Anyone, could you please lead us and pray, please? I can pray, Pastor. Yes, yes, Rose, please. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Father in heaven, we thank you for today. We thank you for the many ways you provide, you protect, and you preserve us. Thank you for your unending and unconditional love for us. We thank you that for the next few hours of being in this school, and we devote and we commit them to you. Father, help us focus our hearts and minds now on what we are about to learn. Inspire us more and move us by your Holy Spirit as we listen and understand to what we are about to hear. Inspire our teacher, Pastor Nancy, and speak through her. Speak through her your words of wisdom, Lord. Guide us all by the light that comes from your word. Father, allow us to discover you more and your ways.  Amen, amen. Thank you. Thank you, Rose. So we'll continue on the subject that we have at hand. In the last class, we were talking about the house of God being the bride of Christ. And then we also looked at the fact that we have to be a house of prayer and a house of worship. And we mainly studied about the tabernacle of David and how he presented a very different worship as compared to his contemporaries where he engaged in extravagant worship, when he engaged in continuous worship and excellent worship. So we saw how that pleased God because the worship that David offered God was very intentional. The worship that he offered God was, you know, the best that he could offer. And anyone who followed that same pattern of worship later on, we listed out the names of some kings. And we said that all of them saw victory. They saw some form of blessing, prosperity upon the land, because of the same nature of worship which they followed. And he most, the prophet, spoke God's heart and he prophesied that God was getting ready to rebuild the tabernacle of David and reestablish it in the days to come. But we know that whenever God speaks about Zion or Israel, you know, we look forward for the literal manifestation, for the literal fulfillment of what the word has spoken, but usually the way God works is that he brings about spiritual completion first and then the little completion happens. So when the prophet Amos spoke about rebuilding of the tabernacle of David, we know that at some point, literally, you know, we'll have the Lord Jesus established his rule and reign on the earth and we will have that form of continual worship taking place, you know, sometime in the future. But right now what God will make happen is the fulfillment of the tabernacle in the spiritual sense. And we know that the spiritual Zion or the spiritual Israel is the body of believers. So God is going to rebuild or reestablish the tabernacle of David in the church first and then, you know, that will be literally reestablished in the earth. So that is something that we are looking forward to. And, you know, we could also say that, you know, God is doing it right now and we see several movements that are 24 bar seven, worship, intercession that are taking place and we are only going to see an increase of that in the days to come. Now, we've understood that God wants to rebuild that tabernacle and James, the then leader of the first century church, you know, he rose up and he quoted the same text, the prophecy of Amos about rebuilding the tabernacle in the context of bringing the Gentiles into the kingdom of God because what was happening at that point is the apostles and the believers knew that Christ had died for the Jewish people but it was hard for them to accept when God started moving upon the Gentiles. You know, you had Cornelius you had Peter who went and ministered to Cornelius and later on, you know, the apostles brought an issue that was going on in the church of Antioch which had to do with the Gentiles to the apostles. So when the apostles engaged in the matters of Gentiles most of the people did not like it but at that point as a leader, James had to stand up and remind the people that this is not the apostles idea, this is not the leadership of the first century church's idea but this was God's promise back in the times when Amos prophesied. So James quotes Amos and he says that when the tabernacle of David is rebuilt this is what God had promised. He had said that he will bring the Gentiles who are called by his name that God will bring them into the fold. So what can we expect when the tabernacle of David is rebuilt? So one of the things that we can expect is people coming to Christ, people being saved, us having a large harvest. Now the term Gentiles in the prophecy of Amos you can just look at that as unbelievers. So we're not going into technically who's a Gentile. Okay, they will get saved. It's not necessarily that but the term Gentile there is referring to unbelievers. So when we rebuild the tabernacle of David which is 24 bar seven praise, worship, intercession we can expect a harvest. That's the point. So today as we see this movement praise, worship and intercession being re-established here on the earth we can expect God to move upon the regions where we live and what we are really living for is to worship God and the great commission. So we can see God doing that and much more. Now we will not go into all the results of pursuing the presence of God because all those results are applicable when we pursue the presence of God we will have the manifestation of His glory in our midst. Now that is something that we really look forward to. And so many things that come with that manifesting God's glory that has to do with the revelation that comes into the lives of the people that is about the blessings of God that we will experience that is about the supernatural power of God which we'll experience. So pursuing the presence of God brings all of that in addition to that, very specifically through Amos's prophecy we know that God is going to draw people to Himself. So the great commission, the harvest is something that we can look forward to. And we also briefly looked at the worship that is going on in the throne room. So in scripture we generally see this pattern.  So 24 by 7 worship. Yes, David was the first person who initiated that and yet when we look at the throne room of God in heaven we see a continuous worship taking place. You know, you have the angels, you have the elders, you, the scriptures talk about the multitudes standing around the throne of God and giving Him the glory and the honor and the praise and everything that is due to Him because He's worthy. So the continuous worship that is already happening in heaven. It's nothing new because that's the God we serve who deserves our worship at all times and He deserves our worship. He deserves our praises continually. So this rebuilding of the tabernacle is like a shadow. It's a shadow or it's in line with what is already happening in heaven. So we are kind of just tuning into the worship of heaven. So that's where we stopped in the last class and we just started looking at some of the movements that have already come about on the earth. One particular person who started this form of prayer without seizing. In fact, based on that scripture, 1st Thessalonians 517 where Paul writes, pray without seizing. So Alexander Achaemat is one of the monks in 480. He wanted to live out that scripture. So he gathered some other followers with him and they started praying continuously. They started engaging in intercession and he established this night and day form of prayer to the extent where these people would not sleep. So they came to be known as they came to be known as Alexander Achaematis and the sleepless ones. So there's an attempt. You see an attempt there of engaging in 24 bar seven intercession. So that's an example from history. Another very well-known example. I know that we have touched on this when we studied prayer and intercession. You probably would have also touched on this when you did other subjects but it's good to always look at good things repetitively. So in history we have the Moravian revival that we talk about. So the Moravian revival, what was the fuel for the Moravian revival? It was a 24 bar seven intercession that the people were engaged in. So the story goes something like there were refugees sent out of a particular place and they found shelter with a man called Count Zinzendorf in Hernhit, Moravia. And in that place, just these people were given shelter but Count Zinzendorf was a godly man and he wanted for these people to also experience God. So he kind of led them into routines of prayer and having gatherings of gatherings where people could worship God, people could break bread, people could listen to God's word. So services began within that community of Hernhit and as time went by, there was one particular service during, it was a communion service and God's presence was very special. Something about the manifest presence of God and picking up from there, what Zinzendorf did is he realized that God wanted something greater to be done from that moment on. So he just asked for people who would commit their time