to criticize citizen kane that's all i can get from that assumption yeah because it's i don't exactly know what he's um actually i don't know i i'm gonna need i don't know what he means yeah well this is about we're about to jump into the rabbit hole with this maybe he doesn't like that movie for some reason a month ago i reviewed the last jedi on my own channel and basically said that i thoroughly enjoyed that shitty video yeah we couldn't even finish it we covered it on wolf's podcast we died after about five minutes i think that video quintin that video was fucking dog shit really was awful i would feel ashamed if i had ever produced a video like that you should delete it i'm not even rags go for it no mercy with uh with the shit quintas come up comes up with soon after this i received a barrage of strangely personal comments from people who hated the movie and more importantly hated people who liked the movie you see how horrible these people are they hate you for liking stuff there's no one out there who will hate you for not liking it that doesn't happen but you know what does happen if you like something people hate you and that's wrong just just because i've been i've been unironically called fascist Nazi white supremacist sexist bigoted for not liking the last jedi yeah well that doesn't happen it only happens on this end of the aisle and that's why he's justified in whatever choice he makes next and in response to this i decided to make a parody video making fun of some of those a parody video that went down horrifically badly because nobody understood what the hell you were trying to do with it is that video his still up uh he's unlisted it but you can't access it oh that aged well yeah that aged well the thing he he fucked it up half of his audience actually thought that he was giving good criticisms to the citizen cain there was comments like finally someone criticizes this shitty film it was like uh oh that's not what his intention was his point as he explained on his video before he had listed it because of how badly it went was supposed to be that you can always spin a narrative like you can always convince an audience that a film is x or y through a video and technically speaking he was right but none of his audience fucking understood it they were like is this supposed to be criticizing mauler is this supposed to criticize the film is this parody are you serious and it was just he just unlisted it because he had to explain it over and over again it's just it's the biggest tell of whether or not a parody fails is when people are just like don't know if it's parody what what is this that's why we can discuss to this day whether l3 is a parody or not yeah because they fucked up the tone of it completely references to the work of mauler i was then invited to a debate with mauler and randon yeah i i said that his video was cheap but i'm happy to talk about the film with him for this i decided to watch all five hours of his last Jedi criticism video and i found that experience to be heavily disagreeable not something that i found any relation to whatsoever nothing in the entire five hours none of it shit all right damn okay and the thing is i'm not sure that that's inherently that much of a bad thing whether or not you agree with what i said isn't really a bad thing yeah i fine yeah i guess i guess you know like it's whether or not it's a bad thing i don't i don't know what that i would that be something i just wanted to elaborate on what do you mean a bad thing like that's the thing where it's like bad they're very yeah i needed to develop that a little bit just what do you mean by bad a review is nothing more than a description of an experience no it's not uh no um if i tell you that's wrong but uh i don't know star wars released in 1977 directed by george lucas starring mark hamill harrison ford and carrie fischer and then then someone says well that's just your experience i'm like no well and that's a power of you there's no way you can well if you made a review of star wars and all you did was it made me feel this and it made me feel this and it made me feel this and that's my review yeah that's not it's not a review it's a review of your feelings it's not a review of the film and to give you an example phone reviews typically go into all of the technological aspects and most of it is undeniable who'd be like this is a blah blah blah mega pixel camera it's about functionality yeah what can it do how fast is it and don't tell me a phone isn't a piece of art don't go there i'm not in the mood people phones and cars aren't art it's fucking stupid yeah quinn's quinn's just wrong here when he says this well i mean let's just for the sake of it it worked before right rags when we just look at the word so define review go on google what have you got a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary a critical appraisal of a book play or film published in a newspaper or magazine assess something formally with the intention of instituting change if necessary write a critical appraisal it's like you we've got four definitions oh well two definitions mainly here and he said it's like one specific thing it's just like let's be honest review is just you you assess something basically mr soup and the comment said gotta love how rags responds to bits of it instead of watching the whole thing what do you think we've been doing for the last fucking like two and a half three hours how i never understand these people if me and rags watched the one hour and 56 live and then we responded to it for like a half an hour it would be almost just random thoughts like oh remember the bit where he said this that's kind of how i feel about that as if we go through it slowly we can not only point out patterns to you guys but we can actually address every point they make yeah and besides all of my videos i watch the whole thing yeah i mean i mean i mean the whole things there like do you want to see that's the thing do you do they expect us to watch two hours worth of something and then just talk out of memory of what we just experienced yeah i review what he said a review is simply a description of an experience i believe i disagree he says it's a it's describing how you felt basically and i found that experience to be heavily disagreeable not something that i found any relation to whatsoever and the thing is i'm not sure that that's inherently that much of a bad thing a review is nothing more than a description of an experience no it's not this dates back all the way to when a review spoke of plays and concerts instead of dvds and blue rays and with that doesn't assist your point at all yeah that doesn't help that doesn't help make this case it's only natural that from person to person the descriptions of these experiences are going to be different yes all right but there's a part of that where they get so different they're not useful yeah and have five reviews of something and they're all completely different then you're like well yeah what what yeah how much real use can this be if there's no consistency if if there's no the real way to tell that these reviews were about the same thing or described in some way the same thing then that is going to have an impact on their usefulness part is not a science there is no means to universally or factually prove worth and arguably that is why art has any value in the first place so yeah this is just he disagrees with objectivity this is subjectivity but he's just blatantly wrong it's and everything disagrees with him by the way um it's it's an odd way to use the process of science generally science doesn't isn't what we use to you know dissect the subjective you know if you want to know something objectively you use the scientific process exactly and i think people get very antsy about that they're like oh god you're talking about judging art as a science that's antithetical to art yeah science science is a process okay and that's the thing it's like no no no we're not saying you can't get the point of like oh you know this is how it made me feel it's a it's a separate conversation man it's almost as if they take what we say and say they're trying to say you can judge feelings objectively it's like no you judge feelings and you judge objectively those are two different things yeah you can have the you can have the feeling and having the feeling can be objective because you can have the feeling regardless of anyone's opinion on it but that's a different conversation there are different aspects that you look at things and conflating one with the other can maybe give someone the impression that we mean things we don't and again check the definitions for these value has a definition it's pretty much by by how a standard is satisfied right so then you're like okay so what's a standard it's like a standard could be established in many different ways for example what constitutes a planet and then you complete the standard and then you assess the fact that Pluto is always not a planet that's science by the way that's that's an actual and for you to be like yeah but that was a standard just created by people so it's not a definitive standard you'd be like fine and this is what i got to to agree with assessing art objectively is no more accurate to reality than science is no more or no less so i'm happy to agree with that if that's how quinton feels about it but i doubt it since he thinks that you can only get a value from art subjectively there is nothing about the the technical standard in which it was it achieves consistency or structure in any way shape or form if you paint if you if you make a line if you make a straight line on a piece of paper right we can all agree that this is yeah this is this is a line but technically it's a line segment you know it depends on how exact you want to be but if everybody that's why a lot of conversations begin with let's define our terms so that when we all say words we know what is being meant all right because words don't have meaning so much as they have shared understandings yeah which is what the dictionary is basically for basically yes and to piggyback your point let's say we're all in a class where they say you need to draw a straight line and everyone's drawing this line and it's like just off just off just off and some guy uses a ruler and it's a perfect line and they've achieved the highest standard of that particular artwork at that point and you can be like yeah but i don't care for straight lines that doesn't make me feel anything you're like okay but objectively that is a straight line which means it's achieved the highest point of that standard in this class it's like someone's someone's already asked how do you improve at art if there are no standards exactly and that was one thing that was really kind of depressing about listening to just right absolutely like what is the after this discussion how do you justify your channel existing we recently released the video say that the writing and uh in ready player one the thumbnail said it was bad it's like oh you must mean subjectively yeah what do you mean bad but here lies the issue the right opinion and i would not be discussing rags this video if the issue at hand was just that he doesn't like the last Jedi and other people do the problem is that his thesis statement is essentially that other people are not allowed to disagree with his bullshit yeah i don't think rags said that but go ahead show me a clip yeah show me a clip quintin because his opinion is on a higher playing field than yeah this is why clinton this is this is why quintin's a fucking scumbag yeah he's piece of shit yeah quintin's a piece of shit this is the kind of thing that the piece of shit does people like quintin they don't seek to understand um it's not a they don't value the pursuit of knowledge in the same way to just to say that to say that i to say that that's my thesis statement is absolutely ridiculous to say that nobody's allowed to enjoy it is absolutely ridiculous right remember how at the beginning of all e-faps you're like this will be fun because you guys get to hear my my perspective which is on a higher playing field than everyone else is oh you know how you say that all the time that's why i always start them out like that because i i know that my opinion is the objective standard by which we judge quality and anything that deviates from my opinion is on the spectrum of incorrect and yeah so for people who are like this is a really long stream it's like yeah well this video gets worse as you progress and this is this is part of the uh the shit that needed to be responded to in terms of just fuck you quintin stop telling people that this is what we actually do when it's not this is um oh yeah and oh yeah and right the video someone pointed out in chat at the beginning of the fucking video that this is a response to i say it's okay if you liked it exactly but that doesn't count so no that counts even though i specifically say something quintin can come in with his big ass brain and its compensation beard and his yellow teeth and say that there's some i what i really mean is something that's completely opposite to something that i stated yeah it's pretty frustrating because this is the thing this is the core of what you could call me and rags is like uh the way we assess in general so like this isn't just art or this is like our day to day we'll break up uh what what things are happening versus how people are feeling about the things you know information is really important and then how people feel about is really important and so to just say rags and more they go about their lives thinking that they're better than everyone else because they have better uh playing fields in which they have a bit it's just like fuck you man and i and i guess we'll have to keep restating it over and over because people like quintin will keep taking it out of context or they'll just make shit up like he does here in a malicious way it is really easy to get it but we'll keep saying it over and over you can feel however you want about anything you can feel whatever you want to feel about the last jedi or the predator or Jurassic world or freaking mary poppins it doesn't matter you can feel however you want and we can never take that away from you and you're not wrong for feeling a certain way everyone else's or to put it like he likes to his opinions are objective no no let's be let's be honest rags an opinion can be objective it is possible and yeah an opinion he yeah it's true it's not the way he means but no cause an opinion can be objective but it is not objective because it is someone's opinion if i say in my opinion the sun is a star is that objective or is that my feelings how does that work yes it can be both i it is my opinion that two plus two equals four that's objectively true