Back in New York City, where I belong, among the rain, among the cold weather, the puddles, and the pizza. I ate two bagels this morning. What have you done with yourself today? Let's do it. We've got a lot of storylines to talk about. We're breaking down the playoff picture under reactions. Who, which player, performance coach, fan, whatever, should we hit the lights on and spotlight and give some love? Hit us up at Up an Atom show. And we will talk to the best beat writer as reporters in the business. Let's go. If I could explain the pain of having six pounds of fake hair attached to your scalp and snatched back with 19 rubber bands, I think I could be a linebacker. I think I have the strength of an Aaron Donald. K. Adams here, Up an Atom show coming to you live from New York City. This is not really New York City, but I appreciate the studio space and the time. We're gonna have a really great show for the next hour. We've been breaking news lately, the Sean McCoy. I mean, that will not stop. My friend LaShawn, nice enough to come on the show, gets caught up talking about Belichick. You know Bill's seen that clip. You know their show and that and talking about that up in New England. They might not lose a game from now until the end of the season in that AFC East where they're still very much alive. So lots to get to on the program. Hamilton will be joining me from New York. Too cool to come down and hang out with me in studio, but that's okay. I've also got your best values. I messed up on my parlay. Again, it busted. I don't know how it happened. I'm clearly bad luck. So I'm gonna show you where else you can save a couple of bucks. But let's get into what we do every Wednesday and it's our under-reaction list. And we've beaten all the big storylines to death. So it's time for a few things that we aren't talking about enough. And I'm gonna start where the Super Bowl is going to be in just a couple of months with the Cardinals. Because this Arizona team is something else. I think we are under-reacting to what Colt McCoy's performance on Sunday means for this Cardinals squad. They beat the Rams and I know Matthew Stafford didn't play. But Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey did. And the Cardinals offense looked as functional as it has all year. They looked good. So listen, it wasn't the most spectacular or explosive performance, but the Cardinals put up 27 points and moved the ball consistently up and down the field. At four and six, now four and six with the season hanging in the balance, the cards have to consider I think, and I'm not hearing this enough. And I'm sure Alex Clancy's talking about this and he'd love to come on and chop it up and maybe we'll have him on. I don't hear enough about starting Colt again. And we're talking four and six here. So we're talking about a critical Monday night bright lights matchup against the Niners as part of the international series. They're playing the sucker in Mexico City. Whatever happens with Colt and if whether or not they have a conversation internally he should be out there or Murray or whatever. There is a bigger issue at play here because this off season, Arizona locked up Steve Kime, their longtime GM, head coach, Cliff Kingsbury and Kyler Murray, right? They did this whole thing. And then there's the dog. I don't know what the dog has to do with it, but I think he might be guilty too. Here's the thing. It's a valid question. And by the way, they're locked up through 20, 27 people. Do they get along? Are they friends? Is there dysfunction? Is Taylor Swift not writing some song about this bromance out in the desert?  It seems like there's some sort of disconnect between the three. And I can take it back to the collapses, down the stretch the last few seasons. That's the effort. That's soullessness. That's something going on. There's dramas surrounding the, what were they calling it? The independent study clause with Kyler Murray in his contract that was then removed. That was the huge talk of the off season. And then there's this miserable start to this year when there's so much talent it doesn't add up. And I know a toxic relationship and I see when people, I'm not in that locker room so I can't point to which one it is or if it's even one of them, if it's two of them, if it's the other, but it's obvious that there's something going on and something needs to change. And if Colt McCoy keeps playing the way he's playing and succeeding, it's only gonna shine a brighter spotlight on whatever the disconnect seems to be between Cliff and Kyler. So something has to give. Listen, three's company, Rest in Peace, Jack Ritter, Suzanne Summer, great sitcom in the 80s, but this is not that. Who's it gonna be? What are your thoughts? Add up in Adam's show. You want them to be good, you want them to be successful. We show this montage on our show of the winning teams in the locker rooms and you're seeing Dabel winning and you're seeing the Vikings and Kirk Cousins a lot. And then they show Cliff and he's winning after the game with Colt McCoy with their hands. And I'm just kind of like, I don't know. I don't know what to think about that. All right, we're gonna have some great beat reporters on the show to talk about some of these storylines. And do you wanna know what else we're underreacting to? And we have to hit the lights on a player, a performance or something by the end of the show that deserves some love. I put on Twitter CJ Ham, the fullback for the Vikings. I think it's been like five years since he's had a touchdown, a great fullback. And I got a lot of love for that on Twitter, which you love to see. So if you have anybody hit me up, definitely. Okay, so let's go to another thing that I think we're underreacting to. And I wanna go to a team that I always hear from their fans about we don't talk about them and we don't, and this year I'm somehow not. I'm talking about the Titans. And I do think we are underreacting to the Titans and I wanna hear from those fans because they keep winning despite having the weakest offensive output of any team in the league right now. And that my friends is hard to do. Look at what I mean. Look at these numbers. Hamilton puts us together and he'll be joining me in a second to give his thoughts here. The Titans rank dead last offensively right now. Dead last, yet somehow they're topsy AFC South. You can talk about the division being what it is. But they've won six games. Winning six games is not easy and they've done it by a significant margin. So if you put the context together here, they're on track, get this, to join the 1989 Steelers. Another Taylor Swift reference there. Couldn't get tickets, tried buying tickets for Taylor Swift for like seven hours last night for Mindy's Maya. So anybody has any ins, let me know. But 1989, of course, the Taylor Swift album but also the last time that this happened, they're the only other team, those 1989 Steelers since the merger to make the playoffs finishing last in total offense. It's impressive people. It doesn't happen very often. So they would be the first to ever do so and win a division title, which is a little mind blowing emoji. And I do think we have to give credit to Mike Rabel. That's the guy. He is the reigning coach of the year, lest you forget. But I think what he's doing right now is even more impressive than last year. Taylor Luan is out. No Harold Landry. They lost Tannehill for a few games. They deal away A. J. Brown.  But this guy in these stupid shorts in the cold weather is still finding a way. And don't let this tough guy wear shorts when it's cold act, you know, or the talk of cutting off appendages. Yeah, that's, I'm bringing that back to 2022.  This guy, that man out there that needs to go to Dick's Sporting Goods and get some of the North Face fleece pants or something. He is doing this without, I mentioned Harold Landry. That's his best pass rusher. And somehow he is schemed up and absurd 77 quarterback pressures out of his defense over the last two weeks. That is almost double the next closest team. How do you do that? How does that happen? I bet you LaShaw McCoy thinks he's a better coach than Bill Belichick. And he is finding ways to get just enough out of his offense. He's dialing up plays. I mean, remember this? Can we bring this up? Dial this up. The flee flicker, guys. Oh, come on. Come on. And it's the perfect time he's doing this. Down three to Denver. Come on. At some point, they need to get this offense going if they're going to contend in this conference, of course. The AFC is loaded. But you got to give brave bulls. And Titans fans, I'm annoyed with you. Where have you been? Why aren't you bothering me for not talking? Why aren't you bothering everybody for not giving you any love?  You are finding ways to win regardless. And yeah, I'm going to whip this. I'm literally going to cut this pony off.  This is outrageous. Okay. We now also, what else are we underreacting to? If I don't have tweets, and I'm going to look right now. Oh, see, that would be cute. I want to look at tweets really quick. Are people tweeting anything that we're underreacting to? I know Taylor Fu is all over it. I don't think I have internet in here. I got to get hooked. Oh yeah, we'll get hooked up to that. Lots of shams love on the old Twitter feed. Lots of cut Conrad's hair. But what are we underreacting to and not beating dead? And all we're talking about, of course, is the Packers and the quarterback play and Tom Brady turning it around. I'm going to go, I'm not going to say I'm going to go negative here.  And whether it's by market, whether it's by big city, whether it's by pedigree, or just general punching bag worthiness. I don't know, but I do believe that we collectively are underreacting to how bad the Rams have been this season.  And it's not true, but now we have news that Cooper Cuff's ankle injury, he's on IR, and LA is well on their way to joining this list. Take a look at this, guys. And while, yeah, it's not totally unheard of for Super Bowl champs to miss the playoffs, the next year, it's a little insane to have it happen and barely be a blip on the radar. For some reason, we are not talking about the Rams. I don't understand. I'm gonna stop it right. I mean, I'm obviously a supporter of the Bengals. We are going to talk about the Bengals with an Intrepid Beat reporter close to the team there as they come off their bye. But the Bengals started this season slow. They reshuffled an offensive line. And everyone's like, Bengals aren't going anywhere. They're not, look at how bad they are. And there's people piling on the Cincinnati squad. The Cincinnati squad had a great run last year and lost the Super Bowl. What about the team that talked so much and then went to the Super Bowl and won it in what they're not doing to start this year? And yes, Eric Weddle will be here tomorrow. We'll have to talk all about this because Matthew Stafford's arm, I said this before the season started and now it just hasn't looked right. And it hasn't looked right since that elbow surgery. And then of course he's dealing with his own issues. Now, I think we're gonna keep going here. The O-line, no Andrew Whitworth. He's out there doing his thing for Amazon Prime. I can't even imagine, I have no knowledge of this but there's gotta be conversations happening about him coming back because the run game does not exist. None of the receivers other than Cup have performed and there's just no juice to this team at all. So I think we are seeing the toll that the SM Picks approach can take on a squad. Listen, they have no depth and they haven't been able to replace the players who've declined or moved on because they've had no draft capital. Yes, they got the Rams and the Lombardi and they did all these things to get these wins. But, and I understand that you take that trade up. Would you trade off your future and contending every year for that championship? I get it. But remember, they were a jacquoise guitar drop interception away from absolutely being left totally empty handed. So if you look at the Chiefs as a contrast, and I was talking to Hamilton, I'll bring Hamilton here in a minute. You know, the Chiefs have a ring. They have two conference championships. They made a consecutive AFC title game by taking a long-term approach. That's what they did. They traded away a top player in his prime, Tyreek Hill. They traded away Tyreek Hill. Why? To help rebuild and bolster and add depth to the rest of the roster. Look who they've added through the draft in the last three years alone. You're looking at it right here. 15 of the Chiefs, 22 starters right now were drafted by the team. That's so freaking impressive. And the trades they do are usually value pickups. You get a Kedarius Tony deal. Even when that happened, everyone's like, all right, whatever. Look at what they are doing, right? And they got a first round talent for a third round compensation in pulling for that deal. So, SM picks is a look. It's definitely a catchy slogan. And it got them a ring with the Rams. And I do give Snead and McVeigh all the credit in the world for making it work last year. But was that the plan? Or is it a cautionary tale? You can one off a Super Bowl with that strategy, but in order to build a team that can consistently contend year after year, you sort of need to know how to use those picks. Hamilton, it's an interesting conversation. You and I had it on the phone at one of our many phone calls. I don't know that I would, I like what the Rams did because they do have a championship and that's whatever. And then they're celebrating and it's okay.  