Welcome, everybody, back to Segal Talks here at the Montney Segal Theatre Center, the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan in New York City at the City University, and it is week 10 for the Segal Talks. We have been talking to artists and theaters from around the globe to share with them their experience and listen to them what that COVID crisis means for them personally as an artist. But also what the state of theater is in their countries and really we journeyed from Egypt and South Korea, Taiwan and Lebanon, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, Colombia, Argentina, Chile and of course Germany and many, many, many, many other places, Romania, Hungary, Poland to hear an update and what is going on with this crisis is doing us and also what it reveals. It is a Shackner sound. It's like a nuclear Fukushima catastrophe, but the roof of the reactor is open. We see the structure. We experience things and of course theater artists have been impacted the very first and they will be most probably the ones who will struggle most, will not get back there. If there ever was a reminder that society often thinks theater and arts is not significant or essential, we have this now, when you ever thought you don't have space and money to do things, right now we don't have this space, there is no money. But still, theater has been as we heard from our talks, a significant force in change and how closely it was to times that we also experiencing now people are with outrage and justified outrage on the streets and what role did it play, whether it was South Africa or Cuba, Brazil, Tunisia, Romania or in Poland. And it is a great privilege for us to listen in the artists closer, I think, to realities the reality anticipate the future and help us to create meaning with them and also tell complex stories that go from go beyond the photo that clipped the image they really show us in time and sit us down to reflect and meditate. It's been a terrible, terrible week in New York City and demonstrations, the ongoing crisis, the murder of George Floyd and again it also has exposed what was already there, but perhaps people are listening closer. We had Joshua Sobol who from Israel who said, you know, it's good to know that a life matters, blood has lost matters and he mourned that what happened and we do so too. We are sharing a statement from the public theater, I would like to read it. Oscar Eustace also was with us, he asked himself had the coronavirus was in the hallways of a Brooklyn hospital not knowing if he would survive or not and I know for that for him and his work, this is also a devastating moment not only for us theater but also the state of the nation. So the murders of George Floyd, Amoudd, Arbery, Tony, Magdade and Briona Taylor have demonstrated in horrific fashion the racism upon which our country was built, we mourn the loss of these black women and men and we are grieved and outraged by the death. Theater is for, off and by the people, yet it has taken us far too long to proclaim the simple truth, black lives matter. We must stand in solidarity with black artists, black staff members and the black community in all communities of color. We must do more, much more to fight the racism that infects every institution in this country, us at city university included. We must recognize that this is a time of change and that we need to be part of the change we want to see. We ourselves have to change in an authentic way and we need to live up to our own ideals. We are going to focus next week, of course, on the situation in New York traditionally we have four, sometimes even five artists from around the world and one New York or one American artist but next week will be the other way. Around we will have Jonathan McCrary from the Black National Theater, Tamila Woudard, James Scraps, Woody King Jr. and others with us. Also the French philosopher Jean Luc Nonci will be in between who we scheduled some time ago so it will be very, very interesting week and we hope you will be able to listen. And we get an Instagram from a New York actor who saw the announcement for the Seagal Talk and said, no one cares about this right now. Your Seagal Talks people are dying. Be part of the conversation about justice and I think he's right. He's true but it's also not true and it's also not right. We do need to care about what happens in the world. Globally we have listened to our friends and colleagues from Hong Kong, Haiti, Brazil, Lebanon, South Africa and their struggle is also our struggle. Actually America should turn away from isolation, from nationalism. Perhaps also this is part or one part of the problem that it is not right to sing that whatever happens here counts for so much more and because we listened to our colleagues in Lebanon, Egypt and Brazil, we have reasons to be even more outraged at the murder of George Floyd. There's a universal injustice and America is no exception to this and America really, really should be because of its history, because the contribution it has made to the world. For centuries the black community has suffered more than others in this country and it's happening at this moment again. Not only the coronavirus kills and kills them next to the police killing, so does the racial politics in the US. Social and economic inequities, poor access to healthcare, discrimination in healthcare settings, greater reliance on public transportation, much higher numbers of job in healthcare and in the service industries and big differences in employment where all factors leading to a much greater burden of COVID-19 disease and death among people of color, much, much higher numbers. Our president refuses to wear a mask like everyone else. He suggests we should inject ourselves with disinfectant. He's hiding in a White House bunker when it gets dangerous or when he thinks or his people think it's dangerous and he suggests that the US military should shoot American people, protesters, the army that is there to protect America, American people, this is the police and then he is holding up a Bible after a police clears away to a church for him with tear gas where peaceful protesters were exercising their rights in their voice for this moment where it is really the time to raise it. So this needs to change and it has to change and this will change and we all have to look now also at the role, what does theater play? What role can the arts play and should play in the real, in the symbolic and in the imaginary and Jean-Luc Nancy will talk to us, I hope, next Wednesday he wrote that beautiful, I gave that beautiful talk. Why do we need art? What lies are useful? And we will hear from him and we need to listen to artists from other countries dealing with civil uprising, demonstrations, authoritarian regimes, censorship and police killings in Egypt, Lebanon, Chile, Guillermo Calderon told us 400 demonstrators got shot in the eyes intentionally by the police, mostly students, to scare them from the police and the military. So in Cuba and Brazil, what happens is significant and what artists found. So we need to know what we can learn from South Africa, from artists like Basil Jones or Cuba, from artists like Tanya Poguera and what theater, what performances did they create, how did it contribute to change, what worked, what didn't work and how did it contribute to a change? The Segal talks also are always about art and making art, making art in the time of corona and decisions we make and we have with us a great young artist, Ashley Theta, who is here. Thank you for coming, listening also in this difficult week and also for listening to that long opening. But I think it is important, Ashley, we have her here. Not only so we need to know, how is it for a New York artist, young emerging New York artist, a female artist director in the city, how, what has their experience anyway, but also what did she find, what does she do? And she did direct the Met Forest by Carol Churchill, was commissioned and barred by Gideon Lester and instead of cancelling it, she's like try to find a way with Zoom and with friends and with coders and new software that developed and created something but I think is a piece of art and an interesting new way of working and meaningful way and to help us perhaps also get comfortable with these new times we are in. So Ashley, first of all, thank you for joining, thank you for listening. So normally I say what time is it? Because most of the time we have time changes, but you're the same, where are you and how are you doing? Hi Frank, thanks for asking me to do a seagull talk. I've been tuning in to a few of them and I think it's been exciting that you have who you've had on and I'm looking forward to the people who you will have on next well. So thank you for keeping a conversation going. You know, obviously there is a lot to consider about right now and I would, I feel very uncomfortable saying I'm talking for you know the New York artists or whatever. I mean I can talk about you know a very specific experience that I've been having but I am in Brooklyn right now at my apartment. So it is 1212, I mean it's been here for 12 minutes. And I am, you know, I'm here so that's that's been you know this past the past weeks you know seven or eight days in particular. I feel like that's the answer that I've been able to come up to to that question. And you know before the before the protest started you know it was just referring to coronavirus. It was more along the lines of you know I'm doing as well as possible given the circumstances and I've found that my vocabulary has gotten a lot smaller for in order to describe how I'm doing right right now. So I've been trying to do a bit more asking other people how they're doing and as a way to to understand how people are able to articulate things right now and emotions right now. So and I think it's really difficult and sometimes impossible. So yeah yeah so that's how I am. How are you doing? Well it's of course a complex time and we all are struggling to find two ways to do the right thing and we don't know as much as the world is uncertain. We really have to rethink everything and I felt strongly we keep up our invitations. We have planned for a long time this week. We had Ralph Tiena from the my theater company talking about the Asian American theater company and how it is for them over decades. How complicated it has been to get a foothold into it and how big the challenges for him now with COVID. How will his company survive? What will he do? He's changing his theater into a TV studio and thinking about VR and connecting to theater artists from Asia and he says it's dangerous. It's but also challenging. It reminds him the time he started out in theater when you didn't know what would happen and what would happen to you and he said there's also of course a chance in there. So where were you when that started? Are you under lockdown?  