Reporting is in progress. Hi, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the Community Preservation Act Committee. On Thursday, September 14, 2023. I'm calling the meeting to order at 605 p.m. We're meeting remotely via zoom. The meeting is permitted by the town of Amherst and the state. This meeting is being recorded and will appear at a later date on the town of Amherst CPA website. I am going to call on members now to make sure that we can hear you and that you can be heard that you can hear us. So I'm going to go through the list. My name is Sam McLeod on the chair. Bob. Can you speak up? Bob Saul here. Yep. Thank you, David. How's it going to start? Can you hear me? You can hear you now. Okay. Yes, Tim Neil and Bob, which are you representing a certain group? Oh, anything that involves conflict of interest. I'm representing. No. I mean, Bob is are you at large? I don't know. Or Bob is a new at large member. Oh, he's at large. Yes. Okay. Michelle. Yeah, president. Matt. I'm Matt Kane. I'm representative from the recreation commission. Wonderful. So we can all hear everyone. And everyone can be heard. We do need a minute taker for each meeting. I'll volunteer for this meeting to be the minute taker just for ease of. Processes. And then in subsequent meetings, we can continue. So. There have been a few changes to our committee membership. The planning board Andy and Andy McDougal had stepped down. So there's a vacancy on the planning board. Becky Demling had become an at large member and has since was a step down from her post in the last week. Bob Saul is a new member. And we welcome Bob and his experience. He's an at large member and Bob, if you'd like to introduce yourself to committee, that would be fine. Sure. I live here in South Amherst. I am almost retired from a. Career in agriculture and forestry and I'm a farmer locally also. And I've been on the fin com for about six years and a previous lifetime and then the ag commission. So I'm familiar with Amherst politics from a distance. Well, I'm glad you're here. Welcome. And it's good to see you. I know we spoke on the phone back in May. So welcome to our committee. I'm glad you're here. I'm not sure how long this meeting will go. It may go quickly. The thought was that we would have a meeting where we. Last May we decided to have one during the application process in case there were any applicants who had questions. Our first item on our agenda is to elect a chair and a vice chair. However, we do have some members. I don't know how many of them are. I don't know. I don't have any attendance. Robin Fordham has a conflict with a historical commission meeting. And we do have vacancies. In the past we have deferred. Our. Elections and nominations to when we might have a fuller community. And that's fine by me. staff. I'm comfortable continuing to serve as chair until we enact a new one. I would like to hear what the committee thinks on that process. If they're fine with deferring till we fill another seat or two. Last year we only had eight members the entire time, but I do believe there will be a decision made with the planning board and the relative near term. Any thoughts from committee members on this? Tim? Oh, I was just going to, I agree. Thumbs up. Let's continue as we are. And I agree with that. Okay. Any other comments from any other members? I can't see all of you. Just thumbs up over here. Yep. Okay. So we will pass by that time period for the time being.  And we will have a probably in our next meeting the agenda, but based on feedback from town staff and also what we've done in the past, it seems to make sense it's a reasonable process. So the next item on our agenda is to approve any outstanding minutes we last met in May, May 11th, and the minutes are in the packet. The packet has been sent to all members here. I'm not sure who has reviewed them or not. They were generated by Robin Fordham who's not here today. I did review them and make my edits from Robin's template draft prior to submitting them to Holly for the committee. So the current minutes contain my edits. I'd like to ask any committee members if there are comments or edit suggestions for the existing minutes. None. Well, uncertain, we could seek to approve the minutes if folks are okay with that. I'm not hearing any commentary on the minutes. So do we have a motion? I moved to approve the minutes from what's the date? I'm sorry. May 11th. May 11. Is there a second? Second, David. We have a motion. We have a second. Any discussion? Okay, I'm going to go ahead and have a roll call vote on the minutes from the 11th as submitted in the packet. I will vote aye. Tim? I'm staying. I didn't notice the minutes so I didn't read them. Okay. Matt? Aye. Michelle? Aye. David? David Williams? Aye. You don't hear me? We hear you now. Bob? I realized I'll abstain since I wasn't there. Wonderful. So the motion passes with a vote of, I believe, foreign failure and to abstain. Okay. Every meeting, public meeting has a period of public comment or opportunity for the public to speak. And that may be distinct from comments that might come in during a particular agenda item such as application, intranation, or other topics. So I'd like to invite any members of the participant public who wishes to make a public comment to do so at this time. You can raise your hand if you wish. We'll grant you up to three minutes or perhaps longer if needed. I believe you raise your hand or if you're on your telephone, I think it's not you press nine for a comment if folks are attending by a phone. Do we see anyone be a phone, Holly? I do not see anybody raising their hand at this time. I'm not seeing any comments or hands raised from the audience. I'll ask one more time just in case there's a miscommunication. Anyone wishes to make a public comment as a participant? Please raise your hand. Okay, while we're sailing along smoothly. The next item on our agenda is a general overview of the CPA process. This may be a benefit for people who are attending now and it may be a benefit for people who might be looking at this in the future. Are we able to access my screen, Holly? Yes, you are cohost. So you should be able to share your screen. Forgive all the items and data on my screen. I'll try to get to the slide show that I wish to display here. Stay with me, everyone. Can everyone see my screen? Yes, I'm seeing a few thumbs up. Yes, open a slideshow at the moment. So just a brief overview and then we can discuss further. The Amherst Community Preservation Act Committee is chartered to administer the state CPA program in the town of Amherst. The program is one that is funded by tax dollars. Currently 3% of tax dollars are awarded to the CPA specifically for the use of four categories. Stay with me one minute while I change the screen display here to a full screen if I'm able. Slide show. Slide show. Full screen. Is anyone familiar with how to do this on the full screen? Stay with me. Well, we can keep it the way it is. Sam, if you go to the bottom right of your screen, there's a bunch of icons on the right. And the one that looks like sort of a projector screen before the slide bar. Yeah, press that. Okay, it kind of looks the same actually. Now you have to hide your notes. We'll go like this. There we go. So the CPA has four categories of projects that can be funded. Why is this sliding through? The four categories are Historic Preservation, Open Space, Community Housing and Recreation. We receive proposals from applicants, private and public in each of these four categories. There's a brief description of what they are here. We have a typically a budget in the range of $1,000,000 to $1,200,000. $1,200,000 per year it varies, but it's a large amount funded between various projects. It's allocated between the four categories based on the projects that arise as opposed to based upon a premandated amount that we have to spend. The program is designed for the benefit of the community. And we've been as a town, I believe Dave Zomac since 2011, been having the CPA's membership in our community with lots of great projects that have come through. Here are some examples of some open space projects that have occurred. Strong House, Evergreen, Dickinson Farmhouse last year, North Amherst Library, the West Cemetery. There's a whole range of projects for recreation projects such as Groll Park, No River, Kendrick Park opposite where the pub used to be in the East Street building, Plumbrook War Memorial. Recently, we've had housing projects on our slates, the East Street and Belchtown Road Schools, the Valley CDC on North Hampton Road by the Amherst College Football Field, Municipal Affordable Housing Trust, Olympia Oaks, and Wayland quite a lot. This slide seemed to keep, they seem to be forwarding themselves, so I'm going to go back to my screen that I have here where I can manage it myself. And I'll hit the open display. Stay with me, folks. So there's a few things that the applicants need to know. And we're going to go on the website in a minute to look. But essentially, there are four categories available to you, eligible use. And this chart that I'm showing you right here appears within the CPA plan on the website, which we'll show to you. I'm not sure why these are forwarding. And there's basically a listing in the CPA plan of what you can and what you cannot use funds for. It's very much worth looking at. And the key aspect is where it says no, you cannot create historic preservation, you cannot have support funds for historic preservation, more for open space or for recreation. But this table is helpful. We'll go to the town website. This is fast forwarding. So I may skip past this. In fact, I'm going to, I'm going to do something different here. Stay with me, folks. We're going to go to the CPA website on the town of Amherst. And this is what every one of the applicants should do. You go to the town homepage, you go to boards and committees, A through M, anyone who's considering applying through or CPA funds should come to this page right here, which is the Community Preservation Act Committee page. On this page, we've made a few changes in recent years. You'll see a description of our meetings, you'll see our membership and overview. And I want to call attention to anyone who's considering applying to something titled the Community Preservation Act Plan. This document, which you can, you can access by clicking on this page, we'll have most everything you need to know about. It will talk about the eligibility requirements, it will talk about the categories of use, it will talk about the approval process. So anyone who's considering applying for CPA funds, the first place they should go is to this Community Preservation Act plan. It is within our packet here, if you wish to download it from the town site. You can also see prior year proposals on the left. These are listed by fiscal year. Last year's cycle was fiscal year 2024. That means it started in July of 23, and goes through June of 24. Well, you can click on any one of these years on the left, and you'll see all sorts of prior projects that have come before the committee. It can give you an idea as an applicant of the types of projects that have been submitted, how they've been presented. It's quite useful when considering you'll also see over on the right hand side here, meeting recordings of the CPA committee. If you wish to look at any of the prior review processes that we've gone through each cycle, you will find meeting recordings here on the right. The first, we have an application that anyone can find by coming right here on the site where it says apply for CPA funds on the upper left. When you click on this, it brings you right to the page where we have apply for CPA funding, a description of what CPA is, what is the committee, an important set of information relating to what you can do with CPA, how do I apply for funds, the CPA plan, and also a listing of all the various supporting committees. If you're looking for a product, a project related to community housing, it's the Housing Authority and our staff liaison is Nate Malloy, a senior planner, Historic Preservation. It's the Historical Commission. Nate Malloy is the Liaison. Open Space is the Conservation Commission. Aaron