Can I ask everyone to please sit down and we can start the meeting? Okay, I hate to end all the great conversation, but we have a meeting, we have to be on time. So I would like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of May 7, 2018 and begin with the Pledge of Allegiance and why don't we have Deputy Police Chief Paul Edwards lead us in that. To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. You have a daughter who knows that. Good for you Gretchen, right? Yeah. Nice job. Item two is instructions on how to exit the building in case of emergency. So Tom? Yes, well, we're in good hands at the present time. Fire and police here, but in the event of an emergency anytime during the meeting tonight, we asked that everybody exit through these side doors and meet out in the side parking lot. And I'd like to ask Tom Chittenden to assist me in checking restrooms in case anyone is on that wing tonight during an emergency, but we'll hope we don't have one. Like I said, we're in good hands. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Item three is very exciting for the council. It's the possible appointment of a counselor to serve in the position occupied by the late Councillor Pat Noak through the 2019 annual meeting of the voters. And I am really pleased to let people know that a very, very good friend of mine, David Kaufman, a former state legislator, David and I commuted together every day to Montpelier for eight years. We sat together in the state house. We often had lunch together. So he is one of my husbands and my best friends. And I was really happy when he agreed to serve because he comes with a lot of public service experience. I think in many ways he's an appropriate replacement for Pat in terms of his connections to the business community, his long time service to the city of South Burlington. And I think the positions he has on certain things, but he's his own person for sure. But I think Pat would be pleased. So I would ask you to come forward and get sworn in by Donna Kindle. Oh, I'm sorry. We have to have an official vote. So I guess we need to, for the appointment, I would entertain a motion and. I would enthusiastically move to appoint one David Kaufman to the finish out this seat until the March of 2019. Okay. Any further discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Thank you. So David, now you can come forward. I guess I'm stuck, huh? Yeah, you are. Okay, we have actually two votes. Okay. Raise your hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm you will be true and faithful to the state of Vermont and the city of South Burlington. And that you will not directly or indirectly do any act or think interest in the Constitution or government their own. I do or I will vote. Okay. Do you, David Kaufman, solemnly swear that you faithfully execute the office of city council for the remainder of the two-year term? For the city of South Burlington and the state of Vermont, will there be equal right and justice to all persons, the judge of your judgment and ability, point to us to help you God and to pay some value to the purchase? I will. Okay. Thanks. There you go. Make your official decision to sign your little votes here. Okay. Here you go. There we go. Well, right, when you hit your little name tag. Oh, thanks. So we have a lot of fun stuff tonight. We had a lovely reception honoring our soon to be retired Deputy Police Chief Paul Edwards for his 27 years of service to the city. So our next item is consider and possibly approve a council resolution to honor that and I would like to read that and then ask you to come forward. So this is resolution 2018 relating to Deputy Chief of Police Paul A. Edwards. Whereas the members of the South Burlington City Council are celebrating service to the citizens of South Burlington by Deputy Chief Paul A. Edwards. And whereas the community has benefited from Deputy Chief Edwards caring professionalism and leadership. And whereas Deputy Chief Edwards served the people of South Burlington for more than 27 years as a police officer. And whereas during his time as a South Burlington police officer, he served in the roles of patrol officer, detective, corporal, patrol sergeant, detective sergeant, support services, lieutenant and Deputy Chief. And whereas Deputy Chief Edwards served as a law enforcement instructor in multiple subject areas. And whereas he served as a field training officer helping to shape young officers into mature police professionals. And whereas Chief Edwards has worked tirelessly to fight for and support victims of crime. And whereas Deputy Chief Edwards served as the executive officer of the second largest municipal police agency in Vermont for more than six years. And whereas he has simultaneously served our country as a command sergeant major of the 3rd Battalion, 172nd Mountain Infantry of the U.S. Army National Guard since 1981. And whereas Deputy Chief Edwards exemplifies those qualities of importance in a police officer and a law enforcement executive to include integrity, professionalism, loyalty, fairness and respect. And now therefore be it resolved that on behalf of the residents of the City of South Burlington, the City Council does hereby recognize and extend its deepest appreciation for Deputy Chief Edwards service and dedication to the residents of the City of South Burlington. Whose lives are the better for his years of service and that Deputy Chief Edwards exemplified the commitment to justice and fairness that leads to making a true difference in a community. And let it further be resolved that we the members of the City Council recognize and honor our Deputy Chief of Police Paul Edwards for his devotion to duty, compassion for victims, mentorship to other officers. And commitment to community. And let it further resolved that a signed copy of this resolution shall be presented to Deputy Chief Paul Edwards. And that this resolution will be inserted in its entirety in the minutes of the South Burlington City Council meeting dated May 7th, 2018. So I would entertain a motion for approval of this resolution. So moved. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you. Would you come forward and why don't we go to the front and we can present, you know, photo ops and everything. I need this one. Right here would be good. So on behalf of the Council please accept this and our thanks for many, many years of wonderful service and good luck in the future. Would you allow me to sign something? You certainly. Oh, absolutely. Thank you for taking this opportunity to recognize my service to the city. Means a great deal to my family and me to know weekends, holidays, family events, games, milestones that there was a reason for that. It was valued to the greater good for the city of South Burlington. As most policemen do, I joined to make a difference to the community. I wanted to help. From the outside, it's always a good guys versus bad guys. The law is the law, right and wrong type of situation. But in very short order, you realize being a police officer means operating in a world of gray. It takes a large amount of discretion and creative problem solving to get the best outcomes for victims. And my final assignment as deputy chief was the officer who ran the day to day operations of the department. Issuing all orders, directives, budget controls and the one who delivers the discipline. The deputy chief rarely gets to deliver good news.  Police officers are drawn directly from the community that we serve. I've been a resident here for over 30 years. I have a child and see him just about every one of the school systems here in town. The police are not supposed to be an occupying force or a giant faceless corporation. But instead a community based small organization that falls under local control and is manned by local citizens. In other words, police officers are just people and people are police officers. The police department is a solid unit dedicated and resourceful people that have the greater good of public safety and societal harmony foremost in their minds. Regardless of what political party is in charge and what current public sentiment prevails, the police are an apolitical civil authority that continues to perform and make strides and successes because of people like you. You always threw your support behind us. You always gave us your trust and you always believed in us and you were behind all of our efforts. That means a great deal to always be able to count on that support. In my opinion, our employees at the police department are the city spirit and greatest resource who are proud of the work they do for and the part they play in the community. Our policing style is an enhanced community policing approach. This includes the involvement of patrol officers in community policing and problem solving. Such as getting to know the people and live in the patrol area and attend our schools, but also going to community meetings and listening to neighborhood concerns, developing plans to address community crime and disorder problems, and leveraging local government services to improve the quality of life in our city. Our employees are dedicated and loyal. We emphasize initiative, flexibility, participatory management, teamwork, and caring in our organization. The approach that self-burlington police holds is that we are community partners expected to provide the highest possible function to the community that we serve. Our officers and employees want to be a significant part of the solution and never be a part of the problem. I have been proud to be a part of this great group of professional and well-trained officers for the past 28 years. My experience here in this community was unlike any other public servant because of this community support and the belief and trust in us. These facts combined with the overriding principle that we work for the victims of crime and that we must be relentless in our pursuit of the best possible outcome to serve justice has made this an extremely fulfilling career for me and why I'll always be proud of. I'm excited to start my next chapter of my life as a retiree, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that the things I have enjoyed most here and I will miss most is the people of self-burlington and the family of my police department. I hope you'll remember me as someone who did try to make a difference and did help the self-burlington community. Again, thank you for permitting me to remain in this job so long. I'm truly enjoyed being here. As you can tell, I'll miss it more than you'll know. Thank you. Thank you very much. Obviously, your comments and your emotion and the number of people here who came to celebrate reflect your commitment and how much we will lose. And thank you so much for all that you've done. Item six, possible executive sessions? We need one, right? Related to confidential attorney-client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to city council, the appointment, employment, or evaluation of a public officer or employee, labor relations agreements with employees. I move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of the negotiations of labor relations with employees as well as confidential attorney-client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to this body would clearly place the public body of persons involved in a substantial disadvantage. All in favor? Signify by saying aye. Aye. So I now move that the board enter into executive session for the purpose of discussing labor relations agreements with employees, confidential attorney-client communications, and the appointment or employment or evaluation of a public officer or employee. We'd like to invite Tom Hubbard and Andrew Bulldick into session with the council. Second. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? Signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, so we will be gone about 40 minutes, we think. Yes. So please finish up all the goodies, say your goodbyes, and we'll see you shortly. Yeah, you can't take notes, so you can leave your stuff. City council meeting of Monday, May 7th, 2018, and we'll continue with item seven, which is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. Are there any? Yes. Okay. David DeLore. David DeLore, South Burlington, Delaware Street, resident. I bring to the council this evening for your consideration a couple of thoughts with respect to the streets across the street from the airport, meaning LaDue, Patrick, Elizabeth, Maryland, and Delaware. If at all possible, if it's fundable, if it's something that can be done through your public works department, whatever, I would suggest, I would like to suggest, signage that would indicate on all those streets at the entry points, residents only, to be allowed in there, or some wording to that effect. Similar to what they use in downtown Burlington. Sure. On their streets. If that's not a viable alternative, possibly some decorative barriers with the permission of the landowners to be strategically placed to eliminate and dissuade the transient cars and vehicles that are constantly parked in their day and night who are going to do their business at the airport and sometimes some of those vehicles are not doing business at the airport. They're doing break in business of the residences. So I just want to pass that along. Okay. And if that's not a viable alternative, I would ask the city council to think about something in the future with respect to the police organization that would mount up on the telephone poles facing down the streets. Night vision, high intensity surveillance cameras connected right into the police department to allow our police organization to be able to ID the vehicles and take appropriate action. Thank you very much. Can I ask you, we did bring this up that the Uber and the Lyft group with the airport and they do have a designated area with signage. And but and that's been in place. Maybe a couple months. Pardon me. At least a month. So I'm curious if in the last month if you've seen any reduction in Uber and Lyft vehicles parking on those streets. I have seen a reduction in the so-called professional cab drivers reducing especially specifically green cab, quick cab. But I've seen an increase in semis coming on my street on Delaware Street. And yes, and Greyhound buses and they've been ripping up the dirt pretty good. So I was getting ready to submit a bill to the various organizations to say. Okay. I don't know why they think that they can make the corner once they've come on Delaware Street. Once they do, they're kind of committed to it. The car carrier that delivers vehicles to the airport every every other week. Oh, yeah. So and the vehicle traffic on Delaware and specifically the corner off Maryland. If I was to, I could set up a video camera to give you a video proof of how frequent it is. But it's actually the traffic has actually increased. Everybody thinks that the cut is actually quicker than just going to the end of White Street and going around. It's not, but they think it's quicker. But then you got all the people that are parking the Daisy chain and line up on through Maryland there. And I'm talking escalades. I'm talking Cadillacs. I'm talking Mercedes. I'm not talking your low end vehicles. I'm talking your, your special people. And I would like to go out and give them some special hugs. But I have not. I have not. And those high end, are they cabs? No, they're waiting. They're waiting to pick up their friends and relatives. Oh, I see. Yeah. And then it could be. They could be Uber or Lyft. Oh, okay. Well, I would know that because I'm not looking for stickers. But I'm just seeing vehicles. I'm just seeing vehicles. Yeah. But a lot of volvos, BMWs, people that aren't from the area. I never thought to park there. They definitely don't live on Maryland. They definitely don't live on the do and Elizabeth Patrick. And I know they don't live on my street. So I'm just thinking of other alternatives to dissuade people from constantly parking there and leaving great big special high energy drink cans. I was 24 ounces big things. Yes. And because I talked to the guys who mow all the lawns and they said the same thing. They're picking up trash every day on several of the properties that they own. So it's, it's their stuff. But. Okay. It's. I wasn't aware of it. Yeah. It's picked up with the warmer weather and they know enough to stay off my property because I've taken some other steps that dissuade vehicles from staying there too long. Can I ask you if you have shared this with. I shared it with the police chief this evening. But that that was the first time. Yeah. This evening. Yeah. How about the airport. That has fallen on deaf ears to the point of several engagements with that young individual because he is younger than me. The director has says, well, no, you need to, you need to bring that up with South Brawlington because that's that's a police issue. And I said, no, it's your properties. You need to have these people stay away. So it's, it's a little, it's a little tussle. I understand. And I get it. But it's like, you know, after the second attempted break into my residence, I says, okay, I'm going to take more aggressive measures. I now have cameras. The next version I'm going to do is going to be live YouTube feed right to YouTube. People want to come break into my house. They're going on YouTube. Okay. I'm going to publish it. Okay. I'm getting sick and tired of it. Well, it sounds like it's a real issue. I'm armoring up my doors too. So I have my doors replaced. They're going to be armored, armored. He's going to be armored, steel, industrial, safe type doors. You want to kick in my door again? You're going to have a broken foot. So I'm really getting fed up with it. I'd like to hope that we can find a better resolution than making your home. Maybe some colorful blocks or something. Maybe some pop-ups.  