Hi guys! What is up? Welcome to my channel! So for today's video, I'm going to be talking about the new collection that Charlotte Tilbury just released. I was on the fence for a few hours when this first released. I purchased it from the early release or pre-sale. So this is the eye color magic collection where it's supposed to make your eye color pop. Each palette corresponds to an eye color. So there are four different options as far as quads. And then she also has four corresponding dual eyeliners that go with each of the palettes. So if you want to see my thoughts individually on each of the palettes, see a look using each of the palettes, swatches, all that good stuff, then just keep watching. So really quickly before I get into the makeup part, I did want to talk about something really quick because I just feel like it doesn't feel right if I don't mention it because there are some things going on right now. I am off of work for the next two weeks due to the coronavirus. And with this serious matter going on, it seems a bit silly that I'm sitting here talking about makeup and using my time during this break to do that. But I think it's a really nice escape and I just want to say I hope you guys are staying healthy. And for those of us who are really not at risk for this virus, I think it is important that we keep in mind those who are at risk and change the way that we're doing life right now for those who are at risk. So just be mindful, you know, even if you really aren't afraid or worried about the virus that there are people in this world that are and they need to stay protected and that's why all of this is going on to protect those who do need that protection. Just wanted to say that so you guys what's going on with me and what they've decided to do with my job. So I do have some time to film over the next two weeks. I'm very excited about that. So if you have any video suggestions, just let me know. Anyways, I would like to get into the new collection that Charlotte Tilbury has released. This is the Eye Color Magic Collection. Now this collection comes with four eyeshadow quads. These are limited edition quads. They are $53 each and each quad color is supposed to be for a specific eye color to make it pop. Of course, that should not limit to you to which palette that you purchase. You can purchase whatever colors you want. And along with each palette, she has come out with a matching dual-sided eyeliner. I only purchased the green one to go with the green palette just to test it out, see what the formula was all about. So you'll see that towards the end of the video when I review it. But the format of this video, I am going to put timestamps down below because I want to talk about each palette individually. So if you were only thinking about purchasing a specific palette, this is your way to go straight to it. But I do give my overall thoughts kind of comparing one to the other at the end of the video. But I did want to format it in a way in that if you weren't interested in all of them, you don't need to watch this whole video. Just some general facts though. Like I said, these are all $53 and they are all limited edition. The eyeshadow palettes themselves are made in Italy and the eye pencils are made in Germany. So I'm going to quickly go over each of the palettes. So the first one that I'm going to show you guys and do a tutorial with is going to be the super blue palette right here. The second palette I will be overviewing is mesmerizing maroon. The third one that we have here is copper charge. And then the last one that we have here is green lights, green lights. And now keep in mind, this palette is the rebel, which just released a couple of months ago. So if you purchase the rebel, don't purchase this. It's the same palette just with a different name, which I'll get into in the video. But anyways, if you would like to see my thoughts on these palettes, we're going to start off with super blue. So let's get into it. So the first palette that we are going to talk about and go into is the super blue palette. Now, this is the one that you guys seemed to be the most excited for it because quite honestly, it is probably the most unique of the four compared to the rest of her line. She just doesn't have a lot of blues in her line. And looking right now, it looks like online, this is the only one that is currently sold out. In this quad, you are getting a metallic gold, kind of a shimmery brown. Her pop color is a royal blue with kind of some glitters to it. And then you have a matte navy. Now, I actually don't own a single matte navy from Charlotte. So I believe this might be a first from her. I have a blue from the icon palette that came out a couple of years ago. The icon palette blue is a bit more black based compared to the blue in here. This is more sheer, not too much of a base for it. So they aren't very similar and just kind of for these two, I stuck in this palette in case you do have the icon palette. I swatched the blue. I swatched this compared to the bronze color and I used this compared to the light gold color. Though they are in the same family, none of them are the same. You can get similar colors in the icon palette to these three. Don't have a navy from Charlotte Tilbury, though in the realm of makeup that is not a unique color. Within her own line, this is definitely the most unique of the four. As far as the overall quality of this palette goes, I found that it wasn't the most easy of the quads to apply because it is a navy palette. It has those blues, but the quality is still fantastic. This is a great navy shade. You are going to get fallout, but it has a lot of pigmentation to it. These two paired together are a beautiful combination. And both of these are beautiful shimmery colors, just extremely creamy, extremely pigmented. So overall, I do really enjoy this palette. I personally don't really like blue shadows. So for me, this wasn't the most exciting. And I feel like I wish you would have just gone all out with blues and silvers in here because these two colors are doable within her own line. It's really only the half of the palette that is the most unique. All together, they are really pretty. I am very happy with the look that I came up with. And I really didn't have any problems with application. So I'm going to take you into the tutorial for this one. So we're going to dive into super blue right here. We have no choice but to do a blue smokey eye. So I'm going to start off with the matte navy shade. This is a refer number 15 brush picked up a lot on the brush. We're going to tap off the excess by building this up in the outer corner. As you can see kind of right away, we have a lot of pigmentation right now. The only thing on my eyelid is Max painterly paint pot. And that will be the base that I'm using for all of the looks today, just to keep everything consistent. Navy typically is a tough color to work with. But this ended up working relatively easy. Of course, like when you just leave it like this Navy struggles, but I like that I'm going to build up just a little bit to see how it packs. And it packs on very, very nice. Really, really dark, not quite as blue as I was hoping, but she did a pretty good job with this formula. I'm going to take a light fluffy brush just to soften these edges. Next, we're taking the shimmery brown shade, getting that up on a refer number two. And traditionally, I probably wouldn't do this. I'm really trying to play with the colors and that was absolutely stunning. Oh my goodness. And it applied beautifully with a brush. Then with a refer number three brush going to pop this in the inner half. Now this is a very traditional Charlotte Tilbury shade. These two aren't very unique to her line, but the blues most definitely are. And then when I want to play with the pop shade, so I'm just going to use my finger and this is more creamy than the older formula. And I'm going to pop this right on top of the Navy. And dang, that's pretty. That really compliments the Navy. Honestly, I don't even need the other two. Like these two together are match made in heaven. You can see we did get some fall out, wipe that away. And on my lower lash line, I'm taking the Navy on my lower lash line and then topping it off with this. That Navy does produce some fall out. So I would say do your eyes first. But here is the look with the blue palette. I really, really love it. So you'll see in a second with some lashes and all of that good stuff. But the quality of it is really nice. You have some new colors to Charlotte Tilbury. And here is how we're looking for the final look with this squad. So I really do enjoy this. It definitely does kind of make my eyes a little bit more brown. So yes, the premise of this palette is to make brown eyes look more hazel. And I do agree with that. Like it did kind of brighten my eyes and I can see it better. Personally, I like purples more to kind of bring out brown eyes. But I do think that this worked and it is really pretty. And I do enjoy this palette. If you like blues, you're going to really enjoy this. If you don't, you probably won't be using these bottoms you. But the neutrals in here are great as well. So even if you don't like blues, you are using the top two. However, this is quite a pricey quad. So it just depends if you think it's worth it to only use the blue occasionally and use the neutrals a lot more. But I like this palette. I think it's really cute. I'm happy I have it in my collection now because it is quite unique. So the next quad that I went into, which is this eye is mesmerizing maroon. And I have to say upon opening it, it's not very maroon to me. It just seems more of like a plum palette, mauvey plum, not really maroon. Now this is supposed to make green eyes look greener. So in here, finish wise, you are getting two shimmers up top, her pop formula and one matte. The shimmer formula is very consistent, very pigmented, very shiny and metallic. The pop formula, this one is quite a pigmented one compared to a lot of her pop formulas. And I really feel like she reformulated her pops and it's a much better formula. It's much more creamy in her previous palettes that pop formula gets hard panned and then it gets harder and harder to pick up the color from it. These so far and this goes across the board for all four of these don't seem to be getting too much of a hard pan. I do see a little bit, but oh my gosh, it's so much better and it's so pretty. I have to say opening it, this one was my favorite because you know, I love more purple tones and I thought to myself, this one might be the most unique. Now looking through my collection and swatching, it's not as unique as the blue one, but this one I did have a hard time duping and I was surprised by that because it is Charlotte Tilbury tones, but it's actually much more purple than she typically does. So what I did swatch for comparison was from the stars in your eyes palette that came out in 2018 and what really reminded me of it was the confident eyes. So just so you can kind of