for bread and 24 men, 24 women gave that time and they kind of signed up for this 24 bar seven chain prayer. So men were doing a 24 bar seven chain prayer and women were doing the same thing. And so what started on that day, in fact, the date is August the 13th, August the 13th and Zinzendorf called it a day of the outpourings of the Holy Spirit upon the congregation. It was its Pentecost. So the Pentecost of the community. So the prayer which began at that point, we read that it went on for a hundred years. So basically the chain didn't stop. People kept signing up and people kept praying. So this started in 1727, went through the 1800s. So what is so special about engaging in this kind of 24 bar seven prayer, 24 bar seven intercession? A lot of results or the impact of the Moravian revival is what we generally look at. So because people were praying in this manner, we see that a missionary movement was born out of the Moravian revival. In those days, missionaries would go out, but you would have a, like the ratio was really not that impressive. So for a population of about 5,000 people, that would be one missionary would go out. But after the Moravian revival took place and the prayer went on, God had changed something in the hearts, the lives, the spiritual realm, right? And impacting the natural realm. So so many things had changed that people started moving out on their own. They were impressed by God and they started stepping out as missionaries. So quite a number of missionaries went out and it is said that in regions where the ratio was 5,000 to one, it became 60 to one. So you can imagine, so many missionaries stepped out and to have a missionary zeal, that's not something that we can conjure up or we can sort of stir up in people. That's something only God can give that kind of a missionary zeal to step out, to sacrifice, to be out there in the mission field, to share the gospel, to bring people into the kingdom. But it happened as a result of the Moravian revival. So we see, why do we talk about the Moravian revival so much? Because this is one of the main things, the way missionaries were sent out from the, and in fact, from the same community, from the same Moravian community. So that's amazing. This is what engaging in prayer and worship can do. This is what engaging in intercession can do. And it's noted that people like William Carey, people like John Wesley, they were all influenced by the Moravian revival in one way or the other. So that's the impact there for us. So this is to encourage our hearts. When we are engaging in prayer, I'm sure that all our church communities have something like this going on. We might feel at that point that, hey, nothing immediate is happening. We're engaging in worship. Maybe momentarily we take back the peace, the joy of God's presence and all of that. But then we might wonder as to what the outcome of this kind of commitment to worship or commitment to intercession can be. But what we have seen is that whenever people have engaged in this 24 bar seven, the tabernacle of David pattern of going after God, there is a definite and a very powerful impact. And that can happen in different ways. So the Moravian community is a great example. In our notes here, we also have the example of the prayer mountain. This was established by Dr. Cho, Dr. David Yonge Cho in 1973 as a part of their ministry in Seoul, Korea. So basically they established a prayer mountain, a place where people could go, they could see God, they could just go on retreats for days, weeks, months and just be praying, okay. And when this was established, as soon as it was established, we see that a lot of people were attracted to the place and it is recorded that their visitors were up to a million a year. So they started out up to a million people would come in a year to pray on that prayer mountain. So you know, you see how God is rekindling that passion for 24 bar seven prayer and intercession. So this is again a good example and Dr. Cho talks about how because of investing in prayer, his church grew in Korea and not just that but the church had a great impact on the city and the nation. And we know, it's the second largest church right now in the world. So there is a connection between prayer, intercession, worship and the coming in, the in-gathering of souls into the kingdom of God, okay. The next example here in our notes is the International House of Prayer, a Kansas City, many of you probably know and follow Mike Bickel. So there was a prayer session that started out a prayer meeting that started out on the 19th of September in 1999 and the story is similar to the Moravian prayer movement and Zinzendorf. What started on that particular day hasn't stopped yet. So what the team did was they started engaging prayer leaders and worship leaders continuously such that the worship and prayer, they have prayer rooms, they have worship rooms and it still goes on and some of you probably know that it's also a live stream. So if you just wanna join the prayer room, you can join from anywhere in the world. So that's another recognized movement that we have seen but obviously there are many other unrecorded movements many other regional prayer movements that exist. We probably just don't know about it, okay. But we know God's word, God has spoken and said that he's going to re-establish this form of 24 by seven engaging in prayer and worship and God's house is supposed to be a house of prayer and supposed to be a house of worship. So we must engage in it and when we see the Lord working in this way, we can encourage that and see and increase. So we must become a people who cry out to God day and night and crying out to God day and night is not a new concept. We have Old Testament scriptures that talk about how we are watchmen on the walls and we keep calling out to God or we see God day and night, okay. And our cries go out to the Lord day and night in Luke chapter 18 verses one and seven. We see Jesus referring to that persistent prayer, okay. And over there he says if God will he not avenge his own elect to cry out day and night to him. So the day and night concept of engaging in prayer or seeking God, it's always existed and even Jesus advocated for it and we can engage in that form of seeking God. So how do we go about establishing this? The first thing is always to speak the truth of God's word. Even when we talked about the church being the pillar of truth, we said that to get people moving in a certain direction, the truth about that matter needs to be proclaimed, the truth from God's word. So how will people know that God delights in the tabernacle of David, we teach about it. We preach about it, we share, we let people know that this is what God's word says. So the moment we teach people, they receive the understanding that okay, this is God's word, this is what God is going to do in our times, let's engage in it. So the understanding comes and that is how the church or the community of believers begins to engage in this form of worship. So that is something then we can also encourage prophetic worship, we can encourage prophetic worship because we've seen in the tabernacle of David, there was a lot of space for the prophetic, God's spirit would minister through the songs, through the music. So we as churches, as worship teams can make place for that. So the format that we follow, we can, allow God to minister, we can encourage our teams that yeah, we can have a set of songs that are listed out for the worship time, but be open, be sensitive to the moving of the spirit if you sense that God is leading you in a certain way to say something or play a particular tune, just go with it, right? So we encourage prophetic worship and when it comes to intercession, we can engage in a more targeted kind of intercession by that, what we mean is the mapping format. So the mapping format, we will study our environment, we will study our city and whichever place we are praying for and then maybe list out as the Holy Spirit leads us, we can list out, okay, these are the social issues, these are the needs of the people, these are the spiritual strongholds. So we list all those things out and then we start to pray in a targeted fashion. So that is also something that we can do in a practical sense. Then we can have these prolonged periods of worship, prolonged periods of intercession established in our communities, we can incorporate it into our community prayer times. So generally in most of the churches we have our Sunday services that we run and a midweek, maybe a midweek service that takes place. So whatever programs are there, you kind of build it into that if possible because then we are giving an opportunity for everyone to engage. So like here at APC, we have a pre-service prayer time. So about half an hour, we go for people who come in for service, right? We encourage everyone to come in the morning, it's another thing that you don't have a great attendance for the prayer times as you have for the service, but still there is a faithful crowd that does show up. So we engage in prayer. See, it's