Chris, how are you sir? Good Chris, how are you my friend? I'm a bit gobsmacked, so for our friends at home Chris and I arranged to do this a couple of weeks ago I didn't know that Chris would be in a rock of all places So thank you Chris for sparing time from your busy schedule Absolute pleasure, absolute pleasure Yeah, I guess we've got to ask what, other than the obvious What takes you to Iraq? So yeah, at the moment I'm working out here clearing improvised explosive devices left behind by Daesh So ISIS as it's known in the West predominantly So yeah, there's hundreds of thousands of improvised explosive devices There's tens of thousands of refugees stuck in refugee camps And they're desperate to get back into their homes and back to their farmlands So there's a whole group of us going clear these devices and get them back to their farms Get their livelihoods going again and of course get people out of these horrendous refugee camps And back into their homes and start their lives again Gosh, what area is this in? So we're predominantly in, we're in northern Iraq So my colleagues and I live in Erbil in the Kurdish region of Iraq And every day we travel across the border into federal Iraq We work in the areas around Mosul and Mahmour Many people will have heard of Mosul for sure certainly And it was completely decimated actually after the ISIS withdrawal And what we found was ISIS actually, they used Mosul as their sort of headquarters If you like, their main base, the main city in Iraq And then they went across to Syria as well So we've got all these improvised explosive devices all across northern Iraq And going all the way into Syria as well So I've got colleagues over there too across the border over there, I was there last year too with them And yeah, you know just all trying to do that bit to help out and get these people, you know, get their lives back on track really Gosh, yes We'll talk more about that, hold that thought Chris I'm just going to welcome everybody at home, thank you for joining us Before we go any further, I'm going to play your trailer Chris from our last podcast Just to give people a bit of insight if I can do this without screwing it up Here we go There were Muslims who executed Croats and Serbs The level of technical sophistication that the Iraqi insurgents achieved Superceeded 30 years of insurgency in Northern Ireland And you'll go down there with your snips and basically, you know, take your balls in your hand And on my side, there were just bullets coming through One went through the side of my helmet And it hit to the gun as, you know, shell by shell Gosh, there we go What an exciting life you've led Do you ever wonder how you're still in one piece? Do you know what? It's the bits in between that make me wonder how I'm still in one piece to be honest with you You know, working in war zones and conflict zones You know, you've got to focus on a sense of purpose then But I think, you know, like many of us, I had my wilderness years The years where I went off the rails a bit You know, I needed to go and discover myself again And certainly those years, which involved, you know, excessive amounts of alcohol And going to the very depths of my soul I'm still amazed that I managed to get out of that to be honest with you But doing this, you know, this is my calling and life's good again So, yeah Yeah, good credit to you for getting over the alcohol thing It gets a lot of people, doesn't it? It gets a lot of people, doesn't it?   But, you know, you just want to kiss that green grass when you get home And I think that makes you more patriotic for sure I certainly didn't join for Queen and Country But I certainly stayed for Queen and Country afterwards, you know I became a much, much greater patriot And I think, you know, we have that extreme, those extreme experiences during that service And I think when guys leave, it's quite hard to replicate that Or find something as a substitute for many people And it's such an extreme change of lifestyle, isn't it, as well, you know, so I think, sadly, there's quite a few soldiers, you know, go down that route And thankfully, many bounce back, which is good, you know, obviously really important Do you think also that you know what you've had to learn to keep your head above water now To stay off the booze and to figure Sivvy Street and to pay the bills and all these kind of stuff Do you think that when we're in the military, we're kind of sheltered from all that kind of stuff? I think, it's funny, isn't it, you know, people say, oh yeah, in the military, you know, everything's done for you But as you well know, you know, we have mortgages, we pay bills, you still do all those things in the military I think the difference is it's such a different set up, it's such a different lifestyle from being a civilian You know, people often say, well, you know, the values and standards and the diversity and all those important things Should be replicated in the military And of course they should as far as they can be, but it's a very, very different type of organization with a very, very different type of mission So I think you can, you know, you get people who are representative of society joining it But I don't think it can ever sort of replicate it And I think it does teach you some amazing lessons in life, I think it definitely shapes you as a human being I think most people, it makes them better human beings for sure Just the experiences you have, I think, you know, the fact that you go to these war zones, you're living and working with awesome people who, you know, everything's about the team It's never about self, you know, people don't, like I said, fight for Queen and country, they don't die for Queen and country, they die for the person next to them Because you're literally there shoulder to shoulder and back to back I think all of those qualities are really, really important I think, you know, when you get out, yeah, you have a lot to figure out because it's such a different type of lifestyle, isn't it? And I think some people, it's, you know, a seamless transition, but not for many Yeah, when I think back to when I was in, I mean, the limit of my horizon was going to the gym Or occasionally I used to have a beer with my supper, which was like a big thing for, even though I was in the Marines And we did drink to destruction when we went out I never used to drink at home, it just never occurred to me And this was sort of the limits of my horizons And I didn't think about anything sort of spiritual or psychological or socio-biological All of that came later when I started to go to uni Yeah, yeah And it's ironic to think now all my focus is on trying to work out life And suss this area and learn a bit more about the human psyche And I guess a lot of it is to stay away from the substance use to figure that out Yeah, yeah So I'm quite lucky now, I'm in a place where I can see it all for what it is So I don't, because I understand it, I don't go there I don't just do abstinence in the vain hope at my life My life's alright, no, I had to figure, I had to work out the dynamics of it all So that, and if I get about an hour in the evening to relax in front of the tally And I'll always watch some YouTube documentary over anything else Yeah, yeah Anything about current affairs or alternative perspectives on life And I just think it's funny that when you're in the military or certainly for me My head was in a well different place, you didn't have to think about, I just didn't have to think about these things I think maybe a lot of it's to do with age as well, you know The age of fighting men in our military, you know, fighting men and women in our military of course You know, is much much younger and I think we have those stages in life, don't we? You know, you start with that learning stage of your life, which, you know, starts at school And continues as a young soldier, sailor, you know, marine, whatever it may be Sorry, we are in Iraq, we've just had a power cut So I'm going to look like I'm a ghost for a few minutes and then the power will come back on So do forgive me, we still have internet though, which is great, so That all adds to the, all adds to the podcast, mate So just, I thought you were going to go bang then, I thought, oh Christ No, no, all good, yeah, hopefully, yeah, inshallah So, yeah, you know, we had these three stages, the first stage being the learning stage And I think you have that stage in your life, which is, you know, almost a sort of materialistic stage And the, you know, the Maslow's laws, where you, you know, you want the house, you want the car You want the education for your children, you want that security You know, all of the things that really matter to your average human being And then the latter stage of life is that spiritual stage Where actually, you know, arguably the most important stage, the stage where you really want to figure out why things happen Why you've done the things you've done, what it's all about, you know And I think maybe you and I, you know, at our age and our stage in life, that's where we are now And I think that also, you know, mirrors through your military career as well Certainly for me it did, you know, Christ is the same thing Well, Maslow called itself actualisation, didn't he? And that's a really good term for kind of, wait When you come to fruition And do you drink now, Chris?   Why am I not successful? But you sort of almost think it's a God-given, and success is measured in many ways, by the way I'm not saying you ought to be, you know, super famous, super rich, but just, you know, whatever your goal may be You see other people achieving similar goals, and you're not for some reason And it's funny, isn't it?  