So we're just gonna assume that we're here. What's up everybody? How's everybody doing? Welcome to Rita syndicate today. We're gonna go and talk about the sequel to what we were discussing the last Episode which was the early years of the Dutch seed bags Yep, so I mean kind of last year we There last last time so to speak we chatted a lot about how they got started we chatted about Neville and all that and we kind of We kind of took us took everybody through like the first three or four years You know, I see that there's a bunch of cool questions this week that have already popped up So we'll get to that in a little bit, but we're gonna kind of start on We're gonna kind of start and take you guys through like the last say like ten years or so of Neville's influence and kind of his history. Yeah You know, we got a bunch of notes and things like that We'll hold up some stuff on occasion to give you guys some ideas all that all that type of stuff. So You know probably the the easiest way to start is to say that in In 1990 in 1988 That was kind of when Neville had been in business like three years or so and that's when he kind of started to sort out like Favorites among amongst what's he what he had he had had to he'd collected a number of cuttings from America by then He dealt with a bunch of breeders by then he had bread with a number of these things for three or four years in some cases at this point and that's where his Collection started to go from sort of a hodgepodge grab bag of things To more of the famous stuff that we all became familiar with when we started getting into weed history Northern Lights one Northern Lights two G13, you know hash plant and L, you know and L hazes and stuff like that. So 88 to 90 is kind of really when People are probably like more familiar with that stuff. Yeah Because he you know, he's he'd sort of settled on what worked for him. Yeah, right Before he'd been just kind of playing around with everything. He really didn't know what he'd had People had sent him stuff people had he'd bought things off various folks And he you know, but these are just names to him to us You get an L you get maple leaf you get haze that all means something because there's a lot of history behind it But there was just a lot of they were just literally names from dudes Well early on he was sourcing a lot of seeds and later on and over those three years He became a breeder as opposed to just sourcing and passing on genetics. He actually started working lines Which is which is where these amazing lines come from?  You know Neville was always He was always sensitive to what people wanted You know, he wanted to sell seeds. He wanted to make people happy and so People weren't happy a lot of times with incredibly variable stuff that didn't perform. Well, and so he You know, he had started to figure out what males were good to use repeatedly What females were champs and red well with lots of different stuff? And so we're gonna we're gonna start kind of you know walking through some of that type of thing Do you want to start with first? Maybe we should start with we kind of talked a lot about Northern lights last time. Yeah, one of the things that we expounded upon the most Yeah, so maybe we could chat about because 1988 is when things dramatically changed. Yeah in that regard From 85 to 87 He just sort of sold a variety of weird hybrids of northern lights and you kind of got you just bought straight NL northern lights. It was a grab bag of all the different types. Yeah, well by by 88 He had decided that there was two lines that really made the most sense NL one and NL two.  You know nugs almost maybe slightly yellowish And that was probably one of his most consistent lines he had Because he took all the northern lights and he bred them together. Yeah, right? independently and So in 88 he offered what was called NL one F3 Yeah, and NL two F3. I wish I could put these up on the screen, but I can't because I don't have the controls Yeah, let's read it. We'll just have to read it. So so basically you know Those two things They became and we'll talk about a little bit more later But these kind of became like mainstays in cannabis for quite some time. They became permanent editions, right? Yeah, as well as that as well as offering them pure So let's figure he gets him an 80 84.  He'd taken them to F3 Mm-hmm, right and he was releasing them as a as a more consistent variety Yeah, and so that's the first 88 is the first is the first year that those two things pop up Right, and it's also the first year that you start seeing so in addition to offering both of those strains as Straight itself you start seeing NL two and NL one being used as breeding males in all kinds of stuff that he had Right NL one I there's probably nothing that he used as much as a breeding male as NL one The biggest one biggest focus on the company is a male overall looking back. Yeah, I would say so I mean you can you can look at stuff and You know he a lot of the you know a lot of the stuff that he had You know that he got his cuttings for instance Like hash plant hash plant he first offered his hash plant by NL one. Yeah, he gets big bud as a cutting He offers it as big bud by NL one. Yeah, you know He gets he gets a variety of things and he starts crossing it by NL one 88 is interesting too because you know, he had gotten these old haze seeds from Sam's gunk man mm-hmm and in addition to some other people in Holland and 88 is the first year that any kind of haze hybrid pops up and it's one that maybe a lot of people haven't heard of Right. Yeah, it's very weird. It's haze by NL one And so it was only offered for one year But what's unique about it is that all the other haze hybrids he offered used haze as a male Yeah, this actually was a female that he found that he called haze bee. Yes, right? So there's this one year where all of a sudden you could get haze bee by NL one and of all things It was NL one Ruralis. Yeah So that's the first time that haze pops up that I'm aware of in a catalog in Holland Okay, I think so.  Yeah, right. He had also he'd gone to America and He had acquired through Jorge Cervantes's connections in the Pacific Northwest in the Oregon Washington area Jorge had hooked him up with some unknown Growers and those unknown growers gave him G 13 and what became known as the Pacific Northwest hash plant Both of those things ended up getting used pretty extensively in future years. Yeah, right? So You know he he also I don't know if I don't know if Matt can show it or not But he the 87 update I don't know I can't do you don't have you don't know you can't do it So if he offered this 87 update one of the things that was cool about novel is that he He gave a lot more data on what the hell he was doing versus most other breeders Extensive especially in that 87 update.  I can't show it to you on the screen right now But he kind of lays out like his like step-by-step how he figured it out Yeah, what kind of he knows we're gonna be in it what you could look for all that type of stuff and so that's when 88 is when a lot of That's when a lot of the famous stuff that we all know of really pops up The G 13 hash plant I think pops up that year I Think it you know it does and then you know he you know it he found some of these some of these Indicates trains these you know he Some of these Indicates trains were a lot more consistent than what he was working with and so once you find consistency you start crossing them to different things and you start You know you start getting these various hybrids sure of such so You know, I don't know and then 89 90 is really when like he solidified the Sort of the lineup as it works and that lineup ended up staying pretty consistent In in the seed bank catalog and even going into sensey a lot of that stuff ended up gets getting ported over Yeah, so you could kind of look at it and if you're thinking about it in that way I would say probably by the late 80s Probably the three most consistent females that he used were Nl5 G13 yep and hash plant Yep, those were sort of the three most common Indicas that he would use as as as standard females The hash plant. This is the TNW hash plant cutting It still looks very After all these years still look similar Kind of ugly very To be have to be perfectly honest about it not that by modern standards not particularly pretty and then as far as males go by 89 90 You would say that the the most common males he used was like I said before was certainly nl1 Mm-hmm. He also used nl2 a bunch. Yeah you know in you know he you had Northern Lights 5 by Northern Lights 2 mm-hmm. You had G 13 by nl2 Yeah, I had northern you had all kinds of stuff by nl1. Yeah Hawaiian indica was by nl1 big bud was by nl1 hash plant was by nl1 That haze I spoke about was by nl1 Yeah, all that stuff I'll answer one quick question. I see it coming on the thing people talk about the airborne in the Pacific G 13 cuts Those are a little hazy, but It's most likely they're not pure G 13. They're most likely a G 13 by nl2 like that Like that would be Fino popping out of the seeds the airborne pop from Pacific is a lot different That one that one is a lot has a lot more of a cloudy history We know the breeders that offered it and stuff But it never quite panned out the same as airborne as far as producing quality and and stuff similar to G 13 So yeah, so and then Aside from nl1 and nl2 The other probably two most common males that he used by you know, 89 90 would have been the haze male And skunk one which haze male The haze see haze see haze see He you know the haze story. It's probably we could probably talk about it a little bit Yeah, we can brush up on it brush on it. We could brush on it. So So Sam skunk man fleas America and he comes over to Year, he comes over to Europe and he's trying to get set up and he has Skunk one and haze seeds and then from Mel Frank He has Durbin poison and Afghani one seeds and he has a couple other seed lines that he collected orange, right? California orange. I think that was from Rob Clark. Oh, was that Rob? Okay. I believe so. He had a number of things Paul Paul, you know, he had a number of things from Rob Rob Follow them out later early pearl early girl Yeah, the early girl the You know the pearl stuff early pearl Some of the Mexicans that that Neville offered Those were from Sam initially. Yeah, but they were from Source by Rob, but they were from Rob. Yeah, you know, so Sam ended up coming over Sam ended up coming over to To Europe first. Yeah, New York. He kind of brought a hodgepodge of various Collectors and and people's lines, right? Yeah And so So, you know, there's there's a there's a debate between Well, it's not a debate anymore because Neville's past unfortunately But there was a long debate that was likely never to be solved where Sam has a number of stories about the early haze and how it happened Neville has his own stories. That could be an entire podcast in itself But suffice to say that when sam came over to Europe He sold some haze seeds to Neville He sold some haze seeds to The founder of sssc He gave some to the owner of Positronics And maybe someone else maybe Um, but there was a there was a few people at least at least three people Are documented to have gotten Stuff from some it's from sam right when he came over, right? Yeah, I think that's been pretty well done with the haze. Yeah with the haze so Sam So neville neville neville story just real quick is there were a bunch of old seeds He cracked a bunch of them Most of them did not pop And he the first female he got He unfortunately killed because it never finished flowering. It took forever.  