Hello everybody and welcome to episode 119 of the Agile podcast. This is a summary episode of one of our prestigious pint series with the one and only global superstar and author of coaching Agile teams, Lisa Adkins. We didn't really talk much about coaching Agile teams because that's something she's pretty much left in the past and she's moving on to more leadership work these days and the focus of our conversation was largely around mental health and well-being. Very important and relevant topic given that it was mental health awareness week at the time and the fact that Well everyone's mental health has been under a little bit of strain during this pandemic. So interesting to get her take on that and Check out the full episode if you want to watch the whole hour long chat, which flew by You can go to that get that at patreon.com slash the Agile podcast, but other than that All we'd say is check out our awesome new merch Which you can find in inspectingadapt.com forward slash shop and we want to give an awesome shout-out to three of our brand new patrons So Donna Marie Lee in Japan John coming in the UK and Lisa Crispin in the US have all joined our club So cheers to all of you and cheers to all of you. Here's Lisa Headphones in hello.  Yeah, good Yeah, can you hear that? Cool caps gone flying. I'm pouring a look a glass of Alcohol-free 7-up 3-7 it's lovely and clear this Let me just taste it for you. It tastes like lemon and lime This is tastes like this. It's a good a good port mix of this one Jeff. I imagine Some people some of our listeners would know what we were referring to you there We must have told that story a long time ago, but in a nutshell Well, it was probably episode three or something. Yeah, it was very early in the day in the back in the day Well, no, we were in Porto in a lovely in the home of port I assume it's the home of port And Jeff I think it was the last evening we were a conference there Jeff in the hotel bar Jeff orders me a very expensive Glass of 40 year old port. Yeah, I was treating you. It was I took one sip of it. I thought oh, no Can't drink that so I emptied my half a can of Sprite into the Into the drink and finished it a port and lemonade which was rather nice Well, you actually explicitly asked the barman for did I yeah, oh, we didn't have it open already actually asked him That's even more embarrassing. Oh embarrassing the look on his face. I imagine was a picture. Hmm. I'm surprised They let you out of country. I know I'm not gonna let you back in again But that must have been fair in the first kind of year that we started doing the air doing the pub cast It when it was in its infancy. Hmm. Well now here we are in our own homes Yeah, I can still remember sitting out next to the river Beautiful in it. The sander man sander man. Yeah lovely wasn't it The boats going past does you seven up taste nicer in your glass? It does Let me let me just have another sip from my agile pub cut. I'll try and hold it with a brand product placement Mmm My agile pub cast glasses is getting washed as we had our lock-in last night So we did it was a late night.  Yeah, my glasses also my agile pub cast back coaster. So I've got a nice dark Amber ale from Cornwall. I think doomba is in Cornwall. Okay Cornwall or dorset. I think it's pretty sure it's corn. Yeah Cornwall the mouth of the camel estuary for you. Mmm my nickname Cheers, mate. Cheers Any good. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've Had it before when I'm especially when I go to Cornwall. It's one of the one of the classics Yeah, I've done that Tribune and things like that. But yeah, it's very nice tangy tribute. Yes. Yeah, not particularly It's not it's just an ale rather than a pale ale. So not not a huge amount of hops in there just Yeah, it's a little bit I suppose You probably call it spicy, but not particularly spicy And a very light new castle brown. Okay. You've ever had that So that diet new castle brown, I would Quite refreshing well, good news Jeff I'm opening the your birthday present to me this weekend, which is a huge five-liter keg of Dunkerton the cider which will go down very nicely And that we're hoping the weather will improve, but it's a bit overcast forecast, but um Yeah, my family come down for a family barbecue and it would have been my mum reminded me today It would have been my granddad's 100th birthday really if yeah, he died I think he was well about six or seven years ago But yet the Sunday would have been his hundred so it's even my mum was going to celebrate with a glass of cider I think as well, so we're gonna crack that open on Sunday as a special occasion. Hmm Yeah, have you sort of birthday to your granddad? Yes So this is a this is a what are we calling them summary episodes? Yeah it's kind of a a Recap a recap an overview a review of the sub of a prestigious point we have wasn't it hmm So back well But this comes out maybe maybe quite a few weeks ago I'm not sure when it will come out, but yeah a couple of few weeks ago. We got together with the one and only Lisa Atkins. Yeah Find a strange pronouncing her name Lisa I want to say Lisa but Lisa. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know many leases that are L Y double SA That's a apart from Lisa Atkins But it was great to have our ever on the on the pubcast. Hmm. We had a good chat. We did. Yeah, it's um quite a Emotional one. Yeah the right word not that we were like crying or Roller coaster of emotions or anything, but it was it was it touched on emotions quite a lot. Yeah, it's a sensitive episode Yeah, yeah All sensory. Yeah, very good. It didn't kind of Evolved as these conversations do but it did have sort of an underlying theme of Personal resilience. Yep and how She was very Very open with us in terms of how she's been dealing with the the pandemic and how Yeah Quite a lot of she was generalizing across the whole of the country wouldn't she had access to um medical friends And telling us how we weren't alone in the fact that we've we've been feeling busier, but not productive Yes I wonder if we've got a little Sound bite we can play No, it's not just you I just I really do have the less capacity and speaking of privileged Places I get to choose how much I want to work, right? so I can I can Titrate how much I take in so that I have enough to give for that And so far, you know, I'm still really functioning quite well for my clients and You know for the people I'm collaborating with But I could also feel the edge of like How much longer can this go on and and and how much more capacity reduction will I experience?  I would love to work with you. You know, I don't want to and at the same time I just want to take that risk Because I think that as you said Jeff you'd like, you know, I'm not the only one And I think this is a growing elephant in the room and I talked with my doctor. She's like you would not believe how I am prescribing anti-anxiety and anti-depressants right now Really? He said it's unbelievable So I want to just open up the conversation and start talking about What is going on for people and I've been talking with my clients about You know, so what's the capacity you're expecting? From the people in your organization You know, and how much can you scale back your ambition to meet the moment? Because the moment is not like all cylinders firing and we can just keep On this mythology of growth forever Yeah, long one. A long clip. But um, yeah, it's um It was particularly pertinent at the time. I think that we recorded this because um It was mental. Um, it was was it mental health awareness week? I think Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly in the uk. I don't know if that was a global thing or but just a uk thing, but It certainly did bring true with with with us at the time. I remember because I think I think companies have become a lot more aware and a lot more, um, conscious of People's well-being and and even within teams, you know, um checking in with people and And you know on a human level, um asking Are you okay or at least acknowledging that it's okay not to be okay? It's been rough. It has been rough for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah It's um, she used the phrase accumulation of anxieties And it is lots of little things in many ways, isn't