All right, so we're going to call to order the planning commission. It is 7 0 5 Agenda considerations reserved for changes to agenda items in order We're going as prescribed All right, so the first thing we have to need is a motion to recess as a commission Okay, I'll make a motion that we recess as Planning Commission Favor okay, and now we'll convene as the CRS public information committee Right now, I think it's about 10% given the grade that we're at So we have to recertify that every year in February And part of that is telling them what we did in the year prior So do a lot of education outreach. We put ads in the newspaper We send letters to people who live in the floodplain who have structures in the floodplain We send letters to a repetitive loss property That's what we do in the planning and zoning office In the education side of things Obviously, I think the most important thing that we do within the town is all of our Planning related to stormwater. I think a lot of people here stormwater. They don't necessarily know what it does But just a reminder to anyone's listening the idea is how do you treat these waters? That come from rain events and storm events And that is managed largely through our public works department The One of the other things that we have to do every year is to reaffirm our Plan for public information So that is a document that this Commission adopted in 2021 I've read through it. I don't think I think it's a fantastic plan You do have a red line version, but it's really just to update it to today To be more current with the members that committee Sorry, if you're wondering what Zach is doing Karen Adams is going to join us if she hasn't already Karen is our technical services manager.  So here we are. That is why you are convening as that committee What I was hoping for you guys to go through tonight is to Reaffirm that plan you can take a vote on it. There's never a harm in that. I think that's a good idea and I'm also recommending that we reconvene maybe in December before the calendar year is out So we can talk a little bit more about Some of the other work we're doing with the floodplain wasn't able to necessarily bring all of that to you tonight With with the other items that are on here Some of our staff is is training up to become CFMs on their own That's a work in progress. It is It's a lot and those who manage those programs as you can guess have been fairly busy with other work since the July storm June July storm And so some of that has has been delayed a little bit, but we're gonna get Karen on here just a minute That's what happens when they let leave me in charge of zoom Or any technology is the case maybe Do you guys have any questions while we're sort of waiting for that to work out Okay, do you have some suggestions on Once you figure out what you're saying page two. All right, let's take a look after you list all the PPI members That paragraph You crossed out a lot, but it starts out by saying the first committee meeting shall address. Well, this isn't the first one So maybe just cross out first. Ah, yes And say so you've crossed all that many had say this program, but there's no sentence there So I would think you're trying to say the committee meeting shall address the PPI Adopted by the committee on June 21st, okay. Thank you for yeah catching that I think that's the only one I thought Wasn't much in here And if you'd like to have more substantive updates to this we don't have to to Make a motion on this tonight you could see it again in December. That's it's up to you What else would change nothing Unless you identify anything that you would like to have updated I think this is What we also do that I didn't share is that I believe that there is a five-year Full cycle recertification where somebody from FEMA or their designee actually comes to our office and works through a lot of this I the last one I think was in Maybe in 2020 So I think we're it will be seeing one of those In the next few years, which will probably involve a more in-depth Change Here I Do admit this is not my area of expertise at all. I'm learning as I go Maybe you can see that I Do my best every February to put together but I do flounder a bit because this is definitely not an area where I Have a lot of familiarity If we got the amount of rain that won't kill your god like I don't have a sense like in terms of risk Are we you know for what kind of storm and how is the public informed about is that in this like? Setting up plans to inform the public in the case of Yes, so this reference there's so many subcomponents and I call them subcomponents, but they're actually really large subcomponents So we also have to have an adopted emergency management plan, which we do that is Usually our emergency management director is Seth Lasker who is our deputy fire chief That is updated yearly And it has to be reviewed by FEMA as part of this Certification as well. So largely all of the outreach plan Is included in there it talks about more than just flooding it talks about other hazards and and when it gets done it also tries to sort of Assess our various risks flooding is one of the higher ones on there And this was just readopted I think Or amended maybe even only a year year and a half ago. It definitely in my time here By the select board So that document is a live document And so all of that is in there You know as I sort of briefly shared I think that we owe a lot of thanks to our stormwater utility and our public works department Because so much of what happens with flooding Is how you are treating and managing those large flows of water that are coming out of the sky Some of it is obviously what's coming out of the lake Depending on what causes the event but some of that Can't necessarily be Managed at least this you know when the lake rises, but we can mitigate it by making sure we don't have too many structures or pieces that are ripe for damage and Colchester has 20 plus 25 26 miles of shoreline something like that so naturally it's it's going to be You know something we have to to keep an eye on but We only have one repetitive loss property those are those that are damaged more than once in a storm event and we do have a Couple dozen properties that take advantage of this flood reduction We don't allow new structures in the floodplain In within our office when people come to us to permit new structures or anything Sheds play structures anything not permitted in that floodplain If you do make significant amendments, we do a lot of old properties That are in that area. We make sure that they become flood ready So there is a lot of work that is done and that's why it's really valuable to have somebody with You know sort of the CFM certification in the building and hopefully we'll be Building that up within the planning and zoning department in the next year Because again, it is not my area of expertise at all I'm probably the least knowledgeable in our department on On on that but yeah as far as those large storm goes That is largely taken care of through our emergency management director and plan Who are ready to go for that? Municipality and APN notes has any like if someone doesn't have flood insurance The FEMA doesn't cover everything. I mean, I think money's gonna stop my senses in time With all these events money's gonna start running out at the federal level and by the state level, and I'm just wondering the municipalities Are going to have to start picking up some of the costs. Have you heard anything about that? I haven't heard anything about that. I think You know particularly in Colchester, I think those properties This is not something you can say for for every community, of course But particularly in Colchester those properties within our floodplain Are fairly high-value properties. These are not necessarily Without creating stereotypes These are not necessarily properties that are financially burdened the same way that they are in a lot of other communities nationally So I think that those flood bit I've not heard that anybody is not able to pay their own premiums within Colchester at least I don't think there are any cost burdened households Within the floodplain in Colchester Thank you Don't So what do you think? Yeah, I If we can't do the zoom we can always table. Yeah, that's okay, and I think Karen was just gonna give you guys an update We can do that another meeting.  Yeah, quickly But she didn't want to be here with us tonight, and I'm sure she can Share any thoughts with you later. All right, no worries. So why don't we table that? Do you want to take a vote on the Do you want to take on the program? Tonight I say it's up to you, but I'm actually a member of that committee. You are Yeah, you want to wait and see Karen was going to report to us. Yes Not necessarily on the plan It would be separate from the plan just to share some of updates on all the good work that That they're doing within the stormwater utility so related but not necessarily Directly connected to the PPI So you could do that we could do that separately if we want or we could table it. Do you have any Objections As edited or as as amended as amended. Yeah, okay with that Okay, well then I make a motion that we approve the PPI program With the amendments as noted Second. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, no All right. All in favor. All right. There you go So we want to set the next meeting date and that's strictly gonna be yeah, are you okay with us coming back in December? Just talk a little bit more.  Yeah, I'm good. It sounds good So it's like the first Tuesday. Yes December I think I put it in my memo Maybe I deleted it first Tuesday. I believe December 5th Okay, so we'll close the committee. I don't believe we need a motion as a committee. No that commission So I think we're good, but we do need a motion to reconvene as a planning commission Okay, then I'll make a motion that we Reconvene as a planning commission second. Yeah, one favor. Hi Huff and running Okay Comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda But with that yes set Correct request for supplemental amendments to Colchester development regulations All right, we'll start with our quest SR 2302 of Ryan neck to allow the use of a 2.172 large equipment sales with associated repair as a conditional use in the Gd2 zoning district. So if it's okay with you, I will lead this. Yep. That okay. Absolutely. So Just as a reminder the commission adopted a policy about two years ago to Hear requests for zoning amendments twice a year roughly on a six-month separation Spring and fall has how it's been worked out. So we're about ripe to hear new Requests so this request that's in front of you. We have one request in front of you this request is to you know sort of seek some clarity and Perhaps allow as a conditional use A sale of an item that is already allowed as a rental It's it's not entirely clear to me what the history of this is here. It's possible like many things in a regulation You try to keep them in line if you update one you update the related things it's possible that at some point either One was removed either the sale or the rental was removed and the other was not or one was added in the related one was not There's there's not a lot of difference I think In a rental in a sale for this type of equipment a lot of the same traffic perhaps even less for sales than rentals Because rentals a higher turnover whereas sales were finite especially of large equipment where