Hi, welcome everyone. Yeah, we'll be starting, we'll be starting momentarily. Right. Thank you everyone. And hello. Thank you for tuning in. Welcome to the top slide in American committees. First live conversation of our speaker series titled decision 2021 elections in Latin America. My name is my turn on the road, and I am this year's vice president. Here at lack, we seek to dissect and scrutinize current events and issues in Latin America. Our mission is centered around creating spaces like these that engage both the top community and the general public to keep the conversation about the region alive. 2021 will prove to be a year of massive structural change in America with nine elections being hosted throughout the continent, five of which will be presidential. Massive influx of political change and continue continually democratic contestation and electoral participation will undoubtedly impact the next decade of Latin America politics. That's it. Thank you for joining us today for the inaugural conversation of this speaker series, where we will explore the region's elections with our invited expert. For this conversation, we will focus on three countries. Ecuador and Brazil. Ecuador and Peru went through elections two weeks ago, and their top candidates represented opposing views. We will analyze what factors came into play for their successes, how their campaigns have echoed the needs of the people and tried to notice regional trends towards certain policies or politicians. In the case of Brazil, a country with heavy influence in the region, we will try to infer what the 2022 elections will look like given the current state of the country and its leaders notorious controversies. With us today is Brian Winder, a journalist and expert in this field. Mr. Winder is the editor-in-chief of America Squadron and the Vice President for Policy at America Society and Council of the Americas. Winder spent a decade living in Latin America as a journalist for readers based in Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires and Mexico City. Since 2015, he has been based in New York City. His writings include the accidental president of Brazil, the story of Brazil's former president Fernando Enrique Cardoso, and no lost causes with ex-Colombian president Alvaro Rivera. Winder has been featured in TV, radio and media from NPR and the Wall Street Journal to Latin American media. Thank you for your presence today, Mr. Winder. It is a pleasure to have you here. Thank you, Mateo, for having me and for that introduction and I appreciate the invitation and admire all of you for being here on a Friday afternoon, which I know is always hard and a beautiful Friday afternoon too. So thank you for spending some time with us. It is also my honor and pleasure to introduce today's moderator, Patrick Bellard, who's the president of LAC. Patrick, whenever you're ready, you can take it. Thanks, Mateo. I'm glad it's an honor and pleasure. It's an honor and pleasure for me to be here. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. And thanks to Brian. Thank you so much again for kind of separating time from your day from this beautiful day, as you say, to speak with us a little bit. You know, before we dive into the questions, just two quick comments. If the audience does have any questions and there is a Q&A function, feel free to submit them through there and then we'll hopefully get to them by the end of this. And then I guess the second thing is that, Brian, if you could kind of give us a bit of a primer on what we'll be discussing today and a bit of your background, then that would be great. And we'll dive into the questions afterwards. All right, Patrick, that sounds great. Well, thanks again for the opportunity and just to briefly tell you a little bit about myself and why a gringo from Texas is here to talk to you today about Latin America. My story with Latin America really began right after I graduated undergrad from the University of Texas at Austin back in February of 2000. Six weeks after graduation, I bought myself a one way ticket to Buenos Aires with kind of a big dream of becoming eventually a journalist, but I thought at the time I would just be going to speak English for a while. So I ended up walking into the beginnings of one of the biggest economic meltdowns of the last 80 years, which is, you know, hit Argentina between 2001 and 2002, and that did turn into an internship and then a job with Reuters. Covering that whole crisis that saw five presidents in two weeks and a huge currency devaluation and big debt default unemployment was upwards of 30%. It was in many ways it was my baptism by fire and kind of journalism as well as Latin America. It ended up turning into a career and I've been following Latin American politics for the last 20 years. Half of that time I spent living in the region, the time in Buenos Aires which I already mentioned I did one year in Mexico City and then most recently I was based in Brazil in Brazil from 2010 to 2015. Since then I've been here in New York. I am a political analyst who follows Latin America and I also edit a publication about the region called America's Quarterly, which I hope you're, I hope you're familiar with. And, you know, as we look at the region today. Gosh, things are really tough. 2020 was a very difficult year. Latin America has 8% of the world's population but it had 28% of the world's confirmed COVID-19 related deaths last year. It was also with the Eurozone the part of the world that suffered the most economic damage. It has spiked hunger schools have been closed in far greater numbers than any other region in the world. And unfortunately, you know now that we're into 2021. And I, I, I frankly just on a personal note, I remind myself of this all the time. For most of us who are here in the United States. We've gotten better this year. You know, the, the death, the case loads are down. The pandemic has receded somewhat, although it hasn't totally disappeared. And we're making really extraordinary progress in terms of vaccines, as well as the economic recovery. And so if you're an American, you know, things seem better this year. But for most Latin Americans they're not even in the countries where vaccination has been relatively ahead of the curve and I'm thinking of Chile and Uruguay and a couple other places. Cases have continued to go up and those countries are still in sort of different stages of lockdown. And, you know, lockdown really more severe than we've generally seen here in the US and Chile people are really not leaving their apartments. And that's that's true in some other cases as well so things, things remain really tough and that's the people are tired. They're sick. They've lost loved ones. They're really angry at their governments, almost across the board. And that's really kind of the, the broader context for some of these specific elections that we're going to talk about today. So, Patrick with that, again, very short intro, kind of hand things over back to you. Brian, yes, I mean, everything you've kind of touched upon will hopefully get to discuss a bit more, you know, as the questions continue to unravel. Just a couple of comments the way we're going to approach it is kind of through through a case study basis we'll be looking at the Brazilian elections that are happening next year in October 2022 if I'm not mistaken. And then we'll take a look at Ecuador's elections which happened earlier this month and the Peruvian elections which are in the process and will be finalizing in June. Right, so I guess we'll just we'll just dive straight into it. First of all, concerning the Brazilian elections. Attention is on the possible polarization between Bolsonaro and Lula in the 2022 elections in Brazil. These observers worry about the prospect of a deeply polarized campaign in 2022 that will contaminate the political environment for coming months and could eliminate the space for other candidacies. It's worth noting that although Lula has not formally confirmed his candidacy, if I'm not mistaken, a recent poll conducted by IPEC or EPIC determined that the former president leads Bolsonaro by 12 points in terms of popularity which I guess is just something interesting to take into consideration.  So I was wondering if you could explain your reasoning for skepticism on the effects of, you know, this polarization between Bolsonaro and Lula in the 2022 elections and its impact. Yeah, these are great question to start. I can tell you guys are following Brazil really closely just kind of by the way that that was that was phrased. Look, I have expressed skepticism on Twitter and elsewhere that we would end up with a, you know, very polarized Lula versus Bolsonaro election. And less skeptical than I was maybe a month and a half ago meaning that with each passing day it seems more likely to me that we're going to end up with that Lula versus Bolsonaro race and I have to say I mean the word polarization. It gets used a lot in today's politics and sometimes it is a negative thing. And sometimes it's not anything to really be afraid of meaning polarization can mean people with different ideas and kind of different visions for what the future is. For what the future of Brazil is going to be. And I think that's clearly the case with these two candidates. And I'll come back a little bit to kind of what they are standing for and sort of their tactics, but to first just touch a little bit on the Brazilian context and kind of what's been happening over the last couple of months. And I mean the general intro that I gave regarding Latin America as a whole those things hold very true in Brazil. This P1 variant, the so called Manaus variant that was first located or first spotted in Brazil has just wreaked havoc this year and there are heartbreaking ways after you know it was already a difficult year in terms of the number of deaths last year. It's been awful to watch you know scenes of hospitals running out of oxygen and kind of lines out the door of hospitals, and the federal government the Bolsonaro government has received a lot of blame for that and a lot of it is justified. In this scenario, echoing in many cases the rhetoric that was coming out of Washington from his self described idle, his word is idle Donald Trump, you know really spent the initial months of the pandemic, using very similar language talking about how it was just a little flu touting hydroxychloroquine as a quote unquote miracle cure even though it's effects were not proven, which is kind of a diplomatic way of describing, you know, the effects of that that medication. And not really mobilizing Brazil's resources for vaccines in the kind of energetic way that he could have and again I'm maybe I'm being too diplomatic with my language I mean, Brazil is a country that has a long history of being advanced on vaccines. And it kind of frittered that away over the period of several months because again you had a president who, for various reasons was determined not to take it seriously. Now this was attenuated somewhat by and this will sound contradictory but you know sometimes especially in these big countries you can have multiple stories going on. Brazil also had on an economic side, the most rigorous kind of support, given to the most vulnerable amount members of society to help them through the, the pandemic I say the most, the most vigorous in Latin America. Brazil gave monthly payments for most of 2020 of about $100 $115 per month to some of these very vulnerable sectors of society and you know that may not sound to a layman like much but in a place like Brazil for people who are sort of part of the most economically vulnerable portions of society. It was actually a game changer, I mean it really helped a lot of people get through the pandemic. In