Music, motion, generating, attention. Today we're going to talk about Charles Manson. This has been a long-awaited video for a lot of us. Greg, we're going to tell you about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, so this is a first long format interview he was given that he gave after he was in prison 10 years earlier for the death of nine people. And if you don't know the Manson story, go back and look. It was cult-like. He had people who went out and killed nine people in Los Angeles and caused a wave of terror. When you and Mel write a book, what are you going to talk about? What are you going to try to bring out of your book? I never even thought of anything like that. I'd have to give that some thought. I was doing this on Mel's request. He wanted to write the book. I don't particularly care to explain nothing to you. I don't look up at you for any reason to bring my report card home anymore. Does that make sense? Well, no, what I'm trying to find out is what would you like to bring out in the book that can teach other people? What can you teach other people? That's what I'd like to know. What do you think you can teach other people? That's what I'd like to know, too. I know how to be reborn and start all over and start all over. I don't start all over with the same old same old. I just start all over. Even though I might be old, I'm still brand new every day because I do one day at a time just like that old convict used to tell me. Isn't that what he used to say, Mel? One day at a time. So I've learned to live my life. One day at a time. Alright, Chase, what do you got? What you just saw right here is a super common behavior in cult leaders all around the world. They repeat questions back to their followers, then use this weird silence and repetition to pretend that there's some actual wisdom in the remarks there. It's kind of like a shell game where they're playing hide the intellect, except there is not much. This question really got him. He's going to emotional accessing this downright for a baseline, which is pretty unusual for his baseline. You can see him dive back down to that downright eye position several times, which is emotional. He's repeating phrases and just parroting this fabricated wisdom that he used to build this following. He's saying we're reborn and then we start all over. He's uncomfortable with the silence here. His blink rate, which is how often we blink, it's a signal of stress goes way up right there. And he is, I think, lost. So he's likely just retreating back to what worked with his followers, which is just repeating himself using broad concepts, pauses. And he's stressed to the point where he needs social confirmation from somebody else in the room, which is uncharacteristic for him here. And I built a pretty comprehensive list of a bunch of factors that made this man who he was and how he gained his following. And as we go, I'm going to drop a few of these in here. The first one is a neglected childhood. It was very unstable and very neglectful. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is one of the best examples of the organism doing what made it successful. So this guy is two layers.  So the easiest way to keep people off of you, there's actually in Merle Haggard's book, a guy called Fred who took excrement and rubbed it all over him to keep people off him. The other good example is be crazy. Nobody wants to deal with crazy. And he did a lot of violent things, even in prison. The first comes in, he's got his legs wide open. That's just habit for him, I think. As he's thinking, I see not just emotional, but emotional and kinesthetic. And I think the reason is because he's actually trying to come up with an answer and you've hit him somewhere that matters when he's concentrating. Then he turns and looks straight down the pipe, straight down the camera. I don't need to explain nothing to you. That's him talking to the American public, not to the guy he's there with because he's been in captivity for nine murders. He told the trigger on anyone, but he was just as guilty as those guys where he was guilty of conspiracy and was, I think he had nine murder one charges that stuck. The smile with him is condemning and disdain.  And that's, in my opinion, I would call that the bless your heart as a gesture. Southern women go bless your heart. Meaning, you know, something's wrong with you. You're simple ton that kind of thing. He's doing it as a gesture. And then he does that teaching face where he's looking to see if you get it. When he says I started all over because he's talking about every time he comes out of prison and comes back and we'll hear him talk about it more. Then you're going to find that he is the first each of those as a new start and a new person. The last part that he has is this guru and all he did and you can listen, pay real close attention to him. He's spouting pop culture and he used drugs and pop culture and tying into things. Remember, this is the hippie era when everybody was about about unplugging and not being part of the system. So he's using a lot of language from hippie pop culture in those days. And then one of the best things you can do if you've ever been around with people who smoke a lot of dope and I don't mean like just sitting around and having a little bit of a year there. They have crazy conversations that are disjointed and don't make a lot of sense to you if you're not one of them. But make perfect sense to them because their synapses are firing differently than yours. And he was feeding people all kinds of hallucinations and everything else. So if it sounds close to rational, it is. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. And we'll find out later on how his philosophies literally don't make any sense. There's philosophy that makes sense and is an absolute dog's dinner of all kinds of psychology, philosophy, ontology.  He's like he's no good at it. But in the right circumstances at the right time, in the right context, it could sound very convincing to the right people. And we'll find out as well the kind of how he how he will what he punctures in people in order to get their attention. Well, he's getting attention right now because he's literally taken the high ground. He's that kind of person that when when he comes into a group of people who are sitting on chairs, he would turn his chair around the other way and sit on it backwards. I don't know whether he actually did that. But I imagine he did because here he is on this what I would call a pew and he hasn't sat down on it. He seems to be sitting high on it in some way later on. He'll maneuver around that. He's mirroring the the interviewer there, but in a kind of an odd way, you know, almost not quite steepling there. But he's found something to do with his fingers, which is a little bit tough and eccentric to do. But the interviewer is there like that as well. I think the cadence that he has, the rhythm that he has is in order to mirror the considered self-reflective thoughtfulness of the interviewer. The interviewer has a certain, let's say, almost therapeutic, certainly philosophical style to him. I think he's trying to mirror that back as well.  All right, I was opening up with that class hands thing, Mark, because it looks so odd. It's so out of place. And I agree he's mirroring it somewhat in that with that guy. And overall, his body language is smooth and it's intentional. And I think this may be the mildest interview he ever did. And I think the reason being is he hasn't quite figured out how to use TV or interviews to his advantage yet. He's just now putting all that together. And I think this is the most real him that we see throughout his career in prison when he does interviews and things. I think this is the real guy, pretty much we're seeing. Looks like he might be on some kind of something to help keep him calm because the looks he has looks like he's on a depressant. I could be wrong, but he sure looks that way to me. And keep in mind, this is all a show as we go through this. Even though he hasn't got it all quite figured out yet, Chase was talking about how he's basically a cult leader. And that's what he's doing. He's keeping back and he's kind of reading what's happening, deciding what he's going to do, making decisions about what's going to happen next. And I think throughout this series of videos, we're going to hear him pulling from different philosophies. Not that he's read these philosophies. He's just heard about him. He's heard people talk about him. And I'll show you why in a little while we know that. He's heard parts of him and he says one line from one part of philosophy and one thing from Buddhism. They'll say one thing from Christianity, one thing from something else. And he's just pulling lines from that and just throwing them in there like David Bowie would do when he'd write songs quite often. What he would do is get a bunch of different lines and things and you'd have him all cut up on different pieces of paper and he would move them around and see if it would help spark something to make sense for him. And he would write entire songs with just these little clips of different words from the newspaper or from magazines and things like that to come up with something that sounded a little bit different. And that's in a way is what's happening here. He's taking just clips and little parts of different philosophies and he throws them out there and tries to back them up with this thing like he's got all this knowledge that he hides behind, which is really nothing there at all. It's very thin. There's nothing there. He just has the wording for some of these things. And from my point of view, I'll go into detail about how he uses that to his advantage as well in a few minutes. Okay, we're good? Yeah. One of those tape replays. When you and Mel write a book, what are you going to talk about? What are you going to try to bring out of your book? I never even thought of anything like that. I'd have to give that some thought. I was doing this on Mel's request and he wanted to write the book. I don't particularly care to explain nothing to you. I don't look up at you for any reason to bring my report card home anymore. Does that make sense? Well, no, what I'm trying to find out is what would you like to bring out in the book that can teach other people? What can you teach other people? That's what I'd like to know. What do you think you can teach other people? That's what I'd like to know too. I know how to be reborn and start all over and start all over. I don't start all over with the same old, same old. I just start all over. Even though I might be old, I'm still brand new every day because I do one day at a time, just like that old convict used to tell me. Isn't that what he used to say now? One day at a time. So I've learned to live my life in one day at a time. You really are. But in your philosophical talk, a lot of people won't, it'll go right over their heads. That's what I'm trying to say. Put it so they can understand it in lay language. Can we do that? Well, it's sad all over, really. It's hard for me to express how much sadness that I've went through to reach this point of understanding that I'm now talking to you from. How are you going to help somebody that don't want help? Get them in the head and make them do it. Will your book do that? Will you try? Will I try to explain that? Will I try to help you people destroy me some more? Is that what you're saying? No. That's what I'm doing here. Will your book help children? Help parents? I don't know whether it would help anyone. I've never thought about that. You guys would have to show me what help is so I'd know what it is. You teach me, I'll learn. I'm just a little kid in mine. See, I've been in jail 30-some years. I never lived in your world outside. I'm like a little kid out there. Hi, Mark. What do you got? I think the interviewer is trying to bait him in here, hook him in here. Your philosophy will go over their heads. Put it in lay language. So he's trying to raise up, I'll say it, status, trying to raise up the subject status here in order to get him to talk what we will find out is just utter nonsense, as Scott was rightly saying there. Open crotch display there. Big, bold, taking up space. Barrier arm over the side there to rub on the chin. Again, it seems like an act of I'm really thinking about this. I'm not quite sure what's going on there other than what I think Scott was saying there, which is he's considering, how am I going to play this? Where am I going to go with this? Everything is an event right now for him to try and manoeuvre and manipulate. I'm not sure there's many ideas of the past and the future here. He's very much somebody in the manipulation of now. But playing the role of the innocence there. Innocence, not quite knowing, but laughs a couple of times. Just, I think, to give that feeling of superiority that he knows, and he'll say this later on, he knows. He knows more than anybody else. He's withholding deep knowledge here. I think there is a moment there of him pretending to wipe tears away before he says, well, it's sad all over really. Again, a huge, a huge act. Greg, what do you think? What do you got on this one? Yeah, a couple of things. One thing, what you're calling status, I call pride and ego up because of my background. Pride and ego up is when I stroke your ego and make you look better, feel better. But Manson's not buying it at all.  