Good evening. Good morning. I'm not sure where y'all from. Good afternoon.  I do want to go over a couple of rules This is per myself and per brother Pogany remember guys, we're Christians and Remember that God is watching so don't don't only act like he's watching no He's watching and so he remember the different ungodly chats or comments that we make so make sure that we remember that We are dealing with people who at least professed Christianity now I say that because some folks think that either myself or Brother Pogany aren't brothers now I've been talking with him and so if I'm gonna call him brother and you all know how I hold the doctrine if I think he's a brother I think I have good cause and so that being the case. Let me go ahead and bring my brother on real quick So you all can see that he's here brother Pogany. How you doing today? I'm excited to be here and in this corner Man listen, so what we want to do guys is before we get started want to go ahead and He and I already prayed but we're gonna pray before you guys that way we can all Kind of come to the table together. So if you don't mind father God, we just thank you father for this moment We thank you for this opportunity father always said that it's not what we know but who we know that saves us and because we profess to knowing you and that you are our father that means We're all family and so though we may not agree on everything Lord God father The one thing we agree on is that you died on the cross for us Lord God and that by placing faith in what you've done Redeeming us Lord God that we are all part of your family. So have your way in this time Lord God We pray that our discourse would be cordial and godly we ask that you would govern us in your mighty name We pray amen So What I want to do guys, I think I might have my volume a little too loud. I'm peeking over here So what we want to do guys is want to cover a couple things now? Obviously There are differences in views and opinions with without question Some of the things though that after talking with him There's a lot less disagreement than I thought about that doesn't mean that that I'm that we are to not push back You push back on the things you think are important, but at the same time We don't bury a brother because we have differences. And so here's what I mean What makes a person a brother? What makes a person a Christian? Well, obviously that you place faith in faith in Christ. It's not step one two three four and five If you believe what Christ did what we're gonna be celebrating this weekend What Christ did on the cross if you put faith in that and what he did You are a Christian and if you're a Christian you are a brother Now I'll let him tell you about his story because some people want to know What makes him brother even really what makes him ticket? So we're kind of we're gonna kind of get into that I'll kind of weave myself in there a little bit as well And so that being said before I turn it over to brother Pagani I want to say hello to the people who are coming from Brother Pagani's channel. How are you all doing? We don't always interact and fellowship We may even have the best view of each other with net best thoughts of each other because we just don't interact We see things differently, but that's fine Just know that we are all on the same team And so one of the things one of the things that I want to do is I want to let brother Pagani Explain matter of fact. Let me just ask you this question What is your main focus because I heard one day about you about floored me. I heard one day You and your wife talking and wait a second that ain't the Pagani that That that that we hear about that we talk about and so tell us a little bit about you so that the folks who don't know you Couldn't learn of you. Okay, so I know what video you're talking about It was the conversation that me and my wife had as in relates to some of the videos that you had released Concerning kind of Christian, you know have a demon and the deliverance idolatry, you know So I just felt it necessary maybe a couple of days later I didn't initially see the video until a couple of days later And me and my wife definitely kind of responded indirectly because I'm not into the back-and-forth on social media But what we did say is that our primary focus as a Christian church is not deliverance idolatry It's Christ crucified so when you do come to our church that we pastor We've been pastoring for the last 19 years Here in the South Bronx, you're gonna find that we're a normal church that glorifies Christ And our primary objective is to preach the death burial and resurrection of Christ now Online the narrative makes it appear that we are you know deliverance idolatry, but if you come to our church No, you're gonna find that we just decided to do deliverance last week because some people needed it But we haven't even conducted deliverance in our church in the last six months Why because the church primary reason for existence is not deliverance the early church in the book of Acts didn't go around preaching deliverance They didn't even die for deliverance. They preached the death burial and the resurrection So you're gonna find that every Sunday in our church people are getting saved born again set free by the power of God Coming into faith in Jesus Christ turning away from sin and as they grow in their Christian faith Sometimes not all the time if your church teaches good sound doctrine You're gonna find that there's gonna be not a need for deliverance as frequently now. Do we offer deliverance? Yes, why for the believers who have maybe lost control in some areas? Well, I get it They you know, they come in they ask for deliverance and I'm not the type to just tell someone man Just go pray about it You know, there's nothing wrong with praying for somebody who believes that they potentially have some type of demonic Contamination or infiltration there so we pray for people now To you know to our what we do in New York, you know We've conducted over more than a thousand one-on-one deliverance sessions in the span of many years So it's not like you come to the church and everything is deliverance deliverance deliverance My wife kind of pointed that out to me and she said you have created a narrative online This is what she told me which is why I had her come online lying that day She said you have created a narrative online that people believe that that's all you talk about and that's all you preach About so you can't get mad if people think you're either not a brother or not saved or Sensational or maybe extreme fanatical is because that's a narrative You've created by the content that you've allowed to be released on your channel. That's all they see so they don't know Anything outside of that when they come to the church then they end up seeing something very very different And everybody that's in the chat room can tell you that visits our ministry is is that our primary focus? It's not the devil is Christ crucified, you know and how to be saved born again and get set free and Discipleship is the main thrust of our church. We just we just happen to do deliverance So my wife and I that they did talk about that and it was kind of like in response to your video That you had released so that way, you know people out. They don't think you know like I'm like this deliverance Junkie or something, you know, like that's all we talk about like over glorifying the devil We don't over glorify the devil. We just don't ignore him when he shows up So yeah, so that's kind of like what was the reason behind that particular video of me and my wife Can't hear you Mike All right, I'm sorry My daughter went out and I had to make sure that she left and make sure that you lock the door behind her So I hit it mute and forgot so I'm sorry. Thank you though But we'll cover we'll cover a little bit more guys on the deliverance side But you made a statement and I want to see if you can kind of clarify that we talked about this before Where you mentioned about being demon conscious versus demon aware or demon idolatry Yeah, can you explain it a little bit? Okay, so that was something that I actually for those of you that are watching this is you know me and pastor Cory I call him I call him a pastor because he's teaching people online consecutively every Saturday, so he's doing the work of a pastor So please excuse not into titles But I just want to honor him for what I believe that he he inherently carries online. He's an online social media pastor I told him that you know, there's a difference between you know being demon conscious and being being demonically Aware I'm not demon conscious. I'm not looking for the devil under every rock. You know, god is sovereign I want god under every rock as a matter of fact, christ is the rock But what I am is demonically aware which means if and when You troubleshoot that a person's problems could be potentially beyond repentant and beyond Irresponsibility of discipleship into scriptures that I am going to explore the area of the demonic, especially when this westernized Evangelical or American evangelicalism tends to ignore the demonic. I don't ignore the demonic You know, I'm not one of those just I'm enslaved to encouragement or and neither am I am I a secret sensitive guy? Like, you know, the devil's beating somebody up and I just like just confess faith my brother No, if the devil's there man, let's get the devil out. So I'm demonically aware But not demonic conscience, which means I'm not looking for the devil But eventually I leave myself open If the holy spirit or my discernment in the scriptures tell me I think this might be a demonic malevolent entity Then I'll go down that trail And help someone potentially get set free from what could be considered, you know, demonic infestation or, you know Whatever the case may be. So demonically aware demonic conscious. That's not me. I'm demonically aware not demonic conscious okay, um and We'll cover a little bit, you know, kind of how we how we see things Obviously, we talked about this a little bit that How and you I guess I'm pretty sure you you have seen at least one of the videos some things that I've stated in terms of how we view demonic influence I think that everybody would have to agree that there is demonic influence is just How do we address it? I'm how it's dealt with and so forth whatever, but We'll cover that but some people have asked About since I called you brother How is it I can call you brother? And of course there is this this deal on the uh, I think it's on your channel I think I saw it somewhere about about your conversion now. So you all need to realize that There's a there's a bit of a a kinship between between both of us and that Um, we've both been in prison. Yeah Now This is why I can deal with people who even I listen I can have someone call me names and disagree and we can go out and hang out still Um, because well for 13 years in prison, that's what you get No, no one's gonna cut corners with you and talks off to you And so I can I can handle a punch in the mouth Uh verbally or preferably not physically but uh, and so matter of fact, I recommend you all go to prison just once I'm kidding, but Uh, it does something to you It might toughen you up a little bit. And so uh, we have that that that that thing in common there and so I don't have a hard time getting with somebody or talking with someone even if we disagree As a matter of fact, I'd rather you come tell me that you disagree and the cool part about this is this guys I put my email out there, right? And granted I can't always respond But when I saw brother bagani Pastor bagani emailed me I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to him Because that's really what you're supposed to do now I can't I can criticize somebody from a distance if I don't if I don't know them and we're talking about first of all Doctrine is always fair game Doctrine is always fair game If I think that you're teaching something that is wrong It's fair game because it's about the same thing that I'm teaching Now if a person disagrees There's two ways they can handle it Disagree Somewhere else or come talk to me Sometimes if you can't get a hold of me though, it'd be it'd be a little bit difficult Right, but he found a way to get a hold of me. And so we began dialogue. We began talking. So Uh, I found out y'all there's some things about I'm like I that ain't true That can't be true what you're saying that no, that's not the that's not the bagani. I know it So I want to talk I want you to talk a little bit about your um Your conversion experience because you said it happened in prison, right? Yeah, you know, um I agree that you and I we definitely have a kinship You know, um, they have been many channels throughout the year They have tried to get me to get an interview or some sort of statement And I didn't feel the connection but with you I felt the connection I was sentenced to nine years in prison. I got saved in prison While I was in prison a christian correctional officer began to preach the gospel to me the real unadulterated gospel Not this evangelical version version of it. That's that tends to be watered down like literally during my time there. He was in rikers island and when I went upstate God seemed to have sent me some christian correctional officers that spent an enormous amount of time trying to preach the gospel to me, you know, and And here's what people don't know, you know, this is why I love listening to your story because we're just so similar in some stuff but When I went to prison as you christ was not on the radar So it wasn't like a jailhouse religion thing as a matter of fact, I used to smoke weed in prison with bible paper All right, so I used to in the prison. I used to smoke weed with the bible paper So christ was not Literally christ was not You know, the bible says in romans chapter three that none seeks after god I was not seeking after god God was seeking after me one day after about maybe two years Going on three years into my prison sentence And I have no other way to explain it other than the way that it happened to me after being evangelized for quite some time And having this bible that was all ripped up and pages missing or whatever You know, what was interesting is that as I would read the bible while smoking it I would understand the gospel parables and its interpretation. So that's a whole other story there, you know One day, jesus christ came in myself That's the only way that I could explain it And I saw him standing right here while I was in prison downstate correctional facility 1992 all right He was standing right here and he said son, I want you to follow me and at that moment I became desperately aware of my total sinfulness I can't explain it to this day, but I knew that I was totally depraved And on my way to hell and that I actually deserved To be in prison now keep in mind I had been in prison from juvenile detention center all the way up to the age of 22. So from the ages of like 13 Um, I did all of that in prison all the way till about after After 21 and then I came home from doing so. I I only know prison life. I don't know street life too much I just know prison life. All right, so when I became aware of my sin Um, I repented right there now I didn't I didn't say a sinners prayer because obviously the sinners prayer is not a scripture Now the romans wrote is in scripture But all I knew was enough to repent and all I said was I lifted my hands and I said, okay. All right lord Jesus as I knew it was jesus. I said I repent I repent And as clear as day he was standing here now I could see what he looked like but I can't remember just like somebody standing here You know that they're there, but you can't explain his features and then he just merged into me And at that moment it felt like rivers of living fire. I