Jock is our town liaison and Recreation is the Recreation Committee. Ray Harp is the Liaison. If you click on any one of these links to the right hand side, you can copy the email address and the email address that you copy will be one that is forwarded to the town staff. It's CPAC at amherstgov, amherstmaps.gov, but you can just click on this and forward any questions related to your project. You'll see on this page a listing of the proposal evaluation criteria that the committee utilizes. There's a whole listing here, which also appears on the application. You'll see the submission process that we go through. And again, the email for general inquiries and questions is on the bottom here. I'm going to go ahead and click on the actual application so that anyone attending can see what is there. This is the actual form from which an applicant submits a project. There's instructions, a listing of the criteria, and step by step. What is the project title? How much are we asking for? Which category? It could be in more than one. What is the organization submitting the project request? The proposal? Who's the contact person? Street address? Are you available for a site visit? That is to say if members of the committee wanted to come by. What days are best? Email address. Who's on the project team? If you have a website, let us know. And this is the important portion of the proposal overview. What is it you want to do? What is it you want to have funding for? A description of the funding that's needed. You can upload your budget estimates here, your timetable, urgency of the project, and then a few other questions regarding who is served by the project, what resources, and how will this investment be maintained over time? References to whether or not you've worked with committees and any other information. It's a fairly straightforward process.  But if you're going through your application process, you'll want to take a look at this. I'm going to go back for a moment. And this is for committee members as well as for potential applicants. I want to display the general calendar that we have this year. So hold on a moment, please. This is in your packet, but it's also listed here. This is a general timetable if everyone can see it for this fiscal year 25 cycle. Fiscal year 25 is indicative that the funds become available in July 1st of 2024. And that fiscal year ends in June of fiscal year of 2025. So it's kind of an oddity. Fiscal year 25 is actually the current cycle and funds become available next July. So we've had our announcements on the websites. We've opened the application cycle is live right now. We're having a general first meeting as we go. And the deadline for any applications, anyone who's considering applying for CPA funds is Saturday, September 30th. So that is the date to write down to make sure that you've already got everything ready to submit your application. Once the applications are received, they go to town staff. Town staff will look over the applications for any issues and communicate with applicants as necessary. And then on October 13th, these applications will be distributed to our committee. We do this every year. The committee then will consider the applications, review them and come up with questions for the applicants, whatever they might be. There's usually a fair number of questions and the staff will organize these and then provide them to the applicants on Friday, October 27th, give or take a day. The applicants then have a week to respond to those questions. Those responses are provided to our committee. And then we start to hear presentations from the applicants. That is to say applicants will receive communications from town staff in terms of scheduling. And we have a tentative schedule. We don't know how many applications we're going to get. But if you're applying for funds, your presentation is going to be somewhere either November 9th, November 16th, or November 30th, depending upon what category it's in and how many we get. Separately, we have a December 7th meeting, which is an annual public hearing where the public has an opportunity to comment on any of these public applications. And the committee, after the public hearing, a portion of that meeting will begin to discuss and vote on recommendations. We typically take some time. Last year, I believe it was three separate meetings, years before it was two. Well, we have a deliberative process and it will commence in this time period. Essentially, and then after we make our recommendations, we send them to the finance committee and then they go to the town council. It is the town council who has the authority to approve the funds. It is not the CPA committee. We make recommendations to the town council. The town council hears from the finance committee and the town council can award funds that the CPA has recommended. They cannot award funds that the CPA has not recommended. And then we'll have a tentative meeting in the spring to review how the year went. That's the general calendar. It is in the meeting packet, so I recommend that anyone in attendance who has interest access that. Let's get back briefly to some key applicant information. I'm going to attempt to open the slideshow again and hopefully I can get it so that it will not advance as I'm speaking. There are a couple slides in there that will be a benefit for the audience. Right here. This time frame mirrors the calendar, but the portion here that I want the potential applicants to see are the key steps. The first thing you want to do, well you'll have to have an idea of what you want to apply for, but you want to review the CPA plan. The CPA plan again is available on the website. It has everything that you need. You want to review the eligibility criteria. You want to look at the evaluation criteria. It's all in there. You can look at some previous year's proposals. You can also review the application form. What's important here is that you want to discuss your project with the relevant support committees. That information is available on the website. Here they are again. It's on the amherstmass.gov CPA board website with the various contact information. Once you submit your application form, it goes to the town. You're going to be receiving questions from the committee. The applicant presentations, the dates will be sometime between November 9th, I believe it is, and December 7th. And then the CPA committee themselves will deliberate and come to decisions. The funds become available after after July 1st. Assuming that they've been approved, there's typically a process in this where the applicant will need to enter into a contract agreement with the town of Amherst. There may be some steps related to approval process, but this is the general time frame for the committee. Forgive me for this slide to advancing. You can download these slides in the packet on the town website. I recommend that you do. One other thing that I want to show the audience is kind of how we initiate our review process. I'm displaying here a form that we have used each of the last two years. When our committee starts to talk about projects, we look at what the projects are, how much they're asking for, and each committee member in their own thought process and deliberation comes up with a general straw poll number of what they think about a given project. This enables us to prioritize which projects are apt to have more discussion required than others. If there's unanimity of agreement, it's an easier process. You can look on the CPA website in recordings. Our last set of deliberations I believe were December 8th, 15th, and 20 seconds. So you can see the process that we use, but this is a form that we kind of go through as we're talking about them. So we'll just back out of that. So what I want to call the attention to of the applicants, again, what's most important, at least in my opinion, is that you come to the website. If you have an idea, you look over, I'm going to go back from CPA funds. This is showing previous proposals. You want to look over the CPA plan. That's really, once you have an idea, that's the first thing you want to do. And you can find it again on our website here, town of Amherst, amherstmass.gov, boards and committees, go to community preservation act committee here, click on it, scroll down. You'll find it in two places. You'll find the plan right here in the middle. This is very important. And you also will find it when you go to apply for CPA funds, which is what you'll need to do when you're actually officially applying. You'll scroll down and you'll see information right here. How do I apply for CPA funds? These are some changes we made to the website last this past summer. Talks about the window. The CPA strongly recommends that applicants read the plan and also contact and consult with the possible relevant town boards associated with their project. Usually that's something you want to start doing in the spring, as far in advance as you can. That's not always possible, but here are the liaisons. Here is the town staff, but here are the committees that are relevant associated with it. This page also describes the evaluation process, submission process. We've had applications come in late in the cycle that have been well thought out and have received funds. It's not mandatory that you have gone through the full processes of review, but it's highly recommended. And again, here's the application form. Excuse me a minute. So that's kind of a general idea of information that's important for applicants. Read the CPA plan, talk to the committees, look at the town website, look at previous proposals, and most importantly, consider your project and talk to the relevant town staff that might be related to it. I'm going to look at the audience. We'd like to invite comments or questions from attendees if there are any. So stay with me here while I can see this on the screen. Polly, are you able to see all the audience I'm not seeing at present? There are no hands up in the audience. There are four attendees. So I'd like to ask the attendees again, if any of you have any questions about what we've just gone over here, please raise your hands. I'll wait a minute or two. We're just seeking to give the opportunity, if needed, for any potential applicants to ask questions. Okay, so no hands, then I guess we're doing okay. I'm going to stop sharing my screen for a moment. We're back on yours, Harley. Hopefully that's easier for the panelists and the audience to see, less things here. Okay, so the next item on our agenda is to review financials. And Polly's put together some information if you're ready, Polly. You're not here, I think you're on mute. Yeah, but just bear with me one second. Unfortunately, my screen is very tiny, and I've got to figure out how to make it bigger here. Again, I apologize, it might be a little small, but okay, so here is, we start with the FY 24 beginning balance at the beginning of the year. We're estimating what we're going to take in for CPA tax for the year. We're estimating a 25% match from the state, that is their current guidelines. And then we're taking out what we've already voted and approved for FY 24 projects. Our FY 24, currently we have a budgeted reserve. We do have some money set aside if any more projects come in for FY 24 that we can use. So our estimated end of year balance at the end of this fiscal year, and I do apologize, that should say 630.24, not 23, would be about $686,000. And then in order to get to the amount of money that we expect or are estimating to have available next year, we're going to do the same type of thing. We're going to add our estimated tax or the CPA that's added to everybody's tax bill. Again, a 25% match from the state. So what we would have available to appropriate is just over $2 million. But then we have to take out what we have already committed to through debt service. Come on. What we've already committed in prior years as debt payments on previous projects that we borrowed of about $520,000 is what we have estimated right now. And that will leave us with a balance of $1.5 million is our estimate available for new projects. And just the little note there on the side in the 10% minimum is that we are required to