Good morning and welcome to CSIS. I'm Steve Morrison. I direct the Global Health Policy Center here at CSIS. And we're thrilled and honored this morning that we can host Congresswoman Betty McCollum, Democrat from Minnesota, to return to CSIS and speak here. Again, we've had the honor of hosting her several times here and on the Hill to speak on issues that are the ones that she's leading on in Congress. Today we'll be hearing her vision of how to move forward an agenda on maternal and child health. There's an important piece of legislation that she has introduced. We'll hear more about that. I expect to provide assistance, HR 1410, to provide assistance to improve the health of newborns, children, and mothers in developing countries. Now has 73 co-sponsors in the House of Representatives. Betty is a member of the Labor Health and Services and Education Appropriations Subcommittee where she's championed on the domestic front health care access and improving health services issues that are front and center today. In April of 2007 she authored legislation to make health care a right for all Americans and voted to reauthorize the S-CHIP, the legislation that in January 2009 expanding health care to 4 million children. She's also a member of the Appropriations Subcommittee on the State Department and Foreign Operations, a critical position from which she has used her leadership to advance U.S. approaches on HIV-AIDS and has been at the forefront of pressing for new approaches on global food security. She was one of the original co-sponsors of the Global Food Security Act of 2009 and I might add in looking at what happened at the GA summit in Italy last week and the follow-on by President Obama's follow-on visit to Ghana, enormous breakthroughs on the global food security agenda with U.S. leadership as a critical element and I think much of that energy and enthusiasm and confidence is based on the awareness that there's a strong bipartisan support within Congress for moving ahead in this area, this critically neglected area of re-engaging and reinvesting in rural development and changing the practices of foreign emergency food relief, but taking a long-term approach at trying to rebuild the productive base in Africa and elsewhere centered within agriculture. She's also been at the forefront of trying to get the House of Representatives focused around an array of global health issues and she founded the Congressional Global Health Caucus. We had the honor just 10 days back to hold an event there on the H1N1 swine flu epidemic thanks to Congresswoman McCollum's volunteering to host us and organize this event. This was with Drs. Fauci and Fineberg which was timely and a very powerful event. She recently introduced the International Protecting Girls by Preventing Child Marriage Act of 2009 which is past the House and awaits action in the Senate which I believe it's Senator Durbin is carrying this legislative initiative on the Senate side. Very promising. So you can see that Betty has moved forward in her position in the House on the Appropriations Subcommittee in her other committee assignments as an innovator, as a leader across a spectrum of issues. And so today we've asked her to come and speak around the maternal and child health agenda which is also something that the President highlighted during his visit to Ghana, his speech to the Parliament. So thank you very much Betty and thank you for your leadership. Well good morning. And it is a beautiful summer day in Washington, D.C. I cannot believe our luck. It's actually been cooler here sometimes than it's been back in Minnesota. Go figure that one, huh? Well I'm really excited to be here with you this morning and I appreciate the opportunity to be here at CSIS to speak about global health and specifically about the needs of the women and children in the world's poorest countries. But let me start by thanking and congratulating CSIS and Steve Morrison for the ongoing commitment to elevate the importance of global health. The work you're doing here to help really focus an examination on U.S. foreign policy and the health investments our country is making is truly critical and it's impressive and I can't stress how really important it is to me to help me in my role and function not only with trying to come forward with ideas and solutions but also with oversight. Now many of you are here today because you're working on basic health care for women and children across the developing world. And I want to thank you for all that you're doing. Your work is to help prevent needless deaths or in a more positive way to create opportunities for tens of millions to achieve basic life quality. And to do that in places where people are living in extreme poverty and hunger, facing disease, it is quite an undertaking. But it's all very important work and I need you to keep fighting and so do those mom and dads all around the world. So I'm going to start my remarks here with a single sentence from last week's GA Global Health Experts Report. These are the experts now. So listen carefully to what they've told us. Women and children are among the most vulnerable groups and progress towards the MDGs related to maternal newborn and child health remains too slow. Let me stress again what the experts alerted us to. Progress towards the MDGs related to maternal newborn and child health remains too slow. Well let's put this in another light. Because sometimes people like numbers, right? 25,000 newborns and children under 5 died yesterday. They're dying today and 25,000 will die tomorrow.  So do we need to say the progress is moving too slowly? Do we need to say that we're not doing enough? We know that. And we did need a GA report to tell us that. What the GA should be asking is the mothers and fathers of the more than 9 million children who died last year is if progress has been too slow. Or they could ask an orphan child whose mother is one of the more than half a million women who die every year from pregnancy related death if the world is moving too slow for help for those children. So what I want to do is kind of have us look at the question of what to do a little differently. What do we do to pick up the speed? We're the richest nation and there are other donor nations.  Are we doing enough to invest in sustainable health systems? Well in my opinion not enough and I know from hearing from many of you in the room not enough too. And that's why taking on the challenge of MDG-4 to reduce child mortality by two thirds and MDG-5 to reduce maternal mortality by three quarters is something that we know needs to be done and we know how to do it. The goals are all doable. We know that. But the fate of millions of women and children cannot just be a talking point in my speech today. Or it just can't be a summit declaration about we need to do more. It needs to be converted into action. With regards to maternal and child health we need inspiring action. And that I believe is our biggest challenge. The ministries in Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia understand that women and children in their country are dying in mass numbers and they're dying needlessly. The development and global health communities understand the problem. Everyone in this room understands the situation. And we all know we don't need to wait for a miracle drug or a great technologically breakthrough to deliver what in essence is a package of sustainable interventions if we put our mind to it. And that we can by delivering these interventions literally save the lives of millions of children and hundreds of thousands of women. We're delivering those interventions right now today. It's being done all across the world. We know what needs to be done. It needs to be scaled up and it needs to be sustained. We know that skilled birth attendants are needed at all births and we know how to recruit and train them. And we know expanding access to family planning, child spacing improves the health of women and their children. And we know exclusive breast feeding and immunizations from measles and vitamin A and bed nets combined to save millions of lives all around the world. And we know that the U.S. A.I.D. has been making major contributions to maternal child health as well as reproductive health for decades. Tons of millions of people are alive today because of child health programs implemented by U.S. A.I.D. and paid for by the American people over the past 40 years. And we need to celebrate that with the help of the U.S. A.I.D. and the U.S. A.I.D. And we need to celebrate those tremendous successes. We really do. And all of you here today know every statistic there is to know. Every fact about the lack of maternal child health. Every medical consequence, the human cost. The lack of data is not a problem. And I'm carrying it with me. We don't need to study it anymore. So let's look at child health as I said from a different perspective. What we don't know. That's the harder question. Something must be missing if we know how to solve such a problem. Such a serious problem. How to save lives. And yet we still know moms and children are dying needlessly. So let me throw out a few questions. And as a teacher this is a very dangerous thing to do while I'm