Actually, no, this is not terrifying at all. This is a request for collaboration from you, because this is the way we improve all of our operations and our health and our safety, and professionally in my career, the reason I'm here is I have never encountered a group which is so collaborative and open and willing to share information, so I'm here for the pure enjoyment of the group, with perhaps a little bit of my ability to bring in some expertise that helps all of us, you know, in a highly stressed environment. So I'll start on this story about where this workshop came from. I'm walking down the street in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I think it's July of 2017. We're trying to figure out what year it is, and we're not sure on that one. But the National Environmental Health Association, and I've known these guys for a couple of years, and they're walking down the street, and it's about lunchtime, and I go, what the hell are you guys doing at NEHA? And then they say, hey, we're going to lunch, you want to go? I said, sure. So we're sitting there at lunch, and there's a beer or two, and I'm there, and it's like Graham looks across the table at me, and Ashconn was sitting on that side, and Graham was sitting on that side, because I remember we were next to a pillar. And Graham said, we're doing some microbiology, by the way.  And the conversation on doing this project started then, and we've all been just a tad busy in the last few years, you know the feeling? And so finally, we've got an opportunity this year to actually kick off something. We've announced it through the FTA already, but these guys have generously offered to help do this workshop and hold the conversation about this. So our special guests, of course, are Graham Talley and Ashconn. Now, you're going to ask why? Why Graham's name comes first? Because I guarantee you there was a bidding war between these two as to how they got listed. Well, Graham responded first. Early bird gets the worm in the bottle of tequila, that is. All right, so what we wanted, let's talk about basic terminology and things like that, for science where we use facts and observations to explain the world around us. We develop a hypothesis, and you might call that what does corn on the cob look like because we use facts and observations? And as the facts and observations change, the hypothesis gets changed. That's like changing your business model. You're already doing this. And where people get a lot of confused in what we're trying to do here is religion is based along faith, not necessarily facts. It may be facts, but not necessarily. And so they're not mutually exclusive, so don't get confused by the two. You can exist with both of them, whatever your beliefs are. All right, basic terminology. Microbiology is a squishy science that deals with life and all the variables. And it drives other scientists crazy. All right, you hear some specific terms, and this is an example of where we need to be very precise. A coliform is this thing that ferments lactose to make acid and gas 24 to 48 hours at 37 degrees. But a fecal coliform does the same thing at 44 degrees. So if you're testing and you get coliforms, it could be the soil, not feces. So there are terms that must be defined in microbiology very precisely, even as squishy as science as it is. All right, let's talk about different kinds of disinfectants for a little bit. Liquids have to contact something. If I had a bottle of liquid disinfectant and I wanted to disinfect gram, I couldn't do it from here. But if I sprayed him, it'd probably cost me a beer later, but it would disinfect him. Yet, filtration is not a disinfection technique. You're removing something but not killing it. Don't think of filtration as a disinfection. It is a control factor. UV kills by cross-linking DNA. But it is intensity and length of exposure. Ozone kills by oxidizing about every damn thing it comes into contact with. We would describe it as a nuclear weapon. The big question is, do these work-and-float solutions? And that's what your health department, the state, the CDC, and whoever your national authority is asking today, do we have solid proof that what we're doing works? I said proof. If you listen to Justin's talk, we're in the same situation as Justin. We have some data but can't prove it conclusively on a scientific basis. OK, disinfectants and sanitizers, they must be registered. The studies are expensive. The labels tell you how to use it.  If the germ isn't listed, you don't know it works. And if you're using it in a manner that it's not listed, so you're using hydrogen peroxide in a float tank and you're calling in a disinfectant, read the label. Is it on the label? Nope. Does it work? Can you prove it? Nope, you can't prove it. It's not a proven fact. So there's more uncertainties. By the way, don't get too terrified because I did this talk three years ago, four years, when I was in 2018. I can't find a germ that I'm really worried about. Based on a theory, I don't have the proof. So this is about how we work together to prove that theory that I came up with in Portland. OK? It's a collective effort to prove that we're safe. And it's back up. All right. What we see in science is some academics. And I've been there. I'm studying a project. I want to study bananas. There's no standard method for bananas, so I create my own method for studying bananas. But the problem is somebody else studies bananas, and they create their own method. And then my result doesn't look like his result, or her result, or Graham's result, or Ashkahn's result because they're studying bananas too, and they didn't know it. Anyway, how do you compare the results? There's no standardization, which is the same problem that Justin, which is the same problem that Flux has had. Standardization of methods. So if we standardize methods and we all study bananas, then Graham and Ashkahn become the world leaders on bananas because they have the data. So when we're doing microbiology, we pick standardized methods, and we can compare them from one to the other, to the other, to the other, to the other. And now we have a database. Science. All right. Health departments use standard methods. Commercial testing labs use standard methods. Universities see a problem. There's no method. They go off on blue sky, and they create their own method. And boy, have I done that a few times. And then we argue whether they're going to have to valid or not. So we, as we're doing this, use standardized methods. And many of you are already going there, but you may not have realized why you went there. This is why, so we can compare results from float centers in Georgia, to California, to Oregon, to Australia, to Hong Kong, to England. All right. How do you select an outside laboratory? Well, there was all this question about, does this lab do any reproducible data whatsoever? Is this lab any good? How do you know? How do you know that this contract lab that you give and all this money is even worth it, aren't it? Well, the US EPA came up with this program called the National Laboratory Accreditation Program, or a conference, NELAC in 1995. And they set up another institute. Of course they set up another institute to run. And they call it the TNI. And then they accredited labs. And they call that NELAC, National Environmental Laboratory Accreditation Conference. I couldn't remember what the C was. And then the lab is accredited through the accreditation program, NELAP. How do you know it's a government program? Look at the acronyms. OK? So this is the kind of lab that you pick, a NELAP lab. Most of you are probably already doing it and didn't even realize it. So you did it by accident? Good. Microbiology methods, where to find them? Now, where to find microbiology? The first thing you do is you ask a geek. Well, the geek is wearing a Hawaiian shirt today with a microphone. And there's a whole variety of places you can find methods. You can do the EPA, the BAM. That's one of my favorite ones. BAM. OK. You got AOAC, another acronym. You got ASTM, another acronym. But what we've really got is the standard methods for the examination of water and wastewater. Really exciting. It's that thick and weighs 10 pounds. So this is the method that you're actually using if you didn't know where it came from. All right. And so the methods that you would use, you would go to the book. And here's the methods. OK, boring. Move on. We've got the methods. We've identified them in the book. We know where they come from. These are the methods that we would use. And by the way, these are the ones, the lab that you're going to, which is NELAP lab, is using that book. Because every NELAP lab owns that book. They own the most current copy of that book. Comes out about every three years, and it costs $175. OK, so that's the methods that they're going to test. But how are you going to test? OK, how are you going to test? Are you going to do swabs? Well, they're qualitative. So does that tell you how many pseudomonas there are? No, it tells you whether they are there. Plus, minus. It's a digital test. Yep, you got pseudomonas. So do you have two pseudomonas or 200 million pseudomonas? You don't know. So you need to use liquid samples. And the minimum size is 100 mils. OK, all right. Then you want to know how you're going to sample. All right, now if this isn't all geek speak, I don't know what is. But this is basic microbiology that you probably are doing and may not have realized. So you use the containers from the laboratory. We'll explain why in a minute. They must be sterile. If you are using hydrogen peroxide or chlorine or ozone, you have to neutralize the sample. You have to tell the lab what you're using so they give you the right sample container, which now means you have a selection issue. And if you are selecting your samples, are you getting them to the lab within six hours for them to process? That means they have to be taken and processed at the lab within six hours or held on ice and processed within 24 hours. Now you have a communication issue. Are you coordinating the day you're pulling the samples with the lab or are you leaving them in the trunk of your car over the weekend on a critical multimillion-dollar study in Manchester, England? Been there, done that. It was a chemist. And for some reason, his data had more reliability with senior management than my data, which had full documentation. OK, what not to use? Q-tips, glass jars. And my favorite one, I have seen this done so many times. It is not funny anymore. Pickle jars. My first encounter in recreational water, I got called into the lab within a month of being on the job. And they wanted me to analyze the sample. And the first thing I noticed was a vinegar sample, a vinegary smell. They had transferred it to a sterile sample and made me work on it before they showed me the jar that looked like that. I got indoctrinated at the crew pretty quickly. All right, so work with the lab. And they're going to have sample labels, and they're going to tell you how to use it. You don't have to create your own sample labels. They'll give you the sample labels if you're doing microbiology. And they'll tell you how to fill them out. Almost all labs do this. You run a cheap lab that doesn't do it.  