If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this special 420 episode, little bit sentimental. It's like a holiday for pump heads, right? It definitely is. I don't know how 420 came out. No, let's not go down that rabbit hole. There's lots of speculation on it. Yeah, if it was a grateful dead thing, if it was an after school thing, if there's so many ideas on what it's supposed to be. Well, it is 420. We do, cannabis is always kind of like a background thing for mind pump. And you were in the business and we're all interested in it and Justin eats edibles every day. So we're all, Are you out me like that, bro? Just kidding. But it's a 420 episode. What we did is we took our quaw and we moved it to Sunday.  It's just moved over to Sunday. Today's episode was no direction. We had five to 10 milligrams of THC and started the podcast and had a great time. We started out by talking about old time training wisdom and unexpected muscle building exercises. You know, that part of the episode was really good. Well, we got into like how they used to work out and the history of it and how their advice applies to today. No, I promise, even though this is a high episode, I promise there's- We'll just really kick in. There is some- A little bit later. Let's just say there's some nugget bombs inside. There are some serious nugget bombs in this episode. In your mouth. Oh, wow. We had, you'll know why when you listen to this episode. Too far, okay, yeah. We talked about counterproductive workouts, VR sports, virtual reality sports. Look out. Tattoos and body modifications, prohibition and unwanted behavior. We talked about refer madness. This is the crazy propaganda film that was put out a long time ago to show people- Pretty hilarious and worth a watch, for sure. Talk about the war on cannabis, cannabinoids in cancer, coffee in cannabis. Cannabinoids is the regulators of the body. And then we talked about all kinds of stuff for the business of cannabis. So much more. Yeah, earwax and putty and clear and the downsides of overusing it. And then we had a trip down memory lane. We talked a lot about the old days of mine pump, insecurities. The old shakana. Somewhere in there, we mentioned the worst marketing ideas, mine pump as ever, ever, ever. The only one we could think of was mine. Ever had, and I promise you, unless you're like an old time listener, you are not familiar with what we talk about in this episode. And I don't think we've ever gone into that much detail. No. Quite embarrassing. And then, oh, we did mention, I did mention four-sigmatic. We weren't even supposed to, and I did anyway. We talked about chaga and its cancer killing effects. Four-sigmatic is one of our sponsors. If you go to four, f-o-u-r-sigmatic, s-i-g-m-a-t-i-c dot com forward slash mine pump and enter the code, mine pump. We got a special discount for you. And before the episode begins, I do want to remind everybody, we are giving away the no BS six pack formula for free if you enroll in a maps bundle. Maps bundles are where we take two or more maps programs, specifically for a particular goal.  For example, the maps super bundle is a year of exercise program. And so it's a whole year planned out for you. Enroll in any of those bundles, get the no BS six pack formula for free. You can find all of them at minepumpmedia.com. Happy 420. Hey, happy 420, boys. Yeah. Let's see where this podcast goes, huh? We're gonna go to the stratosphere. Have you guys ever thought about reality? Finish your statement that you were talking about with, cause I really like when you post these, the old timey stuff, like you're, and you're getting a ton of traction. I see a lot of people are liking it. So. Well here, so here's the thing about muscle building and it reminds me of the more of martial arts. Let me explain what that, what I mean by that. Exactly. Let me explain what I mean. And then I'm still sober. The edible hasn't even hit yet. This didn't even hit yet. So with martial arts, martial arts have been around way longer, way longer, thousands of years. And weight lifting. Than lifting, you know, weight training. Now exercise has been around for a long time also. Martial arts, that was part of their, you know, of martial arts was training. Yeah, it was more like weapons training and preparation for war. Yeah, but like actual resistance training to build muscles gets stronger. That's a, that's a relatively new thing. And it wasn't really popular, or at least I should say it wasn't something that was structured until the, like the 19th century. You know, like eight, the late 19th century, like 1840s, 1850s, and then early 20th century. And the reason why I'm making this comparison is when people talk martial arts, because I was also pretty into that as well. At one point when I was a kid, I used to read a lot of books on the history of different martial arts. This conversation always comes up. This martial art is 10,000 years old and look at the ancient wisdom that they had then. Or look at the way Kung Fu masters trained back during these times. And here's why these moves look a particular way. For example, in certain styles of Kung Fu, you see these really low stances, like these really, really low stances. And then they do these kicks where they use what's called the ridge of the foot, the side of the foot. And you ask yourself, you know, why did they do that? Well, back then a lot of these guys were on boats and they had to defend themselves on boats. And that low stance helped them out. They also, there's evidence that they used to wear these sandals with seashells along the sides of their foot. And so when they would kick with that ridge.  But anyway, it's fascinating stuff, right? Well, when it comes to weight training and building muscle, there is a tremendous amount of old wisdom that comes from the guys that worked out in the 19th century and early 20th century. And the reason why there's a lot of wisdom is, you know, there's so much about exercising your body and about nutrition that you can boil down to feel. How does your body feel? Do what's best for your body? We communicate this all the time. Well, back in those days, that's all they had. They had nothing else. The first off- No comparison data to run off of. First off, supplements didn't exist. Steroids, they might've existed in laboratories and stuff like that, but they were not used. Steroids weren't really used until the 19, maybe 30s and 40s. And they weren't widely used until probably the 60s, maybe 50s and 60s. So they didn't have those things.   They didn't have any of that information. So it was totally based off of wisdom. Wisdom passed on from other strong men and also what worked. And so, you know, years ago, just because I'm a, I consider myself a student of the game. It's something that really interests me. Years ago- Sorry, I don't want to, were all those books that were you posting? Do you own all those? I do. Oh, so I was wondering if those were screen, you own all those? Yeah. Bro, can you please bring those in here? Of course. I'll tell you the story about those in just a second. So years ago, I started really getting into how the old-time bodybuilders worked out. People like Steve Reeves and John Grimmick and Bill Pearl and all those guys. And then that led me to look even further back. And then I started reading about Eugene Sandow and Lewis Kyer and all these other strong men. Some of them were ripped, some of them were fat. Charles Atlas. Yeah, all of them had incredible feats of strength. Like Eugene Sandow, let me explain something to you. Eugene Sandow probably weighed about 180 something pounds, maybe 190 pounds. Shredded, you can still see pictures of him. Very muscular guy. Was he the one that held everybody in a bent press on a bench overhead? He held a record, which was verified because they used to have these competitions where strong men would compete.  Damn. 300. So crazy. In one arm now, the bent press. That's more than Justin can deadlift. It is, it is, that makes me sad. Well, hold on a second. I don't know. Here's my man card. I don't know a lot of Roy heads. Okay, maybe not probiotic, but I don't know a lot of juice heads that can do a full squat with 370. Seriously, like a real squat. Right, right. This guy's doing a one arm. Quarter squat, don't count. Yeah.   You're supporting that thing with your. Anyway, these guys did incredible feats of strength.  And I also read, I also started reading Vince Garanda who was a natural bodybuilder. He trained people. He was one of the first gym owners. So Jacqueline Vince Garanda and there's a couple other people, Joe Gold. These guys opened up gyms. They were the first guys open gyms. He had a gym in North Hollywood, right around, I believe in the 1960s. Do you know much about, so before that though, they had actual gymnasium.  Like it looked completely different. That's where you actually had Indian clubs. You had vertical ladders. You had ropes and climbing rings. And it was like for the community. Oh yeah. Now those existed at the turn of the 19th, at the end of the 19th century, early 20th century, but they weren't specifically designed for like building muscle, getting stronger. Right. It was more calisthenics and everyday function. Yeah. And it was kind of like this lifestyle type thing. And Vince Garanda had a gym, one of the first gyms. And a lot of the equipment he had in there, he made himself. And so I read, I would read stuff that he would write.  Like these guys were saying shit like, the old strong men were saying things like, don't like train hard, but don't train with maximum intensity or they would use other verbiage.  You know, train hard, but don't beat yourself up because you need to have energy to train again a couple of days later.  They were big on organ meats. And when they wanted to get trim, here's what they would say, avoid sweets, pastries, flours and sugar. This is what they used to say back in those days. It's pretty crazy. It's so crazy how forward thinking they were about them. It's so crazy. Vince Garanda, I had a book. Do you think that's because a lot of the science has been bastardized? Totally. By company, totally. Like back then it was all based off of what we could, you know, you get a group of buddies, you're all lifting, you try all these things and together we figure this out. Where now so much science is involved because so many of these companies now are. Wasn't it the sugar companies that came to lobby and they've just basically tainted all information of saturated fat? Like it was proven. The single worst thing that's ever happened to health and fitness was the whole saturated fat, high fat hypothesis that was totally flawed and it ruined, completely ruined the health of Americans and it derailed our understanding of nutrition by about 40 years because before that there were scientists that were saying things like. Yeah, thanks Food Pyramid. There were scientists that were saying things like high sugar, high consumption of flour, probably not good for you, you probably should eat. You know, fats, they're good for you. Cholesterol was never an issue. Vince Garanda wrote in one of these old books that I read, literally. One of the best ways to increase your natural hormone levels and he was talking mainly about testosterone was to eat a lot of eggs. He said eat a lot of eggs and you'll feel virile and strong. He actually said this and this is true.  It'll feel that way and I don't know how long that lasts cause the liver tends to regulate it. But you definitely feel it. So I would read all these things and then I think to myself like. Like why did we stray away from this? Well, it made me question a lot of the stuff that I had thought was kind of true. And so then when I, and that's really, that's part of the whole piece of me. How did you first find that? Like when did you like start reading that? I first was, let's see. Cause I never got into that.  Because we wrongly believe that if information is new, it's better. You know what I mean? We think like, oh it's cutting edge, therefore it's better. There's a lot of old wisdom and the funny thing is, and this by the way is not, this is true for any kind of wisdom. How many times now have we learned something in science and be like, oh fuck, it looks like they were right what they were saying 5,000 years ago after we made, like fasting. Fasting we made fun of for a long time in health and fitness. In fact, we were taught. I remember specifically being in nutrition courses and certification, personal training certification courses and they would literally make fun of fasting and laugh at it and say that's terrible, not good for you, make you fatter. Oh god, the opposite message we were giving, which is breakfast is the most important breakfast meal of the day. You know what I'm saying? You just gotta start off and you need all these nutrients as soon as you start your day. There is, you can't discredit wisdom that's lasted for thousands of years or that's been passed down. At least at the very least, and it's not always right, but at the very least it should point you in the right direction. So the first time I really started diving deep was, well first off my dad was a fan of Steve Reeves when I was a kid. Because in Italy, they had these, what were these Hercules movies were really popular and they were made in Italy. Steve Reeves just go to Italy and make them and so they were released in Italy and they were dubbed. But my dad, when he was a kid, obviously very poor, he would work and he'd give his mom money and every once in a while should give him a quarter or whatever the, whatever, you know, 500 Lire, middle elite, they don't use that currency anymore. And he would go to the movies and he'd watch Hercules movies and so when I was a kid, he would tell me about Steve Reeves and oh, you know, so I was already kind of like I knew who he was. So probably in my, I don't know, maybe my late 20s, by this point, I'd really started to examine workouts and I started to question things. And so I looked up Steve Reeves' workout and I said, oh, maybe I'll, maybe I'll take a look at his workout. And I read it and I looked at him like, that looks, you know, that's a full body three-day week routine. I thought that was for like beginners. Like that's what we were told, like this is not something advanced people do. And then you look at his physique and you're like, God, the guy looked incredible. He was strong. So I just started looking up old routines. We have the internet, so you can do that now. And I just started looking up all these old routines and finding all these consistencies. Like they all did certain things and they all had these feats of strength. And so I started questioning things and started applying them. And little by little, I realized that with the advice that they were giving is way more valuable than the advice I was getting, you know, currently from, you know, broided out pro bodybuilders and supplement companies. Yeah. How old are you at this point? I'm probably in my mid to late 20s. Oh, okay. So you're older and wiser. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I was thinking, if I found that stuff probably when I was like in my late teens or late 20s and I'm getting all this information from the company and all these other people that are teaching me to how to sell shit, I probably would have just discredited and moved along. Yeah.  I, this girl that used to work with me, she was a physical therapist. She did gut testing and hormone testing and great awesome girl. I learned a lot from her. Her dad came to visit. He was from the East coast, came to visit once and he came to our studio and I met him. He was a big dude, tall dude.  