You know who directed the movie because I have the wine in front of me If any and everybody how's everyone doing So before we begin our conversation, I think it would just be nice or good to know who's in the audience So I'm just going to ask a few questions and you can respond with a raise of hands So how many of you are lawyers advocates and the like? People working in film broadcast Journalist bloggers Women's rights activists Yes, activists. I'm an activist as well My team's meaning. Okay. So My name is Ellen Chalemba and with me. I have Karen have Michelle. I have Sarah and I have console a and Yeah, we're going to keep the conversation. It's just going to We're going to keep it casual and everyone will speak Every now and again I'll pose a few questions But I do want this conversation to flow from each person and then eventually will also open up the conversation to the audience So I'll introduce myself a little bit and then everyone was shortly and also introduce themselves My name is Ellen as I mentioned. I I'm here because I have an organization Come in my country Malawi Where we work with young women that were forced to leave school early and are currently Unemployed with little education and basically what we do is we provide economic and education opportunities The economic opportunities that we provide include tie-dying fabric and then eventually selling that fabric to produce school school grants We're very small community based organization But our community is strong where 150 strong women that are pursuing different dreams and that's a little bit about me So, yeah, I'll take it over to you Karen. Sure Is this on great? Hi, everyone. My name is Karen Naemer and I direct the program on sexual violence in conflict zones at Physicians for Human Rights and Much of the work that we do within our program Focuses on training doctors nurses police officers lawyers and judges on the most effective ways of collecting and Documenting and preserving Forensic evidence of sexual violence to help support Prosecutions of these crimes we work primarily in East and Central Africa And we're so grateful for all the work that you have done to help Really reshape the the legal landscape for for international criminal law and now domestic criminal law with respect to sexual violence Well as is that evident from the wine in front of me My name is Michelle Mitchell and I am the writer producer and co-director of the Uncondemned of the movie that you guys just saw Thank you very much for being here tonight by the way I Just so you know you are the last time we were screening this for free in New York City because we have a theatrical Distribution deal is happening in October. Yes And it is it is my great privilege I always say that it doesn't matter how good the idea is If you don't have a team who's willing to help you make something you are not going to make a film It's just not possible. And so I am so happy to sit in front of you and represent my team And I have to say that we have a board of advisors and two of them are here tonight And I'd love to point them out to Kim brazil Lara. Where can you wait you there we go? There she is If you enjoyed the wine tonight applaud harder harder because she's the reason why I had the wine Lauren Anderson who I always say is the most badass woman I know if you ever have one phone call to make call her She's sitting right here. So, thank you And my co-executive producer Artie Tandon and the COO Marie Arlo This is the final night here in New York City for our Brazilian intern Giovanka so Giovanka you did a great job this summer and Your final review will be in later Anyway, so I'm really pleased to be here tonight and like I said on behalf of my whole team Thank you for being here on an August night in New York City And I'm Sarah D'Arshiri and since since the time in the in the movie with my 80s hair in the 90s was my friend pointed out. I I've been at human rights watch for about 11 or 12 years in the first Five years, I know more than that. I guess six years or so. I was in the international justice program so continue to work on some of these issues and then more recently, I've been working in the US program working specifically on sexual violence issues and Very happy to be here with this great panel and also physicians for human rights. So the first person I met was Bill Haglin from Physicians for Me So they played a big role in the in the forensic work of the Rwandan tribunal, too. So It's on yes My name is Consolene Nishimwe. I'm a genocide survivor like these women. I Wrote about my experience of what happened to me like what these women have talked about in the in the in the documentary, so My book is called tested it to the limit a genocide survivor story of pain and resilience to hope and I'm trying to be a voice for so many women who are not speaking up even now So yeah She's like, oh hi, I wrote a book now. She's the person she's the first person The first woman in Rwanda who spoke up about what the experience of Rwanda women in the genocide She broke the path for everyone else including the women you just saw in this film. So Thank you Thank you So actually we'll start with you Michelle. So what drove you to create this piece? It's masterpiece. Well Thank you for calling it a masterpiece I'm mixing it down wait until what you see in October. It's gonna be amazing.  So you start listening to anything on the radio and I had a rental car So I had no CD. So I in 2012 had a great Moment of listening to a man named Todd Aiken who was running for US Senate in Missouri say the Women can't get pregnant from legitimate rape because I have a way to shut down their bodies And I was so mad I started screaming at my radio, which is a totally normal thing to do in LA on the freeway And I was on my way to see my mom by the way, so I had a lot of other stress And so I was like, you know what this is that's it. I've had it. I've had it with this issue I am going to take the sex out of sex crimes and I'm gonna do a story that talks about what this really is It's an act of power humiliation And torture and then I was like well, I don't want to depress myself for the next three years So how do I tell a story about what to do? Why don't I talk about the first time rape is prosecuted as a crime of war? But I promise you I did about seven months of research about the Yugoslav tribunal Because that was the only thing I'd heard about and then it was only when I was on the road with my first Documentary which is about Haiti and what happened the money done major charity and was having a true I'm sure surprised to you guys I was having a glass of wine with a human rights lawyer and she said oh you want to do a story about Okay, so and I was like I'll go what? and then it started to Just it was like a I can only describe it to my journals and friends where we do lots of investigative work It often leaves us nowhere. This was like a little path of flowers that just opened up and people were ready to talk and Within probably three weeks after that first conversation. I met Sarah who ended up to be like living down the street from me Who also really loves wine? I'm like, but why are we not friends so so that's how it started I was stuck in traffic and I got really mad and Todd Aiken wherever you are I am sending you a fruit basket every year. Thank you for changing my life for leading me to this story so Sarah now we're in Rwanda and You're starting up the case one of the things that Was visible is that there were not that many resources to work with starting with printing paper Your reactions are exciting that numerous times you do swear but So what what kept you going? What? What was the inspiration for you to really just What inspired you that this was going to happen? So I first of all Michelle made it look much better than it was So