uh this is the generative commons call on wednesday july 14th 2021 bastille day yeah so we can honor the pieces who were beheaded the people who were beheaded i don't know what do you drink or do on bastille day so you take yeah we should be safe um so okay so we should we should bring ourselves back to the generative commons also my old friend sabastian hasinger and i had a catch up call uh last friday i guess it was and we were just sort of going to catch up and and and so forth and it turned out that what he's doing from within ibm is really really resonant with ogm and in particular with the generative commons ideas so i'm hoping he uh has a chance to drop in here i don't know i pinged him a little bit but um but we will see um so let me stop for a second and just check in with both of you and see like where are you relative to this particular topic i see you lead up i can hear you very well yeah your voice is really low mic okay let me see if i can adjust my setup um i'm going to take the moment to to get uh a earbuds or something yeah that'll probably help a lot yeah because you're just a little far from your laptop or whatever you're on um so did he want me to start off uh he was he was he was passing the the con to you yes yeah i mean i'm just coming here to see where i might be able to help out and that's why i'm here makes sense thank you thank you and and i'm for me it's like uh we have all these standing calls everywhere we can have to kind of pick up and we like reload the program in my head when we start each of the sessions because it's like okay we got somewhere interesting last week um you know and i don't it's very funny because my memory doesn't work well enough that i can just go like click into where i was at the end of last call that like i had no idea i have to sort of go wandering around and pick it back up again somehow and we're not keeping notes in a way that makes me easily able to just sort of go pick them up and keep going although i could scroll back up on the matter most which is probably a good idea um can you put it back in the chat for me so i can click on it you bet thank you here's the matter most chat for this call there we go thank you and the general i mean a general concept for generative commons is to try to figure out uh an agreement or an envelope or a wrapper or a threshold or a ground set of ground rules like the marquee of queensberry rules for boxing or whatever uh so that people coming into projects that are meant to improve the commons uh and might be moving a whole bunch of different people's ideas around together and know what the ground rules are and how to work together with an understanding with a couple of understandings i guess one of them being that in general uh efforts are are intended toward feeding or curating or nurturing the commons but that people need to make a living in different ways so that we we will find out like we'll figure out okay so how do you how do you make both of those things work really really well together um because there's you know um this is maybe a bad analogy but um in wilderness areas in the us and national parks we like move all the people off like people aren't allowed to live there and it turns out that humans who know what they're doing are really good for the landscape they've done a whole bunch of studies where uh they if you go to indigenous areas that indigenous people still are allowed to live in which is fewer and fewer places on earth but the biodiversity in those areas and other kinds of markers of health are higher than in plain old wilderness areas and also people like that understand how to do control burns usually often and a bunch of other things so that the risk of those areas is lower and what we've got now is kind of uncontrolled areas so by analogy i think a piece of what we're trying to do is not wall off commons but rather create a dynamic that allows for generative commons while letting people thrive in that territory so to speak did that analogy work at all can i just ask a naive question please can you just define exactly what it is we want for the commons so what we would like i think and i don't know that i'll phrase this great we would like the commons and there's old commons and new commons the new commons are information commons the old commons are things like forests healthy soil clean water things that we use you know and the prototypical one is the common where you graze the the sheep together in town right and so managing com and fisheries are all of those are old commons the new commons are all like the data that's available to us when we browse around on the inner tubes and there's some companies that make a living a really good living from giving us better access to the commons like google right so google goes out there and it's crawls the commons indexes them does a whole bunch of other magic and makes it so that you can type something in and in like milliseconds you get pop back an answer of something that exists in that in the digital commons in the new commons but the problem is that over and over again there's efforts to enclose the commons people are not motivated to put things in the commons very few people are trying to connect things that exist in the commons and make something bigger and better out of them so a generative commons is one that just gets more useful over time and helps civilization thrive i mean you know i think i think the highest goal here is to make things available to make information available to people who need it when they need it and and and then connected to that are people who understand how that information can be applied right because this isn't just about a sort of information it's about it's about usefulness applicability and information and so one example i go back to often in this discussion is piragaji liberating structures and wise democracy pattern language these are three really interesting pattern languages created by experts in the field which are kind of trapped inside of pds or kindle book kindle ebooks or websites nobody knows about right and what could we do the simple work of instrumenting them so that