From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DevOps Virtual Forum, brought to you by Broadcom. Continuing our conversations here at Broadcom's DevOps Virtual Forum, Lisa Martin here, please welcome back to the program, Serge Luccio, the general manager of the Enterprise Software Division at Broadcom. Hey, Serge, welcome. Thank you, good to be here. So I know you were just participating with the BizOps manifesto that just happened recently. I just had the chance to talk with Jeffrey Hammond and he unlocked this really interesting concept that I wanted to get your thoughts on. Spiritual co-location as really a necessity for BizOps to succeed in this unusual time in which we're living. What are your thoughts on spiritual co-location in terms of cultural change versus adoption of technologies? Yeah, it's quite interesting, right? When we think about the major impediments for DevOps implementation that we talk about culture, right? And for the last 20 years, we've been talking about silos. We've been talking about the imperatives for these teams to put it with the line. In many ways, it's also much about these teams aligning, but about being in the same car in the same boat, right? It's really about using those teams around kind of the common purpose, the common objective. So to me, this is really about kind of changing this culture where people start to look at kind of OKRs as kind of the key objective that drives kind of the entire team. Now, what it means in practice is really that we need to change a lot of behaviors, right? It's not about your key, it's not about roles, it's about who can do what and when and driving advice towards action. It also means that we need, I mean, especially in these COVID times, it becomes very difficult, right? To drive kind of the kind of collaboration and affinity between these teams. And so I think there's a significant role that especially pools can play in terms of providing kind of discounted feedback for the teams to be in-depth but at a spiritual co-location. Well, and it talked about culture being, it's something that, you know, we're so used to talking about DevOps with respect to velocity, all about speed here. But of course, this time, everything changed so quickly but going from the physical spaces to everybody being remote really does take, it's very different, you can't replicate it digitally but there are collaboration tools that can kind of really be essential to help that cultural shift, right? Yeah, so to me, we tend to talk about collaboration in kind of a very mundane way, right? Of course, we can use Zoom, we can all get into the same room. But the point when, I think, when Jeff says spiritual co-location, it's really about do we all share the same objective? Do we, do we have a means for instance, our pipeline, right? When you talk about DevOps probably, we all start to think about kind of this continuous delivery pipeline that basically drives the automation and the orchestration across the team. But just think about the pipeline, right? At the end of the day, it's all about what is the meantime to feedback to these teams? If I'm a developer and I commit code, how long does it take for that code to be processed through the pipeline? How quickly can I get feedback? If I am a finance person, responding a product or a project, what is my meantime to feedback? And so a lot of kind of a, when we think about the pipeline, I think what's been really inspiring to me in the last year or so is that there's much more of an adoption of kind of door-to-back metrics. There is way more of a focus around downstream management. And to me, this is really when we talk about collaboration, it's really about how do you provide the feedback to the different stakeholders across the life cycle in a very timely manner. And that's really what we need to get to in terms of kind of this notion of collaboration. It's not too much about people being in the same kind of physical space. It's about, you know, when I check in code, you know, do I get the system to automatically identify what I'm going to break? If I'm about to release some application, how can the system help me reduce my change pillar rates because it's able to predict that some issue was introduced in the application or the product. So I think there's a great role of technology and AI can relate to actually provide kind of that new level of collaboration. So we'll get to AI in a second, but I'm curious what are some of the metrics? Do you think that really matter right now as organizations are still in some form, probably of transformation to this new, almost 100% remote workforce? So I'll just say first, I'm not a big fan of metrics. And the reason being that, you know, you can look at a change failure rate, right? Or a leak time or a cycle time. And those are interesting metrics, right? The trend on metrics is absolutely critical. But what's more important is, how do you get to the root cause? What is contributing to that metric to degrade or improve over time? And so I'm much more interested and we, you know, through Broadcom are way more interested in understanding what are the patterns that contribute to this? So I'll give a very mundane example. You know, we know that cycle time is heavily influenced by organizational boundaries. So, you know, we talk a lot about silos, but we've worked with many of our customers doing downstream mapping. And oftentimes what you see is that's really the boundaries of the organization that creates a lot of idle time, right? So to me, it's less about the metrics. I think the door metrics are a pretty, you know, valid