Потому что я все-таки хорошо, но есть несколько онлайн-лекторов и людей, которые ждут для нас. Может быть, они не имеют эту красивую кофе, как мы. Окей, добро пожаловать и давайте начнем. Я снова начну. Я покажу вам небольшую презентацию на оборудовании инновативных реактов. Мы получим много информации об этих реакторах в этом неделе. И я просто покажу вам. Во-первых, я расскажу о классификации, о том, как мы делаем это, и о том, что происходит между дживом, терминологией и айетерминологией. У нас есть несколько новостей. Мы покажем экологические и физические соперники, которые описывают истинные реакции, и ее финициация. Я покажу вам 6 дживов, 4 реакторных концепций. И также покажем вам простые статусы на первых реакторах. Каринт статусов на первых реакторах. Генерация для интернета-формы – это большая организация, которая соединяет в несколько странах, которые интересуются в развитии инновации. Генерация для реактов. Они definят, как Генерация-1 – «элио-прототайпс» и «демонстрация планов». Это первая нуклеопарная плана. В нуклеопарной реакции есть генерация 2 или 3. И ванной нуклеопарной реакции может быть эволюционерная и инновативная. Вообще, эта генерация 3, 3+, 4 и 4 может пересолить к эволюционерею и инновативной реакции, как defined by International Atomic Energy Agency. Мы делаем эволюционерную реакцию. Это реактор, который передаёт реакторами, в котором маленькие изменения в дизайне, просто эволюционерные изменения. Несколько новых технологий, которые они используют, за то, что они называют «высые реакторами». И потом, реактор, как генерация 3, как генерация 3+, как генерация 3 и 4, же на commonly known sites.שובативные реакторные дизайны, которые reactions to generation 4, в GET-от APR. И в этом случае SMRSmall and Medium-sized or modular reactors, whether it is either evolutionary or innovative. Эволюционерные, которые прототайпи were already done for the transportable units. в России и других. Это визуальные дизайнеры. И есть несколько инновативных дизайнеров, которые используют различные кулонные и различные технологии. В деталях вы можете проверить в айе-адвансных реакторных информационных системах Ares, в котором есть линк. Или вы можете просто просмотреть все эти адвансные реакторы, оба инновативные и визуальные. А также это терминология, которая зависит от времени. Что сегодня инновативное, может быть эволюционарий завтра. Что сегодня, может быть просто эволюционарий завтра и так далее. Генеральный третий более-менее как картинный систем. И эволюционарий инновативный, как лаграмжный систем. Вы всегда делаете эти реакторы, но, в любом случае, потому что различные страны и различные организации могут быть использованы более-менее. Ок. Если вы посмотрите на генеральную и интернациональную форму, они постулированы several goals, о которых они хотят, с этой генеральной реакторой. Система, экономика, безопасность и реальность, реакция, и физическая протекция. Итак, в том числе безопасности, технологически, генеральный пастолейт для генеральной энергии будет выявить необходимые эволюционарии. Так что, так же, серьезный accident, в котором большая религия радиоактивных азотопов так же, так же, будет практически выявлено. Практические выявления имеют в виду физически невозможно для каких-то эффектов, или очень low probability, очень-очень low, но это не обозначает probability, скажем, реактор, да, или просто очень low physical probabilities. Эти goals могут быть очень генеральными реакторами, и между ними можно иметь и эти, конечно, все эти реакторы для генеральной энергии могут быть инновативными по иеротерминологии, если нужно только для генеральной энергии 3+, как Гифф говорит. В общем, реакторы классифированы, как вы probablemente знаете очень хорошо. Извините, пожалуйста, мьют ваши микрофоны, приятного аппетита. В общем, как вы знаете очень хорошо, реакторы могут быть классифированы по мидераторам, кулам, филотам, попросам, и силам. Для мидератора, это может быть вода, графитам, реакторам, или для Fast Neutron System, мы не имеем мидератора, мы пытаемся avoiding any moderation в кулам, опять это может быть вода или мидераторам, ликвитами, гас-култ-реакторы, которые могут быть классифированы по аэрам, CO2, и хэллоуам, и молтен-солто, в различные времена.  Для того, чтобы длина или длина, и также, может быть, то есть, Eunitry will have an lecture later after this one. So, Jeff proposes six Yeah, sure, please. I am asking about a fuel, like, now I am just interested in the Silicite fuel, so do you have Я выиграл его, использовала его для рейтинга, но не для электричных реакторов. Почему они не используют ранюм-силиссайд, как рейтинга для рейтинга? Силиссайд? Нет, нет. Может быть мы можем задать эту вопросу для... Мы ухватили эксперт Александр Брюшков на филосекле, чтобы он мог ответить. Окей. Давайте вернемся к... Есть различные типы филосеки. Что я выиграл здесь, это, наверное, самое главное. Конечно, мы можем поговорить о рейтинге Ториума, здесь и других, но там более-менее... Я не хочу сказать экзотик, но в будущем. В будущем, считаем, что в будущем. Здесь я просто представил самые-менее типы филосеки, которые уже использовались и были использованы в реакторах. Окей, если вы посмотрите на шесть... ДЖИФ предлагает шесть концепциональных дизайнов для будущих реакторов, которые очень высокие температурные реакторы, которые приготавливаются на хеолиум, в сиромальном спектру, СФР, содиум-култвастый реактор. Окей, конечно, мы говорим чуть-чуть позже. Супер критикальный водо-култвастый реактор, который может быть в сиромальном спектру, в сиромном спектру, в сиромном спектру, или полотенцом. Это супер-кратиковый водо-култвастый реактор, это необычное, но можно работать в сиромном спектру. Мы видим гас-култвастый реактор, который уrier на высоте, это в сиромном спектру, в сиромном спектру, в сиромном спектру. и температурами, и температурами для гас-култ-фаста реактора, как и для VHTR. И для култ-фаста реактора, которые также включают лэд или лэдвис-мутеотектик, и для молотон-солд реактора. Есть несколько типов, которые могут работать на сормах, на фастах, в спектрум, и на северных концептах. Это просто сравнивает с нейтронным спектром, кулон и температурами, и также требует... Какой-то филосайкал, открытый филосайкал. Классный филосайкал means all nuclear materials are redeveloped and everything is closed in... so the fuel goes either to the thermal reactors or come back to the original reactor and closing fuel cells means you don't have the waste. Most of the concepts are closed except for two, which can work in a thermal spectrum, which are not closed. This plot shows more or less this sixth concept. Maybe I believe you already know this and you know the differences between those systems. Let's say for the sodium cool, I don't know if I have this comparison. Maybe I will go now a little bit to comparison for the coolants. What are the key physical properties we expect from coolant to be considered as a reactor coolant? So melting temperature, it should be, let's say, depends on how the reactor cools down temperature for fuel handling. If it's frozen, it's one thing. Of course, it's better to have it... Lower melting temperature is better, like for water, for example. Бои... Бои-поинт, и ликви-твертая температура. Это тоже очень важно, потому что мы хотим убить бои-поинт. Мы не хотим, чтобы кулант убить. Иногда это невозможно. Для воды, для этого, чтобы увеличить эту бои-поинт, нужно применять очень высокую температуру, как 17 мегапаскаль, или даже больше. И для термопроектировки, хит-капасити, лямбдевича, термопроектировки, высокая температура, и, конечно, высокая термопроектировка, это лучше. У нас также нужно стабильность кулана, поэтому это должно быть стабильным. Для этого, пио-материал, пио-хемикамико-элементы предупредимы. Денсистия кулана будут влиять на пумпинг, пумпинг, и другие параметры, как сейсмей-бехавр. Такая денсистия, как для воды, иногда это beneficие, иногда это не beneficие. Очень важная цена, которую мы должны предупредить, это интеракция кулана с реактором, с стилами. Если оно решает коррожение мастерансфера, то это очень важно. Кемиклая реактивность с сараудованием филлюиз, как сейса, вода, органические продукты и так далее, это очень важно. Окей. И я буду... There are also several important key physical properties, which I would highlight the transparency of opacity. For the transparent, like water or gas, it is easy in service inspection, but for non-transparent it is very complicated. There are any other several others. Again, I want to show the availability of this material in nature. For example, water we have, a lot of water to do it and we have unlimited resources of water. But when we go to the vis mode, we don't know it's maybe not that many in nature and also cost is the last but not least parameter. It's not physical actually, property cost and availability in nature, but this is important properties of the coolant. So again, for the fast reactor coolants, we want first of all not to be not to moderate, so water