How are you feeling? Great. A little bit worried about the questions you might be asked today? No. Who came up with this idea? Okay. What is your name and what do you do? Roger Noble, counter terrorist ambassador for Australia. Ambassador, what is it that you actually do? That's a good question. So actually I'm very lucky. So I represent Australia offshore with our international partners of which we have many on the any issue related to counter terrorism. Does this involve being involved in counter terrorism operations? Not if I can help it. So no, it's not an operational position but we do care about counter terrorism operations and we're trying to enable all of our other agencies to be successful and to keep Australians safe. Do you have a favourite quote? Make your own luck, Ernest Hemingway. Is counter terrorism still relevant when compared to the other priorities facing the world? Absolutely.  So it remains really important that the counter terrorist effort is effective. No matter what other challenges we face and Australia like most countries faces quite a few. Do you have a particular philosophy? Ooh, that's deep. So frankly, I'm a stoic. So I don't believe you control much but what you do control is yourself. What are your views on big tech and their responsibilities in relation to countering terrorism? Well, it's the 21st century so big tech has big impact on all of us basically through the control and flow of information so I think they have an obligation along with all of us to manage violent extremism online and to get that material off and to help us all keep people safe and stop the spread of the appeal of violent extremism. Is it okay to have extreme and radical ideas? Yeah, if it's missing the word violent in our country, it's okay. So we don't have to like what you think and that's a good thing, it's a democracy but when there's violence or the spread of violence that's where the line is. If you could give your teenage self a piece of advice, what would it be? Surf more. What are the consequences of the Afghanistan withdrawal? We'll see. So clearly with Afghanistan there's a pretty much a global concern that violent extremism does not do well there and it doesn't turn into a safe haven that enables the projection of transnational terrorism around the globe as happened in 2001. What is the extreme right wing? Aren't they just a bunch of people who look like they belong on the set of a movie? Good question. The extreme right wing pulls in what we call ideologically motivated violent extremism. It's another ideology that is as violent at its heart which we need to counter and it's a pretty amorphous grouping and it can look like the set of a movie and takes ideas from the past but in the 21st century it remains a problem for Australia. What should take priority human rights or preventing terrorism? So part of our approach to preventing terrorism is staunch adherence to human rights and respect for people. Fundamentally terrorists don't respect people and we do. Is the internet helping or preventing terrorism? That's a big question. The internet is the internet. The digital age is the digital age which means information flows around the globe immediately and gets into everybody's hands. So it can both aid terrorists in helping them do what they do and it can be a key tool in helping us prevent it by putting a counter narrative and explaining to people why terrorism is not what we should be doing. What are your proudest professional achievement? Actually fighting terrorists in the army mainly 2016 in Iraq helping the Iraqis get back for leisure and liberate Mosul. Where do you see the world heading in the future? What can be done to overcome them? Well, the world is changing really quickly. Everybody sits and says that. But in this world the rate of change is exponential especially technology. So I think we're going to have to deal really with ubiquitous information flowing everywhere immediately. And that means that we're going to have to talk more, communicate more and make a compelling case to stop the spread of violent extremism. What do you want to achieve with the terrorist ambassador? I want Australia's relationships internationally to be first-rate. And when we really need help to help Australians somewhere we've got a network we can leverage and that we're respected in the reverse that when other countries need help from us they know they can get it.


hat surround way goings and getting fair way goings then a lot of these issues surrounding succession asset and conversion the driver for that is less critical so I personally agree entirely with Chris on the point of view that the amnesty is here to value the improvements it's not to value the improvements in any shape or form but I personally don't think that there should be a time limit of 30 years on it I think that the value is what the value is to the incoming tenant and it may be that it has no value it may be that it has a lot of value and it's beyond 30 years but that's got to be done on an individual basis and a case by case basis Chairman here Both those points that Chris said about the improvements that are eligible for compensation and that they need to be brought up to date as in their view that was drafted in the 1940s obviously that would be interesting to see if others think that the improvements that are eligible for compensation should also be brought up to date I think that the Government is in the process of trying to work us out at the moment There's anachronism in there Good, good, good Excellent, thank you Well, let's move on to the improvements by the landlord Alec Ferguson I think that this probably needs up to take a huge amount of time but in specific terms of improvements made by the land owner as I'm sure everybody is aware section 96 inserts a new section into 91 act which would require landlords to give notice tenants of those certain improvements in court and I just wonder how any panel members who have a comment to make on that, what they feel about it There's a huge outbreak of consensus here, convener Which is very welcome Resolving disputes, Sierra Boyack Thanks very much, convener The issue of resolving disputes is really important and clarity on different processes and when you would want to engage the land court is really important so the bill extends the role of the land court in resolving disputes arising from the amnesty and improvements and deciding on applications from the tenant for an enforced sale and in ruling where a tenant is objected to a proposed improvement by a landlord it would still have a role in rent review disputes using the revised rules for calculating rent I just want to test out some of the written evidence we've had from Sabra and Rix who claim that it's not a suitable forum for rent review disputes and that a rent assessment panel or an arbitration process would be more important so I want to tease out some of those comments I don't think we're taking the land court away altogether but we're saying that there is a more appropriate and proportional way of resolving a lot of these disputes before they get to the land court and that should be given a higher priority and given particularly under the arbitration 2010 act which the Scottish Government are promoting are heavily in key to the policy that that should be brought into the agricultural tenancy world so we're not suggesting taking the land court away but we're saying arbitration is there it's available let's make the arbitration act fit agricultural circumstances and other mediation or expert determination as well but that would resolve a lot of angst within the sector it's the dispute resolution which is causing having to refer and revert to the land court to resolve a lot of these disputes it's causing a lot of problems I think we've got a sense of that from our previous discussions on agriculture holdings because going to the land court is very lengthy as a process it's also time consuming it is also very expensive for people to actually go when you get into that position it's presumably also incredibly confrontational and very difficult to pull back so I think that idea about arbitration is important how would you actually ensure that it is included in the process so that people have access to arbitration because it's possible that if one side doesn't want to go to arbitration nothing happens and that's effectively a way to veto anything happening there are a couple of ways to do that one is by making it so that it can by referral by one of the parties which would avoid the need to be an agreement between the parties to go to arbitration I suppose the sorry I've lost my thought but I was going to come on to mediation because I think that mediation has been underplayed particularly in the agricultural sector and I think that there's a greater role to be played to avoid that confrontation and to try and encourage parties to come to agreement between themselves by a referral perhaps it's the commissioner's job to bring in a mediator to resolve the dispute or perhaps the land court to not to entertain cases that haven't had been to another forum first before they get there there's a whole raft of possibilities within that that would take away a lot of the angst so you'd see the land court as a last resort rather than the first port of call definitely and I suppose having the tenant farming commissioner involved in that process would be what's reasonable how long would people have to wait to go to mediation or arbitration because that would be one way to drag out a dispute but it's not resolving yet okay thanks I'm just wondering with regards to trying to encourage people we think the land court should be the backstop for these disputes it has to go that far but we thoroughly support the idea of mediation and arbitration before that and I wonder if it's something simple along the lines that if you did end up going to land court when it comes to awarding things like costs for whose sort of the dispute if you hadn't gone through the process of arbitration and mediation that forms a factor in awarding of the costs and it may come account against you if you don't take part in mediation and arbitration I think that's fair Christopher Nicholson just a quick observation the land court may well be an appropriate place to go for a question that is a point of law but many of the disputes that end up in the land court are disputes over valuations which is really the role of an expert valuer so it would make sense to try and through mediation or expert determination or arbitration to ensure that those questions attempt to be addressed before the land court stage I think we've got a general agreement on that point okay thinking about the human rights aspects of the bill obviously there are issues which have been raised already by people about the proposal for the conversion of 1991 tenancies which might affect both parties the widening of the character and the successors and assignee categories which could also alter that balance part 10 seeks to strike a fair and proportionate balance between the rights of the landlord and tenants and the government is attempting to try and consider how this law work in the light of case law etc I'm concerned you know that we need to have some kind of view from you about the relative impact of these proposals in the round on the rights of both parties in the light of our discussions earlier do you see the proposals that were come before us as being proportionate Christopher Nicholson The review group has attempted to address the balance between tenants property rights and landlords property rights I think at the stage we are at the moment there's a lot of uncertainty over the legal implications of human