still speaking. But I want you to help me with the answers. Because I think collectively we need to figure out how to inspire people to action. So where is the urgency to save the lives of children and mothers? Where is the political will to invest in the lives of children and mothers? And does anybody know or care to even know the names, know the faces of the babies and the women who are dying at this very moment while I'm speaking? These are the questions we need to ask and answer if we're going to translate these endless reports that I held up, all the policy papers, all the strategic plans into advocacy, into inspiration, into investments and into action to save lives. Now I'm looking for the answers. I know you're looking for the answers so I'm looking for you to work together with me to find them. As you know I'm in the House of Representatives and there's 435 other voices and votes as well. Is this level a priority issue for Congress? Well we know it should be, but I have to tell you I don't feel that it's a priority in Congress. Imagine the possibility of a terrorist attack in which 5 million children were at risk. We know how to prevent the attack. We know it would cost 5 billion dollars to save those lives. Would Congress spend the money? Of course we would. Even the blue dogs and the compassionate conservatives would spend the money. But unfortunately that terror strikes millions of parents who watch their children die for malnutrition or malaria. But that's not the same kind of terror that inspires Congress for action. A real sense of urgency may need to start beyond Washington in the very countries in which women and children are dying on acceptable rates. For example, India and Pakistan have billions of dollars to spend on advancing military hardware including nuclear arsenals. Yet tens of millions of their children live in abject misery and die for no other reason than the fact that they're poor. Nigeria, a petroleum exporter, leads African continent in the numbers of mothers dying each year. They're ashamed for such an African power. Where is the urgency in India and Pakistan to invest in its own citizens' lives? And if they aren't willing to make the commitment for their own children, for their own future to make that a priority, how do I convince my constituents to make their children a priority? Now this administration's leadership on this issue is essential. And the President's speech in Ghana about transparency and corruption in maternal child health and asking for partnership is essential. And it's going to be essential that we prove that in order to go to Congress to ask for any increased investments in maternal child health in 2011. But the President also has some work to do here at home to show that it's an urgency. He needs to appoint someone to head our international development efforts. And I know the vetting is going well and I know no one's probably more frustrated than President Obama but we need someone at the helm of USAID and we needed them yesterday. So I'm sending the President a lot of well wishes that he is able to make that announcement shortly. So let's say we get that in place. How do we still move forward to inspire the political will in the United States and around the world to do something about maternal child health advocacy and we need to think long and hard about it collectively. Together. This is an area where policy, politics and pressure need to come together. Unless there's a new model of grassroots advocacy, political engagement, lobbying Congress and the White House and real pressure from Americans all across this country, from school groups to civic organizations, I'm afraid maternal child health will stagnate as an issue and we will not be successful in appropriating the increased dollars we need to do. And that's a shame because it also diminishes an opportunity to build a sustainable global health platform in those communities. So the reality we're facing is that the political and policy success of the global HIV AIDS community has put a real squeeze on other global health accounts. That's a fact. The White House in 2010 state and foreign operations appropriations invested 7.8 billion dollars for global health with 7 out of every 10 dollars going to HIV prevention, treatment or care. 7 out of 10 dollars to HIV. That's a fact. PEPFAR has created a global health entitlement program. That means a person who needs lifetime treatment for HIV AIDS will take priority over other investments like child and maternal health. Unless we plus up child and maternal health and have that out there transparent where we're pushing for the sustainability and the growth in those accounts will consume the dollars. Now I'm not here to badmouth what we're doing in PEPFAR. I voted for the PEPFAR legislation. I had some concerns about it though because I didn't think we as a country, we as a Congress were really understanding the long term commitment we were making with those dollars. I voted for a five year PEPFAR program and I said to Representative Haydn Lantos in committee and I'll paraphrase what I said I'm not making a five year pledge. Once someone starts ARVs I have a lifetime commitment to those individuals so let's not get ourselves here about what we're doing. It was the right thing to do but we didn't look at the whole basket of global health care needs as we move forward and now we find ourselves with tradeoffs. But in those tradeoffs too many lives are being lost. Now Congress is going through its own domestic health care reform and all of my colleagues have heard first-hand stories from countless constituents about their challenges of accessing a quality health care. Their stories and the people who tell them demonstrate a real need for that health care. But who are the mothers and fathers and children who are going to get to be willing to invest our tax dollars, our energies, our ideas to build healthier families and communities in far away places? Unless we can make these lives real to those individuals and less of statistics in a speech, tens of millions of children and mothers will continue to perish. Now last week, Nicholas Kristoff in his New York Times column wrote, Humanitarians are objectively ineffective at selling their cause. And we are. We do have the success stories and we have to hold them up high and I've been to many of them. Whether it be save the children or care or any of the other fantastic NGOs I work with. They do great work on a limited scale based on the resources that are available to them. So we are ineffective at selling our cause at the large ramped up scale. He went on to say quote, I also wonder if our unrementing focus on suffering and unmet needs stirs up a cloud of negative feelings that incline people to avert their eyes and hurry by. Just as some of you have started to do with the speech that I'm giving. He goes on to say, maybe we should emphasize that many humanitarian successes such as falling child mortality rates since 1990. That means 400 children's lives are saved every hour around the clock and we should celebrate that. But we can't take our eye off the prize to quote my civil rights friends. Mr. Kristoff is correct in his assessment when we should be championing success of every toddler who is now a teenager because of access to basic health care, good nutrition and clean water and we need to tell that story at the same time we're asking for help to help more children. Hundreds of thousands of American citizens are contributing. They're contributing to you through their own money to make a difference in the world. Now we know there are many competing development challenges that require resources and I mentioned one of them, HIV AIDS and they kind of lecture but together we need to look at that and say how do we collectively use those to contribute to our poor countries healthier, more successful and better prepared to meet their current obligations and future opportunities. Whether it's basic education or agriculture, development, clean water, maternal health, child health we need to make smarter investments that produce results we can show up, hold up and celebrate and then demonstrate to the American people that when we work together real improvements happen. We make a difference in a family, a community and a nation becoming more stable and that means a healthier, more peaceful world for all of our children. So let me conclude by asking for some of your ideas and suggestions in the Q&A about how to mobilize and how to inspire action from the American people as well as from foreign leaders to make maternal child health a global priority. We need to have a dialogue with NGOs, donors and policymakers and we need to have that dialogue saying what are you going to do to help energize what are you going to do to help mobilize and what are you going to do to help communicate more effectively on this issue. Now I do have a bill my name's on it but the credit goes to so many of you in this room.  