naboo is down communication is down what's going on with that so yeah so send an envoy right right so send it away and then amidala amidala says oh no i'm not gonna find i'm not gonna prove my case i'm just gonna go back so she's dumb and she's a 16 year old girl that's elected to be queen of a nation which is also done 14 14 sorry 14 well it's how's she supposed to prove anything sitting on course on well how have she called them up ask the jedi to find out testify in the senate that they were trying again the other reason she decides to go back she does have first of all she has a plan because aja was you know told her they have an army and well i'm friends with a judge i may be able to work something out but also um again padna is all again i really like padna's character and we'll probably delve deeper into her as this they aware this is our progresses and we'll her more later but um always been a woman of like take charge action um and you know bravery all that stuff until the third moment her well i mean i'm actually disappointed by that in the third maybe that she wasn't more involved kind of a little too much of a yeah that's something i'll admit um um like again remember that when i tell like there's a detail she comes back onto the ship after you know rescuing anakin from naboo or whatever you want to call it um she sees the you know the message and she's in fearful of her people and then she's desperate to solve it nothing's getting done she has a way just to take back the feed and you know she wants to take out the visor takes out the visor so she can buy it for anything okay move the blockade shut down the droids or you know we have we have them hostage so she wants to do and she only uh takes action to do that when she it's a plan it's not dumb for doing that let's take action and she has a means of doing so that that is very stupid i think that she could then there was no reason to leave the planet i think the complaint was that she was dumb to waste time calling a vote of no confidence in the senate and the supreme chancellor which is going to make everything go slower as opposed to just agreeing that they send a ship which i assume takes less than a day in the star wars universe to go look at you know official republic ship to go look at the naboo and say oh look they're occupied by a joy army and then fly back that seemed like a pretty stupid thing for her to get involved with but who's the yeah but again she lost the she lost faith in the part right there she's like okay what if there's no commission uh commission you got to reconvene what you got to sort something else out what happens if this happens again if there's another roadblock um at least you know what do you mean palpatine or at least well she doesn't know palpatine's going to be supreme chancellor she doesn't even know he's nominated that's after that's a good point i'll give you that and also the as she says herself the supreme chancellor has been her biggest advocate i mean he's the one that also sent the jedi there so it seems like he's on her side wouldn't valorem be able to corroborate the statements hey there's a blockade going on where are those jedi that i sent on that secret mission i believe what armadal is saying because she made it so that in in court now we get them up and there's a communication he did undermine the senate's ascendant and then on top of that we don't how is it again that a blockade of trade is legal in republic terms so they're it's totally fine that they're just they're hovering over the planet we've already given up on that point but well we've already given up on that point but what's funny about that is that they don't think it's passed someone in the senate thinks that it's not possible that a blockade is gonna then proceed an invasion why would they not assume that isn't that exactly what precedes an invasion isn't that what a siege is about isn't that what a blockade is because the blockade's legal the invasion is not why is it legal that's not explained which is just a detail i'm sorry oh i'm sorry hold on a second i'm sorry that my my quest for information just comes down to minutia details about key plot points but this is a key plot point details though this is it but it is key key about it you know it's important to understand these things so that we can understand the larger scheme of things and and that's the thing that we keep coming to terms with is that it's like every point that stitch and iron make they're invalid because it's somehow part of a plan that has to do with palpatine or they're designed to be that way but even if we try to narrow the point down like the droids are impossible for you know they can't kill jedi unless they're basically and we can't admit that they're goofy even though everything every time that they die there's a joke every time that they're speaking to one of the jedi there's a joke yeah so i understand that but i'm just i'm just saying that it's frustrating to me on the points because it feels like there's no constant i want concession about things that don't make sense i don't want you to tell me that these details don't matter i don't debate because who were you to say that so she wanted for people to tell i'm sorry you're right when they don't agree with you look well again that's why we're here it's fine and you know it's it's it's fine this is not going to end the discussion on the prequels okay this is two people talking to two people sure this isn't the end no it's not it's not even the end yeah i know a lot of people thought it would be this was going to end the debate but you know and i know a lot of people want um are asking for anna to come in there's no way we'll be able to stock five uh people in here like this this it's not going to work we might uh she's uh anna that star wars kill she she knows her prequels um well she knows her stars we will perhaps organize another people debate in future and she can be on one of the teams it's just that obviously we can't just boot one of the participants that have her in or have her in as a 3v it's going to be chaos so to bring us back to um what we're just talking about if he had sent those uh jedi in secret he wouldn't be able to bring that to the senate i imagine that's an inference i don't know that he could use that as evidence and simultaneously even if he did bring it up he doesn't get an executive decision on i don't know declaring that there is an invasion you'd still have to prove it the the it seemed like as i said earlier seemed like newt is expecting ambassadors seemed like the only part that was secret was that the ambassadors were jedi and i don't know why that would suddenly mean and the question of is my planet under attack mean that they can't testify just because the supreme chancellor sent them there secretly um that would still not necessarily prove invasion though well no no wait testifying in court is considered evidence if it's a firsthand witness you mean you're saying the jedi could testify that there is an invasion happening on behalf of the jedi would testify we went we were the peacekeeping force of the galaxy that everyone is supposed to respect as being wise and not you know not deceitful and not attached to material possessions okay that everyone's supposed to respect the fucking jedi that's like the entire build up to their to the jedi order you tell me if they went to the senate and said the supreme chancellor sent us there and these guys tried to murder us they murdered our crew they destroyed our ship and then we went down the planet and we saw that they were capturing the city that would be a really big fucking deal and give a lot of sway in the senate but that never comes up it's never discussed it never happened that would still get that would still get below arm into trouble though because i did go into secret under his and then the senate would say him is undermining the senate we don't know the general the jedi are supposed to be impartial because none of this is explained as we talked about earlier i thought the entire point of the jedi was to settle disputes so how is him sending the jedi undermining the senate none of this is talked about in the there's no scene the movie where valorem says i wish you guys could testify but you can't because then i would get kicked out of office this is all speculation from the title crawl the assumption is that the republic are all dealing with this uh trade problem the blockade problem and they're getting caught up while the supreme chancellor whatever's decided if i let two jedi go over there they might be able to settle this easily calmly and it'll all be over that's probably why uh new gunray knows they're coming but the senate is unaware that that's happening because in in the opening before the jedi even land on the trade federation ship they talked to newt through you know the teleprompter essentially they call him and say the ambassadors for the supreme chancellor went aboard immediately right yeah not for the senate though so but no but so wait a minute so if the speculation versus this is all speculation but the speculation is that he can't have a jedi testify because he get in trouble that he sent them there but he sent them there to sell the dispute so if the dispute is suddenly settled that's gonna show that he sent the jedi there to settle it so the jedi were sent so the supreme chancellor has the authority to send of the jedi the senate would be against no rags rags they're saying they're saying that he doesn't and that's the problem and i'm saying none of this is in the mood well wait so if they if it worked send them then why did they if i don't know i don't well wait if it worked if they did sell the agreement the jedi wouldn't then come back and announce to the senate that they sold it it would just come across as oh i guess it got settled how great between you know naboo and the trade federation if they're in secret they that's probably that's probably what the jedi were going to do they were like what's the problem oh you should you guys should do this also we're gonna go now like they wouldn't have they wouldn't have been like we were the ones that did it they were there in secret this is so an official treaty it's just gonna be between the naboo and trade federation well no so the idea is if the blockade came to naboo there's clearly conflict there valorem is like damn this this senate is just arguing back and forth day in day i'm going to send the jedi in secret to settle it and for some reason that we don't know he doesn't have the authority to send the jedi well um maybe if the if the senate would be really useful if it was public to the senate if he announced it to the wait hang on so if he announced it he sent them the the the theory would go if he announced it to the senate they would vote on it the whole idea is they're caught up they're tangled red tape all kinds of stuff there's no nothing's getting done he sends them to hopefully solve the problem quickly and quietly but what so the advantage of having it done quickly and quietly as opposed to just having it be known that we sent negotiate like i've sent negotiators i imagine that has to be official and the the problem was it wouldn't it wasn't going through the senate so he did it quickly i know this is so is it established that the senate didn't wouldn't approve of negotiators it just all it's all it says is the they're tangled in endless debates so like i'm assuming the point of that statement is the whether like that would be one of the many possibilities that the senate are trying to deal with but there's no consensus so the jedi so the that would mean that the jedi agree with the supreme chancellor and allow these two jedi to go i assume so and yeah the because the jedi do think that they're kind of like the best dudes on carcin they'd be like yeah we'll solve it send two of our guys so all it says in the opening title crawl is that the congress of the republic endlessly debate this alarming chain of events so it doesn't say anything about the congress saying that supreme chancellor can't send jedi to wait a second i'm sorry there's no specifics i want to try and clarify a few things um so if the case was that they weren't supposed to go and they had to be sent in secret because the senate didn't approve it then why would they be announced as being sent by the supreme chancellor to the tread federation well i mean the trade federation will know they're coming there's no way about that is there one of the trade federation if they don't want to if they don't want to agree to what the jedi would say wouldn't they just threaten to expose this plot and i suppose they could this would this would be the perfect way this is the perfect plan for palpatine if the whole point is to get a vote of no confidence in the chancellor then he should just tell the trade federation to just call the senate and said the chancellor fucking sent undermined you and sent secret jedi and we should need to vote him out of office i think that's a possibility i'm going to that i don't know how to prove that here but here's the other thing counter to that valorem wait wait wait wait wait you ask how would he prove that because the jedi are sitting on his ship and they can just show a hologram of the jedi sitting on the ship at this very moment they're right there the security cameras i i'm at they have that they have poisonous gas that goes in the rooms i am assuming they should have security cameras somewhere they also have holograms that can security cameras that holograms that they talk to each other okay but hold on a second because the other point is that valorem could call in and say hey guys while you were calling for me as a with a vote of no confidence i sent these jedi because we were deadlocked let's hear from them let's hear what really happened yeah this is the last ditch effort or the whole point the whole thing that sparked this discussion was why didn't the jedi testify to the senate okay and the answer that was given was well because maybe maybe the speculation is that senate the supreme chancellor wasn't supposed to send them but that doesn't work because then palpatine would just expose that and getting the movie and there would be his vote of no confidence and we could skip the rest of the movie so we still don't know why the jedi didn't testify to the senate yeah i mean if there's any any counters i don't really see how that voids the whole movie wouldn't the jedi have to still make it back to co-resents no i'm saying it voids the whole movie in terms of palpatine's plan is already accomplished if all he has to do is tell the trade federation to tell the senate that they secretly send jedi and that's apparently wrong or illegal or whatever it doesn't get the trade federation what they want though which is why yeah but palpatine isn't why does palpatine give a shit about that they have a trade federation seem to be a means to an end to palpatine yeah it's just trying to say that like if the ultimate goal is of no confidence he's got the opportunity right there to expose the valorum has secretly subverted the senate or assuming this is the reason because none of this is all speculation none of this is explaining the movie why the jedi don't test i was definitely an inference i'm only going from what i think that i was not gonna give you that you can't you can't not give me that you don't inferences i'm saying i don't think it's fair to infer that just because they're sent in secret suddenly means that if the supreme chancellor were to ask the jedi to testify that suddenly that would mean that he's going to no not that part i'm saying that the republic didn't send approve the jedi because they're tangled in debates like that that would be the inference but that's but that's part of the promise that we never they never explain how their