Welcome to the working group meeting for April 26th of 2022 and we have a pretty full agenda here. So we're going to jump right into it. We'll start out with agenda review. Take about 30 seconds to take a look at the agenda. Please put your name in the attendees sections that we know that you were here and we can sort of keep an eye on if we need to reach out to someone who wasn't able to make it. That maybe has tasks or maybe will be affected by some of the things that we talk about. So we'll get started with some release updates. So Christian, why don't you go ahead and take it away. Yeah, sure. So I wasn't actually involved in making this weekend's release that was Vadim doing his great work again. So but I saw there's a new release out so yeah everybody please test it and then get feedback back to us. Regarding the question that came up that just came up earlier before the recording started with regards to the at CD corruption issue. I am not actually sure this solves it so the question somebody brought to me was whether we could do another 4.9 release to fix the issue that is in the latest on the last 4.9 release that we have. We can't actually do that since we have this rolling release model we are now at 4.10 so we can't go back and release another 4.9 version. If the version of at CD that that we that we released this weekend though is bigger than I forgot the specific version numbers here. But if it's if it's bigger than than one of the effective versions, it should be safe to operate but I am not sure whether that's actually the case. So if there's anybody with more knowledge, I'd be very thankful for them to chime in now. I actually came up as a question in the channel and I couldn't answer it directly off the top of my head. How can we check the at CD version, either from the command line of the. We could log into a node and do at CD control right to get the version that's running. Is there a way to do it just by looking at the manifests or the containers or any aspect outside of an existing installs anyone know. It might be on the cluster operator resource. I don't know. I'm not set up to check right now though. Okay. I think something we should figure out that way we can. I think we should post something about this, the documents, documentation subgroup can take this up. We can post something about it and actually say, hey, if you want to know where you're at. These are the versions and you can always test yourself by looking here. See which version you're running because that email today. I mean, this has been out actually as an issue for. What, like 3 weeks now, I think, or almost a month. And like that email today, just everyone just went, it was like the don't panic scene from airplane. Well, isn't this blocking lcp for 9 to 410 or something. Yes, it is, but if you do 28, I think it is or whatever just came out, it actually is the edge. So take a look actually. I don't have it in front of me, but yeah, so actually it is the releases do open it up for that. I've just posted the, I've just posted the knowledge base article in the chat. We can also put that in the notes, but it's at CD 350 to 352 are the affected versions. Yeah, and we're talking about data corruption and essentially. Not all of the members are getting the updates under heavy load. So yeah, I think the docs group should should take this up as something to let folks know about. Just because we're going to I'm sure we're going to get questions about it. Moving forward. And Christian anything else you want to let us know about in terms of. Yeah, one, one noteworthy thing is that we that the latest release now fixes or moves away from the cryo version that is affected by the TV. I don't have the number right right now, but there was a cryo CVE and unfortunately we were stuck on that version for a couple of weeks as you know, and that is fixed in the new release. So if, yeah, that is a good reason to upgrade definitely and I think previous versions were also affected 4.9 possibly. So definitely. Yeah, keep that in mind. That is now fixed in the newest release. Very cool. Now in terms of overall process. You, you were missing access. Is that right Christian, you were missing access to something to cut a release. Is that resolved now. So yeah, essentially, there's a few things I wasn't able to mirror out the images, because only but the has a mirror of the images to quay because only buddy has access to that that is fixable from our side. So I can, I should probably just request that access it wasn't given to me back in the day. There's the the other issue that the whole build system is essentially owned by Vadim so that it runs kind of in his name space using his, his secrets. I can only say right now there are going to be changes in in the build system and we are going to pull that into prowl it back when we set up the system it wasn't possible to do those are PM West tree composes within prowl. That is entirely possible now and we also have something we're investigating which is the core West layering effort, where we would reuse an actual F cost release and just layer our things on top and thereby preserve the actual F cross versions because we've always had had this package version mismatch mismatches for all the packages because we only pulled in the Fedora products manifest and then did a new compose you are PM West tree compose for for KD and with this new concept we will be reusing an existing compose. And we can now do both things within RCI within prowl are completely new composers and also these layer layered composers or just layering of an existing compose and we're going to be changing towards that in the near term. Okay, so near term. Um, three to nine weeks. Okay. 123 spreads. Okay, excellent. All right. Does anyone have any questions or comments for Christian in terms of okay the releases. There were a couple of small but important fixes in this release. One, there was a kernel issue. So you actually pin the new kernel or pin a previous kernel, the new kernel was was breaking on VMware. And we've also hopefully permanently until we have a real solution fixed. Kiways issue with the search dot issue. We put that into a spot where that will always get resolved properly. It was a time issue before we had a five second timer in there and with 410. It looked like it was acting between four and six seconds. So sometimes it would work. Sometimes it won't. Well, we're able to take that sleep out and put it into a proper spot. So now it happens after networking is up. And it just does this thing have not been able to make it break yet. John, can you drop that