take a look and then I did grab this one just to compare it to the lightest one, but I thought that that palette had the most similarities to this one. The matte shade is extremely similar in the stars in your eyes. It's a little bit more purple, but the shimmers are more different. I feel like the confident eyes has a little bit more deepness to it and this lighter shade really isn't a dupe for this. So definitely some similar shades from the stars in your eyes. That one was limited edition though, so if you do have it, you might be able to get a very similar look with this quad, but if you don't, taking stars in your eyes out of the Charlotte Tilbury line, this is actually a unique one in her line if you don't have stars in your eyes because that was limited edition. So honestly, this is more unique than you would think it would be. So very, very happy with this one as far as application goes. I really think I get a Charlotte Tilbury look with this. That glowy, glimmery kind of eye application was extremely simple. I'm just going to let the tutorial speak for itself so you can kind of see how it worked. But this one of the four I think is my favorite just because I like these tones for my brown eyes. I feel like they really complement brown eyes, but of course they're made to complement green eyes as well. And it's just overall really pretty palette and I think you guys are really going to like it if you like purples like I do. So we're going to be digging into mesmerizing maroon for this one. So I'm going to start off with the enhanced shade right here. And this is how you get that Charlotte Tilbury glowy kind of look as you put that shimmer in the crease. That's really, really pretty. Now, as you can see when you blend the shadow out, it really is not on flattering on the crease. Like I know so many of you are scared to do. That was an Esum G34 brush, by the way. And now we're going to go into the matte shade in here and I'm going to place that right in the outer corner. It's blending out stunning. I'm going to take the pop shade right here on our finger. This is going all over the eyelid. So her pop shade is so much more creamy. It doesn't seem like it's getting hard pan like all of her other pop shade formula. And this shade in particular, wow. Do you see how stunning that is? When the light hits, I am loving these glitters. Very nice. As you can see, there is a sheer base to it. But that's pretty typical of her pop formula. We're going to take just this shimmery shade. It's a plain shimmery shade, not the pop formula. I'm going to put that right here. And I'm going to mix these two shades on my lower lash line. Literally just mixing them and popping them down here. A little bit of fallout, but here's the look I made using this palette. Oh my gosh, I love it. And I just, so you can see for comparison. So I'm going to do some lashes now. So of course, finished look of both. I love both of these. So it's time to move into the next two quads. I don't think there's a very smooth transition I can make for it to go from this look to the next look. So just prepare yourselves. So the one that we have on this eye right here is copper charge. Now copper charge is supposed to be for blue eyes to make them more blue. Now of the four, I would say the colors in here are probably the most wearable for the person who is more into neutral shades. So I think this one is going to be quite a popular one just in that it is so very wearable. Now in here, you have two foils and then one of her pop shade and then a matte. I love that most of these have at least one matte because I feel like with the shimmers of her palettes, you do need one to kind of even it out, tone everything down. Now this one was the one I was probably the least excited for because it just kind of looks like her whole line. This is the one palette where I felt like of all of the Charlotte Tilbury palettes that I owned, I would put it next to them and there were at least one similar shade that across most of the palettes. So this one is most definitely the least unique to the Charlotte Tilbury line. I'm sure if I had gone through every single palette, I could probably come up with some dupe for dupes within her own line. But I did just for an example, swatch it next to Dreamgasm. Dreamgasm is on the bottom just because I felt like the tones were very similar with the exception of this rose pop shade. But other than that, Dreamgasm and Copper Charge, just this is only one in the whole collection. So I feel like this fits right into Charlotte's collection in that it kind of looks the same as the rest of her collection. But it is very, very pretty. The quality of this was extremely nice and you'll see that in the demo. But I do like this palette. It's just if you own a lot of Charlotte Tilbury products, eyeshadows in particular, you probably don't need this one. This is one that you can save money on if you're looking for originality. But it is really pretty and it worked very well. So here is the demo for how I got this look. The next palette we're digging into is Copper Charge. I'm going to do kind of the same format where I'm taking this shade right here, the shimmery one. I'm going to use this to kind of give that all over eye glow in the crease. For this one, I do feel like it's a little bit more foil. So it's not as flattering all over the crease unless you have very smooth eyelids. Like it still works for sure. It just seems to be a little bit more foil than some of her other shades. Next, we're taking the matte. Doing this should pretty much solve that though because all you really need is one matte like this to kind of make everything okay. My gosh, these are blending so buttery smooth. It's crazy. I'm going to take this shade right here on my finger. I'm going to pop this everywhere. Beautiful golden shade. I'm sure you blend that with the other colors so it's seamless. Then we're going to take the pop shade here, which again is that creamy pop shade. And I'm just going to pop it on the center of my lid. The shade isn't quite as glittery as the other pop shade. It does take a little bit of building if you have another color underneath. Overall, super duper pretty. And then lower lash line, all I'm going to do is run just that matte down there. I'm going to do it kind of smoky. So I'm using the refer 15 brush, which is a little bit bigger to smoke that down here. So this palette I got virtually no fallout. It's probably the most everyday friendly for most people out of all of the four and everything applied very easily. This is very typical Charlotte Tilbury colors and tone. Just beautifully applied great everyday look with a little bit of pop to it and nothing out of the ordinary here for Charlotte Tilbury. It's overall great quality. So here it is with lashes. I would say overall I didn't get a ton of depth with this one. You have this one shade to add depth and I really felt like I could have gone in with something deeper. But of course with a quad you are limited, but just something to keep in mind that this isn't necessarily the deepest look that you can get. The last one that we have here is green lights. This one is made for hazel eyes to make them look more gold. You guys know I've been really into green eyeshadows lately. So I was very excited for this one. Now something to note is that this palette has already existed in her line. A few years back she had a palette called The Rebel and then recently like a couple of months ago she came out with The Rebel again. It was supposed to be reformulated and just like new and updated with her line. And I'm kind of disappointed because this is The Rebel. It's just being promoted with a different name.  Don't advertise this as new because it's not. If you are a collector don't pick this up if you've already purchased Rebel. I've been eyeing Rebel very hard so once the whole collection came out I was like alright here's my chance to buy it. So I'm happy that I have it now but it's just under a different name which it'd be different if that quad had been in her line for years. But no that palette literally just came out like two months ago and she's already renaming it. So that is kind of annoying but that aside let's get into the actual product itself. So this one doesn't really have any true true mattes so you have three foiled shades. I found that the pop shade here it is the pop formula kind of but it is different. It's not as shimmery and glittery it's more so of a foiled shade and it has more of a base to it. So it's not her traditional pop shade and then the matte right here it's not really a true matte. It has some particles of glitter in there that are very very fine but you actually you'll see in my demo that you could see the sparkles when I applied it. The shade is beautiful it blends it out and it works as that contour shade that is going to be matte. But I did find that the glitters kind of fell on my face which is a little bit annoying but just be aware of the finishes in this quad. Overall it is extremely pretty I'm very into this type of green look and I'm very happy that I picked it up. If you like those khaki olive green, green golds kind of looks I'm really really into it. Overall like the quality of this is very good consistent across the board with this collection but it's not actually new. Kind of a marketing boy but other than that really do enjoy it. As far as this compares to her line what I did notice I only found like one similarity. You're going to find that if you have these starry eyes to hypnotize palette. So I just went through and I swatched all three of these colors underneath the actual green lights palette. I also just stole a gold from the icon palette just to kind of pair it with another one. The gold in here is much more yellow and vibrant. As far as the greens there were no true dupe but definitely very similar like they could be added to the same palette. Or honestly if you have this palette and you're not looking for too many duplicates. You really don't need this if you have the starry eyes to hypnotize but this one is limited edition. So if you don't have this or you didn't pick it up and you are looking for these green shades from the Charlotte Tilbury line. This is where you're going to find it. There really isn't any other green shadows like this in her line that I have experienced. So here is the tutorial for that look. So we're going to be using green lights for this look. I haven't used this yet before so it looks like there's no real true mattes but we'll see how they apply. Using that same technique I'm going to use the enhanced shade as my transition color. I mean it's so easy how these palettes are laid out. You can get pretty much always a thoughtless look if you just follow the recommendations that she gives. And this is blending out beautifully. It's not too too shimmery to the point where it's unflattering. We're going to take a smaller brush. I'm taking the Wengos 19 and we're going to see how this shade is. Now as you can see there's glitter packed in there. A lot of times with these shades you'll find that they kind of just blend away. Now this shade when I dip my brush in there was a lot of fallout so I did have to tap off my brush. And I don't know if you can see but I do see these little glitter particles that are in the matte. The shade itself is really pretty and it's more of a matte base with these glitters. And the glitters are kind of falling down here so they kind of go away. Which at that point I'm like why even put the shimmers in there if they're just going to fall in my face? But I like that. I'm going to go ahead and pop that on my lower lash line as well with this brush while it's in my hand. So I'm going to use the gold as my inner corner color. Actually my inner third kind of lid shade. I just love using her colors with a finger. And let's try the pop gold. It was kind of stereotypical. This doesn't really seem to be that glittery glittery formula from Charlotte. Just a foiled shade. So not real true glitters that you find from her stunning shade though. If you are into these kind of green eyes, this is a really pretty palette. I've been eyeing this so I'm happy that I bought it with this launch.  