This is the Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie. Thanks for listening. My guest today is Rachel Neuer, author of I Feel Love, MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World. It's a history of the drug known as Mollion Ecstasy that's about to be approved by the FDA as an aid in fighting PTSD. Rachel Neuer, thanks for talking to me. Thanks so much for having me. Why did you write I Feel Love? Great question. There's really two answers to that. The first is the sort of common good answer, which is there wasn't a book about MDMA. It's this huge cultural phenomenon we're probably gonna see, we'll hopefully see it, approved by the FDA for PTSD treatment within the next year. Yet there wasn't a resource that brought all the information about this complex nuanced drug together in one place. Just felt like people needed to have that touchstone. And there's just so many misconceptions about MDMA that I wanted to spell those, not just for readers, but also for myself. The other part of that answer is a more personal one. It was the height of the pandemic. Like many people, I was kind of having a crisis. What am I doing with my life? Am I going in the right direction? And for me, that was really manifesting and worries over my career. I had spent about a decade reporting about illegal wildlife trade, which is not a cherry topic. We're talking like slaughtered rhinos and elephants and there just weren't many hopeful stories there. And I really realized that I was looking for a change of pace, for a new intellectual and personal challenge and MDMA turned out to be the answer. And that helps explain the subtitle of the book, right? Which is? Yes. MDMA and the quest for connection in a fractured world. Yeah. Yes. So this is like your pandemic, baby. Yeah, this is exactly that. It's kept me very occupied in the pandemic. And in my last book, I went to like 12 countries to report it, but this one I could very easily do from the phone and just right here in the good old US of A and a quick hop over the pond to the UK. There was certainly that, I think weirdly if we talk about the psychedelic renaissance at reason and obviously other people do, but that might be one thing the pandemic really helped because you couldn't travel out. So travel in, right? Exactly, yeah. And I say this in the beginning of the book, so it's not a surprise, but the idea for the book came to me while I was on MDMA, but not at a club, which is my preferred environment with us sitting on my couch at home at like 7 p.m. on a Friday night. Just before we get into the conversation about the history of MDMA, I'm struck by your saying, this came to me while I was on MDMA. As a broad cultural background, how old are you? I am, let's see, what am I now? 38, it keeps changing. Yes, it does on an almost annual basis, right? It's crazy. But one thing, like have you always felt comfortable saying, hey, you know what, I use drugs that are technically or openly illegal and have you always felt comfortable doing that? Or is there a shift going on in our society where people are starting to say, you know what, like these drugs are not sanctioned or they're kind of sketchy or people kind of look at you weird, but let's talk about it. Yeah, I was definitely not always the person who was like, I use drugs, I like drugs. I was a dare kid from the 80s. I grew up just- Another great success story. Indeed. Yeah, I completely swallowed that message. I internalized it. If I heard of friends doing drugs, whether it's weed or ecstasy, I looked down on them, I judged them. I thought people who do drugs are looking for an escape or their burnouts or they're gonna frazzle their brain. It wasn't for me. That began to change in college. I had a friend who introduced me to mushrooms, but I didn't really know anything about them. It didn't have this stigma attached to it like ecstasy did. So I was like, sure, I'll try a new thing. I love new experiences and that was great. I really enjoyed it, but it didn't open my eyes to MDMA at all. I still had this negative connotation. Is it because MDMA, I suspect in dare, when you were in grammar school, they weren't talking about mushrooms so much, but is it also because MDMA is engineered? MDMA is a pharmaceutical of some sort. It's a pill. It's not a naturally occurring thing. I think for a lot of people that is absolutely the case. For me, I had a personal negative connotation. So when I was my freshman year of college, a friend's brother committed suicide. And this is in my town of Mississippi and everyone blamed his use of ecstasy. They specifically said, Chris, he was taking all this ecstasy. It made him so depressed and he killed himself. So instead of looking at the underlying drivers of what led him to make that decision, everyone just pointed at the drug.  I'm never gonna touch that. Right. Let's talk about the kind of discovery or rediscovery of MDMA and what, late 60s, early 70s. Lay out the history of MDMA. And for the people out there, you might know it as Molly or ecstasy or Adam, I mean. But what is MDMA and where did it come from? Yeah, that's a great disclaimer for everyone out there. Molly and ecstasy are the same thing. And they refer to what is supposed to be MDMA, whether your street bot, Molly or ecstasy is MDMA is another question, but they refer to the same thing. It's just a branding tactic. So the history part of the book, surprising, was actually one of my favorite parts to write. My mom's a historian, but I'm not a history person myself. And I just really got into it because there were so many unexpected twists and turns. So first of all, MDMA is a lot older than most people think. It was first synthesized, well, it was first patented, let's say, on Christmas Eve, 1912, by the German pharmaceutical company, Merck, respected group. And they weren't looking for something to change people's brains. They were looking for a blood clotting agent. And MDMA was just a chemical intermediary on the steps they needed to get there. Whether or not, either that or they had a chemist who just liked the way it felt. And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's for blood. Yeah, exactly. Very sadly, that chemist was killed a few years later in World War I. So anyway, so Merck, whether or not anyone there actually tried it, we don't know. They've been really cagey about letting people into their archives. It seems like maybe they did. There's little hints here and there of chemists being like, hey, this is pretty interesting. Let's take a closer look. Fast forward to the 1950s, MDMA pops up in the US for the first time. This is during the US government's search for chemical truth serum. So let's figure out how we can control the minds of our enemies by conducting experiments on US citizens to see how this goes. So this is part of MKUltra and it's the epiphenomenon of that. It wasn't MKUltra, but yeah. It was the Army's version of the CIA's trials. Again, we don't have the sort of smoking gun evidence that MDMA was ever given to anyone under this experiment, but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. People who have had more time than I have to pursue the Freedom of Information Act process have gotten really close to revealing that indeed the US Army did do this. A student named Nicholas Denome, I think he's got in his PhD now, so Dr. Nicholas Denome, tracked down a document that pointed to Tulane University in New Orleans as having contracted with the Army and MDMA was on their list of drugs, but when Nick asked for the specific document from the US government that would show whether or not it was actually given to anyone, they said, oh, we lost it. So, you know. And there was that weird moment when Richard Nixon after visiting Tulane gave a speech where he said, I don't know, I really love you all. I'm joking. I was like, I didn't know what this, I should have put it in my book. Darn. Yeah, in another reality. So that takes us through the 50s. Yes. So MDMA pops up again in police records of seizures in around 1970, 1971, which probably just points to the fact that the Controlled Substances Act had just come out and had criminalized MDA, which is closely related molecule, and entrepreneurial chemists are probably just looking for a way to get around the law by sticking an extra methyl group on MDMA. So the police even thought that they were seizing MDMA, but we don't know anything about those chemists. We don't know who their customers were. We don't know who was using it for what. What we do know is that MDMA comes up again in 1975 when a PhD student at Berkeley named Carl Resnickoff got with his mentor there, a guy named Alexander Shulgin, everyone calls him Sasha, a famous psychedelic chemist, and they were working on a summer project together. And Carl is... Shulgin is kind of the Thomas Edison of psychedelics, right? That's the great way of putting it. He just started proliferating all sorts of compounds and testing them out. Incredible chemists, yeah. They invented like 20 molecules, would test them on himself and his wife if they were interesting and share them with friends. So Carl, young Carl, was really enamored with Shulgin and his work, because Carl, he had tried LSD when he was like in eighth grade, he was all about it. And Shulgin said, okay, you need to do a summer project. What do you wanna do? And Carl was a big fan of MDA, as we were talking about earlier, and thought, okay, methamphetamine is more euphoric than plain amphetamine. The difference is this methyl group. Why don't I just stick the same methyl group onto MDA and see what happens? It's pretty logical. And Shulgin's like, that's a great idea. Let's do it. So they hold up in the summer of 1975, UC Berkeley, and synthesized MDMA together. And Shulgin took most of it home, but he gave Carl a little baggy, measured out just perfectly. I think it was like 125 milligrams, two doses.  And yeah. It's a beautiful recreation. You have him tell that story. And it's really kind of magical. There are moments where MDMA is, it's sometimes it's that drug, where it's like it's something you do by yourself or with a loved one or somebody you wanna connect with. And when I say intimate, not necessarily sexual, but like a deep bond. Yeah. And then it becomes kind of the ultimate rave. Well, actually club drug first. And then rave drug. What, how does it start shifting out from that? Right, well, back up just a step before that. So Shulgin did try MDMA after Carl reported back with very positive experiences in 76. And he realized this molecule's potential for therapy. He introduced it to a therapist's friend of his, who became sort of this, I guess people say the Johnny Apple seed of MDMA in the therapeutic community. So it quietly started spreading among first Bay Area therapists and then broader around the US and even internationally. But people were keeping really quiet about it because a lot of these therapists had either worked with LSD in the preceding decades or knew exactly what had happened with LSD being criminalized. So they knew that if word got out about this new psychoactive drug, it would absolutely be criminalized. Just like LSD and they didn't want that to happen because they were seeing such powerful results. How did they use it in a therapeutic context? Yep. So there's some early studies from the Greers out of New Mexico. And, you know, at first it's kind of funny. They were following the LSD model, but at first they were kind of just experimenting themselves with what worked, what didn't work. And in those original trials they would actually take MDMA with their clients but they realized, okay, we need to not be high on MDMA because we need to focus on you and not make this about us. So that stopped. But they would bring people kind of like the trials today, bring people to their house, give them a low or whatever dose they thought would be appropriate and just let them work through whatever issue they were trying to work through. And the idea is, I mean, it opens people up. It allows them to, you know, be in touch with their feelings and feel connected. Exactly. It's kind of, well, Shulgan used the word window. So it opens this window on yourself where you can find answers to questions you're asking your own self or partners without fear, without anxiety, without the typical neuroses or clutter of our brain that gets in the way. So yeah, people used it for all kinds of things from couples counseling to just, you know, I'm having this trouble at work. I want to work through that. I want to know myself deeper into more serious things like trauma. So that was all going on through the 70s. But as you said earlier, MDMA did make this jump from the therapist's couch to the dance floor. And the Greer said to me in one point in the interview, you know, it was inevitable that this was going to happen. It's a drug that makes you feel good. People want to take drugs that make you feel good. And there was a lot of tension between the recreational and the therapeutic community just as there was with LSD years before.  