can't explain it But it just was gushing all around me About two years later. I figured out what that was. That was the washing of regeneration the book of tithes chapter three talks about that But I didn't know that at that time. So instantly I was born again cigarettes pornography You know cursing everything 100% instantly left me and the bible that I had That was all ripped up. I began to just kind of devour it And from there I continued to live my christian experience and then shortly after that You know, I became an inmate pastor in the prison did the time worked under the under the chaplain And then eventually I kind of like was released But that's how I I got initially saved was I repented of my sin I believed in the finished work of christ on the cross. I remember confessing that lord I believe you resurrected from the dead, you know and I just can't explain other than that I know I was born again at that moment and from that point up until now 1992 I've been living for the lord. I got called to the ministry in prison, but we'll get into that a little bit later So that's my initial salvation repented experience My faith was in the scriptures with a little bit that I had I had enough to read it and get saved I was born again by repenting of my sin asking christ Believing his work on the cross the efficacy of that and I just instantly changed and I just can't explain it other than I'm a new creature in christ and here we are 30 years later. So I've been saved for 30 years What did you do? What did you do to get in prison? I got sentenced to burglary in the first degree kidnapping reckless endangerment of a family a held apartment hostage Robbery in the second degree and robbery in the first degree consecutively They were offering me 21 years in prison I walked into court one day and I heard a voice tell me take the nine years Just take the nine years, you know and I was on my way to trial I was on my way to trial with this case and then I just I don't know I just heard Uh a voice to tell me, you know just take the nine years and when I looked up I said who's talking to me when I looked up the word god in the courtroom That said in god we trust the word god shot out like rays of light and I just kind of knew You know, um that kind of god was talking to me now at that time. I wasn't christian I wasn't saved, you know, um and the moment I that I heard the voice say take the nine years My lawyer turned to me who was a paid lawyer. It says I'm going to try to get them to give you nine years You know, and so I just kind of knew That I'm just going to listen to this voice that's talking to me and so I got sentenced to uh nine years and um Yeah, so I got sentenced to nine years from 21 years So I think I think god had mercy on me because you know nine years is better than 21 years Well, you got a you got a better deal than I got. I was looking at two or three years and I got 20 so So Monday But I didn't have to do the whole the whole 20 One of the guys though that that I met in prison Who is just so diametrically opposed to how I thought and how I felt Became a real good friend of mine in prison He was as apostolic as apostolic can get Um, but both of us had a passion for sharing the gospel on the yard on the compound and Through a bible study that I was leading on on the compound brother laxie If you if you out there listening brother laxie used to owe me money from the last commissary, but He would come to the bible study And we would just he would just listen to the scriptures and he would he would he would have his differences And we would go through things and what's funny is that we began to get closer and closer and closer The reason why i'm saying this not not not not not not for you But for everyone else is that I can do one of two things He can do one of two things We can sit and stay on our on our perch and throw rocks at each other Or come down and actually kind of talk about you know what our differences is and and we're going to talk about a little of these guys So now am I getting ready to uh rake them over the coals and and Pagani you going to hell you this you that you I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that It would be first of all it would be cowardly and weak of me to to have spent time on the phone And email and text and this this brother and then get him on here and then stab him in a way that I didn't you know We're not gonna do that. Okay.  Cory, but in all fairness no one is above being held accountable I think the act of accountability is An expression of nobility. I don't mind being held accountable Let me have it man Like um, I love jesus too much But I understand what you mean in the sense of character and that we've had already this conversation But let me just kind of say this publicly that no one no one Not even your view is is above or exempt being held accountable for the things that they say publicly especially Um that are not congruent with the scriptures So the barians were more noble than any other city they searched the scriptures So I'm not and I told you this is the first time that I actually even met you on your channel I said you could take all my videos you have my permission to shred them Because no one is above being held accountable, especially if we love the lord, you know So I'm okay. I'm okay with any any questions you direct at me You know, even though I know what you mean in reference to that But I don't want anyone to think that you know that um that our personal Conversation is above actually holding someone, you know accountable, you know, we're just having a great dollar So I just wanted to throw that out that that like you, you know, you know We have tough we have tough skin here. We can we can handle it, you know We can handle we can handle the tough, you know confrontation It's okay. So that that being said Right the whole the whole deliverance ministry stuff, right all of that Now what's interesting guys is we actually started off on different side When I started off our church was doing deliverance minutes There there were people that were having demons cast out and so forth The being slain in the spirit the falling out and speaking in tongues over that was the church that I started off And I went this way he wasn't like that and then he went this way. So we you know, we we went different ways and so um When most people see Since most folks don't have had no clue about you know anything about about that sort of ministry that's sort of Of activity, right? They're gonna look at it like way to say that that don't that don't look right And they go to the scriptures and it's like well, well, I don't see how how this how this lines up and so Right, um How is it tell us how you got to and we'll talk more more specifics as we go But how did you get to a point to where you thought that? Deliverance ministries and the and the way you guys do it is the right way to do it Okay, so to give more insight into what pastor quarry is referring to is Me and ham have the same story. We just buy polar opposites He started out in deliverance and then gained a further understanding on the topic and kind of you know, according to his understanding I wouldn't say veered away, but he has his personal understanding Mines was different. You know, um, I was against deliverance. I used to preach against a christian having a demon I used to say people like pagani. This was back in 2004. I would do bible studies And my church I was a newly Installed pastor in a pentecostal at least at the time in a pentecostal denomination and the denomination in which I came from did not adhere to that a christian which was pentecostal, which is crazy I don't even know how that works, you know, but um, i'm a denominational baby which means I was born and bred in ministry within a denominational structure and I'm a graduate of biblical seminary, you know, I have the accolades in the The you know the the certificates on my wall, you know, and they trained me, you know, and even just a pentecostal culture You know didn't believe that a christian can have a demon So because I was faithful to what was being Taught to me and I was a new pastor and I lacked identity, you know And I was really much caught up with the with the commentaries of my peers and the social consciousness of pentecostalism at the time I preached against it. I literally did bible studies You know against uh, the pogot. Well at that time it wasn't really many much Ministries doing deliverance. It might have been just one or two ministries But I used to preach about it now. Here's where things changed for me pastor. Cory was when I first started pastoring um We didn't have the internet While I'm pastoring the internet came and then cell phones came now. I'm from the old school I'm not a I'm not a millennial. I'm not a gen z. I'm a generation x guy. I'm a 70s baby You see what I'm saying? So there was a time that when you wanted to look at pornography You had to go to the candy store and take a magazine and go all the way to the back and hide with your friends and look at the Look at the pornography now because of modern technological advancements now Pornography was coming to people's cell phones and the dynamic of my church the landscape of my church The social spiritual consciousness of the church changed drastically And I went from one of the fastest growing churches in the Bronx That I'm here to sound doctrine, you know in the Spanish church. It was called San Adoc Trina, you know legalistic ultra conservative Everybody all the men of the church started getting addicted to pornography And because I didn't know any better, you know, um, I did what I was taught I fasted more I prayed more I used to go to church every Sunday six o'clock in the morning service started at 12 in the afternoon And I would pray god. What is what is going on here? Like I'm doing the best that I can and these men are still enslaved You know, like what is going on and I just heard a still small voice said Explored deliverance and I remember telling god. No, I said, I'm not going to explore deliverance That is false doctrine not going down that path and on top of that I have a lot to lose if I go down that trail, but there's something about Compassion past the quarry. It's compassion Compassion for the sheep without a shepherd compassion Move me to be a little bit more flexible on a secondary topic I already knew that Christian having a demon was not a foundational essential doctrine that I was aware of I just I just had a belief system that secondary doctrine was just as important as primary doctrine But because I saw families men losing marriages Young people backsliding going into fornication. Um, I just said lord Okay, god, I'm gonna explore this deliverance thing. I'm against it lord, but I love people too much I love them too much. I'm gonna explore it lord So I'm gonna allow myself for you to teach me and let me touch up the past the quarry. It took me 10 years It took me 10 years to embrace that a christian could potentially Have a demon in an area that is unsubmitted to the holy spirit in an area that is completely given over to rebellion Where they have not repented I'm not talking about where they repented and they're working in, you know, working the flesh or crucifying the flesh That's something different. I'm talking about giving place to the devil according to the book of Ephesians chapter three So when I looked up that word, you know Place dwelling came in my mind and I just said, you know, god Okay, there has to be a difference between place and ownership and it's just dawned on me that Giving place does not mean owned by and that the word possessed doesn't mean owned by it means to have And then just logically in my mind, I said we're arguing over a homonym Which means the words sound the same But have different meanings. So when when when when I say a christian can possess a demon I don't mean owned by possess. I mean the other definition of it It means to have in an area that's unsubmitted to the holy spirit in willful disobedience or ignorance So once I began to explore that topic Doctrinationally, you know, it took me 10 years to embrace it because I just was not ready to embrace it And then after a couple of years of wrestling with one or two verses, it took me like 10 years to embrace one verse You know, then I began to explore. Okay. Let me pray for you and I literally started doing deliverance You know, uh, I just kind of took a chance, you know, I just took a chance I connected with another brother who kind of thrust me a little bit into it and said, yeah You know christian can have a demon, you know, and I we kind of paired up a little bit And I took that as an initiative to you know what? What can I lose? If I pop the hood of this car and see if there's something wrong, you know in the engine If there's nothing wrong with the engine, I don't lose just close the hood and keep it walking And I'm telling you once I began to explore this area We had some of the most outstanding Manifestations that I in the very beginning just say that it's not the devil that is you acting. This is fake. This is you Just is you wanting attention. I used to tell people, you know, and I had people crying in front of me saying pastor I'm not faking. I used to tell them you're faking it. This couldn't possibly be real Because I was still wrestling with this idea of christian couldn't possibly have a demon So when I just allowed myself to just be more compassionate and just realize whether I believe in a christian Can have a demon or not. It's not a salvation issue when I explored it a little bit more I could tell you some of the most craziest stories from some of the most mature christians and It just never stopped for me there. So that's kind of like so it's a mixture of doctrine and experience and I and I know that our listeners are not discounting experience because obviously experience does play a Role, but it's not my primary reason for changing. It's doctrine Compassion and experience that led me down this path to eventually 10 years later embracing it and now we're traveling all over the world teaching it but not preaching it Okay, but my my my experience was this I would see Coming, you know, when we're around all these different pentecostal and charismatic churches and these brothers and sisters, uh, there was always Just a desire to have some sort of outward expression some sort of experience a lot of a lot of emotionalism And what I've found is that Oftentimes when emotions get in emotions can make something unreal seem real Emotions can make something. Um, that's not there seem like it's there I mean look how many people have had someone that they thought they loved right Emotions can do a lot of things to you even when it comes to The bible and so what and one of the things kind of practically that I noticed was It seemed like not even seemed like every single person that had come down for some sort of deliverance Every single person that had uh, they said that that a demon was cast out of them That person uh on the day before And the day after right this this this demon being cast out They acted exactly the same No one no one could see any difference Just like you would see people at churches that don't do the these deliverance ministries That they would go down to the altar and they would get delivered And it's the same folks over and over and over getting delivers like wait a second And so what I did was I said, well, let me just look at the scriptures Because the one thing that's going to trump anyone's experience mine or yours or anyone else Is no matter how valid they seem or how or how loudly talk about it The scriptures have got to be the authority and so for me Because I didn't I didn't see it in scripture Meaning meaning this and we'll talk about this About a believer Being you know having having a demon