Yeah Which I spoke about earlier as being the first actual release And what really became famous is he got two males, which he called a and c right And sadly Your audio is clipping a little bit it is Yeah, yeah, I think so My back Yeah, yeah, you're there, but I mean it's like it's hitting high points clipping Better now. Here we go. It should be good Okay, so, um, he got two males Uh, a and c they both ended up Becoming kind of famous see much more so And he he he crossed he crossed the a to basically everything every good indica he had Uh, and he made a mistake with his workers in 89 and he lost the male Early, so yeah, ever he never sold He never sold any commercial He never sold any commercial seed of a so everybody everybody that um That gets nl five haze or any of that other kind of haze crosses silver haze all that It's all using the c male because that's the one that survived Yeah, right And strangely, um, it seems like neville had more success finding fire In the haze seeds that he got than other people did Yeah, that's what it sounds like that's what it sounds like. I mean and it sounds like that he had 10 seeds total Is what it sounds like so he so there's debate in that and there's yeah camp that believes that he got Similar things to everyone else. Yeah, and he just had better indicates to cross them to than anybody else Yeah, there's another camp that thinks that um neville claimed that sam sold him old seeds That he said would have a low germination rate that were from 69 to 70 And maybe sam and that maybe sam when he first got there sold some original stuff Before he did his open pollinations in holland And the people that got a hold of that original first batch of haze that he brought over with him Got better quality haze than people did later on. Yeah It's not really a debate that we can solve Being that it's two dudes from 1984 1985. Yeah, right and and they disagree Um, you know, but we do have you know all three guys that he that well neville And the you know the guy from sssc And the positronics gentlemen, they all agree that they got haze seed from sam at the same time At the same time same year same time same bag everything all that kind of stuff and so we know You know, we have we have we have documentation from others that that certainly happened. Yeah right and so that's when um by 80 by 89 990 that's when all the famous stuff you start hearing about which is nl 5 by skunk 1 nl 5 by 2 g 13 by nl 2 um, you know nl 5 by i think nl 5 by haze was actually Released via catalog not until 1889 90 Here's a pretty picture and i was just looking earlier and it's nl 5 It's a i think it's a much prettier picture than on the back of a lot of the catalogs that they show where it's just like a jumbled up close shot of some Kind of frosty leaves this one is a much better. I think it gives a much better picture of the bud structure overall growth patterns and whatnot So that's really interesting Because that's the famous nl 5 cutting. Yeah A uh, i'll answer a quick question just because i was talking about it somebody just asked where's tom hill's haze fits in and You know, i would say that uh matt knows a bit more about that than i But i believe that tom hill got his haze stock From positronics. Yeah, it's the old positronics haze. I don't know if i think it's the old positronics haze 19 based on all that so that that's where um tom hill's haze comes from one of the uh, you know one of the one of the first people that gave gave haze to um positrons and Let's see here. So Lost my train of thought for a second answering that question But the nl 5 that he was just holding up. Maybe we can talk about that for a second because it's very interesting So neville there's we're talking about on the previous podcast how there was always two famous cuttings of nl 5 um on the interview that matt did with uh, gregg Seattle gregg of northern lights fame He said that he got a cutting of nl 5 and it was from his friend herbie who Steve murphy's afghan and crossed it to a columbian mexican Yeah, and that was the cutting that he sent neville neville claims He got that cut and he didn't like it very much compared to the cut that he found Neville story is that he popped a bunch of nl 5 seed lines because that's one of the lines He got from gregg and most of it was an indica sativa hybrid mess Yeah, it wasn't particularly useful But he got this one plant that was what he called the throwback plant that looked pure afghan And had no influence of sativa whatsoever and as you see this short stocking against budded frosty Yeah picture I would say Leads up to um to neville's you know neville's story being correct Yeah, um and probably having some truth to it because I would look at that thing and I would not say it had any columbian or mexican influx I would instantly say that looks pure afghani. It would look like a pure afghan. Yeah to me at least so um You know and uh So yeah, I mean that right there. That's the famous nl 5 haze. That's the famous Cutting that got crossed a haze that got crossed the skunk one that got crossed in northern lights too Um, and it's really you know, we mentioned it before but there was never a pure seed line of nl 5 offered There was yeah hybrids correct Right, there was only hybrids offered so You know That's the cutting There we go that discuss the nl 5. Do you want to go into? Maple leaf indica the big bud stuff like that. Did we cover that? I don't think we covered that too too much. So um We one second. I gotta do something with murray. Go ahead and start talking the uh So the so basically once he once he found that nl 5 cutting Like I said before that's when he started crossing it. It became one of his standards Yeah, no in in the in the situation Um, and you know, he Had you know, like he crossed it to skunk one that that became an extremely famous strain Uh f5 by skunk one nl 5 haze is probably the most famous line. He did Yeah, nl 5 by 2 is also super famous and uh so You know he nl 5 g 13 hash plant those became sort of his standard indicates Yeah, his his his best producing females Uh skunk one haze nl 2 and nl 1 became his most common um males Yeah, that he used and he offered obviously he never offered a pure nl 5 line or a pure Uh haze line, but he did offer a pure nl 1 pure nl 2 pure skunk one um You know that type of thing. I you know, I never got to ask him why The why of that? Why didn't you ever offer haze haze pier or nl 5 pure?  Yeah, he talked about later on wishing that he could um that he could cross the uh That he would have been able to cross the b to the a Yeah And he you know, but he he lost the b early Um, because he didn't realize what he had he lost the a on an accident and so he sort of ended up with Uh, he sort of ended up with not very much that he you know, the c was like his most consistent Yeah, what he had what he had left. Yeah Um, you know, and then strangely it seems like for whatever reason all the other people that got haze Nothing much came up. Yeah, no matter how much breeding or crossing they did nothing became famous like the later neville hazes So like when I was going to when I was going to coffee shops uh coffee shops were um, you know, they were full of of c 5 which is Uh nl 5 haze c 8 which is nl 5 haze a Uh a g 13 which is g 13 haze a they also they also had uh g 13 haze c Yeah, they were full of neville work. Yeah, um, they didn't really carry much posi work They didn't carry any sam work. They didn't carry any of those things Um, you know, even though they were easily accessible. Yeah, those were standard people in holland So, uh, there must have been a significant quality difference. Yeah, had to have been um, and you know, I think even today Is there is there a famous sam cut? Is there a famous pot, you know, it's all the stuff that they do is Not really All the stuff that they do is is all the stuff that's hoarded over there. Yeah is um, you know is Uh, what you might call it? Neville cuts. Yeah, and and and right now I just want to take the time if any of you older judge gentlemen are watching this and have all these cuts Give me a give me a ring I'd love just to be able to chat about them and get and get further histories on a lot of these Yeah, I mean a lot of this stuff, you know, one thing that should be mentioned about this is uh, all this stuff happened on a different continent and You know what uh, the story sounds pretty straightforward and simple right now but the amount of talking and time and energy and interviewing people And trying to make sure that like it's not just one person's opinion and that we can get other people to back up opinions On this stuff takes a long time. Yeah I mean me and you've been working steady on this for I want to say three years now Just me and you together and and we've done our work on our own obviously, but like we have been Pushing hard on this so it's taken a long time to even get up to this point to be able to say any of these things positively Yeah, and I mean when we say i'm positively Most of what we're saying is generally accepted generally accepted fact for now Like he said if there's some old timers or whatever with some secret information out there that's not well known Most of this history is oral Some of these old guys have beefs with one another Some of them don't like one another very much Yeah have their own egos and their own versions of of history and events um, and so See there's a guy right there that just said is his 70-year-old neighbor has had nl2 since 93 um, if that's the case Uh, we would love to talk to you. Yeah right Because there could be pockets of these things that survive And the yeah the hard part now is that for a long time? Nobody gave a shit about these About these strains and so the information was a little bit more verifiable because there wasn't anybody trying to claim rep Or trying to claim we have this joke. We call it pre pre Um, where now ancient old whatever has come out of the woodwork So it gets a lot harder to weed through who has what? Yeah, and like I I was talking with another gentleman that we're starting an interview with And he was very important in the dutch scene and he was talking about some of his old lines possibly popping up in the us And this is something that happens every few years. Someone says I've got this stash of xyz I've kept, you know mason jars full of every single one and done reproduction since 80 something And it's it's hard unless you have extensive knowledge about these old lines and it ever ends up How are you ever going to tell him? No, that's not correct. It's it's a hard situation Yeah, I mean there's a guy saying you you know, there's some old school growers Um, there's pockets in america that aren't on instagram That aren't on on some of these that never got on the forums That live in police states that have kept their circles quite tight Um, they don't they might not even know how rare or how cool Some of the stuff that's been within their little circle that they've just been growing and smoking on might be You know, so we still have hope every time a bullshit artist comes up I'll freely admit that there's a small part of me that wishes it was true. Yeah Right. I just want it to be true. I want all the stories to be true I want every ancient rare being imaginable To be accessible.  