It is 7.02, I'll call to order this meeting of the Library Select Board on February 19th. First item on the agenda is to approve the agenda. Make a motion to approve the agenda as presented. Second. Moved and seconded, any discussion? Hearing none, all in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed, any abstentions? All right, the agenda is approved as presented. The next item is the consent agenda with four consent items. Do I have a motion? I make a motion to approve the consent agenda as written. Second. All right, moved and seconded, any discussion? Hearing none, all in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed, any abstentions? All right, the consent agenda is approved as written. Next we have the public session. Anyone wishing to address anything not on the warned agenda is welcome to come up. I ask that you keep your comments to three minutes. Anything more than that, we'd be glad to put it on the agenda for a subsequent meeting. Online. Roger. Yeah. In the interest of having so many attendees, thank you all for being here. I will use public announcements to just note that our planning commission is having a public hearing tomorrow night at 6 p.m. at the Steel Community Room back at the municipal offices. It's on updates to our development bylaws for the area in Waterbury between the Winooski River and Interstate 89, including but not limited to where we're currently sitting in the downtown but also following that whole extent throughout town. This is the first of two public inputs. It's an opportunity to share, hear from the planning commission about the work they're doing and also provide input. There'll be another hearing on Thursday, March 14th, also at six at the Steel Community Room. They'll be recorded if you're not able to attend at those times and you can also provide feedback to the planning commission. It's on the banner on the homepage of the Waterbury BT website with all the maps and relevant materials. And I hope just as many folks will be out with me at 6 p.m. tomorrow. Is it also meant to be online participation? No, only in person. Okay, thank you. Did you just suggest that we could come up and speak at this point in reference to the armory issue? No, the armory issue is on the warned agenda. So anything not on the warned agenda and you will have an opportunity to come forward. All right, I would like to thank Martha and the planning commission for the work that they've done on that and I wish you a good meeting tomorrow. Thank you. All right, anyone else either here? We have about 50 people in the audience here. We have about 30 on the... 55. 55 keeps growing. 55 online. Anyone else wanna address anything not on the warned agenda? Next on the agenda, we have an update on the armory building. I'd like to welcome back Commissioner Chris Winters who addressed us approximately a month ago. And we've got Miranda Gray and Lily Sojourner. Is that right? All right. So I was gonna ask that you speak from the podium, but if that isn't gonna work for all of you, we can make other arrangements. Mr. Chairman, I could speak from the podium. There may be some questions that are more appropriate for either Miranda or Lily and maybe I could just call them up as needed or get to the audience that they can speak from here, whichever you prefer. Yeah, I think I'd prefer them to speak from the microphone. We've had some problems in the past with people not being able to hear. The microphone should be working. Again, I'd like to have Chris occupy the floor anyone that has comments will be given an opportunity to talk. We've got a good amount of time for this item until 8.30 p.m. All right. And Chris, just to get started, I think you did receive a letter from our town manager as well as from our representative, Teresa Wood. And I wanted to make sure that you received both those letters because we'd like you to address many of the items that were addressed in the letters. I'm happy to do that. Should I do that? Should we walk through the letter? Would that be the best way to do that or hit some high point? I don't know if you have any prepared remarks based on what you said and what you heard last time. You could start with that and then perhaps we could get into the letter. Okay. Thank you and thanks for having us back three weeks later. I do want to start off my remarks by saying I've heard a lot from a lot of people, a lot of you. I've read some of the things that have been posted online, published opinions, letters and articles. And one of the overall themes that I do keep hearing is that this feels rushed. And I think it feels rushed because it is rushed. We do have an urgent need and it's not just Waterbury and it's not even just Vermont. I think you can look around the state, you can look around the country and understand that we're facing unprecedented levels of homelessness, not just here in Waterbury, not just in Montpelier or Burlington or in other places in Vermont but in other surrounding states and across the country. We need more housing units. We need especially more affordable housing units and a more affordable housing market overall. Inflation has hit people really hard. Post COVID, a lot of the federal funding for poverty programs has dried up. People are really facing some tough times out there. And one of the things that we need to do is to help them be housed and a more affordable housing market overall is going to be one of the ways to get there. But that's going to take time. And as I said the last time I was here, we're trying to make some other options available in the meantime. It's kind of an all hands on deck moment across the state. And we are scrambling to put it mildly, to put together projects, to put together shelter for people who need it. This project here in Waterbury is just one part of that effort. We are engaged across the state. And there's a lot of concern that why are you choosing Waterbury, why are you bringing this here? We don't have services here. We've never had a shelter here. Why is this coming to Waterbury? We are trying really hard across the state, Bennington, Brattleboro, Rutland, Berry, Montpelier, Burlington, St. Albans, Hyde Park. These are all places where we have shelters. I'm sorry? All right, excuse me. I didn't hear what you said. They have police forces. Okay. And don't have- Hyde Park, St. John's Berry, Hartford, Springfield, Littleberry, these are all places where we're trying to stand up shelters, or we have stood up shelters. We know that this is not ideal to the person's point here. You don't have a police force. It's not located right next to services. You don't have a food bank. You don't have a soup kitchen. It is not ideal, I'll admit that. We prefer more permanent solutions that are proposed and run by local community providers. That's the ideal. But despite our outreach over the last year to try to push some of these other providers to step forward, we've seen an increase of about 80 new shelter beds across the state in the last year, and we're proposing about 100 more that we think will come online in the next year. So that's 180 more to about 450 that we had across the state. So we're moving very quickly to try to get extra capacity up and running. But meanwhile, we're using the Hotel Motel Program that I think many of you are familiar with. We use 1,600 rooms across the state in the Hotel Motel Program. And as of last June, a number of folks who were considered vulnerable or in catastrophic situations had their stays in those hotels extended by the legislature and signed by the governor from June until April 1st. So that's been our target. It's trying to get some additional shelter capacity stood up on April 1st. And so Waterbury wasn't our first choice. I don't think it was our second choice in central Vermont but we thought we had something it fell through. We thought we had something else it fell through. So we are moving very, very quickly to get this extra capacity online for people who need a roof over their heads. So it's not a perfect plan. It's not our first choice. It's probably not someone else's first choice to have to stay in the Armory as opposed to a non-congregant shelter or even a hotel room. But we have to make some other options work and we want this to be successful not just for the people that we're trying to help but for the communities we're working in. It's not just about Waterbury. We don't want this to fail. We have to be able to site shelters in other towns across the state. So if this goes poorly, that's a black mark on the state to be able to go and do it again somewhere else. And we're going to need to be doing this across the state over the next couple of years until we can get more traditional shelter beds, until we can get more affordable housing and have less people unsheltered and needing a roof over their heads. So that and to speak to the timelines and other, I think, concern that people have. I've described this as a three-month project. I've described this as temporary. Our goal has always been April 1st to July 1st, but the legislature might move this deadline. There's some work happening in the legislature right now that may extend hotel stays, that may change funding. But the bottom line is we still need more shelter and we still need options other than hotels. So not knowing what the legislature might do or the budget that we might have to work with or how many hotel beds or new beds in other forms are gonna be coming online. April 1st, I'll say is not a hard and fast date at this point. We're not sure that's gonna be, but we do know that we need more temporary shelter capacity and we've been trying to get this up for April 1st to July 1st and the Armory was a property that was available to us. We could fit it up relatively cheaply. And speaking of cost, this is another thing, another one of the questions in Tom Lights' letter. It is going to be really expensive to operate the Armory. It's gonna be more per night than a hotel. And a lot of people have said look at the purchase price and look at the number of nights. I would encourage you not to look at the purchase price because that's an asset for the state and the buildings in general services commissioner has said to me, there may be other uses, there will be other state uses for it. So that's an asset going forward. So as far as this temporary shelter plan, I wouldn't count the cost of purchase in the overall cost of that. It's the operational cost, which is the staffing, which is bringing in food, which could be transportation, it could be security. All of those costs are the things that go into the costs of running a shelter at the Armory. And that does make it an expensive project. And so I think that's another reason why this is not going to be a long-term, ongoing operation at the Armory because it is more expensive than hotels and hotels. But we do need that option. We do need that bridge for now. Shelter management, there've been a lot of questions about that. How is this going to be operated? The interim director of the office of economic opportunity, Lilly. So Jernar is here to answer your questions about how these shelters are typically run. There's still a lot of experience working with other shelter providers across the state, sort of rules they follow, the standards they have. There's been a lot of concern that this might be just an overnight shelter. And so people will be kicked out during the day. Our plan is to operate that as a 24-7 shelter so they can stay in. But let's be honest, these are individuals with freedom of choice and freedom of movement. And so they may go outside for a while. They may wanna go to the park. They may wanna go to the grocery store. So that there will be people coming in and out of the Armory, but we're not forcing them out during the day. They can stay in the Armory during the day. The shelter management itself is going to be overseen by the state. We are having to contract with an outside provider. Has been some question about whether we could get a local provider to do that. We're in a conversation with a local provider to run it, someone who knows Vermont better, who knows how to run a shelter, who might be familiar with Central Vermont. And then we may also hire a state physician. But our plan is to have a shelter operator there in a single day in addition to the outside provider that we're looking at contracting with. We're still reviewing bids. We have four, I think, interested providers who would run that shelter. We're looking at at least two positions, 24-7, plus other staff on site during the day, case managers, services. That's another question that was in Mr. Light's letter. What kind of services are folks gonna get at this shelter? The people we are placing, we would plan to place in this shelter are those we've been working with in this hotel motel program. They're in this cohort that's been there since June 30th and are scheduled to exit April 1st if there's not some other action by the legislature. These are people we know. These are people who've been relatively stable in the hotel program.   We have case managers who've been working with them, housing navigators who've been working with them. So they are already connected to services that are planning to be to continue to connect those folks to services and hopefully move them out of this shelter into something more permanent. That's been the goal for these folks the whole time. And we will try to assist them if we can. Another question was, is there what's your discharge procedures? So concerned that if someone breaks the rules at the armory shelter, we just pick them out and lock the door behind them and say good luck. We try to assist them. The standards of a shelter would be to try to assist them if we can. Try to assist them with other services to try to not exit someone without a plan. But again, being completely honest, if they are a danger to someone else in the shelter, if they're causing a lot of disruption and making it impossible for the other people who are trying to stay there, we will call law enforcement. So I know that's another question that you all have had is the impact on law enforcement. And there will be times that that'll happen. It doesn't happen a lot from our experience, from Lilly's experience and seeing other shelters. This is not the same as a low barrier shelter where someone could walk in off the street. They might be using substances. They accept all comers. There's a few shelters like that across the state. This is not that. These are folks who've been in the hotel motel program. They're relatively stable. They are going to live by the rules of the shelter as determined by the provider as overseen by the state. So absolutely no guarantees that there won't ever be a problem. Try living in it with 40 roommates and see if anything, nothing ever goes wrong. But we are fairly confident that it's not gonna be significant disruption given the people that we're putting in there. I'm just trying to think of other things, Tom, from the letter that I should touch on. I haven't walked, I'm just trying to do this sort of off the top of my head here. Not going to read your letter. As far as law enforcement goes, we have been in touch with our commissioner of the Department of Public Safety is talking with the Vermont State Police. I know the local Berlin unit is aware of this project, but I don't have anything more to report on conversations with law enforcement yet. It's really, as I said, hard to know how often law enforcement would be needed, but with most shelters, it's not a lot. I know that we can impact on first responders and emergency services. We understand that could create more calls for your volunteer ambulance service. I do have an email from your emergency services ambulance service, and I do need to follow up to make the connection there. Again, our group of people