Oh yeah, I got you. Because he's trying to stroke his ego and make him come out and say stuff. But this guy's street smart. If Manson's smart about anything, it's about how to manipulate and get his way around people. People would say he's charismatic because he plagued them with drugs and did whatever it took. He also was friends with some of the Beach Boys and Neil Young, with a whole bunch of people. So in his life, he managed to wedge himself into places somehow. This, but we're all, we're all going to be products of our environment. And this interviewer is old guard kind of guy. He's been around a long time and he's trying what worked with other people, not with a criminal who also has hippie kind of mindset. So he's kind of an outsider to it. I think the beard grooming is likely his baseline because things that we do all the time just become part of who we are. But I call that a philosopher's perch mark when he's doing this. He's sitting there waiting for you to ask him the right question. And if he would have just said, tell me about this instead of trying to stroke his ego, I think he probably would have gotten more out of him. There's not a whole lot going here. The only thing I would say, Scott, I thought to start with maybe he was drugged as well, but his grooming and his movement is animated. His speech isn't, which makes me wonder, is he intentionally being kind of contained because he knows that he will be perceived better. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you. But his eyes look a little bit. His eyes don't look drugged up, but they're a little squinty for, for to make me think that he might be straight up, but he may be, you know, I don't know who knows. I agree with the mark, the crime is fake. That nobody sniffs in like that. That's too big a deep unconcerned sniff. I guess the best way to put it. And the thing is about that philosophers set up Greg, he's also set himself up above this guy on the bench, sitting on the, yeah, he's sitting up there looking down at him, talking to him like that, which of course you would expect from someone who's holding court, which he is in a way in that situation. The guy can't go anywhere because he's there to ask him questions. And that's the speaking slow, slowly part. I agree with you. That's part of that. He's still trying to decide what's happening here, trying to get a handle on what's happening, trying to get a feel for the way it's going. See a little bit of adapting with that, with the hands with the clasp clasp hands a little bit. And I think you're right, Greg. I think that beard stroking and goof around with his mouth and all that. I think that's part of his baseline, which we see throughout this except in one or two little spots where it's actually adapting, but I don't think it's here. Chase, what do you got? So you all covered a lot of the behaviors here, but specifically there's one spot in here that says, how are you going to help somebody that don't want help? This is another great, beautiful cult leader line. I've just a nonsense question that I think he genuinely believes is pretty profound and deep. And so there's this thing of circular logic and ridiculous cult leader speak. Just take something simple and easy to understand, then pretend it's deep and mysterious.  So we're seeing his increased blink right here again in response to being questioned. And what I think is a genuine struggle with his internal identity and how he's trying to manage his perception on camera. So the next thing is abuse. He had a whole lot of abuse growing up and really shapes our lives. I've studied neuroscience for about 12 years now and this especially in childhood changes your brain, changes the physical structure of your brain. And it's almost a permanent shift. One of those tape replays. You really are. But in your philosophical talk, a lot of people won't. It'll go right over their heads. That's what I'm trying to say. Put it so they can understand it in lay language. Can we do that? Well, it's sad all over really, you know. It's hard for me to express how much sadness that I've went through to reach this point of understanding that I'm now talking to you from. How are you going to help somebody that don't want help? Get them in the head and make them do it. Will your book do that? Will you try? Will I try to explain that? Will I try to help you people, destroy me some more? Is that what you're saying? No. That's what I'm doing here. Will your book help children? Help parents? I don't know whether it would help anyone. I've never thought about that. You guys would have to show me what help is so I'd know what it is. You teach me, I'll learn. I'm just a little kid in mine. See, I've been in jail 30-some years. I never lived in your world outside. I'm like a little kid out there. Will your life story help somebody else to understand how to proceed? If it was possible to present everything that came down in the last few years in the proper perspective, it would be advantageous to other people, I would imagine. If they had eyes in their head and they could see under the bed, they'd see that the heads of lead and eyes of wood, it doesn't really matter because rubber fingers is taking the hand off into the universe anyway. The level of comprehension that you hold in your mind is only taught to you by a school book that's in a sorority house. My father jumps off the Second World War in the rupture ducts that were in the little pins in the buttons, in section eight in the nut woods, and all the people that have gone crazy. Your father was crazy? My father was all men that I've ever met in prison. Mel was one of my father's creepy compasses and other. I learned something from everyone, the captains, the wardens. I never missed anybody. I learned as much as I could from everybody I could get a hold of, and I never met anybody that I couldn't learn something from. But now that I have learned what I've learned, I don't think you people want to know what I know. You wouldn't like it. Why? Well, because it's not very nice. Well, why? Because the people that you let run your lives aren't very nice.  All right, Greg, what do you got?  This guy has no clue what he's talking about, but if he makes his language dense enough, if he makes his language dense enough, then other people can't understand it. So he tries to complex, complexify his language so it's harder to understand. And that's what cult leaders do best. Chase and I both were part of cults when we were very young, meaning we went through basic training or boot camp. And there was a cult leader in there who made a very complex thing for you to understand. And the only way you're allowed to get food and sleep and all those things is when that cult leader saw that you were starting to buy into the game. We were indoctrinated by instructors, trill instructors.  We came in off the street looking like Charles Manson, maybe, but came out of there looking like we do now. So what happens is they're putting pressure on you to conform. That pressure is not by them, it's usually by somebody else and all that Maslow to get to the top. So the more complex they make this language, the harder it is for you to get to. Think about, I'll just give you one example of how hard that can be. Imagine being a medieval person walking into a place where they spoke Latin and they owned this magic building. Imagine how powerful that was to change the way you behaved. So now this is what these guys are doing on a smaller scale. He's got a whole bunch of BS language in there around heads of lead and then I love seeing him stumble. When he gets to eyes of wood and that one single shoulder shrug like I have no clue what I'm saying is just beautiful. And then he raises that hand to testify and I got me my nose preach it brother because he starts to shift like some kind of a Southern Baptist cadence to his speech. It's beautiful. And he rolls off all this chaff and redirect his father's in 101st Airborne when he talks about ruptured ducks. That's the emblem for 101st Airborne is a screaming eagle. And in popular culture it was called ruptured ducks. Look, and when he's even doing that, I love that he reaches up and touches his collar because he's talking about something tangible, but he's just dragging in anything he can, anything he can. At the end of that, he does that other that bless your heart and a smile again. And then his eyelids flutter for punctuation. This is in a big pile. Chase, what do you got? So let me just teach you how to be a cult leader really quick. You heard him make these little rhyming words using vague language and then almost make no sense at all with this comment about this rubber fingers. And I think so cult leaders often use this rhyming ambiguous language as a tool to exert control over followers. And this can be explained by a few key principles here. First, there's something in psychology called the rhyme as reason effect in this mental error that we make as humans. We tend to make this error because it suggests that statements that rhyme are perceived as more truthful. So rhyming makes a statement easier to remember and process, which tells our brain, oh, that must be some good data there. If you need an example of this, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. Second, ambiguous or nonsensical language can create mental confusion or cognitive dissonance. And this increases the cognitive load on the listener, like how much we're thinking about trying to make sense of it. And this creates a little opening for the leader to insert ideas and thoughts without a lot of scrutiny. So it's a form of maybe a confusion technique where the leader obliterates the familiar, replaces it with weird, and makes you more susceptible. Finally, unusual language can serve to separate the cult from the outside world and kind of creates a unique little vocabulary that only members think that they understand. Like, Greg, I think you mentioned it, just all the LSD and crazy stuff. And now the people in the group want to avoid breaking the norms. The next factor in creating Manson is juvenile delinquency. I won't explain that. I'll just leave it on the table there. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think this is just rambling, but I think it's worked for him before, obviously, because he's got some people that were believing it with him. And he's trying to sound like he's an intellectual, like that first opening sentence talking about things being advantageous. I mean, he doesn't even know what that means. I really don't think so. I really don't think so because his use of the word came, you know, instead of saying everything's out of whack and is vernacular. His grammar is just horrific. And like Chase was saying, he separates himself from everybody else by talking about all this out there, these little parts of philosophies that he's talking about and pulls from. And then you get your own wording for those things, and it becomes common in that group.    