And we're on today's the guests. We've got Johnny mad dog idea first of all John I just want to thank you for coming on the show mate. No problem James a pleasure and nice meeting you like wise and Had a lot of messages for you try to get on the show. So I'm glad I've actually got you in problem Yeah, I don't stick with any questions Johnny So I always like to go right back to start where it all started and how it became the life you got involved in So where did you grow up mate? Well? I was born in Belfast in 1963 Born into the Troubles in 1969 the Troubles is the conflict with Happened and known an anim between the IRA and lawless power militaries and I went down for 30 odd years and I was I was born Until it I grew up And it and I became the person it was because of the Troubles I became a leader of the Ulster Freedom Faders and the Ulster Defense Association Which is a lawless power military group who was defending the lawless people against the professional IRA and Republican Elements Well, I didn't join the part that's the organization until I was 18 19 But prior to that I was engaged in them sectarian Troubles right right through most of my life. That's the way Belfast was then it was a war zone And it was a sectarian war between Catholics and Protestants. You had street battles every day almost every day Of the week, how far were you from the Catholic area? Yeah, we're just you lived I grew up living beside Catholics and I grew up having Catholic friends and 169 came I was eight or nine years of age I woke up one morning and half of my street the houses in it had been burned out And they had been Catholic houses and the Protestants had burned them's out and Likewise on the other side the Catholics had burned Protestants out because like Scotland today Protestants and Catholics lived side-by-side and they were friendly until the civil rights of 1969 that changed everything and just overnight the two communities were split and Segregated where Catholics lived in Catholic areas and Protestants lived in Protestant because it was tip-for-tip then the house is getting But that's what it was. Yes. Yes, and then it just became a Predominantly Protestant area and a predominantly Catholic area and no Catholic would have lived in a Protestant area and face further Because obviously if you see how she's getting burnt down, you're going to be angry so in your mind You're what they tell you well at the time when I woke up I was a young a young boy at the time I woke up and then half this the houses were still burning but some of these people Catholics had been my friends who I'd played with but on the known the mayor a young age I didn't realize what what all was going on, but as life went on and the years went on I just Got adapted until it and agree until it have no other choice So it become the leader Johnny You must have where did those leadership skills committee did you learn from anybody? Did anybody take you under their wing? Well, obviously it's probably just like the British Army where if you're a good soldier You're recognized by the by the Brigadiers and the leaders above you and obviously they they will put you forward or put your name forward to be because I believe in my opinion you would have to have certain skills to be a leader of of Numbers of men and obviously they obviously people above me had put me forward and obviously chosen me to be a leader What's a good leader for you? What is a good leader? Well, someone that can maintain discipline and someone that can Effectively match the enemy with what they're doing to your people and I believe that's what I done And I had their skills. I had that determination to get the best out of the volunteers and The most important thing was respect And I think the volunteers respected me as I did respect them because you have got a massive following and a massive respect in Belfast I did have and I was a leader and at one time I was like God and obviously that the other side here at me and then became When all the infighting started and half of the other ones my own people started disliking me But I would put that all down to the personality clashes and jealousies How many people stay in Shankle Road? Oh, there's thousands of people live in the Shankle Road, and it's it's it's a hundred percent Loyalist area indeed. It's the heart of loyalism and Ulster and that that's where I was from and that's where our stomping ground was and that's where our Unit of the Ulster Freedom fighters came from how many people were in your unit Johnny Well, there was there was thousands of people in the UDA in the province and the Ulster Defense Association and That that organization was legal at the start Until 1991 I think it was it when it was banned by the Secretary of State and then it became illegal to be a member of that organization I went on I was sentenced for both membership of the UDA and the UFF and I became a leader of both and That that and FOB been in control of hundreds of thousands of men In that area where's Belfast? When did you first get the jail? I've been the jail on numerous occasions From numerous offenses like guns bombs membership Dragged in terrorism hijacking and just I think the first time would have been when I was a late teenager Moving hijacking a bus or something because I think for people looking at the outside We spoke about it earlier.  Well, when you look back on it now, thankfully I'm glad that there's peace over there now, but regrettably that didn't come in 1969 when the troubles just kicked off. I just regret the fact that the politicians couldn't have done in 1969 what they've done some years ago to bring about the the Good Friday Agreement and It's a sin because almost four people four thousand people has lost their lives both sides Parties and Catholics placing soldiers prison officers and But there's peace there and I and and hopefully it continues as a lot of lives Then to loss and I always say everything has a ripple effect. There's not just the people who lost a life It's this the everyone surrounding it family members court cases. But again, that was involvement He's been involved in when did you get the when did you get is it 16 years ago? I was at life You know, I got 16 years for direct and Tarzan And I was released early when I was in prison that that the the peace process the good Friday agreement was saying and Part of the good Friday agreement that the prisoners would be released early I was released early, but it was the first prisoner to be returned Because there was a clause that you got out on the peace agreement But if you associate it with power militaries that you could be brought back without going in front of a court And I had been the first prisoner to be brought returned to prison to serve the rest of the remainder of sentence Is that because you will high-profile well on and based on intelligence which was unfair based on intelligence report They leveled all sorts of access accusations against me a legend that have been falling guns bombs power military Shootings etc etc, and I didn't have no defense I mean they could have said anything and that a panel would have believed that and that was enough to keep me That served the remainder of my sentence. How did the good Friday agreement come about? Came a lot years and years of build up before it. I was at 10 years or something or try yeah Yeah, but I but there was years and years and the making and church leaders and Community leaders and just it was a long long process a process that had to come because it was just it was going The war the conflict how long did you serve was it three years when you're doing your 16 sentence? No, I served with being brought back that did serve the remainder out of my 16 years I was released for about nine months right and then returned to prison So I spent I done worse out of the good Friday game because I spent almost 12 years out of a 16-year sentence Sick was spent between the Crumman Road prison and the Mayors prison. How was the Mayors prison because I've Because we were political prisoners. We could wear our own clothes and we could control the jail Well, not the jail, but our wings. There's certain degree. We commanded the wings and that the screws just They were in the circle.  That party was it? No I mean when you go to prison like the key objective is taking your freedom Mm-hmm, and although we were in the Mayors and times were good and all comrades We'll all had great times together But I mean your freedom was taken from me and that was the important thing You couldn't go home at night if you wanted to you were in let's just story with a guy with a wooden leg Oh, that's the guy that you used to break because we could we would smuggled anything into the Mayors prison. In fact, I tried this I got a Fizzard or a friend of mine to try and smuggle me a dog and a pop because I knew because it was just the HUD bodies that the authorities was allowed us to have bodies, right? So I decided that I would like a wee pop and I knew if we got a pop in there The screws weren't getting it out because we controlled them wings So the put I sent word outside and then a friend of mine's got this we pop and he drugged it so as it would be Right, so the guy he tracksuit bottoms and he comes on to visit me and obviously you get search coming them is So the wee dog was out cold down his tracksuit bottoms But when he was in the search get the search We don't came away The screws look that down and see that just pull this turn got the dog and just laughed and put him out But I never got the wee dog in but the guy with the one leg He had an artificial leg and that we were on steroids and all the time And we we yet we had we got the stakes and all smuggled in from the outside So he would come in every Monday and anything that we want any contraband that we wanted well me and whoever was part of it we he would have just put it all on his As wooden leg and come in on the one thing that didn't search that it didn't take that leg off And he would have just come in and just took out all the contraband whatever we wanted Anything I could have got we could have got anything in there Almost anything cuz I've read the parties that used to have any other women the drugs It was it was it really a sentence Well, not really well again your freedom was taken from us, but the way we were it was all comrades You mean and everybody was there for each other you became a family then you lost your family on the outside But when you became in the present you gained another family They were your comrades, but they were as close as not closer than family Did you know what a majority of people everybody or every single one of my I was their leader most of the ones in my What I commanded they were all my comrades That's crazy, and it was it was great That was great, but it's like everything it's odd times because prison can be a rough time you know family problems and most most most prisoners do you have and Most prisoners had children and waves and parents and it was hard on them But we tried to make it the best that we could for us and yes We did we had discos and the prison authority supplied that that that that that this other that this the And obviously everything we made drank we'll smuggle drank and cuz you could get we could smuggle anything into the maze So it wasn't who we were making I saw what women as well Well, women would have came to the visits and we instructed the screws that Increased because our visit and I was like cubicles But it was head-height so the crew the screw and the box could see you but we say look we want that We want more privacy so the screws are blazed and the built it up So girls would have come in and once you were in that cubicle You could have done anything and before when your time was up for a visit the screw knew what you were doing So he wouldn't walk down, but he would shout down five minutes So what I was basically say was get your clothes on that you five minutes Ready to go and how long was the maze prison running for for years and years and years and it's just closed But what after the Good Friday? Tourist attraction now as I that's where the ten hunger strikers died professional IRA So do you think if you grew up a few hundred meters down the road? You'd have been fainting for a different cause absolutely if I had been a Catholic at a problem Most definitely joined the professional IRA because that's what it was over there If you were born up born in the communities like the shankler the falls 99% of the people in that community support it the either the loyalists or the Republican movement or Went on to enjoy enjoying the movements.  