Amazon I used to be a fan of Whole Foods then I realized they really do overcharge you for everything Except for the except for the stuff they make in house. Yeah, the in-house stuff is pretty good There's a few other things here and there that they their butcher their their butcher department's pretty good, too Yeah, but like a lot of them a lot of the dry package stuff and it's overpriced a Lot of the a lot of the brands like the organic brands healthy brands They they they jack up the price because they know people like just want that brand Know the convenience of not having to shop around for it So well like I get I eat these cherry tablets for my gout and they want like 35 bucks So are they tablets of cherry or they cherry flavored tablets?  It's like wait a minute. I can get everything I used to get for like 50 bucks a month Instead of what I was what she is paying which is over a hundred What kind of dog food do you feed your dogs Tom? We feed them Zignature brand signature Yeah blend Everything is Django related It's the only food that Django could stomach at the end of her life So here first I kept feeding it because we had it and it's like okay. Well, so you're can eat it So I can eat anything and then when we got Ray I was like well I should probably shift to something more, you know suited to a young shepherd and I started looking around and then I Realized wait. I'm three bags away from getting a free bag of the signature Loyalty card, so I guess what Ray? signature for another three bags lady So you ordered that through Whole Foods had it delivered Now I get it at the the dog bakery dog what they bake dogs Or I get a free bag The dog food that we guys was taste of the wild which was like some kind of fancy Yeah, we used to use that actually that is the Kirkland brand of dog food is the same thing Yeah A lot of house brands that you find at supermarkets that were made by the same companies to make the branded stuff But because of whatever deal, you know, it's interesting because Shane says Ray has no idea the complex politics that determined her meal Every time I see dog food, I think of one of two things I'm hungry road warrior because it's a can of alpoh and No, mad at Rover warrior because it's a can of alpoh, but also a cookie Chris Because cookie Chris parent company was like Purina or Ralston. That was Ralston Virida. That's like, oh wait Don't they make dog food? Yeah, it's not good. All right ladies and gentlemen Shall we have control? You do have control? All right, gonna hide here We Yeah The Daily Tech news show is brought to you by its global listener base not outside organizations to find out how you can contribute Go to Daily Tech news show comm slash support This is the Daily Tech news for Friday, June 16th 2017 I'm Tom Merritt joining me today. Ms. Megan Maroney host of tech news today and iOS today and Producer at twit.tv. How's it going Megan? It is going well. I always love to join you on the Daily Tech news show It's nice to do that this and then do it again I was gonna say I always feel bad having other show because then you have to go do it all over again later in the day Well, I get I get you know, this is just a trial run, but I'm gonna do my best I mean I saw Sawyer you posted a video of Sawyer You were asking him some questions about Amazon and he had I got I mean I like your dogs But I gotta say his answers were a little dull. So I'm gonna step it up a little bit. All right Yeah, if you can outdo my dogs vocalist answers. I think we'll all be doing well Yeah, we are gonna talk about Amazon again. I apologize We talked about Amazon possibly buying slack yesterday and then they went and bought Whole Foods Well, they bought it but they're in the process of actually buying Whole Foods not a rumor so and and I have Shopped at the original Whole Foods in Austin back in the 90s Megan. You worked at a Whole Foods. Was that your first job? That was my first job in high school. I was a junior. I think in high school. I worked at the meat department At Whole Foods. I'm now a pescetarian mostly vegetarian I wouldn't say the two are They're totally related Yeah, I was it was just it was a good job also because it got me ready for work It was just three guys and me so it got me ready for my future jobs Which is usually three guys three guys in here. Yeah, wherever I am working We both have shopped on Amazon. So we're uniquely qualified to discuss the story today Let's start off with a few tech things you should know about them Chinese scientists have successfully tested quantum entanglement with two photons 1200 kilometers apart It's a new record They have a special satellite to do this so that they can use the vacuum of space for part of it And then split a beam and send it to two locations in Tibet findings were published Thursday in the journal Science now, I know this is the quick hits part of the show Megan, but any questions you have on quantum science Quantum entanglement is that kind of how like we worked together in 2000 and now we're still doing shows together Is that the same sort of thing? Yes? Okay, so you have master in quantum mechanics. I someone's under an honorary physics degree. Thank you I'm pretty sure that's it Microsoft general manager for surface Ryan Gavin told business insider that Apple is imitating Microsoft with the iPad He said when surface initially launched that he didn't say like that He said when surface initially launched everyone was skeptical including them and then they followed in the iPad Pro as a clear example of that Megan is there any substance to this quote I don't think so. I have been using Surface and the and the iPad Pro and I got to say I I've gotten a chance I stole Leo's 10.5 iPad Pro that he Ordered for himself, but he's on vacation. So I took it and it's still a lot easier to use Then then the surface book is but yeah, I don't I don't I don't know what they're talking about They everybody copies everyone, right? Yeah, and Samsung's frame TV meant to look like a 55 or 65 inch frame picture on your wall goes on sale June 18th for a thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars or two thousand seven hundred ninety nine dollars respectively. I Want it Put it on your wall. It's a lot of money for just looking like a frame Yeah, you could take an LG and put it in a frame It would still be more expensive than that actually say I guess that's not that bad All right before we get to the top stories don't forget Len Peralta is here illustrating the episode For us welcome back Len.  Oh was excellent It was it was a lot of fun and I want to go back and but I'm really glad to be here on Hat Friday, of course Which is which we should mention is probably gonna be listeners are missing out We all have hats on yeah, and my hat we can't see it right now But my hat was it's pretty pretty dang cool. Yeah, it's it no if you haven't seen it yet It's worth going to the YouTube channel or get in the video podcast take a look I think I don't between Megan and Len for best hat today. I'll be honest. I Think I'm gonna give that to the two to make you're very gracious Well, I'm wearing the hat. I'm wearing mom. I'm also wearing in my Twitter Profile so if you have to listen and you can't watch You can just go to Twitter I'm wearing a Greenville Senators hat Which was a summer league baseball team for the high school level players in Greenville, Illinois that I picked up in the mid 2000s fact my friend marks are gonna even retweeted a picture of me from the official Comets account All right here are some top stories Apple has hired Sony TV joint presidents Jamie Ehrlich and Zach van Amberg the two men have helped bring about a few shows in Their time at Sony and breaking bad the shield justified shark tank the mentalist To name but if the crown which is you know a Netflix show So they'll report to eddy queue and hopefully shepherd some more hits for Apple, I guess More more hits does Apple have a hit with Planet of the apps. Yeah Hits just drop more out of that Yeah, more hits they have hits they bring their hits to Apple. Yeah bring some hits No, I mean, this is a this is bringing in big guns, right? This is Apple saying we are not kidding around Planet of the apps is just an experiment We intend to bring some high quality stuff and of course they've got the documentary coming from Dre and You know, they they've been doing a lot of good music stuff lately But this would imply they're gonna get into scripted television. It seems It's exciting.  Yeah, don't add satellite. Yeah, and and obviously that's because of the originals and the originals have been really successful I really enjoy them and it's just a whole new it's really disrupting the way media works really being able to say I don't you know, it doesn't matter how much You watch this show or that show it's really just as long as you subscribe then we get the money So it gives creators more freedom. So I would hope that there would be more creative content out there Yeah, in fact, I'm gonna move what was actually gonna be later down in the lineup up earlier the lip-syncing social video app Musical.ly Musical.ly released its first original content to run alongside user creative videos after signing deals with Viacom NBC Universal and Hearst the content is designed to be interactive encouraging viewers to send in their own Responsives two to four minute episodes air weekly from MTV E and 17. They're free without ads Not monetizing it in any way we can see at least yet shows will be featured in Musical.ly's trending section for 24 hours So I feel like this is beyond like can online companies replace cable This is video and original content have become an adjunct for your service Whether your Facebook or Snapchat or Musical.ly Yeah, I mean Musical.ly is this sort of secret thing that most adults don't really know about My my boys don't use it very much My daughter does a lot of like it's like the pre Instagram and Or pre-snapchat as well. And you know, that's what snapchat does too They have their own original content and I think that's sort of what they're following Musical.ly was one of the first apps that a lot of kids use that did Live-streaming automatically and now of course Instagram has live streaming too. I'm sure they saw how popular Musical.ly was doing that and it's it is a really weird way I'm glad they're going into original content because if you see kids growing up with this sort of One-sided communication. It's very weird because you have the kids just constantly performing for each other That's what Musical.ly is. It's not a conversation. It's like hey, I'm gonna lip-sync this song or hey I'm just gonna live stream myself talking and You know, you're gonna watch it's it's odd because we know when back in our day We had nothing like that. I mean we could like put on plays for each other occasionally But it's not the same as like live-streaming yourself or showing off all your, you know Musical talent and a nap constantly to your friends and I think the idea that these User-made services like snapchat and musically are also getting high quality brands to put Tailor-made content, you know two to four minutes in this case. They're not asking for 30-minute shows Possibly points to a future where we are not going to see the model of Networks provide us shows that we sit down on our couch and watch that'll be one way you sometimes watch certain things But I think the continuum is is going to become a little messier From from movies to television shows to snapchat to YouTube to twitch. I mean we I don't think Kids growing up now are going to think of television the way we do Mm-hmm, and that's what these places like snapchat musically. We really want they want lean back content, right? Instead of lean in like that because that means that is the moment you're leaning back You're gonna stick around watch more ads, you know, it's gonna be sticky So they they really want that they want they want rocking Content because they want you to lean back and watch the NBC stuff then lean in and send