it? It's not like I mean for some people they've had big disruptions But for for many it's lots and lots of little things that have just piled on top of one another It was a really funny I say Freudian slip. It's probably it's not technically a Freudian slip, but I don't sure what else to call it. So I'll do I'll just play it From a personal standpoint, I am certainly feeling what I what I view as the accumulated effects Of this last 12 years 12 years Feels like it doesn't it does feel like it. Oh my gosh, does it feel like it for 12 months and That slip of the tongue. Yes But that that was that's her unconscious leaking into it. We we joked before haven't we about how this this month Felt like a long week or something like that. Yeah. Yeah um It does time seems to pass a lot slower and maybe that's A lot to do with monotony. I think in terms of I still joke now that every day kind of looks the same and We're talking at the lock-in her last night when we in terms of I think the thing that I miss is the variety. It's not so much to travel It's not so much the um The work it's it's the variety. It's the difference in work. It's the difference in locations And I think time has seemed to pass a lot slower when there's less Going on But the diary is less busy yeah and yet It's quite amazing to think that This all started about 18 months ago Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? Maybe we've become conditioned to that. Maybe what you know in terms of um Yeah, it's but then if you think back six months ago, we were I was certainly complaining about how How painful it was six months ago and it was six months or eight months into a to the pandemic And my anxiety levels were probably the highest I think Work-wise well, okay, probably judging it mainly by work, but um September um There was an initial kind of um kind of Spirit wasn't there for so within our house. So yeah, we'll get through this as a family But yeah by six months through that we were I think fairly worn down Uh six eight months in we were yeah, we were fed up with it pretty much by them Yeah, and I'm to be fair. She wasn't just talking about Just the pandemic although there were There was a funny little but also a lot of truth in the humor We we talked a little bit about privilege and um sort of guilt that we feel for Being Frustrated with our situation when actually we have got a lot to be grateful for yeah Um, she used a really interesting phrase that she got from her daughter. I'll just um I'll just play that if I got it It was incredibly hard to buy a dishwasher. Yeah It was incredibly hard to get it installed. I mean it was like, oh my gosh like something that was just bing bang boom happened With no stress at all was a two month stressorama In my house, right? So so now let's be really clear When I say that sort of thing I immediately feel sort of like the guilt and shame of Oh my godly. So you're so like dishwasher really like that's so that is such a privilege Problem, right? Yeah, exactly and my daughter who's really skilled in these sorts of things would say, uh, mom Don't compare pain Right. So whatever you're experiencing. It's not comparable With the pain that someone else experiences who doesn't have running water in their house. Both are pain You know both are stressed both are anxiety and I think that so it's so here's the thing. It's never the dishwasher No, it's what's it's what's the underneath current Hmm And that I thought was a really I know it's a slightly Jokey comment, but I think there's a lot to that because we we do Tend to think our problems are more than other people's Yeah, but equally we can feel guilty for focusing on our on our own challenges and I think one thing that are really, um I think at least there is amazing at is holding herself in in a very neutral state and being able to To take judgment out of things See things as they are and give people space Yeah, and as I think there's a real, um There's a fine line isn't there between there's I think there's a it can be quite cathartic to um to Get things off your chest if you even if you can't buy a dishwasher or you can't you know I had to queue for the shop for the supermarket for for 25 minutes And I've never had to do that before or I can't get a hold of prunes in the supermarket there's a there's a sense of You can download that stuff and you can vent about that stuff, but you get yeah It's not it should never be at the um at the expense or without caring about or Or comparing your problems to someone else's you think that's bad. Look at my problems that type of thing. Yeah Yeah, I completely agree. Also, I can't think of the The tv show now, but you you want Nigel would be able to reel it off straight away. I'm sure but there was a A comedy sketch from it's the multi python, isn't it? Is it? Oh, yeah. Yeah the multi python sketch. Yeah, you think that's bad I was yeah, I was living in a puddle at the end of the road. Yeah, that type of thing. Yeah You had it you had it easy. Yeah, you've had it easy. Yeah, that's I know you were born But that that's interesting. That's a that's a really good point link actually because that sense of being listened to and we've Many years ago. We we encouraged teams even Co-located teams who've been together for a while. We encouraged them to Check in with one another because it's very easy to be physically present but not mentally present You know starting off A daily scrum for example with you know a quick check-in. You know, I had a really terrible commute to work today I'm really worried about um, you know, my daughter's got an exam today or whatever Um, and now I've got I've got that off my head out of my head off my chest and I'm here and I'm here and that I think I don't know whether we've got enough of that and by my reason for saying that I raised this with with Lisa when we were chatting it's that People have always said my coaching sessions Now and again, they would say my coaching sessions feel a bit like therapy But I think I've had more of that recently And my theory is that people generally just don't get really listened to Um, you call it listening to you know reloading Yeah, Stephen Covey would call it listening with the intent to replying Um, whereas in my coaching sessions, I will quite often just listen for a while and let them get that off their chest So that they're then in a state of resourcefulness Um, so that that's where the conversation went there and After she she made this comment about the so many people in the u.s being on anxiety medication depression medication And everyone sort of a breaking point if you like then my Linking that with with my with my is what's the difference in coaching and therapy type pondering Um, I had this hypothesis that if if more people are Broken or close to breaking point then is there actually less room for coaching now because one of the fundamental underpinning principles of coaching is that people are whole and they don't need fixing And they're resourceful and You know creative and they can solve their own problems But if more people are not whole or close to not being whole then actually Can we are we not able to coach do we need to add some kind of almost therapeutic skill set to our to our toolbox perhaps? Yeah, certainly asking different questions and and certainly, um And it's a really difficult thing and I don't know if it is confirmation bias, but it came up for me in a class the other week in an advanced class for scrum masters that Um, somebody again referred to it. This is this this feels a bit like therapy or it felt a bit They've just come out of a coach session. They felt a bit like therapy Now maybe that's because I was expecting it or anticipating it, but I think as we and I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's becoming more conscious of How people are feeling then it's more important to be able to notice when You've you've you've stepped between coaching and you've gone more you've gone you cross that line um, and whether you feel prepared to deal with it or to cope with it or to um Or to advise on it whether that might be Well, at least had an interesting take on that And you know one of the things that is a little Essentially misleading is that it looks a lot like therapy. Yeah, I mean you're sitting down talking