How are you buddy? Man, I can't complain Just just chillin man down in Florida. Are you living Florida? Well, I'm I live in between Jackson Hole and in Florida. I grew up in Florida. So I'm this I'm down here visiting my dad but we kind of my wife and I kind of Have a place in in Wyoming, and then we kind of shift home base down to here for the winter. So Jackson Hole is nice. You ever see Nikki six out there? um He's out there. I know I I've seen him at the store once but no, I haven't ever like hung out with him But I mean our friends or some of our friends know him and stuff. So yeah, you're out visiting Yeah, how's your dad doing man? He's good, man.  So he's he's not in you know, perfect shape But he's he's his spirits are are high, you know See if they don't play live again or no Probably not now. Yeah What a bummer man. Yeah guys, uh, I guys a high watermark for me, man I've seen a many many many times man.  What is it wild and precious?   I was listening to a man. I I love it. I mean, that's what that's what we wanted to Get across was just you know really kind of capturing the essence of Of the the sound and the and the songs and the story and the feeling Of um, you know, it has kind of an old florida kind of you know, because my family my dad and his granddad and you know come from Kind of my family that side of the family has been down here for a while and you know, I recorded the record At Derek and susan's uh Derek trucks and susan tedeschi's place up in Jacksonville Because that's north of where I am right now. That's in like northern florida, but um So yeah, I mean it kind of has that kind of That bloodline running through it. Um But um, there's a lot of different flavors on it Oh man, I mean, you know, it's got the soul of bruce guys, you know It's it's just in there and what's really amazing to me is I know you did it on two inch tape and everything but you really captured just the authentic tones And uh, the whole the whole flavor of a great 70s record, you know Yeah, I mean we just I mean you get a bunch of good musicians in a room and and just get Try to capture the magic and try to capture great performances, you know and That's kind of how we went about it. Um, I don't think it's there's a right way or a wrong way, but that's kind of How it it set itself up to be I just had a lot of confidence in that in The rhythm section and the musicians as a whole to Just get a lot of it on the spot, you know, and and you know some songs really kind of yearn for capturing capturing it live, um, you know when you have a jam and and you kind of want to capture The interplay between the musicians on the spot and other tunes can kind of, you know You can go in and recut the solos and it and that kind of makes more sense, but um But yeah, I mean we had a lot of fun making it, you know, I had Tyler Greenwell from Tadeski Trucks band and Uh on drums and and then Barry Dwayne Oakley on bass and Johnny Johnny Statuella on guitar john ginty on keyboards and uh, then a whole bunch of guests so It's it's so cool that You know all of the almond brothers kids actually can play are there any that suck because I haven't seen any that You know what I mean like no, I mean I don't think so.  No, they're really I mean there aren't the ones that the so I mean they just don't play I mean, I don't know who you know, I can't name all the kids. I mean, I don't really care but But there's a lot of a lot of them that That play and their talents and that's nice, you know, yeah, it's amazing.  I mean, I'm working on and I started singing much later and I'm still trying to learn how to sing Um It now I get playing guitar is comes a lot more naturally to me. I'm more comfortable, but I love Um Yeah, I mean it's not about being like the most Technically great singer, but I mean you just want to learn how to deliver the songs and get the get the point and the sentiment and the Raw emotion across and that's that's what's really important You know, I mean you want it to be like In pitch and stuff, you don't want to just be completely out of key, but um But yeah, like a town's van zant, you know, he's you know, somebody that has great words not the Great singer, but it's just It's so Authentic and it's real, you know, and there's people that can kind of sing a little bit that don't Don't have that quality. So yeah, man. It's like tom waits.  Exactly. Yeah, it's just it just draws you right in So yeah, I mean those guys are would be like the top of Like the example that we're giving the like That's the definition of it or people like that. So I mean you have a long way to get to before um You know, you can be tom waits, but uh, but yeah, that's what you strive for you strive to Just bam like draw them in with a great song and the voice is it's like it draws them right in and so yeah, I mean that's something I tried to work on and I think uh I think the I think the the growth is is is uh Is evident You know, I think people that followed have followed me, you know, they could probably See some growth in that and that department, you know I mean, I first heard about you years ago from white star, you know, I was oh, yeah That's out there. Yeah, man And there were bands like white star and star gun shooters bands There were these bands that had like these kind of uh star children. They're all yeah playing rock It was kind of like a a malibu slash hollywood scene going on, you know Yeah, white star was very white star was a lot of fun and and it was a good rock and roll band but We uh, we were on atlantic when I was in the band I left the band after the band kind of took a break and then I went on it and started playing with my dad Uh, and kind of didn't go back to la when the band reformed and there was uh There was a lot of stuff going on around that time and I was in my 20s and I was dealing with addiction and you know, um You know, there's a lot of fun had During that time, but it was definitely like a malibu slash hollywood uh Band that I mean that was like definitely that's a good way of putting it I was in a band before that called backbone and Alex Orbison Roy Orbison son who was in white star We both were in um and damon webb too.   We made one record In nashville and it's on spotify. It's it's very like underground. It's not people don't really know about it, but chris was like a Like if if white star was a malibu slash hollywood or hollywood slash Malibu band Backbone was a malibu slash malibu band and and when I say malibu People don't really know You know malibu now is a bit different than what like It's kind of uh to explain Like what people call old malibu, you know is You kind of have to just know what that is you can't I couldn't really explain it, but it's not like mansions and Mercedes-Benz is it's like you know riding horses to the bank and you know doing mushrooms Yeah, those surfing under a full moon and driving hot rods and you know And it's kind of an anti hollywood You know thing that those kids had and and we were all kids then so it was kind of cool So here I am coming from florida But I also grew up in malibu. I I moved there when I was 12 So I had roots there too and then I came back here and Grew up with touring with my dad through my high school years and my mom lived out In la and I visited and go back and forth, but anyway It led me back to malibu and I had a great time and I still have So many friends there and consider at home even though I don't have a place there right now I absolutely love it.  Yeah, those were the days and I mean people will even say before that were the days, but I mean for me, I mean the summer of 1999 was like Was one for the ages, you know, it doesn't really get much better um You know, it was it was like we had our tribe and wherever We went we all went it was all for one one for all. So it was it was a good time, but you know, um I mean, I'm glad that when I think about malibu. I think about tom petty I think about the wheelbarries and I think about neo young on the beach When I yeah out there I forever feel those vibes in me and chris robinson's You know solo band not crb, but um the one he did after black crows When he was out there and you know all of that out there it's just That old school vibe, you know people like you said they've got like vintage cars They're they rarely wear shoes But not It's just kind of like freedom out there. It's wild Yeah, yeah, that's the vibe.  I didn't grow up in in the la world You know, but I do know it really well I have spent a lot of my time out there and I do I did come up in malibu and and I was around that and I know You know, my mom always used to say, I mean, I'm you know, well, you know Dwayne's pretty low on the totem. I mean some of the people's Parents are like super uber famous, you know what I mean?  I mean, I'm not to say I'm not very fortunate and very blessed, but you know, um So yeah, I mean I would look and and yeah, you see some of the people They just don't have to work and they don't do anything and don't need to and they just go surfing and that's great, you know um And then but you're right a lot of a lot of people Did do a lot of great shit and um, you know I mean my Francisco Adler is somebody who works really hard and always is coming up with a new idea and is You know his his father obviously You know did really well and and they have they have, you know They have means but you know, he's he's a hard worker and he's somebody that I really respect that Kind of grew up in Malibu who but is always doing something always creating always working and so um, you know Alex Orbison, I mean I have a lot of friends that uh lifelong friends that are And the the bottom line is I mean we didn't really Back in those days. I mean we didn't really care like Who had who's what your parents did or I mean it was just all about You know the hanging and and good vibes. It wasn't about um No one really cared, you know Yeah, other people seem to care more than than we did.  You're out, you know Sometimes I guess I would imagine out on almond brothers tours and stuff at what point do you say? You know what I want to start playing guitar Oh, that's a good question. Um, I actually And I've gone over this like a lot of times but since we've never spoken you wouldn't know but I started out as a drummer when I was like Super young like five six years old my dad had a ukulele and he put a ukulele in my hands and You know tried to move my my little fingers around and to show me some stuff And I just it seemed incredibly difficult and I didn't want anything to do with it and I told him I wanted to play drums so He got me a little makeshift drum kit from the rehearsal space they had and Some like, you know, just miscellaneous drums that weren't being used and threw together something for me and I started playing and I practiced religiously and got really good at it and um You know Started sitting in with with his band, you know with the almond brothers, you know, of course there's two drummers so you don't have to You know Hold the whole thing together as the drummer, you know, so it was a it was a lot less pressure Then say stepping up later when I would step up and do a guitar solo for the first time in the spotlight You know, that's a that's a lot more pressure um But yeah, so I I played drums until I was about 13 and then when I was 13 I switched over to guitar Once I started playing with some some of my buddies in florida Once I moved back to florida We had like a little garage band and we'd practice every weekend And I'd play drums and they'd play guitar and then we'd take a break and I Kind of started seeing what they were doing. I was like, I think I can do I can do that what they're doing and I started picking stuff up and Then it just became a a passion just listening to records and learning and and and You know learning stuff by ear and Then I sat in with almond brothers when I was 15 for the first time I'm out in jail