but it's objectively true through mathematics it's not objectively true because you feel it i feel that way exactly yeah and that can be the simple deconstruction you're not going to catch me in rags saying in my opinion the last jedi has inconsistencies because it's it's provable we don't need to say it's our opinion that we can demonstrate this irregard sorry irregardless in the word regardless of what our opinion is it's just that our opinion happened to line up to something that we can objectively show and demonstrate but what he's what he's selling here is that me and rags will literally like watch a film go i didn't really enjoy that that much and then he's like oh so it's objectively a bad film a movie like what what i'm not following all right friend for instance there's a you know the movie space mutiny i don't but go on yeah it's an old crappy b movie um it was in one of the best of the worst episodes of a red letter media okay there is a scene in that movie where a character dies she's shot she's killed and there's an editing mistake in which she appears alive and well in the next scene just doing her job right it's like there there can be objective errors in films see just right would have argued that there may be a reason for that in Canada like she's able to clone herself or something like that like that's that's why he said it's never objective because it could always change and it's just like Jesus Christ mate by that logic nothing on this earth is objective and i made this argument to wolf i said that um our understanding of gravity might not actually be as objective as we think it turns out there's a demon on the other side of the universe casting a spell that maintains gravity it has nothing to do with the laws of the universe oh and regardless isn't the dictionary now okie dokie oh neat i still i'm a bit of a purist in that sense though yeah like i tried to use literally to mean literally instead of figuratively even though the dictionary approves yeah i don't care if the dictionary approves of using the word literally in the opposite way that it actually means i don't care and if you say it's right because the dictionary says that's an appeal to authority policy because the dictionaries are not prescriptive or descriptive there you go well i mean i would still say it's uh they're not incorrect if they're going by the dictionary standard but they're not helping because there's there is no reason that literally started to mean figuratively as well other than people being hyperbolic that's how that word changed was people trying to use it in a hyperbolic way which is bizarre yes that's because that's because people's usages of a word change and then the dictionary changes to reflect it yeah the dictionary is just as best they can do of displaying to you how a word is commonly used and what it means um brown guy asks if the right opinion offered to debate me um i guess honestly i don't know i never saw it i'm not going to say that he didn't make it but i never got an email or a discord message as far as i know there is a chance we'll be able to get them to talk to each other maybe on the next defab for all we know but um maybe up to this point talk about it at all tiaro's talk about it at all tiaro and rags obviously have lives and they've been getting up to a lot of things in between this so and i let tiaro know we were doing this and he didn't express any interest in actually discussing it beforehand so i'm sure he's it's fine but we might be able to get something he's talked about taking his video down yeah he's he's entertained the thought which is like if he wants to drop it fine but um you know whatever whatever he wants to do is fine with me i got things to do i don't get bogged down with stuff like that quentin's still a piece of shit though of course those those are just subjective and you can quote me on this because i stand by it 110 percent the last jedi is an objectively poorly made film before moving any what's wrong with that yeah and that was not what you said it was quinton that's very different and yeah absolutely and we have continually continuously sorry demonstrated this over many e-faps and other streams across many different channels uh forwards we have to acknowledge something which might not be inherently obvious if you don't know a lot about these two youtubers that being that most of this video created by rags is in fact paraphrasing a video made by his apparent best friend moller thus oh hey am i am i your best friend oh i guess we're best would be a best forever thanks thanks dude say quinton announced it publicly for you but hey i'll accept it i do you i have to be honest the way he said that the way he said that was as if to imply it's like brigade is best friend to do it he's in league with moller he's just mollers puppet like i mean at this point um we we like how how was our relationship at this point in time because this video came out a while ago at this point we had had spoken maybe like i want to say like three or four times something like that um we certainly didn't have e-fap i found your video after the last jet i came out so it was late december yes oh well i released them in february the beginning of february oh okay so it was at least so we had basically just met our relationship was still budding yes but you were obviously we were best friends we weren't as ready to tie the knot as we are now of course of course but you know just to fully understand what rags is even trying to say about the last pretty ironic coming from the video that cuts context constantly in order to understand anything that's going on here we need to watch all the other videos that came before twat did i and also what he's trying to say about the nature of opinions we are going to have i haven't really said anything about the nature of opinions no because for some reason these people find it abrasive when we say there's a difference between fucking opinions and facts about art they find that disgusting they're like how could you say that there's it's weird too because they'll be the ones to say that we think our opinions are facts and then when we say no no no those two things are different they'll be like triggered by it it's very strange it's like when it this is a this is a thing i get from a lot of people it's bad when we do it but they do it all the fucking time sample brief clips from mollers equivalent video discussing the exact same points well i hate to break this to you my precious audience but if you watch my other work i am one of the people on the internet who will tell you and simultaneously argue to the death that there is such a thing as objective value to content media can be bad in subjective ways but it can be bad all right that is not how you make the possessive form of my name my name is not rag my name is how do you fuck up a four letter name rag is video rag is video this video is is not belonging to rag rags it is four goddamn letters jesus uh in objective ways that can be measured discussed and explained star was the last Jedi is objectively bad content it is provable this is factual you love the themes that's nice but the film is still horribly written meaning that the value you have defined from the project itself is simply for you it is not measurable or provable in now this is very important what happened before this clip was me deconstructing the themes of the last jedi for about 10 minutes or so i go over all the themes of learning through failure um but like like learning from your own mistakes just just that stuff that's all in the movie and i break down how people will cite po even though he makes every decision correctly in the film it's just a matter of him not having the information he requires so it's completely unfair like you can't apply that theme but then contradictively we see that holdau and page tico both sacrifice themselves where we are told that it was a mistake for fin to do it right and so what i what i what i conclude is what you get from the themes is subjective because the actual provable consistency is broken so the film's attempt to say what it's saying is fucked right so objectively it's inconsistent objectively it farts on itself objectively it's bad that that's what i mean by that word right like i make that very clear and then i conclude objective i think that a lot of people confuse objective with absolute truth in a in a sense yeah which is not what objective means so just just to be clear objective means it's irrespective of people's opinions like the opinion that you have about something doesn't alter it essentially it is it is what it is regardless of how you feel does so when i say that uh something is objective it does not mean it's irrefutable sun and and and whatever else being defined objectively by standards the standards can change yes 20 years ago pluto was objectively was a planet not anymore dwarf planet now it is objectively no longer a planet the earth was uh flat one day a while ago that changed well that's not a that that's not a good example no well it's what i'm saying is we do what we can with all the information we have like with the information we had it may have been an objective assessment to us to take what we have in terms of the information and conclude that the earth was flat i'm not 100 sure on that one it's not as good as the the pluto example obviously well well the way to phrase it would be objectively the earth was an oblate spheroid before we knew it so if people said the earth was flat they would be wrong now if two different people had an opinion of the shape of the earth one of them could have the correct opinion but it wouldn't be the defining factor in whether or not it was correct here's the thing is it's all in the words that are being used so values are important value is the degree to which a standard is achieved objective is without influence from emotion therefore objective value is the standard being achieved without influence from emotion do you understand like is that clear like i i guess we need to say this more often because yeah because i guess what a lot of other people say objective they think that we're appealing to truth yeah yeah like in an absolute sense and depending on who you ask it's impossible to even ascertain absolute truth but it's but we we're talking about objective in the sense of it isn't defy your opinion doesn't have anything to do with it it doesn't change based on people's opinions so the takeaway here though is that i've got all this context explaining my position on themes and how they're inconsistent and so my conclusion is if you're arguing that the themes are what make this film great for you that has to be subjective because if you view them without emotion they're inconsistent and they fall apart the film sends mixed messages so it doesn't it doesn't function but but you can still enjoy them whatever themes you want to pull from the movie have at it man if you enjoy it then you can enjoy it and quintin seen the whole video as he stated and guess what he's gonna leave out of his assessment here all of the context yeah man that's that's rough that's a that's a shit if we refer to logic and argumentation for something to be objective one conclusion can only be drawn you can derive objective that's not true no that's not true you can have multiple objective conclusions you can have multiple conclusions yes and they can conflict yes you can you can draw if something is a binary proposition uh let's use theism as an example you can draw the conclusion that there is god you can draw the conclusion that there is not a god objectively only one of those things is true you're gonna piss off a fucking fab base again well here's the thing i haven't said which one's true or not true either rags is not said which one of those statements is the objective one but if we can relate it to something uh maybe this a little bit less testy for a lot of people um how do you how do you get an assessment of something that could have two conflicting objective results um you can take sample sizes of of like places with policies and conclude that the policy was uh the thing that that got the the place to where it is but then you could also have that that policy did not work in another place so you've got two results and then you'd be like well now we need more information to to figure out which one of these is less or more accurate because they're both still objective but one of them clearly lacks information and one of them doesn't or something like that like there's so uh i think i think the the theism argument really is a really good one um i was just gonna say an argument that doesn't um that can appeal to people who are religious still well i'm not a that's the thing i'm not appealing to either one well explaining how this works logically yeah it's like if you you a an intelligent person can come to the conclusion that there's a god an intelligent person can come to the conclusion there's no god right sure but that is a binary proposition either there is or there isn't both of those things cannot exist which means objectively one of those things is true but you can reach both conclusions until it's proven i mean um we talked about pedantry earlier but like uh the ongoing there's an ongoing conversation about finn's knowledge of the hyper drive right this all began with the obvious uh scene where he goes hyper drive blah blah blah is impossible and then ten minutes later he's like i know where it is so we can get there so people highlight objectively speaking that's an inconsistency and then someone throws in some extra information who's on the defensive side they say no because finn knew about the room once they found out that there was a hyper drive tracker he knew where the rooms were because all of the hyper drive trackers are powered by this one room so he knew where the room was he didn't know that that was powering a hyper drive tracker and you're like okay both of those were objective is there more information it's like well go back to the attacking side and you find out that um there's dialogue in the film where they say every single a-class process including hyper drive tracking has its own breaker meaning that that breaker in the room that finn's talking about is specifically designed for the hyper drive tracker meaning he had to have known it was a part of the hyper drive tracker so you see like the conversation with more information went one way then the other way and then finally ends on the other way and it's like is there any more information to this it happened with um just right when we were talking about holdo i attacked he defended i attacked he defended i attacked and he ran out of arguments and then i argued for him and then attacked myself again because i was like steel manning the opposition and it ends the conversation