مرحباً، أتمنى أنكم جميعاً يمتلكون ومجمعون هذه الصحة نحن نحضر الثلاثة الآن ونتحدث عن محاولة محاولة لذلك متاستتيك أولاً سأخبر أصدقاء أصدقاء أصدقاء أصدقاء نعلم من بعض الأشياء أن نتتخذ منك كثير من المتاستتيك والمتاستتيك والمتاستتيك ونحن نتخذ منك أكثر محاولة لذلك المستخدمين والمشاهدين فهذا هو محاولة محاولة أبداً هناك أخرى محاولة محاولة هذا why نحضر الثلاثة محاولة محاولة لكن هذا هو المعاولة محاولة عليها أن نبدأ من المحاولة هذه محاولة مخاولة المستخدمين في محاولة محاولة وإمكانه أن يكون في محاولة محاولة وابتسل على تدريق محاولة لا يوجد أي محاولة او يوجد محاولة محاولة أولاً خلال عمر أبداً فهي لديه محاولة ولكنه يوجد سلطة أنيمية الهيميغلوبن رد بلد كان is a little low 10.3 ولكن الجميع المنزل are normal لن يوجد أفضل مكتستيك ديزيس ببونسكان بايمراف ديبرين ولكنه يوجد كما سنرى في next slide بولموندرينوديوز ومأس في السلطة right لذا هذا is why he underwent أبابسي of this tumor in the right kidney وانه يظهر أفضل مكتستيك ديبرين كانسر what we call or refer to as clear cell فرمن in grade 3 as you heard from this morning this is an aggressive tumor and as you can see obviously the mass is a large one measuring approximately 14 centimeter this way and about 9 centimeter this way so a fairly large tumor other views you could see that he has in addition to the mass here the big kidney tumor this is the right kidney here what you see of it and there is an enlargement of the right adrenal gland there are two glands over each kidney and there is another adrenal gland on this side on the left side as well here and you can see there are spots in the lungs so he has evidence of metastatic disease to the adrenal glands and to the lungs so what would you offer this patient and question to my panelists and we'll start with our surgeons here Dr. Matin would you do up front site reductive nephrectomy and would you remove both adrenal glands and if so why and if not why not yeah I mean just to be clear we usually do these cases by discussing it with one another I usually walk down his hallway and find him and talk so we don't make these decisions in a vacuum you know my looking at him he's having symptoms of hematuria, blood in the urine the overwhelming majority of the cancer is in the kidney and so I would consider actually doing removal of the kidney and removing the adrenal on that side whether you remove the cancer and the opposite adrenal or not it gets to be a little complicated because sometimes there are clinical trials that they can be eligible for after removal of the kidney but not if they're on steroid replacement if you remove both the adrenal glands the patient has to go on lifelong steroid replacement and so it's just something to talk about I think most clinical trials now don't exclude that factor so it's just one of those things you want to think about just so you can set everything up for success but it's a discussion that needs to be had whether or not you remove that or not that would be my thinking is just to do surgery first at least the very least remove kidney and the adrenal on that side consider the other side Dr. Karam do you agree? yes I would agree with Dr. Matin and like he said we don't make these decisions in a vacuum we always discuss among each other like we're talking now in a less formal setting but I would choose option number one after discussion with you unless there is a clinical trial that he is eligible for and wants to enroll choice number one would be my recommendation would you remove both adrenal glands or just epsilon? if the aim is to make him disease free in the abdomen and retroperitoneum and if it doesn't interfere with any planned clinical trials I would try to render him disease free but you would remove both adrenal glands and the kidney and the lymph nodes as well okay Dr. Wood? yeah the issue here is I would recommend a pre-settler reductive surgery and the real issue about the adrenals not only clinical trials but if you take both adrenals and it takes IL-2 off the table and this patient young excellent performance status just metastatic disease to the lung and adrenal لذلك يجب أن تقوم with the adrenal glands, you would take that off the table for the patient and I'd have that discussion with him but I think at the end of the day, definitely cytroductive defect to me, definitely removal of the right adrenal and then a discussion about the left adrenal and if the medical oncologist thinks that IL2 might be a good choice for this patient then I would leave that left adrenal. Dr. Pillay, would you recommend upfront systemic therapy instead of surgery? No, I agree with my colleagues. I think the challenge also for systemic therapy, you would commit this patient to a therapy that might not need immediately. These are what we call synchronous metastasis. Meaning the patient has neurodegenerative kidney cancer and also unfortunately has small lesion in the lungs and in the adrenal but he might not need therapy right away. A different story probably for immunotherapy where we want to try to treat the patient when the tumor is rarely small so I would say I would agree removing the kidney and assess the patient where it would be candidate for high dosing to look into. Dr. Harrison, what do they do at Duke? I totally agree. I mean I think this is a great patient to get cytroductive nephrectomy and then the patient is young, sounds like it's healthy, has only a few risk factors and would otherwise be appropriate for high dosing or looking too and so we'd really be thinking about that. Okay. Alright, so now we did the surgery, we took the kidney out and we took the right adrenal