Good morning, we're gonna go ahead and get started for those of you not with new America and who don't know me My name is a we stay you but I am the deputy director of the fellows program here at new America And we're delighted to welcome you here today and to welcome back Alexis ok. Well one of our national fellows with the fellows program who joined two years ago for her book launch For those who don't know the new America Fellows Program brings on thinkers Journalist producers practitioners and scholars whose work enhances the public conversations about some of the most pressing issues of our day In an age where journalism is dominated by the 24-7 new cycle and academia is becoming ever more esoteric Esoteric our fellowships provide opportunities for talented individuals who need support to pursue more ambitious endeavors books films photo essays Long-form storytelling policy projects are some of the projects that we've supported over the years And these are works that help to broaden To get gets to brought audiences and changes the way we think Voices that represent the diverse backgrounds and ideologies of the American community We're also happy to be partnering today with the international reporting project a program that joined new America last year And Alexis was a fellow also with IRP and actually was in Nigeria reporting from there in 2012 And so I'm safe to assume that some of the reporting that you did there made it into the book We're thrilled to welcome Alexis here today her book a moonless starless sky ordinary women and men fighting extremism in Africa Is a product of five years of living and reporting within Africa? Alexis's work focuses on four narratives that intricately come together to create a powerful image of modern Africa Today she's being joined by Karen Atiyah No, there. Yes, the global opinions editor for the Washington Post and without further ado Please join me in welcoming Alexis and Karen First of all, thank you guys Take a break from the new cycle lately to come and talk about a Continent that I've personally been very passionate about in my career as well and to be able to talk to a friend of mine actually On her book, which I'm extremely proud of you for so this is this is a real honor So again, thank you guys for having me So I guess to start off with I mean Personally, I couldn't put this book down I think Alexis what you did and this is character driven. This is the human driven and You really connect to the characters. You want to know what happened to them You want to know about their desires or likes their conflicts their their choices I think and this is really about like ordinary people having to make Extraordinary choices given to the circumstances that they're in As I was just said it took you five years to live and report this Can you talk a little bit about even what made you decide to put these stories together and a little bit about that process of Finding these people and how you got access Yeah, I mean I think the reporting for this book really kind of started in 2012 With the first story in the book About a couple in Uganda who are both kidnapped by the LRA rebel group But it was about two years later when I was reporting on the Cheabot kidnapping in northeastern, Nigeria that I began to realize that the kind of stories I was choosing and Reporting were following a specific kind of pattern they were usually about people who found themselves in extreme situations and how these situations Affected them how it changed them and and how usually the people in these situations rose to the occasion in different ways and chose to Preserve their lives or fight back in a variety of ways And so once I realized this pattern and began to think about the way extremism in Africa was covered, which I felt was often About about the nature of radicalism, but also trying to understand the perpetrators trying to understand extremist groups who were Who were responsible for this which is important to understand but With these kind of stories I felt like the people who were experiencing this were often painted as victims simply or people who were suffering and What I found is that in these situations people are often resisting in different ways that they weren't just passive like living through war and living through terrorism that they were that they were trying to Fight back in different ways whether it was something as avert as activism or something as subtle as Trying to play basketball in a place where You were threatened with death for Playing basketball as a teenage girl and so all of these things attracted me and Once I found the people I wanted to focus on It was then about convincing them to let me into their lives and follow them around for periods of time and tell their stories and so That that that was the hardest part, but it did work out I have to say I think out of All these places, you know, I think the most dangerous were working in northern northeast Nigeria and Somalia Somalia was the most difficult because it's an act of war zone but You know, my goal was was trying to be as close to the subject as possible and give a sense of their lives We talk about Maybe pink like a character just to give a snapshot of of one of the stories. I mean Maybe I don't know. I'm sure you love them all like you don't have a favorite child per se But like maybe to chat about what which story or which character would save your favorite and most interesting to follow Well, I think You know one story that I had been wanting to do for a long long time was about Teenage girls who play basketball in Somalia despite threats to their lives You know, I'd seen a photo as a essay of them several years earlier or photos It's some of them and I was just struck by the fact that these teenage girls were playing the sport in a country where Because of increasing racism increasing conservatism It was taboo just women to put on pants and wear shirts and pick up a ball And yet they were doing it anyway and the main character that I focused on My name is Aisha had been threatened at good point. She had received death threats on the phone. So had her mother And yeah, she wasn't trying to be an activist. She just wanted to live her life She wanted to go go to the court and play and see her boyfriend and go out at night and And that was kind of thing that that impressed me so much through the book is he's kind of ordinary In rare acts of bravery, you know, not not trying to be a hero or like a