Gee, don't worry, nobody has to say 10 seconds. No, no, not that. We should have been doing it this way all the time. Stand by. My fellow Americans, tomorrow is a day for celebration. Celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Joy envelopes us as it must have enveloped our ancestors 1988 years ago when unto us a child was born. Our joy comes this happy season featuring Hanukkah as well. Not merely from the family dinner at which we come together, nor just in the delight that a small child takes in all the sounds and smells and sights and a gift. It's not simply the crackle of a fire, the tinsel on the tree, and the annual viewing of, it's a wonderful life. Yes, all these things are joyous indeed, but this is also a time for prayer, a time for us to count our myriad blessings and reflect upon the joy that is ours every day of every year. Because of the common stresses and strains of everyday life, we may be forgiven for forgetting from time to time all that God has given us. One child has a fever, another is grumpy, a third is asking why is the sky blue, and all the while there are bills, bills to pay and a roof that leaks. Sometimes it all seems a little too much, and at these moments we look back with longing to a time when our responsibilities did not seem so large. But this season those responsibilities are revealed for what they truly are, the God-given blessings that give our lives flavor and meaning, and the more responsibilities of this kind we have, the greater are our blessings. For in this way we're indeed made in the image of our Lord. At our best our capacity to love seems inexhaustible. We know at this time of year that all we must do is give of ourselves and in return we shall receive all that we've given and much, much more. We know that there are those among us for whom the holidays are painful and lonely. I know you join with me in hoping that this year they will take heart and have faith. For the message of this most joyous holiday is that we are all, no matter what divides us, we are all loved by a force greater than ourselves. A love that surpasseth all understanding. A love that provides all the answers for those who feel lost and alone during these remarkable days. We are not alone, we are never alone. Now here in our country there are children without homes suffering from dire diseases whose Christmases will be makeshift at best. But the miracle of human generosity can and does transform the holidays for them. This year, as in years past, your generosity has been breathtaking. Programs like Tots for Toys, I have to start over again. My fellow Americans, tomorrow is the day for celebration, celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Joy envelopes us as it must have enveloped our ancestors 1988 years ago when under us a child was born. Our joy comes this happy season featuring Hanukkah as well. Not merely from the family dinner at which we come together, nor just in the delight that a small child takes in all the sounds and smells and sights and a gift. It's not simply the crackle of a fire, the tinsel on the tree, and the annual viewing of it's a wonderful life. Yes, all these things are joyous indeed, but this is also a time for prayer, a time for us to count our myriad blessings and reflect upon the joy that is ours every day of every year. Because of the common stresses and strains of everyday life, we may be forgiven for forgetting from time to time all that God has given us. One child has a fever, another is grumpy, a third has asking why is the sky blue, and all the while there are bills to pay and a roof that leaks. Sometimes it all seems a little too much, and at these moments we look back with longing to a time when our responsibilities did not seem so large. But this season, those responsibilities are revealed for what they truly are, the God-given blessings that give our lives flavor and meaning, and the more responsibilities of this kind we have, the greater are our blessings. For in this way we are indeed made in the image of our Lord. At our best, our capacity to love seems inexhaustible. We know at this time of year that all we must do is give of ourselves, and in return, we shall receive all that we have given and much, much more. We know that there are those among us for whom the holidays are painful and lonely. I know you join with me in hoping that this year they will take heart and have faith. For the message of this most joyous holiday is that we are all, no matter what divides us, we are all loved by a force greater than ourselves. A love that surpasseth all understanding. A love that provides all the answers for those who feel lost and alone during these remarkable days. We are not alone, we are never alone. Now here in our country there are children without homes, suffering from dire diseases, whose Christmases will be makeshift at best. But the miracle of human generosity can and does transform the holidays for them. This year, as in years past, your generosity has been breathtaking. Programs like Toys for Tots and literally tens of thousands of local initiatives are examples of this nation's determination to give all children a sense of what the Christmas spirit is and what it can mean for them. I know all Americans have joined with me in grieving for those who perished in the Armenian earthquake. The realities of this nature afflict our spirit. It's hard to see why such a thing happens, what it might mean. But the American people are showing us they know they are loved, they know they can renew their strength and rebuild and rededicate themselves to life. We have been witness to the breathtaking bravery of the people of Leninakan and Spetak as they ready themselves for the task of going on. And yes, they will go on for the Armenian people are made of hearty stuff. As Hazel Barsamian, an American of Armenian descent says, and I quote, we have a history of this kind of tragedy. We are fighters, we are survivors. We stand together and we will survive. And at a time of such terrible calamity, something happens in the world, something worth thinking about at Christmastime. For a time the real differences that divide us and will continue to divide us fall away. Closed borders open, friends and enemies alike share the burden and hope to help. From Israel and war-torn Lebanon alike, supplies and aid have been sent to Soviet Armenia. And from the United States the response has been staggering. Relief workers, tens of millions of dollars in private contributions, food, clothing, a cascade of goodwill and fellow feeling. Christmas is the time of the Prince of Peace and we are therefore reminded yet again that our differences are not with common people but with political systems. In Armenia the birth of our Lord is not celebrated until January 6th. It is an Armenian tradition that priests travel to the homes of their flock and there make a special blessing with bread, water and salt representing life and substance. This season more than ever made the blessings of the priests over the bread and water and the salt provide the Armenian people with the strength to persevere and triumph.  Until next week, thanks for listening and may God bless you. I know all Americans have joined with me in grieving for those who perished in the Armenian earthquake. Tragedies of this nature afflict our spirit. It's hard to see why such a thing happens, what it might mean. But the Armenian people are showing us they know they're loved, they know they can renew their strength and rebuild and rededicate themselves to life.


