Cleveland. We hit it off great. It was a lovely, a lovely year. Good morning everyone. Morning Judy, how you doing? Good. Sun's out in Minnesota, so I'm happy it's been rainy all week. That's awesome. Yay, Gabrielle. We've got an infinity loop in the room. I love that. Hey, oh there I am. Sorry. Yeah, nice to see you all. Yeah, this is great. Bentley, Hank. This is great. Let's wait another minute for a couple more people to show up and then we can dive into a really quick round of check-ins. In the meantime, if you want to use the chat just to put a word in that has been bouncing around in your head lately, and it could be about anything, just a word. Oh, that's a good word. Let's see, we're on the run with him already. That is weird. I've been vibed with systems thinking. Yeah, that works. Sleep is good. Yeah, yeah. It's early on the left coast here, so up early. Yeah. A whole new world. Yeah, it's weird. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had in OGM about what role we might play in helping everybody sort their way to better solutions for all the things that are broken. I think school is a great one. And as a now, again, round two, find I'd have two girls at home and figuring that out and figuring out it as an inclusive community, not as micropods of wealthy families. That was interesting, wasn't it? Yeah, that's so important. We're talking about that here in Minnesota too, and trying to develop sort of dendritic groups of learning and ways for children to interact with other children, occasionally with an adult in the room and all that kind of stuff. I hope it's going to turn out to be a rejuvenation of real technology change. Well, we're doing summer mystery history with a group of between three and five kids depending who shows up and me and one sweet teacher who is a friend of a friend who shows up to try and realign their sense of how to interact with each other and learn while having fun. Awesome. Sounds like a great objective. So if you ever want to join a mystery history, we have a we're skipping next week because everybody's not available, but you can join the one about Cleopatra in two weeks. That sounds good. That's awesome. So, you know, send me an email if you or your kid wants to join and I'll add you to the list. It's very unstructured. Let me just I've never played mystery history. I've never. Nancy, could you just send out your email because I'm not sure where I would find it. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. So it's just an unstructured sort of conversation so the kids could teach whatever. Kids pick a theme. We started putting together for the Hope Diamond, we did a mural timeline and they researched and they had to put their sources in there and then we usually had a, you know, is it a curse or is it not a curse? Am I on team curse or team non-curse and they gave their ideas and brainstormed. Nice. This week it's on the uses of microfiber. Sweet. And the next one is going to be on Cleopatra. Wow. So they're also really interested in, you know, interesting female figures. But we have a meeting on Monday to kick it off and then a meeting on Thursday to wrap it up. That is awesome. Let us go around. I'm going to send, I'm going to put a link to my that might be good for you or them or whatever, if they're interested. There we go. Paste the link. Women who should be on the currency. Oh, that'll be a good one for them. I'm going to forward this to her right now. There's also a thought in my brain called badass women, but I think that might be like inappropriate, but it's not.  That doesn't sound good at all.  Thank you very much. Yeah. You know, words are so problematic. Anyway, let's do a real quick go around just to check in. And then we can dive into our topic. I'm sitting here in not that sunny Portland. It's a little overcast. Weather's really nice right now. You know, perfect going out, but we're supposed to hit some highs in a couple of days that will be, will tell us that it's actually summer. Portland is apparently alive with protests. We haven't gone out into them yet, but we're about to and see what's up because bad things are happening. Yeah, exactly. Be careful. Yeah, exactly. And we're going to be careful sort of as we approach things. Also, if I can ask everybody to mute unless you're checking in, that'll help us with echoly stuff like that. And I'm just going to go across how I see my my grid view here. So how about Nancy Hank Anthony? You, if you'll check in, yeah, just to check in and you're muted there. I'm going to do a mind check in. Awesome. Really? Over to Hank. That was awesome. Yeah, I mean, you know, just going well. That's that's the check in that I'll get today. Sounds great. Thanks, Anthony. In Cleveland. I'm sorry. What do you ask about Jerry? Just checking in. Where are you in the world and how are things with you this day? I'm retired and developing my my strength is an integrated system system thinking from an integrated conceptual standpoint. That's kind of a missing element in it. It's widely disparate concepts that nobody can tie together. So when my retirement, I'm developing used to be something called STEM science technology, engineering and math for teaching kids. I was developing a STEM program, which is now on hold to teach using a simple business case. One person operation and ties together all the system thinking concepts. And that's the overall framework in which you talk about mind maps where we tie together all the different things with an overall framework that presents that that ties trying to teach kids integrated systems thinking. I get tongue tight. I'm sorry. That's great. And no reason why your project needs to come to a halt because lockdown and because schools are in jeopardy that would be really interesting to put in the world in some other way, perhaps. So Yeah, there's blogs and websites. I realize yeah. Yeah. So that's super, super interesting. We make you might find some more interested parties in that in that here. Then let's go Kurt, Pete, Gabrielle, we are sorry about that. I was on I was on mute. I am currently in Jersey City. Things are calm except for the fact that we had a blinding lightning storm last night. And the your audio and your video are cranky on us. Oh, shoot. Currently, the last around 20 plus my video for a second. Yeah, hold on. Thanks. Yeah, so I was just saying that I am a serial entrepreneur in this for the past 20 years and in on the tech side of things. And most recently, I've been working on well, I've been working on helping minority and women founders start companies. That plus a couple of other big ideas, like trying to figure out a metric, a universal metric for impact for how we define impact. Some small ideas like launching, I just launched a virtual summer camp for kids. Awesome. That's totally cool. Thank you, Kurt. Thanks for joining us. Pete, then Gabrielle, then Judy. Hi. In beautiful San Diego, it's going to be a gorgeous day today, like usually. I'm thinking about group federation, federating groups and decentralized directories of people and things. Matt and I had a great call together earlier this week talking about all kinds of cool stuff. So I'm buzzing a little bit about that, but I need to write more, I guess. So I want to jump into the email a little bit more. That's great. Thank you. Gabrielle. Hey, everybody. I'm coming to you from Porto, northern Portugal, where it's been gorgeous today. It's a bit foggy, which is strange. And there are actually a lot of Portlandians. There's a whole Portland's coming to Porto group, which a friend started. And so all the Americans at lunch today were like, glad we're in Portugal. It's kind of, yeah, a great place to do the pandemic. And what am I thinking about today? I'm thinking about how I can get my book actually written. I write a huge amount of stuff and actually trying to get it done. I tell people how to do this in real life, but getting it done myself, that's my this week's challenge. I love that. And one of the things that's keeping me from doing a task like that is that I much prefer woven things than linear text. And to me, the multimedia woven trans media experience is like the thing I want to manifest and a book would be a snapshot of a point in time of that. And it's kind of a necessary artifact in today's world. And I can't find the time for the snapshot, I think, as is happening to you. And Judy, could you just step in back down? Just grabbing a tablet. Judy, then Ken, then Charles, then Hadi. Judy, I'm in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Gorgeous sunny day with sky that's blue, which we've been mostly gray for a week. So that's wonderful. I've been working with an arts group that I'm on the board for with social consciousness and how to bring art and creativity to children in shutdowns. And fascinating to try to figure out the group dynamics of it and to also try to engage the younger cohort in art. That's fabulous. Thank you, Ken. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you might be. I'm Ken Homer. I'm in Centerfell, California, where the marine layer is in. It's a pretty cool morning out here, but I'm still outside because I try to live outside as much as I can in the summertime. Right now, I'm thinking, I saw an amazing movie last night, and it's kind of a topical thing. I'm thinking, a movie we saw was called The Last Black Man in San Francisco, which I highly recommend visually. Everything about this film is incredible. It just, it works on so many levels. And watching the Black Lives Matter protests and I've been reading a lot about white fragility. And I just, I've got an audible account because I'm staying so much in lines these days. So I've been listening to books. I just listened to James Baldwin's The Fire Next Time. And my mind is really like, Oh my God, this is just, he nails so many things. It's so powerful. So I'm in kind of a deconstructing my, my self phase around how is my participation in racist culture showing up, you know, how can I be much more aware of what's going on? And, and I don't know, there's something now about political correctness of not saying you're an ally.  But I just, I want to become more effective in this conversation. So I'm in the opening end of the funnel with all kinds of things pouring in. And so just if you want something really interesting, and I also watched 13th last week. So I'm just trying to educate myself on what's going on before I try to make any moves. And so that's one of the things that was poured in. And I'm so impressed with this film. It's just stayed with me all night. I woke up, I'm still on my mind. So check that out. Thank you. And what one of the most important things I think OGM, this group could do is work on that topic and figure out how to be useful, how to be helpful. And in particular, how to change racist minds or how to soften their minds enough that they might contemplate the possibility of changing their minds or whatever the whatever they purchase exactly. Thank you. Charles Hadid and Warren. Hey, everyone. Greetings from Zurich, Switzerland. We've been having a summer summery weather, sort of threatening rain, clouds, not much rain, just a bit stuffy, but but pleasant. It's also a decent place to do the pandemic, as that's an interesting phrase, do the pandemic. But without going into all that, I'm buzzing from a call late last night with Tom Atley, Rosa Supertoretta, Kaliya Identity Woman, and Andy Pace are talking about Polis. But actually, then we kind of really went into facilitation, dynamic facilitation. And after all of that, the takeaway is we have still a kind of invitation that Tom does not want to organize, but we have his still new unpublished models of collective sense making, sort of ecosystem of collective sense making. And, and there's kind of clear specific ways that he sees Polis and other tools fitting into different parts of the model. We didn't actually look at the visuals last night. But I think that's fascinating. And it's just, it could either just not happen and get kind of swept in the winds, or we could we whoever can come in and do something. I also had a wonderful call with Lauren and Yon, who's here just earlier, about a bunch of new KikoLab goodies, which maybe she'll mention, but we're starting a new Monday call thing. And I think that's enough for me for now. Thanks, glad