Hello, everyone, and welcome to the webinar series of the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network, or ECCN, a network of the American Institute for Conservation. My name is Emma Hartman, and I am one of the digital platforms' officers for the 2019-2020 term. Today's webinar is entitled, Navigating the Workplace and Harnstein Community as an Emerging Conservation Professional, a panel discussion. This webinar is the second in a series of ECCN educational programs generously supported by the Department of Art Conservation at the University of Delaware in honor of Bruno Puglia. ECCN is grateful to the University of Delaware for this opportunity to celebrate Bruno's legacy as a mentor and educator and to commemorate his passion for the conservation profession. For more information, please see the announcement on the ECCN community. I'd like to take a moment to briefly share information about ECCN and our webinar series. ECCN is a network within AIC that is dedicated to supporting conservation professionals in the first stages of their careers. Please visit our page on the AIC website, our Facebook page, or our Wiki of resources for emerging conservators for more details about our activities. ECCN has an ongoing interview series with conservators and specializations that require particular training. On the ECCN blog, you can find recent ECCN interviews with conservation professionals who specialize in the care of library and archival materials, wooden objects, East Asian art, and electronic media. You can also find ECCN interviews with United States citizens who trained abroad and are currently practicing conservation in the U.S. And now a bit about our webinar series. ECCN organizes two webinars each year on topics relevant to emerging conservators. Our webinars are all recorded and the full videos are available on the AIC YouTube channel. If you have ideas for future webinar topics, feel free to contact ECCN at the email you see on the screen or post suggestions on the ECCN Facebook group. And now about further ado, I'd like to introduce our two speakers for today's webinar in navigating the workplace and harnessing community as an emerging conservation professional. Anisha Gupta is the Assistant Conservator for Archival Materials of the American Philosophical Society, APS in Philadelphia. She's also Co-Chair of the AIC's Equity and Inclusion Committee and Co-Chair of the Philadelphia Area Conservation Association. Leslie Ransick-Ate is the Owner and Principal Objects Conservator at the Art Conservation Group in New York. She's worked in private practice and for major museums since 1981. She's an occasional lecturer at the New York University Institute of Fine Arts Conservation Center and is a fellow of the American Institute for Conservation. For more detailed biographies for our speakers, please visit the blog post regarding this webinar on AIC's online community. Today, Anisha and Leslie will be responding to discussion topics and questions submitted by emerging conservation professionals to ECCN's Digital Platforms team. We'd like to thank you all for submitting such excellent discussion questions. If you have additional questions during the program, please do submit them via the chat function on the left of your screen during the webinar and we will return to them at the end of the program. I'd now like to turn it over to our speakers, Anisha and Leslie, to begin the program. Thank you. Sorry, go ahead, Leslie. No, I said thank you. This is Leslie's voice. Anisha, go ahead. Yes, and this is Anisha's voice, so hopefully you guys can keep track of us. And we received a lot of really great questions which we're going to try to answer during this webinar. Before we dive into those questions, though Leslie and I thought it would be really helpful to start with this first topic, setting expectations in your workplace. As we were going through the questions, we kind of kept coming back to some key ideas, so we thought we would summarize those right up front so that we can reference them as we go through the program. So the first one is really beginning at the interview stage. So Leslie, do you want to start with that? Yeah, thanks. When you show up and you've made contact with the conservator and you've shown up and are hoping to be taken on as a volunteer or intern at the pre-program stage, it's a great time to get a feel, use your intuition to sort of feel what's the place like?  What's the communication? How does it feel to communicate with this person who will be my supervisor? And as you're doing that, paying attention to the interview and how they talk about the institution and the other people you work with, does it feel good? Does it feel negative? Is this really a place you want to be? It's also a time to, you know, you're trying to gauge how it'll feel to be there. And then to go right into talking with the possible supervisor is what are you going to do when you're there? Are you going to be doing desk work all the time, bench work all the time? What can you expect when you show up? Do you want to go into that a little bit, Anisha? Yeah, so setting expectations when you start the position, so it's going to happen during the interview or right when you start the position is really important. So asking questions about the types of projects you're going to work on and saying what I'd really like is portfolio projects or what are the kinds of things that you want to learn? Because I think sometimes you're in, especially if it's a short term like internship or fellowship, you're kind of a few months in when you realize, you know, this isn't, I'm not really getting what I want out of it and it's kind of hard to bring that up. So something that Leslie and I talked about which I really liked was setting up at the beginning what you want out of the position, kind of taking ownership over that. And then following that, also set up specific like time intervals to check in right from the front to see that these expectations are being met on both sides. So say, you know, once every six weeks I'd really love to just check in and talk about the progress I'm making and when I go over the projects I've been doing or whatever. But you don't have to go through kind of that awkwardness of having asked for that meeting and make it a bigger deal maybe than you wanted to. I think that would really help. One thing I also want to add that I was thinking about is that when you're going into places, like when I have people who come here and want to be volunteers and they have a little bit of experience but not a tremendous amount, it's sort of like a trade. They're volunteering and they're getting my time and they're getting my conservator's time. So it's very important to us to make sure that the volunteer is getting what they need out of the situation in the same way because we're putting time into it, we really want the intern or volunteer to do the work that we want them to do, that they're qualified to do that we brought them in to do. So it's a bit of a trade and I find that the communication helps a great deal across both because we don't want the interns or the volunteers, some of the work might not be terribly exciting. So we'll balance that with something that's very exciting. So we want to make sure that that's happening, that the people who we have here are getting what they need while also helping us because we're a private practice and we do need help. And one other thing that we talked about was the generational divides that you often find in labs. And I think I would say to that is think about those generational divides, consider them, but I would also like to think about the great things that can come from working across generations. I think in a lot of labs you're seeing millennials, Gen X and boomers all in one lab and I think that we can all gain so much from talking to each other. So if you're a millennial like I am, think about what skills you have that you can bring into the lab that might be really useful and some of them are kind of cliche but social media and doing some magic work on an Excel spreadsheet or Word document or even just like connecting with some of the quote-unquote younger departments that might be in your institution like education, marketing, social media. Think about those kind of other things that you bring in because of where you are and the things that you can learn from all of the years of experience that are around you and I would say try not to be cranky about that. It can be really easy to be like, oh you don't even know what I'm talking about and I'm talking about a TikTok video or whatever, which I have to say is not my generation. But there's so much that we can learn from each other and I think we should be mindful of the fact that we are all coming from different places. I think the idea of the generational divide is going to come up many times in the next hour. And I second Anisha's thought which is that both I at the end of the boomer generation and others who I don't even know what they call the new generations. But we have to embrace all of them and I have to embrace yours as well as you embracing mine and as much positivity and curiosity about our different places and our different understandings of how the world works is only going to increase the benefit all the way around through your internship and onwards with your career, not to preach. All right, yes. We go on to the next first set of questions. Right, so this is where we got, I think, some of the greatest number of questions. So we will put three of these questions there and I think we'll just go to them one by one. So the first is how can a new conservator go about enacting needed changes in their workplace when faced with coworkers of highly entrenched and potentially incorrect opinions and ways? Do you want to hear that one? Well, this question addresses so many different things. The first thing is you're new to a situation, so what might seem highly entrenched may or may not be. Potentially incorrect may or may not be.  