What is up you guys got a little bit of a different format decided to film myself in the car a little bit I had a very interesting topic That one of my students brought up to me And he said Lloyd Why is it that men have to get rejected so much more than women do?  And you know I have a boyfriend, you know, I need to see my friends like see you like you get a lot of rejection Men get rejected way more than women do when it comes to romantic situations for sure I think in general men get just rejected more in life. I don't know if you can prove me wrong in this area Take a look at how the things usually go down guys asking for the phone number guys asking the girl out He's trying to make plans though. It's the woman's position to either say yes or no That's her story And so a lot of guys when they hear this they get frustrated they think oh well It's not fair like why do women get to have all the power? Well first of all if you think they have all the power just because they're not getting rejected as much as us You're sorely mistaken Women have power, but men We are pushing ourselves that that is your job as a man if you're doing your job You should be pushing yourself if you never get rejected in life. You're not maximizing your potential Anyone who has started a business anyone who has tried to do something or accomplish a goal you get rejected When I first started jiu-jitsu I was getting tapped out by everyone man. I was failing Constantly now when I walk into the gym the same people that I was rolling with one of the same people but like new people come in I'm tapping out most of the people there now But it didn't happen that way at the beginning and you have to try you have to fail And that's how you learn and that's how you better yourself And if you continue to live in a space or live in an environment where you're not doing that Then you're just not maximizing your potential and this is a pretty important line that I I think I read this in the rational male And that's which is a freaking awesome book yet. I think the rational male should be mandatory reading for all men and that's Rejection is better than regret if you've been in life and You walk around you've been rejected a lot It's a lot better than living with someone who regrets not taking the opportunities that were presented to them Regrets being in that relationship for that long that regrets not doing not talking to that person that they really liked And then you've probably had this dude You probably had the situation where some girl in your class or maybe there was some girl that you saw in the street or whatever She was really interested in you. She's make an eye contact with you.  I've had those situations so many times Regret is worse than rejection to illustrate this point even further I'm gonna tell you a couple stories the first story that I'm gonna tell you It's a story about when I was when I was younger. I had a girl do this is actually like when I was real young I think I was a freshman in high school First there was this girl her name was uh, I think her name was Desiree She was kind of interested in me and she really liked me There was like a few like a month period where she was really freaking into me And I was not a popular kid I was hanging around with kind of the nerdy guys and I did this performance for the talent show and just afterwards Everyone was like wanted to talk to me everybody was interested in me And she was really interested in me, too And I remember she would come and talk to me at lunch every single day And she would call me on call me up on the phone every single day, too We talked for like an hour or something About freaking nothing man I was just happy to talk to a hot girl and I had no idea she was interested me and I did nothing and then I later Found out a couple years later that she was actually that she really liked me She had a huge crush on me and Ever since I found that out I was like god damn it like of course I would have gone with her like she was so fucking fine, dude So obviously there was a lot of regret in that position second story I Was out I think I was a junior in high school when this happened and I had a huge crush on this girl This redhead in my class We'll just call her D So D sits like right across from me and I would just we sat together in Spanish class And I would just stare at her face the whole time. I was like super in love with this girl That was back when I was like a butt super like hopeless romantic, right and I remember I was like this yet as carefree attitude. She was like, you know Very independent and I was very into that. I thought she was so hot So eventually I worked up enough courage to ask her out to junior prom and miraculously she said yes miraculously she said yes and We went to junior prom and I was so nervous the whole time I remember I was like trying to be myself trying to act like confident And I just I was so nervous and it was so obvious that she just saw me as a friend And I tried to kiss her at the end and she just kind of like patted me on the back and just like left And I later found out that she started dating this like 25 year old guy And the way I found out was I had made her a mixtape and I went to her place after that.  I had a freaking nowhere And so we start talking for a little bit We eventually go out for drinks and I remember her showing up and she did not look like the same girl that I remember her You know when she was when she was 16, I think she was 16 or 17 When she was at that age man, she looked good. She was like she had an awesome body She was still the same independent carefree attitude and at that time that was really appealing that was like rebellious because she was Not conforming to what people were doing in school, but now it just seemed like she had no direction in life She didn't know what she wanted to do She didn't seem ambitious or motivated and on top of that she was like really out of shape She I was just not attracted to her at all But like my 15 year old brains telling me look like you gotta like at least do something with this girl because it's like You were so in love with her in the past. So we had drinks And then I gave you know, I gave her a kiss on the cheek at the end actually No, she gave me a kiss on the cheek at the end. That's what happened and I Just remember leaving and I didn't talk to her after that man I think I texted her once just to say hey, I think we should just be friends but that's how it went down and I Think about what she was thinking how she felt at that moment, you know Do you think she lives in regret? Do you think she regrets not getting with me? Maybe she might maybe she's so totally happy with the way she is But I know how it I how I feel and if I passed up the opportunity like I did before previously I would feel a lot of regret man The different the thing about women and men is that men tend to get better with age and then women kind of peek at around 21 22 and Then they can maintain that if they're taking care of themselves for sure but in terms of Their their mate value That goes down and guys tend to get better with age so Don't be scared if you're if you're getting rejected man. Remember Rejection is better than regret at least you're pushing yourself at least you're going out for the stuff that you want And then later on when you do find that special girl You know that you found the right one because you pushed yourselves to achieve your potential.  I Don't want you to sit there in regret and to think that oh I could have done this I could have done that if I had just pushed myself if I had just tried if I had talked to That girl I don't want that to happen to you guys so remember these stories that I told you because If you think it's uneven if you think the dating market is skewed where it should just be you know It should be totally equal or men and women should be getting rejected at the same rate Well, men and women deal with pain, but it's just in different flavors And I honestly think we got the better end of that deal


Welcome to this webinar, to this conference on the theme of gender and land rights in Afghanistan, as I'm sure many of you will be familiar with unequal access to land is a major cause of gender inequality in Afghanistan. This event has been organised by the Housing Land and Property Task Force in Afghanistan, which is part of the subcluster of the protection cluster, which is part of the humanitarian country team in Afghanistan. And it's been organised to examine the different ways that women can access land and to see how these can be converted into tangible impacts to strengthen women's rights. My name is Jim Robinson, I'm the coordinator of the Global Housing Land and Property Area of Responsibility within the Global Protection Cluster. And we at the HLP AOR are really pleased to be supporting this event, it's great to be here. So today we will hear from four fantastic speakers looking at the context in Afghanistan and some of the innovative responses to these challenges and finishing with a global perspective. And then we want to open up for questions, comments and discussion from you, our esteemed participants, so really hope that you will be able to comment and contribute and look forward to hearing from that about that. Just before we proceed, a short practical comment on housekeeping, so please unless you're speaking, would you kindly keep your microphone on mute and your video off just to prevent some disturbances and also any strain on the bandwidth and our streaming capacity. But please do, as you already are, please do use the chat function to introduce yourselves but also for comments and for questions and we'll keep an eye on those as we go through and yeah please please do raise questions there. When it comes to the discussion after we've heard from our speakers, you can either raise your hand, use the raise your hand function, if I'm not seeing you please do sort of nudge me and also use the chat function to put your questions forward as well. So myself and my colleagues will be keeping an eye on that. So let's begin. I'm going to ask each of the participants to introduce themselves and then they will speak for around 10 minutes. What I'll do is I'll turn my camera off while they're speaking and then I'll put my camera back on when you have around a minute left speakers so just to let you know that we're coming to the end of the 10 minutes and I'll also send you a message when you reach 10 minutes just to keep things flowing. We have an hour allocated for this but we can, I'm available to stay on for an extra 10-15 minutes afterwards if the discussion is continuing and of course there's also lots of opportunities to follow up so yeah so I'm going to begin with inviting Azima Roya from UN Habitat to speak to us. Now I understand Azima's internet connection might be a little bit troublesome so if that's the case, colleague David Dominic Maliro, who's Chief Technical Advisor on the Shored Programme from UN Habitat is going to step in. So firstly Azima, I'll open the floor up for you but if you need to hand over to David then please do that. Azima are you there? Okay, very well Jim. In order to manage the time, the moment Azima John pops in, we should be good. I'll be able to hand over the floor to her. I will do my level best to represent the women of Afghanistan.  We do work together in Afghanistan and firstly is to say thank you. I'm delighted to be among the community of practitioners who very much work around the clock and keep thinking about HLP issues. And what we are doing with Azima, myself with a background in human settlements and urban planning and previously with a strong background in civil engineering. So I tried to bring that together and Azima John to another level, she brings in a lot of institutional memory, institutional understanding and of course the context understanding of Afghanistan. What we intended to share was pretty very much around the question of the overview of how we deal with the question of gender, the issue of the challenges that come with obtaining rights for land. And looking at how do we persuade government to be able to look at a municipal empowerment of women in Afghanistan to be able to own assets, to be able to belong, to be able to participate in the entirety of the integration and integration processes in Afghanistan. It has not been easy. It involves a lot of head scratching. Some of us went in with black hair. Some white began to pop in. There are quite a number of challenges in terms of securing rights for women in Afghanistan. Some of those challenges are very much cultural and some of those challenges are very much institutional. Now, we are working in a context where less than 30% of the land in Afghanistan is legally registered. And much as within the context of the Sharia law, women would then have an entitlement to a particular portion of the asset holding of the husbands. When land is not registered, that increases the complexity. And that complexity is more accentuated, especially so for women who have had to depart from the safety of their homes, from the safety of their social coping networks. And I've had to be refugees in other countries where that sort of a domain of survival is not there.  