And I guess we should point out that LSD, particularly during the 50s and early 60s to some degree, was being used widely by therapists to help. Yeah, exactly. You know, just to help treat things like alcoholism, but just to get through things. You know, yesterday, while we're taping this, yesterday was Carrie Grant's birthday. And Carrie Grant is probably the best known kind of celebrity who took LSD and publicly extolled its virtues, you know, saying like it made him feel alive again, et cetera. So MDMA is kind of an echo of that. Exactly, yeah. And I mean, it was really the LSD therapists that paved the way for MDMA to then just slot right into that empty poll that had been left by LSD being criminalized. And the thing is at this time, MDMA is completely legal. The government isn't aware of it. So there's the therapeutic community and many of them wanted to keep it a secret.  But there's also a different contingent of people who wanted to just release it on the world and also make a nice profit from doing so. Also similar to LSD, really. Indeed. So the sort of figurehead of the recreational scene at this time was a guy named Michael Clegg. He ran a group that came to be known as the Texas group because a lot of them were operating out of Dallas. And Michael Clegg just wanted to, you know, churn out as much MDMA as possible, as quickly as possible, making a lot of money. But he wasn't the typical drug lord that you think of.  He had these ideas of himself as enlightened, wanting to like serve a bigger purpose in the world. Wanting to like help people be saved. You know, whatever that means to them. So that was Michael Clegg. He really spread MDMA across Texas, California, the US, and that is what attracted the attention of the US government. Right, so then what happened? Then what happened? Well, the DEA moved to schedule MDMA. They, in summer of 85, which was when I was born, coincidentally, MDMA was put on the emergency schedule one list. And that meant that it was illegal. Well, the DEA, what they did not see coming, they thought this would just be a normal scheduling, is that there were all these therapists, professors, like at Harvard, who believed in MDMA and thought it was worthy of study and worthy of use. So this group of therapists, including Sasha Shulgin, put together a case to bring the DEA to court and say, hey, this is a drug with medical purpose. So it can't be schedule one, because schedule one is defined as no medical purpose. It should be schedule three, allow us to work with it, allow us to study it, control it, but come on. And the really fascinating thing is they actually won that trial. The administrative law judge sided with them and said, yeah, you guys have shown that MDMA does indeed have value as a medicinal tool. It's being used by therapists. It should be schedule three. But because of whatever bureaucracy, I don't understand the federal system. MDMA was put on schedule one, because that judge's determination was only a suggestion. So the DEA just did what they wanted to do the whole time. Yeah. I am old enough to have taken MDMA before it was illegal and after. And one of the things, I have a strong memory of it being before, in the earlier 80s, it was more of a kind of reflective, introspective drug. Oh, interesting. And then after it became illegal. And part of the concerns about it were like it was dangerously antisocial, like you didn't want to go out or talk to people, because you were doing your own thing. Oh, that's fascinating.  But so talk about maps. The nonprofit that is the group that is bringing, has been working since the 80s to bring MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD and related indications. How did they get involved and what role did they play in this world where MDMA has been banned? Right. So I'll say that we would not be where we are today in terms of MDMA-assisted therapy being on the cusp of potential federal approval if it were not for maps, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Maps was founded in 1986 by a guy named Rick Doblin. Rick was this kid who grew up outside Chicago, raised on stories around the family dinner table of the Holocaust. So Rick was this kid who was afraid that at any moment, all the people around him could just break out in like a maniacal genocide mode. And Rick really made it his mission in life. He's a strange kid apparently to find a solution for that. Kind of a strange adult too. Yeah, just a strange guy. Yeah, it's a very interesting, unique character. Rick wound up at New College in Florida where he was introduced to drugs and he thought that doing mind-melting doses of LSD, et cetera, was the way to enlightenment. He did not find the answers that route but through those connections he found his way to MDMA and at first he thought it was like, oh, how profound could this drug be if you can still talk on it? But he quickly realized for himself the utility of just being able to communicate with people in the open way we were talking about earlier and he thought, huh, maybe this drug is the answer for getting people to set aside their differences and seeing that we're all just human, we all want love, we all want the same thing. We have more in common than we have different. Rick got involved in that DEA trial. He was one of the three younger people that was sort of spearheading the organizational effort, you know, getting the money, getting the lawyer, getting everyone to write letters. After the trial, everyone gave up. Most people stopped using MDMA in their practice because they didn't want to lose their license.  But Rick just is like very hard headed, I guess, like the most tenacious person ever. And there was something that Rick actually learned at the trial. He was talking with one of the DEA agents who was representing the government and this guy, Frank Sapienza, told Rick, look, kid, like there might be something to this MDMA thing, but you are never gonna get anywhere with it unless you go through the federal route. You need to get approval, you need to do FDA trials, clinical trials, like that's the way you gotta do it. And Rick really took that to heart.  And so part of his, one of the lessons he talks about learning from kind of the LSD experience or the way the war on drugs started playing out when, you know, I mean, it had been around before, but when Nick's in an accident in the early 70s, it's like that outlaw route's not gonna do it. We're gonna try and go through official channels. And where are they now?  So clinical trials, you have to have three phases.  Phase two is kind of more efficacy and safety and then phase three is the more rigorous, like, okay, does this work and is it safe? They have just completed the end of the phase three section. And again, this has taken like literally 20 plus years. You know, just in terms of paying for these things. So we'll get to this in a second, but Rick was just doing this all on fundraising, you know, and it costs millions, literally to do clinical trials and also just jumping through all the paperwork and permissions hoops of the government. So the second or the last phase three trials done and MAPS Public Benefit Corporation, which has now become a pharmaceutical company, just submitted a application to the FDA at the end of December, asking for a new drug approval for MDMA's therapy for PTSD. So the FDA has like a certain amount of time to respond, but long story short, hopefully there'll be some sort of answer both by like mid 2024, that's the year we're in now, yes. Parallel to that kind of MAPS trying to get MDMA in certain circumstances approved, what happened, you know, in the 80s and 90s and arts with MDMA, because it, you know, Timothy Leary once famously talked about how LSD escaped, you know, the CIA labs, you know, et cetera, and went into the mainstream MDMA certainly escaped any kind of, you know, lockdown on it. What was going on there? Yeah, a lot was going on. So in the late 80s, MDMA made its way to the UK, which basically created raves because people wanted to keep partying after clubs closed and hence raves. And raves in turn led to the multi-billion dollar electronic dance music industry that we have today. MDMA through that rave pathway became a global phenomenon. So like tons of people doing MDMA, mostly youngsters, warehouses, clubs, potentially dangerous environments. And we started to see our first MDMA deaths, you know, nothing like the number of alcohol deaths we see or other drugs. But, you know, a few deaths that would be overly covered in the news and... And this is from people kind of taking too much and having cardiac events or dehydrating and kind of dance. I mean, they were like, they would be talked about as whirling dervishes, right? They would dance themselves to death. Yeah, I mean, hyperthermia was the main one. Overheating, just, you know, getting too hot and like, yeah, overheating.  It was seen as this threat to sort of puritanical American and likewise British values. So there were tons of just really severe laws that came down, banning MDMA. Joe Biden was involved in the rave. Trying to criminalize pacifiers and glow sticks as drug paraphernalia, for example. But what that did is it really tarnished MDMA's reputation almost in the same way as LSD's reputation was tarnished by being attached to the counterculture, you know. It was like a political strategy to try to take this drug down. And at the same time, the US government, especially was pumping money into studies to prove that MDMA was neurotoxic, that it impacted the brain in a detrimental way. Millions of dollars of federal funding went into labs, you know, literally trying to prove this. And in the end, they didn't prove it because MDMA really isn't neurotoxic. It of course can be dangerous if you take too much. But the lasting effect of that from the late 80s and through the 90s and even early aughts was that MDMA's reputation was really tainted. Any public understanding or awareness of its therapeutic value was completely paved over by this negative connotation. And you know, it's that kind of connotation that I grew up with in the 80s. But then, you know, it's kind of flipped, right?  I actually, I feel really good on this where I've had good experiences. When did things seem to start tipping away? Because I would say now ecstasy is, you know, it doesn't have those negative connotations that it might have had at the beginning of the 21st century. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Well, I can tell you my personal experience of when it flipped. So I wrote this book proposal in the pandemic like I told you and my agent sent it out to a bunch of editors and we got all nos. People were saying, Michael Pollan already wrote this book because they just don't understand the difference between a mushroom and MDMA or whatever. Other people were saying this book looks too positive about MDMA or about ecstasy. Why isn't this about the negative effects of ecstasy? And others were saying there's just not enough there to say anything about ecstasy. This isn't a book project. Then the first maps, phase three study came out. I wrote about it for the New York Times. Suddenly the conversation just shifted in this really significant way. I started getting interest on the book proposal. I really think that that trial kind of legitimized MDMA and put it out there in the broader public understanding in a way that wasn't present before. What are the benefits of the maps approach of going through FDA approval and showing this is a medicine and it's like other types of drugs you might help to get over depression or anxiety or something like that. Those are the benefits. Are there costs to MDMA kind of being talked about? Oh well, it's a medicine and you go to a doctor and you get prescribed it and things like that. I have heard people who are more part of the underground scene and they're afraid that oh, this is gonna make MDMA less cool if it's suddenly this medicine or oh, we're sterilizing the industry. But just remembering a comment that Ben Sessa who's a therapist or a psychiatrist in the UK and also works with MDMA and other drugs like this.  It doesn't make MDMA less cool but this is what we have to do to legitimize it to eventually move toward hopefully legality not just for therapeutic uses but also for recreational uses or whatever people wanna do. And that's gonna make these things safer in the end because then we're gonna know where we're getting our drugs. We're gonna know how to take them. We're gonna have education about how to use them properly. This is almost always the case with what the government calls illicit drugs, not even a legal, immoral, not knowing what's in them which is hard to do in black markets because dealers don't spend a lot of time putting labels on stuff or checking the Providence but a lot of the times the impurities in a drug are more terrible than whatever the thing is including things like heroin and whatnot. What is the, what's the role of the rave culture in kind of popularizing or kind of creating, I don't wanna say creating a market for ecstasy but like how does that work? Like what are the cultural manifestations that made people start to say, not just like, oh, I'm gonna stay away from ecstasy but actually that seems pretty interesting. I wanna do it or try it. I think hearing your friends or people you trust say, hey, I tried this thing and not only was it like the most fun night I've ever had it also was like a profoundly beautiful experience. That's actually how I found my way to this drug. My now husband was a 90s raver kid in Colorado going out to warehouses and when I met him, I still had these negative connotations about ecstasy and then hearing his stories and he was by no means trying to push me into this. He was done with MDMA.  That sounds really fun. And I think that we really look over or we don't give the rave scene its due credit. Millions and millions of people around the world have tried MDMA, millions of them have had profound, beautiful, wonderful experiences on it. Yet there's very little rigorous attention paid to them from the scientific community. There's just not funding or interest to study them because the government is providing the most of the funding and people aren't dying en masse like they are with meth or some other drug. So I think there's just so many interesting questions to be mined there and stories to be heard. And then you have like kind of underground movements that come overgrown. So Burning Man is not certainly exclusively about MDMA but that's part of the culture and the rave element of that are the electric daisy carnival. I mean, these are festivals where being part of the throb, right? Yeah, exactly. And as you point out in your subtitle, that question of looking for connection. How is there a quick explanation of how MDMA does that? Because most people would agree that it's like if you're in the right set and setting and you take MDMA, like you have this sense, people talk about an oceanic sense of unity and whatnot. And it is beautiful, it's very deep and moving. Definitely, I mean, I think it really serves the purpose of these gatherings in the past that we could rely on from religion or mist able gatherings or whatever that we're really missing today and people are seeking that out. I mean, I know that's why I like to go to raves. In terms of what it's actually doing, I mean, massive dumps of serotonin, it not only blocks your receptors in your brain from taking up serotonin, which is the sort of jack of all trades. Neurotransmitter does all kinds of things but your neurons actually dump out their stores of serotonin, something like 80% of your serotonin floods your brain on a night of MDMA or a day. Oxytocin gets triggered as well. So there's just this whole chemical formula that's going on in your brain to produce that feeling. New. How do different generations view or use MDMA differently?  You know, do people like that use MDMA in a different way than you know, people your age or Gen Z? Great question. I honestly, I think it more just comes down to an individual preference. So I was gonna bring up Charlie, you beat me to it. You know, Charlie and his community oftentimes use MDMA and a way to, they dance, they have a great time, but they also connect on this, you know, with spoken word. They share their traumas. They find group healing through talking. I tried that and I cannot talk. Like I just wanna dance. That's just me, but I know people my age or younger who also, you know, prefer to be at home and just like chat and put on some nice music. So I really think it just, it's who you are and it might be, you know, what you're in the mood for. How do you think MDMA specifically fits into the larger kind of resurgence of psychedelics? Yeah. Well, I do think that MDMA is paving the way through this potential FDA approval. I think all things look good for MDMA to be the first psychedelic over that finish line. So, you know, that is absolutely major. You know, I think MDMA in a way, it hasn't held things back, but you know, returning to that stigma and that taint we talked about in the 90s and 2000s. And I think that was a really big obstacle to overcome in a way that mushrooms didn't have to overcome because they just didn't have that same like negative connotation that MDMA or LSD had. I mean, you never hear anything about LSD, hardly at all. MDMA, you know, I hear less about than I hear mushrooms. Like I was reading UC Berkeley's newsletter today, The Microdose and it's like, oh, Indiana's moving to, you know, invest dollars in psilocybin research. I mean, for DSD and this and that, but you don't, the states aren't as eager to do MDMA, which, you know, I think it is the connotations, the stigma from earlier decades and also referring back to that synthetic issue that you mentioned, you know, for some reason, people are more comfortable with, you know, a natural substance than one that was made in the lab. Yeah, legalizing nature, meaning, I mean, there's a lot of movements to just say, plant-based ethyngogens or certain types of psychedelics. Maybe it's their harder to regulate because they could grow anywhere, but yeah, we have this, I think it's an artificial distinction between nature and artifice. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. But at the same time, I think MDMA is just such a useful and powerful tool for therapy, just because it's such an easier medicine to work with or substance, I guess. I mean, it's like, I would assume I've never actually done it in a strictly therapeutic setting, but it's, I don't know, it's like having novocaine before a filling or something like it just, it primes you to have the work done, right? That's perfect, yeah, exactly. It's just this catalyst to make everything work better.  You know, the number of people who report using, you know, LSD or MDMA or mushrooms in the past year are, I mean, in the very low single digits of people over the age of 18. Why are we, why does there seem to be so much interest in this? I mean, it's definitely changing these things. The laws seem to be changing. And there's a cultural moment where a lot of serious people are talking about this, a lot of creative people are talking about this. Cultural, you know, kind of artifacts of this stuff are coming out all over the place. What's going on? Definitely, I think it's a complex mix. So I think people are just fed up with the war on drugs.  I think people also have come to realize that the quick chemical fix that we were hoping would come through psychiatric drugs isn't working, you know? There's more and more people suffering from things like depression, anxiety, trauma, you know, the list goes on. So we're looking for other answers.  Yeah, they're gonna do what Prozac failed to do. Exactly. And people want, you know, to believe in these magic cures.  Do you, you know, a parallel with maps, they're a bit behind it, but Compass Pathways Pharmaceutical Company has gotten, they're pushing psilocybin trials for depression and anxiety with the FDA. Is there, is that a good sign or a bad sign? That, you know, that big pharmaceutical companies are kind of starting to circle around this and be like, okay, there's a real opportunity here. Yeah, I mean, I think unfortunately it was just inevitable. You know, if it's great that they're pushing trials through to get these medications to people, you know, the monetization of it isn't great, but it's just, this is the system we live in. And I don't think that psychedelics were ever gonna be able to reform the system. You know, Rick Doblin was hoping that he could get MDMA over the finish line with Charity Alone. And I mean, incredibly, he raised 140 million plus dollars on donations. And then he even says himself that he was sort of a victim of his own success because by helping bring the psychedelic renaissance about through maps, suddenly we have these companies like Compass Pump popping up that are for profit. And then donors are like, well, why would I give you free money that I'm not gonna see a return on when I could make an investment over here? So maps isn't gonna make it over the finish line with MDMA as a philanthropy funded product. They just spun out a pharmaceutical arm that is for profit. They have a board, they have investors, you know, they tried really hard not to, but this is just the system that we live in. It's also fascinating because, and I know maps is doing this by tying it with therapy, but most of these substances, and I guess this is true of some pharmaceuticals, not all, but like the actual pills, you know, cost pennies to make, but then it's hard to actually kind of monetize it. And that's, you know, there's ketamine therapy, which is kind of related to this, where the ketamine is effectively zero dollars. And then the other stuff is where the money is gonna be. And that presents challenges for the existing structure because pharmaceutical companies make money selling pills, not selling pills attached to the six week therapy session or something like that. Do you see any big obstacles in, you know, the next couple of years to the medicalization and or legalization of these substances?  I mean, there's a lot of positive signs from the federal government that they're into this, you know, Biden released some memo about it. There's language and a new bill about veterans for investigating this. But, you know, I just, the government is very, very conservative so I can see there being all kinds of like hitches that, you know, delay this like years. But hopefully not. I think we need to bring it all full circle and who knows who's gonna be president next year, but if, you know, it's Nixon who started the current war on drugs, went to China as a, you know, an anti-communist, Biden as the drug warrior, he needs to go to the electric daisy carnival, right? And end it. I endorse this. Very something. Yeah, okay. Everyone, you heard it here, yeah. All right, well, we're gonna stop there. The book is I Feel Love. The author is Rachel Newer. Thanks for talking. Thanks so much for having me. It was delightful.


