I'm the Comic Weekly Man, the Jolly Comic Weekly Man. And I'm here to read the funnies to you, happy boys and honnies. Yes, boys and girls, it's comic weekly time.  Right out of the pages, I've poked the Comic Weekly straight into your living room. Your friend, the Comic Weekly Man, the Jolly Comic Weekly Man. Little Miss Honey, how are you today? Oh, I'm just yesterday. Well, who are you anxious about now? I'm very anxious about he was to go live with a nice old lady on a farm. But when he got there, he found out that there was a younger woman who was pretending to be an old lady. That's right. And I'm wondering, is this young lady who's pretending to be the old lady a crook? Do something terrible to Rusty? Or it will escape before anything bad can happen to him.  Yes. So could we please read the funnies? Poked the Comic Weekly? Very well, I'll read that in just a moment. But before I do, let's listen to this nice man. Now here we go with Poked the Comic Weekly. And on the first page, under bringing up father, Beatle Bailey. Magic words for the music, please. Very well, my lady. Toot me a toot and tweet me tweedle. Squeeze out music for Bailey the Beatle. Outside on the parade grounds, the soldiers are busy marching up and down, practicing their maneuvers. But Beatle has gotten into trouble again. And he's been sent to the kitchen to do kitchen police. And today, we find him and his friend, Carrot, busy peeling potatoes, Beatle's size. I wish they gave medals for being on KP.  Carrot stands up and snaps to attention. He holds out a leaf of a tree. Private Bailey, I am proud to present you with his oak leaf cluster. And who are you supposed to be? At that moment, a butterfly lands on Carrot's shoulder. I'm a butterfly colonel, whereupon Beatle joins the game, snaps to attention, looks at the potatoes, and says, troops. And Sean, the colonel is ready to inspect. And Beatle holds up one potato and shouts, eyes front.  Hmm, now put it back. You're looking punchy up here. First picture, bottom row, Beatle shouts, attention to orders. You're on a form today will be jackets. I have spoken. By this time, Carrot thoroughly carried away shouts, passing a fuel.  At that moment, the sergeant who has heard the shouting approaches. OK, OK, you guys, pipe down and get back to work. Whereupon Carrot grabs the sergeant's tie and roars back. Watch this, insubordination. And the sergeant goes, what? And last picture, Beatle and Carrot are beside a stack of potatoes twice as high. And they peel away and peel away. Beatle looks at all the potatoes and sighs. It was insubordination, all right. And Carrot apologizes, I got carried away. Officers and pretenders as potatoes were soldiers. And Carrot got carried away when the sergeant came up and he grabbed his tie and yelled, quatsition. Insubordination. And he was the one who was guilty of it. That was subordination? Well, insubordination is when somebody rises up against the authorities who are over him. Oh, then Carrot did a terrible thing. Oh, yes, something that'll cause him a lot of trouble. Well, now let's see what Donald Duck is doing. Oh, yes, because I just love Donald. Very well then, let's turn over the page, go past little iodine, past Prince Val, who's on page three, and who's making a trip into dangerous territory today. Turn over that page. And here we are on page four with Donald Duck. Say the magic words with me. Squeeze them, squeeze them, squeeze them, squeeze the jack. Let's have music to feel it, quack, quack. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. It's three o'clock in the morning and Donald is sound asleep. He snores away when all of a sudden his alarm clock rings. And his nephew, Dewey, trots into Donald's room, shakes Uncle Donald. Hey, wake up, Uncle Donald. This is the day we're going hunting. And Donald wakes up, climbs out of bed, and second picture picks up a sheet of paper with a schedule written on it. And he says to his three nephews who are lined up before him. OK, synchronize your watches. OK, it's 3 o'clock. Now, first, get dressed.  OK, boys, report in. Dewey says. I have the gun and ammunition. Jack. Last picture top row, Huey says. And I have the blankets and the hot water bottles. Jack. First picture bottom row, Louie says. And I have the coffee and the food. OK, let's go. Half hour later, they're buzzing along a country road. Dewey looks at his watch. Wait one minute and six seconds behind schedule, Uncle Donald. Don't worry. We'll be on the lake ready to blast by shooting time. 15 minutes later, they're around the lake, rowing to the spot where they're going to do their shooting. Dewey looks at his watch again. 10 minutes to sunrise, Uncle Donald. Don't worry. We'll make it. Finally, the boat comes to a stop. Donald looks at his watch. Three minutes to sunrise and shooting time. Laughing off. They drop the anchor. Now, we'll wait for the ducks to come in. And for you, boy, we'll blast them. 15 minutes later, the sun is almost up. The ducks fly in. But instead of blasting away, Donald and his nephews are sound asleep. And they snore. And the wild ducks go. Operation working out the schedule and everything. Ian and his nephews are so tired that they sound asleep. And Ian got some hunters. He has some hunters. Well, now look across the page. Oh, there's Peter Pan. Yes, Peter Pan. And last week, Peter and Captain Hook were fighting on the edge of a cliff. And Captain Hook's foot slipped, and he fell over the cliff. But his hook caught on a rock, and there he hung in the air. And then the cracker ball that wants to eat Captain Hook came up out of the water and that scared Captain Hook. I will hold up. Well, let's read now and find out. Here we go with Peter Pan. Say the magic words with me. Pirates, crocodiles, Peter Pan. Whisk up music for Never Never Land. As the crocodile who has swallowed the alarm clock opens his mouth, Hook hears the menacing sound. He looks down and shrieks. No, no, no, no. And then his hook gives way. And he falls toward the open mouth of the crocodile. Don't! He two punch on the water below. They disappear from sight. Peter and Wendy wonder what's going on in the water below. And then the crocodile's head appears again. There, third picture top row is Captain Hook his arms and legs wrapped around the crocodile's mouth holding it closed. Sme, the captain's man, rose toward him and shouts, Stay right where you are, Captain. I'll save you. At that moment, the crocodile makes a super crocodile effort, pulls his jaws open, and sends Hook flying in the air. No! As Hook comes flying down, the crocodile snaps his jaws shut on Hook's cork tails. Hook leaps for the boat, quick, Captain. Lands in the boat. Role for the ship, Sme. Role for the ship. Sme rolls for the ship, where the crocodile in hot pursuit. And as they disappear, Peter laughs. The codfish got away. And then suddenly, Wendy exclaims, Peter, what about Tiger Lily? Peter looks around at Tiger Lily, the Indian chief's daughter, whom Hook had left on a rock in the water. He sees the tide is coming in, and now the water is up around Tiger Lily's throat. Peter dives for her. Hey, Tiger Lily! Oh, Tiger Lily! Let's hope he makes it. I'm sure he will. Yes, but we'll find out about that next week. And maybe we'll see whether Captain Hook made his escape from the crocodile. Now let's turn over the page. And look, on page seven, there's Flash Gordon. Oh, yes, Flash Gordon. And you remember that Flash was on the moon, where he had to land when he had trouble with his rocket ship. Yes, and there he found a beautiful woman named Dr. Stella and her assistant, a man named Mark. Yes, but they were crooks, and they caused Flash a lot of trouble.  And Mark was going to try to rob that ship. Yes, and then Flash would be blamed for it because it was Flash's ship that Mark was using. I wonder if he could have a way with it. Well, let's read now and find out. Here we go with Flash Gordon. The regga-dega-doon-doon-sask-a-matage. Let's have music for heroic Flash. From their lair behind the moon, the space bandits Mark and Dr. Stella used Flash's stolen rocket to hijack a richly laden freighter from Earth. Pulling alongside the cargo craft, Mark orders it to land. When his command is ignored, the ruthless space pirate launches a guided missile at his quarry. There's a terrific roar as the shot strikes home in the crew's headquarters. Back at the moon station, Flash swiftly takes advantage of the opportunity offered by Mark's absence. From a locker, Flash takes three space suits. And as he and his friends Dale and Zarkov down them, he explains, now listen, we're up against overwhelming numbers, but I have a scheme. Flash's plan is simple but dangerous. With his rocket pistol, he blasts open a viewport. The pressurized air pours out of the station into empty space. The pirate guards, realizing the air has escaped, become panicky. They know they can't live without air. Some of them frantically try to put on space suits. Others vainly struggle to seal the leaking viewport. First picture, bottom row. Before the stunned space outlaws know what's happened to them, Flash brushes past them and forces open the hatch that leads to the sealed underground laboratory. A sudden onrush of air proves that someone is inside, keeping up emergency pressure in this last ditch hideout. A glance shows Flash that the sole occupant of the laboratory is the pirate queen Stella. Huddled in a corner, weak from the sudden loss of air, she summons her waning strength to fire her blast gun as Flash's form is silhouetted in the hatchway. But her aim is unsteady and the shot goes wild. Last picture, Flash picks up the suffocating queen. Dale arrives on the scene. Flash orders, quick, tell Zarkov to stand guard. I'll take Stella into the airlock. Unless she gets oxygen in a hurry, she's doomed. Dr. Stella, now he's the boss. Yes, it looks like he is. He's unconscious, and at the moment, Flash is the boss. That was smiting room. Yes, because his suit manufactures oxygen so he can breathe. Yes, but the others can't when they don't have their space suits on, can they? No, they can't. Well, I wonder if Flash will capture Mark and the others when they return to the rocket ship. That's something we'll find out next week. Now let's turn over the page and see who's there. All right. Oh, look, there's Dick's adventures on the last page of the first section. And I'll read that in just a moment. But first, here's that nice man again with something interesting to say. Now here we go again with Puck the Comic Weekly. And on the last page of the first section, Dick's adventures. Magic words for the music, please. Say them