Welcome back it's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa away from off the press we'll be looking at something that's been trended you know the hashtag horrible bosses but specifically we're looking at the employees right and we have a guest there joining us a messy algo let us give me a bit of a background there an employment relationship is an employment relationship is established between employer and employee when the president performs work or services under certain conditions in return for remuneration with the very laws government employment related matters in Nigeria some of these employment laws include the Niger labor act the pensions act the industrial training act employee compensation act trade unions act among others now toxic walkplaces in Nigeria have been a hot topic on the internet with many revelations about the negative employee-employer relationships how much of protection does the employment law provide for the Nigerian worker what does the label act say about employees right we have a messy algo joining us good morning thanks for joining us on the breakfast and plus TV Africa thank you very much i'm happy to be here yeah so for quite some time now this hashtag and horrible bosses you know has been trending all over the internet but let's just talk about the employer-employer relationship ordinarily it should be a win-win situation you know so we have various laws in Nigeria would you say the Nigerian law provides enough protection you know for the employers yes um the Nigerian laws we have beautiful laws in Nigeria that provides for protection for employees so the only problem with Nigeria is that um they lack implementation of these laws and the employees don't even know about these laws they don't know about the protection they have under these laws so employees are just too quick to sign contracts of employment they are just too quick to begin a position without checking the integrities of what that position or what that company or establishment has for them so that is why we have such situations and employees may just be there you know trying to like find ways to know their rights when they would have just checked their contract of employment or check the laws that should govern those employment contracts well okay well some of the concerns that's been raised as regards i mean of course in recent time even up until yesterday you had different sector of the economy you had the entertainment as a yesterday uh nollywood was also in the space with the horrible boss experience and what have you that hashtags they were ongoing and do you think that the laws that we have at niger just like we have mentioned in that background uh still you know protect and talks about what spells out um some of these issues are some a lot of persons have raised on the internet majorly you know there's there's a word for a toxic workplace and that's been it so you have issue where uh employees are verbally abused you have also going going on so do you think that this loss that we have um cuts across and protects uh the employers from this kind of employees from this kind of um hazards well yeah the laws protect and now beautifully we have the national industrial courts where people can go and um institute actions against the employees or workplaces so um apart from the toxic workplaces the verbal abuse the national industrial court rules also provides for situations of sexual harassment in workplace so they may not they may not be in law like the labor act the employee compensation act they may not be any specific law regards regarding the sexual harassment in workplace for example but the national industrial court rules provides for steps even as little as um verbal communications not just touching not just rape but where um an employee an employer is making some kind of verbal sexual um advances to the employee or maybe just sending new pictures to an employee those cases can arise and an employee can use that to sue or institute an action against an employer so so once you say that you know the laws that we have are not very clear I mean um very explicit and like very exact and definite about some of these issues just like you have mentioned now and if you look at the hashtag to spit on going uh not necessarily having so much of sexual harassment but mostly you have issue of mild treatment you have issue of verbal abuse confrontations and the list is almost endless if you want to look at it don't you think that at this point we'll begin to say that the Nigerian law the labor acts these laws are very you're talking about the issue of ambiguity now well yes so because the most of the laws we have just govern um compensation um money how salaries are paid and all of that so they don't govern these parts just as you said they don't really um stipulate they are not clear as to toxic environment so I think there's another part um the laws our national assembly and law makers should look into because we just have some of these things are just embodied in the international labor convention which is not yet ratified in Nigeria so it doesn't have any legal basis because it cannot be realized not an enabling law so we just the national industrial courts can just make reference to it even though nowadays the national industrial court um adopts it because of their powers they have on that section 254c of the constitution that it can for best practices they can rely on international standard for best practices but even at that it is inconsistent with the constitution because it is not an enabling law yet so I think that first of all if the international labor conventions can be ratified in Nigeria that's the first step to making this um these issues concerning horrible buses and toxic environments to be placed to be legal in such a way that um employers will not have a right to say okay so you don't have any case for me you don't have a case against me even if I do this or do that so I think that's the first step ratifying the international labor conventions in Nigeria and also making specific laws concerning these things so that employer employees will have a right of their own and then um making these laws known to employees because some of us some of them I'm an employee myself so the employees if you're not careful you may just um feel like okay I don't have any right I just have to manage and coupled with the economic situation in Nigeria an employee may be scared to say oh I should I institute an action I may not have any job elsewhere waiting for me so those are the things that should be put in place the government should put them in place make specific laws clear laws that will make enable the employees to have to know their rights and know that these things are clearly stated for them but then I believe it should be a two-way street it should be a win-win situation employer-employee relationship which is where the human resource management you know you know come in because most times and most people just believe is I work for you at the end of the month I should get paid shouldn't it go beyond just them working for pay to relationship of knowing about the mental health other aspect of the employer or even the employer so there will be some sort of a symbolic relationship yeah I got you so um aside being a legal practitioner I'm also a certified human resource person do not seriously practice yet so but I understand the fact that for establishments that have human resource persons they ensure they try as much as possible to ensure that they know the needs of the employees as regards the needs of the employers because definitely some places are some work places are toxic not necessarily because of the employer the employees are toxic you know amongst themselves so you see an employee an employee who is maybe a superior to the employee so a fellow employee and it makes the place so terrible and for the subordinator exactly so and it's not necessarily so the person can come out to say oh my boss is horrible but when you look at it it's not really the boss it's a fellow employee line