I don't think there's any, no two ways about it.   And it's about this fellow named Michigan. He was a prince, right? And he was really nice and he was really good to everybody.  They didn't think he was very smart because he was so nice and all these intellectuals thought they were above him, but they come to find out that's not true.   Mark, where do you got?  So Chase, to your point, first lesson, first rule of great political speech writing is end your line with a rhyme. And it just has that, that nature to it. If at least you could end on a rhyme, you know, the audience know when to applaud or stand up. And it's a great signal that something significant has happened. And I think you're right. He's playing into that. Greg, you're absolutely right. I was thinking, why does he sound like a Southern preacher? In my mind. I don't know enough about Southern preachers. He does. But I know enough to go, I think he's doing a Southern preaching act. I think we'll find out maybe in the next video where that Southern preacher may well have come from because this may be something of a new act for him or a nuance, a new nuance to his act. But on the whole, you know, he's classically kind of charismatic. But I think what's happening here, and he does it here, is he turns around the inquisition that's going on around him into an inquisition into government systems and their effect on people.  I think he does have actual paranoia. But the benefit of that paranoia is that if he can move his paranoia adjacent to people's insecurities, so if he's truly paranoid about government systems, which I think he is, if he can go, well, you know, they're hiding stuff from us, aren't they? If you have somebody who feels stuff is being hidden from them just in anywhere in their life, it's adjacent enough, especially when it's with his passion of clinical paranoia, that they'll go, this guy's talking the truth. He knows how it really is. They're hiding stuff from us. Well, yes, stuff is being hidden from everybody all the time in all kinds of ways. You can't see everything. I mean, just most stuff in the universe is hidden from you. But if you've got a paranoid around you who are hammered at that idea and you are vulnerable enough, he will find that insecurity. And I think that's what he's doing here, just touching adjacent subjects to people's insecurity. My guess is, is that's how he found his disciples by being... Well, either way, there were runaways in 1969 in Hadesbury. Right. Right. They automatically don't trust the government. Absolutely.  And there's gonna be a connection with somebody charismatic there. One of those tape replays. Will your life story help somebody else to understand how to proceed? If it was possible to present everything that's came down in the last few years in the proper perspective, it would be advantageous to other people, I would imagine. But if they had eyes in their head and they could see under the bed, they'd see the heads of lead and eyes of wood that doesn't really matter because rubber fingers is taking the hand off into the universe anyway. The level of comprehension that you hold in your mind is only taught to you by a school book that's in a sorority house. My father jumps off the Second World War in the rupture ducts that were in the little pins in the buttons in section eight in the nut woods and all the people that have gone crazy. Your father was crazy? My father was all men that I've ever met in prison. Mel was one of my father's creepy compasses and other. I learned something from everyone. The captains, the wardens. I never missed anybody. I learned as much as I could from everybody I could get a hold of. And I've never met anybody that I couldn't learn something from. But now that I have learned what I've learned, I don't think you people want to know what I know. You wouldn't like it. Why? Well, because it's not very nice. Well, why? Because the people that you let run your lives aren't very nice.  You've been back on a job out of segregation for how long now? I don't know. I got up and came out here today. How long have you been working in the channel? I explained to you. I live one day at a time. I don't have any other life outside one day at a time. What brought you back into the mainline population? What brought me back into the mainland the preacher with his love and respect and help. He got me back on the mainline.  Still, right now, I'm doing the same day I've always done. I've just had to bring it a long ways. But it's still today and it's still a good day. And every day gets a little better. No matter what you do to me. Are you at peace with yourself? Whatever that means, I never even thought about asking myself if I was. I was generally talking myself. But I guess talking to yourself would be all right. Chase, what do you got? This is great because it helps you to see the cracks in false confidence, fake confidence. There's nodding during the silence after he speaks. The blink rate increases, which is a stress response when he's asked about anything vulnerable. They're smiling when he's nervous. There's an increase in facial touching during these precise moments when he's asked to internally reflect on anything.  Whoever this guy is, get an A from me. Final thing is incarceration or the next thing here and a lack of positive role models in his life. This is a huge contributor to later in life criminal behavior and activity. Greg, what do you got? He had lots of fathers we'll find out later. He had a good influence on him. So yeah, he's been in prison since he was in the system since he was 10. So that's a bad thing.  We see emotional eye accessing. And when he's asked about solitary and segregation, I don't have that option to be fragile when we know this phrase that you're going to show you. There's anger in his face as he says, no matter what you do to me. And if you don't know, it's awful hard under all that facial hair to see the anger.  And then he's got that weird little laugh. This is the organism doing what made the organism successful. And this is his Fred act to hide something. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So there's the preacher there. He talks about that he's been working with a preacher. My guess is he's picked up some of that preachiness from that. That's charismatic laughter at the absurdity of the situation. I would say these behaviors where you get him being serious and then laughing that the laughter feels odd to us. We know we're in the, in the presence of something that is odd and doesn't quite work. That is behavior that we will call allotropic, which means it pulls you in both directions. It's like a car accident.  And so everybody slows down on the highway. They know they shouldn't look at it, but at the same time they're drawn towards it. That's his charismatic nature. He puts in these little bits of behavior that are out of context that are super weird. You know, you shouldn't join in, but you're kind of drawn towards him. Scott, what do you got on this one? I think that mouth fidgeting again, that's sort of his baseline.  So that's all I got on that one. One of those tape replays. You've been back on a job out of segregation for how long now? I don't know. I got up and came out here today. How long have you been working in the chat? I explained to you. I live one day at a time. Right. I don't have any other life outside one day at a time. What brought you back into the mainline population? What brought me back into the mainland? The preacher with his love and respect and help. He got me back on the mainline.  Still right now, I'm doing the same day I've always done. I've just had to bring it a long ways, but it's still today and it's still a good day. And every day it gets a little better, no matter what you do to me. Are you at peace with yourself? Whatever that means, I never even thought about asking myself if I was. I don't generally talk to myself. But I guess talking to yourself would be alright. Let's talk about Helter Skelter. Bulliose paints you as a small would-be pop singer as he describes it of little talent. How do you react to that? Bulliose looks in the mirror every morning when he shaves. And that's the only person in Bulliose's world. Just him. Ask his wife. She knows it. What about the accuracy of the book though, Charlie? He had the dates right and the names right, but he had a million illusions that had nothing to do with my reality. He was only trying and convicting his own reality. He didn't have anything to do with me. I've already been through all these prisons. But he did paint you as probably one of the most universally known persons around to readers. People who read it. And they believed it? I don't know. What do you think? They're not as good as what they read, are they? But the book, how accurate or inaccurate is it? I never read it. Didn't you brief it one time? I read parts of it. How did you find it? Like I say, it was reflections of what he was thinking. It had nothing to do with me. Seriously, the Charlie Manson that you created, that's not me. That's only an illusion in your mind. It hasn't got anything to do with me. What's the real Charlie Manson? I haven't really been able to make him up. See, I've just been reborned again. See, and I'm learning now. I'm starting all over and I'm learning. The preacher's teaching me. The teacher's teaching me. The counselor's counseling me and the doctor's looking out after me. The guards don't bother me that much and I don't bother them that much. They do their jobs and raise their kids and I do my job and do what I do for my kids. All right, Mark, what do you got? Well, just one thing, and it's not that difficult to catch because he says, I never read it and then instantly concedes, well, I read part of it. So it's not difficult to get the truth or more accurate with him quite quickly.  No.  Chase, what do you got on this one? It's a great clip. In this one, we're seeing known deception. So we know it's deception, obviously. And it's immediately associated with a few signs that we commonly see in deception. There's facial touching, hesitancy, eyebrow flash, approval seeking, a muted head shake, and the behavior toward the end is a great example of list-making behavior, which cult leaders do all the time. They'll just make these random lists of stuff that sound like they're getting smarter. It kind of causes, I think it does two things to us. It's a confusion overload to make you more suggestible, and it induces a kind of a trance because we're going along this list. And there's some perceived, maybe some falsely perceived depth and complexity to it. And maybe a little dominance going on there. Scott, what do you got? All right. As the questions get again closer to who he really might be, he starts zeroing in on the questions. I think we're starting to see just a hint of nervousness there. That's why he's getting a little animated, a little bit louder, so I agree with you on that. And you guys covered, there's not tons of stuff up in here, but you got most of it. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, no light. My light just fails. Let's see what's going on there. Yeah, so there's a couple of things. Number one, he purses his lips in disapproval at Helter Skelter. A long-term, long-running hatred. And you see his respiration increase. Then he goes into the best Southern Baptist thing I've heard. There's a mantra there where he says, he's going in this whole thing about him being the only person in his world. And then he pauses after he does that little, you can hear its cadence is practiced and rehearsed. Ask his wife. Long, drawn out thing. So he's drawing in. So Shane Charles Manson was crazy in a criminal because he would have been a good kind of entertaining in front of people guy. His face drops. He looks at the interviewer like he's disappointed because the interviewer did not fall for that hook. That's a provocative statement and it didn't work and the guy just moves on. He goes into some other soliloquy. The face touching when he says he's never read it, we can all, you know, I won't go into any of that. The best follow-up question ever is what's the real Charles Manson that forces him into introspection? He goes down left, down right. And he goes more of this crazy philosophy of madness that he's got. Look, all I think it is, is a box of things he's read. You said it. This is David Boyle's lyric style.  