ink the like I agree. It's an eight go treks offensive. It's ridiculous how like it's not that again I think sometimes when I say this people feel like People feel like I'm saying oh he insta wins every game he's in or there's no counterplay against him That's not what we're saying. It's just he is punching too far above his weight like it's just I mean, you know That's that's it. He just is too efficient. I don't know how you prima fascia think otherwise, right? Yeah, um, so yeah, I agree get him out of hunters of heartlands. That's number one He shouldn't ever be able to be taken in that battalion. It's clearly not intended for him And to well and give him if you're gonna do that just give him the leader keyword So that way I can score him on the The places of our old new places of arcane power because that's one of the Oh You can't score on that one, right? So, yeah, I mean he's he needs to be somewhere between 500 and 550 I don't know exactly what the right number is do your calculations figure it out. It's somewhere in that range But it's higher than 535 or 435. I know that for darn sure Yeah So, okay. I'm also at an eight. I completely agree with you both of your ratings Marathi Points we're okay. So one through 10 paul. Where you at? um seven Not as important as go trek, but she needs to go up She does too much And especially it depends on the ring. Is it ring two or in one? And now she's officially ready to again so I still say seven it's not the most important thing in the game, but abstain Only one army could take her Tyler take put the number down. You know what it is I'm joking Yeah, it's let's see It's it's seven to eight It's probably at least an eight the minus two rend is uh, is a big deal I mean, we've talked a lot about this how If you had mine razor The light switch was on if you didn't a lot of cases it's off And you're not sending her in because she's just gonna bounce and she's gonna take three wounds And you never want to have her taking three wounds in your turn. You can control that all of sequel What if you keep the points the same but she loses her? Shoot or fight in the hero phase thing Would you take that? Oh, yeah, that would be an enormous change. Yeah, she yeah, I think she definitely like I'd be fine with her at her Points if she loved that or if she lost that. Yeah, she lost that. Yeah, definitely Would she be worth so I think she's 660 right now. Would she be worth that? Yeah, she'd be on the expensive side of what was worth it because she's still a super unique tech piece Right, but she would she would that would inadvertently also balance bow snakes out if you made that change Yeah Or if you restricted her command ability to like once again, she can do this thing or something like that again I would I would be for that right like there's there's other ways you could do it But all of these things have some kind of like I'm not we're we're gonna talk about how we fix this Just a moment. I actually have another slide for what the kinds of things we want to see So that's why I'm just trying to test like how bad is this? We'll talk fixes in just a second. So you're like what you said seven or eight Yeah, seven seven eight I do I do think it's a big deal that she's got the minus two run back and she is definitely too efficient But again, it's like we discussed last time. We're not talking about an enormous point increase But she does need a point increase. Yeah, I'm gonna seven on her. She's not as offensive as go direct to me I agree, but like She's Too low by like she's just too low. I mean that's again, it's just sort of obvious LRL fox movement Uh What's your number paul? The fact that the foxes are immune to melee I guess a six. I've I've only played against a single fox before And so I think if I played against a quad fox, I would be telling you a different number, but Fair enough Tyler Yeah, let's see Probably I feel like we're giving boring answers here, but all the same. Yeah, it's around a seven like I do think it's an enormous Example of non-play experience negative play experience That you can have a melee army that just can't do a damn thing to these things. It's stupid That's a 24 inch movement is is bad, but the The the move in the shooting phase is where every shooting phase is worse even if it was just Not in the enemy shooting phase. I think that would take away a lot of the feel-bats sure Hey, I mean I like hold on. Hey, these deathguards said they're not that immune to melee. You can still get them I would like for you to chart me out the way that you catch these guys in melee under a reasonable Circumstances that doesn't include surrounding them with your entire army All circumstances. Yes. I would love to know. I like I'm not doubting you I'm saying type that out the comments, buddy. You can write me a novel I want to know how you catch them because any smart player should move them 15 inches away from your army in the end of your shooting phase every time Yeah, and guys, I get it like There's an argument. Maybe the foxes are a little too high in a in a vacuum severeth There's there's, you know, they're not Destroying the scene that you know, even the fox spam list is doing well I've seen it ran by good players like joe crier and it's doing very well All that to me is just beside the points like These goes back to arguments we made on the show Tom and vence have made over the years like that doesn't matter It's just the fact that you have armies in this game that cannot do anything against them And it's a terrible play experience If you're an iron jaws or you know, whatever you might be that's a pure melee army So sort of like it's a prima facie argument. That's just bad design Allowing them move in the at the end. What could that just to play devil's advocate couldn't That just say well, if you don't have any shooting or magic mortals in your army, then That's your own fault for being too focused on one Build type Yeah, potentially, I mean, I guess except for like sure. What was my shooting in magic option in corn? Sure, what was my shooting in magic option in in nergal My shooting in magic option in beasts my shooting in magic option in night haunt My shooting in magic option in slanesh my shooting in magic option in iron jaws You know, that's only like a quarter of the army And you know, like I I saw veto said iron jaws can because they can charge in the hero phase No, they can't and again because that assumes that the fox player is stupid enough to move up to be within range there Like they have the bow range They're just going to not be that close Right at the point where you could charge them in your hero phase Like yeah, you can charge in their face, but you're not going to be in range Yes, it is possible But the player will just change the way they play because their bows have decent range Right, they don't need to be that close. They'll sit at 11 inches or 12 inches. They can still easily shoot you right And then they'll just And then Like okay, I'll move in the hero phase. Okay, cool. You can move up to three inches Roll up. Sure. I'll let you go ahead mighty destroyers. Try to charge me roll that 11 Right with your plus one to charge knock yourself out, right? If you get them, you got it. Congratulations, right?  That's that's the challenge there Like I said, I haven't looked closely at the foxes and this is like so if we If they were written the right way where they cannot move in the enemy shooting phase How much does that change their playability? Like how much are they Banking on that right now to be playable at all if that's the case then maybe the points should go down I don't know. I haven't looked that closely at them Do they still get to do the pile away or is that old battalion? No, they still get to pile away.  That wasn't Relying on the battalion.  I saw what you wrote I just don't buy it because again like there's just not enough space and there's not enough I don't know what that is like I've played against the foxes and I've never caught one in melee Even like actively trying Um, like they move 15 inches away from you and there's always somewhere to go Their base isn't that big Yeah Yeah, I killed one in melee only because he wanted to Come back because he he he had to fight. He had to fight my unit to get him off an objective So right and they don't do a lot of damage. That's absolutely true Like the regular foxes are neg two rend d three damage on four shots the the Severeth is neg three rend four shots d three damage each, right? and You know like and then they have a move over you mortal wounds thing um They You know, they They're not like they're they're chip damage for the most part. They can't assassinate characters quite well Because they have a very good hit and wound Um, yeah, I mean, I'll give you my honest answer here Uh, it's a nine for me I want to see in the future and it's not because it's broke as a joke or or because it wins I don't think any of that.  It's not it's not as though It's some broke as a joke thing. It's not right because they aren't super damaging. They are mostly annoying I think their points are relatively fine and well balanced, right? I just think that type of weird situation shouldn't exist It is if I work like when we did the npe show 72 of the respondents said that the number one way they define npe is when When a rule takes away interactivity Hmm, right And I can't think of a less interactive way to play than the way the foxes play It literally takes away almost all counterplay It says if you don't have this very specific thing You cannot kill this unit or counterplay it And I just find that to be a bad experience That's what it comes down to so no, I don't think they're overtly powerful I'm not asking for the FAQ because I think they're overtly powerful Again, I played against the foxes a couple times, you know, and I won more of those games than I lost right Not that I should be like the baseline judge I'm just saying I think it's a bad thing that shouldn't exist because it's just taking the fun out of the game And it is a negative play experience defined Like if I like if I looked up negative play experience, it would just be a picture of these guys Yeah, it's me It's it is I mean it it's the one that stands out the most over the six years of this game to be honest Right. I mean that that could be recency bias. I mean, there's been a lot of nonsense over the years But yeah, I played the spam with iron gels and I played one I played severth only with iron gels and I mean, they were both just it's just it's done Yeah, it's just it's just a feel bad for no reason. It doesn't need to be like that Right. So Yeah, there you go That's it. That's that's sort of why it's a nine for me, right? Because again, it's not necessarily like all these are so the first two were so were a power question This is just a it's a bad play expectation. That's all Um, Schrodinger's battle line one through 10. How quick does this need to be answered? I'll give it a three Okay, not a big deal to me. I don't know. I guess because I don't play The army's the coalition units. Sure. It's like I don't really care, but I guess clarify it But it's not a big deal to me. Sure Tyler Yeah, I kind of middle of the road and like maybe a five I mean, it's it's only one of those that would like to see clarified, but I'm not sure if it's having an outsized impact that it's not been clarified. Mm-hmm. Yep Uh 10 answer this now. This is silly. It wasn't answered already. I know it was asked Why isn't this answered? Why do I have a basic question about how many models I can take in a unit? Yeah, that is a fundamental thing. Again, there's nothing broken about this. There's nothing bad about it. It just Shouldn't exist Just give an answer. There's no there's no greater things that need to be considered here Right. This is like well you because you got go track. You're like, well, we don't want to make him broken But we want people to still use him. He's a really fun cool narrative character And you know a lot of people really have