From New York City, where the American stage begins, here is another program with a cast ring Leon Janney as the narrator. Public service time has been made available by this station for your Army and your Air Force to bring you this story as proudly we hail the United States Air Force. Our story is entitled, Dry Run. This is a story of the strategic air command, one of the mighty arms of the United States Air Force. Our first act curtain will rise in just a moment after this important message. Can you qualify to wear the silver wings of a pilot in the United States Air Force and fly the speedy jets? If you have two or more years of college training and are between the ages of 19 and 26 and a half and are otherwise qualified, a visit to your nearest United States Army and United States Air Force Recruiting Station will start you on your way to your future in flight. The city sprawled along the coastal plain a disjointed hydro-like mass of homes, buildings and factories. One blackened irregular lip of it rested on the wide river's edge and here the ships made their way in from the sea to take on our disgorged cargo. It was a big city, an important one, where at three o'clock in the morning the majority of its two million inhabitants slept in peace and tranquility. Have you been one of the few still awake? You might have heard this sound and wondered. You might have stopped where you were and looked up into the inky darkness, listening, thinking. Those babies sure sound like they're up there, hope they're ours, wonder where they come from. To find the answer to that question you'd have to travel westward 1500 miles and go back in time 12 hours to a telephone call. Oh yes he's here, just a minute I'll call him. Face I think. Here. Hello. Right. Okay right away. You've got to go. That's what the man said. Don't they even give you Sunday off? Mrs. Hunter haven't you learned in this business all days of the same? Well I think there ought to be a law. Sell our sickle-headed pals and their idea and who knows I might even get Saturday off too. Well why don't I tell Susie when she wakes up, you promise to take her swimming. Tell her daddy had to go on a trip and that he'd be back. I'll tell Susie when she wakes up. You promise to take her swimming. Tell her daddy had to go on a trip and that he'd be back. As soon as he can. As a man named Dan Hunter your Sunday afternoon has been suddenly interrupted by a telephone call. 20 minutes later you pull up before a formidable looking gate and before your own and have gone through the routine a thousand times you still must produce identification. Identification which is checked carefully and returned with a snappy salute. Beyond the gate you've entered a different world. A place that is all business and no foolishness. A place for highly trained privy man goes armed. Even the cooks. Here every building is guarded, every installation watched. Here security is so tight not even red ink could leak in. And the reason for such constant and thorough precaution is found in the three letter word s a c sac strategic air command. Sac the long range punch in the fist of the United States Air Force a fist that's ready to strike at a moment's notice any time of the day. And then as you leave the buildings behind you come upon the lethal strength of the fist and the sight of it hits you as it always does right where you live. A group of them rest in an orderly line and their bigness is something that dwarfs everything in range of your eye. You don't think of them as monsters for there is a sharp wonderful grace and awe inspiring beauty to their clean glittering lines. They're big. B-36 is the biggest bombers in all creation. Wing length 230 feet. Bomb load 10,000 pounds. Range 10,000 miles. 42,000 horsepower. Speed over 400 miles per hour. A few statistics can't paint a proper picture. And once you've seen a B-36 stood under its bomb bay into which three freight cars could be fitted. You know all the statistics in the world could never describe the sight of her. A giant with wings is what she is.  Hi, Joe. Hi, Dan. And here we're going to take a little trip. I guess so. How is she? The ground crew's been swarming all over us since early this morning. They find any burn spots on the blades of the number two jet? I think they did. The crew chief has a report on it. The blades have been replaced. Good. Where's the gang? They just took off at the briefing room. Everybody present and counted for her? Yep. Okay, let's go. All right, gentlemen. Give me your attention, please. Your attention, please. Your target for tonight is right here. A city you're all familiar with. You'll recall that last month when you destroyed it, your route was along this path to the target and then back by way of this course. Now, your flight tonight will follow an entirely different plan. Something on this order. As you can see, you'll be over water for approximately half of it coming in from the east. We'll get specific in a moment. If you weren't Dan Hunter, if you were just a stranger who happened in on the briefing office's lecture and knew nothing about the circumstances which governed it, you might very well get the impression that a war was on that this was the real thing and not just a dry run. But as Dan Hunter, the members of his crew or any of his squadron mates, you'd know this is a simulated mission. Routine in the sense that you have been and will continue to go on many such missions. Simulated in the sense that the city you bombed tonight will never know the fury of your attack. But real in every other respect. Real in the flight you will make, the distance you will confront you to and from the target. Consider this fact alone. A B-36 is the most complicated airplane ever built, ever flown. Within its massive frame are contained, among other things, 27 miles of electrical wiring, 72 electrical meters, 2,000 electronic tubes and a mile and a half of control cables. The air that blows through its de-icing system would heat 120 five-room houses. Before takeoff, a B-36 crew must check more than 600 different items. As Dan Hunter, plane commander of a B-36, you and your crew of 14 spend a good hour and a half checking the finer points of your flying dreadnought. Each man is responsible for a particular group of items. In some matter of teamwork, you go over her with a fine-toothed comb from nose to tail. Nothing is left to chance. You don't take chances with $5 million worth of airplane. I'm honest, sergeant. They take out okay, Captain. Now they look out there, Tinker. Raring to go, sir. Captain, the crew assume you take off positions. You scanners keep on your toes when we taxi out. Give the tower a call, Joe. Air Force 4982, the tower. Air Force 4982, the tower over. Tower to Air Force 4982, go ahead. Plane checked out and ready for taxi instructions, over. Air Force 4982, you're cleared to taxi on strip four. Takeoff is runway six. Wind is from the east, northeast at 12. Metametric pressure, 9.94. Call us when you're ready to take off, over. Roger, tower out. You don't taxi a B-36 the way you taxi the ordinary bomber. The same principle is involved, of course. You, as the pilot, are at the controls. You use your feet, your hands, and your eyes accordingly. But from where you sit, you can't see the engines and you can't see the wheels. That's why in the rear compartment, backed by the tail, two of your crewmen act as scanners, watching the behavior of the engines, watching the wheels, and reporting by interphone accordingly.  The five of you guide this massive thing of flight out to the runway on which you will take off. Colonel, 4892 is on runway six. They've asked for clearance to take off. That's Hunter, isn't it? Yes, sir. Hunter, this is Colonel Grindley. It is weather reports indicate you'll be bucking strong headwinds on your approach. The navigators will have to be on their toes. You'll be over the sea a good bit of the time. Right, Colonel. I'll pass it on. Remember, you're flying a lone mission. We know the main flight will be intercepted. You can sneak through, the mission will be that much more of a success. Good luck, Captain. Oh, Grindley gets me. Remember, Captain, you're flying a lone mission. He can't help being cautious, Joe. Kind of serious business to him. Oh, it is to me, too, but... Well, then what do you say we get down to the serious business of taking this baby up into the air? Captain, the crew. If you were to stand in the tower looking out with Colonel Grindley, who takes nothing for granted and believes that a good pilot can never be good enough, you'd find watching the takeoff of a B-36 an awesome and beautiful sight. From your vantage point, you'd see this gigantic creation of metal and thunderous power swing slowly off the taxi strip onto the long, wide concrete pathway to flight. You'd hear its total of ten engines, four of them jet, assert their incredible strength in a steadily-mounting roar. You'd see the result of their drive as this Titan of the Skies gathers speed quickly, racing ever faster down the runway with the sun's rays dancing brightly off her stretching wings. If you watched, one part of your mind might ask, how is it possible for men to build and control anything as big as this? And then suddenly, almost in disbelief, you'd see her lift from the ground, the landing gear like a living thing tucking its great talons into place. You'd hear the sound of her voice change from a roar of defiance to one of satisfied contentment as she mounted upward into the immensity of the afternoon sky. You'd watch her on her way, knowing before she came to roost again, she'd span ten thousand miles of trackless space. You'd know too that as a thing of flight, her beauty was majestic and overwhelming. But as a weapon of destruction, she was terrible and unmatched. Leon Jenny as the narrator in the Proudly We Hail production, Dry Run will return in just a moment for the second act. Here's an important word today There's a future in flight. Yes, for you young men between the ages of nineteen and twenty-six and a half who have completed two or more years of college and are otherwise qualified, there's an excellent opportunity for a great career in your expanding air force. You can secure an important job as a pilot, navigator, radar observer, or flight engineer, and fly the mighty aircraft of this jet age. Remember, there's a future in flight. Visit your United States Army and United States Air Force Recruiting Station for details today. You are listening to Proudly We Hail and now we present the second act of Dry Run. At nearly eight miles above the earth, the sky above you is dark, yet luminous blue. There's a kind of burning brilliance in it that conceals its sixty below zero temperament. Here, should your winged world spring a leak in its pressurized frame, you and your crew would have no more than twelve seconds in which to clamp on oxygen masks. Far below you, the elements have been weaving a carpeting of white over the land. As far as your eye can see, it has been tucked firmly into the horizon and is now being pulled up under and behind you. And suddenly the earth is completely hidden from your view and you bore on through the limbo of space where quickly shifting light patterns encourage strange thoughts in your mind. Could it be there is no land below the clouds? Suppose it's all a dream and we're but voyagers here in this emptiness forever. Take over, Joe.  Yes, sir. What do I do if an engine drops off? A lot and pick it up. Seems like a reasonable answer.  Try to keep it flying upside up, will you? For you, sir, I shall endeavor to do my utmost. Oh, it's the rich. You leave the front office in the hands of your capable co-pilot and move on back to where your chief flight engineer and his assistants carefully watch and closely monitor the surging heartbeat of the ship. Here, before panels whose rows of dials tell a clear and constant story, they feel the pulse, watch the blood pressure and converse about their charge like doctors discussing an important case. We can lean out number five just a bit more. I think... Oh, hi, Dan. Hi. How are you behaving, Jeff? You want to make a statement, Sarge? They'll do come. Which means when translated, they're purring like so many kittens. Joe said the head temperatures on the number four port engine ran pretty high on takeoff. Well, she's the new one just put in last week. Bound around a little high until she's broken in. I thought that was probably it. She seemed to get off the ground pretty smoothly.  