All right, so from config management to infrastructure as code, and now CDK, as with all things in cloud native, even our IAC landscape is continuously moving target. It's past year alone, saw seismic shake up with the changing of the most popular tools licensing, Terraform, to a source available license. This was a catalyst for the forking of the open source Terraform project, Open Tofu, which was contributed to the Linux foundation and soon to the CNCF, which end of zero are one of the early and supporting full-time engineers on that project. But this ecosystem itself has seen its fair share of shifts and changes from on-prem to cloud serverless Kubernetes and everything else, and you can find a lot of interesting data on these trends in the IAC report from Firefly, you should check it out. And there are myriad tools, languages, methods for deploying technologies, and so that is why I have invited this esteemed panel of experts to help us unpack all this, how all these IAC changes have impacted our workloads, our cloud native operations directly, we'll explore and pontificate a little bit on what's coming next in the world of IAC, cloud native ecosystem where this meets the ICD, the worlds of Solomon, and even incident management and things like that, and where new developments are coming into play, open source trials and tribulations, challenges we still need to overcome, and you are most welcome to grill our panelists, that's what they're here for, so don't be ashamed to ask your own questions, we'd love to have audience participation and have you all kind of join in on the discussion, this is what it's for, this is when we bring the community together to actually ask and learn together, so without further ado, I would like to introduce our excellent panel here, we'll allow each of them to say a word about themselves and kind of what they love or hate about the IAC ecosystem, so we'll kick it off with you Mandy. Okay, yeah, great to see everybody today, oh my gosh, so I'm Mandy Walls, I'm currently a DevOps advocate at PagerDuty, I'm here though because I spent eight years at Chef before I started at PagerDuty, so been working in this space for a very long time, so excited to talk with you about what we've seen, what we've yet to see and what we hope to see. Hello, my name is Aran Bibi, I'm the co-founder and chief product officer at Firefly, in Firefly we are helping teams to get better control over the cloud and accelerate IAC adoption, and I will be here to share some of the insights that we found in the report that we recently released about the state of the IAC. So my name is Bonnie Franci, I'm a director of engineering at NF0, and at NF0 we do, we help you govern and deploy and scale your infrastructure as code, any kind of infrastructure as code at scale and with confidence, and I'm really here actually as one of the founding members of Open Tofu, we're here to kind of fill the pulse of the community we've had our first Open Tofu day yesterday, which was very, very exciting, and that's it, we're here to kind of hear how everybody feels. Hi, I'm Solomon, I'm the co-founder of Dagger, and we do CI pipelines as code, and actually we're discovering in this conference that people are using us for all sorts of pipelines as code, not just CI, which I think is scary and also interesting, and Docker before that, and yeah, I love the trend of everything as code, so let's turn everything into code. Yes, so yeah, so fine lineup here, quite a roster, so definitely tap into them if you have any questions, but yeah, let's get started. So wow, big year in the IAC space, this year was actually 30 years to the OG CF engine, who here has used CF engine in their lifetime, we've come a long way since CF engine, but also the year that the poster child terraform changed its license and all that, and the consequent fork, Chef has moved on from the world and a few other things, well not really, but kind of, and then we also have Docker that's evolved over time for open tofu, let's unpack this decade I guess of the IAC revolution kind of you know, like highlight the things that to you were like the most important milestones I guess, and the things that kind of changed the game in a sense. Yeah, okay, so I can't go back 30 years, I have used CF engine but only painfully, and yeah, I think over the past 10 years-ish starting post CF engine, Puppet and then Chef came in and we decided to have a programming language in a DSL versus like straight up like proprietary config language and that sort of changed things there. We also had a license split, like if you weren't a part of the Chef community at that time, there's still an open source fork of Chef called the sync project and those folks are are still pretty active, I talked to some of them last week at scale in Pasadena, so like everything old is new again, things maybe don't repeat but they rhyme and yeah, and we see now that I work at PagerDuty, we're sort of part of your tangential infrastructure and we see a lot of our largest customers relying on terraform to configure all their components even though we're not necessarily infrastructure but we really are infrastructure for that, so. I can share what we see in the recent report that the landscape is fragmented and we see a lot of people that are considering shifting between the current ISC that they are using into new ISC framework, so noticeable stuff will be people considering to adopt crossplane and also moving from terraform to open tofu or really I think one of the challenges in that specific ecosystem of other ISC is that there is a lot of tools but the community is still evolving so it's not like there is a consolidation, there is a fragmentation and I think this is one of the biggest challenges in managing cloud right now that we you have teams that are choosing the right tool but other teams within the same organization maybe taking a different approach, a different tool, a different concept and we see that being a trend in the industry right now. So yeah I very much relate to that, I think well first of all we've come a long way right from body of scripts which are completely stateless to managing our infrastructure and then kind of sharing those scripts and recipes and then evolving into a stateful deployment that is owned by a proprietary cloud or another and then something that evolves into much more than that with terraform and we see back from kind of going back from declarative code into imperative code again via CDK so we see all sorts of changing tides coming back and forth and we see that within teams, we see that between different companies and I think I very much relate to something I've also heard you say in one of your podcasts that kind of think that used to be in pass before Docker which kind of notion you had was you need to kind of separate the platform from the actual container right so not kind of solve two things at once and kind of focus on trying to be able to support the different preferences people have as to how they want to govern and manage their infrastructure so that's interesting. Yeah I you've talked about CF engine that that was a blast from the past really yeah 30 years yeah I mean it's funny because I didn't expect Docker to be relevant in this conversation but I mean I started out my starting point was being inspired by configuration management and the idea that you could sort of write down what you want your server to be you know describe the state that you want and then it would just happen and then cloud was just barely starting to happen right and you had CF engine puppet and but puppet was very server centric and I think you guys at chef were the first to say this DevOps cloud thing you know let's let's try to build a tool that's native to that you know and and that I mean so much happened and there's a lot of big events but I mean more recently what I'm excited about is that I think we're sort of figuring out that niche custom DSLs are great to start but at some point you need to go where the biggest ecosystems are you know the biggest ecosystem wins and mainstream languages just have the biggest ecosystems so if you can find a way to fit and connect to those ecosystems everything just sort of becomes easier you know because you're solving a problem together with a larger group of people so we went through that transition at dagger we started out with a DSL and then you know we're forced to go to mainstream languages because people wanted to use that so I yeah I feel like now the APIs are becoming powerful enough that you can you can you can actually do that and the state part I mean we don't have states you know so I'm I feel lucky in that way because state is a pain so we'll do the stateless pipeline you know pipelines and everyone else can figure out the really difficult state management part that's my strategy yeah so it's good that you touched on that you know the difference between a good question and a great question it's uh when it's in the presentation it's a good question but when it's the next question it's a great segue so on that note I was actually going to ask about like kind of the trend towards a cdk and programming language as infrastructure is actual code and not just uh their own domain specific language do we see does the world of cloud uh need a specific language I mean we've seen historically things like a dark lang that tried to actually be a cloud native programming language wing cloud out of televiv is doing the same sort of thing uh and I'm wondering do we need a cloud specific cloud native language to to rule them all do we want to just migrate over to programming languages and forget the whole dsl format what do you think is going to be the winner in all of this shake up I'm say yamal no please wrong yeah that was on purpose um and and I will say that because um I have a lot of ptsd about trying to teach people just enough ruby for chef and and then talking to our customers who are like hey we wrote this thing to turn yamal into terraform that then talks to our apis and all this stuff can we take it from us and maintain it because we don't want to maintain it um I think there's a certain amount of exhaustion among especially application engineers for specialized tools and the ability to the desire to abstract a lot of that stuff away from the frontline engineers is very very prominent right now especially with our largest customers I got a lot of shaking heads like you're probably seeing this especially if you have very very large engineering organizations no one wants to spend time across 20 000 engineers teaching everybody yet another tool and like we're seeing a lot of that pushback with our larger customers as well like they're just people are exhausted and they're tired of learning little bits of pieces just to address one component of their infrastructure or one component of their job um so I'm encouraged by all these other meta tools and other things that are going on that um we can pull folks back out of that and get them back into the innovation and creativity and service of the customer and not in service of addressing the infrastructure yep I definitely can agree with that I think it's really about how you are structuring the responsibility within the organization whether the actual developers are responsible for cloud infrastructure or you have a central team like the platform team or a DevOps team that is doing that for them or abstracting and providing those self-service flows so if it will be developer definitely the developer will prefer a common language but what I see right now is again a shift where developer is less responsible for the provisioning and this is being abstracted for them