Yeah. Yeah. So that was him. And he was a bodybuilder in the... Then they shake your hand and was crushing. He was a bodybuilder in the 70s and 80s, right? He doesn't lift weights anymore, but you could tell he still got the remnants of it. So me and him hit it off right away. And then I started talking about like old time bodybuilders and he was surprised that I knew a lot of the not so, like more than just Arnold, I knew all the other guys. So me and him would just became buddies. And he's like, dude, I got all these old bodybuilding books. He's like, would you want them? He's like, I don't have a son. He's like, I planned on sending them to my son. My daughter's not into it. She's like, my son-in-law's definitely not into it. That's because her husband was a bit of a pansy. I don't like him. But anyway, that's a whole new story. So he sent me a box of all these old... He doesn't lift. All these old bodybuilding books. So I started... How cool, dude.  And I remember as a kid, seeing them- Don't you gotta be worth money too, man? I don't know, man. They're all from the 80s, 70s and 80s. Oh, they looked older than that to me. No, but they were written by bodybuilders who were from the 60s. Okay, so. So by this point they're like Vince Garanda in the 80s wasn't like competing and stuff. He was just a fitness guru. So I started reading these things and just the other night because I hadn't looked through them. I just thought they were cool. I would love to have those in the studio. We have to, I mean, I know Taylor ordered I think is on ordering right now the bookshelf for the studio anyway. So those gotta be on the bookshelf. All right, but we got it. I'll bring my Arnold encyclopedia too, but we got it. These are like... Yeah. These are like... Bro, we take care of, we got the alarm system in here and everything. Dude, they have to be. But anyway, I was reading one of them. Spilling the Luna on it. They break into our studio. They don't steal the cameras or anything. They still... I'm just saying, somebody spills coffee on one of those books. This is gonna be a fight. But anyway, I was reading them the other night and I was just like, I was annoying everybody in the house because every five minutes I was like, holy shit, look what he said here. Whoa, look what... Like Vince Garanda goes, trained to failure should be done seldomly and really only benefits the super genetically gifted steroid-taking bodybuilders. Wow, he stated that? Yeah. That's it. Those are his exact... Damn, we can't say we said that. Nailed it. I took a screenshot of it. Nailed it. I took a screenshot of it and he said that. He was advocating don't train to failure.  That's...  Yeah, that's so crazy. Isn't that cool? It is cool. Anyway. Well, I remember when you first, I mean, when you first sent over the first lead magnet that Doug had ever created with you and I think it was either the muscle switch one. I think that... Okay. Was it the muscle switch one? Either that or the forgotten exercise or something like that. Maybe you sent them both to me at the same time. But I remember, now mind you, I'm already 30 years old by now.     This is it. This is what people need to know. And I remember that's what triggered all of this. Like this, what's so nuts to me that how Mind Pump came about. And cause we were all on our, you know, different paths. I mean, we all didn't hang out on a regular basis. I mean, I was seeing Justin on a regular basis at that time because we were building the app and you and Doug were, you were training Doug and working on a side project. But we were all kind of set in our own businesses and careers and like, you know, you would. If you get a group of people who don't know, and I've talked about this before with people on Instagram because they'll send me a study and then the study will show that something that we've said is right.  And so people like to share those with me. And I'm sure we've been wrong and we've corrected ourselves. People just probably don't tend to share those. Hey, this shows that you're wrong. But you know, I get those. But people will send that kind of stuff and my answer is always like this. Like if you get enough people with integrity and who are really searching for objective truth at some, they may have different paths, but at some point the answer to one plus one is two. At some point people are gonna find the same answer because it's the truth. And that's, you know, what I found with you guys is like when we sat down and that's why those videos resonated with you. It wasn't because you learned something new is you were watching and you're like, oh fuck, he's on the same page. I remember when we sat down, we would talk about this stuff.  That's what I found. That's what I found. And so it's just all culminated. And I think people are just, if people are objective, they'll eventually come to that point and fitness is starting to kind of move. Oh, it's how we can predict it with some of our friends that are insane. Like we just know it's like, it's a give you a few more years, bro. You know what I'm saying? You'll come around. I remember being there. I remember being hard up on it like that, but you know, they'll come around eventually. But these old lifts, because more recently, I just told you, I put on, I've probably gained about seven or eight pounds of lean body mass, which is a lot of weight for me because I've been working out for so long, my body's pretty stable.  So my gut health is much better. So the fasting, the monthly fastings made a tremendous difference, like one of the best things I've ever done. And then I changed my workout. You know, that's funny. You got to highlight what you just said there too, that because I think most people that have not incorporated fasting, their biggest fear is to not be able to build or get bigger with that. And the fact that you do- Right, how do they look at it as a performance enhancement? Right, as you have a three day fast that you're doing and here's an example of like- Something that makes you healthier is gonna give you a better ability, it's gonna give your body a better ability to adapt.  If you're healthy, then those adaptations are just easier and that just makes sense. It's just, I don't think I have to argue that. And so my gut health is a lot better because of the 48, 72 hour fast that I do once a month. It's just made a huge difference.  Like Zercher squats, Zercher deadlifts. I've never done those on a very regular basis.  I've never done those on a regular basis. Like there's a few lifts that I've been doing now that when I first started doing them in my workouts, I wasn't super good at them. So like Zercher squats, I started with 135 because I wasn't good at them. My form would break, I just wanted to perfect them. You know, now I'm, I should be able to Zercher squat three plates here and I feel like in the next month or two because I'm getting better at it. But you know, when that happens, what happens? You build muscle. I don't remember how much I got up to. Well, I remember we started- Were you doing them consistently? Yeah, so when we, the Zercher and Z-Press are probably the two most- That one too, I started doing. Unique movements that I wasn't doing in the past that I've since we've been in mine pumps. So I'm trying to think of like all the things that like I've really incorporated since mine pump. Like there's a lot of things that we were all figuring out on our own before but there's some movements that I neglected, I think that I go, whoa, like I can't believe these weren't somehow in my routine but they just were overlooked as, they didn't fall into the category that what I thought fit what I was trying to do. That was always my thing, right? Like, oh, I don't do those things because I don't care about those things. I'm not an athlete or I'm not the power lifter. I'm not these people. So why would I ever train this exercise? And so you stay in this, the irony of that is- And the other thing, you don't give it a chance. You try it once. You're like, oh, that's kind of awkward. I don't want to do it again. And to me, this is most important to the lifter who's been lifting for a while.  But when you're guys like us or you're somebody who's been training for years and years and years pretty consistently, like making sure you're introducing one, these other movements and then missing these big, huge ones like the Z-Press or the Zercher, like they're just weird and unconventional and they're not popular. So they've, but in the fact that- It's so funny, cause that's exactly what I focused on and that's what drew me into that whole world and all those different lifts was that nobody was doing them.  You know, I don't know what it is about it. Maybe it's just like this punk rock thing.  Well, no, you share something in common with me, which is I don't like to go down the beaten path. I don't want to be like everybody else. So I'm already searching to be different. Yeah. And when you find out that different is better. Yes. You feel even more passionate. That was so crazy. It was eye-opening and I remember that because even in the Gold's Gym setting, I was training clients out of there and I was real good friends with a lot of the bodybuilders and you know, like I would take some of my clients to like more of a bodybuilder routine and like focus on aesthetics, but I started incorporating like Olympic rings and kettlebell presses and all these different and it would get all this attention. And so I was like, oh, business-wise too. This is great, right? I'm drawing, you know, eyes and I'm getting attention for this, but then my clients started to get like stronger and they were able to build, you know, good muscle, solid muscle that stayed and it didn't really click until later I started really training like that for myself and adding zurchars, adding these really unique lifts and different things in it. Man, it took my body to new levels as far as strength. And so, I mean, I've been in that, I've been in that mentality for a long time to where now I'm almost in the opposite of coming back to kind of more traditional type of, you know, hypertrophy training. It's funny because again, it's that old wisdom. Exercise or resistance training used to be about 100% about results. Which exercises are gonna make you the strongest and then which exercises are gonna build the most muscle and then something happened where it became how to make this easier.  Gyms were a massive waste of money. Oh, they were like a private club back then. Yeah. They were like a group, a small group of people that were weird and different. Super serious people back then, yeah. That's it. And so gyms were like, how are we gonna make money and we need to attract the average person? And one of the things they did was making it easier. And so a lot of these exercises fell out of favor, but I'll tell you what right now, like in terms of like building muscle, because I like some exercises blow me away in terms of how functionally make me windmills, for example, you know, windmills, they're not massive muscle builders, but boy, do they increase mobility and control in your core and they're great. And it's now a staple in my routine. It's like opening a communication channel that never even existed there. So now you can brace in certain angles and situations, you place your body in with loaded weight. So it's like a course is gonna contribute.  Like if the exercises I'm gonna tend to build muscle. I used to always say, I'm all show, no go. You remember that, Justin? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all show, no go. And I used to say, hey. I used to make fun of you for that. Right. All my trainers used to tease me that. That's for the birds, dude. I just got to look good. You know what I'm saying? Especially the minimum viable dose, right? Yeah. That whole mentality, I just didn't ever clicked me.  What did you say when I get naked and about to have sex, a girl doesn't ask me how much I could bench? That's right. That's exactly what I used to say, dude. And is that not true or what? That's a good argument.  Amongst the bros, you know. And you got some decent numbers. I'll tell you what, dude. There's a few exercises that now I'm placing up at the top for muscle, actual muscle builders. It's Zercher Squats.  That's that real world strength right there.  Never thought that would build muscle in my upper back the way it's starting to put muscle on me. Like I'm putting, I'm discovering new like exercises. And the funny thing is, again, you go back 100 years.  These kinds of lifts, you know what I mean? That old wisdom.  No, it's fun, man. It's fun to kind of look back and see like who had it all right. And we just, I don't know. We just didn't, the message wasn't spread.  So it just didn't gain momentum. But you know, true wisdom, it sticks, man. It'll come back. I have a lot of guilt that lives with me because of all the clients that I train. I know, cause all the clients I train, I just didn't, you know, it's, and I thought I was good though, you know what I'm saying? I really thought, and I'm sure if you asked them. They found value in you. Yeah, no. I know I provided, I did that.  But I feel like, man, I could spend half the time with someone and give them so much more value than what I could back then because a lot of what I was preaching and saying back then is so different through how I communicate. I mean, I was just literally talking to my cousin. We were down in Pleasanton yesterday.  He's now 26 years old, I think.  And this is the one that I trained in up for a show. So he's competed before. So he's gotten in phenomenal shape and everything that. He's an ex-athlete, played collegiate level football.  I remember that. So he's definitely, he understand, I've taught him everything that he needs to know to get himself in shape.   I said, man, let me tell you, I said, I didn't have my Fitbit on right now. And I had it on then.  And I was, he's like, yeah, I was like, how often do you look and pay attention to your steps? And he's like, never. I'm like, listen, you have no idea. And I know you hear the show and you hear us. And he's like, it's neat, that important? I'm like, listen, dude, you have no idea how inactive we have become as humans and it's so easy. And I still have, this happens to me all the time. Yesterday I had to go to the gym and actually had to do my first bout of like real cardio on the elliptical because I sat the entire day, it was six o'clock at night and I had 1500 steps. And people don't real, like the average person should be moving at least about 10,000. And the difference between 2000 and 10,000 is like over a thousand calories in my day. And I, so, and guess what you also do when you're sedentary, you make more poor choices as far as food. You know, people should do this. You put on a step tracker and then walk until you hit 1,000 steps and realize that is nothing. Oh, it's nothing. It's nothing. You're literally sitting down all day. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, most people, most people do that. Because we're working, our brains are working, you know, and maybe our fingers are moving. And so there's a little fatigue. Yeah, yeah. Our headache or stress, I'm stressed all day. Oh my God, I got home, I gotta sit down. Right, so you feel exhausted. And so why I love tools like the Fitbit or Apple Watch or things like that is just for the reminder. The awareness. Yeah, the awareness. It just helps me look down. I don't, everyone keeps asking me like, oh, what do you do when it's, I'm like, I don't use it like that, dude. And who cares about the accuracy as long as it like is consistent, right? Exactly, that's all I care about. I wanted to give me feedback just so, because I really easily can think I was busy and working real hard because I feel that way. Because I feel exhausted.  