much worse. We got that there is not I mean that we had to use doors as Desks over garbage cans because there weren't any desks or chairs and we just couldn't get the photograph And to get to the coffee machine to copy the indictments We had to walk down to this was before we had Unimera's offices. So we had to walk down the street For like a half a mile in the dust to get a photocopy of anything done the phone line I mean it rang one time the whole time it was it was like the the situation was It was not what I thought the UN Would be like oh Yeah, and the prosecutor didn't at the time Was an English speaker and the deputy prosecutor was a French speaker and the head of investigations was an English speaker And so none of them could communicate directly with that and that was the least of it I thought the car the car to get a car I mean there the whole thing it was not set up the UN was just not set up to have To be a justice mechanism. So, you know if we wanted to get a witness we would have to Suck up to the secretary of the deputy Prosecutor who had access to four or five vehicles and our whole investigation team couldn't get any so we would have to we would require like lots of Planning and cajoling and whatever and they would shut off the phone lines because someone didn't pay their personal phone bills And we'd say but we have a witness we have to get and that would be anyway. It was it was It was not an ideal Model of efficiency or anything actually, but On the other hand, I went over with the idea that it would be you know the bringing justice for these crimes would help Rwanda move past the atrocities and lead to a better future for the country So I went in very idealistic. I was You know as As I was seen in the film thrills to have an opportunity to be like a small part of this What I was sure was going to be a model justice institution so And you know and then once you start working with survivors and and have a sense of the Normity of the crime, you know, it's very personally, you know, even more compelling but I definitely thought it was something that would contribute to lasting security and and Sort of reconciliation in the country. I don't think now I think I'm not sure that I'm less convinced that that's the case actually having spent time there for For various reasons including the nature of the genocide itself, which was so broad It wasn't hidden from anybody and it involved so many people and the tribunal only brought a small percentage of people to justice I'm very very small and so so many people were affected. It didn't get both it didn't cover The entire scope of what it needed to cover to be perceived as impartial and fair and And it was just a I mean, it was just a There are some reasons why it was harder. We didn't have outreach mastered I mean as a new as a new mechanism there were a lot of things that that the tribunal was learning as we went along and so I think that there are things that You know our have been improving and other, you know as time goes on and other justice mechanisms, but But I had hoped for I guess a more positive impact in Rwanda itself Where there are other cases that you were drawing from in the moment, so just you during the trials as well So there wasn't I mean this was there wasn't you mean precedent or other cases that I was working on that other people were working on that You you were just trying to see how other people are moving around Sector so not so much I mean that was one of the things that was so interesting about the case was that because it was a first trial We didn't have any examples to draw from and the Yugoslav tribunal hadn't tried genocide yet And so we were kind of we were kind of winging it and we didn't have access to the internet And so we couldn't and we had a blank. We hadn't throw one in the law book We had you know a couple of basic texts, but we didn't have much except for so it's sort of like it was common sense You know so when they said oh, how do we interview a suspect? It was like well, we record it But it wasn't there wasn't anything I mean on the other hand it was an interesting opportunity as a new lawyer, but But on the other hand there was nothing that could be done that was wrong because there was no prior practice in place so what we were hoping was that we would set some you know sensible things that that were fair and and Worked that would be used later on Consulate you tell stories you tell your life stories you interact with other people What is your reaction watching the uncondemned and the women tell their stories? I love to really thank you so much really for all the work you've done and really For me as a survivor it really meant a lot because I've never heard anyone else who has really Worked hard even even within a country yet to prosecute rape yet, so for me to see that really meant a lot to me and Having these women and giving them a platform to speak for so many women who are not speaking yet Really, I was young for me to even follow what was happening in the tribunal, but when I learned through The media and what you've done and then with the film and really for Michelle for making sure the world know This this case really for me. It's it's meaning for it speaks for so many women around the world who go through These horrible acts for me as someone who went through that during the genocide When I started telling my story, it was not very easy I didn't know where to begin and even how to tell my own story because I was 14 years old during the genocide and At that time Living in the area you mentioned Kibuya. That's where I was born and grew up so many people were murdered so and hiding there was not very easy as you followed what happened at that time and And during that time like so many other like these women and I was raped and for me After that happened to me losing my three brothers who were slaughtered and through and through their bodies and in our destroyed home and My father was killed so many of my family members my grandparents and my aunts and so many people And Surviving with my mom Who so right after it happened to me? She saw How I looked and for her as a mother it was not very easy to see me and having the trauma of seeing herself having that trauma and She carried that from my heart within myself too. So Both of us it was not very easy for me at that time. I didn't know I was going to talk about my experience until I came in this country having to get the access to the The the treatment because I was contracted it I contracted HIV as a result of rape and and Having access to therapy and being able to talk about The things I carried within myself so many years It was not very easy, but I came to a place where I felt I needed it to Be a voice for these women for those women I know some of of my friends. I have friends who were never be able to tell publicly what happened to them. I have friends of mine whose mothers were raped in front of them and As soon as I spoke about it and I was able to write it in my book It was a therapy for me at the same time. I felt like I'm being a voice for these Survivors who kept encouraging me to and they kept encouraging me keep being our voice and seeing these women Along with me. So I feel encouraged more to keep going out there and talk about it because this is happening all over the world and And This crime is a horrible crime. It leaves us deep scar within yourself You can't find words to describe the pain you feel within yourself But at least when we talk about it we can get some justice even though you may not get the You know the healing you need within yourself at least there's a justice out there for for survivors So for me, that's one of the main reason I don't keep quiet I will keep talking about it and Encourage other survivors so that these horrible act stop And for us survivors we