issue in the meeting notes for folks that are sure what we're talking about. Basically, there's a DNS search. Issue because of the three different competing systems. For name lookups on F cost around fedora. And so there's things that get written to resolve. And that needed to happen after other things. And so. Information was not found in terms of external domains. Yeah, go ahead. There is one outstanding thing that will be fixed probably with the next release. We, we found the third and issue with the installer. And that will be the installer with creating a bootstrap node and not being able to resolve API int that fixes and will probably be in the next release. It's already in the 410 and it's been approved and all that just missed it by a day for this one. And there is one still outstanding issue. Again, this is a Kaiways issue where the master controllers don't seem to sync properly at the beginning. That's, we don't know what's causing that. I mean unless Christian, you have an idea. I only have a time. So this is the the MCO and the machine conflict that that gets rendered right so the two, the two machine conflicts that aren't picked up some sometimes are not picked up and not included in the in the rendered machine configuration. Those are exactly the two machine conflicts we are adding in our custom okay D build process. Yep, though it. Yeah, and I don't know why they sometimes get picked up and sometimes they don't but yet also seems like a timing issue they seem to be created to at two later stage where the MCO, or the MCC has already begun, which is the machine that the controller has already begun rendering that that configuration and therefore doesn't include those two. Yeah, not sure how are we. Yeah, I don't really know the way forward or what the fix would be. Maybe it just goes away with our new build system I'm kind of hoping, hoping that but yeah, I don't really know what causes it. It's it's definitely specific to our builds because it's it only really only happens with our to wrestle. It's gotta be in the bootstrap process because this never happens on the worker side and the worker side is identical. Right. Yeah, it has to be some kind of timing that we don't create them early enough or something. Those resources. Yeah. So that'll be on somebody's list at some point to look at. I did look at that issue again and I wasn't sure there's no bugzilla link to it. I think it would be a good idea to open a bugzilla and put that on on the machine config operator team to. I know that they've already been tagged on the GitHub issue, but if they have a bugzilla, they really have something to to look at and they have to look at that. So that might be I'll reach out to him. Yeah, if he can't do it, I'll do it. I haven't looked at it yet. There is an issue that's going to hit us with 411 unless the fix comes again for the installer. There's something they've gone to a new a non for version of some of the installer code that is causing issues with bootstrap deleted or some issues in there so that's out there also. But just about that issue, a colleague of mine on my team is looking is looking at that, as we speak, and I think you'll probably be fixed before 411 is released because that will also affect, affect open ship compute from the product. Probably go away. Yeah, he reached out to me earlier today, so I gave him some information. So hopefully that's just in the other thing that I know Bruce is interested in this. They may have a fix for the set that stuff. I guess we're testing it in development. Hopefully they'll push it to stable. But what I don't know is how long it takes for that to get to. But they seem to have found what the issue is. Dusty can probably speak to that. Let's let I know Dusty came in sort of. Dusty is on a limited time schedule. So let's actually transition quickly to. Updates and then bounce back to anything else just so that we can let Dusty take care of other things. Dusty any updates? Hey, I don't have anything in particular. We're getting pretty close to the fedora 36 release. So, at that point, our testing stream will get moved over to fedora 36. And then shortly after that stable. So, Christian, I don't know if we have any like advanced testing of like next, but that would be useful if we find issues there to report those and see if we can figure them out early on. Rather than you guys having a freeze. Yeah, we do have that one branch that builds off of the. The dev out of custom also will probably get a build from that. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And just to mention one of one of the changes there was IP tables moving to NF tables by default, which shouldn't be an issue because Red Hat Core OS. Or really made that change sometime ago. And then there was. What else was there? We have pod man 4.0. In fedora 36, which had some breaking changes to the pod man API. I don't remember if O. K. D. slash OCP still uses pod man for anything at all these days. I know early on there was some. You know, pulling from a registry type stuff that was happening, but I don't know if we do that anymore, but that's just something else to consider. I think it's still potman is still used as a fallback in case OC isn't there, but I'm not sure in which cases that would actually happen. And I hope that API hasn't changed too much cool images. Yeah, if it's if it's just a scripted change, like if it's executing pod man in a script, it should be fine. The only thing I think that really changed in a breaking way is if you're using the pod man API. So not the Docker API, which pod man also supports but the pod man specific API. There were some breaking changes there. Yeah, as far as I know, we don't use that anywhere. Cool. Yeah, the CLI itself should have no breaking changes if I understand correctly. Excellent. Any questions or comments for dusty in regards to stuff. I guess this is to Christian and dusty. I mean, I know that we have the kernel pinned right now. I know we don't want to keep that pin. How do we go forward and and testing new kernels to see if we can pin this issue. So there's a bugzilla for this and we should definitely follow what what happens there maybe they'll patch the kernel in Fedora maybe and I think there was already an upstream fix proposed. So maybe that gets back parted by the kernel maintainers or even upstream. We'll just have to wait for now. I wonder if we wait till 1111 what 4.11. Oh, that might be a few months out still. So yeah, I'm not sure maybe we can if there's no CBEs or other big things popping up in the meantime, maybe we can do that. Yeah. Once there's a