You know, it's really not me at all But I think the point is... No, I think our audience would appreciate it And let's be honest, it's not as though the military hasn't got a high suicide rate So they, you know, they're getting something wrong And it's up to guys like us to help people out here I mean, for anybody listening, I too I can remember midday I could be on the phone to someone Or I could be writing one of my books And I knocked off half a bottle of rum I could never drink a bottle because I used to just get so out of it I couldn't really function anymore So I probably have to go and lie down But I think nothing of doing that And that half a bottle I could... You wouldn't... I don't think you'd notice it on me Just become part of my life But for anybody listening who might be in this situation It's just so ironic that now I'm just so different It doesn't mar my life in any way All it does, my experiences, is add to my life And I'd encourage anybody, if you're having problem with the booze Just give it up for a year Give it up for a year, because that gives you a date then to work towards If you just say, ah, stop with... You know, I won't drink on days with a Y in them Or I'll only drink when it's my cousin's birthday You're just giving yourself permission to relapse But if you actually set a date of a significant time It's remarkably easy once you go for a few days And then you have something in your life for the first time Or for me it was I realised I had power over this, which I never had before Never had before, I was always stopping at the bloody Tesco's booze aisle Having told myself that afternoon, right, not going to drink tonight Not going to drink tonight I knew it was never going to happen But that year, definitely worth doing Give yourself that power I think I added to that, Chris, as well My wife's actually a psychologist, ironically And I always believed that we were sort of 50% nurture, 50% nature We were our DNA and we were our experiences, basically And as a behaviourist, she explained it far more clearly There's three main aspects to our character and our behaviour One is our DNA, our nature One is actually our experiences But the other one's our environments as well And we've all behaved a certain way in front of certain people Like you said, you could go and get absolutely crazy When you're out with fellow Royal Marines going for a run of shore You wouldn't necessarily be doing that with your grandmother Certainly not the naked bars and all that sort of good stuff that you guys got up to I think we behaved differently in different environments And I think certainly, if you can't change your DNA And you can't change the sum of your life experiences What you can absolutely change is your environment as well And you only have to change one of those three things To be able to move forward, to be able to get out of a rut And that classic saying, you take the wrong path You go down the wrong road, you don't have to keep going Go back to the junction and go the other way, can't you? But I think you've got to, whatever it is in your life Whatever you're going to do, whether it's kicking a habit Or whether it's saving the world, finding a cure for cancer Whatever it's going to be, it's not going to happen Until you absolutely want it to happen, is it?   Yeah, I have, you know, I mean I guess first of all, it's not black and white Um, you know If you put an arms dealer in the room with me And I could get away with it, you know The chances are the arms dealer probably wouldn't get out of the room again afterwards Um, if I was in a room with a bomb maker You know, it's the same thing Um, but of course The media portrays the arms industry Um, as something Greater than it really is The defence industry, you know, all our bomb disposal equipment All the robots we use, all the bomb disposal weapons we use to save lives That all comes, you know, that's all sold at arms fairs and stuff Also, counter-terrorism fairs So, you know, to say these things are terrible Um, would be remiss Um, but I absolutely agree with you, you know Um, if you're making things like anti-personnel mines Um, they're horrendous, you know And there's lots of countries, of course, have signed up to the The Ottawa Convention Um, and, you know, the ban, the land mine, uh, ban treaty There's also many countries that haven't done And nowadays, of course, we're seeing terrorists Because there's so many of these things on the ground The ISIS are actually manufacturing them To exactly the same build and quality as, uh, you know We're seeing commercial organisations, you know, the defence industry making them So, yeah, I think it's a tricky one, isn't it? Um, and especially when We're selling them to countries that are quite unscrupulous as well Um, you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, isn't there? And I struggle with that, but, you know Yes The world's a complex place, isn't it? And it's, uh, it can be an evil place as well And there's things that we are prepared to accept And there's things that we're just not prepared to accept There's a lot of people talking at the moment about, you know, Ukraine And the terrible, terrible things that are going on there Um, and I see people saying, you know Well, you're all hypocrites complaining about this, you know Why didn't you complain about Yemen? Why didn't you complain about Palestine and all these sorts of things, you know And it's like, to a degree, they're kind of right But the point is, you know, just because we might not have complained On the same sort of global scale and protested and, you know Really sort of spoken out about those previous atrocities Doesn't mean we shouldn't be speaking about it now, you know Yes Um, Chris, sorry, uh, we've got a question from John What made you choose bomb disposal, disposal as a career? Good question Yeah, good question, John Um, so basically I joined the army when I was 16 Um, my dad had died when I was 15 I went off the rails a bit, uh, a lot And, uh, decided I was going to go and get a trade basically Like many young 16-year-olds when they joined up Um, things like A-levels in university It wasn't really open to me as an option when I was a youngster Um, so yeah, I went off and joined the army at 16 And I trained as a Russian linguist Because at the time, the Cold War was still on And there was a shortage of Russian linguists So they were trained in 16-year-olds Um, so I did that, I was actually probably the worst Russian linguist In military intelligence at the time And then I went off to Sandus when I was 21 to become an officer And I kind of took with the idea of a bomb disposal then And then, uh, um, a couple of years later Um, I witnessed two car bombs detonating in, um Lisbon in the headquarters of Northern Ireland The military in Northern Ireland And, uh, that had quite a powerful and profound effect on me really So that was my sort of epiphany moment in my calling And decided to go in there, you know I always wanted to join the army Then I decided I wanted to be an officer Um, there were a few different options open Um, but, uh, when that sort of, when that bombing occurred That's what cemented it for me, going off to become a bomb tech Yes, um, I remember the first time Well, actually it wasn't the first time But I remember the one explosion we heard in Belfast My God You could hear it right across the city Yeah, it's powerful isn't it Yeah, crazy There were car bombs and stuff when you were out there as well When they, Chris, you know, which are, you know Two or three hundred kilos of high explosive To put that into context A hand grenade holds about two hundred grams of high explosive And those car bombs that you were, uh, experienced out there Were two or three hundred kilograms, you know So, uh, yeah, the explosive power is phenomenal And, um, and once we've been in here We've got sort of, you know, ten kilos of high explosive Um, so, uh, you know They're quite powerful too Yeah, it's amazing to think that the size of a A roll of film is in what a landmine Yeah, that's right That in itself is enough to blow someone's legs off Yeah, it'll certainly blow your foot off And probably blow your, uh, blow your leg off as well, yeah Yes Got a question here from our good friend, Frank Frank's a big supporter of the podcast Thank you, Frank And he actually, um, puts his money where his mouth is Does Frank, he actually funds us as well Which is crucially important Because we couldn't, we couldn't, um Hello, Frank, good effort Yeah, we couldn't have this show If it wasn't for people like Frank And he's saying Was the hurt locker Close to the truth I bet you've been asked this question before Yeah, I have actually It's funny actually, Frank, there's, um A lot of aspects of that story Were absolutely bang on the money And there was actually, um, I wrote a book About my time in Iraq At the same time that's, um, Mark Boll Yeah, Mark Boll I think it was The guy that wrote the hurt locker He wrote his book at the same time as well He was a civilian embedded with the Americans in Baghdad And I was a captain in the army And I was operating in Bajra in southern Iraq And a very brave thing for him to do You know, as a civilian being embedded With the American bomb techs And they didn't have all the experience That we had, the 30 years of experience We had up until that point fighting the IRA Who were the world's leading bomb makers So he wrote this story And what he did was he chose bits and pieces Of all the different stories he'd heard From around Iraq at the time And chose four central characters And the way the characters behave You know, the staff sergeant, the bomb tech You know, fighting with his team That doesn't really happen, you know Getting drunk and then beating the crap out of your team members That doesn't really happen You don't really go for a bimbo downtown through Baghdad at night You know, in civis and see what happens But many of the individual acts did happen Certainly the scene where he goes down And throws smoke grenades to obscure his approach That was actually a job that I did in Bajra So they used that job in his film as well What you would never do, that famous scene, that iconic scene Where there's all the main explosive charges All the artillery shelves, what we call a daisy chain And they're all coming in on a detonating cord And he does that thing where he grabs all the deck cord And he pulls it and you see them all coming up Through the dust and the sand You would never ever do something like that So some of it was a bit of nonsense Some was a bit of an artistic licence And some of it was bang on the money And it was a thoroughly entertaining movie for sure Yes, I'm just playing a little bit for our friends now I'm not sure Can't play too much of it Because we'll be kicked off YouTube in the middle of a live show And that has happened to me before I really wouldn't So massive thank you Paul Morton out there has just kindly donated £10 to the cause Thank you ever so much Paul Really really kind I've just sent Luke a message to say Has Luke got any questions Luke's good with the old questions So if you've got a question for us Luke Luke's our podcast manager What I was going to say is What was it like presenting a TV programme You've presented this Bomb Hunters documentary Yeah, it was interesting Chris Because like you I wrote books And what many people don't realise is When you write a book When they give you a publishing deal It's not just about the quality of your book They want to know that they can actually stick you on telly That you can go and give book talks And all that sort of stuff And luckily if we've been in the military Or standing up in front of an audience So you do the book deal You then go out and basically do the publicity for it You do some book talks And on the back of that I got into motivational speaking And then someone came and watched one of the motivational talks And said Can you have a go at presenting this History Channel documentary for us So together we sort of wrote it And when I say together we wrote it I sort of top and tail the technical aspects of it