All right, and we should be live Okay, all right Hope everybody had a good Christmas Hopefully everybody will have a happy new year. I expect 2021 will probably be better than 2020 I'm hoping so Yeah, we can expect we hope to Yeah, it was a okay week for me this past week, you know with the Christmas holidays spent some time with the family and Didn't do much as far as the the channels for its content took a couple days to spend time with With the family we actually did get together Because we couldn't really get together a month ago here for Thanksgiving, which is a big US holiday typically Families get together and we couldn't get together for that. Well, we were able to get together for Christmas and exchange gifts and Went hunting a couple of times Here in the last couple of weeks Which is something I haven't done a lot of because this time of year hunting season deer hunting season, especially typically is the biggest Work season of the the retail season when I was working in retail So I haven't actually had a chance to really do any hunting in years.  You wanted to talk about either centos or windows today? I believe well, I've got to plug the wonderful glory of windows. It is definitely operating system that everybody should be using, right? Which version The latest and greatest windows 10 it turns out that it turns out that last time you guys saw me My version of windows was out of date and I had to update it and then I had to do this Archaic thing of restarting my computer to apply the updates. Mm-hmm. It was very weird I can explain why that happens. You have to restart windows. Oh, yeah It's how their file system works Yeah, windows has bunch of protections against writing, which is Only thing I actually agree about out windows compared to Linux that the protection right protections when file is open are So harsh compare things where can file is open. You can do whatever you want with it Yes, and I've ran into multiple various other issues with my windows installation So this this month. I'm no longer the window shill I am the guy that desperately hits my wind windows installation And it's probably gonna be a reinstalling a Linux after we get done with this conversation Cuz turns out that windows does not like it when you put the computer to a hibernated state for over two weeks Yeah, yeah, it does it does not appreciate that It doesn't even seem to appreciate it overnight most nights because I go to turn on my computer next thing I know I have no audio and then okay, so we ruby at the computer audio works on desktop But now it's not working my own OBS capture and like okay, so what's going on here? Wow, did Windows did Windows adopt pulse audio? What's going on there? I think Windows. I think Windows has adopted an alpha build of pipe wire. Oh Basically fedora then huh? Yeah, basically but fedora is on beta not not alpha. Mm-hmm Is it haven't had that problem prop crop up yet? I can't comment on how great the windows file system is Are they still using a TTFS? NFS is grabbed by the way they handle writes is sorry, but reality is better than Linux because things things happen when you write stuff and having right protection on Stuff that are already being read is better because Linux that has to clutch them clutch them up like for example lock files for App that's shit like that Those are clutched together things you just need to remove the lock file you can do whatever you want with apt again That's a feature not a bug though That's that that's definitely a bad thing. There are no such thing as things as bugs or errors. They're just unintended features Oh Once people start using them. They're definitely features Are you guys excited about the the new version of Pac-Man coming out soon? That's gonna allow a parallel downloading for your arch packages Pac-Man didn't have that already it doesn't know So they're really excited about that it's gonna be like the biggest change in arch ever Yeah, if you have a good enough connection, well, obviously you need internet I'm still waiting for somebody to actually come out with a bit based With the bit protocol with it which I don't know the actual name of it But the bit torn protocol. Yeah, just have a package manager that uses that I'm still waiting for I don't expect it to actually ever happen and actually be be a proper use for it But I'm waiting for it. I have one. It's not a package manager, but it's an updater for an operating system Windows update. Yes. That's that Windows update on that actually. Oh, okay. If you enable you can Why I'm normally that's just inside your network. So there is no security issues there But you can once you download it on one system you can share share that among all other systems You know, I think I actually saw that the other day I was looking for how to like make Windows update better which by the way you cannot make Windows update better I think you could actually I think you could write a tool that automatically takes people to distro watch calm and you present them with The top 100 and you ask them to pick and then from there you update their system. Oh Okay, well speaking of distro watch I'm gonna go over to distro watch and hit the random distribution button Yeah, I don't do that because sometimes you get dead distributions, but but PIS I guess I just call that pissy Like what? It's based it's based off of Partis Linux. We're gonna download this and this is gonna be the first distribution that we install. I Don't know if it's a dead project or not Usually it'll tell you whether it's active or not But they have hundreds of them listed that are no longer active so But we're gonna we're gonna download this distribution next time we talk. I will give you my review on it Hmm. I promise. I haven't actually haven't looked at the distro watch Page it rankings in a while Zmec still on top. It looks like it is They make sense then mangera then mines Yeah, papa with us. Yeah a boon to them Debian Wow And then for Dora As a chain in the past year, so I haven't really looked at it. I don't know. I always laugh at that list Because there's there's so many I mean when you talk about server install so many millions and millions of Boon to and Debian servers out there, especially Yeah, how is mx manjaro and mint and papa with us? Oh Now yeah, because that was my go-to any time I Spun up any kind of web server the only distributions I would even consider were Debian sent us or a boom to LTS and now sent us. I wouldn't consider that now I'm going to say that we should probably wait a bit before Automatically banning send us from our list of server Sent us dude, it's about it's about the mentality of the company's who is taking over the free so fear and open source open source project Doesn't matter the open to is just another company like red hat. I mean, they are great They are good. There is no doubt about that. They are supporting the open source community But whenever they took any part of the open source technologies, they just Killed us in no time. Well, the good thing is you have a great community server distribution out there Debian Yeah, yeah Obviously a corporation can always backtrack like with sent us people deployed that thing thinking they had 10 years of support and obviously not Yeah, there's a problem with the deviant at the moment that many of like commercial companies like LHM plus score this actually does support I went to not deviant itself, but Everday chain is one of the like Biggest company for their posting automation and they have no support for for deviant They just thinking to add open to and deviant by the next origin, which is kind of a lot around the year so it's just Just make no sense to hold in this story I see that there are some folks like clothing who's gonna fork centers and create their own operating system But as far as I can tell as a server Administrator and software developer in my opinion centers is dead. It was dead What went when the red hat took it over because I'll be used to me They're gonna kill the project, but no, it's dead that I'm at my insta centers on any server anymore Just I remember that Debian will never truly die because what will happen is that if the Debian is king probably ever running for me my whole if Debian ever falls apart There's gonna be 1700 forks of it and everybody's just They're going to fall into support of Devon and find out that those people are just cancer to work with because it's just a protest distro so then they're going to fork Devon and then make their own and They might call it something like monkey Lennox or whatever so yeah So for everybody that is a fan of Devon Josh's comments or his own they do not reflect the thoughts and I have been in the IRC chat channel I'm gonna get hate now and I will be honest I Do not ever want to go into the IRC chat channel for that for the Devon team again what to be honest The Debian community if you hang out and some of their support forms are not different. I've made that comment So I will say it the Debian forums the Debian IRC Those are not the friendliest places. So the dev one people probably are just some of those people They're just worse because they're also Protest distro kind of people Yeah Honestly if Debian keeps going the state that's going now, I really don't see it actually staying as A consistent distro in the next ten years just because I did you try the seed version for example? I Have I have tried said Don't try said Just install arch I've installed Sid so many times over the years and I would agree if you want a rolling release distro Install a proper rolling release distro because yeah, you know things like arch engine to or built to be rolling release distros Don't go installed Debian, which is all about that stable server version and then go to their unstable branch and expect things to be great I mean if you want a rolling release style of distro that Pract that preaches stability like Debian does Just install open sews. Yeah, I would work There are some definition about about the rolling release title and how how And always match your you know daily work for me arch is really great I mean as a rolling release distro But it is always behind the Debian in terms of package version Well, yeah as it just takes so long for for anyone even the pro one to create You know useful OS auto of arch you have to configure these and that in install this and that By the way, the people just hate themselves like that though Yeah I mean the Debian for me as a developer and as a server administrator the Debian the Debian for me is just The seed version is just install it and just get on with my life Like I developed me the Python and and Django every day And it's always came with the latest version of Python out of the box So I don't need to you know compile the Python myself and just hopping between the different version myself and stuff Oh, it's just based on the use case Of course, the arch is the greatest in the rolling Speaking of which Eric and Chad just posted something interesting a rolling release server if you want a rolling release server Until a stream. Yeah You know what? I'm saying more hosting providers actually offer arch servers. You do see those out there Yeah, I think digital ocean offer like arch when they first came around And I think Linode even did for like the first six weeks and they quickly dropped arch for some reason really Yeah, I think well what Linode does is a Linode uses a squid proxy to pre-cache Capture all the updates and I think it had something to do with the fact that at the time Linode only had the one data center That they operated out of and they were getting so many package updates from the various distributions because when Linode opened up they had something like 50 plus distributions that they that they were offering and These I would I would imagine it has to have something to do with like the sheer aggressiveness of like the package of like the AUR and arch repository package updates because they cached everything Yeah So that's what I'm assuming that would make sense is probably rough on their their bandwidth You know just people constantly updating their arch servers Yeah, I mean I was I was watching the arch video of it a couple of weeks ago I tried to install the arch from my laptop and I mean it I mean with the eye tree and and and the window Manager I mean I couldn't I mean I'm I'm just doing the software development and Server management for like 25 years by now and it just it was rocket science for me You know to go through all of this is that just configuring the desktop OS And of course the result would be magnificent because you have your own version of everything for the desktop for you know Everything but for me just the OS is an essential part of what I do I'm just I just want to install and just you know get over with my life with my life Which is software development. So I'm not focused on my OS that much That being those I'm happy with it We all know that if you really want to hate yourself just install arch completely forget to install xorg and just Install window manager and then for try to figure out why it's not working because most window managers do not actually cite any errors if xorg is missing Yeah I mean, it's just so complicated. You know despite you know, I have devian install on my desktop and laptop for like Five years now. Well, I've installed arch enough times That I can pretty much go through the installation Probably without even reading the wiki And get it up and running Pretty quickly, but even that being said most of the time If I want a quick like VM