This is the VOA Special English Education Report. Current and former students from Berkeley College of Music in Boston recently returned to the United States after three weeks in Kenya. They were part of a cultural exchange program aiming to influence lives through music. They taught music, performed and donated instruments to a Kenyan community center. They also learned about traditional Kenyan music. Music is an important part of life in Kenya. Sam Lutomia works for the Berkeley College of Music, but he was born and spent his early years in Kenya. He helped to create a group called Global Youth Groove. Its goal is to bring Western music to young Kenyans and get them to consider music as a career. Mr. Lutomia says he started talking with Berkeley students and teachers and they all liked the idea. Then they started collecting musical instruments. 13 Americans made the trip to Kenya in July. They included four high school students from the Boston area. The first stop was Nairobi. There, they got a chance to meet with local musicians and listen to them play. Project coordinator Erin Colverson says the American group presented a gift during a visit to Kakamega in Western Kenya. The gift included about 20 instruments, some recorders and an entire drum kit. The Americans also gave out laptop computers and recording software. Many Kenyans attended the activities offered by the group. One Berkeley student, David Chapman, said for some of the Kenyans, it was the first time to see and touch such instruments. Erin Colverson says music can give someone a sense of power. When you put music in front of children, he says, it seems that their minds open up. Music gives them a chance to express themselves through songs and writing the songs. The Americans also performed at a national music festival. During the trip, Erin Colverson says they met with local musicians and listened to them play. They also learned about traditional Kenyan instruments, dances and songs. Trip organizer Sam Lutomia says he is happy with the levels of energy the exchange program has produced. He hopes the trip will take place every year and expand to neighboring countries. For VOA Special English, I'm Alex Villareal. You can learn English and stay informed every day from your computer or mobile device at voaspecialenglish.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter and iTunes at VOA Learning English.


In thinking about glorified bodies for believers, what is Dr. Heiser's thought on why Jesus would have retained scars from the crucifixion in spite of having a completely new glorified body post-resurrection? Or maybe that's not true for us. Then again, what does this say for those believers who've been dismembered or otherwise scarred? I think that in the case of Jesus, I think what happens in the narratives and the way he's portrayed is deliberate. I think it's also deliberately selective in terms of the wounds that Jesus has in the resurrection body. It was deliberately selective to authenticate that this was, in fact, Jesus. Now you note in the descriptions of the resurrected Christ that the other wounds of the crucifixion are not there. The whippings, the scarred brow from the crown of thorns, the punches and beatings and all that stuff. None of that's present with Jesus' resurrected body. He is completely whole and new in the sense that that stuff's gone. But the wounds of the cross are present. And again, I think that was providential that God did that again to authenticate that this isn't somebody else. This is specifically Jesus. So the wounds of being nailed to the cross, the spear in the side remain to prove, authenticate that this was in fact the same person who was crucified, Jesus of Nazareth. So consequently, I think in those instances are exceptional and that glorification will involve wholeness and healing because the rest of Jesus' wounds are healed. Again, the only ones that remain are to authenticate who it was. And so I think in the case of our own bodies, we don't have to worry about having a glorified body that still is dismembered, that sort of thing. I think we'll be made whole, we'll be made new and we'll still be identifiable. Again, there are indications of Scripture here and there are little comments about heavenly scenes and whatnot where people are identifiable and people know who they are. So I think we'll be intact and recognizable and whole and complete.


mae gwwled yn 25 ymlaen, oeddeni gynnwys i'w ddweud. Felly, y dyma'n 8 yn ymlaen, rydyn ni'n sicr, 4.45 am yn y ddweud, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gwahodd o'r blasemydau i'w 12, 5.50 ti'n gyhoedd. Heid. Rydyn ni'n gweithio, rydyn ni'n heid. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gwahodd, rydyn ni'n gweithio i'r blasemydau, rydyn ni'n gweithio, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio. ac rwy'n gilydd i gynnwch i'w i fynd y bus yn dweud y peth. Rwy'n gilydd i'r bus ar y cwylwr i'ch bod y cwylwr i'u ei dweud mewn bus. Rydyn i'n 15 minu iawn am y bus. A'r hynny'n cael ei gydag. Rwy'n gwybod i'r moedd gwaith. Rhyw pwysredinol, rydyn i'r holl. Rydyn i'r bwysredinol, rydyn i'r staf. Caer ddraeio a'n case i ddegu. Rydyn i ddau'n cael holl. Rydyn i'r holl boeth yn fawr. I'll see you all at 8pm when I finish. I've arrived, so far the place looks really nice, it's a really small area, it looks really friendly, all the staff seem nice so far, but I'm here early, half an hour earlier so I'm going to go and have a cup of tea and settle in and hopefully meet my mentor and hopefully have a great day, so I'll see you all later. I don't know if you have told you all but this is a dementia rehabilitation ward, it's very much community feeling and community based, so there is I think 18 beds or was it 16 beds, I think there's 18 beds, so all of the patients they do have dementia and they are there either because they're a step down from the ward before they go back into the home, sort of just to get them back up and motivated and mobilised again before they go home. Also we get people for respite so people will book the sort of family members in for respite, like for a week or two weeks let's say, so for example if the family are their primary carers and they're going on holiday they can't take the patient with them then the patient will come to us and stay with us for a week or two while they go off on holiday. And to be honest I think that's really really important because if you're caring for someone 24-7 you need, I think you need that break, you need that for you as the carer and the patient needs that to sort of get out of that situation and go to somewhere else where they can see new faces, new conversations and it's like a mini holiday for them as well. I think that's really important just for everybody to have that time out and then come back, refreshed, recharged and back to it. So that's basically the sort of patients we have and we have a few nurses, healthcare assistants, there's housekeeping, there's the reception, there's ward clerks, there's matrons, there's bed managers, there's advanced nurse, practitioners who can prescribe and there's no doctor but there is an on-call doctor there. So if there's anything that's going down, the doctor gets called and the layout of the ward is very much community feel so you have got a proper kitchen area, you've got a dining room where all the residents go down and they go to the dining room to eat together and they've got a TV room so they can all go to the TV room and watch TV together if they want to. And then you've got three bays with four beds in each bay and then you've got a set amount of side rooms, private rooms for patients and you've got the male and female bays separate as well. So it's really like I'm one of these people that I like a good layout when I go into a workplace or a ward or a conference or event or something like that. Like I'm all about layouts and this one is really nice. I really really like it. It's got big open windows, the light comes in, the bays are lovely, the side rooms are lovely, there's loads of space considering it's classed as a ward.  So this is really nice. I feel really comfortable in this place and it's really easy to find your way around. So I really like that about the place and it's got a garden. It's got a garden that the residents can go and sit in and enjoy the sunshine and the fresh air. What ward has that? I mean they do have sort of I suppose outside areas but this has got a really nice garden. So I'm planning to take residents out there and encourage them to get some fresh air and sunshine because it can make a world of difference. So yeah, so that's basically the ward and the layout. Yesterday was a really good day. It was a lot quieter and a lot slower than a regular ward which threw me because I'm used to being really busy and getting on and doing things. So I was sort of walking around like what can I do now? What can I do now? What's to do? Tell me what to do. I need to do something. So it was a little bit slow but it was really really nice because you could take that time out to sort of find your feet and get to know the patients, talk to the patients, talk to the staff, get to know the staff, get to know the routine of the ward properly rather than just being thrown in and everything going to mush. So from that aspect it was really really good. All of the staff were absolutely amazing. They're so so lovely and the patients are so lovely.  So it's just, I mean I love the elderly and I love dementia so it is right up my street and I knew I would like it but the night before the week leading up to placement I was a bit nervous about it because it's a new placement. It's the fear of the unknown that we all have when we go to placement. We all get scared basically and until you've done that first shift you're going to be scared to death about placement. But it was good. It was a really good day. I learned, actually I learned something. No I didn't learn something new. I did something new. So yesterday if you remember for those of you that watched previous vlogs, one of our last modules of second year was all about writing a care plan. I was really excited because I haven't done a care plan previously like this before if that makes sense. So when I worked in elderly people's homes years ago we always did care plans for everything so their personal hygiene, their mobility, all think they would be separate care plans for everything and you would sign each day to say you followed that care plan. So since then I haven't done anything. You don't get anything like that on the wards usually. It's normally tick boxes and sign sheets, assessment charts, things like that. But these were proper care plans so you'd have your problem that you've identified so if a patient can't wash themselves properly, if they need encouragement, motivation. And then you'll have the goal. Okay what is your goal for that problem when you want it to be achieved by and the intervention on how you're going to do that. So yesterday I sat down and looked at it and I was like I'm going to do a care plan for the first time in forever. The first time ever as a student nurse doing a care plan we've done it in the module so I should have some knowledge behind it and I can put it into practice. Yes, put in the theory to practice. This is what I love about placement. So I sat down and I got a few out. So I got personal care, I got oral care and a blank one. So I did three for this one patient so I did with personal care because she needs encouragement and she needs a lot of help with her personal care. And one of the things that the son had actually said to me was while she's here could you clean her nails and cut her nails because she won't let anybody do it. So I was like okay don't know how this is going to work but we'll give it a go because we have to try. So if you don't try you don't know. So I sat there and I thought okay problem identifying the patient's nails are quite dirty, they're quite long and because she clenches her fists it's sort of a hazard so we don't want that to happen so we want to get those nails short. What's my problem and then the goal is to try and encourage patient to clean and cut nails but she can't do it herself so I'm going to have to distract her, I'm going to have to motivate her, I'm going to have to use different techniques and it's probably going to take me a whole day to do this. It's not going to be a quick problem to solve.  