Really pretty green gold look. So let's put on some lashes. So along with the eyeshadow I did apply the eyeliner duo that she came out with. Now she came out in this collection with four different eyeliners that correspond with each of the palettes. I wanted to pick up one just so I could test out the formula. I'm not huge on pencil liners. I already have a lot of different colors. So I just felt like I didn't need to buy all of them. But I did want to buy one to talk about the formula with you guys. And the colors that look the most unique to me was the green one that I picked up to go with the green lights. So I did use it today for this look. Now what's awesome about these liners is that you get one metallic side and you get one matte side. And I'm really just a black eyeliner kind of person. Sometimes I'll do brown to mix it up. But that's another reason why I didn't purchase the other colors is because they really corresponded with the palettes well that they were paired with. But they weren't colors I would use very often. I just use black, you know, the blue palette had a blue liner, the red palette had a red liner. It's just not colors I would go for very often, but I do love green. So I thought I would pick this up to try the formula and I have to say I'm very, very impressed with the formula. Impressed to a point where I might pick up the other colors. I use the metallic shade in my lower lash line here on my waterline and it is sticking very well so far. I haven't really worn worn it out. So I'm going to update you in the description box how I find that these wear. And then on my upper lash line, I use the green and this is like a true matte shade. And I was actually surprised at this green shade because it was a little bit more green than I was expecting. I was expecting it to have more of maybe like a neutral brown base just because of the tones of the eyeshadow. But the brightness of this green actually made it pop against the eyeshadow even more. So I found these very easy to apply. They're pretty creamy. The matte was not as creamy as the metallic side so it did make it a little bit more difficult to run along my upper lash line. But it still was very easily and I like that it almost was a little bit more difficult because these set down. That is what is really great about these eyeliners. These swatches up here from this morning of eight. I've washed my hands. I've done all of that and they're still just not moving. You have very little dry time with these guys. So if you are looking to smudge these out, you got to run fast or use an eyeshadow to smudge it out because they set down. So they are a very extremely creamy formula, but they dry down very quick and set and they don't move. Very impressed with this formula. And I think if you purchase one palette, it would be really fun to purchase the corresponding liner. So I don't have anything bad to say about this. Alright, so I just wanted to come back and give you kind of my final rounds up of the quads and what I think of them. Overall, I think she created a really beautiful collection. The formulation and all of these are spectacular. They're honestly better than her older formula. I noticed them to be more creamy, have some more pigmentation to them. And the pop shades in particular is what I'm most impressed with as far as most improved. Because I really was not a fan of her pop shade when it would get that really hard pan and it would clump up within the pan. I haven't gotten that impression that these are going to do that thus far. It just feels better. It looks better. So overall quality on all of these is spectacular. I also think that the majority of these are unique-ish to her line. Of course, I was able to kind of find similarities between all of the shades. But with the exception of Copper Charge, the three that I compared them to were all limited edition of the bigger palettes. Within her own permanent line, I actually didn't see very many dupes. So that is what makes them worth purchasing for. Copper Charge is really the only one that so easily can be duped with all of her other permanent shadows. But the other three are quite unique and I definitely think they're worth a purchase or at least looking into. As far as my favorite one, I have to give it to Mesmerizing Maroon. If you like more plummy, mauve-y kind of shades, you are going to love this one. I also really enjoy green lights a lot just because I'm really into those khaki kind of shades right now. If you're looking for something a little bit more different, probably the most unique in this line. Super blue is really awesome and it's a really great way to add blues to your collection that you know are going to be good quality because sometimes blues are so hard to work with. This is a great quality navy and I don't want to poop on Copper Charge. Like it is a really good pretty palette. It's just not the most necessary in my opinion. And then of course a huge thumbs up to the liner. That is all I have for today's video. I hope you found it helpful. Let me know which palettes you picked up and for what reason. I'm very curious because there's four and obviously these aren't the least expensive palettes. So I know a lot of you were talking to me about picking and choosing which one you think would be best for you. And I want to know what you guys ended up with. So that is all I have for today's video. Thank you guys so much for watching. If you are not yet subscribed to my channel, I hope you take the time to do so. And I will see you guys in the next one. Bye guys. Have a good one.


Nigerian senators from the People's Democratic Party have said they will begin impeachment proceedings against the President Muhammad Abu Hari. We will look at the reasons behind this and its possibility. Niger's currency denier has fallen to record lows against the US dollar. Why is a once booming economy struggling? We're joined by an expert later for analysis on this. And of course we'll have end-of-the-analysis of the headlines in today's National Dailies. Welcome and very good morning to you. I apologize for bringing the program behind the shadow. My name is Kofi Bartels. We start with a top trending segment where the Social Economic Rights Accountability Project, a non-governmental organization, or civil society organization has said they will sue, as I've actually said they will sue, a government in Manor or Dome of Acquired Boom State over the treatment, the detention of human rights lawyer in Iber Effiong. Iber Effiong released a video shared on social media and of course some tweets that he put out yesterday that brought attention to his plight. There's been a case going on between the governor of Acquired Boom State in Manor or Dome and of course a lawyer in Acquired Boom State who goes by the name Mr. Leo Ekpeong. The governor had won a 1.5 billion Naira lawsuit against this lawyer for defamation. Iber Effiong was simply defending the lawyer in court. So he put out a detailed account of what went, what transpired in court, some issues raised by the human rights lawyer. He said that when he got to court he noticed that his lordship, the judge, the trial judge, Judge Akaito Boat in this case had walked into the court and had allowed a permitted armed policemen to access the court, get into the court room and this was what made him uncomfortable. Now you're looking at pictures of the trial judge, Akaito Boat. Now, Akaito Boat happens to be also the chief judge of Acquired Boom State, sworn in by the governor of Acquired Boom State himself, Governor Imano Udo. Now another thing that Iber Effiong reported in his tweets is that the trial judge, Akaito Boat, who is also the chief judge of Acquired Boom State, ordered a reporter who had come into the court room to observe proceedings and of course report on it, a reporter of the premium Times newspaper, shielded him to leave the court room. And Iber Effiong also said he didn't see, he found that wrong, even though the reporter identified himself as working with a newspaper and online media called Premium Times, the judge ordered that he should leave now. Iber Effiong said he made to object to the presence of the armed policemen in court telling the judge that this was against normal practice and that she should please order, her lordship should order, his lordship should order the armed policemen to leave the premises. However, however, according to him in the video he recorded and also a series of tweets that he put out, he said that the judge did not find that flattering at all. He also reminded the judge that he had applied for her to recuse herself from the case, citing a suspicion or a feeling by his client, Leo Ekpeyong, that the judge was biased in this case and that pending the determination or the decision on that application for a recusal, that she wasn't meant to be there. And so he also reminded her that she was meant to recuse herself, what he called willingly withdrawn from the case. And she also did not find this flattering at all and ordered Iber Effiong to remove his robe and to also order the policeman there to take him away and sentence him to one month in prison. Now, some points to note, what is a recusal? A recusal is basically an application for a judge who is sitting on a matap to withdraw from that matap. And I was speaking to a couple of lawyers since this news broke yesterday and what they tell me is that most judges would voluntarily withdraw from matters if the funeral party is not comfortable with them sitting on that matap. Of course, the judges are saddled and overwhelmed at times with cases, so the less the merrier you would say. So some lawyers have spoken to say what happens is that when this application for a recusal is made, I mean the application goes to the table of the chief judge of a state. Of course, it is the head of the state judiciary that assigns the case files to the