You might be using other modalities like bringing someone through a process helping them ground in their body So all of that would feel like therapy to someone who hasn't actually had therapy before If someone has had therapy before and they know that that where the focus is is on You know sort of the past and how did I get here? What do I need to unknot from the past? Then they can see the distinction, but but looking from the outside like if you were just looking through soundproof glass Right a therapy session and a coaching session Could you tell the difference? Maybe not, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that someone needs a therapist To function in the modern world, which let's just say is more uncertain now that it ever has been and humans aren't built for uncertain And that that that comment we don't need a therapist to get that for me It's something that I'll caveat this this statement of people saying they they feel my coaching is like therapy because Generally asked so have you had therapy before and so no, it's just what I imagine therapy to be like um, and it it is a common misconception and it It's we are we we've talked to other people and this is sort of fresh in my mind from another conversation I've had recently about different interpretations of coaching so Speaking to coaches who have a different view of coaching to me You know they're much more for example technically minded and I would see what they do a lot more as mentoring rather than coaching But it's such a wide school That you get these definitions a little bit muddled up But oh, sorry Jeff just to interrupt but what so Here's a here's a hypothesis or here's a The statement of the debate, but is is there a perception? Do you think then from a human point of view and I may be putting my own spin on this my own lens on this But coaching seems the word The the verb to coach Tends to sound more positive in terms of it's trying to grow your strengths And therapy on the on the flip side to that sounds like just from Historical referencing therapy sounds like you'll fit like you say you're fixing something that's wrong about you It's a weakness. It's a vulnerability that you have Is it less is it less popular To talk about therapy than it is to talk about coaching Well, I still come across organizations where coaching is a is a loaded word because it's people have been coached out of the business Um, so they've been put on a performance improvement plan And the only way that they get coaching is if they're on if they've been shown to be a poor performer Also, you need you need to be coached if you're yes as a way of performance management And so that has a stigma associated as well in certain circumstances um But yeah, so it could be either way, but I think in general I think you're probably right um and you know Getting people Turning up to coaching sessions and they know it's a coaching session and they know what coaching is But they just need longer to get Into a state of resourcefulness. They need to get a little bit more Off their chest. There's a little bit more there at the start that just they just need to wade through or shake off. Yeah um It um I'd say it's a little bit might might be well, so I said do we need Can you see a situation where we might have you know an agile therapist in the team or something like that? And it's no no we don't we don't need that we don't need that to function in them in the modern world, but we might need To just be a little bit more aware of When people are in different states, right? So I'll just play that one. Okay Maybe not everyone needs to add this, but I think a number of us agile us need to add trauma informed to our skill set Not like not that we're going to become experts in helping people process trauma But we're going to become much more aware of noticing when trauma is present or it's getting recapitulated for someone and not pushing through in that moment And that made me think of how Um, so I'm really jealous of some of my kids education Some of the lessons genuinely to some of the lessons they've had have been brilliant just the non curricular stuff, right? So So my daughter's had lessons on self-defense She's had lessons on small talk And things like that and another thing that she she she did through school was She she had the chance to become a mental health first aider and so To be able to recognize the signs within her friends of when someone might not be okay Yeah, and it's not to turn them into a therapist or that they can you know go and work at the Samaritans or something But literally the first aid is you are the first person who who is on site and who can give some aid until the professionals can take over And having that kind of awareness and skill set That is such a young age. I think fantastic And I think we might see a lot more of that in the workplace. Hmm You ever done anything like that? I'm sorry. I think you're playing something there, but that's a long long pause um, no, I think that's that's something I think I think Again, it might be my imposter syndrome kicking in but um I think I'd suffer I'd struggle with that. I think I just it would be I don't know I don't know what to look for. I don't know what the signals are and I maybe I might make light of them and my instincts yeah, it's Humor always gets me out of a lot of sticky situations and in some respects, that's the wrong option You know when when it's but I don't think I worry I wouldn't be able to spot some of these things occasionally um But maybe yeah, maybe I'm doing myself a disservice Not quite sure. Hmm Well, I mean it's it's something that I think I'm I'm grateful that I've Picked up over the years. I just wish I'd had that Those skills earlier. Yeah Yeah, just the things that I say to my kids for example, you know Just just today my youngest was just really really upset And my instinctive response is to say don't be upset. Yeah, you're all right. Yeah. That's completely invalidating His feelings right there. No, I can do other things. I can distract him I can tell him that it will be okay or I can you know ask him What he wants or what he needs But just this just my instinctive response to come to him was to say don't be sad.  You'll be all right. It's okay Yeah Little things like that at a team level of being able to to actually hear people to listen to people And it does it does take a little bit of a toll at times and people can feel really uncomfortable Uh in those situations. I mean I'm I'm I'm so used to it now I'll have people crying in my coaching sessions regularly not because I've upset them. I hasten to add But just because they're just going getting through some of the stuff that's really been bugging them frustrating them Whether it's from other people or their own actions or what have you um and Doesn't bother me in the slightest. It doesn't I don't feel uncomfortable and I think they then feel comfortable with that And then we can we can work with it. But there is an element of an emotional toll on A coach or a friend or Anybody in a supportive environment and actually andreas Asked a question one of our patrons Andreas asked a question. You knew we were speaking to Lisa and so what do you want to ask and you want to know how What she recommended for looking after yourself after an emotional interaction And interestingly enough like any good agile coach. She didn't answer the question I love my early training with the coaches training institute on this actually because It's not the question of what do I do after it's the question of what I do before And so one of the things that I'm reminding myself a lot of these days Is the one of the foundations the cornerstones of co-active coaching, which is People are naturally creative resourceful and whole So this is back to like there's nothing to fix right even someone experiencing A moment of amygdala hijack because there's a trauma that's been recapitulated That person is still whole That person is still capable and resourceful and creative and so My job in the in the interaction with them Is to help them explore but to keep them at choice So that when I leave the interaction I feel really clean That I didn't force anything on them. I didn't try to do a sell job on something I thought they should do I didn't