But you know, a team that's always good. Like a Ravens, a blue chip stock NFL squad. I don't know, I kind of like what the Rams did, but it's a good conversation. Ian, I think anytime you can make that trade-off for a ring, I think you'll always take the ring. One ring is worth, you know, 10 seasons of going through some struggles, I think. Any organization would take that. But yeah, I think ideally though, you wanna build a team that's healthy, sustainable and contending year to year to year. And obviously that's not easy to do. We saw New England do that for a while. Obviously when you get a franchise quarterback who's young and you can build around it, it helps you do that. But I think ideally that's kind of the way you wanna do it. And we saw New England do it for that entire stretch of almost 20 years. And I think if, you know, we're gonna see the Chiefs do that for a very long stretch right now too, where they're gonna be in the mix for a Super Bowl nearly every season with the way that they've built up their depth and some of the other pieces around my homes through the draft. And I think when you look at the Bengals, you mentioned the Bengals earlier, I think they're gonna be an interesting case study in this because they could go one way or the other right now.  Do they decide, okay, we know we're gonna have to pay them soon like let's make a bunch of crazy trades to get some of that's in and try to get that ring. Or do they start shuffling around some of those assets? Maybe trade a T Higgins to get some good draft compensation to keep rebuilding that roster. So I think we're gonna see them go through this tough decision now in the next year or two. But there a chance for the Rams here? I don't think so this season, especially with this Cooper Cup news now. And you know, as you mentioned the Stafford's elbow, I think there definitely is something off there. There's just nothing, this team just doesn't have anything going right now to make you feel confident they can turn it around. Cardinals are you as worried as I am? There's something going on. I mean, it's not okay. Yeah, I think I almost wonder how different things would be if the Cardinals didn't take out the independent study clause. Cause once you put it out there, does it really help you like PR wise to then walk it back? Like it's already out there. We already know that you wanted to do this. And it seems like it's something that Kyler needed. And if it was the caveat that you needed to be able to give them that long-term deal, it made a lot of sense to me. Because clearly it's just the offense doesn't run the way it's supposed to run. Kyler can make some phenomenal plays, but you see it, the ball's not getting out on time. And when Colt McCoy is in there, it's a marked difference. Not saying that Colt McCoy is better than Kyler. But Colt McCoy knows how to run the offense. And Kyler right now looks like he's having issues with that. And then him and DeAndre Hopkins on the sideline, they've got these HBO cameras in everybody's face. And it just doesn't, I don't know what's gotta go, but it's almost like something's gotta go. And it's not a good look when Colt goes out there and they decide to look as functional as they've looked all season. All right, we've got more to come. Marissa Contip, Kelly is on the program. She's gonna talk to us about those bangles coming off a buy and we'll check in with more reporters. You've got Vikings covered. And we'll talk also about, I don't even know. Oh my gosh, a good old fashioned snowball and buffalo this weekend, yay. Hey, Adam's back with your weather on the nines. The forecast and buffalo this weekend calls for four to six feet of snow, burr. Let's head to Western New York and get the latest here with Maddie Glav, the bills reporter. Maddie, welcome to the show. Love you, love your work there for those bills. I gotta say, when I hear snow, I think nope, not going, not interested, but I have a feeling Buffalo fans embrace it. Is it like a happy thing that you're gonna get four to six feet? I think people actually enjoy the first snowfall here, especially when you hear it's gonna be four to six feet. I don't know if people love that aspect of it, but there is some excitement around the first snowfall. I think as Buffalonians and as people who know what snow is and who experienced a lot of snow during the winter, we always laugh at when people predict that first snowfall because they're usually wrong, but when lake effect gets put in front of winter storm, you have no idea what's gonna happen. It could dump four to six feet. It could also dump four inches. At this point, they're calling for a lot, so that's what we're expecting, but who the heck knows? It's so funny that if you're in Buffalo, you are somewhat of a weather person. You have to know, like lake effect is nothing I ever, I grew up in Chicago and I think they said lake effect all the time, never paid it any mind, but in Buffalo, it's a whole other animal. And so are injuries to quarterbacks who are potential future Hall of Famers, a Super Bowl favorites like Josh Allen. What is Maddie, the status of the elbow and how much does it seem to be affecting Josh's play? Yeah, we heard from Sean McDermott on Monday after the game and he said that Josh came out of the game in a good spot. And so they're gonna take it day by day, which is what Sean said pretty much all week last week, except on Friday, he ruled him hour to hour. And we heard from Ken Dorsey, our offensive coordinator too after the game. And he said, it was unbelievable what Josh Allen did to get ready for the game. And we heard him on Kyle Brandt's podcast as well this week and he said that the amount of time he spent in the training room and with our trainers was just extensive, the hours that they put in, the things that they had to do to make sure he was ready for the game. He said on Monday last week, he heard that it probably wasn't likely that he was gonna be able to play in the game, but since he did all of that work in the training room and put all those hours in, he was able to play in the game on Sunday, which I think we were all pretty shocked at as well, just with how practice went that week, we saw a lot of Case Keenum. We didn't see a lot of Josh Allen at all. So I think it's incredible and goes to show you just the type of quarterback and the type of character that he has and what he's willing to do for his team. He loves those guys so much. So I'm not surprised at the end of the day that he made it work and he made it happen. Unfortunately, it was a loss for the Bills, but they've played in so many crazy games over the last couple of years. I'm like, y'all need to stop, like please. But then you're sweating, which keeps you warm in all the snow, which is great. And it keeps your heart moving. I'll say, I don't wanna get into the red zone interceptions. He's not a hundred percent, that's obvious. My, I had an issue or like, I had like a, what are we doing moment when Devin Singletary's out there, Maddie, and he looks so great. And then they sort of abandoned the run and it's not the first time. So this team was loaded with talent, even with or without Josh Allen. Do they need to make more of a commitment to running the ball? I think they know they want to be a balanced team. We've heard from Ken Dorsey in the past couple of weeks and he said, my favorite aspect of this offense is when we're spreading the ball out, we're spreading the wealth. And I think that's when you've seen the offense is the most successful. We have so many weapons on this team from wide receivers to tight ends to running backs. Nyheim Hines got added to this roster as well. I think we're looking forward to seeing what he can bring to the table and what he can bring to this team once he gets more comfortable in the offense. But yeah, Sean McDermott also said on Monday, hey, it's getting colder here in Buffalo.  That's just something that's gonna have to happen. And the bills rank number 10 in terms of their rushing offense, but Josh Allen is averaging a big part of that number of the rushing offense. So I think they know that they need to do that. They want to do that. It was great to see Devin Singletary get two rushing touchdowns in the first half against the Vikings. And hopefully we see a lot more of that against the Browns in a game that could be a weather game and a game that you need to run the ball. The Browns are coming in with Nick Chubb. The bills have got to match that in some type of way. I don't wanna bring up Nick Chubb, but since you did, Maddie, I'm a little worried. This should be a win for Buffalo, of course. It's another game at home. They're there, they're turf, they're snow. But the truth is, I mean, Chubb's got like 900 rushing yards more than that, I think he's the NFL's third leading rusher. How can, you know, the run defense for the bills has been under question a little bit, some injuries there. How did they slow down this rushing attack with Chubb? So last week against the Vikings, I think they did a better job of that because off of their bye week against the Jets and then against the Packers, they were really struggling against stopping the run. And you saw these teams who were trying to play catch up in the second half, they started to run the ball instead of throw the ball, which was new for the defense to experience something like that, you know, run the clock, hold the ball, instead of pass it and try and air it out, which is what this defense has seen a lot of when teams are trying to play catch up. But against the Vikings, they held the Vikings to just 23 rushing yards in the first half. They have Dowling Cook on the Vikings. So they were doing a good job of that, although Dowling Cook broke off an 81 yard rushing touchdown. So that kind of muddies the water when you're looking at the number of rushing yards that the Vikings had against the bills. So I think there were some good things to come out of that game. They just can't let an explosive play happen. And with Nick Chubb, you never know when something like that is gonna happen. So we always hear our defensive coordinator say, you have to be gap sound. And that's exactly what they have to do. Greg Russo was ruled week to week. We're gonna see and hear from Sean McDermott today at 12 o'clock. So it'll be interesting to see if he maybe is day to day now after missing one game, he would be a huge help to the defense and the defense of line. If we're able to get him back this week, so many injuries on the defense, I