We need a champion. We need a movement in support of the millions of children and women's lives we can save if we only try to mobilize more effectively. We need action in congress and in parliaments and in donor countries and we need action in the developing countries to make this a priority. We need to organize parents here and we need to organize parents in the developing countries. We need to organize children here and we need to order organized children in developing countries to become activists. We need to motivate and mobilize a political movement that will create the support for resources that will allow investments in interventions that we know save lives that we know change communities and we know will transform our future to be a more successful and peaceful and healthier future on this planet. Now I'm committed to making pregnancy and childbirth and newborns start in this world safe and healthy and a joy for every family here at home and around the country but even the poorest families and the poorest of countries turn to the United States and turn to us and look for us for the leadership for us for the accountability look for us for the stabilization look to us for the dollars to make this a reality. So I know we have a lot of work to do but we have a lot of successes to build that work on and so I'm going to ask you as part of the Q&A tell me what you think we need to do to take this book filled with data and statistics this book that has plans put it on the table and say make it happen now we're not waiting another day we're not waiting another year we're not waiting another moment because if countries are going to be healthy if they have a chance of even aspiring to have sustainable governments they need to have a healthy population and that starts with pregnancy and that starts with birth and I know it starts with a lot of the work you do here in the room thank you Thank you very much for that very eloquent powerful statement there has been a significant and in some ways a sort of surprising upsurge of interest in momentum around these issues and the fact that the White House and the President himself are important putting this front and center within the global health initiative making this part of the speech and activities in Ghana getting keeping the G8 focused in this way and we see momentum coming from other directions as well I think the picture this is a moment when it seems to me there is the possibility for moving forward in a significant fashion that you're not starting from scratch you're starting from a moment of a significant upsurge of interest coming from a variety of directions and coming from many sources that are quite important to be able to carry things forward why don't we take three quick comments and questions and then we'll come back to Congresswoman McCollum for discussion and we'll do another round we've got a little bit of time we have microphones I'd like you to just identify yourself and then try to keep your intervention fairly succinct thank you yes thank you I'm doing your luwale from AED thank you very much Congresswoman I'm from one of the countries that you mentioned that women are shamefully dying and yet the resources are in country and I cannot agree with you more that the urgency has to come from within the country and that we need politics as well as Brazil I think like a decade ago there were not too many women in the parliament in my country and in Kenya and in Uganda from the United States from Europe came over to Africa worked with women trained them on how to campaign on how to build self-esteem on how to present their strategies to their constituencies and today I can tell you that it has worked it has paid off there are many women in parliament I think the same strategy can be applied to the issue of maternal newborn and child health let's go out there work with the women let them know the details they do not understand what 1,000 deaths per 100,000 life-baths means it means nothing to them but they understand that every minute one woman is dying and they want to know why we can teach them to communicate with them and work with them on how to present their case to their leadership so that from within we have the politics we have the pressure and then the United States Europe or the countries can respond to it because I think this is too long a problem for us to carry thank you we have a hand up here we have one in the back we are only focusing primarily on maternal child health mortality versus morbidity in my day-to-day work I am focused on diseases which certainly don't cause the mortality that HIV and malaria do particularly mothers and children have extremely detrimental results so I am wondering how we can better incorporate diseases that might not have the death statistics cause extreme morbidity to really bring about the effectiveness of our programs in the field thank you, thanks Aaron we have a hand in the back here my name is Karthik Ballas-Bermonian my name is Karthik Ballas-Bermonian I'm with the Boston Consulting Group you're going to need to speak a little louder is the mic working? sure I'm with the Boston Consulting Group and my question is what do you think the prospects are for the U.S. ratification process for the U.N. Convention of the Rights of a Child I'll start with the last one first, I'm not a member of the other August body of the Senate where the treaty ratifications take place I bring this up usually when I'm with other parliament members right away that I know that we're not a signatory on how embarrassed I am we also know in fact not being a signatory the landsmine treaty has also to agriculture and has to child survival as well so I have no idea what the Senate's plans are for bringing that up but I think it's high time I think with now I have two Senators from Minnesota I know who would both be very supportive of that so please I feel like a whole grown-up Senators my family's complete but I really think that we need a champion over in the Senate to be taking leadership on this so I would encourage you to do that and once you find out who that person is let me know I'll adopt him as my third Senator if it isn't one of my two I'm gonna kind of take these in reverse I was in reverse order but then I thought you know I think your question on what do we do about neglected diseases to my sister's question about what do we do to support women and communities around the world I like your idea one of the things that I'm trying to do is try to put together a codel and it doesn't necessarily just have to be women I think because we need some of our brothers to talk to our other brothers just but focus on maternal child health showing what we can do and what happens when we have sustainability brought into the problem not having sustainability built into some of these is a huge problem and the only way we're gonna have sustainability is for the countries to be engaged and we did that rather successfully actually with parliamentarians of World Bank sponsored some things on HIV AIDS to get international parliamentarians and some of the recipient countries to sit under the tree and to talk about AIDS and to be more open about how it's transmitted and that people need to be tested we can do the same thing I like your idea of me being more thoughtful with some of the other donor parliamentarians I know to be more engaged with DFID and the rest about how do we really make this person to person what it should be and empower those parliamentarian leaders to action how to empower women to action but we know women are carrying the water they're attending the children they're in the fields but I meet the most amazing women wherever I go they always have time for their children and they always have time to support one another so I think this is totally doable even in their busy lives if they're given some tools in which to help organize so thank you for your suggestion when we build sustainability into these programs and when we look at maternal child health what do we mean when we look at maternal child health yeah we're talking about birth attendants we're talking about vaccines but if a child is going to grow up to be healthy that child needs what food and water this is how do we build an integrated system in which sustainability is part of it so I don't see that what the president is doing in agriculture is being in any kind of competition in what we're doing on child survival I pushed for and I was part of a panel here at CSIS to talk about the 3Ds Defense Development and Diplomacy and wanted us to have a real strong leg, a three-legged stool with someone heading up development I don't think we're going to see a secretary development I think we'll see one in my lifetime I'm going to be positive but I don't think I'm going to see one in the next two or three years but we really need to have a development strategy which integrates all these things that you were talking about so that we create a ladder up and quite often we create a step stool and we forget to put the other rings on the stool so people can move up or after people are in the top of the step stool we go oh we're going over here now and we're not making sure that your government has something you know in partnership to keep the sustainable and we pull the step stool away and we can't afford to do that anymore we have to be so much smarter we are smarter than that now we just have to have the will to do something about it we have a couple of, we have hands up there's