manager exactly so if some places cannot afford human resource persons some places just feel okay there's no need to have a human resource person so um in such situations I've worked in a place where or should I say I'm working in a place where um we have to though we have human resource persons but sometimes depending on how maybe the output of work is we have to go outside to consult to bring in consultants you understand to like check the needs of the people to check the needs because when you realize that the output of work is not as as it used to be you want to know what's wrong with these employees so in such situations so it's a two-way thing apart from the laws these employers should be sensitized in a way that they should know that okay the mental health of your employees is also something that you need to put into consideration if you want your business to grow and some just feel oh I pay you so no matter what I do you have to work for me the way I want you to work for me so besides the laws that govern these things they should be sensitization and there should be enforcement agencies to put that will put in place these things to say okay that like to look into the way we have NAVDAC that look into manufacturing and other regulations we have an agency that regulates this employee and employees not just the labor union you understand you just have um other agencies that will look into these and maybe go from companies offices to offices to make sure that these things are put in place for the employees okay um let's also look at it you know in the course of this conversation you've talked about the fact that a lot of Nigerians are not in the know of their rights uh you know as a Nigerian worker can you please take us through you know what a worker should know now let's not forget that you have the private sector yeah you also have the public sector of course you're talking about those who are working for the government and those who are in the private sector uh can you please take us through what you know Nigerian workers in different sectors should know okay so um the labor act is one that governs you know everybody and then apart from the employee conversation act which is basically about um employees who got injured or have any issues arising from work now basically in the workplace especially nowadays we have the contract of employment which governs so when you have a contract of employment that has all of those things stated there which things your period of work your salary your pension and every other things there every other thing you're supposed to be doing in the workplace so everything has to be clearly stated out in a contract everything yes so um due to the fact that most establishments have the HR personnel right now so even if it's not stated in your contract of employment there will still be um a child yes an HR policy manual that will stipulate it for you but the labor act also stated that it states that if you're not giving such there should be a written statement within three months of employment and that written statement should contain all of those things that you're supposed to know should contain the name of the employer it should contain the your work prescription it should also contain your duration of work if you be working from Monday to Friday or Monday Monday to Saturday and the labor act also provides that for every week for you you are entitled to one day rest so you see some persons work from Monday to Saturday and they complain some work from Monday so the the labor act stipulates that you have to work if you're working for a week you have to have a 24 hour rest that's one day so luckily some offices have Monday to Friday where you have the weekend through yourself so but the mistake we often make as employees is we have a contract of employment most times when people complain about um working extra hours over time and you don't read your contract of employment because I I know that there are some contracts of employment that stipulates that Monday to Friday and every other time where you're supposed to work if the need arises something like that there's a clause that is usually put in there and then employees come to complain about working overtime so that is why it's good to for employees to know that okay before you sign any contract of employment you need to look at the integrities of that contract you're signing before you have them because there's an exception to everything stated in the most of the things stated in the labor act that where there's a contract of employment and it has been signed by the employee and the employee has a copy of that contract of employment then some of the things within the labor act will not apply what will apply will be the contract of employment okay but where it is not clearly stated about overtime for instance you're just told on the maybe you're supposed to do a 40 hour week or something and sometimes because of a lacuna here and there you're expected to do some more and it's not clearly stated you have a right to demand for an overtime payment or something yes you do you have a right to demand is under the labor act you have a right to demand for working extra hours you even have a right to demand for like the labor act also provides that where you're working for more than six hours in a day you have a right to more than one hour break within that space of time unless there's something there's there are circumstances where that would it would be impossible for the one hour break to apply so if you're working for more than six hours in a day you should be able to take one hour break and labor act specifically stated that it shouldn't be less than one hour so if you're working like that you have a right to demand for your pay all right okay so let's begin to you know look at the issue of salaries and payment I mean we talk about the issue of minimum wage and if you are in Nigeria if you've been following you know the conversation you know that the Nigerians especially those in the public sector have been talking about 30 000 minimum wage and some states are saying oh we don't have resources to pay we cannot pay minimum wage because states are differently endowed and states have different capacity now the law that surrounds or that talks about minimum wage does it also you know protect or does it cross across you know the private sector or it's just limited to you know the public sector for that is just limited to the public sector so there are no laws for it yes when you look at it holistically it provides for just the public sector so the private sectors they have because you see some employees ending 20 000 and they do so much work it's just like a place in Lagos you see employees ending like 20 000 and in a month they spend more than that in transportation so it's it's it's applies to just the private sector if you look at it holistically okay but then again like I said before it is a two-way street the employees have their right and so do the employers you know so just how do you strike a balance how do you also ensure that the employers too are also protected from maybe some on wanton act or some on scrupulous act by some employers who may just want to use some loopholes and may not necessarily want to do the work okay so um basically the rights that the employees have at the moment is just with suit actions in court that is what they have at the moment so and the national industrial court is a kind of it's kind of liberal in the sense that it makes so much noise it has so much protection for the employees so the only problem is just an enjoyment factor in the sense that when someone thinks of how to institute an action how long it will take before that action is determined and all of that the person may just not know you think I was asking about the employer themselves oh the employer yes okay so the only things the employers can do is to have a good welfare package for the employees and that includes having a HR personnel in the system so because when the there's another thing about sensitization because