love for him. So we got to take a gentle hand with him Okay, I understand you want to take some time to think about how you fix go track like I'm good with that This isn't one of those things. Just give an answer Just type it out man How hard can this one be? Just it is or it isn't I like Open the box. Is there a dead cat in there or not? I don't know right Uh save stacking one through 10 poll 10 Tyler Oh goodness As you know, I've had some of two minds about this which will come out here tonight So Seven Yeah, I'm gonna go for I'm gonna go for an eight But this one's really interesting and Paul prepared some awesome data before the show We're gonna dive into this one. I am excited about this Uh, yeah, I'm gonna solid eight on this one I think it's interesting when it matters and when it doesn't and there's all sorts of nuance to this conversation Yeah, but it's I'm high like it's one of my highest ones I just think there's a lot of implications and there's one thing that we'll talk about when we get to the how to fix this stuff Yeah, um, that is that it's going to be a challenge I see a lot of people like spamming the comments with 10s and 11s I get where you're coming from because this annoys the living they have played in immortal care Right. Yeah, this this one annoys the bejesus out of me as well. So like I get that answer I'm not I like if you said 10 to this and it provoked that kind of response. Hey, man I get it, but there are some consequences that we need to think through You know, we'll talk about those um cogs Cogs and its current form paul eight I mean, there's two there's two armies or three armies that hollow heart zinch and lumenath and So it doesn't affect every part of the thing, but Just make it where three you pick three units that are within 12 instead of saying all units or one or whatever Something some number define the number Put a number on it. Just don't let it be 12 Not everybody in the army, right This feels so easy. Yes Tyler Yeah, run a nine. Yeah, it's it's incredibly dumb and in zinch and a couple of others, but yeah Like I would love to have the points in my iron jaws list to throw this in so that I can have another spell cast with just one Weird knob and use it, you know generally seemingly the way that it's intended. Yeah, you're getting a Yeah, you're getting a single extra spell for 45 points. Sounds great to me. Like that's good value in a lot of lists But unfortunately, that's not how it works Mancoba dad said zero, but I'm a hollow heart player. Yeah, that's fair. Get that Yeah, I'm a solid nine on this one as well. I just think cogs is horribly offensive And it either needs to like jack up a hundred points or set the number like you got you got a choice here I will talk about fixes at the end. Okay, and then sons of them What's what do we need to do to address them? I say seven I I still I see I see the stats we showed at the beginning and I know that there's people there's lots of lists that just can't handle that Can't because of whatever but I don't I don't think we have to break them. I just sure we just gotta figure out how to Reduce something on them either counting ass or wounds for Megas or man crushers. I don't know. Yep Tyler Yeah, that's I'd like to See where we are Like no major changes to the game. No safe stacking removal. See where we are in three four months So because to me it feels like we could be in a they could be More in line around that time frame So Six like I get it a lot of our as you just said Paul A number of armies struggle to pass the DPS checks the damage per second to get them off the board In enough time to where you've not been outscored. I get it like that. Yeah, that's that's the challenge right now You absolutely have to focus them down one at a time So if you're spreading your damage around don't do that Like kill one at a time all a sequel But yeah, I'd really be curious to see where we are with no major changes to the game in four or five months Yeah These guys I'm still coming to terms with this right But I mean my answer is I do think it's my answer is probably a five, but that's higher if they don't fix safe stacking That's gonna be my answer right because I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from Especially now that with the new battalions, you can have two megas who are spellcasters pretty easy sure So I have one of them with the five up save. Yeah, one of them's got amulet You got two guys was who couldn't potentially mystic shield if they you know like not I don't understand I can't both do it. I'm just saying like you have two different sources of mystic shield, right? Depending on where you need to be on the board and so on and so forth So that's challenging Like I just think they're Yeah, I mean they're they're too good. So one one that's not on the list that Tyler and I talked about is That I think is one of the key things is Measurement like Is within is within 12. Is that a cylinder or is that a bubble? Is it a sphere of within 12 because we're playing a 3d game? And they have all this stuff that they don't define whether it's a 2d measurement or 3d measurement And so there's all there's Lots of things throughout the game that it's not clear whether they intend it to be within three horizontally or within three You know in 3d space that kind of stuff three and 12. That's one that I would like to get cleared up Yeah, that's it. That would be a good cleanup. That's a nice. That's a nice shout out I don't know they like you're saying like there's a guy up on a building Does he measuring down and creating a little trying like a cone of his ability or are you measuring sort of flat out from him? Right, right. You're measuring from the base, but How do you sometimes it's how it's almost impossible to measure in three dimensionals with Yeah Yeah, I mean, I think essentially Paul. Yeah, you're just measuring the horizontal the flat horizontal plane But I can understand why Because I was thinking the opposite. So yeah, there you go. That's that nope. That shows why we probably need to answer Yeah, well, my reference point would be measuring two objectives from a vertical From a vertical height. Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Sure.  Yeah, that's I assume it's a cylinder, but We don't like I can't be touching the assuming is really not the same as As an answer ruling as as an army, you know as a way to play the game Everyone needs to have the same assumption. So yeah, that's fair. Yeah Yeah, no, it's good answer. That that is sort of an unclear thing. I'm with that. That's a good call All right. Now, let's look at some awesome math. Who's ready for math? Oh, yeah, math time with with paul Okay, so Paul I'm gonna let you handle this So this is the first slide you gave me which is save stacking math versus rent now I cut off the plus zero save because I had to make a schedule, right? Yeah, it's kind of a Plus one save plus two to save plus three to save walk us through kind of what this chart means and how we're supposed to read it Okay, so what I was trying to Think through was how you know, one of the questions was is save stacking bad and And explain how bad maybe it is. So basically I looked through and said The first the first three blocks are the top block is How many wounds that don't do damage? So if they're on a two up save you have zero rent, which is the left blue there Then one out of six gets through um So you can kind of see whenever you get then you move to a plus two save so you're Plus one ignoring your first trend plus three save plus one ignoring rent one and two So that this is just all kind of the groundwork for what we're going to talk in a little bit later But so then you multiply that out. So The second row is really looking at How many How much damage do you have to make them save against like wounds times damage? So let's say three three three saves at two damage each that would be six, right? So if I want to do one damage to somebody that's on a two up with zero rent I have to put six. I've got to get six damage through on average to do that right and it kind of You can see that all the way across and then the bottom one Is just ideas as an example if you've got 10 wounds if you're using no rent you need to get 60 Wound you have to hit hit and wound for 60 damage worth And assuming that they don't have a ward save or that you're not using mortal wounds or whatever But this is just kind of a basic you have to use 60 to get through that 10 wound character but what you'll start to see is With that's that's for a plus one to save but what you'll start to see is it starts getting ridiculous when you start looking at some of these Base three saves that we'll show you in a second. So that's kind of a primer there I think this is right, but I made it today. So Yep, math all look correct. Yeah, this is just kind of the base thing, right? The important part to understand here is the higher these saves go the more this six starts creeping out Right like down and over So like a three up save thing That has plus two to save Needs it takes six wounds again. We're assuming no re-rolls. No wards. No other things, right? So what that means is that if you're on a three up May save and you get plus two to save against neg one rend you're effectively ignoring that rend This is what we always talk about, right? Because then you still have to do six damage to get one through Right, and that's why we keep talking about neg one rend is not as valuable as it used to be because Almost anything important is going to be plus two save Most of the time right now the other thing I want to set the table for here real quick is in prep for the show Tyler and I were actually talking and we did a little review of how much neg three rend Is there in the game? Okay, because we always talk about like oh, you've just got to get some neg three rend and I was like Hold on a minute All right, how much actual neg three rend Is in the game? and the answer is Not a lot Okay, I'm guessing five or five percent Of a tax maybe oh god, it's not even close to that. It's it's definitely sub one percent Oh, really?  So like there's you know, there's a that army is a weird exception of actually quite a lot of neg three rend But a lot of neg three rend is existing on weird Monsters that aren't heroes that you probably weren't taking and happens to be on a wounds chart Like you understand saying they only have it and it's and it's like fives to wound or force force, you know Yeah, it'd be like So examples of this would be like the um The help hit abomination has a neg three rend attack The chimera has a neg three rend attack, but both of them are on wound charts, right? So they can lose that if they get wounded Right. Mm-hmm So um, and what we were looking for was like we started saying, okay Where is the neg three rend written on scroll and then where is the neg three rend where you can like Automatically trip into it. You know, I'm saying like you don't have to cast a spell or something that has interplay Like if it's a thing you can do where you just say that unit go Yeah, right Then we still counted it and the answer is some armies have none just zero Neg three rend it doesn't exist in in the force. Okay. I mean, I'm not talking to allies or anything I don't maybe that is a thing But in a lot of places it's like one scroll and it is often a sub optimal scroll Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There are notable exceptions So like iron jaws with the metal ripper if or if it still exists in three weeks Right as of right now um A state of kevin says keeper of secrets is rend three, right? It is not a state of kevin. It is not Kevin shalaxi is it's fine buddy. Yeah shalaxi has a single attack. This is the only neg three rend in slanesh Right, which is yes, you can get to neg three rend in slash Or sorry, the only neg three rend in slanesh is on shalaxi on her soul piercer attack, which is one attack Out of that thing. Wow Don't don't forget the neg five rend on old bolty. We didn't we absolutely