think that's had a lot to do with it as well. But a lot of time left. You gotta get a division win here soon, but it's the Browns at the Bills. Early window on Sunday on CBS Maddie Lab, covering the Bills. Enjoy the snow. I wanna see some snow angel selfies, follow Maddie on social media. And hopefully she's dressing up in layers upon layers, four to six feet expected. Now it might be the Buffalo Bills representing the AFC and the Super Bowl, taking on the Vikings in the NFC. It's fun to be a Minnesota and there. I bet you, let's check in right now with Ben Guessling. I bet you're like, listen, we got our own snow. We got our own problems up here in Minnesota, right? Four to six feet would be unusual for us. What we typically get is you get a few hits, it just doesn't leave for five months. But yeah, four to six feet, good luck to Buffalo if that's what it is. Cause that's a different world than what we typically get around here. Well, you guys just got back from Buffalo where you got your thing that everyone's saying y'all needed. The Vikings need that signature win and it happened in brilliant fashion in the game of the year. So it's so much fun for you right now. But now I'm looking, I know what the team is thinking. They're not even thinking about it anymore. They got the Cowboys on the docket. So what do these Vikings need to do to avoid a letdown after that win? Well, I think a lot of this is gonna be some of the same questions you had going into Buffalo is how do you deal with that pass rush with what Dallas throws at you. This offensive line did an awfully good job last week against that Bill's pass rush that everybody said was gonna be a big problem for them. Kirk Cousins got hit a number of times, but when he needed to make that throw to Justin Jefferson at the end of the game, he did it from a clean pocket. I think if you're able to do that again and get the running game going the way they did in the second half with Dalton Cook, you can have success against this Cowboys defense. This has been a team the last couple of weeks that has given up a lot of yards on the ground. We saw the Packers do it a week ago. I would look for the Vikings to try to do some of those same things, knowing that everybody's been trying to take Justin Jefferson away. But the other piece of it is we've seen teams try to stop Justin Jefferson and he's kind of showing that you can do whatever you want. But when Kirk Cousins trusts me and puts it up, there's not a lot you can do to completely take me out of the game. Has Justin Jefferson changed since last year? Has he evolved at all as a player on or off? You know, I think the way they've changed it is just that they're giving him more opportunities. You have seen him kind of have his chances in this offense in the past, but now they're getting to the point. I think he's had these conversations with Kirk Cousins of, hey, just trust me. And you've seen it the last couple of weeks especially where it's tight coverage and Cousins is saying, I'm still gonna give you a chance and no greater example of that than the fourth and 18 at the end of the game where they have to have it. He goes up and makes the catch of his life to basically save that game. I think that's where you've seen a lot of the evolution just in the way that they're using him. He has been, I think, more vocal. He's been a guy that is starting to understand that the spotlight is on me. Defenses are trying to take me away. He's gotten probably better at being patient with that, had a couple of conversations to that extent with Kevin O'Connell early in the season to stay patient when teams are rolling coverage toward him. But really, it's just been them giving him chances and him showing time and again that that's a good idea. Then it's crazy that you're saying that because this is a kid who had 1,600 yards last year. So to say the difference is that they're giving him more opportunities is terrifying, but I don't think you're wrong. And I think trust is an interesting word. There's also, there must be some sort of unselfishness when it comes to that offense and a complete facelift here with the entrance of Kevin O'Connell. Is he the difference maker? Is he getting enough credit? Because he's getting quite a bit here, but what has he brought? Well, there has been a complete change in terms of how this team operates on a daily basis. I think you've seen it in a number of ways. You see, number one, I think the relationship with Kirk Cousins is a lot different. Cousins has more control on the offense. I think he feels like he has a coach that's behind him probably in a way that he might not have felt with Mike Zimmer. I think there's an openness to his input on the offense. There's more for him to do with the line of scrimmage. All of those things I think have contributed to him making some of the plays that you saw him make where he's not as worried about if I make a mistake, what are the consequences gonna be? It's put it up, trust it, give my guys a chance a lot more often. I think that's been a change and just the overall culture around here is quite a bit different. It's a looser team. We see Cousins on the plane with everybody's chains on and his shirt off. I mean, that's not something you would have seen very much in the past. I think this is a looser team. It's a more confident team. We'll probably see it at some point here if they take a couple losses in a row. I don't think you'll see anybody panic. And a lot of that is a reflection of Kevin O'Connell, but he's kind of gone about it. Quickly, Kirk Cousins, Patrick Peterson, they both wore the chains. Who's next? Who's wearing them after this Cowboys game? Well, we'll have to see what they do at home. They're home for five of the next six. So the plane rides home won't happen for a little bit. I don't know what it'll be at home if this keeps up, but I would think that Justin Jefferson probably has to get in that mix at some point down with Kirk and two guys. No doubt.  They've been contributing to Kirk Cousins, the donation of chains for Kirk Cousins, but Kirk's probably gonna get his own at some point here. I think we'll see that before the end of the season too. Oh God. You know what? I'm glad they're home. I could take a break. I need a bi-week from the chains and the plane rides all around. Ben Guessling, I think you, I think when you just start doing it with media members, to be honest, you all have had the real hard time in the past five or 10 years. Dealing with this team and the heartbreak. So I think Ben, you, from the Star of Tribune, should be wearing those chains and I'm rooting for the squad to bring home the glory for the Vikings in the NFC. And it's nice to see somebody else rule the NFC North for a change. Finally, we appreciate you. Ben, let's head to the jungle. My favorite place, the heart of the NFL, bringing in one of my favorite team reporters for the Cincinnati Bengals. Marissa Contipelli, how are you? I am doing great, Kay. It's so exciting to join you. And also not a coincidence that I'm on the show this week when the white bangles were turning, right? Woo! I'm stoked. And that is right, people. In case you didn't know, dun-dun-dun, white helmet time is back again. We're so excited about it. And everyone's well rested. Everybody's doing like self-assessments on the squad. I know that they know the standard they want to be at and they're turning this thing into good and having that perfect bi-week going into week 11 now. Jamar Chase, I want to get here. How has his absence sort of impacted Joe Burrow and this offense and where are we at with the receivers? Right, I mean, anytime you have a guy like Jamar Chase who's not on the field, it's going to have a huge impact no matter how good that offense is. But what it's kind of opened up opportunities for the Bengals to do and what we saw in week nine against Carolina is get the run game going, something they had not been able to do for the first eight weeks of the season, a little mind blowing that it took until week nine for Joe Nixon to have a 100-yard rushing game. But it's also getting some more guys involved in that passing game. I mean, it's why they brought in a tight end. Like Hayden Hearst, who can be such a threat in the receiving game for this team. Joe Burrow, his numbers haven't quite been up to what he is typically with Jamar Chase. You're looking at just his passing yardage alone, but it's allowing the Bengals to be a more balanced offense. And you can't sleep on a guy like Tyler Boyd. I know everyone thinks of Jamar Chase as the Bengals' deep thought receiver, which he absolutely is. I mean, six touchdowns of 50 or more yards since the start of last season. That's tops in the NFL. But the number two guy on that list, Tyler Boyd with four. So just because you don't have that right in Jamar Chase, you still got a guy in Tyler Boyd for Joe Burrow to air it out to. And of course, you mentioned the balanced offense, Joe Nixon, a historic game, over 200 scrimmage yards, five touchdowns, that's in week nine. And we all want that to carry over and bring success for this offense moving forward. This week, it's round two against the Steelers. Now, when was that? That was week one, I think, that overtime loss. Yeah, am I right? What has changed, you think? Yeah, what do you think is the biggest change from then to now when it comes to trying to avoid being beaten again? Well, I think the biggest change is just the play of Joe Burrow. I mean, you have to remember that was his first game back after the appendectomy and after his procedure. So he didn't really get the training camp that everyone else did. And I just think Burrow has looked so much more comfortable since that week. Honestly, since even week two, you take those first two weeks out of the equation, it's Joe Burrow that we had seen all of last season. And so you're not gonna get another game where Burrow throws four interceptions and the Bengals turn the ball over as often as they did against the Steelers in that game. So that's the first and foremost. And then secondly, just the play of the Spangles defense has been so consistent all season long, taking out the one day night game against Cleveland because that kind of seems like an outlier. We need to look at what the Spangles defense has been able to do all season long. And Kay, they could be getting a huge lift back in that in DJ Reader. He was activated off of IR as we go through the window for him. So if he can go on Sunday, that will be monumental because a lot of teams have been able to really get the run game going against the Spangles defense. And when Reader is up there up on the line, he just brings such a force, especially against just what teams are trying to do on the ground. Oh, I'm so excited, that's huge news. He's one of my favorites. I just love talking to DJ Reader. He's one of my guys. I don't know what the question is I want to ask you about how this team is handling this year. Because it seems, I was just talking about the Rams. The Rams look awful and they're not getting any, and they won the Super Bowl and I feel like they don't get grief. And the Bangles, there were never really expectations for the Bangles. And now this year, they're getting criticized at every little thing that happens, right? So how is, you know, I know Joe setting the tone there. How are they handling the adversity?  Marisa, tell me if this team feels that same level of magic and special, and if they can get there again. Yeah, that's a great question, Kay.  