of arch, I'm not going to install arch and install manjaro or arco I am very lazy with my arch distributions I literally have an eye I literally have a disc image that I just flash onto my computer And it's already installed arch with the known desktop and every time I install it The first thing I do is just pack main dash s by yu because I'm a savage Was that you mentioned the open suzi? I did. Hmm. Yeah, open suzi open suzi is a great one, but let's uh, let's Divide the distros these two the centoes And and and red hat and open suzi to different part of the planet the europe and united states Open suzi is kind of more more on like german side europe side and and and the other one is just Based on the us, you know And it just for me the open suzi is really great. It's just working but uh, I'm always Just being confused by all of this package manager We should basically do the same thing of this window manager You don't use the open suzi package manager in the command line. You just use yas Yeah, they asked. I mean Yeah, the basically is is I mean my first question always from for me is that why there should be a yas when there is a apT why there should be The yam when there is apT. I'm they do the same thing Combine all of these together. We would be the windows by now No, believe not, but yas exists for a very specific reason Yes exists because it's a part of the overall control scheme for suzi suzi enterprise Which allows you to actually Do high level control of the system for system administrators in the company You can even have unintended installs and a lot of control which are all handled by yas so Packaging is just one ash aspect of yas that most people just most people just see just that aspect But there are way easier easier things to do that I mean if dt helped me there are like even distros comes with the scripting So as an administrator, you can just uh deploy like hundreds of linux with the pre-built script in blink of eyes I don't see why yas should be well when you're working with the enterprise The efficiency of the distro really does not matter nearly as much as the support behind it Yeah Deb the the main reason why you don't see a lot of people talking about like the devian controversies right now Is simply because red hat and susa exist Uh, that's really I you guys tried the enterprise os like red hat and then opens to the enterprise version I I tried I paid for it once I have paid for red hat in the past yeah, I tried both of them and and What you say about the support it's just it's not there. I mean it's not that it's not the fact that it actually exists It's the fact that it exists on paper and that's what that's what the financial any ventures Five years ago. I'm really happy with susa support. It was really good But the last year I tried to find the support agent for my uh for my one-by-server It wasn't even gone through. I mean Yeah, this susie company just got over with like eight different company over like four years You have to just call different number and they just shoot you on the different number and different number again You can't find and you can get a hold of anyone there so The way that you get support for sus is that you literally just get an email address for one of the developers Yeah That's really the best way to do it both of the companies the red hat and susie Using the single single team for handling all the support. There is no red hat and that said if you ever need assistance with a butter fs Just go to the butter fs uh Get repos get the get like half the email addresses there are all susa employees I got I got a very good support from the community of the open susie What I had to enterprise susie on my service. There was more support from the community than the than the paid one I'm still old school. Does anybody belong to mailing lists anymore because I'm I'm just subscribed to the arch mailing list You guys do I'm on devian. I'm on ubuntu. I'm on open sus. I'm I'm on most of them. Yeah Same here. I'm even on a curl because that's a mistake I know it's not modern. I know the kids probably would hate a mailing list, but I kind of like them I remember receiving package updates in letters in the mail So Well About the support in the enterprise of the software The point is you have support on paper. So you have you have something to go back on if everything fails Yep, that's why enterprises choose support operations that have Some sort of support I I have I have had enough of Exposure, that's why I know why why people will choose windows not because It is a good operating system because it has support for software and most importantly it has behind it A corporation an enterprise and it has behind it. Yeah, there's one name and not a thousand Yeah, that's that's what matters and you have to call Microsoft for getting support I have called Microsoft for support recently My windows my windows activation failed on me.  Oh, okay. I wouldn't know I've never used my well I would expect Microsoft is now what a 1.5 trillion dollar company I would expect that you could get somebody on the phone instantly I would hope The point of having a server. I mean, I'm not talking about the client side the client side, of course I mean you're all like bunch of people You know answering the phone for for you for the server side when things get really, you know Serious about the problems you have with the server, which is every time is a critical problems When you when you call Microsoft for getting help All you get is that they just the maximum help they offer to you is just providing some articles or maybe watching your screen Because they are not allowed to touch anything on your server. Basically And it just it just I mean for me as a server administrator I mean I I never I never got a real support from either Microsoft or any of these enterprise links Although I get many support from the Amazon support team, you know, it's was much better than either of them And even the open source project like CentOS or or devian or even on the paid always like Microsoft one I got the best support. I mean from them as a third party company who is the cloud provider the aws team Compared to the actual software vendor, which is the red hat or Microsoft Well, it sounds like what you're trying to say is ultimately you have to support yourself. You can't really depend on these Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, just remember last ditch measure, but for company They need that say they wanted that safety net. That's the reality situation. They wanted safety net because Hey, if we're talking about safety nets, we have to remember for the safety net is nothing All right, if we're talking about safety nets, we have to remember that lawyers are going to be cheaper than anything else Yeah, I mean, uh I have I have I have this one server for for almost 10 years ago CentOS server I'm not touching that server. It's just running and I have this Microsoft server Which is constantly need the support update patch reboot and other stuff So when it's come to the support, I think it's depend on on how how you want to implement your infrastructure I mean, uh, you can go with Microsoft Which of course you need the support because on every update they're gonna mess up with something And then some driver and some patch and some, you know changes which you don't want to And and you can stick with something that is work So just in my opinion paying for a support in any operating system. It's just paying for a lie of having Someone on your side when something happens, which is not true I had to recover many server myself during the night and days of working Although it was paid or or or A commercial distro or operating system. Well, yeah, as the people I actually know what Yeah, as people actually know the know about the thing that the uh monitored the keyboard and the mouse are attached to We care about that but the people that don't even know how to properly use a keyboard to close a window Yeah, that's good for them You are beholden to those people. That's the reality of the situation if you work in a company if you work in a bigger company those that would want a safety net You're automatically beholden. You're right. Even if you're the boss of the IT department at the end of the day your boss The CEO He probably doesn't even know what keyboard is or if he knows he knows how to use it to open Email and that's it and for those people They they want that safety net because reality is that money you're gonna spend for that safety net Is nothing compared to what they could lose if they didn't have it But at the end of the day if every if shit hit the fan And if they didn't have that support they have that safety net what would happen with the company and then they Company could stop existing because everything is Computers nowadays So you mean you mean if if there is no support all the companies in the planet gonna stop I mean No That's what that's what the the people think the people who actually control stuff like this. That's what I have an objection here DT or other people just help me Uh, you guys just open source guys I don't I don't see that DT gonna any stock any red hat on his infrastructure in the home office or you are guys I mean if you have I have no objection, but I mean DT here is the guy who who actually knows the arch, you know All the way to the end of the day Even if someone and DT If someday arch open a company and ask for enterprise, you know support are you gonna pay for them DT? I don't think so Also, you guys that work in it the the people that actually make the decisions as far as budget Do they that's me? Okay, well you you probably know a little more than what most people making those decisions do though because there are some people making those decisions That that don't know anything about computers or you know, that that's the other I have to say that I'm the CEO and also the IT guys. So okay.  Yeah IT team is Is someone you you need there and if you could you would crash them because But promise those guys that think that The thing that IT teams are there to to waste money and space Those are the same guys who made the decisions and they they were Rather pay for Someone who will just be there. So it is there Pay him Instead of someone who is Actually smart And doesn't need the safety net, but they will just pay for the safety net because Well, that's that's why they think if something happens, we need it I don't The whole idea about the safety net and the computer security. It's just a Thing for me, which is never exist. I mean as a white hat hacker Just give me give me a lead on any server Os you wish with all tape of the protection you you want to put on top of that And I can I can give you whatever you want inside that server to in 24 hours So for me the safety net the server protection just the meat. I mean It's about server protection. It's about it's about them trying to cover their back It isn't about uh protection is about and about security. It's about Uh, if if something happens if something breaks Then they want to have a safety net. They want to have something to go That's my point. There is no one There's no one there even if there's no one there the person that made the decision to buy that support contract can say well Hey, I paid for support. It may not be there, but that's not my problem You know, right? Yeah You are the one when I fix the problem for them. No And sometimes it's just uh paying for someone to blame when something breaks. Yeah Oh, it's not that the cio needs a funnel Yeah, I'm seeing this in chat right now the cio the cio doesn't need a phone number for somebody to call the cio No, who knows who to call he calls the it department, right?  