that we would be placing there are connected through the VCCI nurses, the Vermont Chronic Care Initiative nurses. So as part of their case management plan, they do have some connection to healthcare. So hopefully they're following that sort of medical plan and already have that in place. And so I think that would limit the number of emergency calls that we might get. But again, as I said, these were not placing families with children there. We are looking at a large number of people in the cohort who are either elderly, 60 years of age or older, or have disabilities. So with that, obviously come some medical complications at times, and so it would be an additional stressor on your local first responders. I know there is some concern about the location being in proximity to school. And we know that, of course, know that the elementary school is across the river and through the woods right there. And with insight of the armory, I can totally understand where this concern comes from. I can actually remember when my kids were in elementary school in the New State Hospital was being cited within a model of the elementary school. And there were a lot of folks who were really, really concerned and upset about that. Lily reminded me, she's also a Berlin resident, that when that sighting was taking place, some folks from Waterbury actually came and spoke to the select board and spoke to the town resident saying, it's gonna be all right. There aren't a lot of problems that go along with the state hospital. People become a part of your community. There's an issue from time to time, but it really is not something that people should have a lot of fear about. So we are happy to connect with the school to make sure that their concerns are addressed, that there's awareness there. And I understand that there may be some kids that are in that area down around the river and in the fields down below the armory. What are your classes for that? So it's good to be aware of that. The folks who are in the armory they are likely to be older folks. They're likely to be disabled folks. They're likely to be a lot like you and me. There was some concern about walk-ups to the armory and maybe this becoming a magnet for people who are experiencing homelessness coming here thinking they could get shelter. Our plans are for this to be a referral service out of the hotel. So there aren't any walk-ins or walk-ups. I think to that extent, the location and distance is an advantage or a natural deterrent. But we can't say that that won't happen. Of course, someone could show up and we would do our best to assist them in finding other shelter. But this is not going to be a walk-in. We don't want to encourage people to come here thinking that they can get it back for the night. Transportation, I guess, is the last thing that I'll address and I'm sure I've missed some things, Tom. And so we'll have lots of questions into it. But part of our planning process is determining if we'll provide it or if we'll get a stop on the bus line. Some shelters actually purchase a van and shuttle people to the appointments that they have if they don't have transportation of their own. So that's still something that's in process. I guess just closing before we start taking questions or yield some additional questions that I might have missed from Tom's letter is just to understand that we want this to work. It's my hope that this is a project, a temporary project that could be welcomed by the community. That the folks who are here who might go for a walk, might go to groceries, might go to the parks, might go to the library, could be welcomed by the community and accepted and respected as individuals and even offered some help if that's something that they were interested in. You're very fortunate to have two representatives who are the chairs for the housing committee and for the human services committee that's been dealing with homelessness. And they had a lot of experience with this and a lot of knowledge and they hear from the people directly who are affected by this. And Representative Wood did something last week and had a number of folks in her committee on Friday who are living in hotels and heard directly from their experiences. I really recommend you watch that. I watched it over the weekend. These are people I had spoken to before from a visit to the government. Each one of them has a compelling story of hardship and they're trying to get to a better place in their lives with more permanent housing. And I really hope that with a little work that this shelter site, while again it's not ideal and it's not something that's going to be long term would be a temporary stop for some of these folks and get them to that next step for permanent housing. I know this is asking a lot of your community and I know you have a lot of concerns about it. I didn't get into this work and I don't think Lily or Miranda did either just for the paycheck or just to not have something like this succeed. So we're going to do our damnedest to make sure that the community is understanding what we're trying to do is a part of the solution. And if you have concerns, we want to try to address them. We want to try to make this work. So I appreciate you all being out here tonight. I know you're going to have some hard questions for me. I'll answer them the best I can. But I really hope that you can think about this for a moment and how Waterbury can be a part of the solution. It's something that's going to take all of us and it's going to take some time before we get back to a place where we don't have this level of homelessness in Vermont. Thanks. Chris, thank you. I'm going to start with questions from the select board and our town manager and then we'll open it up to a larger audience. I have a question. When I was in college, I worked at Pine Street in the home of the man in Boston. Probably the largest congregate shelter in New England. And as you've stated yourself, it's not an ideal situation. And I'm wondering why you abandoned pursuing the O'Connor Lodge, which is set up for lodging. And apparently it was interested in working with you. As opposed to trying to transform the place of it. It was built to store ordinance, not human beings. I don't want to speak for the local provider there in Montpelier because they're doing a lot of great work and they have a lot of irons in the fire. But it's my understanding that we thought we were going through that. It's my understanding that their board voted against it because it was going to stretch the organization too thin and that they wanted something longer term than I think the 12 months that we were, six months that we were proposing. In addition, the hotel owner was seeking a pretty steep rate still, less than what he's charging the state right now, but still somewhat steep rate. We would have loved to have gone forward with that. We didn't abandon it. It was the provider was not able to make it work. Other questions? Mike. Chris, is the state willing to sign an agreement that this is going to be a 90-day proposal, not longer? You know, I think we could look at that. I would be hesitant to lock into 90 days, which is what I've said before. It might not start on April 1st. If we get to 90 days, I would love to come back and see how it's going. Like, is this, are there no problems? Is this going great? Sure, let's keep it going. But if not, then we shouldn't continue it if it's causing problems for the town. There are those limitations in funding and limitations in workforce that I think is going to keep us from going much longer than that. But I can't say to you today it's absolutely only going to be 90 days. Chris, that's the skepticism within the community. I know I've worked in public service my whole life too. And I just, you get faced with those questions. And sometimes, you know, as we have said before, we're a very welcoming community. But yes, we would want some sort of agreement. Yes, it would be re-looked at after 90 days or something of that nature. And then, you know, both sides might have, you know, say, yeah, we think this is working good, but we have said in the past, that's an ideal place for long-term, affordable housing versus, you know, a shelter. I understand that. Okay. My question is you referenced more affordable housing four times. And my question is not what the legislature is doing about affordable housing, what is the administration doing about it? The legislature has offered to roll back parts of Act 250 and the administration has threatened to veto it. What is the Scott administration doing about affordable housing? If this is their solution, it's temporary shelters, that's not a solution to affordable housing. I'm not the housing expert here, but I think you might be mischaracterizing that the legislature is offering to roll back Act 250 in the administration. I didn't say in its entirety, right? There's, you know. So there are some proposals from the administration to do regulatory reform, tax policy, Act 250, local zoning reforms to encourage affordable housing. That is part of the strategy. And some investments in housing and the legislature has a whole lot of other ideas as well. And I think there's something called the Be Home Bill that's in the Senate Economic Development Committee that has a number of those reforms that has pretty significant support from both the administration and from Republican and Democratic senators. Sure, thank you. Any other questions for the board? Alyssa. Thank you for being here. How do you envision communicating with the town moving forward? I guess I would just say you referenced it as Mr. Light's letter, and Tom didn't write it as our full-time staff, but it was supposed to be on behalf of the select board in the community. And I guess I would say from three weeks ago, it feels to me like we're in some of the similar places around looking into transportation, looking at four potential out-of-state providers. Again, it feels like we're in this unusual in between. And personally, I really want to be in a place to really support you in helping to support the Vermonters in need of this service and helping to encourage our community members to be supportive, but I'm not feeling like I have answers I can point to in that regard. So how do you envision getting that information moving forward? Sure, I'm in regular contact with Tom. I assume it was his letter and his name at the bottom. Oh, yeah. But I understand it's a compilation of a lot of the questions that have come forward, including from Representative Blue, Representative Stevens, and other community members. And I've received a number, additionally, like directly to me. It's been three weeks since I was here last, and as I said, this is very fast moving. We are close to a decision on a provider. We did get those four proposals, and they vary quite a bit in cost and the amount of service provided. So we hope to be able to make a decision on that very soon. And as soon as we do, as soon as we get new information, we do update through Tom. If you all want to have a different method of communication, you can do that too. But as things are planned and as these things kind of sort of crystallize, we're happy to keep the town informed and involve the town in those decisions that directly impact you all, and where we could use some of the town's perspective. So I'm all for open communication and decision-making with Tom or with others as we go, and happy to keep the board informed as some of these decisions are made. But it's, we've got about six weeks, even last week before April 1st, and again, that date may move, but as we make, as we learn new things, as we make decisions, we're happy to definitely keep you all involved in that. Jenny. Oh, do you have another one? Well, I guess I would say, I'm not trying to be selfish as an individual board member and just note that we have, I would CC down the communication from the ambulance and just hope that we would be trying to proactively work with them to get answers in the interest of all involved. Again, the goal being the success for folks in the program and the community as a whole, and it just feels like responsiveness to that is really important. So as we acknowledge, since that hasn't happened yet, that feels paramount to moving forward. Thank you. I have a similar comment, and then a question maybe that you too could help with. My goal is aligned with Alyssa's being successful in all the ways, and also working hard to lower the heat in the conversations. People care deeply for lots of different reasons and in lots of different ways, and some reactions are in response to feeling manipulated and or lied to sound a little bit extreme, but people feel really in the dark and they feel like they're getting fed canned responses that don't feel authentic, and then lots of people react really distrustfully to that. And so my request is you said, and you were candid in saying the goal is 90 days and I can't make a promise, and you said that three weeks ago, but today the answer is a little different. My goal is 90 days and then we'll see how it's going. And that felt very different than it did three weeks ago, and I am personally not angry about that. That makes sense. I had a suspicion that was it all along, but I think when people feel that their experience and their words are not matching up, it gets very heated, and I would love to try to cool that because we want to be good partners just like with the state complex here. We want to be supportive and work together, but at some point that desire diminishes a little bit. And so I'm sorry that was a long winded, but I want our constituents to hear that. We understand that, and I want that to be heard with your folks as well. And then the question I have is, I know you're still working on the provider, but maybe people who have been there, I think a lot of the questions are, what happens there with the operators? What goes on? How do we feel safe? How do these people get taken care of? So as much information as we can have without that actual operator here, I think would be really helpful. Do you want to say something about the shelter? I don't have a shelter, generally not. I'm going to put Lily on the side, sorry. But she doesn't have a lot of experience with shelters. And some of you in this room obviously do as well. To try to give you just a general sense of how a congregate shelter is run, what might go on there during the day, what sort of services might be provided, what the intake might look like. Sure, thank you. Hi, I'm Lily. So I'm joined by the Office of Economic Opportunity. We provide grants to our network of community shelters across the state. And it's a very diverse network, so it's hard to kind of speak definitively or with a single answer, but they have a flow for the day. So what time are people getting up? Are there morning meals? Are there expectations of what folks are doing during the day? Trying to maintain sort of a safe environment so if there's a that maybe there's more daytime activities happening? Are they having providers come in and out to run certain groups like a recovery group? Those things are all scheduled. Meal times and then usually having some times at night that are like, okay, we're winding down for the night and we're kind of gonna have sort of an ultimate lights out time. So times during the day that it's open, people can, as Commissioner shared, go in and out, they're free to kind of move around. But then at other times, okay, this is when you have to be back. This is when we're gonna wrap up for the night. This is unique in that the referrals are coming solely from economic services, as the commissioner mentioned, these are folks. So there's not necessarily like a, some shelters offer 24-7 intake where you have to be in at certain hours and that's just not at play as currently