fix, we'll fast track it in Fedora Core OS. But like it's not it's not currently pinned in Fedora Core OS just because we didn't catch it before it hit stable. And because people are working on fixing it upstream, we're not necessarily chasing the Fedora kernel maintainer to revert that commit. So we're hoping that basically a fix comes in and we can just get it back ported. I can as soon as it's ready, I can test it. I mean, cause I was able to recreate it 100%. So that'll be perfect. That's what's important reproducibility. Yeah. All right, any other questions or comments for dusty. All right, thank you dusty for your time. Appreciate you popping in to give us the latest. No problem. I might hang around for a minute, but you might see me drop off too. Okay. So when to bounce back to speaking of Kai. He brought up an issue with the registry. In four nine pointing to the catalog in four nine samples catalog pointing to sent us images that were that there. It's pointing to registry red hat registry dot red hat.io instead of quay or key, as Brian would say. So we know there aren't any for nine updates coming out. Does anyone know if 410 if that properly points in the correct place. I haven't checked yet. But Kai pointed out that the sent us based images, all of the sent us based images point to non existent places and registry dot red hat. Anyone has any insight on that. If not, I'll dig and take a look. Okay. All right. Man, we did buy him a beer sometime or whatever the beverage of his choices that guy finds so many bugs issues like everything. It's pretty amazing. Brian. Yeah, go ahead. So I was just going to ask is that specifically in the samples. So I know we have quite a few operators in the operator catalog that are also in the same place. I think it's just in the samples I'm pretty sure it's just. Okay. All right, let's move on now to actually Brian with documents updates. Okay, so we had our meeting last week and a couple of things. So, we're going to start planning to move to the new it organization the okd project get organization. What we want to do is you want to plan it and do a single move so we're not left with people spanning multiple repos and we get all confused. So we're going to start that work. We've shut down the community repo already removed everything out of this so that hopefully is gone now we requested it be deleted. So we're now just the. Sorry, Dan. I believe it was Christian I think put in the request for me. Okay, that's great. I put in the request to archive it, but I'm not sure they've done it already but yeah it's in the works. Okay, so that's going to me leave the main okd repo and then obviously the okd.io repo that will move across to the new home at some point. And we'll keep you updated as we sort of make that plan and when we're going to do that move and we are working on the technical documentation. So we want to add a new section to okd.io, which is covering technical documentation and the tasks and I did put a link to the discussion forum. So we have this conversation last meeting. If you have any best practices tips, if you know of any sort of obscure places within the must gather logs, where it's useful to go check any little sort of magic scripts that you've got to help work out when things go wrong. If you can just dump them in that discussion thread. Again, the links in the tasks at the bottom of this meeting. And then the docs groups probably me will render that into something worthwhile on the okd site. And also I'm still working through a work sample of how to compile modules. John gave me some very useful information. So I'm working through that we'll write that up and we'll also get that pushed there. At some point, Christian, as we sort of move the build, we do want to sort of write up some things like the machine config operator and some of the other sort of bits of magic that form up a release just to help the community understand how it all works and when they're looking at the repos and help them do that. So that is sort of a long term project to actually get some technical documentation there and hopefully keep it updated as as the project moves on. And regarding okd.io, we're going to reorganize the working group site. And we're going to make this main group and more prominent, and we're going to rename all the subgroups as subgroups. And they're going to be in a separate section as subgroups, just so it's very clear that this is the primary group. And then there are subgroups underneath. So just be tidying that out. And I'm going to pass it on to Jamie to talk about the subchairs because we need to do one thing to get our becoming in line with what we put in our sort of code of conduct. Right, so in terms of the subgroup chairs, I wanted to be able to make it a public. Like, hey, the okd working group is doing this and I wanted to be able to have post something on Twitter that says the okd working group is doing this. It turns out I don't have everything I need to get into the Twitter so I'm going to work with Diane on that tomorrow. It turns out I need an email address for verification. So, but once we're able to communicate out that we are actually having a process of defining chairs, then we'll move forward with that. It hasn't been a big rush until now. I didn't want to rush it because what I want to do is make sure that we let the community know that we are a as much as possible open and democratic ish community. And let people know that that their participation is appreciated and that there's a path for them to get involved. And this factors into the larger discussion of like outlining a path for involvement, which we've talked about before. So once the Twitter stuff is cleared away and we can actively like promote that we're following this process, then and that will be in the next couple days, then we will actually do that. And the other thing is I'm still behind in posting videos it. I have two more to do. And then I'll be, but then there's this video today. I just, I needed to get more hard drive space because right now we are at dozens and dozens of gigabytes of meeting videos, which is fantastic, but I'm getting my own storage actually for this. So then meeting the meeting videos will be up and also the meeting minutes have started to get posted to the OCD IO site and the link to the minutes will start getting included into the video description. So people can actually go into the video description watch and go to the meeting minutes as well. Okay, that's passing back to Brian now. Anything else for docs. No, I think that was it. Oh, yes, there was a still a call for a quest for anybody that wants to go and love, see or see. We are still looking for somebody to go love that project and create the updates. Yes. And I think it might be something that we look at to see if we can get a copy. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I'm trying to find that raise your hand button, but I can't find it on my screen. I'm trying there's a group inside of red hat. I think I mentioned this on the docs called called operate first and they have a cloud. I think it's based on mass open cloud. It's in Massachusetts somewhere and they have some cloud computing resource and some bandwidth and they like building the ICD stuff. So I've asked them and shared with them. Cheros build upstream without a paddle log posts and ask them to take a look at trying to recreate that on operate first and so I'm going to try and get them to come to the working group and talk about their adventures there. But what my goal is is kind of using this as a POC with this group to see if we can do if we can get a community build process for CRC on this cloud that we can help manage and and automate and that I was hesitating at first because it's at Boston University. Thanks like that that I was hesitating at first because I didn't think it was that much uptake on CRC. I didn't want to spend bandwidth on that but I've been told that there are people actually using it and who want it. So we'll see we'll use that and then maybe if it all goes well, we might even be able to build a community build process for OKD on that cloud too. So I'm just just so I'm being transparent about what I'm doing in the background here. I'm trying to find some additional resources and the compute resources to do the CRC and to do a community build OKD on F cost sometime in the not too distant future if that works out. I'm not positive that the OK the operate first cloud is optimal for building it. But I thought the CRC would be a first good test. So there's your quick update and I will now go back and hunt them down and see if they got any any further than I in the past week since I last talked to them. Fantastic. Thank you Diane. What does this group think about tasking the documentation subgroup with maybe moving Charo's document into the OKD space so that it's actually an OKD document and we can build and update it without having to rely on Charo. Charo's incredibly busy these days and I think the more that we can make it institutional knowledge versus an individual's knowledge, it would benefit. Does anyone see any downsides to that as long as Charo's happy that we take his content and move it pilfer from him. Sure. Okay, so that's chat but I'll say it again like the maintenance of that. I think if we bring it into OKD we should build the notion of like someone like trying it and if it fails updating it because like just bringing Charo stuff in and letting it bit rot under the OKD title is probably not not nearly as cool as letting it bit rot under Charo's title. Yeah, one of the things that I talked about as we were going through the guides and those folks aren't here today, but the folks that are going through and helping get the guides updated. The idea was I suggested the idea of let's create a calendar that every year cycles through our documentation or every quarter. However often we can do it cycles for our documentation and we assign someone or someone volunteers to look at that document and verify its updatedness. You know, it's, it's freshness and verify that it's not stale and that we do that on a regular process. So a lot of groups I'm involved with will do that with their policies, their guidelines or whatever. I think we could do that with our documentation is just create a calendar and get volunteers. Right. And if we, yeah, Brian. So I think another part of that is a few meetings ago we talked about automation. If we can automate a lot of the processes that are within our documentation, then we get kicked by a failure notice if our documentation is out of date. I think that's also a very useful way of keeping documentation up to date. And just make sure that we link the if you fix the build, you got to fix the documentation. So the to stay in sync. I think that's also and sort of reviving your project. I know that you gave us the link to some scripts that you'd written Jamie is reviving that project and actually try and automate as much of the, the instructions that we put on okay. So we know when it's our date. Yeah. All right. I think that's it for documentation. Let's keep moving on. So discussion items are there is there anything in the discussion of the repo discussion section repo that folks want to pull out and talk about or think needs special attention. I didn't notice anything I don't think that. So there's one about the upgrading the 410 the new warnings. They're there on purpose. Those were specifically added in 410. Right. Future API stuff is coming out and they got to get off of it before they upgrade on a certain point. Right. And specifically for it was like internal resources that were that were being flagged. And he was wondering if there's anything you should do to fix those I don't think it was anything that any like user workloads. Yeah, I think we just have to hope that upstream gets to them, which they will. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure they will. I think we like 1 of the things I've listed in this is like, does it make sense in the meeting notes? 1 of the things I put in the meeting notes is does it make sense to kick this to the documentation working for us to come up with our own little explanation of this. And maybe help folks understand what is an internal workload. And what is an external workload because the red hat documentation itself doesn't do a very good job. I notice folks are running the command. And not really clear. It's not clear what they're looking at. Right. And so I've seen several comments that are like, yeah, I got the warning messages. I ran the was it mcp or whatever. And I don't know what I'm looking at. Does it make sense for okay D to write something up that sort of helps our users sort of understand what they're looking at.  