I'm glad to see the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 of you, 10, 11. I'm not counting the volunteers. I'm really happy to see you this morning. Thank you for getting up on a Friday morning to come to a conference. I have announcements, as always. There are always announcements at the beginning. If you have not yet logged into the Wi-Fi, I'm not sure what's stopping you. But maybe you don't know the password. If geeks are us, a lowercase that R is a letter. Please don't do any hotspots in the venue because it messes up the Wi-Fi for everybody.  So please be kind to our bandwidth. You have any problems with the network or anything? The network operation center is just outside here, and you are welcome to stop by and talk to them. Badges you should be wearing yours. Most participants have white lanyards, like this. Staff wear yellow ones if you have any problems or concerns or need some help, see somebody wearing a yellow lanyard. Blue lanyards are workshop only, and the red ones are very special. If you do not want to have your photograph taken, do not want to appear on Twitter or Instagram or any place on the internet, please wear a red lanyard. To those of us who are using social media too, so if you are tweeting things out and taking pictures for Instagram, please don't post pictures of people wearing red lanyards. Food can be pre-ordered. The food court is upstairs on the first floor. There's coffee, there's tea, and there are two different kinds of lunch boxes, well, two different vendors of lunch boxes, selling more than two kinds of lunch boxes. You can pay with food tokens, which are available at the front counter where you registered, or with Paytm, but we don't take cash in the food court. You will have a schedule, and it looks like this. Only yours isn't on the clipboard. This is also our feedback form. So as you attend the events today, please take a minute to check off whether the content was relevant, whether you thought the speaker was presentable, and whether the work was at a level that was good for you. That helped us make better decisions for the next conference so that you will have an even better experience. I also wanna tell you that we have office hours today, so most of our speakers are spending two hours upstairs in room one where you can talk to them face to face and ask questions of their expertise. So please do take advantage of that. I'll do my best to let you know when each speaker is upstairs. And if you were upstairs, you would have seen a big lot of chairs up there. Not only are they considerable for eating, but they're a place where you can get together and run a discussion group of your own, the unconference part of our conference. Flash talks are today at 3.40. If you'd like to sign up for a flash talk, you'll have a maximum of five minutes, and you can talk about anything you like in the payments realm, except for hiring pitches and sales pitches. You can see me or Harshal in the other auditorium to sign up. Please try to do that by lunchtime. And that's pretty much everything for announcements. But I have some more time, so we're gonna play a game. Have you guys played Rock, Paper, Scissors? Yeah, everybody's played Rock, Paper, Scissors. No matter where I go in the world, everybody's played Rock, Paper, Scissors in Japan. It's such a big deal game.  So there's a way to play as a group. Has anybody ever played Rock, Paper, Scissors with more than one person? So you're all gonna play against me, and I have a prize. Last person standing gets 50 Japanese yen. I couldn't find 50 paisa, so 50 yen. It's one of Japan's lucky coins because it has a hole in it. So we're gonna play, you'll all be playing against me. So I'm not gonna do it the Japanese way because it won't make any sense to you. We'll do one, two, three, throw. Ready, hands up. One, two, three. All right, so if you're paper, you're out. If you're Rock, you're in. How do you guys handle ties? Play again. In Japan, ties are done. All right, ties can go. So if you have scissors or Rock, you can play again. If you have paper, put your hand down. Okay, hands up. One, two, three, go. Okay, so Rocks and Paper get to stay. Scissors are down. Again, one, two, three, go. Paper down. Scissors and Rock stay. Sorry, scissors down. Paper stay. Thank goodness I didn't add spock in this one. One, two, three, go. Okay, scissors and paper stay. Rock, you're covered. One, two, three, go. Paper down. Okay, so it's between you two. One of you is gonna win. Which is, what, like 25 rupees? I'm sorry, it's not a really great price. One, two, three, go. All right, scissors wins. Come collect your prize. It's a very pretty coin. It has flowers on it. You're very welcome. Congratulations, that's a good way to start the day, right? Winning a prize. We have five more minutes before our first talk. I wanna start on time so that the people on our live stream can actually watch the beginning of the talk. So, we're gonna do another thing. We're gonna stand up and stretch, because it's morning. Did you guys stretch this morning? Okay, good. Well, one person did, I didn't. So we're gonna stretch, because I need to stretch. So please stand up. Look, your body stretches and some balances.  But put your arms up and stretch. One side, the other side. Doesn't that feel good? Do you know that when animals do this, when the animals naturally stretch when they start moving after they've been sitting or lying down, and there's a special word for it. It's called pendiculation. It's a great word. All right, so stop stretching like this, and now we're gonna just one side. Bring your arms down and shake them a little bit. What? And while you're shaking those, you can take these. Do you guys ever go to the shopping mall or walk around and suddenly you find yourself kind of dull and you would just buy anything, like a zombie? So there's a way to get out of that, and it's to jump up and down. By bringing movement back to your body, you get out of what's called the grew and transfer. It's actually a thing that shopping mall designers do on purpose. They make shopping malls confusing so that you will end up in the shopping zone. It's terrible.  So next time you don't wanna be shopping anymore but you can't stop, jump up and down and then you'll be able to leave the store. I know it sounds really weird, but it's truly true.  I will introduce our first speaker. First talk this morning, in fact, our talks, both our talks this morning are about user design, and this one is about accessibility. Sunivas has been advocating accessibility for over a decade.  It's our first talk of the day. He's gonna cover the state of accessibility in payments and how you can build accessible payment experiences. Sunivas, thanks for helping make the world a better place for all of us. The slides want to show up until we get started with their talk, and then he's gonna still play with us, very good. Strong, I charged it over the night. Oops, okay, now what do we do? Anyone has a Mac charger? While it gets started, you know, what is it called? This is called situational disability, or you can also call it as technological disability. It's charging here, come on. Okay, good morning everybody. Am I audible enough? Firstly, if Srikanth and Abhishek are in this room, I just want to give a shout out and thanks to both these gentlemen for choosing this accessibility as a topic. Very much charging here, this is surprising. I'm not sure if it is still charging. Instead of saying Mac or Windows, inclusion, okay, finally. So are we, okay now? Yeah, good, sorry about that. Of course, it's beyond our control. Right, so I just wanted to give a shout out to Abhishek and Srikanth who actually reached out to me some time ago to see if I'm interested to talk about accessibility of the payments. Okay, and it's a very important topic. And to me, it's not about the importance or anything, but something I'm passionate about. It's, I'm happy to see that Hasglick agreed to do this on a mainstream conference, which is actually a valid thing, than doing this kind of talks in a excluded or separate conferences related to accessibility alone. So in next 30 minutes or so, we will be talking about, I do, Christian has done a wonderful introduction already, but I will just do once again to talk about myself. And then we'll talk about what is currency state of today and then we'll talk about cards and wallets and digital transactions and so on. So before that, I just want to give you all a quick question I want to ask you all. If I give you all a blank paper and say it is a newspaper, what would be your reaction? So that could be the same thing which applies to accessibility, which we are going to talk about today. And before that, I like Srikanth has made some disclaimers yesterday. I'd also make a couple of disclaimers. Firstly, is there a sign language interpreter in this group? I believe no. And if any of you have a hard of hearing, my sincere apologies. You may want to read the full text later, which will be posted on my website. If there are any visually impaired in the audience, I would actually speak out most of my slides, so you shouldn't generally having any problem. So visually impaired could be not necessarily people who have got the eyesight problem, but primarily who would be sitting in the last room. For myself, I am an accessibility advocate like Christian has mentioned, and I have a day job at Informatica. And I'm also founder of something called Servo Inclusion, where, which is a platform that I use to raise awareness about accessibility and not just raising awareness in a respectable way, but I'm a kind of shameless person to tell anybody, oh, we should together work for accessibility. I don't mind if other person feels me saying that, oh, this guy is bugging me or bothering me, but as long as it's a consumer application, if there are people who actually use these applications, I do not hesitate to give them feedback. But what I generally do is, I try and give them a constructive feedback so that they not only find a problem statement in whatever I tell them, but also a kind of solution how they can fix their problems. Because I personally believe accessibility is not something that developers do it intentionally. And guess, who do I blame? Let's say, if an application, if a website is not accessible, who do you blame? Who do you blame? Do you blame the developer? Do you blame the product manager? I don't blame the developer. I actually blame his or her teacher, who actually taught them HTML, CSS, JavaScript, et cetera. Because unfortunately, I wish if somebody would disagree with me, but most of the institutes today, which teach you HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, and so on or any programming language, they do not talk about you of usability, guess of standards or forget about you have accessibility anyway. Did you all agree or anybody who would be happy to disagree? So there is no sound, that means everybody agrees, right? Very good. All right, so pray to my work at Informatica. I was formally, it's interesting, I started my journey into accessibility while I was working for a nonprofit organization called the National Association for the Blind, where we've actually created a beautiful website for the organization and at the end of the day, we realized our own students who are people with blindness cannot use the website. So that is which has triggered me to start working in the area of accessibility and I started working something called Barrier Break, which is an accessibility consulting firm in Mumbai. And then of course I moved on and worked at various companies like Yahoo, PayPal, HCL, through them, I got a chance to work with Google and so on. And since my passion is about raising awareness about accessibility, I also do a consulting activity with somebody like Precut Solutions, Mnet and so on, a few companies. So I'm open to help anybody who want to bring change in their culture of working, culture of building products. So I'm also an active participant at Accessibility Guidelines Working Group at W3C and I'm also a member of something called International Association of Accessibility Propulsion. Some of them are hidden because the screen size I don't know what is going on here. But do you all remember, any of you remember this?  Yes. There is a reason why I'm actually showing this old currency. If you actually notice, you will see the different dimensions and sizes in the earlier currency. It may be one paisa coin, two paisa coin, five paisa, 10 paisa, 20 paisa used to have a different design, 25 paisa used to be very small and 50 paisa used to be bigger and one rupees all together bigger and two rupees has a different dimension and five rupees is a thickness. Earlier it was easy to, for people to identify the currency. But off late for some time. Now this is a picture I have taken from a change.org campaign which is being done by some of our colleagues in the industry. Because if you look at the current year of today, forgot about people with blindness or low vision. I have seen my mother having a conversation with the auto driver. Hey, you're supposed to pay me five rupees and why are you giving me 50 paisa? That poor guy actually gave her five rupees coin. Okay, and she is looking at it with her hand and think, oh it must be a 50 paisa coin. If people who have got all the eyesight and mainstream people are getting confused with the currency. And now thanks to the new currency like 2,000 rupees, 500 and new 50 rupees. I don't know how many of you have seen, even the 200 rupees note. It's all, do you think they look like currency or they look like what, they are lottery tickets. Right? So we are lobbying to work with RBI to bring back the real good currency of different sizes because no matter how technology is evolved, there are of course applications which can recognize your currency and all. But not everyone could be afford to use the internet even today. Or not they may be aware of how to use them at all. So the problem today is that all the currency coins, if you look at, there is no difference between 50 paisa and 5 rupee coin. There is no difference between 20 rupee and 2000 rupees note. Right? So this is something which we are actively lobbying with the RBI and in government of India to see what changes can be made. If you ever got a chance to talk to anybody about this, please do so. Do your best, fight whatever you want to do. Let's all together do whatever we can. And now ATMs. ATM is, how many of you don't use ATM in your life? What is the problem with the ATMs today? There are, in spite government has the regulations, RBI and IPA has got the clear regulations to further manufacturers to develop the accessible ATMs. So accessible ATM does not mean only having the talking features, okay? Because accessibility is not just for blind people. Vasu is standing here and talking, being a person with low vision does not mean accessibility is only for people with low vision. Right? It could be for anybody, people who are in the wheelchairs, people who are the hard of hearing, people who are the cognitive disabilities. And I'll give you an example. Now most of these ATMs, if you see today, at some point it will tell you, welcome to Access Bank ATMs. Then after some time, after a few tasks that you have done, it will tell you, please enter your secret code. Thank you for using Access Bank ATMs. Is this an accessible ATM? Yes or no? Yes? No, I need an answer. No, because it is partially giving you an instruction like welcome messages and all. But it should, if you're a real accessible ATM means, it should have adjustable height, it should have buttons that can be accessed by blind people, okay, and so on. So it has, there are the clear guidelines how to design an accessible ATM, okay. And there is also a website called TalkingATMIndia.org, which is maintained by some of our friends.  