Welcome to the 1878 FM podcast. There is episode 16. I'm back After an absence last week go to the broke-up the Tarkovsky Cody combination mean they last week ever present I I'm I'm I was I was disappointed. I really really was I had a feeling I mean, I knew I knew that Bush would would let us down by weekly. Of course That's the given we know that and and obviously, you know, ped can be temperamental Yeah, it just goes missing and whatever but I just had a feeling that you and me Baz I thought that we were we were a rock Or a pair of rocks at the back that couldn't be broken up and and when you weren't here last week It left me floundering some somewhat. I have parking only apology. I really wasn't well I wouldn't have missed it. Although I failed the late fitness test But a new peddler's back with stories of you know bringing Christmas to the people being to the Christmas capital of the world spread and Then I remembered what pets like and I thought and that won't fight I was spreading everything I could get my hands on you. There you go. I mean, I think I think the problem I think the problem that Bush found last week. Yeah, is that not only did he discover Just how Christmas see ped was he also discovered just how Christmas II am and when those two things collide Boom, it's like hot. It was like hot. I mean, we went baubles deep didn't we I mean, did you it's this bush not here just simply because Dave better get a week off a Christmas That's what it is probably great in it. Also, by the way Why does what does that mean anything because I've worked on breakfast radio once or twice? The thing is that I'm aware of the fact that you've finished that shift at about 10 ish So why and and this by the way, this this is being recorded at lunchtime. We normally record it about midday Don't we yeah So why in earth is he unavailable for comment at the moment because surely this is the best time for him to be Yeah, to be fair though. He does work for a radio station where you have to do about 12 shifts a day There's about 18 radio stations and honest to God if you if you've got a DAB and you press any Honest to God, you can press a button and the two o'clock Bush will be there go back a foreign press like I don't know Absolute robots or something and he's on it press another button absolute vampires. He's on it He just replayed Last week he did give us a little bit of I'm sure Dave was aware of this But he gave us a little bit of radio secret insight last week Yeah, he basically said it's all a big con and he'll sit in the run these at home Yeah, just record stuff that quick and then and then but the thing about Dave's you're absolutely right because I don't Remember when you were on said morning radio show and about 10 past 10 you were in the pub Well, I mean that's an exaggeration. I mean it was normally about 10 past 11 And also that was a very long time ago. That was when I was young and immature and actually, you know When when you're 23 and 24 and bulletproof you can do that sort of thing day in day out Not so much as I as I got more mature But yeah, you're right I mean, I still I failed to understand why midday to one is not a good time for mr. Bush When he's just done Dave Berry show on the on the radio apologies by the noise in the background by the way It's been day today Amazing That's it. Oh, you know, I try my best. You've shan't briefed it. Well, the kangaroo core for Bush is a regular, you know He's turning into Someone we can't rely on to be fair though as as he goes higher in on the radio spectrum Hmm, we will probably see less of him, you know, it is I don't accept that it is well No, I don't commit it though, you know, yeah, but would you would you describe his career currently as being on the climb? Because nobody doesn't mean on channel five talking heads. Yo once okay fine I mean, I know I know I know by contrast mine is very much on the slide You know, I don't know whether he's on the way up or not Dave.  You're very much, you know what your role is now You took all our experience and you move Andy is a man who should definitely be on a top-ten list on channel five somewhere or basically talking about Aldi Christmas on channel five. He should be narrating something. You know, he's got a he's got a velvety voice and he should be in the in fact He's got what you know, we've seen what he does on Twitter We see how everyone pops up with like the pictures of personations Surely some satellite channel by now should have given his own show Just a Bush on Bravo Yeah, you know Dave I see I still I still think for you there might be a resurgence It's whether you've got it in you. That's the difference. It's whether you want to take it.  He's got some great players as well But he's struck it and I I still look at you and think there's definitely strictly or I'm a celebrity waiting for you I told you no, I'm telling you. It's no it's gone. That'll be honest, Dave I have no idea who the fellow is one who won strictly exactly. I don't know I don't that's not against them. No, no to be to be to be fair though of all the years And and there's a lot of people level this at these these various different shows year on year and they say I don't know anybody and and and to be fair normally that's more of a slight on their own knowledge of popular culture I'm not saying that that's with you, but I'm saying that's with certain people. However. I have to say that this year the winner Hamza wasn't it? I didn't see the final but Hamza who is a I think he's a wildlife camera man. Is he? He's a documentary maker Comes across I'll be honest with you. I'd never heard of him before the show I saw the odd moments of the show with my mom He came across as a thoroughly nice man in my opinion and and and a worthy winner because of his journey I would imagine Um, but yeah, I'd never heard of him beforehand. Um, and I think most people will be in the same camp, but um That that that ship has sailed for me as much as it's um, it's very nice If you are talking like obviously we have come to the end of a major turn There you are book going back to your past glory. It's what we've got. You're on this give us I mean so you have you have literally Commentated on a major Football tournament. Yes. Okay. It was via the red button. Oh the red button stuff. Yeah. Yeah Give us a little bit of insight into that because it's that I mean Some of you know being on high on a high you commentated On the red button on a major tournament So give us a little bit of insight on that one. It was just really I mean well, firstly, there wasn't a huge amount of pressure on on on the basis that it was seen largely as a joke And so that's always that's always the best sort of get out whereby you know that people aren't listening to you necessarily for the match commentary, you know You know guy mobri wasn't having any sleepless nights in terms of what we were doing But but you know, it was just quite fun So the way that they did it is obviously they fed through the live feed of the game and myself and malls were in the studio there And then they had our studio linked up to the red button feed which meant that for those that aren't aware This was just like a sort of special little joke feature that we did So if you wanted to watch whatever that world cup game was and you wanted to have the alternative commentary as it was Known by me and Chris and that's what you could have So, you know, you could either have proper commentary or you could have us do dickheads talking shite for For, you know, 90 minutes and and and some people chose to do that To be fair, you know, you got years and years out of radio out of itself. Yeah No, I know I mean it's something that we knew we could do I mean, you know, sort of just filling for that long was something that