should not keep it should be the ones to carry the shame Those who have done it should be the ones to carry that shame for the rest of their lives. Thank you So in your work with physicians for human for human rights One thing that you do highlight is that um response is always one thing that is behind in terms of cases of sexual assault What are some of the Areas where you feel that we could advance in terms of response at what groups need to be to be pushed to be better responders in such situations and So I just want to actually begin my answer by saying it's such a privilege to be on This panel with all of you and to thank you so much Michel for bringing these stories to To to view and with so much humanity One one of the things that we work on it at Physicians for Human Rights is we recognize Thanks to the work of a kaiyasu and and to the team to the survivors who so bravely came forward to the prosecution team that that mass reminded this case and and and Managed to usher in this victory What what it did as as the film so so aptly showed is that it really did transform the legal landscape at the International criminal law level and so now we have the international criminal court that is the most comprehensive articulation of the laws addressing sexual violence right now and the challenge for us is that The laws at the international level and slowly More and more even at the domestic level for those who are using the Rome statute of the international criminal court Domestically that the laws may even be improving at the domestic level The big challenge that we see all the time is that there is a real challenge in enforcing those laws So the work that we're doing at the national level at the grassroots level is working So closely with the first responders the very first people that a survivor can can have contact with whether it's a doctor a nurse a police officer even in some cases an administrative chief or a local Person of a Privilege status and we try to sensitize them on how to even work with a survivor and Recognize exactly that that the shame is not theirs It belongs with the perpetrator and how can we all together working as a team as a pure support system for the survivor better support the survivor by by referring him or her them to to the services that may exist in their communities and more specifically how each First responder and stakeholder in the justice process really understands that they Personally have a role to work with the survivor with respect and with dignity And what's more is they must work with each other to better support the survivor at the center of this process So through our trainings we train the doctors the nurses the social workers the police officers the lawyers and the judges very Very much consistently with the Pruitt memo How to how to treat the survivor with dignity with respect how to ask Questions that may not be so Directed that don't have that are not judgmental But that try to draw out the story because one of the other challenges is that when a survivor Dares to come forward and so many don't but for those who do dare to come forward What a shame If the evidence is not adequately documented to support their allegations So we are really working so hard to seize that opportunity and to train these first responders to really use those Moments where a survivor is daring to come forward to ask those comprehensive questions and document those findings whether it's physical Psychological evidence from the crime scene etc to document those findings so comprehensively so that when the case could be made in court. It's so compelling and And and there's a better chance for success during the research were you able to come across any kinds of Practitioners that were trained in that sense to be able to present them as witnesses So I would say there was not much training. I mean I think there were that was one of the big I Think learning experiences for the tribunal is we had I mean we had Patricia who was great who came down and talked to people but in terms of Sensitivity and sexual assaults.  And so the process the Investigative unit sent out a team of women, but the problem was the same thing actually They also were were you raped and they sounded an African woman who hadn't been trained at all? And I think I've met the person she's talking about. He's a wonderful person but literally Were you wait like that's your first question. Sorry like that's your first question really But it was just it was a different time, but it was where and I think also I mean now since I work on these issues and I all you know, even though I had trained it and worked at rape crisis Center, I have a greater understanding to now I think of just the biology of trauma and the effects of it on people's memory and how you approach people and interview people and And actually the importance of a gatekeeper like go to leave in establishing a relationship of trust with the community That was so so important But the other thing is just following up on your comments is in the work I do in the United States It's absolutely, you know, I'm sure over the years you've read about the rape kit backlogs, you know And it's the exact same thing. It's a shame It makes such a huge difference how people respond to sexual assault victims when they come forward and the chances of having post-traumatic stress disorder or serious trauma goes up Exponentially if the law enforcement responds badly if the nurse responds badly if the first person that they come to says Well, why were you drinking why you know it blames them There's so much misunderstanding about sexual assaults still and it has such a devastating effect on survivors and so much of what the work That we've been doing in the US program at Human Rights Watch over the past few years has been getting police to respond to take those rape kits I mean I was shocked to find out that people would go through the trouble that people would be brave enough to come forward go through a horrific four-hour, you know Physical intimate exam after being traumatized in the you know in the middle of a crisis And then that the police would just chuck the the kits aside and what that shows is that a lot of police would decide on the spot It wasn't a good case so that wasn't even worth taking to the lab and they wouldn't even do an Investigation and that was something that we've been working on covering and then on military sector anyway, but this is like a whole Another thing At any level it's it's not just something that is in Africa and other places where that it's it's something that is everywhere and it's And it is a huge important thing for people to understand and it's have been a great change in the United States to have survivor-led Advocacy where people are coming forward using their names And saying you know the shame is not with me exactly as as you say And I think that's the biggest shift right now and in these cases, but anyway the problem is broader than So Note that this is similar in any sense But one thing that console a mentioned was in telling the story the difficult part is also even thinking of where to begin Yeah, and where to go with it and for you Michelle I know that from what I understand there was no production crew for this piece and Where where how did you decide how you are going to start how you are going to craft this piece and also What what did you envision to come out of this documentary feature? Well? Wow, that's our story. I'm gonna try to truncate it because I'm sure people have questions, but so look we Nick my my co-director, and I had a great Advantage going into this. We just want a really big award. We just won the Murrow award We actually beat 60 minutes been law and special by doing an investigation into the eight industrial complex and bust in the American Red Cross Who also