Oh my gosh, they started going to, you know, they haven't won an AFC North game yet, but you know, just take a deep breath. Like everything is fine. And they're exactly the same point that they were last year at five and four coming out of the buy. And I know you can't compare, you know, last season to the season, it's a different team, you know, just different in general in the NFL. But, you know, the way this team went about the second half of last season, the way that they made the playoff run, you know, just only setting them up for the future. I mean, a lot of those guys hadn't made a run like that before. Not only who had been some veterans with this team, but a lot of the youngsters too. And so they know what it takes and that they're going to have to kind of, you know, run the table in the second half, like they did a season ago. And just talking with the guys, they know that they control their own destiny here, that they're going to have to go out there, win some AFC North games first and foremost to try to, you know, go out and win this division. But it's just, these guys are confident. The magic is still there. I've not been around a closer locker room than I have these last two years, which is, these guys are truly friends. They enjoy each other's company. You know, they stay later in the building.  You don't see that everywhere. And even when I talked to some of the veterans, talked to Michael Thomas, our safety, who's been around the league for 11 years. He's told me so many times that this is the closest locker room he's been in since his rookie season, when he was with the 49ers. Also a team that went to the Super Bowl. So he, it's just, it's something magical. I love that word magical, especially as we're getting around the holiday season because that is what this team is and it's what's the actailers built here in Cincinnati. Don't get swept by this, swept by the Steelers, Marissa. Do not, it's on my Christmas wish list. Do not get swept by those Steelers in 2022. No, I don't want to have it happen, he does take it. Not on those white helmets, baby. The team reporter for the Cincinnati Bengals, the person whose job I want most in sports media, Marissa Contebelli, bringing back the all whites this weekend for a divisional matchup. We'll be back to paint the playoff picture that's right on Bob Rossing it next. I don't know, are we gonna be the show that keeps showing weather? Cause I'm not into that. Was that a decision made in a group meeting here on Up and Atoms? Don't love the weather, Twitter, tweet, talk. But here it is, Thursday night football, one night away. You gotta love Snow Lambo, sure. Now it's week 11, so we are officially halfway to the Super Bowl in Arizona, Super Bowl 57, the playoff picture. You know, it's starting to take shape, so it's important to get it right and follow along so it's a lot of fun. But it's not always super easy, especially with the schedule changing and ties and all that. So we bring in Matt Hamilton because we were on Good Morning Football together for six years. I literally never learned about the playoff picture. I was a total brat and just was like, Hammer, what is this? What does it mean? What happens here? And because I've never learned it, that's why we're gonna talk about it. I mean, it's true. It's definitely true. Yeah, remember the roadmaps I used to have to make before every show? Like every Monday I had to have like how every scenario was impacted. It was fun, fun times. It was not fun. And then it's, but you're amazing and that's why you're here. So I wanna start with those Packers, right? That's where we're gonna start. And they're sitting at four and six. So they are, tell me if I'm wrong, a game and a half back of the Niners for the final wildcard spot in the NFC. What's going on there? First of all, these graphics are really cool. Woo! They're so cool. But second of all, I'm kind of getting back on board if they can stick with the plan that they showed on Sunday and just keep running the ball. They had over 200 yards out of Jones and Dillon. They've ran twice as many times as they threw. And you saw how it got a more efficient version of Aaron Rodgers. I was really excited to see them start figuring it out. They do have the seventh most efficient run game in the league right now. They're averaging almost five yards a carry. And I'm gonna dip into some of the tape. Yeah, I'm gonna dip into some of the tape on that tomorrow when we previewed the Thursday night game and show it's not just that they're running the ball. I love the scheme and the things they're throwing at defenses to keep them off balance too. But they have a big hole to climb out of but I think they can do it if they stick to this plan now. Five yards per carry. I don't know, maybe run the ball even more. They do have an efficient. And hopefully that's what we see on Thursday night. But I have one for you now that we have to talk about because I know you have the Bengals going to the playoffs. I know they're going to rally but that means there's fewer spots and another team you really like, the Chargers. They're at five and four. They're losing that three way tie break right now with the Patriots. So they're currently out of a playoff spot. Do you think they end up getting in? Okay, I'm looking at this. It's a three way tie with the Pats and the Bengals. I'm all in still. Listen, they have played everybody really tough and they've not gone anywhere. They have not fallen despite all of the injuries. And I'm gonna say Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Joey Bosa, they're not done for the season. They're all coming back as you look at this playoff picture and then you got to look at the schedule as well. Remaining schedule, okay. So they only play three teams here with winning records the rest of the way.  Hot and healthy in Herbert, baby, the three Hs. That's all I need to see. And I need that kid to get his first playoff appearance. Am I right? I'm with you, but it's getting tough because for the Bengals and Chargers to both make it that means that two out of three, the Bills, the Patriots, or the Jets are falling out of those wildcard spots. So I hear what you're saying, but okay. So you have the Jets and Patriots falling out? So you- Yeah, I do. Okay, I can- Wanna know why? Because Bill Belichick, Bill Belichick is the Marvin Lewis of coaches and he's no good. Okay. We can't go down there, sir. I would hold Marvin Lewis. Hammer, why do you always wanna talk about the Colts? I always wanna talk about the Colts. I feel like we always end up talking about the Colts. I think so. Well, listen, here's the deal. They're a game back of New England in the win column for the last wildcard spot right now. What do you got? I mean, it was great to see Jeff Saturday get his first win. Congratulations to him, but I don't know. Everybody's acting like this solved all their problems and they got to figure it out.  And like, they beat the only team that like has looked more dysfunctional than them so far this season. So I can't get fully on board yet. I need to see them do it again. They have Philly this week. That's gonna be a huge test for them.  We just talked about it with all those good teams in that AFC playoff picture right now that are in much better shape than they are. I just, I'm not convinced yet. I mean, Matt Ryan gives them a better chance, but I'm not convinced yet that they have what it takes to really run through what's a tough schedule right now. I mean, look at that Philly, Minnesota and Dallas on there. The Chargers will be a huge game. The Giants are in there. This is not easy. And I think they're in a little too much of a hole right now. You weren't sold on the Matt Ryan scramble. That's like Conrad company's date running away from him because of his haircut tomorrow night.  That was impressive. That was. And I think they're a better team with him starting. Absolutely. But I just, I don't know if they have enough right now. The run game did look better. That's going to be key. But with that schedule and the hole that they put themselves in by taking Ryan out, it's going to be tough. I was going to make a Westchester mall joke, but I didn't do it, Matt Hamilton. All right. There it is, your playoff picture. You ready? Oh, we can go there. I'm ready. Can we? Matt, no, no, no, no. Bring Matt Hamilton back. Matt Hamilton yesterday tries helping some bystanders in a mall parking lot jump their car. Sucker born every minute next thing you know. What happened? Nothing to me, thankfully, but the cops come rushing out. One of the young ladies had allegedly shoplifted something from a certain department store and she was up against the wall getting copped. I'm standing there with the jumper cables. It was a great time and yeah, yep. And I call you and I say that's what you get for being nice.  Help me with anything. You're too nice. And I tell you that all the time. Hamilton breaking down the playoff picture like only he and Bob Ross could paint it. We'll be back right here on Up an Adam Show to hit the light. Up an Adam Show and it's time to hit the lights from New York where we spotlight awesome performances that deserve some love. This week it is Green Bay Packers wide receiver Christian Watt and so fun to watch this go down. The mannerisms, the demonstrativeness. I loved it. If not even just because he had a game, it was the way he was able to rewrite his narrative throughout four quarters. And he had a couple, you know, if you didn't watch the game, you wouldn't have known this, but they showed him up so frickin' much on the broadcast. Yes, he had some drops to start the season, but then he emerged and had this beautiful 58 yard touchdown. Yes, it's gorgeous. It deserves love. He did it. He finally did it. Aaron Rogers is fist pumped, but he's so happy. He gets the Packers on the board in the second quarter. And yeah, I thought it'd be a backflip. I didn't see that coming. And you know, that's the first score. And then here's what he had to say. Rather his quarterback had to say about his young rookie wide receiver channeling Mike Evans out there. I think that catch probably, probably on the atomic level, shifted a lot of different things for him exercising some energetic demons.  And he did fourth quarter grab another touchdown, just running, getting excited, Lambeau, are you gonna Lambeau leap? Yes, you are. Ricky, Christian Wilson touchdown. He keeps hopes alive. And then a third one, by the way, to tie it up. There's just two minutes to go just over that. Look, I love that. So do your thing, buddy. Keep those pesky energetic demons off your back and keep this going. And maybe the Packers have enough juice to get back into the playoff picture. Either way, very pumped for him, Sunday, just the beginning of what's going to be a beautiful career for one, Christian Watson. It's very also cool to see, I thought, context-wise with C.D. Lambeau on the other side. I think a lot of Packers fans were like, man, we need one of those. We had one of those. We shipped him to Las Vegas. We need one. And then that one, that number nine, stepped up. All right, we've got more to get to here on the Up and Atom show. Tweet me, I'm looking during the break. No, like right now, tweet me. Like right now. My Monday night football boost drama did not hit what else is new. I'm cursed. Maybe I need that atomic energy shift that Aaron Rodgers is talking about Christian Watson has. It'll happen someday, not today. So as an apology, I'd like to try to find deals to help. Oh, Jesus Christ. Kay, you have experience with toxic relationships. I've experienced with energetic demons that I've had to deal with over these years. So we're gonna light some sage. You almost got shanked by a couple of teenagers stealing from Claire's boutique.  Okay, hold on. I'm just trying to put some good energy out there for you here. Well, you do that.  Here we go. Thanksgiving's next week. Maybe we're hosting the entire family again. Then it hits you.  We'll look no further than Bed Beth and Beyond where you can find a set of two. Not one, but two gravy boats for 50% off. That's just $1250, $10 if you become a rewards member. How about this? Whether it's a holiday or not, maybe you're the type who likes to stay in and enjoy the peace and solitude of your own home. Like me, regardless, you need to eat people. And boy, do I have the main course for you. Swing by CVS and pick up a 16 ounce premium ham. One pounder for just $479. That's at CVS. And adapt Dak Prescott's personal brand. And winter is right around the corner. No, maybe you're a little worried about turning up the heat in the house. The thermostat, ultra flush hood, a blanket robe. Take it out. Huggle.