And where were you when it all started? So we were working on Mad Forest. We had IRL. We were in rehearsal in studios at Bard College up in Annandellan Hudson and we had rehearsed about two and a half weeks I think in a studio. We were rehearsing in the evenings with the company of performers. There are 12 performers and I guess I think it was March 11th. There was another production that was happening on campus the same weekend as as Mad Forest and so in my head I kept on saying if they don't cancel that production then we'll be fine. We were aware of other schools that were shutting down and other productions that have been canceled and I had been receiving text message and emails from colleagues in opera world and theater world and academia in all the different kind of places where I have connections and colleagues and friends and collaborators and they were all reporting how their productions had been canceled or postponed hopefully. And so yeah March 11th Gideon called me and said that the other production that was scheduled to open the same weekend as Mad Forest which I think was the first weekend in April that that would be postponed to the fall and and that the options that we had I mean he did present the option to kind of to go home for you know the for myself and the stage manager were both the kind of professional people on the project who were who are currently had been involved on the ground on the piece you know we were living in this house and and Dylan Hudson together and and he said that you know we could go home and and the designers could be you know could be released could could stop working and he did I will say I mean I hope this isn't speaking too much out of school but he did say that that everybody would be compensated for the work like Foley which I think I bring that up just because of you know in in in a kind of acknowledgement of Bard was in a kind of position where the producers were able to support us that way I know that there are other there are other organizations that weren't able to to do things like that so um so I just so I thought that that was pretty great but and then he also said if or is you know you'd heard of a company in Oregon that was doing a radio production of of something that they were in rehearsal for he said could you something like that and I said that I don't think that something you know mad forest which takes place during the um it takes place during the before during and after of the Romanian revolution in the late 80s and then early in you know 89 to 90 of Romania um so the first act which takes place before the revolution and under the Ceaușescu dictatorship there are many scenes which are written um in silence and it's about the action that people take in silence when they're worried that they're being um surveilled and that the that the words that they say could condemn them to torture death you know or losing job any range of things so I said I didn't think that that would maybe work so well in a radio play though I'm sure somebody could figure that out and um and I said why don't we try why don't we figure out how to do it online uh and he said great and then you know the next call I made was to uh the the design team we had on the project we had a um we had costume design uh scenic design sound design choreographer lighting design um and I called all of them and we had a we had a meeting and I you know and I started kind of riffing on I think that this is how lighting design you know to Abby Hope Brady who's the lighting designer I said I think you could you know send lighting units to people you know to people in their homes and and you know to the scenic designer Obscun Paziofar I said I think that you could um create virtual backgrounds for them to be working with and then to Dan Safer who's the choreographer I was I was saying you know I'm sure we could figure out how to choreograph for this for whatever this frame is uh and Paul Pinter who's the sound designer I was like what would it be like if you were able to incorporate the the um the difficulties of zoom and of zoom audio like the gating issue and even like the lagging issue and try to build that into this the sonic design for the piece now so so you know very quickly we saw an Austa Hosterter who's the costume designer you know there was a consideration of how much of the body must we now costume you know but but you know kind of just started riffing in a very quick quick conversation with them all and with them most of them had had their productions canceled at that point and so everybody was saying you know I think it's perfectly fine for us to continue working on this project and let's see how to figure it out and then that night Gideon and I met with the company of performers and we asked them if they would be interested in in continuing this and I think that what was um I've talked to a few people who were working especially with students during this period and I think all students the yeah this the performers are all students yeah ranging I mean they're a freshman to seniors I mean I think four of them in the company did graduate just you know last month um and uh and and you know we also gave them the option to to not continue with the project if they didn't feel like it because I think that what has been really important during this period is to recognize that it's a big um you know people people are in shock young people are in shock well I think everybody's is in some state of shock and then and then the other thing was was kind of there was a decision that had to be made it's at one point about whether people were staying on campus or going home and so that kind of created a whole lot of other type of complications and um and so you know so for the most part most of them said that they were interested in trying to figure out what the thing could possibly be with like varying degrees of skepticism they were interested in it so um so we had a couple more rehearsals in real life and then um and then they declared the shutdown in the city and I came back to Brooklyn right before the shutdown briefly and you know and again like in being in a very kind of privileged and and lucky position um the folk at Bard they said well you know that house that you were staying in there's nobody coming up there to stay there so if you want you can you know shelter in place um shelter in place there so I ended up going back and doing the rest of the rehearsal for the Bard production there um I also like I told you I've been on crutches this whole time so it also there was like some logistic things that made it you know a bit easier to be uh out of town um so uh so so yeah so we proceeded to do these rehearsals online and that first week of rehearsal online was a big transition and there was a lot of you know really having to listen to people and see where they're at and checking in with everybody um uh and and just trying to figure out how to perform and have a story and how to create a sense of community and a sense of connection when everybody was now you know I mean we had people in Oregon California and the middle of the country and up and down the the east coast so um yeah and then I just came back to Brooklyn um you know because then the other thing that happened I mean that you know like the a lot of details in between but then we ended up getting a you know a a transfer to theater for a new audience and so we just performed that production uh last week and so I came back to Brooklyn uh uh you know this the last week so yeah um yeah so so tell us a bit so you um started together as a group for two weeks and then the shutdown happened people went to their places you got the chance and took it the challenge and others have said no I know many things discontinued whether they were paid or not and I used to let's see if we find a former way to do some that's respectful to that play um many people say it's the most significant play you know European uprising written by a British woman there's a fantastic play about demonstrations on the street and also brutality and killing and what it does to families and so um you decided to uh that that the play was important how did how was that play chosen why that play at this time yeah well I mean the so Gideon and I had been talking about a play for me to to direct in that in that semester for for a while and we'd gone through I think this was the third play that we had considered me directing you know and just for example one of the first pieces that I was interested in doing was uh was an arrestee's which I think is a great I mean I think it's a great play to be done right now um but we decided we decided against that and um and then there was another play that we're talking about so we you know there was uh and then finally kind of in a he had sent me I was I was jokingly calling it my Gideon Lester reading was where he was sending like in the mail he was sending me a book of plays a week or whatever just to read and consider and there was a there's a thiesties that Churchill had worked on that that he sent me in a collection um and and I you know I was interested in doing a thiesties as well but then um I you know having to do with roles and considerations of that I decided that that that didn't I don't know it didn't seem as feasible but in that collection was also an ad for us which I had seen a production of when I was in grad school another student uh and thinking a class above mine had done a grad school production of it and I I don't have a really strong memory of it um uh but I I I flipped it open and I read I basically read you know the first couple of lines or whatever from every single scene and there are a lot of scenes but I didn't I certainly didn't read the entire play because I was in under a time crunch and I just needed to so I said to Gideon I said you know I'm just reading a little bit of mad for us and maybe that's for some reason I felt like it's been overproduced or something and and I said you know maybe that's not really interesting but I think actually I mean there are enough pieces just from reading it really quickly that made me feel like there was something in it that is very much speaking to our time and again it's I guess it's interest I mean that was our time four months ago which is certainly different than our time two months ago it's certainly different than our time a week ago it's certainly different than our time today so um but but our time four months ago there was something that seems to be relevant and necessary about telling a story about a group of people who um a group of you know a lot of young people who uh who who for whom there is an uprising they overthrow a brutal dictatorship and then you know it's not like I mean the structure of the thing is is great because it's not like there's there's a revolution and then everybody's happy you know there's there's disc there is uh there's oppression and fear and the threat of and the constant threat of violence there is an act which is which is all spoken which is this is the second act it happens kind of it's people it's more in a documentary style theater where it's people speaking you know one would say directly to the speak to the audience um recalling the events of the of the actual five days or so of the revolution so that in some ways is the is the most violent act or the bloodiest act even though it's it's people direct audience addressing um and and then there's a third act that goes back into a narrative form of these families that we've witnessed in the first act and in that third act you see kind of the the repercussions of revolution of what it means to be in a new landscape and what it means to be people who are used to an old way of living having to figure out how to adjust to the new landscape and and I think ultimately the responsibility that comes with with having lived through something that has created a new landscape and that to me I felt was really important to be talking about during an during an election year in particular um so so yeah so that's how we came to that play um when we I also had wanted to work with a video designer from the beginning because I usually I work with a lot of media and in most all my work is you know now for sure um and you know there wasn't a budget line for that so I was going to do the video design which was not going to be very sophisticated but I was going to to take it as an opportunity to kind of figure some things out that were interesting to me um and and that was because you know there's a lot that's been spoken about during the Romanian revolution as a time when you know TV and the use of television by the Ceausescu regime but also the the use of kind of amateur television and camcorders um was was it could convey both the message of of the dictatorship but also a message of the uprising um again themes that I don't think have dissipated at all in recent in the in the 30 years since it was written um so I think that that that so when we moved into an online space that actually started to become more apparent and more obvious and was was and then we did bring in a video designer my friend Eamon Farrell who I've worked with on a number of projects um he he well he called me up and he said I saw that you're doing this online who's going