This week on the anxious truth, we're doing a success story. We haven't done one of these in a long time My friend Katie is going to join us. She's going to tell us how she got from Literally crippled in her house during benzo withdrawal To traveling to europe on her own with her little kids and living her life again. It's going to be good. So let's go Hello everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number 224 224 We're recording in july of 2022. I think you're going to hear this in august or september. I'm not sure Welcome to the show. I am drew linsellata creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and recovery. So if you're new to the podcast, welcome I'm glad you're here if you are a returning listener. Thank you for coming back. I appreciate that So today we are going to do an anxiety success story. We have not done one of these in a long time I used to do a bunch of them. I haven't had a chance to do one in a while And katie story is really good. I met katie about 18 months ago accidentally on instagram When she popped into an instagram live with me and josh fletcher She was in a really bad place at that time And I have watched her in my facebook group over the course of the 18 months get better and better and better And now she is living pretty much a normal life again. She's traveled to europe on her own. She's working again Life is good. So katie's going to tell us all about where she was where she's now What she still has to work on and what she did to get there because I know that's what you guys all want to know Before we get to the interview just a quick reminder that the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode There are 200 and somewhat other free podcast episodes There's my morning newsletter via email call the anxious morning. That is free There's a ton of social media content. That is all free There are three books on anxiety and anxiety recovery that I've written They're helping tens of thousands of people worldwide overcome this problem. You could check those out too Those are not free, but they're certainly not expensive Every one of those things can be found on my website at the anxious truth.com So go check it out and if you are following my work and i'm helping you and you would like to help me keep it Free of advertising and sponsorships all the ways to do that can be found at the anxious truth.com slash support That is always appreciated never required. Thank you to those of you who are supporting the work And those of you who are just here listening Liking sharing. I appreciate all of you guys. Thank you very much. So let's get to it Let's get to the interview with katie. It's about 25 minutes to a half hour long I think you're gonna dig it and I will come back at the end and wrap everything up as usual Hello katie Hi Welcome Thank you you so We are gonna have don't be nervous. We're just gonna have a little chat as if we're just chilling and having a cup of coffee um I let everybody know in the intro that you are here to sort of tell your recovery story dot dot dot so far I know you're still working on some stuff, but you've come so far That's why it has a little bit of a dual meaning So let's just kind of walk through it a little bit Like well, we'll give everybody sort of the reader's digest version of where you are and like what you did because everybody's going to know How did you do this? Like so let's start with where you are kind of where you are and then then we'll fill in the middle part Like how did you get there? So I met katie about a year and a half ago roughly completely randomly Josh Fletcher and I were doing an instagram live one day And this person katie decides she wants to come on with us And that's how I met right so you came on with us and you talked about Where you are at the time which was not not such a great place. What was going on back then?  I would literally just lay on the floor And I had like this acute pressure mat or something and like different, you know, I'm like weighted blanket and Um, you know, I just couldn't get comfortable. Just I don't know I don't know.  It was an ssri situation, but I do remember like nothing you do stops Yeah, nothing you can't get comfortable until it's out of your body Which is what it is. So that that was a that was a dark spot for you.  I remember it was a little bit heartbreaking to listen to you talk that day You were convinced that things were not going to get better to a certain or that you couldn't Yeah Yeah, I had zero hope and actually I think during that time. Yeah during that time I I've I called 911 a few times.   So Since we're not going to give you more medication. Um, there's nothing we can do for you. So I just after a while You have to stop calling 911 because the bill's just pile up.  Anyway, I don't want to make too much about the withdrawal But I know a question that people will probably ask is Were you told now in my situation? It was anti-depressant and I was told you got to go back on it It depends on because the doctor is aware of the addictive addiction problem. So yeah told you need to start taking this Xanax or whatever again. Yeah. So I mean basically the reason why I was on is because I was in another dark period and which led to the darkest period, which was the withdrawal. So it's in a very dark period for about a year or two, maybe three years and I was just having several panic attacks a week. I developed Really bad agoraphobia monophobia. I couldn't be without my safe person my husband Couple other family members that were you know, my safety people couldn't be without them for You know one minute would go by and if someone wasn't there It would just be you know panic attacks panic attacks if they had to go to the store I mean my husband came home a few times to the police at my house because I had to call someone To sit and be with me. I couldn't be alone because what if I had a panic attack? what if I had an emergency and It was so bad that my doctor said I just want you to take this pill once a day So I started taking the pill once a day and after a couple months I was feeling really good and I was like, why haven't I done this? All along I feel great. You know, this is what all my friends talk about like, oh, I got on a medication I I feel so much better. I felt all better. So I stopped taking it And then that's when I got in trouble because you can't just stop taking it No, especially a benzo do not just stop taking it. You can't do that. Yeah, and that's you did you call turkey that Yep, and I didn't know that so, you know that after about a week. I Yeah, I worked out a taper with you know I actually ended up calling the pharmacist and we worked out a taper together And then I called my doctor and she approved of that taper So that was the that was the taper that I met you during Okay, which is certainly a difficult process to go through no doubt about it. So Um, okay, I get that So let's talk about so you're in a dark place at that point You're in the middle of a taper and all that's the problems that that brings and difficulties that bring Egor phobia is in full swing. The panic is in full swing. The monophobia is in full swing Um, I know that you had at the time. I believe you had a camping trip or something on the horizon And I remember dreading how am I ever going to go to that? I don't want to miss it Like I remember it was I think I posted it about that at least three times I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I apologize for that But I remember you telling us like how am I supposed to possibly get on this camping trip? You didn't want to miss it Yeah, and I went Yeah, you went I remember that I remember when you did when you did go So that's where you were then. Where are you now? I mean I I just for full disclosure Katie is in my facebook group She pasted she posts her progress now and then I've seen you do all kinds of stuff So where are you now? Um Well, I'm still in my house. No, just kidding Um, well as far as the stuff that I've done over the past year So a couple months ago most notably I got back from a multi international trip with my family that I planned Um, and I went back to work and I can stay by myself in my house for You know unlimited time I take care of my kids fully by myself now like I have little kids and you know I can take them to their events now pick them up from school. I've driven on the highway I wasn't driving at all when I first met you on instagram and um, yeah, and I mean, I wish I could tell you I just took a supplement and became all better But it was really just like the work that you have us do like in your book It's really just doing the work and I'm probably In like one of the best mental health places that I've been in in the past 10 years and um And yeah, and it's just you know, it's It's been it's been a journey and I want to say like thank you for being patient with me because I've posted probably a hundred times in the past year And you're just so patient and you're patient with everyone and I just I really appreciate you taking Your time to like help people like me and I've seen you help hundreds of people So, yeah, thank you. My husband says thanks too. Oh, you're welcome. That's how I said he's welcome But you did all this. I didn't do anything. I always just left a message and you picked it up and ran with it So you get all the credit here. I don't get any but but I think so People will ask I because I know the next question I'm here to ask questions that I know people will ask you if they got to talk to you Which is well, do you have do you have anxiety now? Yeah, I have anxiety and I panic attacks is just part of my brain Just whatever. I mean, but I have a lot less like a lot less. I mean, I probably haven't so I came back from europe Three months ago, I think and um So what happens now during my panic attacks is yeah, I had one day in particular and it was just Really horrible day, you know everything that could go wrong went wrong and um Someone without anxiety would have had a problem that day And I had a panic attack that day. I probably had, you know, two or three panic attacks that day But they are not anywhere near as intense.  