Nail care is often forgotten and it's really nice. It was one of the things I love as well as cleaning dentures. One of the things I love is doing people's nails and feet and getting them clean. But anyway that was the goal. Intervention is gain consent from the patient, try and do the nail care, try and cut the nails if not get Adie that comes to cut nails so see if she will do it, if she won't accept me to do it or if she won't accept another member of staff. Try different members of staff because sometimes it's just a different face that helps and a different approach and a different way of saying things to the patient. You have to try everything possible to finally get your result and your goal but we'll see. She's with us for a week so we'll see by next week I'm praying I've done those nails because that is my target and that's what I'm going to do and I've promised the son that I will try so I'm going to do that. So yeah so that was really really good to do those care plans. Oh and the blank one I put activities. This was something I personally put into place when I was asking about the patient's history and what she liked to do before. Activities wise like what were her hobbies, what did she do and you made a comment that she used to love bingo but she doesn't do it anymore and she doesn't do anything. The only thing she likes to do is listen to the radio. She'll listen to radio too but she used to watch Coronation Street and things like that but she just doesn't watch a telly anymore because their attention span just isn't there. So I thought okay well do you know what let's try and do something because I want her to have a sense of belonging. What sort of quality of life is that if you're just sitting there listening to the radio and I felt a little bit sad by that. Obviously it can't be helped it's the nature of dementia unfortunately you do become unaware of things and sort of I don't want to offend anyone by saying this but you sort of become in your little bubble and that's your bubble and you're happy just being in that bubble I think just from what I know. I hope I've explained that right but I wanted to put something in place to get this patient to partake in activities for someone to encourage this patient to get out of her room even to sit in the garden and he said that she used to do gardening. I was wondering whether maybe we could take her into the garden and she can see the flowers and it's very sensory because I think people of dementia do like that sensory thing. They're like sort of lights, they're like textures, they're like to rub things, they're like to feel things, they're like to picket things, they're like to listen to things, different sounds. So I'm thinking that or when there's some activities going on, some music activities, maybe even bingo, I'm going to have a look at the week and see if there's an activities chart to try and get her and encourage her and motivate her to go down and take part in those. I mean she might need help but she's going to love it, I think she's going to really love it. In my head it's going to be amazing and I'm praying that it's going to be good. So that was the other care plan I did to encourage the patients to partake in activities to give her that sense of belonging and quality of life, giving her that back and hopefully it's going to be good and hopefully I'm going to win at that. Fingers crossed I can do this. So yeah, so other things that went on, I did the care plans, I did admissions, I haven't done a discharge there yet but I did a new admission so you have to go through all of the risk assessments with the patient going over how they mobilise, how they transfer from chair to bed, the risk of falls, risk of pressure sores, nutrition, their fluid intake, manual handling, all of that. There's quite a lot. So we did all of that, well I did all of that, I got it already and then I went back to my mentor and said okay just check that I've done this right because it's a new setting, I haven't been at this particular hospital before, it's all new paperwork, it's not paperwork I'm familiar with but I got on and I did it and then I got my mentor just to check over to make sure I was doing it properly and luckily I did it alright and he did say I've done it alright, there was just one or two things that I sort of did extra that I didn't have to do so he removed that and that was it, I was like yes I've done it. So all in all it was a really good day. I think I'm going to really enjoy it apart from it being like a little bit slower paced that that's the only issue but I don't think that's an issue because I've got more time to do paperwork and catch up with things and spend time with patients which is amazing which is what I always want. I'm going to spend the next couple of days revising for this next exam, I have two weeks until this exam, not counting down or anything, I'm panicking, hopefully it'll be okay but I'll let you know how it goes. I'll probably be crying at the end of it but yeah so I'm back in Friday, Saturday and then I'm off Sunday which will be today and hopefully I'm going to be having a nice day, I'm going to be relaxing, I'm going to do a little bit of revision and chilling out. So that's it from me, I don't think I'm going to get a chance to vlog Friday Saturday just because I'm not going to finish until really really late and then I'm not going to finish until late Saturday, I'm not going to have a chance to edit this video. So I might just post this one and then I'll catch up with you all next week and just because the time it takes for my videos to upload because my wifi is absolutely shocking, it takes all night to upload. So I'm not going to have time, I don't think to vlog Friday Saturday's placements but the weekend after I'm off so I will have time to get a vlog together and post that one for next week. So I might combine it all together but we'll see. So I hope you all have an amazing week, I shall see you all next week and hopefully it's going to be an amazing week. Fingers crossed.


Road closed, except the bikes. That's right. Good morning, my friends. From the base of Mount Evans, Colorado, we're going to do a big one today. We're going to ride our bikes up to the top of Mount Evans. This, by the way, is the tallest, highest paved road in all of North America. And the great thing about today, this whole season, is that the road is closed to cars. Only bikes and pedestrians. It's closed because of COVID, I think. And, of course, I wouldn't want to do this thing alone. I'm bringing along my favorite person in the whole world, your favorite person in the whole world. Make some noise for Dana. Rise and shine and go climb a mountain, mountain. How you doing, Dana? I'm doing great. And we are riding the brand new priority Apollo gravel bike. Check this out. Oh, yeah. Let me show you the coolest thing. Show them the coolest thing, Dana. OK, look at that. Look at that orange rocket. Oh, the orange rocket. Dana likes the red rocket. I love it. I will be doing a full review on this bike in another video. And, of course, what's unique about this bike? All priority bikes have the carbon belt drive and some sort of internal gearing system. It's all about low maintenance people. Ding-ding. Ready? That way. And here's a fun fact for all of you outside of Colorado. There are 53 14ers in this state. Is that right? I don't know. I don't know. I think there's 53 mountains over 14,000 feet. We in Colorado call them 14ers. And I've never biked to the top of a 14er. It's usually something you hike. Dana just reminded me. I forgot something very important. Dana, let's start. No flatties. No crashes. No whammies. No whammies. Without cars, the probability of whammies are much lower, which is nice. And look at this. Woo, look at this. It keeps getting better. And we still have a long way to go. Man, this is beautiful. I'm going to have some big smile wrinkles after this ride. Dana, where are we at on the altimeter? 11, 999, 12,000. Yay. One nice thing about this mountain, even though it's the highest paved road in America, is that the grade is very friendly for cycling. It's only about five-ish at the steepest. Tell me when we hit 13,000. OK. 13,000 feet. OK. Are we there? No. Are we there yet? Three more. Three more feet. One. Ready. Two. 13. Right on. 13,000 feet. This is the highest I've been this summer. Nothing on the Great Divide was this high. Mile 10, four more to go. What's your favorite part about right now? Being in my body, you can feel it. It's great. You just feel like, my heart's going. I'm breathing. Good to be alive. Grateful. Sharp turn. Going right. Nice. Here, friend, going left. Girl. Check it out. I made a friend. His name's Billy. What's up, bud? Only two miles to go. I feel like we're going too fast, Dana. We've got to slow it down. I know, I know. We've got to enjoy this. Hello. The only people we're seeing up here are other cyclists.  This is almost unheard of on top of a mountain here in Colorado. But there is literally zero wind. It is so nice and calm. We picked the right day. It's a unicycle. Look at that. Way to go. Amazing. That is so cool. That just made this day pretty much perfect. That woman rode a unicycle 14 miles up this road. Wow, she was in a hurry. I would have liked to have talked to her, but I'm proud of you. Go, Dana. Go, Dana. Go, go, go, Dana. Look at this. High five, Dana. Yeah, we did it. There's my Apollo bike. And there is Colorado. So, Dana, we're not at the top? No, but we're so close. The top is right up there. So we're going to hike it. We're going so we can do love shout outs. All right, let's do it. Get it to the top. This is really cool. Oh my god, I've got a little bit of that dizzy feeling because I'm close to the edge, but woo, it feels good. Yeah. Brian, that's why I have my helmet on. Yeah, exactly. They can certainly hear these love shout outs, whereas about as high as you can get in Colorado, and we live way over there, the echo is taking the love to them. So mountains always bring out my best thinking and deepest thoughts. And Dana said something to me earlier, and I would like her to share it with you because I think it's really important. Dana? I had a birthday this summer, and I turned 59. And I'm so grateful for that. But it's occurring to me that my brother passed when he was 49. And so I have lived 10 years longer and had all of those experiences and all of those journeys.  And I don't want to take a single one for granted. And today was one of those days. This is one of the best days ever. Like, I am standing on the top of a 14er. It's like 14, two, I don't know. In all of my 59 years, and I've done quite a few of them, it's never been this still, this calm, and this warm. Unbelievable. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Dana. Such a great day. This is such a great day. I love it, I love it. Yeah. And now we get to go down and have fun. Let's go down. Let's go down. What do you say? Whoop and holler. Let's whoop and holler. Let's do it. Please, if you like this video, check out all my other videos. I have lots of adventures from all over the world. Like and subscribe and do all that fun stuff. Anything else? Patreon. Oh, Patreon if you're feeling generous.  Do it. Do it. And I'll leave you with one last view.


