The final item of business this evening is a member's business debate on motion 6 to 9, in the name of Pam Goswell, on recognising the international date for the elimination of violence against women. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I invite members wishing to participate to press the request to speak buttons now or as soon as possible. Pam Goswell has opened the debate for around seven minutes. It is an honour to bring forward today's debate to mark the international day for the elimination of violence against women and girls, which will take place this Friday on November 25, which is followed by the 16 days of activism. This year's theme is unite activism to end violence against women and girls. Thanks to our dedicated police force and our endlessly dedicated third sector organisations, women in Scotland have a voice. The drive to make the world a safer place for women and girls gains more momentum every year and this year is no different. As always, there remains a hard battle to be won, whether that's against anti-feminist movements, human traffickers or lone abusers. But women will not back down. Just look at the bravery and resilience of the Iranian women who are protesting following the suspicious death of Masa Amini. They are fighting for their freedom and today we all stand in solidarity with them. The UK is a leader in women's rights and we cannot afford to go backwards and we cannot grow complacent. Is the member aware of comments reported today from a leading United Nations official who warns that the SNP's gender self-id law risks endangering women and calls for it to be put on hold? I thank the member for her intervention as this is a very serious point. It is deeply concerning that the United Nations experts on violence against women has expressed her concerns over legislation passing through this chamber right now. After months, if not years, of the SNP telling women that their concerns over the GRR Bill were imaginary, the United Nations has confirmed that it could, and I quote, potentially open the door for violent males to abuse the process of acquiring a gender certificate and that it does present risks to the safety of women. I would like to take this opportunity in this debate about eliminating violence against women to urge the SNP if they won't listen to the concerns of women, campaigners and even their own members to listen to the United Nations experts and not bring in any law which might harm the rights of safety of women. As I say, we cannot afford to go backwards. The recorded crime in Scotland statistics for 2021 to 2022 provide a bleak snapshot of the dangers facing women and girls in Scotland. For example, sexual crimes by 15 per cent have soared on the year before, which is the equivalent of 96 per cent rise since 2012.  I acknowledge the efforts that have been made to develop policy to tackle violence against women and girls. However, this is quite clearly not going far enough. Women shouldn't have to walk home with their keys rammed between their knuckles in case they come across in the silent, but we do. Women shouldn't have to walk the long way home to avoid quiet areas and blind spots, but we do. Women shouldn't have to watch for shadows cast on paths as they walk home, but we do. Until we don't, we cannot stop looking for new ways to tackle violence against women and girls, which brings me on to my next area of focus. That often takes place a lot closer to home domestic abuse. Last year, domestic abuse statistics were shocking. In 2020-21, more than 65,000 incidents of domestic abuse were recorded by Police Scotland. Even more tragic is that half of those were committed by re-offenders. Throughout the year, I have engaged with countless domestic abuse organisations and individuals. One of whom said to me that they cannot understand how an abuser is able to ruin so many lives and get off so lightly for their crimes. That is exactly why I brought forward my proposals for the Domestic Abuse Prevention Scotland Bill. If one thing is clear, it is that. Our register must be created to stop perpetrators moving from area to area and from victim to victim. We need to do more to ensure that rehabilitation is no longer a postcode lottery. We must improve the data that we collect on domestic abuse to understand the support and services that are required in different communities, because one size does not fit all. That is particularly the case for lame and disabled individuals. Finally, education. Children at a young age must be taught that domestic abuse is wrong. They need to know what an unhealthy relationship looks like and to be aware of the support services available to them. I would like to take this opportunity to thank every organisation, every individual who has taken their time to complete my consultation, which is closed now. As I have outlined today, there is a clear-cut case for doing more. I hope that you all will give my proposed bill due consideration. In conclusion, I would like to end my contribution. First, by recognising the endless activism of the third sector who are there to fight the corner of victims. Secondly, by uniting together in the knowledge that our efforts will make a difference to the lives of women and girls around the world.  We cannot give up. We must eradicate violence against women and girls. Thank you, Ms Gozel. It will not surprise the chamber to learn that there is an awful lot of interest in this evening's debate. I would be grateful, therefore, if members could stick broadly to their time allocations with that. We move to the open debate. I call, firstly, Michelle Thomson to be followed by Pauline McNeill for around four minutes, Ms Thomson. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am grateful to Pam Gozel for this debate in recognising the importance of the international day for the elimination of violence against women. Even though I have had my own challenging experiences in the past, I am very sensitive to the fact that many women across the world face much more deadly threats and repression than anyone in our country of Scotland will have experienced. I therefore want to dedicate my speech to the courageous women and girls of Iran. They display a quite remarkable heroism standing against repression and brutality. Their cause is admirably summed up in their cry, Zan Zendegi Azadi, women, life, freedom. Throughout history, Iranian women have participated in national protests. Today, they are leading the way confronting the Iranian regime's abusive and regressive treatment of women and girls. Regrettably, the Iranian Government is responding with lethal force. The brutal killing of 22-year-old Maz Amini by Iran's so-called morality police has sparked nationwide protests. In violent crackdowns, the regime is trying to crush calls for the human rights of women to be recognised. Already over 100 civilians, including at least 23 children, have been killed with impunity since 19 September 2022. It seems unimaginable that scores of women and children are being brutally murdered by cowardly men to protect the immorality of a brutal regime. It is not only the evil of the killings that concern me, though. Countless numbers are being thrown into prison to face torture. A Sonya Angelica Dian has recently written, and I quote, In Iran, men and women are equal only in torture. Torture is a standard method of the regime in terms of direct physical torture. It includes whippings, being hung by the hands for lengthy periods, or being forced to sit for many hours with hands tied together behind the back. As part of systematic psychological torture, techniques include total isolation for weeks or even months, enforcing deprivation, threats of sexual violence and the threats of violence towards our family. Those acts are happening as we speak. The UN special reporter on violence against women, Professor Rashida Mangu, revealed in his report of October 2013 that torture in Iranian prisons included men raping virgins prior to execution. That women and young girls are therefore brave enough in such a society to throw off their headscarfs and confront the violence of state police are extraordinary acts of bravery. Courage is indeed calling to courage in Iran. We need as many international voices as possible to put pressure on the Iranian regime to end all torture. I join my voice with that palm gozel. I hope that the members participating in this debate feel able to add their own voices. In this international day for the elimination of violence against women, let us all join the Iranian rallying cry for women, for life, for freedom. Zan, Zendegi, Azadi, indeed. Pauline McNeill, to be followed by Russell Finlay, again around four minutes. Thank you to Pam Gosel for nominating this important debate for her members' business this evening. I must apologise to Pam and to other speakers that I didn't realise we'd gone so late tonight, so unfortunately I can't remain for the whole debate, but I really wanted to speak in it. On 25 November, we observed the international day for the elimination of violence against women. On this day, we are reminded of all the women and girls who are victims of male violence, and we are reminded of the need to eradicate all forms of violence against women and girls as a matter of urgency. On Friday, we will launch our consultation on changing the future of women and girls, simply because we want to be part of the conversation about how we can change this for all time. I, too, applaud the bravery of Iranian women marching in the streets, but I would add that many other women in other countries have also been brave. In Saudi Arabia, for example, and in Afghanistan, in those regimes speaking out, in many other countries across the world where girls are not given an education, where they are treated appallingly, is an extension of widespread global discrimination against women and girls. Gender-based violence is one of the most systematic, socially-tolerated human rights violations of our time, and global estimates published by the World Health Organization in 2021 indicate that one in three women worldwide will experience physical or sexual violence in their lifetime. At least one in five women in Scotland will experience domestic abuse, too. An average of six rapes are reported every day, and, shockingly, I'm sure we've debated this before, the figures lowest 7 per cent of reported rapes and attempted rapes make it to court in Scotland in 2021. Figures released by the Scottish Government yesterday revealed that reported sexual crimes were 6 per cent higher on the year ending this September. What you see here, worryingly, is that the trend, unfortunately, is rising. The question that we must answer is how we are going to tackle the root cause of this. The root cause of this will be the same in Scotland as it is in the rest of the world. I know that the ministers share this view, but it's a question that we need to continue to return to. The epidemic of misogyny and inequality across our society. Research has shown that socially-constructed gender norms that socialise boys and men tend to value hierarchy, aggression, power, respect and emotional suppression may be the primary root cause of violence against women. In those debates, you always find that you're literally on your last minute and you feel you haven't really said anything at all. I really have to just save in conclusion on this debate. For me, the most important thing, I could go through more statistics, which are shocking. The most important thing is that this Parliament must continue to do the work in identifying the root causes. We know that boys of a certain age who we've seen this time and time again are mimicking the behaviour of other males. In a sense, we've got to break that cycle. We've got to break the cycle of young girls who arguably are more harassed now than they were in my generation. Figures show that they're harassed going to school, and the advent of social media means that many of them are under pressure to give nude photographs of themselves as part of a normalised way of growing up. That should not be normal. That is not acceptable behaviour in schools, and I conclude by saying that. I know that Christine McElvie, Angela Robison, will say tonight about their work of equally safe. I think that I really do support the programme. I'd like to see extended in every school. If I can make one request, I'd like to see this in action if I may. We must work together to eradicate violence against women and girls. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms McElvie. I now call Russell Finlay to be followed by Beatrice Wishart for around four minutes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Let me also begin by thanking my colleague Pam Goswell for bringing forward this important debate. I also absolutely associate myself and my party with the comments from Michelle Thompson about the heroism and tragedy taking place in Iran. Indeed, as Pauline McNeill says, the bravery of women fighting similar battles in so many other countries around the world. Pam's campaigning work on domestic abuse and violence is a shining example of the good that this Parliament can do. Her bill to create a domestic abuse register should be commended and supported by MSPs across the chamber. It's a strong, well-intentioned and well-considered proposal. It would introduce a system along the same lines as the sex offender's register. Those who commit violence within the home would be added to the database by a sheriff. Police officers would then have access to this information about those who pose such a risk. Police Scotland already operates such a scheme. It's called the Disclosure Scheme for Domestic Abuse Scotland. That gives people the right to ask about the background of their partner. Pam's register, which is still being shaped, may go even further. I strongly believe that transparency should be central to our justice system. Secrecy and closed doors are a feature of so many of the scandals we've seen in which victims have been let down.  Pam has already highlighted the scandal at one in three women. Mr Finlay, I know that it's a member's debate and it's slightly more informal, but if I could encourage you to use full names rather than discussions, thank you. Apologies. I didn't realise that was the form. Pam Goswell has already highlighted the scandal that one in three women suffer from violence, but it's a global problem. As my colleague said, let's not lose sight of the fact that Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom are at the forefront of women's rights. This is true today as it has been historically. However, it is a problem that we can do more to tackle. Women in Scotland still face discrimination and misogyny, abuse and violence every day.  Just this afternoon I met the chief constable of British Transport Police who told me that an estimated 75 per cent of sexual offences on our railways pass unreported. Many women share a belief that Scotland's justice system does not always live up the values that it likes to a spouse and I agree. Right now our justice system remains stacked against victims. The Parliament could act more decisively to tackle violence against women. We could increase sentences for violent and sexual crimes. We could make sure those who commit unspeakable acts serve their full sentences. We could end automatic early release. We could increase pitifully low rates of conviction for sex assaults and rapes. We could make the justice system more understanding and compassionate. We could stop sex offenders changing their names and indeed their gender. We could ensure courts deliver justice much more quickly. We could stop men from exploiting the courts to prolong their abuse and we could pass Pam Goswell's domestic abuse register bill. If anyone in this Parliament of any party wants to progress any of these policies to end violence against women, this bill is a good place to start. In closing, I hope that we will step up and use our powers to end violence against women. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Finlay. I call Beatrice Wishart to be followed by Carol Mocken again around four minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to speak today to recognise the international day for the elimination of violence against women. Thank you to Pam Goswell for bringing this important debate to the chamber. Gender-based violence refers to harmful acts directed at an individual or individuals based on their gender. It is rooted in gender inequality, abusive power and harmful norms. Violence against women is any act of gender-based violence that results in or is likely to result in physical, sexual or mental harm or suffering to women and girls. Those definitions demonstrate that violence against women occurs both privately within families and communities and publicly perpetrated or condoned by the state. Since the pandemic began, 45 per cent of women report that they or a woman they know has experienced a form of violence. Lockdowns, increased isolation and economic uncertainty exposed women and girls to increased rates of domestic violence and child marriage. Violence against women remains one of the most pervasive human rights violations across the globe. Impunity, stigma and shame result in underreporting and failures to address problems. Here in Scotland, the death of Adrian McCartney, as reported in the Sunday Post last week, shows the horrific consequences of structural failings to address violence against women. It is heartbreaking to read the litany of failures from public authorities who are supposed to protect her. I am sure that members here tonight would join me in extending deepest sympathy to Adrian's family and friends. Action is needed. We need recognition that women suffer directly and indirectly from male violence and biased patriarchal systems. I turn now to highlight the situation faced by women and girls in Afghanistan now over a year since the Taliban returned to power. Women and girls in Afghanistan are being systemically excluded from public life. Human rights violations against women and girls are increasing. Girls are no longer allowed to school past sixth grade. Women barred from most jobs and effectively eliminated from political participation. Women facing increased restrictions on their movements and bodies. Removing education from girls violates their right to education and creates lifelong adverse consequences. Maniza, a teacher, said to UN Women, I asked the international community to listen to Afghan women. I say, we are hearing you, Maniza. From a councillor who helps women heal from trauma and enrol in literacy and vocational training to a human rights defender who has stayed in Afghanistan to help women, Afghan women continue to unite, forming new civil society groups, reopening businesses, all under constant threat of violence. I turn now to Iran where a woman led protest movement demanding political freedom is persisting, as Michelle Thompson highlighted. In addition to laws on women's clothing, the government ratified a law which criminalises abortion and restricts family planning. Catalyzed by the death and custody of Masa Emini, women-led protesters are pushing back against increasing government control over women's lives. When we spoke in this chamber for International Women's Day in March, our thoughts were of the women of Ukraine. Nine months on, impacts of war continue to disproportionately affect women and girls. A UN report highlights school age girls are at a higher risk of being forced out of school and into marriage.  Presiding Officer, across the world, civil society organisations, women's networks and human rights defenders are working tirelessly to combat violence against women. Efforts to end violence against women must be inclusive and intersectional, paying attention to the multiple discriminations by many women, including women with disabilities and LGBT-plus women. Together, let's unite in activism to end violence against women and girls. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much, Ms Wishart. I now call Carol Mawchen to be followed by Maggie Chapman again around four minutes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I start by thanking Pam Gozzle for bringing this debate to the chamber tonight. One of my first speeches last year was, in fact, the debate on eliminating violence against women. In that speech, I remember reflecting on the fact that, while working across the globe on this issue is to be commended and essential, it must make us in this chamber think. We have a responsibility. We, the elected members in this Parliament, we have a responsibility to work hard, to make decisions, to make action happen, to ensure that we don't have the same remarks to make in years to come. I am here speaking again to ensure that we in the Scottish Parliament do all that we can to raise awareness, change and implement suitable laws and amplify the voices of women and girls. The theme this year is Unite, coming together to end gender-based violence. I again thank Pam Gozzle for allowing us here in this chamber to do just that. Deputy Presiding Officer, as the motion says, violence against women and girls continues to be one of the most pervasive human rights violations worldwide. The statistics of damming affects more than an estimated one in three women, and that is estimated that an average of a woman or girl is killed by someone in their own family every 11 minutes across the globe, every 11 minutes across the globe. Since the outbreak of Covid-19, emerging data and reports from those on the front line have shown that all types of violence against women and girls, particularly domestic violence, as we have heard, has intensified. Each woman who is a victim of violence must be treated equally and fairly by an establishment that understands or at least seeks to begin to understand why they have gone through this. We need a global collective effort to stop it and we need to understand that everyone has a role to play. That begins with accepting that this is a serious problem across the globe and we do not have that under control. It means more honesty from governments, it means direct engagement with grassroots organisations, health and recovery charities and global institutions. It means prevention strategies focused on early education, respectful relationships and working with men and boys, especially through and in the media, in the sports industry, in the world of work and, as my colleague Pauline mentioned, becoming much more to the front as the social media aspect. We must tackle this here in Scotland and right across the globe. Parliamentary means must push to ensure women's representation at all levels in politics, in economic development, in governance and in planning. The list is endless, but until women and girls have full and equal representation, until that is addressed, it is unlikely that we will change those dreadful statistics. Deputy Presiding Officer, there is so much to be done, but I will close by thanking my colleagues here today who have raised really important issues about violence against women and girls from right across the globe. I know that we can unite in this Parliament to end this outrageous blight on global society and make sure we tackle violence against women and girls. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed, Ms Mocken. I now call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Marie McNair again around four minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Pam Goswell for securing this debate and to have the opportunity to speak on this topic two days before the international day for the elimination of violence against women and the 16 days of activism. I'd like also to thank all those organisations and agencies who work day in and day out to support survivors. I refer colleagues to my register of interests. The existence of this official day is perhaps the sign of progress that the reality of violence against women and girls is being recognised by institutions and decision makers. But how much of a picture are we really seeing? What image arises when we think of gender-based violence? Is the woman cis and straight with all her papers in order dressed and behaving appropriately? And her attacker? Is he a stranger to her? A man without authority, not in uniform visibly unreliable, criminal, monstrous? We know that not all violence against women follows this pattern and yet the more it deviates from this image, the less sure we are of how wrong it is. The UN webpage for the day recognises this, identifying those women particularly likely to be attacked. Not the meekly respectable but the outsiders including and I quote women who identify as lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex, migrants and refugees. It is no coincidence that these identities are those who suffer societal prejudice and depression. For the problem of violence against women is not one of isolated incidents perpetrated by individual men of intrinsic evil. They are symptoms of a deeper disease. A disease not just of misogyny but of homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia and a visceral fear of difference and of sharing privilege and status. Worse than that, those incidents are in reality a harvest the expected outcome of the seeds that are planted, watered and fed, not only by men not only by tabloid presses but not only by populist demagogues not only in countries we think of as regressive or oppressive. The UN also recognises that violence against women is not only perpetrated by strangers. We know that it comes from intimate partners, from families and from lawfully constituted authorities and those women who are more likely to experience violence generally including transwomen are also more likely to be survivors or tragically not survivors of these embedded, disguised and often hidden attacks. Transwomen are as likely as ciswomen to be attacked in any context because they are women but they are also highly likely as are trans men and non-binary people to be attacked because they are perceived as trans or as gender non-conforming. Domestic abuse in all its forms including coercive control is experienced by many transwomen with transphobia yet another weapon in the abusers armory and transwomen are not only more likely to be in precarious financial situations unemployed or underemployed and in legal limbo regarding their gender status but also to face huge barriers in accessing support and shelter, whether from medical law enforcement or third sector agencies. Those vulnerabilities, those precarities and those barriers are make no mistake the direct result of false and misleading narratives which are still being constructed and disseminated by mainstream media and by elected politicians. Those narratives don't have to be openly transphobic to be deeply damaging to all trans and non-binary people and to many cis women too who do not conform to gatekeepers ideas of what a woman should look and sound like. While lip service is paid to the idea of a genuine trans person the underlying message is that transwomen are intrinsically unsafe and untrustworthy. There is indeed a danger but it is one existing four not created by our trans sisters. The theme of this year's UN Day and the 16 days of action which follow it is UNITE. In closing, my most heartfelt hope during these weeks of our parliamentary business is that we can indeed unite in distinguishing reality from rhetoric and in recognising and combating both particular and structural forms of violence. Thank you. Thank you very much. Miss Chapman before proceeding, as I said earlier there's a lot of interest in this debate and given the number of members who still want to participate I'm minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes and I invite Pam Gosall to move such a motion. Moved Deputy Presiding Officer. The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes are we all agreed? I call Marie McNair to be followed by Martin Whitfield for around 4 minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. A pleasure to follow the speech by Maggie Chapman. I'm pleased to speak in this debate to recognise International Day of Elimination of Violence Against Women on 25 November and the 16 days of activism that follows. The United Nations rightly declare that violence against women and girls is one of the most widespread, recent and devastating human rights violations in our world today. It remains largely unreported due to the impunity, silence, stigma and shame surrounding it. This year the theme of 2022 is Unite Activism to End Violence Against Women and Girls. The theme is clear that supporting and investing in strong autonomous women's rights organizations and feminist movements is key to ending violence against women and girls. In preparation of my contribution and in recognition of the main theme I took time to speak to one of the women's age groups in my constituency. Clybank women's age have been providing emotional and practical support and refuge for women and children and young people subjected to domestic abuse for 41 years. I asked them what they wanted Parliament to know. They are clear that for them dedicated days of action extend beyond 16 days of the year. For women, children and young people who experience abuse they need more than 16 days of action. They live with male violence 365 days of the year some of which will be living with lifelong implications with several others murdered. The reality for women, children and young people remains greatly unchallenged. Unchange with barriers limiting options for women. That women's age point out strongly that we need to make sure enough refuge spaces available for women. This is vital when fleeing domestic abuse and they mean women have no option but to stay. The group are keen that we recognise that the current cost of living crises will impact on a women's ability to flee. Where women are more economically deprived the less financial choices they have available to them. Women deserve specials women's aid services that are underpinned by feminist analyses of domestic abuse and the cost of living crises may impact on this. To support this they call for the Scottish Government to guarantee ring-fenced funding for women's aid network in Scotland. During my 19 years as a councillor I formed a good relationship with Clydebank Women's Aid. They are a strong part of a strong partnership and policy platform that aims to support women and change societal attitudes. As part of this approach Western Barger Council became the first social land lord in Scotland to introduce a zero tolerance policy on domestic abuse within its properties. The council introduced measures which ensure victims have immediate access to practical help and specials legal assistance and support following any instant of domestic abuse.  Living with domestic abuse can seriously affect a child's emotional and psychological wellbeing and undermine the relationship with her mother and have other negative consequences. Research by UN Women show that 45% of women reported that they or a woman they know is a form of violence against women and girls. 17 women say that verbal or physical abuse by a partner has become more common. Those statistics are unacceptable. There are a number of welcome initiatives in place that are making a difference and also important legislative changes made by the Domestic Abuse Scotland Act 2018. Those are all important to the aim of eliminating violence against women and girls. However, as the UNIKE campaign points out, it is uniting with groups such as Clybank Women's Aid that will be key to the success of this and silences of women through violence must end. Thank you very much, Mr McNair. I now call Martin Whitfield to be followed by Shan Dowey for around four minutes. I am very grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I first like others extend my thanks to Pam Goswell for bringing this motion before the chamber tonight. It is a very powerful motion and talking of some of the most horrendous activities that happen around the world. I was immediately caught by the statistic that one in three women have experienced violence. As the UNIKE has pointed out, it is probably the most pervasive of human rights violations that occur around the world. That one in three struck me because of debates that I have had the privilege to listen to in the past, because, of course, the 25th of November is the anniversary of the murder of Patrina Minerva and Maria Teresa, the Mirabelle sisters in the Dominican Republic, three sisters who stood up against a dictatorship, who stood up against the violence that was being expressed towards and specifically at women, and three women who paid the ultimate price in their murder, but then the horror of the then dictator and henchman trying to cover it up to make it look like an accident. I recall the powerful words of Minerva who said, if they kill me, I'll reach my arms out from the tomb and I'll be stronger. She was stronger and women are stronger both for this date but also because of the experiences that they have lived through. I want to pick up on Pam Gosall's contribution about the role of education because I am extremely concerned that within our higher education institutions in particular we are failing the women who are victims of sexual violence and gender-based violence so accurately described by Beatrice Wishart earlier and we must do more to prevent sexual assault in all forms and we must support the victims. In January the Scottish Government said that we must support the victims where students study free from sexual harassment and gender-based violence and we do need to see more action on this. But because the 16 days that are coming up talks about work that can be done I would like to highlight Harriet Watts participation in the white ribbon campaign Edinburgh Napier staff who are given pocket-sized cards that can be handed out with information on how to respond to a disclosure of the work that staff and empowering students to come forward with the knowledge they need. The work of the Consent Collective and the University of Edinburgh about how the university community there can start talking about consent talking about sex, gender sexual harassment and relationships using language that is supportive and in a supportive environment and also make mention of the compulsory orientation module at the University of St Andrews to hire students to learn about consent to learn about sexual assault before matriculating. A very important step given the childhood experiences that we've heard of today of the challenges that young children feel and the challenge they have to their own mental health when they see sexual violence around them but I also must pay particular tribute to the work of the Emily Test the project born out of a tragedy that's doing incredible work to tackle gender-based violence and the gender-based violence charter for colleges and universities we need our educational establishments to be safe for everyone and in order to do that we need to make it safe for