So today, very pleasure to introduce Matt Bernard and Alex Harderman. Matt is a PhD student and Alex is a professor at the University of Michigan. Both of them do security research, and they have a focus on e-voting and its security implications. Today, they are going to talk about Recount 2016, an uninvited security audit of the US presidential election. Please give them a very warm welcome and a huge round of applause. Thank you. Both of them are students at MIT, Michigan University. Please welcome them. There we go. Hello, everyone. I'm Alex Harderman, and it's wonderful to be back here at the DCC. I've spoken in recent years about areas of work like geographic attacks, for example, graphic attacks on TLS, Zoom, mapping, as well as post-canning. But today, we're coming to an issue that has been contributing to my heart, and that is the issue of integrity in elections. It's the main theme in the United States. We've seen some unprecedented things during the presidential election in the US. We've seen things that had a great privilege of taking over in what essentially are a line of hack of this election, a lot of things we can do to find out, for sure, whether the election outcome was genuine. This is our first time speaking in front of giving a full election, and the Recount Projects and what we've found in a better place than here at the DCC. This is the place where we're going to present this report or, in principle, the best place in the world where we could present it. Thank you, Alex. As some of you may have heard, some of you have already heard. In the US, elections were held. It was a contest largely between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, and his pretendent was Trump and Clinton, and Trump won. And for many, it was a surprise, because Hillary Clinton winning 71 points was a win. The New York Times gave her an 85% chance. The New York Times said that she had an 85% chance. Sam Wang, a well-known blogger, said that she had 99% chance to win, and generally, the general consensus was that Hillary Clinton was going to win this round. But despite all these polls and posts, Hillary didn't win the election. And here we see one of the leading Sam Wang, a well-known person on television. Trump won the Electoral College in the United States during the direct democracy we have. This thing called the Electoral College, where every state gets a proportion of those top-election elections, and the election is decided. In most states, it's the majority. The candidate that wins the majority of votes in that state gets all of their electoral votes, which turns out to be so important in the way that Clinton won the election. He said that however Clinton won more than 40% of the popular vote in the election in that state, he didn't vote. So this gives you an idea of how Clinton got about 3 million votes. Donald Trump, of course, insists that he won the Electoral College in a line of slide, which is quite true. In fact, he had the 48% of the Electoral College in the Electoral College in U.S. history right behind Harry S. Truman. So he'll go a little long. But what happened? There are two main reasons why it was so wrong. Why was this such a surprise? One is that the whole thing is systematically wrong. Nate Silver at 538 said, and many others have just said, you know, the results were higher unsurpassed than we anticipated. And this is the other explanation is that the election was rigged. It was a position that prior to the election was not supported by the election. This is probably unlikely. The other one was rigging feasible. How would we even know, you know, how are we going to determine whether it was just the polls were wrong or whether or not it was rigged? That is, the first one is that the polls were wrong. The second explanation is that the results were wrong. And now we're going to go through these just such options. So elections in the United States are really quite complicated to pull in. We have a massive scale with about 200 million registered voters. Because we operate in general, mostly the work of running an election has a state that can do local municipal work. And there's a lot of complexity in the process.  Loaded with local races unique to each jurisdiction. And all these difficulties change from one jurisdiction to another. So whenever we look at them, we need to get the results basically on election night where people just find the results. So in the same time, there are 30,000 different voting jurisdictions that are making decisions on how to implement elections. So they're running elections more than 187,000 voting locations or regions. And our technology well, we have 52 different models of voting machines in the U.S. And the choice of which to use is left up to the counties even in some particular cities. This is just to illustrate a little bit of this diversity. You see all kinds of different systems that are comfortable to see and DORE paper. You see different parts of the country. So this is Arkansas. And you can see just the density of the variety can be super small. There's long complicated ballots on engines. There's a lot of Dallas, Texas this year. It's an example of the ballot. This is a great example asking you for your party and your presidential elections. There's the second way. And our system of voting and so on. So we've been trying to count a ballot like this by hand would be a good time if you have to go through each individual race. The fastest way to count the ballots is just to short them to go through a huge amount of ballots and just sort them out and then re-count them. And you can count 185 questions in each ballot. So we use two primary styles of voting machines that those 52 models are usually two large types. One is optical scan voting where the voter kills a particular machine and runs it through a machine and then spits it back out as they say. Remember how complicated these ballots are. We need the computers to help us. The second style is direct recording electronic for the DRA. And this style of voting machine is a direct recording of electronic terminal. It's a direct recording of electronic memory and sometimes the computer prints a piece of paper that the voter can see that is saved for later when it makes a physical memory. And for the first time it may seem to me and including Rob have criticized those early voting machines in particular because they're fully electronic and those with their soul can change their background because in this case everything is on the program. Let's take a look at the D-Bolt which is an electronic machine for voting machines. It was the most common machine for voting machines 10 years ago. One of these machines was made by Audit Safety and I also took part in it. And we came to the conclusion of the next one. In these machines there was a memory card that could be pulled out. This card is taken after the voting and it takes part in the voting process. But what became known was that the people who had access to this card could break the voting machine using a buffer and other vulnerabilities. The second thing we found was that malware well, let me show you here's an election we ran these were the elections that we did as a demonstration of this machine. George Washington against Benedict which was a traitor of the American Revolution and as we voted Benedict Arnold always won. Because no matter how we voted, our campaign would change the voice in such a way that our candidate would win. We need to mention that about 10 machines participated in this case. This voting machine was not. But what about other machines? Let's look at other machines. We studied different models and independent researchers of security and scientists at universities in all cases these machines could be used using a memory card in such a way that the voting results would be wrong. It's not just a machine like DRI which is an electronic program. But also the optical machines with optical scanners are also moving in a different way. The problem is that the paper with printed results could be written correctly but the vote that has been subjected to rigorous independent security has been found to be susceptible to the use of malware spreading on the memory cards to introduce a vote stealer. How do you use this? There are three main ways that we could hack the election. This would undermine the credibility of the election even if it was detected or obviously we could get it wrong and collect it. We could call the denial of the service at the time of the voting. We could take the lines of all really long of what we've encountered and there should be a real interference. Let's say that I can't if I don't like it running I can go about a cyber campaign where the voters would be able to count all the results at the time of the voting because the results can be broken after the election. In the night before the vote and during the vote at that time, you could either interrupt the vote or read the votes incorrectly. We know that in Ukraine there were such problems. In Arizona the campaign manager Hillary Clinton also had his emails hacked. And in almost all of these cases, the U.S. government has formulaed to be electronic. So we know that these kinds of attacks happen. What about other attacks, what about invisible attacks? Let's say we want to influence some other way. And in all these cases, all the time we need to overcome the diversity centralized technology that Alex just mentioned. But this is easy because we do like to call it to be able to cope with these very few states and a very small margin of votes to give you an idea. In this election, you would need to flip the results in two different states, both of which had margins within 1%. First, when you just need to change the result of one state to another, a state where there's not much of a difference and when you ask how they're connected to the internet, as I'm sure many of you know, you control the machines that are not connected to the internet. There's no problem here because they're all programmed with central computers. And so all you have to do is put a virus on this thing and every part that is programmed with the virus that everybody's getting into will become infected. All the electronic voting machines with which it had a business will also be infected. But how likely is this? In the United States, there are a lot of jurisdictions outsourced ballot programming to these sources. For instance, in Michigan, the third company is used, both of which have fewer than 20 employees. This is governmental business solutions, one of which is a small business company that doesn't even have their own website or their own website, like it's called TLSSSL. There are four or five different states and this is their warehouse. You can look at one of the slots of these electronic machines. It wouldn't be that hard to infect these machines in large volumes. The next challenge is... This paper is sort of akin to a paper infrastructure system. We want to have some kind of safe option in case the electronics are not working effectively. The major caveats to be are slow and inexpensive to tally, as Alex mentioned, whereas memory is fast and cheap. Every paper record is available by the computer. You can also scan ballot that the voter fills out and checks before they feed it into the machine. Or it's a paper audit trail produced by the red button that says cast your vote, whereas on memory cards there's no way to verify it at all. So really what we need to do is we need to audit with paper records and this would trivially defeat most attacks. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, 70% of our recorded votes on paper in 2017 is up significantly and the result of voting over the last 10 or so years is also an election integrity to prevent fraud. But unfortunately, let's look at the paper. Unfortunately, you have this great way to defend against an attack, but you never use it. So, in short, hacking an election is actually much much easier than you think. So let's put this together. How would you... What steps before the election? Use pre-election polls like Nate Silberman's why not provide the states that are likely to be closest, that are going to be needed a percentage or so. Step two, target some large counties where their service providers can combine some of the management systems to find out how to combine such a management system by a service provider. Compromise and infect computers that manage to spread your infection to the individual warning machines. Develop an attack for one of these things that are going to be difficult and in a way you need to buy one government surplus and test it out. Finally, step four, your tax deals votes on the computer, but no one ever puts up a paper because I've shown you most states just throw away what they're looking at. So, coming back to 2016, we knew on November 8th excuse me, not December 8th, on November 8th, and at the end of the day when the election results came in we saw that the result was extremely close was surprising compared to the polling. We knew at that point that the result was actually unprecedented in American politics. And we knew that it was feasible for an attacker to change votes on enough machines to have strong deal stability. You don't think what you're saying to me and many others you've been under these circumstances possibly zero U.S. states are going to look at enough paper ballots to know what the consequences have been like. This is a mature gap in the system. The paper would provide a strong deterrent, but if even in 2016 I don't look at any paper well it might as well not be there so at this point it's between election day on November 8th and December 7th which is a deadline under federal law states to lock in the elected college votes if there was fraud