they're talking you're talking about high costs So I'm not Knowledgeable enough to say that this was an oversight in any way, but it does seem a little odd I was a little I was a little surprised when I saw that one the rental was allowed In this district as a conditional use But not as a not for sale So we're bringing that to you to talk about the gd2 as you know from last week's or last month's discussion It's largely the area around the fort But it also extends that whole corridor. It is St. Mike's it is the neighborhoods just to the Across from St. Mike's it is the Fannie Ellen campus All the way up through the fort And everything in between It does include the fort all of the fort that is in Colchester It's all the same zoning district As I shared with you in here Equipment rental is not divided between large and small it is just equipment rental Whereas equipment sales does is distinguished as large and small within our table of uses In this particular district that rental Nondistinguished between large and small is permitted as a conditional use Which means it has to have conditional use criteria Which means a review by the DRB in every case To evaluate whether it's appropriate given, you know, the plant character of the neighborhood effect on municipal services, etc So the request is Not to have this allowed as an outright use but to also have it as a conditional use which would mean review by our DRB under those criteria Staff hasn't identified any concern about it as a as a request As I share later in the memo We try to take a very consistent approach to these requests one And the big one is do you have time to even think about this? I try to be very Protective of your time. I think that this is not a time-consuming Discussion or a time-consuming. It's definitely not a time-consuming action Should you wish to approve it or not? It's a change on a table The timing Would work out well with what we are doing now a supplement 46 I would never recommend that you open up a whole new public hearing just to make one change to a table But you already have a supplement ongoing your table is already proposed to be amended for other things So I think in that respect. There's there's no adverse impacts here Relationship to the town plan the town plan in this area is Rightfully somewhat vague just because there's so much going on. It's it's it's a it's an interesting Area because there's it's very diverse, but it's a single zoning district So the town plan doesn't necessarily give it on a direction It says no new rezoning our interpretation of zoning is to change a zoning You know to change something from one zone to another So I don't think that this is necessarily in conflict Because we're not talking about you know a Large change this is To me almost sort of clarifying something that seems a little unclear now So I haven't necessarily highlighted anything here that I think is problematic with the request unless You could view this as a change in the zoning That's open to interpretation I suppose But I think everything else is in aligned With the standards that you've set for yourself for review of requests I have no problems with it myself. I think the rental business out there is fine I definitely think equipment sales goes with the rental business, so It's definitely feels like an oversight couple questions And you do have just just to be clear so mr. Nick is here if you have any questions directly of him So we do have a definition I'm glad you asked I should probably should have put that in In here, I'll just read it to you. I think it'll be a little quicker than pulling it up It's conditional use in gd4c gd4c Commercial overlay district near exit 16. Sorry 17 Okay, so like Brentwood Drive Near the exit 16 interchange area Sorry, I keep saying 16. I mean 17 is where the mobile station is correct Yes, I think the overlay is a little further up though, right? Towards Where the There's a case dealership right up off by the interstate probably covers them Yeah, I think the overlay includes the area where The larger scale Manufacturing is like the The chocolate factory up there and some other things. I think that's the overlay Well, let's see Equipment large Instruction equipment cranes bucket loaders bulldozers agricultural equipment recreational vehicles and Other equipment intended to be operated under its own power Large equipment excludes automobiles and marine vehicles Equipment small lawn mowers utility trailers hand tools all-terrain vehicles golf cart snowmobiles Lawn maintenance machines snow maintenance machines Audiovisual equipment and other similar equipment small equipment excludes automobiles and marine vehicles So about the size of an ATV is where they draw the line Those those definitions are general Really general. Yeah, I mean we don't have to be specific like they have cranes and right now the big thing is the lifts Everybody rents lifts. Oh Yeah, it's in the same category Yeah There's probably a fair amount of things that's sort of yeah are on the line You know like those those lifts like I don't know if those are smaller medium or large. We don't have a medium. Yeah, okay But I just have a question for the pair. Is that a new Function that they're adding No, so that is let me pull up the I didn't know if that would increase traffic So the repair is already connected. Sorry getting old Highlighted it for you here So associated repair was always listed there. So that's that's in our chart currently I don't know how long it's been there. It's been there at least as long as I've been working here in Colchester So again You'll see with sales We differentiate Whereas with rental it simply says equipment I can make that bigger hold on so equipment under rental Does not have a large and a small It is conditional there in that gd2 Whereas sales I've highlighted it here Conditional for small I did a quick look back through old versions As far back as I was willing to look I haven't seen a change in this table Seems like it's just been around for a while. I didn't look through every supplement all the way back, but I Don't think it was a recent amendment to remove or add Anything in this column That's kind of hoping if Rich knew anything about it he'd share I don't don't okay, so not in your time The only thing I can think of is I know in the fort. There's this small, you know lawnmower Snow-blowing machine small engine repair shop there. That's the only thing I can think of Yeah, I made it conditional for that area. Oh, that's possible. Yeah And there's no large equipment in there There is Currently, yeah Contractors in there, but that's not really large equipment sells So I don't know if there was ever a discussion to explicitly allow One or disallow another but I couldn't find it if there was There's a better proposal for that kind of business in there Maybe we've got change over Now we have some open lots that are making this accessible Yeah, and it may maybe a different discussion if this was something that wasn't already allowed as a rental But I'm not really able to identify much of a distinction between a rental and a sale other than again I think rentals will come with higher traffic Just because it's higher turnover people borrowing and bringing back Debbie has the infrastructure to handle it right off 15 No problem And it is conditional use which does allow a board to place reasonable restrictions. So Where it may be appropriate within the Fort area, maybe it's not appropriate on a residential lot Residentially used lot directly across in the in one of the small neighborhoods Directly across from st. Michaels College So that would be something that the board would be able to weigh in on on a case-by-case basis I usually rant about conditional use, but I think in this case So you think what a motion Yeah, it sounds like we're I'll make a motion and we can discuss I guess yeah, I Make a motion that we admit the Large equipment cells and repair to be conditional and The GD To Can ask a clarifying question. Would you like to include that as part of supplements seven? 76 46 and include it in the next supplement 46 Second second discussion Very good, thank you guys. All right Now get on with our proposed grant applications So I'll give you a quick overall summary here So we last talked we brought several ideas to you some we were you know fairly excited about and We have since that meeting met with our public works department as you may or may not know The public works department is stretched then like many of us and They they've asked us to just be aware of their own workload And knowing that some of the work that we've proposed while exciting They'd want to make sure they're not feeling Either left out or the need to participate at the cost of some other projects that they're working on And so we want to respect that And not dive too deep immediately into some road related work roadway related work You know while also acknowledging that at some point it's it's we're going to be ripe for a discussion But maybe maybe not this year So we've sort of amended our recommendation for the municipal planning grant or MPG grant to focus again on Form-based codes because you have identified that as such a big priority But make you know the roadway part of it sort of a sub one of Maybe ten issues we look at as part of the overall picture Maybe some small amendments that don't require a great deal of time or large edits to roadway standards But that you know respect Potentially any issues that become identified You know, I think what's important to understand when we talk about funding these studies is We're not going into them with the answer. That's why we're doing them. We're going into them to to get help Identifying where the issues are and seeking options for answers And and proposals from some qualified Consultants So I think of all of the things we talked about This is one that is best poised for funding. I know we talked a lot about some of the conservation So division work and I was really excited about that too and some of the open space planning I don't think it scores very high with this particular grant though It may still very well be a project worth doing And Maybe even soliciting some professional help for But I think for this particular grant, it's not one would that would score high Focus is on housing for this particular grant focus is on designated centers including Our form-based code is in our growth center. It includes our new town center And so I think that automatically Scores it a bit higher when we're seeking that funding a 10% match for this type of grant is wonderful You know, if we get secure funding for $25,000 that requires almost nothing From our planning and zoning or town of Colchester budget So I Think Talking backwards. I am so sorry guys. Are you talking about the bylaw? I'm talking about the bylaw one I'm not going in order. I'm sorry I'm mostly talking about the bylaw one to start with So I would propose that there And as you may know that funding gets reimbursed if we're able to adopt changes The bylaw one is tied. It's it's reviewed by the same body that reviews the municipal planning grant It's just a separate bit of funding that I think has only been available for maybe the last half dozen years or so less than that we've been I Remember was new when I was in planning starting planning. So I think that's probably three or so years Yeah, I think there was a recognition of of a need for additional funding in this This fills that