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So we, this session is on the live stream on HowlRound. So functionally what that means for everyone here is just make sure you have a mic when you're talking. There are a lot of mics around so it shouldn't be hard but I know that might be, feel a little cumbersome but it's important so that people can hear the conversation. So thanks for coming to this breakout session and I thought we could start, if you heard me talk I talked about the idea of community narrative and how we measure the stories that get told about a place or the stories that we tell ourselves about our own places and it would be super interesting to me if we just started by sharing if people have ideas or parts of their project that they feel like are about narrative or if you, certainly if you have any questions I'm happy to answer those but I'm kind of anxious also to hear about all of your work. So is there anybody who wants to get started with some thoughts? That's my friend, no, I don't know why that's like that. Your imaginary friend. You specifically asked about. Yes. Thank you. Ours is a narrative of pushing relentlessly on the city to do what was right for the community. We took a 30,000 square foot parking lot that the Seattle Police Department used surrounded by a razor wire fence right next to massive transit investments and it had a police, the police department there and of course all the city and union issues around that and over 13 years and through two neighborhood plans the neighborhood specifically called out activating that space and it took us four city mayors to get there but we finally got them to allow us to, we're developers to redevelop this space as affordable housing and art space but it was only by reframing the project as a win for the arts. The first decade it was about affordable housing and when we brought in the arts as not a needy issue not as something that was holding out his hand and asking for money but as a way to activate space suddenly the elected officials got it so it was that plus marching down to city hall with the Chamber of Commerce, the community council the head of a couple of arts organizations and all showing up with a unified voice and saying this is a community priority for us so framing it both as a win for the whole community and not about our desire to develop more property was finally the narrative that got the city's attention. I think that's super interesting to think about how sometimes narrative is about finding the big win for the community or finding the big sort of inflection point. For us it was much more about how do you create lots of little opportunities that together make up a narrative but I think those are both sort of common those are two different but both common sort of approaches or community challenges. How do you create the sort of big point of pride and then how do you create ongoing repetition of a narrative or of an opportunity? Leslie? I sort of wanna bring it back to what you were saying up there because I think we all know how to tell our stories whereas what I thought was so compelling about what you said in particular but also your colleagues was that you had visual numeric narratives, results oriented narratives and in your case in particular you took the kind of data that I used to work and marketing is very familiar to people who do marketing campaigns but not something like media impressions is not something that's usually associated with arts projects so you sort of found another source of data to validate your results and create your narrative of what is success and I think that I mean I think that was where Liz was kind of pushing all of us which is how do you create a narrative of results? And what data do you draw on in a world where there isn't sort of blueprint for data? I mean if we were all doing ad campaigns it'd be really easy. When I used to do ad campaigns for a high tech company super easy to measure and compare to previous ad campaigns really hard in our world to come up with a commonality that I'll put Susan on spot, Susan on the funder. You know sort of how unless Susan gives us a template and we squirrel into a template from a funder then how do we all measure results? So I'm sort of interested in that results for you to the narrative and how people. Do people have other examples of places where you've found like from another sector or sort of a set of data that you didn't know existed before? My name is Bob and I'm executive director of Modesto Art Museum. Our program is building a better Modesto in response to the livability issues in Modesto. We created in some way a new narrative for the city but we did it based on data that we discovered that people had overlooked for many generations and that is that Modesto had a real design heritage especially in architecture from the 1930s to the 1970s and this was a narrative that had been forgotten even though it was published in many books over the decades it just was forgotten. So we dug that up and created a new narrative of Modesto as a design city, a city interested in design, a city that's known for its architecture. We built an architecture festival around that. The first year about 200 people came last year we had 5,000 real life people and 20,000 people online. It was nine days and 100 events. We've got architecture tours that you can download so there's a whole new narrative and one of the ways that I have measured our success is that in the media now in the last architecture festival via magazine referred to Modesto as a design hotbed and I wasn't there but somebody told me that when they were on Amtrak going through Modesto when they got to Modesto the conductor said next stop is Modesto a city known for its mid-century modern architecture. I consider those signs of success because we're changing not just the narrative within the city but in the surrounding area and I took that as being very important but I know we're another sign of success is that we put online three architecture tours that you can download either to your device or you can print them out they're just PDFs and we keep a track of how many people download them and you know we were getting respectable numbers but during September of last year during the architecture festival more than 7,000 were downloaded and that was one of our success indicators. The other thing that I think of in terms of mining where we find this kind of information or where I feel like there's a huge opportunity for us as a field to be able to articulate our value or demonstrate value is you can also kind of reverse engineer it and look at places where people are paying to create narratives so for us during a big construction project like this often a city will pay for a bunch of paid advertisements of this business or that thing is happening so I didn't talk about this in my presentation but we were actually able to take these numbers and put them up against how much the city was spending on ad space for many of the same local businesses and it's not that one is better than the other but we had something to anchor it to something to compare the numbers to and so I wonder too if there are other places like that where we can look at the things that whether it's city or other partners are already putting resources into and see if we can measure against those things as an opportunity for sustaining the relationship or continuing the work. And this isn't an example of that but you're an example maybe of the earlier thing which is our work is we don't have enough structure to have anybody really in charge of marketing and I'm a member of an art group in Anchorage that calls itself the Light Brigade and all our work is time based and site specific and one time only we've kind of discovered that our best marketing strategy has been to keep our plans really quiet and that has actually worked really well. It wasn't the way we set out to approach it but it's worked and one of our goals is to just get people talking about creative place making and to get people in our community discussing what it means to live in a city that's becoming really increasingly vibrant and active around art groups going out and doing staging urban art interventions in the community rather it's sort of spontaneously we want people to discuss that and we're not sure where the discussion is gonna go or how to guide it but we wanna know if they are and so the easiest way to do that is just to track hashtags. Every time we do something, every time we have an event, every time we make stage an intervention or there is one that some other art group is doing locally, you just start following it and the next thing you know, you start to accumulate these clusters of buzz that are very, very, how shall I say, quantifiable and you just have to tie them back because they always go like this. They always have a, they build, they plateau and then they fall off and it always corresponds to the week before, the day of and the week after and it just makes a really beautiful flow chart. I think that's super smart and I think that or accounting media impressions, there are ways of making, those are sort of proxies or ways of making a community conversation more visible so the proxy there is that you would assume if people are talking about it on Twitter with a hashtag that there is also an in-person conversation happening that probably follows that same arc but those tools make it easier to show it. We're trying to track in New London, Connecticut, it's a seaport town with ferries, transit, everybody, we want them to drive to and not keep driving through so we're trying to do a public art project that counts like how long did you stay and did you see these shops and all of that. It's just a lot of places I work have the problem of people just driving through. So if anybody has any good tools for measuring that. You mean measuring whether people stop or measuring which piece of that do you feel like is important to measure? Staying instead of driving through, like more people staying lingering downtown. So how do you measure whether you're capturing people? I guess the merchants can but there aren't that many merchants we're in a process of doing a storefront program. Do you have parking meters? They are just not functioning at this time. Things are bad. But I think those kinds of, like again there are proxy measurements that you could track over time about have somebody stand outside and count how long the car is parked or count the traffic at the highway wayside gas station versus the in town gas station or some kind of way of being able to see something about. There has to be a public art project in this so I haven't figured it out. If anybody has any ideas let me know. I like the idea of gas station residencies I think. Other ideas, questions for each other? I'm certainly not the expert here. One thing to add, I'm from the Lanes River Art Center in Lanes River, Minnesota and our town is 750 people and so all of these big numbers and metrics and data we don't have the resources right now to do that but more importantly it doesn't really matter to a lot of our stakeholders because they don't want to see numbers, they want to see more kids in the school district, they want to see more businesses in the vacant storefronts downtown and so I'm just thinking like personally I know that there are people who move to Lanes River because they like the culture there, they like that we're doing stuff, they like that there's a world class art center and theater there right in this rural place and they have told me there's this couple, they have three kids, they moved to town and they have said we wanted to come here because of what you guys are doing and but it's really hard to sell that like one example as a reason to believe in the project so I'm wondering if anyone has any good ideas for platforms to showcase examples like that that really do make an impact on people and I've brought this up like in talking with some of our legislatures and things and they're really interested in that but really showing the measurement that those types of things can make I don't know if there's any similar situations or anything that you could add or help me try to figure out how best to describe our situation in things like our interim report or in future grant proposals to more economic based projects. Do people have ideas? Anybody have ideas for Courtney? I don't know how you would put it in a interim report necessarily but I think the resources of like I love the story of those people and being able to capture that on your iPhone and make a little movie out of it like testimonial movie that could be and then you could transcribe that I suppose in a report. And where do you think we should share that information? Maybe that's a bigger question who needs to know about that and how do we make that more visible? I guess that would depend on who the audience is I mean in terms of what you're trying to use that tool for is it to get more people involved? Yeah I guess maybe just to bring more legitimacy to the project or to the notion