call around And um got a few of those sit-ins under my belt and then it went from there You know start sitting in more pretty frequently and then by the time I was 18 I was out in out in california again and then I like I said I I joined backbone and then um You know and so so forth and so on but um, but yeah, I I definitely You know It was really really privileged. I'm not I'm pretty But where of that, you know being around my dad and and also Warren Haynes every night during the time I was out Warren was in the band. It was my dad and Warren were the guitar players And um, you know, I'd asked Warren stuff and I just listening to them every night um really kind of Rubbed off on me. Hopefully in some good ways, but That Warren era man. I must have seen him maybe 20 times. I was just that's really where You know, of course the the first wave with de wayne and and all that Was, you know, I was too too young but by the time Warren gets in and soul shine comes out Then it's yeah, man. It's just mocked to for me that what was that the You know the second set or whatever the the two albums that are blue and or are red Yeah, well, they call they call that there's like a nickname that the fans give to that era. It's like the Uh, I can't play it's like the golden era Uh like Mock to Yeah, like yeah, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, they call they have a name for it I guess the golden era would be like the Yeah, the first The the the research. I mean we call it the resurgence The golden era of the resurgence, but But yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean we could go on talking about that band for you know I'm yeah for hours. I know a lot about it, but you know Yeah, yeah so Once you you know start playing guitar Were you were you destined to try were you listening to other styles and stuff or was it like? Oh, I was listening to everything. Yeah, I mean I was listening to I mean a lot of what I was listening to around that time was contemporary Well, I was listening to a lot of stuff But some of what I was listening to was the contemporary stuff that was just coming out like rock Like nirvana and smashing pumpkins. I mean that was the stuff that was coming out that I was drawn to um as You know a 13 14 year old kid, you know And before that, I mean I went through it like a metal phase and you know, I was always in the rap You know, I liked to run DMC You know when I was like seven and You know, I like You know, I I mean, I don't know what my earliest stuff was but But when I started playing guitar, yeah, I was really into nirvana and and allison chains and all of that You know, billy corgan and the pumpkins were probably my number one But I was really into a lot of the shoe gaze like kind of dream pop like alternative stuff And uh weasel I wasn't so into but I I mean weasel is great, but I wasn't religious about them, but um But yeah, I mean I was also listening to alberking and stevie ray von and freddy king and you know John Coltrane and miles davis and jango ryanhardt and You know pink obviously all the classic rock stuff, you know, I was listening to the beetles and pink floyd and Um You know And I you know, I mean you get in a funk and then I was listening to Went down a funk rabbit hole Uh an r&b, you know, you know like 60s sold music to You just go and listen to everything pretty much there was a year where I just listened to curtis mayfield only Curtis mayfield I I picked up um It was a uh, it might have been a seed. I don't know if it was a tape or a cd It was probably a cd because I was I was listening to cds at this point. Um But it was a it was like a the cheap bin it was like a on sale thing and it was the It was the live at the curtis live live at the bitter end And that one changed me like that one just here in that band and and the way They played together. Um Just kind of sounded like they were all just sitting on stools. It was kind of like And then later bill withers lined that Carnegie hall is another never kind of had that that same kind of Like they're all close together sitting on stools and it sounds like that both of those sound like that. Um McCurtis is one of my favorites You know, it's not real even the stuff with the impressions the everything um And I've you get to I mean there's there's records that they do later that you know I mean, it's like any band some of the records you're not quite as um Maybe you have your favorites and maybe you have ones that aren't quite you don't dig quite as much but there's there's still yeah, I mean You know, he did a lot of stuff and and there's still More to uncover, you know, I I still have yet to uncover There's stuff that I probably should listen to is what I'm trying to say Yeah, I mean you get the Curtis Mayfield box set and you are you were done, you know Well, I had that when I was 16. So I already did that but um But uh, yeah that when you go and listen to the actual records that he put out like um, I don't know the names of all of them, but but um Yeah, Curtis is great. Um Marvin Kay, I mean You can just go on and on Yeah, I mean a lot of that has to do with uh That florida, you know, it's you know, they call it southern rock or whatever, but it's really It's kind of southern soul rock to me. It has so much gospel and r&b In all my brother's band is a lot more southern soul Than say linard skinner, you know linard skinner it's more Uh, I don't know. I mean, yeah, they both sound southern. I mean, but yeah, the They I mean, I guess if you're talking and like really Wide terms, I mean, it's the same kind of music, but it's definitely a different It's a different a different thing. You know, it's a lot different actually, but Yeah, yeah, well the almond brothers are the holy grail. So it's just, you know Uh, yeah, they play they play different. I mean, they just they just do it's just different. They approach them But man early early skinner The skinner band man, they were I never liked skinnered until I it's funny. I never Got into them until I moved to malibu until I started hanging out with all these surfers in malibu that love skinnered Yeah, around when I was like 19 When I started when I joined backbone basically is when I got really into skinnered.  Like they're different, you know the almond brothers are way more like psychedelic and like sophisticated like You know and I've like this kind of a little bit of a grateful dead thing like mixed in with like their style and And I was like and learn skinner. It's not that and then you know when I grew up. I was like, you know Yeah, these these guys in malibu just religiously were listening to skinnered and like hendrix and And whatever there's a lot of great music, but I was like, okay. Yeah, they're great I love them both. I love them both.  You're not even near the music scene Tom petty same thing and then you create something and And then it just becomes this whole thing of like, oh the florida the florida scene, you know, you're like what scene There's like two bands, you know But yeah, I I love them both man. Their their work ethics were amazing Their songwriting was insane and the guitar playing was just beyond, you know Yeah, I mean it's too it's it's two great bands for sure. You can't can't argue with that Yeah And look at look what we got from it.  I just did a two-month tour with Marcus king. I think he's one of the greatest Oh, you were all that was you Now that's cool. Yeah, Marcus is great. He's on my record. Oh, he is Yeah, he's on he's on a song called cold dark world. Yeah Marcus is on it. Derek trucks is on it and uh, nicky bloom is on it On nicky. Yeah, old friend of mine. Yeah, nicky bloom is amazing. I play with Uh, sometimes when I play with phil lash, uh, you know, she plays with phil a lot. So we've done gigs with phil together and um She's she's fantastic. She's She's a good friend of ours, so But I um and then I also had her my wife and I started a music festival actually this last summer Called horseshoe music festival and we did the inaugural um In jackson hole. Oh, just this last Labor day weekend and I haven't enough we're going to do it again this next year and I think we'll probably we might even do more than One so but we haven't announced that yet, but But that's very exciting. So I just I have a bunch of friends, you know Just come and we did three nights of curated music. We did a like an americana slash Band tribute to robbie robertson night and we did a dead almonds night and then we did a We did a kind of new warlands funky rhythm and blues night And we had george porter junior as a guest Yeah, funky meter style out there Yeah, we did we we had a really great time. So i'm looking forward to doing that this next year And um, you need a comedian. Let me know. I'll come out there if I can tell some jokes. Actually, yeah That would be great. Actually. Thank you for I'll bring that up in our next meeting At what point do you do you start to get into um You know the alt country where you uh wilco sunvolt Going down because that that hit me really heavy You know and let's send a williams car wheels on the gravel road all of that Because some of this a little bit of your record had a little bit of sunvolt flavor to me Yeah, I like I mean, I've always liked sunvolt. I'm not I don't know all of their records, but I mean, I remember sunvolt when I was 16 or something and my dad really liked it It came on MTV or something and and I've always liked sunvolt um Wilco, I love I'm a big jeff Sweetie fan. I'm a big fan of his writing and a huge fan of the band, you know And obviously listen is great. So um I don't know. I'm looking more towards the next one. I really like the record that What I've heard off of the new wilco record too, it's got kind of this avant garde kind of art pop art art uh bulky kind of bang I think that It's it's it's really kind of monotone, you know It's got this kind of one thing all the because he put out the one last year cruel country I thought it was a masterpiece where it's kind of like being their vibe But uh, definitely. Yeah, it's it's bizarre. I I haven't been able to grab it yet, you know Yeah, it's well the Kate uh What who's the producer the girl that I like her a lot too that the girl that that uh She's an artist, but she produced it. Oh, wow, and uh, Kate, uh I could look it up on my phone right now, but anyway, she's great too and and I think Um, they're all they're all like part of the same crew now and they like her and they Brought her on to do their record and blah blah blah, but yeah, I'm digging that Yeah, yeah Now let's talk I'm digging like Lucas Nelson is great. I just sat in with him the other night down here and In sir and uh st. Pete, you know, it's about 45 minutes an hour from where I am right now He was in town and he invited me to sit in and that's That's really great. Um, you know just people like that. I mean I really I like the I like a wide variety of stuff, but What about amps? What do you rock because I see you play the gold top. I saw the video the video is cool um And you're rocking a gold top on that but Over the years. I know your dad. He changed amps all the time marshals diesel your mesas all kinds of stuff But he always sounded exactly like him What do you yeah amps um On the record I'm playing through a deluxe reverb one of Derek's deluxe reverbs that just sounded Perfect like it sounded it was a really great sounding amp and and we just had it sounding great and I didn't I mean I didn't hardly use anything no effects no Pedals with it. I mean I used a fuzz pedal on one song and I used to boost on a couple things, but A lot of it was just straight into the amp. Um Live I typically play through a super reverb. Oh, wow. Which is more more more amp, but um But I mean I'm open to I mean you I'm open to I'm always down to try new things. Um, but I'm also um Once I find something that works. I kind of I kind of stick with it and A good sounding super and the gold top I have it works Oh, yeah, there's nothing better than a super reverb Uh, unless you have a sound man going can we turn the amp down a little can we turn the amp down a little? Yes, exactly. It's so weird where we're at now. You know like when I started it would be Marshall stacks Then it went to Marshall half stacks. Then it went to You know matchless combos then it went to You know tweed Victorian deluxe and now It's like You know 13 watt amps up there people are like hey, can you turn that down the stage volume's real? I have a sound man Our sound we we crank them up and baffle them and put plexiglass in front of them So the sound can get oh we don't We don't put a um A really tall baffle like so I like the sound to get over it to where I still feel connected to it, but If you if you put something in front of it you can kind of Um, the sound doesn't just go all right out front and into the mics and And I mean the sound man say it helps just kind of get a good sound um So I mean I try to keep the stage. I mean look if you're playing like a tiny place I mean you don't you got to turn down at some point, but a lot of that you can do You could do With the music we play there's a certain amount of that you obviously do with the guitar I mean you don't you can still have the amp up and then when you go to play solo the solo can be loud But yeah I tend to play pretty loud you know Dynamic but loud, you know and When I I have a good sound man, and if he's saying that If he's getting it to sound right and getting the vocal on top then You know, I'm I'm cool with it if he is And the people I mean I've Out there while You know Johnny's So Here we go. Hey got you.  