put 10% into each of the categories. So the minimum in each category based on $1.375 million of new revenues would be $137,500. So in open space and recreation, which are combined community housing and historic preservation, we have to commit at least $137.5,000 to each one of those categories per the CPA guidelines. We haven't really had much of a problem doing that lately. Debt alone usually satisfies that minimum, but that is a requirement through the CPA as well. So right now until we get our actual money from the CPA match for FY, it's FY23, but it will come in in FY24. We're estimating about $1.5 million available for new projects. So again, this is the FY24 estimates and then our FY25 estimates on what we'll have available. And then the previously approved and bonded projects, we're estimating right now $520,000 of the debt payment will have to come off of that available balance before we can approve any new proposals. Anybody have any questions on that calculation? I see Matt has his hand up. I cannot see that anymore, so you go right ahead. So financial year 24, so the money is being distributed for those already, right? That's the ones we voted for. Right. So why is the assessed local tax an estimate? Isn't that the tax we collected last year? No, that's the taxes that we'll be collecting this year. So we distribute the money before we receive the tax? We do. It is based on estimated receipts. Oh, I didn't realize that's how it worked. Yes, so we estimate those very conservatively. So that's why we often end up with, you know, a larger beginning number because we estimate conservatively. I mean in some years we've gotten, you know, maybe 400 plus thousand dollars from a state match, but the state tells us every year basically what they think the percentage will be and we keep it low. But yes, it is based on estimated receipts. And then I guess the other question was, so the year-end balance is, I guess, higher than I expected. Is that because we receive more money or we distributed less? We would have received more money in 23. Okay, that's all. And likely by the time we get to actually voting the proposals, this number will become an actual number. So there will likely in the past we have gotten more than this estimate. So this number will likely go up a bit once we actually receive our FY, it's our FY 23 match that we receive in fiscal year 24. Okay.  Yes, just a quick request. Holly, can you send that chart that we're looking at on the screen separately to us? It would have been included in your packet. Everybody should have gotten an email with the packet and it was the calendar was in there, the chart was in there, the agenda was in there, it was in the materials that I already sent. Yep. All right, sorry, thank you. That's okay. And for those in the audience, the packet materials can be located from the airmers, mass.gov, boards and committees, community preservation at committee on the right-hand side. You'll see a listing along with agendas, there's meeting recordings, and there's meeting packets, I believe it's called. You click on it, there are folders listed, click on 2023, and you'll see 914, that is to say September, this current meeting, September 14th. So any of the materials that are being discussed in this meeting are available to you there for your download and consideration. There was, I assume most of the committee members are aware, I forgot to mention this though, Sean Mangano has departed as an employee of the town, he was our liaison in the town finance director. So our committee did interact with Holly and Sean last last spring. Sonja had departed in January. So Holly is the full liaison, you're doing triple duty, Holly. You're doing what Sonja did and what you used to do and what Sean used to do. So I'm very grateful that Holly is here to assist. I guess I have a general question Holly related to just finances. Once a year we ask the applicants who have already been awarded funds to provide updates to us. Are we apt to get just a delineation maybe later in November or so of how those are going? Absolutely. I don't think that we've sent out that communication yet but I can certainly work on getting that out. It is, I'll make myself a note here. Yes, we do typically once a year ask for an update. For applicants it's in the application process. It's indicated that they'll be, the request will come in. But this 1.5 million, that's that seems to be a higher number than I had anticipated. I hope that it stays true to that amount. That's pretty large amount of funds. Do any other members have questions related to the financial update? Okay thank you Holly. That's quite helpful and the only other thing I'd point out here is I see the budgeted reserve of 164.463. That's the fiscal year 24 budgeted reserve. That's the amount we moved last May 11th and that retains currently as a fiscal year 24 budgeted reserve that can be spent in fiscal year 24 which is from now through can be awarded between now and June 30th of next year. But we also can vote that in should we wish into fiscal year 25 months. Right if we don't read, if we don't use it prior to June 30th it will it will go back into the bucket so to speak and that would increase what we have available for FY 25 if it is unused. So we could potentially have another hundred and sixty four thousand dollars if we chose not to use it in this current fiscal year. That's correct. But we can't use any of the six hundred and eighty six thousand other than the 164. That's correct. Okay so even though that's that's extra money it is all going to get transferred into 25. Right. So if you if you have not allocated it or reserved it it has to stay in the fund balance so that the six hundred and eighty six that we're suspecting will end the year with is not available only the hundred and sixty four is currently available to you to be used in FY 24. Okay thanks. Any other questions from committee members regarding financial update or any other comments related to it not seeing any hands or images. Okay great thank you so much Holly. The next item on the agenda I added a north Zion church update as a refresher for those oh Michelle excuse me I see your hand is up. Hi Sam yeah I just wanted to say I have to leave at seven so if there's any votes that I need to take part in I didn't know if we could move them forward but I didn't want to mess up any quorums by having to leave a little early. We have a quorum even if you have to depart because we have six members here and our quorum quantity is five. Thank you so much for bringing that to my attention now because that's potentially significant if there are only five of us here. I don't what right now what we're about to do is to discuss new information that's been provided to us in relation to the north church and we'll see how that discussion proceeds. Yep because I didn't hear it so please proceed. So as an update the north church was a proposal from last fall that most of the members here reviewed and discussed and then we when the time came for voting on various projects the project was tabled without decision based on a vote of the committee and requests for additional information from the historical commission for general planning and from the various members the historical commission did reach out to town staff who had worked in support of the of the north church as a committee we didn't receive additional estimates because they've been doing their own work but I did reach out given that we had a project that was tabled I reached out to the committee a couple of times this summer and to the north church excuse me a couple of times this summer and invited the north church to present to us in person or to provide any documents that they wish to provide on any planning updates or new information that they might have in in response to my invitation so that our committee could be aware of you know what's been transpired with that we received the documents that are in our packet sort of the response to the invitation was to provide the written information related to the project so I'd like to just open up the general discussion related to the update in the committee of what's been received I read it as a there's a new estimate it's an estimate related to a roof with a set of plans and supporting documents Matt I see your hand is up yeah I see some people in the attendees that are probably relevant I don't know if they were going to speak before we discuss it or not like thank you and I don't know if Matthew is Matthew Concoran because it doesn't have his last name but that's probably who it is they didn't indicate that they wanted to present but we've made them aware that they're welcome to raise their hand and speak and we could certainly do so okay good because I have I I looked at the we can ask questions if we wish yeah I guess I would have questions I don't know if anyone else has questions um we certainly can ask questions and invite someone in from the audience to respond to questions if if they uh who would you like to ask a question to Matt um well are we just are we just going to assume that everyone's read the document and just dive into questions is that is that what we're doing here uh we're we're having an update where we've informed the committee of the materials that have been provided to us related to the table project and I thought it made sense for our committee to be able to review and discuss any questions and the applicants are in attendance for questions if we have some okay should I just start sure you can start talking about the update or you can uh yeah yeah so I'm just talking about the the north church info pdf which looks like an email from Matt Concoran about the scope of work and um so I guess I'm the there seems to be two parts but I only see sort of a clear description of the the roofing part um and then there must be some other carpentry part that hasn't been fully described like as there's beams the labor on three workers 54 thousand dollars um so I'm just trying to understand like what is the what is everything that's going on here sure um I haven't spoken to the applicants uh regarding specifics related to the proposal we can seek to ask questions uh I see seek young and Matt in the audience would you be interested in responding to the questions uh Matt or seek young we can bring you in do you want to bring them both yeah let's let's bring them in at least so we can hear them I don't know if they're actually listening yes we were yeah okay so Matt what was it you asked well we do like a description I'm sorry I mean uh Matt Cain what was it that you asked um so that there seems to be two parts there's there's a quote from um shumway services which looks like a quote for taking the roof materials off and replacing it with cdx and asphalt shingles and there are other items so what are the other items to do with the the carpentry and the labor on three workers welcome Matt uh Matthew and seek young hi there are four curling beads that are needed to be replaced um the bearing for the roof is a little unusual um and the this is described in the architects work from last spring uh what's going to have to happen is uh we're going to have to take the faces and the soffits off to church replace four of these purlin beams and then put everything back together um the bearing for the bottoms of the rafters is not over the wall plate it's actually about 16 inches out from the wall and you know so they had an architect that did drew plans of this and descriptions of it uh I I have a very clear idea of what it is okay good there are there are four beams that actually have to come out and get replaced and then the fascia boards and soffits have to be put back on and then the gutters have to be put back on yeah so does this cover everything that is sort of required with the roof and also the sort of rotting beams and also the rotting trim work and so on yes it should cover everything um at the top it doesn't actually cover repainting the walls of the church right take care of the fascia and soffit and the beams and the gutters um put a new roof on uh and from the freeze board out everything should be fine okay and there I do remember there was some other some other issues other than just painting there