so that's the bylaw part. I'm sorry. I'm working backwards I Can skip back if you want to the municipal planning grant you must stay on this one. Okay So that's all I have to say on that one. Do you guys want to talk about that one? I still think it's also poised well for For funding Based on something that we could actually adopt Think we're gonna find that this and the other one that I'm proposing are gonna work You've got your Venn diagram. I think the overlap is is large You know Whereas the bylaw or the the municipal planning grant proposal that I've Put in front of you is is focused very much on Affordability this one will include more than just affordability, but it might you know again The state is looking for towns and their funding Studies for towns that are making a commitment to work towards Affordability And naturally some of the work that comes out of a form-based code Is going to lend itself to that? Building heights will serve multiple purposes including affordability and I use affordability with a lowercase a here not necessarily the the the capital a that is You know subsidized By other partners But more market rate affordability Anytime you have increased units generally the prices are go down You're not seeing the same rents or more or sale prices obviously in Our growth center as you are In other new developments in town largely because of size and density You know, I don't have data that says what the average sale price is on a condo in Severance Green It is obviously lower than a sale price on a duplex unit That's being sold in you know River's Edge just purely based on probably size and Location I don't know if that answered your question, Rebecca No, it's it's kind of what caught my eye in the write-up for the the by-law Modernization grant was that you know, you're looking at the form-based codes and one of the things that are the current building heights adequate To you know to use the best utilized Station of this at the I guess the district here What can be done to increase housing also increasing Proximate services restaurants shops and employment opportunities So as you said, it's kind of an overlap.  So that's a criticism that I've heard Or are they just sort of buildings that are sort of plopped down Are we providing adequate like Public spaces I'll call them open spaces, but I want to make sure when I use open space You know, I'm not trying to think of like it's a 10 acre forest, you know, what's going on for shared usable green space Are are the Roadways and other amenities Happening the other thing that I hear frequently is where's the commercial, you know, what's going on? Where are the restaurants? Where are the office spaces? Where are the? What's happening and why aren't we seeing more of that? I Don't know, you know, obviously you can you can talk about the relationship with the code You can also talk about just general market forces But can somebody give us some ideas on how to improve that? Maybe it can't be I don't know again I'm not going into this knowing the answers, but Are there things we can be doing do we not have enough? Requirement for that Again, I don't know the code could be perfect in that aspect. I I'm not saying it's not But it is it is a question that's being asked, you know What can we do to promote more of that mixing of uses? Are there incentives that can be offered? I don't know But that is that is something I think people are looking for that they haven't necessarily seen or they want to see more of Are we you know again these design standards? I think I've already heard from you know We've talked about this when we talked about some of the That visual preference survey like okay, are we hitting the mark? Oh Maybe on some maybe not so much on others So where's the mark what what precisely is missing so somebody to help us walk through that because I think the The idea is not to necessarily be aesthetic snobs It's to make sure that buildings are created that that are really timeless So that if you come back through here if 20 years 50 years a hundred years from now You're like all right. That was that's what we did back in 2020. Okay. It's old. It's that 80s strip mall Right. It's we want something. That's much more timeless That'll be a place, you know for Multiple generations to come are we doing it? Maybe we are maybe we're not So to help I think those are the questions. I'm trying to answer and that I would Put in front of a consultant to help us answer So, you know, that's where that's where I'm going and I and I I want to keep that going back to the affordability part When I talk about timeless buildings or aesthetics, you know, we want to make sure that that is Not being done in a way that increases the costs to a point that either people can afford to live there or developers can afford to build them so where's the Where's where's the place where we can do things that are low-cost high quality low-cost high return Or lower cost high return So I think those that's just what I'm hearing from folks and on What we're seeing I know it seems like there's two and a half quadrants built out I disagree with anyone who says that because I think that you see one largely built out with a few buildings still to come You see another that's been permitted, but we still permit each building as it comes in So any changes to design standards would still apply Building by building you have another quadrant the northeast northeast quadrant That is mostly through its permitting process from an overall perspective So maybe there's not time to change roadways or streetscapes, but there may still be time to Again, I'm not trying to say it's needed, but but should there be a desire we still have plenty of time I think to To make any amendments on a lot-by-lot basis Should we want to so and then there's a whole northwest quadrant? That's the one where the chiropractors behind the chiropractors office It could be six months from now. It could be 16 years from now That we see anything that happens there. We you never know in this business But I think you know, it's best to be prepared for the day that it does So that's that's sort of where I'm not trying to reinvent every bit of the form-based code But I think that these are the questions I've identified so far, but of course We can fine tune that as we go To identify what those and I hope any qualified consultant that's the first thing they do is ask you guys What do you want to see and and we take those and either amend them or? refine them or add to them So we know what questions we're answering So when we were developing the last-town plan there was an economic development report And then there was another supplemental report and each of those reports talk about what Colchester needed to do to attract commercial development And It wasn't even called Chester. It was Chittin County You know what because it sounded like Chittin County was going to be trying to get Everybody was going to try to get certain commercial to move, you know what to develop And I'm just wondering like I'm seeing it in Willis then I'm seeing it in South Burlington I'm seeing it in Essex, and I'm not saying I want Colchester to look like that But I am curious. I mean I think from the you know from the tables that we get from you You know, there's not been any commercial development for two years. Is that I mean so that that's a concern because what they said in the report was it will Increase the burden on taxpayers, you know, if you're not if you're not increasing commercial space and bringing also residents in so Would that be something that the consultant could Look at now in a different time frame. Yeah, I think that it's obviously going to be part of it I don't I don't know that it's a You have different people with different areas of expertise, right? And so It's one component of many so you're not necessarily getting a dedicated economic development study but But but somebody Who is well positioned to do this sort of work knows who to talk to knows to look at those studies and see what's come out of it What have we done with the suggestions? What applies and you know, I think that was a town-wide study maybe You know and obviously we have other Commercial I want to call them a growth center because that actually means something but we have other commercial cores in the town outside of our growth center You know Water Tower Hill. I think has been very successful. I think there's still some improvements That we as a town could make to make that even more successful But you know obviously that type of study is going to look at at everything and not just here it's a different type of commercial use that locates in A dense area like this then would then would locate Say out about Water Tower Hill for example or even on lower Hercules lower Mountain View They're different types But what's happening? Why are we not attracting the small the small ones that would? Be best fit In here, I don't know the answer, but that's a question that we want to answer Yeah It's Yeah, and it's been publicly shared with us that one of the first Buildings that's potentially looking at the Northeast quadrant is a small grocery store Which is very exciting. I think grocery stores are largely fantastic for your tax base They're fantastic for your residents. They provide that service Not just for the people who can walk to it, but for the people who can Pass by without making a separate trip because they're going home or going to work And not have to make that extra trip that extra, you know time in the car that extra congestion on the roadways for a trip they wouldn't make otherwise So I think we're excited about that hopefully that comes to fruition so When we hear that we get excited because we all need housing we know that But the people who live here also need to work And so you have to keep a good balance And the people who want to work here Everything we're hearing is that they're not finding the housing so they have to go hand-in-hand That's what we're hearing anyway, so Again, I don't pretend to be the expert I do think that this one has a has a pretty high probability of funding just Knowing just knowing the identified priorities for the state right now Housing grow centers We have to remember that one big purpose of the growth center was to take pressure off of the outlying areas as well And so that creates a lot of buy-in from a lot of different agencies across the state not just those folks and downtown development and lastly, I say this a lot, but The the thing we the reason we call ourselves planners is because we want to make sure that even if something is not ready We're not doing anything that precludes it from happening when it is ready I'd rather have a vacant lot in the growth center than to build something That falls really short That takes that opportunity away When it is ready, you know if people aren't quite ready for example for a five-story building, that's okay But you don't want to put that single-story building up and then you never get to put the other one up Because it's now been taken up by and that opportunity cost so To me it's as much about making sure that when it is ready We haven't precluded it with I Don't call it bad design. That's not the right word, but yeah So we just want to be smart. Yeah That's my thought Obviously I don't have a full application in front of you yet because it's just been Been nuts to get to this point, but That full application will be prepared for the select board