will me, please. Riggily-pack-a-zack-a-zick. Let's say music for adventure to stick. Dick is dreaming that he's in the early days of America in the territory of Texas. At this time, Texas still belonged to Mexico. Dick is with his friend Jim Bowie, who has been working to secure Texas freedom from Mexico. He and Dick have been pursued by Mexican soldiers. When their escape was cut off, they dashed into the old city hall and made their way to the bell tower. They're only safe there for a short time before they hear the sound of a battering around below. When Dick looks over the edge of the tower, he sees the Mexican soldiers with a huge timber battering against the door. And the door gives way, and the soldiers burst in. Last picture, second row, the soldiers search in the half darkness of the building, looking for the two Texas rebels. And then one of them sees the stairway. And in a second, the soldiers are heading for the tower. First picture, second row, Dick, who is looking down the stairs, exclaims, Jim, they're coming up. For a second, it looks as if Jim and Dick are trapped. But then suddenly, Jim exclaims, Hey, Dick, the bell. And he springs to the cradle on which the bell hangs. But quick, Dick, pull. Let's rip it loose. Desperation gives them strength with all their might they lift. And the bell slips off its frame. For a second, it is poised on the edge of the staircase. Already, the soldiers are swarming up. Bowie shouts, here we are. We're coming down. And he gives the bell a push. And it roars down the staircase onto the soldiers below. Ah! Oh, no way! There's another one! First picture, third row, the fantastic weapon clangs down in terrifying destruction, knocking the soldiers down like 10 pins. Oh, no! Oh, no! I jump across. And then a second later, our rope appears from the bell tower. And in the confusion, Dick and Jim Bowie, last picture, slide down the rope. All right, come on, Dick, fast. And Jim and Dick make their escape. That it was, using the bell the way they did, rolling it down the soldiers? Yes, boss. Was a lucky thing that rope was there for Dick and Jim to slide down? Yes, but I... Yes, so am I. We'll have to wait until next week to find that out. Now, look below Dick's adventures. There's Rusty Riley. Oh, yes, and I'm anxious to see what happens to him because Rusty has come to Denver Dooley's farm. You remember? Yes. Rusty's to have a job on the farm, taking care of Dooley's horses. And he's supposed to live with Dooley's sister. Yes, and Mr. Dooley said that she was an old lady. But instead, when Rusty got out to the farm, he found a young lady who was pretending to be old. And also, there was a man there who was pretending to be the hired man. But I know he's up to some crooked scheme and he's planning something against Rusty. I wonder what this is all about. Well, let's read now and see if we can see what this is all about. Here we go with Rusty Riley. Gallop and run till the road is dusty. Give us music for his horse and Rusty. Rusty's been taken to his room by the lady downstairs, and he says to himself, he sure is a nice place to live. Miss Dooley's real swell, but... Mr. Dooley said she was his older sister. And the man at the station said she was a nice old lady, but gee, Miss Dooley looks young enough to be Mr. Dooley's daughter. And then he tries the radio, but it doesn't work. He thinks the antenna needs fixing. So he tries to get on the roof by way of the attic. But fourth picture top row, he finds the door to the attic locked. Collie's a big heavy lock on this door. I guess they must keep a lot of valuable stuff up in the attic. Last picture top row, he says to himself, oh, well, I'll ask Miss Dooley later if I can go up there. Right now, I'll go look at the horses I'm supposed to take care of. First picture bottom row, Rusty comes into the barn, takes one look at the horses and exclaims, Sheepers, they're poor things. They're in awful shape. He looks for feed right away. Those poor horses are half-starved. They haven't been brushed down in months. I hope I can find some oats. Oh, shucks, the feed bin's empty. Just then the barn door opens and in comes Mel, the suspicious character who's pretending to be the hired man. Oh, hello, Mel, I was just going to look for you. The horses need feed. They're in awful bad shape. Isn't there any feed? Mel's stammer's, well, they've been sick. The feed man didn't show up, and wait here, I'll speak to Miss Dooley. Last picture, Mel is in the house talking to the girl who's pretending to be Miss Dooley. And listen, Trixie, that kid knows too much about horses. They gotta have feed. He's likely to tell Dooley, we gotta spend a few bucks. Trixie answers, oh, all right. No need to make any commotion of it. It's a way to get another check cashed. Yes, it is. You should never treat animals that way. Tie them up and then not bring them food or water. No, because the poor animals can't help themselves.  I feel the same way. I wonder, I wonder what... Well, maybe... I wonder if they're holding a prisoner someplace. I suppose that Mel and Trixie are a couple of robbers who are hiding away there. Well, we'll find out more about that next week. Now it's time to go to the second section. Oh, yes, and here's Dagwit. Here's Dagwit on the first page of the second section of Puck the Comic Weekly. And here we go with Dagwit and Blondie. Ram-a-foo, ram-a-fum, zim-zam-zombie, conjume music for Dagwit and Blondie. Blondie and her neighbor, Tutsi Woodley, are standing out by the back fence talking. I'm trying to figure out what to cook for supper tonight. Yes, it is a problem, isn't it?  Hey, Pop, will you watch my bike for me while I change my clothes? Oh, sure, son. Moment later, last picture top row, Blondie and Tutsi are still talking about plans for supper. I can't give him chicken croquettes. He doesn't like that. Suddenly, Dagwit comes whizzing toward them on a bicycle. Don't look. He's just showing off. And Dagwit whizzes out of sight. Blondie leans back against the fence first picture, second row. It's too late to start a stew. Tutsi throws up her hands in resignation. Honestly, sometimes I think there's nothing left to cook. And then, Herb comes whizzing toward them on the bicycle. He's standing on the seat on one foot, holding the other high in the air. Hey, look at this! The girls pay no attention to him. And Herb sails out of sight. First picture, third row, Blondie says. I wouldn't dare give Dagwit fish again. We've had it three nights in a row. Oh, yes, I forgot. Mr.  And then the bicycle appears again. This time, Dagwit and Herb are both riding it. Dagwit is sitting backwards on the handlebars and Herb is upside down, standing on his head on the seat. Yippee! Don't look. The girls turn their backs on the boys and the bicycle goes fast. Why, we should be on the circus! Last picture, third row, Blondie says. Let's see, what else is there? Chops, steak, sparrows, and sauerkraut. Bank food and beans are nice for a change. When suddenly, there is a... Hey, what are you doing? Oh, what's wrong with you? The girls dash around the corner. Second picture, bottom row, they see Herb and Dagwit lying in the ground under a fish cart. And they're surrounded by fish. And the fish peddler shouts, pay me for every water these fish are like gold.  And Blondie says, Well, anyway, we know what we're going to have for supper.  Yes, I'm afraid their enthusiasm carried them too far. Yes, it carried them. And into another fish dinner. Yes. Well, let's turn over the page now and see who we find. Let's go past the Lone Ranger on page 2. And there on page 3 under Snuffy Smith is Roy Rogers. Oh, yes, last week. Yes, the cattlemen are trying to drive some farmers named Trent out of the country. And the cattlemen rode to the Trent farm and shot their horses and cows and all the animals last week, you remember? Yes, and one of these cattlemen was dressed just like Scarecrow Katie, a nice old man. And so the Trents think that he is to blame for all their trouble, but he's not. But the Trents have been trying to catch Scarecrow Katie and so far, Roy has prevented them. But last week in the fire with the Trents, Roy got knocked subconscious. I wonder what will happen next. Yes, Roy was knocked unconscious. So let's see what happens. Here we go with Roy Rogers, king of the cowboys. Ah, yippee-yoh. Now here we go with Roy and Trigger. Ah, yippee-yoh. Hug Trent in his father, stand over Roy's unconscious body and then a man gallops up.  Hurry and we can pick up the trail. Quickly the Trents and their friends mount up. Hurry, come on, Pog, let's go! As soon as the Trents have disappeared, Katie's daughter, Oriole, appears some out of the brush behind the building. She thanks Roy for helping her escape from the Trents. Roy gets to his feet, mounts Trigger, last picture top row. After I make sure you safely reach your father's hideaway, Miss Katie, I aim to find out why he's blamed for leading the war on the valley nesters. Meanwhile, first picture bottom row at a cabin in a nearby ranch. A man who is wearing clothes that look exactly like Scarecrow Katie is undressing. A cattleman enters. Hey, hide them clothes, good snapper.  Ah, relax, Pete. Then Snapper takes a map out of his pocket and pointing to it, he says, Soon as we run the Trents out, we tear down their blasted fences so our steers can use their water hose. A little savvy? Yeah, sure. And that poor old local Katie Humberie gets to blame. Yeah, pretty slick. A short time later, at Scarecrow Katie's hiding place, the sound of horses hoops floats through the air for the old man's ears. Quickly, he unloosens the falcon. A bird he is trained for hunting. I hear somebody coming, black lady. He beats anybody but my daughter. Don't let him reach you. Now fly. Last picture, Roy and Oriole are riding up the trail toward Katie's hiding place. Suddenly, the bird swoops out of the air. Straight for Roy, it dies. The girl shrieks. Roy, watch out, that's daddy's trained falcon. He'll claw your eyes out. Look at those sharp claws. Ooh, hey, where are they, Roy? Well, that's something I'm afraid we'll have to wait until next week to find out. Now, that's all the time I have. But before I go, here's that nice fella with some more interesting information. All right, Mr. Weekly. Okay, that's a date.  Be sure to meet me with our little friend Miss Honey next week when I read Puck the Comic Weekly. For I'm the Comic Weekly man, the Jolly Comic Weekly man. I'll be back to read the funnies to you happy boys and honeys. Don't forget, boys and girls, see you all next week. Your friend the Comic Weekly man, the Jolly Comic Weekly man.