If we can, if we can make the documentation a bit more clear for somebody, I mean, kind of in the FAQ. Sure. Christian, you've got your hand raised. Yeah, I found the button somewhere in a menu. We do actually because it's a separate build for the OKD docs, we can actually put some of those comments we don't need to put them on our OKD IO specific docs we can actually put them in the main docs and just put them in like a specific statement that says this only display this for or okay D. There's actually we have this one docs person from rat at Michael Burke who has been helping a lot with with our issues. He's now, I think, planning another PR to add a list for the open stack variant that just, yeah, essentially the compatibility matrix. Because in current 4.10 we only I believe support open. Is that ret at open stack 16 which is open stack train upstream and he'll he'll put that that list for for the upstream version names in there too. We can actually use that more heavily and just put OKD specific comments in the actual docs. And then shows up to our work our documentation subgroup meeting. Awesome. Yeah, we can definitely kick that there if if folks feel that that's the appropriate place versus something on the site. Would have been. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Christian. Can we repeat the questions so I don't talk and talk. Well, you know, the question might be is, are there any downsides to putting it into the product document so Christian in the in the documentation working group we separated into product documentation versus sort of community documentation. Are there any downsides that anyone can think of of putting it in the product documentation versus the community document. I don't want to belabor this but I'm just curious if anyone's using it. If you have like specific workarounds or commands for things you might have to do in that in that instance. We have these things as kind of warnings or notes on the on the product docs and if there's something you need to do specifically for Fedora. In that case, I think it would be perfectly fine to put them in the docs as well and then later on with that version of whatever software you have to use. It comes into the product that people can just move that that note. So I think it's, yeah, and obviously it'll get reviewed by the product folks, you know, the docs folks that maintain that repository. So, trying to move as much valuable information into the docs I think is is a good thing. And since we can just kind of exclude them from the product docs by by putting them into the the if statement. I think, yeah, we should try to to use that as heavily as possible for concise obviously concise notes and tips and warnings and whatnot. If, yeah, if you think it's a good place, I think you should try to put them in. Any other thoughts on this particular topic folks. All right, any other discussion items worth mentioning here. I don't see anything here in the past couple weeks that stands out. All right, moving on to issues what we've we talked about most of the issues earlier on but are there any other issues in the issues section that we should bring to folks attention. What's the I've seen a couple of these float by about f costs and our costs getting mixed up in the installer for bare metal. Does anyone know about that and what what's happening there. We did receive an issue about that. And someone mentioned in the channel about this, but I don't know anything about it. Has anyone seen this where a bare metal okd install pulls up our costs notes. It seems weird. Yeah, but he forget to change. I'm not quite sure how that would happen because the installer only has f cost images in it. But it's bare metal. So, I mean, it's a bare metal IPI. Exactly. I'm in a loss, but they were asking in the channel and I think it's the same person, but I can't be sure. Because I think slightly. That's me actually. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't really know what's happening other than I extract the bare metal IPI installer from the okd release that the previous one not really recent one. And. Yeah, then. Oh, I have an idea. Hey Christian, you still on. Yeah, I'm here. So, you know that other PR that I have out there about making the installer artifacts. Yes, I think I remember. So, when it when we're building the installer artifact, which is maybe the where this is coming from the okd tag doesn't get propagated down so me. Well, no, but that's only for that's only for. That doesn't make sense that because that's. I think it might make. I think it might make sense though because I think we do use different containers for the different release artifacts and you're trying to to pull the open ship bare metal install binary specifically and it's it's a command that like this I've actually never used it myself. I've only just pulled the open shift installer from it, but not bare metal install and I think you might be right that we aren't actually propagating the okd. environment tag environment variable into the other artifacts builds containers and just the main one. And I think that is the issue. Yeah, changing it in the Docker file might actually be might actually be sufficient here. Which is the PR you open. Yeah, right, right. That would be. Yeah, if you could put that into the meeting notes that would be great. And is it Eric thank you for bringing that to our attention. Very helpful to know. Yeah, because the bootstrap know that gets set up as a virtual machine on the provisioner thing that installed with fedora chorus but the fedora chorus. They're getting served read that chorus. Also, since I have you here. Do you know how I can modify the. Like send something in that would allow me to get serial output while I'm installing the bare metal nodes. That would be a good question for dusty and I think you might want to pass a kernel argument. Yeah, but I don't know how to get that from the manifest if I can do it by the manifest or how that gets passed into the ironic or however the. Yeah, that would be you can do it with a with a K are probably passed in for UPI. Or I don't know, tell you what, we will look it up and find out and we'll put it. Did you open a discussion item on this one on the site? Or did you just mention it? I saw your question in the channel, but can you open up a discussion item on the. Okay, D repo. And if you put that discussion item there, we'll respond to you with a response. We'll reach out to dusty. And also find out if this is something that that's doable for IPI or probably just UPI, but we'll check and see. Yeah, thanks so much for what it's worth on an IPI install. You can also break out the manifest and modify stuff. So if it is a matter of doing it from the manifest. There's probably a way you can do it with IPI. You know, if you need to. Okay. Okay, cool. If it's not in the manifest already you can do it via ignition and it should, at least for the second boot. Yeah, put into the actual real route than have that kernel hard to find. Which, which still is a bit special