is excluded in this case and other materials have to be used and also it could lead to if you have high absorption, relatively high absorption coefficient of neutrons, you will have void reactivity effect, means when you remove the coolant or for example when it boils and it's called void, void is means just coolant is removed, it's not actually void of course, but then you have positive reactivity effect which can affect the safety of the reactor. Let's compare the like quickly the coolant or more physical properties here presented for the all six generating system. So I would like to attract your melting point is important boiling point, let's say for water it's normally 100 on the degree C, but under high pressure which is 17 MPa, the boiling point for water is 350, it's still too low and then the reactor vessel under high pressure which is potentially has could make a lot of destructive work if you have a leakage even or breakout of the vessel, it could be potentially huge mechanical work let's say physically sane or it destruct your work in principle to destroy the environment and the reactor and still it's only 350 which also for the coolant with this the efficiency total electrical efficiency of the plant is much lower maximum you can reach maybe 30, 32, 33% of efficiency so two sorts of energy you have to lose to the nature if we talk about the sodium which higher and let and let this move even more high which is very beneficial for the let so we don't expect any boiling in case of let and let this move coolant for example for helium and other things it's boiling point is already gathered stays from this very low temperatures so we have to use the pressurized coolant in this case and for the several this is one of the examples of the molten salt it's about 1700 degrees Celsius which is also ok relatively high boiling point and we don't there is no concern about this the density compared to water ok sodium is nearly slightly less density than water however let and let this move higher and heavier than water helium is also lighter than water and get essentially is open very very light but under high pressure we go for 20 mega Pascal for helium it can reach like 8 kg per cubic meter which is ok and molten salts are very dense so means you need a lot of power for pumping of this reactor so and another parameter properties physical properties is heat capacity and here specific heat capacity per kilogram you see that water is the best the best coolant so higher heat capacity less coolant you need to remove the heat from the reactor ok very simple in this case water is the best of course and also helium is good if you take by kilogram but what is also important this volumetric heat capacity means how much volume of the coolant you need to remove this not kilogram because at different density how much volume of this and then it defines your velocity of the coolant in the reactor so for water is also very high and is again the best heat capacity while for this by the comparit like you see if you have specific heat capacity for lead it's 10 times less than sodium but if you compare with volumetric heat capacity it's better than sodium in this case so you need less velocity to remove heat from the reactor with lead or advisement than with sodium but still you need more so water is better in this case thermal conductivity is a very important factor which is so here sodium is the best and it means that all temperatures so the temperatures of the cladding of your pin of all velocity temperatures will be lower and absolute temperatures and all maximum temperatures but also the gradients temperature gradients will be much lower in this case sodium is the best but lead and advisement also have very good thermal conductivity in case of molten salt if you take this conductivity it's very low however for the molten salt reactor also it's not important because at least in this design where this coolant is also the fuel so you don't need to transfer the heat from coolant to fuel because they are already the same thing so you don't need this and then this thermal conductivity does not play big role unless you want to remove also this heat from the coolant sooner or later in heat exchanger then it could be a problem and then to reach this air also kinematic viscosity is important factor because it shows how much delta P pressure you need to pump this coolant through your system this is quickly explained traditional actually sodium cooled fast reactors have a long history and the first reactor that generated electricity and I believe you know which reactor and when generated first electricity EBR1 EBR1 it was sodium potassium cool reactor demonstrated reactor only yes but actually that increases several kilowatts finally of the power but this was to demonstrate production of electricity and that was sodium and EBR means experimental breeder reactor so the breathing possibility already considered on the first ever reactor that generated electricity so and that was sodium potassium or alloy what was the coolant there so sodium cooled fast reactor have a long history about 500 reactor years in operation and it's mature technology we can consider here mostly the pool type reactor when you have this big pool of sodium here with a small relatively small core inside and but this is nice design and then you have ok just before I forget because sodium reacts very aggressively with water so you want to intermediate heat exchanger to avoid direct contact of the radioactive sodium in the primary circuit with water of the secondary then we have to add the intermediate exchanger and this heat exchanger is located in the reactor pool outside the reactor vessel but this is like low power low pressure volume which is more or less ambient pressure at least on the top of this reactor however this design doesn't work for the seismic areas like in Japan so in this case you also can consider loop type reactor where you have separate intermediate heat exchanger somewhere outside so there are two just wanted to say common types of the sodium called faster reactors this slide shows this history of this sodium SFRs which I say it's mature technology so we had several reactors in France experimental Saudi reactors and again experimental phoenix super phoenix was the first industrial reactor that it works very on in operation for almost 10 years it was never reloaded and was shut down in the end of last century mainly for the political reasons I believe Germany was excuse me running the experimental KNK reactor and projected SNR 300 that was also stopped in operation in Soviet Union I mean Russia Kazakhstan we had several reactors BOR-60 then BOR-350 in Kazakhstan BAN-600 and BAN-800 which I operate now in near Ekaterinburg and one two SFRs under design and construction BAN-12 is under design and MBR experimental reactor is under construction will replace BOR-60 reactor Japan developed and running the Joyo reactor which is now shut down but awaiting the license for restart it's a small experimental reactor and Japan built Monju reactor which was only working like half a year it was 260 megawatt electric but after sodium leakage accident in the same year it started and under decommissioning now in the USA as you remember we have this EBR-1 and then several other reactor in operations last was FFTF 400 megawatt which was shut down in 1992 there was a project and now it still exists VTR it's a new design and several other actually for the sodium Natrium for example we talk about this later but okay it's under design let's say not under construction in India FFTR operates since 1955 it's small experimental reactor and PFBAR then you see this commission in 2021 we also expect this reactor to be commissioning every year but unfortunately it's postponed may be good because they conduct very nice lot of tests to make sure that reactor operation is safe, there are no sodium leakage and so forth India also develops several other reactors in China already more than 10 years in operation it's CFR China experimental fast reactor small reactor 200 megawatt electric but China now builds two CFR600 reactors which is under construction and expected in few years to be built two exactly not very exactly the same reactor 600 megawatt and other reactors under design so I think I should maybe faster to complete this historical overview so this slide shows pictures of the reactors which are in operation in several countries again it's been six congress in Russia and been at congress recently since 2015 also in Russia FBTR in India, CFR in China PFBAR it's under commissioning in India expected again next year probably and that is like five main reactors under operation in the world now or expected to be starting operation in the world there are several new innovative design which can be classified as generation 4 it's been 12 hangar in Russia CFR600 in China it's this is difficult to identify is it generation 3 plus or