to look at As long as you're generally in line with It won't say anything new that that's not said here. It was probably contain a few more details Can I put a plug in for the better connections grant? I know it might come later But I first I love, you know, the whole brand Engaging the community and You know hearing from them and I also think with the town plane I know it's a ways away, but I think this would be really informed be helpful to inform The direction Yeah, I didn't specifically talk the better connections grant program is very interesting. It's got a lot of funding But it's more specific. I think into what it will fund I'll be following I think up with our Some other departments on this one because it tends to be focused a little bit more on the transportation side But in a soft planary kind of way and less than a How are we counting cars and making sure the lane is wide enough kind of way? So I haven't put a lot of brainpower into this one yet, but I'm not losing sight of it One thing that you know, I probably should have led with is just to say that all of our departments In town are stretched very thin where we have a lean crew doing a lot of work And so it was important to us as we considered these to make sure that We're not taking on anything Additional that we wouldn't already Be working towards it that you've not already identified his work that you would like to be done anyway And so that's why these I think Fall nicely because it's something we're going to be talking about regardless Just might be that you get somebody a little bit more knowledgeable or with a little bit more time on their hands than just me Who can help us? Just me and Zach And so that's important as well The better connections yeah, yeah, so that's why I'm I'm doing a one day at a time sort of thing on this one. We'll come back next month to talk about that one Would you like me to go back up to the Other one here this municipal planning grant that I skipped over sure.  We're not doing otherwise We haven't really talked about an affordability plan. I recognize that at least specifically But as I share here, it's an element that's going to be required as part of your next town plan in 2027 to a lot of people sounds far away to me. It sounds like it's tomorrow Because there is a lot of work and some of you were involved in that when you do a town plan I'd says 2027 but realistically it's 2026 to finish because a February adoption day is it Might as well be the year prior And and you guys know even a 2026 is like six months of that is just editing your final stuff Which means you have to have everything final by early 2026 And there's so many components that go into it and to be able to give them the time they deserve Rather than try to get everything in In just a few months. I think we'll we'll feel really happy about and I think that attacking this affordability plan Will make us feel really good as an element that we can have done We've always had to Have some sort of housing Component within our town plan, but it was amended as part of this s 100 that we've been talking about To provide even To require even more detail on you know, how are you providing that housing? You can't just I mean I gotta tell you I've seen a lot of plans a lot of towns. We'll just write We commit to providing affordable housing and we might have a few more lines and it's a paragraph and everybody has the same paragraph And it all says we're gonna do it. Well, none of us say how we're gonna do it And I think somebody somebody's called out us planners on this and said not good enough anymore You can't just say you're gonna do it. You got to tell us how I Think it's ripe with all the discussions. I think very specifically addressing affordability is gonna ring Lots of points in front of the people who are reviewing this And everybody's talking about it. I mean never have I heard you know in my in my years as a planner have I heard it be as Focused as it is now Given, you know, just the low supply and the high costs and the interest rates. It's just Yeah, and I think that subset of The population that is looking for housing that can't reach it is much higher than it used to be Most people could access housing for a very long time and now there are double income Families that can't buy a house and so That wasn't always the case so I think the idea here is to to work through that How are what are we gonna put in our plan take a good look at it I think it's There are other things we had to put in our plan, but this one was Get us the I think that the the assistance in ways that other ones won't I hope it doesn't feel too far in left field because I know it's not something we have talked about as you have talked about as a Commission a lot, but I think that it's the timing is is right Do you want us to do an actual motion? Yes, please we can do that. Okay. Here we go. I'll make a motion that we as the Planning Commission recommend that the select board support the application of the municipal planning grant program and the bylaw Modernization Second Well in favor. Hi Thank you guys. Oh, yeah, absolutely It's all good stuff right there Yeah Hey Potential items for inclusion in supplement 46 of the cultures to development record regulations Continued Okay, so Um Did we actually put these so We are more organized than ever and so you're like you're probably looking at two documents And you're like what kind of they say the same thing in different orders because we're so organized So your first memo here Goes through the updates in more of a in the order that they appear in the regulations The and so that's within the memo and as you can see What I did here was put things in orange that are new since the last time we talked about it so we don't lose sight of those The second part here that was attached The amendments indexed. This is sort of what will form the basis of a public hearing and how we would Start to advertise it in the paper so these are by Topic and not just the order that they appear because some of them will appear in multiple sections I Want to play the Wizard of Oz and say pay no attention to the letter. I didn't get to Z It's all relative right I know it's growing But as I as I share in other supplements, it's it's gonna get to oh It's gonna get to oh, oh, it's gonna get to oh, yeah, you eat. That's your So we will add oh at some point for the equipment the sales But some of these are really small and some of them are not very small and some of them were forced upon you by some legislation so They're not on my fault But as I go through regs and as our staff goes through regs and as our DRB goes through regs It's just it's it's a normal thing in the process to find things that could be improved Or maybe that we're not clear or that just times have changed and the text dates back 70 years And it's just not appropriate anymore So that's why it looks long I Promise we'll get through it Let's go back up to the memo so we can see those things that are new we'll guide you through So everything here feel free if I'm actually gonna pause here if there's anything that's not new that you want to talk about Holler at me It's exactly the problem so Yes, and that's exactly the problem so we have a unit of lighting a measurement of lighting that are called knits And you know every now and then I see terms that I'm like, well, maybe I just don't know a lot about nighting But we are finding that even those who know a lot about signs and lighting don't know what knits are It is a measurement of lighting different than a lumen Or foot candle That even people in the business don't know so we've tried to remove those references Because it's hard to have somebody comply with something they don't even understand And it's been really frustrating for our staff and for some of our applicants And we say proof to us that you're under 5,000 knits in the opaque lighting within your sign And they're like what? And we're like well you have to prove it to us, and they're like we can't we don't even know what it is And we say well just say that you did it Just prove it to us So I think we can just take that it's a part of it is to just take that argument off the table I've looked at two or three other codes. Nobody else is using knits I don't think we're missing out if we remove them was it in there to kind of limit how much light you can Yeah, but it's not like it's not Direct lighting. I I think knits that can weigh in at any point if you find yourself a knit expert Actually, I did have a conversation on the phone with an applicant Where we both agreed that we really were not prepared to address that So we're they didn't go with an internally illuminated sign at that point, but it shows up when we talk about internal illumination and Especially like if you have a sign we have cut out letters right within a sign and theoretically and I think according to our regs So if you have Joe's snack bar, not a good example. It's a real thing Only the Joe's and the snack bar supposed to show up and not the rest of the square, right? But there's still some ambient lighting that comes in and the rest of the square Because it's not Fully covered so we acknowledge that there's some ambient lighting that's coming out of someplace other than the letters But it's limited you can only have so many knits coming out through So we basically just changed it to say like limit your lighting coming out through like you can't light the whole box Still true you have a box if you have a box sign That's like this and it's got letters that say Sarita snack bar Only those letters are lighting up not all of the rest of it Knits or not. We're gonna use a common-sense approach. I Think our lawyers will support us That was the knits Okay, so if that's okay, I'm gonna move down to changes Okay, so we talked about this one at length Your 120 has now been moved up to 300 inclusive of paved and gravel paths a Note's been added to reflect that the lock coverage maximum still apply. I think that was a note from Rebecca So I can bump on over to that. That's 209 a Get in there 209 a Exemptions So here you go that F hardscape surfaces at grade Such as patios and walkways made of gravel concrete or stone materials Under 300 square feet in size taking cumulative if there are more than one on a given lot Here is your coverage Here at that's up here under eight Which applies to all of the following exemptions Again making sure shoreline and floodplain. You're not exempted there. He's still All of that stuff still applies you can't go build a patio on top of the lake This is nuisance last time lock coverage maximum percent to still apply and coverage Calculations must include the exempted structures. I was wondering if Did you want me to go back to the language? I'm wondering if you said gravel concrete or stone That could be other materials that are acceptable are we Let's take a look or some more materials like yeah, and some people may put Brick pavers down Yeah, I know Should pay attention to the page number I Do say hardscape materials Do you think hardscape materials covers it? What would say it does say hardscape? Let's see. Let me find it again Hardscape surfaces at grade Okay, so you suggest or other Similar Or similar to products Any other thoughts on that one We'll get to the TV All you have to do is throw something at me. All right. Oh well Zach is doing that. Let me get you Up back to our list. I'm sorry. I don't have multiple screens. I'd bounce back and forth a lot easier if I did Okay, that's exemptions. Oh, can I get into the thing here? Again, oh, I gotta show you guys something. I didn't put it in your packet. I forgot. I had it done though Oh, you say this thing is attached Did I say it was attached? I kept looking for I couldn't find it the diagram. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, he says I see attached diagram And I didn't put it in I'm I am sorry My sister was coming to town. I was trying to get out and see her but let's see Here it is So this first one is just kind of for reference. I'm not proposing we put it anywhere near the regulations Just to summarize the conversations that we've had in Succinct print. I'll make that bigger for you guys trying to see too big We contemplated another visual exercise where we drew a fence on the wall and had six foot Zach stand next to it We decided not to put tape on on our pretty painted walls, okay So I think that this diagram summarizes what we talked about four feet or less. No permit Okay taller than four you need a permit no matter what taller than six so six this is so inclusive of six just a basic permit taller than six six foot one inch six foot one as we measure it to keep in mind So remember last supplement two supplements ago You did allow for like a six six inch clearance Four inch clear. There's a clearance that's in there. So people you're not measuring from the ground You're measure you can go up a few inches which we see a lot of people do So as we measure it taller than that six feet You you need to meet you have two options really You can just get a basic zoning permit But you have to meet those accessory structure setbacks Which means that you probably cannot put that eight foot fence right on your property line But you do have a path to at least request it that still exists. You have to go to the board They will review that as part of a site plan approval with the Purpose of said district So again, there are options neither one is closed off to you But you don't have an outright ability to put that eight foot fence Right on your property line You could show up to a board and say, you know what? Nobody's around me for 300, you know yards Or I border you know Protected wetland or something in which case they might be more amenable to that And if you meet the setbacks you don't have to go to the board at all So this is different than what exists now because right now if you're taller than that six feet You have to go to the board no matter what but if you have Even if you even if it's not a large property, let's just say you have a small property You want that eight foot fence to be around your new chicken coop that sits center of your backyard You could put that in That's seven foot fence around your chicken coop It's not on your property line. It's meeting that setback. You don't have to go to the board right now You have to go to the board So does that make sense So it's a path for that or let's just say Sarita has a nice little shed First you had a snack bar I can pick on rich I used his example before so rich so rich has a property That used to have chickens sure and and he's like, you know, I got these I got these guys who are parking their cars there They're very nice. You really can't see them, but we want to give them a little more privacy We want to put in a panel 30 feet long that just sort of blocks the view of those cars from the roadway Makes it nicer for the roadway. Not that there's anything wrong with the rich Makes it a little, you know, then nobody knows that there's a Corvette sitting down there We want to put this in just as a privacy panel at seven and a half feet Right now under our current regulations rich has to go to the board. He has to spend $350 More than that you've just been more than that to go to the board to ask for permission for said fence Under this proposal if you're meeting those setbacks, you're not 10 feet Next to anybody You don't have to go to the board anymore But you're not impacting You're immediate next to our neighbor by putting 90 foot fence up right next to their garden or Their septic system or whatever else their window in their bedroom where they're trying to get some sunlight So it seems a good compromise I think it reflects what you talked about last time. What was the one that's taller than eight feet? Ah, okay So taller than eight feet is not allowed on a residential property It is only permitted as part of site plan review, so Costco, huh? That's a pretty tall fence. It's pretty tall fence. Yeah, so but if there is a business Maybe the fort Maybe you know this is construction sale equipment rental place Wants that to sort of you know screen You know from the camp where the the camp Johnson next to it or The folks in the radio station next door say we don't really want to see your back hose They could go to the board and ask for permission for that and the board review that Under the purposes listed in section 801 sound good What about like trees and stuff is that is that not Can someone just plant a row of trees that are going to grow 20 30 feet? Yeah It does apply to walls though, so we treat walls and fences the same I'm sorry. I keep calling these fences, but it would apply to walls as well We treat fall walls and fences the same So what's a wall like concrete? Yeah stone stone stone brick garden wall, so they're the same You would treat them the same Pretty uncommon to see a wall taller than eight feet, but probably not unheard of I know we talked about this, but They are regs say whether or not they can be the fence can be right on the property line or where there has to be It does say That it has to be on the property We encourage people when they come to us to make sure that they know where their property is Because it is a very expensive mistake to make if you miss But it could be right up to the line as long as you're not a hair over And obviously if it requires you to go on to your neighbor's property to put it in you're too close fences Put that one to bed. It feels good, huh? Yep. Okay very creative So again, I wasn't proposing to put that graphic in anywhere, but it does reflect the text Let's go back Electronic message signs, so we've Previewed this to you last time. I didn't have any text for you.  I'm a visual learner Have a supplement supplement 95. We'll have no more words We could just do what will listen does their whole tech their whole let's set of regulations is question and answer Question yeah, do I need a permit for a fence? question answer is All the the regulations it's I love you Williston, but it's weird. Yeah Okay 2.18 G there's your knits. Look at that. It's the non opaque portion of signs Let's move down to Did I have the reference wrong? I had the reference wrong. I think it's actually later Earlier we'll fix that one What are we looking for electronic message? Yes, this one here, so it is 2.18 C so These are the ones that have changeable messages They are currently allowed regardless of what you're doing. We don't have a lot of them in town yet the most Common example I can think of that you've probably seen is up heading towards the village. There is a compounding pharmacy Don't know the name of it It has an electronic message sign. It's not really in compliance because the message changes quicker than it's supposed to but If you've been up that way or if you are going up that way encourage you to take a look at it So that one is there now Again, they're allowed We get a lot of feedback on them people don't like them particularly attractive So what you talked about last time was to say maybe they're not the best signs They have their time in place Especially for things where things are changing frequently a school has a message right about no school today or testing tomorrow or Come see the football team Friday night Theaters Our theater that is in town does not have this sign, but they're commonly accepted as a As an attractive theater sign message changes the movies change daily weekly So carved out an exception for them and the pricing of gas stations Which changes frequently and I do take Do you have some sympathy for those folks who have to go out and put in a little placard of cardboard? So this would allow those The new language here that we didn't talk about in detail So again the the static part of the messages is what's exists now No, I cannot change with any more frequency than five minutes Can't scroll can't flash can't have a video. You can have like fireworks going on on the light None of that is allowed So the size for most of those signs Would still be 10 square feet that was allowed today is allowed today So 10 square feet except I'm proposing here that the gas station pricing 10 square feet is a lot for just gas station pricing For the pricing part of the sign and so I propose to reduce that to five That was our visual exercise. We Looked at what five square feet was We looked at some of the existing Gas station pricing signs because they're they're already out there the freestanding gas station pricing signs Most of them are about five. We just got a Request in for one that was five point Something is about it was about five point five and generally five square feet. We saw as allowing two prices Yeah So it's a number for for discussion necessarily wed to it But we did put a lot of effort into seeing what's already out there And making sure that that wasn't a random number that we just pulled out It does allow for for up to two prices more if you're willing to reduce the size of them Works for me seems like the norm agree with that so in terms of the style is There probably is in any way that they would have to be somewhat the same frame and same style I mean they could be a lot chronic But it wouldn't be that you thought so like 20 different styles You know, it's it's it's interesting because as we looked at them and we just you know, did a Google image search and looked at hundreds of Examples of these it was interesting that what stood out most to us wasn't necessarily the size It was sort of what was around the size. So even if you had the size, but it was part of a broader part if it was a Small proportion of the sign it was much more attractive Than something that took up the entire sign and all you saw was the the price So we definitely observed that but we decided it was just too much to take on right now To figure out how to get that into text Because they were some that were probably bigger than 10 square feet for the pricing, but they were set against you know, this really nice stone Background that had to sort of look natural There was actually just really nice And it was much bigger. I shouldn't say much bigger, but it exceeded what we would allow Yeah, and a part of that we need to set up a quick guardrail that These signs are from across the United States and many of them were probably made to be visible from a major Interstate highway, so they were some of them were quite large And you know, I don't think that's really what I think our takeaway was like there were large ones that were attractive And they were small ones that were not attractive So size alone is not going to dictate how obnoxious they are to pass But it's the easiest one to monitor for now Sort of our takeaway gas stations. They have their company line Yeah, we even looked at like color of the lighting and I was like, oh, I think that the blue looks nice, but the red lighting looks ugly But again, that's my personal thought And it starts to be really