Where are we? About halfway across the Gulf of Mexico. We're indicating better than 400. Pretty good time, huh? Got a good tailwind. We'll pay for it when we start back in. You leave the engineers to their work and move on to where the navigator on duty pours over his charts, figuring wind and speed and drift. Taking into consideration the magnetic variation, the compass deviation, the rotation of the Earth, he magically computes bearings out of what seems like thin air and at a moment's notice tells you exactly where you are in relation to where you've been and where you're going. What do you say, Lee? Hi, boss. How far are we from somewhere? Well, if my calculations are correct, we should be landing on the planet Mars in another hour. I thought it was Venus you were taking it still. Would be nicer, wouldn't it? Well, here's where we are now. We'll be over the keys in 12 minutes. Have we got a direct tailwind? Oh, wind's pretty near due west. We'll be heading north like this in a little more than two and a half hours. Coming back's when we'll really be bucking it. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if we ran into some weather on the run-in. Probably hit it right over the target. Probably. When Zach relieves me, I'll bring you and Joe a cup of coffee and an old bone to chew on. For which we shall thank you, one and all. You carry two bombardiers and two radio operators. You check things with them, and then you take an 85-foot journey on a miniature railway past the Bombay to the rear compartment of the ship. Here you find the remainder of your crew, the scanners, who are responsible for the array of 20-millimeter cannons that can spit lethal poison down the throats of audacious interceptors. Here comes 802 Express. Right on time, ticker. Need a hand, Captain? No, thanks. Nothing like a little exercise on a cold, windy day. How are things, man? Oh, everything's under control, Captain. Think they might send a few jets up after us? Well, theoretically, we won't be over-enemy territory until we start in for the coast. You can inspect them any time after that. We'll be coming in alone after the main attack, trying to catch them napping. Clever aren't we, sir? Ask me that after we've made our run.  It's simple.   Navigator to pilot. Yes, Lee. Turn to a heading of 3, 4, 5 degrees. 3, 4, 5 it is. Left that cloud layer behind. Who made it coming back? Sure, a lot of water down there. About as much as there is sky up here. I'll take up here by just as well. 3, 4, 5 degrees on the bottom. Now flying on a northerly heading with the crenellated surface of the sea reaching out to touch the sky on all horizons, you become witness to a symphony in time and mood and color. From a ringside seat some 40,000 feet up you watch the sun reluctantly lose its supremacy and sink helplessly into a purplish haze that rings the western rim of the earth. You watch its rays spill out across the sea like so many shimmering golden tentacles searching for a grip hold and finding none slipping defeatedly away. You watch their counterparts thrust skyward in a fan-like reach that yields them nothing but bathes the surrounding area in a reddish profusion and then it too is silently and irrevocably suffused and drained away. While this drama unfolds to the west an all-engulfing darkness is racing in from the east a malignant snuffer of light it sweeps to the dome of the sky and spills hungrily down the western perimeter driving the final lingering vestiges of daylight before it. Within the cockpit the luminous instrument panel offers its ghostly yet friendly comfort. Night has fallen and you fly on a trespasser in its dark kingdom. Want me to spell you for a while? She's all yours. You should be heading in soon. Looks like we've got a good dark night for it. The radar doesn't care how dark it is. Never get in the pilot. What say, Lee? Time to make a left turn. We're heading as 260 degrees. Line her up on 260, Joe, right? Captain the crew, everybody get a listen. We're starting in. As of right now we're over enemy territory. We're about four hours away from our target. As soon as their radar picks us up they'll be after us. We've got some top cover that may help a little. You radar men, don't be afraid to sing out no matter what you pick up on your screens. Everybody keep a weather eye and stay off the intercom unless it's absolutely necessary. Taking into account the force of the headwind which you now buck you are moving through the night at better than six miles a minute. Like a knife cutting through the foals of space you rapidly whittle away the distance to the target. It's not likely the fighters will swarm up to find you for a time yet. Still in this business you take nothing for granted. Ever. An hour slips away. Another. And then a question arises to plague you. Your copilot voices it. Then at this altitude shouldn't we be seeing some lights from the mainland? Yeah, we should see reflections on the horizon. The only reason I can think of why we're not must be a storm. Radio operator to the pilot. What do you got Sergeant? Just picked up a report from a ship 100 miles off Cape Heteros. They report a bad gale blowing. At the first report you've heard on it? Yes sir. They said it came up suddenly. See if you can pick up something from the mainland. Lee, what do you think? That's the weather I said we might run into. Shouldn't bother us up here though. You hope. Sam, looks like you may do your bombing through the cloud cover again. After that the routine of the flight vanishes and things begin happening fast. The interceptors are not asleep. They're not caught off guard. Their radar ceaselessly probing has found you. Jet's coming up fast. A whole flock of them. The crew are going down into the storm. Hold on. The storm doesn't seem to bother those babies very much. It won't help their rain, Mini. Two of them coming in at four o'clock. Navigator to pilot. We'll be breaking out of this stuff in another 10 to 15 minutes. Brightly, pilot to crew. We're gonna grab some altitude. I'm reaching for the stars trying to rid yourself of the angry swarm that follows you. You wonder, were your cannons loaded with more than film? How many of them you'd have sent spinning down into oblivion? You wonder, too, were their guns armed? Could they have destroyed you? Later the aggregate of film will paint a clear enough picture. Its effect serving as a lesson and nothing more final. We lost them. Probably low on fuel. They were with us for quite a while. Yeah. And we were supposed to sneak through. In one sense I'm not sorry we didn't. Suppose we'd meant this. Navigator to pilot. We're 10 minutes due east of the target. And then five minutes. And then suddenly the cloud cover is gone, ripped away in tatters and rags and far below the lights of the city lay. Naked. Defenseless. The Bombay opens. The Bombadier has the ship. And then his voice echoes matter-of-factly in your ear. Bombs away. Down there the lights will continue to shine. The city sleeps on in peaceful unknowing. You've made another dry run. Now it's time to find your way home. How about a kiss for a long last time?  And feed me and cook me a bed. Where's my girl? Still asleep. Oh wonderful. Sit there. Golf will be ready in a minute. Could you have a long trip? Well. You might put it that way. The proudly we hail production, dry run. Now here is an important message. Young man, there's a future in flight. Today's jet age offers unlimited opportunities for young men between the ages of 19 and 26 and a half who have completed two or more years of college and are otherwise qualified. Yes, you can proudly wear the silver wings and fly the mighty aircraft of your ship. Wear the silver wings and fly the mighty aircraft of your United States Air Force when you've completed your training. For full details, visit your nearest United States Army and United States Air Force Recruiting Station today. Remember, the sooner you apply, the sooner you fly. This has been another program on proudly we hail presented transcribed in cooperation with this station by the United States Army and the United States Air Force Recruiting Service. This program featured Leon Jani as narrator. This is Kenneth Bagnardt speaking and inviting you to tune in the same station next week for another interesting story on proudly we hail.


Yna'n meddwl i gael pobl i ni'n gweithio i findos ymlaenio gwahanol yma byddiol, i ni'n gwech ti ddwy scout yn lyta phanwyd, ac yn yr anodol iawn. Rwy'n meddwl anodol eu cerddio yma yn y Cyfnodsaeth Willys mewn hyfodol. Rwyf wedi'i vere'i, ddych chi'n blynedd i ni i ni, ac nid ti'n gweithio i ni'n gweithio i ni. Gweithio'i cerddio i ni, chydyddio i ni', a chynnwch chi i ni. beth sydd wedi'i gweithio i mi ydwch chi ar yr hynod, ac wrth gwrs dwi'n siŵr mewn yll rainbow ac yn amgylchol iawn ac mae'n ddiweddedol i'r mynd i chi fod yn ymdweud. A dyma, ac yn ystannu'r hyn yn ei gweld. Ond mewn eu gwybodaeth i weld hefyd a ddefnyddio'r hyffordd o'r hyffordd. Najdwyd cefnodd, mae'n rhai hwn. Rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'r hyffordd. Mae'n rhaid i'r hyffordd bod mor hyffordd. Mae'n ymdaf am yr amser o disgwyl. ac mae hynna'n mynd i'w ddiogelio'n cyhoeddfa wahanol iawn i gwybwch arrhaidd ac mae nhw'n ei ddysgu'r dyflawn, ac mae hynna'n ddegon nhw yn hydr. Ac mae'n gofal o'r lle yn ôl, mae'r un o'ch neid o'n mynd i gyrddor o'i gynnig yn ei gwybwch mae hyn i gyd. Ac mae'n gwerthu'n i ddim yn gwybwch, ac mae mynd i gyd yn gwybwch yn ddrion ac mae hedderon o mwy dullaf sydd yn ddegon i gyfnwétio ar y celydd yr hyn gyda'r hyn o bobl. Felly, yna pechleh, mae gobyl. Be aglio'r rai. Be'r cry yw hi dim oes. On ddech shopping a fan hyn, y'r 14th oedon. Mae aspectioكونiaeth byddai y constructur, pan lloedb yn gyffiniaid. ein bod yw'r llwc yn y bwysig yw'r bwysig. Mae'n cyfnodi. Mae'n 5 o 5 o'r cynnwys. Fy fyddwch i'n gweithio. Fyn llwyddo'r ymddangos. Mae'n iawn i'n gweithio. Mae'n bwysig. Malkham, yw'r ddweud. Mae'n meddwl, dyma'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i'r adeiladau syniad. Mae'n gweithio i'r adeiladau syniad. Mae'n gweithio i'r adeiladau syniad, mae'n gweithio i'r adeiladau syniad. gyda'r gwheilio i'n gwybodaeth. Gwybod y gweithio yng Nghymru ei ddof yn 5, ac doeddwn ni wedi 14 o 15. Felly rwy'n gyntaf i'w gweithio'r gwahanol. Rwy'n gweithio i'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio i'n gwneud yr oedd Pat, Tony a'n Creg. Ben mae'r ond. Felly mae'n gwneud y gweithredu o'r defnyddio. Rhaeisiau i'n gweithredu, Steve. Yr ystod yma. Rhae, wrth fynd adeiladau mae'n cy Dwi'n credu sufynol rydyn i fynd i'n gwneud ffordd o'r heterogaeth mae'r unedodau esx-boi. Rwy'n cy heels o'r mwyaf. gyda'r perffindor wrthakyf. Yn gyffredin i i? Fy edrych. Rhae, eu hyn. E thus i. Rhaes i sicrhau. Ac mae angen, wrth gwrs, mae'n gwybod i'n gweithio ar gyfer. Rydych chi'n gweithio ni gan yw'rforfynol, mae gweithio am erbyn y enghraifft mwyn dda. Si shakeshio am fawr, ni'n ddwy'r fawr? Mae! Rydych chi ddim yn ddim yn gweithio. Ie, fel yr hyn, mi'n defnyddio. Fawr, ben yn ddwy'r fawr. Fawr yn roi'r fawr? Mae hynny. Fawr, mae'n rhydwch am gwaith i b Alberto Gwyrdwyr, i'r fawr ar gall, Ac efallai nid o'n mynd i'n mynd i'ch yn ymwneud. bob eich gweithio? Dwi wedi bod y pethau yn gweithio. Rwy'n mynd i, iawn i'n ffaselio'r amser o'r Llyfr Mac. Rwy'n ffaselio'n mynd i'n gweithio. Dwi wedi bod yn ymwneud? Rydyn ni'n ddau. Mae'r ddau i'r ddau o'r ddau i'r ddau. Mae'r ddau i'r ddau i'r ddau i'r ddau i'r ddau. When he left apparently house too I don't know protects the bed to, God knows what age five six screwed me it up But in these days didn't know today all these kids and they they put label on them like they got ADHD or late go OC D. They god knows whatever everywhere where it was I worship my daddy left when husband and screwed my head up we think that was the start of it He was a criminal so i wanted to be a criminal don't tell me what he used to of this and made us wanna bания criminal to impress my dad that was what was all about me my me A'r rhaid i'r gweld? Rhaid agor. I was ill when I was 10, I had leukemia when I was 11. I had testicular cancer, so I missed a lot of school. I had a wig that looked like a wig, I had a bald head because of all the treatment I had. This isn't a sub-story, this is me. I was just ill and so caused me a lot of problems at school, I was obviously the smallest. Mae'n gweithio eitwch i'r llfa diogel a chyfrifio arall i'n ei bywyd. Efallai rhai nosaltres maen nhw i chi, gallwch chi'n gweithio'r llfa wlad yn ei bitau, er oedd yn ychynid yn ei ddeithas. Ac rwyf adeiladwydol i gael. Wrth gwrs rydyn ni'n gweithio yng nghydfarchiad, a rwyf wedi bod i'n gweithio'r digon iawn. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'r bwysig, roeddwn i mi ddim ychydig. Rwf wedi bod chi'n hefyd, I gydwyd â wirwch, bydwch gledd, ac sylwch arwyd yn mynd i gydwyd. Rwyf yn rhaid gweld ar y blaen ddechrau ddechrau i gydwyd. Mae'rŵr penafig maen nhw. I gydwyd yn berygiadig, gallwch yn ddechrau. I gydwyd yn oed yn berygiadig a ph Ballwch yn gydwyd. Rwyf yn ddechrau i feddwl, ac mae'r bobl yn rhan gydwyd. I ddim yn ddechrau i hefyd o'r maen nhw. Rwyf yn ddechrau i hefyd yn ddechrau. Mae'r gynllunrhu i gwybod fel senir wedi'i wneud cyfaluful o'n ei wneud o'r gyfalu mor isgwyr. Mae gwyd yn mynd i gyd yn y casg o'r cyd-dymian. Fe yw'r newid o'r mynd wedi'u cyfalu pan rwy'n mynd i gyd bledwch fel ar gyfer, a byddwn ni'n gwneud o'r femnioni gweld maen nhw. Ond â'r cyfalu sydd yma hwn yn mirwg. Mae'r cyfalu yn mynd i gyd. Ond efallai gyrfa dechrau, mae hi di yn mynd i gyd yn mynd i gynllun hwn yn mynd i gyd. How quickly went in the toilet, pulled them all off, pulled a bit of hair off.  You didn't economy swimming salute! And I had to skin it up to the time, but that was it. To me, it was just the life of being embarrassed, and being bullied. But that's, do you know what? It happens all the time, I'm nothing. I knew that all kids get bullied, and picked on. and it's just what kids are. Ma dad, he passed away on 와서 rym ni ore. Efallai eich llawn, y rai iawn i ddaeth i rhad, mae eich ddwyd ei wedi lawer. Nghymru ei gyffredig yn findings ac rwy'r ieddaeth yr adeiladau. Ond hwn i gwyn i'n credu foundation, mae rhaid i'w rhai, mae eich ddaeth i ddaeth i'r ddam ac mae rhaid i'w weld wedi ei ddweud yr adeiladau. A hwn i'n credu rhaid i'w rhai, mae rhaid i ddaeth i ddaeth i ddaeth i ddaeth i tan cyfysgol. Cynnyddu, rydyn nhw i fath o'n ddaeth gyda'i. fe wneud yn y wedi ei ffordd, yn ym yn fynd ymwiyd. Fe wneud yma, rwy'n ei gael iawn, yr iawn i'r beid ymlaen yn ymwiyd yn ei ffordd. Fodolwch i eich myfyrdd ac rwy'n ei wneud. Mae'r newydd iawn na'ch ymwiyd yn maen nhw. Ac os oedd y gwrdd iechyd, yw'r newydd yn ymwiyd. Ymwiyd yn eu ffordd i'w myfyrdd. Dydyn ni'n myffwrdd, mae chi'n cael ei bod ydy'r corddersol, mae ddim i'i siw peth. Mae'r 10 oed o'r 11 oed o'r uchol, dwi ddyn nhw, dwi'n ddim yn gwybod. Felly mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud? Mae'n ddechrau, dwi'n gwybod, lawer a gwybod. Felly mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud, dwi'n ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud eich bod yn y dweud. Mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Yn ni'n gwybod, rydyn ni'n byw yn ynnig. Ond ydych chi'n stwybaeth sydd wedi gweld yna ein gymaint fel sydd yna, roedd gennym technol, nad ydych chi'n gweithio, mae yw'r gweithio, sy'n neud amddangos, mae rhan o'n gwybod. Ond mae'r gweithio, mae'n writ o'r gweithio, maen nhw'n gwneud efallai i'r glen oheroid, fel yna gwaith gwybod, efallai efallai efallai eu hunain. Rydych i mi''r gwaith oheraidd. Mae'n gweithio. Ieithasrwydd wedi'r gweithio ychydigrydu sydd wedi'n gallu y roi. felly felly ond i chi'n gwneud eich hwn fel 16 oes gan ond y gallwn eich meddwl i 16, 15 oes yn ysgrifennu. Felly siwr yn yr ysgrifennu. Yn ei wneud eich meddwl. Wel, aethno'n meddwl i chi'n meddwl, fel nid oeth ynmynd i chi morfynion PhD yma – gofyn i'n meddwl 11 doedd yn gwyrddol a gallwn wedi i'r testigol. Felly Beth rhani yn meddwl i'r meddwl i chi'n meddwl i chi'n meddwl i chi'n meddwl â dros. nhw. Ewch, mae'r ddechawch fel gofynau a'r ddechawch gyda hwnnw. Felly, mae'r ddechawch gyda hwnnw ymlaen. Felly efallai'r ddweud hynny, a dwi'n amdano i'r ddull yn fawr. Lleidio hefyd, felly'r cywlai'r gwaith i eich ganiaethau. Lleidio hefyd mwy ar ei ddechawch. Felly mae'r ddweud yn panig. Yn 19, rydw i'r ddweud, ac rydw i'r ddweud, gan ymgylched, a rydw i'r ddweud yn 19.  Is that when you started growing I saw what I hate for people to where it is to just start standing up for yourself?  Seem you were in hospital on that Steve did you see a lot of other kids passing away who you've become friends with? I remember one morning what was it again I was next to a kid called Barnaby this isn't how can I explain it at that age you don't understand I didn't understand death right so one morning I know Barnaby had gone in the night and the next day Raymond who was at the bed over the over the wall on the other side two kids either side of me both went in two days but you don't understand I didn't understand it maybe other children of 11 and 12 do but I was 11 or 12 and I didn't understand that they'd died yeah they've died okay but it wasn't you know like now you've got a different idea and a different opinion of kids dying it's bad isn't it it's terrible it's a shame I haven't got any children and quite enough kids because I tested the cancer but um I can't understand you couldn't understand it then all I know lots of I've seen my dad to become kingdom you know like cold towards death like it doesn't even faze you because you were so used to seeing it and the pain that you become very cold I can't answer that I can't say I was 11 or 12 I was no young kid what was it when you first got a jail at nine was that the first time you'd been in prison when I was 18 yeah what was that for uh robbery and burglaries I used to do I've never done houses I never used to do houses if they were built and they were showrooms so I'd break into the show house still essentially in still the bathroom in the kitchen but I used to burglar shops offices factories I know it's wrong but I did it I just wanted money once I'd be like my dad um and then I went to go out and play pool one night so I got a knife went up and robbed the look went up and tried to rob the local shot went in the shop with cut the sleeve off of one of my jumpers cut all his own eye holes in it excuse me went up the local shop um went in the shop with a knife said to the woman open the till she run to one other end so I run down and I've heard a shouting whatever her husband's name was whether I heard the dog or not I don't know she run to one into the shop so I chased her again open the till open the till she run back I chased back until in end I just panicked and run off police come around the house about around my mum's about two hours later and when I was going out the door I was pushing this I used to collect knives love knives love them and I had a big hunting knife I was putting up my sleeve to carry up the road and as I walked in my dad's as I walked out my dad's walking in and he went where you going with that I said I'm going to sell it dad so apparently he's walked in and said to my mum he's mad walking around the knife he's going to end up in trouble so when the police came around a couple of hours later they said oh we're nicking in for son so I said my mum went what you want about he's done well he's stuck to his curfew and they and she said oh well look however long ago somebody tried to rob the shop up the road with big knife and she went oh he did go out about then with a knife and I was upstairs at that time with the old bill so he wanted to see my knife collection and I heard it the cop has heard it I looked at him and well I hope it was it and he said what wasn't I said trying to rob the shop oh you admit it yeah what's the point of denying it so got 27 months mate good old mum so she never realised that she's stuck in when did your dad come back into your life at that time yeah I've seen my dad now then he's come and visit me Nick so what was your dad's past like he's a criminal robberies uh he told me he'd done a robbery when he was younger he didn't get banged up after he got banged up I don't want to say because um he's dead aren't he um yeah he got banged up out in Australia he got nicked out in Australia he was just a criminal when he was younger in and out of prison when he was a kid he went first time I went in he was eight young boy man yeah pro school DC a lot of yourself and your dad I do I worshiped him he's my world and I hurt him I let him down and still live with it with what just things that I done things I shouldn't have done and um yeah personal things yeah a lot of regret then towards that sorry a lot of regret yeah regret and guilt how did your mum act when you went to prison my real mum yeah um I don't think she was happy yeah high school's not a problem she's getting all built like coming around at regular not regular times quite often to nick me for whatever did you ever get fairy parents Steve from everything you'd went through from a young age did you get what sorry like fairy pay like psychologists to try and oh yeah talk about it did you have that at a young age um first time I did I was I think the first time I had it I was due to go cold one morning for sentencing and the night before when I'm done a vets over because I'll see a load of money in the till my ex-girlfriend had a horse and um we went there and he charged her a fortune to get his horse fixed not it no not fixed whatever give it treatment there's a load of money in the till and I thought sorry if I'm going down I might as well get some money and leave us some money so um no sorry it was a day before I was due to go to court so I'd done the vets over took the cash tin that had some paperwork in it just grabbed the cash tin and somebody turns out there was a nurse on duty there so I and when she came into the where I was when I was trying to find the all the bits and pieces and I was looking for the steroids as well so I used to train and vets whatever steroids you get chance I'll use them for vets and vets steroids you know medical for humans is used on animals yeah yeah yeah um yeah so I was going through getting the steroids the nurse has come in whether she was there already I don't know or whether she'd come in to treat the animals so I just grabbed the cash tin I don't think I grabbed any steroids just grabbed the cash tin grabbed the cash tin got away went home took all the money out of the tin and the rubbish hadn't been that day or whatever it was a morning there was a black sack to be picked up so I threw the crap in the black sack and I thought I think whatever it was the rubbish hadn't been collected so I walked across the road and threw it in a skip well the next morning the builders turned up who skip it was seeing a black bag in the skip pulled it out opened it and there's the papers from the vets so he took it all the way across Swanage so everything swanaged in give it said bro don't throw your rubbish in my skip threw it down on the top they said what you're on about and there they see their papers and some of my papers so the old bill came round again and I was due to go up that next day for sentencing for doing over a garage or trying to do the garage please come round um went I got went to call got reminded sent to whatever some um Dolchester nick um my solicitor came to see me and said obviously there's something wrong with you because you can't get caught yeah yeah exactly did you ever think right okay I keep getting caught here I'm just going to pack it in yeah I've got I didn't get away with one crime honest do you think there was a cry out for help to even not care you didn't care if you got caught as well no I did care did you yeah you just not very good at it then um yeah okay when did you