Truckers for Trump. As you might have heard, on Friday, a judge ordered Trump to pay $355 million for misrepresenting his wealth in applications for loans, applications for insurance, just generally business activities. $355 million. This is even the kind of cash that it is unlikely. Trump can come up with, particularly given that he's probably not as wealthy as he claims he is. This all a consequence of the fact that he is accused and found guilty of committing fraud, which involved basically lying about the value of properties to get when it came time to get mortgages and a variety of different loans. The tricky part about this ruling is that nobody lost any money around this. So the reality is it's very, very probable that Trump and his business associates in various levels lied about the value of properties and maybe lied extravagantly about the value of these properties when they went to get loans and when they went to buy insurance and things like that. That is probably all true. And that is indeed finding a fact that as Trump appeals this case, he can't appeal that finding a fact. What Trump will appeal is the $355 million that size of a penalty. And indeed, that penalty seems ridiculously high, even to me, not a Trump fan. But I worry about the clear anti-business signal that this is sending. I mean, it wasn't just to find a $355 million. There's an interest on top of that. It's probably closer to $450.  But $355 million clearly is punitive. And it's punitive partially because Trump denied it all. And even after it was found guilty, it showed no remorse and then continued to pretend that nothing had happened, that everybody's the same. And then it treated the judge pretty harshly, harassed him and made fun of him and so on. And I think that the judge is taking it out on Trump. I think the $355 million is probably a dramatic exaggeration. I don't know what cases like this go for. That is what kind of penalties are excluded. But this seems to me, based on everything I know about corporate law and these kind of cases, exaggerated and seems to be kind of vindictive on the part of the judge. Again, no question, I think. And I think from the evidence and the judge certainty that Trump did commit fraud, but in other words, lied. Fraud is lying in a business transaction. And there was fraud. So then the question is, given that nobody lost any money, how do you determine penalties? The penalty should be given that nobody lost money. The penalty should have been significantly lower than this. It's still right, I think, to penalize for fraud, to prosecute for fraud, even though nobody's lost money, partially to deter such behavior in the person being accused and to deter such behavior in other businesses. So verdict is right. Penalty probably way too large. I wouldn't be surprised if, on appeal, they reduce the penalty or they send it back to the court to reconsider the penalty. And this could go to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has, in the past, taken cases about kind of exorbitant penalties that judges and juries have afflicted. They don't always take cases like that. So it depends on how ridiculous they think this is. But with regard to the fraud, again, I'm in no position to question the judge who has reviewed all the evidence. You have not.  He didn't commit fraud. How do I know? Because on MAGA News, it says he didn't commit fraud. So he must not have committed fraud. I still, on finding the facts, mostly think the justice system does a good job. And if it doesn't do a good job or if you doubt this, at the very most you can say is I don't know. But you certainly can't say he didn't commit fraud because the reality is you don't know. You don't know. All right. Let's see. Yeah, so with regard to this, there are truckers who are saying now, these are pro Trump truckers, who are saying that they're not driving to New York City. They're boycotting New York City. And because they are boycotting New York City, they are not going to drive in. And because they view New York City as evil, bad, because of this $350 million penalty to Trump. So this is just, again, truckers, just like Scott, who don't know what they're talking about, who don't know the law. I mean, you can disagree with $350 million and still acknowledge that, at best, you don't know.  Fraud, by the way, does not require that somebody lose money. Fraud doesn't require that you don't pay your loans. Fraud requires, or proof of fraud, requires and only requires that you lie. And clearly, there was a lot of lying going on. So yeah, truckers out there protesting. Hard to tell how big this is. It's hard to tell how significant it is.  Of course, this isn't the only protest others are saying. They're never going to go visit New York. They're not going to do business with New York. So they're going to be a bunch of different ways in which people express their frustration and express the fact that they think this is a huge injustice and therefore Trump should not be prosecuted and should have been found not guilty because they're all experts in the law and they understand the law thoroughly. All right, let's see. Truckers, of course, have every right to do what they're doing. You have every right to boycott New York if you want to boycott New York. Go for it. I think it makes a lot more sense to boycott Texas. Given Texas' Byzantine dark ages abortion laws, it would make a lot more sense to boycott Texas and it makes sense to boycott New York, but it doesn't make sense to boycott either one of those states at this point. But certainly I would consider what Texas laws about abortion are 1,000 times worse than whatever Trump is facing in terms of this foreign case.


Tower of God. The anime based on CU's action dark fantasy web manua tells the story of the 25th BAM, a boy who has spent most of his life beneath a large and mysterious tower with only his friend Rachel to keep him company. When Rachel decides to enter the tower, BAM is distraught and goes after her, opening the door to the tower himself. Inside he will be faced with grueling tests and a whole cast of characters that are all doing whatever it takes to reach the top. To understand this series, we need to deconstruct the tower, if you will, a vast and mysterious structure that is sealed and hosts a variety of unique environments. Spread throughout is an element known as shinsu or divine water which has magical properties and allows users to wield and utilize it for various things. The tower has different layers. The top ones typically are associated with the richer folk, nobles of higher status. To ascend the tower, an individual must pass grueling tests of strength and wit against many competitors. Regulars refers to people that are chosen to participate in climbing the tower. You see everyone's motivations are different, but greater fortunes are to be found for those that dare venture forward, and if they happen to reach the top, they are known formally as rankers, powerful individuals who administer the tower's lower levels. But what lies at the very top? Well, that is not for me to spoil in this video, but I can tell you that the ten great families sit there, with their chief leader, King Jihad, forming a governing body of sorts. It is interesting to note that each floor in the tower is gigantic in scale, with their own culture, language, and government. Some of those people are living in complete isolation, unaware of what lies above and beyond. Our story begins with Bam, a wholesome young boy who doesn't really remember much. He knows of his life before the story, living beneath the tower in darkness. His sole companion, a blonde hopeful girl named Rachel. She aspires to climb the tower and see the stars above, until one day, she actually goes through with it, disappearing and leaving poor Bam behind, telling him to forget about her. Bam, not knowing anything but her, also finds himself inside the tower's first levels, alongside one of the caretakers, Hedon, who informs him that in order to fulfill his desire of climbing it and finding the girl, he must pass a series of tests from each floor. It is through this exposition that we really do get a sense of wonder and world building. CU is able to take a concept and expand it to interesting heights. Along the way, we meet several other characters who befriend Bam through unusual circumstances. Most of the tests require physical combat, military-like strategy, and shinzu-related requirements. You've got the character of Kun Agero Agnes, and Rak Reithrazer, two of the main supporting cast, who form an alliance with Bam after witnessing an item the young boy carries. Though unclear at first as the story progresses, they're bonds of friendship deepen as they get further into the exams and the ascension. At 13 episodes, the Tower of God anime does a good job of introducing us to a myriad of characters, worlds, and ideas about the desire for exploration, aiming towards a bigger goal, the struggles with obtaining wealth, fame, and power. Yet some characters are not here for that. Bam is searching for his friend.  Rak is proving himself to be the strongest, and some are dealing with betrayals like Kun with the exile of his family. An aspect of this series that intrigued me is the hierarchy and political play that is at stake. You see, nobles and the princesses of jihad and the kings and all that stuff, and many other factors, I should say, aren't going to sit idly by as regular individuals ascend this tower. Sure, I could sit here and tell you how jam-packed some of the episodes are with information and exposition, and yes, I can admit that some of it required a second viewing for yours truly, but honestly, all the military-esque terminology about battled positions, the scheming, the betrayals, by people of power, and those seeking said power really do bring to life this world that is unlike most stories. Unfortunately, nowadays, most new anime are greenlit to just 12 or 13 episodes, so all these companies are stuffing each season with as much bait, eye candy, and information as possible to win over audiences and secure more episodes down the line. Hopefully, Tower of God does get that second go-around because there is a lot more story to tell. At the core of the story, however, is Bam and Rachel. Their relationship defines the story. One boy who will do anything to be reunited with the only person he has known throughout his life, and the other who has abandoned her previous life in pursuit of something greater. There are many twists and turns to be found in this series, but at the center of it all, I can't help but be fascinated by Bam's strong will and determination. Some might call it naive, but I find it inspirational. Whether it is for a foolish endeavor is up to you to decide, but I think we could all find something to be inspired in this young man's quest. As Bam's journey through different stages continues, we go along for the ride, learning about this world and its many rules. We find out about the different people and creatures involved and how they are all aiming for the top of the tower for various reasons. How this one desire and quest for knowledge, power, and understanding can drive people mad at whatever cost. The supporting cast is quite diverse. Some of the characters, unfortunately, can be a little underdeveloped, but they're never boring to look at. There is also a lot of hidden foul play involved, with tournaments, fighting, testing, all that stuff. We aren't given a lot of answers and are expected to figure things out alongside our protagonists, something I'm always fond of. In a world with constant spoon-fed information, I enjoy the mystery and uncertainty of the plot. The art style and fluidity of the animation is to be commended. Telecom Animation film brought their A-game to make this anime possible. The landscapes, character designs, and architecture of the story are absolutely beautiful. The musical production, writing, and story are great as well. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see Manhwa being promoted worldwide. Kudos to Crunchyroll for helping in the production of this adaptation. Spreading the word of talented Korean writers is a true welcomed sight. Tower of God has a lot to offer to fans of battle shounen series. With rich, detailed worldbuilding, and interesting character backstories, the series dives headfirst into a huge world of uncertainty. Yet, the only certainty is the tower and its desire for people to climb it.