thought considered that on a six to hit Yep, he's got he's got it on the six Um prince border. I has it. He's obviously a good one because he he's only on the charge But still border. I can get to neg three on the charge You know the um Aaron's got a good shout out here dirthu with date three per which we've talked a lot about With date three per yet one of the few examples of it in silvaneth, honestly like silvaneth is a pretty much Is basically bereft of neg three other than the day three per example, right? Yeah um And so like there's not a lot of neg three rend around now coach said but do those armies without rend three have Access to mortal wounds. I would guess they do. I wouldn't guess that coach I really wouldn't because rend three isn't distributed like that. It's not distributed in this sort of like obvious way Where it's like, oh, you're the high rend But more attacks people and you're the people who just can punch mortal wounds like sure some but not all my point is simply to say Neg three rend is pretty darn rare So when we look at that neg three rend line, it sometimes look like the situation isn't as bad But neg three rend is hen's teeth over here. Okay. It is not very common So that was just groundwork. It was important to to lay down Uh, I don't think lrl has anything past neg two. Uh, haiti severeth severeth's And severeth's bow is neg three rend as is altharion's. Yeah Yep, altharion also has it LRL does does damage. I thought they just only did mortals Exactly, that's an army that has almost no neg three rend, but does have plenty of mortals. So They're doing fine. They're doing fine. Yeah Uh, okay, so now we're talking about save stacking with normal units versus rend. So yeah, take us through through this one. Okay um So the first one Is all right. So the first one is really looking at Uh, so this is uh, like a something with the five up save six wound hero, you know Yep, your your standard crappy hero right buffing wizard Whatever hero. Yep. Isn't a slaughter priest five five up save six wounds. Isn't that what a slaughter priest is? I think so. Okay. Yeah, that's right um, so They're they're designed the game was built around them being squishy, right? They're a five up save And so, you know normal that first line is looking at normal So let's say you're doing a neg one rend against them It takes seven seven attack, you know seven damage needs to get to their save where they have to save against it For them to die their five wounds um, but you give them plus One save that goes to nine damage On the one neg one rend and you get them plus three save that goes to 12 damage. So now they're almost Twice as tanky is as they started out Still not The end of the world, you know, it's it's more but it it's something that you can chew through, right? Right. And so the the key with this let's I just want to reinforce this point When you can put a regular for this is like a bad hero Folks, okay, let's just be super clear here, right? Like this is a non defensive Utility hero on a five up save with six wounds. What's happening here mathematically Is that if you can push to Okay, the The plus one save where it's being retained over the rend right Then what happens is it doubles effectively, right the sort of amount of wounds. It's a very straight mathematical thing It's pretty obvious Right. So if there's also a ward in play in any way, suddenly you can take 14 16 wounds to bring down that that you know, normal hero right Yep okay So then the second one that we've got in the middle There is a regular three up save six wound hero. So more of a storm cast tanky tanky hero or You know Anywhere across the board. So when you they're looking at a three up Now let's look at that same example because I think neg one rend is probably more average what you tend to run into Instead of it taking 12 Damage to chew through their their saves It goes up to 18 with the plus one, which is a big significant thing But that goes to 36 with the plus three You know So or even if you're fighting them with something neg two rend right neg two rend should be like Really chewing through stuff. It goes from nine to an 18. So like doubles or triples their survivability And that's where I think you're starting to get into the realm of even something that's Should be easily killable You know six wound the three up save hero starts to turn into You've got to throw 600 points at them and a good good hammer to even kill that thing Now people will say mortal wounds. Yes, this isn't looking at mortal wounds. That's another part to the game and I think that's where we've Really the pendulum has gone too far in mortal wounds because they they're the answer to a lot of things Yeah, we don't want to make mortal wounds just the always out right because then all of a sudden the incentive is Going to be every they'll the only units that get taken are those that can do mortal wounds Armies that have more access to them become innately better They start propagating more wounds throughout the game and it's just like yeah, it just creates whack incentives, right left and right And and this is like the great example here. I've told the story before in previous weeks but you know my nomad hero and I Hosted the ever-chosen baron guard bouncing off of them Right because I save stacked him. It was just like yep The 600 point baron guard can't bring down my 100 point nomad prince What was the finest hour and all that defense or yeah, yeah, yeah, they were neg on rent, right? So, yeah, yeah All right, um, so then the third example here is looking at a normal battle line, right Four up save is kind of about average for a battle line There's some five up and three up about mixed but let's say four up save with 10 wounds Kind of the same thing against neg wonder in they go from Taken 15 to taken 30 15 to 20 which is a pretty big step up and then at like plus three they go to 30 or even if you're you know If you've got no rend it's not as big effect. That's why I kind of the The leaning now towards is what if with all the safe stacking why not do no rend or neg two rend neg one is kind of A little bit of a no man's land where it ends up not not being worth the extra point you have to pay for it All right, so then we're going to get on to the good stuff Let's get on to the good bad stuff the next slide Or any questions there talking points or no because now here's where we get into the real the real meat of it save stacking with god demigod units. Yes indeed So RK on you know I I in the monkey tournament. I fought him with Uh go trek I got into him. I was so excited.  I'm gonna win this game He was on a uh plus three save sometimes sometimes plus four.  So you talk they build the model around. Okay. Here's the normal You know if you want to kill this guy with Neg one rend. Let's look at the bottom there It takes 40 40 damage to get or your 40 damage to get through his 20 wounds You know, that's not undoable When you save stack to plus three Now that's 120 damage And don't forget he's healing about 15 times a game d3 So if you don't kill him and one one or two turns or double turn him and kill him He's gonna be at full health next time you fight him Yeah, and minimum you can kill is it is it automatic the from the mounts or does he have to roll the dice for the d3 He'll it's automatic from the mount. It's automatic. It's only It's automatic. So he's 2d3 than 1d3 than 2d3 than 1d3 than 2d3 than 1d3. Yeah, okay And so like You know so so and I ended up so then what I ran into is this third He was rerolling ones to save but I've also last night I watched a game where he was rerolling all saves to it's very easy It's just shield shield a fade like you're real. Yeah So rerolling ones are rerolling all saves Basically turns into the same thing when you're plus three because you're ignoring rent one and two And like you said almost nothing in the game has run three So do you see that number there six hundred and sixty six is how much damage you need to get through or Get through that that armor I think it's really 720 But anyway, I think I rounded one of the numbers up above but you know Unkillable that's that's that's what that is too regular damage And then that's not including that he's minus one to be hit or Real you know used to be real in sixes now now he's minus one to be hit or You know other stuff after you know Other ways that they can deal with damage. So that's one of the all let me I'll let me make chase this point here chase says The numbers need to be described more accurately. The number presented is the number of attacks that deal one damage each That's not the flat damage value needed. Yes. That's you're absolutely correct chase He's we're sort of assuming one damage attacks here Right, so this is a tax that you can multiply the attacks times the damage and it's kind of the same thing But yes Simplified, right? Yep. So yes the point is 600 700 Attacks dealing one damage or some combination of that amount of damage, right depending on the point is It's pretty simple math like one in 36 attacks gets through when you're on two of re-rolling ones, right? That's that's Very easy math And so it's 36 times 20, which is yes 720 is the number see I think it rounded funnily when you did out the excel But that doesn't matter It's insane Okay, like chase your your point of very fine wording is well taken but uh The the point is still the point still stands. We should never hit this number like it just isn't uh like it It's just unreasonable That something should be able to take 700 Attacks at rend two Okay for one damage and live Yeah, right that shouldn't be a thing yeah So so far of I'm 100 on board with some of these case specific examples that save stacking Is an utter nightmare And and we need to change And so it'll be interesting. We'll have to talk more about these generalized cases that paul you're getting into with your earlier slides Right with regard to save stacking. So I think the evidence is the evidence is abundantly clear it is An unacceptable problem that has to get addressed. But yeah with some of these specific examples with archon and I would actually put negash And some others At the top of the heap So anyway, yeah negash could reach these same numbers because he also has a re-roll ones to save right? Yeah So so he can actually achieve the same thing. Yeah Uh, yeah Go next one.  I sent like you sent 30 clan rats at him or Yeah, with like death frenzy and bonus to attack. Yeah, I did both I did both the clan rats and the zombies I put two different games back to back So so in this one I assumed best case where you're doing one damage each if you're fighting with a mega gargant or something Three damage six damage. He doesn't care about that at all So like this is best case If with no rend You need to get you need to get 71 Saves he needs to take 71 saves If if he's plus even just plus one to save Wow, and and if you've got neg two rend and He's plus one to save it's 35, but if he's plus three then that goes to 71 again And he's going to heal D3 Anytime that you damage him in the next hero phase if you don't kill him so I don't know he was just one of the outlier examples that I thought would be Yeah, I mean you really got to hit him with like super duper duper weight of dice All right, because again these are attacks that successfully hit and wounded So you have to resolve 71 50 attacks into him or how many saves does he had?  