From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Activio 2019, Data Driven. Brought to you by Activio. Welcome back to Boston, everybody. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host, Stu Miniman, John Furrier, who's also here today. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in on-the-ground tech coverage. This is day one of Activio 19, Data Driven conference. Hashtag, Data Driven 19. Greg Karamaitis is here as the Senior Vice President of Fantasy Sports at DraftKings. Greg, thanks for coming on, what a cool title. Yeah, it's a joke with my wife. Anytime you can be working in fantasy sports, it's a great place to be. Everybody's a little bit jealous. So the formula's easy, right? Offer big, giant prizes, and everybody comes, and that's all there is to it, right? Yeah, anybody can come in. I just have the dream job right now. So hugely competitive market.  We hear you on the radio, we check out your websites. I mean, take us through sort of DraftKings and your ascendancy, how you got here. Gotcha, so companies started in 2012, initially around sort of the major big American sports. And then really, as we started to scale out, we saw there was a huge consumer interest in the product. Players that would come on were very, very, very sticky. And we'd just been kind of pushing on, pushing on growing that user base. So the initial founders are three former analysts that have come on. It's always been sort of a very analytically driven company. So they looked at what we were dealing with, we had LTVs that were way higher than our CACs. So let's keep marketing and growing and growing and growing and finding out ways to offer a better product. So over 2015, we did a major marketing blitz, blew up the company, absolutely huge. And since then, we've been just constantly innovating, adding new sports, adding new features, and adding ways to add on the product. And then even more recently, just about a year ago, we expanded also into online sports betting over New Jersey as that's become a legal product across the US. So it's been a great time to be at the company. A lot of fun. What was your first sport? Was it like Amazon started in books and then scaled out? What was your first sport? So it's actually the first sport was baseball because of the time that they actually launched. So it was the middle of April, sporting calendar's a little bit thin right then. So it was baseball to start and then once football season started, that's really when things take off. And you said 2015 is when you started the marketing blitz. And I remember just hearing the ads and it was just intense. I was like, wow, this company's going for it. So you sort of took all the chips and went all in and it worked. That's part of the lifeblood of the company. We're a company that ends up being taking risks but we take calculated risks. So at any given point you sort of say like, hey, what is the range of outcomes over here? We're not playing for second place. We want to be a market leader. So you have to take risks in order to be a market leader. So let's take calculated risks. Let's make sure we're not being insane. But we did the math. We figured out this is a worthwhile shot. We pushed in for it and it really took off from there. Love to bet on short things. Greg, we know the people that play the fantasy sports feel that data is what differentiates whether they're going to win or lose. Talk to us a little bit about the data journey inside your business and how that helps differentiate DraftKings in the market. Yeah, so we think DraftKings is one of the most analytically based companies definitely in the market but also in sort of like of general companies right now. We use our analytics platform to inform pretty much everything we do. And to your point, you're joking. It seems like fantasy sports is easy to throw out some giant prizes there and everything will take care of itself. Running a fantasy sports company, if you throw out a contest that's too big, you lose a ton of money. There's a lot of asymmetric risk in the business where if we're right, we make a little bit more but if we're wrong, we lose a ton very, very, very fast. So our ability to be very, very sound analytically is what allows us to sort of push the envelope and grow, grow, grow, but not lose our heads along the way. Some of the fun of that is really, when we first ran, I think one of the most game-changing contests we ran was actually back in October of 2014. It was the very first millionaire maker contest. I can still remember it was week five of the 2014 NFL season where we said, hey, this is crazy. We need crazy things to happen in order for it to work but if we run a $20 contest to enter with a million-dollar top prize and two million of total prizes, it could go viral, it could go absolutely crazy and if it loses, here's how it'll lose and here's how much it'll hurt us. It's a worthwhile risk, let's go for it. So that sort of energy of doing discipline analysis and constantly sort of then taking the risk on the back of it is what allowed us to grow a lot. And the brand value that you would've got out of that was sort of worth that risk in part anyway and you wouldn't have got too hurt presumably in terms of the financial situation. Exactly, we knew our downside and as long as you know your downside, you're normally in a pretty good spot to take those risks. So where do you see this all going? I mean, so the company has grown, you're at this kind of critical mass now. Like we said, highly competitive. If you knock down, if you take your eye off the ball. So how do you guys keep this going? So we have a huge challenge ahead of us over the next couple of years as sports betting becomes legal across the US. We need to make sure that we are one of the top competitors in that market. Sports betting in the US, we expect to be an absolutely enormous market. It'll probably be significantly larger than the fantasy sports market in terms of absolute revenue and even an order of magnitude more competitive. So we need to be executing at each step along the way. As markets open up, we need to be able to get into the market very, very fast. And that means our tech team needs to be working feverishly to make sure that we can hit the requirements that each legislator and each regulator puts on market entry in their state. We need to be making sure we're constantly figuring out what are the product elements that are absolutely critical for our users. Is it more around the live betting experience? Is it around the different markets that you offer? Is it around pricing? And how do we find these different levers and pull them to make sure that we're putting out a great product for users? And if we do that and throw a great product out for users, we're pretty sure we can make that market better. Maybe one-stop shopping, presumably, right? I mean, all sports, right? But then you've got these niche sports betting. I mean, the best example I could think of is horse racing, you know, where it's alive, it's got a video, it's got commentators on the ground that know the business really well. Is that, is it the strategy to go sort of horizontal and sort of be a one-stop shop or are you going to sort of pick your spots? What does the data tell you? You know, I think we're constantly talking about it. One of the things that allowed our fantasy sports business to grow so fast was going a little bit more horizontal. So we offered golf in mass at a time period when the primary competitor in the space, Fanduul, did not. And we built that product into one of our largest sports. It's, you know, right up there with MLB in terms of the actual size that comes in. As we've gone also horizontal, we've pulled in other places like NASCAR, MMA. Great sports that people are interested in. It gets more users into our platform. And honestly, if users are interested in a product, we don't want them to have to go elsewhere. We want to be able to have the offerings that any sort of, you know, critical mass type environment is going to have. Well, it's that experience, right? I like to shop at Amazon, you do too, because I trust it and it's the same user experience, right? Greg, one of the things I'm hearing from you is something that everybody tries for, but it's really challenging. That speed, how do you react that fast and move the company into new markets and new offerings and keep innovating?  You know, I think as a company, you know, from really every single person that we recruit and hire, we've been actually executionally disciplined throughout the company's history. It's something that our founders did a great job of instilling in the culture right out the gates, and we've tried to foster all the way along the way, which is all the best strategies of the world, they're going to fail if you can't execute well, and every single person down the company knows that, and we try to, you know, enable each person to be as autonomous as possible in their ability to execute their portion of the business. That allows us to move really, really, really fast.  There's a high degree of accountability behind that. You know, I'd like to say there's some magic recipe, there's some secret sauce, but it's a lot of just great people doing great work every day. Greg, you know, is there any of your competitors that they look at?  