If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, this one, for the first 20 minutes, we do our typical intro, fun conversation. We talk about laser discs. Who remembers that? Yeah, exactly.  And we talk about my amazing find in the laser disc box. I give it away to them. His mind is all about laser discs. I already gave it away right there. Give it away, bro. In the box that my parents had. Stay tuned. All those robots with them laser discs. We also. Stay tuned for the box of discs. We also talk about how we interview people that we may not fully align with in terms of the messages or information. But because of that. Yeah, dude, how are we going to change this industry? How are we going to change this industry if you don't let us talk to everybody? We talk in this echo chamber if everybody agrees. I agree. I agree. I agree. You too. You agree? I agree. I agree with you. I agree. You can learn from almost anybody with different things. And we like to bring people on the show who can teach us things or teach our audience things. Even if it's only a few things. That might not have to do anything with fitness or it might have to do with motivation or science or social media or whatever. So we talk about that in this episode. Also, we mentioned one of our favorite sponsors of all time, Thrive Market. Now Thrive Market, they have all non-GMO and organic products.  They'll mail it to you, but here's the deal. It's cheaper than you'll find anywhere else. In fact, typically the price is the same or even lower than the conventional counterparts. That's right. Take the Pepsi challenge. In other words, you can buy organic cereal for the price that you would find regular cereal for on Thrive Market. But we also have a massive hookup for our audience. If you go to ThriveMarket.com forward slash mine pump, here's what you're going to get. Free shipping on $49 or more. You're also going to get $20 off your first three orders of $49 or more.  And there's more. You'll get one month free membership. So basically, that's what I'm talking about. They're losing money on you. So get on there. Go crazy. Plus, every time someone gets a membership, that somebody in need gets one for free. That's right. They'll donate to a low-income family. Which that in itself is worth it. Pretty cool. Time to give right now this year. They're good people. Then we get into the questions. The first question was, how do we change our clients from being motivated by external factors to being motivated by internal factors? Notice how I avoided using the word extrinsically. Extrinsically motivated. Tongue twisters. Extrinsically. The next question was, there's a lot of myths around bread. Why is it demonized? Is there justification behind it? Is there a place for bread in a healthy diet? Well, there's some healthy bread on Thrive Market. There you go. Another plug there. Nice add-on. That was smooth. Loaf. Then somebody asks us if there's any strategies to help combat sad. Sad is the acronym of seasonal effective disorder. Whoever invented that acronym was a brilliant. I had this. I didn't even know it. Angry dicks. Brilliant, exactly. The final question, is there anything that this person can do to prevent their metabolism from slowing down when they're training for their 25K race?  What does that even mean? Or do they need to lift heavy? Find out in this episode.  Usually, yes. Also, we're coming up on the holiday season. We got turkey day coming up. We got Christmas coming up. We got New Year's coming up. Great times for connecting to family, great times for enjoying yourself. Really bad for your belly. Not good at all. A lot of us get fat. Unless you're jolly. Unless you're Santa Claus in which if you lost weight, that would be bad. But nonetheless. Rosie cheeks and fat. This is a great time of year to get started on your New Year's resolution early. So here's what we got for you. We have something called the Maps Super Bundle. So for those of you who've been listening to our show for a long time, you know we have individual Maps programs, and they're all designed for specific goals and adaptations. Well, what the Super Bundle does, it takes them all, puts them together and discounts them, something like 25% or 30% off. But it also puts them in order so that you can go from one to the other to the other. It takes you through an entire year of exercise programming. Your whole year will be planned out for you. All your workouts, your exercises, how to do them, demos, there's video demos on there, us explaining how to do them with all the intricacies and details.  We're driving. That only personal trainers like us can deliver. It's extremely valuable. It's much less than you would get anywhere else for something of this type of value. You can find the Maps Super Bundle only one place. There's only one place to get it. Minepumpmedia.com. What is it? That's Eddie Murphy, right? Eddie Murphy does a little skit on it, doesn't he? That's on Raw? Yes. God, one of the best ever, man. Eddie Murphy was great. Different times. Eddie Murphy. Many had kids and got weak. Eddie Murphy Delirious and Eddie Murphy Raw was some of the best. Richard Pryor was better. Let's get back to the leather outfits. I still disagree. I think Richard- You like Murphy better than Pryor? Eddie Murphy. Pryor was a god. He learned from Richard Pryor. So he learned. So this is kind of like Michael Jordan or LeBron James. Michael Jordan is the one who changed the game. Richard Pryor changed the game. But I think that LeBron James, I think that Eddie Murphy perfected the game. I think that in their prime, Eddie Murphy, if they were heads up same day going out on comedy tour, Eddie Murphy's going to win, man.  Oh, he was a character. He was good, dude. It was good. He was great. I watched early 20s, dude. So I watched Raw on a laser disc. Do you guys remember a laser disc? I do. That's not DVD. No, no, no, it's the big. Yeah, so. It was one of those things. My girlfriend in high school, her dad, had it. I forget what it was. What was the deal with laser disc? Why did it even exist? So it was this was before CDs. After VHS. It was what? It was before CDs. It was like the most advanced technology. Yeah, but that was the direction that they were going. It was just too massive and it didn't take off. No, I.  So when we, when I was a kid, I was nine. We moved into the house that my parents are in now. And for whatever reason, they left their laser disc laser disc player and boxes of movies. And it was in the closet. And I'd pull these things out and I'd put them in and I'd watch them and it was pretty cool. There's a lot of cool movies on there. And then I found a Playboy laser disc. What? Really? I did. No. Yes, I did. Amazing. And my parents didn't know it was there because they had not gone through all the movies and all of you right now. By this time, I'm probably just connected to a projector. I'm probably like a great or just connected to the TV.  I guess I'm like 12 at this point. And it was seventh, eighth. It was life-changing. I bet. It was a life-changing experience on laser disc. I'll never forget laser disc. Give me the laser. Laser. Sponer. But it was a life-changing experience.  Wow. Did you watch Cell? I did. I was with, remember, we went down to J. OK, that's right. That was the best UFC card. Dude. Hands down that I've seen in years, arguably, one of the best after that. People getting dethroned left and right. Three. Yeah. Three title exchanges on the same card. I don't know if that's ever happened. That might have been the first time. I don't, I have to. Three. We might have to Google that. That was the first time I'd ever seen. That's why MMA is one of those sports that I feel like you should always, if you're going to bet money, bet on the underdog. I did not. It's like that happened so much. Yeah, but sometimes the underdog's not like, for example, you want to meet a place of bet against St. Pierre, which I'm sure you're glad I didn't do that. But it wasn't really a good bet. It was almost even. So it was 115 to 1. So those odds are like whatever. Didn't you put money on Rose? I did. It was five to one. To me, so I called the two, those two. I did think that Cody was going to win. Now, I think Cody is a better fighter, nine times at 10. But TJ, he was kind of winning. Well, yeah. Yeah, those first couple, the first like, was it the first two rounds or the first round specifically where he knocked them down in the first round? Yeah, Cody. Oh, I thought it was lights out. And then all of a sudden, he came back, man. Those two, both GSP and then the TJ fight was such a testament that it's crazy to have on the same card of the will to win. Like GSP was gassed. That goes five rounds. He's losing that. Cody, nine times at a 10 beats TJ. But the will to win right there. That's going to be a rematch. He was getting all cocky and everything. I was like, uh-oh. I always get nervous when guys start getting all flamboyant like that and you like them.   When TJ peeled off his shirt, that was the best conditioning I'd ever seen him in at any fight. And I watched some hatred in his soul. I watched the Ultimate Fighter series when they both were coaches.  And so much of how real that is. A lot of it's not. A lot of it's stage. But then there are, and I remember, I can't remember if it was something I read or when I watched this somewhere and Dana talks about this. Sometimes the guys, they encourage them to have this beef. And then sometimes guys really don't like each other. And that was like an example of two guys that really don't like each other. Don't like each other. Yeah, there's a lot of beef because the whole camp thing, right? Because TJ was part of the same camp that Cody came from, which is the, what can I think of his name right now? Sacramento area guys. Oh, Faber. Yeah, you're right. Right. That was what that was all about was there was real beef between alpha male. Yes. And man, they, you could just see the emotion in him after he won. I wonder where that term came from, from beef. Beef. Yeah, like you got beef. We got beef. What? I don't get it. If you and I had beef, I feel like we'd be friends. We'd be satisfied. Yeah, we wouldn't be mad at each other. If you came to me and you're like, Sal, oh sweet, beef. I think we got beef, bro. And I'd be like, well, thanks. I got charcoal. I like beef a lot. You know, it makes me a little upset still. I hate to admit, as long as we've been doing this and all the, you know, the amount of people we've reached now and whatever, and I need to work on this because it's only going to get worse.  You know what I mean? Drops. Yeah, it's because it splashes a little bit further than, you know, the positive ones. It just makes me, it still gets a little upset. And part of the reason why I get upset, I think is because I feel like we're always trying to deliver better, you know what I mean?   You made it with love and it took you like forever to make it all day from scratch. And then somebody comes in, I don't like the flavor. It's so dumb. You know what it is, it's because, so what we're trying to do more recently now, and it's not like, this is not like our goal. This isn't the goal of Mind Pump. It's just part of what we're trying to do is we're trying to help fitness professionals learn how to build their business in the modern world, which involves, whether you like it or not, the digital social media, YouTube, podcast world.  