lollipops that's so cool you should always celebrate your half birthdays are they called lollipops or ice pops oh no actual lollipops not ice pops lollipops sweeties on the end of the stick but do you not spend your time trying to just get the lollipops off the stick no I can't even bother with my birthday it comes with those I couldn't care less you should always celebrate your birthday you should always celebrate you tell us your birthday and we'll make a deal what do you think of because it's like your worlds and all that kind of stuff and there's a bit of a there's going to be a bit of a two in and a throw in but I can't remember who's buying out the James Bond franchise or the it's an acquisition of some other I think it might be Amazon that are taking over the owners of of James Bond the James Bond Eon is it or something like that anyway yeah and they want to create a world okay with split-off characters maybe 006 whatever it might be crossovers and all that kind of stuff but the people that have always always owned the rights and owned 50% of them say no no no we want to keep this once every couple of years big block buster Fnulla do you have a view would you like to see a James Bond world similar to that but without the shields and the capes of Marvel what I don't think so I think what's the beauty of James Bond what keeps people going to it is the purity of it and the kind of history of it I mean an awful lot of people though I know but the nostalgia brings in the books I mean a lot of people go and see a James Bond movie regardless of whether or not they've heard it's good bad or indifferent it's an event it's you know what I mean it's one of those things that you're kind of like a year in advance think about how much hype there was over this one with it being Daniel Craig's last one think of all of the discussions the documentaries you couldn't switch on a television channel there for you know when the launch was on with all of the documentaries and everything that was going on about it and it's just so iconic I think to me if it had started off in some form that had been like a comic book like something that was a bit more serial but it's not I mean they're you know they're solid books I know obviously they've moved from the books you know to a certain extent but wouldn't it be interesting to see sort of like an American based film maybe in the born mold and there's not that big a difference now a 005 character or equivalent in America and then down the line like them joining forces and having it as a no no no I think what you'd end up with I mean you already have that in the American like you have born so there you go that's a similar type of a type of a character and also I think what you'd end up is you'd end up in if you've ever seen the movie the Kingsman you'd end up in the Kingsman and the Kingsman too have you ever seen them yeah yeah it was the first one some time ago yeah and the second one then brings in the Americans into it right and because there's obviously other you know other groups in it and you're just kind of like I enjoyed it you know it's by no means highbrow it's by no means whatever it's just you kind of sit down and you do really enjoy it there's a lot of action and stuff in it but to me it kind of by the second one it like a silliness came into it that you know what I mean even though I know it like it was never supposed to be a comedy as such it was supposed to be a little bit of it I didn't think so I think it was supposed to be a little bit obviously of a parody on these type of things but not in a kind of laugh out loud sort of way but if you watch the second one it just so a James Bond world it's a no from you and we go to the judges in somewhere in letter nil points for me also in a cave in a cave I feel this zoom is when we speak to you it's almost it also functions as a time machine time travel except for your wonderful glasses my take I think a franchise wouldn't work because another spy inside that James Bond world wouldn't work or wouldn't work no wouldn't work because it's just born or but they've always been teased in us double O others haven't they but it's still John it's bond we want to see it's bond we want to see the others are it's it's everything from who they said I completely okay there's a wait six sixty twenty five thousand get my back here on this one or call Carolina no seven four nine one twenty five thousand right we're going to hear much more from Michael and vanilla after we take a short break by the way the lines on our brilliant silver tassie competition are closed we're going to be an announcing winner to that competition after we run the names through the computer after a short while today show was brought to you by the seascape spy at the silver tassie hotel offering indulgent treatments and luxurious gifts to suit all pockets call and collect available on nine one two five six one nine this Christmas nothing stopping us with exclusive Tesco club card deals like Pringle sour cream and onion and salt and vinegar crisps 200 gram both were two euro fifty now one euro fifty each and for the perfect present the Tesco mobile Samsung Galaxy a zero three s was one hundred fifty nine ninety nine now ninety nine ninety nine with the club card shop in store or online Tesco every little helps customer quotas apply subject to availability Samsung offer ends 14th of December season sees apply on this week's business matters I'll be joined by the founder and CEO of John Couture Troy Armour so join me Donald for business matters on Sunday evening half the six o'clock news business matters podcast is also available to download at highly radio dot com business matters in association with letter Kenny it's faculty of business applications are now open for the highly regarded masters in leadership and innovation in the public sector also a masters in governance compliance and data protection in financial services and a certificate in online dispute management visit La it dot IE for more information it's flu season and children are twice as likely as adults to catch the flu which can sometimes cause serious illness that's why all children age two to 17 can get their free nasal spray flu vaccine a safe and effective way to protect them and the rest of your family too so make an appointment with your GP or pharmacist visit hsc dot IE forward slash flu for more information from the HSC open up your weekend with the Irish independent on Saturday with thousands of us testing positive for COVID-19 every day how do we deal with the after effects we bring you an expert guide on how adults and children can boost their health and get their strength back Cajal Denny explores Roy Keane's reinvention as TV's most colorful pundit plus there's 5000 Volta HD rental codes to watch the movie deadly cuts to give away find your weekend with the Irish independent on Saturday up close and independent T's and C's apply most people say that Donny Gall is the coolest place in the planet but up here we know that sometimes it can be the coldest Charles Bonner and son's ballet buffet is the one stop shop for all your heating needs we have a huge range of multi-fuel and wood pellet stoves and ranges spare parts for all major stove and range brands plumbing and bathroom wear all at exceptional prices so visit our showrooms our friendly and experienced team will be ready to help you Charles Bonner and son's ballet buffet and the Stove Store.ie where you can always do a good deal better Christmas is covered at Letter Kenny Shopping Centre Free Parking, Shopping and Sanda Under One Roof Letter Kenny Shopping Centre bringing you the time at The Times 1132 Listener says as any of the entertainment panel seen Mayor of Easttown halfway through the series there's only seven episodes slow first episode but definitely that's intriguing where we all are huge fans of that particularly I think of Kate Winslet who won Best Actor so that's a unanimous yes from all of us isn't? Yeah no 100% yeah I wasn't overly impressed with the sum of the script and towards the end I wasn't but I loved the performance. Yeah we teased that out before and you're right but I also started watching the third season of Succession neither of the two if you've watched Succession it is I would argue one of the best programs made in recent times it's getting a bit samey in terms of how they shoot it in the comment the script and stuff for me but still it's intriguing it's great Succession is excellent I would give that full marks but you haven't watched it it's like when the wire came out everyone said to me oh you gotta watch the wire you gotta watch the wire. Did you ever watch the wire? No but you know the way when somebody keeps saying to you and then eventually you're like yeah it does great but that's precisely what happened with the Marvel films with me you see yeah and they know I'm listening now I was sick and tired of listening about them in five years time who were you for starters then more latterly Lee at home he watched them all in order and he was coming in after everyone going oh I've just watched Spider-Man 23 and then I'll have to watch then after that I'll have to watch you know what I mean Spider-Man will be coming soon because you know I'm going to start coming into your room and standing in front of the telly and telling you what I've watched and see if you like that you know can I tell Falula about Girls 5 Ever I've done a bit of research in the break love research research so I looked on entertainment.ie and joe.ie and apparently it comes in Ireland on the Tuesday the 21st of December almost breaking news almost except it was broken everywhere else first that's for Falula specifically