This episode was prerecorded as part of a live continuing education webinar. On-demand CEUs are still available for this presentation through all CEUs. Register at allceus.com slash counselor toolbox. I'd like to welcome everybody to today's presentation, Crisis Intervention Promoting Resilience and Resolution. This is a textbook or a book. It's not really a text. It's a, you know, little paperback, but it is an old book that I actually used when I was in graduate school, but I've hung on to it because I found it to be exceedingly helpful in helping me remember some crisis intervention techniques and teach crisis intervention not only to students, but also to supervisees. So it's a book that I really, really like. If you can find it at the library or get it used on Amazon, I would strongly recommend it, but, you know, it's my personal preference. So it's obvious, obviously up to you. Over in the next little while, we're going to talk about resilience and transcendence as it applies to crisis intervention. We will look at the change process in crisis resolution. We will also look at how to make contact with people when they're in crisis and exactly how much power it has just to connect with someone. You don't have to fix it. You don't have to make it better. You don't have to take away their pain. In fact, we don't want to take away their pain. It's theirs. If they want to give it to us, that's a whole different story. But just being there can be really, really helpful. Then we'll move on to how to make meaning from a crisis, transforming that narrative into something from which a person can grow instead of something that is going to make a person stuck or hold a person back. We'll talk about managing emotional arousal, envisioning the possibilities and using creative coping strategies. And finally, we'll kind of touch on crisis intervention with families. Obviously, we've got a lot to cover in the next hour. So I will cover it as quickly as possible. So crisis is a point of threat and opportunity. And a lot of times we think of crisis as just a threat. It's something bad that happened, but it's also an opportunity. It's a time to rewrite the narrative about how we deal with crisis, rewrite the narrative about our strengths and our resilience. And it's a time to maybe rewrite or re-examine what our priorities are. So it can be a great opportunity. Yes, there is, you know, the threat there. And we're going to have to learn how to walk that middle path when it comes to navigating crisis. The six facets of a crisis experience are the acronym basics, behavioral. When there's a crisis, we have a behavioral reaction. We have that fight-or-flight reaction that comes out. We have a lot of different urges that we feel when we want to either escape or fight whatever the threat is. We have emotional reactions. It can range from depression, anxiety, anger, terror, whatever is going on with that person and it's maybe a mixture of all of those grief, resentment, you know, a whole bunch of things. They are as they are. Our somatic experience. When we're in crisis, a lot of times we're not at our best. We're having difficulty kind of getting through day to day. We have changes in sleeping habits, changes in eating, physical complaints that happen during a crisis experience. Interpersonally, there may be some stress interpersonally. But there also may be a lot of good things interpersonally that happen. Cognitively, it's more difficult to focus in crisis. However, it can also highlight some of our strengths and resiliencies as individuals.  There's a lot of impact when a crisis happens because it basically turns your world upside down. Whatever the crisis is, if it's a natural disaster, you're sitting there going, well, you know, that was really scary. That was really awful and it was unpredictable. If it was a hurricane, you had like a week to predict, but it wasn't something that you could be prepared for ahead of time and know exactly what was going to happen. So we want to think about crises in a very, very broad, very, very broad spectrum, crime victims. That's generally one of the things we naturally think of when we think of crisis. Someone's in crisis because they've been victimized. Okay. So behaviorally, what may be going on with them? They may want to withdraw. They may not want to be around other people. They may start shutting down. Affectively, emotionally, there may be some devastation, fear, a certain amount of shock. Somatic, we have the internal things that I already discussed, upset tummies, difficulty sleeping, changes in eating habits. Interpersonally, they may become more clingy or they may become more withdrawn from others. Cognitively, it's a lot more difficult to focus. The way you conceptualize the world, the way you interpret the world as being good and safe or however you interpreted it, is change now. So every time something happens, you need to think about it in terms of this new pseudo reality. And I say pseudo reality because when a person is still recovering from crisis, when they are still working on transcending the crisis, it's not a concrete reality for them yet. Everything is still sort of in flux. And spiritually, a crisis being victimized is going to impact how people look at other people, how people look at the world in general. Now, it doesn't mean it has to change it for the worse. It doesn't mean it has to always stay negative, but it may point out that not everybody is a safe person. Another kind of crisis is the death of a loved one. And when you're thinking about people in crisis, I want you to really think broadly, just like we've talked broadly about losses. Think broadly about what crises may look like for people. Natural disasters, already talked about that. The other thing we don't talk about a lot is secondary trauma by the media in children. And am I putting a lot of emphasis on the media? Yes, I am. I remember, well, just about any major thing that happens, whether it's an airplane crash, a hurricane, the 9-11. There are many, many, many examples where there has been some sort of major crisis and the media has played it over and over and over and over again. To a small child who's seeing this, they are interpreting that it's an ongoing situation, not something that happened that we're just continuing to talk about three weeks later. Likewise, even if the child is not watching it on TV, the child is hearing the parents and, you know, the other adults still talking about it three weeks later, because the other adults are still seeing the media's portrayal of it three weeks later. And a lot of times it's focused on the negatives, not how to be resilient, how to transcend this, but, oh my gosh, how did this hit us from out of the clear blue? And we're still in shock. We're still trying to figure out how to pick up the pieces. So children, naturally, are going to become a lot more stressed and be traumatized, not directly, but indirectly, by all of that ambiguity, all of that fear, all of that terror. And like I said, just seeing it ongoing and not being able to understand in their little brains, this happened three weeks ago. And we're just still talking about it. So validation of the experience is crucial. And I added an E onto the end of their acronym. In the book, it talks about love, L-U-V. I added the E because I really think it's important to explore client strengths. But love means listen. Listen to what they have to say. And this can be the victim. This can be the survivor. This can be the child. Understand their perspective. Put yourself in their shoes for a little while and see what it looks like. What does it feel like to be them? And if you were in their shoes, how might it affect how you look at things? Remember with children, they think very dichotomously, especially young children. So they're not able to walk that middle path and look at, okay, well, there are some people that will do bad things, but most people are good. It's like all good or all bad or I can't tell. They don't have the knowledge. They don't have the experience to really interpret things. So it's up to us as their adult caregivers to help them figure out and understand a little bit more, A, about what happened, but B, about what their feelings are. Why are they having nightmares? Why are they feeling stressed out? Children don't understand and they don't have that level of mindfulness. And even if they did, they'd know they felt icky, but they wouldn't really understand why. You know, we, a six-year-old doesn't understand the fight-or-flight concept. It's up to us to help them understand what's going on, which means we've got to understand it from their perspective and validate. Validation is so important. We've talked about this in dialectical behavior therapy and we will continue to talk about this throughout a lot of different classes. A person feels how a person feels and it's not our place to tell them they're overreacting. It's not our place to tell them that doesn't make any sense. They feel how they feel, so we need to help them name it and then figure out what to do with it, which takes us down to exploring their strengths. When you felt this way before, when something has pulled the rug out from under you before, what did you do? How did you survive? Because you're here. You survived it. So tell me what helped. You know, it may have not have done everything. You may have really struggled and that's okay, but you are here. So that's really what we want to focus on is what the strengths were that got you through this and helped you transcend that situation that sort of turned your world upside down. While we're trying to understand transcendence, we also need to understand a little bit about the change process. Chaos theory says that chaotic symptoms systems are predictable for a while and then appear to become random. So something happens and there's a predictable outcome from it, but then all of a sudden it kind of goes awry. Each point in a chaotic system is close to other points with significantly different future paths. An arbitrarily small change of the current path may lead to significantly different future behavior. Okay, so what does that mean? That means that you're walking along and if you're like me, I'm very ADD sometimes and I'm just like squirrel. But well, I'll give you a perfect example of chaos of my mind. I was leading a group in my adolescent treatment facility and I'm sitting there talking to them and there was a dining room behind us and a door that went outside so they could take the trash out. And past that door, there was an oak tree and I'm teaching the class and all of a sudden in the middle of class, I see this great big squirrel running up the oak tree. And I love squirrels and they knew that so they weren't really all that surprised and all of a sudden I just was like, oh, squirrel. The clients were like, what? I'm like, big squirrel is climbing up the tree. And you know, this was something they knew to expect from me at this point, but it was a very small thing that totally changed the direction of that group. I was just like talking about whatever I was talking about and then we started talking about squirrels. Whoops. Now, you can choose once you diverge to go back to the original path. Another example would be if you take somebody, two people from the same family who experience roughly the same things, but one develops addictive behaviors and the other one does not. What happened? What was the arbitrarily small change that pushed one person over toward addictive behaviors and the other one not? So we want to look at what's going on, but we also want to look at what arbitrarily small changes we can put in there, positive changes to help somebody go on to a more positive path. Crisis is this big event. So as they're trying to get back on their feet again, they've got to figure out what to do. We can help them choose small changes that will help lead them toward a survivor or transcendent perspective instead of getting stuck feeling angry and afraid. Combining that with complexity theory, complexity theory emphasizes the interactions in the accompanying feedback loops constantly change systems. So again, let's take the person in crisis. They are struggling. They are not