and so forth or being possessed right now. I do believe this You cannot be a christian and not believe that there is no there's no such thing as demons. Yeah, you just you're not reading your bible But how does the demonic realm work? Clearly, um, they're not through with you because you place faith in christ. Okay. Well fine. We lost them But let's let let's let them get to the finish line limping so to speak And so I do believe that there is demonic influence But as to what degree and then not only that how do we deal with it? Because for me, I take a little different tack But I'm not saying it's a salvation issue, but I'm saying salvation affects the issue meaning this that Every person in the bible that had a demon or demonic encounter Were people who were not believers And then after the cross and then after the founding of the church Once the holy spirit came Then we don't see this anymore All we're told now to do is just pray resist And so because I believe this as jesus said who the who the sun said who the sun says free They're what they are free indeed. So there's something in us that will keep them out of us The holy spirit that's in us will keep the demons out of us now How we respond does that mean the demons don't don't there's no demonic activity? Sure I think I think the bigger battered bolder you are in christ the more you're gonna have the attention Of satan. I mean that just that but at the same time though at the same time Because we're not told I had a conversation with someone about Um, so people say you need to get baptized with the holy spirit. You need to get baptized with the holy spirit And I said, wait a second if everybody out here running around who's doing something Incorrectly or what have you are struggling They call themselves a believer, but they just need to get baptized with the holy spirit How come paul never said that how come paul never wrote the church of carinth or filipina said, you know what your problem is You need to get baptized with the holy spirit. He didn't say that right same with this They never said he never told you know timothy or or titus What you need to do is you need to start casting these these these demons out Rather what he told them is how to how to live How to resist the devil how to how to walk right because the spirit the holy spirit the result we call the fruits Um, but the actual the word carp us really just means the result The result of the spirit is how we're going to walk and so those things that we struggle with Be it porn different addiction and so forth whatever those things are the things that go away The more that we as if we do what what Ephesians 5 18 says if we Yield to the holy spirit if we're filled the more we're filled the less we have to deal with them And so that's my take on deliverance. That's how I see deliverance. That's how I The people that I've dealt with those that that have had their uh, these homosexual addictions We didn't you know what there wasn't a a a session or anything like that We just I said brother all I can do is direct you to the healer And the closer that they got to christ The less they had these attractions Right one of them one of them's married got kids now and didn't have them as far as I know I don't know what it's like now, but as far as you look at them now It's a totally different person one guy keep telling me about this uh, extremely, you know, I didn't prison extremely racist guy I'm talking about I was all kind of in words to him and Uh, after it was all said and done him being introduced to christ He's hugging me.  Blood in blood out. No, uh My I I give you some blood not mine, but he is and so he and he walked a yard confidently and they didn't mess with him Um, and so to see that to me that's that's That's what deliverance looks like um, and so They're going to be forced to hey wait a second.  Yes.  They don't spend time in prayer They don't submit themselves to god to therefore they don't resist the devil and therefore there's uh There's no fleeing but just because the emergency room is filled with a lot of hurting people who keep coming back the same day Doesn't mean that i'm just gonna Completely say this thing just doesn't this thing just doesn't doesn't doesn't work All right now as far as the james chapter 4 submitting yourselves to god resist the devil I believe that that verse is two fold is uh Defensive and offensive which means if you submit to god You resist the devil then there'll be no need for deliverance. That's ideally what we should be doing But then what about the opposite end when what happens when you don't resist the devil? What happens when you don't submit to god? What it should what's gonna happen? Well, the devil takes a place sitting. How do you get rid of it? It's not submitting yourself to god again and they're resisting again No, you got to cash that thing out. You have to renounce it. You have to tell it to go and then Put back in practice again The submitting yourself to god and resist the devil and he will free So I think we really both are saying the same thing which is looking at it from a different angle I think james chapter 4 is preventative if you're submitting already to god resisting the devil Then you're not going to need a pagani and a deliverance ministry But what about those who for some reason because people are people, you know, they don't resist the devil I mean and they don't submit to god What the devil's just going to walk away and be like, okay, I'm good, you know, the holy spirit is good No, there's an opposite end to that if you don't submit There's no fleeing. So then what if there's no fleeing. What is it? There's entering So remember, I just think that that verse is twofold ideally submit to god Resist the devil. He will flee no need to go to deliverance. But if you don't Obviously, you repent. Let me just say this to throw it out there for the folks I think I'm just Sensational you repent you come back to christ you get back in the world You kind of fix yourself and do what you need to do confess your faults to one another pray for one another But then there are some people I have the opposite end of the story pastor quarry I also well, let me rephrase that because folks get mad when you say I Christ through our ministry. I did help or we did help a lesbian just like you helped But she got set free through the ministry of deliverance and she's married Has two children and named the middle the middle child After me. So I have the opposite end the ministry of deliverance Help her get set free from lesbianism Not just prayer.  I'm the surgeon. I'm on a clinical doctor I'm a surgeon. You got a tumor. Come on.  I think we're working for the same We're doing the same thing. Let's just help people get delivered. It's just that it's just that when I say, okay The person has this issue And I say Satan flee First of all, why why why would he listen to me? What it what is it about my voice? That Whether I think the power would come from would be the holy spirit that would be in me And so whatever the issue is it's still got it's still got to be That the more of him the great the greater of him in me as he says the greater he does in me than he does in the world And so, um, I I see the passage Differently, you know submit yourself there for the god resist the devil and he will flee I think that's before during and after I think that's um as you're new in christ I think that's as as you're because the The will doesn't stop spinning and so I don't care if you've been a believer for a week or for uh four decades Uh, it's still going to be hard. There's there's there's there's still a push And so the more you submit to him Right to god, uh The more you yield to the spirit the more he is going to flee And I think that's in in everything with ever with with whatever the the addictions are and so I can I if y'all don't mind I want I want to put stuff on the screen real quick. Um Let me let me put this on the screen real quick. I want to throw a passage up If I hit it right I hit it wrong. Uh dog on it. Cory Where is the Oh, I think that's it. No Oh, there it is. Okay. Okay pushing the wrong button. I'm sorry But so james 513 is anyone among you suffering let him pray Uh, and so I think I think that's a start Pray is it is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him Um anointing him with oil in the name of the lord And and the prayer of the faith will save the one who was sick and the lord will raise him up And if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. And so I think this That the power of prayer Um is more than because I this this is the danger now now you you need to help us out When we see it it comes across as That there's less power in the holy spirit And what god has done in the person's life And more power in the person laying hands on the person more power in the person saying uh get out or come out That's that's how it comes across. Why wouldn't it be just enough for just the holy spirit? Just the holy spirit is in him this person growing why what? That that's that's the issue that I've had and that's the issue that other folks have had that It looks like there's more emphasis on the people who are who are leading these ministries Versus um the holy spirit it almost makes the holy spirit Uh to us seem as though the holy spirit has taken a back seat to the person who's laying hands on someone Well in all fairness that's in any ministry in the church whether you even a pastor whether you're a singer whether you are a missionary um any person that is leading any particular ministry can sometimes do what Demetrius did in second john want to have the preeminence over of the brother and so To pigeonhole and just say that just deliverance ministries are doing that. No, you got regular You got cessation a list doing that as well that are you see more them and they're head knowledge Then you do christ from their heart knowledge So we can't sit here and just say that deliverance ministries do that now Can I agree with you on that? Yes, there are a lot of deliverance ministries that do Um boast they have uh, they do Make the people uh dependent upon their ministry. Why because dysfunction is a lucrative business, you know But that's in that's in every sector of the church, you know, so because Pastors do that. I'm not going to like Like like not go to church as a result of that, you know, I think pastor Cory the issue is Uh, maybe the deliverance ministries that you've encountered maybe they are like that not all of them are like that But yes, can I agree with you that many are like that? Absolutely. Yes, but so are pastors so are singers It's it sounds like not saying you but it just sounds like the same excuse that unbelievers say of why they don't go to church Like I ain't going to church because every pastor's like this or like that No, like go to church anyway to see them saying so, you know, I don't want to embrace deliverance because every deliverance minister Is making it seem like the sufficiency is on the deliverance minister and not on christ But let me just publicly say this just so that people can know where I stand My sufficiency is in christ alone by faith alone in the scriptures alone Jesus is the authentic deliverer not the deliverance minister. It's not about pagani. It's all about christ now I can't get mad at you if if when you that are watching if you see our videos and then think like it's all about you Then the issue is not me. It's bad editing It's bad editing and wrong choice of uploading videos Because my wife told me that she said you need to upload more christ glorifying videos because they think that you only Talk about and glorify the devil and this goes back to what you and I are talking about so I think it's just a personal preference pastor quarry. Maybe these particular deliverance ministers And and in all fairness, I invited you to come see me conduct deliverance. I'm not saying that you backed out I invited you. I said i'm in your town Be my guest because I wanted you to see Christ crucified real deliverance done that leads people to christ and not to the person because my message That night was false holy spirit in the pews I redirected that that that message straight to christ So for anybody to be in the house that day to say this brother's trying to take the glory Then I just think that they just have an issue with my bronx personality and they just have an issue with It's not so much. I'm not saying that a person Because even at the church that I was at they were doing it I don't I don't think that they were being intentional In any way. I really don't as a matter of fact still love these people I think I think that if a person has doctrine wrong Uh, then he can go anywhere a mo especially if a motion gets in if they see things incorrectly So walk me through this for a second. Let's say I come to you And I'm struggling with something and I've tried and it's just it's it's been like a stronghold What at what point would you decide that I that that it's a demon and then it needs to be cast out And then how do you do it? Okay, number one and I and this is a conversation that we had off the air So let's I think this is great that we're talking about Deliverance is not the first option when you come to our church Deliverance is the last option the number one option or the first lane we have a troubleshooting that we do number one How's your discipleship and your word game and your prayer life? Is it that in order before we even consider that this could potentially be a demon? All right, so most of the time when we Question them and really take them through that process. It doesn't even lead to a deliverance session And that's what I think I think I shared with my wife that made you think second guess because you come to our church You don't just come to our church demanding a deliverance. Why? Because How do we even know it? It really is a demon. Maybe it's just you number one So we have to find out are you born again? Like if you're not born again, you need to get saved before we even go further All right, so the discipleship part is are you a born again Christian? Have you repented of your sin is Christ alone sufficient for the only means of your salvation if they say yes Now I can't sit here and say my brother. I don't know about that, you know, show me fruits Now if you remember my church show me fruits But if you're just coming for prayer, I ain't got no time to ask you show me fruits I'm gonna have to take your word for it second. Okay. When a person a Christian admits, you know pastor, I haven't I haven't been taking control or whatever the case may be We lead them through repentance repent for your laziness your lukewarmness your carnality, you know, whatever the case may be All right, but when they say that they haven't and then they say I'm still getting these thoughts That are uncontrollable and I can't stop now I'm entertaining the idea that they could be dealing with a stronghold which means a habitual pattern Which is why I told you I don't use the term generational curses I use hereditary sins and maybe we could get into that a little bit later because I think it's just word semantics that we're arguing about here All right, so when a person feels that they have a particular habit pattern that they cannot stop Now I'm entertaining the idea of Okay, we might have to pray for this person according to what you just read confess your faults to one another Okay, what have you been doing? How's your life been second helping them take control and casting down every imagination and putting it into the obedience of christ That requires me to help them. That's not me glorifying them Glorifying myself saying put your faith in me that then that makes no sense because pa James just said confess confess your faults to one another So if it was like that if I confess my faults to