Because here's the deal, I read what you read that I know that spun you the wrong way. And here's how I feel about this bullshit.  And I know the guy was saying that, you know, oh, how could you guys put these people on the show and then not roast them? Well, if we put people on the show that don't align with our values and then we roast them on the show, you don't think that's going to get around to everybody else than nobody else is going to want on the show? A better approach at that would be to invite them on the show, talk about what they are good at, what they are good at, befriend them, get to know them and then influence their audience by helping people the right way. That's just it though, that's just it. Like one thing that I learned a long time ago, this was a very valuable lesson for me. And if you're a growth minded individual, if you want to succeed in business or life or you're in personal areas, one of the things that I learned a long time ago that really benefited me was I can learn from almost anybody. Even people like, this was a problem for me in the past. In the past, if somebody, let's say somebody came to me and they did very, very well with, I don't know, with marketing, let's say they were marketing genius, but they had a messed up family life, they were super out of shape and whatever. I wouldn't take their advice because I didn't like the whole.  And what would happen is, I wouldn't gain the knowledge from them in something that they are good at. Cause most people are not good at everything. Most people, if they are good at something, it's one or two things and that's it. So if what we're doing- It's a blind spot these people have. That's it, like here's the deal, like I'm pretty good at information. I'm not very good at social media. So if someone has me on their show and they wanna talk to me about stuff, they're probably gonna ask me the questions about the things I'm good at. And so if we bring social media celebrities, YouTube celebrities, whatever, on the show, we're probably not gonna talk fitness about them cause we're pretty good with fitness. We're gonna talk fitness with the scientists and the- Yeah, the trainers- The Chris Kressers, the Rob Wolves, the Paul Checks, we're gonna dive into science and programming and fitness and nutrition. If we have some 20 year old on here that's a celebrity on YouTube, we're not gonna sit there and roast them about all the things that they don't know yet. No, we wanna know like, they obviously did something right with a digital media platform. Yeah, there's something to learn there. That's it. And I think that, yeah, we have been on this kick of like trying to educate, educate, educate our audience, but even just our own humbleness of realizing that we only have so far, our reach only goes so far. How can we get more embedded into a larger scale? And to do that, you're gonna run into characters all over the board, YouTube, podcasting, whatever the media source is, they've obviously done something super successful that we need to learn. There's things that we learn- We are not gonna win this war by blindly running into people and just stabbing people with knives and spears.  No, we have to trojan horse the motherfuckers, dude. That's what's gonna have to happen.  And they're gonna ignore all the information we're valuable for initially until later on. What we're hoping is that they go through our stuff and like, see, oh, look at the value that they have that they're bringing in, but initially it's gonna be pretty surface. Well, look, besides all that, years ago, if you've been listening to our show for a long time, you know that Shredds was a company that we really didn't like, they really represented what we didn't like.  Yes, sure. I would have Joey Swowe on here if you'd come on here. We've already asked him. We've talked about this before. What did they do very well? They were able to get whatever their message was out very effectively and they didn't do it on accident. They were actually quite strategic and intelligent by the way they did it through Instagram.  Cause again, we have a lot of trainers and gym owners that listen to our show. You can learn something from that. You can learn from what they did that helped them spread their, whatever their message was, take that, learn from it and then spread the right message. And so our goal is to get our people, you, the listener, the tools necessary to spread the right information in fitness and through that, we will be able to move this massive ship we call the fitness industry to move in the right direction. We have to be mainstream. That's it. And to get to mainstream, you gotta talk to people that are mainstream and they're not always the brightest bulbs.   Like to put your two cents in on some bullshit like that, not knowing what's going on behind the scenes. Like it's such small minded thinking. If we were to sit on this podcast and only interview the Chris Kressers, the Rob Wolfs, then simply only the people like yourselves that are searching for good information that find mind pump and then hear it are going to hear it. If we're gonna break through to the kids that are between 20 and 25 years old, we've gotta find the people that these people are listening to. They're looking up to other people. And because they come on our show, and I'll tell you right now, this is not the first of many people that will come on this show that we do not see eye to eye with. And you should have known that from back when when we had Lane Norton back on the show, there's lots of things that we don't agree with with Lane. And yet we still respect him as a person, respect him as a man, as a friend. And that's a good point. Like if we don't respect a person, then we probably won't bring him on. If there's something that they do that we think that there's something interesting there that we can learn from or audience can learn from, even if we disagree on the other things, then we'll probably have them on the show. And that's just the bottom line. And yes, will we call people out live on the show? I'll tell you something right now.  I can't keep my mouth shut. That's just my personality anyway. It'd be impossible for me to do so. So just a little shout out to people who are, you know. Yeah, but there's even with that, there are certain things that, like so I think there was, I know we put Amanda Bucci's video on the YouTube.   And she uses it to help her stabilize. I don't even remember what she said. But she likes squat shoes. Right, it wasn't like a scientifically accurate to exactly what or how you would use shoes. And I'm not gonna come in and correct her because she says that that way. That's so silly. Well, that's also a very common belief around squat shoes. In fact, I'm gonna call us out on it. When we first discovered squat shoes, we talked about them, not exactly the same way, but in a similar way, we were like, wow, they're great. I could squat lower. But then of course we dive deeper. We met people like Dr. Brink, who educated us on things like ankle mobility and our feet. And now we're against them unless you compete with squat shoes or unless you're just trying to hit a PR. Same thing with weight belts and wrist straps and stuff like that. So it's the whole purest method. I'm not against anything. I think they're all tools and they can all be used in different ways. And I think that I'm over 15 years in this industry and still learning things. So I'm most certainly not gonna punk some 20-year-old young kid that I think is on the right path with a good message that's learning because I know what I was out there saying back when when I didn't- Yes, they are learning. Right. They're learning, dude. Why would we punch them as they're learning? And I'll tell you what, speaking of Amanda Bucci, when you meet her in person, a very charismatic, genuine individual, that's the impression 100% that we got. She's also working with people who are big players like Lewis Howes, that's somebody she's working very closely with and pay attention to how she grows her business. She's a very intelligent individual when it comes to building your business through digital media. So if you're somebody that is trying to grow your business, that's a direction you wanna look and there's something to learn from that, for sure. Bring it. This quiz brought to you by OrganiFi. For those days you fall short on getting your organic veggies or whole food nutrition, OrganiFi fills the gap with laboratory tested certified organic super foods to help give your health and performance the added edge. Try OrganiFi, totally risk free for 60 days by going to OrganiFi.com. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com and use a coupon code MINEPOMP for 20% off at checkout. First up is Grant Killian Five. How do you change clients from being extrinsically motivated to intrinsically motivated with respect to diet and exercise? Oh, that's a good question. So what is the difference between being extrinsically, say that three times fast, motivated versus being intrinsically motivated. Man, this is a hard one, man. If you can do this as a trainer, you've succeeded. This right here, this one thing right here is everything. It's the old parable that teach the man to fish. God, can we be honest though? I mean, hmm. It's difficult. How many people really have this ability, right? Because, okay, let's break it down this one. So it's a long process. Well, first of all, most people fall short of ever even reaching their extrinsically, or say it for me, dude. Extrinsically? Yeah, did you say it right? I think I did. You sounded good. I'm gonna murder it every time I try and say it. Just say extra. In other words, focusing on your outward appearance. Appearance, right? Or just being motivated by outside. Yeah, well, yeah. But that's what you're focusing on because you're motivated by that because of our insecurities. I'm not big enough. I'm too fat. I'm not lean enough. I'm not fast enough. I'm not tall enough. These are all external, right? These are all the things which we have for many years now have been marketing to motivate you to get inside the gym or buy things from us. It's an easy thing to hit. It is. External factors are always. That's what immediately will draw people in. It's also, but it's also not just aesthetics. It could also just be, I need a marathon to be motivated to exercise or I need a wedding. Well, let's say I want to jump higher. I want to be taller. These are all outward things that you are focused on. And where I was going with that is that that is, I would have to say that's 99% of when somebody would walk into a gym and consider hiring me, they all have this. Very few people would walk in and say, Adam, I need you to help me get more connected internally to myself and learn the signs that my body, nobody said that. Learn from my body. Teach me to learn from my body. Right. Nobody says that, right? Everybody has got a goal that is more than likely driven from an insecurity, which this is not me knocking on that. I'm very much so was that person for many, many years. So this is really, really