I'm going to look out for it now because that's my Christmas the new season of Yellow Hammer is up and running and an old Falula is a fan have they got the right one Yellow Stone? Yellow Stone is the thing there's a new thing called Yellow Jackets which has just started on Sky but I haven't had a chance to watch it yet give us a call because it must be something similar to what you've discussed before Yellow Hammer doesn't even ring a bell no not with me either there is this Yellow Jackets and I know it's won a few awards and I think there's a second series in America where we're just getting the first series now which I will be on my list for next week I'm dying to see it I've downloaded it very exciting right okay now should we go to you next Falula I think we're doing it to sort of turn around do you want to do an update on Fake Famous? oh no did I tell her? no I forgot to check it out I got a new computer and I updated my list and then when I went to go to it this morning at two minutes to eleven I realised the new updated list did not transfer over to my new computer okay well then you pick one because I think we did well then I think I would no the sorry Landscapers is the new Sky Atlantic blockbuster and it stars Olivia Coleman and David Twillis but I could totally be saying that wrong both fantastic English actors and this is really intriguing I definitely recommend people to watch it I really enjoyed it I would be giving this like an eight or nine it kind of was odd and strange it's one of those things where truth is stranger than fiction this is based around now as it keeps saying it's based on a true story so you'd imagine quite a lot of it is actual factual and not just filled in conversations and stuff but it's based on a couple the Edwards this couple that were living in England left England and moved to France so they're living in France and all of a sudden when they run out of money they ring the police they had buried the wife's parents in their back garden true story is this connected to running out of money yes they had they were kind of up north in that situation they were getting older I'd say they were probably in their late 50s early 60s or whatever by the time they were caught judging by the pictures that I've seen now not that I've checked their ages specifically and this is based on what actually happened and their interviews with the police but it's also done kind of in a dramatic way the wife appears to have been like an early water documentary or dramatization it's dramatization because you have Olivia Coleman and you have David Twells there is little bits of it where occasionally at the start and halfway through it kind of breaks the barrier as in it goes back you can see the directors and you can see the different people in it but it's also it goes into her kind of like I said she seems to be kind of like a Walter Mitty type character this lady as I said according to the thing she had very kind of a difficult and troubled background she's very enjoys like westerns and movies so it kind of shoots over to different scenes in her life but it's played out like as if then in a western and that kind of thing she talks about herself at the heart of it you have this like horrific thing that happened and then you kind of look at the couple and you're like it's actually quite very nice sort of a little love story nearly that's in the middle I have to say I really enjoyed it and you've watched it all it's four episodes and once I started watching it I just couldn't I just couldn't leave it the acting is superb everybody knows Olivia Coleman from The Crown and different things like that and she's getting a lot of big stars she's very good now I say David Twills and I am terrible because I I haven't written down any of the other stuff that he's in but as soon as you see him even hear his voice I have to google him then T-H-E-W-L-I-S and as soon as you see him or even hear his voice you're going to be like oh right 100% and then there's just outstanding in it there's some fantastic other characters with the police and different things like that that are in it there is as I said it kind of breaks the the barrier that you see like the directors you know you see kind of between the scenes and different things like that are the actors to the remaining character? yes wow okay, that sounds fascinating out of ten close to full marks oh my god I definitely would be giving it an eight or nine I really enjoyed it when I started off I was going to tell people they should save it for Christmas but then it got a little bit kind of into the nitty gritty the actual murder and I was like maybe no but if you were just going on kind of the acting and the different things like that and you would definitely say stuff oh my god this is really except obviously it's based in real life and there is a double murder but sure look at that's the way it is with TV programs to cover sensitive matters right okay before we move on I just want to say again thanks to the Silver Tassie Hotel and Spa Seascape Spa for their support this week we're about to give away their relaxation to a tea package it's a beautiful Christmas afternoon tea with Prosecco in it, no separate I don't know in their beautiful festively decorated oak beam foyer at the Silver Tassie Hotel you can have a de-stress back in scalp massage or a facial experience the question was according to a popular Christmas song what is roasting on an open fire was it A Turkey or B Chestnuts do you want to guess the answer Michael? I would say Chestnuts you're 100% right it was according to the famous song hey hi answer is B Chestnuts and the winner is Grania McKeown in Cantadonegall Grania congratulations it's muted but it's there nonetheless okay well done to you Grania and well done to everybody and again thanks to our friends at the Silver Tassie so landscapers from Finula on Sky Atlantic 9 out of 10 the new sex in the city called And Just Like That 2 episodes in so far 6 out of 10 girls 5 ever is on Peacock or coming to Peacock as we've heard from Michael Leady and it's a comedy half hour comedy over 7 or 8 episodes did you say? 8 and incidentally he gives it an 8 out of 10 and we want to talk now about I don't you do Spider-Man No Way Home in the cinema yeah that's the big film have you seen it yet? it's next Wednesday exciting yes the characters I have to say it's the best incarnation of Spider-Man I really like the character he's a really good guy yeah he's really good at the part this is the big film it sold out really quickly around the world we got our tickets a group of us my Dungeons & Dragons group we got a group of tickets both if you did that was so mean I was just saying I'd love to meet them what? they are real people Dungeons & Dragons exist I've explained this to you Greg I've also said this to my doctors these people my friends are real people let it go tell us about the film so this is a film that people are looking forward to for one big reason the big mystery the big question mark over this movie is will because it's a multi universe will we see the previous two Spider-Man will we see the Spider-Man from the when Toby McGuire was doing those three movies and will we see the Andrew Garfield movie it can work yeah because we know for a fact that we're seeing one of the main villains from the first run of movies that's Doctor Octopus that actor is returning to play that character and we know that we're seeing a villain from the Garfield movies that actor and that character are returning they've confirmed that they've promoted that but to date they have not confirmed that when you talk about different universes I thought that meant space and earth and stuff are you on about different alternative universes so for the words the multi-verse is more of a timeline it's more of an idea that there's lots of different timelines and we're all just simply separated by which was teased out in that one with Loki no before that there's a really good cartoon you need to watch Spider-Man the multi-verse I really enjoyed that movie Spider-Man the multi-verse was awesome the Doctor Strange film did a bit of that multi-verse stuff didn't it he's in this as well yeah he's in the trailer for this and they've dealt with it in an animated series which is canon there's a half hour nine half hour episodes called what if that's just come out there three four months ago and it deals with the multi-verse so for instance for the first episode it was what if it wasn't Steve Rogers that was Captain America but it was Agent Carter and she became the super soldier in that episode it was a very very very good episode and the series continued the reason it can work is that in another universe it would have been a slightly different Peter Parker in another universe and if you saw the animated movie that Flynn had just referred to you would have seen that in one universe there's a pig who is Spider-Man he's actually called no joke he's called Spider-Ham and that's a great character and he's a real Marvel guy and I love those comics they're hilarious so if you know then I thought they were rebooting these characters right that's what was done at the time but retroactively Kevin Feige and the team are making it so that you can have it sort of in canon and say that even though it was a reboot you're absolutely correct and even though it was a reboot we can now say that oh well that actually is another universe and it's part of so you can cross over at least for this one Spider-Man film we know that we'll definitely see Dr Octopus and are you wetting yourself with excitement at the idea of multiple Spider-Men like? if that happens on screen while I'm in the