But it obviously has a very talented team of writers and director And then they said Do you want to actually present it So it made me have the most tremendous amount of respect For these guys you see presenting on TV Because it's really really hard You've got to be part actor You've got to remember your lines You've got to keep up the They film everything again and again and again From different angles Keep up those energy levels all the way through Rather than just like we're doing Having a fireside chat right now So yeah it was fascinating But it was definitely Quite difficult It made me really look at TV presenters In a very different way And with far far more respect Than I'd have them in the past for sure Yeah I was thinking the other day When they have a bad day They've still got to perform haven't they Yeah yeah absolutely They've got to put the game face on Yeah no it's good It was really good And funnily enough actually How many years ago it was probably 10 years ago I just had a message on LinkedIn The other day from the producer Saying could we meet up So who knows maybe there'll be another one Wow We shall see I haven't seen the documentary Were you narrating it Yeah so basically it started off In Pretty much in Northern Ireland Back at the start of the Troubles And it's effectively chronological history Through Northern Ireland Iraq, Afghanistan, Yadi Yadi Yaa And showing the different types of devices The different terrorist bombings On the British mainland as well The 7-7 bombings and that sort of thing And then we did reconstructions Of them as well Yeah had guys that were there Guys that survived Warren Points One of the most notorious bombings Of British forces in Northern Ireland Back in the day And yeah just literally veterans That have been there Members of the public, civilians That have been there And reconstructions of the actual devices Yeah it was a lot of fun making it It was really really interesting Yeah Warren Point Was that the Paris Yeah it was actually the Paris I believe it was the Argyles We're going to get roasted now Because if I've got that wrong You're definitely going to find out about it On YouTube after this But yeah I think it was basically From memory A troop of a A platoon of jocks Had driven through They got hit by a You know this sort of tractor trailers That have all the hay bales on At the edge of Warren Point Reservoir And that detonated Command wire or radio control That detonated Caused a load of deaths And then the Paris moved in here with a quick reaction force And There was a very obvious place To have an incident control point It was sort of gateway to an estate With a sort of you know Label at the side of the road So they moved in there, set up their ICP Incident control point in there And the IRA had placed a secondary device In there They obviously looked at the ground and said Right if we plant the main device here Then that's where they're going to put their Incident control points So very very cunning and clever And of course it killed a load of Paris as well So yeah quite a horrendous day And the same day of course That Lord Mountbatten was murdered By terrorists as well That driver must have been asleep Not to spot that hay lorry Yeah I mean it's It's you know the man in the arena isn't it It's very very easy with hindsight And all the factors to sort of say Well really what was going on But I guess it was quite early On in the conflict as well The combat indicators that you and I Would have picked up on the ground You know they were sort of developed Weren't they from years and years of experience And who knows Who knows what was going through their mind Who knows what was distracting them But yeah it was the single greatest loss of life In the British Armed Forces In one day I remember meeting somebody Who was involved And they said They said to me something like I went from A four man room To just me overnight Or something like that Lost all his mates basically Yes Yes bear by the grace of God Um Can I just say a big thank you To Gary Gary's chip Very kindly chipped in some Some money in the pot Thank you ever so much Gary He said this is fascinating Yes Gary it is fascinating And this is why I like recording these conversations Because um They're quite novel really You don't get the chance to just sit down Bomb disposal expert And ask them anything That you want It's an honour We've got Frank's asking Are the suits you put on any good That's another brilliant question actually The uh The suits have continually evolved I actually did a London marathon in one of them To raise some money for The military charities once The most stupid thing I've ever done in my life by the way I was in clipped by the end of it But uh They designed to um Protect you against a certain amount of fragmentation What we used to call shrapnel In the first world war The correct term for it is fragmentation And it protects against a certain amount of fragmentation Travelling at a certain speed From a certain distance And it will protect you from a certain amount of blast Coming out from the high explosion And it will protect you as you're walking up To the other device But in all reality If the device was to detonate While you're over the top of it rendering it safe Then you'd be vaporised And at the very best Your head would be contained in the helmet Your torso in part of the bomb suit Your arms may be in one of the arms And your legs in one of the legs of the bomb suit So it's not designed to uh It's not like a sort of astronaut suit Designed to keep you safe in space Sometimes when you're wearing it You can just dispense with it If you're trying to work under a car for example An undercar booby trap You're not going to get under there with that suit Because it's quite big and bulky So you'll take bits of it off and then put bits back on again afterwards When I first went out to Iraq in In 2004 I got heat exhaustion on my first day And woke up in the medical centre tent I dealt with a bank of rockets That were stuck fast on a timer actually It was like a proper James Bond bomb The mechanism was stuck fast And we couldn't get the robot down there Because it was on undulating terrain So I went down there and I was absolutely hanging out Managed to sort of render it safe And then projectile vomited And I drank about 7 litres of water But uh Literally collapsed, went man down What I didn't realise is You're not just supposed to rehydrate water And you'll know this Chris from your time in there Various different climates You've actually got to take in all the salts as well Smashing the water back But of course when you're sweating you're sweating out all the salts So as a result Went man down Woke up in the medical centre tent And just got loads and loads of grief And ribbing from the boys for being weak basically So after that I never wore the bomb suit again For the rest of that 4 month tour It was just Not only would it curtail my capability But I'd probably more likely collapse from the exhaustion Fall on the bomb and blow myself to pieces anyway So um and out here You know interestingly In my army career I did less than 100 improvised explosive Devices and was considered Quite experienced I guess you know Um out here In Iraq, Libya And Syria I've done over a thousand Um Victim operated IDs The hardest types to do basically The ones you do by hand And my colleagues have all done the same as well You know it's a very very different level And workload And we just wear normal You know plate carrier basically What you call a bulletproof vest you know That's it And t-shirts and baseball caps And obviously the Oakleys you know And that's uh You wear what you need to wear to be able to still function Basically Yes it's um Reminding me I've just read a really good book It's about Lima Company In the Falklands so my My old company Um Quite a few of the names in the book Were guys that were still in the company When I served with them But they in the Falklands They'd wandered um or patrolled Into a Uh field of land mines What do you call it A minefield yeah Minefield Um and one of the chaps Tony I believe His name was got His leg blown off and It's God it must just get Incredibly real at that moment Yeah I mean when I came out here Um the guy I Took over from was killed Doing a uh an IED In fact I'm going to be really unprofessional I'm going to get off camera for two seconds When I grab one of these devices and bring it over and Yeah yeah yeah please do Two seconds mate Dun dun dun So what have we got Got a couple more Questions here good question there From John have the devices You dispose of Change much Over your career good question John Right Picture plays a thousand words doesn't it So these are the uh The IEDs that we're seeing Um this is the fuse here That when you step on it it goes bang And That's got about 10 kilograms of high Explosive and It's designed for a vehicle to uh to initiate This is a cutaway so All of this here is Uh fertilizer And uh an aluminium powder Um it's called anal Monium nitrate aluminium and that's what They tend to use in Afghanistan And uh an ISIS user in Iraq And then they've manufactured these uh These fuses here with a detonator there And detonating cord um And then this plate on top when you step on it It basically causes that To impinge on the detonator on a Percussion cap like a 2-2 cap That causes a detonator to detonate And then all of this explodes And it's got this metal plate here as well Which travels up through the vehicle as well just to uh You know um Extra menace to it You know when I first came here Um these are quite tricky to To render save as well we did them by hand And the guy I took over from Um uh he'd been killed the week before Doing this you know and it's quite Quite eerie when you you know you turn up And It's a small environment it's a small community So we all kind of know each other Um but even though I'd worked with These guys in in the military before Um you know you're Coming to replace a guy that I worked with for the last however many years And now he's dead And he just disappeared off the face of the earth last week And he's left his family behind you know And I was actually you know in his Bed his room would became my room That's that's really really You know quite heartbreaking And quite strange as well You know and and yeah Here I am 3 years on um Still doing it so yeah Have you got a date in your Mind when you're gonna Can we say give All this up It's funny because I I mean I retired from it Chris um and You know went on the uh commercial Circuit doing a bit of bodyguard work And then went into the security industry And became a director of a big Security organization in London Designing the security features For the the world's biggest sort of Iconic buildings like you know Buildings like the shard and the Burj Al Khalifa Those sorts of you know buildings But I was very very bored And uh I am where my