Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat, but be warned it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis it's getting even more muddy, which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all the smoking mirrors. In doing so we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose and my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the Cannabis Underground. This is the Revolution. Hello everyone, welcome to the Breeders Syndicate. I am Thousandfold and tonight I'll be your host because unfortunately Matt isn't feeling very well. So we got the youths here. We have bringing back Farmer Dan from the last episode which was quite the hit. If you haven't checked out the episode of Farmer Dan I highly recommend checking it out. We've got Maddie Booze back and we've got local back as well. And tonight we're going to be talking about selection. So we're returning to some of the breeding theory that we started on last season and yeah also want to recommend checking those out. So I think we did four or five episodes on breeding and I've made a little playlist on the channel so you guys can go check that out. I'll put it in the description as well. But yeah so we thought we would this is actually Booze's idea to do one focused more focus on the selection part of breeding. I think for me what's interesting is that you can't really talk about selection without talking about everything else, right? So it's we'll probably go over some of the same concept but from the point of view of selection which I think will make it a little bit different. And yeah hopefully even though it's somewhat theoretical we'll be able to lean on the experience and knowledge of some of these guys and maybe get some like anecdotes or examples as we go on. But yeah I think without further ado we can jump straight into what are you selecting for? And so I guess here with we're thinking about like breeding goals, we're thinking about like trait selection. And perhaps another way of thinking about this is like this is maybe when you are thinking about the genetic material you might have at hand and where you might be taking it. I wonder if Farmer Dan could start us off because I'm kind of curious I mean you know we're kind of fresh from his episode and I kind of want to know like maybe from his work experience you know what is that very initial point of trying to decide like where a project should go? I think with a lot of people's work that it's honestly more like just an exploration originally where they're just like I like these two things I think it would be fire if they go together and it's kind of just more of a mash-up you know what I mean. But like that can still be real breeding if you're like actually do identify some traits that you really like out of there and start selecting for that you know. And so especially when there's like not a lot of new avenues to go down. And so I usually start with something that I like in apparent and so like a popular one right now is rosin and so I like to like really deep dive like why like really get in and see like what's up with this plant's resin you know and like microscope it you have to wash it you have to see how it's breaking off you know and just like really hone in on that one thing you know and that's kind of like how I start is that like I just like find something that I'm really interested in and then I want to learn everything about it before I even start trying to work it you know. I mean I think that's quite an interesting distinction as well like whether you have enough information to even know what you are wanting or looking for. Because it might seem to some people like oh like why are you just growing these out without knowing what you want but it's like how do you know what you want without growing them out. Yeah well and if you think about it a lot of people buy seeds because they don't have access to the clone that they want to grow and so if you can't get skittles you buy a skittles hybrid but you still haven't experienced skittles yet and so you kind of have to grow these and like that's your only experience from it and maybe you do find something you like you know and so like you know what I mean not everyone's like blessed us have this like wide stable plants to work with and like work with them long enough to have like gained experience with it and you know some people have to start from just the first seed packs they buy and so I feel like that's kind of like more common than guys like us that have like you know access to big libraries and stuff if we want it or need it. I don't know local and booze like yeah what do you guys think in terms of like determining goals and you know determining what you're looking for or that what are some of your thoughts. It's a selection sort of paramount to the whole process so the idea I had for this one was not so much selection as you know I've been selecting a particular plant but the whole process throughout like when you even select a packet of seeds to begin with like Dan said you know going with a cultivar you're familiar with or perhaps looking to delve into a line you're not familiar with and find something else out like it really starts right at the start so like right now for instance I'm not staying in the spot I'm out for quite a long time I'm gonna be here for a couple months so for selecting for my outdoor this year I went with shorter flowering things I usually would you know I didn't really plan a breeding project or anything like that just wanted to stick with a couple of things that I'm interested in taking a look at that won't fill up a lot of time but when I'm selecting it's pretty much always based on one primary trait and that's the effect so I think it's interesting having Dan and having local on because it's preference you know it's personal preference when it comes to effect as well and there's a lot of other selection criteria that comes into it that can be like secondary criteria I like to call them you know anything from bokeh so you know the nose flavor you know longevity of the high stuff like that how it breeds etc if you're going like deeper into it all but I think the primary thing people select for should should always be high and everything else lines up with that you know so when you're you're making like a large selection from a large pool and you've found like a number of cultivars that have the effect that you're looking for then you can start to look into the secondary characteristics and those alleles you know and see how many line up on the same plant and go from there but I think it's interesting to hear how others selects too because like Dan in particular you know coming out at working in cultivation facilities you know working in such large pools where you're potentially culling and stuff like that I'd love to hear sort of more about that too yeah yeah we're gonna get into some of like the differences when you get to scale like you know different scales and stuff and before we get into some of those like yeah I want to hear from local as well just like initial thoughts when I say like you know determining breeding goals trait selection you know what do you think um so yeah like me for example like I sometimes I do pop things with intentions but a lot of times it's kind of right recently it's been just to kind of learn stuff but like once you kind of have an idea you know like you kind of have a direction on where you want to take it based off of what you saw like for example I have like a sweet pea it's really really like narcotic and I love it a lot but I don't want narcotic fleet all the time so like since I know that I think like you know an approach to kind of mitigate that would be crossing it to a narrow leaf type plant something of that nature but yeah I don't I don't really pop things with like intentions to cross just yet but I do like having keepers obviously from a pack yeah yeah and I think you brought up a good point as well which is you know sometimes you're just trying to counterpoint certain things with with other things or like set up like you know interesting like juxtapositions between like two quite differently expressing plants yeah okay now really interesting to hear you all about like that thing about intention and information because you can't really I think it's quite common sense so you can't really have intent without information really it just doesn't it doesn't really make sense yeah yeah I think all of us kind of touched on the fact that it's just like there is like an exploration period for most people when they're like growing something you know yeah and you know we can we can now turn to like some of the stuff that booze is interested in like you know some of the initial conditions I guess of the genetic material you're working with as well as like your own scale constraints I guess you could say like you know infrastructure and resource constraints so yeah here's what we talk about like the difference in like maybe doing a an exploration or hunt on on like a commercial scale like Dan as opposed to some of the smaller scales yeah booze did you want to say anything again about that stuff like yeah just touching so just touching back on the goals and stuff quickly too even what Dan and I were talking about before the show it's kind of relevant to exposure as well like local and I were talking about some of the sativas and stuff that we've got at the moment or smoking within Dan's like not as into sativas but it came to like look into some Mexican stuff so your goal should be relevant to that as well you know what I mean like if you've been exposed to something you like it you want to breathe that because you know it's the thing that you're into that some something that I think gets a little bit overlooked and muddy these days where a lot of people are just breeding for maybe these secondary traits that are less important like Instagram sort of specific traits so yeah that's another thing that um yeah I think it'd be cool to get into and so in terms of so sorry you want to just talk about like primary secondary traits is that what you were suggesting or yeah I'm just saying that like in this day and age so like back in the day was your question yeah yeah back in the day when there was like less pressure to like breed for Instagram and stuff like that and you're just breeding for yourself that it was you know to mean there was less need to talk about this kind of stuff because everyone was just breeding for primary traits just the things that they like which was the effect you know I mean and in this day and age there's less people that are working in that line and more towards these secondary traits like the way things look or color and stuff like that and so um yeah it's interesting and then like when you get into larger populations and stuff like that when you're finding a lot of cultivars that have got this effect that you're looking for yeah I just want to hear how it's like how people would go about that like you know how are you gonna select a specific plant when they're so similar you know what I mean like are you gonna have to look to a lab and stuff like that and use numbers so yeah I'm just interested to hear how some of the other fellas sort of see these secondary traits and how they'd select like if they've got a line for instance like local with his electric boogaloo across the Appalachia that he's popped he's got a number of ones that he's like really into so how does he go to whittling that down to you know just one or two plants so I grew a handful of those were female and they were some that look like a api and kind of a smelled like it more or less like some of those kind of like I don't want it like tart fruit I haven't like grown the api pure but I've seen some of like a Bodie's hybrids and there's like a common note that is totally api and a lot of those had that smell and then there were some that had like dog shit smells I've only smoked the dog shit I haven't grown it myself but what I liked about a lot of these not a lot of them like yeah maybe four out of the number that I grew they had like really nice like sativa spears and I'm kind of a sucker for that if I'm being honest like that that's kind of why I'm like looking at the sativas like the high is great but man that like that structure I mean you can make something productive out of it but yeah I kind of kept four of those that had that structure and now I'm kind of just doing a lot of the tests smoking right now and some of them have like a leathery kind of savory thing going on and then there's this one that has like a mango gummy bears smell and it's like kind of pretty transparent to taste and the effects are great and I'm just like it I'm kind of like don't know where to go like do I just like go if they all have the same effect do I just go for taste and I'm kind of thinking so like I think that's kind of the next step and calling the next there the handful that I have at the moment yeah there's like the way I think about it too is like when you're working at home you have this like great opportunity to like throw all those secondary traits out the window and just look at high because you're really ideally just looking for something that you like to work with and then like you like the effects of and then like when you start scaling up to like going into a commercial scene well then something's got to be like a five out of five in every category or it's not really like marketable in the way that it kind of like has to be to like sell well nowadays and there's that whole secondary drive like that they have to make a profit up what they're making and what they're selecting through and so like secondary becomes like they all become primary really because it has to smell good it has to taste good and translate it has to be like pretty and it has to get you high and so it just like it honestly limits the number of plants that you can even find that meet the criteria by like a few factors of 10 you know I think I think we're at like a tenth of a percent of everything that we pop even has a chance to go commercial and so it's the numbers go way up and then you start seeing tons of multiples you start seeing maybe you don't find what you're looking for at all in that first generation and then you have to kind of make the call of like oh well do we try and like F to it or B exit or like keep moving it forward to see if it's there or do you drop it you know and because there's there's a financial cost to all of it you know I mean no matter what scale but it's really significant at a commercial scale and so you can even kind of get into the point where like the process itself is its own selection pressure because it has to vibe within