Now, you've seen these in police programs where they sign off the thing they handed. You guys didn't sign it. OK, so the data matches on the sample. And that's where you track the sample. Who gets the sample? I took the sample. I gave it to Graham. Graham gave it to Ashconn. They didn't sign it. I don't know what they did with the sample. OK. So it's complicated, but it's not hard to do. They're going to teach you how to do it. It's no problem. There's a chain of custody. This is what I found on the internet. And you have to tell the lab what you want to test, because if you don't tell them what you want to test, they won't test it. Then you won't get any results. OK, so you just fill out the paper first time through. I guarantee it's going to be complicated. Second time you're going to be through. It's less complicated. And the third time you're going to say, why was I even worried about it? This is easier than the first stressed float you've ever taken. Just takes a little work. Simply because you find something doesn't mean you've got a health threat. I found a pseudomonas. I have not had, but more than a few phone calls, somebody found a pseudomonas. I don't care. I've run regulated study. And when we found our first pseudomonas, I took the crew out for beer that night because the data looked so good. It looked like we were faking it. You have to find something because it's there. So just because it's there doesn't mean you're correct. It's below the level of concern. Who cares? If it's above the level of concern, you have a plan. What do you do if it's high?  Questions. What do you test for? Well, we need to decide that. I got some ideas. Maybe. How often do you test? I don't know. That's why we're here. What's the action level? Well, we can discuss that. Cost. What cost is too much? It has to be practical. It has to be doable by you folks. And believe me, your complication of running a float center is infinitely more difficult than what you could be doing on a sampling program. Some of you are doing it now. If we design a sampling program as a collaborative effort, as a voluntary effort, and we share data, it has to be less stressful than me talking about deadly diseases to you. It has to be simple. It has to be doable. OK. I wrote the slides and then Ash Khan sent this in here. And it's like, I don't know what the answer is. Let's discuss it. There's some pros and there's some cons. And it's an outside view. I would say, look, it develops a large data set, displays dedication, and minimizes outgoing. And there's really one negative. And that is, if you tail off your sampling after six months or a year, the health department says, why did you stop testing? Were you terrified? You planned and said, it was in the plan from day one. We planned it. And the health department goes, oh, you weren't trying to hide it. So it's all how you are transparent. Because the health department, if they see something that looks suspicious, they dig in if you're being inspected. OK. What standards of operation should we use? Needs to be based on science, not guesswork? We've already done the risk assessment. Many of you sat through it. 2018, we did it again in 2019. We presented it to the CDC. Well, two of us did. One of us missed the presentation because of a hurricane. I'm not going to mention any name, Graham. The chief microbiologist from the CDC was sitting about four rows back from that side right over there. And he's, by the way, a floater. Saw the microbiology and thought, yep, got it. So the CDC's already seen what we think. And they're happy with it. But we can't prove it. So we use standard methods. We have some discussion about this. But what if we share what some of you were already doing? Share the data, just like Justin's talking about. We compile a database with thousands of samples. And that increases the reliability. We could publish it in a scientific journal. And I've already got flux to foolishly volunteer to help. There's beer and ball flux. It's fine. We could share that information, take it to the health departments. This is what we find works. There is nothing to worry about. And then we could develop a rational operating standard. And we could do it through the Float Tank Association, who has graciously offered to sponsor the test. And I just happen to be on the board of directors at the FDA, by the way. And these guys are sharing their information. And so it's really an open question at this point. Some of you have already been in communication with me. Some of you have already got data. The idea is, whatever you're doing, if you're doing something now, start sharing the information. And once I get through swimming pool season, because that's my full-time job right now, I start writing this thing up. And it might take a year or two, just like Justin said. But we now have a database thing for the benefit of everybody. So open question. That's all I got. These guys are up here just to support me, because I've now run out of things to say. What are your concerns? Do you have concerns? Is your health department bugging you about where's your microbiology data? Or are they not bugging? Are they bugging you about chloro... Do you have written procedures? All of these things can be asked by the health department. Or not. Floor's open. I just had a quick question off the bat.  All right, nice. So we've got, like, a good group of people at least into this process. I think we've got eight labs or nine different float centers that are already doing data. I got another question for you, too. How many actually take samples to a lab as part of, like, an ongoing process? Or, like, currently, are taking samples regularly, you know, whatever the time period is? Okay, definitely a few out there. So there's a few. There's a few. Have any of you been asked when you first started up about microbiology? Not a peep? If you didn't hear it? Not a peep. Didn't get asked.  Have you been asked for a manual for your center? How many people were regulated by the health department in their area? Okay, so not a ton. And without picking on you, Texas down there. Did they change that as part of the pool code that just came out, Jeremy? Okay, and for the sake of those on a virtual meeting, Jeremy's talking about a specific local health department down in Texas where they wanted the FDA standards and weren't particularly picky, but they did ask some questions on there. And there, what you're seeing is we've got a difference there, you're San Antonio and then you're Houston. And so there's a difference on a county health department. I see this in Georgia. So there's the county level, there's the state level, there's the national level, there's an international level and we see the same thing in swimming, ghouls and spas. They can be totally different and totally ignore each other when the territory's about each other. Yes, go ahead. One of the ways we do this, and it's like Flux is much more knowledgeable on doing blind studies than I am, but what we do is we code the data to your center and we use some weird number on there and we pull a number out of a hat and your data's there. And the only people that see where that data come from is a couple of the study directors. So it's a blind study and then when it's published, your site's never identified. It's defined by a letter or something. Flux, what do you think? Oh, I can take a crack at answering that too, which is like one of the things too is just having this big pool of data is only gonna get more useful as time goes on and as we collect it. And even though some places are unregulated, there are not only different areas in the US but other countries where they're more or less regulated as well. And having this is kind of helpful for the entire industry to be able to present that data when it comes up and also to use a Roy Vor voice, as hard to say. Also, just because you're unregulated now does not mean that it'll always be so. And at that point, rather than having to suddenly gather all of this data and make it work, having that pre-accumulated and just having this evidence to present is incredibly useful, yeah. I think there's, I'll describe two potential scenarios. The fear level now that I have of getting bad data. It's approaching zero and in microbiology, that's as good as you're gonna get. My biggest fear is what I started talking about in 2018, which is still ongoing, as the industry expands, you become a bigger target for regulation. So many of us are already regulated under fees now. So now if you're generating fees, the health department has to prove they do something to justify the fees.  