Okay welcome everyone we're gonna get started so I'm gonna call the meeting to order. The first thing is to review and approve the agenda and I don't think that there are any changes relative to what is printed online so and you know what we have in paper here so are there any changes people would like to see to the agenda. Okay so without objection we'll consider the agenda approved so the next thing is general business and appearances this is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on a topic that is otherwise not on our agenda. If the item is on the agenda then if you would wait till that item comes up and then you can speak then and then if you have anything to say and this is true generally throughout the meeting if you would say your name and where you live and try to keep your comments to two minutes. My name is Seth Collins I live in Berlin Vermont and I would like to request a like to request Montpellier City Hall to set up a task force to create this neighbor or to start creating this neighborhood watch. I'll keep it short I have another meeting here but thanks thanks for letting me speak. Thank you. All right so moving on to the consent agenda is there a motion regarding the consent agenda? Move the consent agenda. For the discussion? All in favor please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay so and we have an above and beyond award. We do I was actually just looking I don't see the recipient here do we know if he's planning to attend? He could be. I'm gonna try and say this for the record I think that Dan... Introduce yourself. Oh I'm sorry this is Donna Barlow Casey Public Works director. Our staff needs to be in at 4 a.m. tomorrow he's the streets foreman I think he went home with the rest of our guys and that's where he is so he can do his job tomorrow. So for those that don't know once a month we give an above and beyond award to a city employee it's nominated by fellow city employees and then they're recognized internally and here at the council meeting so this year's this month's winner is named Dan Perry he's the newly promoted superintendent or supervisor of our streets division and he has particularly with this winter with staff shortages has really stepped up and filled in the role even before his form of promotion he's done a lot to reduce salt he's one of those folks that just comes out I noticed you just answered an email to someone just right before this meeting a citizen concerned about things and Joe he is his fellow some of his fellow employees recognize that and nominated him and our team that looks at these agreed so we just like to thank Dan Perry for his service we thought he was going to be here to be recognized but he's so dedicated the city that he's preparing for tomorrow at 4 a.m. thank you well and congratulations to Dan yes it's very exciting anything further on that okay all right so the next item is a climate emergency resolution and I know there are some folks here who would like to speak to that and there are a number of folks and so I would also just urge you to keep your comments to two minutes if you can that'd be great and then so we'll have public comment and then we'll have some discussion with the council so anyone who would like to make a comment about the climate resolution or sit hi I'm Kelly McCracken I live here in town I just one I helped work on this and I just want to say that the intent of this emergency declaration is twofold to both hold up the city as a model and to hold its feet to the fire we want to acknowledge the city's leadership on climate and support its ambitious efforts to achieve city-based net-zero emissions by 2030 and community-wide net-zero by 2050 the city has adopted these goals and now the plan and timeline to reach them must be created with both speed and thoughtfulness the whole city must mobilize to meet these goals residents and students at MS MS and MHS have worked together meeting with members of the council and me act to create this declaration and we ask for your support thank you hi Dan Jones I want to support the idea of declaring a climate emergency sadly feel that this particular declaration has caught in the weeds and doesn't actually address the crisis in any meaningful way and I'm saddened that this declaration walks back to 2014 commitment only now apply to city operations by 2030 it pushes off an actual commitment for city-wide changes until 2050 and only then frames actions in terms of greenhouse gas reductions that horse left the barn the recent IPCC report tells us all that we'd not massively if we don't massively shift our consumption of behavior by 2030 it's game over I respectfully propose that the council consider a real climate emergency declaration which would recognize that the climate crisis effects are here and now not often some preventable future we already find our water system is compromised by unexpected freeze-thaw cycles our roads and systems will get worse from here on in this year we've already had five January thaws in January we see increases in sewage overflows and in stormwater events yet somehow the city goes on as if the situation is normal and can be contained with traditional approaches of orderly infrastructure replacement an emergency situation requires preparation of and commitment to an emergency response a true emergency response will require public commitment to changing current land and water use and infrastructure plans such that we might prepare to actually survive a climate change future for instance are we going to continue to dedicate our downtown real estate parking lots assuming that we're always going to be a commuter hub for rural sprawl in a real emergency the city must be prepared to actively subsidize new transit as part of reorganizing our current transport and utility systems our city needs a process of real internal accounting of the true state of current expenditures for replaying climate damages like how many water main breaks does it take before we have to fix that problem responding to the growing real emergency will require concrete mechanisms to support sustainable investment that will provide future security and well-being for our citizens declaring a climate emergency without being prepared to create real adaptation has little value in defining what we need to demand of ourselves in this ever more challenging future thank you I have a question I'm a page garden I'm embarrassed to say haven't read the resolution is it possible to read it is it too long it's I don't think it's too long okay it's it's about a page and three quarters we could well I was to say the we could read the the be it further resolved oh you've gone okay is that sufficient page page that works for you okay further comments Diane Kagan I'm Pealier I I really would like to understand what this council understands the word emergency to mean I think that's been that was raised by Greta Thornberg at the World Economic Conference this past month and I think she posed it to all of us I don't know any high school kids here but they've really shown the way in demanding that the city and the state act in accordance with reality and not with our wishes I as a citizen of Montpelier who does not drive a car I'm gonna tell you this is a car town several people have been killed right here on Main Street and no one has been held responsible for it when I comb my hair in the morning after I've been walking about in the fresh air of Montpelier I can't even tell you what comes out of it and I'm not the only one the water situation here and the state of affairs with the river really needs to be addressed I walk I only live a few blocks from downtown but it's black ice and puddles the kids can't walk safely on Hubbard Street is a is traffic emergency so I really I really support the idea of climate emergency but I'd like to see us actually address things in a manner that you would deal with emergency like when your house is on fire do you wait till 2050 to put it out no you know I mean the wells to do in Montpelier are gonna do fine they've got their houses up and God knows where you know but the people on the streets of the city who actually have to walk and take public transportation are in our entire distress you know what I mean I'm I'm just speaking from the heart here because a lot of people in this town are tired of it and people gonna start leaving I mean I will not stay in this town if the situation continues this way not that my absence would be missed particularly but it's not it's not a livable situation unless you've got a lot of money and then you can go off and ignore it and put a lot of gas in your three SUV vehicles and drive your Jeep up in the hills and go skiing I don't know where so I think it's also a question of class that we have to consider and whether all the citizens are going to benefit from this from this activity and that's all I've got to say thank you I'm Lena Dinofrio I'm in seventh grade and I just like to say that I believe Montpelier should declare climate emergency because the communities most vulnerable to climate change are those with the fewest resources available and we are a community that has the means and resources to hold itself accountable for its emissions and yet the amount of carbon Vermont's been emitting has been consistently going up we must take steps to lower the negative impacts our city has on the environment and do the hard work necessary to get to net zero thank you thank you my name is Lynn Wilde and I live here in Montpelier on St. Paul Street five years ago we began planting trees on St. Paul Street it's called the St. Paul Street tree project that was a project of the Montpelier tree board the neighbors on Montpel on St. Paul Street and the church on the corner together we added 23 trees to that street to try to make up for the 10 large maple trees that had died over the past decade adding plants and trees to our yards and to improve the diversity of living species in our yards is a focus that we can all take whether we have a yard of our own or if we want to add them to other people's yards or join up in partnership with people who have really large properties and are willing to let us work with them the little trick to this is they need to be native plants and I just discovered this myself I've been really gung-ho about this whole thing more diversity more diversity more diversity but the caveat is that the insects that we need must be used to eating the plants that we plant and if we plant diverse species that are not native to our local region then we are not going to be able to feed them and that's really the bottom line here we've got to begin feeding the different insects that used to live here because those are the things that the birds feed on and those are the things that start creating the plant health in our environment and the soil health so not to lecture or anything but just saying it's complicated so I invite you and the tree board invites you to join us and to ask us to plant trees in your yard to join with the friends of the nwanuski to plant trees along the riverbanks to hold the soil in place to create the diversity on the riverbanks that then creates more insects that should live here that can fight the insects we don't want only 1% of the insects give us any problem there's a whole million of other insects that that we could be supporting if we choose the right native plants in the right places with the trees so Lin Wilde tree board join us friends of the wunuski river we're planning and plant for planting in May maitre city is coming let's do it let's let's get on this thank you my name is Darryl bloom I live in Montpelier on summer street I don't have prepared remarks but I did read the declaration presented to the council and I urge you to support it what could be more reasonable think of the number of times you've heard adults say to children come on now be reasonable what could be more reasonable than for us to be asked to make an actual plan to meet the goals that we all know are important we know those goals are important we know there may not really be enough but they'll get us going in the right direction Lin's talk is a perfect example of the resources that exist in the in the community and the plan encourages you to listen to all of the community and creating a plan to reach those goals so I urge you to support it thank you thank you all right so comments from council do you want to start one you don't have to and make I'll just say a few words and so just first of all really appreciate the students and parents and adults who did a lot of work putting this together looking at what you know a lot of communities all over the globe have declared climate emergencies already we wouldn't even be the first city in the state of Vermont Burlington beat us to the punch so this is something that's happening all over and I think a lot of the comments that have come out tonight of our houses on fire and we need to start acting like it are really resonate with me I do think we have set goals but without accountability and plans to get there and embedding this how we do our business into the city's operations then we're not going to make the kind of transformative change that I think we need so I do think this this emergency well we need to be doing more sooner faster on the climate emergency I think putting a plan in place to do that and being as bold and ambitious as we can in that I would encourage us to do and I would encourage everyone who's here tonight and the many other community members really passionate and really concerned about the climate crisis to hold the city accountable to developing a really good plan and then following through on actually implementing it so that whoever's here is being held accountable to doing the kind of work that needs to get done and that's both driving down our own pollution that we're contributing but also building and investing in a city that will be resilient over the long term from our infrastructure to our food systems and and everything in between so I encourage us to support this and look forward to the discussion. Dan and then Donna. Did I say one more. No, not right now so but perhaps later but I have council discussion. Yes, I just had a couple of questions. One of which maybe Lauren can answer this and comes from my being new on the council. But so what type of group came up with this as far as the planning and work that went into drafting this resolution. So there were just not purely our residents who were looking at what was happening and were concerned about the issue. And did so some of the folks who spoke tonight were the ones who drafted and wrote this and did a lot of research on what the city had done. They presented at the Montpelier Energy Action Committee and got some input from that group in terms of some of the substance that's in here that speaks directly to the city's goals and and operations. But that's my understanding of what went into it. And then who would I mean obviously it says that the city council would create and adopt the plan. But would we see a subcommittee then out of this or is this more of a yes we need to make a plan and let the details fall forward. So two things. One if you would play your mic a little closer. Two so the first part the 2030 goal for city operations. We that is embedded in the FY 21 budget currently. So that is underway which is great. And then we do not yet have plans to develop a 2050 plan. But that yeah. But I guess you know my question is to whom would the work fall. We're looking at creating a task force of this or is this an internal city process where a department would take care. We will eat on it. I mean this would be probably overseen mostly by me act. The money advisory committee with a consultant we would contract out the work to leave the research and that kind of thing