a much better way than they would have otherwise and as a matter of fact, nationally because they were giving out this aid, the percentage of people living in extreme poverty actually fell compared to prior to the pandemic so this was a big deal that kind of helped sustain both scenarios approval ratings for a while, even as COVID was spreading like wildfire through society and causing a lot of, you know, health care hardship people economically felt okay about what was happening. It also helped support the broader economy in Brazil, Brazil's economy amongst the big ones was the economy that suffered the least destructive recession last year it only shrank about 4 point something percent. So, so you know those that was something that that was able to sustain both scenarios approval ratings for a while. But now sitting here in April 2021. I mean, the problem is you can't a country like Brazil that is has it's a fiscal accounts under pressure even in the best of times. They're able to afford those programs forever. And so that aid has now been substantially reduced and surprise surprise both scenarios approval ratings are now spiraling downward again. And so after the breach then back in March, stepped Lula. And, you know, I, I, I, I'm happy to sort of go into more detail about Lula's past I don't know how people bill how acquainted people are with who he is but this is a guy who's been a central figure, I would argue the central figure in Brazilian politics going all the way back to 1980. I mean he's really been kind of the protagonist. He was back now 40 plus years, and he was somewhat unexpectedly allowed to become a candidate he had been briefly. He was jailed for about a year on corruption charges, but those corruption charges were overturned by first by a one Supreme Court judge and by kind of the court as a whole. And the bottom line is that now to the surprise of some. It looks like Lula is going to be able to be a candidate next year and Patrick, you know, I do think he will run in fact I'm pretty certain that he will run, and it looks like it's going to be. I mean, I think it's safe to say Lula is a slight favorite at this point I don't I don't know that he's a slam dunk to win and there's a lot of time between now and next October, but he's he's looking strong and I, you know, given the bolster still maintains 25 to 30% of society is kind of with him no matter what, and Lula has about the equivalent. And, you know, maybe there's still a path for some kind of third party candidate who might be more in the center, but it looks very narrow. And some of the candidates who they thought might step into that space have kind of gone. No, you know, I mean they just see that there's so much energy with both of these candidates that that some of these figures appear to be sort of backing off and either pursuing other positions or not getting involved in politics at all. Yeah, I mean, I think you you laid brilliantly, you know, kind of explaining the whole scenario of what we're going into in 2022 and how, you know, this past year and the pandemic has influenced kind of Bolsonaro's, I guess, chances of getting elected. And something that you mentioned obviously consistently in the pandemic kind of presents a brilliant segue for kind of the next question that we wanted to ask you which correlates the pandemic with Bolsonaro's breed of populism. Now a little bit on, I guess for our audience on Bolsonaro's response to the pandemic. You know it's been met with a lot of criticism criticism due to his inability to curtail the threat, it poses to Brazil, you know, his response is mostly characterized by indifference I guess it's not even a matter of you know it's it's failure to acknowledge to a certain extent. And you know responses to the crisis have been slow. So I guess the question is how is his handling of the pandemic, a direct manifestation of his populism and to the guests his brand of populism. No, it's a good question. You know, populism is kind of a word that I, maybe I'm sort of quibbling here that I tend to avoid because I find that it gets misused a lot in the political space that it's kind of one of those words that people use to describe.  I mean, I think that in Bolsonaro's case, the more accurate I think he's clearly he's nationalist, but he also he subscribes to he calls it sort of an anti globalist, socially conservative school of thought that, you know, is very influenced by Donald Trump, specifically specifically by Steve Bannon, who has many interlocutors in positions of power in Brazil, including the president's son who they apparently. I mean they I know for a fact they've talked and they've talked they've spoken regularly over the years. But to be fair and to sort of try to paint all kind of sides of this for you, I mean, the way that Bolsonaro has cast this argument such I mean look he was clearly denialist, and has been consistently denialist at intervals since the pandemic started the way you can erase kind of those things that he said what he would say if he was here is that he has also stood up for people's quote unquote right to work and earn a living for them for their families in a country where there's often very little between between like day to day existence and starvation right I mean I, you know, people, most people in Brazil live on a very tenuous income and to not be able to go outside their homes and work for even a couple days puts them in a very difficult way very quickly so you know Bolsonaro has, I think somewhat cynically but also somewhat sincerely presented himself as sort of the defender is the guy who's going to stand up against your governor your mayor who wants to do lockpounds and keep you inside and and and then you know he has said some things in defense of that that I personally find reprehensible. I mean, you know things like.  Yes, people have died. I'm sorry, what do you want me to do. I mean just some very kind of you know attempts to kind of wash his hands so I think you know I think some of it is clearly world view. I think some of it is also listening to some of the wrong people. And, and I think some of it again to be fair I think some of it is a recognition that while things like mask wearing the efficacy of that is not not open for debate. The efficacy of lockdowns is open to debate and he has positioned himself as very anti lockdown, because they say he says they do more harm than good and I, you know, so that's that's kind of where he's been but what's undeniable as we sit here and again in April 2021 is the public's opinion of his handling of the pandemic is is at the floor. I mean whatever good will was generated by this emergency program that he started is is is gone now, and he's really suffering a lot of political pressure as a result. And one just just just one one note on that. The day Lula was allowed back in the race was sort of officially authorized, you know, to where he had his corruption conviction overturned it became clear that he was probably going to be a candidate again. Bolsonaro shows up for a press conference with a mask on, which was not something that he had done much of and it wasn't the first time but it was definitely everybody kind of went like he realizes that he's under pressure. He's under pressure now. And there have been some other moves that he's made since then that clearly, you know, are kind of in a defensive posture, preparing for, you know, a very strong election challenge next year that he didn't expect when the year began. Right. Um, yeah, I mean I remember that vividly I think it was like March 8 or the week of March 8 that it was, it was kind of a turnaround where, yeah, he was kind of wearing his mask and it was like, Oh, okay, I guess, he feels the pressure definitely.  You know many international leaders have criticized his administration's inability to take climate crises in Brazil seriously. And he has said that his recent speech at the climate summit, which, yeah, it was more cognizant of the crisis but he apparently has failed to still put his words into action. So, you know, could his inability to deal with the climate crisis negatively impact his election chances.   And I think specific actions that undermined what had been a success a Brazilian success story over the last 25, really 20 years in terms of reducing deforestation levels. The deforestation levels had started to rise again prior to his presidency but they've dramatically gone up there up 40% since he took office on New Year's Day in 2019. And, you know, this is a guy who also for part of his political support base in Congress has the so-called grilleros and, you know, kind of illegal loggers and others as part of his support base so I think it's perfectly fair to be skeptical of him because he has kind of changed his tune somewhat and, you know, his speech yesterday did surprise a lot of people with its tone, as well as some of the specifics. I was speaking to a former US diplomat just earlier today, who told me that his reaction while listening to the speech was one of astonishment he was like, who is this guy. It doesn't even sound like the same Bolsonaro. And apparently there was even some technical language that was in there that was virtually identical to what the Workers Party governments on the left had been saying 10 years ago. And so, you know, it really does show a change in tone. But look, I mean the fair question is so what. So what you gave a speech. So what. And that is, for all the reasons I cited a very fair and I think necessary question and the the answer really is, is now Brazil has to show positive progress in terms of reducing before station levels in 2021. We got some goals yesterday for 2030. It's, it's not gonna be enough, because for two reasons I mean one because I think we all know the urgency of climate change and we know that this government in the United States is attuned to that, but also, you know the diplomats and specifically and Kerry, you know the former Secretary of State whose Biden's climate and boy, they are very attuned to the possibility that Brazil is just bullshitting to use the technical term. And so they want to make sure that there's, you know, real progress in 2021. And so they're going to be watching very closely and as far as the question about the impact on the election. I, it's tough to say I don't think it ultimately impacts many votes because this has not been a big domestic issue in Brazil and as a matter of fact. There's been polling over the years it suggests that resilience mostly approve or better put, it's actually one of Bolsonaro's best issues and polls is handling of the environment because people kind of see it as an us versus them thing. It does make a big difference in certain quarters and particularly the business establishment in Brazil, which is very anti deforestation, because they realize that it poses a risk to their bottom lines basically they fear, you know whether you're Brazilian bank, or I think in a lot of cases with the business companies they realized that, you know, this whole deforestation thing this whole Amazon question and having Leo de Caprio and others kind of tweeting about you all the time. It's bad for business because it affects your reputation it makes people not going to buy your product, and it makes Brazil kind of a toxic brand in the world. So, you know, part of the reason why Bolsonaro is changing his tack on this is because of pressure from the business sector specifically, whose support he need you know he was he had back in 2018 when he got elected and who he needs again in 2022. Okay, well, yeah, this is all incredible and extremely interesting and I guess we could just talk about this the rest of the conversation but considering that we do have a couple of other elections to get to. We can