here with a new vision media group, and who are you? I'm Elliot Shlam, the CEO. And what are we looking at here? This is a new and very different reflective or trans-selective display technology. It's made with very thin films of polymer and is appropriate for billboards and outdoor signage. It can basically function like an LED, but at one-tenth the power, one-tenth the cost, and one-tenth the weight. One-tenth the power, one-tenth the weight. And one-seventh the cost. LED backlight. Well, LED billboards. LED. So, you know, there are billboards all around the country now, made of LEDs that change their messages, so the owners of the billboards make a lot of money and leasing time on the billboards. But they're very expensive, and they consume enormous amounts of power, and they're heavy, the installation is difficult, maintenance is difficult. It's just paper that's being lit up, right? Well, the LEDs emit light. They're like the red light on your camera. They actually emit light, and they glow. Many communities don't like them at night. Like what they have on Times Square? Like what they have at Times Square. Exactly like what they have at Times Square. So this is the next generation of that? This, we hope, is the next generation of that. It is, as I said, much less expensive, consumes much less power, and is not as obnoxious to the neighborhood in that regard. It can be installed in standard billboards now. It doesn't even need new installations, so we hope it'll make a big difference. So does your company develop this? My company developed this. We have patent coverage on it. And where are you based? We're in New Jersey, in Monmouth County. Our main product is dynamic energy-efficient windows. We use the same technology to incorporate between the glass and residential and commercial windows. Is this what's similar to here? What is this about? This is the actual display panel. All those little aluminum lines are actually foils of polymer that are rolled up. And when you put a voltage on them, they roll out. So they function like pixels, either allowing light through or not allowing light through. So you can define the backlight and the color filter in any way you want. When the sun is out, you don't need to emit any light because it's reflected. When the sun goes down, you'd use a very inexpensive fluorescent backlight to illuminate it to the degree that you want to illuminate it. So how many pixels are here? There's about 2,000 there. Each of those little squares is a pixel. Well, it's a 3 by 5 by 7 ratio. So I don't know. I haven't calculated that. Is it like 30 by 50 or something? But I'm just guessing. I don't know. Approximately. And then that's exactly what you see here. Advertising on a big scale. Well, no, this is just a demonstrator. The way the LED billboards are made is they're tiled. You have a number of tiles that might be 12 inches or 18 inches, and you actually mesh them together. It's called tiling. And that's how you get that big billboard. You can't build something like that all in one piece. So you would have tiles of these? You would have tiles of these very much like you'd have tiles of LEDs. And they can have as much bright advertising content? You don't need it as bright because you're not competing with the sun. LEDs compete with the sun. So they have to get very, very, very bright in order to be able to see them with the sun shining on. They need 7,000 nits, which is extremely bright. In this case, because it's reflective, it uses the sun. It reflects the sun. So it's much, much more energy efficient than LEDs. So how would you call it? Well, we have a technical name for it. It probably needs a better name. It's called electro-polymeric display because it uses polymer material and it's electronic. But we need to catch your name than that, which we don't have. So EPD? EPD. This is an EPD color. How many colors do you have? Well, it's just three basic colors, red, blue, and green. And depending on how you turn the pixels on and off, of course, you can create many more colors. But the fundamental colors, for many display technologies, red, blue, or green. So how soon are we going to see billboards and Times Square with this? Well, not soon enough. Not clear. We're actually looking to license this technology to someone who has to wear with all to really take it and run with it. Our company isn't large enough to really go into a high-scale manufacturing of it. So how long have you been working on this? Well, we've been working on the technology for quite a few years. We've been applying it to Windows, as I said. But lately, we've just made this demonstrated showing how applicable it is to billboards and signage. So we're hoping someone here at the show might see it and get an interest. Because if it's seventh the cost, that should be the factor right here. Power consumption is the biggest cost also. Yes, it has tremendous advantages. Of course, there's still engineering work that has to go into it. But it has tremendous advantages over LEDs. How about competition, potentially, from, would it be e-ink or some other? Well, e-ink has been around for a while. They have excellent technology. I don't think they have the full range of colors that this technology has. And I'm just not sure if they can compete in this particular marketplace. They've been around for a while, but I'm not aware that there's any e-ink signage out there at this time. So if somebody comes with a lot of money, it can be done very quickly, right? I think so, yes. And where would it be manufactured, anywhere? Anywhere, anywhere around the world. It's easy to manufacture.


The Jack Benny program, presented by Lucky Strike. Six-day-body! Mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung. Doo-doo-doo-doo. Mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung-mung. It's all American! Lucky's pay more! To give you a cigarette that's finer, milder, more enjoyable. Lucky's pay more! Lucky's pay millions of dollars more than official Parity Prices for fine tobacco. And the men who really know tobacco, the tobacco experts can see the makers of Lucky Strike consistently select and buy that fine, that light that naturally mild tobacco yes at auction after auction when a basket of really fine tobacco is offered for sale as the price climbs up and up as the final bid is made the top bid time it again you'll hear this old American and another basket of really superior tobacco goes to the makers of lucky strike no wonder LS MFT LS MFT lucky strike means fine tobacco fine tobacco that means a milder more enjoyable cigarette for you so smoke that smoke of fine tobacco lucky strike yes for more real deep down smoking enjoyment light up a lucky you'll agree in all the world there's no finer cigarette than lucky strike lucky strike program starring Jack Benny with Mary Livingston Phil Harris Rochester Dynasty and yours truly down will ladies and gentlemen after suffering from a bad cold for several weeks Jack Benny went to the hospital for a nasal operation today he's home again recuperating as we look in Rochester is tidying up the house gee it's good to have the boss home again he put off this operation for a long time but when we got to the hospital he sure was brave I'll always remember the smile he gave me as those foreign nurses dragged him up the stairs well I better finish unpacking his things say what's this well the boss's diary he must have taken it to the hospital with him I wonder if I ought to read it oh why not who am I kidding after all I read his diary he reads mine I pity him he envies me see what he has to say here's the first entry I'm now in the hospital I entered this morning for a mind next to me just had a baby or to a semi-private room it's cozy here he has cold feet just now why the boss didn't get a private room after all he owns the hospital October 18th they gave me some ether and put me to sleep I had the most wonderful dream I dreamed that I was the maid in Ciro's powder room operation was over the nurse was standing behind me stroking my hair I'm so glad I remembered to bring it who wears that I had my first visitor it was Rochester he told me that since I've been in the hospital my phone has been ringing constantly at home he said there have been calls from Lana Turner and Sheridan and Paulette Goddard and they all told Rochester to send me their love the way I lie to keep that old man happy since the operation however I was still sick from the ether and couldn't eat a thing but the man in the next bed was very hungry and fortunately I had changed for a $5 bill I mean fortunately he's got the only pajamas I ever saw with a hip pocket I felt so good and was such a beautiful day I decided to walk home as I started up Santa Monica Boulevard people kept looking at me and smiling I smiled back till I realized I was still wearing my nightie as I lit a candle and in the next three blocks I sold 28 fisktimes mr. Benny's diary is always the same dull but clean room and see if he wants anything well mr. Benny how are you feeling oh fine fine Rochester it's amazing how much better I am since I had that obstruction removed from my nose how long were you in the operating room 28 minutes and 41 seconds my producer timed it anyway I sure feel a lot come in oh hello Mary hello Jack gee you look great how you feel wonderful Mary come here and give me a great big kiss okay Jack you've never kissed me that long before I can breathe through my nose now and that was some kiss wasn't Mary Mary what are you staring at me for are you sure the only thing they gave you at the hospital was ether that's all I'm just that the operation made a new man out of me honestly Mary that doctor Langley is a miracle worker you know that for four weeks I could hardly breathe or talk and I think he took me when I felt so low and miserable and by his great surgical skill made me feel absolutely wonderful how much did he charge you for the operation a hundred dollars dirty crook but Jack that doesn't sound like too much money for an operation operation only took 28 minutes and 41 seconds you realize that at that rate he's being paid over $200 an hour but Jack he probably doesn't do more than one of those operations a month well it's my fault if he can't get steady work why charge me Jack take it easy calm down yeah you got a cigarette Mary just a minute and I'll see I know I got a package in here I better dump everything out on the table Mary's that your purse or are you moving here's a cigarette Jack thanks you know Mary's funny we were on the radio and I wanted a cigarette I'd say Mary have you got a lucky strike but here in my house I just asked for a cigarette we know it's a lucky strike yeah yeah oh yes yes get the bottle will your Rochester bottle yes Mary the doctor thought I ought to take a little brandy every three hours is a stimulant handed me Rochester I'll open it myself thanks there hello hey Jackson did you just open the bottle of brandy yes Phil I did but how do I want to know how did he smell it all