It is 7.15 p.m. September 28th, 2021. I'm calling you to be in order. We do have a quorum by the skin of our teeth. And, dishes and modifications to the agenda. I have one to make, and that is for agenda item 6.01, discussion on police mental health, we'll send for a photo. We'll only change it to say that, Sunday we'll speak at 6.30 time certain. That's not stated on here, because I hadn't verified that with him prior to wish. So, yeah, a motion to amend the agenda. That's a, perhaps I need to speak at 6.30 time certain. Motion to do what you just said. Signed by Commissioner Tomford. All in favor, raise your hand to say aye. That passes unanimously. And, with that, I motion to enter executive session to discuss disciplinary actions. Sorry, I'm just reading verbatim here. Some language from the sitting attorney. I move into it. Executive session to discuss disciplinary actions. Oh, sorry, one second. Welcome. The seat is right here, my man. And sorry, I'll restate that again. I move to enter executive session to discuss disciplinary action against public employees pursuant to one BSA 313A4 and invite our legal counsel and the acting chief of police and deputy into the session pursuant to one BSA 313B. Do I have a second? Second. Seconded by Commissioner Graham. All in favor, raise your hand to say aye. Aye. Aye. One abstention. That time is 5.17 on that. I guess I'll have to, actually we're done. All right then, we are in executive session. 6.32, back to recess. And we are moving with the time certain amendment and that is discussion on police mental health was signed verbato. So thank you for being with us and you have the floor, sir. Oh, thank you. I think the last time I had the opportunity to address the commission was a few years ago. Obviously before COVID-19 and the field of psychology we're still trying to figure out the effects of COVID-19. Being a mental health clinician at ground zero, that was the first time the field of psychology was trying to play catch up to an event that was happening close in theater our heart. And now is another time when so you can imagine that not only our own personal lives but the professional law enforcement have also struggling to adapt to some of these changes. I've given Susie the outline of the program. This is in our going into our 11th year. It's called the CARES program. It stands for career assistance, resources, education and support to the members of the Burlington Police Department both one personnel. I'm so sorry, Mila, I'm sorry. You have to keep the door open. You have to keep the door open. Yeah, we can't close the door. How about partially? Sorry, I have an open meeting law court. My apologies. That's okay. I can talk pretty loud. So, you know, 11 years ago when we started the program if you look at the profession today, not many things have changed. There's still a high suicide rate within the profession. Officers are still repeatedly going to high intense stressful calls. There's a mass shooting in this country every day. So, the profession is still dealing with the same ills that it was dealing with 11 years ago. What I think is really different as I speak today for the Burlington Police Department in particular is in the field of organizational psychology, the research is pretty abundant. When we look at the perceived level of organizational support, now when I use the word organization, I do not mean within the four walls of the Burlington Police Department. My hat's off to Chief Muirad and all that he's been trying to do to keep the morale up and keep the officers focused on the mission of that department. As a former member of the Burlington Police Department, it's a rich tradition of serving this community. I can tell you in 1981 when I drove down Main Street I had said to a friend of mine in the front seat, I said, I want to move here someday. It took me seven years to get to Burlington. I have been all over the world teaching what I'm going to speaking about today and Burlington is my home. It's sad to see such a rich tradition of the police department go through what it's going through today. So, from a mental health perspective, how do we provide services to an organization that is really, really struggling? The profession itself is still filled with a large stigma about asking for help. If you ask for help, it could be deemed as a sign of weakness.  But when we look at a more broader spectrum and we try to apply some of the theory to how to help the Burlington Police Department, I can't not look at organizational psychology which says that when officers have a poor perception of support, it does affect their ability to be engaged with the community. It affects their overall wellbeing. It also affects their ability to feel valued by their police department. It also impacts their ability to find satisfaction in their job. The research is also abundant when we look at job satisfaction as a protective factor towards stress and trauma. The profession has a PTSD rate three times that of the general public at 35%. We have three times as many police officers every year take their own lives than who died the hands of felons. I have been in that building up the street and I've taken the guns, this happens a lot. And Deputy Chief LeBreck was one of the officers who helped me help an officer who was gonna take his own life. That being said, I'm here to answer questions to see how I can be of some help. And one thing I think, and Susanna will connect with this, she was my social work teacher. I'll tell everybody. The profession, I'm sorry, not the profession, Burleigh Police Department, we serve about 12% of the officers in the world of employee assistance programs. Police officers are seeking only about 3% of mental health services. So we're doing the best job we can. Not everybody in that department will talk to me and that's in every department. I realize that as a person, as a human, that not everybody is gonna be able to connect with me. Why do I see the numbers dwindling and people not coming to ask for help? What we know in the field of child protection work is that social workers have joined the profession 100 years ago and the job demands was so much more than the job resources. I created a program in the Department of Children and Families, a peer support team to help support social workers. And when I would try to do interventions and support social workers, they would say to me that I could never even begin to unpack the stress or the trauma because I don't have the capacity to put it all back together and go to work the next day so I can earn a living for my family. The Burlington Police Department has moved into that realm. Officers are not seeking help because they don't have the capacity to unpack the stress and the trauma that they experience. There's another thing that we probably don't think about and that is there's a level of betrayal trauma that officers are feeling in terms of all of the officers that are at this department who may have strived every day to do a good job, feel like they are part of some kind of paradigm that where they don't feel valued and they don't feel worthy. And that only creates this dilemma where they're holding on for dear life. I get emotional because I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and that's why I do this work. This work is so important and I realize that many of us who are trying to hold on whether it's staffing issues or no staffing issues, we have to remember that we have completely depleted the spirit of the Burlington Police Department and these men and women are giving us everything they can to maintain serving the community. There's another thing in organizational psychology I think speaks to this and that's called work engagement. The ability for officers to be empathic, compassionate and respectful to their community. We are asking men and women who have depleted their own psychological well-being because of the strains and stresses that's taking place right now and then we're asking them to go to calls where a 14 year old may have calmed themselves or they go to a call where they see a grieving and crying family. And then we expect them to turn around and go to another call and provide the best care possible. That's the spirit of the men and women of that department. We are such a small organization that we can identify the bad apples quickly and we get rid of them quickly. And so it's all of these dimensions that play a role in the overall well-being and the function of that police department, thank you. I'll go over to the commissioner to ask questions for a lot of questions. So, can you please explain it? What was your duties for the police department? What was my what? What were your duties for the police department? So, sure, I provide and I handed out a brief that talks about services. I provide mental health counseling for the police officers as one aspect of what I do. I also provide guidance through their career in terms of people staying interested in staying at the department and achieving different avenues, whether it's detectives or a K9 or any other aspect of what the department offers people in terms of different positions. I also assist in critical incidents when there's a critical incident and officers are affected. We respond, I have a team, I also have a center, it's called the Vermont Center for Responded Wellness. So I have a team of trained clinicians, 14 trained EMDR clinicians that would respond to a critical incident and provide interventions soon after the traumatic event so we can help officers recover from trauma quickly and hopefully prevent PTSD from development. Cindy, what advice would you give all of us in the room at a time of really important racial reckoning? We have a predominantly white police department and that's enough to say. Wow, so. I go for the dregle, you know that. I may have told you this, right? Wow, I get graded, no. About three years ago, I was given an opportunity to go to Northern Ireland, very white, and work with the police service in Northern Ireland. And my colleague is a psychiatrist and his brother is the archbishop in Derry, Ireland where we know that there's a conflict going on every day and he asked me to go up and he asked me if I wanna do some peace building and I looked at him and I was a little bit astonished but I knew what he was getting at. As a trauma expert, we can't even have a discussion unless we both recognize the trauma that sits on at the other ends of the table because we view the conversation through this lens where I may have to feel like I have to protect myself or defend myself and that doesn't open us up for good communication. So I saw what my role was and my role was to tell these two men that were sitting at the table in this coffee shop with a cobblestone alleyway with the deacons sitting there and my other friends sitting here and I said to them, you know, we can't even have the conversation until we do the work around how for generations we have been traumatized and we need to bring that and put that on the table. That allows us to have a more constructive conversation about what do you need? What do I need? I mean, all of our relationships are based on need, right? Having my needs met. You know, when I was a cop at Burlington, you know, a need was having a cruiser that didn't have a hole in the floorboard or an FM radio or we got radios but the needs today, like we do a great job at providing tools. We don't do such a good job at the emotional and social support that officers need. Did I hear too much? Half of it, yeah. What the other half? The other half is the community. Right, somehow we really need to work to bring us all together. You know, I don't think there's one officer in that police department who is not open to sitting down and I just want to say this one word. Listening. That's where it starts. We got to learn to listen. Now, I'm really out of my league here. So anyway, that's my perspective. I believe that we are very lucky to have the quality of police officer that I send this department. I go all over and I talk to cops in so many different areas. By the way, you never want to go to South Jersey and talk to those cops. Boy, they are really in the dark ages. So, you know, we are really fortunate to have the people who are still here and that's the problem. We're going to lose really good people. Sunny, thanks for joining us. So do you have an opinion or help at all in terms of the work environment? Like do you work with the department or the BPOA on shift, length of shifts or days? I know there's a lot of overtime going on and I'm just wondering what kind of involvement or what are your opinions on all of them? So, you know, I mean, there's also research to that too. We realize that the 10 and 12 hour shifts are not helping but you know, where we sometimes and this is part of the challenge of the profession is that sometimes we don't have the staffing to do different kinds of shift schedules. If you ask me my professional opinion on mental wellness and overall wellbeing, I would say that a 10 hour shift is probably the maximum shift we would want offices to work and want them to have an extended time off so they could recharge their battery, think about work-life balance and then have the enthusiasm and the energy to come back because you know, this profession will do so many things to us. It is not uncommon for one officer to do a 22 hour shift because at the end of their shift, something happens and then we require them to stay and perform and I've been there and that's emotionally exhausting, it's cognitively exhausting and it's physically exhausting and the rebound from a shift like that takes three weeks.  