even vote one way or the other on the thing They decided to do that it really was something they owned so that when I leave I'm not asking the question Oh, did I harm them? I like that phrase keeping them at choice. Hmm. I've never used that phrase never really heard that phrase before but it's It's a you know a pillar of my coaching philosophy is that I don't want to choose for them. I don't want to Put any kind of implicit judgment on their options Um, and so what she's saying there, which I thought was really Really powerful is remind yourself before You're going in that no matter how emotional things get They're still capable Of dealing with that And and it's not for you to take on that emotion And solve it. It's to keep them at choice Yeah, I think you're right. I think certainly, um Being more aware so it made me think about empathy and about um Daniel Goldman stuff. Was it gone? I'm sure it was um around um different levels of empathy and I remember reading a blog appears about Going from kind of superficial kind of um empathy. I can't remember what the word for it was cognitive empathy. I think it was Right compassionate empathy all the way through to emotional empathy. That's literally where you If someone starts crying you start crying you got you basically Share that emotion. I think because especially given the current situation given everyone's emotions are that much closer to the surface and because you perhaps Feel a little bit more distant because most of this stuff is being done remote remotely we feel you know, we um I'm not going to say we feel we care more but we feel we we need perhaps need to Become the become the help be the help Um rather than trying to help people To to get through that themselves and to and to you know to deal with that themselves.  But fair play fair play to lisa. She did actually then Give an example of a technique that she uses to help um release any kind of emotional Baggage, I suppose that's left over from from an interaction and I I I did enjoy watching your face as she was explaining this technique I am realizing that I'm starting to carry a little bit of This is especially the larger client systems like the larger organizations. I'm starting to carry a little bit of their stuff Yeah, and so for that I use something called quarter release Which is this is something my energy Healer taught me which is oh so good. So in a nutshell What you're doing is you are releasing the cords or the connections That you have put into the client or the clients put into you that no longer serve Okay You're releasing anything that does not serve your highest good.  Get it back to the ground You've tried that No Have you Um, so when in in some of our classes In the old days when we used to do classes, uh, one of the exercises that we did was visualization exercises helping people visualize alternative futures so they can Basically Remove or reduce or mitigate the impact of a couple of cognitive biases that we have around temple discounting and and the ikea effect And so I get them to close their eyes and I talk them through these futures and they they tell me about it and they picture themselves in this future And one of them is naturally going to be less positive than another but either way In order to get back to a neutral state in between imagining those futures I would encourage them to open their eyes stand up and just shake Shake their body off because naturally while you are you probably don't realize it But when you when you're when you're sleeping and when you're dreaming you're you're tensing your muscles You're you're moving around sometimes you're talking your body is is is capturing Different types of energy in different places different ways and by just shaking it off you kind of back to neutral again so to a degree yes, um Although I haven't actually consciously done that exercise at the end of a coaching session Generally speaking because at the end of a coaching session I do get up and I move physically somewhere else anyway So I think I have the same kind of thing even if it's not a conscious explicit use of that that's all Yeah, and I wonder if we've talked to in previous pubcasts a while as well about You can coach on the move and you can yeah, you can do a lot of things whilst moving and that probably helps Even subconsciously knowing that you're in a different place at the end on a journey You're at the different place at the end physically than you are we were at the beginning of that conversation So yeah, just the phrase like you say shake shake it off as Taylor Swift once said very good popular culture reference Yeah, thank you very much. Um, but uh, yeah actors do it and and um Uh sports people do it Yeah before um a run an event I suppose it's it is a little bit about I suppose it's not just getting out of the zone, but it's getting into it, isn't it? It's putting yourself into it as well as being able to get out of it It's probably a similar energy. Yeah, you remove one set in what one Um amount of energy and you focus just to allow you to focus on another Yeah, you've done power posing before haven't you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a similar kind of thing Yeah, you know it's manifesting through physical posture A mental state and it's a similar kind of thing Um, she uses imagination Perhaps a little bit more than than you are or I in that situation, but it's the same kind of concept. Yeah your limbic brain. Yeah Very good. Yeah, it was um Yeah, I couldn't help but ask and I I do feel guilty about these types of things just like I did when we when we were speaking to Esther a few episodes ago about How uh, how people do tend to get a label and then she is the coaching agile teams lady, right? So that yeah that coaching agile teams book is one that almost Any Agilist that's being Involved in Agile for over a year. I reckon has had that has read that book I almost Be be guaranteed to say that so uh, but what was interesting is that um That she says is behind her so So is that behind you now would you say with the coaching skills fragile? Yeah, the the piece. Yes, it is It is I'm not doing any training in agile coaching anymore Yeah, and I don't have any desire or plans to create more curriculum or development programs or anything like that So here's the piece that's not done is that the coaching agile teams book is still going like gang busters And so I feel there's a privilege I have of honoring that work and honoring what what what it still wants to do in the world And and the piece I'm picking up from that Is creating ways for more people to experience that that content more deeply Without having to go to a course and I'm thinking about People who are in lower income situations and so there's something brewing right now Which is a coaching agile teams book club Which will be something that we that I take a group through and record it and then it can be available for a solo Journey it can be available for You know group of people moving together as a cohort and doing the exercises together and supporting one another Musical interlude that yeah um Yeah, so that that idea of where she was she was going in the future and there was It was a lot of talk about how She's thinking much much bigger picture than than agile Yes much more global issues planetary issues and she's Picking and choosing her work now that that allow her To engage with people who have a bigger impact Yeah on on the planet um and We'll uh We won't play this now because it's actually a big part of it And it's not something that we can we can summarize very very quickly, but she had this phrase conscious leaders make healthy choices That's guiding her work going forward. I really like that phrase conscious leaders make healthy choices if I was to Put that through my own lens, you know, I talk a lot about how we don't see the world as it is We see the world as we are And All things being equal people are good people are positive people want to be good They want to be positive. They want to they want to grow They would they like having positive healthy relationships and yet we don't always do the right thing. We don't always Make the right choice often because we have a lot of Unconscious biases that are that are going around with us and we have assumptions and