My name is Alex Fergus from AlexFergus.com and today I'm having a look at the human charger Which is this device here also known as the Valkyrie device. I think that's how you call it So I was sent this to play around with because as many of you know, I'm into sleep I'm also into gadgets technology optimizing performance. I do a lot of traveling And I have some travel coming up as well So I don't work with clients and all those people looking at improving sleep So the one of the team see me or I bumped into him in LA The bulletproof conference and we got talking about this device and I had my doubts and I still do so he explained a bit about it and he said look I'm gonna see anyone you can test it and Who you think so it actually arrived about two weeks ago And I had it sitting here and I hadn't really got around to opening it I'm just opening it now. And yeah, it's a pretty nice device. It comes with What have I got here? It comes with the the battery pack. I guess that's what it is with a big button on it and Then it comes with their phones Which were in a which I was playing around with before and then I got in a big tangle So if anyone can come up with tangle-free headphones, let me know Well, they deserve to be millionaires honestly anyway, so so they look like earbuds But they're not they've actually got little LEDs on the end of them. So when I press the button here See how they shine boom. It's like a whitey bluey light, right? You wouldn't want that at night now they go in the air and You're getting um Light shine down there. It also comes with and I'll explain why that would you'd want to do that So it also comes with a charger USB charger. Oh, what else we got here? We've got some earbud sizing kits You know for the big ears and the little ears and stuff not that that really matters to be honest because you're not trying to get a seal Well, I mean, I didn't think you are you're not really trying to get a proper seal. So um, you get good sound quality You just want a good fit more than anything. So it's still important to have that And then a bunch of instruction manuals and Various languages which ones English here we go. This is English. Yeah, so I'll have to have a read through this So that's what it comes with now For those of you who have read my artichoke morning light and how it's important for sleep, you'll know how white Various colors of light, you know have different impacts on on the body So blue light for instance is stimulating and you don't want that at night. It suppresses melatonin Combump up cortisol. It's the last thing you want when you're trying to get to bed Which is why you wear blue block is and dim the lights and everything like that And you can read about blue light on my blog AlexFurgus.com If you have no idea what I'm talking about red light for instance is very healing Okay, so I've got a red light device a juve red light device and I've written about that as well And how beneficial that is for healing and everything So another thing is the timing of light exposure Can impact the body and in particular the scale circadian rhythm So again blue light late at night is stimulating all right You don't want that late at night But it is beneficial to get that in the morning all right and even during the day because that blue light effectively is Signaling the body and the brain that hey the sun's up. Okay, because anytime you really get that blue light in nature is through the sun So it stimulates signaling the brain that hey the sun's up, you know Let's go about a day body temperature should be higher energy should be higher Reproductions like you know all that sort of stuff with digesting food and all it all that sort of good stuff But unfortunately not everyone can get outside in the morning. Okay, maybe you work night shift Maybe you're traveling Maybe you just start early mornings. Maybe it's really cloud cloudy or dark saying that it's still better to get outside than stay inside Even if it is cloudy because you still do get that um bright light coming through No, it may not feel that bright. But anyway, so what this device does it allows you to hack the sign in a way, so The body has Photo receptors in the ear canal. Okay, just like in the eyes and even on the skin Apparently there's a lot in there the ear. So what this company have done is created these earbuds light sources that go in the air now the idea is you turn this on for 10 12 minutes I think it runs for truckmen the ears and that shooting Photons light photons at a particular wavelength. I don't know exactly, but I think it's a bluey greeny I don't think it says in here. I'll have to look at all the data to see exactly Exactly the wavelength of light that they're using. Oh, here we go 450 peak wavelength for 50 nanometers 12-minute duration 10,000 lux within one cinema. So it's really bright. Okay, so you can really bright Light go straight into the end and then that's going to have a stimulating effect Pretty much. It's like an artificial sun and it's going to trigger the body to You know cause all the good things that happen when the sun comes up in the morning All right, and again read about this in my article the importance of morning light for sunlight morning light for sleep because I explain all the science and what's happening on a hormone or when and Neurotransmitter point of view in that article note I don't want that this video to be about that and instead I want it to be about this so um If you following me on Instagram or Facebook, I share a lot of my sleep stuff, right? I use the ordering here and many of you know that I sleep really really good It's a big passion of mine. I do whatever I can to get a good night's sleep So this is why I haven't really been bothered using it lately But well what since it arrived because I'm already getting good sleep. I got stable sleep patterns. Um, It's not an issue. I'm out for the night. I fall asleep like that I wear blue blockers at night and we're coming into summer here in New Zealand So it's the sun's already up at you know six o'clock in the morning and it's nice bright warm sun So I'm getting outside anyway, right? So I was like, well I don't I don't really want to use this like there's not not much point in using it at the moment But I can see the benefits if it does what it's supposed to do. I can see the benefits for night shift work is for travelers Or for those that live in very northern or southern letitutes for instance Finland and that is where this There's a thing somewhere that that is where this was designed as you can see designed in Finland, right? Because they're come wintertime. They're not getting much sun in the morning, right? So If it does what it's meant to do, it's perfect 12 minutes put it in the air. It's gonna kickstart you You know, give the body going cortisol is gonna be bumped up a little bit You're gonna sleep better at night assuming you're wearing blue blockers and everything all those good things are gonna happen Now there is a bit of controversy controversy around this some people say it's not that effective some people say it's a gimmick I Had read those stories and so I was a skip deck, which is why I got talking To the company and LA and they said look you have to try it So it's been sitting here on my desk for a couple weeks and I played around with it But I was like, yeah, it's not real use but what's happening is I have just booked some flights to go to Finland of all places Not to see these guys know I'm going over there for other reasons So that requires something like 40 hours of traveling I don't know how many time zones I'm crossing but it's pretty much the opposite time of where I am in New Zealand So when it's my daytime to the night time stuff plus it's going into winter time for them. So they're not getting much sun at all So I'm gonna take this with me and I'm gonna use it and see if it helps Pretty much how I'm gonna use it every morning when I get up at least local time morning I'm gonna put this on even during the day. Maybe it was a bit of a topper so That's what I'm gonna be doing over the next week or two and then I'll be able to give you my thoughts on how effective this device is So this is the device here as you can see it's got a big button on the top you press that it glows and The light goes apparently that runs for 12 minutes and then it automatically shuts down You press it again, and you switch it off the manual here Explains silicon fittings USB connector and then it's got a few Benefits in here so increase mental alertness increase move mood energy levels It's saying use the human charge charger on a regular basis once a day within two hours of waking Jet lag recovery, so this is what I'll be using it for When you travel across several time zones you're likely to experience some jet lag Human charger is perfect for accelerating recovery from unpleasant symptoms of jet lag if your flight is eastward Use a human charger first thing in the morning four times during the day So it's got a whole protocol here. All right, depending on which way you're going, but I've been told there's an app So I'm gonna go check out that for more detail for the more detailed trip specific instructions You can download free human charger command you an app from the store Shift work energy boost if you need to extend your day or wake up particularly early So you use it for shift work Jet lag winter blows or just on a day where you maybe you slipped down or you don't want to go outside in the money All right, so I've just downloaded the app human charger app. Let's see what happens with this home airport. All right, we will say new Plymouth Welcome to