tough. And it makes it more tough when somebody has that as a goal and then they never reach it. I find that it's kind of like the, we talked in an earlier podcast episode where, I remember being a young kid who was driven financially for a really long time. I just wanted to make money. I wanted to be successful. And then I got to a certain point and it kind of reached that and realized, wow, I'm not any more happier than I thought. But it was such an important part of my life to get to that goal to realize that there's more to this, than this outward shit, this money. There's stuff that inside of me, I need to be truly happy and in love with who I am, where I am currently now and the process. That's the same thing with this. You think, and so I personally believe that getting after or reaching those external goals first really helps to then focus on the intrinsic ones because otherwise it's really tough to break through that. A lot of people need to see that for themselves that look at your ribs but you still feel insecure about yourself. Look, you reached your bicep goal but you're still insecure with it. Look, you did what you were trying to accomplish. Yeah, it's reps till you reach your subconscious and the more frequent you can apply these rituals and different ways of training your body to respond. Once it becomes automatic, that's when it's like, oh, okay, honestly, I can see now how this is affecting my body and you can kind of navigate and figure out, like, wow, this is gonna benefit me more intrinsically and that's how, once you get to that intrinsic place, man, everything changes. It's so crazy, like you find out how much better your body does, like in how much more strength you get and once you benefit your body and how you feel and your health and everything benefits from it. Yeah, being motivated from the outside has got a few problems. One of them is what happens when you reach that goal and usually it's not what you think. Like Adam was saying, like, you know, I wanna lose 30 pounds so I can be happy finally and I've seen this many times. I've taken clients this point many, many times. They'll lose the 30 pounds and initially, they are happy. Initially, that's what they want. After a short period of time, they start to get back into their old patterns because it wasn't what they thought it was. People experience this with plastic surgery.  People experience this with winning the lottery. There's some great studies on people who win the lottery where they go in, they win the lottery, they win $10 million. There are happiness spikes for about a year or two and then it goes right back down to where they were before even though they have more money. So it's important to note that it can definitely get you somewhere but it isn't gonna keep you anywhere for the most part. It's a very difficult thing to process for a lot of people. I think what Adam said is very important. It's true, getting there sometimes is better. It's easier to teach. It's easier to teach. But here's really the thing, two things I wanna cover here. First, motivation is overrated. Motivation is a state of mind and a state of being that is temporary. Just like happiness, just like sadness or anger or anything else, you feel very motivated. It isn't hard to do something. It's when that goes away, now what? Like what do I do now that the motivation real change actually happens? Yeah, once you get through that phase of, cause yeah, motivation can only carry you so far. Right, so a couple techniques. One is make your exercise or your nutrition or whatever a part of your personal culture. So what I mean by that is if you, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday you wake up an hour early and go for a walk and do exercises, do it long enough and make yourself do it long enough to where it becomes a part of your culture. This is just what I do. Now for people who think that sounds silly, we do this with a lot of things. I wake up every morning and I have coffee every morning. It's part of my morning culture. Or before I go to bed every night, I like to read an article in this particular magazine or I brush my teeth at the exact same time every single day. It's really no different than any of that stuff. If you use something long enough, it does become a part of your culture. The second thing is for it to become intrinsic for you, it needs to be driven by the purpose and by the process, not by the goal. So in other words, I exercise because I truly value and enjoy that time. It has nothing to do with the goal of getting stronger or burning body fat or changing my body. That's secondary. That's a secondary thing. But exercise for me is something that I enjoy so much in such an important part of my life because I really respect it and I enjoy it so much that I don't miss the workouts. And my goals can change. My goals can change all the time. They can change from wanting to build muscle and strength to wanting to get leaner to alleviating stress. There have been times in my life where it would be impossible for me to progress with my exercise. Very difficult times in my life. Like when I went through my divorce or when my family member got diagnosed with terminal cancer, both those times I was not working out and dieting or eating a particular way to change my body. I was doing it because it made me feel better. It was my time, it was my place of solace. It was my hour of meditation, if you will. Yeah, and I think too, it goes back a lot to when you talk about working towards loving yourself as the motivator, as opposed to like what we talked about in the beginning, like all the insecurities really driving you to work on these things about yourself.  Go ahead.  My whole life, I was taught that money is the root of all evilness. I was taught that love is everything. Money doesn't mean anything. And yet, I was still extremely driven to get it.  But it doesn't matter. Everyone's gonna deaf ear that and continue because inside of them, they truly believe that. So for me, I think part of this process, it's extremely important to actually drive towards this external goal at first. And then as a professional, if I'm doing a good job, I'm, and Sal, Sal gave an analogy one time with his son when he would wrestle in a jiu-jitsu match and win or lose. And the lessons that he would give him afterwards, he wouldn't talk about winning or losing. So it's not about getting the goal or not getting the goal. He would talk about the process and what he learned from that. And that is what you try and do as a coach to somebody who's heading towards these goals. So I think having the external goal is totally okay. But along the process, I'm teaching people, like when they put the work ethic in, what they got from that and how they feel inside and connecting those dots with how they feel and what the work that they're putting in, that starts to help to connect that message to, it's not really about the 20 pounds. You're stringing it all together for them to understand. Along the way. Along the way. Right. And then add the feedback. And then when they get there, then we can discuss all the things that we learned during this process and what was really going on behind the scenes, psychologically, emotionally, internally, that will help them connect that. Right, because a lot of people are disconnected that like that's their mentality towards this workout in particular.  I don't care how many people could tell me that money is not the answer.  And then, now I didn't have a coach to coach me through this process. So it is a little bit different. Now, if you're a trainer and you have a client that's struggling with this, it's okay to lead them towards that goal but coach them along the way because another thing you have to understand that if I come, which most people are gonna come to the gym with these external goals and you tell them like, oh, we shouldn't focus on any external stuff. You're not gonna have any business. Nobody's coming in. Nobody's gonna hire you. No one's gonna hire you. So you gotta kinda give them what they want but then along the way, you're kinda educating them on the real important things. Like, hey, how's your sleep going? You notice your sex drive right now? Look at that. When you actually stream these days in a row of exercise, eating well, turning your electronics off, pay attention to how you're feeling. You know what I'm saying? So you start connecting those dots along the way you're going after this external goal but you're getting them more connected internally while you do it. I find this is a much better way of approaching this than trying to convince somebody. It's good coaching. Yeah, it's just good coaching and reps. And that's what it's gonna take. And lastly, when you're in the state of mind and you're motivated through these external factors and you wanna try and move yourself or you wanna move a client to these intrinsic motivations, have some compassion for yourself. Now, this doesn't mean you feel bad for yourself but what I mean by that is, I think a lot of times we treat exercise and nutrition as either a punishment or a reward. And it's really no different than when you have kids and you use food as a punishment or a reward. And it's creating these bad relationships with both of them, these bad associations with both of them.  I'm gonna exercise a particular way. I'm probably gonna work out harder, more frequently than I need to or that might be too hard. I'm gonna pick exercises and things that are gonna give me more pain because that's what you do when you punish someone is you give them pain.  Have a little bit of compassion with yourself and then take care of yourself. And I mean that in the best sense.   