your like speed and pacing of what you're doing it has to vibe with like your soil and cultivation environment and so like that's one of the things that I've been noticing a lot is that the process itself ends up becoming a selection pressure that weeds out a lot of really good plants that never even get a chance to be seen yeah no it makes sense absolutely that at higher numbers you just you know you're just increasingly splitting hairs right yeah and at that point you even need more information or otherwise you have to rely on like either like arbitrariness or like or like your gut right yeah and you can do things like compare testing numbers but like does it really like represent what people prefer in reality like from what I've seen usually not and so then you start getting into this world of like well how do you like quantify a subjective experience in a way that we can like run numbers on it and that's really like it's a pretty interesting challenge in itself of like running those types of surveys and then like trying to run stats on it and like get anything useful from it besides like oh well these people liked it and these people didn't you know it's really hard to get answers out of people about that kind of stuff too and so when you're breeding for yourself I feel like it's really easy because you have that freedom but yeah when you're breeding for the masses it's like well what's like the largest number of people gonna enjoy and that's kind of like a weird interesting perspective to have to take on you know I'll say this as well like this conversation is quite a difficult one because it will feel quite circular right because you in in kind of like we've already kind of articulated how you kind of to move forward you know weird like you have to move forward to like move back to move like forward again sometimes to get like you know different kinds of information but I think we kind of also jump straight into like literally the evaluation decision-making part but there are some other things I wanted us to talk to first as well like so I had this whole section that I thought we could talk about which I call like initial conditions so this is stuff like what numbers are you working with what generation you know what filial generations are you working with how stable already you know how narrow is the is the pool that you're working with and if you've already determined you know what you are you target you know primary secondary traits are you know how much do you know about the likelihood of those traits being passed so this kind of I guess this kind of information partly arises from an exploration already but partly it's also about like the numbers you're working with and like yeah like I said like the filial generation and like what you know of like the boundedness I guess of the of the genetic pool already do any of you have like reflections on like what some of those things how some of those things would affect the project overall like how you start out yes say like if you're yeah go yeah little case study sort of thing man so to speak so going back to that I guess trait based selection we've got a cutting a friend of mine found Eli local birdseed shout out dude it's sourine cross to Kentucky bluegrass from Pip so it's still violet so he found it in I think out of two packets or one packet it was one of the run to your finas super low yielding compared to the rest but the smoke is just yeah it's unlike the others in the pack super dank always lays me out cuts through it's got an amazing nose on it too but it was an outlier so to speak from that pack so right now we're going through the stages of how to work on that so he's done some hybrids he's done a couple of interesting ones he crossed it to southern charm from goat and monkey which is like a Irene TK so already there he's going back to a grandparent of sorts you know what I mean it's the in the from the sourine on the mother side of the steel violet so that's one way where he's tried to just enhance that effect to go back to an initial parent you know what I mean so like a back cross of sorts and so working that forward we're trying to think well how we're going to be able to put that into a seed form how can we get that particular Fina to pop out when it itself already was an outlier so talking about like selfing it so we want to s1 it and then listening to what people like Kamiro and Caleb have said about locking in traits by selfing you have to take it to an s2 but then s2 as a seed line can be something that's generally hard to germinate or this that in the other or you can just present itself a lot of problems like even popping s1s like I had this idea about when you get s1s you're gonna pop them and it's gonna be like an exact replica of the parent so when I see all these s1s off and I'm like okay that's just you know what I mean if I want to try that clone I'll buy that s1 but then in growing a few packets out and seeing like all these weird like runty like inbred expressions that come out of it I'm like oh okay so maybe like a feminized hybrid is the way to go to find like a better expression of that initial parent you know and so now it's just like like you said a little circular but it's like what path do we take you know there's there seems to be like multiple ways to skin this cat so if I'm trying to like lock in this one trait and select just for that when it itself was an outlier like you know there's a few paths to go down so I've listed like you know crossing it to itself a couple of times or potentially hybridizing it and searching for that so that's something that I'm interested in if you guys have gotten any experience of having like a particular trait that was you know not super prevalent in the line like um say like that sherry ak or something like that and how you would go about potentially breeding towards that yeah like I think an easy one is like the z-terps because it seems to be just like this one off in the gene pool because like when you s1 it you don't find things that are like exactly like z they'll be close they'll be nice they'll be similar but they're not dead ringers and so you this is like the part in the process where I feel like you have to get like a little your hands dirty too like you do your pedigree analysis to the best of your ability and kind of like look at what the parents are if you know anything about those parents like what do you see about like in the progeny of like what you're working like a hybrid of them you know to just like identify like what you think might be coming from where but then like you really have to like to see how something's like past or to see how stable or embedded or narrow it is you know you have to like roll up your sleeves and start you know growing out plants and so like on the Z it seems to me that that aroma profile that's like really pungent is a fairly recessive trait and so when you outcross it to something that it's not closely related to you don't see it pop up very often at all you see kind of like its dwarfism it's like resin traits of being like sandy and kind of oil less but you don't see those those tert profiles show up very often and what I've kind of noticed is like I had to like reevaluate the process that I was doing well like maybe using that parent itself doesn't pass that trait the way that I wanted to well what if I take two of its children that like they may not even have the profile but they have a nice one and if you cross them together you get this double up of that recessive you know and so that took like a lot of and that works for me you know and I found a few nice plants that were kind of exactly what I wanted and but it was almost random at a certain point because like yeah I had an idea of the project but I had to like grow all the plants out and I found two out of you know like a couple dozen that were exactly what I wanted you know and so you really have to just like start making the crosses and growing the plants up to see like how something's inherited local any reflections on that not that I could add at the particular moment now yeah yeah anything to say about how do I put it feels like we have covered okay Dan maybe what's your take on like in terms of starting points like does it change your approach to know that you're working with an S1 versus like an out cross yeah because you can kind of like feel that there's no outside influence of another variety you know like I look at S1s is like a peek into what the parentage might be especially on these like clone-only types and so that's like when I like on the same like example like a Z-Turk thing that's like my next avenue of exploration is like well do the S1s pass it better than the the original clone did you know and so I've yet to see like a real-world example of that yet but in other S1s I've grown you know like you can definitely see what gets locked in easily and then the things that are like more elusive and so then you can start kind of like playing with that in your mind and kind of unraveling the mystery in the puzzle unlike filial generation I had a thought on that as well because I've had projects where like I had a really nice mom and a reversal that you know past the traits that I wanted but a lot of the traits were kind of lost in that F1 hybrid and they were all kind of bland and kind of boring and it actually took getting to that F2 generation to kind of like segregate traits a little better and get the expressions that were more interesting in a wider variety of them where that that F1 hybrid was kind of the honestly one of the closer things to an F1 I've seen where like all the plants were like identical and like you know just like a slight nuance difference in aroma between between each other you know and then in the F2 generation you got this wide segregation of all kinds of stuff and that was so much more fun to play with and look through than that F1 because it's like I'm not trying to make like a true F1 hybrid where they're all identical like I'm not growing fields of weed I want really interesting and novel combinations of things and so filial generation can play sometimes it's worth going forward because you know you're actually gonna get new combinations yeah and I think that does articulate one of the big tensions within every project where it's are you looking for outliers or are you looking for stabilization or homogenization right is that is that like a fear paraphrase yeah like I don't really want like homogene you know like that's like that's a really common goal of plant breeding because of the application but like when you're growing indoors and it's a clone that you want identical to be packaged so the consumer can have the same experience every time that they go and buy that which is like a standard across all commercial products really you know like you don't want a different experience every time you go open a can of coke you know but weeds kind of more on that like wine you know like more like sensory pleasing type of product that like everyone kind of has a different preference and a different like it's just like beer you know some people want their cheap beer their Mexican beer their craft brews you know and so there's got to be something for everyone and that's why I don't really breed for anything but diversity now because it's like I want to find new combinations of things I don't want to seed line that's like all keepers because it's so much easier to fix the secondary traits than the high you know and so that's what you I always find in a really stable line is like kind of boring weed is I'm interested in booze reflections on this because I think that's an interesting take which is that like can you say it again secondary traits are easier to fix yeah like it's easier to fix the structure the look the you know what I mean like it's it's not that hard to make most of the plants look the same but to get all of them to be like a great high or a higher prevalence of them because it's like breeding is a stats game really or like you're looking to like increase the probability that something's found in you know like if it's 1 to 20 in the original you doing your selections maybe brings that up to 1 and 4 or 1 and 2 and that's a success you know what I mean that's like as far as like a stabilization project goes but like fixing high seems to be like really elusive that is fascinating whose thoughts it's why the whole thing such yeah man it's like why the whole thing such a head fuck for me because you get something like you get an elite and you times it to an elite and you're likely to you know I mean you starting with good stock on both sides the progeny you know kind of expect what you're going to get then you get something you know I mean you hear about like the breeding of haze and stuff like that and how they had to work through you know so many generations and so many different lines and like made so many wrong steps so it's just tricky to get my head around and I guess like you said there's no like one way to go about it there's so many different ways but you know like you just don't want to forget something in a line like even what local said about before and alright I want I saw a few expressions come through that were like spear like and you know they really had the high that I want so if I select for that way like you know through link traits and that like what am I leaving behind so I think realistically I'm like I'm looking for a model that can be applied to to a lot of different selections like whether I'm working with some centivas and some hazes and stuff like that whether I'm like looking through some some indicators or some you know what I mean some more broadly stuff how can I know that I'm going to be like how it's like a target model for breeding you know what I mean like what's a target model for not leaving these traits behind I had a I had a kind of a tangential question maybe off this which is we've talked about effect being you know a primary trait that you know we can somewhat agree on partly because it's elusive but partly also because it's desirable right what about something like smell flavor because that there those two are often sometimes even like pitch as though they were in tension right like sometimes you know you can find something that has great smell and flavor but it doesn't have the potency right so often you hear about that tension yeah I guess that's like with the Skittles and stuff like that what Dan was talking about it's not like purported to be exceptionally potent but it's still you know what I mean super famous line and everyone's into it and even like what Caleb's doing with the reversals and stuff like that reversing one of his selections like making s2s looking for