human charger This app reads your flights from trip it and then turns them into optimal schedule to be jet lag Cool, so I don't have trip it but I can get it All right, so I've been playing around with this app and I can see the flights in here So it was thinking with trip it after all so anyway crazy, but we're here now. So what we are is here we're Monday afternoon and Tomorrow morning as we scroll through you can see It's got recommendations as to when you should Use the human charges. So it's telling me, you know in the morning eight o'clock I should use it and then again at ten o'clock and then I've got my flight to eleven o'clock and It's only a short flight. It's only like an hour long flight. And then I've got my second flight tomorrow Leaving at three o'clock local time, which is five a.m. And doha where I'm going to be stopping over now That's an 18 hour flight. It's a long way, right? So and then as I scroll through it's got all these recommendations, right? So it's got four times where I should be using it Which align the first one is one o'clock in the morning New Zealand time my home time and then Which is three o'clock doha time all the way through till 8 p.m. Doha time Which is interesting because I'm just confused. I'm like is that Is that working? So this is a dose taken at this point helps you adjust to local time Does that mean a local time and doha or local time at my in destination? Which is another flight afterwards. I'm not 100% sure how that's working. Um, I Might have to reach out to them, but it's young. I'm thinking it is the end goal at first I thought it was for doha because You know, there's like four flights there and that's The float four times there and then there was nothing when I landed in Helsinki in the morning, right? I landed Seven o'clock in the morning Helsinki times. So you'd imagine some light dosages there, right? But then looking at it telling me I need to do these the human use a human charger at nine o'clock Doha time. So anyway, um, oh, I'll need to clarify that but if it all is Is aligned with your end goal as in Helsinki then um, it's pretty cool And it's definitely going to be something that I'll I'll use To help me adjust see for instance is telling me I should be using it at nine o'clock in the evening Helsinki time which I thought it would be like, you know, you use it during the trip and then you land in Helsinki Seven eight nine ten o'clock in the morning. You're hammering it and then when the sun goes down at four o'clock Oh my god, that's gonna be crazy Then you you back off Some big concern that it's pulling my data from You plummet because those are the times anyway, look, I'm gonna play around with it But to be honest, I'm a total believer and when it comes to traveling just to get as much sleep as possible Um and and then towards the end of the trip trying to adjust to the local time and I will be using this when When I am waking up and to help kickstart me as well as using caffeine and then blue block is but I've written a few articles on jet lag So um, I won't go into that. But anyway, I fly tomorrow. So yeah, I'll keep you posted on How it all goes Hey guys Alex here, so I'm back from my epic Finland trip to Helsinki huge trip 10 days away. I think it was coming back it well going over it was like 35 hours of traveling coming back I was further north. So it was four flights an extra flight 44 hours of traveling 44 hours door to door It was insane. I wanted flights was like 17 hours or something. I live in time zone So it was literally the opposite, you know, like daytime here in New Zealand was nighttime over there Um, so it was perfect chance to test this out the Valky human charger Which must have the flight batteries right now? anyway, so Before I left I mentioned how you know, I didn't know that much about it and I tried it I think two or three days Maybe twice I guess all I tried it and I didn't really notice too much But then I thought about I was like, you know what like I already feel really good This is before I left, you know, I feel great my house great My ordering data was always showing anything from 85 to 95% sleep score. My readiness was really good I wasn't stressing the body much as doing one training a week I had I was doing all the right things when it comes to sleep, right? So wearing blue blockers pitchback room Stable bedtime, you know consistent bedtime Consistent wait time. I'd wake up in the morning. I'd go outside and ground it's summertime here in New Zealand So the sun's up nice and early bright sun lots of sunlight. I'd go outside I'd give that sunlight in my face I'd go for about a 40 minute or 30 minute walk during the day I'd get back outside and then yeah, no time would do the opposite, you know blue light glasses in the way And I could sleep in like I could do whatever on like I was flexible with my sleep time and yeah as a result I was getting amazing sleep data and feeling good So it was only natural that when I use the product that the human charger The sunlight in your pocket device that I didn't really notice too much right because I mean What I didn't need, you know, I didn't need that benefit so to speak Um, and then even during the day when I am inside every now and then I'll just go outside for a walk Or I'll check the garden and stuff and check out my vlog at AlexFigs.com And you can you can see more about these things and how I live my life in it But yeah, I'm gonna just pull up a few data points here. So this is the ordering yet Check out my review and there is a new one just been announced. So I'm excited to see that So this is before I left right like look at these sleep scores 91 85 88 85 84 94 like they're really good scores and their bottom line there is deep school sleep So, you know, my sleep is not an issue right and You know, I'm getting like nine hour sleep and stuff reading the scores as well. We're look at this This reading the score is based on Once it focuses in based on HRV heart rate or sleep, you know activity Look, these are reading the scores 94% 87 80 85 86 87 85, right? So the reason I'm showing you this is I Was I am healthy. I don't stress the body too much. I'm gonna lose so much. I sleep great so this is It's designed to help the body when we don't have perfect sleep We don't have bright light when we are traveling when we're stuck indoors, you know When you're not living the life I am when here it's three o'clock in afternoon I have a shirt off just being out in the garden in the Sun, right? A lot of you are stuck in offices or trucks or wherever and You might not be able to get outside and get that sun or you're living in northern climates And you don't get the sun, you know until three o'clock in the tool like 10 or 11 o'clock in the day And then it sits at three o'clock like it didn't else in key, which is crazy So all you you know, you're doing a lot of traveling and in that case I realized that this actually is a good product or amazing product because it can help you get the things that I'm getting here in a normal life. So for instance when I was traveling In the morning in Helsinki for instance, it was so dark, right? And then the sun would come up like hardly come up would be cloudy So it's not a very bright day and then it's only it's just hovering on the horizon And then it's sitting again at two three o'clock in the afternoon. It's just not my sun around so using this I could mimic the Sun without, you know, while I was sitting inside or sitting on a plane And I noticed like it was giving me a bit of a stimulating hit again I didn't notice this prior to going but when I was there it was a lot more pronounced and I think it was because here I didn't need it, you know, like I was getting the Sun from outside but over there I wasn't getting the Sun and it was like, wow, you know, this is this is doing something Um, and then from a circadian alignment, circadian rhythm jet lag point of view Here's my thoughts this helped And I'll show you how it helps using the app. I'll get into that soon. This helped when I got to Helsinki I went to be at the first night around 10 30 11 o'clock right local time. That was 9 30 in the morning New Zealand time Now I'll admit I didn't get a ton of sleep on the trip over I think I got, you know, like five hours sleep on one flight and then about three hours on the other And it was like 35 hours of traveling. So yes, I was quite tired But in previous trips before I've had this device even despite the bad sleep when I got to The destination I'd be exhausted But you'd go to bed and you'd just be like, you know, your mind was racing I just couldn't sleep and that happened in America for instance on a recent trip Where I was up to like, you know, three o'clock in the morning just lying there in bed And so it was funny because I went to bed Tired exhausted thinking I really hope I get to sleep and I did like my sleep latency time in the aura app Was was tiny. It was miniscule. I don't even remember like falling asleep You know, it was one of those nights where you get into bed to turn the light off and and then you'd wake up so that was great and um Again, it's very hard to Quantify this exactly like what would have happened if I didn't have this I don't know. I can't I can't do that. Unfortunately, but I didn't know that I was falling asleep bang on You know 10 30 11 every single night of that trip What didn't happen though was I didn't stay asleep for an extended period. So I was waking About six hours later at about five o'clock four thirty five o'clock pretty much every morning in that Finland trip I'd wake up Which is funny because that time is like three o'clock in the afternoon local time in New Zealand So it wasn't like I was waking up at, you know, nine o'clock in the morning Local time sorry New Zealand time, you know, when you'd expect to wake up or eight o'clock in the morning I was waking up in the middle of the afternoon, which was kind of weird But the point was I was falling asleep fast Which is a big thing for traveling and I was getting good sleep in those six hours. All right. It was just shorter And yeah, so I noticed that and then during the day I would just be hammering this which is why the battery is going flat again I'd just be hammering this all day. So I'd get up put it in two hours later Use it again during the day use it again. And of course in Helsinki. It was very dark, right? That winter time over there. So Or I was indoors the whole time like if I did get outside it was freezing There was no sun. It was cloudy.  