was some issues at the base of one of the um pillars I think at the front and maybe um in some of the uh light wells for the basement I can't remember exactly there was other things that were urgent or but clearly the main thing that was urgent was the roof and the roof structure yeah no the basis of the church is very sound okay good good uh I don't see anything that needs correction okay it's just what it looks to me like is the church was framed by a covered bridge builder not a house builder so the the frame of the roof structure is a little bit different uh with more of an overhang uh and the ice damming has caused these bearing purlin beams to rot that that are a little bit out from the wall of the building um we know how to fix them you know it's just getting adequate scaffolding up there to do it okay good technically I don't think it's a very difficult job well it's just getting the scaffolding up there getting the beams taking apart putting it back together yep another question I have is um so it's a pity that Robin isn't here representing the historical commission I don't know Dave Zymek has any opinion but um is is this in other historical um projects that we've considered it's been a consideration as to whether the proposal is I don't know in line with historical preservation standards was that a question for me you I guess you could answer it if you if you can answer it well I guess a the main issue from my perspective is the roofing material and whether it's appropriate for the historical preservation uh we've priced slate which is outrageously expensive we've priced metal roofs um vinyl slate um pine shingles uh and this is really the only cost effective roof we can get on to stay within a budget um historically I think from 1826 to about 1900 the church had pine various pine shingles roofs and then from about 1900 to 1944 it had a couple of past fault roofs similar to what we're proposing and then in 1944 the current slate roof was put on which is now in need of repair so what we're proposing is to go back to what they had in 1943 um we just the slate is just so prohibitively expensive we can't get the job done uh with slate um so historically we're going back to 1943 Dave Zomac I see your hand is up thanks Sam and and thanks Matt for the question um so I don't have a definitive answer on the the historical commission review piece but I I do think um the church would need to consult with with um Nate Malloy and the historical commission on whether there would be a formal uh approval needed to do some of this work or not obviously it's to protect the structural integrity of this historic uh structure but whether it would you know whether it would be you know categorized as any kind of demo or not but we could easily answer that question for or seek young and and and Matt as you move through through this process the other thing I just wanted to remind folks is that normally uh particularly with uh with um if if the committee and recommended this to the council there would be a requirement um in all likelihood of a historic preservation restriction on the building or you know part of the the building and parcel so that's something I don't know if that came up in your discussions Matt Corcoran with uh with seek young and and the the leaders of the church um we have a tie I just assumed that that would go with the funding um I actually discussed it but uh I thought it was part of the process okay good so I think those are the two two uh items that I wanted to to just touch on and we could work with you know we've met with Matthew and seek young and the leadership of the church and I think we could continue to kind of um you know work on those two pieces with you okay we should set up meeting with Nei and somebody from CPA well I would defer to the committee on that seek young and you know it's it's in their hands whether they decide to to recommend your or not so we'll wait on their their review all right I I'm not seeing Tim Neil did we lose Tim Holly it looks like we did let me just check quickly let me give him a quick break um he's not in the participants or anything I was just looking to see if he came back into oh there he is he came back into the attendees uh so hang on let me bring him back yeah I stepped away Sam was there a minute ago I stepped away was there any discussion of timing um on this how urgent this is I mean I know we were talking about this in 22 here we are in the fall of 23 um can any of this work actually get done before the snow flies or is this really a 20 calendar year 24 project at this point I think we are we are hoping get a reserve fund distributed this year because when last time we attend the committee meeting with the Chris Folly who happened to design architectural and roofing design he mentioned to you committee that urgent work has to be need to be done and parts of the roof before the winter come so now that almost year has passed and there's a winter is approaching so we like to get a work done as soon as possible and soon it's finally so available to our church well I don't think um um for a couple of reasons I don't think this job can take place till next April or May um the first reason is these beams have to be ordered and they have to be dried out they're going to be really heavy and we've got to get them up to stories to get them in place so we need to get 100 or 150 pounds of water out of them and the second issue is we can't get the painting we need to start in the spring because you you set up the scaffolding on one side you go through the various processes you finish the roof you do the finished paint and you take it down you repeat it on the next side but if we can't paint is we're only six or eight weeks away from not being able to paint and then we've got to leave the staging up all winter uh so I think that for two reasons it's really a project that needs to start as soon as the weather breaks first thing in the spring um you know April or early May and then we have we're able to be able to do a nice clean complete job before the end of the summer uh Tim my apologies for leaving the meeting I don't know what happened glad you're back okay but I'm back uh I guess that's a key question for me is whether this applicant is requesting funds from the reserves for a fiscal 24 or whether this is a fiscal 25 request that would go into the hopper and compete against all the other fiscal 25 requests um and what I'm hearing is if this project can't really start realistically until the spring I think it should be a fiscal 25 project and um apply along with everybody else so I just don't know where the paperwork is on that but I just think that's my opinion but I just didn't know where we were in terms of the cycle thank you Tim uh the reason I we waited for some time patiently to receive updates after the project had been handled it was my opinion that we needed to if we were to have any discussion related to this project it needed to occur before any new applications arrive because we may be having new historic preservation projects coming up and so from a general time period of our own discussion Tim that was my thought process in following up what we had requested which was an update and recognizing that we're going to be receiving new applications soon everyone on the committee can have their own opinions uh I my thought not as chair and the meeting but as a member is that it seems to me that if fiscal year 25 if spring May of 2024 that's only two months away from July 1st of 2024 which would be the commencement of funds availability for fiscal year 25 which is the new cycle from a timing component Tim I think there's uh I hear your what you're saying yes Matt yeah I guess uh that's a good question and I'd like to hear from Matthew about whether starting this at the start of July 24 would make sense I mean the problem with 20 getting starting in April of 24 is several fold one is we have to go through a separate CPA approval process with the town council and us in order to allocate the funds before July 1st 24 and secondly we only have 163,000 available and the bill is 179 so you would have to figure out how to plug that gap or defer some of the cost or something until July 1st 24 so Matthew what do you have a comment on that? um well I have a couple of comments um I think the difference between what the the town had available in 179 the church feels they can raise through donations so they can contribute and cover the difference in the project honestly it I mean I wouldn't want to get forced into a situation we're just putting the staging up to start the job at a certain time and then just pay rent by the month to have it sit there but that would be the situation we're getting pushed into where okay we'll put the scaffolding up and say we've started the job but we're not really actually doing anything until the weather allows us and then we're just paying rental by the month on the staging I guess my question is if you started it in July 24 would that make sense or does that not make sense um I think that's starting a little late in the year for us if it was anything like this somewhere we just had the first half of the summer was nice pay drying weather and the second half was horrible I would construction wise if I see a window and I will it's good weather I don't want to have to sit around away I want to get it done you know and to try and squeeze this stuff into a budgetary process of dates okay makes it a lot more difficult okay and then starting in spring of 25 what would be the implication of that ah well that would be a normal cycle most building projects get timed or at least in my history we time projects that start in the spring and um usually we can have them wrapped up before the end of the summer and uh we don't run into um you know cold weather and trying to get paint done and in some of the difficult is it is it okay to wait that long for this project yes um right now the actual leaking is occurring outside of the building because of the way this is framed it looks horrible and there is leaking but it's leaking outside of the footprint of the building okay it's not actually leaking in the building and but it looks terrible from the ground what I what I'm hearing is that the urgency is uh not as high as we thought it might have been last December I think that's true I think everybody who's looking at this from the ground it's it's very difficult to get up into the attic of the church and see some of this stuff because there isn't a floor up there it's you know crawling around on beams on your belly like you're in a two-story tobacco bar and if you get off at that beam you're going right through the roof to the floor I mean to the ceiling to the floor so there's it's very difficult to wiggle in there and see what's actually happening but my impression is the leaking is actually occurring outside of the wall of the building not inside the building but it looks really bad when you stand at the ground and take a picture at it and look at it from the ground up and it's had numerous repairs over the years you can see where people have put in a piece of sheet metal here there or block here there to try and keep it going and I was never involved in it I remember probably 50 years ago they hired me to cut out a little elliptical window for but there have been many carpenters in North Amherst have worked on the building over the years trying to keep it together now the estimate the documents that you provided were estimations and there was references to potential additional expenses related to plywood potentially from the roofing organizations yeah from the show line yeah what we did do is we multiply his estimate times one point five percent expecting to see about five percent inflation between now and next spring so hopefully that would be enough to cover but we do have members of the church that are contributing and we'll carry a share of this project it's not the church is not asking the town to pay 100 percent of this so I think we're good I mean you never know until you do it but I think we're okay does the committee have any additional questions for Matt or Sikyung at this moment can I make a comment in addition to Matt Cochran I heard that budget have to