Yeah Um So anyway speaking alive, you're gonna be playing in LA.  Uh, I've been touring a ton on it all I mean since it came out in july so Uh, we're doing We've got a lot in the rear view mirror that we've already done, but we're doing


This 2017 Ram 2500 Crew Cab Short Box is stock number 12095Z. We are here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. You're new and used heavy-duty truck headquarters. This 2017 Ram 2500 has the 6.4 liter Hemi V8 engine. It has been fully safety and inspected by our service shop. It has a fresh oil and filter change, all the fluids have been checked and topped off. And this truck is 100% ready to go. And probably one of the cleanest 2017's you'll find anywhere. We shoot all of our videos in 1080p, 60 frames per second. So if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, smartphone or television, turn them on right now because it is definitely your best way to check out the quality and condition of the truck before seeing it in person. And if you like the video and want to subscribe to our YouTube channel to see the videos we do each and every day here at Summit Auto. In the bottom right hand part of the screen is a subscribe button. Click that and then click the bell notifications to get updates every time we do one of those videos. This one comes with the polished aluminum rims and it has Nitto Terra Grappler AT tires. These are LT27570R18s and they have a really good amount of tread left. I'd say probably 80% of the tread left on those tires frame and underbody is very nice and clean. Front fender is in excellent shape. Didn't see any dents or dings in there. It does come with the projector lamp headlamps, the LED running lights, factory fog lights and the front bumper parking sensors. Because this is a Laramie package you get the chrome trimmed grille, the projector lamp headlamps. The hood is in very nice condition as well. Didn't see any dents or dings on there. And it does have clearance lights up top on the roof. Passenger side front fender, no dents or dings. And the passenger side rim is in really nice shape as well. Granite crystals got a lot of metal flake to it. I was like showing the metal flake paints so you can see just how reflective they are in the sunlight. As you go down this side of the truck take note of how clean the body is, how reflective and mirror-like that paint is. We take these HD videos so if you are far away or even if you're close by just cannot make the trip down but you're still interested in purchasing the vehicle you can see the truck, hear the truck and of confidence in the vehicle that you're looking at before you even get here. So when you do get here there's absolutely no surprises and you can make a smart and informed buying decision from the comfort of your own home. Very, very clean down that side. Comes with the wheel-to-wheel side steps. Back rim, no major scuffs or scrapes on there. And the back tires have just as much tread as the front tires. Frame and underbody, very nice shape. Just a little bit of corrosion by the welds there but nothing major. Looks really good underneath, has all the remaining factory exhaust. And the lower rockers are in excellent shape as well. Step bars are in nice condition too. Coming around to the back of the vehicle, rear bumper is in nice shape. No dents or dings on that. Back up parking sensors on there. Full towing package which includes a receiver hitch, four pin and seven pin wiring. The tailgate is in very nice condition as well. It is a locking tailgate and has a backup camera. This one comes with a bed mat and side box protectors on it. LED bed lighting. And it comes with an encore tonneau. It's made by X-Tang and that's a fold-up tonneau cover on there. Tailgate shuts nice and solidly and as you go down the driver's side just as clean as that passenger's side. No dents or dings on the driver's side box. And for full disclosure, this back rim is in really nice shape as well. Down the rest of the side of the truck looks good. It does have the enter and go system on the handle there. It has the fold-out tomers, they fold up like so. They have heating elements and directional signals in. They also fold in like so.  There are no rips, there are no tears on the seats. You do get the Laramie embossed backrest. The seats are in excellent shape. Both of these front seats are heated and cooled. You get a set of Max liner all-weather floor mats. Power windows, power locks and power mirrors. Wood grain door trim and these mirrors do power fold in like so. They fold out. I always like showing both sides so that you know all the options are working properly. Power pedals, auto headlamps and audio controls on the back of the steering wheel. We'll hop inside, turn the ignition on so you can check out the miles and then the radio. And everything the interior has to offer. You can see that this one has 41,055 miles. You do get a digital speedometer, compass, outside temperature display. Range to empty. And then time on there. We're actually going to be putting some fuel in this truck right after this video. You get the leather-wrapped heated steering wheel cruise controls on the right. Bluetooth and information center controls on the left. Again, audio controls on the back of the steering wheel. This one comes with the six-speed automatic transmission with the optional tap shift on there. This one has the 8.43C radio, AMFM and Sirius XM radio capabilities on this one. Also has the factory navigation system on there. You have your heated and cooled seat buttons right there as well. And you can check out your backup camera like so. You can also do your climate controls on the radio or you can do your climate controls down here. If you like the more tactile buttons and knobs, notice you do get the dual climate control. This one has a turned-out four-wheel drive. Factory brake controller, five-upfit switches, stability control, tow haul.  This one does have the Alpine premium sound system with the factory subwoofer. Keyless entry with the remote start. Key fobs in nice shape. Passengers side, format and seat. Excellent condition. I don't think this truck's ever been smoked in. Smells very clean inside. Headliner is in nice shape. And you do get those speakers in the ceiling part of that Alpine sound system as well. You get map lights, power slide and rear window buttons, and home link buttons for your garage door security systems and lighting systems, assistant SOS buttons in the rear of your mirror. We'll take a quick look at the back seats and then we'll start it out and take a look under the hood. Back seats are in excellent condition and these back seats are heated on the outboard sides. You do get the latch child safety system for any child car seats you may want to put in here. Power sliding rear window. Back seats are in excellent shape. It does have a load floor, which is a nice feature. If you've got muddy boots or tools, put them on there. You're not going to wreck your nice leather seats. Otherwise, if you've got pets, put both sides down. They get a nice flat place delay. Once again, not wrecking your nice leather seats. Receiver hitch reducer, some extra trailer wiring and stuff like that. In-floor storage on each side with removable containers for easy cleaning. You can put ice and drinks in there.  Or just extra space to store stuff. And then you do get the heated seat buttons back here. Same trim on the back doors as the front. And you do get child safety locks on the back doors, bottoms of the doors. All look really good on this ride. We'll start it up and then take a quick look under the hood. Oh, it looks like there's plenty of gas in there. Anyways, no check engine lights or anything like that. We'll take a quick look under the hood. I would personally like to thank you for checking out the video today. And hopefully from this HD video, you'll have been able to verify just how clean this truck is all the way around inside and out. Under the hood, we have the 6.4 liter V8 Hemi engine. Engine-based, very clean, runs very smooth. Once again, this truck has been fully safe and inspected by our service shop. It has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off. And this ride is 100% ready to go. Really nice and clean all the way around. Here's your mission sticker. And I would highly recommend this truck from a quality and condition standpoint. And to see more pictures of this truck or one of our other 450 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, Wranglers, half-tons, three-quarter-tons, one-tons, you name it, we got to go to that website right there. www.SummitAuto.com Full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle in two locations all at SummitAuto.com And if you'd like to check out more HD videos, you can go to youtube.com.com. 