We're going to get started, since it's now 802, my apologies. I'm Chris Connery, one of the P2I3s. I'm going to be presenting today a case that I saw on a call, and that has kind of circulated through the Marilal Ophthalmology Clinic and also one of the P2I3 clinics. I'm going to entitle with it complicated optic disc edema, and you'll see why. I'm trying to change the title from what's on the flyer, just to make it a little less obvious, but I'm going to change the name, just to check the history. That's right, exactly. And so this was a 13-year-old girl that I saw on a Thursday night that presented to the primary children's hospital with the 10-day history of vision loss, and what she initially described as right and much greater than left. Her pacemote history was significant for Hashimoto's thyroiditis, and then a remote history of headache has kind of had a headache in what she describes as years, and also a BMI of 37, but was otherwise healthy, not taking any medications. She said that this vision loss developed while she was reading a book at school that literally within a minute went from clear vision in her right eye to extremely blurry vision to the point where she could not read the book any longer in really seeing the clock at school. She also endorsed metamorphopsia, but otherwise didn't really endorse any other kind of symptoms. Denied headaches, I asked her probably a half dozen times in ER that night. The neuro-opemology staff, as you can guess, asked her the same thing the next day. She also denied pulse title prejudice at any sort of recent weight gain, at least within the last six months. But prior to that, had endorsed, I think, a little 50 pound weight gain. And denied any medications, any changes in medications was not currently taking the medications at the time. Her story to expand on a little bit further, so 10 days prior to when I got to see her as the resident on call, I guess seven days prior to that, was seen by optometrists in the community who noted bilateral discodema and referred her to a retina specialist. The exact story there's a little, I'm not quite for sure the exact story, this is all outside of our system. The retina specialist then saw her one day prior to me seeing her in the ER and agreed there was bilateral discodema and then noted some sub-retinal blood. So referred her to primary children's hospital for further evaluations, bilateral discodema, mainly for an MRI and a lumbar puncture because he couldn't get her into a neurologist to be seen in the mall, is what they were saying was their own disappointment. So prior to me even seeing her, or I guess in the process to me seeing her, she underwent an LP with an opening pressure of 41, CSF labs would basically become unremarkable over the next 24 hours. MRI brain was unremarkable and then of course we were consulted for discodema and kind of further evaluation. And Chris, just for those in the room, what is the opening pressure of the limit? Yeah, so normal opening pressure 20 to 21 would be normal, extremely elevated. So then on that side exam, she was 2,400 in the right eye, 20 to 20 in the left eye. She had an APB in the right, X-chocomotility was full. She had a central scatoma in the right eye that was large enough that I had to pick up on top of the visual fields. She had an IOP, about the 20 in both eyes and then anterior segment was unremarkable. So on dilated exam, and I'll show you some photos of this here in just a second, but she had a bilateral optic discodema right, forced to the left. And then she had scattered some rep of blood and fluid that basically emanated from the disc and tracked into the macula and almost underneath the philtia of the right eye. So we can see here, those images, so a bilateral discodema, then subredal blood. And then, I'm not gonna mention it now, but I think looking back on these photos, this wasn't as readily apparent. But it looks like there may be a neovascular membrane that was not easily discernible in the ER, or even the base of the X-ray of the slow vantage. And otherwise fairly unremarkable, as that's kind of the findings that I've already mentioned. So at least at this point, we've kind of ruled out several things on the differential diagnosis of bilateral discodema. We had tossed around at least Thursday night that maybe this was pseudo edema, but we had an opening pressure of 41, so that was elevated pseudo edema-related optic disc drusen, IIH. This would be a very, very scary IIH presentation, possibly in fenestration that night if it was all related to IIH. We've already kind of ruled out an intranial mass lesion, CNS infection, we've done the same. The imaging staff and the neuro radiologist felt like they had adequately ruled out these sorts of bronchosis. So then I kind of add this last point because we were kind of trying to explain that all of the subredal blood and the significant vision loss in a patient that looked like a straightforward IIH patient. And so we basically thought, well maybe that's a problem you've asked to remember, maybe it's related to some pseudo edema, but we had an opening pressure of 41. So we weren't quite for sure exactly what was going on with the limited imaging at that point. So we brought her back the next day to the neuro ophthalmology clinic of the Dr. DeGruy and Dr. Neufelds. We did a visual field that had a large blind spot on the left eye and then in the right eye we did a golden visual field in her poor visual acuity denoted this large, simple scatoma. We then did a B scan to look for calcified drusen or I should say Dr. Harry did a B scan looking for calcified drusen. Has an elevated disc but no obvious calcified drusen and supports kind of optic nerve prusen. Then we did an F A that kind of sealed the deal at that point and I'm only showing images in the right eye because the left eye was unremarkable. But kind of that green discoloration we saw in the photos like I said it wasn't nears apparent on exam. You can see this area of leakage, this kind of peritapillary lesion here that progressively leaks as we go farther into the F A suggesting a needle vascular memory. Then we did perform an OCT that was kind of consistent with everything we've already shown and mentioned. So swollen nerve here and fluid that basically tracks all day in the macula and almost anything. So then we'll talk more about this but we started around diamox for IAH advocated weight loss and referred her to retina for this peritapillary neovascular membrane presumably for a vast treatment. So she was seen that afternoon by Dr. Hartman and Dr. Feitz underwent a single avastome injection and we'll talk about that here in a second with resolution or at least near resolution of the subrout of fluid a month later and visual appealing from 2,400 count fingers range to 2,040 with a month of a single avastome injection. And that's not uncommon for these cases and Dr. Feitz wanted me to point this out that she was faced by Feitz and so. So then on visual field and it's kind of hard to compare the golden visual field in the right eye of the initial presentation but she has this kind of enlarged blind spot with kind of tracking into the central visual field and then resolution at this point and a month later of the enlarged blind spot on the left eye. So what do we know about optic discidema and peritapillary neovascular membranes? I can tell you that when I was on call I didn't know anything prior to this but it's a fairly infrequent occurrence but I think it's under reported in the literature actually after talking to some of the retina staff and all mentioning that they've at least seen cases usually quarrel in their clinics. So it's an infrequent occurrence like I said in the literature but I think that may be under reported. A retrospective study basically looked at from a tertiary referral center looked at the incidents of IIH patients referred to them that had peritapillary neovascular membranes and they found incidents of 0.53%. So fairly rare even in tertiary referral centers in the literature itself from 1970 to the 2010 there's been 23 cases of adults presented in the literature and they've attempted about everything in a match. So a lot of this was prior to the advent of a vastance so we've attempted just lowering ICP which has shown that it will actually cause peritapillary neovascular membrane to needle-loop by just lowering ICP. We've done PET and ART on the laser I say we is an ophthalmology community not me, myself, I wasn't born yet. Then we've tried PET and ART on the laser those have kind of fallen out of favor. An optic nerve sheath illustration has also been attempted but seemed to work as well. The exact mechanism of these treatments is not clear but do seem to work. Then with the advent of anti-vetchup in 2009 the first peritapillary neovascular membrane related to IAH was performed and with the single injection of anti-vetchup so a vastin complete regression of the evascular membrane was resolution of vision from basically count fingers to 2020 within six weeks of injection. Unfortunately there are some cases that are refractory and that's not the majority and the majority actually respond to a single evastin but there is a reported case out there that required four injections of anti-vetchup therapy with basically no effect on resolution of the sub-reval fluid and also return