So I feel like I ran a marathon, but I really haven't even moved more than 1,000 steps. And so I was telling him, I'm like, stop overthinking this. So you're not, we're not getting you ready for a show right now. You just don't want to get fatter. You're getting out of shape and you can feel yourself that way and you're having trouble being motivated and you're expecting yourself to jump back into these bodybuilder workouts that you and I were doing when we were getting you ready for a show, which remember, we were training for over a year and a half before that happened. You know, I built you up to that. And think about it this way. We just had Kristin Ulmaran and she was talking about fear and emotions and how they get stored in the body. And if we don't let them out or if we're not in our bodies, then they tend to erupt in interesting ways. Like, you know, everybody knows if you suppress feelings or suppress emotions, they tend to explode in ways that maybe you aren't healthy or whatever. Now think about it this way. Think about all the energy that you, any motion that your body starts to store that we ignore and think about how exercise and movement allows your body to release it and express it and to feel it because. So why we always feel so great after a lift load. That's right. Nothing puts you in your body and what I mean by that is sometimes, here's the thing, there's times when you need to be in your head and there's times when you need to be in your body and there's a very big difference between the two.  When you're working out, you're feeling your body, it hurts, pain is a great way to take you out of your head, by the way. You feel pain, you can't do anything, but feel pain and there's a good pain when you exercise. So now you've got people who are not active at all, we're in our heads all day long, that definitely is contributing to a lot of the issues that people are having.  Children are like many representation, many clear black and white representations. Humans become much more complex as we become adults. Like there's all these complexity with our emotions and this happened in my past.  With kids, you can clearly see what happens when they're not able to express their body, when they're not able to be in their body. Have a kid sit down all day long and just try and think all day long or just try and not move, what do you get? You get a lot of symptoms that look like ADD or ADHD or rambunctious we used to call it or whatever. So you can see that happens to adults too, we just don't express it as clearly as children do. So that's why I think sometimes why I get so frustrated or I don't like the hardcore hype around the motivation thing is because- It's so temporary. It is so temporary and it can be daunting for somebody who's been so busy and working and so out of shape for so many months or so many years to think that you gotta get after it and they get all this hype and they go in and they crush it and it's like, dude, I was looking at my cousin and I said, listen, bro, let's say for the last month or six months, you've only been averaging two to 4,000 steps a day. You haven't lifted any weights really whatsoever. Do you know what a huge accomplishment it would be this week if you just moved from 2,000 steps a day to 8,000 steps every single day and go do at three days, go to the gym and just squat for three sets and then go home? Like that would be like your body will see and start to totally change. Any more than that would be counterproductive considering. Right. You know, I just had this exact conversation yesterday. Me and Jessica were hiking over there at Quicksilver, which is an easy hike or whatever and we're doing this loop and down the hill because we're walking uphill, down the hill towards us, this lady is running and she's probably early 30s. So she's relatively young.  Her biomechanics, I mean, look, here's the deal. I've been in fitness for over 20 years. I know what good movement typically looks like. I know what bad movement typically looks like. I can tell when somebody's well versed in something just by watching them move and she was, her mechanics were off. She was painful, just coming down and then I watched her as she passed us and I told Jessica, I'm like, if only she knew how counterproductive she was being. I get 100% with, I would bet money, I would bet money right now that that woman recently decided she was gonna lose weight and she wasn't really hugely overweight. Maybe, you know, probably 10 pounds, 15 pounds. I could tell you right now with 100% assurance she probably made the decision a month ago or two months ago and said, that's it. I'm gonna start running. I wanna lose weight. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm motivated, I wanna get in shape and I'm watching her and I'm thinking like, so counterproductive, her biomechanics are bad only because she's never run consistently or never learned how to. She's got probably bad recruitment patterns. It's way too intense. I could tell by looking at her. Well, here's the correlation with the motivation. Like I think that the majority of people, that's what they think they have to do. I know. And so, and we keep getting these people voicing like, no pain, no gain and making it all this mental discipline piece to it where that's the driving mechanism that we all have to achieve this mental fortitude and we have to power our way through it when in fact, you see somebody like that and the counterproductive efforts they're putting into it, it sucks. It sucks as trainers for us to see that because you know how much, how many little screws you could tighten up and get massive results from it versus just grinding yourself into the ground. And make it more enjoyable. Yeah, having fun and sustainable. Because how many people, think about it this way, how many people start working out and stop working out? You know what I mean? Of course, of course that woman's gonna quit. If she doesn't quit, I will applaud the fact that she's incredibly tenacious but I'll bet you right now, I bet anybody that that woman that I watched for sure is not gonna stick for it with it longer than a few more months, maybe a year tops, because either she'll hurt herself or she's gonna find, why am I putting so much effort on my body that I was fine? That's what always, they hit a hard plateau and it's a very easy decision for almost anybody.  Like that's the thought process. That's what I'm saying, if people only knew that, if people only treated working out like we treat other skills, like, if you're listening right now and you haven't worked out for consistently, and when I say consistently, I mean for longer than a year, okay, I know people say, oh, longer than three months, no. A year, it takes you a year to get moderately proficient at working out resistance training, okay? That's just the bottom line. Did you guys agree? Yeah, I would say at least that, yeah, at least that. So if you haven't worked out for at least a year consistently for a while or never and you're hearing me right now, compare it to this, imagine this, you've never played a day of baseball in your life, or you've never played consistently for a length of period of time basketball.  And if you do, how do you think you'll perform?  Well, exercise is treated just like that. Not only is it a skill you have to learn, but it also gives your body the ability to adapt over time.  Yeah, I wish we looked at workouts as practice, and then every now and then you compete, right?  You pick something fun to do, or you just challenge yourself and you press the weight a little bit. It's so funny you make that point, because you just describe CrossFit, bro. Yeah. What? That's what CrossFit is.  True, that's how that's structured. But sometimes, that part I agree with. I ran into Buddymind Jerry at Gold's last night, and we were talking for a while. Oh, I know the trainer? Yeah, yeah. I think he's a cool dude. Yeah, and he's a badass, he's getting ready for masters, he wants to work with him at Gold's. Really, really good dude. He's one of the trainers, there's only a couple at Gold's that I would watch that I knew what they were doing. Yeah, he's CSCS, and he's got his CrossFit stuff.  So if you're listening, Jerry, much love. But we were talking and he was like, he's like, we were talking about CrossFit and the regionals that's coming up and all this stuff like that, and my other buddy Neil Maddox, and we're going back and forth, talking stories and stuff, and you could tell he was about to start sharing about CrossFit and he's like, well, I mean, I know how you feel about CrossFit. And I'm like, no dude. With the caveat right there. Yeah, right, right. And I was like, no dude.  But I think we've also mentioned on the show plenty of times that it's really come around. I mean, since we've evolved dramatically. Yeah, and there's better coaches now and there's people that see it, and there's bad ones just like there are at anything else, right? But I said, man, and I looked where he was walking on the treadmill, I'm talking to him. And I said, I pointed over the squat racks, right? I'm all, I mean, I really believe that that's because of CrossFit right there. I said, I've been in this industry for over 15 years. And for the first 10, I can honestly say there was probably months that went by and I didn't see a single person even use our single squat rack. Did you ever see a full good squat? Never, never, never, right? Even the guys that, even the bodybuilder guys would come through the gym every once in a while and they would do the squats. They weren't even doing full squats. And then I never saw deadlifts. No. I mean, I didn't learn how to deadlift till way later, dude. Or any Olympic type lifting? Never, in fact, it was banned in most gyms. That's right, yeah, I was never allowed to do any of that. I remember that now because we had a couple of platforms when I was in college and I was training for athletics and with the team, but I would never, ever see any kind of equipment like that available in one of these commercial gyms. God forbid. The first time I actually ever saw a real squat and a real deadlift was when I was a kid at the Y and there was a group of old, they were probably, they were old, I say old, but probably late 40s, early 50s, power lifters who were squatting and deadlifting and that really piqued my interest. And then I didn't see it for a long time and then I worked at, when I worked at 24 hour fitness, I had a district manager, Simon, forgot his last name, English Bulldog, I used to call him, no, not that guy. As funny as you said that, I almost said that.  And I walked back and I'd never seen anybody do a full squat, let alone a full squat with, I think he had like 500 pounds on the bar. It was like an incredible amount.  Throwing some weight on there. Yeah, and I remember him just seeing, I was like, and I remember watching him because the way he worked out was so different. The way I understood lifting weights, besides that experience I had with power lifters at one time was like, bodybuilders, like they're getting a pump, typically cutting reps a little short, doing lots of machines and here's this guy and they'll typically do like three sets of an exercise and then just do a lot of exercises. He spent, I don't know, an hour and a half squatting. That's all he did and he would do like a set of like two or three reps, rack the weight and then kind of wait and chill and sit on the bench and do another one. I remember watching him be like, is that how you supposed to work out? It was tripping me out, but that was the first time I'd ever seen anything like that. I don't even remember anything like that. The first time I ever seen anybody squat like three plates, it was a huge deal and that was like, I was close to 30, dude. I was close to 30 years old before I ever even seen another in person, right? Everyone's seen strong men shit on TV and so that when you were growing up, but like, I never saw someone squat three plates in person until I was almost 30 years old. Yeah, thinking back, it was when I was trying out for San Jose State's football team and we all had to test out on our squat, our bench and I think it was overhead press and no, I think it was clean. So I think it was, yeah, it was squat, overhead, or clean anyway. So basically there was a guy there that just he had put on over 500 pounds and I'd never seen it done before and same kind of reaction where he got super low too because they standardized it so at least he had to go to parallel and so they'd have somebody there actually checking it and I've seen a lot of people fake heavy weight like that before but I'd never seen a legit squat like go all the way down to depth with 500 pounds and this short stocky dude just fucking like blew my mind right there. So impressive the first time you see it.  He would just run through people and obviously you see that as he's that strong and he's actually applying those forces into the ground of course he's gonna run people. I used to freak people out when I was a general manager because I would deadlift four plates which is not that impressive for a guy I was probably weighing 220 and I would do him every once in a while just now I'm naturally strong at him and I put four plates on a deadlift and even the bodybuilders would oh shit bro that's a lot of weight because nobody deadlifted. Nobody would look twice if I just pull four plates now. I don't even know when I saw it. Yeah, deadlifts never, I didn't see him anywhere. I didn't see a deadlift in a gym ever, ever. And I didn't teach it either. It was one of those ones that because I knew I wasn't mechanically proficient at it I didn't feel comfortable teaching it. So I didn't teach it for almost till I was 30. The only lift anybody cared about was bench press. Yeah, yes, dude. Anybody gave a master that for a minute. Yeah, that was my thing. You got up to 400 pounds. Yeah, yeah. That's a pretty impressive, especially because you're natural lifetime. Did you get up over 400 fuck? I did, I did. I did 370 or something like that. Once in college and then when I was at NorCal I was, that's when somebody first gave me the smelling salts. I was like, I was on a tear though.  I saw a guy once and he was, this was the craziest thing I ever saw. He probably weighed 175 pounds or something like that. And he had four plates and a quarter on each side.  There's no way he's gonna lift that, no way.  And I thought he was gonna do one of those like little quarter reps.  I figured, oh, he's, he competes is what he does.  I remember that just tripped to this day. I can remember what he looked like as it tripped me out.  You remember Isaac Sapoaga? After a basketball game, he puts, I think it was like six or 700 pounds on the bar and just starts wrapping bench press. Like right in front of us. I was most impressed. I have a very, very vivid memory the first time I ever met him. And it was at Santa Teresa and we both happened to be hitting off. Who is this guy? Isaac Sapoaga. He's a lineman for the 49ers. Not anymore. He's, he's over. Wait a minute, is he a Simone dude? Yeah.  He used to work out when I was there. Yeah. He's been around. He grew up in this area. I know exactly who you're talking about because you can't miss him. Because he would lift silly. Like I thought they were fake. Yeah. Like there's no way. He moved the big weight so smooth and fast. Yeah. It looked like when you're warming up with like 135. Well, so, yeah, this is cool. We both were hitting arms on like the same day, right? Or I was doing like this bicep, tricep super set and he was and we both had the benches right next to each other. We both just happened to be doing like dumbbell skull crushers. And I go to, to grab like, I think I was up to like 30s or 40s. And I'm doing, you know, skull crushers with the dumbbells. And he goes over and he grabs the 70s. And I don't, at this thing, I think he was doing bench, right? So I'm like watching him in the corner of my eye of my resting between sets.   