Ex nihilo nihil was written by malice a forethought you can find it on the scp wiki and a link in the description below It is under a creative commons attribution share alike 3.0 license. I wake up and I wonder once again what I am What I was meant to be I? Move though I will my limbs not and as I walk through the darkness I feel them scrape upon one another and crunch on On the brushed concrete floor This is not life They open the door and my body freezes The light is so bright it burns And although I have no eyes to see I know it is there They move slowly around me and I cannot run I Can never run even when they can no longer see me I'm a slave to myself to my shapeless limbs Sometimes before I kill them I look at myself at my gray Formless hands at my misshapen head at the walls of my prison at the floor Stained red and brown by the substance that I will into being I Am a statue, but I have no beauty. I move constantly, but I have no purpose I am a thing without form or function I am not art They come and they look at me. I feel their stairs bore into my hollow body Probing for any hint at my tormented mechanism. It continues for days for years The burning light the inevitable darkness They've stopped now They know there's no more to learn I Wasn't made for them nor they for me I'm no plaything of theirs and I am not wonderful It is possible that I was a gift of some kind, but it's hard to imagine What good I could possibly do in this world? My frame is weak and I have no kindness to bestow. I Can't control the crimes I commit and I can only commit those crimes My life is not mine to give and I know in my heart that they will not take it I will never know the pleasure of death Whoever created me was not charitable It is true that I am beyond their comprehension and that they hold me in reverence It is the reverence of the damned I kill for pleasure and the pleasure is not even mine to have My painted mask runs red with blood and I know that there is no God for if there was He wouldn't let me live I'm an abomination a Threat to both good and evil in a world of black and white. I dwell in the graves. I Have been called many things But never divine So what then is my ultimate fate? Not to be bought and sold as a commodity. I know that I'm outside the reach of mere wealth Those that hold me in their possession would rather see me ground to dust than traded his merchandise Nor my weapon I'm weak Despite my strength. I'm murder, but I do not harm unjustly And I'm not under the control of a single person. I have no knowledge to impart No joy to bestow no tasks to fulfill. I Don't even scare them anymore disquieting though my visage is Amongst a web of life. I am a dying prisoner in a shell of clay a single object doomed without purpose Without any source of respite To subsist as I do now is to die a death more potent than that suffered by mortals. I Can only dream of having the vitality did they take for granted No one takes responsibility for my actions save myself and even I am unable to speak out against the world My legs walk onward Tracking pathways through the brown and red Awaiting the pain that comes with the light and the darkness that hurts me even more in my cage of brick and steel In my cage of dye and dust I am Alone Thank you very much for listening. I'm still in well I wouldn't say incredibly sick, but I'm still pretty sick I have a cough that won't go away if anyone was watching the video on Thursday They probably noticed that I was a little rough and if you hear my voice right now And you don't notice that it's a little rough then well, I guess I'm doing better than I thought but I It's been it's been bad But I'm better now. I got real sick pretty sure it was on the crown But I didn't take a test to know for sure, but I had the aches the chills the fever You know muscle see muscle aches chills I also had a symptom I've never really had before which Was night sweats, which I learned is actually afterwards. I learned is actually an Omicron thing I knew Omicron thing But yeah, it was a fun weekend. We'll put that way But doing better now except for my voice and my cough But other than that, you know, I just wanted to get a video out today But I knew I wasn't gonna be able to do a whole lot. So I thought I'd do a short reading Just say hello and get something done and then hopefully by Thursday. I'll be able to do the video I wanted to do today In the meantime Thank you very much for watching If you enjoyed the video hit the subscribe button and then hit the notification bell next to that so you're notified when I upload new videos And then head on over to patreon.com Ford slash D Sumerian and pledge at any level like everybody here on the screen already has Including send you Ricky who has pledged at $100 and MC casuals pledged at $50 It's nice to know that I'm not alone out here and I will see you all again on Thursday


to start, I just told you. Yes. Good evening. Today's session is more focused on the, as Dr. Nilima Bhatpre, a former associate professor from ILS has written on the social media that it is for the young students of law who actually intend to take the practice into litigation. Basics of mootings, as they say that the nurseries would reflect that what type of plant or a tree in subsequent years one will come. The mooting is not only to moot an idea, but is also the expressions to come forth while you express yourself, not only during the year, being a student of law. They say that as a lawyer also, you continue to remain the student of law. So if you are fundamentals during the mooting, becomes better. It has been the past experience that such students of law normally tend to be a good litigation lawyers. And also, even if they are not into litigation, their power of expression is also better. As they say that the power of pen is mightier than the sword. And those who have been following up beyond law CLC, they know that we have taken sessions with Dr. Nilima Bhatpre. Her sessions are fantastic. And those who are connected right now at subsequent point of time, they can visit the website of Dr. Nilima, OrbitraDicta.in. You will deep dive into various aspects, which will help you to understand various facets of law and beyond law. Without taking much time, I would request Dr. Nilima to take over the session. Before that, I will just express the gratitude on behalf of all these participants, watching us live and later on, that you have been always kind enough to share your knowledge. Over to you, ma'am. Thank you very much, Vikas Ji. Let me first ask, can you hear me properly? Yes, ma'am. Yes, very good. A very good evening to all who have joined this session. And the best wishes to all who will be attending this session later. I enjoy talking on beyond law CLC. But more than that, I like to listen or see the videos, especially on criminal law and law of evidence. They have so many practical inputs. So it's always a pleasure to come and talk on this forum. What I wish to consider today are the basic aspects of mooting. In my career as a teacher, almost for 20 years, I looked after what we call the mooting