to be here. That's awesome, Charles. And I'm very curious about the Tom Atley effort you just talked about. So we'll bring that back into the conversation. Hi, guys, Hari from Bangalore in South India. Good to see all of you and really happy to be on this call. So my current state of mind is very confused. But I am trying to be present with it because I think it's just part of the process of, you know, like figuring out what to do next, because I'm kind of going through a personal pivot. And the immediate stuff which is kind of confusing me is how to get funding for sustainability and sustainable development in this context, which we're in right now. And what's interesting is that it's actually, you know, getting funding for that kind of stuff has been really hard for all the jobs I've worked in. And I actually want to study how to finance the transition to a sustainable society as a thing in itself, because it's not just about getting the money, it's about changing the way the system works from many different angles. And I've been reading Al Gore's work, for example, where he has a new way of thinking about these things. And, you know, I've also been reading some. So that's where I am, you know, like just about to, yeah. Yeah, that's me. Thank you, Hari. That's really, really interesting. Lauren Bentley than Jay. And Lauren, if you can check in on how last Monday's call went and what's up with that too? Well, I was super happy with it. And I think it will wind up being bananas. And I'm going to be kind of increasing the kind of diversity and stuff like that. So let me just give you a background for the people who are in here. So I've started a call that kind of feeds into OGM, where we're working on practical collective intelligence, where we just kind of throw down and see if we can find out like practical methodology, low tech, that we can actually, that, you know, basically build frameworks that people can make fancier with technology. And so we're starting, so we're doing a weekly call on Mondays at 9pm CET, which is 3pm Eastern time for the States. And we're doing kind of relevant social political discussions for the next month. It's going to be race. And so getting together a super diverse group of people to talk about memes and how we can develop powerful memes and deliver them. And what's the kind of framework for doing so in the methodology. So it's combining kind of collective intelligence with social issues. And so yeah, we're bringing up some stuff. It should be, yeah, it's already super interesting. Sounds like it. Sounds like it. Thank you. Anything else you want to check in with? Good. Okay. Anything else? Good. Bentley, Jay, Neil and Matt. Hi, Bentley. I'm really tired today, so I might actually turn off my video in case I want to lay my head down. Don't want you to think I've passed out. I am excited to work on three projects right now. My job right now is just prototyping ideas to save the world. So doing one on mass agreement, doing one on interweaving text with images and auxiliary information, large text like books and multiple book sets. And then the third project is helping people get feedback on short snippets of text. Collaborating on that. Like, you know, a response I might give to this person on Facebook or stuff like that. So yeah, so I'm interested to see what we'll do today. Well, I've not been a part of it. I think it's called the MCO community, the photo community online. But I understand it's really useful in improving people's photography, just by analogy. And there might be some interesting dynamics to learn from that. And of course, many other communities that do these kinds of things. Jay. Hi, everybody. My name is Jay Golden. I'm calling in from Ashland, Oregon, where it's been super hot in the day, but nicely in the morning, it's kind of cool. So I'm appreciating that. I think it's sometimes hard to track all the different pieces. But I think the core of what I'm doing is, as a storytelling coach and storyteller world is trying to help people to kind of gather their lives and the insights of their lives based on those critical essential stories that illuminate our purpose and who we are in the world. And working with that, and a kind of bottom up way to cultivate a bottom up mythology. So one that starts with our individual lives and builds up into something that's kind of more distilled that illuminates our lives, but also connects us with other people that are on similar paths of change and transformation. And how does that inform greater stories that can guide us into a viable future that we co-create? So I'd say that's kind of the that brings me to the meta. But the the essence is how do stories work? What do we mean by story? How do they inform change on our individual lives and collective? That is awesome. And I'll point out that OGM feels very geeky probably because there's lots of talk of tools and visualizations and a lot of its stimulus comes from my use of the brain for 22 years and wanting to move to some other distributed collective intelligence kind of platform. And yet and yet a huge piece of what needs to happen here is about stories has little to do with technology, is about human interaction, is about bridging the cultural divide, is about trust and vulnerability and people sort of softening up and getting together and trying to figure out how to make our world better. So that conversation is actually really essential and I want to figure out how to how to nourish it and where to go. Neil, then Matt and then we're out of the check-in round. Thanks Jay. Hi everybody. This is only my second time here. Forgive me for not having caught up with emails and things. Personally I probably know best in the group although I do know a few from Facebook posts is Ken Homer who we have regular pun sparring matches. I moved from Australia that was on fire to Belgium in January. I currently am watering about 20 rows of vegetables on a small garden for about an hour and a half every evening. So I know how dry it is in Belgium when it shouldn't be. The groundwater tables are depleting, the rainfall isn't coming and we've got a 40 year old organic vegetable garden here. Nobody else on the street has one and I know how hard it is to keep this one alive. I'm in the process of setting up an initiative business for one of the better word called and now what which is looking at transdisciplinary integration, weaving, using my poetry and my pictures as one of the engagement mechanisms for vertical who's conscious enough to see this stuff for the beauty, goodness and truth in it and then how do we then work with my friend and partner now Ann who is a psychologist and we're looking at how do we hold space for grief, hold space for change, transformative change, vulnerability, authenticity, trust and now what is the name of the initiative. So I'm here today feeling very privileged to be white living on a farm in a beautiful place at this time gorgeous weather. I'm also feeling very very worried for all those people that aren't and where they're at and my heart is out to those in America having to put up with the crap you guys going through at the moment. So thank you very much. I forgot to unmute myself. Matt and then did I forget anybody but Matt go ahead. Oh yeah as as Peter mentioned I've been having a bunch of one-on-ones with various people on these calls just to get to know folks better so that's been really delightful. I'm from an OGM standpoint I'm working with Andres and a wonderful young designer on his team and a designer on our team to think about how to brand OGM and branding is really not really what's important here it's just it's just trying to I know there was a logo put out on the boards and those sorts of things and what we've really come up with is this idea that we're all living in Plato's cave in a kind of a white dome and what we want to do is to cut a window into that that sort of entices people to to come to the other side and so that's kind of where we're going with some of the design aesthetics there so expect to see more on that in the coming weeks and then the other thing that may connect to some of the things that people are talking about you know Jay maybe what you're talking about in Neil some of the things that you mentioned is I'm working with a really good friend of mine who is the CEO of one of the largest financial services company in Canada and he's just recently and please sort of keep this you know again inside of this this wonderful bubble that we've created but he's suffering from early onset Alzheimer's and has invited me into a process to work with him on some story-threading not only about his own life and who he is and who he's become but also what he has participated in in terms of crafting what is the modern financial services system and starting to document maybe his dreams and imagination for what it could become as a form of legacy making so I'd be interested in collaborating with some people to think about how we approach a situation like that not just for his benefit but also as a way of capturing and creating narrative that can be world-changing so Jay expect me to follow up Neil expect me to follow up after this on that project very cool thanks Matt did we miss anybody quick out of everybody on the check-in there are a couple of interesting kind of issues that are bubbling up on the list and the list traffic is leading to one issue which is like how do we manage this traffic right and how do we not overwhelm how do we not scare people away how do we have fruitful discussions and where do they go and my and then how many places are we talking in and so forth because Charles has nicely started the telegram group but I'm not sure you know what the what the heart of that discussion is relative to this discussion and how they all fit and it would be really nice to and I'm revamping the the very simple OGM website to include Andres's graphic as a as a banner and would love to have a page there that's sort of a table of contents or a directory to where the conversations are because my instinct on this is a little bit that when when a topic when a conversation gets really frothy and gets really interesting to find a place for it to basically say where should this conversation be held can just someone else want to host it should it be held on reddit or stack exchange or someplace if it's if it's a technique techie geeky conversation should it head toward a platform like that or or whatever and then can we have a common place where we have not just sort of pointers to those conversations but ideally a status at a glance of what is the hot topic right now what have we just done a little bit of a history of the conversation so that we can find our way and weave our way across these conversations because having if the open global mind covers lots and lots of things it covers lots of topics and lots of disciplines and lots of creative things and if we hold all those conversations on the same mailing list we're all going to like freak out because we'll never get to the end of our of our email every day and when when lockdown started it feels to me I don't have I didn't track numbers but it feels to me like my email volume just doubled and it also feels like a lot of it was important and interesting i'm having a i'm having in lockdown and in pandemic and in uh in what i'm calling meltdown which is sort of lockdown plus everything else happening um an experience that was similar to the run up to the iraq war where until the day bush launched the war there was this efflorescence of fabulous essays of people really like thinking deeply about what is a just war and the justifications for war and all that and and I just I was just riveted by the the stream of things going by and then the day the war happened that went away that that whole flow of brilliance just went away and suddenly we were at war and bush was a wartime president and everything kind of changed and it's as if we stopped tending that garden right um so so now we're in a similar moment except we're way down the shoots on the intro tubes and what the inner tubes can do for good and bad because now I think we're much more awakened to the idea that this is like a stalker economy and that some of the platforms are harming us as much as they're helping us but I think we have an opportunity to model