Income tax 2022-2023. Capital gain or loss. Let's do some wealth preservation with some tax preparation. Support Accounting Instruction by clicking the link below, giving you a free month membership to all of the content on our website, broken out by category, further broken out by course. Each course then organized in a logical, reasonable fashion, making it much more easy to find what you need than can be done on a YouTube page. We also include added resources such as Excel practice problems, PDF files, and more like QuickBooks backup files when applicable. So once again, click the link below for a free month membership to our website and all the content on it. Most of this information comes from the Form 1040 Instructions Tax Year 2022. You can find it at the IRS website, irs.gov, irs.gov. When looking at the income tax formula, we're focused once again online, one that being income, remembering that the first half of the income tax formula is in essence an income statement, although a strange one, income up top, the equivalent of expenses being the deductions to get down to the equivalent of net income, that being taxable income. Our objective flipped on its head where we want the taxable income as low as possible as opposed to normally when we want the net income as high as possible, which means when talking about the income line up top, the question is, is this something that is income? If it is income, do I have to include it or is there some kind of exemption for it? So this time we're going to be talking about capital gains and capital gains get a little bit tricky as well because we have the calculation of the income up top and then we also might have this concept of having different tax rates related to those capital gains which will be applied down here when we do the tax calculation after arriving at the taxable income. Remember that actually calculating the tax is quite complex because we have a progressive tax system already, which means that the one taxable income number might be calculated using multiple different rates and now we're going to add a level of complexity possibly and that we could have different tax rates for capital gains and we may have different tax rates as we saw before for dividends, for example. So quick justification in terms of why that might be, why might we have different tax rate for capital gains? Note what capital gains are. These are typically gains for most people we're thinking about gains from the stock trades for example. We're holding onto investments, stocks and bonds and then hopefully those stocks and bonds will accumulate upward in value over time if we want to realize and spend the money with regards to those stocks and bonds we sell the stocks and bonds and at that point in time that's when we quote realize and quote the gains. Suddenly I have an opinion about the capital gains tax. So the gains can accumulate upwards in other words the value of the stocks can go up in value but we don't generally have a taxable event related to those investments other than possibly with regards to dividends and interest but not with the increase in the value, the capital value of the investment until the point in time we sell it and the justification for that is that the stock market will fluctuate up and down so it would be kind of a chaotic situation for us to try to realize gains and losses without having actually sold the stock. So then when we actually sell the investment we're going to take the sales price minus the cost account for any kind of cost of the trades that took place as well to get to the gain. Now the issue with the gains that we have then is why wouldn't the gains just be in ordinary income? Couple justifications for that one would be that these gains actually accumulated over a long period of time possibly because if they're long term gains they're going to happen over at least a year longer than that often times people are holding onto the stocks for a long time if you're a long term investor and therefore you might have this situation where you sold something accumulated revenue over 10 years and you're accounting for it in one year you have the similar situation with our progressive tax system as though that situation where you have the lottery choice should I take the lottery money today or should I take it over installments over so many years into the future the tax consequence of taking it today would mean that that lump sum will increase your taxable income to the point where the progressive tax tables for ordinary income would be much higher and so that can kind of distort things same kind of thing happens here if I take 10 years worth of gains and realize them at one time you might argue that you have an unreasonably high tax rate that might be applied because you didn't really get all that money now you invested to get the money that's one argument another argument is just simply that you want to incentivize investments in the stock market stock market guy and to do that that incentivizes people to save which is usually good it's good to save for retirement and we want to of course stimulate the economy and whatnot and therefore that's another argument to try to lower the costs of investing our money in stocks and bonds some people are skeptical of that argument thinking that's what the stock traders obviously might like that type of argument but those are the arguments from a tax perspective that result in us having this more complex situation of having to realize the gain and also deal with the tax consequences now also just realize that you could have losses so it gets actually quite complex if you have gains and losses short term gains and long term gains we might dive into that topic a little bit more in and of itself later but for right now we just want to think about the idea if it's going to pull into the first page of the form 1040 if we have these capital gains also realize if you sell other things like property and whatnot you might end up with a similar situation of a capital gain that will be reported on a schedule D it's just that the most common thing that people think of with a schedule D capital gains are investments in stocks and bonds also just realize that most people have their investments in stocks and bonds under the umbrella of a retirement account like a 401k plan or an IRA situation where they might be earning their increase in the value of the stocks and bonds just like if it was outside of an IRA or 401k and they might be earning dividends and income but those are going to usually be going back into the account and they're not actually pulling money out of that account until the point in time that they retire because that's the point of putting them into the 401k plan if you pull the money out before that point then you could get hit with the penalties and interest so that means when you pull the money out then it's usually going to be included as a distribution at retirement age and that usually is included as kind of like income but if you're putting money into the stock market outside of a retirement plan which is often good if you have the money to do that over and above what you're putting into the retirement plan because then you have kind of a nest egg or something that you can dip into at least in the medium term it's not the emergency money but it's money that you can access fairly quickly by selling stocks and bonds that isn't under the umbrella of an IRA or 401k plan and when you sell that stuff that's when you would have a capital gain situation obviously if you do taxes you will also run into some people that just like day trading they're going to try to get value from a short-term investments in which case the Schedule D can be quite extensive and problematic for most people they don't do the day trading they're long-term investors and they work somewhere else and therefore the Schedule D is usually not that burdensome and most of their investments like I say are under the umbrella of a 401k or an IRA which means it's going to be accounted for a little bit differently in terms of the distributions at retirement okay so it's going to be here on line 7 there's the capital gain attached Schedule D here's a quick look at the Schedule D the general ideas that we've got the proceeds the cost and then adjustments and then the gains and losses note that the short-term gains and those long-term gains I'm not going to dive into that in too much detail here we might go into it in more detail later I just want to touch on it as something included in income, another type of income now normally you will get a Schedule A form 1099B from your financial institution your bank or your E-Trade or your Vanguard whoever you are investing with that also might give you a 1099B for interest and dividends and so on so it might not look exactly like this but it will say 1099B on it somewhere and it'll have the related boxes that are going to be necessary in order to do the calculation so note that what you need to calculate is you need the date acquired because you got to see if it's short-term or long-term and the date sold oftentimes these two things are summarized on the 1099 and then there's more detail in the full 1099 report because you might have bought and sold multiple stocks and bonds for example and the main thing that has a consequence on your taxes is short-term versus long-term so for example if you sold like 100 if you sold one stock then it's pretty straightforward on the short-term and long-term at one time not a problem but if you're dealing with a day trader that sold like hundreds of shares then the major thing that you need to be grouping together is the fact that these group of shares were sold under a year and these groups of shares were sold over a year which you might summarize in your data input in the tax software and possibly then use the schedule provided to you by the financial institution as backup and attach that to your tax return instead of entering every single trade that happened so there might be some shortcuts in the data input for that kind of tedious process when you have a whole bunch of trades so just to kind of keep that in mind also just note that it used to be that the date acquired and the cost are usually the most problematic things to come by from the investments and it used to be that the financial institutions remember they're just kind of facilitating your trades so they used to be that you're the one that's ultimately responsible for that information and it used to be the financial institutions finest financial institution this side of Missouri weren't held as closely responsible for that stuff but more and more they've been trying to pressure the financial institutions like with every kind of area which does make it easier on a tax preparer like me to get them to give you the date acquired as well as the cost now the cost gets quite complex because you might have a stock that was for example inherited to you or the stock might have had stock splits from multiple different companies or the stock has changed so the cost can actually get quite cumbersome quite complicated and sometimes the financial institution may not give it to you or they might say this is like what we guessed the cost is or something and you might have to go through some kind of estimate to kind of figure what the cost is so that gets a little bit messy but those are the main three boxes that we need and we might enter them like I say one by one transaction into the