Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me as always is my one and only co-host Tyler. What's going on brother? How you doing? Yeah, man. Good to be here. All right, wonderful. Also joining us this week. I'm so excited to have him back on the show. The man, the myth, the legend, maybe, maybe the greatest human being alive ever, I don't know. It's Doug from 2 Plus Tough. What's going on, buddy? How you doing? Hi, everybody. Thank you. That's right, kind of you. I just came through sifting through your drama, so I do not feel like the nicest person. It's been good. No issue. We have brought in an expert. We've brought in Doug because tonight we're gonna talk about New Year New Army. We're gonna talk about collecting new Warhammer armies. If you're thinking, hey, it's New Year. It's time for a new army. Don't worry. We've brought in literally the best person for this. A man who flips armies as though it's his job. Yes, yep. So we went straight to the source. So that's what we're gonna talk about later on, but of course, first up the news. Also, somebody out there is watching. Tell me how I sound. How does this sound? I spent a lot of time futzing with the sound over the weekend and wasted hours and hours of my life. So hopefully it's better now. We'll see. Tyler, take us through the news. News, yeah. Rumor engine. I mean, as usual when I'm on the show, I feel like it's just a 40k thing. It's a 40k thing. Yeah. Yep, and I have no idea what it is, some kind of vehicle maybe, but yeah. So we can probably move right along. And next item, the area of the deep going on pre-order. You guys interested at all? No, not even a little. I really want the lore booklet in it. That's it. Yeah, sure. But I'm not willing to pay anything for that. Right, I like that snippet.  So I really don't, that's, we've reached the mountaintop here people. This is the pinnacle. We can stop. What else could possibly be in there? Time to sunset the system and go on to something else. That's right. Either that or release those submarine dwarves. I mean, or submarines Skaven. That's what I'm saying. All right, so yeah, it's no, I'm not interested in it. But but we saw some rules for the new hero. Do you want to talk about that guy? Yeah, Kelly in Fighting Stance, the thrall master. So it looks like we might be, yeah, getting some of the elements that Namati Thrall fans or would be fans have been wanting for some time. Three different stances are the combat phase. Pick one of the following stances. So you've got real hit rolls of one, holy within 12, one option. That's exploding sixes on my five sixes to hit or two hits. And then my favorite way of the vortex of track one for moon rolls for tax, the target for the Namati units, holy within 12. Yeah, pretty awesome. Yeah, because you know, every deep kin player was like, you know what? I'm jealous of the chaos warshrine. Never. It's fine. I'm not impressed, but it's fine. I like the wind jug. OK, here's the problem. Here's the problem with this. OK, I have I have two thoughts. These have been burning up my brain since I read this article. Tell me, gentlemen, what you think? OK. Here's thought number one. Slobby bilepiper and spoilpox scrivener were good design. Do we need to just now are we just going to copypasta that for every foot infantry buff utility hero where you get to choose between one of three quote unquote stances, dances, songs, magical farts, like whatever. It doesn't matter, right? Is that is that just all we're doing now? This is the way to make utility heroes useful. You can do one of three things, but you'll probably always do one. OK, I mean, yeah, what's his name? The little shaman guy from bones splitters. He's been he was the OG. He was doing that since round one. Oh, I'm jealous. No, no, no, it's the. Yeah, I knew that. The was, the was, what is that guy's name? Well, Wardok Wardok Wardok Wardok Wardok Wardok Wardok. I knew it would begin with the W. I was gonna say he's the was a docket jet. Nope, that's 40 K thing. All right. No, so one, yes, fair, you've got me on that, Doug. But I think I would argue it's Slobby and and scrivener that I was just playing with. No, you're right. You are absolutely right. But like deeper than that, like one of those are like just aside from the copypasta, I get it. here's the utility thing you know what I love I can't wait till we just carry this to a million and every army has like four guys at the start of the combat phase we all have to be like hold up start the combat by a good face this guy's dancing his magical dance one this dude is doing his second magic fart this guy over here is blowing the purple bubbles and this guy over here is playing the flute not the trombone this turn so then my people get a plus one to save I'm gonna see every roll one battle shock right exactly yeah I look forward to that bit of nonsense but at a deeper level how Tyler did we hmm how did we have three options and none of them were extend the reach of the nemarty if I oh god right well I mean surely it's gonna be on the war scroll the new war scroll coming up you know what you're right it's not here because the new war scroll in the new book will just say nemarty thralls to inch reach there you go you're right that's why they didn't need it here so we're gonna be yeah very distracted by purple bubbles I'm really interested in what tell me we're not the colored bubble blower we need to see at some point time I don't know what model this rule belongs to but sometimes you hit upon a rule and you just got to find a home for it this is it whoever's whoever's blowing magical bubbles why do why are they're not more magical bubbles so there we go make it happen heavy D6 says so every army is getting a bard yes that's that's it we've just discovered that like the useful utility hero is just bards it's just bards okay now the Oceac bone reapers surprisingly are getting a tome celestial yes they have yeah but one of the rumored battle tomes with more tech archers this year so interesting yeah I have not I don't know if you guys have seen anything events if you see anything any details I haven't seen any details yet I have not seen any details I assume that this is bad news unless this is going to be a rather significant tome celestial oh oh meh I know baby that's a bright where my head went to I'm with you meh that's what we that's what I want to see import that but you know I don't see any reason not to believe that people who get it white a tome celestial basically don't have a battle tome coming anytime soon okay does it have to be that's the case no but is it logical for that to be the case yes so I think now our hope has fallen back to this better be a pretty meaty tome celestial that really delivers a lot of change I'm not positive yeah I what's what's the one that you guys have found the most interesting because like as far as tome celestial goes I guess the sole white grave lords probably though but it's just because it's the army I see the most of that a little bit biased but yeah that's the first one comes in my mind yeah I baseline Doug I hate all tome celestials okay because they should not that should not be where rules are delivered to people the number of times I talk to people and they don't even know that they have rules for their army in a physical publication in 2022 okay now that being said it's definitely sole white right because yeah it was actually cool they did cool stuff with legion of blood like that was super neat and it was a it was a sort of underwhelming sub faction it was like a super cool sub faction like narratively we all love tome like they're the tome blood sorry the legion of blood and I was a man that's cool like it's the coolest thing it kind of felt ready it read underwhelming I don't even like power level wise you just read it and you're like I don't get it right like what does this do when you read oven gory oven gory is underpowered but you read oven gory and you're like this sounds awesome I know exactly what this is all about like yeah man let's do this let's get some terror guys on the table and start screaming right like it sounded fun you read you read legion of blood it didn't have that kick now it does so I think that was why sure okay and last one at least adept con registration is now officially open mm-hmm folks are interested yeah get your tickets are you guys going yeah yeah I'm in but I'm in buddy I'm debating we'll see okay Tyler will be there sadly I will not be making the trip this year but yeah I'm a little bummed about it but that's all right we'll come back I'll see you guys next year yeah obviously everything going on everybody understands if people are just you know opting out that sure sure of course more than fair I'm just saying Tyler will be there sure Doug you're okay I get it that's perfectly fine but we will but I will expect you there in 2023 so you know there you go yes well I saw your reason totally logical completely understandable sounds actually very interesting as a matter of fact what you're doing instead oh yeah so and if it's gonna help your wife succeed in in her career then that's super awesome or even just be fun for her career then that's awesome exactly Tyler has no similar excuse so I mean I should throw you a bone at once model in terms of peer pressure it it generally never works but you know we throw you a bone and give it your resistant but I haven't I haven't had to lie I haven't really turned to the full weight in might on you yet Nash Khan was just guilt tripping that was not the same to this fame Mr. Vince Venturella guilt trip capacity and okay I'm excited you will pass through at any rate yeah it's gonna be exciting thank you to everybody who bought tickets for the classes that's super awesome I was very surprised to log in like two minutes in to to see that like all my classes were full so that's great thank you to everyone I'm very excited to see you all in person again after many years I'm excited for Golden Demon I'm super excited for Adepticon and yeah so you know got my got my a 95s ready to go buddy I'm still I'm lock stock ready to rock what what classes you teach in this year like what kind of a blending class a metals class and a faces class that sounds right off my head okay cool I'll believe that all right that's yeah that's it all right there we go cool news done Vince suddenly remembers he has to timestamp stuff all right let's talk about some pick of the week Doug what would you like to share with everybody this week I'm gonna go with my good friend doom and darkness I hope that I stole yours Vince you put a video that I really was talking about being like I felt the casual as he comes possibly to the hobby so he took hiatus and and kind of reassess stuff and he just has a wonderful video being like where he's at in the hobby and I just really appreciated it so I I love that yes it was a it was a great video I fully support it and it talked about how you've got to find the right hobby for you right I know that's a journey I think all of us have gone through at some point in our life and it's it's really nice to watch doom share it and his own journey with it I can't wait till his own worst nature takes over him in six months from now he's just knee deep in competitive trashing again swings around about in life Tyler what do you got yeah so you're a long time only co-host Alliance had a an amazing show with coach on talking to gash and night haunt folks have missed that definitely check it out that knows what he's talking about when it comes night hot and gash so then we had the die is podcast I don't know if I mentioned them on the show before so this is a crew I think part of the Wisconsin crew in general and Nick Justin some other guys and Melnick has been on the channel yeah they've been putting a lot of great battle reports and they just had a discussion about the battle scroll and a nergal battle tone review that was really good and surprise surprise events their fans of be some nergal incidentally and just just play maybe I'll this will be the last show I'll give you crap about be so bad all right I think I think you've taken enough just play magikinem-nergal versus soul-blind grave lords the original crew Jim and Richie they had an amazing battle reports and again certain war scroll featured heavily in the nergal army so yeah great game yeah that's it great game great list all right my pick of the week is going to be slightly orthogonal toward what we would normally talk about here but I truly truly enjoyed this article this is actually I have it linked down in the description already but it's a goon hammer article about 40k now this is not about a was it is it is an article called what even is 40k anyways and it's more or less just an expression of the current state of 40k and the challenges with 40k's design and I thought it was highly sort of illustrative of the problems of that game and what I hope never comes to AOS basically and it was fascinating because reading through the comments I mean obviously people have self-selected into that to read that article and get all the way through it and then leave a comment but reading through the comments on that on the goon hammer article a bunch people were like yeah that's why I left 40k and I'm now playing AOS because the game plays like it feels like it should and it was just very interesting the points they brought up as to the nature of what can lead a game down a bad road obviously the article is not specifically addressing game design in a sort of traditional thing oh Vincent yeah cutting out Vince you're cutting out big time he'll notice you in a minute Vince you're cutting out a lot if you can hear me starting to rub that you're cutting out a lot or it could be on our end okay I don't know okay we got some F's in the chat so I'll fill time while he's doing that right now yeah you were like let me say one thing and then you just went out now that's fine I don't know why that happened I'm not sure what's going on there like she gave you the mic yeah I'm slandering the moneymaker yeah so anyways I I in trying to get my sound to work I had to switch over and use a bunch of new controls and then it just seems to like it works fine for hours and hours and nothing changes but then on this who knows so I'll look into it maybe there's something else I need to turn on anyways yeah it's an interesting article not on game does it like not on game design specifically a bit about user experience with a game that doesn't seem as user-friendly anymore there you go got you what that's a green was there like one is there a top-level item in terms of the answer the layers the layers became too many okay that's the top level item that the war scrolls basically mean nothing or whatever they call it sites or whatever yeah so I thought it'd be interesting we might have said this before interesting to have that discussion on the show sometime you know have like try to get Lawrence from tabletop tactics on the show he's a really thoughtful guy you know but try to have that conversation with some 40k players and be curious to hear the perspective on a listen it's just always fascinating to me because like the tabletop Titans guys you know they play a OS on their channel and they really know 40k well and seem to think it's you know pretty good game from a balanced standpoint but they need to have some skewed perspective on a OS so it's like I wonder if a lot of us fall into that trap as well you know because maybe we're less familiar with 40k but anyhow I just think it'd be an interesting conversation yeah sure no absolutely yeah all right so gentlemen