Whether you're into imports, classics, or off-roading, there's a common bond that all automotive enthusiast families understand. Yet when it comes to the aftermarket companies and parts that support them, we tend to stand our lane, so to speak. Normally, that's for a good reason, but a couple years ago, Cobb decided to expand our horizons and take on a new challenge in the form of the second-generation Ford Raptor. Luckily, it wasn't a total departure from our typical tuning process as the truck is equipped with a 3.5-liter twin-turbo EcoBoost engine and we have plenty of experience with the modern factory turbo platforms. Anytime we try a new ground, it can be a bit daunting, but developing support for the Raptor was far more energizing and exciting than intimidating. Our reverse engineering, software, and hard parts teams all worked in unison to break down the strengths and weaknesses of the truck's powertrain to find the best solutions for blending what Cobb does best with an already impressive vehicle that makes it that much better and potentially spread that development to other EcoBoost F-150s down the line.


It's okay Alex, we love you. Hashtag the outtakes of Alex's vlog. Hi guys, welcome to today's vlog. Today we are going to Disney Springs and having sushi at Morimoto. Yes, Spencer will be very happy and proud of me because I'm most likely gonna get some sushi tonight. Wanted to do a little outfit of the day because I actually kind of like it. It's like casual slash looking put together. So I'm wearing this top, it's Calvin Klein. I will link it down below if you guys are interested. Wearing this choker, my Alex and Annie bracelets. And I'm actually wearing black leggings with this. I thought that it looked really nice and everything with some black flats. So that's kind of like the more casual look and I also put the cross body strap on my little Louis favorite. So that's gonna be my outfit. Maybe I'll get a picture tonight, I don't know. But we're going to Morimoto with my Aunt Wendy, her boyfriend Charlie and I know. I can't, I still can't get over it. Okay, so we made it to Disney Springs and we're gonna meet up with Charlie and Wendy. Here's Sherry. Hi, everyone. And Valerie's back there. Apparently Wendy and Charlie are having a drink at Splitsville. So we're just meeting up with them. We're admiring Wendy's watch here that she just got. Oh, camera's not. It has links up in the, oh my gosh, wait, hold on. It's a child size section. Look at that. And then this is a really cute little bracelet that Charlie got her because that's where the coordinates where they met. So a minute latitude and longitude. Yeah, but that's the cute watch that she has. The phone that they have is hers side me. That's such cute watch. It's a very nice watch. Oh, you have a present from us. Or maybe it's from Valerie, I don't know. Well, it was my idea. It was Valerie's idea. Oh, I love it. They have a magnifying glass. Yes, exactly. It's the 30th anniversary of Hollywood Studios. Yes, yes, yes. It's a Pandora, it's a Pandora charm. Yes, I love it. Capturing moments. Oh, there it is. I actually took a picture of the... Yeah, so here's Wendy and here's Charlie. All right, so look at how cute these buttons are. I see some future stocking stuffers. Look at how cute. Okay guys, I broke down. I'm getting this bracelet. I love it so much. And we're eating here tonight. The inside is awesome. I vlogged like one other time in here when we went to go take a peek. But it is really, really cool. Look at how cool this is. Such a pretty restaurant. All right, so we are probably going to grab a drink at the bar before we head to our reservation because there's a little bit of a wait for our reservation. It's closer to the time that we reserved our table for. So, okay, so apparently Wendy and Charlie like got me a present. You didn't have to, guys. No, we didn't have to. All right, you can flip the screen down if you want. There you go. All right. Okay, well, this is priceless, but I got a Wellston bracelet. I know it's okay. We have it in our hearts. Loan my Wellston bracelet. Thanks, Charlie.  But unfortunately, we didn't capture that, but it's still pretty priceless. I know. That's great. So we had this whole table full of like sushi and stuff. I got the orange chicken with some broccoli. Look at all of this. Oh my goodness. Sorry if I'm annoying on the camera. Wendy, what did you get?  Charlie and Valerie are splitting this. I think it's duck. Is it duck? Look at that. There's edamame, more sushi, sushi. Look how pretty. Sherry, what did you end up getting? Hot and sour soup. Hot and sour soup? Lettuce wrap. That's perfect for your diet. Look at that meat. Oh, Valerie's dropping it over there. We got some dessert. Valerie got some green tea ice cream. We also got this trio, a different. No, no, take out of my ice cream. No, no. This is great footage. Thanks, Charlie. We're all gonna like probably try a little bit of it and Valerie's taking photos over there. We're at Amorette's and we got our famous Wendy desserts. These are some of her faves. We tried this one already because I forgot. And then also I got a brownie because those are the best, so I might have a little bit tonight, but I'll just save the rest. Valerie's laughing this seriously. The next day. Okay, it's the next day and I'm starting this part of the vlog. Here's Francie. I know she was eager to get in. Hi, Cameron, I vlog, so there's Cameron. Okay, well, we'll come back to them a little later. Here's Sherry. Sherry, these people. Sherry, okay, anyway, here's Sherry. She's talking to Cameron and Francie about losing weight and stuff. There's Brock, there's Spencer.  Spencer's grabbing his tools to fix our shower. And here's Steph. Good morning. Yes. All right guys, we finally made it to Epcot and we've already taken our family photos here. Everyone's kind of scattering because we're gonna get birthday buttons and first time buttons. Francie convinced me to wear a pair of ears so I am wearing these. I look bald, but my hair's in a ponytail.  It makes me look bald, especially with the ears, so. Anyway, so we are just going to guest relations. Of course, Valerie needs to go to the bathroom, so, you know. Oh, here's Wendy. That's what I need. Okay, so Charlie got his first visit button. Brock has his happy birthday button. Okay, so we just got off the land ride and now we're cutting through the butterfly garden. Oh man, it's a little warm. It's not as warm as I thought it would be, but still, it's a pretty hot day today. We're getting margaritas now. It's basically Cameron, Francie, Spencer, and Charlie and Wendy here. Sorry, I showed Spencer's chest, but they're Spencer. All right, we're gonna cheers it. Cheers it. Cheers it. Woo-hoo! Okay. Oh wait, do a boomerang. Mention me. Okay, ready? So I can cheer it. So everyone got meals. I'll show kind of what our table got us young people. So I got chicken tenders with nachos. Ooh, what's that Cameron? It's like chicken, rice, cilantro. Oh my gosh, sauce. A whole bunch of stuff. Francie got loaded nachos over there. And I think that's the same thing Spencer got. It looks similar. We're done in Mexico and we went to Norway. It's very Instagramable, sharey. But we're in Italy now. We're going to this bar that Wendy likes. Sorry if you can hear the wind. It's a little bit windy, but it feels great. Mother's Day 2019 is what she just said. Ooh.  