they're just way more available so that they're better known and so that people who reach a problem like hey my group is kind of stuck i just don't know what to do could consult some kind of resource that lets them choose choose from among the wisdom that's buried in these pattern languages picks pick a couple things learn how to do them and go ahead and do them and then you know that wouldn't take a that would take some cleverness in the sense of there's probably a chat bot that has to exist in there and there's probably some linking of bodies of knowledge there might be a couple other things but if we've managed to prototype some of those things then other people could say oh we've got a pattern language that solves for this and here's how it fits and then we and then we would help people kind of fit the knowledge in together into an open space where it would be much more useful right as opposed to everybody just sort of curating lists of links which is which is where we are right now right that makes sense it does is there such a so i'm you know forgive my you know ignorance of this topic but you're asking good questions okay is is there a program that let's say i was writing a paper on something that would pick up every source that i had plugged into as i was writing that paper you mean that would analyze the content of what you're writing as you're writing it and then go research i mean that i'm sitting at the computer and i put in my google search and i pull up an article and i read it and i use something from there in the paper and i continuously do that and by the time my paper is done i have a whole list of all the different places and articles that i visited so there's a sort of there's two pieces of bibliographic software that all kinds of academics use one of them is called mendelae and i'm looking at the other one in my brain but my brain is getting slow there's actually several but mendelae and zotero zotero those are the two really popular ones and they're actually quite popular and when you when you're busy doing research every time you hit a page that you think you're going to want to reference you you basically drop it into there's a little you know chrome extension or whatever you press the button and it saves a properly cited bibliographic reference to that page so that when you write your paper and you make the quote you just drop it in from zotero or whatever and on your way so make makes academic publishing easier i don't know that these are connected it should be but i don't know that they're connected to hypothesis which is a different thing altogether but is interesting here too and hypothesis is one of the projects we'd like to to sort of connect to and i'll put these links in the matter most chat in a second um but hypothesis is sort of like a shadow a shadow web where you can go to any page and using hypothesis you can highlight some text on that page an arbitrary web page and then you can make comments to your highlight and then you get you you create an account on hypothesis and then you basically your annotations to the web to any page on the web become a thing you can refer to so there there's like a link to your comment and then we could we could just generate a discussion about a paragraph in an arbitrary article on the web using hypothesis so that's kind of interesting and i don't it would be it would be clearly be useful if zotero and hypothesis collaborated so that the link was properly cited blah blah blah i have no idea if they've done that hypothesis is an open source project run by a guy named started by a guy named dan whaley uh who i'm familiar with uh and one of the groups that i'd like to reach out to for for ogm as we start to figure out what infrastructure we'd like to to help build and michael um factor plus hypothesis might be a really really interesting sort of combo yeah uh and i don't i don't other than dan whaley i don't know who is a hypothesis expert who's like really up to it but i know that there's a couple of ogm or is maybe mark on twan and a couple others who uh have used it a lot and are pretty pretty familiar with what it does so one last question please it doesn't need to be the last actually who are the people in this group that are used to like putting you know they're more on the business end like you know um negotiating deals between companies stuff like that um well matt saia is the founder of collective next and he hasn't been around for the last three four weeks because he had a huge project client project and then he took a vacation um but he started a company that has a bunch of employees in boston uh and is used to you know doing those kinds of things uh you know he's a he's he's he's his own company's biz dev guy as well when he has biz dev people but he's kind of like you know closing these deals for for client companies um then we have a bunch of we have i don't know about a bunch we have other people who run businesses or are business oriented or really care about doing that um but not a ton i'm sort of going through the like the the the role of people who are here we have michael who's the founder of a business and is trying to figure out what's the right mix of features and business models uh to do something significant different in the world uh but michael are you a macher in the in the negotiating world are you like a like a does that describe you you're a mute yeah you're muted uh i get by i'm not i'm not a hustler um but uh you know i've i've uh i've made my share of deals um over the years yeah i'm familiar you know i've worked with lots of deal makers and and you know been in on a lot of deals so yeah and i was actually an eighth myself but i was actually asking about the creative part of it anyway more so than the you know the heavy negotiating part so that would be you yeah yeah i'm familiar with like you know business structures and and business models and um things that i've seen work and not work in the past even from a consulting point of view so yeah and your focus is education and does i hear that right um really our focus you know and my focus is is information sharing and management