my brother and my brother decides to pray for me That's not him glorifying himself and taking away the sufficiency of christ. I'm obeying scripture So i'm praying with them helping with them now after we've done those two And then they come back and I send them on their merry way if they come back and said pastor I'm doing all these things and yet I have a persistent thought in my brain That is continuously pushing through to do this thing that is against scripture Now well right now we're also entertaining. This is something new and this is a whole different topic now I'm entertaining the idea of mental mental illness, but that's another topic for another day Can I think people sometimes really deal with mental illness now? That's something we're exploring in our church now But primarily the third option that I would do pastor curry is well, let's pray and let's see if it is a demon 99% of the time It's a demon. You know, I got them on video. They're all over facebook You know like it's a demon now whether it's real or not My wife doesn't let me post some of the more outlandish ones She said that one's good for facebook the other ones don't do this because they might blaspheme the holy spirit I've seen some crazy stuff from people now have I myself At that point in seeing some of the more outlandish things that I go Have I questions a person's salvation? Yes Are some of them maybe not a christian? I would say yes the city and say they're all christian No, there might have been somebody that slipped through church culture and got all the way to the demonic part And then I realized and say to myself, I don't even think this person is really born again Do I have that? Yes, but that's how I would consider it if the last logical answer after you've done everything You know to do right and the thought is still there. You could potentially be dealing with a spirit Whose primary function is that particular area? But I'm not the type to run around and call demons by the names some deliverance ministers do that I sometimes do that But I don't do that because I think it's sensational for me. It's not one of the methods that I particularly use I just cast them out, you know and people They get relieved. So, you know Well, so I'm hearing this and I've heard this before And so it's like what do you do after having done all those things? And so the first thing I think of to me that it just comes to my mind Is a fusion six and says after having done all all you can do to stand You know keep standing keep pushing AT tells us how to kind of gird ourselves up and I want to I want to I'm a some of you guys who aren't You know familiar with me you guys on the on the channel for me with me how I do I want to just kind of just just this is me a practical way of going from here to here to here. All right I'm going from here to here to here. Here's what I mean. There's some passages out there that for example in Psalm 72 4 matter of fact, let me let me put on the screen Psalm 72 4 I want to if I could there it is. I want to put this on the screen. I want you guys to see what I'm looking at Matter of fact, I should have typed it in first Psalm 70. I think it's 72 4 And I want to show you how how kind of how I I Is this the right one? Yeah, there it is Ah, I got to get my little screen together Yeah, all right, let me put on the screen so you guys can see with me. I don't want to just just say it but in Psalm 72 4 says may he May he definitely make this a bigger it's just so y'all can see May he defend the cause of the poor Of the people give deliverance To the children of the needy and crush the oppressor. Well, obviously the the word that's there That we can focus on in English is going to be this this word here deliverance And then in Ephesians one It's the only time that really the the word deliverance is actually there in is one of the few times I should say in the new testament that the word Deliverance or the word that means deliverance is in the new testament And this is what's interesting about that word. And this is why I say it's good I can go from here to here to here Is because when I look at this word here in deliverance over on the right hand side This is the Hebrew and the word for this this word deliverance in Hebrew Is the word yoshia The word for deliverance in the greek in Ephesians one Is the the greek word for satirion So terein is the word is where we get the word satiriality or salvation This right over here for deliverance yoshia is where we get the word also for uh, he saves Or the lord says also for salvation the reason why i'm saying that guys Is for this reason Because if I know what true deliverance is i'm saying that true deliverance is jesus And that when he comes in this is me this me going from here to here if I want to be set free If I want deliverance true deliverance comes from knowing who yoshia is or yashua or yasus or the satirian or or true salvation I believe the true salvation brings about True deliverance And in doing so if I know so and my heart has changed you don't want to do I'm gonna this is where the hand part comes in i'm going to share the gospel I'm going to share christ because I have seen Through through his spirit through god People being set free. I've seen marriages put back together.  He's showing the gospel with guards. And so for me That's what I think that that that that true deliverance is and that when they get that Even though it might be a struggle because everybody on the planet. I don't care who you are I don't care who you are The day you die, there's going to be at least one struggle Maybe that one struggle won't be as great as it used to be But there's going to be something you're not going to go the rest of your life sinless And I'm not saying that you have to sin. I know someone put a video out Cory might understand that you must sin. That's not what I'm saying If you say that delete your entire social media account. It's not what I'm saying I'm saying that we will um at some point in time And when we do it's not the first time we did that sin And so there's always going to be the struggle now our mind has changed about the sin That's what repentance is repentance is not changing from the actual act is changing from the thought about the act I don't I don't regard sin any the same way. I used to it bothers me I might still get angry at somebody They're gonna bother by that. I might still want to I I wanted to punch somebody today I wanted to punch them today and I got bothered with that I might not somebody might lie somebody might cuss somebody might lust somebody whatever and it bothers me Lord help me with that, right? We see this and here's here's the reason why here's here's how God Through our sins takes our sins and helps us in our sin deliver someone else. You're ready for this Y'all pay attention because this is good. This is how it works for me. This is how it worked for you You did not get saved. You did not come to christ off of a billboard You did not you came to christ out of looking at the practical workings of the lord in somebody's life Let's say you a prostitute and you know who's best to take you out of that prostitution ring Probably someone who you can identify with let's say you got a you you an angry person someone else in the same boat Somebody in prison can talk to you about what it's like being delivered from prison, right? People who have certain commonalities are you with me? And so if I've gone through something So right now when I when I was locked up You know who I can now identify with you know who I could reach now as God is bringing me up Other inmates who are down and so now they're down and God is using God is bringing me up God is literally delivering me Guess who else is being delivered the same folks that are watching me that are having the same struggles This guy's in a gang this other guy used to be in a gang can go to him talking This guy was struggling with drugs and was delivered from that He can go and talk to someone else who was struggling with drugs And so as he is getting delivered as he's moving so with someone else And so that's why I think practically by knowing his word it taking root in your heart And then you apply it I think that that's how people actually get delivered not ultimate deliverance Ultimate deliverance comes from the day that we go and join Christ forever But until then we're still going to have these these these battles now And I get it because let's just let's let's be honest. I don't care how good this gets I don't care how good I make my points or how good you make your points We're still going to leave here a lot of us. Yeah, these guys are here. It takes these guys are run He's got you right. It's still gonna happen I'm reading I'm reading the chat room and listen nothing I said has changed their mind. I'm like I could tell it be young. I could tell it be young because mature people that are older will be like, you know What I don't I'll agree with you, but you make some sense old man. Here's what it is pastor Cory I'm okay. We put the Bronx here. It's okay. Yeah, because you know what now Let's say this and this this was something that uh that we talked about earlier off off camera that If nothing else can happen And I mean this guy. I mean I really mean this and some of you guys don't get this some of you guys Hold on. I'm about to get another soapbox that has nothing to do with deliverance ministry It just has to has to do with just being mature as Christians We're the only with with the worst group on the planet that doesn't deal with disagreement. Well, we don't Man, listen Christians will cuss another Christian out quicker than we would a muslin We mistreat each other Worse than we would treat a buddhist a hindu, right? It's it's it's it's weird It's like we respect the fact that they're not Christians more than respect the folks who profess the chris I don't I don't know what that is now granted. We have some deep differences. That's fine But you can disagree and still hook you can disagree and still love somebody you can disagree with to call somebody up You can disagree with somebody so I'm gonna pray for you we I'm not saying people don't come to christ because that's not true people don't come to christ for other reasons But we give them some valid reasons to point at us and so my point is this when we leave the day I I'm I'm like and still say, you know what? Uh, I still don't see a point. Uh, ghani on on this deliverance stuff. He goes like core You know what? I I you're missing me on this, but you know what we are we're still brothers And somebody's somebody's upset that I call up a ghani a brother Listen, let me tell you something what you just said about First, let me say this, you know an unfairness of you know in this debatable kind of conversation You said I think the whole the whole thing of here here and here that's a method. That's no different than the sinner's prayer That's just how you view it according to how god revealed it to you But it's not wrong. It's really not wrong. The issue is this is um That on my end everything that you just said we preach Except that I don't highlight that on my channel because like I said I'm already at the tail end. I'm not going from the beginning. So when people say You're not giving them christ. How do you know that? I'm just giving you the end of the method of how I helped someone I didn't say that I didn't I don't say those things. I actually do point people to christ Except that I don't highlight them in my video.  I didn't hear you say yet. It is implied it is implied That's what we say in every step before we get to the demon Christ Christ Christ Christ Christ there Okay, now let me let me do that down yo those of you Let me I want to I want to I want to put a pause on this. I want to pause on this we'll come back in a second because Something that y'all y'all won't believe this y'all let me go. Let me go to screen. Y'all won't believe this but God he said some stuff to me and I wasn't calling him alive. I'm not thinking he's like what hold on say it again because that didn't wait so Do you believe in eternal security? 100% I do and you believe in election 100% I do see this is what made me. I let me ask you again. Let me ask you again You believe in internal security just for the just for the record of everybody watching. I'm not Pentecostal I have the Pentecostal experience, but I'm not Pentecostal in the sense of the legalism and the Extreme Pentecostalism and the fanaticism. Oh, I left that a long time ago, you know, my mind is a lot more broader I do believe in election. I do believe that I'm eternally secure until Christ comes I know for a fact that when Christ comes, I'm good. It's not a seven sons of schever thing I know for a fact. No one can pluck me out of his hand No one and I'm kept by the power of God unto salvation Like I like yeah, so that's kind of like where I stand So this is why I mean you agree with on a lot of things But I I'm spirit failed and I pray and I was picking tongues. All right Okay, so so This is this is You don't usually meet people who believe in deliverance ministries like this but also believe in eternal security once they've always saved or election, right? That's just like wait a second. It's almost like an African Korean, right? Who speaks Mexican or speak Spanish? It's just it's just weird, right? You don't you don't see that. What's that little it was a I think it was a Skittles commercial Something like that where they just they put two things together that don't really goes like wait a second So now here's here's my struggle though because again, like I said guys I told you I might have implied to you that there's a lot of things that we can that we agree with them There's some things that we disagree with and I'm thinking I'm not seeing but there's a lot of things we do agree with now what's kind of Making funny on the inside is Is that let me hold this right here I won't respond somebody just saying but what's what's what's what's getting me is that if If you believe that a person does not lose their salvation and that they're that they are that you believe in election What happens if this Christian who won't lose a salvation and won't and won't and has been elected? What happens if they don't get delivered? If they don't if they don't if you know any if you know everyone or anyone else ever cast this demon out What happens to that person? Nothing they go to heaven when they die, you know Being bound doesn't eliminate anyone from being saved, you know, like this is like again I think we're wrestling with this the salvation thing again the salvific sense nothing happens, you know most Christians Most Pentecostal Christians don't believe in deliverance themselves and love the Lord And they are doctrinally born again and saved when Christ comes or the Lord calls them home Nothing happens their body goes to the dirt the demon goes and gets reassigned somewhere else. I don't know how that works I don't even care, you know, but I know They are saved, you know, so the idea of person needing deliverance Holding them back from salvation. I don't know like like I don't know what people are arguing about about the salvation thing You're saying alright, so You know, I don't know how I don't know how to answer that question because it's something that I'm exploring Myself, but all I know is that I've been born again. I'm eternally secure and because I'm eternally secure I choose to remain saved by allowing the Holy Spirit to walk up my salvation Experience through my life, which means I'm gonna live right not for the sake of works But because the sake that he lives in me and he crucifies this flesh and I carry this expression out therefore giving me the security of my soul my salvation now I Don't know what to add. I don't know how to answer that because this is just we'll get into