Should this Asian guy delete all dating apps because he's not finding enough success on them? Or does he just need to learn how to play the game differently? Yeah, this is based off a viral thread on Reddit. Long story short, Andrew, there's this guy I'm gonna pop up photos right here. I'm just gonna call him Ben Zang, because it kind of looks like a Ben Zang. And he basically said over the past three years, Andrew, he's been on all the dating apps. He's only been on six dates. He mostly is looking for white or Latina women. He's 5'11 Ivy League educated. He's got pets. He's got photos of him hiking. He's got a good career. How come he's not having any success? All right, everybody, we're gonna go into the nuance of this. Also go into what a lot of the other Redditors had and advice that they had. Also, our own advice, without knowing this guy personally and sitting down with him face to face, this is all we can say. This is all I can do to help him. So please hit that like button. Check out other episodes of the Hot Pop Boys. Immediately, Andrew, I gotta ask you, are you surprised that Ben Zang here is struggling? No, because I don't know how he's operating, bro, because not just based off his photos, he's not in horrible shape, but he could be too picky. He could be looking in the wrong places. There is definitely a technique to the dating apps, and I hope that this is just a reminder to anybody who's ever used them. But yeah, I mean, I'll go through the points. Yeah, so make sure you like, subscribe, turn on your notifications. I think real quick, thought-wise, the first thing that stuck out to me was like, I'm mostly looking for white women and Latina women, where I was like, yeah, with this type of profile, even if you went Ivy League, because honestly, they may not even care about that if you look too stereotypical. Hey, sometimes you're just looking for the wrong thing or looking for the tough to find treasure or something. Whatever it is, guys. Anyways, guys, let's get into it. Here's six things I'm gonna go over quickly just to remind everybody that these are the things that you need to be successful on the dating apps. One, good content. Obviously, your photos need to be good. One, even if you have, like if you're catering, if you're looking for like Hispanic women, for example, if that's your preference, you might wanna have something on your profile that shows that, like you eating Latin food or out of Salsa class or something like that. Well, that's at the very least, right? It'd probably be better to have photos in that country or something like that. Exactly. I mean, I'm assuming if you are like a computer science engineer from Ivy League school, you have the money to go take the vacations to get the photos. Yeah, number two, stamina and mental and emotional fortitude to handle all the rejection you will have. Everybody gets rejected, even my friends who are assigned models who are on the dating apps who generally it's a lot easier for them.  Ghosting happens all the time, conversations drop off. How are you gonna deal with that emotionally? Can you take it? It's very important. Number three, knowing what you're looking for. Now, this comes to whether you're looking for fun experiences you just wanna date around or you want long-term relationships, something worthwhile that's gonna change your technique and your tactics on how you approach the game. Just to apply it to benzene situation, I wouldn't be surprised if it's almost like his profile looks like he's looking for a long-term relationship with a Chinese church girl, but then in his mind or his heart, he might be desiring short-term experiences with white and Latin women. David, this is like playing chess and being like, yeah, well, I'm trying to get to the queen and the king first, so how come I'm not winning this chess match? Anyways, guys, technique is very important. Obviously, the questions you ask, how you move the conversation along, even where you choose to go on dates so you're not spending too much, start at the middle level, maybe just go out for drinks, dessert, coffee, instead of going for that juggernaut, big date, omakase, spending hundreds of dollars, not good, not a good tactic. I guess unless you got it like that. Yeah, unless you're a millionaire, then do that. Other than that, next, small investment. It's gonna take some money. Please, please, please pay for the tools that make things better. Pay for the more swipes. Pay for the roses or the coins or the VIP if and really take the game seriously. Right, so you're saying that the paid upgrades that oftentimes, I guess, probably realistically guys that wanna meet girls on the apps are encouraged to purchase, they will change your experience. Dude, that's like saying, yo, I wanna learn how to golf. I have a little money, but I'm gonna buy the cheapest golf clubs possible. Right? No, it's true. You wouldn't do that. Also, again, last but not least, location and environment, always switch it up, change where your neighborhood is placed, change where you're swiping, maybe you wanna swipe in Canada, maybe you wanna swipe in Toronto, maybe you wanna swipe in Atlanta, maybe you wanna swipe in DC, New York, wherever. And you might wanna switch the app, too, Andrew. Instead of being on Hinge in New York, this Ben Zing guy might wanna go on Tantan in Toronto. Oh! Yeah, it might be. Chinese apps and pictures. It might be night and day, man, who knows? Maybe you might wanna just go to a completely different country, but no, I'm basing this advice for America, by the way. Yeah, why do you think that dating apps are good for guys? I know there was a lot of arguing, even from successful guys that are good with women on both sides, like, it's really interesting. It's not just like one or the other, right? Like, a lot of people have a variance of opinion on this. Yeah, I think if you do not have a lot of social circles where you're constantly meeting single women or your homegirls are not constantly having you meet other women, right? Not everybody has that in their life. He does not use that word, homegirl. Or whatever. No, but you're- What's another term for that, when girls are just friends? Like, girlfriend. So you're saying that somebody, maybe club promoter, bartender, somebody who operates in the nightlife space. Okay, those are extreme cases, I would say. Those are extreme positions. But anyways, I think apps are good for Asian men and play into Asian men's advantage and strengths, because one, a lot of Asian dudes have careers like engineering and things where they're not meeting a lot of single women through their job. So they're not necessarily used to that. They're not marketing or sales, so maybe they don't have that natural social bravado- You're talking about STEM jobs. Yeah, STEM jobs. They're not necessarily gonna prepare you that. Maybe in the medical field, you're working around women more, but anyways, it takes you out from having to meet people at bars and clubs, which are very competitive in tough environments, by the way. Two, it exposes you to women outside of your own circles, women that you may not cross paths with, women who go to a completely different gym, who go to different parks- Yeah, let's be honest. We all live different lives in America. America's very diverse. There's a lot of different fish bowls that do not have any sort of overlap in the Venn diagram. And you might want, be looking at women from a different fish bowl. You have no access. The app theoretically could allow you to break that barrier. Allows you to reach women who are maybe into more like different niche subcultures that might play into your advantage. Maybe they're like the cosplay type. Maybe they like anime. Maybe like their Korea booze. Maybe they're into, maybe they're out traveling in Asia and they're into Asian culture. Whatever it is, maybe they're more exposed to it. There's not a lot of Amanda. Some girls are even sinophiles. Yeah. And then also, I think it prevents friend zoning. Friend zoning is something that happens to a lot of nice guys, no matter what race you are. But basically if you meet a girl on the apps, that's kind of like saying, hey, I'm here to date. So don't put me and the friends on that quickly. But why do you think some guys think that dating apps are bad? And there's even some record of some guys who are good with, you know, they do quite well with women that still go against it. Yeah, again, like if you have built up social circles, I don't think you need to be on the apps. I think meeting people in person is the ideal way, but the apps is the second best way. I think that just women are really picky and they get to be picky online. So if for whatever reason, this woman wants to discriminate against you or swipe left on you because you're Asian, because you look a little too nerdy because you don't have cool enough photos because you're not at cool parties. It is true that if he happens to be one of like, I guess an adorable, nerdy-looking guy, but he has extreme riz as the kids like to say, if you wouldn't see it on the app. Yeah. And different apps kind of have different market of people too between Coffee Meets, Bagel and Hinge. Anyways, David, those are my general points about dating apps when it comes to Asian guys. So hopefully that was either a good reminder or that was new knowledge to you. Right, it depends. Everybody's at a different point in their journey.  I've used the dating apps for many years of my life. Okay, so I feel like I have some perspective on this. Andrew, let's just be real here. I think that a lot of Chinese guys, specifically with parents from mainland China are gonna struggle a lot more with social IQ relationship reads. Then let's just say you're average Filipino guy. Sure. Because there's no coaching, especially if your parents were from mainland, especially, but all, I mean, by the way, I'm not saying all Asian guys are not at some like knowledge gap situation between the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern Hemisphere, but I just think the more traditional cultures or the cultures that more put at ultra heavy emphasis on STEM achievement or academic achievement, they're gonna be necessarily less spending coaching other things. We might not even have the knowledge base to begin with in that area. Because he knows maybe his mother at some time was like, yeah, Ben, don't worry.  