that particular smell so I guess yeah even with the bubble gum and that everyone says it's not the most potent line but you know it's gotten amazing you know so I guess these are considerations you know people are doing these kind of things so like on a larger scale then like when you were doing some of these breeding for other facilities and stuff like that was that one of their major concerns like I know you said in your interview that you were you had selections that you might want to have kept but they never would have seemed a lot of day because they weren't what meant the the quarter or the you know me I was quite there or whatever how how did that go was it like they were gone for the stinkier sort of ones or the ones that you know a bit better aesthetic so now sometimes there's stuff that's like really tasty and like really or has a really nice high but it's like horribly ugly you know it's just like not gonna be saleable or marketable because like you could never take a nice picture of it and like a lot of times those will go into like either like future breeding projects but like of most of the time they end up in the bin you know because it's like it was almost good which is not good enough and so it's kind of unfortunate in that right but there is a lot of people that breed like almost exclusively for flavor because like potency itself is also subjective you know some people only like to get so high I hear that from a lot of older folks like when I've been in dispensaries and stuff and there's some senior citizen with their veteran hat on and they're like all the last stuff you gave us was like way too way too strong like we need something lighter and so there's like a whole portion of the demographic or a whole demographic of the consumer pool that like kind of wants light weed because you know when they maybe first tried it or whatever it was probably only 10% THC or less and so I actually do like tasty weed it's not like it usually is lower potency in my opinion as far as like fruity and candy stuff but it's desirable in its own right like I like to have them around and like do blends with more potent weed like a nice og or a chem or a hybrid of that you know and then put some really tasty weed on top and get some of that flavor and so I think it all has its place you know I want to ask you as well Dan like and this is probably what I considered like a naive question but you mentioned before that you thought fixing a fix was harder than fixing some of the other like maybe more structural traits would you say the same of smell and flavor that it that that can be hard to fix as well yeah it can be pretty elusive some stuff breeds really dominant for it you know and you can see that and it makes life really easy because it's just like every time you have like a population you're working with like for me right it has to be the 5 out of 5 things every time one of those is fixed it just makes my pool of selection slightly easier to pick through because then you can go based off of potency and the other four you know like it makes it easy by eliminating one of them because they're like oh they're all really pretty or they're all tastes really good and so that doesn't have to be a pressure at that point you know and you can start looking more and diving into the other things without that convoluting it yeah I feel like there is part of that I didn't answer but we're all stoner I think I think that was you know I think we got we got the point and there's also of course like no definitive way we can say that like that's always gonna be true right thanks just we're just talking about like what from what you know someone like Dan has seen in his experience yeah I mean anything else in terms of like some of these I'm calling them initial considerations but it seems silly to call them that now because like we discussed like you already have had to have done quite a bit of work to even know about some of these questions or answers I guess anyone have any other reflections because if not we can move on to quite an interesting thing which I think people don't get to talk about that much in this process anything from you local me or anyone else yeah well I've got something but I think it leads into the second bit so I don't know I don't want to okay all right well we can we can just we can move on and then you know again like this talk honestly like while I've set out these kind of like progression of points like honestly we're just gonna keep looking back so whatever so the next thing I wanted to do characteristics and stuff like that like I've been shitting on a bit but relevant to note taking well that's super important because you can't smoke it to the end you know what it means you don't know really how the effects gonna be so having all those secondary characteristics to lead into your note taking and breeding notes and stuff like that super important well that was that is the section right so this section is about like I think again especially from then it must be it'll be very different from like anyone doing breeding or seed making at home but it's about organization and like how you you organize your information your data collection all of that but maybe the time we start with like booze or local like on a smaller scale like how do you get ready to embark on this kind of projects like what do you prepare in terms of like your notes or documentation you know that kind of thing do you take notes local like do you have like a little notebook that you're writing down or your observations on or do you just take pictures or what's your cool I do a lot of pictures but I also like you know I have like a note on my iPhone that I kind of keep like track of the smells more or less because like I don't know you can't really smoke it like you said so this information is it's relevant but it's not relevant until like you you've done the final analysis of all the data I guess yeah because I like to look back on it after like I generally keep two separate sets of notes like once I'm holding now like handwritten and that's like well pretty much like from week two or three of flower I start doing that so I don't really care about in veg you know I mean things will just do the what they'll do and generally I'll group them like before I flow them out I'll just group shit from highest or from like tallest to shortest you know and that might not be realistic of what they're going to perform like it's like growing a bunch of stuff from seed I'll do it that way and then I'll start taking notes yeah week two or three flower pretty much once they start putting up putting out a smell so I'll be like writing down you know a rumor on the stem if I'm seeing any resin or stuff like that even the way like the flow floral structure is so if it's like tall or short or how similar they are to one another and then depending on how many things I'm running I'll start grouping them as well like if I'm running I know 14 different phenos from a line and I see that okay three of them presenting this like you know sort of more rounded top more like a moth bully sort of nose whereas each other ones are more like you know spears taller a bit more gassy I'll like group them together and then when I'm actually trying everything out after drying it and assessing again I'll go in those categories and assess that way and so like when I'm whittling down you know 14 phenos down to four you know I'll have my four different categories and you know select the best one from each of those categories and then go from there so that's that's how I like to do mine I am I think it's really helpful I used to just do it all in my head and I still do like for the greenhouse where I'm just growing like one packet of seeds but where I'm working indoors and I've got like you know multiple packs of things on the go and I'm trying to like keep on top of everything I find it super handy and then when I'm culling I'll generally just go through you know and just assess and group characteristics and then yeah cut back from there yeah I'd have to say like my like home process is like really similar to that as well like I just keep a lab notebook like I did in college and shit and I set off a section leave a few pages and just take notes on you know structure and height and you know estimated flower time when I cut it down if it was responding well to like just the base fee that I was giving everything if it needed something extra or like needed more water on average just like really base cultivation notes so that when I come back and if I find something I like and I come back and regrow it that I'm not like starting from square one again with like you know what I think they're probably gonna prefer and like but it gets a lot more hectic at a commercial scale because I was just talking about it with on the server with someone in the DMs and I was just like it's it's chaos at times man I have like 40 spreadsheets and they've got everything from like I'm a little tedious with my notes right especially at work because like I'm taking notes all the way through flower just like brief ones and like they're really just like what stands out the most when I'm like going through a big room of like seedlings and you know they're already flowering like it's like I'll take a few small notes but it's really at the end where we start getting a little more intensive and so like I'll look at like it's height it's a general stature like it has big strong stems or it's thin and lanky I'll look at like it's leaf to bud ratio if it has like lots and lots of big fan leaves coming out of the buds or if it's more like an og and they kind of just are a little skirt at the bottom kind of thing you know I'll look at a lot of resin trades like whether it's sticky or sandy I'll look at you know general or Roma profiles trichome density as far as like is it like you know coated or not and so like I have a lot of like qualitative scales that I use for that where it'll be you know like high resin density versus medium or low kind of thing and like you know little sub ones in between but yeah the real note taking happens after a stray you know that's where I start getting like a lot more meticulous about like aroma notes and effect notes and what I like there's a part of me that wishes I had that much more time and money because I would totally build something for you yeah it'd be fun I've been wanting to do a community one honestly where it's like you know like send out a pack of seeds and I'm like alright you can grow it your way but it's like these are the traits and like the things that we're looking at and these are the scales and it would take some big effort you know what I mean but I think it'd be really cool like crowdsourced big data pools like that where you're like have a thousand seeds popped of something you know I was thinking mostly just about managing the data so I could I can easily envision like a tool with like a proper database with you know proper querying and reporting and everything yeah that's what I was talking about with spreadsheets yeah yeah yeah there's like a few there's like a company called like breed base there's a bunch of them honestly that are like kind of plug-and-play so sure but there's no like can of specific ones as far as I know so there actually might be a market for that you know because it is kind of its own different process and like the needs may differ vastly from like a normal crop that's in the ground for quite a while or you know only gets turned over once a year yeah yeah but it's clear like how critical documentation and like proper archival is for this process especially on like a certain scale because like booze was saying there's just no way you can hold that stuff in your head past a certain point even as a home grower like I had some plants that I forgot to take notes on because it was like during that whole surgery thing and I was looking at them dry and I'm like I can't remember anything about this there's five of them it is easy to forget yeah and so even if there's also not long before like your current run just blurs into like previous ones for sure yeah anyone else got any other points on like organization or like documentation yeah damn when you're doing like those massive pops like 600 seeds or whatever are you guys culling in veg or like early bloom like based on some of these traits if like you're not seeing enough resin density or whatever or no nothing like that but we will cull stuff that's like like not thriving in the environment like if it misses like you know because we have to like clone everything keep a backup copy and then send it off to flower and so if something like say doesn't clone easily it'll probably get taken out if something isn't thriving in the environment it probably gets taken out if it herms it definitely gets taken out like zero tolerance on that sort of stuff and so you end up like removing probably about 40 to 50 percent of the plants based on some of these traits on certain runs because they're just more prevalent in those lines for whatever reason I'd love to have the numbers to be able to do that you know what I mean yeah because I keep shit like my buddy will pop like yes ones would have and he's like oh anyone that comes up looking mutant or trifoli or whatever I'll just fuck them off but I'm sitting there thinking like man my friend found you know this one of the best plants I've ever smoked and you know it was this runty little thing so I'm like you know if I'm thrown away all these little ones are what am I leaving behind potentially so I'll keep them and I'll just baby them yeah if I keep them in the veg a little bit longer and you know flower amount longer than the others I'll hang on to them because yeah so I always wonder like in large facilities you know you'd be stupid when you've got like investors and stuff as well you know you can't spend time fucking around with like you know seedlings that just went veg etc so yeah it's interesting to hear there is a cost to it though you know because it's like a lot of people say those runs are the best smoke a lot of the time you know and so that's one of the things I wonder when people talk about like that the highs are disappearing on on modern weed now is just like if it's really the process election presser that's like removing those runs before they even have a chance to be evaluated as flower kind of thing you know there's something funny to me about this because it's like the I feel like CSI is one of those people who's famous for saying that he likes growing out those runs right we're seeing that's who I was referencing yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah because once you've lost them you can't even go back