cinema I will not be the only one Greg I will just lose my hat let's put it that way in polite okay well don't wear your highland hats it seems to be a direction that Marvel are going now that the new what's their Marvel 5.6 that they're calling it now when they move into the movies again is going to be about this multiverse which will mean that nobody ever because yes because you know like because you can have a famous billionaire character who reappears in the next film because he's crossed over from another universe into the one that's currently set or you could end up with like two two hulks you could have two anybody two tours the main thing when you think about what it does to the actual possibilities of the movies it's opening the door for as well as when this Spider-Man has all died down in a couple of years we'll see the X-Men again maybe with some of the same actors again like Halle Berry has said sorry X-Men is part of the X-Men are part of Marvel yes they're Marvel Comics but their timeline is not connected to the Avengers whatsoever but they recognize each other exist only in Deadpool only in Deadpool only in Deadpool he does occasionally mention both but only in Deadpool only the ones they can afford that's it you never obscure ones they went to be crazy with with I can't believe you're just you're there saying you're there saying Spider-Ham is excellent right I know but you're saying it's fine and that's perfectly acceptable and then you sort of say that they went a bit crazy with well in the X-Men they did this going back from the future was Spider-Ham in it would that have made you I would have at least been like Spider-Ham very funny he was like one of those it was definitely like a Disney character that you'd see in that what's that basketball movie where the cartoons play basketball he was like something out of one of those then this jump did the Simpsons borrow Spider-Pig then from Spider-Ham well Spider-Pig is older than Spider-Ham is it Spider-Pig Spider-Ham goes back to the 80s he's in 80s Spider-Ham well they must have nicked it then he's back to the 80s originally he was a backup no sorry originally he was his own series and then he became a backup character I've read them and does Spider-Ham does he emit web webs? yeah he's Spider-Man in a different universe and all the characters he wouldn't be serious about that he's just sarcastic yeah so he's in a pig and like his girlfriend is Mary Jane Water Buffalo right okay I'm going to have to take a break because I have a suspicion that my mind is fried yeah I suspect that right okay a couple of comments before we do we'll have been re-watching Watchmen the series Greg surprisingly relevant for the times we live in pre-Black Lives Matter pre-pandemic amazing cinematography sand and set design came out in 2019 I think it's makers were spot on as to where we are now in society pitting people against each other Starskin Hotch was a TV show and the movie then I sort of liked it could have been better yeah I think a lot of time passed between the two didn't they if we're on about the war but that's a very good suggestion actually I think that probably is probably is a reasonable example though it wasn't broadly well received Starskin Hotch the new series Sex and the City is out would this be something yourself or Finula would have watched back in the day me no because I put that in with it Ali McBeal and there's a few other shows I just didn't feel I was watching stuff like have I got news for you and the word and you know that's that was I yeah in the 90s I mean that's what it was I was like all cool and Euro trash what happened oh well my hair fell out that was probably the start of it alright we'll be back with on the show I know I'm too upset after this break a 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successful finance provided by way of higher purchase agreement from Volkswagen financial services Ireland in subject to lending criteria visit scota.ie for further information your local scota dealer is DMG motor Clairo Donegal Town telephone 07 9721 396 give the gift that's on everyone's wish list this Christmas the seascape spa at the Silver Tassie Hotel offering gift vouchers, gift sets stocking pullers and expert gift in advice 9126 251 vouchers also available online at silvertassiehotel.com okay I do have another break to squeeze in before the end of the program so that's kind of really it for a moss Greg asked the experts if I can get that contact with any of them if you're an expert ring in dear oh dear oh dear is the Pluto TV app free to view I see the app is on my fire stick Pluto TV sounds free to view thanks for the tip on Star Trek show as I can see wasn't out of this world so to speak don't miss out on the 140 PG Christmas TV guide tomorrow as they are in the Sunday papers as the RT guide usually runs out on New Year's Eve and you only really get knitting patterns okay for some thanks from Kevin in a chilly done low the people we used to look forward to that when we were kids there's always someone in the family circles everything we had our person that did it we used to love getting it and then everybody would get a go and then first dibs that was the joy of being the eldest first dibs on it I love it and then you could circle the ones and make all the rest of them watch what you want to watch enjoy Spider-Man No Way Home Michael and tell us next week what it was like if you don't mind I will and I'm seeing here yeah Pluto is 100% free and legal it's just after Google here so yeah it is streaming in this country is a grey area whether it's illegal or not downloading is illegal streaming not so much listen thanks so much brilliant guys have a good weekend bye bye thank you absolutely don't forget David is on the late late tonight there's a tribute to Daniel I think Daniel is I don't want to say he's 60 if he's not but I think he is he's 60 at the weekend and they're having it well he's probably like me you gotta hit the hit the zeros party hard yeah exactly so yeah so David's gonna be on on the tribute on the late late well done David all right well done see you next week back after these messages with the weather actually we seem to be having a technical issue there we'll take this break now once I fix the computer whilst I'm waffling here you are today's show was brought to you by the Seascape Spa at the Silver Tassie Hotel offering indulgent treatments and luxurious gifts to suit all pockets call and collect available on 911-25619 hi Mary Ford here if you are thinking of upgrading your car borrow from Letterkennig Credit Union or loans have a competitive rate of interest free life insurance no hidden extras or deposit and a speedy decision remember you own the car there is no mileage constraints with a loan from Letterkennig 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operating operators network charges may apply the winner will be announced on the jive time show on the 22nd of December right that's where we have to leave it we're back with you on Monday have a fantastic weekend jump residents around the North West after we cross over now for the very latest news at 12 noon from Catherine Gaffney good afternoon Catherine good afternoon Greg new guidance


We will talk. Ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention, please? We are about to start the first session of the Debian Outreach Track. And I will be the talkmeister, as I understand. My name is Frank Brom. And Andy Orem will be our first speaker. Andy has been working with O'Reilly for a long time, probably longer than he himself can remember. And he just told me that he published the first book here in the United States on Linux. So that's a good one. And Andy's main interest is in the relationship between open source and what it and how it affects governments. And he thinks that there's a relationship between open source on the one hand and open governments. So I would like to have a applause for Andy. And let's enjoy his talk. Thank you. Hey, state of Massachusetts. Here is the statehouse. This was the scene for the most ambitious experiment in the United States to implement open source software in government. Actually, it wasn't really at the statehouse. Most of the work was done in this rather unassuming building about a block away. And here I got to talk to some people who were doing this. And some of the things that I heard from a consultant, from some staff people, from Eric Chris and Peter Quinn, some of this will get into the talk. Now let me start by asking, how many people have heard about the experiment in the mid 2000s to introduce openoffice.org into the Massachusetts state government? That's very good. I'm glad that you heard about it. It was really big news at the time. It's OK if you've gotten about it. And in a way, it's sort of an old fashioned debate. And we'll be looking at how some of the things have changed since then. But I will be talking about this. I will be also talking about some other experiments, some of which were more successful. And there are microphones here. So I'm going to go through this fairly quickly. I want to run my slides. But I do hope people feel comfortable raising their hands. And we have microphones and you can interrupt. And I also hear that we have some people using IRC who might send in questions from outside. And I really want to focus on this issue and stay for the whole thing and discuss it because it's important. Government is big. Government controls a lot of things around us. And the way that you sought was important. The US federal government spent over $13 billion in 2009 on software. That's only half as much as they spent on guided missiles. But it's still a big amount. When I go to USAspending.gov, the website, to look at it. So I want to ask them, how did you classify the software that runs guided missiles? But anyway, it's a simple figure, a crude one. But it shows that software is a big part of government. And we should be caring about what they're running. Furthermore, there are network effects. Government does affect a lot of other people.  