the baseline visual outcomes or visual acuity. So there are refractory cases but for the most part they seem to be exquisitely sensitive to being a single anti-vetchup therapy. In the pediatric population it's even more rare that there have been two prior reported cases in the pediatric population. The first was actually described in 2010 and for unclear reasons but kind of similar to lowering ICP this patient only underwent a diagnostic lumbar puncture but I guess it was also therapeutic because they had complete involution of the peritapillary neovascular membrane with just the lumbar puncture alone. Initial diagnosis. Then the second case was in 2013 due to so the patient started on dimox to treat ICP but due to worsening sub-rutin on blood they elected after kind of an extensive conversation with the family about anti-vetchup therapy and the risks the kids elected to perform a evastin injection and noted the resolution of the evastin membrane with single evastin injection. Then if we look at just kind of some simple studies looking at neovascular membranes in the pediatric population so there was a two year retrospective study looking at all the reported neovascular membranes at this specific center and the underlying etiology of those neovascular membranes they found 36 sites so fairly low numbers in the pediatric population at this institute but none were related to optic disc. 47% were related to inflammatory conditions to some sort of mediated phenomenon. And then just to kind of put this in there this is also important in a differential especially these presentations. 8% were from optic nerve head bruising. So fairly rare entity and maybe even more rare in the pediatric population. I still think at least from the discussions that have some of the retina and even neuro-ophthalmology stats maybe under-reported. Not quite as sure in the pediatric population. The mechanism of why this occurs and elevated intracranial pressure discidema is unclear but there's kind of two hypotheses and most individuals think it's a combination of the two. But the first is that there's a disruption of Brux membrane that is basically resultant from discidema that then allows in growth of vessels from the cordic capillaries. Then that's kind of the other side of that hypothesis is that due to discidema there's this chronic kind of axonal swelling along the optic nerve to at least a hypoxic environment, VEGF production, and then subsequently neovascular mutation, possibly being peripatillary neovascular membrane. Most people that have published on this would say that this only seems to occur in chronic optic nerve edema and their rationale for that is kind of following. So if they look at patients that present with peripatillary neovascular membranes in the setting of IIH, 50% of them will deny any sort of headache history similar to our patient. So they're at least hypothesizing that these patients aren't undergoing the normal IIH surveillance, aren't having their optic nerves evaluated and therefore have chronic disc swelling allowing the peripatillary neovascular membrane to grow from this kind of chronic optic nerve swelling. The other 50% of patients that's just their thoughts, I don't know that necessarily explains it all, but then that's kind of further supported by a study that looks at all of their peripatillary neovascular membrane patients in long-celled IIH, and it seemed to be that patients that they had followed for two to nine years, so chronic symptoms that followed for IIH, they never really saw peripatillary neovascular membranes occur until kind of late with chronic disc swelling. So that's kind of their rationale for kind of this chronic disc swelling being a growing etiology. And so that's at least peripatillary neovascular membranes related to IIH. There's a lot of other things that cause peripatillary neovascular membranes. I of course didn't talk about those, but that's at least something we need to be aware of because like I've already mentioned, I think it's much more common than maybe even literature supports. And it's something that we can do, something of talent in most cases. So any thoughts or questions? And I guess before we get to that, Cooper has already begun surveillance or I've already done surveillance for the peripatillary neovascular membranes. Don't worry. Any questions, thoughts, concerns, yes, Dr. Olsen? So if you think about the fact that it was exquisitely sensitive to VEGF inhibitors, it's hard to imagine that the theory that this is largely mechanical makes sense. And there's obviously got to be up-regulation of VEGF. And if you think about the anatomy, you could imagine the swelling and the rest of it in some area of the localized VEGF increase is certainly got to be part of this order. VEGF has to be a key molecule in this process. Probably get sensitive. So the other thing is that we're talking about how common is this. There can be small localized areas and if they never break complete, and then they get their sort of tumor treated. And it's resolved, obviously, in an endemic sense, if you're getting some of that swelling and whatever localized mechanical issues causing localized ischemia, there may be a lot of these. We just never looked. And it could be the issue that Bob Hopman loves to say always about W and N often beats on a gentleman's hand. We never looked. That's right. And this may be an example. So I suggest this could be an interesting study. I don't think, but let's just take everyone who comes in and maybe has had an intrependent open open. This had hypertension, a pseudo tumor for a period of time and just dual CTs of what they did. There may be small cell numbering way more often than the funny. Yeah. And what I had, didn't mention it. Yeah, they did just a very interesting study because like I said, there's numbers there, but wouldn't they find that there are ACEs in the medics, small ones that are there on a much more personal basis? Right. And what most groups will also mention is that a lot of these chronic disc edema patients don't present until they have significant vision decline. And that's usually due to an approach that a subrennial was into the macular and the phobia fast. So, yeah, it's, I think it's, like I said, and Dr. Olson also, yeah, Dr. Kerri. Very nice, Chris. Just a question, your view of the literature about optic dysrhusin and subrennial evascularization, peripapillary, did you get a number from that at all? Yeah, so at least in the pediatric population, I didn't specifically look at adults. But this very, very small study mentions that 8% of peripapillary neo-vascular membranes would be associated with optic nerve tumors. That was pediatric. As a pediatric pediatrics. And like I said, I mean, this study, there are 36 patients. So, I mean, this could be much higher, much lower, but that's literally the literature on peripapillary neo-vascular membranes in the pediatric population. I didn't specifically look at adult population, but at least from a quick kind of review, it looks fairly similar to that. But, so I don't know the exact numbers. I guess around 10, just seeing a lot of derudia just makes kind of a number. It's somewhere in that range of 5% to 15%. It's not large, but it's not something to ignore. Is that you, Eileen? I'd like to ask the neuro-optimologists about the role of FAA in distinguishing papillodema from pseudo-papillodema. Does lack of hyperflorescence at the disc eliminate papillodema or papillitis as a possibility? We absolutely, the axoplasmic kind of congestion really makes them a plot. And so when we're looking at pseudo-papillodema, that's one of the things that we look for. It's just really hard to do FAs on everyone when we have such clinical exam findings that are obvious. But we could go back and do, if we're going to do a study with OCTs, we could add in FAs and also work. So Dr. Hollis, this is great. One of the things that we have trouble sorting out at times are the kids who have non-calcified optic nerve head drusen from chronic dyscadema. And I'm wondering with these, the asymptomatic, I don't have a headache kids who look like they have chronic dyscadema, how many of those actually would treatment, I mean, the nerves change, whether they actually had buried drusen and we know that's a cause of subrenominal nevascular membranes around the disc. I mean, the ones I've personally seen over the years, one that strikes out about 20 years ago was a little girl with chronic, chronic inflammatory dyscadema who had fluorid subrenominal nevascular membranes unfortunately ultimately expired from her anti-inflammatory treatment to try to control things was just a unmitigated disaster. But these could be very difficult. Yeah, very difficult to dissect. I mean, the one thing that kind of forced our was the opening pressure of 40 to one. So at that point, we had to assume it was real great even without identifying optic nerve. You got a elevated opening pressure, I think that's different. But some of these, I wonder how rigorously things were sorted out in some of these reports. So that report of 36 patients, I would not say that's the most rigorous study that I've ever seen. There you go. I mean, they have something out there, right? So that's better than nothing, but it wasn't the most rigorous. Looks like we need them. Okay, well, so any other questions?