and know whether you made the right decision or not I guess unless you like keep them all the way until the end still and just just to like prove to yourself that you made the right call but that's so much work in and of itself yeah and again at that scale it almost necessitates being really ruthless because yeah have to be but I mean like Skittles I think is a dwarfy little mutant that probably would get cold in any facility OGKB is probably a little dwarf mutant that nobody would select for I think OG even to a certain degree falls into that category because it's real finicky it probably get cold nowadays just because nobody wants to grow it because it's like you know it doesn't fit the model that's going around that's an interesting point right because am I right in thinking that by any idealization of like structure and yield and everything a lot of hype strains wouldn't necessarily like be ideal fits right so yeah fashion in the market I also clearly paying playing a huge role in I mean it's an obvious thing to say I think that actually kind of links back to what we were talking about earlier with the like fixing secondary traits is like one of the reasons that's so easy is because in the modern gene pool it's all coming from such a narrowed down point that it's already fixed for me like I don't have to select for purple OG structured low leaf to bud ratio plants because it's like honestly what's fixed in the gene pool more than anything else yeah it's almost like a new baseline yeah exactly it's the new skunk one and so it's a it's just it's good it's a good structure it passes it because it's so fixed but you know that's why kind of what I was inferring earlier on by like oh it's easy to fix secondary traits it's not easy if it's like you know a rarity in a gene pool but like in our gene pool that most people work in it's a it's it's all fixed for you and so that's what I meant by that local you're a academic type of academic young man answer do you like at university and the things that you've learned about selection so you know going all the way back to like what's his name so do with the fucking peas name again yeah um yeah going back to that do you find any of that applicable to the breeding that you do like you you know leaning on academic shit for that or um in a way not really like I don't know there there's just so many genes at play that it doesn't really apply but like I think there still is like um you can kind of achieve an f1 you know if you properly select the parents but I haven't gotten that far to like we have two true true breeding parents you know but I don't know I'm kind of just looking for good weed man and and like yeah breeding can fix traits to do that but like at the end of it like you know good weed is good weed right um so I was interested to ask you because everyone will obviously owned by this chat I know fuck all about breeding and genetics and all that kind of stuff so I was interested to see someone that actually is like learn this kind of stuff if you find any of the academic literature is relevant to breeding canvas home but I find the whole thing oh sorry oh yeah nah go brother go for it um we actually like basically had a whole episode on like the science and what we felt the limits were in application it's probably worth like rehashing a little bit of it local just did touch on it slightly like Mendel's model of heritability does depend on like certain conditions ideal conditions being in place right like you actually knowing which alleles map to which like traits which like whether it's like a proper f1 leading to sorry a proper like IVL parents leading to a proper f1 which leads to a proper f2 generation which often we don't really get if you like in in cannabis and then we mentioned a whole bunch of other things as well like they are these other strange things where what is it like one trait can be controlled by multiple genes or one gene being linked to multiple traits is that possible as well I feel like both of those are possible yeah well and like people the scale is kind of what people fail to like realize is that like I was doing some reading on some gene correlation studies with reversals and it's like 12,000 different genes that are activated during the reversal process that aren't active during flowering and each one of those has like on average 12 different alleles or versions of that gene and so like there it's it's like incomprehensibly complex you know local did you have to do like taxonomy and like I plant ID when you're in college um so that those kind of classes were actually like kind of done being offered because a lot of the bottom professors were like kind of on their way out yeah they're always retiring and like right and taxonomy it's like I don't want to say it's a dying field but like it's not really relevant anymore sadly except for grass is grass is really the only thing I would have loved to do something like that but it mine was kind of more like ecological yeah and shit like that yeah because I was I was actually just having a conversation the other day about how like I didn't learn anything about breeding beyond Mendel like I learned I took a bunch of genetics and evolution courses and like ecology courses and stuff but the the only thing that I feel like really helps me in like my breeding is like really was the tax the taxonomy and the plant ID and like developmental anatomy because you get you get like really used to identifying really really minute traits that are like sometimes not visible to the naked eye and like that's like what's determining where you go next on the dichotomous key of like what you're looking at you know right and so I feel like that's like really a really good like training course for trade identification because you're just honed in on to all these micro features that that's interesting that you bring that up because one of my professors she did a lot of like what was it like pedigree type analysis where she'd grow a lot of like you know crosses that she would make from you know different populations or cross within populations and kind of see what genes were coming from what specific population and like when you do stuff like that you kind of do learn to pick up like those really minute traits that might not like be an end all be all answer but like you're like okay I know this characteristic I know that this will breed can breed for this you know type of deal deal but if anything it was more like learning models yeah what it is it's nice to know but it's not essential yeah it's not like a whole piece like it's not a tool in the toolbox per se but just like a mindset right yeah and Mendel got lucky people always forget about that like he was looking at like the perfect plant breeding model possible of like like real simple dominant recessive genes and like a plant that's like an obligate in crosser unless you like open up the flower I don't know if it was luck I think he it was intentional right like he chose I don't know yeah but yeah yeah that's true it could have been intentional I haven't I haven't read it referenced that way but well I think that's always what's interesting about any application of science and we talked about this on your episode too we're like the construction of the model and then testing the model is like one thing but checking the models fit to reality is not the same thing yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah I mean that's that's definitely the kind of question I would love to ask someone like Chimera if you know if and when we get him on because it's even attention for me in producing an episode with him where I'm like I'm sure you could tell us a lot but it's like how much of it is just out of theoretical interest for most of us versus like stuff with like practical implications for us you know at home so to speak yeah yeah there's a lot of really cool theoretical and like like technically achievable stuff that yeah it just doesn't have any real application to like further anything but it is really cool like I've designed a bunch of experiments like that they're just like absolutely worthless probably wouldn't work but they're like a really cool theoretical concept yeah I mean like this is a little detour here perhaps but like from your experience breeding and selecting on those commercial scales like have there been lessons you've been able to take home yeah the gene pools way more narrow than most people think it's like what I was like it's just like smashing me in the face is because like you get a new marketed name and you grow it out and you look at it and you're like oh it's just this slightly reworked or reflavored you know and so it's actually hard to get diversity outside of the isn't that because of like the particular playing field that you're in it is yeah yeah I mean but it's kind of like I don't know it's been hammered on this show a million times just like that the gene pools kind of you know like in trouble as far as like the way that it was legalized made it to where you know like the nurseries want to mom up something that's gonna sell and so they pick 12 or 15 things that they think will sell and what sells right now is like candy gas purple OG structure and so like there's economic forces like selecting the gene pool right now which is really stupid yep yep yep I think yeah you're right it's very short it's narrative well yeah yeah it's nothing that hasn't been said on here I feel like a parrot so yeah no no no I mean like that is those are the conditions that we are facing and so it's hard to ignore them when yeah like you said like smacking you in the face every day but then like whenever I've been to a new state that's been legalized because like we always tried to be there first is you get a lot of cool cuts that kind of just crop up from all these people that are just like hey I've got this in there so you know like a regional diet of weed but there's no provenance to any of it you know what I mean and so it's like oh did I really have that or was it just this weird one-off thing you know like I saw some stuff like that in Oklahoma like this dude like showed me some weed it was all lime green he's like I call it Mountain Dew it kind of had this like I don't know it had a soda-y sweet smell to it you know but never heard of it never seen it again and so like there is pockets of diversity it's just like we need good caretakers kind of thing amen well wait this is funny like so the next section I had in mind is kind of looping back again honestly it's it's I called it evaluation and decision making and I suppose like this is this is kind of after you've gotten all your information right all your data sets are there you've floured and I presume like harvested and tested everything and you're at the point now where you're having to make those choices of like what to keep and what not to keep I mean we've sort of been talking about this the whole time right this is this is selection already so I don't know is there anything else we want to like talk about again more here anything that's come up for people since we started talking about this I mean like it's all with that that this is the part where like you're gonna really enjoy having your notes you know what I mean because when I'm smoking something I like to look I like to read my cultivation notes while I'm smoking something and writing down the smoke notes you know and so I'm actually more curious about like the criteria other than like yeah that's fire that Matt and local are both like how are you thinking about it because like I'll always have like a few decisions were like obviously there's the one that was like the strongest and there's usually the one that was the tastiest but is there anything that ever like sticks out to you guys that you guys are like I don't I don't know why but I have to keep this for this reason I mean like for me for example things that like to like grow themselves essentially it's a really nice trait for me I don't know why but I'm kind of just like at this point a little convinced that things that you grow better are ultimately gonna express better so it's like when I'm selecting something that grows a lot better for me I feel like I'm ultimately gonna get the more true to expression and it's not like my weed doesn't ever get me high you know what I mean like I don't know I get you know it all works and you know like for example like the eb appy stuff I thought a lot of the highs were all there but it's just like it comes down to like what is gonna grow the best for me what do I want to keep around the most but it becomes hard because like you know you have that whole FOMO thing yeah for sure it's like you know when you get rid of something you're almost like kind of second-guessing yourself because you're not sure what was lost like you don't know what you can't get back it's like how long do you keep it yeah exactly and then yeah how many how many cuts do I want to keep as I said before like if you've got a line and you've got like four sort of relatively different expressions and you're a fan of all of them like you just hang on to everything or you're like recombining those phenos in an attempt to you know what I mean create something that's even better and combinations it's interesting like where do you go from there and I like I tend to hang on to stuff probably longer than I should like I have like two or three things and I'm just still whittling it down and cutting hairs and at that stage I'll start asking friends I'll be like all right which one did you like out of that and you know what I mean like if I really can't can't get to a logical conclusion myself about it and um yeah so also it's like where do you go from there it's the next step like is this the epitome of this line is this like where I want to start with this plant so I want to try and maybe get another packet of seeds and see if I can find something better than that and yeah it's the FOMO thing too and I guess it's a little bit of imposter syndrome even like looping back to the start with exposure like you and me thousands and even local doing stent not being in California but like you and me you know what I mean we haven't been exposed to a lot of these things so I have I've been to Amsterdam I've tried you know a couple of these and hazes and stuff over there and other cuts but for the most part like you know I haven't smoked the real Saudis or I haven't smoked like NOG any of these baselights really so you know I'm keeping it I'm like yeah obviously I'm keeping it for myself but you know I like to think of like I know myself as a bit of a seed saver too like I've got a large collection and I want to you know keep it around not just for myself of others