how as like many of you said in your check-ins how to make the world better by harnessing all this stuff so I think that there's that kind of piece and one of the things that OGM can do here is sort of model it and then build out the parts that are missing if there's if there's aspects that we think are missing so let me just go quiet for a second that that's kind of that's a piece of my own approach to how can we sort of hold different conversations well and blend them in a way that's kind of functional and fruitful and all additional uh ideas are completely welcome Judy uh you need to unmute unmute yourself because we are not hearing your I thought you were reaching for your mute button I'm interested in in how we harness the collective intelligence notion in a multi-generational way and maybe tie it in with something that Susan said in another call about seven generation thinking of Native Americans and how that could influence all of our stories and all of the groups that we form so that we might be able to get a whole cobweb of inter-social discourse going with people in different disparate age groups but also across the age group boundaries to try to lead toward this generational thought change that we've talked about before and just a tiny idea on the front Matt talked about a friend of his who's got early onset Alzheimer's and how we might build a legacy for him schools are broken education is kind of broken one really interesting thing kids could do if directed toward the tools and the methods to do it a little bit is talk to their elders and download their stories and investigate their histories and go piece together the larger stories of what these are and then riff on them with their elders in ways that that sort of join them on different kinds of crafts or arts or whatever else I think that eight things that were said during our check-in would fit really really nicely into what how kids and you know and it's really funny when you skip a generation because you know grandkids and grandparents are like a tight bond and the grandparents don't feel like they're responsible for the grandkids all the time and the grandkids like this is not the older person that's always telling me no so there's like a special a special relationship there do you want to add to that Judy well I just wanted to add that the connection of that to blue zones because all of the blue zones have a multi-generational capacity that the typical current society doesn't have and with the virtual all families are blue zones are high longevity zones you know where they've studied cultures where people typically 110 okinawa is a blue zone etc there's some places on the west coast too but it all has to do with multi-generational valuation in a sense of the people and the connectivity that evolves from that and I think we could really do something powerful with that in an internet zoom zone because now all the grandparents are talking to all of their kids with zoom and we're even before the pandemic they're just doing it more frequently now and so there's a huge opportunity for multi-generational impact other thoughts on on the same topic just a quick one i'm just picking up on that point that the respect that parents sorry the respect that children have for their parents is increased when they see their peers respecting their parents and so the capacity to demonstrate through wit or humor or poetry or pictures or something cool to the kids that may be rebelling within the household can be shifted when they see that others of their own generation get it so i'd be keen to see how we can bring and this is why i like Ken stuff around the puns you know these are multi-generational transdisciplinary you know crazy stuff and i play with that and when you can play with that and show your acuity with that you you do get some respect in the same way that rap shifted poetry that and so i think that there's some really good opportunities here if we can work out how do we bring young people into a group like this to allow them to see the great stuff we're trying to do which then generates the respect to go back around the cycle because i've got young people in australia in their 20s who are probably better philosophical thinkers and certainly 50 years ahead of me at their age in terms of consciousness who are crying out for elders and i had to leave and so how do we create this multi-dimensional web of people that have the capacity to hold space and the experience to know what not to do and those coming through with the new enthusiasm ready to take the reins if they could avoid making the same mistakes if they had somebody that they trusted to tell them don't do it that way and just to elaborate on what i was saying a moment ago the obvious path is sort of like story core is like hey grandpa grandma tell your story and we'll record it and maybe do something on top of that and that totally like golden but there's an opportunity here to break a lot of taboos like many many many families when lots of parts of the family get together have this let's not talk politics and religion at the table kind of policy they're they're busy avoiding really important issues in our lives and i think there's an opportunity here to sort of download debrief listen gently and dive into belief systems and where do we get this and why wait what and kids ask the most brutal questions like kids don't have their filters installed yet that's what socialization does and it breaks our actual common sense a lot so i think that process might be super interesting and might be generative for people shifting their points of view and so forth harry thanks i'm just reminded of something one of my friends told me about and she's in media she's in sweden so maybe it's already factored in for what you're you've been discussing but she said there's a way to make you know communication and discourse instead of making it like linear like an arrow to make it into a circle and she said if you know you you have a community which is generating content or generating stories and then consuming it themselves and then generating more insights and so on and so forth and you could think of it as a kind of a living lab maybe but that's just one way of looking at it and the basic idea is that things start flowing in circles and you can do this with new media and with with apps and things like that so just thought i'd share that thank you even just the notion of circles is really cool jay yeah so i've been dreaming up this idea of kind of there's two paths one is the the person that is facing a challenge and a kind of organic method of drawing out what that challenge is and then the other hand is the people that have experienced and kind of gone through the challenge and they're delivered in particular in stories that are intended to be retained and retold uh or at least you know there's a little shaping support but that could be on the side but i think there's a vast such a vast well of knowledge and there's a question of how do you create an invitation for it you know what's the gathering mechanism or refinement mechanism and what's the delivery mechanism but i think it's kind of a perfect collaborative kind of wisdom tool it'd be fun to work on absolutely neil just adding to that my understanding of indigenous stories in australia and the songlines these are deeply ingrained story trails through real natural ecological systems that they've been walking for 65 to 45 000 years depending on where you want to draw the line when they talk and educate they talk in systems context and the closest i can imagine is the the minister in a church coming in and you know speaking to a verse in the bible that speaks to something that happened politically that week in this case they're walking through a system they're watching it in real time they're seeing the current climate or the current uh you know change in season they're describing stories that are generations old and they make sense because they're actually in the sense making mode and they're actually in those systems so if we can become the neo-indigenous and how we bring these stories to life in sufficient systems context they're not dated by next week and show that this is deep indigenous wisdom connected to consciousness connected to science connected to current politics connected to trends and this is why it matters then we've got an education system the songlines are really hard for non-aborigines to understand for lots of different reasons i'm reading sand talk right now which is helping giving me an angle on it um one of the things that songlines include is um sort of property rights access rights privileges that they include like rules of how things work around this bend and toward that rock that used to be the lizard that created the world things like that are just embedded in the stories that are repeated and told um so it's probably just worth probably worth adding one quick thing there Jerry the the honoring uh country uh when you come into another person's country and you honor the fact that we're we're on uh you know Nungambara land is to say that while we are here we respect that you are the knowledge holders because you are the systems agents the systems architects and the systems understanders and meaning makers for this place we have generic stories which we now apply to how the creator and creator spirits created these landscapes but you have the detailed understanding and while we're here we will honor your taboos we will honor your governance rules you know within our generic universal set of governance rules and that's my understanding of how this works so the language map was a systems map and the systems map was related to real social ecological systems and so the respect when you walked across that boundary was because your survival and their survival and the environment survival depended on you all respecting each other in that place and that that is beautiful what are the challenges we have these days of course is uh multiple waves of immigration loss of cultural history loss of connection with country and now diaspora living in units rather than anywhere near land and completely cut off from the mechanisms of science and or observation and so how do we bring that deep connection back unless we can actually tap into some of these deeper stories do we do we know if these song lines evolved over time or were they established and then sort of held again i'm not an expert on this but i'll have a shot my understanding is that there are stories for example of sea level rise in australia and because the sea was rising covering about 100 meters horizontally each year around the great barrier reef region for example so there are stories about lands that are now underwater so we know that there are old stories which relate back to creation times and things that have been observed over deep time from our perspective deep time you know 40 60 000 years at the same time i imagine that as i said before like a minister preaching to the converted but from an old text but in current systems context and there's another component here which is that there was a vertical integration of the teaching process but it was a different level of knowledge custodian to whom the question was referred so you advanced in your education by asking the right question not knowing the right answer so a youngster could be telling the story but they're telling it around a campfire with the elders and the youngsters and the oral history is kept true by having to respect the old story in front of the elders and get it right and so it was a deep connection to historical truth as in the word or in the beginning there was the story and systems context and i'm sure that would be tweaked over time to take account of shifts in the system by smart more conscious operators as a tiny example in sam talk tyson talks about a young aboriginal boy who memorized pi to some 200 or 300 digits because he was gifted in math and memory but his act of doing that showed the elders that he was ready to sort of receive the next level of whatever it was they had to give him so so there was this this conversation set of interactions that led to increased learning judy i just wanted to jump on the deep questioning aspect across multi-generational thinking and i'd like to think actually we could bring the parents in in