So, you know, one feeds the other, right? So the job demand, right, has to meet the job resources and I think what the restructuring did is it created this really imbalance, more demand and less resources. And so when we think about, we want offices to be engaged with the community, we want offices to have a positive mindset, we want offices to be able to interact in crisis situations, whether it's, you know, a domestic violence situation or mental health call, we want offices to have that capacity that their emotional brain isn't overworking, that they're not going into fight or flight when they don't need to, right? But that's what the repeated exposure to trauma does to them, right? So the killer in this profession is not the one really high stressful call. It's the repeated exposure to death, dying and grieving families that these officers have to integrate into themselves.  These are the lives that these men and women live, you know, on a regular basis. And I don't have to tell you how much, or you gotta do is ask the chief for the call off. You know, how many deceased bodies do they go to? How many death notifications are they giving, right? That's the stuff that's impactful. And then if we don't give them the ability to recharge their battery, to get the sleep that they need, right? Go to the training that they need for career advancement. Think about a Maslow's hierarchy of needs. These men and women are holding on to their basic needs right now. And then the second need in that pyramid is safety. And you know, trauma, right? Think about trauma. You can't treat people for their trauma unless they feel safe. Are there trauma reducing routines that a department can take on, you know, on a daily basis? Yeah, I mean, you know, at the center, by the way, because the department and I have a contract, we offer all of the services we provide at the center that we have for free. So we have mindfulness coaches and it can be done in person or virtually. We have yoga classes, which can be done virtually and in person. We have a TSR manual, which is not only a self-care manual, but also, by the way, we have a peer support team in the department. The peer support team is almost non-functional right now because the peer support members are so exhausted. They can't even lend support to their peers anymore. But when we started the team three or four years ago, the team was doing, forget now, I would say probably anywhere between 40 and 50 assists every month. That no longer exists because there's no capacity. So yes, there are things. We can bring in other partners from the community to be in the community room and have officers take advantage of. We have nutritionists on staff that we can do healthy living stuff. So really, there are stuff. We hand out a newsletter to the department every month and the chief disseminates it. So officers know what we're doing. There are tips in the newsletter about cooking, sleeping, compassion, fatigue, burnout. So we're trying to do as much as we can, given that COVID has changed some of the way that we deliver the services. So I briefly was able to skim over. Care to Dr. McGarr, I was able to read an in-depth coach on pay attention. We had to say, it started in 2011. Is this a yearly recurring program? Yes. And how has kind of been an officer access to it? Has it kind of stayed steady? Has it gone up? Has it gone down? Yeah. So that's a great question. And I think we consistently somewhere stay between 10% and 15% of the department's utilization, which is much higher than what the state's EAP services provide to first responders. And so in that program, there are opportunities to do roll call training, psychoeducation, as well as responding to those critical incidents. And so those critical incidents give us an opportunity to provide interventions, right? Which is like psychological first aid and psychological second aid to help officers mitigate the effects of stress or traumatic stress. So I would say since, so we're going in our 11th year, we consistently stay around that 12 to 15% range. And I don't know, so why can't we get more? And why is it going down? I know why it's going down because I think officers have zero capacity right now. How do we make it go up? I don't know if we really can make it go up because what I would say is that in a normal time that most of the officers that we put through a really rigorous hiring process, our officers that we find have the tolerance to deal with the high stress calls and the repeated exposure. That's why we have 35% PTSD rate and not anything that's higher. So I think there are protective factors that exist within the department. Chief Murad is a perfect example of somebody who has come into a really tough situation and provided the support and the leadership to its officers and there is this sense of trust and open communication. And that is huge, especially right now where we're feeling like the ship may be sinking. We've got people bailing from the organization because from an officer's perspective, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. And it doesn't matter what I do as an organization to say, hey, we offer services, we want to help you. The person has to have the capacity to go after the services. The other thing to have the courage to acknowledge what's going on with them. So I wish I could increase that number. So when you were talking about Jordan Island, you were talking about trauma on both sides. Yes. So I'm coming back to the community that we live in now and at the moment in history, we're in right now with the racial reckoning. Where do we go with that? And I know you don't have these that you're talking as a professional with your best ideas at the moment, but I think that's a really integral spot that we are in right now. We have really outstanding people in the department and we have outstanding leadership. And we have community members who are struggling, particularly people of color in our community. So we have trauma and trauma on both sides. Where do we go and how do we get there? So in a perfect world where we can all have all the resources we wanted, I would suggest that we start some peace building and start building relationships. And if you go back, so the law enforcement profession has done this before, if you go back to neighborhood watch, and chiefs, you probably know more about this than I do, neighborhood watch was a program that engaged the community in self-governance and watching out for our neighbors. And one of the things that the policing profession did was to build those relationships in those communities. When I was with Burlington, I was part of the cops program. So community oriented policing. And we all took an area of the city and I was responsible for the Hill Sections, all the noise. And so I used the creative way to solve that problem. I don't think that, well, I do think, I do think that there is a great opportunity to reach out to the community in various ways, groups, or however you wanna do it, and offer an opportunity to come to the table for a restorative process. So and the reason why I say this is I run a 10 week program, and actually just gave me an idea. So I run a 10 week program, I do it in schools, I do it in police departments, and we call it support circles. People come for 10 weeks, two hours every week, and we engage people in the process, a collaborative process, I'm not the expert, I'm just a collaborator with people in this group and we have them think about, so in the world of education, have them think about what is the challenges for them in their career, how can we help them rekindle the spark of love and teaching again, how do they deal with it, and by the way, teachers are just like cops, they're public servants, and they feel the same pressures from the public. And so that's a concept, a concept where we can invite the community in as well as officers in and create this dialogue around restorative process, and get the conversation going, and from the conversations comes the ideas, and from the ideas comes the collaboration where, hey, my friend over there, you come with me, on Tuesday night we're going over here, right, and all of a sudden now you can build something I think could be really effective. Sorry to have my back. No, no, that's fine. I really like some of these ideas. I have, everybody knows I'm the one who comments a lot on lack of public engagement, and I think we're really seeing the harm that's been done in the relationship between the community and officers. And this whole us versus them narrative, that unfortunately is sometimes pushed upon us, which isn't okay, I mean in the support circle, you know, in peace building, I just feel if we've been, I got involved with the special committee to review policing policies, and then on the commission, and I've been talking about it all this time, and I just feel like certain things are moving forward, and now we're in this period of extreme stress with COVID and overall incidents going down, but certain types of incidents going up. And it's like if some of these things aren't really started to involve the community, I feel it's gonna get worse, you know, that there's a lack of appreciation on one side for work that's being done, and that's needed, and then there's complete distrust on the other side, and then there's those people in the middle who are trying to get help, but can't get help and don't always get talked to appropriately, and that can be a source of stress, but it still looks like you can't talk to people in a certain way, no matter how you're feeling, but yeah, I think this is all great. How do we get this out in the public? How do we really start these things? So yeah, maybe we can't get two hours, but what do we do to get a half an hour to start a process where there's this just communication, I just think the communication is so, it's just really difficult right now, and I was really feeling the way you were feeling because I had a walk out of here during our second session, I got so upset, and I'm feeling upset now because I'm like, this is all great, and why can't we make this happen, and why can't we really promote this in a way so that people know what's going on, right? Even with some of the incidents, I don't think people really understand what it means to go into a situation where someone's OD and they didn't make it. Like people don't think about that, and those are real things that occur, but that's not communicated in the way that it should be. That's right, that's right. And that's a big issue that the department needs to deal with, and they do need additional resources to do that, like I've said before, but she shouldn't be tweeting, she should not be tweeting. Someone should be in charge of public relations. 