insecurities and all these sorts of things And so what she's saying is her work now is to help The people who have the potential to make an impact on the world become more conscious So they make more healthy choices and I thought that's a really interesting place that she's going there Yeah, I mean it's interesting. She's yeah, she's leaving that coaching agile world or not not leaving behind I suppose but just her focus and I think a lot of people that the the pandemic has brought a lot of people's Ambitions into focus a lot more and yeah, and there's no surprise to hear Lisa's going down that route But it's yes in a sparring place to be absolutely and she can make if there's leaders that do benefit from her her Her work and her engaging with her then yeah, I'm absolutely confident that they're going to be better off because of it And you were so you said if and and you did sort of ask a question You are are you seeing a positive uptake in this? You know, are you seeing Leadership teams and leaders more open to some of the concepts that we've been talking about and encouraging within the agile space and then She drew an interesting amusing analogy. It's the last clip I'll play I think Yes, it's it's sort of like how yoga is sort of acceptable now. Yeah You know, it's it's not it's not weird anymore And not everyone wants to do it So it's not for everybody But it's not weird And so she's kind of saying well, yeah my my The people that I'm going to work with are kind of going to self-select themselves out. She's going to be quick. Yeah Clear about what she's doing why she's doing it how she's doing it and and working with those that are more willing And interested in in making that kind of shift. Yeah I think and I'm going to make a a rugby analogy here um But uh, I think I've been told I've been By by medical professionals for a long time as a rugby player. I need to do Um, not just rugby related drills, but I need to do core fitness stuff Which I've always said ah, wow, you know, that's all a bit weird and I probably did use those words at one point. That's you know the idea of Stretching pilates yoga that yeah, that's that's not really a rugby a rugby players thing. Is it but again even in the professional the professional areas are here as well now sports people um Generally realize that it's more your whole self and and is part of the um part of the process of being a better professional so Yeah, I think it's certainly less uh taboo. It's less weird and um Yeah, I think it's an integral part of of growth and strategy these days to take on that approach Yeah, and that first just speaking for myself here And I think you were you were kind of hinting at this. I'm jumping on your bandwagon here, I suppose But the fact that you know Lisa is Is aiming herself at that level gives me a lot more hope for the future Yeah, because we need a lot more people like her working with the leaders of our of our companies organizations industries Um, so yeah all power to she's she's been a she has been one of the big inspirations in the agile space um for many years even though she she was saying well, I haven't created I haven't created anything new for a long time but And I think she will I'm sure she will continue to be I'm not I don't think she's going to disappear from that I don't know At all but and I think she's still inspired and she's still um she is still a voice and even on those And on that call that we had with an hour just disappeared didn't it and it was um You know kind of one of those um people you I'm happy to sit and listen to Yes, so Cheers to Lisa. Cheers Lisa. Thank you for coming on If you want to hear the the full episode then that's available through our patron site patron Dot com slash the agile podcast along with all of the other prestigious pint episodes with people like Mike Cone and Sandy Mamoli and the pop and deeks and Roman Piccolo and all sorts of agile legends that we've that we've we've spoken to and we'll be speaking to Yeah, there's more to come more. There's some and more soon So until then And if you want some merch head on over To inspect and adapt comm slash the slash shop and get your own agile podcast Glasses and beer coasters and bottle openers and all sorts But then that keep on doing what you're doing and we will see you again very soon. Cheers everyone. Bye. Bye


In these videos, we don't reveal any addresses, and even though I've done a house tour of my own place, please do not show up at any private residences because it's not safe for anyone. When you're a singer as talented as Patti LaBelle, the entire world is your stage. But you always have to start out from somewhere, and for Patti, that was the city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Patti got her start in a middle-class home on Washington Avenue in the heart of the city, where she was the third of four girls born in 1944 to a trade factory worker and a homemaker who wound up getting divorced when Patti was still quite young. Patti was originally inspired to sing by her father, a part-time lounge singer who used to croon melodies around the house while he worked away in the family garage. As a child, Patti would head to her bedroom to sing classics into a broom, sometimes even serenading the family pets until her mother forced her to join the choir at their local Baptist church. It was while singing on the altar of Bula Baptist Church in West Philly that a 12-year-old Patti earned her very first standing ovation. And she probably would have been content to stay right there had the choir director not forced her into the spotlight that comes along with being the lead performer. More than just the city she was raised in, however, Philadelphia also became a musical inspiration for Patti, not to mention generations of other artists who have emerged from its streets. Including Pink, The Roots, and Eve, as well as some of Patti's closest friends like Teddy Pendergrass, Phyllis Hyman, and Billy Paul. As she performed all around the city, including the old JFK Stadium, where she out sang more than 100 other vocalists during the 1985 Live Aid We Are The World finale, Patti gradually became one of Philly's most famous voices. Someone who could outperform, not to mention out-cook, dang near everyone else. The entire time, she's remained a Philadelphia native through and through. In fact, for the first three decades of her career, Patti lived with her husband, Armstead Edwards, as well as her son, Zuri, and her late sister's two kids, Stacey and Billy, instead of a gorgeous 1920s colonial in the neighborhood of Wynwood. There aren't all that many images of this place on the internet, but lucky for us, Patti invited MTV to take a look at the inside a few years ago. Located in the township of Wynwood, Pennsylvania, a suburban community on the west end of Philadelphia, Patti LaBelle's long time home boasted three bedrooms, four bathrooms, and its very own guest house. Not to mention a fleet of classic looking automobiles that Patti kept parked right outside. Let's start in the front hall. In the area of the residence, the Patti has transformed into her very own art gallery with an endless series of prints and sculptures dominating the space. Not far from there is Patti's incredible dining room where she keeps even more conversation pieces, as well as photographs of the siblings that she's lost along the journey of her life. Through a doorway on the opposite side of that room, you can enter Patti's kitchen. It might look a little outdated now, but back then it was top of the line with built-in appliances, white cabinets, as well as tile flooring. It's also the one spot in the entire house where Patti feels the most comfortable. Walking up the central staircase with its low-hanging chandelier will take you to the top floor, where one of the first rooms you'll come across is an extended walk-in wardrobe where Patti keeps her most memorable get-ups. A few short feet from there is the main bedroom where Patti not only has her bed but also her favorite pair of shoes as well, a pair of Dolce and Gabbana pumps. Once you move past the sitting area, you move into the actual sleeping chambers with a king-size mattress and a television mounted on a small sliver of wall just above the archway. Out back behind Patti's house, you might be expecting to find a typical Hollywood setup like a giant deck built for entertaining, but Patti has never exactly been your typical entertainer.  