to do your video and I said boom me I think and he said well if you want me to be a consultant I can do that and I said well how about well I basically said asked the folk at Bard to be able to add now a video design budget line which which which they did and we brought on Eamon and Eamon is a is also I mean he's a wonderful artist and director and he has a theater company called Anonymous Ensemble that had been doing kind of they've been exploring online performance for um for for a while now and I've worked with them on another project um and he Eamon is a teacher is a professor and one of his students who was uh who graduated this year was a double major in theater and computer science I believe and so so this student Andy uh he had kind of been floating the idea of working on a code to modify zooms so that a computer keyboard could become a mixing board you know um so uh and Eamon said you know they were about everybody was about to go into spring break and so Eamon just said to him if you want to go ahead and finish that code now would be a great time to do it and so our first week of online rehearsals we didn't have the code so we were doing things like trying to trick zoom to take camera cuts like coughing into a microphone so the camera would cut to the speaker or things like that and um I think by the end of the or maybe by the beginning of the second week of rehearsal Andy had received a the key from zoom to allow him to like the developer key to allow us to implement the code and so then we were able to rehearse as if we were kind of like in a tv studio with this technology which made which made editing just more fluid um and made it's you know um made the put you know made the script that I had then re-edited with with different camera cuts more achievable by by the by the person who was brought on to be the mixer um the video mixer so that that's that and then oh and the other thing I'll just say about the play is that obviously you know it's a piece that was written for uh Carol and Mark Wing Davey made it in collaboration with with student actors in England and then they went to Romania months just months first production where we was with students right yeah the first production was the students and those students and Carol and Mark I believe went to Romania and talked to Romanian Romanians and also I think Romanian theater students as well and they and that's how they made that's how they made the work which then premiered in 1990 which is only you know which is in a within the year of when the revolution happened the revolution I mean like it's it's December and that of 89 so so it's really remarkable that I mean to me it's remarkable that they did have a in some ways had a sense of the history even as even as they were living it you know um but that that production was student performed and then that production also transferred to a professional theater and was in London and was also performed by student actors still when it came to the states later on it was performed by a professional company you know by a professional company of actors so I felt like it's a it's a piece that allows for you know a real company of performers they played multiple roles there's a lot of roles in the piece I can't remember off the top of my head how many there are but it's it's it's tens more than tens and we might be like something close to 30 and uh and you know and I could also do it and cast um you know cast with with with uh uh you know basically the students who came in who are interested in the material you know I could I could kind of get you know we could play with with who you know who is playing who and there could be real diversity in the voices of who is performing which roles which I was um which I was excited by uh so yeah so I think for all those reasons that that it seems to be the right piece and then what was really exciting was that as it moved online it became there was a different type of breath that that came to it and I feel in a lot of ways um the the medium of zoom or whatever this is really supported the the content and the only reason I really pointed to the resties in the beginning is that I don't think you know Gideon is is a artistic director producer and also a dramaturg and I feel like both of us knew that if that you couldn't just take I don't think well I wouldn't have felt comfortable taking any play and putting it online it had to be I don't think for example a resties necessarily would have been something that I would have wanted to explore online um principally because of how to coordinate like how to do a choral ode right now to me seems a bit tricky but um I'm sure somebody will prove me wrong yeah um incredible um first of all I'm happy to hear that innovations come out of a university setting that's what we all think it should be it was for a long time I think in Germany in the 60s or 70s students theater a student was significant um the Peter Steins and Sadex and pie minds of the world are world student festivals um the decent school where I was um the rainy polish and shishi pop and remedy come out and and I think um this is now also a signal that an innovation comes out of a college setting or giving space and making suggestions but ultimately leaving artists in him you anticipated something that's atmosphere what you felt that display was right and you were right and perhaps it was even much more pathetic we hope when the elections come up you know that things also will change in a dramatic way um and I like that you had an artistic idea first that you had an aesthetic idea and then you brought in a team of a software designer so you have a traditional old form of centuries old upstairs and um and then you brought it together with zoom which um is a way a new technology it's a 21st century way of communicating uh that we all are experiencing I never had a zoom session before I started my talks here but now we use it and it's almost like an email seems like an old thing of the past um so um what why did you think um the zoom aesthetic would actually help to communicate the the essence the soul the message of the play uh I don't I mean I you know it was the only thing that was that was available to us you know I mean that's kind of so but I think that um so the aesthetic that we layered on top of it was the same aesthetic that that I mean it was interesting to see what of the design choices we were able to translate into the into the virtual space so there was you know in the scenic design world there was a whole I've soon had come up with a really beautiful stage scenic design and it was it was really elegant and also kind of took us through the three different um psychological and poetic and spaces of the world of the pieces we as we saw it and you know so the first act was designed in the theater to be performed against a big uh you know kind of brutalist cement wall and the performer's had I think six feet of space from the wall to the to the downstage edge so we stage the whole piece in that kind of in that space and then over the course of the second act the wall would would rise and and we would use that wall as a projection surface to to project some archival footage from the time mostly because I felt like our audience doesn't have you know in when this was happening even an American audience had more of a relationship to the events so I felt like uh you know we maybe needed to do a little bit of filling in that gap for to bring our audience a little bit more into that headspace and then and there would be a whole movement piece that happened kind of behind the wall as people were direct audience address you know with microphones to to create a kind of vocal intimacy um to the events of the second act and then in the third act the the wall is revealed and the the space um or sorry the wall comes all the way up and the space that is revealed is a hospital waltz bucolic ballroom kind of setting so it feels a little bit like an over-goddy party or you know like you just got access to some type of you know beautiful ballroom and you don't quite know how to decorate it uh the right way and it just feels a little sickly and so that's where the third act was to take place um so originally when we moved online I've soon started by kind of taking the the model renders and and making those into virtual backgrounds and we realized that that doesn't help the audience understand who's in the same room together or anything like that so she so she went ahead and designed uh you know ended up thinking I think more in terms I mean at one point at you know two in the morning or whatever I get a text from her being like this is great it's like I'm a production designer you know and so so she ended up designing something a bit more in that with that I I guess but she made I think we ended up using something like a hundred thirty or hundred fifty different virtual backgrounds that she created for each of the students to put up manually over the course of the show that that are you know this is a room and and then and so these characters are clearly in this room and they're in this world and then these characters are in this world together um and uh but the thing that we were able to transfer were ideas about overall kind of ambiance of each of the acts or color temperature things like that all of that was able to transfer from the iRL production to to her uh to her virtual back backdrops and how we ended up shaping the the bigger aesthetic sense of the of the world the so so tied into all of that was um when I was talking when I was thinking that I would make you know have some video design there was an idea of of it being the kind of you know 80s 90s uh VHS you know kind of more old school I guess television aesthetic um and when we started working completely via video that that was a layer that E-min added to everything so so the um what is broadcast out to the viewer is in a is in like a 4-3 ratio which is that kind of more you know instagrammable type of uh uh ratio and with with different types of kind of tv filters put on top of everything and and this is something that I've done in other projects where the the chances that there could be a technical glitch or maybe vocals could get out of sync or things like that could happen is add different type of filters or or put some type of something that's glitchy into the visual aesthetic so that it become it makes the medium more forgiving for when those things actually do happen so um so yeah I mean the the thing of zoom I mean I didn't think that the you know these these cameras that we are working with have you know don't have a great depth of field and there's so the so everything becomes two-dimensional in a different like in a very extreme way very quickly so we kind of had to rethink everything about what we were doing the scenic design had to become that way accordingly we started thinking more in terms of collage aesthetic and and kind of the cubism you know how do you break things apart and and lay them out like this rather than doing anything that has to do like that you know uh so and I think even in some respect like Dan's choreography changed in that way you know things ended up being a lot about this and less about that although there are some places where this becomes a really interesting place to look at as well um and there are a couple of places where like you know the actor will put a bottle like right here and that does a different thing but different than in film you know so that's it became interesting to see how is it different than film and how is it different from theater and how is it really its own thing and then you just try to explore what was interesting about that and and I think that you know kind what's interesting to me also is to to take uh to take the exploration to the to the edge of where the technology kind of starts to break down and then you can find the art in it I think or I mean because I guess it's the human fallibility that gets put into it at that point so but but then I guess the thing that that zoom does necessitate and that also the larger reality