if these employers are not sensitized a lot of employers just feel that they're doing employees a favor by even giving them employment so if they are not sensitized or if there are no injustices that will enforce these things the employers with these things will keep going on and on and on so it is something that law should be clearly stated for the employers enforcement injustices should be there to ensure that these things are put in place and then the employer should there should be something that before you open an establishment or before you start a business you should be able to have things in place for the employees so because there are no eyes looking at these employers they just feel like oh they can do anything we want to do and at the end of the month whatever we give to the employees you take it so how do you put a human face to it because sometimes issues are bound you know people might feel disgruntled somehow they feel maybe they are not actually earning enough or maybe their pay is not commensurate with what they do sometimes they just may want to stay off work because they feel they are doing more than enough in that case what should the employer be doing okay just like I mentioned earlier I'm in a place where we have to get a consultant to come in you know it's different when you're when you have someone in house that already knows these things the person may not be you know too quick to make decisions and all of that so we had to go the extra mile to get an outside to consult someone to come in and look at the situation so the person was able to come in look at the employees check what they are going to listen to them and at the end of the day there was a kind of win-win balance you understand so the welfare of the employees where I'm provided for at least not it's not optimally but I will say 80% and everybody it's a win-win situation the employee is happy the employers are happy there's a good output at work so that is that's one of the things that employers can do in such a situation and also checking for them to also have because like I said earlier employee employers don't have HR persons they just feel okay if you're ahead of management you can do the HR work so just do it so that's where we have the HR personnel well let's let's also look at it I like us you you know I think that we have actually stayed with the legal you know part of what the law says and the rights that are protected unfortunately a lot of persons do not understand your right as employees and you know on the other hand you also have employers not understanding you know what they ought to do and so it becomes you know a jumble and all of that so a lot's going on but let's look at some of the concern because for the past two days I think it's something that might just go on for a very long time you have this space being boss with horrible bosses and experiences you have one of the issues that the spin raised and dominated the space is the issue of you have employers beating up employees and how do you address that the first question that's number one the big question for me would be how did we get to that point as a people well I would I would start by saying is the economy yeah because economy what sense is it something that just happened 2022 or something that's been going on you know the thing is when you look at Nigerian situation a lot of people are how they're looking for jobs and an employer can just say oh if you live here you may not get another job in the next two years three years you understand so they have that kind of um I will I say um orientation yes that's what I think did I think they have that kind of orientation that yes I'm doing you a favor by putting you here so anything I tell you to do you have to do it so the and then the employees also have that fear that oh I should just manage this one I have instead of just leaving so it takes someone who has a lot of courage to say okay I'm leaving this place even if I don't have a job I'll sit at home till I get a better place so that's I think that's the orientation a lot of people have because people are out there looking for jobs and they feel okay if you leave within the next one hour another person is there to replace you that doesn't mean you have to stay at the job when you know that um you're not actually getting your out most of them you're almost bullied sometimes we've heard of of cases where employees have been threatened and they've been beaten by supervisors and bosses just because um the employees feel that um where they are working at that particular time it just be their last moment of hope so that is why we have the courts for people so um I think the the basic thing is just for are we talking about the regular courts yes special courts no we have the national industrial court that deals with cases about employer-employee relationship so it's so wild their power their powers are so wild so they have powers concerning these assaults battery um compensation sexual harassment as I said earlier so anything that concerns employer-employee relationship you take it to the national industrial court and as I said earlier they are so liberal with um um employees because they are basically there for the interest of the employees so but the issue we have in Nigeria today is a lot of people don't want to institute actions against the employer in fact a lot of people don't want to even institute actions for their rights for the enforcement of their rights so let's let's just depart from the employee relationship even just your right as a human being yes people a lot of people don't want to and a lot of people find it hard to you know talk to a lawyer about your rights a lot of people just want to swallow it in and say oh I don't want any problems let me just leave with it so I think the basic thing is for if employees will stand up to your right to say okay this is what I'm supposed to do this is there are a lot of ways to institute illegal actions against these employees these employers and in such situations you realize when two or three employers start doing that employers will take it back sit and want to they will try to um meditate again to know what's going on no but you know like this particular case that I mentioned you have a case where the boy made this complaint and he talked about the fact and we're talking about employees now employers beating up employees and in this particular case he was handed over to the police and the police mal handle him you know in the sense that they use woods you know to hit him and to a point where he had it gone pointed to his head um quite sad but you have also mentioned the fact that we do not have specific laws that the laws that we have just talks about compensation you know salaries and wages contracts and does not necessarily cater for some of these cases issue of battery however it is abuse which at the end of the day you have a common language called you know toxic workplace or you know toxic bosses and supervisors and what have you so it's really really sad we're hoping that beyond may because every may it seems like we get to talk about workers they boy it feels like the workers they's always talked about those in the public sector and maybe the private sector is not even carried on you know carried along in all of this but moving forward now um what would you say would be the way forward for us as a people now following the particular space joining the conversation and reading twitter comments from some like just some people say instead of coming to the internet or coming to twitter that's the micro blogging you know platform and begin to rant why don't you quit do you think that you know quitting a job you know because you are in a toxic workplace or you're in a place where the working conditions are not favorable solves the problem well i don't think it does because that's that's the thing we talk about talking out speaking out so i think um yes if you if you feel the place threatens your life your mental health because a lot of you today we are going into serious depression