Yeah Um, but I haven't seen any roadkill skunk flower. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to get finished flower with roadkill skunk turps Everybody's figuring that out You know and you can sell beans for quite some time before nobody, you know And exactly I think a while before they realize that you're not finding roadkill skunk Exactly a lot of beans and there's people that have dropped thousands of dollars of you know hopes and dreams Uh and spent months hunting and they get some floral citrus skunk one citrus skunk one resold in skunk one Slight, you know slight funk slight whatever not roadkill not clear skunk turps Um, so, you know, it's uh, it's sad in that way Um, you know people were asking some other stuff and you know, we got a lot to cover So we'll we'll move on a bit but to say 89 90 is when neville really established Most of the strains that kind of became famous. Yes Yeah, that's when they all started popping up.  Yes So that's always been a difficulty in in cannabis Um, you know, people want the best people want the greatest turps Uh, there's lots of people out there in commercial world that don't want to grow anything that takes longer than nine or ten weeks Yeah, they don't be a pain to trim Wanted to be larphy They don't want it to be finicky or a well peter massive yielding Frosty the highest amount of turps.  Yeah, send it Yeah, but you know rarely does that occur. Yeah, same package. Sadly You know, a lot of the a lot of the famous strains that we all smoke Um from a production standpoint are annoying Yeah, very much. So especially in the last Decade or so it's gotten worse. Nobody would ever pick the grow cookies. No Nobody would ever pick the grow kush where it's like dink dink dink dink dink lugs here and there They don't hold themselves up. I mean if you were like a commercial farmer in the real world Um, you know, they'd be looking for some kind of like green crack blue dream type structure Stopped top to bottom buds easy to grow fairly fast finishing You know, that's what from a production standpoint And a happiness standpoint. That's what you want. Yeah, but you know, um, even sour diesel You know that yields pretty well takes a long time kind of feathery Makes a lot of d buds if you mess it up. It can be really larphy You know super tasty and it works really good burns really nice But it's not blue dream. No, it's not It's not, you know, very wide or something like that. It's not something that that's just covered in nubs and so, um so, yeah, so uh the uh Maybe we should talk about so he created all this stuff Neville was the largest there was really only two You know, there's other people that were claimed to have seed banks Yeah, since he seeds had a tiny seed bank Positronics had a small seed there was other seed banks in holland But there was really only two seed and this is really why we're spending so much time talking about it Is in the 80s There was really only two seed banks that were selling a lot of seed in america in in amsterdam in it's selling to america Correct, and they were the first two Seed banks that really offered worldwide sales To anybody that was willing to come to holland and buy them or ship out their Their mail order sheet and send them an envelope with some money and a list Yep, and that was super sativa seed club And the seed bank, which was neville. Yes, the tiva seed club started a little bit after neville Um, it had similar things to him. It had some of their own stuff But neville was the he was the elephant. He was the big dog. He was yeah He was the he was the one selling the vast majority of stuff that people in america were buying from holland Was nevels. Yes, and that really that's really what makes him so important because The uh the seed game is super diversified now Yeah, he basically almost had a monopoly Yeah, and it's why all all these strains that are around today usually have something of nevels in it If not both sides Yeah, and so that there's a lot of there's a lot of nevel work in a lot of modern strains Yeah, um simply because he was the only game and he was one of the only games in town And tons and tons of people got his stuff And then they bred his stuff into stuff. They already had in america. Yeah, and so his stuff got blended in And you know his stuff got super famous. Obviously the nl5 haze Became a phenomenon in new york It started being it started being sold, you know, they call it the heist haze You know the pith the church the this the that whatever it got a massive a massive um and The super skunk You know became super famous As well Yeah, he's talked about how super skunk and nl5 haze were his two top selling varieties Yeah You know and so enormous amounts of those seeds got sold Right. Yeah, and that's sort of what uh, maybe we can talk so the 90 catalog Is the final catalog of Neville's ownership of the seed bank. Yeah, I don't think I have that one here um, and that There's a couple there's there the most famous thing that came out of the 90 catalog was he released Um super skunk. Yes Uh super skunk was you know when sadly Sam did not like skunk He didn't well you got to say he sam liked skunk one. He did not like skunk smells He didn't like skunk aroma. Yeah aroma. He took skunk one And he Tried to breed the skunk out of it. That is by his own quote right Yes, he did he has his own quote. He was going for more of the citrus grapes sweet floral He liked those aromas. He was going for bud structure and other things. Yeah, he didn't hit the rank skunk. He tried to Uh, this so I'll answer another question the silver pearl came out as a as a single strain I think in the last two years of the seed bank 88 89 and 90. Yeah, he offered silver pearl and I Quote me on the on silver pearl. It's uh It's uh early pearl something I think it's I think it's early pearl It might be nl5 early pearl skunk one Something along those lines something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Let's see. I only see early pearl improved in this one and it doesn't list anything But yeah, it's something like that. It's something like that and he also released, uh, silver pearl by haze In those couple years, which was called silver haze Uh at the time He called it. He called it Silver pearl by haze. Yeah, um, it gets shortened to silver silver haze at senty so he um You know, there was a guy named Jim Ortega that we'll talk about real briefly and um Jim Ortega he traded with jim gave him kush for garlic bud Maple leaf indica and hawaiian indica. Yeah, he offered hawaiian indica Um by nl1 in the last couple years of his catalog Maybe like three years of his catalog He offered, uh maple leaf um pure Yes, called it Afghan breeder packs, I think Where you could literally buy, um, some of the original seed stock that jim ortega gave him, you know, how amazing would that have been? Yeah, I mean and he um, and he offered garlic bud as a pure strain The only thing that never really got offered is a pure that never really got messed with too much was kush for Yeah, uh, there is a thing he sold called kush by kush which he said kush by kush which he said he crossed his two best kushes to um You know, uh to each other and his two best kushes were kush 4 and nl2 Do you know what you're that one's in I was trying to show it but I can't find it I'm gonna say that one's in oh here it is. That one might be an 87 Here's at least one of them in the 89 talking about it. I don't know how clear it is And he also offered skunk kush Which was and so that's that's you know, and then uh um So maybe We're getting pretty in-depth here, but yeah Maybe maybe we should talk about Um, his fame led to issues, right? Yes, let's get into that. He's selling millions of dollars in seed to america It's the reagan era and then the george bush era. It's the height of the war on drugs large penalties weeds totally illegal everywhere um, and there was a situation in which a um, a hydro store got rated From whatever reason some kind some kind of action And they discovered that this guy was supplying a bunch of growers And in that they found money and neville's catalogs And they realized that They realized that he was selling the dollars in seed um to america and you you notice in some of these back catalogs It always says that it shipped from the u.s. Or like in the high times ads for neville's things that would always say shipped from u.s Well, what's interesting about that is this isn't factual, but I believe it to be true Is that neville? I think had partners that he Smuggled seeds in to america. Yeah and then You would send neville money And then he would communicate what you needed and they watched the seeds from within the u.s. Yeah, I think he was pretty He was transparent about that when it was going on And so as a result of that that meant that every seed batch didn't have to go through customs Yes, he just had to get it through customs occasionally And then he could sell it within the united states. Well, if you can imagine The dea and the government at the time took a pretty Poor view of that aspect. Yeah, right? and so Operation the green merchant happens Where they decide to raid Everyone every grow store in the united for the most part they rated the grow stores in the united states They did a big push, right? And uh neville gets caught. I believe in australia. Yep, and he gets busted Okay, uh, and he ends up spending a good amount of time in jail Better part of a year. Yeah um, and so That you know, we're not gonna this this this particular episode. We're not going to talk very much about sssc Yeah, we're going to save that for a different time Um, but what that did is that sort of uh, um That to a domino effective sorts it had a domino effective sorts, uh, uh, super sativa seed club decided to stop Um, because they saw what was going on with neville and it was pretty serious Neville was already in was obviously in jail And uh, this gave an opportunity for others Yeah, who had seen how how neville and the super sativa seed club were doing Right it left a void in amsterdam Uh in holland it was still it was legal at that time obviously to produce seed for um To produce seed. Yeah, it the only places in in the world where it was totally legal to produce cannabis seed Yeah So, uh neville was sitting in jail. Um, he was fighting extradition They didn't want to extradite neville to america because Um, they wanted to put him in jail for life in prison. Yeah And australia and holland, which he was a citizen of both didn't agree with that. Yeah, so he was stuck in jail uh, and he um You know, there was all of a sudden there was no seed banks.  