Mayor Pro Tem who is not here yet. Yeah, I think we have a quorum. Let's see Mark Anthony middle team as well. Great. Good morning, everyone. I would like to call this meeting to order. This is a special budget work session of the Durham city council. It is 9am on May 27th, 2021. The mayor is running a little bit late, but asks us to go ahead and get started. Oh, and he's not running late. There he is. Steve, I just called us to order. Perfect. Thank you, Madam Mayor Pro Tem. Absolutely. Good morning all. Morning. City Hall. Great place to be. Madam Clerk, will you please call the roll? Mayor Schuyl. Here. Mayor Pro Tem Johnson. Here. And some member Caballero. Here. And some member Freelon. Here. And some member Freeman. Present. I'm here. And some member Reese. Here. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Clerk. I will now turn the meeting over to John Allure, Mr. Allure. Please guide us through our next steps. Good morning, Mayor. Mayor Pro Tem Johnson and members of council. Thank you for being here our second day. The FY 22 budget work sessions with council. Today we have a program of. A variety of departments, including police, fire. The proposed new community safety department, transportation, solid waste, parks and rec. And equity and inclusion. And we'll try to move things along with all of these presentations. So you have ample time to pose your questions and get satisfactory answers. I do want to just take a moment before turning things over to. To thank the wonderful people I get to work alongside with in the. Budget management services department. We tend to think of it as a budget, but it is, it is. It is a full department effort. It is a full department effort. And it is a full department effort. Starting with Christina Reardon, Christina Tux, Pat Mota. Tony Thompson and Lindsay Benot. And then over, we have a parallel budget process taking place right now, as you know, in participatory budgeting. And I want to thank the. The staff who worked so hard on that. Andrew Holland and Jamie Tyndall. Along with our wonderful administrative assistant, the staff that worked so hard on that. And I want to thank the staff who worked so hard on that. Don go to PB Durham.org. If you haven't already voted. For the projects of voting, we'll end on June. Six. And then rounding out on the OPI side, Sherry Metcalf performance management, Aaron Parish. Shannon Delaney. And of course, Ryan Smith. And I want to thank the staff who worked so hard on that project. And I want to thank the staff who worked so hard on that project. And focused on this work. And we thank them for their efforts. So thank you for allowing me. The time to say that. And finally, I do want to thank. My boss. My mentor, my friend, Bertha Johnson, who taught me almost everything about budget. Probably taught me everything about management. And she is. It was a little strange going through things yesterday without her. So I just wanted to thank the staff who worked so hard on that project. And I just want to thank the staff who worked so hard on that project. And I feel ready for the challenge. And I thank her for everything that she's done for me. Thank you, John. Those were some great words about the department and really appreciate it. So with that, I turn it over to the city manager. City manager page. If she has any comments before we begin today's programming. Good. Good morning. Good morning. I'm going to turn it over to the city council and city staff and residents who are listening today at this work session. I will not. I will be very brief. John has thanked a big team that has helped us get where we are today. Yesterday and today. So I won't repeat any of that. I will use a few moments that I have because a very first presentation. I want to thank the city council. I want to thank the city council. I want to thank the city council. I want to thank the city council for the great opportunity that I have had. Both publicly and privately. I want to thank chief CJ Davis. For her service to this community and this organization. As one of its executive leaders. As a community leader. A leader of. The largest department that we have in city government. And she has done that well. And she has done that well. And she has done that well. And she has done that well. Because we wish her well. And much success in that new city. And we will miss her greatly. Thank you city manager. Thank you everyone this morning. Am I clear John to begin? Yes. Welcome. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. As I began to. Do this overview of the Durham police departments. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to acknowledge the budget. I'd like to acknowledge the individuals that. Supported us during this budget process. John. Christina. And of course, Bertha and the entire team city manager. Thank you for the support you provided. To the Durham police department during this process. I will begin also introducing individuals in the room. You can't see them, but they are here. My support staff. And I would like to recognize them. I would like to recognize. That council member and the entire team. And I would like to recognize. Sean. We are budget manager. Also deputy chief. Melissa Bishop. And major David Anthony. So to begin. Next slide. Here we go. I'll begin with our. Organization chart, as you can see. This is the Durham police departments or chart. being cut. These reductions include two vacant motorcycle officer positions in district five, which reduces the unit to eight FTEs. The unit will now consist of one Sergeant, one Corporal, six officers, two vacant slide squad officer positions in district five, which reduces the size of each of the two squads to one Sergeant, one Corporal and six officers, one vacant non sworn senior administrative technician. This was our transcriptionist position from professional standards. Um, we are now going to be utilizing an outside transcribing source for this function. These personnel cuts reduce our authorized staffing numbers from 682 FTEs to 677 total FTEs.  Um, those grant positions consist of two sworn investigators, one non sworn cold case victim advocate and one non sworn cold case crime analyst. Okay. Next slide. This resource allocation table illustrates our general fund. The major differences between the proposed fiscal year 21 22 and adopted fiscal year 2021 are as follows. Personal services shows a 1.3% increase this roughly $800,000 increases, a combination of an increase in benefits, mainly healthcare and law enforcement retirement and the reduction of the five FTEs also impacted this figure. The operating line shows a 4.4% decrease. This decreases a combination of an increase in costs for our in car and body worn camera programs as well as the removal of a one time cost associated with equipment for the gang unit, the transfer of non city contract positions to the new CSW department along with various smaller operating cuts. The revenues line consists of record fees, officer court appearances and gold buyers permits, which continue to decline by an estimated 26% annually. We believe the COVID environment has had a major impact in this area as well. Next slide. The next illustration you see here is the grant resource allocation table. The major differences in this chart is a 32.5% decrease in operating and a 77% decrease in capital. These decreases are related to the joint fire police COVID grant received earlier this fiscal year, which covered one time expenses for equipment and training. The capital purchases consisting of larger equipment were for the fire department while the purchases from operating accounts were split between fire and police. There is also an increase in the FTEs by one, which is the cold case crime analyst position for the sake grant. This position has been advertised and interviews are being scheduled as we speak. Next slide. Our budget highlights. We've included three requests. The first is body worn camera cost increase. The city has a five year contract with a V view solutions that will end in fiscal year 22. Axon technologies acquired V view solutions and has transferred all V view customers to axon cameras and cloud storage, which will provide greater reliability and additional capabilities. The only difference is the cost is a little higher. The second is the in car camera cost increase in fiscal year 20 city manager approved a phased in change of the in car cameras from the vendor co ban to axon technologies. This request funds the continuation of that plan and is in line with the budget projections originally submitted. So now both our body worn cameras and in car cameras are now on the same operating platform. And the third is the central square contract cost increase. This request covers increases in annual maintenance fees for the central square one solutions. This is our records management system. RMS is determined that you're used to hearing and mobile applications. Those are the three requests that are in our budget. Our initiatives include the chief search. HR has contracted with developmental associates to conduct a nationwide search for your new chief. The next is a hiring retention. The department will focus on methods to not only hire more officers, but also to retain the officers we have the proposed increase to the police pay structure would certainly be a good start towards retention. Incentives like to take home vehicle program and relocation bonuses will also help with retention and hiring. And then the third is our promotional processes. The upcoming promotional processes for ranks below captain will include revamped study materials to ensure the leadership in the department is on the leading edge of best practices and law enforcement. Training emphasis will be placed on leadership in the 21st century, fair and impartial policing, equity and inclusion and contemporary challenges. And that concludes my budget presentation. Thank you, colleagues. You've heard the chief's report and chief. Thank you so very much. I think this is your last report to us chief. So really gonna miss you. Thank you. But we are gonna take you up on that visit to Memphis with a barbecue in the blues. Okay. Okay. All right, colleagues. I know that we have a lot of discussion that folks want to have around our police staffing and budget. And I'm wondering if we want to hear from our report on community safety department before we do that. I think those are very interlock discussions. And I'll ask Mr. Allure what he thinks about that idea. I think that's a fine idea. We can move right on to that. If you is your choice.  Sure. I think that what I would like to do is, if the chief can stay, is to go ahead and have the community safety department presentation. I don't think chief is all this woman too much, I hope, holding his presentation a little bit. And if we could hear that discussion, I think that that will help us think about the budget, you know, for both of those departments in the most constructive way. Mr. Mayor, before you move on, I just wanted to take a point of privilege and just thank Chief Davis for her work over the last five years. And just acknowledge, I think that with the national context of how things have been operating and how systems have been failing, I'm very glad that you've been here in Durham. And I want to thank you for the work that you've done to get us to where we are today. I know it's been a contentious conversation and you've handled it very well. And I want to say that I wish you the best in Memphis. And if there's any way shape or form that I can be supportive and your transition, please let me know. Thank you, Council Member. It's been a pleasure. It really has. Thank you. All right, thank you. And I believe that we're going to be hearing from Ms. Johnson, who's going to be presenting about the new department. Ms. Johnson, welcome. Thank you. As Mr. Allure said, we're seeing you in a different role today, but a great role. I'm glad to see you. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Bertha Johnson, interim Deputy City Manager. We'll be presenting the proposed Community Safety Department. So where we started in August 2020 at the direction of the former City Manager, Tom Bonfield, City Staff launched the 911 Call for Service initiative. And we sought to answer the question whether community resources align with community needs based on the types of calls for service coming to the 911 Centers. We decided to conduct a new study to analyze 911 call data and develop recommendations for improvement responses by law enforcement. We invited RTI International, a nonprofit research institute to partner with us and other cities in North Carolina and South Carolina to analyze their 911 call for service. And to help us develop recommendations for improving responses from law enforcement. The participating cities are listed here, Durham Raleigh, Cary, Burlington, Greensboro, Winston Salem, and Rock Hills. South Carolina was added because that was where Monica worked at one point in her career. We City Council received the presentation at the January 7 work session, which included recommended pilot projects. Also believe you all received actually the memo in September that explain this project and how we're going to move forward with this work. To implement the pilots and a long term strategy and program, a new department is being proposed in the FY 21-22 budget. I also have here the website that has all of the data that I've mentioned, the report, the presentation, the memos, and any other information that would bring folks to where we are today. So this is the proposed org chart for the community safety department. The staff is organized into two groups. The first being the operations team that will implement the pilots. This team is organized under community responder manager. This team would support the initial small scale response pilots currently in the early development stage. RTI would evaluate the pilots which would provide an as an evidence base for scaling up to larger initiatives. So staff of this team include nurse clinical remote responders, field responders as well as clinical social workers who can respond to behavior and mental health needs identified by 911 dispatchers or officers in the field. The other group will be the support community engagement team which would work on designing doing the research and evaluating the initiatives that the department oversees. This team will be organized under the community safety manager, which is currently funded by fuse corp, which is our fuse fellow. This team will support the development of the alternate response pilots not implementation but the development. They will also support the community safety and wellness task force, develop new partnerships and oversee the existing contracts, including the violence interrupter contract. This staff will include community safety analysts, community center designer, a strategic analyst and a research coordinator. The community center design strategies I want to focus on for a minute. This is a very important position for this department. Community center design is based on the belief that solutions to today's problems come from the power communities and not from the engagement of what we might traditionally consider subject matter experts. It's about designing with the community instead of designing for the community. The other position I want to point out is the research coordinator. This position is funded by Duke, Sanford School of Public Policy, and they will compensate graduate level public policy students to coordinate a larger volunteer research team of local university students, including students from NCCU. So next slide is understanding where the positions are coming from and which ones are new. To reconcile the org chart that you just saw, there will be four new positions for this department. Some