and that is one area that has been overlooked so i i feel you can quit but that doesn't stop you from speaking out because yes this um the hashtag or the process it started um it was just one person who brought up the conversation others joined and all of that so if those people didn't speak up i don't think we'll be here today having this conversation absolutely so i i think um no matter what even if you quit you should speak up because the next person can still suffer that thing you're suffering so it shouldn't be a case of you just saying you want to stay quiet you just want to quit yes you can move away for your own self for your life but you should also talk about it speak to someone who can help the next person that will be coming after you so so what would be the way forward now i mean we understand that we're human beings for me i feel like um toxic is no place is actually toxic for instance this place is not toxic it can't be toxic on its own if we are not toxic people so when you have toxic people come to a place it becomes toxic and sometimes you have situations when you have the boss i mean when you say the big boss the big boss might just be the big boss doing his things but you also have uh those in in the line of you know duty um because they are toxic it begins to trickle down and it makes every other person very uncomfortable so how how do we now and address it understanding that there are a lot of people involved in causing toxic you also look at government what laws can be put in place you look at uh the employees themselves because you can't take them out of the equation like one would say you have some employees who would frustrate the efforts of the bosses or those on the line so in all of this how do we address the situation so we become we can become you know a better country because if we become a better country then we have a better workforce we have a better you know productivity level becomes you know top notch and everybody's happy okay so i think the way forward for the government we should have specific laws that provide for these things and then as i said before there should be specific agencies that will delete this um companies establishment of companies or whatever and then going down to the workplaces i think there should be an orientation for everybody so that is why the HR persons are important because there should be a kind of a prison of people's mental health because you see a situation whereby an employee can bring his own personal issues to the workplace you know maybe the person has issues at home something frustrating the person and the person brings it down to the office and uses it to frustrate the next person under him or her so in that situation you see that it goes down and then the employees themselves are the ones causing the problem in the workplace so there should be an orientation the government should make specific laws there should be agents enforcement agencies for those people and then the employee the employer should ensure that their workplace is a very conducive conducive place and in the sense that they should make sure no matter how little they should make sure they try and get an HR person they'll be in charge of human welfare in such situation even whether annually or quarterly there should be a kind of appraisal of people's mental health check people speak to them privately know what they're going through because employer employers just feel okay come to the office do my work and go so that's thank you so much mercy indeed it has actually been a very wonderful discuss because an employer's employee they all need to know their rights it is a win-win situation it is about managing relationships at the workplace even beyond the workplace so when you take it home when you come back to the office you ensure that everyone is happy at the end of the day sure yeah mercy agbo has been our guest and she is a lawyer and she has joined us to talk about her terrible bosses and how the employees write in them just how you can actually be better at your workplace it's still a breakfast and plus tv africa will take a quick and all come back we'll be looking at health it's all about killer system stay with us


This lecture is entitled Thomas Jefferson and Neoclassical Architecture in America and Here we have a portrait of Thomas Jefferson alongside Monticello Monticello which was his home and his very elegant home that he designed and It's one of the buildings for which he is most famous now Thomas Jefferson obviously is an important figure in American history Because of his role in its founding and his role as a political figure, right? We know he Were the Declaration of Independence one of the most important documents in the founding of America and he was the third president of the United States, but For our purposes, he's very important as an Architectural designer and an architect essentially and he really helped to define a distinctly American architecture in the late 18th and early 19th centuries and it's important to Know that he was not trained as an architect, but he was an extremely curious man he was an extremely well educated man and he traveled a lot saw the world and took what he learned and applied it to Architecture in a very passionate way So let's take a look a better look at this image here on the right and that is Monticello So here it is again Monticello write that again for you Monticello and It was built over the course of many years from about 1770 to 1809 and this is in Virginia and again that it was his home and I have it up here next to this image, which is actually from this 16th century in Italy and It is by a figure you should remember the name of and that is Palladio You might remember Palladio with regards to the English architect in ego Jones who we discussed In ego Jones was very Influenced by the work of the Italian Palladio and so was Thomas Jefferson and this building here is a home of villa in Italy and I think you can see there's a lot of similarities between these two buildings. We have that Traditional classical temple front with the columns across the front the triangular pediment And so that's imitated here at Monticello. We have a prominent dome at the top Which Thomas Jefferson copies here, so he's very interested in Classical architecture, right? That's what's sort of going on at this time the revival of classical architecture But it's seen through the lens of this Renaissance architect who wrote treatises about classical architecture, so It's a revival of Classical architecture through someone who had earlier sought to revive classical architecture. It's a really interesting Thing going on there But I think again you can really see a clear reference to this architect who Thomas Jefferson very much admired But and again, this is you know his private residence And it was an ongoing project for Thomas Jefferson the work on this building But it was really a labor of love, but one of the most important Projects for Thomas Jefferson was actually his work on the University of Virginia, so let's turn our attention to that now so here we have sort of the central Quad the central area of the University of Virginia with this rotunda at the end and The flanking buildings on the sides and let's get rid of that mark. I just put there Okay, so here are the flanking buildings on the sides and here's just a better image of that rotunda and again, this is the University of Virginia and this was near to Monticello and It dates to about 1818 through 26 and Jefferson established the University of Virginia in 1818 and it was really one of the most important projects of his life He references His work in founding the universe founding and building the University of Virginia on his tombstone You know, he wanted that to be one of the things that people remembered about him after his death and he believed very strongly in education and in Providing public education for people it was a thing that he was very passionate about and he envisioned in this little space here What he called an? Academical village Academical Village