I don't know if I made that up. Maybe that's a thing I don't know. So I get like I get like yeah, because I have migraine sometimes too um, so I get that panic attack aura at the airport in paris and um Like I know what it is now like I know the bodily sensations and um, it's more of an annoyance at this point And you know, I'm just like, okay Pause there have you know notice that I'm having the panic attack aura And I'm like, yeah That makes sense that I'm having a panic attack right now It truly makes sense and I like acknowledge that it's there and then I pick up my luggage and my kid's luggage and we keep walking through the airport, you know, so I don't know. I I guess I guess what I'm saying is I do have panic attacks still But they don't get to the point that they would get in the past um physically because I guess I'm just not scared of them anymore because I don't um I don't Fear them so much anymore. They're more just annoying. Yeah. Yeah disruptive Yeah, yeah, and I'm just like, okay. Yeah, that makes sense that I'm having this huge wave of adrenaline right now That's something my body and my brain do together and I still need to find my gate at the airport with my kids and I don't have time to lay on the floor and find an acupressure mat So I gotta keep I just gotta keep walking with my family to the airport So you are walking through Charles de Gaulle airport. I'm guessing in paris Having a panic attack carrying your luggage in your kid's luggage. Yeah Yeah, and I have to get macaroons and croissants. So like I go in line to get the last, you know, hurrah of Paris goodies and stuff like that before I go on to the next destination and because I like to bring something to my like Next B&B hosts for the from the destination that I'm at currently whether it's home here or from, you know, somewhere else Anyway, so like I'm having a panic attack and like texting the next air B&B hosts and like, hey I'm like, can I grab you something and they're like, oh my gosh, that'd be amazing So like I like still go ahead and I do my stuff that I'm going to do and um While I'm Yeah, you know, like the anxiety symptoms and the adrenaline's going on in the background So I've kind of like learned how to just Turn it turn my attention off from that like because I don't I don't need to pay attention to it anymore Because I gotta do other stuff now Just as a point to illustrate for people listening and I know that a lot of you guys are listening right now thinking How on god's green earth did this woman walk through? So katie lives in northeastern u.s. We don't say exactly where but you're on the other side of the world in paris With your kids by yourself having a panic attack in this giant airport And and walking just while it happens But I just like like I know you're thinking that it's impossible But we'll get to like all the things that katie did to get there But I just want to point out that in that situation the experience becomes so different because the front part of your brain Like the reasoning part actually had a say there We're gonna do this like it was able to weigh in and had room to weigh in and by the way I that's right I need to text my next host and and I'm going to go buy Goodies to bring with me like that's that's prefrontal cortex stuff That's like your reasoning logical brain kicks in and and can actually Do things even while your lizard brain the lower part of the brain is like ah danger Yeah, I Yeah Yeah, I just kind of like Turn like it's like I don't know. It's like I'm tuning into radio stations It's like there are multiple radio stations going on in my head and the The lizard brain like wants like you to tune into that one But I'm like I got to tune into this one for a second because I got to find my gate and get my order of christians We have a new metaphor here wlzb lizard brain right now The bfc prefrontal cortex radio on the air What a different experience it has to be from the point where a panic attack was all consuming and you could do nothing But just lay flat and and hang on and trial. Yeah, yeah, okay So I mean first of all it's a tremendous trip, which I enjoyed watching you document And it was so great I actually love when you post because you're so encouraging now and you're so kind and you're so giving your time In your experience, which I appreciate your help your experience is helping other people now Which I love and I and I appreciate so much So everybody's going to ask here. We're about halfway through the podcast now How did you do it and you know they asked you that because you've heard them ask you in the facebook ground But how how did you do that? So what did you do? What did it look like? What are those 18 months in a nutshell? No pressure just consolidate 18 very vital months of your life into about 10 minutes. That's all you gotta do Sure Well, it was so I have I kind of like broken out into all my different phobias like My driving phobia my monophobia My agoraphobia And I I sectioned those out into their own exposures So I knew that I was going to europe probably seven months before I went That's when I booked the trip and for that like going on a trip exposure I couldn't go I actually hadn't been on an airplane in three years prior So I can't really go on an airplane to test out I have A huge fear of airplanes That's probably like the biggest fear that I have that and like the dentist, but I think that's common But um, so I couldn't really like build up to like You know practicing going to Europe or anything So I practiced in other ways. I think one of the things that stuck in my mind when um I was talking about how do I practice for different phobias that I can't really practice for and you said to me one time Maybe last year or whenever it was um driving is a really good Uh exposure for practicing for other things such as Monophobia and stuff like that. So actually really focused on the driving exposure. Um, so The first time so what that looked like if we want to talk about one what the driving exposure looked like is me Having not driven for a few years. So I sat in my car and Just had had it in the driveway Just I couldn't even turn it on.  I'm like, well can't drive and he's like uh Wouldn't drew say to go do it again? And I'm like, I hate that I've told you about drew and like what to do and stuff like Because he was like Because he was like my mini drew in my ear. I'm like, you know what? Ah forget about forget about drew and he's like, no, I think drew would want you to To go back out there. So yeah, so I went back out there and um I started my car and I went down my driveway And that was that for that that time and yeah, so over the course of Several months, maybe maybe it took the whole year. Um Yeah, it was just, you know driving around my neighborhood just like really and then and then I have kind of like a big main road Attached to the to the road that I live on and uh, oh my gosh, it took me so many times just like Sitting there at the stop sign And then I went down that main road, you know with all the trucks and all the traffic And I just went to the first the first next road And then the time came to get my state inspection And I had to drive my car to it because it was one of those drop-off things so and my husband was driving his truck and um Yeah, that was the first time I went on the highway that day So I had about a year to practice up to that, but yeah, I I live in the boonies So there was a lot of practicing going around before I had to go on the highway to go to my state inspection but um, I had such a high actually, um Driving on the highway to my state inspection Like afterwards, I was so proud of myself because I kind of like couldn't wait to tell the group about it and um That I I was like, hey pizza's on me tonight and I'm gonna go get it And I like drove even further and I went and like got my family pizza And I did have a full blown panic attack in my car on the way back so You know a little rusty, but like yeah, I've just been driving. I've just been driving, you know, you can't Like of course, of course I was going to have a panic attack just because I was just so excited And that's what happens to me too is sometimes I get so excited that I have a panic attack I think that's normal. Yeah, any big emotion can morph into that quickly Yeah, so that is kind of what helped me go on the trip to europe is just building that confidence like you say You know, I got I got so much progress in my driving exposure that that really built up my confidence for a lot of other things Including the trip and then when I came back to Europe from europe um I got offered to teach a class unrelated um To my trip obviously, um, and I got offered to teach a class at my local community center and uh Of course, you know, the amygdala starts screaming at you. It's like say no say no You haven't taught in years and years.  I just got back from europe Yes, I'll teach the class. It's fine Oh that statement right there I was okay Just in for a second to again just for illustrative purposes Well, I'm okay driving in my neighborhood, which means I guess I could be okay driving out of the neighborhood Which means I guess I could be okay driving on the highway Which means I guess I could be okay bringing the car for an inspection getting pizza Or going to europe or teaching a class. Yeah, it's all the same thing So I swear I didn't pay katie to say that I swear And in the end were you practicing were you learning how to drive again, or were you learning how to panic better? Oh, I was definitely learning how to panic better Just turning off the the noise that I didn't need to pay attention to And honestly during that class even though I hyped myself up so much with it with the anticipatory anxiety I think I posted about that too so much anticipatory anxiety. The class was absolutely fine There was this one point. I was like I could have a panic attack right now, but Who needs that I'm not going to This the anticipation is is always I guess I can't say always almost always in my experience worse than the actual event Oh, yeah, almost always. Yeah Um, let's talk about the anticipatory anxiety for just a second because now you're challenging yourself, right? You're now that's it. I'm on the way. I'm doing things. I'm not going to stop That ramps up because now you know I'm I am committed to take a trip. I'm committed to go to the family barbecue thing I've committed to go out to dinner. I've committed to the kids concert or whatever And now you have to go through like avoiding is easier because there's less anticipatory anxiety Oh, it's so much easier to just avoid Yeah So how did you you know, was there any secret sauce in in the anticipation in your experience? How to deal how we that you didn't let that drag you under? um I think 7% slower was where that came in with the anticipatory anxiety that and it was really perfect because you were just starting to do I don't know if it was podcasts on that book or you would start to talk about that book a lot And I was like, this isn't exactly what I need to hear right now at this point in my journey Because that's when I was having Very bad anticipatory anxiety over going to europe obviously that was that was a big one and um And I really you know, I found myself getting wound up Weeks before the trip and then I would just you know Put it in my head or maybe like something From yours popped up on my phone like oh, you know, and I wouldn't even necessarily have to watch your live streams Or your you