generation 4 but it's under construction and CFR1000 in China that will be generation 4 reactor there was a project of European CFR European sodium cool fast reactor which was 1500 megawatt electric but now the power is lower and then it's like hypothetical reactor I would say there are several other but they are not really not say they are paper reactor but they develop an a postponement waiting for the political decisions and so on just to show you the evolution of the reactors and what is make its existing fleet evolutionary innovative let's say BN600 operates since 1985 in Yekaterinburg in Russia when we make when Russia made a new reactor BN800 what is similar it's similar exactly the same very similar a sodium the reactor vessel and sodium circuits basic safety systems are also the same information control systems including the reactor monitoring system are the same what is new for BN800 it has additional most important passive safety system so called hydraulic suspended control rows so when you have nominal flow control row is out of the core what when flow becomes lower and flow row automatically inserted in the core so the reactor shutdown is a new but only one passive shutdown system and of course it has numerous other improvement but still we consider Russia considers this BN800 as a generation 3 plus reactor not generation 4 it's not enough safety system but when Russia now is designed BN1200 this is already industrial side big power reactor and what is innovative this is first of all is a proven technology based on the experience of the both previous BN600 and 800 reactors however there are several additions for example they postulate that accidents that require public evacuation are practically eliminated and that is thanks to the passive shutdown system including this hydraulic suspended control rows and an additional passive high temperature accumulated control row system the reactor will be using uranium-plotium plutonium nitride fuel which is better at least considered as better and safer as compared to the mox fuel it will have is reactor core lower power density and passive decay heat removal systems and last but not least it will be competitive with other advanced nuclear power plants and with power plants that use for self fuel and of course with renewable as well this makes this design generation 4 maybe I will skip there are several cases main improvement goes to make it generation 4 it's to make sure that all severe accidents are eliminated and we can reach it using the different types of the passive shutdown system and this slide shows several shutdown systems and even in case of the core meltdown using the special dedicated core catchers we can ensure that there will no be huge or quick release of the of the radioactive material and let this move reactors were designed because sodium has very disadvantages parameter which is when sodium reacts with violently with water and even on the air sodium starts burn fire but this is not that big style like gasoline or what else but still it doesn't require any ignition so then you want to separate sodium and water and you have to implement this intermediate intermediate circuit which makes cost of the reactor much higher so if you use lead which doesn't react with water and with air violently then you can escape skip this intermediate circuit and make all the system the construction cost everything smaller and cheaper of course capacity we already discussed the beneficial properties of the lead on this case however we have a problem with lead because it's erosion and corrosion so this with lead and structural materials you have to control the oxygen level very accurately not to avoid elimination of the oxide level on the construction materials or not to make this oxide level is too big so it can be broken and it can block the flow passes also this is one disadvantage of lead and also the problem with lead it has very limited operational experience we never had this reactors for generation electricity except small experience with Russian submarines working on the lead with material tactic that is the problem but this is very promising technology and we have many numerous I would say a lot of designs of the reactors new with lead or lead with material tactic many of them one of them is already under construction is Brest OD300 in Russia but there are several other designs which are very promising LFR Mira in Belgium I am not sure it is really postponed but it is accelerated driven systems we know the people here who are working on ADS also and Amphora Shapes LFR IS to helmet reactors which is now get new investors and new plus and also Sealer 55 megawatt LFR developed in Sweden this is completed transparent to neutrons you can reach very hard neutron spectrum it is slower activity insertion chemically in air and also always the same phase already gathers optically transparent not conduct in electricity and can be applied for the very high temperature applications however it requires huge pressure because of the density of the helium and then you have to create reactor vessel with high pressure so it can be ok, the gas is non condensable also so it makes in case of loss of coolant accident could be problem and have low thermal inertia so reactor core can hit up rapidly if it force into it and also again there is no operation experience with helium at all one example of the helium reactor is GFR Allegro which is under development in Europe however it is still it is huge power reactor under development but still need to be I believe it takes more years to do molten salt reactor are very popular now because of their obvious features for example first of all natively when temperature rises molten fuel expands and then you automatically reduce the reactivity so there is no problem and also heat is released together with coolant all together interesting design however the experience with molten salt is also to be proven it's under operation so I will skip a couple of slides there is one concept which combines molten salt technology let's say traditional sodium cooled fast reactor it's a new natural reactor announced by terapower which has actually the normal SFR which is 345 megawatt electric but it's combined with storage system which is filled with molten salt which has huge heat capacity so in this case let's say when the electricity is not required reactor is working to heat up this molten salt and storage energy there and when let's again let's say in the sunny day we have solar panels which generate electricity and then the clients don't need electricity from the nuclear power plant in this case you store energy in molten salt but when night comes then you need some evening you need some electricity then you can generate electricity from stored molten salt and in this case reactor peak power can reach 500 or 600 so double actually of the nominal power of SFR this can be used for non-electrical applications and work with renewable again when you have this depending on sun so main problem with renewables of course you have wind, you have generation you have sun, you have generation and vice versa but for the nuclear power plant you won't always work on 100% of power for this if it's not required you can store it for example in this case in molten salt and this storage is allowed this reactor is announced by TeraPOW which is one of the main investors is Bill Gates and even he is very enthusiastic you see these shapes of the reactor scheme supercritical water cold reactor is also very interesting concept under development but it's not like near future I believe I just want to skip both slides because it will be explained you in other presentations and before I complete that I just want to show the challenges for innovative fast reactors also which is most of them are fast reactors fast nuclear spectrum reactors there are several challenges at present we the most of mature technologies is sodium cold fast reactors with oxide metal or nitrate fuel as well this is what we know however it seems important to develop a viable backup option such as let all this mod coolant with oxide on a tried fuel or maybe also gas coolant and with carbide fuel it was the idea which is not very popular now or molten salt cold reactors also and okay just for the sake of time just to show you the status now fast reactors in operation and under construction and decommissioning in Russia again we have these four reactors which is two of them three of them sorry in operation and beer is under construction and breath all and breath three is under construction again and in China CFR is in operation and two units of CFR 600 under construction India has sorry FBTR in operation experimental reactor and PFBAR under commissioning already Japan Mojo and Joy experimental in waiting expecting lightings again and Mojo is under decommissioning you see here almost all of them of sodium cooled reactor except breath three kind which is new