He doesn't even give you the option to call them. He says fix us get it running now Yeah, yeah, and that's when his interaction with this stuff ends fix it and then you have options of Calling for example red hat because that's why you you company pay them or fixing yourself Of course, you're gonna fix it yourself But the the cio doesn't know what you're gonna do. He doesn't care for him when when he Yeah, I know they don't go down in there stops They don't they don't really think I care about about who's gonna fix this They just wanted to fix but the problem is there when you just You know when you're sitting as an IT administrator in the department and someone calls you about something broken And and you have two options wasting your time by calling a company like red hat And trying to find someone like after two hours on the phone Which is gonna at the end just sit on his desk and watch your screen And and just say I cannot touch anything on your server because it's against our policy Or just do yourself an ask from the community or search the google or any search engine Of you prefer to find a solution yourself. I mean, I tried it Absolutely no actual support the best support. I got in my whole 35 years of being an IT guy. I mean it was It was Stack overflow is where you were going. Yes A No, there is absolutely no support from the red hat from Microsoft Yes, but you know that I know that but the ceo doesn't know because he doesn't want to know because for him I think the ceos are kind of a kind of smart people right now I'm talking about the people who are investing lots of money in different market for for instance In my company, I'm not gonna name any company or in brand for myself In terms of advertisement, but in my company, I have my partner who is working in the printing industry and He knows like not much about the computer But his idea of about you know about having which software when and how it just Overcomes all I know about the business and computer all together So I don't see that the ceos are down people, you know that much. Yes When talking about the ceos like in 10 years ago, they were so down I just needed an email address to to collaborate with their business partner right now Uh, I know many ceos that running different value software for communications messaging, you know Even using the ai or reporting and stuff. So they are not that down They know what they pay for and and how to use it. I would say 10 years ago. Yes I would agree with you Maybe in some part of the world, you know that there are still some people, you know with same, you know Thoughts about computer and IT But the majority of the people and ceos just so smart I mean, we cannot say they don't know anything about the computer or they just pay for, you know, just paying for something well, let's uh Let's switch topics for a bit. So, uh, because this will be the last chat we do here for this year What were the biggest linux stories of 2020 now? I was struggling to come up with some of the biggest Stories of the past year had sent us not died this week. It would have been tough, obviously I think now that's probably the biggest uh linux story of 2020 Does anybody else think the only other thing I would mention As I did think microsoft edge coming to linux as much as I think that's kind of cringe I did think that was kind of a big deal Uh, the porting of microsoft office to linux. Yeah, that announcement. Uh, there's also the announcement of, uh Direct x What was that? Direct x for For windows. Yeah, what's the name of the team the windows? What? WSL something like that inside the windows the linux inside the windows Yeah, we're gonna release a direct x for for that one too Yeah, a lot of linux stories this year the bigger ones. It does seem to be dominated by microsoft Some of what they were doing as weird as that seems yes Just remember before I never heard that embrace extended extinguish Not with sacha nadella. I trust him No Look, I'm gonna Sacha is the guy that came out and said that microsoft loves linux. We we can't blame him for anything He does everything right so far. You know what? I thought I thought I thought github handled the youtube deal situation pretty okay, so i'll give microsoft credit on that I think github was a little bit too aggressive there actually well legally they've got to uh react to the uh notice Yeah, yeah, but you don't have to do the immediate tickdown with the dmca You just give They could have just simply have given the youtube dl team a notice of like hey, there's this the there's this dmca take down You have this many days to respond otherwise. We're going to take your project. No, no They technically they they did the law correcting by removing it immediately then working with the I mean microsoft has a team of lawyers sitting there, you know, if the lawyers say yeah, take it down They're gonna take it down reality is reality is Um If you didn't take it down and you don't know how many days they would be they would be responsible for anything If if even if it was actually copyright infringement and the problem was uh, github would be responsible for everything not I thought section 230 protected the get up from that. No. No. Oh, okay. No, uh, because only if they didn't receive a dmca and Because they received dmca takedown notice if you didn't you didn't take it down and it was actually Actually copyright infringement It it would it would not matter github would be responsible as far as I I am aware Yeah, but I'm probably too the the person that filed the dmca was the riaa the recording artists industry Association of america, you know, that's a that's a big deal. Like you can't just Well, we're not gonna take it down. You take it down first and then you you think about what you're gonna do in rim response, right? You don't Because those guys have deep pockets the recording industry Like if they they wanted to get legal with microsoft they could you know yeah But on our hands, let's also remember that the guy who is Who is behind who is CEO of github is he he came to microsoft through open source? Yeah You're talking about net freedman Net freedman he he was actually one of the one of the developers of gnome too Yeah, originally. I think he was part of part of gnome. Yep No part of gnome. Then he actually had had a company with Mikael de casa Xamarin where they developed a tool set for writing iOS and android applications with c-sharp And that was bought by microsoft. That's how microsoft actually got both of them right and So and they were both fighting for as far as see they both still have some Some open source even before microsoft started openly open source There was inkling of that and people were There are many people in microsoft who actually are supporters of open source It is just that For the time microsoft was still heavily heavily Inundated in the the whole Philosophy that was said by bill gates that Saw that code is intellectual property because it came from the mind and Yeah, that that was his idea It was it was his how he worked Steve balmer had this somewhat of the same the steam balmer Took it to an extreme Okay, he he didn't look at him, but actually he said that he had in an interview Couple of years ago. I believe that that for the time. He still believes he was right that he has Linux I've seen interviews of him more. Yeah, he's backtracked a little bit. I think he regrets that linux's cancer talk that he was I believe actually read read that that he he was target. He wasn't actually Directly targeting linux. It was more targeting gpl Yeah, he's talking about the licensing. Yeah As a cancer. Yeah gpl is cancer.  It is possible. Yes But when like you're in the business and you're your business is software development Do you really want to release your product as the gpl? No, your goal is to make a profit. I can give you an example. I have a software Which is for printing industries as online software I'm gonna I'm gonna make it open source in the name of dt Annoying him the next year is gonna be it's gonna be an open source project for everyone to use And I didn't decide about the licensing itself yet But it's not gonna be any kind of gpl any kind I mean it's just a headache for me and and anyone who wants to create a plugin or module Out of the software I developed although I'm not sure even how it's gonna end up But it's not going to be any kind of gpl. It's just a myth. I mean the gpl It's just make no sense to me as a as a who You know have that software developed or the people who wants to you know develop on top of that software just a myth Well, yeah, but like uh, when when you look at it There are there are projects that do release paid for binaries. Uh, like, uh, what's our door is Audio software. Yeah Let's say open card open card is the gpl Yeah, so open card the gpl Then I mean as a developer when you develop a module for open card You spend hours to you know work on the module Then and then then you want to sell it and you know that although you are selling that as a as a customer who buy That module I can ask you to deliver the whole code to me because it's my right as a part of the gpl So I can actually copy your code and just have my own module Well steep balm or two was right about if he was talking about the gpl being cancerous The new project actually they don't describe the gpl as cancerous, but they do call it viral They say it has a viral effect and that it spreads everywhere So that's that's kind of the point of the license is to have that effect. Yeah Now whether that's a positive or a negative. I mean, I guess that depends on the use case Well, like when you My my whole argument is like like your your primary motivation if you're a company is to make a profit Because otherwise you're you're just not going to exist That is the true end goal of any corporation unless you're like one of those weird non-profits, which I don't understand why you Yeah, so It at that point of time. Why would you use the gpl? It's better just to use an all all rights reserve based license Or even just like creative commons something that still gives you access to to just closing your source code Should you ever need that option? I can I can answer that to you as a as a company on ever wants to actually do that if I would in the position to Release the software from my neck the wake of the software Either I cannot handle the support either I cannot you know, they're looked at further And I needed some support from the community and developer as free Okay, and I would still wants to you know kind of Own the license of the software. I would read it on the gpl Well, yeah gpl, but you you also have like all the other licenses like uh the uh apache license I think the bsd license which people The bsd is really nice. The apache is kind of complicated for me. The mit is really nice. I mean I would say mit is really just a bsd license. Yeah, they're the same license. Yeah Yeah, I would say I would go bsd with my software the end And we had a question here in the jitsie chat Magaga was asking why is the gpl considered cancerous? It's because When you license something under the gpl It forever has to be gpld. It's always got to be open forever has to be gpld any portion of it has to be forever gpld Anyway, the blue panting for that is going to be a gpl Like say that let's let's just take weyland for an example Let's just say that uh, you're draw you're you're creating a desktop environment And like for some reason you can't get your window rendering right because weyland's weird So you just go to know me. You just copy their code Well now your entire project has to be gpl It cannot change or even more open like mit And that's why companies like microsoft and apple They don't want any gpld software on their operating systems, for example, because they're afraid that you know that would affect Other parts of their operating system that they would then have to gpl that and they would lose control of that software basically Yeah, the big thing with gpl is that it's very anti open source initiative in in all truth Yeah, well, yeah, it's completely free software versus open source, right? There's two different ideas, right? It is two different ideas and honestly, I think I think it goes a little bit too far for even free software Just almost it's borderline, but it's almost there. Yeah. Well the good thing is there's really no real alternative to it When it comes to that Well, you do have the gpl version two versus gpl version three two I mean you have version two is a lot better than version right So you you do have some some flexibility in the licensing For example, the linux kernel is never going to move to gpl three. They're always going to stay on gpl two Well that and there's all kinds of lot logistics to uh update I mean the gpl have have its own set of mind and and and policy. I mean, it's not the I mean In my opinion, whoever used the gpl is not really open source guy It's just looking for freebies from the community. That's all they're looking for freebies and they're looking to show their freebies Yeah, I mean that's ultimately fine. If if I was to have a preference My the underlining components of my operating system my kernel my my gnu core utils The alternatives to that and all that stuff. I want that to be gpl I really do but stuff like my office suite I'm I'm not so certain that like gpl is like the license that I as a developer would want to use I can see your point there. I would certainly like like the fundamental parts of the operating system being gpled because Yeah, I can understand that because you want that to be open and so much more community oriented than Yeah, what some of the other licenses would allow Irony is for example microsoft uses mit license Which is even more open is it's basically Do whatever you want with it and do whatever you want. It's just that just remember that this belongs to me That's what the mit license says, right? Yeah Yeah, and that's what the bsd guys do too. That's why Yeah, you could take a bsd and close source it if you really wanted to sell it as proprietary The licensing allows for that, but you can't do that with the gpl That's why you you can't close source linux No, well With with gpl 2 you can Cook you and you can't close source parts of it If you use them, but then you have to have to Back the changes back to the original project Well, you also have to remember that not not every single portion that ships with the linux kernel on your traditional linux installation Is actually open source. There are parts of the kernel that come closed source. Oh, yeah, there's proprietary blobs in it Because Well, you do have the linux libre kernel which removes all those proprietary bits Well, yes, but why would you why would you subject yourself to that? I've tried and You have to have If your hardware works with it great if your hardware doesn't though if I enable that kernel I have to install this video card. Uh, this network card. Uh, if you have an nvidia card, don't even bother just Just stop now. This is an nvidia card, but you know, no, but this is a 620 or something like that. It's a really old nvidia card. It works with the linux libre kernel I just can't use a newer one In fact, the nvidia doesn't even make a driver for this card anymore. It's so old I've just come across a search engine called search x. I'll read you the blurb Search x is a free meta search engine available under