of getting people to move there I guess that's maybe cause that's the ultimate goal we want our town to survive and so we need more people to move there because that family brought three kids to the school district which is incredible in a town like I'm from there and I graduated in class of 25. That was my graduating class so it's just a very interesting way to kind of look at how our town is surviving. I think visuals are really helpful. We need to get a new website and understanding what the program or what do I get by moving to this city? How is my life going to be enriched and having people talk about it showing what you're doing? That's a great way to do it I think. I think you can also looking at Brian's work in Cleveland to be able to do a community perception survey in some ways that's an easier task in a smaller community I mean you could get a pretty significant portion of the population probably to fill out that survey and the other asset you have in terms of sort of proximity and a more statewide community in Minnesota is you could also survey people outside of Lanesboro who live in the Twin Cities or Duluth or Mankato about their perception cause I feel like your work has reputation that stretches way beyond Lanesboro so to be able to share that outwardly but also share it with community members I feel like that's particularly meaningful to be able to say people all over the state know Lanesboro because of this work they know that this is a good place to live an interesting place, a place with these assets. Sometimes we've done a lot of work where we're both trying to tell the story outwardly to sort of from a more marketing perspective but also to reflect that story back for the people who are creating it I think is really important. The other project that came out of Brian's work in Cleveland is that they did this really great postcard project that Brian showed where they were their goal was the same to try and get people to move there and they sent postcards to artists in New York and artists places all over the country that essentially were ads for Cleveland and for their neighborhood that were about how affordable it was what a great place it was and it really worked they've sold those houses partly because of their sort of outward reaching philosophy. Hi, I'm Jessica and I had an art place grant for the Building Imagination Center and one of the things that we did is we brought in video artists to make movies with the community about the community so it was a way of showing people outside of the community what we have to offer but it was also a way to show the community itself what it's already doing and then putting those things on Facebook and on Vimeo and updating the Wikipedia site about our city, all those things I think work together. I'm Kimberly Van Dyke from Wilson, North Carolina with the Vala Simpson World League project and kind of in the beginning Michael talked about how in his community the value of his project it sort of didn't bring value to the community until they talked about the arts component while in our project it was sort of the opposite interestingly enough. So when our project started there were a lot of people in the community that didn't find value in the project because it was art or it was about art and so that we had to find we knew that we wanted to use the project from the beginning, our intent was to use the project not only as having value in and of itself as the project but also we wanted to use it as a catalyst project to revitalize the geographic area around it. And so we had to sort of craft the narrative around job creation, business starts, private investment and that type of thing and so our value came really when we were able to start to quantify all of those types of things which I'm a big fan of collecting data that already exists. So you can very easily pull number of building permits and value of building permits in a certain geographic area. You can very easily pull things like business licenses, how many business licenses were pulled and then collecting other data around that that is not quite as easy. So asking your business owners to participate and give you numbers of sales from one quarter over the next from one year over the next and that type of thing that's really where we started to get, that's when people started to wake up and say, oh, this project actually does have value because it has this reverberating effect. And the other thing that I'm sort of, that I know is happening but I haven't quantified it the same way that, you know, for example, Laura, you've started to quantify some of that and I guess it's Brian has started to quantify some of that is I know that it has really started to change the community's perception of itself. So, well, maybe in the beginning they didn't see the value around the art as the project sort of gained momentum and gained national attention and you have like an article in the New York Times or you get the art place grant and they say, oh my gosh, these big funders are giving our community money for this project. It maybe it does have value in and of itself and maybe it's not just the economic ripple effect that has the value. And so then they start saying, oh my heavens, we have this asset and we used to make fun of it but now we're really proud of it. And it started to sort of change their own perception of their community but I haven't tried to quantify that. And so I think based on this conversation that's the next thing I need to start to measure because that's really just as important or if not more important. And so I'm thank you for sharing that. I was just gonna add to what Kimberly said about using data but also using data that's already out there. So just we have many examples of we run a boat. So we know exactly how many people come, right? So we're like a museum in that and not like a park. And so everyone loves our story that we went from 8,000 people in a season to 8,000 people a day. But then we have the high line, right? So it was like, how do you compare to the high line, two million people? So we then went and studied how many hours people spend on Governor's Island. And so when I have a conversation with someone, I say, well, we have 400,000 people but they come for about three hours. And you know, when you go to the high line, the high line's fantastic, I always say that. But you go for 20 minutes.  The two million. So instead of the conversation being, well, that's like really nice, Leslie. You've gotten up to big whopping 400,000. It's, and I don't want to get into that, well, we're only open this much. But then all of a sudden the conversation changes and then when I say, well, we're a place that people love, right? How do you quantify that? Well, they're not going to a place they hate for spending three hours there. But seriously, I know that they love it, right? Because I hear them say that. But if I just said that without them saying, but I know they spend three hours, then it makes sense as opposed to my, because I think that all of us are good at telling how wonderful our projects are, right? We're passion driven. But then I really think we have to like push harder on like, Courtney, what's your story? Like, what are the numbers, right? There are numbers involved in your budget. You know what I mean? How do you show that? And then how do you use other data? Like, how many people have gone to a performance in your community versus a theater in a bigger city? Versus, you know what I mean? Like, how do you construct a story with numbers in that story? And I think that then that just gives us all a lot more credibility.  So it's telling your story, but then how did I get from point A to point B? So we try really hard. And again, we haven't figured out how to quantify love, but we're coming up with proxies. Well, I think that's a really good strategy of like a place to start when you think about evaluation.  Or these are the things I feel when I experience this project on the street. How do I measure those things? How do I find a proxy for love or for community possibility? Which are, you know, that's the thing that I talk about all the time, a sense of possibility and agency. Well, I'm sure there are smarter people than I who do know how to measure that, but I don't. So how do you pull those apart and try and find the measurable pieces of the things you already say or you already want to demonstrate rather than someone else's measurement that may or may not be relevant to you? Yeah, I just want to jump off of what you said there. I work in the theater, and the theater is again one of those, okay, you can, you know, you can see how many people showed up to the theater. You can survey them after and ask them what they thought or how they were engaged or what motivated them to buy a ticket or how they were engaged with the piece. But we're actually trying to think about now, I'm from Perseverance Theater in Alaska, and what we're trying to figure out is how, you know, basically, where does the story begin of the engagement with a piece and where does the engagement end? Like, it doesn't begin when they show up at the theater. It actually starts before that, you know, in terms of being interested in that particular story. And we do a lot of, it was funny when you were talking about narrative. We do a lot of stories about Alaska or about the people of Alaska or stories that have impact in Alaska. So those are really interesting ones to measure in terms of their impact, but I'm really curious about, and I don't know the answer to this, but it's just something I'm starting to investigate is how once they leave the theater and they have the conversation, the car on the way home, but what's the next thing? Does it impact, you know, I just directed this play by a playwright from Anchorage and, you know, she was in the quilting store one of the next days and she heard these two women talking about the performance and, you know, she felt like she had to hide behind the thing of the shelf because she didn't realize she was the playwright and they actually don't know what she looks like probably. But she was hearing that conversation and so those conversations are really difficult to measure, like in terms of what actual impact does the story or the engagement that they had with the piece, you know, besides them coming back and seeing another play, but that's not really what I mean in terms of taking the story that they listened to or experienced and how does that go forth in engaging in their lives? So it's just an interesting question. It's almost the same as love, you know, but yeah, it's just something pondering and yeah, I'm not smart enough to figure it out. So if anybody has any thoughts on what they've done, posts, you know, activity to see what the long range impact has been, that would be cool. I wanna echo in on that because I often try to track changes in attitudes and behavior and I think those are really distal outcomes. I've been going through this kind of soul searching with what does that mean? Can I really deliver on the fact that any intervention, any engagement that we are doing will lead to a change in attitude or behavior? Will we be in existence long enough to see that or see that come to fruition? So like you, I'm measuring those proximal outcomes, those things that I can measure right away that, you know, seeing people come back, repeat engagement, a follow-up phone call and an email and then trying to latch those on to some other larger community goals that some of my stakeholders are implementing. So with us having so many partnerships with city and county government and things around quality of life services, we're like our main partner is a neighborhood works community. So how can we tie into those and say that, well, maybe we were not the direct effect of that but we partner with this organization in order to get there. Because I think those distal outcomes can be very frustrating and it could be really, it can slow you down to a point where you almost don't feel like you're having any success because in our community, it's huge about if you're educating students that you're contributing to 90% graduation rate at the lowest achieving high school. And it's like, how am I gonna be able to tell you that I actually did that working with a kindergartner? I mean, it's that far away. But thinking a little bit more realistically about what are those proximal outcomes, what are those things that we know increase attendance rate, decrease attitudes of engagement coming into school when we know that you're there on a, they know you're gonna be there every Friday so that kids shows up a little bit more on Fridays. These are the things that we have started to change the way that we're looking for these outcomes and then beginning to report out. And I don't know, I mean, I wanna know what's happening 10 years down the road but I just don't know how I'm gonna get that data or where it's going to live. And I think that's something really important but we can't lose hope or faith that we won't get there. So I just wanna say that. I think