20 minutes to figure out where that works. Yeah, it's in charge of public relations and overseeing these programs, and having a plan, and being able to act on the plan, and hopefully we can get to that point, but that's what I wanted to mention, and thank you for being here, appreciate it. Well, thank you for having me, and I'm only one little voice, and I may have some crazy ideas, but I think being a student of Suzy, she's taught me enough to be moxie enough to tell us to say what I think, and I think if I always follow what I'm passionate about, and I may not always do it right, but the reality is that I always had this idea, and some of you folks may know Sam Jackson. Sam and I, I know Sam since he's 10 years old. What, the VHS, back in the day? Yeah, there's a really cute story about Sam and his brother, so I got called to the Burlington Mall, the one of the store owners was upset, Sam's brother was involved. The store owner didn't know the whole story, so I just said, hey, why don't I just take you home? It's like, put him in my car, and you can imagine a cop car showing up on somewhere on the old North end, and Sam, he's out on the street playing, and he runs to the size of this big, he runs and gets his mom, and his mom comes out, and I take his brother out, and I said, hi, are you Mrs. Jackson? And he said, yeah, and I said, got a good kid here, I don't know what happened at the mall, but he's not in trouble, and Sam remembered that, and I'm gonna tell you another true story. I left BPD and went to the state police, because nobody told me that I would get burned out, and what burnout is, so I went for greener pastures, and it wasn't three months with the state police, it was the same stuff, and this is the work, this is why I do the work. There was a big brawl in front of Nectis, and Burlington's calling for mutual aid, and I happened to be up on the highway, and so I come down the street, and I get out of my cruiser, and there's like 40 or 50 people, and five Burlington cops trying to control this crowd. The minute I got out of my cruiser, the crowd came off the sidewalk, and started to surround me, and then all of a sudden you heard this big voice, leave the trooper alone, leave the trooper alone, and all of a sudden the crowd backed up, and it was Sam, and him and I had this really connected relationship, and him and I have had this conversation, but I don't know how to do the resources, like I don't know, so Sammy and I have this love to do this work, and he's part of this community, and so that's an outlet, and he's got a bigger mouth than I do. Yeah, and there are certain other resources that are available too, but it's like I can't get anybody to focus, to focus, and every day it's getting worse, and at some point everyone, and essentially what you said about greener pastures, because there's no greener pastures, there is no place you're gonna go that this isn't an issue, the issues that we're facing, or won't be an issue. You go to a department, and maybe they're not actively, but you know, we take up all the other Vermont towns in their departments, and in the state police, and all the issues that they're having, and there's no, there isn't, it just isn't, it just may seem that it's common one location for now, but that doesn't mean anything. The diversification is coming. It's every organization of every type across every sector, and it's everybody in the community. So it's really difficult stuff for white people, and it's a lot more difficult for people of color to be at the receiving end of it, over and over and over, and we have to deal with it. I don't know how we have a conversation, you know, all of us in this room about this issue in an honest way, and figure out mixed strategies to go forward. My psychotherapist friends in the room, they find this really interesting. I have a colleague, his name is Mark Nickison, he's one of EMDR's trainers. He wrote a book called, The Cultural Competence Using EMDR-Based Therapy. My party, what's that EMDR? EMDR stands for a psychotherapy that I use. It's a trauma treatment. It stands for eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. I don't know if we wanted to get into that much. But Mark wrote a book, and it's called Cultural Competency Using EMDR Therapy. And when we're doing direct trauma work, we're helping people access the irrational, internal belief that developed from the traumatic event. Mark wrote a book about treating the external beliefs. The belief I have outside of me, people I come in contact with, right? And it's all about cultural competency. I went to, actually he did the training at the Burlington Community Health Center a few years ago, and he shows a video of him working with a man of color. And the man was talking about his experiences. And I think that's another avenue that's untapped. Mark is an exceptional trainer. I'm not saying that Mark would come up and teach therapists, but Mark could provide a program for all of us, right? To say, what is this cultural competence and what is this therapy? And I know we have trainings that try to address this, but the trainings are directive. Tell me what I need to know and then I'm gonna go away. When you look at it from the lens of having people look at their external beliefs, we're really asking them to come from within and notice that, right? And so EMDR therapy is a therapy that stimulates the two hemispheres, the emotional brain and the rational brain, and it increases the neural communication for us to process information. Wow, now I notice, wow, I have a belief about you, right? And I wasn't aware of that. And that's how you heal traumas. You, EMDR is based on the premise that we all have an adaptive information processing ability. Once we notice it, then we can heal. You know, and I know I'm going off in a little bit of a tangent, but I've had these conversations with Mark, say, Mark, you need to develop something so that we can take this into a classroom and not tell people what their biases may be, but help facilitate for people the ability to see the bias, right? And that's where the healing comes in because it's not me, you know, kind of nudging or putting something up on the screen and saying, well, you know, when we do this, it's us saying, thank you for giving me this opportunity to heal to become a better person.  You know, and so EMDR is an amazing psychotherapy, a modality that has changed my career, has changed the lives of so many people, actually changed the law in Vermont. So, and it can actually be something useful in this. If we could come together as a think tank and think about, so what are the things that we can do? Right? I'd love to have a class of 50 police officers and say, hey, listen, we're going to go through this. And what are you talking about? I'm talking about what are your external beliefs that you're not aware of? That might be a really good starting place. Okay, Chief, put on a calendar. So anyway, just some ideas I have. Thank you. Thank you, Sunny, for coming and for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you. Good to see you. Good to see you, too. Okay. I'm sorry, all the things I have, I just, is it fine? Yeah. Recognizing. I'm Stan Baker. I'm Archdeacon of the Fiscal Diast of Vermont. I'm at work at the Cathedral of St. Paul. When I'm not with this on, I'm a psychotherapist like him. I'm fully trained at EMDR. Mark Nickerson and I were in a men's group together, 15 years ago. I was at the training at the Health Center. And I'm working right now and combining EMDR with child psychotherapy with a guy from Austin, Texas named Marshall Laws. Anyone? That's not why I'm here. I'm here basically to support what I'm hearing from Signing, which is not why I came. You have a letter from me on behalf of the Social Justice Committee at the Cathedral, the Episcopal Cathedral. I'm here to support the idea of a mental health summit. Before I was in private practice, I was one of the clinical directors at Howard Center and was the clinical oversight for the Developmental Services Crisis Center before that mental health director down at Middlebury. So it had a lot of experience in the community of the mental health system. And I think the idea of bringing together many of the parties in this community that serve people with mental health issues is really important at this point because this issue goes beyond the police department. This issue goes to lack of mental health support for people in our community. And it was a problem before the pandemic. It is way worse now. You can just see it and hear it and feel it. My clients tell me that and they see it in our churchgoers. So we need to expand, we need to support the police department in learning new ways to deal with mental health issues and also their own burnout that you so beautifully talked about. But we also need to bring together all of the parts of our community that deal with mental health and together come up with some kind of solution which also speaks to the systemic piece that you were bringing. How do we talk to each other? How do we bring together the police, the mental health workers, the citizens on the street? How do we bring together all these groups? And I think a mental health summit is a good way to start which is why our social justice community, two of our folks are here as well, Bob Wright and Suki Rubin really support the idea of a mental health summit. And we can bring whatever resources we have in our diocese and the federal to that if space is needed or other kinds of support are needed. So I don't have a lot to say, except I guess I have an aura in each side here. I have a aura in the church side and an aura in the mental health side. And I see this sometimes when crisis is looming, when things are at their worst, it's also the opportunity to change. It's that time when we realize what we most need to see and what we most need to change. So I don't see this as a hope this time. I see this as a time for hope, given some of the resources you're talking about, Sonny and the willingness of the department and of this group of citizens to make change. Okay, thank you. Yes, sir. Really, thank you everybody for listening to my spiel. I apologize for getting emotional, but you know that this work is so passionate to me and I never apologize. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much for being here. Who is that agenda item 6.01? We are gonna jump back into the original agenda and we are at 3.01 now, which is approving the minutes of last meeting. Yeah, minutes from last meeting. I motion that we adopt the omits as I've heard. I have a second from Susie. Sorry, I think it's timing down by Susie. All in favor of approving the minutes from last meeting. Raise your hand and say aye. Aye. All right, well, I was gonna take a few abstains since we weren't here, so I have to do a roll call on that one. Milo? Aye. Aye. Aye. I just want to reiterate that Stephanie is not here because she's having internet issues because not a break is in the room at the time. I was just on to, I had 4.01, which is public forum at this point, so I invite anybody in the public to want to speak. You have the floor. You're already here, but we're not tied up or anything, you know? I just wanted to, you know, I can just... And do you mind just stating your name for the office for the record, sorry. Yes, I'm Robert Wright, Robert Wright, but I'd really like to second everything that has been said about the House primarily. We support what we see as your initiative to get some help for your final services all around for the general public and for the police, and for the police. I'll be quick about this, but I just wanted to say that I have seen a very serious situation with a neighbor. I actually call the police. I didn't see what they did. Things quieted down afterwards, but based on what I heard before that and the violence before they showed up, I'm thinking, what's it got to do to them, to the police, to see this day after day after day, time after time, you know? What kind of help do they get? They need help, I'll just leave it at that. Thank you. Anybody else from the public that wants to speak now is the time. Not seeing anybody else. Close that agenda item. Moving on to the 5.01, which is the Chief Support, that floor is to Chief Mayor. Thank you. I'm just gonna take this down to the audible. I had a presentation, but I don't have computer access and can't get up and Shannon can't get into the systems, these systems here from remote either, so unfortunately I won't be able to share it. I'm gonna reference a couple pieces of it though, and then share it with everyone afterwards, because it had some, I feel, important data about some of these topics that we're talking about. Just as a recap of the things that have happened since we last met, this past weekend, John Cain retired. John Cain was the manager of the parking enforcement division, and prior to that he was a police officer. He was a police officer for 56 years. So he retired in 1965. He served 23 years, excuse me, 26 years as a Burlington police officer rising to the rank of commander, which is what we now call a deputy chief. He then did 30 years as the director of the parking enforcement division, so which last year transitioned over to DPW, but was a part of the BPD for the vast bulk of that time. His tenure constitutes more than a third of the history of the Burlington Police Department, which is just extraordinary, extraordinary. And I think that one of the wonderful things that we were able to see in that is not just a testament to John and to his wife, Michie, who had to put up with that length of a career and has been wanting him to can it up for quite some time now, but it's a testament to the community that he served to, to be willing to give that much to this place. I think it's a testament to this place that we all serve. He had some amazing stories about what policing was for him. His first day was in the chief, he was one of three hires, first hires in several years after a very large scandal at the department during that period it had winnowed and gotten smaller. His police training was a day in the chief's office to learn the map of Burlington, a day in the chief's office to learn the municipal code, and a day in the chief's office to learn the VSA Vermont statutes. That was it. There was no academy, there was no anything else. They gave him a gun, gave him the keys to his parlor and now he went. And he could only enforce within Burlington. It is a very different place in those years since John King became a