so the platform team really can decide whether they use YAML or they use other type of language in order to provision and maybe this is the way moving forward and again I agree people don't like to learn more and more languages and there is a barrier of skills and usually this is what is being considered as the way to do in a specific account so I very much relate to that I think it really all boils down to your organizational structure right who owns this this piece of code and who who should be maintaining it and what level of obstruction you want to offer we've seen all kinds of paradigm shifts right I mean cross plane is one which you've mentioned YAML I mean whoever uses cross plane thought it was a good idea to use that and and it's probably because organizations who use heavily used Kubernetes are very much used to that language and all right that's one less thing to learn and it also can be told about Go or TypeScript or JavaScript or Rust or whatever language or CDK supports right so in that sense it really depends on who your target audience is right and I think that's a good thing that you can actually support them all and let the organization decide how they want it to be structured right and what level of structure they want to offer if they want to own more of the coding side on the developer side or actually more of a less more an abstraction and more familiar tools in the DevOps world yeah I I think all that's true I also think the the DevOps and infrastructure community when it comes to ecosystems is thinking too small because we're we're so used as a community to the platform we're not really used to real platforms anymore because if you dig through the layers of scripts in YAML it's still Linux you know and bash I guess you know it's bash on Linux and everything else is just glue around it and that's been true since CF engine it hasn't really changed and and so I think we're we're doing a great job at solving the problems that don't really need a new platform and that's the problems we're talking about like provisioning provisioning the cluster provisioning the buckets you know some some gluing together but as soon as you it becomes pipelines of course you know I see pipelines everywhere now so sorry it's biased but you know provisioning the stuff in in Terraform is kind of the easy part now uh then you got to glue everything into that because you need the application to get on there and you need to build 10 different pieces and run integration tests and all that all that glue and sometimes you try to do to do that glue with Terraform or whatever infrastructure tool you're using um and that usually it not only goes so far because it's not really made for that and then or same thing for communities operators like you can only do so much composition of operators you know so I I'm sure some people in the room disagree but I think sometimes the answer is well communities is the platform no it's it's not a thing to program I mean you can extend communities but um if you want to know what a real platform is you go as developers you know like iOS is a platform Java is a platform uh we just need we need platforms like that it's just really hard to do uh and it requires um like you know you got it when you can write real code in a regular language and the you know the API docs make sense you know and the SDKs make sense it is a really hard problem to solve I think I credit Pulumi a lot for pushing you know building momentum in that direction um it's just I don't think we're there yet it's it's um yeah it's it's hard to do but my point is simply that we have to remember that we're not there we have to set the bar higher because a bunch of scripts gluing Terraform and 30 other tools together uh that's not the like it's not supposed to be like that you know we gotta we got some work to do yeah yeah that's actually a good point that's a good direction I actually did want to touch a little bit more on the Terraform and open TOEFL but we'll come back to that in a minute but you touched on something you keep bringing back to other things but uh let's talk about abstractions for the cloud like I think that that's what you're getting at in that there's so much complexity you talked about the complexity and the fragmentation and that in the report it just is getting worse and harder and and eventually infrastructure is supposed to just you know serve a higher order goal right and there shouldn't have to be so much work and complexity at just having your infrastructure run so let's unpack that a little bit and why we're failing at the whole abstraction for the cloud part and making it a lot easier maybe I can share that as I see it it's not just about putting infrastructure in the cloud it sounds easy you have access you do some click ops you have stuff but in the real life you need to make sure everything is in the right governance and it's not a policy violation from a security perspective or even from cost perspective and you need to make sure that you have that blueprint so you can replicate it so there is a real need to make sure that you have that template in place and it probably modifies the way that your organization allows to put infrastructure and this is one of the item that makes stuff more complicated so it's not just writing a manifest and then everybody can use it you need to make sure that manifest is whitelisted and approved and you have that pipeline that is making sure that it's okay to provision and give you the thumbs up and this is okay to go to the cloud and to make it right and to make it consistent you need to have a very good framework and discipline and somebody to really care that this is how stuff need to be done in your organization yeah so I think that's very true I mean configuration at the end of the day is is terraform and those kind of languages are not just about deploying infrastructure we're seeing providers for page duty and we're seeing providers for pretty much anything else so yeah the easy part is deploying infrastructure but there's there's more than that there is configuration infrastructure that you want to maintain the way you deliver it right you want to maintain a certain policy in the organization that can be different in different teams in the organization and could be exclusive to everyone so different configuration different policies different governance at the very organization level are very very important beyond just infrastructure and yes it's true at the end they want to deliver applications but there is so much around them that really much revolves around the same paradigm which I think is where these these kind of tools shine best yeah that's good to say too vendor lock-in right like all the vendors have their preferences they want to keep you around and keep you paying their bills for them so pushing you to a place where your switching costs are increasing because you have invested a whole lot of resources into addressing their particular end points is super important for them right but also like looking at that looking at some of the apis that are present in the industry and in the marketplace for cloud in particular some of them are an absolute nightmare right and you think about apis have been around forever but as a disciplined practice and as part of the product management of the products apis feel very nascent like they feel very infantile in a lot of places where product folks are just now thinking about them as sort of a first class part of the product so that you're only just now starting to get consistency and predictability and the kind of behaviors you're expecting out of those end points so I feel like we're at an infancy part of this sort of like getting to better ways to address all of these complex structures because the product just hasn't been there it hasn't been part of the discipline I sense that you have input on the things that Iran would talk about a little bit about the workflows and the yeah yeah I think I you made me think about a few things like the I think that is one huge potential benefit of turning all of this mess into code once you have code you can start open sourcing some of that code and and then you can have a commoditization process where some some things that you're that are black boxes proprietary services that you're paying a lot of money for usually there's a core that's really difficult to do and it makes sense to to pay someone else to do it but then you need to expand the subscription you need to add value and so you have all these additional satellite features that come with the black box you know an example that I'm familiar with because I see it all the time you know is a deployment service they host your application that's great but they also build for you but maybe the build is a little extra you know and then you think well I can build my stuff but you know it kind of comes together and then if if you can you can implement your own build logic but it's going to be a bunch of scripts but if you know as apis appear that allow you to express more and more of your workflow in your stack as codes then from there you can say hey I wrote the code who wants to use it and I think it's a natural pushback against the expanding black boxes and it kind of reminds me of the early days of linux you know when I mean red hat was the catalyst for this you had a lot of proprietary unix systems and and then linux appeared and red hat sort of created the packaging ecosystem the platform around it to say you know what we're going to open source a lot of stuff that used to be very expensive now you know and the adoption of that platform the red hat platform I think now we tend to forget a lot of it was cost reduction it was the buyers pushing back against proprietary vendors so I think that's the opportunity now you know turn all that into code and then we can start pushing back a little bit okay but I'm going to bring us back to our original topic of infrastructure as code specifically no no what's happening in this ecosystem right now because I still think there's a lot to unpack there so first of all I just recently read an article from ohad may switch the CEO and co-founder and zero about how he spoke about the terraform binary becoming maybe the HTTP for I see now that there are two variants in a sense and and they have become kind of the most popularly de facto adopted kind of way of configuring and provisioning infrastructure what do you think about this about these two competing and complementary in a sense almost formats of running infrastructure as code and also how it's going to play out for other industry players who aren't kind of aligned with that syntax and like Pulumi and crossplane and the others that you and yeah so so as I said I feel like there's a constant shifting of the tights right we that there was there's a there's a great promise in in terraform and what it does and what they deliver and we can see that you can see that Pulumi also has support for terraform providers we can also see that in even in crossplane right so it it kind of almost as if terraform providers are now used in open tofu in terraform in crossplane in Pulumi so that that that's a that's a big deal right that means that something in that contract role works really well for several technologies and you mentioned something about vendor locking which I think is very important to say right at the end at the end of the day and you also mentioned it in the sense of choosing a a commodity programming language I think what the important part is you choose something that will make sure that whatever you write you can deploy it and you can govern it and manage it manage it and you can eject from one vendor