the way over in Encino you know Mary sometimes I come in here I am Jackson brought my own glass well how'd you get over here from your house so fast well I would have been here sooner but I was in my underwear when I phoned I live in well come on Jackson lift that glass tilt that bottle just a minute Phil here there's some trick here someplace now explain to me how you could possibly explain it to you later later later look while I'm here I want to ask you something will it be all right if I miss rehearsal I'd like to fly home to Mississippi and see my alma mater play football football yeah it's their traditional game do what did he take against Hamhawk high do what did he take and Hamhawk high tell me Philip in which of these great institutions of learning did you matriculate Jackson please Mary's here I mean which one of those high schools did you attend oh well I went to do what did he take but but I didn't graduate no Phil I was always under the impression that you were a Phi Beta Kappa man yeah but don't baddie it about let it be our little secret till every time you open your mouth your secret is safe and it's true yeah anyway Jackson it's it's good to see you looking so so long kids see you later where you going what you're hurry Remly just opened a bottle of bourbon in Glendale and understand how he got here from Encino and if that's Phil calling from Glendale hello hello Jack this is Don how you feeling oh fine Don I haven't felt so good in years although as a result of the operation I didn't lose about eight pounds well I wouldn't worry about it Jack you gain it back I guess oh you know once when I was in the hospital I lost 40 46 pounds well down 46 pounds off you is nothing nothing I was three weeks old at the time oh now Jack I know you're confined to your house today but I just called to tell you that the sportsman quartet is going to be on the air in about 10 minutes and I thought you might like to hear them they're dedicating their song to you to me oh thanks Don I'm glad you told me I'll be sure to listen in thanks again you're welcome Jack see you later Don Don what was that the phone booth my girdle broke very good to let yourself go once in a while so long Don oh Mary remind me to listen to the sportsman where the quarter they'll be on the air in about 10 minutes what station oh my goodness I forgot the ass down but I'll find it yeah I hope I feel well enough to go to the Copeland Grove to tonight for the sportsman's opening oh Jack you sit down I'll get it hello Danny hi Mary come on in it wait a minute it isn't cold today what are you wearing that muffler and heavy overcoat I rode over on my bicycle and I don't want to catch pneumonia now Dennis what is riding in your bicycle got to do with pneumonia there's a leak in the front tire and every time it comes around it blows on me from you that sounds logical come on in who is it Mary you'll be sorry oh come on in Dennis hi again hello mr.  Kitzel certainly nicely dropping to see me I want to thank you for visiting me in the hospital well I believe in the old philosophy if you can't be friendly when the weather is bad don't say hello in the sunshine I know it should be yeah mr. Benny if you had taken care of your cold maybe you wouldn't have had to go to the hospital no no mr. Kitzel the cold had nothing to do with it mr. be done Billy the lockhole the last day for my wife caught a cold and it gave a laryngitis laryngitis that was six months ago and she still can't talk about we spell my good why don't you do something about it if she starts to get better I will but seriously mr.  Kitzel yeah how are you feeling miss living stone oh i'm fine thank you by the way mr.  Benny I just wanted to wish you good health and now I got to be running along well goodbye mr. Kitzel and thanks for dropping in you're welcome and as they say in front let me out I was here what a nice guy visited me at the hospital and then he came here at the house oh Jack you told me to remind you want to hear the sports van cartel oh yes yes they're singing about me too I almost forgot I better turn on the radio and find that station ladies who are overweight do you have careless hips when you can reduce immediately no drugs no extra back into our buzz saw the ladies program I don't want that I didn't squeal that isn't it either what program is this let me get that program this may be it station is that quartet that's not it either oh that's the same thing I want to get the station with a quartet can I get the quartet I want to don meant today I guess the stranger saw her first this is it Mary this is it I'd like to repeat the prizes we're giving away in our giant jackpot one package of lifesavers and a real genuinely I don't know I didn't get it either we're also giving away a dr. Scholl's foot pad one free dancing lesson at Arthur Murray's I don't know it sounded like crock and soom he's a can of stout of shoelaces and a lifetime supply of that new miracle drug sulphur beautiful drug I hope the person who wins it is sick and now for us Mr. Benny what's a crock and soom wow I want to hear this this week we are adding to our list 825 that's wonderful paired assisted by Mel Blank Mel Blank we'll sing a number from that new picked Sunny Boy and it's dedicated to Jack Benny I knew Mel Blank would get into that I knew her I'm upon our knee Jackie boy though you're 53 Jackie boy I'm 39 we've no way of just how old you're growing but we love you so speeding rigs I thought they're singing about me that's Mel Mel Blank I know that's Mel is lucky imagine winning a $15,000 crock and soom Mary turn it off there's nothing else on the radio tonight well is anything good on television Rochester call up Sears Roebuck television to pop and you call them last week oh yes it must be some company that it hasn't given us a demonstration yet maybe I ought to I don't get it you don't marry I'm glad down call me about the court head well this way gentlemen who is it Rochester it's the boys from the Beverly Hills Beaver Club oh Joey Stevie Butch come on in hello certainly nice you kids to pay me this visit go ahead Joey read the speech I'm looking for speech well here it is Mr. Benny your brother Beavers held a meeting and voted that this committee pay you a visit for four reasons to welcome you home from the hospital to wish you a rapid recovery to invite you to our annual picnic your dues are three months behind well that was just an oversight I'll take care of it and Mr. Benny we'd like to make a request in regards to the picnic a request yes our last picnic didn't turn out so good lost 80 cents yeah so we thought it might help if you lowered the price of the sandwiches the dues I'll pay but the sandwich yeah Mary I was going to say the dues I'll pay but the sandwiches I've given for nothing by the way boys you know Ms. Livingston oh sure we have a picture of her in our clubhouse a picture of me yeah you are bordered as the girl who can make us take cod live royal and like it well thanks fellas and boys this is Dennis Day gee you see the Dennis Day who sings on the radio that's him gee Mr. Day can I shake your hand sure can I shake your hand too certainly butch butch it's Dennis Day why don't you shake out with him I'm a Sinatra man butch that wasn't nice to say in front of Dennis oh that's all right Mr. Benny Franky sends me too he does yeah he's too weak to go himself Dennis please say Mr. Benny what was it you went to the hospital for oh I had an operation but I'm home now and everything is fine oh what are you thinking about Joey well my mother once went to the hospital when she came home she brought me a little brother ah well that was nice and then she went to the hospital again and when she came home she brought me a little sister wow say doi your mother went to the hospital again last week didn't she yeah but when she came home she didn't bring me nothing oh it's too bad Joey what did you want a turtle well maybe next time hey boss this is your first day home and you've been up and around for a while so what don't you think you ought to take a little nap yeah I guess you're right Rochester well I'm often glad you dropped in fellow Beavers I appreciate it we'll run along now Mr. Benny we'll see you at the next meeting well I don't know if I'll be able to make it Stevie you see I've had this trouble with my nose and that's why I was operated on I was in the hospital for five days and be at least another week before I can leave the house a little cold he makes a big thing out of you say something but he didn't see anything come on fellas let's go gee they're nice boys Jack I think I'll run along too be too much for Benny okay I'm glad you came over kid so long Mary goodbye Dennis bye Jack that's nice to be home again Rochester and you know it isn't bad being sick once in a while either people are so nice to yeah now come on boss let me help you upstairs no no Rochester I'll go in the other room and stretch out on the couch if I fall asleep waking in time for dinner yes sir now take it easy and don't exert yourself I won't now let's see where's the oh here it is oh to give you a finer cigarette a milder more enjoyable cigarette luckies pay more yes at the tobacco auctions at market after market luckies pay millions of dollars more than official parity prices for fine tobacco LS MFT LS MFT lucky strike means fine tobacco fine ripe mild tobacco that gives you more far more real deep down smoking enjoyment no wonder a recent survey reveals more independent tobacco experts auctioneers buyers and warehouses smoke lucky strike regularly then the next two leading brands combine and now listen to what mr. Doug Dudley of Clinton North Carolina recently said about his experience at the tobacco auction in my 12 years as a tobacco auctioneer I've sold about 180 million pounds of tobacco and season after season I've seen the makers of lucky strike by fine ripe tobacco tobacco that stops for mild and mellow smoking I've smoked luckies myself for 10 years so for your own real deep down smoking enjoyment smoke the smoke tobacco expert smoke lucky strike remember there's more for you in a lucky because luckies pay more millions of dollars more than official parity prices for fine tobacco they know will give you a finer milder more enjoyable cigarette good reason to make your next carton lucky strike boss you to the nice nap do you want me to get you something to eat no Rochester I don't think so answers will you please hello yes he's feeling much better mr. Lamar yes ma'am I'll tell him thanks for calling that was sweet oh that Rochester had a Lamar no no boss that was Dorothy oh you mean Dorothy Lamour no Dorothy Lamar she's the cook next door well she works for the Coleman's Ronnie probably wants to know how I'm getting along you'll make something out of it won't you boys that's undoubtedly what it was good night folks be sure to hear Dennis Day and the day in the life of Dennis Day stay tuned for the Amos Nandish always follows immediately this is CBS the Columbia Broadcasting System