So this was like a perfect substitute, you know, so And again, that's what it's I realized now. That's what it's for. That's who it's for people live in those climates People who can't get outside people stuck in offices people work night shift people travel a lot That's what it's for and that's kind of why I didn't really notice much and that now I'm noticing a lot. So, um Really cool. And then yeah, I was using that during the day and in the morning to adjust and then uh, I was there for about a week So I was using it every day and then coming home. I loaded my flight into trip it. Okay, so That was the app I set up the other day before I left and now it's really cool I should have done it a few days before I left because what it does is it pulls in all that data and looks at Where you're going in the time zone difference and then tells you when you should be using the app and everything Prior to going sorry the device prior to going I used I set that up like the night before like it was a bit silly So when I loaded in the data before I left this time, it was already giving me recommendations to help Sink, you know my my light cycles. So, uh, I got the app here. Um, I hope it's still got my flights on it Yeah, it does. All right, so Oh, maybe it doesn't No, it looks like I've lost the flights, but anyway, I'll show you what was happening So this is before I left and you'll see down here. It's got program starts And then it's just giving you these reminders like when to use the um The device see those little sunlight graphs there and then if you turn on notifications or just pop up It's human charger time. So then when I was in the airport in the plane, uh, Whenever that went I just I just Put the device in my ear and fired it up and was actually really cool and it worked The the time recommendations actually worked well like I That first was kind of like why is it saying then but then I looked at it I was like I can see how it sort of shifted me across. Uh, so then for instance You know, I got on my long 60 now flight I think I used it for a little bit to stay up a while and it was slowly pushing me back into that New Zealand time zone Then I had a good, you know 12 hour period without it Late, uh, and then I woke up from my sleep and it was telling me to use it again Which is good And then I then arrived in New Zealand five o'clock in the morning and I actually got outside I had a fight for our lever So I hung out outside and waited for the sunrise to come up But then it was saying use it again use it again throughout the day And then it was like pushing me to use it even later in the day, you know in the afternoon just to um You know so I could just to to keep me fresh You know keep me awake. It was like middle of the day one o'clock in the afternoon like give that sunlight give that sunlight rather than because Three days prior that exact time would have been, you know midnight in Helsinki So like I kind of adjusted to that. So anyway, I'm kind of rambling here But the idea was following the recommendations helped and even today Like it just told me to do the morning light at eight o'clock and 10 o'clock Uh in the morning today local time. So I did that of course I went outside for my walk and of course, it's the sun's out already today. So I'm being outside Tonight it's got no recommendations and then tomorrow morning it in so um, yeah, I mean That helped me the app really helped. I didn't know there was an app at first. So uh, that's why I was so late Sitting it up, but I'm definitely going to use it for other trips I'm going to see it well up in advance. Am I going to use it day to day No, not over summer because again, I've got the sun out there and all the good things the sun does Um, will I use it if I'm traveling? Yes. Will I use it in winter time in New Zealand? Yes Will I use it if there's a day when I can't get outside or it's really cloudy and miserable and I don't want to get outside? Yes, do I think it's helping me? Uh with circadian rhythm and alignment. Yes, do I uh know for a fact that's working? Um, It's hard to answer. I mean The science behind it is really solid So I'm going to do a blog article looking at some of that science I know the power of morning light and blue light for stimulating cortisol and suppressing melatonin I know all about that. So I understand that. Um, but that was more looking at the eye and the skin However, I am learning that the arphotoreceptors, you know in the air. So don't make sense Uh while I was in Finland as well, I spoke to some very smart people. Uh, very very smart people. Um Not related to the velky company or the human charger company and because this is a Finnish company Um, they were aware of it, you know, and some of them used it Well, they saw me using it and they were saying, oh, that's a really good product Like the the science behind it is solid like a lot of the locals use it. So that was kind of reassuring because um You know, again, these guys were independent. Uh, I mean it was a Finnish company and they were finished So there may be some bias there, but you know, there was switched on smart people And I don't think that'd just be you know hyping something up for the sake of it So learning that was good. My personal experience is now I can I've just shared them with you. Um And I there were a few other travelers, uh with me and they were using it You know one guy from America. He was using it every day And he swore by it as well. So that's my take on the human charger um Don't know what else to say check out the blog at elixfingers.com where I do a full review And look at a bit more the science check out my article on morning sunlight and why you need it for sleep Check out my article on blue light and why you need to block blue for sleep Make sure you get a pair of blue blockers as well Any questions you have about this device or if you're still with data, um, leave Leave your feedback or questions or comments in the feedback section or comment section below And I'll answer them or I'll try and find the answer to them if I don't know for sure If you do get it do understand that there is an app as well If the people from valkyre or human charger are watching this here's my tip for you Update the app. It's a little bit clunky a little bit outdated update the app and maybe put in like recommended sleep times as well For when you're traveling because I still had to try to figure out when's the best time to go to sleep and stuff Especially offline that would be really cool. They would just you know sit the app apart. Um, but yeah All right, so three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm going to get back to work and do some other stuff again Any questions? Let me know it's alex here from alexfocus.com if you're watching this on youtube Hit subscribe because I do a ton of reviews Check out my vlog if you haven't my authentic alex vlog vlog Uh, and you can see more about my life and you can even see how I'm using this on a day-to-day life Follow me on instagram alexfocus underscore coach. I share a lot of little stories and insights into my day as well and um That's all. Bye


Falcons are pretty good. Help me out here. They're better than what they used to be. Okay. Four and four, lead the NFC south. Barely. Sorry. Go ahead. Lead the NFC south. And they have a very favorable schedule coming up. Is there a chance? Don't say anything yet. Is there a chance that they can win the NFC south? Is there a chance? Just a chance. No. What are we talking about? So the Buccaneers. Do you think the Buccaneers... Yes. Have you seen the Buccaneers play? Yes, I have. It lost to the Panthers. That's true. They lost to the Panthers. They almost lost to the Falcons if it weren't for that roughing the password penalty. That was so... We're still not over it. Could have been five and three at this point. Yeah. Five and rushing yards in the NFL. And they only throw the ball maybe like, what? 20 to 25 times a game. They're relying heavily on their running game. And then once Cordero Patterson comes back from injury... Because by the way, this is all without Cordero Patterson. Yeah. Once he comes back, they're going to be dangerous. But you have no hope. You have no hope that the Falcons are going to win the south. It's hard, man. If something just keeps on hurting you... I know. Like, how do you... You're just excited. You're optimistic. You don't want to give up on them. I don't. Rise up. Then they fall down. That's the motto. Yeah. They have hurt my heart. Plenty of times. But going into the season, we've been so callous Falcons fans have. To the fact that... We've been through it all. Like, after 28 to 3, that was like... Yeah. That was it. That was the straw that broke the candles backwards. We've seen it all. Nothing else