move on to the Ecuadorian election. And I'll give the parole to my day I don't know if you want to go ahead and ask some questions on on Ecuador. Thank you Patrick. Brian, as we were discussing earlier, right. Because there's just just a very peculiar case. You know, having the first round of elections in February, where it was the, where the second place was very contested and there was a lot of controversy on whether a candidate Guillermo lasso. You know, like actually passed to the second round and it was contested by the, by the third runner, Yacu Pérez and by many other blocks. And then finalizing in, in, in, in April and actually having Guillermo lasso beat the Correista candidate, Andrés Arauz, who was a former culture minister and central bank director, you know, representing the ex presidents Rafael Correá legacy of leftist policies in Ecuador. And, and who, who, at least to my eyes was very against, against many odds Guillermo lasso was able to beat in a very narrow, you know, by a very narrow difference to be, be that Andrés Arauz. So my first question would be a, you know, Lasso's chances of winning were slim. Again, in the first round, he was the second runner by 13 by a 13 point difference from a house. You know, there was controversy on whether he was supposed to come in second or Yacu Pérez. And there was even a tendency to request Lasso to step down from the candidacy for the country's sake, you know. And so, so, and you know, there's also the case that the democratic left and the indigenous block later pushed for voting no or submitting an empty ballot in the second, the second round of voting. Brian, out of all these things, what do you think made Lasso win against against so many odds? Well, thank you, Mateo, for those questions. And I, you know, as we were talking a little bit in the pregame, you know, you're Ecuadorian and actually Ecuador is one of only two countries in the region that I've never actually worked in or been to before. So I always always try to make that disclaimer because that, you know, people, people like to give opinions and I think it's tough to really be a credible analyst on some of these places if, if you've never been there. In my case with Ecuador, I've been following it very closely, but it's it's it's not the same if you've been there on the ground. I mean, if I, if I stray it all from the, you know, from the beaten path I trust you'll you'll keep you'll keep me honest and sort of jump in and I'd like to hear your opinion on some of these things too. Look, I think Ecuador had this this election had outsized importance that kind of surpassed Ecuador's actual size which of course it's not not one of the the largest countries or the largest economies on the continent. You know this was a barometer where election where you know we saw kind of a center right candidate in in Guillermo Lasso who you know was a banker or a businessman who had had run for president I think twice before and and fallen short running against this younger figure Andre Saraos who was in his 30s. Actually, I think it was a 30 year difference between an age between these two candidates, but our house was there very much as kind of a, almost a proxy candidate for Rafael Korea who had been the president during the 2000s and part of the reason people were watching this is because one of the kind of macro trends happening in Latin American politics right now is this you know reaching back into the 2000s. You know the 2000s were a great period for Latin America it was in fact you could argue the period from roughly 2003 to 2013 was was probably the best period in the region's modern history. Economically politically you know it was mostly Democratic, you had the commodities boom being driven by all this demand from China. You had economies that grew at very vigorous rates and you also had some 50 million people who came out of poverty, and into the middle class and Ecuador was was a country where one of the countries where this happened and so all across the region I mean in Argentina where they, they, they last year they, they elected, not Christina Kirchner but Christina Kirchner was the vice president and she had somebody in the, in the presidential spot, you know that was at least at some effort for a lot of Argentines that was an ability to kind of recreate the magic of those years. I think similar dynamic clearly in play in Ecuador and by the way I think there's an element of that in the Brazilian election that we were just talking about. Part of the reason that so many people want Lula back is because they remember those years correctly. They remember those years as being really good years. So, and most of these leaders, you know, with the so called pink tide of kind of a grab bag if you will have kind of flavors along the ideological spectrum on the left, meaning you had kind of center leftist figures during those years Lula who were democratic, and then you had kind of the much harder left anti democratic and dictatorial as represented by Chavez in Venezuela which is all to say that's kind of the regional context in which this whole Ecuadorian vote happened. Now, as for the specifics on this one, I, I like you Mateo I mean I was very surprised that Lasso one, and you know you mentioned the result was close but it actually wasn't that close it was, you know also one by five percentage points which in today's politics is is a lot and the concession happened very quickly at what explains a you know 60 something year old banker, winning in a country where I'm here it gets very convoluted but like basically he was representing a kind of continuity from the Lenin Moreno government in terms of economic policies and a government that was extremely unpopular, the Moreno government right. I think that the the easiest answer is that you had that the backlash against Korea, and against that sort of brand of politics was stronger than many of us anticipated, and it was strong kind of throughout society but where it really surprised us was in indigenous movements and indigenous movements. And here just to kind of conclude I mean again all this stuff like when you try to explain the details it can get really complicated but as you referenced they were really there were three main candidates in the first round of this election. And the guy that Lasso edged out was this Yaku Pérez, who's who represents kind of a new left, right like a left that has its roots in the indigenous movement in the Ecuadorian case that is very quote unquote anti extractivist you know really believes that that mining needs to be reduced or eliminated. All together. And, you know they barely missed out on making the second round. And, you know, I think that that Korea and our house made a huge mistake in that once they went to that second round I watched it happen. Today, Korea and our house spent all of their energy trying to annihilate Yaku Pérez with all the sort of force of like their bloggers and you know they're, it's kind of this regional network of people who really seem most focused on destroying Yaku Pérez because they don't know what to do with them as kind of competition in that left of center space and in doing so, they, you know, maybe they failed to focus on Lasso. And they also, you know, really angered Yaku Pérez and his supporters and as a result or as a result but that sort of informed the decision that Yaku Pérez made to tell his supporters to abstain, not to vote in the runoff.  They might have been on the issues sort of naturally like naturally inclined to vote for our house and Korea, but the amount of anger was such that that, you know, it may have cost, it may have cost our house and Korea the election. This is very interesting. Yeah, certainly, it's, it's, it was a strategical, I guess, a bad move, you know, from my house and Korea, and on the other side, you know, like, as you mentioned, there's this all these bottled up feelings against the previous government of Korea. You know, could have played a role, certainly. And so, so my second question would also be, as you mentioned that there were like, you know, like, center or center left leaning people who actually abstained because who would have rather vote for, for Korea or or a house but in, and ended up abstaining or voting for lasso. Many of these include young voters, women, members of the LGBTQ plus community. So, so, so my question would be a, like, what are, what are their concerns, why, why did they choose lasso, who represents, you know, a conservative right over a house, and if so, how should lasso after being elected by them as well, move to compromise with the voters that put him into office. Let me try to answer the second part of that first. I mean, there is already, I mean, during the runoff process, lasso showed signs of being willing to compromise on some of his key positions in order to win, in order to win the supports, the support of, you know, kind of segments of society who might not ideologically have been with him to kind of make his candidacy more amenable. One of the challenges he faces is that now that the elections over and the sort of the common enemy is gone. It's going to be really tough for him to govern, because he really has very little support in Congress. And not to sound like an old timer but, you know, prior to Korea, Ecuador was a country that I don't know the exact math on this but where it was very important for leaders and presidents to to suffer sort of popular results and army coups and other things I mean it was it was a perennially unstable country in a, you know, even, I mean, Latin America sort of has that reputation but even by Latin American standards like Ecuador prior to Korea was was very, very unstable and I'm sure you grew up with that and you know what I'm talking about so there's always sort of this question hanging over Ecuador, as well as Bolivia for that matter, which kind of had a similar history prior to Abel Morales you know another kind of 2000s era leader that was indirectly not exactly voted back in but his party was voted back in last year. Now, is, are they going to be, are they going to be able to hold it together is also going to be able to hold it together. As far as you know the insecurities of the rest of society that's kind of that's that is exactly the kind of question that's hard to address. If you're not spending time on the ground or if you're not from a place I'd be curious to hear your answer to the question that to that part of the question that you asked me I mean what, what do you what do you think that Lasso was able to tap into as far as that the insecurities of those groups of society that mentioned. Wow that's, that's, that's a good question. Certainly. Well, it's quite interesting. He followed, I don't know, I don't know if you're familiar but there were three main candidates as you mentioned, you know, arouse lasso, and then Yaku Pérez who came in a closer against lasso. But there was also a fourth candidate and a fourth candidate who gathered 14% of the votes in the first round, and he was unknown before the elections. And, you know, through social media through through ticked up he became very viral on ticked up and other social media. And he was able to you know, spread his vision and also connect with the youth connect with with other groups of people. He also hired this, the campaign manager for this for this guy right after the first round, which I think really helped him, you know, connect with these other groups of people. The campaign's although many people can argue that it is very outdated in the way he addresses them. He's also open, you know, to, to respect other people's differences, allegedly, by his, you know, by his speeches. And many people are also very, very worried that he might impose that he might not