Of course, that isn't to say Patti's without a pool. In fact, the house comes complete with a gigantic one that's inside its very own glass building, a tropical paradise that unfortunately Patti really only gets to look at and not use that often due to her inability to swim. Don't feel too bad for her though because she finds other ways to unwind such as hopping onto the back of her very own Ninja motorbike. After scooping this place up in the early 70s, Patti would remain living here till 2018, which is when she made the third and what she promises to be the final move of her life. Having spent the better part of 30 years living out of one fixed address in 2018, Patti LaBelle moved out of her longtime Woodward home and into a brand new spot that she picked up for herself along the main line in Philadelphia, which is another name for the Western suburbs that run along Lancaster Avenue. Well, the exact location of Patti's current home has been kept under wraps, but we managed to discover that it's located somewhere in the neighborhood of Gladwin. And according to an interview given from there by Patti to the New York Times, she keeps a selection of her many awards in a place of honor directly in the middle of her sitting room. This article would also point out that Patti lives alone in the house, but that her son Zuri and his wife, who is also Patti's personal makeup artist, all live nearby so that they can visit her often with her grandchildren. This home is also where Patti wrote out the pandemic. To keep herself busy, she regularly created new recipes on an almost daily basis, while also organizing her home and cleaning it endlessly. Right before the pandemic began, Patti's history with the city of Philadelphia was honored when a stretch of Broad Street was renamed Patti LaBelle Way. Patti was there in attendance to thank the gathering of fans who clogged up the nearby intersection to celebrate this achievement. In fact, she even gave them an impromptu performance of love, need, and want you. I need you. Cremony proved to be perfect for Patti's long time relationship with her home, a city she's never once considered leaving behind. When asked why she never felt the need to leave Philly throughout her many years in this planet, Patti told Philadelphia style, Philadelphia has kept me here because it's quiet for my soul. It's very grounding. It's not New York or Los Angeles, where there is so much going on. I've moved in Philly three times in my life, but I'm done with moving. Considering Patti is 78 years young today and soon to be 79, I would guess that she has indeed moved for the last time in her life. Patti was able to forge an unbreakable connection with her hometown that rivals any association between another celebrity and the place of their birth. Philadelphia is Patti LaBelle as much as Patti LaBelle is Philadelphia, and after everything that they've accomplished together, that will never change. All right, everyone, that'll bring this latest house tour to a close. Thank you so much for watching today's video. And before you click off for the day, consider answering the following question. Would you want to live the entirety of your life based out of just one city? Let me know if the bond to your own hometown is as strong as Patti's is in the comments down below. Otherwise, like, subscribe, and turn on those notifications to make sure you never miss a video. My name is Kiera, the Vampire Slayer. If you want to keep exploring the estates of another musical legend, then stay tuned, because up next, I'm showing you where Aretha Franklin calls home. Bye. We are on Aretha Franklin's property inside of her gated community in Bloomfield Hills. This home actually just went on sale. Let's take a look inside. Back in 2019, a Detroit area property went on the market that once upon a time belonged to music royalty. The estate, once listed for $800,000, then put back on the market for over $1 million, was the place where the late Queen of Soul, Aretha Franklin, once called home. Another one of her properties located on the Detroit golf course and built in 1927, sold about a year prior for $30,000 to a developer as it was in a state of disrepair. Today, we'll check out two former homes of legendary singer Aretha Franklin. We even found the listings. In these videos, we don't reveal any addresses, and even though I've done a house tour of my own place, please do not show up at any private residences, because it's not safe for anyone. Aretha Franklin was a singer, songwriter, actress, civil rights activist, and more who passed away at age 76 in 2018. She grew up singing gospel music in a Detroit church where her father was pastor and signed her first recording contract at age 18. Despite this, Aretha didn't reach her mega success until she switched to Atlantic Records in the late 60s. By the end of the 1960s, she was known as the Queen of Soul and is one of the best-selling music artists of all time, having sold over 75 million records. During Aretha's 50-plus year career, 112 of her songs made the charts and had multiple hit singles like Respect, You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman, and more. Being a legend like Aretha, of course, she's received numerous awards and honors over the years, including a Presidential Medal of Freedom and 18 Grammy Awards. Aretha's career will outlive her for decades and centuries to come, so it shouldn't be a surprise that the singer left behind a substantial estate when she passed. It's assumed she was worth anywhere between $18 to $80 million, but unfortunately, she died with Oda Will, leaving her estate in question. Hey guys, it's Kara The Vampire Slayer, and I'm bringing you another house tour here on Famous Entertainment. Be sure to hit that subscribe button to ring that bell. We post a new video daily. Today we're checking out where the late Queen of Soul calls home or two of Aretha Franklin's former properties located in Detroit. If you liked this video, we've also done house tours on other music legends like Whitney Houston and Tina Turner, which we'll link to at the end. As always, don't forget to follow me on Instagram to chat, and now let's get into this video. In 2019, one of Aretha's longtime homes came up on the market for $800,000, and then after being taken off the market, returned with a respectable price increase to $1.2 million. Located in the suburb of Bloomfield Hills, the estate was just outside of Aretha's native Detroit, Michigan, about a 30 minute drive from downtown. The mini mansion is situated in the hills of Lone Pine Gated Community, and Bloomfield Hills is quite the upscale neighborhood. Aretha's colonial style home boasted 4,148 square feet of space with five beds and seven baths throughout. The music legend bought the property in 1997, and when the home first popped up on the market, it hadn't been lived in for quite some time according to agents. When it came back up for sale at the higher price, it offered a new look, and was fixed up with a tasteful remodel. The circular driveway leads you to the home's courtyard entrance, and the lot overlooks a community pool and two beautiful ponds, which we can see in aerial views. Inside, there's an elegant two-story entry hall with marble floors and a crystal chandelier, which opens up to the two-level great room. Here, there was a grand fireplace floor with ceiling windows, a wet bar, and at the time, Aretha's red grand piano, which would later be auctioned off. While the home was upgraded and modernized, it maintained a classic feel along with much of the original features from when Aretha lived there. The Queen of Soul also loved to cook, and while the gourmet kitchen was fresh and polished with white cabinets, black granite counters, and oversized island, they were able to keep Aretha's original appliances. There is also a breakfast snook and a Sub-Zero fridge was added according to listing materials. Even the stylist who staged the home said, whoever's so lucky to get this space will be cooking in the Queen of Souls kitchen. The formal dining room had a stunning custom chandelier overhead that Aretha owned and loved, which