Aloha and welcome to another episode of the Savvy Chick Show on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Chantel Seville.  Now, today on the episode, we have Lisa Emanuel. Lisa is an acting or professional actress as well as an acting coach, and now a businesswoman and entrepreneur. She's all about unleashing your inner performer and being the absolute best you can be through acting.  Well, Lisa's your girl, so welcome, Lisa. Thank you, Chantel. Thanks, welcome. You've been up all night, you party animal, or maybe not? Yeah, no, not quite. I've been at the hospital with one of my little babies. Yeah, I got an infection, so I was there all night and I've just come home to do this interview. So right now it's actually, what, 7 a.m. in Geelong, Victoria, which is just out of Melbourne, Australia, and she's been up all night, so this should be interesting. Still dark outside here. So when it comes to unleashing your inner performer, how do you do this? How did you actually do that? Perhaps we can start with you. Well, how did I do it? Well, I guess, oh, where should I start? When I was younger, I think it came quite naturally to me to access these emotions inside, but it's not like to be a method actor, so to speak. But when it came to performing, it's definitely something that you can learn over time, and it's definitely a skill to be learned. Anyone can do it, and if a performer is one skill to learn how to act, but it's another skill to learn how to perform and have that acting shine through, and it's the same as a business person or even just a kid that wants to be more confident to, I always say, talking to adults is such a huge thing for teens and for kids, and performing, the skill of performing, is definitely an asset to you and for somebody if you have kids to learn to speak your truth and to tell people what you're interested in, what you're all about, and then basically tell yourself. Yeah, I mean, from a young age, I actually was enacting and acting classes, so I couldn't agree more. I think it's just helped me so much in my life, just having that ability to switch on and off and adapt to situations, and it's really gave me a lot of confidence and resilience, which you need to learn in acting. So you started acting when you were how old? Well, I had a really bad experience when I was about 11 on a stage, and so stage acting scared me for years after that, but I had my first professional job when I was 14, and I'd started acting at an acting school about three months prior to that, and then I got pushed into one of Australian's leading drama series, and then I had recurring sort of guest roles four years after that on that show, which was called Blue Healers, so I went back as numerous characters because the show was a very long running show in Australia. So I know you're on Blue Healers, and you also ended up being on a lot of other really well-known Australian TV shows. Can you tell us what they were and what that experience was like? Yeah, so I did, well, Blue Healers, and I did stingers. I've now done house husbands, neighbors, underbelly. Yeah, I've done quite a few. Well, a lot of the times I was given when I was younger and a teenager, really intense roles, which, sorry, I've lost my voice, which I called the torture teenager roles. Like, I really felt like I was the torture teenager of a teenager of Melbourne, because a lot of kids are, like, really happy, and they're like that Disney-style where I was like, you know, that kid in that movie that would be in, like, I Am Sam, or Puberty Blues or something, where there's something really full-on going on with like a family, like a domestic violence situation or something. I could be that kid, and I really related to that kind of storyline and character. I could get in really deep, and that was something that people always said in my acting that I had a lot going on inside and behind my eyes, you know, which helped tell the story. So in an adult world and an adult-themed show, that really stood out. Yeah. I think that's pretty important, especially at that young age that you were able to identify, and other people could identify, that that was your strength, because, I mean, in acting, there's so many different types of roles, and if you're that deep character, trying to be a happy person, you perhaps wouldn't even have gotten as far as you have with your career had you tried to be that other type of actress that really wasn't your natural ability. I did try though, because the roles that were in Australia at the time, like there's a lot more going on now for kids, like lots of more varied roles, because of, you know, all the streaming channels, so there's a lot of TV that's happening, which is so amazing. But back then, it was like really standard kids' TV shows, which was more like your happy, you know, bubbly, really animated acting styles. And I did try and go for those roles, but it just wasn't coming out. Like I tried, and I tried, and the casting directors, I could see them. They really liked me, so they kept calling me in, and they were just rooting for me to get these roles, and they were just like, oh, not quite, you know. And I really wanted them so bad, which made it harder, because all those nerves were coming through. And I didn't have that much experience to know how to shut those nerves off and not care about possibly being able to move over to the USA, you know, and all those dreams were in my head, and I just wanted it, and I couldn't let it go. So in the end, I just didn't get that lead role in the end, you know. But I did end up going over to America when I finished high school, so I could get over there to study at Stellar Eidler. So that was what I did instead of going to uni in Australia.  With, you know, being on set and things like that, can you share what it's like to be an actress and to be on a set and just that experience or celebrities you've met? Yeah, well, like, I've met so many, and I've worked with them, like not just met them, I've worked with them. Like the first Blue Hillers guest role, so the first guest role, like proper speaking role on TV, I ever did, was with Sam Worthington, who is the lead in Avatar. I think people might know who Sam Worthington is. But that was actually his first role out of drama school. Wow. As well, and it was mine, so obviously he's got a lot further than I have in this room. But yeah, and so I've met actors like that, and I worked with these other actors, like Roger Corsa, who, I don't know if you know him over in America yet, Ditch Dabby, he was on Blue Hills at the time when I did another role. He's gone over to, he was in a show called Spartacus and a few other shows in the U.S. Yeah, I've met a lot of people. But I think, you know, one of my favorites that I met, I was on a U.S. film, and I was a standing, and that came to Australia, that production level was just like, well, you know, they had these beautiful vintage cars.  Everyone is dressed in these amazing costumes. You actually feel like you're in another time. Like a magic working on like Game of Thrones or something like that, where everything is just, you're immersed in this whole other world. And that was just incredible. And I met Melissa Joan Hart. So she was Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Do you remember that? Yes, of course I do. I love her. She's like, wiggle who knows? Yes. Well, when I was a kid, I would raise her from school to watch Sabrina. And when I got asked to be her little sister's body double standing, I was just like, aside myself. When I actually saw her, because she was producing the show, and she was walking across the set, I didn't even say hello. I was so scared. I was so nervous. So I did meet her in a way, but I was also just too scared to say hello. I was in the same room as her.  I felt like nobody wanted to talk to me, but it was actually now I realized adults don't know what to say to kids. Okay, so if you're a kid going on a TV show, don't get offended by the lead cast if they don't say hello, because there's some that are really good with kids and other adults just have no idea. So would you say hello first if it's a young actress on a set? It doesn't hurt to, I mean, what can they do? Yeah, but you'll probably freak them out if they're not ready.  I'm going to be nice to you, but not quite know how to relate to you. So you really are working in an adult's world and that's what you have to be prepared for.  And I wanted to go and hang out with them after work. Obviously, that wasn't going to happen. But I think, yeah, just get in there and say hello and somehow I'll get them to remember you. Just be really witty and savvy about what you know. Be really savvy. Be really, be a savvy chick. Exactly. Don't be afraid to speak your mind. So when I did this one show on Stingers, the role was a girl who had actually killed her mom and her mom and her sisters in a house fire. It was really fun. The episode was nominated for an AFI award, which is the Australian Film Institute Awards, which is huge. That episode was put up for that. I sat at the table when they were all discussing their characters and what was going to happen. It was like a table read or something with the director. And I told them all about my character, everything that my character had gone through my whole life, how I felt. And they were just like, wow, they were not expecting that at all. And it really showed initiative. And then they really took me seriously and like asked for my opinion throughout the episode. And I became, I guess, they trusted my view. And I just felt really great and I felt really appreciated, you know, that I let people know, hey, I'm here. I'm a serious actress. So was that when you started to feel that you were unleashing your inner performer? Is that when you started to feel that that was really, you know, you were starting to get in the groove of who you were and what you could offer?  You can let your whole self shine through and show the world and the camera or the audience what you really came there to show them because sometimes our nerves can completely take over and we walk out of there going, oh my God, that wasn't the person, that wasn't the character that I wanted to show them, you know. So that's a huge thing. Something like Alexander Technique or any kind of relaxation. I wouldn't say meditation where you like zone out, but something where you're still quite focused is vocal warm-ups and things that can help you be present.  So you can say hi to the casting director and introduce yourself without being like, I really want this role. Give it to me now. That's perfect advice. I think anyone who's watching this should definitely watch Replay and replay that because that's spot on for everything in life which leads us to our next segment which we'll just take a short break now but unleashing your inner performer no matter what industry you're in. So stay tuned for some tips. Be sure to tweet or ask us any questions. Give us a call on the Think Tech Hawaii Hotline and we'll be back to you shortly on the Savvy Chick Show. I'm Jay Fidel and I'm here with Pete McGinnis-Mark HIGP and research in Manoa. What about that show, Pete? I think it's great, Jay. Research at Manoa really provides faculty members at the University of Hawaii with an easy way of explaining some of the research activities we're conducting on the campus. For example, I do a lot of space research, whether it's the moon and Mars, but many of my other colleagues do other interesting kinds of work, whether it's exploring the ocean floor in submarines, studying earthquakes and tsunamis or other activities. So Research at Manoa really provides us with a way of telling the general public some of the activities which we're involved in as well as communicating to our colleagues and students. This is a fun science and we really appreciate the activities which Research at Manoa enabled us to talk about. I love Research at Manoa. Come around, join us. It's Monday, 1 o'clock p.m., every single Monday. Be there or be square. And we're back on the Savvy Chick Show on Think Tech Hawaii live from Honolulu. Now we're here with our guest, Lisa Emanuel who's actually in Geelong, Australia and she is the actress and acting guru. Now she's been an actress for a long time but most recently she's transitioned from being a performer to a businesswoman and on this episode it's all about unleashing your inner performer. So in this segment we're going to talk about how you can do that but firstly Lisa, tell us, how did you transition from being a performer to a businesswoman? Well, I don't know both but give us the insights. Yeah, well now I completely blend it and I found this way to be both. I've always had a business mind, like a marketing mind I guess you could say when it comes to pursuing my acting career. I wanted to show you something. Where is it? So when I had my first role on television I sent out these. This is like my headshot. It's a postcard to all the casting directors in Melbourne, asking them to watch my episode. So I like paid to get these printed when I was like 14, right? That's awesome and very innovative. But to me, that's like running a business, right? That's not something that just a performer does waiting for their agent to call. So that's back before we had digital things. But basically what happened was I was asked to write a chapter in this book called 13 Wise Women with 12 other businesswomen in Geelong but I had to have a business. I couldn't just be a performer and I kept saying but I am a performer. I have a business number in Australia.  