system or try to summarize the short term and long term transactions and then provide the detail to the IRS and then you got a crude market discount wash sale short term gain or loss long term gain or loss and so short term and long term will have differences in taxes in terms of generally whether it's going to be subject to ordinary income which is not tax rates that is or is it going to be subject to capital gains rates typically favorable rates so check collectibles if they're collectibles or not now you could have withholdings from your stock sales most of the time most people don't because they're withholding through their W-2s or their distributions if they're in retirement from their pension plans so you don't see that all the time but it's possible because you do have a gain situation possibly that someone withholds the tax and if you sell a whole bunch of stocks then quite likely you might want to withhold if you can at that point there or make an estimated payment when you pull the money out a lot of times people pull money out and they don't really take into consideration the tax consequences in part because they've been taken out of the system of actually thinking about taxes because the IRS has forced the employer to take that role that means that we really get paid sometimes whatever we get paid after taxes and we just think whatever and then when we do something that has a tax trigger and event we don't even think about taxes because we feel like didn't the employer take care of that well no it's your financial institution the employer is not involved but in any case reports to the IRS gross proceeds versus net proceeds check if loss is not allowed profit or loss realized unrealized profit and so on so those are the main boxes line 7 capital gain or loss if you sold a capital asset such as a stock or bonds you must complete and attach form 8, 9, 4, 9 and schedule D so these are going to be the tax rates remember that we have a progressive tax system and we have normal or ordinary tax rates and for the reasons discussed before the capital rates might have a beneficiary rate if you qualify for them by having like the long term capital gains as opposed to the short term capital gains now how are they going to then dish out or serve up those more beneficial rates when we have a progressive tax system and everybody is not already taxed at one rate because it will mean that higher income individuals will have a more favorable rate which will still be like 20% whereas lower income individuals the more favorable rate may bring the capital gains rate down to 0 therefore we have a structure where we're going to be applying the progressive tax tables to ordinary income separating the capital gains to the capital gains subject to a favorable rate and then determining which of these favorable rates would apply based on their income level and doing that calculation noting that on the tax software you're not really going to see all that happening usually because we often rely on the software to do that calculation of the actual tax therefore we often recalculate with our tax worksheet for example the taxable income rely on the worksheet on the software often times to apply the complicated table structure of the progressive tax system and break out these separate taxes favorable taxes for capital gains and possibly qualify dividends for example so if single an income 0 to 41 675 0% up to 15% if it's 41 676 2 459 750 and up to 20% if it's 459 751 so the general concept you would be explaining to someone then if they were asking about the capital gains is that if you have the long term capital gains you might have a favorable taxable gain rate no matter what your income is for incomes that are lower income levels then the favorable rate would be 0 if you're at a mid or moderate range would be 15% for many people probably most people and then if it's a high income level then the favorable rate would be at 20% because the marginal rate of those individuals would be higher than that due to their progressive tax system and the income level they are at exception one you don't have to file form 8949 or schedule D if you aren't deferring any capital gain by investing in a qualified opportunity fund and both of the following apply one you have no capital losses and your only capital gains are capital gain distributions from forms 1099 div box 2a or substitute statements and two none of the form 1099 div or substitute statements have an amount in box 2b unrecaptured section 1250 gain box 2c section 1202 gain or box 2d collectibles 28% gain so the general concept here when you're doing your data input would be if you have the 1099b that reports the sale of stock and that usually is reflecting someone actually the taxpayer actually selling the stock then that will be provided and you're going to have to look up the sales price and then subtract out the cost to figure the gain say a schedule D however as we saw when we looked at the interest and dividends the 1099 div in particular when you have distributions from the corporation those are going to be a different kind of income so if you're investing in stocks for example or bonds if you're investing in stocks and bonds you might have income related to interest which would be bonds typically paying out interest for example or you might have dividends which would be the company distributing out the retained earnings of the company in the form of dividends to the owner of the company that being the shareholders or you could have capital gains which is our focus here which typically is triggered only when the actual stocks are sold the gains then being realized at that point in time now sometimes when you have a distribution from the company so the board of directors or whatever decides to give out money to the shareholders it might dip into not just the retained earnings but also into maybe like the original investment from the distribution of the of the original stocks and in that case they might have to classify it not as a dividend but rather as a capital gain and instead of giving a 1099 B for that transaction because you didn't facilitate the transaction you didn't decide to sell the stock they decided to give a distribution and so it was an involuntary kind of transaction on your end you own the stock you vote for the board of directors but they then decide what the dividend distributions will be and so on then it's going to be reported on the schedule 1099 DIV generally so then you would just record it from the data input standpoint as capital gains with a 1099 DIV and you may not need to generate then a schedule D the software doing that the software might not populate a schedule D unless you have these other boxes 1250 gain and so on so the thing you need to know logistically is if you get a 1099 DIV and you have something in the box for capital gains then you're just going to plug that into the box in your tax software and it will typically then calculate it as as capital gains and may or may not generate a schedule D depending on the needs and then you can basically want to deconstruct that say well why does that make sense and when you talk to someone like a client be able to explain the difference between a dividend which has ordinary versus qualified dividends the qualified dividends might have favorable tax treatment and the distributions of a capital gain which might mean that they distributed something over and above the retained earnings therefore classified it as capital gains instead of normal distributions and you might have capital gains rules which once again you could have favorable tax treatment on on those distributions and then when you sell stock that's when you're going to have the 1099 B which will give you the the sale price of the stock when the person actually physically sold the stock okay exception two so you must file schedule D generally don't have to file form 8 9 4 9 if exception 1 doesn't apply you aren't deferring any capital gain by investing in a qualified opportunity fund or terminating deferral from an investment in a qualified opportunity fund or your only capital gains and losses are capital gain distributions a capital loss carryover from 2021 a gain from form 2439 or 6252 or part 2 of form 4797 a gain or loss from form 4684 6781 or 8 824 a gain or loss from a partnership S corporation a state or trust or gains or losses from transactions for which you received a form 1099 B or substitute statement that shows basis was reported to the IRS the QOF box 3 isn't checked and you don't need to make any distributions in column G of form 8 9 4 9 or enter any codes in column F of form 8 9 4 9 okay so again we got a couple different kind of exceptions here and you've got some similar rules with some of these other forms so for example a gain or loss from a partnership S corporation a state or trust then that might flow through for example with a K1 form these are pass through type of entities so it'll be kind of similar situation to the 1099 D situation where the K1 might indicate that there was a sale of stocks or bonds or whatever made by the partnership or S corporation or a state or trust and then again you're going to populate that into the schedule K area which which hopefully will help to calculate whether or not it's capital gains or ordinary income due to the information on the schedule K and then the salt will help you to determine if you need to populate a schedule D or not with that but you need similar kind of thought process and scenario so if exception 1 applies enter your total capital gain distribution from box 2a of forms 1099 D on line 7 and check the box on that line if you're received capital gain distributions as a nominee that is they were paid to you but actually belong to someone else report on line 7 only amount that belongs to you including a statement showing the full amount you received and the amount you received as a nominee so in other words the money is someone else's but you got the 1099 for whatever reason which would be kind of an unusual situation you have that similar situation we've seen in the past where you really want to kind of tell the IRS yes I'm recognizing that I got the 1099 but I'm trying to show you here in the statement that it's not really something I should be recording in income so see sub schedule B instructions for filing requirements for form 1099 div and 1060 1096 we talked about the 1099 div in a prior presentation tip if you don't have to file schedule D use the qualified dividends and capital gains tax worksheet in the line 16 instructions I think you're your tax


USS Harry S. Truman arrives at Sudabay, Greece for a scheduled port visit. NSA Sudabay maintains and operates facilities to provide base support for U.S., allied and coalition forces operating in the Mediterranean.  A lot of different, not just departments, but tenant commands here and sub-UICS that, you know, aren't technically part of the NSA Sudabay-UICS, but still all came together. To actually bring in the ship, we had to coordinate with the rest of the installation. With the Seabees, a lot of them had never seen ships before, so they, a lot of them, volunteered to come down and help out with the line handlers. Basically, we took everybody from the command to help out. The Truman Strike Group continues its mission against ISIL while demonstrating the mobility, flexibility and power-projection capability of the Navy. Harry Ause, Anna Ibaño and the other triggers, Sudabay, Greece.