And the proprietary vendors know this. And that's why the proprietary vendors would do almost anything they can to keep their software in government. And as advocates for free software, open source, we have to be aware that we can derive a lot of benefit from these network effects. Let me ask, how many people remember the news announcements when WhiteHouse.gov, the White House site, adopted Drupal as their content management? Yeah, that's great. I'd say one third to one half of the audience heard this. Now, open source or free software has been in the government for years. For instance, when I was working on our first Linux book from 1994, I heard from a Marine who was using some version of Linux and something I didn't ask him what he was using it for. And I've met people who have been programming the government for a long time doing open source software. And the Department of Defense is all over it. So I don't know why the press made a big deal about this announcement that WhiteHouse.gov was using Drupal. But somehow, this is the big moment. Wow, now the federal government's adopted free software. We have to recognize that this is not a big moment for us really. It does not mean that lots of doors are opened up. But we've been hearing a lot of things from people in government like Vivek Kundra, who is the Chief Information Officer, Chopra, the Chief Technical Officer, and other people scattered through various agencies. So this may be a good time for open source. So this is the topics of the talk. I will talk about some of the arguments for adopting free software or open source in government. I think a lot of people have heard of those already, but it's worth going over them quickly. And then some of the more passionate arguments. Viola was talking before about passion in the Devian community. And we need passion in government, too, to make free software or open source work. I'll talk a bit about something new that's happened in the past year or two, challenges, which they often produce free open source software. I mentioned Massachusetts at the beginning. I'll be talking about that. And then a little bit about Munich at the end. I don't have a real direct contact with the Munich thing. And I want to mention why I'm going to use open source. I used open source, I think, in the title. When a lot of people here are very passionate about using the term free software, free isn't freedom. But I was told, I wrote a whole paper about free software. And one of my reviewers said, you don't use that term. Because in the government, when they think of free software, it's the wares. It's the stuff that you download where you probably don't even get the source. It's just stuff that you find on a website somewhere, and you can't really trust it. That's what they think of when they think of free software. So I would like everybody to repeat after me. Open source. Open source. Good. Get used to that. And I'm going to try to be using it through the talk, too. Because that's what they want to hear. And that's when you visit the websites. When you talk to people in government, that's the term they're using all over the place. You need to have good arguments, very strong, rational, objective arguments. Because there's always a nurse. Government is not really a fast-moving operation. And change costs a lot of money. For instance, in Munich, they had a five-year window. They wanted to see whether they could save money by using open source software in a five-year window. And it takes a lot of staff time. Furthermore, once you get into this and become an advocate for open source, the proprietary vendors will recycle every obsolete, discredited argument about security, about the viability of the support you get. You're going to hear this over and over. And you're going to have to be able to fight it very well. And government managers do not really get promoted by taking risks, as many people in the Silicon Valley do. So we'll look at some of these rational arguments. And I think many of you know them already. You can certainly go on the web and find lots of documents about them. But I want to do it very quickly, because I think we have to get through these things. Access, if you put out a request for proposals, if you put out some document that you want people to read, you're really excluding people if it requires a certain format or a certain tool to use. So there's a lot of talk about freedom of information and the Freedom of Information Act, open formats and open source software are really key to that. And Frank mentioned when he introduced me that government transparency is of interest to me. And certainly when you want a lot of people to interact with you, you want to exchange data in a way that they can understand. Vendor independence, the governments are not supposed to depend entirely on one vendor. Often if they adopt a proprietary product, that kind of locks them in in the future. It's not really in tune with what the government is supposed to be doing. It's on tune the regulations. Now we all have things in formats on tape, on disks that we can't access anymore. Open source software doesn't really help with the hardware problem, but it can help with the format problem. And when you're trying to get a land deed, for instance, the institution I was in, who we had boundary dispute and we had to go back to the government and try to get the old deeds and figure out what was done 50 years ago, you certainly want to have things in a format that you can get at any time. Whereas right now, vendors go out of business or they simply arbitrarily change the format. The Illustrated Special Government needs, I'll mention, the YouTube Controversy, which some of you may have heard of. When the Obama administration came in, there were very few elements into media and high tech stuff, and they started embedding YouTube videos in their websites. Now it seems that when you embed a video in the website, before someone looks at the video, YouTube downloads a cookie. There was a rule, an institute maybe 10 years ago, that government websites cannot download cookies to you because that was seen as a privacy violation, which is a little exaggerated, and that rule has been changed. But at the time, they were stuck. They wanted to use YouTube, but this was downloading a cookie, and that was not allowed. Does anybody remember how this was resolved? It was a special deal between the federal government and YouTube. When federal sites put a YouTube video on there, YouTube will not download a cookie. This is not true for the rest of us. If we want to put YouTube videos on our sites, we've got to get the cookie. The federal government does not have to get the cookie. However, if someone visits the government website and clicks on the video to view it, then they get the cookie. So this is the kind of silly compromise it's made in order to deal with special government requirements. But it's a good reason to adopt open source, so you don't have to deal with these things in the first place. Security, of course, think of the Department of Defense and the NSA, and all these institutions that depend a lot on security. Open source software is not necessarily more secure than proprietary software. There's a religious war around this, but we certainly know that we can have everybody in the world who's a security expert looking at the open source software. So those are the basic arguments. There are many variations, and you could probably find arguments, but those are the basic arguments for telling people that they should adopt open source. I didn't mention cost in there. And one reason is that it takes a lot of effort to migrate, and we'll look at some of those problems later. Another problem is that, as I mentioned, the proprietary vendors love to have their software being used by government, and they will lower their costs. So there have been situations where the small governments have said that they will adopt open source software as a kind of bargaining chip. And then the proprietary vendor comes in and says, oh, we'll lower our costs. And then they go along with that. And I guess that means that everybody else who has a proprietary software has to pay more. But it's their bargain. But the format is really almost more important than the software. A lot of you may be working in institutions where you don't use Office, Microsoft Office, and you don't use openoffice.org, or KOS, or any other things. You may be using Google Docs or some other thing like that. And the government has to do that, too. I think the government's big enough to provide its own service. They shouldn't be storing their key documents in Google Docs. But anyway, software as a service is growing. There's a big bait in the free software movement about that. But it makes it even more important that you know what your format is. So you can use a competing service. The services need to operate so that you can get your data out in case the service goes bad and so forth. The format is a problem that most people don't think about it. Most people don't think about what is really underneath MP3WMA, all those things that they use. And a little of the free software movement when developed, totally open formats. Most people are still using the ones that have some kind of patent, some kind