So, Boston's been a great market for us. We've expanded a ton over here, and the sports teams have been fantastic. Although the Bruins, it was a little bit sad about Game 7 over there, but, you know, it happens. So, is MLB the flagship? I mean, is that? No, I wouldn't say that. MLB was first primarily just of the time of the year when we launched. NFL is always going to be, or not always going to be, but for the foreseeable future, is the dominant U.S. sport, and will remain the dominant U.S. sport. Yeah, the reason I ask is like, I mean, kids don't watch MLB anymore. Maybe the playoffs, I mean, the games, there was a game, I think on some Father's Day, it was like almost five hours long. You know, up against golf, right? You can come in and out, but, you know, what are some of the trends you're seeing? Soccer, is that growing? NFL, obviously, is huge. Do you see sort of niche sports like Lax coming on? So, you know, starting point, NFL has been huge. We actually launched a new product a little over a year ago called Showdown, which allowed you to start to do fantasy for a single game as opposed to the combination of games. Love it. That's taken off fantastically, because that's tapping into more of the, I'm going to sit down and watch this game, and I would love to have a fantasy team on this game. That's really expanded the audience tremendously. I thought that was genius, because look, if you're out of the running, it doesn't matter. It's a week. On top of that, NBA and NHL are on fire. The NBA has put out a great product as an actual sport league. You know, the finals were great. You hate to see the injuries, but it was a great final series, very competitive. The NHL finals has been very, very competitive. Golf is growing phenomenally as a sport. We saw a far more interesting golf than I ever anticipated when I had first started with the company, and it's one of the most exciting things. When the Masters comes each year, every screen is turned to it, and we see huge player numbers kind of coming into that one. Beyond that, NASCAR, what's been interesting, NASCAR's been having a tough couple of years, but the truck series for us, we launched it this year, and the trucks have been great. I don't know if you've watched NASCAR trucks, they're wildly entertaining. MMA, you got the big fighters, so every sport sort of has its moments. It's a matter of picking those moments and figuring out how to make the most of them. Do you see boxing at all, making the comeback? So we have thought about how to get boxing into a fantasy contest. We don't have it at the moment. We're putting a lot of thought into it. So we've been in the MMA space, and we've seen the growth out from there where that sport's doing great, and you look at places like Bellator, or the Professional Fighters League, as other leagues, and then boxing is the next step. There's a lot of interest there. I don't think they have the right products yet to be able to kind of engage with it that extra way, so that's one of the things we're working on. Also, you need a marquee fighter. You always need a marquee fighter to kind of help bring in the interest over on that side, so it'll be interesting to see with Pacquiao on sort of the downslide of his career at this point, and Mayweather hasn't been fighting much. It'll be interesting to see who's that next main fighter that emerged. Well, I grew up in an era of marquee fighters where they would fight, they literally fight six, seven, eight times a year, and you had huge names, and then MMA comes along, and it's really hurt this sport, but it feels like it's trying to sort of resuscitate. Yeah, I mean, I think these things can be a little bit cyclical. You get one marquee fighter out there, like, so my wife is Filipino, so I'm a huge Pacquiao fan now. We watch every fight, even when we were living in remote locations, that forced us to watch it at weird hours. He's a type of athlete that could bring popularity to the sport, so if there was a major US fighter that gains that degree of fame, people will be into it, I think. Do your analytics sort of have a probe into the activity at the fan level, at the sports level, not just the fantasy level or the betting level. Is that a sort of a predictor for you? Yeah, we see a lot of correlations between how many people play our sport, our fantasy game, and how many people actually follow the underlying sport. We can also see trends in terms of, if I'm from Boston, I probably pick more patriots in my fantasy lineups than the normal. And you can actually see that as people play different sports, that the number one QB drafted in Boston is almost always gonna be Tom Brady, and once you leave there, you start seeing Aaron Rodgers pop up the list really, really, really fast.  So what do you think that is? Do you think it's fan affinity, or do you think it's this sort of lack of knowledge outside your sort of circle of trust? I think it's probably a combination. I mean, I could say is, following the Celtics in the mid-2000s, I knew the depth of the Celtics bench and how they would use their rotation better than anybody else, or probably better than anybody else, because the coaches would probably disagree. But it's like, I knew that James Posey was a huge value play on certain nights. Oh, he was awesome. I would feel the Eddie House nights. So, you know, on your local team, you probably know those players that are not the top, top echelon all stars, but the guys right beneath, you know them a little bit better and probably more comfortable using them. What's your favorite sport to participate in? So my favorite sport from a fantasy perspective is I play all the basketball. I play basketball just during playoffs, and I play baseball, but baseball, I'm strictly a fantasy player. I don't really follow the sport to play or play. I'm just playing fantasy. Okay. That's great. So what do you think of the conference here? Have you had any time to interact? I know you were swamped after coming off the stage. Yeah, you know, it looks like a great turnout over here. There's a lot of enthusiasm amongst the different people. I was a little bit late to the, late to show up this morning, so, and I got a bit swamped, so I'm eager to go and be able to catch up a bit more. Okay. Well, Greg, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was great to have you. Really a pleasure meeting you. Great challenge, sir. Great challenge. All right, keep it right there. Stu and I will be back with our next guest, John Furrier is also in the house. You're watching theCUBE from Actifio, Data Driven 19. We're right back.


33 Queen Sofenizba in Gaeling Of the entertainment given by Lord Jus in Demonland to Queen Sofenizba, fosterling of the gods, and of that circumstance which, beyond all the wonders fair and lovely to behold, shone her in that country, made her most to marvel, wherein is a rare example how in a fortunate world, out of all expectation, in the spring of the year, cometh a new birth. Now the returning months brought the season of the year when Queen Sofenizba should come according to her promise, to guest with Lord Jus in Gaeling, and so it was that in the hush of a windless, air-full dawn, the zimmy-ambient caravelle that bared the Queen to Demonland rode up the Firth to looking-haven. All the east was a bower for the golden dawn. Cartadza, sharp outlined as if cut in bronze, still hid the sun. And in the great shadow of the mountain, the haven and the lower hills, and the groves of Holmork and Strawberry Tree slumbered in a deep obscurity of blues and purples, against which the avenues of pink almond blossom and the white marble keys were bodied forth in pale, wakening beauty, imaged as in a looking-glass in that tranquillity of the sea. Nextward, across the Firth, all the land was aglow with the opening-day. Snow lingered still on the higher summits, cloudless, bathing in the golden light there stood against the blue, Dena, the forks of Nantra-Garnon, Pike or Shards, and all the peaks of the Thornback Range and Nevedale. Mourning laughed on their high ridges and kissed the woods that plung about their lower limbs, billowy woods, where rich hues of brown and purple told of every twig on all their myriad branches, thick and the fire with buds. White mists lay like coverlets on the water-medals, where Tiver-Randedale opens to the sea. On the shores of Bothry and Scaramsey, and on the mainland near the great bluff of Thremney's Hurk, and a little south of Owlswick, clear spaces among the birchwoods shod golden yellow, daffodils a bloom in the spring. They rode into the northernmost berth, and made fast to the caravelle. The sweetness of the almond trees was the sweetness of spring in the air, and spring was in the face of that queen as she came with her attendance up the shining steps, a little marklets circling about her or perching on her shoulders, she to whom the gods of old gave youth everlasting and peace everlasting in Kostra-Beloan. Lord Jus and his brethren were on the key to meet her, and the Lord brandocked a heart, their bowed in turn, kissing her hands and bidding her welcome to Demonland. But she said, not to Demonland alone, my lords, to the world again, and toward which of all earth's harbours should I steer, and toward which land, if not to this land of yours, who have by your victories brought peace and joy to all the world. Surely peace slept not more softly on the marooner in old days before the names of Goraes and which land were heard in that country, than she shall sleep for us on this new earth and Demonland, now that those names are drowned for ever under the whirlpools of oblivion and darkness. Just said, O Queen Sofenisba, desire not that the names of great men dead should be forgot for ever. Or should these wars that we last year brought to so mighty a conclusion to make us undisputed lords of the earth go down to oblivion with them that fought against us? But the fame of these things shall be on the lips and in the songs of men from one generation to another, so long as the world shall endure. They took horse and rode up from the harbour to the upper road, and saw through open pastures on to have a sure tongue. Lambs frisked on the dewy meadows beside the road. Blackbirds flew from bush to bush, larks trilled in the sightless sky, and as they came down through the woods to Beckfoot, wood-pigeons cooed in the trees, and squirrels peeped with beady eyes. The Queen spoke little. These and all shy things of the woods and field held her in thrall, charming her to a silence that was broken only now and then by a little exclamation of joy. The Lord Just, who himself also loved these things, watched her delight. Now they wound up the steeper cent from Beckfoot, and rode into Gailing by the Lion-Gate. The avenue of Irish use was lined by soldiers of the body-guards of Just, Gouldery and Spitfire, and Brandoc de Haar. These, in honour of their great masters and of the Queen, lifted their spears aloft, while trumpeters blew three fanfares on silver trumpets. Then to an accompaniment of loots and the oarboars and sitherns moving above the pulse of muffled drums, a choir of maidens sang a song of welcome, strewing the path before the Lords of Demonland and the Queen, with sweet white hyacinths and narcissus blooms, while the lad is mevrian and armour-line, more lovely than any Queens of Earth, waited at the head of the golden staircase above the inner court, to greet Sulfon Isber come to Gailing. A hard matter it were to tell of all the pleasures prepared for Queen Sulfon Isber and for her delight by the Lords of Demonland. The first day she spent among the parks and pleasure-gardens of Gailing, where Lord Just showed her his great lime avenues, his yew-houses, his fruit-gardens and sunk-gardens, and his private walks and bowers, his walks of creeping time, which being trodden on sends up sweet orders to refresh the treader, his ancient water-gardens beside the Brankdale Beck, wither the water-nifts resort in summer, and are seen under the moon singing and combing their hair with combs of gold. On the second day he showed her his herb-gardens, disclosing to her the secret properties of herbs, wherein he was deeply learned. There grew that zamalantician, which, being well beaten up with fat without salt, is sovereign for all wounds, and Dittany, which, if eaten, soon puts out the arrow and healeth the wounds, and not only by its presence stayeth snakes whosoever they be handed to it, but by reason of its smell carried by wind, and their smell at their die, and Mandragora, which being taken into the middle of an house, compeleth all evils out of the house, and relieveeth also headaches and produces sleep. Also he showed a sea-holy in his garden, that is born in secret places and in wet ones, and the root of it is as the head of that monster which men name the Gorgon, and the root twigs have both eyes and nose and colour of serpents. Of this he told a howl when taking up the root, a man must see to it that no sun shine on it, and he who would carve it must avert his head, for it is not permitted that man may see that root unharmed. The third day just showed the queen his stables, where were his war-horses and horses for the chairs, and for chariot-racing, stabled in stalls with furniture of silver, and much she marvelled at his seven white mares, sisters, so like that none might tell one from another, given him in days gone by by the priests of Artemis in the lands beyond the sunset.  