Okay, I have started the recording Jonathan. So I'm turning it over to you. Great. So I am going to start the meeting this is today is a Tuesday, October, the 31st 2023. This is a meeting of the elementary school building committee subcommittee on sustainability. And we have quite a lengthy agenda today.  No, I have it. I can, I can definitely share it and I can kind of keep coming back to it as we go. So very briefly. Oh, I need screen sharing. I think I just, I think I just gave it to you. And you did. Well done. Okay. So super quickly. And then we should probably just do a quick round of introductions because I think most people know most people. Okay, so update on the energy model. Review the energy code impacts. I think Tim and Rick are going to walk us through the current state of the design we're going to talk about the net zero checklist, talk a little bit about plug load management and it's different facets. I think I'm going to give us an update on the lead checklist and then we've got public comment. So that is what we're going to do starting with introduction. So, just so quickly Margaret would project manager with answer Kathy. I'm Kathy Shane, I'm chair of town council but also chair of the full committee and a member of the subcommittee. I'm sorry. Hi, Tim Cooper with the nisco project architect manager. Did we skip Jonathan. We skipped Jonathan are fearless later Jonathan. I'm Jonathan salvan. I serve on the general billy committee but I'm chair of this subcommittee. Rick. Rick Rice with this good design. Donna. Hi everyone Donna Dennis go we have Kevin Murphy impersonating Tim Cooper. Okay, Kevin Murphy before I free up there he's become Kevin Murphy. Kevin you're next. Hi, I'm Kevin Murphy from Thompson engineering with the electrical engineers on the project. And then I see Ali man Chaka. Hi, yes, this is element Chaka with early let's studio. I'm teaming up with Thornton Thomas city on the sustainability consulting. And Rebecca. Rebecca Ramla from Thornton Thomas. And then we've got Shelley Potter. So I pot or with our content doing the net zero peer review and I'll toss it to Jacob Ruckusen who's working with me. You did Jacob. What you said Jacob Ruckusen with new frameworks working with Shelley and peer review. Okay, so update. Did you get Rupert. Oh Rupert did I miss you I'm sorry Rupert. Only somebody misses me. I wanted to be Jacob can I be Jacob today. I'm Rupert I'm the facilities director for the schools. Alrighty, so update on the energy model team. Yep, after a quick sentence I'll hand it off to Ali. As we all know we submitted DD after a minor VE efforts. We are back on budget and part of that VE effort was due to adding a little bit of insulation and changing our glazing system to triple pain throughout the building. And those changes were required to meet the new energy code, which is evaluates the performance of the building in two ways once by energy by consumption and also by energy. By consumption and also by envelope performance and then that is what Rebecca and Ali are going to explain why we had to make those changes and the whole process. Yep. And I would say probably three ways. There's energy. There's Teddy. Hello. Rebecca, do you want to pull up the sides. Thank you have the latest version. Sure. Thank you. Can you see those. Yeah. Okay, great. And so, you know, as a reminder, we're working with net zero energy school. We have a target for massive incentives of an UI of 25 K BT per square foot per year. We're looking to jumping to four meet the new Massachusetts stretch code, which is really what has been driving a lot of the design decisions lately and we're also trying to maximize lead points. And so if we go straight into just giving an update on energy. Can you, can you just make it full screen. So yeah, yeah, sorry about that. Let me re share it went on my other screen. Oh no, as you could see on the other side, we're almost at 25, you know, we're like right under the 25. Yeah, that's way better. Thank you, Rebecca. We're right under the target of 25, which is great from, you know, utilities standpoint. If you can go to the next I think we want to look at the energy ones. Thank you, Rebecca. Okay, yeah, fabulous. And so we're right under the threshold of 25, which is great. This is with the addition of triple pane glass. The reality is that from an UI standpoint, going from double to triple the school has, you know, from a design standpoint, the glazing has already been so optimized that the from an UI standpoint, the triple pane glass, was in making that much of a difference, but as we'll talk about there, other aspects that we're making huge difference there. And so this is the proposed design at DD meeting the ever source goal, and there's a number there on how much I know Tim you've been working on just starting to figure out what the PV area is going to look like and so we're looking right now at a goal of annual generation of 810 megawatt hours per year. And if we go to the next just in terms of cost is just to show that with respect to the lead baseline, there's a significant amount of savings from a utility standpoint that this project is seeing and that reflects into lead points. That's how lead counts performance and so we're looking at 15 leads lead points right now, right at the edge because Rebecca correct me if I'm wrong, the 16th point would come if we hit 42% right. That's correct. So we're almost at 16, but we did not want to be overly optimistic, particularly since sometimes there's revisions to the model etc etc and so we're very comfortably at 15 and really hoping that we could get to 16 as we move along. If we go to the next, are there so let's maybe let's pause there are there any questions there on just that UI, and you know, many, you know, nothing's too new with respect to last time we talked I think. The only question I have this is Kathy. When I'm looking over at the mega kilowatts or the measure. Yeah, this is sort of for Tim I had asked it in our most recent pricing, we're basing the number of solar panels we need on that number is that correct Tim so that we're looking to generate that amount of at least that amount of mega kilowatts. That is correct so the be the total PV array including the canopies in the parking lot and the rooftop are just a little bit bigger than the 810 megawatts per year total production. There's still a little bit of tweaking in terms of the roof scape in terms of equipment and and fitting the PV around it and then making sure that the PV and the parking lot fits with the canopy that's why we're a little bit oversized and we also want a little bit of buffer always because it's based based on a typical year and some years right as we know we're not typical. So, that's a long answer to yes, this is the amount that we have Christen groupers kind of question as well. Thank you. I had a question on the lead slide with the purple bars. Yeah, I don't know on the label under triple pain. I don't quite understand why those numbers are this virtually the same. That's, don't pay attention at that we could have easily crop the first two lines. Yeah, and our chart that actually shows the breakdown for gas and electricity. So if there were any gas you would see a certain amount that's for gas a certain amount for that's for electricity and then the total would be the sum of both. And so in this case because this is an electric building, then the sum is really just the same as a total if that makes sense. Yeah, no, I get that the total is just the electric it's the line below that that says label. Oh, the label. Yeah, that's a typo. Yeah, no, that's totally I don't. Yeah, I don't even know. Good catch Rupert. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, let's take that and we'll check if that's in the report as well we'll just make sure to hide it. And then all of this really is not to say this is how much your energy is going to cost you because hopefully it's going to be a whole lot less. This is just because lead doesn't base it on energy usage they base it on dollar costs. Great. Which in this case is the same thing because there's no gas. And so it's exactly 41.9% reduction in energy and and and cost. Yes. And so Tim, I'm glad you mentioned the just the buffer on the on the, you know, key be on the megawatt hours for the PV array as a reminder this model uses as required typical what's called typical meteorological year data, which means that over the course of, you know, two decades. Some scientists came up with the most representative January the most representative February the most representative March, etc, etc and built an artificial weather file. That is the most representative in that sense, but of course, on a very cold year, then one would expect this energy to be higher than what we're predicting but maybe on a milder year. We will expect to see this energy go down and so, and so on average, you know, we're expecting that the building will be that zero but don't, you know, if you have a really cold winter just don't be surprised if, you know, if you're not exactly at zero and that's totally normal. And that's how all other schools are designed. All right, we can go to the next will be brief on the Teddy just in terms of of just information. The Teddy is the new path that we need to follow with a new stretch code in order to meet just meet the stretch code basically Teddy I think we've talked about it in past meetings. Given that as you probably well know, this project is the first in the state to actually go through this process for real. And so you've probably heard us talk about it you see Donna does nodding and saying yes, it has been it's been tough everyone. Basically what you need to look at is there is a heating Teddy threshold that we need to meet and a cooling Teddy threshold that we need to meet as a reminder, Teddy is thermal energy demand. I forget if it's intensity of in or index but kind of the same thing it's basically how much heating does the building need how much cooling does the building need it's slightly different to heating energy and cooling energy. But it's basically amount of heating amount of cooling. And so we need to meet those thresholds. The modeling piece has been extremely challenging, because the values are very, very low. And so the state has been publishing over the last year and a half modeling guidelines that we test and we're like, you know, this is an outstanding school we're still not meeting it. They're like, oh yeah no never mind you're right we forgot to put this stuff in the guidelines to now follow it and tell us if you're meeting it. So we do it again, and we go back and we're like we're five. We're doing everything we can and in fact, we could just beef up the installation to be, you know, three feet, and everything else and we're still not meeting it and they'll say oh yeah no no never mind forget it you know we forgot to put this in and so we have managed to somewhat align ourselves with the state or have the state align itself, align itself with itself and we have been able to make this project meet the teddy thresholds which is the first school meeting these thresholds. Getting to the teddy, I don't know, Rebecca if there's another slide with notes or I can just talk about. No. And so let's go back. So getting to the teddy involved. As I just briefly gave you a sense, a lot of modeling, just figuring out how to model it right the way the state wanted us to model it so I would say it's about 80% modeling, but there is a good 20% of design. You lost your sound. Oh, we can hear. We can hear Margaret. So here, Margaret. Margaret's lost us. I think I think it's a, I think it's a her thing. Yeah. This is the only are muting me, muting me. So, as I was saying, there's 80% of modeling and just trying to figure out how the heck we meet this, but there has been a good 20% of design. And so we have evaluated how to reduce the energy demand on the heating side and on the cooling side for this building in order to meet the state's intent. And that has been done through this latest phase by, for instance, cascading air from the cafe to the kitchen. And so we're reusing some of that air. That's a good thing. So we're conditioning a little bit less air on that front. We have reviewed and incorporated installation at the foundation, which is what was really making most of the difference to be clear. No insulation at this lab under floor, but just at the foundation. That's really what was making the teddy move most meeting our heating energy to be reduced the most. And there was a third thing that I need to remember, but in the meantime, Jonathan, you have a your hand up so I'll. So just for clarity for our selves but also for members of the public that may be watching this energy model and the energy modeling associated with the teddy compliance. Yeah, that is a parallel process with the, the kind of running energy modeling that's been happening or, or what, you know, just just for clarity. Great question. So the state per se to meet the stretch code, you only need to do this teddy. Right. So if you weren't looking at your energy, you didn't know how much energy things are going to cost you, you weren't looking at a lifecycle cost analysis of how much is this HVC option versus that one, etc, etc. So just do this teddy model for compliance. The challenge with this teddy model is that without getting too much into the weeds of the famous guidelines. It is, I'll just say not necessarily that representative of the actual use of the school so for instance there are predetermined schedules for this model so every single school in the state will need to use the same schedule unless of whether Fort River might be using the gym more in the evenings that another school right and so that's great from a state from stretch code compliance standpoint. But the reality is that if you want to make use of the energy modeling to get useful data in a way to know