that it taken place not to be exposed by this date but to change the outcome of the election What do you think that I and other elections have had the bids not together and started discussing some possibilities but really have a good solution is there any way possible to make state action with the physical evidence they had in a way to potentially detect a cyber attack? So the first question was on the 13th on the Sunday after election day I was on a flight after the election when I got a friend from Los Angeles in New York when I got an email from Simon I could join a phone call in 15 minutes to the phone campaign filling this out might be on the call wow I could go on a flight to this call to work around the airplane what can I do to find a way to dial in to call to this teleconference and the plane I had a long enough for me to talk on this first call and I can hear what they are saying Clinton herself isn't there but the deaths of her campaign manager and many people from the campaign are on this listening very carefully Clinton and Barbara and others should request a review of several key states so candidates under American law have a disability that can depend on the state not as much as Clinton can do it so there were resources the campaign brought up the first one and the most aggravating to me is they wanted to know what evidence we had that the election had been hacked what would have happened to any examination of the paper balance the evidence that the outcome would have been hacked look at the have the evidence because all we can do is say that it would be possible to have any visible evidence that we need to ensure the correct voting because we don't need to prove that the result is correct but everything they thought Trump and his brother won and there was an interesting incident that Clinton reacted to saying that something could be horrifying it's a direct threat to our democracy well there are two things he could have meant one was Trump said that he wouldn't concede but the other which is kind of a rational thing is well I don't want to accept the results until all the evidence came in to make sure it wasn't rigged all should have been made to a position that not accepting the election result immediately was a threat to democracy and so any kind of tiptoeing away from that would have been a political problem all right so that was the first conversation we had in the conversation it's not convincing but then we were asked to pass the bill but then we had a new idea this time the other election integrity advocate is a wonderful wonderful insight was that any candidate can request a recount my name is the third party is she was playing the green part of Jill Stein in the conversation with her we talked about Jill where she unbelievably was willing to help she really wanted to help she was always champion of the vote not really all that but still enough and most importantly she wanted to help this was an absolutely pivotal moment but then that same day at about six o'clock in the evening what may have been the biggest setback that is New York magazine there was a story about the conversations that we were having in New York information that had been provided by the to the press in violation of everyone's confidence by the person here and it's the candidate that got all the facts wrong to turn the question the result of the vote in three states well wait a minute where where there is a certain but that's all at this point a certain hint that may have happened wrong and at that moment my phone started to ring and it was a week I checked my voice mail yesterday and I said I'll call back on Monday so what I did to try to not have to answer the press in a way that says well we don't really have any evidence end of story in which I present the case for recounts that the only way to know whether an attack occurred is to look at it and please do not attack when we a candidate needs that so what really has been an ongoing media circus around the recounts and unfortunately this narrative some kind of secret evidence or not has been circled around and in this one show you why these recounts were essential and what evidence are you able to provide so what happened next on the 23rd the day before Thanksgiving the same day Jill Stein was going to lead an effort to recount how he would have stayed he was two days a crowdfunding campaign that Jill and the Green Party led raised more than 5 million dollars the reverse that's more money than she raised for her entire president campaign well and in a few days in two weeks she collected $160,000 160,000 individual donors it's absolutely people care patently not the integrity of our life the next question now we have the money we have to figure out where to count so in order to figure out where to count if I were an attacker where would I want to attack and as I said there are several states in the US the difference between the parties including Michigan and Pennsylvania together they have 46 votes and in general these three states could determine the voting results if both candidates were about the same but we thought our chances were pretty good so in Wisconsin to start us off the margin was just under 23,000 votes about 0.8% and every ballot that is cast in Wisconsin has a paper record and as I mentioned the candidate can demand a recount and each county in Wisconsin decides how to review can count all the votes by hand counting all the paper or you could just run the ballot and Wisconsin that decision is left up to the counties in Michigan the margin was about 11,000 votes and by the way Michigan is also where we live so it was sort of convenient 10,000 votes and Bowell states that any aggrieved candidate can pay a statutory fee in this state any of the candidates can ask for a recount by paying a certain amount of money to decide how the recount will be done and the local committee will decide how the recount will be done unfortunately in Pennsylvania they used this machine like DRI that doesn't leave any trace on paper three citizens from every precinct that wants to be recounted must post a bond swear that there is fraud and and I have to get a recount done in Pennsylvania and I have to get a recount done in Pennsylvania and I have to get a recount done and I have to get a sanitary and I have to pay a certain amount to ask for a recount unfortunately if the margin is less than half a percent but unfortunately the margin was just shy of that in Pennsylvania other states where Donald Trump allegedly has heard tales of fraud and so the three he pointed out Virginia, New Hampshire, California to get a recount done past six days after the election six days after two weeks after the election it's actually illegal to recount an election if the margin of victory was greater than 1% in the state of Virginia generally forbidden to conduct a vote vote if the difference between the candidate is at least one percent and all of this is to say that Trump could have also every candidate is entitled to initiate recounts in the United States so if he really cared about voter fraud he would have initiated recounts some country to kick out out of that. Alright time to let the recounting begin. Now I'm going to give a day after that giving November 21 is when this was the day in the state of Wisconsin began a formal recount and this is just two days after the recount initiative after the recount initiative was announced and then the next day after the next two weeks before that December 13 deadline. So two and a half weeks after the election President Trump was not elected and I say that I hope that elections and election security in countries around the world and I can say that no one in the United States actually in one of the countries of the world has used to vote against all these crises and I'm sure this should be on the other end of the election and Donald Trump and I can tell you a little bit about what we have but we have what we have. So Trump alleges among other things that this is all just a scam to help the Green Party its lawyers would continuously oppose these people that was in all three states in an attempt to stop the recount from beginning and halt them once they started. Now Matt and I at this point basically just raises a winning role while others did the real work. Put it in the army that the Green Party volunteers more than 10,000 volunteers or the individual will read out centers of all the states to observe who provided legal assistance on the ground of all the system-wiling petitions in Pennsylvania. And also and critically in connection with voters. We are still lucky that we had a great lawyer, Brinker Hoff, Matt Brinkenhoff, who is a specialist in specialization for topics like civil rights and election law. And those who have been involved in the recount efforts in one way or another. And over the course of about a week and a half, they had a thousand different court actions in state federal court in support of the recount efforts. We also test the army of leading electronic voting experts who helped us to be the experts. So what does a recount look like? Well, I don't know that it's exciting. It's a bunch of people sitting around looking at that type of data. Matt and I went and acted as recount observers in Washington accounting measures and actually got to be a part of the process for a while. So basically what happens is that they recount one presentation to two people who look at the views of the county, who look at the results, they count the votes, then they divide them into stacks according to who the Mark candidate was, then they count the stacks. All the while, there are observers from any political candidate on the ballot who wants to have observers present who are watching to make sure everything's right, and they can raise a challenge if they see any kind of error in the process. That's the same. The floor of the process takes any of the four hours to recount a precinct that will be of about 2,000 ballots. But with parallelization, you can see a lot of people here at the end of the day, so most people finished and gone home, can actually recount this process fairly quickly. It's nothing like the floor of 2,000 votes in Washington to be able to recount. It's not what's in Florida where you need to recount it. It's also like this. Endless litigation. Well, unfortunately, in all three states, as I said, we had opposition from each party. So we were in some cases from the state governments, the states, and had to go to federal court, to federal court, to the state Supreme Court of the United States, to the same Michigan, to be able to recount the vote. This is Michigan, where the voters substantiated the vote in whole state recount before it was completed. This is a Green Party protest in front of the state of the court in the middle of the war. This is a mention that there was a media circus in the news just about every day. I, at one point, it's just so ridiculous, had a camera crew, a photographer, a writer, a lighting guy, another photographer, a sound person, and a director following me around in an elevator as I was going from court to court. And it looked like this. So I think it's probably Philadelphia, where in Philadelphia, the federal court, to convince a judge to recount the vote in all states, or at least in some circles, because this thing didn't provide any mechanism that we could use to directly petition for it. So recounts also look like this. And how moderately people do what they think is right. Many men are working together. But ultimately the recounts ended. And Matt's going to tell you what the results were when the elections ended. So as you know, Donald Trump won the electoral college on December 19th, submitted its votes. What's more to say? No state actually finished a full-hand recount when all of a sudden done. Wisconsin, almost all of their counties were hand-recounted. But as I mentioned, they counted almost all of their hand-recounted votes, and all told about 400. They ended up having it after about three days. And then legal arguments over the term agreed. So what did we learn? Or what are the takeaways here? Wisconsin was a state-wide recount. It did complete hand-recounted by the U.S. and then 21 hand-recounted by the U.S. There were 11,000 83-ballot corrections found in the recount. And this was, by the way, 11,883 changes left over. They got to come election night. And by the way, that's more than half of the margins of the elections. And the result in Wisconsin would have flipped by the time they weren't only about 397 votes changed. And all told, they didn't have any, as I said, any evidence of attacks that didn't actually happen here in Michigan. They didn't finish a full-hand recount. And so we know about where we counted, which is what we're sending out, and how we count it. And what's the actual data? The results were calculated. That is, 43% of all the votes come in. But in Pennsylvania, the recount got off-ground. Because the view to go forward, one county actually even showed as I know about 167, they only recounted 143 of their 228 precincts. They have not published results, but only in one district it was read manually. And only 143 out of 228. That's what we learned. In Detroit, in Wayne County, Michigan, there were huge systemic issues. In fact, 7% of precincts they found more votes for president than there were actual ballots cast just out of that factor. And there were more ballots than, in fact, voters. With this, basically, there's this notion of recountability where, in order to recount a ballot, poll workers have to... There's this notion of recountability until when the ballot being recounted was upheld. And this includes things like poll book logs, tamper proof seals on the bags that have ballots in there, and they had to look at