I'm just giving you some creative thoughts. I just like, yes. I appreciate it. I certainly like the signage idea. Thank you. As a start. Thank you very much, David. Any other, there was another hand, I think. Oh, Donna. Hello. Donna Kinville, City Clerk. I was presented today with a petition for the dog park at JC Park. It's a little bit different petition. There are two versions of the petition. One is where it kind of does a little descriptor. And there is a second one that just has very simply a petition to reopen JC Park as its header. So I have gone through the names on the petitions. There are 250 signatures. However, only about 127 actually listed their address of South Burlington. And of those 127, 70 were actually registered on our checklists as voters. So I am here to present this petition to the council. And this is a copy. I have the original in my office. So feel free to do it as you want. Okay. Thank you. We'll accept it. That's what we need. Can I ask you, in order for a petition like this to be kind of legal, do they have to be on our voter checklist or just a resident? They have to be on the voter. Okay. So it's really 70 signatures that are bona fide. Correct. Okay. All right. Thank you. Because otherwise it would be no way to verify that they're actually resident. Right. They could put anybody's name down. Okay. They wanted to. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions or comments from the public? All right. Moving on to number eight announcements in the city manager's report. Who would like David? No. Sure. These are meetings and things that you've been to in the, but if you don't have anything, that's fine. Tim, do you want to try? Okay. Tom. I don't know what I've attended, but two things come to mind. So I have been in conversations about a police, a firefighters and EMT banquet dinner of appreciation. I'm not ready yet with all the details to come to the council. And I, I'm not going to come asking necessarily for your, your, your permission or no money. But we do hope that if the council endorses this action, then you would all attend and that you would come. And I'm also looking for support too. So I should be at the next meeting with some details. And I'm hoping it'll be this fall, October 11th. And I'm also looking for community members to get involved, that people are interested in doing so. The other thing I've, because of the tragedy that's been in the news of one of our residents, some residents have reached out to me about the issue of domestic violence. And they would love to see, and what keeps coming to mind is the community forums that we had during the rebel issues. And we had another one two weeks ago or something. If I don't know how to, how to elevate that, but I was going to reach out to Lisa Bedinger or maybe Tom Hubbard just to see what, what their thoughts are on how we could have some rich community conversations about domestic violence. Great. Thank you. Yeah. I went to the community conversation that Lisa had organized, Lisa Bedinger. I also met with Chapin Caner, who is the president of the board of the Green Mountain, Green Mountain Transit, and that was a good conversation. I'll follow up with him talking about new routes. And I also met with some members of the dog park committee about a week ago, I think.  I'm in semester mode. So I think that I did. Okay. Great. So I attended the CCRPC meeting for horrible housing last Monday. Oh, great. At the O'Brien Community Center. So very interesting. A lot of people, a lot of residents went from almost every town and county. They each had a moment to speak about what their town or city is doing. Some have, the horrible housing trusts most don't. A lot of activities, a lot of opinions. It was very informative. Really glad I went. Pizza from Free Brothers was extraordinary. Really. And then I just want to shout out that I returned today from New York City after doing the five borough ride. It's a 40 mile bike ride through all five boroughs. It was pretty intense. It wasn't a race. It was just a ride. 30,000 people on the roads. All the roads were closed. No cars. So if you've never ridden a bike on the FDR, or the QVB, or the Verrazano's Narrows Bridge, I urge you to go ahead and go down there and do it next year in May. Okay. Very nice. Okay. David, do you have anything? No. Nothing that would be relevant. Okay. You've been busy. I know. Okay. I went to the community conversation. We also, I met with Mayor Weinberger and Seth Leonard, Mayor Leonard in sort of a, kind of a monthly meeting. That was last Friday. And I forwarded to everyone. We finally have a memorandum of understanding, a draft from the city of Burlington. And I shared that with you. And I think at some point in another council meeting, we should probably discuss what they came up with. It, I have to admit, I have, it's three pages and I did not, it was kind of handed to us. And we really didn't have, neither of us had time to kind of get back in any firm sense of what we thought about it. I think it's less than what we had hoped, but it's a start. And I, we all agreed that it would be a, a dialogue and, and the anticipation of some amendments or changes from both the cities. The other piece that the mayor is working on, albeit kind of slowly, but it is moving forward, is a look internally with, about the, the airport governance. And so he's working with the airport and his task, the airport and the city attorneys, I guess also one of them, or at least one of them, to come up with a policy of recommendation, I guess, for the mayor that he then would take to the city council and share with us. They're looking at their documents. One of the things that they're spending a lot of time on is looking back for the last 100 years of all the money that the city of Burlington has spent and invested in the airport. So they're going back 100 years. And then they'll come up with the timeline that Marot suggested is that he's going to be presented with some of this information in June. They'll have a first internal review and then he's going to approach the council and potentially in the summer we'll get a final report and the expectation is that the three councils or representatives from the free cities in some way would have a conversation about how they're thinking about this the role of the airport and its importance to the city of Burlington and if there's any interest in sharing management. So I suggested that they also include in this their overall annual costs because I had a couple, probably six months ago, to get a figure that was, I can't remember, $380,000 or something of real direct and indirect costs that the city of Burlington is reimbursed by the airport for specific things. They do their police and managing human resources and paychecks and that kind of stuff. And also to include the indirects then Mayor Leonard and I suggested that perhaps it would also be wise in our conversation if we, as three cities want to really talk about what should go forward if each of Wienewski and South Burlington think about the costs they've incurred from the airport as well as the benefits. I mean really thinking about if you can develop any data and I guess I would look to city management about the positive impact of the airport on businesses in our community if you can quantify that some way. We definitely can quantify some of the costs with the property tax reduction and 200 homes raised in those kinds of costs and just to sort of have it lawsuits yeah I mean there's a whole lot of issues that have arise that perhaps we should put together so that when we sit down since their approach has been let's see what this has cost us so if the ownership or the management changes what will Burlington be owed if anything. The school district too in terms of loss of children to the school those numbers have been right I think there's some I mean Seth was talking about you know what's the ridership on the plains from each of our communities as a benefit and sort of the regional investment so I put that out to you as potentially something that we might want to noodle around with so that when we have a conversation it isn't just well Burlington has invested over the last 100 years you know X thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars David. Didn't you say that the airport has reimbursed Burlington didn't you just say that they do now annually I don't know going back 100 years and I'm not sure why they need to go back 100 years but they are from a point probably well yeah and it takes time about our planning and zoning staff time that was my point I would love for us to quantify how much we spent in city dollars and time over the years and all these things so we should well and Moreau thought that that was probably also on the benefit side all the hotel rooms that are used by people that come and go through the airport on an annual basis has to be thousands of hotel rooms and most of the hotels are right here right and that's an economic benefit so I mean I think you need to do the pluses and the minuses it's going to be not easy to quantify the whole thing no but we might be able to get some kind of idea asking the hotels what percentage do you think because now a lot of them you can park there for free so they know that those people coming in and I don't think we need to go back 100 years and we can spend all night on this but those benefits are generated from the use of our collective airspace it's not necessarily from Burlington's ownership of that original business or whatever it was yep okay Helen there isn't the addition deletion and otherwise could we could we discuss the MOU the revisions that came back to draft MOU from the mayor under other business or it wasn't on... well we could we could certainly I mean we're not going to take action on it and yes yes we can bring that up the second thing I'd like us to talk about if possible is the library oh okay have we done that we're not for other business for future I'd like to know a little bit what's coming up with them and then the last thing we talked about were the Kirby Cottages and there is apparently interest by Stu Ireland to move them to Grove Street my and I made it clear I couldn't speak for the council but I encouraged the mayor not to make that decision soon but rather I mean I think South Burlington would like to see those houses stay in South Burlington if they have to be moved let's move them somewhere here but maybe not but he agreed with me to sort of hold it off as long as they can and hopefully until the sound the new sound mapping happens so our next meeting is going to either be mid-July or mid-August with hopefully some of this information so we should talk about the burden and what numbers we can generate for probably will be mid-August but anyway but it continues to be a very I think positive and purposeful meeting a lot slower than Seth and I would like in terms of really getting agreements going forward but at least we're talking and I think that Mr. Deloria's expenses should also be considered I think that this is a result of being in an isolated area without neighbors and I mean he talked a little bit about his investments in home security and I think that's something also for us to include I don't know if I'm speaking well we sent a brainstorm about how you make that sort of financial case but I think and then the last meeting we met Kevin and I met with school commission or school board chair and superintendent and we gave them a proposed elements of agreement in terms of the land swap and as we all know they continue to cogitate on this I think they're really concerned with having something specific a plan in place for their future visioning before they give up any land and that's going to take several years so I don't think we necessarily will get a decision to swap the land but they could there just were still there continues to be a lot of concerns around safety the giving up that land in case they need to build out central school and because they may have to close Chamberlain I think that's kind of been part of their concern so they've got a lot of moving parts so it's really difficult for them to make what I think the five of us would agree is a pretty simple decision swap the land for quite a few benefits and we articulated the benefits so I don't know if all of you've got this sheet I'll make sure you do but it kind of lays out this is what we'll do for you and it's creating the permanent entrance improving and expanding the parking lot possibly have a connection behind Allard Square to Mary Street to give them a second those are all permanent easements yeah having the closest neighboring building to the school being a library in the city hall and a senior center versus just whomever develops the property and also the agreement that they raise some real issues around and I think are bonafide issues with the bus loop and making that safer and we made it very clear that we would commit to planning that with them so that the new parking and the new access would accommodate and potentially improve the safety of the school and the access in so from my perspective and I get it they have a lot that they're concerned about and understandably so it seems like they're going to get quite a bit in return for giving up a pretty small chunk of land but we continue to talk and we'll see what happens also in the benefits to the schools isn't this building the city hall moves to a new facility isn't this building part of that that's a possibility and we said that's still on the table and we can talk about a 90-day or 180-day window of their agreeing that they want to take over this space and what that would look like and what it would look like is consolidates all their disparate that they really would