It's a dice game Right, but we're talking about sort of the modal averages here, right? That's the the point So Third example we've got here was that another one that I was interested in seeing what it looked like was mega gargant And this is assuming they don't have a five up after save But you know they go from look at that neg one rend again they go from 53 damage to 105 damage if you've got the mystic shield best day ever Um all defense going right There's just not a lot that can Give you that many saves worth. I mean they don't they take your you know, they're not like go trek He doesn't they don't ignore that Your rent your damage characteristic, but it's still a lot to chew through But that's that that's the dps check that we're talking every time we talk That is what it is. It says can you do If I have neg one rend can you do 70 damage Because that's what you need to do if you want to take them down and one One combat for right and that's just assuming they just use the plus one save like your traditional standard Fallout attack, right? Yeah, yep I think this is I think this math is so great poll because it really makes it real right when you see these kind of numbers here You're like, oh geez like when it makes the the wound translation into amount of successfully resolved attacks Right that deal damage.  I see now, right Uh, and it's just like yeah the It it you know, it really does drive at home the kind of mathematical averages that that are existing right now because of the save stacking Right And because I think a lot of people go into fights and they think I should be able to kill this Yeah, and and it's on the fly.  Yeah.  Sure, I mean, yep combination it helps but Eight mortal wounds doesn't cut it.  Yeah, you're exactly right It's 24 mortal wounds But that becomes something that's doable, right? Especially when combined with a few of the normal attacks will sneak through so on and so And so yeah, like curse is a bad day for go track. No, no doubt about that um That it does like curse pretty dramatically take changes the math against go track if you if you're surrounding him with a um Without like a high volume of attacks unit, right? Yep. That's sort of his ultimate nightmare Okay, let's talk about future priorities. Here we go. Let's bring this home gentlemen all right That was great by the way. Paul. Thank you for for doing all of that. That was really fantastic and I loved it Because it's just when you look at that math and you're like, oh 700 damage. Sure easy Like that All right, go track. Let's talk about options. We could put him up 100 points. We could limit his healing Right. There's there's things we could do with this guy. We could get him out of hunters of the heartlands You could not let him re-roll hits Sure Like he gets to re-roll all hits all wounds so he can fish for the mortals on the sixes. Yep Yeah, that's the funny part about what he used to fight archaeon because archaeon made him re-roll sixes previously So the appropriate way to play it against archaeon was to literally roll all your dice and then go Yeah, none of those roll the whole thing again Can I just do my second roll because of my first roll? I don't right.  I'm just rolling one time assume This is the second roll. Here we go. Yep Right, that's First roll didn't count straight in the second roll So, yeah, I mean what's what's what do you like as a solution for go track? Paul where where are you sitting? I think I think you you put them at like 550 to 580 points and People will the points kind of take you lose like a whole decent unit if you bring them from what you have right now So bring them up 100 points Uh, if you're going to limit his healing you better do it to everybody else. It's not fair to just Yeah, forget him if you're going to still let archaeon do He'll 20 times a game at d3 Yeah Yeah, I don't like the limit healing because to me that's an arbitrary incoherent choice. Why are we There's sort of a strange lack of her similitude, right? Like you understand why marathi can't heal because she's relying on the iron heart of kain, right? She has this magic eye and it creates that has tied her essence to immortality Right and so you could just sort of chip away at her before the heart gives way, right? Yeah Yeah, definitely take him out of hunters that should not be a thing And then yeah, I think paul you're right that, you know, he still seems reasonably attractive at 550 to me for what he can do in the game and Yeah, 530 550 somewhere in that range 535 80 580 might be a little too high for my taste, but yeah, I think those two changes I've been doing yeah, I'd say pulling from hunters definitely Um, I like I get the healing problem on him. It's certainly significant Um, I could so are you guys more worried about the hunters just where he doesn't get to do his Hunters lets him not get it roared because It's it's because he can go in hunters he'll get roared and like He's immune to roar and then hence he can always all out defense Which is always where you're all out defense because because normally I when I played him I didn't even all out defense him very much because You're not throwing 70 damage at me if you're not If I don't even need to do it unless you know, I'll say I'll spin it somewhere else I'll just heal sure three with the heroic recovery. So that was just my take I think it's weird that you can get in that but Yeah, give him a leader keyword that takes care of hunters. Absolutely Um, yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple different scroll changes you could do to him I'm not sure how much I love the limit healing for reasons you both said like it's it's weird I'm not sure what the versatility of it is. I'm sure we could construct something Right, like it could be like death seeker You know, he can he can't heal or he never heals more than one per per battle round or something like that Like I'm sure you could construct a fine enough narrative rule um I mean he is a slayer who's like sort of seeking after death kind of maybe I guess I don't know possibly So like maybe you could construct something around that. That's fine um But yeah, I think like his points should be like I said somewhere between 500 and 550 not to beat a dead horse, right? But it's it's clearly way too low now uh marathi 60 points up Allorial, I don't have it here, but allorial 30 points down That's that's all the way I I I cannot I cannot up marathi without lowering the cost of her sister Yeah I'd almost like to do to marathi would make it where She can only take Two damage a phase or something instead of a turn over the 40k thing I don't know how it works in 40k, but there are 40 there are 40k models that have the same basic rule as the iron heart of kane But theirs is all limited per phase Like the the um the satan in the in the negrons are like yeah Even even bumper bumper up to 20 wounds and then let her take two damage a phase or something that way She's still that lives about as long, but you have more chip damage you could do to her rather than just Her being an annoyance that you shouldn't even fight sometimes Yeah, and Playing her a lot. Yeah, I mean Benzino might take like a lot of armies have a way to chip damage her down And it's just you're on the clock and then You know are you as the doc player with her Doing your dentist to minimize taking the three in your turn because you can control that Yeah, are you are you retreating out most of the time? I don't know. I mean that's what I'm not sure Guess that you strategically play in it. See how how long you want her to survive, right? Yeah, yeah, there's you're picking at choosing your spots. You're not just outfilling with her round one Yeah, you're you're playing a longer game You're Focusing down a particular target for her to finish it off in the combat phase And then hopefully you don't have terrible dice rolls which can happen with her because you know relatively low number of dice So like yeah, there's these various things that you can do that you can make her Extra annoying that not everybody does but I think yeah in general my opinion is the simplest answer Is just to bump up her points. I don't think she should go up too much. Yeah 60 points seems pretty reasonable. So that'd be 720 Yeah, that that sounds about right to me. I mean people would love that number sure Okay, cool. Pearl the fox movement remove her from the enemy shooting phase done solved Yeah, like that's it. Yeah Easy Yep, agreed. Yeah, like it's just it's the easiest fix. Please stop this All right. Now, let's talk about the controversial one save stacking. That's a big question How do we fix this? right Well, I'm not I'm still not necessarily sold that we need to fix it. I again, I I'm 100 sold on case specific examples Arkya Nagash and so on The the generalized case, I mean, I think your data helps Paul to make a better case for it um I don't know guys like yeah, let's well, maybe we'll just I don't know if we want to get into trying to argue here Let's do this. Let's talk about what are the limits of this real quick, right? We've talked about the situations, but but it is important to talk about the other side of this this discussion, right? Yeah, so there is obviously a limit to how much you can save stack You can only all out defense once only one hero can be in best day ever and they you know, you can only do it once for hero Mystic shield Yeah, officially capped at one thing now some armies still have a lot of plus one saves They can swing around right like slaves of darkness. It's pretty egregious right now. Yeah, all right With Leviadon gives a plus one save bubble, right like there are there are items there, right? um and the The the you know, so like the question becomes Like so if you if you have the capability to engage Across their army like if you're fighting multiple points at once multiple units, it becomes very hard to protect uh, all of that Uh, and I'll come back to it. James treathers. I see you. Well, I'll come back to it. You're raising interesting points We'll come back to the box. That's all fine. You can raise your questions You can split your shots and yeah You can like shooting still like I never ran into save stacking that much as a problem until there ended up being just one unit I needed to remove and then it was like an unmovable problem Right and sometimes that is the case but like with all shooting army. I was just like Bang I would shoot one thing they'd use all at defense and I'd be like great now I target everything else in your army, right Anything that's not bonus Where and that's where neg one rend does still pay dividends right because when they're on normal saves This this came up. Tyler. You and I were talking I mentioned I watched re-rolling one's latest battle report which is like which was corn versus Phenetium, right? and they were You know, they were like fighting with Like a dozen units at once. Yeah, like there are whole armies that smashed into each other in the middle okay And so like save stacking was just not even present in that game Personally because one of the players was corn Right and so didn't have a lot of save stacking even as it was right. Yeah. Was was she involved too? Yeah, she was she was involved. He was playing Phenetium Obviously, but yeah, I know where that's going. She was involved. All right and so like The the point being is like in that case because they were fighting with just like their whole armies were all fighting at once Right, you just didn't see save stacking as a problem at all because it just it never came up There wasn't enough of it to go around everybody would like render was still applying as normal and life continued on in the game Felt completely reasonable Right in that case So I think there is this interesting but the but the reality is that's not often how a lot of play goes You're not often fighting with like 10 units at once.  