keep his word and impose, you know, he's very conservative vision, not only of what he represents but what he follows he belongs to the Opus Dei very conservative religious branch. So certainly it's more than anything something to keep an eye out for. But, but yeah, like he, as we discussed, he was able to connect and gather other votes from people that, you know, many including me wouldn't wouldn't think that he was going to be able to get. And, and also, you mentioned governability and I think that's my final, my final point my final question regarding Ecuador. And it's, as you said he has a minority in Congress. And interestingly enough, the day after he was elected, the country's risk rate dropped massively, meaning that there was going to be, you know, a better opportunity for trade and economic deals for Ecuador in the international community. But at the same time, what does this mean if he has a minority in Congress, and more importantly, and you know the country is undergoing a huge health care and economic crisis in the last week, death rates spiked to over 900% due to the pandemic. All these things against him. How can he impose his vision for the country, and perhaps prevent this from becoming, you know, a Macri example where where Macri the rightist liberal economist came in and four years after he left Argentina in one of the greatest crisis they've had. They immediately proceeded to, to elect a Fernandez who represents you know, the left, which is be analogous to Correa or a house. And, you know, so so failure of imposing his vision for lasso would most likely mean a huge comeback for Correa. How can he circumvent all these odds. No, you can't. And I, you know, the comparison that you just made between Macri and lasso is one that a lot of people are making and I, you know, Argentina and Ecuador are very different countries. And, you know, Argentina's problems. Thank God for Ecuador. They are very different and often sort of seem intractable. Lots of also may have an easier time I don't know who sort of has the harder task before them but it's, I think it's, I think it's gonna be really difficult and I nothing, you know this is a story that we see repeating itself again and again throughout the region right now you don't see like the political alignment happening that makes you sort of say, that's going to like sort of establish the path that gets us out of this crisis. A lot of these places Argentina is one of them. Colombia is one of them. Chile is one of them. There's just so much. You know this is and this is where I think it is fair to use the term polarization and kind of with the negative connotation. It's it's there's no, there's no consensus around sort of the basic steps necessary to get us out of this really terrible situation because you know kind of looking at the region as a whole. It's true that Latin America was ground zero for the pandemic in terms of both its health and its economic effects, and people are now talking about the 2020s being potentially a lost decade for Latin America. But the truth is the 2010s were kind of a lost decade to like it was, it was a crappy decade it was, it was actually, it was the region in the world that grew the least in the Latin America was in the 2010s. And so we're talking about really, you know, since 2013 2014 when the, you know, the Brazilian story took a turn for the worse and Venezuela took it way more dramatic turn for the worse and Argentina started its sort of tailspin that you referenced under the country. You know, things are bad and the political consensus is just not there. We don't see and I've said this publicly and it gets me in trouble every once in a while when I say it but I really do believe it's true. And this is, this is the lowest quality group of Latin American presidents that we've had since I've been following the region, 20 years ago, kind of regardless of your ideological predilection whether you like somebody you know who's sort of center left center center right. There's just not that many and a couple leaders that are okay but like, there's not anybody who just makes you go like wow like that's an example of a country that in tough times is kind of putting things together and, and taking things forward. So yeah, I think that consensus is going to my senses it's going to continue to be elusive in Ecuador and, and in some other countries as well and that's one reason why, you know, the, the World Bank, for example, has said that they don't expect Latin American economies to recover on a per capita basis to where they were back before the pandemic started until 2025. And that's that's later than any other region in the world. I did not know, I mean sorry to be a drag, you know, and you know the thing is the irony of this is like, Latin America is cyclical it's always had ups and downs and I keep trying to remind myself of that as I, you know, as I talk and right and kind of do all the things I do but it's just it's really hard to see right now where that cyclical recovery kind of that takes things back in a positive direction, where it's going to come from.  And speaking of that just for a final, for some final, you know, a quick topic, I'll pass it on to Patrick. Yeah, we can, you know, briefly discuss about about another country that is going into a very boring time period. So, thank you, Patrick. Yeah, I mean, great. I wish we could have kind of a panel to discuss each of these case studies because they're obviously so, you know, rich in debate that we need to have. You know, just to give a little bit of attention to Peru, given it's, it's kind of centrality, you know, in June, I think are the final elections if I'm not mistaken. And, you know, you kind of have Castillo and fully money apparently is is kind of going to be the final running and it's extremely interesting kind of what they represent and what's going to happen in June, could potentially be an indicator of what happens in the rest of Now, concerning the Peruvian case, you know, the stressors imposed by the pandemic have led to strife throughout all of Peru, you know, it's been particularly hit, you know, it's a rather salient case in the study of the pandemic in Latin America. Those stressors have also made it more difficult than ever for political parties to fulfill their promises and satiate the needs of their constituents. And due to this phenomenon, outsider politics have arisen in Peru and in other parts of Latin America to challenge conventional mainstream political parties, which you know happens often but I guess now, you know, looking at the pandemic is you could see it see it as a direct consequence. Let's move to candidate profiles and talking about Pedro Castillo being a school teacher that attained prominence as a leading figure in the 2017 teacher strike in Peru. What does Castillo's candidacy say about the changing image of the typical presidential candidate in Peru. And how does, how does his story fit into the outsider politics narrative, if, if at all. That's the question I mean Castillo is like, has, you know, came rocketing out of nowhere in this election. And one just kind of funny story at America's quarterly we put together these election guides, where we kind of do these little thumbnail profiles of each candidate and kind of brief into the point. And over the course of the Peruvian race we decided, you know, we always kind of establish a threshold for when we're going to profile a candidate or not because in these elections where there's like 1020 candidates like we just, we can't. I mean we don't have enough people like we have to draw the line somewhere and, and so in the Peruvian race we decided to draw that. This is the same threshold we use elsewhere but at the 5% support level so any candidate who's above 5% at some point in the race we profiled so we profiled eight candidates in this race. Castillo was the ninth Castillo came rocketing out of nowhere during literally the last like two weeks of the campaign and ended up in the runoff and I mentioned that because he is like the classic blow it all up candidate. And that's why people voted for him was because he's an outsider, but also I mean, more than that. This is a guy who, you know, has been very critical of kind of the Peruvian economic model of the last 2030 years. You know, he has his party said that he was going to nationalize key industries now he's sort of backed away from that and said that that's not what he intends to do. I mean, there's no better context on Peru, like he has a fascinating story because over the last 1520 years you can actually make a case that Peru has been at least among the big countries, Latin America's biggest economic success story. It had the fastest GDP growth. It also, particularly in my mind it was the country that had some of the biggest declines if not the biggest declines in poverty and inequality also got better, which was unusual during that period. But the politics were always a mess. And, you know, as we got into 2020, it was tragically the country. So just to pause for a second. That has been kind of the framework that a lot of people, particularly in the United States and particularly here in New York have looked at Peru and they'd be like, oh my God, like how can they do that peruse been like the greatest success story and they're not wrong what they're missing in some cases is that the pandemic was especially cruel with Peru and there's a reason why. Or there's many reasons why we think that that was the case it was the country that are per capita basis had the most deaths from COVID not only in Latin America but possibly in the world. And some of the numbers, you know, you can't take those things as if they're these numbers as if they're gospel but it's very clear that in Peru, the devastation was terrible, and it also had one of the world's deepest economic recessions as a result because in part because they did a very, very strict lockdown that didn't work that didn't didn't didn't work and part of the reason why was because even as Peru made all this progress over the last 1520 years they did not really build out the Peruvian state and particularly the healthcare system but also the banking system, the school system kind of other, you know, kind of state capacity, what some people call that was just not there, even compared to places like Brazil. So, for example, when Peru tried to pass an aid program and try to try to sort of help out people so that they could stay at home what they discovered was, they weren't able to get money to a lot of these people, because they didn't, they didn't have. They weren't part of the formal economy that the Peruvian government just didn't know how to get to them. You could almost think of COVID-19 as being sort of like this heat seeking missile that was perfectly designed to reveal the shortcomings of that Peruvian model of the last 15 to 20 years. And then, you know, these elections, maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe had the you could say the the misfortune of being timed just as, you know, Peru was expected and I think to some extent, it still is expected to have a very vigorous economic recovery this year from that huge kind of dive they were in 2020, but it's not enough. It's not enough to get them back to where they were before, and people were and still not are not feeling that recovery in a way that eased their anger so all that adds up to a very angry populace that voted for one candidate is Castillo, who very anti-establishment, perhaps anti-democratic, and then another candidate and Keiko Fujimori, whose democratic credentials are just as dubious, if not more so than Castillos, and who kind of represents a different phenomenon. So a lot of people now in Peru are like, God, who do I vote for? And that's actually kind of something that segues into the next question, which has to do with, yeah, that whole controversy on the, I think, the filing by Peruliure to kind of nationalize certain key industries, you know, that has obviously created a bit of unrest, especially in rural areas that rely on, you know, the copper mining industry, for example, which I think was specifically mentioned in the filing, if I'm not mistaken. You know, how do you think that Castillo could potentially, I guess, get back from that? Do you think he'll be able to rally enough support and I guess appeal to rural populations who feel maybe excluded and I guess afraid of his political ideology to a certain extent? I think Castillo's leading in the polls right now. He, at present, it looks like he might win. And actually a lot of his support has come from these rural areas. It's kind of this rural, very indigenous, you know, part of Peru that he, you know, he represents. And, you know, as far as what he's going to do, I mean, it's amazing to kind of be here again and Latin American politics, so often a politics in general, but particularly Latin American politics. But so much depends on like what one person does. And like who is, who is this person? What do they believe? What are their plans? Those questions end up making, you know, really determining kind of the fate of nations, right? Like is Castillo, if he's elected, is he going to be more, especially after the comments that he made this week trying to distance himself from, you know, what he describes as his more radical base? Is he telling the truth? Is he like a Lula figure where he's like, no, no, no, no, I've changed.  