You graduated from Columbia. So you like the girls- And you have a big pizza. Yeah, your nose is big. That's what nose means. No way. And then it's like, oh yeah, you're fit. You're strong like your father. Like a lot of women are going to want to date you. And then Ben's like, well, I wanna date Hispanic and white women only. I haven't had any dates yet. I'm like, dude, because the thing is- Sophia Vergara, here I come. A lot of guys, unfortunately in the dating market, especially when it comes to getting a lot of dates, they tend to value their education. They're like, oh, I'm good if I went to Ivy League. It's not always the case, man. You know, that's just the way the world is. And especially, like I think if anything, more Asian women would value your education more so. You know what? Yeah, you're right. And he's looking for white and Latina. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I think an Asian church girl would really value the fact that he went to Columbia Ivy League school a lot more. But I also think sometimes the Ivy League guys, they're looking for their equivalent where they're like, they're looking for a really pretty girl who went to an Ivy League or Ivy League adjacent school and has a high-powered career. And that's just real difficult, right? Yeah, and I think being on the dating app, sometimes you're like, oh, I get to put my school and my job title. Ho-ho, girls are gonna be flocking.  Obviously, every parents teach their kids different things. I happen to have a lot of exposure to academic families. Academic parents, they don't really understand the social side of life. They might understand how to navigate academia and get papers published to get a PhD.  All right, everybody, we're gonna go into the specific advice that other people had for them and then we'll give our responses. Let's get into the comments section because this was a lot of Asian bros trying to help Asian bro. Yeah, somebody said maybe on your photos I can say that genetically you're slightly above average looking, but you have dorky fashion, you've got glasses, you're bound to get no matches, you lack edge, you look like a stereotypical nerd, you look like you're going to a Sunday church, you have terrible hair.  Whoa, this guy roasted him, but that was some tough love. What do you think about that?  Yeah, listen, like I'm just saying like, if you don't come from a marketing background because dating apps, essentially you're marketing yourself. You're selling yourself. You are putting yourself out on the dating marketplace. That's literally what it is. So a lot of guys are horrible at selling themselves. They undersell themselves or they themselves just don't have the strongest optimized tools. This guy made it quantitative, he said he's probably in the top 65, depending on how nerdy the girls are, 70th percentile. But let's be honest, you gotta be in the top 20 to 15th percentile to get any love on the apps. So that means you gotta work on yourself or lower your standards. He made it very statistical. No, obviously he just made these numbers up obviously. So these stats, they don't mean anything to me.  You're saying our friends are what, six foot, six pack, blah, blah, blah, they're doing better. They get a lot of matches. They even get some roses, okay? Guys getting roses.  I don't get a lot of roses. Yeah, well, you know what? That's okay. But that's why I'm saying stamina is important in your mental and emotional fortitude for the apps. You can still meet a lot of people, but you gotta play the game correctly. Right, right, right.  They do not care about that at all. No, that, this is a real comment. I hope you read this one because I agree with it. And the truth is on his profile. Well, not everybody has Asian values, right? But from his profile, I cannot see anything that signifies that he is interested or knows anything about Latin or even white culture. Like where are you grilling your stakes in your backyard? Right? You're saying that's white, right? Yeah, that's white. Where are you at a salsa class dancing? Right, right, right. How do you know that you, like, if I only wanted to date Hispanic women only, if that was my preference, David, you better believe I would learn some Spanish. Yeah, this guy said, listen, guys, I get with a lot of non-Asian women and the key is as an Asian guy, you have to have big muscles and tattoos. Then all of a sudden it switches from extremely difficult to extremely easy because non-Asian types of women, once they're really into your look, they probably just go full head of steam ahead. So this guy was saying you really got to get the muscles and you really got to get the tats.  Knowing this guy, Ben Zang, he's from a Confucian family. He was able to fill his parents' desires to go to Ivy League school, probably get a STEM degree. Getting muscles and tats, that ain't even on a table, in my opinion. No, I think getting muscles should be on the table. I think getting muscles should always be on the table. The tattoos, I understand, some families are, like, against it. A hundred out of a hundred against it. So I'm not saying I don't think you need tats, but getting muscles and showing them off, if you're fit and you're 5'11", you need to show that off.  So what are you doing putting 5'11"? So what are the guys like, but I don't really like eating that much protein because you know you got to eat a lot of protein to get buff. So I guess what I'm saying- Well, then just suffer the rest of your life then. Just suffer, just suffer. That's it. That's it. No, suffer if you don't even want to eat meat to get stronger than just, that's it.  You're not adapting. You're not doing the things you need to do. I love churrassey bowls. The fish doesn't have enough protein. No, salmon has a lot of omega-3. It's not the same as beef. Anyway, Andrew, let's get into our takeaways. Why did this thread go so viral? I think it went viral, even though it just seems so simplistic, because a lot of guys are like, damn it. You went to an Ivy League school. You've got a six-figure income, probably well into the six figures. And you can't even figure out level two out of 10 online dating advice. This goes to show you how unbalanced our culture is. Like, and by the way, it's not everybody's family. Like, if you're Donnie Yen's son or daughter, you're gonna have way more social IQ than if your parents are like PhDs or master degree academics from mainland China, right? I mean, listen, honestly, this guy, in my opinion, is in a pretty good position. He's only like three months and a makeover away from significantly doing better on the apps. I think so. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it's not hopeless.  Like, dude, you're in a solid position. There's a lot of guys out there in a worse position. But I'm like saying, like, I just think he's not getting any coaching and giving advice on the internet is so hard because you're not able to sit down with these people and you don't know what they're messaging, who they're swiping on. If he has a super high standard and is super picky, his life will always be hard when it comes to dating. Always, even in person, it'll be hard. And I think a lot of people, they ask their friends for advice, but their friends are not professionals. That's like asking your friends for professional therapy. Your friends can be at ear, but it does not mean they've been coached like a high paid professional therapist. Like, just because they can perform the same function does not mean that it's operating at the same quality or affection. If you're trying to improve your health and get buff, are you gonna listen to your friend who actually got buff and improved their health or the friend who in theory knows how to do it but hasn't done it themselves?  I'm saying, so here's my advice to Ben Zhang and anybody out there like Ben Zhang. You got, I think you have to seek advice from other guys who have done okay on the apps, who have found some success and know what they're doing. And then you have to just improve yourself individually, ultimately. And I think you have to understand that your parents really just didn't, they were good at some things in life, which allowed them to do some things, but there may be gigantic blind spots in their knowledge base. Yeah, and here's one thing that a lot of people are not gonna like to hear. This is maybe my slightly controversial advice.  Six dates in three years and you're 5'11 from an Ivy League school and you're not weird. Let's assume you're not weird in person. Excuse me, Andrew. I don't think that I would've gotten into that competitive program at Columbia had I lowered my standards.  That's crazy. Also, you know, again, like if I would also say, try to FaceTime them before you meet up with them in person, before you spend any money. That's my little advice, guys. I think that is sound advice. That's just my opinion. You guys, let me know in the comments down below if you agree, disagree, because I'm just a guy who has maybe spent a few years too many on the apps, okay? That's all I'll say. Maybe I have. You know how many years I'm clocking? Let's be honest. You did a lot of tours overseas, man. Eight years. Eight years, baby. Yo, Jocko. You're the Jocko of this. I've been through how many Afghans and tours do you want. Anyways, guys, that's my advice to Ben Zang and everybody else out there. So hopefully this video was helpful. Again, seek proper advice, get it in person, improve yourself, build your stamina for the app game, because it's a- Let us know in the comments section if you guys know any guys like Ben. Everybody gets different coaching from the parents. Some people's dads were players. Some people's dads were completely the opposite of that. Some people's dads are really cool and they can't pass down their coolness and social skills to their kids, which is also weird. Yeah, you see that too. That's a good point. That's like a whole another video. Until next time, let us know what you think in the comments section. Keep it civil. We at Hop Hop Boys, we out. Peace.