know, but just that little kind of like reminder like oh drew is talking about 7% slower right now And i'm like, okay. Yeah, duh. I need to stop Stop the hamster wheels turning and just pause and literally just wash my dishes that i'm washing and You know do this other tasks that i'm doing right now. I'm not in europe right now right now. I'm doing something else And yeah that book 7% slower is really helpful for anticipatory anxiety Who knew didn't pay her to say that either I'm gonna have you on every podcast Click the link below for the 10% discount Oh my god discount code macaroons So good so you you wind up you wind up going on this trip You're doing all these things amazing So in the end it comes down to step by step going at the fear and you how many times give me an estimate throw a funny number I mean, how many panic attacks you have along the way uh On the tree. Oh, I mean like from the first day. I met you To you now where you are now More or less when you started actually going toward the fear oh less definitely because I just you know got to pause and look at it and see it for what it is which is just you're amygdala just trying to Keep you safe from the scary thing that isn't you know really dangerous I guess you know less now but during the in the process Oh in yeah, yeah, so in the process. Yeah, I mean I definitely had to like go through um panic attacks to get to the thing You know like a lot of the drives for example, I'd be driving down the road. I'm like, okay. I today I'm driving You know and during those exposures I would plan out the route and I'm like, okay today. I'm driving from a B and that is further than yesterday And I would have a panic attack from a to b But that was the plan for the day. So the panic attack even though it was happening. It didn't matter So Yeah, it was just you drive from a to b and I learned that like by planning to drive from a to b and having a panic attack Especially on the days that I had the panic attacks during the exposures That was where like the training really like Happened with that part of my brain That was for so long Used to being in charge like that part of my brain was totally in charge of my life for years and so it went through like A regimen of like It was like a workout program. I was like gonna star in a movie. I needed I needed six pack of abs Is taking me six months to do the work. I don't know. No. Yeah I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does make a lot of sense. It makes perfect sense I mean, you're saying all the things that Clearly Katie's echoing a lot of the things you guys hear me say again and again again I mean bring her on here as as proof of that.  It's not like, you know, we don't really know each other It's not like Katie and I have been talking for the past 18 months, you know, I followed her in my Facebook group but the change What a difference from then to now. I mean like a different person At least the part of you that I can say tremendous you. Yeah. Yeah, like, um I don't know. Communist confidence Oh, yeah, thank you. Yeah, do you have things that you think you still need to work on? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it'll be a work in progress for a while So right now I'm actually planning a solo trip back to Paris because So I have little kids and there was a lot of things that I Couldn't do with my little kids like so I love art and art is a huge part of my life and I didn't go in the Louvre. Oh, no I know I know because my Little list one when it would have been a terrible terrible time. So, um Yeah, I was kind of standing there and thinking And I told my husband I said I should just come back here by myself because he's not obsessed with art either and Back in the day a long time ago. I loved going to places by myself I took solo trips all the time like back when I was a young fearless person and I would love to do that right now. So right now I am in the process of planning a solo trip back to Paris to just go to the Louvre three days and stare at each painting and I don't know just like Do a really boring katie trip that no one else would want to do and do it on my time and so I've I've always felt like If I can go on a solo international trip and if I can go um drive on the highway for a long time by myself and um I think those two things maybe go to the dentist without freaking out Then I will consider myself completely recovered. So I'll let you know when I get back from Paris by myself Sounds like a plan now. Those are things that that's that last three percent five percent That takes a long time because you don't get to go to Paris every year. Yeah, like right now. Um, I need to save up money to go So it doesn't happen for a while. Yeah, you can't practice that you can't like do like Oh, we'll just practice by going to england before we go to know you can't do that Um, and the same you don't have a reason to get on the interstate and drive to chicago every week So yeah, those are the things that just come up when they come up. You'll get there It's gonna. Yeah, and I actually am going to england soon So I kind of will get to practice my husband travels for work sometimes and I sometimes tag along And he's gonna have a long conference while I'm there and I might do some solo exploring while I'm there So that's kind of that'll lead up to that Paris exposure Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of fun Well, I don't want to let you hold you up too too much longer You've shared so much and been so helpful and I appreciate you so much. Thank you for taking your time So let's leave people with with a bit of wisdom one bit of wisdom You think you can give them because everybody always wants to end with the mic drop like the big This is the this is which came for if you had to talk to 18 months ago, katie Yourself in your darkest time. What would you tell her now? probably You got to do two things and it's the first thing is make a plan to Go from the point where you're starting which is Basically, I was starting from like not even being a person Just sitting in my room. Just not doing anything Make a plan a step by step how you're gonna Do your exposures and get out of your room like I did I literally started by walking to my mailbox and So make a plan that's the first one and then the second one is your attitude You have to want to do this. You have to want to actually change You can not change if you want to You can keep living like that. But for me, it wasn't an option. I don't really have depression quote unquote depression but my panic disorder made me very depressed and I I couldn't live like that anymore because That wasn't living so to me it wasn't Maybe someone else is okay with living like that, but That's good advice everybody hits their everybody hits their breaking point and that's different for all of us It looks different from everybody You found yours and that's what motivated the change. So you did tremendous tremendous work, katie I can't even you should be so proud of yourself I wish it was just as easy as a supplement You know what in all honesty me too me too If there was I you know, I say this all the time by giving you a magic 10 words and a pill to take I would totally do that You know, but I'm I'm much prouder of myself than Um for doing this because it was it was really hard and I and I think that's where a lot of that Confidence and calmness comes from now is I went through a year of really hard work and it paid off and I'm really happy now. So Yeah, thank you drew like really thank you No, thank you did the work you get the credit. Yeah, but you you spent all your Thousands of hours putting it out there for free so I could have access to it Look, it sometimes it just makes it feel like I lived what you lived and now I feel like it wasn't for nothing There was a reason for it.  Thank you so much for coming. You're always welcome back If you want to tell us how your your solo trip goes We'll do the next podcast when you're on the top of the Matterhorn by yourself with your goggles on Yeah, I'm scared of heights too. So maybe so maybe not that we'll see Anyway, so if you guys are watching, um I'll post this since you're in the group I'll post it in the facebook group if you're in the facebook group and want to ask questions underneath the post that I put for this episode I'm sure katie will Answer but otherwise if you have questions anywhere else on youtube or whatever, I'll do my best to answer them for you And um, yeah, thanks for coming. I appreciate it Yeah, oh and I would say it's better to ask questions on the thread I guess because I have a lot of people that um private message me and I think like as long as we're talking In the open then everyone can benefit from it Thank you. I appreciate that. So if you're in the facebook group, please Don't bomb katie with private messages. Just ask underneath this video All right guys, I'll be back in a minute to wrap it up katie. Thank you so much. Thank you drew Okay, we are back to wrap things up. I hope you guys got something out of that interview with our new friend katie I know I had a good time having her on the podcast and getting to know her a little bit more Lovely human being eager to help very kind and generous and sharing her experiences and I appreciate that Just a couple of quick takeaways before I end this episode I want you to remember some of the things that katie said katie talked about hitting a point where The pain of staying where she was was greater than the pain of going through this difficult recovery process Everybody hits a point where they decide It is really hard to do these scary things that drew talks about But that's better than staying where I am. So katie had to hit that point And the second thing is she really took the time and I admire katie for this and I thank her for this You know, she was thanking me for her help But she made it really easy because she took the time to become really familiar with what I was writing She felt that it did apply to her So she she became really familiar with it and then she made herself a plan and she executed that plan Without fail it did not matter how she felt and you heard katie specifically say that some of the most valuable days In her recovery journey were the days when she did have panic attacks during her exposures where she did Face some adversity where it was challenging. Those are the days that mattered the most If you take anything away from this podcast episode Aside from the fact that you can do it just like katie did take those things away Have you hit the tipping point where the pain of staying where you are is greater than the pain of going forward with recovery? And are you willing to make that plan and stick to it? Knowing that the bad days are actually the best days when you look back When you get to the other side of the journey So that is episode 224 the anxious truth Thank you again to katie for coming by to share her story if you're watching in the facebook group I will post this video in the facebook group. You can comment below if you're watching anywhere else By all means on youtube or whatever send it a comment and I will do my best to answer the questions for you But that is it. That is the end of the episode. We know this because Music Afterglow by ben drake you guys know by now That's the song at the beginning of the end of every podcast episode You can find ben drake and his music at ben drake music dot com go check him out Tell him that I said hello Thank you ben for letting me use afterglow If you are watching the podcast on youtube by all means subscribe to the channel hit the like button Subscribe hit the notification bell leave a comment Love the comments on youtube if you're listening on spotify or iTunes or some platform that lets you rate or review the podcast Leave a five star rating if you dig it take two seconds and maybe write a quick review It helps other people find the podcast that really helps me out and it helps them out And I thank you so much for that So that is it. We are out of here. Thank you for coming by I will be back next week again I do not know what I will be talking about but I will be here and remember as always This is the way


