who are you oh that's neat I'm Heidi I decline this is my first year doing this she's new Mark please leave your video off until your item comes off comes on chair Musa if you would like to start the meeting we can start the meeting vice chair Garrett called and said she's running a couple of minutes late minor catastrophe or I think it was probably more than minor catastrophe at home and she'll be here momentarily and I have not heard from board member Fennel so I'm not quite sure of the status there and but we can start without them and then we'll just have to take a break if need be okay welcome staff and members of the public to the Santa Rosa cultural heritage board meeting of August 16th 2023 at this time I'd like to ask Miss Buckeye to well to perform roll call call the order board member Boran here hi board member Carney here board member fennel is absent board member Klein here board member marzlin vice chair Garrett is absent but we'll be attending the meeting shortly chair Musa here with the record reflect that all members are present with the exception of board member fennel okay welcome everyone moving on to approval of the minutes so we have the July 19th 2023 draft minutes before us to say anybody have any additions changes deletions to those minutes see no changes or additions will leave those minutes as drafted okay moving on to public comments this is the time that any person may address matters not listed on the agenda but which are within the subject matter of the jurisdiction the public may comment on agenda items when the item is called each speaker would be allowed three minutes at this time so miss Buckeye if we have anyone who would like to speak if you wish to make a public comment and are attending in person please make your way to the podium chair Musa we don't have any participants via zoom okay with that we'll close the public comment item for board business I will read our statement of purpose principal duties of the board include undertaking and updating historic inventories or surveys recommending designation of landmarks and preservation districts reviewing proposed alterations to historic buildings and promoting public awareness of preservation issues if you're in a historic district or would like more information regarding historic districts please see processing review procedures for owners of historic properties item 4.2 is board member reports if any board members have anything they would like to report at this time this is an opportunity for that if I could chime in this might be a good time to report out on any training sessions that anybody went to I did do the first training and it was very interesting I found it very informative thank you and this this was the training on the Secretary of the Interior said like a three-part series is that correct yeah yeah fantastic I'm so glad that you attended that it's wonderful I know I didn't okay seeing no other board member reports moving on item 4.3 I we have a new member of the board which I'm so happy this this is the first time I think since I've been on the cultural heritage board that we have all seven member all seven seats filled so that is so exciting so I'd like to introduce Janice Marsland and maybe ask her to just take a minute and tell us a little bit about herself and maybe why she was interested in being on the cultural heritage board thank you Brian just to give you a little bit of background about myself I've lived in Santa Rosa since 1984 lived in the JC area 15 years and then in 1999 purchased a house in Bennett Valley actually it's a condo with an HOA I've served as a board member on their HOA since 2004 and have been the president since 2007 we don't have microphones so this is an experience for me and if you know anything about HOA it can be a challenge in 2007 2008 actually two years we went through a major reconstruction three point five million dollar renovation actually and I had the opportunity to work directly with the architects the contractor and the homeowners during the process it was incredibly it was an incredible experience and I'm hoping that that experience I can bring with me here I'm proud to say we have one of the best HOA's in the county thanks to a strong supportive board along with the incredible group of homeowners and again I'm hoping this experience will be useful as I serve on this board I chose to apply for this position to get back to the community that I love I love being here and and and want to be a part of it prior to my HOA gig I served on several nonprofit boards the Sonoma County ad club Santa Rosa Chamber of Commerce leadership Santa Rosa the YMCA and the Norby Golf Tournament benefiting the Salvation Army I'm self-employed I have a company called Bright Ideas we sell promotional products and I've had my business for 33 years thank you well thank you just Ms. Marsland and and welcome aboard and look forward to working with you and I know you'll serve the city well thank you okay we're also going to take this time to put at the other board members on the spot and give an opportunity to introduce yourself to Ms. Marsland and maybe tell something just real quick about yourself so we'll start with a board member Carney yeah my name is Patrick Carney I have only been serving on this board I think maybe three months now I grew up in Santa Rosa I grew up in the McDonald historic district I went to Empire Law School in town and wanted to get back and I get involved with the city so that's why I joined this board thank you thank you thank you board member Carney board member Garrett I'm Kathy Garrett I know Janice really well I've known her for probably since around 85 and we work together on leadership Santa Rosa and have been on a we've done a lot together anyway I have been on this board for more years than I even know one and off I don't know how many terms but it's a really interesting and important board to be on and I'm actually not sure that the city understands how important our board is so anyway welcome we were you'll be a great addition thank you thank you for my carrot and I felt confident that we'll be able to convince the city important of board is though board member boron I think I've been on for the board for almost a year starting with zoom so coming here is a nice change my background is art and I have always been interested in architecture and this seemed to be the way to help the city of Santa Rosa in some way I was approached by Patty Greg a couple of years ago who said we need people so I was happy to say yes and happy to know that an old friend Kathy was here and welcome to everybody else thank you barbara member boron boron member Klein hi the reason I'm here I was recommended to do this because the people that recommended me knew I not I really love antiquities I did redo a house it was a 1930s house that belonged to the Capwell family and kept it in the original tradition and it became an open house it was a you know fundraiser where they go to old homes in your houses is a showcase house and I've always loved old neighborhoods and there's so many here and I'm learning more and more the boundaries and so I thought this would be really a fun fun position and I love the city and I'm hoping to accomplish you know great things in the future I also was on the board of directors in Oakmont I was vice president and had to work with redoing some of the buildings there so I had experience with that and had to bring art into the buildings so I'm looking forward to serving my term here and and and hope I can be of great help thank you so much for member Klein it's it really is wonderful to have all of our seats filled and I'm hoping that they can stay filled for a while because the longer they stay filled the more overall experience the board will gain and the knowledge and the group knowledge and the diversities of the board and that helps us make better decisions for the public when things come before us I know that some of the board members might be feeling a little uncomfortable with some of the decisions that they're going to have to make but trust me in time as we go and with the help of staff and the experience of going through projects on the board your knowledge and your experience level and you'll feel more and more comfortable with the role that I think the public and the city wants us to perform so so welcome everybody okay moving on then to department reports miss Murray and I want to welcome board member Marslyn as well thank you so much I couldn't agree more it is going to be fantastic going forward with seven seats I'm filled I'm thrilled anyways and other department reports I'm going to say the general plan update I know you've heard me say it before I'm saying it for for people outside that may be listening to us right now and anybody in the chamber we are doing the general plan update right now this is the time for members of the public to get involved this is also a time for our board members to review the cultural heritage element of that or the cult the cultural element of that and see if you have anything to add anything to edit any comments I'd love to hear them we'd love to hear them you can view it I think I sent out a link link to board members you can view it if you just type in Santa Rosa slash forward and you're going to find the web page tap on the documents tab and you'll find the plan if you have any issues you all know how to get ahold of me and I'm happy to walk through it with you I also I sent out an inquiry about a special meeting on September 13th to see if anybody everybody hopefully would be available we have some projects coming forward and Christian next to me is going to give you a little bit of an explanation in a second but we we're updating sections of the zoning code chapter 2016 was the resilient city measures that section sunsets December 31st this year rather than do it just rolling it over we're going through it making modifications and figuring out what we're going to codify chapter 2028 was created for again the resilient city for areas that were in the burn zones and it fit the intent was to facilitate a streamlined process for people to rebuild we were hugely successful but now we're trying to manipulate that section a little bit and Christians here to talk to you about what a little bit more about that but that's what the meeting on September 13th is all about where he'll be able to give you more information then and and we're going to want information from you so please if you can if your calendar is free block it out and let me know that you're available and always add that disclosure it's not a sure thing until we we confirm so if something does come up let me know after you've said you can do it if you can't so with that I am going to so I also I have a request if everybody could just open your email twice a week and see if there's any queries I know I see a lot of guilty smiles up there so if you could just open it up and look a couple times a week those those queries will come from either me or Lonnie typically it may come from somebody else but typically that's where you're gonna see them from and also I want to say if you see emails coming in from members of the public when they go to the entire CHP cultural heritage board I'm also copied on those I will respond to those I usually send out an email pretty quickly if I don't you can feel free to give me a nudge and and I'll take care of it and with that I'm going to hand it off to Christian to give you a little bit more if I could just mention also another thing that helps if you do go on vacation or you're going to be gone for an extended time and away from because we figure you're probably not going to take your city iPad with you on vacation but if you're away from your iPad for one reason or the for a while let's Susie know and then she'll understand why she's not getting a response back hello members of the board so the September 13th meeting that we have floated to you is going to discuss streamlining efforts for landmark alteration that would be for structures that are in the historic districts that were possibly damaged in a some type of natural disaster in the future this is efforts just so we can make sure we have something in place for the city looking forward into the future in case a district was damaged in any way these efforts would definitely reduce the type of permitting processes they would have to go through and we would be coming to the board with some recommendations about that process and we would also be asking for some feedback and some brainstorming about that process that's all I have thank you if we could just pause for a minute what Laurie do you need a hand yeah let's just take a five minute break if we can okay I think we're ready to resume and if the roll call could affect the board or reflect that board member panel has arrived I'll make the change to the attendance that board member board member fennel joined the meeting at 453 p.m. and I'm listening you got board member Garrett as well right yes I have board member Garrett also back