Hello to you our lovely patrons and welcome to another edition of the Agile pubcast's prestigious pint series Raise my glass to you. You can see that Today Paul and I are chatting to two Dutchmen Barry Overeem and Christian of the vice From Holland and they are known as the liberators So a lot of you will probably come across their work in one way or another over the years They've been instrumental in bringing things like liberating structures more into the agile world To make meetings a lot less painful a lot more fluid They've also authored the zombie scrum survival guide, which is quite difficult to say but but very easy to read and Barry himself is also a bit contributed to the curriculum of the scrum.org pathway So our paths across a lot over the years and I know a lot of people that I know and Paul knows Requested that we we interviewed them for the prestigious pint series It was a really good conversation flowed very naturally and yeah, we talked a lot about liberating structures and also Partly because I was interested in it scientific experimentation So yeah, enjoy and we will see you all soon for another episode. Cheers. Cheers Well slightly earlier opening of the bar today Paul Very early Jeff. It's not very early Well, I feel guilty from I do the look I got from my wife when I took a can of cider out the fridge Technically technically we're in the Netherlands today. We're on European time. Can we say that? Yeah? Yeah, so this is it's almost five o'clock If we're rounding up, it's five o'clock. Yeah. Yeah The Sun is past the yard on So yeah, we've got we've got two guests with us today in the Netherlands Are you both in the same part of the Netherlands Barry Christian? roughly roughly Left in the city Utrecht and I live in the province Utrecht. So it's close enough. Okay. Yeah, yeah, 30-minute drive Between us cool. So, yeah, Barry Overeem. Have I pronounced that right? Yeah? Christian device Perfect. Very good. Yeah, very good. Very good. You're very Dutch. That's good I do I do practice the Dutch accent a lot at home, but so I won't do that online So what what can we get you to drink gentlemen? Oh, yeah, so like I already told you this is very boring It's like it's a pint of water or it's not vodka. Is it I've got it looks like vodka Yeah, no, either way, whatever is in there. We don't judge. We're a non-judge mental Social distance in and Christian. Yeah, I'll have a ginger beer Actually, I got one that says that it's from England But I think it's just a marketing department that decided that but it's it's a good ginger beer So very good. I do like beer, but this is different for once. That's alright. I've gone I've gone fairly standard Stock-sided today Jeff first one. I pulled out the fridge can of Stoford press. Yeah, they'll faithful I do like a cat. I do like a Stoford So did my local pub Here if it's your cider tastes like apples Jeff. Well Okay, well, I'm not going standard. Oh, I'm going for homemade The engineers dark side That sounds really good. Yeah, this is a home brew. It's a 6% dark ale Made by myself. Hope I haven't opened it yet. This is the first one. I've opened so it didn't explode. That's a good start I'll pour it. It's very curious to hear what it tastes like. It's very dark. Very dark. It is. It's like stout Yes, so this well, it looks like it. It shouldn't taste like it, but we'll see It's with it's got Bo to see a hops in it, but it should be dark It should have some kind of vanilla flavor apparently, but we'll see. Oh It does have a slight sweet Roll jealous now Yeah, it's nothing like a stout It's room temperature. Obviously that's that's why I've kept it but it is it's it's not it's quite It has a sort of texture of an ale rather than a stout.   So I haven't yet got into making my own malts So I will I will get my own malt from a shop, but I will mess around with with hops And I try different sugars as well. So this I actually put Brown sugar in rather than White glucose. Yeah, that's mainly because I lost the glucose. I don't know where it went It was kind of an innovation improvisation through necessity, but yeah, it worked absolutely fine. So that's that's nice I was a little bit I didn't know how this one was going to turn out. So And where can I or listeners get it if we want to order it is it available somewhere? Well, I don't have a license to sell Alcohol so I can't do that But I have been known to give out gifts to people And so you never know with Christmas coming up So Christian given your enthusiasm about beer is brewing your own beer on your bucket list as well Or I would love to but I don't you have to be super clean And I always respect people who are able to pull it off Especially as a beer like you just described Jeff from what I've heard. That's very hard to get right taste-wise So I would love to but too hard for me. I think I'm not clean enough for it Mm-hmm sterilizing agent. Did you underestimate how much sterilizer you need? Like buckets full and you have to keep cleaning stuff. Don't you everything has to be spotless, doesn't it? Yeah, I don't you mean Yeah, so that's whenever I go into the the local shop that sells the homebrew kits He always says and have you got enough sterilizer? Something he says every time do everybody. I've currently got two buckets of the stuff But yeah, it's it's nice to be clean But especially if you're going to be offering it to other people sure But I'd encourage you to give it a go. I think it's a it's a good especially if you're doing it yourself It's it's an inspect and adapting right? I may dabble with it at one point because I really a lot of friends of mine are doing it too Another thing I've been experimenting with recently actually, but I don't know whether this translates scotch eggs What is that? What is it? Scotch egg Paul knows what's got you it's in England. It's quite a good pub snack really basically it's a it's a boiled egg Mm-hmm, and then there's a coating of sausage meat and Then a coating of breadcrumbs. Oh Which is deep-fried I believe and it is deep-fried, but then baked as well So I've been experimenting with it So I've made some chorizo scotch eggs and I've been using different types of breadcrumbs panko breadcrumbs and things Just just trying lots of different things and experimenting and getting some feedback and Yeah, I get the impression Jeff you're actually running up running a pub And you're just telling me you've diversified and you actually that that shed that you're in now is actually a fully licensed bar Well, I think it's good to have options Diversify your portfolio, but we should we should properly introduce properly we should introduce our guests Barry and Christian who we will we will explore why but are known as the liberators from Holland the Netherlands Dutch land as Paul calls it And yeah, so I've known Barry for a while Christian for not quite as long through various means of The the liberating structures that they promote the zombie some survival guy. What used to be called the scrum Scrum team survey, but it's now called something else. I've got the wrong way around Yeah, it's now the scrum team survey and it was the zombie scrum survey. Yeah got you and also Barry and I collaborated a few years ago with regards to Curriculum between scrum alliance and scrum the org around the advanced trauma acidification So no each other for quite a while, but welcome. Thank you for joining us We're super glad to be here. It's a pleasure And I guess that that would be a good place to start. Why do you call yourself the liberators? I'm up with the name so This is No, it's a great name, but it's I it was very hard to come up with the name and very headed all of a sudden Yeah, we did it one wanted to have something boring like this this cliche Name, so we're looking for something that already sets the expectations sets the tone about If an organization or a team starts to collaborate with us what they can expect I think the liberator some I'm not sure. Yeah, it also describes what we want to achieve like liberate teams liberate organizations from outdated modes of working outdated modes of collaborating with with each other And liberate them in such a way that they can unleash their superpowers And we believe that each team has Superpowers that need to be brought to the surface and for some teams, it's quite easy the You just need to scratch the surface and you'll see Superpowers appear well and some teams you need to do a bit more work They were able to hide them quite well And how long have you and christian been working together? How long has this partnership been been in place? I think chris four years now four or five years. Yeah, and we started the liberators three years ago So a year before that we were just working together as freelancers I'm very started as a freelancer. I'd already been freelancing for a few years and We sort of connected because we have a similar style of writing. I think we connected mostly on the writing on the blogging And and from there on we started working together. It was a lot of fun And it still is by the way. Yeah Important to mention that. Yeah So teams need liberate are they are they prisoners then our teams captive in your experience more often than not I think we we both think so and And I won't say most teams but sometimes What we always like to do is when we enter an organization or visit it or talk to people from an organization Sort of to get a sense of what are the things that you're smelling when when you go into the office building or into the team room And that's that's not literal, right? Because we've used the term scrum smells before that those things that just don't seem quite right But you're not actually talking about what hang things actually smell, right? No, no, no not literal smells but more like what are the cultural smells or the things that people say or the sense that you're getting of being somewhere And one thing we've both noticed that that there are so many organizations where you have all these smells that radiate low autonomy people don't feel like they control anything like they own anything They're just doing what they're told and well for berry and me our background has always been that we work for organizations where we had a lot of control and a lot of autonomy and In a sense, we do want to help those teams experience that same level of autonomy as as we've done in the past Yeah So yeah, I think we want to liberate teams and many teams can do some help there I do recall an experience that we had at an organization whose name I will not session but when we entered the building they gave us a I'm not sure what the name is something to remove dust Yeah, um A duster. Yeah a duster. Yeah. Yeah, and that was the department that gave it to us because it was more like a symbol that they wanted to have every employee a duster so they could Revitalize their own organization Okay That was an interesting experience for us like okay, there's some work to do over here I'm sure it was Baz Vodder that I'm used to put on his business card something like agile janitor or something like that Yeah, I'm sure it was Baz that used to say that You got a lot of similar smells like I also remember the company with all the dead flowers everywhere In the team room and the the the welcome area.  Yeah, it doesn't tell you something I think so So what was the connection with the liberators was accidental with the liberating structures or was that deliberate? There you want to take this one or shall I do it? Yeah, but I actually not sure if it was accidental I think it was accidental But I think we were quite happy that once we came up with the name the liberators. Um at that time We already uh used liberating structures. Yeah, I think it was more like an extra Benefit that it's quite easy that Yeah, the connection with the operating structures is easy to make Sometimes people approach us because they think that we created liberating structures I think sometimes we have done a bit too much promotion and created too much content about liberating structures But just to also to clarify that one we did not Henry Lepmanovich and Keith McGandals those two awesome people they co-created and co-developed liberating structures And we're just a two humble guys from the Netherlands that learned a lot from them. I'm just very passionate and enthusiastic about it Yeah We have yeah, we but we we still do by the way, which is incredibly Awesome because Keith and Henry have so much experience And it's always a pleasure to talk with them and to chat with them We've done immersion workshops with them like about liberating structures But also we hang out with them every now and then on zoom more with Henry at the moment But with Keith also every now and then it's always a lot of fun But yeah, I think the name was accident sort of the connection with the name was accidental But it was also because we were doing a lot with liberating structures at the time But it's it's all it's sometimes a bit confusing for people to be honest. So No, I think it's very good. I think um, that was that was I certainly put those two together straight away thinking when I think of For all for wrong reasons. I when I when I hear about liberating structures Structures and I generally make that association with the two