daughters were You know grown up um Then I thought actually I can get back into this And it's interesting because You know we we spend our life Learning and developing these skills And Every day is still a learning Day um But there are guys in the military at the Moment that actually They missed Iraq and Afghanistan They're not really doing any Improvised explosive devices Um and they're going through the ranks in the Military uh with with comparative Little little experience and then We've got guys here that you know have been to Pretty much every major conflicts Um and then since leaving the Military they've come out to places like this Where they're doing a thousand improvised explosive devices The level of knowledge and experience Is phenomenal so we all learn off each other all the Time um and For me it's just been amazing To be able to Do what I absolutely love And I think to have a job where I And I don't mean this to sound sort of pompous Or arrogant or anything else Um I'm just a normal bloke but It's such an honour and such a luxury To have a job Where you actually do feel like You're doing something worthwhile You know um because so many people They just do what they've got to do to get by And I think it's A real gift to be able to uh Go back into the job that I absolutely love Um When I left the military and thought That's it then you know never going to be able to do it again So yeah The answer is I don't know how long I'll do it for But probably until uh Until I can't get out of bed in the mornings Yes I was just Thinking then how many Children must still be alive Because of the work you've done Um Could you imagine Yeah you know it's Yeah there was there was a guy When we were in Syria last year Um and uh Later A farmer and his son had no legs Um And a donkey had stepped on one of these One of these mines and it blew the donkey in half And blew this kid's legs off But he did actually survive So many have died but every time we do one of these I just think about that kid And you know and his donkey and think That's another farmer that can work in his farm That's another kid that's still got his legs basically Um so it is you know It is nice in that respect Yeah good good credit you may honestly it's um Yeah you should um You're a humble man But You definitely deserve all the Credit in the world Um We've got John was asking here Have the dis Have the devices Dispose of Change much Over your career Yeah another great question Um that's really interesting actually Because When I joined the military Back in 1989 as a kid It was um You know the IRA was still very prevalent Um the military were very much British Army were British Armed Forces Were very much engaged against them They were our main threat really They were one of the most prevalent terrorist groups In the world but they were The most prolific And experienced bomb makers in the world So people like the FARC rebels in Columbia um the Tamil Tigers the um Bass separatists in And the French Spanish border They would all work with the IRA And you know trade arms and drugs For uh for bomb making capability And that sort of stuff and They were definitely the world's leaders in it We went into Iraq in 2003 I didn't go Into 2004 but when the uh The main uh coalition force Went in 2003 um The IRA at that point was still the world's leading Bomb makers within 12 months Of the British And American and coalition forces being In Iraq by 2004 when I got there They'd superseded the Level of technical sophistication achieved by the IRA In 30 30 years In just 12 months and in Afghanistan In 18 months you know and so We've seen this evolution going on and on and on And then when we got to ISIS to Daesh Um they recruited People from every single Walk of life with you know their Lies were very very Convincing um and especially If you would devout about your um Muslim faith you know and believe That there was a prophecy coming and all those sorts of things Um our Baghdadi Absolutely capitalized that and And fooled a lot of people a lot of decent people as Well actually but they were they were committed But some of those people were actually You know worked in media television news So the quality of their recruitment videos Were world class and it was the Same with the weapons manufacturer We were dealing with mortar bombs artillery shells Weapon systems mines that look Exactly like you know factory precision um Precision manufactured munitions you know So yes the answer is it's uh It's evolved um and they've got better And better and better but you still deal with the Stuff that you know a school kid might make in his garden shed You know so uh It's not always the highest quality I guess the The evolutions Um To be expected if you think we've got the internet now Yeah exactly I bet there's places on the dark web you can Just find out Anything that you want Yeah for sure I think you could probably Get hold of it as well on the dark web you know Yeah of course yeah you can buy it Buy the stuff as well and have it Delivered by FedEx Shocking isn't it Yes um we've got Luke saying Uh I think Luke's asking did you ever Have to deal with a secondary Device Uh let me think Um It's funny because we always always Always all our procedures always Take into account for secondaries Uh so let me just think back Um Yeah uh One that springs to mind was was actually Back in Iraq um in 2004 Um there was a primary device At the side of the road and then there was a Radio controlled IED In a Vegetable geo vegetable gears like vegetable oil When they buy them in these great big Tins they buy it in these great big tins And instead of having Traffic cones at the side of the road Um they have have piles of rocks or these empty Vegetable g-tins Full of uh rocks and rubbish and And they had a um They were expecting us to park in there basically As a as an incident control point area And that had a radio controlled IED in it Um so You know remote control bomb basically Um But yeah there were probably others as well but Yeah um none That's been to mind Chris I'm gonna thank you Very much I'm aware that you're Uh um You're a very busy man Um do you want to just update Us on your books and give them a Shout out? I mean that's very kind of you mate um I certainly um It's a great honour to come on the show and I've Come on to chat with you and very much support Your show you know not to promote my books but As you've invited me to do so One's called Eight Lives Down um which Is a story about my uh my first Two in uh in Iraq and then the uh The sequel to it is called Extreme Risk Um a life fight in the Bomb Makers And uh there'll probably be another one Out you know um as I've it's been Ten years since I wrote the last book So um I'm sure there'll be another one about my Uh my antics and those are my muckers as Well so but yeah thanks very much For having me on and uh and thanks guys For all your questions and for supporting the other podcast Yes absolutely my pleasure Chris Really nice talk talking to you And it's just so fascinating I think everyone who's Watching or listening will Will agree it's a real honour To hear this Straight from the From the professional That's very kind mate thank you So massive thank you to you Chris Um To everybody at home Massive thanks to you all So if you could like and subscribe That would um really be appreciated Thank you was it to Gary And Paul Um and to Frank In the chat for sending us Some money really really kind of you Fellas and um That's it uh Chris Don't stay on the line because I've literally got to Turn this off and rush Um but uh Let's chat again soon And um yeah Go easy over there Thanks very much indeed Take care everybody you're the best Cheers cheers


YouTube team keep it clean What's going on is engraving here with another video And we got some stuff to talk about in the AFC North Now, you know we don't like these guys First and foremost, before I get started Let me just get this started from the jungle Let me introduce myself Me, I'm engraving This is my YouTube channel engraving vids And me, I'm a Ravens fan I know you see right now I got on a Steelers Leveon Bell Jersey So, first and foremost First and foremost For the sensitive people in here That's going to be like Oh, engraving, you're a fan of the Ravens What are you doing with the Steelers Jersey? It's not that serious It's not that serious Let me repeat it one more time I know people are going to come in the comment section It's still a trip It's not that serious But anyway Anyway, he said you got to burn that Jersey Anyway, I'm a Ravens fan I love talking about my Ravens But I love talking about any other football team too Now, he said you bought the ugliest Steelers Jersey On purpose Yeah, that black one, this is fire This one, the bumblebee one is It's so-so But anyway Really quick If you're not subscribed to this YouTube channel If you're new here Man, a lot of people came through Quick for the Steelers stuff Man, they love their Steelers I see He said you can wear that Steelers Jersey But don't pick the ugliest one they got What's up, Jay Money But anyway If you're new here Make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel And if you're old here Make sure you stay subscribed And make sure you turn your notifications All the way on And leave a like on the video too It's 35 people in here But only 6 likes What are we doing? Come on, y'all Y'all leave them thumbs up Let's get it, man Come on Anyway Real quick I already saw in the comments section My boy YG Meats said He said T.J. White is overrated Overrated Now I saw an article today That said Appreciate y'all leaving a thumbs up Man, I see y'all coming through now Thank you, thank you, thank you I read an article today that said T.J. White Y'all please Correct me if I say J.J. White Because I feel like it's coming I just feel like it's coming Any time you think what You think J.J. But T.J. White He was still his first round draft pick And a lot of people liked the pick They liked the pick They said we need a pass rusher We know James Harrison is getting old We got Bud DePri They got Arthur Moats They got some Stillers One thing about the stillers Is they always have quality linebackers They always have quality linebackers Always They always do And they always have depth At linebacker too Always got depth at linebacker Now T.J. White They said that he was actually They said James Harrison is going on a bench And he's going to be more of a relief guy When T.J. White and Bud DePri get tired He's not going to be a starter anymore Now me as a Raven fan I don't know how to feel about that Because I don't know anything about T.J. White Meach, I did read that in the article too Some stillers fans that commented in that article It said that a lot of the stillers fans Were upset about it And they were saying Oh yeah, T.J. White, he's overhyped He just had one good pre-season game And now people are hyping him up He shouldn't be