our women and girls because at the minute it is not and we've heard sufficient evidence in this debate alone to say more must be done I would like to finish harking back to the quote to reach beyond the grave to become stronger with a quote from Councillor Colin McGinn from East Lothian a quote that is recent a quote that speaks to where I think every single man should be and a quote that I would hope we can take forward over the next 16 days from the start it is appalling that in our modern and enlightened times violence against women and girls remains a reality for so many it is not a remote issue it is not something that happens elsewhere to other people that you don't know it is happening right here in East Lothian communities right now Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer Thank you very much, Mr Workfield and now Col Sean Dowey to be followed by Katie Clark for around four minutes, Ms Dowey Thank you, Presiding Officer I'd like to thank my colleague Pam Goswell for securing this important debate I'm dealing with a case where he was given a permanent no contact order he was also given community service probation and counselling no jail time and nothing that had any impact on his behaviour he breached his probation by entering into a relationship with my constituent becoming a step parent to her children it didn't take long before his campaign of abuse escalated and he began throwing the children along hallways grabbing them by their throat or hair and dragging them upstairs by their ears he received a non-harassment order and was told not to contact the mother or children he ignored this getting accomplices to stalk her, break windows in the family home and they had to flee to a safe house but although little to nothing happened to the abuser the trauma continues for the family the experiences they have suffered have changed them the family spoke about how this person's actions affected their children to them it's clear that the domestic violence their children endured severely traumatised them the situation has not improved in her words her son has changed beyond recognition going from a youngster who gave everyone hugs had a great sense of humour and looked out for his younger sister to one who recently attacked and seriously hurt his younger brother the family talked about burying their heads in their hands and crying over what has been taken from them by a serial abuser an abuser who has no remorse and mocks Scotland's justice system while going about his daily business regrettably this family is just one of many in Scotland who are affected by domestic abuse on a daily basis and therefore pleased to see my colleague Pam Goswell's proposal for a domestic abuse register bill violence against women and girls has no place in our society ultimately we want to create a society that eliminates violence against women and girls it is also a responsibility to establish a system that effectively deters and punishes potential abusers and one that unconditionally supports victims and to finish I'd like to touch on the need to support victims of domestic violence Ream of Salem the United Nations special rapporteur on violence against women and girls has written a letter on the GRR bill and she has raised a number of concerns for persons identifying as women the certificate would create a legal presumption that they have the right to access women-only services across Scotland such proposals would potentially open the door for violent males who identify as men to abuse the process failure to provide single sex services to female survivors of male violence leads to self-exclusion from support and refuge services she then says while I commend the Government for listening to the voices of trans women including organisations that represent them I am concerned that the consultations for this proposal do not appear to have been sufficiently inclusive of other groups of women most notably female victims of violence it has been reported that five survivors of male violence approached the Scottish Parliament equalities, human rights and civil justice committee to speak in a private session about their concerns in relation to the bill and their own experiences of self-exclusion the convener reportedly informed the group that the committee did not have the time to see them and put their objections in writing if this Government truly wants to help the victims it needs to listen to all parties when introducing new bills it needs to listen to all points of view and when members of their own party raise concerns with them they need to listen otherwise we will bring in bad law with untold unintended consequences I congratulate Pam Goswell on securing this debate and all who have contributed in this debate which is to recognise and bring focus to the international day which takes place on Friday for the elimination of violence against women and girls and to the 16 days of activism following Friday which run until 10 December human rights day as has been said a number of times in this debate the world health organisation estimate that just under one in three women globally are subjected to partner violence I think perhaps what's more shocking is that that's the similar statistic that exists in Scotland one in three women and girls in Scotland also experience the threat and the reality of physical violence so those are statistics but they're about real people and they're about real women and many of those victims are hidden and I would like to speak about one of those women who's already been referred to by Beatrice Wishall Adrian McCartney whose experience was recounted in an article in the Sunday post by Marian Scott on the 3 October 2021 and Adrian McCartney on that occasion spoke in her own words about a series of failures by the police and the prosecution service that she said had shattered her trust in Scotland's justice system she described an ongoing campaign of abuse and harassment from her estranged husband and she claimed that officers had dismissed her failures for her family's safety eventually her husband was charged and the Crown Office apologised for errors and her husband received a £450 fine more shockingly however Adrian is no longer with us she was found dead as a result of taking prescription drugs that she had been prescribed initially powerful painkillers which she was taking as a result of injuries to her arm which had been injured by her husband in a violent outburst and alcohol or of the very clear view that her death was a direct result of her treatment by the police and prosecution services unfortunately Adrian is only one of many women who recount similar experiences and I think this Parliament and members of this Parliament have to reflect on the fact that despite all of these debates we continue to fail women and girls in Scotland Last week an inquest in England found that the police had made errors which had contributed to the death of Nanim Ude aged 22 and her mother Keola Salim aged 49 in Solihull in 2018 and many of us will have heard Nanim Ude's call to the police asking for help and it was widely circulated in the media I congratulate everybody that's contributed today but I think we all have to reflect that despite these debates the threat that we face is probably getting greater and both Martin Wishaw and Pauline McNeill have spoken about the experiences of girls and young women and we need to reflect over the coming period and particularly during the days of action what we can do to make sure that we truly take the action required to eliminate violence against women and girls in this country and indeed worldwide Thank you very much Ms Clark, I now call Alexander Stewart to be followed by Pam Duncan-Glancy for around four minutes Mr Stewart Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and can I congratulate my colleague Pam Gossel on securing this member's business debate this evening Every year we mark the start of 16 days of activism against violence against women and girls but this year the focus of the campaign will be on unite to ensure that girls and women are supported it will also promote the leadership for women and girls to increase their participation in democracy around the world initiatives along the lines of ask her to stand campaign have a role to play in this promotion however it is clear to increase the number of women in positions of power there are many risk factors associated with violence against women including poverty, isolation which have been exacerbated during the Covid pandemic and sadly women are already reporting significant increases in violence against them in countries around the world but the sad truth is that Scotland has not been immune from the effects of the pandemic in this regard for we know that Scotland's domestic abuse charges are at a high alarmingly organisations such as Scotland's women's aid and rate crisis Scotland have reported huge increase in demand for their front line services funding is crucial and the need that we have at present when we are going through this cost of living crisis more and more people will be requiring support projects such as Fife Women's Aid and Kingdom Abuse Survivors Project in my own region have received funding in the past but will require more to maintain and sustain their services and I look forward to hearing from the minister giving assurances that these will come forward in the coming months and years many of these organisations will tell you the effects of the pandemic are being felt across the sector we also know that there is a quote backlog of thousands of domestic violence cases of which 55% involve allegations of sexual violence some victims currently have to wait up to three years between reporting their abuse and securing the abuse for coming to court Scotland's women's aid has warned that the risk undergoing and the confidence of women in the justice system and we cannot have it undermined at all women should not be fright fearful of the length of time it's going to take and I hope I'm wrong although I feel I'll be right unless urgent action is taken to tackle that backlog but while this issue is a global one indeed a Scottish one for me it's a personal one my mother herself was subjected to violence from my father for many years and I witnessed that as a young child she accepted this abuse for years and blamed herself before she had the courage to take her three small children out of the situation before she became a cystistic herself but many women and girls do not have that courage to leave their abusive partner and much more needs to be done to support them to have the courage to leave an abusive relationship Presiding Officer a few issues are more deserving of parliamentary time than we are having this evening's debate it's with regret that this debate itself has to take place at all but it has to because we need to speak up we need to make sure that voices are heard that people sit up and listen and I paid tribute to Pam Gosw for the work she's doing on her member's bill and I hope it continues the success that it deserves only through society acting as a whole can we finally eliminate the violence and ensure that women can live without fear wherever they find themselves Thank you Presiding Officer Thank you very much indeed Mr Shew I now call Pam Duncan Glancy for around four minutes Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and thank you to Pam Gosw for securing this debate it is a sad reality as we approach international day for the elimination of violence against women 2022 that gendered violence is still widespread in Scotland as we've already heard in the chamber today one in three women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime and an average of six rapes are reported a day women are often subjected to gendered violence from an early age with a report from the University of Glasgow revealing that sexual harassment is common in Scotland's secondary schools this is not only deeply upsetting or even traumatising for young girls but it can mean that we have generations growing up doing gender based violence as somehow normal or inevitable we cannot allow this to continue violence against women is an epidemic most women have experienced or know someone who has experienced misogyny, assault or violence at the hands of men and it is particularly prevalent amongst women from minority groups disabled women in the UK are twice as likely to experience gendered violence 83 per cent of trans women have experienced hate crime and ethnic and migrant women face higher levels of domestic homicide and abuse driven suicide every one of us, not just us in this chamber but across our country has the responsibility to do everything we possibly can to end it that means challenging misogyny when we see or hear it rather than looking away as well as educating ourselves and reflecting on our own internalised views and perspectives men in particular have a responsibility to do and be better and the attitudes of men must improve to end the violence this is of course not to say that all men are violent towards women but we need male allies to fight this battle with us it also means tackling relentlessly the inequalities and income power and wealth that drive misogyny too there are countless incredible organisations across Scotland working tirelessly to end gendered violence and support the victims of it and I want to give thanks to them today for their work for the support of the women's aid the Daisy project, Glasgow and Clyde rape crisis wise women and more for all the invaluable work that you do however this vital work is impacted by short term funding arrangements with the funding received by many of these organisations due to end by September 2023 that means they are in a constant cycle of applying for, receiving and then re-applying for funding whilst operating with standstill or reduced funding from the Government or local authority not only does this mean that too much of this organisation's time is consumed with worrying about it, it is distracting from service provision and it's costly violence against women and girls costs over £1.8 billion a year in harm that it causes in Glasgow the cost to the public services and the cost to the wider economy through loss of output however the standing group on violence against women in Glasgow, estimate that properly funding women's services would save £6.5 million to the public purse each year. The Scottish Government has the power and responsibility to ensure that these organisations are funded properly and I hope that it will do so. The Scottish Government and we as a Parliament also have responsibility and authority to act through the creation of legislation to protect women and girls and enshrine their rights in law and I support the recommendations of the Baroness Kennedy report and I welcome the Government's commitment to holding a public consultation prior to introducing a bill to Parliament and a new statutory aggravation of misogyny. However the law alone cannot end violence against women. Much more must be done to challenge the misogyny that has come ingrained in society and institutions. I also therefore support calls in Baroness Kennedy's report for the Government to invest efficient resources in training across the criminal justice system and in front line agencies like schools and colleges to improve technology and police capacity for recording and reporting and in measures to ensure that women and boys understand misogyny. Every one of us has the responsibility to do everything in our power to end violence against women and girls. Let us use this international day for the elimination of violence against women and the 16 days of activism against gender-based violence to redouble our efforts and work to eliminate gender-based violence and inequality once and for all. Thank you. I thank Pam Goswell for bringing the motion recognising the international day for the elimination of violence against women and the vital role that men must play in challenging and eradicating violence against women and girls. I start by picking up on a point that Beatrice Wishart and Katie Clark spoke about, and it is to convey the Scottish Government's condolences to the families of Adrian McCartney. I thank Pam Goswell for bringing the motion recognising the international day for the elimination of violence against women and the 16 days of activism against women and girls. As I said just, we give our condolences to that family, to Adrian, but also it just gives us the reason why we are all here today again at the outset of this debate. We hear about another woman who has died at the hands of a man. I would also want to play a tribute to the women and girls in Iran. In Afghanistan, like Pam Goswell, Michelle Thompson and Beatrice Wishart we look at those women in awe and we send our solidarity and support to them. I thought I would also like to highlight that next week there will be a further opportunity during the wider Scottish Government debate to reflect on what more we can all do to ensure that gender-based violence is tackled head-on. Beatrice Wishart and Paul McNeill say that the root of violence against women is misogyny and we think that we are going to do something against violence against women and we have just heard very eloquently from Pam Duncan Glancy on why we all agree with Baroness Kennedy's report and why that work to bring forward that piece of legislation and those aggravations are incredibly important. The plain fact is that this is not a women's problem this is a men's problem so the men have to step up they must play their role in eradicating this blight in our society. Violence against women and girls is a place in our vision for a safe, strong and successful Scotland and as White Rib in Scotland the campaign to involve men in tackling violence against women say while most men are not violent to women many ignore the problem by simply remaining silent they unwittingly create a conducive context for violence to continue this must stop they must take responsibility and that's why the initiatives that are in Whitfield described by White Rib in Scotland are so welcome and needed and as I look around the chamber today I know in my heart that we all acknowledge that men must recognise that violence against women is a violation of women's fundamental human rights and Maggie Chapman very eloquently gave us many examples in her contribution The International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women on the 25th of November marks the launch of the 16 days of activism in Scotland over this period we will come together unite many times and at many venues across Scotland including in this Parliament to recognise the work being undertaken day in and day out to tackle and eradicate violence against women we will also talk of the challenges and what more we can do and must do individually and collectively to tackle this failing in society and I know that these are challenging times like the pandemic and the cost crisis that make lives of the victim survivors harder and place enormous pressure on the life saving services on which many rely so let us take this opportunity to reflect on what we still wish to achieve let us do that with openness let us do so with respect and with recognition that others look to all of us to meet the challenges head on but most importantly let us acknowledge differences of opinion not let this be the opportunity for a political point score a seek common ground I know that is the spirit in which this debate has been undertaken today tackling and eradicating violence against women is a key priority for this Government championing this issue is something that I will continue to do it's the thing that I've done since the first year stepped in this building and we will continue to deliver those societal changes needed to ensure every woman and girl in Scotland lives free free from abuse and all the contributions from everyone today that recognises the opportunity to come together with a call for an end to gender based violence but I would go further and say this is something we should be doing daily all of us so I agree with the Clydebank women's aid workers whom Ari McNair spoke with this is not just for the 16 days it's for every day and we will do all we can around about funding we currently have an independent review on going right now that's looking at the flanscape for women's services across Scotland to make them more sustainable and to make sure that they've got the strength to carry on and if you've not seen it yet please go and look at the six month report from the delivery and equally safe fund you will be inspired, motivated and hopefully you will see some of the difference that these organisations are making especially when they take an intersectional approach to their work so I met with COSLA and other key partners to look again at our equally safe strategy and how we can galvanise and collaborate working with key partners as always I am more than happy to speak with members about the development of the equally safe and I'm also aware of the ideas by many in this Parliament many this evening of what we need to do to make a difference here influence policy and influence our approach those with lived experience must form the backbone of our policy development as Carol Morgan says we must amplify their voices equally I consider the need to look at how young people are embedded within our discussion and are better allowed to play their part in developing solutions to the challenges that we save so Pam Duncan Gladyson and Pauline McNeill spoke of schools and I hope they will be interested in the work of the gender equality task force in education and learning so please have a look at that and I would also pay tribute for every opportunity I ever get to pay tribute to Fiona Drude and Emily Tess my door is and will continue to be open to listen to any initiatives that further the collective aspiration just as I am prepared to respond to constructive criticism around what we could be doing better so I await the details of Pam Gozel's proposal with interest she knows this we have discussed it before my conclusion this evening's debate has highlighted yet again what this Parliament does so well the ability of members on all sides of the chamber to come together in solidarity and with a renewed commitment to tackle violence against women and girls I acknowledge the appetite for further action to tackle the root causes I renew my offer to listen to any views and ideas about how that might be achieved many have been articulated tonight what is important is that we all leave here really in mind and that we as politicians work together and lead by examples like many speakers I would also take the time to pay tribute to the front line organisations the survivors and campaigners of violence against women and girls both here and globally as we approach the 16 days of activism we rightly recognise the 16 days of activism that this is a daily fight that we must win so in the spirit of the women and girls in Iran unite in their cry freedom thank you thank you very much indeed minister that concludes the debate and I close this meeting of parliament