Or is he more like a Chavez who, you know, Chavez also swore up and down at various points over the years, particularly early in his presidency that he was a Democrat and a moderate and that he didn't want to expropriate kind of all these things and then he ended up doing what he did. You know, sometimes even, even these people and they're in their heart of hearts, they don't, they don't know what they're going to do. And it depends on circumstances and kind of how things go. So, you know, I often say that kind of one of the lines I've maybe used too much is that to really follow Latin American politics, it's better to have a psychoanalyst than a political analyst. Because so much of it depends on trying to like understand like these, these individuals who, and, and, and what they're going to do. Right. Yeah, I guess I'll definitely be that phrase will definitely stick with me for a while. So that said, obviously there's so much more we could discuss about Peru. But I do want to turn to the Q&A because I see that we have some questions there and that we are a bit over time. There is kind of one interesting one that says are the protests of 20 I mean both of them are very interesting but kind of looking at what we haven't discussed. Are the protests of 2019 a sign of strong democratic participation or could they pose a threat to democratic institutions. I guess that's a pretty interesting perspective to look at. That is yeah I mean there's a lot that's a short question but there's sort of a lot, a lot in that question. You know, well for those who I know that everybody here kind of follows the region but in late 2019 October 2019 we had these huge protests break out in Chile and Ecuador kind of Bolivia as well, and Columbia also. You know they kind of went away because of the pandemic and it faded a little bit before that but it was you know the pandemic kind of the obvious inability to kind of be out there on the street. Chased a lot of people off and one of the questions that's kind of hanging over everything right now is, is that just like a fire that's getting ready to kind of, you know flare back up again. Once the pandemic is not that it's over but once people are kind of able to be back out on the streets and I don't know the answer to that. As far as whether it's a threat to democracy or not. I think it depends on the country I would say no, in most cases I'm sort of thinking case by case, like in the Chilean case which was kind of the most dramatic and the one that people still talk about the most. I think Chile showed its maturity and ended up channeling the energy from those protests into a constitutional convention that's going to produce a new charter. It's going to be written under democracy as opposed to the one that was written under the Pinochet dictatorship back in 1980 and you know I obviously think that's a good thing. So, you know I would prefer at least for now to. I mean I think look in the Chilean case they were there were there people who were involved in those protests who were anti democratic. Yeah. But but not the majority I mean you had, you know you had 1.3 million people in the streets I think these were people who are mostly responding to what they saw as the shortcomings of their government and exercising their democratic right to protest so if anything I think that most of these protests were a celebration of democracy rather than a threat to it. Right, yeah I think that's. That's brilliant I think that's that's very well put I often talk about the Chilean case as well just because of how you know how peculiar it is and how one can directly tie that to the constitutional amendments that you know the delegates that will be chosen I guess this is one of which is also one of I guess the democratic participation that we're looking at. I think that that marks the amount of time that we have unfortunately. I guess I'll let my they'll give give the official conclusion but Brian it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much. Thank you and I was a pleasure to be here. Once again on behalf of lack and of myself. Thank you very much Mr. for coming to our speaker series and just, you know, providing so much context and just you know like like a very, very well thought out and put out analysis of you know what what the region is undergoing with a pandemic with elections what this might mean for the future. And how the past connects to this I think it was very, very, very clear for everyone so thank you very much. I also want to thank our eboard, who just put a lot of work into the research into the outreach for this and the design and development of this project and speaker series so thank you so much and to our audience as well thank you for for tuning in and for always being there with us. We understand there are many topics we could not get to. Therefore, if you would like to continue the conversation with Brian, please refer to our Facebook page at top slack, or his social media handles like his Twitter at Brazil Brian. Or if you want to learn more about our organization or upcoming events. And also post a follow up to this meeting with information about it so keep tuned. Again, thank you very much for your attendance and have a great rest of your day. All right, thank you so much. Take care. Thanks Brian thanks everyone. Thank you.


and welcome back to the First Time Homebuyer Show. As you know, I'm your host, Estie Klaas, and we've got amazing content coming to you live every weekday this week. We've got someone doing guacamala with the private property podcast. That's live at 7 p.m. On Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And of course, Chad Vavuras travels around in Zanzi Johannesburg, looks at gorgeous mansions, to townhouses, to beautiful apartments in Hyde Park. That is live every Friday and Monday at 8 p.m. And let's not forget the First Time Homebuyer comes to your screens every Wednesday night at 8 p.m. And of course, Mbali comes to your screens with the farming podcast every Tuesday and Thursday evening at 8 p.m. And without further ado, this evening I'm sitting with the absolutely amazing man, extremely passionate about property, his real estate journey, fairly new, but he's gotten into it and he knows the ropes, and he's here to show us how to do it, and also the pros and the cons of the property industry and even just buying property to begin with. Good afternoon, Tumilo, how are you? Hi, Estie, nice to meet you. Thank you for the kind words. Oh, another young guest, guys, another young gentleman. Tumilo, you're 26 years old. You've been in real estate for about two years, you said. How's that been? And also, actually, let's, before we even get there, why property? Yeah, so I've just slowly grown a passion of property. I think it's something from an early age I always wanted to do, wanted to be a part of, primarily the property and just property development, I think just my ultimate goal is just to build generational wealth and legacy, and I think having a building out there that's built and you see it there and just like, I was a part of that, I built that, I made that, that's something that I wanna have and carry for my family and for generations to come. So I think that's the main drive for me going to property, but also I think it makes sense. Property is a good investment to invest in finances and things like that, so yeah, that's why I choose property. And there's something so powerful about a tangible generational wealth or tangible asset. Exactly. That you can leave behind, it's like leaving a legacy, but it's there and people can see it and people can access it, so I love that. And I wanna end off with that question actually about generational wealth and financial freedom, because you said that's your ultimate goal. Exactly. Right, so what are you actually doing to reach that ultimate goal? So basically it's just building my portfolio in my property sector. Right now I'm starting off as a real estate agent. Something long before I didn't think it's something I do, a lot of times when people think about property, when they think about property investment, they think it's all about just purchasing a property, getting a tenant or house flipping. And sure, those are things that I sort of looked into doing in beginning my whole portfolio, but you can start from the ground and you can start being a property practitioner like your real estate agent and from there, you'll be able to learn and have these networks and people like contractors and all those people there in the industry as well. It helps you learn, it helps you grow. So that's how I'm sort of starting my journey. So I'm doing real estate and I wanna qualify to be a principal real estate agent that way you're able to trade under your own name instead of under a franchise or a business. And then that way as well as I can form my own property development company as well, be able to meet with other contractors, your Bowen properties, how they sort of, that's sort of the ultimate goal, that's sort of the business that I wanna go into. So that's how I wanna build my sort of generational wealth and then be able to support my family. I think, especially as a young black man, a lot of things we do our first time, you know, we're the first to go to varsity, we're the first to be doctors in our families, to be lawyers. So I would also be that one to build that generational wealth for my family. And for you, of course, it's also you're the first, right? Exactly, exactly. I love that. Also, I wanted to take it back to how you spoke about, cause you're very passionate about development. I feel like development is your underlying goal and everything relies on that. So how will you introduce to property to begin with? Well, see, that's the thing. And I think, you know, we'll talk about obviously the organization that I'm a part of. Yeah. But a lot of times when you're young, you're not exposed to such things, right? I was really exposed into property and property development in 2017. I had a friend, he was reading at the time, a very famous book, Rich Dad Poor Dad Robert Carlson. And then in the same year, there