used to be in one of her other residences and was brought here to add more of her personal style. Also on this level of the home, there was a cozy library with wood accents and the stately master retreat. Aretha's master bedroom featured the original floors and attached marble bath, as well as a private deck and two spacious walk-in closets. Another special detail is the floral shower surround in the master bath that was custom made for Aretha. It's the same shower that this Queen used to sing in. There's an upper level of the estate that has a bridge, as well as two large bedrooms also with en suites. Downstairs, there's a finished walk-out lower floor with plenty of space to entertain. This level of the home boasts a family room with fireplace, kitchenette, second master, a guest suite with attached bath and sauna, another guest room and an office. Aretha's former property backs onto the community amenities, which include a pool, a tennis courts, a clubhouse, stunning ponds and even a walking trail. The home itself has elevated decks as well to soak up the views. Now let's check out Aretha's other former home. This property was sprawling and impressive, but unfortunately it was in a state of disrepair at the time of sale, so went for the low price of 300K. It was purchased by a real estate developer, Anthony O'Callum, who decided to work on renovating the place, rented out for an event and then sell it. At least, that's what his plan was. A year later in 2019, the house popped back up on the market this time for $600,000. Dubbed the Queen of Souls, Rose Estate, was in rough shape the first time it was sold and the Tudor mansion needed new heating and electrical systems as well as roof repairs. The first buyer, Callum, said he planned extensive kitchen and master bath renovations, but it was unclear how much work had actually been carried out on the home. Built in 1927, Aretha's other former estate was located on the lavish Detroit golf club, backing up onto the seventh hole. Callum at the time of purchase said that he was an Aretha fan. When she passed, it hit him hard, especially since his late mother used to listen to the singer all the time. The house had been vacant for some time and he estimated renovations would cost around 350K. He said, While we don't know the full list of renovations that ended up being done, we can hope that they preserved some of Aretha's touches in the mansion. Her former Detroit golf club estate spent 6,200 square feet inside and was full of potential. While it was in disrepair, the home still kept many of its stately features like wooden mantels, interior French doors, leaded glass windows and a slate roof. There were five beds and six baths throughout and the home sat on just over half an acre of land. Looking at photos of the property, I honestly like the classic look throughout with the beams and the archways inside and the soaring ceilings. The centerpiece and main attraction of Aretha's former home seems to be the great room with 30 foot arched ceilings which spans 32 by 17 feet and boasts a rose colored crystal chandelier. In fact, Aretha's love for roses shows in this entire mansion from the wallpaper to the fixtures and even the carpet. We see this large imprinted carpeted rose in the great room and it's also said that Aretha lived here when she recorded the song A Rose is Still a Rose in 1998. There's an outdated kitchen but it still had plenty of space should it be upgraded. There's also a beautiful sunroom which listing materials called the celeria. This space had stone arched walls and overlooked both the terrace and the golf course outside. The first level of Aretha's home is complete with formal dining room, family room, library and breakfast nook attached to the kitchen. The central staircase leads up to a private master retreat on the north side of the mansion that features a bedroom, a sprawling master bath, dressing room and then elsewhere there's two separate bedrooms that share a bathroom. At the time this home was listed you could still see the queen of souls unique style throughout and a couple of her artifacts were presents. These include her quilted pink bed in the master bedroom and a lot of that rose wallpaper. There's even a bathroom with roses painted all over. On the south side of the mansion two more sprawling bedrooms connect with a bathroom that had multicolored tiles covering the entire space from the walls to the floor while another bathroom boasted a red tub and a fireplace. The property also had a heated three car garage. After looking at those two former estates of Aretha Franklin I know some of you might be wondering where she lived before she passed away. She actually hadn't lived in either of those mansions for a few years and was living at Riverfront Towers located in downtown Detroit at the time of her death. After checking out Aretha's two estates what did you guys think? Which did you prefer? The first Bloomfield Hills mansion or the larger but more outdated Detroit golf club property. Honestly, while the second place was much more dated and needed a ton of work I love the original design and the historic feel. I know that if that home just got some TLC it would be one amazing mansion and I for one would keep a ton of those original features. Like the amazing great room and the sun room but I would definitely can that bright rose patterned wallpaper in the hallway. Be sure to let me know what you guys thought of Aretha's beautiful Detroit mansions down in the comments. If you haven't please go subscribe to my personal channel because I would love to get to know all of you better. We'll link to my latest video. What you gonna do?  Thanks for watching. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram and I will see you all in the next video. Bye.


Well Henry Morgan, during the 17th century Henry Morgan struck terror into the hearts of the Spaniards Not a ship of Spain was safe from Morgan's buccaneers When our story opens a Spanish ship had just been taken Tragic news for Don Pietro Pizzaro, governor of Cuba because part of his personal treasure Including the fabulous and priceless Aztec necklace was amongst the cargo Pizzaro swore that Morgan would be captured and his daughter Delores swore to get the necklace back The renegade Spaniard Diaz, a member of Morgan's crew, also covered at the necklace and upon reaching Port Royal Insighted two members of the crew to murder Morgan That night in a dark alley, they sprang upon the unsuspecting man But Morgan was saved by a stranger who was unwilling to tell him anything about himself Come man, that's a surly answer to give to anyone whose life you've just saved. I have my reasons To make it a strange place friend, it's best not to ask too many questions of strangers here Many are the reasons why men are on a sarcastic island. I can think of many, but you tell me some some in here because they're sent Bonded servants, I think they're called the term slave applies better Sent here to rot in the marshes of the island or sweat their hearts out on the cane fields Others come to forget So friend, I think it's best we part.   I'll ask of you one request Let me see if I can identify my would-be assassins in the dark gladly And so that's what it is it two members of my own crew and Why should they seek to kill me? My friend the greed of man. It seems there are none about me. I can trust such as the way Could I trust you friend we have agreed to part I don't need to look far to know the reason of the this attack tonight And I know who was responsible for it, but I can't prove it I'm looking for a man. I can trust implicitly Come with me And I could talk with your friend If it's the lights are frightened of I'll be taking you to a place in which everyone present fears the light You'll be quite safe there. Where is this place her G of the dolphin tavern? No Then you're a stranger at these parts. What manner of place is it down my friend? I'll show you that I will There's but a short walking distance from here the dolphin tavern Den of iniquity in and vice rendezvous and hideout for buccaneer than pirate and all of it ruled over by kitty the buccaneer's bell Kitty whose fame had spread into every corner every layer every swamp and creek where pirates gathered from the keys of Florida To the most remote and unknown island of the Caribbean For a smile from kitty men would steal from their shipmates for a kiss. They would kill Every night from dust to dawn kitty serves the drinks and gives her feelers a light Irish brogue and her cascading laughter Sounding strange amongst the coarse oaths and harsh voices of the scum gathered from every part of the world Death place she moves amongst them skillfully alluding the attentions of an unwelcome arm Sometime seeing a familiar face which has been absent for some time Back again in part Royals, and they haven't hanged you yet from the yard arm. Oh, it is right. Glad I am to see up there And a kiss of welcome is planted on a hungry mouth Then with agility born of practice kitty is out of the house and laughingly on her way The air hangs heavy in the dolphin tavern with stale tobacco smoked smoking lamps and spilled liquor The faces are vague in the haze and half light And as kitty goes towards a room at the back of the tap room a curtain of an alcove quickly putts and her wrist is caught in the hand of steel Almost roughly.  