Run it up, do run it back, yeah.  Oh, no. Run it up, run it back. Come on, it is Wednesday. Welcome to Run It Back. Lou has just done that thing where you make the turn and you like the music. How's it feel? I'm digging it. No, it's happening. I'm digging it. It's happening. Michelle Beatle, Chandler Parsons, Lou Williams, of course, Shyam Sharani, a stadium insider, is joining us as well from his palace in the Midwest. Guys, what a game. There were only three of them last night, but one of them was an instant classic for some of us. Let's go ahead and get right into it. Spurs stunning the Phoenix Suns. That's the one time I feel comfortable saying it. It's a late second basket, 1.15, 1.14. At some point, Phoenix led by 20. Hey. Oh, my gosh. We've finished with 18 and eight. Keldon Johnson with 27 points. And Durant, I mean, this is the moment, right here. That's just stunning shock and what is happening. It's a crazy sequence of events. You saw it right there. He has the ball stolen. Keldon Johnson with the last second bucket. Was he fouled? Should they have called a timeout? It felt like time stood still for a second. Yeah, on the replay, I didn't see the foul, but you see kind of Trey Jones kind of grab his arm after almost like apologizing for fouling him. He must have got him in the eye or something, but this was nuts. I turned this game off and then happened to get the notification that it was a close game. But look, if you see right here. It looked like he was anticipating the foul. It looked like he was expecting the foul. Honestly, Vogel, I would have loved if he would have just burned a timeout right here when he sees the double coming. You have one wasted. Yeah, that's no foul. Redo it. I don't see a foul. It's like he just took it. I think it was just anticipation. Usually a lot of guys take that foul quick, especially under 10 seconds. He probably was expecting something to happen, and they just didn't do it. And coaches sometimes, they'll tell you, they'll say they're expecting a foul. Literally do not foul. Go for the ball. First. And literally at least try and get a jump ball. And I think that's what Katie was doing here, but I got to say, Michelle, these spurs, they're fun to watch. They're fun to watch. They remind me of Oklahoma City last couple of years where they have this young talent. They have those four guys, Vacell, Johnson, and so on. And obviously, Wimby, I really, really like. They play hard. They play the right way. They're one piece, two pieces away when I can't help but think of these Siakums, these Levines, these DeMar DeRozans becoming back to San Antonio. Someone like that that can kind of carry the load like an SGA does for the Thunder. I love them. I think this potential is through the roof. The sky's the limit. They're obviously well coached. They play hard. I love everything they're doing. And on the flip side, the Suns, man, you call a timeout right there. You get the ball in. You're three and one. You feel a lot better than you do today. But this was a huge win. And every game is a growing opportunity for the spurs. And this one was huge. You go in.  If I'm Frank Vogel and I got the ball in Kevin Durant's hands, I feel comfortable right there to not call a timeout. So it's just one of those things. Rarely do we ever see a team actually get a steal in that situation. And it happened. But Michelle, you win. The spurs are fairly entertaining. Yay. They are fairly entertaining. I had a lot to do with it. And the Vasell, I got the contract. I was like, damn, that's a lot of money. Shout out to Vasell. He's from the neighborhood. Yeah, he can play. He can do it all. I think people just weren't familiar with his game. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't for sure. But he can play. He's tough. He can score. He can defend. I love his game. And let's show some love to Keldon Johnson as well. I mean, do we think it's the headband? Because that's a new thing. It might be the headband. That might be what happening. Seven foot, four-ish man that happens to be the difference in a lot of this. He hit a jumper. He played solid D, offensive rebound. He's all over the place. He doesn't seem rattled. Even after the game, Charles Parkley's trying to get him to talk about churros. He's just very calm. What have you seen from him, Lou, in the first week? It's advertised. He's competing at a high level. And that's the only thing you can really ask for from a number one pick in a rookie, just to compete at a high level. Those guys were down big last night, down 20, and they walked that down against Kevin Durant. Everybody's going to say something about that. Big win for those guys. And it's no secret that the Spurs, our class act organization, POP is one of the best coaches that he can possibly be around to be in the beginning stages of his career. So very impressed with his poise and how he's playing. Yeah, he doesn't get rattled. He's fearless. This was just ridiculous when he did. I don't even know how he did that. Also, on this player here at Classic, KD, KD's got to box out. I mean, this is box out 101. You box out, you get the rebound. Again, this game's on ice. The Suns are 3-1. They feel a lot better than they do today. But Wimby, he can do it all. We're going to talk about him throughout the season. But like Lou said, he doesn't get rattled. He's poised. He doesn't force bad shots. He takes what the defense gives him. He's going to have up and down games. He's going to have horrible games. That's all part of his progression. But man, when you see him last night, just kind of come off that in-bounds play, knocked down a jumper at the end of the game. Then to have just even the mindset of crashing the glass there and getting the dunk tip. They don't win this game last night without him. Those are huge plays from a 19-year-old rookie. It's official. He's the real deal, right? He is the real deal. It's happening. And he's only going to get better. I hope he stays healthy. Look, I'm a Spurs fan. And when they were down by 20, I remember going, they're going to have a lot of games like this. They just lost to the Clippers by a bunch. I thought, OK, this is how it's going to work. It's fine. It is what it is. And then this thing happens. There was a moment when KD had a dunk.  And then Wemby just almost returned the favor immediately. I want to show it right now because it's fun and it's pretty. This is oh my god. With the left. And Drew U-Banks on the other side has back. Look, even Shoms. Shoms. You all right, Shoms? That was nasty. Yeah, this was nasty. I mean, there were like three plays, though. It was like KD's jumper from the corner over Wemby.  And then Wemby has this dunk. And then Wemby had like two blocks. Like that he's like literally reaching his arm out. He's like five feet away from the guy. And he blocked shot. Only he can block. Like I think Grayson Island in the first half had KD on the swing open. But Grayson Island decides to shoot. And it wasn't even close. Wemby blocked it pretty easy.  Guys, I can do that. I can go off the dribble like that, two feet, jump from that far. It's just, that is just God given talent. And he just keeps amazing us with different plays. And it's not just offense. Like Sharms said, it's defense. It's common weak side blocking shots. It's staying in front of a guard. He truly can do it all. And to be that versatile at that size, it's unbelievable. It's going to be fun. I don't want to forget about Phoenix Suns here. Because they were without obviously two of their best players. Bradley Beale hasn't played a game yet. Devin Booker out for the third straight game. Sharms, what's the deal? When can we expect to see these guys? I know they play again tomorrow, Spurs Suns. When are they coming back? Yeah, the rematch. I think my sense is Devin Booker is closer along in the return process from his ankle injury than Bradley Beale is with the back. The Suns are looking at maybe Thursday in that game against the Spurs, or Saturday at the 76ers potentially for Devin Booker to make a return. Brad Beale is more of a day to day thing. A guy that he has to keep ramping up with backs are a little bit more tricky than just an ankle. You feel like if you rehab an ankle, you can heal an ankle quicker. A foot ankle is quicker, a little bit easier than a back. With any given day, you could have a different sensation. But I think the Suns are optimistic that if there is no setback with Brad Beale's back, possibly over the next week or so, they do play in Chicago in a week on the eighth. And maybe that could be a game that you have all three back and see if Brad Beale can make his return for. But Booker seems to be closer along than Brad Beale so far. So, I mean, look, it's not a bad thing, right? Times during the season, people are going to be out. It gives everybody else a little bit more time. Maybe they built some confidence. How big is that for the rule players now? Oh, it's huge. You look at guys like Grayson Allen, who's new to this system, who's getting reps that he normally wouldn't get if a Devin Booker or Bradley Beale were in the lineup. Yuda Wannatabi, Eric Gordon, goes on the list. And I see your little plate 17 minutes last night. These are opportunities that these kids aren't going to have throughout the season. So I love that they're getting the experience. It's going to help them later down the stretch in the postseason moving forward. You know guys are going to be in and out of the lineup all season long. But this isn't the Sun's team. This is that we want to see them at full strength. We want to see how they use Devin Booker and Bradley Beale together. Who's going to play point guard? Who's going to get the ball at the end of the game? That's all stuff that we're still waiting to see. And the fact that they could have been three and one right now without that would have been amazing. Again, they're one box out of way and they're sitting pretty instead. They're two and two. And now they're watching film time. Little negative vibes there. Negative vibes. Sad vibes today. You think so? For sure. Do you have any concerns?  