And when they return, often they cannot be able to access the original places of residence and many times the property restitution are not possible because someone else takes over the property that they used to own or the husband used to own or the family used to own. So this is the context within which we have tried to see how best do we help the women who suffer the greatest of hardship, of insecurity, of natural disasters, how best do we support them in terms of them being able to get this right. So what we did under the SHURA programme, SHURA programme being the sustainable human settlements for integration in urban areas in Afghanistan, was to then use a blanket presidential decree 305, which is subsequent to many presidential decrees that are different political connotations, but without a specificity to return to urban areas, a specificity that brings in both gender. So within that frame and within the 33 articles that are in place, and with specific regard to article 14, we did manage to sneak in something that will be able to tie together the husband and wife, or the husband and wives together, and something that will be able to support the women whose husbands have died. Or otherwise the women who were mothers and the below 18, and that becomes quite a little bit of a problem because then in Afghanistan in terms of the cultural aspect that I mentioned, for a lady to be able to even get access to rent of a property, they would need to have someone called a maharam with a male family member to be able to stand in as a guarantor, or otherwise a security for them to, even in the list, rent property, even when they can be able to do that. So leave alone being able to own land and to be able to own housing. So the experience we have working with the government, we have a government that is forward looking, a government that is doing everything possible to be gender inclusive. And what you have done is through the presidential decree, I stood then put in a scheme that provides full rights to land. And because we know that if you provide only land without being able to provide incentives to develop the land, then the absorption capacity of most of these women could not be able to sustain them to retain and hold on to that land. So we combine that land with the housing, and this is permanent housing to ensure that the asset holding comes to bear in terms of empowering the female-ended households, empowering the women that have been widowed. The women-ended households have died fighting the war, and the women that then return to their country without the possibility of being able to go back to their villages and be compelled to become part of the urban sort of dynamics, the kind of urban requirement to urban asset holding that allows you to be then to be able to borrow and to be able to build on to that particular asset holding. Either using the contribution that comes from diaspora. So this is the broad aspect of the PDT05, and this program basically is being piloted in two provinces, and at the moment we are happy that the is about 30% of women that have had the strength to be able to apply it because traditionally women will not be able to come and apply. And what we did was to select land that is least contested within the urban setting so that they would not feel obliged to need to have a man with them to be able to get the land. And for the 70%, we have sort of a yoked together, both the husband and the wife, where the two of them are still alive to own the property co-jointly. And the aspiration of this is that then when the women are participating, this parcel of property has to become collaborative and has to become a participatory and the development or redevelopment of the people when they return becomes a collective family effort. And what we have done again is to work with different UN agencies to ensure that the vulnerability criteria that is put in place in terms of scoring does bring to the fore the women that have the ability to absorb the particular assistance. But however, they also have the ability to be able to put in place the Afghan helps the Afghan kind of dynamic where Afghans do support additional families. And this is especially so with regard to the child mothers that then would not necessarily qualify for this land. To date, we have 20,000 households that have applied for both Kabul and Erat. And the full intention is to be able to scale up the program to cover not only the two provinces to scale it up to the total of 29 out of 34 provinces where we have access. And there's a willingness on the part of the governor's on the part of the municipal authorities to agree to the requirements and the articles of the presidential decree 305. So with those few remarks, I want to give the floor back to Jim and to say thank you and I'm more than happy to take as many questions as possible. Over to you. Thank you, David. Thank you. That was really excellent introduction to the topic and also to the work that you are involved in as well. And I imagine it will raise all sorts of questions. What we're going to do is we're going to hear from each of the speakers first and then we'll come back at the end. So if you do have questions or comments, please note them down and yeah, we will come to those shortly. So thank you, David. I really appreciate you stepping in there. And if, if, if Azima comes online, we can involve her in the discussion as well. So, okay, we're going to turn now to our next presenter, Mr Ezadullah Raji, who's a technical advisor with the ICLA programme part of NRC's programme in Afghanistan. So Raji over to you. Thank you, Jim. And good afternoon to everybody. I'm happy to have this opportunity to join you in this conference. I would like to address a couple of issues in regard to the gender and land whites in Afghanistan and then would like to hear from you, your comments and questions. The first thing that I would like to talk about is the legal frameworks that assert housing, land and property or the rights of women in Afghanistan. As you all know, the legal system of Afghanistan is based on Sharia and, you know, the article three of the current constitution of Afghanistan says that no laws in Afghanistan can be against Sharia. So Sharia makes the basis of the legal system of Afghanistan. So when we look at Quran and Hadith, I mean the sayings of Prophet Muhammad as the two main sources of Sharia, we see that, you know, the Ichilpe rights of women are recognised. I mean both Quran and Hadith recognise the right of women to the housing, land and property.   So, you know, Quran recognises the rights of women to Ichilpe, whether it is through will, through inheritance, through sale, through different ways and methods that are recognised as the ways to, you know, to acquire ownership in Islam or in jurisprudence. But from the other hand, in terms of inheritance, there is some, you know, kind of inequality between men and women, as it is very, you know, I think clear for all of you that in terms of inheritance, there is some difference between men and women. So it is not the case that always women inherit the same share as, you know, get the same share of the inheritance as, you know, as a man does. So in terms of the legal system, there are a couple of, you know, laws in Afghanistan that, you know, support the women's right to Ichilpe, the constitution, civil code, land management law and some other regulations that I would not, you know, like to go in details.  One point that I wanted to say is that, you know, so in terms of the legal system, there are a lot of, you know, laws, provisions, articles that support, you know, women's right to Ichilpe.  Although in, generally, there is some discrimination between men and women in terms of, in terms of inheritance because one brother, you know, gets twice as much as a sister does. But in the personal status law in Afghanistan, unfortunately, a wife, not all women, only wife, does not, you know, get any part, any share of the property of her husband. While according, you know, to the jurisprudence, half of the, of the, you know, what do you call it, of the state or patrimony should go to wife and that certain circumstances. But this law says that wife does not get any, you know, part from the immovable property, not from movable property, whether it is money or anything, that is okay, there is no issue. But when it comes to the immovable property, there is an issue that, you know, wife cannot get any part of the immovable property. So it is, you know, one example of the challenge that women are facing in terms of, you know, access to, to each of the rights based on the legal system of Afghanistan. I will stop this part here and we'll go to the next issue that I wanted to address. And that is, you know, the ways that a woman or women in Afghanistan can, you know, through which they can acquire land or, you know, each of the rights in Afghanistan. So there are different ways based on the, based on Sharia and the legal system of Afghanistan is starting from inheritance to sale to, you know, will to donation called Hibbe or other other ways. I would like to emphasize on inheritance, you know, inheritance is one of the easiest way, one of the easiest ways that a woman can acquire land.  The fact is, unfortunately, that a lot of HLP disputes with that it is related to mean or women in Afghanistan are addressed through the informal justice system through Shuras and, and, and Jurges, local Shuras and Jurges. So they are not always, you know, referring to the status relance to the constitution to civil code or to other relevant, you know, thank you, James.  Usually, you know, women are denied from their, their inheritance, right, or sometimes there is a compromise while they do not get the land itself in a state they are paid some money, which is always, you know, less than the price that's or, you know, the price that, you know, the land would have.   If women in Afghanistan have access to land, so it will help them a lot. Access to land mean that they would be, you know, prevented against a lot of protection issues, a lot of, against a lot of violation, especially this, you know, gender based violence and, you know, domestic violence and different. So, I mean, if a woman, you know, owns her home, her house on her land and has a source of income, so she would, you know, be able to defend her right and she would be able, you know, to get access to a lot of other rights that she has, you know.  