We're all here at the bar. A little bar-ish. Oh whoa, close up on sharey. Close up of Spencer, woo! Anyway, we're gonna get a quick drink and probably cheese plate. I need to flip this around. Oh my God, you guys. Whoa, way too close, way too close. It's still a fall, but we normally like only eat blogs, especially when we come to Epcot. It's like eating and drinking. So I hope this is a kind of entertaining. All right, so I don't know if I've updated the vlog, but we're eating a meat and cheese plate. I got some meat with some bread and like fruit chomping. And then Valerie and sharey are doing something over here. Our food and drinks came. We got like three big clatters with some drinks. So I really wish I got the thing that Steph got because like her drink looks really good over there. Material for your vlog, so. Yeah. What are you doing, Wendy? I'm eating.  She got a pearl oyster, so. Now Charlie picked it out. Does he know that he's picking it out yet? Yeah, he's not yet. Okay. Charlie gotta get over here. You have to pick out the oyster. You need to pick out the oyster. You're gonna pick the oyster out. On my hand. Okay. Yeah, that's good. The one that's upright. What's the gold plate? I'm number 18, so we'll go from there. Got a little bromance going on over here. Just kidding. Bonding? Bonding? Yeah, yeah. Zoom effect. Yes!  Wendy, what were you telling the vlog here? She said that we need better vlog content, so. She's the only one that understands. I spent $18. She spent $18 on vlog material in my niece. She spent $18, and we're number 18. But I wanted the pearl oyster. $18 for the vlog. The oyster on this side, not on that side. Okay. They keep pulling from that side. Yeah. I don't want that side. So we'll see how lucky I am. May I have it? $18? Thank you. May I have it? One more time for you. Which one do you like to pick? That's one right there. Keep going back. No, back. Over. There you go. I'm ready to open up this oyster. I am ready. Do you have anything to win in Japanese too? Sure. How do we say? I have no idea. You have no idea? Open it up. So we say 3. 3. 2. 2. 1. 1. We do it in Japanese. 2. 1. 1. I'm not good at jokes. Come on, Joe.  We don't want to. Uh oh. We want to do a big one. Big one? Right. Yeah. Congratulations. No, let's measure this one. There it is. So we'll measure it. 6.5. This is average. 6.3. Go to 7. 7. Woo. One smile. There we go. Yay. We're getting this pearl. So that's the pearl that Wendy is getting. And that's setting. We're going to the next country. We've all had a bit to drink. Just a little. We have this going on right now. Oh my God. Now Wendy's gonna make out. Oh my God, now she's making out. Man, this is good content. Thanks. I can always count on you. Just thought I would update the log. We are in Morocco and I got a... Yeah, pretty much. Thanks, Cameron. That's the update. The update. I forgot what this is even called. Bought a cranberry. Thank you. He's just, you know what, he can't take over. What's that? It was like... She bought the... The demonic Elmos in New York. Okay. Okay, so there's a thing on... Is it a vine? Or is it a vine? It was a vine and it was like... An almost world. I don't know if you've ever heard that song, but like, and it zoomed in on that Elmo character in New York, because they're not normal Elmos. They were like, almost scary. And so it was just like, Izzy went on. So I was singing it, and she just did that.  She put her hand up. Wait, Charlie, can you do that again? I didn't get it the first round. Go back in. Go back in. Go back in. They're reacting. That's too much. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you. Okay, cut. About what they just said. Because this is for memories. You can see it, but if you follow me on Instagram, you will be able to, oh God, Valerie starting the dance. That's in this picture of Sherry, which you can't see, because please follow me on Instagram. I'm begging you. Caption this picture of Sherry. I'll post it on the screen, and comment down below. Okay, this is recorded this time. So we're in Norway right now. It's okay, Alex. We love you. Hashtag the outtakes of Alex's vlog. We love her. We love you, Alex. Just check the one on you, you'll be fine. It's okay, you're good. All right, we can cut and go to Japan. Let's focus. Okay, that car is messed up. Yes, it is. All cute. I can't, I can't do it. So we're continuing our adventure at City Walk. Don't know why, I'm just kidding. We're gonna oh, and knock your run over, because cameras gonna take one for the team. By the way, Rose, six, five, six, six.  So, here's Frank, see here. And we're gonna probably grab something. We're probably gonna grab something to eat. That's probably what we're gonna do. Yep. I've been here like five years. So, stay tuned to see if I know where we eat. Okay, so, like, legit killed me. So I'm not going to do anything else with the four of us. Francie, let's do an interview. Okay, oh, so what was your favorite part of today? This mask. Okay. Okay, you still have to put on. Hey, Francie, Francie. Again, camera. We're gonna have a little dinner. Yep, there's Cameron. There's Spencer. Hungry at all. Hey, Francie, tell the vlog what we're doing now. We're getting Zudu doughnuts. I'm so excited. That was right in my mouth. We're in this line, and it's actually shorter than normal, but I'm gonna get a dozen just because we waited in this line. The next day. Perry's here. Oh, why? I feel it. Yep, pretty bad. Yep. All right, I've been a failure at vlogging, but Spencer made his mac and cheese. Everyone loved the guacamole he made. We had a veggie tray, yeah. Hot dogs, hamburgers, chips, dip. Yeah, okay, and now we're gonna sing Happy Birthday to Brock. This is Happy Birthday, Brock, 50, 50, 50, with the 50s candles. That's cute. Don't let me forget what we got. We got ice cream. Sometimes we forget that. And here's the people. Well, Cameron and Francie are leaving pretty soon, and then the rest of people are in there, which you'll see in a minute. One, two, three. Happy birthday to you, dear Brock. Happy birthday to you. Make a wish. Hmm, well, it took 50 years to get to this point. I'm not gonna be happy. Thank you pretty much. What is this? It's flowers. Flowers for you, I don't know, but I'm scared. Those are yours, babe. That was a guy that you fell into last night. It's not for me. Sherry, I hope you have a wonderful Mother's Day. Your daughter is beautiful. It was great to meet all of you during our meeting at Sage Park. Oh my God, I can't believe that the Sage Park people set us flowers. It has to be residents. When? That's prospective customers, you say. Real men. You get flowers. I'm very impressed with this. Oh my God, we never had so many live flowers in our house before. This is almost like joining in like a force show. We haven't been there. What a cutie pie. I'm glad you're ready to do this. Oh, look how pretty. I know, look at that. Look at how pretty those are. Wow, how fast we can kill those. Wow, we got flowers from Spimps. I know. We got flowers from Deagon. I know. And now we got flowers from them. They're all consistent living. All right, I'm just going to update the vlog real quick. We have come to Universal City Walk here. We're all eating, I'm not really eating anything because I'm not hungry, but everyone is just sharing this big plate of nachos. Some people got some margaritas. I'm just having some water. And then I think a little bit later, we're going to dive into these. Is this upside down? I don't want to tip it over. But anyway, we got some truffles and we also got some macaroons. So that's what I'm going to have for dessert a little later. And here they are. The truffles. Look how cute they are. So that my friends is going to be it for this vlog. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I love these family weekends. They're probably my favorite ever. If you guys enjoyed this, make sure to give it a big thumbs up. Don't forget to subscribe to my channel. And I'm sorry if it's not edited like with a bunch of jump cuts, but I like to keep a lot of these videos for memories. But anyway, I will see you guys in my next video. Bye.