should get a fruit basket from me every year for giving my career? So we so people knew us and I came to him and I was like we have to do this story He's like what are you talking about? I want to go and do narrative films. I want to do real movies And so as I started to research the story. I kept coming him. I met this amazing person Sarah Darshore. He goes I don't care. No, I met this another amazing person pure prosper. He's incredible I don't care and then I but he did start to care because I started to tell him more about it and Nick intrinsically was into this story he's had two sisters and an enormous sensitivity to This this weird imbalance of the fact that this wasn't taken as seriously as any other crime of war I had been to the IDP camps. I had been in post-conflict situations I had actually personally seen a lot of the Effects of what this meant, but then when I met the women the first time and I cashed in my frequent fire miles and I flew off To Africa and I met them and I came back and I was like it's on we have to do this And the moment from for me that there's so many moments where it was a driving force The fact that they trusted us with their story There's so much that you didn't see on in this film because I didn't shoot it a lot of stuff that goes into making this means that I I went out there and went to places that I I didn't really ever want to go and probably could have gone my whole life without knowing that Things like this existed and people did things to each other like this But I remember looking at this group of women Not in Rwanda and Congo and I remember telling them I promise you I am going to find a way To make sure that people understand what this is I'm not going to tell them I'm going to show them and I'm not going to make people disgusted I'm not going to repel them. I'm going to make them think I'm going to make them understand that there is a possibility to change this because there really and truly is you know of all the things that go horribly wrong and you guys are hearing a lot of it right now and I Personally have been watching a lot of cat videos on YouTube to make myself feel better. So I used to be a political reporter I'm like I can't take this anymore But the fact is is that we do get it right We do get it right once in a while and when we do we have to build on that And so what Nick and I set out to do was to tell a story that should hopefully Inspire and empower and make you walk out of your thinking. Fuck. Yeah. Sorry But fuck yeah, we got it right we can do this again It's possible and that's what we set out to do and I actually I have an act of death threat against me in Congo with that We'll show you saw the end so I'm not supposed to go back But I I'm definitely going back because I want to see those women again that I met and I want to say I Found that story. I'm pretty sure we told it the way I'm pretty sure the world is gonna hear your voice So that's what we set out to do and as you know from watching the credits, you know that Nick didn't survive to see this moment he turned in the film at the Hampton's Film Festival where we had won a big award and Texted me to let me know he had dropped it off and the film wasn't finished and He said I'm proud of this film I'm proud of us and then he died three hours later in a single-car accident He crashed into a tree at the age of 34 And once I got out of the shock of losing my partner I was like, oh my god I have to finish this movie and I remember crying going how am I gonna do this? I don't know how to do what's left to do and I'm all alone and I remember a friend of mine saying Michelle You are not gonna be alone. Everyone is gonna help you and so I want you all to know in this room Everybody didn't help me finish and we're about to go into the final mix And it's you know, like I said, it's a privilege to be able to sit up here and say we have a theatrical release it's a national theatrical release and we have all these premier gala scheduled around the world and Everybody helped us finish and so I personally would love to say I didn't envision this being the film Honestly, I thought he would be sitting right next to me. I know Sarah thought that he'd be sitting right with us Constantly madam. We all thought that he would be sitting right with us But in a way he is because we finished the film so So thank you to so many of the people who run this room So before we open it up to the audience, I would like to see if you maybe have a question for each other Um Sure, I always have a question the journalist always does actually my question is for Karen I'm just wondering because I get asked all the time literally all the time about what's going on with the Yadzidi women And is it possible to prosecute them at the level of the ICC? So what are you aware of any? Efforts on the level of the first responders to collect the evidence. It's a great question. So so we recent journal And actually as it happens this is an issue that we're we're also involved with some one of the biggest challenges is Documenting crimes of sexual violence or frankly any crimes in an act of war zone And so that's a huge challenge with respect to Areas in Iraq in northern Iraq. Some of it is a bit quieter, but it's still It's still a huge challenge, especially when people are fleeing and then what justice system are you working with? so in a way some of the systems that we're working with in in the Democratic Republic of Congo right next door to Rwanda in A way, I mean, it's a country with its own slew of challenges on every level But there's a stable enough system that we can work with the justice process there with the military justice with Civilian justice with all of its warts and wrinkles There are people that we can work with in in context where there is a hot war where people are fleeing where the And the authorities in certain regions like ISIS Are not people who are going to to care about a justice process. It makes Documenting these crimes and advancing these cases very difficult However, the work that we are doing at Physicians for Human Rights is trying as best we can to work with the people who may have Contact with these survivors and to help them have the tools the skills to be able to document these crimes when they do Connect with these women and with many of the survivors from these active war areas And to be able to document these crimes so that when the time comes And there's a Justice mechanism that may be able to step in and address these these crimes There will be documentation there that they can use to put these cases forward One of the biggest challenges is if you don't do this documentation and a justice process actually does materialize in a few years There won't be adequate evidence to support these allegations So the time is now to be documenting these crimes so that when Hopefully there is a justice mechanism that can step in there will be ample evidence to support these allegations revenue questions, I Was close to tears from very shortly in the film very very almost the beginning of the film until this very moment and it's Had a profound effect on me. Thank you all very much in the film one of the the statements that impressed me deeply is is The statement that the survivors Want justice not revenge Earlier in the film There is a very clear statement that the courts are dealing with the law Not necessarily with justice Has this case Made a difference in that do you think or how in the future? do we get the courts to deal with the issues of Justice rather than with the issues of the law that's one question the second question is with regard to Rwanda There's another film that I admire very much called my neighbor my killer by Ann Aguilne and it chronicles the reconciliation Discussions mandated reconciliation discussions in which people who were victims