Hang tight. We're going to get started here very shortly Monday March 23rd calling the architecture review board to order first on the agenda, so I'd like to thank everyone for dealing with the technical upgrades that we're trying to work through this afternoon to accommodate the current health issues and we have a number of people Calling in in addition to present here at City Hall And because of that we will do a roll call, but before we do Charlie Wig is a new member on the board and would like to acknowledge that and do Quick introductions, maybe just as we go through roll call you can see who we are So I am Joe Clark all the person suboglio is here Jerry Jones You're online. Thank you Dick Lindy here Pam Langen Don't think Pam is joining us Bob Heimerle and Charlie Wig here Thank you And if I could have everyone please stand for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all and I Under item 1.3. Are there any potential conflicts of interest to be brought to the board's attention? Hearing none. I had moved to item 2.1 approval of the minutes from our March 29th board meeting We have a motion and a second from dick any further discussion Hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye aye opposed Minutes are approved. Thank you Item 3.1 our first discussion item for this afternoon is the resubmitted of the new oscar apartments at 1436 south 15th 15th Street if the Presentation crew could come to the podium so we can hear the microphone and So the folks on the phone can hear you also and if you can just give us a quick update on what's changed And we'll take it from there Thrilled to be here seeing you all again wish it wasn't for revisions to this project It was a fun field trip with my 16 year old a lot of good highway driving time. So So the reason we're here today if you can go to the second page of this So we actually were at a fully designed hundred percent CD set of drawings for the project that was previously Approved so what has happened is since we first started working with the site We obviously were aware of some of the Geotechnical history with the bluff that used to be on the site trying to work with the previous owner Trying to work with Kohler as much of the Phil was from them and then working with Wisconsin DNR Through the county's EPA grant and really understanding kind of the history of this thing which is extensive So this slide is very important. So the red That you see on the south side of the site that you have an interior finer dashed line and then the exterior Thicker dashed line. So the conclusion of everything a year worth of this investigation was that you can't build multifamily within that red area And any other state that I've ever worked in the local DNR. That's in variants you could get all of our Environmental consultants we use feel the same way Wisconsin DNR does not like to give variances, which is fine We you know are not begrudging about that, but it forced this redesign so then we were at a spot where we were Rejiggering the site to try to make everything work Which is how we've gotten to where we are today So if you recall the previous design had all detached exterior garages We have moved all of the parking underneath the buildings So all three of these buildings have fully underground, you know, 10 feet underground Access control temperature controlled Parking we lost eight units. We were at 248 before we're at 240 now So that is the genesis to where we've gotten. It's obviously been an expensive redesign. We've lost quite a bit of time You know, we're still working with HUD as our lender and they're amicable to all of this So you have all of the normal information in your packet that you normally would have Steve very intelligently requested that they put this document together. So you have kind of a side-by-side right in front of you The the conclusion of our previous exercise which included all of your conditions And approved plans to what we're doing today We did previously have four buildings and now we have three if you recall the previous plan had the one large building and Three smaller buildings now all three buildings are essentially the big building. So there's no more of the small building Otherwise exterior facades of the building are the exact same intent of what you approved before I brought the materials back This is the exact same box of materials you approved before none of that's changed. We still have 50 percent Balcony coverage facing the main roads like the city had requested and we agreed to before There wasn't question on building height and interpretation So I think the technical detail that's in the document The short answer is the building is the same height as it was before except at the ends obviously where We're sloping down to get the ramps into the grads. So at the ends you have more exposed foundation Which could be interpreted as additional height Our interpretation if you do, you know average exterior Height one the linear of the building gets with when what we were before The other change that I believe you all would care about is previously We were trying to save the building that's in the northeast corner of the site It's currently a garage building that was built believe in the 40s or 50s This redesign does not allow for that to stay. So we're now tearing that building down, but the current plan Contemplates a salvaging material from that building and from the building on the southeast corner So salvaging brick the historic timbers inside the building and the roof trust system And repurposing those materials to build A pavilion similar to this just with some precedent imagery of what we're thinking It's hard to know exactly what that'll be until we actually get an inventory exactly what's in those buildings But it'll be roughly 1200 square feet Still creating the pocket park as an amenity for the bike trail that we had before those The intent of all of those things has stayed the same So we can I don't know how you want to go through this we can go through this has The previous site plans previous elevations Um, and then obviously the new ones also that are before you I think it's been in the package. So hopefully everyone's had a chance to review and formulate questions So I would open it up for questions and I'll start The exposed facade at the parking level underneath. What is the material there? So we have not defined exactly how we were treating it because we partially went down the conversation with you guys Because we see it differently in different places, but it's obviously at this point exposed concrete I mean, it's part of the foundation wall system Um, it can be painted I think that you'd have to do it correctly if you tried to continue down the hardy board material That's doable also. I I don't have a strong preference that would not stay exposed concrete. I can tell you that But we partially wanted your all feedback because I assumed you would have an opinion You do have that condition obviously on all six ends Okay Would it be possible to make that concrete exposed aggregate? Um, I don't know why it would it be we definitely talked to the contractor and see if that was an option So we could have some color to that Concrete yeah, I'm happy to ask them whatever