yesterday i give you i think a nice story like thing right about residence time distributions right so what we have to remember is that the first basic thing okay that any equipment when you are sending something inside and when it is coming out definitely there will be different timings for different packet of molecules to come out okay need not be reactors please remember that it need not be any equipment with flow when something is entering you can imagine because molecules are very very small you cannot see them but you can imagine some molecules as packet of molecules and it will be continuous only some packets will come early some packets will come late but if it is ideal equipment then you have a specified distribution right so distribution means again i have to tell you most of the people will switch off their brain the moment we say distribution right i also asked you sometime back can you say what is the residence i mean age distribution in this class approximately 22 to okay including the cameras cameras also cannot be 65 years old okay yeah so that is the one is the distribution so if i go into actual groups then there may be many people between 22 to 23 23 to 24 24 to 25 65 you will have only one point okay so when you join all of them then you will have the distribution and if it is ideal equipment then you have a specific distribution like we have seen about reactors that we have discussed so far mixed flow reactor there is a specific distribution it goes to 0 to infinity but the distribution is exponential decay okay that is exponentially mathematical also we can prove that right later and if i have ideal plug flow reactor we again have residence time distribution theoretically speaking but the distribution equal to 0 so when i plot everything will come at one point that means all particles exactly spending 10 seconds so at the outlet when i plot 10 seconds so all that will come together as 10 seconds the entire batch of molecules which you are trying to imagine so like that any batch every batch will have exactly same 10 seconds what we are focusing is only on certain batch when it is entering and how many of that is coming out why because when the behavior of that we know and we also assume that the behavior of all other molecules continuously entering will be exactly same it should be same for a given flow rate for given conditions temperature and all that right so that is what is the meaning of residence time distributions any equipment and without knowing yourself you have also assumed some distributions for distillation columns heat exchangers and your absorption columns any equipment or heat sorry what is that extraction columns or rotary kills rotary kills okay for all these things definitely rotary kill also can be used as a dryer not as a reactor i am talking so that means very material with moisture will enter at one point hot air will be sent opposite to that so by the time it comes out then it should be having whatever prescribed moisture what you have may be 1 percent moisture 0.1 percent moisture like that right so because you are familiar with distillation i will ask the question what is the distribution we have assumed in distillation okay to start with heat exchangers because heat exchanger will come earlier than distillation and also heat exchangers all of you are experts correct know that is one subject everyone will like no one anupriya says no i am talking about the molecules particles entering particles coming out you see you have designed many heat exchangers but still we do not know what is that we have assumed there zero distribution that means what why did you say zero i am not saying you are right or wrong i am just asking oxygen velocity same residence time did you assume same residence time in a heat exchange no we assumed oxygen velocity you assumed black velocity problem right so when the point is there like this and hot fluid is going inside coming out then you send the cold fluid may be counter current co-current so in both the pipes what you assumed without you knowing is that it is plug flow zero residence time distribution okay then only you can now say that at any cross section the heat going from okay hot fluid to cold fluid you can exactly right otherwise now you imagine there are also some problems with if you have laminar flow heat exchangers pipe flow your heat exchange design is totally different you cannot use the same heat transfer coefficients if you have laminar flow in the pipe deduce or you have never designed with laminar flow different equations why it is mainly because of the distribution which you do not know at that time okay now very good that is right okay so without knowing yourself you have done that already you are assuming that plug flow for heat exchangers because normally we use small pipes high velocities for better heat transfer so that is the reason why we assumed we have plug flow which is nothing but r t d equal to zero okay distillation columns absorption columns swami no i am asking what is the distribution inside the equipment constant molar volume is not distribution constant molar volume assumption is that one molecule will go this way another mole will go the other way that is all so that there is no imbalance in the transfer you see see really you do not appreciate me I have to appreciate myself because yeah I am bringing out all those things which you know I am only trying to bring out the ignorance from the people it is not that I am saying I am a great wisdom I have I also have my own ignorance but as a teacher I know where you can be ignorant that is why I am trying to bring that out okay and one definition of guru is dark removal of you know removal of darkness the darkness is equivalent to ignorance okay you have assumed that also particularly for absorption now you have first of all two phases right if you talk about absorption which is easy to understand right gas will go from the bottom liquid will come from the top and then component from the gas will go to the liquid at any cross section what is the velocity profile you have assumed when you are writing the two film theory equation you have written no two film theory equation no one there is Ramakrishna Ramakrishna you also I never thought about this oh my god this is what someone was telling me when I went to goon to give a lecture sir it seems we heard that you connect Reynolds number with plug flow we never knew sir how did you do that I said how did I do that that is the minimum thing what we should know correct know because I think laminar flow can never be plug flow so laminar flow is associated with Reynolds number so plug flow also must be associated with Reynolds number any flow is associated with Reynolds number it is not only plug flow yeah right I think even Levenspiel did not write the that same thing what you have told in the class in his book because why should Levenspiel write because Levenspiel thought that it is basic obvious so you need not write so but I do not think you know it is many obvious things are not obvious many common sense is not common so that is why I thought you know I will I have to bring that out you see without knowing yourself again in this absorption when you are writing the balance you assumed plug flow it is not perfect mixture okay now I can extend I can extend many many things now okay like extraction okay you can conduct extraction extraction operation in a packet bed right so that means light fluid going from the top or either a normal simple heat exchange sorry say simple extraction column where you drops are sent from bottom to the top if they are lighter or otherwise if they are heavy from top to the bottom and one fundamental question you got answer always is which phase you take as a dispersed phase you have two phases know in extraction both are liquids and one should be lighter and answer should be heavier so which one you choose as a dispersed thing both cannot be continuous why both cannot be continuous I am only talking you know chemical engineering yeah yeah so contact will be one stream like this another stream like this so you will have only contact at that interface which is not much so that is why you break one fellow into pieces and pieces and pieces generate large amount of surface area and allow that one to flow anyway that question you can answer later I will keep on going and asking that question which one will be dispersed phase okay so when you have that so when you have these two again you always take that the bubbles are moving at a constant velocity in fact you have small bubbles large bubbles large bubbles will be faster small bubbles will be slower because you know velocity is square root of d b f yeah d okay so that is what you have all that equation but even then we assume that at any cross section you have again flat velocity profile okay that is about the column now you may take you know there are mixture settlers also are used as exchangers what you do is you take the you know stirred tanks stirred tanks as heat exchangers you have come across that or only columns you are designing both the phase are taken into in one vessel and then stir when you are stirring one phase should break up right okay so you have to allow like that you know that kind of stirring where only one phase will break up that generates lot of drops right and then after some time may be depending on that process time you have to calculate how much time is that and after you feel that if it is already extraction is over I am talking about batch system then allow it to settle so one of the components either in the continuous phase this continuous is not with respect to flow but with respect to not breaking dispersion phase okay that one component may go from continuous phase to dispersion phase or may be from dispersion phase to continuous phase then settle out after settling separate it out send for a distillation column and then take out because the component which has gone to that other phase both should have some kind of difference in the boiling points then you go to distillation column and then separate it out now when you talk about this tank extractors what kind of residence term distribution you assume for batch first of all batch what the residence term distribution 0 now I can also use this for continuous continuously I will send two phases I will arrange my you know stirring such that one will break but both will come out again both will come out now I have two phases right yeah so again what kind of contacting pattern or what kind of residence term distribution you assume for this kind of tanks in series and you do not put generally one you will put one tank another tank another tank so because we know that now I have already told the answer you assume here perfect mixing perfect mixing means distribution of the droplets now you have to talk about two phases right both phases will be in perfect mixing that continuous phase as well as the droplets so when you look at the droplets some droplets may come early some droplets will come late and the droplet which has come early if there is a solute which has to be transferred to the continuous phase the amount transferred will be very very less because it is not stayed much time in the system in the stirring so then the other drop which has stayed more time the solute will would have transferred almost everything so that all that will go to the next tank next tank next tank so that means without knowing yourself you have assumed all this okay but only for reactors we discuss this because reactions may be more serious and you know if you have some kind of