one in the back this side of the room is a lot more awake than the other side Maurice Congresswoman thank you for your speech and for being such an incredible champion of health I want to make three suggestions one is a direct appeal to the president and to Mrs. Obama they just came back from the child and reproductive health a hospital in Ghana and it would seem to be a propitious moment to make a direct appeal to them to extend the president's commitment to maternal and child health we were a little disappointed in the budget that we put forward this year as you know a second suggestion would be to have the Institute of Medicine report that came out that report came out that has a very important recommendation makes it clear that it's in the U.S. interest to make these investments but there hasn't been much action in response to that report and my third suggestion would be to have a report card on health performance if we do an annual report card on human rights this seems to, there is such a body of law and of treaties around health that there ought to be a public report card whether emanated from civil society or from government that scores governments and whether or not they are living up to their commitments I think that's a really good idea I like the idea of the annual report on health and I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel to do that the World Bank collects a lot of those statistics and so I'm going to follow up and talk to the World Bank and see if they can help us kind of start maybe launching something up because if we wait to build a bureaucracy to do a report, remember I said we have all the statistics we need and they have what's going on with the governments by economy by economy there maybe I can work with them to see if they'll do a course to the poor annual report and kind of look back a couple years so we kind of have a base to work off of. I like that idea and working then we can show the women in the village and the parliamentarians in a very transparent fashion we're willing to do this is a partnership this is not about a handout I can't think of anything more disappointing than to have a handout when you want to help your family you want a partnership I wanted to be a partner with my children's schools I want to be to the best of my ability a partner with my children's health care providers when they were young I wanted to be a partner with my community in making the playgrounds in the neighborhood safe and that's how we have to look at this we have to look at this as a partnership because if we do it in that way I truly believe people in the recipient countries will become more excited about being engaged with us they deserve to have this done in a respectful fashion because I have never met one parent who hasn't wanted to do what's best for their children we've given an opportunity and we have to respect those parents rights to be given an opportunity to have a healthy family and so I like the idea of the report card to have parents within their own governments as well as empower our own government to do what we should be doing we can Bob Gates is with us the Secretary of Defense thinks it's a smart investment of money we should be listening to him on this particular reason for sure let's take a couple of different comments we have a woman in the middle there please and if the microphone is not working it's important for the videotaping that the mics be working is this working? thank you for your comments on integration it's a very difficult thing for many people to grasp this integration and a hard thing to advocate for many times something like AIDS where you can show the statistics and show that people dying quite easily is much easier to advocate for and so I was just wondering what you see as the future for integration across a wide spectrum regardless of the fact whether they're male, female, children mothers and get the health care they need and I just wondered in Congress what you see as the future and if people are in fact getting on board with this, I know that President Obama is and I was just wondering what your thoughts on that were thank you Keith Hansen from the World Bank thank you very much for your leadership comments that was a nice plug I gave you guys very much in line with this comment just to note that I think AIDS has succeeded largely because there is a magic bullet that can be delivered that incontrovertibly saves lives and can be easily counted but can also be delivered largely outside of formal health systems child health and especially maternal health the only way to solve these sustainably is by strengthening systems and I think our message in the World Bank and one I know you're pushing and I think all the agencies need to follow is this next stage where the approach to global health can't rely on magic bullets or quick fixes this is really the time we need to strengthen systems as a whole especially maternal mortality it's an excellent proxy for the overall strength of the system and that's we need to take a longer view and in some sense be impatient with results but patient with the kind of structural work that needs to be done in order to make this last and not be a flash in the pan let's take one more over here in the corner Hi, my name is Mikayla Hennig I'm an intern with Representative Ed Pearlmutter's office I had the opportunity last year to advocate for the Child Marriage Act of 2008 and I'm thrilled to see this passage in this Congress my question and I'd like to thank you for your comment about engaging our brothers in this issue from my limited experience so far as a college student my frustration with family planning, reproductive health and maternal health care and a bronze that were only reaching half of the population so how do we frame this issue not only as a women's issue but also as a people's issue that's really good Earl's are we were having the first congressional ever women's softball game you all want to miss it I don't know where I am in the starting lineup and Earl's been one of our coaches so we used our brothers' expertise to kind of we'll see if the guys are kind of like walking in the field after a while one more plug on that the average age of our competition is 25 and ours is double that okay I was just in Peru and I was going back to kind of see what was happening with some of our maternal child health projects and I was in a village outside of Cusco where they had integrated the whole community similar to another project I had seen in another part in Ayacucho Peru and it's the engagement of the community engaging the men in it that has helped bring the sustainability in it because the guys don't their dads they want to see their children do well they want their wives to be healthy after the delivery they don't want to be widowers and so the engagement of them is very important and sometimes something that we don't tend to do very well but sometimes we don't tend to engage the village very well from the get-go and that was to my point about respect in the United States we tend to lay on a table if you're not in a water pressurized tub or something delivering your baby we have our tradition of delivering babies so when we roll out our programs that's what we bring with well they found out no one in Peru was coming to the clinics well that's not how they deliver babies so they sat down at the SSID and they worked with the medical school in Cusco and said what do we need to do in these villages because the government of Peru was engaged in changing the outcome now I realize this isn't the poorest of the poor countries but I want to use this as an example of how when you engage people you can have good outcomes so I went and went to this village the women are identified they're given prenatal counseling they have waiting houses where you bring your own chickens and everything else the kids come down to the waiting houses two weeks before they're immunizing the kids there they have people there talking about best practices in farming with the women they're talking about breastfeeding being best all these other kinds of things are going on and the dads come back and forth from the field and then when it's time for the delivery they go across the street in a room that they've been in a couple of times the women sit in a very specialized stool the dad sits in another stool the dads put their arms out the mom has her arms around the dad mom's sitting on a stool to do the delivery and I just the happenstance was everyone one of the babies was delivered they haven't lost a child yet but they're finding something interesting out because now they're able to collect data kids are doing great till six months they're losing weight and they're starting to see children at risk of dying we're able now to track the fact that there's lack of nutrition and so that's the next step in so that's putting the integrated system in together but that's involving fathers we don't do any one part of our life in total isolation our lives are integrated and we have to approach this as integration as well you know that you're going to measure the outcomes differently but we need to start scoring preventive medicine both here at home and abroad and we haven't done