He has no idea what most of them mean when he's doing all this stuff and he gets up and dances around and does all this. It's because that's what's worked for him because he's been hanging around with kids on drugs that he was feeding drugs and probably controlling every element of their life with some powerful guy and he was introducing them to things that they never had and also introducing them to ways of not having to work and survive. He would steal credit cards and do all kinds of things. So I'm sure he seemed like some kind of a godling to them.  One of those tape replays. Let's talk about Helter Skelter. Booyosi, paint shoe as a small would-be pop singer as he describes it, of little talent. How do you react to that? Booyosi looks in the mirror every morning when he shaves. And that's the only person in Booyosi's world. Just him. Ask his wife. She knows it. What about the accuracy of the book, though, Charlie? He had the dates right and the names right, but he had a million illusions that had nothing to do with my reality. He was only trying and convicting his own reality. He didn't have anything to do with me. I've already been through all these prisons. But he did paint you as probably one of the most universally known persons to who? Around, to readers. People who read it. And they believed it? I don't know. What do you think? They're not as good as what they read, are they? But the book, how accurate or inaccurate is it? I never read it. Didn't you brief it one time? I read parts of it. How did you find it? Like I say, it was reflections of what he was thinking. It had nothing to do with me. Seriously, the Charlie Manson that you created, that's not me. That's only an illusion in your mind so it hasn't got anything to do with me. What's the real Charlie Manson? I haven't really been able to make him up. See, I've just been reborn again. See, and I'm learning now. I'm starting all over and I'm learning. The preacher's teaching me. The teacher's teaching me. The counselor's counseling me and the doctor's looking out after me. My parents don't bother me that much and I don't bother them that much. They do their jobs and raise their kids and I do my job and do what I do for my kids. You know, there was a time a while back when you got out into the main line, you ran into trouble. I remember Bobby Davis up at Folsom. I ran into trouble? Well, you got into trouble. Who told you that? You see what I'm saying? Did it happen? Did you fight? No, I didn't fight. Were you fought? Were you somebody to come after you? Well, I fought, sure. I've been fought on many times. Did somebody come after you? Someone come after me? No, someone could come after me if they wanted to. But did they? No, they've always left me here. Nobody wanted me. You haven't had any trouble on the outside? On the outside, where? In prison. In prison, no. In the population, I get along with most of the convicts. The convicts that get along with themselves, there's much harmony in prison more every day. There's much wisdom in the prison more every day. Getting back to the book, what is this magnetism that people keep referring to? And it's been beyond that.  What's the magnetism? Why don't you answer that question? I'm asking that question. Well, can't you see? Well, tell me, what is it? Well, what do you think it is? Do you know? Do you know? Don't play games with me. It's no game. I know. That's why you're asking me questions and I'm not asking you questions. Okay. You see, I don't need to ask you questions. I already know. Could you tell me? Sure, I can tell you. Do you have the time? I'm here. Who would you like to start? Well, what is it? Go ahead and tell me. What is what? Are you secure? Charlie. The government is the United States. The government has never been more secure. Never been more secure than it is right now. Hold on. Seriously, I want to know. Chase, what do you got? I missed the contributing factor in the last video. He was exposed to and explored a lot of the ideas of Scientology earlier on. And to Scott and Greg, both of y'all, this is the first video I've ever seen in my life where a person goes from, I may be wrong, a romance or then to transfer, then to stancer and then to prancer. Maybe y'all can talk about this. This conversation features several hallmarks of Manson's speech patterns, which were convoluted, circular, nonlinear. And here's maybe what you saw right here. There's repetition and reversal, which is who told you that? Did it happen? Those kinds of questions. There's ambiguity and evasiveness and it makes stuff difficult to follow. There's an assertion of dominance here. There's a hypnotic repetition is what this is called in preacher speak. This would be called a voice role and indirect confirmation here. There's non sequiturs present here. And in general, this communication style was a crucial part of why he was able to develop followers so quickly inside of this community of wounded, confused people who were going through a very difficult time. Greg, what do you got? This is a really interesting one for me because if you pay attention, his entire everything he does is to try to get this guy to admit that he came here to find out something that Charles Manson knows that he doesn't. He doesn't work and he gets angry. You can see it.  We always associate the narrowing of the eyes. And if you don't think that he was trying to work him into that, that's what he's working him to. But go back and listen to him. See his teaching face as he's watching him. He almost cracks a smile when he talks about wisdom and prison. You can't miss it. He's got when he says the word you, when that guy says the word you, all that superficial charm and all that stuff that comes up is there. That's Charlie. That's probably where all of all these kids saw him. But the minute that he stops admiring him and then you see that superficial charm just disappear and drop off. I won't go into all the steps, but he forces. He's got to change language so he can pretend not to understand twice. That's powerful when you're trying to negotiate your way through things, but watch him get angry. Watch him have that superficial charm when he says you to and then watch him lose that superficial charm, fade and get angry. It's really powerful. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think we're starting to see the heat being turned up a little bit by the interviewer. This guy is, he's coming on a little bit aggressive and it's showing up on Charles. And now I think the goofing around with his beard. I think that's actually becoming an adapter now. It was part of his baseline earlier, but now I think he's doing it because he's getting a little, he's getting a little bit of attention from that. And I think this is the worst case, worst case we've ever seen of Chaffnery Direct or an attempt to, in other words, it's the words. It's almost hilarious. That's how bad it is. So far it's the most movement we've seen on him. And the interviewer is coming in swinging on this one. And Charles is kind of, I think he's in a slap fight. He's on the impression he's in a slap fight where the interviewer is on the impression he's boxing. I think it's the differences we're seeing there. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I think he reveals his, his modus operandi here for picking up disciples. Are you secure? He asks, are you secure? And it's interesting, Chase. I've written underneath there Scientology and then L Rod, L Ron and Miskovich there. Because listen, for those of you who know London, you'll know that Scientologists were on, on Tottenham Court Road, just near Gower Street. And, and all the actors would come out of, of, of Radha student actors. And they were easy pickings, easy pickings for the psycho, these Scientologists. And, and anybody going up Tottenham Court Road, because you can hit an actor with a bread roll at a, at, you know, 10 paces all the time. And there's, there's, there's no group that is often least insecure as actors after an audition, which is you're in the heart of the West End. You're just in the heart of the West End. And in the heart of West End, you've got actors auditioning all the time. And they're coming out of theatres utterly insecure with themselves. Good pickings, good pickings for any cult. I'm not saying Scientology is a cult. I'm not saying that L Ron started a cult and Miskovich runs one right now. I wouldn't say that kind of thing on YouTube. That would get me into all kinds of problems, wouldn't it? So I'm not saying that. But this is the fulcrum of his head game, essentially. You have questions. I have answers. You're insecure. I'm secure.  One of those tapery plays. You know, there was a time a while back where when you got out into the main line, you, you ran into trouble. I remember Bobby Davis up at, up at Fulcrum. I ran into trouble. Well, you got into trouble. Who told you that? Is she what I'm saying? Did it happen? Did you fight? Many things have happened. No, I didn't fight. Were you fought? Were you somebody to come after you? Were I fought? Sure, I've been fought on many times. Did somebody come after you? Someone come after me? No, someone could come after me if they wanted to. But did they? No, they've always left me here. Nobody wanted me. You haven't had any trouble on the outside? On the outside, where? In prison. In prison, no. In the population, I get along with most of the convicts. The convicts that get along with themselves, there's much harmony in prison more every day. There's much wisdom in the prison more every day. Getting back to the book, what is this magnetism that people keep referring to? And it's been beyond that.  Why don't you answer that question? I'm asking that question. Well, can't you see? Well, tell me, what is it? Well, what do you think it is? Do you know? Do you know? Don't play games with me. It's no game, I know. That's why you're asking me questions and I'm not asking you questions. Okay. You see, I don't need to ask you questions. I already know. Could you tell me? Sure, I can tell you. Do you have the time? I'm here. Who would you like to start? Well, what is it? Go ahead and tell me. What is what? Are you secure? Charlie. The government of the United States, the government has never been more secure. Never been more secure than it is right now. Hold on, bud. Seriously, I want to know. What is it that draws people to you? Music. Motion. Generating. Attention. Reality. When you know, you just simply know. Jesus on that cross. You know he's there. Is he there? Is the cross there? I know the cross is there. You don't have to put me on the cross to witness for the cross. I can see the cross. Now what I'm trying to do is get back to earth so I can go out in the desert. I've already cleaned that thought up once and you put another president in. And every time I clean it up, you put another president in. You said it's people who are in harmony with you. What do you mean by that? People that are in harmony with themselves in the will of a child. The child has a will.   He's just in the will of the child.   