and then present through me act. Obviously we'd have city staff involved probably our public works director and then report through me act and then to the council to adopt the plan. And then is the Envisionment. Sorry question as opposed to necessarily expressing opinion. But I want to make sure I fully understand and everyone understands as well. Then are we envisioning a plan that would then be binding upon the city that we would vote upon that would then control how we would make these plans such that you know future plans future councils future departments would be bound by this plan that we adopt. I would equate it to other plans the city has which are guiding documents. And because really we these plans that are talked about here are going to need to come up with like the nuts and bolts of OK. But how are you actually going to accomplish that. And that's where the creativity. I mean this is sort of like a it's almost like a blank slate. It's like it's not quite true. It's it's the framework like the foundation that we can build on for creating what will actually happen. But that as a plan it wouldn't be binding unless we made it binding. OK. Is that is that a fair statement. Yeah I was just going to follow into that. Normally these plans would come with a series of recommendation action recommendations and then obviously we would go through and choose the actions we were going to take and some of them could go into ordinance and you know it could always be undone by future councils that any of any of our regulations can be sure we're strengthened. And say it may be worth noting that the city is currently working on its city plan which has an energy chapter which does get to some of these strategies. Well that that actually anticipated I just wondered how that would then meld with our city plan which would as you say can include an energy chapter and I would see it focused on that and how this would be different than that that section. I think I see it as being more robust. I mean they would just have more detail and like thinking we can and to the extent that it either differed or expanded upon the city plan we could amend the plan you know that chapter to to address those you know more detailed responses and I'll end so the others have a chance to talk. But you know my concern obviously is we want to make sure that if we do create a document like this that it is consistent and supported by other planning documents that it doesn't sit at odds with those and it's we're not setting some goals and in one document and other goals and another as well as you know and I could see a document like this being more robust and more looking at a bigger slice of of the pie yet you know in some ways the city plan is intended to be that way so I could see this working hand and glove and maybe we're looking beyond and obviously by these these dates we're looking beyond the five-year sort of city plan that we we would normally have so I appreciate the answers and the time for the questions. I definitely can support making a motion to make a plan I have some questions about the date and need to talk to Bill and some of the answers to Dan is about staffing how much of our staff because we do have new directors new city office staff so that concerns me as far as 2020 and I think an FY year so I think of FY 21 because budget and staff planning goes with that way so I feel comfortable more comfortable with saying it would be completed by the end of FY 21 as a motion but within the resolution I have five different groupings of questions and I did send them to you Lauren ahead of time and some of them are real basic I don't know you need such a detailed resolution and but some of the wording bothers me such as in the very beginning says to mitigate damage to do to climate change and to restore a safe climate I don't know what a safe climate is three fifty parts per million what three fifty parts per million of CO2 I think would be a fair is that okay then I guess I need something like I just okay we can do it would be so we could it could be more specific like that to help to find if it yeah I mean I guess that's that's the gold here to me that kind of specific gold really needs to go in the plan and this is just a statement saying we have these issues and we may resolve that we want to do a plan to resolve them versus trying to list each and every one within the resolution I find a little clumsy sorry I'm not even finding that language maybe I'm just in the very first pair very first sentence the heading okay so that was my initial question and then when you go on and it says whereas Vermont has already experienced I'm still thinking local Vermont Montpelier and I felt that like some of the statements that we have a lot of damage already with streets so that we have real problems of cost to our infrastructure and to staff time when we have a utility line go because of all these extreme ranges of temperatures so I feel that in that one to third whereas that that could be very much more specific if you're going to mention Montpelier we have these problems right now that are costing us money for infrastructure and staff time and then on the second well mine's a second page it's near like the fifth paragraph from the bottom and I do think Montpelier can be a leader and an example for others but I'm less comfortable with some of this commitment to global you know to reverse global warning I mean just it just jumps out out there is like whoa so maybe I'm thinking more directly that we do our little pond and we try to do it well and that will lead others to follow us but so that was my issue and then the fourth one is the first be it further resolved that's the timing issue I feel more comfortable with FY 21 and then the very last one it gets into so much language I have no idea what it means I'm uncomfortable with them which which sorry the last the very last one that will investigate radical gas greenhouse gases transportation heater sector gas we draw opportunities soil carbon goes on and on and on I said is that like they're less deep everything I just like why list anything instead of more of a broader heading I just some cases scientifically I guess it gets too specific for me and other cases it gets too global I'm sorry to be fuzzy but do you have any language change the suggestions you want to offer I don't I don't know enough about the scientific topic okay that's why I said it ahead hoping that maybe there would be some heads some experts that could add to this I just would like us to have more time and not feel like we have to do it tonight that we can take in some of the comments and and try to help trim it down to be more specific Montpelier but not so intensely specific with all the things that are going wrong so that makes sense at all yeah okay I'm gonna flag that all of all of those thoughts I mean let's come back to it that's okay other council comments Glenn and then Connor again thanks for everyone coming out and doing the work on this I think I I hear the concerns about the language I think I'm I'm perfectly willing to see some of those changes and I support it as written really it reads broad enough and specific enough for me and as far as I can tell it does commit us only to doing what we have already said we are going to do and what we will need to do plans for 2030 and 2050 as far as the timing goes end of FY 21 versus end of this year 2020 I guess to me it feels urgent enough to have a plan to get 2030 that we should just do it now by the end of 2020 feels adequate to me especially because we have already been planning for it to some extent I share some of the commenters fears that even if we do manage to meet these goals that we've set for ourselves it may still be inadequate but I think that as written for now this is certainly something that I can support yeah I agree with some of the concerns I think you can look at some of this language and say you know maybe it's a bit duplicative of other other policies we have I think you could also make the criticism that doesn't go far enough Ben Jones a lot of his points hit pretty hard there and what I like about sustainable Montpelier is they actually have tangible ideas and had to get us on track here so I think we would benefit from bringing them in more and hearing more about those ideas microtransit being an example that's actually going to come to fruition hopefully but I think that it comes down to it for me any resolution is a bit hollow unless you do the work and follow up and I can't tell you how much I admire just the students in this community who camped out on the state house lawn in the cold will go in the streets put themselves on the line and what I see this as I see this as an evolution and sort of the movement that they've created for their own future it's not about just going to the streets and taking action it's about putting some ideas on the table working with elected officials lobbying them I got a ton of emails over the course of the week very very well-ridden very passionate about this and I think what I would what I would ask the students back is this is not the end of the conversation if we pass this this in itself is not a remedy you need to hold us accountable and continue coming to the council meetings continue hammering some of these issues but again the passion I see the work they've done I would have a lot of trouble voting against this resolution I think this is a really good step for them to take there so thanks very much Jack do you have anything you want to add very little I'm very happy to vote in favor of this resolution just as it's written if if there are enough people who think that we should spend some time more time working on it before we adopted I have no problem with giving members the time to to do that and be totally comfortable with it and take it up again next time sorry so you should you're suggesting that maybe we send it back to the community members who are working on this for some language edits potentially and come back for next week or next meeting yeah yeah I'm ready to vote yes tonight but I also like the idea of having everybody be on board yeah I actually I'd like to just ask Kelly McCracken to come back up here if you wouldn't mind as someone who is was instrumental in putting this together my question is is really how how do you feel about doing that based on some of the the comments or clarifications that you've heard or I feel fine about that okay you know I agree that my personal declaration would ask for a lot more yeah and I feel really good about just pushing the council to do what you already I know what you already want to do so I don't think I took issue I don't I don't know I'd have to look at it but no that's okay yeah yeah yeah okay I also just want to say that the a lot of the language comes that's not specific to us comes from other climate mobilization the whole climate mobilization movement and we really tried to edit it to make it as specific as possible but yeah yeah perhaps we're not not yeah yeah we can add some uphealer specific things and maybe clarify some of the points Lauren the only I think that sounds great and if you're willing thank you for for you and that all the team who I don't I was happy with this so yeah yeah I have to understand who what I'm doing sure but I would do it if I understood what I was doing yeah I think some of it just seemed like either let's keep it all my appeal your specific with the examples at the beginning which seems fine and maybe define safe climate put a different phrase in that makes more sense to you I mean I didn't bother me but I that that seems like totally solvable like you raised the issue of national advocacy like I I mean I know that I think we do some national advocacy on climate we're part of national networks I would not want to take that out I think if there's opportunities for not failure to be part of a bigger city movement on climate that we should absolutely do that so I would push back on that one and say I think you know I think that's limited we're not we don't do a lot of that most of this is all about what our city is doing but I wouldn't want to take out the you know that that's something we would possibly look for opportunities and I know the city already has before so that one I would just put that out there and finally the I for the most substantive seems like the date of the plan I mean I I think it seems kind of ironic to say it's a climate emergency let's take a year and a half to make a plan like I think 2020 as a calendar year seems given the work that's underway like if if there were you know not going to be funding it you know like if we like physically couldn't make it work but it seems like we can do our best to try to get one done in the 2020 calendar year I just I just saw a half-hearted maybe not so I'll take that as a let's do it we will strive to do what you ask us to do the funding that we approved in the budget you know starts July 1 now we could probably you know speed that up by having us ready to go for July 1 and obviously any I'm actually more concerned about the subsequent year because we haven't considered funding for a fiscal year that begins July 1 2021 into 2022 so we're making a promise and we presumably the first plan is going to drive what the second plan is but you know again you're the council you're going to decide what we budget so if you're making that commitment then we'll do it it would for us it would just make more sense to have them line up with the fiscal year but you know we'll do our best and you will do our best to have it come out when you want but you know well I mean if we don't fund the second part that would be the classic unfunded mandate which has never occurred before in the history of government but you know I think this first plan is important enough that if what I'm hearing from you is that having it go to the deadline of fiscal year 2021 I mean you know the basically June 30th of next year you know I'd rather have that plan done right because it would be the first step than to rush it to meet some goal that we set here on paper because it sounds good on paper you know the and sorry I'll let you answer you know to me the the issues with the language in especially the whereas causes I mean whereas clauses are just whereas clauses they're not binding no one takes them well well because they do they sort of set the background in the general tone and so I'm not so I and I'll just say that's my own personal take is that I I'm not as bothered by that and I think it's a good idea if we're you know if we've made this commitment to this plan and if we all recognize this is a climate emergency to start taking action and so to me the real nut of this is to take action in a way that's going to go beyond the page and is going to result in policy and plans that we can follow that will be consistent with other plans that we're making so that we do start to bend the use of you know our both carbon and our infrastructure to support these issues and we do it right as opposed to doing it either rushed or you know doing it as a series of ongoing resolutions so we push more paper and we feel good about ourselves I mean I'd really like to see this as the first step and then see a plan jack and then I have a comment as this discussion's been going on about the the completion date of this plan it occurs to me that if we want to be in a position to to be considering whatever we put in the plan as we build the fiscal year 2022 budget probably we should have it done by December of this year so then that can be an input for the next fiscal year's budget so to address some of your comments done I have some suggestions and so rather than perhaps sending it back to the folks who helped write it maybe there's some easy language changes that we could make right now if if they're