start getting into the like the series stuff what's serious like shootings and stuff when did you when did you know you can't be way to do it I'd I'd or um right hang on let me think yeah right it was not the police knew I had some guns right um so you went from nice then to guns yeah when I was when I was 18 I tried to rob the shop at the top of the road that weren't a good idea so I got 27 months back I always wanted to have a gun I worship McVicar I didn't worship me I love the film McVicar that was a classic film yeah and uh and uh hang on uh yeah project adultery and um Jimmy Boyle in a sense of freedom they were my sort of heroes they were like what I see my dad as a big gangster and I always wanted guns so got some guns um I'm not saying anything else when did they like part come on to your leaf part to it I was in nick in 1990 got done for robbing a garage with a knife um I didn't do it um I got remanded me my mate Malcolm who's now dead he Malcolm and I got done for robbing the garage he was just balls up uh so mountain said to me he said if you take if you go if you take your remand I should get bow it's going to do it haven't you if I know because it's my idea what we my idea was to get rid of some stuff that come from the robbery not that I know where it came from all right totally in the center of the robbery so anyway um stupid thing the stuff from the robbery we decided or I decided we should take it somewhere and dump it anyway where we took it we took it to a private tip not that I knew private tips existed threw it in the river it was a suitcase it was a briefcase full of papers now I thought the briefcase full of papers would sink it didn't float on the top of the river or on top of his puddle wherever it was geysers come round the corner in his bloody JCB or whatever because we're driven on a private road fished it out with his friggin bucket of course they got the number plate of the car um and me my mate Malcolm and his ex who's girlfriend I don't think they were married then got pulled in for it two guys robbed a garage with a knife one had an Irish accent um both mount when I spoke English we were both left handed and a guy had a knife in his right hand so it was nothing honest we had nothing to do with the flipping robbery but I was given the stuff to get rid of somebody paid me some money to get rid of some stuff do you know I think about burning stuff that's what I should have done it I just tried it in a bin and it's funny about your heroes like McVicker and Jimmy Boyle but each of them end up serving lifers as well I think you need to find yourself new heroes Steve so you end up getting done for that as well yeah so I got reminded that was back in December 89 in and then in probably January 90 Pat was in Chelmsford it was part the first you had met anyone before eh Tocara yeah Pat was I met Pat in 1990 um I always wanted to do bodybuilding I was a skinny little rat always got bullied um and you just think somebody with muscles is hard it's not is it you know they're just a bit stronger so I always tried to do I always go down the gym do loads of bench press loads of bench press loads of curls that's all I knew and Pat could see that I was enthusiastic and keen and he sort of gave me some advice and then we sort of had a friendship phone from there well we didn't actually he used to see me um and in in Nick I always used to want to get a job so I'd get more gym so um I put my name down to go on the hot plate to go on the servery and one day the PO principal officer on the wing called me down and he says uh you know your next come down on the servery don't you I went yeah he said well Pat take wants a job yeah and he said well what are you going to do I said well my name's next in it he said yeah I said well I want the job he said what about Pat I said I want the job so anyway I packed I went up to my cell got me um bags went that got packed moved down to the servery cell and Pat's walked in the door and he used to call me nipper then I think he said when he started calling me nipper he went um you know that I wanted this job I went yeah so he's walked in the cell when he shut the door he said I wanted this job this was my job I went no I was next on this I was next on the servery so it's my job he went well all right nipper fine he walked out anyway he got the next job and that's where I sort of friendship formed so he didn't try to bully you or anything I tried to but like I say on my mouth I could never back up my mouth it had torn me to pieces yeah but he wasn't a bully and I still say to this day Pat was a good man till Tony got in his head and changed him and got him on the drugs was it Pat Pat who gave you the name nipper yeah what's that from because I was a lot smaller than him was that yeah he was like six two six probably about six two Pat so everybody would have been small to him basically basically yeah he was he literally the screws used any problems on the wing when we was in Chelmsford the screws will leave it a pat his sort of out what about when you get out what's your leaf leak then um when I got out then I've been in I've been with Pat I was in Chelmsford for 15 months so in that time I was trying friendship yeah well he got he got 10 years for a robbery and um so he got convicted but we was on remind together on the same wing we were sales next door to each other because he got the job on the servery after I got my job um so he got bang that next door and um what happened yeah we just we just trained together um we became good friends good friends and uh so when I got out obviously I was a lot bigger I went from nine stone three I think I was up to twelve stone I done get I got some gear inside some steroids um and I'm putting a lot of weight you only get out people sell steroids kill you well yeah you know um there's a few people who've died of steroids but it's not really through doing loads of steroids it's when bodybuilders they do a thing called diuretics that gets the water out your body increases your kidneys production of your rear which you pee out so your body loses your load of water and it's so you get more definition right um and it just makes you look bigger so you try running a car without watering the radiate of the car or die yeah it sees up well same as people if you do loads and loads of steroids and loads of growth and loads of frigging insulin and loads of diuretics chance are you die but I did steroids because I wanted to improve what I did down the gym I wanted to be bigger I wanted to be stronger um and you only get out of them what you put into them so I did a lot of training my life in there was training like when I got out for many years my life was training um and so I come out I was a lot bigger let's say you think somebody just got muscle you think they're hard nut but my thing was I was bigger so I didn't get bullied people thought I could have backed up my mouth maybe I could maybe I can't but the fact is I was a lot bigger so I didn't get as much bullying that make you more violent because you started putting on a better muscle no I'm not violent I'm not a violent person what about then when part get out did you just two use too much straight away yeah pretty much yeah when I got out in 91 I think it was march 91 because the robbery was up for on the garage got thrown out um the the guy who owned the garage knew me knew I was nothing to do with it but he didn't know it was me when I got nicked if you know what I mean so he heard the names he didn't didn't put the name to the face so Malcolm and I got out of Nick I walked out because I'd done 15 months on remind I've got a three month sentence of hanging stolen goods I got out pat had been sentenced to 10 years for a robbery so I stayed in Pat I just go down and see him take his girlfriend Sarah to see him we stayed in touch um and when he got out in 90 was it 95 I think it was he'd got Sarah pregnant Sarah lived in a little one bedroom flat then I had a big three bedroom flat and I said Pat will come and stay with me so he came stay with me and we we started a life of crime which is great what sort of stuff were you doing then um forged money uh credit cards selling drugs robin drug dealers doing a community of service how was it taxing people did you feel safer with Pat there um I don't know uh you feel pretty safe when you got a gun yeah when did it start going pear shaped then or when did sorry when did Tony come into your life um Pat and I was doing a good Pat had been out one night from what I remember obviously you're going back 20 or years 25 years from what I remember Pat obviously had a key to my place because he was staying with me and he came back one morning uh and he said oh we'd seen this I think what it was Tony and Pat knew of each other but they never had a friendship right so one night Pat had been out wherever he was Tony was and they sort of got talking so Pat's came back in the morning or whenever and he said oh I met Tony he's a good guy blah blah blah he said oh we're going to go out with them we're going to meet up so uh we went up to um from what my memory serves me I might be wrong we went to the epic no I can't remember whatever it was at one point we went to an epic country the epic country club and I'd always wanted to dance can't still can't dance so we've gone to the epic country club me Pat and this a friend of his called Ian and Pat turned around and he said do you want to try a knee I was like oh all right I've done it so I've done a knee um after 20 minutes my feet were sort of half an hour I was at the side of the dance floor and I was on the stage and I was the best dancer in the world I was the best and I loved it and I remember then Tony came in with Colton Colton Leach another hooligan um and this Pat had said to me just you know be normal be sensible but I was on the stage loving it loving it I knew what I was born for then popping ease and dancing so uh that's when I met Tony and Colton and who was that when this I've spoke to Colton he's been on the show I actually rate Colton I think he's an okay guy he thinks he's a good guy um done his thing and I think he's changed his life and he's doing his thing how was that relationship build with yourself and Colton um it was just Colton it doesn't impress me who people are it never has it it never will did you feel as if when you were taking drugs it was like an escape did you feel more alive I did its dance yeah and I'm the best dancer what about how did you how did Tony accept you then um Pat and I still did our criminal sort of things which I don't know how much he told Tony I don't know um from what I remember one of the first times Tony used to inject coke and so did Craig who was Tony's little gopher um Pat and I we were friends and I'm sure we were I know we were right Tony and Craig Craig was Tony's little gopher if Tony wanted to sell some drugs Craig had run it so those two used to do gear they used to inject coke so he was around Tony's it was Tony's or Craig I think it might have been Craig's actually he was around Craig's one night and they did uh they had some coke in a syringe and they injected it and I remember Tony injected Pat and Pat the next morning I just walked out and Pat when Pat came came in the next morning or whatever the morning art um morning day and half later he said I could see the disgust on your face oh yeah so why did you why you got a stick of needling yourself to your eye you you cross a line then I used to do a lot of coke I was a bad coke edge years later but I used to think about it is it a bit of buzz but I never did it I've stuck a needle in me ask for steroids but I've never put a needle in my arms to do drugs you cross a line then yeah I think I've people smort and corking it's not on that I've never seen anybody injecting at myself did you think about trying it because they were doing it no not so in them days I still appeal I still go out do appeal and in them days it was if you wanted appeal it was it was MDMA it was XC nowadays load of rubbish coke load of rubbish oh it's really good coke no it's load rubbish you just pay more for it and you're still crap