mixing and all that or residence term distribution is not zero to infinity somewhere like axial dispersion and all that so then temperature effects may be different right whereas in a mixture flow you will get only one temperature good control over temperature over plug flow you don't have good control of temperature so that is the reason why I think probably RTD has been used here okay most of the time and no mass transfer teacher the teacher who is teaching mass transfer will ever explain what is the distribution you have in this column and even absorption column I asked you I told you flat velocity profile this flat velocity profile again two phases I have liquid phase as well as gas phase right so is it logical to assume for both the phases as the plug flow because liquid is just coming down all the way and gas is going up right the gas is going up in the form of bubbles if I have only tank otherwise I also have falling films correct no so I will just spread my liquid as a film and then gas will be just moving so beautifully liquid will fall as in plug flow and gas also goes as plug flow then at any cross section you have the flat velocity profile and you can write the equation okay so that is the one now we have to extend the same concept here in residence term distribution for the reactors two reactors we know ideal distributions we have already discussed now we are going to discuss about non-ideal flow actually this residence term distribution subtitle is non-ideal flow that is the one right good so basically what we have to remember is that every equipment will have its own residence term distribution for the particles entering and then coming out that is number one how do I find out this I want to find out the residence term distribution of if possible each and every molecule that is not possible so at least each and every particle particle means it is only imagination right okay how do we do that in fact the best thing is if you are able to identify each and every molecule and if you are able to really find out what is the time spent by each and every molecule you map the entire molecules then you know how each and every molecule is behaving inside the I mean how much time it it is spent inside the reactor and what it has done right I mean it won't give you what is it is a black box arrangement at least from the outside you will try to find out what you do or what it would have done inside the reactor like exactly I told you know sugar test when they do they will only take sample blood sample and then try to find out what could have been the reason why this kind of sugar content is coming in the blood okay so it is only just going back and then trying to find out here also same thing so that ideal situation is this so because it is not it is impossible for us you know in one mole how many molecules are there 6.023 yeah so I know most of us won't have any feeling for 23 10 to the power of 23 even if someone says sir it is 10 to the power of 210 still we don't have any feeling because beyond you know 100 you don't have any feeling or may be thousand or may be rich people may be lack or one crore suddenly if you ask me one crore how many zeros means I can't answer at least one lakh how many five yeah so then of course plus two seven that means my reference is one lakh then add two so another you know 10 crore means another one like that it goes so that is why the zeros are very difficult beyond certain point we don't have any feeling for the zeros okay you know zeros are very important good yeah so that is why we will not have any feeling for this 10 to the power of 3 was 6.03 yeah 6.03 into 10 to the power of 23 molecule in just one mole how many moles you will be printing into the reactor how do you get that information impossible so that is why at least you know this tracer test where you can send some kind of tracer along with the normal fluid tracer is nothing but something which can be identified that's all in the blood also they will give you suddenly more sugar okay so then I know that batch of sugar how it comes how it is absorbed by the flow of the blood inside the body so then only they will try to interpret in fact it is very very surprising it is not the engineers first who found residence time distribution name is given by chemical engineers but the first person who has used this technique was a doctor really you have to appreciate you know there is no limit for the human brain if human brain wants to think that is what you know that think is very important we never think that is only right examination that's all we never think surprising you know that why I think in 1700 or 1800 I have that exact reference he is the person and you also know that who was the first person to write the material and energy balance can you guess Gopi Gopi I thought you know that is encyclopedia Britannica okay no in your Britannica it is not there okay any idea can you guess no it is again doctor medical doctor from Britain to I think Thailand or Indonesia he was traveling a langer I don't remember the name but I have that I have written somewhere but you know that doctor he wanted to find out how much energy is lost by humans and he was traveling from England which is a freezer and Indonesia which is a burner correct no because I think here the temperatures are very very high because it is almost near the equator and there I think of course he has not come from Siberia I think at least only England but still it is cold so I think they were not able to tolerate this kind of heat when they are traveling by boats I think it was happened it has happened again in 1700 or 1800 so he wanted to systematically people say that he made some mistakes but doesn't matter the concept the concept itself you know trying to find out material energy balance that means he will give water 2 liters and then how much will come out through sweat because maybe weight he may be taking okay or through you know other you know nation and all that so total amount he has to balance that is mass balance and energy energy I don't know how we manage but I think you know energy depending on his activity how he actively is moving if you don't have energy you will just sit down you can't do anything but that's what most of you do I think this generation doesn't have energy okay they have only mass and they are not able to convert this mass into energy equal to mc square they are not able to do it so that if you are able to convert some of it it will be excellent okay so that is why I think you know it is excellent no wonderful then these things to hear wonderful I appreciate all these I enjoy also telling others all these because I always appreciate the human mind I mean I don't have that kind of mind but at least appreciate you know the other great minds so something new always they will try to find out and Einstein brain I think you know physically if you look at if all the brains are same but what has really happened how we could imagine this theory of relativity where no one could imagine even now we can't imagine even now we don't know I mean also just read and then we know only that equal to mc square without feeling again I told you know anything you should have feeling then only you will be good right otherwise I think you without feeling is waste so that's all what we do but you know how we imagination that even now I asked many people why you should assume that the velocity of light is constant in the universe how we got the first of all that idea correct no I think many people trying to now prove that he was wrong right he is not wrong I think again recently also one experiment experiment was wrong not Einstein was wrong so that kind of brain how we got and another great brain is our Aries how he is able to think so many steps in I think you know before writing the final step he writes that I think we have also excellent brain Ramanujam you know mathematician how I think you know he gives the problem and gives the solution in between I think people are spending last 50 or 60 or 70 years to find out what are the steps in between really and how you know that the Ramanujam it seems when people asked how are you able to do it you know in Cambridge University when you went Cambridge you know there was some shade notebooks even at that time he has also yeah slate is conveniently at that time that's all because he was not confident whether you know right or wrong so that's why he used to write and then another thing he used to write yeah but I think you know it is not paper shortage definitely you see neural network inside is totally different our neural network is totally different right because that is the reason why he is able to simply write and then even someone asked I think I don't came to even know don't remember yeah yeah that university when he was he was a invited by that Hardy and then when he asked him it seems he told I don't know how I'm writing but that goddess of Namakal Namakal there is a place goddess which goddess is that Durga or something or I mean he says that you know because she is giving me all the solution that is the greatest of that man you know he never thought that my brain is great so I am imagining all that you are stupid people so that kind of thing he never had he was only just attaching that because God gave me that thing that kind of brain I don't know whether he has aware of his brain right so that's why I am able to write all these equations final solution so I mean when compared to all that what are we doing here correct no what we are really doing here nothing no nothing I think you know the same assignment which I have been given also no one is doing it and all those problems I think if you look carefully in different books most of the solutions are available somewhere or other even searching we are not doing and we joined as research scholars search and research you know okay first you have to search afterwards only research comes we are not even doing that research I mean first search so that is the reason why these brains you have to really appreciate okay this R T D also that doctor doing it is really fantastic and afterwards I think Langmuir used it seems not R T D directly some boundary conditions and Dan Quartz used it so beautifully and popularized like Lounsville popularized reaction engineering before that also there are few books you know Wallace book was there and the other three books you know what you have Hogan Watson Hogan Watson three books third book was third bookies kinetics so those two books but I think not much appreciation was there Smith book was there before Lounsville but Lounsville popularized because that is the greatest of presentation okay so that