hi guys thank you so much for coming back to this channel and if it's your first time consider subscribing support this channel by subscribing don't forget to click the bell icon to be the only way you'll be updated when i upload the video for the returning subscribers thank you so much you do me great i appreciate for the new subscribers please consider supporting this channel by subscribing katara to demolish the pigeon towers for renovation most of you who have visited katara you might know what i'm talking about i'm talking about the pigeon towers the most beautiful uh structures mostly photographed by most of the tourists coming to katara because of their uniqueness the house a thousand and thousand of pigeons as their homestays but remember it's it's one of the most cherished bird in katara that all over some places that you get to go they want to call pigeon towers for the housing of the pigeons so the when you look at katara itself it's one of the most visited places in katara because of our in katara because of its architecture and design the cousins and the view itself you look at the north park hills and the south park hills katara culture village you look at all the amazing things in the so they are going to demolish all the pigeon are going to demolish the pigeon towers in katara why because as per the the management uh doctor uh kala uh kaleed as light that is the managing director of katara uh culture village he actually stressed it that uh they're going to to reconstruct the pigeon towers for using what you call the new engineering technology and hope this is not going to affect the pigeons that are being staying around there if father stressed and say it however uh for the point to note for the point to note that there are three pigeon towers on the western side of katara next to the mosque in addition the in addition there are also two towers on the eastern side of next to the sea so remember something that you still need to know uh about the pigeon towers is that uh it is a very popular among visitors and one of the most photographed structures in katara uh hope that is uh for the pigeon lovers and those that have been so much interested in taking the photos is kind of um you need to be get aware of this and for people who might go back to katara to see and you don't see the pigeon towers uh these some construction or innovation for work that will be going on uh hope of trying to for those that love travel love visiting and sightseeing and try to show us something that you can really get to to have yourself by the way don't forget to subscribe to this channel don't forget to click the bell icon uh i'll always be updating you whatever is happening in the Gulf countries from jobs uh travel restrictions and old very interesting news that you need to you need to grow and we need to grow ourselves and need to grow up randa and we need to go to get more information uh thank you so much for coming back to this channel it's mixed from the uh mixed creation by the don't forget to support this channel by clicking the bell icon to be the only way and subscribing gives up the thumbs up to the video like share and you'll always be more happy to get back to you see again in the next video


Good morning, and I'd like to welcome everyone to this, the eighth meeting of the Standards Procedure and Public Appointments Committee in 2022. I would like to remind those members who are joining us virtually to place an R in the chat function of blue jeans if they would like to come in on any issues. Agender item one today is for the committee to agree to take agenda item four in private. This item is for the committee to consider some correspondence. Are members in agreement to do that? Excellent. Rydw i'r berthynas cyfnodau yn y dyfodol o'r'r cymunith, llawer o gwybod eu blaeniau a gyfnoddau cyrragedd yn y cylywyr y Prifwyr Cymru sy'n habywch, ac rydw i ni'n bwysig i fynd hyfforddiol i fawr i'r sjiganau Cymru. Paul yw y cyfnoddut y rynllun canynoddau cysylltu i fynd i gyfnoddau cylliddon i jechyd i gilydd. Rydw i'n bwysig i'w ddweud y cyfnoddau cyfnoddau ar gyfer yłem cross-party gynllun cymryd? I thank you, convener, and good morning to colleagues in committee. I'm very pleased to hear this morning and to share with you the intentions of the cross-party group on care leavers. Essentially, the establishment of this group, convener, was around a sense that there wasn't a dedicated focus for care leavers within the Parliament. We obviously have a number of cross-party groups that I think cater in terms of the children who are currently looked after and, indeed, other cross-party groups that cross-cut around social work and other issues. However, I think that there was a sense that young people who are leaving the care system and young people who have dedicated experiences of being in the care system did not have a voice within the cross-party group system. Essentially, within the summary of the papers, the purpose of the group is to inform MSPs of the many social, emotional, wellbeing and financial challenges that care leavers face via the form of the CPD, which will seek to share information and knowledge about the experiences of care leavers and those who support them. We will work in collaboration across the other cross-party groups that I have mentioned, particularly a strong relationship with the cross-party group on social work. We intend to have a wide membership that is drawn from young people with lived experience and, indeed, adults who have also went through the care system. Essentially, we will seek to express their views, opinions and ideas to both Government and Parliament and to share their vision for what Scotland can be. A core part of that is the work that we are all committed to on the promise. There is a sense that the cross-party group would want to contribute to the progress of the promise and the scrutiny of the promise and ensure that we as decision makers and wider civic society in Scotland keep the promise that we made to care experienced young people and those who live in care across Scotland. There will be a number of other related issues that we will discuss, but in summary, this is about putting on the map and ensuring that a very underrepresented group is often represented in our Parliament. Thank you, convener. Thank you, Paul. I know that one of the organisations that is signed up to the CPG is staff, and it was lovely to see them displaying in the garden lobby and meeting with MSPs to discuss that. Do any committee members have any specific questions on this matter? Were you surprised, Paul, that this was the first time that Care Levers group was being proposed? Did it come as a surprise? It did, convener. I must say that, given the remarks that I have just made about the importance to all of the promise and the degree in which the profile of people who have care experience and the care system has generally been at the forefront in the past few years, I was quite surprised, but it is definitely of its time that it will provide a strong forum for us as decision makers to continue to scrutinise that journey and support the voices of care experience on people. I would also just like to thank you, convener, for reminding colleagues that staff are in Parliament this week, and our stall continues today, and indeed we have an event this evening, so I'll just abuse my position slightly to plug that event if colleagues are around at half-five this evening. That was not in any way set up. Thank you for attending, Paul. The committee will consider whether or not to approve the application for recognition at agenda item 3, and the clerks will inform you of due course of the committee's decision. I thank you for attending today. Agenda item 3 is indeed to decide whether or not we wish to afford credit to the proposed cross-party group on care leavers. Do any committee members have any comments, questions or views on that? I'll come to Bob first, then you collect. Just a very brief comment. I nearly asked a question to Mr Cain, but I didn't think that it was required by me to put on the record that I think that this cross-party group could be of a good service to the committees of the Parliament as well, because I also sit on the Education Committee and the promise is clearly something. The Education Committee is clearly going to have a scrutiny role in relation to delivery of it. We won't always find the time to give that as much time as we'd like to, so I think that the work of the cross-party group will certainly complement the work of the main committees of the Parliament. I think that we've all got that responsibility to make sure that we deliver on the promise. In that context, I think that it's very welcome that this cross-party group is going to hopefully be established in the Parliament. I think that you're making an interesting comment, Bob, because this committee has heard on a number of different matters the challenge of hearing evidence, particularly from experienced lived witnesses, and maybe it would be an opportunity not just if this proposed CPG goes forward, but to look at some of the resources that sat in some of our CPGs when we're looking for evidence across committees. Collette, can I invite you to come in? Yeah, I just want to put on the record that I am actually a member of that CPG based on where it gets accepted. My background in the past, prior to being elected, was working for a care experience charity who had three care homes throughout Scotland. It's something that's really, really close to my heart. It's so welcoming to see this and to be able to be a voice for these young people. I've seen first-hand the challenges that they've faced. One of the things that stood out for me, and it's something that I would like to see going forward, is that within any care home setting, although the local authority is the corporate parent there, there's no potential will for any of the care staff to make sure that the young people are going to school and getting a proper education for, say, it's not incumbent on them. The other thing that stood out for me as well was the fact that they were very reluctant to register to vote, which I found quite concerning as well, because they felt that Big Brother was watching them and that the police would be on to them for various different things. So it's something that I'm really passionate about and something keen to take forward and bust any myths and association with that. I like your comment on busting any myths and the record notes your potential interest in this CPG. Are members agreed, therefore, to accord recognition to this proposed cross-party group on care leavers? We're all agreed with that, thank you. I'm now going to close the public part of this meeting and the committee will move into private.


The NFL MVP is one of the most prestigious honors that any player can earn. It symbolizes that you were the man and the best player in the entire league that year. A panel of 50 NFL riders and analysts cast their vote every year following the regular season.  I'm Hasan Khan from Time to Football and here are 10 players who should have won the NFL MVP award but didn't. 10. Drew Brees in 2009 In 2009, Peyton Manning ended up winning the MVP award. Manning had a great season but it wasn't even the best year by a quarterback that season. Drew Brees completed 70.6 percent of his passes, better than Manning's 68.8. Brees threw for 34 touchdowns as opposed to Manning's 33. Brees threw for only 11 interceptions as opposed to Manning's 16. And to top it all off, Brees had a 109.6 passer rating. Brees only ranks 10th on this list because the stats are still somewhat similar to Manning's. But if Brees had slightly better stats, why didn't Brees slightly outvote Manning for the MVP award? I mean the voting wasn't even close. Manning ended up with 25 more votes than Brees. It's one of those mysteries that we'll never know the answer to. 9. Gale Sayers in 1965 As a rookie, Sayers put up 22 combined touchdowns. Not only that, but he totaled over 2,200 all-purpose yards for the Bears. Brown's running back Jim Brown ended up winning the award. Brown had 21 touchdowns, which is less than the 22 that Sayers put up. Brown also totaled around 1,500 yards, which is still 700 yards less than Sayers. The yardage alone should have given Sayers the nod. 8. Roger Staubach in 1971 Who was 13-0 as a starter while posting a 1-4.8 quarterback rating for the Cowboys, which was hard to do almost 15 years ago. Allen Page won the MVP in 1971. Though sacks were not a statistic back then, Page did record three fumble recoveries and two safeties. The biggest reason for him winning is because the Vikings defense seemed unstoppable. But what about the other 10 players on that defense? Shouldn't they be in consideration for the MVP award as well? 7. Kurt Warner or Philip Rivers in 2008 No, I don't hate Peyton Manning. In fact, I think he had the best season by any quarterback and NFL history in 2013. No questions asked. However, the 27 touchdowns he threw in 2008 doesn't really scream MVP status. Even though the Colts had a great record, there were better performers at his position that year. Kurt Warner threw for over 4,500 yards in 30 touchdowns, while Philip Rivers eclipsed 4,000 yards and threw for 34 touchdowns. Granted, the Cardinals and Chargers finished 9-7 and 8-8 respectively, but Manning statistically did not have his best season that year. You can even argue James Harrison, Michael Turner, or even Ed Reed could have won the MVP in 2008. 