really challenging to put into a by-law Yeah All design work is So I think for now we bite off the the size part of it This five right, I don't know but ten feels too big Electronic or changeable message signs except for those Oh, sorry, let me scroll up. So this is a prohibited list Does that make more sense? Yeah, so you're saying that even gas station pricing signs Don't have to meet this So electronic or changeable message signs are prohibited except for except Government school owned theater and gas station pricing signs They're not prohibited That's what you're saying. Yes. Okay. So that's the only places you can have these signs. Yes, okay As proposed here So you're saying it's your by-law so if you don't like it Business can't have their own electronic sign. It says yes, so Rita snack shack Cannot have under this Could not have an electronic message sign That changed every five minutes that said Clam strips hot dogs Sarita Sundays And I have a feeling You know, I never think anything is that I that we're gonna write is perfect It might be that a year from now two years from now somebody comes in says But what about this use you didn't think about this when I really can Yeah, you're right That does make sense there So Businesses they have little signs inside their window Yeah So those outside it's inside their building, but you can see it from the road to the window Yeah, do we Don't spend a lot of time on our sign ordinance generally I know she's become our sign expert Generally we exempt signs. I believe in windows that take up less than 25 percent of The window that's on right, so I think they're just straight out exempt And as much as I would love to clean up the crazy signs that happens in Various windows it could be a full-time job 25% They cannot exceed 25% of the total window area to which the signs are attached and then permitted no restrictions otherwise Yeah, so you could have something that says, you know powerball tonight And just kind of businesses that already have signs that are not in compliance They would be grandfathered I Say that if they were to massively change it they would have to come into compliance, but they wouldn't have to just go out and do it That's how we treat our non-conforming structures We're getting ahead of this one, you know, it could be that next year we have 15 people who are gonna come in I don't know We never know Okay, let's see. That's what's next on my list might be easier if we both sort of tag team this So I have to keep going back and forth Yes That is here So we talked about this one last time, so I think everything that's here Just Reinforces what we talked about So you gave the general approval, so here's the actual language This is about the base of a freestanding sign So the base itself will not count if it meets these things Right now you could have a base whether it's made out of stone or anything else it counts as area as an area of your sign What you talked about was saying yes, let's let's exempt that as long as it's not Creating other issues or looking like it's just makes the sign bigger So what does it mean to not make the sign look bigger so it's not taller than the height of the actual sign panel So if you have a six foot sign you can have an eight foot base Nor larger in area than the allowable sign panels so you don't get a full You know, you can't have a giant base exempted if your sign panel is limited to 28 square feet So is your base? So there is a limit Clearly distinguishable as a support structure And I've defined that here as distinct in color dimensions and material So it does not look like it's a continuation of the sign. I Showed you guys that example of that Delta Hotel sign. I think last time same color same material barely a difference in like It looked like it was all one sign Free of lettering graphics attachments and all forms of advertisement. So it is a base It's not meant to be a sign as soon as you put something on it. It's a sign Sign basis still count towards a sign height. So your total height is still the same as it is today you can't illuminate it and And that's in all cases whether you're counting it as part of your sign or not That's why the user in a different list And should display must display the properties address number Little give to our emergency services I did prepare for you This is a work in progress, it's not my finest graphic moment, but I was trying to visualize like what does it mean to say What does it mean to say that? The the base is bigger or not so This is the next time you see this it's going to say serious snack shack on it So go business What's good about this? The sign in the base are clearly distinguishable But the base is really large. It's larger than the sign And it's the same color so you could almost say that it's not as clearly distinguishable Here's another example What's good the base is shorter fix that distinguishable and material dimensions and color We'll pretend this is a granite here. It's my granite coloring But what did it do wrong? No text? Yeah, but text that becomes a sign my refrigerator sign here There's a lot wrong with it You can't really distinguish. This is the Delta sign really you can't distinguish it They're the same color It really just looks like one large sign and so I Think what I'm going to work on with this is to create a graphic that might actually get included in the appendix to sort of Just give a better visualization But it's still a work in progress. All right Carrying on I Didn't Yeah, it's sort of it's sort of funny if it was a If it was a business that sold gorillas you could probably say it's a sign right because it's advertising the purpose of the business The fact that it's just eye-catchy Argue it's not yeah becomes art And I think that there is actual case law on that so like If you are an ice cream place if you're Ben and Jerry's and you have a giant ice cream cone outside Is it art or is it a sign? I think the courts have have determined that that's a sign because it directly relates to your business but if you put a giant ice cream sign outside of Shadow cross farms Not a sign. Let's you start selling ice cream To read a snack shack maybe more problematic You know, so is it advertising something at that business is generally the approach As far as I know that place down in Middlebury, Shorham, Salisbury, I don't know. They're not selling gorillas Probably not a sign Just art Eye-catching art. Okay Next sec. Oh Sorry, he's doing double duty Next is to 18 and signs for gasoline sales Yeah, so just this is just a cleanup that I saw on here And at some point we'll probably have to do a full cleanup of our sign regs. I dabbled here and there there's a Famous case out of Arizona from I don't know five or six years ago About sign law that really it was first amendment and how it impacts signs and basically the finding that came out of that was You have to be very very careful on what a message what the text is on a sign That you can't necessarily say that you can post For sale but not this like the actual message you're supposed to be message neutral when you create a law and so any messages that say Restricted to restroom or self service Is a problem because it's a very specific text that we are directing Plus I got to be honest with you We don't regulate the signs we do no enforcement of a sign that is sitting on a gas pump We again, it would be a full-time job Because there's just it's so prevalent and so common and We really could spend all day just talking to every gas station in town to say take your You know no smoking sign or whatever Monster energy drinks two for a dollar It's just we Trying to just get out of the the this here We it still says that you can only have so much signage on top of your gas pump But I took the message part of it out of it Because technically I don't think it's constitutional So nothing really substantive here just sort of cleaning it up Because I don't want to regulate messages The Supreme Court has told me I cannot regulate a message So Yes, so there is without getting into that detail there is What our current regulation points to is the state definition of Obscenity obscenity So we kind of just point to the state definition which probably comes from some federal definition So there are certain things that are not allowed But as you probably are aware Nobody wants to wait into what that is and how you're defining obscenities and It's very difficult to win a case when you start to bring in the First Amendment So At some point You know in the future when we have nothing but time I Might suggest looking at our sign ordinance to bring it into compliance with that Supreme Court ruling about signs So basically it was a case just very quickly where a town had said you could I Think it's like a union sign or something But basically the town had said you could allow signs for You know unions, but you couldn't have them for real estate or vice-versa or something like that and Somebody challenged it and said you can't prohibit Real estate signs if you allow union signs and The court agreed with them and said yes, you're absolutely right so content neutral is Is the direction we're given now again, there's still some Alliances in there that we tolerate so like we might say a real estate sign Well, you don't know if it's a real estate sign without reading it so I'm not sure the courts waited on that sort of stuff But every town carves out certain things for real estate signs or or something that okay, you don't know until you read it Okay, so that's all that does there again. I don't think it's anything substantive necessarily Just trying to clean it up Nine we get to jump all the way to nine Okay See it's out of order Yeah, figure probably makes sense to go to nine four ten We'll jump back up the list. I know seven. I don't think Zach told me what I'm looking for this one Congregate housing ah He can't leave he worked on this one Okay, so congregate housing actually I worked on this one, too Please tell me this one was attached. I think it was so I pulled all this out So let me let me approach this two ways So we have like three pages in our text that deals with this Magical bonus for congregate housing Only in areas served by sewer or water Which is very limited anyway Where we don't even have density caps so we have like three pages dedicated to this bonus Which is really hard to achieve really hard to prove And it just struck me as like a whole lot of text That really wasn't serving much purpose. I just tried to Pair it down a little in terms of its volume So there is the red line here there's a lot going on in it It had two separate sections. There's multi-family congregate and there was single-family congregate so single-family congregate basically Only means That your age restricted housing 55 plus can live there. They could all be two million dollar homes Still would meet the definition as long as your age restricted So would give bonuses and density to people who are Exclusively 55 plus Didn't really match with the purpose that's listed in here about providing services, etc So I took the single-family part directly right out Um, feel free to yell at me and tell me to put it back in but that's what's here Again, this is only in areas. You'll see at the very bottom It says Something about how it applies The whole thing only applies an area served by municipal sewer and water As you know, that is a very limited part of our town that is our growth center Which does not have