we we were aware was in was in our locker but that said It was actually quite an interesting process in so much as You realize that thing where you do have to kind of fill time to an extent and you do have to Try your best to paint the pictures for those And yeah, it's a it's a sort of discipline that that you've never really thought of before But it was actually quite genuinely quite fun having a go at it And I'm pretending, you know, for a short time anyway to be someone like a martin tyler or a guy mobri or Or Darren Fletcher or whoever you want to put in there. What year was that? I'm trying to think So was it not the euros that you spend the whole time in So we so what we did what we did the first the first tournament that we went out for was the euros in 2000 Which was in holland and belgium, right? For that one we just used to we we flew back and forth because it's not far Is it so we just sort of flew in and out for the games and it and it was great. It was brilliant and then 2002 was obviously japan south career. We were never going to get anywhere near that. It was too expensive So so that wasn't going to happen as an outside broadcast 2004 was portugal So we went out there for portugal, which was brilliant, you know, and we basically spent a month out there. We They hired us this villa And so we were broadcasting the show every day from this villa in portugal And a kid and chappers was out there as well.  We're kind of like the naughty kind of teenage, you know, brothers, right? And then there's various different combinations of sleeping arrangements throughout the house and And yeah, you know chappers was sitting there with his feet in the pool and whatever or sat on a Lilo doing his 330 sports bulletin into scott's mills a show and literally kind of go right more in an hour And then jump jump straight in the pool We did that we did that for for a month and it was amazing 2006 was woke up in germany and we went after that as well In a slightly lesser capacity because in the meantime in around 2005 then obviously Things had got a bit tighter in terms of bbc budgets and and whatnot and accountability So that was slightly sort of cut back and then 2008 was the euros in poland, wasn't it poland in austria? Yeah, spain one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we didn't do anything for that one And then obviously 10 was south africa. I reckon it was 2010. We did that alternative commentary. I think it was south africa Yeah Um, yeah, they're good run them. Yeah, they're good runner tournaments. Didn't you don't a few? Yeah, well, we did. Well, we did.  It was really really good You know, it was like There's a couple of cars and stuff like that outside kind of like, you know, there was cars for everyone to use And we want to say cars and we're not trying to kind of like Bentley's outside But you know, there was a there was a couple of kind of Ford focuses outside that we'd sort of hired So, you know, it might be that Rachel our producers saying well, I'm going to take the red one and I'm going to go to the hyper market And go and do like a big shop or whatever for you know Does anybody want anything and then me and chappers would kind of go Well, we're going to take the blue one into lisbon, you know And just go go and have some lunch and a couple of beers and then maybe go and speak to We went to speak to reedy one day just because we could you know because he was there in the broadcast centre So we'd gone to kind of do like a little interview with him for our saturday show And so yeah, we went and had a had a nice lunch and a couple of jars and went and recorded reedy and And then then we went back and I remember as well We gave we gave away we gave away on our chappers and Dave saturday show We gave away an england shirt signed by the whole team, right And and this was a big thing, but um, but when we say signed by the whole team We meet the whole team on our on our radio show show Me chappers and jostling who was our producer, but we all signed it, you know, and that was our that was our thing Now we had a laugh was good It's all shambles. No, you know listen I mean and and by the way and joking aside and and and never ever take this for granted because It was just an amazing opportunity, you know And I look back now genuinely and pinch myself because it was this sort of mad roller coaster that we lived And those sort of trips that we you know and there was others as well You know other amazing trips that we did and those sort of things were just you know really just really really lucky to do They were very very privileged and um, yeah, just great memories Just back on to this obviously it's finished now but Happy arts and seeing them won it messy Yeah, I mean to be honest with you I Someone said this to me the other day, you know, and I was saying how much I enjoyed the final and I said Who were you rooting for and I said, you know, we're genuinely nobody, you know It was one I suppose very slightly I was rooting for France I think and I don't really know why I was but I think just in my heart to hearts and maybe Maybe it was more on the balance of the game as well because obviously, you know Argentina looked to be in command and in control early doors and therefore Maybe just to make it more interesting. Um, I suppose I wanted to see a french comeback But I wasn't rooting for anybody per se But the way that that game, you know twisted and turned and I mean it was just phenomenal and um Yeah, I mean it was far better than I thought it ever would be and and has already been described What I described at the time as being possibly one of the greatest World Cup finals of all time and and yeah It was it was very very special to watch and um, I mean, how can you ever for see a situation where killing and back He can end up scoring four goals and still be on the losing side. I mean, it's just ridiculous but please for Messi, I think in terms of as arguably The greatest footballer of all time. I mean it's between him and Maradona, isn't it in my opinion And and it's a toss up between the two But if he is indeed the best player of all time and he could well be, you know When you look at what he's actually done over the period of time that he's done it I think for him to actually lift that trophy was was fitting And yeah, he fully deserves it. It's it's quite funny because you know, you mentioned Messi there and it was the it was the absolute You know the absolute moment for a lot of people that that just signified that he is the best I don't think I don't think he needed to in it But I think by doing it for a lot of people he is but I did see something twisty Yes, and it did make me think You know someone was saying how come in the space of a tournament the arguments of who's better Messi Ronaldo Ronaldo suddenly being relegated from second place to maybe you know fourth or fifth and it did get me thinking but I think for the main reason is because we've been having this conversation about who's the best and a lot of For a lot of people it's been is it Messi Ronaldo? I mean I think I speak for Bazir as well as myself as we don't think Ronaldo's ever been in the conversation not for us anyway I was just about to say that. I mean for me, he's not even in the equation You know, he's he's been a great player, but there's no way he's even Comparable not messy on any level But I think what has happened is because we have had the conversation I think the more people have started pushing other people's corners We've made I mean because it's obviously twitter and things like that where these conversations start are Full of young voices who want to shout the larder So therefore they're always going to push Ronaldo and then Ronaldo narrative Being an amazing player. He's been very very lucky as