gland out and as per the recommendation of our surgeons they left adrenal gland in. Now the patient recovers from surgery and is anxious to start systemic therapy. What would you pick from this menu? Dr. Piele? I think if the disease is only in the lungs and has a really too little nodal, there is nothing wrong actually for the patient to wait because we don't know how fast this tumor has been growing. If the patient is motivated I would say yes I would offer high dosing to look into. We have a trial of a Rouser and Hopkins where we combine with Antinostat. It's an agent that makes IL-2 hopefully work better. But I would also discuss even as young, just maybe doing other scans in two or three months to get a sense of how fast those lung donors are growing. Because sometimes we do see that those lung donors do not grow and why committed the patient to a therapy that unlikely will cure his cancer but will definitely make him sick. Actually I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to ask you, ask earlier, before we had the TKI's that was sort of standard practice. You know we used to do the surgery and we'd send them to you guys but then in about 30% of cases you guys wouldn't treat. Partly because the therapies weren't really that effective. But I'm glad you brought that up because it seems like the threshold to want to treat is lower now. Yeah I would not say it's lower but I think it's, I think not because we have a therapy but we have to use it right away. And I think it's a discussion that we need to do with the patients. And some patients are uncomfortable. I mean I need to disclose I'm here actually to learn today not to talk about what I do because I want to learn also from you since you are patients and it's important for us also to get some feedback so we should discuss all these things with patients that are actually involved in the care. So you know I think it's an open question especially when we don't know the natural history of this disease and we know that sometimes kidney cancer grows very slowly. As you point out that most of the tumor was in the kidney and it's really left a little bit left behind. So there were nothing wrong to watch it. Dr. Haresap, would you like to add? The patient still has pulmonary nodules six weeks post op with repeat imaging studies. The left adrenal gland was left in place. So he has metastatic disease to the lungs and to the left adrenal gland. And the patient will do what you recommend. If you recommend as Dr. Peel is recommending since he is asymptomatic to assess the behavior of this tumor after a while or would you say let's go ahead we have a window to cure you let's try to start some systemic therapy now without delay or would you observe for longer? Well I think I mean for the purposes of this we're trying to be definitive so to be definitive I don't disagree with what Dr. Pilley said and I don't disagree that it would be okay to watch the patient. I mean we have so many options nowadays I don't know that you're going to lose a lot by monitoring for a little while and perhaps talking with the patient about their wishes more but you also hate for a chance to miss a cure and so what we're talking about when we're talking about Hytocenterolucan 2 is we're talking about the only therapy that induces what we think are durable complete responses and so those are it varies depending where you look but maybe at 3 years 5 to 8% of patients have a durable complete response again again varies and you hate to miss that now I don't know that we would really miss that window if we waited for 3 months so I can't really push back that hard but this is the type of patient that I would be a little bit more directive and personally at least in trying to get them to consider and understand Hytocenterolucan 2 and understand what it could offer them and if we don't offer it to have a good reason why not okay well so the patient undergoes cytroductive nephrectomy with ipsilateral adrenalectomy the pathology is consistent with clear cell fermentically grade 4 T3A and 0M1 and he started on the standard dose and schedule and 3 months later the patient has restaging and it shows partial response in the lungs and no change in the left adrenal gland and the therapy is continued but it had to be reduced by 25% because of side effects predominantly here hand foot skin reaction and 6 months later there is evidence of progression in the lungs with new tumors as well as increase in size of the existing tumors and increase in the left adrenal gland and a new solitary liver metastasis now what would you what would your option be now Dr. Peelan you have the option of serial metastasis but first of all I would be curious why IL2 was not offered or whether it was offered to this patient and the patient declined as we know unfortunately with all the caviat and limitation and toxicity is still not offered to the majority of patients who are candidates for this approach but it looks like this patient is progressing with new lesion so this is definitely warrants change in plan I think I found that opportunity to increase the dose of sunedin to 50 and why is that we are being experiencing and also other that definitely there is a dose dependent effect what does that mean the more drug we can give it to the patient the better it is but we started also looking at that in some patients who are able to tolerate sunedin at the time of progression if we are able to dose escalate to increase the dose we see responses we have some very nice data also in animals where