to another whether it be a type script or something else or but so long as the technology allows you to lift and shift between different offerings and different platforms and you can deploy this code in really any way you like in any provider or vendor or platform that allows you the best value and the best value for your dollar then yes absolutely that'd be the one I would choose so it's interesting as as we spiral around between very declarative language that starts to pick up some imperative thoughts and then back to imperative languages who who start governing then another twist around to the declarative language with yarmals so that's fine I mean everybody has their preference so long as you can lift and shift I think that's that's key and yes in the end of the day we also see a collision between these words where providers are used on very different platforms so yeah that's that's my opinion on that maybe to add something about specifically the dilemma between you know terraform and open tofu that was basically open top was split out with terraform I think the migration effort between IAC tools is something that always need to be considered as a significant effort and people that are now in that dilemma whether to adopt open tofu or not as I see it I think this is the time to make that decision it will be easier to migrate and choose the right path for you now because they are relatively very similar but moving forward when the community will take open tofu into another path I guess it will be a different type of tools correct me if I wrong yeah so right now there is no migration path right it's just a drop in replacement so you can go ahead and try it it's relatively easy but let's say let's say like two years from now four years from now I will assume you will never know but I will assume it will be two different tools and the migration if you will take the time to take the decision will be harder and more time consuming so there is that dimension of taking action right now this is what I think this is what I suggest for companies that are asking me about open tofu whether I should adopt I'm just pushing them to really evaluate evaluate that decision in the near time frame because it will be harder to take a decision later on so I think it's very true and like I said right now it's a very it's simply a drop in replacement and the key part is you you really get to choose you get to choose you get to turn back if you want to we really keep an eye on that and we want the tools to evolve right now in ways that we offer additional opt-in features right nothing that will ever break compatibility and like I said providers are used in so many different ways beyond open tofu and terra from so you know you're safe there right otherwise it'd be a completely different complete different story so yeah that's a good point were you asking about declarative versus imperative at some point go right ahead favorite we're gonna go rogue no no by all means I feel like I'm asking the question for you no no good I'm actually interested but you have to say about that no because at some point you guys were talking about choosing one model versus the other and the back and forth um yeah I think what one thing we've seen is choosing imperative languages but then not having uh the underlying apis to support it in our world we have Jenkins and groovy and so when we say hey we do see eye as code we'll say okay I've done that before where that road leads you know madness but but but I think in that case the problem is there is no declarative api underneath the good example is if you write a web application in php or any imperative language you're gonna make queries your data in sql which is a declarative language you know so that I think that's the right model you know the the hybrid of an imperative language that lets you query declarative apis I think in the long run wins my opinion because you get kind of the best of both worlds right so interesting do you have any thoughts I don't want to go imperative during this declarative I feel like I'm back in like 2008 we have had that discussion so many times but like I'm glad you still love it it's amazing I'm listening about the open tofu stuff though because like the we have a fork like that like you can't assume that whatever the corporate entity is going to do is going to stay static forever and we probably all seen in the news the past couple weeks some of the tremors about what's going on with with hashi and what question right who knows right if they get bought if their structure changes or any of those kinds of things that could impact things downstream now in the long term it's better for hashi to keep an eye on open tofu and see what's going on there what's popular see what they could pull in what their product managers missed that the community has taken the effort to implement themselves to say oh yeah this was something we probably should have looked at and pull that stuff back through it's almost gonna be like an inception like a terraform distribution of itself yeah well that'd be interesting um yeah but I mean our focus really was to begin with we keep saying four but it's it's really to preserve the preserve terraform is open source right and preserve people's ability to to influence on it as well we've we've very recently added a feature that was very much a high demand one in terraform for a while you know secrets sitting in your state in plain text it's kind of a big deal and so we were able to actually push things like that forward or actually not us it's the community actually was able to actually get behind such a pull request and push it forward so we're very humbled by the support we've gotten and we actually see how it can positively affect that project and I'm sure we'll see the same of kind of affecting terraform right back and forth yeah absolutely like that's one of those features that's like from an enterprise software perspective like it's something that everybody wants but nobody wants to actually say they want to pay for so while it takes a bunch of resources to implement it on the corporate side like you don't have the justification for it because it doesn't add to to your pipeline to your licenses so like it's then you get this like proof of value from right directly from the community like hey we really want this even though you don't want to build it for us and I think this kind of thing can only happen when the project really is owned by a foundation and not by a commercial entity I mean we're in zero we don't own this project it's a little foundation who do there are other commercial vendors behind it there are other open source spread vendors behind it but everybody kind of pushes there in a certain way but Linux Foundation kind of enforces us to sit down as a committee and make sure that what's being done is done by the community and being published to be very transparent about it so that's that's very good by the way you mentioned you mentioned the the inception you know hashi corp being a distribution of itself yeah open tofu maybe and maybe they could have done that themselves that that's kind of how we all got here with Docker being its own right I mean the CNCF started out as the open tofu of Docker right we spun out Runci and OCI we spun out container D and a few others but I mean container D turned out to be the most important and I mean that was a very happy transition container D is a very successful project it's exactly like you know open tofu it's not the whole product it's a component but Docker to this day is a happy downstream distribution of container D you know and it's so much better that way so maybe we should have done it earlier this is going to be my last question and I'm happy to see if anybody else wants to chime in and ask some questions but uh so it's funny kind of another inception but I listened to the IAC podcast about the IAC report the state of IAC report um and one of the things that one of the data points that was actually interesting to me was kind of this trend of migration away from the the traditional tools the terraform and the cloud formations etc and then I guess the most controversial question of them all is uh was this miscalculation on hashi corp's part and we're also hearing that the buzz of maybe looking for you know um buyer and uh you know moving on I don't know uh so I'm wondering what are your thoughts on how this might play out and uh right move wrong move it's hard to say but I just wondering it's it's hard to say uh right now I think it's too soon uh to see whether existing customers of hashi corp will take a different path and um I think they uh well considered all of the options by doing this movie including uh people getting upset about uh that specific action of them but eventually this is you know a corporate decision and um I think in one or two years from now it will be very clear whether they did the right decision or not commercially again for them I think eventually for the community with having open tofu uh came to life uh it's good to the community and is it backed by um the lynx foundation so it's now free from any risk of being uh closed uh in the future uh so right right now we have that dilemma whether to migrate or not it's a it's a pain I know but eventually for the long term as you mentioned uh features that was highly requested by the community now being accepted and implemented so I will consider that a good news for the community and not very sure about how ashi will the future of ashi will be on that specific topic I so I don't really have an opinion on whether it's good or bad for hashi corp but it it's been very helpful for me because we have an open source engine and we have a commercial strategy that involves not changing the license it's a pain to do it you don't have to red hat didn't have to anyway so we that's our model and I don't think we'll ever change it I think it'll be very successful but the one question I can't answer is what if you change your mind later you know what if you get bought what if you get fired and a new CEO comes in and changes the plan you know I can't really answer that you know because I can't tell you I can't tell you the future but now I can say well that's what happened with ashi corp and it was it went fine right and got forts there's a foundation so you know if we do that in the future I guess that's what will happen so you'll be fine so it's actually very helpful as an answer to that what if question you know that it played out okay so thank you they chanced it and they put their neck out and everyone else now has a better answer about that that's great uh any questions from the uh from the audience for this esteemed panel of experts anyone how much time how do we how are we doing on time we need to wrap up or time's up is that a time's up sign do I have one more question yeah okay so bonus question since uh we can't have a panel on a on uh I see without asking about AI the future game changer is it going to change the way uh we work is it going to free up engineers to do higher order things is it a high cycle uh for now I think it's a very good shortcut again if everything is described as code and AI can generate code so you can generate infrastructure as code and uh the most popular models are doing a decent job of course there is always the lag between the latest and greatest and new resources uh that been introduced into terraform for example are not uh available in the AI models so there is a lag however I think it's a great shortcut and we also see that in the report when we ask how people provisioning and creating new manifest so AI was one of the answers and I think this trend going to be