No, I don't see anything alarming. It's just details. Like you said, they're one box out of way from being three and one. And that changes this entire conversation. And the same thing when you're in the locker room, you almost win a game. From losing the game, it changes everything and how everybody feels in that locker room. And there's different type of losses, right? This loss, they feel like it got away. That was so slow. This one stings, right?   And then you're watching film. And there's stuff that you can't hide that we're going to see on this film that's just brutal. So this is a team that you should be. Young team is no business being on the floor with you. And they somehow steal the game from you. So this one hurts. I don't know. The last time I saw one actually stolen in the final second. This was totally dramatic. This was stolen. I literally, this game was a blowout. I went to the Clippers Orlando game. That game was a blowout. And then I got the notifications. The only reason I even came back, I thought this game was over. Thank goodness for notifications. Right. I missed the whole thing. We had a playoff rematch on the East Coast, little Knicks-Cabs action. Yeah, Knicks, no issues here. They dominated 109, 91. Julius Randall finished with 19 and 10. Brunson with 19. Mitchell had 26 in this one. I like when this sort of happens. It feels like one team has another team's number. Does it feel like that for you guys with the Knicks and Cabs? I mean, it looks like it. Four straight wins by 14 plus points. I think it's just a matchup problem. And the Knicks know that, and they play to those advantages. Yeah, obviously, last year with the Cabs having the home court advantage, them having the early exit to the Knicks, this is kind of becoming some sort of rivalry where it feels like the big brother, and you just can't beat him, right? But let's not get it twisted. This isn't the Cleveland Cavaliers team either. They're missing Jared Allen. They're missing Keras Levert. They're missing Darius Garland. They got Ricky Rubio, Ty Jerome. They are not their full team right now. So on that aspect of it, I'm not worried. I don't feel bad. This is, again, I think they're one in three now. It's not the start they want after getting home court advantage last year, but I love the Cabs. This is a team that is young. They're growing together. They're getting that valuable experience last year in the playoffs I think is going to pay off. And once they fully get healthy, I fully expect them to kind of make a run and kind of get up in that upper echelon of the Eastern Conference. Oh, is that right? You're like, I don't know. I guess we'll fight about that at some point later on in the season. Do you guys remember a team in your careers that you just, even though you were on the better team, you just couldn't get rid of them? Dallas for me. Really? Dallas is late in my career. We couldn't, Luca just had our number. He always played well against us. I thought you meant when I was younger. Eastern Conference wise, I think it took me about five years to get a win in Detroit. Detroit, that's a good one. That's a different one. It took me about five years to get a win in Detroit. See, I don't know if it was, I had players. Like I had Rudy Gay, Wilson Chandler, and Danny Granger. Any time I lined up again, those guys were good. They were scores. Quick 30 on Parsons easily. They had my number. I would call Switch. It's just those three? Those three guys would cook me every single time. As far as teams, the Spurs always used to give a trouble, but they were really good. They gave everybody trouble. Wait, when you were with? Kind of all over. When I was with the Rockets, when I was with Dallas, they were, those were kind of the in-state rival, but they were so good. Yeah, it's a good time. There's more arenas than teams. Yes. Really? Yeah, like some arenas, you just, it's just a hard place to win. So what does that do to you mentally when you're going, you're like, OK, we have a road trip. We're going to this arena. We never win here. Does it change anything? Do you think this is the time this we're going to change?   So it just makes you play hard. He's got a good, with arenas, after Damien Lillard hit that game winner on me in Portland, I hated going there. It was like, I was uncomfortable. It gave me the heebie-jeebies every time I'd walk in that arena just because something so bad happened to me. Traumatic. And that place, again, you know, certain places are just rock. Like OKC in the playoffs is rocking. Boston, Portland, these places are insane during the playoffs. There's a whole different element of atmosphere. The garden in the playoffs. That's a good one. Amazing. You should always be like that, I think. People are, it's already starting. The speculation about Donovan Mitchell asking for a trade before this season is even over is, it's up, it's kicking. Stop. Is this, I don't know if it's coming from Nick's fans. I don't know if it's coming from his specific fans. But what do you make of any of that? Can we stop, like, the trade culture? We can't. We can't. That's why I can't wait for the deadline, just as soon as it's over with. Let's do it now. Let's talk about basketball and existing teams. Any time a star player hits some adversity, the fans, the media, everybody's talking about trade. Well, in our defense, Lou, it does happen. Like, it does seem to happen. Somebody has to lose. Fair. Only one team can win. Somebody has to lose. I think we're just getting into a soft culture of guys, just as soon as they hit a little bump in the road, we're on to the next thing. And let's see what else is out there, man. Look, take your lumps and get better. And that's not a shot at Donovan Mitchell. You know, I'm just, in general, that just becomes the narrative every time that something is not going away for a team or a player. It is true. Like, and we don't even know if Donovan Mitchell's is asking for lines out. I'm assuming he doesn't. He's got a great team that he's going to grow with, like, Mowbly and Garland. These guys are all, I think it's a perfect situation. You just said it. They're not healthy. Yeah, they're not healthy. This is not even a team out. But it is true.  Not like it. Coach doesn't like me transfer to Duke. Duke, ah, then I didn't. I got recruited over. There's no accountability anymore. And now when you have a star player like this, you can just ask for a trade when you don't like the coach, or you don't like the offense, or you're not good vibing with this player. So there is a level of concern where you can just ask out now, or you can demand a trade. So that is difficult. But with the Cavs, I don't think so. I think JB Bickerstaff is one of the best coaches in the league. They have a coach, JJ Outlaw, who's great with developing these guys. And you can see these guards, they keep getting better every single year. Why on earth would he want to go out besides living in Cleveland? There it is. I just wanted to see if you threw that one in there at the end. Well done. Look, it's always going to follow him because it was, is he going to be a nick? He's going to be a nick, and then he wasn't. They could have gotten him last year. But here we are, Shoms. And you're the guy with all the backstage information. What's the deal? Should we stop talking about this, or is there legitimacy to it? The only reason this is a topic is because Diamond Mitchell didn't extend his contract. He was eligible for a three-year, $145 million extension. He decided not to do it. And I think a lot of that is just business sense, right? Next summer, he's eligible for a four-year, $200 million plus contract extension in the off-season. And so that will be the truest test for Diamond Mitchell, for the Cavaliers. I think the cap, they want to get a second post-season in with Diamond Mitchell, like Chandler just spoke about. Like they have multiple guys right now out of the lineup. Darius Garland, Jared Allen, Karris Levert. You want to get your team healthy. You want to see how you can build. You want to see how, like Lou said, when guys have lumps, when teams have adversity, you want to build through that. And we haven't even seen this team have two playoff runs in with this group together. So I think right now, Diamond Mitchell is only focused on the season, only focused on winning. He had a team minicamp that he organized before training camp, even started weeks before training camp, started in his hometown in Connecticut. And it was a week-long minicamp for the entire roster. Like that's not a guy to me that is just one foot in, one foot out. I think Diamond Mitchell is fully invested. And then the Cavaliers don't matter. You know Cleveland's back. You know Cleveland's back. You're going to Connecticut. Geography, slander going on. Well, just to put that in perspective, you're celebrating his birthday. We're getting his minicamp in Miami, there, Bahamas, L.A., the Hamptons, San Diego. Connecticut's very close to New York, though, Sean. Connecticut. We can keep the conspiracy theories. Come on, come on, San, anywhere besides Cleveland. Come on, D-Bitch. You got to do better than that. All right, my bad, Sean. One day we're just going to do an hour of cities we hate. And it's going to be good television. I promise you that. Sean will lead that show for sure. No problem, Sean.  