to you miss Murray I think I was done so that completes department reports board member fennels you're not gonna like this but we we are to item six which is statement of abstention so at this at this time this is the time when if any of the board members have reason to recuse themselves or abstain from an item on the agenda tonight and I'll start it off I have to recuse myself from item 8.1 because I live within 500 feet of the the item any other board members have any abstentions that they need I'm I guess just briefly here I also have an abstention because I am within 500 feet so I'll take that 20 minute lift up and be out of your hair soon so I think what it will do is is maybe we'll take a just a quick five minute break and then vice chair Garrett will be resuming the meeting okay so we'll resume again and the item number 8.1 is the concept review for exterior changes at 635 mill street file number LMA 23-005 the applicant is seeking direction from the cultural heritage boards to board to legalize exterior changes done without the benefit of permits no action will be taken as such the project is exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act CEQA and such nor this flat as the city planner did I totally ruin your name no that's fine but you can call me nor are you nor nor you can just call me nor yeah thank you nor nor before you get started we did skip over item 7 consent items we don't have any budget can you make an official announcement okay thank you okay so we will start with a staff report sorry just give me a second to share my screen thank you good afternoon vice chair Garrett and members of the cultural heritage board the item before you today is conceptual review for a landmark alteration at 635 mill street the project is located at 635 mill street which is within the Luther Burbank Gardens district the general plan land use is low density residential and it is in a plan development district with the historic overlay district the project before you is a request to legalize work done without the benefit of permits the work that was done includes the installation of new board and batten siding replace windows with woodclad windows the addition of a front porch and replace doors with woods and windows and sorry doors and windows with doors and windows that have been identified as period appropriate there is a open code violation currently for the unpermitted work that is listed here and the application is or sorry the applicant is seeking a landmark alteration permit to legalize the work done and we are before the board today seeking comments for approval here are some photos of the original site before the work was done and this is a picture submitted by the applicant that this was the exposed original siding that was found under the siding shown in the previous photos yes this was exposed underneath the siding here in the previous photos in the process of when the work was being done yes this was this was found underneath yes here are the plans before the work was done for the new elevations as you can see they've added a front door here replace the window that was here with the front door and they've also added a front porch and here are current pictures of the site today the side elevations of the site I would just like to point out that at the time of creating this presentation there was no public comment but we have received some public comments since staff has received emails and support of the renovations pointing out that the home was in bad condition before and it looks much better now and there have been comments pointing out that the upkeep to adhere to historical guidelines is very costly for residents additionally one neighbor complimented the new door arrangement in the front of the home the recommendation for you is to provide comments and direction for the applicant in order to obtain a major landmark alteration permit to legalize the work that was done at 635 mill street without the benefit of permits and as stated by Vice Chair Garrett this is not a project and is therefore exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act as it is simply a request for comments and direction from the board for any comments or questions this is my contact information I believe we do have a code enforcement officer Cassidy Anderson if you have on the on the call if you have any questions regarding the code enforcement cases that were open otherwise I believe the applicant has a presentation to deliver as well is it appropriate that I say something now or do I wait till after the applicant if you want to ask some clarifying questions you can ask them now of staff and then I would wait until after the presentation from the applicant to dig much deeper okay I do have a question for you since this was done without permit it's my understanding that we are to treat this as if none of this work has been done and go over the pieces of it that that have been done without permit and then base our our decisions on that rather than on on what the applicant has has has finished so yeah today there's there's really there's direction being given and this is a bit of a sticky situation because because the the the project site was a disaster before this this this work was done some of the pictures that you saw were taken from our code enforcement officers and there's there is a library of pictures it was very sad so neighbors are quite pleased that the property was cleaned up and it needed to be but there's a process for that in these districts so what the cultural heritage board is really tasked with is looking at what was there and determining if you can't get to this what you can get to the goal is to cut it will require a major landmark alteration and the goal is when that project comes before the board that it gets approved obviously so really your direction now if they don't follow your direction they may they may produce something that's you know comparable to your direction so you may not see exactly what your direction is coming you are not there is nothing official here it's comments and direction it's not conditions so yeah I hope that helps it's tough it's very tough to see and from a neighbors perspective especially I saw the home I was there at the beginning of the code enforcement situation and it was a disaster but the the individual that we met with it was not the property owner but the I I think his relationship was real estate agent but I'm not positive about that it was made very clear that exterior changes would be required the wood would require a landmark alteration permit and a major landmark alteration permit so that's that part was not a surprise so I keep that in mind there's a lot of work that's been done the neighbors are thrilled with it it's in a preservation district and you saw the before and the afters so thank you I'm sorry you can go ahead and start talk anyway I think everyone can hear me right yeah hold on one sec we're having a problem finding your presentation give me one minute sure okay whenever you're ready and just make sure if you need us to advance photos just let us know actually if we can start at the back and work our way forward hi everyone my name is Bob Biederman I'm with a company called Groundsville Management we're a consulting firm that helps people with sticky permit issues my colleague Mark Perry is a historical architect I brought him on board for this project due to the historic nature of it and he's on with us from his vacation on a zoom call when my client purchased this property as Susie mentioned it was deteriorated dilapidated infested with rats the roof was caving in the floor is caving in the first thing that they did was they went out and got a building permit to replace the foundation if you scroll forward one slide you can see that there was actually or go one more and one more that's the existing siding that was underneath the asphalt siding that appears to have been installed sometime in the 40s or 50s it was bored and batten that siding's been restored not replaced it's on the home today so the original historical siding is what you see when you go down the street right now you can see in the top photo that's the asphalt siding falling off the house exposing the board and batten underneath so when they saw that during the foundation rehabilitation which was done under permit they saw it as an opportunity to improve the historic nature of the home but it didn't dawn on them to do it appropriately through the benefit of the cultural heritage board if we go to the next slide you can see that there is almost no foundation underneath this house if it hadn't been purchased and restored when it did it most likely or quite possibly could be unresolvable by now it could have collapsed there was was not a whole lot still holding it together in addition to getting a permit for the new foundation they obtained a building permit for complete interior remodel the wiring the mechanical the plumbing systems were all in disrepair they were dangerous they've all been a hundred percent upgraded and replaced the interior floor plans been changed so that the location of the front door previously is a bedroom now which is why the front window was replaced with a door I can keep scrolling to the current so the windows that were put in there a vinyl clad wood window they're like for like under the California building code of window replacement like for like does not require a building permit so that was not done without permits there was none that was required under the code the interior work they did was done under permit the foundation work was done under permit and the other work was done during that time period and the owner became confused as to what he couldn't could not do and he ran a rye of the planning permitting requirements and went ahead and did the remainder of the exterior work so the item that's really at issue here is the addition of this front porch you see in the lower photo everything else was existing it was shown on the sandborn map from what is the sandborn map 1893 the footprint matches with the exception of this front porch if we scroll to the next photo the rear porch is shown on the sandborn map which is what you're seeing here the siding is the original siding you can keep going there's the west side of the house and if we go to the last photo with the front you'll see the porch extension and you see there's two doors the door to the left was the original front door and the original front porch the door to the right is the new front door off of the new living room the door to the left now enters the daughter's bedroom so reality a lot of this should have gone through you before it got done the window replacement wouldn't have required a building permit still should have gone through you siding is original it's been restored I think everybody would have applauded that if you came through ahead of time but it didn't but the front porch that was a fail they did not come through the culture heritage board they added that on after the fact and that's the primary issue that we intend to rectify through this process what's unique in my opinion about this historic district is it doesn't have a unifying architectural style what makes this a preservation district is the menagerie of architectural styles within that community it's the community that's being preserved this home has a particular architectural style that's different from the one next to it that's different from the one next to it so adhering to one individual architectural style I don't think is really the intent or the goal here it's making sure that the neighborhood is preserved and what the owners done to this building is ensured that it will stand for the next hundred years and I believe that is in keeping with the spirit of the cultural heritage district and the intent of this board but I'm gonna stop talking now because ultimately my opinion doesn't matter for anything today your opinions are the ones that matter but I will take a moment of just to see if our historical architect who knows a lot more about the architectural components of this project wants to chime in and add anything to what I've already said mark if you're listening that's you we lost mark that's okay I'm not sure I'm not sure when he got kicked off but I'm not seeing him here can we get him back I do have a bunch of questions for him is it possible do you want to give him a call and see if he can get back on well we're waiting we have the code enforcement officer who's only available for another five or so minutes if you have any questions for code enforcement this would be a real good time to ask can we start now who is the code enforcement it's Cassidy Anderson and you can see her up on the screen now she's live thank you for being available I do have questions about the front door was that something that you tagged and was the original citing actually do you think it was original and was it just repaired and painted yeah so the front can you guys hear me yeah thank you so my name is Cassidy Anderson