public and the jedi council function hey well i got a counter i got a counter any of this stuff i got a counter that wouldn't give palpatine a simple though sure it would his planet is being invaded by the trade federation and the supreme the supreme chancellor tried to sweep it all under the rug oh for shame but like if he if he just has to okay just just record the jedi resolve the you just do what they say um then just give me the evidence i'm not i'm not i'm not saying i'm not saying that he would i'm saying he would tell the trade federation to just record the jedi that they showed up i'm not saying he would tell them to do what the jedi say they would record that still does give uh i've seen the sympathy vote though sure it does because you get yeah sure because the trade no because the trade federation haven't done anything wrong what do you mean the trade federation they did they tried to they they tried to kill the jedi but they tried to kill the jedi with poison that's what sparks well wait a minute they killed the whole pot plays out the same way hold on a second hold on a second when the supreme chancellor is voted no confidence and palpatine replaces him the senate still doesn't know the planet's been invaded yeah as as far as i'm aware i think all the information that they're operating on at that point is that there is a blockade yeah i don't think the senate know that the invasion took place until the end of the movie right yeah because they don't know what happened it's over yeah because we see palpatine on naboo with his guards and everything so next point yeah if you want to move on i get i get chat is so high-strung it's uh i'm so sorry chat i'm so sorry okay well okay so i guess next next point minor point after all these large points uh why do they have rooms that shoot toxic gas into them but they don't have cameras i can see if the people are dead or not i can hear you i'm sorry you cut out again i'm sorry can you even out yeah um well the gases will pick they can't see through the gas that seems to be their problem all right let's pretend let's pretend that they do have uh i mean okay but again it doesn't change the fact that they had the the breathers on who don't see them use the breathe this is i mean they couldn't have used them because that's to mention later it shows them holding their breath i don't think they could have just like what's to say that doesn't like disrupt their nerves they breathe it in then could knock them out instantly and just like cut their body or whatever no i think no no no my argument is why hold them go on sorry no no i'm not my argument isn't how they survived the room they could use the rebreather to hold their breath or whatever i'm not arguing that my argument is if they have the technology to shoot poison gas in a room you would also think they'd have the technology that has a fucking camera in the room so they could see if they're dead or not instead of just waiting for 20 seconds and then open the doors like complete morons i mean to add to that point i'm curious to you wouldn't you just leave them for like an hour just to be sure i don't know they're trying to why don't they just bypass the bypass the compressors yeah why don't they just bypass compress good point good point um i mean i suppose they cut their way out eventually but you know like the again the vice president used to dealing with Jedi knights he's dealing with the situation the way he'd deal with any like intruder he what he's doing he blows up the ship um and the Jedi out he doesn't know the Jedi can sense that the Jedi are already out there ready and then they see the gas and then they're prepping themselves and by the time the droids get there we don't know it's a bit of a time job we don't don't know if that's like minutes minutes whatever um he's like okay they must be dead anything else i want to shoot them i think all you've said is fair i just want to clarify with chat you guys got to chill out i'm seeing a lot of prequel beneficial arguments here calling it a nitpick it's like this would have killed the protagonists you cannot call this a nitpick okay like you need to chill out you know you know calm down just take it easy we're all having discussion every point that sitch and glib bring up are not automatically retarded okay just give him a shot just think him through give him a shot let's always say it again all of that hate all of that hate that you had for rags is avatar take just put that on me i will be the the sacrificial land here that's perfectly fine give me your hate because i'm i don't i don't dislike either rick or anomaly i don't dislike chat i'm sorry if we got heated there for a second i just want everybody to know this is a reasonable conversation let's continue but yeah my point one of my point is that um it's not that device because i've seen plinkett makes his argument that's bullshit um it's not the device where he's incompetent is that he is unprepared he doesn't know who's what he's dealing with yet um when you go when he gets uh down on when the he's talked to the droid on the surface of naboo by the way he actually says like verbatim is just caution these jedi are not to be underestimated because guess what he made that fucking mistake on the ship didn't he right like this yeah why do they know i think it's in i think it's in revenge of the sith you see that the ships have like cameras they even look like they have heat sensor cameras i think even in in phantom menace you see there's a there's one shot where you see like the back of droid it goes in a hallway so they have cameras somewhere in this fucking ship so i my question is why would they not put it in the murder room you think that'd be the first place you'd put the camera the middle yeah they all they're all made of room stitch they're all okay there you every room in the ship just you could put poisonous gas in it and they don't have any of the important conference rooms and there's no cameras allowed that's that would be the perfect place for cameras we mean they want to monitor the meeting room but someone could like i don't know there's just like what that i mean to say unexpectedly i'm like what like that there's like that is a conference room they weren't meant to be having like a meeting secret so to speak who's to say who else to trade federation me with well i can't why would they have poison yeah but you're saying you're saying well you know it's they don't have cameras in there because it's just a meeting room it's like well okay well they also have the capacity to fucking poison the rooms but i don't know it seems to me that was a semi serious argument i wasn't i'm not gonna i'm at healer i'm saying okay okay you can move on that's fine yeah okay let's move on to the greatest the greatest piece of writing in this story jar jar thinks and how does not exist i love jar i love missing jar that's kind of far ahead though okay it's been three hours to get past the cross hey look you guys get to do whatever you want to do it's there's no guarantee you get through all the prequels yeah i don't know what the choreography because it's kind of hard to discuss without seeing it so maybe you can skip that actually i'm gonna be right back sorry progress let's get it sure sure i think i think it's um mostly focused on writing instead of um technical instead of directing and editing yeah i just want to point out that that's an an entire other issue that has to do with why it's good or bad i'll just point out that in the first action scene when obi one jumps down from the ceiling it makes no sense because he's in a room behind a bulkhead and there's doesn't physically possible for him to jump down from anywhere but we're coming out of shaft in the wall no they're not the door opens and they're just standing there what what's he talking about in the in the first one the poison gas room doors open and the jedi are standing there and they start shooting at them and then it cuts to a reverse angle and you see obi one's feet drop in from the ceiling and you're like where the fuck is he jumping from there's some clear errors there especially because see what we got here i have i took screenshots i can put in the chat oh no i i believe you i'll try and pull it up so she check and see no just to just to give a visual indication of what i'm talking about that's anyway is there anything else uh sitch that uh yeah okay let me move on to something because i think that they're okay yeah yeah before we get to jar jar uh so why don't the jedi try to use force powers on the droid because like push them over throw them in the walls anything like that sort of just like drop in from the top of the scene that is odd yeah it's very weird choreography why don't jedi use gadgets more than lightsabers we're not even gadget why can't they just use force powers on the droid it goes what's what's the restrictions why doesn't i mean you can do whatever you want right well you have to assume that the force powers take power and concentration and they can only do it so much and so there's a cost-benefit analysis at a certain point it's not gonna be feasible for them to get out of the situation that way i mean you can't you everything we're talking about all these questions you're talking about are you're speculating on like well exactly how much does this you know how much power does this take how does this work how does that the technical details of all this stuff and you can't you can't i mean there's no way for the movie to stop and explain you know but one thing i will say with george lucas is that every time i've ever heard him get asked a question like that well why did this happen that way he always every single time has had a really detailed answer right on the tip of his tongue and it's just that you can't stop a movie to explain all that step when you're creating a whole world like this where everything is supposed to be unfamiliar and what he said a thousand times in interviews is that his philosophy about explaining exposition on how and why things work is that he always based it on how we felt as a student when he saw seven samurai for the first time and he saw carousel films and japanese films and he said the experience of going into you know at that point and he didn't know much about japanese culture and watching a movie that's all about like samurai ethos and the point was that he didn't understand any of the technical details of the culture or the how or the why but he was able to follow the emotional story of the people and that you don't need to understand exactly well you know how does samurai feel about this would a samurai use a sword in that situation or would a samurai use their hands you can't have those kinds of debates instantly because you can't ever tell a movie about an unfamiliar culture if you're expected to stop and explain every single thing you have to assume that the storyteller has a logic in their head and that you're given enough to follow you know and you just there there would be no movie if you stop and explain well how does this work how does that work you have to just get the pieces that you need and that's something that he said he's very consciously trying to do in these movies is create the experience of going to an alien culture which like for him being at a californian teenager being dropped into a japanese movie and not understanding the culture that was his way of approaching science fiction was the okay well we're from this galaxy and we're being dropped into that galaxy and you're not going to understand but you're going to understand enough and then i think what we just spent like three hours doing is trying to figure out well like you know uh who do they pay taxes to does it what portion of the taxes go to this to that and you just you just can't do that it's not a valid way to to tell a story if you want the story to actually be in an alien environment and that's why i'm going quick it's like an endless rabbit hole of just where why isn't there can't why is the camera on the left wall and not on the right wall you can't it's going it's just it's just not a you know you could see those those things but it's it's an endless thing and nitpicking well i don't know how their cameras work maybe their cameras can't see through that type of gas maybe the the gas is like a fog maybe the i don't i don't know do they have infrared cameras do they have night vision cameras you you have no white yeah if those things and you can't possibly do a movie where you stop and explain all those things is that true so it is well first of all it's very interesting that what you said about his interpretation of film because i didn't know that and it actually makes the movies make a lot more sense and i mean i think he's completely fucking wrong about about his theory behind this i mean it's usually why most people don't or have a problem viewing movies from other cultures and why they never do as well in other markets is because there's a lot of cultural things that people don't understand so for i completely just i mean that's interesting i think you're i think that is why he does it but i think it's the wrong tank but in terms of the thing though is a i'll let you finish just in a second but just the thing is that he does under he went to go see a curacao a movie when he was an american teenager and he didn't understand all the details but he understood the emotional story that's the point right and that's right and i'm saying that all the details create well when you're these movies as adults when you watch these movies and you start to try to pull it apart the point is that when if you're a six-year-old and you watch this movie you just assume well well there's got to be a reason that they're that the gas works like that and that it's you're overthinking it you have to go to it with it well i don't want to say overthinking because there is a logic behind it but the point is that you have to go with the expectation that you're not going to have everything explained to you i mean i don't know i just want to say every sequel argument i've ever heard about one it sounds like it sounds like this is you like this is a movie about space wizards for children because you said six and i think it's a moral well but what you're saying is because we came here to say if it was good writing not if it was good for kids at six the contention easily seems to be between the two groups the one side is arguing that the details you're asking for aren't needed for the story while you are arguing that they are that's that's the only contention right because one second what stitch is arguing is that those details that george did not necessarily see in the end in his first viewing of that movie are what made the bigger things that he saw relevant or good and but the framework is the one kurosawa is making that movie for a japanese audience he's not going to stop and explain those things but the framework is still there it does still exist and that's what i was saying with lucas you know things like um a parsec being a measure of distance not a measure of speed and everybody thinks that's a mistake you can hear lucas there's an interview he did way back like 20 years ago where somebody asked that to him and immediately on the tip of his tongue he had an explanation of yeah i know that a parsec is distance and he had a whole exponent you know every time i've ever heard him ask a question he's got a really detailed answer and so my point is like there's that there is not okay wait a minute i'm not arguing that george lucas doesn't have some weird answer for everything the argument is whether the movies are well written and if you're watching a movie and you keep asking yourself questions about why that why things are happening it doesn't matter if the director of the writer knows the answer if i the audience