They maintain the list of accessible ATMs. The data will be provided by their respective banks but they cross the country. Okay, they're using cards and POS machines. So you have heard a lot of things about this point of sale machines and cards and payment gateways and all yesterday and some of them are going to be today as well. And also that includes the privacy, security and all. So let's see what are the things about these? Cards, you don't need to deal with that inaccessible physical currency which is the good news. But there are few things. When you go to a shop, I know in the United States and few countries where you actually do check out on your own. But does it happen really in India? No, we just go to the counter and give them our card and they will do the calculations and they'll take your card and they'll swipe and give you, right? So in that there are few things involved related to privacy.   You have to spell out your pin to the merchant which can be had by somebody who is around you as well. And what if after the transaction is done if somebody just takes away your card? Who got to know your code? There can be a choice chances of misuse, all right? And if it's a blind person forget, there is no option but to tell the pin to the merchant. Because firstly, you don't know what kind of machine that person is using, POS machine. There are two or three varieties today. And you really have to trust that merchant. He has entered the right amount. Because until the transaction is happened you will not get to know what is the amount made until you get your own SMS, right? If the merchant wisely put the right amount well and good but accidentally or intentionally if you put an additional amount, that's it. You only get to know after you get the SMS. Then you'll have to do all your fights. What could be solutions for it? Like somebody yesterday said instead of the POS machines they use the mobile applications, which is a good thing. Because in every mobile phone today whether you're using Android or IOS, you have a screen reader. If you are using Android, you have a talk back feature which is ready to use. So you can even ask the merchant, I want to turn on the talk back before I use your application, okay? And the screen reader can come in hand if you are using a mobile application. But if the government regulates or something happens if you still want to use only the POS machines then you have to add a screen reader to it so that people should be able to use on their own and that should have the real accessible buttons. I have also added voice recognition. The reason because as I said it's not about only blind people, right? People who can't use their hands, how do they activate? How do they enter them out? How do they use that machine? So they should be able to dictate, right? Because things if you feel that it is an expensive affair it's not going to happen. Then what you should be doing is like how the Paytm does, okay? Unity sender OTP, the user which also has the amount in it so that you give back that OTP to the merchant you will enter done, okay? So that's the technological solution that you can use. The reason why I mentioned about the card details to be sent to the user as and when needed because if I'm using a, if I'm dropping something online I need to check out, okay? And what if I don't remember my card information? I want to retrieve my card information immediately. How do I do that? I don't have brain, I'm blind. So I should be able to send some instructions to my bank using some SMS format or something like that or clicking on some option. I should be able to get my information in a secured manner not the CVV code and all because CVV, it's expected people should be able to remember that much at least. But the card number, the sexy and digits are something that has to be sent to the user securely. Wallets, see we have so many wallets today. Paytm, pay you money with actually one of the sponsors for this event Moby Quake and quite a number of wallets you have. It's for wallets are in a way very self-serviced. People can use it themselves, okay? But the problem here is that the interfaces are inaccessible with due respect, since we have reached out using several channels as well and the public channel is good to have send messages to as many, through as many people as possible but if somebody from Paytm is around Paytm Android app used to be accessible until two months ago but now with the recent update it is slightly broken. So if anybody from Paytm in this room you should actually go back and alert your teams if or if somebody has a connection with the Paytm you should actually go and do that because Paytm is something which commonly uses today across the board and I almost use it every day, okay? Especially when I ride on the Uber I just prefer to use my Paytm link with Uber and also I use them with big basket, yeah? Now another problem with wallets is you have a food court here, right? So how do you know what wallet do they accept? Do keep every merchant keep telling you I accept Paytm, I accept Moby Quake. When you go to the counter will they tell you? It will actually displayed there. But what if a person who is blind how would they know what wallets are being accepted with? So there is a technological solution I'm proposing which is actually, in fact we are trying to do this kind of a hack, part of a hackathon which is upcoming in the month of May.  I should be able to get that push notification. Using what APIs we need to figure that out. How much time do I have? Okay. So we're talking about electronic transfers like NEFT, IMPS, RTGS and so on, all these things. It's again self-serviced and people, it's actually far more easier for even for people including cognitive disabilities because you'll have a familiar interfaces. You don't need to deal with new interfaces every day because you might end up using one bank or two banks but you don't, every day you don't change banks, right? So, and thanks to whatever reasons, but nowadays if you look at something like SBI, HDFB, HSBC and ICICI, lot of bank interfaces are fairly, usable if not really accessibility compliant, but they're fairly usable. But what we need to keep in mind is that these channels are actually growing. These channels are modernizing, in the name of modernizing people are actually forgetting the basics and standards. I'll tell you accessibility is not a rocket science. Accessibility is all about writing a semantic code and adhering to the standards, okay? And now I will tell you one simple inaccessibility problem of this conference, okay? Christian has mentioned the people who wear the red linears are not to be what? Photograph. Do you know blind people can also take the photograph? Yes, but the technology, it will tell you there are one person, two people, three people or hundred people, but it will not tell you which person is wearing the red linears, okay? So, if I have taken a photograph of any of the red linears, it's your choice, I can't help. It's all about standards and basics, right? So, what people need to keep in mind is that when they're developing the interfaces, they need to make sure they meet the web access, web content accessibility guidelines or if they are developing the mobile applications. Interestingly, lot of these mobile developer frameworks, like if you are developing for Android or iOS, there are a lot of accessibility features which are inbuilt, all that our developer friends has to leverage on them. With due respect, but I have seen at least two good extent of developers, their mindset is they want to complete the building the product. Can we just pause and see, am I writing the right code? Or even if I am copy pasting a code, am I copy pasting from a right source? There is nothing wrong in copy pasting unless you are going for an exam. There is nothing wrong, okay? But you need to copy paste from the right source. That is the reason you have all these open source, frameworks, open source projects. You are free to copy paste, but please copy paste from the right source. There are a lot of accessibility plugins. There are a lot of accessibility components written which people can reuse. The problem with these electronic transfers is interesting. It's not the problem of our developers or technologists. It's the problem of banks. So I have a friend who happens to be blind and who is a advocate. So if he is an advocate, practicing advocate, do you agree that he is a decently, decent educated person? He goes to a bank and let's try to open an account. And they tell him, you do use a thumb impression. So we consider you as the illiterate. So we cannot open a bank account. What do you do with them? So there are, it's also essential that bank finding institutes has to sensitize their employees in dealing with people with disabilities. They're not necessarily, they need to give them an extra banking facilities. Nothing really, nobody's asking for it. But whatever you're giving it to everybody, you should actually give it to people with disabilities as well. And there was also one time banks were saying, okay, if you want to avail a bank account, you come with somebody else and we open a joint account. Well, I'm a single, not really, I'm married, we have two kids, but what if I'm a single person who is living only in my family, right? So this is the situations in the banking sector, but when the whole, if the facilities are given and electronic transfers are far more easy, assuming our interfaces are accessible, are there any developers in this room? You know, all you need to do is, very simple thing. Well, in the next slide, we're going to talk about using the automation tools and all that, but before that, all you need to do is that, when you actually, at the testing time of your product, for 20 minutes, you let the, as good as your tea break, unplug your mouse and use your product just using the keyboard. You don't need to experience a screen reader or anything. You don't need to become blind. You don't need to become a cognitive disabled or anything. The first thing you use is, use your own product just using the keyboard. And you will be able to address at least 60% of the accessibility problems. Okay, the major problems are, in this modern application development area is, we all use model dialogues, right? The alert dialogue boxes and all you use, right? But, do you set the really tap focus onto that boxes all the time? Though the model dialogue, firstly it cannot, if it can be accessible, activated using keyboard well and good, once it is activated, that your focus has to come onto that model dialogue. Not, it should not remain on your parent window, right? So, your first testing tool will be your keyboard. Forget your mouse for about 30 minutes and use your own product or whatever you are using. Accessibility of real time messaging, so something like, because in the gaming gateways, everything happens in the real time. Like, in between you will also show a message saying that, do not wait to refresh onto your browser, do not use back button and all that, okay? If that messaging is not accessible, somebody who is using a screen reader, and if he tries to, if he says that, okay, nothing is happening. If you use a refresh button or back button, the transaction is gone. Maybe money must have detected already, whatever, right? And another thing is that, when you actually showing up a dialogue, something is happening. Even when the transaction is successful, or when you are actually asking him to do an additional level of authentication, that messaging has to be exposed to assistive technologies. Using whatever code you are using, if it is a model dialogue or a real time, new page or whatever, that has to be exposed. And the reason why I mentioned about accessibility of promotional material. How many of you do receive emails from all these payment gateways, 80% offer, 50% offer, 30% offer, whatever, or 5% cash back? Do you all get this email? Yes? Have you ever seen that email in a browser which did not load the images? What will you see? Will that be useful? Then that is how a screen reader user will see your promotional material. If you actually send out an email like that, an entire content embedding onto your image, and sending it to a user, and if user is a blind and using a screen reader, all they will see is a one line of single chunk code that talks about a part of your image. That's it. If you call that as a promotion, I'm sorry, I can't use the promotion. So if you want to really, I'm sure there are a lot of marketing teams also sitting here out here. If you want to reach out to more customers, you have to make your marketing promotional material accessible. And let me tell you guys, to make anything accessible, either your promotional material or your website, you don't need to compromise on design. You can use as beautiful things as you want. It can be as fantastic, as beautiful, as nice looking everything.  And it's also important to generate the accessible invoice or receipts, because as the invoice is as important to you, it could be important to people with disabilities as well. It's not about only the payment gateway, the providers to make their products accessible. It's also important, the people who are actually implementing it. If I'm using pay you money's gateway, I have to make sure that button that they provide or the interface that I create using their platform, I create a accessible interface. It's not necessarily that only my cart is accessible, but the button, I will just embed a image of pay you money and leave it there. It's not going to be accessible. So it's important for both the parties, whoever is using the payment gateway and whoever is providing the payment gateway. And especially the reason why I've chosen to talk about pay you money as a name is because I also see a lot of nonprofit organizations, especially working in the disability sector, do use pay you money quite a bit, and especially to raise the donations and all. And I believe they have an interesting thing to use this as their payment platform. And another reason to use their name is, thanks to them for sponsoring this event. Okay, the redirection. Redirection also need to be seamless. If you are actually redirecting a page which is taking minutes and hours together, it's going to be a problem. So during that process, it has to send the messaging. What state is it? Like if you are actually installing a Windows software, you keep listening to some buzz, right? Why do they do that? Because they want everybody to know what is the status of the installation. So quickly about automated testing tools. There is something called, all of you know about JSLint, right? So similarly, there is also something called JSLint.org which will let you test against your code while you're actually coding on the fly. Or other simple tool is something called AXE, Axe. It's by Deque systems.  