that's another challenge of, probably all of our work, certainly for us, is that we're working within systems and ecosystems of a lot of people and a lot of challenges and it's really hard to draw those straight lines. Like Liz said, the sort of causality piece of like, I did this and then this happened, the end. And especially when you're working on trying to sort of change whole systems that those kind of direct, the logic model sort of way of working doesn't always follow. I've recently become really interested in where there is existing sort of bodies of knowledge and research that we might be able to hook onto either as sort of a preamble or the end piece. So just as an example, there's a local foundation in Minnesota called the Wilder Foundation and they've done this great body of research about how social connectedness and social bridging leads to physical health outcomes for neighborhoods. And so I've been talking with them and thinking about how do we make a prequel to that that demonstrates how arts and culture leads to social connectedness. And then they've already done all of the work, the long-term work about how that leads to lower rates of obesity and diabetes in a neighborhood. How do I connect, how do I just make that train link thing that hooks on to people who've already done that kind of long-term system-based research? And I imagine there are other, I'm sure there are other fields, other sectors that have those kinds of long-term, real academic scientific research. What other challenges do you guys have in your work in terms of measurement in general or the idea of narrative? Where are their pressure points? I don't know if this is particularly responsive. I'm Nancy Ebrahim from Esperanto Community Housing. The Mercado La Paloma is the site that we had for our Art Place grant. And the Mercado is a very unusual project by any understanding. But one of the most interesting and challenging interfaces has been since we started this project more than 13 years ago, is the role that we play as the developer with individual small businesses, which are for-profit entrepreneurial enterprises. And one of the things that we did from the very, very beginning of our work was to create a year-long schedule of cultural events that we stimulated just to start bringing more foot traffic into the space. And some of those choices were fairly arbitrary. Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead, has always been a high, holy day for us. But we also have, we're the only place that we know of north of Mexico, north of Oaxaca, actually, that celebrates the Noche de Ravanos, the Night of the Radishes, which is a uniquely Oaxacan celebration. And we've done different other small celebrations throughout the year. The Art Place Grant was specifically designed for us to elevate the concept of a cultural continuum, that the culture of South L.A. is no longer simply a narrative of black versus brown, as if it ever really was simply that. But it's a very, very diverse community, diversely African-American, Afro-Caribbean, diversely Latino, and diverse beyond those two particular groups. And one of the things that happened that we were extremely excited about, that is part of our post-art place and continuing measure, is the fact that those six high, holy days of the Mercado now that everybody will rally around have been owned by the vendors. So we were able to stimulate these in the creation of the Art Place Grant. We had the first ever African-American film festival in the month of January, January, February. We had a newly partnered curated show with the California African-American Museum. We had Garifuna performers, always live dance, fixed art exhibits, something that was relative to the month of, or every two months we would change this show with at least one grand performance. One of the things that happened is that our Thai business, which is a restaurant that occupies a restaurant and does a brisk business, had been on the verge of leaving the Mercado and returning to Thailand because of family issues. And because we celebrated the Thai New Year as one of our festivals, it gave them a place of ownership there that they had never really realized before. And somehow the commitment that this was a place that could in South LA, where the Thai New Year would be affirmed and celebrated and claimed and developed was something that was profoundly meaningful for that particular group. Each of the different entities has claimed a particular day that the whole Mercado will celebrate around. So the month of the Yucatan, the month of Minchua Khan, day of the dead will continue to be celebrated. The Noche Daravanos will continue to be celebrated. But now as a regular year, the Thai New Year festival will be celebrated. The newest member of our tribe is Asla Ethiopian Vegan. The first Ethiopian restaurant in South LA and brilliant, brilliant food and a very charismatic and wonderful family. And they found the Mercado through our Art Place Grant and fell in love with some of the performances that they experienced there and wanted to make it their home for their business as well. So these are more narrative measures of the success, but a lot of it has to do with how deeply invested. These business folks are having invested everything in a business, but also getting re-energized around cultural manifestations that they're playing a bigger role in. So that's a big part of it. I think in terms of the external narrative, I still rail in the press when I see us referred to as a food court because we're a very intentional community. It's not meant with malice and we do observe the hits of the press even if they're not our narrative. But it's those more meaningful claims of ownership and ownership stakes in the Mercado that make us feel as if we've really created something with many, many deep roots. So I love that and for me it provokes this question about community ownership and how we measure that, how you measure people's investment in a place and their ownership or agency in a place. Does anybody have a story for that? Yeah. So my name is Boston from Perseverance Theater in Juneau, a town of 32,000 people. You can only get there by plane or boat. And over the years, there's a story that the taxi driver was talking to some folks who had come in on the airplane and was taking them somewhere and he kept talking about our theater. Our theater just announced they're gonna be doing Hamlet next year, our theater. So the community buy-in to the ownership of what the theater does and what the theater is for the community is very large and when you get people referring to it as our theater and not something that's far away, then that's it. And you can't really measure that you hear these stories and so you know those stories and those are just great, great, great stories to know that you're having the impact that you wanna have on the community and that they are so entrenched in what you do and then you hear them vocally when they do something that you don't like. When you do something they don't like but because they have that ownership, it's great and that's really wonderful. So I love that idea too, like is there a way to measure community pushback or resistance as a measure of ownership? Like how do you take that and you're able to demonstrate some kind of ownership? Do people have other examples of that? Other? Our architecture festivals become very large and we encourage an enormous amount of community participation from just about anyone and in the beginning I was always going out and inviting and encouraging groups to participate but it took a real turn two years ago when I got a phone call from the almost proverbial group of little old ladies who make quilts and they asked if they could be part of the architecture festival. They wanted to make architecture quilts. I would have, on my own I would have never thought to invite this group to be part of the architecture festival. I wouldn't have known that they would have had an interest but because the architecture festivals become part of the community and they wanted to be part of it so they came and they produced the most amazing quilts that I have, I just couldn't believe it. It just blew me out of the water and people came from all over to see those quilts. Then we have, there are poets in town and the same year I got a phone call from a woman who said she wanted to meet with me and she was very secretive and we finally met and she said, well the poetry community would like to be part of the architecture festival and I said, well how do you envision this happening? Well, we're gonna take pictures of a half dozen buildings in town. We're gonna put them on a website and we're gonna invite poets from all over the world to write poems in response to these buildings and then we're gonna pick, we'll have a committee, we'll pick what we think of the, however you pick a best poem. I stayed out of that and then we're gonna have a poetry walk during the festival and we'll walk from one building to the next and if the poet's local, the poet will read his or her poem about that building and if it's a poet from far away, somebody else will read it and then they videotape the whole thing and I would have never imagined doing that. That came completely from the community and from these little niche groups and really those are indicators in my mind of success, whatever success might mean. You can make that into a real sort of quantifiable metric too. You can count up the number of disparate groups that are involved now that weren't involved before. You can map the sort of different sectors of the community that are engaged in the festival. I think that I'm hearing, I hear all of you talk about your projects and everyone is so passionate and it's so moving to hear everybody tell the actual narrative stories of the people in their community and their response and so I am also, I think to Leslie's earlier point, interested in how do you take that and just convert it into a number that also means something to people who are maybe more numbers driven or who need this sort of tangible thing to hang their hat on along with the really compelling story and I think it is sometimes a matter of just making a visual representation or a little graph of how many groups were involved before and how many groups are involved now and that's a really good proxy for ownership and engagement. And then we did that because there were 36 quilt artists. We do count the number of people who are involved and the number of artists who are involved. So suddenly we had 36 quilt artists and I think it was 70 or 80 poets who were involved. We should count the hours of inspiration. That's right, I wouldn't have thought of that, sure. Thank you. We have a project, I'm Danny and with Yellow Arts in Yellow County, Northern California. We have a project that is art embedded in agriculture and we do a couple of things. We do the stories which we, thanks to an art place grant, we also did video but we took it to YouTube. We didn't have to do anything special but we also then conducted screenings. We had movie nights, movies and martinis by the way. In our local theater and screened our movie and brought up the farmers that we interviewed and the artists that we interviewed and made them stars and walked them down the red carpet and they were like, they were laughing at first and they kind of got into it. It was kind of weird. And then at the end of that movie we hit the highlights of the number of artists we touch, the number of farms we touch, the number of people that came to the festival. And so we just put those numbers randomly up on the screen and we asked people to connect them. And the first time we did it everyone, we're not really sure, but we do it every year in some fashion, take those numbers and ask people to connect them and help us understand, see if they know where these numbers are going.  So it's a visual, it's like a wordle with numbers, right? And it's just making sure that my supervisors know and the people who are, and my funders know that these are the numbers that are impacting and how they're increasing. So it's kind of a strange pie chart. But by doing them in combination with the stories, with the videos and this year we had a small grant that we got from the Rotary, the local Rotary and we bought, they're not flip cameras, but they're the newest version of flip cameras and iPads and we're now sending the kids out to do the stories. So now we're doing this cross-generational youth interview of a farmer and an artist and then the kids are putting these stories together in their classroom. So it's digital art in the classroom, but it's also helping them learn more about their place and why this program is so important. So those are the ways we're trying to do it. We're trying to tweak the stories with the numbers on top of it. I think we are, I just wanna thank you all for sharing your stories and your narratives about your project. It's just for moving to be able to hear all of you talk about your work and go thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.