department. And I feel proud that from a participation of three competitions in 1995, when I took up this department, in 2011, when I handed it over to another teacher, our teams at ILS participated in almost 90, 90 competitions. And we tried not to repeat a single member. And so we had almost 300 students keen to participate in moots. They loved doing moots. Winning or losing was not important. Participation was important. So how can mooting be enjoyable? And how can we do it effectively now so that we not only can moot, that is work in litigation, but we also build certain skills which are very useful as a lawyer? Yeah. Vikasji, please confirm that the presentation is changing. I suppose it is changing. Now, what is a moot? A moot is a simulated court. We pretend that we are in a court. To some extent, it is acting. And in a moot, we present arguments on points of law. There are, of course, trial moots as well, where there are trials. But generally, moot courts are about arguments. But they are different from arguments in courts because there is a time limit between 10 to 20 minutes. It's a very short time indeed. The case is not judged, but the performance is judged. So one has to pay attention to how you have built your argument and how has the performance been. And lastly, it is good that clients' interests are not at stake. So one is free to express as one wants. One is also free to commit mistakes or raise novel arguments without the fear that someone will heckle or someone may not like it. And therefore we should consider mooting as an opportunity to be able to learn the various skills that are involved. So why should we moot? We moot so that after a while, we have the courage to stand up and talk. And not just stand up and talk, but also to talk in a convincing manner. There is a method of working which we adopt. Just as we say that if you are a chartered accountant auditing account books, there is a method in which it is done. Similarly, in a moot or in presentation of arguments, there is a method of doing different things. And that method, it may be different across regions. It may be different for civil law and criminal law. But the method usually is there are lots of similarities in it. We also develop some skills. For example, the skill to pick and analyse the most important facts, skills of research, the ability to apply legal principles in diverse situations, the art of presenting arguments, but the art of presenting arguments in a manner that will persuade. And this is where the whole court atmosphere and the personality of the judge is important because it is that one person who we have to persuade. Even in a moot, we have to persuade the judge to be able to convince him that my performance is good. And more than that, what I consider important is that having developed these skills, they become habits. Have you ever seen any senior lawyer go through the brief quickly and pick up facts in the first reading? Do you mean to say that I was able to do that in the first reading? Not at all. You have to build that skill over time so that it becomes a habit. And that habit making is what we have to achieve. So let us understand what is a skill. These are some definitions I have caught on the internet. You should be able to do something well. Then you say you have the skill. We have knowledge. I know something. But am I able to use it effectively to execute, that is to carry out something or to perform? So I know that the thrital is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 16 beats. But am I able to use that while I am singing a tune? This is a skill. And this skill, it is an ability which you acquire by training. You cannot acquire it by just listening, by hearing, by passively taking things in. But you have to work in order to do it. So I always consider these examples of chapatis or cycling. So let me consider both examples. There are so many videos on YouTube about how to make chapatis. I call them chapatis. They are called different things in different parts of India. They are also made in different ways. So so many videos are there. My mother has shown me how to make one. I want to learn to make it. So I visit my friend who makes wonderful chapatis. And she shows me how it is to be done. I read lots of articles about how to make beautiful chapatis. Special tips, special tricks. Special tricks. However, I will not be able to make a good chapati unless I do it myself. So we all know that if you attempt to make a chapati, first it will turn out to be different maps. But ultimately I will be able to roll one so comfortably that it will turn out well. Now rolling is one thing. Cooking is another. But my point is not that once I know the skill of making ordinary chapati, then I can apply it for making parathas, for making puran puris and so many ways in which stuffed rotis are made. So I must have that basic skill so that I will be able to apply it to something different. So I must know how to present an argument so that I will be able to apply it for the purposes of a civil case, for the purposes of a criminal case, for the purposes of appeal or a writ petition and so on. Or in arbitration. I should be able to use that skill to talk while I am standing which is in the court. Or in arbitration when I am sitting, these are very two very different things. Right? The ambience also makes a difference. So once you are comfortable in the basics of this then you are able to apply it in diverse circumstances. It is similar thing with cycling. You watch many videos. You watch your friends go on the bicycle but you cannot cycle or bicycle unless you have used it yourself, you have fallen once or twice and then you start taking care. But what happens when you learn to bicycle? Then you can skate, then you can use the scooter, then you can use the motorcycle then you can go motorcycle riding up to Lea and Ladakh and so on. So you know something basic so that you can apply it further. And that is why I feel that mooting is a very very important task that every student should undertake. Never mind don't go for a competition just moot. Just form groups and moot so that you acquire those skills. And the point is that it doesn't come automatically. The more you spend time in your five years or three years of college or your law school to be able to work on this, the better it will be when you join any profession. More than that I also believe that the skills which you learn will be useful to you even if you do only convincing work because the knack of taking facts applies there as well. Or if you do consultancy work because what is consultancy after all, you have to predict what a court will do. So your process is almost the same. Whether you work in litigation in appeal or in other fora where only arguments are given and there are no trials. Wherever you apply your legal mind, even if you're in a company advising the company and the legal department even there you have to have a certain skill of say collecting facts searching the law, applying legal principles. And in that sense all the skills you learn will be useful, whichever