Coming up on DTNS, Bose wants to come to your house to silence the noise. A new handheld to play Game Boy cartridges and why world leaders won't be treated the same as you by Twitter. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, October 16th, 2019 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Feline, I'm Sarah Lane. And Salt Lake City, you, Tom Scott Johnson. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. We were just talking about radio edits of songs and all kinds of cool stuff on Good Day Internet. If you want to hang out with us a little more each day, hear what we have to say about the wider world a little bit or extended discussions of technology news. You got to get Good Day Internet by becoming a member at Patreon.com slash DTNS. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. The Federal Communications Commission formally approved the merger between T-Mobile and Sprint, an FCC official told The Verge earlier today. Now the companies must deal with a bipartisan coalition of state attorneys general who are suing to block the deal. Sprint and T-Mobile both said they won't close the merger until that lawsuit is resolved. Good luck to them. Intel is buying Toronto-based Pivot Technology Solutions smart edge software for $27 million to help Intel split up data and store it closer to users to make devices work faster. Smart Edge is designed to run on Intel chips, which Intel intends to sell in 5G-capable equipment. The UK has decided not to go through with a plan to require internet users to verify their age in order to view adult content on the web. Or another way of saying this, the UK has decided not to go through with a plan to require kids to borrow IDs from adults in order to view adult content on the web. After delaying the scheme several times, the UK's digital secretary, Nicky Morgan, said the government will focus on protecting children online through our proposed online harms regulatory regime. For some of the older people in the audience who might remember Yahoo Groups, you should know something. Starting on October 21st, you will no longer be able to upload content to Yahoo Groups. That's right. I know. Sit down. Take a glass of water. Starting December 14th, all previously posted content to Yahoo Groups will also be removed. You can download your Yahoo Groups posts using the privacy dashboard. Yeah. I'm not joking when I say this. I put in my request to download my Yahoo Groups content because there's some early 2000s content that I might be sentimental about in there. And still waiting. Still waiting for Yahoo to tell me, yep, still haven't got a... Yeah. You know, I couldn't even really laugh about it. I was like, I might have content on Yahoo Groups. I should check this. I don't think I ever did once, but I know of. I don't think so. All right. Let's talk a little more about meeting up in real life, Scott. Yeah. Let's talk about LinkedIn, not Yahoo Groups. LinkedIn wants to try networking in the real world. They're already a big social network. How about in the real world with a new free tool called Events, which lets users plan, announce and invite others to meetups and get together. Events will appear as a menu item and is first rolling out in English speaking countries October 17th with other markets to follow.  There's a tool to do it. Yeah. I mean, at first my reaction was, oh, this is interesting. A social network really steering into real life meetups, which is important and a good way to make connections stronger.  But the more I thought about it, the more I realized, well, this is just something LinkedIn users were already doing. And LinkedIn is creating a way for them to do it easier, which, wow. A member when that's what social networks were mostly talked about for is taking things that users wanted and making features out of them. Well, there are several tools to, you know, put together and get together. I don't know. Eventbrite comes to mind. Sure, sure.  So the fact that LinkedIn is offering this tool is, I mean, frankly, I'm surprised that they didn't do it sooner. The company obviously realized that there are enough business related and focused events that were happening with users within the platform that it was something that they should just offer. Yeah, it makes sense to me as someone who's ran a few events over the last 10 years and knows what it can be like on all sort of aspects of it. This seems like a cool thing for them to do. The other option is you have, you know, Twitch, you could argue as a social network and they have TwitchCon. You have big social groups that gather around the thing they're social with, but this feels like the right plan for them. Get the tool into people's hands. They're going to make their own events. They're going to go to the LinkedIn event. There's no annual LinkedIn show that I'm aware of. So, yeah, this is a good tool to put into people's hands because, to be honest, having run a bunch of these, it's really hard. It's freaking hard. And all the help you can get through tools like this, the better, I say. They announced its third quarter revenue was up 27% thanks to strong smartphone shipments prior to the enactment of U.S. trade restrictions in May. The U.S. has allowed some exemptions to the restrictions that expire in November, but not all that technology is exempt. For instance, the Mate 30 smartphone, which was just announced last month, can't run the Google version of Android. Still, the company shipped to 185 million smartphones so far this year, which strategy analytics estimates means about a 29% rise in Q3. That is slower growth. It's big growth, but it's slower growth than Huawei has had. It seems like we haven't quite seen the effect of the trade restrictions hit for several reasons. One is this quarter partially took place before the restrictions went into effect. Two, in China, they're seeing increased sales from people who want to support their homeland business. And three, they can still build phones with stuff in their inventory and with some of these exemptions. So at an event in Zurich, Huawei showed off its new 5G antennas for the Blade AAU base station. The new antenna is double bandwidth and boost power output while weighing less and using less power. And Huawei says it's shipped 400,000 of those base stations so far this year and estimates 56 carriers worldwide have deployed its new equipment. Part of the reason for those trade restrictions was to get people to stop buying this kind of equipment from Huawei. It does not seem to have had an effect yet. Well, back in August, I believe that Huawei said we may be $10 billion shorter than what would have been normal for us. The company, you know, it sounds like this third quarter earnings call, which was, it wasn't a full earnings report. There was certain earnings that were reported. Others not for obvious reasons, I suppose. But it sounds like the company is like, okay, we might not be in as bad of shape as we thought we'd be, but we're still going to be down on the year. Well, yeah, because you got to get on the other side of the actual trade restrictions and whether or not those make a dent or not is super curious, right? Like, will we get to the end of all this and go, oh, yeah, those really messed them up. They're going to have to change course or whatever. Or are we going to find out, nah, they made ways around it, shipped more around the world and hardly shipping here. Like trade restrictions in the US big deal. Like I'm actually really curious about that to see if that ends up being that way or if, you know, if this really does hurt them in the long run. Well, look, these trade restrictions could have upended them right away like it did ZTE. We have something to compare it to ZTE paused operations and had to come to the table and agree to restrictions. It has not done the same to Huawei. That's what this tells us. It doesn't tell us that these trade restrictions aren't going to have an effect. And like you say, Sarah, that effect is already being anticipated by Huawei itself. So it's just sort of a milestone along the route. Like said, who knows if this goes away. Let's say China and the US, you know, even though the US says this has nothing to do with tariffs. Let's say they do come to an agreement on trade. Maybe suddenly this restriction gets lifted. We'll see. It may not. May not. All right. Here's everyone's favorite story of the week or the day rather. Some users of Bose quiet comfort 35 to headphones noticed a recent firmware update reduced the effectiveness of noise cancellation. Whole point of those headphones is, well, one of the main features is that some of those users downgraded the firmware to bring noise canceling back up to snuff. But Bose has blocked the ability to downgrade citing security concerns. Instead, Bose engineers are visiting the houses of Bose users trying to figure out what the heck is wrong since they can't replicate the problem in the lab. So the Bose. So, so Bose says it has modified how users update firmware, but hasn't identified the problem. Users within a reasonable distance of Bose's Farmingham, Massachusetts headquarters can apply for a visit.  Well, I mean, okay, how, how many times have we all been like, I'm sorry you're having this issue, but I can't replicate it on my end all the time. Happens all the time. So the fact that the company is like, can we come and like, put your headphones on and try to figure out what's happening. Like, yeah, we'll come a day's drive. Yeah, that sort of Upper East Eastern State area, whatever you call it. But, but yeah, it's, you know, I kind of had to laugh when I read this this morning, but at the same time, these are not cheap headphones and users saying, whoa, something's wrong after the firmware update. No, I'm going back and the company saying, well, no, you can't for security reasons, which is probably well within the rights of the company to do that. They probably have good reasons to say that.  So what else are you going to do? It makes me want to know. Well, I want to know the results of this because how much placebo effect is going on when people hear about the brand of thing they have. And someone says, Oh, there's this problem. Sometimes we're pretty good at saying, Hey, my battery life does seem terrible. I must be. Yeah, this is my noise very well either. I read on a forum that the new firmware upgrade causes noise canceling not to work. And I just did the firmware upgrade. So I'm going to see if it doesn't work. Right. It's, it's a selection bias. You start to look for things like, Hey, I bet I couldn't have heard that before. I wonder how much of it is that too, especially because they're going to people's houses and all they've found so far as an oddity in the way firmware upgrades are delivered, which wasn't the problem. I mean, great. They found that, but good on Bose for taking the extra step to say, you know what, we need to figure this out. It's not that we don't believe you. We want to find out what's going on here and doing the legwork literally to make that happen. Yeah, I'd give him dinner. If I lived around those guys, I'd make all dinner.  