You can hire me as a contractor and they're like no, you have to have a business. So I was like I really want to write this chapter and I don't want to pass out this opportunity to hang out with these 12 other awesome women and learn all their secrets for the next 12 months writing this book. So I came up with a business and it was the Actors Gym. And yeah, I got to write my book and like this is me, the Actors Gymnasium. And they're like you have to go and register your name if you want us to write it in the book. So I did that and this was really like something that was like a deadline. Figure out who you are, figure out your brand put it on paper, write it in a book and you have to go and do it. If you don't go and do it, then you know what would I be saying really about myself if I didn't go and do it? It's become this beautiful, what do you call it, a passion project. Yeah, so I basically I hung out with these 12 amazing business women in Chilong who it ranged from, I was the youngest. Some of them have had the business after business and they have like grandchildren. And I just like soaked up everything they had to say and their energy being around these amazing women and then it really did give me the confidence to go ahead and do it myself. And it didn't feel like such a far off dream or possibility for me to set up shop on my own. Yeah, all I had to do was figure out who I was, what I wanted to sell, I want my brand was and I realized it was like it was all about performing, you know, at the heart of it all. And unleashing your inner performer. So what does your business do? That's right. What did you create? Yeah, and so it took a long time for me to figure out what my like, I guess my slogan was. I really wanted, everyone was like, but who do you teach? I was like, I can teach anyone. I can teach kids. I can teach preschoolers. I can teach parents. I can teach adults. It doesn't matter. I can teach experienced actors. I can teach beginners or people who are everyday people to public speak, teens at school that need more confidence. It doesn't matter. So I come up with born to perform because everyone was born. It doesn't matter what age you are. You can be reminded that you were born to perform and in you is a performer of some kind. And it's a skill to be learned either in a professional way as an actress or performer or as a business person going into a meeting or as a kid when you need to talk about yourself to get something. Yeah, so. I love that.  So it's just whatever the show is, whatever that might be. You can be an engineer, be a star of that. You can be a performer. You can be on TV like us, whatever it is, but be the star of your own show. So I mean that, you know, couldn't agree more with everyone is born to perform in one way or another. Yeah. And in this today's world, you have to sell yourself and people actually get, they get vapid if you can sell yourself. You get more things.  So how do you do that? That is like, especially for, say, the shy people watching or those who know they have an inner performer, they know they've got this burning. Can you give us some tips or let's play? Okay. Well, you know, I take little bits and pieces from people who I've worked with teachers. I've had a couple of little cool tips are archetypes. So figure out some characters that really turn you on, right? They really make you feel like a completely different person or like a character or a certain version of yourself. So figure out the different versions of yourself. So mine might be, one might be Wonder Woman. So think about Wonder Woman when you're going into like an interview, right? If you really want to show, you want to put that smile on your face. I might think of, you know, the Wiggles. Everyone knows the Wiggles, right? So when I'm going to children's form, I think of, I'm a Wiggle. That's what I do. And I get up there and then sometimes it just comes out of me like the tone of voice and the melody that goes with it and the vibrance and the bounce, you know? But then if I want to go into a meeting to get a serious corporate job or a corporate client, I actually put on a perfume that reminds me of my first ever Air Hostess interview because once I wanted to be an airline hostess. And that perfume, I only wear it for job interviews and that's actually a method acting tool, right? So things can help give you a sensory memory and give you a posture even. So I walk in confident, I walk in, I feel primed. And it's like a subconscious signal. So that I guess that's my Air Hostess. And I put that face on. And I carry my folders, you know? And I walk in there in my nice corporate heels and I feel nice and steady. And I talk to people like I'm an Air Hostess and I try and get what I want. But that's perfect. And as we're saying, like that's good for whether you're going for an acting job or whether you're going for a real job or whether you're just meeting someone new for the first time that you need to want to put on, not a face, because I mean you can still be yourself but just have a different era of confidence or essence about you. And that's right.  Everyone has different versions of ourselves when we're in private and in public and with our friends and with our mom. The only problem is, is when we're in a stressful situation we tend to, um, our sympathetic nervous system kicks in and it starts to ruin all our good work that we've done to prepare for something, right? So you have to have these tools and acting can really give you those tools to get through situations. Sometimes five minutes can be like forever if you really want something.  You teach children as young as how old with your business at the moment? What ages do they start as young as how old? Can you do your courses? Probably like two. Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, I can do drama at workshops with two-year-old, pretty much. Like, I let parents just bring their kids, you know. And then I can teach any age really. Like, I think that's the thing is that I can understand the different age levels and understanding of acting and people who are just getting into it. And I can read them what they understand and how they're looking at performing and then how they can overcome. I can subtly sort of move them in a direction, I guess, to work around certain pre-concepts. Is that the word? You know, how they're sort of thinking about it in the wrong way and get them past that and over the other side so they can just focus on, I guess, unleashing their inner performer. Yeah, I mean, I do a theatre event called Crash Test Drama, for all ages I've had, I think, people as old as maybe 65 come to that event and get up and I encourage them to get up and perform on the day without rehearsals. I love teaching everyone. Really? I do. They all have different blocks and challenges for me. I wanted to say with teens, unleashing your inner performer is about the biggest thing, is about getting practice in telling adults about yourself. That's the biggest thing, right? Yeah, because teens and kids, they're so scared to talk to adults. They don't know that adults are interested in them.  So I think just keep practicing that.  Get them to tell stories that they've made up to people that are older than them, that will give them confidence just practicing that about talking about themselves. The stories, my actually one of my best friends when I stayed with her, her and her husband get their little girl to tell them stories sometimes before bed. And I thought that's such a neat way of doing things. So she tells them a story of her day, but at least it's giving her that ability to do her own sort of storytelling. Yeah, that's right. Especially if friends come over at the dinner table, great opportunity to get your child to be included in the conversation, as an adult, and get them to have a voice at the table. And it will help them have a voice if they want to be a performer. It's just these little subtle things to help them. Yeah. Awesome. And with them, so with your big, because we're nearly ready to wrap up here, but I want to know the biggest vision for you and your business and what you're doing. You were telling me yesterday when we were speaking about, you know, the things that you'd love to do and perhaps have a traveling show and you sang me your song. It was a little hint of the tune, but... Oh, it doesn't have a melody. It's got words. I've been figuring it out in the car. For Play-Pretend, which is my preschool, is drama program. I can see this as being it's own, probably it's own business in itself. I'm just seeing where all these things grow. I'm throwing things to the wind, going and doing little jobs and just seeing what takes off. Some stuff falls flat and I have nightmares about it not working. And then other stuff. The first workshop I ran up there is I had 120 people there. I found out the night before. I was expecting 12 kids. So, just do it. Just do it. Somebody gives me an opportunity like this. Just run with it. Just do it. With this, I would love it to turn into something that was obviously... The Wiggles is massive. Like a stage show, so if I could get some sort of funding or someone to back me for that. This is such a great concept where the kids get up to perform as well. And with the Actors Gym, I just want that to be like a really great school that I could take internationally to help people go and perform internationally. And it's all about not just practicing your acting in class, but getting the experience of performing. So, all of my students, I give them opportunities to get in front of people, whether it's a paid audience or just their parents and their friends, because you need that experience of being in front of people and in front of a camera. So, yeah. I want it to go as big as possible. It'll be huge.  And I want to get a costume and come and play because I think there's nothing better than just really getting out there, being fun, being silly. Or in sciences or maths or acting, whatever it is. So, I mean, I am a huge advocate for drama, especially when it comes to young people. And I am so grateful to have you on the show today. And especially, you know, your tag there, just imagine where you could go, who you could be. This show and segment is all about open your mind to the imagination of what you can do and, you know, who you can be and who you can become. So, do you have any closing notes for us today? Oh, I just want to say thank you so much. Like, you're such an inspiration to me.  And I just wanted to say that, you know, that was one of the things that really inspired me and gave me courage to take that next step as well. So, thank you. Aw, keep going. We love you. We love all the savvy chicks out there. Please be sure to watch every episode at 11am on Wednesdays. Honolulu time. Thank you to Kawhi for always hosting us here at this beautiful studio. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Aloha.