like and need isn't this somewhat time-sensitive yes it is we've been pushing and pushing so what do we do right now have coffee with Elizabeth that's true well I think well we made it clear that we need if they can't give us a decision soon and I think it's by the beginning of June we would go forward with Plan B and that is potentially going up four stories and putting a garage underneath and really changing the design to fit into the smaller space so or move it somewhere else in city center so I'm hoping that they will continue to discuss this and come to a hallelujah like this really is a good idea I would think so because going to a new building configuration in multiple stories isn't in keeping with what we want it to accomplish it's also more costly as I understand yeah I mean honestly and I'm a newcomer to this in this process but I've read about it and followed I think the whole thing is ridiculous it's seven tenths of an acre and you can't worry about what's ten years down the road it's good for the city now and this is where I don't understand why this hasn't worked out but I haven't been a party to it either well we're working on it and I think this information that Kevin pulled together was helpful and seeing it on a map and the realization I mean I think when they had their lawyer discussing it with him they failed to mention that the new parking lot and all of that work was going to be paid for by the city so that was news and that was helpful to their deliberations I hope yes do you think there is any point in citizens residents of South Burlington petitioning the school board to make this happen because it's such a small piece of land and there are these timelines that have to be met so we could speak up about this if we want this thing to happen do you think there's a point to that I think there's always a point to share your perspective with elected officials whether it speeds up the process I don't know I think they're going to try to make a decision by mid to late May and that will fit into our schedule for going on to bid and all of that so that's where that so I mean the conversation was good and I understood their safety issues but I think parents I mean one of the it's a letter of intent and then you guys work out the details of it and we even put on the table so we didn't have to buy it and we wouldn't have to figure out so we're trying to work all angles and I'm going to be optimistic and hope that they will make a decision that seems to meet a lot of their needs and have a little trust or hope I guess so city manager report thanks Helen so just a reminder Kevin's away for the rest of this week which is why I'm sitting here instead of over there keeping Sioux company we have an RFP out for audit services Tom's been involved from the council as part of that process they're due this Friday so we expect over the next few days we'll get a number of those in there's also an RFP out for Market Street which is great news we've been waiting to do this for quite a while those bids are due back by May 25th we've heard great things about all the efforts for Greenup Day around the city I'd like to thank Michael Matag and some of the folks here Betty and others who were involved in Greenup Day DPW was very busy going out and about around the city today picking up the green bags and other debris so I think a very successful effort and certainly appreciate everyone helping out with that effort City Center Park grand opening just so you can put on your schedule I think Kevin might have sent this out but July 25th at 4pm we're going to meet at the Barrett Street entrance to the park so again July 25th at 4pm and it's the time of year again where we're looking at committee appointments so we're reviewing the openings on the different committees we'd like to bring that to you at the May 21st meeting with your thoughts on process and how you'd like to handle publicity and interviews and selection so we'll have that ready for you at the May 21st meeting Great, thank you Council's reports from committee assignments have you had a, yeah Operations Committee this meeting this morning and we are revamping our strategic plan to look a little more visual Okay I attended my first airport commission meeting and I mean it's pretty perfunctory but some I guess announcements the garage numbers are improving they have new routes Delta to JFK and an American to Chicago lots of tickets are going down they have this big formula that they I couldn't quite understand but the gist of it is it shows how the tickets sales or the costs here are going down so that is helpful both for the consumers as well as I guess Moody's review of the airport and planements have been up the last three months and there's a 10% increase in scheduled seats this summer so that bodes well for the use of the airport the noise compatibility program when the new NEM is published it will be the first F-35 NEM published in the United States that's I guess slated for December let's see and they went through the various upgrades including the Phase 4 April and from the city and 6% from the state and then they submitted I guess I should say we have submitted $75,000 grant for the acoustical testing at Chamberlain School when they ask a question I'm going to be able to answer the NEP or the NEM that is a computer model map so they have to load in the F-35 acoustic attributes yes I think so along with the commercial those are furnished by the Air Force that's what I understand are those vetted by anybody before they're loaded into the software I'm sure the commercial values are pretty well understood I'm just curious from the first time use of those numbers if this is the first time an NEM has been done with those numbers I will find out I don't know how they're reviewed or if they're just accepted because that's what says they are I don't know maybe George knows I bet he does yeah and we did talk about the dog park interestingly enough Jean Richards also talked a little bit about the Kirby Road and he cottages and he had actually suggested to the FAA that maybe they could be sold or used by deaf people because the noise wouldn't affect them and so he put that out and he said it got all the way to DC but they said no you can't use those homes that way but I just think that's a good indication of the airport director trying to make some progress on things that we both share and I think that should be recognized because I thought that was sort of like that's sort of a cool idea it wasn't going to work but at least seems to be really proactive with finding potentially or exploring different uses or places or ways to save those cottages we'll see okay moving on to the consent agenda a little bit behind here I will move to approve the consent agenda I have an issue you go first I'll second for discussion I'm sorry I didn't catch it when it went around a week or two ago but I just need tonight's record to show or amending page one of April 16 minutes it says Mrs. Campbell Mrs. Cassette Mrs. Noak's daughter on page one it's Mrs. Cassette so either tonight's minutes or changing it and that's C-O-S-S-E-T-T-E is that right? I didn't know she had a different name plus her married name okay so with that you have another one so this request to change the name of the library to the SBPL from the SBCL totally blindsided me had no indication this was coming did anybody else know it was coming? how did you know it was coming? because it was announced at the grand opening oh it was? I don't understand well I just like to know why just briefly somebody can just tell me briefly Andrew do you want to address that please? really briefly okay anyone from the library board here actually speak to this so the sorry Andrew Bullock City Attorney City of South Bromlington this was brought to my office from Jennifer originally and the library board of trustees had asked for some sort of formal endorsement of their changing the name and it's not much more complicated than that I think the part of it was there is a non-legal understanding that South Brompton Community Library involves the school district in some way so I think that's part of the reason that South Brompton Public Library is very clearly a municipal entity okay should we include the line for David Kaufman too on that resolution I just noticed that you just have four signatures that's true, four signature lines so Andrew can we add David's signature line on that library resolution there's a couple other ones in here too mine too well there's a line but we can print in the name right do we need a resolution to do that or can you just print it I don't think so it just happens it's kind of that it's easier this time just doing it with your four signatures here we can print out your name and sign it alright any other further adjustments so the only adjustment actually is just the misspelling or the correction on the minutes of 16th we have a motion and a second so if there's no more discussion all in favor of agreeing to the consent agenda as presented signify by saying aye aye going on to item 11 the NRPA which is the National Recreation and Parks Association is that right their their review which was really interesting reading I thought yeah there are chairs over here you can actually come to the table right there's good we can detach that and pass it around right I'm Jennifer Kochman I'm chair of the Recreation of Parks committee and we're pleased to be presenting the review from 2017 to City Council and I'd like to make some introductions the people at this table introduce ourselves just briefly starting with Maggie Maggie Lugers Recreation Parks Holly Reese Recreation and Parks Katie Langrock committee member on Recreation and Parks Glenn Sprule committee member Recreation and Parks and we have three members of the committee also in the audience Mike Siminoe our Vice Chair and Linda Chasen and Paul Steinman and so we really have a quorum here tonight so I would like to start with asking Holly and Maggie just to do some summaries of what is an RPA and why did we decide to do this for the first time and what was the methodology of conducting this review sure so I can start and Helen as you accurately said the NRPA is the National Recreation and Parks Association so it's the leading non-profit organization for data collection and also advocacy so they do a large amount of advocacy in Washington they operate under three pillars which I know we've touted in front of you before but in case you haven't memorized them yet they are health and wellness conservation and social equity so we operate under those currently and and participate in an annual study of data which used to be called a pro-rages system now is park metrics so last year was the first time that we had endeavored to enter our data which is kind of an awesome responsibility and takes a lot of time but you'll see that the data that we get out of it in terms of being a marker for other communities of our same size and similar demographics so NRPA also you know is really not only the parent company for us if you want to call it that they do national conferences so it's a time for professionals and for committees to be able to go to national conferences and then they also have schools different schools like director schools they have a lot of different kinds of schools marketing schools they you know just so that professionals can get better at their jobs and part of the former pro-rages which is now the reason we did the metrics it's really kind of giving not only data but also kind of what's the driving force where are you today and where are you in the future so it really is long-range planning so this is a beginning attempt for the department to be able to do that with this data collection we just received the 2018 data information which has not really we haven't had time to review it but it's just a really good way of really knowing where cities are of similar size and being able to do comparisons so when Maggie says we just got it we're going to have like 420 on Friday afternoon so the recreation and parks committee will sort of be taking up in a couple next months what they want to do in terms of studying the next data and what we want to do annually but as Maggie said really the intent behind this is to kind of study a baseline and then kind of start to forecast okay well what do we do with it now so whether we revisit that on an annual basis it's one more tool for assessment so surveys or others anecdotal information that we get from residents is another so we see it as one important tool in kind of the arsenal of how to effectively manage the parks for the community that we're privileged to serve okay I wanted to let you know about the approach that the committee took to this the full report is a very dense item and we did post that on the recreation and parks website and we could also send that to you it is pretty much it's just a lot of statistics and then a couple of graphs that explain it and some of their methodology so we looked at that and we thought holy cow you know it's hard to break this down into terms that we can understand what we what we did really involved the whole committee for a number of months we received the report about this time last year and we spent in subcommittee and committee meetings we spent a couple of months in digesting this and looking at it and asking questions about it and then trying to pull this together and really the whole committee was involved in this it was it was really one of those efforts in which everybody wanted to try to understand what this was giving us I think in general what this showed is that it shows where the city of south Burlington has been putting their resources in terms of recreation and parks acquiring land and developing facilities and staffing and it shows that I think it shows that we do a lot with what we have in terms of facilities and staff and resources I think we do our we ask our staff to do a lot and I think that south Burlington does very well with participation considering some of our resources and I think that in general the report showed that some of the outlying statistics matched up with the assessment that we've had over the years of what it is that we need to do next and that was why we created this first page which shows our highest priorities for the near future and then some of the statistics that kind of match up with that the person who digested all of this on the first shot was Glenn and so I would like Glenn to talk about some of the findings. It was quite an effort well I still have indigestion if you haven't seen the report it looks like this it runs to it's 16 pages so you know it's not enormous but in most of that's data and I I'd rather optimistically said the first time they handed out to us well it ought to be possible for us to extract one page of meaningful figures from this that speak to some of the issues that we are normally concerned with and that we could present to council anything more than that is going to be impossible for everyone to digest at the same time and I found when I was trying to do that that it was a little optimistic but I persevered and one of the choices that I made and that the committee subsequently wanted to continue making is this the various pieces of data that are submitted by each recreation program let's call it the department of program those are there were for starters 762 such agencies represented in this report 762 of those 224 or a little less than a third were for communities somewhat comparable to ours in that they had a population density between 500 and 1500 people per square mile that's the extent to which we can fine tune the comparisons that might be made here and I thought that since I could see for instance that the median middle number of operating expenditures for all agencies all 176 