of criminal law. People often want to see into the future and today that's what we're going to do. We're going to look at what's going to happen. What is the future? Some people say that technology is the future, but we all know that the real future is globalization. And what globalization is going to bring us is international computer crime laws, not global at first, but eventually that's what we're moving towards. And what I want to look at is the first major, probably to be successful initiative to have an international computer crime law. Why do we need international computer crime laws? Because the internet is an international system because computer crime and crime of all sorts now can cross boundaries. In the old days I had to go into the library with the candlestick if I was going to kill Colonel Mustard. I had to actually physically be there and while being there I could leave behind all sorts of evidence from fingerprints to hair samples, eyewitnesses who may have seen me enter the room all the way to today leaving behind DNA. Now I can be the criminal in one country, I can attack a victim in another country and the evidence can be strewn in any number of countries in between. And police hate that. But there is some major obstacles towards developing a uniform theory of what computer crime should be. And what are those obstacles? First of all, between, there's a lot of areas of agreement which in most of the European nations and in the United States, we have a consensus as to what should be illegal. And some of those areas of obvious agreement where there's not a lot of problem for people to say yes I agree that should be illegal are, for example, with child pornography, the destruction of data, data theft. These are offenses which we can tend to agree ought to be made illegal. But there are great areas of disagreement. One of the major areas of disagreement is substantive. What is or what should be a crime? And countries don't necessarily agree on this even in some basic ways. For example, in the United States unauthorized access, simple trespass to a computer without permission is a crime. Other countries may not have a crime, may not have a statute that prohibits that at all, or when they do have a statute that prohibits it, they may have some added additional things that go with it. They don't think that simple trespass is a crime. For example, in Germany, their unauthorized access computer crime law requires that the person have circumvented some kind of security measure in order for that trespass to then be unauthorized. So if you just happen upon the password file in a web server in the United States, you could be convicted of unauthorized access because you exceeded your authorization when you went to look at this password file. In Germany, that wouldn't be the case. The people just left their password file on the web server without any kind of security protection or means of authenticating permissible viewers, so it wouldn't be a crime under that statute. So even with something as simple as unauthorized access, we can have great disagreement. Another problem is the relative competence or incompetence of local law enforcement officials. Here in the United States, we've had a lot of effort to try to train our FBI agents to be up to snuff in the techniques necessary to do a good forensic analysis of computer crime data. In other countries, they do not have the resources necessarily or, screen favor. They don't have the resources necessarily or the information or the expertise for them to investigate computer crimes in such a way as to necessarily find the proper perpetrator or to do it in a way in which it could be used in a court, for example, in the United States where you're going to have defense attorneys to challenge that evidence. There may be somebody who commits an offense in another country and the United States is interested in locating and prosecuting that person, but local law enforcement authorities here may have little or no power to go to another country where the perpetrator may be located or where the evidence may be located to investigate. So there's no agreement on what powers one nation has to interrogate, search, seize evidence in another nation and nations differ from country to country as to what kind of privacy protections they have for their internet users and thus what kind of evidence they can permissively collect from an ISP and the question is then can they simply seize evidence from the ISP? Can they simply do they just have to request it? Do they need a court order or perhaps a warrant or do they need nothing? Or is there no way for them to obtain that information? Is it over, is it so protected you can't, a law enforcement person can't get it at all? There's the territorial problem with the lack of cooperation between a local law enforcement agency or one nation's law enforcement agency and the law enforcement agency of another nation. We've all seen those movies where the FBI comes in and the local police are mad because they're on their territory. Well that sort of internacing rivalry is that many more times worse when we're not even talking about officials in the same country. And finally, if we do manage to discover who is the perpetrator of an offense and where they are located, there are disagreements over whether we have the authority, one nation has the authority to bring that person to that country for trial and whether the home nation is going to extradite that person. So all of these elements make at this point in time international computer crime difficult to deal with. Let's look at some examples. Who's familiar with the I love you virus case? Okay, so I won't go into it in too much detail. A gentleman in the Philippines decided it wasn't fair that no one in the Philippines could afford internet access. He thought a good way for people to get internet access would be to use the accounts of other people to have their password. So he wrote as part of his school paper virus that would go out through the internet and it would collect passwords. This I love you virus and it was an email that was titled I love you and of course everybody always hopes that somebody loves them. So when they would get an email from your friend that said I love you, you would click on it, open it up and what it would do is it would go through all your email addresses if you happen to use Microsoft Outlook and send itself to all of those people a note from you saying that you loved them. And there were great complications for corporate networks as they tried to clean this bug out of their system. But essentially what it was supposed to do is harvest these passwords and send them home. Eventually the United States authorities with the cooperation of the Philippines was able to trace this virus back to a small apartment in Manila where this gentleman lived with his girlfriend or with his sister and her boyfriend I believe. And eventually, first they thought it was the boyfriend but when this guy's school told the authorities that actually he'd written his graduate thesis paper on exactly this topic they realized that it was him. So corporations here in the United States were claiming millions of dollars of loss for all the time and effort that they had had to take to clean this virus out of their system because everybody was getting way too many emails. And they were eager to prosecute this sort of latter day Robin Hood here in the United States or the Philippines just along with something happened to him. But it turned out that the Philippines does not have or rather did not have a law against writing and sending viruses. So there was nothing to prosecute him for and this gentleman was set free much to the consternation of local authorities here in the United States. Of course, cases, bad cases always make bad law and Philippines ran out to quickly pass a antivirus law which in the long run is a good thing. But at the time since there was no law it couldn't be applied to him prospectively and this gentleman there's no legal recourse. There's no legal punishment that can to fall him. And that was extremely aggravating to the United States. But not as aggravating in some ways as the case involving the Russians. Because at least in the I love you virus case the Philippines was cooperative. In the case involving these two Russians the let me just add that because it was not a crime in the Philippines with the gentleman who wrote the I love you virus he could not then be extradited to the United States for trial here even though it is a crime here in the United States. So nothing could be done. And with the Russians they these were two Russian guys who had stolen a bunch of credit card information done some other stuff but basically stolen a bunch of credit card information from companies like PayPal which is a online payment provider and the FBI with some assistance was eventually able after a year or so of investigation to trace these thefts back to Russia. They called the Russian authorities and asked them for assistance and the Russians simply did not return their telephone calls. They could not get the Russians to be interested in arresting these two guys. Not only couldn't they get them interested in arresting the two guys or interrogating the two guys they couldn't get them to even collect any evidence over there from these two guys. Their requests for assistance were totally ignored and the United States has no power to obtain a search warrant for a computer server that's located in Russia. Without that information they couldn't charge them here and of course without the cooperation of the Russian authorities they couldn't extradite them here to the United States. So the FBI came up with a great social engineering hack. They didn't have Russian cooperation. They didn't have any evidence and they didn't have great technological expertise but what they did do was they set up a fake company in Seattle and they called these Russian guys up and they said hey we've got this computer security company and we think you guys are really good. We might want to hire you. Why don't you guys fly here to Seattle for an interview. So these that's right. So these two guys know times are tough. The economy is bad. So these two guys flew from Russia to the to Seattle to go to this company Invita it was appropriately called and while they were there they went through the sort of interviewing process and the FBI agents posing as human resources personnel said well you know show us what you can do hack into our network. So the Russian guys sat down at the company computers and logged into their server in Russia to get their hacking tools that they had stored there. Unbeknownst to them the FBI had a sniffer running on that system and captured their username and password. After they entered that information into the computer the Russians were arrested and with that username and password the FBI logged on to the server in Russia collected that information brought it over here to the United States zipped it up then went and got a search warrant to open the file that they had downloaded from Russia after having obtained it. The defense attorney in that case did challenge that on fourth amendment grounds and the judge denied his motion but I'm sure that that it will be appealed. So with cases like that there's been an immense interest on the part of international law enforcement to to try to come to some kind of terms of cooperation some terms of agreement so that we don't have these problems that arise in the future. The Council of Europe's cyber crime treaty is the most developed in the most advanced of these efforts. Something of a gleam in the eye of the Hoover institution only four years ago it's now rapidly on its way towards ratification and we're going to talk in detail about the provisions of that treaty but I just want to mention that there has been a lot of international cooperation in many fields other than other than crime lately. The G8 which is the