personal and small group um standing out to to public standing out to the commons so you know that's why i'm here um and yeah um i mean some of the things that that jerry was just talking about are things that one can rudimentarily do on factor factor doesn't generate am i am i coming through okay can you hear me better you're a little bit loud you're a little bit louder but not that much louder but you are coming through better and i'll turn my i'll turn my volume up too that'll help okay yep um yeah um i mean the the actual generation of a proper citation that it sounds like you get with um the the two platforms that um that uh jerry was originally mentioning is not something yet with factor but the ability to just hold those bookmarks i mean if you had you know on a gradual basis if you had uh 50 50 papers that either existed as a link on the web or were a pdf on your hard drive or you know whatever form they were in you could um upload those to factor and and have them there and clickable for for your use but it wouldn't generate the citation um and you could comment on them and then invite other people to comment on them in that space so there might be some use of per factor in what you're talking about and i'm putting less you know factors factors a knowledge sharing platform that can be used in a lot of ways very very neutral and it's intense um and michael just um kind of putting on the spot a little bit but from our various conversations around the generative commons and um there we go um and our intentions and sort of the the way we've been turning the soil here what what's the thing you're hoping this actually sort of might achieve what what what's your what's your favorite source of value from something like a generative commons agreement or or this kind of thing um i think the thing for me is um the the the vision of the generative comments and the vision of knowledge sharing that drives me with factor is um the ability to to collectively um vote and downvote the the stuff that is put into the commons and and thereby encourage people to um put good stuff there not bad stuff and and know that it will you know that the cream will rise to the top um and and figuring out ways to do that that that integrate existing um you know information sources that that turn the information that already exists um into more of a a useful directed ideally sort of rated and and tagged library which isn't really isn't really the objective of google i mean even aside from the fact that google's google's business model means that it um incentives are are different than that um even if their business model was the right business model it's not exactly what they're engaged in um so yeah it's it's it's really more um providing the common interoperable um access to the information that's out there incentivizes um people sharing because i mean right now how you put something in the commons um how you you know you can mark something this is produced under you know a creative commons license of blah blah blah you know that's that's great um but there aren't necessarily buckets in which to to put your information to say i mean this for this purpose and please you know experts in this field please take a look at this and in a way you know hypothesis on steroids some you know combined combination of hypothesis and reddit and but as as a uh you know sort of range of very low hurdle standards for just what an item is uh in in the world and you know one thing i think about as as a as a project for us um the same way um and i when i say us now and now i'm talking about ogm and the people who are you know interested in in furthering the generative commons is um helping not to create but to glean from from what's out there some simple common standards for what an informational artifact is you know like what what is it that an item in your brain uh you know a post a tweet a post on facebook you know uh an entry in massive wiki um all these things have in common in terms of you know title description graphic um uh comment area tagging location that that we can i mean i may be a little bit of a broken record on this chair i'm sure you've heard me say things like this before but that you know that we can just look at those things that are out there um through the lens of factor or trove or mass wiki or hypothesis or any of these things but it's the same the same kernel that we're looking at and the the stuff that's done the stuff that's added to it on one platform isn't siloed by the fact that it was done on that platform but rather added and and linked on those interoperable platform with the sort of low common standard and i think you're describing a really important thing and stacey um i want to know if this next explanation makes sense to you there's stuff that the generative commons initiative cares about that is what everybody's sort of doing right now which is like are we putting documents in the creative commons are they properly licensed are they accessible kind of thing and then there's stuff that's a little bit new and i think what michael ended with is a little bit new which is you know i use the brain the brain has a proprietary data format and it's like all my data is a little blank brain file and factor has its own format in its own storage locations and so does kumu and so do all these different tools if what if we created a space what if we separated the tools from the data in some interesting way where the data was now reliable trustworthy but distributed and linked in interesting ways so that there was metadata with the data and so forth in some way that gave us sovereignty over data that's really just ours but that mingled the data much more in this generative commons so that when i improved one little chunk a node one of the elements that michael's trying to say we should define with care when i updated that one and you using a different tool came in and looked at that piece of data your data set was improved because of my work on that piece of data as opposed to when i made my little data better it was better but only in my little proprietary data file right so so i think there's a there's