field you want to go to. So what are the skills which we want to do when we mode? I mentioned them just now. Let me take them up in detail. First is all modes are based on facts. In fact, any task of a lawyer has to have facts as the base. And on the basis of the facts, the lawyer is able to advise. So there are hundreds of facts and from which one should be able to collect the most important facts necessary for this exercise. So if you're advising the facts you collect might be different. If you are litigating the facts you collect will be different. So you should be able to collect them, then to select them, then to change them in a certain manner and then to analyze. Having collected the facts you should be able to ask what is the broad branch of law? Is this the law of thoughts? Is this a law of contract? Is it a mixture of contract and thought? Is it sale of goods or is it carriers act? Is it billment or is it pledge that is a type of billment? So we should be able to figure out what is the broad field of law in which I have to work. Then we go to that law and we read legal provisions with understanding. Then we have to research because now we know the focus. So with that focus we can read up more and more. Then we say okay now I have to present in a mood you have to present the case. But if you are in a in a consultant's position then you may have an opinion. So that is the presentation. Then there is articulation. What is meant by articulation? The ability to express thoughts clearly. An articulation is the first step. Am I able to express my thoughts clearly? Take a subject and decide that I will speak two minutes on it. Give two minutes for thinking and then speak for two minutes. If you are able to speak two minutes readily on how you have thought and what you have thought then you are articulate. Then the next step is okay in what other way can I speak? In what other way can I state it? Because my task is not just to state. It is to persuade. So being able to speak what is in my mind is the first step. Then the next step is okay different ways in which I can speak. It is the presentation or the argument and all this is to be done to persuade. So you are persuading when you are writing an advice or you are writing an opinion. You are persuading when you are working in the legal department of a company and you are persuading even when you are arguing in the court. Now mooting is usually with reference to competitions. So the first task is to understand the rules. May I request the organizer not to allow annotations because they are a bit distracting. I think it's called annotations. Some lines are appearing on the presentation. I will just check it out. So even if it is a mode for the purposes of presentation in class that is for the purpose of assessment it will have rules about time limit etc. So first of all look at the rules how much time is there how many rounds are there because if it is a league basis it is easy but if it is knockout then much depends on how you have prepared and how the other team has prepared. The next is learn about the competition where is it, what is its purpose then what about the written memorial etc. Then think of the penalties. Many competitions may have penalties. So if you exceed your time then your marks will be deducted. If there are mistakes in the memorial your marks will be deducted and pay attention to the deadlines always strive to finish something two days before the deadline so that you have time to read it or prepare it again and again. So first part is study the competition read the rules then we go to the moot problem it can be a one page problem it can be a 50 page problem whatever the problem we have to be able to bring down its outline in one small page because it can't be more than that how much can you argue in 20 minutes the points will have to fit in one page so the important thing is to read the problem in detail many times how many times maybe 20 times maybe 30 times maybe 10 times and you have to read it with a different purpose again and again so when we go through the facts of the problem you must catch the flow of facts how has the case developed then you arrange the facts in order of time if dates are given put the date and state what has happened if the date is not given just arrange them one after the other because we generally know the order in which things have occurred there is one thing we remember in a mood that facts cannot be challenged sometimes the facts may be inadequate then you have to rest your case or base your case on inferences maybe you can ask for clarifications but don't expect that clarifications will come they might come please remember that even in a court whatever facts have happened have happened even the lawyer cannot fight with them the lawyer cannot say oh why did you do this like this you have spoiled your case no he has to deal with the facts as they have come sometimes all the facts are not available because the client is unable to locate documents etc so the lawyer has to work with whatever are the facts okay and in a mood remember you can't manufacture facts but you can draw an inference and you must be such a master of facts that after you have studied them there should be no need to go back to the problem about the facts okay this is a skill how do I know that it's a skill I used to practice long ago first I practiced for 13 years then I joined academics and my senior when he had an argument you know in a civil case the brief is when it comes for argument the brief is already about 10 years old but my senior used to pick up the brief go through the brief and very rarely wrote 3 or 4 dates on a piece of paper but he knew the facts so well and he remembered them so well that he could narrate them before the judge through the argument why he had the habit of locating the correct facts at the correct place in the documents this is a skill and it comes only by practice so let me read with you this case I have created it for the purposes of our discussion Mr. Bayer who belongs to Bangalore B&B he sends an email enquiring about X product of Mr. Seller Mr. Seller emailed the quotation for X product the quotation stated 25% advance and balance at delivery and 2 subject to Surat jurisdiction only among other things these are the two main things Mr. Bayer posted an order for X products remember posted it's an order 10,000 items at quoted price and he sent Rs. 2,50,000 as 25% advance please remember if it's 25% then you know what is the price of those goods Mr. Seller sent the goods right Mr. Bayer received them and gave a check for the balance of 7,50,000 remember it's not written here whether he gave it at the time of delivery whether he sent it later or he deposited today it is possible you know you deposit the check in the account directly that is not given so the facts are missing so we take the case as it is Mr. Seller deposited the check after 5 days on that very day Mr. Bayer sent a letter to Mr. Seller please make this Mr. Seller I'll just make that correction Mr. Bayer sent a letter to Mr. Seller that the goods are defective and not