He just racks those and grabs the 90s. This is warm up. Bro, this is warm up. And he goes right into the 90s, like right afterwards, dude. But and he's pumping these things out like for 15 reps, dude, like full range, everything. So crazy. And I remember just being in awe of seeing it. I mean, that was before we played, remember when we played ball with all those guys? Because we closed down the gym and we played with six or seven of the 49ers. And I remember just seeing, that was the first time I had ever experienced the people that athletic and me competing against them. Now I had guys that we had a couple of friends that went pro when we were in high school to the NFL. I had some buddies that were pretty good ball players and hung in there in college, but not at this level. And not that many at the same time and like competing against them. And it was my fur, and that's where I honestly, like when that like the genetic thing really went off in my head, like, there is a difference.  Until you literally are there and you see somebody actually do it.  Well, just don't understand it. Right, because you've never seen anything like that before. And I have never seen it again. 4-3 happened one time and I was at a combine and this kid, I have, dude, I just have this vivid memory of when he got up to the starting line, he's all in position. And then right when he made his first move, it was like, boom! And he was gone.    Like, I feel like Deon Sanders, he was like a 4-4, maybe he did a 4-3. I don't know what he ran. I don't know his numbers. You would know Call My Numbers better than I would.  Wasn't Barry Sanders like a 4-3 runner? I don't know if Barry was. Barry was known for his ability to cut, like left to right, better than almost anybody ever and would argue with you. His movement, it was all about his movement. Barry Sanders. Yeah. I just want to contribute to this one. Although he was fast, arguably the most athletic. You're fast, the fastest players in the NFL are typically your wide receivers in your corners. So those are the guys. Deon was one of the fastest in the game for a minute. And I don't know who the fastest in the game is right now today. I should know. I know I've heard it. I don't know off the top of my head. There was a guy back. Dad, would you Google fastest NFL player today? Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah. I want to watch their 42. I was at the Arnold classic. This is probably, I'm probably in my late twenties, early thirties, first time I'd ever been to it.  And when I say skinny, I mean probably 140 pounds. Oh, yeah.  Yeah. He's not, there's nothing. Like there's no, there's no muscle on the guy. He's just really skinny and wiry. He has an arm wrestling table set up and always arm wrestling, a line of people. Remember, this is the Arnold classic.    Not a single person. Oh yeah. Tirey kill. Yeah, there it is. Everybody outweighed him by probably 50 to 100 pounds. 4.24, Justin. That's fast. That's fast. What? 4.24. That's fast. That exists right there. That's real. So he had a line of guys. Meat heads, roid heads, everybody. And just one after another. Boop, next. Boop, next. And he was just beating. Nobody beat him?  How long was his arms? He was a, if you looked at the guy, I mean. Who does he look like that we know? Oh no, so I can picture this dude. Bro, I don't know. Like a Mike Salemi? No, Mike Salemi looks like he, this guy was just like a kind of. He's white, he's thinner than Mike.   Now you could see by his hand and his, he was like, it's almost like he was made out of cables, like he was just so strong. And there was this big dude, I remember this, after about 30 of them, after about 30 of them, there was a big guy in line. So me and my buddy Ryan were sitting there and were like, I waited, I wanted to watch. I'm like, let's wait and see until that guy gets up to him. So he's going through like 20 people or so.  They go, they say, go, he hits it hella hard.   He's getting him.  It was so cool. He's like an X man. All this sports talk, you guys just reminded me of something. Doug, you got to look this up. So check this out. This is happening these playoffs right now. So in the NBA playoffs, they have this, and I believe Intel, yes. Intel is the company that's doing this and it's VR and it's there, they have it's the cameras are set like from court side seats.  So cool.  So brilliant. It's so brilliant. That is so. I already have Katrina on it. I'm like, we have to be, we have to get this. I know. I would have to get this. Oh my God.  You know what that's gonna do to for sports? Do you know what that's gonna do for all sports? Oh that brings a lot more exclusivity to it. Can I tell you something? I don't watch sports, you guys know this. Not a big deal to me. I would for sure watch sports like that. To watch these athletes like.  So court side seats are on the low end, especially for playoffs. Yeah, you're sitting at that level, right? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. You're not only are they. Are you on the floor? Yeah, you're on the, that's floor probably. This is floor. So the ones I, you saw me that I just, I was four rows back from court side. And there's a huge difference price wise from where I was sitting and court side. It goes, it goes up about $3,000. Feet are on the actual court, yeah. So you're trying, so how cool is this for some, for anybody who may never, ever experience in their lifetime what it's like to sit on, sit court side. And you'll probably be able to do that. I'm sure it's like a monthly membership or what fee, I mean. I'm thinking about, you know what I'm thinking about? That's so cool. I want that for football too, man. Oh yeah. Jack into their helmets. Think about what this is gonna do for fitness. For reals, think about that. You could put these glasses on and take a class. Oh yeah.  Think about that. It's too distracting, dude.  Or naked chicks. You could look around. Yeah, that's what you're gonna end up doing. That's like a little pop-up comes in. Bro, VR is literally, this is what's gonna happen with VR, Adam.  They'll get sneakier with the ads too. It'll be like an actual girl just kind of walking up like, hey. Which one of you was telling me the porn thing now that they have where the girl puts the little thing inside of her, the vibrator inside of her?   Oh yeah, you could like shock her like, ooh. No, yeah, we have vibrator, you know? Yeah, so we were, that's how. By tips. That's how he makes, that's the best, whoa. That's a fast one, just slow it down. You'll numb it. So someone sent me a message that there's these sites where girls, they do the webcam. So it's like a live webcam or whatever. And then they will put a vibrator inside them. And so you can see everything. And every time somebody pays, it will vibrate, the vibrates. So brilliant. So now you've got all these people, you know?   Exactly. Oh, but, exactly. So brilliant. Oh my God. Oh, it's so brilliant. That's crazy. Yeah, that's insane to me. Yeah, but I mean with VR, I think probably 90% of it's gonna be to porn for sure. So anyway, you saw it, did you guys see that porn hub is now taking cryptocurrency, right? Yeah. I saw that. Of course they are. That's so perfect. Obvious, right? Obvious. Obvious. You don't want people to know what you're paying for there. So, you know, someone was arguing with me the other day. Still people arguing about that. Oh my God. Oh, the government's choosing so hard to go after it. Tried a lot more popping up. I keep seeing it.  Try all you want. They'll just keep coming. I don't think they can't stop it, but it's funny how they try to go after it. I just read an article the other day that said that the opiate epidemic, the opiate crisis, they're blaming partially on cryptocurrency because drug dealers. Stupid! Because drug dealers use crypto. Opiate addiction's been going on forever, bro. But what they're trying to say is, we can't catch the guys as easily now because they're using cryptocurrency.  They will say they took, when was it like back when the CIA actually spread that back into circulation here in the US? What? I just remember seeing something like that. It wasn't even a conspiracy. Like they had proved that they brought it back. Yeah, they brought back opium.   Yeah. Literally, that could have completely changed my life if I could have got thrown in jail for that. Like that is crazy. I mean, it's crazy that we do- If the desired outcome is to really help the person, throwing them in jail is only setting them up for failure down there.  Jail needs to be for people who are dangerous to others or to other people's property. That's it. So it makes sense to put somebody- Yeah, somebody's sitting on OxyCottons all day. It's not a danger to anybody else. No, no, no, no, no, you're not fucking- Now if they proved to be- Put a little boot on them. If they proved to be a danger to other people, if let's say they drive under the influence or they hit their wife or they're violent because of their drug abuse or whatever. Well, you punish the crime, which is hurting other people or stealing other people's property or whatever. You don't punish what you did to yourself. That's weird. Think about that for a second now.  Consider this for a second. You cannot do whatever you want to your body and your mind. Just think about that for a second. Like I'm an adult, I'm an adult man. Excuse me, I live in my body. Nobody else lives in this body. It's my body, right? I can't do- My body, I do what I want. I can't do whatever I want to it. How, how accepted that is, how everybody thinks that's like not a big deal. That is a major assault on humanity. Huge assault on- Oh, our liberty and our freedom, man. Well, I mean, and I'm using humanity because when I say liberty, a lot of people don't understand what that means.  So in reality, who owns you? Yeah. You know what I mean? And you're born into that.  That's crazy. Do you think that the like tattoos and piercings and things like that play into that as pushback? You think that's our natural way of kind of pushing back of like constraints on that?  I'll pierce, I'll tattoo, cause you can't, there's no laws on that. So here I go. Subconsciously, that was part of it for me. I believe there's, there's, there's statistics. There's statistics. It's like gymnastics, but it's statistics, okay. I know there's, I know there's statistics on, you know, people that get tattoos that correlate with this. I know I've read this some, in some cycle. There's one thing that I've read about tattoos and body modifications and that the more that someone will have with them, it's strongly correlated to trauma. Yes. So childhood trauma is very strongly correlated to, to, and doesn't mean it's, by the way, that doesn't mean A, it's a hundred, it's connected. It's just correlated. Right. Some psychologists will say it is connected based on the evidence. And B, it doesn't mean it's a hundred percent of time. Like if you see someone with a lot of tattoos and piercings, it doesn't mean ever. It just makes sense. I know I ran out when as soon as I turned 18, I ran out and put the worst tattoo on me, right? The only one that I don't like on my entire body. And it really was, it wasn't because I really wanted a tattoo. Like all the rest of my tattoos have all this meaning, the meaning behind my first tattoo was more of like an FU to my parents and the idea that it's like, I can do whatever I want to myself. I'm my own man. Yeah, I'm an individual now. And I think that's what it always is. Like something that I, it keeps coming to the forefront. It's like, I want to be an individual. Stop, you can't stop me. So this is a great topic, right? Because so Doug just pulled up a study. This is another one that I read that says, the role of sexual abuse and the frequency of body modification. So any kind of trauma is so, correlates with the more body modifications that you tend to do your body. But here's the thing though, that we need to consider. Does that mean that all or any body modifications are correlated or does it mean that it's more than what is societally acceptable? So what I mean by that is, I have one tattoo on my upper back.  If this was 50 or 60 or 70 years ago, I would be like, whoa, that motherfucker's a radical or what the fuck, that's so crazy, right? So I think to be more accurate, when you see someone with a level of body modifications and tattoos that far exceeds what is considered- Past the threshold of society, right? Then I think that's probably- Especially face tattoos. Yeah, like today if you have maybe, maybe 15 years ago. What do you think it is that drives it? Now obviously there's always exceptions to the rule and they're unique, but for a majority, what do you think is driving that then? I think part of it may be so, and this is me speculating, but self-harm is correlated to or connected to. So maybe the pain aspect, like hurting yourself. The other part of it is maybe not feeling like everyone else or displaying how you feel or having a feeling in need to express yourself. Whereas in the past, maybe you felt like you couldn't express yourself. And these are all just my speculations, but I do think that there's a societal norm. And like yesterday, I was going for a walk outside and there was just two kids walking by. The one kid had, the girl had pink hair and the dude had a mohawk with green hair. I don't even blink today when I see that.   Yeah, yeah. It's kind of interesting, right? Yeah. So I think it's above what people consider normal, then you may be able to say, okay, this person's trying to stand out. Isn't that weird? I feel like that's almost a new standard amongst a lot of youth I've been seeing lately as far as like, oh wow, that's weird.  And then right next to him, this guy's in a skirt with like fishnet gloves on.  Really, it's just that it's interesting. Yeah, they have to like push each other and like it's almost like, I feel like the pendulum's gone so high up in that direction. It's gonna come the other way back. It's, I 100% predict this, that within the next 10 years. The radicals will be wearing like ties and have their hair up.  Which is not as smell good. I think if we, I think if we allowed people to do whatever they wanted, so long as they didn't hurt anybody or steal from anybody. So whatever you want to yourself is fine. If whatever you wanna do with other people, if they agree and their adults is fine, as long as you're not hurting people or applying force them. I think if we applied that, we would see less dysfunction because I think like, because I look at it this way.  And the most, let's use sex for example.  You go to some of these countries where it's illegal to have sex at a wedlock. You can get killed for it. Homosexuality is punishable by death.  They treat sex very extremely repressed.    Maybe more at first, but then eventually people will start doing less. At first it'll be more. At first it'll, I think we're gonna have a great example right now in the next 10 years in this is, we are, look how accepted cannabis has become. Oh, cannabis use with teens is actually starting to drop. It will. First time in decades. Yeah, it's not cool anymore. That's right. It used to be so cool and rebel to get high. It was such a cool and rebel thing to do now. Now it's like, oh, it's lots of it's luster. It's like, I mean, now it makes me slower. It makes me lazy. You start looking at all the bad side of it now, right before it was like, oh, it's so dangerous, it's so cool. You know what I'm saying? I'm being such a rebel by doing it.  Like, oh my gosh. It's not a big deal anymore, man. And so I 100%, you'll see a spike at first because the people that were really scared to touch it or try it will and experience it. And more and more people will, and more and more people will think like, it ain't that big of a deal for me or maybe it doesn't affect me the same way as it affects my buddy who loves to do it all the time.  