of licensing associated with them. So the government doesn't realize what they're doing a lot of the time. They say, let's put up a video on YouTube. And that means that you cannot download it on certain computers legally. There are certain things that are outlawed because they don't pay the license fee and so forth. The copyright office, you may have heard of this about a week ago. The copyright office issued a new ruling and it said that the software that is used to interpret proprietary formats, this software is no longer illegal. Well, they didn't exactly say that. They said that special people like scholars and librarians have a good legal reason to use these tools that can decrypt DVDs and stuff like that. So that effectively makes it legal because I think you could say, well, I'm a scholar. But it still doesn't really cover something like watching the YouTube video. So the government is doing these things. They are actually contributing to a culture of proprietary in formats. It's sort of like when someone gets up in the morning, they don't say, I'm going to make my kid obese today. They just say, my kid doesn't like milk so I want to put a little bit of chocolate syrup in the milk. And this is why I say that the closed formats are the high fructose corn syrup of the computer world. We don't really know what we're doing when we use them. Now, besides the rational arguments, you need to develop a sense of fashion, a sense of commitment in the government agency. And I've seen this in all the examples that I've seen, and I'll talk a bit about some of the examples. Because the benefits of change are far off and uncertain. There will be all kinds of technical problems that you'd inspect. For instance, in the Munich case that I'll discuss at the end, I read on one website about they converted all their clients in one site to GNU Linux. I think the Debbie and GNU Linux, in fact. And then they found that the clients couldn't communicate with each other or communicate with a central server. Because a central server was running an unnamed proprietary system. It did not implement DHCP properly. DHCP is the way everybody communicates to each other on their local network by assigning IP addresses. So they couldn't do this. So I imagine what they had to do was to speed up the deployment of GNU Linux on the central server. So this is the kind of problem you wouldn't anticipate. You probably can't anticipate until it happens. And you need to have some conviction. You need to have a real passion for what you're doing to get you through. And finally, you need passionate arguments because people don't respond. I mean, people like to say they're a rational objective, but who really is? Now, it's useful to have somebody talk who backs what you're doing, someone who's charismatic, someone who people listen to. And it's useful to get an endorsement from this. So some of the things that have happened that have helped from the top down via Libra Foundation. This was in 2001. It was one of the early bills in Latin America that said that we want to use free software. Brazil formed this technical committee on the implementation of software in 2003. And then Hugo Chavez in Venezuela announced, I don't know how far some of these things are going. I know in the Brazilian case, they did not actually pass a law. There were attempts in Brazil to pass a law, which didn't pass. Some of the states passed laws. But even though they didn't have as much of a formal commitment at the top, they have achieved a lot more than some of the other Latin American countries. And this probably has to do with the degree of technical education in Brazil, the degree of development of the economy as a whole, lots of factors. Certainly, they have the free software conference. They are fissile. And they have companies, including some of my authors, work that teach how to use GNU Linux. So there's a lot of people working very hard to create the infrastructure. Whereas, for instance, in Peru, I've read that they wanted to have a lot more free software. And they had some trouble getting the, I should say, open source software into the government because they don't have enough trained people to do it. You need a lot of structure to do this right. Peru is interesting because it shows a trajectory. It shows how often open source makes progress. First, there was a practical problem, taking this from an interesting article that you can get online too. There was a practical problem. Someone was a consultant going to various cities and states in Peru. And he discovered that they were inconsistent in their application of the tax code. They were actually being unfair to people. And part of the problem was they had inconsistent software. And the solution is to give them open source software. We may have some of the same things going on in the United States around health care. Because there are dozens of vendors with extremely expensive systems that don't work together. The government is now saying, finally, you need meaning and use, which means you have to be able to take the data out and use it in ways that improve the quality of care. So a lot of open source advocates are hoping this will be an impetus to adopt open source software because it's consistent because of interoperability and also because of lower cost. So this consultant was from the open source software. And he got a senator named Villanueva, interested in this, introduced a bill that was immediately attacked by Microsoft and immediately attacked by the US ambassador. So then a movement grew up around it. Not just in Peru, but all around Latin America and even internationally. And there were people who were committed to the idea of freedom. And they wanted to have open access to government. They wanted to have more involvement of the public. These were the sort of things that drove their commitment to open source software. So the bill was passed. And I believe I may have talked about this already. OK, so that was an example of how the practical need and the ideological need combined to produce a good result of the bill that was passed promoting open source software and some action in that area. So it's going to have people at the top giving some support for it. They have Vivek Kundra and Anish Chopra in Washington talking about open source software. It means that you can at least get the discussion started. People can't save you.  And it means this is particularly important, as we see in the Massachusetts case later. When you have people at the top supporting you, they probably will not come in and defund you or put barriers in your way or just snipe at you. But it's not enough to have somebody at the top. Because in that situation, like the one I suggested in Munich where the server was not allowing the clients to communicate, this has to be overcome at the grassroots. It has to be overcome by managers right in the department that are implementing the software. So let's look at these managers. They have to have a sophisticated sense of the software. They should be previously committed to understand at least open source. And they can't just have good intentions. We'll see some of the ways that it helped in the Massachusetts and Munich cases for people to really understand in a deep way the open source or free software. They have to understand, for instance, that there is a developer community out there. You've probably all heard the phrase that people like to use about proprietary software. At least it's one throat to choke. I feel like I've been choked right now. There's not a terrible way to deal with a vendor. Isn't a horrible image to use? So it is good to have support from vendors. But it's also good to be able to interact with the developers, especially such a capable community as the Debian developers. For instance, this conference is entirely run by volunteers, including the audio and visual people. I'm very impressed with that. The audio and visual even is done by volunteers here. You have to take responsibility for your own installation upgrades. You don't get a visit from the vendor. It's very helpful to do bug fixes, to do your own work and collaborate with the community, and in general, to understand the development cycle and why certain things might be postponed and so forth. These are the things that a manager knows if he's already sophisticated about open source. I want to stop for a moment to suggest that you go visit a web page, opensourceformerica.org awards. This was started by a bunch of companies just a little over a year ago. O'Reilly, my employer, was one of the companies. One of the big backers is Red Hat. Sun was also a big backer, but Oracle has not pushed it in the same way. Anyway, there's an interesting set of awards that you can look at here for individuals and for institutions. Unfortunately, they are focusing just on the federal government. They won't accept, I don't think they'll accept an award for somebody in New York or somebody in the Netherlands, but I suggest that you check it out. We'll take out the organization. I also want to talk about a new movement. As I said, in the past year or two, there's a new movement in governments that want to get beyond the heaviness of the procurement system and try to get some quick applications, sometimes open source. What they do is a down to contest, sometimes with money, as a prize and sometimes just with publicity. And they put up some data. This is very important to actually give people data to work with. You may have heard the announcement maybe six weeks ago that the Department of Health and Human Services put up a lot of data about all kinds of things epidemiological and so forth about the United