The fourth night, and the fifth, the queen was at Dreperby, guesting with Lord Goldry Bluscoe and the Princess Armourline, that were wedded in Zajezekulor last yule, and the sixth and seventh nights at Owlswick, and their spitfire made her lordly entertainment. But Lord Brandoc de Haar would not have the queen go yet to croathering, for he had not yet made fair again his gardens and pleasantries, and restored his rich and goodly treasures to his mind after their ill-handling by Carinius, and it was not his will that she should look on croathering-castle until all was there established new according to its ancient glory. The eighth day she came again to Gaeling, and now Lord just showed her his study, with his astral-herbs of Orycholk, figured with all the signs of the Zodiac and the mansions of the moon, standing a tall man's height above the floor, and his perspectives and gloves and crystals and hollow-looking glasses, and great crystal globes where he kept homonculi, whom he had made by secret processes of nature, both men and women, less than a span long, as beautiful as one could wish to see in their little coats, eating and drinking and going their ways in those mighty globes of crystal where his art had given them being. Every night, whether at Gaeling, Owl's, Wick or Draperby-Meyer, was feasting held in her honour, with music and dancing and merry-making and all the light, and poetical recitations and feats of arms and horsemanship, and masks and interludes, the like whereof hath not been seen on earth, her beauty and wit and all magnificence. Now was the ninth day come of the Queen's guesting in demon-land, and it was the eve of Lord Jus's birthday, when all the great ones in the land were come together, as four years ago they came, to do honour on the morrow unto him, and unto his brethren, as was their one to four time. It was fine bright weather, with every little while a shower to bring fresh sweetness to the air, colour and refreshment to the earth, and gladness to the sunshine. Jus walked with the Queen in the morning, in the woods of Moongoth Bottom now bursting into leaf, and after their midday meal showed her his treasuries cut in the live rock under Gaelin Castle, where she beheld bars of gold and silver piled like trunks of trees, unhewn crystals of ruby, chrysopraes or hyacinth, so heavy a strong man might not lift them. Stacks of ivory in the tusk piled to the ceiling, chests and jars filled with perfumes and costly spices, ambergris, frankincense, sweet-scented sandalwood and myrrh and spikenoid. Cups and beakers and eared wine jars and lamps and caskets made of pure gold, worked in chast with the forms of men and women and birds and beasts and creeping things, and ornamented with jewels beyond price, margarites and pink and yellow sapphires, smiragds and chrysoberrels and yellow diamonds. When the Queen had had her fill of gazing on these, he carried her to his great library, where statues stood of the nine muses about Apollo, and all the walls were hidden with books, histories and songs of old dares, books of philosophy, alchemy and astronomy and art-magic, romances and music, and lives of great men dead and great treatises of all the arts of peace and war with pictures and illuminated characters. Great windows opened southward on the garden from the library, and climbing rose-trees and plants of honeysuckle and evergreen magnolia clustered about the windows. Great chairs and couches stood about the open hearth, where a fire of cedar logs burned in wintertime. Lamps of moon-stones, self-effulgent, shaded with clody-green tourmaline, stood on silver stands on the table and by each couch and chair to give light when the dare was over, and all the air was sweet with the scent of dried rose-leaves kept in ancient bowls and vases of painted earthenware. Queen Soffin has besaid, My Lord, I love this best of all the fair things thou hast shown me in thy castle of Gaelin, here where all trouble seems a forgotten echo of an ill world left behind. Surely my heart is glad, O my friend, that thou and these other lords of demon-land shall now enjoy your goodly treasures and fair dares in your dear native land, in peace and quietness all your lives. The Lord just stood at the window that looked westward across the lake to the great wall of the scarf, some shadow of a noble melancholy hovered about his sweet dark countenance, as his gears rested on a curtain of rain that swept across the face of the mountain wall, half veiling the high rock summits. Yet think, madam, said he, that we be young of years, and to strenuous minds there is an unquietude in over-quietness. Now he conducted her through his armories, where he kept his weapons and weapons for his fighting men, and all panoply of war. There he shot her swords and spears, maces and axes and daggers, offrid and damascened and inlaid with jewels, burnies and bouldrocks and shields, blades so keen a hair-blown against them in a win should be parted in twain, charmed helms on which no ordinary sword would bite. And just said unto the queen, Madam, what thinkest there were these swords and spears? For know well that these be the ladders' rungs that we of demon land climbed up by, to that seniority and principality which now we hold over the four corners of the world. She answered, O my Lord, I think nobly of them! For an ill-part it were while we joined the harvest, to contend the tools that prepared the land for it and reaped it. While she spoke, just took down from its hook a great sword, with a half-bound with plaited cords of gold and silver wire, cross-hills of latunes set with studs of amethyst, and a drakes head at either end of the hilt with crimson almond-dines for his eyes, and the pommel a ball of deep amber-coloured opal with red and green flashes. With this sword, said he, I went up with gazelot to the gates of Karsie, four years gone by this summer, being clouded in my mind by the back-wash of the sending of Gerais the King. With this sword I fought an hour back to back with Brandoc de Haar, against Corund and Carinius and their earblest men, the greatest fight that ever I fought, and against the fearfulest odds, which land himself beheld us from Karsie walls through the watery mist and glare, and marvelled that two men that are born of woman can perform such deeds. He untied the bands of the sword, and drew it singing from its sheath. With this sword, he said, looking lovingly along the blade, I have overcome hundreds of mine-enemies, witches and ghouls, and barbarous people out of Impland and the Southern Seas, pirates of Esomorquia, and princes of the Eastern Main. With this sword I got the victory in many a battle, and most glorious of all in the battle before Karsie last September. There, fighting against great Corund in the press of the fight, I gave him with this sword the wound that was his death wound. He put up the sword again in its sheath, held it a minute as it pondering whether or not a gird it about his worst, then slowly turned to its place on the wall and hung it up again. He carried his head high like a war-horse, keeping his gaze averted from the queen as they went out from the great armory in Gaeling. Yet not so skillfully, but he marked a glistening in his eye that seemed a tear standing above his lower eyelash. That night was superset in Lord Just's private chamber, a light regale yet most sumptuous. They sat at a round table, nine in company, the three brethren, the lords brand of Bihar, Zeig and Vol, the ladies Amaline and Mevrian, and the queen. They floated the wines of Crothering and Novasp, and blithely went the talk to outward seeming. But ever and again silence swung a thwart the board, like a gray pall, till Zeig broke it with a jest, or Brandoc de Ha, or his sister Mevrian. The queen felt the chill behind their merriment. The silent fits came oftener as the feast went forward, as if wine and good cheer had lost their native quality and turned fathers of black moods and gloomy meditations. Lord Goldry Bluscoe, that till now had spoke little, spake now not at all, his proud dark face fixed in staid, pensive lines of thought. Spitfire too was fallen silent, his face leaned upon his hand, his brow bent, and whilst he drank a man, and whilst he drummed his fingers on the table. The lord Brandoc de Ha leaned back in his ivory chair, sipping his wine. Very demure, through half-closed eyes, like a panther dozing in the noonday, he watched his companions at the feast. Like sunbeams chased by cloud-shadows across a mountainside in windy weather, the lights of humorous enjoyment played across his face. The queen said, O my lords, you have promised me I should hear the full tale of your wars in Impland and the Implant Seas, and how you came to Caucy, and of the great battle that there befell, and of the latter end of all the lords of which land, and of Gourais the twelfth of memory accursed. I pray you let me hear it now, that our hearts may be gladdened by the tale of great deeds, the remembrance whereof shall be for all generations, and that we may rejoice anew, that all the lords of which land are dead and gone, because of whom on their tyranny earth has grown and laboured these many years. Lord Jus, in whose face when it was at rest she had beheld that same melancholy which she had marked in him in the library that same day, poured forth more wine and said, O Queen Sophanisba, thou shalt hear it all. Therewith he told all that had befallen since they last bade her adieu in Costa Belorne, of the march to the sea at Muelva, of Laxus and his great fleet destroyed and sunk off Melikafkas, of the battle before Carsey and its swinging fortunes, of the unhullowed light and flaring signs in heaven, whereby they knew of the king's conjuring again in Carsey, of their waiting in the night, armed at all points, with charms and amulets ready against what dreadful birth might be from the king's enchantments, of the blasting of the iron tower, and the storming of the hold in pitch darkness, of the lords of which land murdered at the feast, and naught left at last of the power and pomp and terror that was which land, save dying embers of a funeral fire, and voices wailing in the wind before the dawn. When he had done, the queen said, as if talking in a drink, surely it may be said of these kings and lords of which land dead, these wretched, eminent things leave no more fame behind them that should one fall in a frost and leave his print in snow, as soon as the sun shines it ever melts, both form and matter.  