member doesn't know and the movie doesn't tell me that's all that matters right but he doesn't there's he's making choices about what he wants you to know well he's making bad choices because with quite again with the the four the reason i ask about the why can't they use the force on the joy to cuss is because obi-wan and quaggan jinn are like two seconds away or a minute away from being able to cut into the room with the with new gunray and the bad guy and end the entire conflict of the movie they're right there but they don't they run away because the joy to cuss are there so i think my i think asking well why can't they do this to stop the joy to cuss is a completely fair question because there's so much is going on right now they're right they're right at the throne room entrance with the bad guy yeah but they're there's endless droids that could keep coming at some point they realize they're not going to be able to force push away all the droids you know he's coming to the endless droids information was the two droidicas yeah and they literally show them force pushing a normal droid down and it just dies like just the just forward they're not throwing to the wall they just push it down it goes um there's another argument that can be made that is uh the joy to cuss have uh you know stronger and more frequent cannons and the jedi have to be you know like you said like you know that you want to more threatening droid you've got it they have to be have to have their reflexes like working at a higher frequency whatever um but droids don't get tired they're just shooting and shooting and shooting they came against the wall then they're just gonna be um they're gonna you know some's gonna have to give unless they get out of there or unless they kill the droids it's always they couldn't kill the droids not getting shot so they fled no but i'm asking why couldn't they use the force to to knock the droids away or knock them in the wall to do anything to answer that question the point is that in the scene what's what's shown in the scene is that the jedi made a cost-benefit analysis and they decided that they had to run away okay so you have to have to for whatever the extent of the jedi's power is they decided at that moment that their best option was to run away you you're asking like how and why and we don't have like a measurement of how much power they have or what they can and can't do right isn't that a problem with the writing i'm sorry to interrupt but is that no could you possibly explain no it's not because how could you possibly explain all of the jedi have like you know whatever 10 000 watts of power and a force push takes 5000 watts you can't you can't how how would you explain the whole that type of stuff in the movie it you just literally never seen of him trying to force push the droid and it doesn't work for some reason that's all you're literally looking at they're too heavy i can't concentrate yeah like this isn't really different by the way that's what i want i really i know people think i'm interrupting but it's because i i want to finish i want to get my point out okay the the issue that we're having here is that if if what you're saying about wattage and stuff is too detailed are you sure that what you're saying about a jedi's powers is in the movie the the the stipulation that you made about that it requires this amount of energy if that's not stipulated in the movie how can you claim it my point is that they realized that running away was their best option we don't know the details of why what you're asking for is for the movie at that point to give some sort of line where the jedi say to each other like oh we can't do this we don't have enough power the jedi already know that that line would be for the benefit of the audience and that's bad writing that's the character standing there explaining to each other oh this is the reason that the plot has to go this way right now so if you watch the movie how does it no characters explaining to each other things that they already know for the benefit of the audience is bad writing in that situation because characters saying things that they have no reason to say except to tell the audience something you don't think is forming the audience is an important part of good writing there should be a reason that the characters within the story have a reason to say that not not just because we're gonna stop and talk to the crowd i don't think that's that's different talking directly to the audience is different from two characters giving each other information you can have naturalistic versions but they're not giving each other information because they're not giving each other information because they already know for the reason for what they're doing the audience is the one that doesn't know okay here's one quigan hold off these jordicas while i'm opening the door but master there's too many of them we must leave right that's that's really shitty they're just they already know that make you feel better let me ask you this question do you think the jedi are idiots in this movie well are they supposed i want i don't know i don't know because whenever i assume whatever reason for what they're doing whenever i make these points i can't figure out if the jedi are intelligent or not because most people will will make the contention at some point in my arguments about the prequels that the jedi are designed to be incompetent so you tell me well but hold on you understand you understand that if your argument is we have to assume that the jedis are smart and competent and just go along with everything you're doing you can literally say that about any character in any movie that you criticize doing something that doesn't make sense you can say well we have to assume that they're smart and know what they're doing but why do you think that that doesn't make sense you're basing it doesn't make sense on just i'm not saying it doesn't make sense i'm saying it's lazy writing not to explain what the fuck going on with characters doing things that don't make sense to the audience didn't one of you guys make the argument show don't tell before yes all right so come isn't that showing that the jedi just can't go up against jordicas they've got force fields or shield generated which i would presume is a force field and i mean just this is a half us argument here but don't force fields interact well i don't know but that's a that's a good no i'm just saying like i'll just that's that's a you could why didn't george could literally establish that you have you see he tries to push it and he can't because for some reason the force doesn't go through the shields or whatever just you could show that you don't even have to say any dialogue just show if you need to i never i never used the force against i mean great uh guess chat can prove me wrong if i'm i missed the detail but you know jedi never used the force against the jordica shield it's not just in the next minutes at that point i think it's on that alone we can assume that's just by their actions you can infer a lot from characters action doesn't have a conductor so i would say that we would assume they could use it on the jordicas but we never see it so they're the facts right that's all we got and i i do want to point out that the force field stopping the force argument doesn't work because there is a no that was that wasn't a real log it i was it that was just me okay all right all right i got you yeah i was just like that was just sort of like dressing for it like you get obi one being like terrified of him almost he's like god's those things and then they're like ah run away but as an audience i would i would be like can you know if you guys not take him out in fact when i was rewatching them ahead for this debate i was immediately like obi one throw your lightsaber as they're rolling towards you you'll get him easy do it do the thing throw the lightsaber in fact walk up to him run up to him even because until they fully load they're harmless especially against the jedi oh lightsaber so i mean jarja takes one out before he's generated a shield right yeah you think well i can't the jedi they say it's uh quagon says it's a standoff and then they force speed away i mean like the the droid car at the same time won't roll right up to the jedi get killed he stopped they stopped this minimum oh yeah for sure but use jedi speed to get right up to him and then slash him well before they start shooting in their unfolding you would just force crush him or whatever that you could do that lightsaber slash them or a million things you could do because the bad guys right there and you need to kill him or capture him anyone who's played star wars battlefront was he was played as a droid oh yeah those things kicked ass in battlefront so okay because the question is like let's look at the let's go back to sequels everyone say it's sequels you ask yourself you say the hold on maneuvers so stupid because you ask yourself why why don't they always do that and i don't think it's fair to say well we have to assume without the movie telling us that there's some magical reason why it only work for a hold though at that one time and it never works again hang on i just i just uh well but there isn't a magical homework in the same situation and they do something different well no because i was about to ask how come we never see anyone ever use the droid cup personal shields for other droids or just on people but i because that would be like the most powerful thing in star wars that have a little personal shield that just blocks lasers automatically agreed agreed but um what was gonna say uh what more to rick's point uh sorry to cut you off there good um what was the thing you said about uh characters saying stuff that they already know just to explain to the audience is like bad writing if the audience doesn't have context for what you're okay you need to tell them something yeah look i i agree you don't want the characters to just go okay let me finish i've got a point here um everyone does say uh your master destroyers and they get ready to block the bolts then they seal this to see the shield generators and then everyone's like they have shield generators like that's a shock to him someone's like yep okay stand up thanks just ain't working let's go you could say that they weren't unprepared for the shield generator it is interesting that they that that obi one knows what they are as they're rolling towards them but he's and then he says they have shield generators that's interesting oh like that's a new feature yeah look they have a new feature and we don't know what it is so we better run away oh great i mean again we'll have to assume but maybe those little details and you know we don't know it's ambiguous i think um yeah because how many times are you playing a video game with friends and you say something that everyone knows to accent the point or something like that um it's it's i think it's not ambiguous there's not yeah i don't know what to say what he says is that it's a standoff so you're assuming that for whatever reason the droid they're not able to defeat the droids right he says it's a standoff with it so without going into the details of how the droids work or how the force powers work against it he says it's a standoff which is the information that's pertinent you know for you to have a problem there you have to assume that they have the ability to destroy the droids or to stop the droids and then just chose to run for no reason and that's not what you're told you're trying to understand the audience understands to some degree what the Jedi's powers are and we should think well why can't they use x yz powers on the droid it goes the movie doesn't tell us i mean it's really simple so i mean you i you could make the personal choice to say well i'm going to assume that the characters are all intelligent and the writing is all intelligent and therefore there must be some very complicated answer that just they couldn't fit in the movie but i'm not gonna assume that and i'm gonna say well it's probably just lazy writing and they don't really care they just need the characters to leave the scene all right all right let me ask you let me uh for that point all right so if we don't know what the force can and cannot do based on how they based on what is and is not explained as opposed to what characters are doing and what they aren't doing that doesn't uh to be Anakin why doesn't Obi-Wan just use force grip and just put him in the lava just for he can hold things with the force and move them Jedi power yeah because we see Darth Maul push Obi-Wan into the pit with the force so that's a milder version of what i'm trying to say though um you can't do that but as opposed to um like like actually picking someone up and just i mean duke did that actually sure like yeah so what was it i'm i lost what was the question that was asked or was it i'm just saying like like you're saying that it's left for the audience it's not it's bad writing because the audience is left to assume what the Jedi can and cannot do and that makes them look incompetent more or less that's that's your point right yes okay i'm saying that that applies to more than that can apply to the ot as well um i mean oh no i mean well it applies let's put it let's put a pin in that all right okay um yeah i won't i won't go there um terms of what the Jedi can and cannot do see some Jedi more powerful Jedi do more power things of the force right some was a Jedi master and Obi-Wan was around the same in as him at that sorry did i cut out no no you're good did i cut out am i still here sorry because i'm on my black screen um you see like we know duke is powerful we know we can like you know it's not did you did you say like nah it's bullshit when for example duke picked up a Jedi and you know tossed for me for example well i was wondering how again part of the problem is that the whole way force interacts during lightsaber fights never really explained so it's always a question of how come only sometimes duke can block someone with a lightsaber then use the force you know on someone else like how come they're not always doing that they should always be using the force and lightsaber simultaneously that's never explained or shown what's the deal with that force jump when applicable i'm pretty sure that darkmore used force push when he saw the opening to push kenobi off the edge he uh had kenobi like he uses lightsaber to sort of i remember this incorrectly but harry kenobi a little bit and he used the force push to put him off the edge it wasn't completely like off god but he had a like a small opening to you right but so but is that that's something he's to be established if like oh you can only use the force on other force users when you catch him off guard or you have to do something specific like specific to do it because as you talked about in the duke fire i think it's in revenge of the sith in the beginning of the movie he's fighting both obi-wan and anakin at the same time and he just like force pushes obi-wan away and like like why how come he can just do that how come he didn't do that before and then how come afterwards he didn't just use the force to grab anakin before he gets his hands chopped yeah and i think he just found an opening so he found the opening force uh force kicked anakin and gripped obi-wan and then passed him and then anakin ranches no but that's my question what is the what is the mechanics of the force opening which never explained to the audience how that works and i'll be a very long explanation if you have to justify every little thing or when you can okay well it always comes back when are you supposed to sit there and explain every okay well they need a 0.5 second opening and not a 0.3 second opening to all of the mechanics of how every little bit