as well so when I'm thinking about like you know selecting something or hanging on to something I'm like fuck is this even worth it like you know I might like it but you know is it worth like just getting rid of this so I can focus my attention on popping more packs of seeds to find something even better like it's not having that exposure to that stuff like you know you sort of set your own baselines and that yeah it's interesting definitely man like it's funny when when Dan was talking about in a way I guess how jaded he was with the gene pool I had to also had I had a moment of being like you know I'm so far from that right because I just haven't seen haven't seen any of that and so even like right now I'm running blaze at pandas born in the purple which is a t1000 from CSI humble and underdog urkel also from CSI but panda selection and it's my first encounter with like an urkel og combination and an urkel like full stop it's nice I know that it is nice but I also can kind of see through it I can see in it I guess like where people have taken that since you know if we want to consider an orgy probably being like a component of some of what's happening yeah back like way upstream and it is fascinating to kind of get these like snapshots of where things have been and gone or like where things have come from because prior to this I was also doing like you know tks ones 91 s1 kemdi hybrids just to kind of like yeah start working my way through some of those names and it is a very different experience I have to say for sure and like you said as well you know in a way it is a bit of a gift too because we're not as constrained right by either like the market or taste or like fashion yeah definitely interesting yeah no milers over there I imagine no all fuck plenty of miles dude just full oh yeah damn that's an easy one to bring over right like yeah I guess so yeah that part that's the easy part you're probably closer to where the milers are getting made than I am oh man good point yeah probably flies fewer miles here yeah yeah yeah man it's uh I think the t1000 is probably like it's probably one of the places I would tell people to go if they were looking for like better or like healthier or just like reinvigorated versions that would still hit that modern appeal you know what I mean because it is the base of like everything that we look at in some convoluted way and so just but just imagine if that's all you ever saw at the same time you know yeah when I try it I'm like I can see how nice this is but I'm like I can also see myself getting quite tired of this as well you know yeah yeah and like it it's fixed you know it's truly fixed and so I don't know I'm just kind of tired of smelling those creamy anise aromas they're good I still like them there's always a place in my heart for some sunset sure um but um past that I kind of think that's where it peaked honestly slightly tangential but um brings up an interesting point that spindle made yesterday in the discord about like potentially making a new clone only you know so it's weird like 90% of the shit well I won't go that far but aside from cookies and stuff like that but you know what I mean 90% of the shit that was kept around seems to be like from the 90s early 2000s with like all the hazes and diesels and cushions and kens and like that kind of stuff like the shit that was kept around in clone form train wreck stuff like that um how would you even go about making a new clone only in this day and age with so you know what I mean like a million marketing channels and stuff like that to have to wade through I think it was like uh I can't remember who I was talking to maybe it was local but um I was just like looking at like the modern gene pool in that bottleneck and I drew a bullshit little diagram I'm like oh gee perps and then you know like just like the base you know like thin mint sherbet gelato everything we have now and I think the way to make something new is like more like what some of the homies on the server are doing and so I like I really like when I see things like um last episode we talked about pack and the um Santa Cruz wreck like that's a really cool it's two clone onlys right but I think we're like the real magic is bound to happen is that like that's an uncommon cross that I haven't really seen made before this and then you also get high and lonesome and he grabs it and he takes that and crosses it to the api and like neither of those are really like they have maybe some elements in some modern things but it's so outside the fold of the bottleneck that we see now because it's like an upside down triangle is how I view the modern gene pool and we kind of just like fold in some things from down below every now and then but it still comes down to a point where it was like one or two cuts um and so um being completely outside that gene pool and like going back to pedigree analysis you know what I mean like like you can look up enough of this stuff to make sure and just be like oh like this seems like an uncommon idea and I'm outside the primary gene pool that's like what people need to start doing and start adding some new trees to the forest instead of a new branch to the family tree kind of thing I'll say that some of those santa cruzrex man look pretty fucking zah like yeah on par with like modern blue dreams resin coated man when you grow it right and so like I can totally believe it and she gets dark or at least the santa cruzrex some of them got pretty fucking dark dude I've noticed that the blue dream throws purple with led like uh pac and I have talked about that a little bit you get a lot more of that anthocyanin production for some reason with led over sungrown or you know hps huh I I wanted to okay I kind of want to sign post one thing I think we're kind of like leaving behind selection I think that's probably good I think we just open it up and just like we can all just talk about like what we're into in terms of like projects that hypothetical or real projects and stuff like that and I wanted to prod local a little bit because you know he he now has like and I don't know how much I don't want to pressure him to like talk about if he doesn't want to but I feel like now he's kind of got a really interesting library and a really interesting kind of like pool of genetics to work with and I'm curious to know like you know what he's going to do local do you want to speak to anything about like what you you're thinking of maybe playing with in the future you can be vague if you want um or as detailed as you want to be so yeah um right now like I don't have particularly anything in the works but I've been working on reversing the sweet pea because I'm I'm super set on it I think it has really great smoke quality and I I think that I can use that to my can you tell us about the lineage again just for the people who don't know what it is oh yeah so that sweet pea so it uh comes from uh to um p91s ones um two different ones that bitter um bitter sweet sd made um he made that like two and a half maybe three years ago um and I've grown about 14 um and then there were two that I really liked um and now I have the one that I have but it I've I've had it like for going on three years now I want to say um what kind of plant is it what you know what does it smell like what how does it so um that that's that's a hard part it's uh it's kind of like uh soapy in a way bright um at least my my specific sweet pea cut because uh not not all the p91 stuff would smell like this um at least based off of the the sweet pea that I saw um but there's kind of like a a nice soapy um bright note some slight nutty kind of notes to it like a savory kind of nuttiness and then there were some that had like a a leathery note to them but with that like kind of bright I don't want to say like um eucalyptus but more like camphor or something like that um totally but it's really hard to describe the smell because it's not like I can't really put words to it other than like in my cut's instance like that bright and soapy smell that's okay what about so you've obviously thought about what could complement it obviously or like or pose like a counterpoint to it what are your ideas or possible ideas um so uh so I guess we could take this to kind of like the primary and secondary thing like I know for a fact that it's pretty damn strong um and now what I'm looking to do is uh kind of either reduce the potency or like kind of um use it to like carry taste better if that makes sense so like something like the Death Star I would I would love to pull that off but um it's not looking too successful um but it would have been nice to kind of see what the sweet pea would have done with the Death Star in terms of kind of being able to carry that nap like that rank taste um because I don't know we like that like it does taste good but sometimes I don't think it carries the best if that makes sense I don't know like it's it's hard to to put to words but kind of that super skunk stuff doesn't always taste the best yeah because I was going to actually ask you for just everyone like rounding out the historical context like the pin on you one itself like you know what what is the vibe of the pin on you one um that's the thing is we don't know like yeah it throws I don't want to say it throws a lot but it throws enough to say that it's a polyhybrid of some sort um at least in my opinion because like you know the the the sweet peas like two s one so relative like you would in in theory it would be like um relatively stable right um it was like in regards to the potencies and smells but like there was varying structures and you know that to me kind of points that there might be a little more behind it than you know some some may would think I don't know mm-hmm okay no that's really cool thanks for telling us about pin on you and I mean uh I also wanted to ask you about some of the nld stuff that you have also because I think then booze could also speak to some of that um and I also want to hear from booze about what his plans are with some of those but look what yeah do you want to tell us about some of your nld stuff that you've got and what you might want to do or well yeah be trying so um like I've mentioned earlier i'm kind of a sucker for those haze spears so like the band aid haze number seven the eb api number 16 that I have the eb api number 14 also does something similar to that um but the one thing the one I guess the one complaint it's not even a complaint because it's kind of like a shitty complaint is like the way that the buds form on the sweet pea like I wish the buds were a little more elongated but it would be nice to like you know take that structure from a haze and kind of implement it into sweet pea and you know kind of kind of see what comes out of something like that um or like cross something like a haze or a narrow leaf type plant to like um let's see like a snow s1 or something like that or um yeah something of that nature kind of play with the idea of like doing that you know narrow broad to see if you get you know kind of heterosis if you will because ultimately um like if you're asking like me for like my breeding goals i'm gonna want to create like a good amount of diversity so that I like the room is is paramount like I have like the possibilities are endless that's kind of what I I would like to do for myself like in terms of hunting like it doesn't get boring etc it might be harder to find things but that's like the beauty of it is being able to go through plants right absolutely booze did you want to speak to us about the NLD stuff yeah just before local what do you cross on the sweet pea to like you're versing it onto a bunch of your cuttings are you just like asking to see if it flipped or what's the problem so yeah I have uh so I have the dust star in the tent I have the band data haze number seven I and I have the Santa Cruz wreck number six which was one of my favorite ones um some seeds are forming but not a lot like it's nothing too crazy but at least we know that the pollen does something right how many did you reverse uh just one at this point and I have a bunch in veg you know ready to go it's just uh there are other things that I need to kind of prepare for in the future that you know may a reversal right now might not be like the best idea I don't know yeah I'm shot for time a little bit as well but fucking I've already like flipped six and they were all throwing nuts so I'm like all right we're all in but I've um I got a cool plant it's a thread cutter so it's uh the mom is I think similar to something you've grown by the mom oh no it's similar to the glass onion that you just did thousand but it's um star four was the mom so it's uh what is it it's it's a rubber yeah chem D afghani and then jesus onto that so I found one out of 18 that was my favorite in terms of effect and smell so it was runty compared to the others it's kind of weird it throws these big chunks on like little stick frames so not really like a cam or something that I'd expect to see but yeah out of all of them it kind of grew almost like a vine to start off with compared to some of the other like more robust indicators but throws like really good resin fantastic high and um yeah it seems to like other shit in the tent have been a little bit affected by mites this round like I've had a drama just like with inspections and that having to bring stuff outside and then bring it back in so I've like got a couple of pest concerns and they don't seem to really be getting any damage so I've um I've reversed some of them because I've got a couple of sativa cuts in the arsenal from my mate as well as a I've got a star mox cutting that's from another buddy that's like star dog crossed Malamo harken and the thing with that is the mox which is the uh being reversed onto the star dog in this instance it appears to be super dominant because even though it's been reversed onto a bunch of indicators you still get them like 14 to 15 week phenos popping up just uh I'm interested to see how that will cross to this indica plant because the mox uh the star mox it's thrown like pretty decent sized buds as well but nothing like chunking out like the the thread cutter so crossing this uh something that's on like a bit of a lankier frame um that's supporting large flowers like the thread cutter onto something that's on like uh you know a much more sturdy frame and thrown like a more spear like but I'm interested to see how those two will go together but I'm breeding sativas together or something that I'm super interested in going forward uh I haven't really done a lot of it to be honest like I've just been in the popping seed stage but made in my local bird seed he's done a really interesting