be used by June of 2024 and Matt Cochran mentioned we have to order beams before him he gave a time to dry so if they're committing in April we could order the beams now and give a time to dry it out if contractor the roofing contractor available in a spring then we could use the fund by June of 2024 and that's my thought thank you Sikyung early start we could probably be finished by the end of June yes so I think that's the but when we were the funds don't have to be used straight away because work will be starting and then funds will be accumulated then you know will be construction and the roofing that work is I don't think it will take more than two months right hopefully hopefully it will last he never took it apart he never took it apart yeah the biggest issue that I'm concerned about is ordering the beams now getting inside the back of my store and getting them sticked and putting on a fan on them throughout the winter I'd like to pull 100 or 150 pounds of water off of these beams before we try and handle up in the air two stories up and if I can get them soon I can get them dried out for an early start in the spring but if we order them in March and we try and put it up in April these things are really heavy they really need time to dry out it could conceivably be the following spring Tim I see that your hand is up yes I would suggest we move on my personal opinion is that I think this applicant needs to fill out the appropriate paperwork so we have all the information for a fiscal 25 application and we when we have our discussions we can always discuss with and move it up for fiscal 24 but I just don't see any more value on us debating that right now I for one have some things that I've got to do but that would be my suggestion does anyone have any other questions for the members that we the participants that we brought in so Matthew and Sikyong thank you for coming into the panel and if Holly if you can place them back as attendees thank you for having us thank you yes so yeah I I guess um based on that discussion we still have one person in here let's see Sikyong's still here are you able to do the moving Holly yep I am trying right now it just doesn't seem to be working but I think that does not seem to be okay going okay did we just lose somebody again okay there we go so um yeah I think as a committee are the reason I wanted to bring the add this to our agenda is that we had asked for updates a lot of time went by we sent I sent an invitation and town staff had communicated with them to invite them to present any information they have whether it be in writing or in person so I wanted the committee to be informed of the current latest status which we currently have our status as a committee is we can do a few things we can do nothing it's a table project and we don't have to do anything with it we can seek to decline uh the proposal and invite the application the applicants to apply again in fiscal year 25 we can do nothing and ask them to apply again fiscal year 25 the concern exists that we're about to have a new set of applications coming in starting after September 30th my what I'm hearing from today which is somewhat new is that the water is the sense of urgency is not as high as it was last spring that is to say the water is leaking on the outside and there's a lead time this would not get done between now and the December anyway I share Tim's thoughts but it seems to make sense to seek an application in fiscal year 25 that's one opinion I'm curious what the other panelists who are here think who have listened to the full process proposal from from the applicant Matt I see that your hand is up yeah so I just want to say I really appreciate Sikun's work on this and Matthew Cochran's work on this and I think we're in a much better much clearer understanding of what needs to be done than we were in November which is great and I agree with Tim and Sam the important new piece of information that the water is leaking outside the building and that this doesn't necessarily need to be done as soon as possible makes me agree with Sam and Tim that this should probably be financial year 25 proposal which would mean basically for Sikun to reuse much of her proposal and put in this new information we've got today and then when it comes to November and we can discuss it and approve it and hopefully that will all work out fine rather because it seems not necessary to go through a whole separate process just for this one project if it's not super urgent thank you Matt Paulie I see that your hand is up yes so forgive me I was not as involved in the process last year what was so the dollar amount that was set aside in the budgeted reserve is that just what was available and unspent or was that a dollar amount that they were thinking was going to cover this project the committee set aside through our processes 164,300 or 500 into budgeted reserve there had been last year a larger request for like 650,000 it then came back as a smaller request with the HPA associates for 158,000 to do a slate roof four feet up and fix the socket and we included within that 5,000 potential for HPA restrictions so we had set aside on the chance on the possibility that we might receive information that would wish for us to proceed further to have those funds available and give us flexibility we extended that flexibility in May of this past year when we met to allocate and place 164,300 into budgeted reserve for fiscal year 24 so it's been since December nine months, 10 months in the information that has changed what we have received is what we're receiving today the one other thought that enters my mind is that from a clarity standpoint there's still not certain clarity from my standpoint related to what the request would be I see the fine work that's been done by the contractor who is has been working with the church it seems to be a well thought out but the applicant had previously requested 158,000 to do the first four feet in slate this is a proposed this estimate which is new information for us is one that is shingles architectural and we don't know whether or not they would align the historical commission Robin did communicate that there are sometimes I don't know if that's the right word but non-slate roofs that look like slates that may or may not align whether they be architectural shingles or asphalt shingles but I don't I don't believe I have enough information to make any determination on this in terms of proceeding forward it seems to me it makes sense to invite the applicant to provide a more concise application for fiscal year 25 I'm curious what the other committee members think I've heard you before Tim and Matt I just thought we don't have to do anything we can let it sit and not bring it up again or we could say provide closure by saying well we think it makes sense for an entirely new application to be provided and I realize it's unusual circumstance that we're discussing this at this point in time but it needed to be discussed now rather than two weeks from now yes Dave I saw David Zomax end up is that no longer up I just wanted to jump in same as seems you know from listening to the to the various comments I too wanted to follow Matt and kind of acknowledge the work that Matthew Corcoran and Seek Young and the leadership there have done I think they've come a long way but it does seem you know kind of logical to have them submit at the deadline by the end of September from a staff standpoint reviewing this potential historical commission review going through the entire process for this proposal and taking this through you and then all the way through the town council is you know that that is a significant process to get this through whereas bringing it through the the annual process just seems like the right thing to do given also that Matt Corcoran you know indicated that taking a little more time doing this right having the time to dry out the various beams and then and then stage the project you know perhaps you know starting in the summer of if it was funded you know in the summer of 24 and then you know there really isn't a timeline they could take part of 25 if this project were funded to finish so I'm just hearing support for that can you clarify that again Dave I'm not sure I understood what you meant when you said the annual process meaning they come with other they have all the materials they need really they could they could pull out the narrative that they submitted before with some adjustments they have new cost estimates so it's not a real heavy lift to pull this together by the end of September and make your deadline in my for an application for fiscal year 25 the next annual process yes David Williams can you hear us I hear you I'm interested in your thoughts well listening to the comments and the request and everything this particular project is this is basically the second year that we have gone through this process one of the things well some phases of the process one of the things that we talked about last year and I think most of you are familiar with this the conversation was about water leakage in the building and what have you and I think all of us know that if we are experiencing a problem with water you need to stop the water if you're going to try and save the building now you we have there were suggestions that the church should come back and go through the cycle again for the proposals for 2025 I think I'm correct in saying that so if that's what we're suggesting we're looking at if we're going to fund this you're looking at a project that probably would not start before 2026 or July of 2020 or five five 24 at the earliest 25 at the latest so if it's we feel that this project is a legitimate or project then I think we need to try and move it forward did you hear David what they indicated about the water leakage that it wasn't an issue from their perspective that the water leakage is outside of the building not inside well I kept hearing that outside of the building but yes well that's a little different from what we said last year correct correct it's new information yes Tim I would like to formally make a motion that we move this project or request the applicant that we as a committee abandoned any further discussion for fiscal for the funds in fiscal 24 and we have the applicant reapply for fiscal 25 so might that be your rephrase to indicate that we you are making a motion that we not award any funds for fiscal year 24 at this time is that what you were saying I do I am not I am not comfortable with awarding funds from the reserves in fiscal 24 for this applicant I would like to propose that the applicant reapply in a fiscal 25 application which David felt and I agree with them that they could just piece that together very careful very easily and they would compete with other requests in this I understand what you're communicating and I'm wondering what the phraseology of the motion might be okay I move that the committee not expend fiscal 24 funds and I move that and I further move that the applicant reapply in the fiscal 25 cycle I'd like to make a discussion a comment if I may okay I mean I don't know if that's I think somebody needs to properly but might we might we move to not award any funds for the fiscal year 24 proposal and and strongly invite that the applicant apply again in fiscal year 25 pollinate your thoughts I've said somebody please second that motion so you can have the discussion which motion Tim's motion is there a second to the motion I'll second it I see a second from Bob Saul is there a discussion um yeah I'm happy to recommend that the North Church submit in a 2025 I don't think we need to do anything about the budgeted reserve because we just don't have to do anything it'll automatically disappear if we do something if that's if we do something don't do anything with it between now and the next year but I don't I don't think I would vote to pass a motion to cancel the budgeted reserve but I would vote to pass a motion to recommend the North Church to apply for fiscal year 25 do do you the motion was that's what I was getting at earlier Matt and bear with me both of you do we wish to for lack of a better term turn down the fiscal year 24 application irrespective of fiscal