762 was three and a half million dollars whereas ours is a little less it's well under a million it was 788,000 for that year a little closer to the ballpark in which we the realm in which we live was the median for the population density between 500 and 1500 per square mile that was still 2.7 million so but I thought okay that's a little closer to where our reality let's work with that comparison consistently with that middle group if you will but I'm not sure it's middle at all because that three and a half million figure makes me think we're talking about municipalities in the data mix that would be my guess and it's been a learning process for us I think the next time around if you would like us to continue trying to extract information from this next time around we're going to want to ask can you give us a list that is the national organization give us a list of the communities that we're being compared with the population of them and which state they're in at least so that we if we're compared if of those 224 all but five of them have more population than we do that's a heck of a contrast but maybe we're in the middle it would be nice to know so we extracted I made some suggestions and the committee worked on them for quite a while and we got some questions that seemed to be suggestive of informing us where we are none of this is going to make a mandate for us to spend more money or less money for that matter on anything but it's interesting to know where we stand in comparison with quote comparable communities the question is how comparable are they and national recreation and parks association performance review thank you so I I don't want to try to talk more about the details there I mean I'm here to try to answer questions along the rest I'd like to mention that Katie participated in our subcommittee meetings in the spring before she was even appointed she was a regular member of participation in this I would like to look at just the outliers that we found that we have on the screen the square footage of operating buildings at 6,500 feet is well below at least 75% of respondents and then I refer to the page where it shows this the acres of parkland for 1,000 population at 20.7 is higher than more than 75% of respondents but park operating expenditures per acre of parkland at 491 South Burlington is among the lowest of all respondents 75% of respondents spend more a lot more a lot more capital budget for the next five years at 2,231,000 which includes the CIP projections for new facilities South Burlington would still be lower than more than 50% of respondents and expenditures for capital at $42 and 34 cents South Burlington is lower than almost 75% of respondents in the number of full-time employees at 5 South Burlington is lower than more than 75% of respondents I think this reflects that the history of South Burlington which is that we have really put our resources into protecting our open space acquiring open space and protecting open space and we have not so far been putting our resources, our tax money into building facilities in creating program space integration facilities Dave is smiling he's on our foundation committee and we are hoping to get that off the ground before too long so that we can raise money and that also our staffing is lower than other communities and the things that as Glen was saying the things that we don't know is in terms of density are we comparing apples and oranges when we're talking about regions when we're talking about large cities small cities in the Midwest a lot of these kinds of things are done county wide and so we don't have that so it's a rough it's a rough approximation and yet these numbers when you're talking about below 50%, 75% and so on those were like flashing lights to us and we thought that as an advisory committee to city council that it would be important to share this with you I want to make just one note we talk about rough numbers so I think there's a couple ways that we can even improve how we might respond in terms of putting information in so we have kind of a unique situation with the maintenance of the parks with public works so you'll see that public works isn't accounted in that five full-time employee so if this is something that we want to take on as a committee in the future you know we would need some direction in terms of the hours or full-time equivalent of public works to really narrow down and get that even more accurate so that just wasn't accounted for I just want to make that note I'd like to add one word about the comparisons that you see right there which is that in a sense what we're looking at validates action that the city council and the city took recently with that the action to take $1.3 million against incoming penny for parks and address it's very glaring that we have a lot of park land and parks and then a lot of other comparable communities and we're not spending very much to maintain or improve it well we're working on that and that's good this is hindsight actually just before we allocated that $1.3 million to that purpose so we're making an improvement on that that should show up much better next time no, right did they I'm just curious since so much of our park land is kind of passive or I mean we have that one piece off Cheese Factory Road where we can't even get to it I mean there's no public access so there it sits I can't remember how many acres it is but is yes how is that sort of separated out from other parcels in the report or is it all lumped together so when you put your number in for park land again I guess I think of my kids live in Salt Lake City so I was just there they have a ton of park land I mean it's fabulous but they don't have in the city anyway the kind of part well they have a couple up in the mountains I mean there's trails and stuff but most of their park land is really improved and used largely by the citizens versus what we have which a lot of it is little trails that came with the property in a way done very little and the public may not even be using them so I'm wondering how you parse that out or can't you do that with the way it's set up I don't think there was really a way to parse it out so I think the numbers just speak to it we're spending less per acre and we have more acres than others so it's indicative of the property we have so again I think it's the right thing it doesn't necessarily say we should be spending more per acre but we have more developed park land than we would obviously need to well maybe what might be helpful maybe just to me but to sort of understand out of the acres of park land how many acres does the city that is left passive or we haven't done anything with it yet and how many actually are recreational use I think of Underwood we got plans for that and what maybe be able to identify so what is a reasonable number of dollars to spend per acre because we don't want to have every single acre we own a ball field you know a bathroom facility and that would be a per capita number that would be a per capita number that you'd be interested in knowing as opposed to a per acre of land that you no no I was thinking of let's say we own I don't know how many acres the city owns does anyone know I mean you probably know they have it here 440 440 so out of the land rich and we're program of space poor 440 acres how much is developed that 491 bucks an acre that we spend accessible right accessible so that there's a use you can get to it you might park be able to park there and so I think we would want to really talk about that question and kind of break it apart more because I think one of the real deficiencies is the open space that we have and in some respects that's more effective to care for than the manicured fields that you might be referencing so just because currently there might be an informal trail system that doesn't mean that we should be taking care of that informal trail system so I think right now we're very much in the catch up mode for especially those three significant nature area parcels so I think that would be an interesting study to kind of take a look at kind of those three tiers so the manicured kind of ball fields kind of active recreation the more passive recreation and then what I would call kind of those rural outlets that maybe only your neighbor knows about yeah right Helen asked about the Scott property is that even counted as parking in our that was not even counted oh right so I mean red rocks in my view is accessible but mostly that is sort of overrun but that's a park the Scott property isn't doesn't count as a park at this point it's not it's just a piece of a parcel that we own right a nature area so I think the inaccessible parts that aren't called parks aren't included in this data at all oh okay I think the price per capita is interesting and it kind of ties back into what I was saying at a previous meeting where I would like the council to have a discussion about how we allocate our public resources I think that it's interesting to see I mean I know that we have that pie chart every every budget year but I think it's an interesting discussion to have you know I think that historically speaking the builders of the city have moved us in certain directions and not in other directions right and that might be intentional might be unintentional and these are these are interesting discussions to have I think Tom counselor said remark that there isn't anything really surprising about the numbers that we extracted there do you have other observations as a council or questions that you would like us to address if not right now then as we look at a new wave of data that comes our way that we might be able to make sense of I got so and I'm not saying I endorse this I always have to qualify my questions oh is this the pool? No I'd love a pool that would be no Tim McKenzie raised the notion that he would love to see us as a community look at our university mall as Vermont's indoor downtown and now I'm not saying that the library is going to permanently be there it's not it's a temporary space but I'm just curious as this shows me we have a shortage a deficit of indoor recreational space as the you mall goes through transitions I'm wondering and again not endorsing this notion about how your committee has explored or considered the idea of possible temporary recreation space in any freed up locales or locations inside of the university mall to further that indoor downtown notion again not permanently endorsing that notion we did are you looking at the chill out center and it was quickly removed because we had we always knew that we were on borrowed time so that was my question too is you know that most teenage years I think that's that's one of their priorities right I know it's one of the priorities see if you see a fit in the you mall your vision that's temporary spaces it has come up and we have not done a formal push to do that but it has come up we have discussed that it's somewhat informally but teens hang out space too it was gone now it's gone now because it was always you know on condition that another retail entity wouldn't move in so yeah we really only have 440 acres of park yes Tom we have 180 with veterans and wheeler and then we have 100 with red rocks and then 70 and the new property and Spears Street is 350 already we only have another 90 that's it I thought we had more than that when you talked in JC Farrell and other stuff and that's all we have for recreation does that include like Bay Baycrest well that's less than an acre or 1.6 1.7 how about behind south village east the land that the airport gave to us for muddy brook oh that's part of the so that doesn't count towards us yeah that's the Winooski whatever it is valley I only asked because I was surprised because we have more we have more parkland than we do available program space compared to other locations and yet doesn't seem to me we have that much that's kind of surprising but in my perception as you know I'm involved with the foundation that our desperate need is indoor program space for spring late fall winter and spring when you have absolutely no place at all to put anybody right that's what we're working towards I would just highlight the importance of permanent space and innovative space so this space is only usable for so many things and is a deterrent from a lot of adult education and physical education and fitness classes or meditative classes that we might want to run so we do what we can with the space that we have but permanent innovative space would be ideal we certainly have more ideas for programming than we have space available to hold programs in and another one of the statistics I think that is telling is that people do we have pretty good participation in our programs even though we don't have permanent facilities that we call our own and I think the I think the interest is there in the community to be able to do more programming and more indoor recreation so we did bring you gifts each one of you has a recreation and parks magazine and they published some great articles I try to post them on community watch when something good comes along about just what other communities are doing and they do some good work so I want to thank you I hope you've all had the questions and thank you very much I appreciate it I thought the statistics were startling and helpful and I have more questions going forward but that's thank you for organizing this with recreation and parks we do programming for everyone in the community really pretty much preschool even below that up through our older adults when we're looking at our schools which they do a lot a lot for families but space is really limited and they're doing a lot of out of school time and we know that we're here for the whole community whole community Tim? Just a quick comment I went on vacation in Florida for a week Sarasota area so I had the opportunity to go to several parks and I noticed in downtown Venice they had an interactive fountain park for kids filled with screaming kids just having the time in their lives with buckets and pails and things that spin and stop and come back parents sitting at park benches with huge canvas style wings that were sculptural that provided shade for people very small park but very interactive and kids were playful over it also visited Maxine Berry Park in Venice as well which is it's got to be at least 20 acres it was a reclaimed wastewater treatment plant that has a third of a mile sidewalk all the way around it with vantage points overlooking the Venice beach but no access that's a different spot with a couple of pavilions a gazebo and some outdoor showers and bathrooms and water fountains beautiful spot first of all Venice is a beautiful spot but also beautiful park but one of these opportunities that was seen and claimed by the citizens of that area to turn kind of dirty into something really beautiful and there's all these wonderful egrets and herons around the edge of the pond just eating fish and there's a few gators in there too right but there's a nice fence to protect you from there there's also a dog park there and it's divided into a small dog park and a large dog park and there's even a parallel fencing system that takes you all the way down to the beach and there is a dog beach area too with signage and then I went to Oscar Scherer State Park and just bear paths for birding and things like that it's right off of 41 on the eastern side just I think it's in the Tacomas or something like that and that was another aspect we're totally undeveloped a few pavilions there's a group that sponsors some naturalist type activities there for kids got there three school bus full of kids who were finishing up having lunch there and gone for a walk there's a group of adults from Venice all the way back up to Sarasota that's heavily used