Good evening. I could ask everybody to take their seats. Thank you all for coming. I'm Andrew Schwartz, Senior Vice President, CSIS. Welcome to the CSIS Texas Christian University Sheeper Series in Public Policy and Journalism. We have a great panel tonight. Thank you all for coming out and braving the weather. It will be well worth it. And with that, I'd like to introduce my good friend, the great Bob Sheeper. Thank you all very much, and thank you so much for coming out tonight. We had more than 300 responses to this. And then, of course, it rained. And here in Washington, it's the first time it's ever rained, every time it rains. But I thought we'd have a very small, intimate group here. But we have a really good-sized crowd that came out on behalf of the Sheeper School of Journalism down at TCU. I had really wanted to have this panel to delve into the corruption and the illegality and the immorality of the bowl championship series. Because we should have been going to the sugar bowl. And we're not. There's no reason that we're not. But we're going to do, instead, we're going to do cybersecurity tonight. And we've got a great panel. Once again, this is our 32nd of these sessions. We've done 32 of them now. And that's spread over a period of years, because we do once a month. And I was thinking about this. The great lesson for me in holding these sessions is it's very sobering. Because I've come to understand how many things that I really don't know very much about. Because we did Turkey last time out. But that's the good thing about being the guy who asks the questions. You don't have to know very much. You surround yourself with experts. And we really have some tonight to talk about something that, I must say, I think there are a lot of people in this country who want to know more about cybersecurity and what this really means. Ellen Nakashima is the national security, one of the national security reporters at the Washington Post. Her recent writing is focused on issues relating to intelligence, technology, civil liberties. She previously served as an Asia correspondent for the Post from 2002 to 2006. She was based in Jakarta at the Post. She also covered the White House during the close of the Clinton administration and the 2000 presidential election. General James Cartwright has just retired as the number two man in the US military. He holds the Harold Brown Chair in Defense Policy Studies, served as commander of the US Strategic Command before being nominated and appointed as the eighth vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, served the nation's second highest military officer across two presidential administrations and just retired in August. He retired from the Reed Corps after over 40 years of service. General, we're pleased to have you. James Lewis over here is a senior fellow and director of technology and public policy at CSIS, where he focuses on technology, national security, and the international economy. Most recently, he was the project director for the CSIS Commission on Cyber Security for the 44th presidency. And before joining CSIS, he worked in the federal government as a Foreign Service Officer and as a member of the senior executive service. So with those introductions, I want to just start off and which of you would just like to just give us a general overview? General, maybe you should do this. What is this whole business about cyber security? What's it about? How important is it? And what are we doing about it? We could do a PhD on this. Yeah, I'm doing so. In 30 seconds. In 30 seconds here. You know, the advent of the internet and the growth of it was really invented, which we don't have very many domains that were invented. It was built by people and put together. It was an outgrowth right after Sputnik, DARPA, one of the DOD agencies, along with Stanford Research Institute and UCLA, put it together. They did the first packet between Stanford and UCLA. It was supposed to say log on. They got the L and the O and then the buffer overflowed. We kept trying anyway. And it has grown. But what has really become important, I think, in this security aspect is that a lot of our commerce, the majority of our commerce now is done across that. The majority of our financial activities are done in this environment. The majority of all of our communications now have moved to this environment. It is not a fad. It is something that is going to persist. It has been monetized in a way that has invaded all of our lives. And any place you put that much resource and that much intellectual capital is a lucrative target for people who want to do bad things. And so this is something that will be with us. It is not something that will fade away in the future. It is likely to be with us. So, Jim, what is the biggest concern? What is the thing we ought to be worried about most? Well, the thing we ought to be worried about most now is espionage, economic espionage. There is a potential for attack. And that gets a lot of attention. It's more dramatic. But we're suffering significant losses. And it's hard to put an exact dollar figure on them. From foreign competitors who are borrowing our technology and our intellectual property, terrorism doesn't really frighten me that much. Someday we'll have to worry about it. And we don't know when that day will come. Crime, a problem. But the biggest problem is espionage.  You said those who attack us need to know what the price is that they'll pay for that. Talk a little about that. And I think, in fact, you're probably referring to a blog item in which I was quoting General Cartwright. And then we were talking a little bit about it. This is Washington and this is television. I'll be further down before Jim. Just jump in there and check credit. That's all right. It was part of me. I'm getting over a cult, I hope. I thought it was a motion. It was a little bit about the debate over how best to deter or dissuade would-be attackers from coming in and stealing our intellectual property or trying to take out power grid. And some are of the view that we are building powerful offensive tools and capabilities that we are not really talking about or demonstrating in any way. So I think General Cartwright might want to elaborate on this. Joe, well, just to follow up on that, Kermit the Frog came to town. I helped light the White House Christmas tree and I interviewed Kermit. What did he say? And Kermit said, he pointed out that while he said he decided to run for president, he'd actually have to hop for president. But he said that he did want to point out that he'd been in town only one day and the stock market had gone up. And I said to him, Kermit, you figured out, Washington, take advantage of whatever good things happen. And so there you go. General, there you go. But I wanted to ask the general, though, if you do do. You have said we have to have more than a defense. In other words, we have to have an offense. And I think it's a very interesting point to talk about that. Well, I mean, from a military perspective, really, to defend only means that the attacker attacks without penalty. If it didn't work this time, we'll just do it another time. We'll try another way, whatever. But there's no penalty for attacking. And generally, we break things down into those things that violate our laws, for which we use justice, the Homeland Security and whatnot, to protect us. And then those things that rise to the level that we would call aggression and war. And you try to keep those two as far apart as you can and as recognizable as you can. And then you're trying to understand how you can say to somebody, if you attack us, there's going to be a price. If there's no price, then the attack is free. And given all the resources that's out there, whether it be intellectual capital or money, you're going to just keep trying until you get it. So the question becomes, and what Ellen and I had talked about was that you don't necessarily need to say to somebody, I'm going to shoot you between the eyes, and therefore you shouldn't do this, but I am carrying a gun. And that changes the calculus of your adversary. And so what I think we want to do as a nation is to start to think about, not necessarily what are the tools, but the fact that we have tools, that we can respond in cyber. We have other tools, not cyber, that we could respond with. There should be a set of declaratory policies so that if a server in a country is providing an attack on us, that, one, we have the right to self-defense, but we should have a declaratory policy that says, State Department, please let that country know that this is happening. They may not know it. Have them stop it. If they elect not to stop it, then we ought to have the right to go neutralize that server. No other collateral damage just neutralize that server by some means. And then we'll talk about whether it was law enforcement or whether it ought to be an act of war or any of those types of activities. But the adversary has to know that there is a price to pay. Otherwise, they're not dissuaded by anything. So you're just talking about the policy we had at the height of the Cold War, nuclear deterrence.  And these are the weapons, the missiles, the submarine, and the bombers that we have to do it. Well, not only that, but to say that if an ICBM came off of your land, then you're responsible at the end of the day. And you would like to be able to say, first, here's an opportunity for you to do something about it, and then we'll discuss it later. Don't immediately attack, unless you feel like your life is threatened. But have at least everybody understanding that we acknowledge they may not know that attack is coming from their territory. So give them the chance to act first and then to follow up if we have to with offensive action. Do we have the capability at this point to do that? We do, we do, we do. Jim, last month, the US government report pointed the finger at Russia and China as the two major sources of cyber attacks. What do you think is the best way to engage other nations in a dialogue about this? Well, we're trying to engage both the Russians and the Chinese. And it's been a little difficult because they have different views about how this thing should work. And one of their favorite lines, of course, is information is a weapon and we need to change the laws of war to take that into account. Now, that's just silliness. I suppose you could hit somebody over the head with a rolled up newspaper, maybe that's what they had in mind, but we need to have probably discussions at several levels. We're gonna need to engage at the UN like it or not. We're gonna need to engage with like-minded partners in NATO and other places. We're gonna need to engage bilaterally with the Russians and the Chinese because they are the most significant opposite numbers in this conflict. And then finally, we're gonna have to think of some way maybe to engage, maybe it's the G20, maybe it's something else with the emerging powers, with the Indians and Brazils. That's a complex diplomatic situation, but that's what's in front of us. Ellen, right now, as I understand it, the responsibilities for cyber security are really spread all across the government. You've been covering this story a long time. Is that working or should the government be doing something it's not doing in the year? Well, they're making some efforts to try to coordinate a little better. One of the more notable examples is this memorandum of agreement that the Department of Homeland Security and the DOD signed in about a year ago that would allow DOD to assist DHS if requested in helping to protect, defend the homeland and the domestic critical systems. But just how that assistance would play out and what are the rules of the road that are still evolving and there are still a lot of questions as to if you've got a real emergency, is there enough time to have the president call DHS and have DHS call DOD and meanwhile, your tax are, you hit your system and brought something down. So those are some of the questions that are still being debated and worked out. But in that report you referred to, which was 2000, December of 2008, we described federal organization for cybersecurity at that point as a fleet of well-meaning bumper cars, meaning they turned the wheel and it's better. So it is better now, whether it's good enough, I'll defer to others, but, you know. So what, you're just out of the government, General. Of, how would you describe it right now? My sense is that we're starting to move towards more coherence. The intent is all there of doing the right thing. What you would probably not want to do is go invent a bunch of new laws for this. You'd like to stay current with the current construct. So today, DHS has a responsibility of defending the United States inside the United