Right guys, what's going on welcome back to get another reaction video today? I am going to watch I say a Thomas and I have absolutely no fucking clue who he is and I didn't honestly Believe that any player was gonna come on this Apparent top 30 list and that I wouldn't actually recognize the name, but this is a name that I don't recognize so there we go I Say I say I say a Geez, I wouldn't even I hate to think how badly I tried to pronounce that name either way Isaiah Thomas is apparently the 28th Best NBA player of all time, and I'm gonna be reacting to him today But not for long hopefully Zeke's legacy Zeke Have no idea what that's about Zeke's legacy is for somewhat tarnished over the years By the opinions of his peers and the off off the court issues he brought on himself while in the Knicks front office However, there's no denying what he did on the court as a leader on Two of the most hated championship teams in the NBA history The bad boys wreaked havoc on the NBA's holy trinity of Magic Johnson Larry bird and Michael Jordan And most of the damage that was done was on the orders of the six foot one point God Not point guard point God Detroit won back-to-back championships in the middle of what many call the toughest era of NBA basketball made Jordan scratch and claw for years Before he finally got the balls over the lump. Geez. I didn't know that I did not know that so that's in the late 80s Thomas was a diabolical general who was able to score whenever he wanted and put his team on the On his back to will them to victory. He's still in the top five and assists He averaged 13.9 assists per game. What? 13.9 assists per game in 85 and still gets under MJ skin Zeke Still not completely sure why he's called Zeke Not being on the dream team is the biggest snub ever and the dream team was the 1992 Olympic dream team is that right? No exaggeration, but he rightfully earned a spot on the NBA 75 team And I have absolutely no idea what that means, but regardless of that guys. I come into this Absolutely, you know, pretty much fresh The last NBA season I watched was 2006 and with that in mind. Let's go to YouTube and look up Well, it's not Zeke, but it is Isaiah Isaiah Isaiah Thomas highlights. Let's go. Well, here we go first video.  I'm gonna lie. That's that's extremely good quality That's way too good quality to be in the 80s Not quite sure how they've done that.  I'm really sorry guys. I am really really really really really sorry guys. I've just absolutely done them dirty here It's not Isaiah Thomas.  He's six foot one. Let's be fair It's that again. Shaq is that Shaquille O'Neal? If I knew that You know if I knew All right. Well, I suppose I'm impressed In an NBA game You know not only going from the logo but going from the Well from behind the half. I mean, that's that's Well, you've got to be impressed with that, right? Was I impressed? No, let's watch some more Grains it. No, I tell you what I'm impressed Thanks guys, and I'll see you in the next one


Good morning, everyone. It's really great to be here in this beautiful place. You can actually see the Golden Gate from the stage. Well, not from here, but it's amazing. It's really great. OK, so half a lifetime ago in 2005, I went to this small gathering of enthusiasts of some obscure web project in Frankfurt. The event was called Wikimania, if I remember correctly. And at that conference, I got to listen to a keynote speaker who apparently invented the wiki. And when he talked about this invention, he talked quite a bit about how people in the technical space collaborate and how engineering works. So later on in my career, when I learned more about design patterns and about the development process, his name came up time and time again. And more recently, when I looked into the topic of technical depth and I researched how this term came to be, there he was again, right? That a guy again. So please welcome Ward Cunningham. Well, thank you, Daniel. I did think that on my gravestone, they would put that I coined the term wiki. And now I think it's actually going to say I coined the term technical debt. Technical debt is much more of interest to every corporation in the world. They seem to have a lot of it. I was kind of remembering how it is I turned out to be here. I don't travel much anymore. But I had an invitation sitting in my inbox when this kind of election happened. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I have to do something. And then I looked at my inbox and there was the invitation. I thought, well, I'll come down and talk to you folks because you're doing stuff. And it's really important. Now, it also took me two days to get here from Portland through ice and snow and a lot of technology. And now let's just see if I can get logged in here. That would be the, ah, it says no. Ah, great. Now, are we on? Yeah, great. So let's just begin at the beginning. So in a little bit of conversation by email and so forth, the question is what do I really have to talk about? And it turns out technical debt is a lot of that. And technical debt, at least as I coined the term, is misunderstood greatly. And I will address that at some point. But I think a bigger thing, and this is something that I notice broadly, is that it's hard to survive success.  And as something you work on becomes successful, you just feel that power vanishing. And it's discouraging. So I don't know if this really applies here, but I do know that the Wikimedia Foundation is evolving. And so I thought I had to tell some stories about what I've seen in my career. I was a consultant for a number of years and had an opportunity to step into lots of different places and work with lots of amazing technical teams. In fact, I wanted to just mention one was a fellow had made a lot of money and had the ability to hire a team of people to work on his stereo. And this isn't actually his stereo, but it could have been. It was a very, very complicated stereo. By stereo, hi-fi, I think we call it a media center now. And he hired a lot of technical people to work on this. And if you think about it, this is a dream job. Everybody wants to work on the best media center ever. And their first day, they get in there and find out just how complicated this thing has become. And then every day after that. And it took me a while to realize this. And I can't even guarantee it's true, but I believe it's true because it explains a lot of kind of strange behavior that every day they came to work and they said, oh my god, today I'm going to get fired. I have my dream job and I'm going to get fired. And this idea of being productive, being creative in the presence of fear is something that I think is deeper. It's a quirk of being an expert of something that very few people understand. So I'm going to kind of hit a number of things. In fact, here's my one slide. So I got one slide. This is a condensation of a few things that I said I could talk about. And they said, well, that'd be a good abstract. And I say this is my one slide, but I will warn you that I have 40 builds. And it's going to take a while. And the reason I'm going to leave this up there is because this is a progression of thought that will, I hope, lead to a lot of questions. And it would suggest we'll take 10 minutes and then we'll have 50 minutes of questions or something like that. And I've practiced this a few times and it's more than 10 minutes, but let's just jump into it. Probably the most important thing, I think, for working on Wikipedia is that it is so successful that there's no place to look for guidance. Eiffel Tower is pretty successful, too. And there isn't an Eiffel Tower 2.0. There's no place to look. And so here I put the Wikipedia up on top of the Eiffel Tower's little meatball up there.  So now that doesn't mean that people don't come with a lot of suggestions. Oh, it ought to do this or it ought to do that or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.  So that's pretty weird. And here's my wiki sticking off the side. At least I'm off the ground. And I had a five-year jump start as far as wikis go. And we managed to assemble up 36,000 pages. And it was an advocacy side. It was about changing the way people talk about computer programming. And in fact, we succeeded. In fact, we succeeded to the point where it actually became kind of useless. There wasn't how we're gonna talk about computer programming 2.0 to do. So it's kind of lived its life. Yet a couple years ago it went read-only and two people complained. This year it actually went offline because my one little server couldn't handle the scrapes that were going on.  You know, it was on Hacker News that a wiki is down. So we got that back up. But it's, the funny thing is that I share some experience that you folks share. In fact, I was at an early conference and I met Jimmy Wales and we decided to go have lunch and, you know, six or eight tag alongs. And this is the first time I'd actually met him and we're telling stories. And they're all the same stories. And I say, I don't even know this guy. And he's not like me, we're very different people, but we're telling the same stories. And I say, oh, well, of course, we both ran wikis, right?  They said, well, first of all, it's impossible. And then the fact that it's there and they're looking it up, stuff on it themselves, you know, that there's something going on. Now, the other thing I wanted to mention is it would be irresponsible to have something as successful as Wikipedia without an organization behind it.  And so it's a really important thing that there's this encyclopedia and all the other projects. But if I say encyclopedia, I mean encyclopedia and the other projects. And then there's this organization. But organizations are a weird thing in their own right. They're like alive and if you're alive, you just don't wanna be dead. So there's this preservation attitude and it's easy to get confused if you think of them the same thing because they're not. So I'll poke at that a little bit as we go on. But kind of working our way through what's going on here, the thing that is the fabulous accomplishment of my Wiki and your Wiki is that it's a place where you can be creative. You can see stuff happen there that is so far beyond what you imagined would happen that you can't help be excited.  Well, of course you don't have that sort of power. You have very little influence over how Wiki works. And as a double E, so I think of everything in terms of fields, but the one that helps me is to think of it as like waves, ocean waves, think of the ocean waves are a thing, but they're not really a thing, it's just water and understanding standing waves. What's making them stand there? How does that work? And you have this enclosure, maybe some sort of vessel or as a water skier at one point and I remember water skiing in a lake that was in a reservoir so it had stone walls and you do one trip around that lake and it turns into a sea of standing waves because the energy has no place to go and you can't ski there a second time around. It was just really amazing. Whereas this other place I skied, had reeds and shallow water and stuff like that and the waves would go in there and disappear. So I think of a Wiki is kind of like those stone walls. They're there to hold the water, but the water's gonna do what it's gonna do. And that is, now if you really completely understand water, which most people don't, maybe you can guess what it's gonna do, but if you really, really understand people, you could guess what they're gonna do too and you'd be wrong. But here's a cool thing about waves that you throw a rock in the pond and waves go and if you track one of those little crests, it travels at a speed, but if you track that group of crests, it travels at half that speed. You can have the same thing going at two different velocity, factor two in fact, almost exactly. And so this is a little picture of a wave at different frames in time and that's just how weird water is. Just imagine people. So, you can't, I mean, we have a lot of responsibility to make sure the system is healthy and sustainable in all this, but it's gonna be what it's gonna be. Now, as we start talking about the system, I say, well, how can we