always comes to an end because you basically run out of information there's only so much information but you can achieve all of it objectively yeah and there's a spectrum of your ability to justify what your conclusion is up until the point where there's enough evidence that you can say okay we can have all these you know we can take all this information from all these sources put it together and boom we know objectively based on everything that regardless of whose opinion it is it doesn't change what the facts are yeah because ultimately um you could have five facts that bring you to a conclusion but if you're unaware that two of them even exist you have no capacity to know that they exist and your objective it's still an objective conclusion it's just based on three pieces of information instead of the full five yes because remember all objective facts exist as objective facts this is why they're not you know it this is why this objective like me and wolf can argue over a film while both assessing objectively because one of us lacks information that's probably going to be the case like i highlight to him remember that scene where this happens then he goes oh shit right okay um so was that objectively pluto was never a planet it was merely assessed incorrectly no pluto was objectively a planet it was based off of yeah based off of the definition that we created for planet though uh as our eyes we decided to change the definition that's what made it objectively not a planet yeah and besides it's only we only need to prove that it can happen we've done that with several other arguments now so even if you even if someone said that about pluto be like okay so what about all the other things we said anyway moving on wait yeah yeah let's see are you in some instances where there are few conditions and you realize that you can account for them have a with a film for a statement to be objective you must have counted for every single premise in existence to the point where you can listen to every argument and still what do you mean every premise in existence about logic for a premise he's making the argument that unless you you're basically unless you're omniscient you can't access you cannot uh assess objectively cannot assess whether or not something's objective yeah well i mean film's a finite so we don't have to now we're we're starting to bleed into the realm of philosophy regarding truth and knowledge yeah which i've i've always said if you can't agree that facts are a thing like if you think there is no such thing as a fact objectively like there is no idea of being able to assess anything free of bias like we can't just say that we we exist you can't even say that maybe this is something i need to discuss more at length with like steve mccray and those guys on the non sequitur show but there has to be a point where you accept certain presuppositions about the world yeah if you don't believe anything is factual or unbiased then we can't have a discussion because obviously it's then we can't have a discussion it's completely contradicting ideologies so there's no point in starting yeah draw the same conclusions there are some things about film that may be objective but if you're making a general statement on whether it is good or bad i do not like to say that is impossible but you're pushing the limits there so it's possible no um here it's important just because something has not been proven to be um well he's just he's admitted as theoretically possible well we don't he doesn't even know that that's the thing we don't know if it's possible to objectively assess a film well i'm talking about like no i'm i'm talking about something a little bit different i'm talking about whether or not something is is possible at all oh you don't even know if anything you could imagine is possible right for instance we don't know if it's possible that there could be a god we don't even know it's possible that yeah so when people say well it's possible that there's a god but we don't actually know that so if you're saying it's important for it the right opinion to understand that you can't just say things are possible without demonstrating that they're possible i mean i i'm still of the this wasn't a contradiction to what we said well he just said still sits in with what we said yeah well i'm yeah i'm just i'm just clarifying that because it's something that does need to i i feel that often gets um kind of skipped over people assume that just because they can imagine it it's possible but don't you think it's interesting though because he's we've got a tag team right now of him and quintin quintin's not saying this at all he's saying it's absolutely not possible while tiro's saying well i guess it's possible he said at least he said you're stretching but it's possible yeah that's the quintin doesn't have the information necessary to determine whether or not a preposition or sorry proposition is possible and all quintin doesn't have the capacity for a lot of he doesn't have the capacity for a lot of things as we've already seen but you know we'll just add that to the pile yeah even more is in-depth five-hour video does not begin to account for the numerous conditions opinions and further perception you wouldn't know that tiro you haven't watched them you can't say anything about what's in those videos all right and even responses to his individual points the best this theory can do is pedestal the opinions of those who look quick calling objectivity of fucking theory what does it even yes is everything a theory by that logic then yes it is a theory you have no reason to believe something is possible or true unless you can justify your belief in it all right because every time you say well this could have happened there is also in your mind an equally plausible outcome in which it couldn't have happened and so you begin this ridiculous regress into the infinite possibilities of what may or may not happen and you have to draw the line somewhere and i draw the line at is there anything that we've been given that would justify us believing that a proposition can or cannot happen to clarify for people tiro did not watch my videos he had quintin watch them and respond to them because he's a star wars fan and tiro is not um at least that's my if if i'm completely wrong on that that might be possible but as far as i know tiro did not see my videos whatsoever look to be backed up your conclusion may be that it is bad but that is based on your premises and different people have different premises if my premises without emotion then it would be objective because that's what that weird means the robot remember the robot no they don't like the robot i like that he said that though because again that falls in line with what we're saying he's like it's only bad by your premise it's like our premises to assess it with consistency irrelevant of emotion so yes we agree tiro i'm glad we got to that point and it's what even is good and bad they're good and bad there's a shit ton of definitions but i usually try and talk about specifics so to be inconsistent is bad because it's lazy or it's contradictory or it's there's loads of words you can use and i absolutely agree that i should try and avoid saying bad instead of using words like um uh instead of saying bad as a whole bad script writing bad acting bad blah blah and then you go to specifics of what makes bad acting what makes blah blah and that's why my videos are so long i try and qualify all this stuff and when you have a discussion with somebody you can say all right let's start this off by coming to agree so that our opinions don't get in the way like if we we can agree on something for this for the purposes of this conversation let's agree on what objective acting oh and by the way as someone just pointed out in chat and several people have said to make the statement there's no such thing as like objectivity uh in art that's that's an objective statement correct that is a statement that requires evidence that is a that's making a positive claim vague subjective concepts in themselves you would have to put yourself on every single little spectrum pertaining to an individual and explain why it is bad on that spectrum no i wouldn't i go with my singular premise you've done is explain why it is bad on your spectrum even if your it's not my spectrum it doesn't belong to me it's a fucking stupid why do people assume that i've invented objectivity yeah no one has ever been objective in analysis ever would you think i got it from that i just invented it like come on yeah me and rags just invented on our own and then wolf also did and then we met each other that's what happened i just got i just got fucking sick of people's feelings feelings are gay who needs them your logic is valid you have not proved it to be tortologists and thus tortologists he's referring to a tautology and most people don't know what that is which means saying it is it helpful to your audience the right opinion tortology is useless restatement or saying the same thing twice using different words yes nobody is going to know if you yeah talk well tautologists i suppose so but well no but does this does that fit in his his sentence structure does that actually make sense i don't know he used facetious incorrectly earlier so this i just want to hear this again to see if you use tautologists correctly different people have different premises different emphasis on topics and different standards what even is good and bad they're vague subjective concepts in themselves you would have to put yourself on every single little spectrum pertaining to an individual and explain why it is bad on that spectrum or you've done is explain why it is bad on your spectrum even if your logic is valid you have not proved it to be tortologists and that doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense i'm sorry tiaro but this shouldn't be happening you're supposed to be like a literature expert or whatever i'm just a dude but that's not what tautologists means i think what he was probably going for is like it doesn't make it toad um irrefutable you might be referring to like tautology in the sense of logic where it's a formula or assertion that's true in every possible interpretation that's probably what he means which is probably what he means in that sense but here's the thing if he means it in that sense that's sort of correct yes if you you want to have a tautology so it's true in every possible interpretation but then that gets us and then people are saying what's the nature of truth blah blah blah we gotta we gotta cut the line somewhere yeah in symbolic logic that word means correct in all situations which yeah that's probably what he meant so here's the thing you say that word in a video two percent five percent of your audience is gonna know what that is i only know it because i happened to hang out with some people and they talk about and i just use google and look for the definition and then re-listen to what they said and still end up confused it's just like i would is like don't use words like that people most people won't know what you're talking about and that's not objective so the question if something isn't tautologist that it's not objective it's like you're gonna need to change the word that's not to clarify again so the word that he was using it to mean was what again um how can a tautology not be necessarily true um in logic tautology is defined as a logical truth of the propositional calculus if you're preferred semantics of logical truth is true in all possible worlds then yes a tautology is true in all possible worlds and hence necessarily true let's just for semantics for logical truth it's just all we need to do is condense what he said down into the words you're using a two subjective to be objective that's what he said in in the process of about 30 seconds um because the word bad is too subjective it's too vague he used the word vague at one point so and this is the thing it's like um bad has a definition which means it is possible for me to be objective depending on what i meant by bad and the first fucking definition of bad is of poor quality and then you're like okay but that's not um objective because what does quality mean and it's like quality is by which a standard is achieved and a tautology isn't even necessarily useful because you could say something like all all 10-legged lizards have 10 legs that's tautologically correct but it's not really helpful or really all that meaningful sure um i mean yeah no benefit of the doubt for me once again but they do that to us infinitely they literally look at the first definitions of all the words i use and you'll have your answer no like in this scenario obviously i'm not going to do that every time because i'm not i'm not a god with words question becomes to mollern rags what are objective value well you know what if you uh took us up on a debate or if you exactly mollern on his debate then you would have your answer but instead uh you ran like a bitch and you refused to have a discussion with him so um if you really wanted to if you were true in your pursuit of knowledge you know what does he mean he asks in this video when he could just ask him all or what he means he's this curious to find out what we mean by objective value and yet he fucking shies away from every chance at having a debate because he doesn't believe that objective value for all exists like why even ask us then you twat what it means it's as we've just explained how a standard is achieved irrelevant of emotion how is that for you yet you run out of fucking insults late brown guy asked again i don't know if he asked me to debate uh the right opinion asked me to debate him i'm not saying he didn't i'm just saying i didn't see where he did he didn't as far as i know he hasn't emailed me he certainly didn't contact you before he made his video i know that yeah i i haven't been as far as i know i have not been contacted and if he did it on twitter that's the worst way to do it especially because i didn't have twitter for pretty much almost and more importantly what are subjective values and why are what do you think subjective values are it's all based on how you feel about the thing what it makes you feel jeez it's not hard why are you making this seem like it's some kind of fucking 40 chess game based on your influence by personal feelings oh oh rags did you catch that well i forgot he says this such a fucking asshole just listen to that listen to 30 seconds not objective so the question becomes to mollern rags what are objective values and more importantly what are subjective values and why are they factually worse well why are they factually worse what does that even why are you making your why are you making your finger quotes like that's something we've said that's not exactly