Welcome back to The Breakfast in Plus TV Africa. Let's head straight to our second conversation where we have Enes Ereke, who is the coordinator of Yaga Africa. He's on standby. He joins us in no time. The Senate has rejected a bill by President Mohammad Buhari, seeking the amendment of Section 84, Subsection 12 of the Electoral Act. Section 84, Subsection 12 presents political or prevents political office holders from contesting for elections from the party primary level without resigning. The bill had killed the first reading on Tuesday despite court order barring Senate from asking on it. The request was rejected by Senator Yahya Abdullahi, who led the debate for the second reading of the bill on Wednesday. The senator kicked against it and voted no when it put to voice vote by the president of the Senate, Ahmed Lawan. We have our guest joining us, Enes Ereke, who is the coordinator of Yaga Africa. It's good to have you join us this morning, Enes. Thank you very much. Good morning. And just to clarify, the coordinator of Yaga Africa Center for Expected Engagement. Alright, thanks for that. So let's get your thoughts on this one. Did this come to you as a surprise, looking at the fact that over time, you know, the Ninth Assembly has been described as Robustam? Well, not exactly. It didn't come as a surprise. I wasn't surprised because if you pick the Electoral Act 2022, you would find that before now, there were moves by lawmakers to put some safeguards in the law. Safeguards that will ensure that we provide a level playing field for everybody who wants to contest or run for election in the country at any level. One of those safeguards initially was when the lawmakers provided in the bill then that nomination of candidates would only be through the direct primary method. And that was a safeguard that tries to boost it because over time, governors have been accused of, you know, hijacking delegates through delegates in the indirect primaries method. But eventually, that didn't work out. But there was another safeguard where you try to ensure that you prevent, as you read out in section 84, that political appointees do not contest primaries if they are still holding offices or they do not serve as delegates, you know, to vote in Congresses and Conventions of Political Parties. So that's it. It's a good step to ensure, one, that there is a level playing field for everybody. Then two, also, as part of ensuring a level playing field, to ensure that the executive, for instance, there are two issues in that subsection. One is that if you're a political appointee, you cannot be a voting delegate in a Congress or a convention. Now, you can also not stand as an aspirant in a Congress or a convention. So when you look at the two things, it tries to ensure that in a situation where the executive appoints a large number of aides, for instance, those aides will not be delegates in the primary, in the non-nation elections of political parties. Now, that ensures that the executive, that the process is not tilted in favor of the executive. Because over the years, we have seen a situation where governors, for instance, will appoint a regin of aides and these aides become delegates in primary elections. And of course, he who pays the Piper will ultimately dictate the tune. And so the appointees of the governor, for instance, will definitely vote in line with what the governor wants. So that has been stopped. Now, the second leg of it is that you can also not contest primary elections if you are still holding an appointed position. Now, that also is to ensure that the privileges attached to those offices that could tilt the convention or the Congress in your favor are taken away from you so that everybody who participates there has a sense of, it has a feeling that it has been a fair and free process. So in a way, it is to ensure that internally within the runnings of political parties that the field is made level for everybody within the party to have a sense, or this sense of justice being done, fairness, this sense of fairness in the nomination process. Alessio Reke, Yagafrika and yourself, as far as what you do with that organization is concerned, I'm sure you have been engaging with legislators and also with Nigerians on this legislative process of amending the Nigerian Constitution. Are you convinced that these moves by the members of the National Assembly are in the interest of the people and not in their own personal, a political interest? Well, you cannot take away the enlightened self-interest of these lawmakers. Of course, they are politicians, they have political interests, they have political ambition and therefore you cannot take away the fact of their enlightened self-interest. As we mentioned earlier, recall that they had insisted that nominations would be only through direct method and that was to ensure that we are a lawmaker or an individual, for instance, is a popular candidate that the situation where governors hijack the political parties, structures and machineries in the state, especially through the indirect method, that situation is prevented. And so while others may benefit from it, I also feel that there is this idea of this enlightened self-interest to ensure that lawmakers also as politicians themselves, equally protect themselves. But I also believe that there is a larger picture to this, aside from the enlightened self-interest of the lawmakers themselves. Yes, some may see it as a way of trying to protect themselves and their political interests and ambitions, but generally and ultimately the nation benefits from this because, like we said, there is this idea that it gives to everyone this sense of fairness. But then again on the flip side, you also find out that if you say an office holder cannot contest a primary election because there are certain advantages that it confers on him or on her. You also recall that the lawmakers can contest the election while still holding offices, either in the National Assembly or in the State House of Assembly. So in that regard, you may not wish away the enlightened self-interest of lawmakers as you rightly pointed out. You talked about the lawmakers and of course the fact that they can still contest. We look at the power of incumbency, which this is talking about. Would you agree that the greatest beneficiaries of this power of incumbency when it comes to elections are the elected officials, apart from their appointed officials. So you have those in the legislature and you have those in the executive, the governor's and the president. This doesn't affect them and these are the greatest and most contested positions, if you want to call it that, legislative positions, the State Houses of Assembly, the National Assembly and the executive positions, the governorships, the governors of the president. And so if these people are still also not subject to something like this, should we expect any drastic change in what we're trying to change? Like we said earlier, there is an enlightened self-interest in this.  