6. Dan Fouts in 1982 So this is a weird one. In 1982, the NFL players went on a strike for 57 days, shortening the 16-game season down to just 9 games. Chargers quarterback Dan Fouts threw for 2,800 yards, which doesn't sound like much, but keep in mind that he threw that in only 9 games. If he played a full 16-game season, he would have thrown for 5,100 yards. So who won the MVP award in 1982? It was Washington Redskins kicker Mark Mosley. Yep, I said kicker. Mosley was 20 for 21 on field goals, including multiple game-winning field goals. Fouts has a strong case for why he should have won. 5. Eric Dickerson in 1983 In 1983, Eric Dickerson had arguably the best season by any rookie running back. He rushed for over 1,800 yards and had 20 total touchdowns as a rookie. So who won the MVP in 1983? Redskins quarterback Joe Thysman. Thysman passed for 29 touchdowns, which back then was pretty good, but to eclipse 2,000 scrimmage yards and 20 touchdowns is something else. Whenever you are making history and having one of the best seasons at your position, then you should win the MVP award. Thysman did not make history. Dickerson did. 4. Derek Thomas in 1990 When players like Derek Thomas get overlooked in favor of the most popular player in the most popular position, it does irk me a bit. Derek Thomas recorded 20 sacks in 1990, including 7 sacks in one game, which is still a single-game record. He made history at his position. Who won the MVP in 1990? 49ers quarterback Joe Montana, who recorded 26 touchdowns, less than 4,000 yards passing and 16 interceptions. Seems like an average season for a quarterback. Even Randall Cunningham, who rushed for over 900 yards and threw for 30 touchdowns to only 13 interceptions, had a better quarterback season than Montana. Montana was MVP mainly because he was 14-1 as a starter that year. A team's success shouldn't solely be the reason for winning MVP honors. 3. Priest Holmes in 2003 Sean Alexander won the MVP award in 2005 after rushing for 27 touchdowns. Priest Holmes did not. In 2003, Chiefs running back Priest Holmes ran for 27 touchdowns, which at that time was a new single-season record that he said. Yet, he only received three of the possible 50 votes. Peyton Manning, who I do not hate, and Steve McNair ended up sharing the award with both notching up 16 votes each. Manning threw for 29 touchdowns, which is good, but was average in Manning's eyes, and McNair threw for only 24. It was a perfect example of voting for the quarterback on the best team that year. 2. JJ Watt in 2014 This one probably infuriates me the most. In 2014, JJ Watt recorded 20.5 sacks, 78 tackles for a defensive end, which is impressive. Five fumble recoveries in interception, two defensive touchdowns, oh, and three touchdowns on offense. Yes, three receiving touchdowns for a defensive end. What more does the man have to do? So who won the MVP that year? Aaron Rogers. Rogers had an impressive season with 38 touchdowns at only five interceptions, but he did not make history at his position. JJ Watt made history. Let's use this analogy. Let's say for this example, sacks are to a defensive end. What passing touchdowns are to a quarterback? The NFA record for passing touchdowns in the season is 55. Rogers threw 38. The record for most sacks in the season is 22.5. Watt had 20.5. So if you find a common denominator, convert those sacks into passing touchdowns, then if Watt was a quarterback, he would have thrown 50.1 touchdowns that year. You're telling me that 50 touchdowns won't win an MVP? Plus the tackles and fumble recoveries for extra fluff to pad his stats? Now, many of you are going to say, well, Rogers is the more valuable player. Without him, the Packers would not be as good. The Texans are the same team without JJ Watt. And to that, I have to say to you, there is no definitive way of proving that. Who knows? What if the Texans were in a situation where they needed the ball back and one of Watt sacks led to a fourth down that caused the opposing team to punt and the Texans were able to score and win the game? And if you specifically disagree with my point about how JJ Watt should have won the MVP in 2014, then debate with me. I will stand by this point till I die. Okay, I've spent way too much time on this. Bottom line, sports riders need to quit their obsession with quarterbacks. And number one, Jerry Rice in 1987. Before Randy Moss broke it in 2007, Jerry Rice had a record 22 receiving touchdowns in 1987. What's even crazier is that he did this in only 12 games. Not 16, 12. If Rice did play 16 games, he would have had close to 30 receiving touchdowns. So who won the MVP award in 1987? Yep, another quarterback, John Elway. Elway threw only 19 touchdowns to 12 interceptions. To put that in perspective, Rice had more receiving touchdowns than Elway had passing touchdowns. My goodness, the obsession with quarterbacks is unreal. Feel like I left someone off the list? Let me know by leaving a comment down below or hitting me up on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter which the links to all social media sites is located in the description. Also, subscribe to this YouTube channel for more NFL content and top 10 lists.


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the second day of our conference. My name's Ed Adler. I am moderating a panel that I think everybody in the audience is going to enjoy, if not for the least of which, is the three gentlemen we have on this panel are iconic. They've been around forever. They've seen everything. And I think they're actually very fun people. So it's going to be a good combination. I'm going to take a shot at introducing you guys, but to give you an opportunity to correct me as I go through what I understand about your backgrounds. And the panelists that we have today are Robert Varone, Matt Borstein, and Bob Ritchie. As I said, they've seen it all. Now that they've seen a pandemic, they could probably say that they've seen it all. I'm going to start with Bob Ritchie, who currently works at Lone Star, which is, I would say, in my opinion, the foremost investor in distressed assets globally. The other parties we have on our panels, Robert Varone, who founded Ironhound, who I would say is probably the foremost workout advisory shop in the market today. And the last of our panelists is Matt Borstein, whose old colleague of mine and a very dear friend. And he's about to embark on a brand new fund doing high-yield assets. And he's got one of the more interesting backgrounds in and around this. To really give the intros sort of complete tell-all for the audience, I was trying to trace your backgrounds. I know Bob started at Aquin, and for those of you that don't know what Aquin is, it was the biggest NPL buyer in the 90s, a little fun fact, new co-spelled backwards, which is what every company was called coming out of bankruptcy back then. So he was buying NPLs. And then he jumped over to Lama, which was the Walton family set up a debt fund business where he was going to buy more NPLs and bonds and all sorts of cool stuff. And he had an experience probably way before anybody that we know of setting up one of these private funds. And then he jumped to this company called First Union, which ultimately became Wachovia. And I don't know how this happened. He became one of the best traders of CMBS in the whole market. So I can't trace how that all connects. And after I'll wait, in 09, Bob went to Lone Star, back to his roots. So without question to me, Bob can talk about this current cycle in the context of previous cycles, as well as anybody.  And that theme would be, you guys all work to companies that are no longer in existence. Robert was at Bear Stearns. I don't know if that's where you began, but that's where you begin to me, as probably a lot of the students in the audience are feeling in a job, in a job that my guess is introduced into the world of CMBS and the world of real estate financing. And he also went to this company called First Union, which became Wachovia. And I would say Robert's Day of Infamy was a cover of the journal, when the world named him Large Lone Varone. From my perspective, that scratches the surface of Robert's background. He is probably one of the better new business people I've ever met. And he was able to identify a segment of a market. Back in the early 2000s, candidly, a lot of people would like to say they identified it. But Robert invented the big loans for the big entrepreneurs. It wasn't just big institutional parties. And he, in a large way, reinvented the whole CMBS business. What I think is the most interesting pivot on all of these is the whole world in 08, 09 that competed with Robert in his job at Wachovia, ran off, raised money, and started a debt fund. This guy whom I would have said knew nothing about restructurings and workouts. And the last thing he ever wanted to do was be a mortgage broker, set up a mortgage brokerage and workout advisory shop in 09. And as I said before, he is the foremost. He's, at least from my seat, considered the best in the business. And then lastly, Matt Boerstein. He's probably got the most defunct companies in his history. In the 90s, Nomura, sort of invented CMBS. And young Matt was sitting there, wondering what the heck he was doing there. One thing that I think he gravitated toward was, boy, that we're going to create some pretty high-yielding assets. And the CMBS world, where the CMBS world really takes credit risk, is kind of where Matt wandered into. And he became really one of the better credit people in the industry. And then he went to this company called First Union. And he was distributing all of the high-yield stuff, and that became Wachovia. And off the back of that, which I don't understand this stuff, he went to East Hill. And I remember Matt saying to me a while ago, getting to see the inner workings of East Hill was worth it. Very interesting place. He then went to DB. And he ran the trading desk at DB. And then he went on to run the entire DB $30 billion operation. And of late, and I would say, as of this year, which is an interesting thing to us talk about, Matt pivoted to Oak Hill. And Oak Hill is a very well-regarded investment manager, and he's leading their real estate fixed income strategies. And I can't wait to hear what that means. But if you guys want to add anything, feel free to add it as you go through, or whatever messages you want to give about your current business, I'm sure we'll get to. I want to start with you guys. And I want to lay something out for you. And I was thinking about it. We are in the midst of the 12-month anniversary of probably what was the wackiest week of my career. And I'm guessing, as we think about it, all of ours. And I'll just give you a couple of things. March 11th, 2020, I watch a lot of ESPN. And I know at least one of you guys does, too. And I will never forget, and even my wife, who doesn't watch it, Rudy Gobert from the NBA, touching the mic and making a joke of what COVID was. And within that same story, they found out he had it. And sports started shutting down, which to me was probably one of the longer-lasting devastating effects of this. March 16th, 2020, the headline in the week that was said, yesterday was the worst day in the market since 1987. March 20th, 2020, hospital ships are on the news in the New York Harbor. Again, I can't even process this, even though I saw it. And then March 24th, which is roughly a year ago, the Fed announced it's going to buy as much debt as necessary. And the House and Senate are working on a $1.8 trillion stimulus package, which today, big deal, another $1.8 trillion. At that time, it was insane. OK, I will try to shut up now, because what I want you guys to try to think about is, can you relate to me? And Robert, for you, what were you thinking while this was going on? And I was trying to guess, because what I would be thinking if I was in your shoes is, wow, we're going to get a lot of fees. What were you thinking? Like, what was going on for you? And Bob, you and Matt have a little heads up, because I want all of you guys to tell me what you were thinking. Yeah, it's funny, because when I first heard about COVID, I was actually at the Deutsche Bank conference with Matt Borstein out in Aspen. And some people that Deutsche Bank hired got on stage, and they were talking about the world shutting down. And they were talking about Goldman Sachs can't travel internationally anymore. And all we cared about is, when were they going to finish, so we could go skiing? We literally had zero idea. And then I took the cab back to the airport with Matt. And Matt, unfortunately, got