rights and human rights is the framework to give the balance certainly for tenants bearing in mind the changing nature of tenancies the tenants themselves are putting more and more fixed capital into holdings I don't think that balance I don't think that the bill as it stands goes far enough to address that balance and ECHR implications have caused a great deal of caution and concern and it's certainly overshadowed the whole process Andrew Howard and David Johnson I think I should qualify this by saying I'm in no way an ECHR expert looking at the two main provisions that could potentially engage ECHR it seems to me and looking at it from our businesses point of view that conversion if the balance was right could find or deliver a proportionate response to the policy objective which is to encourage retirement and perhaps allow greater flexibility in the system you could see that the outgoing tenant would feel that something had been obtained it might introduce an opportunity for an incoming tenant and the landlord may feel that their circumstances in some cases where for instance they thought they'd got a line of succession ahead of them was also improved because they'd now got a fixed term tenancy so that looks as if you might find balance looking at it as a layman I find it more difficult to see how that balance is going to be found in the provisions as they're stated for assignation and succession but also in ideas that have been raised here today about open assignation of 1991 act tenancies where effectively the owner of the property is deprived of all real legitimate expectation of having the property back at any point they've effectively had that property placed permanently in the secure tenancy sector no hope of getting it back I'm not clear what the public policy objective is in doing that and I'm not clear that even for some of the suggestions that have been made today that there aren't more proportional responses that could be adopted so to use an example for assignation and succession one of the things you could do is you could target the provisions at the people that are actually affected so that might be those non-linear relative successors who are actively engaged in the business and would suffer hardship if they couldn't do that but I'm not quite sure that I understand the public interest in that tenant being able to assign that to a heart surgeon niece who lives in London I don't feel that that is a proportionate response to the stated objective so I think that's at risk Andrew is very eloquently laid out pretty much what I was going to say I think there are some sections in the bill which have struck that fair balance between landlords and tenants' rights and that's things like where the landlord's in breach of his obligations there's plenty of safeguards in there for the landlord to rectify the position to give him a chance to make it right before the draconian measure of losing the property is brought into place conversion is the next step on from that if you like again if it's on a measured length of term then it has the possibility or the probability of doing what's required in the public interest argument and allowing the churn people to retire with dignity and move on and the landlords themselves do benefit from the point of view that a perpetual tendency is now turned into a fixed term tendency albeit we don't know the duration of the term succession assignation is and also some of the thoughts we've further thoughts we've heard is basically creating the perpetual tendency and from the way we see it you're asking them from the landlord's position to take a disproportionate burden for the delivery of the public policy as Andrew suggests which I'm not entirely too sure what it's trying to achieve by doing this and so we don't believe there is a fair balance struck within that particular measure or within the bill and it looks like it would be struggling to be compatible under the EHR okay does the law society have a view about these discussions or has just been said that that's the one that sticks out particularly in this bill that the landlords might have a claim as it stands at the moment probably would have a claim in these circumstances but your own advisers will be able to get a better handle on it but your own advisers will be able to get a better handle on it okay I'm going to put this another way around there are always political, economic and social issues to be taken into account and in a democratic society the mandate of a Government and the support that it gains within this Parliament could be said to be the public interest and if the public interest has expressed by the mandate for the Government is to make changes to the public interest or the Government is to make changes to actually are going to rebalance rights can we see a means whereby the EHR that Europe sees that as the wish of this particular nation has trumping any particular issues related to the landlord versus the tenant in this case it is for this Parliament to judge whether any bill going through the process is going to give rise to these issues and there's always at the back of the bill a note as to the presumed outcome if you change the text of this as it will be changed it developed before it becomes an act that process continues but it's not for me it's for your own advisers in this Parliament to tell you where you're getting too close to the wind it's a continual process and not just one snapshot the issue can fall in and out even with just two sentences Johnston and then Scott Walker I'll carry out this to say that I'm no expert in this but my understanding of it is there's two real aspects within this there's one is the public interest argument that you're making to try and do what you wish to do within the public interest which comes down to your Government-elected mandate from the people but there's also then within that the recognition that if you decide to do something that has an impact and a material impact upon one section of society then that has to be recognised in carrying out that public interest argument and as we see it on the bill and the face of the bill especially with the succession of assignations there doesn't appear to be any recognition in there at all that the landlords are taking a burden with regards to that change and Scott Walker of the ECHR has certainly clouded some of the discussions that we can have with our members over certain aspects of the bill because in the layman's term we'd be looking at going back to your principles right at the very beginning would dismeasure generate greater investment would dismeasure encourage new entrants into the industry would dismeasure make the businesses more viable and also from NFUS's particular perspective on the land which is an issue for us key for us so certainly clarity on the parameters that could be discussed in these issues would be helpful for the industry to take place in discussion and I think ultimately at the end of this whole process what we'd like to see or what we'd like to avoid is legal disputes that arise where individuals want to challenge this bill and ultimately the courts will decide what's right, right or wrong because the more legal disputes or legal opportunities that arise at the end of this process the more damaging that will be to confidence and the more damaging that will be to actually get what we believe some of the key objectives encouraging people to let land and increasing the amount of let land I've sat down with lawyers I'm more confused than ever whenever I meet them so layman's issues to be put out so the industry could discuss this would be very helpful obviously Europe looks at proportionality and a fair balance in the decisions that are taken and so on the question is whether these fair balances are something which fits whosoever legal advice suggest that ECHR is affected or not I'm not going to try and open up into a wide range of discussion about the law but I'm raising these points because they are germane to what we're talking about just now Christopher Nicholson The discussion about the measures that focus ECHR attention so far have been measures that not all stakeholders have consensus on but there are some significant measures that were put forward by the review group that had the consensus of all stakeholders as far as I know that have been prevented from appearing in the bill due to ECHR and one in particular concerns the amnesty whereby the amnesty was intended to allow compensation for any improvements that were appropriate for the holding the measures in the bills suggest that that's not possible where a landlord has objected to an improvement even though that improvement may be appropriate to the holding our suggestion is that in those situations where a landlord has objected to an improvement it should go through the same test that the land court would apply which is that improvement appropriate to the holding but seemingly due to the restrictions it's possible and it's quite a big hole that in the amnesty picking up that point very briefly I mean that seems curious I wasn't aware that the reason that had been removed was for ECHR reasons but as Scott said that you ask two or three ECHR lawyers and you'll get three different opinions I mean I think what's necessary is a clear statement of the objectives and then a proportional response to that policy objective or you use the least impactful it's the wrong word but I think you know what I mean policy response to the objective in hand and I think what concerns me about assignation and succession as I've said already is that the objective seems somewhat confused and there may well be other ways of doing this in fact there are almost certainly other ways of doing this that have less impact on a certain class of property rights within Scotland and which would still achieve the policy objective David Johnson That's coming on the answer I think we want to go to a catch-all situation now or did you have a right very briefly please We're still got 20 minutes No we haven't we've got as much time as I decide that we've got to have a very short bit here because we want to ask it twice You did say one o'clock earlier but never mind Just on the point of the impact on a certain class of owners it depends how far back you want to go you can go back to 1948 1886 some landlords will go back much further you can go right back to the start to Adam you know when God gave the earth to all of us so it's all it's all relative where I struggle in terms of ECHR is to understand why continuing tenancies even perpetual ones would put any sort of burden on a landlord given that they are getting rent for it it's only a burden if they want to get rid of tenants and do something different but we've got to look at the rights of everyone here a common good and as I say land isn't something you can create any more of it it's a fundamental thing that's given to us all and that is what has to be the overriding factor at the end of the day I think Point is well made Sarah Boyack I just wanted to follow up the point that was made by the STFA about significant measures which had the support of all the stakeholders but haven't appeared in the face of the bill is the amnesty issue the only one or are there other issues where the agriculture holdings review report did come up with measures that was brought agreement on but are not in the bill that you think should be there are quite a few measures amongst quite a few recommendations of the review group that have not made it into the bill I don't know whether the intention is to bring bring them forward at stage 2 or in another Parliament but another key one is the 35 year repairing lease which we saw as quite an important