in okay because we first boot a standard Fedora core OS and then we pivot into our machine OS. So, yeah, your experience may vary here. I think but we'll definitely find that out. I think that's interesting. Christian, it sounds like this would just be a custom machine config right that did something different with the kernel. Yeah, you can, you can specify it through machine config, but that actually isn't. That's not a pure ignition. The MCO currently consumes it's an MCO API so the MC. Yeah, the machine config operator will consume that and then the MCD will apply it and reboot the machine so you don't get it from the from the get go like you would with native. There is there is a jure card for actually making use of the native ignition API to have that come up right away with the kernel hard to find. But it's not currently the case. Slightly more complicated than we expect. I put that pull in the chat. I'm not sure where you wanted it in the documentation. So, or in the minutes. And nothing's happened with it in quite a while. So, okay, let's hold on. All right, I'll just pop that there. All right. Well, thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. And we will do our best to get these addressed and get the information to you. Post haste and thanks to your patience while we figure this out to very good things to our sound. Much appreciated. And thanks for coming to the meeting too. It's nice to have some folks shown up here that isn't the usual crowd. All right, moving on to the survey. So I did have a chat discussion with 3 T. Right before last. She has had other things going on and it's going to send me a copy of the survey for folks that don't remember this was something we started working on last fall, but things got sidetracked. And so we're going to get a copy of that survey revamp it and then send it out to our users to get a sense of what they're doing. And then we're going to be using okay D and how they'd like us to what they might look for an okay D in the future and how the community can grow and change to meet their needs as a community open source community. Any questions or comments on that. Any feedback on that. All right. We did the project updates. We're pretty close to the end. We've got task items in there so that we remember all of our tasks that would be helpful. I'll try to put in a couple too, but if folks who put in task items that will help us remember all the things that we said that we were going to do here. And I was just going to double check with Christian Christian, I have both you and Vadim down for the coupon gathering, giving an update is that is the team still coming or is it just going to be you. I think Vadim is going to be there. Yeah. Okay, cool. Then we can take him to dinner. Oh yeah, absolutely. And send him to a spa. And Brian in this, I will, I do still owe you the Dublin and the London dates for those and if anybody else is in the UK area. I think July 6 and June 20 something to gatherings there that I'm looking for okay the collaborators with Brian to give the community update otherwise it's going to be me doing the song and dance with Brian. By the way, I'm looking at that installer. There are quick segue since we're running out of time. That is a that isn't a co since dollar. I don't see anything in it that references route or our RHS whatever everything in there is is all Fedora F costs. Let's give this a shot if someone else can can can test this and maybe we can get a couple folks testing it and then narrow this down. That would be awesome. So we need some bare metal testing. I might be able to throw it on a machine and test, but if anyone else can that be awesome. Yeah, I don't have any way of doing bare metal at this point. Nobody but there's all do bare metal. On the other side of this. I'll try to give a review on that installer PR John just for what it's worth are the installer team has been under like a lot of pressure. They have they have not necessarily had a lot of spare cycles just to look at pull requests, but I'll try. Yeah, and it was a minor one for me. I was like, you know, I just happened to notice that because going through burning had to do the build and I happen to see that it wasn't passing the tags through. Because I didn't know how to build an OKD installer, you know, till the dean put that information out. So just happened to notice that that wasn't being passed down. Not a huge deal. You got the important without. Right, right.  Excellent. All right, we've got a few minutes left. Is there anything else. That the folks would like us to talk about. Take a look at or anything else before we sign off. Excellent meeting. All right. A lot of good positives going for this meeting because the last couple of you know, we've had issues with releases and everything. So there's a lot of. Yeah, like today was today was good. We had a lot of good things going forward. Yeah. And I think we're a large part, I think due to Brian's documentation work, John, your work and Christian's work and everyone shipping and we're starting to understand the nature of the beast better. I think. We're actually like understanding O. K. D. and what's underneath this in terms of the build process in terms of the installer, et cetera. And I think that that's fundamental. Well, testing to I mean, looking at looking at the power results and digging into when they do the tests and seeing, you know, what in the world is proud doing and the results that they're getting. Digging to that is almost as bad as digging into a log into a log bundle. But it would a few times it gets easier to find out where that, you know, okay, this broken proud because of this. Oh, this is a known issue. We can ignore it or this is a new issue. That's, you know, let's investigate it more. Right. We should do a deep dive into the prowl artifacts. Yeah, sometimes. And I hope that with the with the change in build system that will will soon have with pulling it into prowl natively not shelling it out to service CI. This will be especially the compose or layering process will be even easier to to follow and debug and just take a look at in the easiest sense because yeah right now well and generally following those logs is and debugging them. Is is a hard task and takes a lot of time. Christian, who do you think is the best person if we were to have like a, like a session meeting dedicated just to exploring prowl. Who would be the best person to lead that. I think we have any any of your red hat employees here have have knowledge of most of them. I would say system and they would bring a piece to that meeting and