you saw on the org chart are designated as contract positions. Three proposed positions currently have existing funding, and eight proposed positions are funded with existing vacant positions from various departments. As listed here, general services, one position, it was a real estate position they offered up. They did not need at this time. Five positions from the police department and two positions from 911. None of these positions or all of these positions were vacant positions. And so we're actually using resources that were not being utilized to stand up this department and pilot our projects. So moving to the resource allocation table, the first line here is personal services that includes the new funding and funding transfer from other departments to support the salaries and benefits. And the operations line 1.4 million, that is all funds transferred from the police office, police department for some of the contractual services and other agreements they have in the department. As I mentioned, one is the Bull City United, another one is the Mental Health Social Worker Contract. So just go back just a second, I want to point out something else here. So one of the things I want to mention is that we have so much additional financial support for this department that is not reflected in this resource allocation table. We have $100,000 from Bloomberg matching grants that we use to establish the IT. We have the funding from Arnav Ventures. They were actually very interested in this project and so they agreed to pay for ongoing technical assistance for our pilots through April 22. And that funding goes directly to RTI. We have, as I mentioned before, the Duke Sanford School of Public Policy will compensate the graduate students. We have the Fuse Fellow, which is funded by Fuse Corp, which the value of that position and training is $180,000. And we also have the 1 million to support the Community Safety and Wellness Task Force. So these are resources that are available to us that you do not see in the resource allocation table. So the budget highlights. Again, the purpose of this department is to enhance public safety through community-centered approaches to prevention and intervention. The Community Safety Department will focus on three areas in its first year. One will be piloting alternate response models, alternative response models to 911 calls, collaborate with community members, including the Community Safety and Wellness Task Force, to identify and test new approaches to public safety. And finally, building, managing and evaluating partnerships that promote a safer Durham. So the first area is piloting response models. The pilots are grouped into two categories, one being increased DPD capacity by right-sizing non-emergency in-person responses. And the second one being professional life short-term and long-term responses to mental health, behavior, health, and familiar faces. So before I describe the pilots on the screen here, which you've all seen, I want to note how many people been engaged in this work. I'm certainly not the subject matter expert, but we've had some of those folks on these teams. We have our RTI team you met in January with Dr. Storm, Dr. Mitchell, and Brian Agart. We have city staff working on this, including the budget office, the OPI office, 911, the city attorney's office, our assistant T.S. director, who is also our chief data officer, the police department, including our CIT clinical social worker, Abena, the fire department, and Durham County's EMS medical director. So this team is also beginning to include more stakeholders as we build out the pilots, including Durham County, and the terminal justice advisory committee. They have already received a presentation on some of this work. So these pilots were informed by insights from many of these people, as well as others in the community. And I also want to remind folks what a pilot is. It is a small scale short term experiment that helps us learn how a large scale project might work in practice, or if it will work in practice. So it's not by this by implementing these pilots, we're not fundamentally changing anything in law enforcement. We're just powering ideas to think about how we scale up those ideas that might work for our community. So on your screen now, you see the pilots. Just as a reminder, when you saw this in January, I believe you saw seven pilots. The pilot that was formerly described as familiar faces hasn't been incorporated into a couple of pilots listed, Delegate Mental Health and Behavioral Health Needs. We realized that these are cross across many pilots and programs, and so we wanted to make sure we capture that. So the first pilot is Remote Response, and this is how do we better utilize Remote Response capabilities to non-emergency calls? The city already has some Remote Response capability. We have P2C, which is an online reporting tool, and we also have a Telephone Response Unit. We know that Remote Response for non- urgent calls can help reduce the possibility of unintended negative consequences that result from in-person responses by armed officers. We also can address concerns related to over-policing by doing more online and telephone responses. We believe that there are many opportunities to better leverage our current remote responses, expand call types that can be appropriate responded to remotely, ensure we have standard operating procedures in place so that we can consistently identify calls for response and ensure this capacity is appropriately staffed. We also need to raise more community awareness and around Remote Response options available through Durham's Police Department. The second one is related to traffic, sending trained civilian responders and local police officers to abandoned vehicles and minor traffic incidents. Currently we know that we need legislative action to advance responses to traffic, but we know also that Fayetteville and Wilmington both have received these exceptions, which allow them to dispatch non-sworn officers to minor traffic incidents. Fayetteville, for example, has approximately 10 non-sworn staff who respond to minor incidents in abandoned vehicles. They have been able to divert 30 percent of their traffic calls to this team. Another area is alarms. How can we reduce the number of false alarms by requiring more compliance from our companies and considering alternate responses? Last year, Durham Police Department responded to over 50,000 residential and commercial alarms. The vast majority of those alarm calls were false. Fewer than 1 percent indicate any actual break-in occurred, and the vast majority of those calls where break-in did occur, an on-scene arrest was not made. So we're researching ways to put the onus on alarm companies to verify calls before dispatching police responders, also considering how to respond to unverified calls, including whether to consider alternative responders other than sworn officers. The next three are related to mental health and really are the ones that are least developed at this point, and you'll see when we talk about the timeline that we have sufficient time to develop these. Improving mental health 911 data, we talked about this in January. The inability for us to really distinguish those calls at the beginning, and so what we want to what we want to improve is how do we identify and track 911 calls involving mental health needs before dispatch, how to identify and track some response to 911 calls by responders in the field, and how to consistently and appropriately apply mental health related codes in both of these moments. So this would involve some kind of simple diagnostic tool. So this work is crucial to us understanding the appropriate response allocations and to enhance our ability to send the appropriate personnel type. Number five is mental health respond remote responders. The plan is to embed nurse practitioners and mental health clinicians into the 911 call center who respond remotely to a subset of non-critical calls and the last one being the mental health in person responders. This is moving more towards a cahoots model where you have prices workers as well as other mental health professionals going out to calls that are required that do not require a armed response. So here's the pilot timeline. I would say that I would not get caught up in the exact dates which we don't have exact dates here anyway but we're looking at these in terms of you know when do we think we can get these pilots underway. So first you see pilot one phase one is implementation of enhanced data collection line on calls with mental health. That work is already underway and this is something that we will need to finish before we focus on the mental health pilots. The phase two in the summer would be implementation of remote responses to subset of non-critical calls. This would include remote response to telephone response unit. How do we use one call P2C which is the online tool and remote swarm response. Just pointing out the difference between P2C which is the online form and remote form response is if a resident wants to report they can report directly online. The remote response swarm response is when a police officer calls a resident for information versus driving to the resident's home or to a place of business. Phase two would be implementation of in-person responses to non-critical calls. This is where we mentioned you know traffic calls abandoned vehicles false alarms that would be a phase obviously that requires a little more work than the first two I mentioned and then finally spring 22 would be implementation of an in-person response to critical calls and obviously this is the one that will require the most work and getting this pilot ready to to start. It is really focused on mental health and again you know it may start off in the it will start off in the pilot phase as a co-response but ultimately if you want to implement something like a hoots it would be totally non-sworn or response to mental health concerns. So that is focus one. Focus two would be community collaboration and so this would be collaborating with community members to identify and test new approaches to public safety. This department will serve as a city's main staffing resource and support for the community safety and wellness task force. Of course this department's first priority and community collaboration will be with the community safety and wellness task force. We believe that it's essential that we work together. We have been very much involved with the task force as they have organized. We've also looked at and as you all know the city council members know that there is a alignment between some of the work that's included in the community safety and wellness task will work and the pilots that we have listed here today. So focus area three would be building, managing and evaluating partnerships that promote a safer Durham. This department will take on oversight and management of the following contracts and interlocal agreements that were previously funded in the Durham police department. Those include the administrative office courts, the joint city county gang reduction strategy and as I've mentioned the clinical social worker in bull city united ballots interrupters contract. So based on the work conducted today the current budget request provides the necessary resources for the department to begin small scale pilots and to support the safety and wellness task force and manage the contract. Additional resources may be identified doing the planning implementation of the pilots and to ensure that we actually come back to city council with any recommendation the needs for funding we are committed to coming back at the end of the second quarter with a report on the status of the pilots as well as the other work and share any resource needs. So that is the end of my presentation and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you very much Ms. Johnson and thank you to Chief Davis. Colleagues I think I like to do it like this. Why don't we start with questions and then we'll follow up with any comments and recommendations that council members might have. If you have questions for Chief Davis or Ms. Johnson let me know. Council Member Freeland. Thank you Mr. Mayor and I just want to echo what Council Member Freeman said Chief Davis you are going to be very much missed and thank you for being here. Thank you for that wonderful presentation both Chief Davis and Ms. Johnson this is really exciting to me and seeing the layout really helps me envision what's possible. I'm particularly excited about the community design strategist made me think about that quote the closest to the pain should be the closest to the power and having you know an intentional strategy in the department that seeks that feedback and input from community is really important to me. I have a question about the I'm thinking I'm looking at the pilot model I'm loving the kind of data driven pilot model and I saw the six pilots that you mentioned I think that's a really good start and and and wondering if scaling that is possible and I'm particularly thinking about I remember when the violence interrupter program was brought before council we kind of had like three options there was like the you know focusing on one area then on one end and then there was a middle option and then there was a max option we went with the max option and what I've seen here feels like a really good start but I'm curious if it's possible to to scale what's here and do more in this space. So if I if I understand your question correctly we these are small-scale pilots and so I would take one as an example that I'm most familiar with. Yes you can do larger scale pilots for example instead of piloting something during a certain time of the day or during a certain time of the week if you had more resources you would pilot that at different times of the day different times of the week for a more accurate data based on the conditions during those times. So yes you can you can scale up pilots but I would not be able to speak to I would not be able to speak to the details particularly around the mental health powers but we could certainly that is something we could certainly think about and and and come back to you on. Yeah thank you Ms. Johnson like was I correct in seeing that there's like one clinical social worker that we're looking to hire and and bring on a staff is that correct? So we have two clinicians one is both of those are contracts so those are contracts one is an existing contract in the police department and one it would be a new contract but it is a contract and so you can use those for more hours if needed or a few hours it's not a person it's a contract. Okay yeah well I guess I'm just my biggest takeaway from the presentation is this is awesome but I know that the that the need there's an urgent need in our community around public safety and if I had a choice between you know one or two contracts for a clinical social worker to be deployed to try to gather information about what pilots work and make sense to potentially scale it if I'd option to one or two of those folks and 10 or 12 of those folks I would like to cast a wide net to meet the need in the community and I'm curious about I'd be curious to see options for considering this on the on the small end of what's possible when we launch this new department the those are kind of my thoughts thank you Mr. Mayor and I would just also as a reminder the last pilot is not scheduled to start until the spring so we will be coming back to you before then with any resource additional resource needs as we continue to design those pilots got it okay I have more questions but I know some of my colleagues want to want to jump in go ahead go ahead council member this if you're if you have more please do okay cool um this this question is for