another argument on stuff You know, this is the reason why I ask the question If a person has been been elected you believe a person been elected and that they will not lose their salvation Then it seems to me that there would never be a need for that type of deliverance ministry Since Jesus said that that his very reason Luke 4 18 When he says that he's been anointed preach and to set free the captives basically to deliver them Then he is going to do just that and so when in in a flipping he says that that he who began a good working you He's faithful to completing which also includes all of the things that you're dealing with all the trash in your life Granted, no one is going to be sinless in their life But they should sin less the more they live their life And so it would seem to me that just their natural walk and this I think this is the failure of the church So also this is the failure of the church and the body because let's say by the way guys This is why we all need to be part of a body. This is why we all need to be Accountable one to another because let's say I'm struggling Right, but last year I wasn't struggling. I was I was up here. I was doing good this year. I'm down here No one knows no one knows because I had not been associating with them. They have not been associating with me and so I Need help my listen just like every part of my body There's a reason why the analogy in the Bible is of as a human body There's not one part of my body that is self-sustaining not one part There's nothing in my body that can sustain itself and take care of itself Can't do it if I cut my right hand my right hand can't heal itself. It's gonna eat my left hand that dirt Yeah left and right so if that's the case, it's the same with us the problem is though when someone is struggling is that The I think the real method that God has to help someone to get deliverance is through the other parts of the body So let's say Michelle or Terry are struggling then Sheila and Amy can come along and say, okay, sis We got you and they can walk away. We don't do that We don't force ourselves to be accountable to other people and we don't make ourselves make up for to be Accountable us. We don't do that anymore. We kind of let live and let live let them say now not me Not listen if I know you ever come and talk to you, right? I'll get in your business I don't care you get you came with me. I can fight so I'm not I'm not scared about that But we'll see where you are and I think most people actually do appreciate that Most people appreciate someone being in their lives now not the gossipy people not the person's gonna hate y'all Because you know we do sometimes in church We we open up a gossip session with prayer y'all let's pray for sister so and so, you know cuz She out there tipping around, you know, you know, we do some time again in church Not that because nobody Christians or unbelievers can appreciate that But they will appreciate someone who holds their trust and confidence and say listen sister brother We need to talk we got you know and who will pray with them not just pray for them because we do hey I'm gonna pray for you now. Don't pray for me. Pray with me And when they see that that helps people get delivered that helps people cuz somebody anybody all the folks in the chat Know of at least one time where someone person helped them through And when I say help them through deliver them through something and so since we are we are brothers and sisters and We are supposed to be here for one another We don't and so there's a fundamental breakdown in the body And so what God has ordained to be the method for true deliverance we don't do it anymore and so when someone is struggling and they keep struggling I Think me the reason why this happens because we haven't seen the other way working There should always be somebody in the church a counter to somebody else There's always be a number or some of that To push back the they are the other way does work You know, you're just gonna have to agree to disagree with them on that point brother a brother Corey second thing Let me go back to what you just said You're still viewing things from a salvific point of view. All right, and that's okay You know say that I get that's kind of like where you're at. All right, you know Jesus came to set the captives free is both two-fold one initially from the slavery of sin Jesus said he that sins is a slave to sin and therefore he came this that's John chapter 8 Therefore he came to set the captives free Luke chapter 5, which is a reference of Isaiah chapter 61. All right, ideally positionally salvation, all right practically Deliverance as well. So at this point, it's just you don't like Because you said the same thing twice and we just we just answered that question with the last time So I think you adhere to a method that is proven to work for you based on what you have seen I have seen the other side Corey. I have seen the other side now We both have seen the extremes on both sides as well to sit here and say you haven't seen the extremes even with the word base or whatever That'd be that'd be an accusation. You know saying we're saying that we're basically saying the same thing Also, let me correct something that I said and here's he's gonna get you mad a little bit Corey is let me let me correct what I said I believe in internal security not one save always save. I believe in internal security. That's almost like my drinker What? Oh, man? Okay, all right, what was the difference? I just told you I got a trail past the Corey This break is sponsored by my coach water mug. Let me just take a sip to get it in through me off I just had to refine that I just have to refine that, you know, all right, so yeah, I just had to fix that little part there Yeah, so going back to what you just finished saying this is the second time you're saying it It's just personal preference on this particular method I find that method to be the most effective. I just haven't counted out the method of the ministry of deliverance That's where you said we don't have to do that anymore I beg to differ at times we do have to do that when if and when it's needed now Is it exaggerated within evangelical churches? Yes. Well, we're not an evangelical churches The evangelical churches don't do deliverance. Is it is it is it is it abused in some more some of the more smaller Loose and cult type evangelical churches that you know kind of just don't have don't adhere to sound doctrine Just a lot more legalism and you know extreme Sensationalism yes, yes, but because I saw the bet because I saw botched surgery doesn't mean I'm not gonna do surgery like I'm like, you know, and it's all and all surgery because I'm using metaphors and similes All surgery points to the great surgeon, which is Christ himself leading them to him And here's what I tell people all the time my goal as a deliverance minister when you invite me to Do deliverance or schools of deliverance? And I think this is a perfect time to kind of go into that You know saying is so that you never have to come back again I keep telling people all the time if you come back to me you didn't put in practice of what I told you of letting your sufficiency be in Christ alone and Submitting to God and resisting the devil something is wrong and it's something you're doing all right So just to let everyone know that at this point, you know, it's I agree with you and then then we just disagree It's just the method you I get it. I get it.  What do you mean by that? Okay schools of deliverance is no different than taking the years of expertise that I know in the area of deliverance not Inconducting deliverance, but in how to train people to be able to be a Effective deliverance minister. That's not sensational. That's not demon conscious. That's not Christ-glorifying. That's not word centers That's not cross-focus, you know Sometimes people need to be trained in that according to Hebrew chapter 5 verse 18 where it says who through training Have their senses to be able to distinguish between right and wrong Which means it's no different than we go to Bible schools that they can help us to be more effective pastors They don't teach us to be pastors Bible school don't make you a pastor It just teaches you how to be more of an effective pastor. So when we do schools of deliverance, at least when I do them It's not to people get delivered deliverance is free. We don't charge Now I don't charge for my time. None of that stuff. My schooling didn't come free You know all of my schooling and graduating all of that so that stuff cost me So I don't give it for free because I didn't receive it free salvation I got for free deliverance sessions offer free schooling and training is not like that's it So when we train somebody I'm just giving them the do's and don'ts and then I help them Go back to your churches and be a blessing to your churches and hopefully your pastor lets you Open up a deliverance ministry that can help the church in that. So that's kind of like what we do How do you okay, how do you teach somebody to do it? I mean what what I'm not saying, you know, give away your methods on over here. What have you but I mean I'm not I don't mind giving away my methods. We do four sessions number one What is deliverance number two how to identify a demon number three? Um effective deliverance, which means leading people back to scripture leading Some of the stuff should be taught by their pastors, but their pastors don't teach sound doctrine So I have to teach it. All right. And then number four the do's and don'ts of deliverance Like what not to do? Don't be so deep like we just finished saying the demon conscious the sensationalism the talking of five hours for demons and stuff like that That doesn't glorify christ and make deliverance look very very bad We train people to do that like we just train people people to invite me I just came back from chattanooga Doing it and when I went out to dial us that I invited you They sent me they I was training people that's what I wanted you to see and I guarantee you if you You would have came away saying, you know, this is all right I don't agree with it But I can see how balanced this is and how christ glorifying he is trying to make it become You know, so that's kind of like what we what we do But ultimately it's the holy spirit through the believer Doing all of that stuff like you can't dictate what the holy spirit does and I'm aware what matthew chapter six says Don't prearrange what you're gonna say for the spirit of god We'll tell you what to say exactly what you're gonna say at that moment Yes, but some but why isn't it working for some people? Because that they just they just haven't been told don't do that Don't do this do this do that. So that's what we do What makes a demon come out Using the name of jesus christ plain and simple I regardless of if your viewers don't believe in mark 16. I believe in mark 16 Cast out demons in my name. That's it when it is a demon when it really is a demon I use the name of jesus no power in and of myself power in the name of christ that that's where the the the breakdown of the confusion comes from is because If saying the name of jesus Um is enough But the spirit of christ isn't enough that that's kind of where it's like wait a second wouldn't wouldn't a person having the spirit in him Be more than enough than someone saying it and just saying in jesus name because see now Now this is what I what I what I teach is that The name either epianomo or however, I would say it The uh the phrase theology Is that it's not saying that you that it's these words like people pray and they say in the name of jesus Like like in the name of jesus actually means something like it's a like it's it's it's hope not It's after jesus is not a ritual Yeah, it it means it's not an incantation. Is that it literally means, you know According to on the authority of and so why would me saying this? Or pronouncing it do do any more be any more effective than actually having um him in me Cory Here is where we at again. Okay We're at the same crossroads again. You're saying the same thing different ways that i'm answering the same thing In different ways. I'm trying to get understanding. I'm trying to live. I'm trying to Cory this conversation is not for understanding. We have both made up our minds We're just having great dialogue and showing people how to have great dialogue and be in disagreement Yeah, you're not going to change your mind and i'm definitely not going to change my mind because I used to preach against it I'm not going to preach against it embrace it then renounce it again and go back like I am ready to stand before god to give an account for the ministry of deliverance and i'm good.  What how do you how do you determine it? Well, well number one if he's charging for the very act itself is a huge red flag for us because freely as we have received So freely give so if they're charging um, or second if they're making up these extra canonical Things like deliverance seeds sold 30 dollars to get set free from 30 demons You know some of that stuff is new age sensationals not christ glorifying So a huge red flag for me is number one is new age practices guys as christ uh christian Christian methods a number one Is the act the actual act of charging number three is and number three really should be number one is Do I see the fruit of christ? Do I see the fruit of the spirit being manifested in this person's? Like do they exemplify the humility that comes? from from christ Included in that is is there a direct intention of guiding them back to the person of deity of christ himself Like I said before I know your viewers don't know this because they only see the deliverance videos But we are consistently pointing people to Christ he is the deliverer All right, so and I don't mean just saying the name of jesus and doing that ritualistic stuff and just slap a bunch of jesus on it I mean literally guiding people to the person of christ jesus is god manifested in the flesh jesus christ has come into flesh all of that Stuff christ senate also a huge red flag for me is this which is in all of our schools of deliverance At least mass deliverance events that they invite me to preach in if there's no salvation message being preached where people could get Born again and repent of their sin annex christ To be savior not in the sinners prayer version of it because that's not in scripture You know, but but ideally repenting and believing in the finished work of christ where there's an actual renouncing of a sinful lifestyle and allowing christ to rule and reign in them Now I don't follow them home to know whether they're carrying this Decision that they made out some people end up attending our church But i'm just believing that the holy spirit is going to guide these people To find good solid biblical christ senate cross focus Doctrionally sound Sound churches. All right, so those are those are a little bit huge Red flags for me another another red flag for me is they're not part of a local christian community of other believers holding them accountable If they're isolated by themselves My red flag goes cult leader cult leader cult leader because what we are held accountable to um Be to one another within the context of christian Christian community now I don't mean in the sense of going to a church building right now because we are in a pandemic and the rules have changed Just a little bit because people are still afraid to go back to church or whatever So I don't adhere to you need to be at the building But you need to be congregating you need to be known of a brethren You need to be connected to a local body that's holding you know holding you accountable Another huge red flag for me if they're married. How's your married life? You know, how how do you treat your kids?  