of as a message because this whole career has been Broadcast on TV and on social media. So therefore you've seen every aspect of his game, you know Other players don't have that luxury. We have we have little snippets And I think what's happened during the tournament is more and more people have seen More and more clips of Madonna and maybe even Zidane we don't I don't look at Zidane's being that long ago, but it's you know It's 2006 It's quite a long time ago now 24 years ago since he won the world Exactly. Yeah, so so and then you and then you factor in maybe some other people, you know into that as well We we speak so highly of Of you know the original Ronaldo R9 and then we got the documentary and a few people woke up to how good and talented He was and even me watching that documentary I was like I totally forgot that he went missing for two years of his career and come back and won a welcome I think that's what's happened the conversation has opened the people going actually Look at this fella and look at the factors of why Of why he you don't think he's the best Madonna being the prime example because he was kicked all around the pitch The pitches were terrible. Maybe there's not loads of footage, you know, I was talking to Someone yesterday about Pelé and he was like well for me Pelé is the greatest because he turned up in three well cups And won them all and I was like, yeah, but you didn't see the other stuff And he was like, yeah, but that's the point you didn't see the other stuff So he's got a fair argument I've seen a journalist talking the other day about about saying how many people in the in the UK have a certain age Probably our dad's age saying about George Best And we were like well the reason why my alpha are your alpha are everyone's alpha I think George Best was the best because they went and watched them. He saw them on a Saturday afternoon on terrible pitches and No no one in the current You know in the current era can go has got any evidence bar a few moments The reason why the reason why I'd take best out of it the talent You've seen it all thing, but he's been there that's when he's No, no, but I'm not discussing him as being one of the greatest players What I'm saying is is that what a footballer All our all our parents generation would say he's the best because they actually physically saw them in the flesh And that's that can be actually seeing someone in the flesh as well Can be you know, you see them on TV all the time, but when you actually see them I find this a lot with Certainly like Americans when they come over and watch games, Premier League games in the flesh and they go That game is a million times faster than what I think it is on television So there's so many factors Perspective isn't it you see people But you know, do you know the one that I always think of and and have done for a while and You know during his playing day is Alan Shearer because for me He was always very much a typical British centre forward You know one of those kind of sticker books centre forwards that you can imagine You know really old-fashioned in the way that he played it and I mean that with the greatest respect Yeah, yeah And and I've always kind of felt in the same way that you know, we might ask ask our parents and stuff like that Did you see Stanley Matthews? Did you see so-and-so? I kind of imagine that our own kids or even grandkids might kind of say Did you see Alan Shearer play, you know, and I'd be like, yes, I did, you know And he genuinely was that good. He was that just marauding goal machine. He was completely You know, he was he was Brutal in front of goal, wasn't he? Yeah, it was an amazing play Well, I'll throw another one in here because I was watching a little there's like a little 15 minutes of the documentary scene court yesterday um And it was Dennis Bayer camp And I it got me thinking is there anyone Is there anyone in the Premier League or saying was there anyone at the Whale Cup other than the usual suspect of messy Is there anyone out there at the moment who was as talented as Dennis Bayer camp and Dennis Bayer camp These lists by the way, you know top 10 But is anyone out there at the moment as talented as him can do the things he did, you know This document, he was all about the goal he scored against Newcastle, you know the flick around the corner He ran around the other way, you know, I was thinking Is there anyone really in Whale football at the moment who's as talented as him and I really apart from obviously messy I couldn't think of too many. We've got that kind of talent and it's something again where people would never talk about Baker and we go what a player but again, we saw him. We were lucky enough to see him in the flesh And you just think you take those players for granted. Well, I changed something the other day It's something about Wayne Rooney actually. Yeah, because obviously same ages Ronaldo isn't even messy And someone was saying that he had he's just he had just as much talent as those two players Messi, I don't know but he's better footballer than Ronaldo like miles better as a footballer But didn't have quite the discipline. Maybe it's what Cristiano's got or all the way Messi The unusual the unusual thing about Rooney though, and that was why It was so special seeing him in the flesh for the first time, you know We said this before and it was it was 2002 opening game. Wasn't it 2-2 against Spurs and and we'd heard about this We'd heard about this kid coming up through the through the youth And I don't know whether you'd seen anything of him, you know beforehand in training or whatever You know, I hadn't we'd heard heard loads about this kid and just you know, he was going to be phenomenal and You know, he kind of thought well, you know, see see what happens. Yeah, and and and he just looked instantly At 16 years of age so at home In the middle of that park and bear in mind he's playing against the likes of teddy sharing him It was easily old enough to be his dad. I think I think Jamie Redknapp was playing that game as well. Wasn't he not sure maybe but certain certainly certainly certainly sharing him was there and and I think the thing with Rooney is that It was quite unusual in his build because he was he was big and strong and very He wasn't going to get pushed off and this is normally the thing with young players Isn't it is often that you know, they might be clever and they might be fast But they actually they don't have the the physical strength To actually hold their own in that kind of situation and and he had more than his own sort of physical strength And and yeah, I mean, I think I think he had everything bar as you say possibly the personal discipline to have kept himself Focused, you know mentally and physically for for maybe longer But and and you know and you looked at him and and that was the other thing is that you you knew even from an early age You knew you kind of thought this lad's going to struggle with his weight You know if he's not careful, he's always going to struggle with his weight It's a strange one, isn't it with with weighing because obviously yeah, when you say that he's the same age Or he's just a little bit older and he could still potentially be playing It does make you think doesn't it what if what if he'd What if he'd you know treated himself himself a bit better the way The way obviously Ronaldo has and obviously Messi has and I've not it's strange because I don't know if it's a lack of Professionalism, you're right, David. It's it's just a body type or you know, I think we've seen a little bit now without being disrespectful to him It's like the minis. He's one of those players that And without actually taking away from what you knew was that Michael ball wrote something about this the x evident defender Not the other singer. Um And he said he said is I'd like to hear his viewpoint as well You never get out of that. Yeah, he said he said now he was just a little bit before way and obviously but he said They pumped them so many some full of so many Uh injections to get them on the pitch that his knees now are completely shot And therefore he can't go to jail. Of course, he's put on weight So people see him and they go, ah, you know footballer ex footballer looking at himself going He's like I can't do nothing. He said some days. I can't I have to he said literally he said some days I have to Go down the stairs on me on me on my bum. He said he said I can't physically walk down the stairs. So Wayne Rooney starting at 16 fresh out the box being straight into it playing all those games Playing all those games for Manchester United every game hardly missed a game, you know for any stretch of paid them playing for England You know coming back to heaven going to America all those things Played for a long time, you know, you it's very easy to go. Oh god Look at him. Look at the look. Why isn't he playing now?  