that's not something we've ever said he's implying that we say that the subjective take on things is factually worse than the objective take on things not something me and rags have ever fucking said okay maybe um i mean the only way that you could spin that is to say that um uh you can show factually that the subjective is not objective but i'm stretching so hard to make it what he said makes sense the fact that he said worse it's it grinds my gears to it like i'm not putting objective above subjective i'm drawing the line between them it's like two sides of the road man they're just going to different places but they exist together oh and look there's a cross for me quinton there's a difference between objective value and subjective value i know you understand that whether you enjoy something is irrelevant when we're talking about measurable mechanics within films or games and their quality i was told you shy away from conversation with your dissenting peers which i was and that i shouldn't hold my breath breathe i need to oh wait is that breath that is breath right hold my um i think that's i don't know goes to show why i may have been spelled that but i still figured i would give it a shot your excuse is pretty damn sheepish maybe next time i guess yeah i stand by that 100 he said the reason he doesn't want to have a discussion with me is because he can't be asked to explain to me that objective value doesn't exist in in oh yeah it's breathe explained through numerous comments and in numerous videos objective values are things that are measurable discussable and provable and subjective feelings are discussable no thing things aren't objective because they're discussable you can discuss subjective things where are you getting these definitions from why can't you show it why can't you fucking show it that quote he just showed was not what he just said god damn it i think it's an i think it's not objective because you can discuss it with somebody it doesn't mean it's not objective are things qualifier if you like the themes or if the movie looks yeah straw man right there i didn't say if you like the themes i was like you can't claim the themes are an objective objective consistency that the film thoughts on their own themes like i said but he's he's now turned it into oh yeah more or said if you like the themes that's just subjective it's like no i went through the themes i went through the themes so how much value they had in terms of consistency besides it's already a meme on my fucking channel like you see people saying it already rushing to the themes to defend your film it's just like man are you like out of arguments is all you got you just say themes it's like it's it's the equivalent of god works in mysterious ways it's good because that costs money and basically anything that he would call an opinion everything what i thought we just went over how i thought he said that our opinion we say that our opinions are objective so we wouldn't call that an opinion would we i've never said that no of course we've never said any this fucking shit we just keep saying that we did but yeah take me out of context again go on Quinn and basically anything that he would call an opinion everything positive said about the film is either about the superficial elements that take money to generate film is visually stunning and yes Disney do yeah do you think amazing graphics just fucking grow on trees this is the thing uh there are i'm not denying the talent that is in these CGI artists that is in uh what i'm going to conclude on here is that you can't buy script writing quality like 90 of the time all the people who are being bought from let's say there's this script writers in this chat room right now who would be better at doing this than ryan johnson in terms of a consistent script that was respectful now in this podcast and how how much do you think they'd be paid compared to ryan johnson it's gonna be a hell of a lot less even though ryan johnson and it's literally just because of the name recognition and it's like that's that's the issue you can buy CGI you can buy you can even go as far as buying good acting and i'm not going to say that there's no good acting in the film but the the script you can't buy a script most of the time like it's it's really hard to get a consistently good writer yes i don't think it's very i don't think it's very controversial to say that the last Jedi looks very expensive and that's the thing you get a lot like black panther despite having a lot of money the CGI was a mess but it depends on what they spent the money on but if the script was great the CGI wouldn't matter it would have been like oh well it's it's just a bit of a blemish like leave alone obviously and nobody would be saying the CGI artists did terrible because we'd all assume that they were just rushed because most CGI films will get the job done if they get the money they're supposed to get like this is such a hope for a high profile movie like this and this is the thing it's a very this is a very long subject to discuss and it's a very interesting one but let's just skip right over it and say that rags and mohler just think that if you like the visuals or the the acting or the themes that all of that has nothing to do with reality or measurements or anything it's just like yeah that's that's what we said fine yeah yeah the way that you feel about it is subjective he has money all the subjective arguments that stem from themes to interpretations to feelings the vast majority of my points aren't about perspective we're talking about facts and if you don't want to agree with them then it will be difficult to have discussions in the future because this is precisely how one creates a scale and moves on from it if you think the last Jedi is great good luck ever calling other films bad and there you go I'm talking about an objective scale so if I was to say that the last Jedi is amazing and then I watch a film that's exactly the same as last Jedi but let's just say in the Jurassic Park universe and I go it's terrible for all of these reasons and then someone's like but all of those things are in the last Jedi and you said that was great I'm like well uh and that's what we call an objective contradiction that that is just a literal it's hypocrisy you've you've got two separate standards and it's usually based on a bias like for example I love Star Wars I don't love Jurassic Park simple as that uh subjectively though you of course could hold those two positions you could be like I love this film despite its flaws or I hate this film because of its flaws because feelings don't have to be justified by facts precisely how they kind of work obviously they can be influenced by facts but um I thought I was pretty specific in that little bit I was like I think so because I ever once in a while go back and I'll watch them and I I don't really I mean really when you get down to it it's not that controversial to say that some there are some things that you could measure based on facts and regardless of how you feel about them the things that are in the film are in the film there's a finite amount of things that are in that film it doesn't go on infinitely yeah and I I just coming down to the simple version uh a character knowing something that they shouldn't is bad in this film and then another film you're watching you go it's good well you can't say that because you you've just created a standard back there so now you gotta you gotta stick with it you guys are avoiding the real questions would rags kiss quintin on the cheek no I like my bear is smart oh come on look at that cheek I hope that you can understand why this perspective which might initially seem unimpressive the perspective that we actually have or the one that you made up the one that you made up important when described in a flat nature is the base issue with all six hours of rags and Mahler's videos about the last jet they're amazing like the subscribe that I bring the state that your opinions which mostly come down to things like thoughts about the lore and it picks about dialogue thoughts about the law and it picks about dialogue congratulations quintin you're the king of fucking straw bed that was beautiful amazing fucking amazing and but remember this is coming from the same guy whose last Jedi video said if you take away the script the characters and the plot was it yeah yeah he said in his in his first video for anybody in the audience who does not know he said if you ignore the stuff about the characters the the story of the plot of the universe that the film is actually pretty good that's paraphrasing I will completely admit it's paraphrasing but it's hilarious this is the same mouth same guy incredible quintin you don't want to be caught on camera saying that it's pretty because that can never be objective facts that get his full sentence in there yeah described in a flat nature is the base issue with all six hours of rags and Mahler's videos about the last Jedi to state that your opinions which mostly come down to things like and to be fair most of my video wasn't really so much about the last Jedi as it was about the things that I he said yeah about things surrounding the last as for my videos I had shit tons of criticism about what I would say the entire points of the film a lot of the playoffs I was ripping into how they don't even make sense which is very important you don't want your the biggest emotional impacts of the film being based on completely illogical and unrealistic scenarios that's not gonna help not good thoughts about the lore and nitpicks about dialogue are objective facts that can never be some of them some of them it's almost not all yeah not all of our problems with the film are objective when some people say when you say nitpick you usually mean it's valid but it's tiny right that's usually what it means a lot of people yeah no when people say it's a nitpick that's normally that's normally because they don't have an argument against it yeah it's like they're saying yes you're right but it doesn't fucking matter if Gandalf has stabbed me but it didn't really hurt that much well I'm more I'm actually gonna go for a genuine nitpick here like the sun was an inch higher in this scene compared to the scene before it also and that doesn't match how a sun would move and you be like yes obviously that's because the film is not filmed in the way that you're kind of implying that it would be and you'd be like that's true but it doesn't fucking matter in the slightest thus it usually gets considered to be a nitpick now he said the this stuff concerns nitpicks about the law and then it's like but to say that those are objective and it's like but didn't you just agree that they may be valid but they're tiny but also they're not objective oh so yeah it's it's a strange amalgamation of what is and isn't reasonable in terms of the criticism it's very strange I don't also I don't like the way that he he paints every issue that we have as being objective also someone just said rags Tiro said you declined his invitation to the debate unless you were in his video is this true or not that is false that is not true at all whoever told you that is giving you bad info my dude yeah I don't have no reference for that yeah I anyone ever declined his invitation on that um on those grounds no objective facts that can never be disputed by anyone is ridiculous some things are objective facts that can't be disputed by anyone you dipshit that's how literally reality works like he says it like this this monstrous thing that we've come up with yeah the like science has been a thing for hundreds and hundreds of years like man you're gonna have to accept that there are objective we have to agree on objective facts about and that's what we have processes to get ourselves closer than that he's saying Tiro said that himself on his discord well if Tiro said that then Tiro is fucking lying yeah I don't I don't remember that ever happening and I've I've I've often been the um sort of mediary between them but pushing on so why do you hate Quintus so much it's like why do you think man like look what he's saying about our shit yeah I don't I don't recall ever saying that to the right opinion that doesn't sound like something I'd say no I didn't like your video and I hated the last Jedi he will at least be sensible enough to tell you that's just a difference of opinion oh wait that's the thing I was talking about earlier hang on and I disagreed with your video I didn't hang on gotta go back a little bit further objective facts that can never be disputed by anyone is ridiculous let us compare and contrast if you go to I hate everything and you tell him I disagreed with your video I didn't like your video and I hated the last Jedi he will at least be sensible enough to tell you that's just a difference of opinion yeah no um we went to to tie well I had everything came to us we had the long conversation and then he agrees that um that the film was of poor quality he didn't say oh that's your opinion guys he was like oh wow yeah so uh rip that I suppose yeah and it's only natural for the rest of I think all those things and the thing is like you could have been a part of that conversation maybe you know like I would have been there if I wasn't like away from you know my house also high five to this comment can you see it let's take a look yeah um yeah things are fair to criticize the film for if you truly this is the first video of yours that I've disliked I'm not going to defend the autists harassing other people because you were right about their ridiculous behavior you only focused on the morons though where are the legitimate critiques and reviews by competent creators there are real issues with this film and you only wanted to respond to the Spergs you know yeah I mean that's what I said let's see his his response basically yeah feel that way I feel how I feel and you feel how you feel get over what but if you that will you feel you feel you feel get over it's like okay that's that makes IHE work look worse that makes them look worse dude because he's ignoring the question he ignored the criticism yeah you're only looking at morons yeah someone was asking him a legit question why are you not really going over the the the problems with the film why how come you're focusing on the little Spergs who don't mean anything and he dodged the question he dismissed the question hey you know oh okay if you want to make IHE look worse good job Quintenill you did it rags and tell them that you disagree with their videos and that you actually love the last Jedi you will get comments like we're gonna do this so just to clarify before whatever the fuck he's about to show uh if someone told us they love the last Jedi what would you say to that rags if someone said they love the