this is what reactors which are real reactor which will be operating in coming years soon however if you look in the picture of the reactors under development and design in this case at least half of them are light cooled first reactors and we have also several reactors with another coolant I put it bold here we don't know which is most realistic by the way but just following the news announcement we can see which reactors have better chances to be built and deployed than others in this case you see that now the most interest is moving to the lead from sodium while sodium remain the mature main technology but lead is new under development technology in addition we have gas cooled reactors and molten salt cooled reactors and especially now we have this shift to the lower power reactors or SMRs next after me by Chariobatra so I will let him to explain the benefits and with this I'd like to thank you for your attention and ready to answer your questions please yes please but please please come here because I know we have only one microphone here that walking we want to hear the online audience as well I don't understand you spoke about a first nuclear reactor and I remember that F1 was the first reactor or you include industrial reactor we talk about the reactors that generated electricity okay there are many other experimental reactors of course also and 3 years later in Obnisk we had this industrial nuclear power plant that is already 5 megawatt electric in case of the EBR1 it was only like just to demonstrate few bulbs lamps simply it was I believe it was 3 or 5 kilowatt finally the total electric power but that was the first nuclear reactor that generated electricity please come here to ask a question and also we I know how we do it but thank you for your presentation I have a question about the best practice and experimental of the using these generation reactors as you present about the development of technology only the SFR is the only technology that have experimental data but SFR in compare with the PWR have many disadvantages also but we say that it's a generation for reactors and other design all of the other design are the showcase for a nuclear development for example I participate from 2 years ago in a new generation reactors and all of the presentation is about the benefits all of benefits but nobody talk about the challenges we have many challenges so there isn't any experimental data about these designs it's a big challenges for development and also you say that most of the designs concentrate on a LEADFAST reactor but also we don't know about the phenomena that occurred in the future for LEADFAST reactor also so I want to ask you about we need to nuclear power plant for an earlier replacement with the generation 4 past generation reactors so I want to know about your opinion about which of designs really go to the toward the best replacement with the PWRs thank you so much ok thank you thank you for your question and rising this important issue also ok I don't agree that we don't have a lot of experience for the LEAD we have now a lot of experiments also for example we don't have experience in the real reactor operation except these submarines which is very limited and actually not available also to for general but however the LEAD was chosen because of the disadvantages of sodiums obviously it's violent chemical reaction with water and can happens and also in case of monju it was a leakage of sodium not many by the way but because of fire and frankly the main problem with leakage of the sodium in monju was because it was JNC was trying to hide this accident from the public and then they lost public support and acceptance and that was because actually such kind of leakage happens with sodium and they are not very dangerous unless you get direct contact with water, with air it's a fire but it's a small fire it's very small fire like which can be easily managed but the problem is that it was a leakage they didn't know and they tried to hide that was a problem we thought we have million experiments also with LEAD also a lot of experiments now and we don't expect the problem with LEAD which is and this is much easier of course and how to replace and why the generation 4 of course I agree with you with the gas for example helium or supercritical water is also high pressure also and also but with traditional PF bar you have one problem it's high pressure reactor and it's potentially has or even with new and new safety measures with everything potentially physically can be dangerous can lead to that dangerous accident in case of several in this case that why this ambient pressure reactors like sodium and lead for example I consider it as generation 4 if I may add something Vladimir to that what you said wait a moment wait a moment let's give a discussion sorry for example for PWR for a thermohydraulic we have more than 140 experimental test data about just for thermohydraulic we have a various design of the generation 4 generation 4 reactors but lack of the experimental it's very big challenges with this variety and as a researcher and nuclear engineering when anyone ask about the future of the generation 4 it's very big issue we need to concentrate more about the technologies and the best technologies for replacement thank you thank you for your comment now Mr. Batra please I was just adding to that I think the prime reason to move to generation 4 is actually outlined in the 4 goals that generation 4 represents which are safety, sustainability, economics and proliferation resistance so if we talk about these 4 goals first let's talk about sustainability we have to see how we can maintain the current fuel cycle we can assume that the current uranium resources are enough but they might not be enough if you want to continue this cycle for a longer time and in terms of safety also one of the key points that Vladimir mentioned is the most of systems are pressurized the pressurized water reactor or boiling water reactor and they itself create a lot of complications in terms of safety so when we depressurize the system it eventually leads to a lot of it eventually eliminates a lot of accidents in the pressurized system now talking specifically on the experimental facility what I think and what I believe in is that the nuclear industry has a very strong regulatory process so if the regulation regulatory process, if the reactor design goes through the regulatory process that means there has been enough evidence that the reactor will operate safely and will not cause any harm to the ambience and with this what I feel is that if there is not enough either physics proof or enough experimental proof the reactor will not be licensed and that we can for sure rely on nuclear industry this has never happened before this is not gonna happen later as well now specifically issues of safety which comes with sodium like sodium fire for me I believe it's not a very big issue because the sodium fire is manageable and these are engineering solutions that we can have for that so in case we have an engineering solution we can move ahead if we do not believe in engineering what's gonna happen is that we had boilers which were blasting every day and now we have boilers in our homes we just rarely or they just never blast because the engineering solutions are there which keep them safe so the whole idea what I feel here is that to move towards a technology which has more sustainability goals and more safety goals but the process takes time and for that I think there are enough experimentation that is happening the industry has enough regulatory process that makes sure this is gonna happen and then the important thing is economics so if the reactors cannot compete on cost with other sources of energy this is the death of nuclear so we have to make sure the economics is good and for that I feel that the generation 4 reactors would actually work on improving the economics of the reactor that's all from us thank you we can continue can you hear me can you everybody we can continue this just quick introduction very small introduction all details we will receive later in our lectures on different types of reactors and you can ask questions also any other questions here it was shown that BN600 or 800 any of them has like lower power density and my question is how much lower it is and is it lower than the regular PW reactor I mean we know that ACFR which is much more higher power density than PWs why was it said that it is lower lower because lower traditionally the first reactors like BN600 for example they had much higher power density than water reactors and PFWR and the core was very small like 1 meter and several 3 meters diameter and that was considered as a benefit but then it becomes theoretically yes you want to have a release you have smaller core and release more energy in the smaller core yes but from the safety point it was to now that it would be better to have lower density so means bigger core with the same power and that was a lower power density for BN200 it will be even more lower this was the safety reason also but it's still higher than PPPWR yes this is intentional because it was considered as a benefit from the very beginning but then it turned out that it could be why should we make all power in the very small ok we can afford a little bit more because it doesn't require more structural materials it's still the reactor vessel is the same size so any other questions from the online audience if you want to raise your hand please no then I think we should go because we are already ahead like half an hour loss because you take very long coffee break guys now I'd like to ask Mr. Chirayobatra to deliver to start his presentation on small and medium sized or modular reactors Hello everybody can you see my presentation? Right?