police officer. We're looking to do some facility improvements. We're trying to get some photographs of all the officers to put them up internally so that we can all see who we are and who's there and then make that public as well. We talked this week or over the past couple of weeks since we last met. We had a long discussion with Howard Center about protocols for emergency evaluations or EEs, taking people into custody and voluntarily when they're exhibiting a danger to themselves or others through a mental health episode. We had a discussion with the Burlington School District about what we're going to be doing in the absence of SROs since we don't have that position any longer. We have conditional offers out to all three SL positions that we were authorized by the city council. My, that was the pilot plan that called for three. My build out of that plan would be six. I would love the opportunity to bring those aboard but obviously we're going to see what we get with this pilot. But those three positions are now ostensibly filled. The training is beginning for one where we're still kind of working through. The hiring process takes a while but the positions are filled and I'm going to be discussing with HR taking down that posting soon. Great position, $60,000 start. Goes up to $72,000. I think we had a, we had plentiful applicants for that. So should we need to reopen it or should I be, should we be allowed to bring more aboard to the city? I'm confident that there is a pool of applicants for that position who want to work for the city, who want to be able to partake in this work. We have four CSOs in various stages of the employment process, people to whom we've given conditional offers and they're in the background checks, et cetera. That's a terrific position too. It starts at $47,000, goes out to $56,000. Very, very important something for us to be able to develop new capacities for unarmed response, for un-sformed officers. And we're hopeful that they will be able to help us address what we currently are unable to address which is a significant volume of what we call priority three calls for service. We simply can't go to those anymore and we're routinely unable to go to those. And that brings us to the biggest news that we had this over the past month which was last night's unanimous acceptance by the city council of the retention incentive, excuse me, the retention incentive and recruitment incentive. And that was a huge moment for us. I was tremendously grateful to the council for that. It's not exactly what the mayor and I asked. The mayor was very, very clear about his support for that and his belief that we need something like that in order to get us into a position of stabilizing so that we can grow from where we are. And yet the unanimity of it was the important part. It was a statement, I believe, that there is a sense of value from the community about what officers do and the role that officers have and some of the things that Sonny was speaking about. I think last night's decision says something about that. And so really happy about that because we are in a tough spot with regard to staffing and this would have been one of the pictures I would have shown you in the first slide which is that we are down to 68 actual officers. I have two who are on terminal leave which is 70 but they're gone. And they'll come back for one day each in order to just close out their vacation time. So we are at 68 and I'm below that because there are three officers, two who are on long-term military leave deployed and not available to us, not just weekend work and one who's on a long-term injury. Also not just an injury like, you know, sprained an ankle during a foot pursuit but a long-term medical injury from which she can only be on administrative duty. So those three are not available to us which really puts us at 65. And the 65 is important not for the incentive or the hiring because I'm not gonna hire those positions, they are positions. I hope they come back. I hope that the injured officer can heal but they are not things that we can use in our deployments. And so when we think about how we deploy and who we have available for different kinds of roles that's the 65 and that's where the 65 matters certainly to me and to the deputy chiefs who work on our deployment. We have a contractual obligation to keep a certain number of officers in detective bureau and frankly a workload obligation as well. It can't function below a certain level. We have requirements by the federal government by the TSA to keep certain numbers of officers at the airport based on the number of gates that there are there and so it can't take from that. And the only place that we lose from every time we lose an officer ultimately is USB which is the uniformed services bureau which is patrol which are the people who answer calls for service from the public. And so that is a real challenge for us. I would have had some pictures of that and some pictures of where we are. We are drastically down with regard to overall incident volume. It's still trending down. It's picked up a little bit over the past two months. I had some great charts that Jono prepared for me did run a wonderful work as always. I'm sorry Jono. But one of the things I wanted to point to talk about were a couple categories that are really up. I'm not gonna talk about all of them. They're a great visual again. I will share it and post it. But the mental health issue we are up over last year and last year was extraordinarily high compared to other years. And mental health issue is a specific category in our computer a dispatch system called VALP work. It's when a person calls in and the person identifies this. I believe this is a mental health issue or dispatch is able to discern from the report. That sounds like a mental health issue or maybe the officer gets to the scene and recategorizes it after the fact. But that means that the primary issue with the incident was a mental health issue. On top of that we have a check box for mental health so that any incident can end up being a mental health check box incident. Could be something that's completely unrelated. It could be just if you believe as an officer that there's a mental health component in this incident of noise complaint or this incident of public intoxication or this incident of a robbery for that matter. You can check that check box. And we have seen a real change in that. I have full year data from 2016 through 2020 again provided by Johnna that says that we in 2020 were we had the largest number of mental health related incidents. So that's the mental health issue call and the mental health check box combined and then disaggregated for overlap. Because sometimes over officers say, well, if it's a mental health issue, I guess I better check the check box too. And other officers say, no, I don't have to do that. It's already an issue so that we have to disaggregate that and we did. And one of the interesting things we see is that it's not a huge portion of our overall volume of events, right? So it is mental health related incidents as a percentage of all incidents, 5.4% in 2016, 6.0% in 2017, 5.7% in 2018, 5.6% in 2019, 9% in 2020. Now a function of that is the rise.  Another function of it is the fact that overall incidents are going down. So it becomes a larger proportion of it. And then within the actual incidents themselves, so that the percentages I just gave are the percentage that mental health incidents are of the total volume of incident. Now I'm gonna talk about the percentage of mental health incidents that involve a use of force. And for 2016, it is 3.2. For 2017, it is 2.0. For 2018, it is 1.8. For 2019, it is 2.0. And for 2020, where incidents became 9% of the total volume and really increased, it is 1.5. It is the least of those years that we've tracked. So force does not happen all that often in these incidents, but officers are nevertheless called to the scene. I think there are a couple of interesting things here as we plan for other kinds of, as we roll out the CSLs, the community support liaisons and their mental health work and what they're gonna help us with. As we talk about Burlington developing a crisis response system that is similar to what other cities have. As we talk about augmenting Howard Center's capacities as well. What is the true scope of this work? It's not a huge component of the call volume that police deal with. So it's not, even if getting all these systems fully up and fully funded and fully functional is not drastically going to reduce police call incidents.  What we hope is that by doing this and then pushing it forward several years down the road, we can have, we'll become an upstream solution to these so that the overall proportion of mental health incidents goes down because these things are getting addressed at earlier stages than when they have to become a police incident. And so while I don't see this being something that drastically reduces the strain on officers with regard to overall call volume, I do see this as something that has a tremendous possibility for creating a better situation for officers overall and our community overall. And that is in keeping with the last point that I'll make about where we are, which is drug complaints. I've heard from some members of this body, I've heard from many members of the public that we are experiencing more issues with drug complaints around our community. That's open air dealing, that is signs of traffic inside a specific location. Our drug unit currently has two detectives and over the past two years, the number of drug tips has increased significantly. So to the extent that tips to our drug hotline are proxies for activity. In 2015, there were 142. In 2016, there were 120. In 2017, there were 83. In 2018, there were 41. And that decrease over that time period coincides with the development of the Comstant Model under Chief Del Pozzo. It coincides with a real effort on the part of the Burlington Police Department and then tons of other community partners to really get at the opioid epidemic. And that decrease in tips is indicative of just less overt signs of that kind of activity that is causing community members to say, this is happening and it worries me and I wanna report it. In 2020, however, in 2019, it's starting to go up, 71. So as I said, 41 was the low point in 2018. 71 in 2019. In 2020, 172. And that is in keeping with a drastic increase in overdoses that we saw in 2020. We lost focus on the opioid epidemic because of the pandemic. And then 2021 year to date, that's year to date right now is 126. So it's not cooling down. We are trying to apply what resources we have to those kinds of cases. We're addressing some situations that's, again, that even members of the police commission have brought to us by proxy as members of the community. But that's indicative of some real issues in the community. We have a concern about, we have a concern about this mental health, about mental health and the uptake in that. And we have a concern about the uptake in reported narcotics activity as well. So again, I apologize for not being able to share this visually and the rest of the grass, et cetera, but it'll keep me shorter and I am broke. Thank you for that sheet. Just a general comment. You could also consider the substance abuse also as a mental health issue. Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are absolutely co-occurring. And substance use disorder is often a symptom of other kinds of mental health disorders. Thank you. I have to have it out there. Thank you. Give me some track. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Traffic. Thank you. Thank you. You have your involvement. Yes. Or in those that resolve the doubt. Yes. So I don't have the stat for fatal right now, but I do know that year, and these are, and now the numbers I'm about to give are all year to date, that is through 9, 20, 70, in each respective year. In 2017, there were 52 overdoses. In 2018, there were 42. In 2019, there were 34. It was real success on that front. In 2020, there were 71 at this point in the year. And thus far this year, there have been 98. August saw the largest number of overdoses that we responded to via Valcor that we've ever seen. That's a good barometer for the community as a whole. Thank you. Any for the questions that she has addressed through the floor commission? I can't see her here. Any? How about she take for that? Who's on to agenda item 7.01, Mental Health Summit Resolution. And before I hand it off to Susie. Oh, let me second. Are you corporal right now? I'm corporal right now. I'll feel free to join us on the table if you'd like. If you do that first. Thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And we're going to talk about your experience and the experience of your colleagues and the force in terms of mental health. Yes, it's a pretty broad topic. So I'm starting to figure out where to start with that. Yeah, as opposed to my experience, I've had a lot of frustration with kind of our role in the mental health and the community's response to mental health. I'm a police officer once at the academy for 16 weeks and somehow my profession is now being tasked with being like a first responder to a lot of mental health crisis. When you look at human HPs, people who are also legally allowed to write emergency evaluations from job descriptions. I'd love to have a master's level education, but for some reason it's been seemed appropriate that police officers respond and expect us to do the same job, the same standard. They are definitely a lot of frustration there. I suppose another frustration is having mental health. And not just mental health, but mental health and the criminal justice system start to interact with each other. You know, I was reading this resolution, whoever wrote it, they got a lot of points there. I'm sorry, they were very accurate on a lot of points. One of the points I'd like to expand on is that interaction between criminal justice and mental health. Really, when you see somebody who is mentally ill committing a crime and then they're not, they're deemed not competent to stand trial, that's all well and good, but then they're passed off to the Department of Mental Health with a non-hospitalization order and that non-hospitalization order states things to the effect of that person is responsible for their own schedule, responsible for their own medication, responsible for making appointments. Those two things don't really, it doesn't really make sense when you think about it. You're not responsible enough to be held accountable for the criminal acts, but at the same time, you're responsible enough to get yourself the help you need to be somebody who's not going to commit crimes in the community. Those two things, it doesn't make a lot of sense when you look at it from a bigger picture. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of frustrations from police officers point of view with mental health. I don't think police are ever going to be removed from response to mental health issues. There's a lot of public safety aspects around mental health. However, I do feel it's inappropriate for a police officer to be sent first. It's inappropriate for the police officer. It's even more inappropriate for the person in that mental health crisis. They're looking for help and you're sending somebody who's not trained to the standard that they should be to give that first line of help. So I suppose that'll be my insight and I'll show. Thank you. No problem. We open up for everyone to have a comment if they have one. No, I understand what you're saying. Thank you for evaluating the resolution. Give us your side of how you see things on a daily basis as far as being called to these situations. Thank you. I appreciate it. I have a question. I was just curious, are the officers as a whole aware of the coats model that is being brought to Burlington and do they support that? I'm not sure if the officers as a whole know about it. Just being from watching either that's me didn't mean before watching the people speaking that I'm somewhat aware of those. I love many additional resources, mental health resources that have me do my job better. So yeah, I'd definitely be supportive of it. If you don't mind, I'd love to send you an article on it because I think it would be a great resource for our community and they have proven to be, well, number one, once the initial investment is done, they ultimately end up saving a lot of money and take a lot of the stuff off the hands of officers or also provide teamwork where it's needed in areas where safety is an issue. So I'd love to send that because I think it'd be just really great to have officers fully aware that this is something that we're trying to get up and going in the city of Burlington and to be supportive of it because I think it would address a lot of concerns that you just spoke about. Thank you. Yeah, and I'd love to read it. There's just distance to the statistics that are provided that I'm eating. Yeah, there are some phenomenal statistics. So I'd love to see how it's achieved and figure out if we can do something here. I was gonna say, just all my years since I've spent a bar today across the street is seeing a lot of the calls that you know that you can't respond to for people like, you know, like hang out in the corners there. And we always come in and we're like, I'll thank you there. There's really not much you guys can do about some of these things.  And we always kind of find them frustrating. Just, it's like a complete lack of resources that you guys have for that. And very much in support of the mental health resolution that was drafted up, like how it pointed out a lot of the deficiencies there. And I really hope that something really good comes out of this in that ankle months. And just hope that you guys can meet. And thanks again for the work. Appreciate it. Thank you. So in advance, I'll come in. So now I'd like to introduce the resolution more formally for all of us to have any last comments on. I'm just gonna read the resolution out loud. Burlton Police Commission resolution urging citywide mental health summit. And I guess I would say this to me is like, it addresses both some of the holes in our services, but it's also a preventative measure. It helps our community to, you know, toward wellness as a whole, which should decrease all kinds of problems as a consequence. Incidents involving mental health comprises significant and growing challenge for the city of Burlington. These have severely impacted the Burlington Police Department, which has seen a doubling of mental health related calls since 2012. Moreover, this year alone, the BTD has already recorded 645 incidents as of June 30th, 2021 that are mental health related. It is the most frequent type of call the BTD receives. Although many and perhaps most of these incidents do not involve intentional criminal conduct, they can easily lead to criminal charges and an expectation that the mental health needs will be met through the legal system rather than the mental health care system. Offices are clear that they do not have the training to be the frontline health care responders. The problem is much larger and increasingly more serious than can be addressed by police response alone. Burlington is in immediate need of an effective system of care that is a collaborative network of providers that can efficiently and comprehensively respond to mental health needs. In light of the need for a comprehensive response to a growing social and health need, if not crisis, the Burlington Police Commission urges the mayor and the city council to convene a mental health summit with the goal of developing and funding a system of care. The summit should include all of the relevant parties to inform how such a system would be structured. The goal of such a summit is not merely to talk about the problem. A tangible outcome should be the establishment of coordination among relevant parties with regular meetings to review data and progress in developing protocols to meet mental health needs. The following are examples of the organizations and people to be included in this summit. Mental Health First Burlington National Alliance of Mental Illness, NAMI, Northeast Family Institute, United Way, Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health, Howard Center, Pathways, Vermont, First Call, BPD, Burlington's Fire Department, Burlington City Council, Public Safety Committee, Chittany County State's Attorney's Office, Chittany County Public Defender's Office, REID Office, represented this for the BIPOC and LGBTQ communities, represented this from the New American Community, AALV, Somali Mental Organization, and Bhutanese Community Organizations, et cetera, Vermont Family Network. I'm adding in Center for Responder Wellness, which is not in the draft. UVM Medical Center, Vermont Department of Mental Health, UVM Dean of College of Education and Social Services, because they really prepare both social workers and mental health clinicians. We urge this summit to be organized within the next three months and no later than December, 2021. In our role as commissioners, we see the impact of mental health on policing and the holes in our services. We emphasize the need for action is urgent. Comments from the commissioners? I think those last three or four organization additions, I think are excellent, and I feel, oh yeah, absolutely, we should amend the resolution to add those in there. Susie, can you speak to those? Are you done? Oh, yes, I'm done. Can you speak to the process of I know we all had the ability, but I think you also presented it to the chief, are there others who had a chance to look at it and vet it? I don't know that part of it. I did pieces of it, set-up pieces of it, so I'm not sure about that. Was this something that you? I did, I saw it and provided some feedback on some of the language in there. Yeah, the, again, one of the things that I just pointed out is that that's not the, that's the University of Mental Health issue calls, as opposed to things that they conceivably have a mental health component through a check box. But yeah, I did see it and I was very glad. I just wanted to make sure that our representations that are on behalf of officers in the department were, you know, that you and the officers have been seeing those. Great. This is on board docs, correct? Correct. Yes, so I just wanted to reiterate that for the public that they have access to view that on board docs. Excellent. Well, maybe probably a question for the city attorney here. With I guess the amendments of like just adding those, like three or four other organizations to- Just one. Well, just one? Yeah. Then nice, I propose that we adopt this resolution, amending that we add that one organization that was stated and not explicitly put on the documents on board docs. Well, let me make sure I understand just the point of clarification what the commission is intending to do. So for this resolution, is this intended to be just like a statement that the commission is adopting or is the intent that this is moving forward to city council? The intent is that it's a document resolution that's supported by the police commission that goes to the mayor. We're asking the mayor to take active on this. Okay. So if the intent is for this to go to the mayor that can be accomplished in a couple of different ways, right, we can take just like a vote that we support what's included in here and it can be just communicated to the mayor, like literally just communicated to him by the chair or emailed to him. If you're wanting this to be more formal communication, I would suggest that it move through the process of seeking a sponsor and be communicated to him in the format of city council with mayor presiding or just city council meeting. So I guess if the intent is just for him to be aware that this is something that the commission supports and just take an informal vote to adopt or to ratify what's in here, but to make it binding for commission. If the intent of the commission is that it moves forward in the city council process, like just a voting commission is not going to achieve that. The process would be to get a sponsor either by city council committee or an individual or group of city counselors to bring it to the next meeting or presentation to the mayor. So I just want to be clear. I'm sorry, I forgot to say we're also going to be sending this to the president of the city council. So it'll be both parties. So it could just be a communication to them, like you could just send it to them and say, we would like this to be a communication at the next meeting. But if the intent is for this to be a resolution that's ultimately passed and ratified by city council, is that the intent? Yeah, the intent is you want them to actually convene the group and make it happen. Sure, and I understand that. But it's so the intent then is for them to actually pass this resolution in a city council meeting? I think yes, yeah, because so it's like binding. So like they kind of have to act on it. So I would say yes. So the intent is for the city council to pass a resolution. I think the procedure here is that, we can take an informal vote that everybody agrees that the commission is supportive of this. But in order for a resolution to go before city council, it has to be sponsored. And so we would need to then seek a sponsor either through the form of a committee or one individual counselor. And so that would be sort of the next step in the process. So I would suggest that I'm just looking at your agenda here too. What I see on the agenda is discussion and information for this. So I don't know that a vote on this was formally warned. I'm not sure. I'm just looking at what's available on Word Docks. And so I would suggest that you can get your draft in working order tonight. Everyone generally agree on the particulars of the draft. Then if you want to have a formal