density caps to start with so a bonus would not help people there It is our fort our our gd2 area is served by water and Sewer, but the sewer as we've talked about There's no treatment capacity left there Is it the treatment capacity or is it the old lines? That one I think is capacity because we buy it from Essex I thought that was the the lines that were there they can't handle it because they'd have to enlarge it. Yeah, the growth center is the lines There's plenty of treatment capacity to the growth center out of South Burlington But the lines are problematic and the pump stations The gd2 area along the fort along 15 I think the lines are fine. I Don't know for sure But the real problem is the treatment capacity that is an agreement not with the South Burlington station But with Essex and they're at the max. I think they're at the max even for Essex It's not just that they're not willing to sell us more So I don't think there's a lot of places where this is going to apply anyway The other area where we have municipal water and sewers around exit 16 Where you have affirmed? Residential housing is not appropriate anyway. It's not allowed there So so there's this whole three-page section for something. That's Probably not even gonna happen But rather than just remove it completely what I've tried to do is just pare it down a lot There's this whole thing about recording these documents and they have to say all of these things and You also have to show us your marketing materials to prove your 55 put there is a somebody put a lot of thought into this But I think it's if I'm being blunt over regulated. I don't want to look at someone's marketing materials So I have taken that I have paired it down a lot to remove a lot of redundancy I am proposing here and this is worth noting that 55 Is maybe not the right number in 2023 And I have for discussion purposes change 55 to 65 If you are going to talk about an age Exclusive area So just for discussion purposes keep 55 It doesn't stem from anything federal or state no It's just I think what it's trying to do I think the intent is is wonderful to trying to say look if you're going to create In some towns for example congregate care has no density So I'll tell you there are some some towns. So in South Burlington for example congregate housing does not count as density It just it's like a commercial use for all intents and purposes. There's no units assigned to it But it's limited To multi-families because the idea is that if you're going to have You know so in the spectrum of Housing You've got you know all ages housing. You've got a restrict. You've got Light services so people are still independent But maybe they have a game room or a shared cafeteria or a swimming pool or You know community space shared kitchens, etc And those are actually quite popular There's more and more of them I think popping up in Vermont because they're you know acknowledging that people are still independent But they like the social aspects and they don't need as much space that And then above that is the assisted or skilled nursing Right where you have somebody who's available on staff to to watch over you and then I Guess you could probably even argue that there's a pre Like a nursing home category that's even past that so assisted Living and then you know more of a nursing home in that hospital Congregate in most definitions is really meant to be independent living with facilities that Target folks of a certain age Who could benefit from them or want to benefit from them? and They tend to be smaller They tend to not be you know two thousand square foot units. They tend to be you know fairly limited in size They tend to be dense Because that's sort of the purpose of having you know the sort of socialization some of them are age restricted some of them are age or Ability restricted so you could be younger than whatever the designated ages, but you have You're independent, but you might have again still some social and other needs that are served Maybe you have a disability And so some some definitions would include those people it seemed like a bit much to get into so I left it to just age for you I Would tend to keep it 55 but sometimes you have a Spouse it's much older Another spouse. It's younger so That way I Think that's one reason why there's 55 out there and plus when you're getting rage retired If you want to go with that kind of community a Planned to retire there. You can buy into it early. I would leave it at 55 I did see in here There has been 65 I think my thought was that 55 is Hardly of older age That's what my thought was Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I think there was something in here again This is so long that basically that did talk at length about like how old the other people can be and Nobody under 19 can live there And I I think that whatever it whatever it is it should just be as long as one person meets that But I don't remember where it is Which get over 55 a lot of people looking To go back to 55 again, I think that we're just not gonna see these to be honest with you There's a north West quadrant Yeah, that was slated for Senior housing there, but they have no density caps anyway, so They could put them in tomorrow You know and maybe we can come back to this in the future and say okay we We see that there is a need to incentivize this type of housing How do we do that because I don't think that this actually incentivizes it because it's so limited You only get that bonus if you're in an area served by sewer and water But if it is something that you think should stay in there is something to be incentivized We can do that In the future let's try not to overwhelm you too much here because it's like I think it's a bigger conversation Yeah Yeah Yeah, I don't know I think that the one of the grants said something similar to it called out those two groups of people Flavor middle-aged people are Yeah, so I don't know we can put this in sort of a backlog thing, too If if if there's some feeling that you know, this is the type of housing that we should see more of You know, we can figure it out. I don't think that anything in here. I think it was intended It's clear to me. It was intended to incentivize it by saying here's a big bonus for you But it was probably written before There were no density caps in the form-based code area So I don't I just don't see an incentive that exists in this text But if you do like it as a type to attract you can work on it later And I did again because there's so much red line here, I think at the end I gave you a clean version Somewhere maybe it's not in there. I thought I was in here. I'm sure I attached it But there is a clean version I can send to you that just shows you what it looks like It basically takes four pages and puts it into one Comes out to just about a full page Yeah, that part's a good idea. Yeah, that's for sure It's just so much text You know my go my dream is that at some point these regulations don't scare people There's obviously a lot of scenarios we need to consider But they're really long We regulate a lot of stuff People get very intimidated by them and I think that there's areas where we can Shorten them without having major impacts, you know, for example, I think it's three pages All the definitions for telecommunications are related stuff There's three pages In the definitions that are related to telecommunications I mean, just they're very specific. It's like whip antenna Just don't know that we necessarily need to but I didn't bring that I I left it out. I did not go to oh Next time that was our job. Maybe a couple later. You were close on Thursday. I was close I pulled myself back like Zach. Why is there so much on telecommunications and the definitions? There's so much look at it next time you get a chance just goes on and on and on Next supplement will look at it And I'm sure that there was a reason and I don't know yeah, but some of these things are just commonly understood they don't necessarily need to be Defined in in our regulations anyway Ten oh one J Oh minor minor one here, but I think worth noting So while I'm scrolling I'll tell you about it This is one I admit I was scrolling past it. I'm like, why is this in here? I couldn't keep scrolling So I've called it out for you So 10 oh one J Basically says if you create a subdivision or PUD with more than how many units? 18 units, I don't know where 18 came from but if you have 18 units or more you must Provide an area for people's RVs to be parked Zach informs me Zach informs me that in every review. He's ever done as part of the DRB. He's never sought parking for RVs Well, I also I don't know that I've seen it sought for prior to My reviews yeah Not that I'm just deficient in my no, I didn't mean to imply that I'm Let the records state that Zach is fantastic in his reviews So So there's just this whole thing that says that you have to show this I Have never heard of it being a problem. Nobody's ever called me and said Hey in my so this would apply even to like You know a low martyre or something and over in his way more than 18 units Oh Were we gonna have them pave a parking lot? Just to have parking for RVs should they show up? I Don't know. I'm not sure. It's a useful Land was cheap. We didn't care about building anything probably. Yeah, I don't know. I don't did people have more RVs back in some Interesting This is back in 85 It was a condo development But a lot of people there I thought would be nice if there was a designated area for RVs or boats But there's it was a huge development and there wasn't any And I seem like it would be appropriate that there should have been I Could see I Could see that Probably not just for RVs, but for any sort of overflow or yeah That's usually what happens Is they turn into an overflow for because we only give two parking spaces per condo So people come over and then they complain because they're all parking on the streets and people are guests are coming So they turn that RV parking lot now into your guest parking. Yeah, that's an I find anyways because that's how my business comes to me It's good that the overflow parking lot that was for RVs and boats is now for guests Because they don't want them in the row because we have to plow. Do you know of any? That are still operating that way or that are marked. No, you know of any in All the ones I know are all the ones that come to me because they used to do it 20 years and my guess This has been in here for a long time. We had the same text in South Burlington It was sort of just legacy. It just had sort of been there for a very long time, but But you know RVs are coming back a lot of people have their RVs and it's true And there's nothing that would stop a development from showing it It's just that this requires it And we don't want to be in a position where and it's not waivable by the board We don't want to be in a position where we're not doing our job So It's all right for scratching for me, you're okay for scratching. Okay So everything else just looks red because So and then I did make some I took the liberties since I was here It's a fatal flaw To just propose some other things here. So this base this says any RV parked outside has to be tied down I hear it. I would like to not Just I don't think it's necessary We don't tie down anything else. We don't ask you to tie down your deck furniture. We don't know Tying down your RV It just seems like it's not a zoning function No vehicular equipment