a very good job of doing that but if we're going to do that then we have to be serious about building the sustainability and the partnerships and with the governments and that has to be part of any plan moving forward what will this village look like a year five years ten years after we're gone and we're just kind of coming in collecting more data on how to do things more effectively sure so right here in front I'm Andrew Berra the executive director of the U.S. Coalition for Child Survival and I have a, I think what's a difficult question for Betty and that is we have a lot of support for your bill 1410 from the NGO community members of Congress from members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee but how do we get congressman Chairman Berman who is a supporter of Child Survival he talks about it all the time how do we get him to mark up the bill rather than wait for what might be a two or three year process of foreign assistance reform how do we get action now great question thank you Dan right behind and then over to good morning I'm Daniel Singer associate director for global health research and international activities at the Unis Canada Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development don't count that against my time but what's your rank as you know we have a lot of good evidence based interventions where we tend to fail as in the implementation and the delivery of those and my question is that clearly is going to require a reconfiguring of how we do global health how do you see the appropriate relationship between the State Department and also the relationship between those entities and NIH and the other technical agencies that really have the health expertise how should we be organized to be better at getting these things to scale in the field congressman thank you for your leadership and also your staff are always extremely knowledgeable and accessible so we appreciate that I work for an organization led by a proud graduate of the University of Minnesota and we're trying to find a vaccine to prevent tuberculosis which as you know is one of the leading killers of women of child bearing age about a million women a year but when you talk about the focus on HIV and how can we spread that around I think one of the issues is partly Dr. Hanson from the World Bank said they're sort of seen as an easy solution in some ways there but also there are a million Americans living with HIV and half a million Americans who die of AIDS and unfortunately the things we're talking about today Americans don't think affect them so I don't know how to make them do that because it's really an uphill battle but one thing might be 60 minutes to the show a few months ago on Plumpy Nut the feeding for children and maybe there's a way to get 60 minutes interested in kind of a positive aspect of maternal health such as showing how this sort of diver suits that women can wear to prevent hemorrhage can prevent women from bleeding to death during childbirth or some other maybe more positive way because Americans do tend to kind of tune out or look away when something seems too depressing so I don't know if that's something that you all can help kind of reach out to people in the media and say here's a way you can tell a positive story but otherwise I'm afraid Americans will feel like it has nothing to do with them and they won't want to spend money on it. Thanks. Well Americans do spend money through many of the charities and churches and that it's just that we haven't been able to harness collectively to turn those individual movements to expand those and then turn it into a political movement here in this country much as you were pointing out we need to do in Africa and Asia and other parts of the world the the letting people know about successes is really important and it's letting people also know how if we fail to do this how it will have a direct impact on the health economy of the United States and I think each one and one kind of brought that up to light. That's one of the big reasons why I founded I'm the founding grandmother of the Global Health Caucus is because members of Congress and their staff need to have information about what works, what's going on just general education on these issues and so we're always thrilled when CSIS comes and helps and does a briefing in that but in people's day to day lives right now dealing with in Congress dealing with home foreclosures health care, returning wounded soldiers the economy, everything else on unless there is some place where people know they can go get information when they need to get it and that's kind of why we formed the Global Health Caucus and a lot of you provide that information too kind of one stop shopping then if it's not easy to accumulate that data they'll walk away from it but the other part of it is if you're out in your constituency and I have a constituency that talks about these issues greatly if you have a constituency that knows that they're welcome in your office to come talk about it or they need to come to your office and talk about it they will move they will be more moved to action so those of you who are NGOs here it's great that you come see me up on the hill and it's great that you have folks who come with you to Washington every once in a while but you should have people who are checking in two or three times a year in the district office invite the district office person to coffee and a round table with some of your people who are donors or knitting hats for newborn infants and say this is really important to us because I know when I go to a Lutheran church in Minnesota and my mother was Lutheran I'm Catholic or if I go to the archdiocese I know that they have a relationship with a church or a relationship with an orphanage does your member of Congress know that probably not we keep a lot of this very hidden and we need to make it real at a district level so it just isn't so I met with this group in Washington and I signed on to the bill so that they know that there's people back home constantly putting pressure on it and kind of closing with what do we do with Trim and Berman well we're going to love them to death because I do he has really felt like he's been waiting to see what happens at USAID he's been waiting to see where the Obama administration is going to go with its foreign policy he's been kind of waiting to see what's happening with we have the the whole other foreign policy issue in Afghanistan and some of the other complex countries we're in and I'm encouraging him to do what he's waiting I'm encouraging him and I think we should all encourage him to have a day on the hill where some of these bills are just heard doesn't mean that there has to be a vote immediately taken on but so that the committee is informed and there's some real discussion and there's some real action and then after we have that day on the hill where the bills are heard and all that then I think we need then we can say okay so now that you've heard them it's time to herd them into some policy here and I really think having a USAID director is going to help Secretary Clinton is supposed to be giving a major address tomorrow I believe and we're excited to hear what that is but we need the administration also to be putting some pressure on congress to move forward here's our problem in the house in all politics as locals I'll talk about house politics we have sent so many good ideas over to the senate that we're we're kind of just kind of waiting for them to get caught up a little bit before we send them more good ideas but I'm looking forward for the day when the senate starts sending us back some good ideas so I think Chairman Berman I'm encouraging him to hold hearings on the bill I'll tell you the reason why the child marriage language was included in the last big step they did was because of all the work that you folks did and what he was hearing from his district back home on this issue as well as what was starting to happen with some of the media in the press we can do the same thing on foreign assistance, reform and that's a given but until that reform bill happens children still go hungry children still dying mothers are still dying to your point about 60 minutes in celebrating successes let's not forget to celebrate our successes and you do amazing things you really do, you do amazing things every day with your advocacy you make the difference in the life of a child we just want to make a difference in the lives of so many more children thank you very much for inviting me here today