the gnu general public license version 3 With the aim of protecting the privacy of users That would seem to me in the surface to be a good use case for gpl 3 Yeah, uh, yeah, search x has been around for a while. It's it's a good Privacy oriented search engine here is my problem with search engines because they are all fundamentally flawed And the only one that does it right is honestly speaking google Now hear me out on So say I want to find pictures of cats how a search engine works is a search engine works off of an index It's basically just like a control f search of the internet So it's going to find every single image of a cat and put it all in one place for you That's how a search engine works. Let's just say that now you have a very specific issue You just go to duck duck go put in like your error message See what see what shows up. There's a fundamental difference between what duck duck goes shows and what google shows Same page Yes, it's a lot of stuff google will actually show you stack overflow Go won't well, is it a problem with the uh the indexing or it's not necessarily an indexing It's an age of the search engine too and the way it's it's handling the indexing and and how it's uh It's seeing the request you are you are putting there So uh google is really on top of everything. I mean if if you're in an it department You already know that 90 percent of your solutions are going to be fixed with just a google search That's the god honest truth because uh Nobody is smart enough to really fix every single issue by themselves. There are very few people like that I don't even think tort linus himself could do that No, he couldn't she he was He doesn't know most I mean we're talking to we're talking about a guy that gave up using debbing because debbing is hard Well, richard stallman says he's never installed gnu slash linux because it's too hard He has other people install it for him Yeah, it's getting back to me a person like me I mean, uh when I was saying that I'm using the debian all of you was laughing at me So, I mean the always for me or for linus or or richard stallman The always is just the essential part of the computer So we we just you know want to install and get on with our life. So Well, I I know why richard stallman can install gnu slash linux It's because he's trying to use one of those 100 free distros That's a journey, but um if I wanted to take a moment to pivot to like, uh Something that I actually care about which is defaults matter so I know that there's a there's a very large arch linux in gen 2 community that watches your channel Derek so I know that this is not the very specific targeted targeted audience But oh, I think defaults matter in things too. Uh matter of fact one of the stories I talked about earlier this year was a emacs debating whether their defaults made sense But yeah, continue on with your thought. Well the idea So then this uh, this is somewhat on topic for like this year because we're celebrating the year of district tube, but uh So you install A linux distribution. Let's just take ubuntu for an example ubuntu uses the gnome desktop environment by default It's a very terrible theming process that they went for and they basically ruined the the glory that is gnome But but that's a debate for another time. We all know that at white Showed up at white is king at white is king at white is gtk3 That thing is horrible. Yes, but anyway, let's take a moment. Let let's uh Open a window in our gnome desktop environment Okay, windows open. We have I think you and big pod will probably be the only ones that can do that I can't yeah I don't even have nomenclature right now. Well, actually, I just go grab the laptop. I'm just comfortable. I haven't known but But anyway, let's open up a window on a Default bare bones gnome installation. You have a title bar With a closed window That's it. Yeah, there is no minimize. There is no maximize button Uh, you have it. You have a tweak Well, yeah, you can install tweaks but defaults matter here So Yeah, only the default Yeah, it's annoying if you want to maximize the window There's two ways you can do it. You can use the mouse to drag it to the top of the screen And it will become maximized or you can just hit super up. Yeah, there's a key I know I know what to say. It's so annoying. Yeah. Yeah. Now. That's fine Now I'm using a razor or not a keyboard. It's honestly terrible and I don't recommend anybody buy this keyboard because it's fake mechanical keyboard, but Super up is like a good 16 inches because I'm a savage U. U. S. Guy That's not very conducive conducive to like Hand gestures because I only have one super key on the left side of the keyboard and my arrow keys on the right side of my keyboard Now I have more Well, yeah, I imagine that you probably have more because you're someone kind of savage that owns a company Let me ask you this real quick just briefly Do you think kde plasmas defaults? Are as bad as genomes because I would argue kde plasma the defaults in it are just terrible They are both terrible. Okay. Yeah, I bought the same. They are both horrible Even windows is horrible And the big my biggest gripe about windows is like I try to use all these keyboard shortcuts that windows imposes on me because I literally cannot change them but I really want to do the arch thing now I understand That the arch Linux community does not care because they're savages and they have to install everything through command line Anyway, so they know that they can just go to the settings go to the key by the menu and change it But let's talk about closing a window now. Well now you're in Just just quickly our arch is never going to ship any kind of customized desktop environments That's completely against their philosophies. It is completely against archers philosophy. I don't blame for that That's the way arch is arch should never change from that ever This is entirely gnome's fault in this specific scenario now Let's take a moment and close the window using the keyboard on a gnome desktop environment The default key bind is alt f4 Now our entire scheming logic is wrong because we just used a super key to maximize it Why do I have to use the alt key to close it?   I feel josh josh is paying there on the key bindings. I hate Yeah, having to use super for some things alt for some things unless you just have a million key bindings I don't mind them having alt f4 or closing something because windows users But it should be a duplicate binding there should be another binding binded to super also to do the same thing There should be because defaults matter We're talking we're talking entirely through user experience and helping prevent people from just like Going in frustrations by realizing that they have seven different modifiers to do seven different things Yeah, why can't everything be bound to one modifier action? I think when we talk about window managers The one window manager that just is brilliant for what they do Is the awesome window manager when you can hold the the super key And it actually displays all of your key bindings with you hold the super key It brings up a uh just a a menu on your screen that says this is the key binding that does this This is the key binding that does that Well, let me take a moment to talk through like the logic that I use for like creating the key binds off from Off of my uh tiling window manager settings Everything was based off of the super key The logic here is that everything that the window manager does should be based off of one key That way because applications use the alt key the control key and all kinds of other stuff But when I want to open a terminal I hit super enter if I want to close it I hit super close The point of using the super key is that yes all of your applications use alt and control so you just can't use those every Every single base window manager application should be based off of just the super key Now I'll say you want to do something with the window. That's super shift You just add on to that That's that's the logic that I honestly think that more desktop environments should be using Yeah Is your when you're talking about the defaults matter It seems like most of your complaints are specifically about key bindings. Is that largely your problem starts with key bindings There's there's problems with other things as well Because like uh because I could talk about key bindings all day too because you guys have heard me trash Certain distributions and certain desktop environments for for their weird choice in key bindings So I'm with you on that So I make the statement that adwida is king quite often because not only do I love the known desktop environment I love gtk applications because I don't like qt applications. They just look weird and ugly but anyways The biggest problem with gtk 3 is that when I say adwida is king it is true every single theme is literally just adwida plus Adwida is gtk 3 if Whenever you make a gnome shell theme you're literally copying adwida and adding to it You are not making your own theme You can change your icon set But you cannot affect window borders. You can you cannot affect uh how the Sizes of the title bars and all that because adwida is king. That is literally baked into gnome shell gnome shell Is it a bad thing or is it a good thing? It's a bad thing. Why it's terrible. Is it a bad thing? So are you using stock gnome right now? Yeah, I'm always using gnome. Are you are using the stock adwida theme? Yeah, I'm everything on my desktop. You're not using a dark theme even though I could see a dark theme window behind you Here's the Okay, good.  I thank you for that but Why can't dome shell ship? With with a way to adjust themes by default is because adwida is king and they cannot change it I have I have something to say which is really bigger for me as a question Is continue your question here, but it's kind of against it and also with it That's getting back to the point I mentioned in the beginning I mean we have the Microsoft with whatever shitty platform they have for updates file management file system I'm not talking about Microsoft. I'm talking about linux now. Let's just just keep it. They keep it there Okay, just one single operating system with no with with something there and we have the linux community Which is old community by the way. I mean considering you know having a gnu and then linux and and then horde kernel and and everything else and and again All I can tell is that I wish that someday all of these know kde Tilling window manager everyone, you know come together and create one wonderful highly customizable desktop environment that meets every one requirement instead of Like mushrooms everywhere and just you know leave for a year or two So your vision is literally just plasma Everybody just use install plasma because plasma can literally do everything that known does it even has an activities overview built into if you enable it No, what I'm saying is that I wish that everyone just get you know team up together and create something good. I mean I love the fact that the freedom of the open source and you know We have the right to you know distribute whatever you want and really distributed and you know create your own operating system Or own version of the teams But I would say if We had these people working on the dbn or on centOS or whatever osu team and the arch linux They would have been more, you know completed, you know More magnificent than what they are today. That's my point. I mean Even even the companies like nvidia wouldn't really bully us with not providing driver for us, you know That's my point. I mean the Microsoft is so smaller than the whole than the whole linux community And they are the winner of the markets. The apple is just the freak. They are just small. They are just The one of the you must use this operating system ever seen my entire life the big difference Just the ridiculous operating system in my eyes. I mean the big thing about enforcing the defaults is that We're literally talking about microsoft controlling microsoft windows. They have 100 control over what ships with windows by default yeah Linux that is not possible with linux. Well, I I put out there earlier this year Uh, I made a video about it that I strongly think a boon to The flagship edition of a boon to should change their desktop environment. I think genome is hurting them I don't see. Oh, yeah, I don't see people being excited about running genome anymore. I mean people like it He's at the point of beating if you install a modern version of a bunto and you just hit the super key You can immediately tell that that is not a bunto. That is noam. Yeah And like it as a guy that's used stock gnome for years I'm literally talking about since the very beginning of gnome shell I've seen gnome change A little bit, but it's had that very unique look to it You know the look that looks like it's supposed to work for a touchscreen. It's supposed to be on a tablet stuff like that now If you and I cannot use desktop boon to without and without enabling the gnome session Because honestly the yaru theme that numb gnome look it looks all right Until you actually go to I think the thing is great The icon the dark the yaru dark icon set is just absolutely amazing And I'm going to use it for as long as for as long as I could stand looking at gray and orange and purple I think the theme would look great on a boon to mate as the flagship edition of a boon to No, no, no, no that team definitely won't look great Gotta get rid of the green now the green No matter what you do