model for women But just trying to live her life amid this Extreme situation And so I thought her story was incredible. I mean You know contrast that with someone Else like an activist named Biram who's an anti-slavery activist in Mauritania where slavery still widespread You know, he he's a very radical person, you know, he's been jailed several times he You know was people crowds were chanting for his death after he'd burned holy books of Islam that Imams and Plotiginous country used to support slavery and so I was just struck. Yeah by the very bravery of all these people and the lengths they went to I Wanted to know how about access so particularly perhaps martinia for instance where It's been known that Reporting or writing about slavery is very touchy again I mean, this is a country where doing so very heavy Punishment's heavy also cultural taboo. So how did how did you even get around and get people to trust you in order to tell Those stories. I mean, I think in each case It was about the people I was working with I think, you know in Mauritania, I Immediately linked up with activists. I was working on and the people around him and then that facilitating meeting other people because Interestingly enough, even though they were antagonistic to the government they they were they were familiar with the people in the government who and so it was situation where once I Became close with many of my subjects. I was often able to get some people around them even those who might have been in opposition to them You know the same in In Northeast Nigeria where I'm writing about a vigilante group who's fighting Boko Haram and My access to them was through my main character who was one of the leaders of the group And once I got him to trust me and let me in and then I was able to kind of get Far as trusting you, I mean you're You're a Nigerian descent, obviously Like me and my parents are gunning and Nigerian, but I grew up here in the States How much of getting people to trust you even just like navigating these worlds? Do you think had to do?  I mean you talk about in the beginning of the book how much of this for you is also discovering your own roots I think your own background Well, I mean I found that like in several interviews some of my subjects Either indirectly or directly they did say that they felt some kind of kinship because even just for our shared skin color and then you know and finding about my heritage that also kind of What was disarming at some point at least broke down one of the several barriers you have to break down in order to get your subject To trust you I think it was helpful in doing that and I think that you know through my years reporting in Africa It's also been an evolution to myself kind of realizing both how African and American I am because I kind of say when I'm on the continent. I never realized how more American I am and then when I'm here I never realized how Yeah, and so I mean did you feel like I mean you ever feel like particularly as maybe also a woman like reporting in Your places, especially where male dominated like how did that how did you navigate that as well? Yeah, and then a lot of places I reported heavily patriot patriarchal societies heavily religious societies But I mean I was impressed that I was treated with a lot of respect I did I think have a greater level access because even though I was a woman I was foreign and so that kind of enabled me to Occupate occupy kind of third category And so yeah Yeah, so one thread so I want to talk about Like love will come back to love later Loving romance, I guess like in the time of extremism.  Right, but but one thing that I guess struck me a bit with the Nigeria Northeastern Nigeria chapter and the Somalia chapter is in Situations of extremism when the you have these radical groups that are wreaking havoc on Population you have a situation where The people don't also don't trust perhaps the military trust In my case the government right so So elder right the the character that you follow in Part of the civilian joint task force in Nigeria the vigilante group. I guess them and I'll read it page You say you're right for the young men joining the group The vigilante group was a way to reclaim a sense of power after so much had been lost relatives friends schools a viable future Said his parents were happy that he volunteered but he recognized that so much of my do-go-re was wary of the civilian force because it Was imposing its own law and order And he says they say see the civilian JTF. They're doing bad things. They act as if We're useless or up to no good. They should be praying to us The civilian task force every day. So like I guess to me it's the so-called good guys, right? or the ones who are tasked with having to Help combat these forces, especially when there's a lack of trust in the military for the lack of trust in face of Malia in the Regional players you got in the United States that are also have their own agendas in Somalia I mean can you talk a bit more about that one? It's these These when you're on think you're doing the right thing But also the JTF was also accused of using child soldiers right and also committing atrocities alongside the military, so I guess a bit more about that thread of you know This sort of nuance is about who is good and who is bad. Yeah. Well, I mean one thing I Discovered again while reporting this book and then I hope comes clear is that there aren't any pure good guys or purely bad guys The ones who try to do good sometimes do bad and that happens a lot with with with elder the The man who's who helped start the vigilante group in northeast Nigeria He did have good intentions. He wanted to protect his family his community By back against a terrorist group, but during that process He became you know somewhat morally compromised and it was something you can never fully admit to itself But I could tell that he was struggling within moments. He actually what sat me recently and he said that They've committed to stop using children. So I was like great So Yeah, I mean it's it's yeah, it's something that I Definitely wanted to make clear because sometimes in these narratives. It could be easy to flatten the stories of people and kind of Say they're heroes and that you know We just look up to them and they're perfect But you know who is and so even though a lot of things I admire about them I thought it was important to be honest about the same Yeah I guess in the very first