an opportunity where we can invite everyone, everyone in the church and say, hey, prayer time is open, everybody come. So in that way in the common services or the common programs, if we start introducing prayer intercession, people will take to it. They will also learn, okay, this is how, okay, fine. We engage in prayer, this is the way, we will pray for these points, this is the way we'll be led by the spirit, this is the way we will declare, decree. So they engage in intercession. In addition to this, we can have special times of prayer and intercession, things like, here we have five days of prayer where we set aside twice a year, we just set aside time to come together, extended hours of prayer and intercession that we engage in. So that is, I'm just giving you some examples, I'm sure. You have your own patterns and formats. And then also maybe doing the all night long prayer worship, but one thing of course to keep in mind, it's coming in the next section that challenges is to recognize that people may not be used to extended hours of praise and worship of prayer. So we have to build it gradually and then slowly people are able to stretch themselves and focus in prayer and keep continuing on with extended hours of prayer and worship. So yeah, in this way, depending on our local church, depending on our congregation, we can introduce the people to progressively extending patterns and then they'll be more comfortable to engage in this form of prayer and worship. Then we can encourage people in their smaller groups also to have these forms of prayer and intercession. Now maybe smaller groups, they just get together just for a time of worship, just for a time of prayer and intercession. So that passion kind of is birthed in the hearts of the people. They realize the value of this, they realize the importance of doing this. And so people start engaging in it. Then we could also work towards a 24 bar seven house of prayer, the kind that we have discussed, Dr. Cho established prayer mountain, the house of prayer in Kansas City. These are all dedicated places of prayer where they have designated this only for 24 bar seven prayer. So God might call us our ministries to do something like this. So we might have to choose a place, we might have to choose people, a point people as God leads us to have worship leaders, intercessors, prepare them spiritually and also make provision. Because if we are calling people to engage in something like this, then how about if some will be part-time, so maybe they'll have a job, they'll finish their job, have an income and they'll come. In their free time and engage, they will lead worship or they will lead prayer.  Maybe the church will have to pay them, right? So maybe they will become full-time intercessors and worship leaders. Because if you are going in this direction, the ministry has to make provision. Because 24 bar seven, how are these people going to live their lives? If they come at all their time to prayer and worship, and David actually did that. He paid people, he just told them to engage in prayer and intercession worship, and he made it possible for people to live comfortably while they were dedicated to a cause of this sort. And I've also heard in the Kansas City House of Prayer, they have different options. Some are full-time, some are part-time, some are only for the night prayer sessions, right? So they conduct the night prayer sessions and to the extent that there are some people who are living their life on a different schedule. So they are awake during the night and they kind of, it's like your night shifts. But there are some people who are accustomed, their lifestyle to that. So they can engage in this form of prayer and worship for months and even years. Yeah, so this is what we have in this chapter here. And one more challenge that we might encounter is the worship leaders and the intercessors. When we are looking at extended times, they might become tired. So we have to be very, very mindful of that. So even David, we saw how he had so many singers, had so many musicians and there were rosters. So he had different teams that would minister at different points. So that is a practical thing that we can use because if we have only one or two worship leaders and we tell them, okay, we're gonna have three days of praise, worship, intercession, your lead. So you imagine two worship leaders, how can they sustain, right? For 24 hours into three, it's very difficult. So if we have teams, then what we can do is we can give them slots and say, okay, we have four teams, so each team can take up two hours. And then the next team comes on to lead in worship, to lead in intercession. So that way, because we are mortal beings, we still live in a physical body. We have to make sure that people are well rested and it doesn't affect their health, right? So these are some of the practical issues that we must be mindful about. So I will pause at this point. We can discuss a couple of things and then move on to the next chapter. Any thoughts, any inputs, any testimonies? Thank you, Pastor. I just want to contribute something based on my church experience. So I remember in my, the former church I was, we used to have long hours of prayers, like 48 hours, 72 hours, like maybe two was the end of the year. And so what the prayer coordinator would do would actually like have coffee, tea, just to keep people warm and then keep people at last. So I just said that just basically you talked about ways of encouraging people. I think that's another way, just to encourage them that oh, there's something you can always have when you're tired. You provide water, they provided water. People would pray, they'd get tired. So all those literally things go a long way in encouraging even the weakest in the church, to be part of something like that. So I just wanted to add that basically. You talked about encouraging your congregation in long hours of prayer. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, say very practical. Yeah, so thank you for sharing how it's done. Yes, Achal, do you have something to add? Yes, thank you so much, Pastor. Even us here, what we do is to prepare some warm water, especially when we are having corporate prayers when we are together, face to face. And before the rock downs and COVID-19 would be having those corporate prayers when we're in face to face gathering. So we'd be praying and when you need something to drink, there is some hot water. Sometimes we would put add sugar so that people would not lose strength for prayer. So we would be there and the church would provide some money, but again, as we would meet, we would do some offering again. And that money from the offering would also be used for such provisions of drinks and some bites. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, thank you, Charles. I'm sure that helps. So some refreshments, something to strengthen. Yeah, Prabhakar, face to face would have 24 bar seven praise and worship for few days in a month. Yeah, there's a ministry called Face to Face. So they have, is it three days Prabhakar? Three days, seven days, would you know? I think a week against, Pastor. A week, yeah. Yeah, so yes, I know, I mean, I've personally attended some of these sessions, not through the night though, but I have friends who have attended and they've all been very, very blessed by these worship sessions. And also they have a hall which is very comfortable. It's kind of nicely carpeted. So people sit on the floor, they kind of lean on the wall. They make themselves very comfortable and the worship goes on, the prayer intercession goes on for hours together. And they also have a lot of worship leaders, no Prabhakar? They keep taking turns to lead. Yes, Pastor, many of my friends would go there and it was an amazing place to be worshiped. Yes, yes, true, true. Yeah, thank you, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so we have this ministry here in Bangalore. Anyone else, do you have a house of prayer in your city? Any ministry that is running something that's 24 bar seven and it continues? Okay, so I suppose we do have extended periods of prayer and all, but not continuous, isn't it? So we look forward for such ministries to be established and most definitely that strength, that motivation, the planning for something like this, it has to come from God. Otherwise it's very hard to sustain. No wonder it's called a movement, a movement like this, but let's pray, let's trust God for more and more of this to happen in Amnitz because it's an incredible place in Amnitz because it's an incredible blessing. We are hosting God's presence by doing this and we are tapping into all the promises of God that he's already given us. So anything else, if you would like to add, it'll be good to kind of share now else we will move on to the next topic. Okay, doesn't look like we have any additional thoughts so that's all right. We can move to the next topic here. So the next chapter in our notes is the local church as the temple of God. So far we have considered the local church for