can hurt us at this point. The people I was watching that with started crying. Oh, yeah. That was me. That was me. Yeah. It was devastating. It was devastating. I remember that James White touchdown to win the Super Bowl as soon as he hiked the ball at Tom Brady did and then tossed it to James White. I didn't even have to watch it. I just put my head down. Oh, my gosh. Because I saw the formation and how everybody was running. I was like, this is going to be a touchdown right here. And I just heard your book. And the Patriots won the Super Bowl. Oh, my gosh. You get it. I don't know, bro. I mean, I'm looking forward to the Falcons next year. Yeah. I just don't know if... I think I have a problem with Mariota. I don't think he's consistent. Do you think he's leading well? Like, he has leadership over that team? I do. Taking over for someone that has left a mark in Falcons history. I'll say that. Okay. That's fair. I mean, I think he's done a very good job. And he's had to have that thoughts and the media in his ear as well. I was like, what do you think of Desmond Ritter? Like, you know, all this like pressure as well like Desmond Ritter could take my job at any moment. But he's playing to the point where like, no, there's no reason to. I get the inconsistencies because sometimes, yeah, it's... It looks like Mariota is really good. But then sometimes it's like, what are you doing here? Yeah. But I mean, I think he's really stepped up. It looked like the old, old Marcus Mariota from the early days of Tennessee playing right now in Atlanta. So... That's good. Getting this groove back. I like it. I think the Falcons have a good chance at winning the division. Do I personally, unbiased opinion think it's going to happen? I'm leaning like 60-40, like 40%. Yes it is, 60% no. So I'm kind of like leaning, you know, because I know... Towards the worst. Towards the worst, because I know what to expect. It's a Falcons, right? But we've been so callous like going to the season. We've had expectations for so long. It's like, oh, we have... We're only going to win four games for this whole season, let alone like four games, eight weeks in. But I'm just excited for the Falcons.  Being a Giants fan, I understand. Okay. But us, we're going to Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. You know, I will say, good call. I mean, we were talking about division winners, you said the New York Giants, you know, and right now it's the Eagles and the Cowboys, you know, neck and neck with them. But good call to say that the Giants were going to leave a mark and have a chance to... I said that. Yeah, you did. I said that. Leave your comments about the Atlanta Falcons, guys. Do you think that they're going to win the NFC South or do you think the Bucks, as bad as they looked, this offense is going to turn it around, this defense is going to turn it around and the Bucks are going to end up winning the NFC South? Or maybe it's the Carolina Panthers or the New Orleans Saints. I would say the Saints before the Panthers. Yeah, it's not going to be the Panthers, man. It's the offense.  Bro, like, have you noticed that? Walker always has his mouth open. You don't believe me? Go back and watch it. I've never noticed that. Bro, he look... Always has his mouth open. It's hilarious. The bottom lid just hangs. I've never noticed that. I've always noticed Patrick Mahomes. Go back and watch Patrick Mahomes walk. His walk towards the sideline is just like the most... I don't know if I could use the word sultry. What? It's like, hey, yo, what kind of walk is that? Okay. And then he's always like chewing the mouthpiece. And then whenever there's a penalty against the other team, he's always like... It's like, all right, we get it, man. And then his head is like silted this way and walking. Okay, whatever. Peter Walker, I'll look for that. Always has his mouth open. No joke.  Yes, he is. That's bad for you when you sleep. I want to hear your thoughts about the Atlanta Falcons. Do you think that they have a chance at winning the division or do you think it's going to be someone else?


So thank you so much Jane for that introduction, it is just a delight to be here and I just want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today. As you say, you know, my journey into this has been somewhat of a journey and really, you know, I got into the open movement because of my work on copyright reform in the European Parliament. I think, Matt, you described, you'd heard me speaking as an MEP about the trials and tribulations of European Union copyright reform. But it was really that experience, the disparity I saw of the huge lobby and one side of publishers in the music industry and the real absence of a voice from civil society. And I'm here in my little study today in Dunfermline. And Dunfermline is the home of the very first Carnegie Library and above every Carnegie Library, there's the words of let there be light, not just the light of knowledge, but the light of public spaces. And somehow I think, you know, sitting here running creative commons now and just to share with you that I was recruited to this time last year I was going through the recruitment process. I've never met my team. I've never met my board. I've worked completely remotely in distributors. We all do just now. So I have to be honest with you, I'm really excited about getting that vaccine and being able to meet people in person for the very first time. So that's something that I'm really, really looking forward to. But, you know, running this global not for profit that is spread across the US, Canada. We have a network of 40 chapters globally running that team across all these different places is just such a privilege. But one of the things I wanted to first, you know, kind of share the theme why I've chosen better sharing is because one of the first actions I took as the new CEO of creative commons was an intensive four month process of really, really thinking strategically and creating a new strategy for the next five years. And so we had an intensive four month process of talking to stakeholders, talking to our funders, our community, the board, the team supporters, and we published in December our new strategy where the central theme is better sharing. So what I thought and that's why I took the theme of my talk today to be better open sharing because that is the theme of our new strategy and where we want to be over the next five years. And if 2020 is taught as anything, there are still too many barriers to openness, and that there's an urgent need to create equity and access to knowledge across the internet, so that we can share and work together to face the challenges of today and those of tomorrow. So it's CC you want to explain what better open sharing looks like. How do we best serve the public and how do we do this. So what I thought I would do today is talk a little bit about creative commons who we are, what we do, why we do it. Touch on three strands, which I thought were particularly interesting, particularly as we've all faced the pandemic together in a lot of ways, climate and AI, and then to talk more about better open sharing. So if I go to my next slide about what is created COVID is who are we, we're an international nonprofit dedicated to building a thriving commons of knowledge and culture. And what we do and why we do it well we created these legal tools which are licenses to be able to open up culture and knowledge and content for everyone everywhere. And we created a globally recognized alternative to the model of all rights reserved copyright and why is open sharing important, I just think it's quite important to remind ourselves why open sharing advances the universal access to knowledge and cultures and just touched upon open sharing and the public interest fosters creativity, innovation and collaboration, and open sharing isn't itself an act of solidarity, but reflecting on the fact that this is our 20 year anniversary. And, you know, when we think about that, that that challenge that was faced 20 years ago, where the founders of CC were really grappling with a failed all rights reserved copyrights. And they try to do what for culture, what the GPL did for software, the licenses were not forced on a creator, but was a choice, and the author was choosing what to share and in what terms. And so with the licenses, the CC licenses and tools, we created a simple means for creators to opt into a more permissive model of sharing. And that's something which is really to be celebrated because we reflect on what we have achieved in the past 20 years and yes I only joined in August last year, but important to reflect about what we've achieved that today 2 billion pieces of content are accessed across the globe through CC licenses. So what started with a vision of Larry Lessig, Hal Abelson, Jamie Boyles and others and now grown to 48 chapters with a community in over 80 countries. So CC has become this global standard of content sharing. So if we think about that, and I'll go into that these three years in a second. What our current work really will focus on is in three key areas, not I'm talking about the main jet but about the three areas where we think we can make the difference and that's an advocacy reshaping the open ecosystem. So we want to look at the foundation enhancing the open infrastructure, not only are we the stewards of our licenses, the tools which we have to foster, but we have which we foster sharing with, but we want to look at sustainable and ethical sharing in the public interest to build on what we've achieved in the past 20 years. Capacity bill so transform institutions to make