States. DOD defends the United States from outside the United States. Independent of the technical means of doing that, the question becomes if the attack inside the United States is at scale. In other words, the power grid or something large. How long do we have to wait to go through the process? There's two ways that DOD can defend the United States internally. Defense support to civil authorities, which is normally what you see for a hurricane or a natural disaster, et cetera. And then the Insurrection Act, which we would never see, hopefully, but basically martial law. And defense support to civil authorities takes days to put in place. That's not realistic in a cyber world. So we have to try to stay inside of that construct, but then figure out how we can be more responsive. One of the ways that we're working, which goes back to the earlier question, is to start to share the common awareness of what's happening. So DOD is not starting from a standing start. In other words, they're allowed to get ready if they see a threat coming. They're allowed to tell DHS, here's what's coming. Here's what you could do about it. And then the coordination work starts at the national level about when, what organization acts at that time. But stay inside the current constitutional approach to this and then start to work with other countries. We alluded to it here earlier, but if you can start in the intelligence community with the countries that were normally aligned with the UK and Canada and Australia and come to a common set of standards and a common picture of what's happening on the networks, expand that, as was said earlier, to NATO or other organizations. If you added NATO into those few countries, that's 95% of the traffic of the world crossing those countries. And now you're starting to see what's happening. Then you can say, okay, I'm gonna try to repel it, but it's coming, DHS warn the banks if that's what we think the target is. It's starting to happen in Europe. It may happen here. And start to get in a common awareness and through that awareness, then decide how to do it. What you'll find is that the laws in each of the countries treat these activities very differently. So while we can share a picture, we can't necessarily share action. And the sooner that we start to recognize that and recognize that what is it we need to do to ensure we can be successful, we'll adjust those laws to real values rather than to talk about this in the abstract and then try to make laws and then see if they work. Well, Jim, I mean, how would you assess this right now? Are we in better shape in dealing with a cyber attack than say we were before 9-11 in dealing with a terrorist threat? Delivered by a threat. I mean, if we have an attack, we'll be holding hearings and discovering some of the things we found after 9-11. Well, so I can't take the fifth, I guess that's out. But are we adequately prepared and the answer is no. The good news is nobody's really adequately prepared. We're starting to see some European countries get their act together. But while things are better and while DHS has improved and DOD has done some really good stuff, the defense industrial-based pilot and the ESF and there's a lot of good things you can point to in the last four years. We have strategies, but basically we're still about as vulnerable as you could be. What would you say as a reporter? I would say that even as we improve our defense, offense gets better and gets better at a faster rate and offense has the advantage. It's a truism in cyberspace and offense has the advantage. So we've just got to keep trying to build those alliances, build that common operating picture and boost those defenses. But at the same time, there's also debate about just how far out to go in offense and what role offensive capabilities should play even in perhaps some self-defense. One of the questions that we came up with in our research is the militarization of cyberspace just unavoidable. Would that be a bad thing for the United States? I'd like you all three to talk about that. I think that's militarization of cyberspace is kind of shorthand for DOD being any place in cyber and acting any place independent of the geographic location or the sovereignty issues, et cetera. And we don't wanna go there. I mean, we built this country on a freedom of speech constitution and we wanna preserve those values, not lose them because of a particular technology. So the question becomes, how do you instantiate those in these technologies in a way that not only the government feels like it can protect its interests but that the man on the street believes he's been protected and is appropriately has what we in law call volunteering us. In other words, he's had a choice. He can elect to be better protected or he can elect to be at higher risk, but it's his choice. And there are ways to technically do that, but we've gotta have a little probably a little more aggressive debate in the country about the threat. If your identity's been stolen, you believe this. If it's not been stolen, which is really the majority of the country, you're not sure that there's really a threat out there. And so we haven't done a good job of really talking about that and convincing people, which is good. But we're gonna have to work our way through that because you don't wanna wait so long that you put the country at risk, but you also don't wanna throw the baby out with a bathwater and freedom of speech and other types of things. But would you all like to add to that? I've never been to a country that didn't have some sort of domestic surveillance program. So everybody, maybe the Vatican or Vanuatu or someplace like that, everybody else does some sort of cyber espionage and the question is how hard is it for them to expand it? That's 100%, let's say. This summer we did a survey, we found about 35 countries that are developing military doctrine for cyber warfare. And we know that there's five or six, six or seven that are really good, right? So when people talk about, should we militarize cyberspace, it's too late. Well, the interesting thing about cyber is it is in a way the ultimate dual use tool. It's used both for fun and just personal to send a holiday greeting to Aunt Ethel and Glendler to send some bits and bytes that might take out a nuclear centrifuge or something. And so you've got the same bits and bytes that can be used both for peaceful purposes and for military purposes. And even within the more malicious side, you can't always tell whether those are for espionage or for sabotage. So in a sense it's almost triple use. And they ride on the same networks. You don't separate out the civilian really from the military in most cases. So that throws up all kinds of challenges for the policy makers who have to decide who's in charge of making sure that the harmful bytes and bits don't harm our computers and we let the peaceful innocent ones go. Because as civilians we don't want the spies and the military in our networks, but in the military we don't want anyone else missing in our networks. And if we're spies we don't want anyone else missing in our networks. So it's part of that debate. What would a cyber attack be like? You say, General, that unless you've lost your identity or had it stolen, you don't really know that's a threat. What could happen? I'm probably the wrong person to ask about this because I think too many people believe what they see on television. Well, I hope they believe so. Yeah. I know. But today the likelihood that a nation state or any actor is going to knock down the entire electrical grid of a country is of the United States. Let's say that is very remote. And that's probably two to five years off on that kind of an attack. It's a very difficult thing to do. It is not some 19-year-old sitting at a keyboard. So today an attack in cyber is probably more about confidence. In other words, a small bank that gets knocked down still undermines the confidence of people in banking. But it's not the entire banking grid that got knocked down. In the future it may be the entire banking grid but that's probably unrealistic for today. And so as we start to look towards that eventuality, I'll go back to your nuclear equivalency, a nuclear weapon could knock out the electrical grid in any city, cyber could knock it out in the entire country in milliseconds. And so that's the worry is that it could progress in that direction and that now you are really talking about an equivalency to a weapon of mass destruction and how do we handle that and what do we do about that? That assumes that we don't do anything between now and then to prevent that happening in how we build our grids and whatnot. So you have to be careful about these. I don't wanna be the sky's falling approach on this but you can see a direction in which this threat could move that would look pretty bad. Jim, what do you see? What would you think? What would be the most likely attack on the United States if somebody decided to launch one of these things? I was really disappointed to hear the movies aren't right. I mean that's kind of, we've ruined my night. But and I understand there's a couple in the work so it'll be interesting to see if they can resist the temptation to have flying cars and burning buildings. Because I don't think that's what we'll get, right? And a lot depends on who's doing the attacking and right now it's only nation states, they're unlikely to do it unless we get into some sort of shooting match with them and then they're gonna use it against command and control. They may think about critical infrastructure but that's a big, big step. So right now we have some period of time as General Cartwright said, before less restrained individuals get this capability. And if we use this period of time to build our defenses, that would be good. The normal American practice that will be to wait for the big crisis. Where are the Iranians on this? You know, they're trying hard and they talk a good game and eventually they'll get there. It's like they're nuclear, the interesting thing to me is that both the Iranians and the North Koreans are pursuing cyber and they're also pursuing nuclear and there's gotta be some link there. And they're probably a little further behind getting cyber attack capabilities than they are from getting a nuclear weapon. The China and Russia or the two that are the farthest along on that? Well, the usual list would include a couple other countries. That would be the US, the UK, Israel, maybe France. Yeah, right. I wanna go to the questions in the audience because I know we don't have some. But as you're thinking about a question here, I wanna go back to Jim and ask you since we're on the subject of Iran, does the drone coming down in Iran, did that have anything to do with cyber? And do you think in fact that the Iranians brought down that plane? No and no. I mean if they, there's a remote chance and this is all speculation so that means I can be unconstrained, right? You know, there's a remote chance that they bumped into it somehow and were able to bring it down but it was more likely some sort of technical glitch. You know it's a solar flare, who knows, right? And the thing crashed and they found it before we did. So I don't, they don't have the most advanced military capabilities in the world. Not that they aren't good at some other stuff. You don't think they could have shot it down? No, no. Or brought it down by some other means? Well I did, I did bring up the thought wave example before, which is, you know. Maybe I'm trying to get you to say that because I know. It's just as likely, it's just as likely that. I think what Jim said and I'll let you say he was quoted somewhere else as saying. That the Iranians hacking into the drone control system was about as likely as I had told us standing on a mountaintop and using thought waves and the more I thought about it, the more I'm in the thought wave camp. Because I don't know. All right, that's a question there. There we go, right here, okay, come on. John McGaffer. Yeah, come up to the mic, John. John McGaffer from CSIS. It's a great quote. With regard to the notion of cyber security and particularly in our private sector world but also in government, can you talk to us a bit about the considerations with foreign presence on our nets like the issue of Huawei, the Chinese company. How do you think about what's involved? How do you balance that off and keep ourselves on the right path in both prosperity and security? How do you think about that? What do you do about it? Who'd like to take that? Okay. I'll tell you how I think about it. It doesn't necessarily make it right. But generally when you're looking at presenting a threat in cyber, you're looking in about three different venues. There's direct entry type of something in, send it