your all's preference is I think that there there's a cost to finishing it no matter what we just want something that will Hold up well over time and wear well and you know not be Something that's unpleasant to look at About that is definitely an interesting idea for sure Fortunately, we've come to know a concrete guy pretty well here in town. So Yes So gerry, please go ahead. This is gerry. Um, just as an fyi. I I'm only getting like every other word of everyone speaking So I probably won't have too much input from this and just so your work Okay, thank you. Do you have any other specific questions that we can address for you? Uh, no, no, I from what I can do, I think everything's on the table so far. So no questions from mine yet Great. Thank you other questions or comments otherwise thoughts for the The exposed foundation at the parking decks Uh, dick had suggested possibly an exposed aggregate Uh, it sounds as if everyone's in agreement that some sort of treatment there would be Preferable to just absolutely raw concrete That to me seems like something that could be left for you to figure out What your preference would be and then bring that back for staff review Can you bring the same bottom color of material to the aggregate so it doesn't look like a straight building? Um, because right now you go white brown white, right just kind of yeah, I would think so looks cheap Yeah, you know I bring that bottom brown material straight down that would be Extractable Yeah, we're open Our my previous experience was that you all actually you're good at engaging in kind of the discourse of you know What it's going to work? Well, so I figured I could show it some way and then it would probably end up Having a conversation about what it was going to be so we might as well just have the conversation I guess as as I'm looking at the, uh, perspective that shows the corner of the building with that foundation exposed That material goes under different colored materials of the building So trying to match one piece it's going to then clash Other pieces and it's probably not financially feasible to do multiple different color or material Treatments to that unless it's just paint Um, so picking something that's maybe Complementary to everything and just running that throughout Seems like an efficient way to do it. Yeah If there was a paint product that is a more robust product that would seal the foundation and hold up over time And then they could match it to the darker brown color. Would that be an option? color-wise if it matched and if then it It's kind of made to deal with meeting up with the ground and dealing with snowing against it and such So leaving the concrete and just painting it with a good paint And then matching the colors of the material above it To me that would be acceptable as long as it's well maintained On if it fades it all touching that up to keep it consistent other thoughts from the board Charlie, this might be a good one for you. Yeah, I'd rather not see hearty on that part because it's going to fail I'd rather not see hearty on any of the building It's got problems and it's not user friendly with silica dust and the new rules. So The fact that you picked it over lp smart side, which has the exact same look doesn't make sense to me So i'm not positive that we'll end up with hearty. We're looking at the other choices You know, I think it'll just be a still have to be positive when you come This is my first meeting. It'll be a cementious product The hearty is what we've shown you today, but I think they're comparable products between the different manufacturers that look exactly the same that between lp and hearty to address that point charlie the Typically things are submitted with actual product samples if they deviate from that the request is to run that past staff If it's a close enough match and staff feels it's acceptable They'll be able to approve that if there are concerns they would then bring it back to us again All right. Yeah, we've had more issues from the installation side up here I think, you know, um the further north we find that we go There's just lots of a preference for people want to work with the hearty product. So I think it's really partially who our contractor ends up choosing to do that scope Do you think that that paint option would be a reasonable approach then and I think it's a better idea Honestly, I know it's the cheapest idea, but as long as you maintain it like suggested about the board That's critical. Not that you buy the cheapest paint you can find. No, it wouldn't be We're a long-term holder. So that just kind of pennywise pound foolish for two years from now Sorry, I don't know much about your business. So yeah, I know our intention is to to build it and own it. So But we're agreeable to that and can just agree to that being a solution Then we're comfortable about going in as a condition comments concerns from the board I'd make a motion to approve as presented with staff review on the The exposed foundation we have a motion and a second from dick Any additional discussion Jerry anything from your end nothing Right. So we have a motion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed Motion is approved. Thank you. Pam. Is that you on the line too? Great. Thank you Right. So that was approved steve. I believe the motion was for submittal for staff approval. So I think that was approved. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Take care of yourselves during these crazy times. Thank you And we'll take a brief break while we shuffle presentation parties in the council chambers All right, if everyone is ready we'll move to item 3.2 the proposed addition to rewind bar located 1002 michigan avenue Uh, we are trying to do this so folks can hear on the phone So please use the microphone if you can give us an introduction and brief description on what you're proposing Absolutely. So my name is tyler chapeau with the chapeau construction the general contractor for this proposed project Um, what we're posing is approximate 455 square foot addition to the existing buildings west side That would take over their existing patio area for seating of their exterior bar Um, this would enclose the staff member that would be sitting directly in this new egress path Um, that would be counting patrons exiting and entering Um, it would also shield off that back patio from the street side of michigan avenue Uh, it was noted somewhere in the package that The current building is over the uh property line And that the addition would be set back a foot. Is that correct? That's correct on the survey that's in the packet now that um was updated And so the existing building Rest one foot into the michigan avenue right away And the new building is proposed to be at the property line So it will step back one foot compared to what's there existing And I think the current plans and elevations don't really show that offset The current ones do not. Um, we had our survey done and that showed us a little late after the original plans were were made So we'd have to update that prior to pulling a building permit And is the thought just to wrap that cornice element back at that one foot jog? Correct. Okay One of my comments had been that the the cornice element as it gets extended for the additional length um Seemed to be getting very long and kind of sandwichy Uh with multiple stripes But I think that one foot offset if the the steps to the cornice Wrap around that foot that'll actually break it up nicely. Yeah, that'll wrap around there It'll be on the self elevation of the addition and with on the west as well. Yeah On that property line good Other questions or comments from the board? And I just had a question on the elevate south elevation It looks like that wrapping of the cornice doesn't happen on the far west end. Yeah, that is the old Drawings that were not updated since we had the um, okay.  