They were really going after people electricity all this kind of stuff and so um Centsy which was founded by ben and allen dronkers They saw an opportunity and they offered to bail neville out of jail And uh, give him money to help him fight his situation As long as he sold him their company. Yes And that was the invention of centsy so creation that that was the death of the seed bank feed bank. Yeah, and centsy Uh since he absorbed him And all of a sudden went from a nobody To the biggest game in town. That's right Um, and they bought Uh, they they bought his feedback Right. Yeah, so suddenly they start offering Um, you know, and we actually the centsy 91 seed bank catalog is one of the rarest catalogs Um, because it only was out for was obviously only out for one year And it shows the merger of the seed bank with centsy And they have a much much more limited catalog than what they offered in the future And a much more limited one than neville was currently offering But by the time he split so, um Yeah, and so as a result of that, uh, sadly for neville Neville went from being the owner of the largest most successful seed bank in the world To the head breeder Of centsy. Yeah, he lost his company He lost his self-control The government hated him Yeah, uh, and he was trapped in holland for a long time Because the the america wanted to come steal him Yeah, got him to america and have him face charges of life in prison for seed sales Yes, holland refused to extradite him Because since seed sales were legal and he was a citizen of holland They were not going to extradite one of their citizens for doing something that was legal in their own country Yeah, and to go to life in prison in some other country in some other country. He is not a citizen Yeah, in some other country. He's not a citizen.  Yeah, and he lost The biggest most most the famous seed company And had to give it to ben and allen drunkers and work for them. Yeah, and he didn't lose the castle as well at that point Yeah, he lost the castle There was a number of projects he had That when he was in jail Never saw the light of day. Yeah, he was putting on releasing a nl5 seed line in 90 in 91 Yep, he had taken the nl5 cutting that matt showed earlier And he had bx'd it like eight times. Yeah He used nl1 like I said with everything He bx'd it eight times and he was planning on releasing it in Um 1991 and it disappeared. Yeah That project disappeared. It never got released again And so there was some things Uh Somebody asked if they could see it again Which one is nl5 the nl5. Yep. Yeah There we go. So yeah, so So obviously that sucked for nevel Uh spending a good 10 months in jail is no fun. Jail food's no fun being in in you know, concrete jungles. No fun Losing your company's no fun.    He got to communicate quite a bit with neville I I got to meet him a few times Uh, I've chatted with him a number of times matt had a much longer Back and forth with him uh much later in his career.  They communicated a lot more over a lot more months A lot more directly. Yeah, then, you know, I met him through other people I used to go to holland quite a bit to get seeds And I ended up meeting him a few times. I was a young guy.  Uh, yeah Meeting somebody like that. So Um, but you know matt can attest that uh, that was sort of the start of neville's bitterness Yeah You know, uh things neville paid more of a price than most Yeah, he did Uh, spreading seeds for overgrowing the government for that kind of thing Um, and if you look it felt like he was owed The most for doing this and so, you know, he felt like most people Lived off the back of his work. Yeah, and and it's not necessarily incorrect And he he never Yeah, he never got um, he never he never got to reap the benefits as much Of of his work as other people did His life got burned down on any number of different occasions Yeah, I should be said, you know, this is kind of a personal part not um, not uh It's not the greatest thing to talk about with neville, but he was a hero Yeah, that's actually the reason why he went from australia to holland Was uh, you know, you know, he was getting he was uh, heavily addicted in the early 80s He was getting treatment And so I'm sure That some of his life issues were certainly self-inflicted Sure, because when you struggle with addiction like that your life is Um I mean your life is tough. Tell me about it. You have You have you have ups and downs. You know, uh, you have issues, you know, you He probably wasn't the easiest person to deal with. He probably had moods Moods major mood swings.  Yeah You know, so talented people can be very hard to communicate with sure Um, but what I will say about neville that was different than most people Is that most dutch which is some which is different than a little bit in america Certainly, there's lots of people in america. They're just like this. Yeah, but um in He was probably one of the only dutch That really loved the plant And really did things as far as the famous dutch. I'm not like making a big general statement about everybody, but As far as like the you know, the dutch are pretty famous for being extremely business oriented Correct And they'll they'll tell you the truth as much as it helps their bottom line Yeah, and if it doesn't help their bottom line, they could give a shit Yeah The neville was extremely open about lines and strains and what he used and how he did it and what he did it with And where he got it from. Yeah, there's nobody in the dutch scene that we know More about who he got strains from And what he did to create strains all everything. Yeah a lot of other seed banks in holland. It's a mystery They have zero interest in telling you. Yeah They've had decades to tell you they don't care Yeah, there are a few that might be popping up that that uh are Pretty interesting that's why I wanted to make a qualifier Because he's by no means is the only one. Yeah, but there are plenty of you know, and that's the same thing is that Um, you know ben uh the dronkers are still alive correct. Yeah, but they're terrible interview Yeah, and they don't care about history No, that's not their interest at all He will tell you to this day that they have every original plant known to man They feed with all the same plants. They still make their own seeds They still make their own seeds even been verified by any number of different sources that they outsourced to dismay some time ago Yeah And that they lost a lot of plants Um, but you can't get actual history out of them Correct. Yeah They don't care it's hard Nebel nebel cared while he had the seed bank.  Nice a long time later in like 09 Uh 10 11 era he asked a lot of questions pretty directly.  Yeah So we're headed into sensi.  Yeah Um, and so it took some time to transition so Matt and I have spent a bunch of time analyzing this and um I don't know the best way to put it, but sensi there was certain famous things like nl5 haze and A superskunk that they left alone because the aim already had such great uh that's that uh And it already been marketed under that name and was already so successful if they didn't have a need to change There's actually some pretty good comments happening. I'll I'll get to them in a minute. Maybe we can eat some shit You can't see stuff so um so anyway, well This is this is super long-winded, but it is pretty important and the reason why it's so important is that The a lot a lot a lot of our famous strains and our named elite cuts from the 90s And a lot of the things that went into the famous cuts that we all work with today came directly from neville's work Yeah, because he was the biggest game in town um probably from 1985 to the late 90s um, he was the biggest force in cannabis And so as a result of that The the tons of people in america were getting his seeds and um and Okay, so there's there's stuff coming in that people are saying that's actually pretty cool. So we'll start chatting about that so, uh, so sensei buys the seed bank And they in my opinion they wanted to obscure Exactly how much Of the seed bank they had taken. Yeah, and they wanted to trade So like I said super skunk nl5 haze some of the stuff that was super famous already. They left alone But they were the first company to start trademarking names in cannabis Which still goes on today and sucks. Yeah, uh, there's still battles going on about about that and so, uh The I see some stuff people are talking about early shiva shanti had garlic butt in it Anyone remember the early shiva shanti that threw garlic phenos? Uh, that type I have one of the catalogs. It actually talks about that specifically that very first catalog Where they're talking about we're just reading it to you. Yeah, so that's pretty funny in the sense that My opinion is is that shiva shanti is garlic bud? Yeah, one of them is one of them at one point was garlic bud for sure And so i'll try not to get too deep into it because it's kind of a it's kind of a nerdy subject But if you look at the seed bank catalogs and you look at the sensei catalogs um since he ended up using a lot of Neville stock photos Yes, a lot of his verbiage and his descriptions Just much shorter versions of them in his catalog. Um, so Uh, they she garlic bud disappears Yes, but it becomes shiva shanti She was shanti one and it sounds like uh hybrid of becomes shiva shanti two Right and so they use the same they use a lot of the same verbiage in describing shiva shanti as neville's descriptions of garlic bud In the same picture they use the exact same photo Okay, um Another one that we could talk about is nl five skunk one become becomes uh Shiva skunk. Yeah And that's actually the only one that they changed the name that in the sensei description They actually say it's actually nl five skunk one. Yeah But they still leave that in the description. They it's literally in the description They took it from nl five skunk one. They called it shiva. They called it shiva. Yeah This is something that people will probably find extremely interesting Um, or maybe maybe not but Neville's nl two f three He always referred to going back early as the nl two any description You can find in the seed bank catalog of any hybrids he made Not only does he call it nl two, but he always calls it a hindu kush type Yeah So when northern lights gets ported over from the seed bank northern lights One f three become completely northern lights. Yeah Right um And you can actually tell because they In the sensei catalog they list northern lights as a three time indica winner Yeah 88 89 90 And you can look it up and nl one was the indica winner in 88 89 90. Yeah And the little tail nl two becomes hindu kush Yes So since he changed the name and And nl two use the same picture. They use similar descriptions. You can go back Um, even even straight up in certain stuff like they they sold a skunk kush Yeah, and they called it Skunk one by their best hindu kush Yeah Neville sells a skunk kush at the seed bank and he calls it nl two by skunk one. Yeah They call it the same name. They have the same description except for they just call it hindu kush Yeah, right. So nl two doesn't disappear It just gets a different name. Yeah, it's absorbed differently Is that there was another seed company? That stole nl two and they sold nl two was dutch passion And they nl two under the name oasis And then um adam dum. I think his name is he sold one is closet queen. That was also an nl two So nl two sort of drops off as a name But it lives on in other names and that's sort of start of uh That's sort of the start of Um, the rename game Yeah, this is all the real early rename game. So I'll just read off some renames for me. Yeah Hit the renames. Uh, I got I got to look away at the camera so I can actually like see this little chart I got going on but okay Neville called it silver pearl by haze Uh since he calls it silver haze yeah, um garlic bud becomes shiva shanti Like I just said nl one becomes northern lights nl two becomes hindu kush big skunk Which was big bud by skunk one at the sea simply becomes sensey skunk That's right. Hash plant by nl one by swazi becomes african queen That's my other nickname that a lot of people call me african queen big bud by nl one Simply becomes big bud Hawaiian indica by nl one simply becomes hawaiian indica.  