across the net to a target area. There is the wireless, so any aperture that's out there is vulnerable to being attacked. And then there is generally what is called jumping air gaps. But moving to something that has been isolated. So you take a thumb drive or some other vehicle. And in that also is the supply chain. So what you're talking about here is supervisory networks or things like that that are built by a foreign nation could have code implanted in them. And so when you think about how to defend against something like that, we've gone through the, we'll only buy America and we will have special foundries. None of that really ever works because these networks are too pervasive. And as soon as you build a proprietary network, for instance, inside of an F-22, as soon as you start replacing the parts on the flight line, you lose control of exactly what's going in and out from that kind of detailed standpoint. So generally what you try to do is you have equal number of vectors to protect against it. So if you believe that the network may be in fact compromised, then you have potentially a parallel network, an alternative network, a different operating system that could operate on the same network, a different set of code and encryption levels that you could put in place. But you never wanna come at it with a single approach. You wanna come at it with three or four different ways to come at it. So as we start to design systems as we go forward, whether they be supervisory networks or whether they be airplanes or power plants, you wanna start to think about what would I do about supply chain intervention? What would I do about somebody coming in with a thumb drive or somebody coming in across the wires logging in to pay their bill and then at the same time attacking the network? Those kinds of things. And you start to work your way through layers of defenses and layers of offenses to go against that to ensure that what you have is actually working. Parallel networks really tend to be one of the most effective tools. You got two or three networks and you have one of them that's giving you an anomaly. You can start to change that. We do encryption changes in every few seconds in cell phones and things like that. Doing that on a regular network makes it next to impossible to hack. It really makes it be a sophisticated actor to work at that level. So never one way of attacking it. Anybody else wanna answer that? Bill Marman with the European Institute. We've talked about billions of dollars worth of military and commercial property being stolen. These are things that have already happened not in the future. And if we have this deterrent capability, why aren't we using it? And what is it, what would be involved, for instance, in General's talking about taking out our server? How do you do that? Well, there's a little button on the back. OFF doesn't stand for on for flight. I mean, there are different techniques, obviously, for taking a system out and I won't go into weapons side of the equation, but the question here about deterrence is to try to make sure that you can distinguish between those things that would be an act of war and those things that are things that ought to be handled by law enforcement. That's kind of the first step. And it's very difficult and really becomes in the eyes of the beholder whether something is sabotage and espionage and war or whether it is somebody that is just acting in a way that's inappropriate and violating a local statute, a misdemeanor type activity. I would say to you, if another country shot down one of our airplanes were knocked it out of the sky, would that be an act of war? And most people would say, well, sure, but I don't recall any time going to war over something like that, P3 in China, drone in Iran, et cetera. I recall losing a ship to North Korea and the entire crew, that was not an act of war. So it's in the eyes of the beholder. What you wanna do is set up the defenses so that it as clear as possible to all who see it and recognize it that it went by, it walks like a dog and try to get to that. We haven't done that. It's very difficult right now in the networks because they haven't changed much in the last 20 years. So everybody kinda knows how they work. It's very difficult to distinguish the 19 year old hacker from the nation state until you really look at the sophistication internal of the technical side. So we've got to start to change that and the intent would be obviously to have some networks that are relatively simple and as configured today, not much encryption, et cetera. Some networks that are more highly encrypted and protected and then those networks that are not only encrypted, but as the gentleman was alluding to, they've got a different supply chain, they've got multiple redundancies, et cetera. And start to look at how we do this so that one, we're not inviting bad guys in. We've got a risk management strategy that everybody understands. So when somebody comes after your bank account, it's much different than their ability to come after your password for Google. And so we haven't done that. We haven't done that. Most of our threats internal, most of the things that we've lost capital or intellectual capital really have to do with hygiene, hygiene on the networks. It is not a sophisticated actor. It's our own hygiene that generally is the compromise. An actor may get in, but it's probably because you've let your protections expire, they're out of date, or you just do something silly, like have your own name as your password or something like that. And so a lot of this is hygiene activity. We're gonna have to work our way through that to understand the threats. Can I just add a little note here is, you know, I think there's some general agreement that economic espionage is not something done by a nation state. It's not something that, you know, the US government is really gonna take a nation to court over. And I mean, even if they could get attribution sufficient to pass muster in a court, General Alexander likes to talk about how even you have, let's say you have what you think is sufficient attribution, but you wanna confront another country and they ask you, well, oh, okay, so what is it that you say you saw? Why don't you show it to me? And I'll go see if I can find it in my networks.  So there's else that gained loss equation in trying to confront a nation state. But recently the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers, he publicly called out China as one of the major actors of aggression and economic espionage and said they're waging a massive trade war on us all and called on US and like-minded states to band together and apply pressure, perhaps diplomatically or through economic sanctions. Now, you know, whether or not that will work, I leave it to experts better than me to say. Well, it does raise the question. Obviously security was not the first order of business when we started the internet, but looking forward, who now should set the rules on all this and who should enforce them? I'd just like to get all three of your opinions on that. One of the things we sort of dodged in the last question goes back to the issue of just how far can you push existing rules, existing laws, existing agreements into cyberspace? And I'm pretty sure the answer is off further than we've done now. So I was at a meeting a while ago where we had some US trade people there and one of them said, his opening remark in fact was, there's nothing we can do under the WTO. And I thought to myself, I didn't say it because he was an old guy and didn't wanna offend him.  There are things we can do. And so take them, you know, you don't, this isn't the international agreements or not a court of law. And if we take an overly legalistic approach, we're gonna get whacked over the head, but we can go to the UN, we can go to the WTO, we can go to the offending country and say to them, how about if you cooperate in a joint investigation and then what they're gonna say is, you know, and at that point, you know you've got something useful. So we need to start using the existing rules to push back a lot harder. Should there be some sort of a move toward, or perhaps there already is, no first use of weapons in cyber space? You follow all the literature. Well, I just, I don't see how you could enforce that.  And you can't even tell what's malicious from what's, you know, innocuous. And then it, you know, I think Russia wanted a ban on certain types of offense of cyber and the United States has consistently said, no, we won't go that way. I just don't see that as a workable. It would be very difficult, but I think if we start with a law of armed conflict, that's a good place to start that everybody recognizes. So you're not going after hospitals.  That would be an act of war and looked at by the Hague and others as a violation.  You're not going to assume that that's a blanket. But by the same token saying that if you went after these kinds of targets, the bodily harm, the harm to people who are not necessarily who you're after would be affected in such a way as to be horrible. You might find a few classes of targets that people would agree beyond the law that are kind of off the table. And we haven't had that conversation, but the European and NATO are starting to look at a set of principles by which you could operate. And that's what we don't have right now as a set of principles, guiding principles to look at and say this is inappropriate by any human standard. Okay, back to the audience here, right there. Yes, sir. Colonel. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Houston Cantwell from the National War College. So there are some very interesting trends occurring in cyberspace. If we would have had this conversation 15 years ago, it would have been a pretty short discussion on how to protect email. Because, you know, we didn't do a whole lot on the internet. Well, 15 years from now, you may say, well, every day, every year, the internet gets more and more personal. You know, 15 years ago, we had computer centers now, and then we moved to personal computers, and now we've got computers we carry around on our hips. Additionally, things like Facebook and Twitter have made the way people interact, very dependent on internet access. So as this trend continues, 15 years from now, who knows how human beings will depend on the internet to interact and save information on the cloud. What's the government's role going to be in the future as more and more people depend on this internet access? We'd like to tackle that. My sense is that one size won't fit all. In other words, government intervention in certain areas will be more and in other areas will be less, and as long as it is representative of how the people feel, you know, it'll have variability. If you look at some of the different ways that we have employed the government oversight, it's very intrusive in some cases, you thou shalt and the laws reflect that. In other cases, like for instance, banking. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about if you had a combination of civil and government, where the FDIC is an example, has some government oversight, but also has some authority, and you look at it and you say, because the sticker's on this bank, it means that I know that the standards that they're doing their cyber to are adhered to, they're audited, they're looked at by somebody, and therefore the likelihood of them being attacked versus the guy next door who has no sticker is different. So there's gonna be some combination of government strictly, government private, and then probably private only. In other words, my company and my intellectual capital has a certain worth to me, and I'm willing to put a certain amount of money against it to ensure that the protection's there. And I think you're gonna see all three. Next. All right. Thank you very much, Raghav Birgol, India, globe, and Asia today. I go back what Alan said that, I've been saying this for the last 10 years, that Chinese and Al Qaeda or terrorists based in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be challenged to the United States. And today we are facing the same problem after 10 years. Who is the most dangerous Chinese, Russians, or the terrorists based in Pakistan? And because they might get their hands on the small nuclear arms. Thank you. There's a good line here. I guess I worry more about the North Koreans because they're A, dedicated, and B, crazy.  