of you straight away Which is which is obviously great working well. So Yeah, keep doing it. What are Keith and Henry's backgrounds? It's not they're not they're not our job people Are they where do they come from? Keith has a lot of has a background in complex complexity science I think he was part of the plexus institute in the united states That's also by the way where he met Henry and the plexus institute is specialized in complexity science So a lot of people in that field were part of that institute are working for it um, and henry limanovich was one of the I think he was a vp for um, what's called a big pharmaceutical in the united states, but I think Yeah, murk. Yeah, he was a vp from murk and um, and um, he actually discovered he noticed there that every time There was a meeting it lacked energy people were not engaged and he wanted to change it But he didn't know how and that's when keith and henry met And keith was already working with this idea for liberating structures and henry thought let's try it at murk And that's what they did. I think 30 years ago or 25 years ago And from there they actually started developing liberating structures So there's quite a rich history actually of of both those two, but also liberating structures It's also interesting that within the plexus institute. Um, that's also where the kind of thing framework, um, was Develled so to say So it's all connected in a way So but but henry and keith have zero backgrounds with agile with scrum And when chris and I met them, they were pretty Overwhelmed with that there's this entire community out there as well And we I think what chris and I did and also of course not not only us but uh, also other people is that made the connection With scrum and liberating structures because we think that the connection makes a lot of sense And that you can get uh, way more efficient with scrum and all the scrum events, etc If you connect them with liberating structures So I haven't I haven't studied the um the evolution of it But it has evolved right there that these practices the 33 or foot however many there are at the moment they've evolved over time and I my my instinct tells me that it's been kind of a A symbiotic relationship the agile world and the liberating structures as well because you see things like open space in there you see things like effectively Effectively pairing in there right the trick you can sort that that kind of thing One two four these things. I don't think they've necessarily come from one space or another it's been a I don't know that emergence so At the risk of um slowing down a bit jeff apologies, okay Is it worth for maybe some of our listeners that perhaps haven't heard of liberating structures before? um barry um, hello christian Can you give us a brief kind of synopsis? What what is what is a liberating structure and how would what would it be used for? Well christ this is something that you can do because i'm terrible like Explaining liberating structures. I think that's also the most difficult thing So if christian is going to pull him off then I have huge respect for him Because liberating structures really is something that you should experience to like talking about liberating structures about uh jeff showing and his his beer and then you're like, yeah, that's a good example Got it. Okay. Tastes very good. Oh, so chris. Yes. Yeah. Well, you you said the expectations Well, I think we always like to describe liberating structures as the antidote to what you normally see when you put a group of people together in an in a meeting room normally you have people sitting around the table and then One person talks for a very long time. Everyone else listens or not even Uh, and then another person starts talking for a very long time, but you don't hear anyone else talking during the meeting um and liberating structures are are very simple alternative ways of organizing interactions between a group of people in such a way that all their voices can actually be included in the conversation and um, there are many liberating structures 33 in total and each structure does this in a different way But with a very specific purpose So for example, you have the liberating structure one two for all and berry Would you be able to explain the steps of one two for all because then we can sort of explain it together Yeah, so one two for all is one of the basic foundational liberating structures Its simplicity is also its strength Because the one two for all is One is one minute individually. So you give a group of people an invitation Something to think about and then they take one minute individually to get their thinking started Afterwards they form pairs and then as a pair they have a conversation About the same invitation for two minutes And then that pair goes on a double date and forms a group of four And then as a group of four they develop new ideas together And then the old part that's the part where if necessary then can then they can share some some of the The the insights that stand out the most with the group as all So you really scale up conversations In such a way but in such a way that everyone has had time to Contribute and to get their own thinking started as well And what you could do is sometimes we explain liberating individual liberating structures as uh lego bricks So one liberating structure is a is a lego brick and one lego brick is already pretty cool But the real magic happens when you start connecting all these lego bricks to each other and then the possibilities are are endless So the real strength of liberating structures becomes visible when you start creating strings Of liberating structures. Got it. Okay, so For the the meeting the workshop the gathering Your birthday party whatever take something in mind Try to identify the purpose that you want to achieve with it And then start playing with all these lego bricks aka liberating structures And try to create a string by which you can achieve that purpose And that's very cool. And that's became sort of the hobby of christian and myself as well And have you each got a favorite?  Um Shall I start chris? But sure go ahead Let me think critical uncertainties without any doubt. So critical uncertainties is about strategy making I'm creating strategies together with the entire group And maybe to make a connection with scrum you can use critical uncertainties to create To create a product strategy and then not one strategy But based on critical and uncertain things that might happen you create multiple strategies So that if one of these uh scenarios becomes a reality Then you already prepare yourself for that happening and then everyone knows what to do Um, that's it. You're gonna get one. Yeah, you only Okay, that's it. Yeah christ would be appreciative interviews. Um, it's a very simple structure basically Everyone finds another partner and they they they share a success story of something that went really well For them personally with one other person that other person then gets time to also share their story But you also they also have to listen carefully to each other and make some notes about what was that success story And what made it possible because in the next round They actually have to retell the success story of their partner to two other people from another pair that joins them And then in that group of four the question is if you've listened to all these success stories retold by the partners What are the factors that are common to all of those stories? And how can we invest as a group in those factors right here right now to make more of those successes possible? And I think that there's just so much good positive psychology going on in that structure It's also one of those things you have to experience appreciative interviews to see how well it works People are always smiling. It feels very good to share a success story It feels even better to hear someone retell your story in their words Everyone's always a bit nervous. Did I say all the right things? Did I repeat it correctly? But everyone's always very positive and the insights that come out of this are always useful. It's a very powerful one. Yeah Yeah, do you think do you think um some these um Can be some some of these are more deliberate than others And what I mean by that is that some some might be more formally facilitated But some of those Liberating structures could you could almost weave in without people appreciating what you're doing? Is that is that fair? I think so. Yeah, I think that well I wouldn't say necessarily that they're not all of them are just as deliberate because all all structures have a very clear purpose But what we like to do Barry and I and we didn't do this initially Is you can do liberating structures without even mentioning it without even saying what you're doing right now Of course, you have to facilitate it But you can still do appreciative interviews without mentioning that that's what you're doing And I think that that makes it even more powerful We did a lot of that in the past where we actually explained we're going to do liberating structures We're going to do this and that but that can also create resistance in groups that are like Why should we do all these things? What is what are all these fancy words that you're using all of a sudden? Right, so that's that's my experience and Barry. I'm curious. What do you think? Liberating structures should never be about liberating structures themselves So I think the only time when we do mention it is during these liberating structures immersion workshops Because that's the purpose of those workshops But otherwise we don't really emphasize it. It's more like let people just experience a liberating structure And if they're curious about what just happens then we might give a brief explanation about the structure that we've used But the pitfall is always to To emphasize it too much and also to be too strict in time boxing and explaining the steps etc. It should be more like help the group Just work naturally certain flow And we had a conversation yesterday Barry didn't we on a simple thing just about scrum in general agile in general just It it's you don't need to mention scrum. You don't need to mention agile any of those You just do some stuff in a facilitative way Yeah, exactly. And it's like you said Chris it's going to be less resistant says less need to worry about all this is a thing This is a this is a technique that someone's trying to no, no, no, no, we're just we're just going to have a facilitate this That's that's that's that's what it is and then it works May I ask Joe from Paul? What is your experience? What did you experience when you participated in a liberating structure? What was it like for you? All right, so it's funny. So I was saying to Paul Only recently that so liberating structure is something that we came across when we did a lot of research into facilitation and collaboration Quite a long time ago and it was something that was one of those things that came in and probably little bits of it seeded into Things that we did and then we probably didn't pay enough Detailed attention to a lot of the stuff and then it came back into our conscience Um, so things like one two four all things like fishbowl Things like that the the trucker consulted they formed part of our facilitation with that That's really probably if i'm being honest giving the credit where it was due um But I if I was to It wasn't your question was it but I was thinking it was only fair thing as I asked you your favorite What my favorite would be? I think my favorite would be 15 percent solutions I think what the part of scrum that I was brought up on that doesn't really seem to get spoken about enough in my opinion These days is the art of the possible So I was always thought that is effective your scrum is is the art of the possible I know inspecting the that bloop and things like that but for me Don't get caught up in what things should be focus on what things could be Um, and that fits very nicely with the other world that I operate in a professional coaching Which is just make some progress forget about the things that you can't control Focus on what you can control right? Yeah, 85 of it. Fine. You you can't affect that. All right, but you can affect the 15 So let's focus on that. And I think it works for product owners. I think it works for development teams I think it works for scrum masters. I think it works for leaders anyone involved I think just that 15 percent just gets that momentum that ball rolling I like that. I like that a lot and I fully agree with it 15 solutions is awesome And we almost always do it at the end Or even halfway when we do a workshop with teams. It's perfect Yeah, maybe one thing to mention and then Paul I'm gonna give it to you So one thing to mention is also the hope that Christian and I have and as Christian actually wrote a blog post about it Which is called top of my mind Liberating structures are not techniques for facilitators, but for users something like that My hope is and that's also a pitfall that we see is that liberating structures are being perceived as something For facilitators and trainers And things that you only use during training and workshops and that's it While the intention is that everywhere