we observe the same things we started with sunedin at the time of Resista we increased the dose we see response but I think usually the approach if a patient experiences severe toxicity as a certain dose of sunedin we tend not to go back on higher dose of sunedin in this patient unless it's totally the 37.5 very well and we know that as also I know that you have a manuscript from your institution in term of intrapatient dose escalation different schedule of sunedin it might be helpful so maybe this patient might still be able to go to 50 but two weeks on the schedule probably is more tolerable for patients and we can still achieve a higher level of this drug so maybe consider also that long answer to a short question but alternative I would probably look for a different mechanism of action of the drug so I'm not a big fan of sequencing this drug they have the same mechanism to go with the everolimus or a clinical trials that include everolimus okay doctor Harrison since the patient did not get high dose interleukin 2 up front and received sunedin instead would you consider high dose interleukin 2 now I would not consider high dose interleukin 2 at this point I think there's definitely limited data but what data we have shows that the high dose interleukin 2 is probably more toxic when it's given so I know it has been done in some cases but I would not recommend that Doctor Wood any role for surgery here No there's no role for surgery here the disease is too extensive and I think that my recommendation to this patient would be to do everolimus or a clinical trial and I think the teaching point here also is that the window of opportunity with high docile 2 was when the patient first presented it was the ideal candidate but that bridge has been burned with getting the targeted therapy okay so we move on to another case this is a 55 year old male with history of kidney cancer in the past he had a right radical nephrectomy with IVC thrombectomy more than a decade ago and the pathology as shown clear cell T3B and 0M0 Furman Grade 3 and he underwent routine surveillance studies last was 2 years ago which was negative he has no symptoms except for history of prosthetic hypertrophy and kidney stones now by cat scan of the chest he has multiple small pulmonary nodules but no other disease elsewhere what would you offer this patient and do you see here also Chris so this is a you know many patients ask when they are getting surveilled in the clinic when can we stop this when can I stop getting cat scans now here's a guy that's 14 years out from surgery and now has a disease in his left adrenal gland the other key point here and Nizar maybe you can point it out is that when they did the right radical nephrectomy they left the right adrenal gland which is important because again putting someone on adrenal replacement therapy for the rest of their life is not a very can you point out the right adrenal putting that's there's the left but you can see see on that picture right there on the down is in there but you know making someone adrenal insufficient and having to take adrenal replacement therapy for the rest of their life is not very appealing so we have a solitary metastasis to the adrenal no other evidence of metastatic disease in my mind this patient would best be served by metastasectomy where we would go in and remove that mass with the associated left adrenal and then observe afterward what about the you know yeah I mean that's the issue that they're indeterminate they could represent metastatic disease but I would argue that if we sit and wait to see if they developed then they will be metastatic disease and so you know we'd have to counsel the patient that you do have these indeterminate nodules in the lung and that those nodules could represent metastatic disease and you might require additional systemic therapy in the future but you know 55 years old I say you know swing for the fences and and one one one one one one 5 1 5 1 1 1


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Welcome back to the breakfast on plus TV Africa. We had straight to a second conversation where you have Nigerians Union. Some group are saying that Nigerians Union is right for negotiation and to make sense of all of this we will be speaking with Mark Adeboye who is a public affairs analyst. I beg your pardon Mark Adeboye a public affairs analyst. All right good morning Mark Adeboye it's good to have you join us. Yeah good morning. Good morning my sister. Implement of decision. Okay so let's talk about this you have you know the group who have actually come out to say yes it's time for us to have that renegotiation. Let's have the you know conversation as to allowing some persons because we also want to agree with me that there's a constitutional review that's going on. Now the argument here is that you need to suspend the constitutional review and a call for you know a referendum for those who are agitating for self-determination you know to go their way. So we understand who we have in Nigeria. Well like let's understand what's happening let's understand who is left. This is what you know you have this group of persons saying. Thank you so much. Good morning once again. Can you hear me? Yes we can hear you go ahead. Okay I think this conversation is long overdue. You know the biggest lies the biggest lie that we have been telling one another in this country for a very long time is that the unity of Nigeria is non-negotiable. All that is border-dash you know the unity of a country cannot be based on injustice and we expect that unity to to survive which cannot. So Nigeria has been long overdue for renegotiation for a rediscoction and a rediscovery for us to move forward as a as a country because Nigeria is not actually a nation we are just a country you know because of the of our differences which has which have been exacerbated in the last six years plus of the Bwari administration. We have never been this divided. We have never been this ethno-religiously conscious you know. So Nigeria has been long overdue for renegotiation. So like I said at the beginning the biggest lie we have told ourselves this country is divided. Nigeria's unity or union is non-negotiable. Now they can be further from the truth. You know you cannot say for the sake of family solidarity for you to remain in an abusive marriage for instance.  