set of metrics. But what's way more important is to understand what are the anti-parents? What are the things that we can detect through the data that actually are affecting those metrics? And I mean, over the last 10, 20 years, we've learned a lot about kind of what are the anti-parents within our large enterprise customers? And there are plenty of them. What are some of the things that you're seeing now with respect to patterns that have developed over the last seven to eight months? So I think the two areas which clearly are evolving very quickly are on kind of the front end of a life cycle where DevOps is more and more embracing value stream management, value stream mapping. And I think what's interesting is that in many ways the product is becoming the new silo. The notion of a product is very difficult by itself to actually define. People are starting to recognize that a value stream is not its own little kind of island. That in reality, when I define a product, this product oftentimes has dependencies on other products. And that in fact, you're looking at kind of a network of value streams, if you will. So on that end, there's clearly kind of a new set if you will have anti-patterns where products are being defined as a set of OKRs. They have interdependencies and you have a new set of silos. On the other hand, the other kind of key movement is around the SRE space where I think there is a cultural clash while the DevOps side is very much embracing this notion of OKRs and value stream mapping and value stream management. On the other hand, you have IT operations teams who still think business services, right? For them, they think about configure items, they think about infrastructure. And so, it's not uncommon to see teams where the operations team is still thinking about hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of business services. And so there is kind of this boundary where I think, well, SRE is being put in place and there's lots of thinking about what kind of metrics can be defined. I think going back to culture, I think there is a lot of cultural evolution that's still required for true operations teams. And that's a hard thing. Cultural transformation in any industry, pandemic or not, is a challenging thing. You talked about AI and automation a minute ago. How do you think those technologies can be leveraged by DevOps leaders to influence their successes and their ability to collaborate and maybe see eye-to-eye with the SREs? Yeah, so there are kind of two, so even for myself as a leader of a 1500 people organization, there's a number of things I don't see on a daily basis. And I think the technologies that we have at our disposal today from the AI are able to mine a lot of data and expose a lot of issues that as leaders we may not be aware of. And some of these are pretty kind of easy to understand. We all think we're agile. And yet when you start to understand, for instance, what is the work in progress during the sprint? When you start to analyze the data, you can detect for instance that maybe the teams are over committed that there is too much work in progress. You can start to identify kind of inter-repancies either from a technology or from a people point of view which were hidden. And you can start to understand that maybe the changeable rate is dragging. So I believe that there is a fundamental role to be played by the tools to expose again, these antiparrots, to make these things kind of visible to the teams, to be able to even compare teams, right? One of the things that's amazing is now we have access to tons of data not just from a given customer but across a large number of customers. And so we start to compare kind of all of these teams kind of operate and what's working, what's not working. Thoughts on AI and automation as a facilitator of spiritual co-location? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, it's, you know, there's a, the problem we all face is the unknown, right? The velocity, the volume, the variety of the data, every day we don't really necessarily completely appreciate what is the impact of our actions, right? And so AI can really act as a safety net that enables us to understand what is the impact of our actions. And so yeah, in many ways, the ability to be informed in a timely manner to be able to interact with people on the basis of data and then collaborate on the data in the actual matter, I think it's a very powerful enabler in that respect. I mean, I've seen countless of times that for instance at the SRE boundary to basically show that what's one of the quality attributes of an incoming release, right? And exposing that to an operations person and an SRE person and enabling that collaboration and dialogue through the data is a very, very powerful tool. Given your recommendations for how teams can use, the SRE folks, the DevOps says, can use AI and automation in the right ways to be successful rather than some ways that are going to be non-productive? Yeah, so to me, there's a part, the question really is when we talk about data, there are different ways you can use data, right? So you can do a lot of analytics, predictive analytics. So I think there is a tendency to look at, let's say a specific KPI, like an availability KPI or change filler rate and to basically do a rational analysis and project, all these things going to happen in the future. To me, that's a bad approach. The reason why I fundamentally think it's a bad approach is because our systems, the way we develop software is a non-linear kind of system, right? Software development is not linear in nature. And