Again, it goes back to dialogue and before you can enact or make a change in a situation, you need to understand it fully and that comes from questioning. It comes from curiosity and if it's a treatment that's being done all the time and you feel that there's a problem with it, why do you feel that there's a problem and have you asked all the questions of the person who's doing it or teaching you about why they're doing it this way? There can be many different reasons because this is the way the lab has done it forever and there perhaps you have an opening to discuss other possibilities. There could also be monetary and time constraints that you don't know about that you should know that you can then be told about and that can help you understand why a treatment like being done one way. Again, it goes back to having the conversation and then that should hopefully allow you to start working towards positive solutions. If you find that there's just no way but you're going to be able to change someone's mind, with your in and institution, I would find others who are more like-minded. If you're someone who is having ins, I'm sure that you'll hear your coworkers talking and you'll find other people who have your attitude. It might not change what's happening in your direct lab but I think it can do a lot for your morale to find other people at your institution that believe in what you're doing and then maybe you can ask them for advice on how to introduce new ideas or create change. If it's something even bigger than just one person then you kind of have found those other people and they know your situation because they work at your institution. You can try to start creating change by banding together and finding the people who do have those opinions. I guess I wanted to bring up some of these other questions we're talking about treatment which is kind of a different situation where people in other departments might not be as useful. The second question there is how do you navigate conflicting opinions for treatment between colleagues in your department? As a least senior person it can be difficult to assert my opinion on treatment particularly when it is in direct conflict with what a more senior person may recommend so a less invasive treatment versus a more intervention treatment. I can start with that by saying to build on what Leslie was saying about open communication so learning to talk about your opinion without negating someone else's I think is really valuable especially in these types of situations so to be respectful of what other people are thinking and especially in the treatment just asking why, why is this your approach or why is this the material you're using and you may come out of it thinking, oh this is something that makes a lot of sense given this reasoning and you learn something about it helps you understand the approach that they're taking and it also creates space for this type of dialogue so you're kind of modeling the kind of behavior that you would want to see as well like creating open dialogue and you might start changing lab culture just by modeling what you are hoping is happening. I would also add that sometimes when you're coming into a new situation and you don't quite know what the ground is that you're standing on it can take a certain amount of nerve to start talking about something like this to step into an unknown situation either in treatment or in how a lab is run but I have to say that with people that I bring into my lab one of the reasons we do it is because we do get quote, not entrenched I guess but we get, you know we start, we keep doing things over and over again the same way and whether or not it's paperwork that we're doing the same way or managing a project or doing a treatment we do get stuck in a rut and so we actually encourage volunteers and students who work here to speak up because we can't necessarily see the things that you can see so while it might seem weird to say well why do you do your paperwork that way it might be like oh wow it is really sort of strange that we do our paperwork that way the person might have a very good idea and make us start thinking about things in a different way so do have the nerve to speak up, do, you know again it's that balance between being too cocky and actually realize that you do know something and you do have something to offer because of my experience people do I was just going to say it might feel a little awkward so as Anisha says talking to people in different departments if it's a museum or if you're in a small situation sort of finding who might be good to have lunch with and talk your things through with go for it. Yeah as a newer conservator myself I will say like I graduated a few years ago and it's hard to be confident in your own skills especially your treatment skills maybe you just don't have the breath of experience that your colleagues might you have to weigh your confidence against your experience and how comfortable you feel and certainly ask for help when you need it but also don't always second guess yourself you know like it can be scary but you have to also think about building your own confidence and maybe you do know something you know some newer technique or even just the way we look at treatments has changed over time so being open about that but also being confident in yourself you have to balance. I would say specifically to people who have come out of school recently and are at that stage you are so much closer to the recent literature the active conversations in classes than I am you know I have more experience but I don't I teach in one of the reasons I do that is so that I can stay on top of the literature otherwise I don't have the time. So you guys have information that I just don't have yet you know and if you've heard about a new way to do something that is something I want from you I want your information I want your thoughts about it I want the the literature citing I rely on the young conservators for that and also the excitement that you bring to things because it is new and I think there's a mixture I don't know about the second guessing I think I still second guess myself all the time so I don't know how you're going to stop doing that. But you know what I mean I mean I think it's if you've made it into one of the programs you've gone through this school then you obviously there's a certain level of intellect that you have and that you're bringing to the plate and to the table and that is something that if you're not in an environment where they want to encourage you to bring that out then you have to question the environment you're in and whether it is a good place for you to be working. Yeah that's the perfect segue into the last part of this of these questions which is how do you cope with colleagues and your supervisors who may seem disengaged from their work, and just shrinking financial support, complacent with negativity in the workplace, and dismissive of enthusiasm or curiosity. Yeah. I mean that's just so sad when I read that question. I don't know where that person who wrote that question is working. I know. I think so we don't know who this person is we don't even know what level they're at but I'm positive they're not getting paid enough to be in a situation like this, especially if you're pre-programmed and you feel like I need this reference, I need this experience in our kind of conversations before this Leslie you said like it's not going to help you to work in a non-curious place and that just really sticks with me. Conservatives are curious and interested in their work if not enthusiastic and so it's going to be hard to build a strong portfolio working in this type of environment and it's certainly not going to be fun but if you feel like you have to say in this situation I would go back to what we were saying earlier which is like find ways to boost your morale like finding other people who are excited about this work and have more of your attitude. If you're in a really, you know, a private lab or this is your direct supervisor then I would start looking for other work I think I would definitely start, yeah I would absolutely start looking for other work and I would also, you know, if you're not getting the curiosity at work then at least try and get the bibliography for the things that you can read that can feed your curiosity as you're looking for other work because if you're in a pre-programmed place that curiosity when you go to apply for a program any of the programs is they want your curiosity and they want to see that you're out there and doing the reading and doing the looking and when you go in for your interview you're not expected to know everything you know, why would you bother going to school if you did but they are expecting, so you know they are expecting to see you reaching out of yourself and if you're, the situation that you're in as far as a pre-programmed internship if not feeding you that then you need to feed yourself and go get the information yourself and I don't, I honestly don't know yeah, sorry. Well maybe to be more optimistic I would say you don't want to kill your own curiosity and enthusiasm so I would bring that to the table as much energy as you can master every day and see if it becomes more contagious I'm thinking, exactly, you might have already tried this but you know, I am an overly enthusiastic person often and I have gone into job interviews and felt like I was the loudest person in the room and maybe I was scaring people around me and I just thought, you know what, heads are going to get in the lab so if they don't like that then it's just not going to work out and I do think that you're hunger for all of this information can be really contagious and you should use that and hopefully the people around you will be reminded of why they got into this work and there's got to, yeah, so so good luck to you, writer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also remember that one of the things that struck me as you were talking is that one of the reasons not to stay in a situation like that is that even though it looks like it takes forever to become a conservator, you're actually the process of becoming a conservator is so thick with information that you have to gather that not that you're wasting your time in a place I guess I'm saying like do your own research dig into things if you're in a situation where someone else is defeating you but also you do every minute counts as you decide to become a conservator because it takes so many years to get to a place where you realize that you don't know everything and to be confident about that just where you get a few years out of school and to be able to embrace that and say this is great I'm going to feel like I don't know everything. So if you're in a situation that's really pretty bad I guess just try and find other people get on the blog so they can find other people that you can talk to about it. Yeah, definitely. And the ECPN forum is one place your ECPN regional liaison does meet up. If you have a regional liaison you can reach out you could become a regional liaison and find other people like you pitch the ECPN program there. But yeah, come out and find us because we're everywhere. I'm going to add one cautionary thing which is that this is a very, very small field and we sort of all get to know each other eventually although it is getting bigger. So if you're having a problem in a specific situation with one person or a group of people be very cautious about naming names to other people. You know, don't, you know, accept the idea that maybe it's just you in the situation that's not working. Do not place blame on other people. Does that make sense, Anisha? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It is a very small field. So, you know, kind of find solidarity but maybe not vent to those same people. Yes, I think that's it. You know, it's just you don't... Other people. Yeah, be aware of that. So these are people that you might run into many times over your career and you want to stay in, you know, you want to stay in their good graces and they should want to stay in your good graces as well even if you don't agree about everything. All right, should I... Any last thoughts before we move on to the next section? Yeah, I think moving on to... No, I think it's good. Yeah, okay. And I guess I'll say... I can't remember if Emma said this or not, but if you have questions, you can, I think, chat them to us, message it into the chat, and if we have time at the end, we'll get to it. Otherwise, we'll get to it afterwards. We'll write a blog post. So the next couple questions are related to compensation. So the first question is, if you have been asked to interview for a job that the salary range was not posted in the original listing, is it appropriate to ask for it at this stage, particularly if you're likely to be interviewing at other institutions? Leslie, do you want to get started? Yeah, my initial reaction is that, yes, it's absolutely appropriate to ask what the range of the salary is. You should also be ready for someone to say, we won't tell you now. Great. I think, at least in my institutional experience, that if it's not posted, they generally don't give it to you until they make you an offer. But we think it doesn't hurt to ask, and there shouldn't be any repercussions from asking, like revoking your interview or anything like that. I think it's fair to ask. Right, and in my situation, in the private world, depending on whether it's a pre-program or a student or an intern, then I am more than willing to discuss because the salary is very commensurate to skills or skill sets that the person might be being hired for. And again, it goes back to what I said at the very beginning, which is it depends what the person is coming in for, what the trade is, I guess, for using a skill that you have that you're strong in and then giving you a conservation experience on the other side. I certainly am going to pay you for your skill. But I might not pay you for the teaching that I'm doing for treatment, and so we come up with a price that works for me as a business owner and you as someone who's putting time into something and needs to get paid. Again... Go ahead. I was just going to say we should bring in the second question because it kind of expands this a little bit. The second question is, is it okay to negotiate any fellowship offer as you would a job offer? Many of us fear repercussion of asking for a higher salary, most often stemming from the perception that we should just be thankful for getting a fellowship in the first place or the possibility that an offer may be revoked for simply asking for more compensation. Yeah, so I feel strongly about this. There's a lot in here. So yeah, I would negotiate a fellowship offer and I know it's often an endowment or a grant or some sort of pot of money, but I would still negotiate the fellowship offer as you would a job offer. It's often many years. It includes health benefits. There's a lot to it. It looks and walks and talks like a job, so I would negotiate like a job. If you're worried about, well, they said they only have this much money, there are other things. I would first try to negotiate the salary for sure. If you're not getting far negotiating the salary, then consider what else you can negotiate. So your days off, your education and research time, working a flexible schedule, think about the things that you need to make your work life better, your personal life better, and what they can do that then wouldn't cost. If they don't have the salary, money, what else they can do for you? I agree with that completely. I also think that it's going to take years for the fellowship. I mean, fellowship has come up significantly over the arc of my career and over the arc of your career, they will continue to rise because people need to keep working on it. And that's the only way it is going to rise. And I also think that by asking about and negotiating, we'll help that happen. If people are vocally taking issue with what's being offered as a whole group of people, then it'll have to be listened to and changes will have to be made. And I guess another thing that I forgot to say is that you could also negotiate, like if it's year one, year two, the cost of living adjustment, I think they're going to go up where you live. That's a much smaller amount of money for them to give you. Yeah, I think all your ideas are good. And especially the, I guess, all of them, I think are good. And be as creative as you can. And do you bring it to the institution? The second sentence of this, I'm happy that we're bringing these types of issues to the forefront. 84% of institutions or something like that, a very large percent of institutions, at least for jobs that don't have dollars or numbers, expect you to negotiate. I just want to make sure that we do a little myth busting. If they expect you to negotiate, they're not going to revoke the position. Maybe, and I don't know about fellowship, so maybe they don't expect you to negotiate a fellowship as much. But when you reach that point and they've offered it to you, they've spent a lot, invested time and money, staff time, resources into interviewing people and have determined that you're the one. So you are at, you have leverage in this moment. So take advantage of that. So we should just be thankful for getting a fellowship or a job or internship or graduate school. No, you worked really, really hard to get here. I know you did. And you deserve this. And we have to really get rid of this attitude that Locke has anything to do with it. I also would, can I interrupt one second? When you're applying for a fellowship, it might say just right up front, what are they now? Are they giving you $30,000? This is a $30,000 fellowship. So you knew up front. It is more now? That's great. I think even up to 50, some of the more expensive cities. That's good, that's good. So you know immediately, they're going to say, well, you knew what the salary was when you applied. And that's where you start getting creative. Well, maybe it's not cash that you need, but days off to go do research or whatever you can come up with that will help you be thrilled about having a fellowship. And we could go on about compensation forever. And so instead, I co-authored Blockhouse with Ariel O'Connor and Jen Lynch, which is it's listed below. If you Google it, you should be able to find it, where we talk a lot more about like why you should negotiate, how you should negotiate, how to negotiate a federal job versus other positions and lots of resources. So if you're feeling unsure, we try to compile everything that we could come up with and we certainly welcome comments and feedback and much more discussion because there's just so much to talk about here. Yeah, that's a good blog. All right, should we go on to the next one? Yeah, I think your blog kind of covers quite a bit. Yeah, we tried to cover everything that we could and hopefully it's a jumping off point for people. Yeah. Okay, health and safety. So if you are a fellow student, crew programmer, or recently emerged conservator, experience health safety violation in a private practice setting, what is the most effective way to address this problem? There's a couple of layers here.  If it's an active problem, it's an active situation. Do what you feel is necessary to take the danger away and if it's not quite that active or when you're finished addressing it, you go to a supervisor and you explain what's going on. And one of the things, I was talking to someone about this yesterday, one of the issues is many of the pre-programmers don't know what's a dangerous situation. They may be asked to work with materials that they really shouldn't be working with or don't know how to work with properly. I'm not quite sure and they won't realize it. And I didn't know any issue if you had anything to speak to that because in certain situations it is up to the supervisor to explain the dangers of working with a certain solid and say that the pre-program person might not know about and I'm not quite sure how that can be avoided or what to do about that sort of situation. If you don't know, you're presented with a situation where you have to use solvents or something and you don't know but you know that there's potentially a problem. I do think the ASC Health and Safety Committee has lots of great resources.  What gloves do you use? They have an extensive glove guide which to me is always quite confusing. Which respirator to use? What kind of PPE you need in general in different situations? So I think if you're unsure and you don't feel like you can ask your supervisor, it's not really part of the culture of the lab. I would peruse their Wiki or website. Look at their resources and even just finding the safety data sheets which are pretty easy if you Google, we'll tell you at least what levels you're looking at. So do your own research. And I would, one of those moments where you just have to kind of be confident in what you know is right and what you need and ask for the respirators or just put on the gloves or do what you need to do even if that's not what everyone around you is doing. If you don't know, I mean if you don't even know that you're supposed to wear gloves, I'm not sure what to do about that. I'm not quite sure. I'm going to take this a little bit away from the question which is health and safety, I've read into people earlier in their career who aren't really taking their health and safety quite as carefully as I want them to.  