the middle so that people see situations from different viewpoints because that's another wisdom piece of re-examining something in your history or re-envisioning the future from different viewpoints but just this is such an exciting topic i'm just kind of going crazy and it's really really topical like you know the the naming of monuments and streets and schools and everything else after confederate generals for example is a hot issue right this minute and it's going to be a divisive issue in the electoral cycle and i think it's a super interesting thing to peel apart than to look at from these sorts of perspectives other thoughts on this question uh uh who's jumping in uh anthony then harry then hank and anthony just stepped away so harry it's your turn okay uh so uh this is a bit of uh like uh taking off from judy's question uh but i just thought i would put it out because it's kind of interesting um so the question basically is the way of producing knowledge right or making sense in a context where you have a community with an intergenerational sort of uh members right what is uh like common to the that process in when you try and make sense and create contextual knowledge uh when you have a community which doesn't have that intergenerational thing basically uh where i'm coming from is what is the process of uh you know like how do you create knowledge using context and of course judy's asking in terms of the intergenerational thing but i'm also interested in other community contexts for example uh in participatory democracy for example and so on and so forth so so i thought i'd put the question in as a question love that one of my questions is why is democracy different from education different from our dinnertime conversations different from all these things why are these somehow weirdly separate activities right and if we're kind of doing this right we're always nourishing uh this this thing in common and we're expressing our opinions and making better decisions and improving things and borrowing from other cultures to test and try different things so how does that work uh hank yeah so um yeah i think this this kind of piece of the conversation has has has uh has some like parallels with some things that i've been thinking about i was recently reading i think he was in a well a philosopher with the last name mack entire i don't remember his first name right now but basically what was was talking about how it has been become some of the dialogue in the past a couple decades has become apparent that there are values within the old you know paradigms and value systems that are outdated or not true or not fair right and that therefore those old value systems have instead of being recontextualized to some of the points that you guys are making have been thrown out with the wash and that what we needed and that the fact that we never went back and reformed them to kind of tell the stories in in our language right uh that that is at the part of what's at the root of a lot of the issues that have been going on now right um yes yes uh yeah yeah that guy um thanks neil i thought you might know um so it just interesting because one of the things that has kind of been in my thought is like is could one of the functions of this of this group be to rekindle that conversation right um because it sounds like we're we're circling around these topics and little little little gravity points at different at different points so i hope that adds to the conversation but that's just kind of my maybe that's just my late check in that's awesome uh judy go ahead you're muted again my capacity to contribute might be uh diminished shortly or greatly amplified or enhanced i'm not it would be interesting it would be wonderful if we could take this topic to the next level of deep thinking as we continue the dialogue and get lots of little different experiments going in terms of the different communities that we're in on multi-generational and longer term thinking because i think we've got a nugget of wisdom that we could pursue and and because i've been gardening this mind map for 22 years i'm just aching to have a conversations like these with anyone else who's curating a body of work in some way like like i just want to smush what i've crafted against other people's crafted ideas expressed in any form at all like like i am just dying for that so i'm wondering what do those experiments look like if we encourage people to come in and map link connect and you know we're sharing a whole bunch of really interesting links in the chat here on the side i'm gonna the ones that are not already in my brain i'm going to curate into my brain but but it's just me and my brain it's kind of lonely in there susan stuckey brought some of this up in another conversation i was in and i think she'd be another person to really loop into that degrading growth that you're talking about jerry agreed nancy you want to talk about smushification well no i i hear you i'll see you i hear you um i feel so so heard and validated and so that there's the end so there's those who think in the you know the kind of finding and seeking and connecting and and and and then and how does that work and then on the periphery there's a bunch of us who dip in and out and use that and do it we're not particularly either adept or interested in this part of it because that's not how our brains or lives or contexts suggest but we're we tell let me go try that let me bring this back let me go try this and bring this back and and for me just listening to this conversation i'm trying to imagine what that looks like in practice so um because because i i i keep on getting filled up here and i need to go back and try this okay i can't keep filled up without trying so this kind of goes back to your question about where the conversations happen so my perception at this point is this conversation is for the the smushification of not just different structures that are capturing but also the those little you know the ants that are the bees that are whatever metaphor you want to use that are going out and in and then like you know right now there was enough people here who said something about how do we change education by changing what we do this fall when schools are are not in face to face i want to go off with that group and go do something i want to do it tomorrow because i have to and i'm willing to commit to bringing it back into the smushification hive um so so i i i'm struggling to to visualize this and i keep on getting stuck on my short headphone cord love that so you just triggered a bunch of things i'm going to try to say really quickly first scrolling back a little bit i've changed my zoom name in a way that i was asked to do when i joined us a multiple conversations with uh native americans so you know i'm on multnomal lands here in portland and it was a really nice thing and ken did the same on me walk lands and do it if you want to but but i think that a piece of ritual we could start including in uh in ogm things since we have these weird unique multinational multi time zone zoom calls is to to honor where we are in some way and to and to bring that into the thing um second i think of my my favorite i use a lot of eco analogies to talk about ogm and one of my favorites is that we are leaf cutter ants and i've said this before but leaf cutter ants don't eat leaves they can't digest leaves they bring the leaves into the nest where a subset of those ants mulches them up with spit puts them on a large fungus which they are symbiotic with and this fungus's health is really important so it's really cool if you take a microscope and you look at the back of the little ants that are at the at the face of the fungus they're coated in white powder that powder is a bacterial it's an antifungal antibacterial it's to protect the fungus that they're all growing so there's all these colonies of different sorts of things that are working together and if we do our job right it's like wikipedia participation in that a few people gardening curating in different tools get used by everybody else so when i'm when i'm in front of an audience i ask it who's who has touched the wikipedia in the last month in any way at all you visited a page you read something and everybody like 99 percent of the people hold their hands up and then i say who has made a change in the wikipedia and almost nobody holds their hands up if i'm lucky one or two people will um and that's great that's a that's a perfectly fine participation balance because everybody else got the benefits of that work right so i so i don't i don't think we all need to be out mind mapping i think a bunch of us need to be out grabbing a piece of the map going out and doing something with it and then bringing back what back what worked and what didn't work so that the mappers curators whatever we call these roles later on can make the map better and and turn things around so that they're just more useful to everybody outside and then tell those stories so that anybody who's browsing by can filter into the story and just see how that how that all works and then the last thing i wrote to remind myself i own the domain learn with a three in it and dot com was taken so i got dot net so learn dot net has a couple things on it you'll see um it's a google site which means it's super easy for me to give somebody access to go riff on it and i haven't done anything with it during lockdown and it was one of my nancy like moments where i wanted to go damn i should just grab learn dot net find a couple people who are interested in fleshing it out for how do we change education how do we how do we build scaffolding for self self-directed education in the middle of this pandemic and so we have at least that site and probably some more um as well if we want to go use them sorry that was a whole bunch of things at once uh neil just picking up on what nancy said loved it and thanks jerry for your recap um the challenge i think is that there's a group like this and looking at the demographic and you know no no insults intended um how do we become attractive right and so what does the strange attractor look like and that's the reason i'm playing with the poetry and the pictures to say you've got you came here looking for pictures or you came here looking for poetry but you've been surprised to also find uh you know this and this and this and so that's one element secondly uh in analogies we're playing with the crow's nest analogy the crow's nest on on the ship you're not directing the ship but you're warning the ship about the reefs that you can see from a higher perspective and you're showing where you think is the best path but you can't actually steer the ship from there so you need context based leadership crews that can do various bits and pieces and the third part of this is sort of islands of sanity you know what does an island of sanity look like in a sea of destruction um and what is what does a virtual island of sanity look like we're a group like this comes together within our bubble to discuss things at a high level and what does it look like when we go and try all that on the ground as nancy was saying and every rural town can be an island of sanity with a different model and nature works that way it's the pre adaptation to impending environmental change which makes it more sustainable than the alternatives it's not necessarily just adaptation to the change as it happens so how do we diversify the range of options and how does somebody at the crow's nest say well let's send a scout boat out that way one that way one that way and one that way and this is this is the provisions we'll give to this one this one this one how do we monitor that and then it comes back to that link that i think harry was talking about the exercise the insights the feedback loop the improvement of the brain you know so we'll get a better map better map better map but not everybody has to see the whole map all right and not everybody has to see all the inner workings of how the map is generated but they do need to trust the elders who are holding the map or the people that are out scouting to come back with honest information to improve the map and that's how we improve maps i just want to sell to go into silence for just a moment to absorb what you just said yeah because it was beautiful and it