So, I would like to summarize it that, you know, the impact of having access to, to land rights in Afghanistan could be really crucial and, you know, you know, significant for for women in, you know, in terms of being in terms of enabling them, you know, to get access to other rights and, you know, to be saved against the protection risks and issues. I would like to stop here and thank you all. So, I would be happy to hear your comments and questions. Thank you. Thank you Raji for that. Setting out some of the legal challenges and the importance also of access to land for women to realise many of their rights in many different areas of their lives as well. So, thank you for that and we will definitely come back to you with questions after we've heard our following two speakers. So, I want to turn now to Felicity Cain, who is a technical advisor on the city for all programme with UN Habitat in Afghanistan. Felicity, over to you. Hi, thank you, Jim. Good afternoon. Good evening to everyone. My name is Felicity Cain. I am the technical advisor on the city for all programme. And I think I'm joined online today by my colleague Anthony who is out CTA. So, nice to be here with you all today. I will focus a little on the contributions of land registration and improved occupancy rights for women in Afghanistan. As we've undertaken as part of the city for all programme. Well, first a little background. Our data from the 12 cities where we've worked suggests that 84% of city of properties are informal. So, only 16% of these actually have formal land ownership documents. And of all properties, only 5% are owned by women. And so, as we all know that this insecure land tenure for women underpins and is essentially an indivisible for many of the other challenges faced by Afghan women, particularly those in informal settlements. In secure land tenure underpins adequate housing and poor wash conditions. Most residents in Afghan informal areas don't have access to water, sanitation or waste services. Of course, women's role in unpaid domestic labour and childcare means they suffer greater negative health effects and more prone to economic shocks than men. There's also the challenges of lack of economic opportunities, including access to credit. At our colleagues mentioned that it leaves women facing uncertain land inheritance rights and greater threats of violence, particularly in the context of land disputes. Further, it's incredibly important for identity and self determination and pride for women. Moving now to what I'd like to focus on, which is this example of how through the CFA program, the city forum program, we've been working to address land tenure security for women. I think it's a practical example of on the ground implementation of the voluntary guidance on governance of tenures recommendations. It's specifically its recommendation that land tenure program should build on existing or culturally appropriate models. And so we do that using a spectrum of tenure approach. The CFA program is funded by the EU and USAID and it seeks to improve stability and stimulate local economic development and improve land management. And thereby strengthening the social contract between the citizens and state working in 12 cities. We do this through a three-pronged approach. Firstly, is looking to improve land tenure insecurity and effective land management, including by surveying and registering all properties in the 12 cities where we work. Second, we support government to improve municipal revenue generation or transparent generation. Including by generating safae fee, which in Afghanistan translates to a cleaning fee, but in other contexts would be considered a property tax levied by municipalities. Thirdly, we then support government to improve municipal urban planning and service delivery, including through projects for upgrading that use the safae revenue. So now moving to some examples of what specifically under the CFA program we've been doing to improve land tenure security, including for women through the spectrum of tenure approach. We do this primarily through occupancy certificate regulation. So while the 2017 land management law sets out that ownership is proved by formal documents, as well as some customary documents, specifically those that are informally document transactions of land that was previously formally recognised. This obviously leaves a gap, and that's where the regulation on managing affairs of urban informal properties in 2018 seeks to address. It's also known as the occupancy certificate regulation. So that fills the gap for properties that don't meet the land management law requirements to prove ownership through formal documentation, but they can legally occupy land. So in this way, it helps us to formally recognise these occupancy rights through registration and also through issuance of occupancy certificates provided certain conditions are met. So the program we support government to survey all of the properties and then government issue the occupancy certificates. Given these are officially government issued documents, these are regarded as providing a higher degree of tenure for recipients and form as a service, a form of land ownership documentation that can be upgraded to deeds. In terms of how the program or how the OC regulations further access to land for women, there's three things I want to highlight. These are provisions, the following provisions. Firstly, both spouses names are to be on to be in the registration process and on the occupancy certificate, thereby providing an equal share of recognition for properties on state land. Second, women have a right to equal share of the property documented with an OC. And thirdly, in the case of female head of households, a property is registered in their names only, and OCs are issued to them, thereby removing this risk of claim by other family members. So through this process, I think there's some interesting data that I'd secondly like to share, including some data on the number of women who have been issued OCs. So far, the program has surveyed 837,000 properties. So that with an average household of 7.2, that's over 6 million people have been reached through this insecure, secure tenure approach rather. Of those properties we surveyed 16% have formal documents, 49% have customary and 35% have no documentation. So that 49% is where we see the gap, the opportunity to improve land tenure security in particular. As I mentioned at the outset, only 5% of properties are owned by women. Though in some cities, in particular in the South and Spinbolduck and Cundahar, that's at 0%, whereas in Kabul it's slightly higher at 7%. Of those that are owned by women, 33% have formal ownership, which I think is interesting compared to 16% of the national average. Presumably, I was talking to my colleague Anthony about this previously, that this may indicate that for women to actually own their own land, it has to go through the formal system. Because through informal systems, they're less able to claim that right to the land. 46% have customary documentation and 21% have no documentation, compare that to 35%, which is the national average. So secondly, moving to the OCs data, we have issued 30,960 OCs. Over half of those, about 56%, are both in the name of men and women. So when you contrast that again to the existing national average, that's the issue of any land that's owned by women, that's a huge improvement. We also have 857 of the 30,000 that are in the name of women only, so female-headed households. Just to mention this, there are still another 274,000 properties that are eligible for OCs. So we hope to see this scaled up, particularly when some of the bottlenecks that OC issuants are addressed. We can go into those later if of interest. And finally, I just wanted to end with a couple of other notes on how I see it. I'm showing you a screen on how CFA also supports improving land access and security for women. One of the things that, through the territorial units, we have a minimum of four women of the 13 members. And these units are responsible to oversee the property registration and community engagement processes and identification of properties. We also involve women through all stages through the participatory planning and through the street addressing as well. So what I would end with saying is that I think there's a key opportunity in the cases where OCs have been issued to women to then shift our focus to engaging women in the participatory urban planning and service delivery processes so that their role in urban governance is multiplied across the scales. So I'll stop there and hand over to you. Thank you, Jim. Thank you Felicity. Thank you for sharing again some fascinating research figures and also some of the response of the cities for all programme. That's really interesting. I'm sure there'll be some questions coming in on that. Thank you for those who are sharing your questions in the chat box. We'll come to those later on or I see some are answering them there as well. Yes, whichever works. I'm going to turn now to Ombretta Temprar, who is the land specialist with the Land Housing and Shelter Unit of UN Habitat. And she's going to come from a more of a global perspective and reflect a bit on what we've heard here. And yes, so Ombretta, over to you. Thanks, Jim. I was, hello everybody. It's nice to see all the colleagues. Actually, I would like to share my screen if says I cannot share while other participants are sharing, but maybe, Jim, you can put on my presentation and I'll start talking to that. So it's really a pleasure to be in this discussion today, which actually, you know, really comes to give some concrete examples, challenges and lots of progress made on the ground with women land rights. So congratulation to all the people in Afghanistan for this really inspiring progress. I am just, I was asked to give a little bit of global perspective, but maybe more on also bringing in the kind of humanitarian development access view and on land governance in particular. So this was a quite broad area, so I decided to focus on three points, which are, sorry, I'm struggling with technology, the, well understanding and working within legal pluralistic context. Secondly, the key aspects of women empowerment at the community level. And the third one, a little bit of broader perspective on land governance, I was, as I was saying. Next please. So for the legal pluralistic aspect, I mean Afghanistan definitely is not the only one that of the country where we work, there is a challenge with legal pluralism. And I think while, you know, most of the intervention managed to work proactively with it, you know, we tried to see from other experiences as well how can be some guidance given in general of how to work within a legal pluralistic context. Then obviously would be to understand the different source of law and do a general analysis of each. And then maybe in the short term try to address those gender gaps, but also other human rights gaps on, you know, gaps that minority face with the specific, you know, maybe the formal system, the religious, the customary, etc. See what can be done in the short term, but then progressively try to harmonize align and reconcile the different provisions that are related to land and women access to land in these different systems. I will allow basically to to have this different component not to work against each other and leaving gaps and gray areas, and maybe on clarities that are actually proven to disadvantage women, and also those who are less able to, you know, really smartly or engage with each of them, you know, from a perspective maybe more educated and knows better all the system. And therefore, I mean the least gaps we have and the less, you know, this system are conflicted with each other or sending conflict messages to the beneficiaries to the women to the poor, the better. So this is a sort of a, you know, start to work towards an alignment of this system to make sure they work together well. And then, you know, ultimately, while we engage, we understand that in the short terms probably we have no option in some context really there are no option of choosing which entry point to use, you know, perhaps in some rural areas where really the formal system the formal system the formal legal system really doesn't is not known sufficiently or the institution don't reach, you know, up to there there is no option really to really engage with the religious or the customary and we have done some case studies where for example even in Niger or in other countries where it really worked well on the short term to engage with the religious and customary system. It's also important to think strategically, you know, on the longer term, what would that mean, you know, because obviously once, you know, the international community engage with one system, somehow weakens the other or there are aspects on the other one in the case, you know, we should be careful not to undermine the formal system and think a longer term a little bit. Next slide. Actually, you know that we are working together with the HLPAOR on a set of messages on what works actually to increase women access to land in infragile context, and this document hopefully will be ready soon, hopefully next month. And there is a long list of messages so I don't want to go through them and also it will be very long, but I think the main one really is to empower women at the community level and ensure they are organized and they talk to each other and they are empowered but also organized. And this obviously comes through in terms of information sharing, direct practical support, because we see also through different NRC researchers, for example, in different countries that really a lot of women fail to access land because they lack practical support, not so much maybe on the legal aspect, but really on how to overcome the practical