How did it all come crashing down? How did everybody start fighting? How did well once a good Friday? But in my opinion once a good the peace process came and most of the prejudice was loud out of jail There was no more common enemy So see within loyalism you had different groupings. You'd be also a volunteer force and you do UDA Which there were the fighting for the same cause, but they didn't get along with each other So when you've no common enemy to fight with the IRA So it was inevitable that they just ended up fighting with one another and that's sadly. That's what happened But that's crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy Because for all them years you were fighting the one objective Which was the Republican movement and then when there's peace There's no more Republicans aren't doing them to your community or your country So you can't fight with them. So The sad fact happened was that that is that still happened just now. It's still yes It's still festers. It's still first on away and it will always be the case because you've you've groups of men who There's no real reason to be there, but they're still there like we're 20 odd years into the And the peace and and par militaries are still in existence and this shouldn't really be there because there's no real threat from from anyone There's dissident republicans, but there are in a small small minority And that all they're doing is just policing their own areas. Well, they like dishing out punishment beatings on their own people But there's no real threat of bombing the country or Protestants are lawless being murdered by them and so in my opinion There's no no reason for par militaries of all stature to be to be in place whatsoever Are you still in contact with anybody? Yep, I am indeed. I lots of my comrades and lots of my friends and my family. Yes, I'm contacted on a daily basis You'll still be well connected. Johnny. You're not going to but I'm still passion. I'm still a lawless There are no regrets about my past and and and I mean A servant a payment that the society served 16 years in prison for for For for me offenses and I'm passionate still about politics back home in northern ireland and I'm still I'll have me here to the ground. Do you miss it Johnny? Well, I miss it in the sense that well Not really because there's peace there now And I don't feel that there's no real reason for me to be there now And when I'm living here in scottland, maybe all this was for a reason because now I have a normal life A normal life to do the things that I couldn't do when it was back home in belfast And and and in that aspect of it all I'm hoping I in life and I don't have to live the life that it did live over. Was that the main objective to get peace between the catholics and protestants? Or there was it became a stage where it felt normal just to to fight because You're absolutely right. Yes, because it was it was enshrined into people and even now you still have Teenagers clashing Because they're tuning the news every day and then they're going to the parks and they're ranging fights through social media It's still a sectarian thing and it will still take years and years to get rid of that mindset I don't think if I go join it because it's in Glasgow. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right I say it's everywhere. You're absolutely right. But the good thing about Back home and belfast is that they're not murdering each other They're not killing each other and they hate it Isn't that and belfast has came a long long way since the good friday agreement whereas catholics and protestants and now Like never before they're they're they're working together. They're they're friendly together They're actually getting married and all things like that would never have happened in our time when the conflict was going on I mean you couldn't have married a catholic or face versa You couldn't have worked anywhere near a catholic and and it's crazy though. It was crazy. It was really really crazy And it was odd. Yeah, I always believe human beings were all connected and yeah religion race You see See when I came to scatlin, I didn't realize that was in belfast remember we didn't see catholics Only when I was a kid I run about with him until all the troubles broke out in 1969 So we were all completely segregated. We didn't we never we just heard about the IRA on the news They killed the police man. They killed the soldier or whatever. We never seen catholics, right? But when I came to scatlin, I realized that what was this all about? I'll give you an example I would have went into the boogies and there would have been a guy with a salty t-shirt, right? And naturally my stomach was turning. I had been stalling beside him didn't say nothing But naturally within me.  That's where I was feeling about him. But through time I Realized that people are about me and people living beside me next to where it were catholics But it didn't mean nothing to them the way it did the ospaq home in northern So it took a long long time for me to realize that this there's no difference here Why did why did we have to behave the way we did? And in northern Ireland and the people in scatlin are no difference to provinces and the catholics the same It's their catholic and we're practicing But they don't hate or kill the way that was happening back home So it took a long long time for me to accept that a guy with a ranger's t-shirt He's no threat and he's no difference from me and you stick a pin him and stick a pin him and pin him Pin him and he'd bleed the way I will But it took a long time but belphos was but that's to condition the mind through the violence exactly Exactly, and that's getting burnt down or something. You're going to hate and it's crazy to hate a certain color Are a certain religion, but again it's being conditioned that hatred was Hatred just became worse through the years throughout the years because of what the iri was doing to our country and to our people I mean Over here you don't turn the news on every day in here that someone's been shot dead It's it's rare not really rare, but it's whereas in belphos you turn the news on maybe it would have been happened Once a day twice a day three times a day every day or a bomb And it was it was against The the loyalist people or the or the or face versa So if you were if you were in belphos and you seen somebody myself take top on The difference is see in belphos at that time if someone was in the shingle with a salty t-shirt And i'm being totally honest here if you beat the death that's that's that's a sad reality Then way back then in the times Whereas and that's how I felt the way I felt when the first time I Should be said someone I was feeling that hatred and that aggression and anger That's just a normal occurrence because conditions are mind My mind's been conditioned now that I realized like that that was crazy. What was going on over there? There was real no need for it and it well that man sat well It's not going to change overnight back home. It's going to take years and years and years and years But they will get there hopefully would you ever speak to Some of the comrades and some of the troops and and and try and discuss it the way you're talking now to say What is it? You're fighting for and what is it? No? Well, what's the point of it? Well, it's not alive I would be a hypocrite of I was to say that now because at the time and even now I've no regrets about what I was doing So I could not sit till comrades now and say look that was wrong Do you understand what I mean? Because at the time it was right we felt that the government and the police weren't defending us and we were going to lose Our country till the free state if we didn't stand up So the government was doing enough. So we took the law in their own hands and we we challenged the IRA So I couldn't say the volunteers now that was wrong, but at the time it was right So I've no regrets and I would would not try to say look that was wrong The good thing is there's a peace peace agreement there and I and they've all signed up till it and so far so good And there's not the lives being lost at war 20 odd years ago, which is the main thing Which is the important thing. Do you think it could kick off again? I don't think so. I think the powers to be or and totally in control of it I think the powers to be or in control in terms of paramilitaries like Professional IRA and distant republicans and loyals. I think that that the intelligence services are on top of it So I don't think they would let that spread the way it did Is there still a strong strong units between the uda uvf? Well, IRA is a Is a strong a force of the well, they're still there that the MP although weapons have been decommissioned That was part of the good friday agreement where weapons would be decommissioned now The dogs on the street know that not all weapons have been decommissioned some weapons were decommissioned But there's no doubt in my mind that both loyalists and republicans would have kept the weapons in case Further down the line that that the troubles all start up again. They're not going to lay themselves defenseless So a loyalist johnny. What is a loyalist to you then a prarist and prarist and someone who came who would More more so like a paramilitaries who would have fought for what they believed in And sacrificed their freedom and sadly mostly some of them give up their lives for the For the fight. Yep.  Yep for freedom That's that takes a lot of bought and you've got to take your life to anybody that does that I gradually respect them to give your life. I would never mark them. I would never let Anyone mark them because what they done was that they sacrificed it all for their cause Do you have a how has your mindset? How do you do you get nightmares johnny? Do you get? No, no, no, nothing No, no, no Just kind of used to it became cold Well at the end of the day, I believe them what I was doing was justified and the defense of our people So I I I don't live to regret it. I don't have sleepless nights There's always talk about you having hits out in your life and people want to kill you But I think you've probably been used to that since you were 18. Well along my journey. Absolutely I've been in the receiving end of the gun On many's of times and I mean there's been multiple attempts to kill me Through ways of bombs bullets poison Just just but have just came immune to it and even as even in scotland as recent as three years ago There was several people who were sentenced to long prison sentence for Conspiracy conspiring to murder me myself and my friend And this turns out that these boys were on their surveillance from the mi-5 for some 14 months And that it sees an assault rifle and the plot that recordings of them doing dummy runs wanting to kill me But I just think that these people were loosely connected to the Just small-time criminals who were using the republican flag flag of to try and Extract money from drug dealers in Glasgow. And this is the case and some of the drug dealers were Actually frightened of us these people who were pretending to be republicans and we're going to fight and kill janitor So, what do you hear joining when somebody's trying to kill you? How do you react? Well, I'll go back to that incident. I was in Spain, right? And I just came back But a week prior to that I was flying into this press work airport and the play I was pulled into the room You know and that was that used to be normal for me back home But in times of peace and times of night when I'm living the normal life that never happened So accepted it the first time so I was away a week that a week later Accepted that they say look new laws have come in terrorism laws blah blah blah so hands up. Yes But a week later I flew in from the country again and it was the same one pulled me out of a crowd of hundreds of people Pulled me in the room. So I believe that this is the police Starting starting to harass me again.   