Today, on the breakfast, no fewer than 109 persons burned to death after fire got in an illegal oil refinery site that Abacheke will fire in Iwema community or Haji Iwema local government area or Vimo state. What's the way forward for illegal banquering in Nigeria? Also, on the breakfast from a presidential aide, Renau Markery reveals why the People's Democratic Party might lose its chance of regaining power in the 2023 general elections. How dare we go out of this? And we will review the biggest stories making headlines across national dailies. Good morning to you. Many thanks for joining us. You're watching the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. I am Justin Akadone. I am Messebo for a beautiful morning to you. It's good to have you join us. Yes, it is indeed a pleasure as we slide on straight to top trending. What's making the headlines? What made the headlines over the weekend? And what Nigerians and of course, in Nigerian, of course, I was in Nigeria, you know, talking about the alafi over your past away over the weekend. And he was the king for about 31 years. He got Nigerian stock.  The alafi over your orbala midi at the end of the third. During his ancestors on Friday night, bringing an end to his 52 year illustrious reign on the throne. Each day, the trio bar at the end, me who died at the Afebaba Lola University teaching hospital. He was the longest serving alafi over your. Okay, he was born in 1988, October 15th to be precise, into the Alawu Lodun Royal House and was a member of the House of Oromeo. Iquba Baiyeye, whose mother Ibiron Ked died when he was young, was the son of late Raji Adeniron Adenmi who became a lafi in 1945. He actually became the king at the age of 31 and he has joined his assessors. So first, when that story actually broke, there was a lot of back and forth whether or not the alafi over your joined his ancestors. But we need to understand that the alafi over your, it's a very powerful title in the Yoruba kingdom. It's very, very powerful. If you look at the 17th and the 18th century, you'll also find that prior to this time, there was a lot of political dominance. And so moving away from that, the alafi over your, if you want to look at that particular title, seen as a political head of the empire, he was chosen by your Yomisi, who is supposed to nominate the alafi over your. And it was claimed that he could only appear three times in public. So I really don't know how many times the former alafi actually appeared. However, but that was actually in the pre-colonial time. So because you have the fact that the, or your empire existed at the time, you know, pre-colonial era, the colonial era, and the medieval, you want to say medieval era or the present day, however you want to put it. But it's very, very powerful. It's a very prominent title at the time. They were very involved in protecting the traditional Yoruba cost.  And at that time also, you know, a lot of commercial activities was going on as the forest was also in Ling, you had all of that. He also served as the judicial head at the time.  He also appointed a lot of peasants. You could all remember the Bashu, if I'm not mistaken, if that's been called. I mean, if you look at all of the aforementioned, yes, the Bashu and all the titles, he was responsible for appointing this or that person. So it just brings us back to the fact that we as Africans, we have, you know, our cultural priorities at this time, right? We had a way of governance. We had a way where we govern our first, before we had the intrusion, if you want to say, of the British in the system. But very interesting, a lot of things about him was the fact that he's very schooled, very, very schooled. He was also involved in books, and if you also remember his story. And the fact that the father was very, very deliberate in ensuring that he understands the culture, including religion as well, because at a time where he was supposed to live with the father in Lagos, the father made sure that he had to go back and learn, you know, the traditions of the culture. Of course, we're prowing him, you know, for the future. Yes, he was actually a very long-standing ruler. He wrote for about 51 or 52 years. He was just about 31 when he became, you know, the Alafion of Oyo. And he was the prominent chairman of the council, you know, of all bars and chiefs in Oyo State until May the 3rd, 2011, when former governor Adebari Alawakala announced that the state government had passed the law that introduced rotation of the office of the chairman between the Alafi and two other kings in the state. That's the Lubadon of Ibadon, the son of Obomoshom. Adeyemi had 11 wives, the senior among them being Ayaba Bibat, Adeyemi and them. Usually attended most events with her or with one of the 12 junior wives. Something about his wives and how they were really very popular on social media. Well, it's really interesting. I mean, you don't want to even begin to understand and try to look at what would actually happen to this wives now that he's no longer there. It's quite interesting, you know. Yeah, he had 11 wives, well that's... And about, I think he has like 20, 20 children or thereabouts and so... I think he had more since he had like 11 wives. Well, that's cool, Shah, but it is something about the Yoruba people and next in line of who is going to be Alafi is the next conversation on most people's lives, especially those from that particular area because who is going to succeed him is the next conversation. So for me, what's a concern is that before this time, the pattern and the culture used to be that the eldest son, even if he was, I mean the eldest son would never succeed the Alafi because the Yoruba people would have to choose who becomes, you know... The next in line. The next, yes, in line. And that was how it was done. So it was not that monarchy kind of, you know, governance, it wasn't transferred like Hadiditri because your father was a king, he has to... So I just think that a lot has actually changed if you look at the pre-colonial era. A lot of change now. You know the present day, the medieval era, if you like to put. But, you know, let's see how things pan out. And one of the incidents, there was a certain incident that happened where all the kings were actually summoned sometime at the AFCT and he constantly stood out. He spoke, he was very vocal about certain things and he made his present known. A lot of people said that he was very, very humble. There was never a time that you could find him very angry. And so there was a time where you had a gathering of kings, you know, so you have the oba's, you have the Sultan of Sokoto. And he was reported that, you know, for... The second rule was made available for the oba's.  So when he got to the point where he was asking for his sit and it was being told to sit behind, what he did was he took the tag beside the Sokoto, you know, the Sultan of Sokoto and just sat beside him feeling that, I mean, why should I be relegated to the back? He was such a very prominent king, if you like to say. He was. And his voice was heard in different parts. So our hearts that easily go out to, you know, members of his family and of course all the people of Yoruba and who has just lost, or have just lost, you know, the king who has been on the throne for 52 years. Well, let's move on right now to some other trending matters. Kimya Deityba is in the news over the weekend. She tied the knot. You remember King of Boys? Yes, Kimya Deityba was the director of King of Boys. And she just tied the knot with Habu, who is Ganea. It was a very colorful one and it was graced by, you know, a lot of nollywood, you know, stars there. It was very, very interesting. Nigerian filmmaker, music video director, movie director, television director, she has a whole lot going for her. And producer, whose works have been aired on MTV, base BET, Channel O, Sound City, and Netflix. No other than Kimya Deityba tied the knot with her Ganean lover, who is a music executive, Oscar Hemman Aka. Recall that Deityba had shared beautiful moments from her surprise marriage proposal, which occurred in Ghana on the 28th of January this year. Now the King of Boys I filmmaker revealed that her lover, Oscar Aka, popped up the question and she wholeheartedly said, yes, well the entire netizens, while they just concluded colorful traditional marriage ceremony of actress Rita Dominic and her husband, and next we have this particular one, Kimya Deityba and Ganea and Boo. We wish both of them the newly wed, all the best of a marital bliss. So the question would be why is Kimya Deityba on the trend and why is the conversation, first of all, great, fantastic directing of that movie, King of Boys. For a lot of people that would be, what would have brought her to lamb light. And that's on the other side because I'm sure that as much as you say she's very popular and she's very relevant. A lot of people might not really resonate up until you have this particular one so it's like an inclusive. But top of the chart is the fact that if you look at the age, I mean Rita Dominic over the weekend, right, was it over the weekend? No, Tuesday last week. Okay, so just like yesterday, I'm trying to say 46 years old, 46 years old and you also have Kimya Deityba who's 42. So a little bit of some similarity. Basically that's what people are talking about. So the conversation has been what's the age bracket? Who puts the age limits? An expectation. That's a good thing. I'm sure that's why a lot of Nigerians and a lot of people could say, hey, you see you had working women very dedicated and committed. Not to say that they're absolutely perfect. There's two, you do have your flaws, but you just ask yourself why a lot of people just endeared to celebrate these people because you have a lot of weddings happen every day.  So what's really special? Yeah, like you said, the age thingy, not sounds good to say message Johnson. Rita Dominic in 46.  I don't know.  