eight industrialized nations has also been very concerned with cyber crime and has developed a list of principles which have been incorporated into the Council of Europe treaty. We've also seen international treaties on copyright law and a new one that we're in the process of debating which is the Hague treaty which is about the enforcement of foreign judgments. Now you may remember as I said globalization is the future internationalism is the trend and we are looking at a vast effort to homogenize the law across nations most often in the way that the United States thinks the law ought to be. With law with conventions or treaties like the Byrne Convention or the WIPO treaty we're looking at exporting the United States view of what copyright law is to other nations and if you'll remember it is the WIPO treaty that brought us the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and I know that that was discussed here at this conference earlier so I won't belabor it but you know I think we're familiar with the problems that the DMCA poses for people doing research for reverse engineering for encryption research and and other important and valuable efforts of that nature. You know basically Mickey Mouse is getting his way and the rest of us are going to have to follow in step. The Hague treaty is even more dangerous in many ways. The Hague treaty is a treaty that's designed to enforce foreign judgments. Now most treaties and the Council of Europe cyber crime treaty I include in this want the signatories the countries that join the treaty to change or amend their laws to be in accordance with what the treaty says. The Hague treaty is a little bit different in that what it says is whatever your law may be we're going to respect that here in the other countries that are members of the treaty. So instead of saying here's what our basic standards are going to be for the law the Hague treaty says hey if you break the law in this country or that country and there's a judgment against you we're going to let that judgment be enforced here in the United States. So if you get sued for defamation or liable or something like that in the United Kingdom which does not have the same free speech protections we have here and there's a judgment against you here in the United States we're going to allow that judgment to be enforced. So this is not about the Hague treaty perhaps it should be and we can talk more about that later but the Hague treaty raises a lot of problems and those problems basically the problems of difference is in values differences in procedure differences in protections for privacy free speech and important rights of that nature are those are problems we're going to see here with cybercrime and also that are very much issues with the Hague treaty. I have a question there. The question was whether the Hague treaty prevents our government from prosecuting us for foreign laws and while the Hague treaty does not prevent that here in the United States you can be prosecuted under United States laws. Our government has to enforce our laws. So the Hague treaty will not give our government new power to to prosecute for other laws but what it will do is it will say that our government has to enforce judgments in other countries under their laws. So as I said if you were if there was if you were sued in the United Kingdom for insulting McDonald's and the McDonald's won a judgment against you there then the United States government would be a party or a accomplice to enforcing that judgment against you here even though under United States law your comments about McDonald's would have been protected under the First Amendment and not something for which you could have been sued civilly. Okay the gentleman with the white hat the he's asking who it applies to and that's a good question because obviously if it applies to we certainly don't want judgments from some countries whose laws are extremely different from ours to be enforced here for example if you were violated that ankle showing law in Afghanistan and now I'm going to get caned we certainly wouldn't want that judgment to be enforced against me here in the United States it'd be something of a spectacle but it's for nations that signed the Hague Treaty or any of these treaties and right now as with the as with the cyber crime treaty we're basically looking at the western Europe nations with cyber crime treaty it's the western European nations plus the I forget what they call them right now but sort of the friendly observer nations United States Canada Japan and maybe one other that we're looking at it as inviting to be to be members of this treaty yes you okay so this is a basic jurisdiction question and the answer to that is if you do something from United States soil you are subject to United States law even if it affects someone outside the country if you do something from outside the country that affects someone on United States soil then again you're probably subject to United States law now whether you can get here or not whether the will you'll we'll get you here or not as part of that whole extradition treaty question but so the answer is so the answer is well I'm not a specialist in in British law I think the answer is the same if the server is in the United Kingdom and people can read it in a use net group there even though you're located here theoretically you could be subject to United Kingdom law however this is part of the whole problem or part of the whole good thing about the Internet which is that what are they going to do I mean who's going to prosecute you for something you've done over there but also how can they stop you for example when Yahoo had people selling Nazi memorabilia across their network they're subject to laws in Germany and France and you know other nations that prohibit the selling of that kind of material but so what are they going to do they take that stuff off of Yahoo.fr but you can still get that on Yahoo.com and a person in France can easily access Yahoo.com so that is one of the one of the issues with the Internet you know are we going to have a basic dumbing down where all we see on the Internet is what's is what's palatable to every nation the lowest common denominator or are we going to see a higher level of discourse on the Internet where you know what's appropriate you know where we don't have that kind of those kinds of restrictions yes okay so this is a this is a question about where the account is located and what I'm going to what I'm going to say is this there are innumerable what ifs in this area of the law and the law is not certain about any of these things what I just said about jurisdiction is the general principle but some of these questions you know I'm not you we can't really answer because we don't know these things haven't happened there's no agreement on it and what I really want to I will take your question and then yours but then I want to move on so that I can talk about what the Council of Europe is trying to do to address these problems because the way the law is right now is not necessarily the way the law is going to be in the future and I'm happy to take tons of what ifs after but right now I sort of want to begin to move on through exactly what the law is I mean there's the jurisdictional problem is huge and that's why countries want to enter into these multilateral treaties to try to resolve exactly the kind of problems that this person just raised yes and it's a question whether there's like any country that has separate laws for foreigners than for their own nationals and I don't know the answer to that and the question was isn't the Hague Treaty as I described it something that allows international law to override our our domestic protections for free speech and rights of that nature and the answer to that is yes and that's one of the reasons why people are so concerned about the Hague Treaty and Richards well the treaty is not the Hague Treaty is in its early stages and one of the reasons why I mentioned is because you'll see as we go through the provisions of the cybercrime treaty that there have been a lot of lobbying efforts on there has been a lot of lobbying efforts on the part of computer security professionals encryption researchers and people of that nature to try to change the European cybercrime treaty and make it more palatable and the same thing needs to be done to the Hague Treaty the Hague Treaty either needs to be amended from where it stands now or it needs to be killed Richard Stallman wrote a great rant about why the Hague Treaty is bad and I recommend that people take a look at that and think about you know what we can do in order to either ameliorate the downsides of these international laws or kill them all together let's take a look at how that happened in the process of negotiating and arguing about the European cybercrime treaty okay the treaty is currently in its final draft form you can look at what the treaty says at that URL that I have that I have up there and the treaty is as I said earlier one of these types of documents that requires the member nations the signatories to amend there or to pass local laws that will meet make them in concurrence or in agreement with all the other signatory nations they have to pass new laws that will agree with the provisions of the treaty and the treaty has three basic areas in which agreement is in which we we agree to agree one is the substance that we need to have a substantive consensus we agree on what is a crime we amend our laws to make sure that everything that's in the treaty that would they say should be a crime is a crime in the United States and not just in the United States but in all the member nations of the Council of Europe second is a procedural consensus that we agree that there are processes whatever those processes may be for the retention of data and the collection of evidence and then the disclosure of that information to local law enforcement and finally the third thing is the international cooperation aspect if local law enforcement can collect the evidence then local law enforcement can turn it over to the law enforcement agents of other nations the nations where for example the crime may have had its worst effect you want to see the site oh I'm not sure if it's on Lexus actually so I don't really know what where that would be I don't I don't know where it would be on Lexus that I know that's where it is on the web sorry okay so here we have a little picture of our hero from the I love you virus case and he's representing everything that we're gonna now agree is going to be illegal first illegal access illegal access meaning access without right initially this law required every signatory nation to make illegal access simple trespass or exceeding authorized access illegal just as it is here in the United States with lobbying from other nations the illegal access provision now allows variations on that theme as per the law that already exists in Germany they now allow you to require either that there be some kind of damage first or that some security measure have been circumvented or something like that that was the result of lobbying and we have illegal interception of data wiretap or sniffing data interference stealing data or racing data altering data that sort of thing system interference denial of service misuse of devices this is very controversial and was formerly a provision called illegal devices which controls the development possession and use of hacker tools like scanners exploits password crackers anything that is primarily designed to do the first four illegal access interception data interference or system interference computer related forgery computer related fraud child pornography and those are basically things that we traditionally think of as criminal offenses Kim oh wait hold on to second Kim the question was about the misuse of devices provision and we're going to talk about that kind of in detail later and then if I don't answer your question please do ask it again who was the other person who wanted to oh okay