States. And they want people to download this and do interesting comparisons, maybe the cost of health care in different areas, maybe the incidence of different diseases, diabetes in different areas. And if you really want to see interesting health care data sets, go to Portuguese and go to the website for the Brazilian Ministry of Health. It's amazing what they have online. All kinds of data about reimbursements of hospitals, about births, about deaths, about all kinds of things. So the data is very important because that gives people something to work with. And then submissions can be uploaded where they can be reviewed. Sometimes people do this in open source and sometimes they don't. I'll talk about Portland a bit, which did insist on open source. And the public can also get involved. The public can usually go on these sites and suggest an application that they would like to have, like municipal data, say municipal transit data in Boston, the bus lines and the subway lines are trying to put their data online. And people can write submissions. So this is sort of the basis of the challenge approach. Apps for democracy may have been the first one. Vivek Kundra, before he entered the federal government, did this in Washington. They did it for two years. And then they kind of got a lot of interest. They didn't find the funds to do another one. We'll look at this problem later. And then just did one and just announced the awards for that. And this one is all, you know, you have to make it open source when you submit an application. I want to mention a bit about the Department of Defense. I was talking about missiles before. And some people have a lot of conflicts over what the Department of Defense does. But I want to say that they are not a conservative institution as they often are portrayed. I think they are very dynamic institutions. They know that they have to change a lot because the nature of war is changing. They have something they put up with Collabnet, which is a major player in the open source field. It's called Ford's Dot Mill. And it is actually not really open source, but they invite companies in there. Some of the code could be shared as a platform to produce other things. And other code is not shared. It's closed source. But it's an important example of this kind of sharing, this kind of collaboration to produce new software. And it's not just to save money. I'm saying over and over again in this talk that you can't depend on cost savings as a reason to open source. You have to have other reasons. In the case of Department of Defense, they know that field conditions are changing all the time. What was true yesterday is not true today. The people who are down there in the trenches literally have to be able to adopt the software to new needs. And that's where they are doing this. So what challenges are trying to do is to change the procurement model. The usual procurement model is very old fashioned, a bunch of managers get in the room. What does your staff do? What does your staff do? What do we need? Then they submit their requirements to a vendor. They spend a long time choosing a vendor, giving the requirements to the vendor. Vendor takes a bunch of soda to produce it. So you recognize here something called the waterfall model. The waterfall model is still useful. I would say for something like a guided missile might be the right thing. But as you know, it's credited for most things that interact with people, and most things that ordinary people are working in their day-to-day work. So the ways this can be evaded perhaps to keep the awards small, not to have awards at all. And it permits a much more agile development process. The challenge approach requires, first of all, the data, as I mentioned before. The government should be willing to use data. It has to make a big publicity push. You have to know your programmers. It's not enough to do publicity. You have to really know who the key people are in your area, as Portland did. They were pretty hip. They knew a lot of people, both in open source and non-open source areas. And you don't always have to have a monetary prize, but it can be useful. The challenge approach is also limited. One thing, once you get the application, it may be hard to keep it maintained. If the public is using it, if they want the data and want the app, it may be enough to push the government to do it. But as I was told in Portland, politicians love to do things and get a lot of publicity from. And they say, look how cool we are. We've got this challenge. We're doing a new thing. But then the incremental work of slowly releasing more data, updating the application. They can't get big headlines for that. And so it's hard to get them to do it. Community pressure is needed. We have to ask for more data. We have to insist that the data is updated when it's released. A non-profit may be a good way to do this. There are certain ways to keep the non-profits honest. You make sure that they have open meetings. You make sure their documents are open, have conflict of interest rules, and so forth. There is no central search facility. This is something I hope gets fixed. So New York is doing it. Yes, New York even has trying to open some of their data. This may be hard to believe in a city where the transitory could just stop running a train some morning and not even tell anybody. So I had to walk two miles to get here today. But New York is part of it. Portland, Chicago, there's a lot of cities doing it. But they're all doing it individually. And it would be nice to have a nice source forage-like or GitHub-like place where they could put their stuff and everybody could find it. But the office does not yet handle the big ticket items. That's as the openoffice.org issue that I'm going to discuss. It doesn't handle things where the government is spending millions and millions of dollars on something. So we still have to push for open source in other ways. And that's what I'm going to get to in Massachusetts. Talk a little bit about the experience there. We did not have a charismatic leader, an ideologically driven leader in Massachusetts when this open source effort started. Our leader at the time was Governor Romney, who remember is conservative, a little bit wonkish. But he did do something really useful, his Secretary of Administration and Finance. And there is a media page for Eric Chris. He worked with Peter J. Quinn, who I also talk to, functioned more or less as CIO and actually got that position eventually. And they were the people who were really driving this. Eric Chris had worked in the high tech industry in Massachusetts, so he was acquainted with open source software, acquainted with a lot of issues, as you will see about software. And he was going to be a risk taker. Now the project started. As I mentioned in Peru, there was a particular practical problem that kicked off this open source movement. Now a slightly different thing happened in Massachusetts. The legislature realized that there was no plan for how to acquire software, no kind of road map. And they asked for one. They probably had no idea and would have been horrified if they realized that where this was going. But they asked for a plan. And open source came as a solution. There was one particular interest. They certainly knew about open source, Chris and Quinn. But there was one interesting thing that happened here. Microsoft released a new version of Office 2000 that had an XML format. And there was a patent on part of this. Now think about what it takes for someone, say, an administration finance to look at this. Most people in administration finance do not really look at the software at all. They don't really look at the format underlying the software. Most of them would have no idea, at least at this stage in 2003, what an XML format is. And for Quinn and Chris to actually check and see that there was a patent on it, so that we had some really pretty extraordinary people in our ship in Massachusetts. So they found this patent.  Probably Microsoft wouldn't do this. But Microsoft could say, hey, anybody who goes into the town hall for a birth certificate or wants to get a building permit, you've got to pay us a license fee, because you're using the Microsoft Office format. So they were worried about this. And they asked Microsoft to give up their rights to the patent. Microsoft wouldn't. And so they decided on a regulation saying that open source would be preferred in government, which is similar to what was done in Peru. Now the Mass Software Council visited them right away, a lot of pressure. So they backed off a little bit. They just said they would open source in a fair manner. But this was enough to get the migration going. And the migration was handled in a very disciplined way. They started out very well. They looked at all the departments just what the department needs were. Munich did this too, perhaps even more thoroughly. So some departments really needed, for instance, Microsoft Excel. OpenOffice.org's spreadsheet was not quite as good as Excel in the areas at that time. And Excel used Macros. Some of these people depended on Macros, which OpenOffice.org did not support. But most people in the government were just using Microsoft Office to read documents or to make very simple memos. And they could easily move over to ODF and OpenOffice.org. And they started to train people. They hired consultants and so forth. Peter Quinn had a study showing that they would save money by using open source software. The Massachusetts Legislature was not happy at all about where things were going. And they actually demanded that an auditor be brought in, which is pretty unusual. But the