triggered lots of things for many of us so let's just hold back a second just jump back into them please go ahead oh no it's the same height i had to run off and see if i had to go but i didn't so i came back are you guys having another call we were just having a little moment of silence um meal meal had said something really interesting that that's hilarious but i was just about to bring us out and i was about to add a side note i love the navigation i mean the the Polynesian navigators that pete put in the chat the all of these metaphors or work just really they're full of energy and vitality i think for our conversation a tiny thing there's a book i think by john keegan about the age of sale um and he at the very beginning of the book he talks about how like everything was made of wood and smelled like wood and it pitched tar was how you sealed the wood uh ropes you know uh all these sorts of things and you could sail forever you you didn't need to refuel because you had wind you needed to stop and get some fresh water and food and whatever you need to resupply but you could just keep going forever um and uh then there's a different book about lifeboats where the the knowledge of navigation was key until the steamship and then after the steamship arrives because a steamship's like a like a bus on the water you can drive at any place um the average sail the average person on board knows much less about the currents and uh and the winds uh and therefore shipwrecks are much more dangerous so if you're in trouble before the steamship kind of anybody knew oh we you know i know we just passed an island we should not try to get to that island we should just sit on the current and keep going because down that away three days is is landfall and we'll never make it to the island if we try but nobody knew that afterward so so there's like knowledge and there's the technology change and all these things that I think are are super interesting in in our process as we do this we have reached the top of one hour and these calls are intended officially to be an hour long so we don't go too long I hang out afterwards so feel free to stay in but do not have any qualms about dropping out to go uh to a different meeting and uh Ken thank you Neil drink some more beer um one of the things that you that you touched uh a bunch of sparks in my mind when you're speaking there was about eldering um so you know a lot of people think that that eldering comes automatically with gray hair and it doesn't and a lot of people think you have to have gray hair or no hair a lot of people think you have to have gray hair in order to be an elder and that it doesn't I look at um uh Greta Thunberg as an example of an elder I mean this is you know bucky four used to say you have to respect your children because they're your elders in universe time they've soaked more up before they came into the world right and so a really interesting question for me is how do we recognize and honor our elders at in every generation from the youngest to the oldest I think that would be a really fun thing to explore here um and I I once heard a uh I was at a conference and um national geographic uh woman who works for national geographic uh who studied the Polynesian um sailors was talking about not just their ability to navigate but um she was on board a ship with this uh very old man who was going back to an island and the seas were really rough and he chanted them down so that three days later when they arrived the they could actually dock because the the waters have been too rough that's another lost piece of our um ability to be in contact with nature that there are people out there who know how to actually chant down the water and calm it down and likewise she told the story of women have growing up in Hawaii of these these older Hawaiian women who would with their long skirts wander out into the water singing and the fish would come to them and they would just lift their skirt up and pull the fish out of the water and you know we think this is fantasy stuff but it is very real these were people who were so in touch with the the world that they had uh they spoke a language that has been lost to us so you know I'm really interested in in that kind of stuff too because I I don't believe this is fantasy I really think this is true so and the my my sad view of history and human history is that we systematically went around the world and crushed this kind of wisdom and called the heresy and tried to stamp it out into the ground salt the earth and make sure that it never rose again and through a lot of struggle cultures managed to keep a lot of that wisdom alive and we're at a moment now where we can go respect it and and we're at this really weird moment in no GM's conversation where um how do we use techno tools which is a lot of our fascination to appropriately approach cultures that are much richer than techno tools that express themselves in different ways that have understandings that are embedded in language culture ritual and place and earth which we don't have here we've got zoom but little rectangles of zoom were trapped in like the partridge family or hollywood squares um exactly I feel like we should all do like a zoom cover where we try to push out of our boxes so how do we do that well I think is a is a an important question for us to ponder who would like to jump in matt I think I want to I think I want to come back to maybe an earlier question and Nancy you took a you took a run at this as well which is just to name that Thursday's calls are an opportunity for us to just you know share connect see what sparks in any one of us um and then it's our I think our almost in in from the anarchist handbook you you almost need to say hey I'm going to go here and who wants to join me and if people show up they show up um and then we we also then need the mechanisms for bringing back bringing back or documenting and and cycling back some of these you know some of these things and I've been really impressed with sort of the energy and the expansion of this group I mean the number of new people on this call today for me that I haven't seen are you know it's almost half right um and I think that's great and um but I do think we need to establish in some ways just like the song line some meta some meta rules some meta philosophies that allow us to not just stay at this altitude of conversation but but to start to to build this neo-indigenousness that we maybe are talking about right um as well as tapping into kind of these older older song song language and so um I don't know if we can all commit to just acknowledging what this call is so that we don't get frustrated with it that we start to acknowledge what what the um sort of the um the listserv is and we don't get frustrated with it so because I think until we until we name these things what we're going to find are people move in and out of these conversations and they either you know gain momentum or lose interest and I think we need to we need to start to put some of the requisite structures in place and maybe that's a room in and of itself right um is is sort of starting to propose and name those you know name those things so that this memory doesn't get lost right it doesn't just we get recorded and end up on some you know some ether right um so those are that's where I'm at right now I'd like to riff on that because it's essentially what Lauren did already with the one group and a lot of this fits with what Lauren and I've been talking about as well but I think we have the chance to be sort of dendritic spark points for lots of different thoughts and if we can figure out how to capture that and share that wisdom engage more people it becomes a ground swell of knowledge and information and community which is exactly where I'd like to see this call so I don't know how we address the challenges but find me up so partly I think ecology is a good metaphor here and we've been talking about ecological things but in some sense we're kind of following the energy gradient as I put in the chat by which I mean finding where anything has energy with us so clearly likes anything around education during lockdown and rethinking education and there were a bunch of sparks flying in the conversation when we talked about that awesome somebody say and then I put in the chat a little bit earlier let's make a movie which I think was let's put on a show which is what Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland would say and half of their movies they shot together and which would then turn to a mini musical or something in the middle of a movie which is very entertaining when you're in the Great Depression but but is also a really nice instinct like okay great somebody has an idea I'm going to go the invite of I'm going to go do acts would anybody like to join is something I'd love to see you know floated on the on the OGM list and then then to go follow the gradient into the where there's energy and find communities that could use these things or a project that we're working on that could use this kind of energy and then bring sort of a trail back to the the hives back to the the termite mound of what we did and where it is so that people can follow it and go find you know go find the activity so I think I think a process like that would work great I'm interested in what everybody feels about how structured should it be what do we call it the questions Matt just asked Lauren the floor is yours well um Charles and I in our organization people are kind of developing a lot of ideas around um how we actually do that and kind of the structures and the forms um you do that in our our latest uh project is hash bins and that is kind of um uh creating a kind of marketplace or resource list around ideas so a hashtag is like an idea and a hash bin makes it kind of 3d where you can connect resources and governance to an idea and so this hash bin is a conceptual framework which means that you can build all kinds of technology around it or you can just do it with you know post-its and stuff like that um but we can actually use these hash bins to work on several different projects together but we can share a lot of different things like um governance and uh procedural templates to make all of this like um really zippy and start um accelerating kind of exponentially in terms of uh intelligence that we share it does sound like the place where you store your drugs but um have you guys written this up any place to record it or like uh we'd love to like anything you can send us that's that's the start of these ideas that we can absorb and in the process we actually want to just make them okay so we can just show you a hash bin um yes I didn't think of that but that's like a very pleasant um first thing first thing I thought it's like hmm and the Aboriginal peace pipe exactly exactly okay yeah now I did ask a question on Monday I asked a question in the in the chat but um we'll come around so Lauren did you did you sort of underscore this the Monday thing or I don't want me to I did mention it yeah uh yeah so we're uh again we're we're hosting a Monday call and so we're talking about just interesting subjects right now we're just talking about race I'm trying to get it more diverse each time and kind of scale up the conversation pretty quickly and um divide people into rooms where they can talk about um basically each room has their own hash bin and they're talking about an idea and they're building out that hash bin and actually manufacturing memes so memes involve not just thinking of ideas but figuring out how you're going to get those ideas in other people's heads which is an entirely different thing um and there's when you were talking earlier about meme generation I was busy having a thought about the difference between memes and like the deep context and and I think there's a really interesting conversation to be had there because because I appreciate memes and I know a couple friends who are like memes are dead forget memes but but the contagious idea that is like briefly encapsulated and like everybody forwards because right that's sort of a meme um are almost the opposite of the deep context and the storytelling and the the the rich things that memes live inside of to me like to me a meme is a tiny a tiny little nugget that may or may not be real