I was about to say, yeah, if I lived in the area and I had these headphones, which I don't, I'd be like, please come to my house. Like I want to know more about you. I want to know what questions you asked me. Plus we're at the next Wednesday's DTNS, multiple Bose engineers reporting food poisoning after being set for dinner. Oh yeah, don't eat the lobster beans. The Hollywood Reporter reports that Apple's upcoming Apple TV Plus service has outspent its initially projected $1 billion annual content budget. Sources say that Jennifer Aniston, the vehicle, the Jennifer Aniston vehicle morning show cost $15 million and an episode for a total of $300 million for two seasons total with $2 million in episode fees that producers Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston negotiated. Okay. Well, CE, starring Jason Momoa, is said to cost $240 million for two seasons. You know, it's a lot of money. Apple, while not banning explicit content outright, has reportedly said such content must be in service of the storyline and all projects should be in line with Apple's aspirational brand identity. Yeah, we've heard that before. We've actually talked about that on the show before, the sort of uneasy tension between creatives and Apple saying, well, it's okay to be edgy, but only in the Apple way. Right? Like there's some learning going on between Apple and what these folks want to do. A lot of this stuff about the amount of money they're spending, though, goes the other way as well. There's a quote later in the same Hollywood reporter article where they're like, I can't believe they're not trying to outspend Netflix. Sure. In fact, maybe they should just buy Netflix, which Netflix is not going to sell itself. Netflix is not up for sale. They don't want to buy. They don't want to be bought by anybody. But everyone keeps thinking Apple should buy someone instead of creating it themselves because they're running into all these bumps in the road. Yeah, but we talked pre-show about how welcome to Hollywood, like the bumps in the road are not uncommon. They are only uncommon because we're talking about Apple in the context of here's the big tech company fronting the money and they don't really have a huge past of experience in this particular industry. And that what's the difference between this and hearing about directors falling off for projects, movie scripts getting scrapped and started over, movie that was supposed to come out five years ago, got shelved and now finally out of the end. Like this is just Hollywood. It's same old same. And yeah, when you're talking about Apple, one of the richest companies in the world, the numbers, yes, for the rest of us, $300 million is a lot for Apple dropping the bucket. So that's not really the issue. It's a drop in the bucket, too. I mean, that's cost. That's absolutely right. I think it's a little bit more of, OK, well, what is going on behind the scenes? And is there something wrong with Apple as a company at the helm of making sure that the stuff, you know, comes to the point where the rest of us can watch it? I have a feeling it's the same bumps in the road that every other network deals with every other production house. Everybody's got to deal with this stuff. And I think it's probably no different again, except for the fact that it's Apple and everyone wants to go. Ooh, maybe the tech companies get too fast. Maybe they shouldn't have gotten into the content booths. Right. I mean, I think the same. Also in this Hollywood reporter article, there's a top producer who worked with company with the company saying the biggest problem is Apple's insistence that the industry adapt to them and not the other way around. Whereas Edward Kitsis, who has been brought in to work on I think the amazing stories project said while they're a new network, they're really not meaning from top to bottom. Everyone we dealt with was a pro with tons of studio and or network experience, some of whom we had actually worked with back at our ABC days. It's not like you have like Johnny Ive and they're trying to produce a TV show. Like they hired actual people from the business. It's not like they called down or down a couple of floors and said, Hey, the guys that used to make the 16 pin connector for the old iPod bring them up here. We got a new job for them. Like totally analog, a company that makes modern takes on classic video game consoles announced their next model will be the analog pocket at launch. The pocket will play cartridges from Game Boy, Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance. Eventually analog will put out adapters for the Game Gear Neo Geo pocket color. And they want to keep doing more. The goal is eventually support all handheld game systems, at least classic ones. The pocket has a 665 PPI LCD display with a 1600 by 1440 resolution and a built-in backlight plus USB C for charging an SD card slot, a headphone jack and set to launch in 2020 for $199.  I can get a switch for that. No, you can. And maybe you should. I think it's really important to kind of quantify what this is. This company is about two things. One, bringing really cool retro nostalgic stuff back to life in some way and creating preservation for those experiences, but also creating a bit of a premium. iconic device that you'll hold in your hand. It'll be the only kind that ever comes out this way. Nobody else is making these. Certainly Nintendo's not. And they've been able to do it in such a way that they've avoided lawsuits up to now. And they are, they want you to use cartridges that you already have or would procure through other ways. So they want you playing old Game Boy, Game Boy Advance and Game Boy Color Games.  This is a super sexy device. It reminded me, and I told Thomas this morning on this TMS segment, they remind me of watches. It's like watch culture. If you're into watches, you know you are and you're ready to get one. Otherwise, this sounds expensive and ridiculous to everybody else who's just happy buying whatever the current thing is. That's who this is for. And I might be that person. I don't know. I kind of want one. It's a good comparison. The watch community, if you're not into it, you're not into it. And there, you know, there's a lot about particularly retro gaming that I think is similar to that. If you're into it, you know you are and you'll be willing to plunk out a little bit of money. Yeah. And the goal, like you said, the goal of this is also historical preservation to encourage people to want to preserve these games by continuing to play them by making the cartridges usable so people are less likely to throw them away. Archive.org does a lot of work in this area as well. The analog and archiver are friends in that respect. They do collaborate on some stuff. So I think this is a great, this is a great project for making sure that we preserve some of our video gaming history. And this isn't the first one. Analog has done three consoles before as well. So this is just the latest effort. First time they've done mobile though. Hey, folks, if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, you need to subscribe to dailytechheadlines.com. Twitter made a post called World Leaders on Twitter, Principles and Approach, explaining that in cases involving a world leader, quote, we will err on the side of leaving content up if there's a clear public interest in doing so. This is in response to a lot of people claiming that a particular world leader they don't like, not only the one you're thinking of, but multiples out there shouldn't be allowed to break the rules. The post from Twitter said that a world leader would be subject to enforcement of the rules no matter what if they did one of the following.  So world leaders don't get a pass if they do any of those. That's the line. Twitter's like basically we will enforce the rules against them in certain situations. Here are examples. But Twitter announced it will not always remove something that breaks the rules in the interest of public discourse because silencing a world leader is a power that they don't feel they should exercise without really, really needing to. Twitter also announced it will no longer let users like, reply, share or retweet tweets sent by world leaders that do violate its rules if they're left up. So they're saying, look, we may know something broke the rules. We may decide that we're going to leave it up in the public interest, but we won't let you share it. We're only leaving it up as part of the public record. Users would still be allowed to retweet with comment in those cases. In other words, you can add your own comment and then retweet it. But you wouldn't be able to just blindly retweet it out there or add likes or reply or extend the thread, things like that. Now, there's a couple of things that strike me as important to understand where Twitter's coming from here. On the one hand, a lot of people may or may not realize that there are laws in the United States that treat public figures, particularly government figures, differently than they treat regular folks. Liable and slander are two examples. If I am going to prove liable or slander against a public figure, especially someone running for office or in office, there has to be a higher standard. The courts have said we want to err on the side of letting the public have commentary about their government and commentary about their public office candidates. So to prove liable and slander, you have to meet a higher standard for a public figure than you would against just any other person on the street. So they're treating public figures differently in the law for this same principle. Now, Twitter's using this in a different way, kind of in the way that we preserve presidential papers. It's against the rules for a president to not keep papers that are associated with how the president conducts the office so that later we can see history and also just understand how the government worked. It's part of the public record, even if it has to be classified for a particular amount of time. So Twitter's combining those two principles and saying we want the public to be able to see what the world leaders have said and we want it to be part of the record out there. We don't want it to be hidden and we don't want to be in the position of deciding what should be hidden and what shouldn't for a public leader. So we're drawing the line here and that's what this post was about today. It's pretty interesting. My brain immediately went because this is where I go, but it went to this thing about world leaders would be subject to the same enforcement of rules no matter what about terrorism, threatening violence and so on. And I looked at those and I thought, Oh, well, that just opens you up to talking in code or that just opens you up to saying it in a certain way or putting it in a quote and attributing it to