Well, it might not bother you, but if it doesn't bother you, think about the person at the next desk. It might bother them. If someone comes over to you and says you really should be wearing a mask, an N95 mask when you're doing this, don't shrug it off. Maybe you really should. When you're young and heartier and you haven't been exposed to all that much, you're pretty young and hearty, but you can become overexposed to many of the materials that we work with very, very quickly. And that's a permanent thing. If you use epoxy the wrong way for too long and smell it too often, you can become sensitized to it and you can never go into a room with epoxy again. I speak from experience for something because I am the canary in my lab because I have been over-sensitized to certain things. But I guess my thing is that when people do say something about health and safety, take it seriously. If it doesn't seem like it's all that big a deal, oh, there's always mildew in my bathroom when I was growing up and it never bothered me, so why should I worry about being on a mold site?  And you should listen to the advice. Yeah. So I guess now I'm sort of forgetting where we started, but... No, I'm sorry. Yes, I took the time. Definitely a second. Sorry. No, that was great. But I just want to make sure we say, talk to your direct supervisor. I don't think there's anything... I think the theme of the seminar is open communication. And I don't think there's anything like the health and safety committee can do for you or OSHA, unless you're at a very high level. And if you're at that level of contacting OSHA, I think you need to leave the situation. And then it sounds like it's very unsafe if they're not going to... I would like, you know, when you're going into a new situation, also you can ask if they have a mass creed. You don't have your own mask respirator. And I've considered, for one, you can ask them about being fitted, which is complicated, but at least having one that you can use. And ask them to explain the situation to you. Ask them what sort of venting they have. You know, especially in a small lab, you know, private place, like what do they do and how do they deal with things and how can I be smart about it? Right. Again, proactive communication. Yeah, exactly. Like doing this right at the beginning or even in the interview and just getting a sense of how this new lab talks about health and safety too. You know, we'll tell you everything you need to know about what it'll be like to work there then. Yeah, I think that's, again, hit it before it happens. Yeah. It just avoids, like, awkward conversations later. All right. I'm going to go on to what I think is the last topic, equity and inclusion. So what are the best ways to find community within the profession as a person of color, especially since the conservation labs we work in are predominantly white institutions? So I'm going to give advice based on exactly what I did to answer this question. So I reached out to my network and, you know, talked to people, because I didn't really have an answer is that I am South Asian American and I think it was just, like, a really great question that really centers around, like, having to build on relationships. So I think, like, the technology we have these days helps us really create and maintain relationships that are really spread out all over the country and all over the world. And that's what it's going to take right now if you want to have this community. It's going to be pretty spread out. And it can be hard. I mean, it can be really hard to create these spaces. So I would say, like, be open and creative about how you create this network for yourself and it really depends on how you identify it can be as a person of color or LGBTQ or, you know, whatever kind of community that you're looking for. Like, if you're working at an institution, if they look outside the conservation department, in my experience, the education and, like, social media departments are often the most diverse departments and they're also bringing in more diverse audiences. So that can be a really fruitful place that you can look. But you can even look further out than that, like, within the larger cultural heritage community, like emerging museum professional groups or nearby university groups or even just, you know, away from cultural heritage. So, you know, you're getting a little bit further from that. But, yeah, so I would say, like, so I would say the main thing is you're going to have, it's going to take effort on your part to build these relationships and you're going to have to sort of, I think, find them where you can, what makes sense in your situation. But just thinking about equity and inclusion in general as a topic, I think in conservation we focused a lot on racial equity and a little bit more on gender equity. And I think, like, if we, we should be thinking about, like, moving the whole field forward, you know, kind of creating a community network that is for everyone and think about who we're leaving out and not, you know, thinking about access and accessibility and disability issues or classism or, you know, just thinking more broadly about who we mentor and how we mentor them and what they need and just being really open about these issues in general, I think is also really important. So, at the bottom, I found one resource that actually found just that I use myself, Five Tips for Finding Community, The Person of Color Arts Professional, which has some interesting things and also, like, links that'll take you to other places. So, I hope that'll be helpful. Thank you. Yeah. So, that's actually the end of the topics that we had. And so, I am going to turn it back over to Emma and see if we've got any questions during the webinar or how we're going to wrap it up. Thanks. Thank you so much, Anisha and Leslie. Yeah, we've received a few questions through our Google Form that we sent out prior to the webinar. And the first is about salary dissociation in a private practice. The participant wrote, I recently entered my first job in a medium private practice. From what I've gathered, my parallel colleagues with one to three years of experience are making a yearly salary of $10,000 plus more than mine. The trade is much more aligned with local norms of institutional conservative positions and unfortunately, I did not feel that I could negotiate the job offer up due to other circumstances. Is this large pay gap typical in private practice work? And how can I respectfully approach a new negotiation with our director? How can I advocate for a pay raise when I'm still beginning to build my experience level and my track record? I'll speak to that. I think that it's very important to talk to your supervisor or your boss about the situation and your personal situation and what you need. I don't think it's ever too early. Well, let's say, I mean, you need to advocate for yourself and you need to be in communication with your supervisor or the person that's deciding the salary and talk about how to get you to where you need to be and how... I guess I wouldn't address the gap between you. You can bring it up. I wouldn't harp on that. I would bring it more to how you and your boss can get you to where you need to be in the best and quickest way possible. I have no idea why the salary is so different than other people in your basic same situation, but it clearly is a problem so you need to address it. And you should have any ideas to that. Yeah, I agree. I think you have to address it and I think you just have to bring it up. I think that's the beginning. Did the person just start? Yeah, I guess they just started the job but I guess my thing is, don't as a boss, I love it when people come to me with creative ways and with both specific information and creative paths to get to that solution. So your salary is $10,000 less than it should be compared to other people who are there. So how can you and over how many years is it going to take to get you to be a parity with other people at the same stage? Also, it depends on what packages people have. There are packages where someone can have health insurance, someone might not or there's a different type of health insurance or there's all sorts of different things that go into the package that someone gets so I would talk to the supervisor about that and how to make yours work without more information I can't say. And you should sound like the other people who just had two other people had significantly more salary at the same stage. Yeah, I mean that's really difficult and I think it's important that people are there isn't that much of a gap in one situation because it ends up creating with this hierarchy and I think and I haven't worked in private practice and I know it's harder with a smaller lab but I think that you have to I think you I think you should Sorry, it's tricky. I think you have to think about that gap. I mean it's like why are you getting paid less of those people if you're in the same or similar position and I know that's a really hard discussion to have and this is where I like to bring in data of what other people are making in the city at the same level and some people in your own lab but I think it's going to be a civil conversation but I think you have to bring this up of like what can we talk about this and why we're sort of in this position and how can we work through this. Yeah, I think you have to be a partner in working through it because as a private business I can tell you there are all sorts of reasons because there's more money sometimes than other times and So having that frank discussion is important Yes, well and do things up, you know Absolutely, the frank discussion is absolutely important and you need the employee needs the information in order to feel good about what they're doing and in order to know that this is the place where that could be and that they're going to be paid in equal manner and how they're going to get to that place Yeah, talk to your supervisor. Alright, thank you both. Our next question is about navigating relationships with co-workers that might not be directly within the conservation field. The cigarettes that occasionally conservators can be typecast as people who are constantly saying no to things and they're wondering how might you best go about building working relationships with those people who might not entirely understand the conservation field? Hmm Yeah Well I would say again, like get creative about how to get them excited about conservation, so inviting those people to your lab like all the time to come over and see the projects you're doing or a really neat thing you're working on even doing more formal things that maybe you have before your business party or holiday party you do an open house in the conservation lab where people can come in what you see or you work in small sites and you feel more comfortable sending out little missives like oh this is a really interesting thing I'm working on and thinking about so those are all kind of like the outreach sides of it and I have to say you have to do it many times