how you get to net zero and quantify that will you need to start entering information that is more relevant to your actual school than just blowing the specific guidelines and so there are two models that are effectively being run in parallel and where we're actually evaluating whether, for instance, I mean I wasn't kidding when I said, at some point we modeled three foot, you know, four walls just to see if we could meet the teddy from an EUI standpoint. We were just blowing the EUI to the roof. That was a strategy that yes could have maybe potentially helped us meet the heating teddy, but would have led our school to have an energy use intensity that would have precluded us from getting ever source incentives would have made achieving that zero energy so much more expensive because we would have needed much more PV array. So we have two models that go in parallel where we're keeping both in track. Does that answer the question. Yes, and kind of the follow up on that the, it's not the teddy model that's being used to model our compliance with the town's bylaw is a modeling technique that is more industry standard or industry for lack of a better way to put it. Yeah, so yeah, so I think in a way they're somewhat mutually exclusive. Yeah, and the state has chosen this teddy path to measure energy, not from a consumption perspective right so it's different and and they're doing it because they think they have like passive house like how much is this building going to hold the energy or your heat or your cooling thinking that if you if it holds all this heating or cooling then you don't need more but Yeah, in principle it makes sense but in actuality, it makes zero sense right so just as Ali was saying like we need it, it requires us to generate more energy to do what it is that they're asking us to do another way to look at it is. Yeah, if we had 50 bodies in a room, it was going to heat up the room so therefore you needed less right Ali that's a sort of like another way of looking at it so so to say it differently. Teddy doesn't look at this is not trying to measure the energy use. That's right. And I just don't want to I just want to clarify that the that we've made an effort, a very, very, very, very conscious effort to make sure that this building is consuming more energy because of the Teddy compliance path. And so it could have, if we just looked at the Teddy model, we would have, we would have had no idea of how much of school was going to consume. Right. And so having those two models has allowed us to make sure that we are, we've been tracking 24.9 for for for quite a bit now that we stuck to 24.9. Even with and so we had to find the strategies that would reduce our Teddy but wouldn't increase our EUA. And so the strategies I had mentioned now I have my notes here was a cascading air from cafe to the kitchen that was a really good one that allowed us to stay on track. And also the triple pane glass, as I mentioned, and so incorporating triple pane glass. Rebecca will talk a little bit more about that as well but it's something that we needed for stretch code compliance. We were meeting our EUI target for ever source incentives we were at 25. And the last is something that the stretch code kind of just pushed us over a little bit over the limit to meet these thresholds and meet the envelope requirements. So, so Tim, you were introducing three efforts in order to meet, you know, the high performance goals. So we've already touched on energy modeling EUI. We've already touched on Teddy and the model it's effectively an energy model that's just different. And so Rebecca now we'll talk on the envelope piece which is which is the last, the last bit and so there's a standalone envelope performance requirement. Once you've proven the Teddy that's not enough. You also need to do a calculation on your envelope and make sure that your minimum perform the minimum performance of performance of your envelope is met. And what's been interesting is that we've had to go back and forth. Yes, not I know. I know. We've had to go back and forth. This just kind of reflects how painful it's been to make sure that we're meeting the minimum envelope requirements, but we're also meeting the Teddy right at the same time and not exceeding the EUI so Rebecca will talk about the third leg of the effort and where we are there. Great. Thank you. Any other questions on the energy modeling before we move on. Great. Okay. Okay, for the building envelopes so there are in the code and the stretch code to pathways that can be followed there's a prescriptive path and there's a component performance alternative, which is what had been formerly known as the envelope backstop calculation. The difference between these two is very little. They both have to take into account thermal bridge do rating and that's clear field which is your wall, your, your vertical wall assemblies and linear thermal bridge do rating and point thermal bridges as well. And so there's very little difference between the two. In fact, there's an advantage to the component performance alternative in some ways because it's really allowing you to take into account all of your different assemblies into one big calculation. So what you end up with is a weighted you value so you're looking at the value of all of your different assemblies. What's called a side value which is the basically the equivalent for linear thermal bridge do rating. We're looking at all of the areas that all of these assemblies is linear thermal bridges are covering, and we're taking all that into account and we're generating a weighted you value. Which is different in the component performance. Excuse me alternative for the 10th edition of the code which we are complying with as opposed to the 9th edition, which is what in the past if you're familiar with this from the past. I have been taken into account. One of the big differences is that in the 10th edition, this calculation is looking only at above grade vertical wall assemblies. So in the past we have been looking at roofs, we have been looking at below grade vertical walls. In the 10th edition, we're only looking at the above grade vertical wall assemblies so that means looking at your curtain wall, your spandrel your windows and your opaque assemblies. So, in order to meet this calculation, basically there's a number it's point 1285 that we have to either meet or be better than and being better than means lower than that weighted you value. So to do that, in a way that balances also with what will work for the teddy as Ali just outlined. There's a few changes that we've discovered have to be made and what's really sort of driving some of these improvements is the impact of linear thermal bridging, which is something that had not been taken into account and in previous versions of the code. So this is sort of a new element that has to be taken into account and so there's a number of different strategies. We're also looking at many different things. So the first is targeting a curtain wall overall assembly performance, you value of point two four. Another one is targeting the fixed window overall assembly performance with a you value of point one nine and these are overall assembly you values not just center of glass so taking into account the frame and the glazing performance. Targeting an operable window overall assembly performance value a value of point three. So some of the other numbers I just outlined these are triple pain point three is sort of right on the line between what has to be double pain or triple pain so there's some some flexibility and to nisco has been exploring sort of all the options that they have and in terms of products that are available, limiting the spandrel. And then, in terms of the opaque wall assemblies adding one inch of closed cell spray foam insulation inside the metal studs going from two inches to three inches and adding one inch of continuous insulation outboard of the metal studs going from three inches to four inches. In addition to all of these changes, improving linear thermal bridge details is an ongoing process. And the last element just has to do with for rain screen systems in particular meeting a certain criteria for for fasteners that has thermal breaks embedded in it. So, any questions that we can answer on the envelope compliance. I think it's more confirmation. I think, Tim, when you went through what had gone up when we were talking about the cost, the most recent cost estimates. All of this is in the cost estimate the, the plus one inch the, the different pieces so that was one of where we had to offset some increases that were for the code. That is correct. These changes are reflected in the dd estimate. Thank you. I just wanted to confirm that and, and, you know, my, a general reaction and then I see Shelly's got her hand up is that I won't call the elementary school again a pig, but all the other schools. All the other schools are going to have to go through this I mean we have the net zero but this is, you know, we've got some other building projects public building projects. Is that correct. I mean this is just the basic code that the last couple of things have been on. Correct. Okay, that's it.  Yeah, just a question about looking at the commissioning report and and questioning using closed cell spray foam. And did you look at using something with less than body carbon is that a possibility not a possibility. Is it been thought about just just curious. I will answer in that we have looked at other installation that we could put in the space between the studs they do not perform as well as closed cell but fiberglass, any other things. Rockwell, they all have, maybe not as high but they all have a high embodied carbon. So the trade off would be minimal for lack of a better word. And the performance would not be there and spray foam insulation also helps a little bit with air infiltration which some of the other materials don't. So we feel it's a good material. The buildability is also an important thing with the bats forcing them behind things. It's a little more forgiving to achieve your required thicknesses in full coverage with the spray foam and trying to stuff a bat between studs up behind a beam. Thank you. Probably move on. Okay, so we just included this slide to kind of give you a sense of what the calculation is is taking into account. So every different opaque assembly, every different kind of glazing with a different unique you value is taken into account quantified every different kind of linear thermal bridge. And then that also then in turn is captured into NISCO's details. So, in summary, we feel as a team that we're on track for compliance and, you know, we're happy to have, you know, been getting through this hurdle of trying to align the modeling efforts and the envelope efforts with the constructability of the building in a way that I think as a team we feel is a good path forward. I guess, you know, that aside, we feel pretty optimistic so we can open it up to any any further questions where we can move on to the lead update. Shelly. Just a quick follow up that last graphic would be super helpful for us to, and any other graphics that you have so that we're seeing what you're looking at. Streamline our process a little bit better. So if you'd be willing to share the envelope image and any other sort of images that you have of zoning and the energy model, et cetera, would be super helpful. We will share all of the materials that is one page of many that both I'm steady and Dennis go up down to do these take off so we can put those in the Packets for the meeting. Great. I think Tim, you can move it to the lead. Great. Okay, great. So for lead, again, also feeling like we're very much on lead feel so easy now compared to all the other efforts but very much feeling like we're on track at 65 points that we're considering yes, you know, very certain that that we're on track to achieve those so solidly within gold, we always want to be five or six points over the threshold. So for gold threshold is 60. So we really have some good wiggle room here and are very confident going into CDs that, you know, achieving a lead gold certification will be well within reach. And we've we've shared this slide before but just a reminder of what some of the lead targets are and again well on track to anticipate achieving the 2% reimbursement for exceeding the energy code by 20%. And then also targeting a minimum of three points within the seven points available in in these three credits that are particularly focused on indoor air quality. And then in next next steps, it's really just, you know, moving ahead and making sure that all of our pieces are coordinated if there's any sort of minor tweaks that end up coming up in the final coordination between the envelope and the energy modeling, and then just continuing to document for lead but again feeling like we're well on our way to to making this happen. So this is all we have for slides and I'm happy to hand this back over to Tim or open it up to questions. If folks have any questions, let's be kind of sum up. I have one more slide that illustrates where the PV and geothermal are on site and maybe we can just wrap up this section with that to put it into context of the building. If you can see that. The site plan, as we have seen it this does not reflect yet the most recent tweaks in terms of the playground size reduction but other than that it is up to date and what this shows which has not been clearly illustrated before is one, the location of the geothermal well field, which will be south of the building and once the building is complete basically invisible to the user. But this is what allows a more efficient mechanical system and allows the energy consumption to go down. And then this dashed line over the southern end of the parking lot and the dashed line on the roof shows the extent of all of the PV on the roof it is