auditor backed up Quinn. He said, yes, it will save money. There was an interesting setback, which is a useful lesson here. Microsoft, we always openOffice.org, did not have accessibility just for vision impaired. Microsoft is not a great player in this area either. Up to the 90s, they released windows. They had nothing for blind or vision impaired people. But the community got together and insisted they do something. And when they put in features for blind and limited vision people, they did it in such a way that it was proprietary. It was locked into Microsoft stuff. So even if you're running other software on windows, you couldn't use the same features. Still, they had the features openOffice.org did not. And a coalition of the vision impaired descended on the state office to say you can't use openOffice.org because it doesn't have these features. What is wrong with this reasoning? Don't give someone the microphone. What is wrong with the reasoning of the vision impaired people who said this? Yes, they can add features. This is what people didn't understand. They were thinking still in the mindset of proprietary software where somebody gives you the point, you take it or leave it. And openOffice.org, of course, they could have worked. The community could have worked with them. And eventually, it took time, but openOffice.org did add these features. But this is still a good lesson to learn. When you start something, a migration, you have to think of all the strengths and weaknesses of your software. This little thing, and Quinn admitted he had made a mistake. He should have thought of this in advance. And we also need to educate the public more about the potential of open-source software to evolve, to meet new needs. So this is a small setback. It didn't really hurt things. The big setback came, and we really, really don't know. The state legislature decided to slash a bunch of funding. And it could have just been one of the spats that they always have with the governor. The governor and the legislature in Massachusetts are always feuding, whether the governor is Democrat or Republican, it doesn't really matter. Or there might have been something else behind it. We don't really know, but they defunded it. And then there's another setback. Chris and Quinn departed for various reasons. The IT department said that Microsoft's XML would also be okay as an open format. I'll talk a little bit about that. I'm right disappointed in this. I think it would be fine to say, look, we've tried to do a migration. We don't have the money. We'll have to stick with Microsoft Office. We'll look at openoffice.org and ODF in the future. But they didn't say they said that they could use XML which was rather a setback in terms of publicity. You could enter this into your Bing engine and you can find out all the documents you would ever want to read and more about this. So I won't say much about this. Just say that OOXML was created in direct recognition that state governments and others wanted an XML format. And ODF had an XML format, had an open format so Microsoft realized they had to have one too. And of course it's not really open even though it's over 6,000 pages long. It has all kinds of problems that are not fully specified which you can find by going online. The standardization process was not only a travesty and there was a lot of pressure from both sides. Both the pro-Microsoft and the anti-Microsoft forces were doing a lot of political stuff here. But it really challenged where the sort of consensus-based open standards approach was going to work when you have highly political pressure from large companies. But OOXML was really in advance. Before OOXML we had RDF. We had other formats that were very hard to work with. Now there are a lot of new programs that can work with Microsoft formats and OOXML. So all the Microsoft programmers can thank the ODF and Office.org community for what they've done to help them to get OOXML. So I have said enough about Massachusetts. You can see the strengths, you can see the weaknesses. I wanted to end on a slightly more positive note. So I'm going to talk just a little bit about the Munich experience which I had to read about. I couldn't actually interview people in there. They wanted to go to both CanoeLinux and OpenOffice.org. They also had a practical stimulus, the end of life for Windows NT 2004. And so they presented the city council with two possibilities. They did a very serious requirements analysis. And they said on the one hand we can upgrade to Microsoft, on the other hand we can migrate to Duby and CanoeLinux and OpenOffice.org. Now it takes such a lot of work to migrate that they could not show that within five years they would recoup their costs. Actually it would have been cheaper to upgrade to Microsoft Office and pay those licenses. And even so, the city council decided to move to CanoeLinux and OpenOffice.org. Here is one page of the requirements analysis. You can see some interesting things if you can read the small type. I have to go back here, let's see, I think this will do it. For instance, impact on system stability, impact on the appeal of working conditions. This is just one of many, many things they were considering. They went way beyond the question of cost and even the question of technology. For instance, you can challenge everything. For instance, do you need software to create PDFs? Maybe not. If a lot of documents are going to be used only online and you never print them, maybe you don't need this software. So the managers to really delve deep and they looked at all the strategic as well as the cost issues. The cost said, upgrade to Windows. You won't recoup your cost of migrating to CanoeLinux within five years, but they decided to migrate anyway. And the city council gave its backing, which is really important because they would not pull a trick like the Massachusetts legislature did. They said, go ahead. And the people doing the migration could really depend on that. Implementation briefly had a five year cycle. That's over now. I think it took a little bit longer than they expected years for planning. 15,000 workstations run opusoffice.org. That's workstations. And 2,500 are running CanoeLinux. The WN version, pretty sure. ODF is the standard for exchange. So that's a pretty good success story. Something, I did an article related to this talk. You can get this article in the Journal of Information Technology and Politics. And they said they would also release it in their Creative Commons license online. It hasn't been done yet. But I wanted to summarize about the right way to move to open source software. Summarizing the talk, we have to emphasize strategic goals, not just one or two short term things or costs. We have to make sure the people who can fund or do the project are on board. You have to have managers with a deep insight who can understand things like whether it supports the vision impaired, whether it has the protocols necessary to communicate with our systems. And you have to have passion to carry you through. So I think Munich showed all these things. Munich showed a way that we can move to open source. If we can learn from this lesson and from other lessons, both positive and negative, we can enjoy the benefits that they have in Munich. And since there were really no questions at the time, I hope you have some questions now, and you can also talk to me later. Maybe someone can get the microphone. Thank you. I don't see the microphone. I don't see the shout now. And I will repeat the question. Got a microphone on high. I thank you for the talk. First of all, recently, going back to the winter, I was up in Albany for the Open Government Conference in Albany, New York. And I went there for the whole day, and their definition of open government was we put something on the web, it's open. My concern that I brought up as I had a question and answer period was, well, one, if I have a Linux operating system on my home computer, and I want to get to the data that you've now made up it, and their response, like Marie Antoinette was, go out and get a Windows system or Macintosh. So I think there's a definite need for an ADA-like legislation to guarantee rights of people who use alternative operating systems when it comes to accessing government data. Also, applying for a government job requires that you have a PDF application that allows form filling in and stuff like that. And I think we need to, I don't know if you want to expand on this, but how can we guarantee rights of people who, you know, the other side of the coin of accessing the government, not necessarily the government using open source, but us using open source and getting to everything else in an equal fashion. Yeah, I like your comment. That was a great story. And I certainly, if you had a law or a regulation, that would be, that would be useful. It would be a nice top-down approach. There are other things we might do. You've now announced this problem. We can shame them in Albany. We can point to what they try to do in Massachusetts and what some people in the federal government are trying to do. We've got to move in that direction when we're in there. I suppose, at some point, there should be some high-level regulation or even a law so that people have access. And this is also, we have to remind them, I sort of mentioned at the talk, we have to remind them that this is not just guaranteeing people like you, the WN expert access. This is also guaranteeing yourself access. The government wants to get access to these documents 50 years from now. That's what we've thought of it. Frequently, you get that immediate reaction because you're talking to people who