conceived because it is referrals through economic services from people who are in the program. So that would be much more controlled than again people who are known and can be referred from that program. I don't think that answers your question. I don't think you can, it's helpful to know that feel like we had no idea that we're like maybe meal times or lights out times. Like that's, it's, we have no idea what is gonna go on. And so that's, it's helpful to have a concept. But I think until there's an operator, we won't, we still won't know. Yeah, I think people have suggestions about what would be helpful or questions about that. You know, I think those are things that we can take feedback on and work with because we're gonna be working very closely with the provider to put in place systems that, you know, again, hopefully work for everybody who's involved. Tom, do you have any follow-up questions? I have a question again about the 90-day timeline. I notice a lot of moving parts. When you presented three weeks ago. Can you speak up? Can you speak up? Sure, so I have a question about the timeline again. When you presented three weeks ago to my recollection, you said there were 1,600 families in the hotel and motel program, something like 2,300 individuals. You said today there's, you're hoping for another 100 shelter beds to come online this year. And I know you're trying to secure hotels permanently as part of that. And I know the legislature's in section and there's a lot of moving parts, but it just strikes me that no matter how much success you have, you're likely to have a pretty large cohort of homeless individuals for way beyond the 90 days. And I think if you are wildly successful in your job, probably for way beyond a year. So again, can you just enunciate on maybe the broader strategy and how you really think you could wind this down because it just based on those numbers, it strikes me as a pretty difficult task. Yeah, thanks. That's my job. I appreciate it. Trying to do as much as we can with what we have. In addition to Waterbury, there are a couple of other temporary shelter options that we're pursuing. One is 20 units in Brattleboro. We're looking at the purchase of a hotel in temporary use as a state or hotel in Bennington. We're looking at mobile sites on trailer beds or Rutland and possibly Burlington. And again, these are all within a certain budget that we have and a certain timeline that we're looking at that may move. But the broader strategy is, one, trying to convert some hotels and motels, which we really have a hard time getting those folks to come to the table, but that's, we're being more successful in that. Do you have a price cap proposed by the legislature? And trying to show that we can, there are some other options to the hotels and motels out there. Those are some of the quick gains that we could have as if we were to be able to purchase something like an Econolodge or do a lease agreement that's different than working with the hotels and motels because we're currently paying over $130 a night. And that's taxpayer money. It could be used in a better way if we were paying a lot less or doing it through a lease negotiation. The other part of this is the new units, the new shelter beds. It's gonna take a lot of heat, all of those things online. We don't know how fast that's gonna happen. And that'll depend on some of the housing reforms, some of the Act 250 reforms, some of the local zoning reforms and whether we can encourage development to get more units in the pipeline. Hopefully more affordable units are a big part of that. And again, that depends on legislative action and administration strategy and all those things as well. So that's the bigger picture, but you are absolutely correct that we are going to continue to fall for. We are not going to be able to house everyone. We never have. And so it's in our faces, we see it in campments. We see it on the street more now than we ever have before. So this is why Waterbury is the armory is one piece of that strategy, an imperfect piece, but a temporary bridge to where we get to where there is more affordable housing. There are more traditional shelter beds online with connected services and run by local community providers in places where it makes a lot more sense. Sure. And this may be a question better for William Miranda. Chris, you had mentioned that the individuals you're targeting for the armory have essentially been in your program for a number of months. I think you said six months. Would you anticipate that the 40 individuals brought to the armory would essentially remain there for the duration, or would you anticipate a fair amount of turnover? So our goal is to move them out of there as quickly as possible, but to keep those beds filled. So to cycle people through to more permanent solutions. We started in June with this cohort. So these were folks who were already in the hotel motel system under them because they were vulnerable and met one of the eligibility categories. Because they were there on June 1st, they were allowed to stay there. So they may have been there for months even before that. So we've been working with that group. It was almost 1,300 households when it started. We're now at about 580, correct? So a lot of those folks have found permanent housing. They've found they moved away or lots of things have happened to those folks. They aren't required to tell us but we've been assisting them for these last six months more intensely with case management, housing navigation services trying to get them connected. That's the same approach we would take for the folks here in the armory proposal. And we would hope that we can bring them in, intensely case managed, move them out, bring in someone else and just keep it going. Okay. My question is, Chris. So I guess I'm being a little speculative here but if this program goes the way of the hotel motel program which wasn't supposed to last as long as it has. And we end up with the shelter program for as long as the motel program has survived. Is there a stop gap after a shelter or is this the stop gap between being housed and not being housed? I'm not sure they understand your question but there are a lot of different types of housing, transitional housing, supportive housing, really can speak to some of those. We have a lot of different programs to try to tailor the support that we give someone who might be going through unsheltered homelessness. So there's our traditional shelter system, there's the motel system, there's supportive housing. Billy, do you want to speak to any of the other programs? We do a lot of rapid rehousing. We do voucher programs to help people stay where they are, the people who are on the edge of homelessness. It's just a really big network of systems and providers there and supports to try to keep people out of homelessness, divert them from it or get them rapidly back into rehousing. So this is one very, again, kind of a small piece compared to the bigger picture of housing and homelessness. Thank you. I'd like to thank everyone for being patient. I know a lot of you do have questions. I'm going to suggest those in the room that want to ask a question get in line and come this way and we'll take you one at a time. And then we'll also take people that are want to ask questions online. So I'm going to come straight over here. What's your name? Thank you. I'm waiting for this. Where's the timing? Yeah. I'm sorry, your name? When you're short. Overwilded. Barbara? Would you mind just one second? I just want to go over the expectations before we get started, which in general is please say your name before you start. And then we're going to try to keep everybody to two minutes. So you'll keep the clock? Thank you. Thanks, Barbara. Sorry to interrupt you. That's all right. No problem. Work for government. Two questions. What's your name? She's my name. We don't know you. You don't need that, do you? Yeah. Barbara Walton. Thank you. Sorry about that. I have two questions. So what you're saying, Chris, is this is a permanent structure that you're building. So at the end of three months, excuse me, you will be leaving that building and the government has spent thousands of dollars getting it ready for that three months. Is that correct? So the fit up that's happening now is for long term use for any use. The shelter piece of it is just temporary partitions on the inside and use of some of the offices that are around the outside. And there is a modification to the bathrooms that's happening to. So sprinklering, fire code, bathrooms. But the shelter piece of it is just temporary partitions in that big open space. Yeah, I know that. But people stay longer than three months. And the other thing is, is there you're going to leave? It just amazes me the amount of money that's being spent. Not that homeless people don't deserve this and have compassion and empathy for them.  And so you're just going to have offices in that. I've worked for government. And there isn't any place where I can say that when they spend that kind of money, they don't give it up. They don't let it sit. Yeah, it's permanent. So what the BGS commissioner has said, and I didn't have this the last time I was here three weeks ago, but she has testified in committee that there are a lot of other state uses as a warehouse, as building something else up there. Lots of uses beyond this temp. It's not, this is a very temporary partitions on the inside for the shelter space. It's plywood, basically. All right, and the other second question is at last meeting, a lady got up and seemed to be very knowledgeable and said that for a population of 4,000 like we are, that the recommendation would not be for 40 and 50 people in a shelter, but more like 15 or 16, something like that. Why are we having so many based upon the fact that there are studies saying that 4,000 is about the residents and then whatever this formula is, you would then say, OK, we can handle 15. I mean, why is 40, 50 people? I think 40 is what can reasonably fit in there and then kind of the economies of the staffing patterns and things like that. It would be a lot more expensive per person if we did 20 instead of 40. And we've also seen that a 40-person shelter, I think, is the maximum size that you would want, especially in terms of a congregate shelter. Well, I'm kind of hesitant about it, really, quite hesitant, to be honest. I appreciate you letting me ask the questions. Thank you, Barbara. Sally? Sally Dillon, two things. One, is it true that Vermont State College and my player is for sale? That's a dorm setting. That would be a perfect place. It's on our list. We've looked at it. And secondly, is Vermont State College for sale and non-pillier? They already have dorm rooms. They have facilities. They have services. They have full-time public safety. I just think it would be a great place for it. I just say that we've looked at a very, very long list of buildings across the state. You've been scouring for possible locations. And secondly, the people that are currently at the Hilltot since July 1st, are those ones that have met this criteria for the disabled or whatever? Is that the people that are there? That could be some of them. There are other motels that we use in the very area as well. OK. But as far as everyone that's at the Hilltot has met this criteria. Is that correct? I can't say that that is correct. I would need to see because we have people move in and out. So that means there could be a room that is open. And someone could have moved in there and everyone play other two programs. Because I spoke with Berlin PD with their permission, the amount of times since July 1st that they've been to the Hilltot, 169 cases plus 59 directed patrol, which means they go there and actually walk the halls and interact with people to try to deter crime. 169 halls in 182 days is a lot. And I think it's more than our town can handle. And that doesn't count what happens at all the other businesses involving some of those people. I just think they're not as cream of the crop. And I get there are some people that are good people that are there. But I just think it's going to be a lot in our law enforcement. Thank you. Can I just put you up for that? In the hotel and motel program, it's not run by a shelter provider. There aren't the same rules that we would have. There's not the same control. The state doesn't have a lot of control over the hotel and motel program. We have seen that people who are in that program in the hotels often are victimized by drug dealers, human traffickers, others who move into the hotel or are attracted to the hotel. And that's not just hotels. That's any town. That's any large apartment complex. So I think it's not a valid comparison. There are additional law enforcement issues. But it's not daily like you might have heard from Berlin. I'm not familiar with those stats myself. I live in Berlin. I understand that there were a lot of issues with the hotel. But this shelter would not be anything like the hotel. Chris, can you define what referral means? Because you've used that a couple times, that these are going to be referrals. What constitutes a referral? Yeah, so the grant that is the Deputy Commissioner of Economic Services. And it's an economic benefit to our emergency housing program for people who offer a shelter first. So shelter bed first. And if there are no shelters available, we can get a hotel room. And so the referral would come from the state, from Economic Services. And these are folks who are in the hotel motel program. These are the people we are trying to actively target and help. We've already been working with them. And so they would be the ones that we would refer to the armory. So referral rather than people walking up or walking off the street and being allowed a shelter bed there. Thanks, Chris. Tamatha Thomas, you have a hand up online. Hi, good evening, Roger and everyone. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak. I just have a quick comment as someone who lives along the road to the armory that a lot of times people don't realize how badly we flood. And that when we flood, we become an island. And you noted that these folks will be vulnerable, disabled folks. And I would just want to make sure that whoever operates this shelter understands the need for evacuation in the case of flooding, especially because no emergency will be able to get in and out or up and down that road. Food, nothing. So I would just want to make sure that they're taken care of in that way. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, really appreciate that comment. We have moved in our Vermont Emergency Management partners to make sure we have an evacuation plan and a flooding plan in place for the use of this shelter. Excellent. No, thank you. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Danny. My first question is I'm confused because you said referral from the hotels, but then you said you don't have any oversight of the hotels and all the terrible things that happen there. You have no, like I'm confused by those pieces of information. Danny, Elizabeth. Yeah, I could try, you want me to clarify for a few minutes? Yeah, okay. Just go ahead and take the microphone. Yeah. So we don't have any control over how the hotels are run. We pay for rooms and then it's up to the rules of the hotel as to how they've run their operation. Okay, so you said people that haven't been, they haven't been kicked out of the hotels, but you said you have no oversight of the rules. So how do you know whether they've been kicked out or not? Yeah, so they're still in the hotels. We do track that. Who has about or to us, if they get exited, we find out. Maybe they were disruptive. Maybe they, you know, long-term involvement, something like that. They do get exited from the hotels and then they're no longer qualified for what we call the June cohort. So that's part of that 1,300 households that are now down to under 600 are people who have been exited for some reason. So the people who are still in there have been laid by the rules, have been engaged with case management. That's another requirement.  