Okay, good afternoon. Thank you. And since Russia's European identity is kind of ambivalent or split identity. I can give you two lists of European uncertainties, what I consider. One is how we see your European if we mean Europe by EU and how we see European if we mean a slightly wider Europe. So it's Brexit. You care so much about it, but I guess it's returned to kind of traditional already existed in history. Trilateral structure of the Euro-Atlantic West and nothing new strategically happens in this case. Migration inflow, it's still uncertainty, but I guess you already got used to this inflow and thanks God it's stopped and now it could resume because of what's happening in Kurdistan, in Syria, where there are new offensive of Turkey. Then it right-wing parties, right-wing politicians and even traditionalists. If women, Poland for example, those who are still in power, I don't know whether you're going to keep, now it's their chance is really very strong. They're traditionalists, but those traditionalists, those who nowadays Europe are kind of really old-fashioned and those who make various upon the say greater dynamism of Europe for the development of the European Union and sure here from Russia that are two two different attitudes. Once it's to follow you, let's say kind of general public attitude that it's a kind of challenge, it's something new, it's outstanding, it's all that stuff. And another, some of the Russians that they consider that they can play with these right-wingers and traditions that are not always traditionalists ready to interact with the Russians once again in this Polish case. Balkans, sure they're not any more as white as they were previously, such an immense field of problems, but this bunch of Soviet, Kosovo and Macedonia, it's still there, it's still an uncertainty. Then it's Trump's U.S. foreign policy towards Europe that makes U.S. more distant from Europe, that somehow poses difficulties inside Europe. It brings additional problems when it comes to overall organization of world trade and makes all the agreements of EU with its neighbors, traditional partners, including African or ACP partners, let's say more complicated, since U.S. behaves in the world trade system in an absolutely non-WTO, let us say, way. And then another list, a list of, let us say, great Europe problems. First of all, it's Ukraine, then it's Turkey, because Turkey provokes European problems outside Europe, but then they come to Europe again with momic brachia, again with unrest in the Middle East, again with new, sometimes very surprising unions, alliances when it comes to the situation in the Middle East, it involves the Europeans, and sure Russia itself. Do you mind if I just come back, I'm just curious, why do you think Russia is so attractive to European right wing wingers? How do you explain that to yourself? I guess it's simply very official and wrong attitude, because they simply say something that different from what those who are traditionalists, I mean traditionalists in Western Europeans say, they say different things than the governments, and it's old-fashioned game that dates to the between war periods to find out different awkward groupings and to deal with them having in mind their potential access to power. But I guess both this attitude is wrong, and next that those awkward groupings in spite the fact that they haven't to be very numerous, that they come at once in some periods to the European scene, that they know, that say, kind of overwhelming friend in Europe.


American observers watched the shelling of Nazi positions in Asserno, a town in the path of the American advance in southern Italy. Orders are given to move up. In trucks and jeeps, the Fifth Army rolls ahead. The twisted wreckage of powerful German Mark IV tanks lines the route of the Nazi retreat. Americans occupy Asserno. Hopefully they search for snipers, still concealed in the ruins of demolished streets. Captured Nazi soldiers are herded behind the lines. In accordance with international law, one is questioned by an intelligence officer. All find United States Army rations a welcome treat. Regiments of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry are a part of the United States Fifth Army. Born in Hawaii, they're intensely loyal to the land of their birth. Whose Eighth Army is pushing up the Adriatic coast visits General Clark at Fifth Army headquarters near Naples. Monte Corvino's important airfield is captured. Still littered with Nazi planes that never got off the ground. Junker transports and Messerschmitts, not quite so formidable now. Rolls on. All roads lead to Rome. Held Assam Mountains of northern Burma, rescue planes search for 20 men forced to parachute from a China-bound transport. Radio signals sent just before the plane fell have brought the searching parties to the scene. They sight the lost men in a clearing below. A remote village 6,000 feet up in the mountains. Food and medical supplies are dropped by parachute. A doctor and two medical corpsmen also are landed by parachute to give first aid to the maroon men. Say enough, these primitive natives, once headhunters of the jungle, proved to be the white men's best friends. They fed and sheltered the stranded party until help arrived from the skies. The natives led the survivors through the wild, uncharted country, heading towards the India frontier. His leg broken, the bearded flight sergeant who sent the message for help is borne by carriers. These pictures show the party nearing the end of their journey. Theirs is a dramatic story of heroism and survival. Without that radio message, they might have been lost forever. Happy ending to a modern saga of the jungle. Forks Fifth Avenue, 25,000 Americans of Polish descent, made in honor of General Pulaski, Polish hero of the American Revolution.  The Polish ambassador review the annual procession as patriots march in the cause of freedom. The United States Army Air Force arrives to visit American airmen based in the British Isles. He inspects a battle-scarred bomber just back from a raid over Germany. Also here is Captain Clark Gable, veteran of ten raids over Europe. One-time movie star, now a gunner in the United States Army Air Force. In Detroit, Michigan, the first practical helicopter is brought to be placed in the museum of Henry Ford. The gift of inventor Igor Sikorsky. Development of aviation, the automobile magnet adds the Sikorsky craft to his famous collection. New York City, the Princess Martha of Norway comes with her three children to dedicate a Norwegian naval training station. Sailors of Norway's vast merchant fleet are greeted by the princess. Her small son and two daughters look on with pride as their mother, in the name of the king, decorates Norwegian officers for gallantry in action. Princess Martha, symbol of Norway's fighting spirit in the cause of the United Nations. Hugo Slav units trained by the United States Army Air Force with liberator bombers they'll fly in combat, receive their wings and are presented to President Roosevelt. Built with two great objectives, the first is to drop bombs on our common enemy successfully and at the right points. The second is to deliver to your compatriots in Yugoslavia the much needed supplies for which they have waited so long. The eight lightning fighters form a protective covering for Allied bombers of the South Pacific Air Force as they roar in to draw a Japanese air base on the north coast of New Guinea. Dozens of enemy planes line the landing field as the bombers come in with guns blazing. Striking miles to the east, another group hits installations at Nubia and Hansa Bay. Jap batteries their chief target. People flying V-25s unload tons of delayed action bombs. It hurts right still another chapter in the United Nations' new aerial offensive. Tasting ruins of Jap installations on the Gilbert Islands, attesting to the accuracy of their fire. Off the coast of Terawa, United States planes attack enemy shipping for the American planes. They've taken a heavy toll of Japanese ships and now they're ready to celebrate. The crossing of the equator finds the traditional King Neptune still holding cork. The sailor man's sense of humor taking time out from the war.