broken up to move around mechanical largely in this area. Here we have a low roof that is shaded by the building to the south so we don't have PV there. Here we have some other equipment and the areas for the officer when we are here. We are also in the process of coordinating all this with access to roof drains and things like that which would be very upset if we didn't do that for him. And so that some of all of this enclosed area gives us that 810 megawatt hours per year plus buffer. The other line I want to illustrate and point out this red line is roughly the phasing line south of that line once the fence goes up for the early site package and construction of the school. The school will operate north of that line. So we purposely have all of the PV south of that line so they can be constructed in phase one. And so when the day the school opens, it will be net zero because the PV will be operational. And then once this fence comes down and the demolition of the existing school and the rest of the site is commencing in the fall of 26. All of the mechanical systems everything that is required to make the building that's here will already be online. And then I just wanted to show one example. We've shown multiple PV options before. This is essentially the density for that part of the parking lot. It's covers the dry vials and the parking spots. This is actually in East Hampton at the River Valley co-op is another project that our solar consultant has done. But I just wanted to, you know, make sure that everyone understands the density of the PV that is going to be in the parking lot. So that plus the roof will give you the energy that you need to reach net zero. Um, I have a future. The day I like to phrase the day the school opens it will be net zero because the PV will be operable. Do you, I know we're a ways from that, but the, the linking it up, make sure ever source is linking it into the grid so that we get full credit for what we're generating since we're not just doing it internally. And that happens during your, you're working on that with the town and with the energy consultants to have it be a go on day one. I'm trying to ask it as a question, because I know it's been an issue. It didn't for my house it didn't take very long to get it linked up, but we're one little house. The answer is yes we are working on the interconnection so that it is. In line with everything else active and operating as intended on day one. Kevin, I don't know if you want to add anything to that, but the short answer is yes. Yeah, just real quickly with what the goal would be is, you know, the service and the PV is up and running June one, June 15th. And it gives us a couple of months to go through the process that you described you go through in your house, which I did the same with my house to that. It does take like some time to lecture time and we're hoping that in the schedule that will be the summer to cover that. You know, if ever source needs a little extra time on, you know, getting that paperwork together. So we would use the goal of June one June 15 to have the PV and the building electric service, you know, fully functional. And you'll be using I mean we use we used a group. Again it's a few others on this line probably use the same group that had worked a lot on this but they ever source came out and said you've done everything right but you've got to do one more thing. On a meter on a meter. It was a pretty easy fix but they had to get their electrician back out to do whatever the one more thing was. So you'll be working with someone who is worked either locally or worked with these installations. Again, that's a question because I know you don't know who the contractor is yet on this. The contractor is but we do have solar design on board consultants who have done this before and the intent is to have all of that lined up before we're in the position of needing to do something. And the solar in this project will be bid with a general contract. Okay. And that contract will bind them to make sure that every last little thing is done. And it's tied to that construction schedule that'll be in the bidding documents. Okay. Thank you. That is that is that is the last slide I have for that section. So Margaret I think the next thing we're moving on to is the net zero checklist or. Yeah, and, you know, again, just to sort of per context. The, the town. Has a bylaw, which requires net zero peer review. And over the course of a couple of meetings on a lot of discussion. We ended up proposing that architect, which is Shelly's firm, provide the net zero peer review. And also create as part of this process a checklist so that the peer review is tied to a checklist. The checklist is not is, is I think a good strategy for this. The checklist is in the fold in the packet for this meeting. But I'm going to turn it over to Shelly first to walk through her development of the checklist and then she'll talk about the peer review of design development documents. Shelly, do you want me to open the checklist on the screen or are you able to do that? I should be able to do it. And before I do that, I'm just going to kind of give you logic behind how we've developed it and Jacob feel free to kind of jump in here as well. So the town's bylaw with the net zero peer review is basically saying that in our opinion, the contract documents are consistent with the building that is going to be net zero energy capable. And I just want to read to you what that means, how that's defined in the bylaw so everyone understands what we're aiming for here. Zero energy capable means a project designed based on the energy budget in compliance with the zero energy requirements, incorporating one high, highly efficient standards to minimize the project's need for energy. And then to incorporating renewable energy systems with enough capacity to supply the energy needed. So, Jacob and I, our first question was, all right, what, what is highly efficient standards is that how is that defined. And the conclusion we came to is the thing that's actionable is to use the Massachusetts stretch code, because that is what's in effect. So, basically, all of the efficiency standards that we've pulled into the checklist are Massachusetts stretch code standards. So that's the part one, and you'll see that in a minute. With the renewable energy standards, the stretch code does reference ASHRAE 90.1 appendix G for modeling and then also we pulled an ASHRAE 209 that also has some other modeling suggestions best practices as well into the modeling part of reviewing the model. Basically, when you talk about the energy budget from, you know, what we're trying to confirm is that yes, this project is is set up to achieve net zero energy now I can't guarantee that the design team can't guarantee that nobody can guarantee that we can only say that if the building is operated in conjunction with the inputs into the energy model, then it shouldn't it shouldn't affect meet meet that energy budget right. And so I think that's the piece that we want to keep coming back to in this next phase of what does that mean for the interaction between this energy model and the operation of the building and start thinking about that now, rather than later. So that'll be a recurring theme as I come through that. Okay, so that's Jacob did you have any other thing you wanted to say just about the checklist and the thinking behind it what went into it. Let's take that as a no. Okay. I just we're talking I just lost audio and video for like moment. My attention. Of course you did. I just asked if you had anything else to add to that breakdown of what very well it's been. Yeah, okay. Alright, I am going to share screen now. Okay. So, the first thing I want to say is that, because we're developing this checklist and again like, we're trying to make this actionable, make it in to be in compliance with both the net zero energy code and other things that are in the program. It is it has it has been interesting it's been it's been super fun in some ways to figure it out. But it also is a is the work in action. So we've got it to a certain point, and then we started the review and as we're reviewing, we are making updates to the actual checklist in real time, as we interact with the drawings with with the specifications and everything to make sure that it's making sense and that it'll also make sense for future projects. So on the front page it's pretty simple you know you just inputs for various project required project square footage etc. The performance compliance for energy, and then who are the players and you see there's things that we need to still fill in. And then for the phase that we're reviewing, what did we review. And that way we kind of are all on the same page moving forward. Sorry about that. Okay, let me actually go into full screen. So, one thing that I want to say is, we get into this this is actually a Google sheet so that everyone can act you know the design team members and well Jacob and I and reviewers can access this at the same time so the PDF is cut off in weird places. Again, like not indicative of where everyone will actually be interacting with this with this particular spreadsheet. Okay. So just overview of the way it works is we've got different sections and I'm noticing up here already that this should say in this column that this is the energy target section. This next phase this is what phase are we looking at it and we decided rather than having different checklist for different phases that it made most sense to have every phase in the same document so that it's easy to compare where where are we trying to get. Where is it now has there been a change. And that's just it's going to be a much easier way to track things as we go along. It's yes no this could be construed as maybe or missing information or not applicable in some cases that happens. snapshot is just giving us a it's a very quick like look at well where what is the target so you could see on et 1.4 this is asking for what is the target and 100% SD. It's EUI 25. When you come down to 3.2 where we're saying what's what target are you hitting. We see that it's a 24.9. So that's a quick way to see like where's the where things at. How is it progressing. This next is just what were we where did we find that information notes were basically what I'm using the section for is to put in what did I find in the drawings and very briefly. What is there what is going on so that it's easier to again reference it later as well as any concerns suggestions actions or questions back to the design team. The date that it was reviewed and then in this last column of space for a response back from the design team and if no response is needed, then we put in our we don't we don't need a response we're just noting things for ourselves. So that's the basic outline of what this looks like. And again so this first section is setting targets it's setting what is the compliance path for for energy what is the what modeling strategies are being used all those sorts of things that. And of course it's not letting me advance. I'm gonna have to stop sharing come back in sorry about that. As you advance I'll just say that I'm a big fan of Ashway 209 so I'm very excited to see that you picked up from there. Awesome. Thank you so much and actually you know I want to also say that it would be great to get the design teams feedback on this as well because it is again. It is a work in progress I don't know why this keeps coming up and not what I'm trying to get. Tell me I haven't opened to if you want me to share it and you can sort of tell me where to where to point to think we're going to be okay now yeah I'm just not going to go into full screen because it just gets glitchy when I. Yeah, obviously when I do that. Okay, so here we are. So basically this is setting again that the energy targets and whatnot, and then how the energy model is complying and again we're pulling things from from Ashway and and both sections that I mentioned earlier. Okay, so a lot of this is really checking the energy modeling then the siding or and you can see to that there's different phases that we're checking these things consistently and to make sure that there's there's been an update we we're tracking it. The next section siding orientation and massing. Let me also say that we did the SD and DD reviews at the same time. And the reason is because you know we were past the SD review date by the time everything got into place and where you had the checklist so just for the sake of going through the process at SD to see what would we have been looking at. And then did that very quickly and we didn't have the OPR so that you know we just use what we had just to get a sense for checking the checklist in essence and then making sure that we knew where the project was starting from. So the next section siding orientation and massing that's really something that occurs more in the SD phase. So you don't see a lot of inputs there for that particular reason a lot of this was done. There's some meetings and meetings where we talked about these things. So, you know, if there's some backup information that can be provided that that would be great. Building envelope you can see it's done sort of by sections the first section, we're looking at air tightness, and then we get into into thermal boundary so first moving through floor walls, roof, getting the glazing. The use of daylighting is well come up in that section, and then finally into doors and then finally into thermal bridging. Mechanical systems again kind of just by general issues in the first section and cooling, heating, and we're doing also conveyance system you know distribution systems are in here. And the ventilation system conveyance systems for ventilation controls. And I think I miss fans up above that and then diagnostics electrical setting like again setting that lighting power density so we