various functions, responsibilities, the nature that God expects of the local church to sort of be to emerge with various expressions. So we've looked at it and now as we go forward, we will talk about the local church being the temple of God. So this word temple for the Christians, we use the term church. So it may not be that familiar but what is the understanding when we use this word temple? Now we will understand it based on the temple in the Old Testament. Now the temple is a place where God's presence was hosted, okay? So when we look at the church, that is the main, that is the basic point that we will attach upon in this section where we are saying that temple is God's house, temple is a place where God dwells, temple is a place where God's presence manifests itself. So apart from the church being a family, apart from the church being God's body, having to do certain things, engage in the gifts that God has given us and still be united, apart from the church being an army, the church being a bride, the church being all those other things, it has to be the place where God chooses to live. I mean, imagine, we can try to be all those other things but if God is not willing to live in the temple, it's not a temple because a temple is a place where God dwells and the church has to be the place where God dwells or the body of believers and also the gatherings of believers where two or three gathered in my name, I will be there, right? That's what God has promised us. So God's presence is what makes us who we are as the church. If we don't have God's presence and we have all the other activities going on, we are missing out on the core of what makes us the people of God. So let's talk a little more about the temple. So while writing through the Corinthians, in 1 Corinthians 3, verses 16 and 17, he says, do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the spirit of God dwells in you? So the concept of the temple is one where God dwells. In this case, Paul is saying that the spirit of God dwells in you, that's why you're the temple. The spirit of God does not dwell in you, it doesn't make us a temple. And he goes on to talk about keeping ourselves holy because we are the temple.  And many a time this passage is quoted with an individual in mind. We say, oh, this body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and we must keep it holy, we must not engage in things that defile the body and especially sexual immorality, things like that. So we talk about it at the individual level. But if you look at it, we can also apply this and Paul was talking in terms of the community of believers as well. So don't you know that you are the temple of God or the body of believers, the brethren, the disciples, use whichever term that you would like to. But the people of God are meant to be the temple of God.   And that was the encouragement that Paul was bringing to the people. Now this concept of God coming and dwelling in a place, we see this from the time God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, a tabernacle is a tent. So we know that Moses and the people, they were a moving community. So they did not have a temple which was established, but as they moved around, they could set up a place of worship wherever they went. So the tabernacle of Moses and God gave a pattern. We see in the book of Hebrews, Hebrews 8 tells us that the heavenly pattern, in heaven, heaven is already the temple because God dwells there, God's presence is there, God is worshiped in heaven. And Hebrews 8 tells us that God gave that heavenly pattern to Moses. And he was given like a blueprint and he was told, okay, have the outer court, have the inner court, have the holy place, the holy of holies. So all this was in the pattern of the worship of heaven and God told him to construct it and build it, wherever the children of Israel were at that point. So Moses did that and in the tabernacle, no one special furniture which was built and was given prominence was the Ark of the Covenant. So the Ark of the Covenant, that's the place that God chose to come down upon, the Ark of the Covenant. So why is the Ark of the Covenant so important for the tabernacle? Because without the Ark of the Covenant, God cannot come down. Okay, and God's presence filled the tabernacle because of the Ark of the Covenant. So that place of meeting, that place of allowing God to come and manifest himself, visit us, that's what makes the tabernacle the tabernacle. So without God's presence, it'll just be some ritualistic worship, traditional worship that goes on in a certain place that God instituted and that's about it. But the holy of holies, the Ark of the Covenant and the presence of God that came upon the Ark of the Covenant made all the difference in the tabernacle. And we know that again, the tabernacle was, it is a shadow of the real worship that goes on heaven and heaven is God's temple because God's presence dwells there. So just along these thoughts, we will continue, we'll study more about the church being the temple of God. Right now, we'll take a break because we have run out of time. So let's take a 10 minute break, we'll come back and discuss more about the church being the temple of God. So see you in 10 minutes class. Thank you.


So I actually have a mic on me as well. Just to have everybody do that. Thanks everybody for joining us for the second half of today. We're going to have two panels coming up. And then we're going to take a little bit of a break. And then for those who are here in the room, we'll have a few projects that there'll be an opportunity to get hands on with some of the projects. Some of them have come up earlier in the day as well. And so there'll be an opportunity to interact with those, talk with the makers of those. A little bit more, especially as we're continuing to rack up challenges and potential and past failures for things. So first, we're going to talk a little bit about, and we're going to come at this from a couple different angles. We're going to be talking about the creator-technologist relationship, what it means to come into these partnerships, what it means to come into these forms of collaborations. There's a lot of people who may find themselves more on one side or the other, or definitely reliant upon somebody who might have more in-depth skills in one area or another. As we highlighted earlier in today, when we're even dealing with the theatrical process, it takes a lot of people to make that happen. And even at its core within the work that we're doing within Toaster Lab, we sort of essentially need to have three people. Somebody, myself, primarily focused on production elements. Justine, who primarily focuses on narrative elements. And Andrew on the development end. And the three of us working and knowing enough about what each other does and having an open line of communication is the teamwork that makes the dream work, or catalogs, failures in a really interesting way. And then we can bring in other people from that and sort of identifying the gaps of who needs to come into a project from that. But even us having a conversation about a project doesn't work without having multiple people in that conversation, especially when you're trying to create new, creative, collaborative work. And if you don't want to just either dictate something like a vendor-client relationship, when we come to the end of that, we're going to switch immediately over to the research creation process and talking about how that comes together and how these ideas of asking questions within the type of work that we're creating, whether or not the work itself is and the process is towards answering a research question or that there are various outputs of it that get disseminated in different ways than necessarily specifically artistic distribution, which is one of the things that is really interesting in working within this digital strategy fund realm is something that for those who are, especially Canadian research institution affiliated might be more familiar with within the SHERC model, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, which has supported other projects before, but support work that's done in this research creation model where creative work is a research output and how these things bridge together and how they sort of become intrinsic as we're figuring out what these things are. Then we'll take our break here. Say goodbye to our friends from afar on HowlRoundTV and move into the hands-on demonstrations of things that are happening in the room here, a lot of which we'll also put out there as things that, for those that can be accessed by web, we'll have those links available as all this gets archived. Okay, so we're gonna jump right into this because I've yanked enough in putting this together.  