You might have other threats around Right, but it's it's sort of hard to get at um, I think part of the equation is the which factions armies can readily get mystic shield off reliably and which can't so again as a Zinch player, I'm probably going to be getting mystic shield off the most of the time onto Archeon if he's there As an iron jaws player Maybe never getting mystic shield off Except maybe a turn one if I'm going first and I'm outside of a bind range With my weird enough shaman on the backboards and then I put it on a cabbage for it to potentially alpha or just whatever But yeah, like at that point I I'll probably maybe never get mystic shield off in the game again So it's irrelevant Anyway, I think that you know, there's definitely inequities in terms of mystic shield It's not always going to be on and these models. Yeah. Yeah, and again This is very this is as we've said something is very inequitous between armies, right? Because something like slaves of darkness has a million different plus one saves They can give out on prayers and abilities and just crazy things like things that don't aren't hard to To activate and and require no, you know, like it'd be very hard to stop them from being presence Right because like I saw Bain in the chat said like oh, well when best day ever is on it blocks all other command abilities Maybe that's a solution. Well, sure, but a lot of people don't sure then you that stops all out of defense It doesn't stop mystic shield. It doesn't stop oracular visions. It doesn't stop A prayer from the war shrine. It doesn't stop like, you know, whatever whatever, right? The many other ways they have to get at that They didn't need to use command abilities for any of that. They still got to plus three or four, right? And again, that's not all armies, but it is a thing that exists, right? Sylvaneth is another one that has like a lot of plus ones actually Yeah, I think really. Yeah Like one of the and I feel like it's more of an experiment Than saying that this is the way it has to be but and like iron realms. I'm doing Plus one is what you get doesn't matter how many You can't stack more than one and so we'll see how that I think that that can affect list building and Can change the game but hopefully for the better, but I'm not sure that it's The best way to do it, but it's one way to to try I like to try to see how it goes Yeah, I think it's very fair to yeah, Paul give it a shot My concern is it goes too far particularly out of the gates And yeah, especially in relation to the shooting problem, which Bench you have here But maybe yeah, Bench you want to start going through these options? Well, yeah I actually want to set up the shooting problem first before we talk about solutions So the shooting problem is this a lot of people talk about the the problem of shooting in in in the meta And I'm not saying there aren't some shooting armies that are still like You know problematic like I played an all shooting tempest iron me that really like Was like shots shots shot shots shots, right? Like more shots than people ever thought possible um I like it's a number of shots that make ko cry and You know, but ko does still exist of like that. So I'm not going to say there's like no shooting problem in the game But what's interesting because I mean as long as sentinels exist. There's a shooting problem in the game But like but a lot of shooting is actually mitigated by what's going on With this various ability to respond with kind of different save stacking Because so much shooting that isn't the most offensive stuff I'm not saying that stuff isn't still a problem. It is But a lot of shooting is like neg one rent shooting and it used to be quite damaging But there's now quite a large ability to protect the unit. You didn't want to get shot Because you can you like you know what they're going to shoot So you mystic shield that unit and then they all out defense and then all of a sudden they're like They're much more resilient to that neg one rent shooting, right? They would have like take your stand take a just average four up war scroll unit or four save unit, right war scroll Previously neg one rent shooting would have done a lot of damage to them because they only would have negated a third of the woods But even turn one A lot of times They'll stay and cover and then mind it, you know, even if you're going even if you're trying to alpha shoot them They're never and they all out defense and now it's like, well, what's the point? I'm right. I don't have enough damage to kill that model Right, exactly. All of a sudden there on Uh, all of a sudden there they went from negating a third of the damage that was dealt to them to two-thirds of the damage dealt to them So ironically save stacking has to some degree except in the most egregious cases Limited the power of shooting Right, especially like neg one rent shooting Yeah So if we just like If we just blew open the doors and said the most you can ever get ever is always plus one Which I think it is an interesting experiment paul I'll be fascinated to see if my prediction comes true here in iron realms By the way, but don't forget iron realm gt Down in the chat or it's down in the description. Hit that up if you're near oklahoma. It is a tournament coming up You should go there. It's going to be super fun and paul is addressing save stacking So if you hit save stacking and you're in that area go check it out and see how it plays You know, I think that you do Reopen the door to some degree To that shooting being more powerful Now that being said, I think that if we actually had proper terrain rules Okay Where there was, you know more impassable line of sight walking. Yeah, exactly Yep, more hard line of sight blocking terrain and obscuring terrain and stuff like that Kind of the terrain pack that myself and rob from oswar gamer and tyler have talked about a lot in the past, right? If that was the real terrain pack we had Then I think you would then I would say great. We're we're solid I would have no problem suddenly pulling the throttle down to to plus one to save is where you kind of cap Right, because you then negating shooting would be a matter of play much like it is in 40k Right, they use a lot of the 40k formats use pretty terrain heavy boards And the way you negate shooting is you you use the board right you you like You do what you do which is don't go stand out in the open. So you get shot like You stand other places behind buildings and stuff and you like Force them to come to you or to move into positions where they have to sort of put themselves out there or whatever, right? So, yeah So let's get to options now. Okay um the uh The The options are like we could limit to plus one to save in all ways like you can just like everything you put on it Doesn't matter. It's just you got plus one. You got plus one. It's sort of a state based effect, right? You can that's kind of whatever we first read the rules That's kind of what we thought it might be when they were kind of sneaking it. They were giving us the previews Because I said something about oh, you know Plus one say I don't remember exactly what it was, but that's kind of what we were like. Oh, maybe that's the new way Yeah, yeah Plus two save you could you could if you think plus one is too strong You can say like, okay. Well, you can go to plus two and that's it, right? It never again like that's sort of the max you can push into Tyler one of the things you suggested was limit the save to never improve below Plus three unless it's already better in which case it can never improve at all Right. So like so ones and twos always go through right ones and twos always go through Yep, unless you're annihilators and then you got a tip save Yeah, if you're like annihilators or crag nosy and you're and on your scroll is written two up Then you get to keep that if you got a two up, but you did just stay there, right? I mean that certainly elevates the value of buckets of dice, you know as opposed to neg one rent So it's not really necessarily doing a whole lot on that front because it's still saying that you could stack Against rent. It's just that you can never get better than what your war scroll is And you can't ever push three up people to two up which is a Right and We've kind of also talked about it a little bit earlier, but We've got to like completely get rid of re-roll ones or re-roll saves Yeah, if we want yes, if we want if we want to keep save stacking, we got to get rid of that because that's Oh, yeah Yeah, I completely agree like I can't believe we kept any re-roll saves Maybe some of the re-roll is going to go away in in the white dwarf sites of darkness thing We'll see like diseases re-roll ones go away. I don't know um, but like because Unit isn't a big deal, but right there's way too many three ups. I'm sure Become two of them, right Yep, yeah See, I agree like the the re-roll problem is is real right now, right? It just it takes all of this and just exacerbates the heck out of it Yeah, like the fact that they didn't FAQ away shield of fate is just mind-boggling to me. All right, right so So yeah on on these options Let's see I'm concerned that just immediately going to plus one save periods. You've got mystic shield and find a sour Sorry, you just got plus one save that that might be going too far too quickly But maybe not I mean I it's the counter to that is it lets you spread it out Now you're plus one save on three different units instead of stacking it all on one. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's better, but Yeah That's that's interesting the plus two save in all the ways I do Where I wonder if that's not going far enough actually in that I mean it's and it Right. It depends on if it's on a three up or on a five up. Yeah character, you know save character Yeah, it's like how how big of a difference is that cutting out the plus three? And allowing the plus two Like it is that the real Gap that we do need to To cross here just cutting out that plus three Actually, maybe let's drill in on that a little bit So we've talked a lot about. Yeah, these three plus save Finest hour mystic shield of all that defense boom now again, you're not or other ways to get it Sylvan f tla true of the ancients. Can you even get to four? Yeah, yeah, there's ways to get to yeah, even plus four and some armies So cutting out the plus three and plus four Is that going far enough? What do you think paul? Just limiting to plus two. I think it's I think I would take it as a step in the right direction and you know That way they're not completely they're not because it does like you said it makes finest hour all out defense and You know mystic shield one of our kind of all all all get worse because you can't stack it but If I was to pick between the three I'm kind of leaning towards your third one about you know, at least ones and twos get through at least You know, I mean, yeah, and then stuff that's already on a two up you know They can't ignore rend basically they go back to three, you know, the rend goods gets through and they're at three up At least instead of it being like whatever 83 saved you're at 66 It does it does. I think tyler's right. It does change the incentive structure such that you are incentivized toward buckets of dice Right because like low numbers of high damage attacks You have a very high chance of that not to go through At all whereas buckets of dice yield the law of large numbers will start to come into effect And you'll get a third of your damage through right like the math gets real swingy if you have four If you have sort of four hit, you know four potential things to save against on a three up It's very easy for that to become zero It's also potentially possible for it to become like all four of them go through of course But right be to become it's very it's a very swingy result Whereas all of a sudden if you're if you have you know, 80 You're saving against or whatever because you're you're getting shot at by bone splitters or something Right. It's like well a third of this is just mathematically going through right Yeah You know, there's other options we could get that are more crazy By the vibe that aren't systematic changes. Okay, and people have been talking about some of them in the chat so for example A lot of these instead of just like they that we inserted all this plus one to save into the game Or sorry. Yeah, plus want to save through an FAQ, right? That's what inserted all this in here Yeah, when we went back in the first FAQ and just said shove it all in there The core rules has a little bit of it obviously through mystic shield best day ever all on defense, right? But a lot of it a lot of the other stuff got shoved Yeah, you see I'm saying like regular visions and yada yada