Good evening, ladies. Good evening, good evening. Hello, everybody. Hi. Wow, we got a lot of people on here already. Awesome. Hello, hello. Hi, Joanne. Hi, Jen. Hi, Patricia. Hi, other. Deb, Jen, Lisa. We got Ann Marie in the house. We got Evelyn. We got Natasha, Marianne, Alicia, Stephanie, Angie, Angel, that'll be amazing. Hey, you're gonna come back to class on Tuesdays or what?  I don't know, can she hear me? Hey, if you're in town, I wanna encourage you to come this Tuesday because we're gonna have some guests from out of town. And I think it's gonna be a special Tuesday night. So if you can make it, try to make it, okay? You guys can hear me okay? All right, good. Good. You know, sometimes the Lord puts something on your heart and amen, a praying for fire too. Sometimes the Lord puts something on your heart and you think, well, maybe it's just for me. And then you get before people and you kinda hear, you kinda feel a little nudging to share it. So there's a little song. Some, it's happened on and off throughout my whole Christian life. And it hasn't happened for a really long time, but it started, it happened tonight, made it around 6.30. I was like, I gotta get on Zoom. But there's a song called Good, Good Father. And you might know it. It goes like this, you're a good, good father. It's who you are. It's who you are. It's who you are and I'm loved by you. Who I am. It's who I am. It's who I am. You are perfect in all of your ways. You are perfect in all of your ways.  He's a good father. He's good. Our father is good, ladies. He's good and I have scripture to back it up. Are you ready? He's a good father. And so Psalms 1830, if I can see it through my little fears coming out. Psalms 1830 says this, by my God, I can leap over a wall. As for God, his way is perfect. The word of the Lord is proven. He is a shield to all who trust in him.   It says he is a shield to all who trust in him. He's a good father. He's a good, good father. It's just who he is. It's just who he is. And you're loved by him. And that's because of who he is. And that's who you are. You're loved by this good father. Okay, Proverbs 10, 22 says this, the blessings of the Lord make one rich. And he adds no sorrow with it. You know, the Lord is good. And when he gives us a blessing, he doesn't add sorrow to it to keep you humble. That's a false doctrine. That's a lie from the beginning. When the Lord blesses, it is good and it is designed to make one rich. Rich in your heart, rich in your life, rich in your relationships, rich prosper you in business, in what you put your hand to. The blessings, the blessings of the Lord make one rich. And he adds no sorrow to it. So if you have something in your life and you're like, well, I think this is from the Lord, but it's causing you a lot of mental anguish or it's causing you a lot of disruption, then that's not a blessing from the Lord. That's not a blessing from the Lord because he's a good father. He's a good, good father. It's who he is. He is perfect in all of his ways. Perfect. So he would never give you something that's going to cause you heartache.   I don't even know if I can do this Lord. And he's like, nope, you can't do it without me. Remember, apart from me, Jesus said, you can do nothing and that's really true. I have a big week ahead of me and I told the Lord, I said, you don't come with me, Holy Spirit, if you don't manifest through me, it'll flop, it'll be a one big giant flop. And so I'm just relying on him. I have to. I can't rely on my own intelligence as my top priority. I can't rely on my own organization skills as my number one safety. I have to rely on him first and foremost. And what my ideas, if they don't turn out well, then I just have to rely on the Holy Spirit. He's gonna move and do what he's gonna do. A good friend of mine told me, she said, all you gotta do is show up and the Holy Spirit will move. I'm like, oh, that's perfect. And I'll just get up there on Saturday and just say, okay, Holy Spirit, you're playing. So we have the women's conference this Saturday. It's gonna be amazing. Thursday, Brother Rick is gonna preach. Friday, Brother Mike's gonna preach. And then I'm gonna get up there and share on Saturday. So thank you, those of you who plan on tuning in, it will be live streamed like it always is. And some of you will even be in town, so excited. We're gonna have three straight days of really the Holy Spirit moving in great power. And I'm excited. I'm really excited. So we're here tonight hanging out. And I talked to some of my sisters and I don't know, is Renju, hey, is Renju on? We're gonna praise him.  Some of you are just starting out. And some of you are well on the road to recovery, spiritual recovery. Meaning you've been doing, you've been in this process of deliverance for a long time. And every phase of your spiritual recovery looks different. So what we're gonna do tonight is we're gonna share me and Jan and Stephanie and Renju, she's pups on. I'm gonna give them a chance to share. Ellen will be on a little later, I think she's at work. And just talking about in the beginning, and I'll share a little bit first, in the beginning of the spiritual journey of getting back to health, spiritual health. And along with that gained, you may be regained physical health too, or mental health. So, but before we get started, so I think that's all of our announcements. We've got a big week, I've been talking about it. Anyone new on here tonight, I'll just mention it. This is Steps to Freedom, my name is Julie Andrews. And if you wanna get a weekly link, email with the weekly link, send me an email at steps2freedomadc.com. And I'll send it out to you. We also have a WhatsApp group where people can have conversation, request prayer, talk about where they are on the miracle list. If you need the miracle list, send me an email, and I'll send it out to you, but we welcome you. Those of you who are on for the first time, okay? And we are continuing our series, thanks Stephanie for posting that. We are still talking about pulling down strongholds. And one of the strongholds I think many people have is a misconception about what deliverance looks like and what to expect. So tonight we're just talking a little bit about that. All right. Is Sister Renju on, I'll see her. I'll give her one more chance. I'm here. Oh, there she is. Okay, Sister, do you wanna pray for us before I get started? Sure. Hi, sisters. God bless you. All right, let's pray. Father, we thank you for another time of fellowship. Oh God, thank you for your presence. I missed us. Lord, you say when we gather, when we gather, you are a missed us, Father. We honor you, Holy Spirit. We honor you, Father. Thank you for your presence, I missed us. Thank you for loving us and never, never once leaving us, Father. Thank you for your faithfulness. Father, I just lift up every heart here tonight, every sister, every sister that they will connect tonight. Lord, we bind any spirits that are distracting any witchcraft on this call in the name of Jesus, any monitoring spirits, any spirit of offense, any retaliation in the name of Jesus. I bind any fear, doubt, and unbelief, Father God. I pray that you connect our hearts and tune our spirit man tonight, Lord. Help our spirit man to be tuned in so we can hear your voice. We can hear your word tonight, Father God, for each one of us. Customize it, Holy Spirit. You know how to make it sound right to each person. You know what each person needs. Thread it to their hearts, Father, into the string of their hearts that they may hear you, Father God, tonight. Thank you, Holy Spirit. I pray, Father God, God for Julie. And for each one of us, as we speak, Father God, may our words and our thoughts and our heart be in connect with you, Holy Spirit. And may we be able to bring each other together before your throne. Unite us with love that cannot be broken, Father God, your love, one heart, one mind, one accord before you. May your presence be evident on this call, Holy Spirit. Well, I pray for your peace and your love and your power upon it, Father God. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Rushalara basutu lorobokuravara. I pray for every sister, Lord. I pray for your presence over every heart. I bind every spirit of fear, doubt, and unbelief. Father, I speak over these sisters that their hearts would hear you tonight. And that God, freedom is their potion as your warriors in time, Father God, that they will rise from glory to glory and Lord, you will teach them, you will teach their hands to war with a kingdom of darkness that they may be victorious Christians and victorious sisters in an army, Father. Thank you for building this army of sisters across nations, across the nation, Father God, and binding us with a love and one mind, one faith before you that God, we may build, we may pull down strong holds and break walls apart, Father God, of the kingdom of darkness. We may pull more victory, more glory to your name. Thank you, Holy Spirit. In Jesus' name we ask and I cover these sisters with the blood of Jesus. Amen. Amen. Thanks, Renju. Appreciate that. Beautiful. So, I'm looking at your faces and because a lot of people don't have their cameras on but those of you that I can see below, I know that you've been on a journey of healing and deliverance for some time now. And where you started does not look like where you are today. One of the misconceptions that people have in their mind is that once they start deliverance, then everything will change in my life suddenly and I'll get back to my life as usual. And that's really not how it works. And so those of you who've been on the journey a little while, you know that's not how it works. But there's a lot of people new to the journey. And when I thought about, when I meet with somebody in my office and they for the very first time get deliverance from spirits, I tell them, now you have begun your spiritual recovery. You're now in spiritual recovery and it's a starting point. And you have to keep going, it's a process. And many of you have been on this road for a while and now you're realizing that, wow, maybe it's not a demon I'm dealing with but I'm dealing with a stronghold or maybe you're dealing with several strongholds, okay? And you're coming across spirits along the way and different circumstances in life will uproot them. Isn't that true? You'll come across a situation that you haven't been in for a while or you'll come across a situation that you've never been in before and all of a sudden you're feeling this anger. Like where did that come from? I haven't felt that anger since my children were small. I haven't felt that kind of anger until like, since I was a first year teacher I haven't felt that kind of anger since my first few years of marriage but the spirits will go in hiding and then you come across a new situation and that those emotions will rise up and not that all anger is demonic, it is not, it is a normal human emotion but if you're unable to control it you are unable to manage, you lose control when you get angry or you just can't stop thinking about the situation and you keep going over it and over it and you're feeling more angry and more bitter then it's quite possible