You know saying so there's a bunch of stuff, you know that I could kind of I could kind of look for and then ultimately is If there is narcissistic self-centered domineering behavior that is that is pointing towards them in almost everything or Pointing towards the benefits of like just the anointing, you know, I'm not into like just follow the anointing follow mentioned That's that's that's extreme sensationalism Point me to the anointer, which is christ christ himself see them saying so those are some of the things That will cause a red flag for me to go I don't know and then I guess the last one would be And this is what I told you is We have held some deliverance ministers out there accountable and they have rejected Our counsel and usually in moments like that I back off because now you're not letting iron sharp and iron and you're not Allowing brothers or sisters to hold you accountable in your doctrine to help you better Exemplify more christ glorifying deliverance ministry and not this crazy spooky stuff that goes on That's a huge red flag for me and trust me We have done it and you'd be surprised that a lot of people don't listen to our counsel because Deliverance is a lucrative business okay, um We talked about uh, one of your um One of your one of your friends Okay, let me let me let me go to your let me go to your your page too because I haven't Maybe he's watched I'm not sure but but you you said he you said he said and and I and I did I went in hard on on on Pagani. I'm not Pagani on um On I say it's out of our yes, you did Now I'm gonna say that I that I thought that I did I won't say okay a fair job Maybe I was harsh But I said and I guys I I told a brother we got it said listen do me a favor. I do this convince me That I was wrong or that I went too hard on on uh on salivar and I had the uh, if you all saw the video The opening of the video. I'm I'm I'm calling my wish doctor.  I'm not sure but but I'll let you Convince me that I that I was wrong for that Okay first, let me just throw out a disclaimer. I already convinced you off the air. All right I already convinced you off the air. No, you you're making some inroads Okay, number one, let me let me let me first before we get into the doctrinal stuff Let me just let me just kind of first say this, you know, um You know, um, it's there's a difference between falsehood and error You know when you say false Which doctor it's no different than when the other young man That you bought on your channel called you a wolf that is a slander of your cat of your character that implies That you're intentionally out to deceive There's a big difference than being in error and sincerely wrong in your error But genuinely believe you're doing the right thing. We find that in the apostle paul's life He genuinely thought he was doing something for the god of abraham isaac and jakeb And then god said hey you're kicking against the pricks here. All right so so when you say when people say this brother's a A false teacher, you know saying false implies intentionally intentionally deceiving but you took it Pasacori you took it To the next the next level. Okay, you straight said he was a witch doctor And that let me just emphatically say that is 100 percent natural It's one thing to disagree with his methods for deliverance or maybe his personality of style because he's a lot younger And he has the energy and people kind of get you know They get kind of caught up with the zeal or whatever the case may be or maybe Of some of the topics that he addresses.  He had a true authentic born-again experience. So one, he's authentically saved. He's not a false brother to Um, all right. So he has this ministry of deliverance. Okay. I have this ministry, you know of deliverance His style is different than mine's but to imply that he's a witch doctor and that he's making the people Look to him like I like I watched the video past the quarry You know, you made some you made at least three or four heavy accusations and I said, whoa I did, you know, and one of those accusations I could I could understand accusations that you say, you know, I don't agree with his teaching The teaching could be false. That's different. But when you imply somebody's a false teacher Whoa, there's a different ballgame there different ballgame there. All right, you went on to say number one And that he was looking to draw attention to himself anybody that knows Isaiah knows that he's the exact opposite He is 100 the exact opposite. He is the more christ-loving guy in the whole group of all four of us I'm the confrontative guy the rest of them. They have their own personalities This this man genuinely loves loves the lord. All right. Is he completely convinced of deliverance?  Corey in that regard Maybe not in the doctrinal part in that regard and I said, oh the last thing was Corey I don't know if you noticed this but I think you probably noticed now is your demeanor and your mannerisms Oh, he was very very very very angry like I I've heard you come against various teachers And it's usually christ-loving and you know and sometimes there's some christian satire there amen You know, I don't even take myself that service have christian satire with me. Amen It doesn't it doesn't bother me but in that particular video the one with the witch doctor It was a personal offense and not only that cori I've heard you say That you have an issue. I don't know if you change your stance on this you have an issue saying that you have an issue with 30 some things and under Isiah's young, you know me i'm 47 like I could rock with you isiah's young see them saying so It made it seem like not only did you have an issue with just the whole thing But on top of that he he's part of that group that you said i'm not into them them young cats You know, so it made it appear like there was a personal Vendetta and I it in his eye I know it looked like a personal vendetta because there's four of us past the cori That's past the vlad past the vlad does a lot more doctrine than I do and a lot of his stuff of anything You got a lot.  No You haven't done a video. You just did one. You did a video on just him Unjust him you know saying I said Oh, so that was the first thing that I had to Address with you if we were to move on in a relationship because I felt That it was character assassination and it was borderline slander and it was very un christlike I think he might have got caught up at that season that month There was a lot going on with marcus rogers and a lot of there was just a lot going on And I think that video was released in the heat of that moment And I think you released it and I'm just here to tell you it's done a lot more damage than good I'm just telling you And on top of that you went on to say about the nephilim You know and I'm gonna be very honest with you There are a lot of theologians that I'm connected to and a lot that we're connected to And I'm not saying it to make you look bad. It's not bad It was laugh they even they said it was laughable about that the nephilim is men of god that turn Away into wickedness because that's a relatively new idea All throughout the ancient church all the way up until now they primarily believed it was angels, you know So it made you or your channel Be a bit in disdain with those that are theologians because they're like Even they didn't agree fully like okay, kari. You're kind of stretching it there. So I was like man this video Okay, is this Biblical truth or is it personal slander and that's when I unsubscribe and I backed off and I didn't return again until The video that you did with the wolf The guy that called you a wolf and even when I jumped in that chat room because it was trending Even I never called you a wolf and I don't disagree. I disagree with you in many of your Compadres and your comrades that are in your that follow your chat room But I've never called any of them false or witch doctor I I've never even called any of them a Pharisee That's slander. You know saying like I would never call somebody a fact my brother because you don't agree with me and deliver You a Pharisee. No, you just don't agree with me. It ain't that serious. You know saying so You know, I just fail, you know that the video Is not becoming smart christian channel and me personally I think you should get rid of it not telling you to get rid of it and what to do on your channel I just think it puts a stain on your channel Because people listen to your channel for christ content christ glorifying content and that one It just seemed a little bit personal when I know that a lot of the accusations with the exception of the deliverance teaching You know, it just wasn't true. Isaiah's a really nice guy. I'll I'll say this and love the lord I'll say this Let me see All right y'all I gotta take a coast break By the way, by the way, I gotta ask you a question just so we can make sure keep this live stream going Uh, are you a cowboys fan? No, no, I'm not. Okay, so it makes us an enemy. All right. Cool. All right. We can go now I did go hard on now patriots all day. All right. Just throw it out there. All right. Okay I did go hard at them I didn't go at him for any particular reason because of his age or anything like that. I it really was Matter of fact, I didn't the only reason why I even did the video on him And oftentimes When I do a video on on on somebody Um that I'm not feeling a doctrine on to put it nicely Someone brings my attention. Hey, what about this? Can you can you cover that? They want to say, okay? Fine. I'll send me let me let me I don't do I don't do even five percent of all the folks They send my way one because I don't want to too. I'm not I'm not that thoroughly versed on the person And so I'm looking to say wait, wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Now. I will say this um in terms of Doctrine and so forth or whatever Uh, and I'm not I'm not bragging, but do I think I can hang with the people out there? Yeah, I do I do. I don't think that I'm some lightweight Uh, I know I know who brought me up and who taught me how I was training so forth and so Um, even with the net from stuff. I'll I'll I'll I'll go I'll go now. I also said in a in a another video Uh, I I won't die on that hill because If you just type it in you're gonna have It's it's a good 50 50 split as to what the nephilim did and who they are so forth But that aside but in terms of in terms of uh, um, isiah, let me say this It would be wrong of me to I think he's wrong I think I I think the doctrine is wrong But it would be wrong of me to impugn motives because I've seen I was talking about earlier my My buddy laxie who who is apostolic as they come And I and I I'll tell laxie laxie You can't spell bible and he'll tell me I don't have a heart of the lord, right? But we love each other right we really do And so I think a person can be wrong and can be genuinely wrong Meaning that they they're not that that they're wrong because not of any impure motives They just have you know and I'm and so hopefully anyone that thinks that I'm wrong will think the same thing And so it would be wrong of me to be slanderous in that way And and and and call him that and so I'm publicly apologizing for it You know for even saying that because I'm big enough. Uh, I should be um smart enough to be able to say I disagree Here's why and not make it slanderous now. Do I do I pull back on? My assertion my doctrinal searches. Well, no, um, and if he and I talked It kind of be like I probably have how you and I talk We hadn't had any we hadn't had any bad words. Matter of fact, uh, even when I talked to what's the guy, uh, LaSala when we talked there now We got off to a bad start in the in the emailing so forth whatever But it wasn't it wasn't a really too contentious Conversation on here and the guy that called me a wolf. Hey listen come tell me why I'm a wolf, right? And so that was a little too provocative. And so I hear what you're saying. So this is what I'm gonna do I will go and and I'm not gonna read to the video. I'm just gonna delete the video Um, and I'll I'll I'll try to be more Godly in my in my rebuke and so forth because there's you you can rebuke somebody I've been saying it for the last for the last month or so anyway And so I got to be able to take my method matter. I think I forgot about the thing until you told me about it Uh, and so I've got to be able to take my own advice I do I do vehemently disagree with with with all that so but but we can still fellowship Um, obviously there's some doctrine things that you and I are going to disagree with but we can steal fellowship There are going to be people in heaven Who who believe in one saved always save and those who don't They're going to be Calvinists in heaven. They're going to be arminians in heaven. There's going to be dispensations in heaven They're going to be all these they're going to be charismatic Pentecostal they're going to be church of Christ, church of God and Christ They're going to be all these different folks in heaven because well, this is what I do know And I want all of you guys that are listening down to hear this This is this is this is what you all need to hear A former pastor asked me Because I was just driving you know, you just have one of those days driving driving to church And to get to my church you got to drive by 40 other churches This is this is doubt dfw so the church is all over the place And I said that's just that's just this and I was younger. I was in my early 30s thinking that's just not right He asked me a question he said Look at somebody's comment. He said Cory You got a point. But do you think what he said when you go buy this Pentecostal church or this Charismatic church or church of Christ Baptist church, what have you when you go by all those churches Do people Get saved in those church do people come to Christ in those churches not necessarily that particular church church but Do people in the church of Christ church of God and Christ method is Baptist. Do they just did somebody come to christ? um In that church Well, yeah, he said well How was that possible? If that's of the devil certainly satan didn't lead nobody to christ Right. Well, that's true. He said because the thing is Cory We want to put our motives on god As though god can't work through all the the junk and the crap that we you know So even in churches where there's not good doctrine That you and I would could could agree that's not good doctrine there, but somebody's coming to christ People come to christ and catholic churches now. They'll leave. I know a person who who came a believer In a kingdom hall joe joe was witness church Didn't he didn't know anything about doctrine at all His family was there and he he knew how bad his life was and god worked in him and he became now He left the he left the church he left that particular church, but God still works even in places where I don't agree with Right. Thank god for that because if he only went to the clean pristine places Then I wouldn't be safe. Lord knows where where he dug me up out of right and so I'll I'll I'll try to be better when it comes to um my ire uh heavy handedness I'm not even sure what was in my mind when I when I when I made the video All I do remember is like I said like I said past Cory is In that season when you released the video there was a lot of going back and forth on social media As far as you know, uh differences in doctrine. There was earlier this year. It was a very Online was very dangerous in the in the rooms and in videos. I think we all we all got you know, uh caught up You know, this is why it took myself Isaiah and mike About three months to actually even address allen par on his video because when he released his video It was also in the heat of that moment and I just knew that if we responded now It would be coming from an emotionally angry place