and that sounds very quaint and maybe even utopian and it kind of was he had this idealized view of this space where people could learn freely Exchange ideas further knowledge and really this is a quintessentially neoclassical philosophy really at the heart of this and Interestingly this rotunda that's kind of the focal point of the space was a library library and what's interesting about that is that The typical college or university design Would have put a chapel here right so a building for religion would have been the focal point Whereas Thomas Jefferson was forward-thinking and realized no religion should not be a part of that he thought Books and knowledge and information should be a part of that and that's a really interesting thing because we see the lasting impact of those enlightenment ideals right with that replaced religion with Knowledge and science and reason so we're still you know working out of that tradition and reaping the benefits of Enlightenment thinkers at this time So, you know just taking a look at the style here We once again have a clear reference to classical style and that same Palladian style with this temple front and the dome at the back Again, you know classical style seen through the lens of Palladio So you have some readings that discuss both Monticello and University of Virginia, so I won't discuss too much more But I just wanted to end by saying that I think this is a really interesting art historical monument Not only because it has such a lasting impact on American architecture, particularly universities But also because it reveals the spirit of American values at this time and it shows how the Re-application of classical principles matched those values


Energy. I'm your host, Mithun, and our underwriter is the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, and that's a program of the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute, HNEI. I'm very pleased to welcome our guest again, Tobey Kincaid, a deep thinker, an inventor, an author, and most recently the publisher of Green Hydrogen Today magazine, and my friend for the last 30 years, and he always bails me out by coming on my show at almost zero notice. So thank you very much, Tobey, for stepping up to the plate. My pleasure. Okay, so today we're going to discuss electric vehicle charging scenarios in Hawaii, navigating a changing landscape because it's continually changing and it's changed today, but you'll have to listen to the show. We'll tell you what the change was. So Tobey, welcome back to the show. Hello, Commander. Thank you for having me. Great to be with you. So let's get the seconds, I guess, the first slide up. Okay, so I have a question for you. So it's complicated. Yes. So in simple sailor's language, because I'm a sailor, I'll lead us through the different types of electric vehicle chargers and their power requirements. Tobey, give us the bottom line here, an idiot's guide to it. Well, it's all about turning renewable energy into spinning wheels. So how do we get the sun into your wheel well and turn those wheels? That's the real question. And when we talk about battery charging for battery electric vehicles, there are good points and tough points. The good point is that these cars are available. And so there's a push by the government and other interests to put in the appropriate charging infrastructure to do that. But there are a little bit, there are some challenges here in that idea. So we'd like to kind of frame it and then lead to what HECO is now doing. They put out a new schedule to encourage people putting in DC fast charge or level two chargers. So we'll get to that. But first, on that little sketch, I'd like to kind of show the guy freaking out because he's looking at his bill and money's flying everywhere. And really when it comes down to charging batteries, of course, the electricity you use is the important thing. And you're in Hawaii, you're in the middle of the ocean, you're 2300 miles from any major land area. So on the mainland, if we have trouble, we can just wheel energy from another grid. But you don't have that option on the islands. And so it's really I take my hat off to HECO for even keeping the grid going because in the saltwater and in all of the temperature and humidity, very difficult to do. So hats off to that. So when we look at the electric bill, you're really charged down two ways. First is the load. So that's the maximum over about a 15 minute period that you draw in any billing period, usually monthly. So if you have a party during the weekend, you're cooking all weekend using a lot of power in the rest of the month, you're not using power, you're still going to be charged for that peak high water point of your demand. That's called the demand charge. And that's usually charged by kilowatt. So it's by power. Now, then you pay for the electricity. And that's by energy, that's kilowatt hour. And it's some fee for that. So they put those together. And that's just the normal billing method of utilities. Well, the challenge becomes if you want to charge battery electric vehicles, you often use a lot of power. So back on that chart, if we look down, there's really three choices. You have level one, level two, and then level three is called DC fast charge. And what we're doing is they're building up more and more power in these dispensers to push the electricity into the battery faster and faster. Now, batteries don't necessarily like that, but we'll get to that. So on that sketch, you could see level one has a power rating of about 2.5 kilowatts or less. And I drew a little house on the bottom and a line going down just to kind of give a little context of what power we're talking about. So level one just uses the normal socket, 120 volts. And you can see it takes about a half of a house. A normal house is about five kilowatts if you turn everything on. So level one is fairly slow. It takes a big battery, depends on the battery, but around 12 hours to charge that. But it's done efficiently. And that's very useful for people who have the ability to put that in. Then we go to level two. And level two charger is an attempt to put more juice in. And this is usually the circuit that you have for your washer and dryer. It's a 240 volt service. So if you put that in, the power rating is about 7.5 or 7 kilowatts generally, some a little less, some a little bit more, but usually about seven. So you could see, you should expect about three times faster charging. And in fact, we see that we, that would charge your big battery in maybe four hours. So then we get to the third option, which is DC fast charge. And now you can see that DC fast charge has had a range. It usually has been over the last five or six years around 50 kilowatts for a dispenser. So that's about 10 houses worth of power to service that vehicle. But now the big push is to go for these really powerful 350 kilowatt dispensers. And that'll push the power in much faster, although it's often the least efficient way. Batteries don't really like to be pushed, but we're humans and we're overlords and we say, do it. So we push the batteries. But the trade-off is, the challenge is, you're talking about 70 houses worth of power, everything turned on. Get that visual, just to service one DC fast charge at that 350 kilowatts. That's a whole neighborhood. That really is. It's a lot of power. And for the main lenders, that's not such a big, well, it is an issue for the grid in many outlying areas because they're not set up to handle that capacity. But we can manage it because we have a western grid that allows us to wheel back and forth. Now, you don't really have that option. Every island is independent. And so the challenge is, how do you satisfy customers' needs for a fast charge but not brown out your grid in doing it? So a fast charge is like, if you drive your car up to the North Shore to go surfing and you didn't have a chance to charge it at home and it's only half full and you get up there and you say, oh my God, I've only got 10% left. How am I going to get home? I don't want to have to