different judges or to the different courts because each judge has his court, all right, each judge has his court. So in this case, it was my lord, the honorable chief judge of a criminal state, Justice Akaito Wood, who assigned this case to herself. Some would say if there is nothing personal for you, nothing sentimental for you with this particular case, then maybe you should not have any problem handing the case file to another judge. After all, all the judges of the Acquire Boom State High Court are competently qualified to handle this particular case, any case for that matter. If you have any doubts over the credibility, the thickness of any judge in handling any case in Acquire Boom State from the Acquire Boom State judiciary, then they should not be in service. They should not be having a job as a judge for that matter because as a judge, you have the lives there in your hands. The future, the present and the future of a state and of a country is in your hand. So some people feel that if there was nothing sentimental or nothing personal for the judge, in this case, a chief judge, she could assign this case to some other person, not to herself. Some also say, you know, some of the view that because she was sworn in by the governor of the state and because she is paid a salary by the governor of the state, she has to get that money and then administer judiciary in the state that maybe there is a, there could be possibilities of conflict of interest here. I mean, this is not on our part here at Plus TV Africa to doubt the credibility of her lordship or his lordship, the Honorable Justice Akaitabut, who is the chief judge of Acquire Boom State. That's what some people out there are discussing and are saying and that's what we bring to you on the top training set. Now, apart from this refusal to recuse by the application and refusal to recuse, the trial judge, who incidentally is the chief judge of Acquire Boom State, ordered the premium times reporter to leave the courtroom. Now, this was before the premium times, the arrest and detention of Ineba Effing, the human rights lawyer. We're told yesterday from our sources in New York that this premium times reporter was detained briefly, was arrested and detained briefly on the orders of the judge. We're not given any reason why she asked for, you know, his arrest, his ejection, arrest and detention. We're not given any reason why she also ordered the arrest and imprisonment of Ineba Effing, the human rights lawyer. But what we know is that the premium times has given this particular story coverage and priority. I mean, if you want to check, you know, we ought to go back in time to the case last year when the trial judge, my lord, the Honorable Justice Akaitabut, who is also the chief judge of Acquire Boom State, where she said to the Ineba Effing quote, you know, well, this is not quoting us or not, I take back the quote, where she said to him, you are not on channels, television, neither you on Acquire Boom State Broadcasting Corporation. She scolded him for the way he was talking and told him that I have more than 30 years of experience doing this job, you can't come and teach me law is what she said to him. Also, when they had a resumed hearing on the 2nd of July, 2022, the trial judge, my lord, the Honorable Justice Akaitabut, threatened to imprison, to derail and imprison Ineba Effing. She actually made this threat on the 2nd of July, 2022. So for some who have been following the case, this was simply and merely a predetermined action, all right, this was simply her carrying out this threat that she had already issued on the 2nd of July. And some suspect that maybe the reporter was asked to leave the court so that the further proceedings will not be covered. Now on this 2nd of July, 2022, where she threatened to derail and arrest and imprison Ineba Effing, this particular premium time supporter wrote a story on it and said that there was a series of bizarre incidents in the court, including the judge asking Akaitabut, my lord, the Honorable Justice Akaitabut, asking everybody present at the court to hand over their phones to the police because she didn't want anyone to record the proceedings of that day. So this is what's been happening. We hear that Ineba is still in court. The Uyo prison initially refused to accept him because they didn't see any documents indicating that he went to court. He was sentenced so that they could process his imprisonment, but later he was accepted and he has been placed in prison, in prison as we speak. The report of premium times has since been released and allowed to go home. And this is what we have in Nigeria today. It's not about PDP or APC. You can see that even though it's the country's same judiciary, in a crime of state, you have a PDP government. It's not saying the government is guilty of anything, but in case people want to look at the political side of things, some will say they're all the same. Some are misdemeanors, if you will. Let's move on. Let's move on to the next trending story. Take one more before we say goodbye and move on to other things on the program this morning. Quite some very sad and disheartening news. We heard yesterday the passing of a diplomat, a very respected and foremost Nigerian diplomat. Some would call him an elder statesman, for when I saw the story my heart jumped and it still jumped when I discovered who it was. The first thing I said was, whoa, is this someone else? We have a leading Niger Delta elder statesman, but it wasn't him. It was Ambassador Blessing Agporo de Clark, still it's a sad one, who died at the age of 92 in Lagos. Ambassador Blessing Agporo de Clark is a foremost diplomat. He is the younger brother of the leader of the Niger Delta Forum, Niger Delta activist and elder statesman, and the former federal commissioner of information and South-South leader, Chief Edwin Kiabodo-Clack. He's the younger brother of Chief Edwin Kiabodo-Clack, he died at the age of 92 in Lagos. So rest in peace. There was a statement released on the passing of this gentleman by Dr. Christopher Clark on behalf of the family, and it highlighted his sterling career as a diplomat in service to his motherland, Nigeria, for those who do not know. Ambassador Blessing Agporo de Clark, C-O-N, was Nigeria's ambassador to Ethiopia and permanent representative to the Organization of African Unity, which is what the African Union was known back in the days of the likes of Butrus Kali. Ambassador Clark was also Nigeria's ambassador to Switzerland and permanent representative of Nigeria to the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland. He was Nigerian ambassador and permanent representative to the United Nations in New York. These are positions in the foreign service you hold, only if you are qualified, because these are the highest of the lot. So the family has released information as officially to the public. On behalf of the Beke Deremo Fuludu-Clack family of Kiabodo town in Brutu, local government area of Delta State, they have officially announced with profound sadness the passing into glory of Nigeria's foremost diplomat, Ambassador Blessing Agporo de Clark, C-O-N, on the 26th of July 2022 in Lingers. He was 92 May, so rest in peace. Okay, that's the much you'll take on the top trending segment, we'll return with analysis of our new super headlines, energy for you, please stay with us.


Hey Betty! This is Megan with Oxmore Toyota. I just wanted to send this quick video greeting just to personally introduce myself. It has come to my attention through Toyota.com that you're in the market for a new 2016 Toyota Avalon. I will be calling you here shortly to discuss a good time for you to come out. If you do have any questions in the meantime, you can either reply to this email or contact me at<PHONE_NUMBER>. And have a great day! Bye!


We have a women's network and a couple of us decided that we wanted to put together a running team because it just looked like a bit of fun. It's been really good to be training with Piercedale. We have no idea or we had no idea how to do any of the events. They've been really accommodating, really helpful and they've taught us hate. I found training with Piercedale has been very enlightening, learning how to work as a team, watching how they work together has been marvellous and it's just really a friendly brigade and it's been very enlightening in the things that we learn.


What's up everybody? Jason here for Jasper's Case Breaks.com. So that was the 19-20 Panini Obsidian basketball two box break, two random teams each, and number six just sold out. These are the last two boxes of the case. So here you go. As you can see, Nick has already posted up number seven. All spots are in. That's gonna be from our fresh case, but this is break number six, and again two random teams each, all teams in. So let's roll the dice, and this is a two and a one three times. So there you go. One two three Rodney, done a Chris. One two three T-wolves down to the Pelicans. Rodney with the T-wolves, Chris with the Thunder, Kim with the Hawks, Willem with the Spurs, Albert. You have the Grizzlies, Brent with the Wizards, Chris with the Raptors, Robert with the Blazers, Albert with the Nets, Brent with the Warriors, Rodney with the Bucks, Albert with the Cavs, Robert with the Pistons, Kimmy at the Lakers, Chris with the Rockets, Albert with the Clippers, Willem with the Nuggets, Robert with the Knicks, Kim with the Bulls, Robert with the Hornets Pacers, Albert with the Heat, 76ers Magic Kings, Robert with the Solstice, Kim with the Suns, Albert with the Jazz, Mavericks, and Chris. You have the Pelicans. So there you go. Any trades, let me know. If not, I'm gonna start. Alrighty, I don't think anybody wants to trade. I lost two boxes and these are the little lines that we put on through them. Oh, no more paper. There you go. Good luck. All right, we got a Jerick Holver and Darius Basley. Clay Thompson, and we have a Goga Pitazze with a Anthony Davis. That is a 19 out of 50. For the Indiana Pacers, that's going to Robert. Kim with the Lakers. Number 15 out of 25. We got an autograph here of Calvin Murphy. Number 31 out of 40. And we got ourselves to 99. Queen Derry Weatherspoon. Spurs, by the way. I'm not sure of our city. You can ask you can ask Sean who's breaking it. I don't know if they're all graded or in one touches to be honest, but I'm pretty sure they are. Unless it's probably a lower tier. Lower tier hit, like the $15 hit, that might not be in a one touch. But who knows? Ask him. Rudy Gay, 10 out of 75. We got Mantra's Herald. Eight out of 25. We got a nice three color patch in Otto Porter Jr. There you go, 12 out of 25. Bulls, going to Kim. And then we got to 49. DeAngelo Russell, that's for the T-Wolves. Still has that Warriors patch in there, but 29 out of 49. DeAngelo Russell T-Wolves edition. Going to Robbie. And there you go, guys, just like that. That is the quick two box break of Obsidian basketball. So next break, guys, of the two box break. You'll be from Refreshcase, jaspyscasebricks.com.