All right, everybody welcome back it is still Tuesday afternoon at 340 and we are here with Damien Leonard and Damien is one of our staff attorneys and he's going to take us through a strike all amendment on age 93 age 93 is the way it was commonly called the homeless bill of rights bill that we. I think we passed it out of our committee two years ago and then it got caught up in the coven times in terms of it being just we didn't have a chance to get it any further than out of committee, and so this is. A rewritten version of that at the time we had a different attorney working with us and he had some pretty strong views on what was what was right about the bill and what might have been problematic about the bill. So representative Kalaki and represent trying to work with Damien this fall to try to address some of the issues that were in the bill so I just wanted to hear from Damien and then we'll hear from. Representative Kalaki and try out about status of the bill and Damien if you could do like I guess I do your thing really. Great, thank you for the record Damien Leonard legislative council. Mr chair would it make most sense for me to walk through the streamlined. Bill amendment that representative triano representative clackie and I came up with this fall or you want me to turn back to the original bill. Yeah, just yeah let me yeah that's fine that's great. Okay. Okay, go ahead and share my screen here. Oh, great. So, this would be it's a proposed committee strike all amendment. Obviously this is the first time the committee seeing it so this is just for the committee's consideration. It is not the proposal of the committee at this time. The findings here are the same as what is in the underlying bill those weren't touched. I'm not going to spend time on them today unless the committee would like to go over them. But it is something that you may want to review.  And make sure there's nothing that you don't want to either change or add or remove. This brings us to section two which is the homeless bill of rights which is where most of the work and this draft has occurred. What representatives Calachi and triano and myself identified based on my former colleagues testimony. And some of his observations are just that there are some portions of the homeless bill of rights here that are duplicative of the protections that are added elsewhere in the law and some of that duplication can contribute to a lack of clarity and there were also just some words in here that we've tweaked to try to improve the clarity of the law so I'll walk through it with you and then at the end of this section I'll pause for questions. And then I'll move quickly through the remainder of the bill. So this provides that in addition to any other rights or protections provided under state and federal law. An individual shall have the right and the first is to use and move freely in public places including public sidewalks parks transportation and buildings. In the same manner as any other individual and without discrimination on the basis of an individual's housing status. So it's important to note here that the outset in subsection a we've said in addition to any other protections provided under state and federal law so this includes state and federal anti discrimination laws the state's public accommodations law and so forth. So, all of these we're talking about our additional protections. One of the questions that comes up and this this subset subdivision likely has some overlap with our public accommodations law, but for example, is a public sidewalk really a place a public accommodation I think, arguably the answer is no. And so the idea here is to capture anything that's not covered by our public accommodations law and saying that any individual has the right to move freely there without discrimination on the basis of their housing status. There is no treatment by all state and municipal agencies without discrimination on the basis of the individual's housing status. Again, this overlaps with other laws, but there are areas where there are potential gaps in those laws. And the idea here is this is to fill in those gaps and say you can't to strip discriminate if you're a public agency on the basis of someone's housing status. This is to emergency medical care free from discrimination based on the individual's housing status. Again, individuals do have a right to emergency medical care. And what this is just saying is that to the extent that there's any question within those rights to emergency medical care that care should be provided free from discrimination on the basis of housing status. And therefore, the right to vote register to vote and receive documentation necessary to prove identity for voting without discrimination due to the individual's housing status. There were initially some questions, as we were going over this, about whether this lines up with our current voting laws in the state, particularly in light of the push to provide absentee voting in recent years. With mail in ballots that are mailed out to people. But in looking at the Secretary of State's guidance to local officials. Already the Secretary of State is putting out guidance that individuals who are homeless or transient or don't have a permanent address. Or are registering using a PO box because they don't have a permanent physical mailing address shouldn't be discriminated against on that basis so this is consistent with that. And sort of reiterates that point and calls out in really clear language that isn't necessarily elsewhere in statute that you have this right to vote without discrimination based on your housing status. And then finally the last piece here is to a reasonable expectation of privacy in the individual's personal property without discrimination based on their housing status. And what this gets at is really an issue of freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. So Vermont as some of you may already know already has a higher level of protection in our state constitution against unreasonable searches and seizures by law enforcement. What this is calling out and is specifically focused on is in other parts of the country in cases testing this with respect to homeless encampments or homeless individuals. What I mean are some judges not all ruling that an individual for example living in a tent or another temporary shelter doesn't have the same expectation of privacy as an individual living in a physical house. And this is saying the legislature here is is coming out very clearly and saying that you have that reasonable expectation of privacy without any discrimination based on your housing status. And this complements the heightened protections that we have under our state constitution, although those protections haven't been tested with respect to homeless individuals. So this is really complimenting that. What you'll have noticed here is that this section got a lot shorter, and we've taken out areas where it was clearly duplicative of protections were adding for public benefits, employment and public accommodations which are all covered in the next several sections. The next subsection here subsection be is is clarifying that notwithstanding any provision of law or of a municipal charter to the contrary. No individual shall be subject to civil or criminal sanctions for soliciting sharing accepting or offering food drink money, or other donations in a public place. So this is a clarification of language from an early the earlier version of the bill which talked about being impacted by a law that targets homeless individuals. All of potential problems with that language one is the impact could be positive. So prohibiting any impact, or any law targeting an individual who is unhoused would arguably also prohibit laws that for example make emergency housing available, provide for other services or access to services on the basis of housing status. And so what this is saying is that you can't have a law that creates civil or criminal sanctions for doing things like soliciting sharing or accepting or offering food