I actually am gonna Have a curry on a saturday night and and and all the rest of it But number two, who knows what it was Michael Owens. Michael Owens the biggest one you look at Michael You can't go he's not like you but you look at him and go wow He looks so different than what, you know, you think I'm Michael Owen and It is but it's a testimony, you're supposed to the likes of Ronaldo just how Disciplined he is and he's like he's almost obsessive. He doesn't put anything in his body He is but again going back to the going back to the comparisons to you know for me I think it's between two personally and I think it's between I think it's the two Argentines I think it's I think it's to do with with Messi and maradona and I think Longer career longer period of time Messi for sure. I think if I was to get pushed on it in terms of when you look at the Natural ability and they've both got it in bucket loads by the way But there's just something a bit more about maradona. I think just in there's just a little bit more Magic in terms of what he could and and it's interesting because and this is why they're so completely different From Ronaldo for me and from any other comparisons. I know Dennis Burkham's a completely different player It's it's the way they're so compact and the way they're so well balanced You know and these are the sort of players that that I always enjoy, you know watching, you know It's a it's a flattering comparison, but you know the likes of david silver as well You know small compact clever players beautifully balanced aguero as well different sort of player But same kind of balancing All little fellows. Yeah, they are but they those to me the the players that I want to watch, you know, and I've never been into you know again, I've never been into kind of Lanky midfielders for example, you know, I know we have one in onana and we hope that it would do very well But you know the likes of of his style and and and watching, you know Even even patrouffierre and stuff like that in his day. It's not it doesn't really do it for me Even though I know I can see how effective they are Yeah, no any and runy sort of fits into that box as well, doesn't he with that size player? Yeah, it does come down to I think Do you think when people talk about Messi and Ronaldo, which again, I don't understand what they do I really don't but The Ronaldo to me is is a like It's all about power and patience and about Don't get me wrong. There is lots of technical ability. But what you just said day a day for Messi and There's magic in the feet Going to four plays and come off exactly Do you think that so someone like Ronaldo is brilliant at what he does? But it feels very much like he is Rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed those patterns of things on the training ground. So, you know, his free kicks And and he was you know, he was for me He was quite one-sided as well Ronaldo This sounds like I'm having a criticism of one of the greatest players ever on the planet But you know what I mean and and where I think the other two that were saying could just Instinctively cope with anything. I mean listen the other one we haven't mentioned in this is Gaza You know in terms of in terms of that natural ability of just having the ball in the middle of the park and Needing to do something magical to get out from between those two or three players Which is what we'd imagine Maradona to do and what we'd imagine Messi to do. I tell you what Gaza could do that as well in his day just that instinctive magic the problem It was three or four years and then the injury once the injury never ever the shame, but it but it in them years 80 86 Come to the end of 86 when he got into the Newcastle side till 91 Isn't it sad? Isn't it sad though? It's like You have a player like like Gaza and obviously you have played at Rooney and they they their natural ability comes from Being almost unprofessional Coming from playing it's not Coaching in an academy. It's not, you know, there's nothing there's no there's nothing like that involved It's about natural talent coming out on the playground on the streets doing what you want to do But then the flip side of that is when you become a professional and this is a lot less with Rooney By the way, but I'm somehow just just some out sometimes temperament is that when that comes at the end Gaza needed then that professionalism. He needed maybe in Alex Ferguson In his career, not a Terry Venables to look after him He needed someone who would actually grab all of them and it's It's the it's actually the devil in them that makes them the play of the hour But then also makes them self-destruct and we know that with plays I get a canton on as well and people like that and there's loads of plays even Even with Zidane, which I'm like Zidane, which I'm like, you know Is last ever world cup game and and we you know what he done It's that little bit of devil and we obviously always it's a fine line and Gaza just didn't have any professionalism about him. You go back and you look at what's the people around them No, but I also think it's just education coming through isn't it?  You You don't need to act like this and that's where but that's I think that's more of a data dating I don't think a Graham Taylor could have done that. I think that's a data dating manager who's who's just Wearing them down and to go back to what you say about really about Rooney I think that's what Ferguson did. He took the edges off But unfortunately when he took the edges off him as a player he become this player who would play in every position to Make sure Ronaldo was the number one player or someone else who's the number one player and suddenly you had this Yeah Wayne should have been playing up front should have been the main man should have been man United star, but He he he knew Ronaldo Was was only willing maybe to do one job and therefore Wayne had to fit him But Wayne was happy to fit him because he'd had those edges taken off And I don't think Wayne was ever as good a footballer In terms of like just getting your bum off your seat than when he played at Everton in those two years No, you should we see that The way it is but and the other thing obviously like messing and all that They've been a top clubs the whole career as well, haven't they they've always generally been at the best clubs winning The best games and all that so Can I bring in can I kind of bring in somebody else for and again? This is a very very flattering comparison But I wonder if there's anything in this just in terms of potential and you're talking obviously about You know Wayne when he was a kid with us before he