knowledge and culture heritage assets as openly accessible as possible through our work with glam and educational institutes. And this is so important as I've described and why open sharing matters. Oh my goodness. Did we not, you know, if we'd met, you know, a year, well, gosh a year and a half ago, we would never have thought we'd be in this situation. We've just all experienced off of COVID so I want to take a moment to think a little bit about what we'll go into climate and a second, but if anything is taught us about the importance of sharing, sharing knowledge has been the global pandemic and the challenges which we have lived through and continue to live through today. If we take equity and open education to begin with the global health crisis is crystallized the need for policies that support universal access to learning resources. After the pandemic hit, the vast majority of the world's learners found themselves out of school and or learning online. So open educational resources continue to be critical in providing easily accessible, high quality learning materials to learners of all types during this challenging time. And as learners begin to return to pre COVID educational environments. I believe there's an incredible opportunity for us to leverage this increased awareness of an experience with open education resources that came out of last year. So I'm really excited that Creative Commons has been really pivotal to the work of UNESCO's recommendation and open education resources to increase the adoption of open education content and practices and policies around the world. However, our ambition does not just rest in open education. We also want to work with GLAM institutions as galleries, libraries, archives and museums to open up collections just as we've done most recently with the Smithsonian. So open education and open GLAM are two domain areas where CC works where we want more open sharing, but we want to do it better with more people understanding our work and more people participating in creating better conditions for knowledge and information to be shared. Yet we know so much more has to be done. CC during the pandemic helped create the open COVID pledge now stewarded by the American University in Washington DC. And we need more organizations to free up their IP and nothing better illustrates that than the challenges we've currently seen around vaccine access. This week I was really pleased that both my parents got their second vaccine and that's just such a relief. And I know my friends who are in England who are the same age as me are now on the list to get their vaccine. And I know in the US just last week that vaccinations were open to over 16, not 60s, but 16s. And so my US team now are almost fully vaccinated. But then I speak to my chapters in Africa and know that, you know, it's grim about the situation there. So when I see how close we were to having open vaccines so that everyone could benefit from that knowledge. It's just really critical that we learn that this is not acceptable. And that's why open IP and vaccine access is critical to creating a more equal world. If there was a need to share better, then I think this is a case in point. But moving to climate. The reason I wanted to touch on this, I mean, I guess I'm a little bit biased living in Scotland because COP 26 as many of you know is set to be held in Glasgow. Now we don't know yet whether that will be physically or virtually. But climate change is the signature crisis of our time. And it could not be more clear that legal barriers to data research and IP that could be used openly by innovators in the fight against climate change. And could be could be used only and eliminated. So in short, similarly to the vaccine debacle IP law that restricts access to knowledge should not keep us from being able to win this important fight on climate change. So we need to open up IP and with COP fast approaching. We're reflecting the better sharing in our work on climate could leverage creative commons expertise and expand our proven approach in developing new methods and tools where that would be legal or technical and social to enable an interoperable layer of scientific research data and IP that could be used in the fight against climate change. These open science tools and works that are available are only useful if they're discoverable, technically accessible and translated into multiple languages well organized and presented in a clear and thoughtful manner. So as we reflect on the past for creative commons and we think about the future of what we would like to think is better sharing, we believe that climate has to be part of our thinking. And then turning just very briefly to AI. I mean, if I again reflect on my work in copyright, when I was working on copyright form in the European Parliament just seven years ago. We were talking as many of you do about text and data mining the right to read is the right to mine. And any copyright debate today would be focused instead, I believe on machine learning, which is you know is a subset of AI. Because where text and data mining is reading the subset of AI in terms of machine learning is not just reading but in its name, but learning. And it's interesting today that today marks the official publication of the EU's AI draft legislative proposal. So decisions made there will have global global implications because they will set the standards and norms for those wanting accountability and transparency in terms of AI. Now I read in the observer at the weekend on Sunday that you know that it was it was an academic who described AI is like how we should think about it as a pet and I, I tend to think it's it's it's much more complicated than that that it's both got the potential for good and the potential for great harm. But according to James Grimelman, if you count by the total number of words read, robotic reading is now overwhelmingly more common than human. And as Mark Lemley and Brian Casey know in a recent publication in a recent article, today some some 30 years after the rise of the robotic reader, all signs suggest another paradigm shift. This time with a new class of robotic robotic technologies is less focused on passively reading, reading information than an actively learning from it. We're moving from robotic readers to robotic learners, and we will need New York norms and standards if we are going to deal with this. And therefore, when it comes to copyright and comes from design, we need to think more actively about the rules and regulations that apply. Now, moving to thinking more about better open sharing, there's some of a paradox I keep on reflecting about proprietary systems and generative systems and thinking about how at one level, you know, creative commons is clearly in the generative and supporting generative norms. But when you think at the moment about how so many of us just actively share on proprietary platforms, which is nothing about sharing and all about selling. There is something quite, you know, needs to be explored about how even I keep on thinking that it's not sharing in the sense of you and I might think about sharing. But it's more showing and telling about some of the ways that we think we are sharing online. But going back to the importance of generative systems is going to be an important part of how we think about talking more about better open sharing. And, you know, and as we think about the license stewardship that is at the heart of what Creative Commons does, we have that real responsibility to ensure that the licenses are both fit for purpose, technically up to date, but also in terms of how they are translated across the world and accessible to more and more people. But there's something as well about how we look at the public domain. And there's lots of different conversations going on at the moment about the importance of the commons. Both the physical and virtual commons with climate and what we're facing today with the discussions around the internet and the open internet. But there is an element of how are we going to, as Ron Dalbert said about resetting the internet for civil society, how are we going to reboot the internet and how are we going to protect the public domain that belongs to us all. I've heard too often that content or a piece of art or whatever it is that should be in the public domain is not in the public domain for various different reasons. And even the situation where some things that are actually in the public domain have been trademarked and are no longer in the public domain. So that should be an outrage to us all. And it's something which I keep coming back to a campaign for the public domain. Maybe I like the iteration, but we have to do more to celebrate the public domain, but also make sure that we protect it. I thought I have a few questions. And I think we're going to post these in the chat. Is that right, Jane? Contribute to me. Tell me what we're doing with the questions. Yeah, absolutely. We're all here. Isn't it funny you're talking to, I'm talking to the screen and I'm waving to Jane from my little attic in Dunfermline, but it's lovely that we can do this. This is the celebration of open technology. Anyway, what does open sharing mean to you and your organization and how could CC help? And if there's one action to create better open sharing, what would you choose? And so that wasn't the two questions when I was talking, Jane and I think about a few questions before I was speaking. What could we do? And those are the two questions I thought were most appropriate. So if we put that in the chat, and then do you want me to answer the answers, Jane, just