an interactive video in With your friends and see their stuff like they just want to keep it going back and forth, right? I want to keep it rocking as well. Yeah, essentially Let's that's a little too much for my old brain. So let's talk about keyboards Microsoft unveiled the modern keyboard That's what they call it the modern keyboard, which integrates a fingerprint reader on the right-hand Windows key Bluetooth 4.0 keyboard can operate wired or wireless features a chicklet style keys I don't like to check let's style keys, but that's all the rage these days Compatible with Mac OS iOS Android and of course Windows and one the nice thing is you plug it in When you first get it and it automatically pairs So it makes it really simple to pair up with your devices modern keyboard would be available this quarter for 130 bucks There's also a Bluetooth 4.0 modern mouse that runs off three triple-a batteries for $50 And I got to say between Logitech and Microsoft that has been my Input device go to I have a Logitech K 120 right here in front of me I love Logitech mice for wireless, but this Microsoft mouse is is it that I've got is Perfect, it just does everything I need to do. So I'm curious about these for $130 like that That seems like a lot for a keyboard. It's a wireless my wireless keyboard, right? And it's got chicklets, which everybody loves. Yeah Is it chicklet like the smart keyboard on that all the keyboards are now yeah Yeah on the MacBook Pro now as a chicklet style surface has a chicklet style. It's what's the non-chiclet style like that That's when you actually have the keys like next to me. I can't lift this one up Part of you have the keys next to each other rather than separated Uh, that's non-chiclet. That looks so old-fashioned. It's great I like it and my quill pen My buggy whips Uh, I have yeah, I don't know. I guess I just I've I just gotten used to the chicklet style and Not thought about it. Yeah, but these are nice. These are nice looking keyboard mice though.  Is that something that's not the new one? I haven't tried the new one yet. I do have a surface book or a surface pro myself But yeah, the I guess the Thinking about keyboards.  I mean it sounds 1970s to me, right? To put carpeting on everything. Yeah So this one doesn't have carpeting on it. Thank goodness as far as I can tell now Uh, Canada's radio television and telecommunications commission the crtc has issued an order requiring all carriers in the country to unlock phones for free And sell new phones unlocked Up until now canadians have been paying 50 bucks or more to unlock their devices Generating a total of 37.7 million dollars canadian in 2017 and that's a rise of 75 percent since 2014 So the prices have been shooting up change came after a call for comment during updates to the canadian wireless code of contact a set of consumer transparency principles, so uh Carriers are out some money But you can get your phone unlocked without having to pay for it That's great. I think um, I think this is great. I makes me want to move to canada That the just that just being able to unlock your phone for free because you can buy unlocked phones pretty regularly You don't need to move to canada just to buy unlocked. I know that's not the only reason I want to move to canada, but it's one of the many reasons nice up there And they are so nice and they have some hortons and I like hockey It yes, you can buy unlocked phones But I just think it shows an attitude towards like you said transparency and openness and the consumer It's a consumer attitude and I feel like here there's We're not seeing that as much Yeah well And one of the problems with canada is you you have some some market It's a mere monopoly market conditions when it comes to carriers. There's not a ton of competition Uh, especially regionally whereas in the us We have four national carriers who are duking it out since t-mobile was not allowed to be gobbled up And I don't think this would happen if at and t had been allowed to buy t-mobile And then you have these regional carriers like us cellular and you have all the mvno's So I think it's there's less pressure on us to go in and correct things because of that Yeah, I I also think that in in the us. There's like the average people probably think that they That you can't buy unlock phones or that you can't switch carriers so easily I think that the carriers in the us make it really they never share that fact with you like for example The library of congress has put rules in place about unlocking to to make it easy to get your phone unlocked to so Right exemptions to the dmca and such right, but I mean you just yeah This saw the headlines about uh, andry and and uh, andy rubin's essential phone You know, it's gonna only only be carried by sprint That was the headline you saw and a lot of people like well I'm not gonna get it because I'm not on sprint, you know, but you can get an unlocked version But it's just like there's that weird kind of notion that You know an exclusive like that Yeah, the habit has been to buy it from the carrier because in the past you couldn't get unlocked phones Right, and that's changed right. Well, when I uh January jason howell and I did a switch. He took the my iphone 7 and I took his pixel for a month And I am on sprint I admit someone emailed me recently and said you should stop saying that you're on sprint because it makes you look like You're technically illiterate That's harsh Perfectly legitimate carrier Right in fact, you should be on sprint so you can be one of the people giving the perspective of what it's like to actually be on sprint Instead of just shooting arrows at sprint without actually understanding what their service is like exactly It's fine for me. It's just fine And really I'm just like I don't have the time to sit down and switch the five people in my family over to different carrier, but I guess my my point was sprint was very it was like it was super easy for jason to just switch on t mobile Into the iphone, but it was very it was not easy to to get over. Yeah my his pixel on sprint Well, atari is still a company and it has a ceo and that ceo's name is fred chenay Mr. Chenay if I'm pronouncing your name wrong. I apologize told games beat We're back in the hardware business confirming that atari is working on a new game console called The atari box the console will be based on pc technology But the design is still being worked on chenay bought atari in 2013 after it filed for bankruptcy And he's been busy turning it into a mobile Gaming enterprise and the atari box name may not be official But that's what a leaked video Referred to it as and he has confirmed that in fact. Yeah, we're working on hardware atari game console coming to you That's exciting. I had the 2600. So is it going to be a retro or do we think it's going to idea The design isn't finalized yet. So the the one the leaked video certainly looked retro with the wood paneling and all that But that may not be what it ends up looking like I'm excited to play a little pitfall again Yeah, well, I wonder what it will be will it be a retro thing like through and through where you play pitfall like you say Or will it be retro looking? But play windows games because they say it's going to be based on pc technology So you're not going to be playing monument valley 2 on it or anything Maybe not That's what that's really the only game I play. So I would just Hey, folks, if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes You can subscribe to daily tech headlines.com. It keeps you up to date fast and efficient You can get it as a podcast on the amazon echo as a flash briefing or in the anchor app at anchor.fm Great place to find all kinds of cool content And you can call into our station and do all kinds of fun things if you haven't tried it out Jeff canada's on there scott johnson's on there. Go try it out at anchor.fm And that's a look at our top stories. All right, let's get back into this amazon plan and to acquire whole foods 13.7 billion dollars is what their reporting is going to be paid if this all comes to be That would be amazon's largest acquisition ever. They only paid 970 million just under a billion for twitch So 13.7 times as much money being spent on whole foods Whole foods CEO john mackey said he will continue to run the company. They'll continue to use the whole foods brand They're not going to change the name of the stores. Uh, they will have a headquarters in austin Pretty much everything about whole foods will stay as it is They have around 430 stores and the deal is expected to close in the second half of 2017 Now at the same time People have surfaced a patent that was awarded to amazon on may 30th called physical store online shopping control Which when someone is on the wi-fi at a store I don't know say a whole foods that has wi-fi which they do The store could sense the customer accessing competing sites to do comparison shopping and either block access Block access to competing products redirect to stores own site So when you try to go to the pigley wiggly dot com you'd end up at whole foods dot com They could notify a salesperson to approach the person or even just send them a message Maybe a coupon or something like that now Before we get into the whole foods acquisition entire a lot of people are freaking out about this patent saying Oh, yeah, they're going to buy whole foods and then stop you from comparison shopping Well, first of all, don't use the wi-fi in the store and you can do whatever you want Second of all, don't forget a lot of times amazon will patent things to keep them out of the hands of others and amazon Absolutely wants you to comparison shop when you're in stores with amazon dot com So it would make sense for them to patent something like this to make sure that no other store actually does it to them Yeah, that that patent story seems to not I mean I agree with you. I think the patent story is Sort of a a non-story in terms of what we need to be worried about when we think about amazon buying whole foods I I feel like they're completely disrupting the grocery shopping Industry and I saw a story just about an hour ago about how they're not just buying the company They're buying all these locations and if you think about like the real estate like Whole foods is in upscale places where people are willing, you know to spend $7 for a dozen eggs And you know, it's it's crazy to think that amazon's now They're there whether they're gonna have physical grocery stores there or some other Thing in there that they're gonna sell it's that to me is is Sort of scary even though I'm a regular amazon shopper. Well, it's it's it's valuable real estate, right? It's a it's a good investment perhaps just on that although it's not a bargain at 13.7 billion dollars There's also warehouse space that is meant to deliver two local locations Which can definitely help amazon out logistically amazon is always looking for a logistical edge I don't think either of those are the reason they bought whole foods But they are definitely good side benefits for buying whole foods I don't think amazon is going to change the name of whole foods if you look at goodreads Comixology Yeah, all of those audible They they leave them running at worst on audible You'll see a powered by amazon logo But otherwise audible works like audible and it's been integrated into amazon.com So I would expect that to work that way you will find natural integrations like on goodreads If I'm reading on a kindle and I finish the book it'll ask me Hey, do you want to market complete on goodreads like nice easy integrations? What's the nice easy integration for amazon and whole foods grocery delivery? I would say this is the thing. This is the worst news for is instacart Which is whole foods current partner for delivery. Goodbye instacart. Hello amazon fresh Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I I totally agree with that and that was something that surfaced today too I don't think a lot of the average people know that but