I'll start there I'm the senior code enforcement officer for code enforcement and I am assigned to this case this case has been existing since 2015 so I'm extremely familiar with the back history of it an answer to your question the door your first question was regarding the addition of the doorway correct correct so yes I did notice that I never sent out a revised notice of violation because in dealing and I believe it's Bob Biederman that was giving the presentation if I'm correct Bob if that was you I'm sorry I missed your very beginning introduction but the presentation that was given it it's accurate so yes that is on the list of violations there's a lot of comparative photos that shows was what was originally there versus the exterior modifications one of them was the alteration of a window into a doorway the porch the porch addition the covered porch for both the front and the rear was on there I have kind of a running list if you've got questions what was the second question I don't remember but I do have a question it was so sighting yeah the sighting oh yes the sighting so originally there was from what from what I could tell back in 2015 there was the lap sighting however what Bob stated when they removed that sighting we have no idea how to go back and see that so I would trust their their hired historical architect to weigh in on that all I am aware of was the lap sighting and then and then the the baton board that they replaced that with beyond that I I'm not an expert in it I'm not a I don't have that that's beyond my scope okay thank you and then on the the new front door was that whole was there was the whole even overhang that was all added right correct that was part of the addition and that's about what five feet deep ten feet deep I don't have the dimensions okay I think I'm sure Bob could probably answer that I can look up their plan submittal because I have that for that that would be a good question should probably be able to answer that yeah thank you yeah that'd be a good question for them yeah yeah I'm hello hi mark yes we have mark hi Kathy hi I have some questions about the new front door and how far that projects forward from the original facade the original exterior but they're just totally inappropriate as you know the star perspective to hear hello I don't understand what you said exactly the doors are in the original envelope building envelope right so you added how many feet did you add for that new door and the and the there was no addition on the original building okay okay great was extended I didn't do it it was done before we got okay so the door was just broken into a wall there no it was an original opening in the wall that they put a different door in for what I can tell yeah okay and what was the decision for keeping the second the original front door as well as the second front door the what I understand was they added a door to the bedroom to have access to patio I think Bob do know you know that the front door was left to provide access to the original front porch which is now private porch off of one of the bedrooms and that's the original front porch as is as it was okay so the porch that's added on to the new front door presumably matches that front porch there are different styles both of them are different styles eight we need to address that so that's so they they okay they're different styles but they connect on the flooring right yeah I mean they're they're in openings they're in original openings but I think they're new doors and the one that there was a restoration element and that is I think the original siding's been restored they had the vinyl siding was added right so the board and bat is an original siding that's been restored and it does that seem unusual to me I I am not the vertical board and bat and there aren't very many homes that are like no no no that's a pretty quiet that's a pretty typical okay just for that era yeah that's not siding I think that the vinyl siding is certainly okay thank you mark does anybody else have questions of mark or the code enforcement I have a question the enclosing of the porch where it looks like a white fence would you say that that is acceptable I mean is that historical looking to have well this this this is the point is are we treating this property as a specific historical a contributor specifically stylistically important and generally if you treat the district as an I tend to treat the district as the cultural resource and our additions modifications or changes to the house appropriate and maintain the sense of the district that porch works it would be allowed according to the secretary of the state of the interior standards for the character within the district I mean that really is my my take on that if we're going to treat this residence as a particularly important historical property then that is not the best solutions but I don't see it as a compelling argument I think we need to make sure the district works I think that's the point it's not much you're hearing me I feel like I'm thinking you have a question buddy to add to what mark was just saying I asked the owner what made him decide to go with that for the porch rail why solid and the reason the answer to that is in the unrestored exterior photos if you look at the photo of the front of the house most of the porch rail had fallen off as did the porch roof previously but the end was still there and it that's how it was constructed when he purchased it so rather than consult a professional and say is this appropriate is this architecturally correct he said this is the way it was previously built so I'm going to put it back that way and and does code enforcement agree with that I'm sorry my everything cut out and I got kicked off and got put back on oh okay Bob can Bob can you repeat the last thing that you said was the original was there an original porch that collapsed on the on the building before the before this new porch got built do you were you aware of that so the porch that was there was severely rotted out of them replacing it it was completely warranted and and didn't have a roof over it too was it no and any no though this is not if everyone doesn't mind I'd like to do a very quick share screen mm-hmm just to show I think I think images are helpful and this aligns with with what everyone's talking about but I think it'll I think it will really help to see this so I'm just gonna very quickly do a share screen so if everyone can see my screen this is what this this property looks like today this is that full porch now this is a before photo so you can see right here on the screen the porch does not extend all the way it's basically was converted to a wraparound porch and now it's covered so again here's a before photo and then the changes that remain which was the addition of in the to the side of the house and the stair the stairway coming down plus it being a covered porch so I hope that that's kind of a little more helpful in understanding what was done here I'll leave it up for a second and I can kind of toggle back and forth but if everyone can see this is kind of I think pictures speak better than we can describe it definitely okay and was that new addition on the side of the house was that permitted are you talking about in the rear or in the front in the front so I'm not exactly sure what addition that this is all part of the envelope or the property so the there was there was no addition that I'm aware of other than the porch addition oh okay the covered porch yeah yes we can hear you mark what what's up if you look at we presented the sandborn maps the last picture I saw was the closest to the original condition the porch on the front gable and was in addition by the owners I mean that's what I saw if you look at the sandborn map it has that same footprint and can you speak a little louder mark please look at the sandborn map conforms to the last image that the planner just said would be helpful for us I can barely see it but I saw it can you hear me yes that's good that's clear now from what I can tell the owner added the porch and the eve over it correct and relocated the entry to that point the entry had been to the left which is now the bedroom right added they added the porch at a new entry my point being that the porch is not inconsistent or inappropriate for the neighborhood but it isn't original to the house it's it's it's your call I don't think it detracts from the neighborhood it makes sense to me from the owners needs it doesn't detract from the neighborhood but it isn't you know it isn't original to the house I don't think it's inappropriate but it's not it's not and did you you removed the original portion the original porch that was at the original front door or it collapsed right oh no that's the original porch yes to the left if you look at the front elevation the original entry is at the left which is now the bedroom mm-hmm they and they left a front door onto that porch then they added another porch to the right and added a front door did another front door so that the porch off the original front door was in good condition and it's used for that it was collapsing in on itself and it was reconstructed in the same footprint okay thank you that was the question and and the others that that where the new front door is that's a different front porch altogether and that's brand new and it doesn't match the old part okay okay thank you it's hard doing this partly in person and partly in zoom with without any sort of plans here thank you everybody for your help do you have a question anybody else I have a quick question for Barbara mark the the railing is a bored and batten around both porches would you find that to be a time appropriate is it is it acronistic is it out of time and it isn't typical the era it would have probably been open but that that that would be then adding you know conjectural features that would be creating a false historicism we don't know what was there sure but were you saying that that railing was that way earlier and that's what he replaced yeah our photograph exhibits the one of the existing condition photos of the front of the house this portion the small portion of the the porch railing was still standing the rest of it's all collapsed except for this small portion and it was sided with bored and batten which was overlaid with asphalt siding got it so thank you I appreciate that restoration that would be a restoration and then is there anything on that photo below the railing here it looks like we got some exposed pressure treated wood which definitely isn't period but was there any treatment for underneath the porch that was there originally it's a giant pile of trash you know it's unfortunate to not have been a part of this project from the from day one when Cassidy first showed up with code enforcement so looking back in time the best that I can do to figure out what what happened and what was there is the photographs that she took which were outstanding and then the reason we're able to reconstruct the process to the extent that we did but what we are showing is the best that we've got got it thank you that's it was the brick original the brick yeah under the railing under the porch I don't believe there is any brick under the porch well what what is under the porch looks like foundation right it's a foundation yeah oh thanks I don't I that's not working on my computer so I have to keep looking at my neighbor's computer and has that been finished off or will it be it's been painted but it's a new concrete foundation that was performed under permit okay thank you you want it finished I would put some plants there you know what I see there's a lot of white going on here because they've painted the fence white so when you drive up to the front of the house it just doesn't have that appeal you know it's I think maybe if the fence was different too or if it's a different color but there's just too much white that's not actually part of our no no it isn't thank you so shall we have a discussion about this and give some advice and input to the applicant yeah and so the advice that you give tonight will also inform staff so that when the project plans are submitted for their major landmark alteration permit that we'll be able to review to see how how their response what their response is whether there's they've changed their plans or they have why they haven't I mean there may be an alternative that they they ask their historian Mark Perry to look at so again your direction tonight and I just want to reiterate it should be based on those earlier photos that you saw not on the finished photos the finished photos should be represented in the plans the advice to get to a landmark alteration a major landmark alteration permit to get this to move forward with a with a with support from the board is is the goal of the applicant does that make sense I do have one more question the original windows were obviously wood frame and are these new are these replacement windows in set the or how their wood framed fiberglass