Chief Davis um I was curious about uh I know you're there were I think five positions that are coming from the police department to help staff the new community safety and wellness department um I'm curious could you talk a little bit about those five positions and what that means for the police department to to you know let go of those so um our department like the other department since the government were asked to look where we could potentially make reductions to help support not just this initiative but just as a as a budget um sort of ask and we look very carefully at where we could afford to lose you know officers um that you know not saying that the work isn't needed but um we took a careful look at the position that's in professional standards instead of filling that position we saw where we could have a sort of electronic service for transcribing and um that was a spot that that was sort of a low hanging fruit uh we had two vacant um motorcycle officer positions while those officers have regular patrol duties they do a lot of escorts as well and not saying that escorts aren't important but we saw where we could manage with the six and maybe not take on as many escorts uh as we have in the past so um and then we had two additional vacancies and of course you know we have vacancies in the police department anyway and as um as we aggressively try to fill our vacancies trying to recover from last year we know that it'll be some time next year before we fill them all you know um with anticipating you know classes coming up so we looked at areas where it would have the least impact on the department um to to help support that initiative thank you um and how many vacancies currently exist today in the police department unfilled it's approximately hold on man i have that right here so um today we have 79 vacancies 79 wow yes okay okay um thank you mr mayor those are my questions thank you thank you very much councilmember other colleagues questions for chief davis or miss johnson at this point councilmember middleton thank you mr mayor and colleagues good to see you all fellow thundercats and everybody watching uh chief davis good to see i want to echo comments of um my colleagues uh lauding you and you'll get plenty of it i'm sure in the waning days and even as you move i do want to say for the record um chief davis you're part of a cadre of law enforcement leaders around the country that are not bucking or pushing back at the notion of rethinking policing but are actually cooperating the chiefs like you and chief aridondo there's there's a handful that we can identify around the country that are part of that cadre and i want to thank you uh for being a conversation partner and what is so needed in our country uh there's some of you but there's not a lot of you and during take he uh mess around and find out if you want to um there are not a whole lot of chiefs in the country that are on the market that are as amenable and open the type of conversations we're having in this city um we'll find that out so i so as we as we approach this this process and as we uh uh go on and we're going to be all right we got a great city manager we got an incredible teams going to get us a good police chief but i i i want to say very seriously that we need to keep in context what uh in context and then clearly what we had in chief davis and and those type of cheese around the country uh come at a premium so thank you man for your service and i told my friend to memphis already that uh you act up if you want to we'll snatch your right back um so i want to i want to thank the city manager uh in your team for taking what is it clearly palpable and live issue and putting flesh on these bones and you've done it magnificently and i think we should trust our manager our newly minted a newly hired city manager that still has the new city manager smell in her office and on her i think we should trust her uh to guide this process one of the things you know when i when i buy a plane ticket um i choose the destination i want to go to i buy the ticket and i sit on the plane and i i get to my destination i don't i don't knock on the door and you know off of the pilot my take on approach vectors uh for landing i just sit down and and i choose where i want to go and uh let the professional pilot we've got some great professional pilots got in this craft i want to say about this department i'm excited about the work i think it's necessary work um but i do want to offer a caveat about the the the the excitement and the celebration of the department um no i'm a local guy i'm not a member of congress i'm not aspiring congress i'm i'm just a local politician so everything that i do everything that i uh take into consideration when it comes to Durham is my question is what is the Durham fix what is Durham's need what is it being addressed in Durham um so when i look at this department and i think about Durham and Durham's participation in this national discussion and whatever the national discussion is there's always got to be a Durham horolary you know when we talk about ubi i know it's like a national thing but the question is how does it fit Durham what what Durham population should be served um violence interruption is a national thing but the question is what does it look like for Durham uh because i'm a local guy so so this this department for me you know one of the questions i ask is you know what is the local fix for Durham even as we participate in the national conversation what's this doing for Durham and you know and and alas we're finally going to address the inordinate number of people that have been murdered by the Durham police department over the years on our people finally we're going to address the inordinate number of people that had mental health issues that have been gunned down by the Durham police department glad we're finally addressing that um and if you think i'm being cheeky if you say one is too many i agree with you and whatever that number is that the Durham police department has a that threshold has been crossed if that number however high or low you think it is warrants a whole new department and a whole reimagining of our org chart whatever the number is in Durham how much more so should gunfire and people getting shot in our city warrant this type of dramatic nuance multifaceted response the question for me is as important as this net and listen i i i called for unarmed responders last year so every substantive part of this department you're not going to find utterances of me on the record against it i support everything this department is doing but what are we trying to fix in Durham what what is the Durham iteration of this problem and however many people our police department have brutalized that were however many people our police department have shot however many national headlines Durham has made the last five or ten years because our police department emptied a magazine and somebody put their hands up whatever that number is if this is the response that's appropriate for it for the Durham number where's the equal response for gunfire in our city because respectfully whatever the research has been whatever control groups whatever amount of penetration folk have done is to arrive that this is what we need to be doing in the circles i hang in i promise you when the question is asked and it's just an essay question not a fill in the blank question no one has ever said to me you don't count them in what we need it are unarmed folks coming out here to deal with this gunfire not one that's not to say that this isn't important because it is and Durham can lead in a national conversation but as we celebrate this new undertaking this new initiative one of the questions i and it's brilliant and our staff has taken what we asked for and they've done a brilliant job and we should be able to tell our friends to accept yes as an answer we're going to have unarmed responders in Durham we have a whole new department brilliant let's take yes for an answer and let's let the professionals now fly this aircraft when i look at the department one of my questions and you can take it rhetorically you can answer it of chief or staff are any of these 15 people going to respond when somebody here's gunfire are any of and if not that's the headline in Durham so even as we build capacity even as we add to and i listen we need to have a robust response a menu of responses as a government we need to be able to keep black and brown and mentally mentally a challenged people alive we can do that and we also need to respond if the proud boys want to storm the city center i want both i want the ability to do both because here's what i know when you talk to people who are not part of the professional organizing class who are not in city hall who don't have mailing lists who don't do phone making you ask them what their issue is and what their problems are we know what the list is we know what the litany of things is that people live rattle off in Durham so as we celebrate this department i just want to put out there to and contextualize it that there's still a whole group of folks who literally don't understand what this is about and that doesn't mean it's not that it's not important there's a whole group of folk in our city that are still training their children to jump in bathtub not because a mentally ill person's banging on their door but because an ak-47 is being fired because of nine millimeters being fired outside their door and until we look at this not as a zero-sum game i reject zero-sum game politics where success on one end has to mean you know loss on another i reject that this is Durham we're the fourth most educated city in america whatever we've done we're doing in this department i think we have to also hold it in tension with what we've done in other areas i think that and i'm not talking about chief davis personally but chiefs chiefs of chief davis is ill of that mindset have been great partners in helping us get to where we need we spend too much money on police but but but we also understand that for folks watching this debate on the outside watching us who who may not be initiating total nuances of the conversation when they see us do this in this area and they ask me you know has the Durham police department shooting people like that real question is the Durham police is Durham getting attention for killing folk when they ask me questions like that and when they ask me questions like so y'all got a whole new department for this and putting money in it but you can't try ShotSpotter to save my baby for free real question you're talking about wasn't ShotSpotter supposed to be a pilot wasn't that supposed to be an experiment and i said well you know we're deliberative i go through myself we're a deliberative body you know we talk but i said well which one of those folks are going to come when my baby's in the bathtub in the new department real question so even as we celebrate this even as we fed it and we lauded and we fund it and we should let us be muted in our celebration and be mindful that at the end of the day none of these people in this department are going to respond when gunfire that will go off tonight in our city that will be unreported you know we're looking at an 911 department and we're getting data points from a 911 department that itself is being understaffed I have to ask are some of our data points being affected by the staffing issues in the 911 department would our data look different if we got a fully staffed a 911 department so I want to congratulate manager pay and Bertha and the entire team and those of us in our public square that have pushed Durham to lead and to take up an important part in this national conversation but at the end of the day we work for Durham and we work in Durham and the question is because I'm not interested in just being on somebody's national honor roll I have no I don't care about accolades or any national group I want to know because I'm a local guy I'm accountable to people of Durham what is the Durham fix and what does it look like for Durham unfortunately we have a team of experts of pilots who have taken the queue have taken up the call and I think are doing it in a responsible safe effective way guiding us into this conversation tailoring it and contouring it for Durham and I think we should just let the plane be flown because we've chosen the destination that's our job we've chosen the destination and now our staff is doing it and I want to thank them for it and I just want to remind us that when we pass this new department gunfire will still be going off in our city every night and children will still be jumping in bathtubs what new department will we propose for that thank you Mr. Mayor thank you council member other colleagues anyone else questions or comments for Chief Davis or Miss Johnson Mayor Pro Tem thank you Mr. Mayor this is a great presentation I want to thank you Bertha and Chief Davis for this work and I'm really excited about putting some real specifics on the community safety department and the pilots that y'all are proposing the couple of pilots that we are planning for the next year seem really well thought out I like being able to see the timeline so that we can communicate clearly with community members about when to expect different pieces and yeah I mean I think this is it's really innovative work and I'm really glad that Durham is a leader in this area and that we're going to be able to we're going to be able to really do do these projects in a way that feels significant I share council member Freelon's questions around scale I feel like there there are some opportunities here to to scale up some of these pilots initially I think there are some I think there are some opportunities to do a little bit more and I don't want you know I don't I don't want us to bite off more than we can chew you know I think it is good to start small and then and then scale up from there but there has been we have done a lot of research we have a lot of data I think we have a lot of good knowledge already about the kinds of calls that we're getting that these unarmed responders could handle and so I I would also like to see a little bit more a little bit more introductory pilot like a little bit broader scale for for what we're moving forward I think what we have is great but I think that I think that we could do we could do more with more with more resources the the question of you know how to resource the department I also think is really important right like we are for me the goal of this there are multiple goals of this work but one of the key pieces is moving some of the work that our police department is doing into unarmed response for a couple of reasons you know wanting to invest more on the prevention and the intervention side than the enforcement side more generally but also because we're taking work away from what police are being asked to do like if we're able to divert a significant number of our traffic calls like you said they've diverted 30% in Fayetteville which is fabulous I hadn't heard that before that we're actually that we have we need fewer resources in the police department because we are moving those moving those duties along with those resources over to over to unarmed response I think that it's important to resource the department initially I'm much less concerned that we give these folks too much and that we give them too little and with any sort of like new and innovative program I think we I want us to set it up for success I want the resources that staff need to be there when they need them and I want to make sure that we are providing those resources initially so that we can draw on them and we can scale up the pilots without a whole without a whole lot of extra extra work I appreciated Bertha hearing about all the other