that you have spirits in there and you need deliverance, okay? So we're talking about spiritual recovery and so in the beginning, so I went through it twice. In the very beginning, like 13, 14 years ago when I first met Mike, I didn't know, I was so, I didn't know that a Christian could have an evil spirit in their body, I had no idea and so, and I had no idea that so many of my physical ailments were caused by spirits. I had no idea until I started going through deliverance week after week and things started to improve in my life. I used to feel very like lightheaded, I would get up quickly and I would feel lightheaded and dizzy and kind of black out, you know what I mean? That would happen to me a lot. I would move my head quickly and I would get dizzy. I thought that was just normal or I thought maybe I was dehydrated or maybe I didn't eat enough or didn't sleep enough. I was always explaining it away but after I went through a measure of deliverance in those early days, that sensation went away and I no longer got dizzy when I moved quickly and so that was something that resolved quite quickly in the beginning. I still had a lot of fear. Fear was my major, I don't know, I'd say a network of spirits and witchcraft was also, I didn't realize how much of my life was affected by spirits of witchcraft in the beginning and migraine headaches, the dizziness, the foggy headedness, it was all related, for me it was related to witchcraft and so when those spirits came out or a measure of them, I started to get a lot of relief. One big thing in the beginning is I had a curse on my life from I went to a massage therapist in Mexico, well, what I didn't realize was I was taking part of a ritual and they use sage and they use some other things that they burned. I didn't know, I mean, I was in Mexico, I'm thinking I'm just getting a massage, I've had a ton of them in America and I didn't think anything of it and the gal who was with me, she did all the translating and so I just ignorant to what I was getting involved in but I actually that practitioner placed a curse upon me and so that was causing a lot of problems in my life and I didn't know it until I showed up to the deliverance center and God used David Baldwin who just preached last Friday night, he said, what'd you do in Mexico? As I'm standing at the altar screaming my head off and I confessed to what happened and then he broke the curse. I don't remember what happened after that but my life started to change little by little. Well, I didn't stick with it, I did not fully commit my life to Christ and to all of his ways and fell back in the sin and then came back in 2019 to the deliverance center and I'm staying put now. And so what it looked like for me this time around, especially 2019, 2020, when I was going through a lot of deliverance and just trying to really recommit my life and say, I'm gonna stop sinning, I'm gonna stop having a glass of wine every night, I'm gonna stop being on the internet looking for a date, I'm gonna stop these things and I'm gonna focus on the Lord. Things started to change but I had to do a lot of work and a lot of renewing of my thought processes and one of the things that I had to do in my spiritual recovery is I had to get really quiet.  I would be bored, I would just go to the grocery store and buy food. I was always going someplace throughout my life, I always had a pattern of, I always worked two jobs and I was always volunteering and then I had a social life on top of that. I basically went home to sleep, eat and shower. I was in school a lot, I was taking classes so I was always going somewhere. And in starting in 2020, when I moved back to Phoenix, part of my spiritual recovery looked like staying at home. I stayed at home, I listened to sermons, I stopped watching movies and I started praying in tongues a lot. Every day I'd go for a walk and I'd pray in tongues for an hour out and I did that every day. And I would get, and on my little trail that I walked, I would get like deliverance walking on that trail while talking to the Lord and crying out to him and just asking him to cleanse me and repenting, I'm sorry Lord for this and that and whatever would come to mind, right? So, and then I was plugged into the ministry and that's a lot of the work that I was doing was learning how to help others. So for me, that's what it looked like and those early days, reading the Bible two, three times a day, I wasn't working at that time. I was walking every day, I was, I cut back on eating. I kind of had a modified fast going on. I did self deliverance almost every day. It was very intense in the beginning. And so for me, that's what the spiritual recovery looked like in the beginning. And that's where I wanted to go have the sister share tonight in the beginning, what did it look like for you? What, what did in the beginning weeks, months, years, what did your spiritual recovery look like? So I'd like to invite Jen to share first. If she would. Hey, Jen. Good evening. Oh, my deliverance, like how I got started or just what it looked like overall or? Yeah, sure. Well, so I didn't really know I needed deliverance for a long time and I was loaded with stuff, right? Like I was an alcoholic, I couldn't stay sober. I loved the Lord, but I kept backsliding. So one day, you know, I was listening to 10, 10 a.m. and I heard brother Mike. So that's how I was introduced to the center. And I went a couple of times. It was when he was over at the house of healing. I think it was like 2011. And I went like two or three times, but I was cut out. Like I didn't understand at that point how the spirits worked. So I get really scared. And then I jet like after the teaching, I'd bail. And I would, you know, I would then I found out he was online. So I didn't have to go in anymore, but I would just watch him, but it never really like now I know it was the spirits telling me, oh, you're good. You can handle this on your own.  I watched the teachings and everything, but it didn't really hit home for me until the spirits actually manifested and started speaking out of me. So I was praying one day and my tongue switched. Now I know it switched to demonic. And then it started speaking in English out of me. And it was telling me that I couldn't repent. I was damned. I had done too much to be forgiven.  Basically it was trying to tell me like that it was the Holy spirit that I was cut off that I'd been abandoned by God. So I knew in that moment that I needed deliverance big time. Like I knew it was a demon. At first, you know, the fear came over me. Oh my gosh, you know, I'm being rejected by God which is what it wanted to tell me. But I knew it was demonic. So I went in. That's when the first time I went in. So I went in and I saw Mike. And my first deliverance was phenomenal. You know, it was really great. A lot of stuff came out. But the thing is what I didn't realize that it was an ongoing process. So I think I was under the assumption that it was gonna be just all blown out of me and I was gonna go home and my life was gonna be completely different. And so I didn't understand why I kept having struggles. You know, why I kept struggling with depression. Why I was, you know, had this heaviness all the time. And I think I had reached out. I think I reached out to Mike again and said, I'm not better. What's wrong with me? You know, I know I got great deliverance. What happened? And he just sent me the miracle list. So that's really where it all started for me. And I went through, I wanna say I hit it hard. I really did hit it hard. I went probably two to three times a week for a couple of years for deliverance. And then, you know, I got involved with in personal relationships with ministers. So I got ministry, that was a real blessing. But I really, it was a journey for sure. But I think the biggest thing that I noticed was I would do really well for a while. So I would get really great deliverance and I would do really well and I would feel like a new person and then I get slammed again. And I finally, you know, it was revealed to me that I was just hitting another layer. So another layer was coming up because I was freaking out. I'm like, I feel like I've been body snatched. I was doing so great and now all this stuff is back. What did I do? Well, it was just more coming to the surface and the Lord was showing me what was there. So it was like continuously like just going and I got to the point where I was casting stuff out even when I had no manifestations in my life because I knew they were hiding. So it was a journey. I wanna say, you know, of course, maintenance is always ongoing, but I would say I hit it hard for two years. So in the ministry now, being on the other side of the desk, right? There's people coming in and they, well, I've been doing this for a month or two months. I'm discouraged, why am I not delivered? And I think when we go into it, sometimes we think it's just gonna be very quick. And of course, I tell people what you're gonna get, what you put into it, but you have to be patient. It's about so much more than just casting the demons out.  Because if you can't do that, you're never gonna get anywhere, you're in a hamster wheel. So it was a, it's been, yeah.  I feel like I'm going backwards and or I never got any deliverance. I feel like, you know, I'm back where I started and he sent you the miracle list. Right, so I didn't get the focus. Yeah, I didn't get that the first time I went in and I guess I was under, even though I'd watched a lot of his teachings, I think it's different when you start to go through it. And I was kind of like, what's going on? You know, I went through deliverance. Why am I still having these issues?  It's gonna take a minute to get them all out, right? So that was like a, you know, once I started realizing, okay, this is gonna take me a while and made a commitment to just stay faithful to doing it. Then it went good, you know, of course, the Lord was always still showing, he'll show me things that I thought I got delivered from. You know, I'll get irritated or be in traffic and I'll yell at the car in front of me and I'm like, oh no, something's still there. Something is still there. So he has a way of putting you in situations where that will be brought out. And, you know, you get it out. You get help if you need help or prayer or you do it yourself. But it's been a journey for sure.  Yes. So I think this, and here's a good segue into tearing down the stronghold.  I went after that thing. I don't know, probably 800 times thinking, you know, why is it still there? Why am I still having these kinds of struggles? Why am I still having these weird thoughts, right?  