recommendation to the benefit of new entrants which is not in the in the bill catch all things that we can pick up I'm just asking the question because I'd seen one or two comments by different submissions about concerns that things might be added later which changes the balance and it was particularly to pull in where we've got general agreement just to flush those things out so that we've got clarity on it when we get to the stage 1 debate I think we've got there the evidence that we've received but whether there are agreements and whether there are still disagreements which are quite clear in the official report Graham Day Just to wrap things up if that's appropriate in the nature of these sessions raised questions in areas of the bill that they think are appropriate I just wonder, looking round the witnesses is there anything in the bill that we haven't touched upon today that you think is quite significant or you favour a significant point to make on so it could be that opportunity Christopher Nicholson One key part of element of Wager which we think is missing in the bill not only the proposal for a two-stage WAGO process that's been discussed today but also the way improvements are valued at the moment at the moment the value is to incoming tenant and that's in terms of the increase in productivity resulting from that improvement however in this day and age there are all sorts of improvements that tenants make that are required for farming and modern living standards etc do not result in an increase in productivity of the farm so for example modern standards of housing do not result in increase in productivity improvements in terms of a meanity value for example the planting of hedges and other environmental improvements do not result in increased productivity of the holding in agricultural terms and also improvements to do with animal welfare and health and safety and working environment these improvements do not necessarily result in an increase in productivity of the holding but nonetheless should be eligible for compensation if the improvements result in an increase in capital value of the holding so for example a farm with good hedges is worth more possibly due to a meanity value than a farm without hedges and if those hedges were put there by the tenant and that requires a change in the way improvements are valued at Wago I understand what Chris is getting at I think a number of the examples that were listed would probably get included in any valuation at Wago as we currently stand because a better house or meeting modern animal welfare standards etc would improve the farm ability and the productive ability of the farm so I'd be surprised if they didn't get picked up I think it raises a difficult question though if you're going to start to try and compensate for things that no occupier of the farm whether it be the owner or a future tenant can derive any value from for instance a hedge unless that hedge is replacing fencing which would make perhaps a husbandry element cheaper that would be difficult to deal with I think that the measure of the value to an incoming tenant seems by far the most appropriate even if there are a couple of difficulties around the edge because it reflects what the future occupier of the farm can do with it Yes Christopher Nicholson We're not saying that any improvement should be eligible for a valuation what we're saying is that improvement it shouldn't be restricted to improvements that add value for the incoming tenant we should also include improvements that add capital value to the holding The tenant would have received cap money to put the hedges in In some cases yes but we already have methods of dealing with support payments a lot of improvements will have received Government support and that's not a new issue to resolve I think that the catch-off has been answered as far as I'm concerned at the moment if anyone has any points that they need to make they can follow up and writing with us at this point I think I want to thank all our witnesses for what has been a thorough session which is part of a wider process we've had a lot of written evidence as well and it's very helpful to have your views on the day about these things and I would like to conclude this section of the meeting we're going to move on to some further public business straight away because as well as that we have a private section before 1 o'clock thank you all so agenda item 2 you're getting a point we're going to move on to agenda item 2 thank you the second item today is for the two negative instruments can we move on to agenda item 2 please can the members please pay attention to the business just now and can the panel please remove itself we'll hear from you later no doubt if there are points to be raised so we have two negative instruments one the South Arran Marine Conservation Order of 2014 the urgent continuation order 2015 and the Wester Ross Marine Conservation Order of 2015 and I refer members to the papers and ask if there are any comments that they wish to make first of all on South Arran and then on the Wester Ross just on Wester Ross can we note how deeply disappointing it was that the Government had to step in and take this action which is something we should need to explore a bit further perhaps to find out why because we can ask the Government a little bit more about that but I understand it's because of dredging that took place on a site which is designated for an MPA and that they had to take urgent action to do so it would be interesting to see if that happens in other places as well Sarah Boyack I just wanted to say I think we should be welcoming the fact that these bits of secondary legislation are going to be put in place in terms of protect our marine environment as you say and as Graham Dace mentioned there are concerns about dredging the idea of having to bring a continuation order to protect the area I think we should make sure that these go through the Parliament with good speed and get placed in as soon as is appropriate well it sounds to me as though there's nobody who's objecting to that so I ask the committee are we agreed that it does not wish to make any recommendations in relation to these instruments we're agreed thank you very much well at the next meeting of the committee on the 23rd of September we'll be considering one negative instrument and possibly based on earlier discussions taking evidence of agricultural holdings remedial order with the cabinet secretary for rural affairs, food and environment we'll also take evidence from stakeholders on marine protected areas which may begin to answer some of the questions we've just raised as previously agreed committee will now move into private session to discuss evidence heard on the land reform Scotland bill and I'll now close the public part of the meeting and ask for anyone left in the public gallery to go thank you very much


Let's check in on how bond markets are trading with Jessica Russett from FIG Securities. Jessica, thanks for joining us. Now, there's quite a lot of economic data and meetings coming out of the United States, the FOMC meeting, the US jobs data on Friday, weaker sort of vehicle sales data overnight. How are you seeing this play out in US bonds? Good afternoon, Helen. Thanks for having me. That's right. We have had last night, we had a weaker growth come through. They're expecting 1%. It was at 0.7%. Vehicle sales were softer as well. And so it seems that the most recent data sets out of the US have come in weaker than what has been expected. And that concern is also creeping in for the jobs data. Due out on Friday, that too is going to miss expectations as well. And this caution we're seeing come through in bond yields and that there's demand for US Treasuries and those yields are moving lower. The two and 10 year US Treasury yields were two and three basis points, respectively, lower overnight. We have the two year at 1.27%. And the 10 year is at 2.29%. Yeah, so what are you expecting out of the FOMC meeting? Yeah, I think it's very much going to be a matter of not much of a change. I think if anything, the opening statement might be a bit more cautious taking into consideration this weaker data that we have been seeing. I think they will also keep the door open to this rate hike in June. The market is expecting a 70% chance of it going ahead. And that's up from 30% about a month ago. So it very much does see that they are going to sit, wait and see what the data is. But I think that they will go ahead and the rhetoric will be, we're on track for two more rate hikes this year. All right. So just when you say, you know, still on track and that's relatively unchanged, is this latest economic data going to make them think twice about particularly the June rate hike? Potentially, yeah. I think one of the big data points is actually that the jobs wage growth and also the jobs as well. And so on Friday, I think they'll have a better indication. However, they have really set the market up and themselves for a rate hike in June. So I think it would have to be significantly on the weaker side for them not to go ahead with it. As I said with the market expect chances of a rate hike, the market's saying 70%. There would be quite a knee-jerk reaction if they weren't to go ahead or that have to very much communicate to the market that they were pulling back on that if they weren't to go ahead. All right. Now just back home, Aussie yields. What's happening there? Yeah, sure. So Aussie yields we've had relatively steady this week. They've come off their lows on Monday and traded high yesterday, but at the moment have been lower. We've got the five year at 2.12 and the 10 year at 2.59%. We had RBA statement yesterday. There was no cut and no change at all. So the statement was pretty much a carbon copy of the last month as well. And on the back of that, bond yields have been relatively steady as well. Yeah. So what do you think that took out of the RBA meeting? To be honest, there wasn't much of a take out at all, to be honest. Like I said, even this very statement was very similar to the prime month as well. I think the real big thing here domestically that will have any impact on bond yields and also rate changes will be the budget on May 9th that's coming out next week. I think there's quite a bit in there that looks at infrastructure spending. Scott Morrison has really been talking about this good debt. And I think the growth in the spending that we will see come through that or hopefully see come through that, I think that will put pressure on the RBA to maybe potentially increase rates sooner than what they had expected. All right, Jessica Russett from Fig Securities. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Helen. And on that very note...


Welcome to All Hands Up Data, I'm Petty Officer Matthew Halls with your headlines from around the fleet. The Navy's rolling out a plan to issue flame retardant uniforms to all sailors at sea. The three-faced plan includes first educating commands on proper damage control techniques to reduce the risk of injury, then replacing current coveralls with a flame resistant material using the current design, and lastly developing a new uniform that is flame resistant, provides arc flash protection, and contains low lint levels. Sailors from the Office of Naval Meteorology and Oceanography released 10 global drifter buoys from USS Pearl Harbor May 28th. The buoys measure ocean currents, sea surface temperatures, and atmospheric pressure, all of which allow for more accurate weather forecast and can aid in search and rescue missions and disaster response operations. You can read more about these stories at navy.mil. From All Hands Up Data, thanks for watching.