Anyway, Rita Dominic got married on Tuesday and like three, four days later, it is Kimya Deityba. It just goes with the narrative that the lay is not actually denied. Most people would just, well, there's one that's messy. This is a thing for us here, Nigerians. When you're over 30, 35, they're like, she never married or what's going on? No, no, she reached 40. She was three, three born. All those talk, people would actually go on about women. I don't know why they do that, but the fact is that whenever you decide, even if you decide to marry, it is your business. The fact is that so long as you get into it and you have found the love of your life and you are happy, your happiness is what counts and not exactly what any other person feels or thinks about them that you are old or you're getting older and yet you've not settled down. Whose business is it? Well, it might just be the business for us because it is part of our culture. I mean, we have extolled this. We have made this a lot. And I just think that it would be okay for us not to pressure people. Just allow them to be. No, not at all. It should be. But we wish them the very best. I mean, everyone is getting married, including Kemi Aditi bar, Rita Dominic and everyone who's got it married. We wish you the very best, blissful one and continue to celebrate. Yes, congratulations to Kemi Aditi bar. And of course, once again, we wish both of you the best. Moving on, I'm still talking about marriage, making marriage or marriage being broken and all of that. Beautiful actress Caroline, though she's not acted in the wild though, Caroline Dandrumma is in the news and this time around she made some statement. She said that popular blogger is responsible for the crash of her marriage. Specifically, she is actually blaming Linda EKG for the crash of her marriage. She said something about Linda posting something about her and that she tried at reaching out to Linda. Linda couldn't be bothered. Let me just see if I could give you a background. Nollywood actress Caroline Dandrumma has revealed reasons for her marriage to the younger brother of Nigeria's former defense minister, General T. Y. Dandrumma did not work. Speaking in the latest episode of Reality Show, Real Housewives of Lagos, Dandrumma said contrary to her, she married her ex-husband for love and not for money, adding that Linda EKG is also responsible for her broken marriage. She said, quote, part of the reasons why my marriage broke was because of Linda EKG. I reached out to her when she wrote some things, but she didn't care. So, popularly known as Caroline Uduakabasiakanim, she got married to Dan Jemaya and a lot actually happened. Well, I think that this conversation is part of, you know, the reality TV show, I mean, the series is going on, that particular series, that's popular. You mentioned it already, the Housewives of Lagos, yes, basically. And so you could see a lot of rage. That also generated, you know, it brought back memories of the times where Linda EKG was on top of the issue of blogging and some people have said that her activities have destroyed a lot of persons.  A lot of persons, though, Lamy Day was also part of, you know, some reports from Linda EKG at a particular time. And some people are saying, oh, let's make an excuse for her, she was very young and experienced and I don't really know, but it's quite sad. I might not quite really agree with how that contributed to destroying her marriage, because I really don't... It depends on what she was watching or what she was posting. So if you say that that contributed, in what sense, one would expect that if you are married, you are married. And so should stories, was it because of the stories that were posted? Because she sounded very pained about the fact that her daughter was going through a lot and then, you know, Linda EKG was putting up some stories that really didn't add or be quite hot as a person. And so these were some of the narrative, I mean, or some of the expressions she put out at the time. But the big question would be, in that real sense, did the blog, I mean, did, how did Linda EKG crash the marriage? Exactly. That's what she should be telling that she should be doing. Because I don't understand how. No, maybe. Let me not assume. I don't know. Let me not do anything. It's okay. It's not assumption. It's not assumption.  Possibilities. Possibilities. What could he be? What is it? Maybe something negative. Something, you know, damning about her. So if somebody writes something negative about your wife, so you take it, who climbed the table? No, sometimes it happens. You know, especially when you are a celebrity, when you're a public figure, and that some several, several, depends on the post that, when it might not just be about the both of you. You know, when you're married to a man in the African or Nigerian set, you're married to the entire family. You know, various, maybe something negative about her. You know, there'll be like a backlash from family members, you know, or like a look at what your wife is doing. Sometimes you might not want to just react, but somehow it might just start sinking in. Somehow, you know, if you allow it to bother you a bit, these things really do happen, you know. Oh well, it's unfortunate what has actually happened has happened, but I'm sure that we get to see a lot actually unreal. I mean, it's a lot to grapple with for us as a country. Some people would say we need to get to a platform where people can watch us as a country, because there's a lot of drama that unfolds every day. But these are our top trending conversations. I mean, things that generated a lot of reactions in different spaces in Nigeria. We definitely return with more interesting top trending conversations. In the meantime, we'll take a break. When we return, we continue the breakfast with the people. Stay with us.


Shipmates, Marines, and families, Admiral Gillingham here. I'm here to share my concerns about the COVID-19 Delta variant. The Delta variant is now the leading variant in the United States and has contributed to a 400% increase in COVID-19 cases since June 20th. This variant is significantly more transmissible than any other COVID-19 variant. Viruses attacking our younger populations at an alarming rate. Age groups that were not previously affected in high volumes are now being hospitalized with severe illness. The good news is that the current vaccines provide upwards of 95% protection against COVID-19. This is the best way to protect yourself, your friends, and your family from this fatal adversary. This is an epidemic of the unvaccinated that is preventable. Bottom line, if you are unvaccinated, you're at risk. Take responsibility and take immediate action. See your healthcare provider to discuss any concerns. Get vaccinated. The benefits of being vaccinated are proven and clear. We have the biological body armor to wipe out this enemy and remain mission ready. Let's use it.


So listen, if you're watching this video right now, that means that the Detroit Lions will be making the 2022-2023 NFL playoffs. I know off-top it sounds crazy, but we're gonna take a dive into the schedule and I'm gonna tell y'all how things are gonna play up. So the first five games of the season, I really think they can go four and one and look, because I really wanna say five and no, but I'm trying to be modest. I think the one loss on there is New England, Philadelphia, Washington, Minnesota, Seattle, they don't put any fear in my heart. So I'm gonna say four and one out of those first five. Now with Detroit's next six games, I think they get three of them boys coming off the Dolphins, the Bears, and the Giants. And in their last six games, I think they get four wins with their only losses coming from Minnesota and Green Bay. So that means Detroit is gonna finish off 11 and six, and we're going to the playoffs. You heard it here first, go Lions, baby.


Johnny Dollar. Mr. Dollar, this is Lawrence Penworthy Thurston, sir. Thurston? Yes, sir. I am the local representative for the State Unity Life Insurance Company down here. Down where, Mr. Thurston? Casey, South Carolina, sir. Casey, that's somewhere near Columbia, the state capital, isn't it? Yes, sir. It's practically a part of it. And while you're down here, you all must be sure to visit our fine old state house and some of the other fine old historical places we have and are mighty proud of. While I'm down there? You can come right away, I hope, sir. Well, I don't see any reason why not. Good. What seems to be the trouble, Mr. Thurston? Well, I'm afraid, sir, that one of our most important clients, at least wise from the standpoint of all the insurance that you carry with us. Yeah. Well, it looks to me as though somebody might be wanting to kill this fine lady. To collect the insurance, hm? Well, sir, now I didn't say that, but if you all are free, I'd suggest you come on down here and kind of look the situation over. Mr. Thurston, I think you're right. The CBS radio network brings you a Mandel Kramer and the exciting adventures of the man with the action-packed expensive house, America's fabulous freelance insurance investigator, yours truly, Johnny Dollar. Expense account submitted by a special investigator, Johnny Dollar, to the State Unity Life Insurance Company office in Casey, South Carolina. Following is an account of expenses incurred during my investigation of the all-what matter. Expense account item one, 5110 Plain Fair, Hartford to New York to Columbia, South Carolina. It was close to midnight when the plane sat down at the airport. So item two, a total of 1850, covers a cab in to the DeSoto Hotel, a late, late supper. Some of that well-known pounding of the pillow, then breakfast in the taxi to the office of State Unity over in Casey. The office happens to be on State Street, not far away from station WCAY, which incidentally carries the radio reports of these cases of mine every week. The insurance man, Thurston, turned out to be around, pleasant whitehead fellow in his early sixties with a soft, warm, southern accent so thick he could cut it with a knife. All right now, Miss Dollar, would y'all care for a cigar? Thank you, but I'll smoke one of these cigarettes. You don't mind? Not at all, not at all. Here's what my friends up north all would smoke up there where they make them. Up north? North Carolina, Virginia, where they... Oh, I see. Yeah, but all right now, Miss Dollar, this client of mine is a fine lady by the name of Miss Melanie Ramsey Pembroke. And you said it looks to you. Miss Dollar, she'd come from one of the finest wealthiest old families we got around here. Yes. Yes, so it dates back to 1718 on the Ramses side. That is when they first put up old Fort Congaree just south of here, the place they called Grand Bay. Fort was to keep away the Indians named after the Congaree River. Yes. Or maybe it was the other way around. The river named after the fort. Anyhow, that was long before the war. I mean, the war. Yes, I'm sure it was. Anyhow, a great, great grandfather. Or maybe it was a great, great, great... Well, anyhow, Colonel Jacob Ramsey got a hold of thousands of acres all over these parts. And Miss Dollar, the Ramses side of that family's had money ever since. And that includes up to the present. Yes. Now, you said that this Mrs. Ramsey Pembroke... The boss writes a Miss Melanie Ramsey Pembroke lives in the one fine, big old home over in Ramsesville. You just take the Platt Spring Road out of Casey and you follow the sign and you can't miss it. And what's happened to her? Well, Miss... You saw on the phone that you think somebody wants to kill her. Yes, sir, I do. Why? Because of that package you received in the mail just before I called you up in Hartford. And the reason I called you, sir, is the count of Ramsesville is so small, hasn't got itself any kind of a police department. I see. What was in the package? Well, mind you, I didn't see it. I didn't see it for myself. All I know is what she told me on the phone before I called you. What did she say was in it? And of course, with her young husband being away. That's, sir, Mr. Peter Pembroke. Mr. Pembroke?  