instacart had promised to compete with amazon and now they Are owned by amazon It just feels like I really feel like there will come a time where we'll just Be buying every single thing from amazon. We won't there won't be any other stores You read you read the washington post which is owned by jeff bezos talking about all of the new amazon services That are coming from amazon and all the amazon stores in all the amazon places But the key is they won't be called amazon because they're keeping all these brand names, right? And and yeah, I think that is one of the things they're going to be able to do is amazon fresh has rolled out very slowly to just a few cities in the us and london and Now they can turn it on suddenly in 430 locations And that gives that gives amazon fresh a huge boost with a distribution network that's already in place Now granted that has to be adapted and that's not as easy as maybe it sounds But but this is going to make amazon fresh A much more pervasive product than it has been till now I mean when you think about big companies, you know, the all the big companies like google or facebook You know and how much data they have and you know, you think about it sort of abstract Okay, well, they have a lot of data about me and they can serve me advertising But when you come when it comes to like the things you're buying every day like milk and you know Toilet paper and all the things that you buy from amazon or perhaps whole foods When you think about the fact that amazon sees people as two kinds of people people that are short on time and have a lot of money and people who Don't have a lot of money but have a lot of time and they are Using all of that data to really focus and sell things to Both of those groups of people so for example, if I just don't have any time and I want to Order toilet paper because I need it in a couple days. I'm just going to ask my amazon echo To order toilet paper and it doesn't let me compare the price of toilet paper I have no idea how much i'm going to get really it'll tell me the price But I won't say you know you can buy it here and it knows because i'm the type of person and probably they know very well that I have No time and it's worth it to me just to say that But and they're also working on the people that spend a lot of time Comparison shopping and they're trying to control them too And I think to me that's a little it might well well our general the way that google or facebook or apple treats our privacy Our private information might be a little scarier if you really dig into it when you think about just how much money is coming out of our wallet every day To have one company really be a monopoly essentially is a little bit scary I Well, I mean amazon isn't a monopoly in the sense of there isn't anybody doing What they do somebody else is doing cloud services Somebody else is doing e-books. Somebody else is doing grocery stores But they are pervasive right? They they are almost a monopoly in online shopping not really but they certainly could abuse their market predominance And I think that's that's that's what you're saying right is that's a it's a lot of predominance in a lot of different areas suddenly and Here's what I thought as you were saying that I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right They could drive prices down in the grocery market and run other grocery stores You mean Whole Foods could become cheap to shop at Right. Yeah I mean, I know it's any competitive But that just kind of blew my mind when you were when you were talking Right. I mean, it's that same sort of thing like when I like a couple years ago I just had this idea that I'm gonna stop Buying things from amazon. I'm gonna stop buying books from them. I'm going to stop buying groceries I'm going to stop just because I feel like they are everywhere I don't like the way that they're treating authors and you know the the publishing company And you know, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and then I got an amazon echo which I love I just love being able to listen to podcasts and order things and and it just like it was they got me It was like they knew like someone, you know was saying like someone Uh was saying oh, you know in seattle. She we're losing one Let's create the exact thing that this woman needs and that's a device she can put in her kitchen and You know order stuff and recipes and you know all that and so yeah, they just keep drawing you back in and All kinds of different people because I know most people are not like me and don't order toilet paper From their kitchen I think you'd be surprised. I think a lot of people do You know, I I don't I use my amazon echo to create a shopping list Uh and that shopping list I then open when I go to ralph's because ralph's is a whole lot cheaper than whole foods And it has mostly the same stuff at least the one near me does So I will tell the echo to put toilet paper on the shopping list But imagine if suddenly that's integrated with whole foods and it says Hey, would you like that toilet paper to be at your house in an hour?  Sometimes I don't like the predominance of google either Uh for the for the exact same reasons, but If they're the best at what they're doing and they're protecting my privacy properly, uh, you know Then maybe that's okay. And and facebook the same way I I just don't use facebook in the way that i'm worried about them having my data But I won't stop using them I just try to use them responsibly and only for something that they're superior at which pretty much is seeing pictures of my dog at Day doggie daycare. Mm-hmm. That's that is really good It is important. You should share those so I can see pictures of your dogs at doggie daycare I've shared a couple of them. I'll share a few more of those. Yeah Well, I mean amazon now, you know, you can deliver you can order a pizza someone else for now is delivering those pizzas But my first job was as I said earlier before the show was Whole Foods My second job was delivering pizzas And my first job out of college was working at a borders and now amazon has either Bought all of those or made them obsolete and I just keep thinking what's gonna be next They bought pizza delivery. They didn't but I'm sure that they'll that's next That's what you're saying is they drove borders out of business. They bought Whole Foods. They're coming for you dominoes. They are Yeah, next little week. I mean, I'm just on this. I'm sorry. I'm even on this show because probably amazon is gonna take over daily tech news Show somehow. Oh, we have breaking news Our new biggest patron is hey, you know what jeff bezos if you want to give us a bunch of money on patreon We're not against it. I'm just saying Thanks to everybody who participates in our subreddit Actually bezos can participate in our subreddit if he wants as well So midstories of vote out of a daily tech news show reddit.com Got a pick of the day from nathaniel in ohio. Wait, no Still reigning washington. It was an oh not an ohh. Sorry He's in still still reigning washington says hey folks I have a single pick that has diverse content for tinkerers and makers laser shows with 3d printed gears and cams microwave teardown and repair attempts Vintage computer builds Racing power wheel cars containing battery packs from ford fusion hybrids. Yeah, I thought that would get your attention hackaday.com is your spot If you're an engineer or you like messing around with engineering You got to check out hackaday.com says nathaniel. Thank you nathaniel I am I am a fan of hackaday. I often look at it, you know at the end of Uh tech news today We all well with you like a you know you member because you invented it Funny little story a kicker and the hackaday is sometimes back in my day. We call it the randomizer. Oh, you did. Yeah I don't know why oh But that that was the name of it Huh, well, we we went back to your open. Maybe we'll go back to calling it the randomizer. I'll try that today Yeah, sure. Just see what see what happens. See if anybody notices. Yeah the tom merit memorial randomizer story Said your picks to us folks feedback at daily tech news show.com. You can find more picks at daily tech news show.com slash picks Just a second. We're going to break to mr. Chris christensen With the tech in travel minute He's got some hope if you're worried about carrying your laptop on planes This is chris christensen from amateur traveler with another tech in travel minute In the continuing saga of whether or not you're going to be allowed to have your laptop SLR camera and tablet with you when you travel internationally out of the united states this summer or in the future Good news has come from washington from the homeland security secretary john kelly That has the hope for bringing an end to lapped apocalypse as i'm calling it And that is that homeland security is planning on laying out a series of steps that airports can do to get themselves off The restriction list including things like enhanced testing for their employees This makes some sense because insiders are suspected as being behind the bombing of a russian airline or flying out of egypt within the last year Let's hope for airport security that makes sense and that actually provides security I'm chris christensen from amateur traveler Thank you chris if you'd like more of what chris has to say about travel check out amateur traveler dot com Message of the day comes from andrew von who wrote in asking if google drive files are encrypted He was thinking about recommending google's backup and sync for his mom But only if the drive files are encrypted by default now I mentioned box cryptor But he says even that's probably too much to expect his mom to want to mess with and I could not find anything definitive stating google drive Files are encrypted. I did find a lot about google cloud My guess is that google drive files are encrypted, but I could not find anywhere on google that said that exactly So can any of you if somebody can find a link that definitively shows? Yeah, those google drive files are encrypted andrew would appreciate it Send it to feedback at daily tech news show dot com And then alan char like many of you believe people who use spaces instead of tabs seem to make more money because large companies Mandate spaces he adds different tools align tabs on a different number of spaces usually four or eight This seems to come from unix, which historically aligned on eight While windows dos and mac historically aligned on four Since the latest mac os has much unix influence. I thought I'd see how tabs align in the brave new world terminal Like the underlying unix based os aligns on eight spaces But xcode aligns on four text edit aligns on six So go figure This is all to say that many experienced programmers like myself prefer spaces because code always aligns correctly Regardless of operating system editor viewer or ide Normally I would I would make room for a response from the tab lovers, but we don't have time Thank you for joining us today. No, I'm just kidding We actually have to check in with len peralta and find out what he's been drawing len Hey, you know, I am I you know in the pre show we talked a lot about Shopping and what shopping on amazon? For food will be like And so this is kind of my representation of what that's going to look like This is the future of the amazon shopper or the subtitle of this What's your f'd up shopping list will look like very soon You really got to go to see the details on this Because there's a lot in here.  