If the Christians had believed in the Bible, then we wouldn't have all this conflict. But evidently the only ones that are in conflict now are the Christians. You know, like they don't seem to believe in their own God for some reason. I don't know what it is. Maybe they need to see him on the cross again. Or maybe they should pray for him to come out of the sky in a silver platter. Or, you know, I don't know. I'm just here and you're there. And who is your reality? And where do you get your energy from? And where does your soul flow? And your thoughts? And how do you know you know? Unless you have to come and say, Charlie, how's the Dow Jones? You read the Wall Street Journal. Certainly I read the Wall Street Journal. I'm right at the top of your brain. And I'll read the Wall Street Journal until you let me walk out that door of free man. Or we'll just use Indian head pennies for ear rings. All right, Greg, what do you got? So we talked about Merle Haggard's guy in prison, Fred. Well, this is verbal excrement. He's rubbing all of himself, the craziness that keeps people from messing with him.  And that could just simply be, Mark, my note here, you always talk about is the uncanny valley. That's the uncanny valley. It almost looks human, but it isn't.  He's trying to be something that he isn't.  And just one other data point about him, he did this thing with all of his kids called creepy crawls where he would go in the houses of these people he knew who were wealthy and while they were sleeping, rearranged their furniture. One of those I think was somebody from Mamas and Papas who said that he just creeped them out. But she thought it was him training people for the later violence that he would do. This guy had a clear mind on what he was after.  Then he goes to chaff and redirect and he starts talking about Christianity and this Indian head earrings, all that stuff is just him with a Darth Vader costume on. The problem with that is we'll see him as he progresses in life. He's been incarcerated in, he's been isolated. He's been in solitary. And the problem with that is when you keep rolling that stuff over and over and over, the more times that you're this guy, the less times you're going to be the other guy and neural paths create. So all kinds of things happen when you put people in isolation.  Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look in the right context, that enigmatic one-man band that he was doing there would be incredible. But in the context here, it just looks like a bit of a nutter. And that's the problem is that, he's doing what made him great in one context. And in this context, it's just not working for him.  You've got the study of why we're here, the study of how we know what we know, but it's all mashed together in such a way that it absolutely makes no sense whatsoever. He's co-opted the icons of lots and lots of stuff and then just mashed it all together. It's kind of Brad Pitt in 12 Monkeys, kind of barnstorming performance going on here, but in utterly the wrong context. But what we do see there, I think which is really accurate, is the Messiah complex. The idea that he is here to save everybody, I would imagine he truly believes that. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Manson's got a really simple technique here. Here it is, every one of his techniques all rolled into one little formula. Create doubt, insert confusion, amplify confusion, borrow from authority, and use tactical wisdom or artificial wisdom, is what I would say. Which is almost what I would call the Manson formula for how he got to the point of fame that he actually did. And the Manson formula would just be create mystique, offer individualized attention, display assertive confidence, distort reality, promote the us versus them mentality, align with spiritual or ideological concepts, and there you go, you're done. That's all I got. Scott, what do you got? I'll go next. Yeah, I don't think he thought of it that way. I think he did all right up on those things by accident. I don't think, you know, to be in many books like that. But yeah, I think you're right. I think he ran up on this by accident because watching this video, that's how you do it right there. This is how it's done. Check this out. You go in when you're dealing with someone who's either their own drugs or they're really insecure. You catch them at a spot where they're really vulnerable. And the people that he's dealing with obviously are fairly vulnerable because of where he's finding them and how he's running into them, runaways, things like that. So what you do is when you put in these situations where they feel even more vulnerable as well, you separate them from their families, those types of things, and you start talking about all these things. You start pulling all these things from different philosophies. And some things are going to ring a bell with you. Some things are going to sound familiar. You talk about Jesus. You talk about the government. You talk about these other things. And out of all this stuff, all this shotgun blast of things going on, there's going to be one or two things that will resonate with you. And you'll go to that and try to figure out what he's talking about and say, how does that make sense in this? When you start thinking about that, it's too late. When you try to chase that down and go, oh, wait, what, that makes sense? Because once that happens, you're in. Because then you start connecting all this weird stuff he's talking about, it will make sense to connect together because of the way it's being presented and the way your brain is putting it together.  You'll start being able to piece these things together and it will make sense to you. That's how they do it. This is a great example of how he's doing that, getting up, moving around the chair and all that, starting all that.  But when he starts throwing those other things out and you start collecting them and trying to make them work, you can make anything connect when you think about it. You can make anything connect and you do. In this case or in this situation, that's how he's doing it. He's going ahead and helping you to connect this he's talking about and it all of a sudden, boom, it becomes, oh, I get it now. And once you say that, I do understand that's when it comes in and makes you feel good about what you're doing and what you're saying and where you are and all that. The only problem is that we are not clustered. When you're clustered, it works wonderfully. It's like the Flat Earthers on YouTube.  How long have you been a Flat Earther, Chase? How long have you been a Flat Earther? 18 months, but we haven't had a meeting yet. Well, that's the thing. You won't find it. You'll get the email soon because it's the 24 months where we indoctrinate you and you become, you know, I can't talk any more about it here, obviously, but I can't. I get the t-shirt. People go think we're Flat Earthers. Well, I think Greg is, not us. One of those tape replays. What is it that draws people to you? Music, motion, generating, attention, reality. I know. When you know, you just simply know. Jesus on that cross. You know he's there. Is he there? Is the cross there? I know the cross is there. You don't have to put me on the cross to witness for the cross. I can see the cross. Now what I'm trying to do is get back to earth so I can go out in the desert. I've already cleaned that thought up once and you put another president in. And every time I clean it up, you put another president in. You said it's people who are in harmony with you. What do you mean by that? People that are in harmony with themselves in the will of a child. The child has a will.   He's just in the will of the child.   If the Christians had believed in the Bible, then we wouldn't have all this conflict. But evidently the only ones that are in conflict now are the Christians. They don't seem to believe in their own God for some reason. I don't know what it is. Maybe they need to see him on the cross again. Or maybe they should pray for him to come out of the sky in a silver platter. Or I don't know. I'm just here. And you're there. And who is your reality? And where do you get your energy from? And where does your soul flow? And your thoughts? And how do you know you know? Unless you have to come and say, Charlie, how's the Dow Jones? You read the Wall Street Journal. Certainly I read the Wall Street Journal. I'm right at the top of your brain. And I'll read the Wall Street Journal until you let me walk out that door of free man. Or we'll just use Indian head pennies for earrings. What if you did get a parole date in November? What would you do? Then I would give it some serious thought. I don't have room in my mind for could-bees. I have to deal in what is. I can't think about what I want. I have to deal with what I'm allowed to have. What if you got a date? If I got a date, then I would probably have a date. Do you know what you'd want to do? Yes, I have many plans. A lot of plans. I'd like to clean up the water. I'd like to go up in the mountains and start at the top of the mountains and clean the springs up. Take all the pollution out of the water so I could drink it. Clean up all the old beer cans. Clean all the way to the ocean. And then maybe we might be able to save a little air and water for our children. Because I'm living in my child's world now. I'm working on his world. My world already went to the gas chamber. What if you don't get a date? If I don't get a date, then I won't have a date. Have you thought about it, then? I know you want to get a date. What if you don't? I've gave it some thought, but not that much. I've gave it thought in relation that it's possible that they'll be pushed to make some sort of move to alleviate the pressure that they've created on themselves. If there's any way that I could help that I would, then that way I could achieve what I'm after also. All I want is what the Constitution said I could have. The liberty and the right to look for my freedom the way I want. If you gave the Constitution to me like you said you were supposed to, then I wouldn't be here. And I wouldn't have been here the last 11 years.  And it really doesn't make sense to me. But I don't have the president's spot to make any change. If I had the control to make the change, I have... All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, a couple of things here. Clean up the water. He's going to clean up the water. That's a messiah complex. I can drink it. That's paranoia. So two things together. Messiah complex and paranoia. That's a lovely cocktail. But he doesn't attach feelings to the events.  