of telepathy and mental concentration works and the difference between each different type of jedi and each of their different power levels it's completely nonsense to expect the movie to explain all that in its own way have you never seen jojo or uh my hero academia or dragon ball z or well or hunter x hunter x hunter all these all these are battle mangas three movies how about an 80s action montage yeah all these are battle mangas that are explicitly about fighting and the whole thing is here are the rules of the fighting so that you understand the tension in the fight and i'm saying you know i don't understand the tensions in the fight if i'm constantly saying well how come obi-wan doesn't use the force here and how come do who's in now use the force here i'm not saying they have to go into like an hour long explanation of it but you just got to give me something to work with so i understand the rules of the fight okay here's my argument that sir all right first off comparing the three movies to uh again an anime series and an anime manga is completely unfair i'm not saying they have to go in and more more applicable in terms of in terms of length in terms of how much time they have for exposition but also in terms of genre and the type of movie and the type of storytelling it's not lucas isn't telling this like a manga it's a completely different it's not about the fighting it's not about the can we talk about can we explain why the rules of the fight that's all i'm saying you need to understand the rules of the fight and say my second point is how the jedi fight and when they choose two and two not use force powers i think is um the the the the choreography and the subtleties in like openings and stuff is what um forms the audience when it's okay for a jedi to use the force power i think it's relied on the audience's observation of the itself rather than give it lots of bad choreography in the movie so i don't know if that's intentional or or unintentional okay well okay so perfect example the details spins around the cutoff anakin's hand he stands there for a full second and doesn't just kill dooku now is he using a force power the stun anakin or is this just bad choreography he's talking about uh yeah he's talking about when he gets his arm cut off correct yes okay um let's say one more time what's your argument no i'm saying in terms of the problem with saying well there's subtlety in the choreography is i'm saying i don't know what's bad choreography or simply because they're you know he's you know there's old people fighting and they're not going to have like the most you know the best motion range of motion here so in my example is that in attack of the clones when anakin's fighting count dooku they engage their kind of walk sabers for a second and then count dooku does a full 360 spin and the entire time his back is faced anakin anakin just stands there then count dooku comes around and goes to slash him instead of anakin force pushing or trying to block or trying to attack count dooku he literally just throws his arms out making an easy target for count dooku to cut his arm off so i don't know if this is just bad choreography or if this is a force ability should we i i tell you far away from episode one at this point uh yes we have no i because i didn't even get a chance to make my oh no i'm saying we should i'm just saying we have yeah i agree we should okay fun but um as far as giving people enough information about fighting and stuff you have the ability to teach uh padawans in this story that's what a lot of this story is about so wouldn't you just place little breadcrumbs that would give us power crawl information and understand what the limits of people's powers are showing us and demonstrating to us what the physical actions are explanations of how the force works training with a droid or whatever you know like as we've seen in that little scene where they're just hitting the all the kids are in the with lightsabers and they're hitting stuff all of those opportunities you could give information that would then give us stakes in future fights to let us know what level of lightsaber power this guy's using why we do this this way teaching about the jedi and information as it flows through the story is good writing all right um well i mean it's kind of separate from what's going on in terms of the story like a lot of the training is in mind you see glimpses of it um that's um look i have two points to make all right but firstly like the the intricacies to how jedi fight mechanics work something i think you'd find in a novel more than what's up and i'm not using novels that exist for the uh we're not talking about the novels here i'm talking about the films obviously saying those kinds of details that you're looking for is something you would find in the some things that i personally wasn't too clear about like for let me give you an example um like why for example uh i don't know if you noticed that um in revenge of the sears as opposed to the tag of the cones uh three p.o has one with uh padme and r2 is now with anakin you know that's the kind of swap choice just give me a yes or no answer that was a question okay okay okay just i'm just trying to outline to you like what um the details that you'd find in books as opposed to the movie if they're not directly applicable to the plot what's going on like the the intricacies of jedi fighting when it's a caddy's force or whatever a midfight and i imagine the fights in the novels they should would be vibrated detail like describing uh specific moves and just train of thought which you can't obviously but train film this is like a voice over while they're not speaking um like just just in human me on this one point i'm not trying to take it off balance but it's a little detail of ppo going with padme from revenge of the sith from attack of the coins for revenge of the sith and r2 going from padme and anakin in revenge uh from attack of the you notice that they swapped droids across your mind yes or no just give me yeah i i not only i not only noticed that but i was also wondering why they stole 3 p o from the larges and that never gets brought up okay that that's that's the separate thing i mean that that i actually have to do it have an issue with like yeah he is in a sense he is anakin's droid he did build him and the reason why they have but the reason why they have swapped detail as to why they have swapped places not that it's directly applicable to the plot whatsoever the reason why they have detail why they have swapped droids is because they were a wedding gift from anakin to padme actually wedding gifts from each other which one of my followers actually pointed out to me on my discord as a book detail that's something you would find in the books it's not explicitly mentioned um particularly to the audience like oh do you like my wedding gift darling yes thank you honey it was it was lovely i'm so glad you gave it to me you know that's it's not it's not directly applicable to what's going on why wouldn't that be why wouldn't there be a nice little detail to prove that they love each other and care about it's a nice little detail but i'm not mad that it wasn't in the movies but i find it interesting that it's it's cool awesome it's cool in the book but it's not good in the movie but the movie is the primary means of presenting the star wars story so of course mine also you're trying to my point point sorry guys like well i'm saying that has a much smaller implication than the fights you know why the droid they swapped is a very minor implication according to all the Jedi fights in the movie but the point he's making is the point that i think he's making that's good is that this is an endless thing that it's basically what we've been doing this whole time is that you can always say well why wasn't this in the movie or why wasn't that in the movie and you could just ask that question about anything and it's a it's a stylistic choice but it's also a choice about what's necessary and you know when you watch him when you watch him press strikes back and Darth Vader is using the force to throw things at Luke and Luke doesn't use the force to throw things at Vader you know do you need a training sequence to sit there and explain like oh you have to be a level eight force user before you can throw things with a lightsaber or you know you don't you don't know how to understand that okay Vader has power the Luke doesn't have how complicated is that to understand Vader has a power there Luke doesn't that's a terrible example to establish that Luke is completely new to force powers we've barely seen him use the force whatsoever and Vader is a master that's what the scene that's all set up that way so when Vader is using force powers to throw shit at Luke and he's completely overwhelmed it makes perfect sense of what's been established in the story at this point right it's established that some people have powers that other people don't so when you're asking why does this person do that or why doesn't that person do this because different Jedi have different powers in different situations that's it you can't have a complete chart of okay it's it's just it's an endless thing no but except it's the opposite because as I said the entire establishment of Luke and Empire Strikes Back is that he has very limited force powers I think all we see him do in that movie is he grabs the lightsaber when he's upside down and and oh yeah and then he's training with Yoda and you see he's having lots of problems you specifically see him having all these problems luring the force so it's the exact opposite it's completely set up why Luke is doing poorly against Darth Vader he does use force jump to escape this all the carbonite all right so anyway back to the second one for the second making progress let's uh let's go to the let's let's find a broad point a bigger one you know a nice big new one is Jar Jar Beaks good writing summarized if you yeah yeah go yes and I'll go to that um but just to summarize my point is like these little intricacies you're looking for these extra just extra layer of depth for things that aren't directly applicable to the plot is like I wouldn't expect that the film to stop and explain that to me if it's directly applicable to the plot yes absolutely sure absolutely the film needs to do that you know to to get a rundown of when and when it's cool to use a force character in combat that's that's that's gonna take a lot of time to explain and none of it was ever directly applicable to the prequel so point being that these details are looking for is something you would find in a book if it's the people with a plot you can prove that to me great we'll discuss it but if it's going to be about no it's about character development it's about context it's about giving rules to the universe it's about world building and all those things develop the plot and in a movie I just want to say and I just want to say and we can move on from this point when I watched the prequels again and I came up with all my lists of points I'm literally just looking at it through the same critical lens that I looked through the star wars sequels and made my videos about the star wars sequels and in that context if anyone in the star wars if any star wars sequel defender says well you're just nitpicking well they don't have time to establish this all these arguments would suddenly not be applicable to star wars sequels so I don't understand why they're magically fine with the star wars prequels just because it's like them because they're it's executed completely differently in the sequels but we I think we're not supposed to get into talking about the sequels right but if that blossoms into something larger about the technicals of it that's not another point for the prequels either that's the problem when we have to stick to writing because it makes it so that we can focus on actual points and logic that's in the story not excuses on why it's not important to the audience or whatever this is about what constitutes good writing that's what I came for I want to hear some more explanations as to how it's good writing and I think that's such as bringing up a really good point because he's saying if you can if we can't levy these criticisms at the prequels then we can't levy them at the sequels either then maybe why does it matter what the holder maneuver does what's because it's not it's not a comparable situation I understand I understand that you're saying it's not a good situation but I want to know why I want to know I want to know why that doesn't why I want to know why they're watching the Jedi fight themselves while fighting in their element the original point that this all sparked from was me simply asking how come they can't use force on the droid because when they're about to destroy or capture new gunray that's very important to the plot okay and that's why I said it's very important to establish what the rules is of this universe and what the rules of the forces we never get that establishment and it's the same thing with the hold on maneuver because then you say well wait a minute why didn't they always do the hold on maneuver what are the rules like starship fighting in star wars these are important things do you want to get into the hold on maneuver no I'm not saying it's good I'm not saying it it's about it's about consistency and let's move on I heavily disagree but let's move on okay yeah what the greater disagreement if you want to talk about jarger I don't know I don't I don't have much to talk about jarger so if Cliff wants to rag on how awful jarger is well I mean if we're okay you love yeah this is but this is why I feel like I'm not really having a real rational conversation about these movies I just think that I'm talking to two fanboys right now it's really frustrating tell me how I feel like I'm talking to two haters all right I know it's weird because I love so so let me let me understand why it's good to have a beauty character like jarger in a story about trade disputes and with very serious details about padawans and masters dying and all that in this saga why do we want these two tones to be clashing with each other every other scene how is that good writing do you want an answer for that yeah I want an answer because I feel like you're asking these questions and then I gave you an answer and then you're saying well you know he's not saying that I'm right so that means he's not answering my question then we go in a circle and rephrase the question all right maybe I don't want an answer I'll just just continue you don't want to answer you want to tell you that I'm great fine fine if you if you're going to take it as a bad faith argument then just continue okay oh I mean I'm asking a question was that you wanted an answer yeah I mean we ask like you know what's the what's the stakes in episode one and then we answer it and then we go back around to the question again I mean if you want to answer to this question I'll give you my answer but you're just going to you know I'm just going to debate you no you're just gonna like now you're making a shot is an argument you're trying to move the goal give you an answer and you just don't accept it I agree with I'll give you I'll give you an answer and so how so jar jar so we're just going to say that jarger is good writing based on which argument again the answer to question he asked about the conflicting tones why is the character like charge are good in a movie like that's right that's the question yeah it's it's very deliberate style let's take choice that Lucas has talked about a lot before episode one ever came out Lucas said that a lot of fans are going to hate episode one because he said it's for kids he said it's like a binging movie is what he compared it to the logic for doing that is everything