Good evening. Good evening one and all and welcome to today's special event from the Typography Society of India To pay tribute to the legendary professor R. K. Joshi on the occasion of his birth anniversary R. K. has as he was fondly known Professor R. K. Joshi was born in 1936 and left us in 2008 He is known to many people as a calligrapher, a poet, a designer, a typographer, a researcher and Mostly an academician, a very committed and inspiring academician He graduated from the Sir J.J. College of Fine Arts and moved on to Advertising in the early part of his career Eventually he joined IDC, IIT as a senior professor at IIT Bombay and mentored generations of designers before moving on to CDAC So some of his notable professional works include symbols and fonts and also softwares to design fonts Some of the logos you guys must be aware of the welcome group and the very very famous logo of Punjab National Bank He also did the logo for CEA Tires and the India Post, not the one which we used to see today But the one before that, the bold graphic one His Devanagali typeface mungle was also the default font for Microsoft So today we have few of his illustrious former students and colleagues who would be sharing their memories about RK They would walk us down memory lane I understand when we talk about memories, sometimes they are a little painful We get a little emotional sometimes with regret that I would have gotten a chance to speak to him or spend some more time with RK But believe me, when we recall these memories especially of people who have taught us so much, who have mentored us Who have left us inspired to do a certain quality of work in our professional domains These conversations, if not anything else, are most inspiring And many of you guys must have just heard stories about RK or maybe read a few articles on him or may have heard recordings of RK addressing in some of these international conferences But today we will have another very very sort of conversation kind of thing So a very very warm welcome to today's speakers, we have literally the who's who of graphic design slash type design of the country We have Shri Achyut Palav, he does not need any introduction Professor Vinay Sainekar, Shri Rajiv Prakash, Dr. Santosh Sureshagar, Shri S.K. Mohanti, Dr. Uday Kumar and Professor Jeevi Shri Kumar Thank you all of you guys to have agreed to share your memories with RK for today's session by Typography Society of India So all you good people who have taken out time to join us today, sit back and enjoy a little bit of time travel from the eyes and memories of these stalwart speakers I am quite excited to listen to them and to listen to them to talk about RK himself, you know, a revered RK Joshi sir You join us and do leave your comments, observations and if you have some memories of RK, we would be very happy to hear about them So use our different platforms on YouTube and hasgeek.com and leave your comments Once again, welcome everyone and thank you to all our speakers What is a perspective of design? What is a calligraphy? Everything Everything, there is a lot of things to learn from design And when Saran came back that day, Saran explained all the things, but in that there is a lot of things to learn from it And we have to change the way we look at it Because a calligraphy is not a calligraphy But it has no beauty, no proportions It has a natural nature, how it can be and how it can be understood in a short period When Saran came back that day, he explained all the things to me That what we used to do, what we used to write Now we have to change the way we look at it And my first change was when Saran came back Later on, my first change was when Saran came back And Saran just started doing it He was a director of Pulka Bhargaya He was a founder member And wherever he went, he was free, he was free of any type of illustration He was free to sign, he was free to tell anyone And he needed to go to a scholarship Scholarship, like Alia and I, it's been a long time since we started. We are not just drawing or doing graphics, but we also have a lot of things to do, like reading, communication skills, and all these little by little, little by little, little by little, I came to this scholarship, and for a year, I was able to work in that scholarship. And then, I was able to meet Dr. Ashok Kedek, Dr. Daghur, Dr. Ashok Kedek, Dr. Ashok Kedek, and I met a lot of people. And all these people, were very big in that area. I was told that one student and one student were developing, and they were the people who were very big to me. Today, I have a lot of things to do. But just because of that, I came to this scholarship. When I came to this scholarship, in the International College of Arts, there was a seminar, I was told that, you have to make a demonstration on the subject of fashion. So, I told you that I don't know English, not good English. So, I didn't know how to present yourself. I had to look at you. And I think, I had a belief in that, after that. And after that, my work, at an international level, was a little bit of a pain. I had to give advice to the students.  I had to give a different kind of human science to them. And looking at all these people, I felt that I had to change the way I was going. I had to give a different kind of knowledge to them. I had to teach them. And then, I started working in the commercial field. I had a lot of international international work in the center. I had a lot of work. I had a lot of panels. I had to make a lot of work. I had to make a lot of money. I took a lot of money to buy Markets. That's what I understood. Searching for many markets, and searching for many places, is interesting for me SP, deep inside. I had a problem dealing with our job. It was good for me when I started working, and this was a very good thing. And whatever I believe in today, I believe in whatever is in the country. That is just because of Arke Joshi. And without Arke Joshi, I think this country should do the Sulethan Kala, which is a property that I don't have heard of before. And there is a lot of knowledge about the world. There are a lot of Indian Sulethan Kala in this world. If you want to know more about it, please do so. Today is the 7th day. I am very happy to meet you. I am very happy to meet you. Thank you. Hello. I am Santosh. I met Professor Arke Joshi in 1986 first. And I was a student of Bachelor of Fine Arts in J.J. Institute of Applied Arts. I was in my second year as not knowing who was Arke Joshi. And anyway, that was not my fault anyway. I was completely a completely a new generation. And I was introduced to the word calligraphy, not just the subject. First time in my life. And I thought it's just under skill. And I started practicing an abstract assignment which was given to me in school. And then someone told me that if at all you want to go further in calligraphy, there is an international conference happening. This is a story in 1986. Someone told me there is a conference. I said, yeah, I'd love to. But I already came to know that already two people were selected. And I'm nobody anyway in that. So someone suddenly one day told me that Arke was anyway here in the college, J.J. And he's just about to leave college now. He must be with his car. Why don't you go and meet him and plead your place that you are really interested and passionate to go for this workshop. I said, yeah, okay, let me and I went to him. I've told him and I've shown him my work on the road. He was just opening the front door of his car and he said, this is all donkey work what you are showing it to me. This is not a calligraphy. I said, I'm good in my whole class. I'm not a bad student. I'm a good student. And you are saying something else. So what do you want me to do? What do you expect me to do? And he said, there is no care and concern in this donkey work. Although you got good marks. Maybe that was a paradigm shift movement for me within the two days. Not left. I don't remember if I asked that he asked. And I've shown him. He allowed me for the workshop. That was my first exposure to the world. Fortunately, too early in life was not even 18. I suppose I was just 18 and I came across with a world calligraphy in this workshop because he allowed me to simply participate in the workshop which was conducted in IIT IDC. Then onwards, somehow I felt internally that I'm with the community. It's very difficult to understand why you are made, what you are made of in your life and which is your community. Maybe in early age, you're so passionate and maybe so high-skilled person that you can do anything that comes in your way. The issue is what will take you along for a long way and will allow you to do your internal enquiry for a long period of time in your life. For me, I'll give a few words. I don't know whether he also was expecting that they should work on me that effectively. But maybe it's a two-way traffic. It's not one way that the Guru finds Shishya and the Shishya finds Guru. It's both the ways and it's no less time that I was with him to test him for a long time. After 96, to take up a teaching job was his decision about me. I listened to Guru. I kept advertising graphic design, glamorous profession, more money, all that aside. I don't think I have done a big thing or like surrendered all this. No, you just listen to him. Because I was making sense. He was making sense and not so much of convincing me in the way I convince my students today. And I spent so many words and so much of an energy as compared to that. I spent less energy, the specific words. And that also, who is listening, not only who is verbalizing those words. I mean, it was like a decided spiritual point. And he said that you join teaching, I join teaching. And I think to lose and I was always in my life profitable in my own way and profitable not just monetarily, more over value addition, learning, time for myself, so much of freedom, so much to think and read, so much of one-mindedness with so many others without any commercial assignments, relations and networking. It's so nice to know people without any business relation nowadays. Even it's true, even today.  It's rare, but it's beautiful, isn't it? Some I don't know indirectly arcade guided me to the beautiful path. The path was maybe already beautiful. I was unaware. There was a need always that someone should tell me, go this way and move on. Over the period of time, you realize why you were said so by whom. And then after the experience of life, you endorse. Yes, makes sense to you. Anyway, so after Raksha Yoga, then looking back, three years I came across with Karina Meister, Warners Schneider, Nawang Lama, all those people. After graduation, as he said, I joined Sophia College. Till that time, I was asking him what to do. And once I've joined teaching, as if it's like he was knowing why he said what he said so and to me. In 1993, again, he called me because it was like, I like, and he was in academics from his glamorous profession. I think one of the Kag award, you know, Hall of Fame award, you know, in advertising and from the glamorous industry for 18 years to make a big thing, agency like Kulka came down from business point of view to academics. It's a big thing from the point of view of business industry. And yeah, so I confirmed the mentor was absolutely right.  He was always positive. He always very beautifully avoided the negatives of the market and the industry. How beautiful. Because I've also had a glimpse of the market. I've learned key jobs to make money. Who don't want to make money? Who don't want to be popular? Everybody takes time to understand the depth of what someone has said. The principal one sustained experience, noted, validated. Go ahead. Media was really required. It's a big country. 