was these property workshops that, you know, you bring, you pay in like a week long workshop. You pay to attend and basically train you on ways how to enter property investment, whether it's just buying and flipping houses, whether it's from the ground up property developments, or just buying a property for rentals. So those are sort of the workshops we went to. So, you know, at the time, I couldn't afford it, but I was grateful now to have a friend who could help me, you know, pay for the ticket. And so I attended and from there, that's what I knew what I wanted to do. And probably more into property development because I just liked the idea of building something from the ground up, you know. That's how I feel, you know, it's the legs I want to do. I think if you look now in 10 years back, the waterfall precinct was nothing but dust. But now what has turned out to, it's something that's so great and it's something that I also want to build. So I think that's why, that's the underlying thing. So yeah, around 2017, that's when, you know, I was more aligned and more into, you know, the property development aspect of it. Let's take it to the organization. And before we even get there, could you tell our audience a little bit about the organization and what exactly they did for you? Yes. Well, so the organization is called Youth in Property Association, YEPA in short. We're an MPO. We established actually in 2017 in Cape Town. And what we're doing and what we're aiming is to transform the property industry. And how we do it, we want to increase the active participation of the youth, primarily the black youth in the property sector. And we do that by creating opportunities in your employment, in your entrepreneurship, as well as in education. All right, so they formed in 2017, right at the times when my passion in property was forming. And you know, what they did for me and what I want to do for the rest of the youth in our country is one, bring awareness into the property sector, right? And in careers in the property sector, like I said, a lot of times when we think about that, we just think about property investing and buying property. But there's so many careers around the property sector. One, there's also important is what you can study, right? So instead of your traditional doctors, we're giving more opportunities in your field of study. So what I do primarily in the organization is I work with grade 11s and grade 12s right around in the high school, right at the time when they think about career paths and what they want to study. And I present to them obviously these opportunities in the property sector. We also want to partner with organization to offer bursaries. And what we also do is we do job-shedding programs as well. So that's part of what the organization do. And you also want to give access to people in the property sectors in terms of your property conferences, which most of the times are very expensive too. So we offer discounted off free tickets for people to be in these spaces. So yeah, that's the meat of what we do. Right. And over the four years we've grown tremendously, we have over a thousand members. Oh wow. And now we've also secured a sponsorship with Liberty 2 degrees.  And I think it's a great initiative. I particularly love that you work with the youth, grade 11 and 12. It's such a prime time for kids to make those final decisions, right? What was the biggest lesson you've learned from them? I think the biggest lesson is that these young people are actually curious. Yeah. And you know, being able to provide this information, this information that they want. And I think also just coming back to how I grew up when I was in high school. Yeah. These are things that I would have wished would have happened to me. Happened to you, yeah. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about it because I know there's a need for such things. So yeah, they're very curious people. In that sense, you find more people who actually then realize how passionate they are about property and things they want to do. And I think that's the beautiful part about it. Just engaging with them, bringing awareness, educating them about it. Yeah, I think the biggest lesson is that people are curious, they want this information. And I think it's good that we are in this position to be able to do that. And to introduce them to something that they thought they may never, ever come across or maybe 10 years later. I love that.  I'm sure you're teaching them lots of, to them it's obviously a big lesson every day or when you're with them, but something that maybe stood out to you and that you remember. I think it's just put yourself out there. I think that's one of my most important lessons. Just put yourself out there, whatever opportunity they come across, grab it with both hands and grab it tight. I was like that before, not just in your career, but in your sports and things like that. And meet new people, engage with people. Network. Network, exactly. That's one of the business, especially leaving your high school, going into your varsity, I think that's something that's very important. People that you're gonna be in classes with, they're gonna be future leaders and CEOs and things like that. So it's good to build that network, right? You guys are all in the same level in order to work better and collaborate in the future. Tamela, when was the time when you took that piece of advice and applied it to your own life? I think for me, I did it at a very young age. I did it on high school, all the way to varsity. I think the other question is, when did that sort of now fall back? Correct. No, because of your challenges in school, in varsity. You tend to be a bit more reserved now because of the challenges you're facing in life. But yeah, I've been like that from high school and I'm trying to continue that and take my own advice. And I think that's why I'm in sort of like platforms like this. Exactly. I'm putting myself out there and bringing awareness and just showing people that you can achieve things that you want to put your mind into. I love that because I feel like, even just talking to you just before the show, there's so many things that you have gone through that I've taught you lessons. And I love, especially the fact that you're giving back.  But a question I wanted to, if someone came to you and was like, hey, what's your story? How do you respond to that? Like, where do I start? Yeah. Where do I start?  Of course, yeah. Yeah, I've had my struggles. I look, I think my sort of journey to where I was to now, I've always been sort of in a straight path. Oh yeah. It was pre-planned from high school. Yeah. I went to high school, dual in high school, a private world, a varsity. So I was accepted in UCT, studying electrical engineering. And yeah, in your first two years being there, well, okay, then things started being bad. And now you talk about your mental health as well. So it's been a tough journey. And I think also what I did not understand before, in my family and coming up to when you're an adult and you start understanding situations was, you know, we're not well off. Right. I was in varsity mainly because of a burgery. Right. If I did not have that, I wouldn't have had that opportunity of education. You know what I mean? So being struck by those realities also like really hit hard. Yeah. But I've always been to myself just never to give up.  Stay true to your ambitions because I knew I'm a very ambitious person. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of things I want to achieve in my life. And although you get your very tough years, your very tough things, you must never give up, keep pushing, keep focused. And yeah, I think I'm still growing, I've been learning, but I think I'm at a stage now where I understand better how to handle sort of tough situations and how to make that grow you instead of put you down. Exactly. And I think that's such a beautiful message because we have quite a lot of young viewers watch the show and I think, you know, keep pushing. I know it sounds very easy to say. It's so much easier to say than to do, you know, because you do get those moments that you know there are kids in university who just feel demotivated every single day and we don't know how to just get up. But I think, yeah, you're right. If anything, we need to learn to tell ourself. A lot of the times on the show, we talk about self-empowerment and knowing thyself in order to even start up. And property and self, you feel like they're so far apart, but you know, if you don't know who you are or what it is that you want even, you know, your short-term, long-term goals, how do you reach your property goal on that note to me at all?  Yeah. When is the time for us to discover ourselves and what to do and what we would love to do, you know what I mean? And I think part of my journey and part of being here by is, I'll be able to go to these kids and tell them, look, it's okay to take risks. Exactly. It's okay to explore and find thyself and empower yourself and that's how you grow. And it's also okay to make mistakes. Yeah, oh yeah. Make mistakes in life, but that's how you grow, that's how you learn and you better yourself. And to not like beat yourself up about it. Exactly. You know, a lot of the times we make this mistake and we give up completely. Yeah, do that all the time. Oh really? Yeah, no, you beat yourself up. Yeah. But like I said, just having that mentality which is never giving up and just staying strong, you'll get through those times. Exactly. And they are good times, they are good times, they are great times. So you will get there. I wanted to actually, this is again off topic, characteristics that you've learned, you know, from being in the organization because hearing you talk, the one thing that came to mind was patience which is so difficult. What other things have you picked up that one needs to again, to develop thyself? Characteristics we need to have in order to keep pushing and to reach our property goal? I think one of the important things is having support or seeking support and help. Yeah. You can't do all this thing by yourself. Yeah. Unfortunately, I've tried, I've been a very independent person myself, that's how I grew up. But, you know, seeking help doesn't make you feel weak. Exactly. That also part of empowering yourself because you can go to someone who is more experienced who also has had those sort of challenges and speak to them and get support from them. So I've learned that yeah, support is something that's very important. Yeah. Not to keep to yourself, it's good to ask for advice, it's good to ask for help. You know, mentoring I think is something that's very, very vital. When you're in your varsities, when you're in your high school, even when you're working. Right. So yeah, I think that's one of the lessons that I really learned is the support is very important. Sorry, listening to you speak brings up all these gems because I literally, you know what I, because now I feel like giving the youth advice, I'm ready. Another thing is that we don't, there are mentors everywhere we go.  You could be the next mentor for someone else. And every space that you're in, there's someone who can mentor you. You know, it's just about asking for help. And we're so afraid to do that because also, you know, there's ego. Yeah, I mean, it's not even just about asking, it's also having access to such people. And what the organizers want to provide, we provide sort of events where we put your CEOs of these large companies, you know, people who are in high profile business and put them in that same room with you. Exactly. And you're able to meet and interact with them. And that's how you also get mentorship, you know, that's how you build relationships. And like I said, it's about putting yourself out there. So there's no, you say you don't have a mentor, but you're not there out seeking for a mentor. Exactly, exactly. And it's a trial and error thing.  