steps on how to access the land administration system or the dispute resolution system. And again, ensure that women are part of decision making processes. We are also, you know, celebrating the 20 year of governing Security Council resolution 1325 that really puts women at the center of peace, negotiation, mediation, et cetera, but we haven't seen that very much yet on the ground. And this is really where all of us strive towards that, but I think still there is a lot to be done, especially to ensure that women are part of peace negotiation, peace mediation, but also those processes linked to those broader ones that are related to land. And that they are traditionally, I'm not traditionally like there is evidence that they are systematically fall off, particularly the restitution processes or land and HLP related commissions. These are some of the areas where women actually disappear from the picture in spite of, you know, the clear need for them to be there. Next, please. Last point is on now looking broadly actually agenda responsive land governance. And here again where we bridge a little bit the HLP perspective, the land rights, you know, of women in fragile context through the overall actually land governance system. Just to recap for ourselves, you know, there are many definitions of this, but we can say that in a nutshell, land governance is the process by which decisions are made regarding the access and use of land, the manner in which those decisions are implemented and the way the conflicting interests around land are reconciled. Right. So this is a little bit the spectrum. If we see the next slide. This is the way it looks a little bit on the, you know, all together when we talk about HLP rights, we can see that the green box which is says land tenure, which is obviously and, you know, underpin by the land policy framework, the institution, the landing from information structures, but let's say if we look at overall land management and land administration functions. There is land tenure, but there is also land value land use land development. I mean, this obviously is one model there can be others but this is the one the global and tool network usually uses to actually unpack how land management and land administration can be, you know, described, and all of this component need to be gender responsive gender inclusive. Just to give some examples. In the next slide. You know, obviously when we talk about legal policy framework. There is need to improve and make them gender inclusive in the process but also amend those part that are not gender responsive. There is need to align the different legal system. And this might be, you know, a number of laws that are, you know, beyond the formal one, etc, etc, the institution, but overall at the end, a little bit linked to the fact that women need to be empowered and be enabled to participate. It's very important that women employment in the land administration function and land administration organization is supported and courage and courage and really, you know, pushed forward because only when the land administration system overall will not be perceived as a male only sector that's where all the rest will come along. Secondly, the process need to be less bureaucratic faster cheaper cheaper and not require excessive documentation this is really proven to be what really blocks women more than anything else more even than the law more than the inheritance system blocks women from accessing land rights, and this would obviously be very inclusive also to men or poor men, etc. Remove practical barriers. I think I spoke to that earlier. Simplify it make it accessible. You know, overall, these are general guidance but clearly, you know, when there is an assessment of the gender responsiveness of the administration system in the specific context. That's where you know specific targeted measures can obviously be designed and made tell her to that. That's just that that's it. That's what I wanted to say on this, you know, for this discussion to give a glimpse a little bit of the brother picture beside HLP rights land rights. And I'm happy to take any questions or inputs from from the floor. Back to Jim. Thank you. Greta. Thank you for giving that. Yeah, that sort of global sense of what's going on and some of the things that you've been working on to respond to to some of these issues. I appreciate that a lot. Now, so we've got about 1015 minutes to have some discussion. In the chat box has been a number of questions that have already been posed and some of these have have been answered. What I intend to do is. I'm going to just frame a couple of the questions that have been asked. And then ask, ask whoever of the panellists wants to respond to respond and as Emma, I don't know if you've joined us, but if you have please you're very welcome to respond as well. So I thought I'd begin just by grouping some questions that have come together that speak a little bit about protection risks and power and those kind of things. So we've heard from Jenny Mona and Eveline. So when securing land to women, have you experienced any protection risks related to women owning land alone around harassment. Also what's done to avoid the overburdening of women with land ownership, for example, payment of expensive taxes related to this. So how does the program mainstream protection not have an indirect harm by increasing violence against women due to access to land. And again, again related to that, how do these programs address power relations between men and women. So I open those up to to our panellists. That might kind of features in some of the work you've done. I know David, it sounds like it really relates to the work you've been involved in as well and Felicity Ombretto, I really welcome your inputs on that. So, yeah, would one of you like to respond to that general area. Yeah, Jim, with the intelligence, I would just want to sort of top up a few of the responses that I've shared with Jenny and Eveline. It's not the easiest of the things to do if I must be honest. It has involved a lot of persuasion has involved a lot of alternate legislation. While my colleague Felicity and Anthony will be able to share a little bit of what they have done with regards to the municipal law while they'll be able to share in terms of what they have done in terms of working within the cause of the city, especially with occupant certificates, looking at the question of land grabs, looking at the question of the place of women within the urban fabric. Looking at the entirety of the question of displacement vis-à-vis the social fabric that has been sort of the mainstay in Afghanistan. Now, Afghans have a unique attribute of the transnational networks and intramational networks that we then had to really study to be able to understand how do these networks come into play in terms of being able to create a new space within the context of the new settlements that we are trying to put in place. And the question was, how do you find neutral land that is less contested so that at least they have a little bit of a breather to be able to establish themselves, establish themselves one, as part of the small localized governance structures, to as part of the quasi municipal governance structures, and then how could we restructure the way we do our urban planning to be responsive to this new dynamic of say a lady that left to Pakistan or left to Iran and comes back to the mother country, and they can be able to go to the village of origin. They have established new friends, how do you bring them together. So from the Shura perspective, and I'll give way to Felicity, and I should, as Emma be online, should be able to speak more within a personal context, how that works. So to be able to work out, we then created a program called reintegration, reintegration meaning a social re-engineering process. There is no culture. These are people from kicked out of Copenhagen kicked out of Europe, return back to either as a voluntary repatriation, or otherwise as a voluntary repatriation based on how they were able to reach those particular places that they hoped to be able to get a little bit of relief.  So it's an entire social re-engineering process where the friendship that is developed in the indignity of those refugee camps comes to bear in terms of creating new little microcosms of a new culture that then is able to work within the voting cluster under the citizens charter program, and within the gender policy context of the national solidarity program, we then use those to be able to apply them within the new urban architecture of re-establishing those communities within the sense of their new experiences, not the old experiences. So none of them has a place ownership, they both must have a new place ownership, that's how we play around. So those are my few remarks and I give the floor to either Felicity or Anthony, if they're online they could be able to share within the context of what do they do within the cause of the city, while we try to encompass the peripherals of the city to expand the space and make that space less contested as it were. Thank you. Thank you David. Felicity, would you like to come in or Anthony, whoever's. Okay, sure. Thanks, Jim. I can build on that a little and I think in response to, I think with Evelyn's question on what did the program also do to address power relations. Her point was right that it's documentation of registration of flight, this is only one step. And so I would emphasise this way the program, the CFA program we work in this three-pronged approach. So it's not just issuing occupancy rights, it's also engaging women through broader urban development processes. Specifically through, as I mentioned earlier, there's the CTUs that are cadastral territorial units, which have a minimum of four women of the 14 members. And they play a key role in overseeing, overseeing the land processes, so when a property is surveyed, advertised, so that the ownership can be confirmed through the community. And these committees are responsible for overseeing that. Any land dispute and as per the OC regulation, if there are any land disputes that involve women specifically, at least one female member from the CTU must be involved in that dispute committee. And so I think that that involvement, not just in the CTUs, but in broader goals are assembly networks and community development council networks, which are similar CTUs, but in all urban areas of Afghanistan. So these are area-based networks. There are also minimum quotas of women. And these community-based networks serve a key role. They're registered with municipalities. They serve a role in broader urban development planning processes. For example, as per the municipal law of 2018, all local municipal plans and budgets should be consulted through these committees. And CDCs in particular play a key role in, they have women's committees who also play a key role in selecting and implementing projects for communities. And so I highlight this as an example of how we seek to actually build a stronger relationship between women in the community and also position women in a capacity that enables them to take decisions for their local urban area. Another example is through the strategic municipal action planning process. So we support governments to utilise the participatory urban planning approach to develop local municipal plans. And that includes through consultations with ensuring that there are minimum 20 to 40% of women who are participating and ensuring the identification of projects that are focused specifically for women. And so I think this is one example of this stepping stone approach to not just give women more secure land rights. And as Umbretta said, but also use this community for an approach to further strengthen the role of women as local urban leaders. Thank you Felicity. Sorry, I'm just aware of time. So I'll just turn quickly to Umbretta and then Raji, I'll come to you for a comment as well. Umbretta. Yes, thanks a lot. I think there's an element of women being victim of violence because of claiming their rights is faced in many communities. A different levels and what worked from some of the case studies we analyzed is that, you know, the promotion of women land rights shouldn't be like as a standalone process, but should come together as a package of basically supporting gender empowerment, women empowerment. And for example, in some cases where there have been, you know, women land rights, I think this because was in Jordan, women