So coming out of agreement with all that has been, I want to say deliverance is the easy part. Getting the demons out is the easy part. It's coming out of agreement and retraining your thoughts and catching the lies, right? Even things that we never even knew that we were in agreement with. That kind of has been the slower part because it's revealed over time. I don't think God ever dumps everything on a person all at once. It's one lie at a time, a little bit here, a little bit there. Taking the territory back from the enemy. And it is, it's a journey and I know a lot of people get very discouraged and sometimes overwhelmed thinking, oh my gosh, I've been doing this forever. How long is it gonna take? But if you're vigilant and you're committed and sincere, then you'll get there. It's like the wilderness journey, right? So we're all in it. You gotta go through there to get to the promised land. And the quicker we can get our thoughts in order and the quicker we'll get through it. But for me, my biggest struggle is coming out of agreement with negative thoughts, catching them to begin with and just un-tangling the lies that have been part of my thinking since I was a toddler. I mean, the rejection spirit came in when I was very young and it hammered me my whole life. I mean, really hammered me. And yeah, so it's, I think it'll be a journey, it's sanctification, coming out of agreement. So I think that for all of the people out there that might be discouraged, don't be. It's a process and the Lord takes us through it. We lean on him and he takes us through it in our time, everybody's different. We can't compare our deliverance to anybody else's. If you're sincere, and you have a heart to want freedom and you really put your trust in the Lord, he'll lead you through it and help you at your own pace. Everybody's different. We can't rush through anything or else. It's not gonna take, we have to do it with God at our own pace, what he takes us through it, what he reveals to us in time. Because he's not gonna overwhelm us or burden us like that. That's been my experience. He deals with things one thing at a time, so. Yeah, that's right. I used to call up the spotlight. My first thought to say, I wasn't aware that I was gossiping, so much complaining and talking about other people and complaining about other people. And then all of a sudden I kept recognizing, oh my gosh, I'm complaining right now.  And I likened it to like a big mag life that the police officer shines in your face at night when he says, driver's license and registration, please. God puts a spotlight on that thing he wants you to work on. Exactly, that's exactly true. And it's never too much, like in my experience. And when I started deliverance, I had all kinds of stuff. I mean, addiction and alcohol and rejection and self-hate and depression.  So it was not an overnight thing. It was one thing at a time that was dealt with and he still shows me things. Of course, a lot of the major stuff, like the depression's gone, that was the biggest one. That was the most relief. Once I got that thing out, that addiction, all the addictions gone, right? The alcohol gone, all of that. Things really started to come into more focus for me.  So once I got sober, a lot of the depression lifted just from being sober, but I still did get the deliverance from that. But over time, it was like one thing at a time that the Lord would deal with me about. So it was like too much. So let me ask you this question. Did you have a period of time where all you did was focus on deliverance or did you continue to live your life? Like, did you continue to work? And I know you have a daughter. Oh yeah, I would. You have a daughter, right? Yeah. Yeah, you know, I've been a relationship for like 28 years now. I've been a single mom. So I never really had a chance to just quit everything and focus on one thing. I was always working. You know, I was a high functioning alcoholic. You know, I was never out of work because of that. I lost everything else, but I worked through everything.  So with my deliverance, you know, I did focus on my deliverance, but I still was living life.  You know, it was like a few times a week and that I would do that and then self deliverance too. I did a lot of self deliverance, but you know, it was in addition to everything else, church and Bible study. Like I was really trying to get my walk with God going. So I didn't just do deliverance. Like I was like studying the word. I was in fellowship. And I mean, I was a recluse for a decade. I had no friends. I had barely left my house except to go to work. So the Lord was taking me through a lot. You know, he put me with a lot of sisters. I'd made a lot of friends. So I had a support system. So I had a life that he was building in addition to the deliverance. Like he was building a life for me, a Christian life, right? Like walking and you know, walking in unity with other sisters and Bible study group, church and of course the deliverance center and what was going on there.  And the more delivered I got, the better it got. You know, now I'm in ministry and the Lord's using me and this ministry. So he's changed my life. If you would have seen where I was, you know even five years ago, you would have been really surprised probably it was a different, yeah. 100% different life. So he's good. Jen didn't mention, but she runs a prayer group once a month and she had quite a large showing last Saturday. So God has brought a lot of friends, a lot of good relationships and people trust her and they liked her and she has a different life now. A different life. Praise the Lord. It's all for him, all for his glory. He did it all. It is his glory, yeah, for sure. So yeah, I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be where I am now. And of course I'm still a work in progress. I'm still working every day, you know to try to keep going and get rid of the lies because it took a lifetime to pile them up in my brain and it's gonna take a while to get them all out. But definitely in a different place than I started. 100% different. Amen. And that's what we should expect. So when you're going through deliverance, right now you might not have the restoration that Jen testified about, but that's what you can expect because the Bible says God came to give us life and life in abundance. And when you think about what is that life? That's a life of love, peace, joy, patience, right? Humility or meekness, self-control, kindness, you know, the fruit of the spirit. You can think about it that way. Like that's what he wants to give you an abundance of. And when you have an abundance of peace and joy, there's nothing that can stop you. You're gonna do great things. And it doesn't mean everybody is called to be a deliverance minister, although we are all called like the signs that follow believers, right? So if you're someplace and someone needs deliverance, you now know what to do. It doesn't mean you need to open your own ministry. You are the ministry wherever you go, right? If you're in a church or you have a friend who's struggling, you know how to pray for them. You know how to administer deliverance to them if that's what they need and God directs you and it's the right time, right? So, and not everybody's called to teach. Not everybody's called to be a pastor or not everybody's called to work, you know, in the different ministries that the Bible talks about, but we all have some calling. I mean, that's why we're here. We're ambassadors of Christ, right? We're His representatives. We're trying to work to get as many people into the kingdom before this life passes away and it will. This is only temporary and then we'll live our real life in eternity, which is kind of hard to understand, but that's really what's gonna happen. And so, but there's nothing wrong with living life now and thriving. Some of you have talents and desires and maybe it's not right now that you are to fulfill them. Maybe you have to go through some deliverance a little bit more to get your head clear, right?  And so I know that I've been called the ministry. I know that because I heard it audibly. I can't get away from it. I think I've always known it, but I wanted certain things in my life. I wasn't ready to die to myself, so I ran away from it. And now I know. I know that I know this is what I'm doing and whatever form that takes. Okay, God is, He's a good father and He's taken care of me. So that's a blessing. But so I'm hoping this is helpful. So Renju, are you on sister still? Yes. Yes, great. Hey, could you share with us? In the beginning when you first, you had your first deliverance, maybe share a little bit like what was your major struggle? And then when you first time you got deliverance, what would your life like the first few months after that? Okay, let me see how I can go that short. I struggled a lot with depression and fear. So I even went to the point where I was slightly suicidal. I would think a lot of thoughts like that. I'm done with life, I'm stuck, I can't move over and nothing will ever change. My life is just a mess and just feel stuck in that position. So I had come through be in health long time ago. That was the first ministry that I encountered some deliverance. That was in 2014, but I didn't keep and track with it because I wasn't close to any deliverance ministry. So, and they were far off in Georgia and I was in North Carolina. I didn't know how to stay in touch. So I kind of fell out of it and went back into those thought patterns and just depression started seeping back in and just the negative thought style. And just to mention that I am a first believer from my background. I was the first born again from my family. I come from an Indian background, though my parents were Christian generations, I think before were Hindus. And then I grew up in Africa. So these two combinations are quite an interesting combination background, generational wise. So I didn't quite know I got saved at 17 and I didn't quite know that I had spirits because of that, you know, generationally and I never really knew how to catch my thoughts renew my mind. I would just go into negative thought patterns, automatically and not catch them and not realize that this was not honoring. So when I fell out from being held and went back into that thought presence, it was in 2019 that I had Googled Hardcore Christianity at Google Deliverance Center and Deliverance Ministries and I found Hardcore Christianity. But I was always so skeptical of things, churches and stuff. So I didn't go right away. And then my sister, because I kept hitting depression, my sister Googled and found the same place and suggested that I go try it out. And I said, okay, so one day in 2019 and November of Friday night, I walked into Deliverance Center and I sat behind like I normally do. And I didn't go to the front. It was brother Mike teaching on familiar spirits. And I thought, wow, I never hear this in church. Never heard a sermon on a teaching on familiar spirits. Didn't even know there was a thing like that. Okay, this is interesting. So it intrigued me because when I checked him out, counselor and then the topics he was teaching I never ever heard them anywhere. And then I was going to leave when Kelly Beck came over to me and asked me if I need prayer. And I said, sure, but I don't know where to start. So she asked me to start for my childhood and I started and bam, she started praying for me. And I was in Deliverance for about an hour and a half or so, I don't know how long she was with me. And that day I walked out and I literally felt different. I knew that somethings had come off of me and I felt revived, you know, one of the things that got me was I didn't understand like Jen that I had