went to to united in 2004 is Whether or not whether or not hints of something with ross barkley in so much as that ability to You know kind of quite explosive pace from nowhere well balanced strong Stocky Almost, you know and somewhere and again hugely hugely flattering comparisons between rune and and gazzarum what not now the the problem with barkley for me is that he had no End product, you know, he could he could explode and he could beat first man second man third man But it's then that ability to know what to do with it, you know to actually, you know Push it sideways You know the he'd always run into a brick wall eventually, but was there not something in him where you kind of thought with the right Polishing and molding and coaching here. We could have a really really special player Um, I don't know. I mean, maybe it was just me that saw that I think I think he was I think he was a I think he 100 had something and I think and obviously martin has loved them to bit I think and I think I think maybe if martin has it stayed Which obviously would have been detrimental to to everything to everything else Then maybe ross would have turned out to be a very very good player. I think he definitely had he's got I don't think he's got I think he's got a kind of talent You don't you're very rarely see somebody can pick up the ball and get you up the pitch 60 yards And you're right. It's what he'd do at the end of it. And maybe he should have simplified it And just used to get eight goals and six assists No, no, this is brilliant player and we we could do with them right now We could probably still do with them right the the ross partly right now But again, it's that thing. It's the pathway, isn't it? It's the pathway of of Who's looking after the air? He got a manager at evident, you know Under cumin who just didn't have any time for them and and drop them and and made them basically leave the club And and then he went to Chelsea where it's a it's a factory. It's a it's a Club side Chelsea just factories. They just they just sweep all the talents up And then if they don't wait if it doesn't work, they just push them out and doesn't matter to them but players lots of players will will Their careers will be if they continue we've had this discussion earlier on this week actually with players if players continue to just Be motivated by going to a champions league team but not understand them what the actual pathway is going to be for them Then we're going to lose so much talent in this country where it should be because we we had this couple of days ago Dave we were saying Ross was mentioned um, I think even lakaki was mentioned and a couple more saying Sometimes you've just got to know what you're not where your ceiling is is such but just look at it and go You know what if I am loved at this club? I could be a legend and also I could take this club on where there's Too many footballers are happy to move on Become a squad player because obviously there's nine places on the bench and they'll get the odd champions league game And when they win a trophy, they'll be in the picture even though they're not involved And I think more and more footballers need to start looking around going The grass isn't greener and and I understand the other side of the argument is well, you only get one green You've got to take your chance I that's fair enough if you're brilliant and you're going to play weekend and week out And you're going to be a big part of the squad Then no problem no problem at all the latest one obviously was with Charleston He wanted to try champions league football gone, but some of them. I just think stay where you are Lansing Anthony Gordon would have fallen into exactly the same trap as Barclay I believe had he gone to Chelsea, you know and obviously that didn't materialize and and everything that you're saying now ped is arguably Advice for for Anthony Gordon at this moment in time and perhaps the sort of advice that he should be having professionally from whoever his advisors And people are because I think that you know what you've said there In you know, I think I think he'd be completely lost at a Chelsea. I genuinely do Um, I think he's I think he's a good player I don't think he's I don't think he's necessarily a world-class player But I think he's a very good player And I think that that's the difference and I can just see him As I say falling very much in the footsteps of Ross Barclay If he was to go down that route And it would be a shame, you know, whereas arguably in terms of where he is with his career and and and where he is with this stage of life I think that Um, I think that he's better off staying with by the way And that's not just a that's not just a blinkered kind of evertonian viewpoint because to be honest with you You know, you could say the same thing about an other about another club If he was a villa, if he was at a Leicester, if he was at somewhere like that, you know I kind of say listen, I'm sorry that we lost him to villa Or I'm sorry that we lost him to Leicester would actually the best place for him at this moment in time is to stay at that club Um, it's about where you are and where you fit and I think where you You know where you are in the hierarchy of that and if you're just going to be a bench warmer Um, and you want to as you say get the odd get the odd You know sort of appearance in the champions league and get your medal and get your photograph at the end of the day You know life's about more than that It's about actually kind of like proving what you can do on the biggest stage that you can possibly do it And that's not always necessarily the biggest stage in the world. Yeah Do we have to talk about everton? No No, we don't let's finish with non football. Okay. I mean, don't ever in the chair next week Against waltz at home and we'll win There you go. There you go. No more needs to declare preview. There you go I like that It's a game. We've got a win. We said it. We said it So you two with depression and the last week over christian No, it's I think I think I think people people mistake You know depression and cringe like behavior for realism And I think that me impaired a very much, you know yuletide realists and we were just trying to Deliver a healthy slice of realism to the bushmeister. It's the bushmeister all over it was he was he loving it Bush lives in the perfect world, doesn't he? He lives in a little toy town outside london He can either sit there in his bills and make radio shows for his radio station radio stations or like to you know Or you can you know get on the train and you know Jump jump onto into london where he's you know, I'd rise by the millions and and Walking down oxygenally with all the lights with the very much like love actually Because that's what london exactly is like a Christmas. Yeah, and um, you know Dave berry takes a week off to go to the Caribbean and he's you know, he has to do the morning show and he's he's all over it Isn't he he was happy so he me david just like well Yeah We just we we just we weren't we weren't maybe as ho ho ho As he thought that we might have been But you know, listen, I'm one of those people. I'm normally quite pleased when Christmas is over. Ah, you know Yeah Yeah, I do like it. But then again, I'm a bit like that with my birthday. It's all to be honest with you I'm always happy when when it's gone. You know, you should have be You know the pressure's on you for your birthday. Yeah, it's on you, isn't it? It's like what do you want to do? It's like I don't really want to do anything.  