suitable for his business and the seller can carry them away the check bounced now it's not given in the facts whether Mr. Bayer stopped the check or not so we take the fact as it is Mr. Seller sent a notice describing the transaction and stating your check for 7,50,000 has bounced please transfer the amount of 7,50,000 so he's demanding the price Mr. Bayer replied goods are defective experts report is attached I am not liable to pay 7,50,000 please return 2,50,000 rupees so they both have claims the seller says give me the price the buyer says goods are defective you take them away and return the money Mr. Seller filed a summary suit aha no this is something different in Surat and he filed a suit for the check amount Mr. Bayer deposited in the suit rupees 5,000 as ordered by the court but has not counter claimed the case is for final hearing argue for the parties now notice that the last paragraph is about procedure the earlier paragraph is about the transaction right now we must read this again and again then go to the law and come back again and read and you will find some facts are missing you will find some words are very important for example Mr. Seller sent the goods Mr. Bayer received them means he actually got the goods right so every word is going to have a meaning so we take these facts and we will try to see how we analyze them for the mood now having read the facts again and again and again the first thing we ask and this we ask even when we are consulting or giving advice what is it that you want what is it that the plaintiff wants he wants the price right so now which fact supports the plaintiff for that so let us go back which facts when will the plaintiff be entitled to get the price what should the plaintiff show so that he will get the price well he will have to show here is a contract and I was supposed to send the goods number 2 I sent them number 3 he received them number 4 he gave a check right and therefore I want that amount so these are the facts the plaintiff has to show so you go back to the law and ask yourself what facts can the seller claim the price right now what is the defense and which facts support the defense so what is the buyer's case the buyer's case is that the goods are defective and therefore the goods are defective and therefore there are some facts which will support that defense so let us go back just a minute yeah so what are the facts apparently the buyer has got an expert he checked the goods he found that they are defective he also got an expert to check them and the expert also found that they are defective and he says take away the goods now having said that take away the goods does it entitle the buyer to say I will not pay 750,000 please remember 750,000 was payable at the time of delivery that's what it seems from the facts of the case so it is as if the amount is paid when the check was given it so happened that it was a check if it were a demand draft the money was already gone to the sellers into the seller's hands so we have to ask that the buyer is resisting the claim of the seller for the price are the facts enough to entitle him to resist that claim and that is where we have to go to the law to see what are his rights very often the rights will be in the contract but we don't have the detail contract so we have to go back to the law third which court is it in is it the court of first instance or appeal etc because the arguments are going to change whether it is first instance or appeal and the last is what is the stage of hearing is it interim or final because if it is interim then the focus is very different it is meant only for interim hearing if it's a hearing for injunction you have to speak only of a prime of a C case in a final hearing you are going with all the facts on record and therefore it's important to know whether the hearing is interim or final so having thought about these things we go back to the facts once again and read them with this in mind right now the next point identify and study the law what are the broad subject areas or field in which this operates so what are the areas of course contract act right you have an email and offer and acceptance and it's after all a contract for sale of goods the next is the next is what are the statutes which apply sorry then it is sale of goods and we have another law for sale of goods so we look at the sale of goods act then you read about summary procedure where is that given summary procedure it's in the CPC and it's a suit on a check let's go back to the facts right go to the last point what does this mean what does this mean he is not saying I sold the goods therefore give me the price he is only saying here is a check and it's dishonoured so give me that amount this is called a suit on a check no background need me of course he will say that because I sold goods the check was given now here is the difference what is that difference and for that one has to read about summary suits one has to read about what is a check and that there are two types of suits one is on the cause of action which is the cause of action of the sale so imagine check were not given then how would the seller have demanded the money by filing the suit and showing that he sold the goods and he must get the money but now that check is received and the check is dishonoured he is not saying the goods I gave them, I sold them I delivered, no need he simply says look here is the check and my suit is on the check check is dishonoured, I put it in the bank the bank sent it back to me there is dishonour so my suit is on the check pay me the amount of check this is the type of suit and this suit can be filed as a summary suit so to some extent the negotiable instruments act is also involved before identified four laws or four broad fields of law which are applicable then we go to the statute which is the law applicable then we saw these acts which provisions of that law are applicable now our facts do not tell which court he has filed the suit as he filed it in Surat and therefore the question of jurisdiction is not going to arise here why? because had he filed a suit I am sorry he has filed a suit in Surat he has filed it in Surat so one of the questions which a buyer can take up is whether the Surat court has jurisdiction and that usually is a preliminary issue first to be decided so then we go and ask where is this jurisdiction it's in CPC, it's in section 20 of the CPC and the suit is a summary suit so do the same rules apply to summary suits where is the summary suit it is in order 37 of the civil procedure code what happens in a summary suit well instead of calling for the defendant's reply I am stating it in very simple language normally the court issues a notice asking come and give your reply written statement right what do you have to say in a summary suit the notice which goes is like this why shouldn't a judgment be passed against you you come and tell the court and then the defendant has to come and say please allow me to defend and he has to make out a good case of defense in a summary suit the summary suits are very easy for