spirits. I did come across being held before but it didn't dawn on me that they were literally in me and could be coming back and all of that stuff. So that day when I got relieved, I began to experience a little bit more of hope, joy, answers to questions that I had been wandering around for a long time wondering why is it like this, Lord, I've been a born again for so long. You know, how come I'm struggling with these things? How come I can never really get through? Why am I so defeated all the time? And I got a lot of answers to a lot of questions that I was in, you know, struggling with and that gave me a peace and a joy that I never had for a while, at least as a Christian. And then I began to, one of the things brother Mike taught was the importance of praying in tongues. So I had put that on the shelf for a while and never really picked it up. I didn't really practice it. And I took it back up and started running with it. Like every day I would go into praying in tongues. I started maybe about 10 minutes because I used to, I was working then 20 minutes then it was 30 minutes then sometimes an hour and sometimes that even gone to two hours and my life drastically changed when I started praying in tongues. I was able to catch some things that I never caught and I was able to not react like I used to react. I was able to see things and perceive things differently. I was able to hear the Holy spirit a little bit more. I was able to calm my emotions a little bit more and I noticed that whenever I don't pray in tongues as much I tend to fall back a little bit on my emotional side and not catch certain things. So it's really helped me and I think that's where, I don't know if I'm answering all the questions you wanted, but I think from where I started to where I'm still a working progress and there's still fears and battles with fear but I think I've faced it a little bit more differently now than when I first started or before deliverance. I actually recognize I'm dealing with a spiritual war, a warfare, a spirit and deal with it a little differently and it's really helped me come through some real big huddles. Am I on point or? No, that's good. I love that you talked about your experience with praying in tongues and how that made a huge difference in your life. And that's one of the things that we have to incorporate while we're going through our spiritual recovery, we have to do that more than ever.  And so if you pray in tongues, your spirit will pray the perfect prayer. It'll be on point every time and it bypasses your emotions and it works 100% of the time. I know when I was going through walking every day and praying in tongues for quite a long time, I would get these thoughts in my mind, that doesn't mean anything, you're not doing it right. This isn't working, you should quit.  And I would feel foolish sometimes because I would have the thought, what if I am just babbling? What if this is nothing? And then I had to make a decision and say, I don't care. Maybe it is, I'm gonna do it anyway. I don't care, I'm just gonna keep pressing on. And I'll tell you what, I've had a cold the last week and I haven't been able to pray in tongues and I have missed it. And so yesterday was my first day that I could take a walk again and pray, not that I don't pray in my house, but that's where I'd like to do it. And I was like, oh, I missed you. And it really, the enemy wants to steal that from us, right? Whether it's a cold sore throat or difficult relationships in our home or with coworkers, he wants to steal our prayer language. He wants to steal our praise and our worship. So, yeah, no, that's good, Renju. And so, Renju, did you stop some activities in your life when you were going through the beginning of stages? Not exactly. I was working and so I had a full-time job and I just spent a lot more time than I normally did in prayer. I did some self-deliverance myself. I read a lot. I really spend time looking, pigs in the parlor, the books that were in the bookstore. I spent a lot of time reading because I'm a reader. So I read a lot in between. And then when God gave me a break with work I spent a lot of time doing self-deliverance for a little time period. And then I took breaks, it wasn't like Jen, eventually it was like two or three times a week, not over-concentrating. I did realize you can get overboard with it and just be super saturated only on deliverance. But that's not the only thing that is in the word. I mean, it's one-third, but it's not a full diet. So you can overboard on anything. So I learned how to get a balance to it. And I still got attacks with depression and negative thoughts, but again, I was realizing slowly and steadily that these are spirits and I need to attack them that way. So I still sometimes fall into it, get back up, repent, get back up and get going. So it's a daily thing. It's a journey. And I'm learning that you can't run ahead, just enjoy the journey with the Lord. He takes a step by step and he is in the details of our lives. So I think that he knows every detail, he knows every page of the book of our lives, our lives are numbered, our days are numbered.  And we just have to relax and know he's got us. Amen. That's right. Amen. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. So we'll take a break right now. Does anyone have any questions? All right. Yeah, so you can forgive him, meaning, you know what? I'm wiping the state clean. I'm not going to hold that against you, but that doesn't mean I have to trust you. Right. And remember, the Bible tells us to be as wise as circumstance, but gentle as a dove. That also tells us to guard your heart. Yeah. And so when there's someone in your life who is emotionally hurtful, emotionally causing harm, you have to guard your heart. And just because they apologize, you know, they go through the cycle of apology and hurt, apology and hurt, you have to get a clue and say, okay, I have to stop bringing that person into my heart. I have to draw a boundary.  Yeah. Emotion, right? Yeah. It sounds like he's maybe incapable of loving you. Because of his spirit, his, you know, his issues, but you can forgive him and say, well, I know those are demons causing him to act that way and it's causing me hurt and harm, but I can forgive him because I know it's not him. No person, you know, without the influence of demonic spirits want to hurt another human. Yeah. We don't, we don't. And so it's always that influence. And then of course we agree with those spirits and then we end up hurting others, but it's a lot easier to forgive somebody when you realize they have help. They have help to hurt you. But you can honor your dad by being respectful, right? Yeah. I love dad, happy birthday. I hope you have a great day. Goodbye. You know, it doesn't mean you have to, you know, spend an hour with them, but you show respect and you show honor in that way.  You'll figure that part out. Yeah. So, and I think it also talks about, you know, sometimes we have to apologize. I know many of us have talked to our parents and said, you know what? I just want to apologize for being such a crappy teenager. He wasn't, he left my mom when I was five. So he was not in my life. He was in a round. So, you know, maybe you're, well, what I'm saying is sometimes we have to apologize to our parents for dishonoring them. Yeah. Yeah.  I was really argumentative teenager and difficult to get along with. I just want to acknowledge that on my part. And I always say, mom, please forgive me. I didn't say anything about how difficult she was, but I acknowledged my part, right? And so that's what that part on the Miracle List is talking about. Okay. Thank you. I hope that helps. Yes, thank you. Is Ellen on? Who else here? She was on a second ago. Hey, Ellen, are you available?  Oh my gosh, I'm looking for you. Hi, Ellen. Yeah, I'm not sure what to say. Do you want to ask me specific question? Yeah, yeah, I'll take it. I don't, I don't. So your, your life was a bit upside down before you discovered deliverance, right? Yeah. And the first time that you had a real deliverance, was it when you came to the center years ago? That's a good question. I had gotten some deliverance before going there, you know, over the phone or, yeah, on Zooms, I think, but the deliverance I got when I went there was quite significant, more, you know, more or so. And so after you came to the center and you got that major deliverance, right? Yeah.  My, hold on, I have to turn the heat off. Hold on. Sorry, all of a sudden, Nick, I'm really warm, probably because I'm having to talk. Yeah, it was pretty significant. I was, gosh, I was on a lot of medication before I went to the deliverance center. So I was able to get off of my medication, not just disclosure, I did not just, I did not just cold turkey my medication. So it was a process, but that definitely helped with getting off of the rest of the medication. And when I got home, I was able to like concentrate again. Like I had not been able to read. I was an avid reader when I was younger. And then when all of this upset happened, you know, like six or seven years ago, I couldn't concentrate even to watch a movie. I could hardly even sit through a movie. So when, anyway, when I got a measure of deliverance, that was one of the first things I was so excited about was that I was able to actually start reading books again, like, you know, concentrate and read through a book again. So that was really nice. So, and my sleep, you know, my sleep was really disrupted. So that started improving the pain, the chronic pain that I was in, that started improving. So yeah. Yeah. Is there anything that you deleted from your life during that time?  