Good idea or not, right? And they came to sort of a different conclusion. So they're the ones, Iran might fall into that category. They're the two I think are most likely to get the capability soon, and most likely to miscalculate what the cost of using it will be. Alan, what would you say? I also think that the question is, who has the, when will the actors with the capability and the motive, when will those merge? That's when we have to worry. I, you know, don't know what, if Al-Qaeda ever gets the means or in subcontract out and get a Stuxnet-like capability, then I would worry, but I'm not expert enough to know when that might happen. General. I think the two vectors that you have to worry about the most are, as the technology proliferates, then we've never, we have 100% batting average that we guess wrong on who. So, you know, you just kind of point at that. But when the technology starts to proliferate and you've got this attribute called anonymity, whether it be in bio or whether it be in cyber, when you put that together, as we make a transition between what the lethality of a nation-state today can do versus a group. When a group starts to equal a nation-state, that transition is gonna be a very dangerous time. Can I just say one thing quickly? We still don't have access today to AQ Khan, who had transport technology to all these countries, North Korea, Iran, Libya and so forth, so many countries in the Middle East. So where do we go from here now? Yeah. My sense, you know, is that we'll assume what we're going to assume about AQ Khan. The pedigree of his knowledge that was proliferated out there is starting to emerge in a lot of different places and you can see it. So now, knowing that it was AQ Khan is irrelevant really, you're more into how are we going to operate in a world where nuclear proliferation is actually on the ascendancy? Even though we are doing a lot of things to prevent it, that knowledge is just out there and it's gonna grow and it's gonna become more evident. I think there's a question, yeah, right here, yes, sir. Thank you, I'm Bruce McDonald with the United States Institute of Peace. And I wanted to ask about, throw out this idea that if you look at cyber, unlike in the nuclear case where you could use overhead satellites and all you could see what your enemy had, cyber, there's no overhead satellite or anything that could image, you know, electron or configurations in a network. And it would seem to me that has kind of a self-deterringing effect because you don't know what the other guy might have. But on the other hand, to me a fascinating dimension of cyberspace that I'd be interested in the panel's thoughts on this is what I would call even sort of going beyond espionage and what I call special operations. And to me the classic example of that would be the Stuxnet virus. It would seem to me that as long as you can keep, you know, we talk about, oh, we need better attribution. Well, that's fine for other people but attribution and some of our work is what we don't want. But it would seem like they would, there is potentially quite a future for cyber in what I would call special operations, very targeted, not big catastrophic economic attacks but where you have a very specific objective and you go in in a way and try to accomplish something that is limited but potentially very important. I wonder if our panelists have some thoughts about what I call special operations cyber. Go down the line. Bruce, is it true that the motto of the institutes of peace is peace is our profession? If you've been with someone in the organization, it doesn't matter. You know, one thing, yeah, it sounded vaguely familiar. One thing to bear in mind is that this is a difficult area to know the full range of capabilities because the part that isn't looked at, similar to satellites in some ways, is if you are collecting intelligence on a foreign opponent, you may have knowledge of their plans, intentions, and capabilities. And if you're really good at that, you have a higher chance of succeeding in attribution. And General Cartwright and I were at a meeting in August where a senior military official said that he had 100% ability to attribute. That was a bit high, I felt. But at the same time where you were at a meeting... That was at the bar. We were at a meeting in 2007 where another senior military official said it was more like one out of three. So that's like playing Russian roulette with a three-cylinder revolver, and that has a deterrent effect on the opponent. And what I think will happen over time is the ability to attribute will increase, and that will reshape some of how we do cybersecurity. You're referring to Stuxnet, which was a milestone in terms of the use of cyber as a strategic weapon. And it's clearly something that... I was at a conference on cyber and law of armed conflict in Berkeley recently. And the subject of Stuxnet came up and it was noted that Stuxnet was highly targeted, did not result in any civilian death or damage other than getting into some other computers, but you didn't shut them down or break them. And so I asked Michael Knott, former Assistant Secretary of Defense who did WMD as well. So in the end, was it a good tool if your objective is to slow down under mine Iran's nuclear weapons program? And basically said yes. So there is some, I think this is a very, it's a rich area for policy debate. It's just not one that's very easy to do because so much of it exists in the classified and covert one. General, let me just ask you, and obviously there are some things that are classified, but if push came to shove, what role, what might, what offensive action might the United States government employ in the defense of our cyber capability? If somebody attacked us, what... What kind of cyber would we use to... Yeah, what would we do? What are some of the things that we could do? What were the... If they came in, if something happened like this and somebody came in to brief the president on it and he said to you, General, so what are some of the things actually been said or doing? I don't know. But I think it's fair to say that in a limited case, in limited activities, there's a role for cyber that can be very discreet and very targeted and appropriate in its effect. Proportional, things like that. In general warfare, cyber today is probably of the class of a supporting arm. It's not going to be the main effect, but it will support other effects and enable them. And that's probably the sophistication that we have today. It's probably going to increase over time, but today it's really more in the venue of a supporting arm, like artillery or things like that. All right, well, yes, go ahead. That point gets lost a lot and it's an important one because a lot of times we try and cram the cyber issue into the nuclear mold and for that reason it doesn't, and several others, it doesn't really work. So it's a crucial point. All right, well, this has been very enlightening to me and I hope it has for you all. Thank you very much. On behalf of the CEO, thank you very much.


r that prism a lot of times can be so so undense depending on the year i forget it was 2018 prism basketball was really bad really bad all right guys i mean that's it for personals right now uh appreciate all of y'all we got tomorrow it's gonna be forest in the morning starting at 11 o'clock yeah i know the mighty muscles i like the miracle miracles is classy uh a bunch of origins tomorrow with uh forest p y t style then he's got random box style of mcdonald's all americans and gold label then you've got me with gold label uh and then gilded pristine woman's best origins all kinds of different stuff as well uh donner's choice tiered random teams uh i'm act football pick your team style even realize we had that that's pretty dope uh and then a three box mixer of 2020 21 and 22 i'm at i'm act football and honors tiered random team style as well so i will see you guys tomorrow have a good one everybody good to see you as always yeah see you later cow thanks again i will see you guys


Thanks What is up Marvel squad welcome back to our channel if you guys are new make sure to hit that subscribe button And turn on your post notifications so you always get notified when we post because we give out two shoutouts every single video one in Beginning one at the end and you can be that lucky person that gets the shout out All you got to do to show some love because we shout out so many people shout out to Jordan bow for this one because yes We are doing the driving through the McDonald's drive through. Yes, such a sim a lot of time until they recognize us We're gonna get this video going fairly quickly. We are sitting in a parking lot next to McDonald's. We're ready to go Wrap around. I don't know how many times we're gonna do hundred right try to a hundred sound good hundred times That's gonna cost around a hundred dollars a dollar a dollar a time So now is the time that we give our beginning of the video post notification shout out this shout out goes to Haley here of logs So shout out to you shout out to you. Thank you for being a part of our channel Let's just get right into this video right now.  Oh, yeah So I was you guys when we get into the first round of the drive. We will see you then All right guys, what are we ordering for the first gox? I'm pulling up to the window right now No, I say first round get something like um can I get a just a four-piece nugget? Honey mustard That'll be it thanks. All right, that's the first time we are coming around to the window Thanks, you too you are going to be seeing more of my face Is it really? He almost gave me the other person's order. Yeah, really. Hi. Thanks First round. Oh god. I'm like nervous. You're going right around All right, what are we getting now a small fry? I'm dead.  Small fine Yeah Second time go through Thanks you He knows Look at this look at this woman this woman up small fry. It's like 10 fries First look away this kid's actually kind of making me laugh. Yeah, he's definitely like he definitely knows he looked up at us again like Which is here? I was over with a lot of water I was ready to go around again Thank you This kid isn't intimidating me. I think this kid's actually making me laugh Everyone grab three fries so we can get rid of this so we can Oh do we hide the line Like it was just chill in here. Oh my god The fries at the bottom of the bag guys comment down below if you love the fries at the bottom of the bag They're supposed to be the best. All right third time out of many many more. Oh He's gonna know my voice right off the bat. Can I get one ice cream cone? Hey, can I get an ice cream cone Alright your machine is actually broken. Oh, do you have anything that goes along with dessert at all? We have pies Slushies and then we have like a frozen a slushie sounds good. What kind of pie? Apple or not. We have apple No, Apple can I get one slice of apple? Or one yeah, you know All right, and that'll be it Thanks, I forgot they're pies a little pouches They knew we were coming I wanted ice cream so bad Ready for his reaction the pie guys the sliding is actually really bad. Yeah, he's just gonna use to it Marba squad we're about to make this I just can't wait to leave us three. Did you guys already come here? Wanna wait? He's giggling guys Thanks We're stuck in traffic right at the window because he's walking away. I think he's telling a manager Hey, there's a there's kids coming through guys. He's telling a manager. I think he actually is Is he really? I think he is. He's talking to someone there.  Yeah Yeah, I hope that's not their manager Thanks Yeah, he's talking to that I saw is he I think he's talking to the manager. Yeah, is he really I think you're lying I'm not positive. Oh my god. I'm nervous to go back guys. I imagine this with ice cream though. Oh my god Oh, I should tell you the last round. Oh No, the next round are you crazy? Okay, is she crazy? No, we're going until we can't physically go any more. We're going to be running out of gas.  You're joking right now. We're gonna have to go get another one You're paying for the next one.  What do you think about it? Make double can I get a McDouble with only ketchup?  He was already laughing. He said two oh something. Two oh six.  I'm waiting. No, I hope so. That'd be actually really funny He's so innocent. He's so nice. We saw him the other time and I just totally forgot to tell him There was a video and yeah, I thought it was a busy day. He looked like he was new. Yeah, once we tell him now Whenever whenever we tell him. Yeah, we're trying to try to find it. I'm just gonna go all in the light. I Look like I'm painless. How are you ready? I Do you guys want anything else? No two oh six. Yeah I Think so, I don't know maybe we'll see we'll come back Yeah The kid did not take my money he straight stared at me before he even reached for the money and said are you sure you want anything else? I don't think so. Maybe we'll come back if we do See the aqua part is not going to him he's funny the aqua part is going to the other girl because now she's aware Older lady wasn't really aware. Oh, she know this is she was like a cute little girl She double took it all of you saw but she was like really? Yeah, oh my god This is this is about to get right now is the time in the video where you guys need to keep watching because this is where it's gonna Get a little weird.  