or drink or money. And it really is aimed at provisions in municipal charters dating back to the early 20th century that permit laws targeting vagrants, the poor farms. There are there are any number of them if you go through the charters in the state which allow the particular select board or city council to pass provisions that penalize people for being unhoused, or for being lacking economic means, etc. And so this is aimed at basically saying you can't have that kind of law, even if it's still on the books because your charter hasn't been updated. Subsection C is a continuation of that. And this is saying that no law, rule or ordinance shall adversely impact or penalize an individual based on their housing status, the provision of supports or services to the individual based on their housing status, or the individual engaging in harmless activities that are associated with homelessness. So the, a lot of this is clarifying here. We, I think my colleague did raise concerns about the language harmless activities that are associated with homelessness. It's not the most precise language. It does leave it open to a judge to determine what a harmless activity is. It's also something that I think it gives. It does give guidance, and we struggled to come up with an alternative way of phrasing that that would be adequately broad and also more clear. And so this gives guidance and discretion to a judge to say without listing specific activities so that a judge could say, yes, this is protected this is a harmless activity associated with homelessness. And so that that was one thing that didn't change from the underlying law here but what we've done here at the top if you can see my cursor in the area I'm highlighting is where we're saying you can't adversely impact or penalize an individual based on these things, you could provide targeted supports to an individual however based on their housing status, and you can also target harmful activities that may or may not be associated with homelessness so this doesn't prohibit, you know, criminal sanctions for, you know, engaging in activity that's prohibited by law. Um, so what we've added here. And what we've done here is we've clarified the underlying bills set a person aggrieved by a violation may bring an action in superior court for appropriate relief, including injunctive relief and actual damages. As well as costs and attorney's fees, and we've kept that language here, but what we've added in subdivision to is that the relief provided pursuant to this section shall be in addition to the relief provided under other provisions of law. The reason for this is because the public accommodations law and the employment discrimination law actually provide somewhat better relief if you go to court, and they also provide other avenues for relief, such as a lawsuit through the attorney general's office. And one of the concerns that we had here was that this could be seen as, you know, an either or a proposition. So we're making it very clear that this is in addition to some other words you have a violation of the public accommodations law but you also arguably have a violation of the homeless bill of rights. You have the right to bring a lawsuit under both laws and seek relief under both laws for those violations, instead of being told, you know, only parts one and two of your three part complaint are covered by your, your lawsuit under the public accommodations law. So those are the changes in that section. I'm going to stop the share for a minute and just see if there are questions. Thank you. I do have questions and I was just going to try to go back. I have one on it just came to my mind and could just be me drawing a connection that doesn't exist but looking at the line 11 on page to the emergency medical care, free from discrimination based on individuals housing status. I know in my community, we can join our rescue squad with a $65 per household that allows us not to have a bill if an ambulance has to come to our home. It doesn't mean that an ambulance wouldn't come to where someone was in need necessarily but is that considered discrimination. I don't receive a bill but someone who was maybe out on the sidewalk in front of my home would for the same service. So, I think, to the extent that the individual who doesn't have a permanent house, like you do could also register with the emergency medical service and get the same freedom from a bill. I don't treat it any different because they don't have a physical address, or a physical permanent home. But they're, they're still entitled to pay that that fee and receive emergency care discrimination, I think that you would be able to say that that's free from discrimination. I think if it's limited only to people who have a house. I think that there's a potential argument. And I don't think I can be the one to settle the argument but I think there is a potential argument that that's discrimination based on housing status, because an individual who's not housed, but lives in that that district is being treated differently. So I think that would be the question but I think you could potentially find ways to modify that policy to if there were concerns that it was discriminatory I know this was my understanding of this is that it was aimed particularly at emergency rooms, but I could see that if it's prohibitively expensive to even get to the emergency room. Then that could be a form of unequal treatment there based on housing status. And it is connected to address it's mailed out to everybody and it's anyone within your household and address so it's very much limited to householders. So it would, and I had another I don't want to belabor saying that there's probably other questions, it's just something to flag, and the other that I would be curious about is the voting, because there's a resident requirement. It's one in our community and it's one that I separate resident from citizen when when we just did some votes this year of allowing people who are residents but not necessarily citizens to vote. But it does require that you are a resident and so I am a little confused. And we're talking about local elections as opposed to Europe. You're a resident of the United States that would apply, potentially in our mind to a different type of ability to vote, but how do you define a resident without the address and I know that's kind of the whole point of all of this but it does just again put up a flag for me of how would we do this. Yeah, so I am going to the Secretary of State right here. I'm on their website right now and I'm just looking for. There we go. Who is a resident for voting purposes. A Vermont election law defines a resident and I'm reading directly from the Secretary of State's website. As a person who has domiciled in the town as evidenced by an intent to maintain a principal dwelling place in the town indefinitely, and to return return there if temporarily absent, coupled with an act or acts consistent with that intent. So that's 17 vs a 21 22 be the law, and then the Secretary of State's website goes on to say the law creates a subjective standards. This means that it is the voters intent and actions that determine residency, not how many nights a year the voter sleeps in the town. A voter who has more than one home must decide on their principal dwelling place. So that says Vermont election law allows a person to repaint registered in the last town in which they resided. If they are in the military in a nursing home, etc. And then going down. Just see here. You may register to vote if I'm homeless. If you are homeless, you may register to vote in the town and in the district within a town that includes the place that you consider your principal dwelling place. The definition of residency applies in the same way to someone who is homeless, as it does to persons who own or rent their principal dwelling place. So what really comes down to for the individual who is homeless is what is the place that they consider their principal dwelling. I think one of the potential issues here. This is just from the way this tripped us up as we were trying to work through it this fall is making sure that this is clear and known to town clerks and election officials across the state. And also that there's education for individuals who are homeless and may say, well, I don't have a, you know, traditional dwelling. So, where am I supposed to register so there may be an education issue here. But the Secretary of State's interpretation is that it's, it's where the place that you consider your principal dwelling is, whether that is an actual traditional house or apartment or if that is a place where you can't spend the night. Or, or otherwise, you know, intend to remain and keep as your, your principal location for dwelling. Thank you very much. Representative hangover walls. I just wanted to corroborate what representative Murphy was talking about the ambulances the emergency medical