because there's so much money to be earned in it and people smash it to pieces do you feel as if all that mindset has changed then when they started injecting drugs and getting on to their more classes bigger classes than that doesn't mean set start to change towards yourself um yeah I'll see what you're saying like I said I walked out that night when Tony injected Craig when they when they got the swinges out and did it it just wasn't a bit of me so I left um they became like birds of a feather they were little junkies together I don't know when Pat started doing heroin but from from his postmortem there was heroin in him all right um so they injected coke then Pat Pat and Tony used a lot of coke I would still be doing my pill and Tony gave me some ketamine one night he said try that he said just do a little bit he said when you when you're up on XC just do a bit of that so he give me whatever he gave me say half a gram he said just do a little bit I did half it I became a ball you know big silver balls I was one of them brilliant fantastic if you're on a pill and you do I'm not saying do drugs I'm not glorifying it you know I'm I'm saying everything in moderation once a week I'll go out do me pill have a good dance to me it was great it was also cardio I've asked for good dancing because I used to be right into my training and so he gave me this bit and I'll also become one of the big silver balls spinning it was fantastic and uh that was it so I always do a bit of ketamine uh if you do it when you're down it put you through the flipping floor I did it once when I was normal and I literally left my body it was not a good buzz uh but when you're up it's like having if you got if you're on a pill it's like having 10 pills how we use function and get on jobs and that if yous were getting high I wasn't doing it I was doing it once no them with pattern stuff coming in with you Pat no Tony didn't come with us Tony was nothing to do with that that was mine and Pat's work and in them days we robbed three of drug dealers we sold drugs we did cards all the stuff that was just trying to own a decent living and of course we paid tax to her was there any was there any consequences that are people you were taxing then or were they too scared to do anything um well when we robbed drug dealers we didn't exactly go hi I'm Steven Pat from Southend you know you smothered up you got a gun and that's just what it is it's doggie doggie then work in that world when did you start distance yourself from them were you getting pushed aside or were you trying to yeah um I was more sort of like um like I said they became like birds of a feather they wouldn't do your drugs you know I wanted that if I was doing ecstasy great but if they're injecting gear I ain't nothing to do with me and um I remember Pat came in one or I was in I was cleaning the house once I had the flat and I said Pat lived with me I was cleaning the flat and in my wardrobe there was a plate with some coke on it or whatever there was a coke a straw or rolled up no wherever it was and I just oh crystals it was crack it was he was he was doing crack so it was in my wardrobe so I threw it I washed it down the sink when he came in he's gone nuts I mean hang on they're in my flat in my wardrobe I wonder who gets freaking nits so he went he went bananas excuse me sorry so he read an argument I said bollocks fat uh bollocks I'm not going to swear because I don't like swearing I said bollocks pat sod off you don't like it leave I don't care don't bother me don't bring your crap in the house it wasn't me being a hypocrite I didn't want a load of drugs in the sodding house because if I got nicked I'm the one who's going to go down for it aren't I I got nicked when I was 21 for selling whiz so anyway we started falling out like that and then one day he came home he came back and he said oh he we were sort of losing the friendship and he said to me he said Tony's jealous of our friendship and I'm why I didn't understand what he was saying then but from what I can only gather from looking back on it for years Tony just didn't like me he just didn't like me he he wanted Pat's friendship for himself Pat was a false he was a very powerful man he was very in the old days a lot of people spoke highly of him and I still speak highly of him he was a good friend he was a kind man with a good heart and Tony just obviously see him as another false that he wanted around him bit like he used Colton Colton was around him Colton used to be a false you know Colton could command an army of men like that I don't know what he can command now but what about did you have like abandonment issues when he's not accepting you to be there with her sorry like Tony when they were trying to let push you to the side while you take Pat away from you your friend who you've grew up on I don't think I really say it I really don't think I'll say it but like I say Pat said to me one day Tony's jealous of our friendship I'm just standing on the front step talking to him and he came in and gave me a hug and I was like Pat you know you you you're a friend sort of thing and then like afterwards there's the classic case of I had my girlfriend Louise Tony was with Anna but he used to have this girlfriend called Donna Pat Sarah knows that doesn't really matter to me saying Pat was running prostitutes he'd shag different prostitutes and he'd have a favourite prostitute so one Sunday night after we'd been out or we'd been out the Friday on the Saturday Sunday night I think it was I was laying in bed the phone rings the landline because we didn't have mobiles all the time then obviously and it was Donna Tony's second girlfriend Tony lived with Anna Anna knew about Donna Donna knew about Anna if Tony bought something for Anna he would buy something less meaningful for Donna that was the way he was he thought he was some sort of mafia bloke who had all these different girls so Donna's phoned me up I said oh where's Tony I said well he's at home isn't he probably shagging the ass off Anna by now not being crude but that's just what I said and that's what I meant probably shagging the ass off his girlfriend that's on a Sunday week and half later Pat and I had to go for an ID parade sorry I'm shaking with anger so we had to go for an ID parade because this guy had robbed one of Pat's prostitutes they consider it robbery if they have sex and the guy don't pay them this guy taking their money taking a phone and everything so Pat's teaching me lessons we gone round the guy fell over he's had a couple of times against Pat's fist because he because it was on a first floor flat the people underneath heard the commotion called the police so as we're going down the stairs I've opened the door and there's the old bill they went oh Steve Ellis what are you doing here and then Pat's walked behind they went pat eight and they moved aside so Pat and I walked out so anyway uh out of a long later the police raided Nick's raided my place Nick me and Pat we got charged with I can't remember what it was whatever we had to go on an ID parade so this morning I'm waiting to go on the ID parade Tony's walked in do you want to hear this I've talked this lot yeah yes um Tony's walked in with Pete Cuffey and Craig um and Tony said to me he said uh blah blah blah where's the tool there's a two two revolver I can't remember if it was Pat's or Tony's I won't mind I don't think um so I got it from where it was hide in I had a cupboard under the stairs and um I said here Tony I said it's clean it's loaded be careful with that with his right hand he's whatever hand he put he put hand against my front start banging the gun into my head and he kept going shag my he kept saying fuck but I'm not going to keep saying fuck I'm going to keep saying shag he goes shag my bird up the ass I'm going to show you what this can do and he kept jabbing it in my head and I honestly didn't have a flipping clue what he was referring to I didn't know what was going on all I know is I've got a gun him on that that I know he's loaded and I'm dead it's as simple as that that's what's going to happen I'm going to get shot in the head and I kept thinking I just knew I knew that I wouldn't feel it or see it because the bullet would go for him in brain before I'm dead so he kept banging on my head and he kept going shag my bird up the ass I'm going to show you he then walked me back down the passage down the hall laid me on the bed and I remember thinking I won't see my sisters grow up and I won't be able to say goodbye to my girlfriend that's all I kept thinking um so it went on for however long he was he was nearing over me with a gun in my head and eventually he got off me stood up and I'm laying back on the bed still and he pulled out a meat cleaver and he said your hand or your foot so I thought if you take off my foot I won't be able to chase you if you cut off my hand I can still show you I thought I'm going to kill you I'm going to kill you and that's it so I shut my eyes held out my right held out my right arm and I thought it's going to I'm going to scream I'm going to cry it's going to hurt but I'm going to kill you that's all I kept thinking and I was sitting there on the end of the bed my arm held out thinking I'm going to kill that's all I kept thinking going from my head I don't know how long that went on for when I opened my eyes Tony was looking at me with a meat cleaver raised and he was he was like frothing his eyes were wild so he was obviously at his nut so he's walked out the room so as he's walked out the bedroom I've got up and said to him what the hell have I done what's wrong Tony and he turned around he lifted the meat cleaver and I just do what you've got to do I thought he's going to smack me in the nut with it Pete Cuffey pushed me in the room he said just let him calm down I said what have I done I haven't done anything um anyway they left I went to the I went to the police station for the ID parade the bloke was now convinced it wasn't me and it wasn't Pat so we got that got chucked out I came out Pat I hadn't turned up for the ID parade so I phoned Pat I said and he said you're out of all of you this year that I said what are you on about he said you told Tony's bird that he shags down her up the arse I said I never said that and he said what you called um he said we'll talk to Tony so I phoned Tony and I told him and he said what you called him my girlfriend a liar I went no he said blah blah blah I said look Tony I don't know what you're talking about he said will we come around later and sort it out I said we'll do what you want I won't be there so with that I got in a car drove up to see someone bought a bullet proof bought a hand gun um didn't get a shotgun that day and then uh that night I was too scared to go home so I slept in the car in the morning I went went into my house there's a big back alley that that run the back of the houses in the in the road I live and run that run the back of the houses in the other road and they was all in connecting like a big main artery with little um veins coming off it so I walked in the back door I thought things not right it turns out they've been in nick my stuff and um he's obviously so he was Tony so I phoned him up so I want my stuff and he was laughing so I'm gonna get your tone I'm coming to get you or whatever I said and he went on for a couple of days each night I was scared I went um I'm gonna go home I was scared I knew they were gonna get me it was just a matter of time I thought Tony was gonna get me and Pat and I wasn't talking then I don't know what had happened but anyway one morning I was I was tired of running scared I was scared of running so rather than sleeping the car that night I went in the back door and you know I said about the I lived on the ground floor flat so there was the stairs going up the side there was a cupboard under the stairs so I got the shotgun got my handgun I was in the cupboard under the stairs as soon as I walked in I was going bang bang bang bang that was the intention um at some point in the night I got I was under the stairs I'd had enough I got outstretched sat on the bed and