amenable to to you in the group and if they also satisfy you Donna so I can make the motion now to do the plan I have no issue about the plan you know if we're gonna do it let's do it right that's good okay so about the about the first part restoring a safe climate because that was vague and my interpretation of that is that that is the first part is damaged due to climate change and then to restore a safe climate really means reducing greenhouse gases so I would suggest that we strike restore a safe climate and put in reduce greenhouse gas emissions because that's what I think that's trying to accomplish under the third whereas where you have Vermont has already experienced long-term warming extreme weather events and serious flooding and I would suggest adding after that Montpelier has experienced multiple water main breaks in part due to extreme freeze-thaw cycles and more frequent major storm and snow events so there's a couple examples of Montpelier specific impacts and then the next part you had some questions about the I didn't realize we did global lobbying I I know that we are advocating as a city when we meet with other cities but I really didn't know we did global what's lobbying I thought lobbying is a very distinct I'll speak for myself and say that I have done that been to some national conferences talking about our efforts which is great yeah that yeah I think okay that that's sharing and being a mentor that's fine okay great you do that now we'll just check it off okay that paragraph alone um as for the dates I'm hearing some disagreement about whether to change it to FY 21 or FY 20 so maybe Jack made a good point there yes I agree so if they give if it's if it's pushing us to go a little faster that's maybe that's okay unless it's going to take away from the authenticity of it but we can we can have more conversation about that and then you had some concerns about what is involved in that last paragraph I am happy to talk about any of those things within like a 20 second explanation on any of those you feel comfortable with them I'll sign off and okay it's on your head um well if you have that question if just because I'm a teacher maybe I'll just do it anyway just take take 20 seconds it's an opportunity right to talk about what's that yeah yeah right exactly I need the whiteboard we're going to draw some equations no um so uh I think people understand tree planting yep um soil cars uh soil carbon sequestration so uh a lot of carbon stored in soil particularly in roots and mycelium and just other organisms that live there's a whole ecosystem underground helps store carbon and some of that is even you know old plant matter that's just under under you know layers right if it's long enough it becomes yep cold and so there are things we can do to uh increase carbon sequestration planting trees is one of them but there are other things you can do to increase sequestration one of those things actually is pyrolysis which is a process by which you heat up material to very high temperatures under pressure and it's organic material will sort of turn into charcoal some of it vaporizes and you can burn it and that you are still burning some of that carbon then but uh but some of it um becomes in uh basically a locked state so it's out of the uh out of the sort of decomposition cycle for carbon it sort of takes it out of the the carbon cycle if that makes any sense so so that's that has some potential um reduction of food waste we know a lot of that food waste right now uh in in July theoretically we we will not be throwing trash food waste into the trash but um that is an opportunity for us to explore uh potentially some more robust composting opportunities particularly with the city so we're gonna actually donna and anyway there's a group that's working on that uh and then climate adaptive land use planning we know that climate um solutions really are also about land use planning which i think we we know does that well and it mentions transportation and heating sectors those transportation is the highest sector of greenhouse gas emissions in the state uh followed by the heating sector is that satisfactory okay thank you for sorry that was probably five minutes sorry that was to yeah it doesn't include everything that dan would like to see in it oh for sure and and i would say this is not an exact this shouldn't be an exhaustive list and there's some of these avenues may not prove fruitful that's okay um so any so but that's satisfactory to you yes yes and the and i really got the point that jack made about the date particularly because i didn't know before that we have the money in our montpellier energy group for a consultant you said there was we have the money to be clear the starts till i won the money does start right but we can we can start working we can strive to have it done by the end of 2020 and that's great i'm not trying to be instructive i just don't know how long the planning process is going to take we haven't hired a consultant we don't know what their plan is we don't know what work they're going to do so i that's you know that's my concern but i think to set that as a you know i guess the concern is we say this and then on the first meeting in january we've got a room full of people saying you know you didn't do what you said you were going to do so i and i mean that facetiously not really but you know we i take if we pass this the commitment would be that we would start probably as soon as the budget passed if it passes in march and then you know start prepping and doing the rfps and also so we're ready to roll instead of starting that whole process in july and that you know they'll tell us how long you know i i don't have any idea what's involved in doing one of these things if they find out a different date then they come back to us and we amend we can let us or we were consciously doing okay that's the planning actually this other lady wanted to say something before if you would like to make another comment just like to make a methodological question i raised a methodological question because i i mean i've been i've been studying this since 1971 when we cleaned up oil spills in california and i've i spent a lot of time in the last few weeks watching the west world economic forum sessions on the climate emergency so one the the whole world right now is reeling over the latest scientific revelations which indicate that things are moving much faster than anybody thought one of the reasons that happened and i read a very interesting scientific paper on this is that the scientists themselves are reluctant to come to the conclusion about what was actually happening until they had consensus if you wouldn't mind speaking into the microphone so that people at home can hear you also oh i'm sorry i thought i'm i'm used to being on the stage anyway so the scientists themselves the the key planetary scientists themselves have you know revealed that they were slow to come to the conclusion about what was happening and one of the reasons for this had to do with the necessity for consensus consensus among scientists themselves before they told the rest of the plan of what was going on so i'm just secondly i think that you know i'm all for a plan the plan needs to be in concert because we're a town that's trying to deal with town what the town is about but we're also part of planet and to my knowledge very little weather comes out of vermont to anywhere else we get weather from everywhere that that delivers you know it's like you're here and like what chicago's coming today main's coming tomorrow a laska's coming the next day we're getting it i'm going to interrupt you because we're at about and i'm going to stop now okay i hear what i'm what i'm right i'm i'm willing to work on this okay because i i want to i'm willing to work on this i'm going to live here i'm willing to do to help help and vision a consultative process so that the experts that you get on your on the advisory committee are dealing with what they need to deal with thank you and i'm hats off to um so there was a mention earlier that somehow this uh whatever is done is in the bailiwick of meaq the energy committee um i was informed at the last meaq meeting when i tried to bring up the issue of resilience that really and the energy committee only deals with energy i think we're facing something that actually has to do with the whole systems problem in the city which includes infrastructure includes systems includes land planning etc that we are uh missing it by putting things on the energy like i said that horse is out of the barn as she just said what we're going to be experiencing is the effect of the carbon pollution put in in california india china etc what we do here is going to be minimal what we are going to have to respond to is going to be huge and so i would like to propose that the city consider a resilience committee for lack of a better word that would look at some of the issues of both land use infrastructure transportation and uh energy as a total picture as a way of addressing this because i think the energy committee has already said this is not their bailiwick thank you thank you is there any further comments on the resolution or is there a motion i'll make a motion to adopt the resolution endorsing the declaration of climate emergency and emergency mobilization effort to mitigate damage due to climate change and reduce greenhouse gas emissions as presented and as modified by the mayor's suggestions in the third whereas clause and i'll keep it as a plan for the end of 2020 motion a second um i just want to look back there does that sound okay okay um further comments okay all in favor please say aye aye opposed okay thank you all and thank you so much for your good work on this and um i look forward to filling out some of the steps as to how we're gonna move towards energy independence reducing our fossil fuel use deeply important okay yep okay so we are up to some appointments so the first is to the molecular transportation infrastructure committee seems apropos actually right after the climate resolution so for that we had one vacant seat and one applicant from peter lux who i do not see here unless i'm missing peter don't see peter but he also comes to the energy committee jack i move that we appoint peter lux to the mtic second for the discussion i'll in favor please say aye opposed great thank you peter all right and we have an appointment to the americans with disabilities commission group that oh i'm skipping stuff it's not good okay this page is not loading for me right now so how many seats do we have there's one um vacant seat which is pages and she's she's in two alternates and three people have applied okay that i'm not really so i think the two vacant seats are alternates is that right um so i'd actually like to pause on this and actually do the ada appointment first because there's it's a little simpler because i think there's multiple people for this and we actually have to make some decisions oh okay um about that because of the do we put someone in an alternate seat or you know the regular appointment so um so going to the ada committee um there was uh one vacancy and there was one applicant priscilla fox is priscilla here hello if you wouldn't mind coming up and introducing yourself and telling us about your interest in the ada committee thank you i'm priscilla fox i live in montpellier and i would like to volunteer for the city in some capacity and i think this is the best fit for me i am a lawyer i've had some experience with the ada in my previous work great so that's basically my my reason any questions for priscilla no i'll just note uh it says that you actually lectured on a unit of the rehabilitation act the predecessor to the ada as well so i understand you're intimately familiar with both the ada and it's it's origin i don't know if i would say intimately familiar anymore but i did um yes i taught that vermont law school many years ago okay it is oh yes good yeah just one question i'm on the ada committee and uh i should just mention that uh this is a committee that typically meets uh during the business day so if that's not a problem no that's not a problem okay great okay great um i'll make a motion that we appoint priscilla fox to the ada committee i'll second a further discussion all in favor please say aye thank you so much thank you thank you okay uh so jumping back to the conservation commission so i think there were actually four um vacancies and uh because roy shiff was not uh renewing um and then there are already two alternate vacant seats uh and then pages sorry well that's that's interesting because his appointment isn't expired yet but if he's not coming to the meetings okay yeah well let's follow up about that yeah we should get an official communication from the yeah commission to us about that so we take an action yeah okay well let's well we'll circle back to that one but thank you um okay so um there were four seats and uh three folks to appoint page you want to come introduce yourself and i'm page curtain and i would like to ask that you reappoint me to the conservation commission and i just found out today that we received the second grant that we applied for to do a walking tour of Vermont green infrastructure and finish the credit union sign so i could be around to finish that up yeah great thanks super so you don't quit when it's done any questions for page okay great uh and then uh joseph wheeling wheeling if you wouldn't mind coming up introducing yourself and tell us about your interest in the conservation commission i thought i would do my part for the city of montaner by trying to help us keep this place green i've got some background in environmental subjects i have a degree from linden state natural sciences i think i should be able to recognize a few plants and insects and trees around town and help to preserve them i did serve on the uh city council or a commission some years ago in recreation and i found it a pretty fulfilling experience and i hope that this will be as fulfilling uh jack um i it might not have been clear that uh some of the that there was a multiple full uh membership slots on the commission when you applied so are you willing to be either an alternate or a full member yeah i think i'd prefer starting is it alternate okay thanks sure okay thank you any other questions okay great was also active on the group that attempted to keep recreation of the berlin pond girl who was very active all right and stephanie hunt stephanie here okay um so this is one we probably should go into executive session on yeah i move that we enter into executive session to discuss the appointment of a public officer or employee pursuant to one vsa section three thirteen a three second for the discussion i'll if you please say hi hi hi oppose okay we will be okay all right is there a motion to come out of executive session so moved second for the discussion all in favor please say i i oppose okay i move that we appoint page gerton and stephanie hunt to permanent positions on the conservation commission and uh joseph wailin to position as alternate second and just to clarify by permanent position you mean the three-year term yes right you don't get to design but not the alternate commission yes okay some of us have been on those commissions that seem to be in perpetuity okay okay um further discussion all in favor please say i i oppose great thank you page and joseph and stephanie for your commitment your service okay and so we have one appointment to make to the development review board and there's it says there's one vacancy but it looks like there might be more regardless we have one applicant i don't know if roger crantz is here okay all right um is there any um i'll move to appoint roger crantz to the development review board for the uh open