so there are all these opportunities and then you go to other communities and you see what they've done a highline I just came from New York City so I saw the Highline Park as I went by and I still haven't had a chance to go up on it but I think there's like a bee and pollen and bee honey business that's being derived from that now so it's great to be rich but it also depends on what you do with it and how you make it accessible and for what the function is and what the purpose is there's also the question and again we have to think about our priorities and that's the conversation I still would like us to have people say too that perhaps the money should be used for purchasing land while the land is still purchasable and there's something to be said for that that although we might not have all of these wonderful amenities we're deciding now for us maybe two generations down the road there will be we'll be able to shift and that's something to think about too I don't think we should forget about pocket parks either I mean you have a right in your neighborhood there's some I don't know it's like the woods or something I don't know what you use it for but it's I guess walking but it could turn into a pocket park with things and I don't know destination for people there was a dirt bike circuit there for a while depends on who uses it but I mean they had fun and we've required developers as they go forward to put parks I mean and play areas which aren't officially city parks but I think that's part of the park fabric community and we should kind of count that I think we have to give it some credit because it is used by people maybe not the entire community knows about it I mean everyone knows about Dumont Park now I don't think they used to so that's sort of another piece in my mind yeah it's very important too I just wanted to before we leave you I wanted to ask do you see some value in helping to further the conversation that the Megan is asking for and that you're all participating in about how to prioritize and use our tax dollars to improve our there are many competing needs for those is this exercise that we've been through and that we're bringing some fruits up to you do you find that to be helpful would you like to see us to continue to make a pet committee coming forward with the same and I think it's when we see our committees really coming forward with very thoughtful figures for us to consider it's time for us I think to no I think it's really helpful and I think prioritizing them and you've set some priorities that I think reflect a lot of the sentiments of the council and that's great and then it's the plan to act on those what do we need first go hanging fruit let's get that done and then lean on David to raise how many million dollars are you going to raise I know we're not quite there at several right we've got to see where we're going and what we want to do but it does come down to a priority has to be indoor usable space for the off season right well we have the mechanism to buy outdoor space you know with the open space fund we have the mechanism and we need to buy outdoor space indoor space a little bit different yes and strangely as it may seem we do have weather issues at certain times a year we've got to be indoors so we'll figure it out but it's kind of exciting really and Maggie and Jennifer have been great leaders in getting us going on this and I think it'll be exciting where we're going we've been a good leader today believe it well thank you very much we'll be back in touch you know where you're going to get the power of your hands thank you well they clearly want to be heard well you know okay moving on to item 12 since we have that big long break earlier are you okay okay let me know when you need a break okay so this is the report of the dog park sighting task force so some of the same faces will come forward this is a task force that we created to help give us some guidelines about how to sight them in the future of the station we screwed up when we tried to do it on our arm we had an oops moment welcome again my name is Maggie Luger's recreation of parks and I've had the really honor and privilege of working with the dog park task force this has been a really a labor of love by several people here that are really community members not professionals in the field of dog parks or you know involved in some of the more professional areas related to dog behavior specialists etc but there's been a lot of very thoughtful a lot of thoughtful research that's been done by this group and I really want to just introduce all the members here and actually I think legally I think you guys need to each one so hold on a second here as I'm driving this this committee has actually been working for about two and a half months on putting some things together and each member they really the whole group wanted to be up here so that you could see and hear from a lot of the different members because they each have taken a section of what you will hear this evening Linda Chazon Linda is Linda Chazon is lives off of Heinsberg Road she also is on the Wreck and Park Committee then we have Katie Lennox and Katie lives over in the Twin Oaks area and I think Katie is this your first time being on a committee several folks it's their first time being on any type of committee within South Burlington then we have Betty Melissa are you Betty oh did I really oh come on I'm not the best speller we kind of went over this once sorry Betty anyway Betty lives at the Village of Dorset Park and she also is chair of the South Burlington natural resource or co-chair then we have Barb Shrivis am I pronouncing service pronouncing your last name incorrectly pronouncing it anyway she lives at Summer Woods and that actually Barbara was recommended by the council to be on this committee and Barbara was out of town for quite a bit of this but really made an incredible effort by phone for most of the meetings that we've had so far then we have Micah who lives in Corrie Ridge and Micah has been very actively involved in the committee we have Elizabeth Walker Bennett she lives in Corrie Ridge and also Catherine Young and all of those folks I just mentioned this is their first time being on any type of committee and really just doing a lot of excellent research and very thoughtful I can't stress enough the thoughtfulness of this group especially it being a first time these folks getting together that have done I think a really good job so from there I'm turning it over to you guys I want the gold star on the microphone as well so like Maggie said we've been meeting for nearly three months now and we've examined literature from other communities as well as organizations like the American Kennel Club we've looked at scoring guides developed by other cities both locally and nationally and we brainstormed as a group that led to us with the help of Paul coming up with initial site selection matrix we took that matrix and we piloted and selected South Burlington sites as well as existing sites like Star Farm and our point there was to really evaluate the matrix and to start calibrating as a group our efforts doing that led to us really expanding, adding, revising the criteria which led to the document that you were provided the matrix that you were provided Star Farms in Burlington so we just wanted to see how did this matrix look at existing sites in other communities as well and we're considering it a living document and we're sure that people are going to have input that would lead to further revisions to it so the matrix is you can go to the next one Maggie thank you our purpose really is site selection so there are lots of considerations to be made for any dog park but there are site selection pieces that we wanted to look at so we looked at size, we looked at access, location other amenities ownership and more and we created this matrix to evaluate potential sites so that was the crux of our work if you do escape we need to go out so criteria we looked at park size proximity and buffering distance to nearest homes existing buffer features and enhancements we looked at access and location and we considered things like parking, surrounding uses natural resources, access enhancements we looked at things like what we considered amenities so drinking water, shade, lighting access to those things we looked at ownership because obviously that's been a challenge in the past and then we thought about other areas as well that might be specific to certain sites so we came tonight with some recommendations for you the first is that we are recommending that you adopt the site selection criteria as seen in this particular document we have worked on it and worked on it and people took it out and piloted it and modified it it's a huge asset in that process but we think that it is ready it still will be a living document but we think that at least the basic construct is ready for adoption as something that we can use or that a committee can use to evaluate sites for possible dog parks in the city of south Burlington once the criteria are adopted then we are suggesting a process or the next iteration of the process in terms of convening at least one community forum to talk about to present the criteria so that people know how we are evaluating and also for members of the community to make suggestions about places that we should look at in the community and then come back with some recommendations for possible sites obviously we are not expecting that we're going to come back and we're going to recommend five sites and you're going to adopt them all right on the spot that would be a series of recommendations that the council could consider and have some sort of a plan for implementation of one or more of those sites along the way we also think that there is a need for operational policies things like hours of operation things about procedures for maintenance things about are we going to have a locked gate are you going to buy any annual pass how are those kinds of things going to work how might it interface with animal control how might it interface with the police department all of those kinds of things need to be considered and we're all sort of points of discussion as the committee looked at the research from other communities probably besides the site selection criteria the other thing that we really think is needed is an ongoing committee that would have geographic representation from across South Burlington and also would have at least one expert might be a vet might be a canine behavior specialist but somebody who would bring a little more professional perspective to the discussion and might raise something that we haven't thought about even though folks on this committee have done a huge amount of research you never know what might be there and there would be a conversation about how would the noise of airplanes affect a dog you know what does that do in terms of behavior we've had that conversation the airport had that conversation in closing the previous dog park but it's the best example I could think of that's sort of neutral and not going to anybody's going to think that it's really what we're thinking about so those are our recommendations from the initial work of the task force and that hopefully you would look at those and move forward with them Mike I need you over here again sorry guys why yeah because it's not coming back out so I can't we want to go to the next slide and then I want to go into the partnership one this slide is a little bit different than what you originally got the other day because some things have changed and I know we have several neighbors in the audience and we ended up doing a neighborhood forum that we did on Friday Friday evening and I'm going to say 8-10 neighbors came and they actually had some really interesting and very good points on reasons why the dog park it would not be a really great place for the dog park to be and so what has happened is the proposal that the Burlington airport put forth has been taken away due to the fact that we had a neighborhood forum for the immediate adjacent neighbors and really listening to the neighborhood and this particular site would not be a good site for a dog park for a variety of reasons and I think if you want to get into details about what those world we can certainly discuss that noise being part of it I think that you heard from a neighbor earlier this evening about the traffic and I was actually over there I've been over there a couple of times and there is some significant traffic where people you know they lift or Uber but folks that just kind of park over there instead of going over to the cell phone parking lot that are hanging around and I was pretty surprised at that and we certainly did hear their concerns and it wasn't just about concerns but they also offered some possible alternatives however alternative certainly that was recommended was pretty close to where the old dog park was where some of the homes were taken down and it was very close to the runway and so any kind of approval or even suggestion of approval from the FAA would probably not work even the Kirby Road extension which does belong to South Burlington the Picard Circle it's next to Picard Circle Kirby Road goes all you know we I would love for our new airport commissioner to explore that area that Kirby Road away from the fence line away from the runway the Kirby Circle I can certainly bring it up I think Jean was sort of backing off on the dog park just because of I think neighborhood concerns really wanting to get into another issue with that neighborhood it's South Burlington land so I don't it's not FAA purchased her own it's the road and the right-of-way that belongs to South Burlington yep so right now it's black top which Betty says is not necessarily a bad thing so she knows better than I do you know one thing that I before turned over to these guys because I think the conceptual design will be really good to just take a look at because it really is a good conceptual design in all the research that has been done and it's not just been done in this community but across the country it was really a pleasure working with the airport they were very positive the staff were amazing in really listening to you know the conceptual design work that was done by you know the three of us that were at several meetings and I cannot speak highly enough of all the staff in their consideration so with that do you guys want to so you were saying actually look at the design that you that was developed for that dog park proposal as including the attributes that the committee thought were really positive for a dog park anywhere am I saying that correctly in terms of size and I think it all depends on where you place it if you're looking at a spot somewhere I don't think it's going to go over there far enough as the matrix shows you evaluate certain things you also want to look at contour of the land you know there are hills versus it being flat you know in a particular area maybe more conducive to having just a small dog park or just a large dog park so you have to take a number of things in consideration but I'll tell you they were great about taking suggestion gave them a lot of information and like links to places for them to go and look for things and they attempted to address a lot of the things that you want to see in a dog park no corners make everything rounded so dogs don't get or children don't get trapped in a corner you know they just did a lot from a lot of they were planning but they had put a lot of those things into the plans they had developed for us without this they really listened and they were really trying to do something that would be nice for the community but also understand the situation in that neighborhood be respectful of the folks who live around