the hacker. And they had to look at the stamp that had the same seal on the documents, and they had to look at the polls off of the bags to tear open the ballot bags. And, you know, no one will ever find out that you know. So, you know, we'd find evidence maybe from the wrong wrong, nobody will know you will know. Do you even read the evidence that we did get from the recounts? We tried to do it, but what we really like to do is look at the statistical risk that we could use randomly across a state or across a county or however you would like to do it. And you hand count them, and you can choose those that hand count resolved to verify what it seems to us. But unfortunately, most law states and I think no state actually have a law that maybe one. What we actually wound up with, of course, was in one random county with samples. So what do we do? How do we draw conclusions from that? Well, we can rule out some attack scenarios for instance in statewide fraud. You know, it's unlikely that we have any evidence that every time a story were about to happen, what about the scenario? So we're still waiting for a complete analysis. We didn't even want to test for a probable attack on a state level. So our model is some subset of random to presume that the attack would be an opportunity to get to it. And basically we sample counties at random and change 10% of the votes until we have enough to flip the election in that state. If the random numbers were recounted by hand then we consider that attack detected. So what we find is that in Wisconsin we're able to change 10% of the state. What we find is that in Wisconsin you only need to honor that and have enough to throw results. And fortunately, because Wisconsin had almost all counties do a hand recount, the chances of being undetected are pretty pricy. In Michigan there's much tighter margin, much tighter margin of thought about those. So you need to know what's your chance to flip through the results of a full vote. And because the Michigan recount didn't actually finish the chance of the attack going undetected is higher than it was before. It's a little bit higher than it was before, but actually we counted by hand. In Pennsylvania we threw the results and we got a higher margin and we part of one nation did a hand recount. So the chance of going undetected there was very high. So what do we look overall? The recounts support that the election outcome was correct. I can sleep at night knowing that Donald Trump won the election and having no doubt. There is not strong evidence that Donald Trump won the election. We have no clear evidence that the election was changed. So, like we said cyber attacks already happened before. If any of the attacks happened before because of the presidential investigation we got intelligence agencies that really influenced the outcome. But overall we can sleep at night but we can't completely rule out fraud. So, the recounts were complete. What I thought at the beginning is that the election was that well the election probably wasn't hacked. We were looking through the cants what we learned that the election was not hacked. What we learned that the election wasn't hacked we get additional basis for confidence in the election. But at the same time there was more confidence in the result of the election. What I found that hacking the election would be well even easier than I thought if someone wanted to break it it would be much easier. But how central the points of attack are that control voting machines and such small businesses well, that was news to me and many others. So, finally states are to look at it with the paper even in a surprising and complex way. But with the recounts at least we had some enough to gain some amount of statistical confidence. Even if a candidate can force the recount and this is probably the most challenging of our experience well, there are opportunities for the apparent winner to try to stop it. There are many, many opportunities and there are a lot of barriers to stop any machinery. So unfortunately although we have some amount of physical evidence we will probably get the chance what we need in the United States we will never have a 100% chance to exclude this. We need this because even if the 2016 election was the 2020 election might well be the 2016 election was not broken but who knows maybe the next election will be broken in 2021 we need some time to think about the effective protection process of elections of course we need to work on our safe technology to make it less moving in the sense that the paper will say common sense of security by having a paper record in place for every vote we have to go beyond the 100% and there are still a lot of states that need to pay back to do so but most of the people would have to make sure that they have to stay actual means to use all that evidence and to do that we need not recounts recounts are a hack to take place after every major election but she an easy to use mechanism that stays reduced to make sure they elect on a always a right by looking at a knot in the paper states need to act now to make sure that these are going to be in place all of these reforms in time for 2018 and 2020 but it's going to be now unfortunately because of our distributed federal system voting system I think we're unable to see federal legislation to the same electoral commission states I am federal commission we have some time for questions we have a lot of time for questions okay, perfect we have about thanks a lot we have about 10 minutes if you have questions you can ask and I think we'll just start off with microphone 1 I do not believe in paper voting all the same because I lived half of my life since Soviet occupation I have seen many paper voting that ended 99 my portion is the whole 9% of the Communist Party how to make governments to make elections better I have some suggestions how to make the best voting system unfortunately I was not on your previous report about voting in Estonia but I remember that professor Holemann was offered a political party that in the next I don't know whether they got or not proved that they asked for Putin's money absolutely and then we compare the definition of terrorism can I answer your question sir let me address a point about paper is also vulnerable and that's absolutely true we have long history of paper also being hacked it means that we have an opportunity now because we're combining computers paper that's the principle of voting and that's the principle of voting we check to make sure they agree if we don't check that they agree because they need to make paper and electronic system I mean I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure my undergraduate security course could have changed the outcome of the presidential election this year it really is that bad thank you I'm sorry can we please one question do you want to ask questions I'm ready to talk to you one on one afterwards I'm ready to talk to you one on one afterwards if you really have to leave right now please do so as quietly as possible so we can if you're asking a question please make it precise and short if you're asking a question please make it precise and short I want to ask if it wouldn't have been easier to get on the hardware on the hardware on the hardware or if it has been compromised to take care of get your hands on well we did try to get Pennsylvania to get access to the hardware and that's all that's been offered is the one that's made in the government's memory in Pennsylvania that would have been very difficult to get access to the hardware and that would have been very difficult to get on the hardware and only on the hardware and only as looking at the hardware you have access to paper records too but absolutely I support the success of the government too I think that's just another kind of physical evidence my favorite Mike 4 please thank you in the history of the world the history of knowledge it's never been a case where there was a deletion process because it was proven it was proven there's a first time for everything we got a problem in the system in the system of voting no, I don't know but it's always the first time it should have some requirements that will make it unfit for other countries than the U.S. if there's a statistical Yes, it can be done so that if the demand is not for it to be used just about any way that they could count. And then it can also be used, it's not strictly the first pass, the post voting method that we use in the States, it can be used for any of the methods that you use in the same statistical analysis, they are applicable to other countries. And we have a question from the people on the last stream, and we have two questions. Why is the not always done a recount? Good question. It is a really good question. It should always be done some kind of risk limit on it, and it should be done in any way that they could be used. But in the course, because the law is not restricted, right? Yes, we always have a good idea, and we always have to do a recount, even the voting that was clearly passed, as an additional acceptance of security, and especially such hackable technology. And even more so when we use an electronic machine. But we don't have that yet, because the legislation has not yet sung for technology. Second, it would not make sense to, in your opinion, to, in all the states, the legislation on voting was brought to a certain level. One of the issues is the United States as a federal system, so the state will do most of the rights over what they can do. And so there are, it's like the federal recognition that you're right to do. And at a federal level, it would cost, but it's much, much more than a constitutional issue. Just saying all votes will be done this way. Believe it or not, in the United States, the constitution doesn't even say that the states have to have an election to decide who their presidential votes will go to. They can just pick it by whatever method the legislature decides. So we really do have to go and say by thing. What do you think the federal system has to do with the one that was brought to a vote? The federal system has to do with the one that was brought to a vote. All right, so, what do you think the federal system has to do with the one that was brought to a vote? It looks to me that the reform is itself a political process, so perhaps how your efforts to improve the technical aspects of acting on voting have to do with the wider issues that other people are struggling over, such as factor suppression due to felony convictions, and positioning of ballot boxes and all the rest that's well-known in the U.S. Well, there certainly are a lot of issues with elections in the U.S. and in many other countries. And as you say, those are a number of other ways that people's votes are sometimes being suppressed or are not being carried out. Our expertise lies in the technology, and so that's the primary area. And I think what you do get to work with some election integrity advocates who work in certain parts of the country, but I agree with you, the politics and the election security are so much better than what you want. I don't think it should be related to whether our votes are going to be checked to make sure they weren't hacked. We should all want to make sure they're checked, whatever our political affiliation is, but unfortunately, there's always resistance wherever the opposition is. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Mark, phone six please. Thank you very much for your talk. Thank you very much for your report. One question you haven't looked at is the particular hacking can mean a lot of things. There were an awful lot of machines in Detroit that just didn't work or were mainly calibrated. Do you appreciate how much we need to contribute to fix the entire part of the system? Well, we touched on systemic failures, particularly in Detroit, and I think that the solstice to defend failures and end of things like voter suppression due to lack of funding in a district are thought by the state government, but it's not enough to provide funding to buy better voting machines. So beyond that, it's much more complicated. I can't believe it. All right, look for two please. Thank you for your work and talk. Moving away from the Donald Trump scenario, you said most to all winners oppose recounts. So the question is if they can be confident that they would be confirmed as a winner, why do they hold recounts? Well, it's a good question, and this has been my empirical observation. Every country where I work on life and security, and I think it's been a near suggestion that they might have been all done by themselves, that they would be down with the Trumps. Well, it's one of the time and effort of their lawyers opposing that possibility smaller. I think people seek to move past an election so quickly after the votes have come for the first time. But there are really crazy times that they have to seek evidence to have the other candidates and that's taking a constant to moving on is part of the problem. It really makes the whole issue so much more difficult to deal with. I think we only have a little amount of time left, so please be quick with your decision. I think there's value in end-to-end verifiable elections and cryptographic techniques to interact with people. Absolutely. But the complexity of the system might be so difficult to deal with after local election officials will be out there and it won't be easier. Right now I have that. I think it's difficult to deal with after local election officials will be out there and it won't be easier. Right now I have that. Okay, I think we have a lot of time. Yes, they have such techniques, but unfortunately it will only make the system more difficult. Please, applaud the speaker.


Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, and Mrs. Ravens. Pakistan, their government, has remained slower in their opposition to the Soviet Union's brutal aggression. America deeply admired when Pakistan said fascist and bravery in this noble state. France, who had fled their country, the single largest in Islamic hospitality. United States is proud to be assisting you in this most humanitarian enterprise. You're outstanding, or even more impressive. Some might even say amazing. In light of the offensive refugee burden with me, firmly exchange. Please talk to give us an opportunity to reaffirm our commitment to stand together. Mr. President. Yes, he rotating this visit to the United States and central part of Islamic belief. Commitment to the democrat has gratified that the transition from martial law to constitutional law has been accomplished in peace and stability. Our concern in the face in our struggle. The President of the United States, Mr. President of the United States, has come to us. I would like to give a very strong message to Moscow, in regard to their recent threats that we discussed. I don't have a big decision yet. You invited me to visit your UNO, sir, for the last 16 months after I took over as Prime Minister of Pakistan. I'm extremely busy in my country. I was really delighted when I received your invitation. First of all, I thought I must come and visit you, meet you personally, and talk to you about the problems we are facing in our region. Member members of the delegation, I would like to introduce you to them. Some of them are from the foreign minister and second minister, the chief minister of Punjab province. One of the biggest problems that we know about Ambassador here and Ambassador here. Next to you, Mr. Markersen, he's the new Ambassador who will be now speaking over in the United States from now. He'll ask you what will be the final minister of Pakistan, sir. He took over after the gift to the Marshaigar. First, final minister of Pakistan, after Marshaigar.


Cidoo and I are getting some arenas in today. We're his fan. It's a it's a relearning process, but we're getting after it. It's it's been really, really fun. Hey, what's up, dude? Oh, I'm excited to find the play, dude. I played this yesterday and it was horrible. Dude, the mana regen is really bad. That's that's like the biggest thing that I noticed. If you hit no like zero mana, it's just like miserable. Just passive regen. I think this is just really low gear. It feels like no healer stands a chance right now. Like I was just keeping Rook Mage. Literally just kill like priests and Druids in the opener. Like, we'll see how this goes with Brett rest of shaman. I'm just horrible. Like I already know it. Here's the thing. It's going to take time to take to like get practice and getting used to like TPC and just the speed of it and everything, you know. So do you have a weapon on this guy? Yeah, I have a hammer than Aru. Oh, yes, I'm hitting pretty hard. This is good. They did such a bad job giving rest of shaman gear. Like we literally don't have rest of gear. It was all elemental stuff. I think they gave it to like some intern. There's literally told an intern to just like give them some gear, but like all the gear was wrong. I didn't expect this hammer. Oh my God.  And I just like stack that with strength. Oh my God, bro. That thing is nuts. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Did I actually like one of the better weapons? Yeah, it is actually. It has a lot of ends, but like I don't mind at all. It had so much strength and stem though. Yeah. Yeah, like I don't care at all that it has a much end because like just the mana issues are so bad right now. Like I have 6k mana, 6200 mana. I'm still like always running out. Warlock Shadow Priest. Okay. Shadow is the story. Although I will sit on the Warlock actually.  Yeah.  I'm going to get closer towards you. I might get CS there. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm actually going to LOS. I'm trying to kill this pet. I'm pretty glad this guy doesn't use CS. I don't know why I'm here. Back out. Try and drink one of you at a chance. Do you have other good items? Yeah, I'm actually. All right. Yeah, I'm actually drinking. Okay. This is the first time in beta that I actually got a reset in a game. Nice. Yeah, I pushed out. I'm on behind. Yeah. Going to go on here. Good. This guy up there. I'm going to wings. Oh, I lost you, bro. This game over, dude. Oh. Turn around, turn around. We're just coming in. Pick the heal. Oh, I'm insane. Nice. Good job. Good job. That's clean, dude. Those are really, really good. We're back. Oh, that's nice. I told you about us not being good. Dude, it's funny because like, I remember back in the day, if you even had a shaman who could earth shock a heal while healing, it was just like, yeah. I remember there literally being like two good shamans that I played with and all burning crusade. And you just couldn't find it. I actually remember going into wrath and it was like when faction changes came out and everyone kind of went on the same server and I just like randomly got into a five steam with then and like soda on all the pros before I was like well known. Yeah. And they were like blown away.  Like you're using your shock so much. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, buddy. It's really good. Is it? Yeah, I'm trying to get my my keybinds and stuff right because now I have this like weird mix between like retail and classic keybinds now that I have to do just from being used to doing arenas. I don't even know how to explain it. I was trying to do threes last night and then I was trying to do sperms in between cues and my brain couldn't even function and like I'm trying to press my rip tide bind on this character. That's not there. Yeah, I try to walk myself in a game not too long ago. Just like spam my walk button. It's like, okay. I thought a repout and aren't supposed to play Crusader Strike with this. I thought you're supposed to like twist seal or something. You can. I'm just doing this like there's just like different builds like people go like reckoning and they try and get like reckoning and seal twist everything together with RNG kind of far back here. Oh, I can go go.  They're on me. It's going to turn on you. They give me sack when you can. Yeah, I'm spanning it. I got it off. It's going to get the blind. Okay.  Stand my loss. I'm going to Lester. Yeah. I'm going to wings. Stun him. I still, we're still okay. I hope you're 10 months as a fan. I'm going to make a few it again. Take CS here.  I don't have bubble. I need an issue actually. Okay.  Drop my fire now here. I don't think I got him. He's dead. Got him. Nice. I don't think I got him. I'm pressing so many. Okay. Oh, wait.  I don't have bubble. I don't have bubble. No. Wait, I win these. I win these. I win these. Okay. There's no way. All right. This is actually one of the only classes I could never beat. No wonder you went back into there. Yeah. Yeah. Warlocks are just like some nuts right now. Yeah. I didn't have bubble because the wings give you forbearance. I just, I tried to push it whenever you're lusted. That makes sense. You know, I have no idea. Echo Marie, thank you for the 10 months. She skirt thing at the time. I hate not being able to see where we're fighting. Yeah. Lock priest. I'm courage to lock up. Okay. Yeah, go lock actually. I have a trimmer down too. So you don't need to change appears the most part. Whenever you want to like use CC, I'll. Okay. I'm lost. Yeah. I still haven't gone to have you lusted in. Oh, you did it. Okay. I did. Yeah. Sorry. Wait again. I swear. I didn't see like an animation for it. It's all good. I'm just going to crush my thumbs.   I'm giving him need the eights. Yes, you're actually. That's almost dead, man. You turn to pet actually. Yeah, I can't see. I don't worry. No, I don't worry. Got it. It's actually going to go mad at really hard, man. Yeah, that's good. I need to judge myself. Yeah, I'm going to give you a blessing wisdom at least. I'm going to back out. I'm going to back out. Sure. Sure. Sure. It's pretty smart. Go for a drink though. Yeah. Actually destroy. Yeah. He's drinking. I wonder if you can drink while this guy is still low. Yeah. I just need a couple ticks. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I'll give you a man's ring. Sorry. Okay, good. Yeah. So I'm just going to sit until they force me up. I'm just going to keep healing until they force me up. I think it's okay. Oh, wait, what? You could just forever drink while he's attacking. Yeah. Because he's just like spamming dots on me, which I'm going to get us right now. But it's okay. Yeah. I got a trimmer down here. Oh, trimmer down for the fear maybe. Nice. So he's going to clear here. I trimmer down. I killed it with that actually. You're in a little bit trouble. Okay. Far from you as well. Oh my God.  