sleeping well. They're not eating well. They don't feel safe. They're crying all the time. So we go in there and we start talking to them and we say, okay, what are you ready to address? What do you think is your most problematic symptom right now? And the person says, I just I need to get some sleep. I'm exhausted. So we help them figure out how to get some sleep. If the person starts feeling a little bit more rested, then they're going to have more feedback. They're going to feel a little less overwhelmed and life on life's terms isn't going to feel quite as daunting, which will mean that they can probably relax a little bit more on their own and rest a little bit better on their own. So it's this progressive positive feedback loop. Likewise, if you take someone who's in crisis and I'm thinking back to hurricanes and you put them in a situation where they're constantly stressed, put them into a shelter where there's, you know, 30 other people or 300 other people. There's noise. There's no safety. There is no privacy. Think about how that affects somebody. It makes them irritable. When somebody's irritable and then they're probably going to be a little less patient with other people. If they're less patient with other people, tempers flare, things intensify negatively. So complexity theory really encourages you to look at those feedback loops. But it also says that systems are unpredictable but constrained by order generating rules. So you've got people in this facility in this shelter and they don't have a home anymore. They're all dealing with devastating loss. They're all in some amount of crisis. So there's a lot of unpredictability about how they're going to behave. But guess what? Everybody is going to choose or nearly everybody is going to choose the behavior that is most rewarding to them at that point in time. So they may, some people may look for the longer term reward of just getting through this. Some people may look for the reward of right now. What's going to make me feel better or numb right now. But ultimately behavior is driven by rewards. Individual behaviors and choices are more important than executive plans in an organization or in a system. So we need to look at not what the big reward is. The big reward is everybody getting a home, getting out of the shelter. The big reward is people feeling safe. The big reward is catching the criminal that committed the acts so he or she can't do that again. Sure. However, that does not change what's going on with the individual. We need to focus on each person. When someone is victimized, you have the primary victim and they're going to behave in a certain way. Whatever is working for them. But then you also have other people in that system, their spouse, their children, their family. Anybody who's providing support or not providing support that is going to have an impact. So we would like the family to come together. We would like the family to form a cohesive unit. But that may not happen. We need to look at the individual behaviors to make sure that each individual's behavior is supporting cohesion. If mom over here is just not able to cope, then and child is the one that got victimized. And we need to figure out how to help child and mom navigate that in order to get to the best goal, in order to get to the resolution we want. We do need to focus on the impact of individual behaviors because if mom is continues to fail to thrive, if you will, it's going to have a negative impact on the primary victim or junior. The focus needs to be on self-organization instead of management control. I want to empower people to start taking control of identifying what their strengths are, what they need, how they're feeling and becoming aware, you know, mindfully of what's going on within them. What are their feelings? What are their reactions? And what do they need? And I encourage them to use small changes in interventions. This is not the time to kind of try to turn the world upside down again. What is it that's going to help you get through today? What is it that's going to help you sleep tonight? Small changes. And if you sleep tonight, how are you going to feel better in the morning? What's going to be the benefit to getting a good sleep tonight? We don't have to focus. And actually, initially, it's probably not helpful unless the client wants to to focus on the crisis itself. What I want to focus on is the resilience. I want to focus on how can you make this into something that from which you can grow. We want to encourage conflict and change. Now, that sounds weird. You're going, well, we're trying to help them get better. Why are we encouraging conflict? Part of the conflict is their internal conflict saying, I can't handle this. And then encouraging them to get that strengths-based voice going, yes, you can. So they have an internal conflict going in their head. And we say, okay, if we want to make this positive voice stronger, what can they do to change? What is it that you need to do to prove to yourself that you can? This encouraging conflict may seem to push a person into an unstable situation, but they can gain improvements from the healthy edge of chaos. They can push themselves past their comfort zone. Maybe they want to go and just lay down and sleep and they don't want to see people and they want to withdraw. I hear that and I really get where that's coming from. However, the the other option is getting up and going to group and putting one foot in front of the other. Let's weigh our options. Do a little decisional balance exercise. You know, I love those and help people try to find the motivation to get outside their comfort zone, to move past that safety of staying in bed, to help them transcend where they're at right now because nothing is going to be the same. Now that whatever this crisis is has happened, they have changed as human beings forever and the situation has changed forever. So three principles to remember. Large changes result from small changes, that butterfly effect. You can Google that online if you want to look at it. But remembering that a small thing, a small thing like getting your circadian rhythms right. So making sure you get out of bed in the morning and open the blinds, get dressed. You know, those are three different things, but that can have a huge effect on your ability to sleep, your sense of agitation and you know, we can go on from there.  Nutrition, reaching out to people, going about your daily life again, starting to get back into a routine. Change can begin suddenly and resolve rapidly. So you know, think about Microsoft updates. If you've ever been working on your computer and all of a sudden the sucker just shuts down. I hate it when it does that because it doesn't say where I'm at. But anyway, I digress. It just shuts down and you're like, oh my gosh, what just happened? And then it comes up with that little spinny thing that says Microsoft is updating. But this resolves rapidly. You don't have to. It's not an ongoing thing where you've got to call that a technician. It resolves itself. When it's given enough time to install the updates and reboot. My daughter made a similar analogy we recently had to put down one of our animals. And she's like, you know, for me, when something like this happens, it's kind of like when the computer installs updates, it just shuts down. And you know, I just don't feel anything for the longest time. And then it does that thing where it reboots. And it seems like it's never going to start again. And I can't seem to feel feelings. But then when it does reboot, you know, it comes back on and that's wonderful. But I've got to figure out what to do with all this new stuff, all these updates because everything's changed. I'm like, what a great analogy. So, you know, we're really wanting to help people understand what's going on but not think that this happened. This was some big tragedy and it's going to just hold them down and hold them back and be an albatross for six months or a year or five years. I'm not saying it won't impact them. You know, obviously things are going to change. However, we need to respect the fact that they may not be stuck for a long period of time. And change is a complete reordering. Something new emerges and nothing is ever the same. So, it's important to look at that and there's going to be a grieving process. Part of transcendence is grieving the loss of what was, how you viewed the world before, whether it's your loss of innocence or your loss of faith in people or your loss of, you know, I could go on, but I won't. Helping people grieve that loss but also embrace what's new and how cool it is. I mean, think about the caterpillar.  He's a cute little fuzzy guy and I like caterpillars. But when they emerge as butterflies, they're never going to be a caterpillar again, but isn't the butterfly amazing and beautiful in its own right? So what about solution versus resolution? Solutions are largely outside yourself. You can add stronger security. You can get a dog. You can alter your behavior. So maybe if, if something happened where you were victimized going to your car in a parking garage at night, you might alter your behavior. So you carry mace.  So you don't have to go to your car after dark. There are a lot of different behavioral alterations that you can go through, but these are outside of yourself. These are making your surroundings more controllable. Resolutions on the other hand are internal events, alterations in mood, choosing to look at some of the happy things and choosing to be happy. And depending on the crisis, there may be some guilt associated with surviving. There may be some guilt associated with being happy. And as clinicians, we can help them help people identify that and work through it. But resolution is when the mood alters and people can feel happy again. The happy chemicals are going. There's a shift in thinking from being a victim to a survivor, from being devastated to being able to transcend or to cope with, looking at and recognizing how much stronger a person is than they thought they were. And it can involve a change of heart, where instead of looking at things from a negative perspective, from a victim's perspective, there's an optimism of, wow, okay, you know, things are changed and I really don't like the way it happened. However, what can I do to make this new reality even better than the past one? I referred in the beginning to the power of connecting. Social supports are an extremely powerful buffer. When I've worked with people with PTSD, when I've taught classes on PTSD and the research has shown that the most important time to get social support is within the first 24 hours, ideally within the first two to four hours. And you may be thinking, well, that's awful fast. Well, think about it.    You don't want to be waiting around at some shelter for a while and for 24 hours before somebody calls you and says, wow, I heard what happened. How can I help? The best time for people to help is in the first two to four hours because at that point everything is still fluid and people can come in, they can help and they can help buffer the stress. So when the memories start to be formed, it's not formed in a state of being in isolation and devastation. Connecting to others is a fundamental human need. Whether we like it or not, not everybody has 150 friends. Some people have one or two, but that's okay. That's the one or two they need. And it's personal, depending on the individual. So I'm not going to encourage people to reach out and find 30 friends, but who is it that you want beside you if you're having a crisis? This is one of those things that I talk about with people early in treatment for anything because most likely during treatment at some point in time, there is going to be a crisis. We're going to precipitate something. We're going to start talking about something that precipitates a crisis. So encouraging them to think ahead of time of who are my social supports that I really want to connect with and how can I nurture those relationships? We're hardwired to help each other. Whether you want to admit it or not, most people are very, very hardwired to reach out and lend a helping hand. Part of this is because humans develop empathy even before verbal skills. Think about a baby. A baby can't talk yet. A baby doesn't really understand what people are saying, but if mom gets upset, what does the baby do? Baby gets upset. If mom's happy, no, the baby's not always happy, but generally the baby is happier than he or she would have been if mom were in some sort of emotional turmoil. So humans learn to be very receptive, or what's the word I'm looking for? Perceptive of other humans' emotional states. We're designed to help each other out. So the power of connecting is huge and is there from birth? We need other people. If you're trying to help someone who is in crisis, use reaching out questions. What is it that I can do to help you? Instead of saying, this is what you need now, engage them, ask for their input about what they need. How is it that I can help you through this? Provide encouragement. Acknowledge that this is a really awful situation. This is a crisis.  