have lighting, and then we get into equipment loads, plug loads, and then penetrations also through the building envelope we're looking at in this section as well. And then general transfer transformers motors, etc plumbing. Again, you're looking at the equipment you're looking at the distribution systems you're looking at all those sorts of efficiencies. And then I'm just quickly kind of going through this and then we can talk bigger picture about about what we think the key things are in the project right now. The renewable energy systems. This section I'll say is not what we drew from here was from the specialized code, even though it's not adopted in Amherst it's like alright the net zero code. And so we just pulled from that sense, you know, as a reference point to see our what is the specialized code say in regards to the requirements for for renewable energy systems and so we just pulled from that into this document but that's something that the town may want to consider later just going ahead and adopting of course that would apply not just to to government buildings but to all building types but that it's just a thought to think about. There was at the end of the day I know that Rudy's comments were like alright, where do you actually say this e to requirement that that it is going to meet. In our opinion it's going to meet this whole thing and so that actually is already 2.1 and I'll update this language into the language this is actually in the Amherst energy code rather than this language is basically pulled from the specialized code will pull it instead from the Amherst code there in essence saying similar things. So that will be the place at the end of the day, if this last box gets checked at 90% CD that is the check that yes in fact we are confirming that in our opinion, the contract documents are going to produce a net zero capable building. If this building is operated in conjunction with the way that the building budget has been set the inputs into the energy model. Kathy. No, Jonathan's first Jonathan. So, just to, as you're paging through there, you know, because this is the work in progress and the design in progress. There are some places where multiple boxes in the same category are kind of checked off. You know, if there's both the yes and no, I assume that means you've seen some things that look right to you and some things that you've got questions or you think the designing team needs to go back to or, you know, if it's a yes and an M it means yes we saw some stuff if it's a maybe or missing, just to kind of, to explain why in a process document you might, you might not have just single columns check yet. Yeah, and it's a big question and Rudy brought that up as well, and his comments and yeah we had the same discussion like, Oh, how do we deal with this because you don't want to yes some things are there and other things are maybe not there or we don't know if they're there. That is, that is something that will continue to look at to see if there's a clear way to convey what's happening. Yeah, you know, it's, I think to until you get to that 90% CD that's when the check really matters. It's really a guide post you know, leading up to that like, are we getting there like or what is quite there yet right. But it's a, you know, it is an interesting thing to continue to think about we will continue to think about it I think Rudy suggested well maybe if there's two different things you need to separate those out into different points. We'll look at that, and that may be the case. We're also trying to keep it general and not over complicate matters and some things may apply to one building type and not another. So all of these things are there super it's a super interesting challenge just to try and figure out what's going to be helpful. Right. And that's the whole point is how is this going to be helpful to the design team, and not just be another thing that isn't really helping at all. So, you know, we're really cognizant of that and trying to make sure that we're providing helpful feedback. And again, design team please feel free, please give us feedback on this and things that you could see would be improvements as well. We'll definitely send review this. As you know, we got this Friday. It's a very comprehensive document and having checklists are helpful, because when you have them, you can shape the information you provide to make sure that those checklist questions are answered at the phase that you're in. And, you know, you, you spend a lot of time having to plow through information that was provided for other reasons to try to hammer it into a checklist that you were developing. So I appreciate the back and forth that you went through between SDDD basis of design that were written for MSBA standards but not engineering standards. Right. Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. Kathy. My comment interacts with what Rick just said, because what I saw is that, and then your memo that we just put in, we just distributed this morning because Margaret, I didn't see it at first but Margaret said wait till that. Not everyone see it but flagging the things that potentially are going to change when you get to 60% and 90% that the comments may instead of blanks may be filled in but also it may interact with earlier comments that now they're in. You said the plug loads weren't indicated at one point. And then in your memo you talked about thermal bridges, you know, so there are some pieces that I, as you know I'm not a builder and I've never been on a project like this before. So I don't have a really good sense Rick and Tim and Donna that when you're at 100% CD or 90% how much detail do you have that lets a Shelley look at something or some of that. So I thought this was really useful in another way that to extent we have another building that comes that we're looking at it has a way of saying you can see certain things in an early phase and then go along. So, so my, my other comment is, we do have the specialized code and Amherst, and we, we had the stretch code and then we voted a couple weeks ago for what someone described as the stretchy stretch code. Okay, when does that come into force. I don't, I don't know the it was, it was voted with an approval so what I don't know is like, I forget the date, Jonathan, you know when when we would say the new construction because one of the concerns is we don't want to make Amherst non competitive with all the surrounding projects in terms of commercial I mean public buildings but Northampton adopted it and a few others so I can check that Jonathan on when it actually starts to take place but but I found this really helpful and I also found the the cover memo. It's really, really, so you may want to turn to that because it turned from a lot of information to there are a few areas and the, the one in particular that the way this building is used is going to matter. And that the, the recommendation that we think now about putting together a team. That would be on that team. So my question, both of you and of Dinesco is to be able to monitor, we'd need zones, we'd need some, you know, where, if we're hitting every target that'd be great but if we want to know what's being used more than we thought it was going to be used, you know, where are those zones is a question and then the second is to what extent the kids and the teachers who won't be part of the monitoring system, but that if we early on talked about some kind of visual somewhere in the building, the kids could say, Oh, and I, it could be as simple as how much energy did our solar panels generate today, you know, something that would allow them to feel like they're in a special building. So it is the zones that the Rupert and others might, might do. So those, those two pieces on the actual once the building is up and running. The users of the building have some sense of what they should be looking for in terms of monitoring and I'll, I'll stop. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to kind of address everything that you talked about going on the back to the game and then getting to what you're just talking about. With the checklist, if, you know, in terms of phases, I want to say that, you know, the drawings are in a, are in my opinion in great shape for design development, right. So it would be like, the details are there, right. And what that means is that we're then able to see the commission agent is able to see, all right, where are the, where are the places that still need to be addressed. And there, you would expect at this point that of course there's still going to be things that need to be addressed. And you would expect that not everything is completely coordinated, and that there are differences between what's going on in the energy model and in the drawings. And that's part of this whole design process because you're trying different things in the energy model and you're trying to get the details to work, right. And those two things are talking to one another. But that is all to say that you're not going to have a situation where you have a yes checkbox at any phase until 90% CDs. So I want to make it clear that I think that things are progressing really well. So building envelope. There's really like there's a few issues and they've already kind of already been addressed today in terms of like spandrel glazing what's the thermal value going on there the perimeter insulation we're definitely seeing that one as well, and then dealing with some thermal bridges and it's good to see that you know there's a lot of work going on in that in that area. And mechanical systems similar I mean you guys there's a lot of great decisions have been made on this project thus far. So it's really set up well the nutshell here is that I think the building envelope and the mechanical systems are progressing nicely. And so there are coordination issues and things to continue to dial in as in terms of both the design and the energy modeling, but that's not where I think the most important things are going to be happening from well I mean they're important but I think the key things that we want to focus on are leading to the kind of things you're talking about now Kathy which is getting into the lighting power densities I know I saw Thornton a study that made a comment about these things need to be dialed and more still the plug loads the equipment loads those sorts of things and starting to think about the operation of the building, even in terms of metering and monitoring and those sorts of things, and starting to dial those in. So what I'm going to jump down to an electrical systems where we have the most comments. And let me see if I can this comment right here. What we're suggesting is that in that zero energy management policy will want to get developed by the school by them by the committee, or whoever gets put in charge of that along with a management team. And this ties into the am into the Amherst code F2, which says that users to operate the project in cordon in accordance with the final energy budget. So the final energy budget is going to be what comes out of the energy model. And so the management policy needs to understand what the inputs were into that model and the team needs to understand what were the inputs, and then therefore we need to behave in that way in order and operate the building in that way in order to meet this budget, just to make it concrete. Let's say, you know, there's not, there shouldn't be a space heater under someone's desk. And the policy needs to say, there's no space heaters under the desk and we have a team that's going to be monitoring that and we find it we will confiscate it right that you're going to need some policies like that, to make that clear. I'll pause right there, Ali. This is great. I love it playing devil's advocate a little bit. Let's say that the school is. It will be such a fabulous place that everyone wants to use it right and so the community wants to use it on weekends, like every single classroom every single weekend and every single which I think we would all consider is a good thing. You know how the model is done, and the school might not meet net zero now I know your focus is saying what will meeting net zero well be right but I think it would be interesting to as you're developing this is just a raw thought right but just to maybe. I don't know if it's phrase it or just like account for a certain level of you said something this is what trigger you said something is like we need to look at the inputs in the model and make sure that that's how the building's operated. Well, maybe, maybe there's things that are more efficient than what it wasn't you know the model is is is a wild guess regardless of how good we are at trying to predict what we're going to do. And so, I think it would be, it would be good to incorporate in a certain way the fact that if the school ends up being so successful that it's being that it's being used that we find that it's eu is higher because it's being used more than that that's a good thing. Right, that, you know, I don't know how to put it, but I didn't want anyone to think that oh no no this document says we shouldn't be using it beyond the schedule so therefore let's use an older facility. Yeah, that's a great point but I think that's that's something you write in the document right and so the document says alright here was the schedule that was put into the energy model. And we just need to be aware when we're deviating from that schedule and why and we need to know that when we do it, it is going to probably blow our energy budget. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It just means you're aware that when you do it that you are actually going ahead you are you're going beyond the energy budget, and you may save money later in some other way, possibly to account for that, but you're aware of it. You know you're making a decision that is affecting the energy budget and then you're making those decisions consciously and there's other things beyond that zero energy that will play into that and I agree with you entirely. I'm going to guess that this building is going to get used way more than what has been scheduled right now. Right. And so, pre thinking that rather than getting disappointed or blindsided by it is a better option than just not being aware of it. But yeah, I think those are all great points. Jonathan. I have a kind of similar but different kind of perspective to that that we want to make sure we're building in enough flexibility that yes, absolutely we do not want any heaters under someone's desk. This is brand new building, but we also want to make sure that we're giving enough flexibility to the users. And the thing that pops in my mind that's a little bit like a heater but not that hot is, at least until the pandemic a common second and third grade activity for the kids in the in the late winter was to hatch eggs. And, you know, we don't we don't want to say no, you can't do that because we didn't have that plug load established, you know, so there is there's kind of a balance between the kind of the science that says this is what we put into the model and and and a certain level of flexibility for the users to make sure that both they can work with the the building and and and ultimately teach in the building. Yeah, and so Jonathan, that's why we're bringing this up now because I think those sort of considerations should come up now, and to the degree that they can be be incorporated into the model. So rather than saying we're going to underestimate plug loads, we're going to give a certain amount of space on plug loads to make sure that here are all the things I can think about that might happen in a classroom and we want those things to happen. So, you know, I think, you know, really thinking through that now and getting on our input on what those things might be. Again, like it's better to know it now than to be blindsided later that oh we can't hatch eggs because then we don't get to be net zero energy right and so I, that's where the design team needs you guys just to make those things clear and and that's why I think we need to have these plug load discussions in more depth right now and equipment and all those sorts of things. Jacob. Yeah, this is great. I'm so glad we're getting to this conversations exactly so what Shelley and I were thinking of really being important rubber meets the road because the rest of the basis of design is so strong towards a zero, you know, capable building. So, I think we're going to put in like three major categories of when we get, you know, a year, let's say, into operation we find not meeting that zero, and there's a panic and oh God, what do we do, what's the problem there's like a series of different reasons why that might be the case. One of them is that there was a mechanical issue, or there's an electrical issues a pump that's running continuously there's a sensor that is triggering and sending something off kind of haywire operating out of specification. There's a commissioning component to that but there's also a building monitoring component to that and one of the things we really want to. It's, I don't know how like, formally explicit it's been sort of names in the narrative definitely be coming up and it certainly is a checklist item is the, the building automation system or the dds system. It needs to not only have the capacity to do some logging and monitoring but it needs to be possible that facilities folks are going to be able to access that information review it. The problem is and solve it and that part's a lot trickier and some of the systems make it are like almost impossible to actually get useful information out of and some of the systems are actually really designed to be useful and so there was like a version of detail there that's going to go directly into facilities management to make sure it's not just the fact that like a pump is running indefinitely that could have been caught, you know, nine months prior. There's another category that still loads and it's yeah is there a space heater plugged in a re incubating chicks is the kitchen that they change their menu and are end up using certain equipment more intensively than was initially predicted. There's all those use category things that is I think speaks very much to the point of wanting sort of a policy and a team that I think the worst version of that is it's authoritarian and people are running around and unplugging things I think the best version of that is very education that's collaborative community developing around energy management and literacy amongst everyone all the users at the school and I think there's a really great opportunity around developing a culture and energy management that's like that's the the optimum version. And I think a third I'm sure there's probably four other categories here but the third that jumps to mind is the accuracy of the schedule and like is this building going to be used as a resilience shelter for warming and cooling is it. Yeah, it's never going to be so thrilled that they pack into it in all the weekends and, you know, to the degree that there's accountability, you know, financially to incentives of hitting net zero regardless of that that I think it's incumbent upon the owner and design team to make sure those schedules are realistic and anticipating those those time uses and I think a lot of this company there's a portion of this is accountability around. Are we going to get the incentive money if we hit those numbers and there's a fortune this is expectation management and if we do go over can we identify why and I think there's a really big difference if we have an energy budget is blown as big as a pump was running. And we didn't have a good commissioning process and ongoing energy kind of review process is it because, you know, someone plugged something in and we didn't kind of manage how it's being used or as big as the building's being used, you know, more and those are three really different categories with really different pathways for addressing those issues and three really different management strategies around how we would address that, ideally, in advance and to Shelley's point like we're really harping on this now because you have an opportunity right now to adjust schedules to set expectations to get a dds system that's actually going to be useful all of those things we can still you can still do that now but boys it can be awkward if we don't have those tools available in the systems aren't in place. So when we realize we've blown a budget and no one can figure out how and it becomes a really awkward, you know, circumstance, and I'm offering that from being involved in a number of other projects for you've been in that position. And boy we love to avoid that at this point because we don't have to we can we can kind of climb the learning curve a little bit faster, having had some of this prior experiences. Yeah, so I'm curious because to me you set those categories and I was expecting the first one to be the climate wasn't what we use in the file right. I think I think it's. I would be. How do I say this like I 100% agree with you, and then I disagree with you so much at the same time in that I fear that anything that gives the sense that 25 is what you should be hitting on year one is very misleading and I know we are all here to quantify that and to size the PV so that that is met. Right, but there is a couple of things that that come to mind where you're saying well maybe the kitchen you know maybe the menu change right. How will you know it's hard enough certain obvious ones right and there's certain not so obvious ones and you could just say well let's change the menu again just as an exercise right and so then the next year you're hitting it. Turns out that the next year the climate was totally different to right and so how to prevent people from going down those rabbit holes of thinking they understand or they can actually pinpoint what there's certain things that you just simply cannot. Unless the model will be there but calibration is really hard it's expensive. It's time intensive right and so we unless we are calibrating to last year's weather data every year right. We can't really take climate out of the equation and so I think it would be, you know, super useful to just clarify that I'm afraid that someone might just go on for like five years thing, you know, and if it's consistent right so if over five years you're at 30 then clearly, you know, clearly there's something wrong right, but if in 30 already is so much right but if you're 20 the first year. It could have been just a really cold year or a really hot, you know, there's so many things that go and so I think it would be useful to just what's in your control and. Can you know, like what's in your control like you can go you can call a commissioning agent and they'll come in and look at things and say okay so I did find this one little wire that wasn't or the duct wasn't really doing the right thing right. So that's great already calling commissioning agent was the right action right will that bring you back. Well, there's so many things that come into play that you will never know and so what I'm trying to get to is it would be very useful to just communicate that so that whoever's getting it doesn't think that 25 is what they need to aim for always and that it is from what their fault or something they must figure out and they can figure out right we are not going to be submitting every classroom. So, you can't quite tell if how we model the classrooms is exactly how the classrooms are operating that's a little bit of a wild guess we know the schedules and we can kind of just guess the plug loads but we won't be able to guess them as much right and so. However, it can be done if we could just be made clear that that the that it's really just not that easy to figure it out but here are some really good first steps to do things, I think would be very useful I'd be very worried that they just spent years and years and years just trying to pinpoint this one thing that you just can't pinpoint. I think this is the exact conversation that we need to be having right now and and so I appreciate that. And what I would say is like I think for everyone like at a certain point, you're comparing one year to the next you're not necessarily comparing to the energy you're looking at oh and year one, the heating system was this and a year to it was that. Hmm. Why was that is it because there was a different it was a different climate year, or do we need to call a commissioning agent, because we think something's going wrong, right and so it's just knowing like what to your point to what degree can we make those levers. It's really useful and obvious and have the management team that knows what to look for and what not to bother with right on the kitchen one like if, if we could submit or the kitchen. Then you could tell like, oh this month it was, you know, this amount of energy in the next month it was something more and it's like well, you know, then you can ask the kitchen staff to do something different. There's something more than another just to try and figure it out but that's where I think this sort of management policy if we can help inform, you know, just a strategy for how to deal with these things and I do think that having that conversation now will help make decisions about the management system, you know, the operating system and all those sorts of things and also dial in the energy model to be as realistic as possible so again I think this is a big discussion and we need it's just one that we need to have that that's our main point. Rupert. I want to thank you Ali and Jacob and Shelley of this. This, this is really like where, where I get anxious is, it's like, you've got a budget, you didn't meet your budget, you have to fix it, what are you doing wrong. And there are so many moving parts, I mean, even, even if we identify. Well, your HVAC system is not meeting its budget in the shoulder months. So it's a pretty well defined problem, but there could be 30 different reasons, some of which are happening once a week or only when the wind is from the east I mean who knows, right. So how do you fix that, I mean you just, you can't. The whole thing seems like a huge, I don't know. Like my cat got ahold of all of the dental floss in the house and made a big ball of yarn out of it I'm supposed to straighten it out. I just don't know how to do it. Thank you. Jacob. Yeah, thanks for that feedback and I think we're, we're way more aligned than it may have come off in my presentation I definitely not advocating for plug level monitoring and chasing every last one unless that is the interest in need of the town I mean ultimately I think accountability is back to the time to make sure that it's operating the way that their statute says and are holding there's a version of like, in terms of what problems need to get solved I mean that's definitely not our review. I would be, I would like to invite into the conversation if something goes wrong, like, what's at stake and how important is it to solve what level of problems and so certainly my intention and kind of breaking out those buckets was not to do it and every last one has to be counted for and someone is bad if they haven't. It's really to answer the ball of floss issue like, if we again like break apart these larger categories that's going to make it way easier to understand where we need to drill into if drilling in is even necessary it may be at least have like just enough big picture information to say to your, you know, Rupert to your example of yep there's an HVAC issue here and then let's write it out for a year or two because the basic thing is to do it and if it's like self results because of whether great or