an implied separation of tools from from data in the generative commons agreement that's not the run of the mill let's just let's just all agree to cooperate well here that involves a re-architecting of how applications work with data but that might make the generative commons much more generative because because then we would be able to level up using the same sets of data and living off them and improving them as opposed to always like a one-off you know i see analyses all the time it's like that's just in somebody's spreadsheet stuck in some corner of the world and it's not and they're probably not going to put the spreadsheet in the in a data commons somewhere so that other people can have it available and then the second example that i use of this is there are some efforts afoot to get researchers to publish their data and results of failed studies and because right now you're a you're a doctoral student you're a master's student you do some work and it turns out your your thesis is not proven or you're botched the experiment or something happens you just get rid of all the files you dump everything right even though you may have gone through a tremendous amount of data collection the data might be really interesting useful something broke your thesis advisor hated the project whatever but what if we published sort of data and then had reliability you know ratings around it so you would understand if it was really just crap data then you could deprecate it but if it's useful data in any way how do we put that in the commons so that all of our data and all of our efforts aggregate up and start doing things and and sort of peter norvig is the chief scientist at google and i got to meet him and he said some really interesting things that like when when data gets big when data passes a certain scale it just change what you can derive from it sort of changes in nature you can just suddenly like you can do a lot more useful things and i'm badly paraphrasing what he said okay because he's a genius about this and i'm like just waiting into the waters but we're sort of denying ourselves all the data that everybody's busy working on collecting because it's not in some space or it's set out in some way where it's findable and reusable by other people in different ways so did that make sense make sense okay yes and so there's a piece of generative commons that's like an ask to developers to work differently and i'm not sure we'll pull that off but i think we need to articulate that and maybe we need to separate that from the the regular ask like hey here's the here's first level generative maybe that means we have a couple levels of generative commons one of them is we agree that we're going to use as much as possible creative commons licenses for all of our work and that our data is going to be put someplace where other people can find it in this way in that way awesome and then level two is and we're going to rearchitect what we do so that our data is completely reusable and that we're when we're busy sort of feeding off of and improving our data we're doing that in a way that collaborates with other people doing the same right and then that means like that any nugget who would have version control so so if i was pointing to a nugget and i knew that that was reliable data and somebody else came in and messed with it and changed it and made it suddenly unreliable i'm pointing to the older version and so my data should remain untouched and trustworthy and then i can upgrade any of the little nodes of data depending on my understanding of other people's reliability on improving it for example right so so i don't think that this kind of shared data messes up each individual's observations or uses or anything like that but it depends on some degree of version control and and as an example pete with massive wiki what he's doing is he's using github as version control for nuggets which are simple markdown files and i'm just waiting for him to do a little more work on massive because i want to record a demo of saving a file which is just a markdown file that lives in a wiki that lives on a website that lives in a presentation and that lives in a brain like display right same file and then make a change and see how it's changed everywhere and so when i say powerpoint there's a bunch there's probably a dozen maybe 20 different apps people have written half of which are just open source code that will look at markdown and interpret it as a presentation so one of the ways is a dashed line means new slide and then you know bullets basically you know star star phrase star phrase star phrase those are bullet points you can embed an image that shows up in the page and basically the software knows how to interpret a markdown file or several markdown files as if they were a powerpoint and the software gives you left and right arrows goes full screen and suddenly you've got like a and you know poor man's powerpoint which is really interesting because the content of that page can just be a normal little plain file as opposed to one slide in one version of one deck of powerpoint or keynote or what have you and so we would deconstruct presentations in that way and i have wanted this for a long time i've wanted my presentations to just be playlists and then each of the pages to be editable separately and you know in slide sort of view it would just be pulling up images of each of these separate little files and i'd move them around and that would move that would shift around my playlist but my presentation would be the playlist timestamped for the day i did the presentation so that if i ever went back and wanted to play the presentation again i would play that playlist and it would pick that day's version of each of those files but if i wanted to update my presentation i would say hey show me exactly these slides but bring them all up to date and so if one of the slides for example was an automatic database query of sales in the northwest region then that slide would contain the most recent numbers for all of that and you know if somebody else was busy curating a dashboard slide that dashboard would be