I can very much so see if I allow myself to smoke on a regular basis, I'm unproductive. I'm way more productive, completely sober and nothing in me whatsoever and feeding my body right, training and exercising. I'm way more sharp.  I take care of the rest of my body way better. But then I also see, you know, sometimes it's really nice for me to be able to take the edge off. It's nice for me to, you know what? I think a little bit differently. Right. And it's got some, it can be abused and overused but, you know, it's got real health, potential health applications, like for reals. I mean, I'll tell you what, I was- That's what makes it cool. Oh dude. And it is what makes it cool is that if you think of all the, you know, quote on quote, you know, drugs, right? Things that we've labeled as drugs. Well, you know, it only makes sense, you know, that we would treat something with this kind of potential the way we've treated it for as long as we have.  This is, these are the kind of propaganda that they would put out to get it originally banned.  I think, I forgot the name of a popular one on- This is all back in the Hearst days, right? The print media and- You would watch this, you watch this video and they're trying to depict what we does to you and this man smokes it and he kills this woman.  They didn't even know how people react. Like nobody who made this video, like hold on a second, that's PCP. Yeah, you were talking about the wrong thing here. I don't know what kind of weed you're smoking, but I've never seen anybody do that. You know, what's that call?  Refor Madness. Oh, I think I might have seen this one before.  But the health applications are crazy and the government has known about- I wanna see this, but I wanna see this in reefer. The year is 1938 and America's children are under siege. They're under siege from an evil so powerful, so frightful, so mind-buck, what did it say? Mind-numbingly dangerous. They made a movie about it. They're making fun of the trailer, yeah, Refor Madness. Oh, is this a movie? Refor Madness was a documentary on the dangers of marijuana. Look how they're acting, right? So watch, they're all starting acting like they're psycho because they- You have ego, right? Like, like, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. He's all touching himself. Ah, ah, ah, ah. You're smoking bath salts, buddy. That's what I'm saying, dude. This is a different drug. You're definitely not smoking. Oh, he just went crazy. He sees the paranoia. He's swatting at it. Yeah, he's losing his mind. Anyway, we can watch that after, but if you watch it, you'll see the propaganda. That's hilarious. Was it government created or funded movie to get people to never sex craze zombies? I don't know, that's kind of cool thing. Wow, does that happen? Yeah, like enforce us to kill, yeah. So that part, you know, we can not, we can do without that. No, well, so here's- Straight beating is what is most despicable danger facing our children today. It's weed. Yep, marijuana. What are you doing, dad? I'm getting high.  I'm raging.  It makes me go crazy. That's funny. So here's the thing with marijuana. First, they wanted to get rid of it because they was gonna compete with paper. Then they wanted to get rid of it because it was the counterculture drug. It's what the protesters were smoking, so they demonized it. And then they found out through that that some of the earliest studies done by the government showed that there was an anti-cancer effect, and we can get all conspiracy theory on that, but pretty sure, you know, if the pharmaceutical industry is as powerful as people say it is, that it would see something like that as a threat because it's a natural.   So cancer cells have a dysfunctional mitochondria, which is the energy producer and the engine of the cell. And cancer cells have a dysfunctional mitochondria. We know this because when a lot of cancer cells, when you take away glucose from them, they are unable to produce ketones and a lot of them die. This is why ketogenic diets for many cancers have anti-cancer effects because the cancer starve because there's no glucose.  What cannabinoids do is they cause the mitochondria to, through the increase in something called ceramide in the cell, they cause the membrane of the mitochondria to become more permeable and it basically burns itself out and explodes. And this doesn't happen with healthy cells and cannabinoids. Only happens with cancer cells. So what you're doing with cannabinoids and here's- Killing off cancer cells. Selectively, yeah. Selectively killing off- Targeting. Cancer cells. So crazy.  The cannabinoid is not toxic. It's the cancer cell that then becomes self-destructive. Is it like it competes with it and then explodes? No, it literally increases ceramide in the cell. That does something else causes the mitochondria to basically burn itself out and explode and it's a self-destruct mechanism that happens, which is supposed to happen in cells when they start to mutate. But cancer cells don't do that and that's why they're cancer cells because they don't self-destruct. So it sort of activates it when it's been dormant all the time. How crazy is that?  Have you read anything around that? Yes. So cannabis smokers have a reduced risk, and I don't know what the percentage is, but have a reduced risk of head, neck, and throat cancers. And this is with smokers. Smoke inherently has lots of carcinogens in them, all smoke.   And cannabis smoke is no different. We know this. This is why for years they said cannabis will cause cancer. It wasn't because cannabis caused cancers because they looked at the smoke and were like, oh, look what's in the smoke. There's carcinogens in the smoke. There's more carcinogens in pot smoke than there is in tobacco smoke sometimes, mainly because we don't use a filter and maybe for a couple other reasons. But what's happening is that the cannabinoids themselves are anti-cancer and they're so anti-cancer that they override the cancer causing effects of the smoke by a little bit to the point where if you're a regular... It's basically moot. Not only moot, you actually have a little bit of protection if you smoke. And now cigarette smokers, that smoke cannabis also? Less cancer rates also. So it actually protects against that. Now what this tells me the cannabis consumer is, well, shit, why don't I just use cannabis in a way that has less carcinogens so I can get more of the benefits, which would be vaping or ingesting. I just remembered when somebody had told me a long time ago the equivalent of one joint was basically like a pack of cigarettes. And so they must have just been comparing that to the carcinogens that it puts off in the smoke. Right. Okay. So here's the other thing. Let's say you were... And this is, by the way, this was a scientific article that I was reading. It's ceramide. Yeah, I'm right. So the... If you have the presence of cannabinoids in your system, low levels, let's say you take CBD and THC, you know, over, you know, kind of not regularly, but semi-regularly, right? So you have a little bit here and there. That should apply metabolic pressure on cancer cells and that you would have and just reduce risk. So if you have a little bit of cannabis here and there, you're creating an environment that's less likely to produce cancer cells because you're placing more metabolic pathways. Similar to how a ketogenic diet or fasting will do on the body. Both also... The reason why fasting is so... And both I feel should be treated the same way. Yeah. Just like I tell people, I don't think it's that beneficial to be fast, intermittent fasting every single day. I think you're far better off intermittently incorporating it into your routine, whether that's once a week or bi-weekly every now and then and stretching the fast out. I would recommend marijuana the same way too. Yeah. It's not something you want to smoke every single day and be high all the time, but it is something that... You know what? Maybe have it in your life for once in a while. I think CBD will be the one thing that people will be recommended to use regularly because CBD is non-cycle active. It doesn't attach to the cannabinoid receptors, the CB1 or CB2 receptor, but what it does seem to do is increase either the effectiveness or the amount or the receptors that your natural cannabinoids attach to or just increases circulating levels. So our bodies produce natural cannabinoids. And if those levels are low or your receptors get down-regulated or something happens with that, you're probably going to be susceptible to a lot of different things. In fact, they're coming up with a term for endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome. And so what CBD does is it seems to increase that natural amount in your system or increase the effectiveness or how it works. You're not quite sure. So this is why CBD's got all these medicinal properties and works on the cannabinoid system, but doesn't attach to the cannabinoids. Now I love, I'll tell you what, my prescription for me because I use cannabis largely medicinal. I don't definitely notice a positive effect on my gut and I use more of it when I need it and less of it when I don't. But I also sometimes like the effects of cannabis, I feel more creative or relaxed or whatever. If I have a nice amount of CBD and then I have, you know, THC it's like I get way more of the positives and way less than negatives.  And I just feel, you know, better as a result. Yeah, I noticed that too. I noticed when the ratio's even, right? One to one is what you typically go for. Yeah, yeah, I'll go one to one or sometimes even two to one. And I just feel better. Here's another cool study that just came out recently on how cannabis and caffeine affect the brain. So they kind, they, in some ways they counteract each other and in some ways they amplify each other. And so what these studies are suggesting is that CBD or even THC may be an interesting, like cool combination. Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed that. Have you noticed that? What do you feel from it? I just feel it, I don't know, more energetic I guess with the, with sometimes when you have like some good cannabis it's like, you know, you start getting more creative but you get like a little bit of the paranoia but you also get a little bit of like fatigue or like I guess not being motivated to move as much.  It's just like nice consistent energy. It's like you're, in my opinion, I personally, I'm more euphoric and clear. So I feel, so I feel like it enhances so it doesn't take very much. So like one of my favorite things in the world is on a Saturday or Sunday being up in Tahoe being on over on the lake or the water just and it not having anything that I have to do or would be anything sitting out on a deck or whatever and just enjoying the sunset or enjoying the view and a cup of coffee and two hits of a joint. And I am, it's just, it's a- Right is rain. Oh. Right, that is a yes. Right is rain. And then the spoon. And they're finding that they, that there's some synergistic stuff that's happening with them. And this study is kind of starting to make the rounds. There's definitely a unique feel to it though. Anybody that's ever- It's an interesting combination. Anybody that has ever had, I mean, we, I remember- Cannabis combines with a lot of- When we first started traveling and doing our tour, when we were down in Newport, you remember I did the post on the OG plus cold brew. When we were on that kick for a minute, like, there's definitely something there. There's something there that I think is pretty cool. It doesn't take very much. I think, I think where a lot of people make mistakes with cannabis is thinking that you need to have a lot of it. This is also why I'm so jazzed about what we're doing with dosis and stuff because they're the first pen to actually measure the dosage for people. So people can actually start to be a little more intelligent about how they- Dosage is brilliant. No, it's brilliant. It's brilliant because one of the big problems with cannabis is, as a medicinal for medicine, is that the dose is hard to gauge because if I'm smoking flour, which is the dried plant or whatever you call it, flour, it can be 20% THC. It can be 26% THC. It can be 28% THC. It can depend on how I inhale it, how it was lit, other cannabinoids, all the stuff. And so to treat it like medicine in the Western medicine sense is difficult because Western medicine tries to be precise. 300 milligrams of ibuprofen, 100 milligrams of this or one gram of that. It's hard to do with when you're smoking weed and so what dosis did is they- and I know exactly what they did. They looked at the inhaler model. So when you use an asthma inhaler, they're metered out dosis so that every dose is- It's more consistent. Very consistent. Three milligrams of albuterol or whatever dose they use.  And they patented it. Yeah, I know. It's brilliant. Have you guys seen the- Very small. Have you guys seen where we're going to be at with him? Just Taylor showed you? No. Oh, that's cool. So I was actually just reviewing that with him. So we go in two weeks, right? So next week we're in Austin. This is the one that's in San Francisco? No, no, no. Dosis is down- Down LA? Yeah, we're going down. I think we're on Malibu. Beach area. We've rented this fucking- This mansion and it's going to be a private party for about 30 people. And they're setting it up. So Dosis is setting it all up. Beautiful house, right? The layout's sick.  But it's- They have like a fancier name for bud tenders basically. You know what I'm saying? There's like health specialists up that I forget what they call them, right? Right. But they're going to be set up in the house with all the different- All the different strains and all the different kind.  Yeah, yeah.  And so we're going to be able to go around and just kind of like- Educate you on the true- The people that we invite there will be able to try it all out for free. And they'll be gift bags for people.  That's their company.  I start talking to them and then it's like, I'm asking you questions and I know more than you do about your product. You need to know more than I do. So you know this is about how Mark and I killed it, right? When we first got involved in all this stuff was we went around. So before we even started our first two cannabis clubs, I probably toured, I don't know, 20 or 30, somewhere in that range of clubs all over L.A. area primarily because that's where most of them were at. But at this time, the Bay Area, NorCal, nobody has them yet. This only L.A. has started off with the cannabis clubs. And we went to all of them and I remember telling Mark, like, dude, are you kidding me?  That's all that's going on here and it's ran that way.   Yeah, I'm just like, dude, they're trying to make this move into the direction of like a medical place. This is not like that at all. So when we started ours, like, I mean, we made sure there was no security. Like, we don't need security. Like, this is a, we don't need to do that. We'll have our cameras. We have all that stuff like that. Like, I'd rather just make this more welcoming for some seven-year-old lady who's going to come calling in here with arthritis one day and not make her freaked out.  When you start treating them and changing their life or helping them out with something like that and you make them feel comfortable about the process.  Yeah, you're going to have a bouncer there who's going to, you know, check their ID and look at them like, you better not move. So Mark, we used to, him and I used to dress sharp to work and clean-shaven.   