They use the same pictures and they use a lot of the same derby edge Yeah, and they even kept the same yields and harvest harvest times and other data that nevel included. Yeah Um, so they made it So they made it, uh, and then they trademarked those things. Yes So then all of a sudden they own the trademarks. Yep Right, um Let's see where Where's a good segue from that? um I can't even bring up my notes Fine, you know, you you're right. So shiva like I said shiva shanti. It is garlic bud Yeah, it uses it uses the same verbiage in the description. It uses the exact same photo from nevel catalog It is It is the garlic, but I had that pulled out earlier just to show to the The tube side by side, but I can't remember where I put it It's yeah, we don't I mean it's it's it's we could we could uh, we could go we could go in depth I'm trying to keep it relatively brief. But the point is is that Since he was trying to obscure just how much they went from a little company that had barely anything. Yeah through the biggest company in holland um the biggest company in holland and um The timeline we're talking right now. This is 1991. Yeah Uh, this is this is early to mid 90s. Mr. Nices. I'm just answering a question. Mr Nices way way later. We probably won't even get to that part of cannabis today because that didn't start early 2000s so Neville's working as the head breeder for um For censey and we're not going to talk about these companies very much But it's probably good to mention that nebs neville not only spawned censey seeds But everybody working for neville Got their own ideas and he spawned a lot. Yeah so I don't know if uh Well, yeah, somebody just posted shiva shanti is not garlic now Uh, it was sweet. What we'll get to why things aren't the way they are anymore. Yeah, but Adam Dunn from th seeds um Uh, does that how you pronounce his last name? I don't know Adam adam from th seeds Uh, simon who is famous for serious seeds Yeah, tony who ended up making sag martha. They all worked at censey under neville Yeah, and they after leaving Uh, tony and simon started cerebral seeds in 1994 for one year and then blit tony made sag martha simon made um serious and um You know and uh Let's see and adam like I said made thc. Yeah Um, you know, so neville working with neville You know, uh neville sort of put all four of those companies on the map Yeah, I those companies would have existed if they hadn't been able to work either for neville under neville Uh, censey bought neville um So You know, and I think that for most of neville's time at censey He was breeding and doing a bunch of projects But uh, you look at the catalogs that come out from those 90s in those early to mid 90s period and It's basically the seed bank catalog. Yeah Basically You know, there was a few things that neville got rid of at the later era of the seed bank like he didn't really like afghani one Yeah, um, he sold it for the first few years of the seed bank and then he and then he eliminated it Since he brought it back There was a couple other strains that uh that popped up here and there, but for the most part Censey was the seed bank continued and uh, they They absorbed all of his history You know, they started claiming there from 85. They started. Oh, yeah the originator of all these various strains They sort of like, you know, since they bought it. They bought all the history too um and all that and so neville was working for some uh Some dutch businessmen that he didn't really like. Yeah tout ends up Yeah, so um So he worked for censey and we can since since nothing much changed from the seed bank to censey Um, we don't really have to talk a bunch about that except for Uh, you know, I started going to amsterdam in uh, 1994 There's some very famous people on ig and stuff that started going in the early 90s and mid 90s and stuff And since he was one of the primary places where we got things. Yeah So, you know, um since he was really neville Yeah, it was all his stuff. He was their head breeder still um and uh You know, and so, you know neville from You know 85 to 90 at the seed bank and then from 91 to 95 at censey um You know a massive amount of super skunk and nl5 haze All the nl5 haze, you know of the cuban black the piff The heights haze the various the miami that all came from that era Yeah, of uh, you know nl5 haze seed um and he You know, they lost the g 13 cutting by neville's own admission in about 93 It was one of the ones that got sick and died early. Yeah lost the nl5 haze cutting, um, they're 94 95 It's one of the reasons why all the best phenos of nl5 haze And um and in uh, uh, uh america were found sort of between 89 and 95 Yeah Um and then once the once the mom was lost People didn't really find the same quality I don't think I think all the name deletes of nl5 haze of which there's probably eight or 12 Yeah, there's a lot of others. They all come from that six year period. Yeah I don't think there's any that come later I doubt it. I haven't seen any good nl5 haze cuttings in a long time They know comes in that era and so um you know So well, maybe we'll tie a bow on the sensey thing because we've kind of covered most of it. Yeah by the The last famous thing that never neville did there was he was working on this hybrid um, which was nl5 haze Uh, or people call it c5 now. It's still alive. He had this very famous mother cut that was sold in all the coffee shops It was one of the two of his two favorite c5 cuttings um And he was trying to play around and make a poly hybrid And he was playing with crossing it to skunk haze Yeah, and he wasn't really happy with where it was yet But ben and allen drunkers being uh, uh businessmen They had spent a bunch of money and they were sponsoring the 95 cannabis cup And the cannabis cup was all about jack for air and it was all about his life and his history And his contributions to cannabis And so ben went to neville and said hey We want to release a jack for air Yeah I have something that we drop at the cannabis cup Wouldn't that be a great marketing tool? Yeah, he's the number one Sponsor of this cup.  It's all about jack How about we release? Yeah, so what ready? As far as neville was concerned, but he released nl5 haze by skunk haze And they called it jack her air. Yeah, I doubt we need to spend very much time talking about jack her air because it's Super fake jack. It's jack Jack It led to cindy 99 You know it led to a whole bunch. It was big yielding. It was fast. It was chunky. It was a trimmer's dream Uh, it was it smelled like, uh, terpenaline It's People have a a love and hate. Uh, a lot of people have Dislike for that aroma The jack aroma became infamous Yeah Uh You know being something that repelled people Yep, you know And stuff like jack turps and some of the same. Yep jack turps jack. Yeah people not genuinely know what genuinely speaking know what uh Or generally speaking know what jack turps are I think the first time that people ever heard about the word terpenaline long before that turp was identified Yeah, people called it jack turps. Yep jack turps jack jack was a super high yielding Uh, you know strain a lot of people grew it and that was people's first experience with extreme terpenaline Um, and it it bred dominant very Matt can talk about trying to get interesting phenos out of terpenaline dominant strains that don't give you terpenaline It's pretty tough. It is very tough to to breed with terpenaline anything and try to infuse that into a line Jack turps train rec turps. Yep a lot of breeders have Have thrown their hat in the ring and tried to breed with a lot because it's such a vigorous powerful high yielding fun plant Yeah, and It's real hard to find a not terpenaline dominant. You know that works I think um in modern times though people are finding out that terpenaline is actually really good in extracts It makes them very flavorful. So there's been a little bit of a renaissance for the terpenaline queens out there So maybe um, maybe since you can't see anything maybe we'll pause You want to answer some questions? Yeah, go ahead and figure out what uh questions we need to answer and let's do it So the number one voted thing and we talked about it a little was why was sam's never able to produce a haze to rival nevels What was the outstanding difference? That's the number one Biggest question. Yeah, I think I think you you you've uh answered this before when I was talking with you about it So go ahead um, I actually think I mentioned it mostly a little earlier in the program, but um We don't know why sam You know sam sold haze to positronics if you bought haze from the flying dutchman That was sam's haze He sold clothes of wholesale seed to any number of brokers in holland and then they sold it through their seed bags and for whatever reason Everybody in holland wanted nevels haze hybrids And nobody found anything that rivaled what nevel was able to find um, you know and a lot of times uh Caleb uh csi myself matt others we always talk about like the proof is in the plants Yeah, you know people lie plants don't Uh, and for whatever reason maybe it was sheer luck Uh, maybe it was nevel story is true and he did get earlier haze than than sam produced later Maybe him has has been open Which is something that I found, um, which is I found, uh Hard to believe to be honest as a breeder is he loves haze today and, uh He never ever made any selections And he just he just said all I did was open pollinated to keep it as wide as possible for 30 years Yeah, he didn't do any selection work any line work on it. I as a as a breeder Never ever playing around with your favorite phenos from your favorite line Seems really unusual to me. Yeah Yeah, it is uh, it's like me never fucking with blueberry You know, yeah, but But that's what him says he and it's also possible so we could talk about this for a second sometimes when you open pollinate That's great because you open it up wider But that means it might be a hell of a lot more effort To take a lot more effort stuff that you want and so am by repeatedly open pollinating it and never making any selections um, he might have open pollinated his way into jungle weed or hemp or He might have lost a bunch of the quality that led people to love hazing in the first place Well, you look at um, like tom hill's haze Um, he would even say you need at least 10 packs, you know 100 seeds to find a single keeper So the the the repeatedly oping probably didn't help anything because obviously there's so many phenotypes even in Positronics haze that's been worked. There's so many phenotypes that you need to pop 100 to find a single one Yeah, I mean samus claimed that everyone got the exact same haze and no one got any different Yeah I find that a bit hard to believe Because there's lots of