if it's actually not that big of a deal great or if we need to drill in then we kind of go from there and at least have the capacity built into a monitoring system to understand is it a geothermal pump that's haywiring or is it a circulator pump inside the plumbing system or, you know, I don't want to, you know, project on to from my mechanical like lens on this project on to what degree of granularity is going to ultimately be useful I mean ultimately getting down to individual processes will give us that amount of power but that doesn't necessarily make our job any easier to get to a solution any faster. So I think that really my intention of breaking those apart is not to like expose all the granularity that is required but mostly to like organize how you would go about doing global shooting this and Rupert make make your management job easier so it's not just a big ball of twine and get have some choice and agency deciding how far down the rabbit hole to go and how far down the rabbit hole to go is an accountability question that things ultimately needs to be answered by the time in terms of where the requirements if there is a financial incentive requirement around this then that's a different level of risk than just expectation management and I couldn't agree more that yeah this is all based on averages of weather. There's all is a very slim chance that any given year is going to map up to the climate predictions in a model that's like that would be rare that it would actually be bang on there and so I just want to name that part of it to like is it actually a problem if we end up at 25.5 or 25.8 and is that going to be an issue is there something else needs to be compensated on the potential to expand. The renewable generation if that's going to be what satisfies the town's needs if it turns out to be using the building more it's really more of a of a strategy and a response structure more than a need to get to every single last little bit of information I think if the strategy has been developed well there will not be a need to have to drill into every single plug and make sure that you know every day's worth of energy is being reviewed because we'll set ourselves up better to understand what the problem is and whether it's actually a problem or not I think that's the that's the bigger thrust of what I was hoping to convey there. So maybe, maybe I know mass save offers plug load analysis as as part of the design process. I think that might be something we should think about and use just like an energy model right you know it's not going to be exact but it will at least allow us to have something to measure against once we're once once we open right and then the other component is the sub metering and where are we putting those meters and what's tied to those sub meters so that we can track it and you know just like mass save and and everyone else will say we're not building a school so no one can use it right the school is that is that we we embrace the school so all of this is great but if we can maybe do a plug load analysis understand what the intent is based on the information we know today who knows what technology is going to look like in five years right it could use more it could use less but but at least and I you know I respect and just really commend the community really wanting this energy energy management plan. But with that said, you know, understanding that education shifts that that technology shifts that all of these need shift, but as long as we understand what the parameters were starting with and as things change and if if energy goes up or down, we can say aha, it's because the school day is now an hour longer, or gee, who had any idea that charging 25 crumbs every night is is going to take acts right at least we're not going to do nothing it's not me it's a community but I can't imagine I was going to say you can't do these things that that are supporting the educational program. We can know with the plug loads and the sub metering say what's going on in that kitchen right is the ventilation going wacky or whatever so I, I just strongly urge that we consider the plug load analysis and then let's let's be thoughtful about the sub metering and what makes sense there and that might give us a good sense of how we can analyze the usage of the building. That sounds great Donna Rupert. Lower hand speak. Yeah, I think some of the things that might be useful in terms of trying to tease out responses to the reality that we experience over time is to try to differentiate between how much an energy resources being used versus how an energy resources being used to sort of contrast between well we've got, you know, 500 more people, 500 more person hours in the building every week versus. Oh, we are bringing fresh air into the building. When it's not appropriate for energy want purposes but maybe for comfort. And to find ways to distinguish between those and to tease out a path between them I think would be useful for us, especially, I think, because folks have the tendency to look for engineering solutions for human behavior problems. And so we need to be able to sort of distinguish this is this is a mechanical issue this is an engineering problem versus this is a human issue this is can be addressed by changing human behavior, and not always look for the expensive engineering solution. And it would be great to somehow incorporate that into into our thinking. Thank you. With that Margaret I think we've gotten through the last thing I'll say like in this section we're talking plug loads and in the management part of it and then just equipment you know just getting equipment efficiencies selected or kitchen and whatnot and getting those dialed in was the other thing that we're just pointing out and moving forward with without at this point in this next phase was something that we're just flagging as important Jacob. And to the end it's what I think we're all in the same page on this but just for the formality of it I saw there was a handful of questions from Rudy about, shouldn't some of these mid CD level things be DD level review things. Shelley and I did not miss attempt based on our knowledge of how details develop as to where we would expect to see like an error barrier enclosure penetration detail like yeah we're not expecting 100% those are going to be done at DD so it didn't seem appropriate to put all those into DD similar some of those mechanical pieces it just was unrealistic to expect that all those be worked out by DD. So it's want to respond to that formally and you know I get part of getting the feedback from the design team we love it if it seems like there are some recommendations or where the things are phased and also a heads up, you know, looking ahead to see that those are the specific items that will ultimately be looking for and it just kind of gives an opportunity as we're heading into that phase to get a sense of penetration details and some of the mechanical specifications and things so we're curious to design team to look at for both sides gives the feedback and also just give you heads up of what's coming but I want to answer some of those questions around the what was it yet filled out and why. And just to follow up on that we actually ended up moving stuff that we weren't going to look at until 60% CDs into 100% DD because it is already there. And I'm like, well, should we be doing this because I don't know on a future project if that's going to be the case. This is an ideal scenario of a lot of it really is already there. You know, because it was there we did we did move it into 100% DD. But yeah, like to Jacob's point at the design team can check those phases of when we're looking for what to see in your opinion on a typical project, you know, if what would be there when just because this is going to be the checklist that the town uses going forward so we do want it to relate to a typical project. Kathy. I just have a question. I think this is great. And, you know, we are going to open up to the public but in terms of this 60% and the 90%. I think we're about to be at 60%. And then what I don't remember Margaret on the schedule is when or Donna and Tim, when 90%. So, you would be your team, the Jacob Shelley team is, you're done for right now. And then there's feedback and discussion, and then you look again at 60 and a look again at 90 so you're doing both, because I think that was one of the advantages of bringing you on now you don't want to fix it. At the point we're contracting to build it. So just on when is that and so I'm just looking for dates, you know, in terms of where we're this week of November now. I know we're talking about going out with the first phase in March with the, with some of the surface preparation. So, so there's a second or second and a half look. And it's a question of timing. So, yeah, Tim, you I think you might have the dates, the 60% is coming out as fast 60% is going to be estimators in mid December submitted to the MSBA in early January, and then for 90% I don't have that I think it might tell but I believe we're in April. So Kathy, it might make sense, you know, we issue at the 60% when we issue that to the cost estimators we typically that's when the commissioning agents take a look at it as well. So that would obviously it's totally available which makes sense that Shelley and Jacob take a look at that as well. At that point in time and then we try. I think it's about two and a half three weeks the commissioning agents to have their comments back would be great to get their comments back so we can incorporate them, especially if there's any financial implications to any of the recommendations. Okay, that that was my answer my question so they, there's another, there's a mid December and then there's an April. And then, and then we're watching something happen over at the site. I just want to add it's. So, I think of these moments I think there was a time when you sort of maybe 20 years ago, you submitted a set and like people like took a rest I mean, the team and it's printing a set of drawings. And then you're going right back to what you were doing so the process is moving really really fast at this point, in terms of the construction document content so to me, the 60% is incredibly important, because by the time you got to the 90%, they're doing coordination on stuff, just making sure that all the pieces are knit together. They're not looking for more content commentary so hopefully not. We know that we know that. So, I think Kathy just real quick the site, the site prep package that's going out really doesn't impact this work. Yeah, no, no, I didn't understand that. That's, you know, other. Okay, that that was just my comment it was useful. 60% is an important and it's around the corner. So, in January, we as a committee or a subcommittee might have another discussion. Yeah. If I could add with this checklist now at 60% with feedback back and forth. You know, we can shape what's going to the cost estimator so this information can be found by Shelly and she can hopefully check off more boxes commissioning agents that MSBA hired. They're reacting to what they see. Period. They, they don't have a checklist. They have some preconceived notions and that's what they measure what they see against. So it's a little different rubric and dealing with that. Well, one of the things, aside from the purpose of this exercise of checklist and getting a peer review. I love the idea that we need to start thinking now about a team in town, because it's also a way of Rupert and others in the schools. Before the school is built, starting to get excited about the school, you know, when we, when we start to, you know, even if it's just conceptually, you know that there would, you know, who might want to be on it. Rupert, you know, is there a science teacher, you know, does our, we has a sustainability coordinator in town, but it makes the project real before it's started to become real. And so I really thank you very much for, for putting, for writing that into this easy to read two page. Yeah, you're welcome.  