It's this harassment. No, no, no No, you've got it all wrong.  Well, absolutely and the way I look at it if you're doing if you're doing wrong The police will be on your case. I'm not doing wrong. So not all my case, right? Maybe at the start they have me on as their feelings and the because of the person the personality I was they needed to stamp their authority and they did the bust at my house They are in response all that shit for a few times, but I just told them to behave themselves because someone like me with a Personality like myself is no way I was going to have anything illegal in my house nor would I anyway But I'm worried Johnny that you're going to get set up plant a gun plant drugs I can hear stories that what I don't believe Maybe in Belfast things like that would happen, but I don't know it probably would happen It was we always in the back of your mind. Yep, but what do I when you first moved to Scotland? How were you treated great brilliant? As I say at the start at the early months I did I did that the police would have let me know that they were there You know, I mean they had me just on there's our feelings That they followed me drink drain the lawson license to bust at my house several occasions And all took money from me which I got back things like that, but they were just I think they were Expected me to be this person who's going to do all these crazy things, but it didn't But obviously their job was to keep tags on them.  Yep at a ub 40 concert. Yep. How was that feeling? I was feeling I wasn't the time of pace to and I had been just released on parole my first parole And my wife then got me these tickets to go and see ub 40 because I loved ub 40 And because of the conflict barns like ub 40 wouldn't come to belfast We didn't get the likes of that because it was a dangerous place to come But now I'm pasted. It's who she's made up brilliant. They were playing in belfast happy days So get the tickets were going that night and because there was pace I thought well there's pace that means there's no more war But the my man around me was saying you can't go up there Johnny. I'm maybe sure there's pace. We'll be all right It's lovely summer's night opener concert me and the waifu go. I'm no Johnny. I need the menders I may don't need menders.  I want to But I just went into my head and traveled and lodged there so And was it was only out in parole and Well, I phoned the jail told them they couldn't go back. They couldn't believe that he'd be shot in the head Johnny you're at your work now. Come on now. You I mean look, I've been shot in the head. They go to the hospital and we're going to take the bullet out But people couldn't believe how could you get shot in the head and walk away from what I did So the person who shot you in the head are you are you're still fighting with them? No, no, they fought with me. See when they shot me in the head when I went down I thought it was a grenade with a big flash and then I just Why you seeing a film, you know, like you're shot. You stagger about and all I knew I mean, well, I'm not dead But I everything was good through my head and I go just see my wife in slow motion And the next thing I remember fighting with them, right and and they tried to get me down and remember the grace of God, I got away anyway And ironically when I got the car that that that got me to my safety Well, it turns out that because I knew through police taking steamers all these taxes But he was a catholic And when I when I get it When I get in the car, you know who I am when I say, ah, the mom was panicking. I said hospital When I realized no, don't go to hospital because if they think you're alive, they realize you're alive They could come back to the hospital and finish you off So I told him to go to shangal and he was panicking But he took me to shangal and he must have been shitting me to say And I never realized he was a catholic until after the police and told me, John, I never believed this But see that guy saved your life that the guy in the white car said he was he was a catholic Does that make you realize what you want to go to know what? It's all kind of madness and The story goes, you see that that this is what I hear because I I mean You hear stories and and then when they returned me to prison put me in a segregated jail Little catholics and provinces and that was the first time that I was in amongst catholics was hard because I was the devil to them and but some of them became good friends of mine And they told me things, you know what I mean, which was important And one of the stories that told me was this this guy shat me. Now. He wasn't a republican He was an opportunist, right? And it turns out he was he was heavy on the coke They spotted me there was Johnny at their mom will shoot him So obviously they got the cotton that don't what they had to do But this guy threw the paper down to me one day They understood news. It was a catholic guy in the jail. He says, how's your mate? And I look so it was a death thing the guy had been dead a year I said who I didn't know who shot me I'm having a clue who it was the police didn't know at that time because they thought it was main main screen republicans Have a mask on so no no no, perfect So the guy threw the thing down, but this guy had been dead a year But it was the actual turns out it was the actual guy that that shot me But he was flat out in the coke and he got paranoid and he moved to Dublin He thought that we were coming after him when we were closing in on him He hung himself left a suicide note Johnny Adorno's men's closing in on me I can't live with this anymore and he fucking hung himself. I didn't even know who he was And he thought that that that I knew who he was and we were coming Flat out in coke hung himself. Did you think that was a Sorry, just a week Did you think that was a A hit then a professional hit and you just kind of Time everybody did yep the police and all was because no mask and even at the time The people associated the loyalist who was who'd be loyal to me They were actually going out and retaliating within hours and days after I think there was so catholics were getting killed Well, just because there was shootings before yes, because they thought that that that was republicans And I think messages were sent through our political parties that was nothing to do with the IRA or mainstream republicans That's nuts. It is. Do you remember what ub 40 song it was?  Is that no snarling that I don't know Some some of the people I knew that tried to kill me have been sent to prison Some of the people in the process of trying to kill me actually killed themselves with bombs uh and just and others I think I don't know people's just Took the took the law in their own hands so to speak and I can't I believe the guy who shot you I thought it was a hit and another no no no it was just an opportunity where catholics like And he was Johnny at their stuck with no meanders just with his wife And and an opener a concert more or less in their turf and there was a big crowd of them And ironically another one the main instigator who was fighting that night who was a he was a an amateur Amateur heavyweight boxer he was one of the aggressors right but ironically he was shot dead some some years later Two guys walked in the bar with false bears and shot him dead none to do with me or none to do with the lawless movement But that that's what happened to him So the two men who were there that night at bed two met the instigator was shot dead by Obviously it must have been his own people But he was shot dead and the other guy hung himself see the people are surrounded by you Obviously it was in your home turf.  There was retaliation But I'm talking about the present moment when you get shot in the head when I get shot in the head There was no not within within ours But within the next day there was retaliation and the day after there was retaliation Nothing to do with me like but why did you drop your guard that night because I felt because it was in jail for many many years And it was I was supporting it that the peace process and it was instrumental in bringing My people along this did they agree with the peace? I thought that times have changed now. There's no more guns. There's no more bullets There's no more bombs We can live maybe not beside each other But we can at least I can go to a concert without the menders or my body armor on But I got that one wrong Did that keep you in your toes to this day? Well, see to be honest See the way I looked on it see no matter what?  It's hard to trust anyone if I'm being honest Trust yourself and you're not go wrong That is I believe that it's hard to trust anybody no matter who it is. It's Everybody has People people people can be disloyal people can have breaking points people can be jealous And there's a combination of things that makes makes think people not be Loyal or friendly or trustworthy and all these come come in the account But I've learned in life that trust no one only yourself That way obviously the catholics and Celtic Catholics in Prodistance here is in Glasgow's mostly Celtic Rangers. Yeah, how strong is it in bellfast and doubling the Celtic Rangers? As strong as people make it. Yes, exactly the same here. Do you go to the Rangers games? No, I don't go to the games. No, no, it's exactly the same Boys over here is more passionate And they're not as aggressive whereas the boys the Celtic and the Rangers people and bellfast would kill each other After no firm game. It's never happened But the wood If they had the chance if they were that close Whereas At a Rangers and Celtic game that the Celtic guys after the game they could be walking on one side of the street Where Rangers uh, Celtic scarf and the Rangers won't be walking beside them. I mean that that that that would happen that wouldn't happen back home One of them would be shook to death They're shot. Oh, it is crazy. It was That's just that's the way it was. I think it was the The conflict that made that the people so aggressive on both sides We're not talking about a handful of people here We're talking about thousands of people because thousands of people were affected by that conflict Thousands of men went through them tails both loyalists and republicans So when you're brought up in an environment where guns bombs blood and guts Obviously it'll affect you and it'll make you a hard heart mentally if not physically A hard person or a tough person a lot of people Who go through that kind of life who see Murders who see crime who see violence they tend to hit Drugs they tend to hit drink because they can't take the pain in the misery of the the conscience Through my mind where they get memories they get bad dreams for yourself. You've kind of stayed on the path We spoke earlier because see the advantage we had over back home. There was never really a drug culture and I didn't really realize how Important drugs were the people's lives until I came to Scotland It was the normal thing to do Girls done it guys done it and Belfast. We did not tolerate that It maybe happens now, but times have changed over there now, but you're right what you're saying Probably if the drugs would have been in On the go over there at the times Oh, people would have turned up because everybody was affected by the troubles. I mean I remember myself even going to school one day and A dead body Mutely at it stops 80 times or something just dumped and we shot and we seen this as a kid A dead body The tape around at the police coming and but you seen them things on a normal basis over there Do you if you ever spoke to a psychologist or anybody about the mindset? No, you just trained yourself to be I don't think I never I ever needed to what about your emotions on that Johnny if you You see things like that when you're younger.  Do you or do you just become immune to it?  