now or will we wait till the end? What do you want me to do? We've only got a question for you to answer. It's quite specific, but I wonder whether, actually let's pick that up now. So Aaron's asked about OERs. Yes, as you talked about OERs earlier on. So how can the usage of OERs in the GLAM sector further the agenda of open innovation within scientific community? Well, I think we're trying to develop our open GLAM program just now at Creative Commons and a strand of that has to be about open education. There's two parts. There's how you use the education piece more generally to allow more people to look at open collectives. So that's one aspect. But there's actually the very kind of almost taking people on that journey from close to open and how we do that. And I keep talking about this ladder of engagement that we need to have to bring people along with us. So I do think there's two ways. One is in terms of the content itself once it becomes open and how you put the education bit around that wrap around it, but also how we do that in the first place. So and and that is, you know, that's bringing, I guess, sometimes to quite different to me together. And that's co-creating and that's collaboration, but it's certainly on our agenda and what's the space as we go on to develop our open GLAM work. I'm really excited about it all. Thank you, Catherine. So you now have a chance to talk directly to and with Catherine. So if there's anyone who feels like they don't be brave, would like to join us either to answer one of those questions or to pose a question to Catherine. If you could just pop your hands up. It should say raise hand in the bottom of your screen. Pop your hands up by magic. We will bring you in. I can see that Wendy White has done that. So there you go. Wendy, do you want to introduce yourself? You're on mute, Wendy. Sometimes it takes a little while to come in. Hi, Wendy. She's on mute. Wendy, I need to take yourself off mute or somebody needs to take you off mute. There you go. Yeah, sorry, I was just stuck this end. Yeah, no, good to good to see everyone. I mean, I think just really interesting picking up on Catherine's comments she was making about co-creation, I think, which is going to be a really important way forward. And in terms of the question, what does open sharing mean to you and your organization? I think probably all of us in our institutional strategies have something which says something like changing the world for the better, sharing new knowledge and making a difference. So I think part of it is that's all true and very laudable. And of course, we would all support those aims. So what does that mean in practice? Yeah. And I think that the key thing here is what can we do to alter our research practice or our educational practice that really makes a difference. And I think co-creation is one of those. I don't think we've really solved yet the balance between what you might call central services and the embedded groups of educators or researchers in terms of how they go about their practice and the balance between those. So I think that that's one area for development. And the other, I think, is we haven't truly upstreamed some of the openness in some of our processes. So for research, that really needs to be at the point of the research question or for education at the point of the curriculum design. And I think maybe the improvements in terms of what does open sharing mean, maybe slightly different. So for research, I think ethics. Yeah. You know, if the COVID situation is taught as anything is that ethics is absolutely central. And that's, you know, at the nub of some of the things Catherine was also mentioning about, you know, IP and, you know, the lack of appropriate resolution there. If we upstream the ethics discussions more and are more engaged in those then openness should be part of the ethics, not a separate thing. And the licensing and the sharing should also be part of that ethical concern before other things even go forward, not at the end as an afterthought, now we're doing the open bit, you know, right at the end. And for education, I think the routine could potentially be around the diversity and inclusion discussions again, which absolutely should be upfront in curriculum design or any of the kind of educational scoping. And again, the openness should be part of that discussion in terms of the inclusivity. So, so yes, I think that's what open sharing should should be about and what we could aspire to improve, I think. Yeah. If you're, if you're particularly interested in open software and ethics as well, this might be of interest, one of our podcasts, we've created a new podcast series at Creative Commons came out in February. And Coraline, who is really leading the kind of thinking around ethical software and licensing, she did a brilliant podcast that might be of interest to some of you here today, so please, you know, it's open minds of the Creative Commons podcast. And we've now got the latest speaker actually was Lila Bailey from the Internet Archive and there's something that she touched upon with that Wendy, which was about how are we going to archive content that is now hidden behind proprietary systems such as, you know, if you look at Netflix creating content and, and, and the Amazon Prime and all these, there's nothing in a DVD, there's nothing, it's all, you know, and will that go where does that go to. So there's something about the next 20 years that there's ethical questions in so many different ways that are there. Anyway, I just wanted to highlight that podcast by Coraline. Yeah, no, it sounds interesting. Thanks Catherine. And I would suggest that everybody has a little look at the, the, the, the creative commons website I have say it's a long time society, it's an awful lot of excellent resources on there. They're great. They're great. I think Lawrence has put something in the chat, which I imagine resonates with a lot of us on this call around open sharing what open sharing means to us is that it's by access for our unique and distinctive collections which are currently hidden in special collections and there's a whole heap of questions around that really, you know, the, you know, around ownership and the ability actually to, because there's an awful lot of hidden collections that we aren't able to make open. Yeah. And there's, there's, you know, there's something that we are, you know, clearly, we were created to really, you know, promote open sharing the value of open sharing. And that still is our bread and butter that is what we are about. But there are things we never thought about 20 years ago, like issues around traditional knowledge like things around, you know, sacred, you know, things that might not be in. So there's something about, you know, our learning over the past 20 years and how we're thinking about the next and acknowledging some of the things which, you know, we are particularly as we are going to be expanding our Glam programme to think about how we're going to address some of those issues. So watch this space. We're only in our early stages, but we're going to get somewhere with it, which I think would be helpful to those that are thinking about what can be and not be open when we're trying to encourage and nurture and help organisations with collections to go open and be accessible.  I see we have someone from your neck of the woods and you might know. I just did the computer science department at lunchtime. Talking about creative comments. So it's nice to see you. So I'm Katie Eagleton. I'm the director of libraries and museums at St Andrews. And I thought this was a good point to come in on something that sort of came up in a meeting I was in yesterday, which is on this point about digitising our library archive and museum collections. My hunch is that across a lot of our sector. There's a generally good warm feeling towards open sharing, but then it hits the commercial reality of the need to generate income for institutions and that's going to be an even bigger imperative post COVID. But my question is how can we get better as a sector of showing the impact and benefits of sharing beyond the potential often relatively modest income you can get from image licensing to get past that quite narrow argument. Yeah. I think that there's the, well, firstly, showing who's doing it successfully and how it works. So sharing best practice and why that also, you know, it's interesting to say about talking to someone yesterday about it and and thinking, particularly those organisations in the global who might not have opportunity. So how can we show that this is possible? Because, you know, having an audience of the world for things that are in your collections that are meaningful, add and build on knowledge because no knowledge comes out of other knowledge is built on knowledge and we all, you know, go was it sitting the shoulders of giants because you know the nature of how we create and back to co create things. So I think there's shared sharing best practice showing how it's done and done effectively and moving away slightly from, you know, some of that commercial argument to saying about the public argument and the public interest, and how actually it will benefit you if you do that, not less. So, so there's just so many arguments Katie, and I'll come back to you at some point. Yes, with with with some more of that but we are actually really thinking a lot about that these are the arguments that anybody that's working and opening up collections and thinking about how you're doing it resources are key right. How are we going to do that more effectively? How do