This is my beat from Times Square to Columbus Circle, the gaudiest, the most violent, the lonesomeest mile in the world. This is my beat with Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover. The night that begins to curtain Broadway in late November is a thing of gauze, grey stuff that touches autumn to December, and the moon pocks the shadows with a frosty light. It's time of the three coffee dinner, of the sweater and the vest under the coat. But the plucked birds hang high, and there, stalks of corn and wheat, and in shop windows a tableau of settlers and friendly redskins biting dusty pumpkins. Holiday time, everywhere, everybody will be eating turkey, it says. And uptown, far uptown where I was, only night wind and the near pattern of campus lights in back of the student union building, and Detective Muggerman and the woman dead. The night watchman was making his rounds, caught her in his flash, phoned it in. Identification? Yeah, handbag. Here. Grace Cullen, 19. This is it, sir. Yeah, thank you very much. 1903, West 160. That check with your observations, Muggerman? Okay, okay. Shot from up close.  Oldish, or what? Well, college campus, nighttime. Still kind of pretty. About 37 to 40, I'd say. Well. Yeah. You stick around for technical, Muggerman. See you later. Police, open up. The length of the latch chain in the tip of my nose through the slit. As far as I get with late dates.  Yeah, see. You're dealing with a sleepy child, and I'd better turn the porch light on, so I'll know it's not just a recurrent dream. True badge. And you've wakened me, and you've proven your point. What next, policeman? It's about Mrs. Grace Cullen, she... Normally, other nights, Grace would have opened the door to you. But as Grace is not at home, and she's heaven knows where... She's dead. Murdered. That did it. I'm awake now, you can come in. I'll turn the lights on in the parlor. Where Grace and I receive our dates.  You're related to Mrs. Cullen? Oh, that's it. I thought I was her daughter or something like that now. No tie of blood between Grace and me. Then... Grace ran an ad in the college paper. Room and board for girl student in return for light housekeeping. Look how nice I keep it. You can try for dust anywhere you choose. Maureen Hill, sophomore in light housekeeping. Now, what's this about Grace? They found her on the campus a little while ago. Grace is a widow. Oh? She's 41. A widow, 12 years. She told me she was 37. I scouted around. I found out she was 41. Look... Any way you look at it, she's a widow. I know, you told me. And there was a rapport between her and football players. She understood their sorrows and problems. Observe the footballs lining the mantel. Shall I have a date with one of them tonight? The boy was here earlier tonight. Left in, type boy. His eyes were glazy and his manner was hazy. Big game today and we lost and the boy was drunk and came caught. Who was the boy? Left in, wait 197, 6-3. I got a swift dream on the playing field and in the headlines his name was Lloyd Keeler. He was here for a while and he went away. And after that? After that I wouldn't know. I said good night to Grace. They curled up in my downy. Reminds me it's where I should be now. Nighty night policemen. So leave there. And outside the streets have given up to midnight. Stone facades against darkness. Older doors. And only here and there the pencil line of light beneath drawn shades. Section of city asleep. Properly, respectively. So home now. Not your own. Two key type. One key for the front door. The other for the rented room and bath and kitchenette. And sleep. The rented sleep. And morning. New days. So get ready for it. Then call headquarters and give your route for the day. Right up town. The college. Inquire at the registrar. Get the name and address of the fraternity house of Lloyd Keeler. Go there. The boy who answers the door for you is disappointed you're not an old grad or something. Thus leaving empty his handshake of curled little finger and vertical thumb. But his answers are bright and quick. Lloyd Keeler is not there. Wasn't in last night. I've seen him. Don't know where he is. Tried the gym he offers. Coach. Red price. Old red I don't know. Any time at all he leaves you with, fella. So across the campus. The sad sunny paths of branch shadows and young people. And into the coach's office. And old red looks just like his pictures in the paper. Except no hair. Have a seat. Thanks. No thanks. You know I think the Cougars are too deep down the center of the line for us. The rains were dead. What with our stallow tail backpribic temporarily on the sideline with a fracture. I'm a policeman. Not a reporter. Oh. Trying to locate Lloyd Keeler. He'd do something with a bucket of red paint in town. For questioning about murder. Where do I find him? Murder. Well I wouldn't know of hand where the lad is. Right as a three. Maybe then. Tell me something about him. Caught two TD passes last week. What else about Lloyd? Shifty and the clear. One ninety seven and shifty. Word of scampers. Good day for the college when he entered our ranks. Scholarship. Sponsored. Which means what? Being paid for. Remember Don Davy? Nope. Don Davy. Brick house done. Also an end. Played here in 32. Blocked Texfield all try for the league championship. Smothered it. You remember. Sure you do. Don Davy huh? Local. Sure. Park Avenue.  Hey uh. Bet the phone. No thanks. Thanks a lot. It's a brutish thing. Rather a mess isn't it? At least that's how I feel about it. That woman. Woman of middle age. Found like that on a college campus. And a boy of twenty. Sorted. Not pretty. That's how it happens Mrs. Davy. Doesn't it though? One thing I'll never understand. Fun. I've read of such things in newspapers. I uh. I buy sordid little paperback books. Read myself to sleep with such things. But I never thought of walking to my home. And breathe so close. That boy mixed up in it. Lloyd Keeler. I was told your husband is sending him through college. Is that our guilt Mr. Clover? That we were nice to an athlete? Where is your husband? In his study. It's where he retreats after lunch. Charts. Football plays. I hardly think it worth while disturbing him. I do. Disturb him Mrs. Davy.   Get him. Don. Donnie. How many times does it take to get through? Don't scold dear. I have a terrific reason. There's a policeman in our home. I can't do that dear. Because he's brought us a murder. Coming dear. My husband Mr. Clover. And he's irritated and angry. Because you've intruded on what play this time dear. 54. Play 54. Claire said murder. You must have read about it. She was found on the campus of your college. The woman was Mrs. Grace Cullen. 20 years ago when I was big on the college team I knew of Grace Cullen. Don't tell me this is the same one. I'll get sad. Real sad how the year stands still. Maybe she's the same one. But this year she's been going up with a boy named Lloyd Keeler. Years sure stands still, don't they fella? Do you know where Lloyd is? Well, Don had him pledged to Don's paternity. Why don't you try there, Mr. Clover? He's not there. Do you have any other ideas? Oh, we do a sponsor him. That doesn't make Claire his mother. Doesn't make me his father. Then you don't know, is that it? When I was a lad I sometimes broke training and nobody could ever find me either. Sometimes for days. That's the way it was fella, sorry. And leave there on the four o'clock lunch. Blue plate special of pre-holiday drumstick and paper cup of coleslaw, smaller one of cranberries and coffee that looks yellow under the overhead light. Ride through afternoon streets festooned with flat mufflers and red mittens. Turn left where the Doberman in a hip-length knitted overcoat breathes steam up with a maiden in coat to match. Crowd dwindles. Then a right turn. Headquarters. Down the corridor lined with bulletin boards and tips on courtesy. Don't quite make your office. Hey, Danny. I tried to get in touch with Mr. Davies. You just left. What's the matter? Where you been? I got hungry, Muggerman. I ate, you mind? Well, just listen, will you? Sure, what's the... That kid, that end on the college football team Lloyd Keeler. What about him? In the morgue. What? Found him in an alley, shot to death. Murdered, Danny. You're lucky you had time to eat. I haven't. You are listening to Broadway's My Beat written by Morton Fine and David Friedkin and starring Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover. Early afternoon and late November touches Broadway's cheeks softly now. Whispers the traceries of winter. One chrome will be veiled with frost. Also windows. Also the lips of women. And the autumn memories barren, leafless, stripped. But there are minutes left in the autumn twilight, so breathe them deep, walk them slow. They're still time before neon and the long night. They're sunset, the flame of autumn color and the concrete slabs. There's the twilight passage of the twilight women. And fury is not yet. Only this. The dying of November. And at headquarters, the awe and the wonder of the man, Sergeant Geno Tortaglia. Danny, you haven't been listening. I'm sorry, Geno. I was just... No, gathering is the phrase that comes willy-milly to my mind. I'm sorry. What were you saying? I was merely relating to you the far-flung exploits of one Mike who just happens, just happens to be the miracle detective from Pittsburgh, PA, when your attention walked out on me. That's right. The last time you told me about him, he lived in Philadelphia. Cleaned up, Willie. Now graces the avenues and citadels of Pittsburgh, PA. And a good thing, too. No. It was in the smog there that he fell upon plastic memory. Huh? What was that, Geno? I'll explain to you. The weapon that did in Daphne fenced the backstage of Carnegie Hall, which was found lying beside her was thought at first to be merely a bloody shoehorn. Geno. After dusting the fingerprints on the murder weapon, Mike, with his customary genius, plunged the shoehorn into a pot of boiling water which never leaves his side. He did what? And in a few minutes there clutched in his blistered fist instead of a shoehorn, a plastic dagger. Plastic memory, Danny. I'll explain