If it's a crisis for them, it's a crisis. So we want to acknowledge this and go, this feels like it's the end of the world. Now, I've told you before, I've got teenagers at home. And with teenagers, crises seem to happen on a pretty much day-to-day basis. So, you know, we want to acknowledge the crisis experience and help them figure out how to work through it. Make positive observations about how well they're doing in the situation. Make positive observations about what supports are around. We don't want to focus on how poorly they're coping. Obviously, we want to highlight their strengths. I don't want to minimize how they're feeling, but I also want to observe how strong they're being. Be tentative rather than authoritative, owning your impressions. So this kind of goes with the positive observations. Instead of going, you are coping so well that you could say something more tentative, like, you know, based on what I'm seeing, you know, a lot of people would really be struggling. It seems like you feel like you've got to handle on this at least a little bit right now. You know, I can hedge with the best of them. Highlight the survivor in the crisis. What did this person do that helped them survive? It took a lot of strength for you to get through that and to call 911. It took a lot of strength for you to pack up your family and get to the shelter and not know what was happening to your house. Invite the person to talk or not about the experience. And like I said earlier, not everybody is ready to talk about the crisis right then. We want to let them move through this process, write their narrative in their time, because there's going to be a certain amount of shock and denial at first. Like we talked earlier, every crisis involves a loss, a loss of the way the world was before the crisis. So there's going to be a grieving process. And if you just kind of think about that, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, shock and denial happens and it can happen for quite a while for some people, especially if they don't have a lot of support early on. Why is this? In many cases, the person will not be able to go there, their being dealing with the trauma until they have adequate social support. That's one of the cool things about our brain. It just keeps, stays in that denial stage until the person can start trying to deal with it because they have the resources. Crisis can shatter people's assumptions about the world. Some things that obviously change sometimes in a crisis, the world is benevolent. Maybe, maybe not. So if this happens, looking at what parts of the world are benevolent, what parts of the world are good and positive? I had a, I was getting in my car this morning and I had a bunny run out. It was a big old bunny. I love bunnies. Animals tend to be something that makes me happy, something that's nice. I know they don't, they're not always nice to each other, but not everything in the world is going to harm me. Another assumption, the world is meaningful and predictable. No, sometimes bad things happen to good people and it doesn't make any sense. And sometimes you can't predict when things are going to happen. However, what can you do to make meaning and what things are meaningful now? I mean, once something happens, let's figure out how to make meaning out of it. You can't always predict what's going to happen. So what parts of this are in your control and what parts aren't and what can you do about that? The self is worthy and life is fair. You may be very worthy, but you may not get everything that you feel you deserve. So how do you deal with that? Because life is not fair. It happens. And these are just a couple of the assumptions, but they're the, some of the main assumptions that most people hold as certain point in their life. Now, these assumptions may be dashed when they're 10 or they may not be dashed until they're 24 or older. But at a certain point, people start stop thinking in the dichotomy of the whole world is always benevolent. That's not the way it happens. So let's reframe this and figure out what parts are. As humans, we need to create meaning for ourselves. So if you're a victim of crime or if someone dies, how do you make meaning out of that? How does that fit into your schema of the world? We want to encourage at some point, people to tell their story. Survivors often have slightly different accounts of the crisis each time they tell it. Sometimes and, you know, probably well-meaning, but ill-trained people may look at that and say you must be lying or why are you changing your story now? Changing recollections are the result of trying to find meaning and resolve the crisis. You remember it a little bit differently. You're like, well, maybe this happened because it's not because somebody's trying to make it up. It's because their brain is trying to assimilate or accommodate what's happening. Go back to Piaget. It's important for survivors to understand they're not crazy. It's important for survivors to understand that their story may change a little bit or their recollection may change a little bit. I try to avoid the word story as much as possible because a lot of times people feel like that says that they're making something up. And I know that they're not. It's their narrative of what happened. So recollection and narrative are two words that I try to use a little bit more. Encourage them to write things down, as they tell it, that way they can go back and revisit the recollections because you know what? I bet each part or each time they tell it, new parts will come up and eventually you can merge those all together and come up with something that's cohesive and tells a more thorough picture of what happened. Help clients rectify discrepancies by pointing out positive change or evidence of strengths. So sometimes it might change and there's no factual basis for it. However, the way they're remembering it now is a way that makes them come out stronger, makes them feel less victimized. That's not always bad. And listen for the hero in the tragedy. How is it that you came out of this? What is it in you that helped you survive this? And there are a lot of excellent dialogues in the book that demonstrate how to help listen for the hero and rectify discrepancies. So I would encourage you to look at that. The narrative can be used to help people explore the bigger picture. So when people write what happened, they write it from a pretty narrow tunnel vision perspective. So we can help them broaden and say, okay, this is what you saw. Now, what else was going on? Where was so-and-so during this? Who else was there to help? What else may have contributed to this situation? The narrative can be continued into a positive resolution. So once you get past now, you know, whatever happened happened, that's in the past. You are trying to transcend it. That's the present. So what is it going to look like when you have transcended the situation? So some of the questions you might ask might be, what have you discovered about yourself now that you've gone through all this and you've survived it? What sense can you make of what happened and where you are right now? What do you see as the purpose for this? Or even what keeps you going through this difficult time? If people are still not there, they haven't transcended it, but they're going, they're putting one foot in front of the other. They're coming to their appointments. They're maybe even going to work. That's awesome. So how are you doing that? Because some people wouldn't be able to. What is it that is motivating you right now? The narrative can be explored in terms of focus and character development. So we want to look at not only the victim's perspective or the survivor's perspective, but we also want to look at the perspective from other people. When something happens, there are often a lot of other people that are blamed. And we can look at it from their perspective.  Well, let's put ourselves in FEMA's position and explore what it might have been like to be at the FEMA offices at that point in time. That doesn't take away your feelings of whatever's going on, but it helps expand the narrative so people can get a resolution. Blaming doesn't ever end in resolution. Blaming helps people or encourages people to stay angry. And point fingers. So we need to look at what could be done differently next time or was there anything else that this person or organization could have done to avert the crisis? Managing emotional arousal. People in crisis experience fear, anger and grief. You're like, well, yeah, but they also experience positive emotions, resolve, courage, compassion, hope. We want to highlight these. Anything they do or say that highlights their resolve to keep going, their courage in the face of adversity, their compassion for others and themselves and hope that they can get better. Hope that this will resolve itself and they will be able to move on. I don't want to minimize the distressful emotions, but I want to balance. I want them to see that these two things can exist concurrently. Handling distress. Catharsis is not necessary. Some people need a cathartic release. They need to, you know, go out and run. They need to punch a punching bag. They need to primal scream, whatever works for them. But not everybody does. Some people manage it more cognitively. So if someone's not crying, if someone's not screaming, if someone doesn't seem out early, just completely overwhelmed, that doesn't mean that they are not handling their distress. We want to encourage them to express how they're feeling and what they're thinking in a way that's meaningful for them. And then we want to arouse resolve. You know, there may be some resolve, but we want to bolster this. Performance quality is curviliner, creepy linear in proportion to emotional resolve. What does that mean? That means as performance quality goes up, the emotional arousal goes up as well. But at a certain point, if you get too emotionally aroused, your performance quality goes way down. We all know this. We know that a little stress will help us meet that deadline, but a lot of stress, we're just going to sit there and kind of twiddle our thumbs and have writers block or not be able to get it done. A little bit of stress is necessary. That's the cortisol. That's the norepinephrine that says, hey, there's a little bit of a threat. There's something we need to do. We need to get out of bed and do something. So once they figure out what that resolve is, then we need to help them envision this possibilities. What are your goals now? This has changed everything. So what are your goals for a week from now, a month from now, six months from now? Create goals that are positive, not getting rid of depression, but what are you going to do positively that will increase your happiness? Use a goal statement such as when you achieve this, when you achieve a greater state of happiness, when you feel safer, what is that going to look like? And then use scaling. So on a scale from one to 10, right now the crisis just happened. You're at a one. You've got some work to do. So what is it to look like and what will get you there? If you're going to feel safer, you know, we'll just use that for this example. What is it going to take to get you to feel a little bit safer in your