That you are alive that you are alive is more precious than being remaining in a marriage. Many people are foolishly remaining in a violent marriage that eventually cost them their lives. So we cannot have a country where we the Far Con cannot hear the Far Con and we expect us to remain without discussing the the basis upon which we are going to proceed as a country you know. We need to give opportunity to people who have divergent views about the continuous existence of Nigeria as a corporate entity. We need to we need to allow them to give expression to their views through referendum which has been long overdue. If we are if you know some of us are the level of confederalism organization to which I belong. We were advocating for destruction in the country but it's like that one is already late in the day because why we were advocating for destruction the powers that be wouldn't want to hear about that.  So I I believe first of all to that everything here in Nigeria know that this country is long overdue for renegotiation. We need to discuss Nigeria. We need to come to the table and you know discuss the basis upon which we want to continue to live together as a corporate entity. So if we allow that to happen for instance we allow for a referendum you know for people to even determine first and foremost whether they want to continue to remain within the corporate Nigeria we are we need to determine that whether the north wants to continue whether the south southeast want to continue or south south or southwest not central not west north east so we are we need to for for us to come together at a round table to discuss whether we want to continue as a corporate entity and upon what basis are we continuing and if you are not going to continue if some people feel strongly about opting out they wish it's a constitutional and international you know right there are international legal instruments that allow for that and we should not silence people who believe that Nigeria should be negotiated and of course for people to now determine the basis upon which we will continue to live together. Alright Mr. Adebayo but let's look at Nigeria historically and talk of you know when it comes to the nation's union you know all the roundtables and discussions that you know have been held you know the CNG is saying that I'm fine let's do a referendum let's those calling for self-determination you know actually know if that's would actually work but if I were to ask you know do you think that if Nigerians were to get what they want as in the secessionist those with the secessionist theory get what they want do you think the country would be better off for it judging by the fact that some people ordinary cannot even generate time their own income internally. Well you see it is not different about whether some entities are viable or not it is for us to discover or to discuss what really led to this call what led to this call it is primarily and fundamentally caused by leadership failure you know leadership failure this Nigeria will have a great country I believe we are better together I don't think we are greater together but when you begin to see the politics in their face almost criminal manner whereby some people now begin to feel like fifth class citizen in their own country where if you are not from a particular part of the country if you are not from a particular religion you are not considered a Nigerian like like you know for instance some of us now believe that the fullerization agenda is real if the Bwari administration has no help matters you know nobody has come with this agitationist and self-determinationist issues pre-bwari when it was during the June 12th with the Yoruba people felt justifiably hot and unjustly dealt with when the June 12th relation was announced and the identity of that June 12th relation was was modern so we got angry I said okay okay you know we've got to have or do our self-determination groups we've got to have Yoruba nation groups that was good but after the June 12th issues no sort of went down and of course the country had to move on nobody was talking about that again but immediately Bwari came in. Bwari exacerbated our ethoreligious diversity rather than you know the kind of diversity we have is something that will have made another country great if we were to have the right leadership so it is failure of leadership if there were justice nobody would be demanding for the freedom in fact nobody would be demanding for self-determination nobody would be asking for a renegotiation of Nigeria Nigeria the largest black country in the world will have been better together but for the fact that it is being rubbed on our faces that if you are not the full