land rights pushed ahead at the same time as programs to, you know, address gender based violence, as well as consistent and targeted messages from the leadership from the highest level of leadership, you know, the royal family that, you know, this is important and this is the way the country is going that proved to be effective. So, you know, I think having an intervention that really tries to change one of the dynamics while living the others as they are, it can be more risky than having a sort of a whole of society approach as much as, you know, obviously this is difficult, but it's important and really the engagement of the leadership at the highest level proved to be useful in that. Thank you. Thank you, Ombretta. Raji, did you have any comment on that question and also there was another couple of questions specifically directed to you, which we can look at as well. Yeah, I think the colleagues addressed all the issues, but I would like to address the two questions that were specifically addressed to me. I think the first question was about the, you know, the future perspective of the women rights specifically related to each of them in Afghanistan. I think there have been good improvements in this regard, in this regard recently with the two, you know, regulations first this PD 305 and then this land management informal lands in urban areas. These two regulations are, you know, very, you know, the good steps in terms of, you know, securing the land rights of women because these two regulations, you know, require the relevant authorities to put the name of the wife as the shareholder or as the partner on the title, which is very good, you know, progress. So, with this, you know, progress, I am hoping that access to each of the rights for women in Afghanistan would increase and, you know, with the support of the humanitarian actors and, you know, human agencies in terms of this issue. So the other question that was, at least I think it was about the expropriation, if I am not mistaken, we have a law in Afghanistan for the expropriation, and there is no difference between men and women.  So there is no difference between men and women as far as I know based on the law in this regard. The last point that I wanted to add here is, you know, about the displaced people because we in RC are working for the displaced people, IDPs, internally displaced people and persons and refugee returners.   So that is why they are, you know, more, you know, vulnerable to the protection risks that can, you know, arise from lacking, from lack of access to land and HLP rights in general. That's it. Thank you. Thank you, Raji. So I'm mindful of time. Now I'm happy to stay around and keep this going for another 10 minutes or so, but people may have to drop off. So I just want to, in case people do have to leave, just want to say thank you so much for being here and for the presenters sharing and then answering questions. And just to highlight that this webinar was part of the themes related to this, a part of something that's being developed in Afghanistan that there's a legal brief about to be released by the HLP Task Force on a Brief Guide to Women's Land Rights in Afghanistan. So do look out for that. We'll be sharing about that within the HLP AOR and I'm sure there's many other channels as well. And this discussion we're hoping will kind of feed and contribute into a maybe a one or two page of policy documents. So again, thank you so much for your comments and please keep them coming and we will make sure we note everything down and keep a hold of it. The recording of this event will be made available through the Protection Cluster and other kind of via YouTube and elsewhere. And I'll be updating on the HLP AOR website as well as the newsletter. I'm just going to put the link if anyone wants to sign up to that newsletter in the chat box. And I'm also going to put in my email address as well in case you need to get in touch with me for anything and to be in touch with other colleagues. So in the meantime, just that was by way of making sure that information has been shared, but we can carry on discussing for another 10 or so minutes. So Anthony, or should I say Hawaii P30 Pro, I believe you would like to make a comment. Yeah, so this is Anthony appearing as Huawei. I work with Felicity in Afghanistan in the same program. I just like to put into very quick comments. And these are actually coming from questions asked by I believe Evelyn. So her first comment is not to be taken lightly. The idea that in some contexts, especially mostly majority countries, power relations might be disturbed by some interventions where there are protection risks that come up between spouses at household level or even community level. This is very true. It's been seen in many countries. I've been told that there's a certain amount of stress that has been caused in some households in Afghanistan. I've even heard of divorces or potential divorces that have come out of the idea that this occupancy certificates will now be registered in the name of both spouses giving equal rights to spouses. So it's a reality that has been seen and it's something to be taken lightly and any interventions should perhaps have elements that take care of such externalities. Second point I'd like to comment on is although registration is not everything in terms of mainstreaming HP rights for women. It is extremely important, especially in the context of formal rights. Registration is very important. As you know, the two most important rights that are given by ownership registration for ownership and ownership documents is the rights to use and the rights to dispose. When there is registration, formal registration, it works very well for women because it restricts the right to dispose by husbands or spouses. They cannot dispose property by way of sale or by way of lease when it is registered in the woman's name. So it's extremely important and in formal context it is the game changer, I would say. Thank you. Thank you, Anthony, for those comments. I just one thing to mention as well within the chat. I know on Bretter shared some examples of case studies so a link to those. So please do have a look at those. Would anyone like to raise a question or make a comment in the participants is please do you know feel free to raise your hand or or come in otherwise I can turn to another question. OK, so please do continue to add to questions or do raise hand to get my attention. I just want to turn to a question that came in around there's been this actually bit of a theme that emerges is the you know what happens with some of the in terms of the power imbalance and Anthony touch on it there when sometimes there are these difficulties in having those rights actually fully realised and what does that mean in the home and in the community. And I think there's a question that's coming around land disputes that are they gender responsive and how can we better address specific barriers to access to just in the justice that women face. So this obviously relates to promoting protecting land rights but also more broadly I wonder if people have comments on that particularly maybe experiences where that's that's been achieved or there's been some progress because obviously there's a lot of challenges there but are there things that have worked things that we can learn from. I would like to add a comment on this. Yes.   So that is why a lot of people, you know, prefer to take it through the informal justice system, you know, this local churros and gyrgus.  Unfortunately, because, you know, of the culture and because of the context, what happens is that, you know, the decision is made against women usually and, you know, in favor of men, especially, you know, if it is, you know, one party male and one party female. You know, I can give you a lot of examples from what we have experienced working for years with IDPs and returners in terms of each LP, you know, a lot of sisters who, you know, claim their inheritance share from their brothers. So when it goes through the churros and gyrgus, they want to, you know, come with a reconciliation with kind of, you know, an agreement, which does not necessarily mean that the sister, I mean, the woman would, you know, receive whatever the share that she is entitled to.  Or some, you know, the hostility between these family members. So that is why they think somehow, you know, to reach an agreement, which is somehow good. I mean, in the state of having nothing, it would be good to have something, but it is not always, you know, fair and it does not always mean that they would, you know, with justice. So that is why in RC, we in RC have tried to build the capacity of the justice actors, both formal and formal through, you know, capacity building trainings and mentorship programme in terms of, you know, each LP issues. So they would receive three day capacity building trainings and a series of mentorship programme to make sure that they, you know, have first the knowledge, the skills and attitude, you know, to address the each LP cases responsibly, especially when it comes to women, each LP cases. Thank you. Thank you, Raji. On bretta, I see a hand raised. Is that a fresh hand? Yes, thank you. It's a fresh hand. Sorry to take the space again. I just wanted to agree with what Tula just said and let's say it was witnesses also in other contexts, for example, in the Gaza Strip, with, you know, when the conflictuality actually increased, there was an increase of number of women were actually resorting to religious and, you know, community based dispute resolutions in spite of those being, you know, less in terms of the less gender responsive in terms of the provision that they had. And exactly the reason was, I mean, not only that they were cheaper and faster, but that would allow them to basically keep access to the main resource that for them is the protection and the affiliation with the family.  The other aspect is the enforcement, you know, especially in fragile context where law enforcement and enforcement of decision taken is obviously a challenge. There is, you know, we can see that if we have a less conflictual, you know, decision made is more likely that actually the community will come together and try to enforce it. My question is, and I think was raised also in some other reports done by various organisations, I think also related to the case of Afghanistan, what is the long term, you know, implication of as sustaining such dispute resolution mechanisms on the long run. You know, is there a way to combine the short term gains with a sort of a bit of a longer term, you know, sustainability, you know, of the dispute resolution vision, what's our dispute resolution vision I would say in terms of land. Thank you. Thank you, Ombretta. And I think that's, yeah, a really important point and a good place to finish the discussion for today. How do we think longer term about these, these interventions, what is the transition, how do we see that shift to those sort of more nexus perspectives and working with other actors and within the country within with government with other actors in country as well. How do we get that longer term perspective so thank you. I want to say thank you to David to under Zema to Raji Felicity and Ombretta for your really engaging presentations and for fielding the questions thank you for all those who've contributed questions and raised issues and for listening in as well. We're going to finish the discussion now. Just want to say thank you again and I'm going to leave the sort of the meeting open for a little while in case everyone wants to add anything into the chat box just to make sure we've got all your comments and questions in that we can then sort of feed into the broader reporting process. Thank you to particularly to Ben and Patricia of the HLP taskforce in Afghanistan who've been organizing this and arranging this event and again just want to say look out for the legal brief a brief guide to women's rights in Afghanistan, which will be released soon and yeah I really look forward to keeping in touch. You've got my email and you can sign up for the mailing list. It won't be spam. I promise it will be a monthly newsletter and maybe invites to events like this and also to join in with a thematic group we have around women's HLP rights as well as many other things as well so please do get in touch and otherwise look forward to seeing you again soon. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you everyone. Bye bye. Thank you all.