is why I think they have done anyway so now going back to residence time distributions somehow we have to try to find out if it is possible if I mean each and every molecule is not possible so at least pocket of molecules that is why we do this tracer test right so this few lines I think you have to take otherwise I am sure you know you will just forget right very happily you will forget so that is why you we do not have an ideal reactor because we do not know whether it is ideal or not we have to find out whether it is ideal or not like you have you are going to R what is the order of reaction we do not know so unless we do experiments and try to find out that yes it is first order because I am getting from the data only first order then you can say it is first order or elementary reaction okay similarly even here residence time distributions in all equipment will have residence time distribution but I do not know what kind of residence time distribution there so if I have plug flow if I want to have plug flow then I define my residence time distribution in this way if I have perfect mixed flow then I will define my residence time distribution in this way what is the importance of defining this residence time distribution to calculate conversion if I know that in plug flow each and every molecule spending exactly same time or pocket of molecules spending exactly same time the conversion in that is uniform and all molecules will have exactly same conversion so when I average at the outlet I have exactly same conversion on the other hand if I assume mixed flow there are some packets which are coming earlier and which are coming later but the overall conversion is the average of all these packets which I see in the outlet that is what is the concept right so that is why the name is given perfect mixing but the actual thing that is happening is residence time distribution again name is given plug flow but what is actually happening is that each and every molecule coming exactly at the same time so that is how it is connected so that is why all you know Levenspiel write something like this just to differentiate between ideal P F R ideal P F R means always we write like this okay mixed flow means we write the other way so to distinguish that he says that simply kind of reactor there any vessel so then something is entering constant flow something is coming out constant flow and let us imagine that there is no reaction first in that we are only worried right now about the flow okay either plug flow or mixed flow then we will exchange that one to reactors okay so then so this is the kind of vessel we have so some may move like this some may move like this some may move like this complicated flows so some may move like this and then finally everything has to come out everything has to come out and if it is ideal plug flow I know how they come right right well we are not talking about that in general this is the kind of thing so now just please take this in any vessel I am not telling about reactor at all in any vessel different molecules or packet of molecules spend different times under steady state conditions we are talking about only steady state conditions under steady state flow conditions how these particles are coming out of the vessel is an important parameter to be considered for the design okay to be considered for the design okay then you can continue okay next part you can write let us assume that each fluid particle let us assume that each fluid particle is equipped with a timer that is activated when it enters the vessel and stops when it exits the vessel has only one exit and one entry that is the assumption okay so then each particle at the exit has a time t associated with it associated with it which measures which measures the time which measures the time it spent in the reactor spent in the reactor this quantity is defined as the residence time of that particle the distribution of these times is called residence time distribution since we are measuring this distribution at the exit it is called what exit age distribution exit age distribution okay and you know normally it is et okay symbol wise exit age distribution oh sorry I think it is exit age distribution okay and the function representing this distribution the equation the function representing this equation is called exit age distribution function you have an equation for that you know for any vessel you will have an equation is called exit age distribution function comma et et is a function okay good so this is the one I think you know the other definitions will come you know cumulative one all that will come later but this is the one but here I have to just I think I have to go for the definitions and all that now but I have to tell you here each vessel may have more than one phase correct no it not that it not that only you have only single phase the flow is only single phase it can be two phases and we have three phases most of the time for reactors so that is why for each phase is associated with an exit age distribution function yeah I think you can write that usually in chemical engineering equipment more than one phase is involved right and each phase has its own residence time distribution and its function et okay few examples are given here I think that we will discuss quickly then we can go to the definitions then you know you will not forget that means if I without telling that if I go to only definitions and all that you always think that you are talking about single phase no we are talking about general any one phase if I have two three phases in cellular reactor each phase I have to now find out how it is moving what is the distribution there if I say that one phase in mixed flow reactor has not mixed flow reactor cellular reactor has zero distribution what do you imagine there how it is flowing it is flowing in plug flow condition okay so if I say that okay another phase in the cellular reactor is with zero to infinity distribution but exponential distribution so then you have to say that it is perfectly mixed distribution okay perfectly mixed flow so that is why each phase is associated with that the simplest one what you take is of course homogeneous homogeneous reactors okay P f no okay batch P f and M f mixed flow reactors right so what is the distribution here by definition because we already done that so this batch it is not valid at all for us because we are not allowing the particles to move out so that is why there is no distribution because all the particles which entered which I am pouring take out at a particular time so you will have exactly same time so that is why distribution equal to zero P f by definition again here and also P f single phase homogeneous reactors and here also I have only single phase here also I have single phase P f and that means specifically in homogeneous reactors P f ideal plug flow will have one phase and the flat velocity profile here also one phase and exponential decay zero to infinity right so that is how what we define but the moment I go to homogeneous reactors non-ideal homogeneous non-ideal right so this is okay because if it is not non-ideal then again definitely reaction rate will not be that good because at any instant of time throughout the reactor I should have same rate and if I do not provide that kind of mixing somewhere low concentration somewhere high concentrations you will have different rates different places it is not easy to solve that problem that is why we design a better mixer and then try to solve that problem but here I do not have that in my control it depends on the flow right and by mistake all the time many students also think that I think one of my students Krishna Sandilya was sent a mail saying that it seems he went to some place for some interview or something he asked same question whether laminar flow is plug flow and not selections what is that lab exam so then he wrote sorry entire all the people in the lab were telling only laminar flow is beautiful plug flow okay so message has not gone throughout the countries or yours okay yeah so that is what he just sent me two days back that mail because some of us formed a group you know to propagate this kind of concepts outside okay yeah even Jesus Christ had 12 people you know disciples just to go and then propagate the entire good things you know across I mean every religious that big man will always have the people like this okay just to go and then tell that okay this my Guruji is telling so this is to follow follow follow so like that so that is why here if I have plug flow sorry if I have laminar flow definitely the distribution is different ideal plug flow distribution equal to zero what kind of distribution you get for laminar flow by mistake you assume that laminar flow is a plug flow right but in laminar flow the all the molecules are coming exactly at same time no definitely not right so that is why and you also know because fluid dynamics is very clear for laminar flow one particle will come which is sitting on the top of tip of the that profile at the centre point so that will come fastest that means that will spend the minimum time so we know that is t bar by 2 from then onwards average yeah for maximum yeah yeah t bar by 2 only it spends but I think that comes a maximum velocity okay so that is the time it spends I am talking about in terms of time and what is the other extreme the first particle what you see is a time t equal to t bar by 2 that means 10 10 minutes if you put 5 minutes later you can see that before that it will not come if it is ideal laminar flow afterwards till what time it comes till infinity why infinity you have to give the reason when you can do some particles where do they go near the wall velocity equal to zero when velocity equal to zero it cannot move so it takes infinite time okay few particles right yeah so that is why it changes now from t bar by 2 at t bar by yeah t bar by 2 to infinity but this is not the same distribution as mixture flow where that is zero to infinity but the function is different that is exponential decay this is some other function which we will derive out sometime okay so that is why so mixture flow of course we know ideal things okay good so the moment I go for away from mixture flow plug flow ideal plug flow then I have non ideal flow like even laminar flow is a non ideal flow with respect to plug flow correct no ideal flow is zero zero distribution but I have distribution so that cannot be plug flow right and also as I told you axial mixing some particles will be going like this like this right like that Tirupati q I told you people going and pushing backward forward there is a dispersion zone inside that q