sick. I guess it was food boys, and he's throwing up. And I'm thinking, maybe he's got COVID. And that was kind of the start of COVID for us. So listen, we had a huge pipeline of debt placements that all died. And then within 12 hours, we had 25 workout assignments. So we really had no time to sit down and kind of try to figure it out. We went from deals that were alive to dead to new workouts. And it's kind of been that ever since. So that's, I did have about 86 straight meals with my kids, which I didn't do in my entire life. Like I never, ever did that. So Bob, it's natural a segue to Matt there with him sending up, but I don't want to do that, because I don't want to hear about Matt throwing up. Bob, this is what I was thinking. My guess is at Lone Star, you guys are prolific. Were you thinking, well, it's about time. Here it comes. Here comes the dismissed. That's absolutely it. I mean, it came fast, but it really felt like this was going to be the event that really eclipsed the financial crisis. Because financial crisis was about leverage. This was completely beyond the financial markets, right? This was something that really no one had seen, unless you went back to the 1918 Spanish flu, which no one in our business was back that far. So yeah, we really thought that this is it. It's going to change everything dramatically. And for about four weeks, it did. But not in the way that we were thinking. We were wrong about it. It did from a mark to market perspective, right? It caused a really violent mark to market episode in the markets, which I'll give credit to the Fed. I think they knew that that was going to be the response in the market. So they came in hard with liquidity, with securities purchases. And yeah, within max six weeks, most of that was tamped down. And the only casualties were a count them on one hand number of mortgage rates that were off sides on margin calls that needed to get preferred equity investment. So I mean, we for about two months charged hard into the distress round. The debt, it was very short lived in market to market land. And then the equity side, it was, okay, who's highly leveraged in assets that the cash flows are really vulnerable, right? Legion of lodging is one in particular. So we were all over. We thought Ashford, boom, we're gonna buy it all. We're among a couple talking to them.  They traded none. Braemar, their sister owns just a wonderful collection of irreplaceable assets. We're all over that several billion. We thought we would buy a few. Boom, they traded none. Pico Telco, list goes on and on. So by May, it was evident that this was just a flash market to market reaction. So we're a year later, it's hardly a flash. It's the most kind of screwed up thing we've all experienced, right? Yeah, no, for sure. So I'll kind of truncate the converse that my points are just that what we thought was going to happen immediately is likely to be happening throughout this year, throughout next year. As the forbearance, the title of this panel, it sort of gives way to the reality that there will be casualties. It just didn't happen in the short-term nature that we thought it would.   What really was crossing your mind then? And can you put that in the context of where we are? It wasn't a here we go again moment from all three of us on the call, if we kind of look back to where this was happening in 2008, 2009, believe it or not, we were getting pulled into rooms to buy different banks with almost overnight. So it didn't quite feel like that, but I will tell you, it felt like we landed on the ground in Colorado and there was basically a hotline from mortgage REITs, big and small basically calling their banks. At that point, I was obviously still a Deutsche Bank for any kind of relief, just to watch the action and their stocks, their stocks were down, what Bob, 75% almost overnight. They were getting margin called everywhere. They were, there was a desperation on the other end of the line from at least the mortgage REITs, pleading not to get marked and pleading for relief and then eventually pleading for some rescue capital. At the exact same time, I would say almost, believe it or not, overnight within a week, Deutsche Bank and I would say, and I had calls with every other bank, we have Morgan's family, Goldman Sachs, PBA, whoever else. I would say within a week, we had all set up some form of what we call LACs, Loan Advisory Committees and within a week, I would say max even two weeks. Every single bank had really jumped from prolific origination, shutting that origination off to identifying or at least bucketing loans that they thought were going to start to get in trouble, the loans that they were thought were gonna get in trouble immediately. And I would say by the end of March, we had identified, at least in the United States, we had about a $23 billion book on balance sheet and we had identified close to 25% of that that would need to be in negotiation with some type of forbearance considered, some type of foreclosure considered, some type of loan amendment considered. And that really, I would say, punctuated over the next six months of every single day, three times a week at the worst, we would discuss three to four loans a day and every bank was doing this. And the discussions were around, so we give three weeks of forbearance, three months of forbearance, six months of forbearance, 12 months of forbearance. So at this point last year, we really started on what I would call, and I didn't be interested to hear Bob and Rob's comments, but we started what is the ultimate pick-and-down-the-road exercise and really identified that the world, if anything, what it needed was just one big gigantic original. And I think where that starts to get interesting is that we are a year ahead of, we are a year literally to the day it passed that and the three months turned into six months turned into 12 months. And now I think those periods of forgiveness forbearance and kicking the can are finally coming to an end. And everything that Bob probably thought would have happened in the first four to six weeks of all this may start to happen going forward. I was gonna say, Matt, when it started coming, my lingering thought for several weeks was, thank God I'm not on a mark-to-market book anymore, right back on a trading desk, like you and Verone and $25 billion, the scar of that episode from Great Financial Crisis, a feeling like you're the tip of the dragon's tail just getting whipped around by the market. I mean, I gotta tell you, I did sleep a whole lot better even with the pandemic in March and April of 20 than I did back in, you know, seven to eight. It's a lot differently about the market piece. This is a good segue moment. And honestly, that was a long intro because this panel is called Forbearant of Prayer. And literally it's, what are the opportunities now? Over the next 24 or 36 months is distress builds, workouts, ring supreme, sponsors and assets remain impaired and dry, but dry powders at record levels. And Bob, you alluded to it and Matt, you did as well. We're now in a spot a year later that I think everyone is a little bit feeling okay. What we said before is it's about time, it's about to start. But Robert started already. Robert had 25 workouts a year ago. Do you still have 25 workouts? I think we always can, but we're a small group so we keep between 25 and 40 workouts going. But we've had that going since 2008, right? So they've changed a little bit and maybe now- How are they different now? I mean, the whole workout strategy is much different but that's a long discussion on CNBS 2.0 versus 1.0 and what banks and insurance companies are doing now versus the last time. But the thing that amuses me about our workout business and you're in it now Ed is, of a real estate guy buys a building for $100 million and just out of dumb luck, he does nothing right. He sells it for 130. He thinks he's the smartest here.  And now just out of dumb luck, the property value has dropped because of COVID and they want everyone in the world to bail them out. So you got to find the right people who understand what debt and equity is in that relationship to get a workout done. And that's what we spend a lot of time on. Spend a lot of time on. You skimmed over it, but I think it's important. What is the difference? And I would say all three of you guys probably have a pretty good perspective on 2.0 versus 1.0. I don't know what we're in anymore. 2.0, hey, whatever we are. But is the life of the last crash in CNBS better for investors than it is now? Or worse? Or what's the difference? Does any of you guys want to answer that? Is the bottom holders or so better? No, I'm talking about our audience of people that want to buy distress. In some ways, I mean, I'll throw it out there. Rob, you probably know better because I've been focused more in equity for the last couple of years. But it seems to me, with all the forbearance that the lenders are cautious about taking anything, they're being overly deliberate. So in some ways, the equity might be favored more than the debt because lenders don't want to take back another hotel. They sure don't want to take back another retail property. So it seems like they're kind of pushing the problem out but pushing it to the equity and avoiding taking it. Whereas maybe 10 years ago, it would have been a faster foreclose to say, hey, you're out of the money.  But if the problem becomes too big, sometimes the lenders, they don't want it back. They'd rather sit with the equity and let them give them time to figure something out. And I think Bob, I mean, to that point, I mean, on the bank balance sheet side of it is, look, you said in the very beginning of the conversation, 0809 was all about leverage, right? And lots of that leverage was in the banking system. You flash forward to now, even the likes of Boca Bank, we are so much, we were, I'm not there anymore, we were so much better, well-capitalized and so aware that the problem was that big that we could afford just the six months, 12 months of forbearance and- You couldn't get a trial date or a judge or a, you couldn't do anything. And that's what I think, Rob. You had to forbear, you had to forbear. Right, no one, there was no one to talk to, right? You know, now the question is, what happens now? That's what we're trying to figure out. Matt, you're on mute, I think. Yeah, so today you can't get a judge in 0809. Could you? I assume you could, it would be pretty easy. Oh, I could. Yeah. The idea of all these forbearances coming to an end sort of along, you know, the lines of when all the vaccines start going out. So do we all kind of agree the opportunities in front of us or Matt, do you think that? You must, you're starting a new business. Look, I think the opportunity is absolutely in front of us. I, you know, it's obviously sector and market specific, but for the first time I have actually a couple of things have happened. Yeah, there were some banks, it was not gigantic but there was some trading of loans at the end of the year, which should have been paid attention to. So I think there's a couple sides of that trade. A couple of banks, you know, were able to let go of some assets that were very, very, very distressed. You know, we'll wait to see how those work out. But a lot of banks also just kind of unloaded some stuff that they could get fairly good prices on. 90 cents, 92 cents, 94 cents. And I think one thing that we're seeing in the market right now is the purchasers of those loans are not banks. And those purchasers of those loans are starting to put the screws much harder to borrow than the bank ever did. So you finally have that borrower capitulating and simply saying, you know what? I finally need that rescue capital for the next two years. Otherwise I'm gonna get foreclosed upon. And I think not so much banks willing to pull the trigger in terms of moving paper, but you know, the paper now lies in the hands of non-banks. And either those non-banks are willing to pick up more paper or those non-banks are ready to start to play aggressive with their borrowers, take over their assets. And the borrowers finally having that moment of either gotta do something or I'm gonna lose this asset. All right, so you hit on a good subject in this. I'm gonna jump away from you from this because I don't wanna put you in a bad spot, Matt. But the rise of the debt fund was probably a panel from seven years ago, right? And then they continued to rise and rise and rise and now there's more debt funds than I could really even possibly consider. The banks, and I don't know how we think about this, but the banks generally have more healthy assets than the debt funds. And for Bob Richie, is that where you're sniffing as a loan star? Do you think some of these debt funds are gonna eventually pay the piper? And is there an opportunity there for distressed assets to move around? Listen, I think there is. And I'm thinking, paying everything with the similar brush because I think you've got, it all comes down to people wanting those funds to their