that catches people's imagination and and because I think memes are beyond these like animated gifts that we that's what we associate them with but they're really ideas that spread yeah so one of the reasons some of us love pattern languages for example is that a good pattern language creates named patterns that become memes so a light from two sides from a pattern language the original pattern language book is a meme is a thing among people who know it um and and so I so that's a deep meme for me but I think that meme has become you know the pepe the frog gif that's moving the alt right forward because it gets forwarded across all of media and then becomes part of the conversation and then shifts our conversation in the wrong direction so I'm really interested in the role of memes and what you're thinking I actually wonder though if um if memes aren't a portion of a story right um not so much like an encapsulated story in and of itself but a meme really can't exist without the existing framework of a story out there right whether the rest of the context yeah exactly so whether or not that story is true or it's fiction it's that's mostly a material to the meme itself and so when you when you reframe the concept of a meme to just be a a small portion of a story another vector in which to tell a story um then how does that change how you feel about memes I'm suddenly picturing memes as being like the little uh lift point when you when you're sitting on the plane and you look out at the engine it says hoist point or something like that that's the place where that's the place where you hook on to the engine to lift it off the plane but but it's a place of engagement with a much larger object right and so maybe a meme because a good meme is actually triggering several different contexts in our heads um maybe that's a more functional more useful way to look at it to me it's like when you think about memes and like actually um I I know this is like uh I'm not supposed to say this and kind of a liberal setting but when you're actually like making your own kind of propaganda and getting into the fray it's it brings you beyond say for example there's like an idea of institutional racism that's an idea it's been around for like 30 or 40 years but if people don't understand it hasn't like escaped from academia it's not in people's heads so it takes you beyond like what you want to self express and these like deep by academic ideas and gets you thinking who's the target audience and how do we actually build out this idea so that it like it's it can we can get it in there like a missile um you know and like how like when we discovered that when we're having conversations about race um there's certain there's people have hundreds of thousands of programmed messages and deep reactions around certain topics so if you say if you say a certain keywords people will have an automatic response that's not even it's programmed so you have to like go kind of under that language and um and get in there in a way that people don't expect that they don't have um guards up against already we could just do what they did in the matrix and just inject a bug into you through your umbilical cord that that seems to work uh matt i mean i there's there's a couple of things here one is i put a link to a video to dora summers um she also wrote a book um it is the work of art in the world and you know art as a pathway into some of these larger narratives and i think this has been the role of artists um you know in in the world uh in terms of creating change right um and you could even see really good memes as almost being their own sort of social commentary art pieces and and and things of that nature i think the other thing that i would um you know i'm reminded of is a conversation you know conversations i've been having with Kenneth um tyler and also um p our conversation that we had around um that the system itself is that agents our own agency is maybe um less than we believe it to be and that the system itself is what dictates our thoughts and our behaviors and and where we come from and you know i wonder about the um i wonder about the sense making process which is understanding and maybe becoming aware of um you know you're where you are in this system but i'm also wondering about sense breaking and what are the you know what are the techniques that allow for you know multiple paradigms to start to to to crash into each other and and and then start to break down you know break down these things and so um maybe j it just can you can you maybe share just a little bit more about you know the thoughts on stories as metaphors as mythologies that then you know either reinforce those paradigms or break those paradigms and um i don't know where that goes Lauren because maybe i'll just finish by saying and i know i'm kind of moving around in a couple of different places but um i feel like we've been here before not we being us but we being humanity and that these tools and these techniques and all the things we're talking about are i mean these things have been mastered in various forms in various places and yet we're we're still sitting here advocating for the creation of things that have been created and how do we move beyond that into just organizing these tools against a common aim which is um you know uniting collective thought against against the major problems that face us as a as a civilization um so i'll stop there and and sort of relinquish the floor did you make that up sense breaking or did you read that and well sense breaking sense breaking it was referenced in um uh ann and i can't remember ann's uh um last name but she's the architect who was on one of the earlier calls and jillian yeah and so in her book um you know she was talking about kind of talking about this linear and i'll try to find the um the artifact but um the imagination is the thing that is required for sense breaking um and moving into that space is important right jay did you want to riff on that yeah jay and then neil yeah so thank you um we look at our lifetime our entire lifetime and the question of what is it that we remember right what what what do we still hold from entire lifetime and that's a big exercise right it's some do it in memoir but like just today if we were to try to look back on our entire life um largely and it's not entirely but largely it would be these stories and they might be small stories they might be little nuggets some of them might be insights just things that we learned um let's say that if we're gonna it's 80 20 80 percent our stories 20 percent are little nuggets or insights which we might link to memes actually kind of little nuggets and bits of insight that traveled through our lives if we look at the collective we know it's a standard establishment that culture is carried by story but kind of again bottom up maybe it's more like insight well bottom up so just a kind of parallel thought since we're talking about it today songlines being a kind of collective cultural um foundational earth story coming up maybe it's songlines building up to story building up to meme or things that are kind of put out and so just a just a riff on this but I think the question the way that I try to approach it is to try to come back to what is the elemental component that carries memory and informs insight from one lifetime and from collective lifetime so if we can get a handle on what a basic form of that is a basic media of that is maybe it is the in between of the songline and the kind of viral insight or meme um Neil I'd like to step in go ahead Neil beautiful thanks Jay just picking up on a couple of things here um memes I think it was Matt was talking about art I've been talking about poetry and pictures um Ken is a master of puns humor and cartoons our engagement points the trick is in sense making in sense breaking it either makes sense or breaks sense in the eye of the beholder and in the eye of the beholder it generates cognitive dissonance and so at that moment of cognitive dissonance they're now asking a question not knowing the answer how did you get that from that how did you see that so deeply how did you express that so simply how did you capture my heart about what's happening in the world and in that cognitive dissonance in that moment of changing the interpretation of what was up until then a previously sacrosanct chunk this is what I think when I see that and I think this is part of the dynamic that Ken and I play with in dancing around puns that in bringing in a completely separate uh interpretation just for fun around something which other people have already taken as for granted it changes the conversation in real time and court gestures were specifically chosen to do this for the king right and they their life was on the line if they got it wrong they executed if they skirted the line between truth and potential alternative truth and the king could choose when the king chose that the message the jester had been given the jester was elevated and but the crowd was always in awe is he going to lose his head for going too far this time but the king was the one who was seen as the wise one for having decided whether this was real or not and chosen which truth to believe or not and then gestures were given a lot of license the gestures had a lot of room to try stuff until they would be headed but but they had a lot of right up until the edge and they're dancing right on that edge between interpretation and gently suggesting to the king how much you choose to take this to speak truth to power in front of an audience in a way that changed the story right and that is the challenge that I have to face because I'm trying to do that too how do I attract people that wouldn't otherwise be listening to a 60-year-old white guy to come into the room and learn something they wouldn't have otherwise heard right and that requires in Peggy Holman's words disrupting coherence compassionately and you know then re-cohering wisely but you've got to get the system to see itself in cognitive dissonance and then give them permission and tools to re-coher more wisely with a different level of consciousness about that particular issue or that particular thing and I think that is the magic here that we're dancing with is we've got this information in multiple silos we've got all these pieces we can see multiple connections but if you look at it you'll see this if you look at it you'll see that but what if we both looked at it and said well from my perspective it's an elephant you know and so oh I didn't see the elephant and you see these little things on on facebook with you see the faces or the animals first you know those sorts of things and it takes people some time to go crunch crunch crunch and the simplistic perspective is oh there's two ways to see this the deeper perspective is the psyche the the worldview that caused you to think like that and when you reflect on that then you get really deep insights because people go until now I've only ever seen it that way and that's where change happens. Let me go ahead Kirk. I was just about to follow up really quickly on something that Matt said earlier about how he feels as if we have been here before and I would argue that you're correct and I think a decent analogy to me is I think we've been changing the mediums in which we tell stories and anytime you change the medium in which you tell a story stories need to get retold so from just one layman's perspective I always repurchase my five favorite albums on whatever new media comes out right it went from cassette buying tribe call quests to CDs buying tribe call quests to mini discs if anybody remembers those see like and so it's it's kind of the same see that's exactly it like we always end up retelling the stories that we want that we love that we think are important in whatever new medium comes out unfortunately if we take that up to a civilization level of scale it it means that only the stories that we feel are truly truly important as a society will survive not just the ones that are you know our favorites I find that the stories that will control a society are the ones that survive on the surface and the ones that are good for society for a continued existence are the ones that are pushed under and survive because they're so strong that they live through cultural genocide