clad windows that were installed in the original openings same size same shape so there's still there's a that they're set back into the window frame yeah thank you and when the project comes in you'll have fully dimensioned plans it will show all of the changes and and they'll they'll provide specifications on you know building materials that were used and what have you including windows and doors so can we just discuss or absolutely the purpose of this is to just discuss it amongst yourselves and give clear direction to applicant and staff would one of you like to start the oh I'm sorry yes I do have a couple questions I'm not certain how appropriate they might be but I need to start somewhere I walked the neighborhood this last weekend and I think that certainly it's an improvement over what was there there's no question about that I was a little put off by the two doors not only because there's two doors but they don't look period appropriate to me and I'm I know that the CHB is not to regulate color but my understanding is that we can give recommendations for historical colors that might blend a little bit more you know your comment about it being white is is a good one I think it it sticks out like a sore thumb and the fence as well you know that if it could be a little more appropriate a picket fence versus maybe they're planning on doing something different with that fence other than just painting it white but and the other thing I noted again and I didn't pick everything to death but the light fixtures don't also seem of the time period as well any thoughts do you have more comments no that was it thank you thank you so yeah I I'm an agreement that the work that has been done is certainly an improvement I do appreciate the original siding being restored I think that's actually a pretty important element to me the look of the what's underneath the the deck is it that's not doesn't look very historic to me at all doesn't look time period I mean it's just the materials wrong to begin with I mean not that you should build with something different but just something some cladding or something to cover that up with I think would make the appearance of it a lot better be it that that that board and bat and railing was existing who knows when that went up but I guess because that was there that you know perhaps that was from when the original siding was put on I guess there's no way to know but I wouldn't say that the alterations that have been made make it not look like the rest of the neighborhood and but certainly covering up materials that that wouldn't be time appropriate would would be important I think what I see mostly thank you Patrick everything there's been a lot said and I think some good points made I know again it's not our job to look at color but when you look at the overall construction and home and there's just something that something else needs to happen to bring it back a little bit and I'm not sure what that is maybe the landscaping you have more comments are you I think you've done a wonderful job I mean I mean wow what it looked like before was unbelievable I can see why the neighbors are happy with what what happened but I the two different different doors it's it's a bit much I would rather see you know maybe a different color on the two doors or or something but it just looks out of place the life's could be could be changed to those are rather modern for that time period the batten porch railing here and all the whole batten and board around the porch area is is you know I guess it's acceptable but it's just it would be better not to have that on that house and I would definitely cover that pressure treated wood that's right there on the bottom of the porch it sticks out too much that brown that needs to be covered be it with a metal flashing or something else but it's a bit a bit much and too much of the bottom foundation is exposed but that could be you know done with with plants low plants and that fence is a bit bit much the color of it which would be different or a whole different fence is that the original fence I mean I mean not original but hasn't been there a long time do you know believe so do you know how many years I do yeah that's needs to be different I mean either do it a brown or you know but yeah it's too it's not appealing for it for that neighborhood it's a darling neighborhood so I would make those changes for sure I want to remind the board I think is as Vice Chair Garrett said that we can make recommendations for color but we don't regulate color so yeah so what I heard to just try and sum it up is basically a thanks to the owner for cleaning up an eyesore and some of the work that's been done but I have some comments of my own and then then maybe we'll totally sum it up I have problems with the size of the porch it seems out of scale for the neighborhood and for the house and certainly is a lot larger than the original one and I have a problem with the two front doors is that going to be a rental or is that going to be is it trying to be a duplex what's going on I think I'd rather I know that I would rather see one front door and perhaps the original size window with a second window and it's in that original front door space I think those are my biggest issues I think to address what a lot of the board members talked about was below the fencing I'm assuming that would support that the support for the porch it's going to be painted if not it will have some sort of lattice over it and go from the bottom of the porch to the to the surface that can also be camouflaged with landscaping but those would be things we'd want to see when this comes back and other than I I personally am okay with the replacement of the windows if they are what we just heard and perhaps you could show us a picture of the light fixtures that are on the house or if something else is being suggested show us those I those actually don't look too contemporary to me so I don't have a problem with them but it would help to see what they actually are and I and to know what the front what the material for the front door is and and how different the original front door may have been that would be something we probably like to see personally I'm fine with the fence people have fences almost all neighborhoods have white fences in historic neighborhoods but I again I keep coming back to that porch the bulk of it seems so out of scale and the addition at the back is I think is totally appropriate so actually I'm surprised I'm usually really hard-nosed so I'm surprised that it all comes down to two or three little things for me and it'll be interesting to see this one that comes back so thank you very much and if you have any questions of us please ask them first of us want to thank you for your time and for your comments really appreciate it and I just want you to know on the landscaping and the front porch facade the owner had every intention of doing that and when he got notification from Cassidy that he was in hot water with the city he didn't know what that was gonna entail so he just stopped smart so you're in complete agreement with the project team on what needs to be done there and our historical architect Mark Perry I don't think he would have come on the job if I didn't agree that we would replace those doors he's very upset about the doors he thinks they're the worst looking part of the entire property so it appears as though everybody involved is in complete agreement so I think we need one of those historical plaques to put outside after tonight's meetings today there was a meeting where everyone agreed and and it I know you said earlier it's not about the house it's about the neighborhood what is about the house because the houses are what make the neighborhood and each individual house is different I live in an historic neighborhood where there are some of the oldest buildings in the city and some of the newest ones and they're all different styles and that's what makes these historic districts so interesting and once we make changes that are not appropriate for the district we've ruined our district and that's why why we have code enforcement go out on a project like this and and deal with it but thank you and and we'll look forward to the presentation in in a couple weeks or months whatever it happens to me thank you thank you before before we finalize I think it would be a good idea for staff to clarify what we heard and Nora's gonna start that off and I'll tag in tag on if necessary but we just heard so a few conflicting thoughts and so I'd like to get some clear direction from the board okay also sorry to interrupt we skipped over the public comment period oh why don't we do public comment now and then we'll summarize afterwards thank you so if there are any members of the public who would like to speak now is the time if you're attending via zoom please raise your hand if you wish to make a comment the icon is located at the bottom of your zoom screen Vice Chair Garrett I'm seeing no hands raised and we don't have any attendees in person thank you so Nora are you ready yes sorry so what I'm hearing regarding the windows and the design of the windows is that the board is okay with the what's currently there and then the new windows that have been put in okay regarding the two doors are are your comments are are your comments in regards to the color or the number of doors in general the number of doors okay and the type of doors so we'd like to see a real front door where the front door is and to see this the original front door which opens into a bedroom have that removed and perhaps turned into a window that matches the original opening which was smaller it appears anyway and that we're in the before photos then the after foot the after photo as a larger window so it seems to me that that is probably gonna verge the second door seems like that's the only access point that's servicing that deck that's in front of that bedroom I don't think that porch connects around so you're gonna have basically an abandoned porch in front of that bedroom we I mean it won't be abandoned it'll be connected to the bedroom but it could be removed too which actually I would like to see the the porch in question is actually the original front porch of the home right but the you know we're not using the original front door either the house has been changed rather dramatic dramatically at this point a compromise could potentially be a half-light door or even a Dutch door so from the facade it had the appearance of a window but they would still have access to use the boards from the bedroom just a thought yeah I mean not seeing how the interior relates to the exterior I know the interior is not our purview but it's hard to there's also I'm gonna suggest that they use some sort of window condition Mark we're having trouble hearing you it's not very clear yeah Mark can you put your mouth right up to the it is a little bit yeah okay the I would like the new front door situation to have actually a period's appropriate entry condition the new the new bedroom has to I think they need to be able to get out to that porch so we'll think we need to figure out some sort of appropriate exiting thing that looks more like a window than a door that we'll work it out we can do it skirting underneath the the porch is no-brainer I think it's pretty straightforward I I'm really sympathetic to Cappy's concern about the new porch proportionally all of that however it's reversible according to the standards you can tell it was added you know it can always be taken down if somebody wants to restore the building that it's a ritual condition it isn't a really stellar example so the livability is important I think to the owners and I think that portion makes it livable it's a hard thing these are delicate you know balances and again it's not Williamsburg I had trouble understanding that so I think mark you're going to need to address all of that and your your report and and yeah it was very hard to hear everything you were saying I I did want to throw out a suggestion on the rather than leaving an abandoned porch if it if the direction is to take the door out and put in a window and the half-door or the Dutch door is not an alternative is bridging the decks so that that's one large deck that kind of meanders along the front so I thought that's what I was doing now it's not it's it looks what I'm hearing is that it's two separate decks there's a deck in front of the the bedroom and a deck in front of the front door the deck in front of the bedroom if you eliminate the door and make it a window you won't have access to the deck unless you climb out the window or climb over the railing that's what I'm hearing that's correct yeah so so that was the concern about that's that's why there was the suggestion for the Dutch door so again you know creative ways to address it I think you can we might be able to get there well in that case my suggestion would be to eliminate that original front porch and and get rid of the door the original front door