So, Julianne, where do you go? You're hiding right there. Come on up. I'm gonna do this for many reasons. My name is Julianne Saroy and I'm the art, not artistic, I'm creative producer of Small Stage and I just wanted to point out maybe my background which might give you a little bit of insight more into how I work and just understand my relationship to the creator technologist. So, I started out as a baby dancer. In fact, I went to York University with Patrick doing our undergrad in theater and dance. Patrick was in music and tinkled the ivories back then. Then I moved into stage management. I spent a lot of time in my career in stage management and touring over the years and this provided me with a long relationship with technology, how to make shows happen in different environments, different spaces and then eventually led me to sort of my practice got bigger than stage management and now I'm a creative producer of dance experiences, I call that. So, I just wanted to define for you more what that means for me as in my Small Stage, with my Small Stage hat on and because a lot of people are asking me what mixed reality is in, what is mixed reality and dance and how do I use it in my work, I'd say. So, I'm combining a lot of things all the time. I like to combine things and make them fit together. I use a lot of assets. When I make an asset, create a snowflake. I like to make it have multiple usages for it. So, this is a really big thing for me when it comes to reducing barriers and accessibility and using technology as that entrance point for people. So, I'm experimenting a lot with live and digital platforms to create dance and giving dance artists skills in digital platforms for them to create more work and in fact, we were also generously funded by the Canada Council Digital Strategies as well for that work in specifically digital literacy for dancers. So, this comes out of that methodology, in fact. And so, I'm really clear about what we're using it for when I create and so, this is really important to note that this is how I use technology and what I'm using it for. Create dance experiences that are maybe not new and innovative but are certainly using all the tools that we have to better link dance and audiences. I don't use the words users. I use audience when I talk. Bust down theater walls, bringing dances out of traditional theater spaces where personally I feel that there's lots of great dance companies doing those traditional models including Ballet BC who invite people into their space and that's not what I'm doing. I'm going out into the world and doing more site-specific work. So, that's a really important access issue for me. Reaching new audiences and building overall capacity is really important to me and my work. So, I just wanted to show you a little video quickly of a partnership that has actually developed with the Robson Street Business Association. Each year we've been doing something called Winter's Dance and here's a little video. I think if I hit this, it'll play. I don't know if you have sound. Can I turn it up? It's a great art and culture with a urban environment and making it accessible for everybody is at the heart of Winter's Dance. I don't know if anybody can hear it. Yeah? Okay. So, this is actually an activation on Robson Street in 2008, something to do with Robson Street. We got three different dance styles with this piece, a hip-hop dancer, a top dancer, and a contemporary ballerina. And then I built up each of these in terms of assets. Audience users. Live experiences were happening. Projection mapping on the side of a building. This is our fancy reception before opening. This is the top dancer who was on a gramophone. These are all the assets that we built, the snowflakes, that connects with the first augmented reality app that I built. The set pieces were also made of the same snowflake assets. These are lots of people talking about. A lot of people were actually experiencing dance live but also filming it on their phones for later viewing, I guess, which is really interesting to me. At the same time, they were also invited to download an app that they could, that we gave cards out for. And this I found extended the experience, the live experience in a different way. There you go, there's somebody that was using the app. So the app is still a really interesting tool that has extended this experience that happened almost a year and a bit ago. And I'm now understanding that children are just simply downloading the app in a different experience and I never imagined that would happen with this work. This past year, at Winter's Dance, the same installation, essentially, but a different year, we incorporated another layer, which was VR. VR was played as a projection inside our tent, our performance stage. And then I also published each song and posted them online as the cardboard experience for people to have as well. Again, it was a way to extend people's experience once they left the performance. You see various photos of the dancers performing inside the tent. That was basically a projection of our VR, what we made. In fact, so my husband actually made the VR experience for me and it triggered off of the music. There were different things that triggered off of actually Patrick's music that he provided for this project. And that's kind of, I think that's really the, I'm just gonna gloss over this and show you the experience that this was the first iteration of our app, that where we used motion capture. And Patrick's students, we were resident at the Digital Media Center and Patrick's students helped prototype the first app in dance and that's what it looked like. And then once I flipped it to a show experience that was informing and extending the show, the Winter's Dance, this is how it started to look. In AR. And our VR, and that's it, there you go, that's it. And there you go, that's it. And there you go, there you go. Thank you. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. All right. We're gonna jump next. We're gonna go a little bit more towards the technology and come back and our other way around. So Hector, would you mind coming to the stage to share your presentation? Perfect, I'll get it set up for you. Hello everyone, my name is Hector Alsati. I have a little bit of a weird approach to where it comes to art and technology because I come from a totally different background. I have a background in engineering and most of my career I spent in the gaming industry as a technical director or like mechanics programmer and then I started shifting more towards design and experimental tech and art integrations and the Center for Digital Media was definitely a big part of that. So today I'm gonna show you a few different projects that I have worked on in the past. Both as a creator, used as a technical supervisor or like the dude that actually makes it happen and with collaborations with different types of artists. So the first one is really dear to me because it was a self-initiated project with a bunch of friends. How most experiences often start. We were just really bored at school over a weekend. We had a break and we thought that it would be cool to just go out on a hike and then we saw a flock of birds playing around and then we became mesmerized with the movements that we saw and then we thought, hey, wouldn't it be neat if we could create an experience that kinda could capture this and then bring it to a space and that's how we developed our first installation that we call BOIDS.  We have a site-specific installation that works with projection and motion capture where you can direct the group of birds to fly to wherever you point those towards but we also have an augmented reality app that allows you to create your own bird and then release it to the flock of birds. So, and this was showed at the festival, Carnival of Mixed Realities that we organized at the Central Union Foundation. So here you can see how people started like pointing at the wall and then they could see the birds fly on that cluster but it was a social experience as well because more than one person could jump in front of the screen and then the flock would start following them so you were kind of trying to steal each other's birds which was interesting social interaction that really brought people into it. That's one of those? Then I did a collaboration with Patrick on this project that started as an exploration of cybernetics or what the concept of cybernetics could mean and then we found a lot of work and a intensive body of working using these type of concepts in art. So what we found is it's that this type of definitions of a mathematical machine that would grab random input and then like interactions from the people and this has been done since the 80s and then it's been back into them. So an early work is this giant machine and this is actually the best image that you can find of this thing because back then cameras weren't that good where a piano performer would play a piece that would be interpreted by a machine and then it would be speed back into it through motion and sound. So then what we developed was the system called Colossus which is a virtual reality experience where we using brainwave data, we lead experiences that we add to the way that you're feeling. So it's kind of like a co-creation experiment with generative design and generative art