where two more than two or three people collaborate with each other interact with each other They benefit from using liberating structures So just in regular day-to-day conversations. You can already use impromptu network And you can already use one-to-four all etc So yeah, my encouragement especially to people listening to this one is just think about any kind of conversation that you'll have today tomorrow next week And just try one or two liberating structures and just go for the basic ones Because yeah, I'm quite sure that once you've tried the basic ones You'll be addicted as well and then you'll start exploring the other ones I think a lot of people actually find that they've used some of them already or certainly been involved with some of them They're not they're not crazy magic No Dark magic or anything like that. They're relatively Normal ways of working. Yeah. Yeah, they're simple They're also intended to be so simple that anyone can use them You don't need to get a license for it or a certificate or go to A very advanced training of any kind. You just read the website It helps if you experience it once or twice with other people and then you can do it Maybe not the super the more difficult ones like critical uncertainties that needs some practice But it's still not incredibly hard to do. So it's easy. Just give it a try And for you Paul, what what was your favorite one? Yeah, well, I think like like Jeff said we've kind of rift on a few of these in the past probably without giving them they're full They're credit where credit is due but I'd probably say the the what so what now what I think is probably that's that's um We've used that as a debrief quite a lot in our exercises that and I know that and it always goes down well because it's it's like you say It's just so simple. It just it's really easy to introduce And it's really easy to do debrief because there's just three simple questions Um, I'm the other one. I which again, I've always experimented with the five ways But I like the idea is nine wise isn't it the but basically you go that stage further again You keep which can be extremely frustrating for people that you're asking those questions to you But yeah, you're basically imitating a small six-year-old Child and just keep asking why until you to get that answer till you get reached the bottom Yeah, so yeah, they're probably the ones that I use the most often. I think really fair that you were able to pick To choose two Yes, see yeah, I'm just a bad product owner Okay, it's fine Well, it's nice that you mentioned product owners. Well, it makes a lot of sense with the both of you, but Especially for product owners. They're so useful to do with stakeholders and It's it's not happening nearly as much as we hope it would be because what we are seeing and and maybe you have a different Perception, but it's mostly scrum masters doing it sort of the in a way the facilitators But I would love to see far more product owners Do something with liberating structures and Yeah, all the power to them Use mean specs to have a critical look at your product backlog and see what's left after you've used mean specs Yeah, well, why do you think that is what in terms of the exposure? Is it mainly like you said Barry because it's been seen as this facilitation toolkit? Is it does it need to be Do we need to change our attack with that? Do we need to push it in a different direction to get more product owners involved? You think That's a good one I'm not sure actually why why that is could also just be because in general maybe scrum masters, edger coaches, facilitators might be just I don't know more For them it might be more convenient to try this kind of stuff It could also be that product owners are interested, but then they give their scrum master a call and say hey Have a look at this and let me know if it's Read that and let me know if it applies. Do I have a theory? Yeah, sure go ahead and and that is that since the the role of the scrum master was was brought in Facilitation was an explicit part of the role But the product owner has always been associated with product management That word management and one of the critical parts of a job description for product managers and I think it's also been adopted large Largely for product owners as well as stakeholder management that term stakeholder management But when I'm coaching product owners, I don't talk about stakeholder management as such I talk about stakeholder facilitation. I think that that difference of emphasis is important because The scrum master is facilitating people because they don't have authority now the product owner has some level of authority But quite often they don't have authority over the stakeholders. They need to facilitate them and and that phrase, you know Herding chickens is is or herding cats is is that it's chaos, right? and that those facilitation skills to be able to and a lot of these techniques as you say, chris will help massively In facilitating that group Um, that's my theory. Anyway Yeah, there is a package going to be delivered in a minute by the way, so I'll have to zoom out and So mute for a moment and be back in a minute. No worries. I'm just gonna google that that one. I'm afraid herding chickens Sorry Well, that will that make the bloopers real jeff? So now we have two minutes to talk about chris. So Well Oh, yeah, we you can tell us all all the secrets now Well, one of the um, one of the interesting conversations that we have with people in this series is is um inspirations So we we we started this track really in response to the fact that it was 20 years since the agile manifesto And you know how how things have progressed over the last 20 years since that event And the people that we've been talking to that we've considered In in various different ways to be inspirations to us, but also largely the community How how have you see well, I guess there's two questions. So I'll prioritize First of all, who are your inspirations as you as you are getting involved in the agile world and over the last 20 years or so Well, I shall I go first chris? Sure. Um So I think i'm gonna mention henry and geese once more. Um, but for a difference for a different reason I think they when I had a conversation with them a couple of years ago. They mentioned that they Moved into the direction of of developing liberating structures because they were a bit tired about all these frameworks and methodologies that were going on Also in their field of work Um, that's something something that I could really relate to because liberating structures doesn't tell you anything about What framework or methodology to use? Um, and I'm still Enthusiastic about scrum. I'm connected to scrum or talk as a scrum trainer and do quite a lot of work with scrum But for me, it's never about scrum. Um, so I use scrum from an agnostic perspective as well. Um, so Probably will hardly ever hear me Talk about scrum from a theoretical point of view Because that's quite boring you can read it in a scrum guide and then you'll just end up in a theoretical discussion that Sounds interesting, but it's pretty useless. Um, so I always try to uh, stay away from that from scrum as a Framework and more on a deeper level talk about empiricism How it ties back to complexity how it can help you with product delivery Um, and whenever we talk about Kanban agile extreme programming lean. Well, it's all fine by me But again, I'm also trying not to talk about Kanban itself. But again, so what does it make possible? So for me the inspiration was to Um, have a confirmation in what I already had in mind and just to strengthen it Yeah That's a good answer. Only plus one that by the way Um, I would have also said Henry and Keith maybe even more Henry because he's a bit older He's in he's really a senior citizen. I don't know his actual age into the 80s or 70s But the way he's he is still engaging with with professionals like us That's just incredible. I want when I have that age I want to do that to you know, just to be so engaged still with with with your work and what it makes possible Um, but also a lot of the people that inspired me when I started with scrum were not so much thought leaders or or anything But more like for example the owner of the company where I worked at the time Who was willing to give the teams that I was also a part of a large Degree of autonomy to make their own decisions which was risky because the products we were creating were quite It was important that they were of high quality but he still gave us autonomy and I think that That's still an inspiration to me and how you can lead a company and how how Different leadership often looks like in most companies I'm very spoiled in a sense by having worked for a company where I saw a good example of this But for me the the entrepreneurs the business owners to do that that make those kinds of decisions They are still very inspirational to me even now. Yeah, that's that's a really really good point I want to amplify that if I can because it's It is easy for us as trainers coaches podcasters, whatever we consider ourselves to be to say, you know, if you're running a business Then give your team's autonomy, you know inspected make mistakes, you know, try something get to market fail We can say all that stuff But actually when your money's on the line when you're you know, you're a director of a company you've got customers This is your baby. This is your life Actually doing that taking that gamble trusting those people And giving those people the space to to be themselves and and and that that is That is tough and and that will inspire more people deeper than any Thought leader like you say or author or Signatory of the manifesto not to put them down at all, but the people are actually doing the business I think that is a massive point. Yeah that have skin in the game if it goes wrong and Thought leaders can still contribute a hell of a lot to our community But sometimes it's easy to say something that sounds good, but you don't have any skin in the game But these are the people that are investing their money Sometimes their own money and I think that that's and and Barry You also work for a company where that was the case, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's the same and also again, uh, luckily a positive experience where I started experimenting with scrum at a web agency. I think it's already like eight nine years ago But I did organization also Made the jump towards autonomous teams And I was also able to see like the impact on on the owner and and what it's what kind of courage it took to make that decision And especially just to let go of control Because like you said, yeah, it's it's for us. It's quite easy to say just Just do it because I read in a lot of articles that it seems to be a good idea so let's just give a give it a try, but if it's your own company and and It can also. Yeah, it can become a success, but it can also go the other way around Um, but luckily. Yeah, I've also Had more positive than negative experiences on that on that area Where do you see it the next what's the next step? What's the new thing is the next Leap within an agile within the agile industry. Where do we need to go next? Where do we need to focus on? I can make a very, uh Poor connection to the scrum team survey I Is that okay? Yeah, what's your data telling you? Well, maybe not it maybe maybe just a step back is that our our hope for where we are going with our community is to be more evidence based to Whenever we decide to do something like apply a certain practice or even implement scrum or something else Look at the evidence. What is the evidence actually say when we talk about fluid teams? What is the evidence actually say? I think What in our community a lot of the things we do are informed by opinion are informed by what thought leaders say Which can be very true, but it can also be not true and it can also cause damage And I think that what would be really good is if in our community we use more existing evidence scientific evidence data evidence from data And also evidence from personal experience, but that should be just one part of it and that would be Perfect and awesome. And I think that that's what we're trying to do also in a small part with the scrum team survey Well, that I'm glad you brought that out because I know you've got a big passion for that And it's something that paul and I We touched on in a pubcast quite a while ago when we were in Dublin paul I can remember this one because it's something I've always wanted to come back to probably because it was in Dublin Oh, it was a dark ale. Um, but yeah, it was um No, there's just the idea that as a community as an industry we need to become a lot more Properly scientific, you know a lot more diligent and and and Careful and mindful about the experiments we run because you said about yeah, it may well be Opinions that are formed our decisions, but also we it's things that we see as facts, but actually Are influenced by our cognitive biases or things that we want to see We're so good at deluding ourselves as human beings and seeing what we think should be there or expect to be there And if we hold something as passionately as as a lot of us do in this industry You