I got it. OK, there was another West Coast game last night. The Orlando Magic. I mean, they've been in L.A. for like three weeks now, it feels like, but it didn't matter. They got crushed. Harden was in the building. This one finished with 118, 102 score. Paul George, 27, 7, 7. I mean, it's Russell Westbrook, 18, 6, and 7. Man, Bankero, so close to mine. 15 points for rebounds, four assists, four steals. That's fun. Shoms, Clippers are playing some pretty decent basketball right now, so, you know, the selling point to bring Harden in exactly was what? It's to be their point guard. And that's why they've targeted him. They've needed a point guard for the last several years. They went after a guy like Kyle Lowry, Malcolm Brogdon. They've over the years, they've targeted finding a point guard to put next to Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. And they really believe if you have Kawhi Leonard, Paul George healthy with James Harden at the one that this team can win a championship. And so they've already been speaking. I'm told James Harden has had conversations with Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Russell Westbrook. We know there was video about those two.  They've been trying to find this type of ball handler. And James Harden is going into this where he's likely looking at being the third best player, right? When you have Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, they've been there since 2019. It's really their franchise. So any given night, he could also be number one, he could be number two, but he's going in this trying to facilitate, trying to make their lives easier. And I will also say, throughout this whole process, James Harden is sitting pretty, he got to the exact destination he wanted to get to. He didn't lose a single dollar, a single penny from his entire protest or whatever that was in Philadelphia. And so now he's going into this, I think winning has to be the only thing on his mind and he gives them the pure point guard, I think that they've wanted. Master lesson, he crushed it. I'll say this, the only pressure he has now too is we're all talking about, the Clippers look so good now, right? Like it's early, they're only two and one, but this kind of has the built-in excuse now. If it does go south, it's on him. It's on him. Why do we make this trade? We were going good. Russ is being Russ again. Paul George, I'll tell you, Paul George last night was really the first time I really watched him like get in his Indiana Pacer bag. He's back healthy. Man, he looks like the Paul George of back in the day where he is in shape, he's physical, he's bouncy, he's getting to a step back off the dribble. He looks unbelievable. So if I'm the Clippers, yeah, I don't want to do anything that's going to disrupt that. This offense looks great. You're getting contributions from everybody. You see, Plumlee was in double digits. Norman Powell's come off the bench with 17. Bones Highland looked good. So you're getting contributions. You have a balanced offense, you have a balanced attack. Wow. Why switch anything? So that's the only confusion for me. But also listen, James Harden is James Harden. He's a great playmaker. He's a great scorer. He's used to playing with other guys. He just played with Joellen B, who was the MVP. So he knows how to play with good players. He knows how to facilitate and get guys in their spots. And he knows how to score when he needs to go score. So hopefully it's a good fit and hopefully it works out. It's just the timing of it's a little interesting when you see the Clippers playing so well right now. Yeah, there's so few games into the season already, but we saw some rust there. He's been looking like he's having a blast. We don't know yet what the game plan is. I think all of us are just assuming he's going to come off the bench. So, Lou. I don't think so. Yeah, you don't think so. All right, let's do it. I don't think he should. I don't think he should. Why should he be the odd man out? I agree with you, but then who? It's him. It's... Do we know when he's playing? Do we know when James comes? Probably tonight. Yeah, we're talking about next. It should be tonight. Who do they play? I think the Lakers tonight, right? I think Lakers tonight, but I think it's a road trip. I think he waits till then. That's my guess. Well, Shoms will know more. We're just guessing. Why do we ask Shoms? We got the guy that knows the road. No, we're just gonna guess first and then come back. So if not all kidding aside, if it's not him, if it's not Westbrook coming off the bench, then what do you do? I don't know. I really don't have the answer to that. I don't think he should come off the bench. I think he's off to a great start. This team is off to a great start. Look, you're gonna insert James Harden into that lineup and take Robert Covington's place. And you don't disrupt anything. I feel like Robert hadn't been playing. You could say it. Zero points or so. Just wasn't getting it done. Fair enough. And so if you insert James Harden into that spot, I don't think you make a lot of adjustments. I think it works on paper with James because Paul George and Kawhi Leonard both play defense, right? And they're both people of guard and the other offensive player. And it works with Russ because he can, again, spearhead that second unit, him, Norm Powell. You're still gonna have one of those three guys, James, Paul or Kawhi, in that rotation too with the second string. And who knows, it's got to, whoever it is, they just have to accept it. And we're surely gonna see if they're about winning because if this is what Tyron Liu and the Clippers think is the best chance to win them a championship, then they gotta buy in and do it. But it's gonna hurt. And if I'm Russ, I'm gonna be annoyed if it's me. If I'm James, I don't think he's gonna do it. I think it's gonna hurt. I mean, they're both former MVPs. Why are we only saying Russ? I agree. Wait, is it a conversation? Because like we saw all this with Chris Paul and Steve Kerb off-season. Is it an actual conversation where they bring you in and it's like man-to-man? This is what we're thinking about doing. Or is it as simple as you show up for the game? That's a conversation. That's a whole thing. With Russ, that's a conversation. And look, they could also go all four of them with the big fella. That's also possible. If you don't want to ruffle any feathers. That's how they're gonna, the first game that they played together. I like this. It will be all four of them. Is he gonna put Kawaii RPG at the four? I like that. I'm going for it. Yes, we're also in the sports entertainment business. All four of them will be in the start. You want to keep all them happy? That's the easiest, that's the, and let it not work. Then you can have that conversation with somebody. Hey, we're going to change. Let them lose two, three in a row. Then you can kind of go down that alley. Well, we're not, it's not, we're not being dramatic. Like all eyes were on those two guys specifically last night pre-game. James Harden shows up with PJ Tucker, Lawrence Frank, Steve Bomber. They're all there to greet him. And then- They haven't even talked about PJ Tucker. I know we haven't. I feel kind of bad, but this is the, you know, this is the big meeting. Look, he's so happy to see this guy. I love that. And me and Lou talked about this before. We think that James Saul Tarrant's man before this interaction. I think they definitely spoke before. I mean, Norman Palestine right there as well. He's not getting up. So I think he had already had his grievance with this guy. And no matter who it is, you're going to get up, you're going to say what up, you're going to hug. But no doubt he saw him in the training room or on the course somewhere. This is not the first time. That video going viral. It's like, I think the only reason we have a video is because that's the first time he saw Russ. Yeah. And we love drama. I don't know what we thought was going to happen. Like fighting. I have no idea. So happy to see you. We're going to take a quick break here. When we come back, we've made our guesses. And then we will actually go to Shoms to find out when James Harden might actually play for the Clippers and run it back returns. Run it all, run it back, yeah, yeah.  