11 scripts are reviews, multi-scriptural, multi-lingual. No typography, calligraphy, appreciation. Redemption kind of things. I think what RK did in me and in our generation is so those seeds of not just the fake patriotism, but the true value of the country, India and for the world. The country is more than 5,000 years old. Few parties here and there, 100 years old. It's not a country. Languages are older. Scripts are older. Not created by one person. Many, many, many. It's a unanimous activity to form a script and to put it into habits. And use it and educate your kids and grandkids. Wonderful system. Most wonderful design before the world design invented maybe. Doesn't matter. Design still can learn because it's a new design as compared to what script is at its high. It's one of the wonderful design. Unanimously decided. Unanimously decided. Not by one single dictator or anyone. In India we have so many scripts but the system is same. Diversity and unison. It's not just philosophical. In India. All this vision we literally got it from our game. In few words, I think I must have spared a lot of words. And I'm a narrator. I'm a storyteller as against our case. So I love to talk a lot. And being a teacher. I love to talk. Arki said this in few things, few sentences and few words. Anyway, today is a day that we should remember it. Moreover, we should remember the importance of the scripts. Not just Indian. And why we say dying scripts? Dying scripts with people at all. We should save them. We should save their culture. We should save their languages. We should save those people who are minimal on the planet. Wonderful yardstick than any other religion. Wonderful yardstick to look at the minimal minority. Language has a syntax of culture and history and knowledge. Nothing else. Think about it. Thanks for Shri Kumar to give me this opportunity to talk on this. I'm very happy. I'm happy to be an alumni of ADC where he was teaching. I'm happy that I'm an alumni of the Institute of Applied Art where Arki was alumni. Think about it. I'm happy. Thanks a lot for listening me and bearing me for so long. 15 minutes, 5 minutes more. Thanks a lot. Namaste. Good day. Hi everyone. I am Rajeev Prakash. For me, Arki means source of knowledge. Arki means source of light. 1987 or 88. I remember it was 88. I know Arki Joshi and calligraphy at the same time. I think it was the time of Akshar Yoga. I would not attend this grand exhibition and workshop of calligraphy as I was studying in Manaras Hindu University. I missed it. I decided to meet the personality behind this calligraphy workshop, Akshar Yoga. First time I saw Arki Joshi at the time of my interview in ADC. I did not know he is Arki. At that time, Google was not there. So I could not recognize his face. I remember his first assignment given by him. It was to write our name at a particular time in few seconds. Basically, it was typography and time management class. I remember not a single student could write his or her name in that particular time because we were trying to show our typography skill. We were not caring about the time. Arki came, he snatched our sheets. He snatched our sheets and said time is over. He was very particular about the time. When I said time, he was particular about the type also. He changed my thinking about the calligraphy. Even I should say, before meeting with Arki, I did not know much about calligraphy. Since 3rd standard to 8th standard, daily I was writing one page of Sulek in Hindi as well as in English. But I did not know this is called calligraphy. I was expert of lettering, not calligraphy. RK is my calligraphy group. Whatever calligraphy I do, it is because of RK. I remember one of his calligraphy workshop in VT station. It was night time. The whole IDC students and other faculties were gathered and seeing and as well as the passengers of local train, all were seeing his sand doing calligraphy, religiously on big sheet of paper. RK was very innovative. His ideas were very innovative and that workshop was very special for us. RK, our group of Indian language calligraphy and he had tremendous knowledge of Indian letter forms. In RK's words, curves, shrorika, joineries, etc., etc., etc. And above all, the grave value of the page. Very important. Sir, sir, how can I forget your words? They always echo in my mind. Dev Nagarit I face was developed in IDC under your guidance. Sir, it was not possible without you and your guidance. It was not possible. I say that. There are many, many, many things about RK, sir. But the time is very limited and I would like to repeat as Saint Kabir said, sadh dharti kagaaj karoom lokhani sab vanraayi sadh samudra ki masikaroom gurguni likha na jaayi. Masimha means ink, lekhani means pen. And dharti kagaaj you can say. Saint Kabir also said, gurukumar sishe kumbha hai. Guru is pot, potter. Guru is potter.  Before meeting R.K., over meeting R.K. sir, I was just a rock lay. And he made me kumbh, made me pot, earthen pot. And one more thing I would like to say, R.K. was very strict Guru, very strict Guru. He used to scold as well as, I feel very proud. I say it, I feel very proud that R.K. sometime scolded me and punished me. I am very lucky. I was punished by, I was scolded by R.K. And I think very few of us, only few of us, few of us can say this. I can't forget his smile, his expressive eyes, R.K.'s blessings are with us. I pay my tribute to my Guru, he made me fontwala. R.K. made me fontwala. Thank you very much. Namaste. Thank you Dr. Shrikuna. Thank you for this opportunity to talk about my teacher, my Guru, Prof. R.K. Sush. Prof. Sush has ignited the flame in many hearts. He has created unusual awareness about typography among quite a few students. I am one of those fortunate ones who also have got interested and later started working actively on typography. Under his guidance, I completed quite a few projects, but I still remember my very first introduction to him. I was in my final year. And there was this exhibition by Mr. Kaminshevi, which was organized in Kolhambra District, Roads of our College. R.K. was invited and someone introduced me to Prof. Sush. I still remember that evening and his smile. I secretly wished him in my heart that it would be really, I would be very fortunate to be working under him. Maybe after about, say, a year, I got the opportunity. After finishing my final year, I was working for Chairman Lankz. Again, thanks to Prof. Sush, he introduced me to Chairman Lankz. And I started working with Chairman Lankz and I worked there for about 17 years. In Chairman Lankz, I got his guidance. I remained in touch with him. And he was always there at every step. We became little closer when I started working under him on hall design projects with insisting. Whenever he used to leave for his home, I always used to make for a ride, rather lift from him to reach Sion Station. From there, I used to take a train to back home. From Juhu to Sion, Sion Bridge, the moments that I spent with him were really invaluable. In those about half an hour or 40 minutes ride, he used to tell me ten number of things. And he taught me quite a few things which otherwise I wouldn't have learned in the last row. R.K. was never my formal teacher. R.K. was always an formal teacher for me. In that over 40 minutes, he told me about development of Indian typography. In commercial sense, that is how boundaries work. How boundaries contributed, various boundaries contributed towards the world of typography. He also told me how not to be judgmental, how to find beauty in everything. How to sort of approach a problem with very clear mindset. Those were the things which I learned from him. I also learned from him that how you can be without any prejudice towards letter forms, towards typography, towards anybody's work. So these are the things which I learned from him. But that way the list is endless. R.K. was a teacher. I normally tell everyone that I was not always that fortunate to be tutor under him. But at the same time, the kind of moments that I shared with him, which were not from a classroom. But they were in his personal touch and those were invaluable, as I have already said. R.K. and his contribution towards typography, R.K. What he did in his teaching career or what he did in his advertising agency. Everything is well documented, well curated by many people. There are generations of students under him who have got inspired, who have got nurtured, who have got nourished at IDC. But why IDC? At various other places too. R.K. as many people would like to say that he was a multi-faceted personality. Yes, he was a multi-faceted personality. Myself with Vikram Gayakvar and Santosh Irsagar, we organized his exhibition, a work of his exhibition at Jiri Institute of Aglera. And we decided to show every aspect, every facet of his personality. And believe me, there were about 16 aspects that we covered in that exhibition. The exhibition was suddenly called as Akshar Mark, that is the role which is eternal, which will never die. So that Akshar Mark was one of the exhibitions that R.K. remains in like. Gordy himself had designed many exhibitions, many expositions. And some of them were definitely at the national level, like Akara Delhi. I was fortunate enough to associate him on many of his projects. And as I said, the most important project for my heart was from design project under him at MCSB. Even in MCSB, he also conducted quite a few exhibitions, quite a few expositions of our work which was happening at MCSB. R.K. also encouraged many young students to take up typography, as not just as hobby, but also as a profession. And some of them are doing really well these days. I always remember him, if I don't know when R.K. Kumar told me that he is organizing this work, in the remembrance of R.K. I may sound a little pompous, but I would say that I have never forgotten him. In fact, since I have not forgotten him, there is no point saying that I remember R.K. today. I remember him every day. At every stage, all that he has taught me, I keep on certainly repeating in my mind. R.K. was someone in my life, someone in my upbringing as a designer. It's something that I cannot ignore him, I cannot overlook him, I cannot bypass him, I cannot avoid him. I cannot afford to mention him. I mean, it is something that you live in and live out. It is like your day-to-day life. It is something that you cannot miss. For me, R.K. is that. R.K. and his literary works, I was witness to many things. I was also a witness, also his happenings which took place in IDC. I have attended so many things that I have seen his passion. The way he passionately used to approach all these things, I have seen that. Whenever R.K. used to meet, R.K. invariably used to ask me, So, what is happening? What are you doing these days? Not whatever I did was related to typography. But whatever little I did, he was always curious. He was always into his idea. And after listening to whatever I have been doing, he invariably used to give me some pointers. It is a very important, invaluable surveyions that always help me to take whatever little I did to the next level. So, I remember him yesterday. I will always remember him in future. Thank you. Namaste. It is a very important day for the entire calligraphy community today. To remember our Guru and one of the legendary calligraphers and designers India has ever produced, Professor R.K. Joshi. Many of us are in this profession because of a great Guru like him. And today, 22nd February, being his birthday is a very auspicious moment for all of us to remember our Guru, Professor R.K. Joshi and share some of his vision, his work and thoughts among all of us. I will start with introducing him in terms of his biographical sketch and then share some of his important works and then share my memories as a student. So, he was born in 1936 in Olappur, Maharashtra. In 1952, he joined Sir J.J. Institute of Applied Art in Mumbai. And in 1956 to 1960, he worked as an artist but then DJ came and later became OBM. From 1961 to 1983, he was art director at Ulka Artutaisi. He has created a world record of CAG Awards received by one designer over a period of so many years. In 1983 to 1996, he was a professor at the Industrial Design Center, IAC, IIT, Bombay. In 1997 to 2008, he was a time design specialist at CDAT, Mumbai. Formerly, it was called NCST, National Center for Software Technology. I will share some of his work with him. All the logos and symbols shared in this talk are