So I think yeah, if we could, if you could get to that sooner rather than later, it would be super helpful. Yeah, I've said to Kathy I think identifying a couple of members of the staff at the school who will be enthusiastic leaders within the school will be really important to that process as well. So that's not a problem for this group but I think it's, it could, it would make a big difference. And it just makes it feel more real to, you know, we're no longer asking people about where the room will be, you know, but it's, there's this larger piece so, so thank you. That's it Jonathan that I don't have any other comments. And our only other thought and we can maybe this this is to the building committee more than the subcommittee is, I think it's an additive like $5,000 for that plug load analysis and we would need I think, I think Thornton Tomasetti would be doing it and support with Massave. If we want to do it, you know, if we do it much later than now, you know, kind of like it has diminishing returns. Yeah. Well, I think that that sounds like a valuable thing to put to the larger committee Kathy. Yeah, I think so too. And then my, my question will be those and I can ask this later. To what extent is there wiggle room already in the budget or do we need to write it specifically in and it as a sub another subcontract, Donna to you know whatever we would need to take a look at it and know whether where it's where it's going. So we will need some kind of proposal to then take a look at it. Yes. Yes. Yes. But there there is wiggle room in the budget for exactly this kind of use and I would certainly strongly support this to the commit with the committee so. Yeah. Kevin, do you have anything, anything to add to any of this Kevin Murphy has been joined joined us all day and he's been so quiet, but so like him. Do you have anything to add Kevin or talk about some metering or do we want to have that conversation in light of, you know, wanting to be able to do checks and balances and troubleshoot if needed, if energy starts creeping. Yeah, sure. Just to, just to quickly say how many meters we have right now we've got 18 sub meters between measuring the pole building and measuring different different loads. And we're doing a base for two things. First of all the requirements are for the lead for measurement and value lead requirements for measurement of a load over 10% and the new energy code kind of matches up to the same thing, except that it adds, you know, having to meter outside lighting and meter. The elevator, the elevators are very, very small load but it's listed as one of those miscellaneous extra things that we have to to meter. So what we've got it broken down to right now is the lighting in the building. We have the elevator, the geothermal heat pump system. Right now we've got four meters for HVAC and that'll be broken up between ventilation and in pumps and in small miscellaneous loads. We have three meters for the kitchen to have three different panels being an all electric kitchen we have an emergency panel for for refrigeration and other loads that nature. And then we have a 40 volt panel or two way panel for the different kitchen equipment inside the in there. We have a we have a meter for technology, all of the MDF and all the IDF rooms for the servers and the technology equipment. We wire all of those circuits back to one panel, and we meter that panel for technology. We have one meter for all the receptacles. We do that at the distribution panel that feeds all the receptacle panels outside lighting emergency lighting. And then right now we have metering for the receptacle loads for each of the floors. And that's our starting point.  And as it was discussed, really what this this data provides you, it's not so much to find out what's going on in an individual room. It's looking for trends. You know, there should be very, very little receptacle loads, preferably zero at night.  It's the same with mechanical systems.  You know, then you then that gives you the meeting really just gives you the idea of seeing large trend issues, and then being able to go and use it as a means to find the issue and then help and to fix it. Robert. Then lower hand. Okay. In light of the discussion we had earlier this afternoon, Kevin, you have an idea of how, how would work in terms of getting a handle on community use presumably that would mostly be in the, in the ground floor spaces that are the larger areas to sort of tease out. If the community is using the building an extra 20 hours, can we measure that? You know what I mean? You know, we just, we've had other clients ask us about putting small meters on like the gymnasium lighting the gymnasium hv system, and they and that was more toward them to be able to charge back to the use groups who are using the space. I think what it really comes down to is again. You know, we've, we, we see that the building as was discussed, it's going to get used much more than anticipated just, it's just what it is everybody wants to use to bring your building because it has, you know, it's fantastic dynamic and has all the spaces that people want to use. I really just comes down to, you know, I think the first level of his and Donna can jump in is just that when it comes down, putting down the hour of usage for the building is being honest that, you know, it's Friday night Thursday night is going to be youth basketball is going to be on the weekends, and other groups are going to want to use it for whatever nature much more than typical than just, you know, being a little bit more honest with the process up front that you're going to have that. And then again, the metering, you know, will help you that, you know, is to look at your meeting trends on Saturdays and Sundays. And you know, you know, you start seeing it, you know, over time and you probably will see it grow as more and more groups want to try to use it. So Kevin, is it is it cost prohibitive. So the cafeteria and the gymnasium are the two and they're directly across the hall from each other so it's almost like the community use when on the first floor. Is there a way to put a sub meter for for that whole front portion of the building I think that might be what Rupert was saying like is there a way to can to measure that use. And it's okay if it's more but at least it's an explanation as to why. It would be difficult to put just one meter in to do that because obviously HVAC units get fed from a different panel than receptacles and lighting do we have to break up the loads in that nature. So it might only be lighting, right. Lighting or like I said we have you have a separate HVAC unit for the gymnasium. You could put a meter on that and that would just you know you're not going to get all the loads being used in the space because you're not picking up the lighting and you're not picking up the receptacle use in there. But you do get some trending of when the when the space is being used. But again also, as you know Rupert the BMS would do that for you also on the HVAC units and would tell you what I was going to say. The units can be tracked. Yeah, the mass on their usage how long they were on, and if they were running at 25% or 100% and then obviously on a Saturday if they're running at 100% you have in one hell of a good party there, you know, in the space, you know much more than you were expecting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think we could tease runtime data and percentage data out of that without having to directly meter the electricity. Yeah, but between the two, but between the two the metering and then what what tweaks we put into what we're going to meter that information and the BMS system, you really will have a wealth of information to understand, you know what the data trends are when when the building is being being used, and also, you know, when it's not being used but the systems, you know are not running, you know, at a perfect, you know, ultimate use, you know, because, you know, sometimes you have to change the program, and someone, you know, inadvertently forgets to put the program back after that usage was was done. And unfortunately, it's, you know, again, that human nature part of it that as we're talking about it's hard to track. Thank you. Yeah, I love this conversation. This is so great. I just I have a quick question which actually doesn't need to be answered now and then I comment and actually we'll sort of the comments are just talking about the BMS system. I would strongly encourage you and anyone else on the owner side of things to be really explicit kind of now as to what you expect to get out of the BMS system and make sure that that is like put into the specs and programs explicitly for that. It's a lot harder and a lot more expensive to try to get that information out after the fact I'm probably saying things you already know I just want to like say it out loud really quickly it's just so much easier if you know what you want to get out of that system to have that in the spec and programmed in in the front end. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. And that may be like worthy of a quick survey of, you know, any other stakeholders in the school that may want some information around that energy manager either educationally or, or functionally. And I guess the question, Kevin, which you don't need to answer now but will be I think a question heading into CD for some of the checklist items. I love hearing the sub metering plans that totally makes sense in terms of like getting some big areas to look for big patterns like that's that's great. You've gotten so far will be going so far to identify the like data logging capacity like can you stop to turn to a year like how long will be able to log the data for and if you're going to have a protocol around reporting. Is that something that, you know, Roberto will be able to pull up himself automatically is that can involve a specialist just like the really literal specific parts of what data in what format can be accessed by whom and when and just having that part specified I know that can have a direct implication on hardware and costs and all that stuff and I just love to see that part mapped out early so that it's budgeted for and implemented for well. Jacob, what we've got right now is that is what we've got to call the minimum the lead requirement of maintaining having the capacity to store three years worth of KWH which is to your kilowatt hours and your KW man numbers on a 15 minute intervals for three years. That is the requirement for lead and that's what our, you know, our specification between us and and VAV for mechanical event on what how long we've been documenting.  You know, you can do a lot more but obviously, that capability is there and, you know, was discussed earlier, you know, we do specify. We use with a system called the even demon meters and it has a software package that comes with it. The software package is a is an app based web based type thing. You know, it's got some decent charts and it does have a couple of. If you program it correctly, you can get a couple of charts out of it, and certainly something that could be put on to the, the TV monitor out front, but if we were talking about what the building usage is at different times.  And that, you know, they have it as one stop shopping of all of their data trends and data information. So, you know, it's certainly what Rupert would like to do and then again, you know, when we're looking at the, you know, the building as an educational tool, I mean that software package it's a little expensive. I think it's like $10,000 for that software package. But again, it's a, you know, can be very helpful tool between educational use and also for how to manage the building. Thanks, that's great. So it is now 423. We're scheduled to go till five and I just want to maybe go back to Margaret's agenda and make sure we have a mistake thing critical because we do want to save some time for public comment. Not to intentionally cut off anything that but No, I So I think we really We touched on a lot of it. Yeah, very, we went very deeply into the issue, the big issue, the plug load management issue in a very useful way. We haven't touched specifically on the kitchen equipment and the lighting density, although I think we've discussed the approach to managing those items. So I don't know whether whether Dennis anyone on the Dennis go team wants to say anything more about the kitchen equipment or the lighting density as it relates to energy performance. Just to close the loop on that but we don't think it's necessary either. We don't have anything additional to add to this. Okay. I just have one another question for Kevin if I may go ahead. I like I like in terms of the big HVAC stuff the 15 minute interval sounds great to me. I wonder if you know what the current time span is that the utility company uses for demand fees and what kind of how that would interface with with trying to navigate unexpected high demand. I don't know what it is out ever sourced out in Western Mass but it's typically it's the 15 minute intervals. Okay, I've heard some of the small municipals be having five or 10 minute but I believe 15 minute is pretty much the standard. Cool. I 20 years ago I think it was six minutes but I don't know. Yeah, it's been out of the field for a while. We can certainly ask the question for. Unfortunately, ever source Western Mass is the old Western Mass Electric so they're not ever sources a conglomerate of four different companies they bought over time and unfortunately, they all don't seem to use the same same design. Yeah, exactly. So, I can certainly send an email out there to ask the question what their interval is for that. But just real quick, if I could say on lighting controls, you know, we're specifying a system that we do a lot of things with it and certainly, you know, that takes, you know, sit down with Rupert and principles and whatever to talk about how they want to program the system and for us to, you know, get that into the design a little bit under the drawings and obviously there will be a huge meeting before they program it that we call for to get that other information in there. One thing that we are planning on doing that hasn't really been talked about is the lighting control system has something called a high trim setting. And we're proposing to even though our goal is, you know, we're looking at our past projects our lighting has been between 0.45 and 0.52 Watts a square foot. The high level trim is you set the lighting to not go above 85% of its of its total usage so there's a way to even save another 15% on your lighting. If they've one room complains Rupert that it's a little dark in there, you can raise that individuals lights up a little bit, and then keep the others at the lower number. There's a lot of things that you can do with these systems that you can save energy along the way in the programming that, you know, obviously is very, you know, at this point, obviously be very hard to to put into the model but the programs do allow a lot of flexibility to do things like that. Jonathan, do you want to say anything about our earlier exchange about the constraints of chapter 149 bidding on, you know, some of the issues that we've got to deal with. You're muted. Well, you're never going to hear me if I keep it that way. So I have no comments would I. I was going to try and interpret that. So, you know, one of the one of the items in Rudy's wonderfully in depth comments were, you know, can we can we get to some of the makes and models, essentially, of some of this equipment I think particularly was thinking around the kitchen equipment. Yeah, where we have, you know, they use a lot of energy and they run for a while. And I think he also asked a question about, you know, trying to tease apart what's in the FF and E budget what's in the construction budget I would let I would defer to Tim on that piece of it but either way, whether it's procured through the construction budget or through the FF and E budget. We will have to go through the states public bidding process for both of those things where, unless something is really unique and really important. We have to list, or, you know, that could be a basis of design but you're effectively opening it up to three or more different competitors for each piece of equipment which makes it very hard to say with any definitiveness.  