The day is finally here. I'm going to Sweden. So I was a Swedish exchange student back in 1997-98, and I absolutely loved it. This is a dream trip. When I lived in Sweden as an exchange student, I always wanted to go north, way north, and experience the midnight sun. But I never made it happen. Until today. Luckily, I have a late flight, which means I can have a leisurely morning and go to breakfast with two of my favorite people. Last little bike ride in Boulder for a while. All right, I pulled off to the side of the road to show you how beautiful Boulder looks right now. It's all green and glorious. There it is, the famous Duzerito, and I'm with Santa and Dana. Thank you. I love you too. I'll miss you. Oh, it's time for Mexican food. I won't get a lot of this in Sweden. Oh, beautiful Boulder. I love you. I am getting in one last run because from here on out for the next three weeks or so, I'm going to be on a bike, and you know I love running too. Hey, look, it's Amelia Boone. Why aren't you going to Sweden? Because I have to work. Oh, you have one of those nine-to-fives. Have a good one. I will see you down the road. I'll think of you when I'm way up at the top of the world. I'll say hi to Santa Claus for you. And now I am in a car, not driving because I don't really drive. We're heading to the bus station, and the bus will take me to the airport. You want to know who's driving? It's my mama. It's mommy. How you doing? I'm good for your adventure. Oh, thanks. You've taken me and dropped me off in a lot of these adventures. I appreciate it. Many. Many, many. You don't worry anymore, right? No, that's not true. Her hair is a little bit gray. Those are all because of me. But I'm wishing you well, and I know you're going to have a great time. Thank you. I love you. Love you too. You be safe. I will be. I promise. Bye, Ryan. Love you too. You have the best time, and you be safe. I will be safe. I promise. I promise. I love you. Here we go. I'm on my personal limousine. Check it out. This is the bus that I've been taking to the airport forever. All right. I'm at the airport in this cool little outdoor hangout zone, and I am just so excited to be going to Sweden. I was an exchange student there back in 1998. It was a very influential year of my life. I had never really traveled outside of Boulder. I hadn't been away from my family and my brothers and sister and my mom, and I grew a lot, and I really owe a lot to Sweden. I love it with all of my heart. I love my host family. I love my Swedish sister, Sofia and Carl and Gustav, and I am just overjoyed that I'm on my way now to Sweden, and I'm going to stop talking because I need to go get on my flight. But man, I'm just happy. I immediately felt at home in Sweden, and I owe a lot of that to my sister, Sofia. She made sure that I was included in everything. We went to the same school, both the final year of gymnasium, which is their version of being a senior in high school. She even introduced me to her best friend, Terace, who later became my girlfriend, my first love. In the beginning, I didn't know any Swedish, but after a few months of school and reading children's books with my Swedish mom, I started to get the hang of Svenska. Thank you, Pippi Longstocking. By the end of the year, I didn't want to go back to Boulder. I loved Sweden with all of my heart. So you're probably wondering where my bike is. Well, we sent it ahead of time with DHL, and I really hope it's there. Because if it's not, I'll be walking the length of Sweden. There's my flight right there. Oh man, we're getting so close. I have been wanting to do this adventure for a very long time. Last summer, I had everything packed, my bike packed, and 24 hours before my flight, Scandinavian Airlines went on strike and all the itineraries were cleared, so I couldn't go. But I'm at it again this year, one year later. Nothing's gonna stop me. I will never forget the moment that I left my family in this very room that was back when people could come to your actual gate before all the security stuff. I left my family in 1997, and I just had tears streaming down my face. I was scared. I had never done anything like this before, and I was getting on a plane and going to live in a foreign country for a full year. And man, was it hard. I was crying with my brothers and my mom, and I was a mess. And as you know, I'm a softie. I love these magic carpets because they're so smooth, great place to film. Anyway, I was scared to death when I got on the flight and when I got to Sweden and was embraced by my new host family. All my worries just flew away because they're just so loving and welcoming and kind, and I am so excited to see them. I'm going to ride my bike from the top all the way to the bottom where they live, and I'm going to hug them and kiss them, and it's going to feel so good. This is cool. You were never able to do this before. You could never just walk outside, and now you can, and I love it because fresh air out of an airport is quite a luxury. I'm just standing here looking at beautiful Colorado summertime, and you know one of the main reasons why I'm so excited about this is I get to visit an entirely new part of Sweden and travel through Sweden in a way that I've never done before. I get to ride my bike 1,500 miles from the very top to the bottom and most of the top part of Sweden is just woods. It's going to be fascinating and this sun right here is never going to set when I'm way up north. How cool is that? Maybe I'll ride my bike till midnight. Here we go, here we go. Okay, I'm going to be the buffering. I have 20 minutes to my next flight boards. And this, my friends, is why I wear running shoes to the airport just in case you need to run. I made it. Ooh, that was a close one. And I'm in Sweden. Do you know what this is? This is a chocolate ball Hukladboll I've loved these since day one in Sweden. Oh yeah, I get to walk outside I get to breathe a little Swedish air now. Oh man, I can't tell you how happy I am right now. I just got to speak some Swedish with the lady at the desk and look, there's my plane and it's taking me to the North Pole. It's raining a little bit but it feels good. It's like 9.15pm and totally light out. It's like that. This is a tiny airport. I'm out the door and on my way to the hotel. Here I am on the streets of Kyruna and I'm ready to sleep but maybe I'll put the bike together first. I don't know. I heard that it's here. Very good news. I got confirmation at the Stockholm Airport that they have my bike. Thank you, DHL. Head Adam Taximika Here we go. It's pretty amazing that I got here and my bike got here all as well. Check it out. Ryan Van Duzer's bike for Sweden This isn't the ideal area to put together a bike. It's kind of tight in this Scandinavian hotel room but the sun's still shining. It's almost 10pm. Now for the moment of truth is it all here? All right. I mean it looks like it's here. I should probably get some sleep. I've been up for about 24 hours now but I'm jacked. I'm wired. I want to get this thing together and then I'll fall asleep. Trying to get down to the bottom here. I love it when I'm smart. I packed this pretty early last week and I'm glad that I put my fig bars in there because I'm hungry right now. I'm going to eat this.  This bike is the priority 600x and I designed it with my friends at priority bicycles. What makes it unique is the pinion and gates low maintenance drivetrain. If you want to nerd out about all the details I will put some links down below along with an entire packing list of everything I'm bringing. And check it out. I finally got a new bike computer. This is the solar powered Garmin 1040. I'm excited because we have lots of solar power. It is past 11 now and fully bright outside. All right. It's looking pretty good. It's not totally there but it is 1123. And this is just blowing my mind. It is completely bright up. I mean it's cloudy but hi mom how's it going? I'm up. I'm putting the bike together. I'm all wired and I thought get a head start on things. Anyway I just wanted to call and tell you that I love you that I'm safe and I'm at the top of the world. Look at that. Look at this. It is 1155pm I should be sleeping but I wanted to experience sunlight at midnight and it's fully bright out as you can see. Unbelievable. And I imagine if there were no clouds it would be even brighter. All right. I'm just going to go for a little walk, shake out everything. I've been traveling for a while and then hopefully fall asleep and then get up and then start the adventure. Okay. It is now 30 minutes past midnight and if I'm going to sleep I'm going to need to shut this down. Okay. Travel days are always just so discombobulating. It's been 24 hours since I left Boulder and airplanes just blow me away. I'm so grateful for airplanes and how they can just transport humans so quickly around the world. Now it's time to sleep. I got to get some sleep. I got to go to bed. Good night. Good night.  