It's also doing them damage and the same thing goes for yourself. So have a little bit of compassion. Think, I need to take care of me. What is taking care of me? And then watch how that directs you and how that turns into that more intrinsic motivation. Hey, you wanna find out what beef came from? What? So beef is the meaning to complain. That's what beef means. It means to complain. It's a coinage of the mid 19th century. This quote comes from an anonymous burglar, a memoir, published in New York in 1865. How weird, right? And it became part of the lexicon beef. You got chicken? So it's for dinner. Next question is from Harriet Edwards 410. Are there a lot of myths about bread? Why is it demonized? Is there a place for bread in a healthy diet? Wow. Yeah, there is a lot of myths, but... You were saying you don't miss it, huh? I don't, man. I tell you what, here's the thing with me. I used to have bread at least two to three times a day. I would have it every morning for breakfast. Toast or what? Well, in the form of toast, bagel, breakfast sandwich, egg waffles, something along those lines, right? So this was a staple. And then at lunch was, I had every day would have quiznos, togos, subway, type of a sandwich. And then dinner, I would have some sort of a bread muffin, whatever, something going on with dinner. So I ate bread religiously for a very, very long time. And I absolutely still this day loved it. But when I started kind of diving into all these things that could potentially be causing my flare-ups, like autoimmune, I have psoriasis, bread was one of the first things that I thought to try and eliminate and to see how I would feel. And the thing- You noticed a difference, huh? Well, a couple of things that I noticed. For some weird reason, the bread always, when I was eating a lot of bread, I had a lot of ups and downs with my energy level. Like I wasn't consistently, didn't feel consistent with my energy. I felt, I felt good afterwards. And then there'd be like, I'd feel lethargic maybe an hour or two after the fact I would have a meal. Like I wanted to get nap, right? After a big sandwich or something. So I noticed that. And then I also noticed too, I was retaining and holding a lot of water. Now, there's a lot of variables that come in there. Because obviously if you're eating bread three times a day, that's a lot of carbohydrates for every three grams carbs you're holding three ounces of water. So obviously somebody, which is also why when we go ketogenic diet, a lot of people lose a ton of weight at first is because not just because it's good to not have that all that shit in there, but it's also because your body's not holding as much water. So that I noticed that my stool, stomach, things like that. I eliminated it maybe for like a week or two. It was like a challenge. And then I never missed it. And then I just use alternatives. Like I love like the cauliflower pizza bread. Like that makes me feel like I'm getting that type of a texture. And I use a cauliflower, we use like a mash. And I use a lot of different things that replace it. And it doesn't bother me. Now that being said, occasionally, I'll allow bread in there. And I find that in moderation, I don't seem to have those issues.  It's interesting. I mean, I'm not a huge bread person either. But I have like in the past eaten a ton of bread. And that was something that was always like in the diet, especially for lunch, having sandwiches, stuff like that. But I don't really do that anymore. I do, however, have sourdough bread every now and then. And that like for me, it's nothing that really affects me too much as far as like my gut is concerned. You know why? It's probiotic, isn't it? Well, no, sourdough naturally is very low in gluten because of the way it's made.  It has to be the real sourdough. Doesn't Thrive Market have this? Don't they have? Do they have the sourdough? If they do, I'm ordering it. So I go gluten-free typically. I'll talk about that in just a second. But I go gluten-free the... Do they carry it? I don't even know if they carry it. I thought they do. So they have this Pamela's gluten-free bread mix. Have you guys ever seen Pamela's? I like whole foods. It's a pretty common, and I like it. You can make really good bread with it at home, homemade bread, and it's totally gluten-free. I'm gonna look up the ingredients right now. Yeah, I see it's like sour gum, tapioca flour, sweet rice flour, brown rice flour, inulin, white rice flour, millet, honey, molasses, rice bran. So it's pretty good stuff. I'll take that and I'll make homemade bread for myself that sometimes I'll toast and I'll use it. I'll put butter on it like it's like a conduit for butter. Is it hard to make? I mean, do you need like a bread maker to do it or is it just like throw it in the oven? Nope, not hard at all. Oh, really? You can make it in the oven. And it's got a good price too. It's a 19 ounce bag is 425, I believe, which is like... Oh, Doug just pulled it. It's cheap. Oh, there it is. Yeah, 425. What's the chibi gluten-free original cheese bread mix? There's a lot of cheese bread? You know what's cool about this? That reminds me of a... Man, you remember Red Lobster? Cheese bread. You remember Red Lobster, the little cheese... Do they still do those there? I don't know. I never ate a Red Lobster. Did I ever tell you guys that? I'm a sizzler. In junior college, when we were all broke kids, we used to go and, okay, so I know somebody on the forum will say something about this when they hear it.  And so there was four of us buddies that were all broke going to college.  And then the other three...  We'd eat the bread. We'd eat the bread. Game assistant.  We did that, this place called Mama Mia's. They had like, oh, the best bread. And you dipped it in this like kind of cream cheese, like mixed sauce thing. Oh my God, it was so good. Terrible. So here's the thing with bread and wheat in particular and flour, made from wheat. A few different things. First, wheat, it looks almost nothing like the ancient wheat that we used in ground with stone to make bread way back in the day. Wheat now looks very, very different. We've bred it, no depend intended, to be much thicker, much more durable, to have much more energy, more calories, AKA more calories per stock or whatever you wanna call them. They look very different. In fact, if you go online and look up, what ancient wheat versus modern wheat, you can see that they look very different. So there's that, number one. I've heard, so do you know much about like heirloom pasta and like... No. Okay, so what I heard this, I don't know if it was on Joe Rogan's show or not, but they were talking about like, you know how they have heirloom tomatoes and like the difference being in Italy, like I remember you talking about when going over there, you didn't have as much of an impact in eating certain kinds of pastas or breads. And so the way that they grow it, I guess it's not, it doesn't have the density of gluten that it does out here. Well, you're right. So American wheat is much higher in gluten than the wheat that they'll use in many European countries because more gluten means that it's stronger, you can make soft bread with it, which Americans love, that really soft bread, whereas in Europe they tend to have the harder stuff. So the wheat here has got as much higher in gluten. So a lot of people will notice that here they'll be intolerant to bread and pasta. Then they'll go to Italy, this is like half of my family, they'll go to Italy and be like, I can have the bread and the pasta here. Here's the thing with it. It's definitely been over the years changed. So it looks very different, it's much higher in gluten than it used to. It's also many times in American markets sprayed heavily with herbicides. Now I know what you're thinking, why are they spraying wheat with an herbicide if it kills the wheat? Well, they use it as a desiccant to make it dry and be ready faster. And because glyphosates, like Roundup, are perfectly legal to spray on food, they can do this like crazy. So you're also getting, typically, unless you're having organic wheat, a nice dose of glyphosates. Now glyphosates themselves cause some serious problems. Glyphosates have a very bad interaction with your gut microbiome. They do damage the junctions that connect your gut cells so they can cause gut cell permeability or gut permeability, so they lead to leaky gut. And gluten itself is just one of those things that the immune system will recognize faster as a foreign invader. So if you have any gut inflammation, which is most of you listening, and you eat a lot of something like we do with gluten cause it's in everything, bread and wheat and flowers and almost every processed product that is out there, you have an inflamed gut, you're exposing yourself to gluten which your body is likely to recognize as a foreign invader. Now it's leaking through your gut in areas where it's not supposed to because of the inflammation. You're recognizing this as a foreign invader to develop antibodies to it and now you get an autoimmune reaction to gluten where you notice I used to eat bread and have no problem.  By the way, Adam is a very common issue that people will get with gluten sensitivities from leaky gut, super, super common. So if you find that you get acne or a little psoriasis or rashes and stuff like that, it could be from gluten. So one of the things when I said that right away, I'll know in about two or three days, my psoriasis is the first thing to show me. Like right now, my diet's been pretty dialed in right now and my skin is the best it's ever been. And I know that if I would have like a pizza, a burger day and then like another day of like sandwich or like that by day three, like all instant. And it starts me, I'll itch and I won't even itch right now when my skin is good, I have no irritation, I don't even itch. And the other day I noticed it, I really started to put this together by that because it takes a couple of days of it to build up. And then for the psoriasis to really get bad, I don't notice it for like a week later. But what I now have been, I've now connected like, okay, if I have a big Togo sandwich and a pizza and maybe something else in a day, by this already by date, the next day, I'm itchy. I'm not, my skin's not showing the flare up really bad. I'm not, my psoriasis doesn't look awful. But all of a sudden I find myself picking at myself, itching. And then by day two and three, now I start to see it start to flare up. There are other things in wheat that have inflammatory effects in a lot of people. There's wheat germ, a gluten in, there's amylase trypsin inhibitors. All of these can contribute to gut problems. Also gluten, your microbiome isn't so fond of it. So it's not necessarily beneficial for your gut microbiome. So when you add all these things up, and you're eating wheat or you're eating bread or eating pasta in the presence of some gut inflammation, now you have a problem. And this is why when I coach people, first off, most people I'll have, I'll notice some symptoms of gut inflammation. So most people I tell them to remove bread and then we'll slowly reintroduce it to see if there's a problem. And I tell you what, nine out of 10 times, literally, there's that one person that doesn't have a problem. But 90% will do better off without bread. Even if I replace the calories, even if the macros are the same, everything else is the same, that tends to be an issue. So gluten-free, and issues with gluten is not a, it's not a fad, it's huge in the market for a reason. As our gut health gets worse, and as our microbiomes become less and less diverse, you're gonna see more problems, especially as we continue to spray, like glyphosates on everything. So here's my advice, if you are eating bread, go with organic, that'll reduce the amount of glyphosate exposure, and go with sprouted wheat. Sprouted wheat is easier to digest on the body. Ezekiel bread, it uses lots of sprouted grains. People tend to digest that a little bit better. For everybody else, I'd say, I'd say avoid it. You know what? Not if you toast it. We talked, I think, a little bit about this the other day, you know, what it tends to be, like this may not even be an issue for you. Like everybody is so unique and different. In my experience and the people that I continue to help with this, it almost always is something that you've abused for a long time. Like I was- So everything contains like flour, gluten in it. If it's processed, it has it in it, usually. Right, so if you're somebody who is eating a lot of those foods, and you have been for years, it could be something that, and so, and of course a majority people are, and we're autoimmune is on the rise. So this is where the demonization of it comes from, right, because it's exploding. A lot of people are connecting that. That doesn't mean that nobody can ever have bread anymore. It just means this is something that you may want to look into if you have any sort of gut issues, skin issues. And I mean, honestly- And gluten free doesn't mean healthy, by the way. Right, right. And even if you don't have those issues, to be aware of that.  