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Okay, all right, we are recording. Welcome, welcome everyone. This is our sandbox application review. We are hoping to clear as many of the projects out of the queue as possible today. We have with us some of our tag chairs on the call to observe and potentially provide any insights that the UC members may not have gotten the chance to go over yet. We first have two returning sandbox projects, and then 12 additional new applications. We're going to try to get through as many as we can. All right, let's get started with X line. This is a returning storage project. Nikita, can you give us a brief update on this one? Sure. So as a refresher, so X line is a geo distributed key value store for meta data management, so which is based on a protocol called good. So they mentioned that when existing distributed key value stores are deployed across data centers, the latency between nodes, maybe 10s or hundreds of milliseconds at which point the draft protocol will start to become a performance bottleneck. So the code protocol was designed to solve this problem. Now coming back to the concerns that we had raised earlier, so tax storage recommendation is that we consider them for sandbox, especially given that they offer a novel approach to existing functional areas. There was also concern raised earlier around the lack of contributors or maintainers, especially given the health of the CD project. Tax storage also acknowledged this concern being real and but it's also like true across the board for even graduated projects in certain areas within a graduated project. And we also had a question around whether they the project would need any legal or IP assistance and they clarified that they would not be needing any. So with all those discussion points, I am personally plus one for X line coming in the sandbox, but I also want to know what others think about it. So we've had a lot of previous discussion on X line we did get an update to all the questions as my key to recap for us does any other. Do we have any other comments questions or concerns for the project before moving on to the next one. Just a quick comment from tax storage we've reviewed the product the project and it does seem genuinely innovative. It is a fairly early stage so you know sandbox is the right place for it, but I think the level of innovation is interesting and something we want to track. Awesome. Thanks so much. Yeah, I thought they answered all the questions very well and address all the concerns I heard so I'm positive about it. Josh had posted a question in slot in the chat around the repos that would be in scope for the for acceptance into the CNCF, because there is a lot of other items within Dayton Lord. I believe it's just the X line, but we can certainly follow up out of band on this issue just to clarify which ones are within that. I mean my question is, is it excellent and curve which their materialists were kind of imply, or is it just well X line also has a couple of other named X line thing. I just couldn't find anything in their application specifically the three plus they're talking about. We should probably be a bit clearer on the phone because I think when we when we mean, when we say org, we actually mean are you denoting a whole log, I think is what we meant to mean. And if so what is it versus the repo maybe we just need to have a bit of their wording on that because it's sometimes people have an org but they don't mean to donate all of it but they still have an org. Yeah, and this one pretty clearly there they do not mean to donate the entire work because they have a lot of other stuff in there. Yep. All right, so we've got an action to update our sandbox form. And I think what we'll do is we'll follow up with this project through a comment after this meeting just to get clarification on which, which repositories are included within it. Is there a to see member that is willing to take on that action, or potentially a tag chair. Nikita, you'll follow up. Thank you. All right. Next up eraser. This is a returning project Ricardo had reached out to them last time to get some verification or clarification on preventing vulnerable workflows from deployment with this project, as well as some of the similar runtime security projects within the type of landscape. Ricardo did you want to provide any additional color or commentary on the updates. I think the updates are clear. So they don't see too much overlap with the tools that do scanning. We're at the registry level, they do some sort of some level of overlap with runtime security tools like Falco and similar. But they highlight this is mostly focused on the image cleanup of the caches on the on the nodes. So there is value on it and also because this area is kind of still evolving. I see it as a potential candidate for sandbox there was an additional question from Josh regarding integration and why this isn't in Kubernetes itself. Which it replied. Also saying that this is not specific to Kubernetes, but can also be applied in other environments. And potentially this could be taken by a working group later also in Kubernetes. Okay. Thanks Ricardo. Anyone else have any further questions discussion points for this project. Alright, so next up is why my store, why my store is a local storage solution for cloud native stateful workloads with high availability capabilities and full life cycle management of the local disks on the Kubernetes worker nodes.  Alex. In the absence of comments I can give a quick update there so wanting store presented to the tank. It is a local management of pvcs and local disks. Whilst there are some similar projects like Karina that's already in sandbox that has a similar sort of function. Just some unique things about one store around being able to migrate data between nodes and and providing additional ha and migration capability which which is quite different to to the to the other systems and it's based on the operating system and and not additional sort of third party products that need to be installed in the system so it's kind of very easy to to adopt. So I think it could be quite interesting there are a lot of stateful workloads that depend on that local storage and this could be a good way of doing it. Appreciate it. Any other questions or comments from to you see members any observations they had. Okay, I will move on to the next one. API improvement proposals or a IP IP is focused design documents for flexible API development. There are some core aps to specify patterns and practices for cloudy PIs and have a good developer experience around that with robust secure and scalable design to support a variety of client integration paradigms and provide evolutionary flexibility. This project appears to be one of the more non traditional projects in the sense of how we view sandbox applications. So I'm curious how some of how we've reviewed this, what do other TOC members think I personally do not see this as a project I see it as a collection of best practices that could be highly valuable for some of our software engineers within the ecosystem or even some of our adopters to reference but I don't necessarily see it as a project, moving on to incubation or even graduation. What do others think. I have a vote I poked into this because I was curious to them submitting it, you know and seeing hey do they actually have, you know, API management generators or other stuff that's in there and there actually isn't any code in any of the repose. You know, you could you could potentially have code around this concept, at which point it might be worth looking at still whether or not it's relevant to cloud native but there isn't any. You know, publishing a white paper or something like that. It's a better fit than the product. Sorry, they, they, they, they mentioned the linter as Kate, like on, which is not in that or as well on the perverse old is it. So it's a little that maybe code but they're not contributing they're not proposing to contribute it. So, I think they are. I think that's, well, okay, it's not clear. I kind of assume they were but. So I'm hearing a lot of life clarity and what actually is being contributed, even if it did include it linter. So let's just go down that path. Does this still feel like a cloud native project. Matt you're off mute. Do you have any thoughts. Well it doesn't seem like a cloud native project to me. That's the, that's part of it but also how does this project to incubating and go to graduation and I think about that because I was working on artifact and I was looking at okay, what do we consider to be an adopter, and then how do you track what the adopters are. So if a project does follow this, how do you track them as an adopter and even know so that way you can point it out to us. How does something like that work. And I think it's going to be more difficult to track than other things where you can look at their code, and you can look at what they've done and what's been shipped and what's, you know, you're they're going to have to explicitly document it. Which is going to make it a little bit more difficult in some cases, but it also doesn't fit the cloud native definition, because I could take things that are definitely not cloud native and probably apply the same things to it. But how does it fit here is the question and you know we always need to look at how do they go towards graduation, and that's where I'm starting to see, like I don't see that clear path for graduation, and I may be missing something but I don't see it. And I don't see it fitting in this being cloud native. That's just what I, somebody can probably argue me into those, but those are my outstanding questions right now. Nikita and then Justin. I think I have a hand raised up for a while so like I wanted to make that point as well like, I don't see this as cloud native at all I have played around with a ideas before. And I think they're really useful project, we could probably consider them if other CNCF project start using it and see value in it. So maybe we put it in like the data practices or that was suggested. But I don't think we should even be considering it right now that given that other CNCF projects actually adopting it in the first place. Justin. Yeah, I think I think what's unclear to me is also how how to adopt it and if there are potential people who do want to adopt it because the it's a it's a set of, it's a set of Google standards, which are not being donated, but which they the instructions recommend you fork and modify but I just, I don't understand what the how the community would use something like this effectively. And I think it would be, it would be good to see more of how it can be used by someone else and how the, the structure of the repo and the organization works for other people to use it or collaborate on it or whatever first potentially because it's very unclear to me how anyone else would would use it now, which is kind of related to the point about. Well, I think there could be routes but it might, but then it's not clear that there are you can fork, you can fork Google guidelines and modify them as for your own is a is a thing that will build a community around a project. I agree. So it sounds like we've got enough information to move forward with a decision so let's move on to the next one. Yeah, to come to a vote or yes, okay, thank you. Keep clipper. It's a lightweight friendly reliable and stable platform that provides a friendly GUI API and CLI for Kubernetes cluster lifecycle management. They're specifically looking for vendor neutrality. I think that this could do well. Personally, however, they could potentially go to tag security the environmental sustainability there are comments within their repository that talk about minimal utilization and really focus on the minimum requirements for deployment so there there could be opportunities to further reduce that. I wanted to check in with the other to see members and other folks on the call. You all have any comments observations about cube paper. I had a quick one. I see this project as fitting but there was a comment about presenting first attack runtime. Did they do it in time or doesn't look like it. Did they present to tag runtime first before making a decision. I don't think so it was just if we had more information from the tag already. This was actually. I'm sorry, Nikita. I was just saying that they're presenting in tag runtime this cluster. Okay. Any other comments. Do we think this one's a good one to bring to a vote. I think yes. Alright, next up and cube stellar. Cube stellar is a multi cluster configuration management for edge multi cloud and hybrid cloud they've already presented to tag runtime. Any questions observations comments. Josh, are you asking for cube stellar on being asking about the previous one. That would be my one concern about the previous one and unfortunately I didn't get to that one before this meeting so they could answer. I'm not clear from the documentation repositories, whether their management interface is cloud agnostic or whether it is specific to their cloud. Okay, because it was specific to their cloud then we need to ask them about what plans they had to make a cloud agnostic. Yep. Make sense. Thank you for the comment. And the question. I kind of looked at cube stellar. Are there any considerations, additional observations that you have associated with the project. I'm a little bit on the fence about this one. I think that there is value in having this added. However, I'm not an expert in this particular area. So I'm curious what other folks feel from runtime or some of the other tags. Kathy, you came off mute. Oh, hi. I think so this, this party and those, you know, some age, I think it spans a broad functionalities. So there's a party for cool age. And also it mentions, you know, the multiple clusters, right. So there's the other party that handles, you know, the management of clusters. I'm just thinking if they can clarify what is the difference or differentiation. You're looking for the differentiation between multi cluster and what was the other item. Cool age, the age class. Okay, we have a sense of a hazard project host a party called cool age. Okay. So better differentiation between their existing project and this one correct. Yeah. Okay, I think that's fair. How do others feel. Did we end us sir. Okay, so it does seem really early for this project. There's been a couple of releases. There doesn't seem to be a lot of adoption. Just from a quick view. So maybe not yet, but possibly in the future. Yeah. Ricardo. I was just going to say the same thing also because they're about to do some sort of reorganization of their repos. So maybe, maybe waiting until they're done with that and then reevaluate.  