Well, Shoms, you heard our very educated takes of when we think James Harden may or may not show up in a Clippers uniform. Are we going to see him tonight against the Lakers? James Harden will not be playing tonight. I'm told the plan is for him to get practice over the next few days, get some reps in with the team. And then the target is as soon as Monday's game at the Garden against the Knicks, I think that's the likeliest possibility, the soonest that he could make his debut for the Clippers along with Kawhi Leonard, along with Paul George. So the plan is to get him ramped up. I think he has been working out individually. He's been doing a lot on his own away from the Sixers for the last several weeks. We know he's only gone through one five on five scrimmage in the last month. That came out all the way on October 7th. So there's still time over the next few days for him to get some competitive runs in with us, two on two, three on three, before possibly debuting Monday on their road trip. Well, that's a nice quiet place, Madison Square Garden, to make your debut after a long, weird off season. Do we like that? That's a good plan. I mean, yeah, there's no bigger place, there's no greater stage than MSG. So it makes perfect sense. And I can't wait, again, we talked about it, but I just can't wait to see the rotations. I really can't wait to see the starting lineup. I can't wait to see everything that goes in, same with the Suns. When they are fully loaded, this team can be very, very dangerous. And again, it could pan out like the Mavs last year when the big trade with Kyrie, and it just was a dumpster fire. That could also happen. So who knows? We have no idea, but it's definitely exciting, it's drama, and why not make your debut at MSG? I would have loved to see it tonight, though. You know what I mean? I know. I would have liked to just be done with it and see it. I don't even know, like if I knew the answer to this, I'd be very, very wealthy. But if you could predict James Harden's long-term future here, what are you going with? Yeah, I think what's interesting here, Michelle, a couple of years ago when the Sixers traded for James Harden, they gave out multiple picks. I believe it was two first round picks, a second round pick, we know they also gave out Ben Simmons to go get James Harden, and they did not get a long-term deal then. But I think this time around, James Harden gets traded for two first round picks, two second round picks, one swap. In the totality of things, that's a lot of assets to give up for just a rental. And I think as long as everything goes according to plan, these guys stay healthy. The Clippers want this core three of Harden, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, they want to build around those three guys, especially going into a new arena, going into the next few years of trying to compete in the Western Conference. You want to keep that group together. And when you give up that type of asset pool with multiple firsts, multiple seconds, a swap, that's a lot not to get a long-term deal done. So I do believe going into this, the Clippers have a long-term vision with James Harden. Y'all think that's the plan? I think so. The building, the new building. It's a very good trio that are all in their prime, and they all are just focused on winning, right? Besides Kawhi, these guys have been playing for a really long time. I saw a stat yesterday between Russ and PG and James. These are some of the longest centered guys that have played the most games without a championship. And it could very well be their last hurrah on a really good team where they're all capable of going and being that guy on any given night. So I do like it. I think it could really, really work. And again, with the new buzz of the arena, with the Clippers being the little brother of the Lakers, this kind of gives them positive energy and hopes to kind of take that next step and be a real contender. I did see a tweet. I think Brad Williams has headed out. This is your finals champions of 2014. I didn't see that, no. It felt like we were sort of recycling, but it also feels weird to say that about this type of talent. Is there a little bit of that though? I mean, I find myself going, do they still have it as a group? Can they do it together? I mean, watching Paul George last night, he's got it. Like he is back. Kawhi, again, he also looks healthy. And that's been the main concern for these two guys in particular. It's all about health. Now, James, it's almost, it's a fresh start. You're home, you're from LA. You got your guys, you've played with Russ before. You're from, you're cool with these guys off the court. You got what you wanted. Now it's time to produce. And I think he's got the roster to do that. All right, we're going to sit back and get comfortable for this next one. Lou and I especially, because whatever. Shoms, the end season tournament starts Saturday. Break it down for us. Tell us exactly how this thing is going to work. Yeah, I'm going to go big picture. Okay. These are really regular season games that have a little bit more incentive. They're going to be played with different courts. New, so I mean, I'm sure we, maybe we have pictures of all the courts. I mean, these courts are summer wild, summer interesting, summer fun, but definitely unique. And so new courts, and there will be a $500,000 award for every player on the championship team. There's going to be the final four in Vegas on December 9th, I believe is when it starts. So this is something that's going to go on over the next month of the season. And this is a new initiative for the NBA. They want these regular season games. So they're not adding new games. It's really just regular season games, national TV games. They're getting more hype, more energy, different courts, different energy around it. And I think they want to have a different level of severity around these games. They want to hype these games up and make these games more meaningful at a point in the calendar before Christmas when there's not as much to look forward to, maybe on a night to night basis. But what I will say, for Godzak Steph Curry, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, I don't know how impactful playing for an in-season championship is, but I think for this new group of star players, when you think about Godzak Trey Young, Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Devin Booker, Luca Danci, Jalen Brunson, like this adds a different part of a legacy potentially to try to go win, to try to be the first or the back-to-back in-season tournament champion. We know the ACEs, they just won the in-season tournament and the WMEA championship a couple years ago. So I think there is some positives to that. So for the next month, the games that were on the schedule are the games that are on the schedule. They just carry a little more weight and slowly they whittle that down to the last four that then go to Vegas. Is that right? So you could win the in-season tournament but not make the playoffs. Right. Right. It's a separate gig. It's a gimmicky to me. I'm just gonna say it first. Yeah, it's a gimmick to me. But could it be a fun gimmick? Just like Shum's mentioned, the WMEA has been doing it for the last couple of seasons and the Liberty has won the in-season tournament and the ACEs won the championship. And I don't think we really care. I'll say this. As a player, you're hyped for the beginning of the season. You're hyped from October to November. It's fresh.  You're trying to prove and get the rotations down.  Well, you're just looking forward to all-star weekend. You're looking forward to that break. And then post-all-star break, there's the playoff run where that's like the most critical part of the season. So I get it. This kind of gives that timeframe of the schedule more interest. But again, when you got guys now making $40, $50 million, no offense, they don't care about the $500,000. Now the lower paid guys, this is huge. You could be a 9th, 10th, 11th man not play and get a half a million dollars for winning this in-season tournament. It's great. And I will say I didn't like the play-in when I first heard about it. I thought the play-in was silly and I'm still not fully sold. But at least I understand it now and it gives teams more of an opportunity. It gives teams a different situation, a different look where guys can play. And so this could be similar to that, but... I'm confused about the Vegas part. Is there gonna be an in-season tournament MVP?  