Become a better listener and you'll be able to design services that are more inclusive to less harm and are better for business. But how? Well, that's exactly what the book titled Time to Listen is all about and you'll get the key highlights from the author herself in this episode. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi everyone, it's Indy Young and this is the service design show number 165. Hi, my name is Marc Fontaine and welcome back to the service design show. On this show we explore what's beneath the surface of service design and what are those hidden and invisible things that make all the difference between success and failure. All to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet. Our guest in this episode is Indy Young. Indy is a researcher who teaches, writes and coaches about inclusive product strategy. Amongst many things Indy has pioneered, opportunity maps, mental model diagrams and thinking styles. If you're like most service design professionals, you already know the value qualitative data can bring to business. But often, qualitative data is still seen as less valid or as less credible. It's not seen as a useful tool to inform strategy. In our latest book Time to Listen, Indy provides a much needed process and framework to overcome this limiting belief, helping you to make smarter decisions and also design services that are more inclusive and less harmful without sacrificing business value. If anything, your services will become more profitable. As you might have guessed by the title of the book, this secret lies in becoming a better listener. In this episode we explore what that means for you as a professional. How do you actually do that? Is this something anyone can learn or is this a born talent? You'll hear us talk a lot about how to set up and structure listening sessions. But it is important to note that this interview in itself is not a listening session. There is a big difference in the dynamic between the two and you'll discover why throughout this conversation. By the end of this episode, you should have a good idea how you can turn open and honest conversations with your users into nothing less than one of your most valuable business assets. If you're interested in reading Indy's book, make sure to stick around till the end of the episode because we announce a contest where you can win a special edition of the book. If you enjoy conversations like this that help you to grow as a service design professional, make sure you click that subscribe button and of course that bell icon to be notified when a new episode comes out. That about wraps it up for the introduction and now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Indy Yang. Welcome back to the show Indy. Thank you so much Mark, it's a pleasure to be back. It was episode 130, so 35 episodes ago that you were on and then we already talked about the book which we're going to dive in today but the book wasn't out there then yet it was July 2021 I think. Oh wow, so the book didn't come out until July 2022. Well. But it is now in physical form. Yeah, there it is. And I would love to dive into what eventually got into the book what got published what got censored and what has been taken into part two. But Indy before we can do that. Maybe some people haven't listened to episode 130 yet and have no 35. Oh 30. Yeah, we're at 165 right now. But they would like to know, okay, who is Indy and why is she on the show so could you maybe give a brief introduction. Yes, certainly. So I am an inclusivity researcher. This is the way that I've been managing to help people recognize that the that the cycles of research that we're doing in our orgs generally don't hit the inclusivity. Side of things. So that's what I'm doing is I'm out in the world trying to help everybody get to that point I'm giving lots of methods and if you follow me on LinkedIn, or Twitter or Instagram. And now mastodon but I have not figured that out yet. But I have a lot of helpful stuff out there, a lot of helpful stuff on my website. My whole goal is to try to help people, you know, pick up what skills that they want, figure out how to adapt those skills to the situation they're in and figure out how to, you know, help each other and listen. Awesome. Great. We have five question lightning round to get to know you a little bit better. I haven't checked which questions I asked you previously, but I think these one will be different. And if they are the same, then we'll be able to check if anything changed since the last time. So five questions for you. Please answer them as briefly and as quickly as possible. The first thing that comes to your mind. Ready. Ready. I do remember one of the old questions. So we'll see if you ask it again. We'll see. We'll see. The first one should be easy. Is there a book that you are currently reading? And if so, which one is it? Rating sweet grass by Robin Wall, camera. Okay. Interesting. We'll add a link in the show notes as always. Another question is what was your first job? Do you mean going all the way back to teenagers? And your professional job. So like, what was your unofficial job and your first professional? My first professional job was as a software designer at a. I can't even remember the name of the field, but it was. It was working on space. Well, stuff that goes into space and orbits the earth. Sounds like a satellite. Yeah. There we go. Thank you. It's a little early. I haven't booted up my mind. What is that word? And what was your teenage job? That that was just doing odd jobs for people around. We lived in a country kind of neighborhood and I would wash windows. I would, you know, clean gardens. I would clean houses. And my favorite part of it was where one of the neighbors hired me to clean the garden a couple of times and they had this giant vacuum. It was awesome. You could vacuum up the leaves. The pleasure of having a giant vacuum. All right. I'll take that one. We have to move on. This is a new question. So I definitely haven't asked that one before. What is your favorite meal? Your favorite food. Well, okay. I can answer the second part of that meal. I can't answer a favorite food. Chocolate. Chocolate. Okay. Yeah. I eat at least two ounces a day. Good for you. With a sip of wine would be helpful. Please. Let's talk about location. If you could work from anywhere in the world, where would you like to work from? I have worked from a lot of different places in the world and it actually doesn't make a difference. And in fact, when I was working from the big island, it was actually annoying to look out the window and see the palm trees and recognize how gorgeous it was outside. And I was still stuck inside. Yeah. I can imagine. I can imagine. Makes sense. And the last question I have to ask it because as a tradition, do you recall the first time you heard about the gun and touch with service design? You know, I think it was either Kim or it was one of my peers. And she was, I think, either in the UK or in the Netherlands. I think it was the UK and she's like service design, everything's service design here, but it's the same thing. Nice. Nice. Thank you for sharing these answers. Now we know a bit more about who you are and not just a professional, like we're trying to get a broader perspective on the guests on the show. So thank you, Indy. And now let's talk about the book. I had to write down the title. It's called Time to Listen. How giving people space to speak drives invention and inclusion. Yeah. I can never remember the subtitles of my books. Never. I always have to look them up. Time to listen. I can remember. Time to listen. Let's start with that because that's always an interesting story. The title. Like what's with the title? Well, I did a lot of social media. In, you know, sort of discussions with a lot of people and through a lot of different titles out there. And a lot of people, a lot of the ways that I was coming at it sounded too much. I was working with an editor who wanted to write a business book and everybody on social media was saying, that sounds like an airport book, but I don't want to read it. So I'm like, okay, we have to get something for less airport bookie. And the idea of time came into it. Listen always had to be in the title. The course that is the twin to this is called listening deeply. And I was just going to call the book the same thing. But the idea of time was really important. One, you can take it in two ways. One is that. We. It's hard to get time. It's also hard to keep track of time these days. What day is the week? Is it quick? Right? You have to think about it and dealing with time after the pandemic has also been a really interesting. Sort of thing that a lot of people are talking and writing about. And so time became like a part of it. In terms of. How do we make time for this? How do we take the time? To fit this in. I've always been talking about it in terms of, you know, it doesn't fit in your normal cycles. It is not a part of the agile cycle. It is not a part of any of your solution space cycles. It is separate. And therefore it takes a separate kind of time. And so I thought, okay, let's put time in there because time also means an imperative. Hey, it's time. We have gotten to this point where we have harmed a lot of people with the services we're creating. In ways that we don't even recognize. So I've had circulating on social media and I've talked about it in a bunch of talks. This first draft idea of talking about harms in different levels. Where we've got harms at the mild level, which is frustration and confusion and things like that. And that's, yeah, organizations understand that that can be a problem and they will look into that and try to fix it. But serious harms like being triggered, like, you know, maybe being interrupted, like feeling unwelcome. Like feeling as if you were not the type of person that they want here. That's serious harm and we're doing it. There's also something beyond that called lasting harm. And something beyond that called systemic harm, which is where it's gotten baked into our laws and our culture and stuff like that. So the imperative, it's time. It's time now. We've done enough harm. We need to face, like investigate, see, understand, dig into one of those verbs.  I have many, many, many examples. So we could talk about that. There's also a lot of books that talk about the harms. For instance, Kat Holmes has written mismatch, which is this idea that, you know, a disabled person is not disabled. They are a whole person. They're only disabled by society. Society looks at them as disabled. And the way that we talk about it, the way that we support them is still quite harmful in a lot of ways. There's progress being made. So that's a really good example. There are a lot of other books and I talk about them in my presentations. You can go on my website and watch one of the presentations and see that screen and go and read those books. I'm not going to write a book about that. That's not my expertise. My expertise is understanding, is finding out, is developing a deep understanding based on patterns that are verifiable, that are repeatable, that any two researchers can find the same patterns and paying attention to that so that we can then start measuring, you know, is this thinking style being supported? Is that thinking style being harmed? What can we do? Where do we want to focus next? There's always going to be like, you know, 13 different areas you could focus and you can't do them all now. You can't do them even next year. It's something that takes years to get through, but you need a map. You need some sort of way to understand, okay, here are all the holes. Here are the gaps. And where do we want to focus first and why? And how do we do the best? The best good for the most people, not in terms of writing one service for all of them, creating one service for all of them, creating different services with different nuances. Awesome. That was an interesting explanation of the title and I feel that we have so many hooks to go into. You mentioned a few times I'm going to reference some elements that you mentioned. You mentioned a few times it's time for this and I could fill in the blank what this is, maybe listening, but what is this to you? What is it time for? It's time for listening. It's time for doing all these things. It's time to pay attention to the harms. That's what I'm saying. And I think we've got a little bit of a wave, even partially globally, in terms of, hey, it is important to stop harming. We've got a wave for sure. It is important to stop harming our planet. It is important to stop harming ecosystems. It's important to stop harming people as well. And there was something I put out in the U.S. we have this day after