There's a couple adapters for Swedish plugs my box of batteries and cables my Pelican case full of lots of SD cards my GoPro and this is a new toy. This is the Garmin In-Reach messenger and I pretty much got this so that I can let my mom know that I'm okay when I don't have cell phone reception. I am going to be in the middle of nowhere quite a bit. I have been told by pretty much everybody in Sweden that the mosquitoes up here are horrible. So I have this cool head net that's going to keep me safe. I don't know if I'll wear it while riding. Hopefully I won't need it while riding but definitely at night time and camp I'm going to be wearing this stylish accessory. Looks like a wedding veil or something in black. Okay. You want to hear something funny that's not so funny? Well, it's kind of funny actually. I did an almost perfect job but then I realized I don't have any shorts. All I have are my long pants and you know, I need some shorts. So shopping trip now. Okay. I'm at a Swedish dressing room now and I found some shorts here that I think will work. What do you think? Looks pretty good. I'm happy with it. And there's a bonus Swedish flag. Oh yeah. Now it's time to buy some Swedish food. You know they have Nutella. This is where I fell in love with Nutella when I was an exchange student. My mom brought it out the first morning I was here and I freaked out because it was so good. I'm always blown away by how much food grocery stores have. Even here at the top of the world, you can get any vegetable or fruit you could ever imagine. Oh, check it out. I found the Mexican section and I was an exchange student here long ago. It was really hard to find anything from Mexico. And look, they even have tortillas. But do they have beans? We'll find out. I am not seeing beans. Where are my beans? Beans, beans, beans. Oh man. Well, I didn't really expect them to have refried beans, but maybe I'll find something to put in these tortillas. In fact, did you know that Oatly is a Swedish brand? I drink this at home in Boulder. Look what I found. Nutella and even the generic brand Nut Cream. Nut Cream. Oh, and here's the peanut butter. You know, I feel exhausted just having packed all this up. It takes a long time. But I'm ready to hit the road, I think. It's about 12 30. It's not an early start, but hey, the sun never sets so I can ride forever. Okay, wide load coming through. It's a cozy fit, but it works. Thanks for everything. I really appreciate it. It's really nice. Okay, Ryan, let's do this. Ah, the fresh air makes everything better. I'm ready to cruise. There's my bike. There's all my stuff. There's my shoes. Here's me. Here's Sweden. Sun all day all night. There's my entire route here down Sweden. This is my route. A not so direct way to get from here in Kiruna to the bottom of Sweden. Why isn't it direct, you ask? Well, I want to ride the Swedish section of the Euro divide trail, which is mostly on remote dirt roads. In fact, a thousand miles a 100 mile route is on this trail. And check this out. The entire Euro divide is 4,700 miles long and goes from Portugal all the way to Northern Norway. Maybe I'll do that one another day, but for today I've created a route that will get me to the Swedish section of the divide trail and that's about 90 miles away. I'm back in Sweden. No crashes, no flaties no whammies all the way down Sweden. Ole, ole, ole, ole. Check it out. There's a sign for the world famous Ice Hotel. I wonder how much ice is happening right now. But I'm going that way. Sorry, Ice Hotel. I'll come back in the winter sometime and check out the Northern Lights. There's a lot more people up here than I thought there'd be. A lot of cars on the road and I'm guessing it's because the mid-summer holiday is tomorrow and Swedes love to go outside and celebrate mid-summer when the weather is nice. This is definitely one of the busiest roads I've ridden in a long time and I really don't like it.  So I'm going to do my best to ride as fast as possible and get off this thing. Ah, the traffic. I picked the wrong day to be on this road. So a lot of the names around here are actually Indigenous.  And maybe I'll get to meet some. I don't know. I've never met a Sami person. It's going to be interesting to see if I can find one. I just pulled right off the road here. Check this out. I did not expect to see this way up here. A Tesla charging station. Nice. I guess Sweden has embraced the Teslas as well. I found a bike path along the highway. Yes! Any break from cars, car noise is a welcome break. But I know this is only going to last another a quarter of a mile, but I am going to enjoy it. I just want to point out something to you. So this is a Swedish summer house and they pretty much all look the same. They're red with white trim. Very classic and beautiful. And I'm going to show you a lot of these all the way down Sweden. I'll expand a bit on the Swedish summer house thing. You might be thinking, really they have a summer house? Are Swedes super rich? No, not really. But summer houses are usually very rustic. They're like cabins really.  Swimming is a big thing in the summertime. And another reason why they have summer houses, the place to go to escape the city life is because Swedes have like five or six weeks of vacation every year. Which is way more than us in the United States. They know how to live life and enjoy it. That goes for most Europeans actually. And they go to their summer houses with their families and just hang out in mid-summer, which is going to be celebrated tomorrow. It's like the prime day for heading summer houses. Little red cabins with white trim. You'll see them all over Sweden. I feel like I'm getting into my groove a little bit. Got off to a little bit of a shaky start. Didn't sleep last night or really the night before on the airplane. But I'm moving forward I'm pedaling my bike and I'm enjoying life. And I feel like with every pedal stroke my blood pressure goes down a little bit. I'm in Sweden. I've been dreaming of this for a long time. Here's another cool road sign Myrvara. Looks like this one is in two languages. I'm guessing one is Swedish, one is Sami. Myrvara.  It's some sort of mining operation probably iron ore. That's what this area is known for. But it looks like a space station. So speaking of iron ore there is the largest, the world's largest iron ore operation in Kiruna. And I guess it's gotten so big that they're moving the entire town. Hello! They're moving the entire town because they need more room for the iron ore operation and digging and excavating. And you want to know who I learned that from? My new friend Bike Touring Mike He's here on YouTube. I will link his stuff here. He makes great bike touring videos and he lives up here and he's been giving me all sorts of good tips about northern Sweden. It is now 9pm. I have officially been in Sweden for 24 hours. Woo! Yeah! And on a normal bike tour I would never ride my bike until 9pm. I usually finish my days by 4 or 5 so I can set up my tent before it gets dark. But that's not a thing here so I'm taking advantage of it. Another reason why I'm still riding is because I have severe jet lag. I'm still on Colorado time and back home it's like midday. So I've got energy. My hope is that if I ride hard enough today I will be so tired I will just fall fast asleep. I hope. If not, we're in real big trouble tomorrow because I can't go without sleep this long.  It's kind of hard to tell. But there's a reindeer my very first Swedish reindeer. And finally off at highway E10 I hope to never see you again. Oh, this is much better. I haven't seen a car in a little while now and it's all downhill. Thank you for the warm welcome. Uh oh, I'm going up a hill at a slow pace which means the mosquitoes can keep up with me. And yeah, they're coming out in force. I didn't notice them last night in Kiruna but every time I stopped my bike to do anything they descend on me. I start the day off with bug juice on my body but I might have to do that from now on. They're everywhere.  I'm helpless.  Ooh, I see another reindeer. I see a reindeer. Look at him. So cool. My first time ever with a reindeer in real life except in Christmas movies. That's so cool. Oh my god, I can't do this. The mosquitoes are all over me. It's going to be a problem. Goodbye reindeer. The antlers are so cool. They look like they're covered in felt. Just like in the movies. Hey buddy. He doesn't care about the mosquitoes all over me. Oh man. I've seen some clear cut areas like this behind me. There's always a few trees left growing tall and I wonder did the machines just not pick up those trees for some reason? Did somebody choose not to because those trees are sacred? I don't know but I love it. They look pretty staggering standing out by themselves.  