here part of that plan included a large and small dog park with separate entrances and that's something as a safety which we felt a criteria was most important for any location because you don't want them getting in if you want to make your dogs fine but small dogs really need it can be easily intimidated and that whole matrix included entrances separate entrances for large and small which we feel I think very important for any location and I think having tree, tree canvies, shade I think entrances with the research that he has done quite a bit of research on areas where when you come into a dog park area you have some keystones so that doesn't become really muddy and mucky and making sure the surface the entrances in some accommodate folks that are in wheelchairs or so meeting some ADA standards around how does somebody in a wheelchair actually use a dog park so those were things that they were all willing to consider so I have to say it was really nice working with them as far as that they were very willing to consider all those things not to belabor this point but for the peak heart circle do we the city own the grass in the median in the middle or do we just own the road I think we own grass the airport owns the green streets in the middle the circle area inside the road it actually ends it's a short road but we own the whole Kirby road extension I also checked with Tom about Trans Memorial hold on Underwood and Red Rocks and he said that two things to keep in mind are one a dog park would require some ag mitigation which we could use our land to do for Red Rocks it would require some review by and you gave me the water conservation land and water conservation fund but you didn't see major obstacles to that even for Red Rocks I think that something that comes through to me is both I think it's important for us to think about residents and I understand the need for our canines too but with regard to location I think that close proximity to residences is not recommendable I would really like to see that parks that are currently used by both people and dogs and that I know a lot of people have an emotional attachment to but I think that we have to keep in mind that people will use those parks regardless of whether or not there's a dog park there and the number of times that I've been to Red Rocks a lot of people use Red Rocks like a dog park and so I think that it really is good planning for us to take a piece of land that this community cares deeply about and be good stewards and be realists and pragmatic and create a space for people who go there with their dogs but say this is how you can use it legally and make it appropriate with all of the special considerations that this committee has has gone into in the matrix and really make sure that the land that should be preserved should not have droppings wherever and have people off trail that we're really trying to make sure that those trails can be preserved I think it would really serve that interest by having a dog park and I think that the same is true for Wheeler by having something at Veterans Memorial that these are not human residents but our human residents happen to live with dogs so think about how we can meet our conservation goals by cohabiting in a way that is good for everybody I think is really important Can I just give you these I'm driving crazy with statistics I was talking to Donna earlier we have 1200 dogs with licenses in the city on one of the American veterinary websites they had a formula you could use to figure out how many dogs estimate how many dogs your community had and it estimated that we have probably over 4,000 dogs in our community majority of them are not licensed and I know that in our neighborhood everybody does for blind reasons so if we think about how many dogs that is in our community and the fact that we have parks we don't want dogs in the parks there's more restrictive rules around dogs in communities and leashes and all of that there's less space for them to do be dogs like when I was a kid the dogs just ran free that's not the case today so there's a lot of challenges and yet it's only fair to the animals and to the families for them to have places to be so it's a real shocker when you hear how many the statistics around some of these things I ask you do you want a motion to approve these recommendations as the first motion the things that really you could simply have a motion to approve all of the recommendations but my sense is that you need to adopt the selection criteria and appoint a committee and the committee then deals with those sort of three bullets in the middle I think there's a really good list I think it's a really thoughtful list yes I'm willing to make a motion if we just make a motion to adopt what's on that screen understanding that some of it identifies the work of the committee but I think that would be important to include so it's really clear that we want you to develop recommendations for sites and guidelines for operational policies and procedures would a permanent committee need to have a formal resolution does it need to be a permanent committee so our charter explicitly states the planning commission can form subcommittees and this seems in the planning commission domain they would put things in our comprehensive plan or land uses so I'm not against the standing committee but that was the one question I was going to raise to move this forward I just want to know if you'd be at all objective if you'd object to the planning commission maybe possibly exploring this as a subcommittee parks and recreational parks they can do subcommittees too right I guess so the council can create a subcommittee pardon me? recon parks we don't have to go through an appointment process and it could be more of a task force and possibly end up in a permanent state sounds good to me I guess I would and I guess saying an ongoing committee is a task force for the next 20 years I mean I think excuse me for a year or two to really develop that stuff and test it and try it out and have it as part of how we do business in south burlington and identify have the criteria and the matrix and a process would be helpful so I guess I wouldn't imagine it to be a standing committee but rather if you want to be standing committee you can come back and we can consider it we didn't label it as it's a community small c so you can call it whatever you want but it would need to be a new committee there might be members from this group but we really thought it was important to have a geographic cross section yes and I like having some some kind of expert it could also evolve into something that's a public private type of body because most there are some some supports that ongoing in most well I would say almost every one of these dog parks around the country has some kind of public private relationship private part being people who will monitor the community members and things like that friends of the dog park yeah somewhere like that but you kind of need the city still to be have some connection to the group but you could really benefit from having something that eventually I would think and maybe it's the operational policies but if if you really consider outlining kind of the responsibilities of the community you know who really is in charge of the dog we can't create a dog park that you can guarantee meets everyone's safety standards if the owners of the dogs or the parents of the children kind of just let it happen right and if you want to lock on it or if you want to have hours or numbers of appropriate numbers somebody needs to sort of and I don't think it's the police or the city I think it's the community the user community if you will that assumes that responsibility and I think if you lay it out as part of the operational policy you post it and you really I don't know maybe you meet with friends of the dog park and you say okay so how we need to train people or we need to inform them and really get them to understand that if you let your little kid in and unattended they might get hurt well you shouldn't be doing that or you take your nasty dog or she likes to get in fights that's not the right spot to exercise that type of dog unless you're alone and when you see another dog arrive you say I'll be out in just two minutes let me get in control of my dog one of the things I read about was dog parks are not playgrounds and playgrounds are not dog parks so that's the kind of thing for us to consider when you're talking about children in parks and things like that I'm sorry go ahead but like dogs kids don't pay taxes we still build place structures for them all over the place because we love them dearly and we want them to exercise I think dog parks as we've said multiple times are a necessity for future planning for the city we need a lot more dog parks not fewer dog parks I think we have to see as a part of our conservation plan to be quite frank well certainly in some places where we have conserved land that's a really important aspect and then there are other places I think where the park were not people can walk anywhere on the grass there aren't plants and flowers that are endangered and that is a different setting but it could also have a dog park but just with different addresses different needs it doesn't have two needs which I think is good so shall our recommendation be that we direct the parks and rec committee to establish a subcommittee a subcommittee or a task force or a to carry out this or should we adopt the site selection criteria and then direct why don't we let the subcommittee adopt these as their own procedure for the process of selecting a dog park or evaluating future studies for a dog park they've derived these recommendations procedures and they seem to be what they need so we will just direct the parks and rec committee to create a create a committee to carry out these recommendations they can point from themselves and they can also take any subcommittee so do I have that as the motion second is there any further conversation I just want to say I want to thank for this great piece of work here and it really points out the fact that there are a lot of variables to making a good dog park I mean it's not a simple cut and dried thing here's a piece of land throw a fence up in a gate it's a lot more than that lots of area no angles curves things that I don't think that we obviously didn't know before proximity to home is proximity to this proximity to that proximity to the airports and jet engines and propeller blades and sound and other sounds so yes this is good work I really appreciate this any other comments from the public on this yes can you come up and tell us your name please first of all I'd like to thank the task force to can you tell us who you are first there's rules anyway yes my name is Beth Williams I'm a resident at Maryland street and we went to the informal meeting and we are very grateful that you listened to our very vocal voices about how we felt where the dog park perspective dog park was going to be so I came armed with all my information that was on the website including which I'm very happy to hear that the suggestion was made to have the dog park at Picard circle because that was one of mine and I also came with some of my comments about your score statistic I'm glad I didn't have to come with my arsenal of verbiage to speak for our little section of town so I just want to thank you for listening to our small group and I appreciate your time so you're in support of this recommendation thank you any other comments ok thank you so we have a motion on the table that's been moved and seconded any further discussion ok all in favor signify by saying aye so that's good now you have some other recommendations too right jc dog park you can see them the proximity to jc park family friendly neighborhood dog park we applied a lot of what we learned and certainly our matrix to the park and the amenities, water, trees, shade wheelchair accessible was definitely one and that one is jc park you can come in I know you can get in there distance for most residents in a particular neighborhood this is definitely more neighborhood city owned and already maintained location easy to find walkable within the neighborhood and jc park is an off leash park which is an interesting piece with a playground on the site which is great but the off lease pieces was a surprise to certainly to me once the park went up but it is there but the park definitely gives a secure area for the dogs to play so that's our piece so one of the things that we targeted was challenges that all dog parks face and that's educating people and dog training how are we going to deal with complaints with whatever site we all decide on how it's going to be monitored regarding children and other dogs and also you know the big concern of relationship with the proximity of the neighbors these are all things that you know has been an ongoing issue with jc park and all dog parks as we progress we will see this with everyone so are you just one piece left you could talk into that so it's basically especially jc park challenges it was very popular as the council noticed when they visited the park it was more crowded on weekends not so crowded during the week the size is not ideal for dog park we were happy to have it it's one entrance for small and big dogs improvements to existing noise barriers which is like the sheds on the side, the garage, the parking lot there are trees and we were considering acoustic sound fencing which would prevent noise from traveling like on the side that is exposed not covered with any noise barriers comes in different color or does that stuff go? do we have this now? no this would have to be from purchase so am I since we just passed the other recommendations that really sets in place the development of the policies and procedures and that kind of thing are you suggesting that we wait to open JC dog park until the new committee works out some of the how we are going to educate and train people mechanisms for complaints or is that going to be basically we left the decision up to the council whether to open or keep it closed we put thoughts into it how to improve the park as it is with for instance you basically named all of it restricted hours opening 7am to dusk or no later than 8am somebody could come and lock the park so people can't access during the night for instance we could limit the dogs in the park and the dogs per person we could update the rules educate people more and make it a neighborhood dog park basically how does it score on the matrix that you came up with it wasn't too too bad it scored with it it was basically the what was it the distance to residents were basically a little weak but other than that it was pretty strong scoring basically we did some preliminary work with the criteria but we were really careful to use that only in evaluating the scoring guidelines and not to go back and review other than with JC not to go back we need to go back and look at that again as the committee moves forward looking at possible sites then they will begin to apply the criteria Farrell and JC did score in a pretty similar fashion and our matrix is tougher for distance to nearest homes than any of the sample matrix is that we looked at by a lot so national standards it would score very well we were being a little bit tougher with it on our matrix added veterans and red rocks but our farm and Samansky you didn't score those we scored those with the preliminary criteria to see how the matrix worked and then went back and reshaped it and then said we're not going to go evaluate all of those places because we don't know if the council is going to adopt it we don't know if there's going to be another committee that's going to be doing this work and so we didn't go with the