basically but but the ones that are on the surface are really often stories that people want us to believe like time is money and unless people are starving they won't work those are stories that were told and they're part of the controlling narrative that we're trying to overthrow by replacing it with other little mind worms that will actually run us in a much more generative civilizational kind of way so I mixed on that let me go to Judy and then I'd like to throw three things in quickly and then Charles again so Judy just wanted to highlight the the gesture as the sage imaging and how we use that in terms of the storytelling and sort of breaking itonography and moving in all of those just directions because that's a powerful concept cool thank you a couple things I've been putting in the chat I wanted to explain one is the five-minute university because as I see this list of books and things to read and do every time I'm like holy crap you know I have way too many tabs open in my browser right now most of which are substantive pieces that I know are going to help click things in place for me but if we were to synthesize these for one another and place them into our emerging medium that would help reduce all of our reading lists so I've done a couple I've done like three five minute you videos that are on YouTube explaining some of my favorite books and hopefully somebody can sort of absorb them and see what's up I will put the links to those uh I'll put the link to a couple of them in the chat in a second the second thing is my earliest I put a link to one of my earliest videos well not the earliest but an old video called narrative nuggets narratives and points of view and I can explain it in a second a nugget is any addressable a thing like a tweet or a book or a web page or whatever else a narrative strings together nuggets like a story thread would but a narrative strings together nuggets to tell a story so the narrative how did we get to the great financial crisis of 2008 2009 or how do we get out a narrative can also look ahead and say how might we get out of this financial crisis or the pandemic and then a point of view is a collection of narratives in some domain and so my point of view about economics and finance might be collected in the videos I've put out there about you know SNP how did we get into the great financial crisis which is not just a history but a point of view that says we were cutting long-term relationships of trust across the system in different ways and that catalyzed us falling into this hole which we haven't patched yet we haven't fixed yet so so so that would be one of my narratives and then I might point to a narrative of maths one of Lauren's one of Kurt's to assemble my point of view about finance economics political economics whatever it might be but that would be a shorthand so if you came to me and said what do you think I could just say hey go look at these narratives because or these points of view that are built out of narratives because you can easily see what I'm thinking about and if we had super smart machine learning maybe 10 years down the road your points of view and my points of view might be more easily compared such that the system could say hey y'all seem to agree on these you know eight ten things but your major disagreements appear to be over here I've ordered some wine why don't you you know why don't you sit down and have a go at talking about these things right so that might be a way to do it and then last story one of my favorite stories is of a psychotherapist named Milton Erickson who had polio when he was young he lived in the great depression he was known he was he he used hypnosis to try to talk to people's unconscious he was known for his handshake induction so that he would take yet he would take advantage of the fact that when you shake somebody's hand you enter this like limbic limbic loop where you're just in a handshake until the handshake ends and your mind is sort of suspended for a little bit so he would make it so that he would linger in the handshake by the time he finished the handshake whoever he was shaking hands with was in trance and he would then try to talk to their unconscious because his whole idea was your unconscious is always trying to protect you it's trying to do the right thing it's seldom doing the right thing he wanted to give the unconscious a broader vocabulary of options so that when you came up to the next bridge because you had a phobia about bridges you wouldn't just scream and panic and and like you know do whatever you would pull over to the side and rest you would talk yourself through it you would whatever and i'm always trying to figure out what is milk what would Milton Erickson do what what are the small actions what is woo way action through least action what are the tiny things we can do and and memes appeal to me in that way because memes are small and portable and viral so what are the smallest things we can do to soften people's way of seeing the world that the other part of the conversation we're having here such that we can transform our attitudes toward one another in different ways yeah what would Milton Erickson do exactly can so now back to Charles then can i think and then we've already gone 90 minutes we should start wrapping our call pretty soon right Charles uh thanks uh yeah i was just uh wanted to thanks to everyone um go go back and uh Kurt what you were sharing and i want to tag on this thinking about replacing your your top you know five albums and through the different media and you mentioned the tribe called quest and i know you know with they're not alone in needing sort of requiring right conditions let's say for bass and treble and and i just i know for example when cds came out the mastering and a lot of times they were remixed that just the sound was crap like totally garbage um and so that just came to mind this idea of translating between these different media they're not you know equivalent necessarily and then we talk about the packaging and everything else but in just dealing with the sound and i'm also a sound guy um it's kind of a big topic but just to drop that in you know this idea of like equivalent content but it doesn't really translate directly especially the nonverbal stuff when we're talking about sound and then just the last thing is kind of different systems between recording and producing and then transmitting and receiving so that comes to how we listen the circumstance what mood we're in and and everything else through the whole chain of sound and experience thanks you're a hundred percent right actually one of the interesting things is that i listened to jazz um old old school jazz uh on record primarily because at the time that was the medium in which they were willing to share their music with us right so they they sang and they played for it assuming that it would have hopefully eventually get to that medium um and so translating that to cd is tough you don't actually get the original soul of what they were trying to do um i'm working on a project right now with my aunt who's working on um uh my aunt's a storyteller um she's working on um uh the the history of the history in the life of Malcolm X's mother um and one of the things that she's uh that she and i are kind of grappling with right now is how do we tell the story of Malcolm X's mother using the new media of today given the fact that her life was very much lived in you know yesterday um and so this is one of those things that i think just from a historical perspective um we have to be conscious of what mediums in which we tell stories just because of the context in which lives were lived and i don't know the answer to any of that question yet and the the medium really affects the story really affects everything like there's there's a gigantic effect from you know if you if you're trying to retell that story in tiktok it's going to be a very different story yeah right it's going to be a very different story but the story might reach many more people that otherwise wouldn't have found and and can we use a tiktok nugget a meme of it to bring people to a different version of it in a different medium that somehow works better um kim so my favorite tiktok artist right now is sarah cooper who spends seven or eight hours to do a 45 second tiktok you know she's the woman who mimes lip syncs trump to trump which brings me to my point about uh as i'm listening to all this you know i'm all about the body i'm about somatic intelligence this is this is the stuff that i i really like to play around with and if we're going to be changing stories and telling stories that are are sense breaking we've got to develop the bodies to be able to stay in those stories when they arise um some work i did with with a couple of colleagues a few years ago after fergusson was we didn't want to have a conversation about race and talk about race we wanted to have a conversation where people listened to race because most people don't have a body that as soon as the topic of racism comes up they get defensive they leave they get violent they just can't even stand it so how what are the the practices and dynamics that allow us to enter into this really dangerous territory of changing stories with a body that is open and calm and centered and grounded so that when things come up we go wow that's really that challenges me on a lot of levels let me create a space around that where it's safe to hold it and maybe that looks like you and i can't talk for a little bit because i can feel this charge between us or maybe we need to dance around that charge in some way and discharge this energy you know but um this is where for me i think it's really really important to be paying attention to what goes on in your body when things are challenged and there's a wonderful book that i'm in the midst of reading right now called my grandmother's hands which is a somatic approach to dealing with racism what the person calls um i don't i'm listening to the books i don't know the person the author's name but he talks about white body supremacy and how every single one of us is traumatized and that trauma lives in white bodies differently than it lives in black bodies and it lives in police bodies differently regardless of whether you're white or black and we've all got this trauma and we all have to start to calm our nervous systems down because racism is not something out there it's something in our nervous systems so that's just some things that got stirred up in this whole conversation and you know i feel like we could go on for days here i just i get so nourished this is better than any breakfast so thank you guys low calorie too yeah and i'll point out what may be really obvious but um in zoom conversations i'm not threatened by anybody's physical presence because i know they can't reach out and harm me uh on the other hand in zoom commerce wait a minute can that hurt um on the other hand i can step away at any moment i can shut off i can i can disengage much more quickly than if we were standing near each other and we're sort of engaged in those different ways so the dynamics are really different here and um i'm interested in how that plays out and you know what effects that has in the conversation we should start wrapping our call anybody want to drop a couple of concluding thoughts in the conversation charles i was just curious if there's any nano wrap up from the kind of tools map session or if there's indications where that's going uh you mean the one that gene led sorry no there was another one there's a system session then there was a visualization hodown you mean the hodown i missed the hodown so i'm kind of i called it a hodown partly so that would be a little bit memorable and we could refer to it as the hodown not the not the session because i was just confused about which one you were talking about a moment ago so so the hodown was actually super fun it ran almost two hours um and we got a lot of examples of tools up it would be lovely to lather rinse repeat a couple times and to refine um uh although at the end i was like how could we make this better what else could we do and there weren't that many suggestions to do it better i think it's it's like let's repeat it a couple times um and and i'm really interested in what happens when you give that