So we prayed about it. We you know and obviously many people probably didn't agree with the video There's a lot of reaction videos to it But when I look at the video, I thought that we were very christ loving and god honoring We didn't call him religious. We didn't say my brother you you hinder deliverance like we didn't go into any We made it our business to not accuse Allen par when we did our refuting video. We just addressed what he said not the person, you know, so That was my only gripe with you. Do this. Do this. Um, Tell tell the young brother to give me give me a call Tell tell him give me a call. Listen. I I'm not And so that way if just just just have either email me. Give me a call text whatever, you know Uh, I won't go into hey, I think you're wrong or he thinks I'm wrong. Just you know, just just tell tell him Give me a call Because I want to if if if as much as I possibly can To be at peace even with folks that I disagree with If I can't send an example then I need to sit down somewhere, right? So now I want I want to I think you're setting an example now. Um, this is the first time. Let me just say this is I've learned throughout the years You know, I kill my critics with silence I never respond. You know, I just never respond No one can ever get me to respond on anything. Why one because I'm not false. See what I'm saying? But two, you know This back and forth that's that's for young boys. You know what I'm saying? Like I don't do that I pick to your channel because I genuinely felt that you and I have a lot more common in the sense of Where we come from and that we can have grown folk conversation and we did even through email It was very cordial. It was very beautiful even on phone And let me just say this this is the first and this is the last time that I'm ever doing this Why because I never have I don't go down this trail. I'm doing this because I trust you, you know And I really believe that this was a really a good conversation that needs to get had from somebody that I genuinely respect, you know, and um I'm just never doing this again in in regards because I don't think I have to why because I know I'm not false See what I'm saying? I just feel that One is enough and this is why I've entrusted to do this with you and I'm gonna tell you another reason why I don't Respond to people's requests. You know, um, number one is when when Corrie asked me to get on the channel He asked me in a very Christ-like glorifying way very humble Sometimes folks be like, yo, you need to get on my page, man Yeah, you know all the street talk with christians.  I would have said, all right. Get on your channel Pastor Corrie genuinely asked me very very nicely. He said brother I think this would be a good idea for us to get on and boom I responded about a couple weeks later and I said Let's let's go for it, you know And the second reason why I don't respond a lot to people when their request is I don't attach my name to nobody I refuse to attach my name to anybody right now. This video is in the cyber world and it is forever And I don't want to attach. I don't attach my name or my face to anybody's channel This is the first time I've ever done this and this is going to be the last time because I believe that god The holy spirit told me that you were the person to actually do it because we would have a really good conversation and it'll be very beneficial and Also show that we can agree to disagree and still like still just have a really great conversation and learn and grow from it Yeah, so now now I've got I've got to come back and I got to do a video A nice video on why I disagree with deliverance ministry. I got to be at all nice. I got to have soft music in the background But let me say this because folks say hey, why don't I call? I don't have his number guys I see some of you guys saying why don't I I don't have uh his number Now I make my email public and so focused I got 500 emails that I got to respond to and so you can all anyone can email me by the way Let me just say this guys. Let me just say this. Um, can I take care of some uh, uh some business real quick Brother we got a passport guy got there some business guys If you've got a issue with me or something to say or whatever you don't have to Type in it you can email me You can email me if you think i'm wrong on something first of all, I've been doing this over 30 years, right? I've been doing this for over 30 years and um I believe that if you got a legitimate issue with me all you got to do is email me If you if and if we start talking and you want to talk by phone No problem either now am I going to call everybody? No I don't have I can't do that. I don't I don't have that kind of time and some folks Hey, you hadn't responded to my question. Have you seen? If you can see what's going in front of my face right now I can't keep up with with the with the chats. I can't keep up with the questions. And so I'm doing the best I can My heart is not I'm not trying to be mean spirit or anything like that I'm thinking about me and folks like me when I'm trying to reconcile So that being said, you can disagree with that. That's fine. You all can disagree. That's cool But how you disagree actually does matter it it it really does now there is something I gotta I gotta do that There's there's a lady I've seen a couple people one lady in particular keeps asking me to speak in tongues Can I can I go ahead and speak in tongues for uh, uh for the extra pinocosal folks that want me to speak in tongues? Can I Can I do that? I'm gonna go ahead and and and put on screen uh for you guys so Uh, this lady I can because she's been she at least one prayer I've seen two people do but one been doing it just over and over I just want to know that that the spirit of the lord is in me and has caused me to be able to speak in tongues You're ready. Here we go I pick up a outtaste Jesus. I'm out of my leg oh man. How to pass high point in tain. I'm on time Do us a sin taste. I'm out. Yes. All right. That was me speaking in tongues Because she's been she's been saying I just wanted to just give her a little taste of tongues That's me speaking into as was Greek, but I don't know why you think that I have to give some sort of um, and and here's why I'm doing this to think that I've got to give some sort of uh experiential demonstration as though the only way that I can understand uh, or Agree with someone or deal with someone who is on this level is that I speak in tongues or what have you The first church I went to I believe I spoke in tongues my speaking in tongues at that church sounds like yours Not yours, but but hers and so guys don't do that don't Don't want me to put in a demonstration Uh, because now if you're going to tell me that what I just did wasn't tongues Then we had to have a conversation email me at uh smarkerson challenge email and we can talk See it if if that in tongues, but the point is though, uh It's hard not to see some of the things that people are saying it's like First of all, a lot of people aren't even listening, right? I say something they they listen you say something they listen so but I know some people are I know some people are because There are people that email me, um That's like, well, who who is that person? Well, I don't really comment. I don't leave comments. I don't do a lot of chatting But they're they're listening ran into a guy today went to the gym Uh, uh, and he said hey brother. Hey brother Cory. It's like who is this guy? And and he said man watch your channels. I forgot his name, but so My point is I'm still checking out checking out these, um, uh these comments My point is I want to live a certain way. I want to be a certain way. I want to be genuine But don't expect me if I don't do things Um to your level to say, okay. Well, he ain't he ain't say he don't speak in tongues He ain't say uh or or he doesn't believe this. He ain't say remember guys Uh, I'm trying to I'm trying to get to get to be the best that I can as a believer I believe I believe my brother is too. Hopefully you all uh as well And so that means in doing so I ought to be I ought to be charitable Uh in allowing someone to grow. Hey brother, you you you need to get right Okay, so let's say the lord starts working him to get right Does need to get right at this moment or are you gonna give him some grace some time to start getting right? And we don't do that We want someone to get like me right now as though i'm i'm the standard We we got to stop that and so when you look at some of these chats y'all y'all can go by look at the chats Look at how some of these chats are some of the comments are going And some of you guys not all some of you will but a lot of you won't Say what you say to somebody to their face what you said right here And that's not right and you shouldn't say something stuff, uh on here.  Um, I know I know you're trying to chime in No, no, no, no, no. I'm just um, I 100% agree with you. You know, um, I've been glancing at the at the chat rooms You know, and it's unfortunate that people have already predetermined Um to view you in a particular category Um, there's really nothing much you can do about it other than just let it be You know like just let it be and I'm and we're okay with that Like we know we knew what we were signing on when we decided to do this to do this interview I think this conversation went extremely well. I see more the comments saying that this Conversation went extremely well more than they thought that it would and that's because there's two ground folk talking You know and not saying that your viewers aren't grown and mature in their thinking they just have their particular view I know that there's some people that said I just want to hear more scripture in your conversation Well, I guess we did as much both sides as much scripture that we can Um, you know when I ask somebody when I ask somebody how you're doing Hopefully they don't quote at me a scripture. You should just be able to say I'm doing fine My brother, you know I'm saying you don't have to quote me a scripture when we're talking see what I'm saying. So Um, just even at that, you know, yeah, listen, I know I know for a fact um As much time as I go over the scripture.  I was told today in a in a video that I was too rude And I was also reading some comments where I was just too nice or too soft You can't win you can't win and see the thing is now. This is just maturity This is just maturity in learning how to speak with someone Um, even those people who who aren't afraid to say what they want to say to somebody's face That's not godly. That's not wise First of all, nowadays it gets you killed. That's number one Uh, but two, that's not godly.  I should be able and I've I've counseled people listen Say what you want to say or need to say in a manner.  I I could have did better. I could but not it was funny though But I could have did better though. So and so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna fix now I'm not gonna I'm not gonna relent on what I believe that's not going to happen You know, you don't have to like we like let's just make things clear because I'm seeing people They're kind of knowing that we had to tell end of this conversation guys Um, those of you that are watching this was not a debate. This it that it says straightforward Conversation, it wasn't a debate. I know that it was promoted and it made it look like that. That's just marketing. That's just semi click bait to get people The the thumbnail said straightforward conversation about Deliverance, it did not say moderated debate About deliverance. We're just having a dialogue and me and him specifically agreed Because and this is what I told him. I said You already had the doctrinal dialogue about deliverance with chris lasala I said, why don't we talk about deliverance culture? And what is it that you don't adhere to about the deliverance ministry aside from the The doctrinal part, you know, and it this was a really great conversation You know i'm saying I think we held to the standards of why we had it You know, and I think this was great. Maybe next time We can come on again and have a really good conversation and really get into you know, scriptures or whatever the case may be But ideally this was just a conversation that it would be wrong if if if I said, hey Yeah, let's let's do it that way and then I came on here. No, we're going down this this this wasted that mean a lie So that would that would be wrong guys. And so I know some people say hey, you got to hit them hard You got to just don't let but we we we talked about what we want to talk about um, and so But again, the main thing is what I said at the very at the very beginning is that if we can leave um, because again, what makes a person a christian? That's the main thing what makes a person a christian um his his testimony I you got to take him for his word. I don't I don't know that he's lying. You don't know that he's lying I've got to assume that he's telling the truth. He seems passionate about it And that is if he has placed faith in christ That's what makes us a christian and if he's a christian And if that's what you did then we're part of the same family though We're we're at different ends of the dinner table. We got the same father serving and so The point is this though guys how we how we treat because you know what I can't do now. I've done this before I've sat and dealt with guys who were, uh On pagani side and on salvatore side and on um, what's the brother from indiana's name? How do you say his last name mike? Signorelli signorelli From indiana remember indiana. So but I've dealt with you know with guys like that and the only the only And I've seen guys come from and maybe you probably said the same thing The only way that I can move someone from where I think that they they may have um, uh Misunderstood something the only way that I can that I can bring them along Is to have a conversation with the person and dialogue and bring now I'm not gonna I'm not gonna compromise and I don't think that you have or you would and so I got to be able to talk to him. Hey, have you considered this brother? Now I can throw a rock over there and hit him on the head and say hey and then when he looks up Hey, consider it. He ain't going. He's not gonna hear what I'm saying And so there there's there's gotta be some sort of method uh to what we're doing With that just it depends, you know, and I think as we close out, you know, um I have a different mindset past the quarry is I'm not trying to convince anybody of deliverance I don't got no time to do that. I'm just helping people like did they come to me? They come to our church. Um, I point them to christ. We help them to get set free I'm not looking to Defend deliverance with everybody not once have I wrote to you or anyone else saying let's let's uh Let's have a moderated debate so I can convince that that christ has not called me christ has not called us to do that Christ called us to preach the gospel deaf burial and resurrection of christ, you know, um I'm not doing that. You know saying like if we ever if we ever encounter I might ask him Hey, man, like what's your thoughts on that? I saw your video, you know, like if I ever meet people Most of the time I just never meet them. So that's not my focus for online online ministry I'm not looking to convince people about Deliverance, you know, my our online ministry is dedicated to those who already believe that they have a demon like that's it You know, and I help them get free, you know, or christ through me helps them get free pointing them back to him You know, um, so I think people get confused like my brother use your platform to glorify christ unbelievers, don't watch my broadcast They're not watching my broadcast and whenever I sense that they do I'll go raw and preach the gospel You better repent