Because I used to eat ice cream every night because I could, because it didn't make me fat because I burned so many calories so I could get away with it. But I wish I would have had the sense to know that I could be setting myself up for gut issues in the future because I was abusing it that much because I was eating it that frequently. So if you're eating bread really frequently, even if you don't have issues now and maybe you're young, look out because after doing that- That's a good point. That's why rotating your food. It's one of the reasons why I'm rotating. There's a lot of reasons. But that's one of the reasons why rotating your food is so important because if you do have any amount of gut inflammation, any amount of hyperpermeability of your gut or leaky gut syndrome, then if you're eating anything, a lot of, you're increasing the risk that you'll develop a immune bodies to it and you can cause yourself a problem. This can happen with anybody. I've had people with food intolerances to like spinach. So it can happen with almost any food. Next question is from Jake J.Y. Strategies to combat seasonal effective disorder.  Sad. You guys never heard of seasonal effective disorder? So this is a real issue. And this is when- It's gloomy. So during the winter months in particular, as it gets darker- Like you get more depressed. Yeah. And it's- This is common in like in Alaska and- Well, very much more common. But it's actually, it actually can happen anywhere even in sunny areas where- It can't, but it's really common. Like most common in those areas, right? Yeah.  Okay, okay, okay. I didn't know that it was called something. Yes, it's called sad. It's literally the acronym is sad, seasonal effective disorder.  So scientists aren't quite sure- Learn something new every day. What causes this in people, but there's a lot of interesting speculation. One of which is you're just exposed to less sunlight. In sunlight, your circadian rhythm runs off of it. And vitamin D production. You know, it's funny. There's been some interesting studies now trying to figure out why certain viruses tend to emerge in the winter seasons. Like why does flu season even exist? Like why is there a season? Like I told you- Why do we never get the flu in summer? Or rarely ever, right? And part of the reason and one of the more, one of the prevailing theories is that because we're getting less sun exposure, our vitamin D levels decline. And vitamin D, if you're in a deficiency or if you're slightly low in it, it will cause depressions in your immune system. Your immune system will not function the way it should. You'll have an increased risk of autoimmune issues and an increased risk of infection. The endocrine system would have something to do with that also with you not being able to control the hot cold from the difference between that too. That has to have something to do with that. They think it has to do with the sunlight, sunlight and vitamin D. So some of the things you can do to combat this include exercise, movement, which always makes you feel better, but also include getting more sunlight. And if you can't get a lot of sunlight, if you're in one of those areas, then take vitamin D. Vitamin D for people with seasonal effective disorder, vitamin D is a pretty effective strategy for some people. The other thing that you can do is light therapy. I was just gonna ask you, this is something where you would use the Jove, right? Like I would totally use it for somebody who is... Jove would be something you could use or they have these full light spectrum lights that you can buy really cheap that... Are we still hooked up with them, Doug? Yeah. Are we still hooked up with Jove? Yeah. What is... Is there a code? Yeah, no, do they get a discount? I thought that was just something we did for that. Yeah, I believe it's juve.com. That's J-O-O-V-V.com forward slash... There's no H in there? No. No, forward slash mind pump and you get a discount. So light therapy can help, a tanning booth. Believe it or not. I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, because it just makes sense if you're that deficient and you're not getting any sunlight at all. I mean, the artificial version of it is better than nothing sometimes. Dude, if you have seasonal effective disorder and you go see your psychologist or whatever psychiatrist and you don't wanna take SSRI drugs or antidepressants because sometimes they'll prescribe that stuff which I don't recommend. But again, I'm not a psychiatrist so I'll do whatever they tell you. But a lot of times people say, no, I don't wanna take these powerful serotonin manipulating drugs. Then what they'll tell them to do is to go tanning like a few times a week. And for a lot of people, it helps. It helps them because it gets their body to produce those feel good chemicals. So that's all a lot of a part of it. The other thing is this. It's hard to separate the physical from the psychological. It's very hard to do that because you could also have people that you test their vitamin D levels, they're normal. Right, physically everything is wrong. Yeah, they'll go- They're psychologically depressed.  Well, I'm gonna speculate right now but the holiday season tends to do one of two things in people. It's polarizing. Yes, it's super polarizing. There's people that love the holiday season and it just makes them so happy and Thanksgiving and Christmas is here and it's cold and they can't wait to bundle up and be in front of the fire and have hot cocoa and all that stuff.  I don't have a good family. It's expensive. I gotta buy all these presents. I can't afford it. There's a lot of traffic at the mall. It's super busy. I gotta do all these family functions. I don't like these people. This is me, bro. This is something that I've had to deal with most of my adult life and it took me until my mid-20s to get ahold of it and it's crazy you went this direction because this hits home for me because this took a lot of mental work for me like and just my attitude towards it versus trying to physically overcome it and it mines deeply rooted to growing up. Holidays were extra rough at my house. I had, everyone knows that I had a rougher childhood brain, right? Everyone, but I know everyone's dealt with something, right? So I grew up in the verbally physically abusive kind of home where holiday seasons would come around and being that we didn't have a lot of money, it added extra stress. So my parents were always really fighting around the holidays. They fought year-round, but around the holidays with kids and having five children and not having a lot of money, food and presents and all these things, it would cause all this stress. And then for many years when I was a kid, I would get money from relatives for my birthday and my family would take the money to use to put food on the table. So imagine if I was trained this way as a young kid, now I've become an adult and I don't have to have holidays if I don't want them. Now I can do whatever I want on holidays and I get in a relationship and I've got a girl who just loves the holidays and celebrates it. This was something that was very, very tough for me to, and something I still to this day have to work on. And most of it isn't something physically, it's mentally, it's learning to- The association with it all. Right, it's the association with it. And I had to learn to let go of like, these people aren't bad to me, they're not gonna take my money, there is lots of joy, there's lots of other things to be happy about. One of the things, and this might seem silly to somebody that I started, I'm probably on my eighth or ninth year now, maybe more, maybe two. Oh yeah, we're gonna do it again this year? Yeah, absolutely. So I do it right after Thanksgiving, I adopt a family that I Christmas shot for. And because, and what started this for me was- That'll give you some, that'll make you feel good. Here's what I have, I have a hard time receiving gifts.  That's why I don't buy anything. Right, yeah, don't buy me anything. And it's cause I've turned that emotion, I've turned that emotion off for many, many years.  So then I decided I'm not bothered or excited anymore. So then you get in your older years and someone comes to me and gives me a gift and I'm like, oh, cool, thanks. And they're like, Jesus Christ, man, I spent a long time making that or I bought that, it was really expensive. And I just don't have that, I can't express that.  So I would just tell people like, don't get me any gifts. So when I started to do the adopting a family, it really changed a lot for me to be able to give to people for their holidays. And so this was something during these times that really helped me. It's not about me anymore.  And now it's about this family and a family that, and it makes me feel good because there's always people out there that struggled more than you did. And when I see this, it makes me feel like my life wasn't that hard, it wasn't that bad. So what, I didn't get all these things for holidays. So what, I grew up in an abusive home, my dad died, whatever, like somebody out there that had it 10 times worse than I did. And it really puts that in perspective when I go out there and I do these things for family. So the psychological part is the game, right? That's the game. The game is to be able to break through mentally first before you start addressing, I think, all these physical things. Excellent. Next question is from Meg Eisler. Is there anything I can do to prevent my metabolism from slowing down from doing more endurance training for a 25K? Can I counter it by doing less Metcons slash CrossFit and just lift heavy? Yeah, depends on how well you wanna do with your 25K. If you wanna do really well with your 25K, well, strength training's gonna help you regardless. But part of what's gonna make you better at running your race is that slowing down of the metabolism, is that becoming more efficient with calories? Part of the reason why you're adapting like that in the first place is because your body's trying to get better at what you're throwing at it, which is endurance running. Now, I can tell you what'll make it worse, what'll make your metabolism slow down more is by restricting calories and by working out on top of your endurance training in ways that mimic endurance training. In other words, lots of circuits, lots of high-intensity workout. Which would be Metcons, CrossFit. No, not the right type of training. Horrible combination is Metcons and endurance running. It's a lot, it's a lot on your body all the time. What I would focus on if I were you, if you're doing your endurance training properly, by the way, then you should be getting all the endurance that you need from it. I would combine it with some traditional strength training just for good stability and strength. And honestly, more of my time would be spent on stability and mobility training to prevent injury and improvement. Two days, this is my prescription for this person. Two days a week, I'm running maps red, phase one. Two days a week, I'm running maps phase one of red and really heavily focused on strength. I'm giving myself as long, if not longer rest periods than what it calls for. And then the other three to five days is mobility before I go on my runs. So that's literally what I would do. Two days a week, I'm getting my heavy strength lifting with long rest periods. However many days that you're running to train for your marathon, I'm still doing that, because that's my goal at the time. And then I'm including mobility, prime type of movements before I go on my run. That right there to me is a incredible prescription to do well on your marathon, to minimize the damage to your metabolism, build some good strength, and then also be able to take care of your body by doing all the prime type movements and mobility stuff. Exactly, at that point now. Strengthen your posterior chain. Yes, strengthen the posterior chain.  