Is it possible that that same red column could be where that brick column is Yes, that is a possibility We just did this as the red columns the material would be a pvc trim material, which is what we're looking to make that um The bottom two and a half foot wanes coating underneath those windows. So we're looking to match that Um, we could really cover the brick with that as well Good dick the The brick column is existing and then that first column to the west the red one is also existing Okay And it looks as if there's some nice detailing on that brick pier Just looking at that on google maps right now I don't know if we can zoom in on that previous image at all steve the um The picture or the that one if we can zoom in just a bit there Or maybe a lot In our opinion it matched up with the the brick above it quite nicely and you know from the addition that would be Mainly and mostly a pvc and wood type building instead of a brick with the original building So I don't know if you can see on the screen dick that first pier there is some uh Like corbelling an accent piece at the top below the cornice line Um, it just looks like a foreign element in that elevation Oh, this might be One area I want the board to be aware of if I may is that the owner of rewind now is without any revenue streams So the additions to this project may in fact force him to not move forward with this um Anything that we're adding He's asking for forgiveness on the green siding on the east side of the building You know given the revenue streams that and if we were able to Adjust replacing the bottom two and a half foot wainscoting on the existing buildings south elevation and east elevation That would be much appreciated. Um, but I'm sure that would have to go through board review That's what I was looking at too. Thanks chan So dick, I don't know if that changes your thought on turning that pier red or not It does assist, but I'm still convinced that it would look better overall if that were the red instead of the brick And are you thinking to cover it with? A ramp or just paint it What is the red material It's a pvc. It's almost like a plastic lumber material. Um, that's pretty easy to fasten paint Keep up with maintenance. Um, very durable. So that's where we're looking to install and follow that same wainscoting that two and a half foot Trim along the bottom under side or underneath the windows We'd have that material that way can really hold up to to snow salt shoveling things of that nature in the future And if you uh, you would have to take the corval off in order to make it look like a piece of red vertical board Correct and you can do that. Okay We would there would be some socket involved. I would have to take a look at a closer look at it to see how that would be What's that? Is a brick pillar structure. That would also have to be determined, but at this time I it's not could you remove it and just not have one in that area? It's possible. Yes my safety cost Then removing it and installing. Yes, we get rid of the look that he doesn't like which I agree I mean or possibly is it possible to paint it if if it comes down to absolutely requiring that But then again, I just want to note again Revenue streams that he does not have. Yeah Other than that, I think I like the design Jerry and Pam Any comments from the phone lines? I'm here Any thoughts or questions on this submittal connection? I can hear Most but not everything that you're saying so I'm just trying to hang on to what I can't hear Okay, thank you Marcus Chad Thank you This is more of a technical question since they have to resubmit plans. Are we charging them the hundred dollar resubmittal fee? the only time The only time they get charged a resubmittal fee is if the application like the last one hasn't been here in some time So so anything that gets resubmitted is just a request from the board to have them come back So no, they're not charged a fee at that time good. Thank you Is anyone ready to make a motion? The original so the west side of the addition you're referring to yes the original Idea with that west side as it would be right on the property line making that a fire rated wall So we were just going to prevent that from being glass at all When we had the survey done we found out we had additional approximate foot beyond the fence line Correct me if i'm wrong it's on it's noted on there somewhere what we actually had So what we wanted to do is just leave that foot Just for possible green space or landscaping if needed So and that would force that wall not to be a firewall So and we just kind of left it as we originally had it in the plans was to not include a window in that for that reason And I believe dick has a question Uh, no question. I'm moving that the That the project be approved as submitted with the correction Of the one brick column be made into a column that looks like the others second We have a motion and a second any further discussion And our Jerry and pam are you clear on that motion? Second I didn't hear all of the original motion The original motion was to approve as submitted But to do something to the brick pier on the south elevation To make it look more like the other red piers Okay, thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Steve um and then Resubmitted with did did you want something with the cornice on the offset? to That's a good point. We should have that resubmitted to staff with the corrected plans and elevations showing that one foot offsets But I think as it's described everyone understands what should be submitted or how it's going to be constructed So that being the case all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed All right, great. I think we are approved with that one. Thank you very much and we will Get to our next group. Yeah, that's nice. Tyler I think I think the one nice thing there. I don't know if it was mentioned or not, but that east Elevation is being changed To a siding that's more brownish in nature. So that'll look nice along 10th street, too Thanks, Tyler. All right, we are moving to item 3.3 Well, we make sure we're complying with all the cdc requirements So we are moving to the uh Resubmiddle of the new transpo mini storage buildings at 12 10 south 10th street And if uh for the presenters if you can use the microphones or the folks who are on the phone Can hear as well and I believe we've got uh ron becker calling in on the phone also so with that if you reintroduce yourselves and Give us your updates, please very good. Steve pesky distinctive design studio. I'm here joined with uh john becker from