last Jedi yeah oh I'd ask why um in context like I oh I like I if they were a friend of mine I'd be like sure go for it but if it's just like some random are going I love the last Jedi as I was walking past them something like that's great yeah I see those all the time on like Twitter and stuff sometimes like well I like the last Jedi okay yeah it's it's fine I don't even like say anything but I I would be you know why I'm curious why they liked it but you say you wouldn't tell them they're wrong you saying you wouldn't say that hey your feelings are invalid is that not something you say no no I wouldn't I don't know if I trust you rags I'm gonna have to go with Quintenill on this one you have to get into the definition of invalid oh yeah that's true no because of this the vast majority of my points I'm making a perspective we are talking about facts I am seriously doubting your capacity to understand so he did a really bad British voice and then a nasal American voice but that the comment he read was I doubt your ability to assess quality is it okay well this is the thing I didn't say anything about what people's this is a response to someone saying I love the last Jedi this is a response to someone saying the last Jedi is a great film like a consistent film a well-written film that's what my response to that would be but remember there are people who write articles on websites and all sorts of stuff and they call people who did not like the last Jedi Russian bots trolls racist sexist fascist white supremacist bigots xenophobes unironically like this is what they do so I don't want to hear your bullshit boo-hooing about well if I say this on the internet people might make mean comments they might say that I don't really have the ability to assess quality like like you're gonna have to grow the fuck up you're just gonna have to grow the fuck up man points are a lot of big boy quitting I mean I I mean I know that's a conversation beard he's reading my comment with a silly voice rags and you're not taking him seriously how could you what the fuck man he's this is this is this is slam dunking us right now I got no fucking chance you got a silly voice rags with fucked you will get comments like this the vast majority of my points are not about perspective we are talking that's literally by design I say a thing for example just um the last Jedi opens with a space battle all your comments huh are these your comments this is something I've said um oh because he doesn't he he doesn't say that what do you mean no he doesn't say that these comments are yours oh he said you'll get responses like this he's probably gonna end this with saying that was from Moeller by the way which proves he's an asshole or something like that I guess we'll see about facts I am seriously doubting your capacity to understand quality and of course my personal favorite if you like the last Jedi good luck calling other films bad but fuck you you've removed the context again you've already shown this clip and they're gonna do it for a third time now removing the context again I'm so proud of you you're such a good little editor man Quinton's shit the vast majority of my points aren't about perspective we're talking about facts I am seriously doubting your capacity to understand equality oh hey that was me that was you yes to clarify rags is probably referring to objective quality rather than whether or not it made you feel good because rags can't actually disprove your feelings I might have just been insulting him oh yeah either way oh you know what you might have been hyperbolic or melancholic or vitriolic or sympathetic or mecculizolic you never know maybe he's judging you wrong that's how that way yeah let's think I um that it's weird that before because I haven't seen this part of the video so he says that comment and before I even know that comment is me because we can't remember everything we've ever said I was like that one doesn't seem all that bad it was like oh it's me um yeah Cinema Sins is in the in the chat hello there hello we're ripping into someone else who's criticized us today it's amazing the last Jedi is great oh by the way by the way Cinema Sins is way better than Quinton ever because if we said Quinton we want you to hop into eFap with us and talk about this Quinton would say no and you'd say yes yeah I mean anybody who's up to actually defend their claims and respond to criticism you get a plus in my book hello John this thesis statement in my subject because it's not our thesis statement it belongs to us oh he's just like I'm declaring that this is the thesis statement is like no I don't have a thesis statement I never made one that's ridiculous geez what a what a fucking joke he's just he's just pulling it out of his asshole this is their thesis statement oh okay I guess don't ask me when he plays the same point three times over completely isolated from everything before and after it that's how you know that he's just destroyed us it's done he made a silly voice rags it's done fucked yeah we're inherently toxic to uh I don't know I guess reviews or film culture or we're toxic we have discussions with people we say that you can feel however you want and that's just fine to feel however you want to feel we can disagree with you on video quality and we can still be friends we're not gonna block you or refuse debates based off of offhand information that we don't have um gosh what else I mean we're just not I guess we are kind of sorry talk about like I'm not going to say it's a dog whistle but using the word toxic when you refer to us it feels like you're aiming somewhere to me like yes I mean but absolutely not saying that's the case but that word has been a little bit it's been poisoned a little bit right toxic like a lot of people don't even want to use it anymore because it keeps getting used in specific environments don't you um didn't doesn't quit and think you're racist uh I can't remember who thinks I'm racist I can't remember if he said I'm racist a lot of people said I'm racist though because I heard that one of the reasons he wanted to debate you is because he heard you were racist that could be a thing that I've actually heard if not then I like take it back but I think that's the thing you that I've actually heard from what I heard from because I had a couple conversations with TRO about Quinton he basically said Quinton doesn't want to speak to me at all not just because of the fact that he'd have to explain what objective means to me but he'd also want to he wants to avoid internet drama is what he said which is the most videos like this yeah no right like he makes a parody video of me and he makes this video and he says he wants to avoid drama by because discussing this with me would cause drama right that's how that works this is rag racist of course he is punk this is why fucking apostrophes are important I am not rag I'm ragu rag is video come on there's no consistency to win an opinion is or is not measurable and overall I'm sorry what you just imply that we don't actually bring a standard to the table because it's pretty much the opposite of what we do but hey really I would I mean if you want to talk about our standard really what I'd say is like in a nutshell our standard is consistency yeah logic is the baseline for a lot of the objective criticisms because logic does not care about feelings it never has never well I would say that in one word if I had if I'd use a single word for me consistency this thesis statement in my what's with this fucking body language what's with this calling that your thesis statement subjective opinion is like you had sick you had five hours of video and he pulled out this one thing from the five hours like yeah it's just these is inherently toxic there is no logic to how this is constructed there is no logic to how this is constructed that's the only thing we have a fucking talk about is how the you like the foundation of everything we do and we won't shut up about it I get bored talking about it myself I put myself to sleep talking about it because you talk about it so much this this podcast would be an example fucking hell there's no logic to what me and rags talk about yeah we never have references and we never show contradictions that's not what we do there is no consistency to win no consistency an opinion is or is not measurable and overall is just a measly pot all right so it's it's you can measure things as a binary without measuring them as a quantity like I like saying you can measure that something is there or not without saying that it is X amount you know yeah okay good I just I've never I've never had to say anything like that we're dealing with what is essentially an alien at this point rags that's why that's why it's like you have to start saying things that are just fundamental and it'll be like a revolution to quentin I've never had to explain this to people and so it's kind of strange sometimes to think of the words is like if I have to tell is like measuring the tree you know it was like you can tell if there's a tree there or not without knowing how exactly tall yeah to clarify when me and rags are talking about logic it's not just about logic according to our universe if they have their own rules in the fiction of course like it's the film's universe yeah the consistency is probably rags was right it's probably a better word for it it's consistent within its own rules or the logic of our universe which it's it's portraying you know yeah that's why both Star Wars and the imaginary of Dr. Parnassus can both be analyzed with the same level of consistency because as long as the film is consistent with itself we're good yeah like if you watch a film that's based as in like our world and then someone gets shot in the head and survives we're sitting there like we lack information for this why are they alive as like generally that kills people maybe he got lucky or what door is he there who win an opinion is or is not measurable and overall it is just a measly podium constructed by these two to insist to their audience that their opinions are universally better than everyone else's well you're a we've never said that we've never ever said that do you want us to conclude on what you're doing quentin because it's gonna be a little bit more brutal we're considering how much of a fucking dirty little shit you you've taken on us basically yeah here's the thing like this is this speaks to your character quentin that's the difference it's like this what you're doing right here this says a lot about who you are as a person the kind of things that you're willing to do like i would never be comfortable doing that to somebody else i would never i'd never do that to somebody else and if i did i'd feel terrible for it and i'd take it back me and rags project from a podium that our opinions should be accepted as fact that's all we do that's all we do now i can say that you should accept my opinion as fact but then i will go through the motions to prove it i will probably talking about a specific one right yeah like you know about all of your opinions i think that two plus two was four and i think you should accept that as fact because bring in the cart full of reasons because here's two things and there's another two things and i count things another four things so you see it's we can demonstrate we can share you corroborate evidence with other absolutely this might seem blunt or crude but the ultimate issue to me is that malin rags believe that they are part of a battlefield fighting their holy and protected beliefs what socially being the fuck you're on about quinton what the fuck we're fighting a war for our beliefs okay i mean that's that seems a little excessive but how are you not doing the exact same thing yeah um it's strange though i mean yes i mean you fight for what you believe in you know thing but this i don't know why it's a holy i don't know what say what's holy about it i mean maybe if you hoist up a principle as if it's holy or if you believe it's sacrosanct in some way but what a strange way to phrase it i mean yeah we we just want to make us look kind of insane i'm guessing that's what this is like look at look at rags and more of fighting their war for movie opinions makes us feel culty absolutely that's that's that's definitely the impression i'm getting this is why i hate his fucking parts in this video because the t ro stuff there's more of a discussion to be had with this this is just this is just literal attacks like quinton you're not making a good script here you're literally being a dick and that's about it how long have we been going we are up to five hours and 20 minutes jesus believe that they are part of a panel let's keep going a little bit longer because i'm eventually i'm just gonna have to call it uh yeah as soon as you conk out man we'll we'll cut it off there like just let me know let's try to get through the let's try to get through the quinton bit fighting their holy and protected beliefs i can't even refer to it as holy and protected beliefs the sir holy i don't know what he says by protected beliefs it's like i will attempt to protect my beliefs based off of evidence and you know logic it's also important to remember that remember kids you don't choose what you believe ding socially they use their flood blood thesis or flood thesis maybe that's an actual phrase let me look that up yeah you go ahead look it up that's going in my fucking april fools day video though flood thesis no this is about flood damage assessment uh um and hydrology they're flood thesis i'll call it the holy flood flood thesis the holy flood thesis give me just a second is there a tripling narrative involved in that i wonder nothing i couldn't find narrative tripling either flood feces um next time i see my brother uh because he um he's like an english major i'll ask him if he's ever heard of narrative tripling and flood thesis let's hear it again because i can get him when you can't just google it i'll ask him if those are things believe that they're part of a battlefield fighting their holy and protected beliefs socially they use their flood thesis to justify the how the fuck did tRO approve this this is by the way what i sent as tRO in terms of what he should be deleting from the video because it's just outright false so tRO wants this part gone well he agreed he was like yeah well i'll he he said to me and i can go back and get the quote if it gets contested he said to me that there are some things that he's gonna want to discuss but there are absolutely certain parts that he's gonna have to delete like via being inaccurate yeah like fuck what part what what isn't that a part of in his section i mean jeez like everything he said is how did you approve this tRO yeah man how when you listen to this were you like yeah this comes this