Okay. I am officially on the European Divide Trail. Which makes me happy. I'm hoping that they don't have riders go on big roads like the one I was on earlier today. So I'm guessing it's going to be like this. The only thing annoying me are going to be mosquitoes. And I'll take that over a raging semi-truck any day. It only took me 90 miles to get here. And now it's past 10 p.m. and I think I'm going to start looking for a campsite. So there's this really cool thing in Sweden called Allemandsretten and it pretty much means you can camp anywhere you want. Maybe not in somebody's garden but anywhere. Which is really cool and I've never taken advantage of it. I remember learning about it when I was an exchange student and I thought that's fascinating because there aren't many places in the world like that where just all the land is open for people to recreate on. Which is pretty cool. Alright I pulled off that road and I'm looking for flat ground. It's pretty lumpy around here and wet so I'm hoping this road will present something to me. The other challenge of getting all my stuff set up are the mosquitoes. I'm going to have to do this lightning fast. Because they're coming. They're telling all the friends.  I'm happy with this spot right there. That looks nice and flat right? It's time to dance.  Okay I've got a little protection now and I put on bug juice. This is nuts. This is so nuts. I put bug juice all over my legs. 100% deep. These mosquitoes in Sweden are hungry. I've never experienced anything quite like that. I mean I've been around mosquitoes but not like that. Oh my god everybody's stories are definitely true. Everybody warned me that the mosquitoes were going to be rough. Damn.   I'm all cozy and safe. The first thing I'm going to do is eat this falafel. I've been dreaming about this all day. I mostly ate just snacks and bars and almonds and stuff. But this is going to taste good. And now I'm using my awesome little Garmin satellite messenger thing. Letting my mom and Amelia know that I'm okay. This is pretty amazing. This might be the best tasting cookie I've ever had. You can't get me mosquitoes, take that. But you know what? I'm a little worried about going to the bathroom. Every time I leave this tent they're going to go nuts and descend on me. Usually when I'm camping in places other than northern Scandinavia when the sun goes down the mosquitoes go away. But that doesn't happen here. I don't know how I'm going to deal with this the next few weeks. Hopefully. Maybe I'm just in a really bad spot. Maybe tomorrow night will be better. I don't know. Always look on the bright side. Positive side, right? Oh gosh. But I rode 90 miles today. Feel good about that. I'm on the European Divide Trail. Shouldn't have to deal with crazy roads anymore. And I'm in Sweden. I'm here. I'm living my dream. I chose to be here. Oh. And now it's going to rain. Anyway. Buenas noches. Thanks for watching the video. There'll be many more. Stay tuned. Man. This is not fun. I don't even care about the rain anymore. It's the mosquitoes. Huh. Hey. I just wanted to jump in and say hi. Hi. If you enjoy my videos and they bring value to your life please consider joining my Patreon. Your support will keep my channel alive so that I can continue making content for you to enjoy. And not only will you be supporting my channel but you'll get early release videos and videos with zero ads. And from time to time I do these really fun live zoom chats with my patrons where you can ask me all sorts of questions. About anything you want. So consider supporting me. I will link it down below. Also I wrote a book about my very first adventure called The Long Way Home and I think it's pretty good and my mom thinks it's pretty good so maybe you'll think it's good too. I will link this down below if you would like to purchase it. International orders are tough. The shipping is crazy so this is pretty much the end. Anyway, thank you so much for watching this video. This is going to be an awesome series and stay tuned for the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one. Hey doll!


Welcome to the World Radio Communication Conference 2023, WRC 23 here in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, where I'm very pleased to be joined in the studio today by Tariq Alawadi, who is Executive Director of Spectrum Affairs for the Spectrum Management Affairs Department of the Telecommunications and Government Regulatory Authority, TDRA of the United Arab Emirates. Tariq, welcome to the studio. Welcome. Thank you very much, Max. It's my pleasure to be with you here and welcome you all here in UAE and Dubai for this WRC 23. Well, it's absolutely our pleasure to be here. Now, it's an understatement to say that you are no stranger to ITU or ITU events. You are, in fact, Chairman of this very conference in 2012. Tariq, can I ask you, how have things changed since then? Well, let me give you a brief little bit. My first WRC was 2000, WRC 2000 in Istanbul. So that was my first WRC and I was new for that area and I saw it very nice and trusting. So then later I said, this is important for me, so I will go forever.  And of course, after that, we all was coming. WRC, WRC is 2000, 2003, 2007. In 2012, I had the chance to chair that WRC in Geneva and it was very fantastic. It was good experience, I learned so many things. And of course, the things from that time till now, it changed a lot, technology changed, its evolution. You can see it all over the world. That time when it started at the beginning, it was 2G or 3G. Now we are talking about 5G in mobile if you are talking. In satellite, we are talking about GSO, non-GSO and now we have so many things and non-GSO covering the world. So there are a lot of challenges every time with new technology evolution. In terms of procedures, it's almost the same. The same people, the same that one. ITU, especially in ITUR sector, they have very excellent procedure for how to prepare for WRC. There is a cycle starting after the WRC, going to CPM, going to study groups, coming back to CPM and then the WRC. So things good change on the technologies, but the procedures looking after on the WRC, study groups, it's similar. It was a big responsibility, obviously being chairman here of the WRC. Do you think that the responsibilities or the challenges are the same now? Almost. See, what we are doing here, we are having different, different position, views, submitting contribution here, like we had here more than 200 contributions being submitted to this conference. So conference is always four weeks. So as today I was talking to the people, the first week let everybody talk. Let everybody express their views. Second week it will be more discussing, discussing either. Third week we will come with a compromising. We have to find a solution. And of course, last week it will be results. So people in the first week always like that. You will not see administration or regional groups, they will give up on their position. They will try to continue a little bit. This next second week, third week, it's really good and at the end of the conference, someone telling me what do you expect on 15 December? Excellent, good result. We will have successful conference. What impact will the decisions taken here have on the region once the conference is finished? If you are talking about all regions worldwide, of course, at this conference we have a number of important agenda items. One of the hottest agenda item which is 6 gigahertz and agenda item 1.2. And of course any decision will be taken that it will have immediately impact on the telecom sector and IC sector, either IMT or other services. So that will change a lot in the sector and the region. Everybody waiting to see the result of that one. Go anywhere right now and read articles and seminars. They will talk to you about 6 gigahertz, 6 gigahertz is important. Now that will change industry. That will change in economic. This will have big impact on the economic. It depends on which services that will go. So a result of WRC will have big impact in the ICT sector and the worldwide, and especially in the region here also. In IMT and satellite, we do have right now in this region, in Arab region, UAE and other countries, we have a lot of interest right now in space services, space science. We do have now a number of projects coming for satellite communication. And space science also, you may hear that UAE already had mission to Mars. We did have also mission to the moon, but it was not successful. So and still we are continuing to have more and more satellite business. If you talk about aeronautical and maritime, that will be also change on how to use that this devices or new regulatory assignment for aeronautical. So the result of WRC always have impact on the region and the ICT sector. And UAE has big important also to see. Once the WRC finished, everybody go back and to review