own home tonight? Or maybe it's not your own home. Maybe part of feeling safer is sleeping somewhere else. What gets you to a three, a four, a five? Have them define what each step looks like and identify what it's going to take to get there. Once they do that, generally they'll see that it's not, I mean, 10 steps is a lot of steps, but most of the time they're small steps so they can be accomplished pretty quickly. We also want to examine current behaviors in terms of creative coping. If somebody's drinking more, if somebody's sleeping more, if somebody tends to be more irritable and lashing out, we might automatically think of those as negative. But from a creative coping standpoint, I'm going to say, okay, let's look at what function that's serving. If you're drinking more, it's numbing the pain. It's helping you survive till right and until you can get through this. Now it's not fixing anything, but it is a creative way of trying to survive. So let's look at other ways you can do this. If you're sleeping all the time, your body is plumb exhausted. You have been on high alert for either a really long time or really, really high alert for a short period of time and you're exhausted. You can't deal with anything else. You can't deal with other people. You can't deal with work. You just can't deal because you are out of gas. So sleeping a lot makes sense to me. Now, that's not where you want to be forever, but it makes sense. And if you're lashing out, people who are in crisis make it irritable and angry and just push everybody away. Again, it makes perfect sense. If you are barely keeping it together, dealing with just life on life's terms and getting up day to day and brushing your teeth, then other people's drama and other people's input, even if it's positive, maybe too much stimulation, you're already overstimulated. So it makes sense that your natural reaction is to push away the extra stimulus so you don't get overwhelmed. How can we deal with that? I really want people to see how their behaviors are very rational given the unusual circumstances. Educate people about common behavioral changes in response to stress or crisis. So it doesn't catch them off guard and they can go, okay, you know, I'm more irritable right now. I know where this is coming from. Or, okay, my kid's wet in the bed now. I know where this is coming from. Or he or she, the child, wants to sleep in my bed every night. I understand the meaning behind this. I can address it. Once people understand the function, it becomes a lot clearer. If a child is completely acting out and losing it, you want to say what is it that they're looking for? Are they looking for structure? Are they looking, do they need a timeout? Are they overstimulated? We want to look at the function of the behavior as a rational response to help them survive. And then we want to encourage people to use resources. What else is out there? You don't have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders by yourself. Want somebody else help? Most places have a united way that can help people find resources, whether they need food, clothing, shelter, counseling, crisis counseling. There's a variety of resources out there that are available. Encourage people to reach out. That's what they're there for. Other things that we as clinicians can do and supportive people can do is refer to the acute crisis in the past tense. When the person broke into your house, when the hurricane came, when your father died, back then, but then describe resolution and coping in the present tense. You know, that was devastating. Currently, you are having difficulty sleeping or you're wanting to sleep a lot more. Let's look at how that makes sense. You know, why is that happening? And what else can we do? How can we help you resolve it in a way that you want to resolve it? Special cases, flashbacks and nightmares. Again, a lot of this is semantics. Have been were versus you are. If somebody's having flashbacks, that's putting them back in that situation. So let's leave that situation back there. You have been having flashbacks. You have been having nightmares when you go to sleep. You're right now, number one, you're awake, but if I say you are having flashbacks or you are having nightmares, that indicates that I'm expecting the person will have another one tonight. Now, maybe I am, but we want to plant the seed that they can move past that. So use the flashbacks and nightmares. Use the past tense when we're talking about the crisis stuff. Before you, you know, whatever the crisis was, what were you doing? We want to look at how their life was different before or the same before and what they want to do in the future. Transform crisis metaphors. If somebody says I feel trapped, okay, I get that. When you begin to escape from the trap, what's the first thing you're going to do? You know, if you've been a victim before, you can understand feeling paralyzed in your own fear. So when you start feeling less paralyzed, what's the first thing you're going to do? If somebody says they feel overwhelmed, you might suggest it's a lot to handle on your own. You know, this is a really unusual circumstance that nobody should have to go through on their own.  If they say, I don't know. Okay, well, let's turn the tables. If this happened to your best friend, when she was ready for help, what do you think she would want you to do? What would you want to do for her? And then start exploring how to answer the original question of what do you want or need other people to do for you? Reframing the situational context from global to specific. I will never feel safe again. The world, everywhere I turn is dangerous. Okay, so let's look for exceptions to that. Emphasize the specific. You know, maybe living in Florida, there are hurricanes. Living in California, there are earthquakes. But hurricanes and earthquakes aren't everywhere. So let's look at situationally. You know, is everywhere dangerous? Or can we find some safety? Temporal context, stable versus ongoing, versus changeable or time limited. The hurricane ends. The crisis ends. The, you know, things will end. So we want to encourage people to look at whatever happened in terms of a event, a time limited event. And normalize negative cognitions. I should have done this. I can hear where you feel like you should have whatever. So we want to talk about that. And we want to talk about how people may feel guilty for feeling happy. We may want to talk about any of their negative self-talk. I don't want to take it away from them because it's up to them to choose when they're ready to move on to the transcendent. However, we do want to point out that a lot of people in crisis recovery have some negative thoughts. We want to enhance the emotion of resolve. Look for exceptions to the distress. So encourage them to keep daily inventories of how the day went and maybe noticing when it's a little half step better than it was yesterday. And tomorrow may not be, you know, there may be a back backward step but encourage them to look for the positive glimmers of hope. Ask presumptive questions like, when things improve, what's going to be different? This encourages them to look for those things in their daily inventories. And reflect those emotions that you're hearing, those emotions of resolve going, I hear that you are doing your best to get through this and come out the other end stronger. And finally, moving on, questions would be as you begin to resolve this time in your life, how are things going to be different? If we're not into that global of a statement, we can say, you know, let's focus on today. When you leave here today, what do you see the first thing you're going to do? Or what do you see as your next step? What are you going to do between now and our next meeting? Depending on what level of crisis the person is in, your questions are going to be longer or more immediate focused. But we want to encourage small forward steps. Finding the pony. I love this one. We're almost to the end of the class. Parents tried to teach their son that life wasn't fair by making him shovel a room full of manure. When the parents returned after eight hours, the child was very, very happy and still diligently working. And the parents were very confused. They're like, you just shoveled manure for eight hours. He's like, yeah, but with all the poop in this room, there must be a horse in here somewhere, helping people find the pony, look for what they can create or what they're hoping to find once they clear out all of the stuff. When families or couples are in crisis, the system is in crisis and they may face some developmental crises. So we want to encourage them to learn how to listen, understand and validate each other and enhance each other's resolve for moving through the crisis. And there's three chapters on families, couples and groups in crisis in the book. I'm just kind of touching on it right now, obviously. Resilience and transcendence. We want to encourage people to look at their strengths and believe that they can move past this and develop or create something completely new and even better. The change process is very variable. It's based on what individuals do and people do things that are reward bearing. But any little change in the system can redirect a person's path. So they need to be aware of are they putting positive changes in their system or negative ones. Just the power of having someone there to help shoulder the burden is huge. They don't need to fix it. But the power of connecting is vital in recovery from crisis. As people start to recover, we want to encourage them to transform the crisis narrative into one of survival. You know, the crisis happened. Right now, you're trying to figure out what to do with it. So what's the next chapter? What does the end of the book look like? Help them learn how to manage emotional arousal and what to expect in early crisis resolution. Encourage them to envision the possibilities of what this transcendence is going to be like. What is their butterfly going to be once it emerges from the cocoon? And highlight any strategies they're using as creative coping strategies to help them survive. But also encourage them to identify alternate, healthier ways if the ways they're using are unhealthy. If you enjoy this podcast, please like and subscribe either in your podcast player or on YouTube. If you want to attend and participate in our live webinars with Dr. Snipes, you can subscribe at hgtbs.com. This episode has been brought to you in part by allceus.com providing 24-7 multimedia continuing education and pre-certification training to counselors, therapists, and nurses since 2006. You can use coupon code, counselor toolbox, to get 20% off of your current order. If you're a podcast listener, especially on an Apple device, it would be extremely helpful if you would review counselor toolbox. To do this on your Apple device, go to the podcast app. Search for counselor toolbox. Select the icon for the podcast. Tap the reviews tab in the middle. You should then see an option to click write a review. We love to seek five-star reviews. So if there's anything we can do to make this podcast even better for you, please email us at support at allceus.com. If you enjoy this podcast, please like and subscribe either in your podcast player or on YouTube. If you want to attend and participate in our live webinars with Dr. Snipes, you can subscribe at HTTPS colon slash slash allceus.com slash counselor toolbox. This episode has been brought to you in part by allceus.com providing 24-7 multimedia continuing education and pre-certification training to counselors, therapists, and nurses since 2006. You can use coupon code, counselor toolbox, to get 20% off of your current order. If you're a podcast listener, especially on an Apple device, it would be extremely helpful if you would review counselor toolbox. To do this on your Apple device, go to the podcast app. Search for counselor toolbox. Select the icon for the podcast. Tap the reviews tab in the middle. You should then see an option to click write a review. We love to seek five-star reviews. So if there's anything we can do to make this podcast even better for you, please email us at support at allceus.com.