to you. It is the custom of plastic to return to its original shape. You threw a genome? Well, I wished only to clarify for you. Yeah, I'm through, Danny. And that's all you have for me, huh? No, I have other items. You'll tell me, huh? Goes without saying. From the medical examiner, Dr. Sinske, this report which states that Lloyd Keeler, late of college football, was shot and wounded fatally perhaps an hour after the death of Mrs. Gray's cousin. I place it on your desk. That other paper in your hand, you know. A PS to the report from detective Muggevin stating that the murdered boy was found in the alley back of the home of the college with old Mrs. Gray's colleague. I place it on your desk. And these elderly college girls, Danny. All right, you know, you can go now. If such is your pleasure, Lieutenant. You must admit one thing, though, Danny. What? That in the case of Daphne Fenster, Mike Shrek merits an orchid. Good evening, Danny. So consider now the elements. Set them down on paper. Neat. Crisscross lines from names to events. Switch the swivel chair. Look out the window. Attitude for thinking. But somehow the swift curve of newspaper page, wind trap blowing down the street, intrudes. And the race between pedestrian and taxi, and the winner's gesture. And the first dart of light through beginning evening's dark. Believe it. Turn back to the desk. Items to be thought about. A woman murdered. Woman, friend of the college for 20 years. I place it on your desk. I place it on your desk. I place it on your desk. I place it on your desk. I place it on your desk. I place it on your desk. I elderlyly was builds at the college for 20 years. The football player murdered in back of her house. Football player, a boys whose talents were subsidized by an old grad. Old grad, erstwell hero. Old grad, man who should be talked to some more. Squadcar again, and right through evening streets. Park Avenue. Park the car. You remember me, don't you? Mr. David? I remember you. What is it? More questions. Your wife, too. She's not in. She's being fed. I'm happy for her.  Fella, Fella, come in. Come in by all means. Thanks. Never. In here, my Dan. Please have a seat. Well, thanks. I'd rather... Hmm, a lot of trophies. Yeah, yeah, quite a few. Were you an All-Americans, Mr. Baby? Don. Who were you, Don? One sports editor in Baltimore, two more in the Middle West named me. Mostly second-staying All-Americans. See, you've got your old jersey. Yeah. Now, I'm wearing this watch. You could... Here. I'll take it off. No, no, no, no, no. No trouble. Look at the bag. The greatest kick blocker of them all. Fella's gave me that after the last game with Tech. You must have heard of the tag match, Don.  Boy, we've got to win this game. We've got to block this kick. And I did. I tore it through the secondary. Let's talk about light, Keeler, huh? Glad to, Fella. I scouted him myself. He was playing for City High. I called at his house, offered to send him to college. He accepted. Great boy. Lots of promise. When he loses that habit of his, they're rubbing his hands together sometime before and then around. He's dead. Didn't you know that? Didn't you see the papers? No. No, I didn't. Mark? Why? That's what I'm trying to... Oh, who murdered? You, Fella. What were you last night, Don? Boozing. Huh? You've got a law that says no, Fella, to sit with a friend and remember to drink to it. What friend? Played with me three years first string, just like I was right beside me, Tackle. I know that is, don't you? No. Johnny Harris, Fella, who else? Ask him. Oh, Johnny's got a business now, so it's easy to find a plant store in Lexington. Ask him. Why don't you, Fella? I'm just about to close up, Mr. But you're welcome to browse around. Find any item that hits you, just yell out. You're Johnny Harris. That's it, so you don't have to worry about it. Salesman's commission, I'm all there is. You find what hits you. I'm always willing to talk business. Find stock, electric floor waxes by Uber. Be glad to demonstrate. I'm from the police. And I'm in electric appliances, so we, too, have got what to hold up our heads about, huh, mister? That's not right, are you, me? I just left on Davey. Ah. He showed you his gold watch from after the tech game. Huh? As me got the boys to buy it for him. I didn't have fat on me then like I got now. You've stayed friends with him since college? Yeah, yeah, let's call it that. Don was a likable boy, never quite made man. But then you could say he was up against tough opposition. Like what? You meet his wife? You get to meet Claire Davey? What about her? You said you were with Don a little while ago. Don, second string, all American boy preserved in wax. That's what about his wife, Claire Davey? I don't understand. I don't blame you, it's hard to. The way I figured it's like this, Claire's a rich girl. She bought herself a one play hero, a second stringer who once won a Saturday afternoon. She'll never let him go. That's why she indulges him. Yeah, he spots it. He's got a marriage scholarship. She pays the bills, he works out football plays. Funny thing about him, whenever things get rough, he tucks the pigskin under his arm and runs up and down the football field. Funny. Tell me why I should spill like this to you. Two killings, Grace Cullen, Lloyd Keeler. And you came right from Donnie to me. That's right. Read the paper about him. About Mrs. Cullen, I haven't gathered any feeling yet. About the kid, about Lloyd. What about him? Sorry for him. Sorry for Don. Why for Don? Yeah, I'm not big with words, Mr. All I can tell you is lately Don's whole life was wrapped around that football kid, all he ever talks about now. Don't even boo so much anymore. I don't know what it is, the kid meant something real deep to Don. Maybe in the boy he saw himself when he was a kid. Maybe he thought he could make a man out of the kid, the kind of man Don never was. I don't know, I ain't that deep. Like that, huh?   He did? He said he sat with you and drank and remembers. He said all that, huh? Well, boy, excuse me, Mr. Johnny, hair speaking. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'll pay attention. Now, no play, kid. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, it was very glorious how we trimmed tech, but that was 20 years ago. Now, you listen to me. Before, when you called, I was ready to run along with a gag because we're college chums, because I feel sorry for you sometimes, because it happens to a guy. Not now, kid. No play. You heard, huh? That was Donny, boy. Last night, I didn't sit with Don. I didn't drink with him. I didn't remember with him. I was to a movie with my wife. I paid for the tickets. Thanks, Mr. Harris. Bad for Don. You know where to find him? Danny? Yeah? Guy's nuts, huh? Must have been kicked in the head, but it's. There's Markovan over there. This stands. Oh, yeah. Good evening. This is Detective Markovan, Mrs. Davy. You cold sitting up here, Mrs. Davy? Gentlemen care for a drink? There's still some in the thermos bottle. Jim? Why? Yes, help yourself. No, thanks, sir. Don't care for any. Please, sit down. 19, 72, 38. This is Davy. First, I want to tell you this. When Don comes off the field, telling him he was very good. Tell him better than ever. You kidding? Sure, we will. You were about to ask me, Mr. Culver? About all that's happened. Wave. Wave to him. He's looking. Thank you. 14, 96, right? About all that's happened, Mrs. Davy. I've. Lieutenant means about a couple murders, Mrs. Davy, a woman named Grace Cullen, a kid named Lloyd Keeler. I know. An explanation you mean. Or a confession, Mrs. Davy. Somewhere or the other. Or both would be nice. You see, it's so difficult to tell you all. Let me help you. You? About Don, what you did to him. I suppose you could say it that way. It's brutal, but it's true, I suppose. It's over now, isn't it? All of it. Yes. What you did to him, Mrs. Davy. Bought yourself a second string husband and wrapped him up and never let him go. 37, 93. Look at him.  And the only way out, he knew. Football plays mapped out in his study. And this, what he's doing now. The old times when he was almost somebody. And then that kid came along, the football kid, Lloyd Keeler. Yes. Then I lost my husband. Everything your husband knew he wasn't. He saw fulfilled in that boy. The old college try, the old try. The time when he most nearly became a man. You're so right.  You see, it's been 20 years. And I've owned Donny. And suddenly I didn't own him. That boy. Yes, I shot him. Grace Cullen, too. No. 86, 92, 14, 27. I tell you that because if it's over for me, then it's over for Don. He got away for a little while. Now we'll both suffer for it. Then here's what. You shot Lloyd after he'd seen Grace. Ask him. Leave him alone. I don't think we need to ask him anything, not now. Don came to see Grace, saw Lloyd walk out of their drunk. Don went for a walk with her. Then he killed her. Why? Can you tell me that? Don must have figured Lloyd lost the game on account of Grace. Hi. Oh, Don, here you drink, dear. Breaking training. You want a drink, dear? You were ready to go with us, Don? I'll tell you something first. What? When I saw you come here, I knew you were. When you waved, I knew Claire told you to. I was going to run, but I'm old and fat.  Where? Yes. Turned out the way you wanted. It'll happen to me, it'll happen to you. Happy day. It's the happy time on Broadway after the movie's time and nobody wants to go home. It's a place strung against the night like a phosphorescent alley and their heat there, golden girl and bright-eyed kid, the man with the promises and the guy who believes him. Broadway's My Beat stars Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover with Charles Calpher as Tartaglia and Jack Krushen as Muggevin. The program is produced and directed by Elliot Lewis with musical most and conducted by Alexander Courage. In tonight's story, Paula Winslow was heard as Claire and Lou Merrill as Don Davy, featured in the cast were Joyce McCluskey, Eddie Fields, and Tom Tully, Bill Anders speaking. Has come to you through the worldwide facilities of the United States Armed Forces Radio and Television Service.