It's a plugin for Chrome and Firefox. Once you enable that, you use that Axe from your developer console and it will show you the number of accessibility issues. Very simple format and very simple language including links to the techniques. So these are a few things which you can do for the accessibility evaluation. These are the simple things. Use the WCAG checklist, which is available on many websites including mine. And run the automated testing tools, something like Axe. And as I said, use the keyboard alone. Then use the screen. If possible, there's a final thing. You also, you can also start using some screen rating software. Like NVDA is non-visual desktop access, the free screen reader available for Windows. And if you're using Mac, voiceover comes for free. So we can have a couple of questions if you want. Or I'm available in the office hours from 11 to one. So we can also talk there. Even if you want to look at something, the demo or something, we can do that. Okay, any questions for now? No questions? Oh, we have a question here. User can use just the keyboard to check his website. Do you suggest something similar for apps? On the mobile device? Yeah. If you want, you can add an USB keyboard and use the keyboard. Okay, our second, because nowadays every phone, you really need to spend an extra money for it. All the phones, the screen rating software comes inbuilt. If you're using an Android phone, go to accessibility and turn on the talk back. And then how it becomes is, usually you activate everything using the single tap, right? So when you activate the talk back, in the single tap, it will announce the option to you using the gestures, okay? When you double tap on the element, it will activate. So you just need to remember that part. But you can start using a screen reader on your own. But that would be the easiest testing for mobile phones. In Android, you have talk back. If you're using an iOS, you have voiceover. Okay, thank you. No problem. Okay, so we're going to talk about resets or invoices. Are there any final points? Like, if it's just a screen reader, readable, because it's a PDF resets or invoices, I mean, it can be read by a screen reader. Are there any other things that could be added? Other things, you need to make sure your font sizes are good enough. Okay, because apart from blind people, they're all the people with low vision who should be able to use it. So you need to be careful about the color contrast of it. Okay? You cannot just put a yellow text on a white background. All right? So other than that, it should be in general good. And one of the problems that I see with a lot of these invoices or the even performance is that they type a lot of terms and conditions. I don't know, even the mainstream users, do you ever be able to read them? There have been such a font sizes of maybe six or seven. So, let's be true, especially when you're applying for a bank loan, have you ever read the terms and conditions on your own? That's where we go. Thank you. Okay, anybody else? Yeah, as part of the WTOG guidelines, there are also, do they also recommend set up for a case in terms of automating this whole processing process? Okay. So W3C's Web Accessibility Initiative group runs something called Evaluation and Format Working Group that has a set of automated tools. That's having said that, including W3C, as an accessibility advocates, we say that you can do the automated testing of only 30 to 40%. You cannot do 100% of accessibility testing. Okay, there need to be a manual intervention, possibly including people with disabilities. Okay, the reason I'll tell you is, okay, accessibility guidelines will tell you, you need an alternate text for image. And if you are using a, if I put my photograph, all text is Abhishek, the automated tool will pass it, no doubt about that. But does it meaningful? So, for accessibility testing, you cannot do an 100% automation. To maximum extent of 40 to 50%, you can automate, but manual intervention is equally important. One more thing when, you know, we were trying to do the accessibility of one of our applications. So, the mobile application, and we were trying to, you know, see that check mark everything what the application is. There were challenges because there were certain things that we should not do in mobile applications because it's in the compacts or anything like that, which was defined as part of the web guidelines. So, is there any, you know, are there any work in terms of defining what should be applicable for mobile? Not sure if you're... Yeah, no. Versions for mobile. Okay, if you are following the conversations, but last week, WCAG 2.1 is becoming candidate recommendation by W3C, which also includes guidance for mobile and so on. So, you can actually, that actually addresses some of these questions because there's a mobile task force which is actually worked very hard and solved some of these concerns. So, and there is also some of us in the industry have put together something called mobile accessibility practices. It's available on my website as well, which we actually written for government of India, but yeah, because WCAG, web candidate accessibility guidelines is not really meant for mobile at that point in time in 2008 because mobile is not that popular at that point. But now, they've also addressed quite a bit about the mobile accessibility in 2.1, which is right now in the candidate recommendation. You can have a look at that. Make sense? I think we've about reached our five. Thank you so much. That was a really interesting talking. It showed me a lot of problems that we're having. Let's give a bit round of applause for the two of us. Thank you so much, everybody. Our next speaker is gonna set up now. And while she's getting ready, I'd like to remind you of a few things that are happening today that aren't really on the schedule itself. In addition to office hours upstairs in room one, we also have the APSECO security clinic. If you want to have your product reviewed for security, you need to register first. We tweeted out the URL yesterday for the signup so we can walk up and I'm sure that they will get you a signup. But they need to have access to your data to look at it first. So please do sign up for that if you want a security check. Don't forget to visit our sponsors. They're all out there sitting at their booths and they're sad and lonely. Today at least there aren't all those lovely, beautiful, shiny saris out there distracting us. But we do have, in auditorium one today, a children's of preschool cultural event. So at some point we're probably gonna have to close the door so that we don't get their joyful noise coming into our auditorium. Do a different stretch. So earlier we did a standing moving stretch. The nine people who were in here earlier got that. And we're gonna do some balance. If anybody stand up please because you can't balance while you're sitting. Fall on the outside of your foot. The outside of the other foot. Really using your ankles here. So we'll get your ankles going today and then you can get them to rest for the rest of the day while you sit. Now if you find it hard to just stand like this because this ankle is actually doing all the work right now. It looks like this one's busy but it's the one that's standing. It's using a lot of tiny little muscles to keep you from falling out. I'm sure you guys all do yoga and you probably do that standing in your seat. Although if you have your shoes on you might not want to do that. It's hard for me to do this with a microphone and talk. Okay, so before you sit we're gonna practice sitting. Not all the way down.  Okay, go ahead, you can sit down. We're almost ready. See, this is kind of comfortable. I might just stay here. You guys almost ready? See, you guys can't do this. Ooh, the other hall must have let out. Hi guys, welcome. We're getting ready for our lecture. We're not quite there yet. Have a seat, you missed the stretching. Looks like it's gonna take another minute or two. So let me run through announcements again. Let's see. Oh, I haven't mentioned the Chatham House rules yet this morning. So anytime we do a non-filmed session like a birds of feather session or an off the record session we run by something called the Chatham House rules. And the Chatham House rules allow anonymity to people making comments. So what that means to you is that if you're tweeting or sending things out on social media you can say something was said. You can't say who said it. So you can't say, oh, Tink just mentioned the Chatham House rules. You would say something like the Chatham House rules were mentioned. So if we're running a BOF later, which we are, of course, and you decide that you want to tweet or share it on Facebook or whatever, please don't attribute who says what. But you can say what was said. This allows us to, well, all of us, all of us to speak more freely without worrying about the consequences of what you say. Try the series that you speak. I only see two people, nope, three. Three people in here wearing red lanyards. Nope, five. Yeah, there are a few. You're allowed to look at them but you are not allowed to photograph them. Please do not photograph people wearing red lanyards. That applies to us and our official photography but it also applies to everybody's tweets and Instagram posts and everything else that you put out there. So please respect their privacy by avoiding pictures of them. Of course, if they are standing in a big group and the group is getting a picture, I am not sure what happens then. People with red lanyards stay out of the group photos if you don't want to be in them. All right, I think we are ready now. So let me introduce our next speaker. So I've been told that I need to remind you office hours for Srinivasu are 11 o'clock to one o'clock. So if you have accessibility questions, please do go talk to him face to face, upstairs in room one. Now I'd like to introduce our next talk, Rethinking Payment User Experience for Emerging Markets. Chiatra is the president and co-founder of Simple. She's gonna explain how lack of trust is an economic problem and how Indian merchants are making user experience changes to address that. Chiatra. Good morning, everybody. So my name is Chiatra. As the founder of Simple, so what Simple does is we are selling peace of mind to users. That's the business we are in. We are a fintech company. So I thought we'll spend some time today talking about user experience and when we speak about user experience, trust is a very important aspect that often gets missed. So let's just spend some time talking about it today. So just to get a sense here, how many of us in this auditorium would be comfortable opening up our home to a stranger? One person, that's good. What about, let's say you're in a rush and your car is not starting, how many of you would be comfortable hitchhiking or flagging a ride, like a few men in the room, any women, understandably so? So you see that, you know, like speaking about fear, I thought I'll just say this, put it out there. Apparently putting it out there helps ease the fear. Fear of public speaking is supposed to be second to fear of death. I don't know what those guys were talking about. Right now, all I feel is butterflies in my tummy. So please bear with me while we go through this presentation. So speaking of fear, how many of, let's have a show of hands here. How many of you think that most people can be trusted? 15% roughly? How many of you trust the police? Institutional trust, political parties, election results? How many of you think that we would be better off as a society if we were to live in a much more trustworthy society? A lot of you. So I cannot change these slides. The clicker's not working, but it's working for the hitchhiking with the stranger. Anyway, so sounds like the experts at Harvard University academic researcher, Professor Putnam, who is the Professor of Public Policy agrees with you that we would be much better off if we were living in a much more trustworthy society than the one we live in today. In other words, trustworthiness is really a big deal. But when we think about starting new businesses, how many of us think about trust? When we think about design, when we think about applying technology to solve problems, how many of us really think about trust? So that's the one piece that I want to spend some time talking about today. So, you know, social trust is a very nebulous thing. Like what does it even matter? And how is it correlated to startups or the economy? So there is an institute in UK called the behavioral insights institute, also called, the nickname is Nudge Team, right? They help the UK government when it comes to tricky tax reforms or implementing public policy, which is going to find it difficult to gain public acceptance. So they conducted a study and they found that trust was not only them, but many, many economists have conducted a study on this topic as to how trust correlates to GDP per capita. And as you can see, the one that's missing, that the highest dot up there is Norway.  So there is a clear correlation that emerges between trust and GDP per capita. However, please note the interesting deviations here. Thankfully for us, India, despite being on the lower quadrant of GDP per capita, is fairly decent on trust. The interesting thing about India is that Indians have more trust amongst individuals and in pockets as opposed to institutions. As was evidenced by the audience here, how many of us trust our political parties or the government? China, on the other hand, is very high on trust for a country that is fairly low on the GDP per capita. United States, you see, is on the other side. They're very high on the GDP per capita, but somewhat average on trust. What that means is that the designs or the innovation, the psychology of design that applies in China and in the United States cannot just be copy-pasted into India. It will not work here, right? You have to design something specific for India as an emerging market. So when social trust is low, small businesses find it extremely hard to take off, right? That's the friction it creates. New business initiatives, they find it hard to get off the ground. What that means is as a startup, you might be able to get to your first movers and your early adopters, but to really get to scale, you cannot do that unless you solve for trust. So I thought as part of today's talk, maybe we can spend some time looking at some of the startups that have solved for trust in a very unique way and see if there are any insights that we can derive from these companies which are not necessarily in the payment space and maybe they'll give us some food for thought as to how we could apply it in our own lives as payment companies, right? Simple, we like to talk about trust and how we solve for it. So these are some excerpts of stuff that we keep discussing at work often. So yeah, just one more, I guess, quote from David Halpern who is the CEO of the Behavioral Insights team is that trust is a way more powerful predictor of future national growth rate than levels of human capital or skills in the population, right? So I guess India has placed it a reasonably good spot. Okay, so just before we get into the examples of how companies have solved for trust, Abhishek of ASGIC had asked me, what is trust, like what is social trust, right? So I looked it up like what is social trust and the best definition I could come up with was social trust is kind of like dark matter. 80% of the universe is made up of dark matter but we do not even realize that there was something called dark matter and that it really affects our lives until recently. So social trust is kind of like that, right? It's there, it's super important but it's not obvious and we don't give importance to it. How many of you have used Ola Auto? Good, how many of you are from Bangalore or Chennai? Excellent, so five years back if I had asked you, would you prepare for your auto ride? What would your answer have been? You don't trust the auto driver, right? In the scheme of trust, the auto drivers are probably at the lowest, the bottom end of the totem pole. Same here, right? I would have said buzz off, right? Forget about it. However, today we are obviously preparing for auto ride and taxi ride. Five years back also it was not just the auto when I still remember that when my mother used to call for a taxi, she would threaten the travel agent. You guys remember travel agent? The dinosaurs that used to exist before Ola and Uber.  