The lobby was set up like a medical office. And so we did this and nobody was doing this yet. They all were super shady and backdoor. And that's part of what made us crush was once people found, and then you get people like Mark and I who were helping. And then we were like him or like me and him, both are like this where we get into something. We're going to dive deep into it. We're learning like crazy. So, you know, we were able to teach people what we knew, which was more than any other place I've been to. Because like you're saying, I go to these butt tenders and I ask questions and I'd be like, well, I can't learn anything from these fuckers. These guys don't know anything. There's been just stoner kids that wanted a job at a cannabis club. There's so much science that's involved and so many intricacies and it's a fascinating subject.  There was no treatments. There was nothing that Western medicine can do. It was done black and white. This person is not going to survive.  And so I went and I went crazy and I'm the kind of person that I can dive very deep into things that can become very fanatical about things when I'm into them. I find this subject fascinating, but on top of that, I was extremely motivated, extremely driven because I wanted to find something that would help this person who was very close to me.  I mean, people pray on people like that. Like you have no idea. So I'm reading all these things. And I was like, you're going to get the people that drink urine. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like this, I need, I need something with at least some kind of evidence, whether it's like lots of anecdote, like Chaga, for example, the mushroom Chaga, there's lots of evidence, anecdotal evidence from, you know, Chinese medicine and, you know, Eastern European medicine that Chaga helps with cancer. The funny thing is now we have studies that actually show it fights cancer. This is why you are so excited to get force-igmatic. Exactly. Exactly.  Exactly. So I, so Chaga, but then cannabinoids, I'm reading these animal studies and then I'm reading these population studies and I'm like, holy shit, this has, this is real evidence. And then I started digging deeper and I discovered that pharmaceutical companies are investing in, in pharmaceutical drugs that are based on cannabinoids as treatments for cancer and pharma companies are not, because that's billions of dollars.  No, they're spending huge money because they're having to do it overseas so they didn't get in trouble for all the laws over here too. Yeah. So you knew that it was fucking... And then Israel was doing all this science, a lot of the science coming out of Israel because they actually, they treat it, you know, much less stigma there than it is here.   Here's what's fascinating. It's not the plant of cannabis. I mean, yes, that's fascinating, but that's not what really blows me away. What blows me away is that we have this cannabinoid system in our body that we didn't know very much about. We only recently discovered some of these new, you know, endocannabinoids. That's fascinating to me. Now, of course, if you want to make it sound like... How large it is is fascinating. How it's like a circuit breaker in the brain. Check this out. The way neurotransmitters travel between synapses is from pre-synapse to post-synapse. Okay? That's how they... So serotonin goes through. It tells the post-synapse what to do or what the... So it's a signal sending from, you know, like I'm the mailman, you're the mail receiver. That's pre-synapse, post-synapse. Okay? Cannabinoids communicate retrograde. They go from post-synapse to pre-synapse. They go backwards. Now, why are they going backwards? Because they're regulating. Giving feedback. They're regulating. They're literally telling the pre-synaptic, you know, neuron. We need a little bit more of that. A little bit less of this. And so it's... It brings equilibrium. It's like a balancer in the body. That's why if you have... What are the things work like that so crazy? You know, the natural cannabinoid system. I don't know too many other things. I'm sure there are other things and I do know that there is some communication from post-to-pre, but the fact that cannabinoids, like that's directly how they work is fascinating to me and the fact that it's a regular and now it makes sense when you look at studies and you see this study shows that AIDS patients with a compromised immune system benefit and live longer when they use cannabis. Oh, but however, these studies over here show that people with autoimmune diseases or issues where their immune system is hyperactive, the cannabis brings it down. So on one end, it boosts the immune system. On this hand, it depresses the immune system. How is that possible? Well, don't we have self-regulating systems everywhere? You know, like even just pain. Like that's going to get me to stop what I'm doing. Yeah, I mean, it's just working with the bodies what seems to be one of the largest regulating systems in the body that keeps things in balance. And that's what's fascinating to me and that's why when you hear all these claims that cannabinoids have potential to do everything and you think, how can that be possible? Well, that's one of the reasons why it's possible. It's like, balances you out. If your immune system is depressed, it boosts it up. If it's too high, it brings it down.  I called this, you know, a long time ago. I told you guys, like, if we ever sell a supplement, it should be a cannabis-based, a cannabinoid-based one.  They're already starting to be a thing.  The only thing that I remember we all agreed on is just like, it still falls in the category with almost every other supplement. It's not, it's not even the top 10 list of things that are going to really change people's lives. When you talk about the things that we know that we can, and I think that was why we didn't. As far as- And it was super expensive. Oh yeah, we did. We looked into it. Probably going to take a while for that cost to go down. Super expensive. Because especially with CBD, you have to get it from hemp and that's a more expensive process. That's going to, that'll change though with like, well, we'll see though because how, what they do with regulation. Yeah, because you know, Trump said, Trump told his guys, we're going to find a path for the states that legalize it to let them do that. If you hear that, right? So it's like, the steps are- Yeah, because at first we were getting worried because he was coming after but now he's backing off the medical usage. No, that was his, the guy that works under him. I can't remember. So where the big regulations going to come in is here. So right now, the biggest breakthrough in like the underground world of cannabis is the process of making clear. And it's the finest- Shatter, clear. Beyond that. Oh, so this is- 100% pure. 99.9%, 99.9%. Is it clear? They call it clear because it's clear? Yeah.  I've never seen that. You've extracted everything. There is no plant matter. There's no garbage. There's nothing bad in it. It's completely pure. And so they- But they're turning it into a pharma drug. Yes. That's what they're doing. Yes. And so this is already happening on the black market but yet it's, and it's, people that are doing it, right? So this is the evolution of what we started years ago. And I know it's crazy. Like I bet people that don't understand cannabis and putty, earwax, and shatter, and all those things like that. Like the people that I was involved with in the Bay Area were the first to really start all that. And you know, we evolved much of that at our club way back when. And now I've seen, and I've watched now my cousin and family and friends that I know that are still in the industry evolving it even further. And they have these huge ops now that are producing this. So that will become the standard.  I mean, it's crazy. They're making it a pharma drug. That right there is what's going to, that'll be regulated heavily. 100%.   Yes. You have? Oh yeah. No, of course I have. I mean, I remember, I remember when that, I have no desire to, I remember when that first came on this. Well, you remember if I was, You were testing everything. Yeah. I was part of the people who started what you would dab. Like there was nothing to dab just 10 years ago. So when you, when earwax, putty, honeycomb, all the shatter, all this stuff started coming about. Now they, they were looking for other ways to burn it or smoke it. And it was such a hard thing to mess with. And then I don't know who came up with the idea of heating up a nail and then really, really hot. And then it vaporizes it and then you draw straight off of it. And that's this, this huge scene of dabbing exploded. Super, super, like it'll get your blood concentration of THC up faster and higher than anything. Well, to give you an idea, like I remember the first, you know, we were also the first to test all this stuff. So, when you look at the highest grade cannabis, it normally is about 20 to 25% THC. And that's in 25 is crazy. And so, that's a flower, right? So that's about as high as a natural flower gets even if you're, if you're at the top. I've seen a few 28, but what happened?  Those are, that's T, that's TH, THCA. Okay. And that's not the, that's not the standard for like what, how strong it is. That's the guys at the clubs, they put that on there so they can say they have a stronger weed, but real Primo top grade, the best grown, the mid 20s. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you're for a flower. Then, then we, and we've been doing hash for a very long time. Cold, you know, cold press hash has been around forever. And that's like, you're pushing 28 to 32 kind of range. Maybe some of your best hashish is hitting 35 or so THC levels. And that's been pretty much it as far as a concentrate for a very long time. And hash is like, we used to be for like the hardcore people, right? Because it was so strong because of the high tolerance. Yeah. Because back then weed was only coming out at like nine, 12%. So it was like double of what weed would be. Well, so now they, we've learned to take it and extract it even further. And so when we first did the first rounds, which we used to call earwax or putty before all the other stuff, the other kinds came. We tested it. And I remember it was nuts because ours came in at 62%. And nobody had seen anything like this yet. Like nobody had seen something this strong. And I remember we would just like barely sprinkle a little bit of it on a joint or put it in with a bowl and then smoke it.  And I remember how strong that was. Now that's at 60-something percent. So when I left out of the industry, we were up to producing stuff that would rank, I think the highest I think we peaked out was like about 78%. And that was like when we evolved it to honeycomb. We were doing honeycomb and shatter before it was even called honeycomb and shatter. And that stuff was pushing 78%. Now since I've left, I've been gone and my cousin and people have continued to evolve the process and they've learned more and there's more science behind it. And now there's more tools that you can actually buy and equipment that actually helps you do all this process. We're up to being able to extract it 100% into this process that makes what's called clear now. And it's... Yeah, so I have no desire because I do not like... Think of the strongest weed you ever smoked. I know you don't even like super strong weed. No, I don't. That's five times strength. Immediate panic. It is. You did the dab. Oh yeah. When you dab, my head would go it's not like a normal high, dude. It's psychedelic. Yeah, it's way too heavy unless you're somebody and the people like... It's hard for me to watch like my little brother who I know dabs on a regular, dude. It's just tolerance is too high. Yeah. Here's what happens when your tolerance is getting high like that.  So you've developed a legit dependence and that's not a good thing. It's not smart and you know it's funny with cannabis and kids when they do tests and it's pretty... The evidence keeps coming back. Kids who smoke a lot of weed and their adolescence suffer from permanent damage to their IQ. Their IQs are typically lower consistently as a result and that's because the developing brain as you're growing up probably... Creating those neuro pathways and that's like...  As an adult this doesn't seem to be the case. So it's pretty crazy but no I have no... And the funny thing about cannabis is of the substances I've tried and that kind of stuff cannabis sucks when you do too much. It's really bad. We talk about everybody... But I could see now where I... It is not a fun thing. Why it is going to get pushed and it will go to where it's at and why it is a fun thing is I could definitely see somebody who is in unbelievably chronic pain or... For sure. Right? I could see someone like that. It's gotta be... Then you would want to be taken to a whole other planet. Of course. Right? At that point you want to be feel out of your body as much as you can because your body feels so terrible. Plus if you have something like... If you are treating something like cancer and you want the anti-cancer effects. Yeah the higher dose for sure. Yeah what they do with that is they give people obviously you don't want smoke but also because when you eat it your liver converts the THC Yeah it converts the THC to a more potent longer lasting form which is probably better. Your body absorbs almost double the amount than when you smoke it. When you smoke it your lungs only get like I think it was don't quote me on this but it's like 18 to 20% is all you actually absorb into your bloodstream when you inhale it. Plus you hit a certain limit you can only get so high you can only reach a certain level of blood THC levels through smoke because your body gets rid of it at a certain speed.    So when we were in Tahoe, okay, this was last year for the Spartan Championship, where we'll be out, the same house we'll be at. It's pretty cool. We were out there and it was, you know, we'd worked all day and we were tired. We were all kind of sitting down. We were in that little room and we were watching Shark Tank. And- That was a great conversation. Oh, dude, I wish that was recorded. I told Doug, I was like- It was such a great conversation. But you got into Taylor and his business. Everything, but what started- Well, we were laughing so hard that night that I pulled a rib. Yeah. For reals. Well, because we hadn't- At that point, okay, so we're a little over two years into the business, right?  And there's so much more to build. And that's just- We've been focused on forward, forward, forward. That we really hadn't had any time where we kind of sat and reflected on like, hey, where are we at right now? And kind of just had some loose conversations instead of like this business talk. We need to do this. We gotta do that. Reminiscing on stories. And I remember, because we talked about the, like we had never done any marketing or any advertising and the first time that we ever tried something and it was Justin's idea. And I remember being in that other studio. So this is the same studio that we're talking about where he walked stomped out and was high.  And he like sits us all down, we sit down.  I sold it really hard. You know what, Justin? You don't give yourself enough credit.  I know, I just don't have to talk about it. You closed us. Well, I'll close you guys on that idea. He knows how to get me because he came in with the numbers right away. Like he came right around and he was just like, I had to, I know Adams. He's like, he started breaking down like the price per click. On porn. On porn. And it is unbelievably low compared to anywhere else. Here's the rationale. The rationale is everybody looks at porn. They get way more views per minute than most websites. That's a fact.   