their spectrum, national spectrum handbook or national spectrum agreement. We do have it here in the UAE, national spectrum plan. Immediately we start to do change and to see what effect and also for the mobile services. Looking ahead, how do you see the future of radio and telecommunications in the UAE? It is playing very big role. As I mentioned just now, we are having a lot of different new technologies. New innovation in artificial intelligence, in IoT. UAE one of the first country in the world, fourth country in the world who launch 5G commercial. And now we are in the process to see the 6G, our labs, our universities already working with the 6G research. About satellite, satellite, business space, science, we do have a lot of approaches going on and that were required. For smart cities required to have good innovation radio in order to have good smart cities. So these things already we are working now. Of course, this will have impact on other sector, on education, on health, on energy that they are using also for this kind of spectrum to provide their services. For sustainability, as you wear marks that by end of this month, on 30th of November, UAE are going to host also COP28. One of the things that they are going to also have something on the telecom sector where they will site about the sustainability. And spectrum, it's one of the part of how to help for sustainability, help for environment. The more spectrum that you can give for services, the less space station, the less coming emission out of it. Exactly. So not just digital but green digital as well? Exactly. Yes, you are absolutely right. Digital green that we are working to see it about. That's wonderful. And in terms of our audience, our listeners, our viewers on this, is there a message perhaps that you would like to deliver to them while you have the floor here? Thank you, Max. This WRC, UAE will become as one of the first country in the world to host all ITU major events. We've been hosting events since 2007, GSR. Then WRC, as you said, WRC now, UAE is the only country who chaired twice WRC in 2012, in Geneva and now. WTAC, WTDC, Wicket, which is having every 20 or 25 years, ITU telecom. So UAE is one of the leading country in the ITU and the ICT sectors. And this is good also for image of the UAE for the, as we call it, soft power on using to have enhancing the ICT sector. WRC, it's very important, important conference for all wireless and radio communication services because outcome of this one will have impact on the industry, impact on the vendors, impact on other sectors. So our message to the people that this is, you have to be proud of that UAE has hosted such conference, big conference, bring a lot of people here like that, working together as one team. If you see, I think, Max, you can see the people here are happy of having this kind of conversation together. And this is the traditional of UAE culture and people. Well, you're living the message, definitely. And thank you so much for hosting this event here. We're all very grateful and look forward to catching up with you again soon, whether it be in UAE or around the world. And thank you very much indeed for being with us in the studio today. Thank you very much, Max. I'm pleasure to be here with you. Thank you. Thank you. And if you've enjoyed this interview, then please check out our other interviews on the ITU YouTube channel or our podcast on SoundCloud or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And for further information, please visit our website at www.itu.int. Thanks for tuning in.


This is Sophie and Bill on Vermont issues, and the program has to do with Disappearances, which showed just three or four days ago in Montpeer to a packed house. Yeah. And... They'll keep coming. We have the great fortune to have Lee and Axe, one of the members who played. We had a great discussion right afterwards, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. Right during the gallery. I enjoyed that as much as the play. Yeah. That was really nice. And the organization is the Lost Nation Theater. So maybe you'd like to say a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, and so on. Sure, yeah. I'm from Columbus, Ohio. I live in Brooklyn, New York now, but I grew up there. I went to high school there at Columbus Alternative High School. I even went to a career center where I studied theater like the first half of the day. Normally, it's like a two-year program, and I went the second year because I only found out about it during my junior year, so of course I missed out on that. But the last year, I spent the first half of the day doing theater, and the second half of the day doing normal high school stuff. But during that senior year was when we had a shadow program. Like you went to a career shadow thing, and I ended up just doing it with the director of that program. So it became a point on Wednesdays that I'd spend the entire time there just doing theater, which is really good because I didn't really know what I wanted to do for a while. So I finally, like, just delved as far into it as possible, and then ended up going after waiting a couple years after high school, ended up going to Audubon College when I first started going there, but throughout it became Audubon University because they really wanted to, well, they added a graduate program. I guess how that happened, but it was really nice. I got four years out of that, and then immediately moved to New York City. And that's where I live, and now I'm hanging out with y'all. Did you go into baseball games? Oh, yeah. We went to the Clippers when I was younger, back when they were still a farm team for the Yankees, actually, where Darryl Strawberry came from. Jack Robinson wasn't playing at that time. No, not at that time. Sad to say it would have been nice to see Jack Robinson. I think you heard a lot about him. Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess there are a lot of things that we should learn about when we're younger, but happily Jack Robinson is one of those people that his name gets spread throughout the ages, just his ability. And the beautiful film about Jack Robinson and his family. Yeah, yeah. Shelfie. Well, I would like to know what drew you into theater. I mean, that's a really sort of gutsy endeavor as an adult occupation, and especially coming to Montpelier. I mean, Vermont's pretty out there, and the play that you participated in is a very sort of secluded Vermont history that's been divulged a little bit. So were you drawn to this area? Were you invited? Was there something specifically that called you to this part? Yeah, Kim Bent specifically called me to this part. And you had worked together before? Not directly necessarily. When I first moved to New York, I mean, the reason I did theater is just because I like being on stage. That was part of it. And at first I'd gotten into it by doing carpentry. Like I came up, I went to some of the theater classes, and then someone said, here, take a hammer. And it was destruction day for one of the sets before. And we just get to beat up on a set. And I was like, this is a lot of fun. I want to do this more. And so I did for a while. And then one day they were doing Little Shop of Horrors. And they were like, hey, we need someone to be, I think the character's Patrick Martin, who comes in at the very end and tries to buy the plant to then sell it all over the world. And then suddenly you'd have this like horrific plant all over the planet. And he's like, no, no, we can't do it. But I swear I messed up every single line. I swear I didn't say it loud enough, or I shouted everything. Like everything was wrong. I was sweating bullets the entire time. But I loved it. And that's kind of when I started going on stage rather than just backstage. But I do both. I mean, I still work as a carpenter now. Almost specifically for theater. But anyway, fast forward to this. And when I first moved to New York, the first professional gig I got, was for Gus Kye Conan in the Peterborough Players of Peterborough, New Hampshire. And I've worked with them for about six seasons now. And I'm actually about to work with them again for their winter season. They're doing, it's a wonderful life radio play. And I'm going to do that in December. I don't know if I'm supposed to mention that, but here I am. And last year, they needed someone to come in for sense and sensibility. And Gus and Kim know each other from working together many times here. And I think also there, but I know here. And they asked if I would have done it. There was also another intern that they had asked at the time. And both he and I auditioned for Kim and got in. And then this year, and that was a show that Kathleen directed. And then this year, Kim hit me up with an email, because they apparently had an actor for the part. But for whatever reason, decided that he couldn't