So we are at the end of our day, thank you to all of you who have made it to the end of the day. We are at our closing remarks section and I am just delighted to introduce our keynote speaker for our closing remarks. Mr. Pete Morocco serves as the Deputy Assistant Secretary and Senior Bureau official for the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations, CSO at the State Department. Many of you have heard us refer to CSO throughout the day and our incredible partnerships in their support for the Resolved Network. I'd also like to give a special thanks to Mr. Vasu Vaitla sitting in the middle who is our main point of contact on a daily and weekly basis and I'd be remiss if I didn't thank him for his consistent support for the Resolved Network. Mr. Morocco before assuming his current position oversaw the Bureau's Europe, Eurasian, Near Eastern, Western Hemisphere and Analysis Planning Program and Learning Office. He oversees CSO's leadership on atrocities prevention including the Atrocities Prevention Board and Interagency Committee consisting of U.S. officials from the National Security Council, the Departments of State, Defense, Justice and the Intelligence Community and others. He has an illustrative career before coming to his current position and we are delighted to invite him here today so please. Thank you, Leigh Ann, for that nice introduction and I'd like to thank the President of USIP Nancy Lindborg for having me here today. They tell me I've only got about an hour and ten minutes to speak before the reception starts so kidding I definitely would not listen to myself talk for an hour so I'll get right to it. The subject that we're talking about today is near and dear to my heart the work that the Bureau does, the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations. This is exactly what we focus on is how we can take evidence and put it into action and have impact. So this is a meaningful and relevant discussion to a lot of the policy and a lot of the decisions that we're making today. This year's focus on innovation is important. It's exciting to see the Resolve Network discussing actionable research. Our mission is to anticipate, prevent and respond to conflict. This includes early detection of violent extremism and our focus is evidence-based analysis and expeditionary diplomacy. And when I say expeditionary diplomacy I'm talking about the Secretary of State saying we want to get our swagger back. He wants to see us back in the field and that's exactly what we're doing. But we can't just go there. We actually have to take something valuable with us. So CSO, we are nimble, we measure for impact. We're the State Department's surge capacity in conflict zones in fragile states. Our methods are rigorous and proven. Our reports are based in evidence and action and not personal inflection. We don't do advocacy and we always arrive with an exit strategy. This afternoon I'm happy to report that this is exactly what our focus is on. And I heard a couple of interesting remarks there at the beginning was research for impact. I can tell you, for instance, we don't do literature reviews anymore. And I know that in the past there's been a lot of questions about do you do research for the sake of research or research for the sake of having an effect. And I can tell you unequivocally that we are there to have impact. So let's talk about the big picture. And I think the big news that we have right now is that we have a new government-wide stabilization strategy launched in May 2017 and recently completed. It's called the Stabilization Assistance Review. I've seen a few heads nod. We affectionately call this the SAR for those of you who are addicted to government acronyms. In the past, many humanitarian and stabilization efforts morphed into needs-based development assistance. This was sometimes with no discernible national security priority. Across the board, we're being much more selective about our engagements, more targeted in our approach, and much more disciplined in our spending. The U.S. government cannot serve as a world's policeman and we are not nation building. Not every conflict or failed state warrants U.S. intervention. And there are some cases, however, where another state's internal conflict and instability threatens our national security. But if it's not a national security priority, if we don't have reliability and effectiveness of the local partners, if we don't have security of the operating environment, if we don't have the opportunity for burden sharing with our partners, if there's not potential for progress towards predetermined political objectives, we're not doing it. Rather than maximum dollars out the door, we must focus on targeted approaches to sustainable assistance. Where there's an issue in security sector reform, we train the trainer. And where the issue is promoting defections or countering violent extremism, we identify locally legitimate actors. To do this, local context is critical. Culturally sensitive approaches are necessary for long-term stability. We must avoid inadvertently exacerbating conflict and having unintended consequences. And we also, as they mentioned earlier, have to monitor for progress in these environments. Innovation to this theme, I'm actually very excited about something that we're doing at CSO. We're launching a new hub for forecasting conflict trends. We provide data visualization to the Secretary that tracks events and pinpoints risk. We look at media trends, hate speech, fake news, election violence, extremist ideologies, political turmoil, and malign influence. We can layer this with monitoring where there are resources or people from other countries that are entering these spaces. We look at the drivers of conflict for early warning. We spot for leaders and losers. We look for affinity, dependence, and dominance. This technology platform allows the Bureau to connect to a diverse range of sources. That includes partners outside the U.S. government. And they're willing and able to bring us vital data that populates our models and enhances our forecasting. This hub captures emerging trends in violent extremism and disseminates information very quickly. We need to be creative and nimble and use today's technology for early action to prevent conflict and atrocities. Understanding trends online can prevent early warning for impending conflict. The hub will draw insight from social media and open sources, but we can't do this on our own. We have to learn from you. We have to learn from other people in the community. Innovation in government is not just leveraging new technology. It's how we partner with the private sector and partners like Resolve. It's also innovating our missions and recognizing how we need to improve and modernize at all times. And we're happy to announce that we are, in fact, making solutions more inclusive. President Trump signed the Women, Peace, and Security Act into law in 2017, making the United States the very first country to enact legislation on this very important issue. It's now U.S. policy to promote the meaningful participation of women in all aspects of overseas conflict prevention, management, and resolution. So let me tell you what this looks like in 2018. This is not mere politics. This is policy. It is practical. And here's a few examples. Women in many of these communities, they have a much stronger concept of what civil society looked like. They have a lot of information that a lot of the security sector does not directly have. They understand where the risk is and who to watch for, where the at-risk youth are. They have valuable information and contributions, and they often are aware of tools that are needed to deter radical elements, but they don't have access so they're not in power. In many places, many of these women, they can't go to the police, and we need to find ways to facilitate that. So one of the things we're doing is encouraging the communities to have more meaningful roles for women in the security sector, giving them direct roles with the police force. And I'll give you another example that I just saw recently in Kosovo that really troubled me. They're in many small towns in Kosovo. Right now, you have little girls that are prohibited from playing soccer. They're not able to play sports, and this is not something that is tradition. It's not a part of their culture. This is something new. It's from external influence, and the government is extremely unsure how to handle it. And as well, the legitimate Islamic community has recognized that this is not acceptable and they don't understand why this is happening. So how do we carefully address sensitive issues like this at the clash of religion and culture? In the Balkans, we actively engage with regional partners to counter violent extremism, and it's becoming a source of strength for reconciliation between neighbors who are often at odds. This crucial moment for the Balkans, as they work towards a European future, is highlighted by a few major events. The Prespa Agreement recently between Macedonia and Greece is a historic achievement, and we're gonna be supporting the referendum on September 30th. Success in this area is gonna mean huge strides for the region. And intensified normalization talks between Serbia and Kosovo could also give us lots of great new opportunities, but it also comes with some great risk. Also, upcoming elections on October 7th in Bosnia and Herzegovina could lead to an extended period of protracted