in episode one works on two levels that's why it's called the phantom minutes because on the surface you have it's a fun movie it's an adventure movie the bad guys are kind of silly it's a little silly and goofy it's a the tone is for kids 12 year olds maybe younger and then the idea was to to show that what's happening with Palpatine is happening underneath the surface so you know when you say that the bad guys in episode one are in effective I mean the actual titular bad guy of the movie the phantom minutes Palpatine gets everything that he wants he's completely effective everything that he wants to have happen happens the but it's operating on two levels the the concept of the entire movie is to have it be a kid's movie a silly movie on the surface and to have you miss what's happening underneath you know it goes down to every detail of the movie like in the end celebration on Naboo the celebration music is actually Palpatine's theme from the emperor's theme from empire strikes back I mean from return of the Jedi in a major key instead of a minor key which is kind of what they're doing with the entire movie is he's showing you something dark but you don't see it and that's what George Lucas is saying about how democracy is lost to dictatorship it happens it doesn't happen because some other army comes in and a dictator takes over your democracy it's something that happens right underneath your nose and in the movie these these characters think that they they think that they won and you think that this is a kid's movie and actually what happens in the movie is that they lose the republic the bad guys win in the movie that's what happens in phantom menace is the bad guys win everything but you don't realize that it happens right in front of your eyes and you don't see it and that's the philosophical point of the whole thing that's the tonal point he's making the point with the tonal juxtaposition of these silly things that don't mean what you think that they mean he does it again and again hundreds of times with shots where he'll show you a particular shot that seems like an innocent shot but it actually mirrors a much darker shot in another part of the movie or one of the other movies and he's doing it over and over and over again telling you subtextually that you there's one thing on the surface that you're supposed to be watching what's underneath and it goes by the characters that's at the end Palpatine is you know Padme is standing there celebrating victory on the end and what Padme actually did was she just gave the republic to the evil emperor that's what she actually did when she's having a victory celebration and so it's good if I may just to prove that rick isn't full of shit here um what he's saying is like yeah it's supposed to be like the Padme you're supposed to look at that uh that excuse me the scene is kind of like you know everyone wins and like Padme won she's got a city back but in actuality it's win for the emperor Lucas actually did for that scene just an example this is all over the movies but um and this isn't my way I like rick knows way more about this than I do um if you actually listen I don't know how many of you guys know this but the theme that's playing in the celebration of the phantom innocence is actually the emperor's theme just uh remixed I knew that's a very good so so hold on a second it's good because it subverts your expectations every scene you know the point was that the question was subversion it's not subversion to mislead that's subverting your expectations you you're you're making sequel arguments no i'm not talking about subverting expectations when i'm expecting when i'm expecting there to be one tone of a movie and then you introduce another tone of a movie that's not subverting my expectations when it's supposed to be a lighthearted adventure but it's darker so then what is it if what i'm saying is semantically incorrect as far as subversion what would you call that what would you call it it's not subversion it is a lighthearted movie the point is that there's something else that you don't see happening underneath the lighthearted the juxtaposition of the plot with the tone is a deliberate style that's the message of the entire movie okay so let me see if I can let me let me see if I can rephrase this so I can see if I understand your point you're saying that the reason of the tone seems off in phantom menace because you have jar jar being comedic and then you have dark shit going on in other places is because the point the thematic point of the movie is is that what you said that we're all being distracted by kind of like funny normal things thinking life is okay but underneath it all there's like the dictators using power right that's what your your argument is I don't think it's totally that broad I think that he's not saying that every time something nice is happening there's no no I'm not yeah I'm not saying every time I'm just saying that's what your point is for the that's the you're saying that's the reason why you have jar jar and these comedic stuff is because his point is that that comedic stuff confuses you away from noticing the dark stuff or hides the dark that's the point my point is that you're asking why that tone was appropriate and that's my point is that to tell the story of how Palpatine takes over the republic he chose to tell it in the tone of a very light children's movie tone and that's that's you know that's my it's his explanation okay well that's okay that's a completely different point that's not what you said the first time I'm just that's a completely different point so which I'm like because you made this whole thing about how there's like this theme of like we don't notice you know the dictator coming in the power and now you're saying well it's just because it was a kid's movie no I'm saying the point is that it's what we think is benign on the surface is actually when a dictator takes over that you won't see it happening you won't you won't see it at face value you'll think that something else is happening and he's making that point with the tone of the movie okay okay okay so if that's the point of the movie tonally then Jar Jar fails at that utterly and completely because he doesn't distract the viewer into thinking all as well he makes everyone pissed off and annoys the shit out of everyone he's not I could I could buy wait a minute I could buy what you're saying what you're saying is a very interesting idea and I could buy that if you had a character like Jar Jar who is distracting us from the evil plan of Palpatine and everyone's getting sucked into saying oh I really love these this Jar Jar character I really love all these great funny characters and it was distracting me from realizing Palpatine's evil but that doesn't happen well but you're talking about your own reaction to the character not what the character that was the majority of people's reaction even at the time was everyone lots of people like my character I mean I I have a I could stop on that that's fine I guess I mean I know there's people who don't like him but I have a whole sequence in my video of all the kids that say that they love Jar Jar I mean so you're talking about your it only applies to children and not to adults I'm saying that that's why you use the children's yeah because you asked your original question was why is it appropriate to use a silly children's tone for a movie that's about more serious things in between no the question doesn't seem like conflict yes and I think glib was talking about on a on a far narrower level level not even the theme of the movie overall but just you have the scenes where it just cuts from something dark to just immediately Jar Jar's making a joke and it undercuts the emotion the emotional way of the scene yeah but even you know even in a Benji movie there'll be a scene where the dog gets hurt you can have dark scenes you can have the children's film with some sad moments yes you can but what we're saying is that wasn't well executed in Star Wars because you have a character that is almost entirely comedic relief that's always making mistakes and that's in the context of a scene that's supposed to be taken seriously like like earlier we were discussing how scenes and stuff you know exposition is an issue if it's unrelated to the plot or what like that what's the point of having Jar Jar step in Banta Pudu that's to please the kids right and that's totally away with right and that's totally inconsistent with the idea that we're leading up to this big race that's gonna that's the all the plot hinges on Anakin winning we should be building that up but instead we're being distracted like what Rick is saying that's supposed to be the theme of the movie is that we're distracted by kids jokes and I'm trying to figure out why that's good writing for Star Wars where was that in the original trilogy 3p on answer right start but they have plot relevant details that have to do with them and their their jokes are commentary on what's happening it's that we understand that C3PO he's a coward and he's doing these things and he's there along with them because he has a purpose in that crew why is Jar Jar not plot relevant Jar Jar has like a million plot functions the only reason why Jar Jar is there is because he has a life debt and then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go along with him other than that there's no reason for him to be there after they leave Nebu and I know they need a navigate a navigate to get through the planet's core and which is okay so they which is impossible she doesn't function by the way that's and he doesn't do anything to do that he he comes from when they come back they couldn't have any end battle without Jar Jar yeah you know right Jar Jar does plot things that's why he couldn't get rid of him it's too relevant but in terms of the the piloting thing I always I thought that was I don't want to bring it up but you brought up I thought it's very weird that first of all Qui-Gon's ready to totally ditch Jar Jar and leave him in prison which I don't know to me seems very un-Jed I like and only takes Jar Jar with him because Jar Jar claims he can navigate through the core but then when they're actually in the ship Jar Jar doesn't navigate through the core Qui-Gon knocks him out and then Obi-Wan's like how are we gonna get there and Qui-Gon's like I just do not have so fully how to get there do we know that Qui-Gon knocked him out I'm pretty sure he just told him to calm down uh no he did like a Jedi nerve I mean a Vulcan nerve pinch on yeah the the confirmation myself at first but he doesn't use a a force version of the Vulcan nerve pinch and Jar Jar is loopy for a little bit kind of he's kind of out of it I would say the confirmation is Obi-Wan saying something like you doesn't he say something like you you may have done that too hard yeah everyone says he may have overdone it yeah that I understand that excuse me I understand that the Gungans are relevant in the plot later because they need to create a diversion I understand that that they need to be roped into the plot later but that at the point in the movie from Qui-Gon's perspective and Obi-Wan's perspective they never go into why he decides to be the tag along and all these missions that have to do with securing the princess he's an unknown factor he's he's like an external character the only reason why he goes along is because of the life debt and somehow that's good enough for Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon yet at the same time they can't free Anakin's mother from slavery well yes I guess specifically to your point you would you could say well like why the fuck would they take Jar Jar into tattooing with them why would they just leave him on the show why would they do that what's the justification oh I mean because he might be useful later I think the answer that's pretty simple the Jar Jar was the life debt first of all Qui-Gon could have taken any Gungan he chose to take Jar Jar because Jar Jar did help him out all right and he didn't he didn't he just kidnapped a Gungan why would he need to take anybody at all he used the mind if you can mind trick a fucking cool from the boss now I'm pretty sure he could have mind tricking Gungan to help him out I mean but but hold on a second it could technically dry that yeah you know Qui-Gon's character he just kind of breaks it are we gonna gloss over the fact that you can go through the planet's core to get to Naboo that that's not I think Taylor took that way too literally I think it's just as simple as going through you know the under the undercavins of Naboo to uh a shortcut to feed well that's um Plinkett outlined is that like oh you're not cutting right through the planet because there's lava there I'm like yeah no shit like it's well then they shouldn't have said everything is meant to be taken so literally yeah but then why say that like that's what I'm going to ask how do we know that there's love how you're getting into technical speculation again I don't know why I just say go through the water well what I mean is what I mean by I guess magmar and and it's just a general but you understand what we're talking about good writing the thing is you don't want your audience to constantly question what the fuck's going on so George Rukas writes the line go through the planet core and he doesn't think wait a minute if I write go through the planet core my audience is going to immediately think how the fuck can you go through the planet core it's like it's like molten metal and lava that's an example of bad writing why is it molten metal you're assuming okay what what I'm assuming since it's an earth planet it looks like a same way they do everywhere else and I will to to get I don't think we should get hung up too much on this but to each side's credit while I don't think the planet core is literal I do think that planets have a core of molten metal yeah I was gonna agree on that if you picture a big sphere and the line from one side of the planet to the other is drawn in such a way that it's just like to the right or left of the core as depicted on a sphere you might say to someone else yeah you're going that route it's essentially through the planet core you know like you wouldn't I don't I don't necessarily see much of an issue with them describing it that way especially with boss now seems to be trying to intimidate them when he says it um like the idea that it doesn't necessarily legitimately literally mean they go directly through the planet's core I think you could probably let that go well in addition to that I have a question about what the plan was before they met up with Jar Jar how are they going to get to Naboo in the first place where they need to go to all the way through the the floating cloak planet core where are they going to go Jar Jar save their ass so it wasn't the plan to get to terrible plan is what you're saying well you're asking sorry so once just to clarify so once they were landing from having hidden from the droids you're asking what was their plan to get to Naboo yeah we I guess we wouldn't we wouldn't know we wouldn't they were never outlined so we could assume that they were just going to try and sneak their way to Naboo somehow that's really all we've got to wait with but I wouldn't know that that's a flaw compared to it's out of desperation that's where they are it's not like they plan to be there you know I didn't quite go and try to take over the ship why didn't they try to send a message on the ship there's a million different things you could have done as opposed to just well I'm going to drop out on this planet who the fuck knows where and try to run my way to the capital doesn't seem like a great plan and even if it was the plan why is the plan to go to the gun gun city by this random dude that they saved