resources that are in the department that aren't listed in that aren't listed in that in the in the budget document and it's really great to see all the community folks who are coming together and who are excited about this work the folks from Duke the Fuse Fellows like this feels like it feels like a community effort which is really which is really great but I know that we are going to need more resources in the department and I believe that those resources should come from the police department because that's the that is the work that we are moving is the work of police we have a lot of vacancies in the police department and we've talked about that a lot I understand that you know the and from talking to Wanda that the that moving all of the vacancies to community safety wouldn't be reasonable that we need to fill some of those vacancies and try to get more get more folks into the department but I think that it would be reasonable to at least earmark some positions in police department for a future transfer and not in this fiscal year so not in the far future but to plan to transfer additional additional positions in this fiscal year and to at least make sure if we don't move them at the beginning of the year if we wait to see what the department comes back within a couple of months about what resources they need to at least make sure that those positions are going to be filled in the police department so that we don't have so we don't have a situation where we're scrambling for resources mid-year where we know that there will be you know we know that there will be some resources available that we can easily transfer at that point I personally I think it makes sense to just move them over into community safety because I know that that's that's where I want those people hired I want I would you know I want to hire more people in community safety but I understand that that waiting to see exactly what the staff tell us that they need is also a reasonable that's a reasonable approach to how we how we move forward toward staffing the department but I would at least like to you know I don't want to fill all 70 something of those vacancies with police officers I want us to make sure that we have that we have positions in the police department reserved for community safety for the you know for to move later later in the fiscal year I think that the asset we've gotten from community of moving you know at the time I think that the 60 officers was proposed because it was a 10% approximately 10% of the police department and in conversations with City Manager Page and with my colleagues you know I feel like that I feel like that 10% number is it's a good start like it feels like a good down payment on what we need to do I'm hoping that the community safety department will be able to handle more than 10% of what our police are doing in the future but I think that moving that having an initial goal of moving that 10% and my suggestion was that we do that over the next three fiscal years is a good down payment on on that work having a community safety department that's about 10% the size of the police department and can take on a significant could take over a significant amount of their work in three years feels like that feels like a real success to me like if we had if we had that level of resources in alternative response I think we would be I think we would be doing something really significant and visionary and that would it would make a huge difference I think we should plan for that's what our goal should be and I look forward to hearing my colleagues thoughts thanks thank you Mayor Pro Tem other colleagues questions or comments councilmember Middleton Mr. Mayor I think I saw the councilmember Freeman's that pangol if I'll yield if that's okay I've already spoken sure councilmember Freeman did you have your hand up yes thank you I I can appreciate the councilmember freelance and Mayor Pro Tem Johnson's questions and thoughts and I want to thank Ms. Bertha Johnson and Chief Davis for the presentation I'm mindful that that this is a critical juncture point and I really am I'm really open to the conversation but I'm not open to just doing what one person thinks and I'm mindful that there are a lot of folks in this community who don't necessarily understand and I know that the conversation should be happening more broadly and I'm looking forward to that happening over the next few months or years or what have you I'm grateful that the staff is being innovative in this work and I know that they're they're their work and especially with the the leadership of Madam Page I'm mindful that this is not this is not about a win this is about you know what makes us safe and I'm very concerned about how we get there I'm very concerned about the the ways in which we use our our platforms to kind of push us there as opposed to working with one another to get there and so just noting like I'm very I'm very aware of of of just how much gun violence you know is is involved in our community I'm very aware of of of issues around domestic violence rape child abuse all of those things and I'm also mindful that police brutality has to stop like seriously I'm I'm not quite clear on why I guess why the the pilot wouldn't be where we start and then we see where we could go so I'm I'm definitely trying to understand and other than making a point of making a down payment on a promise you made what would be the purpose of adding I could hear the one more you know the one more social worker it would need to be hear me when I say this the dollars be spent on government services should be very intentional and if we're going to talk about 60 over three years or even an additional five those need to be really specific because you're turning one system off you're not just I mean you're not just you're not just just setting a pilot you're actually trying to say that in three years this is what's going to happen and if it isn't successful what does that look like and who's harmed by that because I know that more often than not the people who are who are challenged in this criminal legal system and the police brutality look like my children they look like my sons specifically and I'm really more I'm really more vested in how to be successful and effective than it how it looks and so I'm mindful that I you know I don't speak in in prose and I don't speak in very you know like punts and or pundits like I'm really like this is about my neighbors and my very neighbor who has apparently been shot three different by three different guns she had three different bullets removed from her body something is is seriously wrong here and I really think that the community health and safety department is the direction we should go but I think we should be going with our neighbors I think we should be going with the folks who are who are directly impacted and I mean I hear that I'm mindful that this is the fourth most educated you know city in in the United States and I know that we should be ingenuitive enough to come up with a solution it does not mean that you just make demands and that is it so I just want to make sure that we're taking the right steps to figure out what the solution should look like and how they operate thank you bye Cal's member Caballero good morning everyone also thank you for my excused absence yesterday I was able to travel and actually see my mom after 18 months so that was a glorious thing to be able to do I'll just say that the video of your entrance into your mom's house was one of the most fabulous videos I've seen in a long time I can I can send it to other colleagues but she told me I was not allowed to put it on social media because it was mostly just her sobbing for 20 minutes yes it was lovely so good morning I just wanted to share my thoughts because I've had some pretty in-depth conversations with manager Page I thought about this issue a lot and I think for me that was and I said this with when we got our 911 data it was really illuminating for me to see where these 911 calls are coming from and I said it then that there was so two things I think that I want the ability to be able as we see the pilot information coming through I want to thank staff I think it's a great plan it's super intentional it's exactly the direction that I think not just counsel but many in our community have indicated they want to see our community move towards which is a different approach to safety in general it's a more holistic it's a more compassionate view of our own humanity right it's instead of a punitive response it's really looking to figure out how do we stop punishing people and how do we actually help people solve the problems in their lives and have a more dignified quality of life that is my fundamental basis for all of this and I think that there's two things I want to always be and I said this to the folks who are the activists and I said this to the I said it's city staff I want to be methodical and I want to be intentional and so I think this this plan in front of us does both I also want the option when we hear the information to be able to move those positions out of police and be nimble because that is the department that it makes sense for me for it to move from I also know that when we move things like traffic response and some of these other you know mental health parts of the job that I think you know my guess is most police officers did not sign up to do the work we we heard that that they feel overwhelmed at the type of response that they you know the types of calls that they're getting that they don't necessarily feel equipped and it's not necessarily why they went to the job what I do know is that I want more police officers doing the response you know the rape kits and things like that and so when we take something off their plate and put it in a different department it lets our police officers actually focus on the core work that we need them to do which is to solve and investigate for violent crime so to me it's a win-win because we're allowing our police officers to do their core work because they're not responding to parts of the job that they didn't sign up for and is not necessarily it's it's not a good fit it's not an alignment it's like when we ask educators to be you know nurses and counselors that's not what their job is their job is to educate children and so I want to be really clear and what my intent is and what my position is which is that I know that if we clear some of these other this other work from our police officers we are going to get a better response we are going to have police officers who are ready to solve the violent crime in our community and we're going to get better outcomes on the violence that we're seeing now that so many of us are afraid of councilmember Middleton you're right that the gun crime in the city is really intense when we first moved to Durham we heard shots around my house pretty frequently and then it kind of went away and this year especially we've heard things very close to our house we've seen gunfire coming off our street my kids have seen the lights so I get it I understand that we are in a very violent moment in our city but I don't think we can continue on the path that we've done before because the path the work that we've done before has failed because we're still signaling the gun violence so we have to look for a different future and so I appreciate what staff has done I also want to be able to reallocate positions if that's what pilots indicate in the middle of the year and not wait until next year how that happens I will trust staff but I just want to share with my colleagues in the community that if in a you know first quarter second quarter it's clear that we have some good you know we have we've run our pilots there's some good information I want to be able to move those positions out of the police department and staff what we need to staff and community in the new community safety and laws department thank you very much council member other colleagues I see I think I see both council member recent council member Middleton but I think I'll go with council member recent sir I'll yield sir let him yeah thank you yeah thanks for not making making me follow him it's always a bad plan friends although it's hard enough to go after council member Calviero especially when she's talking about how great it was to visit her mom I had that experience a couple weeks ago I didn't have good video like that but I had good experiences so I hope we can all have those experiences soon I'm just so grateful to be on a on a body on in a board with folks like like all of y'all we don't all agree on everything we don't all agree on how to get to where we're trying to go but we all want to be in the same place in a city that is safer where folks feel free to call for help when they need it one of the things that I've figured out as a part of this process over the last couple years is something that I just wasn't aware of not too long ago and that is that there are tons of folks in our community who aren't comfortable calling 911 when they experience a mental health emergency I didn't know that because I am safely ensconced in layers of wealth and privilege that shield me from having to worry about that if I had a mental health crisis in my house I would call 911 and I would be safe and secure in the knowledge that I would be treated with respect and dignity by whoever showed up that should be the experience of every member every resident of this city and for far too many of our residents it's not they just don't feel that safe doing it and this experience has taught me that and so if nothing else has it been accomplished I learned something and so I think that's pretty cool but that's not the only thing we're doing we have all made a commitment together all seven of us to advance this work in this way to make sure that we develop unarmed responses to the types of things that our police officers don't need to be doing and probably aren't that interested in doing I'm stunned when I hear folks talk to me in the community about seeing police officers with big brooms sweeping off debris from car crashes on our streets there's no reason for a police officer to be doing that they should be ready out in the community talking to folks about their safety needs and investigating crimes and responding to urgent 911 calls not on the not taking notes about who bumped into whose bumper not filling out reports that insurance companies require certainly not sweeping the streets after these accidents to clear debris those are things that other folks can do and as we as we create capacity in city government in this new department to do some of those things to respond to mental health crises in a way that does not engender the concern that many of our community members face when we create capacity to let officers not have to do some of the bookkeeping some of the sweeping that I've seen them and that I've heard folks telling me about after automobile crashes and in lots of other ways big and small we reduce the number of calls the sheer number of calls that police officers respond to and when I talk to folks about it that seems to be a huge problem the sheer number of calls that our officers respond to going from call to call to the extent that we can shave some of those off for them and put those calls into areas that don't require an armed response that seems to me the exactly the kind of low hanging fruit that local government is is charged with doing now some of this stuff we can do soon some of this is going to require a legislative response the good news is we've got precedent for it and I hope that our our city and other communities around the state are considering these types of changes can get these kinds of local bills or maybe even a statewide law that allows communities to be very intentional