part you have Bosco and and Bosco they've both been kidnapped by the LRA Almost similar to like when women are kidnapped Boko Haram or any real radical radical group or a terrorist group used as Like force to follow the man forced to marry you're forced to very often raped and all that um And it was striking that Bosco thinks he loves you like sees her and like immediately is starting to think about his future with her But then yet he rapes her right in the first encounter and she's afraid of him for a long time But then eventually they begin to Kind of come together and realize that they're In the client can you talk a little bit about that like Bush wise Bush husbands and choices about love Yeah, I mean that was definitely One of the most difficult stories I've ever reported in a written because it's so morally murky. It's so there's so many grays And you know, I remember first talking to those editors years ago and a lot of the editors were just like I don't know what to do with this because because it is difficult, you know, you have Yeah Because I mean this is a story It's a couple that both the man and the woman were abducted as children so the man to be a child soldier the woman to be essentially a sex slave when they were both teenagers and After years of being in captivity together having children together making a life together They both escaped and the woman decided to reunite with him after he escaped and tried to make a life together and in this case What happens is I mean and her community and her family are upset by this they don't understand it but in her case Loving him and choosing to be with him as her own active resistance. And so Against what the LRA tried to take from her, you know, they try to take from her and Love and and normalness and so it is a tricky thing to talk about To talk about love in this kind of circumstance because you don't know you can never fully know people's hearts And I did talk to other couples who are in the situation and it was clear There wasn't love there and that their other mitigating factors had forced other couples to reunite But what drew me to this couple was that they were both Reflective and that they both thought about what their lives would have been like had they never met and and and the you know The taboos of it and why they were drawn to each other And so in this case, I just had to let simply let them tell their own stories I try not to judge. I try not to bring my own kind of you know Where you were when I think one of the characters said like she was in love and you were you at least acknowledge that you were Skeptical Is it really yeah, but then yeah, but then later she says oh well, maybe it wasn't quite You didn't know what love was that's right. Yeah, that was of another couple right? Yeah, exactly So it's like it is it is hard. I mean it's in with the coverage of the two-butt girls. I remember a Lot of sort of bath flash when like headlines would say I'll Boko Haram is marrying off these girls. These are wives and people would say no absolutely not These are children. They're sex slaves, but to a certain extent that does also sort of just flatten The narrative and implying perhaps and to realize that it's more complicated Yeah, well, I mean I yeah, I mean I definitely do agree with those girls. I mean yes that they're sex slaves I think what but the complexity comes later is Is in this case when she's you know, she's telling me her story and she's telling me the evolution from the relationship to what started out as one of Being forced to be with this man and then choosing to be with him And so that I wanted her to tell her Let people make up their own moral decisions so Yeah, when it comes to decisions one thing I think you see very well in the book is in the part like you have part one and Part two but at the end of part two like each of the characters the very end Each of the characters the very end they have they're left with them making this Choice like some whether it's to jump from Boko Haram or the wrong to burn The Koran right and it was just really it was really striking the way you did that because it really reinforced Oh, I was kind of a two-year-old adventure type of cliffhanger like you know, what comes next what comes next, but I think Again reinforcing that these people are having to make extraordinary choices life or death choices Was that intentional? Yeah, it was because you know again, you know people sometimes ask why I was drawn to such extreme situations And it's not because I'm like an adrenaline junkie, and I like to want to see war or conflict Yeah, you're like totally chill Like I don't always know fans They're like you don't always try to get like this work or like right, you know But I'm drawn to like what extreme situations Due to people and and how it affects their decision-making a what kind of choices they may or You know or how they grow into themselves or don't and so I that's what I'm drawn to I'm drawn to like how people respond when they're in the middle of these really radical Circumstances and so that's why yeah, I tried to kind of show at those moments Perhaps some of the biggest decisions they had made in their lives Or so, I'm curious. I mean I take like books to be sort of like curated mediums effects and stories and Characters that you pick so I'm curious about what didn't make it in the book like where they're perhaps countries or or extreme situations that you considered but then perhaps maybe it's not like Vocal Rom or LRA, but maybe it's like nomadic the like conflicts between nomadic tribes and like the middle belt of Nigeria or There's a master next one just like One was I Would have stemmed from a story I've already written About an orchestra in the Congo Because the Congo I was drawn to it because so it's extreme and it's broken Dateless and it's broken government And the state is broken government that to me is an extreme situation because what I find interesting about the Congo is how people respond to that kind of devise their own ways of Being and living and provide for themselves. And so what drew me to that story on many years ago Because it was but it's about this orchestra conductor who Who creates his own orchestra? It's purely self-taught sort of all those musicians and it's it's a way to It's a way of him creating art train appreciating appreciation for art in a place where there's no support from that from the state from any kind of You know Societal entity and so