I am going to share with you some of the latest results out of the why we read Wikipedia research, and I know I have five minutes, so I try to keep it down to three minutes, and then any questions you may have, I can answer in the two minutes left. So let me just share. Toby, do I have more than five minutes? It actually turns out that there have been some cancellations, and you do. Okay. So I shoot for 10 minutes then. That will take time. Yeah, so I think we're just going to, yeah, so why don't you talk to a quarter after? Sounds good. Yeah. Let me just share my screen, and I won't see, I think the chat anymore, but I just want to hear from you. Do you see my screen, like, the presentation? Yes. Okay, great. So why we read Wikipedia? Most of you know about this research. It's a research that we started in 2016, and basically the goal of the research was to learn about Wikipedia use cases and read their behavior across languages. The way we approached this problem was that we have the web request logs that capture basically the reader behavior in a very atomic level in our servers. And basically, you notice that at an eye, the user searches something on, let's say, a website like Google, they end up coming to Wikipedia, read an article, they traverse another article, they go back potentially outside of the Wikipedia world to a search engine, and they come back to Wikipedia. So what we did is that we used basically this window of opportunity that the user is on Wikipedia, and we surfaced a survey to the user, a series of surveys over time back in 2016, and I think the more novel part of this approach was mixing the survey results with web request logs to make sense of the use cases of Wikipedia for the readers, but also understanding a little bit more about the behavior of readers when they're on Wikipedia. A lot of the focus on 2016 and early 2017 was to build the survey, what type of questions we wanted to ask people, and many of you have seen it, we came up with three sets of questions. One of them would ask the user about their information need, basically the user would be questioned. So the user is on an article, we pop up a quick survey widget and we asked him to help help us improve Wikipedia by answering three questions, and these are the three questions the user sees. I am reading this article to do a quick fact lookup, basically, reading for an overview, or I want to basically go into an in-depth reading, and this kind of information gives us insight into how deep the user is planning to engage with the article or the series of articles they are reading. We asked the user whether they had prior knowledge of the topic related to the article before reading the article, and here the user could say whether they are familiar with the topic or not familiar. And we also asked the user about their motivation. What was the trigger that brought them to this article, to Wikipedia and this specific article? And the user had some choices. They could say basically a piece of media was the motivation, meaning that they watched a show, listened to a radio program, read a book. They need to make some personal decisions. They would need to buy a book, buy a laptop, choose a travel destination. They are bored and randomly exploring Wikipedia for fun. The topic has come up in a conversation with a friend, with a colleague. They have a work or a school-related project due, basically. They want to know more about the current event. Current event can range from, you know, terrorist attacks to soccer games or earthquakes, someone's death. Anything that creates basically a sudden spike of user attention. And the last thing is basically intrinsic learning. The topic is important to me and I just want to learn more about it. And we left another field in case the user, in case we're not asking the user for a kind of motivation that the user wants to communicate with us. So we ran the survey in 2016 and we had some results. And many of you have already seen them. I'm not going to go over those. Those were heavily focused on English Wikipedia. In 2017, we ran what we call a great grand survey. This survey was ran during a one-week period in June 2017. I think it was June 21 to 28. 14 languages were involved. These were Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Dutch, English, German, Hebrew, Hindi, Hungarian, Japanese, Romanian, Russian, Spanish and Ukrainian. The survey was run through a quick survey in both mobile and desktop platform. Sampling rates varied for each of these languages depending on how much we expected to receive both views or impressions of quick survey, but also engagement with it. The survey was shown on article pages and to those we do not track off. And we collected 215,000, 16,000 responses in total across these 14 languages. So our job in the past months has been to basically dig through these responses and try to regenerate what we did for English Wikipedia last year for these now 13 additional languages. The first question is, is there anything burning questions that you want to ask right now or shall I move on? I want to see the results. So the results that you see are going to be the results from the first part of the analysis which focuses on the survey responses, the bias, the part about the behavioural component. We are still working on that, but this is as of this morning. I don't show you all the languages, but I do have for all the languages. So if you have specific questions, just ask it. First one is Arabic. Our sampling rate was one out of 10 and we collected close to 2,200 responses. The user that helped us with the translation and community engagement is about. And here are the responses. So starting from left, what you see is that intrinsic learning is basically the highest reported motivation for coming to Arabic Wikipedia. And then with a drop, you see media and being border random. All the other reasons seem to be kind of, you have a pretty gradual decline in slope here. Intrinsic learning seems to be a strong factor for Arabic Wikipedia. By the way, if you're looking at these plots for the first time, the blue or what you see on the left hand side is left hand side of each of these bars is this actual survey responses. And the green is the device survey response. You see that in most of the cases, the biasing didn't have a huge effect. You see a little bit here in person decision, for example, for all intent and purposes, you can focus on the green bars here. The information need is pretty much spread evenly. So in depth reading, overview and fact checking is used pretty evenly in this language. And the split very similar to what we saw in English last year in 2016 is almost 50-50 for Arabic speakers. Next. Hey, Leila. I don't characterize the differences or like in general the comparison between English and Arabic. I think a lot of folks have kind of already kind of taken in the English results. I'm mostly curious kind of how Arabic is different. Right. So in English, I think what we saw was basically media was the highest. And then it was, sorry, I hear a little bit echo. I'm not sure if somebody is trying to say something. No. So for English, what we saw mostly was media, intrinsic learning. And I believe it was conversation. I need to refresh my mind from that here. So for Arabic, I think what is interesting is that intrinsic learning comes higher than everything else. For English, another difference was that the slope was pretty constant. You didn't have this sharp drop that you have between media and intrinsic learning. What this really means, we need to look at the Holocaust logs a little bit deeper to understand what this drop can actually mean for Arabic versus English. For now, based on these responses, there is a drop. And it seems intrinsic learning is more important for Arabic Wikipedia users when compared with English. Okay, let's now look at German. We had 28,000 responses for German Wikipedia. And here is what you see intrinsic learning again, reported as the top reason for coming to German Wikipedia country, followed by media. This slide followed by conversation. The drop, the slope is much smoother here. You don't have a significant drop. One thing you see in German is that fact checking is higher. So basically, the distribution is not as spread as let's say Arabic or even English here for German. You have a lot of fact check errors and in-depth reading is as much as we saw for English Wikipedia in 2016. Prior knowledge seems to be pretty split also for German 50-50. Moving on. For Spanish, we collected around 40,000 responses, one out of five page views. I think one thing which is interesting about Spanish is that work or school comes as a motivation, which is in top three motivations, which is rare across our languages. There is something going on here that we need to dig in deeper. There are either education-related programs that are being more active or for whatever reason it can be that media is not, for example, as active of the source. And there can be multiple reasons why this is happening, but it's definitely different than other languages in this sense. Fact checking over you and in-depth are very similar to Arabic. They're basically spread, the distribution is pretty spread. I'm not going to go over all 14, worry not. I'll show you a couple of more for Hindi, 3,000 responses. What we see here, again, intrinsic learning is reported as a significant factor for motivation for coming to Wikipedia, followed by conversation. These are kind of both interesting. One is that learning seemed to be at least in terms of self-report is a strong motivator. We actually don't see such a sharp decline from one motivation to the next, I think, in any of the other languages. And the other thing that is interesting is that conversation seems to be a big factor for initiating people to come to Wikipedia, which is pretty nice. Users report a lot of in-depth reading, and we need to dig into a web request box to see if this indeed is the case. So we can come back to this, but this is the highest in-depth reading reported across languages. Leo, this is insanely different from everything else, which is fascinating insight. I think that Hindi editors, I'm sure, would love to see this. Their readers are actually behaving the way that all the editors believe. It's interesting, again, we need to check in web request logs and the length of articles and all that to be able to see if we can explain why this is happening. It can be that, for example, for fact-checking, most of the information is available in English, but not in their language. So people are switching to English for that kind of content. Yeah, but more on this, there's definitely something here. Sorry, go ahead. I'm actually going to... This is... Have you seen, this is fascinist. That's... I don't know. I think I know that you should... I think it's