and it's not that people aren't interested it's really about not having time or missing that time window sometimes I'm doing a really cool gel treatment or washing or something really dramatic and I tell people from 10 to 12 I'll be working on this so stop by if you're in the area and take a look at what this is and it just gets people invested in what you're doing in a different way so I think that can be soft and showing people what you do and that you're open to the rest of the institution and their input but then if there's certain departments that maybe you want to collaborate with or you want to turn this idea around about the conservator I would you can be more direct and talk to them about what they would hope to get from treatments in the conservation department or you can pay really good attention to the kinds of things that they're working on and how you could help them get to where they want to go like if it's a curator and you offer up using the microscope or something like that which could help them with their work or just ways that getting created with ways that observation could help this department and rebuilding that relationship that you are very open and then when you do have to say no it kind of comes from a different place than it may have before I agree with all of that as inclusive as you can show people the things you're doing I think I missed part of the question Yeah, about conservators often saying no I think trying to turn that image around Oh, okay I find again that to be odd so well I mean our job is I find my job is nothing but education and I have a great deal of fun talking about it and trying to find out what in my toolkit can help other people in the museum and help the conservation what can the registrar do what can the photographer do what can the curator do we have so much information that feeds all of those different jobs all the different parts of the museum that I think opening up your lab until people are doing a gel treatment is a great sort of thing I often have my dino light and I show people what things look like why am I just doing this surface well this is what it actually looks like I think it's clean, it's not things like that we have a whole realm of information and is great thank you both those are really really great responses I think we have time for about one more question this last question is do you have any suggestions or particular considerations for individuals working in smaller workplaces who might not necessarily have HR departments when they are dealing with a situation that traditionally might require going to an HR department it's a very broad question yeah I because I don't have an HR department we deal with things in lots of different ways yeah I think I mean I think I think knowing I'm kind of saying knowing your rights but sort of like knowing what is allowed and what is not allowed you know like thinking about health and safety and things like what is where's the line and how to deal with that knowing what you're kind of entitled to is important so that if you feel like there's an issue since you're not going to be making that with HR though I will say like HR is good and is important but it's not it's they're working for the employer often I mean you know there's kind of a balance with HR you have to be careful with HR as well no matter what situation you're in it's really important to know what your rights are in the workplace and if you want to lodge a complaint whether it's with HR or not it's important to bring in that evidence to say and it doesn't need to be like you know you're putting someone on trial but just being confident that what you're going into is you know these are the reasons why you're bringing this up so whether you're citing like maybe an employee handbook or just basic you know a safety data sheet health and safety kind of requirement or what it is just kind of having a clear argument that you present will also just help you be more confident in bringing up something that's likely uncomfortable yeah and I also to say that just in a small situation it can be very difficult there can be clashes between people that are more than they should be there can be I don't know there's just so many possibilities and all I can do is go back to take care of yourself and open communication as best as possible and again without knowing what the particular issue is I don't know that I can speak to more specifically than that great thank you both it looks like we're just about out of time but we will be posting a follow-up blog post with all the resources that our speakers today mentioned on the eCPN AIC online community and I'd really like to thank our audience for joining us today if you have any additional questions or suggestions for future webinar topics please email our team at eCPN.aic.digitalplatforms at Gmail and I'd also really like to sincerely thank our speakers for participating today in this webinar it's been a very wonderful discussion and your contributions to the topic have been really valuable thank you as well for the rest of the eCPN officers and the AIC for helping to organize and promote this event thank you are we off air has left a conference


That we are live. Oh, we're live and our microphone is falling over. So it's already starting. Well Jesus You'd think that after some months of this I would have gotten the setup right, but no I don't do right Don't do right. This is from a video where that I'll be publishing later tonight after the stream and Let's just say hello as a hi My name is Kim Diaz Holm also called den unge had Holm and I make art for free use every Thursday I Take a request from you guys and I draw whatever you want and this time I made a poll with Three different creatures that may happen to be in Dragon's Dogma 2 Who knows and It was Dragon it was what was it Dragon and Griffin and Sphinx and the Sphinx one Love your nails. Thank you Where are everyone Located today, where are you watching from and we Minana is here And if you see she's got that cool green she he it they who knows God has got that cool green Text and that's because they are a supporter on my youtube channel and you can also become a supporter and that helped me a lot so I can make More art for free use. That's the whole Thing in my Bob Uh-oh, we have some questions. I was just trying to find a video explaining the little Uruburu's circle Circle that you often use in your drawings any significance or is it just a cool symbol? I haven't made a video proper about it yet, but there is significance. It is a an and so which I Appropriated from Japanese Shinto Sen buddhism And there is a Let's say a religious significance for me, but The way I use it is if I suspect that the art may have some sort of spiritual significance either because of what I'm drawing or Because of the process of drawing it and things that have gone through my mind Then I sometimes put the anso there in order to check with the fates to see or With chance or with the gods or with whatever to see if I Can keep the drawing or not. So if I manage to make the anso in one Or Reasonably one go if it turns out well Then I keep the drawing if I mess up the anso then I have to tear up the drawing. That's the rules I didn't make the rules. I only made them Hi But you also have that as a tattoo, right? Yes, and if the tattoo artist had Messed up I would have Had to Tear up myself and toss myself out. No But the tattoo I drew in the tattoo shop They also in one go But yeah Let's do some art So you guys voted for the Sphinx Or a Sphinx And we're not going to do the Sphinx From Egypt But we are going to do a Sphinx Is it spelled and so yes, I think so There there are it is from Japanese. So there are Probably multiple ways of spelling it Found you through scott christen sova. Great. Are we drinking tea weird drink? I don't know what Tea this is it's a some sort of sleepy time flavor So if I fall asleep during the stream Blame the tea Hey from America Okay, so shall we start with Doing a Sphinx I think I'll start the Sphinx like this How how is that gonna be a Sphinx Oh That didn't help me Okay Maybe it did maybe it did I think it would have said on the tea if it was chamomile so the Sphinx in Giza in Egypt Is a seems to be a representation of a pharaoh and Is a generic sort of guardian figure that you find in a lot of Egyptian around Egyptian temples and stuff like that But we generally mix it up with The greek and also middle eastern Sphinxes Which Are more of a mythological creature. I guess that the Egyptian Sphinx was also a mythological creature but I haven't been able to find any reliable info on that and that's the problem when searching about Sphinxes is you all we find is Graham Hancock bullshit and ancient alien stuff and The problem where I I like a good Ancient alien yarn as much as anyone but the problem is that that there are so much Of it that it becomes impossible to find the actual factual information and not the shit that Graham Hancock Drammed up when he was on some trip whoop whoop halfway to a midlife crisis Who who's there? Oh 1983 I'm a 1980s child 1980 exactly So Yeah, this will end up well I Still have not come across the Sphinx yet despite beating the game looking forward to it dragon's dogma has been Uh, nothing quite like anything I've played before the dragon's dogma is uh, two is great so far Uh, I'll tell you a secret. I haven't came come across the Sphinx either but I searched for creatures in Dragon's dogma and I got spoiled so we're Yeah, it's a Graham Hancock arcing around hanging from right up Until the Sphinx racism comes into play Very uncool dude snake all salesman. Yes and that that's the problem of all the the the Alternative archaeology guys. It's not that we don't We need theories that challenge the current Archaeology and the current history because well a lot of the mainstream history is That you teach uh learning school and stuff is wrong because it is old-fashioned and it is Basically taking the narratives of kings as gospel but um The fact that we need Better history and better archaeology doesn't mean you can come in and say that that Aliens built everything And I've been looking at images of uh, Greek Sphinxes all day So that is what I'll be trying to do Today, I don't have any reference because I forgot to print it out, but I think I can do A Sphinx without a reference I loved watching ancient aliens as a kid very late at night. Yeah, I mean I I watched all of that stuff and I watched uh far and high and I watched uh Uh searching for Atlantis things and I you know, I I absolutely love that stuff and I was also Kind of far towards believing a lot of that stuff for a while Enough the ancient