let's let's move on because this is not gonna be a long show let's talk about some hobby time Doug what are you working on there right now I actually have a set of vigilores on my table clipping them out right now as much as I can I have very little shooting and I have lots of things to shoot in my local meta how about that so I you know obviously people are like well you know just add Vanguard Raptors it's the recipe for everything and I don't want to do that but we'll see I don't want to start the arms race that's the right answer you've chosen wisely no I love that Tyler anything this week of course not of course not we had a yeah straight continues and it shall always and forever at a one-day or on Saturday that was a lot of fun had a good turnout for that and had a good outing with iron Joss so that was nice shout out to Stephen Tracy for making the trip they came down from partners of war got to play both Steve and Tracy Tracy had the all dragons Uppsall dragons list two nitrokonas and eight stormdrake guards that was that was interesting playing that for the first time she got unlucky with her roles on the breath attacks because she got a little luckier she would have had it it's it's a real swingy element my hobby time has been busy working on a million things but specifically this guy right here is almost done this is Chad a car the beast of just nice to do I and this is he's gonna be a tutorial on doing vampire skin I really enjoyed painting this little this little dooder he was fun I liked him quite a bit and then also as I mentioned I spent hours screwing with my audio and thought I had it perfect recording a bunch of stuff who knew you guys should just talk intermittently every few minutes because if you talk and I can hear you I know it's okay I watch my levels over here now but also Tyler I played three games on on Saturday I piloted Nurgle for just to get some more experience there and took out LRL with that what do you what do you run in an ear kind of whatever I had it was like ten plaguebearers and a scrivener two units of blight kings or guts gut rot three plague drones to Pusco of light lords lord of blights or whatever the three up foot guy and a sorcerer the the robbringer sorcerer it was great I said no big central power piece he had some sentinels but there was nothing for him to really focus on having the five-up ward was amazing it just kept everything fighting and going and being around the plague drones were MVP as I exactly expected they were fantastic they were fantastic yeah they held up like a whole side of the board screwed around threat and objective retreated out was great fantastic and they just wonderful they did everything I wanted they threw a bunch of disease on a big dumb stone guy that then slowly died for the rest of the game it was wonderful how many sentinels he had 20 sentinels so wasn't too bad oh he wanted to stay friends yeah I was like 20 sentinels he was actually using to I mean it wasn't like a super hard LRL list but he had you know the cathalar and 20 wardens and sentinels and 20 sentinels and yeah a bunch of stuff like that so anyways it was a real fun game then I played two games of my stormcast and those were both real good both against the empty throne the first game was over very fast I won at the I won on the top of one so lord how do you like to run your storm quest so in this case I was running a potential 2k list that I'm interested in it's all melee but I mean there's plenty of shooting it's just all breath weapons but this was like four full me's cars or I two dragons five vindictors a lord castellant a and can't a knight and cantor a lord relic er who is the general with a mirror shield and high priest and the three of them were just in a triangle around crondis who would just buff him or not crondis around cars or I and just be like go go big dragon go you're the best and then he and the fulminators and the dragons would go in and just wreck wreck the house so yeah the breath weapons were extremely swingy there's all because all of the like all that combined have a bunch of weapons they're just so swingy sometimes it was okay sometimes it was all right so cheer that bright my friend Bryce is in the chat cheer that Bryce everybody agrees breath attacks are not shooting attacks you know move on to your life the arguments ever I got zero mortal wounds out of like one or two out of a good round of shooting I was like but then it wouldn't matter cars I went in and just like the reason that game ended is because at the top of one I blew up his screens enough with shooting like I enough I didn't get them all down because I know played kind of the shooting didn't work out but I got enough to get everything into the Knights the empty throne blew up the Knights the empty throne themselves and everything around them so like by the end of my turn like the unit of cast Knights has evaporated the six varan guard were evaporated one of his two heroes had died and all of his chap was dead so he was like and I had nothing and I had pinned him into his deployment zone so yeah it was interesting the initial reaction to Karazide man like yeah he he seems money he's over there with these big claws and he's sharp teeth and he's like how do I kill this little money he's so money baby I love him you just got to get him on twos and twos that's the key that's good list is he a sad panda on anything else no I mean he's okay if he is if he has to go to like because his main attack is always on like ones or twos he's very like as unless somebody has mortal wound spray he tends to stay for wounds but like it's you don't get the maximal value on threes to wound that's that's what it comes down to like he needs to do a lot of work at 600 points not like as a pure combat monster for 600 points right yeah he has no spell casting or other utility he's there to kill that's it that being said there was around in the next game where I killed two heroes like I split his attacks and killed two heroes any RPG leveled up twice like plus two attacks everything I was like well it is officially on now there you go it is on so anyways that was my weekend painting chat a car and playing a bunch of Warhammer so can't complain nice all right so much for my commitment to be fast because I had to tell my dumb story no no no I prompted it I asked you about storm gas that's all right all right gentlemen shall we get into the main thing here let's talk about new year new army let's do this boom okay I'm so jealous of that head of hair Doug you have no idea oh this this whole thing yes you have it as you're looking down the whole time so good in shaking your shirt it always goes down smooth just drink in that okay set brander did we ever cover the soul blight update yes we did at one point we talked it through we can I'm sure the next time we do soul blight in detail well we will we will dive even deeper alright I'm gonna lay down some ground rules you ready gentlemen okay here are the ground rules new year new army this is our imaginary scenario it's 2022 you the audience are thinking of starting a new army you know what you should also be thinking about as we start this hitting that like button hitting subscribe hitting all those buttons fun stuff that's so much easier than starting a new army almost basically no cost just click that like so we're gonna discuss we're gonna break this into like four phases before you buy what to buy the painting product the buying process and getting on the table because not all army go ahead sorry I was gonna say can you define those last two a little clearer for me yeah buying process means like who are you going through to buy how are you buying it like the methodology to buying it which I think is actually like you know where you're getting it from right I think you and I probably have a lot of different thoughts on that and some of which overlap there's like the point is you don't just have to like go out and buy all the things from the GW website and for a 2k army all the ones yeah fair enough getting on the table is like how do you attack that right alright and then because I think the reality is not all armies are equally easy to get started finding the right alignment of play style aesthetics cost and time investment can be a challenge because you have to align those four things to your sensibilities right we're gonna cover this from both the angle of new players the first army and existing players second army all right Doug before we go on to anything else I want to start here with you you've painted and flipped a lot of armies because talk about like your outlook on the hobby and like how you think about it cuz it's so completely antithetical to mine so for me I value is when I look at painting projects I look at each army as its individual project and so I get excited about an army I find a good deal online usually like swapping it out with something that I already have or whatever like a trade or selling that kind of thing and they just jump into it whole hog and when I'm bored of it I just kind of brush my hands and throw it up online and repeat the process I don't like clutter I can't collect things in the same way that other people do I just don't like it the biggest army I have right now is I guess technically I guess my storm cast my third storm cast army that I have now is tied with my second that I had before about that so in terms of sheer size but yeah that that's me yeah it's amazing to me how easily and like to you painting is not you're not painting it to have this collectible for the rest of your life you're painting you're like the process of painting yes it's it's something you enjoy so it doesn't matter like yeah you mentioned this your third storm cast army that means you've painted two other storm cast armies you don't look at like a chore you look at like something to do something to you know that's like some unwinding do a stream maybe some of it you know that kind of thing right yep absolutely and I only paint the stuff that I'm interested in painting so you know I'll go to events like I used to go to weekend events with my buddy Jack from re-rolling once a couple of times and like I do terrible but I have a blast so I'm there for painting projects and making people feel excited about their dice rolls it's about it nice nice now Tyler you're perhaps maybe exactly the opposite right because you spend a long time thinking about armies before you get anything right and you know you're very tactical detailed you pick whatever word you like about sort of the army you're gonna collect right you don't go by whim some of Doug's choices might or may not be made by Whim I'm just oh yes many many most I always tell people I don't do commission painting but I'm like hey if you want me to paint an army for you just get me really freaking excited about it and then wait for that you know the stock to crash and cash it's true so Tyler what's what's your sort of process yeah it's definitely very different and yeah doing commission not painting definitely for and high quality commission that it forces me to be obviously be a lot more selective unless you know I want to try to drop tens of thousand dollars into this hobby which I don't want to do so yeah like I did that with Sylvaneth they went through sort of like three stages of play testing figuring out kind of I mentioned to you this concept of core template war scrolls can be shared across a lot of different lists so the latest example of this has been stormcast now after since the storm guys battle zone came out I've probably played 50 some games of like a ton of games with storm cast and quickly knew that all right special snowflake syndrome means that I cannot run long strikes because everybody runs yes I can't run dragons because everybody runs dragons now I'm breaking the rule a little bit with I do have some fulminators as I've gone down the route of melee we were all in alignment here around melee stormcast I love it get into the folks yeah so figured out yeah kind of like what are my core template of war skulls that then be played across a variety of lists and storm cast makes it easy because they have such an incredible selection of heroes that you can then plug and play yeah have these varied lists and they have different stuff actually no guards give you how the nights etc so it's a lot of kind of testing and trying to get something to at least that kind of for one place that I tend to like to try to hang out in terms of competitors at least that's a story I tell myself so yeah that's that's basically it and just doesn't follow that rule because somebody gifted me a couple people gifted me an iron jaws army so and they turned out to be quite powerful looks like we're having some issues with audio again yeah it kept dropping I think it's okay shit okay yeah it should be okay now I don't know what is going on there I'll look into it it worked fine in all my hours of tests but of course I don't believe you Vince yeah why wouldn't I have a problem now all right so I'm just I'm just watching my levels over here constantly if you see me look into the right because the levels drop out suddenly if it's not getting sound and then I have to restart the audio engine for no apparent reason okay so let's keep going Odie that's exactly right man can't run 15 bow snakes so I run 10 yeah totally sure that it's the fairer yeah absolutely all right that's how that works finding the right army okay let's talk about before you buy in general we're gonna get through all the individual armies but let's do the before you buy part so here's the here's my my potential ways everybody's gonna have to find their own road to this this is my tips and tricks of things you may want to think about tell me what you think your gentlemen okay play the armies you're interested in before you buy them and this means you could proxy them you could just use blank bases you could borrow your friends army anything like that right do you play at all before I Tyler obviously you just walked us through you do you played it a ton right Doug do you ever play anything before you buy it just to get a sense of it what it plays no I hardly play after I buy it no no I generally don't I think the closest thing I've done is like sometimes when I was hanging out with the re-rolling one guys I would pilot one of their armies that I haven't played even though sometimes I painted it and then try it there and I'm like okay that's interesting idea but no I'd I never go out of my way to do so okay gotcha do you feel that's ever burned you like where you got it and then you did play it and suddenly it was like oh this plays a lot different than I was expecting not off the top of my head let me look at the faction list to see if I actually remember everything I've played possibly fire slayers just just and I'm not sure I remember what it was but there was something about them I got like I think 50 of them done it's pretty much one of the only armies I've painted sold to Jack and I've never been interested in getting back I was like no fireslayers done gotcha gotcha nice all right here's my next one here's my next before you buy think of a like 1k list a 2k list the units you like by the way it might not even have to be 1k especially if you open up the world of path to glory right or you can get away with five six hundred points so think about the army at those kind of different levels and kind of make just make some lists right that you think you'll like based on what you know about the army and see how that feels to you is this gonna be the something I'm gonna want to put on the table