On a sudden, Lord Brandoc de Haar stood up, unbuckling from his shoulder his golden boulderic set with apricot-colored sapphires and diamonds and fire-opels that imaged thunderbolts. He threw it before him on the table with his sword, clattering among the cups. "'O Queen Soffernisba,' said he, there has spoken a fit funeral dirge for our glory as for which lands. This sword Zeldornius gave me. I bear it at crothering side against Carinius when I threw him out of demon-land. I bear it at Melikafkas. I bear it in the last great fight in which land. Thou wilt say it brought me good luck and victory in battle, but it brought not to me as to Zeldornius, this last best look of all, that earth should gap for me when my great deeds were ended.' The Queen looked at him amaz'd, marvelling to see him so much moved that she had known until now so lazy mocking and so debonair. But the other lords of which land stood up and flung down their jewelled swords on the table beside Lord Brandoc de Haas. And Lord just spake and said, We may well cast down our swords as a last offering on which land's grave, for now must their rust. Seamanship and all high arts of war must wither, and now that our great enemies are dead and gone, we that were lords of all the world must turn shepherds and hunters, lest we become mere mount-a-banks and fobs, if it fell us for the chambering bestrians or the red foleyot. O Queen Sofanisba, and you, my brethren, and my friends, that have come to keep my birthday with me to-morrow in Gaeling, what make ye in holiday attire? Weep ye, rather, and weep again, and clothe you all in black, thinking that our mightiest feats of arms and the high southing of the bright star of our magnificence should bring us on to timeless ruin, thinking that we, that thought but for fighting's sake, have in the end thought so well we never may fight more, unless ye should be in fratricidal rage each against each, and ere that should be tied may earth close over as in our memory perish. Mightyly moved was the Queen to behold such a violent sorrow, albeit she could not comprehend the roots and reason of it. Her voice shook a little, as she said, my lord just, my lord brand up to ha, and you other lords of demon-land, it was little in my expectation to find in you such a passion of sour discontent, for I came to rejoice with you, and strangely it sounded in my ear to hear you mourn and lament your worst enemies, but saw great hazard of your lives, and all your held dear struck down by you at last. I am but a maid and young in years, albeit my memory goes back two hundred springs, and ill it befiteth me to counsel great lords and men of war. Yet strange it seemeth if there be not peaceful enjoyment and noble deeds of peace for you, all your dares, who are young and noble and lords of all the world, and rich in every treasure and high gifts of learning, and the fairest country in the world for your deonative land. And if your swords must not rust, ye may bear them against the uncivil races of Impland, and other distant countries to bring them to subjection. But Lord Goldry Blusker laughed bitterly, O queen, he cried, shall the correction of feeble savages contend to these swords, which have ward against the house of Garice, and against all his chosen captains, that upheld the great power of Caucy, and the glory and the fear thereof? And Spitfire said, what joy shall we have of soft beds and delicate meats, and all the delights that be in many mountain-demon land, if we must be stingless drones, with no action to sharpen our appetite for ease? All were silent a while. Then the Lord just spoke, saying, O Queen Sophanisba, hast thou looked ever on a showery day in spring, upon the rainbow flung across earth and sky, and marked how all things of earth beyond it, trees, mountainsides and rivers and fields and woods, and homes of men, are transfigured by the colors that are in the bow? Yes, she said, and oft desire to reach them. We, said just, have flown beyond the rainbow, and there we found no fabled land of heart's desire, but wet rain and wind only, and the cold mountain side, and our hearts are a cold because of it. The Queen said, how old art thou, my Lord just, that thou speakest as an old man might speak? He answered, I shall be thirty-three years old tomorrow, and that is young by the reckoning of men. None of us be old, and my brethren and Lord Brandoc Dahar younger than I. Yet as old men may we now look forth on our lives, since the goodness thereof is gone by for us. And he said, Thou, O Queen, canst scarcely know our grief, for to thee the blessed gods gave thy heart's desire, youth for ever, and peace. Would they might give us our good gift, that should be youth for ever, and war, and unwaning strength and skill in arms? Would they might but give us our great enemies alive and whole again, for better it were we should run hazard again of utter destruction, than thus live out our lives like cattle fattening for the slaughter, or like silly garden-plants? The Queen's eyes were large with wonder. Thou couldst wish it, she said? Just answered and said, the true saying it is that a grave is a rotten foundation. If Thou shouldst proclaim to me at this instant the great King alive again, and sitting again in carcy, bidding us to the dread arbitrement of war, Thou shouldst quickly see, I told the truth. While just speck the Queen turned her gaze from one to another round the board. In every eye when he spoke of carcy she saw the lightning of the joy of battle, as of life returning to men held in a deadly trance. And when he had done, she saw in every eye the light go out. Like gods there seemed, in the glory of their youth and pride seated about that table, but sad and tragical, like gods exiled from wide heaven. None speck, and the Queen cast down her eyes, sitting as if wrapped in thought. Then the Lord just rose to his feet and said, O Queen Sofenizba, forgive us that our private sorrows should make us so forgetful of our hospitality, as weary our guest with a mirthless feast. But think, tears, because we know thee, our dear friend, we use not too much ceremony. For we will be merry with thee, whatever be tied thereafter. So they bared good night. But as they went out into the garden under the stars, the Queen took just aside privately and said to him, My Lord, since thou and my Lord brandook the hear came first of mortal men into Kostra-Beloan and fulfilled the weird according to pre-ordainment, this only hath been my desire, to further you, and to enhance you, and to obtain for you what you would, so far as in me lieth. Though I be but a weak maid, yet hath it seemed good to the blessed gods to show kindness unto me. One holy prayer may work things we scarce dream of. Wilt thou that I pray to them to-night? The last dear Queen, said he, Shall those estranged and divided ashes unite again? Who shall turn back the flood-tide of unalterable necessity? But she said, Thou hast crystals and perspectives can show thee things afar off. I pray bring them, and row me in thy boat up to moon me ahead, that we may land there about midnight, and let my Lord brandook the hear come with us and thy brothers, but let none else know of it, for that were but to mock them with a false dawn, if he should prove at last to be according to thy wisdom, O my Lord, and not according to my prayers. So the Lord just did according to the word of that fair Queen, and they rode her up the lake by moonlight, non-speak, and the Queen set apart in the boughs of the boat, in earnest supplication to the blessed gods. And there were come to the head of the lake there went a shore on a little spit of silver sand. The April night was above them, mild with moonlight. The shadows of the fells rose inky-black and beyond imagination huge against the sky. The Queen kneeled awhile in silence on the cold ground, and those lords of demon-land stood together in silence watching her. In a while she raised her eyes to heaven, and behold, between the two main peaks of the scarf, a meteor crept slowly out of darkness and across the night sky, leaving a trail of silver fire, and silently departed into darkness. They watched, and another came, and yet another, until the western sky above the mountain was ablaze with them. From two points of heaven they came, one betwixt the four claws of the lion, and one in the dark sign of cancer, and there that came from the lion was sparkling like the white fires of Regal or Altair, and there that came from the crab were halty-red like the luster of Antares. The lords of demon-land, leaning on their swords, watched these portents for a long while in silence. Then the travelling meteors ceased, and the steadfast stars shone lonely and serene. A soft breeze stirred among the olders and willows by the lake. The lapping waters lapping the shingly shore made a quiet tune. A nightingale in a coppice on a little hill sang so passionate sweet it seemed some spirit singing. As in a trance they stood and listened, until that singing ended, and a hush fell on the water, and wood, and lawn. Then all the east blazed up for an instant with sheet lightnings, and thunder growled from the east beyond the sea. The thunder took form so that music was in the heavens, filling earth and sky as with trumpets calling to battle. First high, then low, then shuddering down to silence. Jusson Brandoc the Har knew it for that great call to battle, which had prelude the music in that dark night without her palace in Costa Belon, when first they stood before her portal divine. The great call went again through earth and air, sounding defiance, and in its train new voices, groping in darkness, rising to passionate lament, hovering, and dying away on the wind, till not remained but a roll of muffled thunder, long, low, quiet, big with menace. The queen turned to Lord Juss. Surely her eyes were like two stars shining in the gloom. She said in a drowned voice, Thy Perspectives, my Lord!  