So however today that's something that we take for granted. And how has Ola or Uber managed to achieve this? Of course they've done many things. They've applied technology very smartly but one of the most clever innovations that they have made was they came up with that two-way rating system, right? So earlier what used to happen was if the guy had a rigged meter like my most vivid memory of the auto and I was discussing this with my colleague Roshan yesterday was like constantly observing the meter. Like is it going to jump? Is it rigged? Is it going to go from 25 to 30 suddenly? Let me catch the guy red-handed, right? Today none of that happened. So what has changed, right? If there was a rigged meter, the worst case, the downside for this guy was at the end of the ride he would get a tongue-lashing from me and we would spend 15 minutes arguing but he would walk away with his money and I would leave. And let's say I had hired a taxi and I had made the guy wait and when I show up late and the guy is obviously disgruntled with me and says something, I would have given him a tongue-lashing saying that how dare you lowly driver talk to me? I have the right to be laid, right? There was no repercussions. There was no down-style for bad behavior. What was the small little hack of having a two-way rating system and making it known publicly and making it kind of mandatory at the end of each ride just the way they designed it ensured that certain repercussions got built in. The layer of anonymity got stripped, right? So now I know that I am going to be judged based on my behavior by this driver. It kind of became an equalizer, right? He was not a lowly driver anymore. He was the one who was judging me so I better behave well with him. And similarly, vice versa, right? He started keeping the car clean, started, you know, being polite. So the whole relationship got incentivized to move towards good behavior. So I think one of the most important things or the takeaways for me when I think about Ola Huber and what they have done today is they thought about the role that incentives play in making good behavior happen, right? There are certain rules of engagement that you would desire in a system. Now how do you ensure that you pay attention that the design that you are creating is it going to adversely select for behavior or positively select for behavior? So if you have designed it for the right incentive, then you are good. Let us take another example, right? At the beginning of the talk, I think there was one gentleman here who said that you would be comfortable letting strangers into his house. Are you a host on Airbnb? Yes, so I'm sure whenever you do have a big house, you'll probably start hosting. So, you know, like, I think it was in 2008 when Airbnb had just started and the founders were going around Silicon Valley asking investors, Sandhill Road to invest in them and their pitch basically was that we'll convince people around the world, like perfectly normal people like each one of us in this room who did not raise our hands, who are not willing to let strangers into our house. These guys said that we'll convince them to put up pictures of their homes on the World Wide Web and invite perfect strangers to spend the night at their home, right? Like, obviously Silicon Valley did not buy it.  They created the website. They convinced some crazy first movers to create listings on their website but they found that bookings were not coming at the same rate as they expected. So then, you know, they took a step back. They analyzed what was going on. The few listings that they had, they looked at what were the listings that were getting slightly better results than the ones that were not. They formed a hunch. Maybe it had something to do with the pictures that were posted, right? So just to verify this hunch, the founders got onto a plane, flew from SF to New York, took out their DSLRs, went door to door taking pictures of the houses, high quality pictures of the listings that were already there in New York City. Bookings started flowing in. Sandhill Road came knocking and today Airbnb market capitalization is higher than Hilton and Marriott hotels, right? Airbnb, you have a 10 year old company, Hilton and Marriott are 90 plus years old. That is the power of design thinking when you really apply your mind and think about the psychology behind the decision making. So I think what these guys did was they took a step back and they thought what is the psychology behind the decision making of my user here, right? So it is going to be that one thing that will tip them in favor of making this booking. Closer to home, how many of you guys have noticed the quality of pictures on fresh menu, right? You would agree that I think one thing fresh menu did right, especially early on I remember distinctly is the e-mailer would show up in my inbox and I would get hungry. The pictures were that good, right? So pictures matter and that can be a tipping point into creating that trust that hey my food is delicious, right? Creating that desire, right? So I think it is important to understand the psychology of the decision making process. Now Airbnb is a great example and it is hugely inspiration to us at Simple because this is not the only design thinking inside the behavioral insight that they derived. There were many more, right? Simple things like they realized that getting the host to talk a little bit about their personal interest on the profile page is going to help future guests create a personal connect with the person and make them more comfortable and go ahead and make the booking. And of course they too came up with a two way rating system and designed it brilliantly to make sure that you know that is the virtuous cycle of design, right? If I at home I may not even fold my sheets. I get up daily, I get out of bed I get to work, I go back, my bed is unmade. But when I go and stay in an Airbnb I make it a point every single time to fold my sheets to leave my room needs. Because I know that I am going to be rated, I know that I am going to be just and the next time I travel I do not want to be embarrassed by a potential host denying me you know denying me a reservation because I do not have a great rating, right? So just by creating so once again you have incentives aligning the incentive and understanding the psychology of the user's purchase decision. Those are the two takeaways for us from Airbnb. Now let us come Uber and Airbnb are brilliant Silicon Valley based companies, let us look closer to home. Can you guys think like anybody here just trivia question what do you think was that one pivotal hack or innovation that made e-commerce take off in India bingo and what did cash on delivery solve for right? Because the natural order of business was when I make a purchase goods and money they need to be exchanged simultaneously but with digital commerce you make the purchase first and the good show up later obviously there is a tough deficit I like it or not what if the item get damaged it does not fit etc etc the best way to solve for it is to make allow for the customer to pay on delivery. Now when Flipkart decided to implement pay on delivery they looked at what will be options available and cash turned out to have the best user experience, right? Everybody trusted cash users trusted cash tell us trusted cash there was a perceived sense of security around it and more importantly from the user perspective a perceived sense of control right and that is why cash on delivery to this day 10 years from when Flipkart started is the predominant mode of payment online and as people I mean I know in a payment conference talking about cash is probably heresy right but that is the competition that we have to be for all of us here if we are doing digital payment the real competition is cash ok so what are all like just to summarize some of the things that we have learnt till now right pay attention to what behaviour your system design incentivizes think first principles ignore conventional wisdom so like for example conventional wisdom in case of Airbnb was that nobody is going to let a stranger into their home however by applying design cleverly they were able to incentivize and create value for the same thing that went against conventional wisdom right when you know when we were starting a simple conventional wisdom was that all Indians are crooks do not give them credit right but that is exactly what we have done and we are successful today so conventional wisdom does not necessarily mean if the truth I think it is important to figure out what is the psychology behind the user's decision and how can you design your technology end to end again when you think about design I think one mistake that we make is the only thing about UI right it is not about the prettiness of the design it is about end to end system design like every little detail that goes from pre purchase during purchase to post purchase if you are talking about payment right so now let us look at something so basically what we have established till now is Ola, Uber Twiggy, Flipkart Freshmenu etc they are all continuously innovating on design to solve for right and I think the question in front of all of us today who are in the payments of the digital money space is how can we work with merchants very closely to solve for some of this so let us look at something that you know when Twiggy and Zomato well Zomato came much later but when Twiggy had started and they were looking at they were getting people to order food on the app to me it sounded like it is the most convenient thing to do right like you are sitting at work why bother getting out let me just order but then there were a lot of people I was one of the first movers or the early adopters but there were many like Twiggy at that point where they needed to scale they needed to capture that next level of customers and when they looked into what was it that was stopping some people from ordering they realized was that 45 minute window from order placement to the guy coming to your doorstep with the food was a black box right there was just no and the one of our merchant partners in fact told us that about bulk of the calls that they get from customers is asking about order status during that period right so what they did was they solved for it by giving a little more transparency now on Twiggy you can see when the order was accepted whether the order was accepted by the restaurant or not when the delivery boy showed up what route he is taking to get to you the whole thing so one is not only did Twiggy by doing this give more comfort to that user who was reluctant because of this black box situation but also they saved on cost the load on their customer support team decreased and they could use it for some better purposes so they like their customers in other way so I think one thing for us in payments to think about by taking the example of Twiggy is that often times when you think of payments you think about just the point of sale like you complete the payment and you are done but truly speaking the transaction itself has a life cycle right there is a pre-purchase purchase and a post purchase scenario to the transaction now what if those of us in payments just open up our minds and think is there a possibility to weave payments into the fabric of the transaction can it be woven into the life cycle of a transaction what if instead of a point in time you could place a hold on the user's account in terms of money when the transaction is made and only once the order is delivered the money actually leaves the hold is released and the charge is made in the name of the customer will that inspire trust will that get that next level of customers to start using digital money maybe what is the other source of where currently it's a little bit of a black box right again another merchant partner told us that 30% of their post purchase call are when a return or a refund has happened people call up to ask where is my money where is my money so now is there a way to solve for that can we give transparency or visibility into the post purchase life cycle of the transaction because the payment is attached to the transaction always right what if you could allow if there is a refund or a return similar to the you know similar to this one where you see the life cycle of a delivery right the status different stages of delivery you could see the different stages of a return right ok sugi has initiated the return the gateway is processing it today the bank now has it it should have shown up in your account right it would give us so much more comfort what if another source of I guess concern or concern for most people is what if and again this is particular to India right this is where I would like to just remind us of that graph that we saw earlier where the difference between United States and India in America commerce evolved over a period of 60 years what that meant was like in 1950s and 60s when Visa Mastercard actually started the form of commerce was just moving from mom and pop shop to big format retail and from big format retail it moved to television catalog buying from catalog buying it moved to internet buying and today it's moving to mobile commerce so in that process what happened was over a period of 60 years customer laws facing customers and reading customer like a king evolved gradually in the United States right therefore there is a lot of peace of mind that comes because there is trust in the institution whereas in India now you guys go to court like if you are unhappy with Flipkart you think the studio over try and go to court like that's never gonna do it right it's such a waste of time so the responsibility of innovating for trust falls on the shoulders of private company, entrepreneur, startup right so we need to when you think about innovating when you think about solving for social trust in the absence of systems that give your customer peace of mind I guess something that you can think of is how do I give my customer peace of mind when they are you know when there is a charge back scenario of course it happens very few times but when it does happen kind of messes with your mind and maybe is there a way to redesign or go back to first principle ignore conventional wisdom and rethink of what that experience could look like where you could convert an unhappy charge back type emotion in a customer's mind and convert that into a delightful moment because you actually problem solve for that customer right one simple thing as a payment company we do payment companies or people in the digital money space merchants who are trying to move from batch to digital could think of is you know giving more control sense of control to the user where they can initiate a charge back from their dashboard and transparency into its space right maybe instead of billing them put it on hold while the merchants are looking at it and why should we think like this right I mean think about it the I'll just tell you an interesting anecdote last year so I moved back to India from the U.S. a couple of years back I'm still paying my student loan so I had to figure out a way to transfer some funds from my Citibank account in the U.S. to my Bank of America account also in the U.S. and last year I was like getting on the I went online and I tried to do it and I realized there was just I spent 30 minutes because I was so sure that there has to be a way to transfer that money right I'm so accustomed to doing Interbank transfers here in India like there must be a way maybe I'm not able to figure out the interface finally gave up called up Citibank customer care and they told me sorry ma'am you cannot do it there is no physical way for you to transfer money online from your Citibank account to your Bank of America account in the U.S. I was flabbergasted like I was impressed with what's happening in India so we in India are in the last few years if you look at what is happening in financial technology banking innovation even the RBI right there is everything