The music industry is facing one of the biggest crises to date. To date. To date. Problem number one is an expectation for modern artists to spend a significant amount of their time, creativity and energy on certain social media platforms, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, wherever, having to spend so much creative energy on things beyond the music itself. I can imagine that it takes a toll on the music.


Hey, I'm Celeste on Sprout with Cali to be entertainment and I'm here with my friend Sarah today and we're here to test out the best pickup lines so y'all don't have to. And let's see if we can also land any dates. Good things back. Back on Sprout. Celeste back. Come hang out. Are you a major because I'd like to declare you a hottie? Goodbye. Excuse me, I think you dropped something actually. Your standards? I'm Celeste. There's something on your face. Oh, it's just beauty. If you were a steak, you'd be well done. Thank you. That's all you're giving me? Really? You couldn't think of anything better than thank you. Tie your shoes. I don't want you falling for anyone else. I'm out of words. He's out of words. He's speechless because of me. I'm not drunk. I'm just intoxicated by you. By me? Who am I? Please let me know. Hi there. I was blinded by your beauty. Is it okay if I have your name and number for insurance purposes? My love for you guys is like diarrhea. I just can't hold it in. I kind of missed the joke. I didn't hear it, but yeah. Can I borrow a kiss? I promise I'll give it back. That's a good one. Basic needs. Are you oxygen? Because I need you. Do you know if there's an airport nearby or is it just my heart taking off? Oh my god. Wait, that was so cute. That just made my day. Oh, thanks. That's a great day. Thank you. Hey, my name's Microsoft. Can I crash at your place tonight? Goodbye, sir. Aside from being sexy, what do you do for a living? I don't know. Date you? I'm down.  I don't play Quidditch. Okay, but you can still be a keeper. Oh, excuse me. You're so fine. I don't even need Berkeley dogs on you. Thank you. Y'all yeet, baby. Did I just say y'all yeet? Hey, what do you think my dress material is made out of? Silk? Girlfriend material. Excuse me. Are you trash? I take you out. I'm not. No. Because there's trash right behind me. I came over that one on the spot. Do you believe in love at first sight or should I pass by again? Pass by one more time. Oh, yeah, baby. Are you a dictionary? Because you're adding meaning to my life. Okay, great. Thanks. I have that effect on people. Just leave them speechless. Maybe it's secondhand embarrassment. Who knows? Do you have a pencil because I'd like to erase your past and rewrite our future? Sure. Oh, excuse me. On a scale of one to 10, you're nine and I'm the one that you lack. Damn. Marry me, please. I'm so down. I just saw the craziest upsexy. What? What's upsexy? Nothing much. What about you, baby? Oh, hey. Excuse me. Are you free tonight? Because my camera woman is. Word. Word. You can't get mad at me. I'm literally just trying to get you a date tonight. Can you hold this? What's a smart, attractive person like yourself doing without my phone number? What? Well, do you want me to say what's a smart, attractive person like yourself doing without my phone number? Um, I don't know. I don't. That's that's fine. I don't know how I'm still single. I'm so good at this.   We're gonna edit that out. Okay. Thanks for watching and hopefully you guys are able to figure out a pickup line for this weekend. And here's one more for you. Are you from Tennessee because you should give this video a thumbs up? We'll take it.


Hi everyone, Sean with jaspyscasebrakes.com doing a 2020 Panini Don Russ Optic Choice 5 box break Pick your team number one release day We were just waiting for a chance to do one of these for the night. So We've got a fresh box That we're gonna be pulling this out of 20 boxes in this case. So we're gonna fresh case We're gonna pull these five boxes out of Here is the full list of customers and teams. Thank you very much to everyone that got into this So we can break this for the first time Why does this say New York Yankees are New York Yankees? Give me one second. Let me pause this real quick Okay, guys. We are back. It is fixed. The New York Yankees did not have themself in this break New York Yankees are going to Nancy Ripple. So we're gonna do this one sorted by team name Make it easy for us to figure out where the hits are. So New York Yankees there, Nancy Ripple Joe Crowell last spot mojo Washington Nationals. Thank you very much, Joe Also got a couple other teams right before that last spot mojo 20 boxes in this case so we're going to open this up and Pull out all 20 boxes and figure out which five boxes we're gonna use for pick your team number one We'll do them. We'll bunch them into break groups of five Here's the front Here's for I'll pick the next one in line Just to keep it normal.  Then there's these five, which will be the third stack Yes, you can see up here on the right on the full cam And then the last five will be stack number four We're gonna do roll it dice an actual physical dice To determine which stack of five we're gonna do for pick your team number one The other four to 15 boxes will actually be for pick your teams two three and four What's up, Greg? How are you? We are I'm still awake.  Thanks for making us part of your morning We're doing a our first optic choice baseball. We do have another break after this if you want to get on that very nice, it's a Finest flashbacks So here's our dice. We're gonna roll one two three or four if it's a five or six We're just gonna re-roll until we do hit one two or three or four So stack one is gonna be for one stack two for two stack three for three and stack four obviously for number four Good luck everyone And it's a two so looks like we're gonna go to stack number two there So I'm gonna number these one number three So that way they'll use these for the next ones And we'll know that these are the other stacks So they'll all stay together. I wish luck to the rest of them But I really hope that these are the this is one of the best five box breaks See there you go, Greg. I Waited for you this whole time It would have been better if you said you went to sleep to me and now you woke up to me Like I'm haunting your dreams Okay, here's the stack number two No, we're gonna be breaking right now Good luck everyone just watching some KBO even though we got our own baseball Still haven't figured it out guys our first look. I saw one personal box of this that was open tonight Stuff is looking real nice real real real nice. I'm gonna figure out how the setup is on this first pack See if they do like a Like base on the back or something like that Try to save the you know the autos and stuff for last So three autos per box So you get a nice little mix of stuff, you know what I mean? Rated prospect or autos rated rookie autos and everything in between So I'm gonna pull everything that's not the autos Which should be seven cards Okay First up Albert Pohl's That is number 245 Los Angeles Angels is going to Anthony Tetra next up Diamond Kings optic Kettle Marta For the Arizona Diamondbacks numbered 44 of 45 Arizona Diamondbacks Nick Galvin Eugenio Suarez For the Cincinnati Reds numbered 17 of 84 Cincinnati Reds Christopher freeze Miguel Cabrera Diamond Kings 19 of 84 for the Detroit Tigers and Matt Stubblefield Francisco Lindor for the Cleveland Indians Pedro Ailman 73 of 88 our first hollow Josh Donaldson for the Minnesota Twins and Eric Ainge no numbering on the hollow and The Atlanta Braves all-stars hollow Ronald Acuna, Jr. Atlanta Braves Richard Opless and our last non-auto Steven Strasburg Washington Nationals last spot mojo Joe Crowell Numbered 14 of 45 there you go Joe Now our autos first auto Rated rookie auto green mojo Dylan Cease for the Chicago White Sox and Mike McCarthy That is numbered 72 of 99 Nice rated rookie auto there congrats Mike Next up rated rookie auto for the Toronto Blue Jays Anthony K Blue Jays going to Richard Zimmerman 71 of 99 on that one And last up Red mojo rated rookie auto Kyle Lewis Oz on favorite for rookie of the year right now 33 of 99 Seattle Mariners Chris parent and Chris there's a little you can kind of see it right there a little bit of On the top edge Congrats Chris Kyle Lewis very nice Good a good rookie to get right now That was box one Some very nice stuff Still got four boxes to go everybody We'll do the same thing this time Bring the non-autos to the front try to save everything cool first up rated rookie Green-scale Jordan Yamamoto to 84 for the Miami Marlins and Kevin Schlafer Trey Mancini for the Baltimore Orioles and Richard Zimmerman number to 45 Yadier Molina red scale for the St. Louis Cardinals to 88 St. Louis Cardinals going to Joe Crowell Dylan Cease Chicago White Sox Red Scale rated rookie to 88 Chicago White Sox Mike McCarthy Kavin B. Gio Green-scale Toronto Blue Jays Richard Zimmerman. That's numbered to 84 66 of 84 Hollow Matt Carpenter for the St. Louis Cardinals Joe Crowell no numbering on that Rico Garcia San Francisco Giants rated rookie hollow No numbering very nice and Last up on the regular For the Cleveland Indians Jose Ramirez And that is numbered to 45 Cleveland Indians is going to Pedro ailment now our three autos first auto Niko Horner rated rookie auto the Chicago Cubs and Eric That's numbered 41 of 99 very nice good rookie auto there Another rated rookie auto Aaron Savale for the Cleveland Indians that's going to Pedro ailment 48 of 99 Congrats Pedro and Rated rookie auto Michael bias San Diego Padres 45 of 99 San Diego Padres is going to Corey Hartson box two now box number three guys I believe pick your teams to is in the store as well as potentially more, but I know pick your team to it Gave away one of the hollows already first up TJ Zook rated rookie To 45 Toronto Blue Jays Richard Zimmerman Bobby Bradley for the Cleveland Indians go on to Pedro ailment numbered to 45 Justin Verlander red scale for the Houston Astros numbered to 88 Houston Astros Joe Crowell Marcus Simeon Diamond Kings red scale To 88 Oakland A's is Joe Maderos Green scale for the New York Yankees Garrett Cole New York Yankees is going to Nancy Ripple That's 43 of 84 for you Nancy. This is the hollow I showed at the beginning Hollow JD Martinez for the Boston Red Sox and Jorge Mier No numbering on the hollow, but obviously very nice card and Once again, Ronald Acuna Jr. Diamond Kings hollow and Lana Braves Richard Uplis and last but not least Eloy Jimenez That's numbered to 45 Chicago White Sox Mike McCarthy. Congrats And now our autos Rated rookie auto for the Oakland A's AJ Puck That's something right there next to his head. I Would try to get it off, but I'm gonna leave that on there so you can do it on your own Joe Maderos You can see that little white Tried to like see if it would