It's just one of those things. It's just you know, it's an impulse buy Quarterly pound sports nerf. I don't want to read them. You got to go check it out Go go over to my online store and lundproldstore.com. It's right on the front page right now And it's the future of the amazon shopper. You can see exactly What your list is going to look like and this probably is going to be me in about a year and a half so That is amazing lenn. Thank you so much. You have to go check this out at lundproldstore.com buy it digitally or in physical form and put it up on your wall So you can chart the future as it comes to pass Just call me an astrodamus. Thank you lenn stradamus And thank you mega moroni for joining us that pleasure as always As always it is a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for giving me a chance. I I love talking to you about technology Likewise likewise, uh, and folks don't know of course twit.tv slash tnt twit.tv slash ios Anything else to tell people about? Uh, well, I've been recording some triangulations as well when leo's out of town So um, and does he know or? No, please don't tell him Uh, so yeah, it's great to you know, how fun it is to spend an hour with someone You know, you really respect and talk to them about what they've been doing and where they come from So I love doing that and megan moroni.com trying to do a little more writing there When when I have time Well, please go check it out megan moroni.com Thanks to everybody who gives a little value back to this show for the value they get from it Including ryan john saunders, virgil hawkins and many more at patreon.com slash dtns Our email address is feedback at daily tech news show dot com. We're live monday through friday 4 30 p.m Eastern 20 30 utc at alpha geek radio dot com and diamond club dot tv We're at facebook.com slash daily tech news show and our website is daily tech news show dot com Back on monday with miz veronica belmont talk to you then Who is part of the frog pants network? Get more at frog pants dot com The diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this brover So good Thank you Good stuff. Uh now megan we we hang around and chat while I publish, uh, but if you need to go that is cool No, I can I can hang around and chat. I have 16 left on my macbook. So All right, so you can hang around for 16 percent All right fight, uh, but len you had drawn that before I I don't I thought you were actually drawing During the show. Oh, no, I I was drawing. I did draw it. I Well to be honest pay no attention to the man behind the curtain No, no, no, I uh, well, you know in order in order to do that I have to I have to work and there's a little bit of magic that goes on before Okay, but I I do finish it right during the show So he couldn't finish he couldn't finish a full picture in just the 35 minutes So he gets a head start before okay a little head start I really do like your art and it's amazing whether you get a head start or not when you said you drew it before I thought you many drew it on another show one time That was really prescient I saw that actually in 2009 There is probably someone that is documenting that, you know Show 25 52 Lend you little fat ass again Yes, we can Roger titles three guys in the megan I like that one amazon spent their whole paycheck I kind of love amazon spent that's actually pretty good. I think that's the best That's good burning a whole foods in amazon's pocket That that's pretty good for that Music lead to my ears amazon starts a whole foods ball game Oh like a whole new ball game. Okay. I get it. I get it chick with keys are the best tom disagrees Chicklets are good for gun that keyboard Atari gets a box amazon goes grocery store buys a store I have to say I do like this this trend that suddenly started with uh Tom has a thought patrick disagrees on tuesday's show when we can't come up with a clever headline just just having something that describes Literally what happened in the show? amazon goes bougie amazon unlocks whole foods Amazon buys a whole foods in caboodle I like whole kitten caboodle Amazon whole salad I honestly I think amazon spent their whole paycheck wins, but that's just me Yeah, yeah, you can you can mine through there and see if there's any gems, but i'm pretty sure I know no, I just did and I think amazon Number three was of course hat friday, which oh right I don't have enough hats for a hat friday. Hey, thanks. Uh, thanks to all three of you for participating in hat friday That was not mandatory, but I appreciate it. It was it was intensely suggested I did I wore it at the but then my head hurt. Oh, I keep a hat on hand just for such an emergency He lives in part of the country where there are unexpected uh showers I'll be honest like that would help with showers then Uh, it doesn't I don't it actually helps with the hammock when you lie in it I really just looked in the mirror earlier and I was like this hair. I can't I can't do a thing with it Uh-huh, and then I invented hat friday I thought maybe you got like a bad haircut or something No, no, it just looked bad and I didn't want to go to the effort that I usually do to try to straighten it out And if you've seen the show before you don't you know, I don't go to a whole lot of effort to begin Well, if you have a hair issue, you should just do what I do go get a haircut and then get it short So you have to deal with it. That's usually what I do it. It's bad and I need to get a haircut, but yeah Yeah, that looks pretty good Look like a crazy old man, Tom Yeah My whole foods order here yet. You just need to have a credible tech news host You just need a newspaper jacket in your set They're gonna shut down all the whole food It's a whole different character Instead of going the hat route, I could have just been an entirely different host. That's that's dts in bizarro world Yeah, you should do yeah crazy hair thursday crazy hair thursday No pants friday chevino pants friday, who could tell who would even know yeah, I see you wishes he could clip that I mean You can There's nothing gonna stop you Hey, it's the tech oh wait so Shane said in the chat room Hey, hey the tech roger lenn on most of the guys on youtube have that hair So I think they spend big money and a lot of time to get there. I look like that. I know I would say you would just need to take a hairbrush and perhaps move the move your uh, I guess it's a bang right now And move it over to the to your right Move it to the right speaking of hair speaking of hair. You're right. Yes. No, no to the right Yeah on our flight back on our flight back from new york city on saturday My son pointed out to me This guy who's like an internet star He's the dentist with really bad hair If you ever look if you look him up. He's like he's like a he's like a meme And it's a just look up dentist with bad hair Isn't he the guy Prosecute for shooting that lion No, no There is more than one dentist with bad hair Oh Yeah, this guy was on our flight. Did you feel like you brushed with uh fame? Did you take a selfie with him? No, I saw the guy get on the plane. I had no idea who it was my son was like Hey, that's that's dentist with a bad haircut. He just got on the plane I'm like, I have no idea who you're talking about but I'm like, yeah, he has a pretty bad haircut I don't know what you mean, but you're right about the hair. It's possibly a dentist.  He's very relevant. I see him on musically all the time I Feel like that could be anyone though. I mean Like you could see a guy that looked like that and no this this guy I noticed when you walked on the plane. I'm like that guy's got bad hair If you had a swagger about him about his hair Okay, it's swaggering hair Nobody got swagger like us. What else do you guys talk about after the show? Oh, it's mostly hair Hair we talk, you know, man. That's all we talk about Talk about our domestic lives. Oh Have you seen captain fantastic captain underpants captain fantastic I have captain underpants in the movie draft. That's why it's on my brain. No, I have not seen captain fantastic Oh, you gotta see it. It's free on amazon prime. So, um, unless you've decided to give up amazon This is the doc you this is a documentary No, it's a movie written and directed by matt ross who is looking valley and was in big love And it stars vigo mortensen. Oh, right. It was up for all the awards Yeah, and so I feel like I've seen it because I saw so many clips from it, but I haven't actually watched it It's really good. Really? I'm gonna use this opportunity to recommend it to anyone Right because They raise their kids away from society and then they kind of have to get forced to have to integrate them into society and That is What it that's the plot. Yes. Okay. That's what the trailer promises. Yeah, but it is it's just a really well written Story and well written script and good whether or not you have children.  Yeah, the last movie I watched with uh, vigo mortensen was a real downer was the road Oh I was like, I Why why is this here? It's better as a book because that way you don't have to visualize too Too much into how depressing the world would be for a kid Although for a kid, you know, they wouldn't know any better Yeah, no, I agree with the book was easier to read than watching the movie Roger, maybe you are that kid That kid, wait, are you saying this is the apocalypse? You don't know any better I think that applies to all of us right now We don't know any better. We don't I'm still waiting for the benign Uh Aliens to come down and to gift us with all sorts of amazing technology and wisdom Hmm Although they're more likely just to put up like Like an expressway like in the hitchhiker's guide or perhaps The benign aliens not the metastic ones. Yeah, I like the arrival aliens. That's what I want for my aliens The ones that give you uh to converse with though Well, but once you do you can see through time. Mm-hmm Which is yeah, and then it's really hard to talk to your daughter though No, but you would have to because you could see through time Yeah, you know what honey your your your life is going to be good Spoiler boilers, uh I could see through time that I have 5 battery left on my macbook So, um, I can't I can't decide if I should keep talking or just be like wait till my macbook dies Do you want to let technology control your life or do you want to control your technology's life? Is the thing I just finished publishing the show which is normally when we sign off Okay, now it's become an even bigger question of do we just see how far we can push it? Yeah, this is like that episode of Seinfeld where there's like a zero You actually do the responsible thing and go plug it in and reach it Yeah, I should probably do the responsible thing and also work on my other show although this is fun Well, thank you. Yes. This was fun and thank you everybody for watching. We'll see you on monday. Have a great weekend Bye everybody