fascinating that that split is so... So different from the other way. Right, and I think what would be really interesting is also, for example, to see if intrinsic learning behavior is actually similar to English or not, right? Because we can characterize what it means for a user to be an intrinsic learner. It would be interesting to see if that's different between English and Hindi or, let's say, Japanese and Hindi. Something is going on here. It can be that either people feel like the self-report is the layer that causes this gap or it can be that indeed that's a very strong factor for coming to Wikipedia, which would be really good to know because that means a lot of emphasis... That can mean that a lot of emphasis should be put on the learning component of Wikipedia as opposed to other factors in Hindi. Or we need to advertise that we're a fact-checking source better. Right. Depending on how you want to manipulate that. Yes. Okay, last but not least, I'm going over time, is Japanese. For Japanese, I think one thing which is interesting is that before then random cups as top three, I think for two languages this happens, one of them is Japanese. And actually, the report is pretty high. It's 25, well, let's see, 22, 23% come for this reason to Japanese Wikipedia. The spread across overview in depth and fact-checking is kind of, I would say it's the same. These differences are not really huge. Yeah. And I have some right up here just to say that media conversations and intrinsic learning seem to be kind of the main motivations, the top three motivations for people coming to Wikipedia across the languages that we looked at. There are some differences where Spanish and Romanian, it seems, work and school-related projects can substitute one of the three top motivations in Japanese word and random exploration does that. And in Ukrainian, the events basically replace one of the top three motivations. But overall, it is interesting to see that these 14 languages are not so different from each other in terms of the motivations, except for the few that we need to understand better. And I think that's all on our end. Yeah, I'll stop here. Yeah. All right, so can you just like fill us in a little bit on the next steps in terms of. Because with the English, I know we dug deeper on a few dimensions and curious. Yeah, so at least in the six or seven languages where we have enough data, we want to dig deeper and basically connect the responses to the web request logs for the survey participants and be able to characterize each of these groups in these languages and then compare them with each other to see if there are differences in terms of how we characterize users for these specific pockets in different languages. If they're not, then that's a fantastic news because it really simplifies the way we think about readers across languages if we can say that these users are actually the same across these languages. If it's not, then obviously it's more complicated and we need to look at nuances as we develop or think about developing certain products for different users in different languages. And the next big thing I think for this research in general is to add demographics component to this research so we are interested to understand if this kind of line up the research that we do with the results with different if you have information about the gender of the user, the ethnicity of the user, the socioeconomic status, the education of the user, like how these results change. That can have implications on how the surface content and the type of content that we create across projects and languages. Like on our end it's like, how do we use this information to make our product that, like the fact that, you know, bias or whatever side that you would be so different from people coming to the, you know, so different from people coming to the you say they are like, what do we, what do we do with this? Do we get this information to the editors and be like, Hey, this is what your viewers want, like, I don't know, but I think this is something that, you know, we have to start, we have to start thinking about. Like, I'm sort of thinking of all of our projects as being sort of like this sort of one giant plane of, you know, knowledge or whatever is certainly not accurate. We start figuring out what we do with information about various segments. Yeah, and whenever you want to brainstorm about those and you find our input kind of more directly useful, please pull us in because we can't think that far without your help so.


Welcome to the diversity luncheon. My name is Caitlin O'Connell, and I run content strategy and diversity initiatives at Cloud Foundry Foundation. I'm really pleased to see so many people in the room today. How many of you are attending this luncheon for the first time? Very cool. Thank you for being here. We have a wonderful event planned for you today. We are thrilled to be screening episode one of the Chasing Grace project produced and directed by Jennifer Clover. This documentary series devotes each episode to a different topic within the women in tech narrative. The project aims to give a voice to the everyday women working in tech, not just the ones who make the headlines. The focus of today's episode is the gender pay gap, which can lead to one million dollars in lost wages over the course of a woman's career. Not to mention the profound emotional deficit brought on by the feeling that she's always chasing something she cannot attain. This is a tangible manifestation of gender inequality in the workplace that disproportionately affects women of color and transgender employees. Following the documentary, Jennifer will be moderating a panel comprised of a group of women from all over the globe working in technology. Since last year's diversity lunch in Basel, and even since the luncheon in Boston this past April, there's been a sea change in the way we as a culture are talking about gender. I've been thinking about gender my whole life, but it's become apparent to me that about half the population hasn't given it a ton of thought until now. In the wake of the Me Too movement, and especially in the period following the testimony of Dr. Blasey Ford in the United States, I've been ruminating on two interconnected topics, silence and anger. So much of what women have been forced to bury, the microaggressions, the harassment, the coded language, the glass ceiling is finally being talked about. We're sharing our stories and realizing we aren't the only ones. There is colossal power in breaking that silence. And when women talk about this, they can be angry. I think anger is something that scares men and potential allies away from having this conversation or being able to listen or believing women. But I want to say, we have every right to be angry. Our anger is part of what has galvanized this movement. It's part of what galvanizes every civil rights movement. And I will ask each of the men in this room to listen to and empathize with that anger from the women in their lives, instead of being afraid of or dismissing it. You might even find that we are less angry if you listen to us. But anger also can't be the only emotion that drives us. There must also be hope. Hope that we can really change a profoundly entrenched system of thought and action. And the change must be fundamentally intersectional. If you're not familiar with intersectionality, it's the notion that there are interlocking systems of disadvantage across race, gender, class, etc. It's why it's impossible to talk about class without talking about race, or why a movement that only uplifts cisgendered white women isn't true feminism. It's understanding that a person may be disadvantaged in ways invisible to the naked eye. It's also why the change must come from both directions, from within the system and from the voices outside the system trying to change it, which is why we need allies, like Daniel Jones, Steve Greenberg, and many other folks in the community. The foundation is committed to a code of conduct that includes five basic tenets. Be open, be inclusive, be kind, be transparent, and be curious. What's not included, but is something I think is foundational to who we are, is be the change. I'm extremely proud to tell you that since Boston Summit in April, we've doubled the number of women and non-binary speakers at Summit here today. We are now at a full, we are at a full 25% of non-male speakers. And it's not enough, but it's a change. It's incremental progress that has been facilitated by a team of people committed not only to digital transformation, but cultural transformation. I want to thank all of you for taking it upon yourselves to learn how to be the change, for participating in a conversation that isn't easy because there's no clear solution. Again, just like cloud technologies, there's no silver bullet that's going to overturn thousands of years of patriarchy and racism. But little by little, we can ship away at that stone together, and one really tangible manifestation of doing this is equal pay.  Genders, hey, guys, thank you. I'd like to introduce our panelists. Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of Portland, Oregon. Come on up. She lives in Portland, Oregon. She is the executive producer of the Chasing Grace Project. Welcome. Yeah, is it working? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. For more than 15 years, Jennifer has been a woman in tech and has been recognized for her storytelling acumen by Business Insider. She's been ranked among the best PR people in tech for her video storytelling works. She co-founded Wicked Flix, a film and video production house working with companies and individuals to affect change through original content. She is also the founder and lead consultant at Rethinkit PR. Most recently, she was the VP of comms at the Linux Foundation and has been recognized by CIO.com as one of the most influential women in open source. I'd like to welcome to the stage, Ina Ivanova. She is the senior product manager at SAP Cloud Platform. She began at SAP as a developer and has worked on rolling out and enabling the adoption of cloud native patterns, methodologies and technologies with SAP Cloud Platform. Welcome. Next up, she's Zara Nwabara from Pivotal. She works on R&D, or she's the R&D technical program manager based in London. She's a service and product specialist, experienced, helping enterprises across diverse industries and stages of development improve their operational performance and capabilities through the application of evidence based project management methodologies. As Pivotal's research and development technical program manager in London, she works across various product teams to make feedback loops and communication more effective through the use of experimentation, process engineering and service design. Next up is Caroline Rennie from Comic Relief. She is the product practice lead. She focuses on building products which support 365 fundraising donations and sharing the progress of their work. Working with the engineering lead, Caroline has helped the organization transition from building one-off microsites to product suite, which is reusable and better utilizing Comic Relief's tech partners. Anushka Streets is the VP of engineering at Pfizer. She has over 20 years of software engineering experience across multiple sectors. She's highly experienced and has worked directly with a broad range of technologies and platforms, has managed the transformation of software development organizations as the industry has transitioned into cloud native based delivery. This includes the adoption of DevOps practices and importantly, driving the cultural changes and behaviors to make it a success. She is currently working at Pfizer, leading the engineering team that builds and operates their fin kit platform. And last but certainly not least is Tammy Van Ho, the distinguished engineer and director of Cloud Foundry at IBM. Tammy is a distinguished, she works in the IBM cloud division where she is currently responsible for Cloud Foundry services and enterprise enablement in IBM cloud. She's a veteran software developer and has held a number of roles in IBM, including chief technologist for development of virtualization and cloud management solutions, but with open stack. She's based in Rochester, Minnesota, where she and her husband Reed have raised three amazing daughters. Amazing. And thank you to the Cloud Foundry Foundation for having me here to screen episode one, episode two comes out in a month. So hopefully we can do some of that when that's done. But thank you for having me and for having the rest of the panelists and for creating a forum for these types of discussions. It's it's it's critical right now. First question to the panelists is what's your reaction to the episode? Whether that's your own experience with the pay gap or your perspective on the pay gap. Maybe it's the gender gap, which is a more general term for all of the gap that is involved in being a woman in tech. What was your reaction to the episode? I'll start. That was like watching my whole career. I've been through every one of those stages that those women talked about. I feel like I have felt throughout my career, like I'm always fighting my way to the table back to the table back to the table.  And then, you know, as I said, I raised three girls along the way, too. And so I was in and out and in and out as well. Fortunately, I feel that I've worked for a company for IBM that they pay attention to that. And there were times when I know I experienced a big pay gap and IBM rectified that very quickly. So I've been fortunate in that regard. But that was like watching my story. It was and it's shocking to me that it's still that way because I've been in the industry a long time. And I thought I had hoped that we had gotten beyond that by now. Yeah, we were talking about that last night. A lot of women who are more senior in their career have told me, I thought we took care of this. I thought it was done. But thank goodness people are talking and speaking up, which is the result. I think of many things going on in our culture right now. But because it hasn't changed, it just doesn't get talked about as much until now. Any other reactions to the piece? I. Oh, no, it's always on. I thought the bit that resonated with me, as well as the fact that I think I'd like my daughter to watch it, which I thought, I think she'd enjoy it, maybe with some of the some bleeps. Although she does live with me. The bit that resonated with me was the kind of economic story and the fact that we can all acknowledge the fact that it's just wrong to treat women or any other minority in a way that's kind of unsatisfactory like this, right? But when you boil it down, particularly when you're having conversations with kind of senior people in organisations who you're trying to get engagement from around this, actually taking the emotion out of it and turning it into something that is like cold hard cash related actually kind of makes it a lot, lot clearer. And it's a kind of the it mentioned it talked about kind of the impact on GDP and the impact on kind of welfare and all that kind of stuff. But I think it also has a massive impact on the kind of the future validity of your kind of UK PLC or USA PLC and the ability for them to actually be competitive in the marketplace going forward. When you look at other countries who are doing better with representation of women and of the minority. Like particularly India is doing a pretty good job that I kind of trying to rebalance that is they're in the foothills but they're doing some really good work about engaging young people and women in technology and Israel, Russia, the proportion of women entering that these countries are going to steal our lunch unless we get that kind of diversity issue sorted. So it's, you know, quite apart from the fact it's just wrong is I love it.  OK, well, I can say. And I also agree. I think similar to Tammy. That's also been my experience and I am probably closer to the other end where I've just started or have been in this space for a few years. And I think the thing that came to my mind while the video is integrated is I'm just so exhausted and I'm so tired. And I was I was at a summit a couple of weeks ago. And one thing that was interesting, we actually sat down with our with our leadership, we had like our president there and several of our directors there to speak to a group of like the black pivots. So it was the first time that we've ever had a chance to meet together and be faced to sit face in the same room. And we were talking about what asking the president, like, how did you get to where you where you are today?  But what was interesting in my mind was that while he was telling us what he did, I was in my mind thinking, OK, now make that harder times three exponentially and how am I going to do it? And I just think it's interesting. What I really loved about the video is that it kind of shows, you know, I'll work for five years to get to where you were today because you were friends and there's no way for me to have those types of friends because these aren't my people. And there's only so much. I think there's a lot that we can do as allies, but we also have to realize how important it is to have to have people present that you can look up to and truly understand and empathize. And that empathy can come in the form of same same. It can come in the form of same different, but it has to be there. Yeah, I think for me, I just found that I think there's two very clear stories and sort of like, well, which one would you do? And I was like, well, no, which one have you done? And I'm the, oh, cool. Yeah, that's enough money. Thanks so much for the opportunity. And, you know, I think we have sort of a pre-talk beforehand the term lucky got used. Like, I think, let's shed it as like, I'm so lucky that another guy is I've worked with our dicks, basically, you're like, oh, that is lucky, isn't it? And then you're like, no, actually, there's an element of just like, what is right, what is, you know, what should be common decency and the sort of concept of being like, well, given this opportunity, so I don't want to throw it away by saying, actually, I think I think if you're offering this to somebody else, they would be on significantly more than this. Because then they could say, fine, we'll get that much more talented man. And then, like, goodbye, I'll just take what's being offered. I think that's something which is very hard and for a hard trait to get out of.  Yeah, I think when we made the peace, I was like, most of us are going to relate to Megan and want to be fairer, right? Like, oh, yeah, I've been there, but I don't want to be like that. Yeah, I'm more or less thinking that it's actually the internal barriers you put to yourself and not going, asking for getting what you deserve and getting what you're really worth. And that's kind of really a challenge initially. But you need to work hard to overcome this barriers and really get what you deserve out there. And that's, I've never really thought, maybe, of this like a challenge for myself only and never perceived myself like a minority. And even though I am, I'm usually the only or one out of two women in a room out there. But maybe it's related to my childhood and my parents. Very little told me that I'm worth it and I can do whatever I want to do. And I should perceive everyone not based on their gender, based on their race, based on where they come from. But really based on what they can do. Yeah, I am. This is working out now. Do you want to try this one? When I decided to do the project, one of the reasons that I did it was I have the same experience. My parents told me I could do anything I wanted to do, be anything I wanted to be. I'm a, you know, I grew up in the 90s, right?  And then I got into the workplace and it was like, oh, wait a minute, this isn't quite what my parents told me it was going to be. So I think at least women of my generation, that was the big, like, what? Wait a minute. And also listening to millennials and Gen Z is coming up behind, I guess, I'm a Gen X, you know, they're not, they're not taking it, which is great. I'm learning a lot from them. So how do you know you're worth and how do you ask for what you need? Please sell us. You two seem to have assorted. So I think I get, I mean, I think a lot of people look to me and they're like, Chisa, like, how come you just asked for what you want? And I like, and why do you know? And I also sometimes people make fun of me because I talk about myself. And the bottom line is if I do not talk about no one else is going to do it for me, and that has been proven to me over and over again. And it's unfortunate, but it's a surprise when people actually do talk about me because I'm so used to having to do it myself.  