comes across as a well adjusted individual he hasn't taken two normal dudes on the internet and turned them into fucking like cultist warriors fighting for the last jedi to be considered bad what the hell the fact that they believe themselves to be warriors you two are not warriors none of us are warriors we are geeks online to talk well no well you can't say that here's the thing quinton you can't change how you frame things if in one sentence you're gonna say that we're fighting a battle then you also can't say we're not warriors i mean it's either one or the other man not to mention because in a sense we never said it he put the words in our mouth and then told us we were wrong for saying it yeah i mean okay if i would describe myself as a warrior but i mean if you want to say yeah you're a warrior fighting a culture war i'm like yeah i mean i understand what you mean yeah i mean because i i i do see aspects of it as a culture war which makes one a warrior by kind of by that definition but man i don't i don't say it in like a glorified way well this is the thing once again quinton can't show a fucking quote can he yes like because we've never said this this is not something we say he's like you people are these things but you know what you're not these things it's like yeah that sums up this video a little bit doesn't it or at least quit quinton's fucking part of it about films stop acting like you are how basically as someone who knows more about star wars than the right opinion it is going to be my job in this video to disagree with some of rax's points about how telling is that statement it's gonna be my job to disagree okay it's not even kind of it's like that's kind of fucked up like when you hear that statement the right opinion are you not like it's a little that sounds like i'm kind of you know like he already has you know he's got a job to do for me come on right we've got to fight our holy war about star wars the lore all crusades are just the universe etc not because there is any factual basis to the fact that he has 100 yet you know you painted you painted us as bad people there's no factual basis to the fact that he's 100 wrong okay just say that who is he referring to is that me what's that you i don't know i think it's you because he said it's my job to disagree with rax so you must be referring to you the lore the universe etc not because there is any factual basis to the fact that he is 100 wrong not that there's any factual basis to the fact that he is wrong okay um that's useful now that you've agreed that there's not factual evidence that i'm wrong um i'm so confused by that like should i like still be here can i go down maybe maybe there's like another half to that statement that makes it make more sense because what maybe i'm holding out hope for 100 wrong and not because he is a bad person for having opinions that i disagree with but because i am basically having to prove that his opinions are not universally measurable are not ultimately 100 provable and are certainly not anything resembling of what no the same thing three times that you haven't said no yeah not only did he say things that i've never said but he also said i have no way to factually prove things that i have to prove because he starts off by saying at the beginning which is what we were giggling at like there's i can't 100% factually prove this and then he says i have to prove this okay i have written out what i think his his sentence is structured a little bit smaller so he said i'm here to disagree with rags not that there's any factual basis to the fact that he's wrong but because there are no objective truths about his opinions like that is essentially what he said and also quinton has this problem of painting all of our opinions as objectively true yeah which is not the case i share my subjective perspective on star wars several times in my assessment and i i signpost that because i like to let people know um yeah just just clarify that what that statement i just said condensed again basically is him saying i'm disagreeing with him not because he's factually wrong but because he's factually wrong like he said there's not factual basis to the fact that you're wrong but because you're not objectively correct did you get what i mean like he did not think about that statement because of how long it is he thought that sounded right but that doesn't make sense so let's give this one more listen because i think this is one big ball of gobbledygook instructed by these two to insist to their audience that their opinions are universally better than everyone else's this might seem blunt or crude but the ultimate issue to me is that it seems like a lot of rags believe that they're part of a battlefield fighting their holy and protected beliefs socially they use their flawed feces to justify the fact that they believe themselves to be warriors you two are not warriors none of us are warriors we are geeks online to talk about funny quintin we don't even disagree with you there but films stop acting like you are warriors basically someone who knows more about star wars than the right opinion it is going to be my job in this video to disagree with some of rags as points about star wars just this fucking music man i know right go power through god damn like you are warriors basically as someone who knows more about star wars than the right opinion it is going to be my job in this video to disagree with some of rags as points about star wars the lore the universe etc not because there is any factual basis to the fact that he is 100% wrong and not because he's a bad person for having opinions that i disagree with but because i am basically having to prove that his opinions are not universally measurable he said do you catch it yep so his sentence doesn't make any sense yes what his this is this is a bunch of gobbledygig so for for those out there who are like you break up the senses they don't make any sense we watched it all in a row he says i'm here to disagree with rags when he brings up points about blah blah not because there's a factual basis to the fact that he's wrong but because he's factually wrong this is like willow and quintan he said it in so many words that he fucking contradicted himself and that is why that what he said is not concise versus what i try and do which is to be explicit i don't always win at that but you know i like how in the chatter saying no factual basis to the fact but it's it's strange um the someone's saying that like having to prove is like having to prove why why are you compelled to prove something if you have just admitted that you can't as just this is a strange thing to say like this proofreading is important just don't have it be done by tiara are not ultimately 100 percent provable and are certainly not anything resembling objective i've seen many people say something along the lines of it's a well-made movie it's just a bad star wars movie which you can't really argue with which rags disputes as he believes that it is both well okay serious thing he said you cannot argue with it you can all you all it takes us for me to say i can't argue with it i've proven him wrong yeah because if you look in the dictionary star wars movie doesn't actually have a definition you'd have to talk to the person about what their standard would be for that yeah when you're saying it cannot be argued right normally people mean that in a very colloquial broad sense like you can't reasonably argue it but when you say you can't argue that this is a bad film or a bad star wars film or whatever all it takes is one person to argue with you and you're done son that's all it is well they would only be half right because the last jedi is a poorly made movie also it is a bad star wars movie as well by definition of being a bad film is that star wars film i mean obviously again a bit coy but obviously they'll just take that very seriously and run this into the ground let's think just the fact that i've disagreed i'm right because they said you can't argue it yeah it's like yeah i'll argue it i mean there you go yeah if we to take him very literally so you can't argue with it he can but obviously we could give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's saying that you can't argue against what what is essentially a feeling of it doesn't feel like star wars but the statement was it's not star wars let's even do that let's do that because earlier on he said he's never heard any good arguments against it so he's making a statement that he cannot possibly justify well like he shouldn't even agree with he should say that yes it is a good star wars film let's think what he said he opened up by saying i've never heard any arguments against the film and then he is saying that you can't argue against the film by what method have you used to determine that that is not justification for you making that statement you're not being consistent i'm like i said if we go with the benefit of the doubt and assume i hate everything he's saying that there's someone out there saying it doesn't feel like a star wars movie he'd be like well i can't argue that with you because you know blah blah but but the the structure of the the sentence came across is quite a bit different to that if you were to well go a different way with it let's say all right she follows this by saying that he's seen a lot of criticisms that are not oh hold up hold up wait yeah but that did that did happen uh we someone's saying on the dishonorable podcast episode 14 at four hours 10 minutes and 10 seconds you said you would not be you said you wouldn't want him in the call we that that that happened that's different though um that's yeah that's different we wanted we wanted to react to this video there was there was an idea that tiaro might guest on it but the fact is like it's gonna cause chaos if we have not only this enormous video to respond to but we have someone trying to defend it like i said that the easiest way would be what we did with cinema since since response to the video i'm not putting a condition on discussing things with him that's just whether or not he would be on this actual stream in and of itself and i believe the conversation went that uh if we were obliged to do that why wasn't tiaro obliged to bring rags on to discuss his video before making it like there's a there's no reason that that should happen it's just something that we could do really it's the quintin thing when you get to the quintin thing uh man that is oh that's that's really just being dare i say it toxic oh absolutely like i don't even think that's i think that's just straight up true like what what quintin said is blatantly not true about a lot of us but um what we're okay with is is tiaro coming on like that that's that's fine yeah and if and if and if and i'm and i'm perfectly 100 percent i absolutely will say that he misunderstood that i i totally agree i feel nothing against the right but rags has never denied debating him but we're not we're not obliged to bring him on to when we're responding to this video i wouldn't say that that's considered debate like we all all tiaro needs to do if he wants to come on is just um how i just go he doesn't even have to watch yeah absolutely if he wants to come on the next e-fap he can absolutely do that and i will happily set that up with him if he wants to just move past it and be buddies it's fine with me too in fact i would prefer that i'm totally willing oh yeah i'm i'm trying to maintain my relationship with him because i think he's a he's a he's a good guy it's just that this is obviously unfortunate because this is a bad video this was before he met either of me or rags and for some reason let quintan loose like that was a mistake let's just put it that way here's the thing if tiaro if he watches this um then is like he he made some mistakes some pretty really huge mistakes the quintan part being a big part of it but if he wants to just move on that's fine with me because man i no one needs more enemies quite frankly oh yeah we're out of that shit yeah obviously we didn't you know poke the bear here well i guess you could argue that rags started it by responding to i ate everything but i mean but then nothing to do with the right opinion and then that had nothing to do with me and yet i was brought in too so it was like yeah that's very strange uh it was very antagonistic in that sense but even i would say that i didn't i didn't i didn't throw the first punch i would say that i ate you did yeah and that's the thing it's it's all worth discussing i'd say and we'll absolutely set it up uh if tiaro is on board with that yeah come on yeah what is really bothering me about this entire conversation is that a lot of criticism i would actually to me i i would be interested to see what he has to say about things that we look at oh you mean like the video essays we've covered yeah like if he wanted to cover one with us i would be interested how he goes through those videos yeah we could always find something that you know preferably would be someone he's not friends with because we've covered quinton before so we wouldn't want him to have to do that we could talk about how kill monger was correct yes criticisms but what is really bothering me about this entire conversation is that a lot of criticisms for this movie are not actually criticisms at all oh like what now we're just putting criticisms up in quotes okay he then proceeds to address this society example where someone said that it was a bad movie because they didn't use the will help scream in it just stupid yeah but it's fucking so stupid even i hate everything said he's not understandable why even put that in the video to me and wolf we we cited it was like why did you put that in he was like i don't know it is something someone said it's like dude what the fuck does it matter if someone said it's bad because it didn't have a fucking particular scream in it come on yeah man that's pretty and again this comes down to well he did it because it exists and it's like oh great that's a standard for content creation now i guess well i mean if it exists right yeah let me saw a comment whinging about the last jedi being a bad movie simply because they didn't use the will help scream sound effect yeah that that really makes the film bad doesn't it wait you understand this video is you whinging right that's what this video is it's you whinging as previously right yes i'm yeah i'm using whinging in the same way that he used it yeah i mean you could ask for clarification from rags if he wants to define what he means by whinging but uh or we could just take whatever you're gonna take with it let's see where he goes ex gets annoyed and asks why he's talking about such statements what why are you giving these stupid idiotic things attention in time we've had this