or you go into hell You know, I'll go down that trail when I kind of discern it. Okay, I got some unbelievers Don't watch alexander pagani ministries only a select group of people that feel that they're demonized Regardless, if you agree with me or not, those of you that are watching the ones that feel that they're demonized They are the ones that watch our ministry So ideally the only thing that i'm talking about on my channel are topics that cater to that crowd I have a special interest ministry a para church ministry online like i'm not like let's talk about all a bunch of other topics No, i'm just talking about that to who but what about all the other people that watch your channel Those people don't watch my channel this group of people watches my channel and therefore I minister to them So I don't understand how people don't understand that that a particular group of people Follow our ministry and want this particular kind of message because this is where they need help in Why do I have to say forget you guys? Let's just encompass the whole thing Okay, then it's just a agree to disagree that my brother. I really wish that you would I don't believe god has called me to do that. You know what i'm saying? So it's just I guess that's just where we have to leave it as like that's where our online ministry unbelievers Don't watch our broadcast because they have no idea like They're not saved, you know, so now now let me let me say this also because I want I want to clarify something too As I was thinking about it I've said this before matter of fact, you know what? I actually just said this Just this week or last week. I can't remember days run together But about how we deal with different people um Now somebody like a a that name who should not who should remain name was I'll go ahead and say his name Marcus Rogers Will I be what will I would I take down what I said about him? Nope Nope That that there's a difference there. There is a huge difference with somebody like him uh, and so Now here's what here's what I know. Let me just say this I said before I met at your pasta curry. I ain't met at you with that one Listen the the the the the man tried the man. I hit the man up the man responded back and then the man, um Took it down and then the man turned around and said that that he lied about Us us trying to get in contact and so forth and he makes these things. Listen I there's certain things you can just see that is it isn't it isn't intentional It's not, you know, and I gave him the benefit of that at first and so I haven't I haven't earned that with with, um Uh with isiah to say that to call, you know, and so I can't I don't know his heart He he's certainly not engaged in the things that that a Marcus Rogers or people like that are engaged in He's not engaged in things that let's say like a Benny hand or a uh a creflo dollar. You know, somebody like that so That's why there if you guys can't see sometimes there are differences in people Two people can be wrong about the same thing but have different motives or different hearts about it, right? And so, um, now I mentioned they're wrong about the same things. I'm just saying I disagree with both of them, but Um, would I put isiah salivar in the same category as Marcus? I don't put very many folks in the same category as Marcus, right? I mean he he got Listen, he he's building. He's been building a holy hell mind to himself Some of your friends put me in the same category as Marcus rogers. I'm like, huh? Like that don't even make no sense I don't even know Marcus rogers like that. I've had four conversations with him And they've been online and only one time on the phone And that's about it. He is not a close friend You know, I I spoke to him one time when he was going to debate on alan par and I just told him I said my brother, you know, if you want to get people to stop thinking that you're passionate without, you know Without scripture, you're gonna have to defend yourself Scripturally, so I said in that interview just provide more scripture and maybe people will see The way that you think it but you're making yourself look bad by doing all these persecution complex videos You need to stop. That's all I said to him. That's all I said to him And then I got put on the radar like This guy's down with him. No, he's not a close friend He is a colleague. He's friends with people that I know and that was it I had that one advice that I gave him. I said you want people to Take you more serious provide more scripture as to why you believe what you believe and therefore they'll have to just say Well, I guess that's how you view that it doesn't have they don't have to agree with it But don't do the you know, let's just sit here and let's see who god answers Like that stuff is that's irrelevant. Like that's irrelevant stuff. You know, I'm saying that that's experience Like don't do that. That was the only advice that I gave him for that because I genuinely Just kind of felt sorry for the brother Because you know, I just said hey man, you know, that was it So I'm getting under fire as you in the same category as the brother and I'm like, oh like We're not even friends. He's friends with people that I know And I don't even really know him like that. I've had four conversations with him in my whole life That was it three of them were online and one time on the phone. I love to have one with him I love to have one with him. But let me say this as we get it as we're getting ready to close. I want to do this Um, because I don't think we did this week I did I'm not sure if we did or didn't again the days go together. Um, but Uh, if anyone wants to ask I'll I'll I'll stay a few extra minutes. If anyone wants to ask me some questions I don't know if you want to do the same. Uh, my wife my wife is uh out Interviewing kids today. Um, she's a teacher and so she won't be home for a little bit So it's just me here. And so while it's just me here in the dogs I'll take a little extra time and if someone wants to ask me uh some questions Feel free. I don't know if you want to stay if you want to go ahead and uh and leave brother, but You know, I'm supposed to be in a meeting right now at at 8 p.m. But my staff they're watching You know, I don't think it's fair that I just do the interview and then I bounce And then people in the chat room that have genuine questions, you know, they feel they want to ask me I I want to give them the the benefit to be able to ask me because nobody's running away here You know, I'm saying I don't want no one to think that I'm running like he interviewed and then he just left but I actually have a Thursday meeting at 8 p.m. With my leaders, but they're watching so they'll understand. Um, let's get into some q&a Okay For a little bit and then I'll ride with you as much as I can and then I genuinely do have to log off Because tomorrow is good friday and sunday's easter and like there's a lot going on in our church right now So go ahead guys put a q Or question in front And is this thing that okay, wait a second Yeah, put a q or a question in front. Um y'all be be uh guided with the questions as well So if y'all have any questions, uh for myself Oh Okay, just pull pull them right off the chat room the ones that you feel that are good and let's go for it You know, does the washing experience only happen to some born again believers if so, why? um by the way Put a Not just matter of fact, I tell you what I tell you what don't put a q go ahead and put a q But also put a p or a c Depending upon who you're addressing the question to so that that'll be easy. So go go go ahead brother And um, I'll let you get that one Okay, first of all, I want to know what they mean by the word washing Are they referring to the experience that I had or the washing of regeneration according to the book of titus chapter Titus chapter three Not doctrinally the washing of regeneration happens to all those that are genuinely called to receive salvation from him Based on faith and repentance on the efficacy of christ's work on the cross. So I would say yes Does everybody feel it? Absolutely not. I would prefer that you get doctrinally saved and not experience saved, which means Looking for the experience. I got to get the experience. I didn't feel nothing The bible has the gospel has nothing to say about feelings as everything to say about repent believe in the gospel Feelings may or may not come after so I would say I wouldn't I would not encourage people to seek that level of experience I would tell them to seek the true born again experience based through the scriptures And then the holy spirit's job because he's the paracletals He'll make sure that you'll have an inner witness that you really are Genuinely saved and it won't be a feeling it'll be the life that's carried out as a result of trusting in him And not through your own own works now Do some people have that that experience? Yes God is sovereign if he wants to give somebody that experience Who are we to say no you're saying do we should we seek it? Absolutely not Did I have it? Yes But Months after I had that experience I made sure I dived back into the scriptures to make sure that I was Doctrinally saved and not experientially saved and then I ended up finding out that I was doctrinally saved Except that I had this experience But I don't preach the experience I preach the cross, you know, so I would say don't seek it But if it happens roll with it but seek scripture first I would I would say this Because it seems like she's probably she may be talking about As it as it relates to this maybe the being born again experience in john three or titus They're both they're both the same I This is how I teach it. So you guys who haven't heard me say this When when jesus is talking to nicodemus, he says that a person must be Born again as we're gonna they know them which is to be born from above And then titus relates to that this washing this regeneration This is the heart literally being regenerated from above and so that has to happen I think that that you cannot be a christian without that happening We're told about that In previous passages in the old in the old testament What god is going to do and then we see it actually happening. So That's one technique. Let me go let me pull up some of these questions Let's see this neck Okay, uh, since I I'll I'll do one for you and then one for me. Okay. All right. Here's one. She she's got a question. She says Why are the hospitals and graves still full? uh, a deliverance minister if If deliverance ministries are valid Because god is sovereign and not everybody gets delivered I don't know how to answer that one because To validate a deliverance ministry has never been go empty out of hospital That is a straw man argument that people say Because they just don't agree with deliverance ministries the same reason why Everybody in your family don't get healed god is sovereign You know, um, and some people get healed some people don't you know, um, I don't know I don't have the answer to that. I'm not god. He's 100 sovereign. Okay. I'm gonna answer this one from uh, brother quam Uh, what are the bigger fish to fry that we can all get behind? Well, here's the one thing that I see that we don't do enough of And that is sharing the gospel It doesn't matter what your doctrine is like if you don't have christ. I know some people who have wonderful doctrine Uh, and heart is horrible. They don't they don't they're not safe. They're not they're not believers Uh, a person like barterman knows the scriptures now his his intent in tearing scriptures down Uh is to make christ look bad The bigger fish that we should all be behind is our intention in whatever we say The reason why a person would make a video make a statement Whatever should be ultimately to bring someone either to christ Help them to be encountered have an encounter with christ or to help them to grow in christ And so that's the bigger fish that we can fry and if there's somebody out there along the way along the way Let me say it again along the way in doing that that is interfering with that then we call them out It's not that we have a ministry of calling out wolves and on the way of calling out wolves We stop out and mention the gospel knows the other way around we're sharing the gospel in our daily lives Either with words or our deeds and along the way when when we see something we call it out So that's what I would say are are the bigger fish to fry. So Okay, here's one for this is for you He says, uh, how do you discern the spirits you perceive to be Oppressing people Very simple. There are two ways one the holy spirit can show it to you, but that's not enough for some people because I know how the viewers Want me to answer and I'm gonna give you the doctrinal answer to that number one We don't go looking for demon personalities. We look at a function Demons are have the same habitual patterns. They work the same way. They work the same way. So Instead of looking for a demon And trying to get its name if you can see the function Actually working in someone and ideally, you know, obviously this person has a potentially the spirit of loss Now loss is also a work of the flesh But let's just use that of extreme loss, you know pornography or whatever the you know next level stuff It's the function. You just you can see the function and you could just you just know Okay, I think I believe I know what's there and you confront it like and that's it You know, it's really it's really not that hard, you know Uh He asked me he says, uh, why don't I believe in deliverance ministry? I do not see any past videos if you explain. Well, I've got a couple videos Uh, send me an email. I'll I'll send you the link, but I do believe in deliverance ministry I don't I believe it's different. I believe that when a person receives Jesus when Jesus Christ is in someone when they have the holy spirit The process of being delivered has started that that's the ultimate form of deliverance and that there's not there's there's there's no There's nothing Comparable to that. So I do believe in deliverance. I don't believe it in the same way The past regarding believes in it. I believe in it differently. I believe that you want to be delivered Go to christ here. You got the world and sin and all these strongholds and addiction and here you've got God I got a yes, we can fit and the closer I get to God The further I get away from all this other stuff the more I deal with this other stuff the further They get with God and so that's my take so I don't I don't have an issue with deliverance It's just how I see deliverance ministry ought to be done. So Let's see Okay, here brother brother zirqs says does alex bagani still still call himself an apostle If so explain this take on it 100% yes, I do am I an apostle in direct connection to canon? Absolutely not Am I an apostle being sent one with hands laid on me by an ecclesiastical Presbytery of a church that laid hands on me to send me out as a sent one Apostolos then absolutely. Yes in the sense of succession. Yes in the sense of canon 100% absolutely not nothing. I say is canon nothing. I say whatever be canon I do not equate myself to the apostle Paul I perpetuate the apostles doctrine that they already established in the book of acts chapter two in the sense of succession and Title I don't have to dumb it down and call it missionary. Nope. No in in our particular organization Hands were laid on me according to acts chapter 13 verse 1 I was commissioned and I was sent out and the video is on my timeline I've done everything ecclesiastically legal and therefore in that sense of the five fold apostle prophet evangelist pastor and teacher I 100% agree with and I Well, I see I hate having because there's no winning because if I start telling you I've seen miracles happen You're glorifying yourself if I tell you I