So I'm scared of that tunnel, looking down the tunnel, is that the light or a freight train rolling down to roll right over us? Because I've seen this in pools and spas where the regulations were not based on science, they were based on political motivations. And so this is a preemptive strike. And, okay, other, oh, over here. Fresh hold for contaminants, if you will. And then, like I said, it would bring legitimacy to the centers, right? Right. Just for the data collecting purposes, would it be critical to track how many floats have been through the solution? It would probably be helpful, but not essential. Because what you're really doing when you're doing a sampling like this is really a snapshot in time. So that's the critical information, but Flux and I will tell you we're data geeks. We'll take all the data that you get. And so we would encourage massive amounts of data and then Flux gets to crush it. Yeah, I'm curious too if there, like, should there be any consideration for the fact that you're taking a sample like before or after filtration? Yeah, it's like, you know, in swimming pools, for instance, if you're doing a study under the US EPA guidelines, OCSPP-810-2600, thank you, Jen, I got it. All right. You collect 144 samples over the length of a swimming pool season, which is generally five months.  We could write our own sampling procedure based upon just logic. And you guys know your float tanks. I'm a pool boy. I'm here to help and drink the beer. Okay, let's be honest. I'm here to help and drink the beer. That is what we promised him when we brought him into the industry, yeah. Yeah, and before we run out of time, I remember we... Oh, you understood this? Oh yeah, there's, you know. Oh, this is also that now. This is also that now. Perhaps it's a reward if you were to send in your data, no promises though. You may just get your very own Roy Vorsox with little glasses of beer and Roy Vor's face on them. And I would like to point out that these guys were so generous that they made the beer an amber instead of an IPA. We wanted them to wear them, so. Because I wouldn't have warned them if they were an IPA. Yeah. It's my turn. Yep. I'm just here to share some virtual comments and questions for you. Oh, nice. Geert says I did lab tests monthly for four years in Belgium, not regulated. Four years? Tested? Yes. Got data? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, tell him to send it along. Send it along. Send it along. Send it along. And Randall... Except for the Whitbeer. I don't like the Whitbeer. They don't have to send that along. Randall would like to know what kind of testing equipment we will need on site, if any. None? Yeah, just probably like bottles that you get from the lab. Like when we do it, we actually get sample things. The price of the bottles and the labels and everything is part of the cost of the sampling that you might be doing already. So the lab's gonna give it to you for free and then they're gonna charge you on the back end for it. What are you finding? 30 bucks a sample to somewhere in that range? We get charged different amounts for the different tests that we do. But I think it's across, I think we do four things now. We are usually paying like 150 or something for four tests per year. Yeah, somewhere around there. I think the tests range from, yeah, around like high 20s to... $30 to $40 per test is a standard national range or something in there per sample. And when this gets going to, for those of you who are reaching out to labs to find testing, we found there was at least in the like non-government side of things for the private labs that are doing testing. They're competitive. Or lab labs that are available for private companies, I should say, to do testing, huge range of prices. Like one place wanted us to charge us almost $100 per test, called around and eventually found one that was more like $35 per test. So don't just assume that all labs, because this standardized science are actually charging the same amount of money. Yeah, huge, huge variation. So I guarantee you, if you were in a major metropolitan area in the United States, there's at least three commercial test labs that are testing water right now. And the prices, if they're international, will be somewhat competitive. But if they're small, they could be all over the map.  Jen. Let's go to the microphone. Okay, sorry, go to the mic. I'm sorry, but just my question was actually about the testing. So I went to my local pool places and water places where I get my water. And I'm like, do you guys do testing? And they're like, oh, maybe once a year we take all of our people and we'll put it all in. So I didn't have a place to go. I wasn't exactly sure. So I wanna participate, but I really don't understand what should I be looking for? And I did take a picture of your slide. What specifically do we wanna ask them to look for in that way? Really good questions. Let me answer the first part on swimming pools. Generally, depending upon the state you're in, and I think the only current state that requires microbiology tests in the United States, last time I looked was New Jersey. And Washington requires it for float tanks. For float tanks, all right. Now the reason in pools and spas you don't have to do microbiology is we know if you are maintaining one PPM of chlorine in a swimming pool, there is better than a 99% chance that it is well disinfected. And as a matter of fact, there has never been an illness except for one organism in swimming pools when there was one PPM of free chlorine and that's data based upon hundreds of thousands of samples. So one PPM in a swimming pool is proven technology. So if it's proven technology, you go, eh, we're not gonna test for it. It's a waste of time. Float tanks, ooh, don't have the data. That's what we're trying to do. What is that level? And one of the variabilities when we collect needs to be what is your salt concentration, okay? Because if your salt concentration, if your specific gravity is 1.23 or something like that, you might have pseudomonas like crazy. We don't know. We don't know where that cutoff is yet. So there is some data and this is party. Let's just call this the opening conversation. Then as we move into this project, the Float Tank Association is planning quarterly calls through the FDA on standards. This project as a forum for sharing information and sharing ideas. So this is just a kickoff. This is the formal public rollout. You're asking questions. Probably the health department's gonna wanna know pseudomonas and fecal coliforms. They might wanna know coliforms, but I think I could make a real good argument that you don't need to test for that. You know, some people might, you know, but if we make a case, some people might want Staphylococcus, but there are no Staphylococcal incidents in swimming pools and we could assume that here too. So we have pretty good list of what we probably would be testing and it's pretty small to three organisms at most periodically. So and we'll put out details too when we get closer to collecting data for exactly what kind of lab to look for and things like that too. There's usually directories that are kind of localized to states or counties for labs that are more certified to test for different things. Yeah, like in Oregon, the Oregon EPA website just lists every certified lab in the state and you can just go find the ones around you. Yeah, we can get a website posted up there that say this is the way you find a lab in your state and there's lists that you find on. By the way, in doing independent consulting over the last couple of years, how did I find the labs that I use? The internet, it took me about 10 minutes. Okay, next question. Sorry, Jen. All right. I got a quick question actually. One of the things I was curious about is we have the various things that we're concerned about at least in pools and spas when we're talking about E. coli versus pseudomonas versus like cryptosporidium or giardia. And then some of those things seem really easy to test with these lab tests, right? Like pseudomonas and E. coli. But I did some point it was like, I wonder if I can test for crypto because that's like that, something that would be good to have some information on and when I contacted our lab, they're like, oh, like we could find a place out of state and it's really expensive and complicated. Yeah, one of my colleagues from the pool and spa industry is Jen, is here with me. And we have run into this search for doing crypto, cryptosporidium. It's a major pathogen in pools and spas, pools, not spas. And the reason it's a major pathogen is it's chlorine resistant. And you've got to use UV or ozone to kill it in there. All right, but the good news is, okay, for float tanks, are you using a one micron filter? Are you? If you're using one micron filter, crypto is bigger. Ooh, how about that Jeremy? Run it through a couple of the times between floaters and you filtered out the crypto.  