people that bought flying dutchman haze. There's lots of people that bought posi haze There's tons of people that bought, uh, tom hill haze haze has been sold for decades in a wide breadth of places and All the elites that people hoard Come from nevel stuff. Yeah For whatever reason Yeah, and you would think that we have a lot of quality afghans out there And you'd be able to cross some pure haze to some other good afghans And get all the results to nevel Um, but the g13 haze and the nl5 haze and so on and so forth no one's been able to replicate Yep, those ones are better And then did also have the uh theory that he talked about much later on that he only believed in breeding with haze males That that was the key to finding the the the the whole url haze was through haze males breeding and not using them as females You know, some of that might be that he lost the two best phenos of females in the 80s. It could be some of it. Yeah That's what he ended up doing. I would also say too that collecting pollen from some 18 or 20 week haze male And then dusting it on other plants when appropriate Is probably a lot easier of a breeder aspect than trying to wait for a 18 or 20 week female to be the appropriate time to pollinate it That's a good point. So there's something to be said for the fact that you could collect a bunch of pollen And then dump it on stuff later Yeah, it's much harder to breed with the girls Yeah, so Um, there was another question Me and gene recently mentioned that you and he have been doing some research and it looked like who do kush Could most likely be a renamed nl I think we chatted about that already at length. Yeah I I definitely believe that the hindu kush that was sold at sensei is just nl2 Yeah, um Have I had any dealings with gypsy? Nope I not I almost did and um And it it was just a really bad proposal for me to front a bunch of seeds He said that he would sit on the money for I want to say six months to a year At which point He would pay you out mostly in credit store credit So you would wait like almost a year to be able to use anything from anything.  We'll we'll have podcasts that deal with gypsy's era of seas eggs. That's some other time Maybe not necessarily a ton of him specifically, but he's from a different era than we're discussing today Sure. Sure. Sure. Um outside of the work that neville brought to the world Who outside the original big names contributed most new strains worth something to the culture early on? That's a pretty good question. See I I I've mentioned some of before Um, I'll just associate some names with strains Uh sam skunk man brought uh haze and skunk one to europe Uh or popularized it to people Jim ortega who's a very mysterious character brought Hawaiian indica garlic bud maple leaf indica And kush for to neville those are all used extensively in projects and so became very famous building blocks Mel frank, uh, who's still quite well known. Yep. He contributed the afghani one and the durban poison Two things I don't know for his revantis I don't think he directly contributed anything, but he did make the links. He he certainly connected neville Growers in organ in washington that led to the hash plant in g13, which obviously entered into the pretty legendary status Rob clark who wrote marijuana botany Hashish and some other really important cannabis books. He contributed a bunch of um, you know, california orange Various mexicans various sativa crosses He's certainly brought early girl early pearl. Yeah type of stuff. That's all credited to him I'm trying to think of You know, that's sort of those those names right there are sort of the backbone And the nl guys. Yeah Seattle greg certainly nl and the nl group from the pacific northwest They contributed obviously all the nl lines And so um, there's a number of people. We don't know who they are But those guys are sort of the foundational Um people that brought a lot of stuff that ended up not only getting brought over there But ended up getting used a lot. Yeah into a lot and we're down downs for nl two Specifically, I believe that was his yeah Yeah, I mean there was a guy named herby that contributed the nl five Um, you know, I'm sure behind all these famous names are just like a lot of things. There's probably a group of people Or good friends and stuff that contributed various things that their names have been lost to time Yeah You know If I if not so dog and matt could turn back time What hack would you buy? Well You know, uh I would buy everything from the seed bank Everything literally everything you could I would buy hundreds of seeds of everything that I could all the derbin all the skunk one All the nl five haze the app the maple leaf mix um A lot of these things we talk about Um, but you know neville was one of the few people that got to run through hundreds or thousands of even Of these seeds and really see what was in there We talk about the famous phenos, but um you know We were really young when these things were out there I was like six I'm a little older than you but even still like I said, I was I was only 18 in 1994 when I started going So I was even sort of catching the tail end of certain things. Yeah Let's see there the next question was afghan tea what's known about it the strains it was used in geographically what part of afghanistan that had come from The uh who etc etc So I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this I'm gonna preface this all these people All these people talking about roadkill skunk and all the other stuff I sincerely believe in in just from the work with um, even the heirloom afghani the uh Later sours the fucking super skunk and jeezal all that I sincerely believe that's direction over There are all these people chasing in different directions I think it's fair to to put it out there. So everybody's on it even playing field. That's probably the direction I'd look so, um You know, uh, the maple leaf. We don't we don't know anything about jim ortega We don't know where any of the strains that he got came from Hero documented anything about he's still alive. Yeah, so it's possible that he could Come out and tell some stuff But it is a mystery. We know to would love to have him on We know we know the story of his work Basically as soon as he started trading the nevel. Yeah, that's when he pops up and you know the Um, we can talk a little bit about the maple leaf So the maple leaf nevels talked about extensively Uh, when he first started growing it out, he started getting some sweet big bud types Um, and then he started growing more of it out and then he found some more like hash plant types Some dark hashy thick types. He called those types ortega And then he started growing more out and then he eventually found what he considered two skunk arc types Which he called afghan t and afghan s and and it's important again because when most people hear skunk They think skunk one he wasn't referring to skunk one types in this afghan No, he was just kind of a little bit of the structure a little bit of the nose A bit of the look that type of thing and what he said about it is that so obviously the The maple leaf was kind of a a hodgepodge of different phenos that popped out of indica But what it found is if you took a big bud type and you bred with it The maple leaf big bud type bred big bud like yeah, you took an ortega type the hash plant type and you bred with it It sort of ended up being hash plant. So they kind of bred true to type When they popped up if you bred with the afghan t or afghan s it also breeded true So the t is pretty famous Uh in the sense that it is the mom of super skunk He claims it's what put the funk in super skunk It's what crossing it back to its afghan, you know to an afghan The afghan t brought out the the the rank Yeah, it took a it took a kind of a sweet floral skunk and made it reek Yeah And so afghan t is incredibly famous Um because but it's probably the least well-known thing we're going to talk about tonight As well as being incredibly famous. It's the least well known But it's the mother of one of the most famous strains out there And and possibly the reason why that strain was so hunted nowadays Yeah, super skunk is probably one of the most well known kind of a strains in the world Uh, and he says that that's what made it super Yeah Reading the afghan t Um afghan t also crossed well with haze And there's a thing called afghan haze Mr. Nye And uh, that's supposed to be a Uh Maple leaf by haze Yep It's hard to verify obviously if that's the case but We have documentation from nevel that made super skunk and it and it crossed great with haze Yeah Um So that's kind of that Um, there's some other stuff That I just answered the jim or tega question on a different one. There's some mendo perp stuff I don't know if well, that's pretty wide-ranging Yeah We discussed garlic bud pretty good We discussed hindu kush the frislin and sensi star and stuff like that we'll get to on a different episode We'll certainly talk about those a little bit more You know, uh where they like to have been coming from the seattle greg's group Uh All that was there a sensi nl5 line in 89 there was not no, uh, ever was a Sensi didn't have nl5 because in 89 the seed bank was still owned by nevel Uh, and there was never a pure nl5 line offered as far as I know And there also was never a 1988 sensi seeds g13 hash plant No, uh, do you can use the melvanix garlic feno of nl5? I'll let matt take that one if you want to answer it Okay, so no on that Um, do we know if nevel's kids have knowledge on his father's work? Yeah, his son has some knowledge of it and I know his son and nevel's sister are currently doing something Any info on what kush 4 is? um Not really Uh, like I said, jim mortega is still alive He could maybe one day expound upon that if he likes Yeah, a lot of rumor about it. There's rumor that the clone might exist. There's rumor that the clone is uh Is not it and it's uh, it's a night pure kush. It's a cure pure kush variant. Yeah above Yeah, you know to type area. Yeah are they on that level? um I got this guy said I got to try a maple leaf from an old timer in george georgia unbelievable flavor almost like dr pepper meets roadkill That sounds that sounds Good. Yeah, that sounds delicious. Um, when did the silver pearl that pip works come out? um I think we talked earlier the silver pearl started being offered by nevel at the seed bank around 88 89 Uh, it was offered 88 89 90 It was one of the strains that got offered at sensi later on as well So it popped up Um Is steve haigar just as guilty as sam the skunk man as aka dav watson from operation green merchant Who's steve haigar? He's the uh guy. He's the one of the the big head honchos. Oh high primes. Yeah Yeah That's a whole subject could be a whole podcast in itself so to speak with all the rumors and accusations and There's a lot of people that believe one way. There's a lot of people that believe another way Um, that's a pretty in-depth one As far as sam goes a lot of people do say that there is something to do with federal informants and stuff I've looked up extensively.  Yeah, uh sam and nevel had famous beef Coming from nevel's bust those kung fu Dub over Video means that they would send back and forth at each other in 2009 2010.  