of being in isolation necessitates is you know we couldn't nothing could be made out of the recognition that nobody is in in a space together so for example the scene where two characters hug each other uh how to do that was you know was a big was a big question and we you know we did a thing that that I think weirdly is is touching because it's it's not performed out of the the acknowledgement that nobody can be together so what does it feel like to if I can't hug another person is it at all satisfying to hug myself and have that kind of felt experience maybe transferred in some way um and the the scene and then when we but then and then also when we did the the works when we did the production at Tafana in the course of the month between having developed the piece at Bard and then developing it for Tafana and this this coder and I will say the other thing you know you said about the college you know the relationship of an academic institution to creating work I mean I I just I find it important to kind of underline that the the the other thing that we were able to do that I feel like a lot of academic institutions aspire to but it's it's not always seen is a symbiotic relationship between different um departments and specifically in this case between computer science and theater um you know Andy was I mean we've had conversations about the thing that he's he's coding he's basically coding for the problems that I'm creating so so you know the person with the visual idea or whatever is saying this is what I would like this thing to be able to do and then and then creates a problem that then he can go and try to solve right and I think that that is a thing where um I I've felt that too often in academia everything is so siloed that that people are either solving problems that already have solutions to or having to create problems that don't need to be solved you know so um so that so that was a really and it is true that I mean if it I frequently thought that we were very very lucky for this to be happening at Bard which has some type of support you know financial support and also they had the staff support because the production team was also they immediately jumped on the problem and they you know and they said okay well we can figure out how to send duplicate props to these different parts of the country we can figure out how to send green screens to everybody we can order Bluetooth headphones for everybody and send it out and they um and without you know without that support it wouldn't have been the the thing that it ended up being I mean I do think that there's a lot that people can do without a production team behind them um in this medium which I think is also important but um but we were definitely lucky that we had that we were in that position exactly when this this happened um uh oh so all right but the only other thing I wanted to say was in that you know so in the month between doing it at um at Bard and then doing it to Fana Andy had figured out Andy and Eamon or had figured out how to basically create a situation where a performer could be live performing and be in the same square as another performer and so there's a scene that happens late in the play where a ghost appears and um and so we called these two actors in to do a rehearsal before like to do a tech rehearsal and they didn't realize what we were doing and so they're you know one of them is in uh one of them the thing is in upstate New York and the other is in a different part of the state of New York and so they're you know so they're performing the scene and it has to do with the ghost basically asking a nurse if she would like to go with him um and he kind of and and so they were performing the scene together and then he kind of looked to his computer and he started freaking out because he saw that the two of them appeared to be right next to each other and it was this really incredible moment where also all of us realized that we haven't seen like two people in real time being in the same space together in in you know at that point like almost two months so that was kind of an amazing an amazing moment um and also very exciting for for the implications that that that could that there could be but i but i also think that the i was thinking the play ended up fundamentally conveying something that had to do with people really trying to connect with each other through space and time and all the obstacles that are being put in front of them whether it be systemic or uh or physical so and and so that all obviously transferred as well we also i was also very lucky that um i did you know through most of the process um i was able to kind of have a short email um exchanges with carol Churchill which was really which was really um yeah yeah like she i mean i went i i had yeah i had emailed her when we were when we were hoping to make the move online just to to make sure that it was something that she felt made sense or would be at least in theory supportive of and she was and and and it was really that was that was really nice um yeah yeah how how incredible um i mean you touched already on on so many things you know how to be together in one room one space when you're not together but zoom found a way with um altered code that uh zoom company collaborated with his theater artist to change the system basically of the code and to adapt it um that you found a way to express or to create a piece of art and i think what you did is a piece of art and to express um out of necessity not by choice um um something that the play um in a way is all about and um and i can also see a line i see you know the work of caster on the folk spinner there's work you worked i'm sure was Robert Woodrow of your work with Jay Scheib Daniel Fish and i saw your Marie Louise Fleischer the purgatorian Ingolstil where you had the video work the way it was also i think students acting students merry mount i think yeah i remember right when it was close to the aesthetic also you created for there so these for all like in the good sense experiments research finding a way they filmed each other it was so much about the other teenage um so densely highly emotional charged moments and but then you created the met forest which in a way for our viewers i of course i should have told you prepare a clip and show it to us which is not possible anyway but it was like a graphic novel setting you know was like photos manipulated in some kind of a drawn line of a pop art uh it's in recalling early computer games recalling early early mtv um but on the other hand the fastness of it the shared screens um a bit like the houses are up due in some of his plays when he had parallel happening in the on stage he was also a visionary in that way so you um you created something that um somehow is a new form do you think and i would like to have an honest as i do you think this was a better production than it without zoom um uh before i address that better okay i'm gonna write down better so i don't forget that word i would just like to say that the the the thing that i think is very important about i mean because of the tech and and the code and everything we were able to create the visual experience of people maybe being in a space together but one of the really important things in working with the performers that that you know that i just i i i'm i continue to be incredibly impressed with with their ability to do this is is how they had to have an intense amount of energy in activating their imagination in order to put you know their colleague who they were you know very close with a few months ago right here so that they could really you know and we we you know we had actually the text and everything so they directed this action of you know to seduce right here and then and then they could play put their other colleague right here but that you know that kind of energy because at first there's this whole conversation about what is it to act in in this type of of void um and and so there are a lot of you know i was referring them to very early silent films where in a lot of cases it was a performer who's alone behind the camera with maybe a director yelling at them off camera you know but and and there is nobody off off camera for you to perform with other than like the you know than the leg of the camera or something so i think that uh so i but i feel like the the activating of the imagination is also something that that couldn't happen um that made this possible like the thing couldn't have happened without that with it with the active imagination of the performers and the immense amount of energy that went behind that and then also the kind of like trust and imagination of of all of the collaborators including the production team um uh and i also think that's just something that that i'm i'm hoping that this period allows as an opportunity is for everybody to just to be much more active in their imagination of what i mean that's kind of the the most important thing about living in an unknown period i think is that i mean it can either be dangerous and uh and arresting and um you know and and can just kind of paralyze you or it can be something that a lot gives you gives you the opportunity for hope in a way so um and they did an incredible job of of of doing that and staying in that in that world while while they were performing um i mean as far as it being better you know i i think that um i i don't know i quite i quite liked i quite liked what we ended up making i mean i i actually i actually did and and there was a bit of you know trying to convince some people to to watch it um i mean i think even with you yes um uh which thank you for watching it um and thanks everybody who watched it because but but i think um i think is i don't know i i because you know i think that whenever i'm making something i'm never really able to to see what what i think it you know what i think about it until it's it's pretty much over you know or even beyond over so i'm not entirely sure i do i do think that the scenic design would have been pretty great um i think that the sound design was going to be really great i think the i mean yeah i think all the elements would have been really great um but i think that i don't know there's something about this this form that i really do actually have an affinity for and especially in the very you know to me it was important to to make this thing well first of all because i just don't know what else to do i mean i've always only ever i just i just make a lot of i make a lot like i'm very regularly in a rehearsal room in some capacity and um so i just didn't i really couldn't imagine going into isolation and not having something to be making i mean i thought i just you know i know a lot of people are and have done and and i'm doing that more now but um and i also felt you know in my experience you know making theater some form of theater making something is you know has is how i basically survive uh you know and and i felt like it probably would be very useful for the students in particular and for the entire design team you know anybody every and the production team if we had something that we could work on while we were going into isolation so so to me it was kind of like this you know this is how we survive something is we just is we keep on making things um and but i feel uh but then but then i also felt like it was that and you know and then the next thing became can't is it something that's viable like is it something at all that people would maybe consider watching because i also think increasingly right now as far as the state of theater i mean i think in particular in america um obviously there are a lot of massive changes that that hopefully are coming um but i but i do worry about i do worry about how long um we will have to be in some version of isolation and you know when audiences will feel comfortable coming back to the theater and how dependent upon we are our audiences that makes things complicated so i kind of feel as you know in an existential kind of way that there is some necessity to to to acknowledge that this