just come off with a little bit of pressure But it might need a little bit more. I don't want to do anything to mess it up for you But that's numbered 31 of 99 Like I said, that's going to Oakland A's and Joe Maderos Second up Another rated rookie auto going to Joe Maderos in the Oakland A's Jesus Lizardo No gunk on that one Now it's numbered 93 of 99 Congrats Joe and third auto Rated rookie auto for the Minnesota Twins Lewis Thorpe Minnesota Twins is Eric Ainge. That was box three guys a little bit over the halfway point 60% of the way there. We still got 40% to go if you haven't hit yet Good luck Hopefully I can pull you something in the last two boxes here something nice, too Good luck everyone box number four. It's not a bad thing. Good player. Tony Gonsolin rated rookie for the Los Angeles Dodgers green scale numbered 84 Nancy Ripple Los Angeles Dodgers Lucas Geolito Diamond Kings Number to 45 For the Chicago White Sox and Mike McCarthy Anthony Rizzo red scale for the Chicago Cubs Eric Ainge numbered to 88 on that one Shane Bieber for the Cleveland Indians red scale Number to 88 Cleveland Indians is Pedro Aylvan Buster Posey Diamond Kings red scale to 88 San Francisco Giants is Michael Armstrong our first hollow is Brian Reynolds for the Pittsburgh Pirates going to Michael Mary no numbering on that and Rated rookie hollow. Hey Susa Lizardo for the Oakland A's And Joe Medeiros Now we've got our three autos First up for the Seattle Mariners Donnie Walton rated rookie auto. Yeah, SKS. How you doing? That's numbered to 99 Seattle Mariners Chris parent next auto Rated rookie auto Michael King for the New York Yankees and Nancy Ripple Number to 99 That's Nancy and last up Joe Palumbo for the Texas Rangers And James Hopegate to 99 That's box number four Yeah, if all you people on the East Coast that are waking up want to start your day with a break We do have some breaks that are still close to falling filling and Fifth box guys. Good luck everyone last box last box mojo Let's get something crazy First up John means Red scale Auto or not auto 88 Baltimore Orioles that's going to Richard Zimmerman. We haven't seen this parallel yet. I Don't know what it's called, but I'm gonna call it the Wu Tang because you can see Kind of looks like a Wu Tang it might be the Eagle parallel that's Mike Soroka for Atlanta Braves Richard Opless, and that's a one-of-one So that is the Eagle parallel very nice There you go, Richard Should be the Wu Tang one next up Trey Mancini Red scale for the Baltimore Orioles going to Richard Zimmerman numbered to 88 Tony Edmund for the St. Louis Cardinals Going to Joe Crowell number to 84 rated rookie Brewstar Gradirall Red scale To 88 going to Los Angeles Dodgers and Nancy Ripple our first hollow rated rookie TJ zoo Toronto Blue Jays Richard Zimmerman Congrats and Max Scherzer hollow going to the Washington Nationals and Joe Crowell last spot mojo nice one-of-one And now the three autos first up Gavin Luxe very nice rated rookie Red mojo Auto for the Los Angeles Dodgers Nancy Ripple That's number to 99 Nancy you were already friends with me I think we're gonna stay friends Next up rated rookie auto Brian abray you for the Houston Astros That's going to Joe Crowell that's number to 99 and Last auto Randy Arreza rena rated rookie auto for the St. Louis Cardinals Joe Crowell Number to 99 very nice Guys, that's our break and everybody that was our first look at 2020 pinny Don Russ optic choice. That was a five box pick your team break number one Pick your team break number two isn't the store part of the same case Jasper's case breaks calm check it out. We can see you next time. Okay. Thanks


The southern shift affects the pronunciation of certain vowels within the southern states of the US. In most of these states, the triggering movement is a monotongueization of I with the result that words like hide or rise, some more like hard or rose. Furthermore, the onset of the mid-front vowel A is lowered and centralized to I so that slate sounds more like slide. Additionally, fronting as well as raising can be observed in other vowels. The southern shift may serve as a particular feature that helps to identify and differentiate the southern varieties of North American English from other varieties found in the northern and western United States.


Okay, so you should be streaming now and you are the host again. Awesome. So should that make it open up on the website? Yes, yeah. Does that take a couple of minutes or should I? About 30 seconds, but I'm going to log in and double check it here. Hey, David. Hi, Lars. We're trying to iron out some technical problems here. Okay. David, you joined via the zoom link I posted, right? Not via the website. Yeah, Jimmy, the website still isn't showing the feed. Yeah, I'm checking on it right now. I see the problem. Your sessions aren't supposed to start until. 1215. 1230. Well, right, which were well past and I had it at 1245 in the schedule. I thought that's the central time. I thought I saw that Iran had, sorry, maybe off then. I thought that it was 1145 central and that it was still 45 us. Am I, am I in fact have the wrong thing here? It's so yeah, you're about 40 minutes early. Okay. Well, that's fine then. But that's okay. All right. We can, we can trim this off. So this will be streaming, but as soon as the time rolls around, it will appear on the schedule. Okay. So we can just leave it, let it sit here and it's all set up at this point and just come back to it. Right. Yep. Correct. Okay. Well, thank you for that. And I apologize for screwing the time up there. No worries. Listen, if there's, if you have any problems, feel free to, to hit me up on, on email or, or speaker support. And we'll get you. All right. Thanks y'all. Thank you. All right. Well, Naved come back in 40 minutes. Yeah. That's what I just messaged on IRC. Sorry. I, where's, I, I even like, I was like, Aaron, helpfully converted this into Eastern standard time and it's all right there. And I think I must have misread it. That's fine. Yes. Because he included three time zones in his email.  I am going by the schedule on the website. We'd say 30 PM. Yeah, no, but Iran posted 1245. 1245 is not. He posted 1245 Eastern. In the email that he sent out to everybody. Perhaps Michael and Iran can then join our ESI forum because they're mistaken, right? Yeah. It's going to clash with something where it's not. So this is Wednesday, the 21st at 1145. Okay. So if you come down here, coral reef magic. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. I will let Michael and Iran know that his schedule was off and I wonder, I hope no one's missing it. I don't expect we're going to get a lot of people. Anyway, I'll see you in like 40 minutes. Cool. All right. Let's try this again. Yes. I see we have a visitor. Pierre. Hello. Get the ether pad open here in case we need it. Hello, man. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm fine. We have one non ESI person here, but he has been silent so far. Pierre, if you're there. Yes. Hello. There we go. Hello. I'll turn on the video. Yes. Hi. Sorry. I am also following a talk of mine, which is happening for 15 minutes. I'm just looking at any potential questions. Okay. I'll be multitasking here, but do, do get started. Well, so I will tell you right now you're the only person on this forum who is not one of the ESI developers. So if you have questions for us, this is the perfect time to ask them. If you don't, we're all just going to sit here and stare uncomfortably at the camera. Okay. Just a sec. No pressure. No pressure though. No one asking questions. Well, so if, if you don't know me, I'm Pierre Rito. I work for a stack HPC. I've been involved in the blaza project. Ever since it was revived. So it blaza originally was created. With the name climate back in 2013. And that was by a completely different. A set of people, including Sylvan Bosa, who is one of the core reviewers in Nova. And then it became inactive. And then we, we revived it. On my side, it was part of the, the chameleon cloud. And there were also people from entity in Japan. So obviously we, I looked a bit at ESI over the last few days when I saw it on the, on the schedule. I think what, what you've done looks, looks great. Obviously you have different requirements to, to what we're originally the blaza requirement. But it, it would be good to see where, where we can collaborate with some, we can share some ideas and things like that. I think having bare metal support directly in blaza, I think would be interesting for us. So if there's anything that's a, we can share between the two projects that, yeah, I think that would be variable. Min, I know you had looked at blazer more thoroughly than I think any of the rest of us, other than not having support for ironic at the time. Were there issues with the model that made it a poor match for what you're trying to do. I think the primary thing besides, well, the, the biggest thing was the lack of running support. Yeah. But that's something that I think that it could be added to blazer really easily now. It's a simple matter of just flipping, of just setting the, the less the ID on the, on the bare metal note now. And I assume that would be pretty easily done through blazer. The other thing I think was the owner less the model where it controls when their machine is, is actually available. Right. I, I, I could be wrong. So if you're please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think blazer quite supported that. If I remember correctly. Yeah, because it's, it's not being built. With those requirements in mind, I think technically you could do anything like that as a, as just a new plugin inside blazer. Because the, the plugins themselves, they can provide new API on endpoints and new manager code. So essentially you can reuse the, the kind of the shell provides all the, all the usual open stack things like database access and API shared code and things like that. And I'm just have your, your own custom behavior in there. So technically I think it would have been possible as, as a blazer plugin. I, I, I might take a large, if you think it's worth the time, I might actually take another look at the blazer code in the, today and tomorrow is almost down anyway. It should, it should be, it should be not down by the end of the day today. Yeah. So the power, the power outages that they've done their maintenance work, everything's coming back up. Pierre, have there been a lot of changes to the blazer code base in like the past year? Has it been under fairly active development? No, not very much. Unfortunately they, so there are still some people active mostly in Chameleon because they, they use blazer in production every, every day on the, have quite a large user community. The people from entity Japan are not as active as they used to be. So I'm also trying to recruit people. I'm encouraged them