we make it more cost effective? How do we make it easier? Because applying licenses and attribution can be tricky, you know, very tricky. So how can we make that easier those processes and, and so there's lots of thinking, but only by working together will be able to do that and just think what we could do together just these people I mean I'm looking at how many people are on this call, and just thinking we all did stuff this together, my goodness, what, what, what, what openness we could create together, what knowledge and what new knowledge would we be opening to the world by just opening certain collections that are just pivotal to build on an opportunity with this just tremendous. Yeah, I totally agree I think in a way though there's there's a fundamental starting point which is about trying to persuade people to get beyond the finance only bottom line, which is where we have to work together because otherwise it will come down to the income line. Yes, I mean, higher education under COVID it's been a challenge, not just a challenge, it has been, I mean, it's turned on this and I'm just a petri but all of you who, who work, you know, in universities who have just gone above and beyond what a year a year is like any other and, and, you know, and now we're slightly coming out of this right so, you know, and, you know, it's, I think, if ever there's an argument to be made about better sharing and openness then maybe now is the time to do that, but it takes a culture change, and it's more a culture change often than the resources. Okay. Thank you. Nice to see you Katie. Um, so we've got Bertha now who's just put a comment about the sound being bad, but maybe maybe we'll be okay. I can certainly hear you. Do you want to introduce yourself? Yes, we can just hear you. Do you want to have a go? Yeah. Yeah, it sounds kind of broken. I don't know if everyone else has a similar experience or it's just my network, I have no idea. Go for it. Okay. Thank you. It's a very interesting discussion and one of the issues that I've been thinking lately is about translation and languages because obviously this is a very local discussion, local in the sense of this is happening in English and how can we, you know, make things accessible for people whose language is not English. That's one thing, but it also chooses to speak their own ideas and share in their own language because there are cultures that speak. It has a specific meaning, so that's my question on how the directions will go on open access and any kind of accessibility. We are very lucky Bertha with our chapters. Often when I write something or put something up, it might be my Mexican chapter will translate it into Spanish. In fact, there was, I think our strategy was translated by our Turkish chapter, you know, and it was just, you know, it was in the goodness of people, so I'm wanting to kind of share that. But the issue about translation, there's a couple of things we think about creative commons because I'm just very mindful that my community is global. As I say, we've got 48 chapters, people in actually 80 countries who are part of our network and platform work and community, and there's, you know, more in terms of the broader community. And so we think a lot about, well, what can we do with technology to make translation happen? So that's one thing. How can we be more inclusive in meetings, particularly where English is not the majority first language spoken? So how can we do that more effectively? And I think we've got a lot to do with that. But the translation of our licenses in terms of creative commons has been both something that was driven by people in local communities, but there's so much more that we've got to do with that. So I think you're absolutely right that language is still too often a barrier. And we need to be mindful of that particularly because we're thinking about that kind of global reach that we, you know, that we, that many of us look towards. And if we're just looking at that through the prism of the English language, then we lose out. So sometimes in the United Kingdom, we're prisoners of the English language because so few of us speak fluently another language. And I have to say that when I was in the European Parliament for 20 years is something I absolutely miss is hearing other languages spoken. And I'm so privileged to be in an international organization where I do hear other languages and other cultures. And I'm doing that, but you know, just there's something about being able to understand and appreciate and value the point you're making. And I totally agree with you. Okay, so we have another comment about translations are so it's obviously very, it's important, very important. I wondered if you felt like you could make comments, Catherine, because I can't follow all of them because they're going into chat and not into questions. They always does, because I was chatting about the often works exception that disappeared, I believe, or is I do feel that you can comment on that. I think that, well, I've worked on often works. Yeah. I mean, my stuff in the European part was more to do with platform liability and article 13, which is the gift that keeps on getting because article 17 is still not resolved and it still won't be resolved. But the, I mean, if I give the example, maybe this is, you know, helpful not helpful, but the European House of History was doing a kind of the most the 100 most important books, the European Union, and only five of them, five out of 100 could be accessible, because they could not find the cop that the owner of the copyright of the others and therefore could not make that accessible. And that means the history of the European Union is not accessible digitally. I mean, this is just, there's something wrong about this and there's something that, you know, that we can change and I was talking to somebody. I mean, this was in the space about thinking about control digital lending and, and these kind of issues. But I mean, this is an extreme, extreme thought but, you know, you know, we just passed the piece of law in Scotland about organ donation for your, you know, if something happens, your organs will be automatically unless you say otherwise. And so, we, this, that should be, you know, things that are in, you know, books that we can, that should be, you know, accessible, taken as, it won't say taken as read but there's something about opting in systems and, and, and ways that we can do things differently, so that that knowledge is lost. And the worry is that, you know, we have, people can publish all the time now, but it's hard to be read. And we need to have a place where, where, where works can be accessible and not just squirreled away and not accessible to, to the broader human being, humankind. So, I mean, I'm digressing a little bit, but, but, but I think that there's a lot that we need to explore in the UK now that we've left the European Union, particularly over copyright and what that means in terms of are we falling some of the things that were, we were, we were to follow because of the European Union and there's some, still some questions, still some real tensions that have still to be resolved and clarified. And, you know, my thoughts are that, that often those, those are opportunities to kind of, you know, challenge issues and get things, but they're also challenges and it takes, you know, a real unified voice and opinion and coming together to be able to make it almost a, a campaign on some of these things to ensure that knowledge is, is open for us all. Yeah, which is what we, we kind of have that going on a little bit in the chat. We've also got some really nice shared pieces of work that are in the chat, which you might want to have a look at at some point, probably not at the moment. So has added around, so translation is a biker process, which we, which, yeah, we need as much as possible. I wonder if I could have, look, yeah, so Stuart Debson said, yes, we need a movement. I wonder if I could ask the question.  And, and, you know, if creative commons is saying any differences in the generational in the generations. Yeah, I keep, well, yeah, I've got two team members who are about to literally give birth.  In terms of how we look at, I, I, you know, creative commons was created 20 years ago and we've moved on to today celebrating 20 years. And I do think that all organizations need to think about young people and bringing new people on board. And that is the kind of healthy way. And I think there's a new argument to be made about why open is so important. So 20 years ago, it was failed sharing online, creating an alternative all rights copyright. Today it's thinking about better sharing. How can we do things keeping being open but doing it even more intentionally. And I think that's really important.  I look at how they consume content. And it just, you know, I'm just here with you. I mean, there was a YouTuber I had, I kind of heard of. He just, he's science, he does scientific experiments. My 15 year old really respects him. And he did an incredible YouTube video about his autistic son, which was really moving and really moved my 15 year old. And I just, and there was something about the power of that, you know, the power of being able to share something to promote understanding to be able to, on a very sensitive matter. And I thought that that was really, that's a powerful example of how you use that form to be able to make a difference. And the other side of some of this is that you're kind of like, your data, if you're sharing stuff on some of these platforms, it's selling, you know, we go on to Netflix and algorithms now choosing bring back blockbuster.   