I was drawn to him and and what he was doing and I want to explore it further But he I just couldn't get further access because he told me he was writing his own book We're there So working in media We often hear and I'm sure you that was this before reporting we often hear like Stories about Africa. Yeah, don't tell or there's a certain pattern or a way or lens with which we approach Africa that That editor that you're filing to back home Was it difficult to get? Publishers to agree to this book like how how is it? What was that like? There was the getting a portion of the book was way easier than selling any of my freelance articles and I was freelancing And maybe it's because of though of that freelance experience because when I was freelancing from the continent I felt like the bar was always so much higher for getting stories accepted. And so I started to realize what kind of stories Would sell and how that intersected my own interests, you know I if I'm writing about something or someone it, you know, it has to be someone who's Extraordinary is someone who's doing something, you know, really? at at a bar higher than maybe we have for other places in the West and so And and that was something I was drawn to anyway. And so I think then when I was pitching this book idea There there was there was an appetite for it Yeah, and it was it was pretty easy to tell it but but it probably came from that experience of like Well that and I would and it's still sad to say there's still a very much like a lack of humanizing work I would say about I think that's true for like newspapers and media, but like about Africa So, I mean you talked about like stories your patterns of Africa's talked about but like your mind were you setting out to try to Change that like that part of why you wanted to do this And then I guess also in that vein like what would you be hoping to see more of as far as changing? Or improving reporting about Africa Yeah, I mean that's something that's always on my mind even when reporting stories from the continent is How to humanize stories how to comment characters from a place of empathy as opposed to pity How to just How to show the the the nuances of Africans the interiority I feel like is so often missing when we're reading about When we're reading about Africa we're reading about Africans so that is always on my mind And I've got something I wanted to show here and I think it's something that I want to see more of I mean I would love to see more journalists from the diasque African diasque reporting on the continent because I do think it does Bring a much-needed perspective. I think that there's just something about having journalists from NASCAR going, you know bringing You know bringing a Western perspective, but then also I think a lot of times a much-needed Relatability a much-needed empathy with the people they're writing about not seeing them as so foreign so alien and that reflects I think in the writing. Yeah, I think that's definitely true like again similar backgrounds and very similarly like I became interested in Africa because I felt like the narratives out there were so flat and so two-dimensional and Frankly sometimes flat-out racist, right? And so you sort of have this Obligation to like try to do something to correct that. I remember I went to a African student association gathering a couple of years ago or something and There's a bunch of students you know students who are in the room and How many of you think that coverage about Africa stories or narratives about Africa or fair and are Accurate and like, you know, nobody That was like, yeah, okay. Okay. I was like, all right fine. How many of you want to be journalists? Maybe like one or two like change like raise their hand. It's like, okay How many of you want to be lawyers? That I know I'm I don't I don't mean to scare the side, but it's like this it's For me like you have to get in the game like it's kind of like for for the diaspora I keep telling people like just start writing like start telling the story Yeah, you want to see like nobody else is going to do it for you and if they do do it for you and they do it like not the way you would like I Mean again, that's not to say that there aren't barriers and challenges plenty we can talk for another hour about like the sort of structural issues of How like getting into media, but it's I think again, that's why it's so inspiring just you do this to show that like it can be done and it's You do have again this sort of you understand the American audience who understand sort of what will relate back home, right? But then also when people see you had the same experience.   So I Definitely would be on that like to try to get more more of us not only writing books, but also on panel and also and also just You know particularly here in DC to be because narratives are not just about having their stories Journalism, but it's about like how it influences So even in that and I'd be curious if you're playing to the crowd in DC if you think that what you learn from your reporting and from your writing has any sort of policy implications right because you hear so much about countering violent extremism we hear so much about like what does it mean to counter radicalization like he said so like just focus on the group who are doing it but like How from DC you're or Africa policy or even NGOs like what do you think you've learned that I mean it's a bit of a difficult one because You know this this book is obviously it's not about policy, but one thing I One thing that helped me when I was reporting each story is that I was usually not every time But going in with a local organization Native to that country that was working on Whatever conflict or extremist forces going on and often the organization was not really that well supported doing things kind of low key on the ground and I think that and You know usually the efforts That supposedly from the top down from the government that was supposed to be countering these forces Where the funds were either going missing or it was completely it was a sham or as useless and it's again, it's just this idea of like supporting local actors from the ground up because and a lot of these places even if even though there's a veneer or a facade of legitimacy the governments weren't doing much Or they were corrupt Compromise and that's like a Perennial problem. I mean just I got in as far as like the ask for voices to keep crying and saying