to, to contribute. Right. But you, I see that no, you've, you've quite, you've got quite a lot of code in ESI. You've built a whole new project. I was wondering, do you have plans of integrating into the OpenStack ecosystem? Or do you, do you think you're going to stay separate? Well, I mean, a large portion of the work is an upstream ironic. So it's already part of the OpenStack ecosystem. I don't feel that we've really thought about the long-term plans for the leasing service that we are working on. We have some immediate needs that we need to meet, that we want to actually get that code sitting in front of people and have people start interacting with it. And I think after we achieve that milestone, we'll have more time to spend thinking about like longer term aspects of the project. Right. But as, as kind of large kind of alluded to, like the, the ESI leasing service is pretty replaceable. Like we can replace it with a different leasing service and everything we've done in ironic would still apply. And like user, our users will still be able to interact with the bare metal machines in the same way. So we're pretty flexible on that front. Okay. Well, whenever I get some time, I'd like to look at what you've done for the leasing service and see if there are opportunities to, to get the two project closer. Because obviously it looks like a lot of the logic, you've actually merged into ironic. So this is something that we could, that could be reused by Blaser. Just like you need with the ESI lease. Yep. 100%. Like the, the integration between the, our leasing service, and ironic it just, it just sets a project ID in for a bare metal node in ironic. That's all it does. So blazer can do the same thing than, you know, blazer could also take advantage of our, of what we're doing in the multi-tenant ironic space. It's that simple. So it occurs to me, man, that would be something that would be an interesting project for someone would be to put together a, a portable ESI demo environment for people who want to like get their hands on it seeing it works. I see how it works.  So that for people who are coming to the project and like, what exactly does it do for me? That there'd be a quick way of getting that up and running so that people could play with it. Okay. Yeah. No, that, that makes sense. Like a death stack. That's something, ideally something even more opinionated the death stack. So that it's basically run a single command and you have a cluster of machines to work with. Yeah. Just to try to lower the bar as far as possible for people who just want to get their hands on and like see how it operates. And so one, one thing I'm curious about is that, so do you have actual end users of ESI at the moment already? No, we do not. That's why, that's why we're kind of really focused on that initial milestone. Cause once we get our goal is to get this in place at the mass open cloud to manage bare metal hardware there at that point, we will have actual consumers of the code and we'll be using it ourselves also to operate that environment. So that's, we're really hoping to get there soon. Yeah. I'm just asking because I remember seeing in your slides that they, you only have a CLI. I'm wondering how much that is a barrier for, for end users, but from my experience on, on chameleon people in majority use the, the horizon interface. Right. It's a fair point. So what we're aiming to replace at the MOC currently only has a CLI. We're trying to replace the existing system that only has a CLI. So for now, I think a CLI would be sufficient, but we definitely would be interested in like a GUI at some point. Yeah. But, and initially the primary consumer of the system will be operators at the mass open cloud as opposed to arbitrary end users who are looking for hardware. So that's kind of going to be a slightly more distant goal, I think. But yeah, I think we all recognize that we need a GUI at some point. Yeah. It's a big difference if the intended audience. Yeah. System administrators. Yeah.  It's still really just Pierre, who is the only person who's not involved in the project in some fashion. Hey guys. We're on. Hey, Ron. The opening for labs. When just went a little long. So just ended. So. That's right. Ron, we have Pierre here from the blazer project who has been talking to a little bit about that. Or on here is the. PI, the faculty at. Boston University, who's. Been behind a lot of the research that eventually turned into the CSI project. Yeah. Hello. Hey. So are you familiar actually with, I guess, chameleon is using blazer. Very heavily, right? Yeah. I used to work on the project. Closely with Kate. I think, you know. So, so yeah, I was the. The lead DevOps engineer from. I mean, it's inception to. Me. 2018. Great. Yeah. So we're meeting with Kate soon. Just being talking with her and trying to understand what they. What is it that in that environment it was prescriptive where. Sorry. Is it that chameleon interacted with ironic as a. As an administrative user essentially. Is that. Is that how things have worked till now without the multi-tenancy. So do you mean multi-tenancy. Of hardware providers. So the capabilities that, that, you know, these guys have actually implemented inside ironic now. That didn't exist till now so that you could come in. Lisa know to attend it with a particular. With their own credentials against the base environment. Like, so that seems to be like a fundamental requirement. But Camille clearly has worked without it. So how have they worked on that? Well, it. It kind of provides the same. The same end goal, but you don't get access to the ironic. API itself as a user. In Camille and you can, you can reserve nodes. Through blazor, but that gives you a reservation of an actual. One or many. Bermitt or hypervisals. And then you use know about to instantiate. Well, Bermitt or instances on them. And so it's still multi-tenant. But you, you don't get access to the ironic API. Like you can do in, in ESI as far as. If that model, your multi-tenancy is provided by Nova. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the main difference in design. Cool. That makes sense to me. So it does make sense that. I apologize. They had an urgent call. So it makes sense. The blazer could be layered on top of what we're doing in the long-term. I suppose so. Yes. Yeah. Cool. I just want to make sure that we weren't reproducing something like it, it always makes sense eventually to push these features into the base platform, which is the way that I think, you know, has been doing this is that, you know, so good. I wanted to make sure we weren't missing something because we, I sort of felt bad. I hadn't reached out to Kate. Well, I, I don't exactly what you talked about. But because I haven't been involving Camilla on for the last couple of years, although I've been following more or less what, what they've been doing. But yeah, I think there's some complimentary approaches that can be done. Excellent. Good. So I have questions then since. Go ahead. The real work. This is the place for it. So do we have. So basically, if I look at what I understand of the project is, is, um, We've provided the mechanism so now we can properly authenticate things so that only users that have rights to a machine can actually operate on that. You know, through these multi-tensity capabilities. Right. The, and now we're going to go and examine the performance, which I'm really excited to find out how, how much better or how much worse this does when the research book has we had before. Um, but the, um, in some sense it's a very, very rich API. Right. That you have, if you want to go, you know, you're talking to neutron with, um, for the networking side and, and to ironic for the provisioning side and, and, um, is that's part of the thing that worries me is that really rich API. Now it sounds like you guys have addressed that part of the pipeline layer. Um, do we think we need to address that the API layer as well, where there's a sort of limited API that things can programmatically interact with. It's not exposing all of open stack. I'm not sure because one of the motivations for trying to move these features into ironic is to be able to take advantage of this established ecosystem that already exists and there's tools that can work with it. And people who are familiar with it and there are libraries that support it. And if we replace the open stack reference API is with something special, we have, we've discarded most of that advantage. Um, and it helps us still because we can take advantage of those things in our code, but it makes it more difficult for people to integrate with ESI then because then they have to do special things other than just talking to open stack. And maybe, maybe we do some, maybe we make that an option. Maybe there is some kind of front end service that prevents that provides a minimal API for specific situations, but then you'd have to write tooling that talks to that. And it seems like it seems difficult to meet like both sets of requirements to be able to offer a standard suite of APIs that are well documented and people use and also offer the simplified one in a way that is useful. I don't know. I'm curious. I'm sorry. Do you have the same view? Um, I kind of, well, I, I kind of had a different understanding of a question, which was whether, whether it would be possible to push some of the logic in art in like the ESI CLI directly into ironic or neutron and then, you know, and have that logic that API layer instead of at the CLI layer. My, my impression, what, from what I've, my impression of the projects is they're not really that interested in converging to that extent to, and took, yeah, to converging to that extent. They kind of want to remain separate. So that's, that's why I think we took the approach we did. I think in Iran, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that Iran's concerns more around the security surface involved when you're exposing the entire open stack API to consumers versus if you can present a more limited API that just lets you do the particular things that, you know, we want people to do. Oh, I see. Yeah. I mean, I can see, I believe there are already tools out there that let you set up a proxy in front of an API with rules applied to specific routes and, you know, rate limiting and don't expose particular things without having to reimplement the back end service. So maybe that would be an option to look at some kind of front end rule engine that can restrict access to only specific API endpoints. So that rather than having to write a service, you are configuring an existing tool and you can provide it with some kind of, you know, input that says here are the things that should be allowed. Yeah. Yeah, so there's definitely the attack surface is one element that might partially address it. It's, but, you know, just even exposing a