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Make sure it ain't been lit. I think these are new.   Smell that. That smells magnificent. Ooh, fruitful. This smells great. Let me smell that. Let me just smell it. Okay, smell this one. Let me just see. They both smell great, but this one.  This one do smell good. So, yeah, y'all can have those. Thank you. That's on me. Amazing. And that'd be the perfect way to bring this in. Look, let me hit this bill and let it know. That's a black market. There we go. Yes! I'm like, this is cool. JLM, we're walking through the black market. You know how you be walking. You might be done passing a little food court, a little tennis shoe spot. You might be done walked over there where they sell the tiny homes that you never know.  Hey! I was just visualizing. I was in the mall. No, we were practicing after we heard about eating bananas. You know, we ate the corn dog. They having a phone cake. There we go. Clean that up, because y'all somebody mama. It's all right. Fun cake. Sorry. They was having a little piece of...  You know how this should be. Snow cone. But look, bro, I already got a whole bunch of notes about all the great things these ladies have accomplished, but they told me don't even worry about it. My job is going to be easy today, because this is basically what they do. So y'all got it from him, man. I've been working hard. Don't tell him. I always say her kick it off. Well, I'm Andrea Hamilton, my sister and business partner, Erica Hamilton. We own a PR marketing agency called Theory Communications. Been in business nine years, y'all. Give it up. Nine long years. Long, hard years. Been doing PR for like 13 years. And we do sports, entertainment, lifestyle, biopharmaceutical, TV, film. It don't matter. Hospitality. Yeah, comedy. And comedy is... Actually, we do do comedy, because Little Duvall is my client. Come on. Shout out to Duvall. Yeah. So, yeah. Very diverse. Yeah, we kicked off 2014. We're originally from Cleveland, Ohio. How you feel about Cleveland? This is a great place. Thank you. I appreciate that. You do? My family's from Cleveland.  They're some real ones.  If you've never been, but honestly, I always tell people it's a great place to raise a family. And just to learn, like, street smarts. And just to get a hustle about yourself. Yeah. Because it's not a lot coming out of there. You know, it's kind of dark. It's kind of gloomy. So, you got to really hustle if you want to get out.    Yeah, honestly, yeah. Cleveland got that. The lake. That lake drive. Yeah, but... The dirty snow. Yeah. Don't be brown. Don't bring me back. Don't be brown. But, yeah, so we were living there. And then Andrea moved down here to Atlanta first. She got accepted to go to SCAD.  I'm getting off of you. Oh, yeah. No, you know what? Man, you moved. I listened to Baby D. East Side versus West Side. And I said, I got to move to Atlanta.  So, yeah, she moved out here, was going to school for fashion design. Just random how we kind of found our way into PR. And I was still in Cleveland, just going out to the clubs. That was in the era where, like, LeBron was still living there playing for the Cavs.   Yeah, the flats. Yeah. Are you, are you? Are you familiar? Are you really familiar? Yeah. But, um, so when she moved out here, you know, like I said, I wasn't really doing anything. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to come visit her. And I never left. Never. Never left. I literally, I was working at Dillards. I had saved. It was like the holiday season. I saved probably like $500. And I thought that was enough to move to another state. To Atlanta. Yeah. Were the most successful drug dealers in America. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. And it worked out. It did. Here we go.  I know people who moved to Atlanta with less. Yeah. For real. $500 is the bonus. But see, I got to say, though, she did kind of set me up. She had an apartment already. Yeah. She had a room waiting for me. So literally all I had to do was kind of like kick my roommates out. It was kind of personal. First she stayed in my dorm before I had an apartment.  So then she just was staying in the dorm with me. And then we ended up getting an apartment. That's when she really moved all her stuff down. And that was just, it was over with her. I mean, I had much, but yeah. So close. Pretty much. We moved here. And then, while that you tell your part about the fashion and how you got into that, what do you call that? Internship. I was doing fashion design at SCAD. That's what I was going to school for. Funny thing, I had, I never graduated. I got two quarters left to school. Damn.  What? Funny thing. No, cause you know what actually just like, I'm a very transparent monster. I got kicked out of school three times. Damn. Not because I was a stellar student, but they have rules where if you're late, 15 minutes late to class, they automatically count as an absence. And after the third absence I got kicked out. So I'm not coming from a rich family. I worked several jobs. I used to work retail and then I used to bartend at ESO and Libra and different, you know, different places. Y'all remember them clubs? So I would literally get home, maybe six. No, like, cause you gotta count out. So you know, maybe six, but then I had class at 8 a.m. I was like late every day. So I kept getting kicked out. Cause I kept funkin' out because I was late. It wasn't because I was late. So I was looking through odd internships and I found a fashion PR one. I didn't even know what PR was. Like I was just like, okay, this sounds cool. Puerto Rico. Right. Basically that's how I was thinking. I'm like, okay, fashion Puerto Rico. I want to go to Puerto Rico. Let's go. So I go, I apply for it and I got accepted. And once I started working, you know, from me working in the clubs, I knew a lot of athletes. I knew a lot of athletes. This is what, this matches this, you know, job. So then I was like, maybe I should just do PR. And I got more into it and then that's when I dropped out of school.  She's an educator. She is one of the teachers that teaches teachers how to teach.  She still hurts at this day. But, I mean, it worked out. So then when I was in the media group, shout out to Angela Watts, that was like our first, you know, this real coach teacher mentor in this space. So, you know, I was just literally doing nothing.  So once I volunteered, I'm like, you know, my natural spirit, I'm a human being. But the best way to do that is by connecting the dots and really just networking.  We know enough people, you know, we have a different view of where we want to take our business versus where we were working at the time. And 2014 we kicked it off. Yeah. When did y'all start feeling like, hey, this is clicking. Funny thing, we kind of hit the ground running, but we did hit the ground running. It was rare. Most people when they start their business, they go through a lot of emotions. It's hard to obtain clients, but we launched, Loo Will was our very first client. He was a friend. I always did stuff for him for free, and when I told him we're launching a business. You did stuff for him for free. You know, they're comedians. I used to help him with work and any effort that he wanted me to reach out to me to complete for him any task, I would do it for him as a friend. You're going to hire us. He was like, all right, cool, just tell me how much you want me to pay you. It was that easy. We've been working ever since. Remember me to hit Loo for you. Now, I manage him. We do his PR and I manage him. I've been managing Loo for maybe six years now. That was our very first interview. You remember when VH1 used to do those rock docs? Yes. They did one on Atlanta called ATL Rise. Shaka invited us to be the talent liaison. We booked all the talent, all the interviews from Kilo Ali. We didn't even know and the importance of it. From Kilo Ali, to Kilo Ali. We did three seasons with them. We didn't even understand. That was our relationships. You get to interview people and listen to all the stories, things you might not know about these people. We know the songs, the hits, but knowing the entire origin story, we fly away. That project come to fruition was wonderful. The TV film space is dope. I just love everything that goes into the whole filming process. The majority of our clients here in Atlanta are in the hip hop space. Which can be fun, but it's trying at times too. We're family. We treat each other and we started from the ground up. We have worked with a lot of artists and businesses from the ground up. That can be hard. It could be hard for the client to let go of their baby and let someone trust them to help brand them and bring their project to life. We're doing everything at the time. As you grow, like we mentioned earlier, we're going on about nine years next year, you get to be a little bit more selective on who you work with and what you do. It's more about now quality over quantity. I'd rather have two people ask for this ridiculous head. A lot of people don't understand what PR means. Does the people know what it means? We are the liaisons between the product or entity, the brand and the masses, meaning the audience, the consumer. We are the storytellers. We are the spices, the items in the box. This is a production of our products. We are the liaisons. Who does this? We are the craftsmen.  