there are vocal groups on the ground that are doing this work That funding or intention doesn't of course there are the large organizations a lot more resources and a lot more sort of exposure but as far as Sorry Where you know the government would kept repeating this line like slavery no longer Is this it's banned will jail jail slave owners, but still actually supporting it So the main group fighting them because they weren't able to get registered by the government was not eligible for Any kind of international funding didn't have any support. They were barely surviving on donations And yet this was the group responsible for getting slave on a stone in jail for freeing slaves And barely surviving on the shoe string Now in the organization So I'm curious although, okay, I know I guess about like activism and Sort of what's going on I would say even in the West like when it comes to Resistance Maybe we've seen a lot more People are wondering how do we organize how do we protect protect access to contraception? How do we protect any sort of progress that's been made on? Voting rights or Police brutality that sort of thing and again, I know it's not at all to compare what's coming on in Uganda There's some all it's what's going on in the States or in Europe, but like There any sort of lesson that you learned about sort of activism and resistance that you think could be applied I mean, I think well, I mean, I think even though these are exchange situations in some ways They're not so different. I mean what I like to think about is Somalia, right where even apart from the war The way that freedoms for women What that diminished in a way slow slowly but also so rapidly, you know at one point women are Going around and their hair uncovered wearing afros wearing whatever they want and then within a few years, you know, they're It's almost taboo not to not to cover themselves not to Not to go out, you know, not to go outside and and play sports and what was striking to me is the way still some women spoke out despite Despite risk to them or despite the fact that things could become uncomfortable for them And even now we're still doing that and it just I don't know just struck me the way that The freedoms that people can take for granted as is happening here can disappear so rapidly and it depends on How people respond how people resist what they do to hold on to those freedoms and if they can And I think and and in the aftermath, how do you deal with it? You know in the case of Somalia Some some some young women are trying to live their lives anyway and do those things they used to do But at great risk to themselves. What are we willing to do here? How are we willing to resist and you know, what we do on the aftermath? Will we just go along with it or will we try to fight back and it's different shades, right? It's obviously like a certain extent probably anywhere like a certain just like basic level of self-care like just You know something happens like a Charlottesville and You just have you just tell people at the very basic level just not to shut everything off But like to continue doing the things and living your life like the way you would normally and to just sort of Take care of yourself like find the activities find your happy place basically right as a form of resistance Like all this is the Audre Lorde quote right like self-care like in that sense Of resistance, but then you have like varying shades all the way up to like say a serum where he's Over activism and really sort of consciously thinking about like strategically right like how to organize people But so I just found it even just very striking just especially this book coming out at this time When people are asking questions about like what does modern resistance look like and we're not even in this book You know, we're not even talking about like obviously like social media as much and how although you do mention how people touch on Facebook and things like that, but But I think it sort of carries Circumstances Yeah, exactly So I guess like I just largely I'm kind of like well For you, like are you already are you going you're going back to reporting like are you thinking about like what are your next steps to this book? I know it just came out like You like so what are you doing next but but like Yeah, I mean, I'm still drawn to reporting and writing about extremism, but now I'm trying to Do in my other home Okay, I'm trying to Yeah Well, I mean because it's funny because I've always been drawn to writing about extreme situations elsewhere and now my own country has become an extreme situation Yeah, and so that is In a way still from I think as we're talking about the inside or outside Inside or outside or position where like this is my home, but now going back Especially after so much time abroad So Journalists who are interested in foreign coverage and have been foreign correspondents that sort of almost feel like We've been spending so much time Obviously very Interested in the stories of other people in other countries, but like so much time looking at what's broken in other countries But what's happened over the last year? sort of Woken people up to like what's broken here and what's extreme here or what's the possibilities of extremism here So like there are others like I think it's time for me to come back Build to make sense of what's happening here, which good and bad it can also mean that the US or the West will be inward-looking and when it comes to policy or attention on Africa or these issues that you've written about meaning that some of these folks might be even more on their own for better or Yes, we want to go to question And that's just the ones I All right, so I Was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about the strategies people are using to resist extremism From from of those that you saw what do you think was had the most impact? You know on a larger scale and whether it be a small thing or a big thing not the most effective thing, but also the most risky strategy I saw was the story of fear on the anti-slavery axis in Mauritania because The the history of resistance in that country against slavery had been to write petitions and do sort of peaceful rallies and You know write open letters and that got nowhere and so Bairn was like we have to be more radical and so he actually said that he took a lot of his Model from the civil rights movement which was doing sit-ins like in front of police stations