make 10,000 great decisions and then just end up with a mess? And what do I mess, of course, is a technical term here that means bigger than you can understand. And so here's another little mess. That's a gas turbine engine made by Siemens. That was the most complicated picture I could find that probably worked. And if you hired on to work on that thing and you wanted to move one bolt, you're one centimeter, you would face tremendous amount of review and so forth and people would tell you, you don't know anything about bolts, let alone gas turbine engines. And you could call that a mess, but it isn't a mess. It's some of the finest engineering in the world. So this is, when you work on something that's big, this is just what it's like. So now I wanna go through step by step and I hope you can read that. I'll read them for you. We're gonna stack up some bricks here. And this is where I'm gonna get all agile on your extreme programming. I think one of the things that we realized when computing was done on a computer on your desk with screens up there on your desk, which wasn't when I'd be in, when I'd get you punched cards and sorted them in a deck. But we could work together. We could work together because you and I could be sitting at the same computer pointing at the screen and talk about what just happened there. And when we have a conversation about what's going on in the computer, there's really three participants, you and I and the computer. And we learn a lot about what the computer wants to do together. So that's important. Now work together, the conversation, so much invention is in the air between us. You can't even remember who thought of it first. So what happens when you do that is the next brick there says a quality consensus. And if we wanna have good decisions, we have to understand what good means. Good is a hard thing to nail down in computer programming. And I know that because I read blog posts that are crazy what they think good is.  And how are we gonna get something to be good enough? What's, and this is not just spaces versus tabs. This is how you name variables, what the metaphor is behind those variables. What is the thing we're even working on today and why is it more important than the thing we could be working on? All of that consensus, if you don't agree, then you end up tugging against you there and you're not working together. So you see work together, quality consensus is something that you get from working together and it lets you work together better. So they're related. So here I'm gonna stack another one on here. I call adaptable priorities. And having a priority one is nice because then you know what to work on. But tomorrow it could be priority three because there's another one. The idea that how do you do your work when what's important keeps changing? How do you know what's important and so forth? But you can do that if you have this sense of how you do your work.  You have to learn it again the next day. You could actually learn a different thing as long as there's this sea of practices that you know how to do. So the quality consensus and all that, it's what you do. And then what you do it to can change moment to moment. Now in that world where you're working on two or three different things, only one at a time, but two or three different things, it's hard to have a sense of progress. How do you know that you're actually accomplishing anything? And that is even harder, especially if you're working on really hard things. That sense of progress, well, you know again, the stack of things underneath answers that question. You know if you and I are working on something and we finish at the end of the day, we say well what did we accomplish today? You know, well we did this and that failed. We did this other thing in that failed. So there's two things that we learned today that don't work, you know. But there's a sense of covering ground and it's hard to know that yourself if you're always working on the most important thing and it isn't getting done, you think you're failing. But if you're working and you can have a conversation about how it's going, you know, because a lot of thought happened through the day and to recognize that thought gives you a sense of progress. And when we talk about XP and that, you know, and especially Agil, it turned into a management thing. You know, it's more about measuring progress and it does a lousy job. But if you have a team of people and you say are we making any progress at all, the answer I think almost always is yes. So maintaining that sense of progress is important. Finally, I think this is finally, I think there might be one more, accumulate technique. In other words, it's okay to spend half your day figuring out how to be more effective in the other half of your day. Because it's only if you do that does the rate of progress speed up. You have to use the computer to make your work better. Don't do today's work the way you did yesterday's work. Find a better way to do today's work and share that experience. Now, if you're working together with other people, don't make it the same person all the time. You know, y'all be working with somebody I haven't worked with before and I'll do something. I'll say, hey, wow, how did you do that? Can we stop and talk about how I did? Or they'll do more likely they do something. I say, how did you do that? And this conversation about how to get work done is really important.  Oops, and more, you know, I sort of wear these black tags so I get lots of pictures taken. I hold my hands up here to get lots of pictures taken. But the accumulation of technique is the thing that happens that makes progress go on indefinitely. You can make progress indefinitely.  In other words, for all kinds of technical reasons, sometimes political, sometimes you made promises, sometimes you just need to be done, you know, for a month and beyond to something else. You get to this point where you have to say, this is good enough. This is good enough. If I come back to it a year from now, I'll be able to look at it and tell what I was thinking. And you know you could make it better, but this is, I call it acceptable debt, to distinguish it from technical debt.  That's that, some people call that technical debt. I call that foolishness. That's like thinking you don't have to pay back your credit card, right?   You know, what's with that, right? So acceptable debt means I'm making a technical decision that this code that we've been working on together is good enough to rest for a while and we'll be able to pick it up and do good work later when we know more about what that good work needs to be. And so that is the technical debt that is good debt because it's built on accumulated technique so that you know how to do it. You know how to leave it in a good position. There's a sense of progress and you know when you're stopping, you know when you're starting again because you can feel it moving or not moving and that means you're still in control of your debt. You're in control of what's going on. I'm going pretty long on this thing but this is the essence of what I taught people to do and it's all about programming. People who don't program simply can't understand this and I don't know why they write books about Agile when they can't understand this simple thing but they do and if somebody's beaten you with an Agile book, you just tell them, look, Warren himself told me that this is what's important so keep that in mind. Now one thing that comes down to this is like I said, you and I are programming that third thing is the computer and we talk computer to it and talking computer is something you really need to know. You need to know how to talk its language because it's not going to talk your language yet and I call that reading all the code and there was a point where I worked on a media Wiki site. We had 20 million pages in media Wiki and I learned a lot of PHP. I knew I'd done one PHP project before that but this was big and I want to talk about how I felt comfortable with media Wiki and also some crazy stuff we did. One of the most crazy things we did is we programmed in Ruby. Ruby was a new thing then and we were going to be hip even though we were working on PHP, we put a little Ruby on top there and then anytime we did something new we'd just do it in Ruby and wedge that into this big body of PHP code. So here's a couple more Ruby things and we did this after about two years of this. The whole thing turned upside down. Watch this, look at that, did you see that? That was so good I got to do it again here.  There it is Rails with little bits of PHP all over and that just meant when it started, it started a Rails app and then we looked at it and we said, well, that's pretty amazing that we pulled this off at all. We really felt in control of our environment and then we looked at it and we said, you know, that's a bit of a waste of time too. We could have all just learned PHP, right? And that happens but it does give me some cred for having done a massive refactoring in the media Wiki code base and this was a few years ago. I understand it's bigger now. But one of the things I did early on was I read the whole code base and this isn't the PHP code. This is code I was working on last week which happens to be some event handler from Antler, Antler 4 which generates tables that can be interpreted in Java or JavaScript. This is a JavaScript, something or other. It's crazy stuff and I didn't actually use my technique that I'm gonna show you but I wanted to show you this in real code. What I do is I'll scan that and what is the shape of that code? And this is just one function. Actually it's one half of one function so it's not hard to look at. But here's what I'll reduce it to. I just delete all the alphabetic characters. You know, all the new lines. And it just turns into that. Can you see that? I wish it were a little bigger but if you just imagine all the curly brackets, all the parentheses, the equal sign pluses and pluses and it's especially nice because, you know, for loops. It starts out with a for loop and it has that left parent equal semicolon less than dot dot dot semicolon plus plus. You know, that's what every for loop looks like, right? So that it kind of stands out. And what I did is I just wrote a little script that did this to every function in MediaWiki, sorted them so that some more things were together and made a little browsing clickable thing. I'd say, wow, that's strange. What are all those dots in a row? And I click on it and it shows me the function. Now here's another one, all those dots in a row. Different things, same idiom, whatever. And so I browsed all of MediaWiki by looking at these cryptic strings and the sorting causes similar code to be similar and I developed a sense of how it was written. I learned the idioms that were being used in MediaWiki and my conclusion, by the way, was this pretty good code, you know? The everything in there that I saw was there for a purpose. It was carefully named, it used common. Every now and then you'll see something same, same, same, almost the same. And I click that almost the same. Why is this one different? And you know, there's a pretty good reason for it. There's something about the way errors were handled that were different or something. And so this allowed me to bring all my past experience to a code base that I didn't understand. Let me browse it in a way that I could get a comprehensive knowledge and I've done this over and over and over again. It sounds so simple, just delete all the letters and it leaves behind a signature. I call this the signature survey. Survey the signatures in a code base and it works. So these last two things, you know, that stack of bricks and reading code, this is the essence to me, what agile, what extreme programming is. And I do want to say one more thing and kind of move on to some other stuff. I want to say when we wrote this thing, which wasn't initially called the manifesto, but there was some arguing about who's going to own the thing and we renamed it. But the claim we made, and this is, I don't know, 15 years ago, this was the end of a lot of period of discovery. So I think of the stuff I did was 25 years ago, but here we were so modest. I want you to understand, we said we are uncovering better ways of developing software. We're uncovering, we didn't even claim to be done, but we said we're discovering things. And we're discovering by doing it. We're doing the development of software.  