So could we test for it? Yeah, there are tests for it. But unfortunately, I found that the EPA test for it is not necessarily a live dead test. It made you say, yep, you got crypto, but didn't say that it would cause disease. It's more of a presence absence test. And so it's like a question that's like, hey, you want a beer? But you don't know what kind of beer you're gonna get. Okay? So if you want to test for it, we got to do a little bit more digging and put it frankly, we would be more economical in the long run to standardize on a one micron bag filter and just eliminate the conversation. As we move forward with equipment design, and I've had this conversation with nearly all the manufacturers and they're aware of what my view is like, if you got a one micron bag filter, it's gone. Who cares? And if it's gone, you're wasting your money to test for it. Jen, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait for the microphone, Jen. I got to yell at my colleague, by the way. He yells at me all the time. So I'm new to the flow tank industry, but I'm from the pool and spa industry, as Roy mentioned, and because filtration is so effective in removing pathogens like cryptosporidium, which we know are very, very, can cause a lot of illness, right? It's really important that we have some sort of standard, and I'm sure you guys are probably already doing this, but some sort of standard around how often you check your filters, and that should probably be based upon how many floats you have and things like that. And so finding a consistent way to do this, this is the thing that health regulators are gonna really hone in on because we know the swimming pool and spa industry so well. And another pathogen that we should probably talk about, Roy, is Legionella. Because... Nope, not worried about it. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Nope! Okay, well that was a hard to test for, so it's a little more complicated. Why, all right, Legionella is the only pathogen in recreational water that has a high lethality rate. And people with underlying health conditions such as emphysema, smoking, diabetes, organ transplants in an untreated case, Legionella from spas can have a fatality rate of approaching 30%. No other pathogen has a fatality rate over 1%. Legionella is transmitted in droplets, are your people floating in an aerosolized environment with the pumps running? If the pumps turned off and you don't have aerosols, you don't have Legionella. And besides that, it can't grow in that much magnesium sulfate. Move on. And then they're being exposed to that, the pumps and the aerosolization. I think the risk assessment we did this, that Ben Till from CDC has seen it, I have virtually zero concern about Legionella, virtually zero, and it's probably as low as we can get. And if we go back and look at the 2018 documentation, we laid it out. We could, now, Jen points out something. We got a model, so we might have to do limited testing, not a whole lot, but if you proved with a little amount of testing, then you killed that entire concept. So it could be, but I don't have any concern on it. I have a question for you. Yup. What's the minimum amount of testing from a single center that would be useful? Like if we got every float center in the world to do one round of tests on all of their float tanks, is that useful or is there a minimum like five rounds of testing over a month? Well, it all depends on how you design the study. And to a large extent, Lux chime in here anytime on this one, what we necessarily are talking about is a random grab sample across a whole variety of parameters. Now, how to statistically analyze it is gonna be different. But if we have hundreds, if not thousands of samples across representative areas, and we've covered parameters on there, we're likely to have a sufficient database. We've gotta have at least a few hundred samples, at least a few hundred samples. And many of you guys have got hundreds of samples now, but you got one location. All right, have that been replicated at another facility? Now we got somebody day over here, we got somebody over here, we got somebody over here. And now we're seeing the same pattern across everything. Now, the biggest issue we got right now is different labs are using different methodologies. They're using different standard method numbers. So it's not directly comparable. So it's a little statistically ugly, but hundreds of samples. So a couple of years of samples that you've already got. I don't know how many samples we've got the last time. You guys shared the data a couple of years ago, but I haven't looked at it in two years. Yeah, I mean we, I think we've been testing since 2012, but a little less frequently, but now we do once a month. So somebody that had a couple of years of samples, and another sample, a couple of years, and another, it may be, I don't know, it may be we're approaching the magic number now, or it may be we need to collect for another year. So more work to do. I know exactly how Justin feels about trying to figure out the unknowns, because I frankly don't know how to do everything at this point. That's why we're asking for help. Andy? Yeah, is there any ability to get a large lab to just sort of partner with us? Economies of scale get cheaper testing and have them do the same tests on every sample that comes in. Everyone sort of mails their lab, their sample there. It might have to be if they have regional locations of the timing, but... Andy, that's an interesting thought on there. We could, there are international labs, one name comes to mind, it's Eurofins. Yeah, and it's like, Jen and I can do some research on that, and it's like, but somebody, there are branches across the entire United States, maybe we could cut a deal and say, we want this test. Right, and we know it's the same procedure, same company. And it would have to be like overnight shipping on us, and it has to be, well, if the sample is processed within 24 hours, the problem is it needs to be, if it's not processed, it needs to be held on ice. What happens when you put 30% magnet sulfate solution on an ice solution? Oops, maybe we need to rethink that ice a little bit. I'm a water guy, come on. We've also, I mean, even just with us and the limited amount of sampling we're doing from our One Float Center have talked to our lab and been like, hey, we're gonna bring in a sample like every month across these things, can you like cut us a deal? And that's work too, so it doesn't seem like you have to be... It's like a couple floats under the table. Yeah, so yeah, even if you're trying to do anything with any consistency, you might be able to get a deal. And whatever we'll standardize on, we'll do more research on it, we'll go say standard methods 9213E. And so, standardize, so every, you tell a lab, I want standard methods 9213E, it will take them less than two minutes to have the SOP laid out on the desk saying, yes, we can do that. Their intake will have a list of everything they do, they will be trained on it, they will be proficient on it, they will have had to have been tested by an independent agency and certified. They are certified laboratories. And so, when some public health department says, that data's not me damn good, and you pull out the NELAP certificate and go, yep. So, it's worked for me on this kind of argument on various other things with health departments to do a program like this, so. Okay, we got about five minutes left. Additional thoughts, what do you think? Does it sound like something that you're interested in?  We can see you. Okay. Oh, we got one more question there. Specifically for Graham and Ashkahn, since you guys have been testing since 2012, have you done any sort of like, have you tried to use that as a bit of an asset to show customers how pristine your water is and just say, hey, look at all this data. This water is crystal clear, safe, you know what I mean? Like, we could promote this as like a way to make floating a little bit more approachable and less like, ooh, I'm getting in the same water as everyone else, you know? Yeah, I mean, mostly just being able to say that you do it is as far as we've ever needed to go. Like, we've never actually been like, look at these lab reports, because, yeah, you know, they look like lab reports, but we do tell it to people, we're like, yeah, you know, we do, this is, how do you clean the float tanks? We do this, we do this, we do, you know, testing, we actually take samples to the lab and test for different things, and it's kind of like part of our sort of spiel on our general sanitation practices. Yeah, it's really useful for addressing one-off concerns, like for some customers that come into float, you know, like the float water being clean is actually the primary thing that they're worried about and probably one of the main reasons they haven't come into float is their, you know, germaphobes or they're just, you know, very cautious about what they're doing in an unknown environment. And in that case, yeah, just being able to mention it to them and say, like, hey, this is, like Ash Khan said, this is what we do, is awesome. I think the only time we put that out publicly was during our COVID procedures video, where we're talking about how we, like how we're cleaning the facility just in general and extra practices. And we also threw in a little mention of like, and we take these to get tested by an external lab, right? So it is a nice thing for sure. When the concern is, is germs to be able to toss that out there. And I think one time, like years ago, someone contacted us saying they have like floated and then, you know, something weird was going on. And it was nice to just like, we could look back. I mean, not just our like lab tests, but all the stuff you're measuring, right? Like your levels and logs that you keep for whatever sanitation systems you have.  We do like lab testing. We haven't gotten any unusual readings. All of our levels were in range. Like, you know, there's probably a good chance it wasn't the float tank. And that wasn't up. Like they were like, okay, thanks. And like that actually was a satisfying answer to them. And they were sort of convinced that it was maybe just a coincidence or something else that happened in their life. Yeah, and that is one of the values in a documentation trail is to, in case you get into a lawsuit, we've done this. And then it shows due diligence from a responsibility on your part. You've done your job and you've met a standard of conduct. And that's really quite a, you know, an FTA type North American float standard can provide. We followed the standard. Here it is, it's based upon science. And frequently that is used as a negotiating point in lawsuits. Yeah, the other thing I'll throw out there just cost-wise, it was kind of briefly on that testing schedule slide. As one thing we started doing was, you know, we have six float tanks and for a while we were testing it twice a year. And so we would go and take a sample from all six tanks in twice a year into the lab to get it tested. And then at some point we decided to switch it to taking a sample from a single tank in every month. And so, you know, it's more driving time. Like you gotta like go to the lab and deal with this every month. But it's the same amount of cost in terms of actual testing. And we get just a slightly better sampling of time.  