We have no oversight over how the hotels run the hotels. You want further clarification? Yeah. Sure, happy to. So the motels are in constant communication with economic services. And so it is if someone is being exited, they let economic services know the reason why. And then we do have rules about whether or not someone's going to still be able to have housing somewhere else, or if they have a period of ineligibility, which would be 30 days, because they have done something that is more egregious than we need to have them have a work. Okay, cool. Great, all right. Sorry, that just came out because I was confused. I, Waterbury is an amazing town and we help people and we want this to work, but there are a lot of unknowns. So, and we very much appreciate that you're helping lots of other communities, but I would love it if you just talked about Waterbury because cool that you're doing stuff other places, we want to know about Waterbury. Anyway, also the providers, are they for-profit providers or non-profit providers? You've got four providers, are they? Yeah, I think it's a combination might be some that are non-profit, some that are for-profit. Okay. And I will just say, I brought up the other towns because I have them and think like, why are you doing this to Waterbury? You're not the only ones doing this to Waterbury. We are trying across the city. Awesome, excellent. Okay, and then how will or will they, the profit or non-profit providers communicate with our town? So how are we going to be able to let them know yet it's working or no, it's not? Are they only going to communicate with you guys then you guys are going to communicate with us or how is that communication going to happen? So I do think that for this to be, to happen in the most effective way, the provider also has to have a relationship with the town. So I think the providers once chosen would need to meet with the town, help them understand the community, understand what your concerns are and hopefully be able to address the questions and concerns that you have as a provider plus state oversight to make sure that that's happened. Cool, so hopefully you'll pick that person quick. So we have time to do that. All right, and last thing, is there going to be a kitchen or how are meals going to be provided? We're looking at having meals brought in just, and so right now we're doing this in five minutes to just see what that would look like. So somebody will truck in meals. Yes. Man, he's been getting a hold. Okay, thank you. I'm all ready. I'll recognize Whitney Aldrich online. Whitney, are you there? Thanks. Yeah, thanks Roger and thanks for coming back and give us more information about this program. One question I have is similar to a question that just came up about metrics. I guess my question is how and who will be determining if this is a success and if it's a longer term program and how is it determined if it's not a success? Like what are the metrics that are being used to adjust and how do we check in and recalibrate things needed? That's a really great question. I think some of the metrics of... Yes, the little house is fine. Thank you. I think some of the metrics of success is are people finding housing? Are they healthy? Are they stable? If we're in this type of scenario, if we're able to move more people through than we are in the hotel and motel program, I think that's an indication of success. I think some indications that it's not a success will be if the town is experiencing problems. I have no doubt that we will hear if there are some issues with the shelter. And so we'll be listening closely to the town on that and we'll be monitoring our provider and our metrics as far as people moving into more permanent housing situations as a measure of success. Thank you. That's not it. Hello, my name is Krista Valich. So my basic question, as you're describing it, you're looking for a Band-Aid. There's factors that aren't under your control. You can't just choose to extend the hotel program or whatever. So you're looking for a Band-Aid that's about 90 days-ish, plus or minus. What is it that you think you can accomplish in 90 or 120 or 150 days that is going to eliminate the need for the stop-gap solution? Yeah, I don't think we eliminated the need in 90 days. I think it's that simple. What we were trying to do, what we have been trying to do is that when the cohort time ends on April 1st that we have additional shelter available for when people are exited from hotels. And that might change. What we know is happening right now is we're trying to negotiate lower room rates with hotelists and a number of them are saying, forget it, we're crowded here. And that means additional families exited from hotels. So we're trying to put together at least something in the colder spring months to the summer for folks who might be at the motels in March, April, May. It is a short-term solution. It's not perfect. None of these things that we're proposing are ideal. But we're trying to create additional shelter for people who do it during the short term. And this was one property that was available to us and one of many, many solutions that we're trying. Do you have any more specifics on, like, because it's just what are the next things? How do we help get to that? What are the next things that you're trying to do? There are a lot of things and they're very much undetermined with how successful they will be. There's other shelter beds, there's purchase of hotels and motels, there's lease agreements, there's conversions, there's new housing units coming online. Burlington with more housing units is actually having quite a bit of success in moving people out of hotels and into the affordable housing units that are coming available, but you need units. So I think it's yet to be seen how quickly those units can be built given some of the proposals in the way that's urgent. That might speed things up some. But I'm not going to argue with you when you say this is a mandate on what's a pretty big moment that we're trying to deal with. All right, thank you. I'll recognize Pam Lampson online. Hi, at the previous meeting I know Chris had said that he didn't feel there was any permits for the town that were going to be needed, but even just with personal experience with the Development Review Board and maybe this is more of a question for Tom, what is the status of that? Is there going to be a change of use permit? What needs to be done as far as town permitting? Our position is they need a change of use permit. I understand they have a different position. I believe they have until Friday to essentially file an appeal to our initial decision and from there the DRB follows its standard legal process. Once the state files their appeal letter, the DRB will have 60 days to have a hearing provided that hearing is completed in one meeting. They would then have 45 days to issue a decision. And I don't have any knowledge but beyond that and of our buildings and general services department and legal department I guess are handling the permitting incident and are working with the town on that. And that is standard process for anyone who needs a permit. So essentially that puts it well beyond that April 1st deadline that they were hoping for, which is fine with the end just curious on the dates. It doesn't, that doesn't calculate to their April 1st deadline. So I'm just kind of curious on that. Just to be clear, the DRB would have 60 days to schedule a hearing that is a maximum. They can do it faster. They would have 45 days to issue a decision that is also a maximum. Thanks. Chris. Thanks Chris again, many of you know me, some of you don't probably. Before I start, I'd like to say thanks Danny for your comments earlier. So we've, there's been a lot of comments here tonight about kicking these problems into somebody else's lap. This is nothing short of an epidemic. It's been a poison pill to a lot of communities. I can't quite understand why we continue to address the consequence of a problem as opposed to the cause. In every aspect of many of the issues that we face today, we're always dealing with reactionary, the consequences of an issue and we're reactionary to it. By the time we get to it, as you've seen tonight, they're trying to inform us of a lot of unknowns, but one thing that we do know if anybody's bothered to pay attention is somebody said the other night at the last meeting, these are our brothers and sisters. Yes, they are, and I feel for them. What got them in the situation that they're in? And if you look, we're supposed to take them into our lives and help them. Yes, you're right. But I disagree with the way that some of them, some of the help is being handed out. Other communities are starting to get really concerned about this same issue, the drug issue, the homeless. I know they've been saying, well, these people, many of them are good people, and would say they probably are, they're not necessarily hooked on drugs, some may be, some are not. I lost a cousin who was my best friend, like a brother to me, two years ago in May. He'll cocaine fentanyl, overdose. Half a mile from my house, Marbury Center. Christy, you only have 10 seconds left. That's unfortunate. If these people, if drug dealers, if these people, where do they get their drugs, if they are on drugs? And are they coming, or would they be coming into town to do it? And is that bringing more drug dealers in and more of the same problem? No, it's not. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Christy, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Oh, other Chris. I was just saying that people who are experiencing homelessness are complicated individuals, just like you and me. Some of them have substance use issues. Some of them have mental health issues. Some of them have physical health issues. They've often experienced trauma in their lives, but that's not to say that they should not be accountable for their lives and for their actions. So drug use in a shelter is not tolerated. In this armory shelter, as it's going to be operated, there's not going to be dealing happening on this site, as you might find in some hotels and motels, unfortunately, or apartment complexes or neighborhoods. So I do think this is a slightly different situation. It's not to say that folks here in this, in the hotel motel program currently or in the armory aren't going to have complex mental health substance use and other issues to have to deal with. That's why we wrap them in services. That's why we have case management. That's why we do our best to get them stable and into more permanent housing. Roger, Roger. Just for a moment. I said it at our last gathering over this issue and I'll reiterate, when I arrived in Waterbury, I was homeless. This is the face of homelessness. Every single person in this room is one bad day away from financial ruin. To cast a wide net and accuse every single homeless person or most homeless people of being drug addicts or dragging drugs into this town is irresponsible. That's all I have. And then what else with the question? Yeah. No, we're here. Maybe I'm not clear on this, but does the voters or the slide board have a decision on this or is this something you just like override? Are we just here just listening to the comments? So this is a state owned property now. It's a permitted legal use. So the state is planning to proceed. There is permitting that's under dispute in some ways right now, I think, but there should be a legal path to the state being able to use this property as a shelter for the temporary period of time. We're here to make sure I understand what the concerns of the community are. We want to be good partners. I know it's not your choice. It hasn't been, it's been very little notice and that's not how I would like to operate or how the state would like to operate in this situation. But we're trying to move fast to put up this emergency shelter. So we still do want to hear everything that you have to say and try to address all of your concerns. Yeah, I was just trying to see if we have the decision or if this slide board has a decision on it. Sounds like they don't, but the other question I saw is like you stated that five times this is not the ideal scenario, not the ideal place you would choose early on. Do you feel like your decision making in that this isn't ideal and so this is the third option, this is coming down to what maybe there is a problem with our housing situation because you continue to make not ideal decisions maybe or what do you think? It's a legitimate problem. We've been trying to do the best that we can with the resources that we have. We've tried a lot of different things and not all of them pan out and it's for a lot of different reasons. It's because maybe there's community opposition and we can't find a building. Maybe we can't find a workforce to run it. Maybe we don't have the money. So there needs to be a longer term vision. There needs to be more investment in this because the homelessness problem is growing. We need to invest in housing and units. This is of course one very important part of the solution but we don't love to have to make decisions on short term short term temporary options with very little notice to communities in less than ideal spaces using congregate shelters when we know non-congregate is a better practice. So definitely not ideal all around. I said it multiple times and I'll continue to say it but this is what one option that we can put together that will make a difference for some people for a short period of time. And you know I'll just clarify that our town zoning administrator has determined that they do require a change of use permit and they have them till Friday to respond. Do they need an active 50 permit through? Do they need to be on that or? Well, that's not a town permit. That's a state permit. My understanding is they do not. Would an active 50 permit have to do all of that? They would have to be approved by that. It's not a change of use permit. It's not a relevant question. They don't need the active 50 permit. They don't. They do not. And if they do, that's a state determination, not a town determination. My understanding is they do not. Tom, can you clarify what the current use permitting process would look like here in the water? In terms of is there a say about it if people are just getting that is that the town people have a say in that process? So the state would ultimately wind up before the DRB about a determination whether or not they need a permit. If we assume they need a permit from the DRB, there's a legal process there. And that can end a few different ways. The DRB can issue a permit or deny the permit. If the DRB issues a permit, any person in this room can challenge that decision in an environmental court. What you need to challenge that decision is I believe a $300 filing fee. If you challenge that decision, I believe the permit has an automatic 15 day stay. But that's it, after 15 days, it goes to court and they can operate the shelter. If the DRB were to deny the permit, then eventually the state could in fact be an environmental court against the town. That process takes time. That's a process that would occur in any town. That's simply from on state law and following the legal process. Thanks, Tom. Whitney, I see that you've got your hand up again. We've got other people in the room that have been patient, so I'm gonna call on them first. If we have time, I'll get back to you, okay? Yeah, you're next. Thank you. I'm Eliza McSmith, I live up in the center. And I