I would think, but I don't get like, so you play these games, boom, boom, boom, you get down to the four. Are those additional games? And how does that work into the schedule that already exists? You play as an extra two games or something like that? So extra two. And trust me, the players aren't excited about playing any extra basketball. Even in Vegas, they don't want to know. I can't wait till the team is in the championship and then they don't play their star. They load manage during the in-season final four. Is that what we're calling it? I guess so. I don't love it, but we'll see. I feel like it's like we need to see this first. I'm all for innovation. I'm all for trying to change the game, but in-season tournament, play-ins, like we got to get back to the basics a little bit. Sean, does that show, so the winner of this tournament will play 84 games? That's correct. I think it's 83. So they're gonna play one game for the next game, okay. And that's 500. Yeah, I think it'll be one extra game for the winner. That's interesting. I think it's, I think I'm gonna reserve judgment until I see it. I don't know if it's incentive enough. Get back to me in December. The reality is the season is long, players get tired. You're traveling, you're in Minnesota and it's 10 inches of snow on the ground. You leave in Minnesota, you're going to Salt Lake City. I don't think this changes anything as far as the players' mentality. I guess they're thinking the fans will think that the guys are gonna play harder and it's gonna mean more. So it kind of makes that more- And they're fresh because it's the beginning of the season. I don't know. Sean, get back to us on like December 6th and then we'll have our final judgment on if we luck it or not. We will talk to you bright and early tomorrow, sir. Thank you, Sean. I think, oh, that was nice. That was so nice. Fitterbrick Halloween edition. There were some good ones. There were some great ones, obviously. I mean, this is fire. This is good. Perfection. You think he knew who Slenderman was? Or do you think somebody's like you have to do something? I think someone, the guy doesn't know what churros are yet still in the same time, yeah. Okay, but that's like a food thing. That's someone tipsy at all. By the way, Charles Barkley calling a churro a long donut is really not accurate at all. What'd you call it? A cinnamon stick? Yeah, like a cinnamon astree. This is good though. By the way, taking off the mask, you can wear this tonight. It's a fire suit. That's perfect. Oh, this is great. That's actually terrifying. Okay, we still don't know so far. Yeah. These are two fits. I can't believe Steve Kerr did this. Wait, what? Wait, that's Steve Kerr? Oh, that's Steve Kerr on the right? Yeah. I thought it was just some fan. No, that's Steve Kerr. Oh, yeah. Wait, that's Steve Kerr. Is that Steve Kerr? Yeah, it's Steve Kerr. That's Kevin Herter. You think Kevin Herter was like, why me? Like what? I'm thinking why him. So yeah, he must be thinking it. The only white guy on the Kings are like, you know what, I got him you. Look, fine. Oh, that's pretty good. But you know what? That's cheating. You brought in a Hollywood makeup person. Yeah, he spent real money. He spent $5,000 on this. Beetlejuice. It's fire though, you know it. It's probably, it's a perfect costume. It's very, very good. Yeah, it is literally out of the movie. You cannot beat that. Deandre Jordan as Taylor Swift. I mean, it's funny. That's better than most. It's relevant. And it's also the way, if you're gonna do the, if you're gonna do the easy, lazy one, do it funny. It's a stinker. He did put lipstick on and I give him extra points for that. That's a stinker. It ain't it. You don't like it? It ain't it. Lou's not feeling it. Okay, fine then. You knew it was coming. Someone was gonna do it. Yeah, but I was good. Deandre Jordan. It's good when it's funny. Yeah, yeah. Lou, you're up next. What do you got? Let me see if it's, we'll judge you now harshly. No, that's not. Wait, when was that? I don't know. You look mean. Wait, are you the mean guy from Karate? This is at like a party. I didn't walk into the arena with this. Well, you put it on the internet. It's already called. Who are you calling for here, bro? I think I was just a dope skeleton. Skeleton, yeah. Skeletons running. Not really sure. Dope skeleton. You know I'm sweating. You know I stay sweating. We're always sweating. Yeah, come on. It's not nothing. Lou, now you're up. Let me see. Oh, that's good. So who did your makeup? Yeah, I see you went all out here. Oh yeah, this is for, this is for my birthday party. That's really good makeup, dude. I always throw big parties for my birthday, so this is for my birthday a couple years ago. See, you put, yeah, but you didn't do it this time. Yeah, you did. Oh, you weren't there.  That'll hurt somebody else's feelings, but I'm a hermit. That's right, you weren't there, it's crazy. It was awesome. You can't hurt me at all. Oh, I got another one. I know I did it. Oh, yeah, that's pretty good, too. Wow. I don't even think that was for Halloween. Yeah. Be honest with you. It's like a night in West Hollywood. I really don't, I think that was, that was, let's say how. What's his name? Jean Simmons? Yeah. I said that right, right? My tongue is one third of his, that's not even fair to pretend. I like that. You know what's a really good goal is to get a Shoms photo in a costume. Good luck. That's our goal in life. We'll get it. Shoms should be a tech spree. Yeah. Coming up next, the latest edition of You Buying That. And we got a new duo in the NBA. When Run It Back returns. Run it up. Run it back. Run it up. Run it back. All the land. I will never, ever, ever stop loving that with all my heart. Now, we play that because Flavor Flav says that since the anthem that he did before the Bucks game, he's received offers to sing the national anthem from two other teams. Chandler, you buying that? I'm buying it because it's a weird lie, right? It's a weird lie. And it is very entertaining. I think he can just start booking bar mitzvahs and birthdays. I think this should be his calling where he can do this because it's obviously horrendous. Excuse me? But it is pure comedy and I loved it. Remember the Fergie a couple years ago? That was comedy. That was an insult and an amazement. I don't think he thinks it's called, I think he was really trying, which makes me love it even more. Right. Listen, I'm buying it in a world of virality. Everybody's trying to go viral. I think teams are trying to jump on that boat and get some social media love. I'm buying it. It's great for Klicks. Definitely buying it. I'm shocked it's not more than two teams. I want him on like the voice and see if they turn around. I want him so fast. Yeah, I want to take the next step. The next step is the voice. Oh, I'm thinking of the mask. Oh, I love it so much. I hope it's a team near us. I would like to see that live and in person. Moving on, Willie Green, you know, of the Pelicans. Sometimes you got to remind people. Says that Zion and Brandon Ingram are the best duo in the NBA, Lou. You buying that? He ain't say that. I ain't buying that. Well, I didn't make it up. I ain't buying that. I really, really, really like that duo. But until further notice, as long as Yoko and Murray are on the same team. They're breathing. That is the best duo in the NBA so far. And Kairi and Luca, and Devon and KD, and there's probably three or four. Paul, George, and Kawai. The duo for them to be the best duo. Gibby and Bede and Maxie over this duo. Like, what do we do? And I agree, he's been still in confidence in them, but they still have a lot to prove. They haven't won yet. Zion hasn't been healthy enough. I love what he's doing as a player. Man, I'm rolling with him even more after saying this, but I ain't buying that. I wonder if he was asked it specifically or if he offered it. He just came out swinging and saying that. I've got something I'd like to share. Yeah, because those are two different messages. I mean, if he was asked that, then you have to say that. I'm going to take him and Brown.  We need to see more of Zion before we do that. We'd love to see more of Zion. We do want to see that, actually. I agree with that. All right, this next one's good. I'm going to read it because it's a direct quote. Chandler, Jimmy Butler recently said, nobody's going to pick us this year. No one's ever going to pick any team that I'm on, which is great, because I don't give enough. And I don't like none of y'all anyways. Are you buying that he doesn't care? That he, oh no, he cares. Yeah, he cares. He cares, and no one's picking them just because a lot of other teams made moves and the heat didn't. And the heat lost two critical guys and Gabe Vincent and Max Drews. That's the, and, but this, yeah, this sounds like almost a little bit of a pity party. This sounds like, it's like, if you didn't care, you wouldn't say this quote, you know what I mean? So I'm not buying it. You definitely care. You should care, but you definitely care. He cares, right, Louis? It's a lot of caring. It's a lot of caring going on. It's too much caring. Yeah, he must care. That's a lot of words if you don't care. I got another quote for Lou, P.J. Tucker. He thinks the G-League is quote, the dumbest thing ever, unquote. You buying that? I would like a sample first, because I'm torn. Okay. I'm torn from where it started to where it is. I think they're far off the mission statement, you know? Really? Yeah, I think it began as a real effort to develop young players. Now I feel like it's a graveyard for former players that just want to hoop, that want to find somewhere competitive to play and quite possibly get back into NBA. And then when it comes to the young guys, I feel like it's just a necessary stop for them to get to the big stage because those are the rules.   