I did I didn't see you come into the tap. No, that is true But I come here. I watch you. I see you giving Someday I come back and I strangle you. All right glad I am to see you dear. They're not lie to me I saw the way you behaved in the cabin. You do not care whether dea he come or he does not come back and tonight I come to tell you that perhaps before long I'd be able to buy your freedom You buy my freedom and since when as a member of a pirate's crew had enough money to be able to pay the Some which would buy kitty her freedom, you know for well I'm a bonded servant sent from England Practically a slave and you know the price my master bow legged jobs and would ask for my freedom I'm responsible for the great success of this tab and all that Perhaps tonight I will have the money which he wants perhaps tomorrow. I hang about your lovely white neck rubies And your ears. I place the finest pearls on your fingers the heaviest of rubies bracelets of gold around your wrists and Then you'll be my own woman.  Then you'll be mine. You can do all that for me This man tell me no no no The other men they would like to do it for you, but me dears. I am the man with brains You'll see I come I buy your freedom. I take your way and you'll be my Pearls in the ears find dresses The carriage of my own rubies and emeralds around the neck you would do this for me I will do anything to take you away from here to know that you are safe from other Oh, no, no kids for you until I see your purchase money and the jurors in your hand From your lord and doctor has come in captain Henry Morgan himself Who is it he has with him he's one I've never seen before Look at him. Oh It is so fair He is so fair his eyes must be blue and tall and broad of shoulder Who is it? I don't know. No, I've never seen him before What is he doing as captain Henry?  You'd be a strange man if you were So you're Henry more than Why did you bring me to this place? I wanted to see if you're the type of man that your voice told me you were and am I I have a shiploader cutthroat amongst them my word is law and Yet does not one of them I can trust And I two of them tried to kill me You know why how should I know for the sake of this Volvo? Are you mad man showing this priceless necklace in the play such as this? Look how those around you are gazing upon it put it away man. There's not a person here man I'm trying to take it from me Yes, they're watching it greedily Covetously but they haven't got the courage to come and take it There's only one man on this tabernous not looking at it with greed and desire And that's the man I feel I can trust who is he you That's why I brought the bubble out. I suppose you know it's worth Taken from an Aztec temple find a bit of goldsmith work. I've ever seen like this Yes, I know it's value You couldn't buy it with money then you were the man to be trusted. I care not for your past. I'm only interested in your future Would you like to fail with me young man you can't remain hidden on this island, you know my hand on it captain Morgan I'll sail under you Not often captain Morgan that you honor us with your presence at the dogs and taverns Look you I'd come more often if I could be sure of getting service from your fair Flattery of the captain Harry put your friends in newcomer. I have not seen you here before sir What baby call The unexpected sight of kitty had momentarily bereft him of his senses and as he gave his name He could have bitten out his tongue.  He let her hold him in a gaze Let himself read the invitation Mariahs. Why is sure captain Morgan your friend has got the bad manners There's a lady I'm sorry. I I didn't expect to see someone like you here. I was showing my friend this pretty bubble kitty Oh Just wonderful Can I hold it to the neck? Certainly, maybe I could fasten it run the neck or maybe your friend would do it for me Well answer man if you won't do it there's plenty here who will no kitty Holding it your neck is one thing Fastening it on. Oh, I would so like to have it. Oh, it is the loveliest thing. I've ever seen a Woman would do anything for us like that Captain Morgan may have but this necklace to be to put to other purposes Thank you for a kitty. Oh, I hate to give it back. Thank you Now mr. Hunter. I think our business here is complete Mr. Hunter and see us some other time. I don't know that depends on hunter time Good night Captain Morgan Mr..  I know it well. I do anything to have that method for my very own Do you love me? That's your mouth to wear then get that necklace for me. Let that be the proof of your love Get that necklace for me, and I'll be yours and yours only That necklace fashion centuries before by hands-long dead Changes the destinies of these people Listen for the next episode of a float with Henry Morgan


I don't think you can understand what is happening in India today until you understand what happened in Gujarat over 12 years. What was the Gujarat model? It set out to create second-class citizenship of minorities. A lot of people say, let's get on with it. Let's move on. The first thing that I have to say is that we have the right to move on only when the victims are able to move on. When people say, how do you look back at Gujarat? And I find that phrase all wrong. I do not look back at Gujarat because Gujarat is very much here with me in the present and the continuity of that cannot be denied. Half the people who were displaced by the violence could never return because they were conditionalities. You will not pursue your legal case.  Gujarat remains my reference point for a moral loom. 79,000 people from 13 districts have not returned to their homes. This riot did not return to normalcy. And the claim that there was a return to normalcy is false. It has to be challenged. There are four things that are required for healing and for what to move on. The first is acknowledgement, at least to say that this happened. The second is remorse, that we feel badly that this happened. A public statement of remorse. And Mr. Modi instead led what he called the Gaurav Yadra, three months after the massacres. What did that mean? And the kind of speeches that we are hearing now actually are ironically and eerily very similar to the speeches that were made during the Gaurav Yadra, which demonized the Muslim, equated the Muslim with Pakistan. When he was asked why are you not even setting up relief camps, he replied, I think one of the worst hate statements that I've heard from any head of government. And that was, I'm not setting up relief camps because I don't want to set up baby producing factories. The third is reparation, helping people rebuild their lives. But we saw organized barricade. And the fourth is justice, and my book extensively describes how justice was systematically subverted. It is not a justice set of sporadic attacks. The riot did end with the riot. It continued as a consumption of violence. The way this violence was replayed again and again, I think was a very important part of the continuity of the riot. I do think it is important for us to gather in places of solidarity and speak because there is a sense of despair and fear, and we also have to help each other make sense of these times.