think, Chris, you said at the beginning that this is an unprecedented crisis. I think your words exactly were that this is emergent now. I think it feels a little bit, well, I want to be fair, but it feels hard for me to hear that, given that the state has been paying for folks who are unhoused to live in motels for three, four years now. And I think, separately from folks of us who do have housing in town and do have housing in this state, it feels challenging to hear that on behalf of the folks who are unhoused. I think that they would disagree with your characterization that this is a new emergency. And I think after years of COVID, hearing from state officials and federal government officials, this will only be temporary. This will be three months. At this point, the experience of the last several years has been what starts as three months is much longer. And I think we have an expectation of knowing what the plan is. And not just, we will make a plan, we have a hypothetical plan. Your department in family services cannot work with a family and their children without writing a detailed case plan and presenting it to court, identifying obstacles and goals and strengths and putting in writing your commitments to the families that you work with. And I think the state owes it to the town and to taxpayers and to the folks who need housing. A plan in writing with specific commitments for what the state is going to do to build out the pipeline so that we won't continue to need to have temporary shelter for three weeks or for three months in perpetuity, because if there's not anything in the pipeline, three months isn't going to be enough, no matter how hard everyone is trying to make it work. That's really well said. You sound like Representative Wood. I'm actually asking the committee. It's a fair question. Like, what is the long-term plan and the long-term goal? As far as the last three or four years, I've been DCF commissioner for almost a year now. And it's been like three or four. But it's been about a year. And before that, during COVID, we did open up the hotel and hotel program to take people out of congregate shelters and get them into private rooms to protect the most vulnerable, especially the elderly. And then there was federal money that came behind that. So it was very easy to say, let's just keep taking the federal money and keep people in hotels and not really think about what's next. And then they send it again. And again, we kept saying it's going home and then it didn't turn in and then it didn't. For three or four years. And now the federal money is gone. And we built this very large hotel-motel program. But there really is a housing crisis. It's getting worse and worse. And affordability seems to be getting worse and worse. And the scarcity of moving into affordable apartments is worse and worse. There are a lot of people in the hotel-motel program who are not, they don't have substance issues, they don't have mental health issues. They have jobs, they have no ability to find an affordable apartment, anything that's less than $1,500, $2,000 a month. They're just aren't even available. So it feels to me like the crisis is getting worse and worse, but it's been a while coming. It's been multiple years coming and building up this hotel-motel program through COVID and beyond without a plan for what's next. The state deserves a lot of money for that, for where we are now. Looking at short-term fixes, we need to take longer terming to your point. When will that start? I mean, it is starting and there are lots of strategies being employed now and lots of small progress in a lot of different places. It's the whole, it's active 50 reform, it's local zoning reform, but it also needs to be how are we building out additional, traditional shelters with wraparound supports that are more successful than our hotel-motel program. And to your point that we should provide the town with a more detailed plan, I absolutely hear that. And we should do that and we will endeavor to do that, give you as much detail as possible as soon as possible. But I just can't, as I've said multiple times over, I would love to say April 1st to July 1st, hear the people who are coming in, we're gonna be done. I don't wanna sit up here and say that and have that not be true. But we can't go long-term with a temporary, with a shelter, an armory shelter that is in not an ideal location and it is more expensive than the hotel-motel program. That's just not something that's gonna be sustainable for the long-term. I'll just note that we've got eight minutes left on the agenda for this. So I'll ask you to try to keep your comments brief and step forward if you have a question. Anyone back here? My name is John Callan and I'm a work in Wellington. So I see a lot of the homes with homelessness and it's not controlled like you're talking about either. So I've seen all sorts of really bad behavior and I don't want that to be duplicated here in Florida because this is a safe place to come to right now. My children come out of here and work in town and I want to keep it that way. I just wanted to ask, I've seen where you have all these people, there's people that you can recognize walking down the street who really are just there for illicit purposes, urbanized from other states, walking through or they're not friendly people. And there's a lot of nice people in Wellington that's not trying to miscarry from Wellington but the element exists, they have a lot of violence there. And so I would like to ask, how are you going to not have this the magnet or those who want to cause trouble here? You talked about your rules and you published those. Can you publish the contract with your vendor? Those type of things against insurances and can you come up with criteria for when things are not going well? Whereas in the community where you need to come out because things are getting out of hand, because of the things you're trying to do are wrong by other people's behavior with your program are causing problems. I lived here in the 70s when they had this big hospital and we never had, there was very few problems. Just a few more seconds John. Okay, thanks for the question. Are you have shelter standards? They're somewhat guidelines and then the provider themselves will come up with rules for the shelter with the state's input and oversight. And once that RIP has signed that contract to be a public document, I'm glad to show you that. Sure. I just also wanted to add a couple things. In Burlington or to any county, they estimate there's over 200 individuals who are experiencing unsheltered homelessness. I think this is what we want to avoid. We want people to be sheltered. We don't want people to be unsheltered. We're facing nationwide a dramatic increase in homelessness and people who are becoming homeless for the first time. And over the past few years, Burmontiers have rehoused more people than we have in years preceding, but the demand for this service just keeps growing because of inflation, because of the high cost of housing, because of some of the issues you've mentioned. So I just think that that's an important dynamic to realize and that, again, I think what we're really trying to prevent is having more people who are unsheltered because the more people are in housing, that's where it can be such a launchpad for their health, for their job security, for their children, for their family. So I just wanted to add that and make sure that that was part of the conversation. Thank you, Lily. Do we have on Hamilton, Waterbury? We have drug addicts. I'm sorry, we're gonna have to respect the line. Next. Hi, my name's Maggie Burke. I'm the director of Waterbury Andalian Service. I shared an email with Commissioner Winters and Teresa Wood, as Alyssa mentioned. I just want to share a couple of the concerns that I have. Obviously, we respond 24 hours a day, seven days a week and provide the same quality care to every single person that we respond to. This proposed facility will house those who are elderly, have disabilities or pregnant, as has been mentioned. All these populations in general have a higher contact with emergency services, regardless of whether housed or not. We as an ambulance service are struggling financially, just like all rural ambulance services in the nation for a nonprofit organization and we're grateful for the taxpayers who cover just under 30% of our budget. Many of these folks are gonna either be uninsured or underinsured that are living in this facility and in other areas, we've got a full-time municipal ambulance service where the taxpayers are gonna absorb those additional costs, where this will fall on our nonprofit to cover those costs for those individuals that we're responding to. I'm also worried about burnout for our crews. We do still have a volunteer service. We have generally one paid person on our truck as well as volunteers. I'm concerned about my crew when they're getting called to the same address repeatedly to the same individuals. There's a couple different requests that I have to follow up on. One is being proactive and progressive. Can we use a community integrated mobile health or community paramedicine program where we go down and check on these individuals a couple of weeks. We work with a contractor and are reimbursed for that ability to be proactive with our neighbors and then also other communities that have success with being reimbursed for each emergency call to the facility. Berlin's an example. And so, could it be followed that the ambulance service would be reimbursed for the calls that we go through at this facility? Thank you. Thank you, man. You will follow up on that. Good evening. My name's Ron Hoffman. I've lived in the community for 30 some years. This is the first time I've ever spoken as a resident at a select board meeting. We live in one very center, so not moving directly near this, even though we're in the downtown every day. Years ago, my wife and I lived in Brooklyn and there was a homeless shelter near our house at our church. And we worked every few weeks. We worked, I don't know, work night overnight at that shelter. And there were a dozen guys that would come there and it was just Kit and I staffing it overnight. And in so many ways, the people that were there seemed so different than us. They looked different. They were different economically, different color of their skin. But in so many other ways, they were just like us. And I appreciate that our elected representatives are kicking the tires, putting these people through their paces and asking them the tough questions. And I appreciate you good people being here. You'd rather be with your families and you're answering as best you can all our questions. I would just hope that we approach this from a how can we make it work standpoint. And I don't know that it's the right idea, but I think we should approach this. How would we want to be treated if we were in the predicament of these people? And we could be, but for the grace of God, we're not. And I would just ask that we approach it, how we can make it work and how would we want to be treated if we were in their shoes? Thanks. Scott. Scott Magnick, Waterbury Village. And in the spirit of Rob's comments, I mean, I am concerned about the rush process. This thing needs to succeed. And I feel like when you rush something through like this, you ignore all the processes and procedures we've set up in our laws and municipal regulations and just jam it through. I mean, I could wait longer to get a permit for the deck of my house, which is the timeline that's been put out here. But I feel like it makes it more likely that it's not gonna succeed.  I mean, this homeless crisis, you've said it, it's not gonna get better. It's gonna get worse. We're in a full employment economy right now and the federal government is spending a trillion dollars more than we have. That's not gonna continue. So the homeless crisis, these housing units are not gonna get built in the next year, two years, three years. And so bring us a proposal that's thought out, that's in scale with the community where we have time to look at it. I mean, we're gonna have the same problem next one. Bring us a proposal that's in scale with our community that's thought out, let us look at it. I guarantee you this community will support it, but if you rush it through like this and say, well, we don't need to follow the rules, we don't need a permit, we're just gonna do this, I just don't think it's gonna help you chance the success and then you're gonna have other communities where you try to build these things and they're gonna say, well, look at what happened over in Waterbury. We don't want it here. I just don't think it's doing anybody any favors to try to jam us through like this. I do think Waterbury wants to be part of the solution, but when you do it like this, I just don't think it's gonna work. Thank you. And I don't envy what you do when you have a difficult job. I appreciate you coming into our community and talking to us, but I really feel like it needs to be done right so it'll succeed. Thanks. Thanks, Scott. I'll recognize Ezra online. Thank you. My name's Ezra. A quick question I have and I believe this was in the letter and I'm not sure if this got addressed tonight, but even the proximity of it close to the middle school, my question for the state and to Tom is, can we guarantee that there won't be sex offenders placed within that homeless center? I know we talked about disability and mental health issues, but specifically making sure that our kids are not endangered when we know that that's not a good fit and we have a choice of who we can place in the homeless shelter. And then my ask to Tom is that will we hold the state liable if they do not follow that or put our kids at risk? Will we legally hold them liable? So we are working with this cohort that's in the hotels that we've been in contact with since June. We've screened them. We know a lot about them. Law enforcement gets in touch with us if someone in the hotel system is a sex offender. So we have that information.  Thank you. Hello everybody. My name is Brits. I'm a small business owner in town and I live right in Marbury. And I think my concerns really are like the rushed along kind of approach. I feel like there's a lot of questions that haven't been directly answered. And I think that there's just a due process to like, we don't have a police force. The ambulance department is stretched thin. You know, like public transportation is not that great and it's cold. And so it's just kind of like when the state tax dollars kind of fade away and we are getting more calls. If that happens, maybe it won't happen. But like, is that gonna fall in the Waterbury community to start kind of picking up the slap there as far as that goes? We're furthermore like, I would love to see this succeed and also like, have it be kind of a model for maybe other towns that don't have those infrastructures set up yet. But I think it is important to take our time to do it wisely and to also have transparency with the director of this facility. Like who is going to be regulating these people that are coming in and coming out?  