No matter what you say you'll take a mental note of it and no matter what you say or do in life It stares with you for the rest of your life Now how you deal with that is entirely up to yourself. I mean, I remember the late great Billy Wright rest in peace I remember him him saying this thing about Taking another person's life He turned around said he said there's three things come with it He said the first one, which is easy Pulling the trigger which is right because if you've got a gun on your hand, you're in charge Nobody's gonna I could go in front of Mike Tyson. We're gone. I know there's only gonna be one winner That's me He said the second thing he says Be prepared to get caught and go to jail for life. Could you could you live that? But the third and most important bit he says living with it for the rest of your life And I think he was he was absolutely right and what what i'm trying to get at is that's the situation where many people Back home both florist and republicans have took human beings lives and Subsequently couldn't live with and went on to take their own life. It's that what it's the ptsd It's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. There's no manual to say this is how you live with us because The strongest men who've also became the weakest because of the stuff that they've involved in Everyone has a weakness and as I say the brain that's instilled in the brain no matter what Dastardly did if you want to call it what people who's done in life that stays with them for the rest of their life How many do you know how many funerals funerals you've been at johnny? Oh countless funerals countless friends comrades countless that's the way it was it was funeral almost every week over there Was that conflict was that much in the scheme in shankhole for like was there anything to keep the youth Occupied or was it just to condition them to be a loyalist or They were happy times and we tried as best we could as an organization To provide for the for the kids of that community because it was it was deprived communities where we came from But we tried that to put on Shows for them that they make them just we don't whatever we could on our part To give them that little bit extra in life football pitches boxes and classes stuff like that because if you know yourself if you're bored johnny You're gonna do bad shit because it keeps you occupied so things like flute barns etc etc that that got them together and got them away from We we just tried our best but over in belfast There was never a dull moment because there was always something happening the police were always raiding houses the young Kids was always attacking the police vehicles. It was burning car.  That's the way it was. It was just like a film set Year in and year out for 20 odd years 30 years when you were in shank How obviously they had the memorials on the walls and stuff a lot of them are painted off does that make you sad it doesn't date because that That was our territory and that this is the way we we we sort of way Let the rest of the world know who we were we were telling through wall murals and each different wall mural Would depict a different defense of history But come the peace process the people that sir and I they got money off the government They are as these and light them up with something more like sports or something Which is probably a good thing But to me when we put our murals up there were history Maybe the ones even the ones with the with the hooded men and the armed gunmen all it was part of history That's what happened and then and belfast for all that for such a long period of time But the the muslims are raised now and they're replaced by more I don't know sports or or card towns or Tourists and stuff go for is it safe when I was there that that that where I lived that the tourist that was It was massive, but you have to remember that the the pace had just came there so that there's still Large numbers of tourists come over there on Year in and year out, but I mean a way back then it was all millions came through like millions And where I left it was just coach loads every day. We had Even me like Cheney. I remember Chinese people long long long Johnny Johnny. Can I have a photograph? We jinx It was funny Kids but because of who I was like I was on the internet and I was globally I'll give you an example when I was in jail. I got ladders from all over the world America check every corner of the world I got ladders and it actually kept me going because the last time it was in jail They isolated at me. They kept me in a prison Wing for 24 months. Well, no other prisoner just Probably I meant mental torture. They probably thought he'll hang himself, but they were wrong I never had a visit for a full year. I never seen anyone for a year only the two screws that Made came in the morning give me my breakfast or whatever So is that try to break you? Well, I believe it was I but it never it never worked How did you how did I get through that? I got ladders from all over the world. Did they give you a letters? Okay Oh, I them screws over there. They were they were because again They used to be bad in the day. I just like Scotland, Berlin and everywhere else But when once we got the news and we started Send out a couple of e-messages to them then they just We were in charge.  I can just come back when I just even in at the start Oh, there weren't the water that was bad But anyway, so what got me through it was the letters because I Every single day I got bunches of letters And I made sure that every single letter that I got I replied to it Because if someone could just take an hour out of their time and spend 30 pay or something for a stamp the rate that the janitor I think I would have owed them that just to return it Because I wanted to watch that documentary had people for germany had trains of you and posters and probably pictures up there Well that you probably don't even have right? That's right. That's that again That was in jail. That was the german people and and they they were they were germans What I learned from them is the real loyal loyal people and they just became infatuated with me And they actually became friends with me and But that's what that made you feel well to be honest with it made me feel good It made me feel important the job. Absolutely the job that I was doing This is this is what people's looking up to you and people's respecting you for doing it So yes, it made me feel brilliant because obviously the germans and they watch your stuff and That the big guy was saying that it would if anything happens to you He's going to bring his team and kill them and he himself He was in prison for for planting the bomb under somebody's car or something But I think he's reformed now nick But they were good guys all them germans. He's still in contact with them. I haven't spoke to him on about six months Maybe a bit longer But that's the type of all people from all walks of life used to write to me Obviously because it was in the public domain so much because it's a sense of power as well If you've got somebody at the forefront who's willing to die for you that must give you some amount of power Johnny I when she even we old age pansners sand in the end five pound Do you know how that made me feel not that I needed it? But we old age pansner because you're stuck in jail sand in the five pound now Probably that's all that we woman had but to send me Who was Johnny at there five pound and supporting me? I mean that made me feel really at all sorts of support and all sorts of and it was evident in the meal I got it was just from all over the world from all walks of life How was it when you come out that when you come out of belfast you come into scotland and you did the documentary But it was a reaction then for you to have been that active to then do a documentary Was anybody trying to put the blockers or anything on it? My plans my plans was to return to belfast when it was released from prison And go and seek out the instigators who had done what they've done on me and my friends So what they done Before I could set foot in belfast they pulled me out of jail two days early Put me on an army helicopter and flew me to manchester They got me to manchester. They read me the red act, which they thought was do not go back to belfast right? No problems the next day. I was in belfast and that won the instigator store robbed the store Because I was wanting answers. I was wanting to confront these people for for what they've done But I wanted to do it on a one-to-one basis because I knew I could stand up the antibody Monde them on but when you're standing up against 10 people or 15 people Well, you're dead. Yeah, exactly. So I went the next day Against all odds and I went to One of these person stores that was going to start from the top and want this door and he wouldn't come out That was it. That was it Because you're well known. You're very well known. You know that yourself For being in a life and to be I don't like to glorify anybody But to come through the life that you've done and change your life as well that takes mass respect for anybody to do because It's difficult. But when people look up to you and you're well known all around the world The catholic prodigy thing is massive. It's not just belfast doubly in scotland. It's everywhere Do you still get Obviously in scotland now. How do people treat you here? Well, the loiless would love me the majority of the loiless would love me Right, but even right through it. I'll give you an example. There's a couple of weeks ago A guy traveled all the way from yorkshire respectable man, right all the way from yorkshire Just to have his photo taken with me and to shake my hand and he drove what four four 400 miles or something from yorkshire just to come down to scotland to get a photo taken with me and to shake my hand And that makes me feel good and that makes me but it makes these people Obviously makes them as feeling better because i've met johnny at there and i've shook his hand So yes, that makes me feel that there's people out there who think i'm a designer He books and a designer books for him. It makes me feel that yes people still Rightly or wrongly respect and adore what i've done or respect I think it's more to do a this man stood up to the ira Like like like most people should be frightened of the ira because the ira Just caused death and destruction all over the world have done it, right? But here's somebody who's prepared to go two to two with them And i think that's where i got a lot of respect and that's why even to this day some people Like like i've explained the man driving from york to just have If anybody see if you ever had grievances With anybody just now would only be one phone call away for you to sort things out to this day See to be honest see any problems that i would have i would kind of want to deal with it myself You know and then that way i could Get the satisfaction what i want and and and do what i believed is deserved for whatever That has happened because obviously if you got older as well johnny there's a Do you think to yourself right? I want a better life which you're just trying to create but you still miss the violence Do you miss the craziness?  So in my everyday life normal life now I don't I don't feel that the need to be the person that it was because i'm not engaging with the anime I don't have an anime now have anime, but they're nowhere near me They're i don't believe they're coming near me Do you have problems with people any problem that i do you have You're absolutely right what you're saying about as you get older as you get older first and foremost You don't want to go to jail because you've done enough years in jail And you realize that the important things in life like freedom freedom is very important when you're young You don't care 16 years happy days. It's for the cause But you reflect back in that now years waste it And then you think forward do i want to go to jail and you're absolutely right You would be more smarter if you were to do something now than you would have been maybe 10 15 years ago But it's kind of and it's the fear of going to jail That would make you then you probably have i had fear to go to jail because if you're in the amazing You're getting stakes in through with them legs and dogs and parties and this goes I think that makes it easier for people to go. Oh, well the front line in no care if you did them Well, I don't think it's much as if you don't care, but i think if you know you've got a prison You know it's going to be a party thing an important part of the conflict over there It was to be like like that was a badge of honor to oh i was in the maze Be for five years 10 years 20 years whatever it was That was like a badge of honor and that was to prove that you were involved in the conflict because you served time in the maze prison And that was for the power militaries. You only went there if you were ira or loilist uda uvf who's the maddest person you Listen to your stories man.  