always completely up to date if we wanted that to be that way right so so there's a there's an aspect here of messing with how data is treated and how apps treat data that's not just about the sharing but i actually think that that's like this multifaceted access is really powerful and we're not like and maybe this doesn't belong in the generative commons agreement but is a different venture i don't know hey john thanks for joining us um sorry i was on a riff and didn't interrupt that's that's great i i like it i want to hear more but i'm going to stay on mute because i'm driving awesome thanks um so anyway thoughts um i i come back to this a lot but um you know the question of of how that um the mechanics of that are generated as a i mean for sure that's our goal i mean that that should be the goal of of anybody you know who who believes in an interoperative interoperative access to commons you know freshly updated and gets better with time um and is i mean when i when i look at our group and what we're able to actually do as opposed to conceive of i think uh you know that that giving ourselves the task of creating that um from from just a strictly technical point of view instead of finding it um and and you know bringing bringing together the people who could manifest that which might you know touchy touchy subject here but might involve your friends at google but you know uh and and or google i mean it's like taming taming the monsters that exist um with um with the presentation of alternatives from smaller smarter players and um and good-hearted um technical wizards um seems like what has to happen and if they're going if the bigger players are going to be brought to bear short of you know to me i mean i think like a lot of the stuff that ends up being big legislative issues you know section 230 uh you know moderation blah blah blah blah you know all the things that people fight over are a little bit beside the point um and if we're gonna get somewhere legislatively it's probably just about enforcing interoperability more um and portability so if if we can manage to make data become more portable and so that you know it's easy for people to say okay this thing i've got on on facebook you know i want that in the commons or i'm gonna bring it over here to whatever other platform um then the the membrane or standards that connect those things um for for vetting and constant updating and that kind of stuff um can't can't be any kind of proprietary invention and um sorry i'm i'm rambling a bit but you know just to say that um it doesn't feel like something that we're gonna make um as much as as discover and agree to and probably discover you know different versions of it that already exist you know help get people talking to each other um absolutely uh you know find find out who to follow almost more than we'd be leading and you know again again legislating to uh toward you know our our outward push as opposed to like getting together and trying to figure it out among ourselves yeah so so totally agree and there's a general ogm principle and so far as we have any principles because a general ogm principle of not reinventing the wheel and of of doing things only until we find that somebody else has already done this and adopting theirs and making it better and you know the reason we love open source projects is that if they're close but not exactly on the thing we see we can we can enhance fork you know a fork and pole you know recommend a change and see if they'll take it uh but but i think that like designing this distributed data object layer is way beyond most of our pay grades we may have one or two people who can dip their toes in that water and feel comfortable uh but we're two degrees at most from the inventors of most of these protocols and standards like like reaching them is actually really easy these days but so the so part of the the quest is to find the architectural components that really work and that matter uh you know and which one which one's to lean on which one's to use and and so you know tim bernersley and the semantic web and w3c and there's a bunch of bodies that have done a whole lot of work on different aspects here then there's the distributed web set of communities make building daps and building you know ipfs uh is the interplanetary file system which is actually in use it basically shards up files and then distributes them so that i would save a mess of an aggregate of chunks of different people's files in a way that i don't get to see what's in the data but i'm helping host a distributed file system called ipfs that exists it's the underpinning of a bunch of services out in the web maybe that's a component but other people are taking other architectural approaches to solving the same set of problems and if we define the results are trying to get well we might even be able to sort of hop from technology to better technology over time which would be really cool right so some of this some of this is way beyond certainly my pay grade as information architects and data scientists and other sorts of things but rather than training data scientists on how to optimize their own data sets and use big data to sell me more stuff i would love to motivate data scientists to figure out how to share data in a more generative way and even even that like shifting of attention and effort and intention could have a really big effect over time right um yeah there's something interesting in to me in in what you just said that has come up a number of times has nominally an area of agreement and and not not that it's a disagreement but just the distinction that i would draw um i've heard you said say you know i'm just heard you say do something only as long as it takes to find somebody else um you know who's who's doing that thing better and i wonder if uh finding the people who are doing things better and only doing something if no one else is doing it kind of the same thing but but not you know i mean i i think there are some there are some things that are involved in the vision that you have that we have of of ogm's effect um that you know we know we're not alone in