yada, right? Yeah We could just make all those things reduce rend by one Because then you know, you could reduce rend by a million It still caps at a zero Right. You understand I'm saying they get you back to your base save which is kind of what the war scroll was built around Right kind of what the points were designed around was what's your base save? Right. So then like people who are on a three up if everything just said reduce rend by one instead of Uh, actually increasing the save Then archaeon couldn't get better than a three up Right imagine if everything that said plus one to save right now just said reduce rend by one Okay, archaeon's still rolling around at best on a three up right But that still goes back to the uh, the buckets of dice Sure, what ends up getting through that 100 true, right? And nicolas that is part of the problem that I have with yeah a lot of these as well Is that they are a little clunky and in elegance whereas like the plus one save has the benefit of it's the simplest clearest most elegant I right because it would just be the one that's suddenly like Aligned with the plus one to hit and plus one to wound sort of thing Yeah, it would feel very safe. It would feel similar in some way Yeah, although in that case that's not true either you can stack plus four to hit and counter out negatives to penalties Those are still there. They're just not as we just didn't like poop those all over the game in the same way Right. Yeah, you could also change all of these plus one to save things to a six up word Which does not sec Right and then it would effectively like Just kind of yeah, it's going to reduce a six everyone a six up word Everyone would just be rolling around with six up wards all the time It would be a lot more rolling for not a lot of effect Right, that's a problem. Like you'd be rolling a lot of dice and not pulling many out Like oh, I took 20 wounds got through hold on. I got 21. I got to roll 20 dice again Right and of that like I'm going to negate three wounds on average Uh that it would have problems with how it already then works with like a lot more armies would suddenly Be very bad at taking advantage of that Right, like doc and knight ha everything death effectively, right? Like all those armies are suddenly like wow this what a useful. What a useless set of rules. You just handed me Yeah So suddenly all of those rules just do nothing the knight haunt problem expands like times a million So or you go or you go back completely switch to the re-roll ones and not pluses But I don't know that's the right That's what it was in two point. I was originally I think they were leaning towards re-roll wants to save rather than right Pluses, yeah Yeah, the other option is you just go through and cut a lot of these out of the game Like you could you could be systematically targeting about there Sorry strategically targeting about these right instead of trying to do a broad sweeping change Like we could just go in and make them like neg one to hits instead of plus Yeah, you just go in and rewrite a bunch of them into different effects Right, you could also go that direction and kind of limit like okay the three plus ones in the game are all out defense best day ever and Mystic shield and that's it Right that that literally becomes like the three plus ones in the game And so suddenly it's way more tightly controlled Yeah, one of the things they said in the chat that I liked the idea was mystic shield changing to the a sick support Sure, so like that way there's one less One less that you can stack that's available to everybody and The word save is now available to some armies that don't have it Yeah so I think there's a lot of options here and my answer is it they should be looking at ways to solve this Because I think it is a challenge right because of these are so inequitously distributed I just think there is a real challenge here Like Yes, is it always a challenge to your point Tyler? No But when it creeps up, it's sure the heck is a big one Yeah Yeah, that's what i'm struggling with is that i'm just not yet convinced that there is A clear and evident generalized case For a change with safe stacking, but i'm 100 convinced there are Meaningful multiple examples that are case specific We've talked about some that are really damaging to the game the ecosystem. It's actually right now the play experience Arche on a gash at the top of the list, but there are others And you know, I've given various anecdotal stories We all have anecdotal stories of you know, my events I told you three cabbage a cabbage surviving three stone horns that that should never happen I mean that's very realistic right like that's anything that's just relying on mass damage with like neg one or neg two rend It's it's not going to be weird for that thing to just live Sure Yeah, right. Like if you see it coming as you often do you just You just turtle up and it's like okay sure attack me with everything Yeah, I'm leaning more and more towards Make all out defense make that plus one save make mystic shield a six step after save and make a best day ever minus one to be hit And now you split you split those into three different things that all can buff you but not to where you have to do 720 damage to kill you sure sure It's interesting There are multiple other ways to some armies have I guess that's the downside is that there are still armies that could plus three to save Yeah, sure. I mean again We've got an on FAQ this or get new tomes out or whatever and somebody said how much is this a problem new tomes? Will this just be fixed with new tomes? Maybe maybe not I have no idea but I can tell you given our current rate It's going to be 2023 before you have like half the tones in the game is replaced So we'll be a year away from launching aos 4.0 by the time we get most of the before we tick the 50% mark over right So that's like that's not a quick fix Um Okay, let's uh, I want to bring this to a close here somewhat soon But I want to take discuss a couple things real quick cogs affects only one wizard Done limited to one Easy it's a cheap end the spell. It's 45 points. It's plus one to cast How much does it generally cast to go from one cast wizard to a two cast wizard? Why it's about 40 to 50 points? Hey, what a weird thing that 45 would be right in the middle of that Yeah, there we go. Does that still get taken sure sometimes? I don't care if it doesn't I don't care plenty of endless spells don't get taken and nobody seems to have a problem with that. So whatever Uh, I want to return to the fox real quick for jason's to others because I haven't forgotten you jason Somebody said they are kind of still danger close should they just not be able to skirmish And my answer is they shouldn't be able to skirmish like that and just be immune to melee. Okay Their shot is still 18 inches. That's still a perfectly reasonable shooting range There's a lot of shots in the game that are much shorter range and people have to be a lot more danger close If at the end of the shooting phase they moved like a d6 inches or something right the enemy shooting phase They could just kind of float around with sort of a redeploy With a d6 fine if you want to give them a little bit of extra cushion But like yes, it means you have to use that piece more carefully, right? Like that's my argument the fact that they can just flat move literally the entire charge distance away is the problem So that is what needs to go away. Are there other fixes or half measures we could take sure I got a lot but like 18 inches Man, I just played a whole army with a lot of 18 and shooting that I had to move up there I didn't have the ability to just leave Right like I had an army where most of my stuff wanted to be at 12 inches Okay so like You know, I wasn't I wasn't you know, a lot of those units didn't put out severeth level damage by the buy Uh, so that would be my argument, right? Like I don't have a problem with a sort of skirmishy play style But that shouldn't just mean you get to like ignore enemy Movement Um aos coached it. How do you feel about manfred given? He's also anti combat for the most part Uh, I think his rule like I didn't mention him here, but I think his rule should be exactly the same Uh, like it should be limited to one combat phase or something The fact that that dude never fights in melee unless he wants to is is weird Um, like it's quite really strong.  That's the end any final points gentlemen. I do want to wrap this up We went a while there. Yeah Yeah, I think definitely more conversation around this whole safe stacking issue, you know, personally, I'm still not convinced for whatever it's worth Again with the generalized case for it very convinced for the specific cases Where does how does that wash out though? Like trying to fix Archeon and and so on and so forth, but not Changing it in general. I don't know. I'm very conflicted about it. It hasn't been a huge problem To me In the 30 plus games that I played there have been some specific very odd Experiences though But you know in a small number of games which I've given some stories of and I'm sure we all have stories It is clearly something that Is bothering a lot of people about 3.0 And but it it's just I find it quite complicated and very worried about unintended consequences particularly when we are in a Meta that's in my opinion the healthiest that it's ever been in the game with the with still incredible variety like Lot of monsters are playable heroes are playable big units are playable ms. Use every that everything's playable right now and so I don't know guys like I I get it, but I'm just not quite sold And I'm not really seeing any clear direction From a generalized standpoint on how to on how to address this. That's fair. Yeah, so Paul I'll give you the final word. I just want to say this I think the game is still in a great place you look at the results people are winning all over the place It is still a game that's largely one on objectives not killing stuff Objectives and battle tax and not the tactics and not just killing stuff, right? So we need to make sure we keep this problem in in these problems within Sort of the box that they belong in right we do have a wide swath of armies all placing in top tens We actually have the most healthy meta we've ever had That being said that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be seeking to improve stuff Of course, we all agree with that. Sure, but But I do think we need to acknowledge that that is the case. Will that persist? I don't know. We'll see. I hope so. I you know, it'll be interesting to watch how it plays out So, yeah, I think that the game isn't a good place I think we can get to better And I think we as like I'd love to see them roll back some of the nonsense and fix some of the mistakes from the FAQ from the wrong call section Like one of the things that really gets me is these a lot of these have become proud nails Like we have a really smooth deck now But there's a couple proud nails sticking up out of it and they're really obvious Right, so as things have become a little more controlled and the fields become wider, which is great The things that stand up those tall poppies are really Uh, you know, they're really sort of obvious, right? Um, so Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at Paul, what's your final thought before we call it a night? Um, I kind of the same same place that you are I think overall that we're in a pretty good spot for the game. We just are trying to make it better Trying to deal with some of the Things that are the most agrees, you know Not fun to play against I think safe sacking can be one of those things as well as everything else on this list So, uh We're But we'll keep keep it going, you know get our games in we'll we'll see how it goes But I do like that there's lots armies doing well and I like that the Hopefully the battle tactic change won't won't turn everything upside down to We all hope for that. We all hope for that All right for all of you out there watching. Hey, if you liked this Give it a like if you disagree with our list comment down below. Tell us what you think Uh, but hit that like button. We really appreciate it helps other people find the show I yet again have managed to make it three and a half hours into a show without saying hit the like button So I appreciate that. Thank you to everybody who did if you're still watching, please click like it's so nice It's so easy and it helps other people find it. Uh, subscribe if you haven't already of course as always Thank you paul pleasure having you on brother. Thank you for doing all that work with the cool charts Tyler as always a pleasure all of you out there. Thank you for joining us and as always We'll see you next wednesday Thank you