Thanksgiving where apparently everybody goes shopping for Christmas. I've never done it. I don't know if it still exists or if it's just a dream of the marketers, but they call it Black Friday. Not because something horrible has happened. And, you know, it's dismal and that kind of interpretation of it. Also that word, using the word black is like, is that calling into effect the race and like subjugating that word, but oddly, the title Black Friday actually refers to the idea that the vendors, the commercial vendors who are selling all this stuff are finally in the black. They're not in the red. So they're not, they've not sold enough stuff until the day after Thanksgiving, which is towards the end of November. So I'm like, okay, what kind of business model is that? But okay, all that aside. Anyway, so I put a tweet or a post out on Black Friday. I'm like, hey, you know, a lot of online vendors say, hey, you can have free shipping. If you meet this number, like criteria of how much you spend, right? Which when I'm reading Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, she's talking about Indigenous American worldviews. And one of the worldviews is that we've become a very consumption oriented society, especially in the U.S. There are pockets that don't for sure, but it seems to be like the milieu of the U.S. is to like go out and shop. And you don't need those things. And by having, by recognizing that what we're doing, if we're providing, you know, goods or even services, but probably goods that we're going to have to ship physically and we're saying, hey, buy just a little bit more and we'll give you free shipping. That's encouraging over consumption. And I got some people like going, yeah, oh yeah, I see that. And other people are like, well, how's my business going to make a profit? I'm like, yeah, that's exactly the question. We have to rethink this. You shared a lot of things and I'm curious, who did you have in mind when you were writing this book? Like, who was your ideal reader? Did you have one? I had a couple. One ideal reader is a product manager or product strategist. I'm assuming that there's the equivalent title and service side of things. We just, on this side of the Atlantic, we tend to say product instead of service to me. I like to say solution because then that sort of encompasses everything. Anything you're doing to support somebody. And the people who are in charge of the strategy or in charge of the management of one of those parts of the things that you're creating was one of my key audiences. The other key audience is the people who are actually doing the research. And another key audience, especially for the beginning of the book, because I talk about how we're looking at understanding people. We're looking at building knowledge from the lens of our solution. And that limits the kind of knowledge that we're building. And it limits the kind of decisions that we make. And so I would like people to hire up in an organization to become aware of that. So that was a sort of tertiary audience. It's like, hey, let's frame our knowledge building by the person's purpose, not by our solution. But what is the person trying to address? And that purpose can be big or small or long term or short term. But let's look at it from that point of view. And that gives us, it takes away the lens of our solution and allows us to see really what that person is trying to get from, not just what they were trying to get done with relationship to our solution. How do you hope, maybe you've already got some feedback, how do you hope it will impact the practice of these product managers, service managers, solutions managers? I hope that, so some of the other work I'm doing, we're doing a workshop or mid-January about persuading your stakeholders. So some of the other work I'm doing is around positioning this in your world, getting budget for it, making it a priority, learning how to talk about it as something that should be a priority within your organization. And that's something that I hope eventually, I don't think it's going to happen right away, but especially if we can get people in positions of power and people who are coming in brand new to this, understanding the mindset of looking at people in terms of their purpose. A lot of this knowledge, a lot of the mixed methods, a lot of the ways that we do our product roadmap or service roadmap are going to shift. They're going to shift a little bit so that we're more inclusive, so that in the end, what we're doing is we're creating solutions that support, that don't harm a variety of thinking styles. A whole bunch of various approaches. Not just one approach, not just the thinking style that your team thinks is the main thinking style. Often this is just an assumption. How many scenarios and product roadmaps have you seen out there, especially scenarios where there's a character, but the character is not identified. Even if you have personas, they're not identified as one persona or another, it's just the character. And then it becomes like the average user. And that's the big thing that I want to shift. I want lots of different solutions out there that support the variety of thinking styles and variety of approaches to a person's purpose. This is where we're going to be able to address the harms that we're doing. Yeah, so the question that I also had around this, is that the problem with our current approach that it is, for lack of a better word, a lazy approach like going for the average user, I don't know. I don't think, yeah, for lack of a better, yeah, lazy is not the word for sure. We're learning. We're building this, right? I expect when I finally get to retire, more people are going to build it further. And then they're the next generation after them, they're going to build it further. We're still figuring this out. I think this goes for civic design as well. We're still figuring out how to do it better. We've got this technology. At first, the technologists are all like, ooh, technology can solve everything. And they don't have the human component involved. They also don't have the non-human people component involved. And it's slowly something that we're finally addressing. And I think it'll become a part of the way that we do things in the next 20, 50 years. And then the next 50 years after that, I mean, it's always going to evolve. We're going to get better if we're all still around. I would love to go in a bit deeper on like this part. So you mentioned that we have to make time for this because it falls outside of the agile cycle, the productivity. And then like, what is it that we actually need to do? And I guess that's what the book is about. What do we need to do? Yeah. What do we need to do? There are cute little sketch, cartoony diagrams of all the steps of what we need to do. We need a strategy space, first of all. There is strategy, but it tends to only be discussed among certain people at your organization. And there's more knowledge that can be built into the strategy that allows us to have a better, more inclusive strategy. So we need a strategy space, but to understand where to take that strategy or what to base it on, we need a problem space. And in the problem space, that's where we're looking at the person once, you know, once a year, once every other year, we're building some knowledge. We're picking a purpose. It might be some part of the purpose that our organization is interested in supporting, or it could be a slightly larger purpose. I talk a lot about how purposes come at different levels of granularity and what that means for the way that you build knowledge. I have a chapter in there about how to figure out. I also teach a course that gets into a lot more depth than the book on how to figure out how to, what knowledge you need and how to frame the way that you're going to build that knowledge that you need right now. And how to make sure you're not building knowledge that you don't need right now. Erica Hall has a book called Just Enough Research. That's a great title. You don't want to do research for research's sake. You want to do research to build knowledge that you need. And I'm saying the knowledge that we need is this, we need to build a better strategy that's more informed by what people are trying to address, rather than a strategy that's just, you know, let's take this piece of tech and make it into something people can use. You don't know how many people I have talked to. They're like, oh yeah, my manager told me to build a chat bot for that, right? Yeah. So stop being technology driven. But that, you know, that's painting technology in a bad light. And technology, it can be very helpful to humanity. But it is not right now helpful to all of humanity and is quite harmful to a lot of humanity. So this deeper knowledge and problem space is trying to understand first of all, what knowledge do we need? How are we going to frame it? We're going to frame it by a person's purpose. We're going to frame evaluative studies. We're going to frame generative studies. We're going to frame problem space studies by a person's purpose so that when we've got it in the strategy space, we can layer it all together on the same skeleton. It's easy. It's easy to see how it fits together because you're talking about a purpose or some sort of sub purpose. So that's the first step, the second step. Yeah, yeah, I will get, I hope we'll get into the second step because the second step is listening. Can you maybe color this first step with an example or a story so we need more strategy space and like, what does it look like? What does better look like in this case? Yeah, okay, so here's a good story. In, there was a big company that in, they were building their own towers, office towers downtown and then the pandemic hit. And then the office towers ended up getting finished and they wanted everybody to go back to the office towers in 2021 and not everybody was ready to do that. But that wasn't the only thing that was happening. They were losing people. People were doing this great resignation thing. They're like, oh yeah, if you look at the big data, it's just like, oh yeah, a lot of people are resigning now. Maybe they're being lazy or maybe they've decided to change careers. I don't know what they're guessing from the big data. But what we did was some knowledge building. What's going on? What's going through people's minds? Is it because they're being asked to come into this fancy new building downtown or is it something else? And it turns out after we did a whole bunch of listening sessions and this, I was just helping to guide the team. This was done by a lot of research team within the organization and headed up. The person who was helping define what knowledge we needed was one of the heads of HR. So the idea was, what goes through people's minds is they're considering the situation and maybe thinking about leaving. So we, the team listened to people who were in that situation and what came out of it was a bunch of things that weren't necessarily the things that you would have guessed. One was, hey, I took this job because I was promised X and Y and sure the pandemic came along and we're stringing me along, but it's been two years, two and a half years, maybe three years because I joined a while before the pandemic and I still haven't gotten X or Y in this job. I'm tired, I'm going to give up. This is not the job I want. So that's one of the findings. And as HR, how do you support that? There's ways to support that, right? There was another thinking style that was about, you know, things are really rocky right now and I've been seeing people actually getting laid off within this organization and then I see other people just leaving and I'm worried about my own job and I desperately need this job. So I'm going to, you know, sort of hunker down at my desk and work really hard and hope that that work and my, you know, value to the company is considered when they think about laying me off. Okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, can I? Yeah, there's a couple more I could talk about, but as you can see, it's like for each one of those, for the person who's like, I didn't get X and Y or I'm going to hunker down and just like hope that people notice HR can do stuff. And it's different. HR can do stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's different stuff, yeah. You mentioned something really briefly, which I think is key to the entire story. And I can imagine that you sort of are so used to it that it's easy to overlook, but you mentioned, yeah, yeah, then they just listen to these people. We went into a listening session and then all this came out. Like if it was that easy, like everybody would be doing it. So what kind of magic happens in that