It's not about me That's what Jesus is like Yeah, and and you know and you know what in many ways in many ways Peter, you know You and I have both have a little slice of Jesus in us. I think Just a sliver Just a sliver You know, I it's true. You're not really looking forward to Christmas then Dave. That's what we're showing Well, you know, I mean in a public forum and I suppose technically this is, you know, I like to say yes I am and and and it'll be a wonderful time and it'll be great to see everybody and and whatnot, but um, you know and and You listen, let's let's say that yes. I am but but by the same token I'm also quite looking forward to to it being being done for another year How about that? Okay. I mean that was okay. Yeah I'm not about you. I'm not I am not of the same sentiments. I I enjoy it. I don't know where Where where Andy's issues came from last week, I think, you know, I'd maybe I was just a bit christmas out because I just had the christmas experience of a lifetime And I was just a bit like, yeah, I mean that's so one Andy big deal. You get to go on a train. Good for you Chew chew No, I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to Christmas. I yeah, it's Quite I'm quite relaxed about the whole thing. It's just football. I think and that's the real issue I love I love Christmas. I must admit. I do you know, I mean, you yeah, you proper proper happy little I do I do love it because I just think it's I think it's just totally different to any other time of the year and I like that. I like the fact that likes When I was younger you should love seeing so many people over Christmas I'll be honest you know, I don't mind saying in now and doing whatever watching films and I'm and having some time away from everyone else as well, but we were but I will see people and obviously we have People for Christmas day and all that so we'll get to see everyone and I still seem to be on my dad and stuff but I just like the whole Do you like that period just because it is totally different to any other time in a year? I think I think that's why I like it and there is that week um I just wish there was 18 foot of snow and there was no football that will that will be perfect The week in between I don't think there should be any football I don't think there should be anything They should just break Certainly football They should play the last game before Christmas and that should be it till afternoon Yeah, and just give everybody a break from it. And you know, I'm saying People I can't wait to get to this game in that game in the other game. I was thinking why No, but these are like even in the athletic today was reading something and it was like You know football fans can't wait for three games in a week. I'm just like really To be fair to be fair. We we were sitting here watching four games in a day and we were loving it I know but people have the same feeling about that I mean watching watching everton once a week at the moment is too hard You know, it's the idea of watching multiple, you know games over over a close succession Is is is potentially painful But I mean the thing is though, let's let's let's let's let's let's end on a positive I think um because You know prior to the World Cup we kept looking at the at the at the table and the fixtures and what not and saying, right? Well, we need how many points do we need ideally? We need this many from this many and then well, let's let's let's be a bit more realistic And then let's let's kind of make it this many from this many and what do you know what? We'll just take whatever we can and here we find ourselves literally teetering above the relegation zone On the restart Let us hope that we kick off with a win against Wolves and let us hope that 2023 is kind of to us in the back end of 2022 was Tired of 2023 This is true. This is 2022 Have we been sucked into talking about ever? I don't know if Dave I was literally gonna ask Dave this Well, I was trying to come out on a positive day. That was what I was finishing with. What was this church of meet on Christmas day? And oh, sorry. What was the choice of me? Um, I would say well, it's it's well, it's normally turkey However, and how about this for going left field go on is that we're going for a time meal on Christmas day today? Nice. Okay, we're having a Yeah, we're having a Much better than just putting fill in your plate I mean, I feel I only have I don't as if you won't fill your plate I really now only have one roast dinner. Just what normally you'd have what four or five No, I yeah So when people go like oh, we have a sunday roast. Yeah, I generally Have two maximum over the Christmas period, but probably just one of you. That's it. That's the only roast. I have a roast at any other time So, but why I mean, there's no reason why you couldn't eat even as a month You can as a month You can have one on a Wednesday, Dave. But but it just doesn't I just don't do it. It's only Craig Dave So put that on the song So therefore the Christmas day meal for me is a special one because it is I don't eat that food at any other time Actually, Jesus was born so you could have a roast. That was the only thing he said and I bring you Freedom and the roast And that was what and do you have do you have Yorkshire potatoes with your turkey or not Yorkshire? Yorkshire potatoes. Well, what's that? I mean, I'm sorry. I was Yorkshire puddings between Yorkshire potatoes. Sorry. I was I know in my in my mind I was looking at both of them and they came out as Yorkshire potatoes. I've no idea what we are Okay, I was thinking do you have do you have do you have Yorkshire puddings with you with your turkey? Because I know that traditionally it doesn't really belong on there. However, I would always go for it Yeah, I'd go for it. I know it's a big long trip beef, doesn't it? But I would go with I would go with it Yeah, I think if you you can't go wrong with a bit of Yorkshire puddings Fair play. Bill of pickled onion. What sorry black pepper. What? Just one pickled onion Yeah, just one single just on the side. What are you talking about? I've just told you What are you talking about? The one sauce of meat stuffing. Oh, yeah, nice. What meat stuffing? Sorry, I missed that If you want to watch by the way, if you want to watch something over Christmas The traitors on BBC one. Oh, it's so good. I think yeah Oh, no, no Winkleman. Yeah, no Winkleman's boss. I like it, but I'm not watching that Why did you just go like that? Because that's a fringe. Oh, sorry. I thought you were thinking she had a mono, bro She's like that and she's like Winkleman like this. She has to kind of look through She has to look through it. Do you know? It's really good. Do you know honestly? No, but People normally need like a block something to watch. Do you know what I'm just saying? Okay, have have you have you seen White Lotus yet? No, but I am going to check that out It's really really good. I finished it The night before last We'll check it out. There are six episodes in the first series. There are seven episodes in the second series It is brilliant. It's really really good and you watch it at first and you kind of think Is this going to be me? Is it a little bit light for me? Is it a little bit? And then you get into it and you actually realize all the characters are horrible and it's it's brilliant You like do you like shows where everyone's horrible? You just started watching Mr. Quest, haven't you? It's amazing. It's one of the most underrated shows on tv. It's on apple plus. It's amazing. It's amazing Mr. Quest. It's really really good. It's really good, right? That is it our Christmas edition is over Merry Christmas to one and all No, next week No, it's not. It's Boxing Day, isn't it? No, it's not the day after Boxing Day, sorry We'll be back in the new year for Merry Christmas to one and all. Yeah, enjoy your roast dinner Enjoy your Yorkshire potatoes like Dave will be And hopefully Bush will be available some time He just messed with me and he said he sorry he couldn't come on here and absolute yachts But there you go. Absolute yachts is the place for the police to be I love that. We can't do anything else with that Play a lot of early 80s, you know Music with the real Dave have a fantastic Christmas smile and and and and to both of you I'd like to say thank you. It's been a privilege working with you both in 2022 on this newly formed podcast and we look for wonderful and exciting developments in 2023 Happy Christmas. Happy new year, and I will see you soon The perfect way to finish one and all Let me just finish by saying in the other room, there's a porn star and I can hear the screaming I don't know what that's all about, but we'll leave it there So we have another martini That's gone and bollocksed up the Christmas mood, hasn't it? Yeah, that's we're going to check it out. See you later. Bye