political uncertainty. My bureau is working very closely with European partners to prevent a political crisis. These dynamics change to present opportunity that is sometimes, I think, confusing to many of the people that are there. And it also gives some radicals, I guess some excitement too. Fighters that are returning from Syria, this is one of my chief concerns, and there's three that I particularly highlight in the Balkans. The fighters that are returning are finding new ways to radicalize online and in prison. And in many cases, we don't have the legal mechanisms in these countries to deal with these individuals appropriately. Unresolved ethnic conflicts are presenting opportunity for these extremists to flourish in the area. And we can't be timid about depriving them the opportunity to do this. House mosques or perigemots are showing up with significant external funding, promoting radicalism, fostering friction with no connection to the local culture at all. We will begin by convening a forum of mayors in November, CVE coordinators, researchers, civil society actors, women, religious leaders and others from around the region. And they're not only gonna discuss CVE best practices, but they're also going to immediately deploy action-oriented programs at the local level. And resolve is critical for our strategy. And this is what we're gonna be relying on them for. One, development of the research basis. Two, provide the local policymakers actionable programs. Three, train the trainers to build local research capacity in the region. The resolve network is a prime example of how we can achieve evidence-based research and empower local partners to sustain their efforts against violent extremism. By grounding policy in local level evidence, the resolve network can facilitate action. Grounded in local realities, this is essential for more effective and sustainable solutions to preventing further radicalization. Now developing the capacity of local partners as I mentioned is critical. We've seen how one-off activities or just dabbling in something can actually come with great consequences. It can be counterproductive, short-lived or much worse. Our best chance of sustainability is in building capacity of local actors to be the frontline partners on countering violent extremism. By connecting the right partners with the best research, our strategy is to build for impact and success. We're excited that resolve is gonna be joining us in this effort. In closing, when we talk about fragile states, we're talking about states who have broken the social contract with their citizens or in some cases they have never truly established what that is and what that responsibility should be. CSO's analysis is highlighting global trends and violent extremism that threaten these fragile states and thus threaten our national security. We have to improve our understanding at the local level and ensure local empowerment. And this will help people solve their own problems where they are. We have a lot of work to do. Ensuring American security and extending American prosperity will require tenacity but this also requires the evidence that we've been talking about today and because we need it to have confidence in our policy and not just hope. I look forward to partnering with the resolve network in this. I look forward to hearing more from many of you at the reception today and I appreciate you having me here today. Thank you.


our community matters. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Deck and we have with us Sam Kalani Kapoor King. He's running for Oha Trustee Large and we are happy to see him run and we want to ask him some questions and help him present himself today. Welcome to the show. Sam, this is not your first show with Think Deck, is it? No, no, it's not. I like being here. It's always fun. Well, you know, we've had very good discussions. In fact, you've organized some shows on Think Deck. I really have to participate in some of them and you were talking about one of your favorite subjects, which is covered in some detail on your website, which I told you I think is very good. That is TMT, a 30-meter telescope.  There's a lot of controversy, a lot of native Hawaiian opposition to that. And you've taken the position. You've been very vocal and strenuous in your support of 30-meter telescope. Can you talk about it? Yeah, I think the number one thing to note, Jay, is there's a lot of native Hawaiian support for TMT.  They feel let down by a lot of elected officials in Hawaii. There was, you know, Governor E. Gay, I think he comes in for a lot of criticism. And I feel, and I share some of it to the extent, you know, I really wanted him to enforce the law and make sure that our democracy stayed strong. But it wasn't just him. There were other people that I was concerned with. The legislature didn't come out and give a strong statement in support of the project when I wanted them to. And I've talked to my Hawaiian caucus that I've told them, hey, guys, you've got to write up letters supporting the enforcement of the rule of law. I mean, it's very important. If you have a movement that says, you know, arresting people is violent, but that movement is engaged in a blockade of a roadway. Blockades are the use of force, right? And so it's like, if I chain myself to your front door and then I'm saying, well, I'm being non-violence, you can't move me. It's like, that's, that's ridiculous, right? You're not going to have a society function in that way. So you've got to have people come out and say that. You got to have elected officials come out and say that's one of the reasons I think it's so important for people to really look at elected officials and say, who's who are the pro TMT people out there, right? Because that's going to be a big deal in moving forward. Whether or not the legislature is paying attention and the governor and keeping pressure on whoever gets elected governor, that's what's going to move the needle. And people need to pay attention to that. The feds are coming in with money now, but that's one of the big things. And the native wine supporters that are out there are going to stay silent if they don't see public officials that are speaking their mind.  People like Milani Neal who started a petition in favor of TMT when she was in high school and somebody threatened to slit her throat and spill her blood on the mountain, right? That was that was the caliber of conversation. That person apologized and it was condemned rightfully so. But that's that's what's out there, right? I mean, people have been kidnapping, you're fighting to kidnap me and all this kind of stuff and they're all skulls with jokes. But I mean, who really thinks they're joking anymore, right? To what extent, when you say something sacred and oh, this is we're never going to change, how far are you willing to go? I don't know. And if the government's not going to enforce the law, if the legislature's not going to come out and say, it's very, very important that, you know, we follow this process, which we did, right? 10 years of process, almost 15 years now of wooing TMT to come here, convincing them to come here, winning the TMT saying, yes, we're going to come to Mount Ikea, then the contested case hearings, then the Supreme Court, then the contested case here again, then the Supreme Court, not even mentioned the EIS process, right, with all the scoping meetings. Now we're doing it again, right? The feds are coming in, more money, more conversations. At the end of that, I mean, I'm predicting and hoping that TMT will get approved again. And I think it's obvious it will, it should, because it's TMT so vital to the national interests, we're keeping the United States at the forefront of astronomy, scientific development, discovery, technological development with all this, you know, the instrumentation that goes into the telescopes. That's really one big thing. It's right. You're developing all these really awesome new tech. And on top of that, there's the investment in Hawaii, right? The perpetuation of my culture as a Hawaiian, as a citizen of Hawaii, of astronomy, natural observation, celestial navigation, those things are equally vital. And that's what TMT graphs. It's beautiful. It's an awesome project. Why would we turn it down except for the falsehoods that have been pedaled about the project, right? And so it's, when that happens, when we go through the process again, you know, and you assume, okay, it gets approved, the arrests are going to be necessary. I mean, people, you know, there's the new management structure amount of care. If people don't know about it, there's a bill that HB 2024 passed in the last legislative session. We've, now we've removed the Board of Land and Natural Resources as the manager of Mauna Kea. The reason we did that was because they had leased Mauna Kea to the University of Hawaii. And people were angry at the University of Hawaii. It was, the University of Hawaii was actually doing a great job. The excuse to get rid of them was they weren't doing a good job on community relations. Okay. I mean, the real issue is they hadn't prevented protests, right? But the protests weren't about management. They were about winning, right? It's movement politics, right? It's about winning. It's about delaying the project, getting attention for these particular issues, which often don't have anything to do with TMT, most of the time, right? They're about sovereignty. They're about broken promises. They're about the overthrow. And many of those issues can be sympathetic. I mean, you know, the racism suffered by Hawaiians in the territory period, especially as like the loss of land to many of people during the Mahelei and all of these time periods during DHL. When DHL was around, people were waiting for homes they never got, then they missed out on the housing boom, something Gene Ward explored extensively and broken promises coverage. Those kind of things are sympathetic. And the legislature allocated a billion dollars towards it in the last session. DHL got $600 million. Settlement with DHL waitlist, $300 million. OHA got another $6 million, right? From $15 to $21, $64 million lump sum, right? All of that money was going towards those issues then. And that's a credit to the conversation we did have in the positive sense. The issue with it is that there's always this gold post moving, right? And that's what movement politics is about. It's about winning and it's about always moving.  