We can touch on that real quick. Sure. Um So Black domina was something that you know in in nevel's nevel's seed bank era The vast majority of the stuff that we were talking about in the 80s And and this is kind of this is kind of the same with the super seed to keep a seed club Is they were basically all f ones or very simple hybrids? Yeah That's kind of what they were doing. They were they were crossing pure strains together They were releasing lines of pure strains They had gotten And they were taking these pure strains like skunk and northern lights or haze and skunk or you know And northern lights and haze and they were crossing them. Yeah in 90s Uh, but the polyhybrid term started to pop Where you started getting more complex breeding coming in so Black domina was a cross of four indicators Uh that nevel that they released that nevel bred while he was at sensey And the mother was consistent. The mother was a One of his favorite cuts. It was a nl one by hash plant Or by nl one to say it correctly actually because The nl one was the dad that was the mom And released three versions of it um depending on the year And one of the dads was um I believe afghani one by nl two There was another dad that was uh afghani one by ortega, which is maple leaf And there was the third and final dad, which I believe was the vast majority of the seeds But it's kind of hard to say people wanted Uh with all these pure indicators being crossed together people wanted a larger yielding thing And so he crossed that hash plant by nl one to a uh garlic bud by nl two Um so black domina Uh had three versions. Yeah many forms. Yeah three forms Um mom was always the same Dad varied as they played around with what to do. Yeah It was just a really good name.  Yeah, it's a great name. I I will say that um of all my trips to europe Uh, I lost it sadly, but a black domino Fino I found was one of the best things I ever got out of europe Um, I had a great great great variety of it. It tasted peppery was extremely frosty Yielded pretty nicely. Uh, it was dark Uh dark afghan not too leafy. It wasn't fast too It was pretty fast. It was a great cut. I wish I still had it. It's one of my like Super regrets We have some good friends. Um that there was a rare 12 week fino That was likely a recessive garlic bud type Uh that people really like they call it the lady fino There was a lot of good black domina black dom popped Um, it was probably one of the best Later things that neville did. Yeah uh, and uh, so I don't know we can um So we've probably been talking for a long time. I don't know how long it's been going, but we'll we'll Hour and a half. We'll tie it off with um We'll tie off neville at least with sort of um The last phase of what he did and why that's important maybe and then we'll call it good We didn't get to everybody's questions. It'll be hard to get to everybody's questions But some of your questions might lead to more Uh, you know more podcast in the future. We might dive into some of these things and different ones Real quick. I got to do a giveaway. Um, so whoever okay now last time y'all motherfuckers. I said whoever had the best question, right? Gets the giveaway. I'm going to do that again, but please don't have four people message me saying that they were that person It really it does get confusing. So we'll do a giveaway. Um, what should I give away something that's referencing something from tonight? Let's do the uh, the g13 and all two blue bonnets. Let's give away a pack of that. So whoever had that top question Uh message me I will mention real quick the the there's a tie for the two highest questions tonight Okay, so both of them win and one person said can you describe the different growth structures flower times yields flavor effects Pros and cons of the different chem cuts chem d chem 91 chem sys chem four Now we'll do a chem dog episode won't Touch that one tonight. Uh, I have a long history with chem Uh, I got blessed and I got to be one of the earlier people that got a hold of the chem 91 I've had the chem d since 06. Uh, I've had the chem four for a long time. I have a lot of experience with them We could do a long talk about that. I promise you you'll hear more About the chem the most political episode we will ever do probably That one. I mean, there's there's other ones. I think the costume fire, but yeah, but we will I promise you we will We will talk extensively about chem. Uh, we'll we'll be popping out these episodes pretty often. So You'll hear about it in the future. Um, so to tie off the nevel bit after answering questions is Neville was ticked off About, uh, working under ben and allen drunkers. He wasn't into it Anymore and so he left in 95 96 Um, and he partnered with a younger cat named shanti Uh, shanti baba. We won't talk about him extensively Um, but he came to europe in the early 90s And he popularized white widow Great white shark white rhino Things of that nature He was also from australia. He's a bit younger than shanti. He's sort of um, and so when neville left Fancy shanti neville and this gentleman named arjun partnered at the greenhouse Coffee shop, which should be pretty familiar to everybody that has even a rudimentary knowledge of that They usually the first seeds everyone buys post 2005. Yeah, they they they had a very successful seed bank And they had a very successful series of coffee shops in holland um, I went to them a bunch and so Um, basically at that point in neville's career He wasn't as interested in breeding with a bunch of afghans and stuff anymore What he was really interested in is continuing his haze work because that's that's what interested him So like I said earlier about the jack for rare Um neville didn't consider that line finished He just released it under pressure from ben and ellen dronkers to coincide with seed with the uh, the cannabis cup So after he left sensey him and shanti partnered together And they started taking they already knew what strains they had they had two nl5 hazes one of them was called one of them we call c5 Uh, which has been spreading around a little bit in america now and there's some people that are selling seed hybrids of it and stuff It's finally popped out on our side of the of the world And another one was called the the 122 or the mango Right, and they were trying to work out a polyhybrid using skunk haze That would reflect the qualities of both So they were parallel breeding and basically what they were doing is old school breeding That's a huge pain in the ass In which they were taking different skunk hazes And they were crossing it to these things and they were growing out the kids and seeing if the dad threw the traits they wanted Yeah So, uh, most people don't do that anymore as matt can attest it. That's a super time consuming Pain in the ass the market doesn't let you Have a strain and six years later release it, you know what I mean like you can't do it It doesn't it doesn't work in today's world, but they He had been working on that for a number of years He kept working on it and eventually they found a skunk haze dad that meet their criteria Neville preferred the line that you see five is the mom And that line became known in super silver haze Uh won three cups in the late 90s Probably everybody knows about it. It's very famous Yeah, jaunty preferred the skunk haze dad crossed to the 122 or the mango My preference that one got named the mango haze. That's also my preference I would actually the the 122 is sadly not in america yet It is the nicest nl5 haze. I've smoked Yeah, I'd love to smoke that my personal favorite out of the a5s the c5s whatever Not that i'm an expert on all of them or anything But I have in coffee shops and getting to know people over there smoked most of it That one's amazing And I wish I had it mango haze is dang But it lives and you can buy it from shanti still Yeah, the 122 he it's it's 122 by skunk haze. It's called mango haze And then he also released something That was the start of his holy grail project His holy grail project was trying to recapture the magic of haze in an actual line and not f1 Uh neville talked extensively about how he didn't like most of the polyhybrid hazes Nearly as much as the f1s. Yeah, so he was trying to figure out a way to do that And so what he did is he took a5 a5 2 Which is on the cover? I don't know if matt wants to show it But the a5 2 was on the cover of the seed bank 89 and 90 catalog both He took the a5 2 this ugly beast He took the a5 2 that one and He crossed it to haze c And which is the famous dad that that was used in almost all the haze releases so That was the first time that the a dad and the c dad was crossed in the same line So it was 75 haze and 25 northern lights and they initially Crossed it just to be a personal breeding project as their haze grail But they found so much killer stuff in it. They decided to release it and they called neville's haze There is still a cut of that first find in holland. It is the strongest sativa.  I shared a joint. I did I at that point I had I had the chem 91 I had super skunk. I had a whole bunch Pretty potent nice college stuff I felt like the stuff we had in america was mostly superior to what europe had to offer I went over there. I met a gentleman Who used to work with neville became friends? I smoked a small joint with two friends of the neville's haze and It blew my head off. I mean it literally felt like like air was rushing over the top of my skull Yeah, I remember holding on to the railing as I walked down the steps of the dude's house I remember feeling anxious stoned Tracers rushing Definitely feelings that i'm not used to in cannabis. Yeah, and so at that point I realized that some of those old sativa stories Had the that were true That some people did get a psychedelic energetic Almost disassociative type of potent feeling.  And and me and this guy doing this I get along the best now, but In in all reality the best neville's haze i've ever smoked has come from snow high He had an amazing selection of it and I think he used it in some breeding work but it was uh Every spice you could imagine in a kitchen cabinet all in one and it was just it was just so speedy It was crazy shit. It was really good though. It was unique. I don't recommend this but If you smoke too much neville's haze It feels kind of like psychedelic cocaine Oh Just go do it. It feels I mean, but some people some people feel like uncomfortable. Yeah out of your skin. Yeah hot in the corner Um, you know, I get that from afghanis, which is really weird a lot of them. Oh, it really it really, uh, it really has a strange feeling um I looked for that feno and neville's haze. I bought quite a bit of seeds. I never found it Um, luckily that feno still exists. It's still sold in coffee shops over there. There's still people that hold it And on that side of the pond Um, yeah panic attacks Uh, it it was uh, certain people don't like it.  