starting So I don't know And yeah, I did read that same thing too That you just said They said he wasn't blocked on either sack Versus giants They said he just came in free They said he just came in free But I guess him coming in free Stillers saying you know what, James Harrison You're an older guy here You're a workout freak Because this dude is super strong James Harrison is a beast Any Ravens fan can tell you that Any Ravens fan can tell you that I'll be one of the first people to let you know And I'll admit it too, man James Harrison is a beast We know it We Ravens fans know it But I guess stillers feel like They want to inject the youth movement Ain't nothing wrong with that The young guys got to take over The old guys can't hold it down forever You got to inject the youth movement So it's time He said take off that trash bag You'll mess up your chair I know them comments are coming I can't wait to read them after this video goes up Anyway, oh man, there's 40 people in here But only 22 Y'all make sure y'all leave a like on the video, man Is that a Ravens fan? It sure is It is What's going on, Linkref? James Harrison, yes He was on the Ravens before Yes, a lot of people don't know that Was he undrafted? I believe he was undrafted They had him on the team They cut him into pre-season or something like that Jay Frank said he's not sold on TJ White yet His sex was way too easy that game I like that I like that That jersey is blessed for me Practice squad, there we go James Harrison is a monster Future Hall of Famer See, that's the respect I'm talking about I love when fans, they don't like a team But they can still have that respect That's what it's about Those are the best of my favorite kind of football fans The ones that you may not like a team You may not like that they always beat you Or you may not like that y'all games are always stressful But when you have respect for the team Those are the best type of football fans in the world Best type There's none better than that TJ White gonna be nice From what I hear up in Wisconsin, he's good Okay, well we know who to look out for We know who to look out for Looks like just the AFC North Both the Steelers drafted TJ White And the Browns drafted Miles Gears So they already trying to improve their pass rush And they were looking at us like Raven, y'all offensive line was weak last year They were all banged up and hurt Y'all offensive line was weak So you know what? Let's go ahead and try to one up y'all By getting these nice pass rushes And these nice young guys Who are gonna be out here looking for something to prove And they're hungry So say, hey, it's all good, man It's all good We did the same thing Yes, Malachi said don't forget to tie his Bowser Yes, we did the same thing We try to improve our pass rush too Cause if Terrell Suggs ain't gonna last forever I thought he was gonna retire two years ago Then I thought he was gonna retire last year But he still keeps coming back But at the same time He is not going to be around forever And the Ravens have not proven That they found a good replacement form They have not proven that yet The Steelers are trying to groom T.J. White By James Harrison What are you doing?  Pass rush is the key to beating New England If you can't outscore them Yeah, that is one thing I'm not bashing at all But that is one thing that Pittsburgh struggles with Is New England They don't even really give them games And again, that's not a bash That's just the honest truth Steelers fans know it New England fans know it Any fan of any team, they know that The Steelers, that is their kryptonite New England But still, let's discuss that hefty bag here, Rockin Steelers play too much zone Yeah, Tom Brady just eats them up In the middle of it all He eats them up Now, as Ravens fans With New England, they're not our kryptonite I mean, but last year, boy They just made us look like We were just regular citizens And they were Superman But we've already proven we can beat them We know what it takes to beat them I think Steelers haven't beat them In like five years or something like that I think Meach had brought up the stat The other day in the stream I forgot what the exact number was But Steelers, they already know When they play Baltimore, they're going to be in the game When they play Bingles, they're going to be in the game When they play Browns, they're going to be in the game They know that The division is going to be close I think it's going to be only Steelers and Ravens And the thicker things at the end of it I think Bingles are going to be there But Bingles are going to fall off toward The last like four or five games My opinion, not yours You might not agree, you might agree, whatever But I don't think Bingles are going to be In the thicker things this year At the end, when it's all said and done And Browns, I feel like Browns Are going to have more wins than they had last year What do they have? One win last year? Or was it two? I think it was just one But I think, I feel like the Browns I'll give them five games Straight up, I'll give them five games But yeah, Jay Frank, I said that before too They're going to be a scary team in a couple of years I said about two, three years Yeah, about two years Browns doing some things over there man Okay, they won one game last year Yeah, it ain't hard to beat one game I'll give them four or five this year I'll give them four or five Browns seven and nine And the Browns have one win Seven and nine, that's pretty good That's a pretty good jump I don't think the division record wise Will be that close but games win Wait, what, James Harrison's bench? Yes, King Stacey James Harrison is bench for the rookie T.J. White T.J. White T.J. White Shout out to his brother, J.J. If he can even be half as good as J.J. That'll be a nice investment Because we know J.J. is a monster We know J.J. can play a little offense too He said T.J. White better than J.J. White Well see, didn't they drag the QB too? Now for that, you're going to have to Ask the Steelers fan because I have no idea Oh, hold on, is it Josh Burns? Josh Buns, Josh Is it Josh Dobbs? Who's the Steelers, who's number five For Pittsburgh? Josh Dobbs, okay, there we go Aaron just put it up Appreciate that See, I did see some of that pre-season game Now he, when I watched I watched Deshaun Watson in the Texans game The dude looked super comfortable He looked chill He looked like he had been playing for years I watched Josh Dobbs in that Steelers game He didn't look the same He didn't look the same He didn't look as comfortable as Watson Not even close to as comfortable as Watson He didn't look the same He looked shaky Now again, he is a rookie But at the same time There shouldn't be as much pressure on him Because he knows He knows big Ben is there And big Ben, odd drama queen That he is Because, y'all are, am I retiring? Am I going to retire? No, I am not going to retire Well, I'm going to retire I'm not going to retire I'm thinking about retiring No, I'm not going to retire Change my mind, should I retire? No, I'm not going to retire You know what, I retire You know what, I'm not going to retire anymore Okay, I'll retire You know what, nevermind, I'm not going to retire anymore Okay, I'm not going to talk about Retirement any more You know what? retirement. Man, but this dude, uh, Brodless Burger, jeesh, with the whole retirement thing it's like just shut up and play. We know you ain't going nowhere. We know you ain't going nowhere. Jeesh, I feel like for Big Ben to retire, I feel like he's gonna have to get knocked out of the game and I'm not saying I wish that on him. I'm not saying that so don't get that twisted cuz I know some people like taking words and twisting it. I'm not saying that at all. But I think that Big Ben better than Flacco and that's facts. Duh! I said that before on the stream. I forgot which video it was. I've been said that. That's old news. That's old news. Ben Rothesburg is way better than Flacco. That's old news. We know that. But I think for him to get, for him to retire, he's gonna have to be like knocked out of the league. But anyway, he's a beast. He's a beast. I just don't like all the, I'm gonna retire. I'm not gonna retire. I'm gonna, it's just so annoying. But TJ Wattman took over. He took over. Matt Ryan better than Joe Flacco. More facts. Hey, he just not as clutch. Matt Ryan, I feel like when Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco is tough. Yeah, Matt Ryan does have the edge. He got better numbers of course. But he just not clutch. He's not clutch like Flacco is. Or like Flacco was, my fault. I don't know how clutch Flacco is anymore. Because we don't get put into too many of those situations. But, because, you know what? I was thinking about that this morning. Because this morning, I was sitting on the toilet and I was watching YouTube videos of all Raven's games. And I was thinking, I was like, man, I said, I said, I remember the time back when if Baltimore was down, if they were down by like seven or less, and we had the ball with two minutes to go, you just knew they were gonna score. I remember that time. And I was, I was thinking about that this morning, because I was watching all these old Raven videos. I'm like, man, there used to be a time where we just knew we were gonna get, either get in a field goal range for a game winning kick or Flacco was gonna lead us on a drive or something. I remember that. But recently, it just hasn't been the same. I mean, it's just been a lot of letdowns recently, mostly because of injuries and stuff. So we haven't had the quality of players that, we haven't had our quality of players on the field. And that makes a lot. Oh man, I did watch highlights of that game too. I watched, and I watched highlights of the Ravens Top 10 plays, the NFL Network Ravens Top 10 plays from last year. And one, one of the plays was the Cow Juice Check Run.  He trucked over one of their safeties and then put his hand to the ground, stayed up, kept his knees off the ground and dove into the end zone. And it was like a five, six yard run.  