He's nutcase. He's well See for security reasons. I wouldn't I wouldn't say it on camera. Oh good. There's a lots lots of people who I would Consider to be mad My terms good, but in other terms people's turn. Well, he's a psychopath, but I wouldn't say their names on on on I always like to think everybody's get goodness in them no matter what you'll get catholics probably watch this to go on bastard You have of course of course of that man. I respect that man I I could I could say stories about catholics, but I mean people would have a probably Lesson that that the defendant out who that they would be But it made the back the hers in the back right next on like and it was unbelievable I couldn't believe that Certain catholics would think like this of me. I mean but they did And I was did you ever see the man who saves your life? Have you ever spoke to him since? No, no, no, they ever thanked them. No, because I didn't know I was just told by the police You see gotta remember I see over there. Catholics hated me. I was like the devil tell them I mean there was stories that I heard from from catholics in the jail What they used to do you mean Even their parents the kids say six seven years of age say are doing So when you want your kids in you go out and shoot me get in and they don't come in But remember the story tell me about the the man coming out and shooting to trying to get the kid in And then we're shouting Johnny a dirt's coming But uh No, but it's when I went to When I went when I came to scotland and I realized that that catholics are I mean it's not In belfast they were treated different and there's no different than a catholic in scotland or a catholic in belfast But the differences are it was the conflict that we were brought on brought up in And enshrined the hatred and both the catholic and the Protestant And that's just the way it was that you don't have that here You have the old firm game for old firm games and you don't think the hatred and I'm glad it's because remember We lived like scotland all them years ago in the 60s Catholics and Protestants were friends neighbors Until the civil rights came so scotland scot and that's sometimes worries me. I would hate to think that scotland could You think it could turn into that? Well, I hope it never would be but that's what happened in northern ireland And how did that make you feel johnny when that became that you put in place when you were friends with catholics and then No, were you friends with anybody then you you realize you couldn't speak to them All right, and it was just that's not just me but everyone you just didn't we didn't see catholics They lived in the falls. We lived in the shingle the only time you seen catholics if you knew them Was if you were in belfast city center, which was neutral So when you became and then when I became right in amongst catholics was when I was in mcgabrie prison And it was hard for me because I mean you're standing at one big shower Serves six of his five catholics. They're all talking to each other. They're not talking to me All right, but then you did once my personality shone through and once this myth Became clear that johnny's not that's big crazy would eat the head off you know because you're a catholic They realize that he's a good luck Some of them really became good friends with me and they liked me although they were warned off I mean I can remember One one catholic lord who was he went out in parole and he was friendly with me in the jail And he came to the end of his sense even down in parole But the ira had got him and had strung him up and they'd whipped him and they accused him of passing on intelligence To me about where ira may not live which was untrue But this poor count was hung up and fucking whipped because he was speaking to you because somebody in the jail Said that he was passing on information to me, which is understandable as well Of course it was but we got he wasn't passing on and I know what I've asked him for information I got my eyes opened up in there and I realized that the catholics like there were no difference than in the progressions Of course no, but again, I welcomed out that condition and when you're conditioned to hate It's like where the army's no matter what army is you're conditioned to go and fight for someone else The way we looked at it the ira and the catholic community support them So therefore they're all one and when the ira has come into your community and plant the bomb and killin 10 people You hate the ira and then the next day they're doing the same again So you hate the people that support them here's the catholics. So that's just the way belfast was it was just a real real hatred and Many loyalists and republics in scullin would understand that because they they would be Fizzers the belfast but The wider majority of the people in scullin don't really understand how high fishes and how cruel it was and if they did really know The the full details and facts and the kind of understand the wee bit more clear they would go Well, is that what happened and it's all right for people fighting for the cause catholics prodigies But it's the innocent ones who lost their life the kids the families and there was That that's what happens and when when someone's shot or blew up and all it's it's you're right That's that the entire family's affected and their friends and it just spreads like it's not just the one person It's affected and then people's affected for the rest of their life And that that's that's the conflict and that's what the cause that that's what it was it was it was horrible Must have been tough As well for anybody growing up there and it's all right for people to say and sit and think That's craziness and that but you's are you's what in your mind? He's a thing for a cause and user mind is a thing for something So it's difficult for anybody to get out that life Is there anybody as high profiles yourself that's got out and changed their life and oh don't get me wrong There's been cases of people that that's mean turned good living There's people that that's turned their life around walked turned it back and power militaries But it was hard You to turn turn your back and heart power militaries could power militaries controlled your life So to speak and if you were in at the deep end you couldn't just leave walk and walk and And leave the power militaries whenever you want it even to this day They're they're they're still there and the people can't leave it.  No, not really because I'm living a normal life in Scotland as I say And and all my years in Belfast I never had remotely had the the life that I'm having in Scotland because of who I was like it was my choice But I couldn't do I couldn't go to a cinema I couldn't go to a concert if there was a concert. Well, I want the concert got shot. I know But baxing I love baxing, right? I couldn't watch back on Belfast Although it was the only sport and in Belfast and Northern Ireland that brought the two communities together And that was the only written rule that the Boxers from the shaggle can go to the falls and face versa and that was a good thing And I love boxing and I would have loved to want the box boxing offence But I couldn't have went I couldn't have went down I remember going to a bodybuilding thing seminar and I brought about 30 men and lots of them were all You know what I mean? Yeah, do you think you missed out on a lot then? Absolutely Absolutely, I didn't realize that until I came here And England and Scotland the things that I've done here the fights the shows just everything The natural things in life the things that make you feel as if you're alive And even my kids From a selfish point of view. I was in jail when they were all in their younger years So you don't get that bit bond with your children on on an art visit a week And I missed the bond when my kids all grown up through my fault because I was in prison But now they've got a wheel out here. He's seven years of age. I've got that bond and it's good You want to make amends and want to make amends, but that's not going to stop As I said earlier on it was only three years ago. There was people conspired to murder me There's still people if the opportunity arose would would probably take an opportunity Going to be honest, John.   Why are they doing that? I know why they're doing it I know why they want to do it. I know why they hate me. I know why they like me. I know why they love me So it's I'll take the rough with the smooth death smiles to his all only thing you can do smile back. It's um Life, we don't know where the fuck's round the corner. We never know what's round the corner and that's right And what's for you will not go by you've just got to keep trying and keep plodding on in life And it must be difficult because if anybody ever tried to take your life If they did take your life, then they're going to be held a hero Absolutely. And that's what I've always said and that that would probably give people the initiative or an individual And they should have to do it but to do it and and and and in scotland and england and every Feedback that I've got has been positive except them boys who are here wanting to kill me or can talk to me kill me Or conspiring to kill my but everything else has been good. Have you ever wrote a book or anything, johnny? I've wrote my own autobiography and there's been several books written about me But not by me where people is ciced in on my name like police officers And women there was a woman who'd read a book And over the mad dog was a police officer who read a book. They just Featured me probably through the book. Obviously that was the sale sale his book Um, there's been other books again as I said About me but not not by me never came forward to do a follow I've done documentaries and I've signed a contract a contract's open in case There's an opportunity for a film How did the name mad dog come about I don't know I hear that name that Do you that that that's a dog a mad dog is a dog it foams at the mouth That was labelled by me by the by the then r.u.c. and the media Mad dog mad dog. Yeah, it's a cringe with that name. I hear it. I hear it It's not really used as much now. Although. Well, nobody calls me mad. Nobody close to me. Maybe my enemies mad dog But I I prefer johnny So you didn't make that so that was the name. No the media the media the media And it does tell you hear that name. I think it was so much story and I was just having a laugh with some journalists It was from the guardian to it was a heavy weight for paper and So I was giving it when I'd give her enough, but I think this was all stage managed by the by the then in our council So johnny you give her a lift so I gives her a woman a lift and I'm just having banter wear and she says uh Did you ever have a catholic in your car and I says I No, did you ever give a catholic a lift in your car? I says, all right only a dead one and then in the boot No, just joking. Fuck.  Yes. We didn't know what to expect Yeah, but that's not that's people people realize won't see that mad dog thing right away That's that puts a scar on somebody's man.  