transpo mini storage and ron on the phone Uh from our previous um discussion and submittal, uh, we've made some changes in regards to Uh, some of the comments that were made by the board and uh specifically dick lindy at that time And also with working with the city of reduction of size of the building Increasing some of the setbacks some of the proportions Reduced slightly overall Mainly starting out with the kentucky kentucky avenue elevation of the center element being raised and adding another brick Column element along this facade Other major items uh that were adjusted from previous conversation were along the alleyway of introducing new or introducing a different color panel along that facade to break up the long elevation So adding five elements along that elevation So questions or feedback charlie. We had quite a go around with this lifetime They've done quite a bit to improve the the aesthetic of this it was More scaled back than this last time around They have added quite a few elements We had also asked on that kentucky avenue elevation To do something to Increase the massing at the middle of the building and do something just to give it a little more Break to the the horizontal line of the roof line. It was very long and continuous there Appears they've done that this question on the alley elevation The spacing of those brick pier or the the alternate material piers Aren't consistent. Is there a reason for that? Uh, we've resolved that I think that was an error in this set of plans that came through So it's four equal siding panels with the brick between It's actually siding darker siding darker siding in between. Yes, but equal spacing across the four late colors siding elements So dick I would bring that one back to your attention that that puts the darker sided element right in the middle again alley side correct I have an updated one if you'd like to see Sure For those on the phone. We're now being shown a paper exhibit that i'm afraid we can't share with you So you have changed the spacing there's an additional dark element So it is following the classical order Dick to to not put a column in the middle I don't see any difference Here this is what was there before Okay, this guy was going to be centered. So now it's like this. Yep. Okay. Thank you Mr. Chairman, I would like to move for approval of the project that's submitted We have a motion and a second any further discussion Or from on the phones Hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye opposed Guys aren't quick enough That was two eyes from the phone. I take it Great. Thank you Thank you and uh Did we do opposed? Sorry i'm thrown off anyone opposed it was unanimous eyes. So it is approved Thank you very much. Thank you We'll see you guys later Thanks guys Steve can you give us an update on anticipation for the april 13th meeting and whether under the new state Guidelines if we are non-essential therefore should not be meeting I'm not sure at this point in time what the decision is going to be As soon as I find out I'll let everyone know in advance. So everyone has a feeling I think there could be some things that were possibly going to be submitted You know, so if we are regularly going to meet I would say the answer is yes But as I find out in the next couple of days, I'll let you guys know Great and just feedback from the board in terms of willingness to meet In the current situations given what the city is doing today to try to to limit exposure keep the group to under 10 in this this space Are people still comfortable either calling in or being here in person? Seeing nodding heads for the most part So if the the mayor and the the governor don't shut us down Uh, then it sounds like this is still an option from our end Great. Thank you Any other comments or business? If not, I would entertain a motion to adjourn I'm not sure if you're still speaking so I apologize for some interrupting, but yeah from this end And I know it's a technology issue that we'll have to work out if we do the conference call again Hopefully we'll find a way that We'll be a little more conducive for the folks on our end because Pam and I would Definitely agree. It's just hard to hear The speakers and I think once we're in a room where everyone is maybe dialing into the same line and on a phone It might be easier, but today is very difficult Thanks for that feedback And I'm being told that uh, they will be trying to take care of that Thank you guys for calling in So motion to adjourn We have a motion I hear a second Second all in favor. Hi. All right. We are adjourned. Thanks everyone. Hopefully see you on the 13th So These Thanks, Bob. Stay well I mean you you just bought rewind bar in order to put up a huge area and we're spending all that money And then just across the road in the end I just think it's weird


ThinkTek Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. Aloha and talk. Welcome to Talk Story with John Wahey. Again, we have a great show for you. I think you'll find this interesting. One of the hot topics of this season is whether or not the state of Hawaii ought to have a constitutional convention. The last time we had one was in 1978. And since then, whenever the question was on the ballot, it would be rejected. So here we are in 2018 with another opportunity to decide whether or not we want a constitutional convention. So to help me with this issue, we have our special guest today, Chad Blair, who is the editor of the Politics and Opinion of the Civil Beat. That's right. Thank you, Governor. Which, by the way, is probably the leading political media. I don't know what you call it, peace. Thank you. In the state of Hawaii. You know, certainly politics and opinion take up a lot of our online pages. It's a nonprofit. Anybody can go on there. They don't have to pay to read our content. I find that really nice. Yeah, so do I. And it's founded by Pierre Omidyar, the publisher of eBay, who lives here with his wife and children. See, that's really interesting. Someday we ought to have a conversation with somebody about all the people who find Hawaii a great place to live without any publicity, without anything. They just come in and sort of live here and walk among us. Definitely. We cover other things. We cover the legislature, the city council, office of Hawaiian affairs, education, the environment, police accountability. But particularly during election season, we really ramp up. And that is our entire focus. So now that the primary is over, we're looking ahead to the general election. And one of the issues that I just mentioned will be the constitutional convention. Now, why I find a civil beat unique on this subject is that most of the informed, I guess, what would you call it, opinion makers in the state of Hawaii has sort of stayed a little back from answering that question.  