discussion before he's talking about them because they're mildly interesting points at exempt mildly interesting points mildly interesting points really is not even i hate everything could explain why they were just it's just stupid yeah man this is one of those things where it's kind of like well it's this is uh i'm drawn to a parallel between this and when people defend leia doing her little spacewalk yeah people said oh she trained in the movies between and then ryan johnson said no she didn't it was like you're you're trying to defend something but like the author of the material is saying no well um he's not he's we can't say this wrong mildly interesting sure tiaro maybe you find it mildly interesting maybe i hate everything does but do you understand how much of a crap defense that is it's mildly interesting yeah okay this is and that there wasn't a willhelm scream mildly interesting like man that is a oh that yeah it's just a low bar for for uh of all the comments you could have covered you went with that one because it was mildly interesting sure whatever as previously rags gets annoyed and asks why he's talking about such statements what why are you giving these stupid idiotic things attention in time we've had this discussion before he's talking about them because they're mildly interesting points that exemplify the exaggerated reaction he then in turn gets angry about why yeah um i could take any cherry picked set of points to prove any narrative about the last jedi i could pick all the ones that are overly in love with it and say this is mildly interesting if you consider my point is that it's there's too much love for the last jedi look at all these comments and i have you know i loved it because it didn't have the willhelm scream in it and then i go see how ridiculous this is people are loving the film because it didn't have a particular scream and i'm just as fucking devoid of content as as i hit everything was the one point you try to make you had some crazy person say they love a film for the stupid reason yeah i'm questioning like why this of all things you know it's like this video is x you know long so i'm wondering you you had the option to talk about anything you wanted and you chose that like okay yeah well like is this so hard to just let that go as like a yeah i had everything probably could have picked up a more substantial comment like yeah that's basically what i'm saying yeah well we have to argue it because just like everything you said is just too mean no my answer is because it exists i criticize it because it exists and if that's a good enough reason for i hate everything then that should serve as a perfectly good reason for me criticisms how come you have not yet to the stupid insipid vacuous empty pointless completely and we've already spoken about that too another very special moment occurs which has confused me to this day i g's comments about people complaining about science in a star wars movie and this is followed by rags stating that he doesn't understand why quote you think i assume you being i he things need explanations to be sensical even paying attention to this franchise at all those are different movies yeah also that does follow so um lightsabers they don't need an explanation to be sensical that's how they work they exist as long as they operate consistently yeah so if someone slices it in half and it still works we've been shown several times that that'll prevent a lightsaber from working so we'll be like hey if a lightsaber can no longer cut through somebody i just hit some like a bat we'd be like uh hey that that doesn't make sense yeah like when someone like um if a lightsaber operate a lightsaber operates by rules it blocks blaster bolts and it stops other lightsaber blades but it cuts through basically everything else so if you get if you try if like if two lightsabers swung at each other and they went through each other we'd be we'd have questions yeah it doesn't have to line up with science in the first place we don't know the science behind it it's all basically gobbledygook it's science blah blah like hyperdrive we went over it earlier the internal internal consistency yes it's about internal consistency it's not hard apparently to this day tiaro hasn't understood what you were saying there so hopefully that explains it if he's uh listening to this yeah internal consistency by lack of science star wars while the absolutely retarded design of the bombers at the beginning of the last Jedi is not a particularly good example for gravity i don't understand why you think maul's lightsaber still works after it's cut in half you're all fake fans get the fuck out it was it was further to one side that's how it's justified it was yeah it was huge though it was really long it was like four times the size of a normal one and it makes sense because there is no science in star wars but space wizards god man for kids taking so seriously things have to have explanations in order for them to be considered sensical but then saying that it's a fact criticism why people should be concerned it is by no means a poor criticism for people to ask themselves why very basic ten i kind of want to find out what that was yeah all right we can uh scroll it back it's not a particularly good example for gravity i don't understand why you think things have to have explanations in order for them to be considered sensical but then saying that it's a fact criticism why people should be concerned it is by no means a that was a fucking mess of flashy shit on the screen i'm not even sure how much it was relevant no i i didn't i didn't see it i don't think we're supposed to read it there's no way if it comes off that quick i didn't know i didn't see it at all um i'm more curious about what you're about to say because i'm assuming he's gonna rip into it criticism why people should be concerned it is by no means a poor criticism for people to ask themselves why very basic tenets of something do not apply to the rules of reality or the rules that have been pre-established in a universe i then assume retrospectively that he means you as general but the way he delivered it and the tone in he was refuting something and then he realized he was making the wrong points either way it was how's that for reading into something oh yeah that's uh so to clarify for the right opinion again uh rags is saying that it's absolutely a criticism if uh it it betrays the previously established part of itself that's kind of what he was getting out from from what i heard but that's that's just me i'm basically just asking for consistency in something you don't have to you don't have to show how it works just show that as a consistent function exactly very very simple to understand i think that you could have given rags that with just a little bit of benefit of the doubt to be like oh he's probably referring to consistency internally because there's a very common thing that's discussed but hey rather than using now whether the criticism is valid or not i think it's fair to say that a few gravity related instance on only big deal we're not saying the whole concept of uh it depends on what it has happened which in this case it managed to destroy the dreadnought and save the fleet yeah just pretty important dude but hey there we are gravity was completely done wrong it was clearly done on schemas that we're all familiar with he was addressing someone who took issue with a specific scenario to do with gravity i don't know about you but i can see why that is perceived as nitpicking right is it why don't you explain why you just say that it is because some people could call that nitpicking it's not nitpicking because it saves the fucking day okay yeah man it's like that's like a huge thing that happens people are so cool you rag regularly happen because of a thing you know i i need to find what nitpicking is for us tiara tags admits in this video that he recorded this whole thing live without a script and the way he did it basically was he would play a brief clip of i hate everything saying something and then he would respond to it live this is an inherently flawed system that's what's coming from you you know people tell me they love that they i can't believe quintin is criticizing your methods that's insane that is pretty crazy but man like people really like it and they say it sounds really sincere and oh i just i don't know man like rags can you next time straw man the shit out of your opponents uh don't show any context and uh call them warriors for a holy war just just do that that'll that's the way to do it this what he's doing is teaching you because what you do where you show the context and then you respond as statements go past like we're doing now that's shit don't do that fuck that here's the thing i'm not going to say quintin's useless because everybody can profit from a bad example i agree with that rags will play one sentence of i hate everything's video at a time sometimes less and then he will respond to that clip for minutes on end and it gets to the point that he has failed so heavily to connect one sentence to the next that he stops even fully understanding what alex that's okay even if that were true that is better straw man that is better than removing context deliberately yeah i mean here's something i have really i would love an example because i think they've tried to give examples but they don't really work but i if i have a a complete thought and i remember a complete thought doesn't have to be a whole sentence but if i have a complete thought then i will interject and give my opinion yeah and and we do try on this and i'm sure rags will do it every once in a while maybe when he's responding to stuff uh if there's a chance that we we have a statement then we're like maybe something before after it could support or or clarify it we give it a shot and we'll always find out because we're watching a whole video on this stream we've done that a lot yeah we always we always rewind to give the benefit and the thing is i give the whole video so then i would hear the rest of the clip and i just i just love it man that the fucking audacity to criticize you like this when he removes context deliberately it's crazy though because if what he was saying was true then i would stop my recording and then just resume his video and then the video would say the thing and i'd be like oh i clear that up yeah oh quinton quinton quinton quinton you make it very hard to like you oh this is bad quinton you should feel bad for it is trying to say in the first place system it's not a system obviously no no no no no quinton it's not a system please don't call it that it is not a system i promise you it's not a tumor wait wait wait it's not a oh it says 48 minutes 30 seconds 48 minutes and 30 seconds yeah that's what it says but it's like loading or spooling that's okay i'll just get us back 48 that'll do standing what alex is trying to say in the first place through this system he obviously has no capacity to understand rhetorical statements for motherfucker don't even bother i can't take you seriously with with how you've responded to our content the idea that you're criticizing someone else for their methods you the video is not loading for me ass uh do you want to try rejoining see if fx is it yeah let me try that he's so full of shit he is full of shit man is it a 48 here we go 48 yeah 48 20 standing what alex is trying to say in the first place through this system he obviously has no capacity to understand rhetorical statements for instance i do a lot of the discussion i've built a youtube channel of it besides you and t ro a fucking rhetorical statements from rags you haven't even they've done worse they've just made shit up when when rags is like imagine saying that shit to mark hamill and it was just like uh excuse me i had everything is not saying this to mark hamill and it's like yeah okay that's not what was happening i'm not saying he is i'm asking what what what if you did like it's supposed to it's supposed to reveal something about what i had everything he's saying but obviously that flew right over everyone's heads and this fucking analysis questions around this movie are just straight up malicious and overly simplified you have two choices you can either really love it or think it's the worst film ever made or you can be like t ro and think it was okay yeah like t ro even when he was at this part in the video he said he disagreed like obviously i he's wrong are they are those the only two options there's there's no middle ground really whenever alex will do something like apply i love it so he's accused you of of of taking a hypothetical and taking it seriously even though quint uh t ro has said in this video that he disagrees with alex's statement and quintin doesn't show where i've messed up he's just like he he just plays me saying that all you know obviously there's not you know there's the there's middle ground not the two extremes i don't understand what what is someone supposed to take away from this because i haven't been like refuted what i take away from him as uh it's not okay when you say it but it's okay when quintin's friend t ro says it i guess because we both basically both agree that i actually was wrong when he said that and even if he was responding to how he seems that way well then my statement still holds up because i'm asking hey quintin give this advice to t ro because he didn't catch it either obviously there you go rags you and t ro get to learn a lesson today don't take i hate everything seriously that that was your mistake unless you need to then do unless you should unless you should only do it when you need to last Jedi to the original trilogy rags his response is to defend the original trilogy and then to act as if alex is saying that because the original trilogy is bad the last Jedi is better in comparison and it gets to the what does that even mean that the last Jedi that the original trilogy was bad so the last Jedi is better in comparison i to unpack whatever nonsense that was i believe that um i hate everything eventually takes a shot of the ot and then you're probably gonna make the claim that he i hate everything he's saying that because the ot is bad that means that the new woods can't be considered bad because they're bad too and that that would be what about is i don't know if that's what he's going for so it might be because maybe he's referring to i was pointing out the the rotten tomato scores and saying that the rotten time well maybe he maybe because i pointed out the tomato score for the old ones was higher that means i'm defending them just give it another shot his response is to wait let's go back a little bit because yeah i'm not really following and again they're doing see you see how they they criticize your method right of showing the