Yeah, I got wings up. Actually, I'm super far from you. Can you come down the ramp? Yeah, I killed him. I killed him. I killed him. Oh my God. I saw that one. Oh, that was so good. I wanted to just tell him that. Oh, that was so good. Dude, the wind fury into a seal twisted. Oh, that was beautiful. I did so much damage to him. That was amazing. He actually destroyed that guy. Yeah, that was nuts. Oh, nuts. Letting me get that much drink was insane. I'll come to you so quickly. I'm just curious. Like, is that something that's always going to happen? I don't know yet. I haven't decided. We can at least wait for this guy's shield to fall off. I guess we're going to kill Locker Hunter. I think I want to go lock him. I'll try to meet him. Oh my God. It's UA. Oh, he's dead. He's dead. Let's kill him. Let's do it. Okay. I'm going to go wings. Yeah, for sure. Starting. Oh my gosh. I'm probably going to Fraushock stuff for you. Yeah. I almost think you should. It depends on the comp. I can just rank one Fraushock just so you can hit stuff. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. For the most part, we fill each other's gaps like pretty perfect. Yeah. It's actually nice. I get you out of fears. You can get me out of like Polly's and stuff. Freedom's good. Actually, if I'm good. Mage and Rat. Rat? Yeah. I'm going to go on the rat right now. Yeah, sure. Purging him up. You want lost immediately or what? Yeah. I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait here. You want to get to me here? Try to avoid him. Yeah. If you can get to me, I'll sack you. Cool. You want to go rat? Yeah. I'll go rat. OK. When you hodge, I will lust. OK. OK. You hodge me. OK. You should go on the lust now, I think. Lust it here. You're on for this boy. You're on it. Got bubble nice. OK. Yeah, this guy. Oh, man. This is crazy. OK. I'm going to spell spell scroll. Nice. I get it. He trinketed the... Or he spell sold the thing. I'm getting back on Paladin. Wait, what? This is BS. OK. I apprentice mage. Oh, that's so good. Groundpaw here. Oh, this guy's having a really bad day. OK, trinketed that stun. OK, he's dead. Yeah, dude. Lust, it's just... It's so much, dude. Lust, Winfury, all that stuff is... I don't even think you have Winfury. I'm sorry. I forgot to like it. Well, just like the whole other thing. It just sacks up so much. It's not... Sack, dude. Sack. Really good, really good.  Oh, my God. Can you hodge this guy? We win, I swear. Oh, no. Happy birthday, dude. Is that a global? I'm trying to... OK, I got him out. I'm cheap shot. OK, I apprentice the... Hey, I'm actually going to justice this rogue. I'm going to last here. Yeah, I'm going to bubble. Er, wings, wings, I mean. Sorry.  I think I can kick for fine. Yeah, I stun Druid. I stun Druid. One hard on Druid. Trinketed. I got heals for you, dude. Yeah. He actually kicked me. Oh, these guys are professionals, dude. You on you? I'm blinded here. It's going to break. It's bad, it's bad, it's bad. I think he'll stick, he'll stick, he'll stick. Nice. I'll approach the inner bait. Zoom. Oh my God. Nice. Nice, really good, really, really good.  It's fine. And just see if you can survive as long as you can. OK. He's innovating. Dude, I don't have my arrow shot found. Wonderful, wonderful. He run towards me. I got a heal right now, sorry. OK. I'm tossing a big heal.  Oh, it's so close to going off. The inner bait for Druids is just absolutely insane right now. I think he kicked her. Casting, casting, OK. I want the Druid for now. OK. I'll try and get to you for a win, Jerry. OK, I'm turning back to Rogue, actually. I'm going to turn back to Rogue.  I lost. Oh, he's dead. Ennest your lightning. Oh my gosh. Oh, dude, I got two in a row, just massive crits on top of the chain lightning. No chance, dude. No chance. No chance. Well, can they shadow step himself and jump through it? Yeah, I guess I could. But I guess getting stepped out of the way is probably good. Well, I stand on this and I try and shadow step. Because that'll happen. Yeah, I was going to say. I got a flamethrower right here. Oh, double Rogue, double Rogue. I probably need Bob in the open or something. I'm just going to go ahead and give it to you now because they're going to be like something crazy. Okay, I'm just going to machine lightning this guy. How'd you do that? Yeah, good. Then this one. Take those. Yeah, if your back is on the rope, you actually get them. That's so funny. Can you finish him? Oh my gosh, really? Probably. Well, I was hoping my Consecrate would kill him or something and it just wasn't dying. I was like, okay, fine, let's look at this. That's the timing right as soon as I said I needed it. I was like, how many of you are going to fall off? Okay, I'm disarmed, so I'm going to do wings in like 10 seconds. I might have the warrior. This is just going to be annoying. He's going to get dots up here. Can you lust? Sure. What's up? I'm going to search for shield here. I can take the heal as well. I'm going to grab some, some, some, some, some. I can't bubble. Probably not someone else. Okay. I'll try and take this heal. Take this one. Can't take that heal.  I'm just going to slide for you. I'm just doing big damage here, man. Okay, help me with damage, help me with damage. Nice. Yeah, there was so much, dude, there was so much damage. Like even, even with all the big procs or whatever, you have so much damage too because they, even if you had just plus healing gear, because you have a lot of melee gear, right? Yeah. If you had, if you have just plus healing gear, they changed it at the end of Burning Crusade and we had that at the beginning. You're going to spell damage. That's 600 damage right now. See, that's nothing. Okay. No, I die here. Look at all these knockbacks.  That's absurd. Dude, my, my cast actually got knocked back 50 times. I was like a 16 second healing surge. It was just the pet, I guess. Really? If I urshill on myself there, I would have been flying because it wouldn't have been able to knock back. Yeah. We barely like, if we had just a little bit longer on that game, I think we would have won because my wings just came back up too. And they were room. That's your dream. I actually, I actually think I got unlucky there, but I should have just urshill on myself. Like I didn't, I didn't respect knockback. Oh wait. I can't do anything. There's the reduction that's called. I actually can't do anything. It's so funny. Oh my God. I can't do anything though. Here, please. Okay. Oh my God. I'm dead here though. Wendy's Espen. I'm dead. I want to present. I'm dead. Oh. I'm going to get on a rogue, I think. Sure. I could stop phones right now if he goes for it. Okay. Go on the lust. Oh, I'll stay on the lust, I'll stay on the lust. Is this a rest? No, he's a pearl. Oh, I'll play Chuck this guy. Oh my God. I'm destroying him. Are you kind of dead? No. No. Nice. I think you live, I think you live, I think you live. Okay, I'm going to LOS a little bit. Or not LOS, but kite. Nice. Sweet. These games are so weird, man. I know. It's just sometimes you just have to wait and then just clap them. I wonder if you get a good opportunity. That rogue had a deep prep evasion. Evasion, prep evasion. That was so long. I'm going to go ahead and bop you. Sure. You mean just getting here?  I'm going to wings. Sure. Can you lust? I'm trying. I can't stop this sheep on you. Okay. I got him. Oh, nice. Good. I got the cheap death. Perfect, perfect. I could have honestly probably just airshocked that guy there, but you know the NS. It just, it just feels good. Honestly. Why is this guy killing me? Oh, he stole the lust. He stole the lust. Uh-oh. Dude, I'm so bad. It's crazy, man. I got him. Oh, man. Dude, the burst potential is so high. Dude, this comp is actually really good. Last thing I can. I'm just going to airshock. It resisted it. Oh, maybe it's because it clicked. I'm so bad, man. It's okay. My ground is there. Did you feel the road? No. Plus. I'm rough. Oh, miss. I already got his cheap death, too. That's total troll. Oh. I don't have any bandages. I'm dead here. I can't do anything. Yes. There's LOS. This little pillar is so OP. It's funny. Okay. There's a man with a blank. Yeah. I don't think you can kind of spell me, but I don't have anything. It's just so... Just one tick. That was so funny. I was just hoping for one tick. Just one tick so I can defend it and heal. That's all I was hoping for. I'll try to go on this one. I'm going to last defend. I'm going to last defend. Last, last, last, last, last, last. Oh, my gosh. Perfect.