popular and we also talked about the skills gaps so I think this is another way to reduce the skill gaps everybody can you know use natural language to ask for a manifest for an EKS cluster and he will get something that is I guess close enough for uh uh being used this is my fault so I see it as as a catalyst really because at the end of the day I mean we've said infrastructure as code is so great because and I'm saying saying this from an engineer perspective who kind of made some transition I was able to see wait but so of course you have to have your your um your changes be governed by Git and you have to have approval flows and you have to have this transparency and you have to have the ability to roll back and you have to have all of these things that are very commodity and basic and for anyone who's coding for for a while and then to learn that infrastructure is not it was not managed like that for a long while was okay that's a that's a surprise so um here's another thing we can we can basically earn now um we all all of us in the coding world we use AI all the time as with co-pilot and and things like that to help us out there's obviously a great reason to use it with uh any kind of code we're of course being it a commodity coding language a programming language uh but not just right so yeah yeah I I kind of agree like especially for small and medium sized organizations like it's going to be the most helpful I think when you get to scale and have a lot of engineers you're going to get more benefit and more control and compliance and those kinds of things by maybe doubling down on an actual platform practice if anybody wants a platform engineering day on the first day and and and those kinds of of um projects like piling up those kinds of teams um to go pave the golden path for people so that you're not just downloading or predictive texting your way into infrastructure that may or may not meet your compliance and regulation needs just making sure that everybody is following the path that they're supposed to and putting your resources there rather than hoping you're going to pull stuff off the internet that works right any concerns about quality always yeah always absolutely like are we gonna wake up in five years with like tons of like garbage code and uh we already have that but we got it from stack overflow instead of co-pilot so I stack over for a keyboard of copying pacing right I think actually that the so there's all of that 100% you know oh it's code oh it can generate the code wait what what does that generate code but it's going to get better I'm sure but I think we're we're we're also underestimating generating code is the obvious one uh there's the counterpart also hey this this DSL is terrible but chat GPT can generate it so maybe I don't need regular code so I think for a while I was worried that you know gen AI was going to slow down the adoption of uh you know the switch to mainstream programming languages because it's less urgently needed but I think actually that's there's so many other reasons like we talked about but separately from all that I think one one amazing feature of gen AI that that's being slept on is function calls you know the whole agents thing for now it only works really well with GPT for the open models are not really caught up but it it it works really well I think everyone's going to catch up and you don't need to generate code you can hook up these function calls to apis and then you can have the lm do things on your infrastructure without having to go through generating code I think that will work better for a lot of the stuff we're talking about yeah sure a little break still but okay it looks like we're out of time lights are up so thank you all for joining us


Hi, you guys welcome back to first impression Friday where I review an Entire sewing pattern collection. If you're new here, my name is Lindsay. Welcome. I am so glad you found me Be sure to leave a comment in the comment section below Introducing yourself so that I can give you a formal welcome Today we are gonna be reviewing half moon atelier. I have heard of them before And I'm excited to take a look at their entire collection Taking a look at the little about section here. This is a Megan half moon I half expected half moon to be just sort of some, you know, ethereal type of cute name for a Sewing pattern, but no, it's her last name and She is very very big on basics Sustainability both in you know Not contributing to fast fashion But also in the fabrics that we use to sew the garments at home very ethical Organic fair trade, you know, all of those kind of keywords. She is living the life She kind of believes that blesses more and then if you have more basics you get more out of your wardrobe So on and so forth. So that's what I'm expecting from this collection very basic buildable type of Patterns First things first we have her half moon 101 jeans around sixteen dollars not around it is exactly sixteen dollars and All right, it says reminiscent of my client classic the half moon 101 jeans are a lower rise Straight leg and designed for non-stretch denim designed to be snug around the hips and upper thighs the half moon 101s will curve nicely around your waist and hug your hips before straightening out from just above the knee toward the angle There's an option for a zipper or concealed button fly and the instructions will walk you through flat felling the seams to create a simple Look with truly individual fit Pattern is drafted for a five six female With full hip ranging from 33 and three-quarter inches up to 67. I don't know that it gets much more inclusive than that Right, I don't think we see 67 inch hips very often at all even among the pattern designers who claim to be You know Fully size inclusive. I think maybe 61 62 was about the highest. I recall seeing so a 67. That's that's incredible Step-by-step instructions for blah blah blah. Okay. We know all that already general info Da da da it comes in print at home AO and copy shop files are included Okay, you can layer your sizes 18 sizes approximately a US zero to 36 women's They do not follow standard sizing charts But newer patterns including the 101 jeans range again from the 33 and three-quarters to 67 inches numbered 1 to 18 But correspond to these sizes. So that's just sort of like explaining to the newbie sewer How sewing pattern sizes and ready to wear sizes are very different Okay, so fabric recommendations non-stretch denim 10 to 9 to 10 ounces denim 12 fabric The straight side seems make this pattern perfect for salvage denim if you're not familiar salvage denim Gosh, how do I even explain this? I really don't know a lot about it now that I'm thinking about it other than it has that little red thread going through the salvage itself Maybe someone out there who's a little bit more fabric savvy can explain the uniqueness and why salvage denim is so ideal for jeans Then there's a lining. I think this is for your pocket bags. Oh, yeah pocket bags fly shield and waist bag waistband lining and Then you'll need a jeans zipper jeans buttons midway interfacing thread and topstitching thread rivets and jeans machine needles Yeah difficulty. She's calling it intermediate That's that's bold. I would call it, you know More close to advance than intermediate, but maybe it's just like more tedious than difficult So, I don't know maybe she's right And then she has all these blog posts that you can check out too The jeans on different bodies fabric hardware and styling inspiration and a sew along for tips and tricks so lots of great Supplemental kind of information there. This does not get bigger and as I you know mouse over it It just moves the photo. So this is all we got This is a looks like a back view Where you can see the kind of well really you can see the straight-leggedness of it all You can see pocket placement, which is nice We've got this photo here Where you can see some of the details. I mean they look pretty professed to me These black ones are sort of hard to see. This is an example of what the instructions look like Here is the yellow version again Certainly some issues here in constructing this fly We don't ever want to see the zipper and all of these wrinkles are pulling maybe there needed to be some sort of full-belly adjustment There's the size chart that we already talked about Here is another cute version with a little frayed hem Right got great details with the yoke in the waistband belt carriers Pocket placement is something else. I look for in jeans. I like how this one is higher toward the Center and then it kind of drops down subtly toward the outer thigh That's good. And I think that the the space between them is also Nice and they're not too high not too low now. This is remember. She said a low rise. So That's something to keep in mind too, but that's something that you like Here are the back of the yellow ones again here are the gray ones again yellow from the side And then the blue jeans from the back. Alright, so not, you know, the most thorough detailed photos But they are really beautiful, I guess and then here's our line drawing Yeah, I guess the only thing I wish that I think is missing from these photos is truly what the low rise Means like how low rise are we talking? This is probably the closest photo we have of showing it looks like it's sitting kind of at her high hip, right? That won't work for me and my body tight, but But that's what I'm getting from this kind of like a high hip Situation so those are her jeans. There's lots of great indie jeans out there So she's just thrown her hat in the ring with this one now. We have the strand dress 14 bucks this design was inspired by simple summer daydreaming by vivid memories of long hot summer days The romantic narrative of dancing in a field of wildflowers by the second film in my all-time Favorite trilogy before sunset. Wow, what a what sort of visual imagery she gives us Before we even see the pattern It has a slight 70s vibe with the clean modern lines as a top it can be worn loose or tucked in The dress features inseam pockets and a drawstring Allowing you to easily adjust the fit and feel of the dress at any point in the day Okay, so this is really like kind of a lot of patterns in one This is the front and back of the top and then you can add on this little skirt with a tear And it's really two patterns in one, right? Okay, so here are our lovely ladies. This is the top and maybe some kind of gauze Then we've got the dress and maybe some kind of linen very beautiful easy to wear And then this is the top. I just love her smile. This is the top tucked in Out of maybe some kind of cotton or something But you've got a really beautiful kind of gathered detail here. I also love kind of the shape You know how the aren't the straps are kind of like curved in that's a really nice detail, too Yeah, I mean everybody has their arms down here This does look a little bit big on her, but that could just be because it wasn't made exactly for her Yeah, really pretty. I like that the drawstrings also are on the side I think that for those of us that have maybe a little bit of extra weight in the center Putting a little bow there and drawing attention to that maybe not be maybe not be the the most You know favorable thing to do so having them on the side is really nice because you still get the you know functionality of it But it's not distracting from the front of the dress Okay, here's a close-up of the bodice Yeah, it does look like this. Is that like a little mitered situation? Yeah, I think they executed it beautifully in this sample I don't know how hard it is to do on your own There's another close-up of it Here is another