short brief sentence? They just listen. Yeah, that's the whole reason for the book, right? When you listen in ordinary life, we're typically thinking. And when we're thinking, our cognition, our brain is full of our own thoughts and we miss what the other person is saying, or we miss parts of it. We maybe hear some keywords that make us think some other thoughts. So basically what I'm training people to do. And this is something that you can do like half asked at first and still get some pretty good knowledge out of the listening sessions. And then as you get better at it, things will get even deeper. So there's a way to measure it, but let me talk about listening first. Listening is all about building a sensor. Building a sensor in your mind for a couple of things so that you can pay rapt attention to that person so that you're really aware of everything that they're saying, what the subtexts are, what the connections, you know, like they said that word before and now they're saying this word again, but it's slightly different. What does it mean? That kind of thing, but you're not thinking about it. You're just noticing it's just a sensor. And the sensor is after a couple of things. One is, are we getting to their interior cognition? Okay, now to ask that question, I have to talk about these two other things. One is purpose, right? We actually come at these listening sessions with one germinal question, which is what went through your mind as you addressed that purpose in the past? We are not talking about your current in session cognition. We want memory mode. We want someone talking about their cognition from the past because it's really hard and awkward and leads to a bunch of circuitous, like I didn't really mean that, but I'll say it this way because I think that's what they want me to say, kind of stuff, right? So in the past, what was your interior cognition? The second thing is that we do not have a list of questions. We do not have a list. So list of questions makes some people freak out. I'm like, fine, write down some list of questions, but don't bring up any topics that they haven't brought up. Okay, that's the easier way. And that's like, oh, okay, fine. I have this list of questions for the just-in-case net, like I fall off the trapeze, right? But I'm just going to follow up on all the topics that they bring up, just like you're doing right now. Except you're doing it with the idea of informing your audience as opposed to getting to interior cognition. So that takes us back to interior cognition. Interior cognition is interthinking emotional reactions and guiding principles that went through somebody's mind in the past as they were addressing that purpose or some part of the purpose that to them is related to that purpose. Okay, so this allows us to hear about things that we didn't realize we needed to ask about. Yeah, and so the idea of interior cognition is that we are trying to develop cognitive empathy. Cognitive empathy is understanding somebody's inner thinking, emotional reactions, and guiding principles that went through their mind in the past. I frame it in the past because it's just so much easier for a person to talk about their interior cognition that way. So cognitive empathy is scalable. Cognitive empathy, if you ask 10 people, if you ask 20 people the same germinal question what went through your mind as you were addressing this purpose in the past, you're going to find patterns. So that's the way that we get empathy. Cognitive empathy, a very specific kind of empathy that's scalable in our org. That's the way that we can find patterns across a bunch of different people. So I did a bunch of listening sessions about what went through people's minds in a near-miss accident. Okay, this was interesting because everybody's near-miss accident was in a totally different context, right? Some people were in the swimming pool. Some people were in a car. Some people were about to go into the Twin Towers before it got bombed. There was a lot of... Some people were in Kiev when it got bombed by Russia. This is a lot of near-miss accidents. And you would think, how am I going to find patterns across those stories because they're very different? And the patterns come from the focus of mental attention. So that's the idea that when you're in a near-miss accident, there's the part of it where you're like, how do I get out of this safely? And there's also a part of it that's like, did anybody else get hurt? Can I help anybody? There's the part of it where you're maybe angry at the other person for causing this or for being irresponsible. Not everybody is going to think that, but there are focuses of mental attention that become the patterns. We don't know them in the beginning, but we find them from the bottom up. So this is abductive data synthesis, abductive research, not deductive research, where we come into it with a hypothesis. What we're doing is we're creating a load of information in that strategy space that we can start using in our solution space, and that's where we can start making some deductive hypothesis and start testing them. So many things to double-click on and to Google further, but I'll pick one. As you see, I'm sort of ripping the entire story apart, trying to be very selfish and learn more here. You mentioned patterns a few times, like patterns emerge and it's abductive. I totally get that. A question that might arise here is why does it matter? So you have these patterns. I'll ask two questions, and then it's up to you in which order you want to ask them. So why do these patterns matter? And the patterns that you might find might be different than I will find, or are they? This is like a layup. Yeah, exactly. That's a leading question because you and I know. This, okay, so why do the patterns matter? The patterns matter because with both quantitative and qualitative data, there's an empirical end of it where it's verifiably observed. Multiple different people will be able to see that. They'll be able to reproduce it. There's also a subjective end to both quantitative and qualitative where it's just a one-off. With qualitative, this happens a lot. You'll go, you'll do interviews, and you'll take one of those stories, or you'll make a story that come from like two or three people and use that story to get attention from your stakeholders. Okay, that's what we're doing. But that's not a pattern. It might be a pattern, but we don't know. There's this idea of like, oh, let's go out and listen to somebody once a week. But if you don't frame it by the same purpose, if you frame it by the solution, you're not going to get patterns and you're going to get, this is the quintessential like, the sales guy went out and this one client wants X feature. And so we'll go make X feature. And it turns out that there's nobody else who wants it or like very few other people who want it except that one client. And maybe that client has a big budget and you want to keep them happy. Okay, there's that as a reason for doing it. But if we don't look at the other ideas out there, the other things that people are trying to get done, we are harming the other people, right? So patterns are super important because otherwise it's just anecdotes, just one-off stories. We're basing our entire organization and strategy on one-off stories. Not a great idea. This is actually how a lot of startups go, you know, try to take off and they just don't, they get to the end of the runway and they crash because they're doing it from their own point of view. So if you take, and I've done this with a lot of startups, if we take some time, time again, right, to go and frame it by a person's purpose, get a whole bunch of stories that then have different focuses of mental attention that have affinity, you're like, oh, here's a pattern. All right, if we have that, then we know, okay, as we're going forward, trying to get off this runway, we're going to focus on just this part and we're going to do a really, really good job on that part. And we're going to support this thinking style for this particular part of the approach and maybe that thinking style too. But maybe just one thinking style to get off the runway and then we're going to start generating some income and we can move to the second thinking style. So that's what, that's why. So the idea of doing, let's see, the second question was the leading one, right? Yeah, so your patterns will be different than mine. So it's still subjective and like, how is that different than an, or more valuable than an anecdote? So it won't, our patterns will be the same because you and I both know what to look for. We're looking for those three things. We're looking for inner thinking, emotional reactions and guiding principles. These are the things that we pull out. So here's a little thing. When you first start, you'll do a listening session and you may end up pulling maybe 35 or 40 of those types of concepts, those three things out of a transcript. When you get really good at it and you're good at the other parts of the book where you're learning how to make sure a person's feeling safe and then you can get 120 concepts out of that same session. So you can get started, you can get concepts at the interior cognition level, the inner thinking, the emotional reactions and the guiding principles. When you're first starting out, it's just going to be fewer of them. And as you start going back through the transcripts or somebody else might be going through the transcripts because you're like, I hate doing that. They're going to say, hey, here's the places where you didn't notice that they were implying something that I call a pull tab. And you didn't pull that tab to get into what that interior cognition was. And so here's a way. So that's one of the other sensors is you're noticing pull tabs. You're noticing when there's something that sort of imply there might be something back in there. And you can ask about it. You can ask about it using a variety of approaches like microreflection or because or, you know, trying to ladder back in history. Like where did that come from? What was your thinking before that that built this? That made this happen?  Those are all in the book. And that helps us get from 35 concepts per transcript to 120. Now, granted, I don't always get up to 120 because sometimes the purpose that is just not. It's not conducive to real richness. And so you have to try really hard and you might get to 60 and that's good. I did a study right at the beginning of the pandemic with founders, entrepreneurs. They're a variety of types of entrepreneurs so that we could understand their thinking styles and so that we could support them better and understand a little bit about where the discrimination is happening. And what was really interesting was given someone who wanted to hear their interior cognition, we went deep. These founders, these entrepreneurs, they have a lot of interior cognition happening and we got to go really deep. Our listening sessions lasted way longer than an hour. We don't stop a listening session ever. It goes until it's done and we've gone through all the topics and the other person is happy. If the other person is starting to feel uncomfortable, then we'll figure out why and we'll stop it. So these are the kinds of sensors that are being built and that's how you can still do this even though you don't have your sensor completely built because you can still get something out of it. I like the metaphor that you had about pulling the tab. I'm going to steal that one from you for sure because here is a tab that I hadn't prepared for but I want to get into. One of the things you mentioned is you have to create a space for someone to share their story and you have to encourage them or guide them or help them in that listening session to express what they want to express. But you also mentioned and you also mentioned that when you get a transcript you're also able to extract some of these concepts, right? And then I have a question. Is it true that based on a transcript you're also able to extract some of these concepts? Yeah, it's one in the same basically. You will be trying to help the person unfold their interior cognition. The person as they start realizing that you're really interested in what they have to say and really interested in what they thought, what went through their mind, not their opinions, not their preferences. Those are exterior layer of things. And when they realize they've got somebody who's really interested, it starts building and more and more come out. In the session what you're constantly sensing is like are we at the interior cognition layer? Is there a pull tab? Is there something implied? Is there something that they're bringing back up again? And like wait, why are you mentioning this again, right? You can ask a lot of different questions about it to help them unfold their interior cognition using some of those techniques. And so the idea is that when we go through the transcript they're one in the same. We'll see those interior cognition topics, those concepts that we help them unfold. Okay, we may. So one of the things that happens when we're doing it in real time, things come out tangled. When you and I are talking, we'll maybe talk about two concepts at once or an inner thinking and emotional reaction all tangled up. And when we're looking at it in the transcript, we can untangle it. And that's really powerful because we can start to see it more clearly. We can also see, oh, you know, if I had only asked it this way or said this or noticed that they were like trying not to answer this question, then I would have done a better job.  