could be a version of theater that that producers could potentially get behind and that audiences could potentially get behind and performers and designers could potentially get behind because i don't know how we survive we as the theatrical community survive this period especially if you know depending upon different projections we could have to become very flexible with going indoors for a period of time you know off and on for uh for for for an extended period of time so um so for me it was like can we make something that's at all viable and i've been incredibly heartened by talking with a number of theater makers who saw it and you know were were inspired to start thinking about how they could also make for something like this this form um and and and i've also said you know those students actually the students in in mad forest you know they still had to finish school so they were still making projects and they've made some really really wonderful works since then and and i've seen some of it and i also had have started to have conversations with them about about what really this form means like what is it why does something feel live on this and why doesn't it feel live why does your answer um and there's something i mean so it's some of it seems ineffable but but i feel like you know on the wednesday afternoon showing up to fauna we had a tech malfunction so we had to go offline for i think it was like seven minutes and um and that i mean people felt like that was an indication of it being live and also one of the things that i asked when we moved online was that we have a chat feature going so there's so the audience is able to talk to each other about the show and and i'm taking all that chat not all of it i'm taking some of the chat that i feel would be useful to the actors and i'm dropping it into their own feed so that they can have some sense of the feedback from the audience so they don't feel like they're only performing in a void so i actually feel like i mean the chat feature i guess is kind of controversial i think some people really don't like it um i myself don't know that i would be an active participant in the chat feature in in other experiences i have been and i haven't been um but i think um but but what i have known is that that does create a feeling of a sense of community and just people you know audience members being able to talk to each other in real time makes them see that that it's that it's a live experience um and and i do and also you know we did implement some you know very kind of you know theatrical kind of performance gestures like having one of the performers um bill he he he costume changes into the role of the grandmother avisto like in front of the camera and if you were to make i mean maybe if you were to do something in the can you wouldn't necessarily show that you know uh and there are enough like little glitches here and there that i think give it the sense of um of of liveness and i and i do and i do feel like there is there i mean i've been you know i've done i've been taking on a bunch of things online um some some performances you know some you know your talks um some i've been doing a lot of meditation so you know like online meditation sessions and there is something that just i don't know i don't know if it's if it's clear if it's if it's as simple as me saying to myself in my head and reifying that this is happening live that makes it feel different but i do think that there is that there isn't energy that forms around a group of people even if they're spread out all literally all over the world acknowledging that they're that they are experiencing something that has an emotional reverberance at the same time and i and i also i mean it also makes me fascinated by why is that so important why you know why is that the substitute for being why is that right now something like a substitute for being in the same space together uh but yeah so so but i'm but i'm very happy that these students are actually having conversations and real thoughts about what the media is what does it mean to talk directly to camera versus talking to somebody off camera you know what like who are you implicating if you speak directly to camera um so that uh and you know and these are undergrads and these and what that means to me also is that they're taking it on as a real kind of form because it's all that's afforded them right now um to some extent and and and and i think that that's really exciting and i think that that should be i think that it should be acknowledged and uh because it's not you know i mean because it can it can be taken legitimately if it's um if it's dealt with legitimately you know um oh so better uh i don't i don't know it's different no it's uh it's true it didn't feel like a compromise it did not feel like a filmed performance or you know going through some emotion i think you as you said you found found a form it is astonishing to think that you were in confinement and i think you had a fracture in your hip you couldn't even move but you created a big a big work with i guess i don't know 20 people involved as a new form of production using media manipulating software and media teaching your students and actors about what means to have performing media but also the media itself and and still trying to find a way to to give a meaning out of that play that has something to say it is an election year you know you say this is something and perhaps that message in one way got came through very very clearly on i think i'm also and to me so let's talk about that software all that form um will that be uh is every drama department and america calling you uh will that be shared can uh Ralph Pena at my theater company is there say can he because he said two days ago he said we change our theater under tv room i got a little bit of money i cannot afford not have to work with my people i do not know what to do um i'm sure we will find something you found something will that be shared um and what what is the what's the idea behind it will that you know uh that were the first to do it as far as i know um so but what will what will happen to this um form that almost is like and not acting way of acting or erecting you know we have all these different schools of view point and brechen stanislavski and now maybe there's the most met forest way of doing something but uh how is that what's what's on your guy what's on your mind um uh so i think that it's um yeah i mean it you know we do we do talk about it quite a bit like the team does uh i mean i do there are let's see um the well so everybody knows i mean if anybody is tuning in but um not if sorry frank um we are going to be we we're supposed to have a panel with the the kind of team of mad forest uh talking about how we made it um that was going to actually happen this week but we postponed it um uh for um i'm not entirely sure until when but uh but we postponed it for now and uh i think that there i think that information about that can be found at bards website if people are interested in kind of the a longer form conversation also with the entire team because like i keep on trying to emphasize that that it is the the result of an entire team working on this thing that made it possible and a bunch of people who were not i mean they were they were scared or overwhelmed like venessa the stage manager she kept on i mean she she figured out how to stage manage with no stage right i mean this is so she you know she also you know uh uh i mean in some i mean maybe invented it too but she but she created a way of working um without being in a room with people you know she she called the show i think she had at one point she was like you know we had different she had different you know lines that she had to be listening to and at one point she was like you know i do not have three ears so you cannot add another com feed into this you know into this space so um i mean so it's just it's really uh so that in conversation whenever it happens i do think will be interesting um but uh but one of the things that we've talked about with you know with for example in anticipation of that panel is for i know that for for a bunch of us there is something that's really important about getting the getting the idea of the technology out there um so that especially smaller companies don't feel that there is a bar to entry in order to do this type of work because like i say to me it's this is like it this is an existential thing within the community is that we i mean i feel like they're um i'm absolutely respectful of people who are making a decision not to make right now and who are kind of um you know i heard and uh you heard you interview and and this idea of zots and the and the kind of gathering up energy before making the move i absolutely agree with that as well Virginia Barba yeah who actually will join us in June 25th i think yes and everybody should tune in for that yeah um uh so so i i mean i absolutely believe in that and i respect that and i also respects the kind of um the the hesitation around kind of making things just for the sake of making things or making things for the sake of like putting a flag on the moon or something along those lines um this happened this felt like it happened very naturally as far as you know the the medium uh works with this let's just keep going this seems to be the next right you know it seems to be the next obvious step to take with at every single step of the way um so and again like for me looking further out i i just see you know many many artists who i don't i don't know how we survive this um if if there isn't a way to make something and there are many small companies who who wouldn't won't be able to survive what looks like an extended period of not of not producing um so for for me it seems really important to get the technology out there or the idea of the technology out there the idea of the acceptability of something like this form whatever it is and and you know what i did i mean it's very much like you said it's very much tied to an aesthetic that i already am interested in based off of work that i do in the real world um and influences you know other people i've worked with and everything so um so there are plenty of ways to do this um and and i you know a young director just sent me work that they did on a production and they took a whole different aesthetic way of working on it and they used a completely different technology to in order to do it so so there are plenty of ways to to to do this this type of work and keep it relevant keep it exciting and keep it necessary um so so i feel like we're we're interested in in promoting the idea that it is possible and that uh you know smaller companies like like my if they're i mean i think that that i um i yeah i feel like having conversations you know keeping the information out there is is what's important um i also do think it there becomes a bit of like you know to what extent like um uh i i mean i haven't been approached to to direct anything um yeah tell us a little bit i see i want to ask you that as far as i know last last year you are a great director i think you didn't as far as i know you're direct had your job as a young woman director how i don't know what came now out of this how how is it for someone to break into the industry i mean we here of course right now you know what is there that the posting from griffin matthews about broadways racist his experience at art with diane paulos she also answered him would love to have both of them here and talk about it but um but the idea that it's impossible really to to in a way to get through how is it for you do you get offers and is it uh did anybody after this big review which you also got from the new york times have you been approached by anybody uh no i mean i i um i have no but but there's also a pandemic right so i'm not you know um i i and that's where i i it became very apparent to me that um that that there's a lot of i mean the people that there isn't um you know people are i think being very i mean now people are being very still and