So, this morning, good morning, everybody, for the agenda today, we have the HACFS planning. We had an email ballot, I should say, on the amendment to the process for counting contributors. So we'll review that and then we need to get each of the workgroup chairs to basically provide Todd and team with the list of contributors so that we can make that public and if people want to contest that, they may. And then we have the performance and scaling working group, Mark is going to review with us the proposed charter that the team has come up with. And if we have a quorum, we'll have a vote. Is there anything else people would like on the agenda today? Hearing nothing, I think we can start. So Todd. All right, I'll move through the first two topics pretty quickly. They're really just FYIs. So on the HACFS planning side, no real update. We are still looking September 21st and 22nd in Chicago, just trying to finalize that spot. We'll let you know as soon as that gets locked down. On the Europe side, we do have a doodle pullout for that still. It's looking like no strong preference between the five weeks that we laid out. So if you do have a preference, please be sure to get that in there ASAP. Otherwise, we're going to move to lock in a location for that. It might be worthwhile, Todd, just to send out a reminder and deadline for closing the poll. Yeah, people. I mean, I suspect that part of the problem with getting people respond is everybody's out on a holiday. So yep, yeah, we'll do. Thanks. All right. And then onward from there, the TSC election process for 2017. So let me just drop this link in. So the only thing that got added was there was an email vote last week, like Chris said, and that is really to include the any of the work group contributors. So we put that verbiage in there just as an FYI. I will be reaching out to all of the work group leads over the next week or so to collect any names from them, from people they believe to be contributors. So in the doc that I just dropped into the chat window, there is a link in there in the middle of it that shows the master list of all the contributors, maintainers and whatnot. So we will be continuing to update that until September 9th. Sorry, August 9th at 5 p.m., which will be the cutoff. We will do a final review in the TSC call on August 10th in the morning of that list and then kick off the nomination process and ultimately the election thereafter, based on the timeline in this document. So over the coming weeks, please be sure to continue to check the list that we are constantly updating. If you do not see yourself on there and should be on there, please reach out to either me or Dave Huseby, who's covering in Tracy Kurtz absence. Any questions there? All right. Yeah, I think that's a comment. Are we going to go through this process every year? Or is this kind of baked into the meaning in terms of the WG contributors? Or should we start moving some of this, especially the material that we produce on to GitHub or some other venue that can be easily be captured? So Chris, I'll defer to you. From my view, every year we'll review an election timeline in the rough process and just call for any objections to ensure that the TSC is happy with the election process because that's really what the overarching charter dictates. In this case, the workgroup contributors, the addition of that was just approved for 2017. The TSC can choose to extend that indefinitely or keep this just for this year. That's really up to the TSC, not something that I or the Linux Foundation can dictate. Yeah, I thought Todd that we, I mean, let me just go back to the thing. I thought that we had just amended the process. On an ongoing basis? Yeah. Okay. So potentially that was my misunderstanding then. Okay. So I will say that I had intended it to amend the process that we would use, which isn't actually written down anywhere, I guess. It's, I mean, aside from what's in the charter. Yep. So maybe VIP into your point, maybe the thing that we should do is to talk to formally document this as part of the process. Yep. Because I agree. I don't think we should be going through this every year. That's so I mean, Todd, I don't know if you want to just work with Brian and figure out what the right way of essentially documenting the process should be. Okay. We can likely just add that to the wiki. I think that would be fine if that's the answer, but I had actually, yeah, I mean, just to be clear, I had intended this to to sort of codify the process that we adopted last year, essentially. Okay. So thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. So if we could get the chairs to each pull together a list of their active contributors and if you have the emails, that's great. Todd, I gather that you have the ability to get emails from the accounts or no. Yeah. So I have in terms of the work group leads. Yes. Yeah, I have all their emails. So I'll be reaching out to them to call for any work group. So when the work group leads each come up with their list. Yep. If they don't have emails, I'm assuming you can chase them down or we'll do our best. Okay. Yeah. So that'll be part of reviewing the list over the coming weeks. So if we don't have someone, we'll call for it. I do think it's important for the work group chairs to each to do that in the next week so that there is time for people to dispute if that's their intent. So if we could have, you know, I don't want to call it a final list, but if we could have the list. Essentially staged, if you will, for the final vote by next week, then that gives people a week to contest it if that's their desire. So am I the one compiling the final list? Should you just have them all forward it to me? This is Dave. That's up to Brian and Todd and you don't know. It's not my call, Dave. Okay. Well, I was just wondering if Tracy was the person who had been. He was the one. Yes. Yeah. Well, then it's me. Oh, okay. So yeah. I was going to say as a working group chair, should I compile the list and send it to Dave and copy my working group mail list on it so people can get get a heads up. That seems reasonable to me. Mark, I think. Yeah. I'll plan to post a master list of names. Like first initial and last name without email addresses so that people can quickly check to see if they're in the list. That way, emails, but I mean, maybe actually that's a good point Dave, maybe. Yeah. But maybe it's different for students in the universities doing, you know, like D.C. or student number here, you know, so I can do first initials and last names, and if they see themselves on the list and they know. Not to pursue it further that we should we have. Spreadsheet then or. Yeah, where is it? I gotta find it. In the link that Todd put in the chat. Okay. So if you go there, then it's, the list is in the middle of the process there. But that's actually, yeah, if you raise a good point there with the email addresses. Okay. All right, I think we've dealt with that. So again, Vip and thanks for bringing up the point on making this the ongoing process until we change it again. And then finally, Mark, you're up with the proposed charter, which I see has been linked into chat. Yes, I had put it in and I think Todd may have just did it and done it as well. Excuse me. So do you want me to run through this or. Yeah, you don't have to read it, but just sort of highlight, you know, the deliverables and so forth, I think. Okay. So this is actually a slight rework of the original proposal back in April and DC that tries to incorporate the feedback we got there when we first formed the group. So the key parts here are it, it's really a, you know, cross project forum for anyone in the distributed ledger technology community. So earlier back in April that we didn't want it limited to just hyper ledger projects. And so to that end, you know, are even in touch with people who run the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance performance and scale group they're not quite started yet, but they're happy to join. And we'll start when they, when they actually have some code they can work on on their end I think. You know, initial work will be the document will be a document or more likely multiple documents which define, you know, we have to do attack so many terms so we all are on the same footing for what the terminology means. For both performance and scalability, and then attribute to metrics of different of different distributed ledgers and technologies. Eventually, you know, this group is not charted according to this document, you know, the charter is not to go off and write a test suite the charter is to be a working group that defines what a test suite might do. And then there'll be, you know, at least one project spun up out of this to go off and actually write code to do a test suite. So this is actually very timely. Discussion because I actually have in my inbox this morning, a request that's suggesting that there's at least one member getting ready to make a proposal for that but I also happen to know that there are others in the wings. There are people that have been playing around with, you know, benchmarking frameworks and so forth. And I'm wondering if I'm wondering if there's been any discussion as to how that might be handled. Should we have the work group sort of look at these and you know should we have one should we have multiples should we know if there are multiples should we try and figure out how we can get to one. Any thoughts on that. For me, I think, you know, we've looked at a couple that people have sent out on the email list. You know, there's a couple of universities that have done work. And we've discussed, you know, the pros and cons of them. One of the things I think I'm trying to get the working group, you know, that we're working towards is going through an identifying three or four key use cases that have different characteristics so financial versus asset management or healthcare that all have, you know, different performance scalability. You know, attributes that they'll look for. So we can make sure that the test suite, you know, and what we define will encompass everything. So, in one hand, you know, I think it's a little premature to go with a test suite already if we haven't really defined what we want the test suite to do. I don't want to hold up implementation of a test suite. So I'm happy, you know, to work with a project. Hopefully the people are part of our performance and scale working group. What other people think out there. So kind of framework will be used because you need a level playing field to compare different different DLT is for the same DLT running different applications for use cases. There has to be. I mean, I know that Brian, for example, last year had come up with the cloud platform that we could use. But I think it was a little premature given that most of the DLTs were under development, heavy development at that time. And now that more things have matured. I get the feeling that if we have a test net stood up or something that is quite uniform, then we could have these kind of tests run. In a way that, you know, that compares the different protocols in a objective way. So that's an interesting point that I think that if. So I think that the the issue of having a standing test net or whatever to test against from a performance and scale perspective would potentially yield. I always say this unfavorable results because I think, you know, if you're going to deploy something for Internet of Things that, you know, in the permission kind of a context the way we are working towards here. It might be configured very differently than something that was just transferring assets from one bank to the next. You know, in one case you're looking at a fire hose and then the other case you're looking at this, you know, constant barrage of events from everywhere, right? So I'm not sure that having a standing test environment is necessarily the right thing to be testing against. I think, again, I think that in many cases it'll be something that based on how it's deployed and configured, you know, may be different given the use case. I don't know if that's been discussed at all in the work group. But then how are you going to publish metrics for any of these things? I think it's kind of that.  