We're going to begin our discussion on security, so what I'm going to do is I will invite our three speakers to the stage for each room to speak for 10 minutes and after that we'll have opportunity for discussion and questions. I'd be delighted to take as many questions as possible from the floor. So if there is a question that you think of during a presentation, make a note of it and after the three presentations we'll hopefully get opportunity to discuss all of those themes. So I'm going to invite our three speakers and I'll introduce them as they come up. But if you can come up this side, sorry. First you'd like to stay here because we're here talking. Right, thank you. So just while we get our presentations ready, unfortunately this issue of security, we could talk about it for the whole bank holiday weekend but we only have until half past 10. So our speakers only have 10 minutes and that is a very short amount of time to get through everything that they want to. Hopefully it would be enough to prompt our discussions and to talk through the large themes that we will have. Roshina here in the front row so she'll be telling our speakers how much time they have left. And I'd now like to welcome our first speaker who as I said is Ms Kristi Naranen. She is the director of international relations at the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats and her talk today is on the changing character of peace, the landscape of hybrid threats. So as our first speaker, please give Ms Kristi Naranen a round of applause. Thank you. It's very generous to you to applause before I've even opened my mouth. Thank you very much for the support and the pressure. NB80 is one of my favourite formats of international politics. I've been the Finnish ambassador to Estonia for five years. I lived there also in the 90s for four years and I lived there in 90s for five years so I lived there nine years. I was the first Baltic desk officer in the Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1992 and I followed the independence process from Leningrad in 1990-92. Plus I learnt my Swedish in Tallinn where the Nordic cooperation was very, very intense in the 90s and not less in this decay. I work presently at the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats which might be an organisation that some of you know I'm not going to concentrate on the centre however today because the sales and marketing department of the centre is closed for the moment as we are receiving so many new members that we will now concentrate on absorbing the ones that we have. So Iceland, Ireland, you are more than welcome to join but this is not for this purpose. The purpose is to talk about the changing character of beats and about the concept of hybrid threats. I mean we hear the word quite often yet there seems to be very little not understanding but conceptualisation that what are we actually talking about. I'd like to refer to a speech of Antonio Miserolli that the Assistant Secretary-General of NATO in Helsinki Conference on Hybrid Threats that we had earlier this week and he said that I drive hybrid car, the pedestrians don't hear when I appear. Oh, they only see me when I'm there. True which means that you have to use all your senses, 360 degrees to observe the elements of society around you. That's one and in order to hear you also need to listen. So we are not talking about anything new. I mean this is something that we've always had in society. So during the Cold War period there were so many things that were happening around us. Party financing was an everyday feature. This information using the fifth column was used everywhere the use of your fellow countrymen and taking advantage of their most everyday business. So why is it so typical now? Topical now? There are few reasons that are there. First of all the changing world order after the Cold War we all figured out that the Western regime that won the Cold War would prevail and then we would live happily ever after. Well that didn't quite take place and that has resulted in power transition from the West first away from West and to the fragmented world. The rise of China is a completely different new element in this debate and this has also led to the fragmentation is leading to dividing lines in societies which is bringing this fragmentation to the national and domestic fora. Technological revolution has changed that all and that has brought us a lot of prosperity, wealth, speed, reliability, transparency so we should never say the digitalisation should be stopped. It cannot be stopped but it has brought the cyber threats along with it. That has also brought the changes in media landscape which means that the connectivity not only regionally but also ideologically and globally has brought a completely new platforms for the adversaries or the malign influencing that was not there before. And the climate change is not only bringing the anxiety and society I like Mr. Minister you were referring to the point that Mr. Minister was referring to was the point that generations don't understand each other and the expectations are different and changing. Climate change is also bringing the physical vulnerabilities of societies. If there's a forest fire flood, storm, the authorities are under stress if you add on a cyber attack and a few successful disinformation campaigns you would have the questions asked that why do not the authorities do anything which is undermining the trust to societies and its actors. And this is bringing the dividing lines into societies states, regions, generations, ideologies and this is very fertile ground for outside influencing very, very fertile ground and this has brought us to the concept of modern conflict. Conflicts are different than it has ever been, they have ever been before and this all needs to be put into the historical, political, economic, geographic, cultural context so the same action in one context is considered to be very different than in another one. Let's take the immigration issue. The borderline of Finland was opened by Russia in 2015 in autumn. It's a Norway who are completely almost as similar as countries can be examined and analysed the situation in a different way based to the fact that our political history with Russia is so different. One was talking about corrupt border guard and Finland talked about hybrid influencing, testing rather. So this needs to be taken into account and this means that we have to know what the historic and economic and et cetera context of your country is. So hybrid threat, it's a western concept, it's coordinated and synchronised. If you have a look at our logo, I think it's all there. I hope that would kind of carve into your minds that there are red spots that are connected with each other. That's hybrid threat. It's a multi-faceted, multi-actor, coordinated, synchronised action. You have to make the difference between that and the individual red spots which might be individual cyber attacks disinformation campaigns because they are most more likely to be crime than anything else. However, sometimes cross-border connecting the dots would be the thing that we need to do and that's what the hybrid centre of excellence is doing is that we do not only look into our own societies and the actions taking place there but also cross-border because that's usually the case. It's exploiting the thresholds, detection attribution. Who's behind this action? Who was behind the bombing of the Saudi Arabian oil refinery? We still don't know. War and peace, there was war in Georgia. There's never been peace since. Internal, external, internal threats are taken care of by police. External is military, not the case anymore. Military is civil, public, private, facts and fiction. This 01 world that we have lived in and what our computing is based on doesn't exist anymore. We are moving towards a world where friends and foes are not distinguished. Well, if a friend attacks a friend where a friend has left a region where is the enemy? If we talk about North Syria as we speak. So this is what the world looks like today and all these things are here to stay and that's something where international coordination and cooperation is needed and that main aim is to influence the decision-making bodies local, state, institutional level because they are the ones who make the decisions and the aim is that we would ourselves make the decisions that are harmful to us and beneficial for the adversary. I would jump over that because of the time. That's the same thing just in the visual format. You will get the slides later so you can study that yourself. So also the military if you look at the hybrid warfare because this is something that is very often discussed that warfare and hybrid threats are blurred also. Military-centric warfare is the one that you have the military attacking. This is the North Syria today. This has been the Falkland Islands war and many others but the hybrid warfare means that all those tools are used in different concerted matters like a Swiss knife which is tailored and which is using the knife as a military tool but also many others. These are the values with which we want the Cold War democracy, democratic institutions, human rights, etc. These are also our vulnerabilities in certain occasions and these are also the ones that the adversary will look into when they are trying to find the targets of malign action in our societies. In this family Nordic Baltic Aids and Ireland and a few others this is a very strong set of interests and values that we have. Not all countries have them and the adversaries have none. This is why this group of experience and context is so vital to build our resilience and our future actions on. For that to detect the threats to respond to them and with that deter we need to be aware of the situation we need to share information to build the situational awareness then we will be able to detect, we need to communicate we need to be unified in doing that and showing the political will to counter and join our forces to do that. To conclude we need to have the democratic values we need to recognize that they need to be defended they do not live without that anymore in the fragmentation of societies. We all have vulnerabilities because we tend to think that the strong Nordic countries are so strong that they can up anything, not the case. We need to have rational intellectually honest analysis for that, that's sometimes the tricky part. Cornerstones of democracy are a challenge we need to admit that. Comprehensive all government approach is the only thing if we have overarching threats we need to have overarching response and there's an obviously a demand for joint action and we feel that the hybrid COE NB8 plus Ireland B then plus Germany plus UK plus the member states of our center which you can see below this is the reference group with which is the only way to build shared and joint security to these societies that we cherish so deep. Thank you very much.


Everybody, Jeff, how about from SfmSports.net here with head coach Andrew Bortalon after the Mustangs fall, one nothing in the Bridgewater. And coach, it's another tough one-goal loss, pretty even through the first half. And early in the second half, just a great goal that beat Mike Tringaui, top-left, top-right corner. That was what sealed it, but other than that, pretty even game throughout, I would think. Yeah, I think so. I thought our guys played well today. I thought it was our best performance of the year. As far as a 90-minute game, they played their best soccer today. Like I said, I think it was an even game. I thought that the quality of chances that we had, I thought should have been our way. I thought we should have scored at least four. But again, that's how soccer goes sometimes. And to be fair, at least we made them score a good goal tonight, which the guy deserves credit for. Is it tough to keep the team motivated through this stretch? I know it hasn't been the start to the Stevenson career that you would have wanted. How hard is it to keep these guys motivated? And what's the game plan for next week going forward? Well, I don't think it's hard to get them motivated.  And I think they see the progress that's coming and where we're going to go, which is motivation in itself. I don't feel the need to motivate them because they are personally motivated. The game plan next week is to continue to build on what we just did tonight. Like I said, I think because I have such high expectations of them and I know what they can do, I thought that tonight was the first performance that I walked off the field saying that's an extremely proud performance that we put in today. That's soccer. You don't always get the results that you deserve. And I don't think that happened today, but that's how it worked out. But at least, again, that was a performance that we can walk out of our locker room with our heads held high and think that we can be proud of. Coach, thanks for the time and we'll see you next week. All right, thank you. Andrew Borlund joining me after Mustangs Fall 1-0 in the Bridgewater here at Mustang Stadium.