run uh recently he's used like a tv mail from Bodie and crossed it onto three cuttings that he has so the Isaac Hayes which is from Yo Sammy that's that um ag13 crossed to a c5 f2 of sorts and then um he what else he's got he's got a bandaid Hayes ix3 and then harlem dream which is like a blue dream crossed to a piff s1 so by crossing them onto the the tv it's interesting because you don't really see a lot of people doing these sativa hybrids like a bit more than now you know obviously there's like aceds and Bodie and stuff like that but when you think like in the 80s a lot of the magic that um came over to Amsterdam was like you know from the Hayes and the skunk and stuff like that which featured you know some pretty crazy equatorial land races so this is interesting to you know now that a lot of diversity has been sort of lost to an extent and a lot of people are playing around just in a smaller gene pool it'd be cool to see like what's been left behind so to speak you know see what like a columbian crossed to a angola red does or even some of the the oldest stuff from Neville and crossing that into you know some of this more um rural land race stuff and just see what pops out of it that's what i'm super interested in and like granted i don't think it's an easy path like it's i think it's pretty easy to you know get a couple of packets of seeds these days and make something that's pretty phenomenal like breeding is it's kind of been simplified by the sheer amount of people that are making seeds and working with good things like in the 80s when there was only a couple of people doing it you know it's kind of a crapshoot um so to speak you know because you have just numbers alone you know what i mean like you're working with such less numbers but now that there's you know so many people in America working with clones and collectives like i don't think it's that hard to find good plants uh in you know these cultivated varieties so going back like land races and earlier you know regional cultivars i think that's where it's it's gonna we're going to be able to find these um really unique cars and on that line as well like with my yeager s1 that i've got you know i think that's a pretty unique old school line as well you know fucking herms like something else you would and it's got a fantastic nose and if it is like some hindu kush like from the 80s or 90s you know either from neville or from um someone else that had imported it or you know perhaps locally like from washington or whatever um you know i think that could be cool to inject some of these sativas as well you know kind of like doing a f1 hybrid of sorts kind of like never did with the nl5 so yeah that's something that i wouldn't really want to do going forward to you know once i've busted into some of these you know packets from white buffalo and wally duck and some of these other cats um you know find some cool finas and put something like the the yeager onto that or an urkul or um purple indigore or something like that i think one one high level reflection that i have you're listening to all of you is like there've been kind of suggestions from for like different tactics for or strategies perhaps for achieving novelty or like achieving uh something that is you know not subject to the same uh i don't know uh constraints as like some of the more hyped stuff right whether that's like going a little bit further upstream to some of the like uh older elites like the blue dream and train wreck going even further upstream to you know yeah like booze is saying land races regional cultivars um or just kind of being adjacent right like going sideways perhaps a bit more as well um and yeah that's you know that i i find like thinking about it on that level quite interesting too where you have this like huge possibility space and you can like or graph maybe and you like go up or down or you go you know sideways um i find that stuff really interesting yeah i think it's uh i think that there's not a lot new i think every now and then i see something novel come out but it'll be like something really small and not it's because i'm searching so hard to find something interesting to look at you know but i really like i agree with matt i think a lot of people are gonna have to start taking some of these um i honestly just the oldest cuts you can find that are still good and don't have that aren't you know like you know rotated glasses types cuts like and we're gonna have to you know start crossing those out with other things that um aren't common either and that's like the only way we're gonna find um anything new and exciting that new elite cut you know like i have no idea what it'll be but like i definitely know when something's like when i look at something and i'm like oh it's kind of played out you know and so um i'm really we were talking about this before we started recording was like i'm really interested in old mexican cuts i know it's kind of a pipe dream or mexican seeds is uh that's kind of seems to be where a lot of the magic from like the seed bank days and you know uh with a lot of varieties like that mexicans seem to be kind of a perfect middle ground between really really long flowering and something that's like manageable in the northern hemisphere and then also has like those nuanced flavors and highs and expressions um i mean i'm sure that comes with a ton of herms that's kind of what i've seen from landry stuff when you try and work with it it's lots lots of herms that goes back to matt just being like it's not an easy path but i think it is the path that we're going to have to take to find exciting things that aren't kind of um just redundant and you know kind of tropes at this point any other thoughts on like possible directions that could be taken from any of you i do think that someone recently told me that there seems to be like a few types of cuts um like the white being one of them where like when you cross it with something the the profiles in the plant seem to be more than the sum of its parts and there doesn't seem to be a lot of examples of these um but we're like like you know what's funny about the white is it's kind of just like a really resin coated odorless aromalous og type you know what i mean but like it seems to like make really interesting aromas in its progeny and i don't really know what that's from but i think it's something that people need to be looking at for more i mean is it a naive uh assumption for me to be like oh it's obviously a recessive trait of some kind i would assume yeah yeah or even just something that like there's types of genes that need to be out crossed to like express and you know just because something's fixed in a gene pool well like the homogenous combination may be like not great but then you know when it's crossed out with something then it can express in the desirable way and so i think people need to get away from the idea that like a dominant trait or a fixed trait in a population is always a good thing you know i have a i have a bit of a uh i don't know what you'd call this kind of question maybe i don't know if it's silly but i another another way for me to ask something like this is also like are there particular smell or flavor profiles that we haven't either come across here or haven't been like popularized yet uh or that are more rare than others that you guys are interested in i think the plant's honestly capable of doing all of them from what i've seen you know i've been surprised by stuff you know um but like i can't really think of something that i don't think would be like possible you know because like what it seems to me like is that like um just like cannabinoids a lot of like terpenes and aromatic compounds have like multiple versions of them and that's almost like the evolution of the prevalence of like a compound in a gene pool you know what i mean where it's like you can have different um prevalence of different um like isomers and types of like uh um like limonene or that's probably a bad example i'm not a chemist i'm not like super deep in the scent science you know um but it um yeah like i think that we can get all of it it's just like when you have a narrow gene pool you get one thing you know and so if we can get that worldwide gene pool opened up again i've heard people describe all kinds of wild combinations from you know trips up into napal and stuff like that in northern india and so i've never experienced that myself you know but like um spicy hashy fruity combos seem to be big and you know um i think it's just going to be more novel combinations of smells and aromas more than like anything you haven't seen in weed before because we've got everything from garbage to artificial grape candy you know i was who's i i think local was on this conversation maybe you were there as well dan i was i was asking i was asking them um about uh fruit smells and how often they translate and which ones tend to and which ones don't so i know grape is probably quite a good one right and that it does tend to transfer from smell to flavor no i've seen it go both ways yeah i've seen it go both ways on the on the fruity stuff and it's almost seems to be like a prevalence of it like it like it's its own trait as whether the flavor translates or not yeah because it's going to determine like the chemical forms that that aroma compound is in and like whether it's like surviving combustion or not and it's like form that tastes good or if it's converted into a form that tastes good you know and so that's like a huge thing is there's a lot of stuff that's fruity that doesn't taste fruity and i don't think that's very desirable yeah yeah if it smells like a peach i want it to taste like a peach or something else equally is good you know what i mean it's kind of cool when flavors like um i don't know maybe you smell strawberry but you taste blueberry or something like that some weird combo like that that could be really novel and really cool yeah yeah because i was going to say like blueberry is a good example i don't obviously we know because because we are associated with met obviously we know quite a bit about it but i feel like for the purposes of the wider market it's not that well recognized perhaps yeah it's kind of one of those common questions though that you get asked by people that are i mean maybe just at a certain tier in the industry but they're like oh it smells like that did it translate like it's definitely something that comes up in my conversations with work quite often local you know you were telling us about that like was it white gummy bear uh you know smelling eb appy like does how how does that translate to flavor um i would say it translates pretty well actually um i don't know if it's because like it i don't know it has like a really kind of wet oily resin and maybe that kind of allows it to like carry really well but it it tastes just like it smells and then obviously like as you get towards the end it just turns into weed but the taste is definitely noticeable um and i mean i i don't it doesn't get me any less high than the other one other ones um but i don't know it's i guess yeah it's a hard one because i mean some of them don't taste as amplified as that one like the number fours has the same smell but it doesn't taste as like um volatile if that makes sense or like it's not as like flavorful as the number one but the smells are the same i had a follow-up question for both of you who i uh so matt matt booze is like um may may be unavailable for the rest of this chat we'll see how he goes but for now um for you two dan and local uh i i had a question because when matt riot was doing his uh smoke reviews he's doing flower reviews for a bit for us and like what was interesting was obviously watching him uh smoke in a bong and then smoke in a vape right oh sorry smoke you know vape it um i don't think local vapes right local i mean do you dan and like how do you how do you conceptualize that distinction i mean it's just like a difference in in heat really you know because like i remember when like the puff coze first came around they actually like didn't get hot enough to combust your oil fully so you always had this just like pool of your last dab in there um and the new ones are great the new ones like can do it um but like i've noticed like a lot of the vaporizers um they have this like popcorny flavor that comes with them and um i've never tried like the what does he have like the v rip or whatever i don't even know what that thing is looks like he's freebase and cracked to me um but um i don't know man um i have like a pax three i think a little handheld dry flower vape and i really like it but it's definitely not for flavor it's for like ease of use and like so i don't feel like i'm like like i don't know inhaling leaders of smoke into my lungs every day and then i'll get cancer and die you know um but um yeah they all all the vapes that i've ever tried all kind of like in a way change the flavor and make it slightly worse because that popcorny flavor is still there but um i wouldn't be skeptical to say that like some people enjoy it more i think that's more true for like the e dab rigs and stuff like that is that you get like really really excellent flavor because you can dial in that um temperature of your banger just perfectly to the 10th of a digit you know yeah um yeah local any thoughts on that that whole topic of like different consumption modes so i smoke primarily out of glass now i mean that's literally all i smoke actually um and yeah so i used to smoke joints only and what i've noticed is um it took me a while to like acclimate myself to the taste of like flower through glass but like it does taste better um but i don't have a vape personally and i had the same like feelings about vapes as dan until i tried that rip that matt has because like all the other ones did make the weed taste like popcorn like the first it was great and then every like everything else after that was ass but that rip it like you actually get like a lot of the nuances like the the death start tasted really fucking nice through that um i had a um afgui crossed to api that i tried through that that was also really nice um what else yeah like i don't know i if i had like the setup for it i would totally get it i don't know what goes into it i've used it once and that's it but i don't know glass it's easy like i just feel like it's the most average measure of like what the conceit like what people are gonna smoke it as or how they're gonna smoke it you know what i mean yeah and i think like it goes into like how you smoke too because like i know older people that just pack enormous bowls and they like want to pass it and like everyone's just smoking this charred