So TMT said, okay, five got to come down. And I was like, okay, now you don't want them on the summit. Okay, we're going to move it off to the side. And now, by the way, people are saying, oh, well, we want them only to replace the existing telescopes, which are only on the summit. So you should put it back on the summit. It's like, what, everyone's, it's just gold post. Right. And that's why when you get back to the question of, okay, the feds come in, the feds are, if they approve it, then what's going to happen, right? When the protesters are standing on the road, because eventually they're going to be there unless there's a plan to prevent people from being on the road, which I think would be wise, right? Prevent the spectacle from having in the first place. But if it does, are you, will the legislature, will the governor, will the feds say, we're going to enforce the law? We've gone through the process. And will they stand up for native wines like me and Ambrie, my Hong, Akana Silva, Tyler Trent, right, that have come out publicly and said, this is a good project. This is something we support. This is something we should build. And if they don't, if they're not willing to do that, all of us are just going to stay silent because we don't want to get, we don't want threats, right? We don't want to go on the community and people yell at us, feel like they're empowered to threaten us and bully us. That's the really scary part about not committing to enforcing the law. And so people should keep track of that. And they should vote for me. They should support my campaign if they want that project built, because I will support it for sure.  And I understand where they're coming from. And to be entirely honest, I'm not going to spend all day every day talking about TMT. What I'm going to spend the vast majority of my time talking about is early childhood education, because that's the thing that's really going to better the condition of native wines.  And we can go into it more, obviously, but you asked about TMT, so I want to touch base on it. I do want to give a little update before we wrap TMT and obviously, whatever questions you got. Like I said, the federal government is starting its EIS process. Okay. So the way this works is they start with scoping meetings starting tomorrow. And I think Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, they're going to have meetings on the big island. And they're going to be talking about what should be the scope of our environmental impacts data? What alternatives should we look at? Who should we speak with when we do the EIS process? So this is all just meetings to set up doing the EIS, which will have more meeting. Okay. And then there's also a thing called the 106 process, which is a cultural impact assessment that the feds have to do. And that's a situation where any group that claims an impact will come in and say, well, the feds will say, what do you want? Well, how do we mitigate the impact? And there's often programs, there's more funding, there's, you know, change in the project, whatever it is, that's going to happen. Also, there'll be more meetings for that. So, but right now, everybody, the TMT will probably appear in the news again, because this week there's going to be talk, and people will probably go to the meetings and not testify about exactly what it's about. I plan on going to at least one of these things and saying my piece about the project.  So people should testify if they're on the big island, they should look these up. I know, I can tell you that imuatmplead.org has information about it. And you can check out public information, go check out that organization, see what it's like, see what's on there. That organization is sending out information about it too. I think I've sent out information from my campaign. So definitely check that out and go testify, because it's going to be important. And then there's going to be written submissions too that you can do, and that's important. But that's going to take about two years, maybe a year or two. The other thing, so the feds are coming in. They're starting their process. The other thing that's happening today was the deadline to submit names for the new Mauna Kea Management Board. So like I said, HB 2024 removed BLNR. And what we replaced it with is a thing called the Mauna Kea Stewardship and Oversight Authority, I believe. It's got a new board, and this board has various people on it. So there's like an education specialist, a business specialist. There's a traditional customary practitioner. There's a land use specialist. There's a descendant of a traditional and customary practitioner associated with Mauna Kea. There's a Senate appoint, the Senate sends three names. The governor picks one. The house does. UH sends a name. The telescope sends a name. I think the chancellor of UH, Hilo, gets an automatic position on voting. All these positions are being filled out right now. So I've been trying to find people that are willing to come out and get on this board. And so that's probably going to come up to those, hopefully, confirmation hearing start. And I'm really hoping we can get it confirmed this special session of the Senate. The Senate always meets up to confirm judges. And I'm really hoping and pushing to get it confirmed this year because I want the board to get started, right? If the feds are coming, they need somebody to talk to. I don't want to talk to UH or the DLNR because they're leaving. So let's get the new board in place. There's no reason to wait, right? I mean, it's so funny. It's like, I went to the California Advancement meeting and I was in a room where there were many opponents of the telescope and they expressed alarm to find out that the governor was collecting names and like, oh, well, we need more time. And this is every time there's something it's, oh, okay, we need more time. We need more time. It's the one time that I want government to be efficient or that government should be efficient. I'm like, now we're getting government efficiency. We're actually moving forward and people are like, no, no, we want to take more. Come on. Let's move this, let's move this project forward. It's had, like I said, 15 years of conversation. And I think the amount of misinformation about the project is astonishing. There's not going to be a lot for the feds to talk about. It's only going to be talking about the political landscape, the culture. It's not even a cultural landscape, right? Because there's no cultural injury that you can claim from a factual basis as far as native Hawaiian traditional customary practices. Because we know that there were none that are going to be impacted by TMT, right? And it's important to note, sorry, it's important to note that what we've discussed, and I'm not even sure it was covered as much in the EIS process, but people say Mauna Kea is sacred in it. It's clearly not sacred from a native Hawaiian point of view. And that's one of the things we talked about when I organized the think tech talk, right? The native Hawaiian 200 years ago broke the Kapu religion, the Kapu theocracy that ruled the islands under Kamehameha the first when he united the islands through conquest and he imposed his noversion of the Kapu religion because everybody had their own little one. That was broken by Queen Kalmanu and Queen Keopua Lani eating dinner with Kamehameha the second legal Leo. Kamehameha the second's cousin didn't like that. He wanted it reinstated. Kamehameha the second said no and they had a civil war. I don't know how many people know this, but we had a civil war in Hawaii. I know that nobody knows this.  And then just this past weekend I was at the Battle of Kumu'o on the big island. I went up there and I was on vacation with my kids because we hadn't had a vacation a while there off school. So we went up there. We were doing a historical trip for dad, right? And so I was like, wow, we should go to the Battle of Kumu'o that's on the Kona site. And it's right there and it's right near where the place where Captain Cook died and there's a grave site for Opukaha'ia which is the first native Hawaiian convert to Christianity who actually started the written Hawaiian language, his grave overseas. But anyway, the Battle of Kumu'o is where the civil war ended. And that is where the Kapu theocracy ended. So it's also where we as a nation state, as the kingdom of Hawaii, as a community of Hawaii united by the guys from the island of Hawaii who conquered the state, right? Push my answers off a cliff at New Water. No hard feelings. That battle decided that we will have religious freedom in this country, right? In the kingdom, in this community. You can have your religious beliefs and some people kept their Kapu religious beliefs and that's fine. And some of them, there's many beautiful ones, right? There's a lot of protestors have a Kapu theocracy or a Kapu religion, Kapu ideology where they're trying to blend their lives with nature, right? Try to be sustainable and live within their means. And that's awesome. That's great. Of course, we should honor that and balance those things. But it's like everything, right? I mean, that is why we have religious freedom in the United States, right? That's why I am proud to be an American. And I like the fact that Hawaii is part of the United States because religious freedom is so valued. And we had it in the kingdom. After the Battle of Fumo, we had it, you know, maybe the third eventually laid down a constitution. And it says in the constitution that you will, it's kind of convoluted. It says like, it's a Christian kingdom, but, you know, we won't arrest anybody for believing whatever they want to believe. In other words, we had religious freedom and with the Constitution statewide, the point is to say that something is sacred, like Mounted Care, from a native Hawaiian perspective, and therefore it governs land use and nobody else can talk. That's a violation of my human right. The violation of my rights is a native Hawaiian. It's a violation of my rights as an American citizen, a Hawaiian citizen. And it's just fundamentally unacceptable. It violates my rights under the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People, if you want to go there, right? It's, you can't say that and then come to a public setting and say like, this means you can't talk. No, we can balance these things and we should balance them and we are balancing them. We have balanced them, right? TMT has done that. They've done the work, but, you know, we're going to do some more. I just wanted to add to what you've said, Sam, that, you know, the consortium, the members of the consortium for around the world, from all these academic institutions who are willing to put billions into this telescope have been waiting now 15 by my calculations, closer to 20 years and still no telescope and the gold posts are moving. And the only real agenda of the people who oppose it is to keep on opposing it and delay it and delay it until it falls apart. You know, that's the way oppositions work. You just delay it until the people who want to build the project go away. And it's every indication that that's their intention. We've been through so