That man, that Cow Juice Check Run. Now, something that was kind of sad was that usually when you think of Top 10 plays, and again, this was NFL Network that made this list, not me. I'll check on that for you, Savage Raven. Now, usually when you think of Top 10 plays for a team, we're gonna get back on a subject in a little bit. But when you think of Top 10 plays on a team, it's usually a big, a big hit for a fumble and a recovery for a touchdown or passing touchdown, big rushing touchdown or something like that. Not for Ravens. Not for Ravens. I saw, they were like, Oh, Top 10 plays of 2017 for Baltimore Ravens. One of them was Bashar Perryman's first catch when he caught it on the Bills over Stefan Gilmore. That was one of the Top 10 plays of the season. The season. I'm like, really? Like a 38, 40 yard catch is a Top 10 play of the season? Not even a touchdown. I was like, wow. That's when you know your season was pretty bad. But anyway, Kyle should have stopped at the first yard line. No, you can't say that could have would have should have because what if Steelers would have stopped us period? What if we wouldn't score? What if they would have stopped us on the goal line four times? I don't think he should have stopped. You got to get it, man. You got to get it and you got to trust that defense and the defense almost held it, but they just couldn't. They couldn't. So that was who that was a sad that game took took out my life, man. That game took the life out of me, man. Oh, that game took the life out of me, man. That's what Kyle said. He said it hit in his mind. He trusted the D. Oh, well, there we go. It's going to be weird seeing him in the 49 is Jersey. That's going to be really weird, man. I wish we could have kept I wish we could have kept juice. But at the same time, it's like Ravens with full backs, but juice is special. He wasn't just like the regular full back. He could block all right, but he could really catch. He could run. He could make stuff happen. He could make stuff happen. But here's what it is. Anyway, Baltimore winning in Fox Brothers. Oh, that's a great feeling, man. Whenever they go to Fox Brothers, just especially in playoffs, you just have so much. It's you have that scary confidence as a Ravens fan is scary confidence. Because it's like, Yeah, you're scared. And of course, you're going to be extra nervous in playoff games, extra nervous, even though we haven't felt that feeling in years, because we haven't been in the playoffs. But you feel extra nervous in playoff games. You like, for me, I start like shaking and stuff. I get all like quivering and stuff. And I've been like shivering and my my teeth, they doing like those cartoon characters teeth when they take out the teeth and put it on the table and they go, my teeth are doing that. And I'm getting all nervous and stuff. But it's crazy, man. It's it's crazy when when your team is in the playoffs. But like I said, Ravens, we don't get that feeling. We haven't got that feeling in a long time. It feels like it's been ages. We do for it. We do to have that feeling again this year. Yeah, KDG, I know you know, y'all always in the playoffs. Yeah, same way, same way. And I don't I don't mean to make this too personal. But I know for what how I used to be, it ain't been like this in a little while. But how I used to be, I guess it was when we were winning more. So my stomach was a little more crazy. But when we used to be winning a lot more, I used to get nervous before the before the games, I would not eat anything. But I would take like two or three dumps. It never failed. Never failed. And I only share this with y'all because y'all family. I share this with y'all because y'all family, I know some people going to be like, cool, man, engraving, that's TMI. Y'all are family. So I'm allowed to say that to y'all, man. I'm allowed to say that to y'all. I didn't purchase it, Joey. They got it for free. But yeah, that is that's how it is with me, man. That's how it is. I get nervous every Ravens play. But I love watching them. Yeah, that's true. They give us a heart attack, man. The old Marley Humphrey playing tomorrow. That's what's up, man. Oh, yeah, we're going to talk about Ravens later on. I told you, I got to save Ravens for last because we could talk about them forever. But yeah, it's true. My stomach, it just before games, I get extra nervous. I can't eat for nothing. My favorite meal could be right there in front of my face. It could be it could be barbecue ribs, fries, burgers. It could be a nice margarita, some type of sweet drink. It could be whatever. And anything that I like, if it's right there in front of me, I just I can't eat it. It's just going to sit there. It's going to sit there. But not for preseason. I get nervous even in preseason game. Whoa, boy. Well, I don't get nervous like that. I get I get a little excited because I'm like, yeah, I get to see my team play. That's it. But so yeah, man. Oh, I think Carter's Netflix just stopped. You need a recharge son? Come on. But yeah, man. So Pittsburgh, your boy Harrison is a bench player now. How do you feel about that? But we know he's still going to get in the games. That's we know he's still going to be in the games. He's still going to cause havoc and it actually might actually work out for him better because with him coming off the bench, he'll be a lot less tired. He'll have all that energy. And he'll just be ready to go wreak wreak some havoc in the back field, man. So TJ White, you almost feel like his spot is not is not even fully guaranteed. I feel like it's not even fully guaranteed. Reason I say is because I feel like what if he's struggling? What if he's not getting to the past? I mean, not getting to the password. So nobody what if he's not getting to the what if he's not getting to get into the quarterback? What if he's not creating the past rush? What do you do then? Do you still leave him out?  It's nice that the Steelers got those options. That means they have depth. So hey, we'll see, man. We'll see. But anyway, to real say, how did you become a Ravens fan? Um, I wasn't really that into football. Um, until about 2000. And it was after it was the Ravens had already won their first Super Bowl. So I think they sucked at you anyway. But it was in 2000. Um, or 2001, one of those two. Anyway, I had I moved to Florida. And for I used to go to Maryland during the summer, go back home. So my aunt, she took me. She was like, Oh, Justin, I'd like to say, Oh, and Raven, but no, she said, Oh, Justin, you want to come to a to a football game? I said, Sure. No problem. She said, Yeah, you can come to Ravens game. I said, Okay, cool. So she took me. I believe the game was, um, it was either Ravens and Titans or Ravens and Steelers. One of those two. He said, Jerry, you look like a FIFA referee. But yeah, and then I fell in love with the game ever since, because that's when um, Ray Lewis was on the team and he had came out to the hot and here. And I was like, man, this thing kind of hype, man. And then the rest was history, man. The rest was history. So that was it. But yeah, anyway, we're gonna go ahead and get off of here now. Um, any dolphins fans, I know we don't have that many of them that come through. But dolphins fans, we're about to talk about dolphins next. Um, your father started a family from Jacksonville. Ooh, I like Jacksonville. They got a real nice beach. Jacksonville cool, man. It's a real chill place, real chill place. Um, but anyway, dolphins fans, we up next. We got to talk about some Jay Cutler.  If you're new here, subscribe. If you're old here, stay subscribed and turn notifications all the way on. It's the little bell next to the subscribe button. So after you subscribe, turn the notifications on so you don't miss any of these videos, because we're in fact about to go live in another two minutes. Now I appreciate y'all. Thank you. This was this was a lot of fun as it always is, man. Appreciate y'all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll see you all in a couple minutes, man. Shout out to Carter in here too, man. So I see y'all in a couple minutes. We're going to talk some dolphins. We'll be there soon.


It is 522 and I will call the third special Common Council meeting to order. Will the clerk please call the roll Will the clerk please call the roll? All the person athlete all the person Decker All the person Feldy all the person Felicky Panosky all the person Heidemann all the person Mitchell all the person Pirella All the person Raimi here all the person Rust here all the person Salazar There are 10 present. All right. Thank you for those in attendance. Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance All right First we'll start with public forum. Oh the clerk, please Call the first person And then rust just please state your name and your address Okay My name is Russ Otten 2522 South 7th Street in Shevoi And you have five minutes. Thank you. It's our clock. I'm watching. No, I can give you a minute Okay, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight on June 22 of 2020 The Common Council voted 9-nothing to hire Todd Wolf City Administrator The Common Council members included Mary Lyndonahue, President Ryan Sorenson Dean Decker Betty Ackley and also Barbara Filthy on November 7 two years two months later Common Council voted 8-to-2 to put Todd Wolf on leave to begin an investigation with no goal parameters or timeline The Common Council members voting for this included Betty Ackley Dean Decker Barbara Filthy January 6 this past Friday The Common Council created a resolution to fire Todd Wolf without cause was authored by Roberta Felicki Paneski and Barbara Filthy Common Council members supporting it include Betty Ackley Dean Decker Barbara Felthy My key question is this Betty Dean Barbara What did Todd Wolf do that was so egregious to have you vote for his firing tonight? I know you don't have to answer that question But I want that to go on the record. What is it that he did? number two Betty Dean Barbara You ran an investigation that showed nothing that would warrant his firing yet You are firing without cause It can't be his management style Because you knew that when you hired him It can't be for physical or I'm sorry for fiscal Irresponsibility Because he has saved millions of dollars for this community It can't be for ethical lapses Because you knew his ethics from being on the Common Council with you And even elected him Common Council president one point So why do you want to fire him? Your resolution Betty Dean and Barbara states that firing without cause is quote unquote More effective more cost effective and would minimize the negative impact on both Wolf and other city employees I think this should be rephrased to read After our extensive two month investigation. We cannot fire Todd wolf for cause He has done nothing that rises even close to for cause However, we eight Common Council members still want to fire him Because we don't like the way he stood up to the demands of a far-left group That represents about 10 of all sheboygan residents Tonight right now I am asking each of you each of you all ten To think for just a few moments About how you're going to vote What statement will this make about our community? What is truly honorable? What is the right thing to do? Be driven by your love of our community not slaves to an agenda Be driven by your love for all people not of vindictiveness toward those with whom you disagree And I close with this christ taught us to love even those who oppose us I love each of you. I really do and I don't even know half of you But I love you and it doesn't matter what you stand for I still love you And I'm hoping that love tonight will be enough for you to change your minds. Thank you John doleson And john if you could