I think in having an open network of communication so that if we are seeing issues we can go directly to the source instead of having to kind of like just talk about it until nothing happens, you know? I think those are my concerns and I think taking more time and really like crossing our teeth and dotting our eyes is essential for this to be successful. Thank you. Rob DeBrowski, I can't help but notice your intro statement is that it's more expensive to do this than putting them in a hotel. I know for a fact that you're not gonna just drop the ball for these people because it puts their lives at great hardship when you just up and say, okay, we're ending the hotel motel program. And I know you've just extended that mainly for that reason. I, our kids go to Brookside. I know for a fact somebody else mentioned that they have class down in the woods there. They go skiing there once a week. So in the wintertime as well. I've worked for eight months next to a project next to one of these hotel motels. I know that after the first week because of all the vandalism and needles and everything else, they had to put up events for eight months. Every single day somebody was out there picking up needles every morning. Not to say that everybody, every homeless person is a drug addict. I have a different experience. My sister was homeless. My sister and her husband were drug addicts. They are almost homeless again. Her husband died from COVID and now she's living alone with her 16 year old sister, support. So infrastructure. Did everybody find parking here today? I'm sure they did, right? Because we have great infrastructure here in Waterbury. No, we don't. And we don't have the infrastructure to support these people. My sister is almost homeless again, but we are supporting her. We are helping her every day. It's not an endless thing. So that's what I have to say. Thank you. Hi, Robbie. Good evening. I'm now homeless. I've been a resident of Waterbury over 15 years. This is the third time that I've been involved in a change of plans as far as the Waterbury is concerned at the state level. Trust upon Waterbury without a lot of planning, emergency. The first was the juvenile jail at Waterbury, so to the state, you said you really don't have solid plans to locate the juvenile jail in Waterbury and we can have the compassionate community over all these years to the state hospital and continue to be with the patients that are out of the state hospital and you know who put in those patients. And then came a time when the state overran the number of women at the prison in South Burlington. It was the second time that Waterbury had to stand up and say, well, we have taken care of some of the social issues for a long time and compassionate, but this does not match with what's going on here within the community. And at that time, they wanted to put at the state mental health facility, they wanted to put the juvenile jail in there, excuse me, women's jail in there. But they worked out in arranging with the village for a short period of time to accommodate a certain number and monitor that and make sure it was monitored and recorded back to the village and it seemed to work out over a short period of time. I spent two hours this afternoon, I went on Google after hearing last week that the town of Williston was interested in purchasing at some point in time, the state police are extensive operating in the state and so I went on Google and I said, no wonder if that's the right size. So I looked at the state complex, excuse me, the state facility. Just about 10 more seconds. I looked at the facility, which is the armory. And I found out that there's $1,300 square feet roughly at the armory. And then I'm gonna ask you to wrap it up, please, the same time that everyone else got. So if you do have a question you can ask it otherwise, we're gonna wrap up. Can I see in five minutes for them? Sure, yeah, then you can have 60 seconds. There's the successive facilities that are even ventilating at the Williston facility because it's an office building, which does not exist at the state armory. The building is right off the other state, it's within a 400 feet of the other state, whereas the armory is not, we ask the government through our neighbor when they get to the other state. The state police is located on the other side of the other state now, about 900 feet from the old building that they've located. And that old building appears to be a two-story building, which is a two-story office building, about a third to a half of it is the state police, the rest of it I think is fish and wild life or some voting registration part of the building. But anyway, that does have heating and ventilating in bathrooms and it does have facilities, basically, which can be converted. I would think a lot cheaper than the armory and a lot quicker than the armory could be. Okay, thank you so much. That's been three minutes. Pass this around for everybody. Thank you. Thanks, Al. Yeah, I'll just take one quick minute here. Dr. Lightes, I'm a village resident, and make no mistake, this will be a village problem. This is not a Perry Hill problem. This is not a Blush Hill problem. This is not a Shaw mansion problem. This ain't a problem up in the hollows. This will be a downtown village problem. I currently live next to the train station. I currently live next to Rusty Parker. I currently deal with the drug addicts in Waterbury. I currently deal with the homeless in Waterbury. It's only gonna get worse if we invite this to our town. We have this problem already that no one does anything about. Revitalized Waterbury. One of their amazing, most notorious projects they did was the train station, the Historical Welcoming Center. The Welcoming Center is currently closed because we're finding needles and these special clients are sleeping, or were sleeping, at the Welcoming Center. This is gonna be a village problem. I currently deal with the homeless. I give the guys that are in the halfway house right now, I lend them money every week. Thank you so much. If it's run short, I lend them the money every week. This is gonna be a local problem. Not a problem up in the middle. Thanks, Whitney. Did you have something to add? Hi, Roger. This is Wade Hodge. This used to be his husband. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'll try to be brief. I did wanna just start by saying that I do hope that this program can help some people in need. So, Chris and team, I know you're feeling a lot of difficult questions thanks for being here. The question I had is, has the DCF considered the potential failure modes that might occur and have you plan for continuing these to address those failure modes if they occur? Again, I hope that they don't, but if they do have you planned for that, could you give us some specific examples, please? I guess I'm not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by wouldn't you say failure mode? Well, things that might go wrong. I know that we wanna hope for the best, but things might go wrong. I don't know, burglary, trust testing, listening, things that just may go awry and have you planned for that and how you would address that should those things occur? Sure, so I think those are some of the conversations we need to have with law enforcement. And I know that's started, I don't know how far down the road those have gotten yet. I think we need to continue to communicate with the town. We need to speak to the volunteer ambulance service. We need to keep talking to the town government and keep talking to the school district. So I think I've said this before that this has to be an ongoing conversation as we get more details around how this is gonna be planned out. But as far as failures, I mean, I think what you're talking about are law enforcement issues. Are rules of the shelter. Reasons why we might exit someone or try to place them in a different form of shelter. I'm sorry, I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, I mean, I think just being proactive in planning for things that could occur would be very important and planning about how you would potentially respond to those potential failures that may occur, but doing it in a proactive way and being planful and prepared I think is kind of what I was getting at. Yeah, I take your point. And that's why I think we really want an experienced shelter manager in charge of this to be able to do those, someone with the experience to plan ahead for those sorts of incidents and be prepared for them. Thanks Chris and thanks to everyone that came here and those that voiced your questions and others that just came to listen. I'd like to recognize that we have Representative Tom Stevens here as well as Representative Teresa Wood. Teresa, the seer committee that's been overseeing this. Do you have some rapid comments or questions? I do, I do, Teresa Wood. And the first thing I want to say is the commissioner alluded to potential change that's happening in the Budget Adjustment Act would extend the deadline for people in the hotels and the house sent to the Senate, a bill that would include housing these folks in the hotels, bring them to 30th. The Senate has a counter proposal and for this particular cohort that they actually continue that as well. There's another group of individuals that we will have to negotiate about I just wanted to be clear with people that the folks who would be eligible for this armory shelter that the commissioner's talked about are likely to have housing at the hotels until June 30th. That has been agreed to in theory. We're going to conference committee and I am on the conference committee. One of the reasons I'm on the conference committee is specifically around this housing issue. So I just wanted people to have that information as a piece of the puzzle that we've been talking about tonight. Thank you, Teresa. Thanks to all for coming out tonight. We are going to move forward with our agenda with some other business to discuss. So thank you, Tom and the lady. Can you take two minutes break if you'd like? Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you, yes. Pretty awesome. Thank you. Yeah, it's a good job. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm sure if you have a problem I have a list. Me too. Do you know what I mean? I think that's a great thing. I think that's a lot of suggestions. I know where the problem is. It's good to have a list of here. That's what you don't need it for. I think this is for you. Oh, wow. I just want to say thank you guys. Thanks for coming. Thank you for coming. She was so good. Is this Ian? Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. All of your voices. Yeah. I was trying. It's getting harder. Now that I know that I'm going to be able to speak. Really isn't. I can't wait. I can't wait. I need to use the bathroom. I will rejuvenate the material. Hi. Hi. Oh, hello. Hello. Hi. Wow. Oh, hello. Good to see you. Oh, hello. Hi. Hi. Hi, hello. Hi. Hi. David? Is that it? Yeah. Yeah. Good evening. Good morning. Good evening. I'm from Lake Avondale. I don't know if you're working on it or not.  So I think it's just highly-aggressive. So I'm just going to let you guys have a seat. Thank you. I'll see you around. Bye. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh, I know what that looks like, but it's doing so. Yeah. Right? So help me. This is a new apartment. Yeah. It's new. Come on. This is good for you. No. Absolutely not. Yeah. No. Absolutely not. Yeah. Okay. That was a done. And it was. I know. I opened it again. Hi. Yeah. I actually got started. Okay. I'm sorry. I just got started. I'm sorry. Okay. I just wanted to get started. I just wanted to get started. It was really cool. And it was kind of, it was interesting because it was what you did. I just wanted to get started. A lot of her kids are going to end up at school because they don't need a little bit of time for everything, so they're going to come out of school. I don't think it's going to take this long. So much fun. You guys are going to have to have some other stuff. We have a lot of people to share that. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dane. Elizabeth, yes. Of course. I have not really heard about it. You know my grab extension. Oh yeah! Anyway, I actually don't have 100 meetings. She goes, not for anything in the world. I was like, okay. I was like, oh wait, this is for the master? Yes. Yeah, sure. And then I went outside.  Yeah, because I can't wait to come out of school. Right. I'm going to go out of school, and I'm going to go to the end of the day.  I'm going to go to school.  You're going to have fun. Yeah, I'll be there. So you know. We have a lot of things to do. Oh, thank you. That's like a really big compliment because it's very, it's very scary. I do, I do. And they want to throw it back at me in most of them, so. It's off-brand. Maybe, hopefully. You wrote it out, though. You're taking notes for the rest. Yeah, I saw you. It's not a joke. It is a joke. We'll see him on the phone. She brought her shepherds. She's eating them. Now there's Luke and Jean. I'll expect the grant. She'll expect order. Good. I don't need to see you. We've got it done. We're doing charity. Public is done. I don't know. Does anyone want these? Does anyone want these? Does anybody want these? I don't know. Thanks everyone for coming. You want to continue your conversations? I ask that you move it into the hallways. Yeah, you can sit right here. See? We actually do have one item for you. I'll expect the order at 8.54. And the next item on the agenda is the entertainment permit with good fire LLT. There's a good fire representative here. Here. Oh, there's another one. Come on forward. Zoom user. This is a good fire. Yeah. All right. Thanks for coming back. And I apologize. We had to address this for a couple meetings. So we're a little bit unclear as to whether this was a one-day event or a two-day event. We sat here with parking. I think that's been cleared up. I don't know. I think I've got it. Okay. With some additional information that we've received, do you have just an opening statement about what the event is about and how you're preparing for it? Yeah, sure. So we're just celebrating our one year of being open in the town. We're just going to have a little grill out, have some music, invite the local community to come check it out. Check it out. And celebrate with us. We're trying to be really cautious. We've contacted all our local neighbors. Trying to be strategic about where everything's been placed. And so this is on Sunday of the 7th of April? Correct. Yeah. Hi, sorry. Here on our screen is a Zoom user. What's your name? I'm sorry. I'm Bob Lowen. I'm trying to get this phone to her. I just thought we're a good fire. We're a fire cannabis LLC. This is Bob. All right. So yeah. Go ahead, Bob. So what Ben explained was we're hoping to have a live music event that's going to last for a week between 11 and 5. We have set up some local traffic control with the state police. We've got the permission of the neighbors. We have a food truck that we'd like to have. And we hope we've hired a given as long as we get the permission. We're going to have an 80s tribute band and somebody fill a bear from Brunch in Vermont that's going to come down. We're going to have a warm out there on the lawn with local police present or state police present. We hope to have nice weather. And do you have an idea of how many people you're expecting? We really do, but we're trying to do this in tangent with the eclipse. So we know there are going to be a lot of people in town. So I did reach out to Karen's suggestion. I did reach out to Dan across the street and Dan gave us the OK for overflow parking across the street. So we're not at all concerned about parking. We don't really expect more than 30 people really to be honest. It's a small event outside. Yeah. Everyone will be asked for ID as well. Yeah. My only concern is that the date may influence the number of people that show up. I've heard people say that we might expect 10,000 people coming to Waterbury on the eclipse weekend. We already know that there's a lot of bookings in town which are unusual for that time of year when the wind is blowing down. So you may be surprised and I want to make sure that we don't end up with a much larger problem than we anticipate. Another concern I have and maybe address this with state police is that that is a busy roadway on any weekend. And to have people parking over at Cold Hollow and then having to cross