credit decisions. But with as many as there are and the amount of capital that you have to put out at, at some level, the poor credit decisions made, right? So I think before COVID, we like to say there were groups out there that were making tomorrow's problems today. So to some extent, you're gonna see those come through. I'd say just broadly on debt, what we've seen, and we've followed all the portfolios that have come up to date, it seems like a pretty well-defined market for sub-performing to distressed that's come out, trading in the range of maybe nine to about 13% yields. And that it really almost doesn't matter, whether you're gonna be under right enough to foreclosure or not. So to us, that's probably tight. We generally see better opportunities on the equity side of the market right now. That may change as larger volumes of debt come out of special services and maybe some of the real estate funds. Is that tight by historical? Is that tight by historical standards or it's tight when they come out? I think so. When we look back at GFC, there wasn't a lot of flowing when I launched on January 9th. It was more 10, 11, right? Even at the 12. And that was generally mid-teens. Even like I'd say anywhere from 14 to 17, 14 to 18%. So now you're more like nine to 13. Now it hasn't been big size yet, but I think it's been constrained by the amount of capital out there. Did you put the guys that like Robert who do their job and they find that lowest most aggressive next bid to keep the market hemmed in? But I think that's a big question is how will price evolve when big size starts to flow? I mean, Robert, is liquidity distorting value right or wrong? And does it make your job demonstrably easier? I mean, again, in the workout business when you're representing a borrower who has an issue with his lender, it's very tough to bring, if the lender does their job, it's very tough to bring Lone Star to come in as rescue equity to fix that problem. Cause Lone Star's return is gonna be wider, it's gonna need to be subsidized by the lender and the lender is not willing to go down to the level for Lone Star to invest in. So I think this liquidity that comes in and fixes a lot of borrower's problems is really the borrower going to their ATM machine. You don't see a ton of workouts done with third-party equity. It's just because the sponsor who's been in the property for 20 years or five years or three years may have a longer horizon than Lone Star and just been, well, we'll put money in a level that Lone Star won't. Do you think it's also the market for recapitalization, preferred equity, right? And Matt, I'm guessing that might be something you get your sights on. We haven't as much, but it seems to be a lot of groups have stepped up to fill in that gap, that preferred equity, right? To give the necessary pay down and bridge them into, you know, a viable workout. Yeah, but let's be real, right? The property types that are under stress are malls and hotels, right? That cuts out 80% of the people who say they want to buy debt, right? Because they don't want to be in the malls because they don't know what to do with it. And the hotels, they don't know when the travel's going to come back and all that other stuff. So I take whatever people say to distress them out of money. Like if you take the Lone Stars of the world and the O-Kills and they say there's $2 trillion or whatever, $200 billion chasing distress, I times it by 0.9. Like it's much less. People don't want to, everyone talks about buying distress. Very few people actually. Actually, let me posit this to you differently for you. The institutional money, I agree with you. And it's largely because they're all waiting for a price. The family office is a, and the sovereign going direct is a very new phenomenon for all of us. And that's real money that's out there doing stuff. I don't know if you're seeing it, Robert or not, but, and Bob and Matt, I'm sure you guys are seeing that. Does that have legs? Look, I think that that has legs for sure. I mean, you've seen the first movers in this thing are family offices who can move extremely fast and even jump in faster than some of the credit funds to take advantage of this. So very early in all this, you'd seen the Reuben brothers, you've seen the Koch brothers kind of jump in where, I don't want to say out of nowhere, but you have seen them being very, very aggressive, very, very fast. But they're not going into help sponsors. They're going to buy the debt and foreclose the sponsor. Right? So what Ed asked about coming in as rescue equity, like we haven't seen a family office come in and say, hey, let me, I haven't seen many of them. Let me help you out. I mean, I think at large part, Robert, that's because price discovery has been going on for the entirety of this crisis. And it's going to go on for another 12 months. You think you guys all agree with that? Yeah. I think the second half of this year is going to see a big step up once people vaccinated and we start to return to some more normal environment. I think that the patience around forbearance is going to start to start and start to work then. And again, big separation between where people have legitimate tolerance for more, larger, well-capitalized borrowers. And again, it's like it always is the smaller, less capital ones or the ones that are likely to get just flushed through the system. You said a word there that triggered something and made normal. And I would suggest this particularly with the students in the audience that I get to speak to, everybody's wanting to know what is or when is the new normal. As somebody who generally is not normal, I struggle with that, but the notion of the new normal, aren't we talking about, let's get back to the quote unquote, good old days? A little bit, everybody kind of wants that. So do we have an idea as to when more of those good old days? So you guys have been around forever and seen every cycle in the world or are they still coming? Actually, Robert, the good old days are for you now, I would assume, but when were they? And I have a measure of the new normal that I'll throw at you guys in a sec, but do you? I don't know what the new normal is. I was away for the weekend for someone's birthday party and we were going to play golf. We had to take a COVID test to go on to the golf course. And no one can, like we're just, I will take a COVID test, we'll wait an hour and then we'll go play golf. I mean, it was, that may be the new normal. I don't know, I don't know. You got good old days, Matt. Was it when we were working together, I hope? Yeah. Look, I think it's hard to, I am having a very hard, I'm trying to put on my old hat as a lender and kind of my new hat as an investor. I think Bob and I would argue as an investor right now, there's nothing akin to good old days. Like this is just a extremely hard environment and a frustrating environment. I am starting to question a little bit more if there is ever a return to quote unquote, little days. And I think some of these concepts around even the kind of like the buzzword I find this week is I think they call it three option working. Where you work from home, you'll go to the city on occasion for meetings and stuff like that. But then in addition to that, you also have some type of suburban office near you. That's not from your, that's not in your home and also not in the city. We could also get work done. And maybe that has some leg. So I think I am almost populating a theory that maybe the return to the good old days at least in urban areas, starts first as cities really become places almost like amusement park, places to visit. If you think about New York city and restaurants get turned on, Broadway gets turned on, museums, more culture. I think you could certainly see a nice snapback believe it or not in hotels, believe it or not in some retail. But I do question if everybody all of a sudden is just going to be in New York city okay to live and work again. So I think it's going to continue to really, really be hard to define the good old days. And I think those good old days if you're a principal investor are when you're in a market where there are opportunities to invest where there's value, there's good value. And you can identify those sectors with them. So Lone Star right now, just to kind of give you a lens in, we're focused on multifamily for our value add fund, new build sunbelt markets, wide, great growth prospects. You don't have to do a whole lot of physical work. Like we did 10 years ago when we were doing workforce housing. It's a lazy kind of way to get return into good growth market. Then on our higher yielding fund, we're focused on the sectors that Robert and Matt were both kind of hinting at that are impaired. Lodging for sure, office, which is still kind of frozen, seniors housing is really attractive in retail. And those four, the most affected and then trying to find opportunities there. So to us, things are starting to flow and seniors, we got a couple of larger portfolios under contract and retail, we just picked up one in the Southeast that's a nine digit investment, which is a big one and have an underwater owner. So I'm kind of looking at 21 thinking if we can find in those four or five sectors, value that's attractive that we couldn't have pre COVID that's gonna be our good old days this year, right? As you roll forward to 22 and things are more fully recovered done, then it gets hard again. Like where the heck you find in that good value? I think you're gonna be able to find it this year.  So I'm not exactly sure where I want to take this, but I do want to talk about New York City in two ways. Before the pandemic and not just New York City, but before the pandemic, it's my view that New York was already feeling a little bit of hotel stress because of a big buildup of supply from prior years and a little bit of a slowdown in the economy. And then the pandemic may very well have kind of acted as kind of a flushing of those that can or can't survive. And retail in New York City was feeling the stress because the inlines in the malls were getting beaten up around the country and paying so how rents got to be a little bit more difficult. So now we're in New York City, the amusement park. You need hotels and you need retail. Does that really all come back? I mean, and I'll just posit the one thing about hotel, the hotel cycle has been so much more rapid in New York than any other economic cycle around real estate. And that's not changing. So as soon as there's the rooms fill up, they build hotels or you convert apartments to hotels. And as soon as they empty out, you convert them back to apartments, right? That has more or less been the cycle for our entire careers, but the COVID thing amplifies everything is kind of what I think. And I would leave you this before you guys comment. I think Barry Sternlich said it at the beginning of the pandemic about retail. And I don't think he was trying to just say malls, but he said that retail and commercial real estate is a 70 year old with a pre-existing condition. And then while the metaphor is a little bit sick, it's pretty easy to understand and identify. So New York City hotels, retail, what do you guys think? And Robert, are you working any of these things out?  I would say that's probably 70% of our pipeline right now. It's interesting if you look, if you just give you an insight to what the lenders are thinking. The lenders they agree with Barry, retail has changed from a macro level, Amazon is not going away. And a lot of these street level retail stuff can't even pay their real estate taxes if they do find a tenant, let alone debt service and a return to the equity. So there needs to be a big reset. People have to take big losses, equity and lenders have to take big losses. On the hotel side, the lenders are very, very optimistic on the vaccine. And for the most part, we'll kick the can a little bit, but are not offering discounts and are not offering kind of the AB subordinations or the things we've done in the past, just because they feel like 12 months from now, the world, they may be overly optimistic, people are gonna be traveling again. I am always going long New York City. I think your students given the chance would rather work in New York City than graduate Columbia and go work in Boise, Idaho or Austin, Texas. Like it's still the best and the brightest. The young people especially want to move to New York City and try to make their mark. So I'm a huge believer. Matt, you're building a new business.  