He's mad. But when people get the number That's not that guy's not like that. Oh, you don't come across I'm not if you crossed you then I'd imagine. No, well, don't get me wrong. See what we were doing in Belfast I mean it wasn't going to Sunday school every Sunday What we were doing is that we were engaging with the anime and when you engage him in the anime We weren't going with sponge mallets. You know what I mean? How did you so with the guns and the bombs who had was was it The same or do people have more than others? Well, I think the professional area had more sophisticated weapons than loyalists They had they had they had guns from Gaddafi Samtax from Gaddafi Loyalists had to procure their weapons from whatever sources they could and I think uh Just like assault rifles and machine guns and small arms Enough enough to engage did they keep the conflict going for it? It's crazy to think that there was a war for a long time. We just It was a dangerous war. It was dangerous and it was frightening. It was really frightening What was the outcome for both parties for freedom? Was it just because did that just go the From my opinion is the killings have stopped Which is more the most important thing and hopefully as time goes on the bridges can be built Belfast is a better place now There's more jobs. There's more Belfast was a ghost town 20 odd years ago, and I mean a ghost town But now it's thriving more opportunities, which is the main thing less opportunities. Yep.  That was your life. It's just to be yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was the thing to be It was like supporting Rangers or Celtic over here It's the thing to do if you're a Pratt or a Catholic the thing to do over there was either join the IRA or join a UDA And engage in the conflict which is less opportunity So again, it always comes down to the conditioning Johnny to think that you've grew up in that life Do you think it's normal but no for you Yourself now going for the future. What's your do you have plans? Do you have visions? I'm just harping life now. I just uh, just living the normal quiet life. Just uh, get my wee boy Uh, just spend as much time with him and quality time and forward to England to see the rest of my family who's an older family down in uh, Manchester, so I travel to see them's quite a lot and Just enjoy life as much as it can. All right, good mate. But for again, Johnny for I know your high profile name to you born my show today. I just shows you how far my show is coming, mate So, uh, well, it's been a pleasure and uh, I appreciate it mate. Not everything for the future Thank you very much. Yes, you're welcome. Thank you


So now we're still moving through, we're covering imposition chronologically, right? So first cognates, then loans, then foreign transcription, and now we get into the middle Chinese period, and it's impositioned from Song Nian's The Prime Tables. So I'm going to introduce you to the Song Nian's The Prime Tables. I think this will be a little bit short, but we'll see. And then this is the last one in position, and then we move back to transposition. Okay, so the The Rhyme Tables, we have two Rhyme Tables, and they're basically identical. The Yun Jing published in 1161 by Mr. Zhang Linger, and the Qi Yin Dui, somehow I'm missing a bit of a vowel there. Also published in 1161, so it was a good year for Chinese Rhyme Tables. And it was published by Mr. Zhang Chao, but he published this, in my opinion, this whole Hongjue and Taipei, whereas the Qi Yin Dui is just kind of thrown into this much larger work. Yeah. Okay, so what do these things look like? I'm in my mouth over here. So what information is given in a Rhyme Take? Well, the Rhyme Category, which is called the initial category, which is called Shogun Moon, the rank, we will discuss what all of these things are in a moment. And then whether or not the syllable has a medial W, which in Chinese terminology is Poco, or has a medial W, and Kaiko, or does not have a medial W. Okay, so this is a page from the Yun Jing. So now you can imagine yourself opening the Yun Jing and seeing this. So I will go through how to read it and how to use it now. And then this is the same chart in the Qi Yin Dui. And actually, if you just look, like, keep track of the character, like this character there, but keep your eye on it, and then you see that it's where it goes. It's there. So it's the same. Yeah, they're, I mean, they're not exactly less work. In principle, the stuff on the page should be the same in each one. But of course, I haven't checked it exactly. But they have different terminology across top, if you notice. And maybe I have this on another slide. These ones are acrophonic, just I think the correct English word, which means is to say it's said like, bake for B and fish for F and whatnot. So it gives you a word as the name of the sound that begins with that sound. Whereas these ones actually specify the place and manner of articulation. So they don't say, you know, bake for B. They say, bilateral voice stopped. And that's one, actually, I mean, for the my experience, that's the major difference between these two books is just what terminology. This one uses actual phonetic terminology. And then this one uses this acrophonic terminology. Okay, so let's zoom in. So we're looking on the upper left side of chart 23. And then here you have the names of the rhyme categories. And here you have the initial categories. And then this syllable says that or this character says that this character is pronounced with this rhyme and this initial. And there's a circle that means phonetically impossible in Chinese. Now, then in principle, you only get one character for each syllable type, right? Or for each actual syllable, I shouldn't say syllable type because it will confuse you with what I was saying about the shishen series, but you should say like, okay, there's, there's, you know, if there are homophons, like bots, meaning, you know, piece of computer code or box being the past tense of by those will not occur. Only one of them will occur in, in, in the spot, you know, has rhyme bot and initial beat, right? Okay, so, so here I have transliterated or, yeah. Well, you see where I go, right? I go from this to this. So this is mine.  And so you get a sense of what's going on in terms of different rhyme categories, you know, the on, on, on, and then again, again, again. Okay. That I have anything to highlight here? No, okay. So now I'm looking at chart one here, close up. And then I am zooming in on it. So I think it's nice to look at chart one because it's famous. Yeah. This word that means east is the first character in the rhyme tables. And it's also the first character in the rhyme books. Okay. And then I will just point out and maybe explain this some other time, but this character should not be here. This should be a blank. Yeah. So there are mistakes in the rhyme tables. And then, and I find that quite interesting because they people don't talk about it, at least in my experience very much. But of course, it's, it proposes any interesting sort of epistemological analysis, you know, we, we are using this as our primary source. So what do we mean by it has mistakes? Well, you can see I did it. This is a mostly empty row. And now I think you should make everything mostly empty entirely empty that would oftentimes itself be a mistake. But that's the kind of thing that you do. That I think is where you would start to say, basically, what we mean by it's a mistake is it's inconsistent with the overall pattern that this document puts forward. Yeah. And in more technical terminology, it's division three, which you can tell from its initial. And yet they put it in division four. But let's now look at this. So, yeah, here I'm just basically, I'm so showing you two different pages and I'm going to talk about, right? So here's page 23. And there is, and here's page one. And there is, now we go back to 23 and rhyme category. So I'm just made this character page so that you can see, okay, this character is in this rhyme category. How to read this chart. And then here on the first page, this character is in this right. And as you see, then, which is why I'm having to look at more than one page, here we have more rhyme categories. Yeah. Here, this part of this page has four right categories. Whereas here, this part of this page, the same part of a different page only has one right category. Okay. You mean across the top? The initials? Yeah, they're the same on every page. Yeah, yeah. So, so now let's look at, now, so we've, I've said that, so, so let's say, let me do the backup too. And so we looked at this. So this hand character, it's in the sun rhyme, sun rhyme. And now we look at its initials, we go up, and then you see it's chained. That means it's voiceless, unaspirated. And it's ho yin, which means that it's some kind of laryngeal. So it's a voiceless, unaspirated laryngeal. Oh, do we, do we don't? So do we have one more? Yes, definitely. And now let's look at this one. So here is this, this one. And it is a liquid resin. So liquid, this is a resin. So this is not chained, this is chained zuo, which means so so zuo is means voids, and chained voiceless. So I understand this terminology is being extremely clever, because they're saying that resonance don't distinguish between voicing and voiceless. So if it's, if it's, so I mean, the terminology is very compact, but it's sort of neither voiced nor voiceless, or both voiceless. And I mean, I think neither is better. But let's say, you know, if we allow ourselves to check for one thing, let's say it's, it's just neutralized, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's both the god, well, chained zuo, and I don't know, is it the ring zong, or this? Yeah, so basically this row says the, what the manner, and this row says the place, right? So here we say this manner is recommended, place is liquid. And then, but I understand this question, but yeah, it's not really agreeable. Right now I'm interested in, so to me, yeah, the, or the why. Well, this one's not of, no, this is a, well, they, they think yuh is the little ring zong. Okay, so sorry. Sorry. I'd be interested in learning about how, how the Chinese phonetic theory developed what they, what they drew from the Indic tradition, and what was developed, what was developed locally. I mean, the truth is there, like as far as I know, the secondary literature on this is not very satisfying. So everyone agrees that this is a, well, let's say the minimum, everyone agrees that this kind of phonetic terminology is post-Buddhist, and is, but let's say that doesn't say that there are influence, that just says some of your absolute phenomenon, right? But then there's also some evidence that it comes out of a Buddhist milieu. So I think I'll get to this, but the, the first guy who lists, or not necessarily the first guy who lists initial, the initials, like the, if you like the phonemes, initial phonemes, maybe it wasn't the first, the first one we have evidence of, who was also traditionally credited with inventing it, was a Buddhist monk. Yeah. So there is that kind of strong circumstantial evidence of a, of a relationship between Buddhism and Chinese sort of phonetics and phonology. And of course, if you just look at the initials, you know, it's sort of kakakana, chachajana, fadadana. Yeah. So you're like, oh yeah, okay. I know where I am here. I'm in India. Yeah. But, but like exactly why they say muddy for voice or clear for voiceless or extra clear for aspirate. That's, I don't know of any literature that has satisfactorily, you know, connected the Indic tradition with the, the emerging Chinese tradition. Yeah. So if, if you want to write about that for your assignment, you know, that would be a good one. But actually, I don't, you know, don't expect to get there far. Yeah. You know, I think it's the problem is, it's, it's a period of, of Chinese history long enough ago and technical enough that the source materials are a little bit thin on the ground. You know, we're not going to see someone like commenting on Indic phonology or something from the third or fourth century, right? What's the literal translation of the moving up, some of that articulation, like what's their word or place of articulation? Yeah. I mean that thing that you kind of like to do, it's great for that kind of function. This one, this is phon sound two. I can sound two with that. Okay. So it needs not be L and in fact this one is not L, right? Yeah. So, but, but it actually doesn't distinguish these two, does it? Because they're both, yeah, they're both Chinese law. Yeah. What is the first thing? It's money. Tervet. Oh, sorry. Oh, I mean the, the laryngeal category. Oh, this whole, who can tell me actually, I just think of it as being laryngeal. Right? Yeah, right. It's like, it's getting right. Yeah. Laryngeal. Yeah, it means throat. Yeah. And then there are two, I mean there are two two words I'll just