the road where there may be a pedestrian crosswalk is a concern. So I just want to address that. Well, yes. I agree. So we've got about 22 parking spaces at the store which we know is not enough. We reached out to Dan. We know there are going to be people walking across the street. We would never consider not doing this without state police there. We're going to be in the middle of the day well lit between 11 and 4. I don't, you know, right out on the lawn. I don't really anticipate any issues, you know, in regard to, you know, traffic. I suspect that we're going to have a lot of people in town but I think everybody's going to be faced with a lot of people during that weekend. I think it's going to be helpful for the community to get out there and celebrate this one-time event. Other questions from the board? I appreciate everything. The follow-up from the request from last meeting was really helpful. I think there was a lot of unknowns and all the follow-up was really helpful. And then thinking it is going to be a really busy weekend but it might be really nice to have one more thing for people to go to to spread out and be really crowded that weekend. So adding another place could be helpful with dispersing but yeah, just be ready in case it is super busy. Okay. I also just wanted to add a comment that I felt it was very respectful and very good taste of good fire to come back to us when we asked them to with an updated plan, with updated mapping. I thought I went from one thing to another. Any other concerns anyone wants to express? If not, do I have a motion? I move to grant good fire VT entertainment permit for, is it the 6th or the 7th? 7th. April 7th, 2024. A second. Moved and seconded, any further discussion? One thing I should have mentioned. I know in the email they put they've copied Trooper regular about that but depending on what's going to happen with the homeless shelter it could be open at that point in time. So we don't, that could create some issues but I don't want to say anything. I think the state police is probably able to do what they have to do. My understanding is the officer may be doing this on his own time. He's getting paid by the state police but it's not his normal work day. He is doing strictly that event. Okay, so he's designated. It's a concern but we have any further discussion? No. Moved and seconded? All of them say aye. Any opposed? Any abstentions? Congratulations, you have your permit. Thanks very much. Next on the agenda is organizational meeting for the town meeting which will be on the 5th of March. I'll ask Rebecca Ellis to step forward. Rebecca, you have volunteered to serve as our next co-moderator. Is that correct? Yes, it is. We have a selection so anyone can be nominated at that time. I don't know of anyone else that we have in mind. I'm assuming that we might nominate and move to elect you. I've reached out to Jeff Kilgore to let me know if that's the way things might happen. Jeff is with us online. That's with him. Jeff, is that you? That's the cursor. Alright. They both appear to be muted. No. Okay, he's not muted. Jeff, is that you? Jeff Kilgore? Let's move forward. So I think the way that we've done this in the past is to look at the proposed agenda for the articles and they see what the order of the day will be as to who will be saying what. Do you have questions? Do you share the emotions yet? Karen. Yeah, we have them. There's a version one that Rebecca had said and there's a version that I had done. However, Tom did and this is the most up to date one. Tom did simplify I believe it was article nine this afternoon. Seven and nine I just paid a dollar amounts to. So if you looked at the packet when I sent it Friday this varies a little from that. So we're working off of Oh, we're deciding not. I'm paralyzed. I'm sorry. I should have just done one. Okay. I think the most important thing is just to walk through and make sure that you know who's making which motions because if you make the motion then you have the right to be the first person to speak on that motion. Okay. And and actually the first for article one Jeff Kilgore will run the meeting during article one of the election of the new moderators. Article two and three are a thrilling ballot for the election of officers. So there's no discussion of that. So article four is the first one up to grabs. I was going to throw my hand up for article one to nominate you. Just a clarifying question. Rebecca, will he need to nominate you and then you accept the nomination and then he'll also have to move to elect? Yeah. That's my understanding. Your second. I didn't cover that in my preparation because I'm not running that part. There's a nomination, people say nomination nomination, and then it'll be, there's only one person that will just cast one ballot and if it's a vote then I'm going to show up hands. Okay. Article two. So there's no motion to be made at all? No, it's an Australian ballot. Alright. So then four. That's a pretty easy one. Danny? Okay. Five. I did five last year. I think you all felt like it would be awkward to ask for your own. Oh, I was going to ask who was going to fall on that hand grenade. Let me just say for article five there are many towns that don't have that article. They simply have the voters adopt rates of pay for the select board and until those are modified they're in place in perpetuity. It's up to you. It's on the it's on the warrant now. It's on the warrant now. You can do something different now. Put a post-it note on the wall and we'll read it out. Since this is my last time to have an opinion about that I'm going to go ahead and voice it. I like the idea of keeping it. As we saw unfortunately with like the town manager we would often forget things like raises or increase in pay or making sure we're talking about it and so just having it there taking maybe two minutes I feel like it's helpful versus like 15 years go by and we haven't revisited it. That's all. I don't think it's unreasonable because that gives people an option to say no they should take a cut and pay or no they should be increased I think that's up to the voters actually a valid item. Okay. Everyone's okay with Karen moving article 5? Thank you. Article 6. For article 6 when we get closer I'll have exact dates to recommend for the installments. Didn't want to have those for tonight. Just in case there's some change on the school front which is still a little bit up in the air compared to the town but simply traditional dates. And just to clarify are we doing 4.30 after the extended staying late open late thing are we approving at town meeting 4.30pm but the office is staying open till 5 on that day for our previous conversation? I just feel like it's an important one Yeah. Yeah there was a long discussion at which time we chained it to 5.30pm. Yeah and we had a further discussion around methods of payment and e-check and I felt like the one piece we resolved is that town staff are there till 5pm anyway. To be clear we can still warn it for 4.30 I just didn't know if the intention of those folks staying later was to offer flexibility. That was my understanding. No staff objection to increasing the time. So then can it be reflected? Yes. That's why it's in red. That was my question. Also anything that's in italics here that we're looking at it's the motion that you're going to make at town meeting so it's not set in stone until I've got your mouth at town meeting. And the second piece just so people are aware is I've been assured that there will be a challenge to the 8% penalty. It's an annual challenge. Yeah. So should we change that then from 4.30pm to 5.30pm? We said 5. And yes, we are going to change it. Okay. We said 5. Didn't we? I thought we said 5.30pm. Let's call it 5.30pm. I'm going to already change it. I don't remember. I'm not looking at the minutes from last meeting. We can read. I mean you can just tell me to make it the minutes and we have to look right now. Make it the minutes. Because we discussed and decided. Thank you. But you're going to make the motion at 8% and you're anticipating something from the floor. A debate? Correct. Okay. Well I won't make the motion at 8% but Mike, well in fact I'll for someone who's paid the fine article 7 Article 7 is the hard one. It's a mouthful. So in many towns their version of article 7 is very easy and essentially what someone does is say about the budget. That is it. And the I'd like to review article 7 with council and in part because we also set the tax rate in article 7 which is based on the budget. But there have been years in the past when the tax rate was not sufficient to meet the revenues needed because the grand list did not grow at the anticipated level. And I think and the tax rate in the end is set by the select board not long before bills are issued right around July 1. I think at a minimum the motion should say an estimated tax rate. But in general many towns simply say I vote to adopt the budget and then part of the reason too is that article 9 is really redundant because all the spending in article 7 is also encompassed in article 9. The budget contains the capital funds. The other funds transfer to the capital funds. You're already essentially appropriating that. So it would be odd if article 7 passed but article 9 did not. So I have no objection to the articles but the language that is used to front the 4 strikes me as a little bit cumbersome and awkward. Can you have if there's a budget that's approved in 7 then if there's questions to change the amount in 9 can that be done? That can be done. But you know again the capital funds are embedded in the budget. So it's odd to approve one and not the other. Exactly because if you've approved the budget and then you go, you amend it to something else, you have a budget that's really not correct. But that happens either way, right? No matter the way. Right, either way. Well it's not how it's warned so we can say it a different way, right? Technically. Why did Bill Shepulak leave when I get to say I love the flower in terms of the interest of it's inhabitants and prosecution is a common right. So I was going to volunteer to stand up and say it, but if we don't want to we don't have to. Bill make that more sense. Just one thing, I know that the tax rate got added maybe only a few years ago, two or three years ago we never set, previously set the tax rate I'm assuming that sometime in the last two or three years it's like maybe because of COVID or some other reason. I believe because it was Bill at the time. Right, so I don't that's not traditional in Waterbury to have a tax rate expressed. And then the only other thing I would say is however you express it, it's articles 10 through 21. And in theory the capital budget is supposed to be separate from the general fund the highway and the library expenses though I understand in practice money is fun it's an odd tradition money is fungible obviously they cannot be separate but it's I'm not arguing it's a tradition I'm just suggesting that the actual motion for article 7 can be shortened if desired if Alyssa would love to use the flowery language I'm not going to argue I will simply pencil in the approach I'm not going on the record as the flowery language I'm not going on the record though that sentence made me run for select board but anyway I am most interested in this tax thing because I will say right last year didn't we say wasn't the motion not to exceed 545 so we had to round down when we set tax rate I guess I think having an intentional conversation about if we want to remove that. I believe it's appropriate to leave it in because in the end I think people vote on a tax rate as much as a budget but I think it's appropriate to say an estimated tax rate rather than not to exceed people want to know what the tax rate is going to be there are a lot of people who are they know what tax rates are and that's one thing they're going to be looking at they may even ask that right but again as Tom was saying it really depends on the grand list which is a estimate figure so I think estimated tax rate provides good information estimated but put a tax rate in there okay. You okay with that Alyssa? Yeah I guess I would like it to be a separate sentence then I guess just to me the language and that the select board be authorized to issue bills I'm not an attorney obviously we have to have it reviewed for property taxes so would it just be with a total municipal tax rate on the town's grand list to be the budget comma estimated to meet like the authorization we need just to raise the money for the budget that the voters are approving yes and we estimate based on current grand list that it will be that but I just think we need to be clear that we need the authority to raise the full budget yes and then apart from what I think folks do know numbers. If you make the motion to just adopt the budget I think that's fine I think when people if they start making amendments it's gonna people can do this anyway but they might start really looking at the budget going line by line you are allowed to do line item so the way it's structured now it gets a little bit more at sort of the big categories so just heads up that happens in many years people want to take this for that out and then you have a discussion the select board usually will make some sort of pow wow and say we don't feel this is a legitimate expense will you go yay or nay that's acceptable to us or not acceptable to us the amendments I'm just wondering the form of the amendments because as we say the plan will be amendment so I don't know if the motion is to adopt the budget and are you thinking the amendment would be less $20,000 for the highway plan or something like that yes and that's part of the challenge of people do amend the budget then we have to redo the math on the fly in essence and try to get that right I'm just suggesting in many towns they use rather simple language here and someone simply says I move to vote the budget and I'm not sure what the individual of hands done question on amendments too and this came up in a conversation I had the other week and I jolted a memory but I'm not sure what the individual told me was correct but what I was told was you cannot amend a dollar amount in the budget greater than a certain percentage so there's like so I've been doing a lot of reading on this there's sort of like this general rule that some people follow like plus or minus 10% it's calling out Jeff Kilgore Jeff Kilgore sorry about yeah it happens we understand we're just here with Rebecca Ellis going through the articles and we started with discussing article one where I said that I would nominate her to serve as our next town moderator and then I guess it moves from nominations if there's none other then we move to a motion to elect her say what is your pleasure with the respect to article one and I'll read article one and then you'll nominate for any other nominations okay okay great and then I don't know if you got my email about the Keith Wallace award okay so if you wouldn't mind sticking around for another hour or so there'll be a presentation okay okay okay presentation there'll be a whole new perspective for you I'm anticipating a lot of points of order point of order please I don't think there'll be any I guess on the having just volunteered for the budget article indirectly do we make a motion up front to allow Tom to speak as a non-resident I recall in the past having to stand up when I worked for RW yeah what I'll do in the beginning following Jeff's script because he kindly shared it with me is one thing as I'll have everyone who's not a non-resident raise their hand or remind them that they're not allowed to speak unless there's suspension of rules when it's Tom first wants to speak I'll say you know Mr. Light as a resident of Cambridge if there's no objection he'll be