so those people will be moving backward forward backward forward like that so that is very bad for conversion because a molecule already converted will come and join with the other molecule which is just fresh fresh means in that zone okay so that is why that will reduce the concentration that will reduce the conversion that is bad that is a non ideal good so like this now heterogeneous reactions heterogeneous reactors reactors we have the easiest one is packet bed we have fluidized bed reactor and we have moving bed we have rotary kill rotary kill and how many other reactors you know still further bubble collars that is gas liquid system very good yeah trickle bed react trickle beds very good yeah air lift loop reactor yeah you can you can you have many air lift what is this loop that is the name of the reactor air loop reactors okay yeah that is true it is there yeah still bio towers bio towers bio towers means what do you have inside cells and then how the flow is is there gas going in inside that yeah that is bubble column okay that is bubble column but you have solid particles I think microorganisms can be treated as particles sometimes so then if you are considering them as three phases then you have particles in the form of microorganisms then you have gas and then you have liquid so that also will be equivalent to yeah extra there reactors are not huh which reactor those are nuclear you know the bad thing with the nuclear is there is mass generated and all that we cannot do anything okay those reactors are not considered nuclear reactors are separate okay so that is why yeah okay these are the things now how many phases are here two how many phases are here two and I think we also have three phase predation okay and here moving bed two okay and what we kill yeah and slowly three three yeah bubble column trickle trickle three three yeah packing and then you trickle this week and yes but in the co-current direction yeah again how many of these things are co-current how many of these things are counter cut counter matter because when it's off whether it's sent for bottom or top no problem you should have people like that no absolutely no problem we don't have to worry no no it's not possible no count one huh oh yeah actually there is no current because that is you know the solids are in mixed flow condition and only you can say plug flow for the gas but again big question mark which is right which is wrong you have to wait till next semester to find out what is actual flow in fluidized bed it is very complicated reactor very complicated so the moment you go bigger and bigger more complications will come into picture so okay so then again moving bed simplest one okay allow the packing to move automatically it goes to moving bed you know this packing which is stationary put a hole and then try to remove some solids and also feed correspondingly from the top so here it can be again co-current counter current rotary kiln can be co-current counter current so let me reactor because whenever you have mixing you cannot say which current co-current or counter current because distance doesn't matter no space will dissolve there correct because there is no variation with space right yeah so then bubble columns no you can operate both you can also send liquid from the top and then bubble through and you can also send both from the bottom but I think the reverse is not possible okay so then I think lift the entire liquid that is lift okay yeah your lift reactor you are telling you know so then again take the liquid and again that is what is loop that liquid will come out right that is what the meaning of that loop okay then trickle pet reactors trickle pet reactors gas and liquid can be no trickle pet is always co-current always co-current okay gas is sent from the top and liquid also is sent from the top that is what is the definition of trickle bed if you want to operate you can operate like 3 phase counter current packed bed like absorption also gas from the top it is a packed bed solids are there already packing then you can also send gas from the bottom that can be operated but definition of trickle bed reactor is both coming from the top okay again excellent design things are available for trickle bed reactors because inside if you go there are many many many things are happening in trickle bed in fact all these things I think fluid azure bed and trickle bed are very difficult to design okay but what I am trying to tell you is that now for each phase you have to find out whether it is in ideal plug flow or ideal mixture flow that means zero distribution or zero to infinite exponential decay distribution right so that is why tomorrow I will spend some time we take some two three columns and then I will ask you how the flow is taking place and what kind of assumption we can make whether zero to zero distribution or zero to infinite distribution okay


attention please so welcome everybody I'm here again if I didn't see if you didn't see me before my name is Luca I'm gonna present you're gonna show you like ignition which is something that we mentioned already before I'm not the main developer ignition I'm just another guy coming for us if you want to thank somebody for all of these design whatever like go to this fine guy here he's the main developer in Montana right now I'm gonna give like it's a lot of content it's pretty packed as a presentation don't worry if it is something it's gonna be online so I'm coming from CoroS I'm mostly like an engineer I'm a developer used to do like Rust and Go I was I am in the free software ecosystem like since forever pretty much I work at Rated nowadays as you know after the acquisition I'm Italian I actually work in Berlin we still have the CoroS office there if you pass by say hi and before I was working in security this talk is pretty much like giving an introduction to ignition and then zooming into the details starting from like why we did that so learning from history in order to write something that fits better for the future so the first thing the really first thing is like what is the context of all of this the context is we ship a distribution and we have some programs we have some tasks to tackle and there are some projects that exist in order to solve these programs tackle these tasks and sometimes they are good they are like well done and they exactly fit in what you are looking for and sometimes they are kind of like everybody's using them they fit well in the like larger use case but for your specific things they are not exactly what you would like and our context is we're coming from shipping a distribution actually we we are still planning to ship a distribution let's say so back in the past which is called CoroS container Linux this is this distribution is a bit like different than the usual Linux distribution it is meant for what we would call an immutable infrastructure which is a place where you can quickly and like easily recycle machine so your servers are kettles you can throw them away and spin up new one in that environment you want to kind of like to kind of like a quick provisioning the OS itself it's something that you don't care about we ship it for you and you only provision it you apply your configuration to that to that extent the OS itself is immutable it means that like you cannot control it we ship slash user for you so for user partition which is read-only you cannot touch it at all and this user partition is as minimal as possible there are no interpreters inside so don't expect to run your own like Python program on top of the OS itself and there is no package manager so you cannot install other stuff but the nice things if you if you put yourself into these context is that you can quickly do out updates like you have two partition you use an active one you update the passive one you reboot into the passive one something goes wrong you go you roll back to the previous active one that's our context next problem is we made a distribution you boot it somewhere and you want to customize it you want to provision it the result for doing that which is called cloud unit it takes care of rendering like the early initialization of cloud instances and it has like a few let's say details implementation or design details the first one it's it's a collection of Python scripts and modules it takes some specific input in this case it's like some YAML user data and it is like a loose collection of services that runs at several points in in the boot so in the initial lifetime of a node but also like during farther cycles there is like an asterisk there is like as everything in engineering it depends it may run on the first boot only or it may run also later on there are few variables to play here with these two object in M like there are problems the first one is like the first set of problems like it's only relevant with these two elements together like first you need Python interpreters and we don't have you need Python libraries for cloud unit we don't plan to ship them cloud unit itself wants to control the package manager to install stuff from the US but there is no package manager and many other features that don't fit so well into this use case and basically this boils down to this distribution it's minimal it's read only and it's completely based on on system D then there are few more problems that are kind of like general to the design of cloud unit from our point of view of course the first one is it takes YAML as input which is pretty good as a human interface but as a machine interface so when you want to process it in a pipeline is not what you would expect it's configuration is a mix of declarative and imperative statements so you can declare something and then you can also say but I want to run these other commands arbitrary stuff the setup the provision itself rates with everything else so it's just like another service that is booting together with other stuff and it's running too late like if you want to configure the network but the network is being set up at the same time then you have like races and probably you're gonna run after the network is already set up and then again like it's hard to control like it can run a mood it can run like in multiple places multiple times or it may not it's quite hard to make a mental model of this and the kind of like the the drawback of this is that it can fail at any point in this process and you may or may not realize it like your node maybe left half configured but the service that you care about maybe they started but some other they didn't and you don't realize so it's like all you know it's pretty well as a configuration management for a mutable OS this is exactly what