and are there thoughts from other members of the board this is board direction I would agree to get rid of that that door it just looks just doesn't look like original historic to have two doors like that you know leave that front blue door to get in the house and put a window in where the other other door is the only answer I think maybe what looks so often this picture is that it looks like a front door and maybe if that door didn't look like a front door it wouldn't look so out of place I mean there's lots of homes in these neighborhoods that have decks and porches second story that have door access to them I wouldn't say that's out of the realm but I think the fact that that looks like a front door with the window in it and the moldings makes it look odd so you're saying make a door out of how the siding looks I don't know but maybe just a door that like they had suggested the the Dutch door or maybe just a just a flat panel door I don't know but maybe just so it didn't look like a second front door I either main access door it partly does that because it has them has more molding around it than the front door yeah so the Dutch door you would see more the windows on the top to look like a window because you've got that tall side there that may work yeah and if we do some built-up molding wrapping the actual front door to make it more substantial and celebrate it a little bit more it would take some of the emphasis off that other door and maybe paint that that molding around the front door white so it doesn't stand out I think we're understanding the direction on this item and maybe the door the same color as the siding I think otherwise it really is very weird yeah stands out too much agreed this is not architecturally you know something anybody would have done this is not a duplex right it's not turning into a duplex inside no okay no that the old original front door leads into a bedroom the footprint of the the interior was flopped during the remodel process so what was the living room is now a bedroom what was a bedroom is now the living room so that's why there was the addition of the new front door but now the existing front door allows that bedroom to have access to a private porch yeah right but I completely understand your concerns about the appearance of it as it sits today and I think there are a lot of things that we and by we I mean mark and do architecturally to resolve those concerns in a way that works for everyone are you good are you you have clear direction so maybe it's to look at the front door and what can be done to to either change that or come back with new ideas for that that bedroom area the exterior wall of the bedroom area thank you did you did you know I have a few more questions so regarding the lights I some of you said it was too modern some of you said you are unsure would you just like to see get more clarification on the lights or is there yeah could they bring us either one of the lights or a cut sheet on the light that they be used or a cut sheet on one that they might be using in the future and the area underneath the deck I heard comments to cover the wood with metal flashing or something else and the foundation to be covered either with landscaping or lattice and landscaping is that yeah lattice and landscaping it should be hidden I mean you actually see the siding underneath and it looks very odd or maybe that maybe that's not the siding but the siding in the foundation it definitely should be covered where the stairs are it looks like on the concept review plans that that board and batten siding goes almost to the ground that's not what we're seeing on the actual house so it could be that or like Kathy was saying something else to cover it I believe that's all the clarification I need thank you okay thank you I have one more I only heard one board member talking about the size of the porch if and it being out of scale for the neighborhood is there anybody else who wants to chime in on that to me it seems okay you know because they can put it two chairs there or three or four chairs and still sit out there in the front it looks like yes it's been extended out from the original house but I'm okay with that but I could see where Kathy's coming from because that's not the original I think you know the the actual front porch and the double roof and everything is I'm fine with that what what's really crazy to me is that why is there even a deck or or another porch to the side of the house was that in the original plan I don't believe they're deck on the right you mean with the blue door no a deck on the left the deck I'm looking at it on my which color door are you looking at gray door a gray door I mean that whole area it just seems it's off balance so you have the older pictures in the plans yeah originally if you're looking at the house from the street there was a front door on the right and our pitch our photographs show that the deck really I mean it really wasn't a deck but you can certainly see that there was a deck there on the left side of the house what was added on is on the right side of the house a porch an extended overhang and a front door a window was modified to a front door and so the question here is that what I'm hearing is that new deck is out of scale for the out of scale for the neighborhood I know is that both decks is that just that right portion do other members of the board support that because remember this is going to come back and and everybody's going to have to vote on it we don't need to have seven members voting the same way for a major landmark alteration but the majority will you know we we want the applicant to be successful coming back so if this is speak now and you know you can always condition the project to when it comes back in and through the approval process but significant changes to the deck would be a challenging change for them to make at that point so at this point is if there's hearing people's thoughts is is real important that's a large element to this personally I'm okay with it with the decks I think that I think a porch is nice I think to be able to sit on your porch is a nice idea I'm I am a little confused about the second or actually which was the original deck but I think the reason that deck is there is because there's a door there it's just the inside of the house has been turned around so that's I'm certain they're reasoning for putting up two doors I'm not certain that if if we didn't have a door there you wouldn't need a porch but we are talking about replacing the door with something more appropriate like a Dutch door something that doesn't stand out as much and if that's the case then a porch needs to be there I would think so again I'm okay with the porch situation I'm also okay with the porch situation I think especially because the way they extended the roofline forward to cover that left-hand deck and the way it ties in with the the rest of the the gable end I don't know how I guess you have to bring that roof line back and then it seems to me like preserving that that look is actually kind of beneficial I do agree the original deck is a bit odd but I think without it the roofline even more odd yeah I'm gonna reiterate I'm okay with it but I do see where Cappy's coming from with the two roof lines for that period house but I think since he's already done that work it's okay and guess what what do we do we order from Amazon they need a big covered porch to put all those packages so aesthetically I'm okay with this yeah I I do have a problem with that the whole that new addition of the porch and the five or so feet that it extends out from the front facade the new one with a new front door that is not part of the original plan and we're to look at this as if this work has not been done you know other if we don't look at it that way then I could have gone and completely changed my historic house anyway I wanted to and come and said oh oops you know I didn't know he had to get a permit to do all this building I that doesn't I'm sorry I think that is a problem and I you know short of having that new addition removed I would remove that odd porch I actually think I don't know how anyone would want to sleep in that bedroom with a door that's so accessible to the street right into their bedroom I mean the stairs for the porch go right past the railing of that that setback porch it's just a that's just an artifice to not have to deal with that wall and so one wall has to be dealt with in my opinion and I'm not going to switch my thinking on that it has to be I mean if we're sticking to the guidelines that we're supposed to be working with one of them for me has to go so it could be the original or the or the add-on I so I'd like to see that those porches reworked as my I want to chime in again I said earlier trying to I know that we have some newer members on the board it is a super challenge when you see a house that was in really bad condition and now you see a very cute little house and they did a nice job but they did the work without benefit of permits they were aware that they needed permits for the exterior so something that's very it's approving it because it's already there is not is not the direction that staff would provide making being able to review the required you know that they're the review criteria is it in keeping with the secretary of the interior standards does it agree with our own processing procedures for owners of historic properties does it agree with our design guidelines our zoning code our general plan so we have a list of documents and I'm happy to forward out again another set of links so that everybody can look at that because this is what should be driving decisions I I say this and I don't I say it about myself to my opinion doesn't matter your opinion doesn't matter that's not why you're on the board your what your purpose is to help people get to where they need to be using those those tools those guidelines and also keeping in mind that you know things change over time and to I mean that happens but so the direction that you give should be focused on what their endgame and their beginning game but as though the endgame has not already been completed what would you approve if this came before you the way it should have done before any work was done on the exterior of the home the interior is out and we don't discuss the interior of course we want it to work right we want to make sure there's a bedroom wall that you can put a queen-size bed on and you don't have it showing in the window right but but yeah that's the exterior changes is the purview of the board and looking at this it's hard I know as though the work has not been done yet so I just I want to say that and then yeah if you guys can finalize the points I can run through them real quick again it sounds like there are some options on the porch looks like we're pretty divided on the fence we'll see what they do have a very qualified architectural historian involved let's see what his report comes in with and but yeah that we're still a little bit I'm gonna say clear as mud on the front porch and the the two front doors and you don't have to clarify it but I want to know that if we're divided now that we need to keep that in mind when they come back for a major landmark alteration when they go through all that process of plans and and changing changing the doors or not changing the doors that it's because perhaps their direction wasn't as clear as it could be so thank you is that a wrap Bob are you good I'm good thank you thank you everyone for your time I think we probably need to take about a five minute break to allow the 20 minute elevator and and that process again so if if we could take a five minute break thank you okay we're going to resume the city center rose a cultural heritage board meeting thank you vice chair Garrett for handling item 8.1 so we're gonna move on now to item 8.2 item 8.2 is the cultural heritage board will brainstorm ideas to address work being done within preservation districts without the benefit of permits and this is probably the the third time this has been on the agenda and it's an opportunity for the board members to discuss further at a board meeting you know first to really decide as a board whether there is a problem out there you know with work being done on landmarks without proper process and permitting and then to maybe brainstorm some solutions because really that's what we should be about is is after we identify potential problems is to try to come up with some positive solutions so I've actually done quite a bit of background in the last since the last board meeting but at this time I think what we'll do is we'll open it up for just a kind of a general discussion of the board around this item and clarification I know Ms. Murray is here if you have questions for her regarding this as well as other board members have you know various knowledge and in this area and but I hope that at the end of the discussion I'll probably as well as anyone else make some recommendations for us to to move