allowed to speak for the rest of the meeting he'll bring no objection Howard Dean was same as we denied that if there is an objection then I'll ask somebody to make a motion to suspend the rules to allow him to speak it's a two-thirds vote I'm sure he'll be allowed to speak anyway so that's how we'll do it so the power of the moderator is that I can say to people if there's no objection it'll happen and I'll wait a little bit and if there's no objection then it's unanimous consent and that happens so that will work great great do we need any further discussion on article 7 I think the one quick question that was the 10% rule that's sort of a rule of reason moderators don't have to follow that I mean if it gets wildly if it's a $100 expenditure and somebody wants to drop it to $50 that's not going to be an objection but if it's a million dollars it's someone's going to drop to $500,000 like that would clearly be out of order and you might want to ask Jeff if he has any opinion on the flowery language in article 7 that's how it's always been said Jeff the motion is usually I moved to approve the tone of wide-race sums of money for the interest of its inhabitants and for the prosecution and defense of the common rights does that have any special meaning only that that is the language that's in the statute as I recall and we have pretty much parroted the statute in that article you'll be consulting the council that's fine I'm not going to spend a lot of money on this or look at the statute many towns simply say motion to approve the budget so Melissa are you going to read this one? okay and that would be in order right just do a motion to approve the budget I think the better practice is to give a number and that lets people give people the opportunity to amend it more easily okay that's fine are we all clear? I'll wait for the final version I'll do eight we just saw all those fun fire trucks and I really want to do eight Rebecca had a legal question was that you? yeah and I just suggested to you maybe to check with the council or to think about how to form this because I don't believe you can vote for a bond in a floor vote that has to be Australian ballot oh right it says to borrow up to $380,000 by bonds or no you might make the motion like that and then if you're not going to use the bond it's not going to really matter but you can't use the bond I think you have to make the motion the same as the article but you're authorizing borrowing not authorizing that the bond is going to be passed can I make a suggestion on that one? sure I would say that you have on the article the article says shall you vote by bond or shall the the money be borrowed by bond or no and I think as the article says specifically to be borrowed by no for a period not to exceed five years then you're alright that's not what the article says I'm sorry the motion says oh okay okay but it's got some questions it's got an asterisk that says public safety purposes and then the fire department question mark but it also says purchase of a fire truck so I feel like that should be self-explanatory those are just notes I made those are just notes I made how you wanted to word this I think purchase of a fire truck full stop so if I can interrupt based on the reading I did today I think you're safe as said since you have a very detailed article is the motion unfortunately should follow the terminology in the article that's otherwise oh yeah I'm looking at the other one challenge or not providing proper warning so Cain I think we're Karen can do this in the next draft but it should basically say everything that's in that article when you write the article you might write the more simple sure but you have a problem and did you have any comments on that one from the fire department point of view I will be there like I am every year and certainly every time we have a truck in question if people have questions I can certainly answer so do you want to look at Rebecca's version yeah that's what I just showed I'm looking at your version I understand but look at her and see if you like that language better right is yours in light of what you suggested Rebecca is yours more in language the language yeah I kind of like that language better yeah okay I think the one thing is I took out you took out the word bond yeah I took out the word bond maybe I should have done that council wrote the article and he basically said he writes them all generically so no matter how they appear on the ballot or the warning they're all valid basically but you're right if it's just you're right on the legal terminology how you phrase the motion is I think subject to some discretion I guess I'd also just throw out that it's been warned we tend towards wordier language this year with acknowledgement that we'll try and create a less wordy warning next year alright article 9 I'll offer to do that one do you not pay any debts on the capitals we do not they're all in article 7 embedded in those costs awesome that's a Gasby rule that changed a couple of years ago is there an issue if we paid debts from the capital funds no it's just that I noticed in previous years we had that language but we were paying debts from the capital fund not that we should be paying debts from the capital fund but if you aren't then you don't need that language that's good article 10 I volunteer to make a deal with special articles nice Jen do you restate that whole article and then repeat it again when there's a vote yes yes that's subject to some comedy at the meeting you might need filler time yes skip it the thing I asked the voter wanted him to read it no so you did skip it okay I asked for their permission and they graciously granted you to skip it all right Karen where is he it's been ruled that's it that's on the ballot but not in the morning I was wondering on the last article separating the crew one was that somebody from the public was making that one public bill it was included I guess I would say to speak to in front of 21 as it is reimbursements and not in the budget I think our goal was recognizing it might not be binding but to capture our intent in a more as opposed to like in a budget and you don't know I believe it was Bill Bill or Liz because they're like the primary crew people Liz probably will not wish to speak into a meeting she's going to be busy with meeting I'm sure Bill would be willing to state a motion so asked actually I think he did ask for the motion but he didn't want to speak into a meeting I think we as a board of ownership did agree to put it on but then we want to change if there's an actual motion the wording in article 7 because it says 10 through 21 right but do you want to take out 21 leave it and then someone still yeah I think oh her got it I was not really in the budget but I was just slow catching up understood sorry about that so I think Mike had suggested at one time not only did I request to everybody who had a special article for things like a table well yeah place where they could place literature so now's a great time for me to decide am I reaching out to the individuals from articles 11 through 20 to come to the meeting and ask for their money I agree I think there should be I feel like Steve Lott's speech was always a Steve covered a bunch of them like Steve's not going to be here right so if that's if that's the wick then I certainly do that it's at least worth to ask someone again if there's a worthy organization someone who knows something about it is probably going to speak toward it yeah and you should make sure the organizations know they should find a Waterbury resident yeah it is hard for me to picture that a representative of the American Red Cross is going to show up at Waterbury Town meeting GMT too no but you have someone whose I'm sure a volunteer so I'll read the article and then I'll say what is your pleasure and there's a long silence and then finally somebody from the audience they make the motion just to get it got it it'd be nice like Red Cross has like a volunteer in Waterbury that can send them up and make chat motion Alex Collins Georgiana Birmingham I don't know if Margaret Lewis is still making a lot of use to be Steve would be make a bunch of thanks thank you so I did have a question were you going to get a lunch from sir you know I last year reached out to the senior center and they came into the lunch and I haven't made that same outreach I don't have confirmation okay so we don't know I don't know I can follow back up the contact I have is the bookkeeper so she wouldn't commit for them so I can reach back out that's actually a good reminder I also have child care I can maybe find out tomorrow if we're going to have it you always have a senior center and Justin will be there so he's the chair he's the board chair if there is if the meeting is going wrong I think the lunch is that like if we've got only 5, 10 articles left to go even 10, I won't want to break because I want to finish the meeting so if it's going to 1 or 130 it gets difficult because people are going to have lunch not that I need to but we will try not to take an actual research for lunch I can go downstairs and eat yeah having gone through this last year there's been enough laps in time between when the senior center was used to doing it to now or last year and no one seemed to know how it used to be but they did a great job they came and set up in the cafeteria downstairs and it was an opportunity for them to make a little money but the meeting did not go past new last year and possibly it won't ever since every school got switched to a different day it wasn't included as part of the meeting that's what we do that's for lunch because that's when you'd have both the school meeting as well as the town meeting and it never meetings were usually ending about 2.33 o'clock in the afternoon and then the other breaks that we normally do is allows Tom Stevens and Teresa Wood to speak and they haven't told me yet when they want to do it because they try to hit several town meetings and then I don't know if John Malcher will want to speak to him he will do you want trash talk do you want trash talk this year that's my favorite one line I'll speak to John tomorrow he might he doesn't do it on the budget they don't they don't so you know normally under Robert's rules people are allowed to speak for 10 minutes he's in the budget Alyssa he's not a separate warning but he does I don't think I will tell people there's a time limit but if people are starting to go long you might want to make a motion to suspend the rules to limit the amount of time that people can talk for the rest of the meeting you know like 3 or 5 minutes I don't think I'll do that at the beginning unless you're talking to I mean if you want I can say there's no objection all speeches should be limited to 5 minutes or something like that I would do it on a case by case basis I don't think we have that many controversial ones that are going to go long you don't say that wow I think it's a suggestion I'm talking about like the I think 5 minutes you have people to say what they need to say right and then the skip wanted to recognize the ambulance service 50 years of service to the town of Waterbury and especially have a motion from the select board to recognize Sarah White's 50 years of service to the ambulance honorary ambulance Sarah Utton was a white national so it can't be a motion because you don't have an article so it'll be out of order so I don't want you to make a motion then we have to tell you it's out of order I think it'll just be you'll come down to the stage and just say we'd like to say a few words alright alright and that'll be the same time that we'll then do the I think we'll do it all at the same time yeah one other process question um it's not in the warning but does should there be a plan to give an armory update at town media at town media other business well Jack had a question actually that was just a question on his text was that there's no other business that was what I was getting to there's no other business in the warning you're out of order if you don't do it I think I'll just announce Jack that's okay you know we'll just say we're going to have other business if nobody objects we'll just have other business obviously not obviously but anything discussed or any motions made under other business are not finding on the select board but I think it's usually a good practice to let people make comments on whatever they want to comment on at town meetings then the second second question I had for the board is so I like the idea of having a few department heads come in I know the manager traditionally gives the budget presentation and I would do that but I'd like to have Katarina come in because she's new and because we're slowly it feels like inextricably working towards a bond vote for some recreation facilities and I'd like to have Rachel come in because the library has a pretty significant budget change so I thought those two would be appropriate if there's no objection just weave that into the presentation Rebecca would need to know that they're both not Monteverry residents thank you yeah under article 7 you have Katarina's key because maybe what could happen is there's a question about recreation in the whole library Rachel came last year she was in the audience and she attended the full meeting if there were to be questions and there were not specific library questions so I guess in my mind it's the proactive presentation I'd like to have Rachel and Katarina give short proactive presentations and they're interested in doing that too totally agree yeah we'll do the your presentation and I'd like to ask my recreation director whatever the title is to speak to recreation and then I'll say Katarina, I can't remember Katarina's last name but anyway it's resident of blah blah blah there's no objection she'll be allowed to speak and then my cheek is you'll do the next thing you'll say but to have Rachel speak to the library we'll do the same thing resident of blah blah blah I think that moved on smoothly yeah do we remember who made the did you make the budget motion last year, Rachel? I did, no and did you, I guess I'm thinking that of your structure just regarding like pre-amble once again Belchablich is not here but it's like it's the board's budget speak to the budget, obviously you want Tom and the department heads to speak so I'm just thinking around obviously I will make the long flowering motion speak in three or four sentences that we're all comfortable with regarding our process do you recall physically how detailed you were did you make any remarks beyond reading the motion? all I just said was that I had reviewed the budget and then I wholeheartedly supported and recommended for passage I don't think I said much more than that I think I complimented Tom for keeping it affordable yeah I think from the select board's point of view if there's something in particular that you've discussed while you were developing the budget like you were trying to keep it to a certain tax rate for that specific initiatives that you wanted to make sure are included I think that's good for people to hear like that was the select board and put it into the budget but short is also what was appreciated sounds like you took the time to thank Bill and introduce Tom based on my notes I have a question I know it's going to be controversial but the only place I could see is being done in other business because it's not binding because I'm sure people are going to have issues with the school budget that's all Australian ballot based and they have their information meeting the night before do we want to even address the school budget issues could they do that under other business? I don't know if we do but I wouldn't be surprised that may come up yeah they can they can talk about they can talk about issues th