that we talk about today whether it's Wallace, UPI technologies like simple everything has happened only in the last few years so we have an incredible opportunity in front of us to think first principle to reimagine what a payments tax could look like reimagine how to solve for trust ignore completely set aside conventional wisdom and rethink how we can create the future of payments and basically it's money flow right at the end of the day transactions are the most granular entity are the atoms of the economy and if you are able to figure out a way to ensure that commerce is all about value creation as opposed to money transfer alone right if that becomes our goal there is so much for us to do in India and we have the opportunity to leapfrog the rest of the world right we can take this innovation and take it to the rest of the world where there are which is still dealing with a lot of inefficiencies thanks to the broken ancient rigid banking infrastructure that currently exists in the rest of the world and in India today the payment companies that's both our opportunity as well as our responsibility and by applying some of these basic design thinking principles I guess we can create a new future and set an example and create billion dollar companies for the rest of the world thank you so we also have a bar at about 4.15pm and I guess we'll spend some time there are a couple of our merchant partners also coming there we'll have a freewheeling discussion around specifics of you know some solutions that we've come up with and at simple what are the frameworks that we've used if anybody's interested please do come and I believe you have office hours as well from noon to two you're on the schedule I have office hours that would be in room one if you want to bag your office hours just scratch yourself off with does anybody have any questions ah one in the middle there hi there's a great talk thank you sorry so in this talk we've got great insights on the design for B2C applications for products that are there how about B2B I work in a B2B environment and it has been very very difficult environment for us to think about how the designs can be better for our merchants we didn't really work in the business because a lot of it is driven by how the other business wants to be right so there is not much opportunity I would say to see how it can be better right at the front but of course there will be opportunities and I'm sure you can guide us through that how B2B space can be can actually consume that kind of things you know which company I would imagine you would have many more experts at your disposal than me so I think whether it is B2B or whether it is B2C my thinking or the best that I can offer is it again goes back to being able to look beyond what the customer wants to what is the underlying problem that is making them say that they want it I mean maybe we can discuss specifics of what you are talking about later offline but just to give you a different example you know when Henry Ford was asked how did you come up with you know how did you figure out that you needed to create a car and you asked your customers his answer was if I had asked my customers they would have said that they want faster horses the customers will never know what they really want it's the role of the entrepreneur or the business owner or you in this case to really understand what are the underlying needs if it is if speed the underlying need if speed is the underlying need giving them what they want may not really solve for that problem and then it's about going back and educating them about this so I think it's about really looking beyond I think we tend to get tunnel visioned around what customers ask us for I think it's very important as innovators to be able to look beyond what they want and understand the underlying needs that's probably the only source of insight for us to figure out for this presentation my question is primarily around low amount credit my question is related to that so how has the response been and how has been the conversion percentage I'm sure you guys do some logic on the previous orders and all that but how has the general market adapted both like you said people perceive that there would be a lot of prevalent people who would not want to pay and what learning really came into that because that is a perception if you see Uber or any other company their programs have been heavily abused so how has it been into the credit specifications Ola and everyone has entered into the space your name Saurabh Saurabh that's a great question it again I think goes back to the incentive structure and ensuring that you don't design for adverse selection I think one thing that simple as we've done from the beginning is figure out how do we ensure adverse selection does not happen there will always be some amount of adverse selection that happens but you want to make sure it's minimal but you need to design, we've tried to design the system to ensure that it stays at that minimal so to give you an example I guess for us the inspiration our design inspiration has come from the urban merchant all of us are familiar with the local neighborhood store who gives us a kata or a tab where you just buy, buy, buy and settle once in two weeks or once in a month now there it's about it's less about the credit it's about the relationship and the value that you get on top of that relationship so at simple any of our customers one thing they start realizing as they start using simple is it's not just about that one click it's not about the credit alone you get the credit but you also let's say there is an issue and you reach out to us we are able to work very closely with merchants to ensure that you get treated fairly and you know you get your money back if there is a start back type scenario so that's why we talk about end to end peace of mind and it's not just about the credit and when you're offering that end to end peace of mind then and the customer realizes it the value of that end to end peace of mind compared to being able to run away with a 750 rupees or 1500 rupees you're incentivizing them to choose this as opposed to this of course there is a possibility in the beginning that there will be some people who may choose to still not pay simple because simple is still small we are not yet present on as many merchants like you know the big four etc it's only a matter of time as we scale and as we get there we get to the point as we develop the size of our network grows the utility that simple adds the value that simple adds to the life of the customer is going to start outweighing the benefits that a customer might get by running away with that 1500 or 2000 rupees and that's how we are thinking you know solve for long term value creation as opposed to being afraid of people actually behaving opportunistically in the early days to give you a very simple like you know like this is not something we had even thought of right there was a customer who once wrote to us and how I guess this talks a little bit about how are you treating the customer when you ask the customer now imagine the neighborhood store scenario if that guy had told you that sir you live nearby why don't you give me 10,000 rupees at the beginning of the month whatever you buy I will start knocking it off of your 10,000 rupees and you know we will settle accounts in that manner like a prepaid scenario versus a postpaid which one obvious that the postpaid one is where the merchant is trusting you right so you get a sense of obligation towards that merchant there is a psychology there is a human behavioural psychology involved here and that was something that we had thought about in the beginning and it turns out to be true like we got innumerable emails from people telling us and one I will share one of them with you was from a student from Andhra Pradesh he had written to us saying that all my friends are asking me not to pay your bill but you have trusted me and you have given me money you haven't even asked me for KYC if I screw with you guys I will have bad karma for the rest of my life right so I guess I mean obviously we simple does not want to rely on the goodness of people's hearts or bad karma coming back and biting them we rely on technology and finger printing to make sure the system is more robust but that is I guess you know when you think about adding value to the customer's life I think our entire focus is on making sure over the journey of simple we continue to add more and more and more value to the customer where it goes beyond one click goes beyond credit it goes beyond just this piece of mind we are thinking of various other things which I cannot talk about today but the whole objective is to add more value to the customer's life which will ensure that the incentives get aligned so the incentive for fraud is low and the incentive of following the rule is high. Thank you so much that was a fantastic talk very interesting to see hand raises of who trusts and who doesn't trust the bof this afternoon is in the other auditorium so don't come back here if you want to be part of the birds of feather discussion on trust it is time for tea break or if you're me it's time for coffee break we will be back here at 1145 with a talk on web payments so we'll see you then enjoy your tea welcome back to Audi 2 we're going to start our second session of the day with a talk on web payments Hemantz is going to take us on a deep dive into the WC3 web payments browser API including use cases, advantages and a very interesting demo please welcome Hemantz okay hello PPP again let's buy something online we have done this many times so we have done this many times we probably have done it on mobile web too you go to a site you add something to your you know checkout card then go in add your card details then proceed then buy you probably get an OTP and do some two factor authentication and finally you have your products there which is ready to ship probably you just wanted to buy some fruits online and you had to build some shipping address and the payment options what is your shipping address what your payment address should be what's your payment type and things like this so here's a study done the second most reason where people were abandoning their checkout card was because of the complicated checkout process the first one of course was like creating an account which kind of solved now with many ways to authenticate and log in the user can you make a guess on how long the average checkout time is measured in terms of checkout steps 5 to 7 steps I was seeing someone flashing a 5 there that's almost close 5.42 I think those guys who have done a lot of checkout on different websites that was a very good guess it's around 5.42 steps and the checkout length measured in terms of form fields the number of form fields you have to fill before your checkout is unformed it's around 8, 10, 20 15 shall we average it out 14.88 what if we had this suppose our site makes a call to some API and then that API orchestrates all our pain points of filling a checkout form which already has your shipment address it has shipment mode like can it ship path can it do a normal shipping or can it ship on a drone or something or make it faster than you or it also has your account information the user information mobile number and the card the user already has and there is no form to fill just go and click on the checkout button and there is an API which takes care of all this headache and the user just clicks pay and you get the card information and then you pass the same data to your payment gateway and you are good to go wouldn't it be good if we have such kind of one button checkout experience welcome to web payment we are talking about what web payment is in general what payment request is there chapter one the structure of the payment message I will probably try to dive a bit on what the API looks like what are the structures like and then we will probably look into a demo to get more so I think most of them are aware of this beautiful JSON structure which we use in our day to day for data exchange right so I am just giving a quick overview for people who aren't really at their life it's just a key value pair you have a type and you have properties and you have something like required which is on a rate of basically suggestion of that so before we see what the API looks like we need to get few key terminologies or key jargons right nothing very complex there this is the term called pay pay is the entity that receives the funds right and then we have pair the guy who is paying to the pay and there is the payment service provider that can be your card institutions but that is very key so these are the key terminologies that we need to keep in our mind so how does the payment request look like so payment request basically will have a type a description, payment terms payment details and payment options this is how it would look again it's an object so we have a type we are saying it's a payment request and the description like payment to ppp.in and payment terms we have a payment method that's just like legacy card payment on my site it's an endpoint and then the payment amount 4.35 dollars it can be INR or it can be any currency value you want to set and then you would get a response from the API what would the response look like the response would have a type description payment terms and payment options so something like this where we have the type description payment and the payment methods response details will be plugged in there and we have the payment options chapter 1 the payment roles what are the payment roles so assume that this API is like a mediator so you see sitting between your browser and your payment gateway and he is taking care of all the hard work that you would have normally done probably saving the card on your site securely or having a less form field or trying to use autofill form field to make things easier and faster so assume that this API is like a mediator who is sitting there between the payer and the payee and helping things get smoother so what basically happens is the payer comes in and adds something to his card and then goes to checkout so then we mediate the checkout process to this mediator API which kicks in and helps to identify the card and gets the card details and passes it on back to the site because he is a mediator he doesn't really work as a payment gateway he gives the details back to your site you just validate to whatever you want on that and then pass that information on the back end to the gateway get it authenticated and get the payment here so on the front end for the user these things are very opaque he doesn't really see all the complex of that going behind it just clicks for him and the mediator takes care so if you see here we have your payment app sorry to the problem we have a payment app and we have the mediator we have the payee and the payment network so the payment network can be any of it can be either those cards before cards what we have or it can be the external API like probably like Google Pay, Alipay or like even Apple Pay these are kind of fundamental payment networks supported on the request API there are proposals to integrate other services probably even I saw a few thoughts here on Razer Pay or PU guys even they could probably integrate only thing is it's a bit of a complex process everything to all this payment the app should be PCA compliant there is something called PCA compliance where if you are trying to make an online transaction using a credit or a debit card you should have some compliance rules you should adhere to some rules so that you are assuring that the card is secure and you are not doing something fraudy on that card so there is also a proposal which says we could also get in cryptocurrencies as one