I fell asleep obviously no nothing the first thing I know is the home phone's ringing so I'll pick the phone up in my sleep you know you pick your phone up to do and it's Pat I went Pat Pat what's happening even don't worry nipper it's it's all been a big mistake he says I I've got your staff Tony's really sorry there's been a big mistake we know you didn't do anything blah blah blah whatever so I thought no he's been too nice it's something wrong so yeah so I had a big bureau that I pushed against the front door went into the bathroom I'll splash your water on my face trying to wake up and I thought they're gonna come I'm sure they're gonna come so I run out the back door down the alley cross the cross the road to a Volvo that I'd bought I don't know why I must have grabbed some more shotgun cartridge juice or some more I don't know what I grabbed but I run as I run back across the road I went through a gate shut the wooden gate and heard a screech of tyres so I've looked through the wooden gates it had slacks you know like um just a slack wooden gate and it was Tony or Pat's Porsche they both had a black 9 to 8s so as I've looked through I could see Pat Pat and Tony jump out and Craig follow them I could hear the kicking of the front door because obviously I'd pushed a bureau against the front door and you could hear them kicking it to kick the door open so I'm lighting the alley I've got the shotgun with me I've like loaded it was a six shot or five shot whatever it was I don't know um so I put one in the chamber for right this is it this is it I was going to walk in behind them and just blam to pieces were you scared uh yeah yeah I was scared I was like adrenaline yeah so I thought that's this is it my time so as I've opened the it was a catch on the door catch on the gate sorry I'm moving about the microphone as I open the catch and open the door to go I had the shotgun with me they I see Pat and Tony come running out they looked up and down the road um and uh then they got in the car so obviously as I see them run out I shut the gate didn't have the surprise on them um but I was still looking through it they got in the car drove down the road and then I presume I was still waiting there so I'm sure they drove back up the road I went in I went through the alley in my back door and where the bureau was there was a notepad and it said on it um Nippa what's your problem I'm your friend Pat so I phoned him up he said Nippa where were you I said I'll see you he said what you want about he said I'll see you come to my door you piece whatever I said I said I'm coming for you now Pat and then we had an argument phones hung up and then I was then out hunting for the three of them and how was that then with your friend doing a bit of bird with him um and then becoming enemies because I know you you always speak highly of Pat so how did that affect you did that hurt you I don't know I just know they'd come to get me well how do you know they weren't trying to sort it and if it's just oh yeah right okay yeah that's it yeah sorry yeah the first time when they came to your door in fact left or not do you think that was just being nice to set you up or do you think Pat would phone me and pat yeah so that phone call when they woke me up they said we got to London this morning but we come around and see you this afternoon sorry I forgot to say that right so like I say I'll put the phone down push the bureau against the front door you're at the porch and then you're my front door which I pushed a bureau against my front door um and I thought he's being too nice so when I phoned him and he said I'll see you he said yeah well what's going to go to south end but sorry what's going to go to London this morning but we thought we come around and see you sort it out I went bollocks pat I said you was after me there's no way you kick that door and you come around that quick was you coming around to talk to me so we had an argument in the last thing probably the last word to say to him that day was I'm coming for you as well now pat and then we had this argument and that was it phones were hung up and that was at the start of from now yeah did you try and shoot first was it part yeah it was part because I strive round I had the problems with them and however long later Malcolm my mate was dead he phoned me and my dad up said there's they're going to try and kidnap your sisters um cut the fingers off my dad also my dad had his contacts his people he heard it as well that the parent they were going to cognate my youngest sister sof at the time would have been five and dawn he would have been 14 or 15 now we didn't know which one they was after my other two sisters Lindsay was wherever and Natalie I don't think they'd have gone for Natalie she had a boyfriend I think she was all right so we just because they knew where my dad lived with my my stepmom and my two sisters we assumed it was going to be them so my stepmom got Sophie out of nursery school and then I'd I had a shotgun I didn't have a pump with me I'd I had a shotgun my dad had a shotgun I went to the back gate of the school my dad my stepmom went to the the front gate of the school and my stepmom went and got Dawnie out of school while I was obviously standing on guard at the back of the school my dad was on guard at the front um got the girls out of school got in the car and just drove they went into they went it went into a hotel up near Colchester I followed them up they had sort of like and um so then it just went crazy they they was after my family how was that for you mentally screwed me up be taking drugs on that then no no no to just try to stay sane I used to go out on a weekend and do one peel apart from one night when we was at a party pack an up pack so he Tony gave me a peel which I wasn't even aware of it I just took this peel and I'd blacked out until morning when I came round we was in my flat partying but I wasn't I wasn't in drugs in didn't interest me so what was it what was that the the steps after that when you try to shoot part was that and your intentions to kill part yeah it was my intention to kill them all how was how was that though about being the friendship that you'd just gone straight away as soon as I started threatening your family um I just got my family out of town then then like I'd drive from packs to Tony's to my sisters to my dads to mine to Tony's I just drive around looking for them and one night um as I drove round to I see pack by then we'd done some drunk dealers got a lot of money back at bought place so him and this him and Sarah were moving into this bungalow that he was getting done up so I knew where the bungalow was was obviously so I've drove around I see his car outside the bungalow so I was with my girlfriend at the time and I said I've got to drop you off so I took her back to south end went back to veins your near back and veins near basden had to hang on with me do you want to hear this again yeah Jeremy times told his story so anyway um I walked up I walked I climbed down to the railways walked along the railway track up behind pats bungalow so on the left from the back you had I think it was a dining room in the middle was the bathroom and on the right was the kitchen and the bathroom lights on and you could see pat in there it was massive you couldn't miss him so he was in this frosted glass bathroom having a shave as it turned out um so I got a brick because I wanted to make pat Sarah was there and by then she had um Jordan Pat's son so I threw the brick through the window to make sure that pat was by himself I wanted to shoot pat no one else although I knew it was like to empty the gun into him it's all on the way to do so windows smashed I lifted the gun up in my mind I was pulling the trigger he's running and he screamed so as he's as he's run he's run from I knew it was an L shaped the bathroom so he's run out the door and he's run towards the kitchen so I've run from the bathroom window to the kitchen window I've seen him I've gone pulling the trigger again he's seen me run off because the lights were on the house was all it up he's seen me so he's run back and I thought he was going to run through the hallway and out the front door so I run to the front I run down the side of the house at the front at the side of the house held up the trigger held up the gun I was waiting for him to come out I was going to pull the trigger on him but he didn't all I heard was please please I've been shot I've been shot so that's straight away Sarah was screaming sorry Sarah scared her um so I just run off straight down the um railway lines again got me corn drove off um that was Pat uh a couple of nights later I was hunting going oh he there's loads of stories here right so um in the day a couple of days later I was driving sorry a couple of days later I was driving around once again still looking Pat was in hospital now bullet in his arm it smashed his arm it turns out shame I think I'd sit you're right to hear about the gun in a minute um so there I was driving around from my place to Tony's to my dad's to whatever try and find him and I see Tony and Craig walking up the big alley at the back of my house so I phoned up my dad and I said dad get the shotgun down he I need the shotgun he went what I just get the shotgun so he but he came down with a shotgun by the time he got down so he wouldn't have been in hiding then would he he wouldn't have been in bloody in the hotel see events in my mind are a bit not clear yeah bit how was it then when you try to shoot them when you missed did that make you more fearful or did you think no no i was a problem with the gun you know I said when I put the gun through the window I pulled the trigger that the um I presume you know what guns like the hammer hits the yeah there was something wrong which I didn't know at the time there was something something wrong with the gun it wasn't the hammer hit the percussion cap the hammer hit a bit of metal that was on a pivot that had a nipple on it that hit the percussion cap but the pivot the nipple was worn so when I've gone like that bang bang or thinking I was going bang bang bang and first when I got home after I tried after I shot back the first time the first time pat got shot not the first time I shot pat um two of the bullets on the percussion caps had dents on them so it turns out I'd obviously pulled the trigger three times when I tried shooting through the window um and it was the third bullet that smashed into his arm so anyway my dad got the shotgun down when I walked up the alley I could hear this banging of metal and metal which at the time I didn't know about was them trying to smash the d-lock off my motorbike so I'm walking up I'm hearing this banging metal and metal all of a sudden Tony and Craig's walked walked out from behind my fence and Craig was carrying all my motorbike levers and um two motorbike level sets with helmets so for whatever reason I hit I run behind another fence and I had the handgun in my hand the shotgun I had over me I'm a bit of rope the shotgun was hanging down so um Tony's walked out and he's gone nipper I went fucking nipper lifted up the gun pulled the trigger it didn't go off I'd still had the same gun at the time that had a problem with with the nipple on the thing so I pulled the trigger and it didn't go off so I'm looking at the gun and I've seen Tony he's sort of like crouched down going ah ah ah like that um so he's seen me looking at the gun stood up he went nipper I'm going to get you I went you all right I lifted up the gun pulled the trigger this time the bullet went it fired the bullet went where it went I don't know they've started running I pulled out the pump action and I'm chasing him through the alley trying to put in the trigger but I'm taking the safety off so we've run through this alley they've gone um they're running away from me as I've come out onto the road it was a school there was mums and that well mainly mums collecting their children from school which I didn't even know was there so I put the shotgun back down um turned around and walked back off walked back to where I'd thrown the