Sorry. Dan, go ahead. Yeah, sorry. Can you hear me now? Again. I think that the point of this work group is to resolve those kinds of questions like you were just raising and to the question of what should be the relationship between a project proposal in the performance space and what the charter of the work group is. I think for this work group to be relevant and meaningful, I think it should have a close relationship between what kind of projects come through for performance and which don't. So I think that's kind of where I was right. That's kind of what I was hinting at. We've already talked about that kind of relationship with the architecture working group and the platforms. It's just sort of the architecture working group is trying to look at big problems and how pieces fit together. And in that role, we're providing feedback to all of the platform developers and vice versa. It feels like that should be the same kind of relationship here. Yeah, but so that maybe should be called out in the scope of the work products that this group is meant to play that role specifically and in helping evaluate proposals we may get that Chris hinted at. So we tried to cover that in a vague sense in the last paragraph at the last sentence during the work products group that the PSWG will also review and consult with other working groups and projects is appropriate. Would we want that a little more concrete. Could you send Mark a copy of the or make sure Mark has a copy of the architecture group just so you can see the wording that we used. Yeah, I'll do that. I guess update probably the work group work product section to explicitly say that the work product should include recommendations and for both review and testing and performance testing test suite recommendations for the projects in the group. Okay, I'll go off and look at that. Now one of the things we sort of danced around on this call that we made sure we discussed on our last Tuesday's column, the working group was reviewing this with governance. And when you think of spec or TPC, you know their their governance standards body so that you can't publish a spec number without permission from spec, you know, and it has to get reviewed. The people that were on the working group call felt that that's not the business we want to be in.  We'll feel that's the right approach, or do we want to somehow have a, you know, way to validate, which implies a lot more work of anyone's use of the test suite to publish a number. Yeah, that's Brian is not on I take it. That's probably some we we yeah I think that publishing actual numbers from hyper ledger is probably something that we want to avoid. Either because we pissed somebody off or because we get called on it and so forth so I can certainly see you know publishing here's the kinds of measures and how we expect them to be measured kind of a thing. And as being wholly appropriate, but actually publishing results. Maybe not so much. And it's probably something we want to talk about with Brian, and maybe the LF itself, I don't know. I'm taught I'm not aware of any other groups that did do anything like that in LF. I don't know all of them but yeah. We decided it wasn't the business we wanted to be in. Yeah, I agree with you. So let's not go look for trouble. Right, right. I don't know if you want to put that in here anywhere. Yeah, I'll look at adding that to be clear that this is not not a governance body. Those numbers without any kind of attestations from third party or objective. I stand or Oh, so I will tell you what we did so one of the groups that I worked in the past is the web services interoperability work group now they weren't focused on performance and scalability and benchmarking. It was, you know, the organization was put in place to define a set of criteria that you could use to measure a given implementation or set of implementations of web services protocols that would indicate whether or not you were likely to get interoperability. Right, if it passed the test suite, then you could say yes, this is interoperable. And vendors would try to do that. The thing that we did though as we said, we're not going to say, you know, the organization the web services interoperability organization was not going to say, IBM's or Microsoft's or oracles or anybody else's web services engine was or wasn't interoperable. But rather that they would put the test suite out there and say, you consumer can judge for yourself. And so, you know, by putting the thing out there and letting people run the tests themselves and draw their own conclusions. was was felt to be the way to avoid having to deal with the potential that the organization itself would then be held liable for liable for liable. Right.  And most of these, most software products, even the products that are written by people like Microsoft do come with standard disclaimers. Yeah, it's not like they will, you know, if I start trading with a with a with something that that I buy from a vendor. It's not liable. If I start losing huge quantities of money using that software, they'll, you know, they'll, they'll stand by it to a certain degree, but they do never certify it as free of bugs or anything like that. I mean, so we do, you know, we have to balance both views, meaning you obviously are not, you're going to put a standard disclaimer there. And at the same time, you're, you're not just going to say, Oh, XYZ has a protocol called XYZ and they claim it's the most performant based on this running of the test street. I mean, so either there has to be a way to record this in a non controversial way. The results, maybe use a blockchain to capture that, I don't know, you know, the results, which one. Well, anyone that can actually capture the results with a digital signature or something that says, Yes, this did happen and this is what the results where instead of just relying on hearsay. Right. Right.  I get that. But, you know, then what is the purpose in us producing all this tooling and you know, test suites and all those other stuff maybe can throw out some results as a result of running it. That that'll be non reputable evidence. I don't know. I mean, these are some of anyway, we can talk about it during the actual calls of the performance and working group. Right. And heart made a point, a good point here in the chat window that, you know, maybe to, you know, there's a thing on the code that, you know, in the code license that says if you use this code to publish numbers you have to put, you know, X amount of detail in about how you did it and what changes you made to the code things like that. And that, you know, at that point becomes part of the software license if you will. But I do think the way that you have it framed up now is good that the output of the work group leads to that project, not so much that we need to define what the extents of that project are in order to approve the work group. And then I will accept your suggestion there. It's fine. You know, whatever we have today is fine. Okay. So I'm just so you accepted the change. Okay. Todd, did we ever get to a quorum? No, unfortunately, we're still too shy. Unless Greg Morali or Sheehan have joined and not joined up in the chat window. Yeah, no, we're still. All right. Well, so, Mark, I think it might be worthwhile because I know you guys did go through and, you know, as a work group, you know, vote on this and review it. So it might be worthwhile to sort of take the feedback that we have here and do another pass and then we'll take it maybe to email when you guys think you're done. Next week is the case may be, again, I, summers are tough to get quorum. And so we may have to resort to the email trick. But thanks for bringing this forward. And I guess unless there's any other topics people want to bring up, I think we're very good. All right. Well, thanks, everybody. I'll give you all 25 minutes back. Thanks. Have a good day.


hmm let's take a question now guys going forward I am assuming that you guys will use this particular relation although you can solve the same question by just using total work done is equal to change in contingency you don't need this particular relation but then since we have derived it okay and when it comes to spring using this relation is easier than using work done is equal to k2 minus k1 so try to use this particular relation get familiar to this because you know at times this will give you a quick answer all right so all of you draw this figure there is a mass m like this spring with spring constant k is there okay so mass m is released from the rest from a height h as shown in the figure it slides and compresses the spring of stiffness k you have to find the maximum compression in the spring okay find out the maximum compression in the spring quickly root of 2 mgh by k see whenever you use work energy theorem you are using it between the two points point number one and point number two you can pick any of the two points fine so I'll take the two points where the point number one is this and point number two is where the spring get compressed maximum right so spring will get compressed till the velocity of mass m goes to zero fine so at the maximum compression the velocity of mass m will become zero fine so let's try to use this particular relation only so what done is what zero gravity is doing the work but that work you are considering it as a potential energy fine and you're saying that this line this line could be the logical point the line for which you are assuming gravitation potential to be zero fine so you one is what initial potential g will be equal to mgh fine k1 is zero it was at rest okay then you do is what finally the block comes to the level horizontal level where I mean that is a level where you assume the gravitation potential to be zero so this is zero this is gravitation potential energy but then there is a spring potential energy at point two initially there was no spring potential energy now there is a spring also so spring will gain a potential energy half kx square and we know that k2 is zero so u2 has two potential g spring and gravity so if you substitute it you get zero is equal to u2 which will come out to be half kx square gravitation potential is zero so this plus k2 is zero minus u1 which is mgh plus k1 which is zero fine so from here you'll get the value of maximum compression in the spring which will come out to be two mgh by k okay let's take up next question you guys have any doubt on this particular question any one of you have any doubts sir why is the work zero see who can do the work normal force doesn't do any work in this case because normal force is always perpendicular to the displacement it acts perpendicular to surface fine gravity can do the work but that work you are already factoring in in a form of potential energy so you can't factor factor in the work done by the gravity twice fine so there is no other force so only gravity is there and when it compresses a spring all the spring also applies a force but then even the spring force you are considering it as a potential energy fine so no other force is left that is why work done will be equal to zero because this is the work done not by all the forces but by the other forces for which you have not considered the potential energy see now let me caution you okay so there's a small caution here now what will happen is that