year 24 funding our committee retains the fiscal year 24 budget items do we wish to decline the application that was presented in fiscal year 24 and recommend application strongly for fiscal year 25 which I believe is what Tim was referring to or do we simply want to table keep it tabled do nothing with it which may or may not come back yes Tim well I'm not quite sure let me see if I can rephrase again my intent is this project was tabled last year for the use of the potential use of the 24 reserves and enable for that enable for that to happen we as a committee would have to discuss that project this year and go through the process all the way up to the town council and have them make the approval but it could only be to use the fiscal 24 funding I do not feel that is what we should do I feel we should keep the reserves but not but able or deny the tabling whatever you want to call it detable it and have the applicant reapply in the fiscal 25 cycle so I'm not quite sure what wording to use but I don't want to have any further discussion about fiscal 24 dollars for this project I understand what you're saying Tim it sounds like the the motion would be to to award no funds to reject the proposal from to reject the fiscal year 24 proposal without awarding funds and to recommend that they strongly recommend that they apply again in fiscal year 25 that's wording is fine with me that's my intent yes would you like to make that to a correction on the motion or oh absolutely sure you want to say it or do we need to I'm not cognizant okay I move that we reject the this project for fiscal 24 funding and and highly recommend that the applicant therefore they wish to proceed with their project reapply for fiscal 25 is there a second for this rephrasing well second again discussion any comments yeah I just don't understand what what's the purpose of rejecting it I think we could just say recommend reapply like who knows what's got who knows what's going to happen I don't know what's going to happen next month but okay I'm happy not to talk about this ever again but I don't think I need to shut the door so instead of rejecting the project just not award any funds at this time and ask that they realize yeah Dave Zomek yeah again I was going to kind of agree with Matt on the rejection I I don't think you really need to formally reject that you could simply vote to take no action or that's fine take no action and encourage them to reapply during the normal process which is what I'm doing right now and and submit a new FY 25 application that actually also implies kind of a little bit of negative on the proposal I don't think there's any negativity toward the proposal it's simply you you would like to see a new proposal a fresh proposal in the new fiscal year process thanks okay that makes sense I understand what Tim is saying I understand what Matt is saying procedurally do we if we're going to seek a third motion do we need to do anything with the existing ones that are out there we need to amend them I believe so I you'll will either have to amend it or you'll have to vote on it and change the motion I'll move to amend the current motion to read that we will committee will take no action no further action on the or no action on the existing North Zion Church fiscal year 24 2024 proposal and strongly recommend and invite them to apply again in fiscal year 25 with a a more focused proposal I second that we have a motion and we have a second discussion holy I see that your hand is up nope sorry I didn't mean that discussion Tim thoughts that's fine I frankly I didn't know what exact wording we wanted to use but I think that's the intent now just let me be clear we still have 163,000 in reserve so per chance that architect or builder was wrong and come spring the thing is leaking inside we can because we're tabling it we can still discuss right and if we don't spend another project comes up they might we have the reserve and ability to have that discussion correct we're not touching the current reserve which is available for spending between now and June of right to the end of June of 2024 we could use it in the current pending applications cycles or for something different but prior to the end of June we will have to either roll it into fiscal year 25 and really we should do that earlier in the year so it doesn't disrupt the time so I think the reworded motion is fine Matt any other any other discussion okay we have a I can't see you David Williams I don't know if you're ready that's all right go ahead I hear you I'll let you know very good I'm just checking in so we have a motion and we have a second and the motion again is to take no action on the existing North Zion Church fiscal year 2024 proposal and strongly recommend and invite that the applicant reapply with a focused proposal for fiscal year 2025 I'd like to proceed to a vote if there's no other comments Tim I Matt I David Williams I Bob I I'll vote I as well so the vote is five to nothing and we will communicate accordingly to the church I will agree with David Zomac's comments and I believe Matt you may have said this as well of the fine progress and work that has been made by the church in terms of considering options and there's certainly some new information from what existed last December so that's that's the last item on our agenda I hope that the committee can thank them for their thoughts on this I again like to welcome our new member Bob I don't know when we will meet again we will be receiving quite a number of applications by October 13th they will go through the town first who will look them over and we'll be needing to come up with questions we'll be awaiting a few new members hopefully we're lacking a member from the planning board currently and we're lacking a an at-large member I believe they both will be here at that point so I don't have any other agenda items that I did not foresee I'd like to open the floor up to any comments any of the members wish to make before I adjourn the meeting I don't see any comments or members I'd like to thank everyone for attending and participating welcome again Bob it's glad to see you and glad that you're here and thank you all I will adjourn this meeting at 7 48 p.m. thanks take care good night good night to everyone


So, the General Assembly declared March 21st as World Down Syndrome Day in December of 2011. Now the day spreads awareness and support for those living with this disease, Down Syndrome. This is a very special day. You know, it's interesting if you've been around people, mothers that have kids living with Down Syndrome, you would know that.  It's a lifetime project. It's a lifetime project because these children can't, they technically cannot do anything without, you know, without assistance, you know, so it's a lot, it's a lot. It takes a lot of grace and patience to be able to manage them. So if there's anything that I would like, you know, for the government to start to do really, there are children that have this particular disability and I know that any form of support, you know, would help. So I have a friend, a friend's brother that the child has cerebral palsy. In Nigeria, they used to hide that girl in their room and all of that. But the husband got a job, her brother got a job and they relocated, you know, outside of the country and the kind of reception, the kind of attention, the kind of love, it is because of the same girl that they were hiding in Nigeria, do you understand? The attention, the government, I mean, they changed, they brought in specialised bed, they came to her room, they set up her bed, she has specialised bed, she has nurses that come to take her for, what is it called, to go for swimming classes, different kinds of activities. And guess what, the condition has completely improved from when she was in Nigeria. You know, these kind of cases that you think is hopeless and all of that. So these things involve money, because if they tell you how much the government is investing on those children, you will be shocked, you know. But because they pay, you know, some premium on health insurance, it covers up, because if you wanted to pay through your nose, trust me, something you can never afford, you know. So I understand that, you know, some of these children with these kinds of disability, you just need to put them in a different environment, they would improve, they would continue to. So it's just that it's at a slow pace, but they would improve. So instead of just, you know, yeah, go ahead, Issey. Aside from that, Osai Wame, the thing is, we in Nigeria, based on our culture, our beliefs, we tend to disregard and disrespect these children with Down syndrome. We have totally ignored the fact that these children are experiencing this disability based on the fact that it is a genetic disorder and it's not something that they can actually help, you know, and we have done this in a way that we have, we have shown them in such a way that we have disregarded them in the society. That's why child who was taken abroad was giving them attention and giving that environment to bloom. Now, we also come back here in Nigeria, we have done it in such a way that the lifespan or expectancy of these children are quite... It's not only the children, Issey, it's everybody. Yes. But especially for these children. Yeah. We're actually talking about Down syndrome. So for these children, it's actually short in comparison to those, the counterparts who are living abroad. And the counterparts living abroad. Absolutely. And the counterparts living abroad can actually, you see them do a lot of things. Yeah. Exactly. We have, I once saw somebody who was, a few people who were actually famous and their actors, their models, and they actually... Living with Down syndrome. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. But we do not have something like that in Nigeria. We're not even taking care of those who are able and well-feeded, not to talk about those who are not, that are disabled in one way or the other. Absolutely. I completely agree with you, honestly. So we can actually do better. All right. Angie, your story for us. So my story in the news today is the fact that Punkia Kindeli deletes some or all of her politics related posts from Instagram. So, story going out today is that the deputy governorship candidate of the PDP, which is the People's Democratic Party in Lagos, Punkia Kindeli, has, after the just concluded elections, deleted posts on her Instagram page related to politics and PDP. And, you know, this is a public figure who has about 15.7 million followers. And I know that during the election, during the campaign and election season, there was a lot of talks, you know, she actually came out on... Under the party. Under the party to say, you know, her followers were going to back her up for her campaign and all that, and they were going to come out and vote. And I know that it was a little bit... The election turned out a little bit differently for PDP where they were not able to meet up, and I think they came a distant third. And so it's just funny. When I saw it in the news, I was just wondering what could have gone through her mind to come to such conclusions. Is it that she had ended, decided to end her political career in general and going back to the entertainment world, or she was taking a break? But, you know, people do...  Yes, we all delete posts, but when you delete a post... But did you monitor her page through and through? She never really posted a lot, like somebody that was really ready to win an election, if she was leveraging on her social media handle. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I know that at some point she had to take a break from politics, she was promoting the Booker movie, that her Booker Street movie. In the heat of campaign, she was still promoting. So, I mean, she never... She rarely posted enough, as far as I was concerned. If you compare her to other celebrities that, you know, were running for offices, you would see daily posts, different things and all of that. She rarely did post, you know, about the campaign. And for me, it comes surprising, because it's not from a place of the fact that you're not into social media. You know, this is someone who is a social media person. And I believe that the choice of her as a deputy candidate was based on, you know, the supposed assumption that, oh, she had the... Because, you know, the kind of followership that she has was more of the people, like, you know, the Alim Oshawa, the Mushi, you know. Those are the support her projects, right? So, I mean, I believe that that was part of what informed the choice of her even being selected as a deputy candidate, right? So, I mean, for me, it's not a big deal, because I didn't even really see that she was really serious about winning that election. Both candidates in the PDP. The only person that I actually saw that was really ready for the election, was running to win the election, was the Labour Party candidate and the governor himself, the APC candidate. So, they were no brainer for me. So, it wasn't... It didn't come to me as a surprise. I don't know why it's even making news. Moving on. That was quite neat, okay? So, my story today is about some disgruntled Nigerians destroying their international passport on Instagram. I would like for them to play the video. To me, it doesn't make sense, but that's fine. Where's our video? God bless. Nigeria is a state. Nigeria is a nation. Turning evils to go back to where they come from.  Are you all s***? Are you all s***? Nigeria is a state. First of all, when I saw this, the first thing that came to my mind was... I think there are lots of mental people, you know, that are just going around the world in Nigeria. Because you're not even in Nigeria. We are here with no torn passport. So, what are you trying to say? If the authorities should come and arrest you now because you're defacing... I don't even know the word to explain it, but I don't think that is something that is right to do. I don't think an American or a British citizen can do this online. Like, even when they were mad about policies, it's just not right. Why do we have to be different? Why do we have to embarrass ourselves in public? Like, what is this supposed to mean? And I think from the second one, the second person who tore his passport is clearly expired because I could see the punch from the immigration which they do. So, I don't know what point you're trying to make or what kind of attraction that the person is trying to make. Those passports is not even... Don't we have a new... My design international passports... It's... I agree totally with Mary. It really doesn't make sense. Why? Because, first of all, you're outside the country. That's the only reason why you would do it because maybe you have a second passport. So, that's fine. You can decide you're not coming back to Nigeria but you have family here. Some of those passports is not going to be used for travel. They're still very living people. So, we're still going to come here and we're still going to come back to this country. So, does that mean you're ripping apart your passport? Does that mean we're not going to make it down here anymore? This matter, we're going to deal with these diaspora people because I have a lot of bone to pick with them because you talk, you incite. You're not in Nigeria. Literally, I was in a treat space one time and I heard somebody saying, go down the street. Occupy what? Have you not seen what's called protests and all of those things don't work? Occupy what? You're sitting somewhere outside of the country and you're busy commanding people to go and occupy what? I will pick their bone later. Not with today. This is for another day. Isi, please, what's your story? Why not occupy? They should just come over. Teach them what happened in their lifestyles again. Mine is a follow-up story and it's on Tunkarindela deleting the tweets again and her pictures online. Yes, it's making the news because the brother or the colleague in the industry has actually called out to her and asked her why she deleted her pictures. You know, Yula Dochi actually had his thing in politics. I think it was in 2017 and in the process he was campaigning for the gubernatorial election in an unresting at the time. I think he has an idea of what Tunkarindela was going through during this whole political cacophony and she wants a situation whereby she can actually look at it from another perspective. There was something from Tunkarindela earlier, she said that she doesn't regret actually going into politics that she has learnt a lot in the process and it also calls to mind the saying that says never stop learning because life never stops teaching because she has done this and she has learnt a lot. She has been able to understand the political atmosphere and she has made that decision to actually delete her post but here Yula Dochi is actually telling her to keep this car or the experience and not delete it. I would say yes I agree with Yula Dochi everything you go through in life is something that will take you to the next journey. Yes, maybe in another four years she can actually contest for the election and probably she might win if it depends on the party she decides to go for. They caught him. There was a caught. So some ray of, what's it called? This is some ray of good that came out from all this campaign because I remember that the Labour Party kept on happening, increment of civil servants salary, increment of civil servants salary will increase civil servants salary, so too. So our Gov. Babaji Deseng Wolu has increased civil servants salary by 20% and now according to the head of service Hakim Murio-Kawala the increment took effect January 2023 so it means that all the areas from January up until March will be paid in the month of March. I'm excited for this news because again, in all the fights there were some great ideas that came out from different political parties. So it would be nice, I always say that no matter how the fight is going during campaign, when the part of governance comes it would be nice that you pick some of these great ideas that came out from manifestos or other parties and all of that and implement. So this is a good thing that I thought to just mention it. So on that note we take a break. When we come back from the break let's discuss the aftermath of the gubernatorial elections and all the tribal bigotry and all of that that went on and we want to find out how we all can heal from it and just move on. Stay with us, we'll be right back.


This paper is co-written with Sabina Alkar sitting right over here. I see many many many people in the audience who I know and love Including Eric Thorbeck up front another co-author Tony Shorox and so forth. So it's great to be here So There's two forms of technology for evaluating poverty. You need to mention all where you have a natural single welfare variable Such as income or calories like in our first paper Or where variables can be combined meaningfully to obtain one variable such as expenditure The second form is multi-dimensional where the variables of interest really can't be Thrown together in into one welfare variable So sanitation conditions in your of education don't really work In combining together into one variable Or alternatively you may be able to combine them, but you just don't want to because you want to keep them separate for policy purposes There's been a really strong demand for multi-dimensional tools recently from international organizations such as the UN and the World Bank and and individual countries and the literature has led to a whole lot of measures Unfortunately, most measures are Inapplicable to ordinal variables that is variables that don't have a natural measuring rod They just have a number attached to it to keep track of the place And these are found very often in multi-dimensional poverty measurement or the methods can be quite extreme such as a unit Union identification which says heck you're deprived in anything. You're considered to be poor Or they violate basic axioms such as a head count ratio Violating basic axioms of dimensional monotonicity The new methodology that we put together was called the adjusted head count ratio or MPI That's the measure Was designed for ordinal variables such as floor materials. It has intermediate identification Kind of a dual cut-off approach to types of cut-offs one within each dimension and one across Dimensions to determine who is poor it satisfies key axioms which include Ordinality you can use it with ordinal variables dimensional monotonicity that if a poor person becomes has an additional Deprivation that it will be reflected in the numbers subgroup decomposability across groups of people and dimensional breakdown which looks at the contributions of individual dimensions to overall poverty So with this toolkit you can take a picture that has been constructed by Savina and the folks at Ophie for Africa and look let's say at Chad and take Chad look at each particular area of Chad and See how it stacks up for each dimension So this gets pretty interesting pretty quick. So the technology allows this to happen Mind you next week. There'll be a release of the new multi-dimensional poverty index the global MPI results in New York City There's been a critique that's come along which is that the M zero measure The adjusted head count ratio measure isn't sensitive to distribution among the poor and when I get that critique I always ask well, where's your axiom? I want to know your axiom Some of these axioms are only applicable to cardinal measures. So that gets thrown out other axioms and in particular in fact almost all axioms out there are having a weak inequality so therefore it allows Poverty not to change when inequality changes and hence M zero satisfies So we thought we'd sort this out By putting down a strict axiom that actually did the trick that we could critique ourselves on Isn't that interesting? Then construct measures satisfying this Axiom and other useful properties and then apply it to data to make sure it works in practice That's what this paper is all about. Here's a summary. We will go through a number of the axioms Tell you about the class of measures that we came up with for doing what we said having measures that satisfy This form of dimensional transfer including inequality and multi-dimensional poverty We find that hmm this class of measures There's no single measure that satisfies the dimensional transfer and the dimensional breakdown Which allows you to look per dimension what's happening in poverty and we generalize this to an Impossibility result that there simply are no measures out there that can do both at the same time So we seek a resolution of this impossibility and we do so do so through a suggestion of Gaurav Dutt which Suggested he suggested to use Tony Shorok's approach of Shapley breakdown Which in generally in general it doesn't work for the M gamma measures and other measures But it does for one of them and it does so well for one of them. You'll be amazed We're actually able to solve closed-form solution for the Shapley value one of the most complicated formula that's out there We therefore recommend the use of this class of measures in a way That's been done for years at the World Bank and other places for the p-alpha FGT indices in unidimensional Throughout the paper. There's going to be a discussion of an example in Cameroon so let's go to a review of poverty measurement quickly the two-step approach of send identification and aggregation in Unidimensional approach The identification step is usually from a particular cut-off Called the poverty line The aggregation step is conducted through a poverty measure that aggregates data into an overall level of poverty So you may have seen this class of measures before thanks to Martin Revellian This class the FGT or p-alpha classes It's actually obtained by looking at the means of vectors So the first vector is the deprivation vector which basically classifies who's poor and who isn't One if you're poor one if you're not zero if you're not Take the mean of that vector and that's the head count ratio For the normalized gap or the poverty gap measure Look at the normalized gap vector which says the poverty line minus the income level over the poverty line for each person who's poor Take a mean of that vector and that's the poverty gap Square those entries to get the squared gap vector