And I think that's that's the reality that I live in. And it's interesting because I think like. I I'm very clear on my worth and over time. And it took it took an entire lifetime given I hopefully still a lot more. Anyway, left, but it took a long time for me to get to this point. And I think the other piece of it is that I just hate it. I've already mentioned this a couple of times. I hate inefficiencies and it's ineffective not to say something like it wastes time and that's my time. And and the other thing that I realized was that and I think this goes with any type of relationship, right? Whether it's your company or otherwise, if you're in an abusive relationship of any kind where you're not being treated the way that you should, it's time to leave. And I think having the fortitude to understand that when you're not getting what you deserve, you just have to go and find it someplace else. That's a really hard thing to do in any type of relationship. And I think that like I've been in those situations at the office. I've been in those situations in personal life and lessons repeat themselves regardless of what part of the life that you're in. And I think that if I'm going to learn it in one place, I'm going to make sure I apply it someplace else as opposed to having to learn the same lesson over again because one happened at school and the other one happened at work and the other one happened on the street. Like it doesn't matter. These are all the same lessons. And I think for me, that's what I realized. I can't keep wasting time by allowing the same things to happen to me over and over again just because it was in a different context when it's the same. It's SSDD. If you can look it up on Urban Dictionary, I'm not going to say it. It's SSDD. Okay, look that up. Everybody's on their phones right now. Yeah, one thing to add to that too. It is for me, it was hard to ask to figure out how to ask. And I was one of maybe less than six women in an organization of 300. And I totally resonated with I have nobody to talk to every day. I don't have any girlfriends at work. So one of the things I did was made the men in my team, my girlfriends. And girls understand what that means. And I've mentored young women through the years. And they ask, how do you stay in the loop? How do you know what's going on? I go, find a man in your team that you trust and make him your girlfriend. And they immediately go, oh. Absolutely. And that's how I learned to ask. Because I did have a very good male colleague who said, you need to come to my office. We need to talk. And so he taught me how to ask within the company I was at. And to maybe tell a comment on this, because I also have many girlfriends among my male colleagues. It goes both ways, which is a nice thing. Because for male colleagues, it's usually kind of, they try to accommodate all the girls around. And they try to really treat us better. And I really liked the talk today in the keynote. That's usually, at least for me, it works like, they're underestimating me. They don't trust that I can do as best as them. And they are giving me the easy way. And that's not how you want to be treated, of course. Because it leads to really lower self-esteem. And you really don't trust yourself when people approach you like that. And when you have such male colleagues, and when you talk to them, because they're wondering how to really set the environment to suit us, it's really helpful. It's a great transition to one of the themes we wanted to make sure to talk about on the panel. And that is the role of men in the community, and the women in tech community.  Every major tech company has a women in tech group. Now it seems inside their company. And sometimes men can feel excluded, especially if it's called the women in tech group. So panelists, what's your advice to your male colleagues about how to get involved, how to be a male ally? So I think my one's working. So we, at Cromac Leaf, we fund four called Pillars of Our Work. And one of those used to be called Women and Girls. And it took having a workshop in which we were talking about sort of what we're going to be doing in the future for some of the guys in the room to just pitch up and say, you could call it something different, and then I would feel more included in that. We now have a pillar that we fund called Gender Justice, because everyone has some form of gender, whatever they want. But then you can relate to that, and you can see that it is right for there to be gender justice. So I think, for me, and this is because I feel like, again, going back to our lucky terms, I've had a great time as a woman in tech. So I've never felt like I needed to find those groups myself. But it just means that I see the purpose of having women in tech where it's just for women. But I think in order to actually get progress, it should be really focusing on gender justice rather than just saying it's a women's problem. Because if people perceive it as being a women's problem, then men probably won't engage that much. Plus it's not just a women's problem. I'm going to start reeling off some data I can. That completely resonates with me as well. And I think the IQ, I've had a fantastic career in tech, and I have been lucky. I've worked with, I can probably draw on my entire 20 years. I can probably draw on kind of one example where I felt I had been treated differently simply because of my gender. And maybe that, and perhaps just that one is bad, right? And most guys probably wouldn't have that experience to draw upon. But I kind of feel a little bit like the middle-aged white guy, if that kind of makes any sense. Because I've had those such positive experiences, because I work and have worked and continue to work with such kind of open, engaged, yeah, I'm one of three or four women in my office. But I do work with open, engaged, who I feel completely they're equal. I am lucky, right? But because of that, so the stories that you talk about, I find really, they don't resonate with me because I can't understand them. I don't, I've never felt them. And so I kind of feel like on that side, I'm kind of, tell me what I need to do to kind of understand. I completely accept it's real and it's happening and we've got to do something about it. But I kind of feel like I need to know what that is myself. Just, I grew up in a family of very dominant men. And so I learned at a very young age how to deal with dominant men. And the women in my family, aunts, my mom, were never intimidated by these dominant men either. So I had very good role models within the family. And I was told to, I can be whatever I want when I grow up, but first I had to go bail hay and I actually poured concrete for four years because it was family business. So I had a lot of exposure to male dominated environments. And so when I, I too have been very fortunate in all the organizations I've worked in, I haven't felt that, oh, here's a woman at the table. I mean, I fight for the recognition, but I haven't felt unwelcome amongst my male colleagues. And I can't always say the same for female colleagues. And I feel very strongly about this, that we as women, I don't feel we consciously help each other as much as men do. And yeah, the example there where the men get to travel together or golf together, what have you. And so in my career, I've made a conscious effort to find that quiet woman in the organization and lift her up and help her find her voice and to bring her along because we are few and far between in some organizations. And I think we do need to commit and work harder to bring others along, primarily women, and help them find their voice and achieve, how do you speak for yourself and how do you ask? And because there are a lot of really talented women out there that maybe are putting up with it, right? Okay, I have a list. In terms of, I mean, I think that there are a couple of things tangibly that I would love for people to leave with today. And one of them is don't test in production. I think oftentimes when we have conversations like this, it can be very hard for allies to figure out the right ways or the right places to engage. If there's a conversation that you know that needs to be had, don't have it the first time with the person that you want to have it with. Test on a safer place first and then when you're ready to actually release to production, go have the conversation. Do practice first, right? I get questions all the time about, for instance, my hair and I'm like, you could have Googled this, you could have asked somebody else first and then you could have come to me with a baseline understanding of, so I've done some research, this is my understanding, can I validate with you? That to me at least shows that you tried. I think that's one. Another one is, go someplace where you are the physical minority. One thing that I would say is, I think as a man, make an effort to go to Grace Hopper. And actually, it's interesting because that's one place where the women, like the men, there's a line at the bathroom there. It's crazy that we just started using the men's bathrooms.  Go to church or go to a mosque with someone that you've never, and work on building that empathy. I think the other piece of it is, it's important to realize that your voice is probably actually more important because for instance, as a cis white male, the best person to convince another cis white male is someone that looks like you, right? And it's that buddy system where you absorb things better from people who are already within your in-group. And I think that that's a really important and powerful thing that allies need to understand. Like I can do a lot and share my stories and what have you, but it will still resonate better from your own kind, like from your own group. So those are three things, actually that I would say that you could leave with today and think about today and start today. I've got just a couple more questions for the panelists and then we want to open it up to audience questions. When we did this in Boston, we had a really great engagement from the audience. We have a kind of a nice compact group today, so I hope we can have some conversation. But before we kind of move on from how does the community work together, how do men in particular play a role, yesterday when we met as panelists kind of in prep, the Google manifesto came up.  