somebody else. But really it's still a threat, even though the person who said it didn't actually have a tweet that you could track. Like there's a lot of ways you could dance around that stuff, but that's also true right now. It's totally true. And for anybody. So that's why I think I like this is because at least it's something and it feels like it's adhering to principles we already recognize as good governing principles of the exchange of information of the red, the readily available status status of information. Like all of that stuff I think is important and needs to be preserved. And so I like the way that they're doing it. I think it's better than not doing anything which is kind of what we have felt for a long time and you know, Twitter's right now very it's a hotbed of political discussion. If there ever was one Twitter's it. And it feels like Twitter just sort of sits back and, you know, strokes Jack's beard and doesn't do anything or not that they need to do anything, but they just don't say anything. It just like watching the chaos happen in a white room and, you know, sipping on whatever. I feel like this at least is them acknowledging that they know this is a thing that it's existential, that it's kind of tricky, that it's complicated and then trying to apply some logic to it and shocker. They thought about it. Right. There you go. In short, they thought about it and for whatever reason that gives me hope in all of this. I like it. What's interesting about this is, is what they have disallowed people to do. So the whole quote tweet or retweet with comment idea is not unlike just taking a screenshot of something and then adding your own, you know, witty banter and tweeting it like this is not going to stop anybody from spreading information. What it does do is keeps things from the top of algorithmic timelines, which Twitter is did themselves. Now you can you can go back and and and and opt out of that and go and and and have a timeline that's just, you know, based on time stamps, but I think that that is a big part of this as well as that Twitter understands that if you're savvy enough like you're actually not like stopping any spread of any information good or bad. Yeah. But but but it but it's the way that the you know the platform works in general. Yeah, I mean I think what Twitter is trying to say is we're not trying to police this we're not trying to we're not going to try to stop world leaders from deleting their tweets it's not their job to preserve things. What they're saying is, if we start deleting certain things from world world leaders, it will have a more harmful effect on the public interest than than not so we under we're acknowledging that someone who runs the United States of America, or Russia, or China is different than you are for me, and we have to recognize that treating their tweets differently is is just the way it is. So it's not perfect. They know that people can take screenshots and reshare in other ways, but it slows down resharing that stuff that they feel like they have to leave up so they're saying look. I believe certain things up that we wouldn't otherwise because we recognize these are special situations that these are these people are in different positions than most people, but at the same time we're going to do some things to try to slow that down from being spread so that we're preserving it there so people can see it without having it, you know, catch on like wildfire and at the same time saying hey if you threaten violence against an individual know you're not we are we are going to enforce action against it is a line that even a world leader will get some enforcement action against I feel like there's a good analog for people to remember it helped me understand this better, but it's the reverse that you talked about before if I go out and say of the US President eats babies. That is going to be more protected speech than me saying my next door neighbor is cooking and eating babies. You can feel the difference in your head. You're not sure why it's different, but you know it is. So I'm just saying all you simple heads like me are down on the ground trying to figure this out. Think of it that way and you'll go oh yeah, I mean obviously it is different. So be different also Daily Tech News show and some brilliant LLC does not advocate the eating of babies. That's their baby lobster pizza. Then really don't eat them. Trust me on that one. Thanks everybody who participates in our subreddit whether you eat lobster pizzas or not, you can submit stories and vote on them at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com. We're also on Facebook join our group. A lot of good discourse there as well. Facebook.com slash groups slash Daily Tech News show. So let's check in with Chris Christensen at the amateur traveler who has a tip that may save you from having to pack for your next trip. This is Chris Christensen from amateur traveler with another tech in travel minute. I found an app this week called Duffel D U F L which is for business travelers but not people like me. This is probably for people who travel in much nicer clothes than I do. It is a service that you can use where you send them clothes that they warehouse for you.  They will then ship them to your hotel in a suitcase. And then when you're done, they ship back to the warehouse and clean the clothes ready for your next trip. I can't imagine using this app personally especially because there's a $99 round trip fee each time you use it plus a $10 fee each month.  I'm Chris Christensen from amateur traveler. We don't have a lot of time left in the show but I did want to acknowledge that Dan Campos gave us an on the street report from Mexico City about Uber acquiring Cornershop after Mexico blocked Walmart. He said, while Cornershop is only present in 10 cities in Mexico, it could have solved one of Walmart's main problems and since the sales overlapped, Mexico said you can't do that. But it makes more sense for Uber because Uber isn't even the number one ride sharing service. Didi and Beat have more market share in Mexico than Uber and they don't offer food delivery or fresh good delivery yet in Mexico anyway. So Uber buying Cornershop there makes sense. Thank you Dan. And a shout out to patrons at our master and grandmaster levels including James P. Callison, Juan D. Hernandez and Jonathan Price. Thanks to all of our patrons. Also thanks to Scott Johnson for being with us today. Scott, what's new in your world? Oh man. Well, I'm all about that little weird Game Boy coming out. No, that's not true. I am thinking about it kind of obsessively. But if you want to find out what I'm obsessive about and you like podcasting, head on over to frogpants.com. There's a whole podcast section with lots and lots of shows. You're bound to find something you like. You want to hear a bunch of commentary on the weird blizzard happenings lately? Well, I look no further than that, especially the instance we go deep on that and probably will for some time now. So enjoy and have fun over there. Also find me on Twitter. I'm at Scott Johnson. We have new Patreon rewards. Become a member of DTNS and get all kinds of cool stuff. Roger's working on a column. I'll have an editor's desk this week about what we did Monday as far as putting a different kind of episode out at DTNS. There's all kinds of cool stuff you get as a reward for supporting the show. One reason for the support the show, though, is that you get value out of it, but we like to thank people for it. And in fact, on November 1st, everybody who is at the $2 level or above will get a PDF copy of the official DTNS Internet cookbook with recipes from the show host and some listeners. So sign up now at patreon.com slash DTNS. If you have feedback for us, we'd love to hear it. Our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We're also live Monday through Friday, 4.30 p.m. Eastern, 2030 UTC. And you can find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live. Back tomorrow with Justin Robert Young. Talk to you then.


U.S. Army soldiers and NATO partners earn highly coveted expert badges. Vilsek, Germany, U.S. soldiers and NATO partners, participated in an event known as EAP. The Second Cavalry Regiment hosted and provided the opportunity, training, and evaluations necessary for candidates to receive the expert infantry badge, expert soldier badge, and expert field medical badge. Being in your own head can be one of the biggest challenges, said U.S. Army PFC Simon Jack, an infantryman assigned to Apache Troop, 1st Squadron, 2nd Cavalry Regiment. Just remember to relax, you've done it before, and just go through the steps like you did in training. Prior to the start of testing for EAP, the candidates went through a training phase for two weeks. Sharpening their technical and tactical knowledge to be successful in the numerous tasks ahead. During Evaluation Week, soldiers were required to pass the expert physical fitness assessment, land navigation, three evaluation lanes with 10 tasks each, the patrol lane, weapons lane, medical lane, and then a 12-mile rock march. EAP testing lanes. The amount of candidates narrowed down gradually.  You've got to put in the hours and the work to make sure that you learn all 30 of these tasks and, are able to complete them in a proficient manner. Because if you're not, then this is one of those badges that is going to be very difficult for you to get. Said U.S. Army Captain Ben Do, a field artillery officer assigned to 3rd Battalion, 27th Field Artillery Regiment. It's definitely one of those things that you have to be fully dedicated to, said Do. Regardless of the outcome, soldiers gained experience that they can use to teach others and become more reliable and capable leaders for their units. At the end of the day, we are getting a bunch of training that we can bring back to our troops and increase lethality. Said U.S. Army Sergeant Dylan Mecca, a horizontal construction engineer assigned to the 15th Engineer Battalion. Out of the 1,700 candidates who participated in the EAP event, there were 548 candidates who earned their respective badges at the graduation ceremony. EAP Patrol, Weapon Lanes. Specific titles were given to candidates, who earned their respective badges, without receiving a single, no go in their particular lane. Acknowledging the candidates' efforts to execute every task of each event. These titles include True Blue for IBE, No Blood for EFMB, and Perfect Edge for ESB. Once you wear the badge, it doesn't mean that you can just brain dump it, said Do.  With the conclusion of EAP 2023, U.S. soldiers and NATO partners successfully engaged, in the given opportunity to develop lethality, interoperability, and test their skills. Which are vital assets for maximizing mission success in real-world environments, to deter enemy forces. On safe to the safe direction. Right forward. On safe to the fire, to the fire. Put on fire, fire, hold, wrap, release, fire, wrap. Put on safe, put it down.