Mr. Pembroke, would you get to the point, please, about that package? Oh, yes, sir. I certainly will all right then. Because, Mr. Darla, the way I figured out, you better rent yourself a car and get yourself over there to see her just as quick as you can. The package. Well, Miss Darla, you know what was in it. What? One of those, what you all call, one of those infernal machines. Infernal machines? I'm sorry, you mean a bomb? Yes, sir. And if I was you? Yes. All right, Mr. Thurston. I'll see you later. I spent item three, 50 bucks, for deposit on a rental car. Fortunately, finding Ramsay, though, was just as easy as Thurston had said. Also, as he told me, there wasn't much to the place, except for Ramsay now, the Pembroke home. I was met up the door of my Mrs. Melanie Ramsay Pembroke herself. She was in her late 40s and still very beautiful, or perhaps Hanson was a better word. I'll put it this way. And that fine, dignified, well-kept old home she fit perfectly. Please do sit down now, Mr. Darla. And let me tell you about this terrible thing that's happened, this horrible infernal machine. Yes, ma'am, thank you. My husband is away, you see. He spends a great deal of his time out selling things. I believe you call it on the road. What does he sell, Mrs. Pembroke? Some kind of tools, I think they are, for big companies. Machine tools? Yes, that's what he calls them. He's really not very good at it. Mr. Darla, I've insisted he do something with his time, and that's it. Mrs. Pembroke, before we go any further, I want to ask you a question, and I hope it won't embarrass you. Yes? How old is your husband? He is 11 years younger than I am. I see. And, uh, like yourself, rather wealthy? No, I'm afraid things were rather difficult for Pete until we got married. How long ago was that? Been there for four years now. I see. And where did you say that this present selling trip had taken him? He flew to Milwaukee and Minneapolis and Duluth, and he should be back any time now. Mm-hmm. Would you go on, please? Well, there really isn't much to tell you. I received this rather badly wrapped package early yesterday. After noon. There was no return name or address on it. Or perhaps it was torn off. Yes. I know I do. Who might be sending me something. So, like a curious child, I guess I shook it. Mm-hmm. And then I noticed the strange sort of ticking sound inside of it. Well, Mr. Darla, perhaps I've been reading too many mystery stories while Pete is away. I see. But I'm glad I have. Because what I did was throw it in that window and throw it out in a little fish pond out there. And then what happened? Nothing. Nothing at all. But a few minutes later, when I went out to look at it, that package had fallen all apart. Uh-huh. And here, Mr. Darla, I'll show you what's been wrapped up in it. Do you see? I certainly do. That's a time bomb, all right? Luckily for you, it's a pretty crude one. Throwing it into the fish pond not only broke a couple of the wires, but got it all wet and ruined the detonating device. I can hardly believe it, Mr. Darla. As I told Mr. Thurston, Lucy, though somebody wanted, so somebody would tell me...  Yes, that to me. Tell me one thing, Mrs. Pembroke, could you read the postmark on the package? Yes. Did it come from Milwaukee or Minneapolis or Duluth? No. Where? It came from Chicago. Chicago? Well, that's bound to have been a stopover on his plane route. Yes, I guess it. Oh. Yes. Oh, no. Good heavens, Mr. Darla. If you mean what I think you do, oh, no, it couldn't be. Couldn't it? Suppose we'd see. News is no respecter of broadcasting schedules. News doesn't obediently wait until it's convenient for a newscaster to talk about it. Here at the CBS Radio Network, CBS News now makes use of an innovational system called NetAlert. By the simple pressing of a button in New York Central Control, the new NetAlert system instantly cues every CBS radio station across the country that an important bulletin is coming up. NetAlert, another reason why CBS News remains the most complete news service in broadcasting today. Any fingerprints on the crew's time bomb had been too badly smudged by her handling of it to be of any use. The postmark on the wrapper said it was mailed from Chicago only two days before. But when I checked the hotel Mrs. Pembroke said he used in Duluth, I learned that he'd been there for the past four days and had just left to come back home. Did someone else then mail the package from Chicago for him? Maybe, but she still wouldn't believe you. My own husband would send me this murderous thing. Well, it is a possibility, isn't it? No. You don't know him. He's so kind and gentle. He's so good-hearted and I mean he's so good-hearted. Is there a difference?  Yes, well, also I'm afraid it's beside the point. But you mustn't think that Peter did this. You mustn't. I was interested in this terrible thing that you're thinking. I'm sorry. If you can find out who sent me this mom and why, very well, that's your job. But you must not under any circumstances, not for one minute, suspect Peter. Promise me one thing, Mrs. Pembroke. Well? That you'll let me know as soon as your husband gets back here. I'll be at the desoda. Would you do that? If you insist. You must also promise me that you will say nothing to him, absolutely nothing about this bomb until I've had a chance to see and talk with him. No, Mr. Dahl. Otherwise, I'll have to drop the case. Now, you don't want me to drop it, do you? When there's always the chance that something like this might happen again. Well? Well, of course not. Do you have your word, Mrs. Pembroke? Very well, Mr. Dahl. You have my word. Thank you. I had him forward ten cents for a phone call to the desk at the hotel where I'd registered, and I left instructions about forwarding any phone calls that I might receive. Then I drove over to station WCAY. After swapping the usual amenities with the station manager and program director, I talked with young Bill Barrett of the news bureau, kind of feeling my way gently, so not to arouse any suspicion. So you aren't here just on a sightseeing trip, Johnny? Why not? Don't you think I'm entitled at some time off to kind of roam around and look at this country of ours as much as anybody else? Don't kid me now, Johnny. What did you come down here for? I told you, Bill. Look, aren't there any fine old plantation houses around here, the sort we northerners keep hearing about all the time? Oh, there's a few of them left. Of course, there's the old Ramsey Place. Where's that? Over in Ramseyville, if you can call it aville. Old Mrs. Melanie Ramsey Pembroke, last of the line. Pembroke? I thought you said the name was... Well, she married Pete Pembroke a couple of years ago, or three or four. Oh, I see. Another good old southern family. Are you kidding me? Now, but he was smart, Johnny. Pete married into a lot of money there. Oh, good for him. Yeah, sure is. If she doesn't catch up with him, that is. Oh, what do you mean? Well, he's 10, 12 years younger than she is. A real Romeo or maybe Casanova is a better word. That's so. Yeah. Married her for only one thing, that money. What he gets now and what he'll take when she kicks off. It's a funny thing, though. What's that, Bill? Well, she's supposed to be a pretty shrewd character, in spite of all her polite manners and such. But, Johnny, it looks like she's the only one around these parts that isn't wise to him. I mean, he's playing around these so-called business trips he takes. Oh, that kind of... Yeah, a real playboy. And she doesn't know anything about it. You kidding? Of course she does.  You don't know her, Johnny. But, uh, to get back to your sightseeing. Oh, yeah. If you'd like to look around the Ramsey Place, well, uh, maybe one of the boys in the station here knows that. Oh, why bother, Bill? Excuse me. Bill Byrd. Well, yes, he is. Mrs. Lou. It's for you, Johnny. Oh, thanks. And listen, boy, you've been kidding me. Johnny Dollar. This is Mrs. Pambrook. I promised to call you. Oh, he's come home? Half or three-quarters of an hour ago. This is the first opportunity. All right, I'll be right over. All right, Johnny. You were just stringing me along. Now, why? I'm sorry, Bill. I gotta go. I'm out and tired from his trip, Mr. Dollar. And with that heart of his, where he said he was just going to soak away his fatigue in a nice warm tub. I see. And, uh, that's where he is now, Mrs. Pambrook? When he's tired he likes nothing better than to lie down at the tub and read or listen to the radio and relax and... What's the matter? Well, it's just that he's been up there so long now, almost an hour. Well, if he was all tuckered out... You think it's good for him? All that heart wanting for so long? Oh, I don't know why not. No, I don't. I'm going to just make sure that he's all right. Uh, I'll go long if you don't mind. Did you, uh, say anything to him about what happened? No, Mrs. Dollar, I kept my word to you. Good, I'm glad you did. I still know you're entirely wrong, though. I'm sure of it. Right in here now. All right. Peter? Peter? They're just standing aside, Mrs. Pambrook. So many things, the good that it does, the great help that it brings, through united agencies tried and true. United campaign is counting on you. You give mark to my united campaign. Family medical doctor Eustace Culpepper lived only a half mile away, and he was there in minutes. There is no question of it, Mr. Dollar. His heart attack came on dim while he was laying there in the tub, reading or listening to the radio the way he often did. I see. Now, what was that radio on the shelf by the tub turned on? No. At least it wasn't on when I broke in the door. Then he just peacefully read his life away. Doctor, um, had he had a history of heart trouble? Well, he tried to keep it to himself, sir. Even I wouldn't have known about it if Melanie hadn't told me. Too bad him being such a young man and all. Well, I better look in and make sure she's resting properly after that. Little better sedative I gave her. You will excuse me, please. Oh, sure, Doctor. And, uh, if you like, you can make arrangements for the body. Yes. Or maybe I have a better idea. I called the police in Casey then sat down to think. That package with the bomb in it. Mailed from Chicago when Peter Pembroke shouldn't have been there. Well, maybe he didn't mail it or even have it mailed. I went downstairs to the living room and I found a stack of pulp magazines. As I looked through them and I was only interested in the ads, I finally found it. Surprise your friends with mail from all over the world signed and sent by you. For only 50 cents plus regular postage, we'll mail your letter, your package, from anywhere in the United States. And the address of the remaining outfit, of course, was Chicago, Illinois. A simple long-distance call then would tell me who paid to have that package sent on to her. Instead, I went back up to the bathroom where Pembroke's body had been found. I looked around a bit. While I was at it, a policeman came in and got the story from Dr. Culpepper and then joined me. Yes, well, Mr. Culpepper, there's no doubt of it. Mr. Pembroke's pump just naturally gave out on him. It's going on back to finally his report. I mean, I wonder what, if anything, the autopsy will show him. Autopsy, sir? Because what I think happened, officer, of course, maybe the autopsy wouldn't show it in spite of the strained, shocked look on his face as he played here in the water. Well, just what do you get, lad, sir? Well, look here, officer. Right here on the edge of this door. Yes, sir. Same level as the catch, as the bolt that was used to lock the door. Well, the doctor said that you had to break in. Yes, now just look here with him.  