I was just going to add to this that, you know, their reason for why the CNCF. It doesn't really link back to any of the reasons we do sandbox projects. They're like, they could run this just find outside of the CNCF. And I understand, you know, it's born from the principles of the CNCF, but a lot of things are they don't need to be in the CNCF. So why the CNCF is still one of those questions I'm left wondering, is there a benefit to being in it for the CNCF or the project, because there's a lot of great projects that are part of the CNCF. So why sandbox. It sounds like re application after the upcoming reorg changes for the repo as well as some outstanding questions on the project. Is there a to see member that's willing to take that on and comment on the issue for them. I can't. Thank you, Aaron. Thanks, Kathy. Any other discussion on cube stellar and Amy for the record for cube clipper. We have an outstanding needs information for that project to get better distinguishments on bare metal. Sorry, not bare metal cloud cloud service offerings, whether or not it works across different cloud providers or their own platform. Okay, so clarification needed not coming up for a vote. Yep. And I can take that one on. All right, let's move on to spider pool. spider pool is an IP address management CNI plugin for Kubernetes for managing static IP addresses and underline networks. Is there anyone that one sticking off the discussion for this one. I'm wondering this is like a CNI plugin for Kubernetes right isn't this part of the communities. No, the network plugins are all their own projects. Okay. I can see this under the CNI project. I guess, but that wouldn't be under that wouldn't be under the CNCF. And those companies have already had quite some CNI plugins. Does CNC host those plugin. As part of it. I'm not sure any of them are CNC projects actually. I can't think of any offhand. Maybe I'm wrong. I think this project could do well from a from an adoption perspective. The question, generally speaking, it could probably do well from an adoption perspective because there are a lot of existing enterprise organizations that are either on their journey just starting out or halfway through this transition to cloud native. There are a lot of their existing problems with their network management. Using their existing architectures firewalls all pretty much anything that they already have in place and just allowing that onboarding to happen a little bit smoother for them. But whether or not it's cloud native I think is a good question to ask. And I have a question for you all is whether or not you think that this needs to move to a vote or if there's additional information that we need to receive back from the project that would influence a decision. I'm not to see but just a quick comment was this does seem a bit niche but it does have uses in more traditional infrastructures, but it definitely it would definitely help in allowing some of those more traditional infrastructures to kind of become more cloud native. So there is that. Do we think that we can see this actually reaching incubation level. We don't have any CNI projects other than CNI itself in CNCF, which is kind of weird because some of them are quite big projects but actually well, you know, I don't know. Yeah, that's the thing I think we ended up with service measures not CNI is in the end as a category, which is a kind of abstraction there above if you want to look at it like that. So here's a different question then around spider pool, whether or not, because we don't have any CNI projects within the ecosystem. Are we missing a potential adopter pool, because of that, and would this project fill that gap. So I see, yeah we have CNI as a CNS and project, and they are quite some CNI plugins. So I wonder I'm thinking you know if we allow this to be how about the other projects. The other part you may also start to apply. Then we're going to have quite some CNI plugin projects. How we should deal with that. Sorry, I meant to be muted. I mean I am aware that at least one of the CNI projects was thinking of applying previously. I'm not aware of any other CNI projects but I do know that the CNI, the container networking interface project in GitHub underneath container networking describes itself as a CNCF project, which I think is true. So, yeah, sorry that the CNI project itself is CNCF but not any of the individual CNI implementations. Yeah, so isn't that just a historical accident of most of the CNI plugins being commercial offerings. It's probably true, yeah. No, there's, in the landscape we live wave and flannel and Calico and all those open source. Right, they're open source but most of those are also commercial offerings that have decided not to put themselves under CNCF governance. Well we've we've we've was the one I'm aware that they were interested in contributing to CNCF a while back. So this doesn't get with you. I'll come back to this though when I look at why the CNCF right. The first thing is it increases awareness. But the reality is a CNCF sandbox projects don't get increased awareness just from being a sandbox project they don't get the marketing and other things. Some people may stumble upon them as a sandbox projects but by and large we observe that people don't get improved awareness just by becoming a CNCF sandbox project. They do something in their own right to be interesting. And then with guidance of the CNCF right, they can adhere to requirements and set directions, but the CNCF in itself isn't going to set guidance for spider pool they're independently governed. And so there isn't somebody here who's now going to set requirements for them. They may be able to go towards you know, some tags and some other places to get guidance from there but they can actually do that anyway. So when I look at what is a sandbox projects give them and why are they looking for the CNCF. I wonder if there is an expectation mismatch that they're looking for things from the CNCF that they aren't actually going to get by joining the CNCF. Ricardo. So I was just gonna reinforce the previous comment that this might be an issue but there's a need from some deployment some end users to have some solution like this. And answering Emily, I think I see this project, applying for incubation and and moving forward. So, I don't think that's that's a stopper. I think we're going to make it Duffy and then we're going to make a decision. That's going to get your question about like whether this, like, are we missing a gap and would this fill it I think this is interesting because it is, you would deploy this in addition to another CNI. I don't see this as a complete CNI in itself. This is like extending features for particular applications in your in your use case. This is where I think that you skate. I think it's an interesting project because it tries to solve some problems that perhaps other she and I still specifically go after, but I don't know that it would like completely be a replacement. I don't know that it would live on its own as a, as its own CNI. I see it as an indirect project as well. Okay, so the question that I have is it was proposed that this go to tag network. My question for you all is, if we send them back to tag network to do a presentation and discussion. What information are we hoping to get back out of that activity that would inform a decision for us. I think we would want a specific recommendation whether or not it is appropriate to be included from tag network. Given that they are the SMEs in the space and understand the ecosystem. I think it's important to rely on their attention on that. Yep, I agree. So, which do you see member wants to champion or provide the comment back to spider pool to receive to go and present to tag network and for tag network to come back with a recommendation on for its inclusion within the landscape. I think to that, so just, I mean, to the tax network, right for recommendation. Yep. Yep. Thank you, Kathy. Okay. Next step is Kpt. It's a Patrick centric package centric tool chain that enables was even configuration authoring automation and delivery experience which simplifies managing Kubernetes platforms and Karen driven infrastructure at scale through manipulation of declarative configuration as the data. Does anyone have any discussion or observations to kick this off. Josh, you came off mute. The first thing with this is, I mean, this is a project that came from inside Google. So hopefully, somebody here should actually know more about it. My main concern about it would be ongoing maintenance, because the current maintainers are people who already have like 15 different responsibilities and cloud native. It's a good call out. I don't disagree, but we should not take that percent. What, what would they hope to get out of sandbox and how is this. Again, some of these projects today are extending the ecosystem not necessarily integral to it. So, perhaps this is the direction we're heading for the CNC at this is more these kind of ancillary projects that would go to what tag this would go to to be honest. Yeah, I had trouble with that as well. Isn't it a tag management, which is something we've discussed before. Is this app delivery. That's all around apps. That was the closest one that I could come up with. Okay. So, let me ask a different question associated with the project. The problem that it's trying to solve, which it's not really clear base. I've looked at the repository. It's more a different opinionated take than actually doing something brand new, highly innovative experimental again it's an extension. Is this a project that we can see reaching incubation or even graduation levels of adoption. At this current state, I can't imagine it reaching graduation to be honest, but I think that this. Sorry. No, go ahead, Justin. This problem space is real and there's been a, you know, a lot of exploration in it, which is one of the purposes sandbox. You know, I think that there's a, it does like managing configuration at scale for something that's a real problem. And I would hope that one day we have a solution that reaches like getting incubation or graduation. I don't know if it would necessarily be theirs but you know I think that it's a real problem. Yeah, and I do see a path to graduation but it's a difficult one right. So when you look at how they would have to look at adopters. You have to have other projects mostly take and integrate their work, whether