But it's really not Coronaville today. Tim Apachele, Winston Welch, Stephanie Dalton, Cynthia Sinclair, you know we can dispatch with Coronaville by saying it's getting much worse. Trump is doing nothing about it. We're not sure the distribution of the vaccines. We're not sure if they're going to work and right now they haven't yet had any effect. That's where we are on Coronaville. But let's talk about what happened yesterday. Let's continue the conversation from rediscovering in America that Tim was doing with you guys yesterday. Let me start with Tim. Tim, what does this teach us? I know there's a lot of lessons involved. But what's the first one comes to mind? First one comes to mind is when you start to see a leader that's acting more as an autocrat, point it out and take it seriously. Don't just say, oh that's just Donald Trump being Donald Trump. When you see it, you smell it. Most likely it's the real deal. And we didn't, as a nation, we didn't recognize early enough that he was capable of doing what we saw yesterday. We just passed it off as Donald being Donald. That's the first thing we should learn is when you see an autocrat, treat them like an autocrat. Right. Okay, all right. And you know what? When you say that, I think to myself, well maybe the nation didn't recognize it, but we here on Think Tech, we recognized that we were predicting these things a long time ago. And maybe we should have been more strident in our predictions. But maybe we were thinking we were out there and that there were people who wouldn't believe anything along those lines. Then in fact, we were right. We were right from day one. Well, we were out there and we got treated as such.  We're not the only ones. Cynthia, what do you make of this? And let me be more specific. What do we do about it? I mean, there's all kinds of commentary going on on the television, the radio, at least the television and radio that I listen to. And people don't necessarily agree on what should be done. What are your thoughts? I'm glad you gave me this question. Thank you. And do you remember yesterday when I yelled sedition? Still, even more so. So I have today the U.S. Code, 18 U.S. Code number 2384, seditious conspiracy with two or more persons in any state or territory or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspired to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority therefore, or by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States, contrary to the authority thereof. They shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned, not more than 20 years or both. And I say 20 years, maximum fine, all of them, including Donald Trump. I suppose he just pardons himself tomorrow. Well, got that. That is why I would like the 25th Amendment to be enacted now. So he cannot pardon himself or pardon any of these people that are going to be charged with sedition. Okay, now let's be candid, okay? You think that has a chance of happening? Yes, actually I do. Watching the news as I have this morning, every single pundit, even the Republicans, are talking about it. And now we've already got impeachment articles already being drawn up right now in the House. Which one do you prefer? The 20 minutes faster. Okay. Stephanie, you're into psychology. I wonder, you know, is this really a 25th situation? Let me add, if you haven't seen it, there are a lot of staffers in the White House who are leaving the White House. And in fact, the wife of Mitch McConnell, Elaine Chow, is it Secretary of Transportation Cabinet-level position, has quit. And a lot of people believe that he's really not so. And what has come out of this is that he's been stomping around the White House. He's been muttering to himself. He's a basket case. So anyway, there's a 25th work. And can you talk about the procedure by which Stephanie's dream can be realized? I want Cynthia's dream realized. And I want it immediately. And I think the 25th Amendment is the only way we get that. Yeah, it has to be out today or tomorrow or out of power and pants in instead. And of course, based on the fact that the competence was not there for the vulnerability this country has in its disarray before we had the major disarray in the domestic sense. So now that he's disturbed and coming to terms with his conditions and making difficulties, he's much less competent. So the incompetence, he's not capable of managing a major attack, which I am shocked that nobody is thinking about because we're sitting here. Everything totally messed up and our enemies are out there and they could certainly take advantage of this. Now, I think we need to thank God and our allies and our enemies for not doing anything, but it's not over yet. I mean, it could be sideways. Let's talk about the procedure though, Stephanie. What has to happen? Well, what has to happen is there has to be a letter coming from the cabinet up to, I guess, the Congress. So there's a two letter writing thing. So they ask for permission to believe him of duty and put it in the vice president. And then it has to come, then the whole cabinet has to show their agreement on that. And then they put the letter in again. I think, I guess it's to the Congress. I'm not sure on that. But there is, but that could happen. The cabinet are all his appointees. Many of them haven't been even consented to. You think they're going to vote against him? I mean, they're not the kind of people you would rely on, actually. Well, very iffy, unless they are all seen, and they're not all seen, as always Winston said, they'll come to their senses and they'll turn it all around. But this has propelled some of them to change their minds.  And then she signed on and then immediately things started to happen. And then she had some insight and decided to get out. So I mean, they can change their minds. So as you said, Elaine Chao's going and Pence seems to want to play by the rules and would probably cooperate. And the rest of them are probably in the process of considering what to do themselves. Yeah. You know, in the last hour, we had Chuck Crumpton show on it's really a cousin of what we do here. And we had we had one one speaker there, one panelist who said, we have to, you know, hold Trump accountable. We have we have to he liked it. I think he liked the impeachment road. But he would also consider the 25th. And then Jeff Portnoy said, which made me think of you, he said, no, no, no, this is time for healing. You know, there's 70 million people out there, they're not going to like it. And, you know, they're going to be in the streets over it. And and we're not going to heal at all. We're going to have further divisiveness and who knows what, maybe further violence. So it's not a good idea, you know, to bring this to a head and try to have retribution or, you know, oversight over Trump now or even later. And we need to heal the country. That was his point. And then they said, then the moderator, Chuck Crumpton said, well, you know, we have a we have a tie here. One guy is on one side of this issue. One guy is the other side. We'll have the third guy break the tie. And he immediately said, no, we need to have accountability. Whereupon Jeff Portnoy said, let's get somebody else to break the tie. But the point is that we haven't learned our lesson. We have to have learned our lesson that the the man, the president will not stop. So if he isn't held accountable and given consequences, he will do the next worst thing. That's a good point. Winston, what do you say to that? This dumpster fire of a presidency is almost over, whether it's two weeks from now or tomorrow or today. The damage is done. And the main issue right now is how much more damage can you do in two weeks? And does does that need to be stopped right now? And I would say yes, via the 25th Amendment. And until yesterday, I think you would have had a lot of people saying on the Republicans, I'd say, oh, no, just let him finish out. He can't be that much more dangerous. He had his people go to the Congress and who knows, they were armed and dangerous. They had, were holding senators and representatives hostage in the Congress. They could have slaughtered them. We don't know what would have happened. But those Republicans, the ones that supported him and the ones that are, what do we call them now going to be free of Trump's influence as time goes by? The breakaways, the McConnell's of yesterday, from yesterday onwards. They were also under siege. So was Mike Pence. They were going in there saying, where's Mike Pence? They weren't doing it to liberate Mike Pence. They were going in there because Donald Trump told them he's on my official enemies list now. And so many words, as was McConnell and anybody else who opposed him. So if those people didn't get the bejesus scared out of them, they're not paying attention. And so at this point, for their health and safety, for the health and safety of America, of course, the supporters are going to be mad, you know, it's not going to, it's not going to, it's not going to matter. It's two weeks, two weeks not going to make a difference in the destruction that Donald Trump could do. Not the nuclear code. Yeah, he needs to be gone right now. His two weeks left are not going to shorten his awfulness. Well, actually it would shorten his awfulness because he could do tremendous damage in the next two weeks or the next two hours. So we need to be very confident of that and do the 25th amendment. Although, do we even know who the cabinet members are at this point? Could they round them up? And when you've lost someone like Elaine Chao, who was arguably a moderate person married to Mitch McConnell, she might have been like the one needed that you need to sign on for the amendment to take place. But from what I understand, if he signed it and then Donald Trump said, no, I am competent, it goes back to the Senate, they can deliberate for 21 days and they don't have to give