But it does allow us to just at least have like one tank a month kind of getting some info back from it for the same cost as taking them all in every six months. Also just like human psychology-wise, we found that doing it every month kind of makes it more consistent and reliable. Like I feel like every six months it was hard to actually stay on top of like getting that done or get pushed aside a little bit more. And now that it's just part of our regular monthly operations, it's a lot easier to just like stand on top of that. With just standard operational management, the more you do something that's routine, the more you're consistent on your results, the same people are doing it or they're doing it. So they remember how, if you do it once a year, what the hell did I do a year ago? And it is actually- Well, that's a personal experience, by the way. We found, too, it is really easy to mess up your samples just as a pro tip. I mean, we'll put this all out when we start asking people to collect samples and have advice and things like that. But one of the biggest things is just not getting contaminants from your hands or in the process of filling up the bottle on there, right? It's so easy to cross contaminate and not be actually getting positive readings from the float tank, but from something else in the environment, including just your fingers that got on there. You have no idea how many times- Or pickle jars. We've really tried using the pickle jar thing for a while, but you're right, our readings were all over the place. We switched to using the labs. Yeah. All right, you will hear more from us. Thank you for your time. Yeah, thanks, everyone. Thank you.


do is add the flexibility that we had that row home configuration those are often built out with a you know a garden level apartment in the basement and you know I can say from inspecting a number of row homes at Finney Crossing there's a whole bunch of occupiable space in those basement levels that you know this would just allow that to be also utilized as an accessory unit if somebody wish after that when we look at building form we're looking at the standards that are specific to each of our frontage types so remember that this is where you look to learn about the minimum and maximum allowed building heights and then you'll see these diagrams called the tofu diagrams because the buildings are just big white cubes but in the tofu diagrams you can see versions of the same lot being developed in different ways all in accordance with the standards the green on those diagrams showing how the required private open area is provided the black line being the built-in line the blue line being that generally 30 foot back park setback line and then the building height showing just in terms of the number of stories stacked up there so you see you see different ways that that can happen and then the I'm on 29 diagram for the placement diagram that just shows where things where things happen on that site just wanted to clarify the green is the private open area so then we're using the town center frontage right now as an example I'm on 30 and 31 you see these diagrams that are specific to each form district so and underneath that diagram on 30 you see the discussion of what those form standards are in this district so here in the town center you need to occupy at least 80% that required building line length if you don't build on it you need a street wall you are allowed to chamfer a corner to provide a corner entry in other words not come right to the build two line of corner and you can generally occupy the street you can see where the buildable area is and if you look up at that diagram above C you see a red line so you can come back with a full allowed height of the building for a maximum depth of 80 feet after that your maximum height is one story so think back to those toky diagrams on the page or you see the full height of the building and then sometimes you might see another piece of structure that's more than 80 feet back from the street that's limited to one story by the utility area garage entry or something else like that full height within 80 feet you see a maximum building footprint you see a maximum building frontage and a minimum building frontage so the maximum width of the building here is 180 feet the minimum is 60 feet and then you see the specification for private open area of the green 15 percent of the buildable area on that lot needing to be dedicated to private open area so that's how you figure that out you see parking setback again blue dashed line any parking forward of that setback line would need to be completely underground if you put it completely underground it's fine if it's right up against the door yard because we're not seeing it anymore but if it's visible it's got to be stepped back those 30 feet and then on 31 you see the vertical version of the diagram of the building height so in this district maximum five stories minimum three we're looking at a finished floor elevation and if you look inside the building you see a couple of elevations you see something says minus six to 18 inches and then three to six feet the idea here is if you're intending a commercial ground story the idea is for that commercial used to be between minus six to 18 plus inches to the street level in other words you walk right into a retail store off the sidewalk if you're doing residential it's really not very nice to be eyeball to eyeball with everyone who's who's outside while you're washing the dishes so minimum three maximum six and one of the questions that came out of that was well if my residential ground floor has to be about the sidewalk like that what am I going to do about ABA well the answer is you can use that door yard to build your stew and to build your ramp so you can occupy that five or seven foot wide door yard with that ramp element so you can ramp down to the sidewalk so we talk about those things again we're regulating building height in stories but we do also have a number of feet there just in case somebody thought we're going to build them five 30 foot stories or something the maximum height here says 64 feet and that's defined building height go back to the definitions clear sidewalk to top of top plate meeting the top of the building before the roof pitch starts so there's a couple ways to look at height and you have to comply with them all and then you see ground story clear height so if you are going for retail it's a taller ground story if you're definitely intending to raise residential it's a residential dimension and again only one place in the code area where we require that retail ground story and it's not here in the town center so each of the designation areas works the same way I'm flipping into the red and then the yellow on page 36 the transitional neighborhood frontage they work the same way but the numbers change so I'm just going to compare on pages 38 39 transitional neighborhood the yellow sorry the light orange on the map in fact let's keep going let's go all the way down stroll of the neighborhood it's the lowest intensity one on 42 and 43 you see pictures showing in 10 you see the tofu diagrams they look different the tofu is smaller because the allowed building is smaller the required open areas a little different as well it's bigger it's 20% instead of 15 if you go to 44 and 45 you'll see the flat diagram and the height diagram um very similar diagrams except here we have maximum minimum to maximum three stories maximum building height at 42 we have still full height within 80 feet and a few of the other standards are a little bit different as well biggest difference here is the maximum building footprint is only 7,000 square feet so this is a much more likely to be fully residential scale design but each of our different building form standard areas works this way figure out where you are on the map go to building form look at the placement diagrams look at the site diagram and the height diagram and the things that are on these two pages and you know most of what you need to know about where you can put the building on the site and how big it's going to be allowed to be so I'm going to pause there some questions because there's a lot to take on the machine is locked wow I can just say that this is part of why zoning administrator be able to permit things be backed up it's not just one zoning administrator it's this code right coming down to these really from the brain level which we don't know I guess my question is less about all that you presented tonight because it's a lot in terms of tab three building form standards really what I'm interested in is how did we get to these standards and these standards on this part of the map is there a relatively quick answer to that sure I can I can give a try so where we are today in most of the growth center in terms of building placement is we have a line in the bylaw that says the setback is you know sometimes it's 20 feet from a state highway in most of these districts otherwise the building shall be brought to the sidewalk wherever that ends up being placed and there's quite a bit of flexibility where the sidewalk is placed and just what brought to the sidewalk means it's not especially clear the intent of the current