A case study, we worked with Jack Harlow, who is this mega superstar now, getting into film and TV. We worked with him and he was literally fresh out of high school, just moved here. A gentleman by the name of KY, he's an engineer out here, worked with everyone, really took him under his wings, they're both from Louisville. He was 18 at the time. And we worked his very first EP and project like, you know, after high school.  Some people were, some people understood. But we believed in him and his brand and he just had the willingness to learn. A lot of people are not open to learning and being a sponge and like, getting OGs and listening to OGs, they think they're the OG at 25. You need to have somebody that's been there and done that and you need to sit back and really take heed to what they're saying. So like someone like Jack, I can see why he's now reached stardom because in his early days, he really wanted it and he waited his turn. He came on here and kicked it with us.  Shout out to Jack Harlow. Yeah, but you know, it's a lot that goes into it. So outside of like the PR, we try to get around to, like, it's a fun place, but so we'll do anything from screenings to hosting panel discussions, album release parties. But you know, even like in LA New York, I mean, we kind of travel everywhere with it. But Alana's homes, we try to do as many fun, cool things here as possible because sometimes Alana doesn't get that love and entertainment industry that like LA New York does. there's so many people out here to interview with and talk to. You know you got to go through Cleveland on the press ride. Yeah, you know you got to. That one long radio station. Right. Got to. But nah, like I really do love what we do. And y'all look good at what y'all do. Thank you. Thank you. You know, and sometimes, sometimes you get tired. I feel like anyone, when you do anything for a long time, you kind of feel like you're not challenged and you kind of feel like you're not getting pushed. So that's when sometimes we have to kind of rebrand. In a sense, maybe add more services that we offer, learn new things like now. We're working with clients in the biopharmaceutical space. I didn't know anything about that, you know, but we're learning and we're open to being challenged and just trying different things. That's dope, man. And you get to work with your little sister. That is. I'm like the little big sister. Yeah. So she, we're only like what, 20 months apart? Yeah. But she's absolutely the more mature one, I will say. We're like a yin and yang. So I'm like the business savvy one. I'm not, I'm a tourist. I'm not as nice. I'm not as friendly and bubbly as she is. She's the people person. I'm kind of like the one that stands back on the wall and observes the situation. I handle a lot of the business contracts. I'm the mean one. I'm the one who has to come in when somebody's got to be mean. It's me. But it works though. I love your job, but I mean, people think that's me, but it's not. But I'm really cool though, you know. I'm not. I'm really cool. When the business, I'm walking out. Yeah, no, me too. She wants no part. She's like, you need to go ahead and sit like girl. I'm like, please, please talk to them. I'm tired of being the one. Yeah. Because I'm actually really cool, but I'm, but I'm just like, I'm not a people person.  Like I really get, I had anxiety, like having to go to events and like mix and mingle and network because I'm just like, I don't like doing this. And that's where like I'll thrive. And like we're both creative. So we can both come up with different concepts and, you know, rollouts, marketing campaigns that are dope, but that's more like my lane. But I mean, working with your sister, there's absolutely the ups and downs. Like there's times where we're literally like about to absolutely put hands on each other and got to walk into a meeting and just, you know, let it go. But I couldn't work with anybody else. No, no, that was like year five, year six, seven, eight, but yeah, three days ago, I don't know, three days ago, man. That was last year's shit, but honestly though, I couldn't be in business with anybody else because no one is going to understand each other like we do and we're going to have each other's back. Book a ticket, go put that slow air card. I'm going to get with you though. Okay, please do. Please do. I'll get with you. But yeah. He studied on me today. So a baby stud.   It was motivation. Payback. It's all right. I'm going to hire y'all and clap my payback. Oh no, we do that. We do, we do a smear campaign. We're playing, no we don't. We don't do smear campaign, but we do crisis management. This is a payback. Oh no, no, no, I can't do that. Get back. I feel like I've done some things you never know. See, sometimes you got to release some seed. Wait, talk to the meanwhile. Sometimes you got to see some clips, you know. Some quotes, some clips you never know. You know, maybe Spam's page or something. Right, right, right. Clips of a real car. No, no, God, no. How have I heard?  It's fun. And you know, we're just really trying to expand this year. Like going into year 10. We're going to get with y'all on a few things, man. Oh no, absolutely. We're trying to expand the brand. We want to go international with it. You guys are already international. Yeah, but I'm talking about. Doing more shows. Let's shed light on new dogs, man. Like from the depths of the seas back to a lot. That's what we're trying to get to. Me too. Let's do it together. Yeah. All right. I'm with it. So look, what's y'all social media? How can people get in touch with you? I want to make sure that some of these internet people reach out to y'all. Yeah, reach out to us, but don't reach out to us if you're not ready. No, we got some, we got some, we got some decent motherfuckers out. All right, no, no, no, no. These ain't your everyday cats, man. I'm talking about, we got people out there. Well, you guys can find us on our business page at theory-t-h-e-o-r-y underscore-c-o-m-m. Hit us up on Instagram. We always are on there. We'll make sure to reach out. Just shoot us a d-m.  It's theorycom.com for our website. See, look, she's gonna yell at me later. We still got some people who watch our show that still use a mouse. Yeah, off road. Yeah. Okay, real vintage. Interesting. Real vintage. I didn't even know, like, where do you buy them? You have them. Yeah, you have them. You just, you just have them. It's online community. Since that Apple was the big fat one that had the clear background with the color and stuff like that. Shout out to Good Day since Carlos gifted us. He did. I kind of stole them. That's not gonna be your last one. We're gonna put y'all on the list. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, most definitely. If you're watching the fruit full, the fruit full is amazing. I made a P.O. box or something. Oh, I don't have one yet.  We're gonna give it. We'll get that off camera so no one stops. But look here. I appreciate y'all stopping through here. Of course, anytime. Don't let this be the last time. Whatever y'all got coming up, promo, all of that. Absolutely. Just come in here and do your thing. I don't even have to be here. That's how much I treasure. We're gonna take over to the show. Do I can sit in the chair? Of course. Of course, man. Black market.