a ruling. But Mike Pence would be in effect the president during that time. From what I understood yesterday, from what my simple reading, and Mike Pence, he's already chosen his side at this very late day. These guys were a day late in the dollar chart, but at least they showed up at the very, very end to do, to put the country over this, this field to Donald Trump. But it was very, very late in coming. And I'm glad they made it finally, but they should not be applauded. They should just be recognized that they made a right decision at the very last second. Tim, what about the party? What about the Republican Party? The commentators calling the Republican Party dead today on television. They were saying it's gone. They're moonwalking as fast as they can right now. They realized that Donald Trump has done something so horrific as the party leader that they've followed blindly and loyally to. They realized that he's between the phone call to the Secretary of State of Georgia, that one hour transcript, plus the enticement and incitement for his followers to trash the Capitol. They know that's a bridge too far and they are going to moonwalk away. They already aren't right now, but you watch in the next three weeks, more and more are going to say, what a horrible man Donald Trump was as a leader. So to discuss the merits of 25th Amendment or the impeachment, it's not about now. It's about the next Democrat or the next Republican or the next independent who becomes the nominee then, but president to think twice, think three times before they try to pull off something that Donald Trump has pulled off. It's to send a message and a lesson. Thou shall not mess with this government and the democracy of this government. What about his chances in 2024? Remember 70 million people voted for him. Do you think he has a flying chance after this? Jay, this is nothing more for him to raise more money. He's not serious to run in 2024. Look, as far as his mental capability, he's not going to have it in 2024. He's falling apart right now. He's unraveling.  So all this is like the protest of the vote that the vote was stolen. It was, you know, I've been cheated out of this presidency of a second term. All this is about is raising money for his own campaign and his own, his own ability to fly wherever he wants or pay for attorneys or whatever he's doing with the $300 million that he's raised since November the third. That's all this is. 2024 is just a campaign raised effort. I agree. I agree that that is an important point and that's his leverage. I mean, assuming he, you know, stays sentient and competent and he can use that money. It was a lot of money, as I recall. You had the figure last time was something over 200 million, was it? I think he's closer to 300 million now. Okay, so that's, that's critical because that allows him to primary other Republicans and to fight the Democrats in 2024 and means a lot. The money means a lot, you know, fall over attorneys, Jay, pay for attorneys. Yeah, but here's the thing. And I want to propose an idea that I've had to Cynthia and see what she thinks. Okay. Yesterday, they ransacked the Capitol of the United States. And you mentioned, Cynthia, that that's criminal what happened there and Trump ought to be, you know, prosecuted for that. And he can be by even by the Department of Justice memorandum, you know, limiting prosecution of a sitting president, he's going to be out of office in two weeks. And he won't be, you know, protected by that. And somebody can prosecute him. I don't know if Merrick Garland is going to do that. He'll be Department of Justice.  So who's to say, but there's another angle here. The damage to the Capitol, my guess, just off the wall, looking at the photos was maybe 30, 40, 50 million dollars meant to put the place back together again is going to cost the taxpayers a ton of money. And this damage was done by Trump at Trump's suggestion by his agents. And it seems to me that he has civil liability for that much money. And furthermore, if a judgment is obtained, that judgment can go against his big pack money that he controls, and all of a sudden his 300 million dollars ain't 300 million dollars. And by the way, I think they could also get a punitive damages. So what do you think about that idea? You think it's worth doing that? Well, I think that my smile kept getting wider and wider and wider, as I heard you talking about the things that we could do. And yes, I think he should absolutely be responsible. You know, you talk about some of the people that were involved in this. There was a guy named Derek Evans, who was just recently elected to the West Virginia House. And he was there. There's a picture of him with one of those helmets on going yelling and screaming. So we need to remember that this isn't just a problem with the White House and the Cabinet or the Congress. It trickles all the way down to, you know, to all of the people that. So I mean, this is just an example of what's out there. And Republicans have been, I don't know, worming their way. It's the only way I can think of, worming their way into these state houses so that they can control more. And so I think people need to really start being more aware of their local, you know, their local elections, their local people. Because it really does matter. We don't think about that. We all get involved in these presidential elections and, you know, senators and all this stuff. And we forget about how important the state guys are, the local governors and mayors. And so I think it's important for us to really start looking now that people are involved. Let's all start really looking at all this down ballot stuff too. Yes, it's important to have a really good president. We didn't have one last time. I believe we will have one this time. And I think you really start looking at that. Stephanie, you know, we've been talking about the base over the past four years. And it's been sort of a generic term. And, you know, the definition is elusive, exactly. Who are they? Can you show me a person from the base? Can you define them? Can you give them character? Can you give us a little detail on what kind of people are in the base? And it strikes me that yesterday we saw them up front. We saw the base. They came from all over the country.  I mean, what did it reveal to us about this pernicious group of people who would engage in such activities? What do we know more about them now? Well, you know, we don't know enough about some sectors, layers, stratifications of the population and the kind of sampling that the polls do. And what's so interesting to me is that a colleague of mine is just publishing a paper about who are the educated college women or who are the unedged looking at the women. And so she's been digging into the polls to find out all the confusions that there are in the definitions of educated, somewhat educated, and it's not even clear as to who are these educated people with bachelor's degrees, or are they with AA degrees, or Tamgit, or what. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. I think that's the tip of the iceberg. And as I saw these men yesterday, I know there's that sad story of the woman that was shot. I don't understand how she got in there, but she did. Four people died. This one was shot by the police. But here Nancy Pelosi's office was a guy, white guy, okay, white, you know, mature, wonderful guy with his boots on, his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk. And all of them going through there, you know, were in that, what, 30, well, I saw him as 30 to 60 people, you know, healthy, white males. And so with whom we didn't know about whether they were armed or not, we couldn't really tell, think the heavens that that kind of wasn't an issue either. But so I think your question is so important because we do need to know who are these people in his base. And I, because we need to know how it is that they think and how we need to understand them. So I think your question is so important. And we need that research done on who they are. And why is it that I understand that the motivation for some of these senators and reps in participating in the charade, sham and coup, that they're trying to get a position in the minds and in the consideration of these people to go for them as the next president or for whatever their political goals are. So what is it that they value in these people? And then that the controversy about that is, it's a Trump thing, and it really isn't replicable. So Trump has no values. He has no ideology, just all about him. And I think these people are focused on him as a cult. But let's go further. Winston, you know, we are going to learn a lot about government and building security in Washington, about how the Capitol Police function or should function, how the Washington Police Department functions or should function.  We learned a lot yesterday about that, but we will learn much more because undoubtedly there will be an investigation. It'll last for a while.  