Well, I certainly don't, sir. Well, the door was locked all right, but from the outside. No, sir, the handle on that lock is on the inside.  It's long enough. Here, look, I'll just use the hammer of a handkerchief like this. So, as I would a piece of string, I just loop it over this little handle and then I just take the ends around the edge of the door here to the outside and I pull. See? After I've locked the door that way from the outside, I just let go one end and pull a string or whatever I've used and pull it away. Somebody came in here and killed him, then left and locked the door the way you showed me from the outside? That's right. To make it look as though he died in there alone, he was locked in where nobody could get to him. But the doctor said he's hard. Oh, officer, that's the easiest part of all. Look here. One of the most dangerous things that could be found in a bathroom if it isn't handled properly. That little radio? Right here on this shelf above the tub where no electrical gadget should ever be. But the cords pulled out of the wall socket. Isn't that the way you turn it off after using it for a murder weapon to keep from shocking yourself? It's still wet. And the inside of it is soaking wet. And the switch is still on. Mr. Dollar? Mm-hmm. He laid there in the tub of water. The killer came in, turned on the set, then shoved it off the shelf into the tub. Bad heart or good, he didn't have a chance. No wonder that looked on his face. Well, what if he himself reached up out of the water and the cords pulled out the plug and set it back on the shelf so nobody would know? You're right. You're right, sir. He was murdered. But who? The only other person here in the house with him. Because she finally realized that he'd married her only for money. And when she found out he was playing around, it was just too much for that fine old family pride. But the cover-up. Cover-up? That funny infernal machine. Infernal? To be mailed back to herself. Make it look as though he was the one with murder in mind so that nobody, nobody would ever suspect her. Great day. But you did, Mr. Dollar. What? Miss Pembroke? Too bad for both of you. Now, do you think you can shoot fast enough to get both of us? You first, Mr. Dollar. Nice work, officer. Thanks. But to think that I, a gentleman, sir, whatever, struck a woman that way. Well, when it saved us both from getting shot? Well, even so. Well, don't you worry about it, old man. You'll get over it. So, from here on in, it's up to the courts. It's not to be broadcast, but a tidy hunk of this expense account went to that officer who so fortunately for a moment forgot to be a gentleman. You'll notice I haven't given his name. Expense account total including hotel, bill, incidentals in the trip home. Call a 300 bucks even. Yours truly, Johnny Dollar. Well, here is our star to tell you about next week's story. Next week, a wild old man living in, believe it or not, an ancient castle that is complete with Chamber of Horrors. Join us, won't you? Yours truly, Johnny Dollar. Yours truly, Johnny Dollar, is written by Jack Johnstone, produced and directed by Bruno Zirato Jr., a musical supervision by Apple Huber. Johnny Dollar is played by Mandel Kramer, also featured in our cast, where Tony Darnay is Melanie Pembroke, Lawson Zerby is Lawrence Thurston, Dan Akko is Dr. Co-Pepper, and Cliff Carpenter is the policeman. Be sure to join us next week, same time, same station for another exciting story of yours truly, Johnny Dollar. This is Art Hanna speaking.


From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Radio 2018, brought to you by VMware. Hello everyone, welcome to the special CUBE coverage here in San Francisco, California. We're at VMware's Radio 2018 event. This is their annual R&D event. We're all the best people, smartest people come together to collaborate on new projects, new innovations, not imitation innovations, had great speakers up there. They had Steve Herrick, CUBE alumni, now a venture cab is formerly CTO of VMware. And our first guest here today is Ray O'Farrell, Executive Vice President of CTO of VMware, been on theCUBE before. Great to see you, thanks for joining us. Yeah, great to see you, good morning. So I love this event, because it's like you mentioned before we came on camera, Steve Herrick said it's like a sales kickoff for engineers. Correct, yeah. Which is like a rah-rah, but also really motivating, but also putting out the North Star, which is the innovation message. So take a minute to talk about what this event is. Explain to the folks what is Radio 2018, there's a lot of history involved here. Behind us is a T-shirt row of, you know, key milestones in VMware history. Think inside the box now, think inside the cloud. What's this event about? So the event has quite a few years, this is like the 14th year we've done this, right? And when it started, what it was really focused on was in some ways a recognition that as the company begins to grow, as you begin to build new products and engage in new partnerships, in order to keep innovation alive, you obviously need to manage it. The problem is you can't manage innovation, almost by definition, it's something chaotic, it's an inspirational idea, it's something that was not expected, that's what makes it innovation. But what you can do is you can create a culture which promotes that innovation or creates opportunities for those ideas to emerge, or when those ideas to emerge, make sure there's a place for them to be heard and there's an opportunity for a network to build around them. And radio is a part of that. We have lots of other programs in VMware to help keep driving that culture of innovation where radio is probably the premier one. Talk about some of the history from this event. What has come out of these events? Because I want to get into some of the specific questions around how R&D works these days, these are V how it used to work. But specifically what has come out of these events? Can you point to any things that kind of popped out, say, you know, because R&D, I won't say hit or miss, but it's the idea is to experiment and try new things and nail it. What has come out of VMware's radio years of history? Yeah, so very practically, we get a lot of patents out of radio. That's just a very practical sense. As people are building up the papers, as they're looking at the ideas they want to drive, as they work with different teams to build prototypes, quite a few times people will do that at radio when they're making a presentation. They'll generate ideas, invention, disclosures, which generate new patents. This show alone, even though, you know, we're just actually entering the show at this stage, has already generated about nearly 240 IDFs. A lot of those have the potential to become patents. So it's very, very practical and pragmatic about the generation of your patents and new ideas. When you look at the product side of things, quite often what you see at radio is not necessarily a new product in a whole new area. What you tend to see is we've existing technologies bubbling in different spaces, and now because you're able to bring these teams together, somebody gets an idea that says, oh, I can combine machine learning with what we're doing in terms of logging, and now I've got an interesting product to help support our customers, you know, deal with real world products. Just not take that hill, build me a blockchain product. It's more of take a step back, zoom back, look at the big picture, understand the fusion of where things are coming together, look at architecture. Is that kind of the? Yeah, actually sometimes there is to take that hill, take the blockchain product, but quite often it starts at something small. You'll have a radio event where somebody will say, blockchain is cool and interesting. Here's how you run it in a more efficient fashion on vSphere, something like that. And that will be a poster session. And it's only then when somebody sees that that says, I can really run blockchain on vSphere, can I do it better even than on physical in some way? And that's when the story emerges. So you don't necessarily see the product announcement coming from radio itself. What you see is the core of that idea, and then a few months later or the next major VM world or two VM worlds out, you begin to see these things. It's like you're creating sparks of innovation, throw out of the fire, create some action. That's exactly the way it works. Things like a lot of stuff, what we do in containers. The VM were integrated containers, the combination of containers and VMs from a security point of view. You can trace a lot of that back to ideas that were generated for radio. And it's pretty rigorous. People have to go through submit papers. This is submit ideas. Our most senior engineers crawl all over those and critique them. So you see... So it's competitive. Oh, it's very competitive. And it is, in many ways, it's a mark of honor to be invited to radio or to present a paper. And so people fight very hard to do so. Built-in gamification called Just Be Smart and Show Some Good Papers. Yes, it's a little bit tougher. How much goes into the prep for this? Because obviously that's a great bar. You guys said a high bar, like it's great. And it's a great place here for people to stretch and flex their technical muscle. What's the process? How do people get to that bar? Do they collaborate? Is there meetups? Is there organic processes atop down? How do you guys handle it? So we've a lot of different programs around driving innovation. But when you look at radio itself, and it leverages some of those others, when you look at radio itself, basically we create a radio committee. The one for next year will be starting somewhere in the next couple of weeks, right? We create a radio committee. It is typically driven by members of the Office of the CTO, but works and pulls in our fellows, our principal engineers, and we form a committee which really splits into two different directions. One of which is all around the technical papers, the presentations, which are going to be presented later here today. And another one which focuses around how do you do the keynotes? How do you get invited speakers? How do you create this inspirational, pervasive sense of innovation? And so you have those two groups working while cooperating somewhat independently of each other. And it takes a long time. So for instance, approximately, only about 15% of the papers which are actually submitted are presented here. So there's a lot of work going through, scanning those, combining those. One of the most exciting things you can do at VMware is if you go back somewhere in around the February timeframe, all of our most senior engineers sit in one of our largest conference rooms with a bunch of engineers submitting papers and so on. And there is a lively debate working through paper after paper, idea after idea, and saying, is this a good thing for radio? Is this original? Hey, nobody else thought of that. What are we going to be able to do to do that? Or in some cases saying these two people, one from Bangalore, one from Bulgaria, we've are on these sites all over the world, these ideas look similar. Can we get those guys to talk to each other and see what comes out of it? Yeah, so it's kind of a team building exercise at the same time, created innovation. But it's interesting, you mentioned you got the challenge of the papers, which is get the accuracy on the facts, original content, original ideas, and then the content program for the event has to be inspiring and motivating at the same time. Two different things, but two design standards for you guys. And we need to combine them both. And 80% to 90% of the people who are here are hardcore R&D engineers. Their day job is to write code, produce product, architect product. And if you haven't worked with a group of senior engineers, they are not going to be tolerant of presentations, which, oh, we saw that before, or fluff. They want to get hardcore into the meet. In fact, the presentations that you see that get some of the highest ratings tend to be those that are deeply technical in nature. VMware's software base is primarily system software systems engineering. They expect to see deeply technical solutions to how to attack some real work. You guys do have some smart people. It's great having theCUBE. It's our ninth year doing VMworld. Great to start coming into more technical events. It's fantastic. So the question I got to ask for you is Pat Gelsinger always says on theCUBE, he says on theCUBE a few times, but it's a consistent theme.  