It will be and decided that as far as you're concerned, editorially, you are spousing that we have a constitutional convention. We are. And it's for a couple of reasons. One reason is that we've actually pulled it. We have surveyed voters and back in December, two thirds of the people that we spoke to, registered voters in the state of Hawaii who plan to vote, said they'd like to have a concon. The same thing in May. The numbers went down a little bit, but still pretty healthy majority. So that's one reason. Another reason is a number of people that are sit on our Ed board are from the mainland or have worked on the mainland in states like California and Oregon and Washington state, fairly progressive states, fairly advanced liberally, if you will, politically. And there was a sense of frustration watching our own legislature not move on some issues that we thought they should move on. Fantastic. And I'll give you an example. A medical marijuana, should it be a rather recreational marijuana? We already have medical marijuana, but it took us forever to get up those dispensary sets. Yeah, you would think with many people would consider a young legislator. That would have been kind of a no brainer. Probably even from your time, there was probably a recreational or decriminalization bill, but it never gets heard or if it does, it goes nowhere. So that's one thing we thought, well, if the legislature is not going to deal with this, why not have a concon consider that? Now, some may say that's not a serious an issue. Another issue is maybe we ought to have referendum initiative and recall. Okay, back in 1978, that came up, right? Those were the, well, there were the main issues in terms of public involvement. And you the pro con. Right. And it was, I think, one, a form of, I was a member of their convention. And one form of it that almost passed, lost by, I think it was a tie. Wow. It was an absolute, it was a tie. An actual vote. It didn't even go to the voters and it didn't make it out of the delegates. Never made it out of the convention. It was the kind of a cutting issue between the two factions, really. Although that's not a good way to do it. But so okay. Well, here's our thought. That issue has also come up at the legislature, nearly ever session. It never gets heard, initiative, referendum and recall. You think to California is probably being the most prominent state. Of course, that's where Greg Davis was recalled and Arnold Schwarzenegger got in for that special session. But there's also a referendum. There is initiative. And so you'll see a ballot process in California, which all sorts of questions go be for the voters. Well, you know one of the things about the California Constitution, it's about that thick. I mean, this is a little exaggeration, but as a result of initiative referendum. But our feeling is, if the legislature, who are the appointed delegates, the elected delegates, the people that represent us throughout the state of Hawaii, if they're not going to move on legislation that we think is important, why don't we have a con con, vote for delegates to go in and do that as well? I can't help but recalling when you tell me this, John Kennedy's book. So I forgot what it was, but it was profiles encourage profiles encourage where it was the legislative duty sometimes to disagree with the with the populace. How does that fit in? I understand that. And having said this, here's another issue that we have seen go before the legislature seems to be every session or every other session, medical aid and dying. Well, lo and behold, the legislature actually passed that this past session. That was a kind of a, you know, that was a little bit of progressive. No question. In fact, I even wrote a column for civil beat giving credit to the leadership of the House and Senate, the chambers as a whole for voting finally to put that into law. Now it's going to be the law. It is the law. I think it goes into effect in 2019. But that took forever. There's been some other progressive things that came out of this past session. But generally, even though Hawaii is a blue state, often our legislature has been fairly conservative at least in recent decades. You know, it's, it's a really interesting observation. And in fact, I think, I think you wrote an article about that. Quite possibly. You know, and which I found very, very popular, provoking actually. So I mean, look back to the 1970s. You had the prepaid health care act. Well, we, we pride ourselves in the Democrats used to pride themselves, especially the 70s and 80s of being the first in the nation equal rights amendment, even though we don't have it at the federal level, abortion rights for women. I don't know if that was before Roe v. Wade, but it was. So that's really, in so many ways, Hawaii was fairly progressive, certainly in its environmental laws. A lot of that came out of the labor laws. Absolutely. All of that. And then all of a sudden it seemed like the more democratic we became, the more conservative we became. It is. And so we feel that, look, what happened to that? What happened to that idealism? What happened to wrestling with these issues, even though they are challenging, even though they may turn off some voters and people fear that they may not be reelected? We feel that that is what a democracy is all about. And maybe it's no coincidence that our voter turnout is as low as it is. One argument maybe for Con Con is the fact that the other alternative process for amending the Constitution is to actually have the legislature propose an amendment. Right. And we actually do have a constitutional way of... It is. And there is a ballot measure and a constitutional amendment question on the ballot in November leveling a surcharge of oil and extra tax on investment properties, properties that cost more than a million dollars. And that would go to schools. And this was the initiative of the State Teachers Association. You know, another reason why we're going out on front on the Con Con, because we started this before the primary happened is, frankly, there aren't a lot of races that are going to be very competitive in the fall. And the Con Con question and the constitutional amendment question on taxes for schools, a few OHA races, a few other races here and there. Might be the only interesting... Pretty much. As you well know, by and large, the primaries are big races. Well, I found it very interesting that when the legislature, that most of the cutback amendments to our state constitution, in other words, the more conservative amendments, like the marriage, there was an amendment actually that made it possible for the legislature to define what constitute marriage before they eventually went out and passed... And the irony that our court, our High Supreme Court was the first in the nation back in 1993. Right. We said, look, unless you can find a reason...  They were denied the right. By the way, I appointed that justice just so that... Levinson. Steve Levinson, I believe, was the author of that. And unless the legislature could come up with a compelling reason, in other words, to pass, to amend the constitution, to give them the right to limit marriage between one man and one woman, then you could not deny marriage to gay couples. I find it interesting that that seems to exist, that the cutbacks, that the conservative amendments... But it took forever.  