Alright guys what's up welcome back to the channel a bit of an overcast day today out here I'm going to go slap some curbs and then probably hit save is because I need to buy some I need to buy some more clothes I've been running out of clothing. So yeah, that's a plan for this video We're going to go slap some curbs which I'm going to have to go discover and hunt find some curbs around here Shouts out to everybody helping me get to 25 000 subscribers on this channel. Thank you very very much I just want to keep going upwards. Um, yeah, I'll talk a little bit more later, but for now Let's just go find a red curb spot that I can skate. So I got a general feeling I'm just going to find crust out here, but I found this red curb It looks pretty dry. I don't think anyone's hit it, but let's have a look This little spot here behind this building this structure Um Yeah, as you can see I don't think this has ever been skated I think it was a normal curb and I just slapped on the red paint, which of course makes sense because that's how any red curb comes about But yeah, it's obviously unskated and it's dry as a nun's nasties. So I didn't bring any wax Striply enough, but I seen another little spot around the corner here. It's like a plan to type ledge that you can tell has been skated Because it's like super black. You can tell it's waxed up So I might try to get some slappies on this thing and I'll move on to the plan to ledge and then See what the day brings this overcast day in southern california So Slowly getting this curb broken in, you know what I think I'm going to do I'm going to come back here at night With a little bit of clear Lacker I'm going to come back at night with some clear enamel and then I'm going to like butter up this curb That's actually not a bad spot. It's super low-key. No one's here and it's just like a red curb The ground is smooth enough. So Yeah, I might do that. I pretty much did everything I could do on a curb I mean I learned slappy blunts once I gotta I gotta revisit them because Kind of forgot how to do them, but look how vast it is out here There's just open fields and mountains over there Once I get the yz altogether the yz 125 It's going to be over. I'm going to be ripping out here. I'm going to turn this From marino valley to more quarry fields like that on the yz found this little white crack thing Really wanted to ollie through it. My board can fit but Um, yeah, my feet it's another Another story. I don't know if that would be possible. It would be sick though. Why is this loose? Why does this need to be loose right now?  I believe it's a disabled parking spot, but it's pretty jacked up. Anyway, you'd have to like Really render this to get it to smoothly Slide or grind I think I don't think I've ever seen a green curb before I could be lying, but I don't think I've ever seen a green curb this green like this This is what we call an irish curb these green curbs So like I said, I don't have any wax today amateur mistake I'm gonna have to go to hobby lobby get some wax up to this maybe have time but check out this planter ledge This looks like it's been well hit and it's in a quite spot You've got this side here An other side there and you can come in from this way And then it kind of goes out onto the footpath here Landing is pretty how you're going All those cracks and stuff, but it's pretty quiet here Maybe I could get a trick on this maybe Found some wax here in this planter bed thing Um, it goes but it could probably deal with another little bit of Push, you know A little bit of uh, look at that That's like worn down Um, I'm going to try to front-tail it. Hopefully I just got to give it a bit of that butter And then hopefully it all comes together, you know luckily enough I'd be coming this way and then hopping on because there's like a gnarly crack here From all the earthquakes in southern california from the uh, San Andreas fault. This has happened I don't know if that's how it happened, but there's a crack there So I'm going to try a front-tail it coming this way and then roll off the curb here and hopefully it looks cool Oh, shit here comes the uh sunshine that would have been nice this morning, but better late than never I wore a beanie today because I thought it was going to be overcast and cold now It's warming up. So I think I got a spare hat in the car Look at this spot. How like low-key is this spot? Literally in the middle of nowhere. It's a vacant storefront here and there's a planter ledge I feel like dan would really appreciate skating here.  It's very aesthetic too. It's like I don't know. It just looks like something you would see in like skate there or something I really wanted to get this front lip pop out on this planter ledge, but it's extremely short Like by the time I was like creeping by the time you get on you're like picking up speed And then I kept like twanking my ankle on this because my board would just hit my ankle would like stop So I don't want to hurt my ankle again. So I'm going to call it on this front lip But I got up there a few goes. I feel like if it was like twice the length It would be possible Imagine if it like went all the way out to the curb and you could like get on and like pop off into the road here That'd be sick I'm not trying to put on airs or anything But marino valley low-key has some spots like if you gave a shit enough about this spot Oh, it looks like people have hit it already.  Check it out Look at this spot No one would harass you either because we're just in an industrial area But there is a big fire hydrant thing I'd be like worried about falling onto this as my back and landing with this on my spine or something But yeah Fun little spot even though I haven't skated it but it looks fun How's this for a culture shock for some reason in the states like If you're crossing a road or walking through a car park at a grocery center or something Cars will stop and like let you like walk literally they'll come to a stop And I'll let you walk in front of the car to cross over I don't know if I've spoken about this before but in Australia If you're crossing the road you better be quick because cars will speed up to like zip by you quickly I don't know if that's just a social thing down under but I've always grown up knowing that like when you're crossing the road like You don't like take your time like you get right across the road But uh even in like target the car park at target I'll be walking and our car will stop and I'll like quickly jog across the road and like wave to say thank you Because in Australia even in a car park you need to get out of the way and they'll uh, they'll speed up and zip by you I don't know if that it seems rude now, but that's just how it is in Australia. I'm pretty much done skating for today Um, I'm gonna head into savers. Hopefully I can pick up some button ups and stuff I know it's late in the day It's it's like two or three o'clock, but I know they get the drops like Tuesday morning or something So maybe I might find some stuff um Yeah Find a little session. I wish I got that front lip. Maybe if I find another planter ledge I'd similar to that I could do it because uh, I've been really liking the old pop over pop out type of board slide situation Split up to saviours that riverside Haven't been here in many many years Gonna try to make it quick. I'm just gonna try to be in and out. Hopefully scope some stuff get some stuff I really want a root beer float. So I want to make it quick because I want to get a planter and get a root beer float 30 seconds in found this Gray shirt with a usa flag It's uh, five bucks. It's a large. I'm probably gonna cop this. It's pretty thick the material is pretty thick So good for skating and I like I like usa flags, but there's super sick rough lorraine long sleeve, but it's uh It's a big mountain Big shirt, so it's not going to fit me, but I'll probably cop that if it was my size. Well That wasn't that great a lot of selection, but a lot of rubbish so much rubbish some some of the t-shirts is like just Donated in to make it a bag of rags. I don't know why you want to sell it for two dollars when it's like Terrible, but yeah, um all I copped was that usa t-shirt Trying to cop some jeans, but Nothing good in my size There's no cool hats Not a good selection of shoes a lot of running shoes But obviously I don't do much running and I have t-ans anyway, so I literally have the best running shoe you can ask for Got my root beer float and I have my chicken tenders And my vegan honey mustard. Look at these dogs. Look at it Like a little submarine Get a bit of that honey mustard on there Bone apple teeth. Usually when I come here, I get a burger chicken tenders and a root beer float, but it ends up being like 25 US dollars and I'm like it's too much money to be spending on it like a A fast food Meal, you know 25 bucks So I've cut it down to just chicken tenders and the root beer float because that's the most important part of the meal This is the last one I've smashed through two of them already Is this too good?  It was nothing like this. This is like the ultimate vegan chicken That plant power I wanted to have a quick chat with you guys because I've had a quite a few epiphanies I'm trying to have way more energy and show more personality in these videos because I feel like that's the only thing that's going to kind of separate Me from the rest is my own sense of personality and humor Otherwise, I'm just another skateboard youtuber here in california, which is fine. I This is what I wanted back in australia I wanted to be over here and I wanted to be around people that have been around skating and making videos and stuff So I'm super grateful, but I just want to go to the next level here So I really need to start paying more attention and energy into what I'm doing with this whole thing I can like just like aimlessly Just go out and skate and make video after video after video But I feel like if I'm not putting the right energy and attention into each video I feel like I'm not doing it justice, you know what I mean? I don't want to just half-ass it because I've come too far to half-ass it and I've come too far to Not accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish here so yeah I'm trying to be more of myself in these videos, which is hard because Naturally, I'm pretty introverted as you guys would know, but I don't know. I feel like I feel like I have a lot of hidden energy and humor that I don't really show because I'm so used to like Not portraying myself that way because I was an early child So I didn't have like siblings to play with and stuff So I'd kind of make my own fun and I feel like that kind of carries on into my life until now I'm still making my own fun. We just had some fun skating today and trying to thrift if you guys watched the whole video So yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to be more personable and humorous and energetic in these videos because Yeah, I am here in california Skateboarding, which is a privilege. Don't get me wrong It is a massive privilege to be able to be here skateboarding in california I feel like I'm just babbling on. I don't want to babble on. I'm just trying to get the point across to you guys But yeah, I'm gonna try to be making more videos I'm gonna be trying to skate more soo as I always am And the police just rolled in make sure you're going over to evening mob.com pick up a tote bag or a t-shirt or something Go and buy stuff from my brand. Cheers for watching the video and I'll see you guys in the next one later Cheers cheers Cheers big ears On your way back