forward or hopefully move forward and so for the for the benefit of board member Marshall and who was here at the last meeting what we talked about basically at the last meeting was we are seeing situations where changes are being made in historic neighborhoods without going through the permit process or minor major landmark alteration requirements and we're basically you know trying to identify what why do we think that's happening you know do we think it's happening because people don't know or do we think it's happening because people know but for some other reason they're choosing not to get get the permits so with that let me just kind of open up to the other board members for or general comments and I'm going to take a note says to what your thoughts are and your comments so that we'll have you know a record of them and so board member born yeah do we need the microphones for this I guess yeah how do you discover where this is happening where people are going ahead and doing unpermitted projects there's a lot of a lot of ways I can I think if you walk through neighborhood neighborhoods you can see a lot of times if you live in the neighborhood we hear from neighbors who call code enforcement I would say that our we get I'm not code in code enforcement we get a lot of large a lot of large a lot of complaints from neighbors in preservation districts it's not in a another you know residential neighborhood if the neighbor puts on a DAC or changes windows people don't really monitor that but in preservation districts a lot of homeowners are very interested in keeping their home and their surroundings intact so we get a lot of code enforcement so I'm in planning I often say I am not in code enforcement if I see something or somebody calls an ask for advice it's not my place unless it's life-threatening to do anything about it but we do hear from neighbors and I will add that I've I've lived in two different while I live in one historic neighborhood now and lived in Cherry Street previously my experience has been each of the neighbor each of those neighborhoods has had one or two people that are on the lookout and they are they they are very proud of living in a historic neighborhood and if they see something being done that they feel isn't appropriate or without permits they'll usually call code enforcement and I'm willing to bet that's 90% of the code enforcement calls that come I think it would help to encourage these neighborhoods to have an architectural review board that the city can contact so that when permits are requested the one and work is requested for a permit you know plans are submitted that they know exactly who to call right away and those people can be the ones who are actively involved in what's happening in the neighborhood I also think that we need a way to disseminate information in the neighborhoods not just for realtors but through the neighborhoods themselves we used to have a really active representative from every neighborhood that the city knew and could call and and give information to and I think that would help I also think it would really help if we gave people information on the Mills Act which might also help for people who know that there's money and available to help with restorations if they're considered a historic building I don't know too quick ideas thank you our board member Garrett I think those are three really good points others their neighborhood meetings ever or have been just to inform the neighborhood and how they can look out and watch and report anything they've seen that seems inappropriate I think it depends on the historic neighborhood and their their structures that they have I know the St. Rose neighborhood is very organized Cherry Street used to be somewhat organized and and I know the Burbank Gardens was kind of it has been kind of inactive but I think these are all opportunities that I'm going to make a note about neighborhood I mean I think Ridgeway is the most active probably because it's the newest historic district the McDonald district used to be really active it's not as active anymore can I ask a question board member and that is your neighborhood meeting is that organized by the neighborhood is that what you're talking about neighborhood meeting and neighborhood meeting would be organized by a member of the group in the neighborhood not involving the city okay possibly yeah wouldn't be for from us but if you know just especially new people moving in but I know I thought you were supposed to disclose the fact that you are an historic district and you are next historic building in an historic district I'll take that one there are forms and there are disclosures I think there's five different forms when a person purchases a home in a historic district that explains that there are responsibilities that they need to investigate this board used to have specific neighborhoods that each board member would take on and they would be they would keep an eye on the neighborhood and they would drive it on a regular basis or just you know kind of report on that neighborhood and I think that would be something that would be nice going going forward is having having each of us take a neighborhood a historic neighborhood and make that our our special project that we keep an eye on and if you see a weekend warrior project come up we have access to the permitting system and to see whether something you know was done with permits if all of a sudden you drive by a house and there's vinyl windows on a Monday or and and they weren't there before and you know you have the ability to go on the permit thing take a look at that if that's your assigned neighborhood you have the ability to take care take a look at it and we need I think we need to protect the neighborhoods and we need to know more about the neighborhoods and I do think that a neighborhood meeting you know maybe even a couple of every couple years or something like that or depending upon how much you know people move the city does get lists of you know changes to ownership in a historic neighborhood and sending out something that was like welcome to the Burbank Gardens neighborhood here here are the rules and the things that you you know would need a minor here's what an all minor alteration permit is and this is what it would be used for and here's what a major landmark alteration permit is and you know start we need to eliminate the I didn't know I didn't know and the better we do of communicating that I didn't know then we can deal in a different way with the ones that are like I'd rather beg for permission than our rat rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission and that's happening increasingly for whatever reason whether it's that they think the fees are too high that they think it's going to take too long but it is a problem and when our historic neighborhoods you know we start to see them go down it affects everybody and you buy in a historic neighborhood you pay a little bit more but you know that you're getting you know that you're getting something more and and it just it's heartbreaking to hear you know the stories of neighbors that are affected because somebody came in on a weekend and slapped you know 15 vinyl windows in their house and they knew that they weren't supposed to so we have to we have to as this as a city and as a as this board make it so that people can't say I didn't know I didn't know and and that's that's my thing we just have got to whether it be meetings whether it be newsletters whether it be you know something that sent out that happens here in this room that that you know people can come in and from all of the historic neighborhoods all together and meet and find out what the rules and responsibilities are because it can't be that you want to keep the value of your home but you're not willing to do the things that are required to keep it historic so so I was I think it did but did board member Marston where did you have a question okay you're good okay but other board members do you know what percentage of violators there is percentage wise and all those neighborhoods there's no way to keep track of such such thing I don't know but I don't know that there's no way to keep track of it either I'm guessing that quote code enforcement would probably have access to information you know people who build things and when code enforcement gets when code enforcement gets involved if somebody you know that lives out in Bennett Valley they put a deck on their house without benefit of permits they get a code enforcement violation as well their violation is pretty much to get a building permit so they have to you know they have to show us how how it was constructed and that it complies with building code if the same exact same house the exact same situation happens in a preservation district it also requires some level of landmark alteration so that's and I think that that is something what I'm what I'm trying to take notes on is suggestions to either educate that well there I'm hearing a lot of suggestions to educate but I think that chair Musa brought up also maybe some things a lot of times you hear I didn't know when people knew okay I mean so but and then well I know that we're having issues with social media and people saying it's easier basically to ask forgiveness than it is to ask for permission but I think the goal what I was hearing in our last meeting is to to brainstorm on some ideas that might make it a little bit more appealing to do it the right way going in and some just to reiterate one of the suggestions that came up at the last meeting was I'm gonna use a fence as an example a simple fence a three-foot fence in your front yard can be constructed in a preservation district with a minor landmark alteration permit a three-foot fence okay minor landmark alteration permit is only only about $400 so it's not one of the most expensive permits but it's it's subsidized by the city it requires going to the zoning administrator it takes probably three months to get on that agenda one of the suit if it's taller than three feet then it requires a conditional use permit that has a reduced fee for fences and a major landmark alteration it has to come to the board and I see that as being a little steep it's a little it's a high price to pay it's a structure that's not connected to a home so one of the suggestions that came up at the last meeting was that they come to the board on a concept basis concept review before the cultural heritage board is free to owners of single-family residences residential uses I I don't think it's free for multi-family but but for resident for single family it is so coming to the board and getting direction okay and and that's that was like a low-hanging fruit that's something I mean the some of the changes that you see in the preservation districts are fences they're going up all the time and it's easier to put them up and then ask for forgiveness right or they get redesigned and reconstructed and and we're the bad guys but it's because it stems I know our process can be expensive time consuming no cumbersome so I think if we direct our conversation or our brainstorming to how to make that easier our process we can get the word out I mean we're doing so much outreach with the general plan and I'm begging people to just go online and look at it and it's hard to get people involved okay people just don't want to get involved so if we can lighten the load on our regulations and make it easier to get through the process and I think that's where we left off in the last conversation was to try and brainstorm those ideas to make it easier for people to get through the process so and I think I think our goal was not to water down the process as far as changing the you know secretary the interiors and our zoning code and our standards but maybe you know like I said I've kind of broken it into two categories I didn't know and then the other category is you know I know but I chose to do it anyway without going through the process with the knowledge of knowing I'm gonna hold off on what what I have to say just just go back to the board to see so maybe if you can think about now you know we've kind of covered a lot of I don't know kind of issues for what do you think about in a positive sense somebody that does know what what's keeping them from coming and getting a major landmark alteration permit and we'll use that as an example and what what changes possibly could we make that would make it more inviting to to do to do that to come before the board and go through the process of getting feedback of restoring your historic building and and doing it the right way comments I would say shortening our timelines I think now that this is the first time in years that I've sat here with everybody and you know now if we have enough to have a quorum all the time we don't have the delay of not it not gonna have a meeting this month and we're not gonna have one next month but we've had so much delay in between different meetings if we could speed up that that process and you