plaintiffs more than that the defendant may be ordered to pay some amount in the court and you will notice here that the defendant has already been told that you deposit philax it means that he has been allowed to put his defense so he has put his defense and in that case he has been asked to deposit philax so he has deposited philax in the court this whole background of summary suits is very essential to understand what strategy you will adopt when you are arguing the matter ok so that is the first statute that is CPC jurisdiction and summary suit then in the negotiable instruments I will take up the sale of goods I will take up the contract act first now when will Surat court have jurisdiction if the contract is made there but the suit is not on contract the suit is on the check so you have to find out that if a check is dishonored in Surat we are assuming that check was deposited in Surat so if it was dishonored in Surat does Surat court have jurisdiction does the cause of action arise there if I am the seller I will not go to the question of exchange of emails and where the contract is made because my suit is not on the contract my suit is on the check if I am the buyer then I will try to harp upon this fact that look the email was sent from Bangalore which email email of acceptance the order of acceptance was sent from Bangalore and therefore the contract is made in Bangalore therefore Surat court has jurisdiction so which court will have jurisdiction depends upon whether you are considering it as a suit on a check or on a contract and accordingly the arguments will be very interesting arguments on the issue of jurisdiction the second part relating to contract law I mean the other part is about sale of goods so what is the law relating to sale of goods that comes here number one is that the seller is going to say that he didn't return the goods back to us he has retained the goods so is it necessary for the buyer to send back the rejected goods read up section 43 of the sale of goods act this is one so we have section 43 the second question is that if the seller says that the goods are defective can he set it off against the price right so we have section 59 remedy for breach of warranty what does it say that the buyer can do two things he can either set up against the seller breach of warranty in diminution of the price so he says I will not pay the price because the goods are defective or he can sue the seller for damages this is referred to as the right of the buyer to claim a set off read up section 59 and you will get an answer to it so we have section 59 remedy for breach of warranty what is the seller I will say as a seller I will say I don't know about breach of warranty or defective pay me on the check and the buyer is going to say look I can say that if the goods are defective I will not make the payment but then what he can claim as set off is the defect the loss which is caused to be not simply say I will not pay the price he has to show what is his loss in order not to pay the price these are many complex issues which arise out of argument I am not ready to give answers I am only trying to develop what issues can arise in that argument we have seen what are the provisions of the statute and then take those statutory provisions and apply them so I am sure now we have understood this difference between a suit for price and the claim for the buyer making the loss which is caused to be so the buyer is not saying loss he says the goods are defective now where does he take the price of the condition the goods are not according to the contract when he rejects the goods he can claim back the price so there is again another section which means with life condition about description other issues we have I think the first issue that is an actual quote the issue of jurisdiction is very interesting what is the place of use of is it where the contract is we apply the operating acceptance theory or is it where the check is received and dishonor and definitely defendants residence yes but then defendants residence is in Bangalore so that is now no use the whole argument rest upon the next issue is the seller entitled to the check amount I am not saying is the seller entitled to the price because the seller is not claiming the price he is claiming the amount in the check so is he entitled to the check amount I am kindly cross check there is a buzzing sound from your end just check it out we can start off yes ma'am we can start off you have been muted just hold on yes ma'am can you hear me yes ma'am is the seller entitled to the check amount depends upon whether the defendant has made up a defense in the set up a defense who is being defective and you will have to check the mic you will also hear the buzzing sound yes ma'am can you hear me better now yes ma'am can you hear me yes ma'am can you hear me now is this better yes ma'am better yes good and is the buyer entitled to withhold the price I told you we go to section 59 to be able to find an answer we also go to this question of rejecting the goods and what are the rights of the buyer when he rejects the goods and lastly is the seller liable to return the advance back to the facts and it's given here that there is no counter claim the buyer has not claimed 250,000 in this suit so can the seller be made to pay when the buyer has not claimed right so can the buyer claim the advance in this suit also becomes a matter of argument so we have identified basically three issues these are the main things which the court should decide and for deciding those main things we have sub issues in a moot court you should not have more than three main issues if you have ten minutes then you should have only two issues and you must decide which one you would like to argue first if you are the first party starting arguments then you should decide which one you want to argue first if you are the responding party then naturally the choice gets limited because it is based on what the first party has argued now having identified issues and how many times have we read the case at least ten times first we read it to understand the facts but after that also we are required to go back and forth in the facts in the initial stages to be able to locate what exactly we have to do further so now we research the best research is done in books not on the computer at least the text book or the law book relating to that law sale of goods act negotiable instruments act I believe maybe I belong to the older generation but I believe there is nothing like a book to start your study so you are able to keep four books on your table and go from one to the other back and forth and that I think allows us to think better but like I said we belong to the older generation so we locate these provisions in the law we read the commentaries so we may first read the text book as a student then we go to the commentary we may also like to go to the books that discuss theories so you might like to go to theories relating to sale of goods or those books which discuss principles and not provisions and having read the commentaries we locate the