bylaw is very much to do something that looks like this in terms of building placement a big difference today Vermont statute when talking about zoning just uses the term development and so for the sake of consistency we have a lot of statements on the bylaw that say all development is subject to this setback well you're bringing development to the sidewalk and all development is subject to setback and parking is a type of development you can as in the current all the proposal to pick an example build a parking lot upon the sidewalk more or less you don't have a special setback for that when you try to do things like say parking needs to be behind or beside a building you start to ask yourself for what's front and what's side and how squishy are those terms when we are on corners so I think how did we get here we wanted to refine those things but let's talk about what I think the biggest difference is which is the building height today in most of these districts if you are building either affordable housing or structured apartment underneath the building your maximum height is 56 feet and that's for the roof and believe it or not roof is a somewhat torture definition all by itself one of the things it doesn't include is the mechanical equipment on top of that roof and any screening around it we sort of learned that hard way processing some certificates on a couple of buildings in tough corners where we had a building either at the 36 or that 56 foot limit but then a giant piece of mechanical equipment with giant stocky fence around it providing apparently hiding it although in some opinions emphasizing it and so really we're looking at something that looks more like 66 or 70 feet with this sort of appendage on the top so the intent here was to take as I keep saying sort of an evolutionary step from what we have that the building height is no longer conditional on the provision of affordable housing or structured parking but most development is going to at least want to do structured parking just because of the way it works in terms of trying to develop one of these sites and it's a small step beyond what's currently allowed those maximum heights so 64 feet pitched roof on top of it yeah you know you could you could be looking at 72 75 feet on a five-story building at 64 plus steam room you know maybe with some dormants that is that is different there were vigorous conversations at the planning commission especially about maximum building height and there was some disagreement about it what's right in terms of the scale for tap corners a lot of that goes back to the conversation about to what extent does the town want to try to set table for a greater abundance of housing at various levels of portability because more height means more units on the same amount of land and a possibility of sharing costs and I'll leave it there I think Megan you might have some things to say about it yeah yeah and it was definitely something we had a lot of conversations on and and you know I think that there is some certainly there was some sentiment within the planning commission some members felt like yes we we need to achieve those efficiencies let's go to the height some felt a little hesitant about that and understandably it's very different than you know most of what we have at least in the other side of route two and I think ultimately you know we put it forward with this suggested five-story limit probably see what you folks say and I want to actually go back to the question though because the way I've heard your question was a little different than what Matt interpreted my reaction to your question about like how would we decide what goes where was to look at the regulator and if you look at the regulating plan you see this center of high density right in terms of particularly in terms of the possibilities of commercial use on right avenue kind of in the middle of this district and then gradually going outward from that you have the the dark orange this is not 100 you know consistent but you've got the darker orange and then the lighter orange and then the yellow is the is essentially zephyrote in that area and so in the the way I heard your question was how do we come up with what goes where I think that's part of the way I would answer is well essentially a very you know as as most you know driving urban places are it's got a more high intensity use core with a bit of gradual sort of gradient so that allows a lot of different things it allows some very high value land uses particularly in that core area and yet it's also differentiated enough so that there is you know a lot of progress made for our goal of a lawful community and then you know I guess the last thing I'll say about taking a sort of regulating plan approach here is that the location in this in the sort of gradient of intensity of use and maybe building height to some degree also allows the sort of differentiation that we as as human beings find pleasing right so it's not all completely overwhelming in terms of height but it's also not random you know there's a clustered area of taller buildings you know in potential full build out of this which is up for two but and then you know it's kind of logical there's like you know what to expect because in different parts of the plan there are different height limits and so there's going to be some consistency and some gradual changes and predictable predictability as well so I guess that's a a sort of very different take on your question but maybe between the two of us you got something out of that to be honest I'm not I mean again this is a lot yeah and so I'm not even sure where to begin is the is the planning commission I mean is there a consensus that you know you know of course there's a kind of different ways in which this could have ended up but is there a general consensus that what we ended up is a an appropriate approach maybe that's not the best word for you know that concept of that core and dense area and the spillout out of it if you will and less less intense but still you know fairly dense compared to the rest of what was then development I mean did that and given that you know the train that's there given some of the existing uses that were there given the you know the major bisecting thing right now which is root 2a and root 2 yeah I mean I'm just trying to get a sense of I'm looking you to help me understand how I should feel about this you should you should go for it because we did we spent 18 months going through this with a fine two film arguing about whether we should include fiberglass in the list of materials for siding or doors or you know whether stoop meant that it had a cover on it or the stoop really means stairs I mean we went down to really really fine levels but also I think we had a pretty good sense of the overall goals and and sense of what it it could potentially look like at some point we voted by one to bring it to you folks we had one person not present and and one person who had some very healthy questions about you know building height parking you know some of the friction points that I think we can certainly still work on and we would you know partly like to hear from you as well on those but overwhelmingly and and that person said they were in favor of like most of these things right there were a couple details that were kind of hangouts but we you know we worked hard on it and we feel like we have considered the population of Williston who we are kind of in a sense representing at some level and you know we we brought a lot of different viewpoints in and came to you with a five to one vote so I'll leave it there so we'll have at our next meeting we'll have a great opportunity to hear other decisions on this and answer our sort of our philosophical questions as well so I think we still have a fair enough amount to do it tonight at the rest of the meeting so thank you and we'll look forward to seeing you again in a couple weeks thank you thanks so Matt you're still with us here and we're going to move on to the wastewater allocation request regarding to encouraging specific development you've written a very nice smell to us and if you give us a brief overview of this and I presume we have somebody else who will be giving a presentation on this yeah we we have some folks um from the applicant here tonight my name is Norman Stanislaus I am the property manager at White Caps Business Park the real estate broker at White Caps Business Park and also I'm the contractor and I have been there from the inception of the start at White Caps great so what the select court has before it is a request to purchase for the purpose of locating evergreen family health in the White Caps building up to 3,750 gallons per day wastewater treatment capacity from the encouraged specific development category of sewer allocation as it was established in the fiscal year 2022 attached today to the town of Williston regulation of sewer allocation ordinance this category of allocation has 10,000 gallons per day in it this is the one category of allocation the select board votes on every year that cannot be sold to users simply by the staff as all the other categories new commercial new residential etc can be it requires that somebody wishing to purchase allocation from this category come before the select board request to make that purchase and that request for purchase be analyzed against the requirements of the allocation ordinance and the town plan and Williston developed bylaw so I'll I'll go into that um a little bit uh in a minute the purpose of the request for allocation as I said is to facilitate the relocation of evergreen family health which is a general practice medical use from its current location in Williston at Park Avenue to the White Cap building the White Cap building represents a long-standing adaptive reuse project of the former Ross Nelsky Company warehouse on industrial Avenue