That's just an event with a non-event happening. What we want to hear from somebody on the whole is if I can't get a date, I'll be disappointed or I'll be upset, but he doesn't have. It would seem any of those feelings or if he does, he's not going to talk about those. That's abnormal. That's antisocial. Yeah, let's leave it at that. Greg, what do you got on this one? I think it's something else, Mark. I think it's learned behavior. When you've been incarcerated for 37 or 47 years, you learn not to get excited about things because then they're not touchable. And I think in this case, he is actually giving us some real answers because he's adapting and moving to get comfortable. There are large illustrators. Got a lower lip withdrawal at what I'm allowed to have. He doesn't use that weird smile he's always using. He compresses his lips tightly. When they ask him what he would do if he does get out, just before he does that beauty pageant answer, he does some emotional eye accessing. How do I say this? He has to do his Messiah complex because that's just part of who he is. But I think here there's a whole lot. This is a hot topic for him when he goes into that. When he's talking about, my world died with the gas chamber. This is my child's world. I think there's actually some real emotion there when he thinks about it as a hot topic. I think later in life, what we're seeing here is probably more of him than we see any other time. I think he became the performing chimp by the time Geraldo came along and those guys and he was expected to be the spectacle and he does become a specter. Scott, you said earlier, this is probably one of the more normal interviews I've ever seen him do. Chase, what do you got? When he talks about wanting to clean up the water and pollution, I think he means it. I think if he got released, he would start trying, at least trying to do some of that stuff. And he's a really emotional response here about getting the parole date. And toward the end, when he's talking about politicians and courtrooms, way more confident. This is great because we can see there's a difference between his persona and the person inside that persona who's afraid to be seen. And I believe that understanding the individual motivations, fears, desires, all that kind of stuff, like probably everybody, but Greg and I mostly are always talking about how did this thing get born? How did this thing get created? While this book right here is not the gospel, even though it's so cool, it can make its own baby here that you can carry in a lab coat. The DSM, this is where we diagnose mental disorders, can provide some valuable insight. It should not be used as a definitive guide to understanding behavior. We're different creatures. Labels, diagnostic ones, can sometimes be useful, especially for prescribing medicine with your insurance company, can tend to lead to stigma that limits our understanding of the uniqueness of human beings and also creates some self-fulfilling prophecies when people start to do that. We see some delusions. We see some antisocial personality stuff. Humans are different. That's all I got. Scott? This whole thing is about him. He says, I, 31 times. He wants to clean up the water and all that for himself. Did you hear him say that? I want to do it for me. In other words, for me. Something is all about him. We're just seeing the narcissistic personality come take over here. I don't think there's much to this guy. I don't think there's much here. And I don't think you would have done that, Chase. I don't think you would. I think he's just talking. I think he just ran across his mind. What would you do if you got out there and helped people? He could have said, I put everybody in the dumpster. We would have seen it the same way. It's all about him. One of those tape replays. What if you did get a parole date in November? What would you do? Then I would give it some serious thought. I don't have room in my mind for could-bees. I have to deal with what is. I can't think about what I want. I have to deal with what I'm allowed to have. What if you got a date? If I got a date, then I would probably have a date. Do you know what you'd want to do? Yes, I have many plans. A lot of plans. I'd like to clean up the water. I'd like to go up in the mountains and start at the top of the mountains and clean the springs up. Take all the pollution out of the water so I could drink it. Clean up all the green things and pick up all the old beer cans and clean all the way to the ocean. And then maybe we might be able to save a little air and water for our children. I'm living in my child's world now. I'm working on his world. My world already went to the gas chamber. What if you don't get a date? If I don't get a date, then I won't have a date. Have you thought about it then? I know you want to get a date. What if you don't? I've gave it some thought, but not that much. I've gave it the thought in relation that it's possible that they'll be pushed to make some sort of move to alleviate the pressure that they've created on themselves. If there's any way that I could help that I would then that way I could achieve what I'm after also. All I want is what the Constitution said I could have. The liberty and the right to look for my freedom if you gave the Constitution to me like you said you were supposed to then I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have been here in the last 11 years. But if you let your politicians play like their Christians and use your courtroom to further their own purposes then all you're doing is big business with your own children's lives and it really doesn't make sense to me but I don't have the President's spot to make any change if I had the control to make the change I have so if I could get comfortable here I might be able to sit all the way down. You know we were talking about this the book Helter Skelter. You said that there are a lot of things wrong with it. What's wrong with it? Well the book's alright there's good paper in all of it all this paper comes from trees it's a shame to waste all your trees right in this trash for your children to be raised up in Do you want your children to live according to the Gospel of Helter Skelter? Where are the inaccuracies in it? Well it would take me as long as it took him to point him out it took him two years in court to invent him it would take me two years in court to uninvent him and read to him and show their proper perspective of it Helter Skelter simply means confusion and if you don't see the confusion in the world that's always been confusion in the world then I guess you don't know what confusion means but I get out of jail and every time I get out of jail society's moving a little faster and they're doing crazier things and I get out and I can never adjust to it outside because it's it's almost impossible to do anything right everything is wrong somebody hit me you have to hide and day people and night people and everybody all divided up Greg what do you got? Yeah there's more rational thought if this guy can be rational at times it's likely he is rational is a relative thing so let me just say that I don't mean that the way he thinks is the way I think or you think but look at him lean in and look under his brow at the pronunciation of Helter Skelter he's actually mocking there about like look I was going to rule the world with this little thing but then he tells us why he is who he is I mean if you want to hear a guy tell you why he is who he is here it is every time I get out things are different what I already know and apply it to the new world everything I know I learned from these men who are in prison he has to learn a new way to cope on those criminal underpinnings and use his background and he there Chase you may know this but there are at least two references to him being involved with an LSD program through Haydashbury that was tied back to the CIA and the MKUltra program so he has a good reason not to trust the government if that's the case and there's actually a study I can put it in the link down below written about him and his communal marriage that was published in lots of papers so the guy was important enough for people to know him he knew a lot of famous people Neil Young said he had talent other people said he didn't so if that guy has no way of understanding the world and he gets out and he can do anything that he wants to because nothing he does is right he just told you why he is who he is he told us the formula that created him and why he is who he is very clear Mark what do you got? Just one thing here which I really like Manson's there messing around with his glasses trying to put his attention they're distracting into that and the interviewer does a of the book towards it makes a big loud noise and it does get his attention so a great example there and he gets it later on as well just by going Charles and Charlie I think he uses Charlie and grabs his attention with that so the interviewer is learning along the way how to get this person's attention and how this person will try and distract off into his you know 12 monkeys world of barnstorming physicality Chase what do you got on this one? We hear this line here society is moving a little faster and they're doing crazier things boy did he nail that or what he nailed that line but it's the same stuff as most of the guilty people we've ever analyzed inability to call somebody a liar vague ambiguous language there's a lack of denial about the accusations attacking the other side there's stress around vulnerability artificial smiling approval seeking behavior and rapport building behavior and I just think he's delusional and Jeff Gwynn is an author who wrote this book which I think is just called Manson the life and times of Charlie Manson or something details this critical turning point in 1957 after he stole a car he was put in prison he took a special class called Carnegie's and read the book called how to win friends and influence people and one of the special things that he took from that class and he remembers other people him quoting this line all the time let the other fellow think or no let the other fellow feel that the idea is his that was a huge turning point for Manson Greg Scott okay I'm gonna keep this super short I don't think he read the book I think he looked at it some through it but I don't think he sat down and read the whole thing and watch him look through it I don't think this guy read this thing not that he couldn't he can probably read you know but I don't I don't think he read it that's all I got one of those tape replays so if I could get comfortable here I might be able to sit all the way down now you know we were talking about this the book Helter Skelter right you said that there are a lot of things wrong with what's wrong with well the book's alright they give paper and all that all this paper comes from trees it's a shame to waste all your trees writing this trash for your children to be raised up in do you want your children to live according to the gospel of Helter Skelter where are the inaccuracies in it well it would take me as long as it took him to point him out it took him two years in court to invent him it would take me two years in court to uninvent him and redo him and show their proper perspective of it Helter Skelter simply means confusion and if you don't see the confusion in the world it's always been confusion in the world then I guess you don't know what confusion means but I get out of jail and every time I get out of jail society's moving a little faster and they're doing crazier things and I get out and I can never adjust to it outside because it's it's most impossible to do anything right everything is wrong you have to hide day people and night people and everybody all divided up just one more thing what do you think we've seen so far to this point Mark how's it looking to you yeah so Messiah Complex very very clear I would say from the behaviors that we're seeing there and genuinely paranoid as well listen I hear there's other interviews out there so you know if you want us to look at some of those other interviews or more of that then put down below what's your most interesting interview and why we should look at that chase what do you got more of the guys an idiot and don't put that down below because we just may not need to do this again we've kind of got it maybe not I agree maybe maybe we're missing out some big thing that we haven't seen yet one thing that's incredible if you're ever talking to a psycho is to ask them to describe the motivations of other people that is in my opinion one of the most telling and immediately identifiable things because we as humans and even psychos tend to think that all people are essentially like us and that most people process the world like we do and this is a great window he thinks other people operate because it's the way that he operates and you're going to see this time and time again you don't even have to ask a psycho you can ask anybody what they how they think other people see the world or think Greg somewhere in America right now someone else is doing exactly what Charlie did some other little petty criminal mind who gets out who happens to stumble into a place where he can create this environment where he is more alpha than anyone else and through Maslow's hierarchy of needs and punishing behaviors he's creating his own little monsters now they may or may not have a reason to do revenge for the little monster but this little broken toy just pulled a bunch of kids around them who had very little tether to something going on in the time when there's massive social upheaval much like we're dealing with right now and he was able to find a home for them and even called in family got them all to use the same jargon all to feel like the same people smell like the same people eat the same stuff sleep with each other all of those pieces to create some feeling of belonging and obligation guys this is not the last time we're going to see this it's simply one time and the most famous because it was in a time when this was not happening much I think he's just a petty criminal who's just nuts I don't think he's crazy nothing he's just nuts Scott we get yeah to sum it up I think he's an idiot I don't think he's very smart at all going back to our song about earlier he's just grabbing parts of things he's heard he thinks sounds like something somebody smart would say he just throws them out there and sees what you can gather up and then like Chase was saying put them all together and your next thing you know and Greg saying your family you know so it's just I don't know I just think he I think he got lucky what do you what do you did all that I think got lucky it became a star baby and he was as a killer that's what it looks like to me so all right fellas think this is another good one and we'll see you next time