And so I'm torn. I love the idea of the G-League, but like Lou said, if I'm a young player and I'm a first-run draft pick, it's almost a bad thing, right? I'm almost embarrassed to go down to the G-League and have to play. And it's almost like it's an insult if you get sent down there. Again, I like the development of it. I love the affiliation to the teams and how close they are. And they almost run the same offense. So you can kind of just plug and play a guy in there. But the salaries are offensive. The schedule and the travel is offensive. Like, so it's- The cities, you know, we have a thing with cities. My God, I don't even know where half of them are. They're just words on them. I know Austin. That's a good one. Yeah, there's a couple of good ones, I guess, but like, yeah, they don't make it. Like, I would rather go play on Real Madrid for three million euros than go to Delaware and play on some G-League team. Three million euros, that's a nice touch. Yeah, I mean- Classy. So I get what he's saying by that, but also there are some good pros to development, to being in your system, to having your coach, your front office, watch you every single game and, you know, kind of just- Like, you're on the radar.  That's the reason they have the whole infrastructure of the league, but I agree, it is kind of a, you know, it's a Debbie Downer. If I got the call that I was going to the G-League, I would- I just wouldn't tell- I wouldn't tell people. It's a negative thing to go down there. And so which hopefully- Some guys just aren't good enough. Yeah. And that's okay to not be good enough. So we don't need a subsidiary for them to feel like they're almost there. They're almost like a participation. Participation, that's part of the game. It's like the MLB, there's so many different weeks. Yeah, yeah. At least there's just one league for this, right? The AAA, double-A's, you know what I mean? The feeder, yeah. That's too much. Paul Pierce said some stuff. Said that the new generation of players heals slower than we did. Jailer? That's medicine. You buying it? See Neil Elitrash all of a sudden? Come on, Pee. No, I'm not buying that. You got wheeled out to go take a dump, Pee. No, do you?  No, I'm not buying it. Listen, injuries are injuries. That's just medical science. Science? This doesn't make much sense. I agree that the older guys, they think the new age guys are softer on this whole load management thing, but the idea of our bodies, I think it's the opposite. We have so many resources now to help us heal quicker and sooner. And you get to heal better now because they fix things quicker. Yeah, you could have a surgery and come back stronger. Now you had the same surgery back in the day. Your career's over. Look at this finger. Does that look like it healed right? Oh dear. We've heard so many stories of older players like- They put that thing. We've heard so many stories about older players saying, well, the team rushed me back because they didn't have the science and they didn't have the technology. Yeah, they didn't have PRP. They didn't have any of this advanced cutting-edge stuff that we have, so no, I'm not buying it. We actually- That's a great quote. I didn't heal ever, but these two guys, they heal quicker. Still trying to heal now. Yeah, still not healed. This next one, I feel this one in my bones. Joel and B was buying 35 grand for his, boom, degeneration X celebration. I loved it. It totally worked it, right guys? You can tell Lucian, you can tell Lucian just seeing that for the first time right now. Hey man, hey, money well spent, Joel. I love it.  Was that a home game? I think it, wait, was that a home game? Run it back. Wasn't it? I think it was a home game. Who's that too? There it was, there we go. Oh no. Yes, that's him Philly. He's full on Triple H heartbreak. There's his X pot. He did this last year too, right, but they didn't hit him with the fire. I am buying, this is money well spent. Wait, so Triple H did reach out, right? Yeah, there it is. There it is. I don't know if I can do that all day. Joel transforming into this Logan Paul WWE star would be something after this. My goodness. Hey listen, he just listened. So am I buying? Yes. He spent 35K and just got invited to WrestleMania and Philly and I guarantee you they will pay for his present. Yeah, this is done. Yes. Brilliant move. Well done, Joel. Well, well done. Taking a break when we come back, we got some pics, some things, some stuff to make you richer when Run It Back returns.  Run it back to the future. Time to predict what's gonna happen. So you guys both, before the season started, a long, long time ago, picked Tatum as your MVPs. Mm-hmm. Some of the other guys who have a chance at this. And now when we look at this, just know that Tatum, Yolkich and Donchich are not on it. They are the top three favorites with odds. But this is the remaining. What do you have, SGA-wise? You do love him, Lil. I do. And I'm a double down on it. For him to be the MVP, I think he has to will that team to be in a fully loaded West, a top three team. And average between, and I say 27 and 30, that puts him in the conversation. Okay, wow. That's a hard list. Anthony Davis is down there. I mean, it would be a nice payout. Honestly, with those odds, I love the Anthony Davis pick. I think the Lakers have a solid team this year. I think if they stay healthy, they can be in that home court advantage type scenario where they can be playing longer in the season. And again, I never understand what the voting is. Is it individual stats? Is it because the team, it feels like it switches every single year. But I like Anthony Davis because again, he's gonna put up good numbers. The media is gonna be on his head all year long. He's gonna continue to have to prove them wrong. And the Lakers are going to win a lot of games. So I love, but those odds plus 3,100. Right. I love Anthony Davis. Almost worth just doing that. Just throw a little some on it. Just like a couple of bucks on that. Anybody else on there you think maybe just might shock the world? Yeah, Devin Booker's a good one. Kevin Durant's a good one. I wanna see him play. Oh, there's a runner on there for a reason. I don't think, I think Joelle, I don't see the back to back happening for the big cat. No, if anything, they do yo-kits again just to sort of, it's just gonna go back and forth from them. Man, we got through a show guys. One more left in the week. John Wall joins us tomorrow on the show.  All the way. There you go. What he said. That's gonna do it for us. We will be back bright and early tomorrow. Enjoy your Wednesdays and some baseball tonight.  They run it back, yuh, yuh.  She knowin' all over.


Welcome to the final video of our suite of eight mini videos to support you through the data requirements needed to run the local housing market assessment tool, referred to as LHMA in this video. Please use these as reference resources prior to and as you populate the LHMA tool. You will need to have populated your housing market areas as shown in video one before starting this task. This video focuses on the sheet named existing stock and planned supply in section two of the tool. You will need to provide your current stock together with your best estimate of the planned supply over the first five years of the LHMA period. The tool will average the data over the five years to estimate an annual stock figure. These figures will be deducted from the social rent and intermediate housing need to provide the end of supply or oversupply within each housing market area for your local authority. You will need to populate table 12 with the current stock and planned supply, the social rent, intermediate rent and low cost home ownership. For all 10 years within affordable housing you need to consider the committed supply, expected relets and any planned removals over the first five years of the LHMA period. You will need to provide this data by housing market area. For social rented 10 year only you also need to provide by the number of bedrooms. You will need to provide this data by housing market area. For social rented 10 year only you also need to provide this data by the number of bedrooms. That will be built or acquired over the first five years of the LHMA period. Developments should only be included. If one, they funded through capital grant via the main programme development plan for social housing grant. Two, they are in a local authority or registered social landlords own development programme funded without capital grant with planning permission or reserve matters permission has been granted. And three, they are secured by a section 106 agreement, planning condition or other appropriate mechanism where a full planning permission or reserve matters permission has been granted. Or the build will start on site or will be completed within the LHMA period. You will need to estimate the expected relets or turnover. This includes the number of relets a local authority or registered social landlord would expect in any one year and is based on the average of the last three years data. You will also need to include planned removals. This would cover for example any stock which will be demolished. When complete, you can tick the appropriate box on the front page of section 2 and this concludes the requirements for the current stock and plan supply data requirements. For further information, you can consult the LHMA guidance or email Welsh Government at afdl-lhma.wales. This video completes the suite of eight mini videos to support you through the required data inputs to run the LHMA tool. We would welcome your feedback and ideas for any future developments on the online trainer materials via the LHMA mailbox.