better is it the force that's telling him that why did the Jedi go to the gun gun city yeah my question it's it's similar to Palpatine it seems like a lot of characters in Star Wars don't have a plan unless everything happens coincidentally the exact way it's supposed to happen in the story by things outside of their control and that's why it seems very contrived and like that writing I can explain the majority of this stuff but I want to point out something quite important to a lot of the Santa Menace at least in terms of how they arrive at Wato's doorstep and find Anakin um the whole premise of Anakin is that he's the prophesied chosen one correct from the same page there like you know finding him very I'm like what was the chance that was bumped straight into Jar Jar what was the chances they would have bar and on Tatooine of all places what was the chances that they would have and uh walked up what walks up to Wato's shop places um and ran to Anakin right and what is the what was the odd bad writing that's bad writing man let me finish okay go on what was the odds that Jar Jar who should never have been found in the first place would have been um uh picked a fight with Sabola which caused Anakin to go to meet up with him again sure he would have already done because he liked Padme but anyway um Qui-Gon goes to the council finding him was the will of the force and no doubt of that so you know I don't usually like to play this card but it's in that it's like it's a grill to like the premise of the Santa Menace and like finding of the chosen one don't think it's too outlandish to say some of the circumstances they find themselves in is sort of governed by the force it's something that the the the prequels and the rest of the sick Star Wars move I mean except Anakin's prophesied turn of course is that to find him it doesn't rely on coincidence as a crutch like for example the Force Awakens stars where everyone just happens to be like neighbors and shit um it's a bit different it's been more cleverly crafted is what I would say it's it's because sorry let me finish let me finish um and by the way just like the the whole everything happened like the will of the force thing that's not the crutch of my argument that's the dressing okay I'm just saying that's uh Qui-Gon even says that as like the whole reason he uh he really wanted to take any lives was like you know nothing he even says nothing happens by accident okay but then again that's that's Jedi philosophy again the finding of the chosen one was uh it's fate was yeah I I don't just I assume it it was fate like having having your having sense dressing okay but well then I just I understand that you're I don't see what that has to do with planning how to get from one place to another we'll understand that you're kind of trying to you kind of kind of have it both ways I understand that you're saying that that's not your main point but you understand that that's not good writing to just say well we have some magical intangible invisible force that's just dictating all the actions of the characters and this is just the reason why everything happens the way it does that's that's is literally an example of bad writing but that's not well yeah on its own it's bad writing on its own but that's not actually that's underlying for like the majority of the movie um that's again I can largely explain a number of different things that's I mean you know bombing into Jar Jar was pretty random I've done that down to just a little before us um Jar Jar saving their lives may I may ask a question just for just for I guess asking how do how do we differentiate between something being a coincidence and something being the will of the force well there there's an answer to that I mean the thing is that in in the six the six real Star Wars movies the six George Lucas Star Wars movies there there's an intelligence to the force the force is doing things deliberately it's not just the stuff happens because it happens and then everything everything that happens is the will of the force there's specific events like Anakin meeting Qui-Gon that the force is specifically making happen it's I don't know if you've read the interviews where Lucas has talked about it a little bit recently but when he talks about the wills and the um midi-chlorians you know the idea was um the world well so you know we're we're not saying well this is but we're not saying that it's a plot hole that the will of the force exists we're just saying it's bad writing I mean I understand that it exists in the story it's just bad writing if you know if you ignore rags had a specific question rags had a specific question answer the question yeah oh right it's it's not for the point of the discussion of the conversation because we are getting okay the idea that the force is it is an agent not actually a force but but but an agent that has desires and the will and it's supposed to be and in George Lucas's cosmology the force has an intelligence they're supposed to be creatures behind it that are interfering at certain points and there's you know rationale behind this which you can complain that it's not explained enough in the movies which is why I kind of stopped myself because I was getting into stuff that's not actually in the movies but the the point is the difference between that and just a coincidence or just uh just saying everything is the will of the force is that there's actually there is a thought behind it there's a reason that the force did this and there's a reason that the force did that and there's a reason that the force doesn't do other things there you know this argument can be used to justify in rise of the Skywalker there's that awful fucking scene where where where Poe is flying and the the bad guys turn off the radar that they're supposed to blow up and Poe says they switched the radar to that ship up there and then the lady's like how do you know that he says a feeling and I go wow that's terrible awful lazy contrived writing even though I understand plot wise it's the force telling him that doesn't excuse the writing but there is the exact opposite because there's a reason for the force doing things in the Lucas movies there's no reason that the there's there you don't think you don't think I could make the argument that the force and rise of Skywalker wants to destroy Palpatine because he's evil and unbalancing the force or whatever so the forces that's no the forces the force deals in cosmic events it's doing big things like making Qui-Gon meat Anakin it's not specifically giving people destroying not a big thing I do feel like those are both fairly specific things mechanically that occur and but don't rags don't you agree that this is the same point I'm I'm trying this is this is what I'm trying to I guess have people because this is why I'm asking how do we differentiate between something that's just a total coincidence in a in the Star Wars universe with something that is a direct result of for example Han showing up to Rey moments after they escaped the planet moments after they find the Falcon could we say that all of that was the will of the force or not no absolutely not what's stupid is what is Rey is how does it work die out of the force what are you talking about can I finish please I think more to rag this point like how do we differentiate is how much evidence you have to sort of prove the point and how much the characters reference it like quite if you watch the Phantom Menace through Qui-Gon references the will of the force and coincidence not being like the meaning not happening by chance quite a lot I think it's safe to say like you know some of it because every movie most movies have you know operate with some level of convenience um it's like you know Rise of Skywalker that really bad ones like Rise of Skywalker lie on committees it's their whole crutch and they don't bother to explain Phantom Menace actually puts in some legwork to sort of justify the convenience I think that's where you can sort of I say something may I ask what is the so I think all of this discussion began on the idea that Qui-Gon bumping into Jar Jar was the will of the force is that correct what you are saying or I mean no uh well I mean yes but like by uh sort of like by proxy to how he meets Anakin because he wouldn't have met Anakin or Anakin wouldn't have like stunned to them were not for Jar Jar coming along so how can I differentiate if I'm allowed to play a little bit of a devil's advocate here could the defense of Rey bumping into Han in all the things that that results to with ultimately her defeating Palpatine and that not also be the will of the force through the same rules the same rules yes but I don't think it's feasible because I don't bother to justify it well yeah I think it's very I think it's I just just trying to get this discussion sort of moved and try to get into the mechanics of it a little bit better and well again I was I was I was never meant to use this argument as a crutch rags it was just meant to sort of be like an underlying sort of extra like a layer I guess just pressing us into exploring it and how we find some kind of a guideline or a system because I do think it is legitimate to ask how to again how do we differentiate between really bad writing conveniences or just reasonable conveniences in the universe and saying that any event happens because it is the will of the force like how do we categorize all of those things insist well and it's important to clarify that just because there's a plot reason for something like the will of the force doesn't mean it's not a terrible writing conveniences these are not exclusive ideas again I think it comes down to how much connected tissue there is to sort of prove it as feasible again I think the has enough I'm saying I'm saying the feasibility of it has nothing to do with it it's still lazy writing no the difference is a few if the premise is that there's an invisible fate thing that exists through all the prequel movies that's forcing all the characters to kind of come to some conclusion and that explains every possible question you have that's literally lazy writing because you're saying well I don't want to have to think intelligently how these characters go along this path it's just fate I never mentioned it in reference to the entire prequel trilogy I mentioned it in reference to the Phantom Menace and I said yeah like Anakin ultimately Anakin's like just in with a broad stroke here the path he takes is like the will of the force the prophecy right we can all agree on that much at least um but that's speaking about how just in terms of finding him was also out of that as well because otherwise how else will they have found it what are the limits then what are the limits of this argument that you're making the difference is from a writing standpoint that there's a whole story that the force that Anakin is made by the midichlorians he's a chosen one the force wants him to be found there's a whole story to that and so that's the premise as you start with the story of a chosen one and what what is his story which is the opposite of oh okay well we have Harrison Ford under contract so he needs to show up in the movie now well we don't have any reason for him to show up right now so we'll just say the force why are you assuming the best intentions for the prequels and the worst intentions for the sequel that's not a valid argument those are the actual intentions that went into them there's an actual in reading George Lucas and uh JJ Abrams now no you're not listening to what i'm saying there's a story behind Anakin and the chosen one there's no story behind why Han Solo happens to be sitting there yeah but that's a false equivalency we're talking about Rey being the force dyad that's an equivalent to the chosen one and in fact they're trying to retcon her to be the chosen one so what then and i'm not saying that's in the movie but the force dyad thing is in the movie because that's again working backwards and they pull that straight out of their arse Anakin has been the premise of Anakin's character has been chosen one from day one force dyad let's explore let's explore the prophecy because it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever i don't think we're gonna get anywhere on okay i think we both made a point all right so i don't want to hear and in the phantom minutes they say the prophecy is that he will bring balance to the force okay and then that's later that's later expounded upon in revenge of sith where he says he will destroy the sith and bring balance to the force so my first question is how does destroying the sith bring balance to the force that would literally be the opposite of bringing balance to the force right that's that's that's the point is that no no i'm asking okay the word balance means that there's equal forces on both sides that's literally what the word balance means that's the point is that when you notice says that the the prophecy could have been misread the jedi assume when the jedi here bring balance to the force the jedi assume oh that means we're gonna get rid of the bad guys what the prophecy actually means anakin brings balance to the force by helping to kill all the jedi at the end of at the end of revenge of the sith there's balance on the force because there's two sith and well you know basically there's a couple sith left and a couple jedi left so anakin actually did it but he did it by killing the jedi the jedi just never thought that that could be what it would the jedi never thought the prophecy could mean that there's too many of us and a lot of us need to go okay so your argument is that all the jedi for the three movies were all just completely wrong with their interpretation of the prophecy regarding anakin that that their interpretation that destroyed the sith was not balanced to the force it was just literally what you said that that he's gonna kill all the jedi and there's only gonna be two jedi and two sith that's what your that's your argument yeah the jedi the jedi think the balance means that they have all the power which is the balance so then why does george lucas literally say the exact opposite he says anakin does fulfill the prophecy because he kills palpatine and himself does destroying the sith okay so what's your problem then so because you're arguing both sides at the point you're saying well wait a minute he brought balance because the jedi were wrong he wasn't supposed to kill the sith he was supposed to kill the jedi to bring balance but then george lucas literally says no he kills all the sith thus bringing balance even though at the end i know he doesn't bring balance because lucas is alive there's no sith just back i did i never made the argument that um destroying the jedi and that was rick's argument actually i know but i'm talking to rick i thought okay okay okay well before maybe maybe we need to get to the foundational issue of this point which is what does bringing balance to the force mean what does the force look like can we even be definitive about that or can we only infer well we can only work on what characters tell us right well i mean the the prophecy anakin does oh like himself and the sith and there's no more sith left and left and it's only luc so i think we can it's definitive that bring balance means vanquish the place potential well you well you and rick can argue because you're both saying the opposite things i don't know we don't agree on everything me and rick okay but so what's the position here i think that it's reasonable to have a lot of different interpretations on what balance of the force means a lot of people in chan have been saying that the light side is the balance yeah like the presence of the dark side or the sith are the imbalance to expunge them would be to bring balance that's never talked about so