I just want to remind everybody what's going on up at Standing Rock, please support what's going on. They're not only fighting for their rights, they're fighting for our rights and the rights of their enemies. There's been a lot of stuff going on, Amy Goodman's got an arrest warrant for doing the news and they've been beating up reporters and of course the mainstream media hasn't been really covering it. Peace is called crying when. After traveling underground, I arise into the light. I hear the chaos of our lives but underneath the sound of the drum, the heartbeat of pain, passion, racing, escalator pushes me off, I turn and see the drummer. Aged by the street, this sad-eyed native with the blues, chants and drums that drives the dancer. This aboriginal dancer dances from past memory, drowned in alcohol, fueled by fury. This dance is his protection. He bobs, weaves, hands pump, jabs, eyes blacker than the deepest caves, long dull black hair blows into his face, sticking to his skin. Divorced from himself as well as his people, he dances among the Americans with their manifest destiny eyes who only see just another couple of drunken Indians. I know this dancer. He would pick a fight so he could feel something, anything, even if it was filled with hurt. His name was crying wind and this is how he lived. I will truly never know all the things that drove him to this but I do know this man was robbed. There is a story where one character who complains about all the drunk Indians, the other answer is that maybe we ought to be glad they're all drunk. Imagine what would happen if they all got sober. And I, I so long for that day. Thank you.


Okay, so let's get started to welcome everyone to the Merge Implementary School number seven. First, congrats on the girly fork. This is one, this is yet one more step towards the merge, which is great. Okay, so we have not that tight agenda today. So it's going to be relatively fast. We'll go through a few updates and all discuss plans for Q3 then finish with some random discussions or probably spec discussions. So I'll start with implementation updates. I'll start from myself as usual. So I've been recently working on the prototype of the transition process. The spec of it has been merged, the part of the spec of it has been merged like a couple of weeks ago. So it's been implemented in Techu. I played with it in the local network. A few things I would like to share about this testing. I've tried it like in a positive test scenario and a negative test scenario where the block proposer tried to produce blocks before the computed transition total difficulty has been reached. So it went well. But obviously, we need more thorough testing with more mass on the network side. Like withholding the proof of work blocks by some part of the nodes of the network and then releasing them and so forth. Also one thing to bear in mind here is that I used local miner. So it resulted like in high fluctuations of block time intervals. And one of the goals of the total difficulty computation is the predictable merge time. But yeah, that wasn't like checked well in locally because of fluctuations. So it should be checked with some real miner which can produce more hash power. So that's the update from my side. But anyway, the prototype showed that the algorithm in general works, which is great. Any questions here? Very nice. How do you think is best to test some of these more complex scenarios? For example, like a partition in the network for two epochs after hitting the transition difficulty and things like that. Do we have anything in our toolkit to test that kind of stuff or do we need to build out some questions? That's a good question. If I was thinking about simulation, like simulation in the network stack, if we want some predictable scenario and so we can have some parameters of the mass that we want to have on the network layer. No, I don't think we have any tools for that. So we need to read on the consensus side. We could write fork choice stuff that essentially like a chain being built and then another chain is revealed with different difficulty and stuff. So there's a little bit we can do there in kind of an isolated fashion that we should. But yeah, simulation probably makes sense for... Yeah, right. Yeah, probably I've been correct saying this simulation of the network part. Yeah, what you have just said is what I was thinking about just to stop the network layer with some predictable network layer which can be managed by some process wire messages according to some time intervals or something like that. Yeah, so it needs to be done. Also about these fluctuations, I don't know. I've been watching like, do we have like the stable time intervals on the, I don't know, on the Robston, for example, the block time intervals? What about the block time interval? Are they like stable on the Robston? I mean, is it like really, I mean, more like stable in terms of the difference between the mean time and... My understanding is it kind of depends on the day and who's mining on it. But I would suppose more stable than what you were doing locally. Yeah, we'll see. Okay, so I guess we can move on. Can we... Given that CLEAK still uses total difficulty, can this what you've written the anchored on GORLY or CLEAK network relatively easily? Interesting thought. Because if so, that would give you good block time. Right. It probably is worth considering if that can be ported pretty easily. I think because it uses total difficulty it should be able to be, just because we do have some test maps we will want to work off of GORLY. The one catch with predictability on GORLY is that an in-turn block gets a difficulty of two and an out-of-turn one gets a difficulty of one. There's a lot of out-of-turn blocks, so you're kind of having or doubling your difficulty a lot. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, thanks Thomas on the information on their Robston, let's see. So it was very in mind and get back to this question a little bit later on how to check the predictability. And yeah, this historical data on difficulties could be pretty valuable. Cool. Okay. Any other implementation updates that anyone wants to share anything? Yeah, I think primarily London and Altair. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. London and Altair. Okay. Let's go to research updates. A couple of PRs that have been announced on the previous call, which are the cleanups in the big constraints back by Justin and Ed and Randall failed to the execution payload. They have been merged. So cool. Also, I've been like a bit looking into the current implementation of consensus. Jason, RPC, Mishir, the doc. This is rather a problem statement. Then the particular proposal on how this consensus API should look like. I've got a 403 forbidden on that doc if you can open it up. Oh, sorry. Really? Let me open them up right now. Yeah. Now it should work. Yeah, I'm in. So let me give you a bit of a context on that. We have the consensus Jason RPC implementation, which we used for Arianism and it worked well for the purpose of Arianism and it could probably work well in production. But some of us were suspicious about that. That is production-ready thing. And here is a few arguments contributing to this. Okay. So just, yeah. The main question here is if we go with the Jason RPC-based consensus API, which has some restrictions and which lays some restrictions on the use cases, we might probably want to replace it at some point in time in the future. So the main question I would ask and the main question that this document states is that whether we are ready to develop something, some new communication protocol before the merge or should we take an easy path right now and think about it and do it later? So that's the main question. I can go through the problems just briefly that I have found in the current implementation and the design. And before that I would say whatever does actually get implemented is probably likely to be very sticky in terms of difficult to replace once it's in production. So I would, I haven't read through this document, but if there are actually problems I suggest we fix them soon. Micah has his hands up. Yeah, that's Micah. Just a quick question. Did we answer the question from a few meetings ago as to whether this needs bi-directional communication or unidirectional? Like, is it always request from one end to the other end with response going to the other direction or sometimes does the other end need to initiate? I see and this document denotes some cases where the bi-directional communication is needed or highly desirable. So yeah, this is one of the also design considerations. Right, so we use the, sorry? Sorry, go on. Yes, please go ahead. Yeah, I mean the only other, or not the only, another big question to answer is whether we want to go to rest instead since that's what the new clients use. Right, and okay, there isn't like subtopic in this document also. Okay, let me just go to the problems and yeah, I'm not, I don't think we will come to any conclusion or any solution at this call and this is just a thought for the next calls and next meetings. Okay, so the first, the first problem with the existing protocol will lack, we seem to lack, one of the messages that will tell the execution client that the beacon block, the consensus of this beacon block is valid, is validated, which is obviously required because if the execution payload of invalid beacon block will be stored and served through the users chasing RPC to believe there's some bugs in the services and software. So we need this message, we need this explicit message because we also have a set head message that tells what is the head of the chain, but not every block is, becomes the head of the chain after it gets imported. So we need a separate message to signify that consensus is valid. So essentially a commit after initial processing. Right, so it will look like the new payload is sent to the execution client, it's being processed