And he said, Not we, o' my lady, lest our desires cheat our senses, but look thou in my perspectives through the smoke, and say unto us what thou shalt behold in the east beyond the unharvested sea. The queen looked, and she said, I behold a harbour town, and a sluggish river coming down to the harbour, through a mirror set about with mud-flats, and a great waste of fenn stretching inland from the sea. In land by the riverside, I behold a great bluff standing above the fenns, and walls about the bluff, as it were a citadel, and the bluff and the walled hold perched thereon, or black like old night, and like throned iniquity sitting in the place of power, darkening the desolation of that fenn. The queen said, O' the walls throned down, or is not the great round tower south-westward throned down in ruin a thwart the walls? She said, All is hall and sound as the walls of thine own castle, my lord. Just said, Turn the crystal, o' queen, that thou mayest see within the walls if any persons be therein, and tell us their shape and seeming. The queen was silent for a space, gazing earnestly in the crystal. Then she said, I see a banquet-hole, with walls of dark green jasper speckled with red, and a massy cornice borne up by giants three-headed, carved in black serpentine, and each giant is bowed beneath the weight of a huge crab-fish. The hall is seven-sided. Two long-tables thereby and a cross-bench. There be Iambrasias in the midst of the hall, and flamboyes burning in silver stands, and revelers quaffing at the long-tables. Some dark young men black of brow and great of jaw, most soldier-like, brothers may have. Other with them, ruddy of countenance and kindlier to look on, with long brown mustachios.  She ceased speaking, and just said, Whom thou seeest else in the banquet-hole, o' queen? She said, The flare of the flamboyes hide at the cross-bench. I will turn the crystal again. Now I behold two diverting themselves with dice at the table before the cross-bench. One is well-looking enough, well-knit, of a noble port, with curly brown hair and beard, and keen eyes like a sailor. The other seemeth younger in years, younger than any of you, my lords. He is smooth-sherved, of a fresh complexion and fair-curling hair, and his brow is wreathed with a festal garland, a most big, broad, strong and seemingly young man. Yet is there a somewhat maketh me ill at ease beholding him, but for all his fair countenance and royal bearing he seemeth displeasing in my eyes. There is a damazel there, too, watching them while they play. Showily dressed she is, and hath some beauty. It scarce can I commend her. And, ill at ease, on a sudden, the queen suddenly put down the crystal. The eye of Lord Brandoc the Heart twinkled, but he kept silence. Lord just said, More I entreat thee, o' queen, how the reek be gone, and the vision fade. Let this be all within the banquet-hole. Seeest thou not without? Queen Sophanes were looked again, and in a while said, There is a terrace, facing to the west, under the inner wall of that fortress of old night, and walking on it in the torchlight a man crowned like a king. Very tall he is, lean of body, and long of limb. He weareth a black doublet, bedisoned o'er with diamonds, and his crown is in the figure of a crabfish, and the jewels thereof outfares the sun in splendor. But scarce may I mark his apparel for looking on the face of him, which is more terrible than the face of any man that ever I saw. And the whole aspect of the man is full of darkness, and power, and terror, and stern command, that spirits from below earth must tremble at, and do his bidding. Just said, Heaven forefend that this should prove but a sweet and golden dream, and we work to-morrow to find it flown. They walketh with him, said the queen, in intimate converse, as of a servant talking to his Lord, one with a long black beard, curly as the sheep's wool, and glossy as the raven's wing. Pale he is as the moon in daylight hours, slender, with fine-cut features, and great dark eyes, and his nose hooked like a reaping-hook, gentle-looking and melancholy-looking, yet noble. Lord Brandoc de Haar said, See is there none, or queen, in the lodgings that be in the eastern gallery above the inner court of the palace? The queen answered, I see a lofty bed-chamber hung with aris. It is dark, save for two branching candlesticks of light burning before a great mirror. I see a lady standing before the mirror, crowned with a queen's crown of purple amethysts on her deep hair, that hath the color of the tipmost tongs of a flame. A man comeeth through the door behind her, parting the heavy hangings left and right.  His bald head set about with grizzled curls, and his bushy beard flecked with gray speak him something past his prime. But the light of youth burns in his eager eyes, and the vigor of youth is in his tread. She turneth to greet him, told she is, and young she is, and beautiful, and proud first, and sweet first, and most gallant hearted too, and merry of heart too, if her looks belie her not. Queen Sophonisba covered her eyes, saying, My lords, I see no more. The crystal curdles within like foam in a whirl-pool under a high force in rainy weather. My eyes grow sore with watching. Let us roll back, for the night is far spent and I am weary. But just stared her and said, Let me dream yet a while. The double pillar of the world, that member thereof which we, blind instruments of inscrutable heaven, did shatter, restored again. From this time forth to maintain, I and he, his and mine, ageless and deathless for ever, for ever our high contention, whether he or we, should be great masters of all the earth. If this be but phantoms or queen, those to taste us to the very heart of bitterness, this we could have missed, unseen and unimagined, but not now. Yet how were it possible the gods should relent in the year's return? But the queen spoke, and her voice was like the falling shades of evening, pulsing with hidden splendour, as of a sense of awakening starlight alive behind the fading blue. This king, she said, in the wickedness of his impious pride, did wear on his thumb the likeness of that worm or roboros, as much as to say his kingdom should never end. Yet was he, when the appointed hour did come, thundered down into the depths of hell. And if now he be raised again, and his days continued, it is not for his virtue but for your sake, my lords, whom the almighty gods do love. Therefore I pray you, possess your hearts a while with humility, before the most high gods, and speak no unprofitable words. Let us row back. Dawn came golden-fingered, but the lords of Demonland lay a longer bed after their watch in the night. About the third hour before noon the presence was filled in the high-presence chamber, and the three brethren sat upon their thrones as four years ago they sat, between the golden hippogriffs, and beside them were thrones set for Queen Suffer Nisba and Lord Brandoc de Haar. All else of beauty and splendour in Gael and Castle had the Queen beheld, but not till now this presence chamber, and much she marveled at its matchless beauties and rare-writers, the hangings and the carvings on the walls, the fair pictures, the lamps of Moonstone and Escar Bunkel's self-affulgent. The monsters on the four-and-twenty pillars carved in precious stones so great that two men might scarce circle them with their arms, and the constellations burning in that firmament of Lapis Lazuli below the golden canopy. And when they drank unto Lord Jus the cup of glory to be, wishing him long years and joy and greatness for evermore, the Queen took a little cither and saying, O my Lord, I will sing a sonnet to thee, and to you, my lords, and to see Gert demon land. So saying, she smote the strings, and sang in that crystal voice of hers, so true and delicate, that all that were in that hall were ravished by its beauty. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? How art more lovely and more temperate? Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, and summer's lease hath all too short a date. Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, and often is his gold complexion dimmed, and every fair from fair some time declines, by chance or nature's changing course untrimmed. But thy eternal summer shall not fade, nor lose possession of that fair thou ost. Nor shall death brag thou wondrous in his shed, and in eternal lines to time thou grossed. So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see, so long lives this, and this gives life to thee. When she had done, Lord just rose up very nobly, and kissed her hand, saying, O Queen Sophonisba, fosterling of the gods, shame us not with praises that be too high for mortal men. For well thou knowest what thing alone might bring us content, and is not to be thought that that which was seen at moon-mere-head last night was very truth indeed, and rather the dream of a night vision. But Queen Sophonisba answered and said, My Lord just, blaspheme not the bounty of the blessed gods, lest they be angry and withdraw it, who have granted unto you of demon-land from this day forth, youth everlasting, and unwaning strength, and skill in arms, and— But hark! she said, for a trumpet sounded at the gate, three strident blasts. At the sound of that trumpet-blown, the Lord's goldery and spit-fire sprang from their seats, clapping hand to sword. Lord just stood like a staggered gaze. Lord Brandoc de Haar sat still in his golden chair, scarce changing his pose of easeful grace, but all his frame seemed a light with action near to birth, as the active principle of light pulses and grows in the sky at sunrise.  A serving man, obedient to just his nod, hastened from the chamber. All sound was there in that high-presence chamber in Geling, till in a minute's space the serving man returned with startled countenance, and, bowing before Lord Jus, said, Lord, it is an ambassador from which land and his train. He craved the present audience. End of Chapter 33 End of the Worm or Lobberos


to match human skin tone. Start with a combination that has the feeling of what you want. This one had the intensity, but it was too dark. So I used more of the lightest color to carry her skin tone, which made her more yellow. It needed a bit of pink over top. And then once I put in some of the hair to see how that balanced out the picture, she needed to be desaturated a bit more. I went too far, so I just added some more peach to it. Keep going until you get just the right tone you're looking for. Knowing you're going to keep getting darker. So start on the lighter side. The new Human Rainbow 2 class is going to give you the skills you need.