So our relationship was all about software and we noticed it was categorically different than what we had learned. Now one thing is computers were fabulously more powerful when this was written and they had the graphical interfaces and, you know, no punching cards or anything, it was a transformed industry and all we were doing is noticing that, you know, in this world there's a better way to write software. And then we noted through this work we've come to value and named four things. And those four things have become really important. We noticed we did a translation project and we noticed as we got people to translate it that they couldn't translate the four things because it doesn't actually say much. You know, they're so brief. They're so, whatever they are, you look at that and you say, of course, I believe that. You know, it, and then we'd say, well, what is a software tool anyway? You know, and so people argue about all kinds of stuff. It is an emotional document and it presents something, but the most important thing is we were doing it. We were helping other people do it. And if you do that long enough you'll develop these techniques, like I mentioned, that just make everything run big. And by the way, you know, if you're gonna fight cyber war, say, anything we suggest here doesn't help because it's a different kind of thing. We live in a different world than we did 25 years ago. So expect it to be different. And there are people who wanna call that agile too, but you know, I'll disagree with them. So how am I doing time-wise? Am I, am I using all your question time? I hope I'm answering some questions here as I go forward. I see some smiles, so it must be okay. And how many people actually live and work here in Silicon Valley, you know? So a third maybe. And I wanna just say that it's a hard place to be successful. I don't know if you feel that or not, but it is, as long as I've been in computing, I say no matter how much money I make, I know somebody makes 10 times as much. And that's pretty true for even the people who make 10 times as much. It's a strange place. It's the envy of the world, but they don't even know what they're talking about. They don't even know what they're envying. Now, before I go rant on the Valley too much, I have to say that these phones are fabulous. Here's the inside of a phone. And this is not really a product of Silicon. It's a product of the world. And the fact that we can make these things and make them so cheap is pretty marvelous. And that depends upon this organization of supply chains, which is marvelous. Here's a site that's a favorite of mine. It's called, it's at MIT. It's the Observatory of Economic Complexity. So what they did is they figured out how to kind of say, well, who knows what where? And in fact, they were able to project that backwards in time by looking at trade data and doing some fancy network analysis that they even got a science paper out of, just doing the, can you imagine, economists writing in science. But I just looked this up in, here their most recent data is 2014. And at the top of the list, the most economically complex product that a region could have is CERMETS. I'm thinking, I don't even know what a CERMET is. But it's some sort of ceramic that is mixed with other things that make it less brittle so that it's malleable like steel but has ceramic properties. I did notice when I first looked at this, is there's an awful lot of chemical engineering that the world, my tech world lives on top of chemical engineering. And so that's what this organization gives us, the ability to have this level of specialization and depend upon each other. And it's just fabulous to see how that works. But I do want to make a different point. I want to talk about why it's so hard to live in the valley here or even just know people who wish to live in the valley. And I have to make it really simple. This is some clip art I stole from Carver Mead in a recent talk. Carver Mead was a graduate student under Feynman who liked to make things simple and Carver likes to make things simple. So he says, well, I want to talk about gravitational waves but let's just talk about pushing a car down the road and what does it mean to get that car working and allowed him to start with some really simple formulas for momentum. I want to start even simpler. I want to talk about return on investment. Return on investment is set all the time here and it's basically the distance formula after you throw a few logs in there or take them out. Distance is equal to the rate times the time and that's you're gonna get farther if you go faster or work longer. Now that's not what people when they say ROI they really mean the rate of return on investment not the return on the investment. They're not interested in D because they don't actually care what you make as long as you do it really fast. And so what they do is they solve for R, the little R what is the rate and that's distance over time. And if you want to have a good rate just don't waste any time. Just keep that time real small because that makes the rate get big and the people who are putting money into your business they don't care what you do. They're not all they want to see is a return. They want a high rate of return and that is a meme that has spread the world over. That is a meme that was founded here in the valley and has spread the world over and it confuses people as to what they're actually doing. You know, if you're not getting a good rate of return if you're not working fast enough you're a loser and that is so wrong that I feel I have to mention that to say that if you're doing good work, if you've got measure of progress, all that stuff I put in the stack and you have the budget to keep doing that like maybe you work for free, that's what I do. And then it's really putting in the time put in the time to get good work done. And I wish I could say there was a magic thing that just gave you both a high rate of return and a high return at the same time and maybe genius helps there, you know, but it's really no, so anytime I hear somebody talking about how we ought to do this or I would, I have to say are they thinking rate of return or are they thinking return? And it's amazingly black and white. So, and it's not any more complicated than pushing an old car down the road. So now I want to talk about one last thing and this is something that I get asked more and more on account of the fact that I'm getting older and older every year. And it's like, how do you stay technical? Does anybody worry about that? Think, you know, how am I gonna be in this business five years from now? Yeah, I thought you were all pretty young. Okay, more and more you discover that all these techniques you learn, everything you know about software, you know, any respect you get for it disappears. It disappears pretty quickly. Like, if not in a year, certainly in five years. And so you live in this world where you have to keep reinventing yourself. And I think of this in terms of patterns. I have a set of patterns, they work pretty well. Early in my career, I learned how to debug a program and it hasn't changed much, but the programs I debug are dramatically different and to be able to work in the current world, you really have to invest in learning those new things. In fact, I would say that if you're a curmudgeon, you know, you say, well, all this new junk is really the same stuff as I did 10 years ago. It's just that they changed all the names. And that's not true. It turns out what they did is all, it's true that all the names changed, but it's not just what they do. There's probably one new name in there for one new innovation. And if you can go find that innovation and put it to work for you, then you've mastered the new technology.  But you can keep up, it is not hard to keep up, but you have to be able to let some old stuff go. So that's important.   And I'll say progressing, that implies, like I just said, that there's better stuff down the road and we're moving in that direction, but it just does seem like a churn. And the reason I do it, first of all, I have a nice editor, this is Sublime, and I can write simpler code. This is a little parser for the markup. You see all those reg-exes there?  And I get them one per line and I can get away with that. And I love to talk about that, but that's the thing I said I wasn't gonna talk about. But the other thing is pop in here and the debugging environment, the environmental support for JavaScript is pretty phenomenal. And the fact that you can, like on anybody's computer, you can walk up and say, well, let me debug that. Pop up the debugger and say, well, this is how the computer and I talk is pretty marvelous. And so I was a small talker for 15 years. The small talk was small and beautiful. I have to say that JavaScript is huge and beautiful. You know, there's a lot going on there and I like it. And I am able to do it because I was willing to set that small talk behind. So that's my story. Here's me holding my hands, posing for a picture. Click, click. Okay, you gotta be quick. What I wanna do now is somebody help me watch the time here and make sure we finish in time. How many minutes do we have? Like zero? I don't know, I'm just gonna keep going until they throw us out. Here's my slide. I took all those little pictures and brought them forward as a reminder of the kind of things I talked about. And I would love it. I like this idea of coming up to the microphones. If you come up to the microphones and ask a question, then I can give kind of a flip answer. And if you don't like the answer, just get back in line again, come around and ask it again. Right, and so please, please show that all these pictures were worth the trouble that I can remind you what they were. Is there a lunch or something coming that people wanna go to? Ah, very good.  There you go, exactly. Don't be too good. Don't be too good. One thing, thanks for the fun talk. One thing I noticed recently talking to younger devs around Berkeley is that the tool use of graph data structures has really bumped up. And for one reason is graph has a scalable property that's useful in these times. But another reason is that the literacy, where you start as like a smart high school person, the literacy level of computer science basics is so much way higher than 25 years ago, right? When I was doing C++. So that's, I'm interested in that. The graph data structure is that, do you have something to say about that? Oh, 15 or 20 things I could say about that. I will say that I worked with a group. We hire a lot of code school people who've learned Ruby and were originally a Ruby shop, so that's pretty good. But I'm a fan of D3, which is a great visualization package. And a couple of them came over to me and they said, well, we wanna talk about how we can do this project in the company that we're gonna do it in D3. And then they kind of sheepishly said, well, we're not too good at the graph algorithms.  