And finally, give Neal Abakrami some credit, he ordered the legislature into session, 2013, and lo and behold, after hours of agonizing testimony, they did enact a same-sex marriage. Well, same thing with medical marijuana. That's exact. But why did it take so long? Again, why was it ahead of the curve? Well, I think that's an argument for a constitutional convention. The idea that it seems that the people, when they get together, have a more progressive vision... That is our argument. ...of the future than the establishment, or the legislative establishment. And I think there's some data, actually, to support that point of view. So in that sense, you might be on the right side of history, but what I don't... What I find less compelling is the issues themselves that seem to be coming up. They're all old stuff. Now, maybe that's not bad, but 40 years we've been debating initiative and referendum, and it never passes. Not even in the prior conventions. But is there anything new? Is there anything out there that is so compelling that we ought to have... Because the legal women voters, I believe that's their argument against the constitutional convention. There is a concern, and this is an answer to your second question, is that maybe it could get... unintended consequences could come from a con con. Because we were talking about California earlier, and all the ballot questions they have, the proposals that go before voters, it could backfire. I mean, remember back in 1978 was the proposition where they cut back on the taxes, they've had troubles funding the schools, they've gone back and forth, and it could be a step forward and a step backward, and that's the concern that can happen here. I know collective bargaining rights, which came from the 1968 con con. I'm sure the public sector unions will be very concerned that a con con this time around might touch that very important part of our law. You know, it's interesting though, but again, whenever we bring up, whenever we make these arguments, there are really two sides to it. I mean, the idea of having a citizen's convention is attractive in itself. I mean, democracy is messy.   You promised we weren't going to go down that route. No, I'm not going to go down that way. What new could come out of this convention? I think one possibility that we've discussed, and we've actually editorialized on, why is the legislature exempt from the state's sunshine law that doesn't apply to other agencies of government? And that's something that the legislature itself passed that law. In other words, they themselves are keeping the public in the dark on many of the things that they are allowed to do behind closed doors. That's something that a con con could come together and say, no, the sunshine law should apply to the state legislature. Or the opposite. Oh, and the opposite in this sense, that it applies, it doesn't apply to the legislature, but it applies to every other deliberative body, city constitution. We would argue that you ought to have that cover the legislature. Right. And so, you know, it seems to me like there's a kind of a hypocrisy. That's the way we feel. Here's another one, term limits. Now, while I personally don't support term limits, I believe that that's the voter's job. If they want someone out, they should vote them out. But we do have term limits for all the county mayors, the county prosecutors, the county council. The governors? The governors, the lieutenant governor. In fact, it was the 78 con con that had the term limits for governor and LG. Well, what if lawmakers were suddenly faced, and I mean specifically the state house and senate, if they were faced with term limits, might that change the way they do their jobs? If they do that, oh, I'm not going to get into the verb. Will it make it better or will it make it worse? We would argue that maybe it would make it better because you would not get in there and be ensconced, be so influenced by all those campaign donations that are coming from special interests, that maybe you would actually go in and say, look, I've got eight years. You know, actually, actually, I think that if you really research the issue, one of the reasons why some of those things don't pass in Hawaii, who has been the California example, where they do have term limits, for example, and it actually seems to work the other way where people start looking for a job immediately, very quickly after they get elected and they end up becoming much more susceptible to special interests. These are the kinds of arguments. What I find it was always attracted me about having a constitutional convention is the ability to argue and to, and if we like what we now have, the ability to re-justify it. You know, I think the process may be even more important than the individual issue. Well, one of the things about a process, and of course, I was just in high school at the time, but the new leadership that came out of the 788 Con Con, it's not only yourself, but a Carol Fukunaga, Jim Sean, Alessi Hara, a number of people, oh, Walter Riddie, people that would become leaders or anti-Frenchy De Soto, who would later chair OHA, right? And you had a sort of a breeding ground for new fresh leadership coming in with some idealism, and we think that could be, when you talk about argument, what a wonderful opportunity to get them all in the same room and have them talking about ideas to change this government. Or to justify it. Or to justify it. We're going to come right back, folks, for more on whether or not we should have a constitutional convention. And if we have time, slip a few other issues in, since we have been able to grab the political editor of the Civil Bee. So we'll be right back. And welcome back to Talk Story with John Wahee and our special guest, the editor of Politics and Public Opinion at Civil Bee, Chad Blair. And by the way, folks, call on in if you want to. In fact, we would encourage you to. The number is<PHONE_NUMBER>. And I would tell you how to tweet, but that's something that's beyond.  It's all right. Yeah, the process of the conca. You know, I just find that has always been compelling to me because there is a way for direct citizen participation. But maybe you should let the folks at home know how a amendment actually passes. This is not something that where people get together, they raise their hand and it's done. No, we should explain, first of all, that most people probably living in Hawaii today might not have been eligible voters back in 1978, right? 1978, 1978, right. No matter what comes out of the concon, every single amendment has to go before the voters. In the case of 78, every single one of them was improved, including the establishment of the office of non-affairs. It was approved by the voters. There were, I think, a number, over a hundred. In fact, we were such an activist constitutional convention that one of the arguments against ever having one again, you know, it's really funny for me. Two activists? Yeah. The first two, well, the first thing that happened right after we made the amendments, we took it to the voters, they approved it, was the legislature passed the constitutional amendment, changing the ratification process, upping the number of votes that you would need in order to pass the constitutional convention. And to us, this is perplexing. And what this means to voters that are going to be looking on November 6th on the concon question is, if you leave that question blank, if you don't put in your X or your check mark, it's a no. It's a no vote, which is just silly to us, but it's because the legislature made it. I think the rule said, basically, that you need to have one more than 50%. 