actually thinking of it as like an engaged space. Even with the algorithm or whatever I feel like it's it's helpful to think of it in that way. It's funny. I actually hadn't met Carl until tonight and we've followed each other on Instagram forever so it was just like, I feel like I know you but I really don't. So like yeah Instagram is great to connect with the community. I feel like I know a lot of people that I've never actually met strangely. Okay, there's another question here. Are there online art communities if you've lost touch with your fellow art students. This is I guess for April and Kirk who have been out of school that longer seems very awkward to just show up to other people's openings and make friends. I'm hopelessly shy. That's actually how I met Sarah. I literally showed up at her opening and I introduced myself and we became friends. So I know it's hard, and it's uncomfortable because I'm painfully shy at sometimes as well. But trust me it's worth it. Do it. You'll meet a lot of great people. But I started off online first. That's where I started connecting with people and building that rapport, and I was able to be like oh I know your work I follow you, and it's just a nice sort of icebreaker. So start online and then go to the openings. Yeah, I agree the same and I feel like it also depends on maybe like your specific art community like in terms of comics for example I think Cloudscape Comics creates. Like they have community events where you can go to workshops and like interact so maybe look for the specific thing that you're trying to do because I'm sure it's different for like painting or like fine art but Yes, I'm also not great in like going to exhibitions or talking to people during my exhibition, but we open unlike those conversations. I went to this artist curatorial talk for our Vancouver Morale Fest so our curator had a talk and through that talk I was approached by other people and now I'm working collaborating with a filmmaker right now. I can't tell what the project is yet but it's like I'm working with another project and yeah I was that person who approached me first. And then yeah it's like same as Kirk like that conducting like using Instagram to connect to other people which you might not necessarily meet all the time but it's like always the surprise whenever I go out there people would introduce themselves first to me that I'm this person. I follow you on Instagram and that's why I try to do now to like to just acknowledge like people that I follow and where which kind of creates more genuine connection. Also maybe like while you're still at this beginning stage, make sure your Instagram handle something you like. So many people will be like hey apricot because my Instagram is apricot joy and not my actual name. But you know just a side note make sure it's not like, I don't know, broken hot dog or something. Like make sure you're searchable on Instagram. Are there any more questions in the room before I answer another online way. Thank you for the information in this talk. I find it very helpful. My question is, what is the best way to approach creating a proposal because talk about rejection and like keep going and I'm wondering like what's the best way to like create a proposal that will stand out. Yeah. Yeah, for me in case of proposal. My first proposal was assignment so it's like through Emily car and so I kind of well before writing that I had to search and how to make one. But it's always great to have one because you can always pick it but when proposing for me like I'm it's like you should be able. Well one thing is addressing the place where like why are you showing or why do you want to show into this place like address your proposal, like through the space first. Also the theme the concept. I think for sure and sometimes they also ask you to create. I guess to have an image with your proposal and not just your artwork but an image that also kind of works around the space so you don't have to have the best rendered image or like image for your proposal. It's great to have like sketches of it as long as you are directing your proposal into space talking about your proposal in the space and why you connect to this space. That's one thing like, I, yeah. I don't know why I get in actually never asked sometimes they tell me but great that I get in I guess I'm like hitting those, those, those marks that they're looking for. And yeah, always, if you can try to ask feedback as feedback, most of the calls they never give you feedback. So try to ask if you can. I would say the same thing is just make sure that you're like doing your research on where you're proposing like often if it's a generic proposal just because you want to show your artwork somewhere and it's not catered to the place you're applying. It's like an immediate no, and also know like what kind of work that they show and that they're interested in because if it doesn't align with yours, they're probably not going to select you. So yeah do your homework before sort of going into it. That's always where I found my most success where it seems to align with the galleries sort of vision of what they want to show. I don't do a lot of like art proposal like I have done a couple for murals but I guess in terms of applying it to pitching it's much the same like I feel like I looked for agents that wanted work that I wanted to make. So yeah, making sure it's catered and then you're not like it's about community and you're like this artwork is not at all about that so making sure they can marry. Perfect. So there's this question online and it says what has helped you to be able to structure your business as an artist, aka pricing for works murals, etc. Have you loaded question for all of you. So there's a book. My