is this too much of a painting challenge right is it gonna be annoying for me to actually play in practice you're like all glooms might get so cool they're so super cool I want to play gets and then you make up your 2k list you're like oh my god I'd have to move 120 goblins around the table or something right like hmm let me actually go ahead and look at this again not we're going trolls right yeah so maybe you're still in gets but you pick a different list right something like that so you understand what the painting looks like the potential cost looks like kind of and how it's gonna feel what do you think about that that I agree with I always I do list build before I do anything mainly because when you look at battle tomes like they'll have a lower section that I'm a sucker for and I fall in love with and then the rules are supposedly generally speaking about how to make an army that's like that so if you like bone splitters you do a rock or something like that and so I do plan out my purchases in that way so that way I don't get too bogged down I think the only army I've been burned by for not doing that has been scathing okay and I will save my scathing story when we get to that army yes indeed oh we're gonna have some fun there it's a trap all right so much events by the way do you I'm actually not that familiar with what your process is in terms of getting started with an army oh my god I think so much about it I do all this and more yeah yeah yeah like spreadsheets and it's not as much that it's more just like I really really think about it for a long time like yeah I built a smash bat list and painted that in 24 hours but that was after like two months of thinking about it a lot and deciding that it would be a fun project to make a video out of and a thing that and like hunting for 3d prints as alternative models that I could use and looking at the version of the list that I wanted and proxy playing it two or three times right like it was a lot and you know and then it all the stars aligned on that and I did it and it was fun I was and it was a super fun project it was and it made it you know it made a super fun video but you know when it comes to an army there has to be like a real fire to it for me the only exception is this stupid soul like Gravelord's army I'm accidentally building there's no intentionality there you're building a soul like Gravelord's army not intentionally it just keeps happening I just keep accidentally painting yeah like I have no intention of collecting that army I'm not actively collecting that army okay so I just read like here we are here's stupid shat a car there he is like you just showed up at my house and I was like well might as well paint him seems like fun somebody reached out to me and was like hey I've got this model and I'd love to see you make a video out of it and I was like I can make a good video out of Ampire skin that'd be cool seems like a super cool model and so like I've done skeletons and zombies and some of the heroes and stuff just accidentally you know because I had like this is her city and other stuff yeah it's fascinating so a model just shows up at your house and you paint it yeah I'm not sending this back out to anyone so there's a giant flaw in your plan that that is some underpants gnomes level planning because you're missing a very very important step to there at any rate so here's my last thought watch some content or read some content about it I'd agree right more battle reports whatever right there's a lot of content all these armies out there how they play what their story is watch some painting videos on painting some of the unit so you get a good idea of it you know like all that kind of stuff look at paint schemes for other people who've painted the army get inspired right like I find you want to work much more on an army when you are thoroughly inspired about it right like with the rat cast obviously I had this huge focus coming down from this narrative from this lore from this color scheme with skig and that drove me through what would otherwise be insurmountable painting that army has been like one of the great challenges of my life which I guess means I've lived a blessed life but I mean like it's it's infuriating to paint those those I did two of those dragons they took more than 50 hours and by the end I was just ready to you know break my brushes and never paint again but I got them done I was like now we're done I got enough dopamine to carry me on so yeah get into it is my point yeah let's go say one thing I was gonna add to that is like finding things that get you excited about the army is super important because when you hit those painting walls yeah you can definitely like brush up or stuff so that's what you said I super appreciate it another thing I would say is just when you're working for the the initial painting go for like a minimum viable product like let's say you build your 2000 point tournament lists right play the first 500 that's painted and legal because yeah actually seeing it on the board and getting used to those interactions is the dopamine hit that's gonna help you you're gonna go home be like yeah I have wingspike gets but I have yeah I could do 20 more grots you know I mean you just kind of get that little reward for doing it 100% agree yeah totally agree with that all right so you know get that inspiration get into it test it make sure it aligns with you how you think about the game the experience you want to have the commitment you're willing to make and that happens through that somebody mentioned I saw in the comments they keep an inspiration folder yep great idea I use inspiration folders all the time for projects like I'll just find art or other models or just cool images that I think would be neat to inspire me while I'm painting that army or picking my color scheme right I've never heard of that that sounds awesome like when I did the the city's army I had pictures of like industrial boilers and like rusting paint and stuff like that that nothing to do just you know stuff that I had found on Google images that all went into my inspiration folder for that army right that's right so you because you can draw inspiration from anywhere okay all right next up what to buy and here's a so so I think we're gonna deviate from probably what a lot of people do here don't boil the ocean is the headline you can get a great deal of fun without buying every kit all at once right he would you've got path to glory requires usually like a getting started box or something like that in that general vicinity you got teams games 1k a piece plenty of people play teams I play teams most weekends at my house it's great fun 1k one and a half k whatever right lower points investment for you to get started prioritize the staples that you need heroes battle line solid units that play in a strategy you want to play right in the the way not the way somebody told you the army supposed to play all three of us just talked about melee stormcast we're all in everybody else he's gonna talk about Vanguard Raptors there ain't a Raptor on in this group and all three of us play stormcast okay mm-hmm yeah I'm tremendous fun playing that army okay I don't need to I don't need to worry about that and then my last piece of advice here is stay away from the hottest meta pick or bent units as it's likely they're fixed within six months by the time you have the army on the table right agreed like yeah you understand that you're gonna have a lead time and by the time you get that crap on the table if you're if you're like all this thing is so bent I'm totally gonna get on it okay well enjoy not enjoy enjoy not playing it while it's bent when it's fixed by the time crap on the table so yeah like I think that really and I think Doug I love your point you can play these small things like getting a 500 point starting path to glory or whatever or play some teams games or play smaller games and that provides you the fuel to like I'm keep going keep painting keep getting a new unit right go buy a new kit get that painted whatever whatever right mm-hmm whatever it is Tyler what do you think about this like I know because you you're different by the time you get to actually purchasing for you you kind of front load all this work right because you've already played it so much you know you want your whole 2k list so you're okay to go in and buy the whole thing right but you've stayed off that big purchase right yeah it's all it's kind of sequential yeah one figure out the list of components rose more you said there in your third bullet points step to go essentially buy everything at once and then yeah move forward from there and then also yeah I really like I tend to like to play a list or a couple of lists to death I like stick with a particularly a faction like focus on one faction at a time so you know it's going to take a while with a storm cast on me because this is the year of iron Jaws I actually did you know I haven't played I don't think I've played no I haven't played a single tournament yet with iron Jaws and they're they're incredible right now so yeah it'll be a little while before actually get the storm cast going but anyhow yeah I think you know that here with the slide cool awesome Doug did I miss anything nope nope that's all that's all my suggestions as well all right rock on okay the buying process all right so here here's where we get into the buying process the same headline but this is all under the don't boil the ocean thing okay new in box with discount lots of retailers offer a standard discount if your friendly local game store does look into it lots of friendly local game stores do then you can support local and get a discount like I'm gonna be honest I don't know why anybody pays retail ever for GW stuff no offense to GW I'm sure a lot of people want to like sometimes they have online only stuff you have to order from them fine yep but like in mass market availability I would always shop local or shop with a vendor or you know our friend or somebody that has a discount period yeah cuz then you're you're just like you're saving money and supporting your store if it's a good store like if you have a real awful store then don't support them otherwise it's great um eBay or second hand Doug this is where you're living all right this is this kind of this kind of idea yeah yep um yeah I I'm like a corduroy jacket away from being a used car salesman but with armies but yes I do lots of what is it eBay Facebook groups and a few reddits I've done mini swap on Reddit as well yeah yep yeah exactly there's like AOS by swap and sell the Facebook group obviously you've got eBay but like second hand as I said here like look local first I mean how many times Doug have you found somebody local who wants to move away from an army and maybe you trade them or you purchased off from you pick it up off them or whatever right and then it stays in your local group yep right that's that's half of the re-roaming ones factions that they have nice nice alternative models 3d printing I mean let's be honest the world we live in has changed like there's a lot of incredible 3d prints out there you can if you don't have a 3d printer you can order you know them printed from people you don't have to necessarily print them if you do you have a printer you can that's super cool but there's just so many amazing vendors and sculptors out there making additional options right and these can be you know oftentimes very reasonably costed alternatives to expensive kids all right and I don't think it like yeah sure can you go to an event it what we lost you buddy you're cutting in and out bud let me mansplain this what he means to say is help a brother out before you start going and buying stuff on the interwebs right yeah so you've got these like 3d kits and so on and so forth 3d prints yeah you're not gonna go to war in the world but you're gonna play in your you know in your local like you're playing your basement let's be honest your local store or whatever most of time right that's what it is mm-hmm okay all right and then then again just to reiterate the point you don't have to buy all at once right you know you hit a few kids at a time are perfectly acceptable as you build your force so will they and I recommend it all right on the on the second hand all trader is one that's been really popular I've I've heard yeah some of my friends locally they've been using them with great success I'm not sure where they're I know they're not in the United States so you know you run the risk of having small damage but actually finally got on there I've looked at troll trader you've ever looked at their Doug the troll no it sounds familiar what does that sound yeah yeah it's just second-hand marketplace and I mean they've got amazing deals like you can find on there you know painted stuff I mean it's a varying quality but you know there's obviously risk that something get damaged in international shipping but yeah one of my friends he's used in a lot and been pretty satisfied with it but nice yeah that was interesting oh very nice all right and then my last one on this on this summery getting it on the table here we go you're ready this is where I'm gonna lose people I know but that's okay this is it oh wait too fast the show guys like we're not even at now we're into this thing we're gonna have to slow this down now we're going fast I think it up some tangents stories nope we're moving Tyler moving up to work want to work on it here right make the time so don't worry we've got so much more Tyler this is just the intro part I'm getting worried develop a plan to get your army painted an hour or two of painting per day or on planned days per week whatever set up rewards for yourself right mm-hmm paint the special or the fun units only after you finish a unit that's chore agreed okay like I'll I'll get a paint the fun monster thing if I you know if I like paint up this unit of battle line right yeah don't wait to play get that gray on the table but always be building toward a new unit painted new model at all play with your toys don't feel bad about it right like I don't care if somebody plays with gray stuff as long as like over time slowly the gray fades away and we get more painted stuff I'm happy I'm fine it's cool everybody's got their own schedule make your time mm-hmm and then get involved with a group if multiple people in your club or group are painting set a group challenge you know like start a path to glory push each other to paint new unit as you all go along together that right like you're gonna work better when you're all working together mm-hmm so if it's new year new army and you got a couple people in your club who are thinking about it get them involved stop thinking about it yeah I'm sure they're doing an off kilter the whole time that's super fun I had like my window was off kilter good stuff boy what a great show very frustrating I don't know why the audio thing happens I'm sorry but I'm watching it like a hawk like a hawk yeah so those are my tips for for getting it on the table okay so now we've covered that gentlemen are you ready to get into the individual armies and start talking about the challenges of each individual army yes thank God I was getting worried that this is gonna be way too short of a show yeah Sean that's a good one but that's motivated for me an upcoming event with a paint requirement John I hear that yeah all that seems to be the main thing for so many competitive players especially yes it is a tournament if they're army done very nice yeah like the having a having some kind of the