ubuntu mate will never look good Default because they love their greens so much and green is a terrible color. Nobody should ever appreciate. Well, they're in a three-way battle with mint and open susan Chelsea cucumber green is the best green you could possibly get and green is possibly the best color ever Don't don't fight me on that. I mean I drive a car that's green Yeah We know what we're doing green is awesome. If you install ubuntu, you're not stuck with gnome You can use task cell and select and select from kdd. Well, yeah, you can do that on any desktop distribution Yeah, we're talking about the default, but yeah The crux of my argument is the defaults matter ubuntu by default ships with ubuntu and it's a very I agree with you. I mean Kind of when I install the ubuntu first time I set myself. Why would I do that? I mean, it's just the debian Yeah with some different backgrounds. So why would I do that? No, there's not much difference. I mean really I mean when you think about it like the big thing that ubuntu has for compared to debian is ubuntu has slightly newer packages Because they've run off of the debian testing base If you're talking about debian stable, there's a difference, right? Yeah I mean when people talk about installing debian I always assume that they're talking about installing debian stable because well, I've used debian for like six years prior to this year I don't see it for a long time for five years. So Yeah, I've I've installed debian debian stable and that was literally my distribution. I use that for six years I went from eight to nine It is a fantastic distro when you finally just decide that you're just going to live with it Yeah, it's not good for people who are just uh, neither in the distro hopping or stuff like that So, um, yeah, I mean even for like, uh, the people that want to install like the tiling window managers and all that We have to realize that the tiling window managers don't really update that awesome Some of them are all right Some of them would be okay, but if you use something that has written in a language that updates like every day like xmonad Uh, you need to be on you need to be on something other than debian for that's only if you want to stay current Yeah, I guess you don't have to Yeah, I guess you don't have to but you know New features are gonna come out and are you gonna wait five years or whatever for the next three years? Usually for the next version I have I have a slightly newer package than any of you on any of any of your distro which running I mean, well at the same time debian syd Okay, so let me take a moment to talk about debian syd and versus arch Because debian syd is not pushing released packages They are pushing development packages because that's what debian syd is it is the development version of debian More more more more stable than any of their Well, yeah, it is stable because they're using development stable packages because debian is a long-term release distribution Never breaks never breaks. Yeah, it's that is the definite that is how debian is supposed to work Arch just wants to push the latest release possible. Yeah, we just gave me your your python version python 3 version Uh, well, I have windows installed right now. So I can't really pull up any second versions for you I did it. I guess I could probably pull off the server. I think I updated recently Did you say that 3.9.1 on arch right now? Yeah, same here 2 9 1 And debian syd and debian stable. It's 3.7.3. Yeah on the seed is 3 And the seed is 391 same as arch on ubuntu 2010 it's 3.8.6. Yeah, ubuntu is always behind. Yeah, but uh, that's what people want reality is that That's my most you know, no, no, no Okay, so I'm Okay, so I just saw an amazing question in chat The question here is is gen 2 more stable than arch I'm going to answer this and everybody can agree with this. It is as stable as you want it to be Yeah, that is literally how those how a rolling distribution works It is as stable as you want it to be because I can break arch I can break debian breaking arch. I can break deb. I can break anything I have broken every single linux distribution through just your standard package manager I've broken some gen 2 installs before and is it more stable? Is it less stable? I don't know the problem is Fixing gen 2 is always trickier than fixing arch just because the compile times and everything I I just hate working with gen 2 It just takes longer and yeah, it does I've installed linux from scratch. You want to talk about hating yourself? I actually I actually installed linux from scratch Got all the way to a working plasma desktop because I really wanted to hate myself that much. It took me two weeks No, I mean one of the reasons I run arch is because I I don't like building things from source for example Running things like debian stable a lot in years past You know, I would want newer things and I would have to go out and build those packages And then they have dependencies I'd have to build those and it leads you down this rabbit hole if man I'm putting in all of this work if I just switch distros all of my problems go away Yeah, that's why I just switched from this table to the seat. Yeah, because you don't need to compile anything Exactly in this table you have a 3.8 3.7 3.6 You need a 3.9. You have to go to the seat or compile yourself, which is going to be a painful thing so yeah, I mean but What when it comes on to like, uh Back to my argument of default matter The traditional person the traditional desktop user.  They want to install something and just have it work Yeah, window that is why windows is a default because windows works. It is familiar. Everybody uses windows as a result Now linux Will never be like windows We have to accept this So why do we have to use the same key binding schemes? Why do we have to have our distributions? I don't mind them using the same key bindings as long as It's a duplicate binding.  But let me talk about the greatest linux desktop environment of all time Is the greatest everybody wants it back Everybody loves it. It's called unity. No That thing that I like unity. It was it was trash, but it's a great desktop environment Let's take a moment and appreciate what canonical tried to do that was well off the bisk this other environment Now it also got I'm not gonna ask you to turn on your left. Here's install Uh unity right now. Just take a moment.  Well, yeah, you you can still install unity and there is actually A bunch of spin want to respawn. Oh, yes Take if you want if you want a moment of enjoyment in your web developer Go on to unity's website and just appreciate all the css code that the little kid just discovered But we're talking about websites there there's a lot of linux websites out there that You can tell that they don't work with web languages very often well, no, but uh When i'm talking about defaults, let's just everybody right now. Just look up a picture of the unity desktop environment. You have that Yeah, by default You have an image That has a panel on the left side with all your applications listed Yeah, you have menu options across the top And you have a more traditional window layout when you open a window I think if I remember correctly the unity buttons were not on the right side. They were on the left side Yeah, because everything because and you quickly get this feeling That when you use the unity desktop environment everything in the top left matters That was what made it great. You hardly ever had to move the mouse Now you can still do that with that with the tweak the non-tweak Yeah, you can there a unity tweak tool you can change that Some of I think even some of the non-tweak features work because unity was originally I mean, I mean we can we can reproduce the unity with the non-tweak right now I mean the exact the same thing. I mean the the combination of menus and stuff Yeah, you can do that, but defaults matter here. We're literally talking about defaults We're not talking about using a tweak tool Yeah, so you open an application one of the fantastic things that one of the This is the best thing that unity did at its time. It doesn't work so well nowadays But say you take any an application and you full screen it in unity Well, you lose the title bar in unity Yeah, yeah because it's wasted space Space and it integrates into the top panel of unity like it does in macOS Yeah I mean, that's why tiling window managers don't put that title bar there. Why do you need to see the title of the window? You can't tell what you're working in Yeah I mean, I'm sitting here on windows installation right now The very first thing I did when I installed windows and got it active it was I took Is I took the uh panel that that Microsoft windows ships and I put it on the top of the screen because it's just like I don't see why anybody puts it Puts a panel on the bottom of their screen Unity also did the great uh the the trick that awesome window manager does unity also when you held the super key It would display all the keyboard shortcuts Yes, it did do that It did do that and it and it included uh keyboard shortcuts to resize windows as well And uh even resizing the wind window with the mouse was more convenient on unity than it that was on windows as well But that's when you got many of many people are against this idea and they think the the most Creepy and shitty desktop environment ever was unity I mean well, yeah unity was probably the best thing going at the time because your only other options were GNOME 3 at the time which was horrible for those early options And kd4 kd4 was also really really bad When you came out there were like four desktop environments. Yeah It was xfce for the people that hated themselves There was gnome. There was gnome shell kd4 and unity. That was it I mean everybody else just used window managers. What was what was canonical gonna do?  You had to create your own thing there So canonical in I think it was 11.10 that unity first shipped in somewhere around there But it was 1104 because oh, yeah, I alpha tested that thing and Unity was hot garbage. I really I reinstalled like six times during the development period But when you go from If you look at the progression of how much it improved with every single release Unity went from hot garbage to actually something that even I would use today Yeah, well, they had to do a lot of work because that first version the 1104 version um They still were maintaining two different unities. You guys remember they had a unity 2d or something that didn't use compias and that was cute based instead of gtk based so they actually maintained a gtk unity and a cute unity for I think two versions because I think they still had it in 1110 too. I think they eventually dropped it though Yeah, they did drop it. They dropped the unity light. I think they called it And they dropped that after like two years or something like that The very early unity in 1104. I don't think was based on genome three at that time They had to do a lot of refactoring in those first two or three releases of unity It was it was a ton of work for those guys, which was why it was extremely buggy I mean I appreciate any software developer out there that does something other than just create a standard application That you open on your desktop like if you are a person that develops a window manager I want to talk to you. I want to hug you. I want to buy you dinner if you are a person that Create that works in the creation of a full desktop environment suite I want to have dinner with you as well I love you guys because you guys are savages. You guys are taking on some of the hardest work That is even capable. It is harder than driver's support in some in some cases Because you are working with a very subjective field of user design experience.  You need to appreciate gnome. You need to love gnome shell I could use gnome without any add-ons But that's because I would probably just key bind everything You know my standard like tiling window manager things where I'd open things with the keyboard and close with the keyboard and I mean I I could get along with gnome without any extensions at all if I wanted to and probably The biggest fair to the unity people that People was comparing it with genome and with kde when they have like one year two years developing and genome has been 10 12 20 year of development. So you're gonna compare a project that mature with with unity They were trying to do it and and at the end when the the project was finally dropped They were they have a pretty decent behavior But uh, it let let me roll back to 2010 when gnome shell first came out They were really what gnome was actually in a rougher place than most people realize Yeah, they didn't know they didn't know where they were going with it. The design changed many times. Yeah They they wanted they they had a vision And they wanted to accomplish that vision But the development support was not there and the monetary support to pay the developers was not there That's why red hat came into gnome. That's why red hat and gnome are best buddies these days We're talked about like the reason canonical went with unity is they asked the gnome team. Hey, we need certain features In gnome three for us to use it and they said no Yeah, okay So let's talk about the logic of gnome shell gnome shell they give it very access they give you very convenient access to uh Virtual desktop environments. They're dynamically created. They are never static Because the intention with gnome shell is that everything is full screen That is it everything is full screen except for like maybe a file manager in a terminal window You open an application it's going to be full screen and then you want to open another application Well, you just go to a different virtual desktop and you open it there Because those are persistent windows. That's why that's why the alt tab behavior in gnome shell is Fairly weird to start with it's not like you're you're just having through windows. You're tapping through application sources But uh I don't know. I had that as a tiling window manager user. It is hard for me to like the way Virtual work workspaces work and things like gnome. It's different. Yeah, it's it's a yeah They don't call them workspaces. Right. Well, they don't call them Virtual desktops. They call them workspaces because they want you to eliminate the idea of what are you workspaces used for They want you to fit into like their philosophy of the ultimate workflow Nome gnome literally works best on a single monitor. That is what is that's the problem That's the problem. I have with it is on my three monitor system.  