and if you are not the northerner you are like second class or third class citizen in this country because the Bwari administration has failed to manage our diversity in the manner that will give confidence and hope to all Nigerians that yes we can continue as a country the asking the demand for self-determination the demand for renegotiation of Nigeria is on the basis of the injustices and graphited injustices as promoted by the Bwari administration let me give you one instance the issue of killer others the issue of killer others others that move about killing people in their farms in their towns and now they are graduated to become bandits and become terrorists and then each of the states especially in the south say look even in the north are saying that look we cannot have people under the guise of hardening culture you know committing such heinous criminal activities we are going to have state security agencies to be able to do that because the police refused to anything if you go to the position and report anything about killer others nobody's going to they won't they won't attend to you they don't they are they won't attend to I don't I do not know that is why in one of my interviews I said that like an organization like Mie Tiala and all these kato others are preferelled terrorists under the Bwari administration because you cannot touch them the security agencies will not touch them you if if cows invade your your farm or if I invade your your environment or your community like it happened in the state where kato was sent into a primary school and they went to a classroom and the the police had to run and live their and live their classes that is the kind of impunity that these killer others have under the Bwari administration that is why you see that the Bwari administration has refused to agree that that should be an arranging of kato rather than having a free roaming of animus each time any issue the only issue that this administration is emotional about is passionate about is when we come to the issue of killer others we would say we don't want free roaming of animus they will come up and say no you cannot do this to people's businesses if you say we want to ranching that is everybody should go and ranch their kato the the federal government through garbache or through family additional will come up against Nigerians that are asking for that why because they want to give privilege to some people who are from from part of the country and that is even if they are that is not what they are doing even that is not what they are doing if that is their not their intention that is the impression they are creating for all of us if really the issue of these killer others became and we got out of hand that was when you discovered that was when the issue of the same determination and people and agitation for you know for the country to be dismembered became rife because the government has continued to support these killer others you remember that four or five years ago the federal government offered me a tiara 100 billion era just so that that will not be violent they will not be killing people they offer i'm sure you remember that that happened in this country that was a negotiation i just want to say no we want a minimum of 200 billion so they know that these guys are violent characters but the government rather than deal with them they decided to bribe them but some of us rose up in our voices and began to shout out that it's not going to happen why should we do that why should you know cartoony is the private business it is not something that the federal government will now begin to remember what family additional said and then you give your land you give your life so it's the choice is yours how can there is no responsible government in the world that that will say that so that is why i said let's talk about the causes of these agitations you know let's all do let's all do the causes number one cause is failure of leadership failure of leadership the inability or the unwillingness to manage our diversity in a way that will please everybody that is the cause of these things nobody wanted Nigeria to to be dismembered nobody wanted Nigeria to disunite but when you have a leadership that is unable to guarantee justice that is unable to guarantee equity that is unable to guarantee even progress and development in the country people want to say look i think i'm better off to be on my own part of the country i think that is the issue we have to fix our leadership issue we have to fix our leadership question it is the leadership question that is releasing the Nigerian question and we have to answer those two okay let's also look at some of the consensus some persons have raised over time i mean the issue or the fact that Nigeria is an illegal entity in the sense that the treaty of the treaty of amalgamation of 1914 you know that brought Nigeria together has expired and so we're looking at you know in 2014 that Nigeria right now is an illegal entity and some quarters are saying that there's no validation of that you know in the law or history in the sense that there's no recognition of whether there's anything as you know the amalgamation authority that brought Nigeria together so we would like to get you know your thoughts on this particular you know contention that's ongoing well the 1940s amalgamation was merely a socioeconomic and administrative convenience of the british it's never it's not a constitutional issue it's not a legal issue it is in the face of the law as far as i'm