But I do think that we should take that. Certainly my son's generation is much more mindful about how they're using technology is pretty astute with it. Compared to say, maybe an older generation who believes some of the stuff that they see in Facebook. So there's, there's, there's, I think there's hope with a new generation about thinking about content, about thinking about what's important and being a little bit more astute about content and how it's created. I mean, I just, I don't have a. No, I think you're saying exactly what I was thinking. I just think it's a key. There is a key point, but we now have someone else who's joined us. Max, I think you can, I want to introduce yourself. Yeah, you can take your. Thanks. Yeah, I'm Max Ward. I'm based in London. I, I've been with Creative Commons for a very long time. I'm one of the founding members of the Creative Commons UK chapter as well. So, and, but I had one of the other hats I wear is I'm an adjunct lecturer and I also do some research supervision at the university here in London. And I wanted to bring up sort of the other one other question around ethics and sharing an open, an openness within the education and research context. And that is that every time I try to, you know, every time I'm pushing sort of trying to push the envelope in terms of the introduction of open practices within the, within my institution and this is, I would say it's not just my institution. There are very similar conversations with researchers and academics across borders everywhere. The issue of the ethics of what's known as academic misconduct always comes up in the context of open. And I think, you know, the, the, the issue of really redefining what it means, sort of moving away from a pure citation based to more of a, about the role of attribution, especially in the context of creating derivative works, or, you know, partial copying, if you like, of openly licensed material and the fact that within the pure research academic construct at the moment, there really isn't any acceptance of that. So I was just wondering if that's something that Creative Commons, I mean, I think this is kind of actually both to RLUK as well as Creative Commons as a question. So it might not be, you know, something that you can obviously talk to directly in the context of what Creative Commons as an organization is looking at doing, but just, we're just really interested in hearing your thoughts on this in general, and whether you know you have any ideas or approaches that you think might help move the needle in this conversation. I think that sometimes what we are conscious about is to ensure the best application and attribution of when people are using the licenses and how we can do that better and more effectively, and make it easier. And I think that keeps coming back to us about how can we simplify, how can we make sure that we're doing this in the best way. That doesn't address your question about the perception of academic misconduct. I think that's a bigger, but I think whenever there's something that's a change, so trying to do something more openly, and applying the licenses is something that now is part and parcel of whether you've got a grant, you've got money to do something. You know, if you're going to put your research up, you have to do it, and it sees your license, you have to do it effectively, you have to do it the correct way. I think if you do it in the correct way and do it effectively, then this idea that somehow there's a hesitation somehow. This is about the learning experience of applying the licenses effectively, as well as showing how having that information out there reachable and accessible to more to build on that knowledge and accessibility is surely where we are in terms of trying to have knowledge, build on knowledge, and create a better world that we all want to see. But I think that some people who are not for that change and want to resist it. It's very easy, I would think, to talk about misconduct or use certain things to kind of, you know, so there's, I think there's a job of work actually, possibly around a kind of public relations facing part about saying why this is important how to do things and certainly thinking about how we can always improve in the licenses and make them more easy to use. And, you know, that's something we're very conscious about because of our responsibility for stewardship. So what you're saying Max resonates with me and Annette has put something in the chat about the positive response from research students making theses openly available use in CC licenses and it is that, it's that approach, that positive approach that is helpful and we've seen, you know, early career researchers have their own challenges but certainly around creation of theses and how they put together and understanding about contents and what can be licensed and what can't be licensed is a really positive way of working with creative commons in higher education. But it's tricky and it's difficult and it's something that we are challenged by every single day advocacy around openness but it's really nice to talk about it, not in relation to compliance. Is that alright Max? Yes, thanks. Yeah, as you said I mean it is, I don't think there is a simple answer to this but it is, it is a conversation that I look forward to sort of seeing grow and become more prominent within, within academia generally. Thanks Max. Thanks very, thanks very much. I've got a question that might lead on quite nicely Catherine because I think we've got a few minutes from which, how can we best contribute to stewardship of a public commons? Can we invest better in collective non-for-profit approaches?  And then you think about the virtual commons and you think about the public domain, what is ours, what is to be built on, and how precious that is. So just as Carnegie did all those years ago, giving us a physical commons that we still benefit from today, how are we going to make sure that the public domain that belongs to us all and is so integral into the lives that we lead because we need it because it's digital, how are we going to do this. So there's some really interesting work being done by the panelist who is looking at that in New York and it's like civic signals, they're doing some really, the Professor at UMass Amherst to Ethan Zuckerman who's doing also really interesting work in that kind of space. And I do think there's something about, look, you know, John Mew, sorry, I'm feeling very Scottish when I'm talking to you, I'm really sorry, like, you know, John Mew, the national parks, going to America making the first national parks and then we've got our national parks and we've expanded those national parks. There's something about, you know, like that, that is ours, and it's our space, and it's ours to protect and it's not protected at the moment. The public domain is under pressure and I keep coming back to thinking about a campaign to a promote the public domain, but also think about how we build upon preserve work on it, you know, there has to be something in the next few years that we really take on board with this. And really, it's for all of us to do, because going back to that generative versus proprietary stuff, I mean, the generative internet, that was the basis of what we thought would be, and now we see all these proprietary systems that were built upon the generative internet, and now they're protecting their interests. And so there's something that we have to do and think constructively how we work together to achieve this goal. Okay, I think that is a really nice, but I know you had a final slide, do you feel like you want to finish us with that final slide? Sure. So it was just a little bit about kind of how you could get involved with Creative Commons, many of you already are, but it's just, you know, in terms of that idea around better open sharing and what we can do, thank you so much for those ideas and contributions and greatly, greatly appreciated. And please come and join our community. We've got the Education Copyright and Glam platforms. We are being developing our advocacy license innovation and capacity building with our new strategy. We've also got the CC certificates, which we call CC certs, and the boot camps. We've got CC certs in education and in for librarians, and we're developing a new CC cert for just the Glam sector itself, so that's quite exciting for us.  That was really what we had such success with that. And the Open Minds podcast. I draw your attention to this because it's just if you're interested in this space and about about the open ecosystem. As I said, we had Coraline talking about ethical licenses. We had Sheila Bailey from the Internet Archive talking about the challenges, thinking about archives, what are the challenges that we're going to face with all of this. And we've just interviewed Audrey Tang, who's the digital minister in Taiwan, who's just wonderful about open data and the importance of openness and what they've been doing in Taiwan. So, you know, I just draw your attention to that. And then Summit is in the 2024th of September. Please just look out for, if you fancy making a contribution, presenting at Summit, please get involved because it'd be just lovely to have you there. Look, I just wanted to say, and I think my last, very last slide, here's, you know, my email address, that's my Twitter stuff. Do you want to share that on the screen so we can see it? I realise I'm off there. No, you're all right. No, you bought it. I'll tell you if it comes up. Oh, sorry, sorry. There we go. Yeah, it's just coming up. There you go.