date you're painting to for some people it cripples them for some people it super motivates them no person you are yeah which is fine like that's okay so the point is there is no one-size-fits-all solution here of course and that's why I'm trying to offer lots of options some people respond well to a schedule schedule your time some people respond well to like group activities great find friends amongst you paint together right it's something like that you know set shared goals like find the way that works for you and your motivations you can get there and it could be creative to you like a Jack and I we used to paint and play Total War War Hammer so like he would take his forever long turn and I'd be painting and then we would swap that kind of stuff you can you can make do whatever you want you know I mean all right let's get into the individual armies and my sort of ratings was kind of along this way okay so order starting with the cities of sigma lots of play style options very large number of units old world aesthetic high secondhand availability high time commitment what do you think of my ratings there on that one gentlemen do you agree with all my ratings I would agree okay okay we've got the ducks we've got the Doug says portion here too so oh yes with the two plus tough Doug says Doug says before you buy decide on what you want and have a rock solid purchase plan what to buy start with the base and lean into keyword synergies and the buying process eBay is your friend yes indeed one of the advantage the cities is as I like the second hand availability on this particular army is off the charts it's off the charts yes so like you can get these guys and mass cheap but they're the caveat to that though is that the the well is equally as deep so for example like you might say I want to place it is a sigmar hop on eBay there's a bunch of free guild stuff sweet and then the next time you're on eBay there's a whole bunch of I don't know what's gyrocopters you're like they don't do anything together you know but you can just keep buying things for cheap but I think that having a plan and a direction for what you want to focus on is certainly more key in some armies than others yeah right one of the interesting things about cities is that it does have a lot of playstyle options so you can generally find a home in there like to be almost regardless of like what you like to play right if you have a more like I like to play anvil castle army something like that sure I like to play go out and get them armies sure I want to do a lot of shooting sure I like some monsters sure it's all there right like cities is such a vast army with this incredible number of units it means that it opens up a lot of play styles but it also means you got to do that research you got to have that plan like Doug said right okay anything else on cities Tyler what he what he did would I didn't touch on yeah this whole rumor of bastions of order slash dumb ringer crusades what the heck it's gonna be called you know I keep waiting if we're gonna get a big hammer drop with some of a number of these kits just being you know getting the axe yep and when we finally get a refresh of the you know an actual like is the bastions of order and here's the rollout of these 10 kits and we are removing 20 whatever number of these war scrolls you know keep wondering if and when that's gonna happen we kind of got a trickle of it with cities or whatever you know sort of this grand alliance order over the years but that's it we never really got yeah the axe on a lot of things all at once right yeah I wonder about I I don't know if we're gonna see any other cuts from them is my honest answer but I guess time will tell okay daughters of cane glass cannon play style whether in melee or shooting it's always the nature of their army especially now they have a medium number of units many newly designed units which is nice they're a pretty recent refresh with a pretty cool aesthetic in my humble opinion they do have a higher cost and a I'm gonna say a high time commitment high to very high it's a lot of flesh it's a lot of very small fiddly bits a lot of detail it's not the super easiest army to paint you know I have such little knowledge of that entire faction I had nothing to offer this one unfortunately I was like I don't even know what the hell's going on with those guys well yeah it's I mean from a new year new army if someone is looking for a cool challenge sort of you know untapped waters and a little unexplored territory of course we had we had the Ezir weekly this week at a perfect article about how Marathi is you know the defining micromanager in the mortal realms she has to be in every army daughter's cane army cannot do anything without her nobody you know most people do not play daughters of gain without her in the list so you I think you can build some amazing fun challenging sort of high high skill floor but high skill or sort of high sort of like high high reward on a number of levels like I think can be really good without Marathi but it is quite challenging because it is such a glass cannon you can have a beautiful army with all the different models in that range or most of the different models in that range if you don't run her and yeah I find that would be really fascinating personally yep yep I it's it is a very interesting army but it does have a very sort of in a box playstyle right now right that's that's the reality of the thing and if that's not what you were looking for it's going to disappoint because outside of like loading up 15 bow snakes and Marathi and just going shoot shoot I hope I win right if you're trying to play the army with more variance yeah let's I guess that's what I'm saying is that I think yeah it's a there's a combined arms if you're willing to let off the competitive gas a little bit or you're looking for a competitive challenge and you're like looking to level up your ability in a OS to me a zero Marathi no Marathi daughters of cane army is a fantastic choice as you said it's glass cannon but it can be very combined arms so just give me an example I you know I sent you a list of events I know we don't have a lot of time to vote each of these but like Bloodwreck Shrine Bloodwreck Medusa had Queen on cauldron had Queen slaughter Queen and they're a melasai iron skill that's your six heroes you get three artifacts what you go crazy double war Lord battalion cool now you've got like 10 witch elves can I shadow stalkers 10 melee snakes 10 bow snakes avatar of cane and can I live takes like you get one you get a little bit of everything sure and that that'll be a good army it is but it is still very glass Kennedy right even in that very glass absolutely yeah and that's that's the take-home point yep okay stock fire slayers here's my read on them tell me what you think gentlemen fire slayers okay limited play style options basically grind anvil okay yes small number of units I think we can all agree on that there's basically three melee kits and there are three units in that army and naked dwarves with Mohawk's aesthetic I don't know what else to call it it is expensive to collect I would call it a medium time commitment they're not the most complicated paints in the world and you don't have a super high number of them now because they are a pseudo elite force Doug says before you buy understand that they all look the same boxes times two and plus two boxes at the elite infantry yeah yeah yeah yeah you know they're cool they really are they are unique a very unique army in that you're playing with a small toolbox there's cool things going for him but like you need to eat sleep and breathe fire slayer if you're gonna not get tired of that army yeah it's it's so limited is my estimation I just I mean there's a reason it's consistently ranked lowest on all of our surveys right that's it's one yeah you probably want to look for really good opportunities with that 400 points of allies you know we've been seeing of course Storm's Great Guard have become everybody's favorite slot in for that 400 points with a lot of order armies right now and that they certainly yeah they do wonders and fire slayers as an ally choice but yeah yeah they're pretty limited I mean it's still the faction with the most potential yeah the most potential it's sort of untapped potential I think see if we ever start to explore you know the space around it and and you know I don't think that they are very far away from being terrific like you know I think one kit maybe two like they can they can do some cool stuff yeah totally yeah as they're interesting yeah I don't think we're gonna get those kids sadly but yeah no no another hero but okay right yeah yeah at least we're at the point of the meadow where it definitely makes sense I think to run some or a car to guard to run the shooters obviously to run the hearthgar berserkers maybe a unit of all kind berserkers so within the very small range of choices that you have available I mean sort of the having those at least those two or a car to car berserkers makes a lot of sense I don't think I'd have a home but I agree with you on the first yeah they probably don't yeah and that's a real problem when you've got three infantry or three no I know two of them like one of them isn't even worth putting on the table because it has no role is a real problem no I want to play a hearthguard or this other thing that's worse than that but does the same thing that's decisions decisions yeah yeah I'd Neth deep can the IDK okay multiple play style options maybe even more now maybe we'll see a nemarty heavy play come up with this new hero whoa I would call this a medium number of units highly rated and highly varied aesthetics of sea creatures like this in surveys IDK always ranked very high with its aesthetics people didn't seem to really like it it's a lot of very cool sort of like really sort of so sculpts that stand out I think find a home in this place the sharks the idol on's you know all this kind of stuff I call it medium to high cost medium to high time commitment depending on where you want to go and what you happen to paint right if you are running a lot in a marty it does drastically increase kind of your time commitment because there's got a rather complicated kits and actually do take a little while to get onto the yeah they're deceptive yeah yeah you're like oh these little blind dudes how hard can these be six hours later oh my god why am i still assembling these well he doesn't have eyes so maybe he just doesn't need arms and then you just have a whole bunch of half built models uh what else on i'd Neth Doug or Tyler did i miss anything on it yeah i'm really hopeful for the okay go ahead i don't know i was just gonna say no i don't have anything that's all okay cool i gave you the floor for that great yeah let's see what was i gonna say yeah the i love i'm really hopeful with this new book that they're at the point right now where most everything is very playable we finally got there without an f it took forever i don't know how long it's been since we got that book but of course nobody thralls are the one that are a little on the outside right now but you'll still see them in like units of 10 a unit of 20 here there but yeah i'm just hopeful they get the nergal treatment and basically everything like more or less with this nergal book is playable you can find a place for it certainly at least in the core units yeah for sure yeah it's an amazing range one thing i do think it's important to point out especially because we're talking about getting started and stuff like that if you have uh if you lead a game group and you have a regular game night have a small deepkin army because just like when orc iron jaws first came out it is the kind of army that like draws people like people walk into a game store and they see the leviadon and they're like what is that thing like you know what i mean it's awesome so it definitely it has a lot of merit at least in the specifically one thing that makes it unique to me is that has merit in drawing in new people just because it is one of those holy unique things so i like it i think this is gonna be a great second army or army for people to expand into with when we get the book i really do because i think seeing the three books so far and just imagining what we're gonna get here i have to imagine this becomes just like it feels like it should and it's these wild the sea has risen up to attack you and it's just a super cool aesthetic mixture of the super cool aren't looking army and feeling army and playing army so okay charadron overlords the run-and-gun play style low to medium number of units a unique very a os aesthetic medium to high cost medium to high time commit with this extra challenge of it has vehicles which may require additional tools like painting vehicles without an airbrush is uh it can can often be uh more difficult i'd dug did it harder it's fine you can figure it out it's just harder uh okay and then uh Doug says before you buy watch battle reports they are super unique yeah everybody else is playing war hammer and and you're playing i don't know carriage and overlords i mean that's it it is so different there's nothing else like them yeah yeah i agree and like mark just said it best in chat i love the look of the ko mecha steam dwarves the aesthetics alone make me want to play collect them like their boats are just cool as right the the thunders and stuff just look great they have such a unique aesthetic and they do play a super different game but make sure it's one you're gonna want to play you are running gun you can't just sit down and blast your opponent to death you don't have that kind of firepower in the army right you've got to like drop shoot move get out of there skirmish drop somewhere else pick out there but if i you know pick their high value targets right you can't it's it's not just like a move forward and wall of lead goes out and you just will the enemy play style it's not what it is yeah to me it feels like one of those armies you definitely would like to play before committing i mean unless you again obviously we throw all this out if you just love the models you want to pay the models cool of course yeah that's a general disclaimer so it kind of goes with that saying but yeah because they i i tried them a few times a couple of years back and you know like this without the height of their power and i'm just thinking they're like this plug and sort of point and click army you know that's ko wait you know kind of a little bit but not not really yeah there's there's a lot a lot going on and it's easy to make mistakes when you're playing ko i learned quickly and boy do you get punished for it yeah oh yeah yeah it was interesting yeah mm-hmm okay uh all right let's uh let's keep going all right uh lumineth realm lords l r l castle or hammer anvil play style medium to high number of units with the especially with the addition and potential future expansions because it seems like this is a mix of old world high alpha static with a os high fantasy right like you got half the army that looks like it walks straight out of the old world and half the army that looks like it is from an alien planet yes i love it high cost very high time commitment uh these are detailed models and like sure can you paint dirty looking lumineth realm lords yeah it's fine you can paint your models however you want but we all know that's not what you're going to do you want like the pristine clean perfect elves right mm-hmm of course yeah uh so uh dug says before you buy explain to your friends why you hate them