of the genocide are formally forgiving Their rapists the murderers of their husband's brothers and they're trying to Reconcile because the country can't move forward at all until there is some form of agreement how has This Court procedure on an international level affected that Reconciliation process or how is it related to that reconciliation process? I think both parts of your questions are best answered by Sarah and my consulate Okay, so on the first part of your question I Think the key is really to have laws be closely aligned to what perceptions of justice are because you can't have judges With their own perceptions of justice or biases and they really are obligated to adhere to the law so what you want to have is the Best possible laws and I think that there is an effort to evolve, you know with each, you know, especially with the ICC statute there was a lot of Discussion and and debate over what the what the best possible statutes would be for defining these crimes and and and they were they revisit that every Periodically to see make sure it's it's in good shape the International justice will always only capture a very small portion of perpetrators so complementary mechanisms are really important So national prosecution mechanisms are very important, but in some communities Where there is a strong cultural? History already of reconciliation mechanisms there can be very useful community based Healing processes, but there are also Limitations to those in some circumstances. So For example for really serious crimes it's very hard to Have community groups just to have it be accepted and not you know with just some Apologies or a labor if that person killed your family or raped your family or whatever. It's very hard To do that then there are also there are sometimes concerns about the rights of the accused too because people sometimes can Abuse those processes. I mean there are a lot of stories about people pointing the finger at someone who they had a Personal dispute with over their land or something else then There are other issues as well with respect to perceptions of fairness and I mean actually while I was in in terms of What crimes are selected who is chosen for prosecution? So there are a number of things that can impact how effective the gacha or community based Reconciliation measures are and and it can depend a lot on different things And in fact Mozambique was very successful in part because there was the in doing mechanisms like this In fact one of the most successful places, but it was partially because people they had a really strong community Program that already did sort of reconciliation things and also It was the split was not ethnically based it was within One's own family you could have people from opposition parties and so there was a stronger incentive for people to want to come together after And so there are certain factors that can make those mechanisms more successful in some places than others in Rwanda, I mean it was interesting It's very hard to talk in Rwanda now because there's not There's a freedom of speeches a little bit circumscribed by The current regime, but the but I did have a chat with someone when I was there who told me that he was forced to You know forgive the people who killed his parents and how Uncomfortable he was with that situation and how his children you know now those people want it to play their children to play with his children and how Painful that is so I think it's a bit of an open question as to how You know ultimately that will happen and there are a lot of different factors And unfortunately I wrote a report on this and so that no one read For Human Rights Watch so I could talk about this for far far far too long, and so I will cut myself off But constantly happening what about what happened with your family? Is Of course the people who have committee of the crimes for my family Myself I faced somebody who did horrible acts to me of rape In the prison But then I came I was young at that time, and I didn't even know how to even express in words you know In front of him it was so scary for me to even face him at that time and And then when I came here That's what when I learned he passed away because HIV and you know AT had and and pass on in and you know And It was very hard for me and my mother of course she lives where next name You know to the people who have done horrible things to us and I've learned What my mom had told me that for me to be able to move on with my life I Should not carry any anger or hatred within me So for her she had to go back to school and teach some of the kids of the people who have done horrible things So has during the genocide so and for me to see her You know doing that I've learned that for me to have a better life Of course, we should have justice But I should not have to have the hatred they had in order for me to To have a healthy and fulfilling life I should not carry any anger or hatred within me Of course, it took me a long time to be able to get to that stage But for so many survivors you have no choice because these people live next to you So you have no no choice. These are the people you're going to be in a market You're going to share you're going to the same school to the same, you know church For you to have to be able to to have some sort of a kind of normal life like you had before You had to find a way to have that peace within yourself. So And for so many perpetrators They've never came forward to ask for forgiveness to us. So for so many survivors it's like for them to to do that but Perpetrators most of them have done that because they knew Some of them forever how long they've been in prison They might be released and go back to this community service and leave back in the community and for the country They had no choice of finding a way to make people live together. That's the only way they can they can do that and and Of course for survivors, it's a for us. We'll always have these You know pain and some of us are taking a long time to heal because there are perpetrators Who still have that? Showing that if they get a chance, they can do the same thing they have done You can tell because our survivors are right after testifying in the core in the church accord the church accord Who were immediately killed? There are some articles showing that Some survivors have been killed. Oh, you know years before right out when the church accord was happening at that time. So this is For survivors it will take many years for us to be able to to live our lives We have to find some some Something to help us live well. So at least have some, you know Because we have we need to have the peace within ourselves. So for the perpetrators we We are not looking for at least for them to few of them have been came forward to us for forgiveness Someone who killed my brother my brother who was a neighbor for my family for so many years He was able to write a letter to my mom You know How he feels what he's done. He feels so bad for what he's done I I actually put the letter in my book and and Try to translate it But I put in for those who can read King Arundah can see exactly the way he wrote the letter. So Not everybody was the same like what he did for me and my mom We we had to talk about it and she had we had to make sure that we are not having any hatred towards this person and And it's something that we had to talk about it, you know gradually and be able to to see that we See alive we need to to live for others and for me I think me and my mom were so fortunate to be alive because not so many survivors who have a parent because I have survivors who've lost everybody and They have all these painful memories they carry within themselves at least for me I went on my mom's shoulder and cried on her shoulder whenever I needed the time to cry There are we those who live by themselves and this in our culture. We don't have a system of nursing homes These are they are getting to a point where now they are alone Just having the griefs on their own In their homes and no one to to talk to they because they are their kids were all killed and and their husbands and some of the the the widow the Women who have children from rape the trauma of a child was born from rape and the mother Because she doesn't know how to talk with this kid and these are the something that I want also for us to discuss about The trauma of a child who was born from rape because she's going to hear or he is going to hear some His father was a killer.  