What is the way that you guys are, you would categorize, obviously cloud is key, but as you have the hyper-convergence and the on-premise private cloud booming, vSAN's great, we've seen great results from that. The cloud's right there, Amazon, you got Microsoft kicking in butt on the numbers. As the R&D tries not to get caught up into the fashionable day to day, you got to have the long view. What's the way for the long view? So I think there's two ways we look at that. One of them is you need to spend a lot of time with your customers and understand what their agenda is, what their innovation agenda is. And when you look at that, you see products popping up. How will I leverage AI in a new and interesting way? How will I do something with blockchain? I want to run AI algorithms. I need different hardware and different management software to do that. So we focus on those and make sure we're doing that. But perhaps more importantly, I think when you begin to look at what's happening with the industry right now, you saw private cloud, you saw public cloud, you see how you connect these together. It's actually that connectivity is going to be important. I believe you're going to see the emergence of edge infrastructure, but isolated? That's not powerful. Now combine that edge infrastructure with how you can leverage what's going in the public cloud or how you're going to be secure all of these in a way that falls back into even telco in some way. You're now beginning to see the synergy across all of those things. And I think that's where our sweet spot is. We know how to deal with those hard, how do I connect things together? How do I manage complex, a different piece of system software? So that's where we're going to see it. It's great stuff. One of the benefits of being so close to VM over the past nine years, and I was showing you some of our online data analysis. When I look at the VMware ecosystem, you interesting see the evolution of the journey 14 years, and looking at the milestones. Clearly infrastructure. On-premise data center then. And then you saw the emergence of the clouds. You start to see these markets emerge. Cloud, big data comes on the scene. Data warehousing begins. Now that's AI, cloud is bigger. All kind of taking a little bit off the infrastructure, kind of squeezing that down, but it moves up into the cloud. And now you've got over the top, blockchain, cryptocurrency, decentralized applications. In the middle of these circles is security, IoT and data. You guys are right there. So I have to ask you, because they're all the confluence of all those are coming together. You're not up here to play blockchain, although there's some stuff we can get into. You got some AI influencing it. So in the center of infrastructure, cloud, AI and blockchain, et cetera, is security data and IoT. How does that come in together? What's the R&D tasks to... Yeah, so actually the key word I think you used there was confluence. You cannot really look at these as independent things. And so our focus is what does it mean to be essentially the infrastructure and the infrastructure management story for that new form of multi-cloud age IoT type of a narrative, right? So our role there is, we believe security is one of the key things to focus on. And we believe that in that new world, connectivity is a key part of what goes on. The edge must talk to the cloud. The cloud must talk to the telco. The telco must talk to the IoT device. They need power. Right, they need power. They need communication. They need those things. So a lot of the time, a lot of where we focus comes back to NSX. We do believe that software defined networking is a key way of being able to deliver a new fluidity of when you get that confluence. And NSX very quickly brings you into security. That's how you begin to understand how you isolate those components, understand what you need to do to detect. When that edge IoT device is not even the device you think it is, somebody might have replaced it. That's where you begin to be able to see the communications and so on from that. So security is key. Interconnectivity is key. And you know, when we speak about IoT itself, I've got a kind of a dual role at VMware. While I'm the CEO of VMware, I also focus on IoT for Dell Technologies. And when we look at that, today many of the examples of IoT are very narrow, almost point solutions. The real power will come when you begin to combine across those solutions. The thing that tells you the weather, the things that tells you the traffic and then the thing that tells you what's the best way to get there in your car or whatever it is. Combine those things. Now you've got to secure all that because you're sharing information. It's super exciting. It's probably a great, best time to be in doing R&D because Dave and Volante and I always talk about it on theCUBE all the time that if everything is cloud operations because everything, the confluence is happening. What is IoT? You have a thin edge. Could be a wind farm, traffic signal, sensor network or it could be a data center. The data center could be an edge. I mean, he could look at it anyway. It depends how you look at it. One of the biggest questions that comes up all the time is what exactly is the edge, right? And I think it means different things to different industries. It's very clear on the extreme edge. That's the device. It's a wind farm. It's measuring the behavior of a robot or something like that. And it's very clear on the other side. That's a cloud. I run a bunch of analytics over there. It's the interesting piece in the middle where there's both a lot of opportunity and a lot of even difficulty defining it. Is the SD-WAN server inside in an office? Is that edge? Yeah, that looks like edge. It's at the edge of the network but it's not controlling something physical. But that SD-WAN server inside in a retail store may well also be doing something but the refrigerators or the cold chain or something in that store. And now you begin to see it more as kind of an IoT device. It's awesome. It's great conversation and certainly fodder for more R&D and more innovation and the management side's key. And again, the holy grail and all this is programmable networks, right? Come on, we've been waiting. How fast is that coming? Pedal harder, come on. I know you've got to go. Thanks for coming on. But I do want to ask you guys are, we'll give you some props and just get your thoughts on obviously blockchain. We see things like Filecoin had a very huge ICO on the hype side. But they really have a product but they're promising. They store using decentralized and with blockchain. Obviously it's a network storage infrastructure. It's not so much selling tokens with token economics although it does have a piece of it. That's going to impact you guys on the horizon. What's the current state of you guys view, your view, the team's view of blockchain? Blockchain? Yeah, I mean, obviously there's a lot of the hype and even some of the valuations and things you see are tied to what's happening on the financial side, Bitcoin and so on. We're not focused on that at all. What we're saying is blockchain or more specifically a distributed hyperledger forms the basis of a community of companies or organizations being able to essentially look at trust as a service. I've got a contract with you. We're now able to look across a group of companies to say we all agree that contract is valid because of our leverage of this blockchain. That is a, that then becomes an application story. How do I run it more efficiently? How do I make sure I run it securely? How do I make sure that that community is able to leverage that service in a shared fashion? And that's what we're focused on. In fact, one of the more interesting things is when you look at things like blockchain, when it's used in the context of something like Bitcoin, there's a degree what people value is a non anonymity. We don't know who bought it, but somebody bought it. But when you look from a trust point of view, we actually want to be able to see who exactly did the contract. I agree that you've put the contract, we've worked this contract together and we're all agreeing with that. So you see these changes when you begin to bring these technology into enterprise. Efficiencies come correct on supply chain. Exactly. Actually, we've put a lot of focus on efficiencies. We've got a research team whose job has been very focused on given blockchain, how do I improve the core algorithms? How do I make them more applicable to something if we run by a typical enterprise or by a group of enterprises? And that's a little bit unusual for us because we're entering a kind of an application space. But what's good about this application space, it is hard systems engineering and that's what we know how to do. And that's why we think this is a great application space for us to be able to deliver real value. And the key word is engineering. You also mentioned earlier, community. Open source has brought this community dynamic together where there's no middlemen. This is the beautiful thing of the future of infrastructure. How do you manage it? How do you make it secure? Trust is a service. You guys are doing a great job. Based on our data, on the ecosystem, you guys have all the waves covered. Ray, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate your conversation. I'm John Furrier here in San Francisco for VMware's Radio 2018, 14th year of their annual engineering kickoff, motivation, hardcore engineering critique and also collaboration with the Sparks of Innovation are happening. We'll be right back with more. Thanks for watching.