Alright everybody, welcome to your last talk before afternoon tea. Super exciting. It's my distinct pleasure to introduce Fraser Tweedow. Fraser works at Red Hat on identity management systems. And today he is here to talk about integrating external authentication with Python web apps. Take it away Fraser. Thanks everyone for coming to my talk. Can everyone hear me okay? I've got a bit of a cold so I'm probably going to be talking quite softly to preserve my voice. So yes I do work at Red Hat on identity management things, mainly on certificate management. I'm the PKI guy but I'm not going to be talking about that today. I'm going to talk about external authentication, why you want to do it or to be able to support it. The advantages it brings and how to do it for Python web apps. So I guess the 30,000 foot view is that identity silos are bad. Don't build your apps as identity silos. So disadvantages of identity silos, particularly in a single organization, are that users aren't good at remembering two dozen passwords for different services. Chances are they'll just end up picking really bad passwords or using the same password everywhere. And you don't want them doing that. But then there's also a whole lot of administrative overheads in maintaining identities in identity silos. This is a problem for businesses, corporations and also open source projects if you have a large open source project. Say for example the Python project. Python Software Foundation has many different services that they maintain. So identity silos there also have all of the same problems that you have within organizations and businesses. There's federated identity for the open web. So these are things like OpenID or OpenID Connect, you know, signing with Facebook, signing with GitHub. And there are Python projects including Python Social Auth and All Auth that are solving or implementing these identity management solutions for Python. But not all apps are built for public consumption. Some of you in this room are probably working on applications that are for internal use in your organization. And even for general applications that could be useful within an organization or could be useful as publicly accessible applications still need to have their identity stored somewhere. So even if you're writing for example, no it's not a Python app, but WordPress, people deploy WordPress internally and externally. So being able to support external authentication is a desirable characteristic if you're building applications like that. So what's identity management? Identity management is basically having, or centralized identity management is a centralized store where all of your host, service and user information can be stored as well as access policies and other kinds of related information. So various solutions in this space include FreeIPA, which is one of the projects I work on at Red Hat, Active Directory, which of course is basically king in the Windows sphere, and plain old LDAP, so just using a bare directory. And yeah, they're used by corporations, open source projects, and define user's group's access policies, and also provide your authentication and authorization services. So these will be endpoints where you can actually query, you know, is this username and password valid or is a particular user authorized to access this resource and provide these facilities. Single Sign-On is a facility provided by a number of different technologies, including Kerberus and SAML. FreeIPA implements the Kerberus Key Distribution Center. This provides security in that your users only really need to remember one password, so password fatigue is not an issue, and the protocols themselves are secure. Convenience, once you're logged in, you're logged into all of the apps that you need to access until such time as your ticket or your Kerberus ticket or your SAML assertion expires. They're great for onboarding, so you don't have to go and tell each application about the users in your organization. The applications can just receive this information by way of receiving the ticket. And you avoid the duplication of data and duplication of administrative effort. So Kerberus and SAML are two of the SSO protocols. There are others, including OpenID Connect SSO for the open weblock I mentioned earlier. Kerberus is a ticket-based authentication protocol. Active Directory provides a Kerberus KDC, MIT Kerberus and Heimduller, other free software implementations. And it's supported with browsers via the HTTP Negotiate extension. We'll see an example of that in the demo shortly. SAML is an XML, very enterprise-y sort of format, where service providers receive assertions which contain attributes, which are cryptographically secure, but do require an agreement between the service provider and the identity provider. Free IPA is a centralized identity management system. You manage your user's group services, as I mentioned earlier. You Kerberus KDC and also host-based access control policies. And the system security services demon or SSSD is the client portion that works in concert with Free IPA or Active Directory. Or indeed, BearLDAP, but there are additional features available if you're using Free IPA or Active Directory. It provides a PAM responder for user... So for authentication, and it also provides user information lookup facility. So you say, okay, given a username that we've authenticated, we can now retrieve attributes of that user like their full name, their email address, and so on. And it can enforce the access policies defined in Free IPA or Active Directory. So the host-based access control has a D-Bus interface as well, so you can write applications in any language that supports D-Bus, or the D-Bus binding in order to get information out of SSSD. Okay, so we'll go straight to the demo now. What are we going to see in this demo? Basically, we're going to manage a user identity with Free IPA. We're going to use Kerberus to do the SSO to authenticate to an application. This application is going to be configured such that only users who are members of the Django group can access it. We're going to load additional user attributes via the request environment into the application. We're going to see that we can map external groups, so groups that are stored in the centralized identity management system, mapping those groups to groups in the application. And we're going to onboard Alice, so Alice is a new employee in our organization. First, I'll visit the... So this is a Django application. I'm just going to begin this and go to Groups. Okay, so we can see we've got two groups defined here, Xthelpdesk and Xthemoderators. So these are the mappings between the external groups and the internal groups. And in terms of the users, well, we don't have any yet. We just have admin. This is the free IPA web interface. I'll just make it a bit smaller there. Can everyone see that? Okay. Okay, so users... Hang on a minute. So active users, we just have the admin user and don't worry about Portal. But we're onboarding Alice, so user login Alice, first name Alice, last name Able, we'll set her password. So now we've added Alice to our user directory. Now I'll just switch to a different host. So this is a completely different machine, our virtual machine running on my laptop, which is IPA-enrolled. Whoops. Okay, so we're going to do a K-unit for Alice. This is going to require a Kerberos ticket. So if we do K-list now, we'll see, okay, there's no Kerberos tickets on the system. If we do K-unit Alice and login with the password that I set, okay, this is part of free IPA's policy, is that once you log in the first time, you have to set a new password. But after this, you wouldn't need to do that. Now if we do a K-list, we can see that we've acquired a Kerberos TGT, which is a ticket granting ticket. So this is our single sign-on ticket. When we talk to services, we'll be able to acquire a service ticket automatically behind the scenes for that particular service. Okay, so now if we go to log in, well, this is not going to work. We can see that we've got a 401 here the first time, which is going to have a www.authenticate-negotiate header in the response, and then the second time in our request header, we provide authorization-negotiate, and this data here, which is our Kerberos service ticket. If we now do a K-list, you can see that we've acquired a service ticket here for f224.ipa.local, which is the host. But the access failed. And why did it fail? Well, because we're using the host-based access control and only the users who are members of the Django group can log in to this application. So if we now switch back to our IPA web interface, we'll go to Alice, and we're going to add her to the Django group. While we're at it, we'll also add her to the moderators group because, say, Alice, she's been hired to be a moderator in this application. So we'll add those groups, and now we will attempt to log in once more. Excuse me. And you can see, okay, now we've successfully logged in. The application now knows about Alice, and if we flip back to the admin interface for our application, not only has the user Alice in this application being created, but we've also pulled in her email address, first name and last name. So these user attributes that were defined in the central identity store. Okay. In terms of how this is all implemented, briefly show the configuration. I'm not going to explain it all. If we have a look at the HTTPd configuration, so the Apache configuration, for this application, for the server that it's running on, we can see at this login location, we have a whole bunch of directives related to Kerberos here. So auth type Kerberos. Method Negotiate turned on. The author realm, IPA.local. We have here RequirePam account Django. So this is related to the host-based access control. So this says that, okay, once we have a remote user in our request environment, which is supplied by the mod-auth-kerb module, then we'll additionally go through Pam to authorize that user. We also have some other modules here, but I'll just skip them. And we can also do a cat. Let's see Pam.d Django. So this is the Pam configuration for Django. You can see it's using the Pam SSS, Pam Responder. And the service name here is implied by the actual name of the file. So the service name is Django. There's some online resources that I'll show you at the end of the slides. I'll point you to that, explain how to set all of that up, what the directives are, and how to use them to do all of this. But for now, we'll switch back to the slides. Okay, so we're going to talk about a bit about how to consume the external authorization in your application. So first of all, remote user. Remote user is a standard request environment variable, which, like it says in the name, identifies a remote user. This kind of harkens from back in the HTTP basic authentication days, so that, well, when I say standard, it's more of a de facto standard, but your old web server that did their best job is a remote user. Your old web server that did their basic authentication or maybe a challenge response authentication would set remote user when a user was successfully authenticated in a request environment, and then your CGI scripts or whatever could observe this variable and interpreted as meaning, okay, user such and such has logged in. So the web server sets this variable, and many applications can observe this variable. If you're a writer of a general web app that is intended for other people to go and deploy, so it might be a free software, you know, blogging system or CMS or whatever, you should support this. It's important because people may or probably will want to deploy your application in a centralized environment with a centralized identity management system at some point. You shouldn't assume that users or people deploying your application are always going to want to use a local identity store. In practice, remote user is not enough. Applications want to send emails, they want to say hi Alice, welcome back. That's where some of these server modules come in. So mod-auth-curb, which we saw in the Apache config, provides the curb-risk-negotiate authentication support. There's also mod-auth-nz-pam which provides the access control via PAM SSS or via PAM, and the PAM service was configured to use PAM NSS. Mod-lookup-identity is the module that given a successful authentication with a PAM user populates the request environment with additional user attributes read via SSSD and mod-lookup-identity users debuts to talk to SSSD. There's also mod-intercept-form-submit which in the event that you cannot use the curb-risk or some other SSO technology you can fall back to users providing username and password but mod-intercept-form-submit will intercept those values and then on the server side attempt to use the username and password to authenticate to a centralized identity store. So if you hit the page with the matching form fields that have been transmitted in the post-starter mod-intercept-form-submit will recognize that and say we want to try and authenticate this user and it'll do that via PAM. Finally, mod-auth-melon is a module that handles SAML assertions but there was nothing in the demo that was related to mod-auth-melon and I'm not going to demonstrate that today. In terms of the middleware and the backend application which is what we're using in the demo the remote user middleware already supports remote user and will log in a remote user but it requires the ticket in the case of curb-risk or whatever mechanism it is that is used for the authentication. It requires remote user to appear in the request environment on every single request. If it's not there then the user gets logged out. Persistent remote user middleware which is going to be in Django 1.9 I think. What's the current version of Django? 