so I think this is probably the worst approach, is to actually focus on metrics. On the other hand, if you start to actually understand at a more granular level, what are the things which are contributing to this, right? So if you start to understand, for instance, that whenever maybe you affect a specific part of the application, that translates into production issues. So I've actually a customer who identified that over 50% of their unplanned outages were related to specific components in their architecture. And whenever these components were changed, these resulted in these unplanned outages. So if you start to be able to basically establish causality, right, cause and effect between kind of data across the lifecycle, I think this is the right way to use AI. And so fundamentally, I think it's way more about kind of a classification problem. What are the classes of problems that do exist and affect things as opposed to analytics predictive, which I don't think is as powerful? So I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation just came off the biz-ops manifesto. You're one of the authors of that. I want to get your thoughts on dev-ops and biz-ops overlapping, complimenting each other. What, from the biz-ops perspective, what does it mean to the future of dev-ops? Yeah, so it's interesting, right? So if you think about dev-ops, there's no founding documents, right? I mean, we can refer to the Phoenix project. I mean, there are a set of documents which have been written, but in many ways there's no clear definition what dev-ops is. If you go to the dev-ops institute today, you will see that they have specific trainings, for instance, on value-shoot management, on SRE. And so in many ways, the problem we have as an industry is that there are set of practices between agile, dev-ops, SRE, value-shoot management, ITAL, right? And we all basically talk about the same things, right? We all talk about, essentially, accelerating the meantime to feedback, but yet we don't have the common framework to talk about that. The other key thing is that we had to wait for Gene's last book to really start to get into the business aspect, right? And for value-shoot mapping to start to emerge for us to start as an industry, right? IT to start to think about, what is our connection with the business aspect? What's our purpose, right? And ultimately it's all about driving these business outcomes. And so to me, dev-ops is really about putting a lens on this critical element, that it's not business and IT that we in fact need to fuse business and IT, that I need bits to transform itself to recognize that it's this value generator, right? It's not a cost center. And so the relationship to me, it's more that business provides kind of this overall kind of framework, if you will, that set the context for what is the reason for IT to exist, what are the core values and principles that IT needs to embrace to again, change from cost center to a value center. And then we need to start to use this as a way to start to unify some of, again, the core practices, whether it's agile dev-ops, value-shoot mapping, SRE. So I think over time, my hope is that we start to harmonize a lot of our practices, language and cultural elements. Last question, Serge, in the last few seconds we have here, talking about the relation between dev-ops and dev-ops, what do you think as dev-ops evolves and as you talk just through some of your insights, what should our audience keep their eyes on in the next six to 12 months? So to me, the key challenge for the industry is really around, so we're seeing a very rapid shift towards kind of project to product, right? What we don't want to do is to recreate these new silos, these hard silos. So that's one of the big changes that I think we need to be really careful about because ultimately it is about culture. It's not about how we segment the work, right? And it's true culture that we can overcome silos. So back to, I guess, with Jeffrey's concept of the spiritual co-location, I think it's really about that. It's really about focusing on the business outcomes, on aligning, on driving engagement across the teams, but not to create kind of a new set of silos, which instead of being vertical are going to these horizontal products. Created by Serge that looking at culture as kind of a way of really addressing and helping to reduce, replace challenges. We thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time at today's dev-ops spiritual forum. Thank you. Thanks for your time. For Serge Lucio, Lisa Martin, we'll be right back.


What's going on everyone? Sam here with late in sports cards ripping 2022 tops triple threads baseball hobby 9 box case break number 31 random or pick your team style got a list of our names and teams Alex P. Mariners Andrew S. Dodgers Andrew L. Pirates Ben M. Astros Brandon D. Royals Brandon S. Athletics Rangers Chang S. Marlins David A. Cubs Doug R with the Guardians Orioles Ed D. Rays Evan S. Metz Jason P. Red Sox Joe L. Twins Kirk L. Giants Kubilay Oh with the Padres Lawrence K. Tigers Marvin F. Cardinals Matthew R. Reds Rockies Nationals Mike A. White Sox no Mike A. Braves Nate Z. White Sox Raymond R. Diamond Max Regina A. Yankees Angels Rob L. Phillies Russell G. Brewers and Scott V. with the Blue Jays. Good luck guys let's do it. Pipe Town Nightbot. Yeah yeah Jeff they're from the same master case yes they are yeah whenever we do like a ritual always schedule like two or four or six half casers and they'll all always come from like the same half case so this is from the same master guys let me do this down to eight to