having that vision and um you know if if we were this is an if that could be uh you know kind of what we do um if we were tasked with um assembling the world we dream of out of existing parts and and we we had no option to create anything um what what would those parts be and how do we work together to to identify them and find them and and vet them and you know and and find the ones who are doing a similar thing and lift up the one that we think is doing it right um and and try to convince the ones who are doing it well but not quite as well to interoperate with the one that's an alien you know you got me uh totally um and i was just looking up hypothesis which is under this thought potential ogm architecture components so this is just me collecting and i am not a technician or a coder but this is just me picking up really interesting pieces not all of these are open source code um but many of them are here's ipfs which i was just talking about the interplanetary file system there's also a thing called ipld which is ip link data which is really really interesting and so i don't know enough to know that ipld is better than some other sort of link data initiative and there's a bunch of them here's my you know my collection of them solid is uh apparently a really interesting project which is in neighbor communities and self sovereign identity but is not connected to potential ogm architecture components so i'm going to fix that and so i'm busy trying to collect these in the hopes that in the hopes that at some point we have the literacy and the experts and the intention and curiosity and maybe some funding to go figure out which of these which of these piece of parts are best to read which ones will work together which of these communities is eager to work toward you know this this shared kind of vision and how would that work um so so absolutely like for example this group i don't really know uh disco uh i've i've sort of been on a call where staccato tronco so spoke i think once but he wouldn't know who i am but they're doing like really amazing work uh that is very much in line with what we're talking about so how do we you know how do we absorb uh apply uh riff on and then add in the pieces of the vision that we see uh and see you know kind of if nobody resonates with those pieces of vision then maybe it's not an interesting vision but but i don't know we have instincts here right and and my own so i used to be a tech industry trends analyst and i can point to a bunch of things that i saw and wrote about back in the day that that that turned into things like a couple years or sometimes five years later i didn't name them the right thing but i completely had the right ingredients and the right of the right idea you know where it was going and all that you know at one point when when buddy lists showed up when instant messaging showed up one of the things i wrote is that like the future interface of your of your telephone just showed up and it's like i don't really use the telephone anymore for me there's a list of names and i see a little green light or a red light or whatever next to them in my like google hangouts chat or whatever and that tells me if people are around and and now i have way too many tools that do exactly that same function right whatsapp etc but the the telephone interface of just like a blank screen and tell me a phone number i don't remember phone numbers anymore right i know i know almost nobody's i have trouble remembering my own phone number anymore when i when i have to cough it up for id of some sort so so anyway um so i think that that there's a lot of interesting things that we're sort of plowing into here that that we need to find out who else has these visions and who else and who else has already plowed this ground and built some of this and then where nobody has let's see if we can fund a project to go to go write a really loose version of that code and then see if anybody else wants to use it put it in put that in the generative commons uh so that people can come and pick it up and make it better and change it as long as they'll put it back in the commons and then we all get to use it and john did you want to jump in yeah just briefly in this you know just maybe something you've already covered uh censorship and the bubble breaker browser idea and how do you keep things on keep things accessible to cause trouble for the or that should you're breaking up on us a lot one of the sorry we're catching like two-thirds of what you're saying but it just it's we're losing enough to make sense of what you're saying two words internet archive internet archive yeah no thinking in the potential oh man you're breaking up worse now so so i i i think booster kale is one of like modern era heroes and i'm friendly with booster and several other people who are at the archive who are awesome humans and one of my wishes for ogm is to just go approach the archive and figure out how how what we're looking at fits what they're doing already how to amplify what they're doing etc etc so absolutely yeah and and i don't know if this speaks to what you're talking about john definitely speaks to what you're talking about jerry um when you know again thinking of of factor being just one of a suite not even a suite a a class of of information sharing tools that that tap publicly accessible information and allow people to to add tagging and then other metadata and comments to it um and have those surfaced interoperably on on different platforms it seems like the starting point and you know i was actually talking to to mark caramba about the internet archive the other day um and you know and want to see if this is a possibility with factor to take you know publicly accessible um uh information sources um we were also talking to somebody at wikimedia about this but you know wikimedia there's a there's a platform called um uh here it's something really simple like curator.org i have to double check but you know it's basically pulling up um publicly accessible art and and objects from museum collections and and such things um and you know then public domain everything um and just you