1.8 So it's going to be in Django 1.9 So it's on head now. Persistent remote user middleware will create a cookie-based session and will not log the user out if remote user does not appear in the request environment on a subsequent request. So using the persistent remote user middleware can allow you to have, like we had in our demo a particular authentication path such as login that forms the authentication of the user and the authorization and creates a cookie-based session. You'll observe from the demo that the HTTP negotiate requires two requests on every single page access. The first one will always return a 401 unauthorized with the www-authenticate negotiate header in the response. That instructs the browser to acquire a service ticket and request the resource with that service ticket present in the headers. So you can avoid this additional round-trip on every request and additional load on your authentication service if you're actually having to perform the authentication each time by using the persistent remote user middleware. The remote user attra middleware reads the mod-lookup identity variables from the request environment. Mod-lookup identity has populated these variables in the request environment. Remote user attra middleware just pulls them out. That's not part of Django. That's a middleware that we've written. We did propose it for Django upstream and it was rejected so we're probably going to distribute that as a third-party package. The remote user backend, as you saw, it actually created a user for Alice in the applications database. It does that by default. You can suppress that behavior. If you're not using Django how do you do this? Well the general approach would be to use middlewares to interpret the request environment and provide the information in a form that your application can understand directly. You may want a system to map remote groups to application groups and roles. Actually there's something I didn't show in the demo. I'll just switch back to the demo and select Alice here. We can see that we added her to the help desk group and this information is also available in the application. She's in the chosen groups. There we are. X moderators. If you have some sort of group-based or role-based authorization within your application you might want to map remote groups into your application groups so you'll need a system to do that. Users. The question is do you want to persist your users to your application database as we did in the demo or is it sufficient for them to be transient? For example, you could write them into an encrypted cookie and just have that information exist in the session or a server-side store but no persisted state in the application. It might be sufficient to do that and if you can avoid creating application specific objects that need to be kept in sync with your information that's in the identity store then that's desirable. And you may need to tweak the views for example if remote user has been set, if there's a logged in user you might not want to show a login for. So why do this in Apache and not in Python? So the Python only approach would make sense if you only deal with Python and if you need to be server-agnostic obviously these were Apache modules so if you are writing a Python app and you want it to be easy to deploy on Nginx or Apache or whatever well this approach isn't going to work on its own. But in a heterogeneous environment using the Apache modules or server modules means that you don't have to implement the authentication and authorization logic in different languages and it means that the applications themselves have less configuration and they do less work, do less IO. Okay, so a few resources there's a Django how to on using remote user authentication this page at www.delton.com is all of the information you need to do external authentication for Django projects including all of the Apache configuration for the different modules that I talked about. For other languages and more general advice there's the free IPA web app authentication wiki page and if you are interested in finding out more about free IPA or asking questions how can I use it with my application there's the free IPA users mailing list and hash free IPA on free node so wrapping up identity silos are bad they lead to duplicate data duplicate administration effort and typically less security because users have password fatigue they're not going to choose good passwords secure passwords and the passwords they're going to write them down so one password one single sign-on system particularly within a single organization if you're all has centralized identity management and most pretty much already do then use it if your organization doesn't open source projects maybe have just grown up with in different identity silos start planning to move to a centralized identity management system and possibly evaluate free IPA as a solution for that your web server can do the heavy lifting for you if you are sending to use external authentication and authorization that's pretty much it so I think we've got about five minutes for questions hopefully thank you very much do we have questions yeah good question I know someone was working on that so engine X equivalents of model curve, model identity look up I think at Red Hat we had an intern master's thesis student something working on that stuff the last I saw was that the project was successful in practice I don't know what that means I don't know if the modules are out there ready to use or if they're you know just need some cleaning up to be practically useful but yeah they were being worked on I'd have to look more into exactly what the state of play is there my understanding is that you end up having duplicate user data on your application and in your centralized management the identity management what's the likelihood of the data getting out of sync and how do you resolve that problem yeah great question so you've rightly identified that the application in the demo was creating user data in its own database what's the name of the what's the name of the module yeah remote user Atra middleware that we're using in this example we'll keep those attributes up to date so if for example the user's last name has changed or their email address has changed mod lookup identity is going to populate the environment with the new information this middleware will observe that and update the user object as I also mentioned it may be that you can get away with out storing any user information in your app's database and just having transient users and if you can do that I'd recommend doing that because it avoids this problem entirely anybody else alright let's all thank Fraser one more time


All right, so thank you all so much for coming back and joining me at my social distancing home office for yet another crisis conversation where we're really exploring how the coronavirus is changing the way that we work and live, gender equality, social policy, it's really upending everything. And today I am so excited to have Eve Rodski on as our special guest. We wanna be able to have interaction and we want people to share their stories. We're gonna be bringing in the story of a father who says that the coronavirus is changing the way that he looks at the division of labor at home. But here we're gonna be talking about, all right, women tend to do twice the housework, twice the childcare in a normal setting. How did we get here? And now what is happening with coronavirus? And do women not just come home now or actually stay at home with the second shift but now are they homeschooling? Do they have a third shift, a fourth shift? Or do we have an opportunity for a real reset? So Eve, I wanna start with you and let's just kind of, let's just start with where we are, kind of pre-coronavirus. You've written this fantastic book called Fair Play based on your own experience and you kind of start with the drunk guy's jacket. You just start by telling us sort of where we are and tell me about the drunk guy's jacket. Absolutely. And yes, thank you Bridget, you are a cultural warrior. I hope we can collaborate forever and ever on these issues. I'm a huge, huge fan of Better Life Lab and I can't wait to do more with you. So I just wanna say that first and thank you so much for your leadership on this issue. I believe it's the most important issue in a sport with way of the feminism after researching this for now eight years. So yes, I did interview 500 men and women and married the U.S. census. That's what took so long to write for like eight years. But it starts with the main story, 500. And through social media, I was able to get people who identified all the way from women who got their children taken away from them in the foster care system, all the way up to self-identified billionaires because that's who my clients are. My day job is I'm a mediator and a lawyer for clients that look like the HBO show Succession. Wow, you should feel bad for me. But what I do for them is I create family systems where dad when I meet them is marching out of the room when his second son speaks and then by the end of our engagement, all three generations of a family around their family business or family foundation are communicating with grace and humor and generosity. So that's the background of who I am. I come at this from an organizational management and legal and mediation lens. But when, so yes, I have a lot of data, but this is also the fair play is also really about my own personal story, how I came to this work. And really it started with a few things, but one of them was on a one day work trip to Seattle right after my second son, Ben was born. I woke up 5 a.m.  I had extra clothes and I was leaking up from my breasts. I had a breast pump with me. I had extra documents. You know, I'm getting to the airport and I pull up at 7 a.m. So Ben had just been born.  So I go to the airport at 7 a.m. I get a text from Seth, my husband. And the text said, some guy left his beer bottle and wet jacket. His broken beer bottle and wet jacket on our lawn. Okay, Bridget. So what am I supposed to do with that? I'm not getting on the plane. Yeah, why are you telling me?  I start prepping for the family foundation meeting. I'm leading that day. Like I said, around with three generations that are around the table that had been fighting so badly when I met them. Dad was storming out of the room and his son would speak and now they're functional. And we had this great meeting. I conclude the meeting. This is a true story. My pump, I don't know, breast pumps may be better these days but my pump was, back then it would make these really crazy sex noises. I guess it's fun. I don't know. So I don't know, maybe pumps are quieter these days but I was too embarrassed to pump in the restroom of the family office building because the restroom was right off the boardroom. So I ended up pumping in a dark stairwell out of my clients building and then I raced to get to the airport. So, cut to 10, 30 p.m. that night.  