That was the gist of, there was a lot in it. If you haven't read it, there's a lot more in it. But the panelists brought it up and wanted to talk about, you know, was that a missed opportunity for conversation and does shutting that down so quickly by Google intimidate men from being able to have a constructive conversation. I thought that was an interesting, provocative way to talk about it. So, what are your thoughts on that, panelists? I do think, oh, I should probably talk about it. Yeah, I think we can all probably agree that the content of the manifesto was in many ways horrible and certainly the way it was put forward wasn't helpful in any way. However, and, you know, I don't want to be controversial here, but hey, there were threads, there were seeds of real grievance in that manifesto that actually got, the Google reaction to that was to fire the guy, you know, we've taken action, he's not, you know, he's not a problem anymore. We don't need to talk about this anymore and we're just gonna like, we're gonna stick it, done, that's it now, we're not gonna talk about this anymore. And I felt that was a hugely missed opportunity. Now, talking about testing in production, yeah, probably not a great idea to write a manifesto and like lob it out there and have that be the place where you test these kind of thoughts and feelings and perhaps that he needed to have some kind of safe space where he was working so he could time test some of these ideas with somebody safe, that would have been awesome. But I think by shutting it off and by essentially brushing it under the carpet, what that's done is made other people who might want to talk about some of those threads. So why do we think it's important to promote maybe women-only short lists for some jobs where there are no applications from women at all? Why is that important? Why can we have a conversation with him to help him to understand why we think that's important and can we get his point of view and why he thinks that's unfair and that makes him and his group feel marginalized? And I think, but we didn't have that conversation and the reaction was so swift and so abrupt as to say, well, actually, I'm a guy and I kind of feel some of those things, but now I'm scared. I don't want to talk about those things anymore. So instead, what's gonna happen? I'm just gonna let them fester and just, you know, I'm just gonna let them build resentment and instead of talking about these things, I'm just gonna think these things inside and actually I might be a leader of a company one day, and we just end up back in this thing. I think it's so important that we talk and that we encourage open communication and dialogue about these things and actively seek not to brush them under the carpet. Yeah, I think that Google missed an opportunity to do some data-led evidence of here's how our product's been improved since it's been, you know, by including more diversity into our teams, here's the improvements and here's the measurable success of having diverse teams and not having one-track mindsets. And instead it was just like, that guy's crazy. So you're like, no, no, but show us why that's crazy, rather than just saying, oh, we all know that's wrong. Like, you know, if people are feeling that way, back it up with evidence and, you know, someone will be, you may not change their mind, but you might potentially soothe the potential, you know, now quietened people who might be thinking similar things. I think there's a missed opportunity to really do an evidence-led counter to why it would be good. In the other missed opportunity there and the other danger that I saw there, I too was disappointed that that got shoved under the table closed so fast as not only the men who might seek to get greater understanding now are afraid to ask because of what might happen, but the message that went to young girls in school, and there was no counter, no opportunity to counter that manifesto for, you know, all these girls thinking potentially, you know, there's young women out there thinking, huh, well, I was thinking about being an engineer, but maybe I'm not cut out for it, maybe I won't take that advanced science class or that advanced math class. And I think that was a unintended consequence perhaps, but I believe that's gonna be real. And something that's, you know, we're gonna have to continue to infuse in, especially in the school age, and I go into schools, you know, for engineering week and the like, and there's always young women that say, yeah, I don't have the brain for math or for engineering. Why do you think that? So that didn't help, I don't think. Let's talk, before we turn over to the audience, let's talk just briefly about community because we are at an open source conference, community is a major priority. I mentioned that women in tech groups have been all the rage over the last four or five years. There's a community around women in tech building and growing. Is that making a difference? Because we know, based on the data and the news that you read, there is no progress for women in tech, right? Everything says we haven't moved the needle in 20 years. That's what the data says, but if you're working in tech every day, you know that things are starting to change. It's slow, it's incremental, but it is starting to change. Is community, are those communities of women in tech the gender justice groups? Are those making a difference? In 10 years it would be like that was the silver bullet, that's what did it. Women needed to feel like they belonged somewhere and a constructive conversation needed to happen, or are we gonna look back and go, well, that was a fad? I mean, I just don't want to monopolize the, okay. So, okay. I think that what's tricky about diversity and inclusivity is that diversity you can easily see, but inclusivity is something that's a little bit less tangible. And we talked yesterday also about the importance of safe spaces, which is what a lot of those groups are and the fact that you need to have safe spaces and people need to be able to exercise and build muscles so that when it comes time to use them, they're capable of doing so. I think that if we assume having safe spaces is enough, we're fooling ourselves, and that there needs to be more, which is the case for anything, right? Like whenever you're trying to change any type of system, you don't just make one tweak or one change in one area and say we fixed it. And when you think about changing a culture, it happens in a lot of different places and in a lot of different ways and they all need to happen. There are things that you can do that are incredibly disruptive and are huge shifts and there are others that are smaller and I think part of the issue is that in order to make those huge shifts, people really need to embrace that change. And I think it's interesting because, for instance, if you're cooking or baking, right, and a recipe needs more salt, you just put more salt in. But we don't do that in spaces like this, right? Even though the salt is ready, we know it's exactly the same salt as what we've already put in. But that's the other thing, like first you have to make sure that you have the right ingredients and that the environment is ready and set up for it when you're cooking. But then the other, so in other words, putting in the salt at the right time and sometimes it's just too late, right? Especially when you're baking. So that's one, like the right time and the right place is strategically making the changes. And then the other piece of it is, when the time comes, add it. And I think those are two things that need to happen. So it's not just a question of, okay, yes, we've got this one side thing. We have to take, we have to think about what the big steps look like and then take them when the time comes. But we also have to think about the fact that there are a lot of environmental and smaller things on the inclusive side that need to be happening and both of them need to be happening. And in order to get that level of buy-in, you really need everybody within a company to say, yes, like we understand this needs more salt. And we understand the time in this process of making this thing where the salt needs to go, we've agreed it's here at the beginning before we put it in the oven. Because afterwards it's already sealed up because we're making a pie, okay? Anyway. This needs more salt, that's the goal for this challenge. Yeah, so I mean, that's the thing. And that's what, when you think about inclusion and diversity, that's what it is. It's both of those things. The right place to put something in and making sure the environment is conducive and then when the time comes, actually doing it. Yeah, I think it's also about making sure that company cultures aren't founded around sort of unnecessary, excluding activities. So an example, I love beer. Said Brett Kavanaugh, but sorry. I also love beer, but in a good way. But I know that there are members on my team who do not love beer as much as I love beer. And if I hired people purely because they're a great cultural fit, because I can see us going down to our local bar after work and blowing off steam together, I'm gonna get, I could have, it could be the most mixed gender, mixed race. Everybody's here, but we all love beer. And it's completely irrelevant to the products that we're producing, and it's completely irrelevant to certain viewpoints, because the viewpoint of not liking beer is also valid, not to me. But so making sure that your company culture isn't built around something which isn't about making the best possible product for your company is probably one of the sort of, the things which I think might be excluding people without even meaning to it being very impactful on your business, say. So I would say that such groups of women supporting each other is maybe really the first step. So to really have a safe environment where you can test drive, what you wanna try, and to have someone similar to you that you can really directly trust, it doesn't take that much time, it's easier. But then really as a next step, we don't wanna have like separate groups of similar people, we are looking really for this inclusion step. And that's the next step that we're currently facing, I believe, heavily to really come to the point from this different groups of similar people that feel the trust and have their safe environment, and then go ahead and have really an inclusive environment where we don't judge each other, we don't put labels on each other and we build trust a bit more easier like this. Yeah, I think there's a culture change happening. I interviewed an expert last week and they talked about, you know, is this a movement, is it not a movement? And she said, it is a movement. When you know that it's no longer movement is when it's just the culture, it's just the way that it is. And it's starting to change. I mean, like you're talking about the beer stuff, you know, the Silicon Valley and like, you know, 10 years ago, the rise of Facebook and the startups in the Valley really created a culture and tech around beer pong and sleeping under your desks and all of these things that really were not inclusive activities, right? On a number of levels, that's starting to change. So there is good stuff happening and coming. Questions from the audience? Anything, anything you want to ask any of our panelists or comments about the film? How do you know you're not in the exact same place? Because they sounded like they felt they were respected, they were doing hard work. And how do you have conversations about pay given kind of taboos around that? Yeah. I was gonna say there's been amazing progress by if it just becomes your company culture. So if you look at what's happened at the BBC in the UK recently, they broadcast that they had a massive pay gap issue and they are now very publicly making that difference. And I think there is a responsibility of companies to have to say, this is what our pay gap is and this is how we're gonna fix it. And I agree that that may involve some people getting pay cuts and that's not ideal for that individual. But if they can justify why they're worth that much