where the music that Patrick designed was integrated in such a way that could be controlled and react to your brainwave trying to make you relax but at the same time if you were to relax try to bring you into focus. It was a large experiment into delving into different algorithms to process data or biofeedback for creative intent. So that was really interesting for me in terms of the technology that had to be developed in that regard and that's something that is true for art and technology and it's that the technology is not there already. So we have to develop it and go out there. At the end of this we ended up developing a plugin that anyone can download and integrate to use in Unity to create experiences that react to brainwave activity. So that was pretty neat. And the way that it works is that basically you as a person would be wearing the Muse 2 which is a headband that you just like wear here and tracks your brainwave data. And then that send the EEG and your heartbeat data that we then send to a laptop that was running experience that then rendered everything through a VR headset and a pair of headphones and that influenced you as well. So it was kind of like our reinterpretation of those early works in cybernetics and how we could merge the human with the machine and make everything one experience inside the same specific cycle. And then lastly, this one is part of the startup that I'm working on right now. I work with a company called Yumebo. We do a platform for geolocated as well dynamic streaming of experiences through AR. So this one is a collaboration that we're doing with a Japanese artist called Katsuya Terada. He is on the right of this picture on the boss is Wilson, our CEO and on the left is Takashi Murakami. So they are part of the same group of artists that co-created in their early career. So what we got from Katsuya was a set of 11 virtual reality sculpted statues. It was only the mesh. So like for those of you that are familiar with technology, we got them as an FBX format. So like literally use the geometry. That means it's kind of like use this structure and then we did all the work of texturing and making it look like this aging bronze statues that we could port into a mobile phone. Everything that we do works from iPhone 6s and above. So that means that we support nearly the 80% of the whole market in iOS only and then they correspond for Android. But the cool thing about this is that it's not only the statues, it's not only the thing that you can see in front of you. It's also that we have, similar to what you guys were developing at Tosula, we also have a map tool where you can put a series of experiences on specific GPS geofensive coordinates. Basically what it means is that you have to physically be there to actually access it. And then that collaborating with the artist we can place this artwork in specific places that are meaningful to the art piece. And not only that, but we can do so simultaneously on more than one spot. So this one we are probably gonna release it soon, like in the next couple months or so. I have been saying that for a couple months. But we're gonna release it here in Vancouver outside of his gallery in Japan, Tokyo and it's in a parking in LA. So it's gonna be like a simultaneous art journey. Then it revolves around what's reality and what's real. So definitely check it out when we actually publish it. So, but it's not only the statue itself, we also can create interaction. So we, coming from the gaming industry, for us interaction is a meaningful way to communicate in tank or a creative way to do storytelling where you don't only passively watch artwork, but you are engaged with it by interacting with it, right? So I'm gonna show you a little video of what that looks like. Oh, it's opening the website. That's very old UI, which I hate, but it works. And that is pretty much it for me. So today I brought for the show and tell afterwards. I brought the first six interactive statues from Katsuya Turada as well as the flock of birds that we developed both on augmented reality. So just like come hit me up and I'll show it all to you. Thank you. Thank you, Heather. I'm gonna ask Kendra Panconi to come up and join me. There she is. It's hard to see with all the lights. And we're gonna go decidedly analogue, except for, I'm gonna ask you to speak into one of these microphones for our friends at home. I thought. Just to say a few words about the only L. I'm sorry to hold this one. Thanks. I'm the last person who should be speaking to you. I was half an hour late because I couldn't work with Google Maps this morning. So I'm coming from a really different place in the conversation about augmented reality and virtual reality, but I'm kind of just here to talk about reality. Specifically about climate reality. Our company is called The Only Animal and we do work in part for solutionary outcomes to the climate crisis. And one of the things, I'm gonna assume you guys have some basic climate literacy because you're people and you're on Facebook and you open articles every once in a while. But for example, we talk a lot about the livable planet being 1.5 degrees Celsius temperature raise. Who knows where we are right now? I think we're at 1.1 right now. Who knows if we stay on the track that we're on how much the planet is meant to warm. We stay on the emissions track we're on. More than four. More than four in our lifetimes. So it is hard to live in a reality where everything that we're doing is connected with that, right? The IPCC report from the last one in 2019 said that in 2020 our emissions for a livable planet 1.5 degrees, our emissions have to that has to be the peak this year that we're in. We're in February of this year. This has to be the peak and then we have to begin a decline. So how do we create from that reality? I think a lot of us get super tight up in our individual carbon footprints. So do you know in line with a livable planet what an individual's carbon budget should be? What we're experiencing here is the failure in climate communications, right? We all know how to recycle because an incredible amount of effort went into training us how to recycle. But I'm here in a group of people. How many of you have graduate degrees? Raise your hands.  Somebody knows, who knows? So I think it's six. The number that I use is two tons because it does the global averaging but you're climate well educated, right? Because he's able to, like we're having the negotiation about well which set of data are you using?  It's so bizarre, I'm talking to you within this symposium about this. But let's keep going. So what is the carbon impact or what's the carbon usage for me to fly from Vancouver to London and back in tons? So it's two tons for a yearly budget for an individual. What is it to fly to London and back? Five tons. Now I am not here to inflict you with carbon guilt. We all have carbon guilt and that's not useful. It's useful for me personally to try to live in reality and I run a theater company. What is a theater company's carbon budget? Is a ridiculous question because companies don't get carbon budgets. Just humans, humans on earth, carbon based life forms get carbon budgets. But companies, ExxonMobil, the only animal do not get carbon budgets. They are part of my carbon budget. And the moment when I realized this totally turned my head inside out. I am sharing my carbon budget with my company.  But I'm so responsible and I think Ian is gonna speak about what the carbon impact of digital technologies are because it's not nothing. But I'm also here to present the idea that we should have 20% of our focus on our individual carbon footprint because we are not gonna get there by washing out our plastic bags. It is not gonna get us there. And 80% of our focus, these brilliant minds in this room is on creating systemic change. And when I'm looking at the wetsuit and protests that are going on, I am seeing how difficult it is to create systemic change. And I know that the people in this room are the good guys. I know that because I have done a lot of online dating recently. And the people who are not artists are really not worth talking to. It's you guys. It is you guys. I'm serious about this. And a real failure at online dating, but. So, on that. The list of failure. The list of Kendra Pankone's online dating. I'm so glad this is being broadcast. Swipe right on your screen right now, ladies and gentlemen. How do we contribute significantly to systemic change? So I am, as like the Climate Theater poster child of Canada right now, which is not a title that I feel like I come honestly to just one that I sometimes, the cap that I wear when I sit around the tables. But I'm in these conversations with the other people who are creating the climate narrative with scientists, with journalists, with academics. And what those, even faith leaders, leaders of organizations who work with newcomers to Canada, I'm in those conversations. And what they are all saying to me is we need the artists. How do we get artists? We need artists on our team because guess