three-year term second i'm sorry i jumped the gun apologize so you're second okay okay just just right for the discussion uh all in favor please say hi hi opposed okay great thank you and thanks roger okay so i think we are up to uh the presentation of the downtown master plan so there's some folks here a presentation for us and just to clarify we're not voting on anything about tonight this is just no and i'm i think might continue this up as well as i can but yes that is correct this is a an introduction of where kind of a status update they'll be back in march with an actual rec plan recommendation but do we need the lights off yes um actually shows up pretty good in one tweet does it do you want a minute to set things up or do you need a minute what time is it it's only seven thirty oh my goodness well i'm gonna let's just keep rolling it's only been an hour or so i know so i'm mic millard planning director and so i just wanted to go in i'm quickly just gonna tee this up for um for these folks for um like he knows what he's doing uh so as everyone's aware we've been working on the downtown uh streetscape plan for a number of months now and uh se group has been doing a great job at putting these ideas together and um doing a lot of public input and they've got a quick presentation that there's no decision to be made tonight this is really uh taking everything that was learned and compiling a recommendation for you to start to think about and consider and then kind of hear from you what path you want to take we understand with you know an election coming up in a couple of weeks we're going to have a maybe some new faces on the council so we didn't want to try to rush in and get a decision before then but we wanted to get you guys the opportunity for you to comment for anyone who's not going to be here next month uh you'll have an opportunity to give us your thoughts of what you see and um for anyone who's new coming on they'll have the same opportunity so we'll give them a couple minutes here maybe 15 minutes to go through an explanation of what they've come up with and we'll just take some comments and any public input as well so by way of introduction i'm mark kane director of community planning and design for se group and i'm joined today by patrick olstead our project manager and senior linsky architect the presentation today is going to kind of cover some of the high points of the draft master plan document that i believe this council has received and i'll start off by talking about the fact that this downtown master plan is actually a core master plan the study area that's depicted in that sort of light tan color is a subset of the actual urban fabric of mom piliar and that's an important consideration as we get into some of the recommendations because as you will see um there are recommendations in this plan related to land use and stormwater and some other things and they are constrained by the study area but we recognize the city's pursuing broader strategies elsewhere um so the study air compasses uh the the main streets the study area compasses are state street main street very street and uh langen street with a with a touch of elm on court street on the sides um patrick why don't you walk them through the uh the sort of the structure of the plan in terms of the streets we looked at yeah well i think the first thing i want to do is kind of um talk about sort of the high level stuff that we looked at we looked at the whole downtown course pretty high level in terms of opportunities so you just now we can go back to that um go actually go advanced to so in terms of our analysis looking at the opportunities uh in the downtown core um you know one of the key things that was important was looking at the kind of bike pad conductivity and opportunities so we are really um kind of building off some of the previous studies as a starting point for our work and then looking at other opportunities to to kind of improve the connectivity um you know take advantage of the uh the amazing bike path that's in there now and really try to make it easier for folks to get there from a number number of different locations whether on bike or or walking so this is this is one plan that we did that kind of just kind of summarize that high level looking at you know potentially closing some alleys making things a little more pedestrian friendly safer for people on bikes also investing in more infrastructure to kind of intercept people who are coming into the downtown of their bikes so they can park and then walk because it's an incredibly walkable downtown and just wanted to make sure that that was shown in those key locations um the next plan we also looked at infill opportunities we also looked at open space opportunities in some cases we looked at some of the parcels where we might suggest that could be one or the other you know one of the one of the issues that we've heard is that there's a need for housing downtown there's also the parking issue clearly so we looked at you know some of those opportunities whether it be kind of an underutilized lot or maybe a parking lot that you know could have a higher and better use at some point you know really there's pretty limited real estate but we wanted to just kind of see what could be what could be done in the downtown core to address some of these infill opportunities let's see and I should point out that this all these studies do kind of make the assumption that the proposed parking garage hotel development is going to happen and that's just kind of reflected in our plans a sort of a basis for our planning so this looks at open space I think this ties into some of the discussion we heard earlier tonight trying to restore riparian buffer for the river you know Montpelier is similar to many other urban downtown environments that where you know development goes right up to the river's edge ideally you'd have a little bit more of a natural kind of edge there that would provide you know habitat it's going to provide more stomp stormwater kind of treatment opportunities and also provides a open space recreational environment for people yeah thank you microphone one thing that I think is really important to recognize in the in the community engagement was that in the core we're dealing with here there actually is a lack of civic open space you obviously have the little plaza here in front of city hall but there's really not a lot so one of the opportunities that exists is to take advantage of maybe some of this riparian restoration and some of those in those underdeveloped properties and actually expand open space with a civic mindedness to it and we think that might be a very interesting our opportunity to explore yeah thanks Mark I think that's one of the things where if you can find that alignment of achieving multiple goals where it would be improved stormwater quality or water quality civic open space and you know habitat and things like that that's that's really those opportunities where we wanted to look at so really it's that the stormwater so this shows again that riparian corridor we also looked at you know this is again we should tee up we had our team watershed consulting who really specializes in stormwater management and they looked at the stormwater improved water quality opportunities through a number of different recommendations and so this kind of tries to capture some of those possibilities kind of a high level way but I think one of the key things understand in Montpelier is that infiltration is is kind of limited in terms of an opportunity due to the soils you have heavier soils here that don't drain as quickly as maybe you would like to make infiltration a major practice for stormwater so we would be looking at some opportunities for that but a lot of it would be looking at capturing water getting into subsurface detention and then filtration so in some of these practices could be very much integrated into the streetscape recommendations we're making in terms of tree plantings where you could have those planter service filtration to remove phosphorus and just another point on that that I think is really important is the fact that again that's this strategies are we're talking about are related to this study area in the core obviously there are other strategies that would be applicable elsewhere in the city and obviously what the hope is is that the recommendations from the plan and the the modeling that was actually done associated with this plan would be informative to the city as it looks at its stormwater management treatment more broadly so this is where we get into more specifics on the streetscape itself and what we did was we you know we went through this public process we went to you know had a couple farmers market events we had an online survey we wanted to try to get a sense of what people's priorities are for the streetscape because you only have so much area to deal with is it going to go to cars is going to go to parking is it going to be for green infrastructure and trees is it pedestrian space are there you know kind of opportunities for outdoor dining and seating and so there's all these kind of compete competing interests and we wanted to see how we could bring those together and find kind of the ideal balance and the way we explored this was through two you know kind of distinct concepts concept a and concept b I think let me just first say that both of them are trying to find you know make improvements to the pedestrian kind of environment in the downtown improve the bike ability to the downtown get more trees in the downtown environment so I think as a baseline we wanted to do all of that and then we just kind of shifted the priority a little bit to one or more of these focuses on each of the concepts so with concept a I'd say this one that the kind of biggest focus for this is on placemaking I'm really trying to maybe go a little bit beyond the kind of typical business as usual creating some really special places through enhancing the streetscape and in some cases kind of blurring the line between the street and the sidewalk maybe you know looking at options of kind of having a flush condition where you you bring that kind of enhanced pavement across the sidewalk into the road this is in front of city hall here where we're looking at kind of maybe an enhanced plaza space that could be opened up a little bit become a more important and kind of functional civic space and then that could then kind of carry through through the street to really give that that building the importance of what happens that building sort of a grander sort of feel in front of it and then as a general sort of concept in the streetscape we really want to emphasize creating an environment that would be good for growing really large healthy trees and having those trees have enough space to grow with bigger planters and and having them a little further from the street let's see go to the next one you can see how this played out in state street again the idea of kind of creating this enhanced pavement that could carry across the street at the Rialto bridge and that's you know up for reconstruction as you know so that's an exciting opportunity to do something kind of special there you know and and this is looking at the idea like maybe you could do some kind of shade structure get more seating out there and really draw attention to that kind of important interface between the streetscape and the river that's right there and you can see one of those larger tree beds in the foreground of that perspective sketch and that gives you an opportunity to do some understory kind of colorful plantings to kind of bring more vibrancy to the street laying in street for option a we explored some again kind of interesting ideas of blurring the line between the street and the sidewalk looked at here at flush curb throughout the whole street it has you know it's a I think a distinct kind of character as it is laying in street compared to the rest of the downtown based on the kind of the scale and kind of width of the street so we were kind of proposing here the idea of some kind of special pavement surfacing that could span across the entire corridor maybe some let's see eliminating one row of parking on the north side of the street to free up more sidewalk space because it's pretty tight through there and then the idea here is that you could close the street and use it for festivals and special events and you could just have its own kind of special character and we didn't you know to carry that level of detail through every every foot of the downtown core but wanted to kind of capture the overall concept and what it would mean in terms of parking or parking loss so this is kind of a diagram that captures all of that in terms of what the street tree kind of strategy is and what the parking strategy would be so you see some areas where we are indicating a loss of parking some areas where we remain to be parallel parking and then some cases where you might be able to add some parking back in through angled parking so the big idea with a essentially is to is to introduce you know maybe less numbers of trees but more space more volume for trees and the idea that was mentioned earlier in the discussion about some climate strategies that soil volume may become more valuable for carbon retention it's a sequestration for example it also may us allow us to pick trees that actually have a bigger canopy and one of the challenges right now in many urban environments is having very shallow narrow bands and which to plant trees and that limits greatly the species composition you could use so the idea one that's one of the big ideas that the other big idea as you saw was this idea of blurring the lines between the pedestrian space and the vehicular space this idea of tabling some of the streets to allow for more flow of people and that that may be a very good long-term strategy for the city because that is a situation where as the needs for cars changes as the needs for transit changes as the city comes to terms with a new future in terms of mobility it can claim more of that space for pedestrians in a more adaptive way when you have hard curb lines that's a much more challenging situation so there's a lot of value potentially I'm looking at curbless streets in select areas as we were recommending to allow you to adapt as the role around us changes so in terms of concept B again some of the same overall kind of high level priorities getting more trees on there improving the pedestrian experience I think one of the key distinctive factor or elements of this plan is the idea of incorporating grade separated bike lanes on main street and that so that's what came out of that barian main scoping study we pretty much followed that as a guideline for this concept and so when we were developing these concepts I'm just going back to concept A we realized that that sort of you know that is an opportunity cost in terms of the pedestrian and tree environment to put in that dedicated bike infrastructure on main street and so in A we did look at you know what if what if we just kept bikes on the road and main street with just sherros and maybe some traffic calming and then looked at some locations off of main to provide that important north south circulation to get to the bike path and create that larger connectivity beyond the downtown core and so with A we would look at the option of Elm Street really being serving that function with a cycle track and then having connectivity crossing state street past the existing or sorry the proposed parking garage and making its way down to the to the bike path from there so but we wanted to look at what this looked like in terms of character and what you know how that would feel to have those to have the dedicated bike lanes there's also I think in general