owned by the respective organizations. This compilation is done for strictly academic purpose. To share some of his work with the younger generation, many of the design students of the younger generation are not aware of Prof. R. R. K. Joshi's work. This was an identity design for International Shibori Symposium in NID Ahmedabad. This is the symbol he designed for Steel Authority of India. This is the symbol for Welcome Group of Outlet Design by Prof. R. R. K. Joshi when he was in Ulka Artutaisi. This is for Indira Gandhi National Center for Arts in New Delhi. This is the famous symbol he designed for Punjab National Bank. And this is the identity design for Chimanlalas. That time it was one of the important landmarks in Mumbai, Chimanlalas. This is the identity design for Indian Post. This is for CH Tires. This is the magazine mastered for Namaskar. It was an in-flight magazine of Air India that time. Air India had a separate in-flight magazine and Indian Airlines had a separate magazine. This is the main logo for Akshari Yog. It was a seminar organized in IDC in the International Conference and IDC. These are some of his calligraphic work. This is based on the Siddham script. This is a cover. These are some of the covers he designed for Satyagatha. Satyagatha was a very famous Parathi publication of that time. This is a concrete poetry in letterpress type used for cover of Satyagatha. This is again a poetry calligraphic experiment done by Arke Joshi in 81 in a cover for Satyagatha magazine. This is an interesting poetry done by Arke and he has used punctuation marks very creatively for expressing certain feelings and part of storytelling and narration. This is again part of the experiment's calligraphic expressions he did during the Akshari Yoga conference and calligraphy workshop. This is also part of the calligraphy workshop for during Akshari Yoga. So when we say Om, there are three different vibrations one after another and there is a feeling, the relationship between that and the calligraphic expressions. So he is trying to portray that feeling of those vibrations of Om through his calligraphy. It is very interesting when we look at the actual art, you can feel that when you chant Om how we emphasize the first when your lungs are full and slowly, slowly your sound fades out. That feeling and by the time you reach Om and towards the end of it it becomes a very feeble voice. That modulation, that audio experience he is trying to convey through his calligraphy. So if you look carefully from the center the force and the size of the letters start reducing when you go towards the end of the circle. This is a decorative Jain style of calligraphy. It is a Devanagari script but he is trying to studied a lot of Jain calligraphy. This is Siddha Nagari. It is an improvised version of Siddham script where he has written Satyam Shivam Sundaram. This is also Devanagari letters written in Jain manuscript style. Here it is a stylized logo say Sri. It is a kind of a fusion between Siddham script and Devanagari script. This is text from the book on calligraphy Dasabodha by Saint Ramadasa. So here he is trying to create a different feeling of different groups of text and he is trying to emphasize through the distinction through draw penitions and the kind of eye movement between them is played around here. These are couplets from Meghdu. They pick poem by Kali Dasa. It is also written, it is done using a kind of a peculiar Siddha Nagari script designed in northeast and north. This is Aham Brahmasmi written in Siddhanagari script. I met him in 1990 when I joined here. These are pictures taken during a design workshop he conducted in 2006 in IDC for most of the design students. So he explored with so many different tools of interesting experiments with calligraphy tools. So this one he folded two-three sheets of paper and then cut it into an angular made it into an angular name and he is doing a lot of experiments with this different tools. Once he mentioned that when he started doing calligraphy he realized that all the calligraphy tools in the market meant for the Roman script. So he decided to create his own set of tools. So these are all from photographs from the workshop he did in IDC. And he has a guide and a mentor and a philosopher and a guru to so many generations of students in IDC. He has inspired guided and illuminated the path of so many batches of students. So to a few lessons the most important lessons I learned from him I want to share today with all of you oneness that a poem he wrote he said that you write one letter wait for thousand years then another letter then there is death. So there are a lot of philosophically interpretation lessons in what he wrote through his poems. One of the very important lectures he gave in Icograd 2007 a very interesting experience he took of the audience through towards the end of the lecture he showed a signature and the signature slowly blurred into a white full white background then he showed the text came on the screen said I left this place as if I was never here before. So he mentioned that he at that moment he followed philosophy where he didn't want to leave any of his work here and earlier when we were students he was very big supporter of documentation of his work everybody's work but towards the end of his life he said I don't want to leave anything I have done here I want to leave as if I never exist. So these are two very very important things which we have always keep in our memory when we think about R.K. Lush I would like to thank the desserts team of IDCIT Bombay for giving all the photographs from the website I would like to thank Nina Mistri and Arun Kalwankar who shared some of really good black and red photographs and I would like to thank the staff, students and faculty of IDCIT Bombay for helping me organize the materials for this lecture and also to the organizing team of typography society of India so I would like to stop here and pray for R.K. Lush and remembering the famous lesson Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo, Mahesh Guru Sakshal Parabrahman Tasma Esri, Guru Veda in memory of Prof. R.K. Joshi please Hello everyone my name is D. Uday Kumar I teach at a department of design Indian Institute of Technology Kohati I heard a lot about Prof. R.K. Joshi I remember the first time I had met him was during my Masters in Design Program at IDCIT Bombay Prof. K. T. Trivayadi had invited him to deliver a lecture on Indian scripts as a part of Indian Thoughts and Tradition course so the lecture was in the auditorium I still remember that day there was a power failure and so there was not much of a light so the doors were open so only natural light was through the doors and he went on to continue to do the talk and I was so impressed and motivated by the talk and also learned that he had so much of knowledge on the Indian scripts and the letter forms and that the way he kind of pronounced each of these letters and also he kind of gave a little demonstrations of how to draw those letters and he was fully involved and he was full of enthusiasm and energy that really inspired me and I still kind of remember that and it was a great learning experience for all of us then I also had an opportunity to meet him on two other occasions so again it was during my MDS at IDC so I did a project on letterpress printing under the guidance of Prof. K. T. Trivayadi so as a part of the video I wanted to interview because I know that he had a first time in experience on letterpress printing I took his appointment and at that time he was working at NCSD so I visited him a couple of times initially I was so nervous and I did not know how to interact with him but I was a no voice designer I had no idea about typography or calligraphy I was new to this and I had the curiosity to learn more and probably that also stemmed from the courses that I had taken and also from the teachers whom I was inspired like Prof. K. T. Trivayadi and Prof. G. V. Sridmar and Prof. Ravi Puaia so who got me into understanding the Indian scripts and Indian typography so I went to NCSD couple of times in the evening to meet with him who was kind enough to spare his time, advice me help me into the entire process and he also advised me that let us have a video in the IDC library so he visited on his own to the IDC library and we shot about 30 minutes raw footage I still remember those experience so we had two cameras one was in the front and the other was in the from the sides so as many of you might know that whenever he spoke he was very expressive and his hands were always in the air dancing and animating with full of excitement and energy and I wanted to capture that expression and I wanted to capture his hands so he was fully involved in the entire interview so that was a great experience and I still used that video and showcased them to all my students every year and that way I continued to kind of learn each and every time that I showed that to my students and I remember him showing many of his works his poems, he was also a great poet and he has used letterpress printing to print these poems and how he printed those poems and how he made it like a visual poetry like a concrete poetry so that was a great learning experience for me the third time was I had a close interaction with him, was doing my PhD days Professor Ravi Puaia had invited him for a week long workshop on calligraphy for the master students so I was put as the students coordinator so I was responsible to document the entire workshop so I shot the entire video and that was another long interaction I should say with him and I was there with him throughout to help him and assist him with the materials and also various things that he needed and required during the workshop so I also got to learn about calligraphy and again, whenever he demonstrated he used to kind of say the word and the letters and it just did not come out from his mouth it just came from the entire body he was just free there and all the energy was just put into that moment when he kind of drew those letters and the letters just popped out it all become very alive and alive I should say so that again was another great experience that I had with him and I think I was one of the fortunate persons to kind of be closely associated with these three occasions and I wish I was also taught under him but still whatever little time that I had to interact with him was a good enough for me to kind of really understand typography and that also in a way helped me to perceive a PhD in Indian typography so I did my PhD under professor Jeevi Shreemar on Tamil typography probably all of these things kind of helped me to kind of move forward and also inspired me to do more and research more in Indian context and Indian scripts so thanks to all my teachers professor K.T. Trivedi professor Jeevi Shreemar professor Ravi Pohya and also R.K. Joshi it was a very small interaction helped me grow in this field and also thank you Tempographic Society of India for having me share this experience of R.K. Joshi with you all so the way he concluded my video I would also like to conclude this small footage that's about it thank you


What's good, YouTube? This is your boy T-World, back with y'all again with another art video. If you're new to this channel, go ahead and hit that like button and come in, subscribe, make sure you click post notifications so you will be notified of your tiny boy Drossin' Heat. In today's video, we finna make some creative artwork for a legend, man. A great driver by the name of Ken Block just passed away recently.  Every time I get some free time on my hands, I get on 5M, get on one of them on Grand Theft Auto servers and look for the drift service. And my brother-in-law a year ago put me onto this driver, Ken Block, and the things he do in a real car I can't even do on a video game, man. I would just like to say my deepest condolences go out to your family and your friends. And I just wanna create some amazing artwork, man. That's gonna live forever, just like your name and your legacy, man. So without further ado, let's jump right into this video.