what's boring and depressing? Anything about climate. It is so hard to grapple with. Like I do it, like I open the article about whatever wildlife situation we're in or about IPCC or whatever. I start to read it, I start to panic and I just say I'm gonna leave that tab open on my computer and I'll get back to it later. Maybe you are braver than me. Maybe you read all the books and all the articles and are in action in your life in a way that is not in contradiction to that situation. But I find it a constant struggle because we have built a whole society as we know that ignores this. But as we know it will not be ignorable for long and by the time we get to the point that it is not ignorable it is too late. It is baked in. 2020 has to be our peak emission. How we create systemic change I think what I have figured out so far is you go to the area that intersects your passion, whatever it is, we're gonna lift a big thing together. We all have to find a place around the table to be able to grab on. Climate is intersectional. Climate justice and land rights and all of that is absolutely part of the climate narrative. And we need to get in, we need to. The only way forward that I see to live with that climate reality and as my reality, as the reality that I'm not blocking or denying when I'm doing my work is to start working with the organizations that are telling the climate story. Here are the kinds of things that they're coming to me and saying. We need artists on think tanks. We need artists working for activist organizations like David Suzuki Foundation, Nature Conservancy Canada, like SPAC, you name it. And we need to have artists in residency there. There needs to be art on every press release. There needs to be art at every press conference. There needs to be art attached to every petition. When I've been talking to DSF, one of the things they said to me is, am I taking too much time? So I don't, yeah. Okay, one of the things they said to me is we have a clean energy petition that's got 50,000 signatures in Canada. Can an artist help us to do something with that so that that petition doesn't just slide off a politician's desk and land in the trash? And I was like, yes, it's not hard. That's what we do. Like that's an amazing dance piece. That's an amazing fine arts piece. That's an amazing yada, yada, yada. If you're attracted to the protest movement, the protest movement needs art. Vancouver's protest movement is like really in need of us. If you're attracted to working with journalists, solution-based journalism is looking for artists to help tell the climate story. Because art does that thing of all, everything that we're seeing, all this delight, innovation, all of the things that attract us in that activate that raccoon sensibility that we have having opposable thumbs and also interested in shiny things, that we craft the way for people to receive the climate story. Because the people at David Suzuki Foundation are telling me it's just not working what we're doing. Fact-based approach is dead. We need arts-based approach. And that is all over environmental organizations in Canada. And I think there's room. I also think there's money. I think there's partnerships. And I think they are beating down the door to get to us. They don't know where we live. And we don't know where they live. Like, there's a little bit of investigation to do there. But I know that the people in this room, with all of the degrees that are in this room, can find them. And I think it's up to us to go and open those doors and start those conversations. I wanna work with you on your climate communications. Just that simple. Yeah. Hi, Karen, Julianne, and Kendra. I'm gonna make sure this doesn't go to stone. Join me here. Okay, so we've complicated this question a little bit. Because you came in and you thought that we were gonna be talking solely about the practicalities of interfacing between those working on the technology side and those working on the creative side. And those are also like, it's an artificial divide in and of itself as well. Actually, I wanna start with one other question. Just to sort of contextualize my next one, is that the thinking of it, because I think that the climate conversation as a great existential, the great existential crisis of our time is key. And to make good on what you've promised that I'd say, I will say that in working with other and other projects, not necessarily toaster lab projects, but where that does play a part into the way, the reason that we make what we make and the way that we make it. But working with right now, a project with the NAC on their the Cyclone Theater and Climate Change that bringing into the conversation that even when we try and do things like live streaming that or send an email or do all that coordination that it also has an impact. And so like releasing yourself from the ability to like completely correct for that and look at what you can contribute versus what you need to stop doing as a priority. I would like to ask in just a minute. Yeah. You should talk about that. It's not about me. I'm gonna make it about you for a second. Could you take one minute and just add, give us a little bit of information about what the type of work that the only animal makes. Yeah. We make immersive work with a deep connection with place. Often that means site specific work, often elemental work, often in wilderness locations. I live on the Sunshine Coast and so I'm more wild, feels like suburbian now to me, but in a more wild context. We also have created work with AR actually in the past that there was a whole stream of work that went down that way. More recently in a more climate conscious form, we've decided to be a no fly company after my last trip to the UK and grappling with those numbers. We felt like that was the ethical choice and the other kind of production-based approach that we have right now is that we're a buy-nothing new company. And that felt like the right choice for us, given our context. We've always been a company that made impossibly large work, so we have never relied on our touring again, so like no carbon guilt because we could do this. We were placed in a way where we want to be hyper-local and really rooted to the places that we live. Yeah, no, no, it's perfect and it helps me bridge to the next question because we're talking about a couple of different barriers to collaboration here, which I'd like to open up to everybody and then hopefully to a couple of questions. Is this question of these interfaces that we find ourselves of that in some way is like we're all people, but some of us find ourselves more in pushing forward the creative, maybe artistic side of it if we would take on that label, maybe the non-technologist side of it we're intersecting with technologists, we're intersecting with climate scientists. How do you find yourself in each of your practices sort of like starting to bridge this divide? You got to this a little bit Kendra. I might turn it to Hector and Julianne first. I actually think this is an access issue and I look at it in terms of the access and I was really curious about the questions you were asking earlier Kendra in terms of like access to, I interpret it as like access to the arts. So if we're gonna have conversations about climate and really bridge those gaps between technologists and artists and in fact artist and general pop, public actually is and speaks to we need more artists in different collaborative processes in different sectors, but that my interpretation and my sort of spin on it is access, like breaking down those theater walls, like not making work exclusive for people who have to go into a theater for like the message of like I do work in site-specific ways as well and on the street, like anybody can come and see that, the messages that people take home with them are key to perpetuating our work as artists as messaging it in a particular way entry points into that before we bash anybody on the head, they have to like see what we're doing first and then go along on the journey with us and so how we tell stories, how we create experiences is about that too. Particularly for me, I find that saluting people or like that's actually part of the problem with educational system that we're like, okay, you're an engineer, you're an artist, you are this, you are that, kind of put you in these blindfolds about the things that you should or should not care about and then kind of like diminish the impact that other areas can actually have in society as a whole. So for me, I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, like I'm in a bit of a big transition and then like not only being able to collaborate with other people and other causes that are relevant to you and to the people around you, but also being able to take the leap and be, you know what, maybe I'm interested in this specific aspect of technology and nowadays we have such a vast resource network in terms of what you can learn and what you can do online or the type of people you can get connected with in order to collaborate. You take