Well, what's the reason? Now the the reason why gnome behaves so weirdly with multiple monitors just to just so to speak I have I have No, I'm just yeah, I know we've established this earlier. I know that you have no now gnome you when you install a second monitor For gnome is designed and intended for programmers We have to realize this for it. That's that's what I am. It's it's yes and no But when you when you attach a second monitor is you that second monitor is used for reference only That's why it never changes when you switch your desktop environment The top bar there. Yeah, you don't have the top bar. You don't have anything that screen Can you start add on to have it on all my first? If you look at the gnome logic and what the discussions that they were having in in the various chat channels mailing lists and all that That second screen was a reference screen as well as the third screen. But you can have it in the plugin Yeah, you can you can change it with the plugin but That second screen was to never change if I'm not mistaken Even the even the ubuntu 2020 24 also have this functionality that you can you can have it on all monitors or even yeah, I think yeah Does a gnome do the annoying thing that other like plasma and things do like I have three monitors here I open a window on my first monitor and then I go to the second workspace And really all three monitors go to a second workspace It's like all three monitors were on a first workspace then all three By default gnome does not support any virtual Workspaces on a on a secondary monitor because a secondary monitor is one static workspace and it will never change So that's the problem. I have to have my monitors be able to be independent Well, when you think of when you think about it from like the programmers perspective What does that second monitor use for is used for reference code? It is used for like your stack overflow page that you're basically copy pasting off because let's be real That's what you're doing. Yeah, but that is your reference That's why a lot of programmers use the vertical vertically mounted Uh monitors so they can see more code They don't want that to change Not uh, not the majority No, I mean, I mean I just also do I'm so happy with like I'm not gonna change It's almost like the purpose of having a home office. You walk into the office. That is 100 percent of your work You walk into the office. You are built into that working mood. It's similar. It's a similar mindset to that Oh I'll agree with you. I mean, I mean whatever you I mean you mentioned a couple of the time that I'm just uh, you know People champion by using the gnome itself, but the point is that I'm a software developer. So Whatever gnome gnome default offers to me except that you know annoying Minimize and maximize thing. It's really works for me. I mean, I don't have to change anything else and I'm so happy with it the the The ultra white monitor I had is just for referencing my some someone's like overflow pages and my code And you know that pack refreshing and I have my first monitor for development and everything else So I don't see any point of as I said, it's just based on the use case for me As I said, this deviant thing and the gnome thing works for dt It's just arch and you know telling windows manager and for you. I'm sure you have something more complex It's just The only thing I can say I'm just so happy that we have everyone everyone have its own version of operating system talking about defaults is Different for for this crowd here Because all of us I said that all of us could turn a gnome into something that we could work with Right All of us could turn plasma into something we could work. I mean we could make anything work at the end of the day I mean ideally I'm the kind of person that when I install an application I use it I want to work out of the box like I I install a music player I want to to open up I About the most I want to do is point it towards where I keep my music because I don't keep it in the default location Well, what I would suggest is Looking to window managers that way you can create your own desktop environment Then version control that thing and you never have to worry about it again problem solve That's what that's what I've done with with awesome window manager But let's just say that like I'm installing something for my grandma Grandma wants a computer that works. She wants to open up firefox and that's it Or like oh in an internet browser of some kind. That's it. She grandma doesn't care What her dot config file says? It's not your grandma only I mean 95% of the casual user in the office and in the business just use the Microsoft office or I mean any kind of office But I'm not talking about the working person. I'm talking about the traditional person at home using a computer Everyone the browser and the Microsoft office. I mean any kind of office is enough for everyone Yeah, but you don't you don't even need Microsoft office You can just get by the library office in this in like 99% of home Yeah, library or any kind of office. I mean just yeah, so ideally let's let's just let's Let's start I'm going to start talk about like my perfect desktop environment setup It does not have a panel It has a launcher. That's it This is this is little I'm going to talk about like this logic as as if I'm setting up an open box when you say a launcher You're talking about like a like a dock or yeah, okay That that's literally it. Let's let's just take open box here. It is just a desktop background You have your applications going across the bottom the top wherever the heck you want them That all it consists of is your web browser an email client if you're that kind of savage In your office suite and a music player because we got to play our music. That is it. There is nothing else on there That is perfect for 99% of people that are using a computer at home Yeah, if you say that that's maybe google chrome It's not like that. That's literally how a chrome book works That that is part of the reason why uh As long as they can open up a their google chrome and get to the face page most people are good Yeah That's what i'm talking about when Defaults matter is just like let's take a moment and just realize this Now ubuntu is trying to target the largest audience possible That's why they have all these useless things such as the dock and all that other stuff and launchers and weird stuff and terminals but uh If we take it if we take the computer and just simplify it down to its barest core of like what a person actually uses a computer for That's really all we need. So it's going to be a kernel and a browser if you ask me A kernel browser and like a window manager. Yeah, I mean A dock and and yeah, basically just go to alpine linux download it and install a gooey on it So then then why not going with the android or Any, you know, where's enough to android? So Android is not efficient You want you want me to talk about android right now? No, no, I mean Enough android or iOS kind of you know chromo s right? I mean Chromo s is the best example of this because if if you're willing to do it you can compile chromo s yourself It is technically free and open source. You can download chromium os. You can go to the website You can download all you can download all the source code. You can compile There's a big news there. There was a company who was offering the chromo s for for 886 computer devices, which is acquired by google So it seems that google gonna Release the chromo s for anyone soon. Not only from it would make sense Wait, it makes sense for google to do that eventually because like If I build a desktop computer, I just don't want to use Microsoft windows. Am I really going to install that? Let me see the company name to make sure cloud ready Yeah, and and like that would be a great and fantastic thing for like For somebody to go out and use and you guys know that the new chromo s is also came with the deviant kernel So you can have like kind of a development on it based on the deviant kernel Yeah They were still using the The modified android kernel that they were using no it come with a deviant kernel because they wanted to have More people like developers to working on they won't be able to install dip packages on Yeah I think they are also even switched from the open to with with the deviant testing Internally on the it's it's are you talking about their google's own uh customized linux blue boon to they use The goon to his con and it's just gily looks i think yeah, whatever there. Yeah It's a deviant testing now deviant testing we believe it with some other some other Package manager and she's using up their maybe it emerged Yeah On top of the testing and they test i mean they have their own repo of the software that they get the testing version of the software They work on it and they they release it internally, but it's kind of a gily nooks something like that i think So the the chrome is going to have the deviant kernel too If you if you i mean it's gonna it's gonna be released as a as a general operating system Which is gonna kind of break the neck of the microsoft as well as apple hopefully i mean We're not gonna break the neck of microsoft anytime soon We're still like 10 years out before microsoft even falls below 70 percent architecture Uh in years Yeah, well, i don't know i'm predicting chroma. We don't I i honestly feel like i'm being optimistic when i say 10 years on that it might even be longer than that We should remember that corporate makes probably 75 percent of all All computer usage I don't know if chroma was released x86 images and you know, i know eums could put that thing on there for free Why wouldn't they yeah? It already has x86 images Yeah, it's gotta be laptops From laptops realities that Uh Most companies will use Will use what's called windows and unless that drastically changes. I don't see falling below probably 70 60 percent 2021 is going to be the year the linux desktop though It's really what we need what we need to do is just take all the students that are in the schools Get rid of all the chrome books the windows computers just get them using linux. That's really the only way The only way that is the only way we're going to be able to grow linux quickly and we have to literally plan for the long Yeah, put pine books and everybody's hands that school pine books on linux That option is every every company needs to start Buying del xps's Del xps developer editions. That's the that's the other way Yeah, but the big problem with the del xps is that it's got the is that That it's got the the developer edition labeled in its name. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be kind of off-putting Yeah, the thing is just for me for me is always that the the one thing that Everyone has to do is just to not buy the inter and and and the uh cpu and gpu. That's all I can say I mean these are the two cancer in the whole hardware, you know, king with the linux. I mean the ad works fantastic on linux As far as the xps having developer in the name, I mean, it's a $1,300 laptop Yes, it's so expensive. You can't work it back to a normal person because they would never buy that. It's like, why is it so expensive? Yeah, I I never gone for that for the for the developer edition. It's so expensive It doesn't make sense for me to spend like Thousand and a half on and just a laptop 30 inch laptop, you know, so being a developer Although I always use three monitor to work. I don't see how I can work on the 13. I would never spend more than Four or five hundred dollars on a laptop ever unless unless I actually worked on a laptop That's not if I want to sit down and do work. I'm gonna sit down at a proper keyboard and monitor Yeah, if you if a laptop's your desktop replacement. Yeah, then spend a lot of money on it. Yeah, of course Okay So This is not a sponsor of dt because I don't think you've ever taken sponsor But this is a system 76 laptop. It's a new referral. Yeah. Yeah, I bought this Earlier this year like a month after they came out with it for 12 I don't have any respect for them because they're using the nvdian intel, but it's good Well, this this does not have an nvidia chip in it. Yeah, so But the big thing with this laptop is This laptop is not economical below a thousand dollars. It is just plain not Yeah, if I was to take all these screws off you'd have you would see the proprietary motherboard that this laptop uses Yeah, now system 76 does use rebadged clever computers. I can buy a computer that looks just like this from clever Do they use specific efi OS? Do they use a special efi? Yeah They actually take the whole Control board out of here and replace it. They have a complete. They have a completely different board logic board in here now If you're a small company that size of system 76 You are not going to be able to produce this on a scale mass enough that you could sell for cheap Is economically impossible in today's society. Well, they're they're going for the wrong demographic in my opinion If they just if they just targeted the linux crowd the linux enthusiast if they lever booted that thing and put it out I'd buy one Yeah, I mean Call a lever version of this laptop. Well, this laptop uses core boot Yeah, it's core. It's good. It's not it's not leverry boot. Yeah, it is I agree with you. It's really fun. But how about the how about the your wireless? How about your cpu? You know that that that there's in there's an operating system inside your cpu the Intel cpu bar It's a part of every cpu. This does have the this does have the intel management engine enabled It it does use it. Yeah, I mean that is proprietary that is that that's for me That's that that's for any for any hardware that comes with kind of the platform That's a dead end for me. But there's already companies How are you using a computer? Because uh, Hamid why are you using how are you using computer because if you have an AMD cpu you have some sort of platform inside there if you're using Uh a gpu It's completely optional by AMD So I have it in my main board so I can enable or disable you can disable it It's always on it's always on That's my problem with the Intel. It's always on.  