judgments and then we read that case law in typically in contract and sale of goods cases it is worth reading foreign case law as well it is not binding on the court we need not quote it also in the court but when we read foreign judgments they give us lines of argument they give us different ways of thinking about the same issues should the buyer only inform or should he actually send the goods back to the seller why is this principle that it is necessary that he should only inform he need not send them himself so understanding this provision is very important if you want to argue so we read case law not just to see what is binding we also read case law of those we also read those judgments which will go against you because the other party is going to argue them and you will have to distinguish them or show that they are not applicable so we actually read case law on all sides and then we pick the best case to talk before the judge how many judgments do we quote before the judge only two if you have 20 minutes probably four your written argument may contain number of judgments which are cited in the argument but when you are speaking to the judge in a moot quote in the course of your oral arguments do not cite and describe more than four cases the other aspect is that if you have quoted say 15 judgments in your written memorial during the course of arguments the judge might ask you that you have quoted here a versus b what is that case about and you should be able to state within three lines what the case is about and what it decides you have to be master of all the case law which is cited in the written memorial of your own side of the other side and you should have them written on slips so that if the judge asks you about any judgment you are able to read out the judge knows that you have studied all the cases for the purpose of describing in the court if it's a very well known case like mori bb's case in contract law you can simply narrate but if it's not a very well known case then you should be able to state in one line the important facts in one line what is the issue and in one line what the court has decided so you should spend about those three or four sentences and that is about one minute for the purposes of describing the case law that you wish to cite so this is about case law now we prepare for oral arguments I believe that we should first prepare for oral arguments and then take up the task of putting together your written memorial the first thing is to prepare an outline then pick up each point in the outline you can keep changing these main points in the outline as you go through you can make the points and insert your commentary within that point at any stage so make that outline then you have to address or decide how you will address the court your argument must have a beginning and an end and I will come to these aspects a bit later you must prepare and rehearse every statement and by rehearsing I mean even rehearse the oral argument a number of times remember the time limit and prepare to finish your argument one minute or two minutes before that time is it a good idea to write out the entire argument not at all when you are doing your first mood perhaps you would like to do that but having written it down keep it aside keep only an outline in front of you and argue on the basis of the outline it has to be that you are having a dialogue with a judge you are not throwing your material on the judge you are trying to convince the judge and have a dialogue and how can you have a dialogue if you have memorized everything so you may write out an entire argument in the initial stages but otherwise you should be prepared to speak from an outline now what are the parts of an argument initially you have to write down all these points but later on the first two points and the last two points will come naturally to you number one is address you say good morning namaste, namaskar do you say madam your honor lordship that is something for you to decide if you are in the high court you can say your lordship although the bar council has circulated to all advocates that they should call all judges as your honor right lordship is a thing of the past however it is a practice to use the word my lord or your lordship if you are in the lower courts you use the words your honor and it's okay even to use the word sir or madam but that is something you decide at the last moment when you see the judge you will come to know how to address him or her then give a one line introduction of what the case is about so if I am appearing for the seller I will say your honor my case is for the amount of the check which was dishonored right if I were filing a suit on the contract and not on the check then I will say your honor my suit is for the price the goods delivered to the buyer if I am the buyer my defense is going to be your honor I am not liable to pay because I have rejected the goods look at the language I am using with reference to the sections which I mentioned which I mentioned to you then state the facts how much time do you spend on stating the facts I would say if you have 10 minutes for argument spend 2 minutes to state the facts important ones and perhaps the rest of the facts you can state during the course of arguments then state the issues very quickly very briefly then state the argument on each issue you might want to argue the second issue first that is fine you state the issues in an order in which the judge is going to decide but when you are arguing you may pick up another issue first and place argument on that first it's a good idea if it's yours is a team of two to divide those issues properly so that each one has equal amount of almost equal amount of time for the purposes of argument then you should not only argue but you should also spend at least a sentence to revert the case of the other party that the buyer cannot stop the payment of 750,000 because he has not stated what loss he has suffered then state the conclusion of each issue therefore your honour this court has jurisdiction the surat court has jurisdiction and then the prayer the prayer has to be very properly stated I have seen so many students who like to say and therefore your honour I request that the court may grant such prayers as may be just and reasonable not at all the judge will only grant you something you want and therefore this is a sentence I quote from one of the lawyers who would come to guide students about mooting he used to say when you are praying you must be the best beggar in the world ask for everything you want so my prayer for the seller in this case will be that therefore your honour I request that the court may order the defendant to pay the amount of 750,000 etc so it will be about probably 790,000 with interest so to pay to the plaintiff an amount of 790,000 at 90,000 rupees other just and equitable orders may be passed and the prayer number 2 will be order the defendant to pay interest from the date of the suit until the amount is paid and other just and equitable orders may be passed please remember prayers have separate marks