The output of your conversation will be judged by the quality of how well you can listen, how well you can notice, how well you can recognize these steps and again, help somebody to express this. Now, I'm curious. Okay, let's say you have an expert listener in these sessions and you capture the result. Have you seen examples where technology steps in and helps us actually to analyze what has been said? Because if they're asking or the listening part is the, I think, maybe who requires the most human skill and being in the moment improvising, that's the hardest sort of to duplicate, maybe. The second part seems to be more deductive, more rational, more, I don't know, what's your take on this? Okay, so natural language processing. I would love to partner up with a team who's working at the forefront of natural language processing to build a tool that recognizes inner thinking, that recognizes emotional reaction, that recognizes a guiding principle, which is a personal rule. They are not easy to recognize. Okay, you and me as humans, we can recognize it. Once we know what they are, and we haven't actually gone into examples of what they are, which we might want to do, but once we know what they are, we can recognize it. Natural language processing has more to do with analytical deduction or reduction of words and syllables. So it doesn't recognize that yet. I think it can be trained to. I would like to work with somebody to do that, because we have to do it all by hand right now, and we have to recognize it. I'm super fascinated by this concept because AI and natural language processing, like large language models, the way and the speed at which these things are developing right now, extracting meaning and summarizing pieces of text, it's insane. This is maybe just a way to say that probably the human part of being actual in the conversation, making a connection, giving somebody time and space and attention to share their story, that's maybe the hardest part of this entire process. And then recognizing these concepts that's maybe still hard. It takes the human right now. I actually offer a service because it takes time, and not everybody has time and not everybody likes to do it. But let me tell you, oh, it makes you a better listener. Just if you want to become a better listener, this is the fastest path to becoming a better listener is to go through it and try to pull all those concepts out of a transcript seriously. I teach a really good course on it that's available on my website that I just went through it with a whole bunch of people in live practice and it brought tears to my eyes how well they could recognize these things after taking the course. I would love it if we could get national language processing going that direction. I don't see a lot of grad students or teams who are working, like raising their hands and saying, oh, hey, I want to do this. I had one person who was really interested in it, but I lost track of that person. And I don't think that he had a background in natural language processing, so I'm not sure if he was connected to the teams that were doing that. So if you're out there, Miguel, come back. Or somebody new who's maybe already... Or somebody new. Who's maybe already doing this? I wouldn't be surprised these days. Yeah. I have sort of a few questions to wrap up this conversation. One question that's always on my mind is, what are some of the common pitfalls or common mistakes you see people making when they try to adopt this or maybe, yeah, starting with this? There is one mistake that I see. Otherwise it's all just... You got to set that sensor up. You got to build the sensor. So it's not a mistake. It's just that the sensor isn't quite there yet. We'll build it and work on it and try again. The one thing that I see, though, is people saying to themselves, well, I've done interviews, and if you're going to ask me to do this without a list of questions and not analyze it, but instead synthesize it, then I don't believe you. This should be deductive. Abductive? No. And you're going to make me do this, then I'm going to act like a robot and I'm just going to, like, parrot back what the person says because it looks like that's what you're doing. So what is the thinking model there? I think the thinking model is I reject the ideas of abductive and of synthesis. Just because it's different, because it hasn't been something that a lot of organizations have done. Now, I have worked with a lot of organizations that have gotten a lot of value out of it. True, I've worked with a few startups where they still went off the end of the runway and crashed. But it is incredibly powerful. There was an airline that I worked with and did eight studies one after the other, which was really wonderful because we were able to build a really deep understanding that went beyond just, oh, we're going to support the business traveler because there were a bunch of different thinking styles. And in fact, a business traveler could be a different thinking style when they get on board with their toddler and their family to go see grandma. They're not in business travel thinking mode. And in fact, business travel isn't even the name of the thinking mode. The thinking mode that was most common was be productive and make the most out of this day. So as I'm traveling, I'm going to write the slide deck for whatever presentation I'm going to give or as I'm traveling, I'm going to go through my client list or write the emails that I need. As I'm traveling, I'm going to knit the sweater for my granddaughter who's just been born that I'm going to go visit. As I'm traveling, I'm going to read that book that I promised my friend I would read so I could talk to her about it in book club or whatever. Be productive can take a lot of different ways, right? It doesn't have to be associated with business. Yeah. Yeah. So rejecting synthesis and abductive reasoning. Yeah. I think that that's just the... That's the only way that I've seen people like really, really mess it up. All the other ways are just like, we're trying to make that sensor. And oops, I missed that. Or I got scared and I couldn't think of one of the techniques to say.  You're like, oops.  That's okay. You have to go through it so you can build the sensor. That's not a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. So much to, again, double click upon, but now let's cycle back to the start of our conversation where we started, you know, the book. And I'm always curious, like if you go through the tedious process of sitting down and writing, I don't know how many words. Oh, per day? Well, in general, but did you encounter any new questions? Like while you were writing this, like I would love to figure this out, but we need to write a second book about it. Like was there a new question that sort of emerged for you? Not so much a new question. And there is going to be a second book coming out, which is going to be about thinking styles. So it's not in this book, but it is in the course. It wasn't a question that came up, but it was a little bit of a shift in vocabulary because when you use the word to listen, you imply that you're talking about someone who is not deaf doing this. You're talking about someone who maybe is, you know, listening. You're listening to somebody who's able to talk or even likes to talk. So one of the things that I did is I talked about how that word listen really just means communicate, take in, receive. And you can communicate, not necessarily by audio, but also by texting with somebody, doing a chat session with somebody, doing it written, doing it drawing, doing it over time. So it's not just one big session, but you know, it takes place for five minutes every morning for two weeks or something. So there's a lot. That was the thing that changed with this book was this idea that, you know, it can happen in a lot of ways. I knew this, but I had never said it that way. And so I'm saying it very clearly in this book, hey, choose the method, the medium, how to communicate, how to receive the communications that works for the person that you're listening to. And also that works for you. Listening beyond the ears.  Exactly.  It's really all about connecting your mind to their mind. And that's starting to sound Vulcan, but you know, that's what it is. We're trying, we're trying to get that connection. I used to joke, like if I had a telepathy server, I wouldn't need to do listening sessions because I could just, you know, maybe a telepathy server and a recording. So a person could say, okay, I'm going to turn on the recording of my thoughts as I'm addressing this purpose. And I'm going to turn it off as I'm not addressing it.  And then I'll just go through all that. Right. The listening session is just a way for them to communicate to me how, you know, what inner thinking, what emotional reactions, what guiding principles, what set different things off in the past. Without going into a new rabbit hole. But I would almost say it's not even communicating to you.  And then for anyone who's interested in knowing what is there. Indeed, we really have to sort of find closure in our conversation. But there is one important thing we need to do. And that is a lot of fun because we've been on the show with attention with authors lately. I don't know why, but somehow it happened. And we've been doing a lot of giveaways of books. And we're going to do one here as well. The formula is the same as in the previous episodes. We're going to do a raffle. So you're going to ask us, you're going to give us a challenge. Ask us a question. And people need to respond to the question on this video or audio recording where they are listening. And then in about two weeks, we'll do a raffle amongst the correct answers. And then they will get a special copy of the book. Now the question is what is the question? What is the challenge that people need to... I get to give the challenge. You get to give the challenge, obviously. So as you're building that sensor, what are you listening to? What are you trying to help somebody unfold? And they don't have to have the book to know that. They just have to have listened. Have listened to me for the last 45 minutes. For the last 45 minutes. So leave an answer. And the instructions will be in the show notes how to enter this raffle. Indy, okay, final, final question. If somebody made it all the way here, what do you hope is the one thing that they will take away? I hope one thing that they'll take away is that this is a... This is not a quick fix. And you can come back and revisit this again later. And later and later and come back and keep coming back. I've got a lot of materials on the website. A lot of essays, a lot of recordings, a lot of presentations, a lot of videos. I've got the courses. I've got the books when you start to get into it. This doesn't have to be something you do right away. So that's the long takeaway. It's a long wave, right? It's like the swell at ocean. Take your own time. There's that word time again. That's encouraging and knowing that be prepared. Sort of be mindful of your own expectations, not to get discouraged and quit too soon. Indy, thank you for coming back on the show. I'm happy that the book is out there and that the message is out there. Who knows when we'll complete the trilogy? I'm sure there will be an opportunity for that. But for now, again, thank you for coming on and sharing what's been going on on your end. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you, Mark. I really enjoyed this conversation with Indy and I hope you did as well. And got something useful out of it. If you want to participate in the contents and make chance to win a special edition of Indy's book, read all the details in the show notes. My name is Mark Fontaine. I want to thank you for tuning into the Service Design Show. And I look forward to seeing you in the next video.