Test test coming through. Thank you. I'll give it a few more minutes before we get started in here Liz you made it Greetings having a little meeting and un-meeting issues there Perfectly fine. No worries. I'm just giving everyone a few more minutes to be able to come on in Hello everyone We have two Today We have two regrets today, right So sad Who was the other one James? Justin, I think it's perfectly fine We are not To my knowledge taking a vote in this meeting. So we should be fine on that. Thank you Should we get started? Yeah, I think we can grab a roll. All right. All right. Hello everyone welcome normal rules apply and you made it and Amy will update that's right tag updates this week We're doing them in alphabetical order All right, let's start with at delivery Yeah, hello everyone Quick update from tag at delivery on the project side crossplane is Already submitted and I think waiting for final approval from the TUC Depper is submitted as well for incubation I think they are right Don't know whether the interviews already happened on Depper, but the recommendation and due diligence from the Tag after the reside is done The captain project also presented for incubation in the sick, but it's waiting for To get the sponsor from from the TUC right now, but most of their work is done and they also waiting Who is the TUC's wants it for Depper? I'll let you know. I think it's Dems, but that might be wrong That's news to me Dennis Lee, sorry, it's Harry Lee sang Harry Harry's the sponsor. So he's were sponsoring another one So I was just it was a couple of projects that but we have you here. So it could verify that one Yeah, on the deliverable side the chaos engineering white paper is slowly moving Along here, we're also still working on the charter for the working group. So the team has started to work on that one Our demo approach it from the potato head project for showcasing all the app delivery projects within and beyond the CNCF Game now more momentum again So currently the project which used to be a single service which is only of limited value obviously to show distributed service updates Has now been kindly updated to distributed services and currently all the examples for all CNCF projects are getting updated as well This also helps the work which we are then doing on the corporate if delivery use cases We're using the examples to provision on the one of the application and the underlying infrastructure with All the CNCF projects that are out there On the working groups they cooperate if delivery working groups in the working group that specifically deals with how app delivery infrastructure delivery and the processes in between fit Together has that draft charter available under the link here. We also send it to the TLC mailing list to get the approval. Some of you have already voted some have not yet voted. So If you have any questions, please let us know and if you have not voted yet, it would be great to get your vote and on the case engineering side, it is still a work in Progress so but there we should have to work in group charter finished by the sooner than later as well. So that's it from app delivery. Any questions please Question the cooperative delivery working group. Is that is that one in the same. Is that formally known as the get ops working group. No, that's not the Group that's the one that deals with the problem that F and infrastructure delivery are often disconnected and you have to have a lot of handovers a lot of dependencies. We see got you. Okay, having that situation that in many communities use cases, some cluster is also provisioning the underlying infrastructure and their dependencies and requirements. So it was mostly driven by folks working on infrastructure sites and problems to run with on the app side. Again, this is the best name we could come up for there is still a contest out there for a better voting, which has came up with corporate is because like really bring infrastructure and to gather and ensuring that something you actually write in your YAML files on the application side can later on the deployment infrastructure. Because storage classes are supported networks are supported and if not you can check it actually before deploying it. Instead of having it in some cases fail silently or not not not work at all. So that that's what they're dealing with. Again, naming is hard as least pointed out. But at least everybody remembers it because nobody but everybody's to think of it's what it's doing but that's what it's what it's about. I think eventually there's also for sick network things that's coming to play like with blue green deployments and things like this when we start to work on this. Yeah, not to imply that the other working groups aren't cooperative, but in one other question if I might. Do you have a sense of, like how much of the focus of the working group is on the softer, the human side of things like the softer side of there being an infra team and an apps team and and and how how how centralized YAML or a single file that describes concerns for both teams. Like, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much of the focus is on soft psychological human gooey sticky things versus you know binary systems software stuff. Obviously at the end of the day, oh, humans have to write those YAML files in most cases. I think it's a combination of both it's really the processes that these different teams have like looking into different release cycle is the processes and how they work with other work and get things done out there but the focus is still very much how can we produce artifacts and have processes that these artifacts eventually work together so it's not like your agile type of approach for cloud natives to be not going like that far on the human and process side. It's ensuring that what falls out at the end of what is independent teams are working on eventually fits fits together. If at the later point in time we come up with something that's more related to okay this is how your team should work together. So we have actually found people working together we had a longer discussion also to not just obviously come up with the white paper by ideas that we have within the working group. Part of our work is to talk to people and companies who are doing this already at scale and getting their best practices and how to make this work so we plan is not like we invent the wheel. We're actually having a collection of all of the good practices that are already available there and if more process and organization stuff will fall out I think it will find its way to some document. But right now it's really about the hard technical issues that you might run into other people used to run into by running community space workloads and having like this infrastructure and that side of things. So I think you had a question. You were very very muted. Sorry. So, other than the white paper, the chaos engineering working group, what other kind of things are they thinking about for the future. We started guides also best practices. So there's a lot of dust but the white paper like the bigger one but also like how you get started, which type of tests, you could be running giving people an overview. So the interesting thing here is on the chaos engineering working group. It became evident very early on that this is not just something that's related to app delivery. There's an activity that spends multiple working groups will be immediately started obviously talk to networking because of network chaos, then to security but security chaos and obviously for doing all of this chaos related works you also want to know whether the system actually can deal with the chaos and not which then directly brings you to observability as well so I think there's also a lot of work that side brings all those people together. This is also why it takes a bit longer like to get the working group like form because it's a lot of people that are involved in there but people very actively from the different teams take part in it. Awesome. Nice to hear. Thank you. To what extent is cooperative delivery related to what people might describe as a platform team. I think it's the combination of the platform and an app team working together so that it like kind of really works, works pretty well. So the people we have in there are those that are used to be in both sides like the ones building the applications and the ones building the platform. And it's a lot of the things that usually don't go well together. And this happens in independent teams. There are a couple of examples in the in the charter in there like for example you use people assume that it because in their deaf environment to have storage classes available that suddenly not available in the production environment or a certain version of an application requires certain infrastructure components all the way down to Cal resources to be provisioned which are usually not part of the application definition but the platform definition but you still have this dependency application code in there so how you can model these kind of things is that as people start to use the tooling but what kind of became obvious. We have tools pretty much for everything and we can do everything for me this so we can even use could believe this in CRD and various projects that are out there like it could even provision cloud resources but it's almost like there's the infrastructure to some extent platform side and then there's the application side, but there's like no common view of like bringing both together and ensuring that they're working together nicely. I hope I made that point clear. Any other questions for Alice and tag at delivery. Okay, thank you very much. Is it network next. Yeah, that work. All right. We have a new co chair, Ed Warnacky. Yay. I can see there's a yes. Yes, this has been a long time coming. Good. Ed. So many of you gave some positive plus ones to the suggestion that Ed would come in he he's put some new life into the what I'm seeing network is doing, and hopefully, I'm deliver on part of the charter of, well, Jesus just said see network but of what tag network is doing. And boy what's worse is that some of you didn't catch it I think that's even work. And, and make sure that we're on a rotational basis inviting in various projects within the tag also various working groups within Kubernetes to have a form of exchange or just there's a lot that goes on between the projects and not everyone always has time to exchange some of those thoughts and things so particular to networking there's there's a fair bit there's a fair bit going on there's So anyway that's part of the charter is to, and we haven't done a whole lot of that and that's primarily based on bandwidth. Welcome, Ed. The last couple of calls that tag network has had have been light on project reviews light on business, if you will for tag network, although psyllium and chaos mesh are both up for incubation and both at least psyllium for sure is out for voting. And I think chaos mesh is a little bit earlier in the process. The what what the what we have been able to spend time on is in the service mesh working group. There's, I guess, a couple of things items highlighted so under the service mesh performance group, the folks at Intel, a couple of folks at Intel at Red Hat and layer five have in coordination with Ken Owens drafted a publication for IEEE if you're interested in that sort of thing there's a there's a link to the final draft. And that talks about the approaches to performance measurement in context of a service mesh. Next item up was that one of the programs one of the initiatives inside of that the service mesh working group is that of SMI conformance. And so, since last we've met here, both open service mesh is a merge away from reporting their conformance on a release by release basis. So that's great they're kind of getting into into the system, by which they would automatically report conformance and Gen X service mesh should been joining the calls most recently and is also now manually reporting their conformance but so that's great. The last item last highlighted item here is just on the topic of service mesh patterns and identifying best practices for various pieces of functionality that service mesh is offer characterizing those into a service mesh agnostic pattern. Some of that effort will fruit or will be demonstrated at service mesh con so that's nice for those that have been working on the patterns. And that's that's the update. Lee. Quick question. What is the overlap or, you know, how do you work with the say the CNF working group. Yeah, good question. Um, so by the way, is the CNF working group under any tag. That's why I was asking. I think it's part of the telco user great isn't it. Yeah, or is the Genesis of well or a slight point of confusion my best so this is grain of salt. This is my best understanding is that the fine folks have been working in the tug or the telco telco user group had wanted to sort of, you know, formalize in advance, a component of what they discussed or what it like the, the, I think primarily like testing and analyzing a performance of cloud native network functions, and hence the working group CNF working group and had kind of a little while ago looked been had proposed that working group looked for a home sort of between app delivery, tag app delivery and tag network, and became established. I don't know that they necessarily hang out in one of the two groups. You per se. Good that's on the maybe the softer side of sort of organizationally the, I'm talking all about a lot of gooey and and hard things today I don't know why, but anyway the harder more technical side. There is. Well, I think the Genesis of that working group having come from the telco user group or tug should is an indication should indicate like that you have a lot of the. There's a distinction in. They are service mesh provide or serve I'm sorry she service mesh their service provider focused. More like. So, VNF's and CNF's are of that of that genre of networking, if you will, which is touches up against but is distinct, it's nuanced very nuanced but it's distinct from some of the more enterprise centric use cases of how some of the other projects are used so like it like is uses a lot of the same network words, but the folks that are interested or the use cases and those that are involved are end up being highly highly related highly. Like if you take a look at the performance tests that are being done in this CNF working group, and those are being done and like the service mesh performance project. They're being done on 5G are like, but right now the, the, the type of applications and the type of network functions that are being analyzed are the running in different environments under different. And they're hence using different test harnesses and. Yeah, I understand that. You know, how everybody's related to the reason for asking this question is like in the end, they use all the projects that come from like, you know, under the tag network. So if there is a good feedback loop between the tag network and the CNF, it will be beneficial is my feeling, you know, if they are on their own, not like getting things back to us then, you know, you're missing an opportunity for you. I don't pay. I'd express the similar opinion previously. I don't know. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I think from the. Early days of it being set up the user group were very keen on having those discussions without vendors present. And I guess that's why it's a separate group that separate from TSE because TSE groups don't have restrictions on, you know, they're open to anybody. And that may be historically wise in that user group side, but I completely agree if there was like overlap between personnel who were involved in that user group and in tag network that would be really useful. Just a quick clarification just and I don't know if there is a, there's, I think, you know, the sort of three into three groups here that end user service mesh working group which get to Liz's point is vendor free. Actually they had reached the I actually presented at their last meeting they were really curious about some of the projects are going on here. And so yeah, vendor free the service mesh working group here. Vendored, but then the CNF working group. I think is what dims is. Okay, cool. Cool. Any other questions about tag network. My alphabetic skills have failed me. Hello. I don't think we have a leader here, at least she wasn't here earlier. Are you here. So yeah, we also have a third coach in our leader shower of AWS. She was to just devoted in last month. But she's not here to say hi but she's in. Also, I think met had a few points. Also, we had a break in August. Over to you met for for the rest. I think you put that in. Yeah, the third one there should be gone. I think I timed it wrong when, when, when the meeting started that that's that's for the future. And as Richie said, we're coming back from August break. We've got a new co-chair. We're very excited about that. A little later joins us and brings quite a bit of domain expertise, as well as vision and experience building communities. So we're extremely psyched and enthusiastic about that. Our first meeting in an hour just after this, and we'll be revisiting where we were back in July. So we have a number of work streams. Everything from the YouTube channel, which I think we can do a lot more with, as well as we're going to be looking to recruit additional tech leads this fall. So if anyone has recommendations or referrals, please pass them along to one of the coaches. And that's pretty much it. We'll keep it short and sweet today. We're looking forward to, I guess, Q for all however you want to place it. Okay. Any other questions for observability folks. All right. What's next runtime? Do we have anyone from runtime here? Yeah. Oh, hey, Ricardo. Hi, everyone. Yeah, so some quick updates for tag runtime. We had some presentations in our meeting. So in the containers and runtime space, we had this presentation for confidential containers. The folks are working on confidential computing. They have this new project and they're thinking about applying for sandbox. This is a project backed by a lot of big companies, Intel, Apple, Red Hat, IBM, AMD, so a lot of a lot of backing from this project. This is a way to run, you know, like workloads that are fully protected in cloud service providers. So places where you don't own the hardware. So people are able to run the workloads in a secure way and being verified, being encrypted and all the good stuff with security. So in the machine learning, machine learning at artificial intelligence space, so we had a presentation from volcano. This is a project that allows you to run batch workloads on top of Kubernetes. The presentation is about incubation. So they're trying to go for incubation and they're looking for a sponsor, a TOC sponsor. So if anyone interested in sponsoring to take this project forward, it tackles an area that there's a, there's a gap, you know, in terms of batch workloads for Kubernetes. Another project that we had our presentation from, what's MLflow, this is end-to-end machine learning and it's a really big project that's similar to Kubeflow, so very, very large community. So hopefully we get some interest from those folks to, you know, to participate more in the CNCF activities. KubeDL, another project in Sandbox and the CNCF and it allows you to run deep learning workloads. So taking your model from training to production, so it's currently in Sandbox. So they're looking to grow and possibly go into incubation sometime in the future. And finally in this space that we reached out to the MLops community, so we're asking for more participation so that we have more in this space, you know, projects that are interested in presenting in our meetings. And for tag runtime activities, we're still working on a logo, so that's in progress. Hopefully we'll have that ready in the next few weeks. And the container orchestrated device working group, Renault, which was the main chair of the working group step down, so Alex Kineski from Intel will be handling most of the activities. And we have some interest from the confidential containers community that possibly they want to create a working group, but that's in progress so that may come after they apply for Sandbox. And finally for KubeCon North America, in China we have tag sessions, tag runtime sessions, so we want to get more exposure and hopefully get more people involved. And the one in North America is going to be an in-person session. And yeah, that's all for the updates. Happy to take any questions. Thanks, Ricardo. One, sorry, go ahead. I was just curious if there's an overlap between confidential containers and Cata containers. Yeah, so it's the same community, but the Cata containers could be one of the components that they can use, but they can use other runtimes or their VM type of runtimes. Also proposed lift cave run, I think that will actually make it possible to run confidential containers. So yeah, so there's some overlap in a way, but it's not exactly the same. Yeah, they are actually the Cata container folks are using container D and there is a POC in container D as well, where they're experimenting on some of this stuff. Yes. The one question I had, Ricardo, is awesome folks, right? There's a bunch of awesome projects under in tag runtime. How are they working with each other or how are they cooperating? Is there anything going on where? Yeah, we're talking to each other. We had a few projects present. So in the last one was Wasm Cloud, Liam Randall is the lead for that project and he actually set up the Cloud Wasm Day event at the KubeCon. So he's actually in contact with some of those folks. But we, I think it will be a good idea to maybe reach out to them and see if there's something that we can do in terms of like creating a working group. But yeah, we didn't, we don't have a lot of base for Wasm this time, but we've actually done quite a bit in the past. But going forward, I think a good idea will be to create some sort of working groups that they actually work together. And Liam working on Wasm Cloud has actually started with the, you know, the Wasm Cloud Wasm Day event and the idea there's also to get more participation from the community and more traction in some of those projects. Thank you. Okay. Unless there are any other questions about runtime. Thank you. Let's go to security. Hey, so we have just one update, but it's a big update. We've finally brought to completion the assessment of cloud native build packs. This has been going on for quite some time since April of last year. And extremely high praise for the diligence and rigor from the maintainers of cloud native build packs and how responsive they were throughout the whole process and tire length. And they were absolutely prompt to resolve any questions respond to any feedback that the assess that the assessors had for them. A couple of notable things while the project is watertight at two different dimensions. One is well the the outputs of build packs, the container images that are generated using build packs tooling do a lot of assurance to avoid by container security best practices. Examples are all processes must use non root user or group identifiers at build time and generation built and run images are done separately. All variables are specified separately if reproducibility is supported. Build pack does ensure bit by bit reproducibility of these artifacts. Then the the other layer is how well the project follows secure development best practices. While we're doing the assessment we're able to do the CIA best practices for the project and it was just the breeze, feeling all filling out all the security criteria, because they were meeting it already. Notably, in addition to that the project team also started signing their life cycle images using cosine and generating cycling DX S bombs for further releases. So, all in all, really good assessment. About to merge it soon. We're playing a little bit with the Google Docs API to export all resolved comments. So people get more visibility and transparency into what were they assessed against what was the kind of feedback how did they responded to it. They did put a lot of effort in and rewarding this yet the assessment itself so that questions wouldn't arise in first place so the assessment document as it stands should be a good enough reference. The recommendation to CNCF is to circulate that assessment as a vehicle to improve awareness of the project and how it compares and contrasts to ecosystem alternatives when it comes to security properties. That's it for the assessment some administrative stuff regarding assessments. We were a little bit backtracked with other assessments that that were in the pipeline ahead of this one. Also that the project due diligence for incubation bypassed the security assessment. And it also influenced that we didn't have a really strong sense of urgency to to knock this one out from the get go, and it kind of became victim to other priorities. So, yeah, determining whether assessments are mandatory for due diligence is what would help us. And prioritize these better. And then with, well, it's been it's been a hard year for everyone so lots of job changes lots of people taking leave, and that that also affected a little bit of the length of the whole assessment but once again should be should be checked in pretty soon. We'll send an update to the group once it is happy to take any questions of their hand. I don't know if I have questions about build packs. I don't know if you're the best person to answer it. Could people could people today just be swapping out the existing images built with typically Docker build and just replacing them with build packs and the world will be a safer place. The second thing is, yes, there is almost zero heavy lifting involved. And it's quite swappable. As you've said, I also have Matthew Giasa, who was involved in the assessment. Matthew I don't know if you can speak more detail to that, as we'll just defer it to the to the project team and come back with a response. We'll see him here. I think might have just dropped. Okay, let me let me take it as an AI. But yeah, I think that's that's going to be the question in people's minds like, you know, can people use their existing registry and just be storing build packs in the same registry and you know like what's the process for people to move to build packs. Okay, they may already have that documented somewhere but that's that's my kind of initial reaction to that recommendation is okay if it's easy for people to make this change. Let's encourage it but I think we need to understand what that process of making the change involves. One of the things that I think is really interesting about this is that in practice, the build packs are are most often maintained by the platform team, which is one of the ways that things get more secure is because you've got a platform team who often take on the responsibilities for security and then organization, maintaining these build packs, essentially maintaining the image building process. And then we have app teams that just use them. I think that what's so interesting is the parallel to the conversation that Eloise was talking about earlier when he was talking about YAML and platform teams and app teams. There's, there's a crossover from there. There's a relationship to what we're talking about here with build packs so build packs are very specific technique that I think addresses that coordination. And that cooperation between the platform team I love how you called that out earlier Liz that you were saying isn't this platform, platform team app team it's that cooperation. And so build packs are part of that cooperation as well. That's really interesting. I love us if you're still here. I'd love to hear your reaction to to this. Yeah, I think it is it is one of the projects that we listed as well as one of those that should be in there. There's a lot of the supply chain security concerns as well using using build packs. I think there's still the unresolved issue is what about like all the other YAML configurations that go beyond just a container image. And we have seen some projects that have interesting approaches there as well conceptually very similar like you can't use the pure YAML and anymore just get access to value files for more less predefined templates. I think there's also some interesting developments there