Well, hello, this is Guy Page, publisher of Amont State House Headliners, back for our third show. Welcome back. Today, I thought I'd take a special look at what the House Judiciary Committee is doing regarding drug reform laws. And by drugs, I mean illegal drugs, narcotics, sales of illegal drugs. There is a definite trend of bills that are introduced by Judiciary Committee members into the House Judiciary Committee that seem to have a lot in common. And we will go over those in detail today. The highlight here is there are bills that would expunge criminal records for marijuana and hashish possession, decriminalize possession for up to two ounces of marijuana, limit judicial forfeiture of assets.  This would limit that. Another bill would reduce hard drug possession from felony to a misdemeanor. And yet another bill would legalize safe spots for drug use. Now understand, I'm not necessarily saying that these are good or bad, but these are all new bills that have been introduced recently into the Vermont House that I think people are interested in. So I'm telling you about it. If you want to receive Vermont State House Headliners directly, our column that comes out almost every day now, you can email Page Communications for VT at gmail.com. That's Page Communications for the number 4, VT at gmail.com. So back to our drug reform bills. Several bills introduced by members of House Judiciary Committee seek to push back the current legal boundaries on marijuana and heavier drugs. For example, H-251, and you can get a good look at exactly what H-251 says by going to the Vermont Legislature's website, that's www.legislature.vermont.gov. H-251 would expunge misdemeanor marijuana possession convictions imposed prior to legalization last year. We all know that possession of marijuana in a small amount, one ounce or less, became legal July 1 of last year. What this bill would do is if you were convicted of a marijuana possession before then, this would expunge that record, it just wouldn't show up anymore, it would be eliminated. It also would decriminalize possession of less than two ounces of marijuana or 10 grams of hashish. So that's twice as much marijuana as was legalized last year in the legalization bill, twice as much would be decriminalized. Decriminalization is not exactly legalization, decriminalization is like getting a parking ticket or speeding ticket, it's a civil fine. So it doesn't go on your criminal record, but on the other hand it's not a completely legal activity either. So this would be decriminalized possession of less than two ounces of marijuana or 10 grams of hashish. The sponsors for this bill H-251 are Maxine Grad, chairman of House Judiciary, Celine Colburn and Barbara Rachelson of House Judiciary, two Burlington members, and also Sam Young of Glover who is the lead sponsor for the house's tax and regulate retail sale of marijuana bill. So as I said, right now it's legal to possess up to one ounce of marijuana, this would double that at least to make it a decriminalized amount. Two ounces of marijuana is enough marijuana I am told for about 120 joints, depends on the strength of the marijuana of course, but figure about 120 joints for two ounces of marijuana. Now one of the arguments for legalizing possession of marijuana is that well, they're already selling it, why not just completely legalize it and that way maybe it will help get rid of the black market. What seems to have happened after since the bill was passed and went into effect of July 1 of last year is that in our larger towns and cities anyway, the black market seems to have picked up. I've heard this at various forums and for example, there is the owner of the Good Times Gallery that's right across Church Street from City Hall, literally in the shadow of Burlington City Hall. The owner was arrested for the sale of marijuana on a federal charge and I've read in seven days that there were sales involved edibles, which is a highly concentrated forum, can be a highly concentrated forum of marijuana and there were teenagers there as well. So apparently to some degree what is happening is that the legal pot grown legally or possessed legally is emboldening the sale, the illegal sale of marijuana, which has TJ Donovan, our attorney general and others saying well, I guess we might as well just go for a full tax and regulate, retail sale, open up the stores and cultivate in Vermont. We might as well do that because obviously something's not working. Again that's being done in Colorado and other states and there in those states the black market is thriving. The idea that you can legalize your way out of the black market just doesn't seem to work in the real world. So another bill, H-250, that is a tax and regulate marijuana bill is in house judiciary and that's exactly like the bill that is running its way through the Senate right now. In fact I think today as we speak is February 19th and I believe it was approved in the Senate today and the only difference between the Senate tax and regulate bill and the House tax and regulate bill is that the Senate bill doesn't collect as much taxes, it collects about 10%. The House bill would collect about 20%. And why this is important is that Governor Scott has said that look if we're going to have a tax and regulate marijuana retail scheme the way Colorado and other places do we need to get the money from this to set up the whole regulatory infrastructure which will cost millions of dollars to get a state lab going and to have education and prevention for our youth and more public safety on the highways and all of which costs a ton of money. In fact the state tax commissioner estimated it will take at least a 26% tax on marijuana to raise this money just to pay for these expenses. No one anymore is talking about we're going to help pave the roads and teach our kids with marijuana money because the only question is will they be able to raise enough money with legal retail tax and regulate just to cover the cost of legalization. And the Senate bill says 10%, the House bill says 20% but the administration and their tax people have said we need at least 26%. So already the two bills that are in play right now would apparently not cover the costs of tax and regulate marijuana, the education, prevention, public safety and regulatory costs. So moving on to some other bills out of the marijuana realm and into the realm of harder drugs. There is a bill H-102 which would legalize so-called safe drug consumption programs. That would be like safe spaces to shoot up, needle exchanges. This would not only legalize these but would limit criminal liability or civil forfeiture for the users, for the staff and for the organizers of these programs would protect them from the government coming in saying well that's a legal activity and we're going to arrest you and seize your assets. This would be so that drug users would have a safe space to come and