And I think what happened actually is that I didn't make the necessary adjustments. And so then it was like three or four months after I got home, things started rapidly unraveling again. And I couldn't figure out what was happening. And so looking back on it, yeah, I didn't, I didn't, sorry, I really didn't want to do the work, you know, like I really wanted somebody else to do the work for me. So, yes, it's been a long journey. And I feel like I probably could have shortened, you know, shortened the, yeah, this adventure had I stayed on the path, if that makes sense. And so now this past year, I really got serious about getting rid of the distractions, like that scripture, what is that scripture that says, like throwing off every weight, like everything that holds us back, right? Like everything and everything that could be cause, you know, yeah, hold us down, so to speak. So that has really been my focus is, yeah, just getting rid of anything that could be a stumbling block. If I may, so I know Ellen pretty well. And one of the areas, Ellen's a very social person and she enjoys people, she loves people and she enjoys people. She likes to do things, she's active. And one of the things that has been very, very hard for her is to unplug a little bit, to slow down. So that she can really spend time with God and why am I here with Holy Spirit? That's been a very big challenge. And I can relate because when I first met Mike Smith, I met Deliverance, I too had a very busy life. And so I went through a measure of Deliverance and then I went right back into all the activity. And I didn't know what I could add back into my life and what I couldn't. And so she's talking about things that she had to delete, these distractions, these the sins that so easily entangles. And it's not like sin, like fornication or drugs or sorcery, but these little foxes that kinda grab a whole nip in our ankles that distract us. And so is that accurate, Ellen? Yes, and the other thing that just came into my mind was just learning how to be still. That's been very challenging for me because I am just such a doer by nature. Like I just, as I've mentioned when I've shared before as I was very performance driven and just always, like I always had to be doing something. And I think it was, I used a lot of this for escape so that I wouldn't have to deal with the, again, deal with the hard things, so to speak. So yes, finally, again, I think it was this past year that I finally started setting the timer on my phone for like, I think I started with five minutes and that was a huge victory for me just to be able to sit in quiet for five minutes. And it was a combination. So I would spend, I would set the timer and I would pray in tongues for five minutes and then I would sit in silence for five minutes and wait on the Holy Spirit. And so now I try to go like, I had to work my way up. So now it's like, I'm able to do like 15 minute increments now and for like, for me it's, I like to do it multiple, as opposed to like trying to cram everything in, you know, in the morning or in the evening, I try to do these little like timeouts throughout the day. And so that is helpful for me to, yeah, stay grounded. You know, I'm gonna say this, there's a handful of us who we went so far in living our own lives and the enemy stole from us so severely that we ended up losing our careers. We ended up losing our job. Some of us, and some of you ended up on disability. Some of you, you lost everything. And so when you went through the beginning stages of the deliverance, you didn't have a job. You didn't have anything. You didn't have any money. You didn't have any money to go do stuff.  So some, there are a handful of people who that's their story, okay? Now, the rest of you, you're not there and I hope you never get there. And I'm gonna just say, hey, take this as a wake up. If you're playing the fence, if you're on the fence with the Lord, the enemy will come for you in a very serious way. And his goal is to take your mind and everything that you have, that's his goal for you. So you cannot play both sides, the world and Jesus. You can't play both sides. You have to be all the way in for Jesus, okay? You have to be all the way in for living for righteousness. You have to be all the way in, okay? So don't get yourself in a deception that thinks you can do both, okay? That you can live, you know, yeah, I'll, you know what? I'll go to happy hour and then on Saturday morning, I'll just go to deliverance and get the spirits out that I took in both into the box on Friday night. If you start to do stuff like that, you will end up sicker than you ever imagined, okay?  We're just, you know, we're together and I don't know, we're not gonna get married, but yeah, we slipped a couple of times and you know, don't play that game. Don't play that game because you will fall.  You'll lose it, okay?  Well, put those things to death and let God give you new hopes and dreams, okay? You gotta surrender them, surrender them to the Lord. All right, so I don't know who needed to hear that for somebody too. So, Ellen, was there anything else that you wanted to share? No, just nothing immediate, but just reiterating what you just said is that that's exactly what happened to me, just living that life on the fence for so many years and finally it took me down, completely took me down. So yeah, I highly recommend getting off the fence. Yes. All right. All right, Stephanie, right there, there she is. Yeah, I'm here. What do you want me to share? Yeah, just showing us like when you started going through deliverance, like hardcore deliverance, when you started going through hardcore deliverance, what are some of the things that you had to delete from your life? Well, one of them was because I had the rejection demon. When I first came to hardcore, there is an ex that I have when I was younger. He moved back to town and he said he was a Christian and he started giving me all this attention and saying that he still loved me and all of this and me because I had that rejection demon, I just wanted someone to love me and I would hear that thought all the time, I just want someone to love me. And so when he started giving me all that attention, I got like an emotional soul tie. I got involved emotionally and even though like I knew a part of me didn't wanna be married. Again, I didn't wanna get into another relationship and I wanted to serve God the rest of my life. The other part of me wanted someone to love me which was the rejection demon. Cause I didn't know that I already had all the love that I needed. And so I really needed someone to be hard on me and so I emailed brother Mike about it and he told me to drop the guy and no one ever told me that before. And sometimes you receive from a loving way and Mike can't tell me that was someone loving me enough to tell me drop the guy, focus on your deliverance and I needed to hear that from someone. So I dropped that cut off all contact and it was really hard for me. And before that, the enemy was using that you'd always send another guy, I love you, I wanna be with you, you know. And so this last time when I cut off contact and I went through a lot of deliverance after that when I got delivered from that rejection that was drawing these men in, I never had another, the enemy never sent me another guy and I never, and I was my true self where I don't wanna be with a guy, you know what I mean? I don't wanna be married again. I'm perfectly content living the rest of my life for the Lord, you know. And that was truly how I felt, but I had the demon part of me that was affecting me from doing that. Yes, amen. That's a, I had to do the same thing. Recently, I will share this, I think I understand a little bit about what it means have the Lord as your husband. And even if you're married, you can still, the Lord can still be your husband. And so I'm trying to think about what it is, looking for something. And if you've ever been married, when you need to find something, the first thing you do, you go, honey, where is, you'd ask for help. Where are, where's my keys? Where did I put my whatever, right? It's very easy. You just, you need to find something and you call out to your husband and ask for help. Well, ask the Lord. Today, I can't even remember what it was I was looking for, but I was like, oh, where is it? And then my eyes just fell right on it.  I was desiring, I was desiring a new, something new to wear. And I went today and got my haircut. And of all things, my hairdresser pulls out this, this like jacket shirt. She's like, this is too big for me. Do you want it? I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even have to go shopping. And it was just like a little desire in my heart, like, I want a new thing. And today it came from very, and so that's just a small example of how God is like a husband. He's a provider and he will help you. He's a helper. He's a provider. He's an encourager. Like tonight, he's reminded me, hey, I'm a good father. And I love you. He's encouraging us. And that's what a husband is to be. And some of you have a husband who's like that, but some of you don't.   I never knew. I didn't grow up with a dad in the house. My mom was single. I never knew a man's voice in the house. I never knew that. I didn't know how it was supposed to work. I didn't even know how they're supposed to act, really. And so little by little, I think the Lord is kind of showing me like, this is how a husband's supposed to act. They're helpers. They encourage. They are great dad to, you know, they love. They protect. And so anyway, I have a long way to go on this understanding. But yeah, the enemy, because of the death of my kids, oh, so many wrong men in my life. And so now I'm like, no, the Lord's gonna satisfy me. So I'm not falling for that trick anymore. And I had to delete a man too when I started to believe it. I was actually engaged to be married. And I broke the engagement to focus on the Lord and let him heal me and show me the right direction. So anyway, I'm gonna finish up now and I'm...


Hi everyone, Joe for jaspyscasewrakes.com coming at you with a team random that will fill up pristine and tier one The current pick your teams that are on the site. We only sold 17 spots Or actually we sold 16 spots outright Because we're giving away a free spot if you're one of the first 11 right there Then we'll double up the names and we'll match you up with either a tier one team or a pristine team So big thanks to the early birds here the first 10 or first 11 that is So here's the first 11 for the chanted an early bird spot. So let's do that first So name on top after three and a two five times and then another dice roll for the other randomizer, but this is just for the early bird spot one two three four and five and There you go. Gary after five times You were an early bird gets the worm extra spot going your way Now we can double up your names and then we'll match you up with either a tier one team or a pristine team other dice roll Right here, and it's gonna be four and a one five times good news Everyone gets something now the teams are are sorted are ordered from from the highest price to the lowest price But you're still getting something four and a one five times One two three four And a one fifth and final time So what's the what's the top team here angels mariners raised tier one? Those are the top three So after five times Everyone gets teams. That's the good news There you go Steve the X line Carl very nice some nice teams there Everyone gets something There you go and we'll put a little rooftop symbol next to your name So you know you won that spot in this team a random Carl with the angels in tier one Josh with the mariners in tier one Steve with the rays in tier one Gary with the Braves in tier one Steve Burch Red Sox Royals Nationals in tier one Steve with the Dodgers Josh with the Padres Carl with the Orioles and White Sox Steve Burch with the Blue Jays in tier one And all the tier one teams first Carl with the Cubs in tier one and the X line with the Giants in tier one pristine Steve angels and Yankees in pristine nice Gary with the Mariners in pristine The X-Line with the Rays in Pristine, Steve with the Royals in Pristine, Carl with the Braves, Josh with the Dodgers Pirates in Pristine. The X-Line also has the Red Sox in Pristine. And here are the rest right here, Carl with the Blue Jays in Pristine, Gary with the Astros in Pristine, Carl with the Orioles, Barry with the Cubs, Carl with the Tigers, Barry with the Giant, Steve with the Reds, the X-Line with the Marlins, Gary with the Twins, Brewer's Diamondbacks and Rangers all in Pristine. Alright, thanks, gang. We'll see you in the next couple videos for those breaks.