And it's a trial and error thing. Exactly. And the more people you meet, the more likely you get. Seek and you shall find. Before I get to my last question, I just want to say again, once again, thank you to properties.com. We are in Santan Hotel Apartments for giving us this beautiful space. I mean, the view behind us, city of gold, literally definition of Egorli. So to me, we spoke a lot about people, you know, short-term, long-term goals. And I know that you're working towards something which is amazing. You've got your end goal. What would you say is your short-term goal? My short-term goal now is to sell a lot of properties. And that's not so fair. You know, in the real estate. Yeah, I mean, look, like you said, I've just been two years in here. I've learned a lot of people who've been here for five, six, eight years, and how successful they be. So I'm short-term, medium-term, is to be a really successful real estate agent. I think especially in that sector, we don't get a lot of young people in it. True, true. So I want to give that sort of different feel, different diversity, you know. You know, there's just a reboot in that industry and just put that young element into it. But yeah, just to be successful in the real estate agency, as well as just get my qualification and be a principal estate agent.  These young real estate agents doing the things. So yes, you know, you did say, oh yes, a lot of the young estate agents are popping up, which is amazing. And because you work with a lot of young people as well, you know, in the organization, what is some of the feedback that you get from the grade 11s and 12s when you're done working with them? Yeah, look, positive feedback. I think, like I said, these people are curious beings and I think when they see opportunity ideas, they feel really appreciated. We also target, you know, not just any schools, like underprivileged schools as well, when they don't have access to such. And we do our presentations there. So we get to reach out to them and I feel like being able to get out there and stuff is, they appreciate it a lot. So they want to do a lot more with us, which is good. But also just in the real estate agent space as well, because as you say, a lot of them are popping up. So I was fortunate enough to be in the real estate industry summit and a lot of people really watched that show and I got approached by people in that industry who are saying, you know, how can you, you know, build that sort of awareness and build that sort of interest in that sector for young people. So I'm talking to a lot of people who are, you know, asking for my input and how they can in their sort of sectors and where they are be able to build that interest for young people. So I think the feedback is good. We are a fairly young organization, but we do want to grow and big and just, you know, reach out to the rest of the country. We currently operate in Cape Town and in Joburg, but we want to, you know, in future be in Durban and put Elizabeth in the Northwest, you know, all these other people and just reach out because I really think there is a need for this. So yeah. If anything, it's great that they're curious, you know, there's interest. There's interest. There's hope and I think hope is so, that word hope is so important because a lot of, like you say, you know, you work in underprivileged communities and a lot of these kids come from homes where we lose hope. Exactly.  I can reach them. They're valid. Yeah, they're valid. And also just on that note of short-term goals and long-term goals, right, you have a long-term goal.   You're right.  Yeah. So long-term goal is financial freedom, is your generational wealth, is leaving a legacy. I think I like using the example of, you know, like the Mahbunin Precinct and how they've developed in the city of Joburg.   So one of my very big ambitious sort of goals is to redevelop CBD of Joburg and to become, you know, sort of that hub, that metropolitan, you know, you know, good access to accommodation offices, transport, that it's safe as well. Those are the sort of things that, you know, I want to look into doing. So that's sort of like my long-term goal. But yeah, the main thing of it is just leaving a legacy. I like that. I also like that you've got a kind of province that you're focusing on and this is your goal. Your goal is here. And yeah, and again, you know, valid, your dreams and your goals are valid, too, my love. Thank you. I wanted to talk a little bit more about, because we still, I want to play a little game with you. You know, time is also getting coming to us. You know, I know that you've only been in the real estate industry for about two years now. Actually, before I even ask that question, you started during the pandemic. What, I know that it was obviously a very difficult time to start, right? So looking at when you started to now, let's talk about that journey and is it better? Has it improved? Are you more excited about being in this industry now? How is that, that shift? Yeah, so like, yeah, I did start right in the heat of a pandemic, which was crazy. It's a crazy thing to start something telling you at that time, and it was difficult. And I think as well in the property, in the real estate industry, a lot of times you learn as you go. And if you're not exposed to the day-to-day operations of real estate, then you're not learning. So it's more about taking initiative yourself and finding ways on how to sort of, you know, learn the industry and grow. And going into the following year, I mean, things are a lot better. But I've also seen how the industry itself has evolved because of the pandemic. You know, a lot of things which were impossible to do can now happen online. You know, I mean, one of the important thing about my industry is meeting people face-to-face. When you wanna buy a property oriented, you obviously wanna have a look at it. So what happens when now you're not able to do that? Does now everything stop? But no, there's been very good initiatives like your virtual tour, 3D sort of videos that you get on your listings. Now people can look through that. We've now made paperless contracts now that you can sign. So you no more have to sign things, you can all be sent online. So there's been a very big shift technologically, which has been good, which has been needed. And yeah, but it's been much better. I think now that things have been better, it's been more of a learning curve. Because now when I'm seriously into the industry and learning about it, and I think I've been doing pretty well. And I'm sure you're learning new things every day because you come from working from home, working from behind the screen, to finally being on the ground. And you're obviously learning things about yourself as well. Exactly. What is it that this job has taught you about yourself? That I'm not as patient as I thought I was. No, look, it's a patient game. Yeah. You know, it's a very demanding job as well. I operate in the Bryson and Rosebank area, but sometimes I meet clients from Boning, Cosmo in Ranberg. So it's diversifying, be able to be accessible. And I think communication as well is very important in the line of business. And yeah, that's the big thing about us, especially closing the deals. And yeah, being informative as well, being with the current times, especially now with the markets, obviously the markets now haven't been how they are because of the pandemic. So it's trying to understand those things as well. So yeah, but it's a patient game, it's a very demanding game, but I love my job. So I don't mind working Monday to Monday. You don't mind teaching yourself to be patient. I don't mind teaching myself to be patient. I don't mind learning these things. Exactly. I like that. I want to find out a little bit, let's take it back to our first-time home buyers, you know, those new property investors who are trying to take that leap of faith and make that move.  What were some of the mistakes that you think first-time home buyers should look out for? Yeah, no, I think what comes to mind is the terms of the affordability, right? You know, of affording the home, how, if you afford it or not, I think one very good advice is to always have a pre-qualification. Oh yeah. And I say this because I'd be going to a viewing on one of the properties that you're interested in and it's worth two million and you're happy, you're excited and you want a sign and then when it comes to that, we find out that you can't afford. You know what I mean? So I think it's very important to get a pre-qualification, know what you can afford. Another mistake is when you're buying a home, you're not just, the listing price is not your only expense, right? There's transfer costs. There's attorney costs. When you own a home, you need to pay rates in Texas per month. You need to pay levies. So you need to know all those things as well to take account for your affordability, right? If you have one million in the bank, you don't need to buy one million right now. Because there's those expenses. So that's another mistake that they make. They buy a home and they find out that rates are this much and then they can't afford it. So that's also very important. Also, do your due diligence. I think when looking and buying a home, don't just view it once or twice and then you're ready to buy it. Go for the first time or the sixth time. It's very important, especially when you're buying your older homes as well. Do your checks. It's highly advised. Once you get that home with those issues, it becomes your problem now.  It's now your home. You need to deal with it. So that's one of the sort of mistakes that people make. They just go run into it and then they end up having these issues that were there before. And yeah, I think those are some of the mistakes that come into my mind. I think the other thing is also, first time buyers going into investing, again, it's important to do your due diligence. There's no point in investing in a home and it's running at a loss because now your rental is not low enough, right? You need to make sure you do that homework. It needs to be worthwhile for you, especially when you're going to investing. So yeah. All I heard was you need to have patience. You need to have patience. I think what we repeat quite often on the show is that property is not a short term. It's not a short term. It is a long haul thing. Take your time with it, even if it's your first home or if it's your first investment and you're right, be smart about, do your own research. Take the time to take that step and go do your own research. I love the fact that you brought in first time investors as well because there are a lot of times when first time home buyers automatically become investors, exactly. My question is the pros and the cons of purchasing your first home. Also some advice for some of our first time buyers or first time investors that are watching. Sure. So like I said, one of the biggest cons is property is expensive. Yes, yes, yes. So going into investing as in, it is, you need a lot of capital but there are ways around it, of course, especially with your mortgage bonds and your essay home loans, there are opportunities as well to be able to afford that. Right. And I mean, another coin again is, like we said, it's not a short-term thing, it's a long-term thing, so they need to be patient. When you think about investment, it's not a quick, in a month, you'll get all your returns from your investment. It takes time. So when you're investing in your rental, for example, you only realize sort of good returns after a year or after two years. Yeah. Right? But there's also a lot of work around that as well.  