God, what is it called graphic artists design guild. It's a it's a guide for pricing your work, which is really helpful. I'm probably butchering the name but I do have the most recent copy at home. Yeah, I think that that's helpful in terms of a jumping off point for pricing your artwork, which a lot of places don't pay you what you deserve. Frankly, some some do which is great, but it's good for knowing like okay. I'm not like crazy for charging this. Also looking at car fact car fact. It's do you call them like very well in an established organization that helps artists. Yeah, find rates that would fit into their projects have various rates for like different artists on different exhibitions different opportunities. So it's great to. I think they also membership which you, there's different different benefits as well. So which also helps you kind of just establish you like your kind of rights to their rates but it's available for all. Yeah, artists. I think that's a bit of a strange approach to this which I don't necessarily recommend but I'll share sort of how I price my work. So I usually sought out my richest friend who has money to buy artwork. And I often ask them, what would you buy the what what price would you buy this artwork and they'll give me their honest opinion. But it's usually around that price. And if I don't I jack it up. And if I really want to get rid of something I'll jack it down. So I know that's not like a perfect solution but it's strangely worked for me. You can actually work that backwards. So there's a couple of different pricing formulas for the people who work two dimensionally one is United inch and the other one is square inch. If you work in a really large variety of sizes I recommend looking up United inch, because that adds the two, whereas square inch times is the two multiplies the two. So it keeps your prices more aligned if you work in a large size range whereas we work in a really small size range like you only work in 20 by 20 and 24 by 24 square inches fine. If you're working anywhere from like 12 by 12 to like 48 by 48 you might want to consider United inch so there's not this massive difference in pricing. You can look both of those up online. There's also a really fantastic book in the library here called art slash work. It's a bright orange book. You can't miss it. Take it out it's got like a whole amazing section on pricing. Also doing your market research like find someone or like an artist like a fellow or yeah or someone that kind of fits on your level. And look how the price of work and you can base it off from that you can add more into it, or less depending on how you feel but doing your market research is another kind of substantial way on how to see like the prices out there and how would you kind of, how would you see being compared to like those people. We have time for one more question before we let the panelists socialize among you. So do we have any more questions before. Thank you for the great answers and information like I have a question about artificial intelligence. What do you think about it in the future. And maybe you already use it in your work create some sketches to afraid of it that it will like steal your work. Yeah. I have feelings I think it makes me. I think in one sense it's exciting what computers can do but I do think it makes me angry because I think a lot of the training has been done without consent from the artists I'm pretty sure there's like a very big lawsuit happening right now. Yeah, I don't use AI for my artwork I think like, maybe down the road if people, like I can see people like training for themselves like if it's just themselves, like I don't know I, I guess I can see it being used but I would only be comfortable if it was used by the artists for themselves not like, I don't know.  It makes me a little bit mad. So I actually have been sort of indifferent about it to be quite honest because my work is so much different in person than online. My work is really based around the materiality of paint. So, unfortunately, artificial intelligence really can't mimic that. So when it comes to my work I'm not really too worried. But I do think it's an interesting conversation and topic for right now for artists that, you know, it can impact. But for me personally I don't necessarily have a stance yet. I'm not emotional about it yet, but I could get there. It could be the consent and copyright and that's an artist like as an artist that's something that you would like you should protect off like your own copyrights for your own work and yeah and I guess if it's, I'm also not sure how much but for me that would be the case like just about your There are ways on how to, I guess, create your copyright. It's easy for books and stuff of writing I think as well. But yeah I'm, I guess as an artist it's always just great to just have your own contracts as well like agreements. And yeah like signing it like putting into the agreement that the artist work is wholly yours. Most agreements that I get from galleries. I'm able to retain like part of the contract is that I'm able to fully retain my own copyrights. So that's another great thing or that's another thing to watch out for your copyright and consent. Thank you everyone can I give the panelists a round of applause. I want to thank everyone for coming out tonight and we're always looking for more topic suggestions that there's something you really want to learn from a group of alumni please let our survey it's just five questions. And there's an area to leave comments about what you'd like to learn because what we want to do is make sure that students like you are able to learn about the topics you want to learn. So thank you so much and feel free to chat with our panelists.