do it. And so he had to back out. And so I got into it and tried to learn all those lines as quickly as I could. You did really well. There's a lot of lines. So the disappearance is the play. And it literally has to do with the prohibition. Can you tell us the connection between disappearances, the title of the play, and prohibition? I mean, I can't say that I'm an expert on it. But, I mean, the play itself, how it's written, is not necessarily about prohibition. But it's definitely stemmed from the concept of prohibition, because I play Quebec Bill Bonhomme, who's kind of like, as Kim put it, like the engine that keeps the entire play rolling, because he just doesn't stop anything. He just keeps going the entire time. And his entire impetus is basically just transporting whiskey illegally, like whether it's moonshining or hijacking whiskey. He's ready to go. Like, let's do it. And across Lake Memphermagog. It's not just like any old place. It's like a huge desolate lake on the far side of a national boundary. Yeah. It's like really... Well, it's definitely like taking it from Canada to points all over New England. It's really like that one point in the play, like that's his like dream, as he's like, I don't want to give it away, like he's like a fever dream where he's like, I'm going to put whiskey everywhere. We're all going to drink and be happy again one day. And it definitely stems from the concept of prohibition, the idea that people aren't allowed to drink because it's forbidden. And I haven't gotten to that point in the book. Again, I was reading it at the beginning and then I found that it was kind of just mildly distracting just because then I was paying attention to like, you know, when you read all the Lord of the Rings books and you're watching the movies and you're like, wait, where's Tom Bombadil? Where's that weird guy who dances around in the hills and is kind of a deity within his own thing, started paying attention to all the little things. It's an adaptation. So it's going to have its own quirks. I was like starting to focus on the small stuff. I was like, I can't do that right now. So I'm going to read it, finish it. But prohibition definitely is, I mean, this play wouldn't be happening without that. It's definitely a response to that concept because it's, when you've got authorities in that show, it's almost in direct conflict with the concept of drinking. It's heavily thrown in the idea of drinking, but anytime you find an authority figure within the play, they're almost actively against it every single time. The prohibition was, I think, was clear to the audience that this was a prohibition period and illegal? I don't know, to be honest. You were saying that there were papers passed out. I haven't read those papers myself. The handout. The handout, the little handouts that the audience gets. But I mean, it is mentioned that it's 1932, 1933. That was the period. Which was the period, because it lasted from about the 20s to about 1933 Prohibition era. Funnily enough, where I went to college was Westerville, Ohio, which is where prohibition began. Is that a dry town? It's a dry campus. I know that. The town is not dry, but the campus is right in the heart of it. And that is dry. I mean, you know, when you get college people, it's almost built into the system here in America to drink. And so even though you've got a dry campus, you can actually find yourself smuggling alcohol into your room. Like people did it all the time. I think they're slowly moving their way to a wet campus, which I don't know if that's necessarily what they should do. There's almost something to be said about not necessarily going against the rules, but like when you do have things you're not supposed to do, you then do have to be a little more careful about how you're doing the things that you're doing and have to be a little more aware of yourself, especially in this culture that we live in right now, where I'm going on a tangent here, but we live in a society that's based on Puritan values, right? That comes from Puritan New England, where like you could only do so many things. And that concept of taboo has continued within our society. There are only so many things that you are allowed to do. It is very like controlling, one could say. And the more you tell people what not to do, the more of course they're like, I really want to go do that now. I haven't ever done that before. I'd really like to try that. And the same is true, almost more specifically true for young people because the more you say you can't do that, the more they're like, I really want you now. Whereas if it's like a controlled like allowed thing, but we can get on that topic all day long, like how they do it in Europe, how they've got different dependency programs in different European nations actually have less addictions because it's not illegal and they have a way of dealing with it. They treat it more like a disease rather than an addiction. It's something that a person's dealing with rather than something that they're not supposed to do and they should know better. Was it Ohio State where you went? I didn't go to Ohio State, but I grew up next to Ohio State, which if there are any Ohio people watching, I apologize, but those OSU fans, if you live next to them, when they lose or win a home game, I'm sorry, I don't like being around y'all. No, I didn't like football for the longest time because I grew up next to those people. They riot and now the rest of the world knows, or at least Vermont. Do you think they did a similar thing when prohibition reared its head there? I don't know if there was any smuggling of alcohol that happened. I know the Great Lakes were always a venue for that, but did it go westward that much or was it...? I feel like it kind of went everywhere. I guess I'm not a... Are there stories of it in Ohio that you heard as a child? When I was growing up, Disappearances was like a bedtime story. Oh, yeah? Yeah, my father would read it to us. Oh, cool. And so I always knew that this was part of Vermont history and that it was dangerous and that it was forbidden. People would do it anyway, but it was for money, for survival. That was the standard excuse. And I wonder, do you feel that the play dealt with that in a realistic way from a Vermont perspective? Yes, your farm is struggling. Oh, yeah. Maybe there isn't enough business education in the community so people can sell their potatoes instead of feeding them to their cows. You know what I mean? Make their own gin. Sure. You know what I mean? There's some interesting questions that the story sort of outlines. Oh, no. It's definitely one of those things that they do because of money. Like even the character who, when he was younger, did do a lot of moonshining and a lot of drinking. What is moonshining? Distilling, right? Distilling illegally and then also transporting it from point A to point B. I believe the moonshine itself is more from the carrying perspective. Get under the light of the moon. I'm pretty sure is where that term came from rather than the actual distilling of it. But of course, because it's illegal, they're making it stronger because you're only going to get so much.  Right. Did you ever read The Education of Little Tree? No. That has fabulous indigenous moonshine story in it. Oh, wow. And it's older as well. It's probably from that era of the 1920s to the 1930s and being poor and smuggling and trying to do these things very secretly in the woods at night. It's very interesting. I think it's a lot more widespread than history tells us. Did you ever find other examples, Bill, that talked about prohibition or about the struggles of getting alcohol around? Well, I know. It was a major battle and it was prohibition, but then there was a heated argument as to whether it should be repealed or not. So the prohibition is one part and then the repeal of prohibition was another story. Yeah. And was that something that you were able to follow a little bit? Well, I wasn't around at that time to show that, but I'm sure it was very much part of the culture in the United States. So what about the audiences in sports? Were they more unruly? What do you think about the audience of sports audiences in Ohio? The only audience for sports that I can speak to is definitely OSU. And I understand there's a lot of, because it has a lot to do with pride and a lot of like hometown pride, because it really only happened when it was home games, when they played in the OSU stadium. And it did not matter. We nor lose. Flip a car, set something on fire. I'm sure that in their eyes they were looking at it as a celebration. Unfortunately, more often than not, it gets out of hand to a violent degree. Because of the alcohol, right? Because of the alcohol, yeah. But also, but like not just the alcohol. Like if it were just the alcohol, it's also just, there's something