about doing this kind of thing that's work we're going to have to work with our legislative delegation and I know Commissioner Wallace will be helping us move towards that that type of legislative action but in the meantime I'm so excited about the work of this this group this particular department want to thank our staff for moving us in that direction and for being prepared to stand up this department on staffing levels I think we've got some work to do as a group to figure out how we want to go forward my own view as I've said publicly and privately to some folks is that I think a 15 person head count on day one for this department is looks like the right number to me I think the order chart shows that we've got some capacity to do a number of small scale pilots very soon that we've got the staff we need to manage the development of new pilots the maintenance the maintenance of existing relationships like the violence interrupter program and others that we've got I think 15 is probably a good place to start but I truly believe in my heart of hearts that if we end this fiscal year with the department having a head count of 15 we will have failed to meet in this moment and I just truly believe that we need to figure out some way to get more resources into this department at mid-year and I look to my colleagues and our staff to figure out the right way to do that but if we end the upcoming fiscal year and we haven't added more staff to this department I just don't know that we're setting ourselves up for success and I respect the fact that the proposal from staff about the department recognizes that likelihood but I also respect the views that I've heard from my colleagues about the need to be concrete and our commitment to this work and so I'm open to hearing from my colleagues about that but I think fundamentally this is I think I think Councilor Middleton is right to call our attention to what we're actually trying to accomplish here I think it's right that we create this unarmed response for mental health crises because I know there are folks in our community that would call 911 about about a mental health emergency if they knew that there was something else that could happen aside from armed police officers showing up I know that our officers are doing work in relation to car crashes around the city that they don't need to be doing but I also and I also know that if we give that work to other folks to who are not armed that will free up our officers to respond to the calls they really need to be responding to and respond without having been overwhelmed by pushing a broom on our street beforehand that they can really focus their energy on what matters that I think is what local government is about is making sure that we put the right people in the right position to make our community better and keep us safe I think that's what this department will do I'm ecstatic about the work but I understand that we've got lots of other problems too that we also need to put energy into appreciate that call to action and look forward to a conversation about how we can the mechanisms we need to use as a group to make sure that those resources get in the department the last thing I want to say about it and I appreciate your patience with me talking through this is that our budgets need to reflect what we think is actually going to happen I think it's I appreciate staff's recognition that sometime in the middle of the year we're going to have to have another conversation about this department but I also know that we have in the past set up mid-year adjustments when we pass the budget initially you know whether it's whether it's been mid-year pay adjustments that we knew we were going to have to do we set aside the money for you and we did it or lots of other times that we have talked about what we're going to do mid-year I think we can figure out some way to do that now that that makes that gives the department a little bit more runway and it's certainly possible that the department will need more and that's the but and they can kind of talk to us about that but I think adding additional resources triggering those in the current budget but having them not be available until mid-year is something we should seriously think about but as I said we'll probably have seven different opinions about how to handle that I trust this group and our staff to guide us to our consensus I think that's what I wanted to say thank you Mr. Mayor thank you very much colleagues before we do another round here let me just part of my job is to try to figure out a way for us to shape this discussion and move it to some conclusion as well as to remind us that we have a big agenda this morning but this is a super important topic and there's been so much discussion about it among ourselves over the months in our community and so I want to try to figure out a way to give our staff some guidance and to move us ahead I don't want to give everybody else a chance to address this issue this morning I will just say to you that the longer we address this issue the shorter I'm expecting you all to be talking on the other items today because we do have deadline and I will be counting on you for that okay so as I say I know that we have lots of opinions on this we need to give our staff some guidance so I'm going to suggest that if there's someone who has a motion that they would like to put forward that we could at least begin talking about and then we can have another round of discussion if there is no motion I think the best thing to do at this point would be to hear any final comments from people and then we can take this up at a later time I am mindful of the fact that helping our staff get direction is important Councilmember Middleton thank you Mr. Mayor well to speak directly to your to your query or direction I think the staff has done exactly what we've asked them to do already and I'm fully prepared to affirm what the staff has done I think they've been responsive and I think they've been on point and I want to share Councilmember Reese's accolades and feelings about this board I feel really grateful and privileged to be part of this this deliberative body and I think we're having an important discussion you know leadership is Latin for sometimes you have to piss your friends off roughly translated roughly translated and I why can't we just tell our friends that you should take yes for an answer I um and you know respectfully I don't I have no idea where the 60 that 60 number 20 per year comes from I don't I have no idea about the calculus I haven't seen the science I haven't seen the research it seems arbitrary and here's the danger we're running we've done a good thing here but I think the danger we're running is is to appear that we're trying to win something beyond the sacred and important goal and I think those optics are they gnaw at our credibility they gnaw at the gravitas of this body listen I don't know where that 20 comes from and and we've gotten pretty granular in this conversation you know about what police do at the street listen I've done ride-alongs where I thought it looked like it was a routine traffic accident and it turns out that would happen the reason why the car got into an accident is because there was a domestic violence dispute or or the person was criminally intoxicated so the moment in between there's an accident that might look routine by the time you get to sweeping up the debris you have no idea what's going on in that car I have no place getting that granular or getting that deeper level of discussion about policing I don't think any of us on this board do actually that's why we have a Wanda page that's why we have a Seryl and Dave that's why we have a professional staff that we create the vision articulate the values for and let them do their work and I think we're running the risk of appearing of serving a master other than the people of Durham absent the display of what that 20 people and by the way Fayetteville Fayetteville and I've talked to my friends in Fayetteville they're not drawing down the size of their tools it's a police department they're adding capacity they're adding tools to their toolbox so what they're doing is creating an ecosystem whereby they can respond with non sworn officers Fayetteville's got a gun problem too the gun problem isn't going away because we have mental health responders what they're trying to do is to to increase their capacity to respond to those other things not diminish it because we've moved something from one part of the org chart to another part of the org chart and absent respectfully absent the calculus absent the science absent the the the the underlying research that that buttresses and undergird that number 20 60 officers it appears as though we're we're we're you know we're genuinely reflecting at an altar outside of Durham and respectfully the city of Durham and the municipal workforce of Durham is not window dressing and it's not a prop for any program or any campaign for self-aggrandizement or to get accolades from some people outside of Durham what is the Durham Taylor response why where's that number come from who came up with it where are the experts that we should base that our decision on that as opposed to want the page in our team I will not outsource the protection of 300,000 people I will not outsource the governance of an entire city to two organizations I'm not I have no parts of it and I think we should tell our friends to accept yes as an answer we've won we got a whole department and as bureaucracies go if this department follows the path that bureaucracies usually follow it's going to get bigger organically it's going to because that's what happens at bureaucracies departments grow every one of our departments almost across our oil chart have positions that are empty so police department positions aren't empty because we've finished the police department positions aren't empty because oh we don't need them they're empty because there's a moral issue they're empty because we don't have we're not competitive in pay there are people retiring think about pouring water into a bucket with a hole at the bottom of it those numbers don't represent expansion they represent stabilizing trying to hold on to where we are and until we explain respectfully how this department is somehow because we've if we've been doing the same thing we're at relative to gun violence so this is our this is department that after it's running for a couple of years we can expect to see gun violence go down is this our answer to the people of Durham so respectfully without the science behind those numbers I'm going to trust Wanda Pay and I'm going to trust our staff who have delivered what we've asked they have done precisely what we've asked we've won this department is now going to be codified it's going to be a staff it's going to get more money more money as the years go on and we still aren't trying to spot it so so so we're doing what they've asked I think we should trust the pilots to fly this plane because we've already told it where to go and it's going there I'm very proud of the work so my recommendation is to do what the staff has asked us has proposed to us in response to what we've asked them to do if we're going to start putting computing proposals to what our staff has done bring the science that I haven't seen it I've just seen arbitrary numbers based upon dogma and ideological entrenchment like I've never seen before and I work at a church mind you I trust my staff thank you Mr. Mayor thank you council member council member Freelon thank you Mr. Mayor and thank you colleagues I have an idea for a motion that I just wanted to I'm not making a motion it's an idea for a motion specifically in response to your question for that so I'm thinking about a motion to direct staff to ask them to put three options this is the longest motion ever three options together similar to the violence interrupter I mean I'm you know I'm trying to work from the precedent that I know in my short time on council I enjoyed being able to look at you know here's what it looks like to go in one geographic region with X amount of folks here's what it looks like to double that and there was a discussion around that and disagreement we reached a consensus to take the max option but I would be curious to see to bring it back to staff to ask Wanda and her team to look at what scaling the department might entail with what was presented today as the smallest option with two more at least to consider for us to look at taking into consideration some of what my colleagues Johnson and Rhys have said about giving us the capacity to scale after we see what some of the numbers in the data reveal you know after our first or second quarterly report I don't know yeah what that looks like but that's kind of where my head's at in terms of emotion thank you that wasn't the longest motion ever made a lot longer motions than that myself Mr. Mayor Council Member Freeman I would not like to waste staff time and acknowledging that I think we're at a junction where folks are on board with the option that staff has already presented I would like to amend to offer a friendly amendment to that motion and just note that we either go with that option or the option to add the mid-year adjustment I think as Council Member Rhys mentioned because I think that's really just the difference thank you I'm going to just say we're still discussing here yeah but thank you colleagues other thoughts Council Member Middleton I would put into consideration a motion to do what the staff has already asked us which would have been regular order we just go ahead and improve the budget within it so my motion is to honor what we've asked the staff to do and what they've done thank you Mr. Mayor thank you Council Member I've heard three different people speak I've heard three different things I would second that motion if I needed a second okay then we'll Council Member Middleton do you have a motion that you'd like to make I move that we affirm the recommendation the staff has brought before us regarding the new safety community safety task force sorry department pardon Department of Public Safety first of all is there a second to that motion Council Member Caballero yeah I'm confused as to what would this I mean we have a public hearing on the 7th I'm just curious about process around around this motion well a lot of times we have discussion about items ahead of time that we want to give staff direction on so for example do we want to have a a green and equitable infrastructure program that we direct staff to implement and then we'll take a vote or do we want to raise taxes for the housing bond and so I think this would be just an affirmation of the whatever we decide today would be an affirmation of what the council wants to direct staff to do okay thank you for that is that helpful yeah yeah so nothing's you know the burden of the budget isn't really until we vote on the budget but what we're trying to do is to try to give staff some direction sometimes we can do that with a head nod I don't think today we could probably do that with a head nod so that's why I'm trying to move in this direction is that okay yeah councilmember freeland I have a question so hypothetically if I were to vote nay on this and then we did another motion I guess well I don't really know my question actually yeah so if there was a if there was a vote if you were to vote nay on this this motion failed that we failed yeah what would that mean that's my question that makes sense yeah councilmember reese I think unless we can get a majority unless we can get four votes for some motion today it seems to me that the current budget proposal is what's before us and so I think that's that's kind of where we are which suggests I'm not sure but anyway that's I think that's