so now we get into a new kind of crime maybe not here in the United States but for most of these places copyright this treaty would require the signatory nations to criminalize copyright in the United States up until not that long ago copyright offenses were generally treated as a civil matter now they're treated as a criminal matter and what this treaty would do is it would require other nations to also create copyright laws that are punished criminally now I know that most of you probably know this but the difference between a civil case and a criminal case is a civil case is where somebody sues you for money a criminal case is where the government pursues you to take away your liberty and you go to jail and the treaty the treaty specifically states that member nations must pass laws that make you go to jail for copyright infringement there's also provisions for aiding and abetting corporate liability and as I said these all are laws that the signatory nations not only must pass but also must punish with a potential sentence of imprisonment the gentleman in the back who changed his mind and wants to ask his question again the question is does this imply only to copyright infringement like a copying of songs on Napster or something of that nature does it also apply to purchasing or even producing counterfeit items like like fake Levi jeans or something of that nature and basically the answer is it would apply to all those kinds of things if they happened in the signatory nations anything that is a copyright infringement under the burn convention or the white boat treaty or any of a number of other international copyright treaties the question is what is illegal access mean and I ask myself that pretty much every day under the I'm not kidding pretty much eat at this point in time each country certainly has its own hacker laws and whether those laws prohibit illegal access or don't prohibit illegal access require you to circumvented some security measure or not they're there all over the map the idea behind this treaty is to make everybody agree within reason there have they have had to make some concessions because of lobbying and because of differences between countries but the basic idea is to get everybody in the Council of Europe plus some other big nations like the United States to all agree on the same definition essentially the same definitions of crimes yeah I can't really hear your question I'm sorry the question is what if United States intelligence organizations attack something in one of the treaty countries does that then become illegal and I asked myself that question when thinking about the Russians case I mean here we have FBI agents they sniffed the network okay it was their own network maybe that's okay maybe it's not but then they used a password which they knew was not their own to gain unauthorized access to a server located in Russia and to take data from that server and I thought to myself that sounds pretty much like a violation of United States law in the United States law there's a provision that says that law enforcement agents can do stuff like that if they have legal authority of course they didn't have a warrant or anything and we don't really know what the legal authority necessarily would look like there but you know it sounds to me like it's arguably a 18 USC 1030 violation of course we don't see the Department of Justice going after these FBI agents to prosecute them so my answer to you is that there will still be some variations between the laws of the member nations and we they we still have possibly provisions that say there's an exception for law enforcement or something of that nature and that even though that exception for law enforcement may or may not apply because it doesn't seem like they got legal authority law enforcement may still go ahead and do stuff like that and the answer is we don't know the answer because that's the beauty of the Internet it's still too young for us to really have everything nailed down so it's a good question and a complicated answer I'll take that gentleman in the back uh-huh okay did everybody hear that okay yes I mean it's it now it's all broken down so those are the I'm going to go without that then those are the substantive rules that need to be that that signatory nations need to agree on there's also procedural rules that the nations need to agree on and those procedural rules are basically about the collection of data and the preservation of data so that we can have evidence collection by local law enforcement at least which will lead us up to the third provision which is that once local law enforcement collects this data we're going to go and hand it over to foreign law enforcement agents so first there are procedural rules that require system administrators to preserve stored computer data computer data up to 90 days upon request and that that 90 day period can be extended if further requested system administrators must be able to must there must be laws that require system administrators to preserve traffic data and to disclose that data to law enforcement agents so I put a little picture of a computer server here because one of the great complaints that these provisions have had and one of the powerful lobbying efforts made against these provisions was by ISPs who said look we don't have the resources to store all this information for you all the time this is a great financial burden on us and we simply can't do it and the Council of Europe as a whole has generally disregarded that complaint on the part of the ISPs right not all data it is upon request and actually that's a very that's a very good question and something that we'll talk about a little while later these there have been some amendments to these provisions to make them a little more palatable in fact the treaty does say that it is upon request but countries can still require whatever legal process they need before this information is disclosed so if the United States still requires a court or a warrant to get certain information that's okay generally that's interpreted at the treaty is interpreted as not conflicting with already existing United States privacy protections however the treaty does not impose requirements on other signatory nations to have or to institute privacy protections at all before this type of information is turned over so if nations want to have privacy protections they still can but there's no encouragement or inducement for them to do so yes okay that's an excellent question an excellent follow-up to the point that the gentleman over here made and this was one of the major battles in this treaty the question of whether or not ISPs or other service providers could be forced to construct their technology in such a way as to allow for this type of recording of data and surveillance and there was great concern about this because in the United States we had passed a law that we call Kalea which many of you may be familiar with and Kalea basically was a law that required telecommunications providers to have technological capabilities within their systems that permitted law enforcement eavesdropping that facilitated law enforcement eavesdropping and when this treaty was being is was being negotiated people were very concerned that this provisions that these provisions about procedural data collecting were another kind of Kalea for the for the ISPs for the data for that have to do not with telecommunications but with data communications and through great efforts at lobbying the treaty has added a provision that says that this type of data collection has to be within the technological capabilities of the ISP that there's not a Kalea type provision in here that requires ISPs or remalers or that sort of thing to enable this type of evidence collection or surveillance many people feel that those provisions as they now stand in the treaty are not strong enough but there is that language in the treaty and the notes that explain what the Council of Europe was thinking when they were writing this thing which I also often ask myself say that they specifically do want to avoid this what what is called the Kalea problem so thanks for that question search and seizure is another issue yes well I the question is will ISPs be prohibited from informing customers when these requests are made and the answer is that yes there are provisions in this treaty that say that you there has to be a way to hide the fact of this investigation from from the customer now what the parameters of that of that provision are I'm not totally familiar with but I have a copy of the treaty with me and we can look it up so if you want to come up after and people who are interested in the in the nuances of that question we can look at we can look that up in the treaty and see if it's possible for us to decipher what in fact it might mean search and seizure is an issue and the main question with search and seizure was a problem with trans border searches are we going to let law enforcement agency from France or Britain or you know other countries come into the United States and search our computer servers here basically the way that that problem was resolved was to say no we're not going to allow that but what we are going to allow is we're going to enable local law enforcement to do searching and then we're going to have local law enforcement promise that they're going to cooperate one part of this search and seizure provision is that the law enforcement there should have to be laws passed which allow law enforcement to order a person with knowledge about the system or about the data protection measures to provide the ability to search seas or copy the data so we're going to talk about that a little bit but just think about that for a second I'm sorry is provide different from enable you should be a lawyer because that's a good question I mean we don't know basically what that provision has been interpreted as meaning is that it is a challenge or a danger or a threat to to encryption rights in countries that the person who's protected the day his data or her data with an encryption key would then have to be able to provide the ability to law enforcement to search that data meaning that they may have to turn over their key and that butts up directly against 5th amendment prevent 5th amendment protections here in the United States as well as creates a host of other of other problems so whether provide means enable I don't know but if you're asking me whether that means that encryption rights are threatened the answer is yes the question is does the treaty say that the authorities can go back to the person whose data it is and command to decipher it for them and that is what the treaty looks like it says that is what the treaty looks like it says and is a source of great of great concern the treaty allows data interception it can it requires signatory countries to pass laws that will force service providers to do real-time collection of traffic data and to cooperate with authorities when they do real-time collection of traffic data and as we talked about earlier because of the good question in the back that is within the service providers existing technical capacity so there's no Kalea problem they're not required to build snooping into their system but they do have to cooperate with with data intercepts just as the telecommunications companies do here when they're given a wiretap order and there are and the final the final essence of all of this is that once we once the signatory nations pass the laws that state what is a crime and we all agree on what's a crime and once the signatory countries pass laws that say here's data collection can happen and here's how data collection will happen then they all agree that once they that they will then exchange that data that's the essence of the treaty and how these international problems are to be overcome and these jurisdictional question that that's the cooperation problem and added to that is a definition of jurisdiction where a nation has jurisdiction is defined as on their