This is stock number 7J346B. We are here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. You're new and used SUV and crossover headquarters. Today we are checking out this super clean 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport. This vehicle has a 2.4 liter four cylinder motor which pumps out 190 horsepower. From this HD video you will be able to tell that this Santa Fe is in excellent condition and is fully loaded. It has a projector lamp headlamps. Cabo bronze is the color. Very good looking color. And the driver's side rim is in absolutely perfect condition. No scuffs or scrapes. It has Firestone destination 65R17s, 235 65R17s. And they have just about, I'd say 80% of the tread left. Lots of tread left on these tires. That rim is absolutely perfect. We shoot all of our videos in 1080p so if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, or smartphone device, turn them on right now because it is like you're right here looking at the vehicle with me. That hood is in very nice clean condition. Passenger side is very clean as well. And we take the HD video so if you are far away or even if you're close by and just can't make the trip down, you can still see the vehicle, hear the vehicle and have confidence in what you're looking at before you even get here. So you can see that that rim has no scuffs or scrapes. And as you go down this side of the vehicle, you can see just how clean that body is, how reflective and glass like that paint is. Something you just cannot get with pictures. But that's why we do it. So you can get the most accurate representation of the vehicle as possible. So that when you get here, there's absolutely no surprises. Up on the top here, we have the glass roof, which we'll check out once we get inside. But down this side, very, very clean. We want to make sure you get the most accurate representation because the last thing we want is you to get here and have the vehicle not represented in the right way. Back tires have just as much tread as those front tires. Only thing I know is one tiny little ding above that wheel well. Nothing major though. As we go around to the back, you can really see that Cabo bronze in the sunlight. It's got some really nice metal flake. And if you have HD capabilities on right now, you can see that metal flake in the video. For the most part on the rear bumper, pretty clean. A couple little scuffs and scrapes, but nothing major. It has the towing package with the receiver hitch and wiring and the chrome tipped exhaust. Back storage area is very clean. No rips or tears in that carpeting. It does have the dimension audio with the factory subwoofer. It has these latches, which those seats will go down when you pull them. Which we'll check out in a little bit. And very clean back here. Under the storage area, you have your jack tools and another little storage bin. Rear gate shuts nice and solidly. And as we go down this side of the vehicle, just as clean as that passenger side. Once again, notice just how clean that body is. How mirror-like and glass-like that paint is. Very, very nicely maintained vehicle for full disclosure. This back rim is in excellent shape as well. Inside the sport package has just about every option that you can get. Including dual power heated seats. Tan leather interior, no rips or tears on these seats. Has lumbar support as well. Factory floor mats throughout. The dimension audio which I mentioned. Power windows and power locks and power mirrors. You have an eco active drive mode. You also have heated steering wheel, downhill assist control and stability control. As we hop inside the car here, you can see it has 67,371 miles. Little information center there as well as well as the outside temperature display. Has multifunction steering wheel with bluetooth audio controls and information center controls. Cruise controls on this side and this button right here is your steering mode. So you can select comfort, normal and sport mode. Kind of cool there. Has the factory navigation system and the touch screen radio. Power windows power, I'm sorry, dual climate control. You have your front and rear defrost right there. This is also where your backup camera shows up. Like I said it does have bluetooth audio controls and it does have serious satellite radio capabilities. Up here you have your blue link system as well as an SOS system and your home link buttons. Also have a compass display up on the mirror. So it has the Vista dual pane glass roof with the power sun roof. Pastner side floor mat is very clean. No rips or tears on that seat. And there are your heated seat buttons right there. Automatic transmission on this vehicle. We'll take a quick look at the back seats and then we will check out under the hood. One thing I wanted to point out, this one does have the window edge security. Makes it harder to steal the vehicle. All the windows are etched with all the glass on the vehicles etched with that number. Back seats are very clean as well. No rips or tears back here. It does have the latch child safety system. We have the factory floor mats back here as well. And these back seats are heated. Your heated seat button is right there. Point out on that side you have the window sunshade. And this on the driver's side there is one as well. And that's how they hide into the window. These come up like so and then just latch into the top. Very cool feature on this vehicle. We'll take a quick look under the hood at the 2.4 liter four cylinder motor. All of our vehicles go through 130 point inspection. This one's no different. This one has been fully safe and inspected by our service facility. Has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off. And this Santa Fe is 100% ready to go. And to see more pictures of this vehicle or one of our other 400 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, Wranglers, you name it, we got to go to our website www.SummitAuto.com Full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle and a lot of videos of every single used vehicle that we have all at SummitAuto.com. Thank you so much for checking out the video. If you want to make this Santa Fe years, give us a call right now,<PHONE_NUMBER> ask for one of our sales associates to make this Santa Fe years today. Once again, that number is<PHONE_NUMBER>. Thank you so much for checking out the video. If you want to check out more, go to www.youtube.com. Remember to like, subscribe and share on this video and all the videos you see there. In fact, in a second you'll see a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel on your left. A link to more used inventory vehicles like this one on your right. 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Hello, my name is Vladimir Sidlacek and I welcome you to this talk called Formula for Disaster. First, let us recall that elliptic curve cryptography is based on the infeasibility of the discrete logarithm problem. That is, if we are given a point P and it's multiple K times P, recovering the private key K must be hard. But how do we compute K times P? There are different scalar multiplication algorithms, but they always internally used point addition. Here you can see a textbook formula for adding two affine points. But it has many caveats. You need to distinguish several cases. The point representation is not really efficient and so on. There are many other addition formulas which try to optimize the operation count, but there is no single best solution for each context. This creates a lot of complexity. Let us imagine that you are a developer who wants to implement ECC. You have many choices to make. Depending on your curve, you might need to pick a curve model, short wire strass, Montgomery, Edwards or Twisted Edwards. Then you need to decide which point representation to use. Projective coordinates, Jacobian coordinates, extended Jacobian coordinates or any of the others. Based on these choices, you now need to select an addition formula. And finally, you have to choose a scalar multiplication algorithm, such as a variant of the blend add, ladder one or window one. Not all of these choices are