it's very important to state clearly what all you want if I am the defendant then I will simply say therefore my defendant prays that the suit be dismissed with costs these 4 words are going to matter a lot and after the prayer the judge should know that you have come to an end so you have to say that it's all your honour thank you very much your honour etc so this is the content of the argument please remember that the address takes 20 seconds the prayer takes about 1 or say half a minute and the closing takes about another 20 seconds so the first 2 and the last 2 themselves take 1.5 minutes out of 10 this is how you have to divide your argument in point of time as well now the argument itself it is acting but remember when you wear the coat and stand there you start feeling as if you are a lawyer you are required to think on the feet especially when judges ask questions so when a judge asks questions you must answer it immediately and that's why I said prepare 2 minutes less than what is given as the prescribed time because when you spend time answering the question of the judge you will have to curtail the argument which you have prepared right now here I will pause for a moment and tell you that you have prepared an argument which runs into say 5 pages written matter and you have prepared it so well and you think that everything in it is important therefore you are not able to cut out anything from what you have prepared but you are required to do it because if you argue for more than 10 minutes you will be stopped and the judges will say he hasn't completed or she hasn't completed the argument so we will not give good marks so they will cut it in the cut the marks so the point is that when you are very well prepared for the case then it doesn't matter whether you have 3 minutes or 10 you should be able to state it effectively within whatever time is there and you will be able to do it if you are thoroughly prepared about the contents of the argument and its organization and this is habit forming what is habit forming? the more you do it the more you will be able to organize your thoughts at the moment and the more you will be able to expand or curtail based on the requirements of that moment this applies even in courts sometimes the judge says that I have only 10 minutes I give you 10 minutes and within those 10 minutes so this is the skill which should become an habit then you must know the case thoroughly well so well that you should be able to state it in one sentence okay? then you must maintain eye contact you must speak to the judge look at the judge in the eyes of the judge this is very difficult and this becomes possible only if you know your case thoroughly well if I know something well and I am talking to you because I know it well I take keen interest in stating it and it is only then that I will look into your eyes and speak if I am not prepared then I will avoid looking at you this is natural so be prepared so well that you can look into look the judge in the eyes except for quotations from cases and provisions of law everything else should be stated only from points use correct and formal language to address the judge so we will say so the check was dishonoured when I am arguing I will use the word dishonoured I have used in the facts the word bounced bounced is not formal language so before the judge and never argue with the judge we had at ILS a student wherever he went he always won so he won most of the moats wherever he participated which would be about 2 moats in a year not more than 2 for any particular student he won in the first 2 years and then he never wanted to moat after that whenever I thought that we are running short of trophies I would call him and say please go and moot I want to win we need one trophy so go and he would go and bring it back so I always used to wonder what is it that makes him appear to the judge and the the secret was that whenever a judge said something he would say yes your honour your thinking is very correct so this is what you are saying so he would repeat what the judge has said and then he would say but the facts in my case are slightly different and then he would narrate what the facts are so being able to appreciate what the judge says is very important remember this is a dialogue this is not a fight with the judge and therefore don't argue with the judge where the prescribed dress it has to be formal and it has to be comfortable you shouldn't have shoulders sort of so tight that you are distracted so they are very comfortable clothes a part of mooting is of course preparing the written memorial it's written in formal language it's very important to pay attention to citation and to styles because these carry a lot of marks one should understand the importance of maintaining a certain style like the blue book style and we have to pay attention to good formatting as well but all this citation and style and formatting comes only after the contents are collected then you can pay attention to decorating it properly you must know the case really well and for all this you must practice practice and practice till you get the chapati right or you are able to cycle at a very very low speed so thank you very much if you have any questions or comments they are welcome I will just check out if we have any questions ma'am or sharing your knowledge we don't have on the chat I will just check it out on the YouTube one general question we as a professionals feel do you feel that doing the moots during the college time does it help you to grow professionally yes and I did mention that whichever line of practice you wish to adopt whether it is consultancy whether it is there are many who just do the written work in litigation they do only pleadings whichever work you have to do you have to build these skills of understanding facts applying the law and so on so even as a teacher I was required to do it to understand the facts of a case and to be able to derive the principle and discuss the different principles with the students it will be very useful and second though it is not with the mooting lot of debate goes on as to whether only the best of the national laws etc or other colleges help or you can build the skills of mooting and profession even thereafter what you feel actually grows actually when I was dealing with mooting as a practical training course which is a graded course we have three papers of practical training so I would make all students in my class moot three times in this whole year and in the first two moots out of the three I would encourage them to moot in their own language I said you can argue in Marathi Hindi or Sanskrit because I understand these three languages but if you decide to argue in Marathi you have to argue only in Marathi except that which you quote from English text it's important to be able to express in one language and students made beautiful arguments in Marathi in the first moot once they had that confidence then they moved on to the English language so mooting is a skill mooting for competitions is the next step for which then you must be able to