have a tow truck or an Uber. So you're looking around for that fast charger. Absolutely. And you've hit on kind of the biggest concern that consumers indicate and that's range anxiety because there's a gas station on every corner but not a fast charger or even level two charging. So that's a challenge for an island-based grid. So maybe if we go to the second slide, I'll continue on that level one, level two, level three. So what you see in this chart is part of the problem. At the top, you see kind of what we're trying to do in the traditional sense, use as much renewables on the grid. But as we talked about earlier, the capacity factor is how often is the vehicle actually plugged in because renewable energy is a real-time proposition, either use it or you lose it. So this is very challenging for the grid operators because it's unscheduled. They don't know when you're going to fast charge. And I can tell you a lot of the independent system operators, the discussion on the mainland is how are we going to balance all of this? We're putting on renewables, but we have to balance the load and the supply. So if the load goes up, the supply has to go up to meet it. If the load goes down, the supply has to be curtailed back. Otherwise you over-energize the grid and that causes some arc flash, which would be dangerous. So the grid operators are excellent. They know what they're doing, but this is a challenge. And if they have to curtail it, we're wasting renewable energy, and that's not the objective. We want to use as much renewable energy as possible. Exactly, exactly. And that curtailed energy is a big number. In the Pacific Northwest, we have something like 16 terawatt hours a year of renewable energy that's not usable. They have to turn it off. And as you point out, after you build a facility, turning it off is not the point. So it's a real tough challenge. Now, I rarely have a chance to praise utilities, but I'm going to praise them when they deserve it. And what HIKO has done is come up with this schedule called EVJ. And what they've done is really progressive. I mean, this is a really aggressive idea. And what they're trying to do is promote people putting in chargers at their facility, their apartment building, the hotel or wherever, the strip mall, wherever you want to put some charges in a parking lot. Now, their schedule is amazing. And I'll give you a kind of a reference to the top of that sketch. The reason we really don't see 350 kilowatt chargers on Oahu or any other island is that's a lot of juice. That's a lot of power. And in another sketch, I'll show you a calculation where if you had a thousand vehicles charging at 350 kilowatts, that's 350 megawatts. And so a thousand cars at that rate would draw about a third of your grid. So that's not practical. That's not going to happen. So what HIKO did is they realized the big issue is demand charge. So for example, if I wanted to put in a 350 kilowatt fast charger, the demand fee used to be about $24 at the commercial schedule per kilowatt. So 350 times 24, that's $8,400, something like that. That's per month. I'd pay for one dispenser before I pay for the station or the electricity. It's very tough. So obviously, HIKO understands what they're doing because they said, okay, look, we're going to put a schedule together for midday from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. And we're only going to charge you $2 per kilowatt for the demand charge. So in that case, instead of $8,400, you're only going to pay about $700. That's a much more manageable figure. I checked your math, by the way, you're right on. Very important. So what they've done is they've made that demand charge low enough to be practical, very, very good policy. And they reduced the electricity cost during that 9 to 5 to 3.85 cents per kilowatt, 3.5, almost 4 cents per kilowatt hour. When is the last time Hawaii ever saw that kind of rate? I'm paying 50 cents a kilowatt hour on my hydrogen station on the big island. I mean, wow. Yeah, makes a big difference. Incredible. Yeah. And so by doing this, I really think you should get an award for it. Hiko, you did good because you're moving the ball forward. You're looking at the private sector and saying, how can we help you install? Now, if you draw before 9 a.m. or after 5 p.m., that's kind of on and off peak, as they differentiate between the midday, then the rate goes up to about 12 cents, but still very good. And then there's a little bit of a fine-tuning with their power factor, which really relates to how easily the grid can deliver the power that you need. So there might be a little adjustment and they have a, in the fine print, they'll add another 10 cents. I believe for that adjustment, the adjustment won't be very much. So 5, 10 percent, typically. So for the most part, you've got great rates for now trying to facilitate getting people to plug in and charge. So, Hiko, I took my hat.  So this could really help that out a lot for that business owner because, you know, the difference between paying three or four cents a kilowatt hour and 50 cents a kilowatt hour is tremendous. But also people are attracted by those, quote, free chargers. And if you can get, I mean, if the business guy can still attract customers to a store and they're charging the vehicle while they're buying stuff, and it's only three or four cents a kilowatt hour, that's a heck of a good deal for the business owner. Amazing. Yeah, very much so. And then when you add, on top of that, under the Recent Inflation Reduction Act, now they are allowing any, what they call EVSE, Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment. So that could be level one, level two, it could be DC fast charge, it could be hydrogen fuel cells. Under the language of the IRA, this Inflation Reduction Act, you're also qualified for a 30% tax credit off the top. So those things together, coupled with HECO's new EVJ schedule, is really very progressive in trying to get charging infrastructure on the island and up and running. So very interesting. But you got to figure it out. Yes. And that's what we're trying to do on this show. At least introduce people to the problem and how to figure it all out so they can do models and find out when's the best time to charge and when's the best time not to charge. That's what we're trying to do is de-complicate it, make it sailor friendly. Absolutely. Let's go on to the, oh sorry, go ahead. Oh no, maybe we'll just jump to the third slide and we'll just keep going on related to what's involved. So what are the charging levels? Yeah, so here we've got one level one, level two, and level three. And I kind of rewrote and tried to draw some of the plugs so you can see another challenge is format. They're not all the same, they're not all the same. No, they're not all the same. And in fact, I've got a little bit of a funny story about that, but I'll see if we can fit it in. But when you look at level one, that's 120 volts, you're just going to plug it into your wall and every EV comes with a little pack. And actually for level one and level two, the rectifier, the thing that changes the AC to the DC in the battery, that's in the car. So you could just plug in it and actually those little level one and even level two chargers, the dispensers, don't actually do any charging, they're just basically a fancy light switch and it turns on the juice that in the car can deal with that. Now that's different when you get to DC fast charge, that's where you have to have DC high voltage, usually over 600 volts, pushing into the car. But it's kind of interesting at level one, we're dealing with that power at two and a half, pretty manageable. When you get to level two, there's a plug called a J1772. I don't know why they call it that, not a marketing brilliance in my view, but it's a J1772. And that is kind of universal up to level two charging. So every car is going to be able to take that plug format. Now when we get to DC fast charge, now it gets even more a little complicated because now you have different formats. We've really kind of narrowed