You're gonna get that in maps red, phase one. Maps red, phase one is maybe one of the best things you can do for the posterior chain. Just make sure, because that keeps everything in check and in balance, because you don't wanna overextend yourself, always operating in the anterior chain.  If your metabolism is becoming more efficient and you're, because you're training right, and you're trying to build more endurance, and so your body's trying to become more efficient, that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to have a slower metabolism. Now it may be a bad thing in the context of modern life, because modern life means that you're exposed to food all the time, and you're probably sedentary when you're not training for a race. So if you have a slow metabolism, now the problems can arise where you gain body fat and have problems. Well, now you're just talking about performance, and performance stretches you outside of like what you would term like everyday healthy practices. Exactly, and think about it this way, like if I'm, we'll go extreme, let's say I wanna run a 100 mile race, which is nowhere near the distance you're trying to race, but let's just say I wanna run a 100 mile race, it would not benefit me to go into that race with this super high fast metabolism where I need to consume 6,000 calories at rest on top of my calories I'm burning while I'm running. I'm screwed. I'm literally gonna have to eat cheeseburgers and pizzas while I'm running this 100 mile race. In that particular situation, I would love a very efficient body where I don't burn lots of calories and I don't burn lots of calories while moving. So now I can run this 100 miles and I don't need to consume tons of food and I can just keep going and going and going because it's like I'm a Prius, you know what I'm saying? I'm this hybrid machine or whatever that's it. You get what I'm saying? So high performance.  Oh yeah, you owe me a car with that. It is coming bro, it is. Is that the car you're gonna get? No, Prius is too cool. I feel like I'm gonna get, what's the other one that's really, really strong on? Mini? No, not the mini. That's cool too. What's the- Fiat?  Like a pink fiat. Oh, that's cool. Don't make it pink though. Just so everybody knows. Mind bubble, you guys will know when we officially made it because I lost a bet to Sal. He made the most incredible shot ever and I said I will buy you a car if you make the shot. I am a man of my word. I was literally across the gym.  Way in the corner. I'm across the gym. I got this plastic basketball that's almost too big for the hoop. It's very difficult to get in. Yeah, no, it has to be a perfect shot. And you know, these guys make fun of my athletic ability all the time. And admittedly so, I'm not the most athletic. However, I have- You really get a carnival chance. I have- A bit. Through sheer- He's amazing. Through sheer superior intellect. I can- Oh, that was out of you, right? You mentally- I did all the calculations and I mentally willed myself to becoming out of telepathy. We made it. And I made a deal. I said, hey, when mine pump is at X amount of dollars, I will buy you a car if you can make this shot.   And it made it. It was the most lucky moment.  I wouldn't agree to that. It had to be a fair bet. Like, I'm like, hey, listen, when we're at a certain point, I have that kind of money where we can throw that away, then I will absolutely buy you a car. But you better believe he's getting something. You know what's funny? I'll probably drive it. I know you will. It'll be great. It'll be so great. And Sal will be like, dude, I was gonna get a new Jetta. I love this. I don't have to get a new Jetta now. I'll just drive my pink Fiat. It's so convenient. Didn't park anywhere. Anyway, check it out. If you go to YouTube, go to Mind Pump TV. If you like all the stuff that we provide you on the podcast, all the fitness information, all the value, our YouTube channel is all different. It's all different, all new information separate from the podcast. So you can get way more fitness information. It's 365 videos a year and it's all categorized.  All of it is there. We've already been on that channel for a long time. So go to Mind Pump TV, subscribe to that channel. Also, if you go to mindpumpmedia.com we have something called 30 Days of Coaching. It's free and it's for everybody. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.


Yesterday, I announced the $1,000 cash sponsorship for our first Master Network Viper, and I asked should the VIP networks also get sponsored. Well, you told me in the comments below that they certainly should, so today we announced the first $250 monthly cash sponsorship for VIP networks, starting with the one in the show today. Was it you? VIP networks are one level above regular networks powered by freedom, and then the VIP networks that grow to Master Networks are the ones that are getting the $1,000 a month, but we're giving the VIPs $250 so that they also have a fund, a sponsorship, to help you grow and to help them grow to Master Networks. Today's first celebrated VIP network is the Gamer's Cottage. If you look behind me, that is the video that will play as soon as I finish speaking. Congrats to Benub. Benub is the owner and founder of the Gamer's Cottage, and you can check him out in the link down there. That's his official hub channel. Well done, Benub, for becoming a VIP network. How long will it take you to become a Master Network? Let's find out. In the meantime, roll it!  Welcome to the Gamer's Cottage Network, where we take your hobby of making videos and help you turn it into a career. Now what exactly is the Gamer's Cottage? We're a fully fledged YouTube network powered by Freedom.tm that can help you take your channel and your whole experience on YouTube to the next level. In this special introductory video, we'll be going through everything from what a YouTube partnership is and of course how we as a network will help to add tremendous value to your channel and help you grow. If you're watching this, chances are that you're a content creator on YouTube and you make videos that people enjoy watching and have fun in the process. YouTube partnership is basically a way for YouTube to monetize your content that's putting up ads on your videos to obtain revenue for your views. So why do you need us? 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Let's see what's new on the Burlington Waterfront. Welcome to On the Waterfront. I'm your host, Mariah Riggs, Director of the Main Street Landing Performing Arts Center. Today I'm really excited to have two guests on the show today. My first guest is Sandrine, who's the Director of Housing Advocacy Programs at CVOEO, and Jess Hyman, who's the Associate Director of Housing and Advocacy Programs at CVOEO. Thank you, ladies, for coming on the show. Oh, thank you for having us. It's so exciting to have you here. So, just to kind of get into it really quickly, what does CVOEO do? Oh, wonderful. So, CVOEO, which is the Shemprin Valley Office of Economic Opportunity, is one of the five community action agencies serving the Northern part of Vermont. What we do is providing gap services to people that are experiencing a sort of a crisis. We have 13 programs at this time, which the Housing Advocacy Programs have four, actually include group four of them. And we are an agency that really focuses not only at providing direct services, but at really advocating for the vulnerable community members that we have in the state of Vermont. It is includes definitely trying to help them with the basics, the first basics needs that they have, such as housing, food, education for very young children, avoidization, and more. That's amazing. So, there's a lot that people can go to the Shemprin Valley Office of Economic Opportunity and reach out to you guys if they need help with certain things. Correct. That's a pretty wide net that you cast. And so, your specific role in what you guys do is the Advocacy Component. And you said that's four programs? Yes, four statewide programs. So, CVOEO is the only agency who has actually four statewide programs focusing on Advocacy, Housing Advocacy at that. We do operate the Vermont tenants, mobile home, the Housing Family Voucher Program and also the Fair Housing Project. Those four programs do provide education, direct service, of course. We do advocate in front of the legislature every year. We also provide some community organizing support. Retention services when it comes to housing, people that are actually experiencing some housing issues with their landlords or financial. And the most important when it comes to fair housing because Jess's gonna talk about the fair housing portion and education because this is one of our expertise. We do as a statewide organization programs, let's say. We really focus on working on the ground and we identify the needs that the community has and we adapt our services and programs to actually meet or try or support those needs. So it's very much a grassroots organization. Correct. And it's need-based. So what happens is the people out there who actually need your services, who reach out to you and need those advocacy is what actually drives your mission. Exactly, and all the work that we do as an organization is grounded in social, racial, economic and environmental justice. And so when, for our statewide housing advocacy programs, folks will contact us if they're experiencing challenges in their rental housing or if they're being treated unfairly based on who they are in their housing or if they're living in a manufactured home community and have questions or supports. And do you sometimes work with organizations? I would assume in the mobile home community, specifically, there's a lot of parks that have residential communities and stuff that reach out to you. Indeed, we work with communities and we work with individuals. We have partners specifically through a housing project. We work with housing providers, municipals, libraries. So we have a lot of different partners because we do understand that the solutions to our crisis, when it comes to housing, need to include everyone, every actor, important and recipients to the discussion, to the design of some type of system change