edition of DEFCON. Those are the hours that start at 8 and never end. My name is Ophio Arkin and I will be speaking today about infrastructure discovery. Usually a lot of people at DEFCON talk about how to break things, how to search cool stuff, how to take something and to break it. Most of the people that I know from the world that actually do network security, they are in charge of how they maintain their stuff. This talk is basically going to speak about what kind of knowledge and how we get it from an enterprise network means that how do we acquaint ourselves with our users, how do we acquaint ourselves with the machines that operate on the network and with actually what is being done on the network. Usually if you look at the DMZ then the DMZ is usually well fortified. We have most of the things are already there. Most of the firewalls that we have can block 90%, 95% of full attacks. We can put another system where like 99% protected so the guys that understand how to do defend themselves, they're actually pretty good doing that. Usually it's not that hard to do that. You just need to understand what you need to do, what you need to defend. That's sometimes another interesting question. The talk will be, well I'll try to do it really fast so they can take one of those walls down and have the bowl here. We're going to talk about why do we need infrastructure discovery, why active network discovery and passive network discovery are not that good and what can we do and I will show you, demonstrate you a new agentless real-time approach that enables us to have real-time information about our infrastructure and to allow us to do modern odd thing. A bit about myself, I'll do that pretty fast. I'm the chief technology officer for Insightix. I'm also the founder of the security group. Most of you know me from my previous work, ICMPO since it's scanning, X-Probe 2 and other things that I've published along the years. I'm also a member of the voice over peace security alliance. Let's go. Okay, so you have an enterprise network. It's large, it's complex, a lot of things operate there. Usually it may be combined from multiple networks in different locations and basically there are a lot of nice things that operate on the network. Some of those are mission critical. Mission critical is a nice definition that says a lot of things to different people. At the end of the day we need those systems to work in order not to have some financial damages, another nice definition. But at the end of the day mission critical means that if those systems are down or if those systems cause some kind of a problem it means that other systems suffer. So for some mission critical it means the servers, the networking gear and for others it means also the desktops. If you had suffered an outbreak of a worm that hit a desktop and that desktop brought down your switch, access switch or other things on your network then that desktop is mission critical to you. IT basically needs to take care of a lot of things that are actually important for the regular operation of the network. We need the network to be available. We need the elements to be available. We need to maintain the security of the network and of course the availability of whatever is on the network. So basically IT has ton of work. Usually the CIO will come through IT and say well you have enough people that needs to maintain what we have, just invest in smarter management systems. So IT needs to identify what are the assets, what they mean to the organization, their properties, their roles, the different interdependencies, what will happen in one of them will fail, how that will affect the IT organization and the business process to understand the importance of those assets. A lot of boring stuff which at the end of the day is very critical to be done because if we're not doing this we don't stand a chance to actually run an IT organization and we have here a lot of things that relate to provision the network, provision the elements, know what we're defending, knowing what we're managing. Detecting troubleshoot issues, defend our assets, eliminate those systems to actually pose the risks to some of our assets, and of course do other things like prepare for the worst, do disaster recovery, disaster recovery management and other other things. The problem, the problem is that in order to do all of those things we need information. We need information about the network layout. How does our network look like? Yeah, another worker at your local burger store. Okay, so we need to know the topology. We need to understand what are our resources and we also need to understand what are the elements that we actually need to manage and to secure. So at the end of the day we need intimate, complete, and accurate knowledge about our infrastructure and without this kind of knowledge it will be, well, we can't actually do management and security. The problem is that the information that we need is either unavailable, partial or incomplete. This is because this kind of information is not easily produced. Some people in our organization may have that information but they left. Some of this information is dynamic and some of the systems that we use in order to maintain that information are insufficient. So at the end of the day, if we don't know the network, we can't actually manage or secure it. This brings us to this slide, the result. The result is that we always work at the 80-20 rule and you know what? The 80-20 rule is really bad when you do management for networking and for security because you know what? The 80% that I know of, you know what? I'm managing them right. I'm doing all the things that I need to do for them right.  Those that actually pose the highest risk for me. Well, the highest risk can come from a compromise. The highest risk may come from auditing perspective. The highest risk may come from a lot of things but at the end of the day, I don't have control. I cannot understand what I have and I have full sense of control and full sense of security. And when I have these, then it's all downhill from there. So along the years, there were several technologies that were trying to solve the issue of knowing the network. Basically, what they were trying to do is they were actually trying to have the topology of the network, understand what are the elements that reside on the network, what their properties are and they maintain this information up to date. It seems that this is a definition that it's very small, right? It contains everything but it has a lot of problems in it. Doing network topology, if some of you are using network management systems that claim that they do this, it's a hard thing to do. It's not that easy. It's not that easy to say which switch is connected to another if you do not use CDP or other proprietary protocol. It's also not easy to produce the information about what actually lies on the network. So let's start with one of my favorites, Active Network Discovery. With Active Network Discovery, basically, we send some packets to the network and we hope that we'll see some responses from those elements on the network and sometimes according to those responses or the lack of, we will drew some conclusions about those elements. An Active Network Discovery system will try to get information about the inventory, meaning the elements, their properties, information about network services, the configuration, the topology and if this Active Network Discovery is able to do from their ability assessment. Usually, it will be installed on a single location on the network, although you can install it in multipoints and we'll scan the network from that point. The way this can actually work is that an Active Tool can be fed with a list of IP addresses it needs to scan or a list of networks it can scan or that the Active Network Discovery tool will try to do that automatically by querying local elements and drawing that information from them. For example, HP OpenView, Tivoli and other management systems go to the router, detect the routing table, understand there are other networks they might need to operate against and continually trying to detect other routers on the network taking more and more IP address ranges and from there trying to enumerate all the information about the network. The strengths that Active Network Discovery has mainly relates to the ability of Active Tools to completely control what they're asking for. They send the stimuli out so they can understand well we need this information from that element we need that information from another and they can also control the initiation of the scan and also they can control the pace the queries are being sent. Technically speaking, if we're not having any kind of obstacles between the Active Network Discovery to the target and Active Network Discovery system can entire IP address ranges. The weaknesses are a lot. I'll try to do something with the refresh rate pretty fast. Sorry if I can fix this. No. The weaknesses, well the first one is that the discovery that will be done will be incomplete this is since network obstacles on the network will prevent packets to reach their targets and if you have network-based firewalls, host-based firewalls, those Windows XP-SP2 that you installed and forgot that by default they have firewalls and now you're unable to manage not enable devices load balancers and other things that you put on a network will prevent the packets to reach their targets and basically this will create black holes of information. So from a network that has a lot of a lot of elements you'll discover that you have a very small network. Well it's not true. Sometimes you'll need some type of information to be enumerated from those elements in order to drew your conclusions and you know what sometimes those services will not be operating on those elements and sometimes there will not be willing to speak to you. So for example if you need information from the Windows remote registry and you have the administrative rights for the domain but the system is not a member of the domain guess what it will not help you. Also with SNMP if you don't know the community strings of those routers that you want to enumerate the end of the day you can't do the information from there as well. The process is very slow. It's time consuming. By the time you get the information the information that you get is obsolete. This is because it's not real time. It also consumes a lot of network bandwidth and it might take some elements down when it's actually doing the process. This is because sometimes it will over helm the networking elements between the scanning system to the target with the amount of traffic it produces and will cause an out of service condition. So some folks went and say well you know what we can do scanning in at off peak hours will take our active network discovery systems or management systems will take that to off peak hours and that will do it. Well wrong because you can't actually define what are off peak hours and sometimes during off peak hours there are some crucial processes that actually are being done like backup, restores, some reporting on your databases. So actually the process of probing those elements might not actually can be quantified to a certain time and sometimes it may take longer than you actually know. Telecom company that I know runs HPOV against 4000 devices and takes them 24 hours to complete the scan. This is absolutely no no if you're doing that against your operation network. So there are others who said well you know what we'll do the scan faster. So we'll narrow the time that the scan needs to be done and we'll finish it faster. Well it's a good thing in theory. How many of you know Nmap? How many of you used Nmap? Cool. So someone can tell me what's the usual time that Nmap scans an element on a local network. Three seconds. How many packets does it send? 1500. So let's see. If I scan my network three seconds per element 1500 packets that's a very bad thing to do. Try that on your local printer. Believe me my printer doesn't that cannot withstand that kind of faster scan. So whenever someone from my engineering team goes and use Nmap by mistake or I know that I can't print so I need to go to the printer, power it off, power it on and then use it and then see who's the engineer that was trying to play with the network discovery on my network. So at the end of the day this will cause disruptions on your network. Scanning faster is not the solution and we go to the stability issues which are the major ones who basically what those will cause. They will cause your machines to be unstable like print servers, printers, other elements that cannot withstand a lot of traffic and all of those will at the end of the day will be the line of service. It doesn't help if I play with it even. Sorry about that. This is because either the pace of the scan, the usage of non-RFC compliant packets, the type of information enumeration you're using. So if you're thinking that you can do network topology by taking the ARP tables from the routers believe me this is something that you do not want to do. You make the routers choke, you don't have connectivity to nowhere and this is the last time that you will run an active tool on your network because your CIO either will fire you or will tell you this tool does not run on my network anymore. Some folks just forget that when they do invulnerability assessment they shouldn't use those tests that actually cause null service. It's a bad thing. Against production machines it's not a good thing as well. So sometimes the stability issues will arise just because there's the element between you and the scanning and the scan target cannot withstand what you're doing. If you remember some of the old checkpoint and out of services where someone's scanning from the internal network, someone on the other end what will happen is that all these state tables will be filled with information that will wait for the time out for connections but the state table is full it cannot handle other legitimate connections so what you have is a perfect amount of service to someone from and the inside doing a pen test did. Also switches there will be overheld by the number of connections and they will die. Believe me it's very nice to for example I'll remember I'll mention that later. If you span too much on a Cisco 3550 it's a party going on.  