aliens part, but uh, there has to be something more apart And a lot of the conspiracy Part and that's been very strange seeing that Uh, you know a ton of my leftist friends and me After 9 11 started believing more and more of the conspiracy stuff because there was You know, there was a conspiracy going on a conspiracy to invade iraq on false grounds Um But Then you started, you know getting into stuff like Alex Jones and all of that stuff and it led to worse and worse places But it was still very much, uh counterculture leftist thing to To fall for these conspiracy theories At least in my group And then Things shifted And Now it is a weird trumpy thing Who would have thought I'm so happy to live in the same part of the world as kim. I have always Time to watch draw What draw I think is I think I I think this is called draw what? I should know because I named it I can rename it Yeah, but anyhow the reason why i'm drawing the Greek Sphinx is simply That was easier to find stories and mythology about You're an anarchist, right? Yes, I am so The Greek Sphinx is most known From the story of edifice, you know the guy who Shags his mother and kills his father And one of his heroic deeds before he shy marries his mother and kills his father is that he Solves the riddle of the Sphinx and There are two riddles That the Sphinx tell and they are classic riddles And it's kind of fascinating that these riddles seem to be at least 2500 or maybe more years old And the first riddle is what has Four legs when it's young two legs when it's adult And three legs when it grows old And the answer is There's no price if you win You do one patricide and that's all anyone remembers. Yes. Yes. It is poor poor edifice So that was the first riddle and the second riddle is Two there are two sisters The first sister gives birth to the other sister And then the other sister Gives birth to the first sister Human human. Yes. What is a man? Yes As a young man getting my degree I love Joe Rogan and the fringed thinkers he interviewed Watching him sink into conservatism has sucked. Yeah. Yeah. I used to love Joe Rogan as well. I Still think he's funny and uh a good interviewer. I I don't know.  Yeah night and day night and day is the right answer so on the uh first riddle it was a human because we um We Crawl on all on all force as toddlers and then we Then I'm trying to pay attention to the drawing as well as talking Then we walk on both legs and then We end up with a cane This was before Self-driving wheelchairs. Do you have self-driving wheelchairs? Do you should have self? driving wheelchairs I like her face right now Uh and then the Second riddle is of course that uh night gives birth today and birth gives day to gives birth Ah night gives birth to day day gives birth to night That's how it goes and I think it is I love this myth because it is It is such a fascinating way to transmit These two basic riddles. Um it's just uh A lovely way to pack Uh pack this Little bit of cultural knowledge, which riddles are into this larger narrative arc Uh, so you don't just remember the riddles because you're good at remembering riddles, but you remember them because They were the ones That beat The Sphinx herself Dear Kim, I don't know if you'd be interested in this, but I'm part of a young person's rights activism group in the UK Uh, we have an arts cafe Would you be interested in coming to speak at one? Are you sure if I can? Uh, if we can make it logistically, I don't have uh, yeah, I I would be very interested to I I don't yeah I like speaking and I like going places to speak so so I would like to do more of that definitely A riddle I heard in swedish The more you take the more you leave behind. What is it? The more you take the more you leave behind Uh Lovers Kim canceled that was a joke Uh I don't know. I'm really really bad at riddles but uh, uh, Ethan, uh, just contact me at um Post at den ungeherholm.com and uh, my associate christopher will answer you You The ah is the answer to the riddle time or is it a whole? Working overtime right now and this was just what I needed to help push through Good to hear Except if you're working with something Important then pay attention to your job. Damn it a whole Just answer to the riddle What what is bigger the more you take away? Yeah First it give it then it take it away So We can do We can do the riddles if you bring them but uh, do anyone have any questions or or Something to discuss Superb, I'm myself. I'm an 18 year old anarchist black metal musician with autism And you have been instrumental in getting through my day today some massive.  No I haven't I want to but I just haven't gotten to it What do you think of socialism? We need more of it It sort of depends on what your definition of socialism is but but if your definition is Uh, the workers control of the means of production then yes, we need more of it Or unions we need more unions Labor rights we need more labor rights equal rights for men and women and trans Thingamabobs Those are socialist opinions or Positions and we need more of them. Do you like rage against the machine? Yes, lovely band I mean I was What when is the first album is it 94?  Is there a show about cthulhu? I haven't watched it I didn't know I'm so out of the horror loop because my wife doesn't like horror And being out of the horror loop is lovely Because then the few times I get to watch horror. I get genuinely scared because I haven't watched anything for so long I'm messing up the sphinx Are you a fan of queens of the stonage? Certainly a few of their albums Then I They're one of those bands where I absolutely loved Their albums for a while and then I Fell off at some point. So yeah, I I'd call myself a fan. Yeah Do you Ever take commissions from a vtuber? What is a vtuber? I do take commissions You can contact me you go to my website and ungehadhome.com and contact me through there Well, there are socialist robots in an untitled pve game so Okay Do you prefer prefer a brand new brush? No, I mean Look at this Let's see. Does this look like a brand new brush? You can't see it, but it's not a brand new brush It is a poor old abused Brush A vtuber is a streamer that presents as an anime anime. Wow I've seen those um I guess I I wouldn't have anything in principle against Doing something for A vtuber I guess I don't know why I should have anything against that. I don't know should I? Yeah, so so there are a lot of reasons why you could Want to present yourself as a digital avatar instead of a real person and some of those reasons are Good and necessary and others are stupid.  No That would be problematic on a live also because I release all my art for free use um and To draw someone else's photo without knowing if they Actually have the rights to it And then releasing it for free use so that anyone can download it and print it and Distribute it and even you know change it and sell it Would be problematic I've seen a few vtubers with black and white or ink avatars. Fascinating. I haven't seen that How would his art style? translate to anime Is anime Moving animated vtuber. I don't know I would like to see that I did ask people to All right I did ask people to um to Help me create a I algorithms or train a eyes On my art, but I forgot to follow it up. So I need to write a bunch of people an email and try to follow it up Can you draw a bird zombie or no? Hmm Maybe I think this uh swing is pretty much Is it done? It looks done so maybe I don't know what we'll draw now some but maybe a We'll see let's do an ink blot and then Distracted now because I'm I noticed I'm getting a bit of a I'm having a bit of a cold and I'm Sniffling and I don't want to be The snotty on the internet No one likes to be snotty on the internet So excuse me like this Just incredible You make it look so effortless What had the second most votes on the poll? I don't know I Guess we have to look Greetings and came love your art. Thank you so We can have a look Would someone have a look and see What was second place on the poll?  I'm doing the date because I can't keep track of the Numbers anymore and I don't do the ink monsters daily anymore. I do a few a week but not every single day anymore so That means the Daily ink monster numberings are is dead now. I think Dragon is the second It's very close Do you go live this time every week? Yes Have folk said you kind of remind them of merlin? Yes Uh, do you ever do cyborgs robots or things of that sort?  It's been a while since I drew a dragon It's been a while since I drew a drake Lake It's been a while since I fought my brother in the tv show ricky lake That song went downhill quickly with an outdated reference zombie bird with the dragon Zombie bird with the dragon We'll see we'll see. I don't know. We'll do like this Oh The dragon is already drawn It's a complete dragon. I don't have to draw anything This dragon is already drawn if I don't mess it up Then it will be cool. I think I messed it up.  Yeah, so so the the thing about doing Stuff that requires research is that it requires research And that's very hard To get done While you're streaming So I would love to do more Aztec mythology and All of that fun stuff but It's not going to happen on the live unless I've already researched it like You know the reason why I I knew anything about the Sphinx today is you know I I have researched those stories before and I have you know I've heard of the Sphinx before but I also Read up on the Sphinx and you know found images and all of that stuff before The stream so that I was prepared but with Something that that I'm doing live with you guys and you guys help Shape the art as I'm drawing that then it is harder to do something that I'm actually prepared to To do justice to so so tlaloc is something we have to save for For another day, I guess I haven't drawn Any Ulster cycle heroes or gods Uh, I Don't know if I've drawn any monsters from Them but that would be a higher chance of that I guess because I've drawn a few Celtic and irish monsters, but I don't Uh, I don't know. Um Yeah, I definitely should Look more into the Ulster cycle at some point research and mythology is a minefield Shitty AI slump around every corner in that field. Yeah, so you usually you uh Usually don't have troubles with AI if you stick with you know, if you do image searches type in archaeology as well or in greek cases a vase or Sculpture then you will get a few like Garden sculptures and stuff like that, which is annoying, but at least it's not a fake AI Image I'm not quite happy with how this dragon is Developing You did draw, uh goddess kali. Remember. Yes, I have drawn kali Long time ago. I would love to do it again What was your first car? I I can't drive I've never had a car my wife now Drives and has a car. So I probably should get the driver's license at some point I don't really want to Think I would make a great driver Yeah, I'm messing this up more and more. It had a lovely eye there, but it's Looking worse and worse I think maybe if I Move the eye over Here, yeah Then it's getting a little bit more of that menacing look What kind of paint and art supplies do you usually get look in, uh, the the Description of my long form videos and I think also of some of my lives and you will find a complete list of different tools I tend to use but I do vary it and I do Change it up if I can Let's do a bearded dragon because I've Not done enough of those Kind of looks like venom it does doesn't it Do you have any tips on getting rid of art block?    