And our show is, you know, we're rated R anyway. That's back then. Especially back then. Yeah, like if any of you guys have unfortunately gone back and listened to some of these earlier episodes, like literally it was one of those things I felt like we were challenging ourselves as far as like how we can stretch our boundaries and our comfort levels, you know? And so we would come up with topics that really divorced. We were trying to just be shocking and crazy. Remember the picture that Sal freaked out? You had to take down? Yeah. So I put my two fingers together, like in the peace sign and like stuck my tongue through. Right? Like that. Actually, no, you did that. Sal did it. That's right. Oh, it's the funniest picture. You posted it because back then you were managing the IG page. Which by the way, if you go way back on the IG page. Oh, that's another thing we went through. If you can clearly see. When Justin was running. When Justin was running. It's very visible signs.   Cause I thought about like now that it's cleaning it up. Yeah, cleaning it up. I'm like, no, that's so great. I got to post for you. Go scroll all the way down to the bottom and look up the one where I posted the, it was animation for suppository instructions. Oh my God, I can't believe you posted that. Why did I post that? But that's why. This is why we thought it would be a brilliant idea. Like, okay, if there was, there's no other fitness health podcast that could get away with advertising on a porn.  And so I thought that was brilliant. And with the price per clicks, I thought, why not throw a couple grand at it? Let's see what happens. So, so here's the rationale. And you know what's funny? Terrible idea. Terrible idea, but brilliant ways of applying. So let me explain what I mean. Cause we were actually trying to be smart about it. So we're like, okay, let's think. When I watch porn, like I don't want to click on something else. Unless it's more porn. Like I'm not going to click anywhere. Do we have the titles? Do we have the titles that we came up with? Doug has them somewhere. Doug has them somewhere. Oh, please tell me you have those. Cause okay, now remember what happened was this, was Justin does this whole presentation for us. And we're all sold. I mean, even including Doug. And Doug's hard to convince sometimes. And Doug's like, okay, this actually sounds kind of smart guys, right? And so we all give each other our first set of homework.  You're each responsible for five ads. So we all had to write five. We spent time on this. Yes, everybody went home and everyone had to come back to work the next day with five ads that they had written. And I didn't really, and our goal was my, the idea was you're, you're watching porn.  How am I going to get you to click on my ad?  Right? So the things that we, we came up with an ad. I'll give you an, I'll give you an idea. And they're, by the way, they get worse than this. I'm pretty sure they're terrible. But there was a picture of a, it was obviously a porn star, whatever, bent over and the, and the ad said, fill your holes with mind pumps. Fill your holes with mind pumps. And if you clicked on it, it brought you to our podcast. Yeah, ear ejaculation. Yeah. And there were, there were a lot of them like that. Like there were like, you know, there was some that were terrible. I would, I would not repeat them, Doug. I hope you don't find them. No, I hope you don't. They're so bad at it.  People got to understand what we were trying to do. Cause that is exactly what we're trying to do.  Oh no, damn it. You found them. You found them. Eargasm.   Viagra for the brain. Oh, oh, here's a good one. This one was mine.  And then it would say average mind pump listener. It was just like, it makes you want to click. Right.   Sorry if I'm offending you. And it would say this person doesn't listen to my pump. Hasn't listened to my pump. Oh, here's another one.  That was going to be a good one. Milfs love mind pump. Right. I can't read.   It's definitely me. That's gotta be my way. I'm the numbers guy. Anything that I'm sure of even throwing random percentages out. Listen to mind pump and come on. Mind pump is better than mine. Mind pump is better than a gang bang. Is it? Is it though? I don't know. Were we being honest? I don't know. Yeah, that's, that might be misleading. Ask to mouth ear to show. That's a pretty good. Here's the other thing. Okay. So Doug was only on board if we like funneled this specific traffic to their own landing page, right?  There's certain ones that I can read and I know which ones are which like who like, I know Justin's mind and I know for sure. Listen to mind pump and come buckets is definitely. That's mine. That's definitely. Oh, this one's great. Gross. This is a good one. And I think I probably came, I think I came up with this one cause it sounds logical. Like this is the time. This is what the ad says.  Listen to buy a pump. Okay. Hey, after you're done. Just click on over. I know what you're doing right now. Come check us out. I got information into huge cocks. Us too.  Why would we put that? I don't get that. That's what it said. It actually said that. Why? Oh man. We're playing. Look at this. Doug has all kinds of notes too.  Oh, no. Scroll up. Scroll up, Doug. That's a terrible one. I have to read that one. It says. It says. You have to read that one. You have to read that one. Adel lesbian fisting. Just kidding. Listen to buy a pump. Why? Why? Just kidding. Peyton switch. You know the real thing that's hilarious about all this is that we did actually spend time on this. This actually took at least a couple days of embarrassment. Hold on. We took more time than that. We actually sent Doug off to find photos and to create the ads. Yes. And so Doug, where did you go? Doug had to do research in the dark woods. How did you get this research? Where did you find these pictures? Research. It's called Google. Oh really? That's all you did? Yeah, yeah. I thought maybe there was one of those sites where you can pay for the picture. Oh no, yeah. Stock photo sites for porno pictures. Oh, there is. Yeah. Oh, that is it. Damn. What do you know? So on Doug's computer, it says he's searching for big cocks. Yeah, I had to burn that computer. Unbelievable. Do you think that was our worst idea? What do you think was our worst idea? That was a bad one. God, that's- Man, I'll take full responsibility for that one. That's gotta be one of the best ideas we came up. We've come up with a few where we didn't, you know, we didn't, you know, ideas where we think they sound great and then the next day we're like, what? Yeah. That's not gonna work, but this is the best one by far. What do you think were some like major game changer decisions that we made along the way that made a big difference in either the podcast or the business in general? I think our decision with our logo was, and that wasn't even something we all thought about. Really, it was really us kind of like, well, we gotta put a logo up. And you know, it was brilliant because when you're on- The Mad Mike? Yeah, well, no. Or even the Mind Pump, the original one. Yeah, the podcast stood out. Oh, the yellow and the black and the Mind Pump brought truth. Look, if you're listening to Start A Podcast. I remember when Doug was the one that brought it to us. And I remember we were all kind of like, okay. No one was excited about it. Yeah, nobody really cared. And it was like, it works, you know what I'm saying? But we all said, well, you know, we'll make a cooler one later or something like that. But when you look at it, when you're scrolling for podcasts. That's just it. If you're about to start a podcast or you have a podcast, when you look at the icons for apps on your phone, they're small. So if you have like a detailed picture with lots of writing and it looks real cool, it's not gonna- It doesn't show well. No, because it's not a big icon. But if it's a small icon with like big letters, like ours is like Mind Pump. It's very clear. So, and now that's kind of the standard. Now that's what people are starting to understand. So I think that was a big one. I think the other thing that was big was when we stopped starting the show with starting the show. Cause early on when we started Mind Pump, the episodes would start by, all right, everybody, thanks for coming on. Hey, welcome to Mind Pump. Yeah. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. I used to like intro it like that. Do you remember what made us go to start and just cut into the conversation? Do we have- That was one of the best decisions we could ever make. Yeah, when was that? I remember Doug, I do remember Doug saying something like, I like when you guys, when we just come into a conversation. I think he just started editing it that way. It was either that or, I don't remember. We might've had a conversation, but whatever happened, that switch was a huge, was a game changer for us. It really changed the conversation. How about when you stopped asking Doug for time? That was early on. Yeah, that was early on. Well, we were always like, well, you remember when we first started? The strategy was to land between 20 and 30 minutes because the average commute, so the most people listen to podcasts while they're driving from to and from work. The average commute was 22 minutes. So we thought it was a smart strategy to kind of fall around that. And everything else was really long form, you know, at the time. And so we thought that would help to kind of differentiate us from it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was logical, yeah, yeah. And I'd asked Doug what time it was because, and the other thing too is, we would have conversation. The things that are funny about that though is that when you're doing that, no one's really thinking about it like it's such a bad idea. It wasn't until like later, do you kind of like start to go like, why are we saying that? Yeah, that's right. Why are we doing that? That's annoying. Why are we cutting it right here? I think our out the gates, you know, we're just gonna say what's on our mind. I think that was such a great, because we could have totally started the podcast much more formulaic and much more like, okay. Produced. Yeah, and in the fact that we decided not to, I think was just great. And part of that might have been just like, we would wanna listen to it. You know what I mean? Like we wouldn't wanna listen to it. Well, I think it's more common now, but when we first started it. It wasn't that common. We were, as far as I knew, we were one of the only shows that I knew that wasn't that produced up. Even shows that people think aren't that produced or produced up, you know? There's, it's rare that I meet another podcaster who has any sort that has the same formula as we do where you just get on the mics and then you go. Like almost everybody has notes.  So they sound like they're talking faster. Like there's a lot of tricks that people do to make even make something that is real and authentic still sound better. Yeah. And we were just pure raw. A lot of the decisions that we made weren't, we're caught, we're caught. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. You're still back on those ads. I'm trying. I'm reminiscing still. Throwback? Throwback. Mind pump. Mind pump.  That was another one. By the way, that's a real, that was a real one we came up with.  I have no idea. I don't know what that means. But a lot of the decisions that we made along the way weren't, this is what I find fascinating. It wasn't us sitting around saying, this is what we're gonna do. It just turned into that. For example, the format of our show, our quas are our most common episodes, right? The Q and A's. Those are also the most popular episodes. And we started doing those very early on because it gave us great content. We wanted to connect with our audience.  And then it transitioned into, all right, let's answer the questions. And it very naturally, now we hear this qua intro, this eagle and all. But it was like, we just kind of morphed into that. That's the way we do the show. Well, you know it was different too. Like you had mentioned people having to cut out time, like having three people to fill spaces and gaps is like it kept it going so we don't have to edit like that. Because otherwise you kind of do a lot of times. You do, but that flow is really interesting, right? It just kind of naturally happened. And then the other thing too is other, I don't know how other podcasts end their podcasts, but they tended to declare that they're gonna end it. Well, I think we're gonna, this is the last question or here's how we're gonna, and our show was always just ended when we all felt like it should end, which is always kind of weird. You ever noticed that? Well, no, for the longest time, group flow. It used to trip us out when we first started. We don't even comment on it anymore. But I remember we'd hang up and we'd all usually like, I was done, I was done too. I was ready, I was ready. Everyone was already, it was just like, we just stopped, everyone stopped talking, no one had anything else to put in. Yeah, so I feel like that's kind of thing. I mean, the intros, your idea, Adam, to do the intros was great. Especially with our interviews. Yeah, interviews and sponsors. Having an intro really allows us to do sponsorships. And it makes it feel more authentic too, to me. I feel like it doesn't force. That's what I mean. We don't feel like we're forced to. Yeah, it's okay. We mentioned this sponsor or whatever like that during the show. If you want more information on it, this is what we have on it. It's just so much better. I think that there's a lot of things I see now too with, I was just talking to a kid yesterday about he's got a podcast and he's like on his 20th episode or whatever and he was just asking for some advice and they have three guys. And I said, I've seen quite a few people now try and run with three since we started and I didn't really see that a lot. It's very rare. You normally see one or two. Two Macs. Two Macs. And we're one of the few, and there's more now, but there wasn't a lot when we first started. I didn't know very many three Macs. No, there's not. There's not a lot. And some of them have, there'll be like one or two main hosts and then there's like Doug the producer. Like he comes on as much as Doug comes on the show. But it's hard to have, I mean it takes really three unique personalities I think to mesh with three on a show. It's too much otherwise. It's too much. It's not, I don't know. I could see how it would be difficult. Well, I remember when I first heard episodes where there would be multiple people and what I didn't like was it was sometimes really hard to tell who was who, which I know that some people still had that problem a little bit with us, even though I think we sound, all three of us sound way different. Yeah, that was interesting. I know, everybody thought, I was Sal, everybody thought you were Adam. Hey, we get Sal and I mixed up a lot. Like a lot of times people get you and I mixed up, which I think is funny too, because I don't think we sound- Just on pictures, yeah. They thought I was you. I was like, well, no way, man. Yeah, excuse me. They got a lot more to offer. Yeah, he does. And then I also remember early on the decision, it wasn't really a decision, but it was including Doug in the conversation on a semi-regular basis. You remember that? Like we would do that and the reason why we did that as I think we were inspired, I know I was definitely inspired by Howard Stern. And how Howard Stern would always include producer. We all had a love for him. Yeah, and so I'm like, no, no, no. Doug needs to be, like as a part of the show, I need to be able to talk to him, ask him questions and have him comment, because I think it's valuable to have that piece. Rogan does it too, and you can see a lot of the real popular shows tend to do that. Johnny Carson did it, right? He started it with Ed McMahon. Yeah, all single guys though. It's rare to see two or three and then it didn't work out because it's even ourselves. If you remember at the beginning, part of what I think has got better over time is we have gotten even better at pausing and not talking