concerned it is non-assistant i wrote a book that we are i wrote a book the title of that book is that there is no Nigeria yet where i said Nigeria is an incomplete now and when used as a negative it qualifies nothing and identifies nobody there is no Nigeria anywhere so amalgamation that treaty is even a much more you know noble noble word for this water that was no treaty that was no that was that was nothing like that that was no we have anybody any group of Nigerians sat down to say that okay we want to be Nigerians that was never any that was no treaty that was no meeting that was no conference that was no confab where anybody historically and constitutional and legally speaking where anybody or group of people sat down to say that we want to be Nigerians no what we what happened i want to talk about the founding father of Nigeria that there are no Nigerians who are founding fathers of Nigeria there are no Nigerians living or dead who are founding fathers of Nigeria what we had were inheritors of Nigeria from the British that were the British are the founding fathers of Nigeria they are the ones that gave us the name they are the ones that that that were ruling us through in the red in the red room that the one who decided okay it is time to now amalgamate the northern and southern territory of Nigeria so there were no Nigerians who ever sat down anywhere to say that we wanted to be Nigerian even to be allowed to fight as Nigerians it is not it's not in history you understand so and i should know because i'm a historian i studied history in the university so and so the the issue of uh you want to uh this united Nigeria then we were never even united in the so to speak so and i am saying that we accept accepted the amalgamation we grew up to accept Nigeria as Nigeria because Nigeria was working you know why because the parliamentary system that we inherited from the British was working for us because of the kind of diversity that we had that we have as a country so we had the parliamentary system of government whereby the south west was in the south the midwest was in the or the south the north was not where was so we had this decentralized system of governance that allows each section of the country to make progress at its own pace with within its capacity and the resources are fully built to it that was why we were able to have the kind of wonders and miracles that Aula was uh that the Aula was able to to to perform in the first division of Africa the first country in Africa there were a lot of there are many things that are still surviving today that nobody has been able to replicate what Aula did in the southwest nobody in fact socially academically educationally health wise in terms of agriculture in terms of the economy in terms of even in terms of the politics and in terms of the leadership nobody no governor has been able to replicate what he did and i want to say and the same thing for the for the for the midwest and the same thing for the for the north on the Amarubello so we have not been able to immediately the building came in on a general agency and and killed the federal system and brought in this unitarized see this unitary system you know that was when Nigeria began to go backwards that that was when every institution like universities for instance that belong to uh the southwest the university that belong to the north the like Amarubello university the stuff for the southwest of Afema Aula university and all the institutions that the federal government took over are now the worst for it now you should have allowed we should have allowed that the centralized system to continue if we are continuing i believe that stuff for instance will have been in dubai of africa now but where are we today where are we today so the the issue is that even if Nigeria were to continue that's why we are asking for the structure let us go back go back to regional the regional system that used to work for us let's go back to the regional system if we don't want Nigeria to be dismembered we have to structure Nigeria if we don't want Nigeria to rupture we have to restructure it you understand me so that we let's go back to the regional system that was working for Nigeria this all encompassing or powerful all major federal government sitting down in Abuja and dictating what happens at the local council level cannot work for Nigeria Nigeria is too diverse to be to you know to be imprisoned within the cocoon of unauthorized repressive system that we are having at this moment we cannot work i mean i'm just chipping if we know the basics of you know a federal system a federal system is not that you know unitarized like you have mentioned or all together powers being separated amongst you know the three levels of government or what have you so i don't know i mean some people have argued that federalism has always been the answer so maybe we're not just practicing the federalism that we should practice and that's why we're experiencing what we're experiencing the federalism that we have in Nigeria has been mismanaged okay let me let me give you an instance the governors the state governors are being humored they are the humored them they call them the chief security officers of their state but the governor that thing governor cannot give order to the commissioner of police if the for the governor to give order to the commissioner of police to do something he would have to call the IGP the IGP will now give order to this commissioner the commissioner under this current system the commissioners of