That's how she was born who was born and the mother has a trauma and and At the same time that there are some of them who have physical disabilities from rape like you saw on On the screen how they were tortured physically. I'm one of the fortunate ones That's why I speak because I can walk. I am fun. I can function if physically Mentally at least I can I can sleep and I can do things. So there are I have I know a friend She's her name is Mary. That's I can give you her name So it's someone who is being in bed for more than 22 years because she can't function physically Her body was completely destroyed during the genocide. She's in bed But she find a way to to have a smile on her face when she sees you It's almost like when she hears my story. She's also she she feels bad for me, but I always look at her and as someone who found a way to have the joy despite The pain she's having all the time physically. That's an example. I'm giving you of one person. There are so many those who will live with HIV like myself and In when we take medication it reminds us what happened to us and It's not very easy because it's like a reminder of what she went through but for me In order for me to be able to move on with my life I found a way to look at my medication as as like a vitamin because I want to be able to function Be able to function mentally and be able to do the things I'm doing to be a voice for these women and and I think For for us if for for so many people it's so important to Talk about there. There are so many things to talk about with about these survivors There are so many great things to happen in the country, but for survivors We need to keep having the platform to be able to express those Those things we have and because all of us have different ways of copying with what happened to us So I think that's all I can say I just want to add something really fast that what constantly just told you You can't other this you can't say oh it happened once upon a time in Rwanda I hear these stories all the time ever since we've we crowdfunded this film We're still crowdfunding this film So we've been crowdfunding since October 2013 and I get emails and phone calls and text messages from all around the world and It's all the same and it's not Women and girls all the time. It's men. It's boys Every region it's every religion and the thing that literally stops me every day is what is wrong with people And why are we talking about this? I know it's really not the most comfortable thing But seriously Donald Trump's not the most comfortable thing either right and we have to talk about some of these things We have to start talking about what is happening out there in war zones and what does conflict mean? Conflict means civilians pay a disproportionate price. That's reality So we have to start dealing with this It's not boots on the ground some glamorous like Ernest Hemingway parachuting and having a whiskey and then saying I shot a spanner today Whatever it was, you know, that doesn't exist It's these terrible terrible stories where people have gotten away with this and the minute that people like Constellate become the majority Where they stand up and say who they are what their name is and like you know what?  That was the intent of the perpetrators She's gonna turn this into a moment of empowerment of guess what I'm gonna swallow these pills every day as a I'm still here Ha ha ha and I have a voice and the minute that we actually start talking about this and take away the stigma And the power of this it's actually going to stop. This is not a naive thing.  I don't think that's possible But I do think it's very very possible to mess with the minds of these perpetrators who think that they're gonna get away with it Now we have to take it as seriously as any other war crime. We have to stand up for the people I constantly who come forward and understand. I mean, I personally have seen victims as young as three I've heard of victims as young as three months and I've met victims as old as 93 and that's both genders So this is everybody it can't be othered. It's every region. It's every gender. It's every age It's every religion and we have to solve this together Fortunately, we've run out of time, but There wouldn't have been enough time but Panelists are around so you can't catch them if you have further questions to follow up then Before we close, I would just like to say thank you to all of you for being here and Michelle Thank you for sharing this story and creating this platform so other people can Learn more about the random genocide and especially victims of sexual assault. So thank you all for being here Thank you for opening up and just really sharing with the audience and with me as well. But um, yeah, so Thank you all for coming. Thank you for joining us International Film Festival, so thank you go. It's fabulous Thank you


So, we understood how industrial profit emerges through the competitive process. Next we want to understand the second fragment of surplus value which is the profit appropriated by commercial capital as commercial profit. To understand how and why commercial profit arises, let us go back to the circuit of capital. So, the circuit of capital in the circuit of capital surplus value is generated here. The circuit of capital shows that surplus value will be realized only through sale. Unless the surplus value is realized through sale, the circuit of capital gets interrupted because unless the commodity form transforms itself into the money form meaning unless the commodities are sold for a sum of money, the next cycle of the circuit of capital cannot begin. Therefore, a capitalist class which specializes which separates out from the industrial capitalist and starts specializing in organizing activities real related to the realization of surplus value emerges. And that fragment of capital is what Marx calls merchant capital. So, merchant capital is the fragment of capital which has separated out from industrial capital. Industrial capital organizes the process of production, production broadly understood remember to include the physical act of production, but also transportation storage etcetera. Commercial capital or merchant capital is the fragment of capital which organizes the pure buying and selling of commodities. Now, Marx distinguishes two types of merchant capital or two subclasses. One is what he calls one is what he calls commercial capital or commodity capital which is the fragment of capital which is involved in the pure buying and selling and the other part is what he calls money dealing capital. Money dealing capital is a part of merchant capital which is directly involved in facilitating the sale by managing the monetary aspects of the transaction meaning doing the bookkeeping doing the accounts keeping track of money and those kinds of things. Now, we are not going to use this distinction we will call all of this capital which specializes in facilitating the transformation of commodity into money and money into commodity which is the capital which is which helps in realizing the surplus value as merchant capital or commercial capital. And the profit that is