the experience you look at different things for different components obviously and I don't want to like pull in a member from from the test platform team right now. Who isn't here who could probably explain it best. But yeah, because they are they also have a lot of things to do. Yeah, so we'll put it on your shoulders. There is a there is a actually have great documentation about the system and I think it's docs.ci.openshift.org. And I haven't checked right now but yeah that should be it and that is actually canonical documentation for that system and it's very helpful. I think instead of, you know, instead of trying to like look at the process to understand it like in abstract through like one presentation or a series of presentations more likely. I would say it's probably if we can come up with with tasks that we could do like a deep dive around that might be the most beneficial like so take something John just said, you know if we took the notion of like, I'm a community member and I'm putting a PR up. This is what I see happen. Right. How do I then investigate. What are these tests that failed which ones do I need to pay attention to. How do I find out where it failed how do I debug it you know maybe if we focused on it like that. We could probably easily record like an hour session where someone kind of leads it from the perspective of like, I've just put up a PR. And here's what happens next.  Yeah, for sure. And Christian would be great at like showing how to do all that stuff too. Oh yeah, in their time. Let's Christian and I can talk to some of the powers that be to and see if we can find someone between Christian and I, as opposed to just putting on Christian shoulders. So let me see what we can do with maybe to talk to Michelle creaky and others. And find some folks to help because I think training up the community on this is a huge benefit. So, let me see what I've got a couple calls coming up. I'll see if I can force them with some coaching to find somebody for us. Excellent. Thank you, Diane. All right, folks, I'm going to hit stop on the recording and thank you very much for attending the meeting. Thank you Eric and all of the other guests that contributed as well. And so next week at the same time is the documentation subgroup meeting. And then this meeting happens again in two weeks. Alright, thanks folks.


You are watching The Daily Decrypt. Welcome to currency competition, friend. I'm your host, Amanda, and today's episode is brought to you by BitJoy. Many of our viewers are curious to learn more about Dash. We've reached out to lead developer Evan Duffield, who has granted us this interview. Well, hello and welcome to The Daily Decrypt, Evan Duffield. How are you? Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. I imagine that you are back home recovering from your presentation at the Miami Bitcoin conference. Yeah, the conference went fantastic. We had conversations with two or 300 people. We were just busy all of the time. And you literally couldn't get into the conference room without, you know, passing a spy.  So we just attracted all of the attention. It was a lot of fun. So you staked out a good spot. That's neat to hear. And now at a Bitcoin conference, I would be interested to know, were there any other currencies other than Bitcoin, other than yourselves, their marketing as well, or were you the only ones? We were definitely the only one. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, we were looking around, looking for Ethereum or, you know, Faptum or any of the other ones. None of them were there. So would you mind providing us a brief introduction of Dash, but also why Dash was created? The Dash project is a fork of the Bitcoin project. As a fork of Bitcoin, we inherit all of the compatibility with their ecosystem. And it's really important because there's really nice SPV wallets, which are simple payment verification. It's all of the mobile devices that everyone uses. If you were to start a brand new cryptocurrency and you didn't fork it from Bitcoin, you would have to basically reimplement all of that work that's been done over the last years. So that's a definite advantage of being a fork of Bitcoin. The whole purpose behind the Dash project was that early on when Bitcoin was, you know, getting its roots and kind of figuring out what it wanted to be, Andreas Antonopoulos and a lot of the early proponents of Bitcoin were talking about more philosophical things. And this is when I got interested in it. They were talking about fungibility and what a payment network should be and what it shouldn't be. When the Bitcoin network made its decision to go in one direction, I saw a completely different direction that wasn't being explored at all. That's the direction of having a completely fungible coin where you can't trace people's history through it. This is important because we don't want people to be spied on on our network. Over time, let's say you have 10 million, 100 million users and even a trillion dollars of commerce happening, there's going to be giant companies mining this data and then they will sell it for profit to people, you know, like larger companies all around the world that are trying to figure out how to advertise to crypto people or governments that are trying to spy on people, things like that. And in a public ledger, it's a worse problem than it was, you know, with centralized companies. And so we have to either decide whether we want to be completely public and essentially everyone's checkbook is just out there on the internet and you can go through it and see everything that they bought. And that's the future that Bitcoin is going toward if it doesn't implement any type of anonymity or privacy enhancing software. So that was the original idea behind Dash. And then when when I started figuring how to do that, I was also thinking about, well, what else could you do? I noticed the full node count was crashing constantly over a period of years. And I related that to the bandwidth that was going through the network because it seemed like they were inversely correlated. And so I also was trying to think of economic solutions to that so that we could have full nodes being incentivized.  