Take the mean of that vector. You have the FGT squared gap measure Notice that all are based on normalized gap raised to a power alpha our multi-dimensional methodology generalized the FGT class to a multi-dimensional case using a number of things but one of the new aspects was a Dual cut-off identification. It had been floating around in the literature a number of other people had discussed it We put it into effect Using deprivation cut-offs one for each dimension if you're below it You're deprived in that dimension and a poverty cut-off which looked at the percentage of dimensions weighted dimensions In which you're deprived if you're above a cut-off or equal to it. You're considered to be poor The concept of poverty behind this is that a person is poor if multiply deprived enough The approach is consistent with cardinal and ordinal data and with all sorts of identification Approaches including the extreme union approach if you're deprived in any single thing you're poor Or the intersection approach you have to be deprived in everything to be poor and everything in between the intermediate approach We focus on ordinal and intermediate identification an example of the approach will clarify Imagine four dimensions. I'm going to say they're equally weighted one-fourth per Across four people. I've underlined all of the deprivations such that the cut-off is Above the achievement For that person in that dimension We can convert this achievement matrix to a deprivation matrix by having a one when they're underlined Hence a deprivation is there and zero when not Here's the deprivation matrix Take this deprivation matrix and see what share of deprivations people are deprived in What share of dimensions they're deprived in first person zero out of four second two out of four four out of four one out of four Whose poor according to this approach you have a cut-off across dimensions. Let's say it's a half Two out of four or more qualifies you to be poor then the two middle folks would be considered to be poor by this definition We then take the person who's down at the bottom over here. You notice that person's not poor, but has a deprivation Well poverty is not interested in people who aren't poor Poverty measurement so we censor the information of that person why censor to focus on the poor you have to ignore the deprivations of those who aren't poor Notice we've got rid of that from both the deprivation matrix and the censored the deprivation score So it obtaining the censored versions of both of those Aggregation is done by to In order to get the adjusted headcount ratio Aggregation can be done in three ways First take a look at that matrix the deprivation matrix add up the entries and divide by the number of entries That gives you six out of 16 or three eight Take the intensity levels there the deprivation scores average them up across all people Right, so there's four of them. You've got to take an average you'll get once again six out of sixteen Alternatively you can just look at the poor folks look at their average level of deprivation share or score That's their intensity Multiply it by the headcount ratio and you'll get the same number This satisfies a number of properties in The paper we have to actually define in a formal way the two properties of ordinality and dimensional breakdown We do I don't have time to just go through that definition just realize that we've done it Dimensional breakdown after identification has been done as to who's poor The poverty status of each person being fixed and staying fixed Multi-dimensional poverty can be expressed as a weighted sum of the dimensional components that depend only on that dimensional information in that dimension J The breakdown formula for the adjusted headcount ratio is very simple. It's weights Times what's called the censored headcount ratio? Added up across dimension That gives you M zero I Should mention what the censored headcount ratio it is it means that? You look at all people who are both poor and deprived in J in that dimension that indicator Okay, how many of them are there? Express that as a share of the total population. That's the censored headcount ratio So for our Cameroon example the censored headcount ratios are listed for each of the indicators in the first column That's one way of indicating this dimensional breakdown because if you average those columns the entries Using weights so you get a weighted average. You're going to have the overall Level of M zero the adjusted headcount ratio, which is 24.8 Likewise, you might multiply the HJs by the weights and list the absolute Contributions to poverty add them up and they give you overall M zero or the adjusted headcount ratio Finally you could look at the relative contributions by dividing through by total poverty That gives you percentages and now we start seeing how the first four Dimensions have you know force for indicators have more of Relative contribution as does fuel for this example The new property is called dimensional transfer and it's just like the dimensional monotonicity in a sense because you're dealing with additional Deprivations for poor people, but you're shifting deprivations around Multidimensional poverty should fall as a result of a dimensional rearrangement among the poor where that thing is such that you start with one person who's poor and another person who's poor and The one person who's poor Shifts with the person the other who's poor in one dimension. They just basically trade their achievement okay in Such a way that the dominance that was originally there goes away So you remove some of the correlation or association positive association thereby deadening if you will the inequality a little bit But the dimensional transfer does something else it requires you to do the same thing for deprivations At the same time Notice that everyone is staying poor who started poor Here's the example describing what happens. We have a two person Example where one person has more than the other in every dimension. They're poor Okay, and notice in the second Indicator they switch No longer dominant Go to the second Group of matrices pair of matrices. Those are the deprivation matrices Notice that they have switched a deprivation Okay, those two things have to happen if they happen then inequality has fallen according to the kind of standard Atkinson bourguignon and many other people Sui and a lot of other people approach Dimensional transfer implies that poverty would fall The question is are there measures satisfying this dimensional transfer? Certainly not the headcount the adjusted headcount ratio. It just violates it So we talk about a class the M gamma class Which has as its identification a dual cutoff as well, but aggregation now it's no longer just the mean of the scores themselves But it's the scores that are raised to a power gamma Okay, and this has an impact so I Should mention that this class has elements that come out of a lot of papers and so you can find Something very similar in the papers listed there, and they also are very similar to an FGT approach The main measures include the headcount ratio the adjusted headcount ratio and what we call a squared count measure so Where is dimensional transfer satisfied anything with a gamma greater than one? But for that same range dimensional breakdown is violated Are there any other measures that satisfy both at the same time this dimensional breakdown is important? And the answer is given by an impossibility theorem. No, there isn't the proof follows a result by Potniak and so forth The idea is that dimensional transfer requires a fall in poverty dimensional breakdown says no you can't it has to be the same The conclusion is it's easy to construct measures that satisfy dimensional transfer But the cost is you lose dimensional breakdown, which is extremely important and has been used in Colombia to coordinate ministries Used frequently across many countries for budget allocation purposes and for policy analysis So you don't want to lose that property So we explore a resolution Maybe we should use multiple measures One measure for one thing and the other to capture inequality. Yeah, that's a possible use the M gamma class Maybe we could limit dimensional transfer Thus getting rid of the impossibility. No, it's already pretty limited same with dimensional breakdown So we wondered what to do further Well paper by dot suggests using the Shapley methods of Tony Shorrocks The Shapley value approach is great in that it finds contributions of each part of the whole It's useful especially for non-linear functions like the M gamma and it takes the so-called average marginal contribution across all permutations of Intering the dimensions going from one to the next next the cons of the Shapley value approach is it's extremely tedious to calculate It's unintuitive for policymakers and as pointed out by Shorrocks and his original paper is problematic for hierarchical variables consider Single-person examples that we do in the paper Pat and Joe on the next two slides There's ten indicators three dimensions as in the global MPI The goal is to calculate the Shapley contribution for the first indicator nutrition Poverty in this case reduces to just taking the score to the power gamma for the person So by the way if we look at gamma equals one it's easy everything's additive So the Shapley breakdown is exactly the original dimensional breakdown. We had on the slide a while back For others they're very tedious calculations, and I don't want to get into what I had to do to do it Here's the example Nutrition you deprived in Pat is and then all of the educational variables okay Alternatively Joe is deprived in nutrition and all of the living standard variables The contribution you would expect would be the same for nutrition Okay Nutrition in one other dimension Instead if you look at Pat and Joe the Shapley breakdown contribution of the first dimension is flat for Pat But rises and falls for Joe you'd expect the same But they're very different because of hierarchical variables for every gamma, but two One being M zero gamma equals one and the other surprisingly gamma equals two so we were perplexed by this and studied it much further and Found out that you can get a closed form solution for gamma equals two the squared count measure Define the censored head count ratio as before and Now look at the group of people who are poor and deprived in J See their average intensity call it AJ remember that's four dimension J You have a different AJ and Then multiply the two to get what's called the censored adjusted head count ratio The theorem is the Shapley Brack breakdown for M to zero the squared count Measure has a closed form solution each component is obtained by multiplying Each component of the dimensional breakdown of M zero by AJ In other words take all the tables that Ophi is created for M zero Multiply by the AJ's you get a table that includes information on inequality for the inequality sensitive measure and For the decomposition picture. There's an example for Cameroon We see censored head count ratio We see dimensional breakdown again, and we see the relative contribution for the M zero Those are the three columns column one column two and one two three four five six and now AJ is there If it were constant you'd get the same breakdown entirely, but you don't get the constant AJ It varies across dimension hence skewing it one way or the other greater toward the beginning Indicators Multiply each one of those three columns from M zero to get the columns for M zero two We get the censored adjusted head count the Shapley breakdown all there explicitly and done easily and more Importantly, I think the relative contribution there You can compare those relative contributions between with and without inequality information They're quite close to one another, but they vary in interesting ways So let me conclude we've defined dimensional transfer who showed how it conflicts with a basic axiom of dimensional breakdown We've defied derive the closed form solution for the Shapley breakdown of the squared count measure and We recommend using this M gamma measure all Tandemly at once just like p alpha have been used over time and space That's it. Thank you very much