ass bowl and i'm just like it's disgusting you know what i mean like i've i don't really like smoke in groups very often you know what i mean like a lot of people i know smoke but they don't want to like sit around and blaze um and so like when i'm packing my bowls like i pack snaps and i'm like i barely burn it you know like i don't want the plant material to really burn up that much like i want to burn all the resin heads and then like unpack like a partially charred bowl and pack myself another fresh one you know and so um yeah if you you're not going to get that flavor if you're packing these massive bowls and and taking multiple hits off of it because it's getting cooked each time you know and so um how you smoke yeah even with like just in the category of like like combusting weed um there's so many like different little nuances that can like make or break your experience and how much you enjoy it you know what i mean yeah i i'll also comment the one thing that i did like about joints a lot is that you know you do have some development to the smoke like it's not the same thing from starting to finish like it has stages yeah which a bong is like i think it was thousand that was saying it it's kind of just like a one and done type of deal like it has no like like it just peaks and then goes absolutely straight down from there exactly yeah yeah don't smoke the downhill but like uh see i don't really like joints and blunts that much anymore like i did when i was a more social smoker um but i i always say like the best hit on a joint is the dry hit yeah because you get great flavor for that just that little tube of paper and some ground up weed in it like you can like really really taste you know it's a different experience than like just the the smell sensory side of it in a jar like because you're actually tasting that and it's reacting on your tongue and so um i feel like that's actually one of the best ways to like experience what something tastes like i just don't usually like it once i start smoking because those stages to me they like mostly go downhill like i'm open to be proved by like a specific sample you know i guess though one one benefit is that it does give you like some additional data points i mean it may be like really trivial in the end but maybe that white ash maybe yeah there's the white ash thing there's like okay maybe this type of flower seems to progress bitter you know it doesn't go downhill yes quite as much as other ones that kind of thing um i guess i'm just bringing it back to like you know this this is also another way of thinking about all the different ways you can try to evaluate your flower we obviously didn't talk about like how how well it extracts and all that stuff obviously that's like another another kind of like metric you could use yeah yeah that goes back to like the rosin thing like rosin is just such a pain in the ass trait to breed for because it's not only growing the plants and identifying the resin traits there's also all the post harvest evaluation side of it that's not just like oh is this dank you're like no then i have to go through a whole separate process of turning it into the best hash i can you know and i'm not an expert hash maker at all and so like it sucks when i have to do it you know what i mean um yeah i'm hoping i can pick up some skills from some of the people on here and just get some practice you know but um it is like its own whole beast and so um it's uh it's interesting i haven't made heads or tails of it yet but you know what i mean like it's not as simple as taking one five-percent washer and crossing it to another because you don't even know if they like wash for the same reason and so evaluation can take like so many um different like you know it can have so many faces to it um but going back to the joint flavor and stuff like that's one thing i love about like jack types and trainwreck and stuff is those flavors do last through a joint and like j1 too j1's really nice for that um that's it's really enjoyable when you do get those those experiences yeah man terpinoline bro that shit like lasts forever yeah it's great especially because you can get like sweet bubblegum terpinoline like that's one of my favorite things right now is that it's like you can have a lot of different nuance on terpinoline or like mango terpinoline you know and so um i think that's another not well explored avenue because people think tealine is just tealine and it's like no i i disagree at this point now oh totally dude it's it's like the i don't know it it's the everything turf right for real yeah yeah more than mercy yeah i love it man okay it's it's divisive like i've had arguments friends about it and stuff like that because i i agree it can be present in boring situations like i've had a couple of bags of stuff that was just like you know not decent smoke at all like if it pops up where you don't want it you know what i mean exactly a bunch of og hybrids and it utilized um one of the parents on one side had like the cat piss in it which i think is uh san diego cat piss so it's like a super silver haze cart of sorts and so like all throughout verge i'm getting this nice like lime fuely sort of aroma and then as it all capped off pretty much all them cured out to like a terpinoline sort of smells in that instance i didn't like it but man i love it like some of the favorite smokes i've had like the dutch haze in amsterdam from coffee shops like the better haze i had over there was like the tealine smell i didn't see too much of the a5 kind of stuff but um yeah even over here man like yeah some of the more preferred plants i've found have had terpinoline in it for sure but but i'm um it's interesting with flavor like getting back to like vaping and smoking sorry i missed that part i fucking i got like a nerve thing at the moment i'm all yeah fucked up we're at um flavor like some weed man like seems to be the stuff that's more hashy i prefer smoking so like i predominantly vape if you get something that's got like that hashy or like the cushions tend to do it like that jager cut even has it a little bit it seems to like cling to the palate and you know i mean it's uh i don't know compared to other stuff you taste it where it's just like you know a smoke or a cool smoke flavor or even like the more stringent shit like some stuff i've had that super citrusy i don't like smoking it just at that temperature i don't know it does something to the mouth feel but in a vaporizer it's all fine like because i really like vaping like i've had a vape for i don't know five or six years like had the crafty from stores and bickerel that one's these for a portable and then i've got like one of those ball vapes now which are like the tabletop ones with the um the little hammer and like the rubies and shit that heat up and that shit's next level like it's similar to that v-rip thing that that matt has i guess and for in terms of like getting turps and stuff out of it and um and effect as well yeah those that she rips does the job um maybe this is encouraging me to go back to using my vape a bit more because like i i go in and out of it but i think especially when i've just got some like freshly harvested flour it's probably a really good time to pull it out well it's good to assess as well like in both ways i think like you said before like smoking and vaping it like you know when you really get down to the nitty gritty of like sorting between like a couple of phenos you know see how it works both ways like we did a little um canna competition not even a fucking competition man that's a wank but just a bunch of us like ten of us in the other discord that you're in we did like a little you know uh trade and share sort of thing and with each sample of that i'll try one you know just smoking in the bong whatever i'm one in the vape but um man i have to admit it would be an unpopular opinion but every once in a while i will put a little bit of tobacco into a joint as well blasphemy uh no i'm not in the bong man fuck that i'm not that i'm okay i'm having like a bit of red wine or something it's been a nice meal you know it's a cool night i'll put a little bit of tobacco in but it's gonna be good weed like if it tastes like shit and it's going like you know just be completely covered by it um not into it but but yeah i was a fan of that american spirit tobacco because i lived in fucking europe man for like a year and a bit you know everyone over there smokes that way i smoked america spirit when i was traveling there yeah it was deep yeah i was gonna say actually like hash and tobacco man that is a really interesting combination like sometimes you could really taste like the hash like i mean i don't make like any sort of like special i just use a fucking trim trim screen and and use that but like even that makes with tobacco dude it's super fucking nice tasting and i don't i don't smoke tobacco either so no i mean either no i don't smoke cigarettes or anything but yeah no i hash and tobacco at this next level like in in Amsterdam the pre-rolled ones that they'd sell at the coffee shops for shithouse because it'd be like you know like the tiniest little bliver hash and like two cigarettes but yeah rolling yourself with some decent hash like decent hash making a snake in the middle and stuff yeah beautiful because it completely covers the flavor and it's i don't know it's and it's unbridled you know you're not having to mix it with um you know a different cannabis variety you know because it's not like you've got like the sift off that same fucking plan unless you're growing it yourself at home maybe i'm just a degenerate but i love taking bong rips of those fifties the mokes wait what do you what do you mean it's like half weed half tobacco i don't really do it much anymore i've heard mokes i've heard mousse i've heard um god i've heard a few other ones too not so i was called them fifties like i don't fucking know man i've heard a bunch of different names but it's all the same and it's i heard i watched the documentary and i think it was oregano some shit and it was like a concerned parents thing yeah all these kids like mixing their balls like 50 50 in the woods and like passing out and shit man it was crazy yeah if you're not ready you're gonna nod back like here it's gonna rip your head off yeah yeah that's more like the fucking rule than the exception like it's probably going out of it now but for the most part most oh man i remember doing that with like gravity bongs and stuff yeah doing like three liter poles and stuff man like i think it was like bodie you said like in um like in his travels like into the like the Himalayan areas like i don't know if that was napal or what but like he said that like they um they say that like yeah the weed makes you high but the tobacco keeps your feet on the ground something like that i always liked that that little sand oh yeah i remember like it mellows that it mellows the the harshness or like you know what i mean sometimes you're just like floating away floating away high yeah lost like intro you know introverted and mute i don't know about it like if you're not used to it fucking out like i want to move yeah like i did an exchange in europe for like 12 months at school and then move back and then my mates come and visited me and i hadn't smoked tobacco in like six months and i remember that first split that was fucking higher than i've been in a long time like it hits differently when you haven't had it for a while but that's why i like to not do it now it's just if i'm drinking for the most part you know what i mean like same yeah the inhibitions go down and you're like fuck it who's got a cigarette i've always found it to be mild it's like a mildly psychedelic for me because i don't like since i don't smoke tobacco at all dude that nicotine fucks me up oh dude that rushes yeah it's not yeah small i like to dip so it's not that bad for me so oh dude it's it's excellent dude it's i almost compare it more to an opiate to for me though and like my personal experience because like it feels like a very short-lived like opiate lethargy you know just like gone on the couch no i get that i understand that yeah um i will say that like it actually does bring me some joy that we got so far off track because yeah typically i'm i'm really anal about these shows but i've actually been waiting for a good opportunity to like just let let let people go off and just we just talk about whatever um but i think that like we're coming to the end of the two hours and i don't know um booze you did have a few other questions about more like um some of the mechanics maybe or tactics when you're breeding selecting i don't know if you want to go into those or we should just like wrap it here like call it here um oh it's just more like the whole thing man is that it's fairly fucking multifaceted and very open to discussion as well like selection in general it's like i could prep the whole thing with like you know from selecting the pack of seeds to the way you grow it to the light and everything you know like it's pretty fucking open but just like yeah in the i guess tail end of it all right once you've made before you go into that sorry booze one last thing i'll say is that one thing i have definitely learned now this is like the fifth breeding episode i've done it's really hard to say you're going to talk about this like one part of breeding without talking about all the other parts um i think i'm like starting to understand that like for some of these episodes you know the like outline is probably only like you know useful to like a degree after which it's like you know like you say there's so many dimensions so many parameters and like variables that like you just end up having to loop around but yeah sorry that was just me like tidying up you're a good brother you keep the ship steady i like it admin fault oh man dude i don't know um yeah i mean did you want to ask any of those questions because some of them are interesting and i would be kind of curious to know what these guys think so maybe this is the way to round it out yeah for sure man yeah so like once you've made your selections you know what i mean you've you've gone through say a couple packets of seeds or whatever and you've come out with a few numbers like are you going to run those from clone a couple of times like what's your consideration after that you know what i mean like how many times basically do you want to see that thing perform are you going to try and dial it in like how quick are you to throw things away do you guys generally keep like multiple things from a run and run it again a few times just to narrow it down and make sure you haven't like fucked up