version. They did a little raw hem here. That's really cute one in a little print Yeah, here's the back. This is like the first view of the back that we get and then here's this view, too So my concern was with this little curvy strap situation How they were going to be how they were going to set into the to the back band It looks really nice and flat and straight and everything looks great cute little pattern My mom here's the size chart again for this one the full bust is most relevant and it looks like it goes from 31 and a half in a B cup up to 65 inches in a D cup So again very very inclusive Fabric is lightweight woven fabrics with some drape like cotton lawn double gauze linen silk You'll need some interfacing thread and then some twill tape for your drawstring and then this is The amount of interfacing you need What is oh, this is fabric requirements And this is an advanced beginner to intermediate Yeah, I'm assuming that these pieces these two pieces are sewn together first and then you sew on the strap That would make the most sense to me and when you do it that way Yeah, it seems like it would come together pretty easily All right now we're on to the La Brea tea I think this is the one that I've seen the most on like social media 14 bucks the La Brea tea is named after La Brea Avenue in Los Angeles a vintage shop where I found myself drawn to a rack of 80s throwback knit t-shirt who've grown on sleeves and bound necklines I remember this style as a child and I couldn't wait to get back home and so on up for myself. Okay? Um La Brea will fit your basic t-needs. It's got plenty of interesting details La Brea was drafted for both woven and knit fabrics each resulting completely different look raw edges are neatly worked away with French seams and bias finding great details And then 18 different layered and nested sizes with the ND cup options A little additional tips on fitting. Okay And here's our line drawing not much to it. I think this is the knit version and this is the woven version Fabric for view a is light to midweight knits without additional lycra or elastane like a hundred percent cotton linen hemp or modal knits If you prefer to use a stretch knit like a cotton and elastane blend size down one or two sizes Um Okay, and then VB the woven version midweight woven's like cotton linen rayon silk and double gauze The draper the fabric will change the look of the final garment Lots of good information here on fabrics Your notions you just need coordinating thread bias tape and a ballpoint or stretch needle if you're sewing with the knit version woven version you can just use a universal needle beginner or Adventurous beginner view B is suited most to beginners the woven version and then all of these little blog posts to help you your fabric requirements For the both of the views are in there as well. Okay, let's take a look at these photos You can see the top here. This is a maybe some kind of like Linen or something that she died herself. Remember when like Shibori with like DIY Shibori was like the thing on Instagram This might be a result of that. I love this detail on the knit version That's what all of this is That like extra little line there is like all of this little bias binding stuff It is there. I'm getting strong like when she says 80s throwback knit t-shirts. I'm getting that here I love that this is a grown-on tee like a grown-on sleeve tee But with this detail it makes it not seem so Like I don't know frumpy like sometimes those grown-on sleeves can just be like sort of bleh But this little detail of the little like almost like a tulip situation is just really really sweet I mean what a cool outfit, right? And then here it is with a little neckband from the side Yeah, good fit through the bust here straight side seam really nice You can also get an idea of the length of it there, too I mean it's going down almost to her full hip And then because the knit version has a little band at the bottom which is optional You can kind of scrunch it up to your high hip a little bit. All right. That's the LeBria tee Next we have the wrap dress top-and-dress Vondell Although very Parisian inspired wrap top Vondell is named after the Vondell Park in Amsterdam A park where I have spent countless blissful hours biking playing with my kids and relaxing on picnic blankets It is feminine easy to wear true wrap with a deep V and long waist tie to close features a one-piece shoulder yoke That's cool with a curved center back in front curved I'm sorry a curve get curved center back in front I'm not sure what that means And that gathers for shaping does she mean the I guess the yoke. We're still talking about the yoke Okay. Okay. Yeah with three sleeve length options cuff half and Seven eighths sleeve as well as three lengths top short dress and midi dress You can make a different Vondell for every occasion this pattern includes French seams the burrito method Which we love and other creative techniques to achieve a beautiful clean finish Thanks to detailed instructions the perfect pattern to learn French seams or to level up your sewing game Okay, so this is drafted for a B cup only And we might only have Sizes one through ten. Yeah, so it is only half of the size chart that we have been looking at before Which means a full bust of 30 to 44 inches and then a full hip of 34 to 48 So technically this doesn't even fit me so great to see that she has kind of Extended her size range fully to I mean like I said before very very extensive And hopefully she's going back and doing some of these older patterns, too Okay, so midway to woven fabric with drapes such as double gods crepes silk tinsel rayon linen shirting and wall again We talked about fabric a little bit in the beginning in the about section. She's always only going to Suggest fabrics that are Natural not man-made, you know things like that. So that's why we're seeing some of these repeat so often cottons and gauze and rayons and linen for sure okay Notions are minimal you do need a sew on snap for like the I guess the left side or whatever the inside of it opposite from the tie and She's calling this intermediate and then again. We have four different blog posts related to this pattern Something cool.  I love that detail Something simple we can all incorporate and then yeah, we've got the yoke that she's talking about is all in one So from front to back. It's one piece. There's no scene here It does extend to the end of your arm the end of your shoulder and then you've got a small Sleeve head because of that because it's not cut in at all You don't need a lot of like Gathering you don't need a lot of like, you know The shaping in this little area to create that ball for the ball of your shoulder And then this is the knee length maybe some kind of like scoopy him Yeah, like little scoopy him here. I love that Here is another version Sleeve less well What did she call it? Cough. Yeah, so it still is a sleeve and it still extends to the edge of your shoulder This is not technically sleeveless. I think that the height of the sleeve Opening is really good Maybe this so on snap goes here And it ties on the inside Here's another view of that all in one shoulder all in one yoke Here it is as a top and then more photos of the dress. Here's the back So again all one piece yoke and then this is the curved Center back that she was referring to you can get a good view of just how wide the shoulder goes all the way to The end of your shoulder and then it's like not even a sleeve cap It's just kind of sort of sewn in right there on the edge And then the top again, okay Cute simple little wrap With with really nice details Okay, this is the oh lord boat neck Onigata Named after the sparsely populated and northernmost of the British Virgin Islands I've never heard of the onigata island am I saying that wrong is a semi-fitted super basic T with an Unconventional feminine touch view a features a wider neckline Displaying a little extra shoulder the raw edge Allows the fabric to roll over nonchalantly and also very easy to sew because you aren't sewing Exposing the inside the fabric and creating a little cowl neckline depending on the I think this is supposed to save drape of the fabric The UB is a true everyday boat neck with mini box pleats Depending on your twist of fabric this universally flattering Simple pattern can take you from the gym to the opera and it's sure to become an absolute favorite any casual wardrobe I don't know about the opera, but I mean Maybe and again, this is the the more standard sizing 1 to 10 only Okay So is this where's the fabric information? Oh Lightweight to medium weight knits with some drape such as jersey bamboo ray on jersey interlock t-shirt weight merino French terry lightweight sweatshirting and 25 to 100 percent stretch Fabric requirements are based on the size 10 Okay Okay All right, so here she is. This is the view a And there is like a bit like you've known baby onesies how there's that little like crossover That's sort of what's happening there So it's not a traditional straight shoulder And again, you've got your arm size set in really close to the edge of the body an Elbow cuff and a cuff band down here cut on the bias both of those are You can tell that the sleeve is I don't know the technical term, but you can tell that the sleeve is the sleeve cap is not super bell shaped because Normally you'd have a stripe that goes like this and then this the sleeve stripe would kind of take off at an angle This is almost straight all the way across So pretty flat Sleeve head there I would imagine There's the back Kind of a lot of gathering here because the band is being kind of pulled up by the curves of her body There's a cute picture of the Neckline see how it rolls and I think she used a French terry too. So that is what is exposed. That's really cute detail I can see that like in a gap shirt or something, you know Here is it like flat-laid Are we gonna get any pictures of the other one? Oh, this is the other one. Okay, cool So this is the little box plates that she talked about it has an actual neck band and a little bit. I Mean she says one is really wide and one is narrow, but they're kind of the same to me Same with the stripes one's also emitting the band so you can see it kind of sits a little bit more relaxed on her lower bodice There's the neck band there Oh, here she is on the island Having her idyllic little picnic. What a life, right? Geez. I mean if that sewing this and wearing this pattern gets me all this Yes, please Okay, now we've got the del P valet top del P dress I think I'm gonna love this Ballet top del P is inspired in equal parts by Julie del P's character Selene in the film before sunrise, which she has mentioned before Maybe as we're sewing her patterns the half-moon patterns. We should all be watching these films That would be a fun little All like an immersive experience, right? Okay, and the ballet leotards I wore as a child a simple basic with flattering touch of elegance ballet top or dress del P Will become a versatile staple in your capsule wardrobe perfect on a warm summer day Or as a light layering piece under a cashmere cardigan on cooler days Delphi is easy to wear camisole top that is fitted in the bust and looser around the waist and hips as a dress and Loosely graces over your hips and has a unique rounded corner and slit Has a bust gather and thin straps with three options of back views including scoop straight and cross straps Allowing you to customize your top or dress to fit your own personal style. So from the waist up fully getting Ballet leotard vibes, right? It's this sort of like sweetheart situation Plus the little gathers here and the little thin straps