over each other in certain topics. So I think that that is something that has evolved and I don't think it could have evolved with a different three, for me at least. Like I just think that what each person contributes to what types of topics. Like I think, and everybody has like this thing where, if there's a guy talking about something and I know this is like maybe Justin, something that Justin does like to talk about more, like I actively don't say much. Even though I could say much, but I know it's something that I know that he would. So I just automatically throttle back because I know that sometimes I have the ability to dominate the conversation much like Sal can do on sometimes. And the thing is too is a lot of it's based on feel. So you can, like any conversation, you can feel if you're in tune with the other person when you should talk more, talk less and there's a flow that kind of happens. We had that really well early on. I call it chemistry, right? Where we kind of feel that kind of flow and that's good advice for someone looking to start a podcast with co-hosts because here's the deal. At the end of the day, look, if you're just an informational podcast where I'm just gonna inform you and read off of things and it doesn't matter. But if you want to have a more conversational podcast, which in my opinion, and I think I'm right, it has far more- It's standard. Yeah, and it has far more potential for- Well, think about it. All that stuff. It's taking over radio and talk radio has been around forever and been extremely popular. It's way more relatable. It's funny because I was actually having a pretty in-depth conversation about this in my barber yesterday. I was getting my haircut. And- Looks good, by the way. Thanks, man. You know, it's no supercuts, but it's a try. But yeah, you know, we were just talking about, like, his favorite show is the Dan Lebatar show. So this is a ESPN podcast that he also has his show on ESPN, but he is, I guess, just exploding. The show is just going crazy and their format is really unique, but it's super conversational based. Rarely do they touch, like, specifics in sports. They interact, like, on another level with their audience. So, like, in real time, they'll read, like, tweets and stuff that the audience is kind of providing. They have that sort of in-the-know feel, right? So if they cover a topic or whatever, it's like, and they've done it in the past, they're not gonna, like, catch people up to speed. Like, you have to, like, have listened to the show. So it's like, it's this cult kind of thing behind it. And we kept talking about it.  And it's like, that whole formula that people are seeing right through that because that's not how you talk to me in person. Like, it's not relatable.   And here's the deal. This is the funny thing. My girlfriend's already commented on this several times when we all get to, which is not common. I wish we would do it more often, but we don't.  And so you have to, if you find that, that may be the person you'd want a partner with. If you don't find that, it's hard. This is part of the magic behind fighting the kid. They're both really friends. They hang out, they go, And you can hear it. Yeah, you can hear it. And they're the way they can talk to each other and pick on each other and do things like that.  I remember when we first had Craig, like I remember thinking like, we don't have that relationship. Like we're cool, we're buddies, you know, and we communicate on a regular basis, but we didn't have the same bond. Still have to tightrope a bit. Yeah. It's certain dip it is true.  Yeah, but it's fine, you know what I mean? It's like, what did I say?  Hey, what did I say? It's all of you. You said I said something mean. Did you listen to that episode? Oh yeah, no, what did he say? What did I say? I talk shit? Yeah, I wasn't even like, what did I say? I was just, I was laughing because I, my assumption was when you guys get on a podcast without me, like, you know, you're going to throw some jabs in there. I was like expecting it.   Yeah, you don't have to be supportive. You don't have to be supportive. It's okay. I'm not. I know you guys aren't listening to me on podcast either. It's fine. But like, I was like, no, I'm listening to this. I want to see how this went. Like I want to see what they talked about, topics they covered, this and that. And right out of the gates, I think you guys, you're in the gym setting.  And I forget you guys are introducing yourselves. And then I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was Adam was like kind of describing. He's like, oh yeah, like I'm the handsome one. And you know, he's the smart one.    Did you really say that? It wasn't like that specific words, but it was like, you know, that same context. It might be. Even if it was, I was dying. I probably called you the other guy because ever since somebody said that, right? So that's like me repeating something. Well, I called myself that. Right. It's all right. It's fucking, I love it. Out of the text. No, literally it was something about me being the one that, you know why? Cause you guys were on video. That's what brought it up, right? Cause it was like, it was like on YouTube where I was going to live on YouTube. And so you made some joke that, you know, thank God we got the handsome ones here. Yeah, the other guy is funny, but we can't put them on film.  So Justin called, last night on the, on the thread, Justin calls me out for that. I haven't even heard it yet. And then Sal comes back. What did you say? You came back and you said to Justin, you said, Justin, I've been meaning to tell you, Adam's really mean when you're not, when you're not around.  I mean, consistently, all the time. Consistently mean. And then I said, oh yeah, he was just being Adam. I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. Oh, what about? So I gotta say it, I don't care. The, you know, we obviously have our facilities next to a gym, a CrossFit gym. And we share a, we share a bathroom with them, which by the way, I hope they fix the bathroom soon.  But anyway, our back doors open sometimes and there's a dude that works out in there that he knows Adam. So they're kind of like, not really buddies or whatever, but they know each other. He always just barges in. I don't listen to this though.  And he's a cool guy. It's nothing wrong with that. So he walks in and I gotta preface this by saying he's probably five, five. Maybe, right? If that maybe five. I think he's five three actually. Okay, five three. So he walks in and we're, I don't remember what we were doing. We were meeting. Adam was probably angry. I think you were angry. I was angry. I think you were angry because of the pollen or something. He was a little bit agitated. A little bit. You can smell it on him. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes that happens. So he's sitting there. We're sitting on the couch. The guy walks in. He makes some like comment, like dudes do. Like, what's up, you fuckers? You guys working? What's the matter?  He's like, hey man, did you get taller or something? What's going on?  Bro, you look a lot taller.  Right in the nuts. Just pop, pop, pop, pop. I couldn't believe it. There was reason behind that because he is a loud guy and he's a fireball. And I got nothing but love for him. He's a good dude. Smart guy, has a very successful business. That's how we got connected. Love what he's doing and stuff like that. And he has a big t-shirt line that he provides for like the CrossFit community and does really well.   You know what I'm saying? Like he walks, because he knows me, he just walks in our studio whenever he wants. We'll be in a meeting with somebody or with that. And the guy will just kind of come in. And we, because we leave our back door open so we can go to and from the bathroom, but nobody does that. Nobody really just comes into our studio. Maybe people peek in and see what's going on, but it doesn't look welcoming like, come on in. You know what I'm saying? But he barges in. Definitely not welcoming. Hey, I'm in the building. Right. And he just gazes right through us all the time.  He's a big talker. Adam's like, hey, shorty.  He's real tall. Yeah, he looks real tall today. Hey, what's up? You working on your posture? Dude, I want to do that one of these days.  What I'm going to do, and I'm going to test this out. Fire insecurities. I want to actually hit him with something.  No, but something real.  You know, just make them like, oh.  A nose or their eye. Like, you pick those things. That's what kids are mean like that, bro. That's why bullying is so bad, is because it's real. Well, it is. That's why. Like, but it's true. It is because it's the kids. They don't know they just they see what they see. They see that you have something that's not like everybody else, right?   You one of these things doesn't belong together. You know what I'm saying?  You have more. Right. Or something different.  And kids are. But now here's the argument that I had with that, too. A part of that, like it is real.  At one point, you're going to have to face this. At one point, you're going to have to accept who you are and love who you are feedback. It is. It's quick. It's real.   But they said I have a big nose. Well, honey, OK, first off, let's be clear. You do have a big nose. However, it's not a bad thing. Yes. Yeah. Have that conversation. What you want? Yeah. You want to know the truth about yourself?  You know what I mean? And just wait and see the comments. Did you guys have like a trigger, like word or something that someone would say to you when you were little? That was like, that hurts me. Mama's boy. No. Oh, wow. That was quick, bro. Yes. That was quick. I remember that, like, vividly growing up, dude. Because, like, that was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Now, why calls me that? Now, why? Was it because when you were young, you were a mama's boy? Were you attached to your mom? I think, yeah. I think I, yeah. I was definitely like, I think what it was for me was I wasn't allowed to do a lot of stuff.  Oh, wow. You know what I'm saying? And so I was like, no, I do what I want. You know, like, I'm getting attached to you. And it became this thing that, yeah, I was like.  Oh, I know. That's exactly what I'm saying. You're only going to do what Adam says. Yes, yes, right? Yeah, like, on some level, I joke with it. But, yeah, on some level, I'm sure it affects me. You shouldn't give that to me.  I got some real powerful saving for labor. I'm going to use it. Oh, dear yourself. It's fine. I'll get you back. Well, for me, it was skinny. Skinny me too, bro. You too? Yeah. The word skinny? The only one that comes to mind that ever, like, because everything else I felt like I overcame.  You know what I'm saying? Like, whatever. Like, crooked teeth.  I got them. You know what I'm saying? Like, the things that I got teased for then that bothered me, but the skinny thing hit me different. Weird. Like, the skinny thing hit me, which is what led me and motivated me to eventually lift weights was. And I think that it never hit me to the point where I was like depressed or mad. But inside it was like, I wanted to solve that. Like, inside it causes like, you know. I think it's a combination of, for me, I'm the same. Actually, we're all like this, but this is a specific thing, right? It's like you take a person who has the kind of mentality where if they don't like something, they're going to pull up their sleeves and they're going to change it. So I've had that attitude since I was a young child. I think you have as well. So people say you're skinny, you feel insecure about it. I'm going to do something about it. And the cool thing is with exercise, you actually see the effects of that and it only strengthens this belief that I can change things. So I'm so happy. Like, I'm very appreciative that it was skinny for me. So am I. Because it drove me to seek for that. And I probably wouldn't have, I probably would have gave up if it wasn't such a deep rooted insecurity. Because it was so deep, you know, I didn't have, I wasn't like somebody who touched weights and blew up right away at all. I worked at it and did a lot of things the wrong way for a really long time because I was driven by that insecurity. So you use that. And that's why I think that sometimes it's tough to like beat yourself up over certain things like that. Because a lot of times when you see these people that are great at something, a lot of times it's driven through this insecurity that's been rooted for a very long time. And it's what's made them so special on the other end of it because they've worked so hard. Let's be honest, if you're going to be, if you're going to be at the top, you know, 5% of something, then there's probably dysfunction. There's probably some dysfunction.  You're probably going to be dysfunctional. You're probably not going to have good relationships with friends and family. You're probably going to be unbalanced and that kind of stuff. Same thing with the search for knowledge, the search for, you know, building your body or whatever. If they're typically driven by something that's so deep-seated that it pushes you to do things, you know, to not, to lose that kind of balance. Did you see that post that Logan did, the one who interviewed all of us, he did a post about famous people that you've met? No, I didn't see it. So I wrote a line, I happened to be high that night and I wrote this, which is probably why I didn't think it through.  And he was asking his audience or his followers, you know, hey, have you guys met any famous people and who have you met?  And, you know, I started listing off all these stories of like famous people that I've been around and professional athletes.  And I'm not impressed that they don't do something very impressive. I think that's in what their skill that they do, whether it be a sport, just brilliant. And so they're these authors or they've done, or they're actors or actresses, they have a talent that they are incredible. But the more of them that I was around, the more I realized that they were out of balance in other parts of their life. And that's part of what drove them to be so successful in these other avenues. So it was actually very rare that I would meet somebody super famous who was super talented in something. And that's why they were super famous. And they were good communicators with people and they were friendly or they were really intelligent somewhere else. Like they just... True, think about it this way.  Like, I mean, just using Jimi Hendrix as an example. But what they don't realize is what part of what may have created that or what comes with that is the internal turmoil and torment that drove that type of creation.  For sure, way more... A little bit inappropriate. Yeah, have you guys ever watched Afro Samurai? Has ever watched that? You know, I've seen clips of it, but I've never actually watched one.   So it's like this anime of this Samurai who watches his dad get killed, and so then he goes on this mission to find the man who kills him. Who wears... He has a big Afro. He has a big Afro, and his dad did too, so there's these black dudes, but it's hilarious.  And he's searching for the number one headband. And the number one headband, when you have that, you have all these godly powers, you become unstoppable.  And it reminds me of this in the sense that you want these incredible achievements. I want to be like Elon Musk, or I want to be whatever, but do you really want all those things? Do you want the judgment at that level? And just the internal drive that causes you to maybe have terrible relationships, maybe causes you to be... There's an Afro Samurai. And that's what I meant by the post that I was doing is I just started listing off, and they're cool stories. Don't get me wrong, sitting around a campfire, smokin