reflective for uh for a whole other reason um which yeah well and um but but i but i but i you know don't think that people are producing a lot right now or i i mean i i don't at least i haven't seen a lot of that right now um and and there had been statements you know about theaters not producing until um i mean i feel like our that you know the guthrie until like march of 21 i think is what what i'd heard at one point so um so and that's why i mean for me it's it's more important to just to try to propose options for making work right now for for theater artists and i think the other thing that's interesting maybe is that theater artists who uh in a lot of ways is a multidisciplinary kind of artist can be taken can like what what it is that defines what is to be a theater artist can maybe expand right now you know um that uh that we that we can take on um multimedia work and you know that that all the tools that have made us survive in different circumstances in like downtown theater circumstances where you're just kind of trying to figure out how to make things work without a lot of resources um all of that allows and i mean for i know in my case and in a lot of the artists who i respect uh a lot of theater artists who i really respect also have a pretty healthy dose of uh consideration of music and performance art and and visual art and and all that type of work is you know a real um you know multiple media so i do think that um i think that part of it is is us uh reimagining how we're how we're taking space as theater artists in the larger artistic landscape um to not kind of uh make it an idea about specializing us on to you know either just Broadway or off-Broadway or you know but that there are other places where we can um occupy and make and and uh write stories and tell stories uh and give voice to stories um so uh so i i try to i mean that's that's what i'm considering right now is is how can i i mean i'm talking to collaborators about work that we want to make we don't you know have there but there's no way to plan for it like there's no uh we'll make this work at this theater or we'll get this grant i mean there's just no way of planning for things as far as i know right now or i haven't figured out how to do it so so i'm working with a lot of collaborators who i've had you know traditions of working with before and and just you know continuing to think of um what the development of this project will look like the development of that project will look like um so uh yeah um i mean i've been you know i've been very lucky that i have you know i've worked with a lot of directors who i deeply respect and who are incredible mentors and colleagues and and and now and now friends um and i have a i think that and i have and i've made a lot of works that i think are really great and have been you know and have been recognized um i think that like i think that what a director does is i i think that it's confusing sometimes to to a lot of people actually so um so yeah so i mean uh if anybody wants to hire me uh that would be cool but um well you did get a review and as the the the opera that the contemporary opera you you directed and the new opera was the line it's one of the first masterpieces of the 21st century so refer to the music but also to the staging but still um for you to to to break into the world is the new york theater system how it's set up working is it working for young female directors what is your experience in surviving in new york as an artist um i mean i think that the new york system is really difficult for for for artists um periods so um and i think that that you know the that has there's just uh yeah and i think that the um i feel like there i mean these are not new these are not new ideas or anything but i think that there's a um i think that there's there's not as much nurturing of of local artists as as you know like there seems to be a bit of presenting work that has been proven somehow and i guess by proven that means um has his audience interest and um and i think that maybe there is not a lot of risk taking um in the and by risk taking it by subject matter and also by the voices who are creating work um and i do think that there's a bit of um i mean i found it difficult to move from i found it difficult to be considered like a generative artist as a director i think that that's something that um that isn't considered uh a lot in in our in our system uh and i do think you know and i think that with uh i think that funding resources become smaller and smaller and i think there isn't um i think that there it's difficult to figure out how to get the funding to make your work in order you know it's just kind of catch 22 um but i also think that that's a larger um i think that be i think that being an artist period in in in the in here is is very difficult um and you know and it's it's a big you know there's like a lot of you know it has to do with kind of values and also what we um what we what we hold up and what we cherish um so yeah i don't know i try not to get stuck i mean i i will say that one of the things that i've been thinking about is that there's a lot you know doing something online you don't have to pay for real estate yet necessarily so so there is um you know i've been you know i think that there's an opportunity again if if something like this is somehow taken seriously meaning that people are interested in seeing it um and it can address you know there's something about the decentralization of of the of the work too and where people can make work from then then you know you can make a work without having to pay rent which that could be that could open up a world of possibilities rent for a theater i mean so um so i uh yeah i i mean i just um i feel uh i don't know i feel like it's you know it's it's it's really hard but it's also i mean it's the only it's like what i know how to do and i think that i am actually you know i don't i think i'm good at it and so i'll keep on you know keep on making as long as i mean i don't i don't really know what else to do really but i also think it's it's weird right now you know this is the first week really that i've been out of rehearsal since all this happened because even in between the two mad forest things i remotely shot a music video which was like an interesting experience um so it's um i'm finding that uh like you know my way of processing kind of everything it's it's like it's it's it's a little bit amputated right now because i don't have the output the outlet of like thinking about how to make a piece of work and thereby you know filtering you know emotions and um psychologies and states of the world and structural societies and things like that through through through a lens of making something so um uh yeah it's a very yeah it's an interesting experience but i don't um but i'm but i'm like i am you know i am cautiously optimistic i'm cautiously optimistic that there's a lot of um energy right now that um i you know i keep on telling myself that i don't have the information to know that the future is going to be worse than the past and that what was the past is that that was a different world that's that's done with um uh so and without the knowledge to know that the future is going to be worse than that i should you know i should just remain as rigorously present as possible and um and and try to figure out where my energy can be best directed to serve the you know the greater good um yeah that doesn't answer what it's like to break into the I do hear you um you said this play you had the intuition it would be the right play for the time we are in why do you make theater what what what motivates you in this hard life again i mean i don't why what's your idea about theater in general what is your why do you do it um i do i don't you know i mean i do it because it's it's real it is like weirdly all i've done you know i grew i mean i when i even when i was a kid you know i grew up in different places all over the country and um and i would kind of like i would always like organize my friends around some um group imaginary imaginary reality or whatever and and you know tell stories and start scripting things i mean i started doing theater in schools where there wasn't actually theater you know i'd you know i take a history project and say let me write a script about you know uh the the creation of the atomic bomb even though i didn't know but i just like i don't know for whatever reason it felt it just seems it seems natural to me um and um uh so but i will say that i do i have always whenever i'm working on a piece and from you know from before high school to through high school to you know to anything that i make it is it is always interesting to me or necessary for me to to to approach it from a humanist perspective i guess is is maybe the best way to articulate it and um which is you know how how are we telling stories of people that bring people closer together because they're able to uh because they're experiencing people in a way that maybe they haven't before or or given the space to um feel uncomfortable around people in a way that they haven't before um so i mean that's i guess that's why i make work and i do you know and it is the case that most of the you know i was thinking um during occupy i was making um good person of seshwan and you know and kind of would go down to to occupy and and you know invite you know we we actually did i forgot that we um did we uh actually one of the uh jess uh was the dramaturg on that and i forget that we actually did you know we we invited people from occupy to watch one of our productions of good person of seshwan i mean that i i find that for you know i i can't work on a piece of it doesn't somehow resonate with what i'm like you know seeing going on in the world and again that's a very limited perspective um you know based off of you know my point of view um but but that kind of gives me the energy to make and then and then just aesthetically uh in a larger sense i do the reason that i you know i was a musician before i um before i really started focusing on theater but but and the reason that i really became interested in theater was because i saw even without really knowing what theater was i did see the potential for it being something where you know music visual art performance um history uh examination of social structures all these things could could exist together in a form and that it would also affect that it has the potential of affecting people in a way that bypasses the the brain and so their their whole body becomes a receptor for information and experiences and knowledge in in a way that we don't traditionally um uh appreciate in in in our society so uh so that's why i kind of also over the years have become more interested in in a multimedia approaches because i feel like there's this kind of you know when the whole when the whole person the whole body is immersed in experiences you know it's kind of like it's it's like living in a field of poetry rather than you know reading poetry on a page or something so that's um i think that's why i do theater the form of theater and that's why also i get frustrated when we're kind of told where theater belongs physically and um topic wise and and by whom you know who is allowed to to tell the stories that are presented in theater um and for whom that's the thing that was that's i think really thrilling about potentially the online form and again there's a lot of conversation about who's able to have access to the internet which is also an appalling conversation um but but there is also um you know when we streamed the when we streamed uh the um the event on wednesday at least there were 1600 viewers who watched most of the thing and this these were not people who were like checking and checking out i mean i was watching and they watched at least uh i think at least an hour and 20 an hour and a half of the performance stayed online and they were you know they were watching from you know from bankhawk from uh uh they were watching from from romania like we were getting notes from from