I'm sorry. Oh, are you really? Yeah, I'm sorry No, I actually I wanted to try that slushie though What's up, can I get can I try one of those slushies? Yeah, what size? Oh Small Did you want the fruit punch of the peach definitely the fruit punch? I kind of want that in All right, thanks Wait no he got on the thing and said we are currently out of everything To it's three dollars. Oh my god No Don't do anything just act act normal Thanks Thanks you too see you later I Can't be cool. I actually can't Thanks This slushie these are new right? Yeah, these look good No, the woman went on the mic and then she then he got on there So we are currently out of everything. So who was talking on the bike before Some woman the hard part is what are we gonna get now? We're limited now.  Let's get this bread literally. Let's get this bread.  I Thank you, I Thought they were gonna take our work. I didn't think she didn't tell me the price fired Instantly fired this train whoever trained her it might be a new it might not be the kid anymore McDonald's is popping now. We got people everywhere Sun's behind the tree. We got some good lighting and coming in here The next best thing would just be like a if someone popped their shirt off Someone pop the shirt off I'm sure I'm gonna be set up right here Say his name like thanks Yeah, I'm gonna call him by the wrong name Thanks, bro Thanks, John It's He's like he's like John we're almost there. We're almost there. This is number six I'm just gonna pull up slower and slower every single time. Do you see how slow I pulled out just coast I'll get out and start pushing the yeah Do you make love in it? I'm Amic loving it guys if you make love this make freaking video make sure you leave a like and a make love and comment, okay? Thanks That that is a man is that is used to he used to work at the other one that is a man Guys, we've made contact Manager We've made contact with a manager this is this is shit's going down right now, okay? We're almost down. This is the seventh time this would be this going to be the seventh time Once we go there because we're going there again five dollars if you could fit this whole sandwich in your mouth The manager purposely stood up there.  He's trying to scare us away You know what that that fuels the fire you that makes us want to go there even more seven time Back in the last time The manager We get yelled at we are not I'm nervous too, but we are not ending this video What's up Jeff um I'm feeling a McChicken today McChicken yeah, I'm McLovin. I'm McLovin the service. Thank you very much. No problem Here's like what's up John? All right guys pulling up to the window pulling up slower now Thanks Running out running out. This is where this is what a nice week's pay goes to I'm gonna have to get a job at McDonald's at this point See ya John We made contact with the manager now is the time that we talked We're gonna meet face-to-face right now Like the boss is up on the video game. Yeah Thanks Oh Every single person in the store. No, we're coming around There's glass windows all around this place they probably saw is backing in and out of the parking spot the whole time Parfait let's get a parfait The fight the final we're gonna get a happy meal I just Wait, you got ice cream. Yeah, we got it. No, no way You are actually kidding me. That's where it got. It's a good thing. We came home. I got yes It's a good thing that we chose this McDonald's. Okay. Um, how many ice creams do it? Well, we'll be back So just one right now. All right. Can we get two ice cream cones? Okay, and I think that's all all we want for today Maybe Thanks What a freaking G dude, they got it or ice cream working. I just thought just for us. Wait, is there a cop? I'm gonna use pulling it. There's a cop on it. Wait. Oh My god, they might have called the police. I doubt that. We do think they did they might have Legally wrong though Gonna have to break out the 20s now you're running out of money I'm gonna make them go real close again. You call the cops I'm gonna ask them. Yeah, I'm gonna make them go real close Do you call the cops? No. I just want to just want to I know I honestly had no faith in ice cream today, but I guess you guys got it working now Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This really makes our day. See you soon These are good they loaded us up.  Yeah, I want my own give me one. I have my wallet in there. It's got some money. I cannot do math I like those people here You guys are awesome. You guys are really making this video. One second. The other guy wants to take your order, okay? What's his name? What's his name? His name is Cam. Oh Cam. Oh, okay. Okay. Now we now we got the digits. Now we got the digits Yeah, now you could really be on the first name basis. Yeah, that's what I'm saying at this point. Why not?  They're just confused. I'm gonna call them camcorder Hey, what up camcorder?  All right. So there are four people in this car. Um, I left out two of them We're gonna need two more ice cream cones. Okay, and that'll be it Drinking. Thank you.  That is actually One of the best things I've ever heard in my life. I'm just making their whole entire ship. You should shout this man out No, we are shouting him out. Oh, we're shouting him out. Yeah. He's all excited to see how he's doing What up cam? How's it going? Hey, we always know Cam, I know you're from school, bro Are you serious? You're in high school, right? Yeah Junior, right?  Yeah, I forgot.  No, I'm a junior. Yeah Huh down the street I actually I'm getting transferred. So I don't know I pulled them through the the high school too many times They uh, they kicked me out See you cam See you in a minute Do you know? Do you know my name? What's his exact words to give him like a five-book tip or something? We really shot. Should we? Yeah. Yeah for dealing with. Yeah, we really should. I'm actually gonna give him cam a ten dollar tip Yeah, give him something. I'm gonna give him a ten. Cam a ten dollar tip.  No way What? I don't know what that is. There's a better thing. What are you gonna think of this? Cam, wait, what? Is it gone? I'm just kidding.  Get that get that in the video like really close that thing is oh my here you take this I can't drive with this thing in my hand hold it so you don't tip it over It's like the leaning tower of peace All right guys, you should give it right now We're gonna give we're gonna go through the drive-thru and give this kid a ten dollar tip. Should we just roll up without getting in? We're not yeah, we're not gonna get anything.  That's for a cup. Yeah, it's like a big large one Have some water radio bro You have literally been the best person ever I just want to give you this ten dollar tip really quick Thank you for this ice cream cone. Thank you for making this whole thing. We are filming a youtube video Are you actually? Yeah, if you do not know yes, but do you want to be in it really quick? All right guys, this is cam. This is who we've all been hearing The best that's cam Freakin g out here. Who can us up with ice cream? I just want to say thank you, bro We have a youtube channel mariah and bill we filmed the video a couple swap. I think we were the one taking it before We filmed a couple swap video here, and I think you were the person that we did it to also Tell them what you get, tell them what you get really? Yes, yeah, it's a drive-thru swap so you'll see our channel But it's mariah and bill mariah and bill if you see it go check it out This video will be up Wednesday. Yeah, yes, so we'll see you cam. Thanks You better hurry up and put this in. I'm literally falling. Is it actually? Yes, get the cubs What a wild ride this 10 trips through mcdonald's was we went from not knowing them to knowing them on a first name basis We even got a free ice cream cone if you guys want to get a free ice cream cone go through mcdonald's 10 times and And in the beginning we were like, uh, they kind of seemed like annoyed like he was like, oh, you can't get anything I think I thought he was gonna get mad at us But I think at this point that we kept doing it doing and doing it. He spotted hilarious and no to be honest I'm kind of glad that we finally got to reconnect with him because we did trick him at the months ago But you cam deserve that 10 dollars at all of that 10 dollars. I know you probably only make like 10 dollars an hour So that's literally an extra hour to your pay and um, yeah, you totally deserve that I wish I could have gave you a 20 a 30 whatever honestly because dude you literally made the whole video So thank you so much for that Tell your co-worker. She was really funny really cool too. Yeah, um, I don't know her name But um, you know, she was really went along with the whole video It was so awesome because this video I was so nervous But then at the end it was starting to become really fun and I didn't want to actually leave like it was so fun Like I want to I want to go through again like we literally went through the drive through without even order anything We just pull right up to the window We're gonna end this video right here because guys, I don't think this could have went any better I literally don't think this could have went any better. This is like text book Jordan bow nate garter any of these youtubers that done this I want to see you try to get a freaking employee at mcdonald's to swear at you Okay, because that that was literally like Like through the money job a child's a cam for being awesome. Yeah, so that's definitely a shout out to you Shout out to you are awesome. Thank you so much. She was really surprised when he figured out We're doing the video. I also want to shout out to a girl. She was in my dms She runs a fan page called mariah underscore bill underscore fan Um, she was saying how she doesn't have enough money for our merch and she has to work Um Cleaning yards every single day after school in order to earn enough Earn enough money for our merch and that literally just hit me right in the heart I just write that today and um shout out to you you literally deserve everything that's coming for you in your life You're the nicest girl in the world. Thank you for supporting us. Yeah, thank you And thank you for everyone else that supports us. We do not miss you guys There's just so many we try to shout all of you guys out. We will get to you Don't worry. Make sure you get this video a big thumbs up I would try to give this a 10k for cam because he was really awesome Honestly, if we could get this as many likes as we can get I would love this just for the fact of how amazing this video All around was yeah, we'll see you guys in the next video, but until then until then peace


We'll give it until five after and to see if we have any enough folks joining. To continue today is today a holiday somewhere. Today's national clean your virtual desktop day so. My desktop's pretty clean I have a new computer. I haven't messed it up yet. Last couple of months. It's also where something got the day so. Where someone got it all right yeah. Also national past that day. They have lots of holidays or people are listening listening national payback a friend day. Someone probably had a lot of friends to go to payback. That's an interesting day. You know you borrowed. $5 for lunch 20 years ago, you need to pay me back. What. Remember that time I gave you a drive to Whole Foods when we're at Unward Nation. Yeah, Taylor. I need to give you a ride now. Yeah, I want to go to Whole Foods and get some food. Come pick me up. Let's see is there any full request. Let's go through the set. Take a quick look at things. All right. No pull request. Same issues. Thomas was out today. So probably. Nothing new on this one. There's no new issues and no new discussions. Let me see if there's anything new on. I think the director had. Multi interface. That's too bad. This would be a venture. I wonder if it seems like it overlaps some of the stuff I'm seeing with Net Fire. And some of those folks have been involved with the working group and best practice and talk to music. Get them to take a look. Send it off to someone. And I guess that's it. So we. Can stop early today. There is not going to be a working group next week because of. Kubecon. The end of telco day. So it'll be two weeks. Before the next working group. The 31st. Just Halloween. And I believe either Tom or Victor will be leading back. So. Last I heard that plan to continue, but we won't. We're at least canceling next week's because of. A day in Kubecon. All right. Well, in the call here. Thanks everyone. 45 minutes or so. Yeah. I'll set. Kubecon, hopefully.