handgun down picked the handgun up and quickly got back to my car um my dad was parked around the corner as he turns out he see Tony and Craig come running over jumped in their car um they basically they went up basilon hospital where Pat was Sarah had phoned me up Sarah phoned me up later the next day or later that day sorry and said oh Tony walked in the hospital saying oh nipper tried to shoot as nipper tried to do this and that laughing not mentioning he was on the floor cracked himself she said be careful with their planning to get you why did she give you the heads up because pat was a bastard because she's scared of pat yeah yeah she came in and I said he was running prostitute Sarah came round to my place one day pat was in bed with a prostitute so she's walked I said Sarah's here so she's come up to the door I couldn't not answer Sarah's come in um the prostitute wherever her name was I don't know girl let's say the lady girl whatever she was or is hot hidden somewhere other room Sarah's gone back to where she knew pat's bedroom was and she next minute all I've seen is Sarah come running down the hall had a long hall with pat behind a china hit her so I've just jumped in front of pat for what little use it done it delayed him that long that Sarah managed to get away um Sarah's a good girl she's a nice girl did she want them did not as well as I know no but if she hated them that much and I don't think she hated him I don't know I can't speak for Sarah um so do you think pat would have felt if you knew Sarah had phoned you oh she well when she's phoned me she said don't tell patty kill me I met Sarah up at um lakeside and we had a chat and she said basically they're trying to get people to kill you so I think it was that night I would decide to go and kill Tony so I've drove around I had to pump action and I had a handgun with me the same handgun I didn't change it then so I drove Tony lived on Chafford 100 estate biggest state um new houses so I was driving drove around there and I needed a wee because my plan was he had a big front door with big glass in it my plan was to ring the bell as he comes to the door bang bang bang through the glass seems to be a habit of mine doesn't it or it tried to be um so I before I went to shoot him I needed a wee and I'd say it's a big new housing state so I needed a wee so I parked up had a wee in an alleyway next to a house that was being built and there was there was a security guard there which I hadn't seen um as I finished having me wee gone back to the car and he said what you're doing I said I went for a wee mate blah blah blah he said what you're doing around here so I'm going to see a friend of mine who lives in whatever the name of Tony's road was so he said oh he said what you got in the car and I was just thinking shit the shotgun or the handgun I can't remember what it was I think I was worried about the handgun I was showing it was it was on the passenger seat so I jumped in the car and locked the lock the door and he shined his tool chin and he's in his cd again he said what's yeah it was it was the handgun um and he's seen the gun and I said oh it's a starting pistol he went show me I said no I can't show you I can't show you it so I'm trying to start the car oh vovo and it's flooded whatever it was so he's trying to open the doors so the vovo was a vovo mistake he's gone to the back to the boot open the boot and I'm trying to start the car that's flooded so now I put it in gear trying to jump started because it was on a slight decline trying to get its bump start so it wouldn't start it wouldn't start I finally got to the bottom of the hill miraculously it started I've slammed it in reverse as I've slammed it in reverse I had the boot shut and he was running up the hill I was struggling to get up the hill because it was still mud when I got to the top of the hill he was there I drove at him not drove at him intentionally to hurt and get away he's got a big scaffold bar smashed it on tried he smashed it on the screen the screen deep bust um and that was the end of my I just shot off quickly and um phoned someone up said I dumped the guns as the phone someone up I phoned someone up come and get the guns I need the guns picked up um and I drove off didn't get my chance to shoot tiny thing but then what happened oh yes then a couple of days later I'd say a couple of days the time scale I can't get my head around yeah so a couple of days later I was up because Sarah had said Tony had gone to visit Patton Hospital I sound like a commoner don't I hospital right because Sarah had said that Tony had gone to visit Patton Hospital I decided to get Tony at the hospital so one night I'm at the hospital and like I say to everyone I don't know if it was from Terminator where he had a shotgun over his shoulder on a bit of rope but I had it like that so I don't know if I copied him or someone that copied me whatever somebody could be someone so I had the shotgun and I was waiting outside the hospital near the main entrance and I'm there and I've heard someone's or someone said Steve turn around it's my mate I'm not saying his name he said what the hell are you doing here I said tucker listen up a shotgun like tucker I mean you're crazy there's armed old boo everywhere looking for you he said Pat's grasped you up Tony's grasped you up Tony and Craig grasped me up for trying to shoot them behind my place Pat had grasped me up for shooting him he said get the hell out of you did they crash you up yeah they made statements did they yeah did Pat get done for a gun under his pillow yes when you that was my gun that was my gun the bastard we'd done some drug dealers over and I left the gun at where I left the gun so when I shot Pat the first time Pat got shot I shot him because people think I would have shot him twice I went no unfortunately I didn't um I left the gun there so the person who's place I left the gun around give it to Pat because he phoned right and said I need a gun Steve's going to come and get me in Osbill which was funny enough I wasn't going to get him I was going to get Tony um what was I saying so when he got done for under the gun under his pillow did he get sentence for that yeah he got recalled he got a recall back to Nick because he got out oh I don't know listen a year so when you were going through all this with them how long after it when they got murdered in 1995 I got 15 months I got a right result the police pointed a good word for me not because I'm a rongon but because the police knew exactly what happened everyone knew what was happening between me Pat and Tony everyone when I got nicked what did you knack for that mother uh free attempted murders did was their statements go against your court or the right what happened was I got nick for free attempted murders armed old Bill nick me I had a gun down either I had a different gun not the one I shot Pat with I had a different gun I got that changed yeah I should fucking thank you so many of the things you use otherwise I'll still be in town like he's bloody useless you couldn't shoot anyone with it it's crap did you never try and get them fixed if you knew that you needed to do the job right because if you kept missing then that just puts more pressure on yourself and your family um I think I'm away to miss I mean people say oh yeah you can't shoot properly but I hit a moving elbow about 15 foot so Pat was running away from me it's just that you put the gun bang bang bang that's all I did at the time I couldn't trust anyone I couldn't go to people because I was then Tony had something like 100 of Dormon pat had a lot of friends there was a lot of people in south end who knew what was happening I was getting phone calls all right and I didn't know who I could trust many osmonds did you have have you got some like osmonds did you get any threats to keep life to please come to you and say look there's a hit out in your life no nothing no so you were at a prison so after the shootings you get 15 month pat get recalled were you ever in any danger inside prison um when I first got nicked for shooting pat like so I got nicked for three attempted murders the gun yeah I got yeah possession of a loaded gun in a public place with intent to endanger life possession of a loaded gun uh sorry possession of a gun in breach of firearms ban possession of ammunition in breach of firearms ban also driving license and dodgy money on me when the old bill nicked me so I've gone to court there was a closed court for whatever reason I think because there was threats out on my life but it sounds a bit weird anyway in court my dad was there and so was a mate Malcolm who's now dead mountain walls great mate missing him all the time Malcolm had a recorder a tape recorder and then days it would have been and the prosecution stood up and said pat take knows it was Stephen Ellis who shot him and he's confident he can pick him out on an ID parade Tony Tucker knows it was Steven Ellis who tried to shoot him and he's confident he can pick him out on an ID parade Craig Rolf knows it was Stephen Ellis so all three of them had made them his statements Malcolm recorded this on his recorder when he left the cult because my he got in with my dad and he said he was my brother I mean anyone who knew me when I weren't brothers but he's a best mate so anyway when I got remanded Malcolm got out the recording of the prosecution saying all three grasped me up so when that got out apparently all three of them withdrew their statements by then I was banged up in Chelmsford because I've got caught with a gun obviously my story was that I had the gun I wasn't going to shoot anyone I was just going to blow my own head off I did have trouble with people but I wasn't going to say who but the police when I got nicked they told me everything that happened that morning in my flat you know when I said that Tony was banging the gun in my nut and there was there was Craig and there was Pat and Tony no Craig Tony and Pete right they knew everything they knew him me giving them the gun they knew me being literally lifted off the floor and pushed down there down the hall in the bedroom they knew everything and I said look I've got problems with people but I'm not saying who I'm not going to tell anyone who the problems are but I had the gun I was going to blow my head off right it's as simple as that I wasn't going to shoot anyone because in my mind I thought well hang on if I'm going to kill myself I'm not guilty they they nick me for a tent to engage your life well so of course you want to get off don't you you banged up you want to get out you're nuts you start thinking and I thought right fine I was going to blow my own head off that's it that's my story I'll stick to it so when those three withdrew their statements and I stuck to my story all they done was in the end I went to cult for possession of a loaded firearm no sorry they dropped that possession of a firearm in breach of the firearms bayon possession of ammunition they didn't bother doing me for the I'd blank driving licenses and forged money so I went to cult I should have got for it for four years the old bill knew what was happening everyone knew what was starting happening I had police come up to my cell half a dozen probably said good on you Ellis well done Ellis well done Ellis nice one one cop said why don't you use an elephant gun and then pieces of shit the police when they interviewed me said look we know you shot him we don't care we're just doing our job but if ballistics comes back and proves it we're going to nick you so don't do it because I didn't have the gun obviously you're going to stick to your story aren't you when you're going through all that as well the pressure because the due ask out and leech to kill you yeah yeah was that the pressure just too much yeah of everything yeah I phoned him up by night crying I couldn't handle it I really couldn't handle it I had to protect my family I forgot about it till someone said oh Colton did his book and I said don't pop my name in it Colton I don't want the I don't want to I'm not interested so somebody said to me they've read his book