it's only polite before what comes next well okay so admittedly that was um a joke that was inspired by tom deleting everything that i held precious and dear at holy havoc when he was like hey play a game with vince and i will teach you guys how havoc works the night before the event i mean we knew jack was there we couldn't go easy on you dug that's the problem you know like it's it's jack just invites it you know he brought he brought some amount of shooting and we can't let that stand oh my gosh i compared to jack is scary like you don't i loved you guys put that video up on re-rolling ones of how jack actually plays the game of warhammer at tournaments compared to how he plays warhammer on re-rolling was like who are you yeah like what is going on here you're oh my god yeah anyway yeah yeah i mean with lumeneth we should say like my i have a buddy who plays lumeneth very very frequently it's one of the two armies he runs he runs that are still blight and look the reality is you know you don't have to run 50 sentinels or whatever right like he likes to run cow mountains and stuff like that he you know he mixes it up with different lists all the time and honestly it's an interesting army to play against when it's not full of the worst elements yep it's still true that the most common thing he says is hold on i forgot something and that's no judgment on him it's just that's the nature of lrl right it's like the skillful might my warning with lrl would be you have to like a very complicated experience in your army it's not a normative statement it's just it is very it is a complex army to play yes right you really you really you really have yeah you got to know what you're doing because it can be rough on your the person across from you if you don't know what you're doing right you're getting things wrong all the time and you're forgetting things and it it gets yeah i've experienced that it's not a lot of fun no yeah yep absolutely all right sarah font lots of play style options it's incredibly varied army very large number of units the aesthetic is just dinosaurs are cool uh yeah very high second hand availability going back years and years and years including lots of alternative 3d prints out there on the market by the way like there's just other games models and you know second hand lizard men going back to the mid 90s like uh all of mysaurus for example are from the uh fifth edition starter box the age old showdown of bretonia versus uh lizard men the the battle we all knew was eventually going to boil over yes yep and uh so uh low to medium time commitment is is my my comment there like these they're they're models that's like respond so well to like drybrush or zenithal or both and contrast and yay you have an amazing looking army slash unit slash model right uh yeah i think of them as sometimes is like a a counter to cities of sigmar in the sense of it is also a large box or well that you can draw models from but i find that the sarah font tend to be more cohesive because of the way the allegiance abilities and that kind of stuff like i feel like if you mix up skinks and sorus it's not nearly as detrimental to what you're trying to do as like you know hammers or something like that from dwarves and free guild guys when the synergies aren't there that kind of thing yeah definitely absolutely agreed it's it is so much more forgiving in its power yes right yeah yeah also hey what's up jade finch welcome glad you stumbled across us and happy to have you here thanks that's fantastic uh all right dug said by the way before you buy i totally agree with this decide on an army theme sub faction are you you know are you starborn or coalescing a celestial or realm bound and then that will sort of guide you on what to then buy right like so that it's an army that will very much benefit from some kind of pre research examination being a little more methodical uh ben uh ben says uh the metal stagadons super fun ben all of my stagadons are metal and you're absolutely right you could kill a man with those things they weigh it's 10 pounds of like of pewter or whatever it's just my stagadons are so heavy you just if your opponent gets up up and he just boom you just knock him in the head with that they're out for a couple hours easy oh yeah there you go get yourself a uh holy havoc army called the stagadons or stagadons whatever they are all right uh yeah anything else on seraphon there tyler yeah tronzo tronzo made me think about him at a point that you know seraphon can have such a wide range of colors and their army and yet it's still usually feels uh yeah seen so many armies over the years yeah over over five years and yeah they just it's it's amazing the variety of colors that that you can have rocking with that army it always seems to work yep oh yeah yeah because like we we expect natural lizards and creatures like that to be right a monopoly of colors right like it's not our brain goes yep that checks out i'm with it i'm like they're not wearing uniforms they of course they can be buried right yeah like i i'm not like going through the zoo and i see like i'm walking through like the lizard house or whatever then i see some lizards and then i walk to the next cage and see different lizards and be like that i don't buy this for a minute those lizards are a different color than the other one these aren't all lizards so what okay all right stormcast eternals lots of play style options very large number of units the poster boy aos aesthetic um low cost uh you can get from getting started to uh to they're just inexpensive to collect right like there's you can it's it's inexpensive it is here no one says it's it's a low cost to get an army it is extremely expensive to collect everything yes yes that's a great way to say it cheap army devastating on their wallet collection yes yes like you get a 2k army really really cost effectively out of stormcast depending on what you want to play that can be fun and competitive and stuff like that but if you want to go deep and be like man i want to be able to run all the chambers and do kind of anything i want in any build it's just like whoo all right we'll tuck in uh i hope you have a source of maybe look into that reverse mortgage thing i don't know i heard those are good for for getting some money um because it's just so big um but yeah there's lots of second hand availability and the right part of them is i would call it a low to medium time commit again depending on how deep you want to invest because they paint really well and really smoothly they're very new painter friendly right um yeah i saw this all right let me do it i saw this Doug says what to buy any new stuff plus priests i agree like start with Thunderstrike and you're in a good place just you could ignore the rest go into that later right get some Thunderstrike stuff and a lord relic dirt you're good to go for really fine uh getting on the table very simple to paint up yep absolutely all right tyler go ahead nice i can't remember what the heck i was going to say now sorry it wasn't important did you know it's no worries you can keep going i mean uh yeah we all love stormcast so this is this is our home we all chose to live here that says something yeah we haven't mentioned uh i mean i'm sure everybody knows about him just in case the age of sigmar buy swap and sell and age something like age of sigmar sells trade sells and trades on facebook those are very happening places to be yeah for the second hand market i don't know if you guys know of anything better but yeah i keep an eye on those every week yeah those are stormcast all yeah storm all the time you see stormcast yeah for days yeah all right last one uh in order silvaneth uh limited play style options right now perhaps shouldn't be but they are it is a quite limited army at the moment just because of kind of what it's become uh medium number of units obviously it has a very nature aesthetic which can be fun you can do a lot of cool stuff with basing and things like that a lot of work with a lot of cool natural colors i would call it medium cost there are a lot of good third-party alternatives out there and a medium time commit uh tyler you're the silvaneth you're you're our local silvaneth representative uh from the local uh ua tree 103 uh what do you what do you have to say about this here yeah the obviously the the first thing is you know get ready for some potential frustrations with the woods uh you kind of have to like that's the thing that you might try them out to see if you enjoy the place some people love you know playing with with the wild woods and some people don't so that's that's the first thing definitely i think it's a good army to try out see if it if it's who do you play style if you enjoy teleporting silvaneth is for you because they still do that uh yeah i seem to not play an army unless it can teleport or only teleport as its means of mobility uh they're very easy to paint up i gather that's what i hear on the street and yeah they're i don't know i there's still a lot of fun i've been getting quite a few games with them yeah they're not going to win every game but they're they're still an incredibly rewarding army to play if you okay are the trees the thing that would make it like that's the deal breaker though right yeah basically yes yeah it's it's the same story for forever yeah yeah yeah and and because they have to be set up more than three inches away from everything that's also a challenge right now in playing silvaneth right and put one down but you know we're playing on these smaller boards and we've got potentially eight pieces of terrain and there's actually there's often not a lot of space to try to fit a wildwood somewhere because in the more than three inches away thing i found yeah so yeah yep uh mark you can do an all dryad army like that is possible if you consider branch widths branch witches and branch wraiths just character dryads which i mean that's basically what they are but i i don't know that i'd recommend it like um i just consider kerinoth big dryads they're still just they're all tree still right if that's to be the definition uh so like you know like you can have an all tree army very easily and and i think that's good and then you don't want to kill yourself by having to put like an uncountable number of of trees on the table of dryads yeah yeah but personally not i mean again if someone really loves a horde army play style then sure go crazy the dryads but yeah they're very fiddly models in terms of stuff sticking out and it does i just don't play it 70 whatever back in the day when all of us were playing that like 2017 2018 and yeah it's a lot of fun but i mean everything else is very playable like kerinoth are are good allarial all the just about all the heroes are playable alarial warsong revenant obviously is incredible and yeah it's it's pretty yeah still still a pretty good place the army agreed all right let's do some chaos right so this is where i bounce around the most uh we all love chaos i've accidentally tripped into having everything in chaos covered um okay beasts okay us uh limited play style options medium high number of units many old sculpts medium low cost there are a lot of second hand and alternative sites around uh and i would call it a medium time commitment some of these things do paint up pretty fast uh dug says before you buy watch someone play it it's a lot of models and once you buy ungore raiders and monsters sure yeah i mean dug what you've you've had beasts at some point in your in your rotations right oh yes yeah i had a really great beast of chaos army um that really emphasized uh turn one charges and just pen in my opponent in their deployment zone and it was beautiful sure you like that that's i think that's might be the dug tm play style by the way it is it is actually i realized that about myself where it's just like turn one come down from the sky it's somehow get everyone all bundled up in their own deployment zone sure sure you want to get into it right away this this is that this is fantastic i yeah i've been wondering this for years dug like what yeah what is your a competitive go to we figure it out oh yeah yeah just move forward with my nergal it was um the affliction sis turn one charges with uh six puscoil blight lords and it's just you're gonna have opponents that can deal with it and that's awesome you're gonna lose and go get early lunch and then you have opponents that can't and then you're gonna win yeah dug looks at the enemy army sees where they set up and says okay that's where they want to fight then let's go over there and fight them that's it like it's very obvious that's why they stood there that must be where they want to fight let's go do that exactly there we go amazing and and between the the synergies of like brayherd shaman giving additional movement the run in charge they're like it's it's an incredibly fast and aggressive army and i do like it it's very rewarding um but i just honestly i just got tired of moving that many models which there are so many it's a little it's a lot dude yeah like and and yeah it's not that you can't sure like i and i hear somebody in the comments going um actually i play all dragon ogres or bulgur and it's not that many models and it's like okay calm down uh we get it yes there are elite alternatives in the army but i mean like look i hate to say it but they're right now as it stands they are the worst part of the army and i'm not sure that's going to change anytime soon and it's super disappointing uh like and what this tends to do well with is bodies almost in any scenario you're gonna have some part of your army being masses of bodies yes and i mean honestly it's it is the perfect army like i enjoyed the play style like if if you are really good at sticking to the objectives i did great with them you know i went uh two and one at most weekend events i don't i don't really go to two-day events uh very much but like you know because people spend so long pushing through your chaff that they don't expect turned four ten on gore and their back line to come and hop on one of their objectives and burn it or you know i mean there's just a lot of play if you're very good for sticking to the objectives but yep yep play the game what should be played i like it it's strange advice uh blades of corn or just corn uh grand ballet or monster mash those are your play style choices you will not deviate from these in the current book uh grand ballet is what i call the the dance of eight inch or as by the by uh medium high number of units with several very outstanding traps uh does have a some new and compelling aesthetic with many newer models like as they did get a pretty big refresh of kits back during the end times and stuff like that so there's there's a lot of newer kits in that army um medium to low cost there's lots of second hand and alternative people love corn love alternative sculpts of corn stuff like that that can be used people love like corn it proliferates a lot of people are selling corn because it had such like for the whole first aos one it was just in mass being shipped out in tons of starter boxes and uh i will say i think it has a a medium high time commitment depending on what you're saying like uh your dug you and i have a difference on this one because dug says corn blood bound set maybe a box of blood letters which yep i i totally get that like blood bound or any of the starter sets great great stuff you said simple skin tones your two armor colors make this easy my only disagreement with that is if you go heavy on some of those units like blood