richer API than you need to is concerning to me. There's, in some sense, I guess the leasing stuff you've done that is, how's that connected now? Maybe I didn't quite understand is that that's itself as a separate service? Yeah, that's correct. It's a separate service. And how's that? So how does that turn into its own project? Or is it has that being integrated the opens with the broad open stack community there? Um, it's, I think that's, that's, uh, that's open to discussion. I think we're kind of waiting to see how well, how well it fits the needs of the MLC of the, of the help be my replacement first to kind of make to kind of make sure that the requirements and the maturity is where we want it to be. And then we would take a look after that. Okay. I think that, that maybe the next layer to think about that is, um, it's just right now we have one ESI instance, right? That we're, or we have multiple, but I mean, in, in, like, we were sort of thinking about how different consumers of one ESI instance. But as we go down this, there has to be something that arbitrates when you have multiple ESI instances. So Harvard has its pool of a thousand, 10,000 nodes that's putting in their ESI and BU has it. So we want the MLC to be able to, or the open cloud test, but the graduates from each of us and have networks that spend them, right? Um, and in that model, there's always going to have to be some intermediary, some intermediary that's trusted for each ESI that, um, for example, knows that it can plumb through this VLAN, right? So you have to know, you have to come to a prior agreement on which VLANs are owned by which ESI instance and then say, yes, I have, he's giving me blessing to use that VLAN on these machines in this cluster, right? And that's almost more of a neutron thing because neutron is the tool that's aware of things like VLANs and switches and topologies. Yes. So what I guess I'm saying is that, that there's a, you right now have this intermediary for the leasing, but in terms as we need an intermediary for networks. Um, and maybe that's what ESI is, is this intermediary that handles the bridging for multiple different things? Does that make sense? Sure. Because I don't think neutron would want to, in the same way you're saying that, you know, they don't want to necessarily integrate the leasing service into ironic and it's spanning multiple things. Maybe that's the same thing for networking. Maybe I can see, I mean, so for, for the stuff we're doing with ironic, I mean, ironic has a very kind of specific goal, which is being the thing that manages hardware and the stuff that we're doing with leasing and ownership and whatnot are kind of a separate thing. So it has to be a separate project, but with neutron, I can see outside of ESI, I can see people, why people would want to have site to site connections. Um, just for purposes of, um, integration or disaster recovery or, you know, distributed services, all of those things, similar requirements. I wouldn't be surprised to find if someone has already started trying to solve at least part of this problem. Um, how do you connect to open stack deployments in a useful fashion? Um, Yeah. So I don't know if that means, I don't know if we'll have to do the same kind of intermediary service that we've done with leasing and ironic, or if we'll be able to piggyback on top of something that already exists or that somebody is already working on. I think that's definitely an interesting area of research though. Figure out what's out there and how we can utilize it. Yeah, I think Christie looked at some of the projects there that were in that space of network Federation specifically. So he may have some visibility. There was a project at the time, like an upstream open stack project called a tricycle, but nothing came out of it eventually. Okay. I don't think it's still active. There were some ways to federate contrail networks. But I haven't investigated much into those because it was a pain to set up at the time. This was three years ago, I think. And, uh, one solution that we tried was just a stitching the open, which matches together, which works in the very small scale. But it's a mess when you go into a bigger scale. Well, I know this is the extent of that. They've replaced OVS by itself with OVN to try to solve some of the management issues with OVS. And I don't know if that would have implications for what you were just talking about either. But, you know, they've, they've been able to reduce the dependency unlike the Neutron L3 agents, which has performance benefits for the networking, for the operation of the networking and things like that. I see. Well, I haven't looked into this in the last two years. So things may be a lot different. And there's also projects like a, I think Calico, which just does away with L2 at all. And you only have to use IP addressing, which might also be something to look at into in this case. So I think that's all fine and dandy for stitching things at the high level. But this has a requirement essentially to look at it at the layer two level where we want to kind of create these overlay networks with VLANs. And we want to do it as rapidly as possible. We have the capability, for example, in our infrastructure to come to agreement about fully trumped network scoops. Speaking of which, I have to run to a Federation meeting. I'm sorry. All right. I have to run as well. That's totally fine. Thank you for, thank you for dropping by. We're still in Europe here. So it's the time for me. Have a good day. All right. You too, Pierre. Well, I think that's all the excitement. Yeah. I think that's all the excitement, but I'm just curious on the call is just basically. Yes. So how are you guys doing? Well, hey, we made it a half hour. Actually, that's not so bad. Honestly, that's better than I expected. Okay. I'm sorry that I joined later earlier one ran over.  How are you, man?  Well, I think we give this a couple more minutes just to see if any random people shows up and then we'll just close it at close it at two o'clock. Maybe maybe. Yeah, I have one thing to discuss maybe go ahead. Yeah, so I. So the thing I think we test this briefly in one of the previous meetings I joined was the security aspects of things right. Yeah, so like, like, is there a design document or a plan for that, and how are we going to go about it. We have a specific design document addressing security right now and that's largely because we're relying primarily on existing open stack projects to handle almost everything with the exception of the leasing component. Are there, what are what are the kind of the specific areas that you want to see addressed the secure boot component that's that's one of the critical things and station. And do we have design documents on the key lime stuff yet. I know that that's on the roadmap. So are you talking with Mike Peters there. I'm Mike Peters. Mike Peters is at red hat right. He's working with Luke Heinz on the key lime stuff. I know, I know Danny and Luke, sorry, and Leo, Danny and Leo have been talking, I've been talking to Luke. Have you talked to Mike Peters. And not yet. Okay. So yeah, we, we at IBM have been having like continuous meetings with both Luke and Danny, and also looking into also looking into the secure boot aspect so maybe we should we should start having combined meetings on that like, maybe what whatever you guys have been doing can be simply reused right. And try to integrate that directly to open stack setup that we are trying. Yep. So, um, Sorry, go ahead Danny. Anyway, go ahead. I was about to say like so, most of the work that Danny and Leo have been doing they've been working directly with ironic team so it's, if you want to integrate secure boot with, you know, into ironic that's probably the best place to start to be honest to talk with them on how they might approach it. Sorry, go ahead, man. No, I was about to say, but like, that's the stuff Leo and Danny are working on right now they've, they've come up with a spec that's with ironic team ironic team has looked at it they're iterating over it. So, we expect that you know we're going to this this entire integration process is going to take place in upstream ironic and we're just following the procedure there. One of our questions around that whole process is where it makes sense to perform attestation. Because if we roll that into ironic itself and it becomes part of ESI it doesn't solve the trust problem for someone consuming the hardware. Because if we run, if we run the attestation on the server side, then they're trusting us to do that. So we've we have often viewed the attestation is something that needs to happen. It needs to be controlled by the consumer of the hardware. Exactly, exactly. That that's the that that has been always the initiative like started like when we started designing ESI initially that was always in our mind and the key is that the that's why key line is the key component because it enables remote attestation and where that remote attestation aside it has to be completely tenant control. Yeah, and trusted, not just control but trusted as well. So if we integrate at the stations ironic then listen to just leave it up to the consumer when they want to run it how are they want to run it and yes I really doesn't need to have much say about that. Sure, but the provisioning service has to comply to whatever pros or protocol is required for secure boot right. Wherever like remote attestation can exist anywhere in the world, maybe maybe over a secure channel, even over the internet we don't know, but how that has to interact has to be like clearly defined in ironic. So sorry. So you said that ironic, like probably we should be having talking to ironic team about that. That's that's what are you saying like I didn't catch it. Yeah, we talked to ironic upstream and proposed spec on the security interface and key line interface in order to have a key line driver to do the attestation. Do you mean this thing. I see. So is that document publicly available. It's still on the review at review open stack, I think. But you can take a look at the, at the review, let me link it on the etherpad I guess. If you take a look on the etherpad line 17. That that's, can you, can you please share the link for etherpad I don't have it sorry. Oh, sorry. In the place. Oh, it's in this other chat. Okay. I think they didn't chat. So language. Okay review. I see. I see. So yeah, I definitely have a look at it. And yeah, thanks thanks for sharing this. Well, I'm going to declare this over unless we have anyone else who's got some questions going once. Going twice. All right. Well, thank you everyone for dropping by. Thank you guys for the great, great presentation. It was a good presentation men. Thank you. And thank you for leaving this forum Lars. It's been really hard work. All right. See you folks. All right.