until they Arrested the slave owner or or doing protests that oftentimes got violent or forcibly going and getting Going to people's houses and taking away slaves just like direct constant active confrontation with the authorities and so you know as a result He was going to jail multiple times But each he said he liked doing that because each time he got thrown in jail and Joes and other people would ask him Why are you in jail and he he would have to say or the government would have to say Because he was protesting this case of slavery and so that would mean they'd have to acknowledge that something was going on with that and so But it's worked. I mean they freed tens of thousands of slaves. They've gotten the first they won't have thrown in jail You know, it's still an uphill battle, but that kind of direct active confrontation has been the most effective strategy I've seen among activists on the continent Unfortunately a great risk Of course Yeah Making Strategies that are allowed or not allowed Yeah You said before that these are extraordinary people that you're writing about and I wonder if you saw any common threads between them in terms of the types of character traits or something about these people that that kind of tips them over into Taking action where other people in their community aren't or Gives them the wherewithal or the strength or whatever it is that allows them to to take this action that they have any common traits like that Even if they grew up with like single parents or their you know in some cases Their fathers kind of bailed out early they were raised by people by by women and men who supported them and who told them That they could do things like when I was asking a lot of them when they were asking them about what they want to do when they were young A lot of them told me they wanted to be like great figures in our community They want to be someone who was known as helping people in our community or like a doctor or a leader of some house Someone people looked up to and that was how a lot of them thought of themselves as kids You know, this is I'm gonna be someone important. I want to be someone who helps And so and I think in a lot of and that kind of helped I think it went each of these circumstances became more radical became more extreme that that might have triggered something You know, I'm even thinking of I should the basketball player who's not activists at all But like, you know, she saw her mom playing basketball when before the war and her mother always told her You know, you can do what you want You can cover your hair if you want or it don't or you know, and and so I think when things got worse They kind of held that that that thinking inside them about like the role of like religion in my Helping in one way perhaps to like provide strength and stability to the characters with them on the other end if they're sort of resisting against Islamist terrorism or how Islam being warped like that That's actually a good point. I think yeah most of them were considered themselves religious whether Christian or Muslim and that was a steady enforce for them as well a source of ability a source of peace a sort of calm And it helped them. I think see in each case when the religions became warped by how you know the The wide gap And they weren't just gonna go along with like is when the same David Smith of the Guardian I just wondered in your travel. Did you often run into this collision between rights and traditions? So for example when back Obama gave a speech in my road he Talked about, you know, there are good traditions and bad traditions and bad traditions include the oppression of women and female genitals and mutilation But at the same time on the ground obviously one knows Some governments and others try to use this sort of culture arguments and in particular, you know say to the West Don't lecture us about Western values But was that a sort of constant tension and did you reach any conclusions or see any ultimate solutions? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question because I mean, especially I Somalia came to mind when I was talking to People in the government like the Sports Minister or the head of the Olympic Committee.  We can't doesn't look good So this is the community but then when I talked to the actual girls and women, they were like, this is bullshit Okay, so so that kind of solved it for me in in a in a In an indirect way because at least I could you know, I could show what these guys were saying But then also the women and girls were saying like it wasn't always like this and we don't believe that and yes, they're not in the majority but I Mean, I thought it was important to still say to show show, you know, that this is what they believe is what they're saying To kind of get around that because yeah, that cultural argument is prevailing all over the continent, you know But when you think I think when you dig deeper, you realize that not everyone buys into that When you talk about the the leaders of Counting the extremism in the community. How are they? Seen in the community like is there support for that? Movement like this anti-slavery movement or for the girls playing basketball still like how are they viewed within a community for doing network? It depends. I mean, I think it's often very divided, you know, I think like with the anti-slavery activists There are a lot of people who support them, especially Blackmore and Kenyans But then even among that group, there's some who think they're too radical And then in case like some I was a ghostly basketball I mean, you know, I would think a lot of actions won't smile yet Well, I don't say it's my but maybe even Mogadishu Are not quite comfortable with it But that is surprising amount of people were and so yeah, it's often divided. It's not usually like these people are That will support it But what you know, what was nice to see is that they were That there were people who did think they were doing the right thing Like I think it touched on it with Aisha and Somalia as far as like many people Wanting to leave to go through the ropes through Libya to go to Europe Did your characters and if I'm not remembering correctly you can correct me But like your characters ever think about trying to escape the country is trying to leave try to get Asylum or try to go to Europe or like or did they say no, this is my home is my fight I'm gonna stay here. Yeah, I mean most of them said that it was it