it's their SDKs or rely on their CLI things like that, in order to build upon what they have. So an adopter might be something like an SDK or their CLI as part of a VS code extension. And I think it's going to be difficult for them to get a bunch of adopters there in order to meet the adopter requirements along the way. But I do think it's possible when you look at it this way just looking at adoption from that non traditional mindset which we're starting to see. So I do see something there. And their reason for it is an interesting one, right, they would like to use the CNCF CLI because it's widely accepted and adopted, and it's different than using the Google CLI which is what I'm sure it's under today. It does allow for a wider contribution pool. I think that is their reason they call it here which I think is an interesting and useful reason. Okay. So it sounds like we have some considerations for its potential to reach graduation but there's a lot of our blocks associated with it. This is again an extension of existing capabilities that are within the landscape. Is this something that we feel given how, given the age of the project that we need to have them come back after a period of time a little bit more robustness maturity, more clarification in the use cases in the problem space that they're working towards potentially doing a presentation and app delivery or do we have enough information to make a decision on the project today, given the information that's presented here within the application. I think we have enough I would say I don't think that you know it has been around for a while it's So I think yeah I think we can make a decision. Okay. Yeah so so for this, this project. This is used in another open source party called Matthew, and it is that that your party is used for class committees class management. So this for, I mean better configuration. It's quite it's I will say in terms of the, I mean, the technology itself is quite it's kind of it's not like, you know, very primitive. It's mature they have, you know, implementation on that. Thanks Kathy. So this one will move to a boat. Next up is easegrass it's a cloud native track traffic orchestration system with a lot of different considerations and its design. One of the things that I do want to call out for to see members and other folks on the call is that the application is a little light on some of the content that we traditionally look for. As well as it's a named product of a company I believe it's a company called mega ease. And it's by the same name. So they specifically call out easegrass on their product page. Does anyone have any additional comments or observations associated with the project. Something that we feel can move to incubation or graduation. We haven't had a lot of network projects come in recently we've seen a lot more runtime a lot of app delivery as of late and more storage significantly more storage recently. So we might be helpful for them to present a dog network and also add more information to the GitHub issue before we can make a decision on those were my thoughts as well. We may also want to make it clear to them that if they donate the project, they're donating the name. They can't have a product with the same name, you know, a more advanced version. There can't be open core or any of that around it. We may want to clearly communicate that to them because I can imagine they just check the IP checkbox and didn't really know the implications of what it did to their business, which happens sometimes. Do we have a TOC member that will take on the action to comment on the issue for clarification of project separation from the product point them to the IP information that we have around joining the foundation as well as requesting them to present to tag network. I can do that. Thank you so much Matt. All right. Terracube. Terracube is an open source collaboration platform for running remote infrastructure as code operations using Terraform to replace closed source tools like Terraform Enterprise Scalar and ENVO. Anyone want to kick off the discussion on this one? I would like to just say that I'm excited to see that there is a project that has taken authentication first and done OIDC integration. So I thought that was pretty neat. We haven't seen that very often with some of our sandbox applications. Are you familiar with Terraform Enterprise because a lot of their application is centers around comparing them with Terraform, which is not a tool I'd ever heard of before this application. I'm not familiar with the Enterprise edition of Terraform and I have not used Terraform personally. How about other TOC members, any experience? We use Terraform quite a lot, but not the Enterprise version of it. Aaron? Yeah, same. I've used it, but not the Enterprise version. So, I would have to do a little more research to understand the differentiation that they describe here. I'm also wondering if that is just a gap. You know, like, how do we know that, you know, the features in the non Enterprise version won't eventually be merged, and then this kind of becomes irrelevant. I guess it's just kind of interesting, I guess, to try to create an open source version of something that's Enterprise, not knowing whether or not because Terraform does have two different versions. It would probably be in their best interest just to close that gap. And then what would happen with this project? That was my concern. I would also be curious about like any IP, perhaps. Yeah. Also, my other concern is, if we are going to take on a project that is essentially a feature clone of a Hashicourt project, it's not something to necessarily do casually. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say like it looks like they also have very low contributor diversity would just do contributors making most of the comments. All right. So, do we have enough information on this application to move it to a vote, or do we need to return back to the submitters with request for additional information and so what are we looking for? Their long term strategy should Terraform wish to close that gap? Justin? I mean, I kind of wonder about kind of engagement for, they seem to be trying to build a product that is difficult to manage an open source, what is effectively an open source? I don't, as a CNCF project, because it's very vertically integrated. So I don't understand quite what the contribution model and contributor model is for things like that. Josh also brings up a point of whether or not we would consider it to be cloud native. Is there enough information to move this to a vote? See some head nods. Right, Amy. Next up, I hope I am pronouncing this one correctly. My Crocs? Probably not. The Kubernetes native multi product call open source enterprise testing and mocking API solution. Who would like to take off the discussion for this one? I think this one is interesting because it pulls mocks and testing together within the same project. Usually, from my understanding, those are traditionally separate projects or separate capabilities for enterprise adoption. Do we think that this is cloud native enough given our previous AIP discussion? See lots of thinking faces. Personally, I don't see the cloud native connect and I think it's similar reasons to the API one. Okay. Others. Do we see it reaching incubation or graduation? This one, the name is part of the name is same as a company name. My Crocs. Good call out Kathy. Yeah, contact emails. It's not clear to me as a company. It says community driver. It's not clear to me if there is a company or not. It's primarily a red hat or develop project. It's what we use to test a lot of our cloud native stuff. So, with the additional information, go ahead, Nikita. I just noticed like it says that lead for tag app delivery is one of the project champions. Should we ask that app delivery for more information and why they think this is a good fit for a sandbox for making a decision. I think that's a good call out. How do others feel. Okay, so we're going to ask my crocs to go present to tag app delivery so that the tag can make a recommendation back to us for a decision. It looks like they have presented to tag delivery after delivery. It's just the question is really can tag up delivery summarize why they think this project should be put in unless I've missed that comment. Well, I think we have that comment on the application itself. We do have a letter of support as a comment. Here is the issue from tag app delivery. So perhaps what we'll do is we'll reach out to the tag app delivery and get their feel for it. And then we can make a decision based off of their feedback. Does that sound good for everyone. Would one of the TOC liaisons for app delivery take this on to proxy that information and request. Yeah, I can do that. Thanks Justin. Alright, next up. Kate's GPT. Kate's GPT is Kubernetes cluster analysis augmented by artificial intelligence. And effectively, my understanding of the project is one it is extremely early AI is a growing interest space by a lot of projects and this is the first sandbox application that's looking to take advantage of those capabilities. It does talk about whether or not you're leveraging hosted or bring your own, which is nice for enterprises that need to have that sense of confidence that their information isn't leaving their environment. So how do the TOC members feel about this and our tank chairs. What are you all feeling about this particular project of seeing a few demos of this because because I happen to know Alex Jones. And it actually is it like it looks pretty clever you can kind of point to that the Kubernetes cluster and kind of get it to suggest what's going wrong when there is an issue. It's, it's interesting. And certainly, but like I like you mentioned it's obviously early days, but it does seem to be getting quite a healthy community, at least, you know, if the Twitter feed is anything to go by. Yep. Go ahead, Justin. Yeah, just seems really early. I mean we've we've we normally turned on projects that are only a few weeks old. And just on the basis that we can't see what direction they're going to go in yet and what kind of interest there's going to be and so I would just wait. Probably about what, let's say a year, six months. I mean, it's a fast moving field.  But, um, yeah, um, who knows, but yeah, some period of time like that. Yeah, I don't think we'll move this one to a vote. I think it is still very early. I there's a lot of really nice things that they're considering. Um, but probably recommending they reapply in about six months and we'll see where they're at. Makes sense. Okay. Is there a TUC member that's willing to take that on to let the project know or Amy? Okay, Ricardo. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Um, next up, we've got two minutes, which I don't think is going to be enough conversation for this project. But the project's name is Copacetic or Copa. It's a tool for patching security vulnerabilities and containers. This is also another very early project. I personally would like them to walk through their use cases with tag security because this changes a lot of the recommendations that have come out of the cloud native security community around patching and management of container images. Um, none of the documentation that I was able to go through kind of detailed where the where this would actually occur within the development lifecycle, as well as how many times an image could potentially be patched before it has to be rebuilt.  So there's there for me, there's a lot of outstanding questions in addition to the age of the project. What about others? Matt, I know you need to drop. I think what we'll do for this one is we'll hold off until the next time. I'm going to make a decision to you see members. Tag chairs. Feel free to comments on the issue for the liaisons for tag security. If you all could reach out to them and have them take a look that way. The next time we have a discussion on this project, we're well informed. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.