I won't train for it I'll just assume that I can do it And that's what people do with creativity all the time They assume That they can just stop Doing creative things stop drawing stop painting stop making music whatever and come back right as They were and you can't You have to ease into things and you You know even in a period where Even in a period where You are creatively low you should Have some creative exercises that you can do like drawing silly ink monsters That you don't have to show to anyone drawing doodles drawing from life following online courses following books going to courses Educating yourself as an artist is a brilliant thing to do in an art block because You shouldn't expect To do it well You can The art can come out crap, but you can still learn let's draw this thing Thank you for the super chat. Yeah, thank you so much You can give super chats that is much appreciated And the text says for art block try app oblique strategies by brian eno I don't know of that app, but I should think that brian eno has good strategies for art block He is a magnificent musician and composer and I have grown up with his music and still Listen to him a lot What about digital art? What about digital art? digital art is awesome and all the same things that applies for for Traditional art applies for digital art What are your views on today's capitalist society? Don't like it I'm First of all, I more and more think that that Calling it capitalism is Getting to be more and more a misnomer capitalism Failed and died And gave birth to something new and strange Janis Varoufakis calls it Techno feudalism. I like that. I think that makes sense Post capitalism can make sense Surveillance capitalism, but I think techno feudalism is closer to what we live in and yeah My favorite version of the Joker would probably be Uh Brian Boland's in the killing joke wonderful artist I'll look more into Techno feudalism do that. I haven't read Janis Varoufakis book I have read some of his other stuff. I want to read techno feudalism Uh, definitely My favorite Yeah, favorite Joker was Brian Boland's but but uh jack Nicholson was good as a Joker if you're meaning as an actor I I didn't like the movie all that much, but I think heat ledger did a terrific Joker Uh, you know jack Nicholson's is uh magnificent. It is To cure my art block. I just go outside to find inspirations And if I don't get any then I have some ice cream I think it's difficult to argue against Jack Nicholson Being the best Joker and probably Difficult to argue against heat ledger being the best Joker and I haven't seen joak in phoenix, but probably him too But but it's very different jokers. So so I got some art supplies lately and discovered new way to draw with pen shading excellent discovering new ways to draw is such a good feeling And uh, I wish I could do it all the time but uh Unfortunately It doesn't work like that I haven't seen the new batman adventures. I loved The Joker in batman the animated series Jared leto was good. It was so such a awful movie that I I And of terrible design, I think you know, you're allowed to say I'm wrong and to say why I'm wrong, but I Don't think it had much to do with Jared leto, but it was in my opinion an awful movie an awful Joker, uh, but I don't think it was Leto's Fault Is it strange to have a connection to the stars? No, I think people have held connections to the stars for millennia for Hundreds of thousands of years probably Jared leto was absolutely terrible I agree with you. He also made the design. Yeah, but but but I Uh I I I know nothing about that it was just It sounded like a bad production all the way who is your Um Favorite superhero spider-man Either that or daredevil or wolverine, but spider-man it is spider-man Uh Is there anything you might want to say to your young audience of 17 year olds? That is a good question. Uh I I would say find ways to be yourself in a way that doesn't Destroy anything for others either And most of all Try to do better Than those who are my age because Uh, we fucked up and those before us fucked up and Those before us fucked up And we need people young people to do Better and you can probably I mean young people today are Generally so much smarter And so much more knowledgeable and more reflected Than my generation was So you can probably do a lot better than we did Just yeah It's norway cold in norway is still cold No sign of summer here for a long long time I love Batman in case you couldn't tell I could tell Michael I could tell I like Batman as well Batman year one is magnificent there's uh I read a lot of Batman growing up Um Thank you for the encouragement and reviews It's touching 40 degrees celsius here already Oh That is I mean It is uh Less than 10 degrees celsius here and it's can drop to minus degrees still But but spring is slowly coming. Yeah I like Adam west. Yes. Uh, that was a silly show But I was always Very disappointed with the Joker in The old Silly Batman show never liked that Joker The comedy was gold, but probably can't say much these days. What what do you mean? Have you ever felt drained? After completing uh art piece yes You should and after such cases you should relax Uh It is It is kind of a weird How Artists are So incredibly afraid of Taking time off me included but if A weightlifter Set a new personal record They would They would plan for recovery after that That's simply what you do you plan for recovery And and you do recovery and then you do a D-load week or two Or you even take a complete vacation and then you start easing into it again. You don't go Full force personal record Again and again Because that that's impossible and It is more possible with art than with weightlifting But what happens is and this is kind of insidious Is that if you're working constantly And just creating art art art art art art You don't see that you're starting to repeat yourself and I I'm guilty of that Look, I'm drawing a dragon mother. Why did I say mother? Oh, is it possible to Buy any drawings? Yes. Go to den ungehardholm.com and also Yeah Use The promo code Thank Slash no You oh, sorry. Sorry Thank You use that promo code for 20 10 20 for some percent off I should really pay attention to my online store But I try to pay as little attention as I can I need to make some videos about that Because we're celebrating that I've been 10 years on patreon and we're giving everyone a promo code. So yeah Uh do that and yeah go to let's see den Unge hardholm.com I don't know if You can see that or if the It gets censored. I don't know It's a gold dragon. Can you see the link? It must have been a Freud and Slipple. I mean nipple. I mean mother I mean slip Yeah, the mother thing was I was trying to Say something like look ma another dragon, but then I fumbled it And it became it's another dragon mother Which doesn't sound As cool. I guess Advice. Thank you Thank you all for Hanging out and for having fun Yeah Why is this dragon standing like this? I don't know but uh It is I think this I think I like this dragon. I mean it should have his wings out like that, but But I wanted to draw it without the Wings out Dragons are my favorite mythological creature. Yeah, I think they're mine too That are trolls. I don't know something Okay What shall we name this dragon? Another dragon mother No Okay, I think I'm pretty much done for This stream how long have I been going an hour? That's not too bad So I there was a question if I get uh exhausted or drained after Uh doing art and after doing these lives I do get drained because because talking trying to be coherent and entertaining and reasonably honest And drawing at the same time and reading your comments. It's a lot to juggle in a poor Head brain thingamabob You did draw a raasvelger. I did have drawn a raasvelger. I did a very nice uh The rendition of a raasvelger Mother dragon Mother dragon My favorite mother dragon Sure, I can spell today But you are my mother dragon anyway Okay Before I leave you guys do you have any Questions Any final questions Minane says Kevin. Oh, I should have called her Kevin, but she is mother dragon You're ending the stream now. No Yeah, I think I am because uh Uh I'm still a bit exhausted after The inferno festival. It's been taking a lot of time To get back to normal and my normal is A bit bipolar anyhow, so so it's ups and downs Um Yes, if you do not Want to answer this one, please it's up to you. Oh, I'm waiting with anticipated breath But just wanted to ask you about how are you mental health wise? So, uh, I am uh bipolar Uh, and my bipolar is Is generally a lot of long depressions and uh A lot of long depressions and then shorter periods of Hypomania Hypomania Right now, I'm not quite sure where I am. I Suspect that I am in a sort of a middle depressive period Uh, but it's very hard to say because I Overworked myself so much during the inferno festival That I haven't quite gotten on my feet yet and that might be because I'm in a depressive period or it might be because I overworked myself or it might be because both so so Generally, I'm uh Okay I guess Um, do you find your bipolar cycles correlate with the seasons at all? Yeah, I usually get my Longest and deepest depressions during summer Um, so there is some correlation. Yes Hi Kim, how's it's going? Hello, Tobin Did you watch shogun not yet Do you know exactly how many ink monsters that you made so, uh My last numbered ink monster was 1,550 something I think or 60 something so we're we're closing in on 1,600 ink monsters since I began This batch of ink monsters and before that, I mean I used to do a similar thing that I also called ink monsters In The early 2000s I probably made a few hundred then as well, but they were crappier What is the festival you attended? You can watch a few of my videos about it.  