Thank you, Martina. Yeah, it's interesting just hearing Suzanne talk about the origins of Backstage. My first experience with Open Source Backstage was back in April 2020. It had just been open sourced in March, the month before. I'd seen the videos that Spotify had produced of the internal version of Backstage, and I was so excited to try it. And so I went straight to GitHub, had 3,000 stars, cloned it to my laptop, ran it, and I got a welcome screen and nothing else. It was quite a confusing experience. But this community has obviously come around from that kind of humble beginning, and I think it's a testament to the vision that Spotify put forward, and the way that Backstage has resonated with the community. We've needed something like this for so long, and we're all, you know, you can see the momentum that's behind it, and it's resulted in this, and it's just amazing to be here, it's a privilege. I want to give a lot of credit to Spotify for that. I think they've done an excellent job of managing the community, marketing the tool, you know, working with all of you and helping you get value from it so that we get to be here today. I'm David. I'm the founder of Rode. We do SaaS Backstage with Tech Insights. And I have a belief that the last 15 years have brought about great strides in engineering effectiveness. We've had things like the cloud, Kubernetes, serverless, more ergonomic programming languages, faster builds, better version control, CI CD, microservices, so many amazing tools. But these tools have come at some cost, and the cost in my mind has been fragmentation. So deploying great code is now easier than ever, but discovering it again is more difficult than it's ever been. So my hope is that the next 15 years are going to be about defragmentation. We're going to make it easier for people to find the amazing things that they're building inside their companies. Great code only matters if people know that it exists. The Backstage Software Catalog makes it easy for teams to find the tools that other people are building inside their companies and get value from them instead of reinventing the wheel. Great code only matters if people know how to use it. TechDocs helps people to learn how to use the tools that other people are building. It's easier to keep documentation updated, it's easier to find it, and it's easier to get value from it. Great code only matters if it fits into your production environment. The Scaffolder lets organizations take best templates with the best practices of their organization to them, give them to teams so that they can get started with creating new things more quickly, and those things will run in a more operable way in the production environments. Great code only matters if other functions inside your organization, like security and compliance, can work with the teams who produce it to ensure that it's secure, that it's production ready, and that it's compliant. Tech Insights helps teams do this with Backstage. In my experience as a developer, I was happiest when people were able to actually use the things that my team created and get value from them. Today, I hope you're going to hear stories of how engineering organizations are making the rest of their teams happier and more productive by using Backstage. That's certainly our mission at Rode, and let's celebrate dev teams who are making it easier to work better together. Thank you.


Returning from the jewel pits and angered at Tarzan's indifference to her repeated advances, Atea, White Queen of Torr, tells Jeanette Burton that when Mungo has killed the ape-man in the public arena, she, Jeanette, will become the Yellow Chief's mate. Wontae and Mungo have selected from the pits slaves those to be sacrificed in the Feast of Pantu games. From Wontae, Tarzan and O'Rourke learn of Jeanette's impending fate and also of Darno and Oucar's final escape from the Torrion patrol. In the jungle, the elephant upon which Darno and Oucar are mounted, joins a stampede of wild elephants. Oucar eventually succeeds in working their frightened mount out of the herd and bringing it to a stop beside a water hole. As they lie stretched on the ground resting, the elephant runs off, leaving them once more afoot and still far from Rattor. In the distance, coming swiftly toward them, they discover a mounted patrol. Quickly, they make for a vine-draped photo-carpistry as the patrol nears the water hole. Quick, Darno! To the broad limb just above your head. The leaves will screen us. Oh, thank you, Le Bon Dieu. It is still too dark for them to see clearly. Eh, voila! This limb will hold us both. They will remain at the water hole until daybreak, then probably try to pick up our trail. It is already growing light over there in the east. But how could they have followed this to this spot and so quickly? It may be that they came down the river by accident, heard the stampede or saw signs of it and believing that we followed the elephants to cover our own track. But here they come. Listen, wait. Run for it! Gods of Rattor! Rattori! Oucar ninger shan! Winder mani! Moon Jew guy, have you gone mad?  Come, Darno. It is my father, the shan of Rattor. Oh, bravo, Le Bon Dieu. Que le bon shan. Ah, que ca! A longa ninga! A longa! Aftar! I, the gods of Rattor, my father, we mistook you for Torians. Make haste, Darno. May moon view, I am coming as fast as I can. Ah, you caro mani. Ah, yora tako nangrok. A longa ningo. I am glad to see you, my father. This is Paul Darno, my good friend. Extend to him the hand of friendship and speak in the tongue of the Anglos. Welcome, Paul Darno. Christ, welcome is the friend of the son I have long since counted among the dead. Oh, vous êtes bienvenue, monsieur. You and your patrol are the welcome ones, sir. We heard you coming and thought it was the Torian patrol from which we escaped last night. It is fortunate that we came this way, my son, in our hunt for elephants. We crossed the spore of a stampeding herd but a short distance from here and came to this place to await daybreak before taking up the chase. And that was probably the same herd we were with, Oka? Yes, Darno. After escaping from the Torians' father, our elephant joined a stampede and ran with them to this spot. When we dismounted to rest, he ran off. But how did you manage to escape from Tor with an elephant? Through a friend. The elephant we found in the Torian jungle stockade last night. The patrol followed us to the Nuniki River where they lost us. And you, my son, have been prisoner of the Torians these months, they thought you were dead? Yes, as a slave in the Torian jewel fits. Two attacks on Tor have I led and twice have our warriors been repulsed at the very gates. The city of Tor is impregnable. Yet another attack must be made at once, my father. Before the Torians celebrate the Feast of Pantu. The Feast of Pantu? Impossible. Only five days in which to gather our armies and return to the attack, it cannot be done, my son. I have given my word, father. Then you must keep it. To whom have you given the word? To him who made it possible for us to escape from that evil city. To Tarzan of the Apes. A mighty warrior and killer of beasts who has twice saved my life. He with two worthy companions will die during the Feast of Pantu unless we save them. Then there is no time to be lost. We ride at once for Rator. Toon Ratori. Andaka Rator. Uka, my son. And this time we will enter the city of Tor somehow. But, Uka has forgotten to tell you, Monsieur Lechon, that if we arrive in time, Tarzan will see to it that the main gates are open for us. Then, Paudano, may their vile gods protect them. The patrol is ready, my father. Come then. Uka Ratori. Andaka. In the early morning sunlight, the city of Tor lies glittering in the jungle. The first burning rays spill long blue shadows across the toiling sweat-covered backs of the jewel pit slaves. Tarzanador Ork, the latter wearing around his neck the golden collar of a chosen lion slave, discussed the escape of Darno and Uka and the unhappy fate of waiting Jeanette. Yes, Tarzan. If our plan with the slaves fail, you'll have to bait that big yellow hulk to death. You're thinking about Jeanette, my friend. And why shouldn't I? If we fail here and you have to fight Mungo, and he kills you, her lot will be worse than death. And yours, O'Rourke, the lion pit. Oh, I'm not thinking about myself. Tis Jeanette I'm worrying about. Why not wait until it's time to worry? If our plans work out, I doubt if it will ever come to a fight between Mungo and me, at least not in the arena. But without the Lieutenant and Uka and the Ratorians, we can't hope to capture the city even with all the slaves at our backs. I, them, too, only makes it. There are still four or five days before the games, my friend. Anything can happen in that time. Why do you suppose Wong came back to tell us... What about Jeanette, he mean? Rubbing it in, he was. A slant-eyed head and knew that telling me what her tears fixed up for Jeanette would hurt. And me, helpless to do nothing but steal here in me own juice. Ah, bad ses to the chink, says I. But why did he tell us about Dono and Uka escaping? Why did he do that? If I never was good at riddles. But whatever his object, he can gamble there's dirty me in the back of it. I won't. Yes, will you look at them, too, they're bringing in. Don't we know the big fellow? Lutang, chief of elephant men. In chains they are. And be gory, both were in the golden collar. Now, what the devil can that mean, do you think? No, no, no, no, no, Lutang. Te oro calda toro.  Well, if there's any consolation to him, he won't be here long with that golden collar around his neck. They're in our group, O'Rourke. What do you make of them? Sure, and I don't know. But by the looks he's given us, he's none too friendly he'll be. Holy Saint Patrick, Tarzan, do ye men at tear may have put him here as a spy? Perhaps. But I doubt a bear could attest to Lutang now, since Don Juanuka escaped while they were in his charge. Escape from the elephant paddock ye men. Ah, I see. For letting them to run out from under his nose, a tear slaps him in chains and fades him to her lions. He's chained next to you. Talk to him when you get the chance. Find out if you can why he's here. Here. Lutang. At the low-voiced call, the erstwhile chief of elephant men turns smoldering, hate-filled eyes upon O'Rourke. He moves close. Suddenly, without warning, he leaps straight at the Irishman. His great hands encircle O'Rourke's neck and bear him gasping, choking to the ground. In the palace, Artea has returned to her chamber from an early conference in the Great Audience Hall, where, with her chiefs and nobles, she has completed the final arrangement for the feast upon two games. She calls for Tanya, her favorite mute slave, and Jeanette Burton. While they remove her ceremonial robes, she talks eagerly of the coming celebration. The games will be entertaining. There will be racing, wrestling, and many death combats. Mungo is very anxious to meet the mighty Tarzan. And there will be many slaves for the lion pit. It should be interesting. It should be very interesting. To watch the man you profess to love being killed by a savage brute. But my dear, your Tarzan is very strong.  