and while it's being processed, it will receive this new type of message that the beacon block, the consensus block of this payload is valid or is invalid then, the payload will be either discarded or persisted after the processing. Yeah, the next thing is we will, we have like several messages that are causally dependent like a new block, like new payload and the set head and this new type of consensus process process message. So, and current protocol relies on the assumption that all causally dependent messages will be, the order of all causally dependent messages will be preserved on the consensus side and on the execution client side. So they will, they need to be pipelined, which is like, which is just bug prone. So we might want to reduce, we might want to just release this assumption to get rid of it. And in order to do this, we will have to, this like execution client will have to store some state of the messages received from the consensus client, like if it's received the new payload, it can then receive this set head or consensus process messages and the order of these messages will will not be preserved, then it can gather it and gather this whole information in this kind of state in this kind of cache and then decide what to do with the payload. So this is one of the things. Also, the next one is HTTP overhead, which requires the new connection each time the request is being sent. Also, we can't do asynchronous communication with HTTP only. We can do this with some kind of techniques that allows for this. So we might want to use something like WebSockets, which opens a way to bi-directional communication. And like the last use case, it's a failure recovery. Let's assume that the execution client just crashed and it and the consensus client stored, persisted some block while the execution client doesn't have the failure for it for it. So the payload hasn't been persisted. So it starts up and with the and the consensus client will send like the next block, the block which execution client doesn't have a parent for. So and it will and according to the current state of the arts, it will the execution client will have to go to the network to pull the state and to continue the execution, which is suboptimal. We might want to like for more like want to look at more optimized scenarios where like the execution client starts and sends the status message with the head of the chain to the consensus client, then consensus client decides what to do. If this gap is only one or two blocks, it can replay those blocks without making execution client go into the network and so forth. Also and yeah and the last like that was the last use case and the overall thought is would be great to have it extensible. So in the future. So yeah, it would be great to design a protocol that can be extended with new messages with new use cases without need in design and the new protocol because we have some restrictions. That's it. That's it. You said that for the failure recovery, the execution client can go to the consensus client and ask for the last two blocks. Does the consensus client keep? It can send the message and say here is my head and consensus client can decide what to do. It can ignore this message and execution plan will have to go to the network to pull the state or to pull those two blocks. Yeah, that consensus client might store like the last few blocks in memory or something and so you can opportunistically ask, Hey, by the way, do you have this because I know your local? If so, give it to me. If not, I'll go find it myself. Right, right. This this kind of behavior is what could be like more optimal than just going straight to the network. Does. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, it's even if it's these blocks are not stored in the memory. They are stored in the database so they can be replaced. But not the bodies, right? You still have to go to network for the bodies? No, the bodies are also stored. Am I not mistaken? No, I mean, the bodies are certainly in the beacon block. But you could imagine using the execution engine locally to store the bodies you don't redundant to there. But I mean, we already have a state blow problem. This feels like we're doubling that. Is that my incorrect? Like if the client and the execution plan are both storing full blocks, full bodies, then the only difference is just the state, which is only like, you know, a quarter or a third or whatever of our total state blow problem. I guess that at some point, like, beacon block clients will not store blocks beyond the weak subjectivity checkpoint. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, the failure recovery case is one of the cases that depends on bi-directional communications. Also, it could be a sync process. We can, if we need some rich scenarios for state sync, it could also be relied. It could also rely on the bi-directional communications. Right, I think the one thing missing from this document is potentially messages required to communicate during state sync. Yeah, it's been mentioned like in the last section, but just briefly. Okay, gotcha. So just one small comment from me that each HTTP request requires its own connection that is avoidable. There are ways to have persistent HTTP connections. Not sure if every library we are using supports it, but... I see, I see. Okay. Yeah, so we can use BAP sockets, which is already supported by... Yeah, I see. Yeah, but even there's a keep alive in HTTP one header that allows you to keep the connections first until the time is up. Oh, let's see, cool, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Good point. I was thinking about HTTP 2, but it's... Yeah, but why not use WebSockets as they are already supported by clients? I feel like WebSockets is... Like, my gut tells me, given the like the problem you laid out, WebSockets seems like the way to go just because it's easy. Like, yes, you can do HTTP keep alive. I'm not too hard, but people aren't familiar with it. Libraries often don't support it out of the box. You have to, you know, fiddle some bits. WebSockets are just kind of just out of the box. They'll do exactly what you need. They'll give the connection alive. They'll let you know when the connection dies. The connection won't die randomly, like with... Like, you could have a timeout in theory with an HTTP. Just keep alive.  You don't have to run an HTTP server on both clients.  That's how you establish the connection. And then it just runs from there. So maybe you... One last comment from me. HTTP 2 connections are also persistent, but I agree the WebSockets are probably better for our use case. Maybe you mentioned this. This is one of the reasons... Another reason that you might want bi-directional here is async processing of insert block so that the execution layer can tell you once it's done rather than you waiting, right? Yeah, that could be... It can be done with HTTP, like servers and advanced techniques. Or anyway, yep. How long is that expected to take kind of in the worst case scenario? Like, how async is that? How long does it take to process an each one block? Okay, so like 250 milliseconds order of magnitude? Yeah, maybe like the worst as block is sometimes... Yeah, sure. I was wondering if it was like... We have to worry about like HTTP timeouts kicking in at two minutes or something. Yeah, no, I don't think so. So maybe that's not actually a design use case. So, but is Gary's comment correct and that's the primary reason that we want bi-directional? Is the fairly recovery case? Yeah, but potentially other cases that we might not identify this far and, yep, async runners and communication would be implemented with these bi-directional communication channels as well. Also, I don't want to speak about this today, but if we will looking into redesigning the protocol, we might also want to look into encoding, suggesting it also gives an overhead. So it's better to use some binary encoding and then we can ask whether to use SSU or RLP or whatever else. Yeah, I mean, I think that's an important consideration that we already have like two protocols. That's all the same thing, which is basically talking between components. And the more we have, the more we increase the security surface and how it's become tricky. And it's just annoying to write a client. Like if we have WebSockets, JSONRPC, HTTP REST, and maybe GRPC, somebody will soon mention that's a burden for developers, right? Isn't the idea here correctly wrong that we're, this conversation like WebSocket, JSONRPC, or whatever would replace HTTP REST in this client or no? So those are the user-facing APIs, which are defined in that RESTful HTTP, which there's, this is independent of that and should be discussed independent of that, but the fact that that exists in the stack already. Yeah. One question from me about the payload size, wouldn't, it's a question, so I don't know, wouldn't it be even like better to keep it as JSON, but just enable some compression methods than rather than doing binary? Not sure which one would produce smaller payloads. Yeah, also good point. Because we deal with a lot of numbers, binary will almost certainly be smaller just because JSON numbers are gigantic because they're strings. That being said, JSON does compress a lot and you do gain a lot by compressing it. Yeah, we do WebSockets support like something like any, okay, so it could be on top of WebSockets version. Yeah, WebSockets is just bytes on a wire. You can compress WebSockets text messages with JSON. The support in servers was a bit hit and miss, but that was a few years ago. And yeah, it's surprising what you can get away with when you do JSON. Like very surprising. I used to do market data over JSON. Yeah, be careful about discussing modifications to the payload format to something that's kind of opaque if we don't necessarily need it. So I'd want a few numbers before we swap that. Yeah, I mean, the other thing is in the standard API, we've started using the accept header to negotiate content types. So you can get an SSZ formatted block or state, for example. But the default is JSON. And that's really useful to be able to upgrade and say, hey, I support SSZ and I want to save some bandwidth or whatever. Does anyone have an argument against JSON or sorry, against WebSockets here? I see a lot of people saying JSON WebSockets on grids. Anybody disagree with that? I think it's probably a good fit here. The only concern I've had WebSockets in the past is that it doesn't always go through. I've always done WebSockets with a plain HTTP fallback because inevitably you find firewalls and things that just don't do the WebSockets upgrade or kill off the connection regularly. But I don't think that's really a design consideration for us. That's a more public website type stuff. I'd just echo what Jocic said in adding another thing. I think that we should work through the design considerations that Mikhail has placed forth here and at least fully validate that we really need the bi-directional before committing to taking on another protocol. So WebSockets, I believe, are implemented in all clients right now, all major clients. For the JSON RPC endpoint, you can do WebSocket or HTTP. So I don't think, for just the WebSocket part, I don't think we'd be adding any new technology. If we did rest over WebSocket or something new or I guess rest over WebSocket, maybe not quite. Anyways, if we did something new on top of WebSockets, that might be new, but JSON over WebSockets is already new. On the execution engine. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, the execution engine only. Yeah, but libraries that are to implement clients of JSON RPC are supporting WebSockets, I guess. I mean, like WebTreeJ, for example. Kirish, Jocic, do y'all have WebSockets and foundations in on the Nimbus ETH one side? Yeah, we do. I mean, it's not a problem that way really. It's more that it becomes an incredible zoo. All right, so you want to use this beast, right?  Well, it shouldn't have v4. Well, you know. So, Simon, that's six already. And I just ripped them off the top of my head. And that's where the complexity lies. It's just difficult to, or not difficult, it's just a lot for even the user to manage and set up and imagine the firewall rules for everybody and blah, blah, blah. So, I mean, it's not really a question of which libraries are available because there's a ton of them. But each library also brings in its own dependencies, own configuration complexity, the overhead to learn those frameworks, really? Like the ins and outs and the details of WebSockets versus plain HTTP versus rest over HTTP, which has a different framing and so on. Like, that's more of what I'm talking about, like the complexity overhead in general, not whether a library is available or not. I agree with all of those, the latter point you made. For the first point, though, I feel like even if we did HTTP here, you should still be exposing this on a different port than the public facing JSONRPC stuff. So, at least for the firewall stuff, you will need a new port, I believe. Or you should have new. I agree with the latter half of what you said, though, that it does increase complexity just adding another frame. Yep, thanks everyone for your valuable inputs. I guess we should think more about it for making any decision and look forward to the use cases to potential use cases that we might see in the future before we are binding with one or another solution. What can reduce the complexity of design and implementing this protocol is that these two parties that are communicating why this protocol are going to trust each other. So, but I don't think it reduces it significantly. My two cents on Danny's question as to whether we need bi-directional or not. Again, my gut feeling from the conversations I've been overhearing is that there's enough situations where we think it would be valuable, that it feels like eventually we're going to need it. It's one of those things where, sure, you could argue that any of the individual examples, we could get away with not having bi-directional communication, but they'd be a little bit better with bi-directional. But I feel like there's enough of those that my background tells me that eventually that's just going to continue to pile up and you're just going to end up making sacrifice after sacrifice after sacrifice if you don't have that bi-directional communication. And whether that's long lived HTTP or WebSock or whatever, I think that is less, but I do feel like bi-directional is, again, just from what I've been overhearing feels like the right way to go. I guess the question here is, isn't kind of the future that the execution clients becomes more and more minimal in its feature sets? Will more and more just be there for verifying blocks and maybe producing blocks? So I guess I wonder if that is really true. If the long-term isn't different, should users really long-term rely on the ETH1 REST API, for example, to get their data? No, I mean, they should use one API and that's probably the ETH2 API because that's the only one that can get your consensus.  And I guess a lot of services are using it. It will not be easy to replace one with another or to move it to another endpoint and another protocol. I mean, I think we'll just have to do it long-term because if we don't do it, then it will always be like, I mean, it's always going to be pretty weird. Why do I, do you really think in the long-term users will want to install like two separate pieces of software, configure them and so on? Like one of them should be really, really minimal in my opinion and be more like a library. What I've envisioned, which I know not everybody agrees with, is that over time, many years, we will probably move into more pieces, not less, but they will become packaged better. And so from an end user's perspective, you double-click the installer or whatever and it installs three pieces of software, like three services on your host.  But there's three pieces of software and one of those pieces is basically like reverse proxy. It's just a thing that you connect to as a user and then that connects to the two backend pieces. This would be the more traditional architecture and I think packaging matters a lot there. Like we do want it to package into a single double-click for users, but for more enterprise-focused customers, they will benefit from having those individual services that they can talk to separately. Yeah, I agree. I guess I disagree in that I don't see why, except for compatibility reasons, you'd want to talk to the ETH1 client directly in the future because you care about, not about some random state, you always care about relevant state as an inconsensist state when you ask questions about Ethereum. And so it doesn't make much sense to me in the future to ask the ETH1 client, except if that's the only thing you can do because you have been written before this existed. And so I think the primary reason I would want to do that is because each client has different feature sets that are added on beyond the base feature set.  And because it's not a standard feature, you can't access it through the client. You need to go directly to your client because it's added a special feature just for you. Or another mind, for example, has plugins. And so I can write a plugin for another mind. The client does nothing about that. And so if I want to talk to other minds, I have to go directly to it. Yeah, and the execution engine does know what the head is. So for many of the things that you do on a query, it does have an idea of consensus in that sense. But again, I want you to package this up nicely and have just kind of a standard proxy to get to it all. I think the common end user doesn't really have to think about it. Yeah, right. So every execution client will be accompanied with consensus client, which is, which is this through and by. Yeah, also for this use case is probably where we need the consensus data as well. So it could be like the unified vocate that can request data from the consensus and combine them with the data from the execution clients. Potentially, this is one of potential design solutions here and then get back it with this data to the user. So it will be one interface. It will does all the things. Okay, so let's stop here. Thanks everyone for this discussion. Do we have any other research updates? Let's move to the plans for Q3. This is the first day of Q3. I think it's worse. Like Shera said, like speak about plans for a little bit because we're expecting London in a month. We're expecting Altair in a couple of months, right? Or something like that. And with all this in mind, we're expecting more focus on the merge during this quota and regarding the plans for this quota, we have, okay, so far we have like beacon chain or consensus specs are in the feature complete state. So definitely there will be some refinance bug fixes and some additions like on the networks back and if the API changed as well, but in general, we have the design, we have the transition process so far. And it makes sense for Q3 to focus on the execution clients specs on the EIP, so on the consensus API. That's what we are going to do in this quota. Also, it would be great, I think we will have the more test nets coming in the second part of this quota. So that's the high level overview on the plans. Yeah, I think. Yeah, the consensus specs will also rebase on Altair relatively soon and also integrate London changes the execution payload, which I think would include something related to 1559. And also figuring out standard how we're going to be testing. I think we already have consensus side test vectors being generated. We'll be extending that and then figuring out how the execution layer leverages the existing tests and extends them in this new context. I think that's something important to figure out in Q3. Yeah, they'll agree. We need that. By default, all the EVM stuff should just continue and they should operate independently, but I think we just need to kind of touch it and make sure that we're happy with the way things are structured. Also, at some point, we're going to stop making the separate merge calls. Probably we'll have one or two after this one and then we'll keep discussing merge during the all core devs and the proof of stake consensus call, depending on the part, which has been discussed, which is going to be discussed. So that's all the plans. Mika and I've been working on a check, like very high level checklist of all the things that we'll share soon and probably put in the PM repo. Okay, any questions or suggestions to the plans? Any spec discussions? Okay, any other discussions? Does anybody want to say anything else before we wrap up? Okay, thanks, everyone. See you on the different places soon. I will not make the next call, the proof of stake call. So I'll see you. Thanks everyone for coming. Thank you. Bye bye. Okay, thanks everyone. Thank you. Hey Danny, is it possible you already leave? I was wondering if it's possible to have the same Zoom server for both calls since they're back to back. Just to be a little more convenient. Okay, actually, this is like a link provided by us, so it goes in there and they'll call that Danny manages, it is from a game foundation. So they may have different links. It's not a huge deal if it's complicated or hard, just it would be convenient. Right, this call will be deprecated soon anyway, so one or two. Okay, I do have the new link I believe Danny sent in the morning email today. So I will thank you Michael. Okay, thanks. Bye bye. Thank you. See you later.