It's December the 2nd, it's Wednesday, it's 11 o'clock, that means only one thing. Rediscovering America. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. And not to be disappointed, once again, we have more news items than we'll have time today. But the title of the show is Trump, the Mad King's rant, FBI, DOJ, or MIA. So Donald Trump has accused the FBI and the Department of Justice that they're just not there for him to uphold his conclusions and his allegations that the election was rigged and the election was stolen from him. And the FBI and the Department of Justice, they're not playing along and he's not happy about it. In fact, he's even implied that they're part of the conspiracy. So where do you go from there? Well, let me tell you where you go from there. I'm going to read a couple of quotes that should say it all. And one is from, believe it or not, Donald Trump's buddy William Barr, William Barr of the one who he just accused of being part of the cabal to not uphold the investigation to prove that there was a fixed rigged election, that the ballots were flipped and they were rigged. So here's what William Barr says, to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election. William Barr just nailed one of the nails in the coffin to close this election allegation shut. The other quote is from the Third Circuit Court of Appeals by Judge Stefanos Bebas. It's a three-panel judge. And he said, free, fair elections are the lifeblood of democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. A con election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof we have neither here. So with that, let me go to my guests. Good morning, everybody. Today we have Jay Fidel, Cynthia Lee Sinclair, Stephanie Dalton, and Winston Welch. Here we go again, another wild week, another wild week of allegations and unproven, unfounded allegations. Jay, these two quotes, one from the Federal Court of Appeals and his buddy William Barr, does that put the nail in the coffin for Donald Trump on his pursuing these allegations either out of court or in court? With whom? You know, with us guys, it puts the nail in the coffin. And we look at the margin of the base and we say, well, it must be putting the nail in the coffin for them too. But yesterday I got an email from somebody here in Honolulu who firmly believes that Trump is still right, who believes that Democrats are Marxists, socialists, and communists, and they're wrecking the Constitution. So what you have is a problem about truth. And Tim, I sent you an article. Maybe I copied all you guys about truth, the Constitution of Truth. And we've lost it to some extent and a big challenge now to get it back. So I consider all the stuff you see on MSNBC and CNN. It's a reality show. It's a distraction. It's very dramatic, it's very interesting and very repetitive, I might add. And predictable. But the bottom line is that Trump isn't doing anything to help the country. Zero. Zero. Did I say that? Zero. And meanwhile, there's no president. There's no president and the country is falling into an abyss. While we're all distracted with the end game here for Trump's presidency. I'd like to interject an alternative thought on this. And I think he is doing something. He's doing something for himself. He has raised since Election Day $170 million. And that was supposed to be the Election Defense Fund called Steal the Vote. That was supposed to be money used to overturn all these court decisions and pay for attorneys to prove that fraud was laden in the five states. Well, in fact, if it's a donation under $5,000, gets you gets it. Donald Trump has opened up an organization called Save America. And every dollar received, if it's under $5,000, he gets 75% of it. The rest goes to pay down campaign debt. And then the Republican National Committee gets the rest of it. So last week, I suggested that this is all about campaign donations and getting money. He'll need money in the future to pay for attorneys after the Southern Manhattan District comes after him. He'll need to pay for an attorney that charges $2,000 an hour. And he'll need money for his kids just because. So I think he is doing something. He's doing something for himself. Well, I think, you know, to go to your question for a moment more, and that is what's happening here is that the fringes of the Republican Party are turning against him. They, you know, they have to admit that what he's doing is really crazy. And they see all the court decisions. They see, you know, remarks by people in government, even people who he appointed who have been his friend up to this point who are not so loyal anymore. And you can assume that there's people out there in the community. You know, the fringes of the base that are being likewise affected. And as we go forward, this is my theory I expressed before. The power will drain from him. His popularity will drain. And he said that on Inauguration Day, sorry, he can't be at the Inauguration of Joe Biden, but he is going to kick off his 2024 campaign that very day. And he's going to be campaigning for the next four years. I'm not sure he has the popularity. In fact, my theory is that he held very little popularity going forward. He's a loser and people are going to start to get that. As he loses the power of the presidency, he's going to lose at least a substantial part of his following. Watch and see. Well, to quote you from previous shows, Donald Trump to not go to the Inauguration and on that same day kick off his 2024 campaign to use your quote, that's gross. So I'll leave it at that. I stand by my quote. I know you two. Hey, Stephanie, what do you think about this? Now, do you think there's any correlation or any coincidence? I don't think I don't believe in coincidence. I believe in synchronicity. Donald Trump threw Bill Barr under the bus by suggesting that he's part of the cabal to undermine his claims of election fraud. And when Bill Barr said what he said, and I just read that quote at the beginning of the show. You think there's any correlation to Bill Barr not being happy with that and coming out with the unsealed documents that there might be a pay for play on pardons versus a camp versus a payment. We don't know who we don't know who yet. But at this point, we know that someone's going to get a pardon. And there was the discussion or the entertainment of a discussion that there might be some financial rewards if a pardon was issued. You think there's any correlation to this? There might be. Obviously, Barr is looking to his own concerns and his own fanny. Now, I mean, certainly that one siding with no foul in the election. So he may be wanting to do something different. But it's very confusing because he's really ruined his reputation and his credibility with the world. I don't know who he thinks he's going to go work for or maybe he could do something with DeGenova and Giuliani. I mean, I just don't. I want to be clear, Stephanie. He cannot be either a host or a guest on Think Tech. All right, we're not in. Okay, he's certainly not coming to my program. But I wanted to say that. Well, there goes my job. I just hope that Jay's actually very positive take on what's going to happen to Trump is going to work out. I'm most hopeful, but I'm appalled again because in D.C., the election takes place at one end of the mall, right? On the Capitol, if it's going to be looking West. And then that mall goes all the way to the Lincoln Memorial. So I have this image of Trump down at the Lincoln Memorial competing with Biden up at the Capitol with these millions of people along the mall. So hopefully we're not going to have that kind of a ranging competition. Remember, because Trump has been very concerned about attendance at his. And now he knows he's got the 70 million. So this thing is looking like a disaster. And with the pandemic, I only hope that we're going to cancel anybody going to the inauguration. It's too cold anyway.  So I'm going to just cancel that and do it online.  Because we've got a crisis. That is what I think he's trying to do. Is a physical confrontation of these two bands. Well, isn't this a page right out of the Apprentice? I mean, really? I never watched the Apprentice. I am proud to say. I watched it once. That's all I needed. I had no interest. Well, it is a page out of reality TV. And I think you're right. And it's throwing democracy under the bus. And in the meantime, Donald Trump's raising $170 million. If you really, if he's on the same pace that he is right now, in 60 days, he could have, well, another $250 million easy. So take 250 plus 170, that's a whole lot of jingle. And why not motivate to to allocate a fraud, election fraud, when you're going to get over $300 million? And a lot of that's going to go to you personally. Well, are those hardworking people donating? Is there been any report on who's giving him that money? Is that hardworking people out of his base? Or are those mega donors? I mean, none of that. Well, if it's a mega donor, then it does go to the defense fund. It does go to steal the vote campaign fund. That's a Roger Stone organized campaign fund to pay for attorneys to challenge these things. But if it's under 5,000, it goes either to the RNC, pay down campaign debt, or to Donald Trump's new Help Save America fund. So I feel bad for these people. I do too. You know, we're having hard times enough as it is. And I'm pretty certain that most of his followers aren't all that well-enriched with excess funds. And here they are, giving what little they have to Donald Trump. Exactly. It's a Trump university scheme all over again. They're better off going to McDonald's. Let's prop the economy up with that money. Don't give it to Donald. Get your burger.  OK, thank you, Stephanie. Hey, Cynthia. Donald Trump's attorney, Joe Deveneva. I want to say Joe Deveneva. Yeah, you know what he said on the Howard Carr show? I remember that Chris Krebs, the cybersecurity director for Homeland Defense, was terminated because he spoke truth to power. He spoke that there was no rigging of voting machines and there was no cyber attacks that would anyway throw the election. And he said it. And because he said it, that opposed Donald Trump's position. And he was terminated shortly thereafter. Well, Donald Trump's attorney has said on the Howard Carr show.  