You should see that. So at the end of the day the result is that some of the networks you have maybe declared is active scan free. You'll never be able to scan them at the end of the day because all of those other admins, the app admins, the network admins will come and say well we can't do this because you know that at the end of the day I'll have the null services and I don't want to do that in my production machine. So there's a lot of production networks that are unable to to be scanned because of these things. Nothing I do it helps me with this. So we have some parts of your network unable to be scanned because people are fear about active network discovery tools or previous history has proven them right about that. So some people suggested that scanning active scanning can be done in a different way. Let's see. Let's have multiple machines scanning from the same place. It's actually called a cluster. Guess what? This doesn't help you actually because the scan is now distributed among several boxes. They scan the network at the same time and they send actually more traffic to the network. So all of your denial of service conditions, all of your other problems are still there but nothing is really a plus. Other were suggesting to put a proxy in each IP submit or broadcast domain. This is actually a better idea because it can actually scan faster and you do not need to go through routers. But at the end of the day it doesn't give you any other advantage because still you need a pretty knowledge about what you have. The scan packet still might cause instabilities with the elements that are on the network and still if you have firewall devices, not enable devices in any other obstacles on your network, still those packets will not go through those. So basically active network discovery at the end of the day provides you with incomplete and in some of the cases inaccurate map of what you have on your infrastructure. Questions until this point. Because you have to understand what you have. The idea is that I don't want you to tell me what you have. I want my tool to discover it automatically. So if you have something that you are not aware of, the tool will understand what it is. It depends what you want to take out of it. I mean a segment of the day is nice but do you need the information to be current? If you need to manage something, if you need to be able to do something useful with the information that you uncover, you need this information to be real time and active network discovery cannot be real time. Yes. Exactly. Yes. This is absolutely true. So going fast to another area of invention. If you didn't know, passive network discovery systems were first introduced in the mid-1990s. Don't let other people tell you that they were invented last year. Basically passive network discovery system is merely a sniffer installed at the chalk point of the network processing packets that were sent by active network elements on the network. That's actually one of its biggest problems. So how can we look at the deployment? The system can be connected to the network using a tap like this one, a span port like this one, a span port at the access layer and span ports which are sent to one element. So what kind of information can be harvested? Basically the information is about active elements. Active elements that may shown up in the inventory, active network services, the distances that those active network elements are from the monitoring point, the client-based software, the network utilization information and if possible vulnerability information if this passive network discovery tool is doing. The kind of information or the purpose of collecting the information would be to build the layer 3 based apology which is fairly problematic because what you need is actually the physical network topology including the switches including the hosts to know exactly what you have and not just the layer 3 one, the network utilization information, some network forensics if the tool is able to do that for their ability discovery to create some context about the network and to feed that information to other systems. The strengths of the system is merely the ability of the system to be real time, to have no impact over the monitored network in the means that it doesn't send any type of traffic to the network and there it doesn't pose any kind of risk to the network when it runs on. It can process packets and can process information from all TCP AP layers and it can detect anything that is active on the network even if it's for a short time period. It can also detect elements behind network obstacles such as not-enabled devices, firewall elements and also can provide you with network utilization information and can also useful for network related anomalies. Who is using a system that it actually is based on anomaly detection? Cool. Are you happy with it? No right? Because my anomaly is not your anomaly, it's not his anomaly and that's the main problem. I'm not gonna go into it but I don't like it. Weaknesses. The first and biggest weakness of passive network discovery system is that what you see is only what you get. So if you have an idle service, if you have an idle system, if you have an idle whatever, that kind of element, that kind of information will not be uncovered. If the information does not go through the monitoring point, it will not be uncovered. It means that at the end of the day the discovery will be incomplete and inaccurate and non-granular because we cannot control what passes through the monitoring point. We cannot go to the client and say, you know what, we need you now to browse because we need the type of information that your browser sent to the network in order to build something or to conclude about something. We don't have any kind of control. We don't control the stimulus. So passive network discovery cannot detect all assets and cannot detect all protocols and services and cannot detect all ports. We cannot control what we see and in order for us to detect something, well, you know what, sometimes we cannot detect it because the kind of information that discloses the type of information that we need may never pass the monitoring point. So another interesting subject, this is actually getting worse.  Sorry. Where's the projector thing? You want to try it? No, he's recording. Yeah, you can do it. Nobody is here to press it so just feel free to, hey, it gets everything in all of those. Yeah, now we'll see. No, we don't want to do that. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. Did you party it on? Okay, I'll continue. I have some modifications to the presentation of the problem. So basically, when it tries to build the topology, what it will do, it will look at the distances, the elements are from the monitoring point, and it will look at the time to live field value with the packets it receives. And that actually would be the information that it will use in order to build the layer three topology. And you know what? Guess what? That actually does not help me because if I see where the elements are and how are they located, and their, what is their position according to my system, I cannot actually build everything because I will have islands of information and I will not be able to uncover the exact routers that actually operating on my network. And the only thing that I will be able to detect is those systems that actually send traffic to the network. Okay, now this projector doesn't work at all. That's nice. It's always the messenger. Okay. So if we have routing not done through the monitoring point, okay, it seems trying to work. Yeah, it's encrypted stream. I'm not mirroring and it's 640 by 480. I'll try to detect again. Oh, yeah. Refrigerate these like down like, yeah, buy something else. That's always works. See, I got an upgrade. So now I'm using Windows. Thanks for your help. A round of applause for the guy that donated his machine. Yeah, wanted back. Okay, here it is. Should I go to JD travel? Nice. Yeah, do it by telephone. That will be nice. Let's start from the beginning. This you can see it now, right? Okay. So basically, if this is my network, and I want that passive network discover system to draw it, this would be the result. Similar, right? I had this and now I got this. The problem is that I wouldn't be able to uncover the switches. I will not be able to uncover which machine is connected to which switch. And at the end of the day, I get this thing. I have a router, I have systems, but actually, it's not my system. It's not my network. The problem is that we need to be deployed as close as possible to the access layer. We need to be see layer truth traffic in order to do so. It means that we need a lot of moving boxes and to do this in a complete coverage. It means a lot of boxes and a lot of moving ports. So a lot of weakness is that I'm unable to monitor the state of network services. If this is an idle service, I cannot monitor it. If the service goes down, I cannot monitor it. At the end of the day, no service monitoring. So for example, I might see traffic for a certain port. I may declare it as an open. The guy would close the port. I will never know it. So the less obvious weaknesses are the fact that I can inject whatever I want to the network and guess what, the passive network discovery system will take it. The problem is that there is no way for the passive network discovery system to actually validate the information. This is since the only traffic it sees will go through the monitoring point. It can't do anything. So at the end of the day, that leaves it with the inability to validate it. The problem with it is that it's not only influencing the passive network discovery systems. If there are other systems which rely on the type of information that the passive network discovery system actually provides in order to draw other conclusions to do other things like network intrusion detection systems or even network intrusion prevention systems, that might be something which we don't want to be happening. This would actually cause the kind of information that will be taken from a passive network discovery system will cause other management systems that actually get the information from passive network discovery system to produce even more inaccurate and incomplete information when they process the information the system provides them. A very simple example to show you how this works. Let's say we have a Windows-based machine, like the one here, and a passive network discovery system might have some kind of counter or it might have some abilities to say well until I'm not detecting the operating system itself, I'm not trusting the information that actually is being sent through the different field values. So unless I understand that this is a Windows machine I'm not going to trust the time to leave field value. So what I've done is that I only played with one field. I played with the time to leave field value, I changed it from default value of 128 to default value of 126. And all in all that is still a valid Microsoft Windows machine but for the passive network discovery system it is now being located two hops down. I didn't do anything actually, I didn't move it, I didn't had to actually physically disconnect it from the place that it is being connected to. This is because passive network discovery system in these cases unable to go to the switch and ask the switch okay who's connected to you. So a simple example to show you that is very easy to trick the system. All you need to do is to understand the methodology and the the way the system works in order to just put some decoys and deception and remove your system. Other weaknesses that I have services mainly because you need to take the information, open it up and understand what you're seeing. Other examples of even remote code execution usually we'll see this against Ethereum which is a great tool one of the best network analyzers out there but some remote code executions possible against it in its different versions. So as some of you was in charge of a network and I had a problem, I had a problem that I couldn't understand what I have, couldn't understand what I need to defend. I couldn't understand where are my elements so I can understand what are the differences that I need to do. I cannot build walls without understanding first what I need to defend. I've actually been doing this for the past several years and actually analyzed whatever there is to analyze regarding active network discovery, passive network discovery and actually figured out that both of them will never help you if you want real intimate knowledge complete and accurate about your infrastructure. Another interesting point is that there is many theoretical researches out there that actually they cannot be working on live environments, real world environments. If you remember the NAC researchers, those are good for paper, they don't really work on the real world unfortunately. So the goals of the research were you have this kind of complete and accurate information, you have it in real time, you do not have agents to detect and react to changes in real time and basically not allow someone to send decodes that will be taken but to understand that we have them and to ignore them and to cover the entire IP address range of a network and of course to have some other things like topology which is really important. So what I've come up to is with a technology called dynamic infrastructure discovery. Basically this is a technology that combines tightly integrates actually between active and passive network discovery and by tightly integrating between them it has new discovery abilities that are not able to be made with each and every one of those if you use them solely. This technology actually is adjustable to any type of network that you are using. This is because it is able to balance between the information that is being harvested from a passive link to the amount of traffic it needs to send through an active link. It means that it works by listening to traffic that goes through a certain monitoring point on the network. It starts to build profile of the elements, data profile of the elements that's working on the network and after a certain time had passed and it seemed that some pieces of data that were not being collected or there are some pieces of data that cannot be collected through using passive means it's actually calling the active site and surgically inserting packets into the network in order to get the missing pieces of information. So for example if you want to know where your elements are you need to talk to the switch and do that passively or if you want to validate the type of information that you have seen passively you do that actively. So at the end of the day it balances between the type of information that it sees going through the monitoring point which can be good, can be bad and can be great. It all depends on the time of the day that that you operate on or that you are at. For example when your users are coming to work at 8 o'clock, 9 o'clock everything is working right. They do email, they browse the web, everything is fine. 12 o'clock everybody at lunch nothing works. 