earned by this fragment of capital is what we will call commercial profit. Now, how does commercial profit arise? What is the mechanism through which that happens? The mechanism through which commercial profit arises is the following. We can think of a two part sale of the commodity. So, on the one hand is industrial capital which has produced the commodity and then on the other side is the consumer which will consume the commodity. So far we have kind of assumed that the capitalist who produces it directly is able to sell to the consumer, but that is not what happens in advanced capitalist countries as capitalism develops there is a segment of capital who intervenes which is merchant capital. So, what happens is that instead of industrial capital directly selling to the consumer industrial capital sells to merchant capital and then merchant capital sells it to the consumer. The price at which the consumer buys is the price of production. So, that is the price at which we have done our calculation. So, that is the price of production. The price at which the industrial capital sells to merchant capital is some intermediate price let us call it the merchant price or the price of price of the merchant. No, not price of the merchant let us call it the an intermediate price. So, what happens is that the intermediate price is lower than the price of production. So, industrial capital sells the commodity to merchant capital at a price which is less than the price of production and then the merchant capital the merchant capitalists sells the commodity at the price of production to the consumer through this process the total surplus value which was supposed to be realized through this price of production gets divided into two parts. One part is realized by industrial capital another part is realized by merchant capital. Now since merchant capital also operates on a capitalist basis for the merchant capital to operate for the merchant to operate he has to maintain his office he has to hire workers that means he has to also lay out capital on the process of realizing surplus value. Now any capitalist who has sums of money would not get involved in the process of realizing surplus value as merchant capital unless the system guaranteed the same average rate of profit to merchant capital as to industrial capital and that is the principle which determines how the total surplus value gets distributed between industrial capital and merchant capital. Whatever is the total surplus value that is entailed by the price of production gets divided into two parts in proportion to the amount of capital involved in industrial capital and the amount of capital involved in merchant capital. Let us look at an example to make this more concrete. So let us go back to the example that we worked out in the last segment where we understood prices of production but instead of dividing the capital into five sectors let us pull them together and make them into one sector. So now we have industrial capital and industrial capital has constant capital of 390, variable capital of 110 and the rate of surplus value is 1 and therefore the surplus value generated is s is 110. Now the new factor which we are bringing in here is commercial capital. So now let us say the industrial capital does not directly go and sell the commodity to the consumer but instead sells it to commercial capital. Commercial capital requires to set up an office to maintain staff all of which requires constant and variable capital. Let us say commercial capital requires 40 constant capital and 10 variable capital so that a total of 50 units are required to be laid out as commercial capital to facilitate the sale of the commodities. Now we want to see how the two step sale of the commodity leads to emergence of two prices and how the total surplus value gets divided between these two segments of capital. The first and most important thing to realize is that commercial capital which is merely involved in selling the commodity does not generate any surplus value therefore the total surplus value generated in the system remains as before 110. But since the capital laid out in commercial capital must earn the same rate of profit as the capital laid out in industrial capital as industrial capital we will calculate the rate of profit the average rate of profit by taking account of this and this. So the average rate of profit now will be the total surplus value which remains the same as before divided not by just 500 but by 500 plus 50. So the average rate of profit is now the surplus value computed as a ratio of the amount of capital laid out as industrial capital plus the amount of capital laid out as commercial capital. So the rate of average rate of profit comes out as 20 percent remember when we did not have commercial capital in the picture the average rate of profit was 22 percent. So because of the intervention of commercial capital the average rate of profit falls and that is precisely because a part of the surplus value is now being appropriated by a fragment of capital which is not involved in its generation. But it gets that because it helps in realizing the surplus value by organizing the sale of the commodity. Now let us calculate these two prices. So what happens we have seen is that the industrial capital will sell it to merchant capital which will in turn sell it to the consumer. The price at which the consumer will buy is the price of production. So let us call that P and the price at which the industrial capitalist will sell to the merchant is some intermediate price let us call that P 0. So now let us calculate the two prices and then see how the total surplus value which in this case is 110 gets divided or shared between these two fragments of capital. So let us first calculate P 0. What is P 0? P 0 is the price at which industrial capital will sell to merchant. What will be the price? This will be the price which will enable industrial capital to get 20 percent rate of return on its capital. Its capital is 500 and a 20 percent rate of return on that means 1.2 multiplied by 500 which is 600. So the price at which the industrial capital will sell to merchant capital is 600. What is the price of production? The price of production is the price at which the merchant will sell to the consumer. Now what is the price of production? The price of production is the price which gives the 20 percent rate of return. So the total capital involved here is 500 plus 50, 500 as industrial capital, 50 as commercial capital. The total capital must get a rate of return of 120 percent. So we multiply it by 1.2 and therefore what we get is 660. So the price at which the industrial the price at which merchant capital sells it to the consumer is 660. Now when merchant capital sells it at 660, what does he get? He gets back 600 which he returns to industrial capital and then on top of that he get 60. What is the 60 represent? Well his capital outlay was 50. Therefore a 20 percent rate of return on 50 gives him 50 plus 0.2 times 50 which is exactly 60. So the 60 implies a 20 percent rate of return on the capital invested by commercial capital. Now this 600 which seems to be an expense that merchant capital has to bear does not really figure in his calculation. One can think of industrial capital selling the commodity to merchant capital as a credit. This is known as commercial credit. Once the merchant has sold it to the consumer at this price 660 he just returns the 600 to the industrial capitalist. So this does not really figure as a bound that could be counted as a capital that was invested or laid out by commercial capital. Therefore we will just consider 50 units as the amount of commercial capital that has been laid out. So now we can see what has really happened. The total the consumer has paid 660 and the industrial capital gets 600. The industrial capital had laid out 500 as his capital. So the profit of the industrial capital is 100. The merchant capital had laid out 50. So the profit of the merchant capital is 10. The total amount of capital invested is 550, 500 from the from industrial capital and 50 from commercial capital. The cost, the price at which the consumers purchases it is 660. Therefore the total surplus value that is realized by the sale of the commodity is 110. 