underwooded whatever along the way yeah i i like the way that this guy has has taught me um here one second good night buddy sorry my son's gone to bed but um breeding should almost always be about like um omissions more than selections when you're at like a really large scale because like it's about like honing things down slowly so you don't miss so like there's usually a few plans that you can throw away because you're like oh that is that is some garbage it doesn't smell good doesn't taste good the effect was kind of meh you know it's weed but um and so i kind of like that that model of like not so much making selections as much as like figuring out what to get rid of and that way it's not such a hard decision because you're not wondering of what could be you're actually looking at what you can see and like what's right in front of you instead of like well is it possible that this could be in there kind of thing um but like i think you also said like how do you like do the numbers i like to like narrow it slowly and so like say i run you know a ten pack of seeds i found three that i liked i'll probably go and fill my four by four ten with a few clones of each of those you know what i mean because it's actually kind of nice to see um if there's any slight variation or like i don't know i feel like it gives you a better idea of what you're looking at from an individual when you've got like four side by side it just like for me that helps me just like delineate and like you were mentioning earlier of like grouping plants in categories you know like that that also is kind of where i'm doing this where i'm like okay like i'll try and pick the best out of each category so i'm not like comparing you know very subtle nuance more that just like i've got a few different plants you know what i mean and i'm like i like this one for this reason this one for that and then like at the end that's the hard part where it's like oh i'm comparing apples to oranges kind of but they're all from the same line and i can't hold all of them forever i don't have enough edge space and i'm like you i hold on to stuff way longer than i should and so i'm trying to get better about that but i think by like breeding by omission can be like a useful tool in that okay man what about you local you got a cold hot you just throw things away what do you think he's probably got like 90 solo cups in his place man yeah i don't know man it's it's tough because right now i'm kind of in that quote on quote collection yeah staged like i mean like growing seeds and fine and keeping stuff from that um but like i don't know like i wish i had kept something for example from the sure best one but you know i'm gonna have to pop another pack unfortunately because like there are just like some there's just a lot of shit that sometimes i can't clone or not like physically can't clone but it's just like do i realistically need everything from this run you know what i mean like i don't know because some grows are just like pop it see what it is and move on you know yeah just a little data point good reference point exactly um but i don't know it's hard to pick keepers man it really is especially when you're you get a little critical about it and this is where like i mean it's obvious but there really is a limit to the kind of like formal kind of like data-driven side of this right there's a part where that just has to end like we said earlier and we just then relying on your like instinct yeah got some kind of like act of god like role of the dice you know random arbitrary decision as the other usually is like a hard deadline and like the scale stuff where it's like no no no decision has to be made by this time and sometimes it's really hard and like you say it's a gut decision it's instinct it's like what you know and so like that's when i start leaning on like which one's the most potent because if i've screened them out chances are if they make it to those final steps that they're all pretty damn good and so that's when i start really honing in on effect where i'm just like i really love this and do other people also like the effect and like you know it's good to be able to outsource some of that to the masses or just even the people your friends with or work with whatever and start crowdsourcing those those types of notes but i honestly think it's the breeder's job at the end of the day to make that call and to to stick by what they know and what they think and that that gut instinct because that's kind of like what you're developing right is just like you don't always have a reason but you're just like i like this plant and for me that's kind of served me pretty well i was also going to say that i typically find that there's like an instant bias between the plant that you have your ion like when it's growing and when it like comes out in flower like i often find that that correlates heavily for some reason i don't know if that's just me and my biases but i don't know it's like a keeper it it's like it's paramount you know as boos said at the beginning yeah i always kind of gravitate to the the production ones that are pretty easy to grow because they look so good they usually smell good but i i usually find them a little lackluster in the smoke department compared to some of their runty pain in the ass sisters um but i've been growing some weird shit until more more recently i'm excited to be a little more on the map and out of my own little projects for a while because it's nice to go through that exploration phase every few years and just find some more cool cuts from projects your buddies have done and stuff like that thousand are you hanging on to any clones like i know you're not growing like massive numbers or anything but how do you gravitate like when you're popping seeds are you thinking all right i'm gonna you know hang up like am i looking for someone to keep is that your idea or are you sort of just having a look until maybe a later date when it's more conducive to to keep and shit i'm so i'm like i have been provisioning for it and i am rerunning some glass onion stuff right now um as well as this like recent born in one of the born in the purples um that i liked um yeah for me it's hard like it's hard to know how long i can keep anything um i had some very very yeah you all three know that some like very severe like spatial constraints but i'm still testing the limits of it uh i can at the moment like in my nursery quote-unquote i've got like maybe like six plants in there six individuals um so i can keep a small number um but i don't think i've done this long enough to kind of really have seen any patterns yet if that makes sense like yeah at this point i think all i'm interested in is just seeing how different the clones do like for now you know and just kind of getting like a general appreciation for it like i remember asking if i'm a dan uh and just in a voice chat once like about how he saw those differences and i think one of the interesting things he mentioned to me was and correct me if i'm wrong dan like uh for a lot of clones it takes like six months for them to sort of stabilize for the hormones to stabilize or whatever and at that point you know they tend to be more stable but if you've just taken them um they may still behave and grow and express quite a lot like the seed plot am i correct dan? yeah for sure and i think on some of the longer flowering stuff i've noticed it more um but it's kind of like i don't know if i'm just like reading into something i've heard the guy say that was like an old dutch saying or whatever you know what i mean that um uh that you know you want to like a plant that's from the equatorial region has no like light change pressure no environmental pressure from cold that's going to kill it off and so there's like this super elongated time clock for the plant where before it's like ready to flower whereas like something from the northern latitudes it has to flower by a certain date to flower by a certain date to then like die and so i feel like it's kind of like in that kind of realm that's like how i conceptualize it you know what i mean is like what was this like gene pool like originally doing to any extent it's hard to say on like a modern one you know but um i've definitely noticed it on some longer flowering stuff even like blue dream types and um you can kind of see it in certain seeds like when you grow outside is that like i've popped seeds in like september and they didn't flip for like a month even though their seedlings outside when there's only like 12 and a half hours of light you know and so like they have these built-in clocks in them to some degree i think that i don't think yeah yeah that i don't think that we like fully understand and so i like to kind of just let my seedlings chill for a while like i've been blown away by how fast some people have gotten full-sized flowering plants from a seed pack on the server and i'm just like nope i'm still in my four incher over here man just letting her go and so um maybe it's because i'm not in a rush um but um i don't know yeah i kind of like to let things sit for a while yeah i think for me like booze sort of already kind of indicated towards this but i think earlier on i just was hungry to see more variety right just for the first few years i still am that's all i wanted yeah and i'm sure you still and that it's not like that desire is gone but i think that there is it's now being increasingly counterpointed with that tension of like well surely you want to see some more like some of the same stuff too you know yeah and again too so it's like trying to balance that is yeah interesting as well yeah like i always love fuel every time someone gives me even if it's like a super purple zah like when it's fuel i love it you know and i'm like i'll smoke that yeah give me a jar yeah yeah there's certain things that never go out of style and fuel is one of those things and i think i'm just getting to that point of starting to understand what it is that i like and and maybe not even quite why yet but yeah yeah so yeah now i've been on a journey the same way i've just been growing whatever growing staples and smoking staples forever so it's a good baseline but it's like what do you actually want to smoke and so i always default to kems and oj's because like that's what gets me there but like i'm sure there's plenty of other stuff i'm pretty excited about some of the high and low and some stuff i've gotten and um some of the blueberry stuff i've yet to run and the blue dream crosses and stuff so that's right you got some bonnet f2s did you not as well yeah yeah you gave me an extra pack too so now i've got like um 30 to go through something like that i think there are 10 packs each i got the box here that he sent me but yeah he sent me all kinds of goodies i was really stoked that i got some uh some gittle mountain dew because um i've heard some of the guys on here talk about that and i was like man i feel like i missed out on that one because the dog shit is one of those curious cuts to me that i have not really experienced at all um but for them some of the pictures i've seen i'm like oh that's right up my alley man that electric boogaloo is uh it's got my number any final thoughts i'm good brother fucking mostly just yeah you know end of the day fuck what any of us said just select what you like yeah exactly yeah yeah i think this ended up being quite a cool conversation like i think um we ended up i think you know more or less gesturing towards all the like not all but a lot of the kind of critical decisions and decision points you may encounter in selections what some of the initial considerations are um and really we did just talk about breeding as a whole um but i think where i liked us going that wasn't prepared i didn't expect rather was like i think it was cool to get each of your reflections on like what you thought a good direction or strategy would be um as well just hearing about some of your your more personal tastes and yeah especially when it gets down to that like we said that impasse in selection where you're like information is not going to help me anymore i think that's all really interesting that like probably doesn't get talked about enough um in like breeding conversations so yeah really cool um if nothing else i'm going to start shouting out um maybe before that any shout outs from you guys no i just did my whole set the other day so i'm good for right now just fucking shout out to you man appreciate getting us through this one moderating it around and and matt hope he's getting better soon yeah for real yeah absolutely shout out to matt yeah sorry he's not feeling well and yeah yeah um yeah thank you so much you guys it was really fun and like we haven't had you know this this combination of people on before but like this is a great team um and we will be seeing all of them again really soon uh farmer down at local probably sooner uh because we're gonna do that z episode you could even tell in this one like they were both sort of already starting to talk about it um but yeah we're gonna we're gonna have a z episode a dedicated one which will be fun um yeah you yeah you know it's gonna be it's gonna be a good one i'm excited for that there might even be like the next one we record potentially i'll be in touch yeah for sure man i'm ready yeah so otherwise why is see you yeah go i was just gonna say thanks for having us steed oh man my pleasure all three of you i love talking to but anytime um okay so shout out to uh no shout out um get you see some ride seats calm i believe high and low some just had a new drop i believe park might be having a drop soon um in the next few months perhaps uh ride seek out europe if you're in europe uh good by seeds uh run by a very own matt booze over here uh for australia um do check out our disco discord and patreon if you're interested in joining us uh as we've implied and gestured to many many times over the course of these episodes lots of cool conversations and interactions going on over there all the time and last but not least we have the codex um go check that out um i'll be bugging matt to add stuff to it as we go on and we'll probably have to do another episode soon just to kind of give you all an update only that's going um but otherwise yeah thank you all so much um i assume you're listening to this on your friday evening for most of you and yeah hope you have a good weekend thank you everyone yeah thank you bro basement want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch i've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicatehere.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from ig and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out