please state your name and address Yes, sir john doleson 409 new york avenue In the city of sheboygan. Good evening Appreciate your opportunity or my opportunity to speak to you tonight When residents in the city vote for common councilmen and women to represent us in city government It is exactly that to represent us not personal interests or agendas You're our vote in making decisions and being transparent at the local level Obviously, we can't all be at the table with a vote in committee and council meetings One major decision you made recently that seemed to bode well with residents And after your apparently extensive interview process was to hire mr. Wolf as city administrator In addition to many job duties you hired him to fulfill One major item was to carry out the task of basically being the fiduciary of each of us collectively and to develop A fiscally responsible budget to wisely spend our taxes Budgeting with often limited resources, especially from the state and seemingly Never-ending needs as an arduous task working in county government are more than familiar with local government budgets Mr. Wolf most likely along with input from department heads developed a budget for city spending that Unfortunately had to leave many items out off the budget As so often is the cause Are the case spending our tax dollars on non tangible items such as studies May not be as important for all residents when resources are limited Sheboygan residents want to save community with supported police and fire departments decent streets clean and maintained park shelters sufficient garbage collection plowed streets in the winter etc Generally what a city should provide One item that did not make the annual budget seems to be this study and appears now to be the reason some in the council Would like to let mr. Wolf go the officially it's proposed to let him go for Quote without cause Unquote when anyone could easily surmise that there is in fact a cause If that's not the case why on earth would we all be here tonight? It begs one to question why someone on the council would be desiring this proposed resolution When the counseling just recently hired mr. Wolf does he not fulfilling what the council hired him to do? I would say he is Or did someone on the council not get their wish or agenda item included in the budget? Please enlighten us The process you're going through is not proper If there are underlying issues with mr. Wolf's job performance or other areas of city government Then similarly state that It is not your job. It is your job. I'm sorry. It is your job as councilmen and women to let us know It's the whole reason residents voted for you to represent us and to be transparent What's going on tonight is wrong with this proposed resolution? It is the exact opposite. Please do not pass this resolution tonight. Thank you for your time Aaron Gunther Aaron Gunther And Aaron if you could state your name and address, please Aaron Gunther 2049 white pine lane Sheboygan thank you your honor Miss president members of the council I have no idea whether to make a statement in support of todd wolf or against him wisconsin statutes 1981 chapter one states it is declared to be the policy of this state That the public is entitled to the fullest and most complete information regarding the affairs of government And in chapter two all meetings of all state and local governmental bodies Shall be publicly held wisconsin 1985 see Provides a personnel matter as a reason to go into closed session It does not specifically provide confidential privilege here statutorily It is only implied Furthermore what is clear by case law if todd wolf has waived his confidentiality regarding defamation Then there is no privilege for a personnel matter and he has By making a statement publicly that he is a target of a political witch hunt He would also provide you a waiver today tonight to make this closed session notes public We demand to know what happened Did todd wolf steal money? Did he abuse a child? Was he accused of sexual assault at the office? Is he a target of a witch hunt? The council has said nothing except that there was an investigation and you want to remove him and not for cause As a result of this investigation That sounds to me like you are exposing this city my tax dollars me to a lawsuit that he will win First I demand that you hold your vote to remove todd wolf until the after the public Can give you their opinion on the matter Second I demand that you release the investigation with or without his consent To the public because we deserve to know Third I demand you lift any alleged privilege and let the council and the target speak about what has happened Tierney is born in the dark I fear oppressive government You are an embarrassment to this city You know it and I know it and you know better Now I have with me here Here is a legal request for what I just stated on the record Thank you Mike van der steen All right, Mike, you know the drill name and address Well, it's a little different being on this side of the desk But um, good evening everyone Appreciate everything. Uh, it's been said prior to me Mike van der steen 3816 high cliff court Over two months ago the council leadership came and asked you to suspend administrator wolf At this closed meeting I assume that they outlined some alleged transgressions that Convinced the majority of the council to that further investigation was necessary An attorney was then hired to conduct an investigation which included compelling staff to participate Because the document that is on the agenda tonight to dismiss administrator wolf without cause This leads me to understand and I'll think everybody else in the room That this did not find any problems with the city administrator's conduct I worked extensively with Todd wolf as a committee appointee and all the person council president and administrator During this tenured time frame. I found him to be very dedicated to serving the residents of sheboygan as Administrator he has worked Transparently and diligently to create synergy within our departments and improve services that would Provide efficiency and many cost savings during his tenure administrator wolf Administrator wolf has had many notable accomplishments including the implementation of the carlson debtman's compensation study the tallyer munis city software update and more staff training the city property appraisal plan the bonding plan to the fund capital projects and maintain Moody's double a2 bond rating for the city the uptown social building project Implementation of the cla recommendations in the finance and HR departments, and he completed the city's first five-year fiscal plan He's arranged for the purchase of new equipment including infrastructure like the fire pumper truck the south side sewer project 10 new buses enterprise free management program he's worked to update the employee handbook and Implement the my civic electronic community information and engagement program just to name a few To dismiss administrator wolf without cause will be an expensive payment for the taxpayers that will exceed $200,000 It won't be fair to tide who has been a dedicated employee And it sends a negative message to current employees that may And may make it more difficult to retain in higher staff in the future Our residents are also concerned about Why and and and really want to understand this why this dismissal was being proposed I believe and hope that you will reject this proposal proposed by council leadership To dismiss administrator wolf without cause and allow him to continue his role as administrator I know because of the emotions involved in this matter will not be an easy process But I believe if everyone really sets what's best for the city as their priority Would this allow everyone to overcome these differences when administrator role was approved by the council The practice was started to have weekly meetings between the mayor the council president and vice president And the administrator to discuss and see reports on the work plan That was going on in his office I understand that these meetings are continued on thursdays every week And the place where the administrator should be receiving Direction from the council leadership I've talked to Todd and know that he is committed to resuming his role as administrator if you give him the opportunity He would welcome the opportunity to regain the confidence of the city council And some people may be wondering why Todd isn't here tonight He's still under orders by this council not to set foot in any city building or talk to any city staff. Thank you very much Tracy brunette Tracy if you could say your name and address please. Thank you Sure, my name is Tracy brunette, and I live at 12 29 north fourth street in the city of shiboy again. Thank you Good evening I'd like to start by thanking the council for their tireless work on behalf of our beautiful city I was born and raised in shiboy again, and I care deeply about its future I wasn't going to come tonight because the social media and the news outlets portrayed this as a meeting as a showdown Which made me think that the focus would be on drama instead of the facts But then I thought about how there are so many people Just like me who are not interested in the drama Perhaps the chaos and that cared deeply about our city too They know this is a tough decision But that is why we elected you to search for facts And then make the right decision for our city no matter how difficult or controversial it may be There is not a single person in this audience tonight that has the information and facts that each of you on the council has And because this is a serious personnel matter. It would not be right for you to share it Instead our expectation is that you do proper due diligence and legal investigation Which in this case is now completed to uncover the facts so that an informed decision can be made That time is now My message to you is that you separate the emotion here tonight from the facts you have discovered through your due diligence It is why we elected you We trust that you will make the best decision for our city And we are behind you Thank you for your time Thank you That concludes public forum for the evening Next is item number four resolution number 120 22 23 by alder sveldi and flicky panaski terminating Todd wolf is city administrator pursuant to paragraph 12 a of his employment agreement with the city and authorizing the payment of Severance pursuant to paragraph 13 of said employment's agreement alder feldy. I move to suspend the rules Second there's been a motion any objection to suspension Seeing none, please proceed with your motion. I move to adopt the resolution There's been a motion in second any discussion Alder heighten yeah, thank you, mayor um I've had a couple of uh motions that I'd like to make And I don't really know which one to make And will I have the opportunity