always talked about light and dark side is being a dichotomy never talked about like light is the natural state of being and then dark is a corruption of that yeah i don't think that that's the intention at the end of return of the jedi vader does kill himself and kill the emperor and there's but there's not only luke left you can assume that there's still dark side people in the universe there's still you know they're not trained so yeah why not there's still no no no the no the an assumption is made not because of why not but because of supporting reasons to assume things oh what was the assumption yeah we assume things because there is reason to we don't assume things because why not because jedi and sith are a religion they're not a state of being just because there's no jedi being trained they're still going to be force sensitive people being born which brings into question a lot and that's a that's a pandora's box right there that's a big pandora's box it's right i'm confused what can we just bring it back to say what was the assumption that was made that was uh you felt wasn't just the something's dying there's a guy cutting the lawn right outside no no the assumption was that uh rick said that there could be other sith roaming around at the end of return of the jedi that we don't see that was the original no not so or dark side users or whatever they're still they're still force users at the end of return of the jedi they're just not trained by the jedi or the sith those two orders have been reduced down to basically just look we just don't see them and they're never mentioned or talked about jedi and sith are are religions you you don't have to be a jedi to be somebody that's force sensitive those people are still going to exist if the jedi order is gone i mean the prequels proves that i mean the glory religion is a good analogy for that but i think it is reasonable to say that there are force sensitive people out there i do think that's always kind of been the implication that there are they are out there i'm wondering if at the end of episode six where is the implication that the balance means that when darth vader and you know like when city has died does that mean somewhere in the galaxy there's a new sith rising to take his place no i'm sure it's i mean i i'm i'm not positive i mean george lucas has even said the prophecy was fulfilled when um he killed the emperor it doesn't change anything that was the prophecy and if the prophecy means being balanced on the force then we can like further the right word i'm sorry i'm not good with words um that's did in fact bring balance and balance did in fact mean vanquishing of the sith and just and and we can assume that there are because of the prequels we can absolutely assume there's more force senses out there just it just depends on whether they don't take a train or not luke being the last jedi he is the one who has to train them and then i don't know how that turned out well if your argument is that lucas was incorrect and using the word balance i agree with you if what all depends on what balance he's he means by balance so well that's part of the problem we don't know we do it because the sith gets vanquished how is that so balance is the existence of only light side the light side yeah how does that make any sense is is that what balance is i mean i don't i don't know if someone wants to be like that's how the jedi city have like a healthy balanced diet and eating shrapnel would be the imbalance because it'll kill you i don't know like the idea that you can't possibly look at the word balance to mean something like that i'd be like i don't know i don't know it's all very okay when you okay when you talk about when you talk about food so let's just eat a balanced diet they're saying okay well you can eat your ice cream and shit but you you know don't gorge yourself on it has to be balanced that's to be part of your appropriately balanced diet okay balance literally means you have equal things on both sides so if you're having a story that centers around two warring factions like the light side and the dark side and you say bring balance that implies that at the end of it they're going to be in the same position not one's going to dominate the other and they are in the same position the the light side and the dark side still exist if the sithral murdered they don't they don't go anywhere the imbalance was that the jedi order had a monopoly on force usage that everybody was going to be trained in this one religion this one way of using the force that was the imbalance at the end there's lucas still lucas still live lucas still trained as a jedi but there's not one jedi religion that is dominating how the whole galaxy uses the force there's still light side and dark side there's still people that are born for sensitive but there's not that's one jedi religion that is dictating how that works for the whole galaxy and the sith rise as a reaction to the jedi having dominance having control over everything out of curiosity right and this is not this is not an argument i just want to know what your answer is okay so if george lucas was in this chat right now at this call and he said imbalance means the presence of the sith and the expunging the means balance in the force what would your response be oh are you asking me oh well you you all sit you'll both the i mean if george lucas says that then that's what george lucas says i'm not going to tell me he's wrong about star wars i mean i i i'm i wouldn't actually say that that's a bad thing to do like if an author if george lucas said there are no lightsabers and star wars i'd be like you're wrong i don't care that you made the films you're wrong they are there um so i'm curious like would you disagree with him would you tell him that he should have used a better word for example no i wouldn't disagree with him if it's something that is obviously factually wrong then okay but if it's if it's if it's a what i'm saying right now is based on what i know in my opinion and what i've heard him say this is my best understanding of it but if he said that i i got something wrong then i'm not going to tell him what i'm not going to tell him what he thinks it's his own intentions that i'm speculating about well we can't this is why the execution is so important so at this very base level of what balance of the force means there's not such an incredibly um deep discussion and debate um about you know what does it mean what is the force's will is the force because the force is an agent apparently from these movies that wants things and works towards a goal the force wanted you know all this stuff to come to pass how does that function how does it work what's a coincidence but isn't what's being guided what isn't being guided so it's so it's an example of bad writing because we don't know when it's not clear in the movie and i can i point something out about the different interpretations i'd like to point something out about that is that in the journal of the wills the original george lucas scripts that he was trying to write those were what the sequels were supposed to explain that we actually will get to see the people that have power over the force just never got executed in the sequels that was part of the original plan so but it is unfortunately technically still bad that we didn't get a full explanation because there's a there's a cognitive dissonance between the idea of humans and beings balancing the force and the force willing them to do things how does that cycle work what's the and how is that still frustrated i'm frustrated by the fact that anything that uh sit or i could say that could be an inconsistency could be construed as the will of the force when i don't think it's been very defined as to what it is that qualifies that except for a vague notion that um uh it's well we can textualized but but that applied right here and ask we can ask anomaly and rick right now is can anything be explained can you're sorry can everything be explained by the will of the force or is the will of the force are there things that it it is not an answer for basically i know yeah that's what i'm trying to say here yeah that's what i'm just trying to make clear i'll give you let me give you anything like i can feel like again like i used probably should have waited to bring that up because that was never meant to be the meat of my argument i just wanted to bring attention sort of lend credibility to some of the convenience in the fancy menace because it is elaborated on is like not happening by chance again i think what governs what is justified as convenience is um how much how much attention is brought to the fact that it's a you know i mean like if Han Solo instead of just Han Solo just showing up they say like i think he does say he saw the falcons transponder or whatever but like um you know i don't think that's enough whereas in one mentions it multiple times that this is the uh no this doesn't happen by this this wasn't an accident finding him was the will of the force um no he also then shed some light on the midichlorians whispering uh what the force you know the will of the force so to speak which you know uh inform us as to why he takes the actions that he takes which he makes a lot of uh decisions which are fun to interpret um it's one of the reasons why quaggling's probably my favorite character in the the prequels to be honest um but that's a whole nother discussion again i just meant i just meant the will of the force as dressing i was more than happy to sort of break it down meeting Jar Jar gone from Jar Jar to the Gungan city then to Thied then to Tatooine bumping into water um i was never meant to use that as a crutch it was just merely because it just seemed real so we go ahead i was just saying are we conceding on the uh prophecy is vague and confusing and never explained point and just moving on from that or well i was going to say that glib is right that there is in Lucas's plan for nine movies there was supposed to be a lot in the third six uh in the third trilogy there was going to go a lot more into the wills and how how and why the mechanics of how the will of the force works so that is kind of something that we don't get as much of an explanation as might have been intended but my point about why that that's different there and Han and Ray with the millennium falcon is that there is a logic to this there's like a great deal of thought to it and it's not about everything it's only about specific incidents specific things that are meant to be done by the wills through the force and it's it's for Lucas it was never just uh oh that's i wrote myself into a corner so it's the force there's a whole cosmology to it in either way if regardless of intentions of the creators these are events that occur in the universe either way so Ray's importance and how the force would see ray it is reasonable to say that if the force wants her to quote unquote truly fulfill the prophecy and i know it and you know it and everyone in this room knows that sequels are fucking horseshit but unfortunately that is what happens in the star wars universe so how do we what i'm saying is with ray's importance especially how the force would see here in terms of that importance can we use the same arguments for her in terms of convenience and power levels and all that by saying it's the will of the force that it is that way to fulfill its goal it's all in in universe regardless of external intentions and things of that nature i think within the universe you can look at particular things and see oh you know okay i can i can understand i can see the architecture and i can understand that there's a reason why the force would want quite gone to me anakin and there's a reason that there's like a logical cause and effect and you see how this fits together with what we actually know before you before you continue i'll let i'll let you finish but just before you continue isn't there also a reason for the force to want ray to meet Han Solo no there i i don't think so i what there is is that they they have ray meet Han Solo and then afterwards JJ Abrams pulls something out of his ass you know i mean there's footage of something from wherever you pull it it is in the movie it exists as a scene ray has to meet Han Solo because his death is what propels her to be invested in the conflict for the rest of the movies it's never a lab right i don't think ray's ever really invested in the conflict oh no here's what do you mean he goes off to go get luke what do you mean she's totally like the the thing here is that we agree that the sequels we agree that ray's shit and the sequels are shit and their garbage are terrible and they wish they never occurred where that is that is not in contention i don't think it bothers you rags that you have to keep making that point i it's i just want to be clear that you know i know despite how much we hate it it does occur in the film it is a thing that happens if anything that's why we hate it so much because it does happen yes exact thank you exactly um yeah but there's no reason for it in those films makes any sense i'm sorry can you say that again i didn't hear you i said there's no reason for it in those films that makes any sense though i mean there's not a cause in effect there's an event and then an explanation you know what i mean i i would caution i would caution you on the grounds of being like as long as you can justify that the ultimate payoff of the sequels is led to by any convenience the convenience is okay because it would therefore be a part of the will of the force i feel like we could it doesn't take long to justify a lot of the crazy conveniences of all three of those movies yeah it's very easy it's actually really easy to say it is extremely logical for the force to want ray to meet Hong solo so that you know events down the road lead to the force getting what its will is which is her defeating Palpatine i'm i agree that it's dumb but it does occur right can you guys see me i put it yes i can hear you now you dropped out for a moment but you're back now but yeah i just um the reason i i say it's justified um and i don't i don't use it as a crutch like i can absolutely go into like explaining all the the same by same shit um the reason i gave a credit in a fancy message because there it actually is the convenience and the privacy and the uh um yeah the will of the force is it has brought being brought attention to like disney didn't do the legwork to i mean if people want to justify ray's conveniences place is force awakens as conveniences as just the will of the force of okay where's your proof where's a reference um and i can't think of a real scene they keep saying i have a wait wait so let me i just i'm curious i want to let me give it a shot so that's not i'm sorry like this is literally a neutral statement i just want to see how you'd react to it so the force wanted the falcon on um jaku and he he sorry and it wanted um it wanted harm to find ray when he did because it will lead them to getting bb8 two layer which will lead to them finding luke which will lead to luke you know playing his role in the trilogy which all of it eventually leads to the to the defeat of palpatine and the saving of the galaxy like can we not draw these sorts of lines uh well my understanding with how luke says that it's supposed to work with the the wills and the midi chlorines it's not that the the the wills are the they're the creatures that live on a different plane of existence from us and they communicate to us through the midi chlorines right the they're they're not like you know is that moving spaces i because i we have to leave that out we have to leave out the wills you know our stuff because it's not represented um more sorry more to your point i'm interrupted like more more to your point like what do