6 o'clock everybody works. A lot of elements basically disappear from the network because people shut down their machines and go home. 2 a.m. you might see a lot of backup activity on a network so at different times of the day you see different things on the network that you are able to take different things from them about the elements but at the end of the day you need that information to be complete. So the balance comes from using the active site surgically probing. Other things that are unique for example you can detect what are the guest machine of a certain host machine of VMware or any virtual machine. You're able to tie them together. It's easier to detect not unable devices and wireless access points using this technology. Basically anything that any piece of information that can be gathered either passively or actively can be gathered using this technology. You can build your asset management. You can do physical network topology because you are able to take the information that comes from the passive side combined with the information you are able to take from the switches and combine them into physical network topology where you show where the host has actually connected the switch connectivity and the routers. This is something that you can actually work with. You have a real-time change detection. You operate in real time because you have that from the passive side. You don't require any agents to be installed on the machines because your monitoring point provides you with all the information in the world that you have. Already talked about this. One of the things that I like about this is that you are able to triangulate between user host and location. One of the biggest problems of managing and securing enterprise network is the inability to locate or the inability to say who's the exact user that actually doing this and where it's actually his machine is being located at. So when you have the physical location information, when you have the host name, you have the username of the actual user that's actually been using this, it's very easy to come to someone and say you are the one that actually did this and that because you have all the information that triangulates that user to do his machine. From using only surgical probing, this technology do not pose any kind of risk to production environment because you do not need to use lots of packets in order to probe elements on the network for getting the information from and therefore all the information is being either harvested passively or by using surgical active packets or the number of packets that actually insert into the network is very low. The packets are RFC compliant. There is no risk of using those against production environments. Some limitations, the only limitation that this technology actually have is that you can't really scan a network for 65,000 something ports so you might not uncover all the services that are actually working on that system. Some usages, I'm being brief because I need to finish. You have clear visibility into your infrastructure. Everything that is on the network is being detected from storage devices to host machines, to network-enabled devices, to wireless access points, everything. The accuracy level of the technology, let's say when we're doing OS detection is less than owed up to 5% of false positives. The ability to locate any device on the network, see its properties, see what it's where about, understand what it's been doing all done in real time is something that you need as a context. When you have physical network topology that you can locate everything and when you have the odd information that allows you to see whatever everybody or that particular element is doing you're able to understand what is happening and if there is a problem on the network you're able to locate it easily. So let's say that you're an admin and there is a new patch for a certain service. Usually what you'll do is you'll scan your network and understand where it is and try to understand what the service that needs to be patched first. When you have current and real-time information what you only need to do is just to have a search under your inventory for the open port, you get the list instantly so you save the IT hassle of going and looking for that type of information you instantly have the information that you need in order to work against and that saves you a considerable amount of time. You can take the information and feed it to other systems for example you can do target-based vulnerability assessment one of the biggest problems of vulnerability assessment tools is that they need to be to do active network discovery. So what you do is you're able to take a list of your Windows machines or Windows 2000 machines and instantly feed it to a vulnerability assessment tool and that vulnerability assessment tool may need to do only the Windows 2000 based test against those machines and that's it for it. So you actually are able to make those tools work better and solve the 80-20 problem for them by feeding them with the contextual information about the network. There's also the ability to baseline the knowledge about the elements that operate on the network because you see them all the time so you're able to actually say what's unauthorized and what's non-authorized because you see everything until this point if you're using an active tool like this gentleman had said if I do a scan once in 24 hours I can't do anything with the information because I don't see the changes there are some users that might bring their laptops from home and take it in between and I'll never know that they're actually existing. I think the most important thing about the technology about the internet dynamic infrastructure discovery technology is that you finally have control you can achieve control what you have because you understand what you have you understand the layout you understand what you have a strong auditing capabilities and you understand to use it for the first time and not just saying okay I have partial information I have complete information I have control I have everything that I need. Questions? Yes the gentleman here this is working if you want more details I will give it to you on the end of the presentation. Other questions? If you'll talk to me after the presentation I will answer the question. Yes the only switches that you actually know that they exist are core switches I mean in all the companies that I was talking to or working at or consulting to what they know is they have a firewall that connect them to the internet and they have those nice core switches because they cost them a lot of money and usually when you hook this up to the core switch you get all the information that you need from the core switch and you go from there. Sure it's sure it's something that you need to install on X number of places in a distributed manner in order to see the complete visibility because it needs to see traffic between layer 2 to layer 3 but in the end of the day you still see complete visibility say that you want to have an ids system an ips system they all have the same problem but this system actually can take traffic from multiple networks into one place and not just see one network at a time. If you have a layer 3 barrier that you cannot pass you need to install another system. Well when you have a management server you're able to connect everything and all the dots and you have a complete information about everything. Yes you must you must use SNMP to take information from the switches because there is no other way to understand where the elements are if you're not using SNMP. The idea is that you don't need to know the connectivity and you build the connectivity automatically using other algorithms. There are several researchers that were talking about how you build your topology by just taking the information from the switches and trying to connect the switches without using proprietary protocols. Some of them have some holes in it some of them are incomplete but at the end of the day you can learn a lot from those those researchers. What I did with these technologies you must understand where the elements actually are connected to and what you are able to do is just to say okay if this element is something that for example is unknown I am able to say which switch and which switch port is actually being connected to you can use that information and you can say okay I now won't go and tell that such and kill this port. The idea is to have the visibility. There are some switches that can send you an SNMP trap for example when the information about the switch MAC, excuse me the source MAC that is being registered to the port changes. Not all of them are able to do that. The new Cisco 2950 are able to do that but at the end of the day if you want to start to do log aggregation be my guest. I mean there are other you know products that do log aggregations and other open source tools but if you don't know what you're doing with information then it's just a big pile of logs. Yes. To set what? Yes it is possible in several cases to detect subs. Basically the issue is that if you have a port which you see multiple MAC addresses and is not connected to any other switch then guess what you have a hub of course that it might be a four port or six port or sixteen port but no more than that. A hub is merely a guess but if you don't have any other switch connected than a port you basically have a hub there. Of course you must you must you must be connected as as close as possible to the access layer in order to to do anything in networking and security these days. Yes, if if you're using TTL it means that you're going to fail. That's something very easy to change and you don't want to you don't want to use that. Look at the example that I put here. VMware you have you have two ways of doing that. You have a bridge mode and have NAT mode. Both of them you need to have different ways in understanding that you have VMware. I mean it's very easy to understand that an element is a VMware machine just by looking at the MAC address and it's VMware right but the the thing that you need to do is that you need to actually understand where it is being connected to and that's other algorithms that I I'm using to do that. Okay so they need to yeah one other question. No I this works against whatever you put and if you have VLANs that's not a problem. If this wasn't working with VLANs then I guess it was a major problem. It is working with VLANs with everything they have on the network. So I would like to thank you that you have stayed with me through all of the problems that we had today starting late, replacing laptops and staying up until five minutes to 9 p.m. Thank you very much for having me here. I enjoyed this.


Here's what happens when a nurse calls me and says, hey, your patient wants to leave against medical advice.   After this point, when you've deemed that a patient is competent, it's pretty easy. You give them a form that they sign and you document your entire conversation, of what you explain to that patient, and on the flip side, if a patient is deemed not competent, that's when you usually will call the psychiatry team or the security team to make sure the patient is not going to try to do something that harms way, because they clearly don't understand well enough of what they have going on, and that's not safe to go home. So again, by no means the most enjoyable part of being a doctor, but it does happen, I would say on a monthly basis, maybe one or two times for some of my patients. Some of them I know are already gonna leave against medical advice, because they've done it before, but again, don't take it as a personal defeat. If you want more insight in the life as a full-time doctor, make sure you hit that like, subscribe, and follow to get more content just like this one.