of the payment methods so as of now we have credit cards as basic card and the Alipay whatever so here is a flow of the pair registration of a new app which I was talking about so there is the mediator operated by the pair so that makes a request to the payment app the payment app gives a registered true or false like what's the registration of the full and then the payment app says the payment app registered I was registered with this mediator the end rolled payment instrumentation that goes in and the payment instrumentation end rolled gives a handshake this is the handshake that happens when you are registering a new payment app this is the flow where the pair buys from the merchant website or maybe a web app or a normal app the whole idea is to have the you know the checkout process on a browser where mobile browser smooth and effective here is the example where the mediator the pair clicks on the buy button on the website and then the payment request is sent to the mediator where the mediator makes a check on select payment app for transaction details and the payment request is sent to the payment app and there is again the payment response the dance that happens and the payment response goes to the website and then the payment instructions goes to the payment network that's like your visa or credit card and it goes validate and say hey it was successful I was able to do the request what you sent to me and then finally the purchase is successful this is the whole dance that happens but for the user as I have been mentioned it would just be I want to pay this amount and then you would probably hit his CVV or CVC number and that's it so at any point of time if you have some clarification here you can just stop right away I wanted to be more of a conversation just one way and then the Q&A I will have a Google Pay or Alipay I will probably show it when I talk about the API in the test so the question was is Alipay or Google Pay already integrated with the spec just the WP spec is on payment request API is a WP spec it's a standard it's not like a Google API or anything it's open and it's integrated I will be talking about what process supports it because they are CTI compliant and then there is a process for getting the Google Pay you can have it I'm sorry if you are going to ask a question you need to have a microphone otherwise our live stream viewers cannot hear you so raise your hand if you want to ask a question I'll be happy to bring you a mic that's why I repeated the question chapter 2 is the payment request so here summarizing everything in one picture this is from the edge document where we have our web server web page in the browser and the wallet so we have this method called show on the API which we will dive in right after this and that will show a dialogue box which is within the browser you need not worry about making your own dialogue box for getting all the user input so it's basically about form less check out sounds a bit cranky but that's how it is there is no form that the user will right and the user chooses a shipping address he can choose where it should be shipped and if it's saved in his browser's autofill the same list will be shown here in the dialogue as well there is a shipping address he can modify add things like that and then the payment request API goes in he makes a purchase there is a successor failure so you have a control whether there was a successor failure say what would be the different cases where the successor failure happens say the user selects an address so you have total control when the user selects or changes an address so you will get a callback which has the address in it and then you can decide whether you have the ability to ship to that address or not and right away show there in the dialogue box itself that you can't really ship to this address rather than the user fails everything and then goes to check out and say sorry we can't ship to this address it is pretty instantaneous there because you get callbacks on each and every change there is an address change and there is a shipment type where he wants to check and if it's a some kind of a prime kind of service so it clicks on that and you get a callback again and you can check whether for this address for this item I am trying to ship or not and decide on the fly and show him that sorry we can't really provide you this and the payment button itself wouldn't be active. So APIs and demos these are the ingredients that goes into the API first of all you need a modern browser then you need the method data details and options or what do you mean by modern browser to answering to the question that the gentleman asked here these are the browsers that are supported now like Firefox has a plan to ship it and Chrome and Safari is there online so these are the the red ones are not there but there are they have they haven't given approval to implement this API so it's on its way. So can I have it how do I check whether I have the payment request API support in the browser or not it's pretty simple you can just do a window.payment request check for that if that exists well and good you have the payment request API with you or else you should fall back to your legacy payment process so we're talking about the method data right so the method data would have supported methods then it would have data data would have supported networks and supported sites. So on the supported methods we say basic cards so basic cards include visa and master card there is also mx or there is also a proposal for how do I handle gift card suppose I have a basic card and doing the payment with visa but I have a gift card I need to apply a gift card on it how do I do it so there is a proposal on that there is some discussion going on with that as well and supported again on the method data you can have multiple supported methods and the supported networks for it the second one here is example.com.bop.pay so this is where Alipay or Google Pay URL endpoint would come in and then the data would be very specific to the merchant so if you have your Google Pay setup then you would have your own merchant ID or specific that's what you will pass it here in the data that API needs some options you could pass it in the data in the method data so details, details is where we say what are all the items that we are, is there in the checkout so you can say like the subtotal is this, the total is this I am giving a discount of this and these are the summaries like hey I am shipping you some noodles from my restaurant or you want to say some message or you want to say we have a discount for you because you have been buying with us for consecutive 3 weeks or something like that all these descriptive messages that you want to show in your show in your checkout process goes to the details object so in this example there is an ID for the store and the display items what are all the items that needs to be shown in the invoice so you have the subtotal, the sales tax and the total due so here in this example it's like 55 dollars for the subtotal but then at the total amount you see that it's 65 that's because we need to add the shipping so select the shipping cost so if you want to add some cost whatever you want to display what's your for us it's like a legacy or something you can mention that there and it will show up in the invoice and we can add some shipping options too like I have been mentioning you can have shipping options to be like standard or draw on or whatever different type of shipping options you have and once the user clicks on the shipping option you will get a call back again to get the index of which shipping option that was selected so you need to say the user suppose the user selected drone and that locality doesn't have drone support then you can go through the index quickly see what that gets selected and check the location which you already have in your request call back and say hey I am not shipping I can't ship to you because my bot is dead or something like that so you can give that customized message also update your shipping options to the details of it and finally you have the options argument where you can decide what to ask during the checkout process whether you want to ask the payer email ID, name, phone and shipping details all these are options you can skip all of them then just the card will be there and you can decide based on what to do say for example on the card you know where to ship already because the user's address is there with you and you don't want to ask him on the checkout process so lot of edge cases have been thought through this API and it's pretty flexible and you have total control on what you want to show on, what happens when the user clicks on so you need not have to write any extra logic to handle the different selection so all of them are very neat promise based API talk is cheap show me the scroll so I want to do a demo on my mobile we try connecting it my pixel 2 is a bit spanky why it is not able to detect so I got an idea of showing on my web cam and pointing my phone to the web cam so that you guys can see it on the screen I haven't tried this before let me see how it goes here is a simple demo which I have posted on my site so you guys can see it at least you are able to see the red checkout button very bright, better now I think this is fine if you have a checkout button you could do a thing as well if you have a mobile device or probably on your desktop also you can just go to hcman.com demo-payment-request and this will load up you just use a second so when I click checkout you basically see this dialog which says payment API request demo that's the site like even and what is the card I already have view the card so it shows the card which is there and I can go and edit or add a new card so adding card is pretty neat and it says these are the cards I have to validate for you whether the card is valid or not so you need not worry about doing all those validations and after you add the card you just go ahead and hit the pay button and it says processing this I am just taking I don't have a server to process your card information but you could definitely give your card information that would be helpful so I would just here's a deal it's asking for the CVV I would show you my CVV 123 and I just go and confirm and here we would see the JSON cluster of what the response is so that was the demo experiment I will bring up the same here on the desktop it is not just the mobile web it has the same experience I just wanted to show how would the pop-up look within the mobile device on the desktop is the same experience you have your payment option you can select the card and here are the details order summary in your friends and family discount I was talking about CVT it's in INR and I have given a discount of 500 rupees then we just go and do a pay and it asks for CVV I hit the confirm this is what the response looks like so the method was a basic card the details had billing address address line 123 I was lazy to fill all the address so I just did that and city was bangled over you get all the information you get my phone number as well and the card I have just masked here so basically on the response you would get the entire card number I have just masked it here for the demo you could just go ahead and play it and let's see the code now should I just bump the font so the magic happens with init payment request so we are checking whether we have the payment request support in our browser or not if we have the support we will go and init the payment request in init payment request we have networks like amix, dinners, discover all this mark the card, visa and the types we have debit credit prepaid and the method data was taken array now it's like we have to just give a string which is like basic card that's what we are supporting in this use case and the data with supported networks with all the networks as mentioned above and supported types are the types like debit credit and prepaid and the details object looks like this this is where I said buy some food from manindal restaurant and the currency is INR the value is so and so and the display items, original amount you know a structure so suppose you would get all this response from your service so you are making a call your service gives you a json so you could just massage it and put it in your details object so it is very light on the print and then you have the payment request with method data and details I have not passed in the options here as the name says options is still options where in options as I mentioned you could ask for the email address or phone number and things like that so I have a button here so on clicking on clicking of that button we would pass in the request so we would get the request here and request.show would result in this dialog box so request.show would result in the dialog box and that is a promise with api so you would get the instrumented response that I was logging there you could pick up that instrumented response and pass your server that is what you have to do to know whether the transaction went through or not so I am just taking the response taking the server call here and then you get a complete success failure whether the transaction was successful or not on complete you will decide and pass a success on success I am just in this case I am just updating the DOM show the response so it is a pretty easy thing to do so to cancel the payment I am logging like a boarded request so you could also just hit an escape and that would result in a cancel as well so any queries on this part of the code so in this use case I have not used options so you could add options and see how it looks like definitely ask you to fiddle around with the code I just got a bell on the time box so I am not really clear on where the payment actually happened like you got the response from the payment api was the payment already done by then that is a good question it is not done so as I have been speaking this payment request api is just mediated does not do any payment for you so you are just selecting the card certain the UI yes it does not yeah you can assume that you had a big check out form basically where you would validate the card and everything all those clauses handled by this and you just filling your card and if it is already added you can just select the card and then in the response you will get all the information the card what was the amount and everything and you pick that and pass to your server and the payment gateway will send the response the payment was successful or did it fail so I have also created a fiddle so I mean when you mention that the payment service provider has to be easy ideas is compliant easy capturing the card details on the screen itself and then it is getting sent over the wire or how is it going to work there are two options here you enter the card details and it stays on your client it does not get stored anywhere it does not get stored in some server or something and it passes to the website so there is there is no man in the middle attack I can expect that what you are saying so if your site is already api site obviously the provider if your site is already you would not be doing that and if you see all this online site where you can purchase there will be a certificate saying these are the complaints we have so if that company is there they will make sure that it doesn't kind of leak over the abstraction or can get can happen a man in the middle attack and someone can see your details that won't really happen and the other thing is you can authenticate with your say google account and then you have saved your card details on your google personal that details you can fetch up and say hey this is the card I see it will just be the last four digits and it will last for you for the cvg