the that's the answer to that specific question if this motion fails and if any subsequent motions about this particular issue and on resourcing for this department also fail then the the item that will be before us when we vote on the budget is the current proposal what the staff is recommended I agree councilmember middleton thank you yeah everything council reese just said is true it was true before you asked for a motion Mr. Mayor so so that's true and if there's no that's why we take votes to see whether or not a majority will agree with it but I think there are really two issues that they're they're clearly some of our colleagues want to make a commitment and honor a commitment to take 60 positions or 20 a year then it should do that you should just stand up and go on record and say that's what we're going to do or the other choice is to do what the staff has worked before us I think that's really the issue that the dripping drab and the kind of incremental kind of around the edge approach just say it just just just you know tell the people of Durham that we want to take 20 folks per year and commit it to a community of your safety department or let's honor the work of the staff the hard work that they've done the universal work of view that they take out my my imagination is that my assumption is that when the manager makes a proposal she's not just looking at one small pipe piece she's looking at the entire city the health of the organization population growth cash flow all kinds of other things that inform her decision and recommendation I'm comfortable with going with that that's the choice the other choice is to do whatever commitments have been made in other contexts that's the other choice and that's what the motion should be we've already said the staff has already committed to come to us mid-year with further discussion so there's a breaker an on-ramp already built in for us to take another look at this built organically into the process so the so everything we've asked for has been given to us but if if if we have another goal then we should say that lead to stand up and say it or let's do what the staff has worked before us and then have the conversation mid-year that would be my recommendation that seems to me clearly what's going on Mr. Mayor and that would be my recommendation thank you all right colleagues any other thoughts I'll call the question any other thoughts colleagues yeah council member Reese yeah I I I really appreciate this conversation I'm happy to proceed to the motion but I just wanted to make it clear that I have a ton of respect for the work that staff has done so I have so much respect for the for the way that this department is set up that I want to make sure that they're set up to succeed I'm not I don't know that I've ever tried to hide what I think I want to do and why I want to do it I I spoke at length about all those things not too long ago and I'm I'm sad to have to say that I meant what I said but there it is I meant what I said I will be voting no on this motion not because I don't respect and appreciate and lift up the work of staff but because I want to make sure they have the resources during this fiscal year to succeed as I said from the very beginning I think 15 is the right head count on day one for this department but if we get to day 365 the next fiscal year and the head count is still 15 we will have failed and I believe our budget should reflect well at least my vote on the budget will reflect that that is my opinion so that's what I plan to do thank you Mr. Mayor thank you council member council member Caballero I just wanted to uplift what council member Reese said because that's exactly where I'm at thank you council member all right colleagues any more comments I'll just make a brief comment I am definitely in favor of this motion and I'm definitely in favor of it because it it does contain the staff's plan does contain the the fact that the staff will be bringing back to us in six months the recommendations that they need for more staffing and I fully anticipate that they will bring back their recommendation for more staffing and at that time I think it would be very important that the council support that I fully anticipate but I also believe in their expertise and that their recommendations I think will be will really strengthen with the community everything that we want to do I deeply believe that we are moving in the right direction and that we have a tremendous opportunity here to bring the community gather around the need for alternatives to the traditional policing that we have now and that the traditional responses that we have now are we've done a lot of work to get to this place our staff has done a fantastic job of putting together this recommendation and I really I feel like this is an issue on which our community is really polarized and I don't think that's necessary I think that saying to people now we're going to take a certain number of police officers out of the police department with nothing specific for them to be doing in this new department I feel like that's a way for to really undercut community confidence of what we're trying to do I really believe that if on the other hand our staff comes to us in mid-year and says you know we need certain number of people to do this we're recommending you know our pilot has shown us that we can have a certain kind of mental health response that will be a confidence builder for our community something that I think that everyone will be able to get behind so that's the way I think is the wisest way to move all right any final comments council member Middleton thank you Mr. Brown I want to fully associate myself with your comments and say I meant what I said I believe that the staff has presented a department that is set up to succeed that's what they do all they do is win win win our staff consistently brings us proposals and plans that are set up to succeed their program that way it's in their DNA so I meant what I said I believe that our staff has taken the universal comprehensive view of a health of this organization insulated from politics insulated from ideology and have brought us back the most robust appropriate recommendation that this world-class staff could bring so with all due respect I'm not suggesting anybody saying what you know something that they don't mean when it's on the record it's on the record but we've heard recommendations bandied about that exceed what the staff has asked for we've heard numbers bandied about 2060 so it's in the record so I'm responding to that but I meant what I said I think the staff has brought us back a rock solid plan and I intend to support it and I look forward to the conversation six months from now when they come back and ask for more stuff which will probably give them thank you Mr. Mayor Councilmember all right colleagues there's a bus on the floor councilmember Freeman nope I'm good okay so I'm going to ask the clerk to call the roll Mayor Schuyl ah Mayor Proten Johnson no Councilmember Caballero no Councilmember Freelon no Councilmember Freeman yes Councilmember Middleton I would I Councilmember Reese no thank you thank you Madam clerk the motion passes three I'm sorry fails three to four and so now I'll look for another motion again we're we're not doing any official you know we're not voting on the budget here we're giving our staff guidance and so I'll look for another motion so we can give our staff some direction since we just didn't give them a certain kind of direction anybody have one I think I can manage that Mr. Mayor Councilmember Reese thank you Mr. Mayor I'm I would make a motion that the budget for the community safety department and the Durham police department reflect a mid-year transfer 15 additional unfilled vacancies to provide the manpower we're going to need to staff up the community safety department all right just a second staff needs more guidance on mid-year I would assume that the main January 1st 2022 second January 1st 2022 isn't that six months into our fiscal year I see okay yeah got you all right will you state your motion again sure I would I would move that the budget for the community safety department and the Durham police department reflect a mid-year transfer 15 additional unfilled vacancies in order to provide the community safety department with additional staffing at that time I can't you are muted Mr. Mayor thank you moved and seconded any further discussion colleagues councilmember Middleton yes Mr. Mayor thank you I am fully in support of staffing this department and making succeed as it's indicated and as the staff to this direction I'm going to vote against this motion because I believe that optically it puts this department in a position not to succeed precisely because I think we are now creating in this department the same type of conditions that we have critiqued the police department which we're cannibalizing to support it if we have a community safety department that goes without filled positions now we have the exact same situations in this department that we have in the police department where folk will say hey they must not need them but the fire department needs more folks general services need more folk why would we do that who are we trying to please here I mean what is what is that I'm going to vote against this because I think this department would be better succeed if we demonstrate science-based database need I think a community safety department with positions unfilled because the staff is trying to make up stuff for these people to do as opposed to being driven by data and the work that they do I think we're setting it up for ridicule I think we're setting it up for failure I think we're doing violence to the very thing we want to succeed I don't want a community safety department with a bunch of empty positions so folk can look at that department and say oh look they're just like the police they must not need those positions because we do need them and we do need the department we should vote this motion down this is this is optics this is posturing and it does not forward the mission in my assessment you should vote now thank you council member council member freeman thank you mr mayor and thank you council member militant I also will be voting no just acknowledging I think we're heading in a path down a path that is strikingly similar to what we saw or what we've been seeing and other spaces that have been dysfunctional and I'm concerned I want to also note that this is really not about policy it's about politics and it's unfortunate I really am mindful that there's a national context there's a state context and there's also the city context and I want to make sure that it's noted that if we're in this position and our city is uncharted because of it it is just unsettling to just make decisions based on demands and I think that we should have more conversation and I think that we should have more details laid out because I don't think moving 15 positions from one department to another noting that there are so many other departments including a whole DOS committee that's been asking for an open space and trails like there's so many different facets of the budget where positions are needed that are not even being factored into this conversation and it's frustrating because it's posturing and it's just not real thank you thank you council member Freiland yes thank you Mr. Mayor I just want to offer you know some some thoughts on this choice I mean you know coming from a tradition of black of the black freedom struggle which you know I count among my the ancestors of my cultural through line people like you know Harriet Tubman John Lewis Ida B. Wells Polly Murray there's a lot of things that they did that may have seemed unusual to their peers and contemporaries and I think that's okay to have the discussion to have the disagreement to have some folks that don't align or vibrate with the vision for me as a black millennial activist who is feels very much accountable to and a part of the movement for black lives and recognizing the intergenerational struggles that I see in the black community in particular around issues like these it really harkens back to the way the elders must have been looking at the Greensboro for when they walked up in Woolworths or here in Durham in 1957 at Royal Ice Cream like what are you trying to do here what are you really hoping to accomplish it must have seemed very unusual because it was out of the box it was different and I think that we need a different approach when we're trying to change fundamentally systems rooted in entrenched in legacies of white supremacy so that we can create something that's healing and I think that that's what this is a step in the right direction towards which is why I'll be voting for it I look one of the takeaways that I hear especially hearing from my black colleagues on to my black colleagues that have spoken so far on this issue is thinking around communication this is not what you said just now but earlier when we talked about you know people in the community not really knowing what's up and I've heard that too Council Member Middleton mentioned people asking like so who's going to show up you know when a shooting occurs is it going to be a mental health worker I get those questions all the time too they're legit questions and I think our department chairs and staff and we'll have a big task on their hands to figure out how to steer with the direction that we're giving but I think it's the right direction and I trust our staff particularly with this piece around of the community design strategy the community design strategies role a particular person whose role is to listen will help mold and identify what we want these what we want this department to look and smell and feel like as a uniquely Durham entity for my part I am really behind the idea of making an early investment and a proclamation to the people of Durham that we are taking a shift in our approach to public safety and I think that's that's an important statement and an important investment more importantly I like what Charlie said about your budget is a reflection of your values this shift reflects my values and the values of folks that I feel accountable to so that's why I'll be voting yes and Mr. Mayor I appreciate your comments brother Middleton sister Freeman I appreciate your perspectives and descent and would ask for if this passes for your collaboration and solidarity and trying to figure out how to make this work despite the fact that you know it didn't align with what you had in mind if it passes as I hope it will thank you Mr. Mayor thank you council member other comments Mr. Mayor I just wanted to just note that I would be very careful about my arrogance and how our elders thought about the Greensboro for and I would also just note that it's kind of striking that there's a disregard for the governance that has to occur and in this work and so just be mindful that when you assign an intergenerational struggle that there's also an inter government an inter system struggle as well and I want to be mindful that as as young as I may feel there there are a lot of elements at time has allowed me to see through a different set of eyes and the way that you view what we're doing today may feel like it's right but just be careful because the the repercussions in the back flashes are real and lives have been lost and it will continue to be lost if we continue down this path of arrogance around what people need versus how to work together and so I'll just say that and note that it's that it's pretty much a given that there's a block of folks who want to vote in this direction and so you know whatever the city decides I'm going to speak the court if I'm not going to work against that that's of course you know that would be counterintuitive