shoot up, get new needles, presumably not reusing the same dirty ones, get advice on treatment, receive assistance in case of an overdose. The idea is that they're going to do this anyway and so want to do it in a safe way as possible and leave open possibilities for treatment and for getting off the drugs. That's the benefit of it. Critics of it say that it really just in a way sort of legalizes and enables the practice as well. That it shouldn't be, should not be making it easier. I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other but I'm just saying that this bill would definitely legalize that, set it up, make it doable. Also this one, this one's interesting folks, H-151 would limit the forfeiture of assets of accused criminals, organized crime criminals including drug dealers by eliminating judicial forfeiture in the case of plea bargains. So judges could only seize the property of a convicted person if the alleged perpetrator not always but often a drug dealer is convicted of the underlying offense. But if the accused criminal cops to a lesser plea there could be no forfeiture. So you have a situation where you have someone who's arrested for being a drug dealer. And he's got maybe a nice home, he's got a nice boat, he's got a car, his ill-gotten gains as it were and the prosecutor has got a good case against him but they know that boy if they just plead to a somewhat reduced charge they know he's going to plead guilty and they won't have to go through the time and expense and the possibility that maybe the jury sides with, sides with them. It's an easier thing to do, let's just, let's just plea this out. Well, if you plea it out no forfeiture of assets, this law says, can't do that. So makes the, makes the police and the judges work harder and in a way kind of protects the assets of the convicted drug criminal. The other thing about this is a lot of people know that what happens to these assets once they're seized? Well, a lot of the benefits of that, the proceeds goes, go to law enforcement. They go back to our police and our prosecutors and our law enforcement system that is doing their best to limit and stop drug crime. And they take these proceeds and sometimes they actually use the vehicles themselves. Sometimes they sell them and taxpayer burden is greatly relieved because the drug dealer no longer has his ill-gotten gains, his or her ill-gotten gains, and instead has been, that's been converted to the benefit of law enforcement of keeping people safe. Well, this law, this bill H-151 would say no more of that. The police don't get these assets anymore.  They go to the state of Vermont General Fund, which is overseen by the Vermont legislature. So a lot of the bills aimed at reducing drug crimes, they say, look, we're just trying to help these poor addicts who are caught in this and we're trying to help them not just send them away to jail, but help them get treatment, maybe have them approach police and the authorities without a threat of being arrested quite so much and actually looking for help. This bill would really seem more to be aimed at just nor the way I can really see this except that a drug dealer could plead to a lesser charge and not have his car, boat, house seized. It seems to benefit the bigger fish. So I'd like to know more about that and I think maybe Vermonters would too. So another bill, H-103, would restructure drug possession laws to make possession of marijuana, cocaine, LSD, and other illegal drugs a misdemeanor and possession with intent to sell as a felony. So right now, possession of these hard drugs is a felony. This bill would say, nope, not a felony because as I mentioned before, there's a real feeling that if you remove the barrier of the felony, that the drug user is more likely to seek help from the system, from police, from whomever, rather than hiding and suffering in the shadows. And I guess, I don't know, it'd be interesting to see how that does play out. There's another angle here though, is that the backers of turning these felonies into misdemeanors also for several years have been promoting the idea of not just misdemeanors but decriminalization of possession of all hard drugs. Couple years ago, the same supporters who were backing H-103 in a House Judiciary meeting a couple weeks ago, couple years ago they were in House Judiciary talking about how great it is that Portugal, for example, has completely decriminalized its hard drug laws. So there's a lot of concern whenever you're talking about drug reform of the slippery slope. We saw it with marijuana. It went from being a crime to medical marijuana, to decriminalization, to simple possession, and now this year possibly to selling it on in stores. And there are people who do wonder if the same thing may be happening with hard drugs. That moving from a felony to a misdemeanor in this bill and perhaps eventually to decriminalization and who knows maybe complete legalization. There's another bill along those lines. H-182 would transition our correction system to mental health rehab clinics, which in a way sort of makes sense that if you are going to completely legalize or decriminalize drug use and if a lot of our criminals are in having to do with the drug trade, either possession or sales or whatever, if that's why they're in jail then if you're going to stop looking at this as a crime and more as an addiction that needs to be treated and it's a mental health problem that they need help with, then it does sort of make sense to transition your correction system to a mental health facility. Of course there are many other crimes and I think no one is saying that you're going to just completely get rid of jails and open mental health clinics but I think they're moving in that trend and that may be one reason why is that the whole emphasis on treating drugs as a crime may be changing and therefore your correction system needs to change too. And there's a sort of an ironic ending to this I think. I was in the state house this morning and a senator was walking down the stairs and she knew that I had been very active in stopping smoking in the workplace for example years ago smoking in the workplace laws and she looks at me and says hey we're working together again. I said really what are you talking about? She said well we're working on getting the smoking age, tobacco, smoking age raised from 18 to 21 and which I'm not saying right or wrong on that but I do know the rationale that they give is that brains of 18 to 21 year olds are still developing, the judgment is still in process and a lot of young people start smoking, tobacco between the age of 18 and 21 therefore let's just make the sale of it illegal because maybe they'll smoke it less but the same thinking does not seem to apply quite as well with marijuana and other drugs and in one case they're making the law tougher because they want to discourage it with tobacco but that doesn't quite seem to be playing out with the marijuana and maybe even other drugs as well. So that's the latest I have for you these are some of the bills that are in the judiciary committee doesn't mean that they're all going to get passed doesn't really mean that any of them will be passed into law that's what the committee hearings are for that's what the votes on the floor of the house and the senator for and then the governor finally has to decide whether he wants to veto something or sign it or just let it pass into law there's a lot that has to happen between now and then but it all starts with a bill being introduced and certainly the tenor of the bills that have been introduced about drug use are going towards making it less of a crime making it more legal and we'll see where it goes this is guy page from on state house headliners thank you for listening.