vote, I would formally warn that for the next meeting. Once you do that, the next step again would be to go through the formal city council process would be to seek out that sponsor whether it's a committee or individual. I hope that. All right. I just wanted a clarification. It was seeing how this is under commission actions because I wasn't aware that we had to warn things that we were going to vote on. I thought that was kind of. Sorry, I'm just making sure I'm okay. Do you want me to? Unfortunately. Certainly take a vote to make certain changes to the draft resolution. And like I said, I think it's fine to take a vote to have the commission ratify or adopt what's in here. Then the next step would be, I think it's just part of an informal discussion or a more formalized vote would be, okay, what is our next step in terms of presenting this to whoever we are going to seek out of their sponsor. So that might be part of the discussion moving forward once we're all in agreement on this draft. If that makes sense. Susan did mention that it would be going to the American high school. So could I propose something? Could we as a group? I think we all agree on the content, but we'll find out. But I think this draft is all something that we support and we'll see. I don't want to speak for folks, but presuming that that's the case, could we not vote that we would like this to go to someone, you know, a sponsor, probably the public safety committee. And if they don't take it up, if someone won't agree to present it as a resolution, we would, as an alternative, want it to be a communication to the mayor and to the city council so that we cover both bases. Yeah, absolutely. Nothing's preventing the commission from just submitting it as a communication to the city council and, you know, presuming that the president will place it on the agenda. Nothing is preventing them from just accepting it as a communication without a sponsor. It ultimately we go that route. So it's, but obviously as the commission, I'm sure is aware, communication is a little bit different. They're just accepting it as information, not necessarily taking any action on it versus putting it forth as a resolution with a sponsor requires council action. So it'll be getting the information either way, but without that sponsor and putting it forth as a formal resolution, there would be no action taken by the council. So I guess what I would like to do is send it as a communication to the mayor and to Max Tracy and then we have a sponsor, I think, so in the city council. So I think if you're suggesting to do that. Okay. You want to move it out? Okay. Okay. So I'm going to make a motion. Do you first want us to do a motion on whether we approve the content that we all agree on the content? Yes, I think that would make the most of it. And the addition of one. There might have been. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to move that the draft that was included with the agenda be approved with the one edition of CARES. For the center for responsive, respond to those. So that's my motion. All in favor. Sorry. Just a quick point of procedure and ask for a discussion on this. Any discussion on that? Sorry, I shouldn't be the one calling for it. All good. Okay. All in favor. We're going to say aye. Aye. I'm glad to be unanimous. Okay. So I'm going to do a second motion and I'm going to move that we communicate this as adopted to the city council and to the mayor and that we also seek a sponsor. I'm thinking public safety committee. Pardon me? I'm thinking public safety committee. The public safety committee as the sponsor to take this, I won't leave it at that. Short and sweet. The motion. So the mayor, city council through Max Tracy and the sponsor. I'll second that. I guess the discussion. Yeah, the discussion. Not seeing her any. Go ahead. All in favor. We're going to say aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you, city city for doing the work. Well, Stephanie did a lot of good. Well, thank you both. A lot of people did. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. We've got a posted out agenda item 7.01 at the house of the resolution. Thank you, Corporal Byrne, for being with us. Appreciate it. Next time. All right. Next agenda item is a staff person for the BPC. So, so I forget exactly when, but several months ago, councilor Hightower was right. Hightower made an initial request, sorry, back in June for some funds for us to have a staff person. And I guess that was included into the FY22 budgeting process. We get to be allocated a person for that, but I don't know if and when that will actually happen, but I think it would be a good idea to kind of, I guess, get the job description or at least like our job requirements that'll be needed and to kind of get that in order. So that whenever that does come happen, we kind of, it's like these are the things that need to be done and kind of go from there. I saw your hand, please. I was just gonna say that we're trying, and maybe you said this and I wasn't listening. We are trying to get clarification on exactly what is the position, was it approved for a certain, was it approved for data, for example, analysis or gathering, and also what portion of a position is it? Because I think that will help guide us in terms of designating what this person could help the commission with. And we, it's taken, it's been several weeks since we requested it. Okay, no. Well, I guess some of the things that jumped out to me was like, you know, obviously taking our minutes, you know, essentially I guess it kind of replaced a lot of what Shannon does because, and with that being said, Shannon I think goes above and beyond, in her duties of helping us out. But at the end of the day, that's not really our position, it's gonna be doing these things for us, you know? She's your assistant, and like I said, this is not, by any means, attacking the work that she does for us, and I think we're all very grateful for everything that she does for us, and she spends her back with her a lot of things. But at the end of the day, that's not her job, and we should really, yeah, any good. Something that kind of stuck out to me was, obviously taking minutes, tracking complaints, organizing, posting the agenda to, you know, floor docs, NPAs, getting it out there, keeping track of our work plan, more or less, and maybe like some social media duties, you know, or what would I guess ties into, posting the agenda, kind of like, getting our message out there, much better. I don't know if anyone else has any, I see your hand around, any love? Also, a separate website, like creating our own page, within the cities. Maintaining our go, what? Right, like where we have our own page, where we can really put, I mean, people can go to board docs, but to really be presenting the information that we talk about in our minutes in a different way, and also to be providing references for everything we talk about, like Naples and stuff like that. Well, I was gonna say, we spent a lot, we spent a lot of time, setting up meetings, Shannon spends an important amount of time helping us schedule meetings, so that would be great if we had help with that. Any other thoughts or comments on this? Talk to Shannon and find out what our meetings have been. Mm-hmm. In all of the years. All right. We're just gonna let her discuss you on this. Short and sweet. I have to deny any further conversation or discussion on this. I'm happy to close this. All right. Moving on to agenda item 7.03. I guess this will be meeting places updates. I'm not sure, me, love, anyone got back to you. Some of the questions you had reached out to them, I feel that we have to table this at least for a month. Okay. So I got some more responses regarding some of the other places I was looking into. And everyone right now is being very cautious because of the surge in cases. So locations that normally allow public meetings are not doing so at this time. But they're all like, give us a call in a month or so, let's see where we're at. So I believe it's something that we do want to ultimately pursue. But once we get to a, I guess a better place for people to feel again, it's gonna be safe to have people come back to these meeting places. I would like to see us make sure that these meetings are hybrid meetings. I know we had an unusual situation tonight where we had to get down this room, but I don't think there wasn't the zoom link for this meeting. So I think we wanna make sure the city council is up and running with hybrid meetings. So the technology is now set up to do so. So we definitely need to be making sure that we're hybrid as well. Even moving around to a different location, I have been asking specifically about the technical availability to be able to do hybrid meetings. But certainly while we're in this building, we should be able to do that. Thank you. No, thank you. I think that's really important. It opens up our work throughout the city to anybody who might be interested. And people do go on Zoom when they look. So I think that's a great suggestion. I'll close that agenda item. Moving on to 7.04, commission email communication corridor calls. And I'll issue the forecast. So I think it's one of yours. So I think I say this perpetually, but I'm only three and a half months in and I'm still learning so much. So I shouldn't just general questions that maybe we just think about, maybe you don't decide tonight, but I wanted to table them. Do we have a policy or practices around commissioners speaking to the media? If we do, what is it and how does it work? So can we, do you want us to answer as we go along? That would be good. Okay, so I know of nothing like that. You don't have to know, okay. But that's just, I'm not aware of anything like that. And like, sorry, let me pull up. Me personally, I guess, as chair, I have no problem with anyone speaking to the media. I, if they reach out to you and you feel comfortable speaking to them, by all means speak to them. I, I guess all that they ask is that like whatever your comments are, it's like, I'm not speaking for the entire commission. This is my personal thoughts on it. Cause I'm, yeah, I'm, I know, I never not want you to think that you can't say something. You know, like, that's, that's not a hard one. Things like if you want to talk, if they've reached out to you, you want to talk by all means. Sorry, Mila? I think, and it's something that's come up before, but with everything that's been going on, it kind of gets sidetracked. Because I've been through what you're going through right now.  There's always a lot going on. And we kind of get thrown into the position. And I feel like we need a little like police commission handbook that that should be one of the things we relate to that question. And then some of the other questions that you have because we literally don't get anything. We're just like, there you go. You know, even the rules that we're supposed to follow for the meeting, you know, I remember asking Eileen Blackwood, do you have something written down? Oh, you just follow these rules. But you know, then we get called out if we do something wrong because no one, and then we have the city attorney representative here now, but we didn't have that. People are like, you did that on that meeting and you shouldn't have done that that way. But no one was here to counsel or provide documentation. So I think it's one of these things we need to add to our list. And even if we're working on it slowly, maybe some kind of progress addressing these issues. You know, and everything that you just said I agree with, but we should write it down.  