that we are working for. Which is wonderful, and you know, I think part of it too is I was really excited about this interview because I feel like specifically the work that you do is so incredibly important. It's in the front of a lot of people's minds right now because what's happening in the news around housing and rent problems, people being able to afford housing, not only in Vermont, but nationwide. And you guys are very much in the forefront of dealing with these issues that are very pertinent right now to what's happening in the world. And so I just wanted to also talk to you. First of all, I wanna thank you for dealing with this for so long. It's really crucial to Vermonters and to what they're facing right now. And I just wanted to get a sense from you guys because this week we had some pretty big news. There was the 11th hour extension of the Motel program in Vermont. And I just wanted to kind of get a sense from you. A, what that meant for you, what that meant for you and your clients. And how that fight went for you guys because I know you were probably a part of that at the state house. Yeah, so it was really exciting news yesterday. And where the legislative session ended, well, before the veto session was a really strong budget that had a huge amount of wins for the affordable housing world. There was a lot of money dedicated to affordable housing development and almost full statutory funding for the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board which supports affordable housing development all over the state. And there was a lot of money that went towards services and other resources to folks experiencing homelessness and people looking to purchase homes. And there wasn't a solution to one of the biggest housing problems we have in our state which is the fact that so many people don't have access to safe, stable and affordable homes. And with the end of the pandemic era hotel program there were going to be thousands of people who were cast out onto the street. And luckily the house, the Senate and the administration were able to come together for a compromise. It happened at the last minute. It would have been really nice if it had happened earlier or even a couple of years earlier. But as of yesterday with this new bill that was passed most of the people who are currently in hotels will be able to stay through the winter. It didn't fix everything. I didn't realize it was through the winter. That's wonderful. And by the way, congratulations because I don't know if the viewers are aware of this. It was the fastest veto override in the state's history which is actually saying something in the state house. So kudos on that. And it is such a pertinent and important issue. And I think everybody's seen it and I hear about it all the time. It's hard to keep a roof over your head in the state of Vermont right now and the interest rates aren't helping. There's a lot of factors that are sort of driving besides, there's income equality, there's racial issues and again environmental issues. A lot of those things that you cited that you tend to deal with with your advocacy program that are feeding into sort of this maelstrom I would say a pretty pertinent housing crisis across the state. And so, and I think everybody feels that and you could see that yesterday with that veto override which in politics is very rare. So that's a good thing. It was a good day. It was a good day for housing in Vermont. Now, so kind of getting into that, this is very interesting.  So I kind of wanted to, everybody hears about the Motel program but it sounds like there were some other things in that program that I kind of wanted to dig out from you and hear about more. Sure, well in the budget itself had a lot of really good investments in long-term affordable housing. And that's what we need because we need both things. We need the crisis support, we need the opportunity for people to have a roof over their heads and get connected to all the supports and resources that our organization and others offer. And we need permanent long-term affordable housing and there needs to be something in between. And so that's where the work needs to happen. That's something in between. Yeah, and I think I was actually wanted to ask you, where are you seeing the need the most? As you kind of look at it systemically, where are you seeing the need develop the most? Right now we, with this veto, we somewhat postponed housing crisis situation that would have been devastating. For how long? That's the question that we need to ask ourselves. Propositions were placed in front, I know the registrators about very, sometimes risky solutions at the table. And although it seems like that this specific bell does provide some kind of a relief, we need to work towards sustainable, affordable and fair housing. That's supposed to be a practical way of thinking. But since we are where we are, we did get where we are, knowing that that might have happened, tells me that the focus needs to be in prevention more than anything else. We always react very quickly and look at the timing of the veto. Do you say it yourself? It wasn't that quick to do. Prevention, prevention. I was not saying that the state has done some particular improvement and investment in providing this type of support, such as financial rental assistance and really put money into transactional housing. But the service is the support that we have seen on the ground for these families to be navigating this very complicated system, to be educated in the fact that they have rights, but also responsibilities, the fact that they do not know where to turn to, or even if they know, we as organization supporters, supporting our vulnerabilities, have not the capacity, we have not even the ability to actually improve it, and not even that, innovatively, the services that we provide because it is based on community needs and because we have seen COVID-19 and we've seen what it has actually brought up to the surface, we need to adapt as well. But how do we do that? We don't have actually the financial support and the main power to do so. So really thinking on retention, prevention, transition supports. And something that's sustainable too. Correct. I mean, because let's be honest, keeping people in motel rooms is kicking the can down the road for somebody else to deal with it. But I know that's the end of the winter. And I know that just when we were talking about scarcity in actually getting to up at the bottom. I mean, so what do you do with the thousands of people that you've taken care of for eight months, and yet do you have the support services in order to find them the jobs or the means or do we have even have the housing capacity? Exactly. And that's what we don't have yet because it takes even with all sorts, even if hundreds, thousands of units in the works all over the state, it's still not enough. And then once these units are built, then folks have to be able to have choice and opportunity in accessing those homes. And so it's a challenge. And I think that we're, there's a lot of really great work happening all over the state with nonprofit and for-profit housing developers with all the social service agencies that are working so hard to connect folks with services. You know, our educational programs too are part of that prevention and retention piece. So what are your education programs? Yeah, so with Vermont tenants and Fair Housing, we have a series of educational workshops that help folks with the rights and responsibilities involved with Vermont rental and Fair Housing law. And then on the mobile home side, we also do a lot of education and training around resident organizing. And so- Obviously the crucial point of having mobile parks, the residency program is like what helps elevate everybody in those communities. Exactly, yeah, because mobile home communities are in such a unique situation where people may own their home, but rent their land. And Vermont has a really amazing diversity of mobile home park types, privately owned co-ops and nonprofit owned as well. And so all of our education programs really focus on helping people get access to the information and the resources and also the confidence to uphold their rights and to know where to turn when something does go wrong and to keep stability in their homes. Which can be really hard if you're dealing with a lot of issues at home, when you're dealing with a lot of stressors, like things like economic stressors, family illness. There's a lot of different varying factors that can put a lot of weight on people especially. And that can actually affect their financial capacity to have housing. And so the number one thing I would assume, especially since there are organizations like you were saying out there. Really quickly, I just wanted to, if you guys want to do a plug for some of the organizations out there, I know you guys are great, but some other organizations in case people are watching, that can also help people with housing issues. Sure, I mean there's the community action network. So there are five community action agencies all over the state. And each one provides that emergency housing services. There's also the state economic services division for immediate housing support. So if someone is literally homeless and looking to get a roof over their head for the night. Financial support as well, for the same network. Vement legal aid, provide legal services, yes. Which is crazy. And that can be really difficult too because I know we see it a lot in Burlington. Landlords can get an idea and rents can go up and things can happen and then when people are evicted, there's nowhere for them to turn. And I just know this from my own personal experiences that sometimes the bureaucracy of support services and help can be very limiting. It's almost like you need a master's to be able to access funding or access resources because can you even find it on the webpage? Or do you have access to the internet? Exactly. I mean those hurdles are so prohibitive people who are dealing with family trauma or health issues or financial instability. That, so the workshops you guys supply are so important. And so that's something too I wanted to address with you guys is to please make sure you go to cvoeo.org. They have a list of all of their workshops on there. If you're interested, if you wanna get educated, if you wanna know what your rights are and what's out there for your support. Their website has all of those wonderful resources for you to utilize. So please check that out. You know, an example of, just a quick example, what's an example of one of your workshops? Sure, so one of our workshops is tenant skills and what that workshop includes is all the basics of a tenant's rights. So what it means when you sign a lease, what a landlord can and can't do, what to do if you experience a problem in your home, what to do if you want to leave, what to do if you're asked to leave and you're not sure if it's legal or not. And in addition to that basic rights information, there's also the responsibilities of information. You know, how to be a good tenant. One thing we really focus on is relationship building and communication and making sure that there's a good venue of communication between