so cute and then from here down is the combination that she's referring to But look how cool this is So unique, right? Like one one side seam is this little curved edge and the other side seam is straight And then here are our three backs All right Sizes one through ten again lightweight woven such as double gauze cotton lawn rayon or linen Also be lovely in a satin silk or velvet, especially if you were able to cut it on the cross grain. Oh my gosh Or on the bias The Delphi pattern can easily adopted to knits by simply dropping a full or partial size depending upon the stretch content. Okay lots of Tutorials and stuff. She's got a sew along. She's got a hack for bias bound seams Okay, um a partial button placket along the center front some kind of jazzy hack Um, this is how she made it into a knit dress So yeah, lots of information about this one. So here it is Pretty cool, right? I mean, obviously you could mimic the scoop on both sides, but I don't know. I just think it's kind of fun How it's like Got only one pocket, you know, it's unique Here's the top. I mean that's beautiful That looks genuinely stunning Here's the scoop back Maybe a little too tight on the hips here, which is why we're getting all of this Bunching So cute. Oh, there's also a little bust start here, which I missed in the line drawing, but it's definitely right there and then Here's her working on the flat lay. That's a fun photo This is also it from the inside No, she just left exposed serger um Finish that's cool Here's the top. I do like it with a little tie belt Scoot back again All right, that's it. That's all the photos we're going to get so I don't know this top is stunning Really really beautiful All right, that is the Delphi Next we have Super basic underpants, which I'm going to skip. I don't know a lot about lingerie um I just don't know how to review it, but she has been here We've got the midi skirt roma, which has a similar design detail as the dress we just looked at with the one scoop um elastic waist right not a lot to this modern minimalist pencil skirt, okay It has sizes one through ten again, and you're going to use your lightweight wovens like she has referred to Light to medium weight wovens like she's referred to in almost every other woven pattern um Yeah, and super deep elastic, which I really like not a lot of photos on this one either But she did all exposed serger Stuff, which is pretty cool Which I think is what this is illustrating Uh, I guess the only difference between b and a is that a is top stitch and b is not. I don't know. I can't really tell She doesn't go through each one of the views like she has in the past Okay Now we've got the summer jumpsuit. This one's called tofu Um summer jumpsuit tofu is ideal for long warm summer days Whether you're heading to the beach or park with the kids running around town or on a date with someone special This jumpsuit will work with you and your lifestyle all day long loose fitting pull-on short jumpsuit or romper or play suit featuring elastic back and waistband adjustable removable straps a knotted or bow tie belt and pockets I named it after stunning tofu mozan geek one of my favorite places on the planet where my family and I created Dear memories man this girl gets around world traveler um, okay, so you've got your little band That goes into elastic in the back and then you have strap options of either straight straps crisscross them in the back And then you've got belt carriers for this, but it is a drop waist This is all sitting at the high hip Little pockets and this looks like to be an itty bitty little inseam. We'll see how that transfers to the actual pattern Sizes one through ten again Mid to lightweight woven such as 10 cell twill, broadcloth, chambray, linen, seersucker, shirting um We'll work best with the summer jumpsuit Element of drape as an elegant touch and a touch of stretch may add additional comfort, but it's not required okay oh and the notions Wide braided elastic wide non-roll elastic one for the waistband one for the back six buttons that is to make the straps, uh removable which I wouldn't make mine removable. I would make mine permanent, but feasible interfacing and coordinating thread as well all right, so this is it It's kind of like a bandeau. You remember you remember those from like the early 2000s Where it's kind of like ruched through here But this is staying up somehow. So i'm not sure how that is being achieved Here's the back with the elastic back your big wide belt carriers That is what her like pattern covers look like. That's really pretty More of her crawling on the rocks. Here's her having some tea Oh, so Part of the elastic wraps around to the front. Is that what i'm seeing? Something is creating this little situation and then this actually genuinely curves up and somehow stays in place Maybe there's elastic in here in this part too. I don't I don't know how this is kind of happening But it is and you can see the drop waist sitting at her high hip and the inseam looks to be about I don't know two inches maybe The proportions are interesting. This is very long and this is very short um So I don't know does it make you look taller? Does it make you look shorter? We need like a full view from the front in order to tell which I don't think we're gonna get um There it is after she's come off the rocks and just kind of casually thrown it on the floor next to her sunglasses and magazine Oh, but here's the inseam for sure like two inches anybody inseam And then here she is looking over the rocks again So yeah drop wastes are not for me. Um Me neither is strapless. So I don't know that I would pick this one up but Looks good on her Here is a bikini pattern again. We're gonna skip over this just simply because I don't know how to review bikinis I don't know how they're supposed to fit. I don't know what's good about them And what's not like I've never made my own swimsuit. So then we have the super basic tank top You can get this for free somehow. Um, oh here we go for email subscribers So I think at the bottom like the foot it the footer of her thing Yeah, you can put your info in here and get this for free But it is just a super basic tank um All seasons climates belongs in every handmade wardrobe Striped or spotted version to wear with your gathered skirts cutoffs in the summer a solid version to wear under sweaters in the winter Nice lightweight tighter knit and wear it as an undershirt for bra free days And then use the scraps to make matching underpants It is only the size one through ten.  That's really cool Yeah, I'd love a good kit. Oh, here's some more here are the colors, right? That's fun I love that mushroom color Yeah, that's a great way to take all the guesswork out of everything. You don't need to worry about sourcing anything She's got your thread and your needle and your um fabric and pattern and then this is the Bikini and the romper bundle So those are some fun like you're going on vacation. You could just get that one and make those two things So that's half moon atelier. What do we think? I think she really lived up to the idea of sort of the basic buildable wardrobe Very happy to see her most recent patterns being as inclusive as they are I really do hope that She will retroactively go back to some of these. I'd love to make this ballet top for example Or the dress Even the wrap dress I think is really stunning. So would love to know your thoughts on This collection if you've ever sewn one of their patterns before I love hearing from you as well because you know, you Have experienced it through and through so please leave a comment to let us know how that went what you thought You know, all those good things, but that is going to do it for me today I have last week's first impression friday linked here in the end slate So click on that if you want to have a little bin stash. Otherwise, I'll see you all very soon. Bye


Yeah, really living a beautiful place. Thank you. I put in time for this game. Look, this didn't happen naturally I spent two weeks in the patio setting this up, right? It takes time to Make your space Create what you love, right? Put the time in Sometimes the time in requires multiple years of studying and learning and doing before you can really Nail something down. So that's just the way it is. That's life. That's the ride Some people want things instantly doesn't instant instant instant gratification is what corporation is a centralized government And propagandists try to sell people. That's not real life.


And now it's my pleasure to introduce to you Sally Ferguson. Sally Ferguson is an assistant professor of midwifery at the University of Canberra in Australia. She has been in midwife since 1986 and was part of the original midwifery team at the birth center of the Canberra hospital. Her passion for midwifery is obvious as you go, as you will see. And she's speaking to us today about salutogenesis in midwifery. So no further ado, I turn it over to you, Sally. Thank you, Lorraine. And thank you everyone for having me. You may want to turn up your microphone just a little bit, Sally. You can just adjust. Click on the little icon, the little down arrow next to your microphone and adjust your microphone volume. Is that better? They're much better. There you go. Okay, okay. All right, so just tell me throughout if I need to raise my voice a bit. All right, the aim of my presentation is to explain salutogenesis to those of you who aren't familiar with the idea and continue to establish its relevance for midwifery because salutogenesis and midwifery fit beautifully together. I'm doing a PhD on salutogenesis and childbearing, so I'm absolutely immersed in it and I'm beginning to... So I hope that I can help you to understand and motivate you to think about salutogenesis in your midwifery. So to help us to understand salutogenesis, I'd like to introduce you to Aaron Antonofsky. Aaron Antonofsky is an Israeli medical sociologist who created the concept. And Antonofsky would tell you that salutogenesis is a concept focusing on discovering the causes of health rather than the causes of illness. So as a medical sociologist, it annoyed Antonofsky that pathogenesis was used to frame health promotion. He did not understand, as we don't understand, why that would be the case, as we all know that health is not just... So he, Antonofsky, wanted to create a health promotion framework, something that would rival pathogenesis. And he started his work with Holocaust survivors and thought that he would find a lot of pathology when he looked at these people and that there was a particular bunch of people he found who not only survived the Holocaust, but they thrived. So he decided that they must have had that promotion. So that started him thinking of this group fascinated him and he did 51 interviews with them to try and work out what exactly it was that they could say well. And in the end, years and years later, in the end, he came up with the concept of sense of coherence. So Antonofsky would say that those people who thrived in that setting had strong sense of coherence. And sense of coherence is the working unit of salutogenesis. So they go together. And we'll talk about salutogenesis in it. But before we do that, let's create the relevant free. So as you know, as I know, and he is sued down, tells us that maternity services are currently rooted in pathology. You know that, the tertiary service. In tertiary maternity services, we love to focus on risk, don't we? We love to categorize women in relation to their risk.  