I live in this city I love this city and this is the city I'm raising my family and I just want to be on the record noting that it's offensive it's disgusting and appalling that you would even try to use my ancestors and the struggle that they've experienced as a part of this acknowledging that this is not that this this has been about white supremacy this has been about defund the police not Black Lives Matter because if it was about Black Lives Matter and we would have had shot spot a free program available in neighborhoods if it was about Black Lives Matter we wouldn't be saying goodbye to Chief Davis we wouldn't be disrespecting Madam Page we'll be honoring the request that she brought forward or the proposal that she brought forward and we will be honoring the work of a police department who has worked over the last five years to shift from what Chief Lopez had in place I want to be very clear on the record and noting that I am completely disgusted that you would even try to make this about my ancestors who have struggled I'm very measured about how I respond to things and I want to be clear that this is this was the biggest offense you could have done thank you Mr. Marriff, I might I Pierce Freeland is one of our brightest lights in the city he's a gift to the city and he's a gift to this to this council and I want to say that I've said it to him privately say it to him publicly but I stand in direct lineage of black prophetic speech and struggle that mantle rests heavily upon my shoulders the invoking of the ancestors and our struggle as a people connected to this motion I think is wildly inappropriate every name that you call is dear to me informs my world view and I've had conversations with John Lewis and informs my work this ain't that let me say what it is since everybody's been unbridled with their tongue this motion is about satisfying promises and commitments made to other groups in this city that's what this is wrote to check time to cash so and that's fine I mean we're this is public square that's politics that's the way the game works but to conflate that with with an intergenerational struggle this isn't about older folk and younger folk there's nothing radical or or or or or popping about saying let's take 15 people we don't know what we're gonna do with them let's take 15 people and put it in a position in a department and we'll decide what we're gonna do with them later to to send signals yesterday there was concerned about passing attacks without spending the money in this year and and and what would that look like doing something in anticipation of what was going to happen today is perfectly fine so so this ain't about the black struggle and and we can engage whenever you like about the nuances and intricacies of the ancestors and how they speak in my spirit and how my work is informed by that struggle on any day publicly privately tell me where it is I'll show up but this motion is politics this ain't John Lewis this ain't Mother Rosa this ain't the ancestors this is about satisfying the commitments you made at all to Durham beyond policing and Durham for all that's what this is about however the it that we refer to having unarmed responders listen Durham every person on this council supports unarmed responders it was me last year that said let's put two million dollars in the UBI program it was me last year that said let's hire and field unarmed responders it was me that proposed expanding violence interruption in the city so every substantive part of this department I support this motion is not about the it it's not about the overall arching proposition it's about detail it's about nuances it's about cash and checks that some of you have written we grow men and women that's fine do what you need to do but please do not conflate our our participation in our place in the long bright glorious sacred procession of the ancestors in the struggle which each of us has a position in has a place in and mine is on a teachable mine will not be questioned based upon a motion to move 15 folk who we don't know what the hell we're going to do with them to another department that's politics that ain't a sacred procession of our people thank you Mr. Mayor frankly I'm just glad enough to be old enough to be one of the ancestors Mayor Pro Tem thank you Mr. Mayor I just want to say a few words about commitments and why I personally make commitments to any group in this community to my colleagues or in general in my life and that is because those commitments align with my values and with my goals um specifically this commitment to to sufficiently resource the community safety department and honestly personally I don't think that 20 officers isn't or 20 positions is enough I don't think 60 positions is enough I think we should endeavor to create a department that is as robust and as effective at responding to public safety issues as our police department to me this feels small it feels like a down payment on a future investment I believe that our 9-1-1 call data gives us clear evidence that there is a significant amount more work that this department could be doing that we are not asking them to do right now and that as we scale up these pilots it does not feel unclear to me what these people will be doing I think that that is in fact very clear and has been we have been provided with a lot of data based on our based on our research of our 9-1-1 calls as to what our unarmed officers safety safety workers could be could be doing the services that they could be providing I make commitments because they align with my values and what I want to do on this council and those commitments align with the platform and the ideas that I ran on when I was re-elected to this body that part I was very clear about what I believe and what I want to do for this community and want a democratic election and I'm now obligated to put those values into practice and to vote those values when these situations come up so politics sure I have very clearly communicated my politics to all of you to this entire community and I will continue to implement the policies that I ran on in alignment with my politics and my values real I don't see anything wrong with that so I just wanted to make it clear that I think that the conflating of of well this is just politics is not reasonable like we this is a specific policy decision that I am committed to and I am working I am I am willing to work with anyone in this community to move those policies forward with other people who share those values and share those policy and political commitments yeah that's all thank you Mr. Mayor if I might amen Sister Jillian you're one of the most respected leaders in the city everything you just said I agree that's real talk and that's all I'm saying this ain't sacred black stuff it's politics and as grown folk when we make commitments and we gotta carry them through I have no problem with that whatsoever everything you just said is 100% correct nobody's mad at you for doing what you said you would do for doing the things you said you wouldn't want to I'm I have no problem with that whatsoever I do have a problem trying to dress it up and put the cloak of the sacred veneer and air of the black struggle on it that's the only part I was speaking to ma'am do you and I think we expect nothing else other than that so I respect that that's real talk I'm just talking about the other stuff that's being poured on it it ain't that it's politics and that's fine thank you council members councilmember freeman thank you and I just wanted to echo councilmember meadowton's sentiment and and to note to may approach pro tem's point I think it's important that you do honor who you are and how you operate what I don't approve of is being disvalued and and the context of how things have been happening in our community across the board and so I'm a you know I'm a faith centered Christian who understands the black struggle and works very hard to to be in the center or the cross-section of where race equity and poverty meet so just acknowledging that there are other thought processes that there are other struggles that there are other just viewpoints I was also elected and I I truly it's truly expect that anytime that one of us is elected that you should be valued as such which is why when councilmember Freelon is elected it would come across very differently to say that this is about our ancestors looking at us and saying we're doing something weird that is not my issue at all I have no problem supporting moving officers from from the police department to a community safety program that is fine but I do think that there's a there's an air of ethics there's an air of of democracy there's an air of a lot of different elements of of arrogance that is so frustrating I appreciate the apology brother brother Pierce I do but hear me when I say this we are all in this work we are all trying to do our part and to undermine each other does not serve any one of us as black people I've worked really hard not to undermine mayor pro tem's positions even if they were at at odds with mine I've worked really hard not to not to even subscribe to that kind of context even though so many people around me would rather I tear that down that is not who I am that is not how I operate and I rebuke it which is why when it comes from a younger generation a black male it is so offensive that I am I just feel a tear and if this is what it takes for you to make a point about emotion I really want to say but I'm holding that back and that's what's bothering me I can appreciate like I said I can appreciate that you have the votes I can appreciate that this is the direction that you want to go in I can appreciate all of council member caviaros points I can appreciate all of council member Reese's points and I can also appreciate mayor Schultz points but what I don't want is for us to look like other boards commissions committees or the capital because we want to tear apart our city making our points the only point that matters we are all progressives this nonsense where we call Democrats Republicans where we call each other not progressive it's all BS that I'm just not willing to deal with that's not how I live my life that is not what I hold is a value and I will not I will not tolerate it I'm telling you this from the start and as we get into this political season all of the nonsense that is going to start I'm telling you if I'm calling it all out that's all thank you thank you council member council member Reese thank you mr mayor I wanted to address the idea that I've heard a little bit today that that demands are suspect the demands of the community are some kind of unsavory political transaction I fundamentally reject that and we've all been part of of responding to demands from our community we've all been at for example a Durham can accountability sessions where we are forced to stand up and say yes or no will you do A, B, C, D and E that's the job sometimes I've been colleagues say no I don't want to do that and but mostly colleagues say yes because the things that are being asked for align with our values as individuals and as leaders in the community and so I don't see anything wrong with demanding things I've heard it said before that power concedes nothing without a demand I will I will say also that this board has been subject of a lot of demands a ton of them many of them by the very same people that are demanding that we transfer today 60 positions from the police department into the community safety department many of those folks are not going to be happy with what we're doing today I know because I've heard from them these are many of the same people thousands of them who emailed me last year during this budget process to say that if I didn't vote against the budget that they would never vote for me again guess what that argument has never swayed me once and it will never sway y'all going to vote who you're going to vote for I'm going to do what I need to do and last year I just put a finer point on it as we went through the roll call on the budgets by virtue of the alphabet and the fact that Mayor Schuyl it goes first I get to vote last sometimes that's awesome sometimes it really sucks and last year it would have cost this city nothing for me to vote no on that budget zero the budget would have passed six to one and guess what I would have been the newly minted hero of all the people that wanted us to slash the police budget last year but guess what that doesn't matter to me doing what's right matters to me responding to demands in a respectful and responsible way is how we govern with our community alongside our community we can call folks the professional the professional organizing class that we want to and in many cases that's true but but you know that's Durham can too friends that's you know that's the that's that's this is who this is who motivates us to do the things we already know we ought to do you know would we have acted with the same speed and deliberation on 505 West Chapel Hill if Durham can had not demanded that we do so would we have put out the millions of dollars in city money to repurchase they at place if Durham can hadn't been on us constantly to get it done no I don't think so so demand is good demand is awesome we have to say no when we have to and yes when it aligns with our values I don't agree with the demands that that Durham beyond policing and Durham for all have made on this council about the police budget but I do agree with what I've proposed today which is that I think we need more resources at mid-year in this department to make sure that we get that the department is ready to do the work that it can do that's why I'm voting for this I don't know why we would want to call that politics because it's what I think is the right thing to do and logistically the right mechanism to do it if that's politics okay but I'm doing what I think is the right thing to do I'm responding to a demand by saying no to one thing but yes to something that I think we ought to do and that's the way this process ought to work the last thing I just wanted to say is this isn't the last time we're going to get demands we get lots of demands all the time our job is to say is to say what we think is the right thing to do sometimes that's yes and when that happens we're heroes when we voted against the development project in Merrickmore neighborhood we were heroes because we we listened to the community and we said no to a developer right but you know later on we're going to see us the lots of other stuff that folks don't like and that's just the way this goes the characterizing these decisions is politics is I don't think particularly productive it's just the way that this has to work because we have to make choices they're going to make some people happy and some people mad and I think we all recognize that's the job or else we wouldn't have done it so that's what I wanted to say about the motion Mr. Mayor and I'm happy to stop talking now thank you I'm going to ask Councilmember Caballero if she has any final comments and then I have a comment and then we're going to take a vote no I was my ask was are we ready to move on from discussion because I'm looking at the time it's 1111 thank you all right I'll just make a comment I have a question first for Councilmember Reese would you accept a friendly amendment that inserted the words up to 15 can you help me understand what that would what that would do for us I don't know amid here where the staff has said in your motion agrees that staff has said that they would come to us with the necessary with the recommendation for the necessary resources I agree that with that we are over time and starting now with the five people we've already got wanting to be moving people from policing as we are able to create alternative forms of response