regulated by the section is stored out of doors in a residential lot Unless it is a condition for safe and effective performance I think what that's trying to do is you can't have your broken down boat in your front yard If we had to enforce this, I think it would be a big ask I think it's just you know people are working on things or they've got We do have protections against people having a lot of these So if you've got like six boats That are not registered That's a problem. You meet the definition of a junkyard But if you've got your one boat or your one RV that you're working on or isn't quite You know road worthy Let's see, so would you be in violation Stored out of doors on a residential lot unless it is a condition for safe and effective performance I think it means it's not broken Basically, so you're fine. You're fine. You're fine But if your boat did not have a motor in it had a hole you're in the working on patching you would not be fine So I'm just proposing to remove it because I think that In the realm of over regulation I think if someone had a bunch of boats in their backyard or automobiles, whatever Their neighbors would start complaining to your department And we do see it and and when you get to a certain number we do have a definition of a junkyard But I think a single one that's not quite road worthy and that's all that this is basically saying Doesn't mean it's a heap of junk. It just means it's not currently performing It doesn't make us any friends Okay What's next sec 1004 we're getting there No, you want to do this one, this was you right? Wasn't totally me but This one I believe came up initially because of changing Multi-family to multi-unit so kind of brought this one back to the Forefront There's a couple instances when the development review board can require screening between two properties It's a list here saying basically that they are that two properties are dissimilar and should be screened or buffered from one another so there's different uses Or when you know properties appear and should be improved Maybe there's too much pavement too many boats Get some good screening in there Not Not in this section there could be reasons that that junkyard use is not allowed. That's a separate mechanism, but This is just protecting the the eyes of all lookers And then the last section here is when a commercial industrial and Multi-unit dwelling use about to residential district or institutional use And I think in this case here This language is almost repetitive of the first one when two sites are dissimilar and should be screened or buffered from one another You know, I think that the board has the ability to provide that level of Landscaping requirement for all the uses and C's would seem to be duplicative But you know if there's any questions there, of course willing to talk it out So we do think A and B covers All of the examples that we have seen or could potentially see Where it would be appropriate concerns Changes, I don't think so. It's basically somebody's going to have to complain to get to this point Yeah, I mean and sometimes we I mean this is a DRB function. So it could be that There's a property that comes in that is a known sort of Yeah, and there are zones. Yeah, I have an example. I should very reason one. Okay, where Property came in for a proposal to develop mini storage storage units On a property that's zoned industrial and it of the budded either general development one or residential three and you know a lot of a lot of homes around there and The mini storage was going to be relatively close and requires some clearing really, you know close to the property line of an adjoining residential property owner and You know, they actually proposed putting some landscaping in there, but the board Said, you know, this is you're gonna have motion sense of sense of lighting here Possibly, you know at any hour of the day Which you know That sort of use of joining a residential use like to see landscaping that area provide the details really, you know Made sure that pride their lighting plan to make sure that no lighting was going to spill past those evergreen trees So, you know, this is when the board has used that section. Yep. It's a good idea Next Probably quadruple Well 1004 B was so nice we said it twice Yeah, so that's that's all of it, okay Any leftover comments on anything that we can answer scroll back to show you again Just real quickly the temporary CEO Yes, I was just wondering again last time I think I was here. I just Because there are definitions of what constitutes You know a temporary CEO and what does and I'm just wondering if you need a little wiggle room in there so that it's beyond the property owners a Supply chain, you know delay or permitting delay or just something unforeseen that you know that Property owners acting in good faith and that it would be at the discretion of the planning if it can of the plan of you You know that something that you hadn't thought of where they Would get fine or something. Yeah, so the good thing is we don't necessarily find them which A CEO is largely should be used to authorize whether or not you can occupy a building Yeah, yeah, I Think the the concern with having anything too open-ended When you give an inch I think that that's an area where There there are folks who who will use that as a catch-all for Well, I just I didn't do it yet And It's it's it's not a problem that somebody hasn't done that. It's just that we can't We want to be very limited in issuing that CEO because as soon as we do people can move in And if there's too many things for which you qualify it's very hard to stay on top of them And make sure that they do Do them When they're supposed to so try to keep the list kind of short And legitimately, you know, I think that we really only hear from people I'll give you an example of one that actually wasn't a problem somebody came to us and said My elevators on back order. So this happened in the two buildings You know, can I still get a CEO for the building? And the easy answer for us thankfully was An elevator is not a component of your plan for us. So yes, you could still get a CEO because we're not requiring you'd have the elevator The state would yeah, so basically we said go to the state In just in case you're curious the state said Because I think they're a little more. I was bound to Statute as we are interestingly enough The state in that case told them we'll give you a CEO for one floor Or maybe the first two. Yeah, I think it was the first two floors because the requirement kicks in at three I believe yeah but not above so maybe they have more of an ability to monitor all of the Conditions we try to limit them so, I Do think it will take care of 99% of cases There's still gonna be people who occupy buildings without any CEO at all but They may have as I said, they may have a CEO from the state not realizing they need a CEO from the town Don't what I'm thinking of knows that they need a CEO from the town They just haven't bothered to get it Any other I couldn't help it I had to show you guys all this telecommunications stuff up here There's so much telecommunications And on Can you go back to telecommunications available space telecommunications co-location Tower satellite dish An antenna an antenna height crazy adequate coverage, we don't even regulate adequate coverage, but it's in here Just yeah, just keeps going Research that one We'll be We'll be happy when somebody proposes an antenna that's not regulated by the Public Utility Commission and we can stand in Three I think it's four pages Anything else any Thoughts, I mean we're not trying to warn so we've got time. Yeah What we'll probably do I Will have for your next meeting we'll bring you that table of what you Added tonight. There's one more thing that I want to bring you that's not in here It's a very small thing, but I do want to sort of give you a heads up to it We amended the definition of in In a previous supplement, I think that we need to further amend that Just because you know you learn as you go and I don't think it quite I think it could be fixed just a little bit To make sure that again an in is it in We suggest services that are associated with it don't necessarily require them and so Under the current definition it is possible that somebody could just have four rental units With zero services and call themselves an in I don't think that's your intention You probably have some vision of an in in your mind when you think of an in it's probably not a four-unit apartment building But So we'll talk to you next time about and that'll be a letter Pee But it'll be the last one I promise I'll owe you dinner and If I go past P, okay, yeah, it's early yet And we are again still sort of I've got two between now and your next meeting I've got two discussions on the calendar About s 100 and trying to there's some so it's fascinating debates going on about the duplex thing So I have one that is on a calendar for Zach and I with VLCT they are sponsoring a Discussion of that and what their interpretation is. I think that folks from ACCD DHCD you're participating in that one and Then there's another discussion on the calendar Think before the next meeting Of all of the Chittenden County planners to talk about our interpretations as well. So Hopefully we'll have some updates for you by November of where that is going Whatever one agrees on is that we can't agree on it because it's not clear So it'll be interesting to hear from so VLCT if you're not familiar with them It's the League of Cities and Towns they keep on staff attorneys Which work very closely with legislators Anybody's gonna know outside of The legislative council itself, it's gonna be them So I'm looking forward to hearing that I think that's it on regulations Okay, we're at informational items and staff I don't think I put any in there We're very early in the month. So we didn't have the report ready by Friday because it wasn't yet October So we do a month-end report, but that's since been done, but I Can send that out to you guys separately So you had said Your next meeting will be November I believe it's the seventh What is it the seventh? Yeah, the first Tuesday I believe is the seventh So what you guys had talked about and if you want to change this is we plan for one You save your social calendar for two But that we would only have that second meeting if The timeline was necessary like maybe you were almost ready to warn something, but you want to see one little fix You might come back for that second meeting just because otherwise it means waiting a full month But that you would not plan to have a full Agenda of tasks, but just keep it safe. I would keep it saved In case something comes up we would not put anything on those again unless it was like Kathy show us one more thing that we're not gonna warn this for a public hearing Until we see this, but we don't want to wait a full month just to do that So October this would be it we'll meet again November It's like easy for a minute Okay, so we're all set Okay I think so motion for the minutes. I make a motion that we approve the minutes of September 5th 2023 second It doesn't matter Yep, I'll be favorite I think I can second my own motion now I could second it, but it doesn't matter as far as that So I need a motion to adjourn make a motion that we adjourn Yeah, we need to sign some minutes Yeah, I'm supposed to go vacation and I just remember the sense. I'm gonna move to the You