warriors or anything with it's like heavy armor that has all the brocade on it then this army suddenly jumps up to a high time commitment as you're sitting there tracing with your metallic paints every little armor plate yep over and over and over and over again here's my solution to that your events you go you pick up all your best friends you get a case of for a loco and you say listen guys we're gonna go find some trim and then you bring them home and then you just have them paint the trim for 12 hours and you will have i've completed blood warriors and it's no problem i think you're overthinking this i do love how you set the bar at five completed blood warriors for 12 hours to work yeah i painted like one unit of blood warriors for my corn army and i was like well done with that is dead to me now when we are done that is the end of that unit i will be finding other things that i enjoy playing thank you very much yeah um tyler anything on corn they are good i like point yeah a potential kind of by well by now while at their low points with this army if you believe at this trend of pretty quality books we're seeing so far with 3.0 is going to continue you know like if we get a corn battle tone that has the feel of a nergal in terms of you know it plays like you would expect corn or iron jaws you know we've had some misses but but but in general it's been pretty good so far yeah this this would be a good army to invest in oh we haven't done stonks but i'll tell you right now blades of corn are my highest stonks right now on what yeah i would i would agree i would agree this next book is going to be a is going to be a totally different experience for corn so like i wouldn't get too enamored of its current play style that would be the only thing i'd say yeah uh that's not me knowing anything by the way that's just me reading the tea leaves and looking at nergal and going if i get a corn book oh yeah it's like this nergal book i am beyond pumped right like oh yeah and then combined with like the newer kits that they've had in the last couple years oh yeah it's a it's a no-brainer oh the blood it's all it's all there they need a good book yep yeah and it yeah and russ russ veal i we believe in you russ veal i gotta know russ is probably involved in this he's been been involved he's leading the play testing it's it's happening and russ is gonna make sure we get a quality book let's hope so all right disciples of zinch uh limited play style option i think basically castling is your option it might be a slightly mobile castle but it's a castle that's you have a medium to high number of units it is a very unique aesthetic and it does have some new models uh to it again they've like they're the lord of change is fairly new there are some new kits in there uh medium high cost high time commitment even one of your dumb units of horrors is like well let me paint up these 10 pinks and then also the associated 20 blues and then also the associated 20 brims yay i like painting 50 models for a 10 model unit and like yeah they're they're simplest models no doubt but it's still paint on plastic like let's not kid ourselves here right like you had to do something so there's there's time there and it's a lot of like bright colors and like if you get into the zangor oh the detail on the zangor take everything we just said about armor trim and then add in feathers and bottles and doodads and you know yeah just beaks and horns and bajangles just oh boy oh boy zinch loves a good complicated model that is for sure uh yeah i didn't have much for that one i mean there they can be a weird one to get into just because of um there are a few different ways to play them you know i mean you're right castling but it's just a lot of horrors but when you get into the hero stuff i think it's a very rewarding faction for that aspect because the heroes all look super different and fun and intriguing uh mr jokester says magic gunline which i would argue is the castle infantry finger gun gunline which is the other castle horde horde which is i just i don't i don't buy that as the army i mean i understand what you're going with for their or monster match i don't think i don't buy the zinch monster match army i just don't but i i'm not hitting on zinch i think zinch is actually it's still one of the sinister six but i don't have now that archaeon has gotten a stupid but out of zinch i have much less problem with the army like it is a it is a tough but reasonable army to play against it's if you like cheating if you like cheating but you're tired of getting kicked out of gaming groups for actually cheating okay uh then play zinch where you can just like legally cheat that's your rules and it's fine mm-hmm it's great you like you get to cheat but it's fair because it's written down it's all good i one of my friends that leaned into the sort of like the chaotic evil of zinch he paints all of his pink horse blue all of his blue horse pink sure just to lean into the madness yeah and uh i i have real issues with it when i play him yeah uh it's uh yeah high high pretty can be a pretty high skill army i mean it you know like yeah there's pink horse spam but they got an appropriate point increase so and yeah they've they've got healthy number of i'd say counters that are out there now starting with oops all dragons that can just burn them down off the table particularly if they get double turned by that sure and yeah yeah and they just go bye-bye but yeah i use a lot of units in zinch i really like like there are some really really cool units that i think like i zinch was the i guess it was the third chaos army i built but whatever that doesn't matter um i mean i own every chaos army now so what whatever um i like zinch i like a lot of their units i think like the i i think a lot of them have a cool aesthetic it feels very chaos i think it feels the most chaos especially in the uh you know on the demon side although even the mortals are strange i like the mortals a lot yeah yeah so my my thing is uh with all these chaos armies well specifically the the god specific ones some of them you're going to have a focus of like demons are much stronger or not even stronger in terms of like play style but just you can see what they do on the table much easier than some of the mortal stuff and then other times it's inverted so like this is one where the demons are the dominant play function i feel like corn is a good mix and leans more towards mortals that's just my opinion but um it's just the demon side is just for bloodthirsters or get out right at the moment yes exactly yeah but um i think that's an important thing to note with some of these because you can look at a whole range but in practice you're not playing 50 50 mortal and demon all the time with most of these right yep uh hey all right mr. jokester he i even have a zinch half sleeve tattoo now that's awesome now that's dedication um way back in the day i went to origins and this is before this is back in the early 2000s and warhammer age of reckoning was being demoed like a like a beta demo because this is a couple years before it came out and we went into the booth we were all very excited for it because we're all warhammer players and we were all super stoked to have a warhammer mmo and i went up to the guy and i was like look all this all this stuff the army should preview these all sound cool i'm super into this to play warhammer i like it but let's ask the real question when is scaven that's what i want to know when when are you gonna give me my rats and the dude just like rolls up his sleeve and his whole top arm was a sleeve tattoo of the horned rat and like the scaven symbol and all that and i was like this is a man i like right here so yeah i mean if you're if you got ink to support your cast god you've got my vote all right that's a great way to dodge a question too that's yeah it really was he got me uh okay heat knights of slanish uh limited play style options i'm not even sure how i would define them uh or what they would be i guess it is like uh skirmish and summon i suppose probably um i think their play style is mostly losing yeah pain no pleasure yeah yeah exactly um it does have a medium high number of units almost all of the core chaos armies now have about the same number of units it's funny because as i was i was doing this i was looking obviously at the gw site and you can see like how many different things there are to order and almost every one of them is like within a few kits of each other so interesting uh it is a unique aesthetic very unique aesthetic with many very new sculpts like slanish has some of the newest sculpts of all the cast stuff um having just gotten a massive refresh uh and and and slash introduction of new models uh and uh you know but it is a high cost it's an expensive army to collect and a very high time commitment a lot of the models are fiddly they have a lot of piece parts it is not an army for the faint of heart so uh so i don't i don't really know much about them currently uh where do they follow on that mortals to demons kind of thing well it's all bad so there's so it's kind of what you want choose your own way to fail yeah exactly no i mean arguably right now they actually lean much more onto the mortals in a lot of ways uh like sig vault is one of your standout heroes um you know whether glued whether you consider glutos worth it or not might be up for some discussion but he's certainly a in the discussion as a potent piece um you the probably pain bringer critical starters yeah you know so like um you know people argue that with the reduced cost is some of the bow shooters so like the the the seeker slick blades or the bliss barb seekers or the bliss barbs on foot like it's kind of pretty mortal right now and i think a lot of the lists that you see doing decent and that's mainly because a lot of the a lot of the demon stuff is just uh kind of like hot china town garbage other than a few of the heroes so yeah yeah yeah i feel like yeah pain bringers uh but yeah the archers on foot and yeah you said it glutos sigbald keeper you're 400 some tax to double activate sig vault and glutos which is hilarious yeah and uh yeah be an epitome but yeah and do not read a 3.0 book before reading the selenesh book or where it's kind of really stand out uh what a different world that selenesh man i've been going back so my friend has a price in the chat he's got a bunch of selenesh and i've been tempted to just just to experience it to see if i can make anything work with this army and it is a nightmare trying to read that book it's so oh my god anyway yeah like it's from a different era it is it is strange the other challenge dug is regardless of like mortals tend to be the thing you put on the table but you have to have a bunch of demons too because that's what you're going to need to summon because it's the summoning armor for no reason of course i'm right yeah i i guess yeah i mean i i know nothing about him i it's it's the one chaos god i've never even had a passing interest in um selenesh best god but i get it it's it look he is marmite so i understand he either love it or it's not for you but that's all right i'm into it deeply uncomfortably into it uh how are they how are they to build you built a ton of selenesh over the last i have i mean they're uh the slick blades the mounts are awesome the actual slick blades are a nightmare a nightmare given form like the the little guys on top are just yeah for a tiny tiny person uh it's just horrendously awful um the blizz barbs themselves aren't too bad like you know a lot of the kits a lot of people lament forever that the the chariots are nearly impossible to build i've never really been too bothered by them it's a lot of scraping i saw somebody say all these armies should be rated on mold line removal if you hate mold line removal do not come around this selenesh way let me tell you what a lot of them kits got some big old mold lines on them but like as a big monster the keeper of secrets is actually incredibly beautiful and easy to build it's one of the simplest of big kits it goes together so smoothly um but like the slick blades and the blizz barb seekers are just really awful just scarringly mentally awful um so you know in theme in theme for selenesh all right next up in chaos let's keep going maggot kin oh nergal um grind attrition play style medium high number of units unique aesthetic with some new sculpts uh very friendly to new players uh responds well to people who want to just kind of base coat wash and get grimy it looks great you're like yep you did it you nailed nergal well way way to be uh medium cost medium time commitment fun i i think it's a fantastic army for like your first army or your second plus right now it's in such a good place i agree hello yeah yeah they are the storm cast of chaos my mind's right now yeah yeah every everything's playable it's very affordable to get into that fantastic vanguard box that we got it's like what 125 bucks five something like it's so good so good yeah five blikings two pusco blight lords one of which can be the lord of afflictions 10 plague bears and i think scrivner so pock scrivner get a couple of those that's most like that's going to be about 14 1500 points of your list right there if you make one of those lord of afflictions and you have a single plus coil and you did it too and then you know throw in a guo a green and clean one you got a list right there yep yep yeah exactly so it's it's just such a friendly army to new players both from painting from cost uh and like the play style is grindy and attritiony but you know what it doesn't feel bad to play against it's they they actually nailed it at in some miracle i wasn't sure they could do because i thought it'd be horrible i really was worried it was going to be horrible but like both i've played against it and piloted it now and you never feel like you're just like your stuff dies it just dies slowly you never blow things off the table your offense feels almost perfect you grind them down like they just start i watched allah what's his name allerith or avalanor the stone heart king that's his name dude yeah he was he was in the game i played and i just had people attacking him and they died slowly enough that every round i was just like uh rolling it out diseased yeah diseased i kept knocking him up to like seven tokens and he would just but he was always in combat so he couldn't heroic recovery you know and he just he's just he had he had the he had the black alone pop and he just went down he's just oh he didn't feel like it took like forever but we played like a full five turn game and it felt great back and forth all time right uh like it's amazed to me that they actually got the speed pretty correct on it uh for most people's experience like i'm sure there'll be ways it tilts one way or another when it gets a super competitive edge but for i think people just playing this it's going to feel really good yeah because we've talked about like you know storm cast where you have an army of storm cast that you're putting at the like i can't kill these things because they're on a two up save or a one you know whatever but it doesn't yeah it's like it's not that things are happening it's it's amazing man yeah can i say here's another fun thing that whole game every attack roll i made against lumeneth every attack roll let's just say okay there might have been one or two that weren't was it neg one to hit okay period because he had everything that was neg one to hit all over the place okay between shining company and the big mountains that broadcast