Down says, and Antonofsky said, if risk is emphasised and health is the emphasised, then you end up with a risk-focused maternity service where you have soaring labour intervention rates and soaring therapy. Down says, and Antonofsky say, and other people know from psychology that... Sally, if I could just interrupt you for a moment.  Is it? How is that? That's much better. Just keep your microphone whatever that is. Alright. And interrupt me again if it goes away. So what we're talking about is that you get what you emphasise in life and in maternity services. So if you're going to emphasise risk, then that's exactly what you're going to get. And in normal childbirth, down tells us that our...in soaring labour intervention rates and our soaring caesarean section rates are related to the fact that we are driven by pathogenesis and we are emphasising risk. You might not know that Australian caesarean section rates are increasing a percentage point a year and spontaneous vaginal birth rates are going down a percentage point a year. So if we keep going like this, in 12 years we cross over and we have more caesarean section in Australia than normal birth. So that's such a scary idea. Pathogenesis is not working for our maternity services and we need another way to look at the world where we emphasise and create the normal. And that's why midwives do so beautifully. They create the normal and that's what we're meant to be doing. Salyutogenesis offers the midwife so much. And Antonoski would say, why not look at a person's health factors rather than their risk factors? And that's what Salyutogenesis invites us to do. It invites us to look at a woman's health factors. If we get what we emphasise then that's what we need to be doing.  But what it does mean is that in the equation you have the fact that she is a well woman having a well baby. She's supported by a midwife that she knows and loves, that she has a doula, that she has a lovely partner, that she will have continuous support in labour, that she's spectacularly birthed her four kilo baby girl two years ago. These are all things that need to be in that equation when we're providing care to Margot so that we balance risk, health and all the factors. Francis Day-Sturk who we've just heard from so eloquently now and Louise Palmer talk about Salyutogenic birth. There are two of only a few authors that are talking about Salyutogenesis in relation to childbearing and they emphasise the midwife's role in increasing a woman's sense of coherence and ultimately their childbearing health. Sinclair and Stockdale do the same. They say that Salyutogenesis offers midwives an opportunity to positively influence public health by empowering and motivating women to confidently take control of their childbearing. Isn't that beautiful? Salyutogenesis offers midwives an opportunity to positively influence public health by empowering and motivating women to confidently take control of their childbearing. And so this would occur through the enhancement of the Salyuto concept of sense of coherence. That's the essence that Antonofsky found with the Holocaust survivors. So let's talk about Sinclair. So this woman is driving my PhD and she's a hard task master. She represents all the women that I've ever cared for as a midwife who are easily able to tap into their birthing zone and they just go on to birth in the most spectacular way.  You're just going to be being with her. So remember Antonofsky's Holocaust survivors. Well this woman represents them for me. So this woman I knew had the essence that health promoting that I wanted to think about in relation to those dreadful. What is it that this woman knows that other women don't know? What can she teach other women? What can she teach midwives? So if you have strong sense of coherence and I believe that that's what this woman has then you see your world or the hard thing that you're doing as comprehensive. So this woman for childbearing makes sense. She understands what she's doing that there is a manageability component so she believes that she can do this hard thing. She believes that she either has the resources or can realise the resource with their potential. She can go and seek out midwifery care. She can go and do all the things she needs to do to get the support that she needs to manage these hard things. And the best bit is the meaningfulness. Because that is what Stockdale and Sinclair are talking about. That's the active component. That's the motivational aspect. So this woman clearly childbearing has meaning for her and value for her. She's motivated if she to be able to tackle her hard things. So it creates a sort of... So she's motivated enough. She understands the concept. She can rally her existing essential resources but what that creates is a sort of optimist. Which is just lovely. So a lovely optimist which to work and think about your work. So Salute Genesis Literature Review. So as we just said, Sensor Coherence is the working unit of Salute Genesis. So let's just go back and see what they say about Salute Genesis in the literature. So Salute Genesis has become an important health promoting concept in Europe and especially in Scandinavia. And there's thousands of studies on Salute Genesis and sense of coherence. And generally speaking, if you have strong sense of coherence, you have better physical health. That is you have less chronic disease, less diabetes, less cancer. You have better emotional health. That is you have less depression, less anxiety and less post-traumatic stress disorder amongst us. You have better health behaviors.  And a systematic review by Ericsson and Lindstrom in 2006 concluded that strong sense of coherence leads to better health, especially emotional health. So there's thousands of articles on Salute Genesis and sense of coherence on general health, but only I could only find 17 on childbearing. Let me tell you about that. I'm just about to publish this literature review on sense of coherence and childbearing. And what I found was women with low sense of coherence, and this gets measured on Antonovsky's Orientation to Life questionnaire. He devised a 29.113. Most people use the 13.113. So women with low sense of coherence. Can you hear me? That all right? Your microphone nice and stable, please. Okay, sorry, sorry. So women with low sense of coherence experience more premature labour. They smoke, they're more likely to smoke in a pregnancy and beyond. They claim to be dissatisfied with their partners. They rate their baby as more fractious. They experience low emotional and physical well-being and more major life worry. They have more stress and depressive symptoms and if you ask them in a pregnancy they would say that they want to have a caesarean section for their birth. Women with high sense of coherence have more uncomplicated birth. They choose more home birth. They have greater well-being in pregnancy. They have less post-traumatic stress disorder and less depression after miscarriage. And if you ask them in a pregnancy they would say that they want more, they would like to have a normal birth. So that's what the research says about sense of coherence in relation to childbearing. And the best bit, otherwise all of this would be a waste of time, there's also research that says that we can grow someone's sense of coherence and improve their health. So we don't know too much about it but what we do know from the literature is music therapy increases sense of coherence. Support, education and Marilyn Ferreur has just told us that mindfulness increases sense of coherence in a childbearing woman. They're very exciting ideas about the way that we could improve people's health by increasing their sense of coherence. So let's relate this back to salutogenic midwifery. So I think it's safe to say that good midwifery is already using a salutogenic perspective. Good midwifery probably does emphasise health as well as risk. And good midwifery probably is increasing a woman's sense of coherence. By increasing her comprehension of her childbearing, we're probably quite good at that, helping women to understand their childbearing. Increasing the manageability of her childbearing, good midwifery is good at that. Enabling women actually being a resource for her and helping her to find the other resources that are going to make for healthy childbearing. And I think the most important one is the meaningfulness. So I think good midwifery is motivational and it is creating energy and it is persuasive. And, you know, I talk about providing women with information and then standing back while they make a choice. Well, I think we could probably be a bit more persuasive than that, especially around normal birth, around breastfeeding, around immunisation. There are things that women could be persuaded. Birth is certainly good. Good midwifery is energising motivate. So using this approach, women would be encouraged to activate, emancipate and increase their perception of their existing and potential resources. Rogers says that. So isn't that beautiful? Using this approach, women would be encouraged to activate, emancipate and increase their perception of their existing potential resources. Good midwifery is probably. So one of the few salutogenic midwifery examples that are around is some work done by Stockdale and her friends in 2008. And Stockdale and others did salutogenic breastfeeding classes. So they did a randomised control trial where they compared the outcomes of the women who attended the salutogenic breastfeeding classes and compared them with women attending routine breastfeeding classes. They developed the salutopressfeeding classes to increase the comprehension, so to increase the women's sense of coherence by increasing her understanding of her breastfeeding, to increase her manageability of all her meaningfulness of her breastfeeding. So that is motivating her to want to breastfeed, and in that research they provide some beautiful motivational theory that it was really lovely and simple and easy to understand. And they explained that you can motivate someone by increasing the value of the thing as well as increasing the woman's expectancy of success. So if you want to motivate someone to breastfeed, what you do is increase the value of it for them but also increase their expectancy of success. So that's what the salutogenic breastfeeding classes, that's the way they were designed. Let me briefly tell you what they did. So the salutogenic concept was, one of them anyway, was presenting the most common breastfeeding challenges as normal. And so they called them normal challenges. They provided a booklet for not if but when challenges. So if a woman did end up with sore nipples, they didn't even talk about it too much in the class. They just said, if you do end up, and when you do end up with your sore nipples, go and have a read of page 9 and it'll explain to you. So it didn't undermine women's confidence when they did come up against challenges of breastfeeding and the findings of that study were that it increased the maternal confidence, it increased their sense of support, so they felt more supported and it increased breastfeeding duration. So that's a beautiful example of salutogenic midwifery. So what we need is more research around sense of coherence and childbearing. I could only find 17 studies that related to that, but it does look promising. It looks really promising for healthy childbearing, especially in relation to our birthing statistics, those dreadful statistics that we're going back with in terms of our normal birth rates. But we need more research. My PhD research asks the question, how does a woman's sense of coherence affect her birth choices and outcomes? And I'm about halfway through collecting the data for that. And I don't know if you're allowed to hope when you are doing a PhD, but I do, and I am hoping that a woman with strong sense of coherence does make different birth choices and she does have more straightforward birth. And if we know that, then we can take the next steps, which are having salutogenic midwifery that raises women's sense of coherence and hopefully improves their childbearing, their ability to have straightforward childbearing. So there's more research needed in every area. So to close, I would just like to talk to you about my hopes. That is that salutogenesis and the raising of a woman's sense of coherence could become core business for midwifery business. Imagine if antinatal education was framed in salutogenesis. Imagine if every woman going through routine antinatal education came out the other side, empowered and motivated to confidently take control of their childbearing. I think we would see that that would make the world of difference and that we could make some inroads into those dreadful statistics. So that's the list of my references. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for listening to me. Does anybody have any questions for me? Are you there, Lorraine? Hi, it's Deborah. I think we might be having a technical difficulty with Lorraine. So I'll just facilitate the questions for Sally. And I'm using Sally's mic, so it looks like Sally's talking here. So thank you, Sally. I always, always really enjoy Sally's presentations that just, you know, midwifery so well. And I think she's, you know, touching on a subject that can be useful to all of us. So I'll take the questions and I'll hand over to Sally for some answers. Oh hi, Lorraine. Do you want to step back in? Sure thing, no problem. There's some great questions popping in here. Sorry about that, everyone. I live in rural Nova Scotia and sometimes it doesn't like the internet. So here's the first question from Mel. Mel asks, would midwives picking up poor sense of coherence in women in early pregnancy indicate, highlight possible mental health needs in late pregnancy or after birth? That's a very good question. Yes. There certainly is a correlation between low sense of coherence and scoring high on depression scoring. So women with low sense of coherence do experience more depression anxiety. So there is definitely a connection. We were to provide the sense of coherence scale to women like we do the depression scale. Okay, never mind, fine. Can you hear me? So it may be possible, it may be possible to, I mean one of my hopes would be that we use the sense of coherence now during pregnancy. So we do locate that woman who is likely to experience less straightforward birth and perhaps more emotional health needs. And we can locate her and we can add support and love and we can maybe raise her sense of coherence and improve her outcome by doing that. Thank you. Now we have a question from Cecilia. And Cecilia, do you have any idea or do you have an idea of ways to work practice with salutagenesis thought and action into the student experience? Yes, I don't think that would be very different to how you incorporated into any experience. So the student experience would really just be understanding salutagenesis, the concept, understanding what sense of coherence means and being clear about wanting to raise it with women and with people. So wanting to increase the woman's comprehension, wanting to increase her manageability, and that's what you're doing as a student as well, you're increasing her manageability, adding another resource. And motivating her to want normal birth, straightforward birth, increasing the value of it and increasing her obstacles.  So it's actually stuff that we are, or good midwifery is doing. Great, thank you. Now, let me see here. So Tammy asks if you're able to offer us where you can find the breastfeeding booklet. Is that in your references here? It is, yes. So it's the 2008. So the Feasibility Study to Test Design of Breastfeeding, the reference book is there. Great, thank you. I'm not sure the booklet is there, but you could contact the... Good, okay. And lots of really good comments in here about taking that positive perspective. Are there any other questions that people would like to put into chat? Checking to make sure I haven't missed any. I see typing. You never know. Maybe there's some more questions coming. We still have a bit of time, so there's lots of time for questions if you have any. There, Deb has shared a link to a self-test on coherence. That sounds like a good one. There we go. Chris has asked a question. Is there a way to do a crash course on cellutogenic principles? I have only one day to do our whole childbirth ed course and the time is so limited. Well, the place that I started was... Bergstrom and Lindstrom have written a little booklet called The Hitchhiker's Guide to Cellutogenic. So I suggest that you start there. It's about 100 pages. It's really easy to read and it just has the basic principles. And so it's pulled together. Most of Antonoski's work into this booklet. So The Hitchhiker's Guide to Cellutogenesis, it's called, and the author is Bergstrom and Lindstrom. I hope that helps. Good luck with doing that. Does anyone else have any questions? There's one from Allie. She asks, you mentioned the Maryland four-year paper. Which one were you talking about? It's the latest one, Allie. So the 2014 one. I can't remember what it's called, but there's some work in there on sensor coherence and mindfulness. Sorry, I shouldn't know. Anything, so you never know. There might be some more there. And Denise asks if you could add it to your reference. I will. Yes, of course. Deb asks, are you familiar with the concepts of centering pregnancy or prenatal pregnancy? I am, yes. And I would imagine that centering pregnancy, even though they may not know, it's based that work on cellutogenesis. So I think compared to routine antinatal education that centering probably does use the cellutogenic. Deb Davis has added a link to Sally's article that has a structured literature review for anyone who's interested. That's what that link is there. And Deb Pudderborough asks, do you feel that this system helps promote these concepts? Which concepts, so the centering pregnancy, do they promote the concepts? Absolutely. I think that's exactly what centering does and that's why it makes a difference. I think that it provides good information. I think it does motivate women and I think that it does increase their manageability. And I think it's being in those lovely small groups where the women drive the business that makes for much more effective learning and probably better. And I know centering has really good outcomes compared. Yes, I think Deb, the locus of control, that's a really interesting point. There's not much about on relating locus of control to cellutogenesis, but there should be. So I agree. I think probably what would cellutogenic midwifery would be doing would be moving someone from extrinsic to intrinsic locus of control. I think that's exactly right because that takes a motivational leap to do that, to move from taking control of things. That's a real... More links from Deb Davis. Thank you, Deb. Denise Hind asks, when you talked about support, would you see the need for first-time women to mix with others who've had a positive birth experience rather than only be with other women? I think that's a really good point that we need to be careful about the way that we design with the care in it. Women are supported by other women. I think probably they're better supported by other women sometimes than they are by midwifery. So really harnessing those women with birth experience and using the support of other women. That's a cellutogenic idea and could be well incorporated into any aspect of midwifery, midwifery, anti-natal edgy. Perfect. Yes, I'm surprised too, Kate, but there are lots of people... There are some people talking about it, but we need more people to talk about it because it has so much to offer the profession. Allie asks, Denise is just commenting on something that Denise said about the benefit of centering pregnancy. So Allie's saying that Denise is... that is the benefit of centering pregnancy. We're both multi-climate, share and learn together, and I completely agree with that. That's a wonderful model. We've got about three more minutes for questions, everyone. So if you've been putting off, putting one in the chat, do it now. But Denise says, here in New Zealand, the government has been funding only classes for primates, and generally only they seek classes. Yes, I think that is... Generally speaking, it is the primate that attends the anti-natal classes. But we could... I know in Australia that women... Multis might do just a one-off, a fresher sort of a class, but no matter who the classes are designed for, I think we could use these primates so easily, and in good midwifery work, they probably already are. The Tabbathas saying, doula and maternity consumer representatives often do well at supporting and engaging with women, particularly with regards to informed decision making. And I agree with that, and I think we could probably argue that there's a cell-utogenic component of that that doula and maternity consumer representatives are there for the woman, employed by the woman, for the woman to provide her with information to increase her manageability at exactly what they were doing. And it clearly already has meaning for the woman to be employing these people, and that they would still come on a national level. The Janine is saying, it is often mulled tips who seek out classes such as hypnobirthing, which aligns very well with this. And I think that's right, Janine. I think that I know a lot about hypnobirthing, but I imagine it's about motivating people and enabling and encouraging self-belief in their abilities, and exactly what Stockdale says, encourage people to confidently take control of their childbearing. That's all being able to tap into their ability. Deb's put up the original questionnaire by Antonos Kic. That's a wonderful point by Denise. That BFHI's 10 steps encourages promotion of breastfeeding support groups. So midwives need to encourage women to attend local home birth groups and hear about non-medical experience. That's a good... I think we could have, you know, normal birth hospital initiative or some sort of initiative where we promote normal birth and promote breastfeeding. That could use itself. Last question to Hiromi. I'm just letting you know that there's women getting together and giving birth without doctors, but doctors do not like the idea. But is that part of women's rights issues or not? I'm not sure that's a question for me, but I'll have a go at answering it anyway. So let me just read the question again. I'm just letting you know that there are women getting together and giving birth without doctors. Doctors do not like the idea. But is that part of women's rights issues or not? So of course, you know, women can make choices about the way that they have their babies. We know that if women have their babies with midwives, then they are going to have a better outcome, especially if they know and love their midwives. So it's definitely a woman's right to choose where she... who is with her when she has her baby and where she is. And on that note, I just want to say thank you very much, Sally. It was a really, really interesting and informative presentation. So could we all give Sally a big round of applause, and then we're going to be setting up for our next presentation. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, Lorraine, and thank you, everybody. Lots of applause coming in for you. And our next speaker is Sarah Ward. So we'll take us about a 10-minute break.