But I didn't say that. I said, oh yeah, okay, well it'd probably be kind of like this and was encouraging. And then I said, how about if I create some test data for you? Oh yeah, yeah, test data, that'd be great. So I wrote a little Ruby script that generated some graphs. And I made them simple and I sent them to them and they found that really useful, because it's like test-driven development. I'm only writing the tests. It's data-driven development and I'm making graphs that are data and then they do that and they say, well, what about this other thing we're worried about? I was, oh, let me make some more new data. And I just made the data progressively more complicated because I knew enough about the kind of graphs they were making that it would work. And that was, and so somebody should be lining up over here to ask the next question or I'm just gonna keep talking about graphs. It actually worked well because they could manage, and I think this is something you learn in code school, you manage your own learning to the point where when there's a problem in front of you that you don't understand, you go figure it out. And so I was basically presenting them a series of problems without announcing I'm gonna give you a series of problems and teach you graphs and it worked pretty well. Over here. I have 55 minutes left? 20, oh, that's perfect. I thought, the original suggestion was talk for 10 minutes and then I made these slides and just getting through them was tough, but I love this stuff. So, okay, go ahead. This isn't directly related to anything, but I figured. No, nothing's related here. All right, great. I wonder how you feel about open source software in general. There's, I guess, a political aspect to it and a pragmatic aspect to it, and I don't know if you subscribe to either or both of those in terms of. That's a very good question because open source software is truly misunderstood. Sorry, I was told I have to say my name. It's your own Corinne. Ah, nice to meet you. I was sort of, I mean, when GNU came out, I was in the UNIX world and I thought, well, that's nice, you know, but I had all the software I needed, so I just ignored it. And somewhere along the line, I ended up doing this Wiki thing and people said, oh yeah, yeah, open source, open source, and I said, oh yeah, I should probably open source this. I never really did properly license it, but some other people came along and threw something in front of it. I just looked at the licenses and every user will read all the licenses and I just, it just drove me nuts reading the licenses.  On the other hand, I think that my relationship with open source has changed dramatically with GitHub. GitHub and its commenting and pull request and all that. It basically took so much of the burden off of an open source creator, it became a place for me to work where I could work on the distance. I could go and go and go. And I've been working on a new Wiki, by the way, for five years and the first one took a couple of weeks and this one's not as far along and it's five years. So I feel a little bad about that.  Oh, you did this one thing wrong with delegates. Great, so I go study delegates a while so I can understand the pull request. It puts me, because I bring something to the thing where people will pay attention to me and talk to me. And so as a creative, I think it's a fabulous space. So open source is great. Now, one of the brilliant things that happened with MediaWiki is that it was open source and there's a lot of copies of MediaWiki around. And I'm kind of following this thread about do we want to be microservice architecture and if we're designed to run on 1,000 computers, what does that do to our open source project? I think that's a serious question, although I will point out that most people who contribute are contributing because they like what you're doing, not that you're helping other people do their own wikis. But I do think that MediaWiki's benefited dramatically from being open source and that's something you don't wanna throw away carelessly. Go ahead, we'll go left here. Hi, I'm Adam White and I get paid by the Wikimedia Foundation to do the same thing every day and I really mean the same thing. And so a thing that's on my mind after you talk is that you have some good things to share about the fact that how you do things should evolve. And I'm wondering if you wanna talk about evolving what we're doing and maybe the frame that I think about this in is like Wikia can support, I don't know, tens, hundreds of thousands of wikis of people all doing completely different things and Wikimedia Foundation has been supporting the same subset of wikis which is people doing a rather conservative thing all the time and wondering if that's... Yeah, that's a good question because if you wanna do something cool, it helps to be daring and I do blind stuff all day long every day and draw a salary for it and because I didn't... God, I forgot to get rich, you know? What was I thinking? So I consider myself lucky to draw a salary and the health insurance thing but I do much more daring work in open source than I do in my day job. In fact, I often will do something at home just to see if I can do it and after I know that I can do it, I would dare even suggest it at work. Even as CTO, I would not suggest things if I hadn't known that it would work and so a lot of the daring work is, you know, done off production. I also think that having worked for a living and know that business wants pretty modest things from technology that it helps to recognize the little spurts of creativity and just how you do your work or whatever, even if you don't even really believe in the big project and I've worked on plenty that I don't believe in, you know, to find that execution can have a lot of variety and especially if you're willing to write tools for yourself and you get good at writing tools, that's, I get a lot of strength from that but no, it's, I said that technologists exist to give policymakers choices and that means, I mean, I think of it as every single line of code is a decision made, you know, but it's a decision that if I'm programming with somebody else then somebody will notice but most people don't have a clue of what I do so I was lucky that Wiki became something but no, most of what I do is invisible and anybody who wasn't close to it would say it's the same old thing. Hi, I'm Andrew, I also work at the WMF. Thank you for the talk, it was really great. One just quick comment before my question. I want to mention saying that your analogy about the car reminded me of, it says we're going, we're walking slowly because we're going far. Yes, it's the endurance, you know, and for sure. So my question is about, if you could, it's not a question, I guess, just if you want to talk a little bit about how software and computer code relates to human language and human communication and if you had some insights on to, in software, some insights about how software, how computer code is a form of human communication, I think that relates to agile because a lot of the things you say in agile are, it's about software development as a social activity, how people work together to develop software. And so there's a big component of that is communication through code. And I find a lot of the time, you know, how you name a variable or even how you space the code or how you find abstractions in the code and organize it based on those abstractions is part of you communicating with other people. And there's also a whole movement of literary programming. So maybe you could talk a bit about that. Thank you very much. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I should mention that I was very strongly influenced by George Lakoff and he and Mark Johnson wrote this book, Metaphors We Live By and Lakoff has done a lot of other things. Very systematic study of where meaning comes from and how it's propagated. And the idea is that you'll say one thing but you really mean another by analogy or something metaphorically and that these metaphors just become part of our language. There's no way to not think in terms of metaphors. And so extreme programming which was the early and most successful agile methodology had a practice in it called metaphor. Because I put it there. I said, look, we need to think and I could have said storytelling. What is the story that the software tells? But it's more like how are we gonna choose to think about the things we created? And this is an object oriented time. We're always exploring that. What are we gonna think about the objects that we name? And I said it was really important and you might write your code, look at it and say well this code turned out to be very different than what I thought we were writing and we have to change all the names to be consistent with what it is today. And that changing the names, it means it needs to be part of a consistent metaphor about what we're really doing because most code in the world, you know, like having input and output, you know, that just visualizes a program as a little machine and a conveyor going through it. You put some stuff in the input and it comes out the output. That's a metaphor. And how we think about code and now it would be more inclined to say story or something like that, but this idea that we might get on a wiki and by telling stories using terms that are defined by other wiki pages that we might brainwash ourselves into the future by writing and that's actually what happened. That's why my wiki became less important because the words just entered the vocabulary but they were all practiced by writing pages in terms of these other words and you could just click, click, click for definition. So although people said this whole metaphor thing, nobody understands that nobody's gonna do it, nobody's gonna sit down and think of what the metaphor they're using for a program but they did it all the time on wiki. And so, you know, it's caught on in a weird sense. Just like all the pattern stuff, nobody goes and reads a pattern book anymore but if you listen to anybody talk, they're just citing patterns left and right as they learn the words. So we have about 15 minutes in addition to these four people, I have at least one more question coming from IRC. Let's take IRC first. Can we sneak in there? Because I'm not sure we get to everybody here and somebody's gotta watch the clock carefully. Okay, so I'm literally reading here. So someone said we are walking slowly because we are going far. Question, can you talk a little bit about how software and computer code relates to human language and can you share some insights about how computer code relates to communication? That relates to agile because it's about software, dev as a social activity. So there's a big component of that is communication through. Okay, I think I heard two questions there. I'm gonna go for the other one and instead of talking about metaphor, I just wanna talk about what it takes to read code. And one of the things you're diving into if you just commit yourself to reading a lot of code is even if it's in a language, a computer language you know, it's just completely foreign because you're hearing a different voice or a different set of voices. And so when I jumped into Media Wiki, I felt like I was in a conversation that was going on without me. And what I had to do is I had to read enough of it so that I found how these people talk. And it's very technical, it's precise. It's like people say, mathematics is the language of science. So they use the word language there correctly, I believe. There's some people who say Morse code is the language of telegraphy. And I learned it well enough that I hear words instead of letters, that's pretty cool. But to look at a lot of code and see thought, you know, to see the product of a human mind on the page and then imagine what that human mind went through to produce that is something that, you know, you might have said, my friends would have done it differently. And that's judgmental. But if you want to say, I just want to see what people were thinking when they wrote this code. And if they were careful enough to make what they were thinking manifest, I think it's a joy. It's, you know, I wish I spoke more than English, but I don't, but I speak lots of computer languages. And I've looked at, and at this point, I'll say lots of different dialects of JavaScript, for example. They're getting too much time over there, but they've got a longer line. Hi, my name is Derkin Hartman and I'm a volunteer developer. Let me reword my question a bit based on the last question. If we are speaking about the language and the vocabulary and things like this, looking at how we now have wikis and they're mostly targeting prose and text. I mean, that's where it came from mostly. What do you think the lessons are in terms of technology if we want to take this to new forms of storytelling or whatever, with new media types and other directions that offer ship can go to? What can we learn from what we've learned from wiki and markdown and these things? I think one thing we've learned is that natural language typed in on a typewriter is actually pretty amazing what you can do with that. So don't ever leave that behind. But I've, I worked briefly for a company that was going to invent user-generated content videos. And I learned a lot about videos and I learned how hard it was. One of the pleasures of that is actually working in Venice Beach when Andrew Lee was down there in Venice Beach and we spent a lot of time talking about that and he turned me in.  