go here yes E. T. T. TT let's do it man Greg Maddox to G. 99 show a to 150 got an O'Neill Cruz rookie that's so nasty trade-turner Shane boss Dino how about this how about a one Soto 13 out of 18 is a Padre that is so sick let's go congrats San Diego that is cool Kubilay Oh there you go buddy nice one there mag that one up and wow Mike trout 42 out of 48 what a box crats on that angels Regina Baez to 150 show a to 199 couple of show haze now base base dude what a box this is how about now a Mike trout four of nine free passes going to the angels Chapman 55 out of 99 pretty much all baseball today Dino we've got some triple threads and we're finishing off with some five star Rick some bowman draft and topstone black earlier as well yeah bow would be sick be Doug nice bow Jackson he's got really nice autos in this so wit would be good love to see a nice wit come out of here as well what up SG yes sir back from the Northeast back from the Northeast back from the city Garrett Cole to 259 purple Jacob the Grom to 299 base base we've got a Jose Altuve smashing starts 30 out of 36 the Astros and then Ian Anderson that is for the Braves to 50 who halls tonight 199 and Xander to 259 that's a good start yes it is that is gonna be 38 out of 50 wander Franco that is going to Tampa eddy there we go congrats buddy what a hit cool we yeah we are on fire with some wonders today there we go add totally not the FBI right there huh that's his name on on YouTube and Ozzy Alves 3 out of 80 yeah that's a D here we go add congrats buddy an on-card wander to why not man there he is thank goodness is right there we go add congrats man hell yeah dude so awesome that's true we need a super now so you can need that wander white whale wander so I could fly down yeah white whales generally one want a case or so or a ruby or a wood this is a Devers to 199 and nice Roy Campanella to 50 on the onyx that is a Bobby Whit rookie by Cobb Nolan Ryan a Jose a brave 31 out of 36 nice one there Nick Lodolo 8 out of 99 another nice rookie auto for the Reds yeah white whales are nasty dude white whales are so cool I love how it says white whale that's chipper Jones to 125 and Roberto Clemente to 199 the name FBI would use to make you think it's not true facts Josh Lowe another one there for Ed at 78 out of 99 FBI surveillance van and Jose Barrios to 18 that is for the Blue Jays it's funny man I love triple threads dude it is so far I liked it a lot more watching than I do top-loading but I do love it yeah under that's understandable we're down to one two three four five six seven to go guys my AirPods are called FBI listening drone Hall of Famer very good yeah redemption back redemption Roy Campanella speaking up to 299 Greg Maddox to 125 very true very true base base base kind of filler from me when you get a child no I got one ever mind vintage era four out of 18 Justin Verlander for the Astros and let's see what our redemption is good luck everybody rookie car to autograph rookie autograph card emerald parallel wander franco let's go add two wonders two wonders count them in one half case there we go dude let's get after it yes both yes well should be on card Ed is killing it man there we go that'll get mad as well O'Neill Cruz to 259 and Christian yellow to 299 what is that rookie autograph emerald parallel one second I got you right now Ed that'd be my guess it's here 99 or 50 the autograph set to be the 50 rookie autograph set will be the 50 so two wonders to 50 hey let's go one of them like that really nice looking design where it's like the autograph on the bottom yeah yeah that's awesome dude back to here it's got that wander rainbow is right Bryson Stott Ozzie Smith and Ted Williams that's so awesome going to Lawrence K how about a Miguel Cabrera 8 hour 6 out of 18 dude that's awesome 3,000 hits 500 home runs 600 doubles that's maybe that's so awesome dude there you go Lawrence Joey Gallo 31 out of 48 for the inks so he's brings a little tear to my eye when I see Joey Gallo I believe we have these at 400 Tyler 400 a box on these this is a group break right here though yeah I really I don't hate Kluger for the red so I don't hate that pulled one out of black yesterday that's awesome Jeff dude I love me Maggie stop I feel like it's super undervalued he's like probably I think he is probably the best hitter of my childhood yeah it's not him it's out of pools like those two Johnny Bench the 99 pools hit for more water to 59 but McGee always hit for average yeah bulls did yeah hunter green rookie oh sorry dude I don't know that's not me I'm not in charge of that so I apologize it's Alex Pregman the 36 going to the Astros and Will Smith 62 out of 75 going to the Dodgers purple I can't think of anybody that anyone else that won the triple crown no no one has oh we got a book oh oh this is this is uh is this the yeah this is the one you want right here no it's not the Red Sox one yes it is no it's not it is Decker but what's not I saw Fisk that's the only name I saw Wow Carly Ostromsky Carlton fist Jim Rice Roger Clemens Wade Boggs David Ortiz many Ramirez Pedro Martinez Jason Bairdek Dustin Petroya Decker book baby let's go who's got the Red Sox Jason P let's go let's go half case dude that's insanity right there Blake is like speechless speechless over there that is awesome man wow wow wow wow unbelievable dude on freaking believable that's a blank book I know Jason P congrats my friend that thing is so disgusting dude you opened in you're like we have a book and then I was like oh it looks like it has a lot of flaps yeah I looked on the top and it was already the start of the book and I was