just because we are giving a little more room to the bike lanes and in this case maintaining more on-street parking this is a view of state street it meant that we have less space for the trees and so we're looking at tree grates an option B throughout the area just because they take up you know less the impact the sidewalk less and allow you to kind of walk walk right across their surface of them so for concept B for Langdon Street we did not carry that special pavement across the street but we did in this one create a wider sidewalk for the north side and we're able to achieve that again by eliminating eliminating a row of parking so again this one's a little bit more a little less outside the box and then we captured all that what it meant in terms of parking on concept B and it's interesting because even though we had more of an emphasis on maintaining on-street parking in concept B it actually ended up working out fairly even because we were able to have a little more angled parking on the north stretch of main street with concept A so in terms of recommendations I'll put this one back to Mark this is talking about kind of land use strategy yeah so you know as we mentioned I think the you know the land use opportunity that exists is to sort of reclaim the riparian zone and that this is something that's already codified within the city regulations it's already there I think the commitment will be in executing on it ultimately and also prioritizing it in terms of its strategy but the couple key things that we sort of thought would be relevant to this conversation would be you know making sure that there's a wider green corridor for sure making sure that we have adequate parking and if that parking is at the rear of some of those buildings which it is today largely making sure there's ways to get to it and that's really critical and I think there's some there's some unutilized underutilized lots on main street for example that provides some connectivity that Jacob's plot behind may change some level of connectivity to those areas is going to be critical if they if they redevelop if they if there's an infill opportunity there but the real the real big sort of sort of major objective here is to connect the river to the people make sure that the civic space the public realm the streetscape is actually in some meaningful way connected back to the river because that appreciation for the river that the understanding that the river is an important part of the community that openness to it the visibility of it provides a more direct connection between people and and that environmental resource and we feel like that would be a great opportunity to make sure people don't realize it's just not out of out of sight out of mind it's actually integrated within the city yes in it in analyzing concept a and concept b we went through this kind of methodical approach to tracking what we really thought were the important goals and so we we developed these evaluation criteria and then rated them and basically it looked like concept a in most ways was coming out on top you know there's some there were similar maybe one construction costs was maybe a little bit more favorable for option b but this was an important way to like make sure we were really just being objective about it and and we have more detail on the report that talks about each of these particular criteria and why why it got that rating so in terms of our final recommendations in general option a is what we're recommending we've got more support from the public from that for that option and it's you know really has a kind of more elevated placemaking component to it we did ultimately recommend a bit of a hybrid in that there is a kind of a chunk of of option b that we thought might make sense and that's on state street between the Rialto bridge and main street where you could create and improve pedestrian environment you've got enough area to work with to kind of narrow the current roadway and and maintain on street parking so they're sort of trying to factor in the you know balance of competing interest and you know the one of the business owners you know to have you know comfort in in the amount of kind of convenient parking but also making sure we're addressing the needs to improve the pedestrian environment and create more real meaningful green space as well we are kind of maintaining this recommendation of a really enhanced and special treatment for the Rialto bridge and I was going to say something else I can't remember what I was yeah I think that that kind of encapsulates oh I know what it was I think in terms of like Mark mentioned flexibility you know as as a need for parking here might lessen over time you do still have the opportunity to continue with the use of these parklets and I think that's really creative and flexible way to capture some of that street space and make it usable for outdoor dining and seating things like that we did also just kind of make some basic recommendations in terms of the materials and furnishings this is mainly kind of giving a sense of what we think the character of that should be given this is a historic downtown but also some discussion of kind of durability of these different materials and some of the environmental benefits you'd have from things like permeable pavers so this is kind of a little snapshot of what we think is kind of the vision for that kind of look and feel as you get to more of that that detail level and this captures the hybrid approach to the overall streetscape in terms of the tree tree treatment and parking so on on balance there's relatively little loss on balance there's relatively little loss overall of parking with the presumption that the parking garage is constructed and that that the streetscape can benefit from some access to spaces in that parking garage we also discuss a number of other potential strategies to help with the parking situation and those are all outlined in there and a lot of that's drawn upon a previous parking study that was done we also have stand tech consulting on our team and their traffic engineers and civil engineers and they they've provided their their guidance for that as well as all of our vehicular and bike pad kind of recommendations we've had just this very multi-disciplinary approach to this project and going back to the Elm Street one other thing on that is to make that cycle track concept work you need to go to one way traffic for that block that would be proposed is heading south and then to address some of the issues with traffic safety and pedestrian safety at that intersection there'd be a no left turn from Elm Street on the state street Mark do you want to speak to the implementation yeah I mean as is as is customary with a project like this there's some consideration of how would you go about doing it and and we tried to break this these different street segments down into some smaller but bits because quite frankly you're going to you're going to want to do that to maintain the you know functionality of the streets and the interim and and businesses and all of that there obviously costs associated with all of these things but I think and there's process ahead I think the the you know the really important detailed design work would come as as each one of these segments has moved forward but I think the you know a couple of key things that I think are really important that the implementation matrix sort of discusses is that the expectation is is that some of the stormwater strategies that are articulated in the plan would be done commensurate with some of these streetscape improvements so that again it's a it's you're building this system of solutions that deal with the place making elements the pedestrian elements the bike elements and the stormwater management elements so that's really critical the other thing is is that and we've spoken with public works throughout this project is that there's also as was mentioned earlier obviously existing infrastructure issues that the cities dealing with and it would be advisable to consider what those projects are and aligning them with particular streetscape improvements so that you're taking advantage of the disruption and the mobilization associated with that and then the other thing I think that's really important is to is to sort of stress is that for any of these projects most of these projects there is going to have to be a public private interaction you know obviously some of those open spaces that were identified as potential options are open spaces that may exist or partially exist on private land and it's clearly not the city's ability to just do what they want with that but to work in in a partnership with those private land owners with a strategic vision to help guide those interactions so anyways that's what we see this is sort of helping to do the good news is you know I think the and this obviously the city already explored this to some degree with its the scoping study previous scoping study is that there's a lot of a lot of this that probably can be done in the relatively near term you know obviously with with caveats and the logistics associated with that but a lot of what we're talking about the scale of this downtown as Patrick said is really walkable so you have the benefit of not being overly large so you know the a small improvement on stage three for example would make a very disproportionate impact on the character of your downtown so that's actually a very positive thing the other thing I would just sort of acknowledge in the in the just to kind of summarize the the report a little bit more there's a there's a there's a significant one of the things that we pitch to the city when we proposed on this project was this modeling exercise that watershed did to understand the water quality benefits of potentially some of these options and as you'll see in the study there are obviously some similarities there's pretty close alignment in some of those options in terms of the water quality improvements but we think it provides an interesting model for the city to consider as it's as it's refining these these opportunities in the future to kind of kind of go back to that modeling and say okay how is it how is it evolving are we actually achieving some of these objectives that the modeling suggests we can achieve in terms of phosphorus reduction for example or the retention of storm water so there's some really good things I think that the as a strategic document it puts into place things that you can use in the city's plan update for example or as you have your continued conversations around storm water or in some ways this fills the donut hole that your complete streets guide which didn't really cover this part of the city does it provides a little bit of a more clarity as to maybe what the direction could be so I think this is really an opportunity for us and the public to just check in say if we're headed in the right direction what feedback do we have at this point so comments from council comments yes I thought that was excellent thanks so much it was very easy to digest and I think we have a lot to look forward to if some of this is implemented not to be the doing of the day guide but the garage is not built is my math correct that this plan would anticipate between 31 and 47 less parking spots downtown and we have currently that's probably all right okay I think this is there but if your the highway plan is a little bit less but okay you gotta be right on the number yeah so we can sorry okay so I have I have lots of thoughts here okay so this feels to me like a good start there are questions that I am hoping that this plan will answer for us that I don't feel like there's good I just want to make sure that you are aware that these are some of the expectations that I have for this one is I think we need specific guidance on what do we do with the TKS property right what is the what is the need there is it for office space or is it for more green space and you know if if the recommendation is like that yes that should be included in the repairing buffer great like but just be really clear about that space because we have to make a decision so that's one thing this is I'm doing this in no particular order by the way I think it was a little weird the way the document was attached or uploaded somehow because the appendices were at the beginning and so that was read that first yes so write all the appendices first and actually to that point if you're going to include those appendices there are a whole bunch of graphs in there that are bar graphs that have no labels and I don't know what they mean so yeah it was you know what to do about Langdon street and main street and there were x y axes that had no labels and it was like what is happening so that's that's a not terribly substantive point for Langdon street I sort of half expected there to be at least the consideration of like what if it was just what if it was just a walking plaza what if it was closed to cars I mean church street is closed to cars but cars still go on it to make deliveries and stuff which would understandably be necessary um can I talk to yes please yeah so you know the idea is that it was describing that the festival street idea yeah can you go out use them on the big one that's not work sorry as Patrick was describing you know in concept a the idea and b to some degree but a certainly the idea of turning it into more of a festival street getting rid of curves making it feel more pedestrian you know that is the recommendation for Langdon street you know whether the city wants to permanently close that the design wouldn't necessarily need to change our office is actually on church street we did the church street marketplace project thanks yeah so quite familiar with the rankling that went across at the rusty scuffer next door but the idea is that it would still have to provide access there's going to be access for service there's going to be access for fire there's going to be access for public works there's going to need to maintain some vehicular access to Langdon street so removable ballards for example are an easy design fix that would allow the city to manage and control the flow of vehicles within Langdon street and it would fit the design really well so if so it would make sense to me then if it's okay with you if you could address that specifically in the report even if it's to say that that is a policy decision that we are not recommending but this structure allows for that possibility that would that would be helpful just because I'm this is a conversation that has been going on for a long time and so for it to be specifically addressed I think would be valuable so I think there's also a little bit of a conversation um can you also or can people here okay so this one isn't working I don't know say stay a little more all right this one will work me I'll get it I'll get it I'll get it just that one all right well that explains it all right so the other consideration that SE group was given when when we started this process was that we weren't proposing to reduce the amount of parking downtown so if if we had a decision that said we're going to take all the on-street parking off then we would have to come up with a proposal that would go and say but we're going to build another parking structure over here to replace that parking just as a part of the policy of what they're working so part of removing the rest of the cars on Langton Street but then put us in a position where we're going to be deficient parking and have to replace it somewhere else so it's it could certainly be be re-accommodated in another way but that was just part of the conversation so sometimes removing everything you know in an ideal world you might be able to come in and pull it all off but where do they where does somebody who