I would say, believe it or not, yeah. So I am in the process of, let's say, I'm the first real estate employee at Oak Hill. I'm in the process of hiring five people. I would say, and that's across all levels from managing director down to analyst and associate level. I am without question, I think it's the tale of two worlds. And Rob has a great saying, real estate people have a work from work policy as opposed to a work from home policy. And I would say in the real estate sector, everybody I'm hiring is the older people are excited to get out of their house to simply, even though Rob had 86 straight dinners with his children, a lot of us don't want to have the 87 ever again. So you have a lot of people wanting to go back from work there. I am starting to see, and don't forget, if I'm hiring two or three analysts and associates, that means I've probably interviewed over 20. And the one thing that I am starting to see across the board at that level are there were just an unbelievable amount of, this is actually having my go to bank head on as well as my Oak Hill head on. There were an unbelievable amount of analysts, associates and DPs who did go back to their parents' houses. They went to where the weather is nicer. They just have scattered, for lack of a better word. And for the first time I am seeing a little bit of momentum at those levels, analysts, associates and DPs of, you know what? I do want to come back to the office. I'm seeing my friends come back to New York City. I'm seeing a chance that I didn't have in the past, which is to upgrade my apartment, upgrade my apartment with tons of concessions. Interest rates are still low. Maybe I'm thinking about buying a place. So I am, as I interview and hire, especially at the younger portion, I am seeing people do what we all did when we were younger, have their burning desire to get back to New York.  Not only am I coming back to New York, but I'm going to be able to get a better apartment than I had before. Or I'm going to be able to come back to New York and actually consider buying a place because the prices off 30% and interest rates are still low. So on one hand of the equation, you are seeing some pullback. Having joined a brand new firm that has $50 billion of AUM has been around for 33 years. I would say the real estate people are the only people who want to come back to New York. And we are moving into what's arguably the nicest space in all of Manhattan right now. We're moving into one Vanderbilt. And I could tell you that 80% of the firm really wants to either be totally inoculated or they want to make sure that everybody's vaccinated before they come back. So I really anticipate moving into this brand new incredible office space. Yeah, but that's bullshit, right? This could be the real estate people.  You're not doing it in New York, Rob. Right, but they have an excuse. I was away this weekend, half the people I went with from LA. I guarantee you when they go out to LA on the weekend and they're telling their boss, oh, I can't go to the office. But meanwhile, they're down in Cabo drinking and hanging out by the pool on the weekend. So people are using this, listen, Matt Borstein and Bob Richie could run a successful career from home. A 21-year-old cannot build a career and advance in a career working from home. Neither could a 30-year-old, period, I mean. All right, I got a good one for Bob then, since you can run a successful career from home. Bob, I actually think you could run a successful career from anywhere, but I made up a thing for us here. I want you to fill in the blank is, getting through the pandemic has been tough. Thank goodness for Zoom, but finish the thought. Yeah, I mean, listen, Zoom is better than a phone call, but it's still terribly inferior to in-person meetings, right? In-person lunches or dinners. So I think it's a technology that it will be used, right? And at the margin that the meetings that you would have hopped a plane for that perhaps aren't urgent. Yeah, you did use them, but I'm not a believer that Zoom has permanently transformed the nature of business and we won't get on planes to see people and we won't go down the street to see Matt at once. Listen, you don't have a license, do you? No, I think it's a tool. It's like a phone, right? But there's nothing, but as long as humans are involved, there's no substitute for being in the office, being present in front of people at meetings. Command attention, physically present. You can't when you're on a phone or even on a phone. So I think it is a tool, but I've never been a believer that it represents a permanent transfer. And I do think, you know, we may use a little less office and we may not be five days a week in the office, but I think we'll be going back. I started going back after Labor Day, like four days a week. And for me, it works better, but you know, I'm kind of a preacher of that generation, but I do think you're better in the office for a number of reasons. Also just pure, if you're trying to get a yes from someone, it's easy for someone to say no over text, over email, or over Zoom. You will have a much higher likelihood of getting yes if you're face-to-face with someone. Like it's easier and it's, you know, it's easy to say no to someone over tech Zoom or an email. Look, I'll take it one step further, Ed. I mean, I knew building a brand new business over Zoom would be challenging. I can say very matter of factly, it has been amongst the more challenging things I have ever embarked on. Not to be able to interview candidates in person is really, really hard. Not to be able to feed off the culture of the place that I just joined has been really, really hard. You know, we have all of us working great jobs and are exposed constantly to the best and the brightest, but just think about it, you know, after 20 years on the street, you know, I take a quasi-dream job at a big private equity house and today, you know, from courtship to starting, I have only met the boss of the firm face-to-face and I have not met face-to-face anybody else in the entire organization. It's all we've done, it is over Zoom and through technology. And to Bob's point, it's a tool that has been helpful but for me and my new employees to really understand the culture of the place and how the place works and how investment decisions are made, doing that over Zoom is, it's just awful. And, you know, I do think how much more advanced I would be as I started on January 3rd in the office versus starting January 3rd and still being at home. And I think the real, I was just gonna add, I think the real question, the last year we had to do Zoom, right? Because we were shut down, right? We couldn't go anywhere, we couldn't see anyone. Now, as everyone's getting vaccinated and there's the choice, right? To start returning, started having meetings or do Zoom, that'll be the real test. And I think you'll see Zoom usage, you know, it'll be there, but I think it's gonna drop pretty considerably. I think people are gonna start saying, you know, I wanna be back, I wanna take these meetings, right? I wanna sort of have that bit of office return, some normalcy. Does the unzooming, which we're all craving, it sounds like, does that lead to more distressed opportunities? Don't only answer it. Maybe you're closer to that poll. Say the question, does the unzooming lead to more distress? You already said getting to yes is easier face to face. Are you gonna dislodge assets from people or are we gonna find things better? Oh, I think unzooming is gonna put more people to offices and maybe create less distress, right?  Wow, Bob, do you agree with that? Yeah, I'm not sure, Zooming ever has a good effect. I think it's the passage of time and, you know, when regulators, you know, look in banks, when they look at their warehouse lines, things that have been modded and they're now going on past their first anniversary and if they can't stand on their own legs, I think patience is just gonna start to we're thinking if there's not a clear plan to get them back to being viable, whether that's preferred equity in a workout with Rob or whether it's sale of the debt and clearing with Matt or just full fashion foreclosure. I don't think this sort of suspended animation, we're gonna go for, you know, second anniversary. I think it's gonna be rare. I think the patient's gonna start to work then. Okay, we got about five minutes left and the program that's sponsoring this, the Masters in Real Estate programs got about 150, 170 students that have had a year plus of Zoom school. And my little experience with some of these students so far is they're craving mentorship, they're craving advice. And you guys all truly qualify, maybe not as a mentor for my children, but for plenty of people, you guys would be capable of handling it. Yeah, a little bit of parting shots, some thoughts in and around that. It's a portion of our audience, but no offense to the very successful and or otherwise people that are out there watching this, it is the most important portion of our audience.  Although a year and a half ago, somebody would have said, yeah, there's a pandemic gonna shut down the world. I'm sure you would have said BS, but can you give some parting shots to the students, some thoughts or some, you know, wisdom? And I guess, I guess, Winston, I'll turn to you first as a guy who used to sit on a mountain in Tibet giving wisdom to everyone. Yeah, you have some advice, some guidelines, something you could think about or just general thoughts about the world we live in today. Yeah, I think the world, and look, I think it's great being on with, with both Robert and Bob, but look, I am of the opinion and to be quite honest with you, this is an opinion, very frankly, that I have been fortunate enough to learn, from Ed, from Bob and from Rob, but life in my opinion is about transactions. And if you are coming out of college, if you're coming out of grad school, the most important thing you can do is be involved in transactions. And whether that's at a brokerage, whether that's at a bank, whether that's at an investment bank, whether that's at a workout shop, whether it's at a prolific place like Lone Star, there's just no substitute for being in the flow, constantly being in transactions. And as a result, you're always around different types of deals, different types of debt, different types of capital stacks, but more importantly, different types of people. And those types of people will give you a roadmap to what you're going to do in the future. Well, tough act to follow, I'd say. Otherwise, other than you could, we can all say, yeah, we agree. Anything to add or words of wisdom, Robert, if you could. I mean, I always, I tell my, the guys, it's all about at-bats. Like I do believe what Matt said was dead on. Someone said to me, you could go work in a conduit doing loans under 40 million bucks or go work in a large loan group where you do loans over 200. I would do the conduit stuff the first few years of my career all day long because it's at-bats. But as I think you need grit and the world's filled with smart people and there are a dime a dozen to be quite honest with you. It's the ones who have grit, the ones who could have a conversation, the ones that could solve problems. And I would just, they put down your phone, I mean, put down your email and call people, like pick the phone and call people, the other thing I always say to them. Younger guys. Yeah, the point I'd add to that without being redundant is just that commercial real estate investments in finance has all of us, right? Our generation in whatever, 10, 12 years, there's gonna be a massive changing of the guard, right? You look at the leadership in commercial real estate across the REITs and on the buy side, the bonds and everything. It came in the 90s, right? During that crisis of the SNLs and REITs were invented and CNBS was invented. Basically all the leadership positions are most where people are kind of hailed from that generation. In some short number of years, right? Whether it's 10, 15 years, they're all riding off into the sunset. So I think as an industry, there's a massive generational opportunity over the next, you know, five to 15 years at a time when it's growing, the sectors, right? If sectors and commercial real estate weren't considered real estate, towers, day of the centers, right? All of these different forms that use REITs, they're proliferating real estate, so it's growing. So I think it's really exciting. And I'd share Matt's, find a place, right? May not be perfect, but get in there and twist yourself up and just get as much experience in exposure because it's experience that you thirst.  It's where the knowledge curve is. All right, this is the moderator's blessing as I get the last word. And my last word to you guys is thank you. You guys really do appreciate this. I think the school truly appreciates it. I thought you'd fight more as brethren from that place that used to be called Wachovia, so I'm kind of happy I didn't have to referee. My word to the students, kind of relax. You know, just kind of be level-headed. You can be aggressive, you can go chase whatever jobs you kind of think are the right jobs for you, but sit back and think, right? And as somebody who's OCD and neurotic, as a couple of you guys probably can attest to, I need to take my own advice all the time.  And I kind of want to end with song.  And end with a little song for us, at least an excerpt from a song that we all kind of know, at least us old guys do. And we could just say, thank you very much. And there you go. I think we've earned it.