know, we believe that self-organizing teams are the right thing to do Well, then we will see evidence for that and we will filter evidence against that but in what conditions Um, I think it's really we do need to get a lot better at that I think that's a really good point the confirmation bias. It's so easy to fall into And and we fall into it all the time too, but Fortunately, there is a lot of research that we can rely on There is a whole lot of scientific research into agile teams into scrum teams into different practices But for some reason our community and the academic community that are both working on this area They don't know how to find each other And there are connections being made fortunately, but there's still far and few between so it would be great if we have way more of this In order for us to do that we one of the things that I've seen I tend to find either you get a lot of data that says positive things or a lot of data that says negative things I'm trying to get get the two perspectives together and being able to you know Rationally and objectively evaluate the different perspectives not hear two sides of the story Which is often what's put but rationally objectively evaluate all aspects of situations Try and take the emotion out of it as much as possible look for patterns look for connections But also strip out, you know, what appears to be Correlation or causality, but actually isn't That we talk about it But I don't think we've got the skills In the industry the discipline the rigor I agree not yet. I hope that's going to change And and we can work on this the four of us and others who are listening to this can work on this too, but yeah, totally agree with that There may be just one extra hope that I have it's more like a yes and so yes and more evidence based Work that we're doing and also a better connection with with the science that's available It may be new research that we can do an extra hope is that it also results in um Practices experiment strategies that the teams themselves can use to to create an environment where they can be successful So that the teams are put in a position that they have the self-managing capabilities to do something with To be the scientific findings that they have the autonomy and they don't have all these dependencies in their own organization Um, and I think as a community as a whole We can also do better in that area because I always find it a bit strange that Within our community everyone is preaching about autonomous teams self-organizing self-managing, etc, etc But then there's often this dependency like well, you do need me as the expert to make it work in your own organization while I believe that teams are Keep perfectly fine to to experiment for themselves what works in their own context Um, so just hope that as a community we can also move more in that direction Right to explain to my uh my 10 year old what um did the day what a a fad was um and a fad again, I'm not sure if that translates um went into dutch but um Basically we my wife described my work as a fad and I said well that that fad has been around for 20 years now So yeah, and I to explain to my 10 year old what I mean, but I yeah well on that point. I wonder if now that that um That that that initial that it is 20 years of course since the manifesto was signed um and created but That event that that's passion from a from a personal point of view has got us this far But I think you're right that it has to be backed up now and it has to be a lot more scientific it has to be a lot more evidence-based and it has to be Um proven I think people are looking to to prove or disprove those results within their own context And yeah, you can't do that just by telling people that they should do it Well, Chris, you've actually done this haven't you you've done studies and and So and a lot of people will have run tests But an experiment is different to a test, right? So what What would you what would you recommend? Anybody if you could give them some advice to make their tests more scientifically valuable or or empirically valuable? What would the advice be? That's such a good question I think there are two ways to go about this It kind of depends on what you're trying to test. So for example, if you're interested in testing, I don't know Is estimation a good technique to use in our organization or not? Then there is a lot of existing research that you can just read and and investigate and draw conclusions from So you don't have to necessarily do that yourself. I think Um, you can rely on really good high quality evidence. It's already there If it's more about uh, for example certain features in your product more product oriented testing that you're doing I think it's always really important to have a control scenario where you don't change anything And that you have a scenario where you actually enable a feature or disable it or make it different or change it in one way or another And then at least for a while measure as objectively as you can how that's impacting the users of your product And then you can actually compare it Use usefully. It's not a perfect experiment because doing a perfect experiment is hard Even in a controlled scientific environment, but I think this already takes out a lot of bias that could be in there Um, I think it's also important to learn at least some basic statistical techniques not just compare numbers But that you know what significance is and how you can calculate that. It's not hard You just have to know how to do this. I think that that would also be very helpful for people to know a bit more about yeah so I'm not necessarily I don't necessarily think everybody needs to go back to school and learn statistics and That's not but but I think just the basic premise of control variables dependent variables independent variable statistical significance sample size confirmation bias survivorship bias Those those factors if you can build those into what you're doing things will be better And I think that would be more than 15 percent going back to our 15 percent solutions That would be more than 15 percent and we would be better off as a result Mm-hmm Absolutely. Yeah, and maybe to add to this one thing that I've been thinking about recently is um, and actually talking about with a few people as well as it would be nice if For our community there would be an easier way to learn about scientific methodology And I don't mean necessarily all the details, but like what is actually an experiment? What is a controlled experiment? What is? um, what is a case study? What's the difference so that you can also determine what method you need to test your Hypotheses that you have about your product. I think that Learning a few of those skills would at least be helpful I think you're the perfect person to submit something like that to a to an upcoming contest Yeah, maybe Let me think about it. It would be it would be cool. Yeah I was gonna go but if I can chapters go back Just reintroduce the liberating structures aspect and I was interested um Really on how some of those things because obviously you mentioned you do some immersion workshops where you go through Those techniques have has the The remote working element changed or not changed but perhaps surfaced Some of those structures that work better for perhaps a lot teams Many teams won't have gone back to to face to face in person Work spaces yet. Is there anything that you found works really well that's easy to do online? Uh, yeah, um, I think for the past two years I've done quite a lot of we've done quite a lot of experiments with using liberating structures online Um, it is different. I think you cannot You can compare it but different using liberating structures online is different. They're using the same liberating structures face to face um I do give us an example well, um A lot of liberating structures have to do with uh body language With the way people are sitting in a small group the way people walk around the way People use the physical space. Uh, so to say so body language physical space that that that makes or breaks a liberating structure um That's completely different in an online setting um And it also makes it more difficult for some structures because some structures Can become more mechanical uh because then what if you take all of that away? What's what's left is the invitation or the topic that people have a conversation about Um, and yeah, it can still work. So I do I do I am convinced that if you do something online Liberating structures help you make the most out of it so it will drastically improve the online experience Especially if you use tools like zoom or recently Microsoft Teams also has this breakout room Option because then again, you can scale up and down the conversations that you have um, and yeah, some liberating structures Were maybe not better but are easier Um, because what we've done is um, for example, again critical uncertainties If you do it in a face-to-face setting Spotting the patterns across all the ideas that emerge in this exercise. It's quite difficult With an online whiteboard you just have to zoom out and then you'll see the patterns The same goes for eco-cycle planning. It's a lot of fun in the face-to-face setting In a way, it's just a healthy physical exercise Which requires a lot of walking, etc But again online is even easier Just create multiple eco-cycles Zoom in and out quickly and you'll see what's there and what you can learn So it's uh, yeah, it also has some advantages, but then again, it's it's different Yeah, I think we both prefer the in-person version of it Just because the energy in the group is so it's so cool to feel that energy that that happens when people usually Liberating structures, especially in large groups But at the same time during the COVID lockdowns, both Barry and I have been in multiple Conversation cafes where we had people from all over the world Sitting in conversation cafes, which is one of the liberating structures And just having that possibility to talk with anyone on the planet about a personal question with a well structured interaction like conversation cafe That was pretty cool. I have to say Yeah, good stuff Yeah, very good. I know I know paul what paul's about to say now He's going to tell me we have to wrap up jeff paul is my time boxer. He is my timekeeper Um, he is the one that manages to keep our episodes to a manageable length. Otherwise, I would be here all day That's because I've got an editor jeff So it is time and and generally the other time box that I have is that my glass is empty So That's that's my other way of my my non-clock watching method of time boxing But again, thank you both of you for what you've done, but also for joining us today um And yeah, cheers. Thank you jabs. It was a pleasure. Cheers. Cheers


The organ where the bulk of the digestion and absorption of nutrition occurs is the small intestine. It's a really long, really skinny tube, hence small. The really large surface area of the small intestine enables the efficient absorption of molecules. The average small intestine surface area is about 30 square metres. If that's laid flat out, it's about the area of a handball court. To increase the surface area in a small space, the intestine has many folds. The intestinal tissue is a mass of finger-like shapes called villi, or in the singular, villus. To get into our bodies, the nutrients have to cross the cell membranes into the intestinal tissue and so the greater the surface area of cells, the more nutrients can be brought in. If we zoom in further, we find that the surface of each villus is made up of hundreds of epithelial cells. Each of those cells has an increased surface area by having microvilli on the side that meets the inside of the intestine. Microvilli are more of these finger-like shapes that provide lots of surface area. They increase the opportunities for transport across the cell membrane. Collectively, the microvilli of many cells on the villi is called the brush border. A previous video talked about active and passive transport across membranes. Some nutrients, such as the sugar fructose, move into the epithelial cells by passive diffusion. Others, like amino acids, glucose and vitamins, require active transport. Sugars and amino acids are moved into the capillaries that protrude into each villi and so immediately enter the bloodstream. Other molecules, like fats, are absorbed into the epithelial cells, process further and then transported by exocytosis into lacteals in the villi. These join up with the lymphatic system. Later on, the molecules in the lymphatic system are added to the blood. Without the specialised microvilli surface of the epithelial cells in the small intestine, and without the shape of the small intestinal tissue as a tube with a ginormous surface area, the absorption of nutrients by the digestive system would be really inefficient. Likewise, if the food hadn't already been broken down to small pieces by the time it hit the small intestine, the large surface area wouldn't really help the absorption of nutrients. Each of the parts of the digestive system, the organs, the tissues and the cells, have evolved an important structure that helps its specific function play its part as part of the whole.