many procedures and court hearings and arbitrations. And it still goes on now with, you know, this procedure you just described a minute ago. So I'm not optimistic about this. I hope you can do something about it. Is there, is there any, is there anybody else in the board of trustees who feels the way you feel? I don't want to speak for anyone in particular, you know, it's a sensitive topic. The only person I know of who came out publicly, I think, in a civil beat questionnaire was Brickwood Gallateria. He said he supports it. John Wahey used to support it. He came out, he answered his questionnaire, said he was more neutral now. Brendan Lee, same thing. Kalea Kaka, I don't think answered the 2022 questionnaire. Her previous 2018 said she was in favor. I'm not aware that she's changed. But that's, I think there's a lot of people that are in the center, which is why there's no position. But I think that if I lose there's a very, there's a danger that Oha changes its position. It's definitely something people should vote. People should vote for me and they should donate. I got it. But you know, I mean, I don't know why Oha would oppose it. And as with you, in my time in these islands, it's been from 1965. And I have spent a lot of time on Hawaii Island. And until this thing came up with the telescope, I had no idea nobody ever talked about the sacredness of the mountain. There were no cultural connections whatsoever. And all of a sudden, you know, the group started making a fuss about it. And I asked a Native Hawaiian leader of that opposition one time, why are you doing this? And her answer was ready, quote, because we can, end quote, which means we just want to show you that we have the power to do it, not because it's a good idea to oppose it, but just that we have the power. So I hope you can do something about it. I really, I think your your election here is that it's kind of a mandate kind of election in a sense that I agree with you. If you if you don't win, then, you know, what will happen? I think, you know, maybe it's the maybe it's the end of the project in the sense there's no wrong voice out there like yours. Say it again. I'd be very worried. I'm not going to give up, but I'd be worried. I'm very worried already, Sam. Sorry, I've been speaking this singing this song since 2005. It's really bad. We're still, you know, in in controversy over it. The other the other thing I want to ask you about is what about OHA in general, you know, you have been active. You have been writing. I have seen your name Hither and Jan making statements about OHA making statements about the the audit of OHA by the state auditor. And I wonder, you know, if you could comment on your thoughts about the health or lack thereof of OHA as an organization, mind you, it belongs to all of us. It's not limited to Native Hawaiians. I want to make that clear. This went this went to, you know, the Supreme Court, this issue, and I can vote. Everybody in the state can vote. If you're a citizen, you can vote for trustees. It's not limited to just a handful of people. And so, you know, what concerns me is that that the population, the electorate, doesn't fully understand that. And that means that to the extent that OHA has power and money, to the extent that it has, you know, it holds things in trust and land and what have you, it holds it in trust for all of us, ALL, all of us. I don't think people understand that. Can you comment? Yeah, Jay, absolutely I can. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The kingdom of Hawaii was not a race-based kingdom. And I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding people have. And it ties directly to OHA. It's a straight line, right? OHA was created because there was this sense of guilt about the overthrow, about racism. And there was legitimate issues about racism, especially in the territory period, the Massey Trial, right? And there was this sense of rebirth. It was especially after Hokulea, right? And really beautiful rebirth. I mean, I love Hokulea. I volunteer down, you know, with friends of Hualoa and Hikion Lea, or it's called Hualoa. There's one of the canoes, friends of Hikiloa and Hokulea. And it's beautiful. It's awesome. I love the voyaging community. It's fantastic. But it got caught up in identity politics of that era, right? And it's continued to today. But the thing that's important for people to understand is that people feel guilty that like, oh, OHA is a Hawaiian thing, right? It's not for me. Therefore, I'm not going to vote even though I have the right to. And what people need to get is that is not historical. That is anathema to what the kingdom of Hawaii is all about. Remember that before Cook mapped the islands, right? I won't say discovered because the Polynesians discovered Hawaii, right? Cook was the first person to write down on a map where it was and then send it through Russia to Britain, right? Before then, the islands were not named anything. They didn't have a name. As far as I'm aware, I have not heard if the people coming from Tahiti had a specific name for this area. And I assume I want to look for it. But as far as I know, the first written word for the archipelago was the sandwich island, right? Before that, we all just called them to our separate island. We fought wars all the time, right? Hawaii was conquered by the guys from Hawaii Island. That's why the states call Hawaii and there's an island called Hawaii. And when Kamehameha conquered the islands, he did so with the assistance of John Young and Isaac Davis, two people that were not born in the Sandwich Islands prior to 1778. He appointed them elite. He made them into chiefs, right? They were subject even to the cop with the archipelago and they were to gain the benefits of it, too. And the reason for that was because of the content of the character, not the color of their skin, right? That's the fundamental easiest way to say it. It was because of the contributions they made to society. John Young was one of the longest running confidants of Kamehameha. His son, Guyoniata, was signed the second constitution, I think, and he was the co-regent with Kamehameha III. Queen Emma was a descendant of John Young, right? We have had a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society right from the very creation of the unified kingdom that is now called the State of Hawaii. The guys that have been, you know, we've had people that were not born here prior to 1778 in government all over the place as just Supreme Court from the very beginning, right? The missionaries often get a bad rap when you actually read about the missionaries. They were trying to be very helpful. I mean, people are angry at their descendants, but the reality was their descendants were born in the kingdom and they were subjects of the kingdom. Anybody born in Hawaii, regardless of race, was a subject of the kingdom. The first constitution says that we were all created with one blood on this earth. That's the first constitution. The Kamehameha III Constitution says all people born of one blood. There was no race-based laws. The only race-based institution was the monarchy, and even that was actually class-based. It was meant to prevent anybody except the elite from becoming the chief. The real point is that everyone votes in a law because it's about writing the wrongs we feel have happened in the community. It's about bettering the condition of Native Lions. That's a cullion of everybody in the state. And the way to better the condition of Native Lions is not to fight over whether or not the overthrow happened or try to only get more money all the time. It's to focus on early childhood education. That is the thing to talk about. That's the thing that everyone should take away from this in the last 10 seconds, where we talk the whole time about TFT, but the thing to remember is early childhood education is what I'm about. It's what my campaign is about. It's what Oha should be focusing on. There's an excuse where people say, oh, well, Kamehameha schools is handling it. And that's true. And Oha should partner with Kamehameha schools, Queen Lilial Kalani Trust. People that are focusing on it. There's tons of synergy that can happen there. And it should, because it's a powerful, powerful public policy. I mean, it strengthens families over generations. It reduces incarceration rates. It stabilizes incomes. It's amazing. And these are all things that are plaguing the Native Hawaiian community suffering from the highest rates of poverty. Early childhood education is where it is at. So what would you do as a trustee of Oha to improve Native Hawaiian education? I totally agree. It's very important. But how? Well, you know, as an Oha trustee, your job is not to get into the nitty gritty weeds, right? Your job is to work on those partnerships, right? And that's what I'd be focused on. I mean, you, I do research, my office be doing research on policy papers and work with the administration, be like, this is the focus one. And you got to work with the other trustees to get the votes, right? You got to finagle. That's the deal. And then you go and you develop partnerships in the community. Go to the legislature and you say, this is what we want to focus on. What are you guys doing now over here at the executive office on early childhood learning? You know, what are you guys doing over here at Kamehameha Schools? What are you doing over here, Queen Lilo? Okay, can we combine forces? Can Oha provide data? Can Oha do surveys? Can we get, you know, we have $21 million. Can we spend some of that on this? Can we get, you know, programs from an innovative nonprofit? Can we, can we look at a grant program that's specifically for this and you can, you know, get matching funds or Kamehameha Schools or something like that, right? It's that bringing out some new thoughts, new ideas, new perspective and just more resources, right? People saying Kamehameha Schools are handling. It's like, okay, but why does that mean you don't do more? If you're trying to better the condition of Native Lions, and that's a decision we've made. This is what this entity is doing, focusing on that particular community based on the race data we have. Never mind the complications about it. Not every Native Hawaiian student gets into Kamehameha School. Exactly. Well, no, every Kamehameha School does more. They do outside their own schools also. Okay. I mean, you know, it would be nice to see every single Native Lion kid have the kind of education you're talking about and build a community that's capable of advancing their, their, their, their group and the state, both. Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. And early childhood education is about, I mean, we're talking way before KS, right? We're talking preschool. We're talking zero to three years old. We're talking getting kids into daycare five days a week in the morning at minimum. This is getting kind of in the weeds, but then there's also an element for parent support, right? You have someone go to the house, talk to the parents, meet them and connect the learning at home with the learning at school, right? So we're, we're zero to three. We're before you even get the DOE, right? And KS has a lot of that stuff and we can do more and we should do more because the evidence out there is that it's a hugely powerful thing. Everybody right, left, middle, any side of political spectrum, you can agree that this is something that's valuable resources. You know, if you, you don't want to zero some game, but if it is, we should shift resources from somewhere to this, right? Early childhood education is where it's at. I mean, I've even talked to, you know, people about TMT, right? People are saying, TMT right now gives college scholarships to native Hawaiians on Big Island. That's part of the package. And I was thinking, you know, that's, that's, I get that, but maybe you should start looking at early childhood education. If you're going to bring this program in, let's start looking at that. Well, let's talk about bringing, you know, we only have a few minutes left. Let's, let's talk about bringing these things together.   So there's money. And then there's land. There's land in Kaka Aka Mukai, you know, which I guess Apokrame gave to OHA finally.  If you look at some of the things in the audit report and things that you've identified in your writings, but if you put it all together, you know, Kaka Aka, education, money, and the influence of the Native Hawaiian community, how do you, how do you kind of connect all those things? How do you make those things work? Because right now I would have to say, and you can, you know, tell me more about this, I'd have to say that OHA has not been effective in terms of helping the Native Hawaiian people. It has not been effective in jeoparding the land that it controls. It has not been effective in spending the money that it gets, which is now increased by, what do you say, six million per year from the ledge, plus 600 million as a lump sum payment in the last session. I mean, it has not been effective in spending that money. And people do not feel that it has been effective. But, you know, tell me how effective or ineffective has it been? What did the orders say about it? What is your platform on that? And what can you do about it if you are elected? Well, in the last two minutes, Jake, I think the key thing, number one thing is I support one of my, you know, my biggest heroes is Kaylee Ikeena, right? Just support whatever he's doing. He's got his eye on the money. He's very smart. He's very Akamai and all that stuff. I'd support him 100%. When things like the audit come out, I would push OHA to release everything. I mean, I was ashamed that OHA didn't release its executive session minutes to the auditor. I don't know what the argument was. I would be fascinated to find out, but that is astonishing to me to say that to have the audacity and not release minutes to the state, I don't even understand why you would do that. And then the audit was never finished. The state auditor wouldn't do any more work because he wasn't getting the information he's requested. I applaud him for that. And he shouldn't have that. I supported his efforts entirely because it was ridiculous. I still don't get that.  It's, you know, you protect, you protect the trust, build the trust, spend the trust, right? And protecting the trust is about keeping up on those audits, you know, showing people that OHA is spending the money wisely by protecting, you know, doing its due diligence and then developing that trust that early childhood education bit is critical to it all actually. Because if you start doing that policy and you start collecting good data on it, right, you also start doing randomized control trials, you can show people that it is going to have an impact, right? You can show people that you're now focusing on something that really counts. OHA, usually they go to the legislature, all they do is ask for money or they're suing somebody, right? It's like, well, okay, what are you doing? That's why I think pushing for early childhood education will show people, okay, now the organization is doing this. I can identify what they're doing to better the condition of native Hawaiians instead of just saying, oh, give us more money. Giving OHA money doesn't better the condition of native Hawaiians in and of itself, right? That money is, comes from all the taxpayers, which includes native Hawaiians. And the state of Hawaii spends lots of money that benefits native Hawaiians, right? I benefit from the roads. I benefit from the security. I benefit from the cell phone network that's made possible through the regulations, right? All these things benefit all of us. So just giving money to an organization that may or may not be doing something effective with it is not helping better the condition of native Hawaiians. So that early childhood bit, focusing on that, getting the data on it, I think that helps build that trust also, right? You couple that with the audits, you show that, you know, if you'd like Kakaaka Makai, right? You go to the legislature, say, you know, we want to develop poems there, right? I think we should do that. I think we should build it as a really awesome live, work, play community that everybody can come into, not just for people that live there, right? Should be opened up, parking for the surfers, build that playground I've been wanting to build, world-class playground, right? All this great stuff. And you say, okay, we're going to make money off of it. We're going to make as much money as we can. And we're going to spend it on early childhood education, right? And I would, I wouldn't necessarily say only that, but you show that you have these programs that are focused on doing that, bettering conditions, as opposed to just saying, oh, well, we want more money because we deserve it. Or because of the overthrow, which is even worse. I mean, that was one of the ledge in their bill, right? They say, oh, the overthrow was the impetus for all. It's like, come on, like this, this is 100 years ago now, and you're, you're still talking about this thing. And how is that, how is talking about that, creating that division, bettering the condition of native wine? I don't see the connection. Talking about early childhood education, now I see a connection, partnering with community schools, partnering with cleanly little colleges. I see a connection. That's awesome. Let's do that. That's what I do. Sam, you come from a really wonderful family, a family that goes way back into Hawaii history, who cares about Hawaii history. I know your family. And then at the same time, I, but I didn't know about you. And I ran up a little bit and found that you have been the ultimate altruist. You've been a community person, not only in Hawaii, but in so many other places. So many organizations, so much, so much giving that you've done in your relatively young life. It's quite extraordinary that the level of altruism that you have, that you have expressed and accomplished. So the question I put to you is, you know, why this? Because you have, you have helped so many people over your life in so many ways and so many organizations. I know you're passionate about it. Okay. But you know, this is going to be, I think, if you win, you're going to have a certain level of frustration about this organization. That's clear in your writings and clear in this conversation here today. Why do you want to do this? I mean, bettering the condition of Native Hawaiians is obviously worth doing. I mean, if that improves the entire state of Hawaii, right, we all win when we do that. Number one, number two, OHA has lost all this credibility. There's corruption. There's, you know, there's incompetence that was exposed in the audit. I can, I can do something about it. Okay. You know, the thing, the thing I tell myself is that I want to make a positive impact in this world now. I don't want to do it later. Right. This is a way to do that. I can, I can win this election. I can talk to people about what I want to do. I can move this in a positive direction. I can do this. There are other things that I can do, and I'm doing those, right? I'm executive director of Ohanaki Loho, who, you know, starred here. Everyone should check out, by the way, it's a Native Hawaiian group that supports astronomy and space programs. I'm executive director of Imua TNT, executive director of I know a foundation for protecting human rights for Native Hawaiians, right? I do these things because I care about them. And I can do this office Hawaiian affairs thing as well. And it can push us towards this direction of unity in our community where we're moving beyond just focusing on divisive issues like reparations, race-based governance, and towards something that is bettering the condition of Native Hawaiians like early childhood education. Oha can do that. I can run for that office. I know how to do it, right? I, we're doing, I guess I don't want to, you know, to my own horn, but we're doing very well to start an advertiser and endorse this, right? I can do it, Jay. I mean, it's, I think if fundamentally at some level, it's that I have a, I like to explain to people because nobody, you know, not many people know my Hawaiian name, Kalai Kopua from, from before, right? It's, it's a, it's a name that I've embraced in a lot of ways with, you know, Hawaiian class and stuff like that. But it's, it's become a nickname now as I'm running in and I've talked to more people about it. And it's always been my name. It's my grandfather's name for me, right? My family has always known. And what it means is the chief with mana, right? And there's a lot of ways you can go with a name like that. And I've chosen to take on that responsibility, that kuleana for our community. And one of the ways you do that is by getting involved in politics. I mean, that's where a lot of the money and the power is. So I'm going to do that, right? I, I, for, for evil to triumph, all you need is for good people to do nothing. And I'm trying to be a good person. I can do this. So I'm doing it, right? It's an area that can touch on so many things I care about. And so I'm going to, I'm going to do it. It's just okay. Okay. I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're going to do it. And I wish you well. I hope you succeed in not only in being elected, but in, in, you know, achieving the agenda you've been talking about. And I hope we can get together again, Sam. And we can compare notes on these and other issues that, that arise within the native Hawaiian community, within the Oha community. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.