I mean, a grammar of Tangut. The topic of today is the topics of Tangut. So, last, but so, everyone knows Tangut so much. This is a general information for the Shisha dynasty located here in the northwest area of China. And this is many cities of the Shisha dynasty. And from here I will start. The Tangut language. So, as you know, it belongs to the Tibetan language group. And it was written in Tangu script. And the Tangut language has unique features, not found in both old Tibetan and old Burmese. And this is general information on typology. Tangut belongs to so-called subject, object, verb, language. And actually also, the Tangut has so complicated verb threads in some cases. For example, prefix including negative, perfect, and something. And after then verb stem and auxiliary verb, pronominal suffix, especially pronominal suffix and particle. So, for the presentation today, I explained just prefix and suffix in Tangut language. So, this is the main verb, ending verb stem and auxiliary verb. That consists of the verb threads and the prefix and pronominal suffix. In some cases, there are some particles. And as you know, the prefix divided into two series. The prefix what we say, the first series of the prefix is that indicates the direction of the action or motion, the perfective aspect. And prefix series 2, we say prefix 2. The second series, it represents the obstative mode, mean. Finally, this pronominal suffix, the first and second person and ruler, it's a general opinion. Okay, from here I explained the set of the verb phrases. As you know, Tangut has so several kinds of prefix series and the prefix works series 1 and 2. Generally to say, they have the same initials and they have some kind of correspondence between prefix 1 and 2, politically. So, please remember this prefix 1. I say from my deconstruction, it's a key. So, this is the real from the real samples. It means the case marker and this is the prefix 1 and this is the main verb. From here, I say the vowels are underlined and the element in question. So, I emphasize it by red card. So, actually it's not so easy to decide the direction of the motion. But here, probably I suggest this meaning to the speaker, so he went into the castle. And second, of course, you know well, but this is one of the table of the set of independent forms and suffixes of Tangut pronominers. So, this independent form, the sound and characters say suffix. And so, it's divided into past and second and sad. And plural, it's not individual form for pronomia. But, I mean, so, after the noun, this kind of the moving. This means plural and probably it's corresponded to the suffix after the verb. And here, so, the right professor, Nishida Tatsuo, he in his proposal, the agent dual. So, some suffix indicating. So, now, from here, we test, but just we show this kind of verb agreement. It's popular to grammatical phenomena in native language. For example, first character is the top of the sentence. And the last character is same and same sound. And that means it gets out of the way. And in this sentence, so, this kind of the agreement, so, independent form, between independent form and suffix form. So, we return to this Tangut moving query. Actually, it has various functions. First, so, I say it belongs to prefix series 1. I mean direction of action or property. And in some case, in particular compounds, it shows some case markers. But suffix are making a dual of the agent. So, now, we will, so, test it. Actually, so, this moping in the previous dictionaries, I think not quite enough for explanation of this moping. For example, in Professor Kuchanov, so, this rubber and grammatical guard, it's all. And also, in Professor Newfoundland, it's probably same, not enough for the explanation. And from here, we use, for my previous reconstruction, this Zeraj, the initial I, means, so, neutral, high guard. So, it is same as Professor Gon's key and Professor Nishida's key. Here are samples from given by Professor Nishida Tatsuo. So, actually, first, I disagreed with his idea while I explained. So, I analyzed the sample series 1, so mainly this A and B. Now, this is the correspondent by what? So, please see this sentence A, which element, the element in question is here. Actually, after that, after that, but is it suffix? We cannot decide it because here, the final, the final character means it's also verb. And sentence number B is also after verb, okay. But why Professor Nishida decided to suffix? It's possible as a prefix of the final verb, I think. So, in these cases, so, I cannot read with him. So, because we cannot decide it, prefix or suffix, at least in these short samples, we cannot experiment. Next. Oh, yeah, probably, so, in C and E, this is the correspondence of what do I want to mean? Yeah, after this underlined Professor Nishida and the sequence, it's as a verb phrase of this sentence. After that, yeah, we can observe this element. But actually, in sentence number C and E, so, this is my following for the meaning. So, Professor Nishida's sample has no agent inside this sentence. No, I mean, no subject so appears here. Only D, we can see, we can observe. Probably agent or object, yeah, I explained it. This is the sentence. So, father, mother, and so, first person, singular and plural and case marker. Okay, this is the verb phrase. The meaning of this sentence, our father and mother should permit us to leave our household, right? So, this root point means subject. And this green point, object. Which pair is dual, so we can decide it. Father and mother appear. And this one, so, but probably in the sentence, it means the object, a sentence. So, in my previous expression, the samples given by Professor Nishida, I think so weak, a little. But in my previous work, so, I can observe such kind of phenomena. Please see the sentence number three. So, in this case, we can observe. After that, after that, after that, so, we can observe this element. But this sample, this means, this means a voluptuous super. So, that was how to say, block-created style. And in my previous work, I thought it's a mistake of the arrangement of the blocks. So, and after then, I tried to find any more proper samples for denying Professor Nishida. But, unfortunately, unfortunately, I found the proper example. So, I must have to apologize to Professor Nishida-sensei. So, in this sentence, clearly you can find two persons inside this simple sentence. So, in this sentence, first, two characters mean so weak. So, first singular and plural as next, the two persons apparently. And after that, we can find this element. After that, so, I analyzed my previous samples. All cases, the subjects, this kind of, of course, I can find it in the contents, in the text. So, that we, that we, that means two of us. I think in my previous samples, such as this one, the next one is same. So, this sentence, the sentence without a subject in this short samples. But actually, the real subject of this sentence, this is the two of us. So, of course, basically I think that the elements, the key, shows some kind of dual marker, as a dual marker. But, we can find so many exceptions actually. For example, please see this number seven. Number seven, apparently, inside this sentence, an under and roughly, so, two persons. But, without any kind of suffix, why? And please see number eight.  This is the subject of this sentence. Two, but without any kind of suffix. So, why? I think in case such as short or simple sentences, we cannot observe such elements. Here, we return to the original text. For example, look. It's so long sentence, so long sentence. And here, this is, so, this means we, and the member, and suffix. So, I, this is the real sentence from my, from this work. So, now I show you the first sentence. The first part means, at the time, the boy and God say to Suttara. This means boy and God, two persons. And from here, from here, to the end of these lines, actually, actually, they are just inside the conversation. So, we return to our samples from here to here. So, we can observe such sentences, including suffix, quill. Inside, only conversation. And so, please see, this is my sample number four. So, this, this, so, we, two persons, but who, who is two persons here? The boy and girls located so far from here. This is my short conclusion. The suffix, this quill, appears in not short and simple sentence, but long and complicated sentences, in which it is not easy to know the subject and I cannot restrict subject because in Professor Nishida's sample, so, sample D. So, I think these two, the subject and the quill, but in case, so, we cannot decide only subject because subject, two persons, we finish. So, I think the suffix, quill, is, I think, not obligated, just a reminder for the leader. And is it possible from the viewpoint of Tibetan language? Some languages in Tibetan read the special expression of this kind of dual personings. Type A is by verb suffix, as Tangut. And type B is noun suffix or special form of pronominal, so pronominal. So, this is from Professor Nana or Yasuhiko from Japan. This is Jaron language and so please see the first singular and dual and dual. So, actually Jaron language, so, shows us some kind of the feature of dual. So, this prefix and suffix, especially, please mark this qi, African qi. And so, this is a real sentence, qi-gyo-kama-chi-ko. Is it right? So, the meaning of this sentence, we, two of us, will arrive. So, I think this qi is phonetically, not so far from Tangut qi, because before the e, the bira, bira-ku, so, it's possible to change, to use the affliction qi, in front of the central vowel. Next one is, I think it's not good samples, but some language, as a category, dual, the pronominal forms, including, like, qi-mofin. So, please see, this is the pronominal, and the real term, nanik. So, all the forms of dual, of pronominal, actually, language, as described in the qi, as dual barker. This is the conclusion of the meaning. Actually, this qi, max bira, the agent, and the suffix, not so simple, but long, get sentences, and its functions, as I think, just a reminder. Of course, I don't know the whole language of Tibet Barman, but, actually, I think, such kind of type of the expression for dual barkers, so, I think, close to general meaning of languages. But, actually, so, we have so more future tasks. Actually, the material mind is restricted in Buddhist texts, so, we can find the, not Buddhist texts, or future tasks.  So, but they are not so too puzzle, and vikni. So, in closing, so, the prosperous Buddhist minds and minds, it means not dual, pluralist. So, anyway, from the context, we can find the dual subjects or not. And, the next task is, is it possible from the view of the Tibet Barman language? Yeah. So, because I'm so poor at the modern languages, and please give me some examples.