The Boomer On, llawer i chi'n gweithio gyda'r panfamysgau plátynol, y dyma yng Nghymru sy'n gwahanol o'r panfamysgau Lwcury. Diolch i'r gwaith yn ymdweithio, panfamysgau plátynol yn gwahanol yw'r gwahanol. O'r cofnod, mae'r gwahanol gyda'r project yng nghymru yng nghymru sy'n gweithio'r panfamysgau Lwcury. Ac rwy'n cael ei cyfnod. If you've ever dreamed of owning your own Volkswagen camper van, now's your chance as you can save £500 by using the code James500. All you have to do is speak to one of your friendly sales team and say that James English sent you there. Now, let's get into the episode. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. Ben, we're on! And today's guest, we've got actor Josh Myers. What's going on, my brother? Joshy Boyz! How are you? I'm not nervous. Are you really bit? Yeah, a little bit nervous to be fair, yeah. Why? Just because I know you're going to get a lot out of me, probably. And yeah, I'm just nervous. Obviously, to be fair, I have a big fan of your work and seeing all your podcasts and what you do. So, yeah, let's see what happens, eh? Good to have you on the show, brother. Appreciate it a lot. Thank you for having me. Yeah, we'll touch on it like we've just signed up for an MMA fight. A celeb MMA fight. I know people are going to go, well, where's the real celeb, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's an opportunity for both of us. We've never had an MMA fight. It's a challenge. Celeb MMA, it's going to be a good thing. It's 24th of June, is it? Yeah, 24th of June at OVO Wimblerina. 11,000 people. Yeah, something like that. It's going to be crazy. Opportunities meeting that. Yes, it's going to be brilliant, man. I'm really looking forward to it. It's just I've never fought in a cage before, but this is going to be great because I'm sure we'll touch base on this, but it's just I'm back training solid again. We're training together on the same team, which is absolutely love. And yes, I've got 11 weeks training and then on the 12th week we've got our fight. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it, man. It's going to be good. Game time. You've been in a few columns. Rise of the foot soldiers. You've been in two or three. You've worked with Tom Hardy. You've worked with some of the greatest actors on this planet. It's a phenomenal achievement. I know you've battled with mental health as well, which we'll touch on, but I'll always go back to the start of my guests where you grew up and how it all began. So, I grew up in, I grew up in Edgware. That's basically, yeah, grew up there since I was a kid, born and bred Edgware boy, North London. And, yeah, and where I grew up, I went to school, primary school, went to a school called Broadfields.  I went there to obviously year six and then finished that. Went to secondary school, Millar County, but the whole time I, you know, touched it back on the acting side, I wanted to do acting the whole way through because my family in the film industry. My dad's quite well-known film distributor and my grandpa was big in the game when I was younger. So growing up, I was always seeing them on film sets and doing big films and there's a thing I want to touch on with you soon, which I don't think you know about, which was my grandfather, Gullves himself. I miss him. He was, he would be proud of me when I am now. Bless him. But my, the Halloween films, I don't know if you see them, the guy with the white mask. Chewing? No, might see. Michael Myers. Yeah, that was named after my granddad. What was that?  Why? So my... Wasn't a serial killer was it? No, honestly. As far as I know, unless my grandma's keeping a mental secret from me. You have got the traits of a Morris bromie.  No, so basically my, when I was growing up, my, I was always interested in being an actor, you know, because from young age, you know, like when you get like, you go off on school on summer holidays, Easter holidays, blah, blah, blah. And I would sometimes go to work with my dad, my grandpa when he was alive. You know, being as young as 10, 11 years old, I was visiting film sets. And yeah, and I remember this story popped up where basically I found out a long time ago, before I was born, my grandpa owned, my dad's dad owned a lot of cinemas right in the UK. He had a company called First Independent Films. And he helped, if I'm correct in saying this, he helped John Carpenter, the writer and director of the original Halloween films, a big success. So he basically acquired the rights or distributed the original Assault on Precinct 13 film in the UK because it bombed in America and made John Carpenter a big success. And people in America, I believe, started to take notice of him. Anyway, Colin's story quite short. His next project was the Halloween projects. And John Carpenter actually says, if it wasn't for my grandpa, he'd be working in some hotel somewhere so he'd been up. So out of respect to pay homage to my grandfather, called the killer in his Halloween films after him. So that's why the killer's called Michael Myers. After your grandfather? After my granddad, yeah.  Mentor, isn't it? Yeah. No, not many people know that, but... We do now. You do now. Yeah. I'm not a serial killer, by the way. Not yet. I've got his traits. So when you said you were allowed to shut at school, then what were you? Just, I never used to listen to teachers. I'd always act out. I was just a little fucker, man. I wasn't a good... I wasn't... I listen, I had an amazing upbringing, but I wasn't a good kid. I always acted out. I always wanted to be the centre of attention in school. Anywhere I went, it was always like, look at me, look at me. I don't know about them, look at me. I'm the centre of attention, look at me. But obviously that didn't really work out in schools because I'd always be the class clown, getting chucked out of classes, getting detention after school, just being trouble, putting my parents through so much shit.  Being a young kid, I had therapy at a young age since the age of light. I'm honestly going back to probably 12 or 13. I probably started therapy. I just had a lot of demons in my head. I was scared. One thing that I will remember is when I was... I didn't want to go to sleep. I don't know what come over me. I just didn't want to go to sleep at night because I was scared of death. And I used to be scared of that, but whatever, wake up and my mum's gone. And I didn't say goodbye to her. So I'd always used to go up to her bed at night and give her a kiss on my dad. So I love you, just in case I don't see you tomorrow. And they'd be like, what are you talking about? Come on, it's a bed. You know, give us a cud. My family is a very loving family. So I love my mum, I love my dad to bits. But yeah, I couldn't get over that death. I was so frightened of going to sleep and never waking up. So yeah, I went to see someone. That's as far back as I remember why I first started to go and see a therapist. What was because of that? What was it like at that age going to see a therapist? Especially when you were in school and did your friends or anything, no? No, I've put it at that age probably too embarrassed to tell people. As far back as I remember, I kept that quiet. And I remember even having not special teachers. Well, I did actually from primary school into secondary school, I used to get teachers who would not follow me around, but you'd have a teacher who'd teach a class and a substitute teacher. And that substitute teacher would mainly sit next to me because I couldn't help myself. I'd always want to act out and shout out.  But they would say, oh, Josh is just, you know, turn to page four. No, I'm not doing that. I want to do page six. No, we're doing page... No, I'm not doing that. I'm doing what I want.  Parents get called. And this was every week. Every week I was getting told off because I would act out.  And, you know, my mum would have to stop what she's doing in a day thinking we're at school, got time to do what she wants. So stop her day, come into school, pick me up because I've been chucked out of school again.  Yeah, a difficult kid. Definitely a difficult kid. When you say you didn't want to go to sleep, how long? What's the longest you stayed up for?  I reckon at least a couple of times I would go throughout the whole week. Every night I got put to bed to go to bed.   You're going to bed, it's 10, 11 o'clock. It's too late getting to bed. All right, I'm putting the TV on. No, you're not. Yes, I am. No, you're not. What, we'll take the TV out of your room. Do it then. I was horrible to them when I was a kid. Did you ever hallucinate or anything when you were younger that you were trying to force yourself to not sleep? Not that I remember, but I definitely were times where I'd be falling asleep and I'd fight going to sleep. I used to sneak downstairs and I'd go and eat something. I'd go to the fridge and start eating chocolate to have sugar to stay awake. Because I didn't know when you were young.  But I remember hearing your parents say when you were a young kid, no, you're not having that now. You're eating too much sugar.  So I thought, oh, well, if I take that, I won't sleep. So I would eat throughout the night and then next minute I know I've kind of passed out, woken up an hour later. I've got to get ready for school.  I'm arguing with teachers. I'm not necessarily arguing with the other kids, but I'm just being the closed clown again. Getting chucked out. I mean, this was like an every other day occurrence. There wasn't really a day in primary school that I was a really good kid. It was always like they'd have board meetings about me. How are we going to deal with Josh? Because I didn't want to go to school. I hated school. I want to stay at home with my mum and my mum. My dad was obviously in town always working doing his film stuff. I want to be with my mum because I was always scared that something might happen to her. I wanted to see her again. I was scared of death. I had all these things going on in my head that just affected me mentally. And that's why my mum was like, I think we need to tell you to see a therapist. And that's why I started going to a therapist. Did that help? Yeah, it did for me. It was unloading. And I think unloading on talking about it when I was younger was really, obviously really helped me. They taught me breathing techniques, just how to deal with going to sleep at night. And yeah, it did help to be fair, yeah. What's the root of that? Did it get to the problem? Do you know what? Like I said, I haven't spoken like this to anybody what I'm telling you right now. Nobody knows this about the death thing. So I can't really remember what it was. But I definitely remember just not wanting to go to sleep because I was scared I was going to die on my sleep. Maybe it was stuff I saw on the news. Maybe it was stuff I heard and I didn't clock it. They never really got to the root of it, but they helped me to say that you're a young kid. You've got a good heart. You're going to be okay. But I'd say I would wake up in the middle of the night and go out to my mum's room and just lie in the bed for her. Up to the age of like probably 13. You know, I'll never tell my friends that. You know, obviously when you're 11, 12 years old, no one goes, oh, did you have a good sleep last night?  But I know I did because I slept next to my mum and my dad. Just feel safer? Yeah, much safer. Knowing I'm next to my mum and my dad, 100%. Yeah, it's sad that people get anxiety and overthink that way. We are scared and fearful of life. But they should have their support mum and dad there. Yeah, thank God I did. Because there's unfortunately a lot of people, a lot of people out there don't have mums or dads. And I'm very lucky that I did.  