Hello everyone. My name is Carlos. I'm the founder and CEO of Product School and today I'm here with a very special guest. Her name is Joanna Wolberton. She is the Executive Vice President of Product at Sandisk. Hello. Hello. Before joining the show, can't wait to learn more about your own personal story that brought you to Product, but also know a bit more about how you think about Product and what you think is next for everyone in the industry. Perfect. So let's get things started. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? It feels like an interview, but I just want to dive into the product world. Like, what is an EMP of product and how do we make it happen? Yeah. I think it's one of the most interesting things about this sort of field of product management to me is that there isn't, you know, a well-worn path to this place and my career definitely is a reflection of that. I got my degree from university in political science and Russian studies. And as my mom likes to remind me, I was qualified to do nothing. You should have been a doctor. Why didn't you be a doctor? Anyway, here we are. So I fell into an interesting corner of software product development localization because I had a sort of language affinity. What it gave me the opportunity to do was really get this fascinating view into how software was developed. It never occurred to me and getting in the guts and running builds and understanding UI. And I was like, oh, this is cool and got really lucky because it was the first dot com boom and I lived in the Bay Area and I started helping marketing departments build the first sort of rudimentary websites. And one of those websites sort of morphed itself into a product and they suggested that I might want to be the product manager. And I was like, sure, I was in a place where I was like, sure, yes, sounds great. And as soon as I started doing that job, it was like, oh, this, this is amazing. I really, really like started to super thrive in that job. And then, you know, almost immediately the dot com bust happened. And there were a whole bunch of people who had actually been product managers longer than 18 months who were out on the job market. But I got lucky. And one of the guys who worked on my engineering team when I was a product manager was at Salesforce and called me and asked if I wanted to do localization again, which I definitely did not want to do. But it got me in the door and from there, interestingly, there was a glitch in the case management system. And I used to get product bugs routed to me and I was so terrified that I was going to screw up and do the wrong thing that I just started reproducing them and figuring out how to fix them. And then I would go to developers and ask them to check it in for me. And, and finally, they make sure to please stop harassing our engineers will give you a team. So when you when you got those first jobs, who did product managers report to? I reported to the CMO in my first job. And then as soon as I and then once I got into Salesforce and, you know, the sort of chaos of that early product development explosion that was happening everywhere and into more of a sort of professionalism, there was a head of product and engineering. Interesting. Another thing that I think it's, it's cute for me to kind of question, like you don't come from an engineering background, a traditional computer science. How many non-engineers were there in the product team, you know, back in the day? Yeah, not a lot. But I think, you know, we talked about this before, but I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions about what it takes to be a great product manager is that you have some kind of deep, deep technical expertise. And what I hooked into very early was about wanting to make customers happy. And like, that's the fire in my gut is like, I want to delight customers. I want to give them a thing that they love using.  And I think that's a good inspiration for the next generation of product leaders to know that you don't have to be this standard, you know, whatever someone, your parents call you, you have to study. And then the more people get to leadership positions that don't come from traditional backgrounds, the more they can encourage others to make it happen. So what is it that, you know, how do you supplement that would say the lack of technical skills in order to prove and continue proving that, you know, you can lead products from end to end? Yeah, I mean, I think so much of it is about how you build relationships with the people on your team and then across an organization. I think fundamentally this job for as much as we often, because the output is software, we think of it as a technical job, but it's actually, it's just such a relentless people job. And you don't, you don't get to tell it what to do. All you can do is sort of try to, you know, tell a really good story and try to get everyone to come with you. And, you know, that took me a while, I think, to realize that I was my early, I was like, in all the bugs and I was trying to understand what was happening. You know, I learned more and more over the years. I learned more and more about how to talk to developers when I knew they were like being straight with me and when, you know, maybe not so much and sort of how to have those conversations and talk about outcomes. And then, and then I think it's, it wins on the board, right? Say you're going to do a thing, do the thing, tell everyone you did the thing. And sooner rather than later, people start giving you more things to do. Definitely. And now we see that product is not part of marketing or part of technology. It's, it's on function and you as an entity of product, you lead that agenda. So can you give us an idea of like, you know, how does product work at Zendesk? Well, it's a really interesting set up at Zendesk through acquisition and sort of some organic growth. We have product development teams in 11 countries, 12. There we are in Canada. So from Krakow to Singapore, we are doing product development almost 24 hours a day. And, you know, trying to figure out how we coordinate across all of the time zones, how we collaborate across all of the time zones has been one of the most interesting parts of my now two year journey so far at Zendesk. And what's interesting is that it sort of necessitates a balance between some strong top down directives and then a lot of trust in the bottoms up that's happening in the regions, right? I'm not sitting next to the product team in Singapore and sort of understanding their day to day. And I have to give them a strong sense of where we're going from a North Star point of view from a big picture high level. These are the most important things for the next half for the next year for the next 18 months and then trust that that when they have to make decisions day to day without me or even one of my directs in their time zone that they're they had the information they need to do it. That's so fascinating to me because when I we still use Zendesk but when I first used the product so many years ago, it was pretty much a head that head desk now it's scaled to an entire platform to cover so many different use cases and then you mentioned that you part of that was through acquisitions. So when you when you acquire as mother organization that brings their own culture and ways of working together now you have this huge org that has to play the same the same music. How did you go about building a culture that stays? Yeah, it's it's hard work. It takes a lot of intention, right? I think I arrived and all of these different people and all of these are in places were working on very specific things and there was very, very little thought to how they would all come together in a single experience. They were sold separately. They were used separately and it became clear. That for a really great agent experience when you want to be helping your customers going to four or five different products and trying to figure out yourself how to string them together was inefficient. So we had to get the whole organization thinking about how what they're doing contributes to a whole and I kind of thought if I just started saying it over and over again that was sufficient and it turns out it takes a lot a lot more effort and it took you know a lot of setting some centralized big vision big bet stuff. It took some really strong program management staff to help us sort of connect dots and then it took me sort of every time I saw it making sure you know I was celebrating those kinds of wins and really getting you know showing everyone sort of how that can work. We've had this year has been terrible. Let's make no mistake for everyone but it's been an interesting leveling of the playing fields and the amount of cross team collaboration that has happened has has really pleasantly surprised me. I'm incredibly proud of my team. How does your day today look like? I'm very curious because you know in startup worlds everyone is a VP of product but when you are that size of a company being an EVP it's a whole different game especially with the complexity that you just mentioned with different time sounds different products. So let's say you wake up in the morning or like you know what is your plan for the week? How do you make sure that you know nothing fall or the most important things don't fall through the crack? Well, I have a fantastic staff of people who help. Shawna remember, hey Shawna remember this thing but in all see my days is almost 100% meetings and it's about 50% meetings kind of inside of my product organization and then the rest is sort of taking product out into the world making sure we're aligned with the leadership and product marketing making sure we're aligned with our go-to-market partners in sales with success having you know deep conversations with with customers I'm involved in quite a few executive sponsored relationships and then also I'm often called in if there's some kind of escalation. We have you know sort of the regular cadence of the executive staff meetings then there's some you know meetings to get worked on sometimes but it's a lot a lot of meetings. I have a really strongly that time spent with people on my team is is great. So I have one-on-ones with my team. I have one-on-ones with their directs on a regular basis and I have quite a few sort of double down kind of two layers three layers down one-on-ones on a regular basis especially when you know we're not seeing each other in the hallway. I want to make sure everyone on my team feels like they have what they need to get their job done and and are having a good time. I'm very curious because we get a lot of people that are either fighting to break into product or they're already working on product and they start asking about the career path. We talk a lot about how to break into product but then what like nobody told us what the options really are and and I can totally see a people manager path as you describe which is literally spending a lot of time with others in meetings but what about people who just love building getting their hands dirty and being kind of in the front line with engineers and designers. How can they grow? Yeah, I mean I think the the first thing is to join a company that has a culture of strong individual contributor pms and and understand you know is there a parallel career ladder that they've written down. This is really important to me. I was an accidental manager. I was you know I was in charge of three scrum teams. I was having a great time and I had a boss who pulled me into a conference room and said okay these two guys they report to you now go and that was my management training and I luckily found out that I loved it. I absolutely got such a thrill out of the success of those two guys that it was I felt better about what they did than anything I had ever done. So I love management. I know that not everyone should be a management manager. I know that being a manager and a product leader is an entirely different job than being a product manager. So if you love product managing don't don't follow in my footsteps. I don't get to product management anymore. It's really sad. I miss it. I keep threatening to get a whiteboard behind me and I'll like a whiteboard and then I know it's okay. It's funny because from the outside being a product manager that's a matter of title like we're getting close to sound so cool and everyone is like oh my god I want to do it because I think the misconception sometimes is that you are in this room calling the shows having these big ideas but it's so the opposite. You know and there are so many people cranking like oh my god we're going to get myself into. Yeah I like