feel like you're asking them to support your operating system and they're terrified of it. They have no idea what it looks like, how it works. And you get that answer a lot. I think from any kind of bureaucracy where you've got front-level help desk line staff, they have a set of stock answers for people who have Windows and Mac systems. And so they feel like they're on okay ground there. And if you throw something that's outside of what they've been trained in, it's just, it's scary, actually. I think that's a reasonable reason why you get that immediate pushback most of the time. You may remember the story back from the 1970s or early 80s. And I don't know if it's a popular or real, but a lot of people repeated the story that General Motors was worried about foreign cars, but they looked out the window and all they saw was American cars outside the corporate headquarters as well. They said, oh, there's no problem with foreign cars. The government may be the same way when they're all just, you know, they use IE, they use Windows and so forth. So you said that we have to be prepared to object to the arguments of proprietary software advocates. Can you expand a little bit on that? So what do they say typically? I think there's a common, they commonly say that open source software can't be secure or because it's open, that means that the, they can simply say it can't be high quality, but they can also say if it's open, that means that malicious intruders will find the security flaws and neglect them before we have a chance to fix them. That's an old argument. Of course, security, the malicious intruders seem to be able to deassemble the proprietary software pretty quickly. And I don't know why the EVD industry has not been able to create a format that can't be hacked, so this is the kind of control back of them. It was an interesting thing in the Peruvian case. Microsoft came in and they were the ones who tried to be the rational people. The Peruvians were driven partly by nationalistic goals, partly by rational goals to improve the software they were using and partly sort of the goals of freedom. So Microsoft said, hey, let's not talk about all these passionate things, all these emotional things. Let's just look at objectively whether the software does what you want and they thought that they could win simply by being more, because their software could be proven to be better in some way. But you'll hear a lot of complaints about support and just a lot of complaints that you can't trust free software. That's sort of arguments. You've given a couple of examples which are faiths in the media, as it were, the Massachusetts and the Munich transitions, but I was kind of assuming that there was now an awful lot of this going on and we didn't get to hear about it because it wasn't newsworthy anymore, but maybe that's wrong and, in fact, it's not happening. Do you know? I'm sorry, what is... Are there, in fact, lots of transitions to the course going on and it's just not a newsworthy thing anymore? Oh, sir, yeah, there's extra Madura in Spain and I have a lot of trouble and I will admit I have been doing a lot of research and having trouble getting information. Sometimes I do a lot of web searching after I heard about some of the software announcements and all these high-level announcements. We're going to move to free software in Latin America. I turned on the Spanish and Portuguese and Google and I did a lot of searching articles and I couldn't find any articles about actual successful transitions. I thought, did Google and Bing fail to update their indexes for the past five years? And then I thought, well, are there things going on but people just are too busy doing it and they don't talk to reporters? I don't know and I know there are things going on. Some people have been able to visit those countries and talk to the people in the government. Help me that. And I also, I try to use the internet to get information. I talk to people who are in academia and people who go to conferences and say, please put me in touch with some of the guys on the ground, the Peter J. Quinn's and the people working under them in these countries. I haven't been able to get very far so I talk about what I find and I'm sure there's a lot more going on. Hi, thanks for your talk and I had a question, first about the Munich experience. You mentioned that it wasn't, that they couldn't figure out if they could make the transition economical in a five year window. And I was wondering if there's any kind of long term tracking on that project and other projects and then as a comment on the thing that you just said about how you have been looking in Google for projects, it seems almost like a natural to have some kind of central reporting place for people to share their experiences and I was wondering if you had any knowledge of projects like that or if you would do something like that yourself? I haven't heard of it. It would be a great idea to have a place where people report back. There's one person, Florian Schiesel has been blogging a lot and doing presentations and I got some information from those things. But particular whether there's cost savings, how much it cost, I haven't seen anything in those and it would be nice to get that, okay? Yeah. I wanted to add something about all these success stories about migration. You mentioned some good examples. I wanted to add the one of the French, Gendarmerie, we have as a, there are two police corps in France, police and Gendarmerie. Gendarmerie is military organization and migrated first from office to open office for like 70,000 computers or each and every computer and are currently planning to migrate some of their end user workstation to actually open to. And we have the French Debian community has strong connection with these people and particularly Zach. I think you met already some people from the Gendarmerie and we intend to work on keeping these connections very close. We may want to talk about this experience. Great. I'll talk to you, yes. I have another less interesting experience and less successful, sorry. Okay, so I'll talk later with you about. Yeah, that will be a short one, yes. I mentioned in the previous Debian conference some stories about my experience to Bhutan who adopted GNU Linux for their national distribution. So in a small country in Ilimalayas and I think this is probably a failure story because they developed a national Linux distribution and I never heard about it since then probably because the proprietary software vendor made a lot of work afterwards to go over it and implement something that was suitable for their needs. Yes, and I said the proprietary vendors are very jealous. They don't want free software or open source software in governments because that legitimizes it. It means other people start to use it and so forth. I think one more question, maybe, right? Yeah. I think this will be relatively quick. Thanks for the talk. But everything seems to be focused here on desktops and I'm wondering if that's because kind of on the server side, we don't feel like there's more of a war there because all the discussion, at least all the good stories, bad stories seem to be focused on desktops orientations. Is that, and I'm just wondering where you see the server side of it. The new stuff that I was talking about, the challenges are often mobile apps and of course there's a whole nest of issues about free software and open source on those, but often it's about people getting access to government data. So it's more about people in the field and a lot of mobile applications. I think a lot's going on in the server area and the government that people are using Apache and so forth in government. So I guess a lot of the more publicized cases though have to do with migrating people on the desktop and this is where the average person who works in government sees what's going on. Thank you. I would like to thank Andy for his marvelous presentation. I think you gave us a very lucid insight in what happened in several open source projects and your ideas. Thank you very much and applause.


Hello and welcome to the session. In this session, we will discuss a question which says that calculate the volume of the rectangular pyramid with length 7 feet, width 4 feet and height 5 feet. Now before starting the solution of this question, we should know a result. Now volume of a prism is equal to area of its base into that is the distance between the bases. Now volume of a pyramid is equal to 1.3 of the volume of a prism. Therefore volume of a pyramid is equal to 1.3 into area of its base into height of the pyramid. Now these results will work out as a key idea for solving out the given question. And now we will start with the solution of the given question. Now it is given of the pyramid that is b is equal to 7 feet. Then width of the pyramid that is a is equal to 4 feet and height of the pyramid that is height of the a-bikes which is equal to Now from the key idea, we know that volume of a pyramid is equal to 1 by 3 into area of its base into height of the pyramid. So volume of the pyramid is equal to 1.3 into area of its base into the area of the base is equal to length into width. Now length here is 7 feet into width is 4 feet so this is equal to 28 square feet. Now height of the pyramid of its base is 28 square feet. The volume of the pyramid will be equal to 1 by 3 into area of its base which is 28 square feet into height of the pyramid which is which is equal to 140 by 3 cubic feet. So the volume of this pyramid is equal to 140 by 3 cubic feet. And this is the solution of the given question. That's all for this session. Hope you all have enjoyed the session.