know make it easier I would love to see it be easier to to put a fence up because then you end up with the right fence and you end up with you know but I do think it's still a knowledge thing we've got to start making people more aware but I do think that we need to make it easier and we need to speed our timelines in between the time that it takes for them to go through the landmark alteration process and to get before us as a board that's partly a city problem like it's held up in the various departments and I I think that's I that's for me is off-putting to have it take such a long time to get a permit and it's expensive so I think that's why people don't you know maybe bother doing it because of the time I mean you have to time is important when you're building in and it costs money if you're delayed a year or half a year or whatever it is I do think that's an issue and I think the city is is getting better there there's a lot more staff than there was I don't know how we resolve that I mean maybe we could put some guidelines together for simple things I want to point out that the concept design review process is free to homeowners and it takes about we can get an item on the agenda for the next available meeting assuming we have a quorum okay so we can get an agenda it's writing a quick memo to the board staff does no analysis nobody's looking at the plans the homeowners coming in and we look at the plans to make sure what they've provided us gives you enough information to comment that's the extent of our review we don't look at setbacks we don't look at building height we don't look at anything and if if those certain projects could come to the board under concept review and perhaps the board could direct if you implement these guidelines or these these fixtures features whatever depending on the project that we can delegate landmark alteration you know approval to staff that that type of process is much more streamlined right they have clear direction from the board but do you want to do that for a facade change on the front I'm guessing no for the installation on a of a fence I'm guessing yes so where do those two those types of projects meet what could we do that type of process with where it would be within the board's comfort range to say staff do this this and this and and or applicant do this this and this staff verify it and if they comply they have a choice they can go down a different path and come back to you through the regular landmark alteration process or and yeah or they can do as you directed recommended and and just go straight to building permit so I mean those are the types of things that you know kind of streamlining it it's relinquishing some control at your side but it expedites the process and your feedback you're educating staff and applicant all the way so yeah so we just have to get that word out the kind well it's not it's not as easy as just getting that word out we're gonna have to change we're gonna have to update a section of the zoning code but in order to do that we need direction from the board to do that so that that is what I thought we were hoping to do to resolve you know it's not just notification and tell people you owe this much money and you have to go through this process how can we simplify the process to get people where they need to go without just doing it themselves and asking forgiveness so there's lots of other ideas I'm sure yeah and and I just want to remind the board that right now we're kind of in the still in the discovery phase we're still you know in the fire department we used to have meetings we used to talk about storming norming forming and performing so we're in storming and hopefully we're gonna be moving towards norming and then eventually performing and so but I think this discussion is great because I think we're getting some and a lot of the things that I kind of came up with that I'll probably reiterate you're all coming up with as well any other comments before I make mine okay well I'm gonna make my comments that then I'm gonna open it up to for public comment see if there's and also I want to acknowledge that there was a from the St. Rose neighborhood there was a correspondence related to this issue and it was in your packet and I just want to let go on record saying that that that correspondence has been read and that correspondence is going to be forwarded along with this process for decision-making there's one part of the correspondence that had to deal with sidewalks and we all have sidewalk issues that we probably won't be able to deal with as part of this discussion but there are other elements in that correspondence that we should be able to we should be able to address and one of it was the what we've just been been talking about with coming in prior and and giving opportunity for neighbors to participate in that process as well so so general I think that maybe the board is an agreement that there may be some things some positive things changes that we could make that maybe the you know I'm just going on the base that maybe the board wants to move forward but we'll find out kind of at the end of the meeting and then talking about you know the two general breaking it down into I don't know but I did know that I chose not to anyway so some of the ideas that I had for the I don't know and I call it the the call 8 1 1 dial before you dig kind of program but I think if we can review information provided in the real estate industry the new homeowner disclosure packets identify any needed changes or additions to disclosures for properties in historic districts I don't know if these things are possible at all but it's just ideas identify opportunities for outreach these opportunities may include neighborhood meeting use of social media and social media is huge now I think we're way under utilizing I know that Burbank gardens has a Facebook page maybe some the other neighborhoods have Facebook pages that can be used provide greater distribution availability to the document processing review procedures for historic neighborhoods but in addition to providing to that document I actually read that document in the end over the weekend it was written in 2001 and had some additions put in 2006 it's probably ready to be to be updated as well greater involvement board members in neighborhoods okay which was mentioned with board members being assigned to be a source of information and correspondence ensure building inspectors are aware of historic neighborhood boundaries and are familiar with the parameters of an active permit so that they may be able to identify early on any changes being made that go beyond the permits conditions or that need additional permit or review so those are kind of my items for the I didn't know my suggestions so that first suggestions for I know but I did it anyway support historic preservation and restoration by eliminating the current fees for both major and minor landmark alterations and single family residential properties no that's probably going to go over you know let balloon but I really do believe that if somebody comes to me in the neighborhood and asks about it and I I I don't think any of our documentations that we have including what they get when they buy a new home talks about what is going to cost them to do a major landmark alteration and it depends on the significance of the alteration but I mean if a professional historian is going to be involved writing a report I mean you're going to be up to three thousand dollars pretty pretty pretty quickly so my second item review the concept review process and determining if changes could be made which that was a big big discussion allow greater no-cost access to the board for review of a proposed project give greater authority to the planning department to approve a project based on criteria dictated by the board at concept review which miss Murray was talking about allow the board to identify the supporting documentation such as planned detail historical review report based on a case-by-case review of the project and the complexity of the project and what I'm talking about is like the report from a credentialed historian on the property on some of our properties we may want that but other properties that may not be necessary as a board we may be able to evaluate that you know ourselves or through the staff report may be enough information such as you know it can get really detailed on a complex project to but let the board kind of have some discretion as to how much information during concept review they need to spend money on and bring back to the board allow the restoration of the property to its original historic design to be done with only a concept review and a minor landmark alteration permit provided the applicant can provide proof of its original design and I think of one project that we looked at recently on on mill street in which they had an enclosed porch but they had accurate documentation of how it looked originally and they chose to provide to the board information of restoring it back to its original columns its original design it'd be nice if there was a way that we could encourage that with less fees or less cost because we might see some remuddled properties get restored back to their original nature anyway just I do review the current staff report format for residential major landmark alteration permits to see if there's opportunity to reduce the current plan or time commitment and that's one of the elements that you know takes four months to get through landmark alteration permit is there's a lot of work a planner has to do and in preparation and maybe some of these projects don't need that level I don't know just a thought okay so those those were my thoughts for the two items and I'll help miss morale give you a copy of this when I'm done so you don't have to take copious notes that finally occurred to me as I was over here frantically typing and couldn't get a copy I have a question and it's not just owners of historic properties but there are non-contributors and districts there are also new buildings being proposed so if you could all kind of think about consider those folks as well at what point would you delegate to staff and what have you that would be great and as we discussed in the zoning code the zoning code as far as fees breaks down or the fee schedule breaks down it calls it owners and non-owners and that's something that you know will bring up later it to me that doesn't really describe very well what we're looking at if you're an owner you get one fee if you're a non-owner you get another fee and I probably my thoughts are more towards residential you know single family versus commercial or multi you know family but anyway so other comments from board members before I open it up for public comment okay seeing no other comments if we could open up for public comment period chair Muser we don't have any attendees via zoom and we don't have any attendees in person okay thank you very much and we'll close the public comment so I'll start off with where do we go from here and then be happy to hear your thoughts as well I see kind of three opportunities we can determine if the board would like to proceed with this review and potentially prepare recommendations that and I must tell you they may or may not be forwarded we can make recommendations but we may hit you know legal walls we may hit logistical walls or something that we may not be able to get those changed but but we should you know if we wanted to we should determine whether we want to do that or not and we'll probably at some point if we do want to move forward I'm probably gonna be looking for something to make that make a motion for that the second thing is and I was talking to miss Murray about this today and it's the possibility of scheduling a special study session and the special study session it would require setting a date that we all agreed to it would require noticing the meeting properly and it would require having a quorum for that meeting and at the special study session it hopefully could be a little informal I mean I'd love for it to be back in room 7 where we could sit sit around a desk and maybe have zoom access to the meeting where we could pass papers around and and and more formally see if we could come up with narrowed down some specific recommendations and then or 3 and I'll just throw this out we continue this subject to the next meeting and direct the chair to come up with the next at the next meeting to prepare a draft for changes for the board to review and approve this was as a chair I could invite two other board members to participate in that process I wouldn't be able to talk to any other board members in the process if I always talk to because we want want to violate the Brown Act probably the advantage of that is moving a little more quickly but the advantage of the second item scheduling a special study session is it would really be an educational experience for all of us and for the other board members because we would be talking about the