The F.W. Fitch Company presents Dick Powell as Private Investigator Richard Rogue in Rogue's Gallery. Wild for wild, let a song be your style, use Fitch, a shampoo.  The F.W. Fitch Company makers of Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo and Fitch's shaving creams presents Dick Powell as Private Investigator Richard Rogue in Rogue's Gallery. Rogue speaking, do you ever long for the bracing feel of the freezing wind on your face? Hard-packed snow under your skis? And the beauty of the stately pine laboring to support the dust-dry snow on its limb? Does your heart cry out for the tingle of the air as it squishes by your hurting frame on a toboggan course? It doesn't? Well, neither does mine. I can't imagine what throwback impulse to a pioneering ancestor may be decided to take that vacation at a winter lodge in the mountains, but, uh, nevertheless, I, uh, I did.  Did all of the things required of a guest? But I didn't like it. No, I didn't. Until I saw this lovely, lovely view. She was a slow-eyed Latin. She was voluptuous, and she was, uh, at the snack bar. I just happened to sit down on the stool next to her. Give me a cup of coffee, will you, Harry, and not too much sugar? Yes, sir. I'd like another coffee, please, Harry. Yes, ma'am. It helps to throw you out, doesn't it? Yes, it does. I saw you on the ski course this afternoon. Oh, is that why you're laughing? You came flying through the air very gracefully, landed right by me, and threw snow all over me. Well, I'm, uh, I'm sorry. I didn't do it on purpose, you know. I guess I'd better take some more lessons. Yes, I know it's impolite of me to laugh at you. Oh, that's, that's, that's okay. That's okay. If I'm going to be laughed at, I certainly want it to be you who does the laughing.  I'm going to take my first ski jump, and I know what's going to happen. I'll be there. One with sugar, one without. Oh, thanks, Harry. Oh, uh, Harry. Yes, sir? Would you mind introducing me to this lovely lady? Mr. Rogue, this lovely lady is Juanita Mansfield. Mr. Rogue, are you Richard Rogue, the investigator? That's right, the, uh, celebrated investigator. I'm very happy to know you. Thank you. Anybody ever tell you that, uh, your eyes are as beautiful as dark pool fire? But the God of love for men is called Jim.  Mmm, my husband. He tells me those things every day. Your husband? Mmm, you'll have to meet him. I'd love to. No, I'm mad about him. Oh, good. Harry, there's too much sugar in this coffee. Sorry, I'll give you another cup. There was too much sugar in my coffee and too much sweetness in the marital situation of the lovely Juanita. There I was, all puckered up for one of those highly romantic resort friendships I'm always reading about. And there wasn't a girl in the place that abandoned would dance with, except Juanita. When I got up to leave, I noticed that Juanita had left her compact there on the bar. I picked it up, decided to return it to her in the dining room. I spotted her the minute I walked in. She was lovely in a white evening dress, which signaled all of the curves and soft shoulders.  He was as British as St. George of the Dragon, neither of which would have impressed him. He looked vaguely familiar. I walked over to the table. Oh, hello, Mr. Rose. Hello, Mrs. Mansfield. I've been looking for you. You have? This is my husband, Mr. Rove. Good evening, Mr. Rove. How do you do, Mr. Mansfield? Well, Juanita, here's your compact. You left it on the bar this afternoon. Oh, thank you. I've been looking all over for it. Well, I come in very handy sometimes. Oh, by the way, haven't we met before, Mr. Mansfield? I'm sure we haven't. It's funny, I think we have. You know, I never forget a face. You from Los Angeles? Pasadena. I am anyway. David's from England. Well, I want to thank you for returning Juanita's compact, Mr. Rove. It was a present from me. I was so worried. And now we must finish our dinner, darling. We're paying bridge in half an hour. Oh, all right, David. Well, good night, and good night, Mr. Mansfield. You know, I wish I could remember where it was we met before. I'm sure you're mistaken, Mr. Rove. We've never met. My massive intellect was grinding exceeding fine as I returned to my table. My subconscious was flashing a message about David Mansfield. It had been a fear in his pretty blue eyes when he saw me approaching him. I'd known him before, someplace. And his name wasn't David Mansfield. The knowledge that the guy was a phony chased itself around in my mind without ever catching up with the answer. All through dinner and through a few fast rounds with the slot machines. I have a good memory for faces, and he had a good face to remember, but I couldn't make connections. After losing a bum decision, favoring the one-arm bandits, I went to my cabin, opened the door. Oh, I was trumped in clubs. Right on the back of my ear. I took an on-the-spot lesson in astronomy. Through the pink haze, I noticed that one of the stars in my orbit was beckoning to me. I looked closely. It was Juanita. I followed her timelessly. Until I was so tired, I couldn't keep up the speed. Then I fell a million lifetimes into peaceful oblivion. When I opened my eyes, I was on cloud eight, my home away from home. There was an economy-sized female bending over me. Gosh, Mr. Kew, you were going to stop here. Where's you, Gore? And who are you? I'm you, Gore's girlfriend. It's going to see about a marriage license. A marriage license? What's that midget up to? He can't get married without my consent. Oh, Mr. To love? What does that spook know about love? Oh, no, let me rest up here. Give you consent! Never. Hey, hey, stop pushing. You condensed minx. Cut it out! Cut it out! A-two, see your eyes open. Oh, well, hey. Hey, who are you anyway? Where am I? One question at a time.  That's as good a name as any. No, no, no, no. Try to sit up. You've been pretty close to death, you know? What's the matter with my shoulder? You have a nice clean wound through it. You look like a 32 or 38 revolver wound from a distance of maybe 25 feet. I can't tell you that. Just lie still. You have plenty of time to recover and ask questions. How long have I been here? Quite a spell. Let's see. Today is Wednesday... No, no, today is Thursday. I picked you up at the bottom of that canyon on Tuesday. You've been lying there unconscious, at least overnight. Bottom of a canyon? How'd I get there? You're asking me a lot of questions I can't answer, Mr. Rugg. From the looks of your head, my opinion is that somebody knocked you out through your over-inspiration point when your fall was broken by the underbrush, shot you. You don't know who it was? Oh, I've got a good idea. Yeah, I'm beginning to remember now. Tell me, where's the inspiration point from Red Feather Lodge? It's about 10 miles back into the mountains. Oh, I guess I was supposed to be killed, huh? That's just what you would have been if you hadn't managed to fall near one of my trap lines. You know, Doc, you don't talk much like a trapper. That's possible. However, I am a trapper. I like being a trapper.  No, I'll probably never find any gold and I'll probably never be a very good trapper. But I'm living the way I want to live and I'll bet that's more than you can say, Mr. Rugg. I like the way I live. You're a private investigator and I've been through your credentials. You live on violence and terror and fear and crime and it's a sudden death. You like that? Well, it's exciting.  There's only one way to live. That's my way. Alone. Oh, you saved my life then, didn't you, Doc? Yes, if I hadn't found you and brought you here and treated you you would have frozen to death out there if you hadn't died of your wounds. Yes, I saved your life, but you don't owe me anything for that. You'd probably be better off dead. Most people would. Well, that's a great philosophy. How did you arrive at that? I lived like you do once. As a matter of fact, I lived like you do for many years. I was a physician, which is a very fortunate thing for you. I couldn't stand the people, all of them striving to be smarter, more successful, more ruthless than their immediate friends. All of them scheming and plotting and lying and cheating to pile up money, which they never live to enjoy because they're burned out by the time they're 50. You know, you sound a little antisocial, Doc, but if you don't mind, I'm hungry. Oh, yes, of course. I'm sorry, Mr. Rogue, it's been so long since I've had anybody to talk with. I've been chattering like a magpie. Oh, no, no, no, it's been very interesting, but I'm broth. Yes, I have some broth for you, strengthening. Well, have you built up to fine shape by the time you're able to leave here, Mr. Rogue? Oh, but look, Doc, I've got to get out of here right away. Oh, no, no, no, I'm afraid not, Rogue. It's been snowing for five days. We're snowed in here. Snowed in? It'll be weeks before I can get you out of here, Mr. Rogue. We'll continue our story in just a moment. First, men, these warm spring days are probably finding you out on the golf course, in the ball diamond or the tennis court. Remember, these active sports often cause perspiration and unpleasant scalp odors to cling to the hair, odors that a hasty shower in the clubhouse won't remove. To do a quick yet thorough job, try Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo. It forms lots of lather instantly to cleanse away dust, dirt, perspiration, and unpleasant scalp odors from your hair. The lather rinses out quickly and easily, too, so your shampoo is done in a jiffy. And men, Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo is made from pure natural oils. You can use it as often as you like, and it won't leave your hair dry or unruly, but always well groomed, fresh and clean. Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo is available at drug and toilet goods counters, or you can have a professional application at your barbershop. Now back to Dick Powell, as private investigator Richard Rogue in Rogue's gallery. I couldn't figure out whether my benefactor, Doc, was as daffy as a red hearse or as wise as a barn full of owls, but he was a talker, and he was a good doctor. In two weeks, I was as full of health as a Boy Scout camp and as full of conversation as a book of plays. Doc shoveled his way out of his shack, mounted me on snowshoes, and helped me over the 20 miles that was as glistening quiet as the top of a wedding cake. When we came inside of the Red Feather Lodge, Doc said goodbye. I managed to swagger into the lobby of the hotel. I was freshly shaved, and Doc had cleaned the blood from my shirt and jacket and mended them. In fact, I looked quite presentable. The clerk uncovered his teeth in professional welcome as I walked up to the desk. Well, well, Mr. Rogue, glad to have you back. I should think you would be. Wasn't anybody worried about me? Yes, I left rather suddenly, didn't I? Well, yes, but we know people in your business get called away. Called away? Yes, I took the call myself. What's the matter, Mr. Rogue? Why are you looking at me that way? Surely you received your baggage at your office. Look, there seems to be something about it in my memory. Just what happened?  