For instance, like we mentioned, lawmakers will stay hold offices and run for positions as state governors, the presidents equally. And this is what confers that power of incumbency and the advantages that these positions will confer on them while running for offices. And so you haven't ultimately cured this problem of conferring on two advantages on political office holders, particularly elected political office holders, because they will still be offices, they will still be in their various offices while contested for another office. But I think ultimately what this provision tries to prevent and probably the idea of philosophy behind it is to prevent, like we mentioned earlier, this situation where the executive appoints a huge or very large number of aids and then they become delegates in Congresses and conventions. And then of course we know that when these aids or political office appointees become delegates in elections, of course we can determine the outcome of these conventions of Congresses even before they are conducted. So I think that is largely what lawmakers tried to cure there to prevent the nomination processes from, if you like, from being tilted in the advantage of the executive. But if it is about power of incumbency, the power of incumbency still remains and the undue advantage is it confers on political office holders, elected political office holders who will still be there with us for a very long time. We will see them making use of states that apparatus, their police, including resources of the states to run elections. So we will still have this challenge with us, even with the default sub-twelfth of the Electoral Acts 2022. So moving forward now, because we cannot take out the fact that the power of incumbency constantly plays in our election and in 2023, I mean we can really not take that out. You see in a state where you have a governor and a governor defects from particular political party and then you have all of the political appointees defecting and then you begin to ask yourself what is really going on here but that's the power of incumbency. So do we need to look at having new legislation or what do we need to do to begin to cop the excesses because at the end of the day it is entirely not a fair play for democracy? Yes I agree with you, it is not fair play for democracy that somebody is in office and continues to use the advantages of that office in running for office against others. Now that already confers some advantages, some privileges you know on that particular political office holder. But then I think it is not really about legislation this time around because there are certain things you cannot legislate. I mean we say that we do not want to over legislate for instance on some of these issues. Now what I believe we need to do is to begin to strengthen some of these institutions of this state. If we strengthen the institutions of this state so that they realize that for instance if the security forces and agencies realize that they exist for the benefits of Nigeria's and Nigeria and not to the particular regime or to the particular individual then we may begin to cure some of these challenges. For instance you recall that even as president of the United States of America Donald Trump kept complaining that state institutions were which haunting him and yet he was the president of the United States of America but he complained several, he cried out several that the apparatus of the state where various institutions of the state were which haunting him. Now that is a situation you cannot have in Nigeria because for instance during elections you will find out that the police for instance will begin to act as if it is the militant wing of the party in power. Now that shouldn't be the case. Now so what we need is really not about legislation any longer because I think the laws of the land are clear. What we need is to begin to find a way of strengthening these institutions and then winning them away from this attachment to regimes and individuals and so if we are sure that these institutions are independent if we're sure that they see themselves as institutions of the states and not as institutions of individuals or political parties then we can conduct elections without fearing that the security agencies for instance would act in a way that would confer advantages on any individual or any political party in power. Now that is the way I think we should go in order to ensure that we level the view for everybody who wants to contest elections in the country. Very quickly of course we're out of time. We have the electoral act as amended. We have the INE guidelines but we also have the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria is clear on the requirements for contesting public office at various levels. You look at section 65, section 106, section 131, section 177 and so on and so forth, section 182. Isn't there a possibility that any Nigerian can challenge this INEC, this electoral act amendment in court and say see you can't deny me of my rights to contest the election as a citizen of Nigeria who qualifies simply because I hold a political office because the constitution says I have a right and anything that goes against the constitution is null and void. So very quickly in a sentence or two because we're out of time. What do you say to this? Yes, I agree with you and I'm looking forward to the to the litigations that will come up as far as section 84, 12th of the electoral act 2022 is concerned because some persons just as you have said and it was on this basis that the president asked the National Assembly to amend that particular provision that it's at various with constitutional provision which requires a minimum of I think about 30 or 35 days for a political appointee to resign his his opposition before he or she can run for a particular office. So it will be interesting to find out what the judiciary will do with that particular section of the electoral act. We have to go. Thank you very much, Enes Ereke of Yagafika. We appreciate your time and that's so much you can take on the breakfast this morning on plus TV Africa. It's been quite an interesting one so far and of course we'll return tomorrow on this program same time. Enes Ereke, thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much for being part of it. Thank you. And what I said, if you miss that on any part of the conversation it's alright to follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and do subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's at plus TV Africa and plus TV Africa lifestyle. I am Merciable for it. See you tomorrow. I'm Kofi Matau. See you tomorrow. Good morning.