You know, it could be that they were even a little soft on the protesters. They let them in. Somebody told me that they were taking snapshots with their cameras, you know, and it's like a festival, which is just screwball crazy for police to do that. In any event, at the same time, the people who were there, the protestors is the wrong word, the insurrectionists, they also learned and will learn by an examination of what happened, how to organize, what kind of things to bring, what kind of weapons to bring, how you how you breach a government building, what you do when you get inside, you know, sort of a focused attack, what kind of command control and communications. You know, this is actually at the end of the day, it's scary because the next time may not be easy to quell. What do you think? Well, you know, we had a test run in Michigan, didn't we, with the State House there being taken over and nothing done. And that was a shocking display of folks going in there like that. And of course, we want our government buildings to be open and accessible to normal people. But when there's a riot coming that's going to destroy or attack your fundamental, you know, institutions of government, based on, you know, a demagogue like this, we have to really rethink about, and you notice this in any new federal building designs, they have, they're set back from the street, they have blast barriers, they have the whole a lot of security built into them. Something was up with this today yesterday because I saw that the officers going backwards, you know, they weren't firing warning shots and say, you need to disperse. There was no, you know, wall of pepper spray that could have been dispersed. I don't know what was going on. I heard 35. Capitol Police were there. I also heard about the selfie thing. But on the other side, I had heard that maybe they were told, give all possible restraint, because we don't want to create a martyrdom situation here for these folks who said that they were prepared to die. And that might be why they didn't respond. I don't know. Like you said, we're going to find out a lot more. But we absolutely, this is part of this entire repair and revision and just looking at our basic structures in society. So it's not only the laws and the mechanisms, but it's also the, we have to include the physical structures. Now, Donald Trump's, the White House is completely surrounded by a massive wall now. So that place is secure. But the fact that the Congress wasn't, when they knew this, there were meetings with the Attorney General, with the National Security Advisor this week about how and others in the White House about how they were going to deal with these crowds and what they should do, why that didn't take place when they knew this was going to be an issue. And he invited people to be wild at 11 a.m. on Wednesday. And this wasn't absolutely prepared for, is shocking and inexcusable. Well, I think it doesn't demonstrate that the government under Trump has become incompetent. And this is just part of that incompetence. You know, it's fragmented. There's no leadership. There's no morale. There's no organization. And a lot of agencies have been hollowed out. And at the same time, the country is in a kind of civil war right now. It's so divided. And then people walk around with guns and breach the state houses and the Congress. I mean, we have a major problem Biden's going to have to address.  What about the National Guard? What about the Army? What about the Chiefs of Staff? How did they play in this? What drummer were they listening to? Well, you know, that's really interesting, Jay. That's a great question because there are reports that the Chief of Staff went directly to Mike Pence and said, I think we got to get some security in here. We're going to have to get some National Guard in here. And isn't it odd that they wouldn't even think to consider going to Donald Trump, their boss? And, you know, Mike Pence stepped up to the play. I'm not a fan of Mike Pence. I think he's been a real enabler of this dictator of ours. And he has a lot of blame. But yesterday he stood up. He stood up on his hind legs, and he played the role that he was took the oath of office to. I'm glad it happened. But Mike Pence was a big part of this. Yeah, but where was the Army? Why didn't the Army show up? Well, it's the National Guard, Jay. The Army installations around Washington. Why didn't they help? It would be the National Guard. And so the Virginia National Guard and 200 of the state police were called in. They just weren't there in time. They called in the troops. You know, the Calvary way too late. Yeah, that was a piece about a woman. I think she was a legislator or a staffer in the Capitol building. And she got on the phone and she called the joint chiefs.  Can you get over here? And she got no response from them. So it was an imperfect reaction for sure. We're almost out of time. And I just want to ask you guys one more question. Go around the horn here. What comes to mind on the question of how this affects our democracy? Cynthia? I am shocked that I'm going to be quoting Bill Barr because I'm just shocked to even hear this from him, to be honest. He says, orchestrating a mob to pressure Congress is inexcusable. The president's conduct yesterday was a betrayal of his office and supporters. And I think he should take it one step further and say, and the whole country, not just his supporters. And my hero of the week goes to the staffers, the girls, the clerks who went back and rescued all of the votes and the electoral college, the Electoral Club paperwork, because had that been taken or destroyed, they would have had to go all the way back to the states again and have the states reissue those. Yeah. Very good point. Very good point. Stephanie, what's your thought? How does this affect our democracy? Well, I think that this experience as harrowing and frightening as it has been, has educated the entire nation. I mean, on the way our government works, I think that our best benefit out of it is that, certainly, there are a few people who haven't learned more about how a democracy works, what democracy means, and what it is we have to do to preserve and protect it. So I think that we've got a plus. That's silver lining. And that will bode us well going forward because we have run off the cliff, all right, off the tracks, and we've got to get back on. And now the whole country is a little bit better informed about how to do that and what has to happen. Hope so. What about you, Winston? You have family on the East Coast. They don't particularly support progressive and liberal views, and they are Republicans and Trumpers. You think this changed their thinking? Well, like every family in America, we have people that have supported Donald Trump for whatever reasons. I think that there's got to be some sort of carrier wave on Fox News because that's the primary problem as far as I could tell, although they're migrating fast to Newsmax in America 1 and soon Trump TV. But if this doesn't wake up people and say, this is not about this man's non-policy, and when you ask her, what's the good that he's done in this nation? This is the legacy of Donald Trump, is the Capitol being trashed and ransacked by the Zagots and Vandals. And that's his legacy.  And that's the legacy that we've got. If people don't see it, they just need to go look around. They need to go to Safeway or Costco and look, you've got to wear a mask to get in. How many times do we afford to have this before people get the idea? Well, if this doesn't happen, then the message is not going to get through. Tim, one of the things of interest is the woman who was shot. Somebody in the government had a gun. I'm not sure that it was the Capitol police. I doubt it was. It might have been intelligence agencies in blue suits inside the Capitol building, and this woman was too aggressive, and they shot her. How do you feel about the fellow who shot her? Is he a hero or a bum? How do you feel about dealing with people who come and ransack the heart of our government this way? Should they be shot? Two answers to this. First, I'd like to address Winston. Winston, I am a descendant of vandals in Vithigas. Number two is, Jay, they found individuals with loaded, locked and loaded weapons. They found bombs within the Capitol. What have we become if we can't protect our own Capitol? Again, if you attack the Pentagon, I guarantee you're shot on site. You try to gain entry into a military base. You are shot on site. Is he a hero? I wouldn't say he's a hero, but he did his job. He did what he was instructed and trained to do, and it's unfortunate that someone thought they had the carte blanche authority to go in there and jeopardize the lives of our senators and congressmen and do so without any consequences and do so with impunity. I'm sorry this woman was shot and died. Again, lessons need to be learned on both sides, and certainly any would-be Trump protester that thinks they can go in with their AK-47s and have no consequences, they should think again. Yeah, and what's ironic about it is they weren't wearing masks or abiding by social distancing, and in two weeks' time, whether they stay in jail or not, they'll probably be sick. I guess there is a justice there. Cynthia Sinclair, Stephanie Dalton, Tim Appichella, Winston Welch, thank you so much you guys. There's more to come, I guarantee we'll be talking about this some more next week. Aloha.