it down to basically three. You have a Chathamplug and those are usually for the Japanese manufacturers or Asian manufacturers. That's the standard they developed. That's a different plug. Then you have CCS which is combined charging system. And that is kind of standardized and that's mostly from the European manufacturers. That was their push. And then you have a Tesla as a third party with their own format. Now what's really funny is CCS in America, and I wrote CCS, well, it's actually CCS one. If you go to Europe, they have a CCS two, which is not compatible. So if you brought an EV from Europe directly to states, you'd have trouble plugging in unless they have an adapter, which I've not heard of yet. So there's all these formats and this is a little bit different and difficult. And, you know, if you look at kind of the buzz on the street, people are early adopters, you know, they're doing the best they can with these chargers. But you have a lot of companies that are actually running the station. So you have to have their app to fit. You have ChargePoint, OpConnect, Greenlots, EVGo, Electrify America, which is now using EVGo. But mostly you have to kind of, if you were doing a long trip in the mainland, you'd have to have four or five apps to be able to accommodate everything. So if I absolutely mean adapters. Well, they have an app so that you can actually interface with the station. None of them have like a card reader for your credit card or debit card. They don't do that for some reason that the owner operators or at least the back office, the one that does the charging in terms of charging your wallet and allowing you access to the charge, that's really been a little bit of a mess. Now in Europe, they said, look, years ago, maybe five, six years ago, they said, look, we're going to make sure that every car that's a battery EV can charge at any station. So they standardized CCS, CCS2 in the European style. And they said to Tesla, hey, you can put any chargers you want, but you have to have CCS2 so anybody can use it. That was a very smart idea. We didn't do that in America. The government doesn't have any, if what's really at all doesn't set any standards actually, firms of how any mandate to what's accessible and what is not. It's all kind of done by private interests. So it is a bit of a challenge. Now, on the bottom of this page, I put together kind of a look at a Wahoo. Now if we look at the grid on a Wahoo, if you turn every generator on, it's about 1.6 megawatts, excuse me, 1.6 gigawatts. That's the whole grid. That's with everything on. The normal peak of the grid on a Wahoo is somewhere around 1.2 gigawatts. So you need 1.2 billion watts to run this island available at any particular time. So then we get to this calculation on that sketch. At the bottom, I put 1000 times a battery electric vehicle at 350 kilowatts. And then we get this 350 megawatt draw for only a thousand cars at that high level. So that's very challenging. That's a 30-year grid. So not a practical, there's a limit then. And HECO recognizes this and said, okay, at least under our new EVJ program, they're kind of, as I read it, they're envisioning kind of level two chargers that are put on. But in the EVJ schedule, they point out that they will install three-phase if you wish it. I don't know if there's a fee for that, there usually would be. However, they are saying that HECO will pay for all of the grid improvements if under this program. And I should also point out that there's a limit, I think, of a thousand sites that they'll allow this. So between the big island, Maui and Oahu. And let's talk a little bit about charging efficiency, our favorite topic here. Yes. Well, it's an important one for sure. And here's the thing about batteries. As we know, there's two types of electric vehicles. There's the all-battery style, and then there's the hydrogen fuel cell. They're both electric vehicles. The fuel cell makes the energy in real time from the hydrogen. And the nice thing about that is you can make clean hydrogen like you're doing on the big island with your solar arrays. And so what we have here is that this new schedule would allow for a level two. But I would say that you could go to level three under that schedule as long as you stay another parameter is you have to stay under 300 kilowatts. So obviously at 300, one 350 dispenser would not qualify. So one dispenser is already disqualified. But if you lower the power of those DC fast charts back to say 50 kilowatts each, then you could conceivably have six. So you're much faster with the DC fast chart, but you're drawing, of course, much more current. So when we talk about these batteries, what I see on the top chart is see the little 20 percent. Now you're told if you have a battery EV, not to discharge the battery more than 20 percent or further down, and they don't want you to charge it beyond 80 percent. So you have kind of 20 percent at the top and 20 percent at the bottom that you're not really supposed to use. So I think in a conversation we had it almost was like a turtle, right?  So you're carrying around a lot of EV weight. And that's kind of when we look at this chart, you'll notice that the 20 percent you're starting, the efficiency is really fairly high because the battery is thirsty. But as you charge a battery, and that's great. But as you start charging a battery, so increases its resistance to being charged. So it's very much like a metal spring. And you're going to grab both ends and you're going to stretch and stretch. Well, it's kind of easy in the beginning, but then it really protests. And that's kind of what's happening in a battery. It's the batteries like everything slow. They prefer to charge slowly and they prefer to discharge slowly. But batteries work for humans. Humans say, hey, go fast. But they don't like it. And I'm not a horse whisperer or a battery whisperer. But I know enough of their language to know that if you touch a battery and it's hot, it's mad. It's protesting. It's trying to tell you, stop. Why you gave me something to drink. That's great. But now you're just pouring water. Stop, stop, stop. But no, we push them. So when you look at the battery as style, you know, I've worked with batteries for decades and I have a lot of respect for batteries, but they should be used properly and not necessarily the whole load as a battery. That's very difficult because batteries don't have a lot of energy density. They have pretty good power density. You can get that short right across it and boom, you go fast, but you can't sustain it very long. So these are kind of the quagmire that we have to balance. So now when we look at the bottom of that sketch, you'll see that if you want more range on an EV, you have no choice but to add more battery. And that adds more weight, that adds rolling resistance. Now compare that to a fuel cell truck. The largest fuel cell truck I've seen coming out of Europe has 70 kilograms of hydrogen they can store in their tanks, but that's 150 pounds, something like that. Not very much compared to the weight of a fully loaded truck. So the weight difference only gets better. It doesn't actually go up if you want more range to any significant amount. So these are kind of the parameters that the battery guys want to do, the government wants to do, city planners want to do, and okay. And with this new aggressive EVJ, HECO, Bravo, well done. I think you're going to see a lot of response to that because it's a great deal. Yeah, especially for business fleet operators. It's ideal for them. So let's go on to the next slide and talk about various charging scenarios. You got your A, B, C. Yeah. Well, so where does that lead? In my view, in my opinion, you've got essentially four scenarios here. The top scenario A is basically business as usual. Try and put as much renewable as you can, but it's a real time operation. If the car is plugged in and can take advantage of that renewable energy in real time, great. If it's not during the sunny hours, then you're using whatever mix the grid has. So the top scenario