scoring guidelines so we will go back or the new committee will go back and begin to look at existing spots as well as there needs to be a community forum so people come and say have you looked at whatever and also so they can feedback just the way the earlier speaker did in terms of maybe there is something that we missed I think that's an appropriate work plan but you're comfortable now that there's been I mean this is a question I don't mean to be a leading question are you comfortable with the neighborhoods interest in having the JC dog park be opened again I mean you haven't had a quote forum with them or have you but they know you've been talking about it and have people written to you or commented and said yeah I think this is great or don't go there personally I have I mean I've only been back a week but personally I've talked to a lot of people in my neighborhood I have received no negative comments at all I would like us to follow the same procedure for all of the sites going forward I see that as really important that this be a city-wide process I think it's just in the sense of justice justice is blind and I think that our process for setting up JC would perhaps lead to a very different outcome had we gone at it from this perspective and I would really recommend that this council be very holistic in his thinking and not do you know spot zoning and really think carefully about setting precedence going forward I really I really think that this committee has done a lot of important work work that needed to be done and I think that residents should be should be granted the same respectful process moving forward so what are you saying that before we open JC park again we have a forum a public forum know that it would go to the recreation and parks committee that would set the subcommittee and that once that matrix is set they come forward with a recommended sites for the council to consider that's what I would recommend they've applied it to it this already my understanding is you took the matrix and applied it to JC park and felt that it had at least it met the minimum we've had a petition I mean granted that's only 70 people on the voter checklist but I think they're mostly from that neighborhood is that right Donna so they are the intended and we've had other people but very very few that have come forward with and don't do this I guess I'm missing what additional steps on this particular park because I think that we need to do that we haven't already done well I'm I thought I was getting this but maybe I'm not so you've got your criteria and like JC park is kind of a template for what would come after and your recommendation is to reopen JC park according to what you envision as the standard for parks throughout the city and the JC park would be one of those parks for a dog site criteria that you're looking for for the standard that might be adopted throughout the city and so I would say this the forum that happened the other night I've sensed has occurred in informal matters up till now from what I've seen this group listen to and talk with the community but I'm all for community forums and public forums so I really think that was missing before we threw up a fence and now that we have the fence there we say well let's make use of it and it's just not the same process and I find it's important for the city to proceed in a way that is fair and equitable to all of our residents and I find that the process does if we were to go forward and treat JC separately does not assure that we are proceeding in a fair and equitable manner you all are recommending that we open permanently JC park what you're saying is if the council thinks we should open it while we find new spaces these are some of the new rules that didn't exist previously I don't know this is necessarily a permanent I think speaking that that that we believe that it should be opened it was not it was not unanimous but it was the clear majority that it would be that we would recommend that the park be open but that as we move forward as a task group there would be conversations about should we keep JC should we keep others but that at least in the interim the clear majority sentiment at least as we all heard it in the community was that it should be open so how do we enforce then if I don't know where this council sits but I think in addition to which to me is primary which is the fair and equity fairness and equities factor is enforcement if we were to limit the number of dogs how do we do that if we were to have the lock how do we do that if there was an incident how do we do that we know that there have been incidents there there was a track record and not only between dogs but between neighbors and I think that the park and I know Dave you weren't on the council but it exacerbated a neighborhood quarrel that has only gotten worse and I think that the city holds some responsibility for what have been consequences stemming from this quarrel that has been exacerbated Tom just we could go back spend the whole night talking about this and I want to highlight one of the things you had in your slide there that currently Dave just to give some historical background at JC park dogs can roam around leashless anywhere except for within this fenced in yard we spent $17,000 on so my position has been in the meeting since I'm fine with let's move it or let's have conversations about moving it but until we set a new location and identify that location let's leave it sitting there kind of silly not being able to be used but I I allow it to be open with reclaim the space you mean correct or well make it continue it as a dog park and while we identify new locations via the wheeler you can have my backyard I've got an extra acre let's move it there there you go let's do it I just said let's open it while we continue the conversation JC park to be a good template moving forward for all the things you too may have learned put all these things into place about crystal by the way and I was in the first morning here in January 8th about the dog park and I've been attending the meetings myself but I decided to but it could be a great template so that you can use for all the other dog parks and then as the days go by oh boy we gotta do this we gotta do some regulations here this dog is in vaccine we gotta hit this dog vaccine you know etc etc etc down the road and Bob is president of the homeowners association in quarry ridge could that be in quarry ridge where many of the residents who use the JC park and why not we don't have enough land we don't have enough land in there and it's common ground and we'd have to have 67% of the residents in there to approve it and I'm sure it would never be approved because it's used for the kids and the parks so there's similar issues to JC park and I think just to add on to what Councillor Chitman has said moving if we were to move the fence we would lose the cost of labor which was $5,000 to put up the fencing the fencing can be reused and also an important factor for me is that prior to the dog park there were absolutely no complaints between dogs and dogs or between dogs and people or between people and people and that's what has come out of the JC dog park so I mean I'm a neophyte on this but I understand what you're saying and I share some of the same concerns especially how you're going to enforce those things on the other hand what this gentleman said and recognizing the hard work that the group did that it can be a template for what's going to become standard policy throughout the city and I think especially in deference to the hard work that you folks did and in the fact that we're not going to say this is a permanent situation that in fairness and appropriateness while this is going forward and you're doing your work especially because we may learn some things that understanding your concerns I think it probably from my neophyte perspective makes sense to reopen the JC park in the interim what with the understanding that may not be a permanent situation but as the task force does its work that's where we are at the moment I think. I would not recommend it as a template we've had only issues at the JC park only issues Tim did you want to say something? No I just to me right now with the park closed you have unused land so that's that's not good for the park itself right you could take the gates off but I think that people find ways to just block it in and reclaim it as a dog park so if you're going to do anything I would say remove one side of fencing or all the fencing but just roll it up and put it in city storage until something happens later on we figure out what we're going to do I would be in favor of that too. I said before that if we were going to try something new as a dog park that we do with temporary fencing until we're sure that's the right thing we want to do just as going that's not one of your recommendations right so before you commit to cement and post and expensive steel fencing I'd like to buy a bunch of this stuff this is very interesting I'd like to know more about this I would like Gene Richards to take a look at this actually he did he did is he going to put up a whole fence of this exactly not black he doesn't want to be black he wants to wear a white hat so it'll be green anyway so like I said before if you didn't have a dog park at JC Park in the process that you use at the airport proposal there might not be a park at JC Park today so I wouldn't want to reopen the dog park and cause the whole stir that happened before and I really I don't know how you can actually patrol for too many dogs and have somebody responsible for walking and unlocking the park in the evening in the morning I don't know how you do that before you consider doing something like that you really consider having the placement of a park that self-regulates because it's in a location that lends itself to that in the first place just so I'm open to moving and I think we need more dog parks I would be against just ripping out of the ground rolling up and putting it in a shed somewhere I just think that's not a good place to park so behind your house as long as you put some road in so now it's a road road, yeah so what I'm saying is let's open it until we find the new place then you take the fence out and put the fence in the problem is if you reopen it right these things that are temporary tend to become permanent that's right just speak because that's how things happen well the other kids dog parks we're not to is it possible that we're smoking that my name is Diana Plur we live on Patrick Road right next to the dog park I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the council in considering what to do with the park it would have been very nice if some of this thoughtfulness had been enacted prior to the opening and prior to the closing we wouldn't be here now I think the term realistic has come up a lot in regard to the park and when we think about the needs for our community dog parks are not do not serve purely a recreational purpose for the dogs yes but in order to enable our citizens to own dogs they need to have a place to be able to exercise and in order to do that because we don't want them roaming the streets because we have other concerns we do need fenced safe areas that are accessible to the citizens of individual neighborhoods it's fine to say that we're going to spend the day at Oak Ledge or Red Rocks or wherever we're going for our dogs fun outing but the reality is people need to walk their pets multiple times a day and they need to be able to do that within a reasonable time frame they can't be taking two hours to go halfway across the city and exercise we need dog parks that are localized and allow people to make part of their walk a trip to the dog park let the dog do the running that it needs to do and then move home and move on with their with their business the issue of you know all the the complaints and problems at JC I think are truly inflated I think there were very few problems with it one of the problems I think that or one of the causes of the problems with dog parks was our lack of dog parks when we are drawing people from other towns and all the way across South Burlington the number of dogs we have in South Burlington and we have two small dog parks I mean it's unreasonable to think that that could meet the need in the meantime we had a year in dog park because of the closing of the airport in haste put one up in JC park that functioned well and yet was serving far too many people and now we've gone another nine months or so without it in the meantime everyone is scrapping and trying to figure out how to make things work with their schedule and their pets the fact that JC park is an off leash park is nice but it's just impractical for many people not all dogs behave such that they're able to be out and about running loose they're not under voice command control so the dog park at JC had complaints I don't believe it was an official complaint ever filed and so to use that as a reason for not reopening the park at least while exploring other options and again if other parks around the city were opened then it's much more likely that the number of dogs and people at the park wouldn't be such an issue but at the same time there certainly are ways to figure out how to make some of these adjustments if we think that that's what it takes to make it functional thank you very much let's not reiterate I was just going to say she voiced my concern is that the popularity was due to the lack of space elsewhere workable because of the number of dogs that were there at times this template should not be at a small neighborhood park it should be at a big size where we have large dogs in one space small dogs in another space where people can from other communities come which would be I think easier to enforce than having there are over 250 signatures on a petition and half of them were from South Burlington that tells you how many people were coming from out of South Burlington to go behind four people's homes to run their dogs it was an issue so are we ready Helen I'm the house that's probably less than 100 feet away from the dog park and thank you for being so respectful of the other neighborhood that you're thinking about expanding into I would just say 7am sounds great to you if you don't try to be sleeping on a Saturday or Sunday morning in your backyard and Danny you brought some great points you come to the park you stay for an hour your dog plays sparks goes home somebody else's dog comes to the park plays sparks goes home my day from 7am until 7am is dog sparking you're there for an hour so just please be thoughtful of that and thank you again for being so respectful of someone else's neighborhood I would hope that when you are expanding you are thoughtful to ours I spent October going into my school CVU high school in Heinzburg to get work done and coming back with my doors closed and my windows closed I am dreading thinking about my summer my short weeks in my backyard while your dogs get to come because you don't want to have them in your space you can't get people to agree to have them in your space so you want to bring them to JC Park I have two dogs, not a dog hater I'm also a very respectful dog owner and I'm thoughtful about the noise my dogs make and I'm thoughtful about the impact to my neighbors and I just hope that you're thoughtful to our life might only be three houses in Shepard Lane that don't get along and because we don't get along our voice is the only voice saying it's not working for us and we are the closest backyard to the dog park so I would hope that our voices do matter and I would hope that you take that into consideration tell me your name again I'm Tammy Dickinson thank you last one what have you been waiting for oh I'm sorry you know in