I mean, I don't want you to spy on me what I'm doing I I don't see why I have to do that for the wi-fi card I mean, I don't see why I have to have a blob of the kernel which has come with the Uh proprietary driver on the wireless wireless card. I don't see that why I mean Who who's gonna stop you from from spying on my on my daily daily, you know life No, I actually agree open source. I actually agree with Hamid here very valid concern But let me just take a moment to respond to umka in the youtube chat here Where he came out and said that I see no point in buying a linux laptop because I have no special case for expensive hardware There are No, that's not to you. It's to the youtube jet now this laptop I only use once a month for probably a couple of hours. That's it Why did I buy it because I did not buy it. I would love to pay that As long as they follow the linux community, which is I mean you paying the system 76 for what for for I mean any kind of the laptop i'm not paying system 76 because i'm paying for system 76 I'm paying for system 76 because they are they are a vendor that makes not crap hardware Puts it out there and ships linux on it. That is why I spent so much money on this Maybe you can help me here. I would I would like to see system 76 Create a linux. I mean the real linux laptop with core boots I would like to see amd gpu's instead of nvidia because you nvidia you have to use the proprietary, you know I don't I don't mind nvidia being an option, you know But again, you're marketing to a linux enthusiast kind of crowd even though that's not really what system 76 is Really the only people that are going to buy that laptop are people like us and I Purism the purism I think yeah, I think one of the things that really totally free and liber kernel I would I would I already have two laptop from there and anytime I can I have an extra money I would buy from them to support them because they are the linux people. I mean That's my idea. I mean my personal idea what the company who is you know, what's great about that Is that lever boot idea Would appeal to people even outside of linux like even people that were running windows or mac even when you talk about Hey, you know the the lever boot and the safety aspects security aspects of it People might actually buy that that otherwise would never try linux just because you lever booted it. Yeah They have some physicals, you know privacy stuff like, you know, the switches Yeah They have some some some software teams with with the with the lever kernel and everything goes I I love to see them grow I I mean, I mean the problem the problem with purism Is they don't do a good job of marketing themselves. It's the Yeah, if it's system 76 of their platform if they put it out system 76 would make it a hit The problem I think that they have a really nice cell phone, which is also the privacy concern cell phone which come with the linux I think Okay, okay, so Let me correct a couple things here. First of all in chat somebody said the system 76 does not have an amd gpu laptop Or an intel gpu laptop. They are working on it. They've actually came out on the tourist feed and said it now Uh, let's talk about purism here The reason why purism is not more popular that they then they already are they are actually doing some pretty solid marketing On just their youtube channel And they get conversations from like all these other things They could be more aggressive about that. Yes, but the problem of purism is that they're shipping old hardware Yeah, and that's the problem is it's people didn't like the price point for what they were getting for Yes, I mean, there are not so many people really concerned about their privacy and they need them They need more hardware. Yeah, and they are already selling to a very niche market They're they're trying to sell to the people that go out by by an old computer because they know that they can We're on all their free and open source software on it. That's who purism's market really is and purism is actually really selling well In that market for people willing to pay the price here Just just just a quick quote here So as you see there is not there is not so much problem with taking over the markets from the Microsoft regardless of the fact that That the majority of the problem came from the companies like the intel and n nvidia if they just you know, uh, you know Be deleted from the market or you know replaced by something else We don't have such a problem to you know taking over the whole operating system market from the Microsoft That's the main problem here.  I mean, why wouldn't we have a Why why why not everyone pushing the intel to release the diver? You know source code and just to uh go in a different direction here because uh, we're gonna run out of time here in a little bit But uh 2020 one of the big stories I I didn't mention was the fact that za reason Went out of business the then they managed manufactured Linux computers And they blamed it on covid which may be The actual reason I don't know. I wonder if they were struggling before then though well The big thing was our reason and They were very unique to start with because uh, they I believe that they actually manufactured everything in house Um, I don't know if they manufactured everything but Yeah, they they manufactured a majority of things in house Now the the buy-in prospect of that is very expensive And that's not something that's typically done these days because it is seen as expensive Well, there's development costs with with stuff like that Yeah, there is development costs with that and at the same time they were shipping stock distributions, which that that was a debate for from earlier, but the The main reason why is the reason went out was purely because of marketing so so What what are you saying is that uh, everyone who is doing uh, linux hardware should have also a A pop or else.  I mean, well, I don't see why there's a one two There's a pop or else. There is decent debt. I mean, I like choice. I like choice because how it's not hard to flash any image There's a freedom of choice Let's just take a moment here and just discuss linux users in general you install linux You're already a more smarter person than most of the people that use a computer because you've installed linux You know how to install an operating system. Yeah, but I don't mind it coming to me with a boon to or fedora Whatever it is. I won't already on there. I'm not now to people that don't know better Yeah, just put a boon to on it But also, hey, if you know what you're doing, hey, we'll put arch or sucer or whatever it is you want on there That's fine with me. But what I'm saying is that uh, where when there is a one two Which is come with like almost everything you need in terms of even drivers Why there's a pop or else? I mean, I know there's like decent debt changes, you know in the ui in the key bonding You know the way they do it for the mainly because of the nvidia drivers, right? They're doing it because people are I think I think I want to I tried it last time. It's come really good In terms of driver both amdn and nvidia Put to install some video driver by default. Yeah, I mean I saw that yeah, but popo listed it first Did they know a boon to spit? Well, I don't know By default maybe they had a special iso for yeah, bdi Yeah, they have a special iso for because of installing the proprietary nvidia drivers a giant pain in the butt if you've never done it before Yeah, because a boon to is always added as an option. They just don't take it on by default for obvious reasons You have to choose it yourself I'm going to do it before the popo is the popo is just doing that by default Ubuntu doesn't done that by default. That's the team you have to go to the software setting to the repository and and change the way you want to But a boon to you can now for believe from 18 10 you basically go to Or 1910 you during installation you have another tick box you click it and it will install it It's it's just a believe it replaces the tick box for The multimedia stuff is added in some section about proprietary drivers I love everything about the freedom of choice. I love everything about you know, this is tough now But popping one each other like a one two to debian debian to one two and then Ubuntu to kubuntu and then do one two to the popo is which is basically doing the same with just a slight, you know different, you know Just make no sense to me.  Okay, so With that debate of uh, I don't I have a sentos server right now and I am going to be moving to debian Let's just say that you you have bought into the red hat ecosystem. I'm I'm talking about the ecosystem as a whole I'm talking about fedora sentos and red hat I've been there. I'm I'm I see there now There are some things that sentos did differently from debian There there is thousands of the teams that that's yeah, there are thousands of things There are some things that sentos did better than debian That even upgrade from the sentos seven to sentos eight. We don't have any pickup downtime. So yeah, so It it comes down to a moment where it's just like uh, you have you have to realize that some people just do not like change Yeah, I do Some people are the savages out there that want two different commands to upgrade their system Mm-hmm. They're in sentos. You can literally just go sudo dnf up Oh, I sometimes get a support questions of things, you know Hey, I saw your video on this arch based distribution sudo apt update doesn't do anything Like yeah, that is that is a problem. You got people like that out there So there are some people that actually like typing out the full name of aptitude Oh There are trust me. I've met them They they like typing in aptitude or apt dash get because they're used to This is purely because of familiarity, right It feels weird just typing apt install Personally, I I enjoy typing in cat the file name and piping it to grep. Oh, you know how many times a day I get messages about me typing clear in the terminal and people can't understand Why you type clear when you can just do control l? and I've never really explained this but it also depends on what shell I'm in and whether I'm using the e max bindings Or the vim bindings in the shell because control l will not work if I'm using the vim bindings And bash, which is what I'm in most of the time. So That's why I type the full word clear, but I don't know why people care Like what does it matter whether I type it with cl er or just control them Up to that part after that part that it's about the familiarity is fine with me My major problem would be would be why why why is still there is a room to and popo s I mean, I don't get it at all Something that grinds my gears why deviant ships with four with four different package managers Look Legacy reasons right legacy reasons we're talking about the deviant. Okay. We're talking about the centOS They are two different things. Okay. Yeah Basically, it wasn't it wasn't it is not the operating system itself. It was basically a forge From a red hat, which is a proprietary software. We don't just you know subscription stuff So it wasn't the independent os like the deviant itself. Yeah deviant was You know from the beginning Built by the community for the community. It's so much different than centOS.  It was so clever You know and the moment they took the centOS.  It's obvious Yeah, I've been saying that too and everybody complaining about Who's my killer deviant?  Yeah, I I don't see it. I mean Well, there's too many folks of deviant already.  