wants to go to book spiel or park so if there's no parking and that could also get at the same point that you all are making about like this isn't a policy document necessarily um right and I think it's it's it's a design you know solution that's that's policy ready if you decide to do what you want to do in terms of closing off Langton Street the design is malleable enough to address that okay yeah one one other thing on that I mean I think we did talk about it with Stantec while we're out there and I guess one concern is it's not just the on-street parking there's also parking areas for the businesses there so it has kind of a bigger impact as well but I think we we love pedestrian on these streets so if it could happen that'd be great but yeah is and it I assume it pertains to this yes Dan Groberg from Montpelier Life I'll just add that one advantage of the really flexible scootescape design is that it allows for seasonal changes so we may consider Langton Street being pedestrian only in the summer when we have a lot of pedestrians out and about but in the winter have more approximate parking when it's cold and people don't want to walk as far and that streetscape design allows for that kind of flexibility so I think that's really an exciting option cool thank you I agree and Elizabeth did you have something you want to add on this particular point or okay I'm going to keep going with my did you have something to add on this particular point okay so yeah oh my name is David Papiersky hello everyone so yeah the weather is very different in the winter compared to the summer and I realize this is kind of based on the future parking garage but and in a way Montpelier is already there with the farmers market State Street is already closed down so the idea is after everyone goes home from the state house Monday through Friday there's going to be empty parking garage so people can park there closed down the city and it'll be more pedestrian and bike friendly but that once again is you know dependent upon you know changing in weather and I think it's it's great that these three gentlemen we're discussing about you know environmental concerns and the river as we were just discussing before this climate declaration so I think we should also keep that in mind when we're planning what the future downtown area of Montpelier is going to be and so you know cars are always a problem but then you know if you close down the city streets and there's always you know public transportation from department employment and our unemployment department whatever's called shuttle people back and forth to the downtown area so thank you and it's on this particular topic yes yeah specific yeah hygiene leon district three on the land and street study was there consideration on the dance studio that's there so if you close I like the proposal of take removing one of the parking yeah lanes but there's a a lot of parents throughout the year that just drop off their kids come and go and there's and I'm one of those parents every front and there's a lot of kids in these classes so we're not necessarily looking to park we're just that's you know just drop off pick them and that I've noticed at various times that happens a lot on land and street so yeah it's it'd be tough to just close it off yeah I mean that we did remove it you know so yeah yeah so I mean we did in both schemes maintain parking on one side of the street and I think is a general recommendation if we are losing on-street parking the idea of having more kind of pull-off spaces for temporary parking if you need to do a quick run into a store or something I think is a great idea so we we do appreciate that that sentiment yeah so my next thing might have been addressed because if this is not really addressing policy I mean something we've talked about for a really long time and I you know it's might be yet another long time before we do it is to thinking about reverse angle parking and I mean just as we brought up angled parking here I don't know if that's I assume that's sort of outside of the scope of the things that you would recommend or not but I mean it's not I mean we we did talk about that for that upper stretch of main street where it looked like you could maintain angled parking for a lot of it especially with if you didn't have the dedicated bike lanes so reverse angle parking is something that we've considered I mean I think there's you know some concern that it's just a little bit confusing you know that's that's the that's the challenge of it right it's definitely safer but there's a little bit of a learning curve to it so I think we would keep that you know as a possibility sure well and again if that affects the structure and the angles of anything I suppose well wait but reverse angle park I mean have there been studies about how that works in winter in I mean I have studies there have been studies about its effectiveness in winter it's the safety issue as Patrick mentioned I mean it technically is safer and I don't from a structural perspective from a design perspective what's being shown can accommodate that if that's the policy decision it's just yeah it's a striping thing it's not a big issue I think the question would be and it's kind of a broader question maintenance in general if you're not maintaining your parking right spaces then it's a problem right it just I mean I've done the reverse angle parking and it you know looking at the normal angle parking and the difficulty we have in winter in demarcating the spaces and getting people to park I could see yeah and I just wondered if other we have an office in Colorado and Denver and we go to Denver all the time and there's a lot of reverse angle parking in Denver and when they have their periodic snow storms it's a challenge for sure well the perhaps a future conversation so you mentioned the possibility of having permeable pavers very interested in that I'm also I I feel conflicted about it because I both do you really want them to work and I also am skeptical about their efficacy or they're really their durability in this climate yeah and I've always kind of wondered like so I know that there are places in Europe that do this and they have freeze cost cycles and what are they what are they doing and so I don't know if you have a specific recommendations about that but does it matter like what's underneath them what can you say about that yeah well I guess first of all I would just say that it's becoming more mainstream and we've worked now on a couple projects that included downtown in South Burlington in the new city center that has a band of permeable pavers and those are clay brick pavers that are very durable and resistant to salt damage and basically you just have a very deep crushed aggregate base supporting the bricks they have little nubs that kind of keep that space between them and allows that water to go through so you know I think we feel confident that it's a reliable method there is a little bit of maintenance that you have to periodically kind of clear out the the joints and make sure that it's flowing but I think there's other permeable paver applications that have been less reliable like pay permeable concrete for example which is a poured in place concrete that has larger pores that allows the water to go through and that has been susceptible to lots of spalling from salts and is not as reliable but the pavers in particular clay brick pavers I think are you can are solid with the necessity to clean them out not for right now but it'd be good to include any information about what kind of time commitment that would would be so that we have an understanding of the ongoing sort of maintenance of that yeah we can be planning for that you can add that yep and then I just want to point out I mean I I am psyched to see the riparian buffer in their recognizing that it's mostly on private property yeah I just want to make sure that I am clear about this point that if we ended up adopting a plan that had a riparian buffer as proposed that that that as itself would not constitute a taking but if it were adopted into the city plan that it might is that what what can you tell me about what would constitute a taking in that situation oops only if it gets into the to the zoning where there's a certain requirement and you you can still do it without it being a taking it just has to be the riparian buffer will not be the taking it's the public access that becomes the taking now because something like say the Jacob's lot is already public then it's just a matter of I think negotiating the details that are within that lease agreement that says you have to maintain a certain number of parking spaces but bill knows that agreement much better than I do okay so if it makes it into the zoning and if it restricts public access if it requires public access we cannot we cannot give public access to private property without just compensation okay thank you for that clarification sorry those maybe those well anyway there was a lot of questions thank you Glenn just a thing or two this is great and I love it in general I wanted to highlight one thing that I liked in particular from one of the very first slides the pedestrian opportunities the north south access between streets that are not currently easily connected by pedestrian routes like Diane who was talking earlier about the climate emergency declaration I am car free and I walk all over town all the time and those little green paths on the right side of main street make me very happy to think about and I'm looking forward to something like that just if I can make a point about that when we when we did our initial walk around right here in the Blanchard lot that was kind of one of the first things ideas that kind of popped out because it clearly is a remnant grid that has been lost and I think they're going back to the sort of the overarching strategy that's sort of exemplified by this opportunities plan it's sort of reconstructing the grid a little bit but with a D emphasis on cars and an emphasis on pedestrians and I think that's a really kind of it could be a very innovative strategy for the city because that north south connectivity is one of the biggest sort of drawbacks and having some mid block you know pedestrian accessibility opens up you know other routes for you to get in and out back to the bike strategy it's another way of capturing people on the intercepting them on the periphery of this core to park and walk in the downtown environment so that they're they're comfortable and the bike's in a safe plot and they get when they need to go and it also provides hopefully as the as the infill opportunities happen like with this on this the court street property if that ever builds into a parking garage for example or something else that pedestrian connectivity being established would would enable it to function more integratively into the downtown court. I apologize I have two more but Jack you can go before me I think there's there's a lot to like here I'm kind of with Ann on the pavers and you know kind of skeptical about that my father-in-law spent his whole professional life as a municipal engineer doing roads and stuff and he was up visiting one time and we saw the pavers in front of city center building and his reaction was yeah architectures really love pavers engineers hate him because so his landscape architects are agnostic because you know they screw up the plows and they do all this stuff and so I just need to be convinced about that probably I'm do you want to respond to that right well no I mean I think yeah I understand your concerns I mean I would recommend talking to South Burlington and Burlington because Burlington just put in permanent pavers on St. Paul street too that's kind of the first phase of their Great Streets project that includes a lot of storm water kind of innovative storm water management integrated into the streetscape permanent pavers and they're using concrete pavers South Burlington is using clay brick pavers so I would recommend I mean it's it's newly installed so you know see how it see how it does over time but I think we're talking to them and seeing what their experience is thanks I'm a bit concerned about and I probably need to be convinced and concerned about the safety of the zero curb concept because you know I just picture you know a curb is one of the things that really tells pedestrians that they're on the sidewalk or they're on the street and we already have some issues with people heedlessly stepping into the street or being getting hit by cars right few things on that I mean I think for all those areas where we're proposing that you would have a detectable warning strip that identifies the edge of the pedestrian zone so if anyone's visually impaired they would know that they're then crossing into the street I think it's even for non-visually impaired people would be a visual kind of marker on that edge we also are showing bollards in a lot of those locations that would be another visual kind of marker for that I think in terms of nighttime you'd want to have make sure you have really good lighting in those locations so I think a lot of those concerns can be addressed and one of the other aspects of the concept day was the raised planters so one of the benefits of actually having those raised planters there is they actually create some of that edge as well so as it is supposed to grade it graded trees and then one last thing that I want to were you going to follow up on what I'm saying only just to that thing about the curbless yeah if I could because again as a and this is going to be just anecdotal but as a pedestrian the curbless streets tend to feel safer to me in a certain way because they tend to be limited they tend to be short and it's it's always been very well visually signaled so that drivers and pedestrians understand that this is a shared space everyone goes slowly I think the other thing that occurs to me is that in a lot of the dangerous behavior I see of pedestrians crossing feels like it's crossing at odd spots where there are not crosswalks I think funneling more of that activity into places like this that are curbless may actually end up being safer speculative but I I can see that being the effect so I really like that part of the idea as well and I think having you know really good signage to to mark that as well is important for drivers and then the last thing I was going to make which is really kind of a small technical thing and we get our council materials electronically for something like that and and it's it's great and I don't I hardly print out anything for something like this that is so so graphic heavy visual I think it'd be I would find it useful to have have it on these full side paper size papers like like you guys have okay let us know whoever wants them and Kevin will print them out and we'll get them out to you guys and sign them tonight so I have I have a question about circulation for cars which is that you know I should say overall I like the the changes I mean I'll remain agnostic on the pavers as well but I do like the effect that they create tonight I like the idea of a public plaza space that spills out and into a bigger area but my concern is that you know Main Street is a huge funnel for traffic coming from the north there's no other way for them to get across the river and you know cars coming from East Montpelier down Main Street cars coming from Route 12 cars also coming in you know that don't that don't turn off onto Route 2 I mean is there what is the plan to sort of make a circulation or is it just simply that this this plan accepts the traffic as it's as it is because I think one of the issues at least with the pedestrian some of the safety issues is that cars coming through downtown Montpelier get frustrated because it's a series of stop