That's it Don't but it is It's it's very tasty. It's extremely potent. It hits you Extremely differently than most things and it certainly Was factual and I'm like, okay, some of these people that are making these stories about ties and columbians and how it made them feel a long time ago Um, are true Yeah, because that that that cut has it in spades Yeah, uh, it's 75 haze 25 northern lights. It's the first thing that crosses both haze dads a and c in the same line It's nuts I've been it's one of my white rabbits Uh, I've been searching for it since the late 90s. I know where it exists. I haven't gotten it yet I hope to get it. Hopefully after this we'll have I don't know nine or ten companies making crosses with it from the us Yeah, I mean now that we've mentioned it everybody's gonna have it all said So here's the creek, right? Is that thing takes like 16 weeks? Yeah, so it's a super long runner But it literally yields like three and a half pounds of light Yeah, that's insane. So even if even if you even if you were to take that 16 weeks and turn it into eight weeks Basically like growing an eight week pound and a half a light strain. Yeah, but it takes twice as long. Yeah um You know, I I saw I saw a room in holland Uh, I'll tell this story uh before it gets too late, but sure I walked into a room I saw a room in holland that was all Nl five haze and nevels haze And it was one of the craziest things I've ever seen they were growing on a slanted floor with drains They were growing in rock wall croutons. Yeah rock wall is very popular in europe. Yeah, they were growing in one gallon pots There was thick thick stems growing out of these one gallon pots They were on they were on constant drip slow Didn't drip right draining out onto the floor and these stems went trimmed up about i'm six foot three They went up over my head. The netting was about six and a half feet tall Three feet from about six and a half feet to about nine or ten feet There was a mass jungle of buds everywhere and then six hundreds all over the place. Yeah It was one of the more unusual grow rooms. I've ever seen was it all like vertical Bulbs hanging in there. No, they were just way up high.  It just branched into crazy sativa arms. Oh my god Everywhere and that's the fruit for the coffee shops um so That these last two episodes we basically sort of walked you through neville's main breeding era which was 85 to 97 98 That's so super silver haze won three cannabis cups in a row 97 98 99 most people have heard of neville's haze super silver haze mango haze Sort of the last major breeding that neville not that neville stopped breeding But he did some much smaller projects and some collabs more with other people Was a bit more about that than I do but You know neville probably had a 17 year run Yeah, it's a good run in this industry Of of really am to run great cannabis. Yeah, it went through the steed bank It went through sensei.  Nice seeds in switzerland Um, and so that's kind of neville's as far as his breeding work. That's kind of his arc Yeah, for lack of a better way to put it um And uh, you know, I don't know that's probably Close to a good stopping point. Yeah, um, so everyone if you if you want to get involved in these conversations I mean, there might be people in the chat room right now That are actually a part of our patreon that go into the discord and we discuss all this stuff A lot of these episodes that we are recording we do a lot of those discussions publicly with uh with each other Um, and in that chat room.  You'll enjoy it.  It has a lot of old strain info a lot old pictures a lot of growing info And uh, all that's available through our breeder syndicate patreon. So join up be sure to Do that make sure and and Uh, we put up the crowdcast links in the bio on breeder syndicate for each new one Be sure to sign up for each one. It doesn't send notifications every time unless you sign up for it. So that's uh, that's the housekeeping details, I think Um, I mean the other thing we could say is we say this every time we have a discord server. That's breeder syndicate Um, you can ask matt and I questions. We're pretty responsive on there Uh, you know, we pop in fairly often We're gonna also be doing some shorts soon Not every subject requires an hour and a half or something like that to discuss We're gonna be doing a series of shorts coming up five 10 15 minutes about various topics Um, so sometimes your question might not get talked about but it might lead to a 10 or 15 minute short where we talk about things Uh, we hopefully have some pretty cool old school breeders that we're going to be bringing on Uh in in the future, we're going to be doing this on a regular basis Both the shorts and the long and the long factor. It won't just be me and matt Some breeders are shy some are busy some are both We're going to do our best to add in some extra people and and get, you know, pretty historical So for all that you can reach us on a patron.  We want to keep this kind of thing rolling I hope it was interesting to everybody. I promise in the future matt'll talk more Yeah, so um, but you know, I thank everybody for listening. I hope you find it. I hope you thought it was cool I hope you learned some things And uh, everybody, thank you very much for signing up and listening for everybody that stuck with us You have a great day. Peace everybody


In many scientific fields such as bioinformatics, medical imaging and astronomy, large quantities of data need to be analysed. This can involve large scale and repetitive processes in long pipelines of different tools referred to as workflows. It can be very time consuming to run data through all these different tools by hand, and convert outputs to various formats to make them compatible with the next step. Workflow management systems are designed to alleviate this problem by allowing these workflows to be expressed formally, and providing infrastructure to set up, execute and monitor them. This formal expression of workflows allows for scientists to easily share and reuse them. Crucially, they can also be used to verify results of computation for published work. However, there are many competing standards for describing workflows which is a barrier to this aim. Currently, there are over 100 different data analysis workflow systems, with no interoperability between them. The need has arisen to have a single common standard, and so the common workflow language project was created, an open standard designed to express workflows in their tooling in groups of YAML-structured text files. However, these files are currently almost exclusively being written by hand, and due to their syntax and expression in multi file collections are not conducive to easy browsing, exchange and understanding. My aim for this project was to create a richly featured web visualisation suite, which graphically presents and lists the details of workflows expressed in the common workflow language with their inputs, outputs and steps. It also packages the files into a downloadable research object bundle, a container format designed to bundle relevant metadata such as attribution, versioning and dependency information in a manifest allowing for it to be easily shared. Visualisation is a challenging process due to the complexity of many real world workflows which can also be nested within each other to create multiple levels of abstraction. Like this, it is a highly valuable feature as a directed acyclic graph allows for the workflow to be understood quickly and easily, and can also be presented to domain scientists who may not have knowledge of the common workflow language themselves. The tool operates over any workflow held in a github repository, with a URL to it being entered on the main page to view the visualisation and details. This URL can either be a link directly to the workflow description on github, or to a directory, at which point a list of workflows within is displayed on the page for the user to select between. The URLs of the resulting workflow pages are helpfully formatted to contain the github URL, to allow the user to manipulate and remember them easily. To increase performance, a cache is used to prevent download in the workflow on every page load. If the URL refers to a branch name, the most recent commit ID is checked after a timeout to see if we need to update it. If the URL instead lists a commit ID, the workflow is effectively frozen in time and no check is required. After this page loads, the research object, the downloadable container with metadata mentioned earlier, is being constructed asynchronously, and is added to the page once complete. This contains a snapshot of all the files necessary to run the workflow, and a manifest containing metadata such as the commit offers, when and where the files were retrieved from, as well as information such as the version of common workflow language the CWL files are written in. Also at the top of the workflow page is basic documentation about the overall workflow, and a link to where the workflow is stored on github for convenience. The visualization itself is just below. This is able to be panned and zoomed as desired to navigate it, which is convenient for particularly complex workflows. It can also be viewed in a larger modal window. An image of this visualization can be downloaded in various image formats. The source of the graph in graphis. A popular graph description language utilized by my application can also be downloaded. Inputs and outputs are clustered at the top and bottom of the visualization, and intermediate steps are placed between. Colors differentiate the inputs and outputs, default values, and nested workflows for clarity. Below the visualization are tables containing more information about the inputs, outputs, and steps. For the steps, documentation from external tools or nested workflows may have to be pulled in from other files to aid in reuse. If the step runs a nested workflow, this is linked here, and can be clicked to browse it. To prevent difficulty in matching these details in the table to the visualization above, the rows or nodes on the graph can be hovered over to highlight them. Clicking toggles this highlight, and it's also possible to select multiple nodes to highlight them by holding the control key. This is useful to point out features of a workflow when presenting. It also enables the use of the select children and select parents functionality, which can be used to see, for example, which steps contribute to a particular output in the workflow. The application also provides a gallery of workflows which have been added, facilitating sharing and allowing people to view examples of workflows written in the common workflow language. Basic documentation and the origin of each workflow are given, as well as the visualization thumbnail. The list is also paginated to prevent a long loading time for a single page. Through the course of development, over 50 different versions of the application have been released using continuous integration and deployment. The official common workflow language domain hosts the application at view.comnwl.org. Feedback from these releases by the community were used to prioritize features and enhancements in an agile methodology. The source code is also available under the Apache license on GitHub. This is a permissive free software license, which allows use for any purpose. There are currently over 150 different workflows which have been added to the live application, including complex real-world workflows from the European Bioinformatics Institute, US National Cancer Institute, and Netherlands Eastern Centre, amongst many others. It has become the de facto standard way of visualizing workflows written in the common workflow language.