a little more breathing room a little more time for people to use the tools well uh applied to a particular topic so maybe next time we choose a topic and we give everybody lead time or or we pick a ted talk to pick something you know kind of neutral and say hey everybody use your tool on the content of this talk in any way you want and then we compare notes that would be interesting as well because i had picked a topic that was kind of um i picked the the topic of regenerative economy regenerative agriculture which was out of out of some people's depth it was kind of really new material for some people uh slightly controversial and um i didn't sound the gun when we had started the discussion we just kind of slipped into discussion so a couple people who were using tools were like wait i missed i missed like when the go mark was it all worked out well in the end so the session was was really cool pete um real quick i think another hoedown would be a great thing i think something else uh charles asks is there like a a nano readout and it reminds me of something juda said was i wish i had a kind of a guide to um the different kinds of tools for visualizing things like that i think there's an opportunity i and i would be interested in participating with a few other people to you know do a five minute university basically on visualizing visualization tools and things like that um so a couple things on that one is uh we found somebody had written a notion uh spreadsheet that had a really nice long list of tools i have in my brain a whole series of tools i don't know that i don't know that we want to have the ambition of having the complete list of tools that have fields and and reviews and whatever else i don't think that's that's like no it's not a not a comprehensive list it's more like you know here's here's network graphs here's hierarchies here's you know narratives narrative telling exactly um here's a graphic facilitation but a couple of things we could do easily one is we could have people who have a deep experience in any of these things just give cooks tours of the things they know best and their suggestions that's simple to do we could record those post those and then and then link to those that's super easy um and then um oh i lost the track of the thing i was going to say next um oh and then i don't know that we have a chatbot expert in the room but i have a funny feeling it wouldn't be that hard to put a chatbot up that would let you talk through um the various tools and group process techniques so so and then the good thing about chatbot is that they're 24 seven they're inexpensive and you can always just keep improving the back end they can just make the intelligence better so maybe it wouldn't know about liberating structures now but what if we could figure out how to implement you know different bodies of knowledge on on this kind of thing in a chatbot so that you could say you know it would ask you hey do you want a long lasting memory of this or are you looking for a one-time event and then that that would sort of be a sort through the data that keeps getting richer and better at the back end whatever that back end is so so i think a chatbot project would be really cool as a way of of offering everybody a way of accessing all this and then school adventure game we could always do zork um i i have built many i've built many a chatbot in my day by the way so that is awesome so you and pete seem to have a lot of chatbot experience that's that's terrific uh judith then charles just an awesome call um i always end up with more action items than i can possibly accomplish so i think forming little groups that go off and do things and come back would be really helpful uh just so that we don't lose the momentum that's generated in the ideation here love that yes charles so exactly on that on that topic of forming little groups and there was a reference sort of much earlier to the telegram channel that i created i sort of like i like telegram these days um you can say this and that about it and but um it works pretty well so that um maybe the chatbot conversation could for example go into telegram or there could be a dedicated channel even for that for example and i think we're trying to wrap up um but my approach in my sense also with the number of other overlapping groups is is um a little bit the more the merrier and kind of lean into the chaos and the messiness of all that and not necessarily expect too much or particular things or when you want to expect and you know focus on particulars then just work them out and and that's okay too um and not necessarily to have you know like the written report from the from the the hoedown thing but but if you know there's something quick to share in 20 seconds and you know like that so love that i guess find me on telegram and we can we can spin out more channels perhaps or i also happen to like slack but now i don't want to open a whole can of worms here but yeah um thank you anthony i think you might have the last word here uh the people was talking about our various my i'm just trying to summarize nuggets narratives points of view stories epics themes etc that's is that kind of like what largely what's been talked about here is using those devices to capture and store knowledge for future generations is is that kind of a i think we've gone really broad and wide every call and every like we're turning over a lot of soil so those are important markers you've just hit but if i scroll back in my memory through the calls we've been having so far we've done a whole lot of other digging would anybody like to offer other other landmarks that stick out for you because that is the territory it's it's i mean the general umbrella is how do we make better collective decisions that that's kind of our starting point uh one of my assumptions or beliefs is that we have a really crappy collective memory because we're being flooded by by information and we have no tools to make and share memory and i have this weird experience of 22 years curating one mind map which most people don't have but that has given me these insights about hey damn if you've got context you can trust and then you can always look into and draw from that changes how you interact in conversation and i want this to be available to more people the way wikipedia is available to more people so that's another sort of motivating thing so and then there's another belief which is that emotion and membership trump reason most of the time so even though i'd love to build beautiful edifices of logic and convince people of stuff logically i know that that ain't going to work most of the time and therefore we must reach into the heart we must reach into the gut we must actually connect somatically physically we must break bread together we must walk into each other's places and feel vulnerable um those things are all completely necessary to this so so all of those things feed uh this conversation all right go ahead neil and just to weave a little bit back into the indigenous here uh structure i was playing with some years ago uh data in context is information information in context is knowledge knowledge in context is wisdom of course there's different interpretations of spiritual wisdom is wisdom in deep systems context indigenous knowledge and so you know the question for me is you know if this is going to be meaningful data how does it fit so the sense making is does this bit fit and if not what do i have to change in the data or all the map and if i haven't got systems context how do i grok that so i think indigenous wisdom has that beautiful connection with the systemic and the systematic expressed and embodied through the dance songlines and so on which brings it back to the how do we embody and feel not just see and observe what it is that's going on around us and you can hear the bells tolling in the background so i better mute but thanks for a great call everybody love the bells and let me take us out with a thought with a riff on what neil just said um which is um you've seen on the list that we can get pretty philosophical and in fact i think there are kind of endless fruitful philosophical conversations about all the things that we're touching and one of them for example is just about data and a friend of mine tom monarchy helped build the vista system which is the basis of the va's hospital information systems and he goes really deep on data philosophy and early on convinced me that a data field cannot capture what a nurse sees when he or she goes into a room and sees a patient there is no way those fields are going to work you can't have enough fields the gray skills don't work because the nurse notices wow they seem to ashen and their breath was a little shallow and that was a little bit worse than last time i was here so let's call the doctrine right and and so yes and and i'm one of my mentors russ a cough may have been guilty of the data pyramid he may have been one of the contributors to like data knowledge wisdom whenever i see that brought up my little spidey sense goes up um because it tends to pre it tends to emphasize data right and and and philosophically i know that there's weaknesses around data as i just kind of tried to explain so how do we experiment with all these things how do we let these philosophical conversations go but then take the lessons back to the hive so that we can benefit from our time together studying these things and by the by everybody on the intro troops has been studying these issues also let's synthesize what they did let's point to it let's weave it which is partly what i do in my brain like so you go into any topic uh in my brain that i've cared to go look at and i've tried i've been trying to do exactly that like synthesize the best of and put it together and click it in place so that somebody might go in and get a sense of what's happening and then i try to put in my own opinion so that i can go back and then build those and see those and i want to do this together as a big as a big game serious game right so that that's kind of a piece of the motivation here with that we've run a long long time 10 minutes short of 12 minutes short of two hours i thank you all enormously this has been like the total happy happy fast in my brain so thank you all for being here see you on the mailing list and see you next thursday and then as we break into separate subconversations see you in those thank you thanks guys everybody wonderful conversation always leaves me up for the whole day yeah hi everybody and what you can hear in the background here this is lervin a very catholic town that is the call to prayer for a failing church at the top of the hill and so there are huge church assets that it could be repurposed to become the gothic cathedrals of the 21st century you know how do we create these islands of sanity structure and resilience and so this you know infrastructure waiting to be repurposed if we can reach the hearts take care great question thank you thank you so much


And as you were earlier saying, that most of these were like, you know, zero day vulnerability.  That was their, you know, preferred model. Is that still the case or it has changed a bit? Well, and what you've seen is, you know, it's a two phase model. So they want two paydays. And so originally it was coming in encrypt and we'll give you a key. Now it is coming in, you know, spread, be able to encrypt everything. But while you're spreading and making sure you're able to shut everything down, exfilling data. It could be contractual data, customer data, something that they don't want to have go public. And so once you've gotten that, then you hold that data hostage. And we're seeing that more and more companies are having them focus on that. And I have to assume that hackers focus on where they can make more money. And so we're seeing this shift to data being held hostage as the focus over encryption.  We took all their data. You need to call bank X and tell them to pay us so we don't release your data. So they're actually going to the second order victim and telling them to go back to the victim and tell them, hey, pay these ransomware people so they don't get our data out. Which I think again, going to innovation is great. It makes me sad that we're in this world, but yeah, it's kind of where we're seeing this shift.