know just being able to peruse all that stuff through whatever um platform you're using and get the benefit of um the enhancements that that people bring to it over time um yeah that all should be part of the mix sounds great that's what you're talking about yeah yeah i know that's what i know that's what you were talking about jerry i hope that's what john was was trying to get through it yeah john and i'm sorry john you're you were breaking up so much i don't know if you're you know i know i know you can't really respond now but one thing i'm really interested in talking about i mentioned um that you were um working with uh klia young um on some stuff and uh i've talked to her too and i'm really interested in some things about um how people's individual sovereign identities decentralized identities play in these arenas and just because we're in a small group and i know you're i know you're listening uh love to talk to you about that um i think there's maybe some some stuff that we could yeah yeah that's great let's let's take that one offline that would that'd be great that would be great and uh klia's an old and dear friend so um well i think what you know i think just you know inviting her into a spotlight conversation here and seeing you know what they what they've got going and how it might fit what we're doing would be a great thing to do that'd be really fun um and then doc sorals is part of the founding of iiw as well he's a dear friend uh and he's doing a bunch of stuff right now um around flipping flipping how advertising works so that instead of all of us being bombed all the time with offers for everything to flip it around so that we put out a request that says i am looking for x and we get bids on our on our request and he calls this the customer commons so i believe he's got customer commons dot com uh and is trying to figure out how to do that and then he has some traction with that idea at the ostrom workshop at university of indiana and bloomington so he and his wife i think are going to go rent a flat in bloomington for for a while and figure out you know what to do about that project and where it goes and all of those kinds of things and that's another neighbor project here um so so partly that's really cool and i just wanted to recommend that um there was a there was a link you posted to a lecture that doc did affiliated with the ostrom institute that you said yeah i haven't i haven't watched this yet but you know i bet it's good for something and i endorse that uh and and urge that everybody here watching it's a really good really good kind of and and and you know it's worth pushing out just because it's a good a good broad relatively accessible how we got to where we're at um and framing of of the the digital world i'm going to post docs ostrom memorial lecture in our chat gotta make a pretty a pretty markdown link and there it is um thank you i'm glad i'm glad that was useful and and it's so interesting because every time we turn over a rock in these conversations it's like oh yeah kalia iow we should go talk to them and it's like uh zotero mendeley yeah or dan waley hypothesis we should go talk to them and we're not we're not at the place where we can just easily and rhythmically have these conversations and then do something fruitful with each conversation we're still trying to figure out what do we bring to each of these parties how can we get our sort of house in order enough that that we have a bunch of things to to sort of offer and do because i envision ogm as as sort of like uh not just cleaner fish you know that that like the big the big grouper pulls up and the wrasses like bite off all the all the parasites and all that but rather like we're a little bit more like iron man where we can sort of attach rocket boosters and transform other entities by doing by by doing generative commons kind of jujitsu and and other things and i think we're still i think we're still in the conversational phase about what is that and i think we're about to transition into the just build the plane as we go phase of just do do rinse repeat and i just wanted to float an idea with with you all that that showed up sort of sunday and we talked about yesterday on the build build ogm call which is the notion of of creating within how do i phrase this creating within ogm or making a central project about gm kind of a pilgrimage to go interview interesting thinkers whose whose ideas nurture the thriving future that we're all talking about whether that's some aspect of data or there's a whole bunch of people who think they've got a solution to the world's problems right the the the two percent or the one percent solution or the triple bottom line or game b or whatever there's like a whole bunch of these and if if we invited them into an interview format and then performed some ogm magic on the conversation which means the first pass is hey we're going to record a zoom call and post that on youtube and that's that's a show but then i'm going to naturally be annotating my brain according to the content of what we're talking about and you know go go with that okay good and i'll and i post that publicly what other tools and what other kinds of analysis and annotation can we then add to that at one point max uh max harper took the transcript of one of our calls and put it in Miro and he's a wizard at Miro programming and he made a visualization where you could see the bouncing back and forth between because the the thursday formats were me pinging people from the chat you could just really see that and then you could also see where somebody said something that provoked a general discussion and it went you know and then the discussion went to lots of different people and then back to me and and that that was just one experiment using the artifact of the conversation so could we do that lather rinse repeat and keep keep building on you know adding these materials to the generative commons and then for example pushing at the edges of all of these people's thinking so hey game b it sounds like you're like this this this this is this like this or how is it different from this other