This 10th year of Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners, thanks to all of you, including Matt Zaglin, Kelly Cook, and Scott Hepburn. Coming up on DTNS, Microsoft's new Thunderbolt 4 dock is getting a lot friendlier. Google says our bad about the whole Google Drive caps thing, and let's meet our new astronauts. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, April 4th, 2023, from lovely Cleveland, Ohio, I'm Rick Schiropolino. From Off Off Broadway, I'm IA's actor. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chen. Hey, we got IA's here, and that means we should probably get going with the quick hits. Here we go. In all of these months of massive Big Tech layoffs, Apple remained one of the few holdouts, but now Bloomberg's Mark Gurman reports Apple started its first round of layoffs since it began cost cutting measures late last year. We don't have estimated numbers, but it supposedly involves a small number of roles in its development and preservation teams, which works at construction and maintenance of global Apple facilities, including its retail stores. The social network post opened a public beta post launched in November 2022 with a closed beta when every other Twitter like social network suddenly saw a lot of interest. The platform's main draw was working with publishers to let users read articles directly in their feeds through micro payments. Publication partners include the Boston Globe Fortune, the Independent Insider, L.A. Times, ProPublica, Reuters, Semaphore, SF Chronicle, MIT Technology Review, USA Today, and Wired. Can't leave Wired out. Apple confirmed it placed its business in Germany on hold, but that it is not leaving the German market. This comes after Apple and OnePlus halted new smartphone sales in Germany last year due to a patent dispute with Nokia around 5G technology. Motorola announced a flagship phone for Western markets, the Edge 40 Pro. It's largely the same as the X40 released in China late last year with typical 2023 flagship specs, a Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 SoC, 165 Hertz screen, 125 watt wired charging and IP68 rated for water and dust. It comes to Europe in the coming days for 900 euros, then to Latin American markets. We still don't know if the device will come to North America, but Motorola said in its press release it's excited to share its commitment to expand the Edge family in North America this year. I'm glad Motorola is excited. That makes my day. PayPal's advanced checkout integration can now accept Apple pay payments from customers. Advanced checkout allows merchants to create more personalized checkout experiences for their shops. It's been around for a while, and it already has integration with Venmo, PayPal, and credit cards. It lets you get a more branded experience for a merchant. Advanced checkout also added the ability for customers to save cards to a secure vault for that particular business. The idea is a customer wouldn't need a PayPal account specifically, but could still have their card info saved securely with that merchant. All right, we've got some Microsoft news. They announced the Surface Thunderbolt 4 Dock. It's a catchy name for $299.99. The new Dock connects with USB-C. That's notable because it doesn't use the proprietary Surface Connect port. Microsoft says it will keep selling its Surface Dock 2, which does include the Surface Connect port that it's made for Surface devices that don't have USB-C or Thunderbolt 4. Now, why is this interesting? It's because the Surface Thunderbolt 4 Dock is the first to support devices other than Surface for the first time. Along with USB-C support, it also supports data transfer speeds of up to 40 gigabits per second and 96 watt charging using Thunderbolt 4. In front is a USB-C and USB-A port. In the back two USB-C ports, two USB-A ports, a 2.5 gigabit ethernet port, an audio jack and a security slot. But there's no SD card slot for some reason. So clearly Microsoft is trying to adapt to what it believes people need. Rich, so in the spirit of that, what do we need? Well, I guess the biggest question Microsoft is hoping is, do we need a Microsoft-specific Thunderbolt hub when, for the longest time, the big differentiator was, well, if you have a Surface device, the Surface Dock made a lot of sense. Honestly, for me the SD card is probably the biggest exclusion or if you're, I'm a photographer kind of guy, so maybe a CF express card slot if you want to be like super forward facing. But I don't know. I'm sure this is an extremely well made device. They're not price gouging. All of these Thunderbolt docks are right around that like 250 to $400 range. So this is right in the middle of that. If you look at something like OWC is the one I always think of when it comes to these kind of things. For me, this kind of lockdown thing, what I'm actually interested in is I want the framework version of a Thunderbolt dock. That's just a bunch of USB-C or Thunderbolt over USB-C ports on there and I can have little modules to kind of dock in there.  That sounds like a very clean way to do pretty much what I think everyone's doing right now. You might get like two or three USB-C ports and then you got to attach a dock to that. And then you got to either have a dock that has more USB-C ports or they have USB-A ports and what's supposed to be a super clean, easy kind of system turns into what I'm looking at on my desk right now. This like looks like spaghetti everywhere. There's wires going everywhere because not everything uses C to C cables, not everything uses C to A cables. So you got to keep messing around with these old devices. Then you've got your legacy stuff like your micro USB to A. You got all of these freaking standards. The idea of the framework dock, if that was an actual thing where basically you're taking the dongle of making it like a little card, right? You're just going to have these small expansion ports. I think the concern is probably to buy the cost on that. If you're going to put Thunderbolt on these things, it's going to be pricey, pricey, pricey. You don't want like a ton of USB-C. Just label some like USB-C and they tell you it's like five gigabits and then one's 10 and then one's like 40 because it's got, I think it's USB, whatever. Somebody is going to get that one right in the comments somewhere. You have varying speeds. You don't have to pay to have all that power for every single port. Yeah. And the other thing that's interesting about this is it kind of completes the turnaround for Microsoft when it comes to this because the Surface Connector has kind of gotten a lot of flack in recent years for being like, that's this proprietary thing. We have USB-C. You have to remember when it first came out, it was 2014. It was pre, you know, the idea of, oh, we have this one port, Thunderbolt or USB-C that can kind of do everything. Apple didn't do, you know, that first generation of like we're doing all USB-C Thunderbolt ports until 2016, right? So you had, they were kind of following Apple's lead with MagSafe, except it was also a connector. Oh, this is like it does two and one. It's not just, you don't have to take up space on your laptop with just a connector. It can be this cool accessory port and they were going to carry it through for generations to allow you to, hey, you don't have to buy a new charger. When you get your new Surface device, all your accessories are still going to work with this cool port. And it just so happened that Thunderbolt and USB-C took off in a really huge way, no small part because of Apple, and kind of then made that a little bit of a collage, which is then weird because now Apple makes MagSafe again, which is basically a single use port that's taking up space that they got a ton of credit for, for reintroducing back into their laptop life. It's just a weird reversal for me on this. It is a bit strange. I'm thinking about the, the, the cheers that people had when it came to MagSafe coming back and they're like, oh, you free up a USB-C port, that's great too. So like, my answer, that's like just throwing another USB-C in there if you can, especially if you can support the amount of power demands that this laptop or any other computer is going to have. It's a strange, strange world we're in. It looks like if Microsoft is letting this go and Apple's going to do what Apple does, I'm not going to mess with that. But like this idea that the Surface Dock can be used for things that are not the Surface at all, and that actually is better for Microsoft in general. If they want to sell hardware, I don't think they're going to get like a halo effect from a Microsoft Surface Thunderbolt 4 Dock. Like, oh, this is really great. I want to buy a Surface, but at least when you, you know, it works with the Surface no matter what. And now it works with stuff that's not the Surface at all. I think that could be a benefit to a lot of people out there who are looking for a solid, well-built device that likely will, like the company will exist tomorrow because a lot of these other USB-C docks I see sometimes, they're by companies you never heard about and I'm like, can they trust the one year warranty? Will they be here in three months? I don't know. The one thing with the lack of the SD cards like just thought of this, maybe this is a signal that Microsoft plans to be putting SD cards lots in all of their Surface devices for the foreseeable future. In that case, I'm okay with it not being on the dock. As long as I got it, that's all I care about. I want less dongle in that situation. Wishful thinking for less dongle. Well, one thing we don't have wishful thinking about is the status of live audio chat rooms, IS. Can you fill us in on some of the latest developments here? Yeah, so along with jobs, one of the other things that seems to be on every company's cut list is live audio experiences. Last year, MetaCut many of its audio products and now Spotify announced it will kill off its dedicated Spotify live app. I know all of you are really worried about that. There's millions of you out there use it, but it's probably not too surprising since it canceled much of its live audio content back in December. Spotify still says it sees a future for live fan creator interactions in the Spotify ecosystem.  Yay. That streaming provider title has announced live as a way to let subscribers share live DJ sets with other subscribers. And this will be featured on your home screen with from your friends. So if anyone you're following is on there, as well as featured from curated live set list on their homepage, they're kind of providing a way to do that. Definitely a different take on this shared but still live audio experiences. You know, we're seeing this decline in the chat room kind of we saw kind of blow up during the pandemic IS. Does user generated music seem like it will have maybe more staying power on this front. I think the way title live would be working. I think it would make sense because people are tuning into essentially somebody's playlist or radio station is like hey look how great my music is. I want to share that with people so people can kind of go around that I never really understood the idea of things like clubhouse and then these audio forums it's like didn't we as a society all agree we don't want phone calls we don't want to talk. We want to see text and then if we want to join in on something we'll all like show up to like a theater or something and then someone will present so you can have a small club you go okay I'll pay attention to this but you got like anybody can come in anybody can talk you basically on the subway. So why on earth would you ever want this as a product. I mean, I guess there was a loneliness during the pandemic. I want to get a voice I need a voice and I don't always want to use a camera. I get that. But I think a lot of it is, you know, if somebody's presenting something you can have an audio community around them, like, I don't know anything ever at this point, or video people around them going oh yeah I'm going to join in because I'm actually ready to do this. And then they could always default back to the nice safety of an actual text based chat room. So that's what I think on that. Yeah, I