you will develop your own version of conservation of energy okay so you will be like a friction would have been there then we will have considered right yes you will consider the work done by friction the friction is there okay so the caution is this you should write it down because this is something which destroys the chances to solve the question do not create your version of work energy theorem that you should never ever do if you start doing this you'll be always confused okay because I have seen students you know making version of work energy theorem themselves like they'll be like okay loss in potential energy will be equal to gain in cutting energy or loss in cutting edge you will be able to gain in potential energy or some random stuff okay so do not put your brain in you know for creating a formula always fall back to this particular relation before every question first write down this and just one by one find out the values u2 k2 u1 k1 and work done by other forces all of you clear about it do not create your version of work energy theorem you may get some questions right okay you may get it right I'm not saying you'll not get it right but you'll confuse yourself and you'll never be confident okay so let us move to next question in case you have any doubts feel free to message you can message your whatsapp you can message on the chat whatever you may feel comfortable and I will not take your name another best part about the online class is that you can you know secretly ask a doubt you can be anonymous so if you are feeling you know conscious when you ask a doubt I mean you can freely text me your doubts I was very conscious of asking doubts in a class so I always used to keep quiet and later on when everybody used to go I used to ask anyways so a block of mass m okay there is a block of mass m that strikes a light pan fitted with a vertical spring so there's a small pan like this it is a light pan okay it strikes a light pan fitted with a vertical spring after falling through a distance of H so it falls a distance of H then strikes this pan okay if the stiffness of the spring is K find the maximum compression in the spring get the value of maximum compression in the spring maximum compression in the springs okay what is the maximum compression no Niranjan that's not correct the one who has sent me the WhatsApp message it was not correct you can just take a pick of whatever answer you get and send me across should I do it those who are sending me answers over WhatsApp please understand I cannot chat with you I can only look at what you are sending okay so don't ask me questions on WhatsApp that I mean don't try to chat with me or you can post your doubts that is fine that I can address here guys see this is the probably the initial phases of you learning the application of work energy theorem right so start the question by writing the you know formula itself so always write this down and then start solving it right and when you write potential energy of the gravity you need to understand what point you are taking zero potential energy all right no till now nobody has sent me the correct answer no good many of you are sending me message one of you send me an imaginary answer as in root over some negative quantity that will be not correct definitely hmm who is this Sukheer that's correct let's see how to solve this particular question maybe Bharat you are doing some silly error probably the conceptually it may be correct but then does it matter so do it slowly and get it right the first time okay till now only Sukheer has sent me the correct answer fine let me now solve this particular question I want everybody to participate see you can clearly see that I have got at least 12 answers from people who have what sent me and only one was correct so don't hesitate to answer you can be wrong right now you can see that only one person was right and everybody else was wrong don't hesitate okay let's try to solve this now let's assume that when it hits the spring the spring get compressed by a distance of x so this is the maximum compression let's say x is a maximum compression fine so I'll take my second point there only this is my point number one and point number two is the point where the spring get compressed maximum all right so what I'll do I'll draw a horizontal line and I'll say that the line that passes through the maximum compression point of the spring represents gravitation potential g to be 0 fine so what does it mean u2 automatically becomes 0 and u1 will be what u1 will be equal to mg h plus x I'm talking about gravitational potential energy fine many of you might not have taken x while finding the gravitation potential g okay the u2g and u1g now there is a spring potential g finally u2s is also there which is half kx square okay so what is left now k1 is 0 right initially the object was at rest and finally also it is 0 now the one assumption we are making throughout can you guess what is the assumption we are making here when we are applying this over here the assumption we are making is that no energy is lost due to collision fine if energy get lost due to collision you cannot take point number one and point number two when the spring get compressed because in between there's a collision okay so there is no other force that is doing work other than gravity and spring for which you have already considered the potential energy right so you get 0 is equal to u2 which is a spring potential g that is half kx square plus k2 which is 0 minus u1 now there is no spring potential g initially but there was gravitational potential g that is mg edge plus x fine plus kinetic edge is 0 so you get a quadratic equation just solve this and you'll get the answer okay the answer should be this x will be equal to this is what you should get fine so I hope it is clear in case you have any doubt please message immediately any doubts so let us move to next question right let us take up the next question it refers to a figure so let me draw the figure first all of you please draw it with me small m this is a last question then we'll take up another concept so this is a scenario okay so two blocks of mass small m and capital M they are placed like this this is the ground okay they're connected by a light spring of stiffness k they kept on a smooth horizontal surface as shown what should be the initial compression of the spring what you're doing is you're compressing this small m okay what should be the initial compression of the spring so that system will be about to break off from the surface so when you compress it right so suppose you compress it up to this level okay and then you release it so when you release it okay what happens is block will try to move up because a spring force okay and when it moves up spring may get extended also fine so you need to find out how much should be this compression in the spring initial compression x0 so that capital M can break off from the surface so capital M you need to find x0 what is x0 for which capital M breaks off from the surface attempted breaking of the surface means that capital M leaves the surface capital M jumps off should I do it what is the condition for capital M to leave the surface what is the condition all of you normal force to be zero okay now if if it is placed just like that normal force will never be equal to zero because there is a gravitational force acting on it which is mg and since it is not accelerating there has to be a normal force which is equal to mg fine but what if there is a spring force upwards which is let's say kx1 and then if you balance out the forces read kx1 plus n minus mg then this is equal to zero you'll get condition when normal force becomes zero so normal force becomes zero when extension in the spring becomes equal to capital mg by k this should happen then only it will leave the surface let me call it as x2 initially it was x1 fine now try to do this with chapter from book one is going on in school know that is not correct you need not know the spring length okay because that doesn't matter spring constant is given so deviation from the length of the spring is what determines okay so we are at par with whatever is going on in school I received another answer see there will be initial compression already in the spring you need to find out further how much you need to compress it okay now let me do this I'll do this now okay so let us say that when it is kept at rest the spring has some compression right let us say x0 was an initial compression which is mg by k okay this much compression will be already there because small m is a m is sitting at the top of the spring okay now let us say that you have further compressed it by a distance of x1 okay and then released it so what will happen now is that from a compression of x0 plus x1 it should go to extension of x2 then only capital m will be able to jump off okay so this is our initial point this is our initial point and this is our final point so between these two point I'm going to apply work energy theorem fine let me take up another color pen I'm using only yellow and white how is this nice okay so fine so I'm going to first write down work energy theorem work done is u2 plus k2 minus u1 plus k1 now you'll see that only gravity and spring forces are there and both of them you are considering potential energy so this left hand side becomes 0 okay so w is 0 u2 is what the final this thing final potential energy so u2 will have gravitation potential energy let's say u2g and it will have a spring potential u2s fine so we need to first assume what is a zero gravitation potential so we can assume that the level where it is initially compressed that is the gravitation potential g to be 0 fine so I can say that initial gravitation potential is 0 fine so final gravitation potential g will be what mg into x0 plus x1 plus x2 because x1 is compression so from this much down it should go that much up it should get extended the spring so total height from this zero potential g line will be x0 plus x1 plus x2 okay I hope it is clear in case not please message final spring potential g will be half k times x2 square because x2 is the extension in the spring now all right and then I need to quickly find out initial gravitation potential g which is 0 because that's where you have assumed the gravitation potential g to be 0 and initial spring potential g is half k times what half k into what square x0 plus x1 square guys okay u2g see I have assumed this line to be zero gravitation potential g this is a line initially the block was in and right now block is compressed okay so this is initial position now finally what should happen finally this spring should get extended by x2 right now it is compressed compressed by how much x0 plus x1 so it should move up by x0 plus x1 and then further go up by x2 so if you if it moves up by x0 plus x1 it will go to the natural length and then it should go to x2 further up okay so that's how you get gravitation potential g as half x0 plus x1 plus x2 sorry mg into x0 plus x1 plus x2 that is gravitation potential g and spring potential g is nothing but half k into whatever extension or compression square is it clear now so this is u1s okay and w is 0 so just substitute this is u2 sum of gravitation potential g finally plus spring potential g and this is u1 sum of gravitation and spring potential g and anyways since we are finding the minimum compression initial kending edge will be 0 and final also I am taking it to be 0 is it clear all of you it was not a very straightforward question but I thought of taking it up is it clear kindly message yes or no if you have any doubts doubts what break Niranjan are you not enjoying it we'll see Ashutosh we'll see