community and then working the borders between these sets of ideas because there's just lots of communities that think they've got the answer and are not reaching out and looking at what how they overlap or don't overlap with other communities and if we manage to pull together better we I think our collective effect would be would be phenomenal and this doesn't mean we need to homogenize everybody's perspective but but a goal of this show would be to arrive at an ever improving sort of crystallizing version of how to fix all the damn problems that we're facing in a kind of a holographic holistic kind of way and I just explained it in in more academic terms than I kind of wanted to but but but I'm thinking that that we can start by just doing that and creating an agenda and then figure out what the roles are and so Stacy you started this call with like is there a dashboard where we can figure out how I might help for the next two hours because I'm good at some things and I don't know where to apply that skill so this project we're trying to boil down to some project plans like what does this look like in terms of how to get it done and then the project plans we're trying to boil down to okay ours objectives and key results so that we can begin to say okay good this week I'm these are my objectives and these are the results I'm aiming for in and post those publicly as Google does internally only so that anybody in OGM can look around and see and then if we can aggregate those things back into some like task list that then filters an air table or whatever else and Vincent just become an air table black belt but if we can take a tool that allows someone to say here's my suite of skills what tasks on the task board match my skills right now that'd be a cool thing to look at you know on a day when you want to want to put some time into into doing some of this so those moving parts are all wishful thinking at this point but that's where we're heading that like we're like we're moving toward that and if if like a show like that sounds like a bad idea speak up now because we're sort of building energy toward that kind of that kind of a thought I'm envisioning something very similar with little tweaks that I want to think more about well and and toward what you said a couple days ago in conversation like we need to take back the fourth estate one of the important things we could do is go talk to journalists journalism schools people who are rethinking journalism like the night foundation which has been pouring money into trying to figure out how to solve for journalism for years but host a conversation specifically about how journalism fits and and one of the reasons I care a lot about this shared data generative commons the the linked reliable warm contextualized data is that I think that journalists and educators and students and corporations and nonprofits and governments should all be nurturing common data we should just be improving the data that we use together and I don't know why we don't do that when when the wikipedia was born I was pretty sure that some educational institutions and some news organizations were going to make deals with wikipedia to offer like like to improve wikipedia over time as they did reporting or or classes on each topic this is never shown up instead we had grade school saying for you know preventing their kids from using wikipedia because it's cheating I'm like seriously people um so so how do we flip ourselves into this sort of mass collaboration mode around what we know so that we wind up learning knowing what we know and improving it and of course that's controversial there's going to be lots of places where where there'll be battles over information as there are just on wikipedia right controversial pages get blocked every now and then awesome but at least we're sort of out out visibly with each other in in these conversations well the reason I had asked you about the mandalay and the zotera I was thinking more in terms of um and that john just I heard the word censorship but I was thinking in terms of accountability and legislation and even requiring using programs like that uh so that there's a actual audit trail of things that people are saying or claiming which would be I just read heather cox richardson this morning about the the you know texas state basically all the democrats have left the state because texas is trying to run a whole bunch of voter suppression laws and then anti every basically the conservative agenda that's trying to just pass all the laws uh and it's like uh and just just back to the big lie uh and then also she writes about how biden gave a talk saying hey the big lie is in fact just that it's a big lie and we need to you know worry about it so if people needed to offer supporting evidence when they made claims for examples um it might be harder for them to make serious claims because what we're suffering from right now is that everybody famous gets airtime and when they're ballsy enough to to to make outright lies to to to to state lies it looks like real right because why would they lie like who'd be that motivated to lie that big and that's the benefit of the big lie um so yes so I I think we're sort of in similar territory there I'm going to have to fold up my pup tent pretty soon on this call because I've got to change to change locations for a panel I'm hosting on the half hour but any last thoughts for for this from the conversation we just had just thank you this was for me this was the best call it was so it was a great education thank you awesome that's great I love that thank you thanks for asking great questions and don't don't don't apologize for asking your questions Stacey and don't ever say this is the last question because I've been very sad I'll work out if you're ever asking the last question I'm not going to do it anyway but I'll try to stop saying it awesome thank you take care bye too bye thanks everybody and and thanks John let's let's be in touch I'll I'll I'll reach out perfect you can hear me that'd be great Michael uh look forward looking forward to it cool take care cool thanks everybody bye bye