Turned me on to lots of things that are sort of formulaic about making good video. I remember the BBC Five Shot was an example that he had done a great little video about how to use that as a set of patterns that will guide you to making acceptable video on pretty much any newsy subject. And so that I think is important. Of course, video storytelling is really hard. I saw that Andrew had something out, he says, well, maybe these kind of year in montages are the sort of thing that video would really work for and he did a couple, which I watched before coming here and I say, hey, great work. Because I saw 2016 was a great year for Wikipedia, watching Andrew's video. I think VR is a different challenge. I think VR has the opportunity, every VR I've seen is just a bunch of random things thrown into a room with a checkerboard floor or something like that. But it seems to accept random things.  There was a great video, what was it called? Monday morning or something, a Will Vinton video that was basically that, it's claymation. Guy in a museum where all the exhibits were just dynamic, it was great. But the challenge is that the production of video, and I assume the production of VR, maybe visualizations are a little better, it's hard to imagine how that's done collaboratively. Of course, I was told when we started with Agilus, he says, no, you can't develop a program collaboratively because you don't know who to blame. And blaming was so important. And then beyond wiki, collaborating where nobody owned anything, explaining why you can't possibly develop a computer program with collaborative ownership. And they were collaborating, it was the weirdest thing. But no, I think as we get more and more developed media that has a process of production that we have to invent new processes that are amenable to collaboration. And I think it will be a new art forms. And it'll be hard to make, the technology, and people come and tell you how to do it. But Andrew had a lot of neat tips, and so he's a good guy, don't let him get away. All right, this time you have to come up with a question now. Yeah, a bit related to the question. I was wondering, would like to share some things you learned from your work in recent years on the federated wiki. Yes. And to give a better background, so my name is Tim and Byer. I work for the Foundation too. Also a long time Wikipedia editor. I remember your keynote from Wikipedia 2005 with, I think it was related a bit, that Daniel mentioned. And over the last few years, I've kept this list on my user page. It's called a timeline of distributed wikipedia proposals. It's like all the time. Oh, that's a great page, I know that page. Okay, cool. Yeah, I was just telling everybody, it's all the times where somebody thought, hey, we have these linear revision histories and it would be great if it could be more like GitHub, we could fork and merge articles. And so it's been proposed so many times, it never actually succeeded. I'm kind of wondering if it's because it's technically difficult because it maybe actually ignores some of the things that maybe Wikipedia are successful. Anyway, I was just wondering if you could share some things from federated wiki, which might be especially interesting for Wikipedia. So, I mentioned, I didn't call it federated wiki, I don't think, in 2005, but I said I see a future where servers are gonna talk to each other and I'll have my own server and they'll enter the conversation and every morning I'll come on and see what my server has found for me. That was my vision and that this was more personal than the conversation that we have on Wikipedia where we have to agree before the edit stick, that there could be disagreement and there would be a pressure for them to be resolved but that it wouldn't be as excruciating a pressure. I was dreaming about this and mentioned it and I was told that it actually stirred up a lot of conversation, but five years ago I had the chance to spend a year among a number of things developing this and I was quite surprised that it didn't turn out to be a server to server thing. It was a browser to browser thing where I could be in a browser and I could reach out to a bunch of different wikis and pull the pages together and expect them to form a story that maybe has never been told before, especially if it included some calculation because there's JavaScript in there and it can calculate or visualize or whatever, that it was a new medium for a new style of collaboration and I am more convinced that that's important, maybe not for encyclopedias, but as a way that we in the world can talk to each other than ever. What I have learned is that nobody wants to work that hard. They like pushing the like button. Just let me just say if I like it and move on. We're not even really a culture of reader or a culture of viewers. Oh, I like that picture. You had a nice breakfast yesterday and like. And that is pulling the level at which we have conversation as a people way down because it makes people money. So Federated Wiki, I'm content to work on it. I've discovered a handful of things. We've grown to about 1,000 sites and I would say that on any given day, if five of those sites have edits, that's a good day, it really depends upon who is promoting it and I promote developer to developer. If anybody wants to succeed with Federated Wiki and has developer talent, then I wanna work with them, but I'm not the community advocate. Community advocates have to come and bring their own community and have a technical person to talk to me too. And that is something I could get away with. People come along and say, oh, well, if you just put a Facebook button down at the bottom, you get so many tweets. And I said, well, if I was judging myself by how many tweets I got, you don't get tweets in Facebook, whatever you get. And this is more that our little R versus big D in the distance formula. Now, I'm also, know that a lot of great work was done a few centuries ago and the people who did the work never got to see its appreciation. If it turned out to be that, well, you know, maybe we'll have some conversations here. I'm here all week and we can talk about that and what I've learned from it in depth, but I think it is, although we share the W and the I and the K and the I, it's a very different thing and intentionally different. Not enough to talk about it, but it's you guys have your leadership in a direction that I admire and I'm happy to learn what you're doing and love that I had a chance to participate. And maybe that, we'll have to call that the last question. Do we finish up here? So we have a hard stop in five minutes. Hard stop, we're up to the hard stop then. And there's three people with questions, I don't know. Okay, no more people come stand up, but those who are already standing will do your question. No more questions from IRC? Thank you for the great questions, by the way. I have one here. Oh, okay, another IRC question? Yeah. Earlier you said Wikipedia has nowhere to look for guidance, which can be problematic. At the same time, Wikis are losing editors and one of the potential places they are going to are social networks. Do you think Wikis should try and unincorporate social networking features? Bonus, or should Wikis be social networks? Should Wikis be social networks? Four minutes, four. No, I'd say absolutely not. I'd say that's absolutely the wrong direction. And one reason I put you up on top of that, because I don't care how much money they're making, it's down there, it's television. And that's not to say there isn't good television, and some of it comes from San Francisco, but it's a much more noble thing than that. Now, does that mean that it can go forward without changing? Of course not, and that's where this whole, how do you get the waves to do what you want them to do? And the answer is you can't, but you can make changes and you can observe it. I don't actually follow most of the conversations out of the foundation, but I do read the research list. And I like the research list because they're saying true things about what people do. It's like, here's the physics of water only, it's talking about people. I also wanna say that having read it for a number of years, I'm convinced they're just barely scratching the surface. There is so much to know about what people do that is not known through that research. The nice thing about it is it's repeatable, and I really appreciate the people who produce the feeds and anybody comes and asks them crazy question and they treat them very nicely. That is really great work and that's more likely to expose something if you're talking to people who really live and work as editors and then you have some stats that are probably true and you reconcile those and that gives you a hint. That's much more likely to be valuable guidance. And you know, over there at Facebook, they're studying this stuff like crazy to figure out what they can get you to do too. They're studying themselves to figure out what they can do. You guys have to study yourselves and the fact that you're open and there's so many people willing to help, that's a position of strength that very few people have. So that's the answer. Last question and quick answer. Hi, my name is Matt Herbst and I've discovered the C2 Wiki back when I was a teenager two decades ago and it blew my mind, taught me to love camel case and people patterns in projects. And I appreciate that you brought it back up because I saw it was down earlier this year. Been recommending it to everybody. I was curious about you mentioned that for the last five years you've had a new Wiki software platform that you're developing other than Wiki, Wiki Web. Was this the federated Wiki? It is the federated Wiki, yes. Okay, so that's wrong. And one thing I did is about year three. First of all, I expected Wiki to last six months and the fact that it actually worked at all and people treated it with such respect was amazing. And then we actually covered ground. We accomplished our advocacy goal. We changed the way people talked about computer programming and that was pretty neat. And then we got the sock puppet thing and it was popular enough. It scored very well on Google that it attracted Riff Raff. And the community was willing to fight it off and I didn't give much help because I was the only programmer. And I just said, look, when these guys start launching robots at each other, that's the end. And then it happened a couple of years ago. Some guy got on there and started fighting with the old timers and said, no, you're doing Wiki wrong and whatever. And people tried to help him and he was abusive. And then he started publishing scripts. He says, here, look, here's a script that'll delete all of this and here's a script that'll delete all of that. And I said, no, we're not gonna run those scripts and I won't read only. And two complaints, right? So it's like it had lost its value because it was fixed in its goal and it met it. Now then I'm thinking, well, I wanna make this thing where we don't have to be so narrow, that we can talk broadly about how we're gonna live on the earth. It's not a scientific question. It's like, how are we gonna share resources when they're in short supply, that kind of question. And I fed the original Wiki into that. So it's in there, but if you wanna write, you have to put up a server to write on.  And my hope is that, this is with Docker or something is gonna become much easier, but right now it's, you have to type npm install dash g Wiki and you got it. Ward, thank you very much. Well, thank you for the chance of speaking to you. And I hope that there's been something in all this that's very useful. I'm around for a long time and I'm proud of you. We have now a short break and then check the program for more.