and you can hit there and it is like the token waste application that happens so you have two different ways to do that but I have created one more fiddles where you can go and play around in this fiddles and try to add different options and see how it behaves in this case compared to the previous one it is bit more verbose where you can choose the shipping address these are all the shipping address that I showed in my google chrome browser so these are all the shipping address and I can also choose my payment mode I can add a card the same process and then I have my contact information here after I choose my shipping address this is the error scenario we can't shift to this address in this demo I wanted to show how you can show can you shift to this address or not so it is not like after paying to the payment process you say hey sorry it says they are instantaneously so you can add a different address or choose a different address and after choosing you would get a payment method the fiddles I will probably tweet or you can just go to the fiddles and you will find it there and probably you can take the conversation further offline I am definitely happy to help and if I can't get right answers I know folks who are part of the development I can get interested so if you like the payment frequency and the payments and hope you guys will use it on your mobile browsers and on your PWAs and make it even more sexy if I can call it thank you thank you very much as we get Chris set up for his talk I would like to remind you that your schedule is your feedback form and we would love to get your feedback and I think the next thing only has four binary questions was the content relevant was it at the appropriate level for you was the speaker prepared in your opinion and would you recommend this talk we put all of our talks up on YouTube and haspeak TV so you can review them if you didn't see them here for example if you wanted to see something in both auditoriums at once you can choose and then you can watch the other one on the video I would like to remind you that flash talks are today at 3.40 we have slots for four talks I have no sign ups yet but I sure would like to see some people yesterday I had to get up and give a flash talk because we had too few of them so please don't make me give another flash talk because today I will probably say this is your incentive to either not attend or to sign up and do something more interesting talks are five minutes long they can be pretty much anything payments related as long as it isn't a sales pitch or a hiring pitch you can come see me and I will write your name and your topic down and I think we are just about ready maybe not quite just about ready this afternoon after lunch at 2 o'clock is the UPI workshop if you have a workshop ticket your badge will be marked they're doing check ins starting at I think 145 the workshop begins at 2 and it's 2 hours long they're still testing the next talk is listed as one way on your schedule but actually it has been renamed turning morality into math AI ethics for India was just too straight too dull for the man who is about to give this talk so he's renamed it write this on your schedule the loans for ladies stags pay extra that's a little bit more conflicting and confronting than turning morality into math but the topic is still the same Chris is the head of data science it's simple and fairness in AI is the intersection of analytical philosophy and mathematics what happens when an AI begins behaving in an unethical manner good loans to us ladies it sounds good but it really isn't good what does morality in AI even mean can mathematics solve the problem but Chris is definitely going to open some eyes today I'm unmuted hi everyone so yeah I'm going to be talking about AI ethics and I'm going to focus on the lowest level of AI ethics so we're not going to talk about terminator situations here we're going to mainly talk about the one that is relevant to payment and whether whether our lending processes or our fraud detection processes are going to be unfair to some groups in society this is a pretty hot topic these days as people are starting to realize that a algorithms don't always do what you want them to do so we'll sort of just talk a little bit about how that happens so about a week before this talk I discovered the simplest algorithms that can do something bad so this is not actually in payment this algorithm is used to prevent shoplifting in a supermarket so what you do is you go to your point of sale system and what you do is you calculate the shrinkage rate so the shrinkage rate is how many items you purchased to have in the store minus you basically look at how many of these items you sold you count how many are left in the store and if they're the different that means someone stole some of them so you make a spreadsheet you put the skews number that represents a particular item you look at the shrinkage rate you look at the price of the items and then here's a very simple ai you multiply the shrinkage and the price is this not working very well then what you do is this third column you kind of see represents how much money you're losing to theft on that particular item so you sort the spreadsheet by by this amount you're losing and then what you do is you look at the top items so the ones I've marked in red have the highest rate of loss and what you do is you put anti theft devices so these are those little boxes you see in Indian supermarkets they're usually on chocolate and if you were to try to take it out of the store without taking it out of the box it will flag an alarm and you need the shopkeeper to take the box off so in most ai we can possibly understand and everyone here understands what it's doing can this ai behave in a racist or a sexist manner that will make people unhappy and the answer is yes so this is a real example that happened in the US the retailer Walmart is being sued for it if you are a white person there are no anti theft devices on your hair dye and if you're black it's in a an anti theft device a lot of people find this fairly offensive and Walmart certainly has egg on their face from this example and all this happened just from literally taking a spreadsheet and basically sorting by the highest rates of theft so there's a lot of reasons to think this is bad first of all it offends a lot of people most of your black customers have no plans to steal whatsoever they still have to deal with the hassle of going to the cashier getting them to take this anti theft device off it slows them down in the checkout and it also perpetuates racist stereotypes and in part it does so because they have an element of truth according to the point of sale system this was one of the most stolen items but on the flip side let's think about why we might actually want to do this anyway so stolen it costs the store money and they have to make up the money somehow they make it up by raising prices on either the item that's being stolen they can raise prices on all the items and the cost of theft has to be borne by customers somehow another thing a store might do is stop carrying items that are stolen a lot this can also be very bad so my ex-girlfriend she's born in Mozambique but she lives in Pune so every time I come from the US she asks me, Chris can you bring me some shampoo for black people just because in Pune she can't buy it it's very annoying to her so if the store stops carrying the products you want because they're stolen a lot that's also bad and similarly these anti theft devices are limited so another option is to put them on everything but now you're inconveniencing 100% of people instead of a much smaller fraction of people this is the fundamental this one example kind of illustrates the fundamental take away I want everyone to get out of this talk which is that there's a lot of relevant ethical principles here and you cannot actually satisfy all of them in most cases there's no way to simultaneously be utilitarian and also to avoid stereotypes and to treat every group fairly and also every individual fairly so to begin with this talk is going to be both math and computer science as well as a bit of philosophy so we're going to discuss the four major ethical theories that I see as playing a role here and one thing I want to emphasize is that most papers you read about AI ethics are written by someone in San Francisco and I interpret the San Francisco broadly it might mean Seattle it basically means tech companies on the American West Coast Microsoft, Google, Facebook and then a few universities mostly Stanford so the ethical theories they have are very much informed by that context and are quite likely not super relevant to India so what I really want to encourage everyone to do is both understand where they are coming from if you're interested in this topic and also to ask whether the algorithms and the processes they've come up with really apply to India maybe we need if India has a different ethical system than San Francisco does then we would need different algorithms as well so the first sort of ethical principle is individual fairness and what this means is that there are certain traits that we consider protected so gender is typically one in India caste would probably be one in the United States race would be one there's a variety of traits that you feel it's unfair to condition a decision on so basically here's what shouldn't happen we're sort of deciding let's say state of origin in India is one of these traits I should never say you're from UP I will not lend you but if you were from Maharashtra I would lend to you individual fairness says that should not happen and you have to pre-specify these traits but whatever they are it's a thing you need to consider now another more San Francisco idea is group fairness so remember in individual ethics we said I should not make a decision differently depending on let's say your caste whereas in San Francisco ethics you sort of say you look at each individual caste and you say some statistical property is the same across these groups perhaps my loan approval rate should be the same for upper caste and for lower caste or perhaps the false positive or the false negative rate should be the same so fundamentally when one of these statistical properties is not equal it's called an allocate of harm it might mean you're making loans predominantly to people from let's say a higher caste than to people from a lower caste so this thing that becomes really important if you are considering group fairness is what is the definition of a group so that's a question on the board what is a Marathi I've not seen a clear definition we all have a general idea but there's no clear definition and I've listed a bunch of edge cases of people who you could kind of consider one and might not be depending on how you choose the definition that would affect these statistical traits including some people from your class and that could then fundamentally change whether something is fair to a group or not San Francisco virtue is not noticing things that are I use the term problematic because it's popular in the US and again I'm really focusing on the US because that's where most of the work on this field is done so certain things if you're a good person you will just not notice certain facts so this is a screenshot of Google can you read this in the back okay so this is a screenshot of Google's auto-complete and I typed into Google why are camel so and it gave me quite a few things that people are frequently searching for I've been to Singapore that's a good question there are a lot and then you can there are many things that are true that are listed for Punjabis having spent a fair amount of time in Delhi I can they don't seem crazily wrong this is American Google if you type in why are black so why are Hispanic so why are white so there are no auto-complete suggestions there's not even there's a lot of search results you just won't get so in San Francisco ethics there are probably things you could observe you would observe and you might want to be searching for but Google is not going to help you search for those things you're just not supposed to notice this this is a quote from Urz Khosley he's a senior VP at Google he basically says as engineers we're trained to pay attention to details think logically on topics of fairness this is bad because questioning exact details might actually question the overall narrative he's basically saying there's a long quote but he's basically saying thinking logically and questioning fairness and justice is bad because it might lead you to think in a bad place like here's a really concrete example from the field there's a paper that studies a word embedding and what it does is it observes that certain words like computer programmer have gender associated with the word this is just in terms of vectors and a word embedding and what it does is it discovers there's a almost perfect correlation between the gender content of the word and the number of people of that gender who work in that profession so an AI trained simply on reading words can suddenly discover lots of computer programmers are male and lots of nurses are female this is considered a problem that needs to be solved the AI has noticed something it should not have noticed so the ethical principle is don't notice these things and the final ethical principle that I'll discuss in this talk is utilitarianism and what this is about is just your product is useful let's say you're lending which is mostly what I'm going to discuss if I lend money to someone who repays it I get the money back I lend it out again the person who repays it spent it on something useful so it was beneficial to him and this process is useful for society essentially we're allocating capital to productive uses and I give it to someone I've named Freddie the fraudster who just spends it all on ganja and then doesn't repay his loan that's not so good for society so the assumption here is that whatever we're doing stopping fraud lending money to people who will repay it this is productive the fundamental assumption here is that your product who you're choosing to either allow people to use or reject is a valuable your product is not valuable get a new job but if it is valuable then obviously it's good to allow people in and it's bad to reject them and then we're also sort of assuming that your product should be doing its thing and it's we're sort of assuming capitalism works in the sense that lending should be about who's going to repay and if you want to give money to the poor that should be done separately by the government or by an NGO and it shouldn't be secretly funneled through a lender let's say like it should be funneled to people who need it by the government as opposed to people who are good at fraud by a lender and if you believe that then utilitarianism makes sense key questions when you're considering ethical issues that have to be considered are how much utility are you going to sacrifice for one of these other virtues so how much utility will you give up for fairness how many extra defaults or extra fraud will you allow in order to avoid using a protected trade or how much individual fairness will you sacrifice in order to get more group fairness these ethical principles will come into conflict and I'll sort of illustrate how shortly the key point is you have to answer these tough philosophical questions before you can even start building an algorithm that's fair you have to define what fair is how much of one thing you'll give up for the other thing let's talk about what AI and machine learning systems actually do there's no strict AI and neural networks in this talk I'm sticking to the simplest possible algorithms so that we can all understand them the one algorithm was sorting a spreadsheet the next one I'm