more than the other individual, then good for them, they should keep their money. But if they can't justify it, then either that person's money needs to meet them or they need to meet that person. It is hard to know at times and throughout my career in IBM, there's been times where it's been very clear to me, I know where I'm at in the pay scale because IBM was pretty open and transparent about that as where I sat with the industry in general. And then as a company, we kind of went and also went through a phase where, no, that's personal private information. It's company, we don't want everybody talking about salary within the company for whatever reason. We're coming back out of that again because it is important, because people are far more mobile from company to company, that it is important that every employee understands where their pay is competitively with the industry and their skill, their role that they've got. And so it's becoming more transparent again in those years when it wasn't, and I personally had no idea. Again, it's how do you ask? And if you are wondering how you stand against your peers in similar roles, again, it's personal for you, but you can make the request, the ask, a business ask. Here's my skills, here's what I feel. I bring value to this company. Where do my skills fit in the pay grid of the company you're with or where am I at or how do you see me in the industry or you can even do that research on your own. And then you've got some data to ask and we'll talk to your management about if you feel that you aren't being competitively paid. Yeah, also this is a really a great place for male allies to play a role. A lot of women I've talked to, they feel more comfortable asking a male, right? Like what are you making? Or sometimes a male ally will say, you're not getting paid. What are you getting paid? What? And all of a sudden you're like, ooh, right? Like okay, so I think that's something. And also I just have to plug because I love this organization and to your question it's an answer, it's a direct answer. Ladies Get Paid is an organization that hosts town halls all over the world, actually mostly US and Europe, but it's a place where until recently it was just women and you would talk about promotions and pay raises and what different people were getting paid in different roles and you can have a really open conversation about that. You still can, but Claire's actually featured in episode two. She got sued for gender discrimination and now men come to her groups, very few, but watch episode two for that juicy story. Sorry, another thing you can do, sorry to... Another thing that you can do that we do is encourage your organization to regularly benchmark salaries and to perform reviews against everybody regardless of what you are.  It's a quite straightforward thing to do. I have one more thing to add to that, actually. And I think it's a question of keeping in mind that make sure that you're not so comfortable in your company that you're not also doing your own checks and I think that when you're applying for a new job and you're ready to go into that salary negotiation, you do your research to make sure that you're where you're at and I think that even if you've been with a company for 10 years, you should still be continuously doing that research and making sure that against the market and even within the company that you're checking to make sure that what you're doing is what you're getting paid for what you're worth. And again, regardless of whether you love your company or not, depending on what your goals are and what you're trying to achieve, I think it's important to make sure that you're always keeping yourself turned on and aware of the fact that this is something that you should be monitoring because it's your money and it's your life. So the question I had relates to geography. So in certain parts of the world, certain states in the US would be more expensive to even live in, like New York or San Francisco. Switzerland seems to be a very expensive place to live. So how do you look at the market in regards to geography and where you live? Obviously the Linux Foundation that the Cloud Foundry is a part of we all kind of work remotely. So it's hard to say that my colleague who lives in San Francisco shouldn't make more than me because they have a more expensive life that they're living than I might over in, you know, Ohio or somewhere, something like that. So is there any kind of websites that would provide you with those types of monetary roles that you're working in and how that might relate to your geography and whether or not you should be paid more as my colleague in San Francisco? So I know certainly in the UK, yes, there is and there's quite big disparity between, there is literally the North-South divide in the UK and so our head office, I say our head office, our, the engineering center is in Cardiff which is in South Wales and there's a big difference in the cost of living in South Wales to central London. And although I do have engineers who are based out of London and so we, as part of our salary benchmarking, do actually split the UK into geographies and we do benchmarking not just on a UK basis but on a regional basis against, and it's against actual data so it's against actual organizations employing those roles in those geographies. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't similar data for the US and the rest of the world. Yeah, and it's just a question again, like when you do your research, making sure that you take into consideration how things differ region to region. I think that for people that travel a lot for work or effectively aren't necessarily working in the place that they live, that's also something else to be, to take into consideration because if you're traveling, the amount of stress that that takes on your life and so I think all of those things again when you're building your case, even if it's just for yourself, you should know your number and you should know why you have that number regardless of who you tell it to. And then it's a question of well if that's not, if I'm not at this number that I think that I deserve or maybe it's even more, you should be able to justify it for yourself first and foremost and that's just a question of doing the research and the sites definitely exist. Hi, I'm Shubhangi, I've come from India. I'm currently studying in Indian Institute of Technology and like Anushka said, it's very true that in India, a lot of companies are trying very hard to give opportunities, especially to students and I've experienced that because my school being one of the better schools of the country, a lot of opportunities flow in and I do struggle hard, I do work hard for them and when I get a certain opportunity, like even the opportunity that got me here, the diversity scholarship that I got because of which I'm here. Female peers, like you said, there's not enough girl love in women in tech. So you might have faced that during your early career and even seeing Abby open the summit, her keynote, that was very inspiring and even seeing you people and hearing all of your stories, it's very inspiring and I want to reach somewhere like one of you guys. So I just want to know your story, like what motivated you and what got you through to where you are in your early days and what was your motivation going through that phase? Great question. I think some of it came from just the way I grew up and the environment I grew up in, but my motivation was, and I've done multiple of these personality tests throughout my career, the Myers-Briggs and stuff and the one thing that always came through, ranked through constantly was I'm always striving to be competent, but I never see myself as competent. So I have this continuous drive to reinvent myself constantly and I partner with those around me, which are predominantly male, like I said, and build trust with the group that I'm in because like you said, there's not enough girl love, which is also why I've committed to girl love. I find, every organization I'm in, I find the women and I give them leadership opportunities and I give them visibility opportunities. So that's one thing I've personally committed to. I would encourage you to do or go find, and like I said too, find the men that you can trust and partner with them and it's hard.  Because I was having babies and I was trying to build a career and it was incredibly difficult. The rest, sure, but that was hard. It is really, really hard because everybody's starting the race right out of school, right? And everyone's trying to find their niche and how are they gonna differentiate themselves and so you really have to look within your own strengths and what you value most about your own strengths, what you see as your strengths and how you can bring that to bear as your brand in your company and really capitalize on that strength you have and make sure everybody knows it, talk about yourself. Don't be afraid that if you're in a meeting whether it's virtual or physical, one technique I always used was if there was an action item that came out and I was new to a group and no one raised their hand to own it, I raised my hand and owned it because that gave me a reason to go talk to people and go partner with people and gave me an opportunity for them to get to know me and trust me and then I think inclusivity, a big piece of that is trust, right? If people know you and they know what you're gonna bring to the table, you tend to get invited along easier but you do have to, it is a lot of work to get there and somebody said earlier that it's exhausting. It was exhausting. I'm gonna go, thank you, thank you so much. I got the cue. So we're actually gonna wrap and we're gonna show a teaser for the next episode of Chasing Grace, which premieres on November 19th in New York City at the Saturday Night Live Studios, if anyone's familiar with that show. So if you'd like an invitation, let me know. But yeah, we're gonna show that trailer but thank you first to the panelists. What a great panel. Please, an applause for.


Hello everyone Dylan Schumacher and we are back with another edition of tactical trick You probably are wearing a winter coat right now It is winter and no matter where you are in America. You probably have some kind of coat on What I would suggest to you is in that coat you always have extra pockets that you don't put stuff in you Don't need stuff in so in one of those pockets at least put a tourniquet You can put a whole i-fac in there depending on your coat and how many pockets and stuff you got But at least take a tourniquet at least stuff in your coat pocket so that no matter what at least you have that It's an easy way to carry extra medical on you Which let's be honest not many of us do and we all should do more hope that's helpful do brave deeds and endure