And welcome to another episode of In the Studio. I'm Alex Silva-Satter, your host today. And I'm here with Chi Smith. And Chi is a refugee from Vietnam. She's been here since her 13th. 1975. 1975. She fled right literally on a helicopter at one point, right? From Vietnam. Perhaps you're familiar with those images from the documentaries and stuff. And she's here to tell us a little bit today about what it was like growing up in Vietnam and how things sort of deteriorated. So welcome to the show, Chi. Thank you for coming in and speaking with us. So you left at the age of 13. Correct. In 75. Could you tell us what it was like growing up in Vietnam? So I had a very sheltered and protective childhood. My father was always an officer in the army. And he got promoted in the ranks. And when we left in 75, he was a colonel. But I've always had a very uneventful, except for one life attempt on our family. But other than that, it's a very sheltered and privileged upbringing because having a father who's a colonel and a commanding officer, we had all the protection that we needed. And so kids at school always approached me with certain. They sort of drew up a buffer. Yeah, and it's a double-edged sword because they would think, well, you're doing well because the teachers would give you preferences because your father was a colonel. So we have the privileges. But then on the other hand, people would readily assuming that discrediting my achievement. Your own personal achievement. Right. But we've always had a very upbringing that's very good, even though war was going on around us. And the war escalated to the height of 1968, as you all know, being called the TET offensive. And that was the height. And ever since then, we suffer a lot of shelling at night, not during the day, but at night. So our bedroom was a sheltered bedroom, a bomb shelter. And you wouldn't know it by looking at it, but it would have sandbags on the wall and then steel plates on each side. And the ceiling was the same way. And so that was where we slept. And before that, we had to run at night when we hear the siren and the shelling. We would run from our bedroom, which was in the shelter then, to my mom's bedroom, which was a shelter. So imagine just waking up in the middle of the night, disoriented, and you hear the shelling. So when we were in our own shelter bedroom and hear the shelling, which happened very frequently after 1968, we lived in Dunang. Then I slept on the top bunk. I would jump out and go underneath the bottom one. And my brother and I, we just hurled together. And I know that there are times I would be crying, and he would try to comfort me. So it's very, you know, we normalize war because we grew up during wartime. That was all we knew. So then we wake up in the morning, woke up in the morning, and life was as usual. Get dressed, went to school, and life is usual.  And my father, when he came home, he never had a schedule, regular visit home. It was always unannounced because he didn't want to be sniped at. There was no regular of anything back then. And one of the things I wished was to have a father, stay at home father. I saw other civilian friends who had their dads staying at home when I never had that. But so going from that. So the war escalated in March 28, 1975. My mom, she's various students. She listened to what's going on around her. And of course, with my dad's advice, she packed up all of our things. And things that, oh, don't use that because we're saving in for good occasions or whatever. So all those things were packed up, ready to go. March 28, we're supposed to go to the Hela pad and having our family from there to the shipyard, where we're going to board the ship to go to a hometown near Trang. Just we're basically. Further south in Vietnam. Yeah, so we're traveling down the coast, basically. But that was actually too late because all the refugees are moving south from Hue and northern cities and provinces. So they jammed the street. And so it took forever for us to go from our home to the Hela pad. And that was the first time I saw chaos.  My older siblings did, and they would cover our eyes. They didn't want us to see it because there's a lot of refugee coming south. It was chaos. It was kids playing in the traffic light booths. And so there was no law and order by then. So we finally got to the Hela pad that was supposed to be reserved for the Colonel's family, where there were people on there already. So our people had to kind of get them off, and then we climb on there. And that was the first time I witnessed anything remotely war-like because it's just, until that point, I lived a pretty safe, protective life. So the helicopter took us to the shipyard. But by then, there was thousands of people there. And I don't know how they even beat us there, but they were there. And from there, we could just feel our lives changing drastically because we didn't have enough food or water. We waited from the morning to night. And then the ship was supposed to come in that night. So we didn't have a shelter. So we were just sitting outside of the buildings.  So we went in there. And then that late at night, the shelling started to, we could hear it, the whistling coming in. And you could hear the impact of it hitting. And again, another soldier came in, and a guardian angel got us to leave and say to my dad, the ship is here. It's time for you to move. And so imagine all nine of us. So you had nine people in your family? So my parents and the seven kids, and we were just moving along other people. We stepped on other people. Other people stepped on us. We got hit. And my little sister, Han Cheol, my dad had a little hard shell Samsonite case. And he was running with her. So every time they ran together, it would hit her. And she would cry because it hurt. And then, of course, I lost my shoe. I lost one shoe. So I kicked the other one off because I can't run with one. It was kind of a clog and bad shoes and wear. But anyhow. So that was the first time I felt like I'm starting to lose my dignity, my, you know. You can just feel that everything has changed. Yeah, everything is just slowly falling away from me. We had a very prestigious life and high status. And then we could just, every time I felt like every time I ran, every step was like shedding our identity, shedding everything that we knew that define us. But luckily, we got on, it's a tug and barge, I believe. It wasn't a ship. We thought it was going to be a ship, but it wasn't. So we finally got on there. All of, I mean, imagine having nine of us. And the littlest one was five. And she didn't want to get through the cables.  But anyway, so I mean, there's a chasm between the boat and the deck, right? So if we fell, it's a long way. There's no return if you fell on that. And it's dark. It was supposed to be full moon, but we couldn't see anything around us. My dad would call our name, and that's how he got all of us. Instead of visual, it was just calling our names. Anyhow, we got on there. And that was the beginning of our journey. Just to make the journey short, because you can read the book later and get the details. But from there, we go from, so the tug and barge to the naval ship the next day, they would get us.  And from there, we would go and have some rest, working your way south. So exactly, just follow the coastline. So Vietnam is an S-shape, and it's like the size of California in totality, north and south. And so that kind of gives you an idea. Sense of the scale. So you're working your way all the way down. Yeah, just think of it as an S. A fishing boat by truck, by however you can get. So at one point, it was four days on a fishing boat. And there was no space to sleep. We just slept on fishing nets and whatever. And so from there, with various other transportations and trips, we finally were able to leave Vietnam. April 25th, that was five days before the fall of Saigon. And then making our way to America. So we went from a very protective fish users life to starting at the bottom, social economic bottom rung. And but we were very grateful and we were very happy. And we knew that because we have our dignity and our freedom and our health and our whole family, except for the two brothers who were stuck behind, that we would take any job just to advance ourselves. And education was our ticket out of poverty. And that experience, knowing that things were, that you had lost that much and that other people had it worse, did that help you? Absolutely. As in America, obviously, you had difficulties growing up here, the prejudice and things. So what kind of strength were you able to draw from that experience that helped you get through the difficulties here? That's a great question.  So during the war, there were a lot of refugees within our country. The whole war. So they lost their homes. They would come and they would go to my mom. And my mom would give them food, shelter for the night or whatever and send them on their way. And so for us to have this reversal of fortune was obviously a difficult situation for anybody. Of course, I was 13. So that was tough, but that was nothing. We had that sense of independence and so much pride because of where we came from, being the Colonel's family. We had so much pride that we weren't going to take handouts. We were going to climb back up somehow. And we were for just immediate gratification. We believe in delayed gratification. And I think that was the strength that was instill or the lessons that was instill in us. It's that there's nothing instant. You have to work hard and prove yourself so that you would get to the place of helping others. And when you make it, remember to help others behind you. So that was always the lessons that my parents gave because they're philanthropic people. So that was the way we were raised. And so having that difficulty, we knew it was only a transient state of being. We know we're Buddhist, so we know that it's always the only constant exchange. So knowing that really helps us. So even though when we're in a hard, difficult place without a cultural identity or a social economic, all of that was stripped away. But we knew that if we would just hang in there and be patient, the constant change that state of mind helps us to navigate forward. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And so do you think that, obviously, you eventually worked for the state of an emergency services for refugees, in a sense? So that's a great question. So I served with the governor's office of emergency services. And I was a GIS chief. So what my team? That's geographical information services for anyone. So that's online mapping for response. So when there's any incident, manmade or natural, so I was there for the Napa Earthquake and for the big fires a couple of years ago. So our job is to make sure that we have online real time information so that other agencies can work with us in the FEMA counties. Coordinate the responses. Exactly. And so that has always been, ever since I've been helped in Guam with the Red Cross and the Marines, how they fed us and they received us with kindness. And I remember eating the first McDonald hamburger. That was the greatest. And I thought when you're hungry and tired and cold and they give us blankets and pillows and treat us with kindness and we, our dignity was intact, then in there I promised myself that I will not forget and I would do my part to help others in need. So fast forward, I worked at the emergency services office, I helped the disaster refugees. So those, albeit they're not war refugees, but if they're being taken away from their home and all of a sudden the comfort of home is gone and all they have is what they have on their back, right? So in that moment in time, they need others to take, you need not take care of them, but give them the provisions and the clothes and the basics and the necessities. So in that moment in time, I was able to help the agency, coordinating with them to help the people in need. And it made me feel really good that I'm actually, you know, playing my part. Contributing back. Yeah. And so you've also, and then you've written a book about these experiences called Tiger Fish. So if anyone is interested in learning more about her experiences or the book, you can go to chi-bing-chi-dot-dot-com. Correct. That's C-H-I-bing-chi. Thank you for coming and sharing your experience with us. And it's incredible. Thank you, Alex. All the different things you've been through. And thank you. Thank you, Alex. It's my pleasure. And that wraps up another episode of In the Studio. Join us next time when we'll talk about other something.