time here for more systems and I'm going to show you how to build Zen Orchestra from sources with a really simple script. All the script and the commands I'll be using be linked to a form post down in the description below. So let's get started. Now the first thing I want to mention is the difference between Zen Orchestra and Zen Orchestra appliance. So XO versus XO A. XO A the appliance is the paid product that you can get from the people over at VATES and their Zen Orchestra website. They have pricing. They also have bundle pricing to get this with the XEP and G server that you'll find links to that in that same forum post. But we're going to talk about how to compile it yourself from source. But if you do want to get the XO A, they have a really simple option that will automatically and quickly deploy this and give you a 30 day free trial. So this is completely from the team over at VATES. But let's jump into if you want to use this in a lab environment out of production environment. This is good for production environments. This is recommended for production environments, but for the lab environments and a lot of you that are in the home lab or to home user that wants to try out the full featured system. That's what we're going to do is compile from sources. Now there are going to be two things missing from the compile from source version versus when you buy it. And those two things are going to be their automatic updates, which is why you have the no support button here.  We'll talk about how to update this as well. And if you want to use their automated templates and recipes, these are nice features that you have with the paid version that you're not going to get but you can still completely build your own templates. These are some of the default ones that they give you with the paid instance of it. But it's not something you have to use in order to set up because you still have if we go over here like new virtual machine, I'm going to select my pool here. And I still have all these templates, but I actually have to provide the ISO for them versus the templates they have are a little bit more advanced and can automatically download the ISOs. Now it only takes one Zen Orchestra instance to manage many XC PNG hosts. I've got a video where I talk about the architecture of how Zen works. I've also got a video talking about the backups and how that is managed using Zen Orchestra. You'll find that link down below. But I want to talk about a little bit of the chicken and egg problem when you first load an XC PNG host and then have to get Zen Orchestra on there. You have two options. First option is really simple. You can load XO a the paid version but set up for a 30 day trial or even just use it unregistered. They actually have a pretty basic functionality you get for free on there. And then you can use that to build a WNVM on one of your hosts and then build out the full XO from sources. This makes a little bit easier. I don't recommend using the Windows tool. I know a lot of people have maybe seen my old videos on that. That's not a tool I'd recommend here in 2024. Also here in January 2024 XO light is coming along. That is a version that is going to be shipping with XC PNG. It's a light version of Zen Orchestra as it name implies won't have as many features as the full version of XO but will help you with getting started and getting you a basic management interface. I'm looking forward to doing videos on that when it's out or maybe you're watching this in the future when that is available. The final thing I want to mention though is running virtual box or really any other machine even a bare metal machine that you may want to run this on. You don't have to run XO on XC PNG. That's not an absolute requirement because the XO instance connects to all the XC PNG hosts that you have set up. You can run it something like virtual box to get it started or like I do here. I keep this one up to date because I like running it in virtual box because my machine is fast and I manage a lot of systems. I don't have to load on each of these systems that I'm testing in my lab a instance of XO on them at all. I can just connect them as I load them with XC PNG and delete and format them later and reattach them via this instance I have running in virtual box. Now let's get started with the script. And that's the script on GitHub. The Zen orchestra installer updater as its name implies it both installs and manages the install once it's installed to apply the updates. There's a lot of good documentation here. It supports CentOS, all millennics, Rocky, Debian and Ubuntu. All these are supported. There's probably ways you can get it to work with other distros but those are pretty popular ones. So I think they've covered quite a few of them here and they give you a sample config. What we're going to do is just like it says here, we're going to copy this sample config when we get pull this and make it our XO install config and I'll walk you through the settings on that with the exception of customizing the command line. This is a basic install of Debian 12. I will say there are two prerequisites. The first one is going to be that you have get installed. The second one is going to be that if you want certificates that you'll need open SSL installed to create those certificates, we're going to walk you through that process of doing a self-signed certificate. There is an option that I'm not covering for doing let's encrypt but I don't think this should be publicly exposed to the internet so I'm not going to cover that. I don't see the use case for it as much. I prefer to keep all my infrastructure especially control planes for my virtual machines behind a firewall and if you don't want to deal with self-signed certificates, then I recommend a reverse proxy. Now we're going to go ahead and get cloned. So we have a copy of the repository here. So get cloned the install updater CD then orchestra install updater. We have our sample config. So we're going to copy it over to the XO install config and then use the editor of your choice. I prefer Vim. Maybe you prefer something else and we're going to customize this XO install. Now for simplicity, I'm only going to show you the things that need to be customized to get the certificate set up. There's a lot more options in here, but the default options are really good. I would leave them here. The port. If you leave it at port 80 and want to leave it just HTTP, not HTTPS, that's perfectly fine. But because we're putting certificates in, we're going to put it at 443. You can choose a completely different port if that works better for you. Scroll down here. By default, it does load all the plugins. We're going to leave that just as it is. And we're going to get down here to the certificates. We have to specify those certificates. We're going to show you how to generate them, but the only thing you have to do inside the config file is change the path to uncommented. So the installer XO cert and XO key. If you customize these any more than that, then my next steps won't work. So make sure you remember what you called these because that's important for creating the self-signed certs. Going to close and write this file. Now once the script runs, it'll create this directory, but because it hasn't run yet, we want to put those files in there. We need to create the makedir XO. So now we've created that directory. Now we're going to ahead and use OpenSSL to create the self-signed certificate. Now we're going to ahead and run the updater. It's going to be sudo dot slash XO install dot sh. And we just pressed one for install and kick back and let it do its thing. Now when we kick this off, it's installing all the different dependencies that are needed. It's putting all the different utilities that need to be set up in here. And this takes a little bit longer the first time you run it. But then when you choose the update, when you run this again, it's pretty straightforward because it will not have to do that a second time. It just grabs the source code. It will update any of them that may be out of date and then it'll kick off the process again. Depending on the speed of your system, this can take anywhere from five minutes to 10 to 15 minutes. It's very processor dependent. And now it's time to rate a login. As it notes here, the default username is admin and admin dot net. And the password is admin. So let's pull up a browser and login. And of course first we're going to be presented with our self-signed certificate error. And we're going to go ahead and log in with admin and admin dot net password admin. I don't want to save that password. As a matter of fact, the very first step you should do is going into settings users and create another admin. So we're going to create Tom or make him an admin, give him a password, hit create. Then we're going to go in sign out. And now we can go ahead and delete the admin account. And now we're good to go to start setting this up. To get your first Zen server in here, we're going to go here to settings, servers. We'll attach my lab server I have. We'll throw in the IP address of that lab server. Username is going to be root. Put in the password for that server. We're going to go ahead and allow unauthorized certificate unless you actually taking the time to set up certificates within there that are authorized and trusted. And here we go. We've got this system connected and running. We don't need to save those passwords. We go to the VMs and here is the system that I built this from the Debian XO from sources. That's it. It is now good to go. Now the system we just built is completely up to date. But let's show you this one right here that means a bit of updating to run the updates. We're just going to run the XO install again. But this time we're going to go ahead and choose the update option on this one. So option two, installing node search repository, it double checks to make sure all the other peak packages are up to date. And now it's running the installation again. And this will put me back on the latest versions. You can just keep rerunning this script if you need to update. It's that simple and it lets me know what the latest poll it's going to have here is. Now I've been using this script for a long time and it's improved a lot over the years. You know, a lot of tweaking and tuning that's been added to that config file now and making it a lot easier to use. You can still follow the directions right from the people at VATES. They have how to build it from source. And I've done that before when I was not using this script. I wanted to go through the manual process because this is all open source and all the code is available. This script is actually pulling from their GitHub repository, them being VATES and putting this all together. So you're getting the latest and freshest build and the script is just facilitating making that a little bit easier. But you can do this completely manually as well or you can even walk through the script to figure out how it does it because well it's open source as well. Love hearing from all of you. Leave your thoughts and comments down below. I will mention more and more time as I did in the beginning. If you're using this for business I do recommend you get the Zen Orchestra appliance that does have the auto updates in there. You're also helping support the project when you do that because well it's all free and code is great but people still have to write the code and it's still good to support these projects but nonetheless love hearing from you. Leave your thoughts and comments down below. Like and subscribe to see more content. Join my forums to have a more in-depth discussion and look for the forum post that has some of the details of the commands I use especially if you're weren't sure how I generated that OpenSSL certificate it's pretty easy to do. Thanks.