That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to help us to have, you know, sort of more clear policies. And I just, I don't think we're deciding everything like this, everybody's not here, you know, but I do think we need to talk about this. So the second question is, how do we come to public positions that are joint commission decisions that need to be recorded to the media? How do we know that we've made such a decision? Is it recorded someplace accessible to the public? That's my second question. My third one is, do we have a policy to proceed to grant who speaks for the commission and when? I ask this because the individual commissioners respond to the press, who are they speaking for? Are they speaking for the commission or themselves? And how does the media report it? And then the last one is, after some deliberative discussion, I suggest we create a policy and record it somewhere so that new commissioners can continue several policy and practices in this area. And then the last part is, which is not on what I sent earlier, what are our email communication policies? And I'm just suggesting at this point, we might want to, each one of us, write something down in the spaces here for the next meeting and then come to some closure together, some decisions, make a policy and figure out maybe on that website that page someone was talking about. We start compiling some of this information so it's publicly available to both commissioners, new commissioners, old commissioners and our city. I'm happy to, I guess, draft something in response to these questions here. That might be, I guess, more or less a beginning of a sent to the handbook, per se. And then if people want to maybe put their input on those individual things, we'll come back next month or whenever we've discovered some new agenda to try to come up with something. But yeah, I'm happy to put up an initial draft and then kind of get feedback from, or hear feedback on these questions from other people and then incorporate that to something. So we have to go back to what you were talking about. I noticed like with counselors, city counselors, they speak to the media and usually, when they speak to the media, it's just how they feel and how they, they're looking at a certain situation. So with that being said, if we do want to have someone, I'm just going to make this a suggestion, if we do want to have someone speak for us as a whole, maybe we can apply that to the staff position as well. So she or he can put that out as a body. But just as you said. Yeah, on those relocations where we agreed on something. No, I mean really, it's very difficult to get seven people to work in it. It's very difficult because our inclination is to do something on something that's contemporaneous, right? But to get us together and seven people, it proves much more difficult. So in past experience, it has just been difficult to have a joint statement, as opposed to something we work on together in an open meeting. I just have a point of information for the commission. I'm happy to advise on this and I can connect offline with the chair and vice chair about this. This also may be something that would be appropriate to an executive session for a future meeting to receive some legal advice from your council on topic. It's not something I'd like to offer advice on. The open portion of the meeting for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to advise on maybe just some bar girls and primers to think about. Thank you. Awesome, thank you for that. Any further discussion, comments, questions for writing this? Just, I do think you know already that when a complaint comes in, those typically come to the chair and me and the minute it comes into my box, we just have it decided that I forward it to all of you and the only response that goes out to the individual is an acknowledgement of receipt of that complaint. So that is pretty much our only real policy where we really have something that is, we stick to it. Do you have it writing anywhere? I thought it was on your chart, to be honest. Maybe it's on the chart. I think it is, yeah. I did ask for permission to respond to a couple complaints, but I didn't go through. Yeah, and that's, I mean, nothing is saying, but I agree that we would never tell someone they can't communicate. It's just, it would always be on their own behalf and not for the commission, right? Unless they heard from every commissioner that we're in agreement. Well, that's the challenge with the meeting too though, right? Right. Yeah, so we have to really be on point. Yeah, sure. Yeah, back up to the chair. Yeah, I'll see you. Thanks. Yeah, sorry. Any further questions or comments? Close that agenda item. Moving on to item 7.05, an associated plan on racial disparities and use of force, requesting a revised plan. And yeah, we've been kind of bringing this up, you know, fair amount. And I think this is just for us, and please chime in, anyone else that wants to. Maybe looking for something a bit more concrete in terms of like how to address these things.  And, I don't know, maybe it's a little bit better, but it's just, to really take a deep dive in looking at this, and just see if there are ways that could help kind of bring these numbers down. Because it's, I think I know Christina Serrino said it before, but I like that it's pretty high compared to other people in the city. And yeah, maybe hopefully, maybe maybe next month might be a short app, but even in two months there may be a bit more kind of a solid plan and to kind of address like how we can kind of help these numbers out. So I think that we have some ideas for that. I think their idea is, you know, we're at a stage now where the body doesn't want them read anymore, but we were presenting them publicly. We still are in written form, they're up there. Every single one can be reviewed and looked at by any citizen or member of the public. And furthermore, this body has the ability to see all of them on body camera if they so choose. We are hopeful to get a, I do have a job description in the works for a position that was allotted to us in this fiscal budget for a redaction specialist that would allow us to not only have you able to see every single one, but to actually put every single one out in the public view. That's the strategy. I would like to know where these issues are in these things that are now wholly public and where we are going to make even more of it public insofar as allowing people to see each incident. And then where, you know, if there are patterns in there this body has not identified them. If there are, you know, indications of specific either situations or, you know, we're working on a way of presenting it with officers anonymized, like anonymized in a standard way that would allow there to be some flag of saying, you know, this officer is appearing and what do we, is there something there? So those are, those are efforts that we're making in the department. Deputy Chief Sullivan has just finished an extensive review of every single use of force from 2020. We review every single use of force when they happen and they get reviewed by members of the department who are trained at use of force instructors and use of force reviewers. They get reviewed by those officers who then go back to the officers involved to say if there's a problem or if there's something that needs to be clarified or if there's a real issue, they raise it to a supervisor or if they're not a supervisor themselves and begin a disciplinary process if appropriate. They also then gets reviewed now. There's an extra layer of review by D.C. Labreck that he every month he's producing this report for this body and then as I said, there's the annual report D.C. Sullivan has done and then we are hopeful to make available to the public what we've already made available to you which is the ability to watch every single one. That's, that is the strategy for identifying what is in front of us or not because it's going to be in those incidents and the granular incidents of saying where, what is the pattern of how officers respond that isn't part of behavior to which they are responding? Thanks for that, floor is open for any questions. Am I correct in that you were asking how to bring the numbers down? Or maybe, sorry, I guess I was not, I didn't probably say that right, not bring numbers down because that's implying that I'm trying to code the numbers, I don't want that. But I guess it was like try to find are there patterns of lives that are affecting mainly BIPOC people as their share of the community for these incidents, Mila? So, this has been discussed for months. There are patterns of racial disparities in the department. And I would like to hear further what you're doing to look at patterns by officers or shifts. I think that's really important because in the past when we've asked for certain information, even knowing that we have to review it in executive session, we've been told no. And then we were told that the disparities were due to warrants. And then the yearly report came out and said, well, based on the previous discussion about the disparities being due to warrants, we looked at that and we determined that it's not due to warrants. So there, and then trying to get information on training because I've really had to sit and listen to some stuff where I'm like, literally, do you hear the words coming out of your mouth? It shows a lack of understanding, a lack of cultural competency if we wanna use that term. But it tells me that people even at a leadership position have certain biases that they're not aware of and that officers are out in the street with some of these biases. And I don't know, one of the speaker we had was at the last meeting, they talked about how the training, bias training had to change because current bias training just is not proving to be effective. And then Sonny earlier was very eloquent in what he talked about in terms of how people need to come together and talk to each other. And we have a department where most of the officers don't live in the community. They don't. And we have rapid diversification within the community. We've had some unfortunate incidents where like literally training went out the window and what you're left with is to say, hey, this was bias. Would this have happened if this person was white? Probably not. When we look at the Derry Milley case, which then a lot of shockwaves to the community. It really changed things for a lot of people in terms of how you look like and how it can affect how you're treated by people that you may need to help you out. So, I think being, I don't always feel that the department has been willing to take a look at that. To take a look at patterns by officers to really focus on particular officers that may need assistance. We've seen reporting in the past that shows if you put certain officers in certain areas during certain times of day that they're more likely to have use force incidents against people of color. Now, is that because of the, are you stationed downtown and you're stationed downtown? You're gonna be dealing with more types of stuff.  So, these are the things I'd like to see looked at and these are the things I feel in the past when brought up. It's like, no, we're not gonna talk about that information. And I think we need to talk about that information. Even if you talk about an executive session, even if you just say that you're doing it, because really now was really the first time that you said that you're looking at that and looking at what particular officers might be doing. And then having a frank conversation, I always feel that bias training has just gotten a raw deal. It's like, what bias training do you do? Well, we do bias training. Well, what bias training do you do? We do bias training. That literally has been the example and since I didn't wanna go off with another monologue or a solid queen. I will leave it there. Thank you. Thank you, Mila. Any further questions or comments on this agenda item? Not seeing or hearing any. Just moving on to item 8.01. Obviously, we don't need to hear the whole report written out, but did anybody have any questions? I think that with regards to the support report, what are the questions that I think are getting narrowed down that wouldn't be needed in any further discussion? Can I have a pen? I have one question. And this is with regards to number 10. I believe that was the one where it was UMPD. So most of that occurred before brought to PDE showed up. Yes, some of it did. I mean, they actually did call us. They were at Gene Nantz, I guess, no matter. That's their property, even though it's in the Peralington opposite of Pearl Street. Okay, that's a huge clarifying thing. Okay, I thought it was more like on campus problem. No, no, they were right there and there was an alarm going off. I don't know what it was, but they were trying to do an investing game of what was going on and this intoxicated male coming up to them and they were trying to concentrate on figuring out why this alarm was going off obviously for the safety reasons and then after a while they called us to it. This guy is just completely getting in the way of us trying to figure out what's going on there and we ended up dealing with them and our officers, it's like, okay, you just need to leave and he left and kept coming back and left multiple times where the officers just sounded like, please, just go home, it's okay.  