is basically connecting directly to the grid. There's the power conditioning equipment. And again, the equipment is between the car or the consumer and the grid. All of that is called EVSE. And that comes up a lot because now the tax code is referring to this specifically. So that's a great progress there as well. And EVSE means remind us again. I'm sorry. Remind us what EVSE means. Oh yes, forgive me. Electric vehicle supply equipment. So that applies to everything. It could be level one, level two DC fast charge and hydrogen fuel cells as well. So there's a 30% tax credit available for that hardware now. And that's pretty significant. Very, very helpful. Certainly before it was active, you'd have to come up with the other 30%. So that's a good thing. So that's your first scenario. But you could see that that power demand is really tough on the grid because it's in real time. And I'd like to point out in an emergency if a typhoon, knock on wood, this doesn't happen. But if a typhoon swings around the big island or comes up underneath and nails a wahoo, your grid is not very well hardened. It's going to be splinters. And that means that nobody can charge at all. There's not even electricity to pump the gas. So there is a vulnerability with scenario A. Now, another approach is a technology where they put a solar canopy on a mast. And then you see in scenario B, I have a car there drawn. But take the car away and you see that kind of big plate. That's a big steel plate and it's covered with rubber. And that's a ballast mount. So the kind of cool thing about this is you don't have to, you probably don't even need a permit because you're not drilling into anything. It's removable. It installs in a day or several hours. That's just all you need. The downside is it tends to be a little higher cost. So that's a little something that, again, that 30% might help alleviate. But the other issue is you're limited to level two. See batteries and what's neat about this capacity factor is if the car isn't there, the solar energy is wasted. But in that scenario, number B, they put a battery on the mast head to collect all the energy when you're not there and then run your level two charger. The problem is you can't really get to DC fast charge from small batteries. It's too much of a draw for them. So that kind of then leads us to scenario C, which is my favorite, which is what you do on the big island by putting down electrolyzers. And now you could build all your renewables. You could over build your grid in renewables because there's somewhere for it to go. This is the brilliance of your design on the big island is and why connecting it to the grid was such a good idea. It means the perfect teaching power plant because you're demonstrating green hydrogen, but you're also saying, Hey, let's take it from the grid at night and use other people's renewable energy. That's the idea that you're going for and it's a great way to go. So in scenario C, we're kind of, there's a technology being developed by EV4 by Hans Vandermeer here in Portland, where they're putting a fuel cell stack and we're going to run the DC fast charge from the fuel cell. So normally a fuel cell is in a vehicle, you know, hydrogen fuel cell vehicle as a fuel cell, but we're going to put it on the station as well, because now we can take your hydrogen, run the fuel cell, do DC fast charge at any level that you want to design it for. And there's no grid impact because the grid doesn't see the fuel cells. They only see the electrolyzer and that's a scheduled load. And it's much smaller than the fuel cell. So for my money, I say go with option C. And then just to finish it, option D is option C without the grid. If you just wanted to run solar and maybe some wind at night, if a smaller wind perhaps, because large wind isn't terribly popular, but the smaller wind would probably work very well in terms of keeping your electrolyzer going and producing hydrogen that you then use for DC fast charge. And I love that idea, because you're kind of putting in half the infrastructure you need for when you do dispense the hydrogen from those sites, you've already got the electrolyzer in the storage and all the filters and dryers and everything is there.  So the future is definitely going to be fuel cells because of the advantages, fast fueling, long range, very little rare earths, if any, depending on what technology you choose. That's very scalable. Plus, you can take all of the solar and wind that you have and turn it into energy where none of it is curtail. That's I think the future for Oahu and Hawaii. I totally agree. So let's go on to the next slide. We're running out of time. We're on the down slope here, which is good. So let's talk about charging made simple. Yeah, this one, you know, that's the thing, you know, people have, if you monitor it and I try to, you hear people complaining that all these different standards and all the things, this one's not working and you get all this trouble. So I'd like to say, if we were doing DC for fast charge, I would just slap on a QR scan code sticker and sign up with Apple pay. And so you drive up, plug in your car, snap a picture of the code and the app goes, Oh, hello, Mr. Perkins. I see you'd like a DC fast charge. Yes. And you're done. So I think that's the way to go. And but all of these other interests, the green lots and the other companies that I mentioned, they have a business model and they have good apps in there and they're there to manage the money to authorize the charge. So it'll grow. So at the start, we really named our show well by saying navigating a changing landscape because hot off the press today, the period was announced that the PUC is adopting this time, another kind of, I'm not sure what the details are, but time of use rates for the eco companies.  So we'll get a chance to do this show again, Toby, and update it as we go along so that people that have the latest scoop here. I love it. The other thing on that last slide I just mentioned is I love the idea of someone just saying, Hey, for 10 bucks, you get 100 miles in about 10 minutes. Now that would take quite a DC fast charge. You'd have to get up to around 150 kilowatts to do that. But if we use the system that you're doing on the big island, that's not a problem. So I think some creative marketing, make it easy for the customer to interface. And I think that's a winning combination. Yeah, you know, I think going forward, the reason it's going to change is as we get familiar with the system, we can figure out better ways to do things. So all of this is based on, oh, maybe it would work better if we do it this way. And sure enough, it does. So we're going to change the rules to make it easier for everybody. So that's the process. Yeah, that's a good process. So I just want to call up the next slide, which is a little bit of acknowledgement to you. Oh, well, thank you. I didn't invite everyone to go to their Apple App Store or Google Play and develop an app called green hydrogen today. It's magazine. It's in the format of a magazine. But the app functions are really getting exciting because we're adding every, it's quarterly, and every issue we're adding more companies in the green hydrogen directory. And this would allow you to find electrolyzer companies, fuel cell companies, engineering companies, finance companies, storage companies. So all of this is just to increase the industry. And happily, it's growing. And so I'm happy to report we're still here. It's a great magazine, Toby. So that's it. We're going to have to leave it there. We just ran out of time. So thank you so much, Toby. You've been watching Hawaii, the state of clean energy on Think Tech Hawaii. And today we've been talking to Toby Kincaid, my friend, author, publisher, and deep thinker about EV charging in Hawaii and standby. It's going to change as it did today. So thanks for participating, Toby. And thanks to our viewers for tuning in. So I'm with you and we'll be back in two weeks with another edition of Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.