do feel like, like, discord certainly stepped into in a lot of ways fill that gap where it's like oh this is a community I'm already in that has like a mission and a functionality I don't have to seek it out and whatever kind of it's not grafted into something I'm using like Twitter or Spotify, or I don't have to go to this whole new community and clubhouse or something like that I do feel that's part of it. Definitely the loneliness like it is, it is easy to forget where we were all mentally like in 2020 2021, depending on you know how long you've been at home and your situation there so I could I totally could can see the rise of this what's interesting though. There's a new idea what what title is doing here I mean certainly like turntable FM back in the day was this the very much this kind of idea it wasn't the most, you know, licensed idea wasn't tied into monetization the way of a music streaming provider is these days and Spotify itself tried something like this, they still offer it it's called group sessions and this came out same thing in the pandemic remote group sessions I should say they have kind of a two different in room and remote but unlike Spotify is a vision of this was very you're going to share it with a specific number of people so you would share like a URL with up to seven people that could all join and they contribute to the playlist title is very much a curator play so even if they're your friend, you're trusting them to do all of the curation within this right there's no there's really no interaction built into it at all other than. See how many people are kind of viewing your thing it's feels a little bit more I mean honestly it feels like it's it's more focused on creators right in the same way that you would do like a YouTube live or something like that and yeah you can have people watching that I do think it's weird that there is no community element to that. Another thing that's weird is this is all subscriber based right you have to be a title subscriber to be able to access this like if you click on the link that someone shares with you, you either have to send it for a free trial or you can't access it in any way. Does that seem like I'm thinking of this from a growth perspective like how does that help title grow when it's already a very niche player. That's a really dumb thing when you said that so how does it help them grow I'm going to try to answer that question as if I was title so here's how's here's I think this works. People are going to see these wonderful playlist done by their friends they really want to know what rich his title playlist is and it's so amazing you're like I'm going to sign up it's going to be so easy to sign up and then I will become a subscriber and then I will create a playlist which I will also share and then I will invite more people and then I'll invite two more people and so on and so on and so on like that gum commercial from like 1990, 1980, 1942, I don't know what it was it was a long time ago. But maybe that's it but like otherwise the idea that you can't just share and let people listen and go oh actually I like the experience I like the, the audio quality I like the ease of use of this product to give a differentiation factor. It seems a little bit short sighted but if they're just trying to grow. It's a way to go I just don't know if it's going to like spark. I don't believe this like the killer feature for title I think their main thing is audio quality not share ability. Yeah, well and, and also like artists, their whole artist equity kind of vibe to it. And that's really what feels like a limiting factor for this right is that they have to worry about like how they're going to, you know, pay for these tracks right it's like double FM was fly by night and we're, we're fudging all the details that we get taken down and stuff like that. I mean this is title title is very specific and saying, if you have five friends and they're all listening to us, that artist gets credit for five streams you know when you're when you're sending that out there so that is very much tied into this and I could see that being a benefit as well it's like, oh I'm a fan of this artist I'll join this stream and hey maybe they can, you know, like those kind of social dynamics. I feel like, but I'm just shocked that there's not some they can't figure out some way to do like display ads they have an ad supported tier right like they have that business model built in. You think they could find some way to have it help cast a wider net for their, for their service. It'll be the big edition of a new features like not for non subscribers in like three months like that's still around. We'll see how long this lasts. Yeah, wait for the quick hit of title live is also not alive anymore. But one thing that is alive is know a little more it's Tom's podcast to do deep dive into individual topics and it's coming back it lives this Thursday and it's better than ever. So if you have not yet checked out the show go get subscribed right now. The first episode in the relaunch is all a bar about RSS or a really simple subscription. It's rocky history and how it ended up being the underpinnings of podcasting. You may be familiar with that medium if you're listening to the show don't miss it. Subscribe by Thursday at know a little more.com. One of the big stories of the day Google is reversing its decision to put a file creation cap on Google Drive. Here's some background and might affect you about two months ago Google rolled out a 5 million file cap on all Google Drive users, including people paying for extra storage so not just you know your your free tier people but nobody had a heads up about it so understandably some users logged in to realize that they had millions of files over this new limit and we're not able to upload new files until they deleted enough to go under that limit and in some cases you know they were millions of files over that anyway personal users and businesses were both impacted by this change. So ours technically spoke to a Google spokesperson who said the file cap was not a bug and was actually quote a safeguard to prevent misuse of our system in a way that might impact the stability and safety of the system and quote the company says it rolled the limitation out to stop what it called misuse of Drive. Google also said it intends to explore alternate approaches to ensure a great experience for all. Yeah, that's we got to have those great experiences are right as when it comes to all of our cloud storage. But the problem with limiting drive is that Google charges people for drive storage Google workspace business accounts go up to five terabytes of storage for normal accounts, and you might even have technically unlimited options available if you call Google and negotiate. Google one that's the consumer level option for more Google storage caps out at 30 terabytes and costs $150 a month. Drive also is in a storage bucket of its own since Google encourages developers to build the drive API into their apps and add cloud storage products, or add cloud storage into their products. You know, I as this is kind of been a story that's brewing I've you know I've seen reports of people kind of pointing this out and Google finally has kind of gone on the record to say, I think it's a remarkable say hey this is not a bug. I mean, if you logged in and I had to delete a couple of million files kind of would ruin your day right. I think so I mean it'd be a question why I have so many dang files in the first place but I mean the thing the biggest thing that annoyed people that they didn't say anything ahead of time and Google did say that they will from now on give users warning. Didn't say wouldn't do it again it just says okay let you know we might do something like this again. It's it's such a crazy idea. Like, here's this thing I probably would not have been annoyed by the idea that Google could limit the amount of files. I can put on there already have a terabyte limit or two terabytes whatever my overpaying for, but then to find out it can be five million files, like they don't give you a stat on there's no counter on that. All of a sudden I start thinking, do I have five million files. No I don't have five. It's impossible right now or is it possible I don't know I've got terabytes of junk that I've thrown to drive I've moved from different cloud storage options, and the consolidated all to drive. Are there millions of like little dot DS store but files that are garbage. Yeah, probably, because they would always be created on my max, because I was using like an TFS across class platform sharing will lead to a lot of garbage file creation, which I would then upload back. To my cloud store so this could be a problem for very weird people. But if you're also using drive for your business. That is a whole other can of worms. Yeah, I mean I wouldn't be surprised if we dug into the terms of Dropbox or box or iCloud or anything like that and see that there was some. There was some term in there that company X allows for the limit of blah blah blah if you go over a certain usage or you're deemed to be abusing the system I mean this. The sin here is not necessarily that they would institute a cap. It's that they just turned it on and didn't tell anybody ahead of time. And our second did a great job pointing this out in their coverage of this that Google workspace maintains like a calendar of policy change rollouts. They are very careful because they know they're competing with Microsoft was a pretty good track record when it comes to like rolling out these changes letting admins know. Hey, you know there's going to be new policy enforcement going on we're going to start you know blocking these macros by default or something like that you need to be prepared for that it's like a big deal in the world of productivity and if Google workspace and Google workspace wants to compete in that space. Generally they do a pretty good job of letting you know it seems baffling that Google would just turn this on unless they had evidence of you know they mentioned misuse or stability and safety. I don't know what I mean I obviously like someone could be hosting malware someone could be using it for you know some sort of horrible uploads or something like that and this is like targeted at a very specific subset of users. But we saw people complaining that you know the example that was going around was you know there was a business in veterinary care industry that all of a sudden couldn't access any of their files or couldn't upload new stuff because they were building everything on Google Drive. And all of a sudden they got cut off from that. That to me obviously is the biggest problem here. The one note to have though is that this was to individual like Google Drive accounts if you were sharing files with a bunch of other people. The shared files did not count against your you know your file cap or something like that because I know I was worried about that I have a lot of audio files weird audacity files that have 10,000 files each of them and stuff like that but a lot of those are shared so I wasn't. I'm not taking up someone's cap space and stuff like that. I mean, I think the story would have been much larger if people are titled isn't nobody should do this, you know puppies and kittens endangered by Google Drive. That's possible here and people love their puppies and kittens and everything else so the thing is that if that one particular case does sound pretty interesting but a lot of that like you were saying this particular use case scenario and you got to be ready for this stuff and that sounds really like I've learned my lesson the amount of times I've had oh I only have one drive and it's local. Yeah that's not a good idea. I have a cloud storage I got a backup I got a local backup I got another cloud storage thing. That's solid so that's probably good advice for anybody else out there who is, you know, depending on one company. Building a mission critical app and like a file sharing service like Drive I know they have API's I'm not saying that Google is in any way right of doing this but you something that's like s3 compliance that just just but has a service level