was really just I shouldn't smile. I don't want to believe Understandably because and it wasn't because she didn't love her country is because I mean it's not like it's just so unsafe I mean her own brother had been killed But most of the rest and this is my home and I want to be here and I want to Be near my family and live my life I think about that especially in the context of like You or some of these countries that are now wanting to like trying to stem the migration crisis Yeah, and then And maybe working with some of these governments to try to improve aid improve things And so that people stay I don't really have necessarily a tie to that but it just brings that like to mind Miracle and my question is on Intergenerational gap Most of African countries just like Central Asian South Asian or Southeast Asian countries are young Right predominantly young. What is the role of all the generation in changing those countries Towards better development and more resistance I mean as an example for instance, and I'm originally from Central Asia All the generation does make an impact when it comes to peaceful development Where it's younger generation. I mean just I guess naturally right a more radical But on the other hand all the generation also Representatives of the older regimes like Soviet regime right so they Still believe that that could be revived and some of the essence of it could be revitalized So positive and negative and in African context What was their role in your experience? Good question. I mean I think yeah, it's kind of like what you experienced they could be Both something that that could drive change but also sometimes hold hold things back I think you know again in the case of Somalia actually the older generation in a very young country had experienced Freedoms and a period of peace of younger generation had never experienced which had only known war And so in some cases they brought that historical knowledge Kind of fuel the resistance in a way because they would tell their children This is how things used to be for women. This is the thing how it used to be before Radclism came about and the children grew up with that knowledge and want a return to that and so In a young place like that it was I think it was nice to have knowledge of what things were like before Especially in a place where it's been two and a half decades of war and and lawlessness I am Joanne Zeltoris I work here at New America Can you talk a little bit more about your writing process both from the narrative side of how you chose to organize your characters and their stories And then also from the most practical side of how you did these reporting trips and wrote this book while also I know writing other stories for the New Yorker Yeah, I mean I think well actually when we first started out I think we had I think I mentioned we had even more stories than were in the book But then we kind of realized if we want to actually fleshed out stories we need to reduce it I think we did it by half and then we didn't want it to be just like story after story So especially when there was a general theme kind of linking them all together at least in my head And so I kind of wanted to have them leave at least together at least at one point So it was possible to see any connections or links between the characters among characters And then yeah writing it while also having a day job that was not easy Yeah, I mean the past two years have been a lot of travel Sometimes I tried to intersect or if I'm going to this place maybe I could try to do a story for the magazine But that didn't usually work out so it was just it was a lot But I think that you know one thing I was aided by is that a lot of these stories did start out in some form some sort of form like before And so at least it wasn't just going into it blind And then even though I had to make several trips after that at least I kind of had like a blueprint of what I was looking for And I had already met every subject or almost every subject Like when you were going back and forth how did you touch the subject? Was it like whatsapp? Yeah, oh yeah whatsapp Facebook Messenger Do any of these folks have I mean obviously Facebook do they have like other forms of I don't know Yeah, or like how they organize I think it's just mostly Facebook I don't know what's that I'm John Pilich I'm with our State Department I'm interested in the time that you were serving reporting out in the field If you saw any actions from our own people our own State Department people or other Let's say other countries diplomatic corps If they have if any episodes took out of positive intervention or engagement during your time Extremism issues if you will You said any positive Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean Well I can't think of one case again with anti-slavery activists in Mauritania There was The US ambassador I know was often kind of working Having often kind of informal Conversations with the Martian government especially when Barron was thrown in prison again and again I know there was someone from I think it was the State Department, the US Department who was often in the prisons in Oaxaca in the capital of Martania Helping to get out activists because they were often arrested for a myriad of like minor Fanes and so I know And I and I think that was helpful in a sense because the thing with the Martian government you can't Confront them directly on these things. They just don't respond or they lie And so I think what was helpful there was that there were western Just so much trying to have informal conversations Trying to advocate on behalf of the exact same On the flip side where they're connected Instances Yeah, I mean I think I just said something you guys probably all know you know In the case of Somalia In Nigeria You know in North East Nigeria US intervention hasn't always been helpful Sometimes counterproductive in the way you know in Nigeria feeling It's tricky because I know the US has tried to help the war against terrorism there And it's had to deal with a government that's not transparent The military that's guilty of several human rights abuses So I don't envy the decision-making there But I think in Somalia it's become very morally marked in terms of who's being funded And what they're doing to fight terrorism there and create a very opposite view Is there anyone more in question? Thinking about the different ways that like terror manifests itself And subsequently