zoning code we'd be talking about pretty much all the elements of what we do but it's going to be probably you know and Ms. Murray could tell us you know based on scheduling and noticing and if that's even possible to to do I don't know how how it would drag this process out so that I think that we I mean that's for the special study session I mean we can put that on any agenda how do we notice that I don't know the answer to that normally what we do for things like that when it affects the whole city is a newspaper ad I would I would just have to check to make sure that was fine we wouldn't be mailing anything because where would we mail it to there's not one property that we surround and and and to send stuff to every resident of every preservation district I'll say that what I like about the special study session is that the members of the public are welcome to attend and doing it in room 7 as we call it which is the old where we used to hold our our cultural heritage board meetings there's there are other opportunities to if there's a big public input if we anticipate a lot of members of the public there are other options for rooms larger but it would be a real it could be a really beneficial experience I think when people understand more but I think I would definitely need the scope of what you would want included in that study session so study session is really educational right what do I know what do what does staff need to be prepared for I don't know if that it's me but what do we need to be prepared for and then as far as the meeting off-site I did a little bit more inquiry about that and I I heard a little ad hoc kind of subcommittee which I've just no enough about about it to be dangerous but where yeah a smaller group could get together but it would also involve a staff member to just make sure that everything that the Brown Act rules are followed so I'd probably volunteer Lonnie for that but but that's my understanding and again this was one of those hallway conversations that can be very very dangerous so I can continue to do research on that option if it's something that you want to pursue and and what I caution everybody on is it's cut what is it called a serial meeting I think where where three members chat and then one member decides to call somebody else and get their opinion and guess what you just got a quorum so so it's it's a very it's not just chair muser that can't talk to other people it's whomever's involved in that meeting and that's that's that's the nice in my opinion so I would I would exercise caution we used to do study sessions years ago and I don't know that it was a problem to do that I don't know if we have would be able to identify right now what we even want staff to help us with but it would be great I think that I think that's a great idea because some of us have some knowledge and and we know where to get the knowledge if we need to and I think they're board members who don't know where to get them you know haven't used the methods to to acquire the knowledge and so maybe all that would be good I and we can we can defer the full scope to the next meeting and and certainly the people that have board members that have more experience are gonna have you know you know you know what your your newer board members don't know and you don't know what you don't know right so there are things I mean it happens and planning all the time I say I learned something you every day just one day I want to know everything that's my goal but so anyways yeah just if you give if you give me this the scope I am happy happy to do my best to accommodate but noticing there may be limitations but we have to notice right we have to post our our agendas all over and word of mouth many of you live in preservation districts and yeah if you yeah is it would it be possible that at our at a future meeting that the last item on the agenda would be special study session and part of that agenda item then would have the scope and the documentation that that you would have gotten in advance and then that would also be available to the public as to what the study session is going to do and it kind of an agenda an outline of the study session and then we would go at the end of the meeting into that study session is that I'm wondering about economy of time of everybody's time if they would rather have just a separate day for a study session or if they would want to have if we go down the road of a study session it to be done at the end of a of a regular meeting you know I'm not gonna want to stand tall I mean we used to stay until 11 o'clock at night that's not a lot of fun no I'm gonna say we can do it either way we have to disclose what what we're doing in it right there's that scope is going to be on an agenda we're scheduled to meet the first and third Thursdays or Wednesdays I'm sorry of each month and we can designate an agenda to that study sessions are typically held at the beginning not at the end sometimes for a study session we'll start we're start we'll start early those are not public hearings I'd have to check I'd have to check on all that we'd have to just verify that that can be done but we can certainly designate or dedicate one agenda to this I'm hoping that we do not dedicate one coming up in September because staff has a lot of work right now with updating the zoning code and when Christian Candelaria was here earlier he explained that he is working diligently to get some processes in place that I know you guys want to be involved in if if there's a fire down town or an earthquake what buildings are going to crumble how how do we rebuild do we attempt to rebuild history that that stuff is what's coming your way so when the when the agenda is posted next time please take the time to review his proposed ordinance okay because it involves a lot of what you're talking about now I know he's looking to other ordinances to get to inform what he's writing and there are a lot of eyes on that there are a lot of staff members participating in it they're looking to how we look at rebuilding a legal non-conforming structure somewhere you know in the burn zone looking at or somebody's who you know had a legal non-conform conforming structure that burnt down accidentally there are we're looking at what the landmark alteration requirements or not no the historic the permit requirements for a new ADU in a preservation district if you look at the zoning code for that and I'm happy to shoot out some links and highlight the areas that would be of interest to you but it's going to require some studying on your part at home you can call me I'll point you right there but yeah if we can not cloud that process because I think that process will probably inform what you're wanting to do now okay it just looks at it when there's been an emergency disaster and we have to get 300 homes built how do we want to do that how does the what's the board's input on that so anyways okay well we won't chase that rabbit today but it's it's it's coming up with it's coming back to the board just two two questions real quick do we want to proceed with this maybe just some head nods at this point or no and then that is study it seems I'm sensing study session might be the way that we want to go is that sound okay and miss Murray is it possible that we could make a motion tonight someone can make a motion tonight to direct staff to set up a study session for this item at some point in the future I think we need to get the scope the scope first I am not clear what the scope of the study session is so I am happy I don't know that I just I I hate to see us put it off for another meeting if we can't if we could go ahead and keep otherwise we got to bring back to the agenda the next time and kind of go through this it's again if I don't know what to prepare for though I I can't prepare the materials and so I would ask the board as a whole do you want to know do you want staff to focus on what's required now so that you would know better what to maybe trim you know make make it an easier streamline process do you want staff to focus on the secretary of the interior's findings or standards and and other requirements I think the scope is going back to the original to discuss causes related to properties not being changed without getting the proper permits and historic neighborhoods and to make recommendations that would reduce the occurrence of that happening and so it's it's a fairly broad and it like said we talked about it's two categories it's it's what can we do towards I don't know versus what can we do and it could involve changing you know make recommendations change some policies some recommendations to change fees some recommendations like say the recommendation may not go anywhere but I think we need to look at it discuss it and make those recommendations so it maybe I'm so study session is usually staff educating or somebody not necessarily staff but educating you know talking well I I guess I shouldn't say that I am still I don't know that I know the causes of why people are make changes without benefited permits we have a lot of people who do it and it's not exclusive to preservation districts but that's where we hear most of it happening and I think that the board's concern is that it's fees and the length of time to get the entitlement as well as the other we've listed a whole a whole list of of possible causes from not knowing better communication but I mean that's that's that's all so what are you what do you want me to do do how do you want me to prepare for the study session I think you just need to participate oh so the study session is you is is a workshop for for the board correct okay that's what I wasn't understanding maybe maybe the terminology is wrong that's the workshop versus study session so got it got it I that's where I was confused I thought you were needing me to come back and yes I I can get that on to an agenda I yeah I can get that on to agenda I can verify it yes if you would like to make a motion directing staff to do that if I have any issues I will report back at the next meeting which will as soon as everybody says that they can be there likely be on November 13th so that is not a normal date that is not that is the second Wednesday of September so I'm hoping that y'all can be there you said November did I meant September I'm hungry I'm hungry so yes September 13th next month it's it's it's pretty much a month away from us and I can report back and let you know for sure on on the workshop if I if I run into any issues with it what what was the date the special date for Christian yeah that he's coming back or they they're coming back on September 13th that's the special meeting special that's it's actually called a special meeting because it's not on one of your regularly scheduled days and you said September 13th September 13th no I'm saying not September 13 not September 13th okay I heard it as as okay so we would just kind of leave it to you as to see if you could find a date out there and well and it could even get bumped October I mean it's depending on because of your September schedule what what I did say and I about September 13th and the workshop is that if I run into any obstacles I will report back to you on September 13th at that meeting okay I don't anticipate any if you would like to go ahead and make a motion you can I don't know that it's necessary I have my marching orders I think we'll do it as a formality because I'd like to have the the board to vote because I really don't want this to be a me issue I really would like you know if the board's not interested in this I'm fine you know with that as well I will make the motion that we proceed with a workshop with a date to be determined regarding what we can do to make it easier for people in landmark all you know historic districts to do work on their homes Lonnie do we need a vote of the board yes we should have a vote give me a second here okay board member boran hi board member Carney hi board member fennel hi board member Klein I board member Marslyn I advice chair Garrett chair Muser hi all right so that passes with seven eyes okay I think everybody's probably hungry and tired at this point so thank you thank you so much I really think you know like say a lot of the documentation with regards to the cultural heritage board and we've got some great people that have been here for a while I think it's it's kind of time for an update and it's at least take a look and I appreciate everybody being willing to do that if you want to and individual board members could they like text you as to you know times of availability or do you need any of that at this point you just want to put it put it out and then we'll go from there I'll put out I'll send you emails if you could check your emails couple times and I will I'll put out some dates we'll do some we call it querying the board for some dates it'll it will be in October okay all right well thank you very much and then let's see anybody else has any comments on the board I'll call for Janet we're adjourned