I need y'all to do all this god work. I was supposed to do walk through a story mode Like what the do you think I had time to just blow to do walk through a story mode? I let me edit this walk through on story mode. Like what do you think I am dude? Listen man when y'all have successful youtube channels and twitch streams y'all can tell me what content to do Okay, you know, I know what I'm doing Just the dog days everything right now, bro. It's just a grind. It's a grind.  You can't switch games. You can't you guys that you get you can do anything you want if you do it consistently It's hackled Jordan Davis. He's my really zero AP. Huh?  I think my dare is like I'm gonna get thrown over right here No, I didn't what are you throwing dude pick it off. Please somebody I feel like when people had post-up It's so hard to like rush three people really is gunslinger fearless. What's this right here? Route tech on the tight end.  I'm sending every person on my team right now there's like By wilson I wish somebody would run the same play with me not happy. I wish like what plague what plague can you not stop It's probably pa boot overs probably the best one play In the game if somebody could cheese that but people that run that play only they suck for the most part I did shade down right there I shaded down because I wanted my flat zone on the right to be a hard flat Just so you couldn't throw pa reed to the running back because I shaded down it made dare just like press really hard pause And that ended bad, you know Come on man.  I really do. I feel like I'm not moving the way I want to really I mean, dude touch down and we just got instant shitted Just catch it. Catch. This is the best defense in the game. This one for a bunch I don't know about for anything else, but for a bunch.  I really don't even know But boys, if you don't click on there, he doesn't catch that at all. Just verts.  I'll really think you're going to cross her right there. Come on. Debbie It's free. That's free.  Come on, man Mine. Thank you Don't get an end zone Let the chat choose my plays run goal line play action like what actually, you know, let's try to just hit them With this really he's just been running covered too I I had the bowels running. I couldn't dude. I the way I get shetted is like unfair, dude Bro, why am I greedy for this like the way I get shetted is unfair. It really is That's all I even say You don't get this fumble the ball, bro If I had a little more time to be able to stand in the pocket, I'd be able to dot it But it's all good defense. W a sound ready going crazy. Let's go, man I think I want to go to my running back like there's just no chance I want to go to my running back at any chance unless I'm sweating. He's running a play action and I get a one-on-one and Honestly, there's anything better to go to. It'll be real. This Reggie white with double or nothing inside stuff and double enough And deep as a rally and unpredictable, dude I don't want to ever want to throw to the running back unless I'm sweating for five yards I want to do a crossing round for 50 yards or post for a touchdown or a fate like I never like I don't know if y'all knew here, but I never in my life want to You know saying Come on, man. Who is like dude this shutting this out of me, man Who are these demons man? Michael Parsons like bro? Oh my god, great catch animations. Love it call time out for me, kid Now now this is a free touchdown really that thanks.   That's this fat. This dude's a monster Jermaine Johnson.  Who's a tank call time out again? Oh my god. How did y'all not block because oh man, that's tough That's tough. I ain't have nothing to throw to anyway. That's what I mean, bro If you wouldn't use timeouts, I couldn't have done that like I would have gotten in trouble because the clock was running so much I probably passed a random ball too much though really All right, he's running just cover two like literally no adjustments here boys. There's there's no adjustments on the field It's just cover two So there's a touchdown every play. He's been just user in it when I when he so what I have to do Is kind of lure him to sleep, right? See he's he's on Mike Evans I don't know who this Mike Evans is mid zone out my way all this while right Like he's going to just bail. He's going to bail to the post. Oh, no, he's on somebody else That's good defense.   You have to all right. No big plays here. It's like come on, dude Need you to be good Russell Douglas No huddle Good good drive dude. Good drive. What's up boys? Let me tell you about thrust masters This is the controller I've been using for over a month now I was having trouble with all my other ones, you know, they're not the best made things So the people at thrust master partnered with me sent me out their new controller to try it out and show you guys man I used it for a month to see if I liked it. I didn't want to tell you about anything. I didn't like I absolutely love it. All the parts are great. They actually make flight simulators and racing simulators for all the professional Circuits of flight simulating and racing. So they said let's take our technology and bring it to xbox They've made this controller. You guys can click click the link below. Make sure you check it out over there It has buttons on the back, you know, most people have paddles. This actually has buttons embedded So much better than that every single thing on this this controller is customizable You can actually take off the grips on the side, you know, and they can change whatever color you want I actually got the standard black ones you can take these out if you want blue ones red ones green ones You see I just got the all black with a little bit of red That's more my style whatever you want man. I have green ones orange You can do all that if you want to change the layout switch your d-pad and your thumb stick You can do that as well. All the buttons are super clean Love this controller, man You guys click the link below and check out the control that I'm using myself To put all these gameplays together. Who's my quarterback? Coley, that's a question that you could answer yourself by watching for like 30 more seconds, dude I just know what you want. It's like kicking like come on. Not even what abilities Not even what like why do you like them? Just who is it? I'm gonna try this play right here My bro, this should be a touchdown. The problem is I can't block dudes bro There's actually like hardcore crackheads.  It's pretty easy. Now we get a quick snap right here Ah, he's flipped the wrong way. I can't really quick snap this.  Do y'all see like what's going on with my guys blocking? Does anybody see it? Zachary's don't like ones Taylor. That's all we wanted here boys Bro, look how deep they've He's gonna have inside stuff, ain't he let us double team so I don't lose 10 yards here He's gonna have two inside stuff I still lose 10 yards, but I got the best stick in the world The defense here we lost and of course only dubby gets intentional groundings, right? Only dubby gets intentional groundings.  He hasn't moved his safety I'm gonna stare out this way.  I think he's on my Kevin's right there Sometimes I like the face snap to see what they're on He didn't show me Oh, he's on that guy randomly That guy God, bro, that's what I mean. This dude just lurked on somebody crazy. I got a kick Yeah, it's just not fair for us strict team teamers now. They put these cards.  Please drop the ball, man Not Julio Jones out there pick Dude, oh my god. I'm about over this game today max protect. Just snap pa counter go is just giving me hell, huh Pick let's go Malcolm And to the crib them.   Will it work here? It's just covered too, right He's got a lot of man ups. I think he guards the running back himself here Try to get a double team to roll out here It was just so bad. I have no idea what's going on on his defense I'm gonna try something here because I don't like his user in the weak side of safety here. Oh, he didn't that time damn He just threw it right to him. He threw right to two tall Jones. Like you couldn't make it up Like it could it like it like it It just it just does what right to him. He literally do the ball right to him I never learned my lesson that you can't throw them fades out of out of clear out like you really can't Bro, I move them back. Please pick this off, dude. Thank you.  It's not for you, bro It'll be a big bomb if you don't man.  Oh We gotta get the bottle there blunt like three times right here, right? Nice nice. You're the best wire series on eagle steam team buggy. Is that a question you gotta ask? Damn no fight No fight. No fight buggy the vante Smith a.j. Brown to Sean Jackson. Come on, bro Are they the best receivers in the game? No, like no, they're all 5 11, but they're tough