110 now in turn gets divided into two parts. 100 is realized by industrial capital as industrial profit, 10 is realized by commercial capital as commercial profit. So this is how the capitalist system divides up the total surplus value as industrial profit which is appropriated by industrial capital and commercial profit which is appropriated by commercial capital. Commercial capital gets a part of the surplus value because it has the essential role of helping realize the surplus value created by industrial capital. It is essential because without realizing the surplus value without converting the commodities into its monetary form the next cycle of the circuit of capital gets interrupted. That is why it gets a part of the surplus value as commercial profit. Next we are going to be trying to understand the two other fragments of surplus value interest and rent.


My name is Bhubekanan Giri, I am from Juna Akhara and earlier I was a senior software engineer. I approached from Indian Institute of Technology, Roorkee. And you joined the Akhara in 2016, seven years. I have come to you after, see I have, I have a complaint with you. Okay. A lot of people do.  And I really love you very much and I think that the most powerful person in this world. It's great, I think it's all fine, no? No, no, no. Oh, okay, okay.  But still, why you have not been able to arise the feeling of loving everyone? Oh, are you a Bengali by any chance? Yeah. Yeah, I knew it. This is a typical, the Bengalis will always have such questions. They think too much the Bengalis. Why there is, why there is... I don't have that power to... Have you got my question? Yeah, why am I not able to awaken that love in everyone? I don't have this power. Then why you have written surrendered to love? I'm requesting, doesn't mean I have the ability to awaken. Surrender to love is a statement and it is a statement born out of my own experience. It's not something I've read in a book. It's an experiential thing. What it means is surrendering to the antar guru, the antaratman, the source of truth, the antaratman, antar guru. And if a human being is bending to that truth, literally I mean bending, not going with the ahankar, refusing the ahankar, refusing bending, then that is called surrendering to love. Because the truth, the antar guru, the antaratman, is the source of what pure love is in this world. It doesn't mean that I have the power to awaken that even in one person. I experience it, I speak about it. If a person feels it in their heart, if it resonates, it can awaken something.  The greatest of spiritual masters had 10 people listening to them. Even if 40 people are listening to me, it's a big thing. Because what I'm saying is not easy. How is it easy to do that when you're living in a world where everyone is moving with the ego as a means of living? The ahankar is the way to live for almost the whole world. So when someone says surrender to love, it is a statement born out of an experience. And that's the statement.  Spirituality is not about changing the world. It's religion that is top down. It doesn't work with spirituality. If she today starts to surrender, she'll start to deepen in her love. That one next to her will also a little bit more deepen. And it spreads like that. There was once a guru, Indian woman, and she used to talk to these huge audiences. And she said, I can raise everybody's Kundalini. And she was speaking some mantras and everybody's Kundalini was rising. This is not spirituality. Spirituality is when each person goes towards their source and their soul. And there's nobody in this world who, or maybe there are people, but I'm not one of them, who can evoke that in the whole world. It's not possible. I don't have this power. So I'm afraid to disappoint you. But maybe you can start with yourself. My complaint was wrong. Oh, now there's another one. See. My complaint was due to lack of knowledge. Actually, I was expecting a lot from you. I was thinking that you are a kind of a person who will just go to the borders of Ukraine. And you will say, Putin stopped the war and all are able to know. I'm not. I'm not even able to evoke it in students of mine for 15 years. Where am I going to stop Putin? And I wouldn't want to stop him either. Why should I stop Putin?  But he's defending his country. Putin is defending his structures. And if you will give your message of love to army officers, so they will surrender to you. But I don't want to do that. I want people to be able to fight wars if needed. I believe that war is a means of achieving certain things in this world. You know Mahatma Gandhi, he wrote these amazing letters to Hitler. He was, he believed in Ahimsa. He wrote letters to Hitler, dear Hitler, this is not the way and you should do this and you should do that. And Sri Aurobindo contributed money to the British war fund. Even though he was fighting the British in India, he contributed money to the war fund. He said, you have to fight the guy and kill him. When the truth says kill, you kill. I'm not saying people have to kill other people. But war is sometimes required in our world, even today. Because certain people are not capable of being taught lessons otherwise. I feel both sides, I don't take sides in that war. I think Putin has his reasons as much as the other guy, Biden has his reasons. They are both fighting each other, defending their own interests. So I'm certainly not going to go there. And even if I did, I would definitely not succeed. I think you have overestimated me. I think that I must be focusing on your lectures. Then I should be putting question to you. Actually, I lack knowledge. I don't have the knowledge of love. Many people have this idea that a spiritual master is so powerful that they can change the whole world. But they don't understand the power of those people who are against such things. It's also powerful. The Rakshasas and the devas are equally powerful. Sometimes one side wins. Sometimes the other side wins. The Pandavas and the Kauravas are equally powerful. Where does Krishna stand? That side wins. Sometimes it takes centuries, millennia. And sometimes the wins are very small, but they have a big impact. You know? This idea that there is this spiritual master who is the most powerful in the world, that's just ideas in the head. It doesn't exist in reality. There is not even something called God. God is an invention of a human being. Be complex. Then at least you should write now, surrender to love and politics. Why you have written more love? Love is a very... But why should I tell people to surrender to politics? You know why? Mother, write that surrender to love and politics. Why and politics? Because you have said that if someone will be daemon, then you will also become daemon to him. It means that... I said that there are situations in life, or I am paraphrasing what I said, where war is required because there is no other means that will work. Which is why if you surrender to love, you yourself will not have to fight that war. That's what I am saying. You are really very good, excellent. I love you. You are right. And if you have any other question, you can always come. If you want to fight with the Bengalis and the Malayalis, they always fight with me. They love me and they fight with me. I am not going to put end politics, only love. Surrender to love, that's how it's going to be.