compatible, but still there are lots of them. In this talk, we will focus on the formula part. So how does an addition formula look like? Well, it takes two points in the chosen coordinates as inputs and outputs their sum in the same form. There are many intermediate computational steps, and on this slide you can see an example. Starting at the left column, each of the computed expressions depends only on the previous ones until we obtain the output from the right column. Note that the addition formula is this whole thing while we refer to the individual lines as intermediate expressions. Alright, but why does the formula matter? The problem is that many formulas have exceptional cases, meaning there exist points for which the formula doesn't compute their sum correctly. Often there are hidden assumptions for the formula to function properly, which can lead to behavior that the developer doesn't expect. And indeed, in the past, we have seen several examples of this phenomenon in popular cryptographic libraries. Mozilla has issued two CVEs in its NSS, and there were also problems with the exceptional cases in OpenSSL and Google's BoringSSL. These led to incorrect computations, and in some cases also internal state leakage. The good news is that there is the explicit formula database, which catalogs a large number of formulas and tries to verify their correctness. Unfortunately, it takes some shortcuts and might miss some scenarios. Therefore, we decided to classify all exceptional cases in the EFD formulas to finally settle this. More concretely, here you can see all the addition and differential addition formulas in the EFD, divided by model and coordinates. So the short virus trust addition formula that we saw a moment ago was just one of 21 possibilities for that case. That's really quite a high number. To classify the exceptions, we took two different approaches. Posing allowed us to automatically go through all pairs of points on small curves so that we could try to extrapolate the results. Unfortunately, it had a lot of false positives, so we had to resort to manually going through all the formulas. In this way, we managed to completely classify all the non-reveal exceptional points. In most cases, there wasn't anything surprising, but for the formula I showed you before, we actually discovered a whole family of exceptional points. You can see its description here, but let me explain a bit more. To find all exceptional points, it is enough to analyze when you could possibly divide by zero, which in this scenario means investigating when the Z-free coordinate becomes zero. To make this easier, we developed a tool that allows you to unroll the formula using back substitution. So in this case, you can expand the Z-free coordinate like this, and you can further simplify it by letting Z1 and Z2 equal zero, meaning both P and Q are fine points. And now you can see that when Y2 equals minus Y1, you really get a zero for Z3. In fact, you also need the X coordinates of the inputs to be different to really get an exceptional case. Okay, so we found an exception. So what? Well, there's this exceptional procedure attack, or EPA for short, that can apply. But before I tell you more about it, let me mention two other attacks, the refined power analysis, RPA, and zero-value point attack, ZVP. We noticed that these attacks are quite similar in some sense, so we decided to describe a formal framework that unifies them and allows for generalizations. So what do these attacks have in common? Well, they all make use of a scalar multiplication side-channel oracle, which is constructed from the implementation. The idea here is that you are free to input any point you want to the implementation, and while it is multiplied by the secret key, you observe a side-channel of some type. Assuming these oracles was probably the most challenging aspect of our unification. We also need to assume that the private key is static, which can be the case, for example, for key exchange protocols. And finally, the scalar multiplication algorithm must have the property that if K' is a prefix of the secret key K, then K' times P is computed in the course of computing K' times P. With all these assumptions in place, how do we recover the private key K from the implementation? Well, the implementation computes a sequence of adds and doubles depending on K, and with a good side-channel, we can learn some information along the way. So at a very high level, the attack starts by guessing a prefix K' of K. Based on this guess and the given formula, we construct a special point and give it to the implementation. The side-channel then tells us if our guess was correct or not. So in this way, we learn a prefix of K, and we can repeat the whole process bit by bit until we learn the whole private key. The specific attacks differ only in steps 2 and 4, while the rest stays the same. So for EPA, in the second step, we construct P in a way to hit the exceptional case of the formula. The side-channel here is given by our ability to detect that the result was not computed correctly. We can see this either from software or physically. Even if there are no exceptional points and EPA does not apply, we can perform a slight variation to obtain ZVP, which can actually also be seen as a generalization of RPA. Here in the second step, we are choosing a point which zeroes out an intermediate expression, and the side-channel is based on our ability to notice computations with zero values. For example, by a shorter execution time, let's see an example. We can choose any of the intermediate expressions in the formula, so let's pick T4 here. By unrolling the formula, just like before, we obtain an expression that we need to zero out, but in this case it's not so clear how to do that. So let us try to formalize what's going on. We are given a scalar K' an elliptic curve and a multivariate polynomial F. The number of variables might depend on actual point representation. The goal is to find two curve points P and Q, whose coordinates are roots of F such that U is K' times P. We call this the dependent coordinates problem, or just DCP for short. And solving the DCP allows us to construct our oracles and recover the private key. Let's summarize the two cases we have already seen. For EPA, we can take F to be the expression for ZVP. For ZVP, we have more freedom, we can take F to be any intermediate expression. In the last example we took P4. And also for RPA, we can pick either the expression for X3 or Y3. So you can see that from this viewpoint, the attacks really look quite similar. But the problem is that the DCP seems to be hard in general. It is not clear how to capture the relationship between P and Q, because the strategy of using division polynomials does not really scale. It allows you to recover maybe 20 bits, which is not negligible, but perform enough. We managed to solve some new cases, for example, when K' can be represented as a ratio of two small numbers modulo the curve order. Unfortunately such numbers are rare enough it does not really help the attacks. But on the bright side, we also noticed that when F does not depend on one of the points, then the DCP becomes easy. For RPA, this is nothing surprising really, but RPA is not that powerful because it requires a curve with at least one point with zero X or Y coordinate, and it's quite easy to classify these and prevent the attack. More interestingly, we noticed this easy scenario can also occur for ZVP with some formulas. Moreover, we managed to use this to adapt ZVP to a new attack on window methods. We simulated such an attack on an implementation using the RCB addition formula, which is actually the only complete formula for prime-older short-virus stress curves. So you can see that even with a complete formula, you cannot prevent all possible attacks. To wrap it up, what are our contributions? We released the tool for formula unrolling as an extension of PSK, which is an open-source toolkit for reversing ECC implementations by one of our co-authors. We completed the classification of EFD addition formulas and found a new family of exceptions.  We unfortunately did not manage to find a vulnerable implementation in the wild, but maybe that's a good thing, and it's not an unrealistic scenario as history shows. And finally, we solved new cases of a hard underlying math problem, which we call the deep TCP, but it still remains open in general, and it would be great if more people looked into it. So what are the lessons to be learned here? We should study widely deployed systems in advance and not wait for the actual attacks to happen. It's also useful to come up with simpler and conceptual viewpoints as they can push cryptonalysis further. We saw that the choice of the addition formula really matters, and that we should be more conservative with our claims. The best way to do that is to be very explicit about all assumptions, and ideally document them to help create a complete understanding. That's all from my side. If you enjoyed this talk, check out our webpage with all supplementary materials and software. Thanks and enjoy the rest of the conference.