Today I want to talk to you about intent in software design, how your software communicates what should be done next. Software design isn't just about visual interface design, but also about the design of the API that powers it and anything that builds on top of it. By deliberately declaring and communicating the intent of our software design, we can write better code, create better user experiences, and keep our users happy. Let's back up and think about what intent really means. We experience this constantly in the form of physical objects and often describe objects as being intuitive. So take this teapot, for example. There's ancillary cultural knowledge, such as what T is, and there's physical knowledge of other objects as learned over time. Thanks to that knowledge, which together can be referred to as natural mapping, the intent is clear.  This also allows us to appreciate expressions of the absurd, like the coffee pot for masquists, because we understand the intended use of a teapot, hot liquid coming out of a spout. So we can understand that the intent of this teapot is for you to hurt yourself. You may recognize this object as being on the cover of Don Norman's The Design of Everyday Things, which is something I highly recommend reading if you haven't, even if you think of yourself as mostly code oriented. These same ideas apply to our software. Users bring some existing knowledge when using our software, but it's rarely anywhere near comprehensive, and it's important to clearly indicate what they should be doing or will be doing. It's also important to know that this clarity, known as a good user experience, doesn't just mean what an end user might do with a given visual interface. It's also what a developer might do while interacting with the API. An API is, after all, also an interface, an application program interface. Those user experiences, UX and DOX for developer user experience are critical to adoption and continued success of a software project. Good user experience relies on a user interface that clearly communicates its intent. What a given interface element is intended to be used for and what is intended for the user to do next. This ideal is what leads to the philosophy of decisions, not options. The challenge, though, comes when UI needs to change in order to be more intentional, especially through the removal of longstanding elements. So let's take a look at an example. We're going to ignore my thoughts about the existence of screen options in the first place. But its current implementation really falls short in a number of ways. Some of these inputs, in this case, the checkboxes for the columns to show on screen, they apply immediately, visually, using JavaScript and they save immediately over Ajax. But there is no feedback whatsoever that this is happening. There's no feedback that says this is saving right now and this has completed its save. The number of items per page input, on the other hand, has to be submitted through a full page refresh in order to apply. The apply button being in line with that input helps you understand that this apply button is related to the input. But there's another problem here that you can't see in the interface. There's a hook to add more options to give our developers flexibility, but it's below the per page option which itself doesn't always show. In looking at what plugin authors do, we saw three main approaches. Their inputs also save over Ajax or they add their own submit button or they just piggyback off of this now really poorly placed apply button if you can imagine more options showing up beneath it. None of that is good. By having this hook, we've said this is where we intend custom options to go and we intend for you to build them if you need them. But then we don't provide any sort of structure for the right experience for the users. During the development of the upcoming 4.4, I was guiding a contributor through moving view modes into screen options which would make for a more logical grouping, but we quickly realized that the apply button would require some changes. So when 4.4 comes out, hopefully in the next week or two, through some clever hook usage, developer can indicate that they need the apply button which Core also does when it does need that apply button which will then show at the bottom of the entire form. The problem is this still doesn't address the issue of mixed saving context, right? Some of these save over Ajax and don't actually need to be submitted over with the apply button and some of these then do need the apply button and it doesn't tell you which is which. So you haven't fixed that yet, but it is a step, it's a right step toward a developer API that isn't inherently going to produce bad results for end users. It's also a primary button now if you can see that. It's blue in this case because when the panel is open, that's the user's intended primary action to save their changes and also it causes a full page refresh. Another case study, over the course of a few releases we've removed the title attribute field from image and link insertion and WordPress because it's detrimental to a number of different types of users, something we often refer to as accessibility. This has understandably created blowback. Many content authors were using the title attribute for information that was considered important, such as for use in a lightbox, caption or browser provided tooltips the way XKCD does. Leaving that field there but not using it was not an option in our core software. Having a visible field tells the user that they should do something with it even if it's not required and silently not using the content of that field anywhere would be extremely confusing and a break in the user's trust in the software. By leaving it to a plugin or other custom code to add back a title attribute field, we require users which in this case are site administrators to intentionally choose to be using title attributes on a site. They must jump through hoops in order to create content that is not the best experience for their readers. An intentional API provides similar barriers in favor of a good default experience. Software that includes a visual user interface should provide solid experiences on both the development and end user fronts. The intersection of those fronts is an API that enables developers to create good user interfaces. By providing smart defaults and clear documentation, developers are encouraged to take the path of least resistance that will lead to a good default experience. Because of WordPress's prioritization of end user experiences and interfaces, many of our APIs require us to think about how intent is communicated or will be communicated on those different fronts to developers and end users. Let's take a potential fields API as an example. Code and inline documentation communicates to developers our intent for how the code should be written, but there's also our intent for the user interface that results from usage of the API. And the developer must take care to communicate the intent of that interface to the user. Creating a fields API then is necessarily labor intensive. Not only are we as core developers looking to create a unified developer experience across many different field contexts, saving contexts, visual contexts across the admin for WordPress. We want to enable them to provide users with a unified native feeling UI by having a comprehensive set of UI components and an API that defaults to using the appropriate interface for a given context. That's not to say that a developer won't be able to create interesting non-default experiences, but rather that they must do so deliberately and hopefully then with thoughtful consideration. We must also document thoroughly, both inline in the code and in examples of best practices for both code and user experience. Anytime our code is producing something that the user sees or interacts with, we have to think about what that interface is communicating to them. This would be things such as where fields should be placed, what kind of consideration goes into determining the right flow of action based on field placement and how best to implement your fields in code. From the earlier example of title fields, which we removed, form inputs themselves communicate intent. It's not just what the user can do, it's what the user should be doing. Many people in this room probably have their own website of some sort, but imagine the majority of people out there staring down at a comment form asking for a website URL that they don't have. Yeah, you say it's optional on these forms, but it's one more burden on the user upfront mentally and in many comment forms, including WordPress up until 4.4, it requires this field or asks for this field before they even get to the comment itself, which was the primary intent of what that user was doing in the first place. This is a fairly notorious joke. There are only two hard things in computer science, naming things, cache invalidation, and off by one errors. And I looked up the proper attribution for it. Naming things is really, it really is, it's really hard. And it's precisely because names are on the front line of communicating intent. So where are some times where we've had to think about this during core WordPress development. This is an example again from the upcoming 4.4 and also was tinkered with a bit in previous releases. This is the WP title function. The word title itself is really ambiguous in its meaning. WP title, the function was, I believe originally intended or it has been declared to be intended for use in the HTML title tag, but it's understandably been taken by developers to be used in other places, especially in a vacuum of alternative methods for getting the title of a page. So what else could we have called it to more clearly communicate that it was meant for just an HTML title tag? Why didn't the inline docs specify its intent? For reference, the top line of the inline doc for this function says, display or retrieve page title for all areas of blog, which is vague even to a native English speaker. So now that it's recommended, that theme's not called WP title directly themselves, but rather allow core and plugins to handle the title tag appropriately. What happens then when we say we want to deprecate its usage? It's being called outside of the context that core believes that it should be used in. Have we accounted for all of these other usages that have popped up over time? That's not to say that we can't deprecate it at some point, but rather that having that clearly communicated intent initially, it is now a burden on us to do the research and ensure that sane, future-friendly alternatives are documented before formal deprecation. CurrentUserCan is a great function, not just because it's so powerful and critical to how WordPress operates, but also because it clearly shows its intent, in this case, by reading almost like natural language. As a developer, you're asking WordPress if the current user can do X, whether that's editing posts in general or editing a specific post. It is also clear that this is to be used in a conditional check. What developers do with that conditional check itself may be suboptimal, but it's highly unlikely they'll be using the function itself incorrectly. Maming in HTML and CSS also matters. WPAdmin says, you're in the admin, so people have been using it not just as a CSS selector, but also in JavaScript, as a version of the PHP side function is admitted, whether or not that's really how we intended it for it to be used. When we decided in 3.5, or discovered in 3.5, I should say, that we needed to scope some CSS for things that could also be used on the front end, like WP Editor, the media