you mean if it was so so if i said if so let's say someone says it's so fucking convenient that han shows up when he does with ray and i go well i mean of course it is it's the will of the force because if he didn't then she'd never be able to connect with him and bb8 and get bb8 to layer to get layer to send someone to get to luke etc etc answer would be bullshit because there's no reference to the will of the force whatsoever in the movie so property anyway in the movie oh yeah episode one these are these are sequels to each other if you establish the force is an agent that has a will in episode one then the same force is an agent that has a will in episode seven because um the the will like the yeah you can say it but like the way it's referenced in the phantom menace is surrounding anakin like as the chosen one like the prophesy you know prophesied to find the chosen one um whereas ray is it's really just well surely surely you'd agree that ray is more important than anakin because she actually defeats palpatine yeah i mean i don't when i want to make these arguments like you guys know i'm not i don't count the sequels as the wall because they want to like well like the whole reason we despise them is because they're counted right like we wouldn't care if they were fanfictions yeah we hate them as much as you but they know what they are they are fanfictions sorry like i just that's that was my uh i have a strict policy with um there are some gray i should probably should have explained this i have some gray there are some gray areas to this their logic is not black and white but um basically anything that isn't done by the original creator actually fiction um objectively fanfiction because you can't replicate an intellect you can only imitate it um now again you guys can interpret that however you want you can probably find some holes i'm saying it's bulletproof um like it's just it's just the way it is but subjectively you can make whatever canon you want like i count rogue one as canon even though objectively i consider it a fan fiction is that kind of makes sense can i can i agree with you on that and just say that like head canon and stuff and like choosing what you want out of it is really great and i agree i actually am with you that the only first six movies are head canon but the reason why we're pulling these arguments up is because they exist in the current canon and they exist as story elements that may have in them the same ideas as the prequels when it comes to the will of the force what the force died at is destiny the chosen one all of those things play into it we can't say that it doesn't it factually exists that like that but if you're trying to analyze the writing in prequels then it's irrelevant with some other people there's nothing to do with the intentions behind what's in the prequels well no but so i'm not being that useful with the sequels and not the prequels there because the the prequels made it without the but without the sequels exist it was the sequels that we're just trying to use the same criteria of critiquing something so if the only difference is well it's okay for the prequels because george lucas wrote it and it's not okay if the sequels because it was written by someone who's not george lucas like it seems like that's so far the only difference we've gotten the sequels could have used it but they didn't even bother to do the legwork for it like george did in the ma did it why do they need to do the legwork it's already been established in the prequels how does that the force um if i could just exist but he made sure to do the legwork surrounding a character what do you mean by character what do you mean when you say legwork to establish it what are you referencing what are you referring to when you say um i don't need anything specific i just want to understand what you mean when you say that basically just how quiagon references um interprets his finding of anakin um and he again he even says to the council like finding him was the will of the force i have no doubt of that like uh and he says to um says to shmi is like shmi asking is like is he to become a jedi and he's like yes he's like our meeting was not coincidence happens by accident um so and then and then it's the jedi that uh yeah go well bouncing off the point you just said we have quiagons interpretation of the force we have the council's interpretation to the force how can we be sure who has the correct interpretation in who's right when they say something is the will of the force you can't there's supposed to be an ambiguity to it i think i think the events that play out sort of like i so i think there is an i don't really know how to answer that if i'm honest like well i think you could also say that based on the way things play out with the takeover of the empire the destruction of the jedi one would say oh clearly the will of the force was not followed because it led to this you know catastrophe that we're in or the force wants them to be destroyed or the force wants them to be destroyed maybe that is the will of the force maybe the force is it i mean painting i'm happy to say that like painting with a very very very very broad stroke the events that happen uh is the will of the force and like part of the prophecy which was established episode one and i think it's episode six um because i find the force's will being ambiguous i'm okay with that being ambiguous if characters consistently have reasons for believe it like if you have a fictional universe where you have like multiple sects of a religion who are both interpreting like a scripture in different ways but they're both consistent on their interpretations like i'm fine with that um i think it's very interesting i think it's just for us what balance means and and again all this kind of started from believe it or not jargir in the woods was again the core of how do we distinguish between an actual coincidence and the will of the force guiding things into occurring and you did say that not everything can be explained as the will of the force so absolutely absolutely okay i was never i never meant to as a crutch like yeah i was just clarifying i did have a follow-up though um in relation to you saying that uh you wouldn't allow that um excuse for the sequels because it wouldn't be canon i would be curious in because i'm assuming you've done a lot of work in relation to tearing down uh rise of skywalk or all the sequel trilogy and you know in like in both to how it contradicts itself its own trilogy but also how it would contradict the prequels in the ot right you probably point out a lot for example how it tears anakin's achievement away from him so in that particular analysis would you then have to conceive that the will of the force would be canon and that would explain how rehan met okay okay i should probably i should probably say okay let me further clarify um even though i don't like the like the sequels exist um george lee said nothing to do with them and they're trying to what makes them like even though they are fan fictions they still still exist in the star wars universe they still have to play by certain rules to be good um i'm not i'm not saying the will of the force can't exist in the prequels i'm just saying they did did a if it did exist they did a piss poor fucking job uh elaborating on it whatsoever that's why i don't buy it um whereas the phantom ennis and like revenge the sith um through and that's why i can again with a very broad stroke um i can buy the will of the force in the prequels and the ot kind of how can i say that they they did a good job explaining if you two can't even agree on what the prophecy meant talking no i'm i that's the prophecy in the will of the force is two different two different things i see well no because you're saying that the will no it's not because you're saying the will of the force is dictating that that quagon needs to meet anakin for some reason which is the prophecy which is the prophecy and you say okay well what's the prophecy well we don't know i conclude right i could later i conclude that it all leads to that destiny that's the fate of it that's what the story is about it's it's all depending with a very broad stroke yes well it's a really it's a really it's a really broad stroke to say that the will of the force is the reason why everything's happened isn't it they didn't say that like they didn't say that everything is because of the will of the force which is why i asked the question for clarification and then that's my problem is that i don't know because yeah i'm worried that these two are gonna like sort of use that as a crotch to say like i the only my only excuse for everything is that everything happens by chance and no that's that's what my point of clarification was that cleared that up and hopefully it shouldn't okay good yeah right which is why i'm going to bring with you uses an excuse i'm not gonna i used it as again i used it as dressing to sort of further credibility to the coincidences um in the phantom menace at least as it pertains to anakin or the finding of anakin everything happens after that i don't i don't really have any to say the guidance was except for like again the big story beats of like it's not connective tissue it's kind of makes sense no i understand i'm just and my point was that it it doesn't really matter because even if there's an explanation in universe for an invisible and tangible force you know creating coincidences or contrivances that's still bad writing even if it's explained and the narrative i mean you can narrow it on that move on that line i guess and the narrow i'm having to grade it just a grade but i think i've again i think that's the menace at least to sort of bring at some level to mention it i think the topic of destiny fate and prophecy in media is its own discussion like by itself is worthy of its own separate thing so we can definitely move on from it a bit um but i just wanted to know i wanted to know the narrow specific instance of what kwaigon's plan that was my initial point of that brought up this diatribe as far as i'm concerned i wanted to know in the context of when kwaigon was getting down to the planet and he was going to nabu and he decided to go with jar jar was that the will of the force and how would we know that that as a specific instance bothers me because it seems like i know went along with it he decided well i mean you could say the world of forces at work but i don't use that as a crutch for him justifying that you know that's why kwaigon went with jar jar kwaigon and obu one were fucked kwaigon was being pursued by the droids and obu one was pursued they made a shit ton of noise like when they'd warm up and they're surrounded and they could hear them off in the distance closing in and they say jar jar okay uh take us to your city because they're gonna kill us otherwise so they were so they were winging it we mean so when he went down to the planet he had no plan basically i don't think he planned to get caught if that's what you're asking well kwaigon didn't get caught obu one was getting chased but kwaigon was being ignored right the tank even runs over kwaigon and doesn't even notice him there their plan was just to stow away on the ship to get off of off of the federation control and meet down on the surface yeah they're gonna they didn't know where on the surface they were gonna end up they were gonna meet up and then so they were winning it because they were winning it like i said yeah what are they trying to take over the ship that they're in they could try to hide in the ship till it reaches the capital all i was trying to prove it to the republic from the ship how do you know the ship's going to the capital how do you know that they can call the republic from the ship well i don't we don't know anything because the movie doesn't tell us anything about what happens on the ship great as as a good as the planet observation if their plan was to have the ships take them to feed specifically and they didn't i don't think they would be worse off than they ended up being with what we have in the movie well we're we're told no you're right because it doesn't matter because they take over the city but we're told Obi-Wan's plan in the hangar bay is we have to go down and warn the naboo okay that means we have to warn them before the army shows up so how is going down with the army and then planning to run to the capital wherever the army shows up a good plan to warn the naboo before the army shows up they were just off to the ship they didn't have a another way to get off of the ship what else were they supposed to do away and then who knows i could have hijacked the ship all down there they could have hijacked a tank or they're done whatever unfortunately Obi-Wan gets caught and they and they get closed in on by the droids and jar jar off to take them to the gunman city i think it's a fair fair point it could literally just be a dialogue thing like he should have said help the naboo rather than warn them because there's no way you're warning them about an invasion that you're in you know yeah because you have to get there first and to have any meaningful impact you need to get there not only first but you know you even could like an hour because like they're here other than they're here it's like well that wolding was useful and my point was not my point was not about whether or not they had a good plan my point was whether or not it was the will of the force or they were just winging it and i just wanted to differentiate in that context to give a contextual argument to what you're saying about i think he said it wasn't the will of the force okay so then when there's an inconvenience next time that we bring up how are we such an eye gonna know that it's not the will of the force because because if they think it's the will of the force they'll say that's the will of the force great okay let's we can operate purely mechanically excellent let's move on i said will of the force i meant like in the sort of like grand scheme like the like all the events sort of leading up to uh anakin's meeting like if you like let's not get back on to the top i feel like i'm i'm i don't think it was boss again again it was never meant to be a it was never meant to be a crime shield that good it's all good we want to go next so yes don't want anyone on the internet like representing my yeah it's okay keep going uh so i guess movie to remind her for everybody movie timeline we are only at the part where kwaigon and jar jar meet i know very very slow going so this this three movie debate has now reached the first quarter try to get the tattooing at least let's try to speed up a little bit okay uh okay here's a here's a fun little part so when the i'll skip ahead a bunch of points that we won't talk about why the joys didn't land directly in a bit or i mean in the capital whatever but so you have the queen the the jedi and the queen security forces are arguing about what to do the security forces say you know you should stay on the planet and the jet are like you should leave the planet right that's what okay so we agree that that's the that's what's going on so the problem with this is that on second viewing we know that the queen isn't actually the queen that's the decoy and pad made the real queen is standing right next to the queen so what happens is in the scene when the jedi and the security council are turning to the fake queen and saying what do we do padmate the queen says either options will be dangerous and then pad made the real queen says we are brave your highness this is the scene that you need to go back on second viewing and say oh pad may secretly telling the decoy what the fuck to do but she doesn't and it turns out to be the decoy who decides to go to the senate and we don't actually know what pad may wan