like oh dang this is one of those mom unbelievably I got to send a picture of this to Rich for sure wow dude wow wow wow let's make sure we get that back and good again that is gonna be the deck of book I believe that's numbered four of five you know five of five five of five unreal dude somebody one of them's jersey numbered has to be at that point yeah holy cow dude I don't think so maybe wow dude what a booklet man on freaking real right there I don't know how we're gonna get a picture of that rich is gonna trade rocko for that thing those are the types of comments that I just can't seek out of coming in a rob puts them in the chat and then just I just start dying oh yeah yeah Anthony Riz at a 150 CJ Abrams to 199 I know honestly Jonathan thing isn't a is a cycle encyclopedia you got to put it in I know dude I'm just I'm like you I'm just speechless at this point I know they do set sell the deck of mags though you can get them I know Lane's got them there's Rafael Devers 10 out of 27 and triple threads autograph single jumbo relic amethyst parallel dance v swanson going to Braves that's Braves that's Sarah goes no trades for rocko sir Sarah's put her foot down on that one what are you doing dude amateur hour 299 Andrew McCutcheon CJ Abrams to 150 base Bobby Whit rookie got Ty Cobb nice one here is gonna be Cal Raleigh rookie Jersey Otto where he signed it on the Jersey congrats on that and Shohei Otani six of nine she's doing ask rich nice one there for the angels the halos yeah the amethyst those might be the three maybe I don't know I don't like how they don't do colors they just do like gems makes a little tough there I know if the Red Sox are available in any of the other cases there probably not now yachty 259 Reggie Jackson to 99 base base base we've got Christian Yeltsch one out of 18 a brash 15 out of 75 going to the Mariners nice rookie Otto there for the M's I couldn't find the jumbo ones they'll probably be out and sorting ship somewhere we'll want to pick at that anyway Miggie to 99 Greg Maddox to 259 Hunter Korean rookie this case keeps given man base and base got another Miguel Cabrera this time 18 out of 27 going to the Tigers Lorian's doing well with that spot two Miggies now count them to and how like last now going to the rates 13 out of 48 honestly Ryan honestly yeah Miggie is super loyal to Detroit he retires this next year this one farewell tour farewell tour satchel page and speaking of there's another Miggie to 99 base base base and a triple Dodgers is gonna be Clayton Kershaw Walker Bueller who you your eyes to 36 I like peasants compared to the deck I know dude Bobby Gallback 15 out of 25 that's just gravy right there now Tony Gwen to 299 there is Jaren Duren to 150 J rod rookie very Larkin got redemption Austin Riley Amber parallel triple threads autograph relic card that's going to the Braves that's Atlanta Mike a and Xander Bogarts 33 out of 36 he got the redemptions can't help myself actually that's been a fantastic case of triple threads man true that's true Jeff it is perks of the job being able to see redemptions before everybody else can Frank Thomas to 199 pay Ruth to 75 I know this is the one that I was gonna say this is the one you want and I was like what do you mean the one that I want and I saw Fisk Jaren Duren you're like oh here it goes we're in for we're in for a dance here Cal Raleigh to 75 signed it in the right place Mariners and Corey Seeger for the Rangers to 27 blue Bo Jackson to 25 nice one there for you B Doug and Ernie Banks to 250 J rod rookie Tim Anderson Jose of Bray Lou Bob thinks so to be honest Ryan and end it Max Kepler 45 out of 50 going to the twins this one for the twins I'll do for the break guys do a quick recap here very good Corey Seeger Rangers triple Dodgers that's Christian yellow chip brew crew Shohei for the angels there's Alex Bregman Astros Jose Barrios blue jays Joey Gallo Yanks Justin Verlander for the Astros Jose of Ray White Tox Ozzy Alvies going the Braves Mike Trout angels Jose Altuve Astros Mike Trout for the angels Trouts I'll start showing you guys some of the autos as well Blake's catching up on top loading understandable Matt Brash Mariners Cal Raleigh for the Mariners Austin Riley Braves Bobby Dalbert going to the Red Sox Dancy Swanson Braves Cal Raleigh Mariners Will Smith Dodgers Miggy going to the Tigers another relic we've got Xander Bogart for the Red Sox there's Max Kepler for the twins some of our mag stuff toward the end we've got a Matt Chapman from Blue Jays Ian Anderson as going to the Braves that is Josh Lowe raise Nicoladolo Reds Tim Anderson Luba Jose Abreu Rafi I went up thank you as she appreciate you buddy we also had a one Soto 13 out of 18 forgot about that one for the Padres that's kind of nasty about that that's kind of wild actually another Miggy two Miggy's in this break this one's to 27 same parallel just different patches and everything perfect and last one for the Mags we've got Tyler Glass now for the raise next up we've got our mag cards we had a Wander Franco rookie autograph emerald parallel for the raise and a another Wander Franco this one 28 out of 50 on card rookie auto live and then the hit of the day so far by a mile like no nothing even really compares we've got the Red Sox Deca book that's a card that I've been wanting to come out of this shop for like the past whatever how long the products been out I know honestly so happy with the day I come back from Brit that I was that I was happy for it there you go so awesome dude numbered five of five that'll do it for the break guys thanks again for the fill next up the next half key