romanians um you know they're from gana from germany from you know i mean that to me is is really thrilling and that's where the the real potential for for who can see the work and then also like i say the the you know the physical structure of of the theatrical machine is decentralized as well um so you can have your collaborators all over the world um so that i think is really uh is really thrilling and has a lot of potential um and i also think that there's a different kind of audience that maybe we can reach out to like people there are people who are used to coming to a theater in new york city and sitting down and having this type of experience but there's also an audience that maybe is more interested in engaging online work in a different type of way you know like people who do want to have a chat in the middle of a performance or um who you know who have a who have online kind of persona or um or communities you know and i think that that's i think that's exciting i don't think that you know i i'm you know i actually spend um a lot of time being being grateful for for for for life in the theater you know i mean i think it's um uh you know regularly i can't i mean i can't believe the people who i get to work with the places where i get to go because i make theater i mean like i've traveled around the world solely because i make theater um i you know i get to work with incredibly compassionate you know generous um collaborative super intelligent uh talented human beings you know i i'm really uh i don't you know it's kind of like i've had conversations with people about you know people who who leave leave new york and i've lived here now um i moved here in october of 2001 so um and um and it's kind of like i i you know you can get more space for for less money but you don't also get to go to you know uh to a gallery show that a friend of yours uh has has made you know um uh i mean the you know knowing knowing artists in all different um media and and experiences is uh it makes me feel like like like a fuller human being and i don't and there are a lot of ways to feel like a full human being and but this is the way that i feel like a full human being for now um i we now already know that it changed your work on the way also you did work with this kind of invention um um what you guys did but um did you change the person that experience of covid of the lockdown even though you worked hard almost every day do you feel something has changed um i you know i i mean practically i guess i've been meditating a lot more i mean i already had a meditation practice but that would be the thing when people say what are you doing right now i'm like well i'm i'm meditating a lot more every morning when you get out oh yeah well that that was the case before this but i what do you do tell us something what do i do with my meditation yeah when in your day how does it work how do you do it my day okay well right now right now weirdly my day has been i've been getting up between five and five thirty every morning um mostly because the birds which is really incredible uh and uh and i sit for you know 20 minutes and then i have the whole like you know stretching thing that i have to do is i have you know arthritis and whatever i have to do a whole like stretching thing um and then i uh i do a um i i make a list of people who i'm going to check in with during the day like you know just to see how they're doing um uh and they like decide over the course of the day one i'll check in with whom and things like that whether it'll be via text or zoom or um or phone call um and you know and then i kind of like get into the news and then i do some reading on um i'm reading a few different uh i mean the you know i will say the the thing with my meditation practice it's changed is i haven't really studied a particular type of practice i've just you know sat and and and breathed and tried to be still uh but now i am doing a little i mean it's still a mess of different um different you know traditions that i'm looking at but um i have been doing this course on the bardo which i find really interesting right now so i've been doing of course it's uh so so um you know contemplating that kind of experience of of change um and and the end of a period and the you know what the beginning of a period can be um and how much control we don't have over all of that um and i've also started this new practice that i've started is a we're studying a dogan which i've never read so i'm i'm excited about um you know looking at that um and then i usually uh and then and then in addition most days a week now i also do a sitting at the end of the day as well and i also have to you know i have to kind of shut things down at the end of the day and do some reading and do some writing at the end of the day to just kind of um shut everything down um yeah and i mean and then i mean the middle of the day is mostly spent you know maybe going outside contemplating going outside um to get some kind of exercise like on my crutches i do crutch abouts um and uh and you know and also i'm doing i'm i'm donating right now to different organizations and causes and things like that where i feel like it's it can be helpful um and uh i'm also asking people to send me work to read and look at because you know i used to i used to go see a lot of work and hear a lot of work and go to museums and galleries and friends openings and things like that so um so i'm asking people like who have plays like some you know friends have been sending me plays that they're working on and um videos that they're making and things like that just so i can you know have a conversation with them and i do have a lot you know yesterday morning i spent all morning talking to people in berlin about maybe like that which is exciting uh and um and i've been talking to other people about you know potential projects and they kind of break down into two categories the other break down into categories where we say they have to happen in real life so therefore we're willing to think of developing this for five years if that's what it will take before we can be together in a real space or it weirdly this material will work better online like there's one project in particular that i think actually could work better online so maybe we'll pursue it in that way um and then uh you know i have there are two like you know smaller i'm doing something with the you know beth Morrison projects is doing a new initiative for an online experience and so i'll be i'm working on that right now and um and i do and i have before all this began i got a residency from um this uh space in red hook uh that andromache chalfant and and sharky are running and you know and that has changed what that residency can look like and i think i hope that i'll still be able to have a residency as a generative artist and the piece that i want to make is like um it's an um uh it's an installation uh it's an installation uh like kind of sculptural space sound space that also is a is a vr opera layered on top of it um so there'd be a narrative um vr space that is in a headset and i you know it could be experienced by a single person so maybe that's something that we that is uh isolation or uh social distancing compliant so i'm you know hoping that i'll be able to work on that in in august maybe um but you know but it is very i think it's uh you know whatever you think is going to happen in the beginning of the day doesn't end up happening 12 hours later so i'm kind of uh just being open to whatever whatever might happen um and then try and then try to be really vigilant about you know um again about you know my friends and my um you know people who i really care about checking in with them um and uh and and also trying to figure out how to make sure that that you know come november we're you know we're voting somehow voting and we are working listen um ashley this is uh incredible thank you for sharing and we got an insight of your racing mind that you had to slow down for us a little bit but really thank you for for sharing you know it's a great what you found when you didn't stop what you were doing and try to find a new form and you did and i think it opens up in a way in your world as you also say globally uh theater without there's theater without audience there's theater without uh scenery there's theater without um um scripts whatever now we have a theater without a room um who would have said that the definition by peter brook always where two people meet in a room and one person watches or even nobody watches and we have theater and we don't have that room anymore something has changed software is coming in the digital it used to be the light became digital the great work of robert wilson which he anticipated already was an analog but the digital soundscapes that came up the digital film work and now we have the digital software helping us with cues stage managers running a stage without a stage and uh perhaps even busier than before productions happened with 20 30 people then no one is in the same room these are incredible times and um and we are part of it and you really are shaping this other again congratulation any foundation is looking gives them money to this group of people to finish the software so they can license it out for a little money to all companies so you have something out of it and really support this and also you know any time happy to host to host a hull round session with the team and about how to use that software that's thinkable um just um let us know um did carol churchill see it she did yeah she did and um she was really kind and she um she said it reminded her of she said it brought her right back to being there and to and the other person who's I mean she yeah she you know she was really uh she she said it brought her right back to being there and um and the time when they made it and um and she felt she said it felt very romanian which I took as a compliment um and the other person was uh Anthony McDonald who was the original designer on that production I just worked with him at the armory and so I've been in correspondence with him quite a bit actually and I also sent it to him and he uh he he also watched it and had a very similar response so um I feel really um yeah like I say I mean I'm kind of I I'm on a daily basis I'm pretty blown away by how by the people that I get to uh that I've had the fortune of being able to speak with including you Frank oh well thank you very much it's significant as the other but listen congratulations you should be so proud of what you did it's a model to look at and um what you found what you created your life you're dedicating to the work of art and theater and to help us all to come to terms with what does it mean to zoom what could it be are there possibilities is that you know to see that there are possibilities we haven't thought about and really and stunning it comes out of a tiny little group at that big Broadway commercial complex we should have an interest how this should go with five six seven billion uh of uh a money made in a year and they hadn't come up with something like this so it's incredible and we will see where it goes from and and yeah on the next week again we will focus on what is happening here in New York of course Ashley's experience of COVID of the lockdown is a peculiar one connected to her as an artist and their time everybody experiences it differently but we will of course focus next week on what is happening and we have Ngozi Anyanbu with us also and again James Strags, Tamila Woodard, Nitro Smith, can make it a hope he will come another week Woody King who for 50 years ran a theater uh a black theater company whatever let's see what's happening Jonathan McRory from the National Black Theater and the great philosopher Jean-Luc Nancy who will hopefully tell us a little bit about art and why do we need it my is it significant I hope you will join us and thanks to Hal-Round for hosting us Travis and Thea and Vijay, my Seagull team Andy and and San-Young and to all of you of listeners really thank you for listening also for such a long time you know I don't know moving into a little bit of a longer format but also today I think it was a very important and interesting update very different from all the talks we had now this was about working, about finding ways, wakes that were found new new ways we we perhaps can move forward even if everybody is back in the theaters um and that something is changing and has already changed and um but you're right the election something has to be done I think it was Antonia Kramchi the great philosopher who said when the old days haven't gone yet and the new times hasn't arrived in this chiaro skewer and this hell hellish darkness where it's not clear what it was that's when monsters do come out and I think we all have to fight that and be together and I think that as you found in this extreme situation you were under to stop it or not I think there's also something for this country to find something a solution that will make it at least a great option also made better ways and better forms and better structure so thank you for listening also you listeners again and for taking your time I know how much is on your every day and how much digital content is out but it is important that we listen to them and I hope it's also something meaningful inside for you so with you all I hope and next week stay safe and stay tuned in and Ashley thank you again thanks very much Frank