into into different kinds of jobs some of them I might add I believe will be should be in the county I don't think we want to start another social services department we need we have a social services department in Durham we don't want to start a competing one we want to be working with our county colleagues which is why our county is involved in the community safety and wellness task force for example but I believe that we'll need more employees within the city to do this work and I want to be guided by the work that our staff will be doing and that they can recommend to us in mid-year how many people they will be needing and so when I say up to that gives us the opportunity to at that time to allocate up to 15 positions that the staff will tell us that they want and that they need and I think we will that again I think the biggest risk that we face here is that we take actions that are further polarizing and I'll just say that you know this is a very unusual discussion to that it's not a discussion we usually have and I believe that that same kind of discussion with that same kind of passion and dare I say anger and is going on in our community right now around this I don't think that's helpful and I don't think it's helped for a lot of reasons especially don't think it's helpful for the cause of trying to create a community supported alternative response to 911 calls I think it's and I would like to figure out a way for us to come together that can move our community forward we're never going to get everybody's consent I get that I'm not looking for that but I also don't think that we want to do this with 51% of the people I think we want to bring as many people as we can into this into a large consensus that's the way I think big things get done over time you know it's the way you create a it's the way you create a an affordable housing program that you know wins big support it's the way you merge the schools merging the schools was hard and it was a long process and it took but it got huge buy-in at the end and so that's what I want here so that's a long way of saying council member that I think that if we I think that if we say that we are planning to move positions from the police department I don't think that they need I'm in full agreement that the police department as we add functions that to other people if we had other people other positions to do this work that some of the work that police officers are going now will not be necessary and therefore I believe we won't need as many officers I say let's do that in a way that wins the support of our community you know again more than 51% so when I say up to that that says to me that the staff will give us advice they'll tell us what they think and we will at that time be able to follow that advice and move those positions and that would be something I could support so that's my question council member I'd be curious to hear what our colleagues have to say about that idea okay council member Caballero council Mayor Pro Tem Johnson and council member Middleton I'm open to that if we rescind the last motion and we can get seven votes on this I'm sorry could you speak up a little bit I said I'm open to what you're proposing if we rescind the previous vote and we can get seven votes on what you just suggested otherwise I'm not comfortable because if the point is to build consensus and in my mind everybody moves that's consensus in my mind everybody moves from the position that they're in or where they started in the conversation so moving to me means the previous motion which was to adopt what staff presented I would want to take that motion away and we get commitment from all seven voices right now to what you're suggesting which is essentially a compromise between the two okay thank you I can't remember who I call on next I think it was Mayor Pro Tem thank you Mr. Mayor I appreciate your comments and your and your goal to build consensus for me I don't think that's the biggest danger that we face for me I I think the biggest danger is that we don't provide the resources that we need for this project to be successful and and then it fails I up to 15 could be zero I don't think it's meaningful and I'm not willing it doesn't feel like a commitment to me so I'm not I'm not willing to to support that to me 15 already feels like a compromise it feels like nowhere near enough for what we actually need to make this work successful and I think that the work that we are doing and continue to do to ensure that we have the evidence that our staff need to make decisions in the context of the calls that we are getting for service the work that our police department is doing here in Durham not just a national model but specific data for them to guide their choices has already indicated that this is that we need more than this that we need more than this number to make this work successful yeah I support Councilmember Reese's original motion and would not support this change thank you Mayor Printembe Councilmember Middleton thank you Mr. Mayor and I'm going to thank you for your proposal I was prepared to vote against of the original motion but if if Councilor Reese accept the amendment I'm prepared to support it I think that's reflective of precisely what we've been talking about ability to build consensus I think it honors the work of the staff it gives us the flexibility and let me go on record right now let me go on record right now I'll back up let me go on record right now I am fully committed to the success of this department and I trust that all of my colleagues are honest brokers and are dealing honestly this this department needs to succeed because it fully aligns I believe with Durham and my values that I don't want black and brown and mentally ill people gunned down or killed or brutalized by police full stop and whatever we need to do to get there of course we need that to succeed I believe that this department I believe to suggest that we need to make sure that this department is fully funded whether we need it or not is kind of a side way saying that staff you may not have gotten it right I think the staff has gotten it right I think the staff has put us on solid footing for this department to succeed again 15 20 to me those numbers are arbitrary I haven't seen any of the science that supports those numbers but it is what it is if we say that it's not enough well what's the mathematical endpoint of not enough is it 80 is what's that number I don't think any of us know that it's like we want to have the pilots but then we want to determine what the pilots are going to show us so let's go ahead and tool up for what the pilots are ultimately going to show us that's not science I mean I think we should let the science goddess so if if if councilor reese my friend councilor reese would accept that amendment I could I would fully vote for that because I think it honors the work of the staff I think if Mr. Mayor it goes to the point of building consensus in the community and I think it gives us the flexibility to honor the science and let the data speak to us and make an informed decision like this staff always does I would vote for the amended motion thank you Mr. Mayor thank you councilmember okay so councilor reese are you interested in accepting that friendly amendment you're muted but yeah I got that I appreciated what councilmember Kavira said about trying to get a broader consensus on this at the same time I want to make sure that we we do right by this department that's what I've said from the beginning I guess for me part of it would would hinge on what is the what is the budget mechanism that that that accommodates up to 15 a transfer of up to 15 I mean would the budget reflect the transfer of 15 and then somehow they get backed out if we decide to do less in advance the January 1st deadline what would that look like because I never I never heard of that before I guess my sense would be it would be the same as if it was the number 15 as opposed to up to 15 but I see I see that manager Page is arrived on scene so good afternoon mayor mayor pro tem members of council I have been listening to all of the discussion and I don't want to add a whole lot to it at this very moment but as I see nearing the end of your deliberations I did want to bring a couple of points to mind one of the we get into the to the details we get into the documents ultimately there will be a page like you saw as Johnson present today that shows resources that go along with the budget that gets approved on June 21st whether we intend to fill a position at the beginning of the year at the quarter at the half that all goes into the numbers the dollar figures that we that help us make the budget balance where a position sits you know we have to have we have to make a determination of where it sits so we know which page to put it on I want to be really clear about that and we can freeze positions that is something that we do and have done in the past when we haven't decided how we are going to you know when we're going to actually hire people into those positions so that is not for resolution here but it is to give the council some additional information about how what you have been talking about you know and trying to get agreement or or consensus around may be reflected in the document that we present to you the final document after you have given us direction for approval thank you madam manager customer Reese did you have any other further questions or comments well what I heard the manager to say was that we have there has to be a number I don't think we get to add a greater than symbol in front of the or a less than or equal to number in front of the symbol and have the budget actually work well let me ask Ms. Johnson or the manager if we were to say that we would be waiting a recommendation of staff at mid-year for up to moving up to 15 positions from the police department to the community safety department as needed is that something that we could do through our budget process and how could that be accomplished so I think the part about freezing positions is where we would freeze the positions one option would be the positions would remain in the count for police but they would be frozen which means they would not be able to fill those that is the option and then those would be transferred as needed to the department the other option is to put a number in the new department and those positions would be available to be used as needed I don't foresee an opportunity where we would need to hire 15 positions at any given point at one time so they would be available so those are those are two ways to do that what she's referring to is we actually when we show in the budget page each department has a page and we show those resources taught through that department which includes the dollar amount in the FTEs associated with that department and so to her point the positions have to go somewhere they can stay in the police department be frozen which would be done in the past and then when we come back we would make a recommendation that we move one, two, five, 10, 15 of those positions to the community safety department but that could happen incrementally as we do the pilots thank you miss johnson all right other comments councilmember caballero I appreciate what miss johnson just shared if colleagues are open to it the freezing on the police department and I don't know where everyone is but I feel like that's a clear demarcation of what we're intending to the community it lets us move to all the way to 15 if we need it it lets the police department know that they are those are not a positions available to them but I'm unclear if other folks are where I'm at councilmember middleton thank you Mr. Mayor again let me just be clear there's no magic or science connected to 15 so whatever the numbers I mean our staff may come back and say they need more than 15 and I think in the original iteration there was enough flexibility I trusted our staff has no dog in this fight they're going to ask us for what they think they need for this department to succeed that might be 25 so even inserting the number 15 we are already circumscribing the conversation for a professional staff that does their thing all the time I don't understand by the life of me why would we want to do that we trust each other I trust the staff but be that as it may I think the 15 with council copy her said and up to 15 I mean I've seen contracts where we say to council the manager can't spend beyond such and such and I guess that gives our flexibility if the number is going to come in a little less than what the contract is but we've used those upper limits before but I'm fully prepared again as I've said to while not in any way acknowledging that this 15 is somehow scientific based I've seen nothing to demonstrate that or the 20 is scientific based but that's the number in play right now and I think that that would get us to a point of closure I fully think that the original iteration put us in a position we wanted to be in be it 15 or 50 but if we want to stick a number in for good measure I think you know I can go with as I said once again the amended motion to council recess in motion thank you Mr. Mayor thank you council member Reese so the whole reason that I made my original motion was to make sure that that if the department needed additional resources and I think we all agree that at some level they will which they will that they didn't have to go through the agenda process to get back in front of us to ask us to move the positions at mid-year that's the whole reason I did it if the proposal if the suggestion by Ms. Johnson is that we can freeze those positions within the police department for a future decision by this council based on staff recommendation with six months of experience of running the department that in my mind accomplishes a very similar goal except now the staff knows they have to get on the agenda at a certain time to get us there in time to hit that date and I think that's that seems reasonable to me to be a hundred percent honest I would have preferred my original motion which is why I made it but but it feels to me as though while I don't think this is likely to be a unanimous decision I think it still demonstrates a level of comedy amongst our number while accomplishing what I'm trying to accomplish here and for that reason I'm happy to change my original motion to be what the mayor said with the understanding that we're going to move forward with freezing 15 unfilled vacancies in the police department for a future decision by this council and transferring up to 15 of them to the community safety department based on a recommendation from staff thank you so I'm not sure is that so I'm not sure who made the second on your original motion but that person would need to agree and if not we would need to have a new motion in a new second and I don't agree okay so councilmember Reese do you want to make another motion I'm making the motion I just said okay can you state it again sure we are the the budget that we're working on right now we're directing staff to freeze 15 unfilled vacancies in the Durham police department such that when staff comes back to us at the end of the second quarter with a recommendation for additional staffing needs in the department of community safety that the city council can then elect to transfer up to 15 of those positions into the department of community safety thank you for that is there a second second seconded by councilmember Caviado madam clerk I believe we've had all the discussion that we need up is that council may I have one quick you have one quick comment because I think it's important the way and I think councilor Reese for his motion I intend on supporting it but I want to be in light of the way he's clarified and contextualized I think I should say