a leap of faith and start using different and new emerging media in order to communicate these type of messages because in our society we are used to a very high amount of information or like stuff that gets thrown at you and then coming from the gaming industry, I know the tricks that we use to get you to keep engaged and like hook into your phone, just like come back into this and this is based on cognitive psychology and like behavior is seen from the 80s with like skinner boxes and different techniques that now are commonplace in the gaming industry. So there's like a whole ethical debate in that part but the thing is that we grab all of those things that we know about interaction and experience design and human psychology and we put that to the service of science evocation or like awareness for different social issues, particularly in the streets where it touches people not where like people have to like take that leap and just like, okay, I'm gonna go to this specific place to get educated because that's after they already know that they wanna learn about that, right? It's just like literally putting it out there and getting people enticed, right? Just like trying to like hook them in and to get that we really, really need to steer down all those barriers and collaborate with people from different mindsets and be willing to grab different pieces or like different techniques ourselves. Can you wanna add anything before leaving him? I'd like to open that up. Are there questions? All right. Well, I think we're across the stage where access to information is the limit. It's really how can we make people care about it and act on it and so in a way, I mean, that's how I use virtual reality in my classroom. So right now in the class that each basically all the students have to do VR virtual reality projects designed to create experiences that really address climate change and not in terms of, okay, yes, information about it, you can find that online. The question is what would be an experience that actually gets you to not fly or fly less or whatever, switch to Sky Train instead of driving your SUV kind of thing. So I think, and this is really where we need to bring all the different disciplines together so I totally agree with the point. Like, we need the arts, we need the scientists, we need the experience designers. There's hardly any field that we don't need to achieve this. It's, Ken, you and I were talking about this during the lunch break too, and we've talked about it a bit before but some of the origins for the way that we work at Toaster Lab and our entrance into mixed reality came actually out of doing work that was interested in remote environments that were threatened by climate change and looking at how performance interacted with places that were to be disappearing and then what are the tools that would allow someone to either experience them at a different time or place so that you could increase impact there and that's what drove us to the tools of it. So it's something that I think is an intrinsic conversation about how do we sort of open up those spaces. I wanna add a question onto that because you mentioned, Kendra, you mentioned how hard it was to tour the only animals work and I know that we've experienced that in our projects that like touring them means recreating them and there's no such thing as to tour. You do it again someplace else from scratch and Hector, you're launching something that's gonna be in multiple sites, Julian, you'd have the project that is tied to a specific place and I'm wondering about what sort of the potentials and also limitations that you see with those, that sort of like interaction of some technology that allows people to experience something asynchronously like you can come to it at a different time or perhaps experience some of it from a different place and your attachment to place and sort of how those drive, that sort of duality drives the decisions around the work in Kendra, too. Oh, no, no, go for it, please. I just wanted to sort of say that I toured with Crystal Pye, her dance company for more than 12 years internationally and nationally and these issues of carbon footprint weren't being talked about during those days and it's very challenging to think about that time and then in contact to your question about how do we recreate and site specific work and all this and I think that we're still struggling with that, like how do you create a lot, like my form is really a live experience. So what does that mean to technology? How does that transfer into like where are our markets? Is a big question we have to answer as well, opening up different markets for our work? Maybe it isn't touring anymore, maybe it's experiencing a show in a VR space that could actually tour and replace a live experience or replace something else that we pass along. But I'm still struggling with that point, like how to create in the space that you're talking about and how to cross-pollinate with other communities, other artists in those communities and share ideas is really like a fundamental thing that we would do back in the day with touring that is really important to think about as we move forward in this technology world as well. So I don't know if I answered but I'm certainly thinking about these things in a different context. Right, for me it's like you have to keep looking at what's gonna come, right? And if you look around at everything that's happening in the development of technologies like the HoloLens, the Magic Lib and like now we have a billion phones that are capable of doing augmented reality like and everyone in the past is in their pockets, we are at a point where we can easily communicate experiences, not only content, right? It's like you can communicate stuff that people can interact with and experience in totally new novel ways and that comes at a risk. There's a few very interesting examples of what is topic future like that would happen. Augmented reality glasses and then you see a bunch of ads and everyone is trying to sell you something but I feel like part of that conversation and to answer that specific question it's our decision because we as creators, as designers, we choose intentionally how we use the media, right? And for example in my work, the social interaction and being with other people in the space is very important. So whether that is site specific interactive installations or augmented reality exhibits that have social features or something that you experience in public, it becomes a matter of choice. So you would use blue where you want blue in a painting or you would use red when you want red in a painting, right? So it's kind of using that as a design language or being intentional with the choices that you do in terms of developing these experiences for the future, being aware of what's gonna happen and how that's gonna shape like future experiences that are going to occur next year. When we decided to become a no-fly company, it was a decision that was, it was an intense amount of grief to let go of that. And but what I had to reckon with is the belief that it's here already, that the community is here with which to create our work, that the people are here to experience our work and that we don't need other people in other places. And that hyper locality has for us made us dig much more deeply into our community to look for the lighting designer that we always brought from Regina, the director we wanted to hire from Toronto and just go, okay, those options are off the table, what is here? And it has led to an intense and dedicated commitment to discovering more in our community.  So, well, where haven't we gone that's within the range of my electric car? Like, do I really know what's on Vancouver Island? Have I explored this and that and the other?  And so there's been a profound gift in those things and I still rely on the digital world for a lot of inspiration. I feel like that is like inspiration connectivity ideas. And then that I can disseminate the idea of hyper locality when people call me and say, can you come to Ottawa and talk, blah, blah, blah. I can say, no, but I know someone in Ottawa who's doing that work. And you're much more likely to continue that work if you talk to that person in Ottawa who you can build a real time relationship with. And I feel like even as the digital technologies get better and we wanna use the heck out of all of the abilities of like all of our board meetings happen on Zoom because we just have decided that our board is a national board because we need some of that intelligence. So we want to use those kind of tools to the best of our ability, but not, we want to use them in a carbon conscious way. Knowing that we're at time, I'm gonna thank our panelists for sharing your work and your comments. And we'll take one moment right now to switch over to our third and final panel for the day. Thank you. I'm delighted to introduce the next panel. Aziz, thank you so much everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.


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