we are not doing and that's why we had to do something in order to first ship and the things that is we plainly ported it from Python to go so we've wrote something which is called chorus Claudine which is basically a subset of Claudine it takes the same cloud config but it's not written in Python in just like a go native library a go native application so it's self-contained it has like a few a subset a minimal subset of the cloud config so for example you cannot install packages of course and then we also did a bunch of stuff for like what we actually want to do which is like some sugar for it's in the flannel Docker whatever it was good like that that's what we ship for for a long time it was what initially everybody was using to provision container rooms problem is there were a lot of caveats like you had to exactly know the same things that you that you had to know for Claudine it which was not great and at the end like people were abusing it as like as a generous genetic split partner they were dropping their own logic as like imperative logic inside and that was like the context where we were starting when we started shipping something on top of that we actually had a few wish lists so it's like those are real problem but on top of that there are some things that if we had to start again we would do in a different way in order to get some nice results here and there so the first one of course is like the clarity of configuration we want to have like some documents that say you know the clarity way how the machine should be provisioned this document should be machine friendly that is should be easy to plug it in a pipeline when it is produced somewhere it is consumed somewhere else and in the middle there could be like other automated steps it should be an atomic provision so it should be either provisioning in a successful way or the node should not proceed into booting some services and the last step is this provisioning step is something that happens before the node is actually running and the services are actually running it's a precondition for that so it should not interfere with the rest of the boot and at the same time it should not be dependent of how the rest of the services are booted and are ordered and this is kind of like the whole setup of this discussion so what we did is like we started shipping something we took note of all the problems and details and then we went back to the whiteboard and started like drawing stuff and thinking about things the first one of course is like well we don't want to write C we need something that is compiled to native and at that time we're sticking to go pretty much everywhere which is a good choice simple to learn compiles to native binary the next one is well let's look at the boot of the boot process per se there are a few steps when you boot a machine and right now we were focusing like on the last part only like there are system these services and we can set up stuff in there and it's running together with everything else but actually before that there are a few steps there is one which is like very low level which is whatever your host fear where your machine is actually booting so like BIOS, UFI, some kind of net booting some other like more Arkane hypervisor things then there is a further step which is kind of like still related to the one before which is you need a bootloader and the bootloader is somehow dependent on the architecture and the way that you are booting it so in most cases is grab but there are a few cases where it's like pixie booting, ISO booting, some other things and then there is like one step in the middle which people are usually forgetting which is like there is an e-tron of FES so there is an early use space which looks exactly like a Linux user space but it's not the final Linux user space and the idea was like let's try to put something in here so that we can actually do the provisioning before booting into the real system the e-tron of FES is nice because compared to I don't know grab the bootloader or UFI stuff it's still a Linux system it's a minimal Linux environment it can still run a system D so you still have like multiple services and proper like supervision of them but at the same time like it's not the full system so it doesn't depend of like having all the details in the storage or the network or all the other application services being run and you don't care about them and at the same time you can initialize them here so you can provision you can configure them which means that more or less putting these ideas all together we are now drawing on our whiteboard something that looks like this let's focus on this intermediate step where we have an early use space let's make it like a similar as the final user space as possible so let's use system D and service units everywhere and let's stick a component here instead of clouding it in here so that provisioning happens here and if it successful then we continue booting and if not this is a real barrier so the node doesn't move the last idea is while we need a machine interface possibly something where we have like a schema to define it and that is JSON schema there are the discussion about like data interchange format is like unless you can pick whatever you want I was not there at the time when we pick JSON but my point of view is it's easy to consume and to produce from pretty much like any language that you can imagine it is actually a machine friendly there are a few gotchas that you learn after a bit but it's like in general it's way more straightforward than trying to process like YAML in a programmatic way but it's still human readable so it's like it's not binary it's not something really opaque and on top of that like it's nice because you have schema but it's not in-band you can like provide to producer and consumer an out-of-band schema and you can auto generate stuff based on that and those are pretty much like all the components that we put together when we were thinking how to do it and that's the idea that's the whole idea of ignition it's not complex there is nothing magic in it it's pretty much like put these together and then implement it and that's and now it's like we are just zooming into the implementation like the most interesting part was so far like what we covered already from here on it's pretty much is like implementation details a general overview is what we what we just saw so it's it's a first boot only also configuration tool it doesn't run on subsequent boot the user data is fully declarative so you don't take it's not like a runner for some script per se it just like take json file j sorry json document with some specific content and it renders it into the into the file system it runs in in it from FS which means that if you want to repartition your root disk or if you want to reformat your root file system you can because you're running in it from FS so it's still like live from memory and then you can boot into the real the real root file system it takes type json as input which is like important because if you want to process it automatically you want a definition somewhere and then there are a few like nice things that is given that is still like a full provisioning system it can actually like reach out to some other services like if you are on a cloud on a cloud provider you can reach to I don't know your bucket system with authentication and stuff and that's the URL if you want to check it yourself that's a very high level overview a smaller like a lower level overview is that ignition is actually comprised of several stages the the first one is not ignition itself is external there is something which is assistant degenerator plus some other logic which is actually able to detect whether it is the first boot or not and by default if it doesn't detect it is the first boot then it doesn't run then there is kind of like a common part which is not a stage per se which is like fetching this configuration I will show you later how to fetch this configuration and where it is stored but after this configuration gets some out into your node into the nitrame FS it goes through three stages in order right now a disk stage which is let's partition and format all the all the file system that you need if you want to reuse some file system some disk you can just like declare them and make sure that they actually match whatever you had pre provision and what the configuration expect then there is a file stage which is that's right some comment some some content sorry into these five system and then there is a quench stage which is this like magic atomic provisioning which basically means if at this point this service didn't fail so then the provisioning was successful if the service failed then we don't continue booting we stop here and we go into an emergency mode in nitrame FS which means that if you if you get to here you are very good you're not just booted and bootstrapping a cluster or doing whatever you're asking for that's like you know probably in a clearer way if you remove these mouse courses in the middle this description like stages and stuff and this is what I just like described you by words and this is actually like those are system these service unit and that in those are the real common for that one step back we mentioned before you need to get this input this user data from somewhere and that's the part this is something that we are mentioning a talk before like the images the instances themselves they know they can introspect on which cloud provider on which platform they are running so they can ignition can provide like specific fetch a configuration fetches platform provider for those right now ignition sports the usual suspect like all the Azure AWS we will cloud digital ocean blah blah blah it also supports like some bare metal or bare metal like environments like usual pixie booting or trivial FTP there are in some cases there are like back channel to the hypervisor like you know for example expose some back channel where from the from the gas machine you can ask the OS machine to provide you some data and this data is the user data and then at the end of the day like you when you are provisioning your node you can specify whether to use the whatever is the platform specific fetch or something different like I can be on AWS but I want to fetch some remote like my own HTTPS point and you can pretty much like mix and match we are almost getting to the end last thing is we are taking Jason here we are taking Jason here because again it's a machine interface you don't have to write it by hand but you can auto generate stuff that's actually what ignition does internally internally we've write the