response to that and I can understand that very well but you know I'll just go over this real quickly in the recreation and parks of the JC Park at 6.9 acres of active neighborhood in the amenities there one lighted baseball field one softball field two basketball courts small pavilion picnic areas playground open space parking closed dog park now this will continue all summer long okay all summer long and people don't take their dogs over there for an hour so the other lady said take your dog over you know you get home for lunch quickly take your dog let it run around the other point I'd like to make is JC Park is an off-leash park which we talked about next to the playground dog park will be safe for safe space for dogs to play it's a neighborhood park neighbors connected while their dogs were playing dog parks become popular because that was the only one in the area City Council again acting too fast filed open meeting laws and I really believe that what this committee has done here is a good template to get this open and watch what can be done in the future each one of these things can be put in place and you know I just meant to make that point for this committee here thank you okay okay I'm Jill Stevens and I live on Arbor Road in the summer woods neighborhood and what I have to say will probably be beneficial to a long range template down the road and years ahead but right now it's important to me to have JC Park reopened my deck looks out on to Shepherd Lane I hear intermittent dog barking what I hear mostly is sports teams into the night I happen to like the sounds of kids playing and and the good noise that comes from that but my main point is to talk about accessibility and that was brought up a little bit earlier and it's something that is really important to me as far as JC Park goes and reopening it with some immediacy if possible I have multiple sclerosis I've had it for 23 years and it's progressive and that means that little by little things get taken away from me and become inaccessible in my life and so and so it has cost me a career I'm a speech and language pathologist it has cost me the right to drive I can't ski anymore I can't snowshoe and I can't walk and so I was delighted that JC Park was going to open because I can take my scooter with my dog independently down the sidewalk to JC Park and spend some time with my dog and also with my neighbors I just I live in a wonderful neighborhood in Summer Woods and I just love meeting all my neighbors around and so there's a social outlet to this to JC Park as well that I really appreciate so it was just so fortunate to have some place accessible that I could get to independently and that doesn't happen for me anymore and people don't understand and take for granted because they don't have this issue going on and it's progressive and it becomes every day there's some other little thing that gets taken away but I had this little thing and it was pretty important to me and then suddenly the park closed I was kind of indignant that one more thing was taken away seemingly because of one person's complaint but I don't I don't know for sure about that and without a lot of substantiation and while South Burlington is growing and building I've made phone calls and found out that accessibility is indeed a consideration for the new area along Market Street for the new park for the new bicycle program there people are thinking about that and then then we had JC Park and then it's just gone and I would just ask you to do the right thing and I'm speaking for a lot of people that you don't see there are a lot of us out there and we need these things and our dogs do so my back acre would not be accessible without a lot of worries needs and rights really do require a blind justice I really hear your appeal I got a dog and I put a fence in my backyard so my dog could run free and I know that that's not an expense that everyone can afford but I think that dog ownership does require some responsibility and some planning and when we are dealing with a municipal structure and we're dealing with needs and rights I really think that a citywide policy is an order I really I hear your appeal I'm sympathetic to it I think that there are many people in many neighborhoods who hear your appeal and are sympathetic to it I think there are people in this room who hear Tammy's appeal and Beth's appeal and are sympathetic to it and that is why I really am appealing to this board to proceed thoughtfully and carefully I cannot vote in favor based on what I have experienced since last September I am a dog owner I know what responsibilities come with being a dog owner I I also believe that as a council we need to we need to deal with people with fairness and equity and I do not see that in doing a specific action here tonight can we move forward yes I would like to determine which way we're going so rather than have any other comments because we've really had a lot of a long night of this and this is our third night of this we have our chair of our recreation and parks committee I was just going to suggest that if you do vote to reopen the park that those are not specific that the dog park committee can put some wash on that and bring it to us and we can hash out in recreation and parks committee what the specifics of those things are going to be before it opens so if you vote on a yes tonight then it could come back to us we could come back to them they can put the flush on that and come back to us and bring it to you jointly with the dog park committee I just think that is not specific I totally understand that it's not specific enough so I think the motion or I would entertain a motion to reopen the JC dog park not in perpetuity but as a template I guess for applying the specifics that the subcommittee would develop I will make that motion and I just want to add to it why I support opening JC dog park is because I just don't think we tried enough when it was open we put the park in, we did some due diligence and I see an opportunity here to try some of these things we didn't give it enough time so let's try enforcement, let's have the police check let's lock the doors and let's see if we can make this work and I'm still removing it I just think it's there, it's our money and I support opening the dog park and I make the motion as Helen stated do I have a second? can we amend the motion the first or after the second? we can amend it now in that motion I think this is not a permanent that's until I attend definitely I accept it as a friendly amendment is there further discussion? I'll just say that I heard the very passionate pleas of the occupants of the house that are above the park about the devastation and the quality of their lives because of the barking that emanated from that park once it opened and it was overpopulated by people from mostly out of town and I went to the park myself in October on a Saturday afternoon at 3pm and I sat there in my car and I witnessed how much goddamn barking there was coming out of that dog park and it was incredible and if I lived in Jason 2 it would drive me nuts too and I would not put up with it for one second and I wouldn't want anybody else to put up with it because it wasn't there when they moved in their house and for sure there were sports games going on that's a different kind of sound it is not the same as 13 or 14 or 20 dogs all barking incessantly for an hour or two or three or four and they lived adjacent to the park so that is my opinion I will not vote to reopen this park until something else is done either remove the park somewhere else or follow your procedure and start from scratch start from scratch at J.C. Park from step one and see what happens when you get the neighbors there and they tell you what their opinion is about having you just went through that process at the airport and what happened they said they didn't want it and when the homeowners association of people who are on the committee say we can't have it there I really see a conflict of interest I'm really really opposed and I'm sorry for those who have spoken this morning I'm sorry for the people who have spoken who feel like they've had something revoked from them that was given to them and it was something that they really cherished I'm sorry for that but there are other factors at play here other people's needs and those needs might actually be greater than yours so that's why I'm voting when we go to vote for this Any further discussion? Is there a date when that would be reopened or is that open ended? We last time when we closed it it was the next day so I wouldn't Are we going to send it to them? I don't know Well it was done without warning but it was voted and my understanding wasn't there my understanding was it was going to be closed the next day and it was I'm finally opening it tomorrow I'm finally opening it in a week What do you think? And the chair of recreation and parks It might be good for them to be able to maybe put a couple of criteria in place for a moment for a couple of weeks until there can be some more specific guidelines Is that something that can be done or not? That was my proposal Is that The subcommittee look at those makes some of these specific come to recreation and parks as a subcommittee and we can look at their specifics and then the park would open if you guys vote on it it would open after that after some of these things have been put in place because that is too general as it stands right now How about opening Friday May 25th right before a three day weekend? Well and maybe they can come back with some specifics before the meeting on the 21st It's really possible to pull together a subcommittee that then would have to be put in I have a lot of confidence in Tom Hubbard and Maggie and Maggie Lugers too so I think the piece ignore you The committee really did a good job and I really recommend committee work One other thing I want to say for myself though Tom is I actually need for vacation next Tuesday two weeks and to try to convene this group What's a reasonable time for that to have at least a preliminary template of how to address restricted sight hours locking in coming up with a number of appropriate dogs I don't know what the number is One of the biggest problems is the dogs went out of town and that shouldn't be allowed I don't know how you police that People don't like to break the rules we can say South Burlington dogs only Yeah register South Burlington, register dogs only That's when you do what most municipalities are doing around the country now is locking having a mechanism where people actually purchase or get with their dog license a swipe card or something that can be done but that's an expensive that's an expensive about $5,000 it's isn't worth it that's the question so it's becoming more and more permanent as we speak that fast that's for sure but what's a reasonable amount of time is there a reasonable amount of time or does it just put it off for six months which is probably likely you have a lot of respect for this do you have a suggestion I think it should be the discretion of the committee that's put you into the recreation parks committee and I don't want to speak for them say it again Tom I was just trying I think the question is how much time do you need and I don't want to speak for the committee in terms of how much time you feel you need but what do you have to do I don't know I don't know I don't know I'm done I mean because my understanding is the process we're talking about is not to have the parks and recreation committee become this subcommittee but they would create one that is of people from all over the community an expert and they would address all of those issues and come back to I guess the council with a plan now it sounds like the parks and rec committee would like to intervene one other time if it is a subcommittee of recreation parks they could bring their recommendations to us and we could spend the time rather than having it spent in city council it would be spending it in you know and then the subcommittee could bring it back to you I'd go back to I'd be open to just opening it tomorrow and then have all that happen alongside it being open to have those changes be applied but I could go any way on this I think I would tend to push it back a little bit some of the work I've done but I don't have a date in mind well then you make it at their discretion when they come back with a recommendation of implementation for you know the rules for JC Park I guess they could come back with there aren't enough rules that will make it worth opening I don't know amending the motion to to be opened on the date set by the parks and rec committee hmm no I think they have to come back to us if it were to open yeah so I think it would be contingent upon their report and recommendation of the council on council action so maybe several months I think and then that addresses Megan's process issue I'm done nobody's going to be happy to compromise is this I can support that when it comes back to the council vote I think it's a gradual long term conversation it gives everybody time to think about this and we'll do it right so I'm so we don't want to stretch it out no it's expeditially impossible you mean at the 21st could we have the recommendation by our first June meeting we have to create the committee first first we have to create the committee we have a committee but if we want to expand and include others then I think we have to give fair you know whether it's in the paper the form to invite new individuals from across the city because we're going to be looking at other places and they may have other sites you know so I think that that's certainly a consideration I also think it's a consideration with Maggie's expertise that we would certainly find on the committee would want her expertise in kind of guiding us because that's something and also Betty that they do extremely well especially with Betty's research so I don't know I think May is not it doesn't look right maybe I mean next time our parks would meet after May would be June so in July we open the park on June 15th without hopefully with some guidelines and rules I think the existing committee can make progress on this as you bring on a broader committee there's no reason that you can't do some of the essential work and so maybe look to the middle of June that would seem to be a reasonable compromise it won't make everybody happy by a long shot but it's a reasonable compromise yes I just I have a concern to be honest with you of having our committee then answering having to go to the rec committee before it comes to you and I don't know procedurally how you deal with that but I feel like you're doubling I mean it's just delaying to having the committee I mean I can see it under the rec department I'm not sure whether I think it should be under the rec committee you've already voted so but I think you're doubling you know time the time and work we're going to be I think we are as well I think our intention was to have the parks and rec committee it was your idea to create the committee to work on these things and my thinking was they would come back to us with a recommendation I don't know that sub committee sub committee sub committee will come back to you yeah rather than have that sub committee could come back with these are the sites where the dog parks could go and that's when we'll move the fencing just open the park to let people because they can already run with the dogs off leash outside of the space they're already putting their dogs inside people are already hopping the fence let's remove the fence I would not support that without a new place to put the fencing but that's me I would support opening the park I would amend the motion to remove all the fencing of the park and put it in storage I wou