to be said about that young alcohol-fueled, adrenaline-inspired like energy of just seeing like, Martin Martin, and at the exact same time, because that's winning, but then losing, it's like, I'm so mad, we just lost. And I have gotten like for some reason, maybe because I grew up next to this and I wasn't a big fan of football or one could say sports, like I just didn't necessarily understand how sports happened and where it came from, like why someone could get so invested in a team that heavily, I kind of like stepped back. But I've seen it with my friends. I've seen it with other sports teams. Who really loves the Detroit Tigers. And I've got another friend who really likes the Detroit Lions. Like I like sports and I get it now, having been able to step away from it. I can see why a person enjoys it. I haven't quite understood how a person can get that fanatically invested. But yeah, I don't know why necessarily, other than it's a cultural thing, but then it's also a cultural thing to drink to excess at a young age. Like we have gotten to a point where in college that's kind of what you do. And that leads to a whole other host of different things. And that goes back to the whole taboo thing, like you don't drink until you're of age. And because a lot of people do end up going to college while they're underage, end up doing it. And because it's considered an acceptable thing in college, that's where all these things kind of come to a head. So, I don't know, there's a lot of, the prohibition has part to do with it, but I think part of it is just our ability as a society to deal with alcohol and be able to say what's enough and be able to say what's a good time to learn it. Because the more you tell a child, no. And some people just say, yeah, okay, no. But I would say more often than not, you're going to get someone who's going to be like, they're keeping something from me and I got to know what it is. Well, it was interesting in the Bonhomme story because he had been sober since the day his child was born. And so his son was now helping him with this specific task and the way that you played the character was really beautiful because you would just amp up that energy, just a hair, just every scene, just a little bit. And so then by the end, even though you were drinking in pain, right? I never drank in the show. You didn't? No. I guess I thought that at the end, like on the last leg, maybe you had taken. A lot of drinks were passed around in the play. A lot of people took sips from imaginary alcohol. But Bonhomme never did. Never did. That's one of the lines he has in the final scenes is like, I never took a sip, not a single sip. Well, I was just going to say, it's interesting how that alcoholic energy and thrive for adventure followed you through the story in this very, like not only were you chasing the money, but the alcohol was chasing you. Oh, totally.  It was this kind of thing. Yeah. It was really, really well played, I thought. And a very good example of maybe what happens, like you're saying, when a person goes to college or gets involved in sports or something that's bigger than themselves, that they have no control within, but they have this small interest that they can pursue about it and maybe come ahead. What were you going to say, Bill? What we were talking about earlier about it, and probably most of it is in our country, but if you want to go to see some really games, go to other countries and see how really those soccer games are. Oh, yeah. That's true. I'm not saying there's much difference. We just put more importance on football, whereas they put more importance on football. Soccer. But soccer. But ours is American football versus football, you know. But yeah, I think it's just as unruly. Rugby can be the exact same way. I definitely get that. You ever play the game? No. I played soccer back in middle school, and occasionally just for fun, but not that often. But no, I never played rugby. So can I just ask, do you feel that there's a message for today or like some part of the story that's relevant to today's shenanigans with politics or economics of sort of broad sense that carries through? I do. I'm not... It was something that it took me a minute to find relevance to.  There's a lot of things that are going on today that it kind of doesn't have, unfortunately. But it does have... It has an interesting message. It has...  Sorry for ruining it for people who haven't seen it. You can turn off now. But it's basically one of those things. It's like you watch this guy just have the most optimism without knowing what he's doing, but wanting to go back to a time when he knew what he was doing, when things made more sense to him, and he's trying to go back to that. And as he's doing it, he slowly just destroys everything around him. He doesn't know how to run his farm. He doesn't know how to... One of the main things that every farm around him is doing is sugaring maples. And he cut his down so that he could buy hay to feed cows for the last season. And now he doesn't have maples, and he doesn't have hay for the cows for this season. So you basically start out... His entire family and farm is at a disadvantage. And they even at the very beginning of the play go into how well respected a group of people they were back when his great-grandfather and his great-great-grandfather were in charge of everything. And now they're just this slowly decrepiting farm. And he keeps trying to go back to the time as when they were making money, back when things were really good, when he understood what he was doing. And as they continue on the adventure, it is fun.  You just see the slow decline, and I think it does have an interesting tail to it and one that is necessary. I think it's just it's also... There are other things that are also going on in today's world with minorities and women and things that it could speak to maybe a little more, but the story is also not about that. I just think that there are also other stories that can involve those things more, that part of me wishes that this also did. The female characters in it are quite strong. I mean, that part is very nice to see. The women really have no sense of loss or not sense of loss, but no sense of fear of loss. They have the fear of loss, but they're not looking at it. They are strong female characters. I feel like to exist back in that time, as well as today. But when there are even less rights for women, you have to be a strong person to exist in there and make a living on a farm. But, yeah, Christine and Lara, who are female actresses, they're very good. They're great on stage. Well, drinking was... Women in the first instance took the lead in its opposition to liquor because it had a way of breaking up the home. And so then the whole question of passing the law to outlaw it, and then the repeal of liquor as a fight in the 1930s was until the 1930s that liquor was unlawful. And in the 1930s it became legal to drink. Right. I mean, that part definitely resonates in the play because Lara, who plays my character's wife, I guess I didn't need to say her name, but the character itself is telling me not to drink anymore. Her character was the reason that he stopped drinking in the first place. She gave him the ultimatum. Do it. You've got a kid now. It's us or the whiskey. Choose it. Yeah. So it looks like our time is about up. Are there any other pieces that you guys want to add? Thoughts, details, secrets. Love each other. The only thing I would add is that drinking was a women's issue and a homebreaker. And if anyone took the lead on drinking it was the women of this country. Yeah, yeah. That's true. And part of it was because I think it just became obvious that people couldn't control themselves while drinking. It's one of those things that really does require a large amount of self-control that when you're doing it you need to know what's too much. And there are people who have fun and drink a fair amount and whatnot, but then there are people who drink too excess. That is not uncommon in a lot of places. I was looking up Finland the other day because they've got so many things that are just really, really great about that country. Their education is through the roof. They're all constantly scoring high. But one of the biggest problems they have is alcoholism. And you'd think with people who know better and also live a peaceful life that that wouldn't be, but that is not the case. So is there any control on drinking in your college since you went to? Oh, yeah. We were a dry campus. We were not supposed to be drinking. I didn't drink until I turned 21. I turned 21 right before my sophomore year of college. So that happened.   Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Good job. Enjoy your play very much. Thank you very much. Leon Axt. Thank you. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you.