JSON schema and then we auto generate the code for that for ignition this schema is sorry the schema that we define so far is pretty much like whatever we as operator would expect from a provisioning system which means that you can provide a single configuration but then this single configuration can reference other stuff like you can reference another document to replace it or you can reference like farther snipset in order to chain them all together if you want to have some kind of like templating system which is useful for like dynamic generation so a node can ask like dynamically what will be my user data whenever I boot you don't know in advance but there is like a dynamic service providing it and it's useful for like stopping like there's a stub here go fetch it from some other I street back and it is version which means that like we don't break it when we break it we change the major some version stuff and we try to kind of like fast forward all configuration to new configuration without breaking compatibility that's the thing like we support out updates so you can start from like another version and we try to bring it forward of course like when there is a major compatibility break then like something is not supported we may not be able to do that again go check it there are a few examples and I show some in the presentation before final slide I think yes friends like these again I'm stressing these don't write these Jason configuration by and this is meant to be a machine interface and that means that we as the solution developer we have to provide you some tools but you as like a community you can write your own tools this is actually what happens like we have a tool which is like very basic again we are like we're startups we don't have like people located to project with cobalt things together whenever we need them the first example is the CT it's a configuration transpiler from Yamal to Jason it just adds a bit more logic into the final Jason but here's a user you've right then other people wrote provider for us like there is a Terraform provider if you are into Terraform in general you just define your TF configuration and then Terraform compiles down to Jason there are more advanced stuff like you can dynamically generate these and plug it together into a pixie environment so that's what matchbox does so that the pixie environment is a bit is a is able to provide dynamic configuration to DOS whenever they ask they are asking for it and then the last example is something that is currently being worked on which is you can install a full cluster this way which is kind of like the final conclusion of all of these you can bootstrap a cluster and you don't have to care about single machine configuration provisioning and installing single packages in these machines because the provisioning is done in a ton in an atomic way in any time fast and when the machine boots it only takes care of bringing up all the higher level cluster orchestrator and not like configuring the machine stuff you don't have to SSH into that which means that you can basically like start from scratch and bootstrap a full cluster in a declarative way and that's it the only things that I wanted to mention is like thanks to an exo-league of our of our Dalton which made some of the graphics for that and it's kind of like an inspiration for both the software and this presentation that's it for my side questions so the question is like I'll update the system safely so the answer to that is completely unrelated to this talk which is you as the infrastructure owner you have two approaches one is like your infrastructure is immutable which means that it never changes and whenever you want to change your configuration you do this like quick recycling of a new node and throwing away the old node so that you know that like one old one node is booting with a configuration and for the whole lifetime it will always have the same configuration that's one strategy yet but it's like that's possible in some cases in some other cases not there are other strategies which is like you provision the node in this way so you have all the nice things in here and then you have another component which is typically part of the cluster orchestration itself which takes care of like further further mutation of this configuration of the node that's okay like you have something that owns changes for the rest of the lifetime of it and it's auto-scope for how you first provision this node but then you have you may have a problem at that point which is like if you're not careful in what's going on you may have a skew between new nodes coming coming up with a ignition configuration and all nodes being updated in some other way that's that's what like the open-shift before the strength is trying to do which is like using the same ignition configuration for both the initial provisioning and having something else an operator in Kubernetes which takes kind of like updating the configuration whenever something change but in general like it depends where you are coming from where this is coming from or more on the side of like my infrastructure is immutable and we can recycle things and where typical like RAL or Fedora distribution are everything is mutable and you can mutate it at any point but then it's like it's harder to guarantee that everything is aligned I agree I see that I see that problem and they are kind of like different different talks and the problem of clouding is that it was merging the two together that was like configuration management and first boot provisioning so context not anymore I this the first three slides were kind of like historical context and those were like container Linux stuff so container Linux does it container Linux is still available but it's not something that we're pushing for them so it's not in anything Fedora know this is kind of like a generic upstream project you can plug it whatever you want but in Fedora world no so it is internally sorry the question is like which kind of storage technology do you support and are you provision that it is internally shelling out to a few utilities like SGDs kind of KFS or whatever and the thing is it can learn new stuff like you can do it can already do RAID in the future will probably may be able to do LVM things the problem is those utilities those things must be in the initramfs and the initramfs must be able to on subsequent boot to do the same kind of logic so like unlocking and putting everything together which is kind of like simpler in Fedora world it was way harder in container Linux world where the initramfs was immutable so we had to decide before before and what was going to be inside the initramfs this is something that we are actively like brainstorming how to do more things we already support something if you go into the schema documentation it says what but for example like it doesn't support encrypting the root of s because encrypting the root of s it's easy it's easy to unlock it when you are creating it but then you must have a full chain of things that are able to unlock it later and we are speaking about fully automated operation so not like asking the user for password for this that's clearly like simpler but it's not it's not in this code so the question is like how does this kind of provisioning reacts to changes in the external environment that are either hardware or software in your case and the and the answer is again like these two strategies you can say these changes don't happen like if I know that some problem for some whatever reason we just reprovision it from scratch with the new configuration which is kind of like again it depends how much control you have on these and the other answer is like well there are things that are always changing on the outside and you have to introspect anyway it's the case for example of like cloud metadata you cannot know them in advance and then in that case it's something else part of the US must be able to handle this kind of like mutability at runtime that's example for like chorus metadata it's something very simple and stupid but it's exactly that like there are things that are changing later and you cannot predict them when you're provisioning an old first and they may change later that's by design in that case like something else must take care of these mutable mutable stuff and there is no way that you can do it like from immutable provision at this from my point of view that's a no no answer but I know but in general but on bare on bare metal in bare metal is basically like a hard or bad because you are not in this like my servers are cattles like your servers are real hardware and you have a limited amount of them yes that's that's especially a bad case I know there was one last question so the question is like what about more advanced network configuration that you have to support there are two parts in this question one is network configuration in final OS and network configuration in the intramfs so it's like network configuration in final OS it's easier let's say because we have this in intramfs we configure whatever that also means like producing a configuration for your network manager which may not be network manager but your network manager and then when the system boots is basically like the full boot since the beginning already knows about the network configuration and that's the easy part let's say the hardest part is how do we configure the network in the intramfs so if you have something like special like I have three interfaces and only one of them as a gateway like an arcoded one and I have to use that in order to get the ignition configuration and that is the tricky case and that tricky case right now is handled by gluing together a few things including like kernel parameters and other stuff but that is again like it's a special yard environmental but it's trivially silly in cloud environment because cloud environment they don't have this problem like you know that you have the ACP you know that you have the first interface you know that you can reach the metalism point over that that's covers like 90% of the case and then there are the additional one which is like bare metal custom static configuration and those are like painful yes there are ways to do it and we my answer usually is your infrastructure should be an API as well so you shouldn't have a static configuration for that you should be able to spin a note and the note should be asking something else how to get this configuration and then in that case it works a bit better because we can now to discover that configuration apply it in a fast and proceed I guess is the last one that's all they take it out thank you very much