Remember how easily he vanquished Tongo, chief of the clawmen? But Mungo is much stronger than Tarzan, and so very much bigger. Yet he claimed the ancient right of Thor on Mungo and challenged him to combat.  Oh, listen, Artea, it isn't Tarzan that I love. I swear it isn't. Then why does he wish to leave Thor and me to go with you? It isn't that he wants to leave Thor, not with me. It's because he has given his word to see us to safety. Oh, believe me, Artea, that's the truth. Perhaps I do believe you, Jeanette Burton, now. But if it is not Tarzan, who? Paul Dano? No. No, it's Terence O'Rourke. O'Rourke? The red-haired one? Then, my dear, you shall see your lover fight in the arena with... Terri? In the arena? With whom? That you will see for yourself. I shall not spoil your surprise by telling you now. But by the word of Artea, Queen of Thor, the High Priestess of Pantu, if the red-haired won't be victorious in his combat, you shall have him. But Artea, tell me. No. Later you shall see for yourself. And now I wish to decide on the jewels I am the wealthy gains. We shall visit my jewel, Cavern. Oh, what is it you say, Jeanette Burton? Did you not hear me? Why, I... Yes, I heard. You shall go at once before my noon day rest. The key is here in this little castle. Now I... Pantu, the key to the jewel cave. It is gone. Gone? Why, how could it? Perhaps you must place it. Have you opened this casket, Jeanette Burton? After my telling you never to touch it? I haven't been in this room since you called Tanya and me this morning before the audience. Then someone has stolen it. Tanya, calling the women. All of them. They shall be searched. And you, Jeanette Burton...


ns on the um education tax collection there's a motion suggested for you any questions for Eric excuse me there is a motion suggested move to approve the correction of the 2021 grand list as proposed by the listers is there a second a second sorry discussion on the motion what's in favor of the motion say hi hi hi any opposed all right moving on to personnel policy update for domestic partner insurance coverage and truly so I'm going to start with just a little history to what this is all about and how it became a thing so in 2009 all right maybe 2000 Vermont passes the civil union law and in 2009 Vermont passes the same sex marriage um but the Vermont rules don't necessarily follow what the internal revenue code allows in terms of what your dependence your legal dependence are so um this um so between the civil unions but this domestic partner rules um the federal government also does not recognize under federal law a domestic partner to be the equivalent of a spouse um so that creates and that gets back to they're not um under the internal revenue code they're not legal tax dependence so it creates tax consequences both to the employees and to the employee earth so what that means is if i take myself as a married individual who is claimed by my husband so when i um apply for health insurance to the town i get a pre-tax deduction for my share of the premium um that same thing is not true with a domestic partner there's a way you have to do a calculation to value that benefit um and then it is considered imputed income which means just goes in the payroll system it's this amount out there that is subject to federal and state taxes both income and payroll taxes um so um some of the rules around domestic partners is that number one we have to have a policy in writing about in a written policy to cover domestic partner so we have it in the personnel policies that says domestic partners are are covered but we don't have any of the policy that goes with that so that's where this comes in um and the other piece um is that it has to be in our summary plan description and our plan documents but for MVP we are considered a small group and they do not address the domestic partner issue so the towns or people who get coverage under the um the small group policies have to do our own policy and procedure around domestic partners so hence um we we have a different form so what we have been doing is having them complete the form and affidavit saying they're a domestic partner but we weren't doing any of the tax piece so this is really getting us in line with what the internal revenue code requires us to do um so um it is a little odd because you are asking someone to certify that if you are domestic partners whether you can take them as a dependent on your tax return if they can answer the ask that question then they're tax like any other individual or family or um spouses who have an insurance plan if not then this imputed income calculation is derived and that's again like i said it's added to their income it's not cash they get it's just a dollar amount out there so that the right amount of federal taxes can be withheld and somebody's payroll yeah interesting isn't it yeah so this this um you know i'm not above stealing so i i did just that because the state's policy was great and then eric had it run by legal um i have been working with sally sally mckenzie from pickawkin boardman on this in terms of our open enrollment um statement is as well and had her review through it as well so this also has sally's blessing and she's just a wealth of information and a great resource for the town so my request is that we we do have some individuals who fall under this domestic or who are domestic partners and we are in open enrollment for f y 22 so we really do need to have a policy in place so assuming that you are good with this policy you will adopt it um i should say an amendment an appendix to our personnel policy in those words right as an appendix to our personnel policy so that we are covered we have covered ourselves under what the IRS requires for policies around domestic partnerships so any questions for surely mine this is just a in the interest of us being a town that that's promoting diversity and equity and inclusivity it's actually just a language kind of question um in in under um the the tentacles and the policy on coverage and so forth uh multiple times it refers to partners of the same or opposite sex or refers to his or hers um i'm just wondering about the the feasibility of changing some of the language to include potential for you know non-binary folks or people that that have alternate pronouns um so just something to you know we could do that Julie the only question i have is there anything about this that you haven't explained that i should know any liability or anything like that i can't see that but our liability right now is that we're not treating it right it's kind of what i figured okay yep perfect any other questions emotional has been suggested move to approve an addendum to the town's personnel policy concerning domestic partner coverage offered through the town's health and dental insurance plans i'm sorry very discussion of the motion proving it's been preclude changing that language or changing the the pronouns want to make sure i think that'd be an administrative thing that she okay good yep here we no other discussion all those in favor of the motion say i i may oppose uh moving on the collective barring agreement with the police union that we discussed in uh executive session not sure that there's much more to say about that tonight but there is a motion i'll move to approve a new collective barring agreement with the new england police and everyone association local 409 and authorize the town manager to sign the agreement on behalf now zero second second discussion of the motion all those in favor of the motion say i i i be opposed all right managers report let's see how quick i can do it here this is getting late i didn't have many items in my written reports um as i mentioned during my my budget presentation the local option tax reports included um with the agenda for for your review there um and we did have a very high order last quarter um my recrossing open last friday i drove over it in friday night so i'm excitedly took my wife there's i did it for a ride over there so i made you go that way yeah um but just hats off all the work then and all the people involved in that project to make it fall right on our schedule here so a job well done um same on uh same regards to lamp light first told me it's uh one of the best projects has ever been involved with for how it was managed for the contractor and everyone involved so um another other big project we undertook this year and our noise monitoring station is operational um you can go on that website and see the data from williston now um it's pretty neat to look at to check out the other day and then a reminder our meeting next week we have a 6 p.m start time for the budget would be next next tuesday that's all i have to see in the other business we have a catering permit do it's for a just came in the other day somewhere bear with me a moment here we go it's for um it's from mill river brewing company um for a company holiday party i know it says near dry let me look at a 320 tire near drive um there would be 35 people attending from 2 to 5 p.m on 17 with the bar service and food service for this holiday party seemingly it's not not anything outside or for a large concern staff any questions i'm looking for a motion so moved second second i said uh any uh discussion on the motion follows in favor of the motion say hi hi any post any other business to bring forward tonight very none thank you for persevering anyways had a long meeting but the fact productive meeting tonight and thank you all and we are adjourned