You told us you'd send a check to cover your bill and asked us to please send your luggage to your office in Los Angeles as soon as the check arrived. We did just that. Only it wasn't a check you sent. It was a money order.  Yeah, I remember it all now. Well, by the way, is David Mansfield still here? Oh, no, no. Mr. and Mrs. Mansfield checked out. Must have been about three weeks ago. Any forwarding address? Oh, yes, I'll get it for you in just a moment, Mr. Rogue. He gave me the forwarding address. It was in South Pasadena. I copied it in my little black book and took the hotel bus into town where I caught a train for Los Angeles. The wheels in my head clicked it out with the wheels on the train in a rhythm that soon lulled me to sleep in spite of my determination to stay awake and figure my next move. The porter awakened me when we pulled into Los Angeles and I gathered myself for a taxi trip to my apartment. I grabbed the newspaper on my way to the cab to check up on what the world had been doing without me. And the first headline to catch my eye was a story about the murder of a Dorothy Granday, a model I knew slightly. She'd been stabbed to death in her apartment. The phone was ringing when I got to my apartment. Rogue speaking. Hello, Richard. This is Eve Fulton. Oh, well. Oh, Eve, what goes? Dottie. Dottie Granday, you remember her? Yes, sure. She's been murdered. Well, I know that. I just saw it in the paper. She and I were living together at the Magnolia Arms. Police are here. Please come over. Well, look, Eve, I just got into town. Hey, Richard, I'll pay you. Oh, yeah, sure. No, all right. I'll be right over. I went over because I'd always liked Eve and because I don't approve of the beautiful girls being murdered and because I knew Detective Lieutenant Urban of Homicide would be there. I wanted to see Urban. I did. When I opened the door, he was waiting for me. Well, Rogue, this time we found the body. How have you been? I was out of town. Hello, Eve. Hello, Richard. You know the murdered girl? No, well, yes. It's frightening. Who would have wanted to kill her? How do I know? You'll just give me a few minutes. I might be able to tell you. How well did you know her? Why, Inspector, you don't think that I... Ask him to go away, Richard. I want to talk with you alone. If you have anything to say, young lady, you'd better say it to the police. I'm representing this girl, Urban. What does she need representation for? She wasn't under suspicion. You mean she is now? If she didn't do it, why would she want you to represent her? Maybe she wants the guilty man caught. You ever think of that? You'd better come down to headquarters and see me after a while, Rogie. Well, I intended to do that anyway. I got a little something I want to talk to you about. Good. I'll be seeing you then.  All right. I'm not going any place. In about an hour, Rogie. Yeah, it's your office, huh?  Oh, Richard, hold me. No, no, no, no, no, no, Eve. Who did it? I don't know, Richard. Honestly, I don't.  I needed you. What's Dorothy been up to lately that might get her killed? I don't know, but she's been up to something. You know how she was, closed mouth and kind of mercenary. Yeah, I remember. Go away with it, Eve. We got a murder on our hands. Look, tell me, where's Dorothy been mixed up in? Well, she's been spending a lot of money lately.  She's always wanted one. She got one about three weeks ago and all kinds of expensive things. Well, you think she's been putting a bite on somebody? I don't know what to think, Richard. She and I had an awful fight a couple of nights ago. The police found out about it from the neighbors, and I'm afraid they're going to think I killed her. I couldn't kill anybody. Okay, okay. If you didn't do it, I'm going to have to find out who did. Got any money? Yes, I can pay you, Richard. Give me $200 and I'll let you know when you owe me more. Oh, all right. I'll take the $200 now. In the meantime, I'd like to take a look around the joint. Well, I'll get it for you if you really want it. I do. Who has, uh... Who's Dorothy been romancing lately? Oh, she's been playing the field. There was one Argentine fellow that she was with a lot, and more than any of the others, I guess, but he hasn't been with her much lately. He decided he liked me better. Oh, is that what you and Dorothy fought about? Well, yes. Hmm. What was this Latin type's name? Eduardo Lopez. He's a millionaire. Oh, hey. Hey, come here. What's this? Oh, oh, those wedding pictures. Yeah, who's the big blonde groom? Well, that's Dottie's husband. They hadn't lived together for years. Oh, they were still married? Yeah, she was always talking about getting a divorce, but she never did. You met him, Richard. Remember a couple of years ago? Before you got mad at me. He was with Dottie one night when you came up after me. He played hearts. Remember? Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember, yeah. I got the $200. Yeah, yeah, here it is. You can't afford any more, Richard. You'll represent me for the $200, won't you? Oh, sure, sure, sure. I'm a very big-hearted guy. I won't be needing any more money from you, honey. On account of I'm just about to solve a murder. We'll return to our story in just a moment. First, a word to the ladies. You know how spring winds stir up dust and dirt and can cause perspiration to cling to the hair. This combination can imperil the daintiness and freshness of your hair. Regular use of Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo will always keep your hair sweet-smelling and clean. Fitch's saponified shampoo is made from mild coconut and pure vegetable oils. It makes mountains of fluffy, fragrant lather, lather that floats away the dust, oily film, and perspiration from your hair. Then when you rinse, a patented rinsing agent contained right in the shampoo comes to your aid. This rinsing agent works with the plain rinse water to ensure sparkling clean hair undimmed by a dull, soapy film. Your hair is left radiantly lustrous and delicately fragrant. Guard the charm and beauty of your hair by using Fitch's saponified coconut oil shampoo regularly. Fitch is spelled F-I-T-C-H. Now back to Dick Powell as private investigator Richard Rogue in Rogue's gallery. I left Eve Fulton's apartment dropped by homicide headquarters for a chat with Urban, but he wasn't there. So I left him a note and went out to the Mansfield address in South Pasadena. It was a beautiful home, set back in a kind of park. There was a circular driveway up to the front door, but I parked out on the street. I wanted time to work up plenty of hate before I hit that front door. Mrs. Mansfield answered the door herself. What? What? Mr. Rogue. Oh, surprise to see me, huh? I want to talk with you and your husband. You can't come in here.  Look out, here I come. Where is that pretty husband of yours? He isn't home. Please don't point that gun at me. Where is he? I don't know. He's out. I don't know when he'll come back. No kitten. Well, I'll just wait if you don't mind, or if you do. I want to have a talk with him. Just walk right in here, Mr. Rogue. Hmm? Come on. I won't botch the job this time. Drop your gun.  Huh? Oh, I suppose you know Juanita.  You're back of a red feather lodge. Yes, he told me just a few days ago.  He was afraid you'd come between us. You knew something. Yeah, I'm afraid I'm quite a disappointment to him. As a matter of fact, you're both. Really, Mr. Rogue, I'm quite surprised to see you. How on earth did you ever get back here? I'm certain that you were done in before I left you up there. Well, it's a long story, Mansfield. I wouldn't interest you. I want to talk to you about something else. Yes. Yes. You know, I, uh... I finally remembered where it was I met you, David. Indeed. Yes. You were married at the time to a girl named Dorothy Granday, but not working at it. I was dating a roommate, E. Fulton. We played hearts together, and you gave me the queen of spades three times, and I've hated you ever since. I know of that early, foolish marriage of David's, Mr. Rogue. Which one had he killed her? What makes you think I, though, all this did? She was blackmailing you, wasn't she? You were married to Juanita, wasn't legal. You'd never been divorced from Dorothy Granday. Dorothy found out about your fortune in marriage, and she was putting a bite on you for money blackmailing you.   Oh, you know, I can get an indictment against you in 20 minutes with your record and the facts in the case.  I'm going to arrange it.  I didn't. I killed her, David. Juanita, you don't know what you're saying. I know very well what I'm saying, darling. I followed her home to her apartment. I killed her. We promised each other nothing could ever come between us. I killed her for us. Now we're free. You're not quite free of me, though, Juanita. That's a matter of our convenience, however, Mr. Rogue. Yeah, I suppose that's right. You've got the gun. You tried to kill him once, David, to save our happiness now. Yes, dear. But first, I'm interested, Mr. Rogue, in just how you learned all you know about us. I wouldn't want you to die uninformed, David. I found a wedding picture of you and Dorothy in her desk at the scene of the murder. You were a blonde then. That was before you dyed your hair. You were without mustache, and you were a lot fatter, but I never forget a face, Mansfield. The minute I saw that picture, I knew why you'd been so frightened when I met you at the Red Feather Lodge. That's unfortunate. Let's go for a little ride in your car, shall we, Mr. Rogue? Uh-huh. Of course. Oh, well, you love each other very much, you, too, don't you? Very much, Mr. Rogue. I think it would be awfully nice if you could have a double execution.  Come on.  This dame's a murderer. She's gonna pay for it.  And if you take a shot at me, you're gonna pay with her. You're inside the law now. Don't listen to him, David. Don't come any closer, Rogue. You want to take that walk with her? To that little green door? Into that glassed-in room of the green chair and the gas that makes you choke and die? I haven't killed anybody. Give me the gun, Mansfield. I haven't killed anybody, Rogue. No, give it to me. I'll kill him. David! A shot at her. What need you? Yeah. Come here, pretty boy. Broke my hand. Well, that was the end of the case. David Mansfield tried to kill me in the mountains because he thought I might remember him and ruin his marriage with Juanita's bankroll. Instead of staying dead, I came back and killed two birds with one stone, in a matter of speaking. I caught a murderous. Juanita lived for her execution, and David won't be out of the pen in time to vote for the 40th president. And oh, by the way, I saw my hermit friend, Doc, a couple of weeks ago. He's living at the Beverly Hills Hotel. Yeah. In a suite of five rooms. Found gold up in them Thar Hills and gave up hermiting. He's getting married next week to a lovely widow with five children. Oh, there's nothing like living alone and liking it. You know what I mean? This is Dick Powell again, ladies and gentlemen. Hope you enjoyed our story tonight. Ray Buffham wrote it. Leth Stevens, composed and conducted the music and D. Engelbach produced and directed. Be with us again next week. Well, you, we have a story for you about a birthday party, a locked penthouse and a homicide. We call it the impossible murder. Thanks for listening. Now here's Jim Doyle. Be sure to tune in next week. Same time, same station. When you will again hear Dick Powell as private investigator Richard Rogue in Rogue's gallery. Laugh a while. Let a song be your style. Use Fitch Shampoo. After in between Fitch Shampoo, you can keep your hair shining and manageable by using a few drops of Fitch's ideal hair tonic every day. Fitch's ideal hair tonic is not sticky or greasy. Yet it gives your hair that well-groomed look.