argue very well in English you must practice arguing in English now if you are in a national law school well you have a peer group with whom you can discuss but that can happen even in smaller colleges it's not just national law school teams that win competitions at you know I told you that in 2011 when I was in charge and I handed it over to another teacher if we had participated in about 90 competitions 35 or 36 of them we were either winners or runners up which is a very large proportion ma'am this is by Urshan Khan ma'am can you share how to frame advanced class arguments when we are confused how to start the after in memorial or it after drafting we can use the provision provision language or own it to start can you paste it on the chat here ma'am it's on the chat only ma'am it's on the chat only it's on the chat I will open the chat yes how to frame advanced class arguments when we are confused how to start after in memorial how to start drafting we can use the provision language or own to start as I understand your question Urshan you are talking about arguments in the class right not mooting competitions well we follow the same principle that you first understand and then you express it in your own words but mind you must first find out what your teacher expects and even we were almost 5 teachers we had 5 and 3 8 classes where moot quotes were held as part of the course so we were at least 4 teachers who took up these moot quotes in class and each of us had a different approach so I would allow students to argue in Marathi another teacher didn't do that so it's important first to understand what the teacher expects it's important to talk to your teacher to understand whether you should use legal language or not but I feel that when you are starting it shouldn't matter much what is important is to start so you write down your memorial in a simple language then read up the law and automatically you will be able to convert it please do not use chat gpt when you are preparing if you want to use chat gpt for an effective writing in the journal I wouldn't use it but please do not use it for the purposes of argument something that is original and something that is not original can easily be discerned it takes 20 seconds you look at a person and you know whether this is original of that person or it is copied right then ethical arguments can be used in moot I have not understood the question do you mean to say that we argue on the basis of ethical principles well yes but when there is a clear law then you have to argue law because the decision will be based on law and ethics last question is like people make voluminous memorials yes what to make a brief synopsis what is your take on making the filtering of the facts and law in the most concise and precise manner memorials will have a page limit so usually students tend to go reach that page limit you know up to the last page I feel it is okay if your page limit is given as 20 I have up to 18 pages no need to consume all the 20 pages which has been given a written memorial is marked and therefore for the purposes of a moot it should be neatly done the citations should be correct and they should be correctly stated the style of citing also should be the same so when you are writing all India reporter you should write A I R without full stops everywhere or you should write A full stop I full stop R please follow the citation style which is indicated for the purposes of the competition in the class moot there are some institutions which prescribe that the memorial or your what you write in the journal should also follow the citation style although it is difficult to follow citation style in a written argument which you write in the journal at least at ILS they were hand written if you are using the computer then it is very easy to be strict about styles there is one more thing you know being accurate about citation is a matter of habit the moment you type out the name of the case and the citation the first time write it fully and correctly never say this is something I will correct in the end no write it correctly so that every time you are going to quote it you simply copy and paste what has been correctly stated when I write my articles I always write the full citation the first time I put it in the full note there are no short forms nothing how I want to say remove that and other I remove messes I remove and others and the main citation as it would appear in a case I put it there so the habit of writing the correct citation the first time that is something we must adopt so how to make an outline like I have made an outline for my PPT my outline is an outline I rarely put sentences so you have to look at the point and it comes out here and then you talk about it you narrate it you don't speak out what is in your memory so just as I spoke to you now about this topic about your keys is it mandatory? is it mandatory to produce the whole judgment of a case during oral arguments or is it fine if we just produce the part of the judgment which we have used in our memorial in the class you have to talk to the teacher I am a person who would like to save paper so asking students to bring copies of cases well it means that the student has to spend please remember that sometimes in colleges like even ILS law college there are students who would not like to spend for photocopy the other is that many teachers now have laptops so if you quote a case and you have given the names beforehand the teacher can open it on the laptop and read it when you are in a moot competition it is good idea to carry one copy of the judgment with you which you can produce but please remember when you photocopy a judgment or when you take a print out of the judgment the name of the institution appears on it and you are not supposed to identify the institution in competition moots for example if my student from ILS downloads a judgment from the website the basis of the access which the college gives him then the name of the college appears on the print out so that is something we have to take care of the whole judgment is not necessary but in competitions you never know what views the judge will take whether it is the teacher in the class or it is a judge in a competition or it is the judge in the court we have to understand what the judge expects can we use sayings or quotes of philosophers or any other non-personalities of course but one should be enough if you have 10 minutes for argument I think one quote should be enough yeah so thank you ma'am for sharing all your knowledge on different perspective and there was a lot of emphasis paid on the word habit I have reminded that we had studied that they said the habit word is derived from it bit a bit and then habit so you all have to cultivate and thank you to all the students who have participated and along the other participants and tomorrow we will be having a session on the rule of law by Mr. K. Sundarveil and advocate from Madurai Bar Association do join us tomorrow at 6 p.m. and thank you ma'am keep sharing your knowledge Namaste and wish you all the best thank you