in fact I think it's one of the first places I was given a tour of when I came to the town in 2008 and both in the town plan and Williston's bylaws there's some specific language I'll talk about that intends to support flexibility for allowed uses in these adaptive reuse type situations particularly in the industrial zoning district and as it was explained to me back in 2008 this particular building is in good shape it's a building with long useful life ahead of it but generally not tall enough for the kinds of warehouse uses it was originally designed for racking doesn't fit it's not useful for that purpose anymore and since many years ago there's been a project ongoing to outfit various parts of the building for other uses and this continues that process so this would allow the fit up of up to 18,856 square feet in the building which would support the operation at 32 doctors and nurses 13 other employees this adaptive reuse would also place evergreen family health in a building that can support expansion into another 8600 plus or minus square feet as shown on the plan that I provided you in your package so to support the relocation as shown by the applicants calculations which I've attached 3742 gallons per day would be needed to get this project off the ground the applicant did purchase 1621 gallons per day from the town out of the new commercial category they did this in that amount because that was exactly how many gallons per day was remaining in category for the fiscal year they bought it all and hence we find ourselves in a position where we've done a you know a month and change to go in the fiscal year and cannot support any other new commercial no matter how small until the term of the fiscal year so the recommendation I'm making is that the select board vote on allowing up to 3750 which would support the full amount needed by evergreen would allow us for that remaining month or so to return the 1621 into the new commercial category and deal with any small projects that come down the pipe for the remainder of the fiscal year and I worded it to say authorize the sale of up to just to allow for some flexibility to make sense to strike that balance in a different staff level and staff would have the ability to do that but all of whatever green needs could be sold from the encouraging specific development category so as I said to sell allocation out of this category a select board vote is required and that this is different from the way other allocation works in attachment a and the allocation ordinance identifies encourage specific types of development including but not limited to housing for specific populations and major employers and based in export industries and it and goes on to state allocation made under this provision must be to implement a specific goal of the comprehensive plan so I wanted to talk a little bit tonight about the town plan goals that could be supported by this sale of allocation and the first the first place we do that page two of your memo is talking about it in the land use chapter chapter three this is in the current Williston comprehensive plan the plan acknowledges that there's been a real change in the mix of uses in industrial lands in Williston it's becoming more diverse and we have space in large buildings along industrial have that has changed including office gym daycare etc that are allowed by zoning in the area especially when existing buildings are converted so I'll stop there just mention that in the bylaw our industrial lands chapter has specific provisions allowing greater flexibility for loud uses in the adaptive reuse building identifies adaptive reuse is a building that is being repurposed and has been approved for such under a site plan approval which the White Capital has been through a number of site plan approvals with DRV with office and other service uses like medical specifically identify as purposes for that repurposing of the building we have an objective in land use chapter calling for changes in refinement and standards applied to uses of industrial lands and implementation of that policy in the bylaw as I quoted before in 36132 offices we wouldn't we wouldn't let somebody build a new office building in the industrial district but we would let somebody do office work in a converted adaptive used industrial building we also in our economic development chapter of the town plan refer back to the land use chapters and talk about the fact that supporting adaptive reuse is also an economic development strategy related to job expansion creation and retention in lowest finally in 2020 the select court voted a slate of amendments to the town plan and one of one of the focuses of that was to add public health policy goals throughout the plan and included in those added statements was one referencing Williston's vision to support active living healthy eating access to services and recreational opportunities within the town I would see this as falling under the access to services element of that statement in that retaining a primary care medical practice in town in a place where it has room to expand means that access is available to town residents workers and others and I conclude my memo with something I already brought up which is why 3750 how that balances against the existing purchase of 1621 and some of the ways in which that would be handled with a purchase let's stop there so would you occur done anything other than what Matt has already had a great job okay very thorough we're open to questions from the board oh boy um well anybody else first right well the first question kind of mundane ones is it was unclear to me who is actually purchasing the capacity is it white caps or is it evergreen wake cat business park as the landlord is purchasing the capacity okay okay so and then you're going to evergreen will rent space from you that's correct so the kind of the question becomes this let's say evergreens there for a year for whatever reason they move the capacity will stay with white cap I assume even though the use is that it has access to that capacity may no longer be the same use and that's just part of the game that could happen okay and I guess the same thing with wherever green is right now whatever capacities is associated with their facility on park park avenue was it park street park avenue we'll just stay with that build yes okay I just want to make sure I understood that part of it the part that's it gets a little tricky for me is I'm reading under what you know we have this well actually first let me go back to wide the question is is why do you want this now in other words to get out of this capacity now versus in a month and a half we'll be into our next fiscal year and all the numbers will reset back to zero so I guess I'm asking the question is the time between now and when that capacity becomes available because our next attachment a goes into effect which I assume is July 1st is that a factor in why you're coming for us for allocation out of this pot of yes unfortunately it is a factor it is okay and that's all you need to say that's I just wanted to make sure I understood that so my next set of questions is I'm on page one of your memo and it talks about the sewer allocation ordinance and I'm going to focus on the very last sentence where it says made under this provision must be to in the word here is implement a specific goal in the town plan so all implement means is it's consistent with the town plan it you know implement is is it meets the requirement of the town plan that's how it implements it I'm on to the next paragraph which is on the top of page two and under the first sentence there it says provided the project further identify goals and that word further to me is very different than implement further means it takes what's in the town plan and says these are the you know these are the goals you need to meet but you go further than what those goals are so I guess my question is is which is it implements or furthers if it's implements it's very easy the answer is yes if it's furthers then it becomes interpretation have you gone further enough and I hate being in that position I know that I agree with your interpretation of that language okay great I don't you know if something furthers a goal it can do that by implementing it it's not like that crap door or something that you know well you've got you've got to go further I don't think the word further doesn't the word further in this context doesn't mean go beyond it means bring about okay fair enough um and you and I might differ there but that you know doesn't really matter my question is is let's let's let's take not take 10s I didn't mean it like that so I further means further and implement have the same meaning why do we even have this category of 10 000 gallons because anybody who meets the town plan would get it under commercial or under this category I've never understood that because we put no real requirements it really doesn't need to do anything except meet the town plan which it has to in order to get capacity no matter what I've never understood that does that make sense that kind of question I have it does we might as well just say this 10 000 gallons is available to anybody who meets the town plan doesn't matter if it's well I guess we could say residential versus non-residential but I've never understand when we make people jump through the hoop of demonstrating they're doing what we know they're already doing well the first thing I'll say is struggling through the ordinance in order to write this memo has never made me want to help somebody work lies in the ordinance more it's it's it's next year let's do it next year and and there are some language differences that I think connected better yeah the town plan um to answer your question about implement versus further implement in the ordinance further is a word choice in your cash and a memo so if