stop stop stop stop even when you know say like a traffic signal says green but there's two crosswalks in front of it and so cars get stuck and I've seen people get very frustrated at that you know is there any plan or any idea for making the downtown really as we make it more pedestrian friendly perhaps giving cars alternate ways of getting across the river I don't I don't think that's something we've explored I mean I yeah there's a couple other things in terms of the circulation on main street we're kind of going with the the recommendations that came out of that very main scoping study which would include a traffic light at the berry and main intersection as well as a mini round about at the school street a main intersection so I don't know how much you can really do to deal with those sort of larger circulation issues but I mean I think having a little bit of frustration for drivers in a downtown is sort of to be expected true it's just it's I mean it's not someone coming into downtown and thinking you know like if I turn on to downtown on on Bailey and then and past the state house I know I'm going into downtown making a choice to do that right as opposed to somebody coming from the north they really have no choice but to go to downtown off of that is that putting them through a neighborhood or something you know right there's always a trade-off with that and I understand but I mean I just wonder you know as we make this more pedestrian friendly which I support I like the idea of that I just you know seeing on Saturday morning the amount of traffic like it's blocked on main street seeing the level of frustration I think people experience when they're stuck in that traffic when they don't want to be when they don't they're not it's one thing to go through downtown like you know you know you go to Manhattan and you're frustrated you have no one to blame but yourself but you know if if you can't avoid doing it to just get to the other place you want to get to I think that would be a highly yeah I think the other thing that just to you know one thing that recognizes is that the strategy A and B there's there's some flexibility there they're not mutually exclusive right so the the the emphasis on pedestrianization can be achieved in different ways depending on on considerations like what you're describing well and and and I'm I'm thinking you know I go back when I started in in some of the planning work we had we we have the old cityscape that imagined a pedestrian completely pedestrian downtown but they also had a circulator that was essentially school street court street I think they were going to break through the hillside on Cedar to get there I'm not sure how they imagined that but it was the 70s it was a different time it was a bubble exactly there was an air bridge or something but nevertheless I mean I I think that is the thing that I see that's missing here is that how do we deal with this because the traffic is only going to increase as we encourage people you know as there's development to the north and communities grow I just I wonder you know if we don't set ourselves up for this problem that will not go away and will get worse and so you know the the traffic backs up at certain times a day and a lot of times a day and it's going to continue to do that and that may feed people's frustration and take away from really the enjoyment of the downtown as as it is because you have this constant flow of traffic through it I think you know the point you're it's again it's a policy question ultimately and I think it's if you're putting a marker down through a project like this a plan like this that says we as a city want this to be a more pedestrian walkable downtown consequences that you're going to I mean we did the St. Albin streetscape and you know that that is their main street and there was there's now been alternate routes discovered by locals that live near St. Albin sure and and that's what's happened so there would be some transference of mobility for people who don't want to deal with that I think the but that does not mean it's not a good idea to reclaim your main street for pedestrians right I know what happens elsewhere I don't disagree I just like I would like to see I guess it's just one member I would like to see some consideration to that other than simply say well you know nature will find a way I think we can bring up that that issue and that question to stand tech to the traffic engineers in our team just see what they say I mean my guess is they'll say it requires another larger study but you know it may may need that really have a definitive answer if there are options is this about this but yeah and then and then more I think the question the policy decision is to make a concerted effort that we really talk about not having that second car not bringing your car downtown increasing mobility the microtransit is one of those choices ride share car I mean it's lots of ways we can try to help reduce traffic downtown but it'll take a real massive concerted effort I don't disagree with that well I also want to just jump in here and I just want to make sure that you're where we had that very main street a scoping study with some traffic changes planned for that right no I mean I I did review that as well but I you know I'm really particularly and have seen you know especially from the north that comes down and it's not the bear I understand we fix the very you know that that addresses that but you know and I think there is that you know there are those people that that's the way to get that's the only way gets her town so microtransit may not be the solution if you're coming from Morrisville and you want to get on the highway that you have to come through and I I just use that as example I understand there are other routes but you know East Montpelier may be a better example but I think that's just it's it's a concern and and it something we should be thinking about not just simply in a way of of doing that policy but you know is there how are we going to actually handle this on the streets with this additional traffic okay thank you Lauren I just wanted to it might be more of a statement although if you had any more examples to provide I definitely heard a lot throughout of some examples of really looking at kind of flexibility over time because I do hope that we are moving away from a heavy reliance on single occupancy vehicles and that you know so I think the flexibility in this design I really like where we could claim more space for pedestrians and bikes over time as we move in that direction just kind of curious and it's a little bit to Dan's point from earlier of the kind of how much it definitely seems like some thought was put into it but how kind of cohesive is the you know the city with the net zero goal and are you know knowing that with a changing climate and everything we need to be developing resilient infrastructure for the new kind of climate we're going to have moving forward and just just wanted to hear a little bit more about kind of how that has been embedded I heard a couple examples that you raised but just how much how kind of synced up is this plan with helping us achieve our net zero goals and also just the reality of a changing climate and that it's going to be resilient over the long term the kinds of materials and everything that we're proposing to put in yeah I think well I think a few things we could speak to I think you know talk about sustainability I mean one of the one of the things of sustainability I think is durability and planning for you know something that's going to last so I think that's that's embedded in it I think getting more more green in the downtown core through trees that can actually thrive and have enough rooting volume to grow well is key to our plan you know so I didn't get into the details of it but with the permeable paving the idea with that would be that you'd have this subsurface soil that would be supported in these there's different ways of doing it but there's soil cells basically these structures below grade that can support the pavement and allow you to have good planting soil and so we kind of learned in the recent years that trees need a lot of volume to actually thrive and so the old idea of just putting a pit in the ground and surrounding it with with pavement and not doing anything other than that it doesn't really work that well long-term usually so really investing in that tree infrastructure so that's that can have multiple environmental benefits from cleaning the air uptake of pollutants through the roots shading the you know pavement shading cars so that if you know there's just it's more it's just you know there's energy savings there shading buildings making a cooler environment for yeah for the cars and buildings so I think those are some of the main things we're looking at and then also just the idea of like bolstering the riparian buffer and adding storm water storage and treatment we're doing those things in this plan and trying to integrate it in a way that like works and works with the other kind of goals that we have so based on that Elizabeth would you like to say anything speak to just any of that yeah just real quick I'd like to thank Mark and Patrick for a great presentation and terrific work thank you glad that you brought the watershed group along because storm water is going to be a big part of managing the downtown so I'd like to make two points to before you get too far could you identify yourself please I'm sorry Elizabeth Courtney I live here in town on Clarendon Avenue thanks so two recommendations one substantive and one a little frivolous but we could use a little levity I think at this hour of the evening uh so recommendation number one is to recognize storm water as an issue that is going to get bigger and bigger for us and take that bow by the horns and extend our study of the effects of increased storm water on the downtown from high points draining down into the town from the river climbing up into the town we've got we've got a water issue could we extend the work with SE group and watershed consulting and or make sure that the declaration of emergency has an element of the issue of storm water in it needing recognizing storm water is something that we need to pay attention to my frivolous point has to do with the title of this report a capital idea and I would rather see this title have something to do with the clock tower of city hall as opposed to the state capital dome and you will recognize that Taylor street is the bright line that we didn't cross in this study and yet we have the capital gold dome pictured in the yes so so and if we had a clock tower our clock tower as the symbol for this report we would be able to say rather than it's a capital idea it's an idea that we have no time to waste on because we have an emergency and with that I'll say good night thank you you all are wonderful and you can say tiny report although they did they did spell capital within a so they were talking about the city not to build it's still on the other side of Taylor street I do want to just note Elizabeth that we did add some language to the proposed resolution that actually identified Montpelier's issues with increased stormwater and snowfall actually yes Connor did or I thought I saw a hand over here very quickly did you consider temporary bike lanes in this I know in a previous presentation that had been something brought up I know personally I bike almost every day in the town but I wait too much of a coward to do it in this weather so I imagine some people might be like me so yeah just want to know if that was considered how difficult would it would it be to set up if so and was that with the idea of just testing out bike lanes oh that's seasonal oh just that's seasonal we did not explore that as a an idea no could kick it or could kick it around yeah okay all right okay I have one more sort of big things sorry this is maybe towards the it's not exactly frivolous but leaning that way perhaps I mean something that has come up in other conversations that I've had with people around town sometimes people dream about a river walk that goes between the Rialto bridge and Langdon street okay was that on the radar and if it was and it was you know like that's a bad plan then you know that okay we didn't explore it as a connection all the way to Langdon street but as an overhanging sort of seeded area right which we were very excited about and then just quickly realized understood that it's due to FEMA kind of like regulation we can't it's not not doable okay well that that's actually really helpful yeah FEMA yeah sort of prevent thank you that helps so when that conversation comes up again then that's what I can say yeah so in that same sort of mindset though because the point of that would be to enjoy the river right and that was one of the things that you said was the goal and so I'll just say that something that I have always like wanted is like the the walkway a lot or the both sidewalks along the main street bridge there I mean the I always want to just stop and enjoy the river right there and I don't know that you can really widen the bridge and so that's it's probably not realistic to think of any sort of overlooks along the bridge there but and I know this is private properties so maybe that's not really realistic to have some kind of a place to enjoy the river here but that would be delightful and if not on the bridge and if not in this space to you know watch the waterfall is there another place that might be fun to I mean in some of I know we're we're talking about I'm going to orient myself here yeah so like roughly in that space we're talking about having more green space is the anyway I would love to explore that as just places of delight right like where are the delightful places to sit and enjoy in this venue to answer your correct question directly I think we did we did look at a number of potential opportunities and a couple that I'll point out the Rialto bridge is an intersection point between the public realm and the river so that's a really good opportunity now we're obviously hamstrung by virtue of female regulations to doing something grand and we actually we're very we were very excited about the opportunity with that didn't avail itself I would say where the Shaw's is for example you know as it stands today that's very challenging but it's not a foregone conclusion that at some point Shaw's redevelops and what I think the this plan does and I think what the city's commitment to looking at that riparian zone might do as institute as institute through policy eventually is when that becomes redeveloped the city's priority would be provide meaningful open space that actually engages the river that's the ask they have to provide open space they have to provide a buffer anyway you have the regulations say that now it's the the conversation with the redevelopment of that particular property would be we want to make that not just open space we want to make connected and functional open space that's part of this opportunity to see the river to engage with the river because that that as I mentioned earlier that you have a great opportunity to make sure that people see the river not just as a thing that's sort of in a bubble and preserve forever but it's part of the urban fabric and I think that would be an opportunity for that to happen well and and I just want to also point out like this space here which is not I mean that's not our property yes that's but it would make a great riverfront park as it's going to be great and I'd love to explore like what that could look like and and also so as we're looking at stormwater I think at one point I had this conversation with you about like let's make this plan really visual and I just want to reiterate especially with the