renters and landlords. Cause often that's where things can break down and sometimes something that might be just a small issue gets elevated to a larger issue because of a lack of communication. When things do break down, we have a hotline that folks can call. Our Vermont Tenants Hotline is a great resource for folks and we hear every day we get calls from people who are experiencing challenges in their rental housing, who are receiving hundreds of dollars of increases in rent as well or facing other issues. And so we talk them through their problems, help them figure out what their next steps are and make referrals as needed. Which is an incredible asset, I mean for people. And sometimes they don't know how to talk to their landlord. And I know too, I'm sure you guys probably hear about this as well, is sometimes tenants don't realize that they do have rights, that they don't need to have mold in their house or they don't need that they should have certain, you know, they should have certain things near electrical outlets that could be dangerous for their children and those kinds of issues. I'm sure you see that as well. Yes, of course we do see that and it's not necessarily a choice. When you have housing scarcity, when you have this type of housing crisis that we are having, sometimes people don't want to be on the street. They stay in this very dangerous housing situation because they don't have a choice, because they don't have the accessibility or even the information to move forward. And like you said, if they don't know their rights, of course, you know, and there is no guarantee that the landlord will actually address those issues at all. So yes, it's very difficult. We are hearing, and it's on the rental side with tenants and we hear it with Momohom residents as well. The housing stock in Vermont is old and you know, and facing that has been made when it comes to address some issues with some incentive for them not to actually access funding with matching, of course, meaning that they have to put some of their money into it, but what is not to like there? Because you're supposed to be providing safe housing and if you are, you need to be able to maintain safe housing for your tenants. I mean, for me, it's question of community and our responsibility. We all are Vermonters. We all want the best for each other. I hope. And we need to build. Well, I know you're gonna say, oh yes, this is the song that, you know, we literally- No, but it's so true. But in reality, as a citizen, as a responsible citizen, this is what you have to look towards. It's really to know what you are offering and to conscientiously bring your best forward. There is help out there. It's not that there is none and the minimal that we might be able to bring forward as a state is more than most other states actually do provide. Well, Vermont's one of those great markets where we do have a state legislature and passing that veto is a classic example of that where people actually listen and they care. You know, of course you can never do too much, but at least there is more here than you do see in a lot of other states. And another thing I was thinking about is I wanted to ask you, what is, you know, because you're in advocacy. So what is the number one thing that people bring to you? You know, some of the biggest concerns that you guys see come into your office. Habitability issues. Okay, and what is that? Meaning that the state of the home is not safe. Really? Yes. Unsafe living conditions. Yes, yes. That's the first and has been for the longest ever. Yeah, things like mold in the home or not having adequate heat, not having adequate bathroom facilities, kitchen facilities, holes in walls, pests. Also we hear about these every day and the challenges when they're... It's really important for people to think about that. Well, exactly. And people put, as Sandrine said before, people are often afraid to complain because when there simply aren't enough homes out there people are afraid of losing their homes. And then this means that people who are traditionally subject to exclusion and segregation in their housing. So BIPOC folks, LGBTQ plus folks, people with disabilities, people with children, people who already face barriers to accessing, barriers to fair housing and equal access to housing are even more pinched when there aren't enough homes. And so they can be even more reluctant to report these things because they fear retaliation. But luckily there are laws on the books which protect them both at the state and federal level. I would assume that the state has the tenants back and would require, I mean, I work for a property management company but I don't really work in property management. I'm in the arts. But that those protections are in place and that the landlord is required to fulfill certain obligations to the tenant. And also I would hope too that there are laws in place where there's no recourse. So that a tenant has the capacity to try to advocate for themselves or their children or their family. And there is no way for the landlord to be like, ha ha, I guess he's not getting a lease next year because you did this and you made me spend this kind of money. There are laws. Yes, they're absolutely, they're absolutely, they're absolutely our laws. And they don't always get followed and they can be difficult to enforce. And so that's where the advocacy comes in is to make sure that folks know what their rights are and know when to identify when something is illegal. Cause sometimes things can be unfair and unjust but not illegal unfortunately. But there is a very clear line about what's legal and what isn't in terms of fair housing law and landlord tenant law. And so we help people identify that and to advocate for their rights and to speak up when things aren't done. And that's again really important. I wanna let our viewers know to make sure that they know to call the hotline and talk because they have this incredible resource for you guys to be able to reach out to them and talk about some of your problems. The supports are there.  And everybody wants you to be in safe and functioning housing, which I have heard. I know we've all heard the horror stories on social media. So it's nice to know you guys are there. And so I kind of also wanted to talk to it. This is the 55th anniversary of the Fair Housing Act. And so I kind of wanted to get your first of all a overview of what the Fair Housing Act actually means for a viewership and the anniversary and what that means for you. Sure, well the Fair Housing Act was passed in 1968. And it was part of the civil rights movement is what led to its passage. And what it does is it puts protections at the federal level against people being treated unfairly in their housing based on who they are, based on their skin color, where they're born, their sex, gender identity or sexual orientation, whether they have a disability or not and other factors. And what this means is that everyone has equal opportunity to housing choice and the right to have a home and live in a home, buy a home, rent a home, finance a home, live in a home free from discrimination or harassment. And I think it's important to note that this law has been on the books at the federal level for 55 years and we still have housing discrimination. Do you still see, I mean I guess that's the next question, is do you still see people who are not in compliance with the Fair Housing Act? Absolutely. Of course. Which actually Vermonters like to think that maybe they don't have that in the state, but it, so you do see it. Yeah, the most of the complaints that come into both Vermontley-Gallade and the Human Rights Commission are on the basis of disability. So people being treated unfairly based on having a either a mental or physical disability or being in recovery from substance abuse. And then these, this sort of second and third most common issues are based on race and also having children as well, the presence of minor children. Goodness gracious, you're not allowed to have kids. We're not even gonna get to talk about that. And you're born a certain way, we're never gonna take care of that either. I mean, it's terrible. And you think after 55 years we would have gotten somewhere, and right? Yes, but enforcement is what the problem lies. It's key, and laws is fine. But you give people the choice to follow it or not, but the consequences of not following it is not really there. The enforcement. The enforcement piece. The burden is put on the complainant, which is usually the renters. Oh, wow. The people being discriminated against. Really? So the plaintiff is disproportionately put on trial. It sounds like a really bad rape case. And no, I'm just saying though, but the burden of proof is on the tenant, which marginalizes a lot of people further. And that's unfortunately not really equitable. Becausely as well. Exactly. And that's unfortunate. I didn't realize that. And when someone is, say, facing discrimination when they're looking for housing, when they're trying to rent an apartment, for example, if they know perhaps that they're being treated unfairly, they still really wanna get into that apartment. And so often they won't make a complaint or won't know what to do because they wouldn't wanna jeopardize getting into that safe and stable housing. Luckily with the fair housing law, you can file a complaint after the fact. So I wanna also thank you both so much for being on the show. I very much, this is a very interesting conversation. I have learned a lot. I hope all of you have learned a lot as well. If you do have housing questions, please reach out. Again, the hotline is at the bottom. They're here to help you. There's a lot of help in the state of Vermont. This is an ongoing crisis in the state of Vermont. I know we didn't get to go into as much solution-based talking as I wanted, but maybe for next time. Thank you guys so much for all you do. And remember to reach out and stand up for your rights because tenants do have rights. People in mobile home communities have rights. The state is there to help you. And all you need to do is find the help. And we have access at the bottom of this screen and ways that you can contact and reach out and see what your rights are. So thank you guys again so much for being here. I'll see you guys again next month. Take care, bye.


God I do believe. I believe this is on the inside of me. I believe I can have what that girl is talking about right now, but I also don't believe at the same time. So will you help the places that I don't believe? Because God appreciates people who will tell them how they really feel. I can't stand you right now God. I'm not trying to listen to nothing that you have to say because it never works out for me.


I know you all are enjoying a lot at home but to make your home stay more fun I'm here with one more fun game okay and for that game what we are going to use we have to use this kind of shoebox tap and one ball and containers and one box or you can use any other place for that okay and how we have to play that see we have to place the ball here like this then shine it's too cross all the containers and then you have to drop the ball from this hole and here bingo so play at home and have fun bye bye