oras or can pick units and the the uh the hero dude who's built in neg one to hit himself you know the the mounted guy they're like mounted hero dude i was neg one to hit the whole time okay and often neg two so it wasn't even worth using all on attack and you know what i didn't care i was like whatever man i'm just looking for sixes here homie disease right because you can't take you can't take my sixes away from me dog that's it uh and so it's yeah it's just a lot of fun yeah yeah i don't i don't you're neg one doesn't mean anything to me get you sick uh all right scaven here we go lots of play style options high number of units varied aesthetic across the army many very old sculpts including the oldest model i believe in a os i believe the oldest model currently in a os is a scaven model is it like a runner no it is the um uh globetier the wind globetier who comes in like a single pack for $15 which is ridiculous for a unit and i think was sculpted in 1992 so it is officially celebrating its 30th birthday this year i think uh hooves of doom if he's around or watch this later can double check me the night runners and the gutter runners were both uh slightly later because they're the the night runners are plastic they came out in the plastic kit that launched with fifth edition okay because i i was so excited when that new kit launched my friend i went to the store and i was like oh look at this sweet plastic kit whoo i'm gonna build all the crazy rats that was it was a big day for me um okay so uh okay so at any rate uh medium high cost high time commitment uh yeah this is an army where like horde is more or less the nature of the thing yep and you have to i love scaven i have 150 clan rats and um i liked painting them i thought they're fun um but many people might look at 150 clan rats and go nope yep nope and you know you don't need that many but you but like having 120 is a pretty reasonable expectation right yeah i would agree and it's just it's in a rough spot right now my hard advice on scaven would be stay away unless you truly deeply love the aesthetic like i do because it's a slog so many of the kits are so old you have a bunch of metal a bunch of fine cast you know just like it's it's challenging it's hard to build armies it's hard to build a compelling army i hope at some point we get a new book that makes it easier it's really a painful experience building an army i mean dub i want you to tell your story here because i think this is like this is this is the experience that a lot of people will have oh yeah so uh yeah so i initially wanted to do a um clan pestilence army and so i started building that up because at the time i was like thinking about nergal stuff this is before their current book obviously um but i built 40 clan rats and then sorry um plague monks no i had to be 60 because i had enough okay so 60 plague monks and then i was like wait a minute um i really would love to try bringing in some other elements into the army well the second you move away from that because of the way that the battle line and the restrictions along the clans work all of the 60 models that i had already painted meant nothing now i had to paint at least 60 clan rats so now i have my battle line and then i can take other stuff on top and that's when i checked out i was like oh so the way to expand means i might as well start a whole new collection at that point so it just became a real pain uh and just that's one of those projects that i put down i was like this is no longer fun and relaxing for me because of that change um yeah yeah i mean that's that's the challenge right is it's it's like right now the book just isn't friendly to actually building armies yep it's kind of a chore between the reinforcement limit and the way that their battle line is so heavily restricted it's just kind of not fun to build armies with um but hey hopefully 2022 maybe we'll get a new tome we haven't had a tome celestial yet so there you go boom fingers crossed okay i i've i've been the most surprised that you know where they were in 2.0 and their translation to 3.0 and the gap yeah i was not expecting that 20 percent in the in the change to 3.0 yeah that was a big surprise last year but it's worth i was just thinking about that yeah yep lastly up slaves to darkness uh medium playstyle options most of which are melee focused but they do have a several different ways to play within the melee world uh high number of units lots of aesthetic options classic warhammer right like the chaos warrior is is the warhammer aesthetic uh especially with newer war crime models they get a lot of new options um and now that you they're all you know it can be battle line easily that's great so you can really pick your own aesthetic in a lot of in a lot of great ways um medium high cost medium high time commitment uh before you buy read the most recent FAQ slash tome celestial dug says and uh the star collecting box is a yep great it's a winner yep yep uh so this is a faction i collected because um if you're watching this in the future back in my day you used to be able to buy a slaves to darkness army and then just run it as whatever chaos god you want um that is no longer the case so it has i will say stifled my love for the faction quite a bit um because it used to be their unique selling proposition so that's that's changed so just kind of make sure that's what you want before like it has to be slaves to darkness is what you want now not you know my my wild card and run it as zinch or something yes yes it's just right yep agreed you have to you have to like slaves darkness which i do and again i think they do have a lot of different playstyle options in there like the cast warrior cast knights baron guard again a lot of these things are just super classic and super cool um the new cast knights are so so so good i love those sculpts so much and i like cast knights as a unit i think they're actually quite good in the game so yeah tyler yeah i played against two by 20 chaos warriors month ago and it's hard to go wrong with 40 chaos warriors in your army turns out if you love animals yeah yeah like yeah good lords and they're very good in the meta i would say you know against like you think about a lot of these sinister sticks sinister sticks what are they doing they're pumping out mortal wounds particularly from range chaos warriors will happily eat up those mortal wounds yep and oh yeah and some objectives yeah and and look good doing it that beautiful live up baby it's great yeah i love slaves and darkness if i were playing chaos it would be yeah nergal or slaves of darkness and jets telekor the you mentioned you know baron guards all these classic war hammer models and then you can kind of season a taste from there you want some untamed beast you want some iron golems kind of makes a match to your heart's content yeah it's a really cool range yep uh i will say if you if you'll count the one k of magikin of nergal i now have then uh then i have all of the chaos factions now so i've collected them all i have pokey mandem all right death we gotta uh we gotta speed up a little bit here yep no problem i agree all right might have to duck out at some point nope you're fine we'll we'll we'll keep we'll get going quick uh because i want i don't want to be too much later dug i've got if you've got 20 30 more minutes that's that's what i want this to run here we go oh let's do it all right flesh eater courts limited place l options swarm or monster mash but it does have a low number of units grizzly aesthetic and amazing lore low cost low medium time commitment fantastic starter army easy to expand into yeah it's in a rough spot competitively right now but who cares like new books happen rules change it's such a fun army to play also just amazing lore right yes yeah it's one of my favorites lore was yeah tyler thoughts on flesh eaters yeah you guys know that yeah it's great first army it's such a good first army it's such a good like easy expansion army start collecting is fantastic get you so many options i don't know what to say like i i loved i did this army in 24 hours there you go that should tell you everything you need right if you love goals if you want to hoard i played steve with partners of war he had negash and morgan all the all the ghouls it was it was good oh that's cool i think it was really it was very anti-three-point like totally the opposite of what we're accustomed to three-point oh yeah stuff that doesn't die or they come back and just buckets of dice that he can do he could have done 480 attacks against me and two activations so many 20 ghouls it's like what is happening uh anyway i love it i love it yeah i mean i have a ton of ghouls too because i think ghouls are super cool like it's just a great thing it's again i like hordes when i feel like they do something need in the army and i don't mind running them like clan rats like you know they're like sorry i said i said 480 280 attacks but he was counting at that point 240 times too yeah there we go 200 many there you go okay uh night haunt our our spoopy boys the ghosts limited play style options though more recently uh though more recently with the negash change uh low to medium number of units uh a extremely highly rated spoopy aesthetic like ghosts win almost every time we do an aesthetic survey uh medium cost medium low time commitment dug says what to buy the night on half of soul wars on ebay getting it on the table contrast is your friend uh totally agreed like this is an army that just does so well there's there's specific technical paints that are basically contrast paints literally for this army mm-hmm you got contrast you got an airbrush you've got a painted army real fast uh i told the story about tom coming up and chilling with us for a couple days when we were doing our golden demon painting and we were we all spent the whole weekend painting one model and tom painted a freaking army assembled that tells you right there everything you need to know right they cover the full spectrum with night haunt great for beginners medium skill or if you want to challenge night haunt is one of those armies that you can put yourself and try to get you know that four one or five maybe five oh if you're running the gash maybe that that could be a potential five oh list but yeah it's so much potential with the night haunt yep and i agree on uh what was just said if you uh find out for people selling the mortal realms magazines off that was a lot of good source of night haunt yeah as you said dug the original half of soul wars there actually is a pretty decent way amount of ways to get secondhand night haunt so that's true uh the only reason i said medium low time commitment was because it depends on kind of what units you do some of them are a little more complex than others and some if you're going like heavy chain rasps then you might have like a couple big hordes you're doing right and like 60 models is still 60 models no matter how you cut it so there we go okay aciark bone reapers uh limited play style option the grind uh low to medium number of units uh the bone and armor aesthetic which i think is actually very confusing it's kind of hard to paint those models because like what is their bone armor and what is them and you know what is their armor plate can get a little squidgy i think um medium to high cost medium to high time commitment dug what's your feeling on obr i am so mixed it's not in aesthetic for me um i was really excited for the idea of a more elite death army and then when i first saw the models at nova which you were there for yeah like seeing them on 25s i was like oh never mind right yeah because we were all thinking they were going to be more elite right yeah and so when i hear death constructs i think something a little tronkier so um to answer your question what do i think about them i don't that's fair i get it um what about you yeah you've really got like you said you really got to like that particular play style like i mean i think right now it's like arcane the the black catacros uh hero to thrown in there bunch of more tech guard maybe a necropolis stalkers i i think they're they've probably been underrated in my opinion like they can do some more necropolis stalkers uh mortis guard are not that great but yeah it's a little too staticky right now i find them to be a little boring yeah if you're in your head the play style you want is the shield wall formation like if you picture the the spartans holding at the hot gates and that's what you want to experience i mean this army will do that you will get that right that's what this is so okay there you go like nailed it and assumingly you're like i would give it a couple weeks and see what this new tome celestial holds that would be my only piece of red maybe maybe see what's in that soldiers are close good good i was gonna say the defenders are close like they just need a little love i mean generally just a war score love they would be nice like they they have some i'm not gonna not gonna make a pun uh they have a good foundation in place with obr they just need to build on you were to say they got good bones why don't you steer away from they've got good bones do not steer away from those puns in this show move on sole blight grave lords uh medium play style options swarm monster ambush uh all those are viable medium high number of units classic creatures of the night aesthetic medium cost if you can find the christmas battle box that came out it's like way better because that box was incredibly good that's that's the rumor yeah like it was stupid good so like if you can great get your hands on that bad boy to start your army thumbs up that is a thousand points in the bag in a great way for a great price uh medium time commitment again responds well to newer paint techniques to you know dirty grimy getting things on the table getting them done i like sole blight a lot i think it's i think it's just a cool army dub uh for me um you know depending on on how you want to run them because there are a lot of ways uh just just be aware that like it could be a deep well in terms of a lot of models if you want to go skeleton heavy if you want to go grave guard that's definitely a great option they're fantastic um and that'll help you reduce the number of models but you know i mean they can go anywhere from 21 models to 200 it feels like not really that's a bit of an exaggeration but i think that's exactly right if you do two i mean you could 120 zombies is a viable list yeah yeah i mean and that and then you know compared to like blood knights you know i'm there's such a ridiculous gap you can do whatever you want yeah they're like a lifetime faction to me like if you're looking for a faction that you can devote a decade to this is one of those factions my just go nuts and yeah collecting everything you can play about everything right now it has all of these different builds vircos castelai lesion of night even lesion of blood like they're all vircos it's got all these options one of them is vircos it is a very flexible book yes no you did i was just playing around because everybody plays it yeah sure you're right because they put all the cool new models into one frigging sub faction they did uh lifetime faction i totally agree with that and here's another good note about them curse city also contained a bunch of models for this uh faction and since curse city is coming back this this year and they've said curse city is going to get expansions that probably means at least a couple new models for this army also coming out as well i don't think all the