You won't know the answers to some of those sorts of questions until those bids come in. And so that, you know, from from a kind of design perspective I'm expecting the group writ large or having to use a certain level of approximation when they're determining equipment loads and, and, you know, basic and untypicals. That was kind of my, my thought reading that piece of it. Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. But I think with that point, we could certainly open up to public comment Jonathan whenever you're ready covered everything on the agenda. Great. Kathy, I'm going to rely on you to see because I don't think. Yeah, so I am I. So I see one hand on I it's Rudy, and I'm going to allow Rudy to talk and I'm going to bring Bruce also has his hand up so I'm going to bring Rudy and Bruce in your both. You should both be in. We start with Rudy since I think he was first. Yeah, he was sorry. My turn. Can you hear me? All right, it looks like. On that last point, Jonathan, I hear you reminder on chapter 149 you may not be able that you may not be able to specify exactly what model or something can be bought, but you can use the specifications for for what I think for what the performance standard is in terms of energy efficiency and so on. And I think those discussions, probably from having looked at models of different equipment and what's out there that could perform better than and and give us the same results and, you know, from laptops to projectors or whatever would be useful to be doing now to be doing now so we get ready for that. And one of I, I gave you guys a lot of thoughts and writing so I'm not going to go down a long list but one of the things coming out of this conversation listening to all of you today. The one thing I feel like I'm definitely hearing is that our projections of use hours of use are probably too low. You know, I think the townspeople are probably going to take a much less refined look at how we've hit the model or not and that's did we produce enough power to cover all the power needs of the building at the end of the year. And did we or did we have to pay the electric utility money because we underbuilt on the solar and we're the end the building is using more power because of occupancy because of whatever, which makes me think we should maybe have a more realistic eye about the level of occupancy we can expect and level of use and then plan for more solar panels to cover that. I know we don't want to, I know where the delicate budgeting point, and we may not have tons of flexibility there but my guess is that's how a lot of people in town are going to look at it they're not going to go back and say hey you didn't hit the EUI target or whatever. The bylaw is basic point. The overarching point is you had enough solar power panels to power your building. And I think, you know, I don't know how we can finesse that but maybe make sure the margins on the solar panels are not cut lean but maybe cut even more generously than you're doing now if you have the opportunity at some point, so that we can grow because I think you're right people are going to want to be there in this building. When I look at the charts of the schedules, the summertime schedules look pretty condensed. No weekend use and stuff as I remember them. So anyway that's my big takeaway from today's conversation, and I really want to just congratulate you on all the work you're doing I know when I issue a lot of comments and stuff it may look like I don't understand how hard it is to do this I've been there and I have some idea, and I really appreciate what you all are doing and that'll be going forward. And I hope you start to think about bringing kids in and the staff to do some of this plug load analysis there was a really great chart that I reference in my second letter that an education on energy group did so that kids and their teachers could go through the existing rooms in their school and figure out how much energy was being used by that room and thinking about like this is how many hours this printer is on and it uses this many watts. And I think the result of doing that will be both engagement and also maybe discovering some other equipment that we could get into the stream of of our procurement. That will do better for us with last energy and that's a really important thing going forward. So, thanks a lot. Thank you Rudy. Thank you. Bruce. Well, I echo. Firstly, what Rudy said this is kind of astonishing. I probably sound like a broken record now after a few years of saying I'm always impressed with everybody here, whether it's the committee the consultants.  This is a very rich conversation. I've got a lot to say I'm not going to say anywhere and they're like all of it, of course, I'll probably put some of it into an email it won't be like Rudy's emails which I still stand probably like you do in all because not only does he pay pages he references everything at the on pages nine and 10 which is beyond belief to me. Anyway, so a couple of comments that had first of all, the, the, the, the comment that you made Jacob about and and others as well Kevin I think managing expectations around a successful building. And I think I've said this before, probably a long time ago because I noticed this in the top 10 AI top 10 awards that were being as they were evolving through the early years that some buildings I was critical of because they were quite, they seem to have much higher energy use and I thought was reasonable learning when I started calling the folks who were using and designing those buildings I found out exactly what you said, Jacob, and that the, the reasonable that it was failing and I'm air quoting failure. And this occurred to me that here, if I understand it correctly it wasn't mentioned in the conversation but it seems that we really do have to succeed quote unquote on the, on the, on the EU at 24.9 in year one in order to gain the ever source payment if that's if I understand correctly, that is an important goal, and one that we, we, we have $1.6 million resting or wagered on. It seems to me that someone like me, or to perhaps consider writing one or two opinion pieces, hopefully to publish them in the local newspaper, where I reflect we reflect but since you're almost so busy, like a time I can do this sort of thing, and, and help manage expectations around in in the community around this, and perhaps help understand that in the first year at least, perhaps we might have to be a little more severe in the way in which we try and stick to design schedules and, and, and, and program function. And I think I could probably do a couple of reasonably engaging 700 word pieces on that so I might try and do that. Well, as we move toward the time when the rubber hits the road on this. Another thing that I was wondering about was the, the maintenance, the policy, what is it, the management policy document that Shelley and, and Jacob advocating. I wondered who was writing that who would be producing that and I think I may have missed something when I was making my notes to self because you may have discussed it in that two or three minutes but I was thinking that. Again, I would be available to help draft that so I don't know whether there's something that's going to be run through the town manager or whether this is Rupert's job and he's just going to. Or whether it is a, another piece of work that is paid for under some fraction of the budget but however if it's if it's more than the former then I could avail myself because I did spend about nine or 10 months ago. I had a time writing a so far 10 page document around the, the, the, this stage of the challenges associated with this stage of the project. So I've been thinking fairly deeply about it. And often my services in my assistance is available there if it's necessary, or if it's useful. Another comment was on this checklist itself, Shelley. You were trying to say well trying thinking about how how thorough this document should be and how to communicate more. I don't know whether this is useful or not but I'll say it and you can decide. I often use color as another dimension on a, on a document like this to indicate and it occurred to me that in your comments, you could have one or two or three colors that indicated level of concern. You may not want to, you may not feel you need to, I'm not necessarily feeling there's a need to, because it seems that everybody is so intuitively collaborative here that I think anything that said it's probably going to be dealt with so that's why I'm not sure that this is all that is helpful, but color is a useful presence particularly if, if. Well it's a useful. It's another, it's another variable that can be used to communicate in documents like that. I want to applaud the you and the, and the checklist of raising the question of consideration of global warming potential and the choice of some of these materials. I've said before and you noted that the trying to slope the classroom ceilings I couldn't I couldn't help thinking ah yes I like that idea. I think some of the other things I will. Yes, I think my list is. That's enough for now. I am so impressed with everything that's doing I really did actually read that checklist and I did read the commissionings reports and I did review the energy model. And I don't I don't usually do as much as Rudy does when it comes to reading all this stuff, but I think actually didn't read it, and I didn't write as much as he did. I never will do that. But it's very encouraging. It's very encouraging to see how diligently and how confidently this group and whether it's the media or the design team or everybody just seems to be. Functioning on this project it's it's such it's it's beyond a relief now it's a delight you know initially I was relieved I thought this is great I don't have to claw through these documents the way I thought I was going to have to do. Because you all are doing it far more competently than I could ever do. And now it's just it's getting to be inspiring and I'm really really thrilled to be a part of this even if it's very unofficial. Thank you so much all of you. Thanks, Bruce. I'm Tim I just want to clarify one thing that Bruce said or ask you my understanding of the ever source incentives and this is a double check is the big one is at the construction phase after we built where they're taking look at the modeling and saying, Given the expected use, we're going to hit the target smaller one, the $200 it's not nothing is after year one. Did we hit it. Is that correct. So there, there are several factors so yes there's design then there's construction and then there's a separate one that is if you hit the EUI target and that's, I don't know if it's the smallest of that mall but it is not nowhere near 200,000 so if, for some reason we did not hit the 225 EUI, the I think it's under $10,000. Yeah, no, that's why I was just thinking there were pieces so so Bruce was saying it's 1.6 at risk I don't think the whole thing is, it doesn't mean we don't want to make sure we're trying to design to it but I didn't want to raise the alarm that it like, particularly in the town where we're counting on that. So the really big chunk that the heat pump batter that is not dependent on hitting the 25 EUI thankfully. So, Maria, you've joined the room I did allow you to talk. Thank you. I'll be really brief 1000% to what Rudy said he read my mind and spoke my words. I just like to suggest to Jonathan and Kathy that it, everybody is agreeing that we have work to do as a town to help define what the use of this building is going to be and I think that we can be much more accurate and much more helpful to this team. If we get together and we talk and we really come up with much more accurate estimates of how we think this building is going to be used, it's not going to be a mystery. I mean there will be some things we don't know but there's a lot that we can help with so I hope that we do that in some way as a community to help you build this and design this so that we are meeting our goals and and if that means having more PV then I agree with with Rudy we shouldn't be stingy there. That's it. Thank you. Thank you, Maria. And just so all the participants know I think you know this has been recorded and our team. It's pretty good at getting us the video. So, if you want to go back and check what we were talking about. I always share it with Margaret if that's useful. We get it pretty fast both for minutes. I agree. I thought this was an incredibly rich discussion but I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that there is a recording of this not just people's notes. Yeah, I think Jacob had a follow up comment. Jacob, I just wanted to get a quick clarification going record and it should be credit to Ali for the really excellent comment around expectation management. Well, I'm going to ask for one more round since we've had a round of public comment one more last round of comment from the rest of the attendees and if there's none I will then move us to adjournments. Seeing none, I will say we are done for today and thank everyone for their participation. It was a really good conversation. Thank you all. Thank you all. Happy Halloween. And happy Halloween. Thanks everyone.