So there's a lot of work into it. But pros is like I said, investing in property, even if you're not investing, even if you're just buying home to settle in, it's an investment. Yeah. It's lower volatility. You know, when your economy goes down, most of the time, they still keep their prices. So whether you're investing or it's your property, it's a good investment sort of strategy. Another pro as well, I mean, this is obviously in terms of buying versus rental. Yeah. Is, I see it this way, when you buy a home, right, and you pay your bond, that's sort of like you pay rent anyways for your own home. Yeah. But like that money is towards your investment. Exactly. It's not towards someone else's. So I think that's one of the big plus of actually owning and sort of renting. But yeah, my advice is, I keep mentioning is always do your research. If you're speaking to a real estate agent about purchasing, speak to more real estate agents. I think a lot of the time, people don't even realize is when you are a buyer and you're making a business with a real estate agent, their primary client is the seller. Yeah. Right? And they wanna get that house sold as soon as possible. As possible, yeah. And so a lot of the, how do I say it, sort of like the customer interaction with the buyer is not as great as it should be or they don't provide the necessary information that's needed. So I think it's always important to speak to one or two other real estate agents before you're going to deals. Therefore, just to sort of help your interest into that and sort of safeguard yourself in sort of such transactions. I think that's very important. But yeah, do your research and make sure you afford as well. And yeah, I think that's sort of the advice you can give to them. I think this also goes hand in hand with some of the mistakes that you've seen. You know, to take note of what Tumelo said and then listen to the mistakes and then go find out how we can make that better. Exactly. Tumelo, because of time, I have a quick game, but before I even get to the game, Black Friday's coming up, right? If there was anything, any single thing in the world that you would like to be a part of the Black Friday deal, what could that be? It's a PlayStation 5. A PlayStation 5? Yes. I need that. Really? I need it. Not even like a house. A house for Black Friday? Yeah, what if they put like a property up and they were like, hey, this is a million, but get it today and send them for 500,000. Look, that would be a good investment, better than a PlayStation 5 for sure. But I think Black Friday is such an impulse thing. Like I said, you can't have impulse buys, especially with property. Yeah, can we get the PlayStation 5? We have it here for you. Thank you. Thank you guys. We don't. But yeah, so Black Friday is an impulse thing. True. You're gonna get the deal now, it's something that you haven't planned for, so you don't wanna do such impulse buys in terms of property. So that's why I shy away from that. Oh yeah. That's actually a very good point. Definitely, for my mental health. Also, for my mental health. So tomorrow the game goes like this. We have another show part of our podcast, which is the Home Shopper Show, posted by Chad, that's every Monday and Friday at 8 p.m., little marketing there. So basically how the show works is, how this game works, sorry, is I'm gonna show you three properties that they've been to around Johannesburg. You said you're in the Bryanston area, it's Bryanston four ways. That's the only clue I'm going to give you. It is in the north of Johannesburg. All you have to do is guess the price. Or be within like very close range of the price. Okay, come. Interesting game. Very interesting. The first one. A minute of it, right? Yeah, give you a minute. Yeah, no, that's just grass. Okay, it's like a question place. It's quite big. Tell us more about what you're saying. I mean, I'm calculating, I'm calculating. I think I have a price. You have a price already? Yeah. Let me show you the bathroom. No, let's trust you. Hold on, let me check the price. Okay, this is in Blair Ethel. Blair Ethel, oh, wonderful. Yeah, it's a big property. Looks like it's got a big yard as well. Lot of rooms, question and feel. I'm guessing along between 10 million to 12, so I think 12 million is the more, yeah, I'll go with that. Very close, it's 13. Very close, I mean, if you get all three. I just threw the garden, by the way. All these stores, the garden, that's great. If you get all three right, we might get you a PlayStation 5. Oh, yes, let's do this. Okay, your next one. Oh, wait, let me just get the price away. Okay. It's an apartment. This one is in Hyde Park. This one, I definitely need to see inside. Yeah. Okay, Hyde Park. Okay, it's big, that's good. I think I have a price. Can I ask how many bedrooms it is, though? No. The only clue I'm giving you is the area. I think it's a two-bedroom. If it is in Hyde Park, 8 million, seven. Oh my God, that's so close, it's nine. 9.3. Let me quickly get you. It was a three-bed, three-bar. Three-base, yeah, I would have gone higher. Oh, you would have gone higher. I would have gone higher, so I said two-bed, one-bed, it's around eight, seven. Okay, next one. River Club Santon. Oh, what? Do you know that? Of course. You know it very well, I'm assuming. I'm assuming my job. Okay, let's go. You can actually just do the first few seconds. Cool. It goes through the whole house. Okay. River Club Santon. It looks like a, it's not a sectional title, okay? River Club, no? Yeah. It's a, I don't know how many rooms it is as well. I'll tell you. This time I can give you a clue of the rooms. Okay, the rooms. Okay, so I've given you the area, the rooms, I'll tell you. So this one, it's a mansion, okay? It's a five-bed, five-bath. Five-bed, five-bath, okay. Contemporary-styled River Club Santon. It's a tough one, actually. So at first I thought it was a sectional, but it looks like it's in an estate. Five-bed, five-bath. I think I'm gonna go for six. No. No. I will give you one more chance. Oh, okay. So it's a higher? Yeah, yeah. It's more higher. Okay, so. Not too high? Yeah, so I think it's your 9 million, 10 million. Yeah, 8.9. 8.9. Well done. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. I think I did well for the next one that I saw. Yeah, and for just knowing the area. Yeah. A lot of first-time home buyers or first-time investors, I think what I'd like for you to end of the show with is tips. Since we've just looked at property and, you know, you look at the amount of bedrooms, you look at the structure, you know. What are some tips to look for when browsing your first home? For sure. So, I mean, you've probably heard this before about location, location, location. Yes, yes. That's your ultimate thing. And I mean, obviously, most of the things is based on preference, but ideally the big ones are your kitchen. So your kitchen size and kitchen design, your bathrooms and what they have. So some may have both a shower and a bath, just the bath or just the shower. Yeah. And if it's on suite or not, storage space, which is very important. So it's your wardrobes as well as in your kitchen, those sort of areas. And I think your extra space is like your home offices as well, especially in these times, sometimes very important for people to look into that. But yeah, it depends. If you're looking in an apartment or you're looking at a home that has a garden, there's sort of different factors you need to look into, right? But yeah, it's mostly what it offers. If it's a house with a yard, does it have a pool, does it have a garden and can you be able to maintain that garden? Exactly. That's another thing as well. And if it's apartments, your vantage point, your balcony area where it's facing, it's not facing another building. Right. Those sort of things. So those are the kind of things that you need to look at. Notes to take, you know, take notes guys. Some of the notes, a long list, but yeah. Thank you so much Tamilo. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate that you took the time out and spent the day with us and shared your knowledge. I think it's so important, you know, you're continuing to do what you do at the organization, pass on this knowledge, you know. Share the tips and the tricks of the property industry that we're in because it can get a little bit difficult and daunting. It's such a daunting task and you've just made it a little bit easier. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. You know, thank you for having me. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. I love platforms like this again to spread awareness about this and I'm definitely for it and yeah. Thanks. Sure. Thank you so much. To our viewers at home, thank you so much. We'll see you guys again next week live. That's Wednesday at 8 p.m. Take care.


The next question, who's got a question? Vinny, currently I'm a fundamentals trader. Usually trade the fundamentals sentiments, quick change, is there any way I can get entry through help of AlgoBox? Yes, so if you're a fundamentals trader, let me show you something really cool that we have that you probably don't have in any other room. Now, depending on what you mean by fundamentals, because that's also definitionally challenging because all kinds of people have different meanings for what fundamentals mean. But how about you trade on sentiment? My question back to you, do you trade on sentiment? And how do you get that sentiment? How do you know what the sentiment is based on what instruments you trade? Let me ask that along with that question is, Delitha, what instruments do you trade?  But watch this, sentiment all is the command. We pull this from Twitter traders. As of right now, if you went to our room and typed exclamation mark sentiment, all our sentiments bought, the sentient being that is collecting information off of Twitter based on what people are talking about on Twitter, we literally are parsing the text that we're collecting from as many day traders as are out there claiming themselves to be day traders anyways, and getting positive or negative sentiment value on each instrument that we trade. So you could technically, if you are a sentiment trader, this is technically a fundamental, but I don't see you answering my question back. I feel like I'm having one more conversation here. You asked a question, but this is one way. But as far as how will we help you, first of all, let me tell you a secret number one. Stop trading fundamentals. There's way better ways to trade, bro, if you want to make money. I'm just saying, if you're wanting to trade, day trade, and do this as an income generator versus an investment, then you would probably want to come down here and use the, um, technically we use technical analysis, but it's way more than TA TA. People think I'll draw lines on charts and whatnot, but we've got order flow balanced in with technical analysis and structure and price action all combined, which is why our traders do so much better than most traders. Invest tools. Yeah. Invest tools, man. The 13 points of, uh, fundamentals, trade forex commodities, sentiment, means by fundamental change of the currency, uh, fundamental change of the currency. That's a really weird, that's a really weird way to say that fundamental, a fundamental change of the currency. That's not fundamentals, bro fundamentals is like, um, some underlying reason for why the currency changed because the federal policy on cryptocurrency changed. And therefore, you know, so that's a fundamental, uh, directional change and holding for, uh, depending on what timeframes that you're looking at, but does the system work on forex? Yes.