It's frustrating isn't it? When your photography seems to lack any sort of creativity and it just is dull and it's lifeless and feels uninspired and you don't know how to fix it. Once upon a time I let the technical aspects of my own photography consume me to the point where I was hamstrung and could not connect with my creativity.  How's it? How's it? Today the modern photographer has at their disposal a plethora of tools and these are great but they can overwhelm us and they can create confusion when it comes to the picture making process. Now it's well known that here on this channel I'm not a big fan of gear reviews and if you have a complete version to seeing any cameras on your screen then I would suggest you you look away now because I'm going to show you the camera that I first started with. This is this is a Spider-Man camera it's zero megapixels it takes I think it takes 126 film someone like that. It's a fixed focus lens it has a wind on and a shutter and that's that's kind of it. That's the camera that I was introduced to the joy of making pictures with now obviously as I got slightly older I became more interested in my dad's camera with little Canon a1 and and the idea of you know exposures and f-stops and all these sort of things were intriguing to me and it got to the point where all that joy that creativity of just taking photographs had been pushed to one side and I became obsessed with getting things right with getting the exposure right with getting the right lens choice and all those sort of things that I'm sure we are familiar with that hamper us and hold us back by not worrying about the lens choices of the exposures you can allow yourself to be curious about the world around you and reminded there's an old quote that I'm sure I'm going to miss quote but it says something about like you want to see the world through the eyes of a child you want to react to it like a childhood I can't remember the photographer's name and I have tried to look it up and the sketch so if you do know please let me know in the comments photography like any other art form has multi-disciplines within it you know there's a technique side of things there's the aesthetic the creative side of things there's the the post-processing side of things all of these things are important and please don't make them don't get me wrong I'm not saying that technical aspects are important you should focus on them but it's very difficult especially as a beginner to focus on all of these aspects at the same time and this today is about focusing on the creativity side of things so we're going to push the technical to one side and we can do this even if you have digital camera by setting your camera on p we're going to let the camera do the heavy lifting today just set it on p put on a prime lens if you don't have a prime lens set your zoom whatever to one focal length only right and then that little annoying screen at the back little chimpy one that we keep looking at and checking if things are right you're going to tape that up it's scary I know especially if you've never photographed without seeing the results instantly tape it up don't worry we're not worried about what we see straight away in fixing it we're just wanting to learn how to use our eyes the best tool that we have back in the early 2000s I was talking to a photographer in America she was showing me some photographs that just excited me they were wobbly and they had light leaks all over them and sort of scratches and the focus was all over the place and the exposures were kind of just well they were just average and but I was in I was transfixed with them I loved them I love the vibe about them there's Victorian sort of feel and she told me that they were made using a Holger and at the time I hadn't heard of Holger and the toy camera movement was a little way off still but I went oh you know I'll get one of these she said it doesn't have any focus exposures or anything like that to really speak of it just puts a film in and each one slightly different so I went off and I got myself Holger and I walked the streets of Edinburgh and I was it was like a weight was lifted from my shoulder I was no longer worried about whether my exposures were correct or if my focus was was right because it was it was a zonal focusing sort of thing I was simply in the process of taking photographs and of course because it was on film I didn't know the results until I went had the film process and I got them back and I was like wow these these are amazing this is what I want you to find out today to reconnect with this this joyousness of taking photographs and to developing your creativity again if you need to get in closer then walk if you need to get further back then walk the best zoom you have are your feet use them you're going to find that taking all that stuff out of your your your bag a makes your bag a lot lighter but it is going to liberate I know I keep saying the word liberate but it's going to liberate it's going to make you feel more creative because you're forced to rely on yourself not some magic piece of kit that's in your bag that somehow is going to fix the moment using that one lens is also going to teach you to see the world in a way that these lenses see it so if you use a 50mm constant that you're going to start seeing the world as a 50mm if you use a 35mm the same again it's so liberating when you can start seeing the world through lens frames and and and it's all of a sudden it just pops into your head one day and but it only comes if you work at it if you nurture and develop this skill and these what these are what these techniques are about is about opening up this creativity throughout all of these exercises you're going to feel like you should be paying more attention to your exposures to the technical side of things and and I want you to fight that that urge this this exercise is not about improving your technical aspects that will come and there are many exercises you can do to improve your technical ability so it becomes second nature and allows you to focus more on the creativity thing so they do go hand in hand but today it's about that very delicate thing creativity and that's what you're going to be able to tease out of of the scenes around you is this this creativity it is inside you but it's a lot more delicate than a technical aspect it's a lot more unique it's a lot more personal it's a lot more about you and your own vision you can do this I know you can you're going to be fantastic the more that you work on these skills the more that you are going to be able to sense that there's an image hiding in something that you see that's somewhere in that massive light and shadow and shape and form in front of you there's a nugget of inspiration I want you to just sit and let it come to you to reveal itself and in time you're going to learn to be a skilled seeker of these things you're going to find it easier to tease out these little images from the potential that's all around you there are so many examples of photographers who have been forced I'll say use the word forced is a bit strong but they have chosen to restrict themselves to either a single lens or a type of film stock or what have you Anton Combein is a fantastic example back in his early days he only used the fastest film available to him because he had to photograph in a wide range of places you know daylight and and dark clubs or what have you so he needed the fastest film because he could only afford one film stock so it forced him to be creative of what he did and it gave his images a look and a feel that has stayed with him to this day if you're interested in learning about Anton Combein and other photographers who you can gain a huge amount from from looking at their work I'll put a playlist of great photographers up on the screen for you at the end of the video and suggest you go and have a look maybe discover some people who you may not have heard of I've talked a couple of times now about this idea of freedom about how when we're not worrying about what the camera is doing or the lens is doing or or any of the other options that are available to us as a photographer that we are are liberated to concentrate on the the image itself a great example of this once was I was doing a wedding for a very dear friend of mine in London at one of these kind of pop-up restaurants so the whole place was blacked out and and lit in the same fashion so everywhere throughout the venue the exposure was the same so I could just take one base exposure and it was going to be the same for the entire night also because it was dark I needed to have the fastest lens available to me which at the time was a 1.8 50mm so I put that on and that was what I worked with the whole night I had a 50mm I had the same exposure and I believe that some of those wedding photographs from that day are the most vibrant and and emotional that I took because I wasn't worried about doing gymnastics with my exposures using different focal lengths to to create mood and vibe and what have you it was simply about being in the moment and using my ears using my eyes to react to creating photographs using this rather than the camera obviously I was using the camera but you know what I mean it is not having to worry about changing lenses doing all that sort of stuff it's about being in the moment that seeing what's in front of you and teasing out the opportunities that are abundant in the things that we see if we give them time to come up and we can do that when we're not spending time fussing about lenses you can feel free to sit and just let a moment emerge Henry Cartier-Bresson talked about the decisive moment just seeing a scene and waiting for that little element to occur that element that would elevate the picture if you're constantly thinking about exposures and about lenses you might miss that moment I want you to be comfortable with the idea of limiting yourself to a single focal length of limiting yourself to exposures that aren't necessarily right and about being in that moment with the photograph take the leap to going into the unknown and seeing what comes out the other side don't be disheartened by the results use them and say wow this is this is exciting learn to learn to throw off those shackles and just embrace chaos embrace the chaos and let it maybe like Bob Ross once said you know show you happy little accidents you never know until you try as I mentioned earlier here's that playlist of great photographers go on there have a little look see there's some fantastic people on there who may also inspire you and and give you ideas about your own creativity thanks again for watching and I'll see you again soon