people who would come to your home. The subscription service really is very specific, even if it's a guest in your home, they do not fall under that subscription fee and would have to pay the cost of an ambulance. So it is definitely address based. Yeah, so this is something where the committee may want to take testimony from emergency medical service providers. And it, you know, I think there are some questions here about whether the language as it is right now is potentially having impacts that are not intended by the committee and so that's really a policy question for you. And it may be helpful to get some testimony from the ambulance services, understand how they deal with individuals who don't, you know, who are homeless, and don't have a physical address to register for purposes of a subscription service. Again, depending on the committee's intent. The language here could be clarified, could be narrowed, or it could be left as it is. So, just some, some options to consider for the committee. Thank you. I need a couple of clarifications. And the first one is very much related to representative Murphy's question about voting. My impression that you needed to have an address to be on the checklist. And I think it can be general delivery, for example, it can be pretty non specific. So I'm just wondering, can you say, you know, the campground in the North 40. I mean, I just don't know how big that can be, if that's an issue. You know, I, I don't know the answer to that question. It might be helpful to have someone from the elections division at the Secretary of State's office to come in and talk about how that's handled and, and, and I think that would probably be the most helpful to understand what I can speak to is just the general guidance and, and FAQ answers that are on the Secretary of State's website and the, the parsing that we did with the statute this fall trying to make sure that we didn't need a broader change to the election law, which was our initial concern as we were looking at that. Okay, the other point I want to make a clarification on is making making sure that they understand that basically this protects pen handling that I mean this municipality cannot pass an ordinance that bans pen handling. I think not in a, you know, respectful manner. I think that that would be a reasonable conclusion to draw from that language that says you can't penalize harmless activities that are associated with homelessness. There, there may be an argument however that you could for example, restrict locations. For example, you know, you could say, I'm trying to think of how, how you would phrase this reasonably but if for example there's a reason why engaging in a specific activity in certain locations is dangerous and could cause harm. You could say for example in this location, it's not appropriate but you know 20 feet away from that or something like that you, you could, you know, kind of limit it but again it's, I'm worried about speculating here, because this this could be pretty case by case but I think the question is going to be, is it a harmless activity, and if there's potential harm, resulting from the activity in a specific location then I think you've got an argument that you could pass a restriction, but not an across the board ban. If the activity is harmless when when done in a safe way. Okay, thank you and thank you and that's what I thought we were doing. Thank you. Yep. I didn't mean to your point here. One of the, one of the questions about discrimination laws that are especially with language like this is that it is hard to say one way or the other. Whether or not this is the right choice that it has to be interpreted by the courts with with this under a specific case is that kind of your, it's not a doctrine it's just the way that the law in this case works is that right. I think a lot of times with discriminant discrimination laws or anti discrimination laws. You know, there, there's a balance between drafting a law that's clear enough that it gives guidance on what you can and can't do without getting overly specific. And what ends up happening is these cases are so fact specific that it's hard to think of all of the facts and to address all of the what ifs. You know that there may be some argument to say that, you know, reasonable regulations related to, you know, this, this section isn't intended to prevent municipalities from adopting reasonable regulations related to health and safety that are universally applicable, but it is intended to prevent you from adopting something that says panhandling period is prohibited across the board or, you know, homeless encampments soliciting food. These things are prohibited across the board, but you could for example say you can't obstruct traffic. Well, you know soliciting donations, and that could apply to people soliciting charitable donations as well as people, you know soliciting assistance, if they're homeless so something like that where it's it's more targeted at public health and safety because there could be a danger if you're doing it in, in the right of way of a street. And I'm just trying to think of something where there's a clear health and safety issue. But I think as you get into this with these, even with these sort of generally applicable laws there are sometimes arguments that there's a disparate impact, and the law was written generally but it's intended to impact a particular group. And that is really something that judges and juries need to evaluate, because the facts are so important in those cases. So I think that's lacking that by wrong. Thank you chair and thank you Damian for this work. Just two things where we've gone so far. One is with Tommy, it is about a public space that is that what you brought up your point about panhandling and so later on the bill will see about public accommodation. And that we include the homelessness protected class so I think we'll look at that there as well the same question you brought up Tommy. And then the second thing about aligning the rights for people without homes to vote and aligning it with the Secretary of State. Representative Bluming and I went to the Sears encampment in Burlington and spend a morning talking to people. And one particular person we spoke to had lived there for 14 months. And it built a home there and they're, you know, and so seems to me that that person could rightfully claim that that was his home and that he should have the same right to vote. You know, and, and, and I think we also heard about a man who lives by the some railroad tracks for five years in testimony in a committee. So it seems to me in this way the Secretary of State, I've said it that that person could could actually demonstrate that that that's where they have lived for the last five years and that's the home. So we're, you know, we're just all we were just trying to align it and simplify it. So those are my two points for now. So my question is kind of clarifying what you're, David, what you mentioned about blocking traffic. I mean, does that pertain to pedestrian traffic automotive traffic or both traffics. Yeah. So, this is, again, this is how you need to have it be a reasonable. You know, it. You can have reasonable municipal ordinances. That are, you know, aimed at, for example, you know, preventing, you know, public health and safety issues such that that might occur from like an obstruction and in vehicular traffic on certain roads.  And sometimes you have to walk to get to your car and sometimes like this morning the sidewalks aren't allowed and you've got to get your kid to school. And there, there are issues like that that we engage in here in Vermont. On the other hand, you could see how potentially someone occupying the lane and obstructing traffic on a main road could could cause risks both to drivers and themselves or preventing someone from getting across the street when they're trying to cross in a crosswalk something like that. So I think that the challenge with these is how do you craft it in a way that's not discriminatory. You know, so you're not targeting. And the goal here is, is not to be targeting something like panhandling it's to be targeting something that's not a safe. It's an activity and what this bill does is it says you can't, you can't penalize it because it's an activity associated with homelessness, but you could prohibit something that is generally unsafe.  