to say that this is ostensibly like if you did an objective inventory it's one of the worst jobs ever right. I mean I think if if everything goes perfectly and you have an amazing launch and customers love the thing you did you're up on stage thanking the multitudes your engineers and your program team and your marketing team and you're going to mark and the whole world gets thanked and if it absolutely flops you're up on that stage all alone and all you can do sits entirely my fault. I'm sorry I think I think I figured out what happened and I will make sure we don't have that happen again so it is I tell people like you have to find the fire in your gut about why you want to sort of walk through this particular fire you know the joke I have with a lot of my peers is that if there was something else we were good at we probably would have done it but like we can't imagine ourselves doing anything else. I completely agree with you I think there is something inside about just just learning and pushing and trying and you know the breaking things a little bit but not too much but at the same time I think recognizing that when things go well it's not about you and when things don't go so well you definitely have to take responsibility in a way it is very similar to what the CEO or other executives need to do. Yeah absolutely and I think you know in this role I when I'm being generous I like to say that I'm the product manager of the product management organization so sort of understanding what I want the outcomes to be and how do we get there from where we are what are the processes the org structure all of those kinds of things and I think as a CEO you're sort of that for the company. And how do you so I'm very also very curious about learning in general like you mentioned how you accidentally broke into product someone gave you the title then you accidentally became a manager and but you've been growing and leading large teams so how can someone like really learn on the go or not on the go but make sure that you can acquire the necessary skills to continue being at that level and not become a bottleneck for everybody. Yeah I mean I'm very much an experiential learner but the few places the places I really invested from an educational point of view were not so much in the mechanics because I think sort of the mechanics are vaguely the same but different enough everywhere that usually someone you get to a place and you learn their way of doing it and you go. I think one of the most important skills that so often overlooked for product managers is communication written communication the ability to build a great presentation and tell your story and to do that in a way where you have confidence and you can absolutely be ready for whatever sort of comes at you. I think you know what I've seen over and over again in organizations is that pms. Maybe who don't even deliver as like there might be some there's two pms one is heads down delivering great features over and over and over again and one is like fine you know they're sort of they'll be in delivery but they are amazing at telling their story in front of an audience and this person wins so I think it's important to I love the when they're both best but I think you know the business sort of will always reward and gravitate the people who can talk about the work that they're doing and frame it in terms of how it impacts the business. I agree with you I we have two types of students for the most part one are engineers who don't want to code anymore and they're one of the business folks who want to be closer to the action. Yeah, I don't know how to code they don't have zero intention in learning so but I've seen so many amazing engineers who are much better than what they can imagine and they just need to kind of treat themselves as a product and put themselves out there and just need to push them like come on you know what you're talking about like you are amazing that it's just hard for someone to to find out unless you tell them and I've seen the opposite as well. Yeah, and it's a muscle right. I mean I remember like it was yesterday my first sprint review and the executive staff were sitting in the audience and I knew that if I misspoke or said something that was disagreeable I was it was going to hurt and and you know I was nauseous my mouth got dry and you know it was just with repetition and then you know every time there was an opportunity to get up and talk for as terrified as I was or as uncertain as I was about my ability to do that just saying yes and doing it over and over and over. I did my first year when I started doing executive briefings I did 53 of them in a year and by the like the first one I was sitting at my desk sweating trying to put slides together like I was just going to go and by the last one I think I was like two seconds before the EBC I was in the lobby like oh yeah you're walking in like we got this let's go so it really is just doing it. Definitely like I agree more I know that traditionally obviously in product is a lot of times we have to say no just to prioritize and and I totally get and respect that part but I think it's another part of just putting yourself in an uncomfortable position. There's no replacement for that no and and there's a tremendous amount I mean I think we were all it's drilled into us to say no and to to to we have to say no if everything's important nothing's important but there's a tremendous power in saying yes and being able I mean we know so much and we are connected so well in organizations and I think there's a tremendous amount of benefit to us and to our companies when we take the time to you know give other people access to that network that we've created sort of just in the course of doing our jobs. Right so let's talk about diversity and in general how you go about building teams we know that it's not just about it you need us anymore we know that the diverse teams that built for everyone usually win but you specifically you have any any playbook or way of building your own team. Yeah I mean I think you know it's it's really important to have an alignment with your recruiting organization and to be really clear with your recruiting organization about you know the kinds of slates that you want in your candidates. I think one of my favorite things to do is to take people who have not been pms before and bring them into junior roles. I think there is a tremendous amount of talent out there that maybe doesn't even know that they would be great at this and I always have my eye out engineering managers have become very suspect of me when I ask about their engineers like how's that how are they doing and you think they might be getting bored of doing that coding thing over there because I think you know when you've been doing this as long as I have you sort of get a sense so I think it's about intention. I think it's about it's a virtuous circle right when you have women who are in your leadership of the company in leadership in product and engineering you just it's like a magnet more women show up to apply more women stick around more women grow and then I think you know we have to start thinking beyond right if there is tremendous talent in across race and culture and you know again working with your recruiting teams building up partnerships we have a fantastic partnership. I just did speed mentoring with a whole core from black girls code. There is so much young talent out there and you just we just have to expose ourselves to it. There is no pipeline problem. There's just a hiring problem. I agree. I always tell you a lot of our students do to ask internally first of all because there are a lot of companies that really want to give the opportunity to someone even if they don't have the official title. Yep. And also I think in terms of diversity it's such a for me I think it starts from the roots. I just don't believe in a situation of like oh my god we have too many whatever we just need to suddenly start hiding a different type of profile. I think it starts from like really building that culture and showing that this is not just for show this is because it's better for the company. This is better for your clients and ultimately better for the world. Yeah. And I think if you make your organization a great place to work for everyone you are going to get a whole bunch of different people that might not have come to be in with right. I mean I think cultures that are relentless and like crazy mean or yelling right.  Like I can't take time off in the afternoon. I've got a culture where everyone has to be online all the time. You know you've got a whole bunch of people who maybe are taking care of parents or and so I think there's a like a rising the tide for all of the boats that comes when you really think about the people who work for you as people and instead of his resources and and create that kind of culture in your organization. It's like I said it's in it attracts all kinds of great people. So you are leading a portfolio of products. How do you go about really building what's next because it's not just one single roadmap. I can imagine you have like so many different things going on at the same time. So getting content is not the same as we used to be five people in the same room like hey what do you think cool. Let's do it. Yeah. We recently created a new process and it kicks off actually this afternoon. It's my one of my meetings this afternoon. We do a sort of high level team by team roadmap refresh where we look out three quarters and you know next quarter we got a pretty good idea that these are definitely the things we're going to deliver the second one. You're like yeah pretty much that third one's like who knows what will happen by then and we every quarter do an update. So rather than sort of starting the year and saying this is what we're going to do for the year and then despite whatever happens we just keep marching really trying to get more agile and then I do that review with everyone all around the world will be done with those by the end of next week and then every month and I don't know how like it's not particularly scalable but I love it too much to stop. We do a scrum team by scrum team sprint review where not it's not really a sprint but it's the spirit of it like this is what we were going to do on that big plan for this month. Here's what we thought we were going to do. Here's what we got done and here's a demo and it keeps me connected to all the teams. It allows a whole bunch of you know me and my staff to understand what's happening. Not just you know in their own orgs but across and and spot stuff that might be getting weird and it really helps us sort of keep a pulse check on all the stuff that's going on.  Yeah I mean like I think I talked about earlier right I mean as especially as you come up and and overseeing more and more you have all of this great sort of you know fiber that you've laid all over the organization and and when you're constantly sort of going in and looking at all of these things like the connections it's hard for someone down in the bottom of the organization to understand especially you know they're in Singapore someone's in Krakow but when you see both of those things and go oh my gosh you guys are building something really similar maybe you should talk and you could build a service and and we could have one of these instead of two it's it's one of the fun parts of my role and like I said you know when we're twice this high as it's hard to imagine I'll still be doing monthly subscription reviews but I hope I can manage yes my last question for you is how are you thinking about the future what do you think are the biggest opportunities for for people who are involved in building digital products. I mean there's we're in an amazing time of you know growth and there are so many companies growing so fast who need product people to come and help them you know CEO founders can only run product for so long before weird stuff starts happening and I think you know every everything from startups to megacorps are looking for people who can come in and and sort of figure out how things work there and get to building so I'm super excited about the role and the future of who's becoming product managers. I think you know this idea really does seem to be taking root that that it's not a job that has you know entrance requirements or you know I think we're well past this. I have to be an MBA to be a product manager and and sort of opening of gates for all kinds of people to come into this role. I am very bullish on the future product management and product managers. Me too well thank you for your time it's been a pleasure of course likewise.