agreement that you signed like do that please do that that's that's all I'm asking you to do. The other thing I'm asking you to do is pay attention to NASA because they just announced the Artemis to mission crew that's going to be going to the moon so let's have a little drum roll please I don't I don't have a drama actually so We have commander read Weissman Victor Glover and Christina hammock or coach excuse me representing the US along with the Canadian Space Agency's Jeremy Hansen the four person crew will spend up to 21 days in an Orion capsule that will spend around 42 hours in high Earth orbit before touring the moon and then splashing down in the specific ocean specifically they'll be going around the mirror the moon so here's a who's who Christina hammock coach is known as a space is known in space land for already achieving the longest state in space by a female astronaut read Weissman is a Navy pilot who has also been a test pilot for the F 35 lightning to program. Victor Glover was part of the first operational Crew Dragon mission back in 2021 and Jeremy Hansen is a fighter pilot and one of four current Canadian astronauts so good on your Canada for representing Artemis to is set to launch in November 2024 and will represent the first time humans have flown to the moon since Apollo 17 in 1972 are you marking your calendar for Artemis to is I'm freaking psyched up there's the jokie part of me this was talked about the transformers or something but like this is exciting that there's actually like you know scientific money going into science and you know people going to space not because they just want to see the you know the part of the the curvature of the earth the actual research stuff it's not a bunch of like wacky billionaires being a bunch of can't say the words here but yeah it's nice to see actual human accomplishments that will probably benefit society and not you know I've been watching for all mankind on Apple on the Apple TV plus so it's all about moon stuff and and alt futures and stuff like that so I'm it's nice to see that there is in actual reality we're going back to the moon and I have little kids so I'm super psyched to be watching all these launches and and seeing those updates I've seen them through their eyes I think that was really really high quality video and imagery than we would probably have not gotten in a long time obviously got telescopes and things like that but like this is going to be something else. They're going to be using their phones I as they're going to be pushing out it's going to be like a space hardened like Samsung Galaxy s2 or something like that they have to use some real old it's going to be. What is that Apple satellite features like we're near or near them on a satellite is a count is like that. The one the one thing that makes me sad is that they won't bring the hassle blades back to the moon that makes me sad as a film photography guy but that's okay. But one thing that makes me happy is we got some stuff in the mail bag. Let's check it out. An episode 4486 this comes into us from Bernie. I was talking with Aaron Carson about the future of AI audio book narration. Bernie was thinking about what AI will do to certain industries and the field of audio books is one that I could see to have some potential jobs arise as AI is used more as the seasoned audio book narrators get older. They could strike a deal to punch up the AI when more emotion or context with more emotion or context and let the AI do the rest and discuss this becoming the norm. The upshot is that the library profile the library profile voice that will be licensed will continue to generate income long after the narrator gets older and loses the ability to perform audio books may not pay well but you'll receive a an income longer in the future. Yeah, I imagine the voice licensing game for AI will be will be quite strong going forward. There'll be that and then you'll have the person impersonators who can fill in when the season people are out and this is this is just a wild idea. I'm just thinking about like when we're talking about the moon stuff I'm like should I just put it in the chat GPT and like make funny point about transformers and moon. Like I could just on that. Yeah, we really just need the the is bots. Well, if you have any mother thoughts about audio books or about going back to the moon or Thunderbolt for docs that Microsoft is making to send us in at feedback at daily tech news show dot com we love to get your emails so please send them and the other thing we love is have an eyes act are on the show. I as thank you so much for joining us today where could people find where your great stuff online. Go to this old nerd.com there you'll see a show where I do occasionally maybe monthly sometimes weekly who knows what, but this time the latest episode is about installing a soundbar attached to a mountain television already. The show is all about having the most tech forward home in life as possible, and the projects are meant to be short. So check it out when you get a chance. Awesome. And thanks also to our brand new bosses, Chiara and Thomas who just started backing us on Patreon. Thank you Chiara. Thank you, Thomas, you rule. And remember, Chiara and Thomas as well as our other patrons stick around for our extended show Good Day Internet where we'll be talking about how Polaroid didn't develop a new film that might just make you blue. Sad or the color you'll have to stick around and find out. Remember, though, you can catch the show live Monday through Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern. Find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live. We'll be back tomorrow with Scott Johnson. This show is part of the frog pants network. Get more at frog pants dot com. Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.


1987, as the U.S. was in the middle of its vicious escalation of the war on drugs, Kurt Schmoke was elected mayor of Baltimore. Schmoke bravely spoke out alone, practically, against the rapidly escalating war and for serious consideration of alternatives to the punitive, prohibitionist drug policies that were sweeping across the country. He was reelected twice, serving as mayor for a total of 12 years, during which time he introduced syringe exchange and other harm reduction programs in Baltimore, fought for similar reforms in Maryland, joined the board of the Drug Policy Foundation and later Drug Policy Alliance, and continued to speak out boldly for both incremental and transformational reforms. To present this year's award, Kurt Schmoke Award for Achievement in the Field of Law, please welcome DPA's New Jersey State Director, Roseanne Scotty. It is my great pleasure to present this award to Senator Booker tonight. Senator Booker has been a long time friend of Drug Policy Alliance and a long time advocate of drug policy reform. Even at the beginning of his career, when a lot of people, a lot of elected officials tend to be more cautious, he was not. Senator Booker began his career in the great city of Newark, New Jersey, Newark in a house when he ran for city council. He went on to serve as mayor of Newark and for the last three years he has been our junior senator from New Jersey in Washington, D.C. He very quickly has emerged as a leader in Congress advocating for sentencing reform, harm reduction policies, an end to solitary confinement for juveniles, fair hiring practices for formerly incarcerated people, and recently he introduced legislation to legalize marijuana on the federal level and across the country. When Cory said that he was first announced that he was running for the Senate, I said to him, are you sure you want to go to Washington with all that ugliness, with all that craziness? And he said to me, you know, Roseanne, I am a prisoner of hope, and Cory Booker is someone who gives us hope for the future. He's someone who gives us inspiration to go on and to keep fighting that good fight. Cory couldn't be here tonight in Atlanta to accept that award because he's very busy in Washington, D.C. fighting that good fight, but he did take time to film an acceptance of this award and provide a message for all of us here at this conference, so please put your hands together for Senator Cory Booker. I am so sorry that I can't be there with you tonight. I want to thank everybody who's a part of the Drug Policy Alliance for giving me this honor, really named after somebody that I have respected since the days I was aspiring to be a mayor myself. Kirchmoke is somebody that I've relied on as a model, as a friend, and obviously when it comes to drug policy was a courageous trailblazer, so thank you for this honor. But if you give me the moment, it's actually I that want to honor you all. This organization from the time I was a city council person has been so powerful in shaping my policy beliefs and helping me to develop a deeper understanding about the way out as a guy who was living in Newark, New Jersey, to see how the war on drugs wasn't a war on drugs, it was a war on people, to see that there are clear policy ways to get out of this horrible trap. I just want to say to Ethan Natelman, who has been a hero to me personally, one of those people I met early in my life who was a friend, who was smart, insightful, and really mentored me on policy issues, I'm sorry you're retiring, I'm kind of angry at you.  Anyway, I want to say thank you to you Ethan, I want to say how excited I am about Maria, and of course I want to give a shout out to Rosie Ann Scottie, who's been a dear friend of mine as well for many years doing incredible work. I just want to let everybody know that that's the key word, work. We have a lot of work to do. The war on drugs or criminal justice system right now is a cancer on the soul of our country. And what is happening to so many communities is so against who we say we are, a nation of liberty and justice for all. We who are patriots who believe in these ideals, we have work to do. We still have a nation, as Brian Stevenson says, that treats you better if you're rich and guilty than poor and innocent, we have work to do. We are the nation, the land of the free and yet we have a quarter of all the nations, of all the planet earth's imprisoned people. Here in the United States, we have work to do when we see that our prisons are full of the most vulnerable people, the disabled, the mentally ill, the veterans that they're filled of people who are addicted and disproportionately poor people and people of color, we have work to do. And so I want to thank you for all that you all have done to move the debate, to enact policies, to advance the cause of justice, but we have a mountain still to climb. So thank you for this award. It really is something that should be shared by all of us because there are so many folks in that room right now that embody these ideals and these principles, but I can barely sit still when I know what's going on right now in this nation after the savage war on drugs has taken the American prison population increased at 500 percent, how our precious resources as a society have not been poured into schools or infrastructure, but has been poured into building more and more prisons to warehouse, more and more potential. When I walk around my own neighborhoods and neighborhood in Newark and see still how people are being preyed upon by a broken system, we have work to do. So thank you for this award. Let's embrace each other tonight. Let's comfort each other tonight. Let's celebrate ground gain, but I'm looking forward to rolling up my sleeves and continuing to fight the work because the United States of America that has ideals like equal justice under the law and liberty and justice for all. Our promise, our ideals are still not made real in the lives of millions of Americans. And so this work that we're doing must continue and must persist. And Ethan Nadelman, you may be retiring from your job, but you're not retiring from the movement. I'm so grateful for your work, but I'm keeping you in the game. And you'll be only a phone call away from me, I pray. God bless everybody. God bless America. Let's make our nation real. So thank you, Senator Booker, for setting up this next award so nicely.