He ought to be drawn and quartered and taken out at dawn and shot. This is Donald Trump's attorney. And Cynthia, what he has come out to say is I'm going to say it again. There was no fixing. There was no cyber attacks. There was no flipping of voting machines that went from Trump to Biden. Dominion was not a factor here. And the results, the recount show that there was a matchup between the Dominion's voting machines and a matchup to the paper ballots. So what's Donald Trump do? He sicks his attorney on him. And Chris Krebs is in so much implied that he probably will seek a legal opinion or two and maybe go after this attorney. Your thoughts about this kind of shenanigans as Joe Biden likes to say, this malarkey. I think this goes way beyond malarkey or shenanigans. This is dangerous, illegal, threatening behavior, which is serious. And I have some quotes from Chris Krebs that I just want to read really quick, which I thought was really great. On November 17th, I was dismissed as director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, a Senate confirmed post in a tweet from the president. After my team and other election security experts rebutted claims of hacking of the 2020 election. On Monday, a lawyer for the president's campaign plainly stated that I should be executed. I am not going to be intimidated by these threats from telling the truth to the American people. I thought those were some pretty powerful words. And then we've got this other guy from Georgia today, Sterling, another election official who has come out and it was one, I get chicken skin just thinking about it even, where he came out and said, this has to stop. People are being threatened. Somebody's going to die. There's no excuse for this. And it was such a beautifully impassioned, full of rage, but controlled rage, justifiable rage. And he said that each and every American that is paying attention should feel the same kind of outrage. And I, for one, feel it. Well, he called out the president and the two senators from Georgia. He called them both out on the carpet. And the two senators, to their credit, said, you know, violence under any circumstance is not to be tolerated. That was a very short statement, of course, but nothing more than that. So all right, well, thank you for that quote, Cynthia, because that was a very poignant point on this whole thing, is that these are death threats. And they are being, I think, not only tolerated by the president of the United States, but instigated through his proxies. So it's, you know, this is, well, once again, this is deplorable. So thank you, Cynthia. Winston, going to you on the same topic, do you have any thoughts on how low we go in this 30 days that we've been in this election dispute and where Donald Trump is in Georgia and the allegations? Again, Georgia's election process is flawed and it's going to be rigged. What would motivate a Republican to want to churn out and vote? What would motivate a Republican to want to churn out and vote? I'm not sure, because the candidates that they would be voting for have been locked steps supporting Donald Trump. And throughout all of this horror of trying to dismantle our nation and its fundamental democracy, this is not a difference of opinions. This is whether the nation survives to have a nation, to have elections in the future. And for them to think they wouldn't be on the chopping block next is folly. But so I don't know. I didn't ask the question as clearly as I should have. Here's the point. If Donald Trump is undermining the credibility of the Georgia election and saying no matter what, it's fraud and it's rigged, wouldn't I just want to stay home and not waste my time and energy and not churn out the vote? It's interesting, because if you're a QAnon person, then is this part of the whole plot or not?  These Dominion machines have a paper trail from what I understand, like everybody that votes. There's this paper that comes out. They audit these things. You had the attorney general coming out. I mean, his own hints been saying these were free and fair elections. Every single state has come out with the same thing. Judges, conservative judges have thrown out everything. So I think you can go back and say maybe this is Donald Trump's way of trying to give a little bit back to America for all the destruction he's caused, because if he continues along with this vein and tells people to stay home, we might end up with a Democrat 50-50 Senate with the Republicans with Kamala Harris making the siding vote. So I don't know. Maybe it's his own way of getting back at his party. I think this is a window to Donald Trump's psychopathy. And that is if you're loyal to him, know it's a one-way street, because he's not going to be loyal in return. He's thrown very loyal Republican Trump Republicans under the bus. He's taken task to the Georgia governor, the Secretary of State, Arizona governor recently. He's thrown that person under the bus. And loyalty is only a one-way street with Donald Trump. And this is how he pays you back. He basically implies that you're part of the conspiracy as well, along with the liberal Democrats.  It's really Stalinist, isn't it, or Lenin? It goes back to the different of all the people who know where the bodies are and the place it would. Bill Barr is now suddenly part of the conspiracy along with the Department of Justice and the FBI. It's so insane. One wonders how many days he actually has left in this administration as well. But if there's a silver lining in all of this, it will be that we get 50 Democrats in the Senate. But as I stop and I think about it, and you see how he's attacking these Republicans, these people that say, I voted for him, Georgia Secretary of State says, I voted for him. And now he's throwing me under the bus, an article in USA Today. You have people that absolutely have supported him for whatever reason. And there was a great article in, I think, was the Times where the normal columnist gave it to her brother, who is a Trump look-in, and said, this is why I support Donald Trump. Did you all happen to see that? It was in Sunday's advertiser, Star Advertiser, here in Honolulu. And she's more endowed. And she gave it to her brother to write. And it's quite interesting, because they gloss over everything that we might see and say, hello, did you not see this? What they are seeing is quite different than what we imagine. So I think it's good to give it to Gander. And I don't know if he would have given her the column. But Tim, I think I don't share Jay's positivity that the noise will go down once he's out of office. It may, a little bit, but as he starts his own network or whatever it is, and he's exactly raising money for his legal defense fund, it might. But what concerns me is what's going to pop up in its place.  That's what we're going to have is a lot of really bad players coming on and learning from this. So we've got a lot of fixing to do once. The only thing missing, I think, is after Donald Trump gives a speech, the only thing missing is the person who stops clapping first is sent off and never to be seen again. That's the only thing missing that it runs from the Stalinist, Leninist days of old Russia. So, all right, well, thank you, Winston, appreciate it. Hey, Jay, got a question for you. The pardons, the pardons that have been mentioned that are proactive pardons to the kids, you know, and Jared and Rudolph Giuliani, that's highly unusual. And you don't normally see something like that. Before a pardon is granted, don't you have to specifically know what crimes have been committed before the pardon can be issued? You would think. You would think, but there is some precedent for the preemptive pardon abroad. A very interesting discussion on MSNBC on that issue last night, because arguably, you have to identify in the pardon document what you're pardoning the person for. And if you do that, you're excluding other things. So once you're forced to identify crime A and you don't mention crime B, then the logic, it seems to me this is right, is that you're exposed. The person being pardoned is then exposed to a prosecution on crime B. So the devil is in the detail. When Trump starts issuing all these pardons, we're going to see that kind of drafting problem. The other thing is in the Constitution, it says grant. And there's a whole discussion going on about whether you can grant yourself something. And in the law and the practice, for 500 years of a stare decisis, the word grant means from me to you, from one person A to person B, not from person A back to person A. Grant, by self, went out a long time ago. So there's a fair chance that some court is going to say, no, no, you can't do that. What's most remarkable, there's a lot to discuss on the issue of pardons, I grant you that. Sorry to use that term. What's most remarkable is that in the past, I don't think there's ever been a case where a president has granted a pardon, okay? And then the prosecution, wherever it is in the federal system, decides he's gonna prosecute or she is gonna prosecute the guy anyway. Then the defendant will say, wait a minute, I was pardoned, don't you understand? And the prosecution is gonna say that pardon wasn't valid. I think we're gonna see that. I think we're gonna see these pardons litigated going forward either on the basis of what the pardon covered or didn't cover or on the grant, you know, the grant-language. I see it an easier path for him to pardon proactively, pardon people, but how does Donald Trump get a pardon? Wouldn't he have to resign from office and have Mike Pence as then acting president to pardon him? How can you- Yeah, surely, people have talked about that for a while. And, you know, that would pretty much work although they'd have the drafting problem. But, you know, what he might also do is, as I said before, he would grant himself a pardon. So it's one of those two logical possibilities where Trump could get pardoned. And I suggest to you that he will do one of those two things. He will not leave office without a pardon. It's too easy for him to give. The one fly in the ointment here, and we talked about it a minute ago, is this impending scandal, this impending explosion of pay for play, of pay for pardons. You know, we all know, if anybody doesn't know it, raise your hand, that Trump has been taking money for pardons. There's some of them are so fishy.  Some of them are so fishy, you have to conclude that there was money passing hands in the way of campaign contributions. Who knows how? And unfortunately, well, the way it works is that ordinarily there's a pardons council in the White House who evaluates pardons and makes sure they're clean and they're defensible and so forth. And that's been the case for a long time, except in this presidency. He just does it off the cuff. There is no pardons council. There's no evaluation, no examination.  And I suggest that between now and inauguration day, that is going to surface. Or if not by inauguration day, then after inauguration. That reacted order by the judge that was made public yesterday, it's gonna get made public in general. And we're gonna find a lot more about pay for play. Let me ask you the question I think I asked Stephanie. And that is, do you think there was a correlation of Donald Trump implying that Bill Barr and the Department of Justice was part of this cabal to deny him this election because they won't substantiate allegations of fraud and the unsealing of these documents from the DOJ. I mean, it happened the next day. If you're asking me whether I trust Bill Barr, I do not. If you're asking me whether I think there's a connection and that there's a scheme, a nefarious connection between those two events, I do believe there's a connection. I think it's Trump moving on with his reality show. And the most important thing for him now is really not, and in order to show there was fraud because that's a loser, but to protect himself, somehow protect himself and Barr could be a key to that. I believe Barr is still loyal. Barr could be a key to protecting him on the pay to play scandal. Yeah. Well, for the Department of Justice unsealed documents, these aren't just broad things they've looked at. These are specific, I would think specific evidence, evidence in emails, evidence in all sorts of things that are not generic in nature, but specific. Well, when it's all revealed, I think we're gonna find out stuff about Trump that will enhance my theory. That is when he's involved in more scandal, more of the fringe of his base will slough off. And I think there's a lot more scandal to come. Okay, thank you, Jay. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. Stephanie, oh, I'm really sorry. This 29 minutes went really quick today. What's your prediction as far as it comes to these, this issue of pardons, that there may be a suspicion of pardon for pay? How do you think that's gonna resolve out? Well, I think people get tired of this and it's kind of like just get him out. There's Fort Knox, go take it, get out, get out so we can get on with this. I think under the egregious category to make it even sadder, it's already so egregious and explicably, but it's the saddest. Now, he's going after all the people on death row.  The next one scheduled to be executed, including one woman who all of them have the rights. They haven't gone through all of their appeals, but he's revved it up. We're gonna get all these executions done and regardless of the process, it's gonna work out. Thank you very much, Stephanie. Very hard. Cynthia, you get, not the last word, but second to last word, where do we go here in the next week with all these recent allegations, be it pay for play or the impending scandal about whether Donald Trump will pardon himself or where do you weigh in on this? Well, I'll tell you, I had a long, like four hour group conversation this morning with a lot of women that I used to work with in Alabama. Now these are successful business women, smart college degrees, white, okay? But this is the demographic that I was talking to. Good friends, people I've known for a long time. People I have respected and admired for a long time. As they're talking about, and they somehow decided to loop me into the group, they thought they could convince me, I don't know. I spent four hours trying to convince them.  And her answer to all of this is it's gonna take a revolution to set things right. And they all chimed in, yep, yes, I think you're right. All right, well, she in that group is part of the 40%, unfortunately. You could call them the proud boys, you could call them whatever you want, but that's how they seem to me. Well, in these words, they're just regular ladies, that's what I mean, but they're like two people that- Yeah, well, they don't sound regular to me and they don't sound very patriotic. So I'll leave it at that. I'm gonna go to Winston for the last word. Last thing and say I pray that these people will have their eyes opened because that's the very thing that will destroy our country is that revolution that's still out there being propagated and encouraged. Okay. Yeah, and watch out for inauguration day. Like Stephanie said, there could be violence out there. Yeah, no, that's what's very possible. It's very possible. And keep up. Just to mess things up. All right, hey, Winston, we're out of time, but I wanted to just get your opinion about the potential pay for play for pardons and get your thoughts. We're out of time, but I like to hear from you. You know what, there's a great article, short one in USA Today, what to do about the pardon Trump will grant himself. And it's written from a perspective of the guardrails of democracy project and informal think tank devoted to developing proposals to shore up democratic institutions damaged during the Trump presidency. They're proposing a new amendment that just says never in the future. So at this point, the damage is done. It's still going on. It will continue going on. We still have an epidemic after pandemic after he leaves, but right now, you do that as you can. I love the idea of bringing up these lawyers who have these asperious lawsuits and disbarring them for their behavior, for death threats, for just filing these lawsuits. And Washington Post had an article about that, about 25 former DC bar presidents calling for that. But I feel like right now we got 50 days left. But you know what Jay mentioned last week, Jay had mentioned last week that those judges would have to call all those lawsuits frivolous and they didn't do that. Well, the lawyers themselves take an oath that say you're not going to undermine democracy or did something to that effect. And they know that this is wrong. But you know what, I feel like we're at 50 days now out. And this is not 50 days until Christmas. What am I going to buy? This is 50 days of being dropped off in the middle of the Sahara Desert and telling you to walk due north. Maybe you'll get to Tunis and maybe there'll be food and water once you get there. That's kind of how I'm feeling right now. But I'm hopeful still we're in the winter so the rains may come in, it might be a little bit. Well, you know, Winston, you've taken a real sharp detour from weeks previous. I knew you'd catch up with us sooner or later. So we're out of time. Winston, I want to thank you very much for your participation. I'd like to thank Jay Fidel, Stephanie Dalton, Cynthia Leeson-Claire. Thank you for joining us for Rediscovering America. I'm Tim Appichell, your host and we'll see you next week, Wednesday at 11 o'clock. Aloha everyone.


Why is a 16-year-old being sent to pick up his siblings at 10 o'clock at night to an unfamiliar location? I want to check our people. Why is a 16-year-old black boy? Why wasn't he properly made aware of the circumstances and the world that he lives in? Why was he not properly made aware of how white people actually see him? I ground this conversation or at least my understanding of this conversation through my understanding of blackness and recently a young man was shot for being black. I'm a young man. I used to be a younger man and I want to play this video and I want to help frame this the way that I understand it.  Protests around the event included several hundred individuals demanding the homeowner be charged in silent stating ringing a doorbell is not a crime and the shooter should do time. Again, the 16-year-old has been hospitalized on social media. They posted photos of him on social media in the hospital there as he is fighting to survive. He was trying to collect his younger twin brothers from their friend's home. This took place on Thursday when he rang the doorbell of the wrong house and unknowingly went to the incorrect address. Northeast 115th Street instead of northeast 115th Terrace. The white homeowner in his 80s, according to the Kansas City Defender, officially injured Y'all. He shot Y'all once in the head as they opened the door and again in the chest when Y'all was on the ground. Y'all researched for help from three neighbors who refused to open the door until one opened the door but only helped after Y'all was told to put his hands up and lay face down. That's when he lost consciousness. The homeowner who shot Y'all, his identity was not, it's not been made public, but admitted to the shooting and was taken into custody and placed on a 24-hour investigative hold. What disappoints me is that when I listen to some of our leaders and more prominent voices in this space, they would have you believe that we live and we operate in a post-racial society. Kind of like when I talked about meritocracy a couple streams ago, that if you are a quote-unquote good black person, you have nothing to worry about in the hands of white people. What they forget to mention is for instance the guy who shot this boy, he was born in 1940, in the 1940s. So anybody in their 80s, I'm sorry not 60s, 80s, anybody in their 80s was around before the civil rights era, during the civil rights era, after the civil rights era. And just like we talk about black trauma not leaving in a couple years or in a couple decades, white supremacy does not leave overnight either. And there's no amount of being one of the good ones that helps you. I expect or I expected leaders in this very black space to be giving the lesson of yes, talk to the police with respect. Yes, talk to white people with respect.  I know for a fact, the fact that I wear glasses makes white people a bit more comfortable. The fact that I'm a bit more articulate than the average bear makes white people just a bit more comfortable. Therefore, it tells me that their baseline is a certain expectation of me. This is the kind of game that our young boys deserve. This is the type of game that our young boys should be getting, as opposed to naively sending them out into the world and thinking they can be white for all intents and purposes.  He's already in his 80s.  What I want it to mean for us, it's time that we prioritize proactivity over reactivity. It's time that we prioritize foresight over hindsight. And a lot of us, unfortunately, have become accustomed and our community has become accustomed to simply reacting to something when it happens, as opposed to putting things in place for things not to happen in the first place. My mom would always say prevention is better than cure. One of the questions I have is why is a 16-year-old being sent to pick up his siblings at 10 o'clock at night to an unfamiliar location? I want to check our people. Why is a 16-year-old black boy, why wasn't he properly made aware of the circumstances and the world that he lives in? Why was he not properly made aware of how white people actually see him? Some people would have you believe, I don't want my kids paranoid. The critical race theory people say I don't want my kids paranoid. I don't want the black kids to feel inferior. I don't want the white kids to feel guilt. But the reality of it is we must tell the truth. And the truth is white people have to be biased against us. They did a study recently and they gathered a group of some of the good white people, liberals, freedom fighters, the ones who show up with running shoes to protest.  Even the good ones, when they were shown a picture of a black male, their autonomic response was triggered. That fight or flight reflex was automatically triggered. So what does that tell me? It is a baked and implicit bias. We could talk about birth of a nation.    You see a black boy, he looks larger than he actually is. He looks older than he actually is. This is game we need to be telling our boys. This is game we need to be telling our girls. We shouldn't be waiting until the world shows us what it really is before we react.  Yes. This ain't a perfect world.  Yes, but this isn't a perfect world. So we must be telling our children. We must be telling our black boys.   I think that's the L black men have to take. I don't know the situation of his family, whether he has a father in his life or not, but I maintain the position that women's job is to teach children why to survive. Men's job is to teach children why to I mean how to survive. I'm sorry. So some of those harsh, hard truths, it needs to come from a man because in order for us to protect the provider for damn, we have to be kind of pessimistic. We have to kind of expect the worst right to prevent the worst from happening. So one of the consequences of the men being taken out of the home or the men being incentivized out of the home, our community is less proactive and it's more reactive.