So, but there, there are instances where, you know, you can. So, another instance that I could think of just drawing on on experience with places I used to live is when I lived in the Southwest during fire season they would prohibit open fires outdoors because of the risk of wildfire in certain areas. So that that could be another generally applicable public health and safety thing. And it would, it would impact both housed and homeless individuals. What you couldn't say is that homeless individuals cannot have a fire outdoors. So that's, that's the difference here. There are a number of things, and you can't have like an across the board provision that's targeted at at homeless individuals or an activity that's specifically associated with homelessness. So having a fire outdoors in an area that's fire prone, that's a potentially generally applicable sort of public health and safety thing that may impact some homeless individuals who live in that area, but it would also impact others who use the area. The way not good hairs on my definitions but like what about like unwanted fee for service and we should wash it. That's a great question. I'm not sure that it's a good question. I think that in the interest of time, let's not answer. Yeah. So where are we on the bill. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Where are we on the bill before I let representative try to ask you another question. So where we are on the bill is we're going to fast forward through the next several sections because there's no change. And we're going to highlight just one more section that was added to cover something that was missing from the original bill. So it's the point page. It's. We are on page three of 11 we're going to skip up to page 10. And highlight one section that was added. So we're going to we're going to skip seven pages and get to the end of the bill from this point. Yes, representative. Am I on the right bill. Oh, I'm, I apologize. I'm on the wrong bill. I'm not really going to ask a question. That's called legislative legislating at 418. No, it's not. You have so we did have definitions of housing status added throughout these other sections and so section be here right at the very end is added. This is the section you're talking about.  There we go. And so what we're doing is this is 33 vsa one oh one this wasn't in the underlying bill. But it relates to the policy of the state of Vermont with respect to public assistance and benefits. And this we're basically saying assistance and benefits shall be administered promptly without restriction or discrimination on account of race, religion, political affiliation, housing status or place of residence within the state. And so we're adding housing status and the definition that we've used throughout the bill. And we've changed the effect of date. You scroll your screen to the end there. We're seeing it for page one here. Oh, whoa, I'm sorry. That was very strange. So I Sorry, I, I literally have this. I have it open on two different screens and I was scrolling on the other screen and wondering why you couldn't see what I saw. So, yep, what we're adding here is housing status here. So we've added housing status to the protected classes for purposes of public benefits. And then we're adding the definition of housing status that we've used throughout. And then on a page or line 17 we've updated the effective date to this July one. Yep. So that's it. So I think the questions for the committee really at this point are additional witnesses you may want to hear on some of these issues. The takeaway from our earlier discussion is that a lot of these things that we can think of are pretty fact specific. And in some cases it would actually really take the look at the individual ordinance to really make a determination on, is this targeting someone on the basis of their housing status, or is it a generally applicable. That sort of traditional ordinance that's aimed at protecting health and safety or something like that. And the right now the way the bill is written. It, it says that you can't adversely impact or penalize someone based on their housing status, and a, a what's called a harmless activity that's associated with homelessness. The, the question then would become for under the current language is, what is a non harmless activity. And that would probably have to be determined on a case by case basis. And that for an entity trying to regulate under this, what you're getting at is really the question of, are we targeting a something that's potentially a harmful activity, or a harmless activity and are we specifically targeting something that's associated with homelessness. We are targeting something that's associated with homelessness we're immediately on to a higher level of having to say, now we have to make sure that this isn't a harmless activity. If we're targeting something that's sort of a general activity. The only question really becomes, is this a sort of getting out homelessness homelessness or homeless individuals without saying it. You know so is it sort of a front for our real intent which is to target something that the homeless population in our community engages in, but we're saying it's generally applicable and that's, that's similar to what you engaging with any other discrimination law, we don't have a generally applicable rule in the workplace for example, but it's really the only people that impacts negatively are pregnant women, or our individuals with a disability, or individuals with a specific religious practice. Even though we've worded it generally. So that that's the same sort of considerations that we'd have here without getting into the specifics of each regulation that we can imagine. I see a question from or a comment from representative. Thank you chair students a few things that come to mind on the panhandling piece. I think the case could be made for discrimination if you allow fire departments and rescue squads to stand in the middle of the road and solicit donations, whereas you may not be a may not allow homeless person to do the same thing. The other side of that is that there is actually a section in the disorderly conduct statute that is for blocking vehicular traffic. So, both could be liable for criminal offense I suppose. But you know those are my thoughts on that and I think that what you're saying Damian is accurate I think case by case and we did talk about malls for instance whereas who has the authority to control behavior. Specifically to homeless people within a mall does a shop owner and I think Luke's opinion was that I've had to be the owner of the mall that would have to intervene and not a shop owner who rents. That was another discussion I remember having. So, you know the mall in general is going to come under the public accommodation statute. So by adding protection on the basis of housing status what you're doing is protecting against an individual being excluded simply because they're homeless. So they could be, you know, excluded from that space for the same reason that any of us could be if for example, we caused a disturbance or damaged property or something like that or we're harassing individuals who work at the mall. So those those are non discriminatory reasons to exclude someone versus simply saying, I know that individual is homeless. I'm going to exclude them on that basis, simply because they're homeless. That's, that's sort of the issue with the mall, and then within the mall itself, you know the mall owner or the person who operates it is the property owner so they would be the person who would seek, you know, to exclude someone. That said, I would guess that under their lease, most of the store owners have the right to control their premises and then would seek assistance from the mall owner. But in all of these cases, this bill would, would add language that prohibits you from doing that on the basis of the individual being homeless. You know, but you could do it for all of the same reasons you could do to any other individual if they commit, you know, criminal activity, or are harassing or, you know, damaging properties something like that. See another question. I want to finish as close to 430 as we can. I thought you said hang out I'm sorry thank you, Mr chair. I think that the police department and the fire departments when they do their coin drops. If we get permission from the city or town. I could, I remember they are alderman. When I was at a meeting there. There was a request for them to do that. So I think that might be the difference. Yeah. Yep. I just want to make a point that we had a very long discussion about the term perceived or the perception of being homeless and we never really came to a conclusion about that and I'm not really opening it for discussion today. I think that's something for us to think about, but I did want to ask your opinion, Damian, because I don't remember the answer to this question. As defined in 42 USC 11302 the definition of homeless. Does that there's a US code mentioned perceived homeless. I will get you an answer to that. I think I am. It might take me a couple of minutes and I want to be conscious of the time here. Would it be okay to the committee if I just email you the answer. Sure. Thank you. Okay. Sure, I'll send you the section of code and then Ron can post that for anyone who's following this debate and wants the answer. So I will do that this evening. Thank you. Thank you. All right, committee. I guess we can go on.