expansions will be sold like some of it will be like additional heroes or additional weird monsters that aren't necessarily sold like ravelords just like with blackstone fortress right but like this is an army if you get on the train you know you've probably got some expansions coming pretty soon this year so there you go that's my favorite play uh which can be nice it's nice to know you're not just hanging out like you've got stuff coming that's cool all righty one more boys destruction destruction gloom spike gets medium play style options swarm elites angry bouncy balls uh medium to high number of units varied aesthetic going from classic old world to new aos sculpts medium cost lots and lots of secondary options available alternative sculpts like oh my god so many in every way trolls squigs goblins good lord there's eight million different goblins out there from every alternative company slash three sculptor slash anybody medium high time commitment depending on exactly what you pick right like if you just pick trolls it's probably faster if you decide you're doing all goblins and it's just hordes and hordes of little dudes it's time i mean it's going to be time yep this is the only destruction army i don't know doug where you stand on where you stand on gloom side i i actually kind of want to play them um but it's it is one of those factions that because they kind of went they were released not too far after the beast of chaos or before around them but like they started doing those really leaning into like the three different allegiance ability type things and i just don't care for that i mean that's why with beast of chaos i just went all braver just straight up um but they don't have that same like one of those sub factions is has enough character and variety of play to be able to like get to do that with um so i i never really got into them uh i think a squig army would be super rad i mean it just it sounds fun like capital f fun but uh you have to be really confident that that's what you're looking for before you jump into that one how about that no i think that's right if your personality is you like a little bit of chaos ball right if you like to just it seriously if you're like a if you're the type of timmy that likes unexpected things random things that enjoys it doesn't mind when things break against you because the moments that are suddenly whoa that was super cool when that random thing happened i think gloom spite especially the the the mausage orc can be an incredibly good army for you yep right um it's gonna meet them but i will say there's a lot of people who think they're that kind of player and are not and the second everything gets bad it gets real not fun real fast the roxy test that army make sure you are that person uh okay ogre monstrives uh limited playstyle options meat swarm or monster mash is the two i've identified uh i like meat swarm i was excited to be able to type meat swarm into a powerpoint presentation that doesn't end up on most of my professional powerpoints i do for work yeah i keep trying to work it in uh medium to high number of units elite aesthetic and dad bods uh like it's an achievable male aesthetic uh medium to low cost low time commitment ogres to me great first army great second plus army fun to play uh i i think mausage is a fantastic army i think cragno is open to a whole new world for them as well uh in a big way yeah i mean i just yeah it's not a huge number of models it feels pretty cool yeah gluttons are kind of a unfortunate situation or in a really unfortunate place right now but there's still other options what's wrong with gluttons because they come in a min six and they're on a 40 oh an entry each so they have to heed the old stupid they have to heed the stupid consistency you know it's incredibly inconvenient for them so that makes that makes perfect sense i was thinking about it from like a what they do on the table but that's that's different it's like a impractice kind of thing i guess yeah you're taking a unit of 60 you get four who are allowed to fight until one dies then five get to fight so you know uh you know there you go but yeah they're they're big i like them i guess it's insert hay well here like they it's i think ogres i guess especially with cragnos and there's been some rumblings that they're going to get a new book this year i could see it um to me again this would actually be my pick right now for second highest stonks behind grill okay yep sorry yep okay and the beast claw plus cragnos like the crag trucks that those lists i've got to be some of the cheapest 2000 points you get on the table like cragnos 160 bucks or cragnos you could do two of the stark click here we're gonna jump to it here you because you gave me some information so i built a little site so when you talk we can just talk this through real fast crag trucks right you've got cragnos frost lorenstein on stonehorn huskard on stonehorn three by two mournfang that cost is cragnos for 160 this is all retail so obviously this is without getting it cheaper and in usd cragnos 160 two bcr star collecting 180 and the optional great mop mop pot for 40 right like that's a that's a deal right there uh we're talking about a potentially 340 to 380 a dollar army and that's gonna that's gonna get you some wins yeah and then you you got the the full-on monster truck the full-on crag truck version cragnos more trucks yeah more trucks yeah so that one's for star collecting boxes yeah for the full-on your stonehorn beast riders thunder test beast riders yeah husband on stonehorn cragnos so one two three four five models animal pot optional yeah and it's pretty i mean that's gonna be pretty good yeah you're gonna run over some people with lots of mortal wounds on three six charges yeah do real real good damage in combat yeah so i just i thought crag trucks was a great example because it is such an easy low cost army to get into the painting is simple on ogres they're big they have well-defined muscle structure they're very forgiving they take contrast super well and like the monsters fur and all the stuff that they're wearing they're just pleasurable to paint they're fun to play stonks my stonks are high on on ogres right now that's what i'm saying uh auric war clans varied playstyle options amongst the three individual armies because keep in mind that's three armies sitting underneath they're effective yes yep uh low number of units for each force but high if you're trying to go big and catch it all right like each army individually is not too large but it's big if you're trying to be like i collect war clans right capital w yes uh very aesthetic because it's actually three armies in one book medium to low cost again like this is another army is not super expensive to collect there are lots of good options out there um you know if you're talking about uh the other the cruel boys half of dominion you can find for a laugh and a giggle most a lot of times on these on swap sites um there's plenty of iron jaws out there and around you don't need that many iron jaws to make an army no and that's great uh and then yeah low time commitment i have here in perin's bone splitters are higher just because it's so many troops for an army so yeah yeah yeah oh someone asked in the chat earlier i am getting my bone splitters back uh oh he's back in doug says before you buy choose a war clan and lean into it i agree don't try to play all of war clans pick a war clan pick a style figure out even if it's big wall lean into it sure yeah then just know what your then it's gonna be so important to figure out what your 2k list is exactly like trying to build all the kits everything all of that it's just too much yeah and i will say it doesn't it doesn't necessarily have the same battle line issue that like scaven does so you if you like build two kits and you change your mind it's not the end of the world for sure because then you'll just pick them up later when you do big wall but yeah for sure yep we haven't said in a while that i mean yeah that iron jaws list been 28 models yeah very low model count tim brutes now three pigs because pigs need to go up two by five our boys for screens two cabbages two cheerleaders two war chaners that is and uh and the sac the sacrilege i know a weird knob shaman so that i can actually you know cast mystic shield because that's a thing in this game that's pretty useful just a shield fence sure yeah but the best defense is a good offense metal the cook on alice man okay we don't need to go on iron they're just the perfect army iron jaws okay they feel so good it is just maybe too good frankly but yes maybe too good oh my god it's amazing anyway okay so like i think but i do think like iron jaws especially great first army i think anything in war clans can be a great second army um and i think they're a lot of fun um and by the way uh all these armies are not too difficult to paint like you know your time like the orcs if you're going bone splitters it's a lot of contrast and it's great big muscle structure you're good uh if you're going cruel boys yeah they got stuff on them but they're not overly complicated when i first looked at them i thought they were going to be so after painting when i was like nah this is a contrast dream come true fur skin metal shield like it's it's it just it matches so well and you're done it looks great they have good texture all over the place it really takes well to sort of new painters and iron jaws are great it's like dry brush plus contrast equals stupidly good-looking army uh it took me five days to paint tyler's right a lot of people have been struggling with cruel boys trying to find competitive list but i mean like uh crack as usual crag nose plus x as far as destruction like he works with that anything in destruction now it is uh crag nose plus brega boss on tragoff's multiple ones and uh bolt boys and then havgrats for screens that's going to be a kickass army that's going to get work done you've got shooting you've got screens yeah you've got amazing maybe a couple shamans for mortal wound prokking on your break break bosses on tragoff's on fives instead of just sixes but army is going to do a lot of work i would think yep yep last army the sons of behemoth don't worry i know i didn't talk about leech in the first prince that's because it's not a real army it doesn't exist and should never be recommended to anyone but just in case we're going to have somebody on the show in two weeks to talk about it and to defend it and talk about what should be played so rude i think i think he's in the chat right now too uh no leech in the first prince it's its own ball wax uh it needs it needs its own show so we're going to do a whole show about it sons of behemoth very limited play style option i call this the rem play style because all they do is stand in the place where you are that's it that's just all they do right uh very low number of units but they do have that big giant energy aesthetic uh if you like fairytale dumb giants then this is your your in your happy now this can be an expensive army because they are each kid is somewhat expensive we're talking about almost 200 us retail per giant and you like buying four of them is 800 dollars more or less without discount however there are a lot of alternative giants on the market like a crazy number of alternative giants who are about the same size so you can get you can build this army for like less than a hundred dollars you think those alternative sculpts so that's a real difference i would say uh and low time commitment i mean it's painting four dudes they're they're not hard if you if if you happen to have an airbrush boy oh boy are they fast but you know yeah g your game group of favorite don't just bring like a g i joe action figure and be like it's a giant no i mean like whiz kids makes alternatives yes yes we'll make real alternatives and there's a lot of good 3d sculpt alternatives out there too so yeah yep tyler anything else on sons oh there's they can still be disgusting yeah particularly now with cragness if you hate the concept of moving a lot of models boy have i got an army for you four to six models this is your army that's the range it's four or six models congratulations very yeah they're they're an amazing like i've got to get a season war reference here at the end so cast Cassidy's been playing some games jordan's wife uh the amazing narrator for all of their videos cast has been playing sons you know getting into a os and it's a perfect starter army for that yeah she smashed jordan up and down real good love it all right well gentlemen that brings us to the end dug anything we missed you want to leave everybody with um no not really um other than just saying like if you just take a moment to think about it i think regardless of what army whether it's four model giant army or 200 zombies being able to remember what got you excited about it in the first place is the key to success when it comes to any of these projects because at the end of the day they're all projects whether they are hard projects or easy ones they are they're investment of time and money and that kind of stuff and so um remembering why they bring you joy uh is going to see you enjoy them whether they are in a good place rules wise or in a bad place rules wise you know there's people who love slanish right now they're having a grand old time because they just found what they like and stuck with it yep yep absolutely i i mean i am one of those people who love slanish but you know we we we do what we must sometimes we must take pain for our god that's the whole thing tyler anything you want to leave everybody with uh amen on what duck said it's uh it's been a pleasure hanging up you gentlemen tonight absolutely i think that the i hope what everybody takes home is that we gave a lot of different tips i hope this gives people insights into the armies how they play the kinds of commitments you're going to be making the costs stuff like that uh and but there's tactics you know employ them don't be afraid to like proxy the thing to build toward the thing to start a path to glory league to get working with other group members you know there's lots of different things you can do to get yourself to a painted army and to get it on the table you can do it like it's it is completely doable so i believe in you we i hope these things help i hope this helps if you made the resolution for a new year new army dug thank you so much by the brother for coming on the show thank you for being a trooper in state oh yeah no no problem and to brian s's question yes i am 100 the Marie condo of warhammer true that is absolutely true i think i said that exact thing to you in the past i was like duck is if it doesn't spark joy it's gone yes yeah i'm i'm the living definition of that meme of like the cat with the newspaper and you just like puts it down and says something random like that's me with like i'm going to sell everything i've ever worked on the last year all right well very good thank you everyone hit like if you liked it i hope this sound was better this time sorry about the cutting i did figure out midway through what that was you notice it didn't do it for a long time i figured out what it was and stopped it so there you go uh so i hopefully this is paid off i'm going to keep messing with it a little and get it better hit like subscribe do all that fun stuff two plus tough is linked down in the description go hit up doug's channel give him a sub if you haven't already as always thank you so much for watching i very much appreciate it and we'll see you next time