territory on one of their ships on one of their aircraft and once we have this agreement that the nations have jurisdiction and that the we have agreements about all these crimes we can agree on extradition because usually we don't have extradition unless the offense is a crime in both nations now it's a crime in both nations so we agree that we extradite it requires both first that it's punishable by both parties but also that it be an offense that is punishable by more than one year and an offense that's punishable by more than one year is a felony by less than one year is a misdemeanor that's the that's the essential difference okay so consensus can be bad why because we don't have a laboratory approach where we can see a lot of variations in the ways that different computer crime laws can help or hurt computer security and we also are heading towards a situation where we have a substantive agreement on these laws without having any greater agreement on human rights on free speech on due process or on any of these things which could result not only in injustice in those other countries but it results in our law enforcement agents and our country and our tax dollars being spent to pursue or prosecute cases in other countries that would never be pursued or prosecuted here because of because of these rights article six is one of the more controversial of the provisions initially it regulated all hacker tools and it was interpreted as preventing the development of any hacker tools through great lobbying efforts it's been amended and it now says that there's no liability when the tool is designed for the authorized testing or protection of a computer system that wasn't enough for many people because you know who's to determine whether it's for authorized it's whether it's designed for authorized testing or designed for hacking hacking tool looks very much like a security tool in fact they're often the same tools so because of great pressure from countries from encryption experts and from researchers in different countries that provision is now one that you can opt out of however I think we can look I think the trend of the future is that we're going to have to be battling a lot of laws that prohibit hacker tools the Australian government has recently is considering now a law which would just ban all hacker tools without these exceptions for computer security research child pornography you wouldn't think it's controversial but it is this law will this treaty will export the United States definition of child pornography which includes not only actual child porn but virtual child porn pornography in which no children were harmed but which appears to be a visual depiction of a child at the very least this treaty requires that the virtual child porn be a picture in the United States that's not a requirement and I read in the New York Times two days ago that somebody was sentenced to prison for 10 years for a written depiction of child pornography we talked about all this so what's the bad news about the cyber crime treaty are there what the question is whether any lawyers involved in this process and I think that the answer is clearly that there were too many lawyers involved in this process the question is whether the child pornography law has implications far beyond that the limited ones that I said and before I answer that question I want to ask whether I have till 12 or 12 30 does anybody know okay well my answer to that then is yes it does I want to go back here oops oh now I messed it up gonna make the slides available yeah I will make them available on Defconn as you can see I mean with the child porn thing that little picture there is the picture from Lolita that's the picture from from Lolita which was you know it one of the classic it's a classic and also child porn so it's so child porn is it's a it's very controversial most people think oh you know it's a black and white issue but there are lots of complicated legal issues in it just like with movie endless love and that sort of thing what you raised okay so you saw the bad news and I will make that available but the question is what can I do and I don't want to leave you on the low point where you all feel like man that treaty really sucks we're in for we're in for something really bad so what can I do lobbying works okay I've raised many points and pointed out numerous times where lobbying by nations by researchers by encryption advocates has have resulted in modifications being made to the treaty that have made the treaty better so lobbying does work and it's not too late so I urge everybody who has interest in these issues and that does appear to be everybody in this room since you came here and you stayed for the entire hour on this early Saturday morning to get educated about these issues Sunday morning I see I'm the one with the problem and I've listed a couple of URLs here for organizations which have been heavily involved in trying to make the cybercrime treaty better and to to try to make sure that rights are protected that our rights and the rights of people in other nations are protected in the treaty so get out there and do some good thank you very much


Hi everyone, Joe for jaspyscasebreaks.com coming at you with 2018-19 Panini Donner's Optic Basketball five box blaster break number six From jaspyscasebreaks.com one spot gets you two teams. No vet commonships. Everyone knows this. There you go Big thanks to these folks for getting in Let's double you up All 30 teams are in let's roll it. Let's randomize each list three times two and a one one two and Three nice after three times. We've got Set young down to Chris and there's one two three right there three times for the teams one two and three After three times we've got Utah Jazz down to the Cleveland Cavaliers There's three right there. There's three right there three right there Here's how it all shakes out trades are allowed Remember this is 2018-19. So it's Lucodontia to Trey young addition So yeah with the jazz Chris with the pelicans Chris Chris G with the pelicans Chris Erickson with the bucks and clippers Chris with a C Kings and gris sat down with the Lakers not my Lakers It's a tight game between them and the trailblazers Chris G sixer sons heat and nicks Eric with the Mavs Chris with the magic Matthew with the Warriors Christopher with the Blazers Eric with the Rockets Chris with the Pistons Chris with the Bulls Raptors and okay see Chris Erickson with the Hawks Matthew with the Spurs Chris Erickson with the Hornets Chris G with the Wizards Chris Erickson with the Nuggets Chris G with the Indian Indians Indiana Pacers That is it's been a long week Chris Erickson with the Nets and the Celtics last spot mojo Chris G with the T Wolves and Chris G with the Cavs Let's get all that on one page. Let's sort by column B by team Let's take a look here. So we've got Eric with the Mavs and Chris Erickson with the Hawks We some other big names in here to the 1819 class turn out to be pretty solid So I'm gonna pause the video when we come back receive the J. Trades and then the break itself stick around All right, welcome back folks Not even a whisper of a trade So here's five box blaster random team number six 18 19 Donners optic basketball Thanks for spending a bit of your Saturday with us. We got Lakers down by 10 with a minute and a half left in the third quarter That's not good for my Lakers Damian Lunar has a Dislocated finger for Pete's sake. What's going on here? Damian Lula still has 22 points on the night. It's on his left hand. It's not gonna be a problem for him All right. Good luck. There's Steph Curry-Hollow Omnidialo So you set aside that Steph Curry-Hollow might Carry a little extra weight these days The way the hobby is going Michael Bridges played some good basketball at the restart Gary Harris, it's not numbered, but it still will ship because naturally there's a little bend to these cards Just FYI Javon Carter Winner stays and met to right here for the Spurs All right next box that ever get into comic books Tyler Brenner is asking. No, I did not I had friends who did I appreciate the the graphic novel I had some cousins that were into it too, but no I personally did not But I know that there's a lot of Nowadays just like just like sports cards. There's a lot of A lot of money in it on the secondary market You know if you if you go with if you have certain first editions and stuff graded you know they could Be a lot of money on the secondary market And the first appearance of a certain character That could be big. Uh-oh rated rookie trail blazer. I thought I thought almost I was gonna be Trey young for a second But still a hollow rated rookie Gary Trent jr. Is he playing tonight? I think he should be right. Yeah, he's got 18 minutes and a few points and an assist By at the end of the third CJ McCollum He's got a he's got a good podcast actually Kevin Knox rated rookie and there's a luka donchage right there just a base luka But that's that's the guy we're looking for That'll be for Eric and the maus Mr. White Howard cj McCollum again Next box That's right. Yeah luka so luka brawn guarding carmelo. That's fun. Next box. We've got derrick favors davante Graham And mo bomba autograph. Yes signature series nice one for the Orlando magic That's gonna be for Christopher Gerard. It's pretty neat. We've got a yanis right here. That'll ship his brother postis dame That that left hand right there the index finger dislocated No big deal Danny green in the background Like they've somehow seen the future we've got malik monk checkerboard and there's the next box right here Uh, yes matt f that's exactly what I meant I I honestly don't know what the price of that that that's curry hollow is but I know that like Lebron James cards like non rookie Lebron James cards from 1819 as well as as 1920 products I've seen some of those go for a lot of money Like a base card I've seen go for like 50 bucks in some sets A silver Lebron in a 1920 set could go for a hundred bucks grade it out a couple hundred bucks but I don't know if Steph's in that category yet, but I know that second year luka donch it just hasn't been playing well haven't have been uh Pretty good on the secondary market as with yanises Which is why those are the few vet commons that we tend to ship So not only like has rookie prices And prospect prices have gone up on the secondary market in recent times That has trickled down into Some uh, some of the some veteran players too. I know someone in our crew There's lime green isiah thomas someone in our crew was going through his old collection and said hey, I got this dirk no witsky Prism card from a group rake from us at chaspis case rakes dot com An old product like three four years ago and it's like not wasn't even his rookie or anything like that but But he said that when he did that break It was maybe a dollar card and then when When we did there he was like a dollar card And then now he said he sold it for like 25 dollars Which is not nothing, you know what I mean from a from a dollar card That wouldn't even be worth putting on ebay To a card where you can get like 20 25 bucks for it So it's worth looking through your collection Or the which camera the camera this camera right here Or that camera right there Or this camera right here These cameras logitech and this is a actual camera camera Hence why it looks so good The logitechs aren't that bad. All right last blaster box Good luck Marcus Aldridge Kobe costas Miss this guy Kobe Bryant Kevin Love Marvin Bagley Yannis again Lyme green robert ory rockets addition to 149 Yannis will go to The bucks that'll be for Chris Ericsson the Kobe Lakers will go to satyan winner stays Robert ory rockets addition goes to Eric There's ai express lane collin sexton rated rookie Gotta go to the calves or chris And they're the last two right there nothing terribly earth shattering in this one, but we've got some more That wasn't too bad But we got to we'll have some more in the store. So check it out jasky's casebreaks.com. I'm joe. I'll see you next time for the next one Bye-bye