person saying the thing and then responding and yet they keep telling us what you said so we can't actually hear it yeah and we already know they took me out of context so many times it's like why would we trust you you're gonna have to show the clips yeah that's why it's it's that's the thing i love my content because well the it's not a system it's just the style but you know when one of us is talking and it's in it's just it's linear it's an order i don't skip back and forth and back and forth unless on very rare occasions and it's very on it's put there very prominently you are going out of your way to avoid the many many many legitimate criticisms of the last Jedi you can see that rags and itchy are not on the same wavelength of what they want to discuss they're a legitimate criticism of the last Jedi there are nitpicks and the only thing that itchy is trying to assert is that the nitpicking seems to be more common in this movie than the previous one and rags is asserting that's not the case yeah man i i don't know he hasn't even no one has defined nitpicking yet i know if you disagree with that then that is fine but you are not entitled to a formal debate there it is again i never said i was entitled to a formal debate and it's retarded that you'd say that yeah and we offered it to quinton and he fucked off so we were not entitled to debate him he's just welcome to speak to us of all the intricate points because his video would go on just as long as yours and that's not what he or the fan base enjoys i jesus i don't give a shit what the fan base enjoys plus my fan base enjoys long videos actually and i think malo you get plenty of comments from people who enjoy the long content they say i listen to it at work i listen to it while i'm driving well i mean i know that i had everything i can drive to and from work and have something to listen to i had everything got a backlash for his video so it clearly wasn't a resounding success for his fan base not that i give a shit because that was never rags his point it's like rat you shouldn't have made this video uh because that your audience won't like it that's not ever something rags fucking said yeah that's weird that's that's very strange he then says nitpicking a film to the point where you're purposefully ignoring the context and intent isn't helpful to anyone racton orders him to tell that to cinema sins you just brought their name up so it seemed appropriate as if cinema sins would take offense but cinema sins do it for a joke they continuously have to it depends on who you talk to and what they say what time you talk to yeah man and it depends on what it is and cinema sins because some of their criticism is legitimate and good and that's the thing next one will be bad i had everything is going to uh say that cinema sins has contributed to the negativity of like uh cinema culture or whatever you want to call it and like tiaro's saying here uh excuse me they're a joke they're not supposed to be taken seriously it's like yeah well i had everything take some seriously i would say that cinema sins helped because it gets people to at least in some way think more critically yeah like deconstructing a film it may have opened people up to that idea how effective you are at it and you need information obviously it gets complicated but um yeah yeah i don't even just just tells yeah it stands the fact that i hate everything said that combined with the fact that i had everything blame cinema sins and himself towards the end of the video for negativity surrounding cinema which very strange really sad to hear from i had everything considering a lot of his criticism was very productive and or constructive in terms of pointing out how bad something could be structurally but hey someone says just uh forget the fan base destroy it if you have to tell their fans not take their videos seriously because they are by nature not a legitimate analysis no no no hold up hold up wow who wow by nature they're not legitimate analysis that's interesting wow that's ooh cinema sins um you're you're hoof um who made you the fucking arbiter of what is and isn't legitimate criticism and that's the thing people tell us that we do i know that damn that was a very telling statement just to declare that uh cinema sins is not what was the word exactly let me just let's let's just get it all against but cinema sins do it for a joke they continuously have to tell their own fans not take their video seriously because they are by nature not a legitimate analysis yeah that's not so you there's quotes from jeremy saying as uh cinema sins it's funny that he's in the chat for this uh they've said themselves that their outset was to criticize the current state of hollywood that it's pumping out too much shit and that they want to point out where they've failed miserably and they're not even considering the fact that they have many many influences in people saying like this with they it's not that they can't make a good video all right yeah i'm putting it out there the cinema sins can make a good video it's possible also i would say that it's not actually up to cinema sins to determine whether or not their own contents legitimate i don't even i mean that's such a that's such a can of worms to open up you know yeah what do you mean legitimate exactly that that's one of those thing that's one of those words people use that kind of needs a definition what do you mean legitimate criticism what is legitimate criticism because they can say that they're not legitimate criticism but they could be depending on how you want to say legitimate i'm curious very much about that statement but it's just going to be glossed over the channel that sees out the inclusion of people eating apples is um someone could say that what i'm about to say isn't a joke but they say something and if somebody laughs at it well he's about to point out that eating an apple is a sin um we already know that cinema sins sins for the lack of lap dances or for extended credit sequences at the beginning from producers and and stuff so yes we know that they make jokes i've made jokes in my videos it it's a thing you can do while actually providing criticism comedians are often some people who do that some of the legitimate some of his criticisms are good though and they hold up he makes some good criticisms in his videos yeah they're not all jokes yeah absolutely exist probably he's against the film they're not acting this way with serious intent rags then try to matter what their intent is it literally doesn't matter what their intent is yeah the criticism what they say may very well be a valid criticism just it would be like me saying the sun is a star you'd be like see that's not a valid claim because he's joking yeah it's like yes it is a valid claim what are you talking about yeah it's like that's the thing you don't get to determine whether or not you're legitimate i mean that's that's kind of circular reasoning is it legitimate well it's it's legitimate because i said it's legitimate how do we know it's legitimate because i said it's legitimate yeah conforming to the law or to rules so what are the rules of criticism like well um do we got to go down this rabbit hole that's my question it's like he didn't even bother but yeah i hope i can if i were to i want to do this in the future i need to catch myself like when i say things like if i was to say legitimate criticism i need to like define that what does that mean i need to catch myself stop myself and say well when i say legitimate criticism i mean you know exploit to use the fact that i actually notes that he goes into arguably too much detail of some sort of equivalent the description of your destiny to review reads ihe goes into arguably too much detail on bungee's new entry in the hugely popular destiny franchise you made a 49 minute video review of destiny to where you admit to being nitpicky about it and countless countless hours must have been spent editing compiling all of that footage putting your thoughts together and making those into a movie but if you want to get me to video for his about wait sorry i didn't i think it's one of those yeah go on well i i need to use the loo anyway but he's like guess where this goes i bet a lot of people can understand what my point is before i even make it they could follow it to the end of the road you know if he's saying nitpicks are bad nitpicks are bad when it's applied to the last jedi you know and then sure enough his video on destiny to where he admits he goes into too much detail well i mean is it was a bad then yeah i mean is it bad to do it to destiny to oh by the way rags i have no idea where we are in your video you know like 51 21 no no no your video as in oh i don't either i have no clue how much we've seen continuity what is it like i was gonna say it's such an interesting thing to say but the continuity of this youtube video is confusing as hell um that's interesting yeah capy gamer hello again um he said he i really hate how he's jumping from part to part without any chronological order is that yeah that's true i have no idea where we are and the thing is i haven't watched my video basically since somebody uh but um i have no idea where we are in my video that's right i haven't even really thought about it because we're kind of following this train wreck to the end of the rails but yeah man where are we in my video that's very strange but um i uh i need to use the loo i gotta be that's right i will read some super chats mark hamill is an absolute treasure to humanity this is true i feel like a channel called the right opinion carries the smugness of a h bomb a guy video just join the stream what is he like uh he's he's not too smug is a couple of little bits like the one where he said that there's um totally malicious content out there when rags are talking about videos and then you showed a bunch of comments then he was like i'm pretty sure that proves it or something like that and it's like no it doesn't this is two very different things but okay so that there's a bit of that and it's like it's almost like i'm saying you shouldn't be super confident when you're wrong because that equals smug but it's like you know there's a lot of complicated stuff about how it comes down to being smug i've been smug it's not like you automatically become a h bomb the guy if he's smug he's like smug lord um hey man i like your content great rags pointed it out no well good good um i took an art i took arthas gcse and failed because i was crap how would they determine that it's terrible if it's all subjective well that's obviously a lie that never happened you sorry i have no thesis statement ah see that's where you've lost no thesis statement means that you've uh you fucked up you and some other people will um will give you your thesis statement if you don't have it they'll provide it to you like quinton he'll make a video just for you his neck beard is where the thesis statements are lol been to a bar for two hours still not at half of the video yeah and we're at six hours and four minutes um i'm thinking we're probably gonna call it soon i can just only well yeah i was gonna say do you think we should split this into two um you know we could probably do that yeah that would be fine with me because obviously it'll be me and you again because i mean you have pretty good schedule so we could probably set this up relatively quickly yeah because i just i need to do something else man oh yeah this has been six hours do you want to just this is the rough we will carry on from 51 minutes when we come back to it how's that sound um let me see we're at 51 21 right now right someone said um is rags dying no i drink a shit ton of water i drink a lot of water like i've gone through like four bottles five bottles since we've been here because the water helps one adjust to high climates and it's good for you because i'm about to do a rim to rim hike um at the Grand Canyon later this month yeah i genuinely feel like it's six hours is a lot me and Bert rags both need to do human things in order to function i'm just gonna fucking walk around and play a video game or some shit uh but what we'll we'll we'll definitely get it sorted out um as a closing thing of course wolf left wolf's not been in a great place lately he's gonna be released in a video going over it and after that he's gonna be absent from efab for a bit now once we've done this quintan thing and possibly had t ro on for whatever might happen with that uh we've got a few guests lining up and i've listened to you guys and i'm going to be contacting people to make sure we try and get them on uh pray and so yeah lots to come efab is triumph and every frame of fap that's that's the official name uh i hope you guys have had fun is there anything you want to want to say rags well hunter says uh hey rags and mauler the last jedi debacle caused me to unsubscribe to most of the analysis channels that i liked if you could crank out more videos to compensate it would be nice well you're about to get a shit ton from mauler eventually because his last jedi or his the force awakens thing is oh yeah that is i'm i'm gonna put an update on my patreon tonight because i didn't do it this morning i meant to do this morning but i'll give you guys a big update on how the project's going there is progress lots of progress now i'll start making videos very soon too uh almost all the new artwork and everything will be done for that really shortly yeah i was gonna say not you worry that's a link to rags his channel in the chat now i don't know did you want to do some uh something specific with this video now or did you want to i think i can wait till the second part's out let's wait till the second part yeah that makes sense uh so yeah that's that's pretty much it um you can find this will be up in about probably like three or four hours depending on how long it takes to process on my second channel which is mula you guys can go ahead and jump on that and uh you'll you'll get it when it's out it'll be public on there instead of unlisted here again chat has died for me now which is really convenient when i'm trying to end so i can see if people are asking anything but whatever can't do anything about that thank you all for watching hope you had fun if i had fun this was awful give it another um people people were like man he really got you and i'm like oh yeah maybe it maybe that's in the second half people site this video is destroying me and you which no wonder they think it destroyed us it doesn't fucking have quotes from us in it just to invent visions of us yeah man um but yeah uh yeah rags hydrate for that rim to rim job soon there you go that was the last super chat thank you again guys for the donations very generous and we will see you next time for the remainder of this epic um goodbye bye bye