Welcome to the Endless Knot. Today, a two-parter in which native Lang and I are exploring ancient Germanic runes. After you've learned here about the word rune and how runes are intertwined into the modern world, head over to native Lang to find out about the development of the runic writing system, from Vikings scratching graffiti on a church in Constantinople to tales of Odin and magical words. The runic system that was used in Anglo-Saxon England and Scandinavia before the arrival of Christian missionaries was rarely employed for writing extended texts, mainly just inscriptions and such like. Once the missionaries arrived, though, it didn't take long for the new converts to come up with the idea of using the Latin alphabet for writing down not just Latin, but also their own language. Just one problem. Or maybe a couple, actually. There were some sounds in the various Germanic languages that just didn't exist in Latin, so there were no letters to use to write them down. For instance, both the voice v as in modern English either and the voiceless f as in ether didn't exist in Latin, though a similar sound from ancient Greek was represented as th in Latin contexts. In early Old English manuscripts, the sound was represented as the digraph, that's two letters together making one sound, th, or simply as the letter d, but eventually a diacritic stroke was added to that letter d to differentiate it from a regular letter d to make a symbol we now refer to as eth. And a little later, another solution to this missing sound also began to be used, one of those old runic characters, the thorn as it was called in Anglo-Saxon, or thurs meaning giant or ogre in Old Norse. You see, though the runic writing system is an alphabet representing sounds, not an ideographic system, the characters have meaningful names. These two characters, either eths or the runic thorn, could be used for either th or th. Old Norse manuscripts followed suit with first the letter thorn, and a little later the eth, with the added twist that thorn came to be used only as the initial letter in words, an eth in other positions, whereas in Old English, the letters were used interchangeably. Another runic character was pressed into service as well, the win meaning joy, to represent the w sound. In Latin, the letter u was used for both the vowel u and the consonant w. Actually, in the earlier Old English manuscripts, the letter u was used for w, but eventually to avoid confusion between the vowel u and the consonant u, the runic win was adopted. Of course, to our modern eyes, the runic win looks an awful lot like the letter p, so modern printed editions of Old English texts replace all the wins with our modern w, a character that came about a little later by joining up two v's or two u's, the double u. But if you're reading actual manuscripts from the period, you have to mind your p's and, well, wins. Actually, we're kind of prone to mixing up those Old Runic characters and Roman letters. That's what happened with those ye oldy shop signs, in fact. You see, the thorn hung around for a while after the Old English period, gradually becoming less and less common, and as it did so, the form of the character became less and less distinct, with the ascender, that perpendicular line on the side, becoming shorter. So the thorn looked more like the win, which by the 14th century had disappeared, and like the p. Confusing. And by the 15th century, it looked a lot like the letter y, so that when the printing press came along, printers would often use the y in place of thorn, though by that point, the th-digraph had mostly replaced it, with the thorn being used in common words like the, often represented in texts as y standing in for thorn with a superscript e. So what looks like y-e-e was actually thorn-e-the, so it should really be pronounced the Old Shop, but that's not nearly so quaint. One last way that runes were worked into English back in those Old Anglo-Saxon manuscripts was as a type of secret code. A few individual runes signs were dropped into the otherwise Latin script, which would be put together to spell out the answer to a riddle or the name of the author, as in this poem by Cunowulf. It's no coincidence that runes were used in this secretive way, since rune itself is not only Old English for rune character, but also meant secret or mystery, and counsel or consultation. It comes via proto-Germanic probably from an Indo-European root meaning roar or murmur, which also gives us the words rumour, riot, and raucous. The word mostly faded from the language, along with the runes themselves, after the Anglo-Saxon period, only to be added back in by scholars in the 17th century and later, who were studying those Old Runes. But there is at least one hidden remnant of the word in the place name runemede. You see, runemede in Suri was where Anglo-Saxon kings held council meetings with their various nobles, aldermen, thanes, and so forth. Remember the council meeting of rune? The so-called Witana Yamat, literally meeting of the wise men, which, by the way, inspired J.K. Rowling's Council of Wizards, the Whizengammet. So runemede literally means rune island meadow, and it's therefore appropriate that in the year 1215, the funeral barons of England, who were, I suppose, raucous and ready to riot, Buttonhold King John had forced him to accept the Magna Carta, which limited the powers of the tyrannical king. Not that he kept to his agreement, but rescinded it shortly afterwards. Nevertheless, Magna Carta marks an important milestone in constitutional history. Getting back to those runes themselves, for the most part, they're used faded with the Middle Ages, but they were later revived with gophicism and the interest in the ancient Germanic past in the 18th and 19th century. This is a factor in the growing nationalism of German romanticism, which celebrated, and to some degree fabricated, a romanticized version of Germanic history, of which runes were a part. Furthermore, the runes fed into the esoteric and occultist fascination of figures such as Austrian mysticist Guido von List, who developed the Arminin runes, and inspired by them, Karl-Maria Viligut, who developed his own version of the runes in the 20th century. And that's the next link in our chain, because this was exactly the sort of thing that caught the interest of the Nazi occultists, particularly Heinrich Himmler, who incorporated these runes into various Nazi insignia, most famously the insignia of the Schutzstaffel, the so-called SS. Another script-related thing that the Nazis were into, at least at first, was the old black letter or fracture typeface, which had developed from the Gothic manuscript hands of the later Middle Ages, and which by the 19th century had become particularly associated with Germanic culture and language. The Nazis eventually decided to dump the fracture typeface in favor of the Roman script, claiming, mendaciously, anti-Semitic reasons, but actually, because it made practical sense to use the same typeface as the rest of the Latin alphabet using world. The Nazis weren't the only ones to favor the fracture typeface. Many writers in the 19th and early 20th century expressed similar attachment to the script for German nationalist reasons, such as German type designer Rudolf Koch. In addition to typefaces, Koch was also interested in other graphic symbols, such as the old Germanic runes, and published a book on various old symbols, monograms, and runes called The Book of Signs. This book brought many of these old symbols and runes to pop culture notice, including to the attention of rock band Led Zeppelin, who used a couple of the symbols from the book on the cover of their fourth album, which were meant to represent the band members. The one that drummer John Bonham selected was Three Circles, meant to symbolize two parents and a child. It also happens to be similar to the company logo of the 400-year-old German Industrial Family Dynasty, known for steelworks, and for, believe it or not, a German heavy metal band called Die Krupps, who called themselves after this old German family name. The company logo is actually based on the seamless railway wheels the company manufactured. But, lest you think this is all a bit of a tangential connection, the Krupps family ties into our story in another way. You see, the company manufactured weapons for World War II, for which they got into some trouble due to their forced labour practices, as well as for World War I, during which they built the famous heavy gun called Big Bertha, named after, if you'll believe it, Krupp family member and heiress Bertha Krupp. Actually, there's a long history of giving guns women's names, such as Mons Meg at Edinburgh Castle, and also it seems the very first gun, so to speak. At least that's where the word gun comes from, a particular 14th-century cannon at Windsor Castle called Domina Gunilda, or Lady Gunhilda. Gunhilda is an old Scandinavian name, the two parts Gunnar and Hildur, both meaning battle, and both names of Valkyries, the warrior goddesses who collect the souls of the slain warriors from the battlefield in Norse mythology. As the Oxford English Dictionary points out, there weren't any notable women in England at the time by that name, so likely the use of the name for large munitions, before gunpowder and cannons, they be ballistas or other large siege weapons, goes back to Scandinavian times, perhaps after someone like Gunhilda, daughter of Harold Bluetooth. She and her husband were apparently killed in the Saint Bryce's Day Massacre in 1002, when all the Danes in England were ordered killed by King Athelred the Unready, the retaliation for which her brother Swain Forkbeard retook England, which Harold Bluetooth had held before Athelred, bringing it back under Scandinavian control. And speaking of Harold Bluetooth, that's where we get the term for the wireless short-range communication technology that you probably have in your smartphone. You see, Harold was also known for uniting the war in Danish tribes into a single unified kingdom. In fact, the Jellings Runestone I've used as the background for this video was raised by Harold to commemorate his unification of Denmark and Norway. And on that basis, Swedish telecommunications company Ericsson picked his name for a technology that was intended to unify the at-the-time disorganized communications protocols, uniting them into one standard. Oh, and the symbol for that unifying technology? It's based on the runic symbols for the initials of Harold Bluetooth. Now that you've seen the later history of runes, a continuous process of dividing and unifying, head over to Native Lang to have their early history filled in, from the Viking sack of Seville to the mysteries of the elder and younger Futhark. Click here to see that video, and check out his other videos on the history of writing systems while you're there. Thanks for watching. If you've enjoyed these etymological explorations and cultural connections, please subscribe to this channel or share it. You can also sign up for email notifications of new videos in the description below. And check out our Patreon page, where you can make a contribution to help me make more videos. Leave a comment or question, or tweet at alliterative. You can also read more of my thoughts on my blog at alliterative.net. Still here? Don't forget to check out the other part of this video at Native Lang. It's got Vikings!