how we sort of grieve and mourn the victims of terrorism differently As a result of obviously where they live and I think about your work I think about your colleague Ben Tau's work and how it's illuminating the lives of folks Who are affected by terrorism that we don't often always consider And I wonder for you what is it look like for Because obviously there's like as you eliminate your work Acts of terror and violence happening throughout Africa In ways that never come across You know are not brought to our attention in a meaningful way And so I'm curious what it looks like for you for that work to Is that singularly a failure of media? I'm kind of curious like what sort of like coalescence of factors you attribute The lack of our attention to these issues too And if there are examples of places or people that you think are doing it well And what a better infrastructure for bringing in these issues to people's attention would look like Yeah I mean I think yeah You know especially in the last couple of years I think that disparity has become so obvious As we see western cities and countries Experienced the kind of terrorism that has become almost I don't want to say commonplace But in certain countries on the continent commonplace You know at the same time that there were attacks in Paris You know hundreds of people were being killed at a time In Nigeria or elsewhere But the level of attention the level of empathy was just different And I think there are you know a couple of reasons for that I think one you know when attack happens in the west It isn't common and there is a way that of course Westerners empathize more so with people perhaps who look like them Or have similar experiences with them But at the same time And so and so as a result I think that when terrorists talked about on the continent Because there hasn't been that history of humanizing people on the continent Because the way stories have been approached Oftentimes not always has been to talk about suffering on a mass scale Without talking about individual stories Without talking about how individual people are affected It can just all kind of get clumped together You know when we hear about hundreds of people killed It's almost like passes through our brain And it's one single amorphous figure We can't picture faces, we can't picture families And we can't picture And so that I think is a struggle That is the job of a journalist To make those faces individual So that we can we think about attack in Nigeria We can think about wow a mother and her children And you know maybe she's an accountant And you know the way we talk about the victims of Las Vegas Or other places That's what has been really missing I think when we talk about terrorism on the continent And that's our job, that's our struggle And it's not always easy to get those stories published It's not easy to get those stories assigned And you know Yeah I mean speaking from in the media I mean I'm obviously very adamant I guess As much as I can That like these stories about Africa matter And it's when you say a story matters You're saying these people matter Right And I think yeah just like you said It's there's as far as like use value If something happens it's surprising Or at least it used to be surprising When an attack happened in London or Paris Versus you know Boko Haram say That has been raging since 2009 I mean it was really only when like Cheebaugh happened Right That's when the whole world was like what is Boko Haram? Who is this like And then also I think when Boko Haram started like Capturing territory right Like trying to almost become ISIS And hold territory I would say that And this is not meant to like excuse the shortcomings Of Western media and covering terrorism And violence in the continent When I went to Nigeria I went to Nigeria Northeast Nigeria I went to Guatemala State In 2015 So this is right after This is right when like the military had had success In pushing back Boko Haram And so I wanted I was actually very curious in how like Communities were taking in the IDPs That were coming down from Borno And all of that And I remember I went with a group of Nigerian journalists And many of them had never been to the Northeast Had never Even though like this horrific sort of Terrorism was raging in their country There was almost like Those journalists that were based in Lagos Like almost were also like Innocent, desensitized That didn't make Attacks didn't make headlines Even in their own country And again this is not to sort of excuse Like papering over Or not covering terrorism But I just found it very striking that And that was part of the problem with Boko Haram For a long time That even like the government didn't really want to acknowledge it The government didn't really like downplayed it For a long time And it probably wasn't really until they Bring back our girls and the international That did like the former president Did like Jonathan Wanted to do something about it For this But I think also when it comes to Africa When it comes to Nigeria in particular Just like any war scene in place Like the challenges of trying to get information And the challenges of trying to To get to the North And to access people is hard But again I mean that's our jobs Our jobs are to do the hard things To get those stories But yeah I think part of it is also As far as the stories And I guess for me as an editor Trying to find these stories It's also like what can be done to Strengthen local media And strengthen like local journalists To be able to get the money The access to training To also set those agendas to To report accurately about their own Countries and about what's also happening In In other countries So Yeah it's complex But ultimately we need to do a better job We all need to do a better job Which is why your book such a breath of fresh air It's sad that it has to be a breath of fresh air But at least it's here you know what I mean So yeah So Unless there are any other questions I think we can wrap up Well again thank you guys for having me Alexis like congratulations This is amazing Thank you for doing me And thank you guys for having me And yeah I hope to meet some of you guys And stay in touch And yes I want to be following all your exploits As far as like your victory I've been following you on Instagram Just like that looks fun We're gonna have fun when you come to DC So it's very cool You're welcome you're welcome Of course you're signing mine