modal, and buttons, we needed to introduce a new class name for scoping that was more obviously not meant for JavaScript use and wouldn't accidentally trigger a cluster of JavaScript that was not meant for the front end. Talking about what users and developers can do with our software is really exciting, as is making those possibilities happen. But when your software is used widely and extensively, the intent of those possibilities is critical for the long term. When you make a pledge to backwards compatibility, like we have in WordPress, it's easy to get back into a corner when intentions aren't communicated or even defined. The software is used and extended in ways it wasn't meant to be, and then often difficult accommodations must be made for those use cases where progress is otherwise inhibited. Backwards compatibility then is not just about accommodating the past, but also deliberately considering the future. As we continue developing WordPress and build upon it, it's important that we continuously and deliberately define our intentions. Not having or communicating intent does not mean that there isn't a poor way to do something, but rather that our hands are tied when we want to declare something as being wrong. Without adduping it right, there is no real doing it wrong. There's only gradients of acceptable. Be intentional. This was a phrase to my graduate school piano professor frequently said to everybody who played for her. These lessons I learned as a musician that continue to apply to me today as a lead developer for WordPress and not a pianist anymore were the subject of my talk at Workamp San Francisco last year. This particular lesson is something I've been thinking a lot about this past year in relation to how we develop software, not just WordPress core, but plugins and themes as well. How much better our software can and will be when we make sure to have the background information needed to be able to declare our intentions for UIs and APIs. Let's bring some focus to intent in our software design and create better user experiences as well as better experiences for current and future developers. Thank you. So there's plenty of time for questions, which is more or less deliberate. And you can ask about anything, I think, not just the contents of this talk. There's a microphone in the middle so you can walk up to it. Thank you. I'm really interested in what you talked about sort of optional fields and not having them show unless they're actually relevant to the user. I'm curious if you can share some strategies for how you can accomplish that. For example, getting rid of the URL field in the comments thing, what are the alternatives to having that show there by default? So alternatives for field placement and display. So in the case of comments in 4.4, what we've done is put the comment field at the top, which makes sense in a lot of ways and move the rest of the fields below. And I think that puts then the website one at the very bottom. So you go comment, name, email, all three of which are required and then a website which is not required. So that helps, it just sort of deprioritizes it rather than removing it completely because it is a thing that a lot of people use day to day. Sometimes you just have to remove it. Every once in a while there is a case to be made for having something like advanced options. I like to think that those would be rare. It's probably not true in practice, but that is also a thing that can be done. But I really do think that a lot of it is about logical grouping and prioritization of fields as they appear on a screen. I didn't really understand the part that you were talking about the deprecation of the title field and why that wasn't useful for people like screen readers because those are the impression that was read out by screen readers and could be used as context like the name of the site to which the link is going and the statement opens in a new window so that they know a new window is gonna open. Okay, so there is a good post, a really good post out there about how title tags are considered harmful. If you've read a million of those considered harmful blood posts. So title tags do a lot of things, both visually and with screen readers. A lot of screen readers now ignore them, especially because so many places out there use them for redundant information. So sometimes they're not read out either by default or people have them turned off in their screen readers. So it's no longer useful information there. And also if it's useful information, it should probably be shown somehow on the page rather than hidden behind something like that. Visually it displays as a tool tip which can be very confusing visually and distracting, especially for people who have problems visually processing information. And it also requires the use of hover. You don't get title text on touch devices. So in this world where we really need to be considering that title attributes are not a thing that we should be using basically at all. My question's more about something that you kind of touched on, the Fields API. I know, I think Scott Kingsley Clark's been working on that. What exactly is that? Is that so that plugin developers can better create their plugins or is that for people like us to create our own fields through core? So a Fields API. For reference, Scott Kingsley Clark is a co-worker of mine at TenUp and I also oversee the Fields API project as a core developer. The Fields API project, when you have something that is about entering content and saving it, inherently almost everything is a form field. So if you think about what a Fields API encompasses, it is essentially everything in the WordPress admin. So that means creating an API that we can use in WordPress and this will help things like, let's take the user profile screen as a prime example and it's the current first MVPE priority for the Fields API as a plugin. The user profile screen has a limited number of hooks for you to do custom things with. Sometimes you need to put something in a place that doesn't have a hook in order for it to logically make sense. It's hard to remove things, like actually remove them rather than just hiding them in CSS or punching in with JavaScript and removing them that way. So something like a unified Fields API would provide also a unified interface for you to add or subtract custom things from a core interface. And it also is something that, meta box libraries can build upon. I think it doesn't really replace them so much as provide them a unified base to build from. And a huge part of this also is creating the UI components that go with it. It's not just an API on the PHP side but it is also the visual components that go along with it so making sure that we have defined this is what all of these inputs look like and how they should behave and this is what they look like in these different contexts. So this is what this input looks like on a settings page and this is what this input looks like in a meta box. Those are two different contexts and they may need to look or behave a little differently based on that. So that's also a huge component of it. So this is, I think, pretty clearly an enormous project but I think it makes a big difference for WordPress. And I think to maybe be a little proactive and address something that I think has been on a lot of minds. By taking this approach where things are thought of as discrete components, we make our future safer for ourselves. If we look at something like how we might build WordPress in JavaScript or how we have things that are already built in JavaScript it's really important then that the output of a fields API not just be about an HTML page but also about JavaScript, templating, all of that kind of stuff. Don't worry, there won't be any standup here. You've poked at tooltips a bit. My particular question is about tooltips on settings pages because there does come that time when you might have to describe a setting a bit. What are your thoughts on tooltips? Should they be used? And if so, what would you, it's might be kind of a trick one but what are your thoughts on the design of them so that it's not well confusing to people because that's not the whole point of this talk is to make it as easy as possible for folks. Thank you. Sure, so tooltips as help I think is the center of that question. The most generalized thought process is that if you need to provide extra inline help there's something lacking in your interface to begin with. That's not to say that sometimes you don't need extra text but that you should be thinking about how you could maybe change that interface so that you don't need that extra text or that extra context rather than looking to add that context first. I think that I personally prefer having things inline. So we have this in core where you have a description class that you can add to a span or a paragraph or whatever that can show beneath or next to a field if you need clarification. And there are other methods out there but tooltips themselves are they're inherently hidden. They require a user to break the flow of what they're doing to take a look at them. They can interfere with something like keyboard navigation where it creates an extra stop that maybe is unnecessary for people and maybe isn't visually noticeable so you're tabbing through a form and you're wondering like why can't I get to this next input? And also again like on touch devices is just a terrible experience generally speaking. So there's just a lot of things about that that are very tempting for us to do because it allows us to provide this extra context that users seem to need. But instead I think we need to take it back to the point where we're thinking about why it is that they need that in the first place and what can we do to address that? Anything else? Hey, Alan. You and I have worked on a few projects together and I really appreciated that because I'm a real backend developer and that's what I'm more familiar with but we really communicated well together and we really achieved the goals. Could you give some basic advice at top three maybe for designers and backend developers to better cooperate? Wow, that's like a talk in itself I think. Is that inter-cooperation. So for background, I don't think of myself as being a designer first. I definitely operate as one in a lot of ways especially around interfaces and experience not graphically or visually. But I was a PHP at my SQL applications developer before I found WordPress. So that was my past and you know that because we've also worked on unkind things in list tables. So for designers and developers I think it's really important first and foremost to have at least some level of knowledge of what the other person does. That's why I think reading a book like the design of everyday things is critical for people who write code and don't think of themselves as designers but you are designing, you're designing your code and the intentions of your code. So I think that's really important is to understand that there are these basic aspects of this other thing and seeing that there are a lot of places where that actually interrelates and makes you more alike than you might think that you are. Besides that, I think there's a lot to be said also for being respectful of somebody and not saying that design is just the fancy pretty stuff or that coders are a bunch of insert whatever developer stereotype you want here. I think there really is a lot to be said for respect and I think that in WordPress we have come to do a much better job of that. I think generally it's always been very good but I think that there's been a lot of movement in terms of how we communicate and how deliberate we are and how we communicate that has made that relationship a lot better. That's only two things but I can't come up with a third. Thank you. I think that means you get an extended break, so thank you.