they are different I would say implement the goal if they're not and we don't have to worry about it but I further to the goal of the town plan was either myself and my predecessors are just trying to summarize like 75.3 of the allocation ordinance I I think though your question of well everything should be achieved in a town plan um so so why have discretion over any of any of the allocation at all um I think the intent there is that what I mean is that there is an anticipation of the ordinance that sometimes all of the allocation needed category would be sold before the fiscal year had ended or somebody would have a project so large that they really needed more than the select court just wanted to go ahead and budget sold over the counter um so in the case of Caring Green Mountain wanting to come in and purchase all 10,000 gallons per day you know that's somebody coming to you saying I'd like to buy a year's worth of restaurants to grow and put it into my my factory so that there might be a hold back um and some decision making on the part of the select board about some of this I can kind of understand where that comes from I do I do think the ordinance could be at some point looked at what would the board really like to scratch it over at that at that point and should there even be a number on it should it just be if you want something that's not in a tax finnay you've got to come talk to yeah you know right um it's it's a sort of a self imposed limit yeah uh but I do think also you know we we have uses that meet zoning that go in and buy capacity that don't necessarily really achieve or move along any particular town they they comply with the zoning they're allowed but they're not necessarily well boy letting this thing that uses a bunch of water into the town it's really going to change it it's just sort of it's part of the nuts and bolts running the town it's now like for this stuff so everything should be in accordance with the town plan but some things really really might move a state goal the town plan a wall okay and then my last question will be is um under the public health goal and um it's the wording maintains access to needed services and so when I first read that I was like what is that um and you know I could see word you know like an emergency care or evergreen is a needed service and my question kind of then became okay well what are other needed services for instance mental health would that be a mental you know facility you can see where that could be how about rehabilitation um the type and it just is all I was trying to do is when I think of public health I think of causing people to exercise and that type of thing and be active we took it a step further and said and then those services that protect that you know you're active well my wife fell off a bike got hurt and actually we used evergreen and they were great um and so I could see that but I'm just wondering if there's kind of at what I don't know I just was kind of wondering you know I see the connection but I'm kind of wondering if it's the right connection between a healthy health goals and what types of facilities um I guess I was wondering is a service more of a gym than it is let's say health facility you know a medical facility so I was just wondering not wondering I was questioning whether this is what was meant by needed services and I assume the you're saying yes because I put it in here well so you know we've worked with some staff in the Vermont Department of Health um in working suggest a public health language into the town plan and we did this and in our discussions they tend to take the view of things like access to services very broadly might be um access to being able to be around other people like being at a senior center it might be medical service it might be access to healthy food um or or something like that there are some uses again that if somebody came to you and said public health access to services you've got to sell me this allocation or I won't be able to build my bank right right we have a lot of access to to retail banking in town I think we're meeting that this this I think is a little bit okay okay yeah other questions there was a suggested motion if we're in agreement to to do that move to authorize the sale of up to 3750 gallons per day of wastewater treatment capacity to white caps ventures LLC under the category of encouraged specific development as established in the town's sewer allocation ordinance fiscal year 2022 attachment hey is there a second second sir discussion on the motion well I guess the only thing is I'll I'll concur with the with the experts that include I think that was the word include and further are the same implemented further are the same have the same meaning in this context any further discussion if not all those in favor of the motion say hi hi we have five thank you very much thank you thank you except for the whole meeting for this moving on thank you matt for February event permit for adam's farm tracking Tuesday here I speak briefly in this so this is under the new ordinance in effect in early June so second application the board has seen this is for adam's farms tracking Tuesday's event I think June 10th or so or early June it'll be the third year of this and first under this new temporary event permitting really consistent the last couple of years in their facility at the corner of old stage and mountain view road some food trucks some some music more acoustic variety we have some miniature golf plan too so I'm comfortable I know it's uh it's gone well the last couple years no no concerns out of staff level I had police and fire review it as well along with public works some police and fire just had a a couple brief comments that I've shared with the Adams and should the board wish to approve this that that would fall under your purview under the ordinance any questions for Erica the only question I had is I'm under the question of or the statement of arrangements for food and water and it says food trucks without any qualification of you know how many or anything and I'm just wondering if that's at all an issue upward is a concern um it hasn't been the last couple years I think they've had a system where they have I think maybe three or four and they have them spaced out the fire sheet provided guidance for um public safety for the food trucks yeah follow when it's setting up okay so there's no need to limit it feel we should need to limit it I don't believe so at this time if it became an issue um I would have a conversation and look to bring it back to the board at that point okay good so the 15 food trucks isn't working exactly yeah good all right I'm good with that if you look at the um the diagram the like the overhead picture that they had they've drawn in maybe five food trucks placement for five so and I've you know having attended this event I've never seen more than four or five there so thank you um just an observation is these types of events sometimes um there's their demise is their own success you know if you will it gets popular and as it gets more popular you need more food trucks you know well you know you can but I think Eric's answer answered answered my concern which is if it becomes an issue will we visit this is one of the events and things during COVID it kind of spurned staff's recognition the board to adopt ordinance for these um so there's more gives the town more control to regulate these and they've done a good job of controlling this over the past two years so yes what what Jeff said reminds me of what Yogi Vera said once about the restaurant it's like nobody goes there anymore it's too crowded so I'd be looking for a motion I'll move to approve a temporary event permit for Adam's farm trucking Tuesdays with conditions from town staff let's hear a second second it's only a discussion of the motion if not all those in favor of the motion say aye hi hi hi so we have five eyes on that we're up to the manager's report I'll be brief about the power question we always allow questions to be asked but I need to know that if somebody wants to raise their hand and speak so your your opportunity will be next meeting to next meeting because what we've done is reserved the first two meetings for education over the board anybody who's here to listen to it we've reserved the next meeting for an hour or so to listen to people who have objections or or good comments for yard and the the concept the Sarah green update in town fair was a was a great success I think between two and three hundred people stopped by was put on the screen so that well we'll look to make that an annual annual event here in early mayfield town and I want to share our highway form with Mark Russell is announced it's going to be retiring in July so Mark is that dedicated staff member for 27 years now certainly have a lot to recognize him the next couple months and versus started the processing it was coming of finding a successor to Mark so that'll be a be a role but works is working to fill and also share its national EMS week in our fire departments they're doing a number of information sharing through social media and on their website so he makes a check out good and other business there's a catering permit request yep this is a wedding at isham family barn it's on um june the fourth the carer is a sausage shack doing business as the beverage shack and it's a staff has no objections it's not allowed use for a wedding and this reports approval of this I just want to make sure I heard that right it's the sausage shack that's doing business as the beverage shack yep the business name is chocolate shack LLC okay if there's no questions and I'm looking for a moment so move is there a second second any discussion on the motion not was in favor of the motion say hi hi hi we have five high votes is there any other business to be brought forward tonight very none we are turned