to make both motions? That's going to be a city attorney question. Yeah, well, I'm I'm waiting for the answer Well, you can there is a motion on the floor so you could certainly make a motion to amend Thank you very much So that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a motion to amend this document and I'd like to amend the resolution to change the word from terminating to written warning Also to change all languages has to do with severance and anything with termination How an article in shaboykin press can achieve this results is mind blowing The the truth has to come out The investigation was far from conclusive Please take this opportunity to change your minds Surely we do not want to be wrong about this There's a motion in second. I'm city attorney So, uh, could you could you state the motion so that so that we know exactly what it's going to be being voted on Move to amend the resolution To remove all we're all wording that has to do with termination and put written warning I think you said also something else beyond that anything else It's I mean I read the resolution. It's got a lot of other documentation or language in there about how he gets his severance and everything else Basically what I'm asking is if we can just rewrite this resolution to include A written warning as opposed to termination Well, that's that's why you make the motion to rewrite that and so that's what I'm asking you to do Well, we'd have to yeah, we'd have to have it rewritten and voted on yes Right and the way you do that is by making a motion to amend you've you've made a motion that includes Replacing the word terminate with written warning And then you need to indicate what you want what you want to remove and you need to be specific So if you want to remove paragraphs if you want to remove lines you need to be Specific so that we know exactly how we'll read once you're done. Okay All right. Thank you trinny. Okay in a paragraph for what one Illumini terminate hod wolf To giving to giving him a written warning Okay, so we're changing specific language. So what you can't just sort of like say I want to change the meaning of this Um, you have to use particular language to do it. I would note that um The the chair meaning the mayor may want to wish may wish to rule on whether this is a germane motion Because you also when you make a an amendment to a motion The purpose of an amendment is to amend not to completely change the document Thank you, attorney.  Okay You know what has to be eliminated I'm not I'm not an attorney I'm a citizen of shabuigan. I represent the 10th district And I want something different in this Resolution other than terminating So what you would need to do in this case because you're completely changing this and the mayor has it ruled on whether It's germane or not But realistically the way you would do what you want to do Is to vote against this and then and then make another motion Okay, and I ask you if I had a motion where I wanted to file the document You can you could do that as well. Would that be a simpler way doing it? It would be you'd have to you'd have to vote down the motion That's before you because that takes precedence a motion that's been made takes precedence over a motion to file But then then once you voted it down you could then make a motion to file the document So, how do I how do I get this to a vote job? What what is it that you would like to get to a vote? Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to the And and I understand I'm sorry.  Please. I can't hear you. Okay. I'm gonna reef I'm gonna make the motion to file this document You you already made a motion you'd have to withdraw your amendment I don't know which one's gonna work, mayor Okay, I I can't do on both So Process takes place one item at a time. That's that's how process works as you know as you've been in all them in a long time So you have a document in front of you you can vote it down or you can amend it Because it appears that what you're trying to do is not to amend it but to completely change it You can vote it down and then after that you would certainly have the ability to make a motion to file So that it goes away because merely defeating this isn't necessarily going to make it go away Because it it is it does require a super majority or you could make some other motion at that point like to to Give the administrator a written warning or something like that Okay, um Got me in a tough spot here What I'm going to do is I'm going to remove the Retact the motion to take termination And make it written warning And then I'm just going to make a motion to file the document Okay, so you wait. So I'm I'm helping the clerk here. You've withdrawn your Motion to amend correct And you're asking to make a motion to file the document. Yes Is there a second Well, it's not it's not a motion that's that's in order because there's already been a motion made and seconded to Adopt it. So at this point his motion is not in order, but it may become in order at some point okay, so Elder heidelman you've withdrawn your amendments any other You still have the floor Okay, so again, so that means I can make the motion to file the document again So you've made a motion to file the document. I haven't heard the the mayor rule it out of order It is out of order, but the mayor has to make that decision not me based on counsel. It's out of order So now that you've heard that it's out of order there can be an objection to the to the to the chair's ruling From another aller Not hearing that then what will happen is then they'll continue discussion on the Motion that is currently in front of you and then if if you're successful in defeating that motion Then you can make another motion at that point so I'm out of order And the motion to File is not good. You're not going to go along with that even if I have a second The the motion to file is not germane at the moment because it does not take precedence Over the motion that's been made which is to to to pass to approve now you can Vote that down you have every right to vote that item down and if you vote it down Then you can make a motion to file, which is what you want to do Okay, well like again, I I've never was an attorney I am an older man And I know this resolution is wrong So in some way somehow somehow some way We've got to do a better job than this resolution It's our responsibility and again, I'm uh I don't have the uh technical jargon or how to go through this to get something done that I want to get done Other than the fact that Passing this tonight would be a big mistake And I thought by just Just seeing written warning Because I've heard that before you've all heard that before But that's not where the council went They went to dismiss so Again I guess I'm at a loss of how to make the motion if someone else could make that motion for me that That would be fine All right. Thank you. Older Heidemann older decker Thank you, mayor First of all, I want to make this statement that's It has been stated by many that this is political I can assure you it from my perspective My personal perspective, I don't know everybody else in the their feelings, but this is my perspective It is in no way shape or form political Okay, I'm sorry Please let the elder speak After concerns were brought forward. We had several meetings in closed session as you all know And at the beginning of November and jury the council decided to hire an independent investigator That investigation has concluded after this we held discussions On our options and a majority Of the council felt the resolution before us was the best option I personally after hearing the synopsis of that investigation after hearing that synopsis And weighing the options before us have come to the conclusion that this isn't the best interest of our employees I know this isn't popular And therefore the city itself To take care of our employees is important to us. I know this is one employee doesn't stand over all the rest of our employees To put our employees through something like this is not right. So that is why I support this. Thank you Thank you. Older decker older mitchell Thank you, mayor, I will keep my comments brief tonight because most of what I would like to cover I'm not able to discuss but I do think it's important to focus on or I guess reflect on the fact that there can be a difference between what is legally permissible and what is just from a moral perspective and I I have a hard time understanding how tonight's proposed action can satisfy the latter I will not be proposed. They're supporting the resolution due to this From my perspective administrator wolf has been a dedicated civil servant who truly cares about this city This has been evident to me in my interactions with him first during his time as council president and More recently through his tenure as city administrator up until now In that short period of time Todd's brought numerous ideas to the table that have greatly improved the city's capacity to serve its citizens The organization is better off having had him And as such termination without cause is something I simply cannot support right now And to try to help out and all their height of men's motion I believe a motion to postpone indefinitely would be subsidiary and to remain at the moment correct It would be Then I will make such a motion Is there a second Second to postpone indefinitely. There's been a motion in second to postpone indefinitely That does take priority and so it does go immediately to a vote. There is no discussion No discussion. All right. All those in favor to postpone. Definitely. Please state. I I any objection to postponing state nay Nay, all right. If any of the chairs nays have it We're back on We're back on the main motion any other discussion on the main motion Members of the audience don't get to dictate a roll call vote Back on the main motion Anyone wishing to speak? He's not queued in on the machine anyone else wishing to speak aldermitchell Can't queue in twice Mayor I would request that we take a verbal roll call vote on the main question. Thank you There's been a request to take a roll call vote On postponing indefinitely If you're in favor of postponing, please state. I will start with alder felli Nay Flicky paneski Salazar Acley Rami Decker Grasia Rust Mitchell All right, the nays have it. We're back on the main motion Anyone else wishing to speak Anyone else wishing to speak Seeing none This is a municode vote Municode vote please refer to your municodes And alder parella Alder parella this is a voting opportunity. So yes, thank you And that is a yay Aye Eight eyes to nose All right, that motion is approved Alder felli is their motion to adjourn Yes, I moved to adopt the resolution. Nope. We're motion to adjourn. Sorry. I make motion to adjourn All those in favor of adjourning, please state aye Aye Any objection, we're adjourned at 5.56 Thanks everybody