police are actually the chief security officers of the state because remember during that mention when that mention was governor of river steve the see the simply the the police block his way the governor is sitting governor of the state the block is where they say you cannot you cannot pass through this place they said order from above exceeding governor and that's supposed to be the chief secretary of the state and he was the problem they forgot for him to be shot no he got wiser and talked back in the city governor in his home state could not could not pass through a place they say the police block the way the CPC said they should not allow him to pass and he could not he could not pass if he had been there they would have shot him. The檢 Whether the the the it is the thing that come in that control the police you know, so it is not a federal system. We are the governor of the state, the CP. You remember what happened to Chris Igigay, when he was governor of Anambra state, you know, the commissioner of police, and here he moved to the state house and adopted a sitting governor in Anambra state, Chris Igigay. You know this goes in recent memory, so we call that federalism, you know, this is not a federal, this is a unitarized federal system we are practicing in this country. The constitution is a lie. It is, it is, it is false. Decree, is it Decree 40 or Decree 24 of 1999? So it is not, it's not the full constitution, it's a decree. Why are you saying it's a decree? You know, so it's a decree. It's a basic decree. All right, let's talk about it. So we don't have true federalism. What we are having is just concorded, you know, false federalism. This is not federalism. This is, this is a caricature of federalism. All right, Mr. Adebayah, in your, you know, in your exchange, you talked about the need to restructure and all of that, because a whole lot of conversation has actually gone out concerning this topical issue, restructuring. So some people restructuring means some devolution of past. Restructuring means a change of system of government. Restructuring also means resource control. And you also said that Nigeria walked better back in the day when we had a parliamentary system of government, where each region also had enough powers, you know, to handle some of the affairs. But then again, what is restructuring to you? Restructuring to me is to restructuring Nigeria for every zone of the country to have the powers of the authority to determine its fate. Devolution of power. And I wish you, it is not really devolution of power. I'm talking about a wholesome total restructuring in terms of the fact that we don't want the devolution of power under a federal system. We want regional system, internalism. If possibly even a confederation, maybe if you just turn Nigeria to confederation, that would be restructuring for me. That would be restructuring for me, because I don't want to have, I don't want to have a situation where I'll be in the country where I will feel inferior to somebody else, because the person in power believe that some people have the power to offer power and orders. So let us go back to regionalism. I would, look, I am for Nigeria. I am for a social Nigeria. But where restructuring becomes difficult, then of course I will opt to go for Yoruba Nation. I will opt for Yoruba Nation. But for now I am not for Yoruba Nation. I'm not for the displacement of the country. But where it socially becomes difficult or impossible, so people make it so impossible. Then of course, let us, let everybody go their own way. I mean, I will not, I will not talk about regionalism again. I will just talk about the fact that, okay, I want my Yoruba Nation. Let the Yoruba Nation. And of course, look at the coalition of Northern Nigeria, that they are not coming together. You know, they are beginning to see the same some that the Southerners have been seeking for long. They are now beginning to see the fact that Nigeria is becoming an abattox of everybody. They are now saying, okay, I think there will be peace. If for the sake of justice, let me negotiate Nigeria. And please, this country can see work. I don't want you to misunderstand me, this country can see work. But what we need to do is to get the leadership right at the center. Let us get the leadership right at the center. Even under a federal arrangement, where you have good leadership, nobody will talk about it socially. Nobody is going to talk about this member of the country. Nobody is going to talk about self-determination. If you have sterling leaders, if you have sterling quality leaders in the country at the center of power, if somebody who is able to manage our diversity in a way that our diversity becomes an asset and not a problem to us. If you have a leader that is able to unite people, a leader that is able to ensure progress, development, and justice in the country, you will see that nobody, everybody will go silent. Everybody will go silent. Nobody, we will be talking about self-determination and all these things. You know, some people were pushed to the wall and the answer that they had no, they had no option to give them. Probably to become violent, or probably to even begin to escalate their demand towards a less civil war. It's because of injustices. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have peace. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have progress. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have unity. Unity should not come first. The scholars should talk about socio-political and economic justice in the land before we talk about unity and peace. That is it. So failure of leadership is what is leading to the failure of Nigeria as a corporate entity. Nigeria has never, from independence the date, has never been able to be blessed by a patriotic, committed, visionary leader. We have not been lucky to have one. So I'd like to take you on that now, Mark Adebayo. So you have actually mentioned that the system of governance that we are preaching on, even though in the books we say we're a federal government, we're a federal system, well in its sense you have mentioned that we're practicing a unitary system of government. Where you have so much power in the center. But don't you think that it's not about the pattern of government or the type of government that we're practicing? It's just about the people who are calling the shots and running the affairs. And you have also said that we have never had any leader, that's what you're saying, that we've never been blessed to have some kind of good leadership. So I really don't know, you are advocating that we should go back to regional governance. And that might just take us away from all of this quest for self-determination. On the other hand, I'd like to share your thoughts on that. Now, I also want to find out if Nigeria is a signatory to the African Chata that allows Article 20 that allows for self-determination. Why are we very hesitant about that? Well, you are very correct on your premise and your submission that, you know, sort of confirm what I said earlier that we have not been lucky to have. All right, we'll try and reconnect with Mark Adebayo because I think we have him back. Hello, Mike. Mark, can you hear us? All right, we'll try and reconnect with Mark as we are about rounding off this particular discourse. Mercy Day has been so much talk concerning the system of government, the issue of leadership in the resource control, devolution of power, restructuring. A lot of people have different notions concerning that particular concept.  We should not think that, really, maybe we go back to regionalism or we go back to, you know, parliamentary system or whatever, you know, or every social Nigeria. It doesn't mean that automatically it is a rule. Every house has its own bad boy. Every house has, every family has its own black sheep.  It's not going to be automatic. If I have my urban nation now, and if the same characters that are mismanaging and mislead Nigeria are now the ones to lead the urban nation, we are going to, it's going to be back to zero. It's going to be back to zero. So we have to, if we are able to manage our diversity, if we are able to manage our leadership recruitment processes in a way that could do the best among us to lead the country, Nigeria doesn't have to go. Nigeria doesn't have to go because if each local government in Nigeria becomes a separate state, it's becoming a deficit state, we may not experience progress if we are having the same crop of terrible human beings. We don't have a political class in Nigeria. We don't have a political class. What we have is a political clique. We have political cliques who are parading themselves as a political class. It's not a shame that after 16 years of independence, we cannot point at one leader that is able to say that, oh, this is one, at the national level, I mean, what is taking us from point A to point B in terms of progress, in terms of development. Or we are having our leaders and ethno-religious bigots who divide us, who even exacerbate our diversity. Okay, so let's get to our thoughts on the fact that, I mean, because we're almost at a time, Nigeria is actually a signatory to the African chatter.  So why are we dragging foods and not allowing the people, you know, to decide whether or not they want to be together or go the accepted ways? Avoiding that action, that kind of action is not a collective, it is not a collective responsibility of Nigerians. It is the responsibility, it is the fear of the people that benefit from the rot of the other benefit of Nigeria. Those who benefit from, you know, they want a larger Nigeria where they can have more to loot. It is not a collective, Nigeria's demand for that to actuate, to sort of, you know, bring to light that chatter of demand. But the parts that are being, the political cliques, those who benefit from the rot, from the other development of Nigeria are the ones who are already away from self-determination. The common people on the streets who tell you that you want self-determination, because of course this movement has actually made this so look so difficult for Nigeria to continue as a coverage entity. It is a leadership problem, my sister, it's a leadership issue. Alright, thank you Mark Adebayo. Indeed we have been speaking about the state of Nigeria's politics, economy and of course what we need to do going forward. If we need to take that step and do a referendum and ensure that each individual gets to speak what they actually want, you know, as Nigerians. We have been speaking with Mark Adebayo, he's a public affairs analyst. Many thanks for sharing your thought and your input on this particular discourse. We do appreciate it. Alright, thank you for joining us. Alright, in a moment when we return from this quick break, we'll be focusing on crime security, our customs intercept container leading with guns, a tink and island port in the moment and then is, you know, Macri as former assistant director of DSS will be joining us to discuss more on that in a moment. Don't go away.