going to discuss is linear regression I'll get to that in a second so the key point here is to build simulated worlds so I know what the world looks like because I built it in some Python code and then to see I'll take my algorithm I'll run that algorithm on the world on the fake world and I'll see what the algorithm outputs so that helps us understand if the world looks this way will the algorithm behave in a manner we find acceptable or unacceptable so here's our simplest model we want to predict something we have an input which is a set of things we know before we issue a loan before we do a fraud check and so on so in this example it might be income in North India which would be one if a person is in North India and zero if they're not mobile or desktop which would be again one if they're on mobile, zero if they're on desktop how much money they spent in the previous month and the thing I might want to predict would be how much they're going to spend in the current month so given this information I want to predict it so there's an algorithm called linear regression which basically says I know that y is going to be the dot product of some vector alpha which I don't know and x plus a constant term plus error which I'm going to assume doesn't matter for my purposes so concretely what this means is in case for those of you who are unfamiliar with the dot product alpha is a vector of numbers there's alpha one alpha zero alpha one alpha two it's the first alpha times income plus the second alpha times whether they're in North India plus the third alpha times mobile or desktop and so on you just do that multiplication add the results together and that's your prediction of y it's the simplest predictor but it's really understandable which is why I'm going with it in this talk and actually in production you should always start with this because it works a lot better than you expected to so let's look at how this works I've got a simple model where I'm assuming the true alpha is one two and three I'm generating my data by taking random input and I'm setting the output equal to one times the first plus two times the second plus three times the third plus other errors so it's not the data doesn't fit this perfectly but it comes close to a Python function called the center least square and it basically says given the data it doesn't know alpha anymore it only knows the data and the output estimate me an alpha and when you run this it fits out something that is pretty close I mean 0.98 instead of 1, 2.03 instead of 2 it's not perfect but it's pretty good and the reason it's working so well is of course every example in this talk is linear regression because that's easy to explain so now the first question to ask ourselves is linear regression is going to become biased or unfair in the sense that it's going to systematically make wrong predictions based on information it should not be so concretely we sort of have a mental model of a racist human this guy just doesn't like for whatever reason so this human is sort of evaluating a loan application and if someone from Karnataka comes along he's like okay I'll look at your income I'll look at your financials I'll look at your debt to income ratio and I'll make a lending decision and then if a Bihari walks in he's like go away I don't like you this is really not a nice person but this is sort of our mental model that's going to behave so the question is what will an algorithm do so what I'm going to do here is I'm going to make the third feature whether a person is Bihari or choose your favorite protected class something we're not supposed to look at and what I'll do is I'll just make 25% of the people be let's say Bihari and what I'm going to do is I'm going to make the true model be not dependent on so I'm going to assume that Biharis pay their loans back the same as anyone else just dependent on the other two features which are their financials so you can see that when I generate the output like in the simulation I'm ignoring whether a person is Bihari then when I run the model the model rediscovers exactly what we put in that it doesn't matter if you're from Bihar your income and your how much your house is worth so what we've done in this case is we've discovered that simple linear regression will not behave like this racist bank manager we imagine who is going to behave unfairly and then essentially what it's discovering is that everybody lives along this line we've got blue dots I guess you can't really see it too well we've got blue dots which represent the minority group and they're all clustered along this same line so this line is our predictor saying the higher the input is the higher the output is according to our ethical principle this algorithm is completely ethical reds and blues are going to be equally represented in the positive set being issued alone any individual red or blue person is going to be treated the same because if we go back a couple of slides and that number is so close to zero it won't really change your decision the utilitarian because we're accurately predicting reality if not noticing anything we shouldn't notice because in this case there is nothing to notice there is nothing Bihari is just an arbitrary label it has no impact on the data now a lot of people say things that are kind of anthropomorphic about what AI will do like here's one that was in the New York Times a long time ago this was discussing using AI to predict crime the police have discriminated in the past predictive technology just reinforces and perpetuates this problem and it's basically what they're saying is if racism happened in the past the AI is just going to keep doing what happened in the past so let's see if that's true so what I'm going to do is I'm going to simulate a world in which past data looks bad and then I'm going to see what the predictor does when it comes out so what I'm doing here is again I'm going to say 25% of people are in the protected class let's say I don't know choose a different group, gujarati what I'm going to do is for people who are gujarati I'm going to say their income is lower their house is worth less money so minus two is a lower number than zero which is what everybody else gets and then the output is predicted as before so if you do some descriptive statistics you discover that almost every gujarati has lower income his house is worth less than almost every non-gujarati so this is far more stark a difference than what you see in the real world and this is what your data set looks like the non-gujaratis are up here they perform well they have good input and they have good output and the gujaratis are down here they're performing badly so as a human heuristic you could easily just say you know what I'm not going to lend to any gujaratis because they're all down here but linear regression doesn't do that linear regression observes that actually the protected class still doesn't matter it discovers the underlying reason why the gujaratis were performing worse here is just because their income was lower and it predicts that if a gujarati had high income he would also repay his loans so it actually discovered that these predictive factors matter and this other information does not this is still allocatively unfair because the algorithm is going to correctly predict gujaratis are not going to repay their loans just given that they all have low income and it won't lend much money to them so from the perspective of group fairness this is not good but it's individually fair it's utilitarian and it's also noticing something that is a bit problematic another thing that's often said is so ultimately what other things that are often said about AI is that it's going to learn human biases and one thing it might learn is that let's say the input data is actually biased so imagine again the situation where people come into the bank they give you income they give you other financial data and imagine now that the bank manager rather than just being like yeah get out of here he puts it all on a form and he's like if you're Bihari I think you're lying about your income and he's like okay I'm going to essentially what he does is he biases the input he subtracts I don't know 30k a month from your salary only if you're Bihari now the input data is fundamentally biased and it looks like this so it's sort of a shift so everyone follows the line Bihari follow a different line but other than that the same pattern exists there and if we run linear regression what we discover is actually the algorithm rather than perpetuating this bias it corrects it so it discovers that if the input data is biased in this way it subtracts errors what the algorithm is going to do is put them back it's only desire is to predict whether a person repays a loan it doesn't care how it gets there and if the most efficient way to do that is to correct the bias in the input it's going to do that because it's not like a human it's very different from a human it only cares about accuracy and we can observe that so I checked the residual which is a measurement of the error and the algorithm which adds the bias back performs a lot better on the other hand it's a bit unfair because what the algorithm is actually doing is it's saying if you're Bihari I'm going to give you two extra points on this scoring system just because I've observed your ethnicity I'm going to give you these points that's not so fair on an individual level this gives us a recipe for checking whether an algorithm is kind of biased in some way what you can do is you can make a new data set which has the algorithm you want to test and the protected class you build a new algorithm by taking this as training data and if protected class changes the output that'll actually tell you the old algorithm was biased and if it doesn't actually change the result it means it was probably not so fundamentally things like bias in your inputs and whatever these are hidden features that predict your data and machine learning is about finding those kinds of patterns and this again is allocatively fair now because essentially Biharis and everybody else are going to be issued loans at the same rate but it's individually unfair and it's a big complex whether it's satisfying the virtue of not noticing so here's a real world example where this was done and this is where I've taken the title from so some people were studying microcredit in Bangladesh and they did exactly what I'm describing here they ran linear regression on lenders and looked at various characteristics of the lenders so they looked at whether they were Kasi or Patro which are the two major ethnicities in the area education, married, whether they're a farmer and one thing they discovered was highly predictive because if you're a female you're much more likely to repay a loan and this has actually been replicated quite a few times here's another study that looked at lenders instead of borrowers and it's covered that lender with more female clients is going to have a much better portfolio this has been done in the US as well in a couple of cases so this was a study that discovered that religious people are much less likely to repay a loan than non-religious people would submit a loan application and if there were religious words like by God I will repay you the person was actually very much unlikely to repay another thing they discovered is that medical words like angioplasty were also very much correlated with not repaying possibly because the person dies and then they don't get to repay and religion is also another thing you're generally not in the US it's considered a protected class here's another example where in terms of repaying a home loan in the US black Americans are discovered to be significantly less likely than Asian Americans to repay a loan and Asians is just a broad category that includes Indians, Chinese and Filipinos and everyone perhaps should be more granular but it's not it's a little more uncomfortable so if we think about this example a lot of us are going to our instinct is yeah we should maybe offer ladies lower rate loans because the algorithm said so and it kind of seems okay in the religious example we're a little more uncomfortable and in the racial example this means we should be offering black higher rate loans just again if we're following the data these all people tend to react very differently depending on which of these examples they're considering what the answer what one should do about this so the issue of noticing of you know the virtue of noticing is a bit complex in the following sense maybe there's bias in the input data so there's other predictors here like age and education maybe we're mismeasuring age and education for women like maybe women just don't report that they went to school and dropped out of grade so maybe we're correcting a bias like that but also maybe we are observing something intrinsic maybe women are just naturally more responsible than men are and they're just naturally going to payback loans at a higher rate than men so we might be observing one of these things that we're not supposed to observe according to this ethical principle and I don't know the answer to this it's hard to determine whether this is an intrinsic thing or a bias in the input data but nevertheless you've run this algorithm you have a prediction of whether someone's going to repay you've got to do something with this you have to make a decision and the question is what do you do one key point is that protected class is another feature so here's another quote about how AI is going to behave badly this is from Kathy O'Neill who's been a huge critic of using algorithms to do anything which is that we allowed a statistical model to use for college admissions in 1870 we still have 0.7% of women going to college so her intuitive idea is that the algorithm is going to sort of observe that everyone going to college is male so male is an important trait in college now let's imagine so our AI just treats these as columns it's a boolean true or false so let's swap out the meaning of the column in the same state but simple we have for a while the tomato and book my show were a couple of our customers our merchants so you can make payments there we had no training data whatsoever on grophers who's still a very new merchant who uses us if we allowed a model to be used for credit approval on tomato and book my show we would still today have 0% of grophers that's kind of a silly statement to make right it essentially says you can never if you're using a statistical model you can never onboard a new merchant because I'm not having too much time I'm going to gloss over the math that kind of illustrates why this just doesn't happen what I'll do instead is I'll just illustrate a couple of examples where the exact opposite happens so historically in the Maharashtra area most auto wallahs were Marat it's just at the time almost everybody there was now relatively recently Uber and Ola started to exist and they used an algorithm to predict who should be an auto wallah who should drive an Uber, who should drive an Ola it was basically like look at your predicted star rating if it drops below 4.3 you get kicked off the network the net result of this is that suddenly there were a lot of Bihari's driving autos in Maharashtra the exact opposite of what Caffeoneel predicts that it should reproduce what happened in the past instead it discovers it has discovered that anyone can drive an auto all that matters is how good a job they do whether they get where they're going and the net result is that the people who dislike algorithms want to both stop Uber and actually pass laws saying only Maratis can drive an auto and then a similar thing happened in the U.S. in college actually around the time she was talking about it I guess she was just not aware of this example coll