Alright guys what is up I just thought I'd come out here onto my balcony to have a little chat man I'm taking a break I don't know what the title of this video is going to be it's not going to be fitness related not nutrition related although I have been killing it on the diet I've got to say and I will be showing you the results in the following video but we're about three weeks into the diet about two and a half weeks and things are going good but the one thing I want to tell you guys is that I'm taking a break I'm taking a break from Alice Springs I'm taking a break from work I know I just went down to Melbourne but I need another one and it's it's going to serve as a bit of a it's just going to break up the year for me to be honest you know living in Alice Springs living so remote you need to take holidays you need to get out of the place and my my flatmate who you know I get along with real well we've never been on holiday together in fact you know I haven't been away on holiday with mates for a while now so he had planned a trip to Thailand so yes that's right guys we're going back to Thailand he planned a trip to Thailand with his brother his brother's mate from England he knows a couple of people in Thailand so there's going to be like five or six of them and I was going to be left here for two weeks moping around feeling depressed as fuck thinking why did I not just book some flights and get over there and worry about shit when I get back and and so one night smoked a few joints went online went on Skyscanner found $800 flights from Alice Springs to Thailand return and booked it and so I'm going so it's yeah it's it's fucking exciting to be honest today is Tuesday and we leave on Friday so there's not there's not a lot of time I've probably booked the flights about two weeks ago but I didn't I didn't tell you guys didn't say anything in fact I wasn't fully committed until now so yeah heading to Thailand again so that should be good I'm not going for the lady boys I'm not going for the prostitute so I'm not going for the happy endings but I am going to drink copious amounts of alcohol try and keep my training up and just have a fucking mint time with the lads and you know I just can't wait to be honest can't wait thank god I don't have to wait too long like I just booked the flights three two weeks ago and we're going in a few days so it was it was a last minute decision but I was able to get the leave from work which I'm appreciative of although what I will say is that half the reason why I'm doing it is because work has just become an absolute headache it's it's so stressful at the moment everyone is is getting at you from you know from management above management it's just it seems all the good work that I've put in in the past you know can be completely disregarded if you do one thing wrong at the moment that is the attitude that's come through the workplace and you know it's put people under pressure it's made people feel like they're they're they're walking on eggshells all the time and it's not a good environment right now man you know it's it's just not I still had my good times at work but they're few and far between and and it seems it just seems the the attitudes changed and you know I want to get away from that I personally have had my workplace performance questioned after working there for four years and it's like where the hell has this come from man it makes you feel it makes you feel unappreciated unappreciated and it doesn't make you want to you know work it really just doesn't make you want to go to work to be honest but you know I'm there for the clients I am there for the clients 100 percent that's what I've told work you know there's a lot of backstabbing shit like that going on at the moment it's a government department so you know there is politics involved people want to get above other people thankfully I'm in a position where no one can really do that to me but you know people have been backstabbing people left right and center and I want no part of it so hopefully in two weeks when I come back from holiday everything will be uh back to normal but I do doubt it but um this video was just to let you guys know the plan over the next couple of days it will have been three weeks worth of dieting so I will be doing a video showing you guys what what my macros and diets being like um I'll also do a weigh-in and then the following day I'll be doing a physique update and that'll be just before I leave for Thailand so we'll do a do a physique update you guys can see how we're how we've shaped up I've certainly lost weight I'm certainly leaner uh happy about that so it's all good whilst I'm in Thailand who knows what nutrition and training is going to be like honestly I don't know uh every time I go away I tend to I tend to keep training as as you know just like normal but this time there's definitely going to be a lot of drinking involved we're going just at the end of the sock cram or song cram uh water festival which is the celebration of the Thai new year so that starts on this what sorry that starts on the Friday we get there on the Saturday and it keeps going for like a week it's like a massive festival so we're getting into Bangkok first of all staying one night there going to Pattaya which I've never been to before but it's it's party central so we're going there for four nights then we're going to Phuket going on a three-day island tour going back to Phuket for a night going back to Pattaya for two nights back to Bangkok and then back to Alice Springs so that is the trip cannot fucking wait I'll take the camera I'll show you guys a few things over there but for now um I'm just going to chill out I've got my last day off before I go it's Tuesday like I said work Wednesday work Thursday leave Friday can't wait I'll see you guys tomorrow to talk about how the diet's been going in the meantime have a great day peace


If you just made a sinful mistake, here's what you need to do within the hour. Right about now, you may be feeling distant from God. Sometimes, the shame you feel after committing a sinful mistake can cause you to avoid prayer and the word. This is why you can't rely on your emotions, live by truth, not by feelings. Number one, you need to repent and renounce. Repent means to change your mind, come into agreement with God about your wrongdoing. Then, renounce. Turn from that sin, forsake it. Number two, you need to ask the Lord to forgive you. Number three, once you have turned from your sin and asked God's forgiveness, you need to believe He's forgiven you. Now, this is often the most difficult part, especially since the fillings of shame might take time to decrease. Number four, find accountability. Reach out to one or two godly friends. Accountability only works in proportion to your openness and honesty. Send them a text right now.


water cooking channel this is Darren and today we're gonna do something a little special something I haven't cooked in a long time I'm gonna do a boneless leg of lamb I'm gonna have my older son and his fiance over for dinner tomorrow night after church and I thought I'd make something special and since I haven't cooked it this I haven't cooked lamb at all on my channel yet I thought I would go ahead and do that head and season this with my beef rub which is kosher salt coarse black pepper and garlic powder so that's what we're gonna sous vide it up we're gonna season it up well before we put it in the sous vide bag we're gonna bag this up in the vacuum sealer and throw it in for 20 hours and the I got a lot of the bag and I'm glad that this one is a hope like I hoped actually came and it's already trussed up it's already got the butchers twine already keeping holding it together as a roast so I don't have to worry about trussing it up so that's a good thing so what I'm gonna do now is just go ahead and put my rub on just put a nice generous coat and we're probably gonna have to put a little bit more on after it comes out of the bath and I don't I always season before I sous vide there's people out there that you know condemn it I love seasoning in the bag I've never had any issues with it I think it uniformly seasons the meat even if it you are seasoning the purge great because it season the meat all around so I go ahead I got this all seasoned up I'm gonna throw it in the vacuum bag then we're gonna toss it in the sous vide for 20 hours and I'll see you guys tomorrow it's been in there right a little over 20 hours and there is a lot of purge in that bag which is okay with me and I did what I did I cut the temp down I told I think I said 138 but I did 134 for 20 hours so I'm gonna what I'm gonna do now let's go ahead and take it out of the bag I'm not gonna save the juices because I'm not gonna make any kind of gravy for it today I'm just gonna go ahead and dump the purge juices out today but normally you can make like a good gravy out of that and I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is actually season it up instead of just with the beef rub the salt pepper and garlic I'm gonna do a little lemon pepper on it to add a little little lemony flavor to it so alright guys I'm gonna go ahead and get this out of the bag season it up this smells we're gonna get pretty good already so I'm gonna go ahead and put just a little bit more of this beef rub on there I did dry it off really well padded it dry the paper towels because we are gonna sear this and I'm gonna sear it on my acorn junior Kamado grill because we're gonna be able to get that up screaming hot and all sides I'm gonna put a little bit of the run a while down here come on now there we go run and while down there lemon pepper and this is all still all trussed up I'll leave the truss on there when we sear it and when we sear it we're just gonna do it for really quick just enough to crispen up the skin that nice Mayard Mayard effect on there that's it guys we are done and now I'm gonna get that grill going and good so I actually hit it with the sears all for a little it's pretty good I'm gonna go ahead and give it a cut oh part right here good that pretty tender I got my son Craig here he's gonna take it come on Craig you can have a bite take a bite yeah what's it taste like yeah it's a good tender gee thanks I paid him to say that take another piece mmm all right all right I'm gonna go ahead and cut this up eat it up for dinner try this recipe out guys it's not very hard it's pretty easy actually and we're gonna go ahead and eat dinner but like this video subscribe follow us on Facebook follow us on Instagram and we'll see you in the next video you guys are fighting between nice lamb look at that take half of that thank you


Studying Romeo and Juliet. Here's how you can analyse that for scene 3. The scene opens in Juliet's bedroom. She turns to the nurse and asks her to be left alone for the night. Lady Capulet comes in and asks Juliet a series of questions. We can see that she's really excited to help Juliet prepare for her wedding. However Juliet doesn't share this excitement. Juliet speaks using alliteration to ask her mother if she can be left to spend the night alone in peace. The stage direction shows that both Lady Capulet, Juliet's mother and the nurse leave her to herself. Completely alone in her bedroom we can see that Juliet is very nervous. She speaks in this islametry sentence as well as this iambic pentameter to show that she's scared of taking this potion. Juliet looks at the potion and asks this rhetorical question basically wondering what happens if it doesn't work and it backfires. We can see for the first time that Juliet is really terrified about taking the potion.  Juliet speaks using alliteration to reassure herself that Friar Lawrence does not have any bad intentions for her. Juliet's mind is filled with doubts and she asks this rhetorical question. In other words she's wondering what will happen to her if she wakes up in the Capulet tomb before Romeo comes to fetch her. She seems really terrified about this. She then speaks using this metaphor to state that if she were to wake up in the graveyard she would literally see Tybalt's body which is still fresh from dying so recently. However she ultimately decides to drink this potion. She drinks it in the hope that she'll fall asleep and Romeo will wake her up and they will run away to Mantua.