also mention. This one that we've seen, this one, which means these things, right? Yeah. And then the word for dealers is, is they use another word for tooth, which is molar. And we presume they call dealers molars for two reasons. One molars are at the back of their mouth, but also the word molar itself started with a velar. So it has this kind of acrophonic component to it as well. But you know, it's not from a, from a, from the perspective of articulatory phonetically, it's not very satisfactory to call your velars molars. You should call them velars, right? Although I don't know what the, what the Chinese word for the velum is. Anyhow, so now we, what am I doing here? My, oh yes. So now the so-called ranks, I'm just showing you how you can pull this information out of the, out of the rhyme tables. So you see we have these four rows. So those four rows are row one, row two, row three, and row four. Yeah. So we would say that this hung hand is ranked four. Yeah. And I really want to emphasize that's what ranked four means. It means is in row four. Yeah. It's a, it's I think really best thought of as a, as a fact about the misampage of these rhyme tables. And then the question is, what's, you know, is, is that just because they didn't have room to make a really wide book? Or are they trying to capture some phonetic information? I think everyone agrees that they're trying to capture some phonetic information. But I think if you ask yourself, what was that phonetic information when these rhyme tables were written, then you're talking about middle Chinese and it's not very interesting to me. And, and there's, there's a huge literature about that. Yeah. So you can, you know, jump into that with both feet if you want. But from my perspective, it's enough to say whatever the thing that was being indexed by these rows is, that's what we are labeling with rank one, two, three, and four. And then I will also just make a termological point that I'll come back to later, which is, I think it's very helpful as soon as we're getting ranks and divisions, we haven't gotten the divisions yet, but they're both called Deng in Chinese. We're talking about the rhyme tables and divisions. We're talking about the rhyme books. We haven't gotten to yet. Okay. So, and then here is, you know, just to show them on this other page. This is in rank one, this one. Okay. So there you got it. I'll just breeze through it once more, once more. I think that will be nice. Yeah. So here is what it actually looks like. Here's my transcription. Then here's the first page. Here's my transcription. And then we have you look on the left for the rhyme. You look on the left for the rhyme. You look up for the place and manner. You look up for the place and manner. And then you, I mean here I'm arguing to the right, but it's not actually marked explicitly in the document. You just see that there are four rows. Right. And then if it's in row four, then it's ranked four. And if it's in row one, then it's in rank one. Okay. What we're talking about is that we need to slide, we should be able to tell you this is a two-back. Yeah. So one, just one. Okay. Yeah. So if we take this character on row and we do, like, we try to align it and we take that as the ground and then we take the rhyme books and then we should write it in, right. But it's not in the line of row, but it's one left. So there's a blank space. Are you talking about this, this? Yeah. Why is the, why is the end not one place right? Because it's the right of, of, yeah. Wait. Which one are you, which one are you worried about? This one, this one. This one. This one. Why is this one not here exactly? Oh, that is a really good question. And the answer is that, that the, so they're in a couple of languages. Well, no, I need to say what's in a couple of languages. The rhyme tables sort of more or less explicitly because I don't, because, because they're not labeled differently here, right. But like, like, well, let me start over again. The practice to these books lists all the initials and they list 36 variables. But you don't get 36 across the top. You only get like 21 across the top, I think. And that's because some of them are in a bit of distribution. So they found a more convenient way of presenting. Yeah. And actually, there's no totally explicit way to, to map those 21 on to those 36. It's like, you just kind of have to know. Yeah. But it's pretty easy. So in those 36, they distinguish, if you like, two voiceless, sorry, two voiced, beel and fricatives. Yeah, one parallelized, one not parallelized. Yeah. So, so, so if you like this, so, so this initial, and this initial followed by an I, are distinct from the perspective of the 36 initials of the Middle Chinese rhymes tables. Now, the question is, why haven't I written them somehow different, even if it's just kind of sub one, sub two or something. Yeah. The reason is because I'm basically following Baxter's Middle Chinese. And he doesn't distinguish them because they're in complimentary distribution. And they're not distinguished in the rhyme books. Okay. So that, that's the answer. Right. So these are other phones that if you were to protect the spectra, also I need to look at, bring up this really empty row. Yeah, I would, like, I don't want to make larger claims than, than being about, you know, about these two. Yeah. But like, let's say from, from an earlier perspective, you can put them in the same row, but then which row you put them in. But that would, that would be a somewhat difficult question. You wouldn't actually want to do that at this point in Chinese history. Yeah. What I should have done is somehow, you know, written one with a gamma, like, because I was talking about Middle Chinese. But in fact, I was hoping that no one would pay any attention to anything except the really large character. But let's say, I mean, another thing that becomes a sort of philosophical thing is which of these things that the Chinese are telling us about in their rhyme tables should be seen as phonies. Yeah. And it's clear that, let's say, these two kinds of voice field of circulators should not be seen as two separate phonies. Yeah. But they must have been salient enough aliphons that when the authors of these books said, how many initials do they have, they distinguish them. Yeah. Do you see why it's clear and muddy or the particular books? Well, I mean, like, I don't know if you make this sound, but it's clear. And if you make this sound, but it's money, right? I mean, like, what I would say is, let's say, I mean, this works. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So here's what's like these two. Okay, what's one on here? This one being marked as voice. Yeah. Yeah. And this one being marked as neither voice nor voice list, which is the way to understand it. We're seeing this as some kind of yeah. Yeah. So if you'd like voice field of circulators in polarized syllables are seen as like a second kind of yeah, by the document itself. Yeah.  It's, it's voice dealer frigates being totalized to yeah. Right. But it doesn't merge with the initial. So that's maybe interesting. But anyhow, you know, so I think I did this already. Right. Yeah. Okay. So now I'm just going through the different pieces of information you can pull from the ranking. So we did run category, we did initial, and we did rank. So the only one left is medial w, right? So how do you tell whether a word is medial w. So here is the close up of the right side of page 23. And we're looking at this information. Yeah, this is kind of, let's, let's say it's metadata about the whole page. Okay. So now I've translated it here. And let's see the easiest part is it says 23rd, because it's page 23. Yeah. So that's, you know, you can see that it says 23. Yeah. So that's the page. Yeah. Now, what is this outer turn? No one knows, actually. The right tables call some pages outer turn and some pages inner turn. And at least from the perspective of all Chinese reconstruction, whatever that distinction is, we totally ignore it. So, you know, another thing you might want to write your table about is what does this outer turn inner turn mean? Yeah, maybe it just means verso recto or something. Yeah. But what we're excited about here is where it says open. So here it says open, it's saying this whole page has no medial w. Now let's just prove to ourselves that's true. Well, there you go. No medial w, right? I mean, that may be proving that it's true is circular because I'm not putting medial w is there because it says not to, right? But we're at least being consistent with our middle Chinese transcriptions. Okay. And then here is the first page, which is inner turn. So now we've seen an outer turn and an inner turn. But this one is also open. And now let's see x, x. Okay. And then you say, oh, there's a lot of w's there. No, but they're not medial w's, are they? That's a way that Baxter indexes certain rhymes. Basically, there are more rhyme distinctions before velar finals. And so we add this w to sort of index these extra rhymes before velar finals. But it's still a kyco because it's not a medial w. Now, so I was just showing you page 23 and page one because I've been showing you page 23 and page one. But now they're both kyco. So I need to prove that in fact some kyco pages exist, right? So here we go. This is page 24, which is an outer turn and it's closed. So now we look at it. And yeah, sure enough, there's medial w here. And then some of you say, well, wait a second, there are no medial w's with labial initials. And I would say, yeah, don't let it bother you because they're already labial, right? Or to put it another way, the kyco distinction is neutralized with labials. Now actually, if the, I'll say the rhyme books, this is right, sometimes like put some syllable, some label, like some label on the syllable get put in hookah and some get put in kyco. And that is reflected in Baxter's transcription. So you will see things like p, w, a and whatnot, but it's not funny. So that's kind of just keeping track of a philological artist. Okay, so now here is our, our poko example. And now one thing that bothers me that I haven't seen people write about it very much is like, if you just look up, maybe I'll just, you know, not be looking at that picture by yet. If you just look up a character, like this one, maybe in some standard, like a graphical source, like the internet, there's a, there's a six character way of representing its pronunciation. So you get what is its rhyme category? What is its initial? What is its grade? Or yeah, I'll say rank. What is its rank? What else am I missing? Is it book or kyco? Oh, what is its tone? Am I missing one? I don't know what it is. But yeah. So, so the way you kind of spell a civil syllable in middle Chinese is by, I give the head character, that's like the character I'm interested in. And then I give six characters that tell me it's rhyme category, it's initial category, it's whether or not it has a media or what its tone is, right? So there's the standard six character way of spelling. Now, if you look that up in any source, you only get two categories, hukou and kyco, either it has a medial or it doesn't have a medial, right? But if you look at the actual primary sources, they also have this, this category, which is open closed. Yeah. So, so no one talks about this much. It's considered sort of too detailed, too small fry to worry about. But I was, and I don't know what this is. And I'm curious about that. And happy if someone writes their assignment about it. But I did go ahead and just check like, okay, here's a hukai page. And this is what I get. And so I don't know, maybe it's this particular rhyme, schwa, sort of some kind of rounded schwa before dealers. And I just wanted to throw this in there to acknowledge the complexity of the primary sources. They, the primary sources do acknowledge a an open closed set. But we don't talk about it. We don't deal with it much. And there are apparently, you know, philological ways to decide whether or not these are closed or open. And in fact, in this case, they are, they don't have a medial. So we wouldn't, you wouldn't see these, these characters being described as hukou, you would see them being described as kyco, even though the yunjing actually puts