stormwater what is what does it look like to be robust in terms of that park space that you just pointed out there the riverfront park right off the Langdon I mean we could picture that as being something where you're really integrating stormwater with a kind of a park environment and maybe a sort of like tiered kind of stepping down to the river and there could be capturing stormwater and treating it and making it a visual sort of gardening kind of amenity so I mean getting into really detailed plans for any of those individual parcels wasn't really part of this but we we're into that cool awesome and I think I saw Glenn and then Donna yeah just on the question of riverfront spots and thinking about the main street bridge I'm curious about the south bank of the Winooski at the main street bridge because on both sides of the bridge there it is already at least grass and trees in a bench and we put the the winter parking band sign up on the the left side coming into town I don't know I mean it's sort of a cliff but I think it might be worth looking at that the south side of Winooski am I am I wrong saying it that way okay I was along the oil drive on your left going oh there is a little park yes but it's outside of this zone yeah it's outside of the zone I don't know who owns it but right it is green on the river yeah we have a bench there yeah we don't own it we have a bench there no we didn't okay good yeah I mean I think the more you can take advantage of those opportunities along the river to create some public space that people would use yeah and I think in in in that spot to me it might be just a question of looking at it again and and thinking about how that's oriented where what the bench is looking at right now it's looking at the intersection which is fun but the cars exactly it's facing the intersection okay yes Donna you asked earlier about the property against the drawing board and they have it as a semi-rectangular green space there now are they following up on that because they don't designate any of the rest as green that's along the shared youth path near that spot that just did or our new footbridge are you talking about the empty lot right there yeah yeah so we show that as potential infill or like a pocket park space so kind of throwing out either option I think from our general recommendations that we're putting out there is the idea that we had that section that kind of show the river to main street we think we should kind of you should try to maybe emphasize the public open space natural kind of corridor along the river and then go more towards the infill as you get closer to main street same in terms of where that priority should happen so we be leaning towards infill I think for that spot one thing we did talk about in this in the report though you'll see in recommendations is that if that does get infilled if it's a building for example and again the uses are going to be driven by the market and the city's priorities and all of those sorts of things but one of the opportunities that exist is to look at the frontage of that building as it relates to main street maybe a little bit differently as you can see on the plan you have a pretty straight line of building facades on main street and one of the things that oftentimes in an urban environment that really makes that dynamic is having some of these four courts in buildings that provide a little open space in the front of a building so that would be a great opportunity to to argue for a four court on a building like that to allow that that frontage to actually have a quasi public you know gathering point and still be able to provide a productive use in terms of multi-story building so I think it's going to be that's one of the things that the strategies are sort of talking about it's not it's not necessarily finding the big place for open space it's trying to make it where you can and I would also say in the studies talks about this is even on the on the roofs of some of these buildings could be green space open space so you can look at open space you know one of the things I think the studies trying to do is sort of think have you think about open space maybe a little bit differently as a city would in that it's not just necessarily reserved conserved green space it can be parklets it can be you know four courts of buildings that have some benches and a little plant area and on some art it can be all of those things can contribute to this civic minded open space that's presents presents itself to the public Lauren did you have something to no okay um I think any uh yeah Elizabeth again probably taking the words out of dance mouth but uh these are great ideas and with a little bit of interpretive signage you could turn this town into you know a magnet for people and in the state to come learn how to manage stormwater and um they of course would want to spend the night they would want to eat and drink in town and buy stuff so it would be good are you suggesting stormwater tourism stormwater tourism there you go all the state initials stormwater stormwater management tourism no not at all no that would have been well much more intelligent hearts beating in my mouth no um you glossed over a little bit the point that this plan is dependent on the parking garage and I know that you here don't need to hear this again but I want to make the point anyway for the people listening at home that I think when we talked about the parking garage we talked about these opportunities where we can you know maybe remove some on-screen parking spaces in order to improve the pedestrian experience to create more open space to create environmental opportunities and stormwater treatment opportunities this is what we were talking about so the you know the so-called friends of Montpelier they're not friends to pedestrians they're not friends to bicyclists and they're not friends to the environment when they're opposing the parking garage because the parking garage is what it would take to provide a new way of looking at our downtown that's going to create great energy that's going to allow people to park on the outskirts of the core downtown and then have a walking experience that's you know full of those moments of excitement and energy that that we were talking about so I think that's really important for everyone to recognize that we need those parking opportunities on the outskirts so that we can reconsider our street and it's not an efficient use of our streets to have on-street parking structured parking is a much more efficient and viable way to have people park so I just want to reiterate that as we're considering these plans that it but for having a parking garage they're all pie in the sky dreams because we need places for people to park to be able to shop and to enjoy our downtown so the parking garage is really critical to this piece so I just want to make sure we're not glossing over that that that's at the core of this discussion thank you this is a great point Dan if some of the vacant existing vacant areas or spots where maybe land current landowners are not open to like next to Charliol's there was a park there was it was built so like that space there which I think is essential to have you know one of these how do you deal with that if if you know or is there a proposal to offer any of these private abandoned sectors I don't know you know how to deal with it I know I know I know there's a lot that we own and control but obviously there's a lot that we don't as well and when we develop these plans we recognize there are going to be opportunities that exist on private property that may be necessary to make connections and so what we do is we point them out and identify what our opportunities are and we decide whether that's something that we think is a good idea and then we recognize that there's obviously a barrier to implementation and that barrier is the fact that we don't own that property in some cases that barrier may be relatively low we may have a willing partner in the private sector who's willing to work with us and says hey great I can get an advantage out of this because it's better for my customers it's better for the people who live there other people are more challenging to work with when it comes to acquiring property and we just have to recognize that so when we highlight something it says hey this would be a great place for a park or for redevelopment we just have to sit down you know afterwards to go and say yeah there's a great opportunity but the cost to actually getting that to happen is is higher than we're willing to spend so but that's a policy decision of the city council from a planner's perspective we want to put those opportunities in front of you and say here's a great opportunity but here's it's the barrier that sits there as well so certainly there are a few examples in here that are privately owned properties that that could be redeveloped and sometimes we get the opportunities I would point out for something like Shaw's you know we mentioned earlier about we can't require public access on a on a private redevelopment but almost every large project that has come through the city they have come asking for a public private partnership they would like something from the city to enable their project to move forward maybe it's tax stabilization maybe it's these other things now in the zoning regulations we can't consider that public access at all but when somebody comes in for a tax stabilization when somebody comes in for a public private partnership to say hey I can do this great project but I need some help from the city that's when you have the opportunity to go and say well if we're going to help you out want you to help us out we'd love to go and use your your riparian buffer as an opportunity for us to have some green space and that's where these public private partnerships come in we can't do it through zoning but we can do it through other tools and certainly when somebody comes to you with their handout for an assistance on the project there's an opportunity for you to work with them to make an agreement great any further comments okay thank you for all your time and I've done this project it's great I'm looking forward to doing it again for each yeah yeah so I guess there's for anyone who's who's listening or any anyone on the council you know we we did put they did put together this recommendation just so that way you guys have have it in front of you could start getting input and comment from folks in the community and you can send us questions and the whole point is to to get this out here and get another little round of conversation going we're not looking to kind of re reopen everything for restudy but we do want to hear where there might be things that maybe we overlooked that we should take another look at so um Donna we'll be back one more time oh okay what's my question so you'll be back one more time yes so it's really important the public also understands that yes okay thank you thank you make one more comment could Patrick and Mark make the boards available we're here in this room some months ago to have a show in the hallway so that people can just drop in and get a put them out in the hallway yeah we wouldn't give you the boards from a couple months ago because they've changed yes yeah the current ones yeah that would be helpful super especially town meeting day yeah the town meeting would be good Glenn did you have something anything further yeah hello my name is David Papiersky I was just curious what is the timeline for starting and finishing the construction this summer quite changing just a question it's so the the initial concept of of this plan actually comes from the fact that we can look ahead and know that the Rialto Bridge was going to need to get reconstructed at some point and so we were actually looking specifically at State Street and then it grew into the downtown the the idea is we don't really know when we would be starting but in order to build it into a project we need to have first the master plan identified what do we want to see do we want bike lanes or not want bike lanes do we want on-street parking or not want on-street parking we needed the big questions answered so we could start building some plans so that way when the Rialto Bridge is replaced we can also do the sidewalks on either end of it when when we the question of when we would start a project like this is you know it's up to a lot of projects funding the will of people willing to to bond and spend money but we're really we wanted to get the plans going and it would be something that would take a little bit of time it's not something that's going to be in next year's budget it's going to take some time I guess I thought we were going to sort of piecemeal it because the Rialto Bridge is moving along I mean in the regional tack we see it two and a half three years yeah if that's happening that quick then if we don't have this plan in place then that gets done but so we want to have the plan in place so we can do that and do it the way we want it and likewise every time we have another capital improvement grant it's just an opportunity to know where we want to go so I don't see it as a big here we are I see it bit by bit happening as we get the money and the grants to do it yes and I think Bill and Donna would probably agree with that that it's probably not one big bond bond for 16 million dollars and start start the big dig it's going to be a it'll be a piecemeal project and then and as I said the timing really comes in where the opportunities present themselves and one will be the Rialto Bridge if that's in two and a half years then we're probably needing to hustle to get to what these guys would be going and getting into design and getting design documents so that way they're in place in time for the bid bridge because you would bid the entire project so and Mike's right there's a probably about two year plus time lag between the idea and and design and design drawings because there is going to be some permitting there is going to be some landowner negotiation there is going to be obviously the level of detail will get considerably refined relative to the concept that's presented so if it's three years that clock tower thing is looking better every minute okay thank you again thank you so much yeah thank you okay so it is a little after nine um yes Donna I would request a point so here's my proposal I would like to be leaving here at least by 10 and I would love to like reserve an hour to do the c-manager evaluation it's going to be probably less than that now probably less than that yeah so um I I if I get obviously that's okay no no well so what I would propose is that we're that we push off the legislative agenda piece until next meeting unfortunately I'm sorry I know I know well we were late to start anyway so two minutes yeah no no I mean like with the idea of a legislative anyway so uh if we could take that if you're if you're okay with that team I just that yeah like the one thing I'd say is I think at the very least somebody whether it be a volunteer and I can probably take a whack at it should look through all the committee schedules every week to see what are on the agenda is an interesting today today two things came up and I looked at it it's a pilot mobile mental health unit for the city of Rutland to deal with homeless population that they're asking $400,000 for so we're fighting over peanuts here you know we should be in there looking at stuff like that state employee parking was on the agenda today in senate government operations I think we should be in the conversation on those things at the very least just looking at the agendas for the week hey Ken Russell maybe you should pop over there and check it out so one possibility is that we do council reports now and then go into exe