and where people build these high level components in Kubernetes like you can say I have a service and I want to have it exposed to the to the internet. And this is where my image is coming from this is my URL just parameters like this, and on CNCF project we were, for example talking to was gimlet but very small but interesting project. And so we see if the knows about those platform teams because they can say well what you can build whatever you want to do your application developer but this is what it's supposed to look like these are the network policies you need to have these are the network routes. These are the security roles that need to be there. This is a similar concept. It exists exist as well. That's not the part of bill packs, but bill packs fit in there as well. But that other area will also be one I think we're going to see more, more and more people working in the direction because conceptually that's what bill packs do the more less that you just keep the application specific parts, and the rest is injected underneath and also updated automatically. And similar things for configuration. Artifacts like but it's YAML, pure YAML and charts I think we will see a more of that as well from a simplicity and a security perspective so that that's exactly the direction which which we're looking into as well. I think there's also an overlap with runtime but some of the confidential computing containers. You know part of their work that they're doing is actually, you know pulling out like an encrypted image or encrypted workload artifact and making it run in a secure way so there's, there's overlap without delivery runtime and security and possibly storage to you know how you store securely store your containers. It's a very interesting space. Yeah, I feel quite ignorant about what the kind of processes here for people who want to move to build packs what that involves I think that could be a really interesting thing to understand because like build packs are a good thing and solve some problems particularly for security so yeah. You know, for fairness to the assessment authors who handed us to have it scrutinized, they did detail that in the document, but being security folks we've just zoomed in and to the security design. I would encourage folks just to click on the link, flip through it. They do a great job writing up like the intended use and as Cornelio was saying they do highlight very well like the shared responsibilities model and how like platform and app teams are meant to cooperate through build packs and like what responsibility falls on on whose side. So, they do have quite a bit of that and writing and like this assessments are great for that purpose to get people like a quick deep dive on on certain practical things of the project so just wanted to bring that up. So, quick question here, keying off of what Liz was saying. And what is in the text that is being presented. So the assessment team strongly suggests evaluating awareness of the project. Right. So what tools do we have in CNCF that we can help make this happen I guess. Because if we were talking about like, okay, people need to move from Docker to CNAB and that would be better for security right like how do we get the word out. Yeah, of the services provided to projects depending on the tier there and their number of like information dissemination or like marketing opportunities, be it webinars, be it social media, be it well let's let's take from this assessment the those parts that were we're talking about of like hey how do you migrate from this to that and why would you in first place like writing up the value prop like really crisp and really succinct. So it's not like a 10 or 12 page document, I think can can go long ways. These are just ideas and I'm spitballing here because I hadn't anticipated that question. And it's something throughout assessments we find in the summer we always suggest like, hey let's do a little bit more marketing for for this project that might be like an expert level system and not like the rest of the ecosystem is not aware for any number of reasons. Yeah, I could really imagine you know maybe the the projects, you know, writing some material to help on this, but also if we had like end users who had actually done that transition and could share how that had gone. I could see that being really valuable. And I guess the bill packs project is probably the people who are best placed to know who's done it. So, I hope we can put that into their court but you know with support from CNCF that we because from everything I'm hearing this sounds very positive. It probably involves things like you know, how do we get people to use examples that use bill packs instead of Docker files and how do we get people to, you know, just as they're talking about delivering applications, you know, how do we make the default choice, the more modern choice. And that's a remember from the due diligence review and I don't want to do them wrong it might have changed in between I think they could put a bit more into especially the examples. Because I know when I was reviewing it, they had the examples but they were not necessarily most useful ones if you would just wanted to build your container. It's been changed since that due diligence but I agree I think this is, I think it is a bit of more of a learning curve if you want to do it with bill packs than with your Docker file. I think as soon as you move to a reasonable structure of your Docker file and take care of security concerns. The additional effort is well work actually becomes less and obviously be would be worth it. I agree with your list I think maybe having more examples on how to use bill packs instead of Docker especially right now is a whole discussion about software supply chain security. I think it perfectly hits there. Awesome. Well hopefully this discussion can invigorate the project team to to help come up with some of these examples. Any other questions? I'll relay that to them. I will relay that to them and make sure that those examples if they do exist that they're discoverable because that's typically the other challenge. Things exist but people don't know how to get to them. Thank you. Thank you, Andres. Any other questions about security tag? Thank you so much for bringing that up. That was really useful. Thanks storage. So, a bit of an update on the projects going through review. The Longhorn project is the DVDs is completed. And we've sent to Saad for review he's he's provided a few comments back last night, which we're just going through, but that should be done shortly. We're hoping to complete that soon as well. Open EBS. There has been a bit of movement there the team have been getting some of the licensing and copyright and variety of other challenges sort of that which they've been working on. And they're going to and we're going to pencil in a call with the team next week. And then we'll be able to make a recommendation as to as to how to proceed there. Also, on on the project reviews, one of the, one of the things that Saad has asked us for is to to to get guidance on how to deal with multiple, sort of multiple solutions. And sort of trying to come up with a strategy for for for how we decide and compare which ones should be incubated and graduated whether you know it's all of them or some of them or or or how we differentiate with them. So we're going to discuss that on the on attack call tomorrow. But also, sort of, I'd love to open it up to the floor if there are any, you know, particular particular bits of feedback that the TOC could share there. Finally, the we've been working on a couple of documents the cloud native disaster recovery doc is is done. And, and I think we're we're kind of ready to release that now and we have the performance and benchmarking white paper which which sort of had a bit of a stall for a few months. But now Nick has picked this up and has reviewed drafts and we've got a final section to be finished off and and then I think we're done and should be ready in time for a coupon. I think that was it. Great. Thank you. So I guess you asked for thoughts about, you know how we deal with the situation of three kind of similar projects. You know, and how we evaluate the three. I mean, for me, what I'd love to see is what is the difference between them, you know, what is the clear air that makes one different from another. And that, you know, helps helps us understand, you know, are there situations where we would want to recommend a and other situations where we would want to recommend be. And if there's another situation if there's no situation where C is the best option then I'm not sure why we would want all three, if that makes any sense. Well, so open question. You know, there's obviously each of the projects will have a variety of you know pros and cons even if they solve similar problems. And certainly within the CNC F we already have a lot of overlaps in, you know, different projects whether it's, you know, runtime or observability or whatever else. And so the question is, you know, is it should we be proposing like a recommendation to include or not include one or the other based on based on the fact that they have similar use cases or, or, should we, or should we, you know, have multiple options like, like we have in in sort of other technology areas in the CNC F. So I think wherever we have multiple options. It's no bad thing to have multiple options it's good to give people choice and we're trying not to be prescriptive and we're trying not to be king makers, but every time we have multiple solutions it adds some uncertainty for end users. And if if that uncertainty is is kind of unnecessary because in fact no reasonable person would choose one of those three options given the other two, then. Right. And I'm not saying that that's the case with these three but you know if if there were two that were definitely better than a third then I would much rather that we don't try and pretend that all three are on the same level if that makes sense. But it's very likely that all three have some strengths at which they excel or some environment where they're the best suited and if that's the case let's try and be as clear as we can to end users to sort of clarify why we think those three projects are worth sustaining and using. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Anyone else has thoughts please do chime in on that that's just my kind of interpretation. I like that less. What I was thinking, you know, similar to that was like, is there like a matrix of, okay, these are the features and here are the projects. So you have a matrix where people can like figure out like, okay, based on these things, let me pick, let me start with one of these, rather than the other ones right and then, you know, I'm just thinking like what is the decision making process for an end user to go through these projects and would they just pick one in random or can can we give them some guidance, like, like one page matrix saying here are the list of features or list of things that you need to look at is where each of these, you know, storage options are useful. Come up with something that will help them like pick the first one. Hey Alex I'm also wondering do these projects have any adoption stats of their own, you know should see and see if I have some kind of a common service discipline that tracks that because you know it's one thing for us to evaluate and recommend but I mean these projects have been growing on their own for a while so they need to be able to demonstrate some degree of adoption. Otherwise, I mean I think that I would, I think that speaks more to the viability of the project than anything else. I mean, look, I agree with that there's, there is sort of a an implicit assumption that if the project passes a due diligence at incubation level that's you know there are end users using it in production and adoption stats and maintainer stats and all. I think all the comments are minimal right like three users or whatever so so if you know if one had a millions of deployments the other one has a thousand deployments then then it's pretty obvious you know which one is really leading so so that that's what I mean is there is there is there. Something like that would actually very helpful from the user perspective. Another sort of more qualitative assessment might be asking those users why they picked the ones that they picked you know were they, you know, if they picked a was that because that was the one they were familiar with other particular tendencies with one ecosystem to pick one solution over another. You know, we saw that with run times right that there were certain ecosystems that were more likely to use container D and others that were more likely to use cryo that kind of it becomes their valid choices and tend to go along with the ecosystem you're in.  And they're presumably going to have different users.  And the question is, you know, do we kind of standardize how we compare these things that we standardize how we provide guidance for these things or I mean, in some cases maybe it's more click cut than other than others I guess but. Yeah, I think we're going to run out of time to foolish flesh out that answer. I do think if there are ways we can compare names around Tom has suggested about having metrics that we can compare performance metrics I think I don't think that's the be all an end all. I do think if there are metrics that would be useful. Yeah, maybe maybe it's something we can pick up in the next meeting. Yes, indeed. Let's put that on the agenda. Yeah. All right, in the last 30 seconds, I guess, if anyone who is I know most of the people who are. The responses for these are not on the call but if anyone does have updates, please shout out now. Amy, can we add the volcano to the list of your projects waiting for sponsors. Yeah, we should probably try and put those. I know we can run into the meeting. Yeah. I think it's helpful if we make it prominent how many are waiting. Change that for next time. That's fine. All right, great. Thank you. All right, we're pretty much up to the top of the hour so I think we probably have to call it a day but thank you everyone for your time and lots of really useful discussions today. Thanks everyone. Thank you.