them in this funny, you know, neither fish nor foul category. Okay, so I just wanted to sort of like, and one of the things I want, I'm doing generally, of course, you may notice is highlighting things that I see as problematic in the hopes that maybe, you know, you'll look into the more, or at least in order to not, you know, present things as being more tidy than they actually are. Yeah. Okay. Could it be a, could it be a distinction, a distinction between yoda-sized and non-yoda-sized? I noticed an eye in there. Is there an eye in all of them? No, the eye is only in the third division, which, sorry, in the third ring, which you will see is always the case. Okay. The, I mean, now that you pointed it out, just look at row three. Oh, well, nothing there. Row three, lots of eyes. Now, row three, lots of eyes. Yeah. We actually, that's what the eye means in our transcription. It means is in row three. I mean, it's a little bit more complicated than that because they're doing ranks and divisions, but we haven't gotten that to that yet. For now, basically, type B, because we learned that already, type B, there's an eye. What that means is it's in row three of the Ryan tables. Here it is. Also, let's say you don't have any eye. Yes. But that's not in the, in the, in the kind. Well, so now let's just go back because we had that here. So this, so this one, the very first, yeah, the very first one is this one. Yeah. It's categorized as open. Yeah. But a very similar looking rhyme, but this time with the vowel schwa is categorized as open slash closed. So, I mean, that was when I was looking at it, that was also what I thought is it's like, it has something to do with the, there is some rounding going on, but it's not in the media. Anyhow, I don't know. Yeah. And if you talk to anyone who is other than me, they will say, this is just like who cares? Like this is a tiny issue that was solved ages ago. Just if you want to know whether a character is hypo, hook, hook, hook, hypo, or hook, hook just look it up anywhere. And, and this is a reason why we have dictionaries from after 1161. These problems that have worked out. But, you know, I, again, I just think it's kind of, I don't know, personally, I think it's important to, you know, return to the primary sources and sort of figure out what this, what this house of cards are built on, right? So, so, so that's why I'm drawing your attention to this complication, right? Okay, so, yeah, I've sort of gone through this already, but so we have unrounded, rounded, and then I'm going to call them semi-rounded, although, you know, we're going to pretend those don't exist. And yes, and then, and then now I just want to make a methodological observation that I have made before anyway, but this, you know, I'm showing you these transcriptions, especially for the banner of you who, who can read the Chinese characters. But even if you can read the Chinese characters, you're probably not reading them in your mind as middle Chinese. So I think the transcriptions are helpful. But of course, showing the transcriptions to show you what the document is showing you is circular, right? So, so now I just want to actually give some evidence that the, the hookah are actually rounded, yeah? So here we go. These are Kypo syllables, and these are hookah syllables, and the middle Chinese is, you should understand is as just recording the fact that these words occur on a page of the Eugene that is marked as Kypo. And these transcriptions are recording the fact that those characters appear on a page that is marked hookah.  But then if we looked at the Sino-Vietnamese readings or the Mandarin readings, you will say, okay, it's a pretty good arbitrary index to choose, yeah? Both Sino-Vietnamese and Mandarin have some needle word there, and the same two variety of Sino-Vietnamese, and then they don't have the word on this side. So, so I guess one thing I want to stress here is you have to look outside the rhyme tables actually in order to give a phonetic meaning to the Kypo and the hookah.  If closed is enough, I mean lip rounding for you and open is enough to me to know lip rounding, then you don't have to look at this evidence. But I wanted to throw it in there because I think that that's a little less clear to me than, than actual analysis of place and manner of articulation. So there you go. Anyhow. So that's it for, yeah. All right, these, these rhyming books. Yeah. Yeah, you're asking about the match with the Sanskrit tradition? Yeah. Yeah.  So, I mean, so that's, I think that's not a coincidence, right? I don't know what the other tables you showed. It's, it's nasal's voice. That's because you read from right to left. Oh, yeah. Yeah, problem. It's so cool. Yeah. That's, yeah, that's the answer. And open was with or without W? Open is without W. All right. That's also what you called the dealers before the arrangements, please. Well, it's grouping together with those. All right. Yeah. I mean, the way it looks to me is they sort of, they have a whole bunch of sounds that the Sanskrit tradition doesn't make obvious where to put them. Although actually, yeah, it's not such a case. Yeah, it's quite near the end. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know about this. Like how did the index, where, how did, you know, what, what class are young and disarga and age put into in Sanskrit from a lot of the theory on my business. But actually, like, let's say, yeah, or I don't know, I'm going to go to learn here, but like, what's the, what's the place of articulation and age, right? There's two schools thought about this. One is it's a blog and one is that it has no place of articulation, right? And I do think that yeah, is some somehow, like, like, let's say, maybe we should be kind of semi hours or something like that. Well, from the fact that this voice leader that becomes a girl, it's logical to put the amount of videos. Yeah, we don't, they put it amongst the laryngals, right? Like, we should say we, we have the video pretty good. Yeah. So the real, the proper Vila cricketers go with the Vila's, but then this parallelized Vila cricketers goes with the glottal stop, the, and the, and the yeah. And I think the, and the, the, the, the, the X. Yeah. So anyhow, I'm going to stop talking about the lime tables now. Yeah. Unless anyone strongly objects to that. Okay. And then the point for the reconstruction of all Chinese is that just this is the first time in Chinese history, it will get systematic phonetic information about how pronunciations are yeah, what, what, how things are being pronounced.  There's a lot of interpretation we have to do on our side. But in this case, they've done that, the analysis, and we're just trying to kind of represent the analysis, which is why I was saying, right, we need to class that we can basically take middle Chinese as if it were as if it were a tested in a romanization. What's the old Chinese source of this? Let's see if you can just repeat that. And what's the old Chinese source of this? It's a, it's a, let's say it's a, I mean, that it depends on the historical at what point in history we're talking about. But basically, it's the same as the, there's really no distinction between these two voice field categories. So they both have the same word. Although we did mention that if they, if they don't, the default reconstruction for that one in the vaccine cigar system is the uvular G. Yeah. I'll put another super question. Yeah. Initial W's doesn't occur because there's always something to report. Yeah, it doesn't occur. Yeah. There is no, there in middle Chinese, there is no initial W. In old Chinese, according to vaccine cigar, there is no initial W where they reconstruct a uvular, a labial, your voice labial, uvular stop. Shuffler reconstructs a W.


Welcome to the 2016 NCHA Futurity. I'm here with Jodi McLaughlin, the winner of the limited non-pro. Jodi wrote something to believe in and scored a 222. Congratulations to you Jodi. Thank you. Awesome score. Yes, thank you. It was a lot of fun. So how are you feeling coming into the event? You know I was taken by surprise a little bit. I wasn't just planning on showing her in the non-pro. Unfortunately we had a little tough luck and open and so I decided to show her in the non-pro and we just we really didn't have any great draws going in so we just kind of survived every round to advance as much as we could and the semi-finals we you know we led the semi-finals with the 17 half and she was really good and right after the buzzer I kind of had a cow that I could really ride her and I told Brett I said wow that was really fun right after the buzzer and so then when I had a good draw in the finals he told me you know just come cutting and have fun and so we could really drive up and just have fun there and she showed off.  You know I wrote her a lot early on as far as I got to work or some because we thought she would be my non-pro horse but then she was so nice that she was definitely Brett's open horse and you know I've ridden her all the time getting her ready and everything but I had not worked her a great deal before this. Now he had a bit of bad luck showing but you've obviously done extremely well with with something to believe and tell us a little bit about her. She's been incredible to us. We've had her since the very first saddle was put on her as a two-year-old. Buffalo Ranch, Brett owned her and Brett worked for Buffalo Ranch so he trained her. She was put in the two-year-old sale twice once at the derby when they did their dispersal sale once at the fertility as she no sold both times and we purchased her after the fertility last year for ourselves and we just have known all along that she was an incredible horse and you know we got to show it off finally. She lived up to her name. She's definitely been something to believe in. You had a big field. You came out in the second set. I guess Peter Ryan had kind of set the benchmark at the 219 right off the bat. What were you feeling about you know what you really had to do? You know I was really confident going in. I just kind of treated it more like a weekend event and I've gotten to show a lot of weekends this year and so I just wanted to drive way up and I knew my mare would do the rest of it for me. I just needed to get her shown and get her cut clean and so that's what we did. You know our first cow was a little more cow than what we thought it was going to be but she never missed it. She just went off across there and stopped every single time and came back through and you know that cow could have been one that we had a lot of misses and a lot of penalties there but she never missed it a single time so it was more credit earning than anything. Now you had the semifinals the same day. How much of a concern is it to know that you have to show a horse twice in the same day? You know when I looked at the schedule I was a little concerned about that but fortunately this little mare that we call Kate she has got a great motor on her so it really wasn't a problem. She has been laying down most of the day today. She's getting a good little rest but she really she took it great. You wouldn't think she was a three-year-old honestly the way she's just physically fit and mature you would think she's four or five at least so it really wasn't a problem for her. Now this is not the first title you've won in the Will Rogers you have an amateur title from about ten years ago is that right? Years ago I've only shown in the Will Rogers twice since 2006 when I won the derby on Platinum Bob and the last ten years I've not gotten a show a whole lot. I've been raising babies and helping Brett and starting a business so. Sounds like he needs to put you on some more horses. It was a lot of fun I was glad to be back in the showpin this year I was very blessed. I bet all your students are very proud of you too. Yes I have a wonderful staff at school that took care of things while I was out showing last week in the world finals and then in the three-year-old and then this week in the finals and they they sent me pictures constantly of them watching the webcast on the big screen so it was fun to see. Well congratulations thanks for joining us. Thank you I appreciate it.


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