However can and that's what I'm I'm not talking about the name the deviant can be like even two in ten years. Who knows? It can be handy this throw. It can be easy this throw. I don't talking about the name I'm talking about the code and the source is is you know, you know Being you know Being a deviant today. So it can be die as a deviant. It can be any other os I don't see really deviant is dying forever. I don't see that moment coming anywhere Just quick. I don't want to address upcoming. It's It's over. Right. I want to address somebody in the chat was asking me Other than me typing clear. He says also, please don't recommend any new user to do cat piped into grip Now there is a reason I sometimes cat something and then pipe into grip is because I cat it first To take a look at it And if it's something lengthy then I go back and grip and it's just easier to up arrow and then tack on Pipe grip whatever it is you're searching for instead of re typing the whole command, especially if you cat it a lengthy File pack. I I'm not going to go back and re type the whole thing. I'm just going to pipe it into grip He also says the people that cat into grip probably also love to use python for everything I like python peter. Are you trashing python? I mean you want to talk about something that's just familiar or just like in general I'm the guy that actually uses carrots in my terminal I like carrots and now let's just say that I update my server my server my server Uh, I have another server that runs devian. It runs devian stable. It's always ran devian stable When I when I go to update that server I type in apt update and I care update into upgrade That is my force of habit Use useful upgrade at once Well, yeah, you can do that too, but I hate myself and I and I want things to break Up great. Then sometimes now great. Then sometimes full upgrade. I know what you're saying. I mean that that's the diversity I love but having a you Yum dnf and you know all these three together on one doesn't even exist anymore Yep, yum doesn't exist. It's purely just an alias for those people that that uh, still want to use Yum because they hate themselves. Yeah, if it's not there, then it shouldn't be there When you say type the young it should it should return the bad bad, you know It's just a bash alias. So now it's just I know that Yeah, and the majority of people the majority of sysadmins that are typing yum On a modern modern fedora or centOS system are actually kind of aware of that because there are these big long complex young yum scripts that do not work with dnf It's still there are there are differences when you when you use the yum script with the dnf script Yes, different kind of there are some differences and they ran into that copy paste issue Although it's always the same same things in the core. What is still the young command is different than the dnf? Yeah Peter in the chat was saying all right dt. You gave one legitimate reason to use cat pipe grip Yeah, that's the only legitimate reason. I would never use it in a script But when you're just doing something in the terminal and you you already had something cat it out Yeah, just tack it on at the end I think it's actually uh improves readability just a little bit because if you just use The file name comes at the end. So I feel like Uh, I'm reading Japanese where I have to wait till the end to understand what what it's talking about If I have cat in the file, I know okay. We're starting here. This is the input. It's very uh for readability. It's it's excellent. So I Like you said like people freaking out over small things well people sometimes, you know, I I want to Run some command and I happened to know the command with awk because I use awk a little bit And then man, why didn't you use sed for that because the sed implementation of it is faster than the awk? What does it matter? I'm not writing it in a script. I'm just typing it in a terminal one time If I was scripting something then I'd worry about speed I mean if we're talking about speed we have to remember that very that most people that are actually smart Are using me these uh solid state this with their high speed memory On their modern days x86 systems, right? Does the performance in the command line really matter that much that you should be using sed instead of cat? Well, I think a lot of the these people are thinking you're you're eventually going to script it And it's going to be a slow script is what they're thinking We're not working with tape drives anymore people But if I need something to be efficient, I'm not using bash in general, right? So right you're going to use You're going to use python if you're going to write a proper script, right peter In the jet if I want to be efficient are you see For scripting. Yeah, if you're going to write a proper program I'm saying if we need to prioritize efficiency, then I would you see but if I'm yeah, most of my scripting just python And if we want to prioritize efficiency, we don't even you see we use we use stock assembly Yeah, sure. I really prioritize efficiency Just code just code everything in binary. There you go. We are talking about the computer efficiency talking about all efficiency Which is the python You also need to think about the person writing it with their efficiency How many of us how many of us know the know the assembly here? No, since the back in time. I know a little bit, but I've never actually written I've never released software where I need it There's not much of the people who knows what is the cobalt or Fortran or assembly or my Yeah, I know, I mean, uh, unless you start a company like me I I started the company about 10 years old unless that you are not really know about the turbo assembly or macro assembly Or or or cobalt or Fortran? Yeah, they are not even heard by people these days If you know some Fortran you can make major books right now because there's so few people that Yeah, I I did and I I still do I mean I'm on the on the one of the people who get paid. Yep. So, uh, I've even I've even tried teaching myself a little bit of B as well, but I can't find like a modern day use case for B I can still find I have tones off that. Yeah, but uh, I I've been I The main reason why I taught myself assembly was because eventually I want to I want to rewrite the complete operating system for this car That I have because there is no open-source car operating system No And I'm slowly working myself that way because I want to hate myself in the future That's why I've been sold links from scratch scratching. I've taught myself assembly and I know a little bit C as well A bit of uh assembly is just good if if you want to be a programmer and kind of want to know Well that too because what's going on under the hood? I'm just surprised. None of you guys on your programming resumes had emacs lisp, uh listed as one of the things you're wanting study because that's I mean I used to know that proficient with git is is probably on my resume. That was the first thing This is how I learned git the open source.com cheat sheet I have used that cheat sheet too I have one from bash as well that I used in years past. I printed out a lot of those This is uh git. This is markdown. Uh, this is linux common commands. This is ssh I have the one for vim and I even have gimp Gimp, uh I might have to print that one out. You know, that's cool. Yeah, they have one for gimp. It's actually pretty cool Well guys, we just got about four or five minutes here So why don't we Give everybody a minute to give us some closing thoughts here So take a second to say whatever Yeah, joshua give us some some closing words here Do you do we need a motivational speech again because I've given those past four times? Yeah, if you want to Oh, oh, okay. Go with what you're feeling So I read this on it. This was a reddit post the other day I this is just a framing for it. I went to go comment on it But by the time I commented it the user deleted it and made me sad but work before thought I like when you think about that work before thought you you want to do things get started on it You want to work out go go to the gym and start working on it. Don't think about it. Just go. No I tell people that asked me about you're getting started making youtube videos all the time just do it As people put in all this thought ahead of time what it is just just make something It's gonna be bad. That doesn't matter. Just get started once you get started Let's see approach I did and now my channel sucks All right, thanks josh Jean-Michel give us some closing words here. You're muted I'll pull side of you Uh See did I mute him or You can unmute him. Let's see if I can unmute him Or he can unmute himself. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, okay Uh, I have nothing special to say, but I just want because it's the right moment Wish everyone the happy new year. Absolutely. And thank you dt for all the Nice and helpful videos that you make Appreciate that. So I hope Everyone is going well into the new year and uh, I assume we see someone in January All right, thank you. Jean-Michel And uh I'm good Yeah, uh, first of all, I want to uh, thank you dt For bringing so much information to the community for your videos I appreciate everyone happy new year And wish me the best of luck. I have a new baby coming in four days in the first stuff 2021 so Hopefully we deliver the new baby safe and sound. Thank you. All right man. Congratulations. All right All right big bud um Thank you for our for for coming here It was and thanks dt for sending me that email so I could come but I would like to point out about the debian debian dying how in my opinion debian Can die really easily If there is no packaging There are no people packaging Most of those most of those uh forks Will will be left in the dark. That's true. Yeah, they all use the same repository. So look, I I am Ubuntu matter developer part of the development team I see how much we rely on external packaging If that external packaging didn't exist whether it be debian whether it be canonical If that disappears only thing that we would be able to To do is we would be able to have matter desktop That's the only thing we have power over when packaging. That's the only thing that would stay for us Absolutely, I would say uh the the main reason so many people use especially debian and arch Is because there's so many people packaging packages for debian and arch if they were those people didn't exist And believe me packaging everything and keeping it updated. That's absolutely a Horrible and hard job. Yeah, just having helping with uh packaging Matter desktop for debian and ubuntu. Yep I I'm Really really really? That's a lot of work. I am since me and me and uh marketing repress Help out with debian packaging a little bit for matter desktop mostly him, but I'll try to a little bit Well, why don't we all go find a package maintainer today and thank them? Because of course, I I think I can do that too in the arch mailing list because you know I thank everybody that I ever meet in person I go to a linux conference.  I thank them and as they let me I will hug them You're talking to a person that gives mozilla fire fox So that was you the one that they were talking about going around hugging everybody weirdly Yeah, I am that person. I will go and do that. I I just saw the cops carrying somebody out I didn't know who it was. I've not been carried out by cops yet. So that must not have been me All right, thank you big pod and let's get uh Magago, I don't know if he has this mic working He may or may not have the Is my cooked up or he may be He doesn't have a working mic. Yeah, that's fine. Thanks for being here though and uh kami Hi, I'm a kami channel or whatever. That's my youtube channel, but i'm steven and uh You might see me around on dts uh discord channel and here in the chat and stuff and Nothing special to say just Merry Christmas to everybody and uh And happy new year All right, happy new year This is the only time of a month that I go out and I I rank my computer stuff So if you ever want to run run into me uh being windowshell and loving the known desktop environment as it is Just watch watch the district youtube youtube channel And let's see tug I don't know if tug has a mic and camera or anything Uh, if you have a working mic and you'd like to say something Feel free to give us a closing thought here tug He may or may not Be hooked up if not I'll give my final word here I'll go ahead and give my final word and if he jumps in He can give his as well I just want to thank you guys for hanging out with me And we've had some guys also some patrons earlier that joined us on camera that have already left I want to thank those guys for this too. This these are always fun Uh, we had a good time with this one. Uh, just reflecting back on 2020. I know 2020 has been You know, probably a weird year for everybody But I know I didn't made them any there Yeah, but you know what we made it through it just fine I know people like to say it was just the worst year of their life or whatever, but you know what No matter how bad it is. I thought everything It's going up, right 2021 cannot be as bad as 2020 So look on the bright side, you know, find the silver lining and every cloud and I for one am looking forward to 2021 I hope you guys have a fantastic 2021. I wish each and every one of you guys happy new year All the patrons that couldn't join us in on the chat I also want to wish them a happy new year and all of you guys hanging out in the youtube chat too Thank you for your questions and comments you guys make these exciting as well And other than that We will send this out Before I go. I'm gonna show some names on the screen here. Here's a list of the patrons Some are here some that are not I want to thank all of those guys And other than that Let's wave bye to the youtube jet This is my favorite part of every single