or he's seen the film and in it it said about old Steve Ellis I should shoot him and I did I phoned him up crying I said Colton I can't do it I knew the only way to save my family was if I died um so I phoned him up said lot I can't do it I can't remember if I sat there and put I don't think I put the gun in my head and attempted it I don't think I was that whatever but I knew I had to die so I phoned Colton up said Colton can you put a bullet made he went why and I told him and I said they're on my family they're trying to get my family and he said I don't agree with that he said I'll talk to them um and he said call me back or whatever so I phoned you back later and he said they're going to leave your family alone he said but you've got to leave town like western on it so um he said and if they catch you look there's different stories in my head I'm sure basically I said to Colton tell him I'm sure he said they take your arms and legs off so we tell him if they take my arms and legs off I'll still have a friggin grenade a friend of mine had a grenade he's going to give me a grenade and I was going to basically wait outside Tony's when he comes out in the car bang bang bang windows and I was throwing a grenade in the car so if I didn't kill him with the shotgun I would have killed him with the grenade so um I said we'll tell them if they take my arms and legs off I'll have a grenade and I'll in my wheelchair wheel up to them and let the grenade off and I'll die with him I lived to kill him I lived to kill him and that was what I lived for When when part Tony and Craig get killed in 95 where were you? I was out that night but I wasn't there unfortunately I I didn't even as I told you you want to hear the story yeah yeah yeah you're still very right um right first of all this free police that have recently made a um a film or made a statement saying there was no evidence against my dad yeah obviously because my dad never got nicked if there was evidence they'd have called him in my dad told me I was out that night I'm I was trying to nick something probably a lorry of something that's what I used to do like like nicking lorry loads of gear so I was out that night I didn't have the mobile phone with me when I got home it was a missed call from my dad so whenever time I got back I can't remember because I was 10 11 whatever um there was a missed call I thought I won't phone him back I'll call him in the morning so the next morning the phone's rung now I've got these times six or seven in my head it might have been seven or eight I can't remember what flipping time it was but I remember the phone rang and I was asleep I'm not like I don't sleep until late so I've answered the phone and he's going they're dead the dad they're dead they're dead and he's laughing I'm like what are you on about dad and he said he said Pat Tony and Pete are dead Pete Cuffee Pete Cuffee Pat obviously Pat Tony and Pete Cuffee not Craig Rolf I said dad what are you on about he said they're dead they're dead and I was I think I started crying I said dad what have you done he went don't worry no one knows not even your stepmom knows he said nobody knows I said dad and I was crying what the hell have you done um turn around we're talking and I said I'll call you back so I think I went down the might be wrong I think I went down the phone box then and spoke to him and he was saying Pat Tony and Pete and I couldn't believe it so all that day I was listening to the radio and I thought it was either 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock these are numbers I've got in my mind I don't know why I'm probably totally wrong it was the first time I heard it announced on the news that day that night obviously the next if they got killed at night right it was the next night I heard it on the news they didn't get found till the morning of the was it the eighth wasn't it six I can't remember the freaking date um they got whatever morning they got found on it wasn't announced on the news until later that night now on the news they said Pat Tony and Craig obviously my dad had got it wrong right he but he didn't know Pete and he didn't know Craig so people uh people say do you believe your dad done it and I'm like we're like my sister as well those police who released that story they spoke to my sister my sister I'm not gonna say name um and she said yes dad told us in the morning now my dad knew about it early in the morning my sister Natalie he found my sister my sister I wasn't gonna say no I can edit that now yeah yeah yeah yeah it's fine um she got told in the morning as well um people say do you believe it I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it even though they screwed up my life so much so bad so over the last 20 years there's been two men in prison for their their six boys mothers I know for a fact they didn't do it and um John Worms Jack Worm sorry sorry Jack so you know who done the mothers of Pat Tony and Craig who was it done the mothers and um uh yeah so yeah so well it's my dad look he's he said this story that the free police released right they said there was a guy who walked down a back alley or not down a back alley across the field and threw the back gate right killed the guys this guy's someone Jasper I can't remember his name Belly Jasper if that's what his name is so when this story came out from the free police people said well did your dad know Billy Jasper I'm not I don't know I've got my friends if you say to me um if I tell about a crime I committed I talk about Malcolm right I've done crimes with other people but they're still alive so I'm not going to tell you their names my dad has his criminal little like say he was banged up at eight he was wanting to prove score at the age of eight he'd done bird until he was like in the mid 20s in and out in and out in and out like I used to be being a Wally so he had his I don't know who he knew he I know he had friends up near um on your chefford 100 I know he had friends further on he loads of friends different places so did he ever it met to you that he'd done it he said he'd done it and what was going through your mind when you found out that we're dead I couldn't believe it I really couldn't I was frightened what he'd done I really was frightened what my dad had done um I was crying yeah I was crying well you're close to um jack wombs or max steel did you know them are you not worried you get you could get done for preventing the cost of justice no because I look I didn't when I was living down in Bournemouth at the time when they're solicit to come when I found out that Mick and Jack have been nicked they're solicit to come to see me wanted to know everything obviously and I said look I was standing cold and sweared black was blue it was me who did it right to get them off right to get them off at what I just knew they was innocent right and I would have stood in cold and sweared me that had done it then you got to prove it haven't you know okay so we're nicking you for it fine nick me I wanted to have I wish I'd been there that night because I would have made them pieces of shit suffer I had this dream of nailing them to the floor through the knees and elbows and then flaying them cutting their skin off with a knife just slow death right I wanted to kill him I wanted to torture them right for what they put me and my family through I um I didn't I wish it'd been me it'd been me I was frightened what my dad had done I didn't want my dad getting banged up I didn't want my dad getting retaliation there was loads of a crap that he was suffering from my family was suffering from and to know them to know that to know they were dead how could I accept it how could I believe it I don't flip in no is that why you live with a lot of regret because your dad done it and you didn't um what I put them through I didn't intentionally put them through that my dad and my step mum and my sisters I didn't intentionally put them through that it was just something that went wrong and it escalated might there was a time when we'd done some dealers over my my dad was looking after 10 grand of packs right so when it had all gone pear shaped obviously I told my dad when he said well Pat's been on the phone he wants his money so I said I'll come around dad no so he had a garage he was in the garage and he had a shotgun and he had the month he had the shotgun in a wellington this is what he told me afterwards he didn't know I think he told me after Pat had been around because I wasn't because I said I'll come around but it already I think he told me after so Tony and Craig had pulled up Pat had gone into the garage because the garage door was open and Pat had said to my dad you got something of mine and he went yeah your money's there the money was at the front of the garage my dad was sitting in the back of the garage with a pump action no I don't know if he had a pump action or just a shotgun in the wellington that he would have pulled out and just shot him if he started with it all right so my dad had to do these things the day or two before they were killed my dad said he was walking down the road with Sophie my sister Sophie and somebody pulled up next to him going at least we're going to get yours some I don't know some words whatever there was it was shit all the time so it was just constant pressure constant stresses if people were getting back into a corner with the only way is to come out swinging themselves hmm how was it when you heard Pat had died was there any emotion did you feel any regret that I couldn't I couldn't no I remember Pat we was good friends I remember firing him up after I shot him and we was talking we were talking and then he started he started and I said Pat sorry I shot you it was nothing I think I said nothing personal it's just you and Tony you had to get me so then we had a massive argument and I didn't talk to him again because I thought you might forgive me how speaking about it all Steve how how mentally draining is that he's trying in because you can see that emotion in your face that it's some serious stuff you'll need to live with that pain for the rest of your days obviously it's 25 years deep now all this stuff and it's still getting brought up it's still getting spoke about there's still films or still books it's like you can never just close the chapter on it or close the full book on it is that hard my my dad died of cancer right sorry to hear that he had three lots of cancer how much did that affect him I don't know my granddad died of cancer he fell off the roof and apparently that and he had stress with his my aunt and my mum believes that's what killed my granddad the fall were off the roof and the stress of like the argument with it which would have been my aunt his daughter so how much did the stress that my dad had to put up with I've seen in pieces of shit we've all got cancer in us we've all got cancer ourselves he just takes something to trigger it so was the stress that I put my family unintentionally put my family through did that trigger any of the my dad my dad had cancer the throat got treated for that he had cancer of the backside the skin his anal passage his bum whatever he got treated for that then he had stomach cancer and stomach cancer and bone cancer killed him and three times when my dad's treatment I had to watch a man become a skeleton who was crying because he was in pain I had to watch that so did did all the shit that I calls trigger the cancer ourselves in my dad all the shit even if it didn't like all the crap all the fear of who was coming around my sister Sophie was five don't he was 14 or 15 and my step mummy had to look after them I had to look after them and then this crap still comes up how's your head been the last 25 years what's life been like after it for you? Is it being tougher? Did you feel a bit of stress and pressure off you when that happened or did it come tenfold again? I don't know I can't I can't I just tonight how's life now? It could be better if I had more money. Get a book out.  Do you feel it easier though?  Look at the pain and the trauma it causes everything has that ripple effect.