50 plus one, yeah. In terms of the actual vote, but that total vote for a positive vote has to be more than 50%. So that's why an education campaign really needs to be stressed for the concon in particular. Common cause Hawaii, which is not taking a position per se and whether to have a concon has said this is their biggest concern, or at least one of them, that people understand not only what that vote might mean, but how a concon would work. Because it actually would amount to three elections. You would have to have, well, certainly you'd have to have the first vote to pass, to agree to have a concon.  And then you'd have to have a third vote in order to ratify or to vote against anything that came out of that concon. That's a lot of votes. And it's quite a standard. It's almost, it's very difficult. It's a high bar. I tell my friends that for those of you that don't like a concon, don't, you know, unhappy with it, I don't know whether anybody could actually meet that standard. You know, in a major way, anyway. Every election we have constitutional amendments on the ballot, it seems like, and very few of them pass right now. And those that pass tend to be emotional at the moment. You know, like the anti-gay marriage amendment that passed. Back in 1998, exactly. So that's one of our concerns. I think another concern is we didn't have super PACs back in 1978. We didn't have Citizens United approved by the U.S. Supreme Court a couple years ago. We didn't have the ability to use dark money coming from sometimes who knows where to influence decisions like we did back then. And we're very concerned that that could really, I mean, can you imagine all the television commercials, all the mailers at the mailbox, all the use of social media to get out the word. And that is a concern, particularly on certain interests that don't want certain constitutional amendments enacted. You know, it's sort of interesting, but the opposition, one of the major groups opposed to Initiative Referendum was the, I guess you would call them the welfare groups, the poor, the social... Social justice groups. Social justice groups and the rest. And the reason was that, that they were afraid that poor people wouldn't have the resources to pass amendments or law, actually, in the case of Referendum and Initiative, wouldn't have the ability to take advantage of that, but people with money would. And the particular issues had to do with zoning. Where, and I think history shows that initially, like Queens Beach, where, for example, on this island, initially people get together, they downzone the place, and all of a sudden the landowners get together and it's up zoned. And that happened on Kauai as well. But the fear of, I think, of outside money is really real. Another thing that would be of concern, and you have all people know this, you have said as much at a forum regarding a possible concon this year, what might happen to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs? Is it possible that that might be impacted in a negative way? That would actually hurt the way OHA operates and the way it serves its beneficiaries? On the other side, some might say that you could use it to maybe secure that those seated land revenues where they did stay at the amount that a judge recently said they should be at. Well, there are things that we could change about the Constitution, no doubt. So, there is a fear of tinkering here and there that might go overboard, but if the legislature isn't going to do it, then this is the forum where it can happen. It's the only forum. Is the legislature even capable of handling those types of issues? I don't think so when the judge said that it looks like OHA should get, or the Department of Hawaiian Homeland is another example. $28 million dollars. Right. I mean the courts have their jurisdiction, the legislature has its jurisdiction, and I'm not going to wade into that, but if there's a dispute on who controls things and you disagree with whatever comes out, a con con might be the area. Yeah, because otherwise what you would have is two institutions really just playing this off against themselves. Right. A GHHL has its own challenges because it goes back to the 1920s and the U.S. Congress being involved and then statehood. But OHA, of course, was created in 1978. What I find interesting about all of this is that is the way public opinion has drifted over the issue of con con, actually in my case for the past 40 years, and right after the Constitutional Convention of 1978, as I said, the legislature changed the standard saying we're never going to have another runaway convention. And we haven't. And we haven't. What's interesting about that, though, is that for the first 20 years or so, people like myself are saying we should have one. We should have one. This document was never meant to be perfect. And for the most part, the general public voting it down, voting it down. And yet in this day and age, it seems like the public seems pretty much after 40 years, maybe it's worth a try. Maybe, as you say, a lot of people weren't even around. Right. And it is so interesting to see the establishment that, in a sense, sort of made sure that there was no other con con ever, but took a position that there shouldn't be. Now are saying we need to protect this Constitution. Right. We need to protect it. We need to do everything for it. But as you know, a Constitution, at least this is my argument. I'm not a strict interpreter of the Constitution. I see it as a living document. I know that's different when Antoinette Scalia believes in some of the more conservative justices. But I believe it is an amendable document. The Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, was something that came later. It's the First Amendment of the Constitution. And we have amended what, up to 27, I forget what the figure is, 26, 27 times at the federal level. It was a mistake now and then. Prohibition, for example, was the wrong way to vote. But the women's right to vote, giving people 18 years of age. Well, 14, 15, 16 amendments. The most important amendments. The 13th coming out of the Civil War, exactly. So that just shows you an example at the federal level. Here at the state level, I think that shows you the possibility of what can be done. The danger, if you have a prohibition, but the opportunity to make it a more just and equitable society. I think, and I have to confess, my own personal bias on all of this is I don't know what we should do. And which is unusual for me, because I've been an advocate of having one. And people are trying to get you, actually, to get off the fence. Yeah, they are, they are. But it is a wonderful opportunity for the citizens to appreciate their own government. I don't know if I would have had any hesitation at all. Were it not for the fact that, you know, I see what's happening on the national level and I tell myself, maybe this is not a good time. In other words, that people seem to be not afraid to be almost un-American in their biases and espousing it in one hand. And on the other hand, everybody's apathetic and nobody