It was still there. And so Bridget, I decided to give my husband the benefit of the doubt. Really? That's probably more than I would have done at that point but yes, okay. I was thinking, you know, maybe he was dead. Maybe he was dead. Excuse. Or maybe he was trapped under a giant boulder or something, you know? So I went into investigate. I put my breast milk in the refrigerator because that's gold and I walked upstairs and he is stretched out on our bed but he's not dead. In fact, Bridget, he tells me he had four hours after our kids went to bed with the help of our nanny to watch sports center work out and finish his PowerPoint deck he needed for the next day, right? Plenty of time. Plenty of time to decompress from his long day but not enough time apparently to pick up a drunk guy's jacket and beer bottle that we found on our lawn 16 hours earlier. So you ended up doing that and you write a lot about how it was so indicative of really what's at the root of so much of this unfair division of labor at home. It's the expectation of who does what and also how we value time and who we think has more valuable time. So talk a little bit about now we're in this crazy situation with this coronavirus. We've got people, if you can work remotely, you are. Everybody's living kind of on top of each other. People are trying to figure out how to work and homeschool. You've got frontline workers who are going off to work and who knows how they're managing work and life and that's part of what we're gonna be trying to talk about here. So it's upended absolutely everything. What are you seeing? Is it making things worse? Better? Could it? What are you seeing? That's a great question. I'm seeing, I did another 100 plus survey this week of women and men and I think Bridget, exactly what you said, we are at an inflection point right now where we have a choice to go back to traditional gender roles or we can really reset. This is the first time the invisible work, my favorite term for the mental load and the second shift in emotional labor. My favorite term of all those metaphors is invisible work because how can you value what's invisible? But this made things visible and what I found from my poll was that there are actually 12 what I call in fair play cards. So fair play is based on a card game of 100 cards that you can basically have your values conversations around in the home and these are the ones that are causing the most consternation and I wanna get back to time because I think it's really important because it is really, really, really important right now. So this is the dirty dozen. The dirty dozen that people are saying or are having, they're having the hardest time with. Again, these are the sort of they looked at the fair play cards online and they picked. I love that the dirty dozen. Dirty dozen. It's really a baker's dozen if you have kids. Laundry, groceries, meals, home supplies, like who's buying the toilet paper and hand sanitizer, emergency planning, tidying up, cleaning, dishes, garbage. And then if you have kids, home work, which has now become homeschool, discipline and screen time, watching of your kids, whether it's a toddler all the way to a teenager who may be escaping quarantine and social interactions for your kids, arranging Zoom calls. That's the baker's dozen that's causing the biggest problems. But before we can get to the solutions and I want to get there because this is a better life lab and what you're doing is really about solutions, which is why I love collaborating with your team, is to just go back to the drunk guy's jacket for a second because why couldn't fair play just be a card game where you sort of gamify who's doing what in the home. There's all the rules for it in the book. But the core premise bridge that you brought up before was really important because I want to explain to your listeners that while we're all fighting over drunk guy's jackets, who's picking up the broken beer bottle or the sponge in the sink or who's setting the table for dinner. The small details right now, the dirty dozen are causing huge problems. But the real finding of fair play and it's really more important even now was this idea that society and men view women's time as as infinite like sand and we view society, we view men's time as finite like diamonds. And we know that from equal pay because even in the same job, right? Women are paid less, especially women of color. But what about women? So this is what I want to say to any women who are on this call. It was women who were devaluing their time the most.  I had women all over this country, again, for my 500 plus interviews saying things to me like, well, of course I pick up the drunk guy's jacket because my husband makes more money than me. Well, should I be penalized because I chose philanthropy and my husband chose private equity for the rest of my life or doing invisible work? Even in the same job, women make less. So that's a terrible argument. Other women were saying to me, Brigid, I'm a better multitasker. I'm wired differently for care. Which is not true. This is not true at all. I went to the top neuroscientists in this country, one of them, because from my clients, I get to fund them. And this old crotchety white man looked at me, Brigid. And it was actually one of the only times I cried during my interviews of the eight years was when he looked at me and said, he said to me, wow, you think women are better wired differently for care? That's your hearing or women are better multitaskers? Well, imagine Eve, we could convince half the population that they're better at wiping asses and doing dishes. How great for the other half of the population? Wow. So that was a very powerful moment that actually made me cry. And I think this old white man thought I was crazy to start sobbing in his office. And then other women were saying in the time it takes me to tell my husband or partner what to do, I might as well do it myself. Well, that's a terrible argument according to the behavioral economist, Dan Ariely, because of course you wanna teach someone how to wipe asses and doing dishes, otherwise you're doing it forever. Right. And finally, women in the same jobs, two colorectal surgeons, two shipping supervisors, were saying to me things like, well, my husband, and this is heterosis gender, that he needs a lot more downtime than I do and I can just find the time. So I just wanna say to everybody before against the solution, there's no way to find time.  So this premise, what we have to go into the next century, this century believing, is that all time is created equal. That we only get 24 hours in a day and women's time is just as equal as men's time and we have to throw out all of those toxic time messages we give ourselves. Only men with that cultural understanding can we move to a place of domestic rebalance. Yeah. So with that in mind, the whole idea about time and value because I think that's so true, you really hit at the root of what's so much of the expectations are and what's going on. I wanna bring in Stephen and Stephen, you're gonna have to help me with your last name. Deepi Young, you know what? I'm just gonna, if you didn't tell me where to put the accent. So I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and Stephen and I had a really interesting conversation earlier this week. He was on last week's conversation and he put it in the chat. It's like, I'm really learning kind of like my role as a father feels really different with this coronavirus. So we had a conversation. So Stephen, please introduce yourself and talk a little bit about how you were saying that, you know, now that all of you guys are all like living and working on top of each other, you're starting to see things through your wife's eyes, through your partner's eyes and you're beginning to see kind of just what Eve has been talking about, that kind of time and value a little differently. Right, yeah. And hi, thanks so much for having me. My name is Stephen DiPianco. Thank you, Stephen. The hardest question, how does it say my last name? Yeah. And yeah, I'm a father of three. I've got two girls, nine and seven and then a three-year-old boy. And my wife is married. I work full-time as an entrepreneur, actually working to help empower dads to be able to lean in more at home. And then my wife is a therapist. And so during this period, certainly our life has turned upside down in terms of our schedule, our routine.  For sure. In terms of how we broke down, who did what prior to coronavirus? Certainly my wife was doing and continues to do a lot of the invisible work. And it's stuff that some of it we had figured out. So let's say we were pretty good about meals. She was pretty good about groceries and we've had been able to gradually improve over time, downloading apps and taking our grocery lists online and things like that to help us both be able to stay on top of things. But with this, when we tried to improve what we were already doing, often the conversation pre-coronavirus would be like, oh, I don't have time to think about that. I don't have time to get this better. And so those improvements, ways to try to make things more equal just would fall to the wayside. But now that we're a couple of weeks into being both at home with three kids including this preschooler who needs the most attention and both of us working, I'm working full-time. She's working part-time, but her schedule is very much in flux. We're having to talk about how we divide that dirty dozen pretty much every day now and who's doing what. And for me, there's stuff that she's really been super great about calling out, like, I just need some time, like I need some downtime. And so we're working to, okay, she's getting some downtime talking to some friends on a Zoom call. Okay, I'll put the kids to bed, make sure they're bathed and ready to go. And just she called out to me, she said, wow, you did the laundry, you folded the laundry last night, that was great. She said, pre-coronavirus, you probably, it would have been like a 50-50 chance that I would have done that. But now, I think, I don't know, maybe I'm on a streak of two days in a row. And so- You know, Steven, one of the things that struck me when we were talking is that you were saying that before the virus, you know, you might've just walked by that laundry basket and not even noticed it, or just assumed, well, that's her deal. And that the virus is sort of making you realize, well, why am I assuming that that should be her deal? You know, so Eve, I'd love to hear kind of what some of your reflections are, you know, about time and value. And I think it's so interesting, and you write about this a lot in your book, the power of just having conversations and kind of stripping off the mask of assumptions. Steven, I love what you said about, this seems to be a conversation all about time, a lot of metaphors around time, and you know, understanding your wife also needs time, not to always be picking up the drunk guy's jacket in the cold minutes of her day while you get, you know, your three hours to watch sports center and relax. So I really appreciate, Steven, that understanding. And I think, you know, really the beauty of conversation. So let's just talk again as a mediator. So what I was saying to you before as mediators, we often say the presenting problem is not the real problem. So is this really about, again, drunk guy's jackets or who's folding the laundry? No, but this is what it's really about. What it's about is trust. And this is what I mean. What I mean is that I talk in organizational management language. So this is the typical situation before corona, before fair play, people play. This is what was happening. Think about mustard, right? You think about mustard and how it got in your refrigerator. How did that French's yellow mustard get there? Well, somebody has to know your second son, Johnny, likes French's yellow mustard on his protein, otherwise he chokes, right? That's what we call conception. Then somebody has to, and this is in the workplace. We call this a DRI, the directly responsible individual. Somebody in your home has to monitor that mustard when it's running low and put it on a grocery list with everything else you need for the week. That is what we call an organizational management, project management planning.  