So there's been a lot of talk lately about who Linux is for like who should use Linux? And a lot of the stuff is spawned by the Linus Tech Tips Linux gaming challenge and how much of a problem Linus has had using Linux, but this is not a new question like Who is Linux perfect for it's something that people have been asking for pretty much the whole time there's been Linux and there's no actual answer because Really Linux is for everyone Linux can be for anybody who wants to put the effort into learning it the thing is is that recently there's been a lot of talk about Linux only being for developers and This is such a wrong-headed idea That I don't even really know where to start is Linux good for developers the answer to that question is yes Obviously Linux is good for developers. Is it better for developers than Windows? I don't know. I'm not a developer I can't answer that question a lot of developers seem to think so so they use Linux and I'm happy for them I'm glad that they had that opportunity But I don't think that we can go so far as to say that Linux is only for developers We can't also say that Linux is for new users either because it's not really meant for Super new non-technical users. It's just not Linux is not that operating system. It's not that easy to use Especially for the type of users that would come and not be willing to put in the effort to learn it because as I've said before Linux is not Windows and therefore you can't treat it like Windows or Mac OS for that matter So is Linux only for developers if it's not for Very new non-technical users, then it has to just be for developers, right? No, I don't think so at all I think Linux is for people who are interested in putting an effort into it because the one thing that we Universally agree on or at least I think we universally agree on in the Linux community is that Linux takes some effort to learn Like you can't just come into it and know Everything about it and know how everything works because some things work different than what normal people are used to So you have to put some effort into learning it You also have to have some level of responsibility for your own system It's not something that you have to do on Windows when something goes wrong on Windows You call somebody to fix it or you're technical enough to fix it yourself But mostly you call someone to fix it or you nuke and pave I mean, I know when I was just a little lad fixing Windows usually entailed just Reinstalling Windows and I know that is the case still for a lot of people so on Linux you have a responsibility to Learn how to maintain your system. It's not something that really exists on Windows And I think that that does create a barrier of entry for who is Eligible, I don't want to say eligible to use like because anybody can use Linux But I think it does create a barrier of entry for the perfect Linux user the perfect new Linux user because If you just if you switch to Linux and you're not interested in putting that effort into and this is something that I've talked about many times before If you're not willing to learn and willing to have an open mind of about how things work You're never going to succeed. So that level that Barrier entry has kind of ruled out a Large portion of the computing market because the vast majority of people when they want to use a computer They just want to turn it on and use Google Chrome and and navigate through Google photos or whatever That's all they want to do They don't want to have to think about actually maintaining their You know their computer in any way they don't want to have to learn a new way of doing anything whether it's you know interacting with a file manager or Learning how to install software or do updates They don't want to learn how to do any of that stuff because chances are They didn't learn how to do any of that stuff on Windows either like they the vast majority of people Probably don't know how to update their Windows machine That's the reason why Windows is so forceful in doing updates for their users because the vast majority of them will never do it themselves On Linux nobody's gonna force you to do anything You're gonna have to learn to do that yourself and if you're not willing to do that Linux isn't for you But Linux isn't just for developers. That's a fallacy if Linux was just for developers The gaming market for Linux would be really really small like there'd be no reason for steam proton to exist because there's just Not that many developers out there that would be interesting and also all the games that are on steam I mean there obviously there's quite a bit of crossover there because a lot of developers are gamers But you can't tell me that the level of interest in Linux gaming is simply because the developer community likes games There has to be more than just You just those people, you know So I think that the the Linux community actually encompasses a lot of people that aren't developers people who are Into content creation of all all sorts of types whether it's music whether it's video whether it's writing You know a lot of that kind of stuff Whether it's gaming there are a lot of people who use Linux because it games it can game now Obviously those aren't the normal people Most normal gamers use windows But there are those people so I don't think you can argue that Linux is just for developers It's just not something that you can argue because I don't think it's true I haven't seen any evidence that the only people that are Surrounding me in my Linux community are developers In fact, I'd say most of you who are watching this probably aren't developers and you probably use Linux now Whether or not you use Linux as your daily driver or you use in some kind of dual-loop mechanism I don't know I would say that there's a good portion of you out there who still use windows on a daily basis and Because of work or whatever and you use Linux on your home computer or whatever I Think that that encouples encompasses a lot of people who are just Enthusiasts and not necessarily people who sit in front of a Haskell machine all the day and trying to do some Haskell So that is really kind of a rambly video I know but I just wanted to cover that topic because it's been brought up quite a few times in last week or so a Lot of Linux youtubers are talking about this now because we've seen The outcome of a of a new Linux user switching to Linux who seems to be unwilling to learn a different way of doing things We've seen that outcome now a lot of people are also calling a lot of us Linux youtubers elitists and I don't think a Linux elitism is a thing, right? It is there like there are a sizeable portion of the Linux community that doesn't want new users at all or they want the barrier to entry to be so large That it only a trickle of people will come ever come in Those people do exist but the most of us here aren't interested in Shutting people out the most of us are interested in bringing people in but We're interesting in doing so in a way that is going to ensure that when they start using Linux They have a good experience and you're never going to have a good experience if you come into Linux unwilling to Take at least some steps to learn it because Linux is a different thing than what you're used to It does things differently It doesn't mean that you can't do things on Linux It doesn't mean that the only thing you can ever do is for developers That's just utter nonsense, but it does mean that you do have to put some effort into it And it that's the reason why a lot of us are cautious about who should use Linux Because not everyone is willing to put in that effort So that is it for this video if you have thoughts or comments You can leave those in the comment section below make sure you hit the subscribe button and like button I really do appreciate everybody who has already done so you can follow me on Twitter at the Linux cast You can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash Linux cast before I go. I'd like to take a moment to thank my current patrons Devon Chris east coast web gen 2 is fun, too Patrick all primus today Marcus Maiglin Jackson of tool Steve a Mitchell art center amitaus Merrick camp Joshua Lee J Dogs the VSTs rock Peter a crucible. Thanks everybody for watching. I'll see you next time