shows up to vote. Yeah, particularly in this state. Right. Well, across the country, actually, except that one good thing about your favorite, your favorite person who we will not talk about is Donald Trump, is that he seems to be getting people involved, at least some types of people. We'll see. I think the midterms will almost certainly be its own referendum on the Trump administration's first two years in office. We'll see if the House stays in control by the Republicans. It looks like the Democrats might take it back. And the Senate, it's a closer battle. But I think that is the big concern. The thing about the Trump administration, the person, the big elephant in the room that I don't want to talk about, but will anyway, is it is remarkable how the dynamic changes sometimes literally by the hour or by the second, by the tweet, if you will. Well, by the flag. You could be talking about something in the morning and by noon, it's something else. And then by six o'clock, it's something else. And today alone, on the day that we are here, the flag goes down for John McCain. The flag goes back up and then the flag goes back down. And it's the speed of which these things are happening are astounding.  Slow them down. Slow them down. But, you know, okay, here's the last thing. Consideration for people regarding the constitutional convention. Folks, if there was no convention in 1978, there would have been no Governor Wahey. So, you know, take that for what it's worth. And thank you for joining us. I hope that all of you take very seriously the issue of whether or not Hawaii needs to have another constitutional convention.


so what is your name and how old are you okay um so what's your relationship to the kairos to kairos it helps what do you know about it helps indigenous people and like a blanket thingy they have a thing called a blanket exercise and it so people bring a bunch of blankets and they have cards and then a person says if you have a blue car you go in that blanket it represents you know okay yeah yeah so that's your relationship the blanket exercise right okay can you tell me a little bit about who you are and introduce yourself a little bit like I am Lennox Cody I'm living Canada Ottawa planet Earth universe Milky Way and so and like where do you go to school what do you'd like to do come closer my favorite hobby is playing soccer and sports okay and I go to school already my kind of school it's a great school you should go there when you grow up if you're a kid okay okay and um what does peace mean to you so peace what do you think of when you think of that word two people that body chopper no no come closer okay just peace peace is when two nations or people or countries like are nice to each other okay also I have another question what does freedom mean to you freedom means when you're free like free of something like free of school free of war free of something and that's it like away from something like okay what does it mean to be safe what does it mean when you feel safe like when you're in a safe position there's many ways to say safe I know say like if you're safe if you're like hiding or safe like if you're safe because your people are guarding you're helping you yeah so like you're not in danger yeah so what how do you explain that safe how does it feel to you it feels great and what it what makes you feel like you're safe okay but in terms of like what you said earlier that they meant war to you our peace between nations okay so you living in Canada or in this country going to Mount Carmel how does that make you feel safe this country doesn't make me feel safe it doesn't why because there's a bunch of bunch of stuff going on of North America and Donald Trump's in North America so okay what do you as a child need for you for the above to be happen so for you to feel peace for you to feel freedom and for you to feel safe what do you need you know once I watch this video before Orion quiet you know I watched this video before in school and it was able to make a difference you know how you used to make a difference about one thing and then it goes on to another person and another person and it keeps going man that's like how you feel safe because you just do one thing and then it keeps going and going you know what I mean that's what you think needs to be done for you to feel safe for people to do something and then somebody else do something so like pass it forward so everybody has a piece yeah that's really good that's good okay you know what kind of work we at Kairos do okay so what do you think Kairos does I told you it at some it helps people it helps mostly indigenous people and cuz like a million years ago there was a war against the indigenous and the Europeans they all fought and I don't have no idea who won and then they are a lot of indigenous people died and then the Kairos community helped bring them back up and like rise rise well that they didn't but that's what they try to do I think so if they were successful then there wouldn't be any issues today right but we have to try right exactly yeah you're right they don't give up okay hold on okay why is this work important for people to try to help people or like teaching people right okay so to keep our rights basically okay children are supposed to have the freedom to play and to choose their own friends and to express themselves does that always happen no why because there's still a bit like what's going on so my people also matter same of same the same okay so come closer say that again okay so trying to express himself this is always happened so why doesn't always happen where you can't express yourself Orion just wait you know my sister never talk to me she doesn't like socializing I'm good with socializing so that's why I thought it's easy to express myself so when you can socialize that's when it's easier okay what native people and the Europeans have to be rupious rupious what is roof what does that mean it means when someone treats you like um they have to like be nice to each other and treat them if someone and they'd be nice to each other because I have to be nice back and then you know no more fighting that's what kind of rupious means okay you just learned me something here my boy okay so what's your message for if you could say something to all the children in Canada about the stuff we just talked about about feeling safe and freedom and peace and expressing yourself if you had a message to say to all the children in Canada what would you say but like in terms of like war and stuff and Donald Trump and how he makes you feel so don't go with bad people so you go with good people okay so what if you if you could tell everybody in the world on all the growing up something you want to tell them something about how to have peace and how to make everybody feel safe what do you think is the answer you know maybe you should listen to kids more because growing up they created more fighting and kids what did they do I can name all these good kids they'll help the world they helped it and what maybe one thing I can't help the world they make kids okay okay I think that's the last question thank you Lennox but not okay true that's so true okay thank you are you gonna say bye peace out okay