Now, in my 500 plus interviews, regardless of socioeconomic status and regardless of ethnicity, that's where men were stepping in in heterocyst gender relationships. They were executing that execution phase of going to buy the mustard. And the problem is, Steven, you guys are coming home with spicy Dijon every freaking time. And I asked you for French's yellow. And how do you not know you've been living in our house for eight years, Steven? And how do you not know that Johnny likes yellow mustard and not spicy Dijon, right? So it's not really about the mustard, it's about trust. And so men, why Fair Play became a love letter to men was because men all over this country were saying things to me, like I would do more in my home, but I can't get anything right. And then women were saying to me, Eve, you wanted me to trust in with the estate planning card, my living will, the dude can't even bring home the right type of mustard. Right, saying, what is this? What is this? This is not about mustard, as immediately we often say, presenting problem, not the real problem, the real problem is trust. When I can trust you to do something reliably and well, as Clayton Christensen said, my favorite Harvard Business School professor who just passed away, he said, the secret to a happy home is doing your tasks reliably and well. And that it comes with context, not control. It comes with owning the full mustard situation, withholding your conception, planning and execution together. That's how we do it in the workplace, those clearly defined expectations. But the only way you're gonna get clearly defined expectations is by communicating. How else would you know? I don't have invisible delegation, communicating.  Well, people would be hoarding that about now or then, right?  Right? So, that's the squeeze metaphor. But what happens is that there is, you know, a lot of, and someone just said that in, is there, there's something called male mullingering that Dargene Professor Dargene actually talks about pretending to not be competent. But I actually don't think that's the case. What I found in my research was that when you give someone control and not context for nagging, right, go to the store for me. One man said to me, it's not sexy to have my wife be in charge.   And I love that.  And, you know, all this, all this really, I love the toilet paper notion there. But it's, but there, you know, I think this is sort of like the, you know, the great unspoken problem in the United States or really around the world. We don't know how to talk about it. We don't really have, we don't really take it seriously.  They're not able to compete in the workplace. Men are stuck in that role as well. It really, it really holds all of us back. And we don't really have, it's not like you can pass a national policy even though we're having a hard enough time to do that around things like paid family leave or paid sick days. But it's like the solutions are really very, they really come down to us, you know, and kind of like having that ripple out and in terms of changing the culture. You know, I want to bring in another participant. He said, stay at home dad. And first before I bring a man, I do want to say that people are loving your, your description of women's time like sand, infinite and men's time like diamonds. And that is very, very powerful. Something for all of us to think about. But let's bring in the, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name correctly. I, Peggy Thomas, is that right? He's a stay at home dad. Tell us, are you there? Can you tell us some of your thoughts? Sure. Thank you for doing this. So it's Teji. Thank you. Sorry. No worries, no worries. And I think, you know, this is, it's doing the rounds, but I think when I was experiencing this and I, I don't think I'm the only one, but when you're doing it, it feels like you're the only one. So my children now are 13.  So I grew up in India, was born there, came to the Bronx, lived in New Jersey, and then moved down to DC. But when, when my son was born, I was juggling grad school. I was, you know, my wife's a pediatrician. So I, you know, was taking care of him full time. And then we moved to Montgomery County.  Because it was based on this type of way of parenting that I just never experienced.  And you're in your prescribed role, right? That was my background too. Men, work, women, house stuff. I don't, and never the twain show me. Yeah. Yep. And it was super hard. For me, because I was also one of the group of my friends to get married earlier and then have kids earlier. So I was like, you know, some of the friends that I know are just starting to now kind of get to that stage. Some, some still not there yet, but it is what it is. But what I find was super isolating because I was also, you know, working on a startup. I was like, where do I fit in? Because when I would go to the playgrounds, like no one would talk to me. Like, and it was mostly moms.  Meaning like, huh? Like, I'm like, no, I'm like, they're my kids. Like that's my son. That's my daughter. And it was just such an awkward experience. And I didn't get it because I was like, oh, yeah, like most guys don't, and this is very early on, but I think over the years, even for dads who might be in this role, whether it's by choice or whether it's like, I had to figure things out on my own. And I, you know, my wife was at work and I knew she had a busy schedule because she's seeing patients all day long. So, but then I also knew I had no support system because it's just culturally speaking. It's like Indian fathers don't kind of do what I was doing at the time, right? Like you're like, you're supposed to be the head of the household and kind of doing what needs to be conquered type of stuff. But, you know, and so I was in limbo for a long time because I didn't fit in with the moms, but I also really didn't fit it with the dads. So we'll take you. Thank you so much for that comment.  So we're going to have one more, one more comment that I'm going to read to you and then I want to leave some, some closing comments.  So you also talk about the role that women have in this. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Well, especially for Ted G, like you're, you know, this idea, the start of the gendered idea that invisible work, domestic work, our home is not an important organization that we're just going to figure it out. Well, that hurts anybody who's working in the home, whether it's a man or a woman, right? Because the main issue here is that we need to start valuing care. And so what I just want to leave you with Bridget is what I'm going to die in the sword saying to like, the day I die and hopefully we can collaborate for a long, long time and hopefully one day we won't need to, because this will be normalized. But what I want to shout from the rooftops, which applies to Ted, you too, right? Is that an hour holding your child's hand in the pediatricians office is just as valuable to society as an hour in the boardroom. And if that's what we can get out of this crazy experience, that we begin to value care in a way we didn't before, and I believe we are, we are set up for a really wonderful reset. And I do think that once we value care, then it won't matter who's doing that care, men or women, but it'll help us all. And right now, yes, it is disproportionately affecting women. Yes, women have a motherhood penalty where we lose five to 10% of our wages for every child that comes into the world. But once we watch and model and see men doing it. So again, thank you, Ted, for being an early cultural warrior. Because when we see men doing care, it's really the only way that I believe as a society will finally view an hour in the pediatricians office just as valuable as an hour in the boardroom. I love that, you know, and I think that that, I feel like we could go on for another half hour, hour or more. This is such an important conversation. And you're right. My goal as the director of the better life lab is to put myself out of business where everybody recognizes the value of care, paid and unpaid care. And that, you know, that you need both. And really to find a way to value that in a really real way. So Eve, thank you so much for being. One last thing. See you right now. My favorite sociologist says private lives, public issues. This is not your private life. This is all of us going through this. This is now a public issue. Absolutely. And we need to have. Cultural public policy practice responses. And I think that's another really important thing that you're right, that there's a lot that is done within the family, figuring out what is fair to each, you know, to each unit, but that there's an, that we're all living in this structure and that those are some of the conversations that we need to be having. And thank you. Thank you so much for, for being here. So, and thank you all for participating next week. We're going to have Rachel Deutsch. And we're going to be talking about, you know, the millions of people who have now lost their jobs. We're going to be talking about unemployment in the, in the age of Corona and, and, and what you do there. So thank you, Eve. Thank you so much to my, to David Shulman, my producer, my wonderful, wonderful, but our life lab team. It's a St. Julian who's our, with our program. She's awesome. Thank you to the new America communications team. And thank you all for participating and wash your hands and have a safe and happy week. Well, have a great day. Bye.


The governor of Edo State, Godwin Obaseke, has said that the use of technology will enhance and fast-track the delivery of justice in the country. The governor made this known at a two-day practical training on technology and its effect on legal practice for high court judges in Edo State. The governor noted that the training will help integrate the use of technology into the daily operations of courts in the state. The chief judge of Edo State, Joe Acha, commanded the state government for the initiative stating that such a huge investment in the state judiciary will increase efficiency and enhance justice delivery. These are hopes that this training will expose judges to the new ways of working occasioned by the advancement in technology. We have made concerted efforts over the years to build capacity of workers in the judiciary and the chief judge has alluded to some of those instances so that we can improve service delivery to serve the public faster and better. Because we have procured a high-end equipment for electronic reporting of our court proceedings, which we hope will improve the delivery time for judgments by your lordships. Hello, hope you enjoyed the news. Please do subscribe to our YouTube channel and don't forget to hit the notification button so you get notified about fresh news updates.


Bob Trossett alongside head coach Gary Stewart after a tough loss against Widener here this afternoon. Coach, what do you think happened with in terms of your flow production of offense when Cliff Cornish went down with that foul? Well, I'm not even sure it was that, Bob. I thought we were discombobulated after the first five minutes of the game. We got up to a pretty good start and then got hit in the mouth and didn't have a good response to it. And I take so responsibility for it. I have to have the team prepared better than that. Widener did exactly what you're supposed to do. You know, they put the pedal to the metal and we didn't have a good response. Solid production offensively from Hayes. What did you see from him this afternoon? He was assertive and he's a talented kid. And once he's, you know, when he's aggressive, he's got a chance to be a really good player. February is here. Conference action is almost completed. And the conference tournament coming up very shortly. What's your message to the team going forward? Well, we've got to get better. I mean, this is unacceptable. We've got to play better. We've got coach better. The entire situation needs to improve dramatically. This is just unbecoming of a Stevenson basketball program. And we won't accept this type of response. Coach, thanks for your time. Best of luck Wednesday. Thank you, Bob. Bob Trossett, head coach Gary Stewart back in action on Wednesday at Hood. See you guys next time.


Hematialysis patients often experience oral health problems such as dry mouth, tooth loss, and gum disease. These conditions can be caused by poor oral hygiene, diabetes, and other underlying medical issues. This article was authored by Bahara Frizi, Jan Nangapanchi, Homan Korshidi, and others.