Like he's obviously going to put himself in a situation where maybe he gets himself in a fight so they try to take him into protective custody. And I just want to clarify, if I remember one of the jean mans is on pro street about four or five houses up from the corner of Pearl and Willard. Are you crossing the old taps? All right, cool, that's great. And he did, I was able to get the BAC and that one he was a .203, which is... All right, that was my only question there. That was the clarifying one. The jean mans, he's like, did you really call us? I was like, yes, but it was, they had a good reason to call. Anybody have any further questions on the force report? Can I just, I just want to point out, we were talking about lessons learned and stuff like that. We did deal with, on the end there, there was a missing juvenile and there was a chins with this young man that is on the spectrum. He's functioning, but he, these are just two in here, but we have dealt with him also in the past. So it was one of those ones where officers knew who he was that he did run away from home a lot. He would just be in like his adult diver. This first call was at like three in the morning when the mom heard they wanted to go off on the door. So there are things in place. And then we got a 911 call almost immediately like there's a, somebody running down the belt line in a diver, wearing a diaper. So I think this is a good example like where officers really tried to slow things out or at least make them safe. We ended up closing the belt line on that one, just shutting it down so we weren't getting any traffic because our biggest worry was him getting hit by a car. And then they, you know, they followed along and we got the mother on scene in this one and, you know, tried to talk to him. He was uncooperative and he was getting near, you know, the end of the, yeah, that was quite a distance he covered for me, the Ethan Allen homestead.  It was, it was a very low level, just putting him in handcuffs, getting him back in the cruiser. And, you know, we had in the past dealt with him where we had just been able to put him in the cruiser without having to put any handcuffs on him. But in this situation, he just was, you know, he was getting near the guardrails at the overpass or obviously didn't want him to like leap over to the side or something like that. And then almost, I think, date-wise, I believe the next call was the next morning. And once again, he was found in the same area but this time with rush hour traffic. And once again, we were, you know, the officers are aware of him and they're trying to like, they did drive up and open the cruiser door because they hadn't worked in the past where he would just walk over and get in the cruiser, shut the door and drive him back down to the mom. In this case, that didn't work, but I mean, one of the officers literally like kind of threw themselves in front of him so he wouldn't get, you know, struck by a car. So I just think it's a good, just to point out that we are, we're trying, we're learning, we're adapting when we're dealing in these situations. And yeah, I just thought they were pretty good, two pretty good examples since we had been talking about that earlier in the session. Thank you for this. Yeah, thank you for that. Appreciate that, thank you. All right, has no further questions or comments with any support support for that item? I have the commendations if you can. All right, cause let's say Shana's not here so we can't do that. What, No, we can't. Judd out of back point zero one, commendations received for July, August. Okay, so this is a communication that came in from an individual. I spoke with Officer Curvy today regarding a late report incident where my car's dash cam recorded a possible domestic assault while parked, unattended and the vehicle was damaged minimally. Officer Curvy was extremely professional and took the time to address my concerns. He represents Burlington PD well. There are two more letters. This is another communication description of incident. We thought our family member with memory loss had been walking without us knowing Officer Wilson was everything one would expect of an ideal police officer, helpful, understanding, respectful and professional. None of the tough guys, serious face, macho stuff just a good police. Thanks. Finally, this came from a community group that uses, I believe it uses the community space of the police department. Hi, Shannon, just a quick note from our group and myself thanking you in BPD for your accommodations and especially the kindness being shown almost each week from your various associates. It is almost like returning home with the statements like so glad to have your group back with us. It is showing that things are almost back to normal again and similar kind words. That is just what it feels like. Our original group of about 70 is now growing in its early stages and about 30 showing up each week. Over the years, I've always made the statement that anything I can or we can do to be of assistance in some way, please let me know. Again, thank you so much. Thank you for that. I have a question. Just real quick, I'm just wondering why we haven't, we're putting on the complaints or the incident reports, use of force incident reports. Why can't we put on the accommodations? Well, I'm not sure, I'm just wondering. Some of it is just the confidentiality of, is there officers, family members who, so it's identified. Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean you could redact those. Yeah, but this is public, I think we're in public form now. Right, so I didn't read any of the names. And I changed like the specific family member, I just was more general. As opposed to the ones themselves which often say, you came to my house at this address and interacted with my child named this and it's very identifying and so we wouldn't want, you'd want to be careful about placing those in the public office. That makes perfect sense, thanks very much. All right, thank you for that. We've got 10.01, commissioner updates or comments. So if you have, I'm just jumping in, I'm sorry. No, you can jump right in. So, if you didn't hear the city council last night, the expectation is that the CNA report, the final report will issue Friday as if the anticipated release date. Thank you. I'll say welcome back you all. We missed you brother and good to have you here back with us. Questions or comments from commissioners? Not hearing any, moving on to next meeting agenda items. So I've got for October 26th, ironically enough, policy issues, I mean I've listed things like Hazer policy, mental health policy, juvenile policy, de-escalation, person with disabilities, social media and others. We don't have someone to sort of do the wrangling to get things together for that meeting yet. So we need to volunteer. Those are a lot of policy things too. We're not gonna get to all of them, probably, but we should decide together which ones we want to focus on and then we're looking at also at NACOL policies also. So the tandem of what our policies here and what NACOL is suggesting. Maybe we should just pick two or three for next month. Yeah. Well, so this might tie in. One of the agenda items is Brian Korr. He's tentatively scheduled to come in October to speak with us. I think that was the trauma informed. Yeah, okay. So he has tentatively said yes, we were gonna schedule him for 30, 40 minutes. Maybe that ties in with which policies to focus on. And Stephanie and I will work on the logistics of having him participate. Okay. So we're talking about trauma the next time? Done. Here we go. Yeah, and if you wanna be involved with how we define the scope for him because it's not much time, that's really hard to ask someone to speak for so little time. Should we leave that to you and Stephanie? For you. I mean, three of us can coordinate on that. All right, yeah, that and I guess I'll have a light draft for just communication protocols and kind of like how we kind of do that kind of stuff where we can go for 7.04. And I think we'll flush it out between now. Was that, sorry, glad to hand raised? I would love to have a presentation from the department since we were talking earlier about the big increase in drug activity. I spoke to Chief Sullivan last week who's very kind to give me a lot of information as I was working with some community members who presented some issues. It would be really good to know like a public presentation of who are the two, you know, there's two detectives who are the two detectives. What's the best way to report the activity? What type of information do you need from people? So this particular group of individuals that I'm trying to support and assist, the activity that they're describing is going beyond just huge groups of people coming to use. It's sounding like there's definitely some trafficking that's more organized going on. So, you know, we talked about what type of camera systems they could be using but what type of information do they need to give to the police department in order to bring more attention or help? Because this particular house is very close to the sustainability academy. And there are children who live in the building where this activity is going on and it's next to a place that does after-school programs. So it's a really sensitive area in terms of how children are being affected. You know, if it goes beyond DPD and it warrants like a federal investigation, how does that happen? What's the process of that? I don't think people in the community understand that, you know, do they need to be providing information they pick up on the camera? Do they need to be providing license plates that show like how many cars are showing up at a particular time that are out-of-state license plates because they're describing that, you know, groups of cars showing up at specific periods of time. As opposed to just people going in and out and using or making quick buys. So I think that a presentation like that would be very, very helpful because as we talked about where we're seeing, you know, increases in drug use and ODs and people being affected by what's going on in certain homes. And of course, the landlord has their hands tied about evicting someone. We always want to be careful about evictions, but if there was a reason to evict someone, this would be it, but there's an eviction moratorium and everything around COVID. I just feel that that would be very interesting presentation that the public would appreciate. Thank you. I'll just jump in on that. Is that something that could be done? Yes, not revealing the detectives in the door. I was going to jump in. We don't, I'll think we need to, you know, then just because they're out there doing the work. Right, or just to say there are two, this is how you call the department with leads or concerns or, and I know there's once again, a lot of frustration about the resources, but there were, I did talk to Sullivan about concerns with some responses that they had gotten that weren't, I think were born out of frustration, but still weren't appropriate. Someone felt they were being criticized for where they lived and someone else felt that they were. Sorry, I had Susie followed by you. Oh, okay. Sorry, I have a clarifying question. When you say a public presentation, do you mean at one of our meetings? Or is that a public meeting? Yes, yes, that was discussed at a meeting so that people will know, hey, this was on the agenda, if you couldn't watch it live, you can go back and see this presentation and you have an idea of how you can help the department help you. So do you want to do that? Do you think it's too much to put dry up and this presentation on the same night? Or should we shift it to another night? If we don't, it depends on how many other things, I think this would be a robust and doable agenda what we've just talked about, but I think if we continue to add, it's gonna come out. And I also think that that's an important thing. I think that's like, kind of, I think the president will lose a lot of things because that has a pretty great impact on the committee at large. So I mean, I have some tips, I think we got it right now, about my name, about some things, so I would very much... So if we can try to, I mean, we can't predict what's gonna happen in the next three weeks, but I think between those two topics, that should be... Get something on for the next one. And also too, like, we gotta add other things on to it and if we're going too long, you know, let's table those, then if we don't get to for a following meeting as well too, that's always an option. You gotta make sure that they have the time to present. Yeah. Give us a presentation. Yeah, and Chief, maybe just give an IFS idea of how much time we... Yeah, so we can, we'll team back with that and we'll talk to Matt about sort of building on a public version of what he discussed with Commissioner Grant and then we'll... Great, and we know there could be robust dialogue so we just want to set aside enough time. Yeah, we'll give you an estimate of that. Right, I just want to add, you know, as a bit of a landlord, I mean, I've called because I've seen some of my documents have seen activity and it's not that easy, you know, this. So I would like to have some information on that, you know. It's one thing to identify it and let the police know, but it's more complicated than that. We got it. Oh, that's good. You know, I think that's pretty good agenda. So with that, we're going to make motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. Any discussion on adjourning the meeting? I think we should stay forever. I'm the second. All right, all favor, adjourn the meeting. Raise your hand and say aye. Aye. All right, pass to you and Anthony. It is 8.37 p.m. Everyone, thank you for being here with us. And I'll see you and talk to you all soon. And some of you all next month.