And I don't know why. What did you do after school? Secondary school? Yeah. After secondary school, which I'd just finished because they wanted to chuck me out of that as well. So I got to year 10. I mean, listen, when I got to year 7 in secondary school, my first year, within an hour, I don't know if you'll get this, within an hour of being in secondary school, I got detention, a Saturday detention. Not even just an hour after school. I was so naughty and I was involved in a fight.  And I saw someone bullying a kid and I just went for him because I don't like bullies. I never have, never will. And I got Saturday detention where at that school I went to, you have to go in your uniform on a Saturday to school and do an hour of maths, hour English, hour of science. Did I turn up? Did I fuck? In year 7, already showed I'm a cun. And my mum would drop me at the gates. I walked down. She turns around. I walked straight up my car. Go and have a smoke. Go to meet my mates in my uniform. Josh didn't turn up. Where is he? And at that age, I don't know if I had a mobile.   Because obviously I know when I get home the schools have called them to say where's Josh as you're right isn't turned up. My mum's like I've dropped him at the gate. So that was mad. But yeah, so basically when I did finally finish school because I got to year 10, I don't know how I got to the year 10. And the last year was year 11. But when I got to year 10, the last month of year 10, I remember the headmaster pulling me out of my class. I said, Josh, can we come visit you? I said, yeah, right. Sweat, whatever. And I went into his room and it was him, my mum, my dad, four or five of our teachers. And I remember them sitting me down. They're like, look, Josh, these are the head of each. Like that's the head of maths. I said a science, blah, blah, blah. But the one thing for me that I excelled in and I loved because I could express myself was drama. I was never naughty in drama class, never, not once. I listened and I learned because that's what I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be an actor.  I didn't want to learn maths because I can't do it. I still can't do maths. I don't learn science, but we're going to do it. I ain't only sciences, am I? I don't learn geography. I'm not going to do something with geography. So I just wanted to be a drama student. I just thought if I could done that full time every day, I'd have been happy as hell, but obviously that's not the way of the world. But he pulled me in, cut me short. He basically said, look, we wanted to expel you so many times.  You're not good for our school.  But they said their headmaster, Dr. Davieson, a member at the time.  Begging us to not expel you.  You've got what you wanted. I said, yeah, that's right. I don't want to come to school.  So we haven't. But we've brought you up and down in today and you are in our class to tell you this. If you get X amount of hours or Saturday Detentions in year 11, the next year you're going into when you've got to do your GCSEs, right? You're expelled. Sorry, Lindsay. Sorry, Martin. It's my mum and dad. We won't do it anymore. You're gone. You won't do year 12 in sixth form. You know what I put? Six, wherever.  You're flunk wherever. We just, it is what it is. It's okay. You won't be doing a drama school. My dad said, forget drama school. Gone. Done. If you don't buck your ideas up in this year, next year, when you come back, my dad said to me, I will not pay for your drama school lessons.  This is really happening. Do you know the tensions I got on year 11? What? Zero? Not one. I was a model student on year 11.  What is it? Is cry out for help or the fact that we have a diagnose with anything? Um, I wasn't so. I don't have ADHD now and fucking. No, no, no.  No, I wasn't actually diagnosed with anything. I was just a naughty kid and I was just acted out. If I didn't want to do something in class, I wouldn't do it. If I knew the answer for something, I wouldn't even put my hand out. I'll shout it out. And everyone in the class is going, oh, I know sir, I know miss.  I know the answer. I'm shouting out. What do you think you love drama so much? Oh, because I can express myself and I've been judged without being judged. Yeah, I can do anything I can act like anyone. And it's an act like like I do now. I can act that person, this person, that person.  Why do the majority of the team? Um, yeah. So, um, yes, that was that and then went, but that really hit me when my dad said that like I went to silver young drama school every weekend and my dad was like that's gone. I'm telling you now that's gone I'm not paying for it no more. And I was like oh no because I loved it there made such good friends and that for me was going to a drama school where I'm just acting improvisation doing script work learning how to work myself in front of a camera in an audition situation. I was learning stuff that I needed to get to where I am today. So yeah year 11 I was I was even so good that half way through the year I think six seven months into the year we were having an assembly about something and they pulled me up on stage through the other kids in year 10 talking about me saying this Josh can do it you can all do it. Well done Josh. How did that make you feel? It's not really feel good man. I did feel good. It didn't really feel good. It was crazy though. You ever bullied anything? No I was I was very lucky I was never bullied. I was I think I was never bullied in the school because my brother was older he was three years older me. I mean my brother's not I mean a tough boy but he had all his friends and some of them were tough so I was never bullied but I think it's because I was the funny kid and the class count and I was always quite a big not physically big and strong but I was quite tall at a young age and I just wouldn't take shit someone's to start on me I would start back at a kid and I hated bullies. They were a big thing for me. So what did you do after school? So after school I didn't know what to do. I really didn't know what I was going to do obviously because I was like I just want to be an actor and my dad was like well you know we can help you get an agent you can do in your drama classes but the one thing that my dad said to me was that you need to have something to pardon me that you need to have something to fall back on. So I did a personal training course because I loved working out and gym in and I became a personal trainer for about a year two years something like that and then I got bored of that.  Out last night thank you out last night with everybody and everybody was drinking and I can still have a good time. I had a I think it was a copperberg non-alcoholic. Oh yeah I still use scab right? Non-alcoholic.  You can still go out and socialize or just I've got a cut off point people start getting rowdy and I just smoke bomb. Oh yeah 100% yeah I'll be exactly the same. How was the booze in the gear when you were on the medication like how does that affect that? Your depression the next day?  Mae'n cael ysgu wneud. Mae'n cael ysgu bwysig, mae'n cael ei wneud, fyddai'n cael ei wneud o'n teacha, fyddai'n cael ei wneud o amlau. Mae'n cael eu maen nhw'n cael eu maen nhw. Felly mae'n cilio ar gyfer, Joshy, mae'n cymryd i iawn i gondol pwysig ag ymdyn nhw. gylai'r malau i'r gael, ond dw i'n rhoi gyd-fawr, rwy'n ogylch na'n oes i'w gael eich bod oed i'w gael. Rwy'n oed i gael. Nid yw 35, oed yn lle roi 50, dynno, dylw i roi droi, oed yn roi'w gael, fe oeddwn i'n ymwylion i'w gwneud hynny. Ond roi'n oed yn glwscwpio'i gwahanol i жaddlwn i'w gwath-drym. A wedi cael ei gwybod ddyn nhw. Mae'r cyfnodaeth yn gweithio, os ni eisiau idio dim maen nhw. Mae'r cyfnodaeth yn y ddelwyd, fod gennym eich gwaith yng nghymru, i'r cyffredig am falch ar gynny i mi, felly roedd yn ei gweithio yr EAM calls. Fi'n gweithio i'r gael, rydyn ni'n gweithio a'n gymryd nhw'n cael gwanes. Mae'r gôn am ddifrif iawn.  In world anderes.  But the cap who's up there as well.  Yeah, but again, that's a great film. Three hours film, over three hours that. I love films I like. Who would you like to work with?  Again, I'd love to work with Leonhard Capio, I'd love to work with Tom Hardy again. I'd say, honestly, Tom Hanks for me. If you pick any film in the world that you would have loved to be involved in, what would it have been? Green Mile. John Coffee. Yeah, that's a drink. Would you have played The Screw? I would have played, I would have played, I would have played. Wild Bill. Bits chocolate people. Yeah, Wild Bill. Stumps in the house.  I know, I could play that. I break my heart every time I still watch that film.   Knowing he didn't kill the murder of those two girls, Wild Bill done it, the character Arland had a play. But yeah, and you've seen everything he'd done, he annoyed me so much, but it's a film, it's a script, and that was that. That's what's bringing it real life and bringing it emotion out. And people talk showing Lee Murray, who's in prison in Morocco to now, who's involved in one of the biggest heists. You say you look like him, there is a resemblance that if they make his film, it's going to be, I imagine, a mega success. He was a great fighter for the UFC. And later, he's involved in one of the biggest heists. Do you think that's a possibility that he could play his part in the future?  And I would like at the time, who's that? And then I found out who's top cage fighter for Anderson Silva.  Especially when I had short, spiky hair, not my little up here like this. I look at him and everyone's like, you look at the image of him. Even people that I know now, I won't mention, but who actually trained with him. They're like, mate, you are Lee. You look at the image of him. So I was like, ah, sweet, all right. So I think it's crossed.  I know how to fight. Yeah, so that'd be a massive role for me. Can you imagine me playing Lee Murray? It'd just be a great film because what he's done, I really hope he comes out. How much does the medication affect your acting? Do you not even know anywhere?  Yeah, you did, yeah. Straight away? I know, yeah. And there's not to be something I'm so happy about. You like him, won't you?   Of course, why wouldn't I be? Yeah, exactly. That friendly buddy watching Josh, that's maybe going through the struggles, maybe gets anxiety, sleeping over things and they don't want to be here or whatever. What advice would you have for them? I would say never be afraid to talk to someone. Please always open up and tell your loved ones, your friends, your family, anything, especially in, you know, I know women, you know, I'm not saying not just women as well, but mainly men, guys, please open up and talk to someone. If you're feeling down, you're feeling depressed, you don't think you can get through life, you can. If I know I've gone through stuff but not as bad as other people who are probably watching this who might think, oh, you're going through nothing compared to what I've been through, you've had a good life, but we all suffer differently with our depressions. One thing I'll say is never be afraid to talk. Yeah, it's important. Yeah. Would you like to finish up on anything, my brother? Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, and thanks for making me cry, you prick. Yeah, I told you I would. Thank you so much for having me. I can't believe thank you so much for letting me, but they've come on the show.   You're a great dad, great friend, and like I said, I'm happier in my life, my brother. Me too, bro, thank you. I bless you. Love you, my man. Yeah, God bless.