He was just he was literally on fire They set set fire to his head and he danced around singing fire And he was just seeing Singer with that much experience and lived life Just take over the stage and command it and With such joy and Gratefulness to be there That is fantastic. I think that the gratefulness To be there is something You sometimes get it with young bands Then it often disappears And then as they get older it just increases and increases and I mean there are bands that are super grateful to be there at any age, but generally there is There is a time where it can become sort of mechanical And then you know at some point if you like what you're doing and you get to do it until you're 82 Then that is kind of magical and when Arthur Brown was alone on stage And the other music faded away and he had his Silver uh or gold skull makeup on And stood alone with the microphone Singing again and again I will sing with the voice of love The voice of love The voice of love That was just Yes Literally on fire truly inferno. Yes And it was so you know fantastic to have this 1960s legend that that inspired You know kiss and Alice Cooper and Rob Halford and Aussie Osborn and just inspired Generations the generations that became metal and to have him at a black metal festival at an extreme metal festival and there's nothing Metal about his sound or music And and to just have him be So perfect for it and so vital and uh Yeah, it's so well received as well I love your work. It's so inspiring got any tips or tricks that have helped you improve in the past I feel like I'm getting nowhere with my work So tips for uh improving is I I did a uh I Tried to make a podcast a few years ago And one of the episodes that are still on my youtube is called How to start at art and that that has basically my approach which is play around And when you find something you like playing around with Or That you would like to play around with but you hate doing so you need to get better at it Study that And when you study that Get to a point where you can execute it And if you have those Three faces you have play study an execution Then you can play then you can move around those three faces in any order you want and Start improving But it it's not necessarily that you should improve everything You shouldn't improve linearly like a straight line That that's not how you improve art You should sort of improve like whoops this way whoops this way whoops this way so you Play around If you're stuck with something You've been studying Try executing it if you can't execute it try playing around with something else and When you find something you like Start studying it Then execute it or play around some more. Those are the three steps that you sort of can can Can move about and Start improving and also, you know Look critically At your own art not to say oh i'm So bad i can't draw but say Like if i were to look at this Critically i can say that yeah The head turned out really good. This part turned out really good. Here is a little bit of a mess. I should have Perhaps done another composition. I should perhaps have done a wing up here and then Up there, but the silhouette on the tail Works the silhouettes here The whole position it's a bit wonky all in all Some things Work and i've done better than usual Some things don't work and i've done worse than usual What should i try to improve to next time? yeah I personally feel metal uncomfortable because i'm more inclined to classical Rabindra Sangit I Don't know what that is, but i would love to hear But watch someone singing while on fire is pretty cool And so Arthur Brown wasn't metal at all that it is 60s rock and roll that that that's what it is It's always nice to hear people talk honestly about how they are doing from an adhd Perspective i can kind of empathize i can definitely empathize with adhd I was diagnosed with it for a long while because These things overlap Also another Manner to improve is not to dwell On the piece you are struggling with instead Find a way to improve upon it the next piece. Yeah So there are periods Where you should If you're studying then you should probably never Make a finished piece. There's no reason to make a finished piece When you're studying you can just do sketches and sketches you shouldn't catch us Then you get to this point where you have to start executing Because if you're not executing the art Then you never see how good you how much you learned So what I see a lot of people do is They will study and then they will Start making What should become a finished picture and then halfway into it. They would say no This isn't working out so It wasn't the right time I had a lot of things at work and I was distracted by this and I you know And then they will Just continue making unfinished pieces As a way to protect themselves from having to see How much they've learned and in any piece of art you do there will be a thousand reasons why You could have done better. You could have done worse it And life never gives you the perfect opportunity to give to make your art So it comes out warts and all so When you are Have studied or have played around for a bit execute Make finished pieces warts and all Then make a new one then make a new one And have them be finished signed everything And then study play around But you have to sometimes execute the art and see how far you've gotten and We all have excuses for why our art could be better But it's not We aren't as good as we think we are. We are as good as what we managed to put down on paper And I eat a bit Of everything when it comes to music right now. I listen to studio ghibli music mostly yo, he's He's shy she studio ghibli is has a lot of fantastic music I Probably mangled the name though I worry too much and I don't know what to draw I've been up most of the night.  That's not good. Then you scrap that and Start early in the day with the creativity and that will follow you throughout the day Um I know that a lot of people think they only get creative at night and that is for the reason why Your brain needs to start mixing things up And drawing connections that shouldn't be connected like Edward monks scream a penis and skateboarding And for a lot of people that starts happening when they are tired after a day But you can also start making that happen earlier through the day and probably benefit from that Have you ever worked on black paper? Yeah, I have some black paper I have Let me see. Let me look is it rotted and covered in No, that's wrong here. I can show you a secret work Can you see on black paper? It's not that way. It's In this way So yeah, I work on black paper with white sometimes, but it's uh Yeah, I I like Drawing black on white better than white on black Apologies if this poor stream etiquette, but If you're currently looking for an idea, I know I've drawn two Two things already The music I mentioned is uh relaxing and slow-paced. Yeah, what did you call it so I can write it down? Where was that comment Bindra Sanjeet Okay, I will check out what that is I am an indie game developer and my brain comes up with amazing ideas between 2 a.m. And 6 a.m. Yeah, and that is a habit I'm not saying that you have to change that habit, but Uh for a lot of people it's both possible and better To change that habit for me, uh, I I used to have that habit and that was a big part of Making my bipolar cycles worse Because I started working from 2 a.m. To 6 a.m. To then to 7 To 8 9 then then I turned the the The day around again and again and that's not good. So if you can try to Make Have techniques to turn the day around And start your creativity early Uh that will be helpful in the long run, but it's not something everyone can do some people do Magnificent work and only at night and So it's not I'm not saying this as a blanket everyone should get up at 6 in the morning, but If you manage to do that then that's probably better long term Oh, let me see I My computer is just messing up now. So I think That's time for me to end Let's see what we drew We drew a dragon And we drew a Sphinx Thank you so much for watching me today. I will be back next week For now I'm stopping the sunday streams So it will just be thursday streams for now and Yeah, it's been fun. Go to den ungehadholm.com to buy original art or prints or merch Or support by becoming a youtube member or sending super chats or becoming a patreon member or most importantly Support by using my art all my art is available for free use. You can download it. You can print it you can Make small trading cards and trade with your friends And you can even sell it as long as you put my name on it and figuring out how to use my art personally Hanging it on your wall or putting in it as your screensaver or figuring out how to make money on my art and actually Doing that in a sustainable way Even if you don't give me a dollar Is supporting me because it's spreading my art and it's spreading my name. So if you're using my art in any way Thank you so much And I'll see you next week


We're gonna bring up Chief Robert White to come up and accept this proclamation and on his way up chief we just want to say Excellent job in leading this department. Sometimes you get a lot of arrows But we just want to say thank you for your hard work and we see the change. Thank you If I could ask some members about the apartment, please stand I Had I had asked that they come here tonight because I wanted them to hear Directly from you how value they are and they've heard that and I would assure you that they're gonna go back and share that with the other 1,400 members on our police department So on behalf of all the members of our department and certainly want to thank councilman Brook and the entire council for this proclamation and Tell you that it is greatly valued and it is and it is nice to know that we work for city and council members That really care about what we do and I also want to remind you as the councilman Brooks has stated this Friday at 9 30 Is our memorial service? We'll have a memorial service for the 69 members that were killed in the line of duty and the latest of those 69 members is Officer Selena Hollis who on Sunday, June the 24th of last year lost her life So if you hadn't received your invitation, please you will receive it and please consider Attending I also want to mention that Selena's family is actually in Washington DC Where her name is being placed on a national memorial So again on behalf of all the members of all the apartment We greatly appreciate this proclamation and equally as important We appreciate your support that you've continued to give prior to my time And I know you continue there could get far after the years that I'm gone supporting the men and women our police department So thank you very much. Thank you very much chief white