And I come from the background of thinking that altcoins were supposed to be test beds for innovation and development within the space. And eventually, if you show something works well enough and you prove an unproven model, then maybe it can make it into the Bitcoin project or maybe it starts a few other projects and spurs other innovation. And so that that's kind of why I invested myself into this to try to see what I could do and test some of these theories that I had. And that that's where the second tier came out of. The second tier is essentially a fully incentivized first tier. So the first tier is tier of undifferentiated full nodes in the Bitcoin network. The Bitcoin network doesn't really care which or it doesn't identify who's running which node. It makes no makes it doesn't really make any any differences between these different full nodes running all around the network. And on our second tier, you can actually identify it with collateral. And then that collateral is essentially how you get entered into a payment queue and paid every few days. And then that's how you're able to pay for the service that you're providing to the network. You can pay for your hosting. There's also profit incentives and and things like that. So that was the general idea there. And then based off of that, we implemented instantaneous transactions. Which allows you to confirm payments in one to four seconds on our network. Our instant transactions available on any of dashes mobile mobile wallets at this type. Yeah, I think they're actually available on all of them now. So we have an available on Android, iPhone, actually to Android wallets and one iPhone wallet. But I must have the Android wallet that I guess I haven't upgraded or or the one I got is not the one that offers instant X. So I'll have to look into that. Yeah, so we just did that actually right before this conference. So there's an update on the app store for that the hash engineering did, which is probably the one you're running. And there's a whole new wallet for Android as well that is pure instant X. So you could check that one out as well. All right. Besides that, the wallets will not let you receive instant X though. They'll let you receive it. They just can't tell it was instant X. OK. So we're working on that too. Because we want people to be able to do, you know, decentralize the commerce with us. Imagine face-to-face transactions where you walk into a store and buy a coffee mug from someone. Yeah. Things like that. It seems like a pretty reasonable goal to be a currency to be usable as a currency to replace current currencies. Yeah, exactly. And to compete with credit cards, we need that as well. Because credit cards authorize in a few seconds. If you're familiar with the way they work on the back end, they take days to settle. But, you know, no one thinks of that. They just know that you walk through and you swipe and then you just move on your way. Right. No one thinks of that except the merchant who's like, oh, another person paying with card? Like, I really wish they would pay with cash. Yeah. Well, and Dash is much more similar to cash in that way. If everybody started accepting Dash, they would receive the full payment. There's no charge backs. There's no percentage that's taken by the credit card company. And that, I think, empowers the merchants in a way that we hadn't seen before. Sponsored shout-out from the Dash guy, Jake, who digs currency competition as much as we do. So much so that he built the DailyDecrypt.com for us. Jake's prices are quite competitive for web design. And he works at an even steeper discount for Dash. You can see his portfolio, blog, and Dash-specific resource directory at theDashGuy.com. I today wanted to speak with you more about Dash Evolution and specifically its third tier. So Dash Evolution is this concept where we already have the first tier, and then we have the second tier built on top of that. And the second tier was designed originally for mostly just currency-related things. So we have fungibility built into it. We have instant transactions. And then they also provide the governance, the funding of the currency, and just the general direction and infrastructure for running such a large project. So now we need to figure out a way to incorporate users into this model and give them a place to live on in the ecosystem. And so I think the best way that I could think of of doing that was to have them hosted in the second tier itself. And so with these collateralized full nodes, you can actually shard the storage up. And then you can save user profiles, private data, and other things like that on the network itself. And this is just pure storage just for the network. This would never be sold to outside companies or anything like that. And basically, the prototype was a really simplistic version of this concept. So we had an Ethereum fork, and then we took that and integrated it with DAPI. And DAPI at this point is just another application. It's Python. It runs on the master node itself. And then it sends messages between the third tier and the dash D. And so that's pretty much all the prototype was. And it allowed you to log into the actual application using DAPI and then invite people and just see kind of how the flow would work differently than a normal cryptographic currency. And now by DAPI, you are referencing decentralized API, meaning the master node quorum that can be queried. Kind of. OK, so DAPI is the decentralized API. Like you said, it heavily relies on quorums. Quorums can actually be used for anything. So for example, say you want to get the Apple stack stock price, you could use a quorum, which is a random set of 10 master nodes of the total 3,500. And these 10 individually go out and get feeds from different services on the internet, getting stock prices. They come back together.  And so what the decentralized API does is they can only do actions on the network when they're group actions and they agree. And so it's just built completely on that premise. So yeah, it uses these decentralized quorums. They could also be thought of as decentralized oracles because they can pretty much do anything, but they have to do it together. So these master nodes acting as togetherness, together quorum groups, they would be querying centralized APIs, but as long as they all agree, then that's how they can come to an answer. Yeah, exactly. And since the selection of them is pseudo-deterministic, the randomly selected, and that's a really long way of saying, you take the proof of work and there's a lot of entropy in the proof of work. Although it's a really low number, if you look at any proof of work hash, you'll see all sorts of random digits at the end of it. We take that entropy and then we seed a random number generator and then we get 10 master nodes based off of that. And so those 10 master nodes, no one could have figured out which tenant would have been because it takes the entire network to compute that hash. So the master nodes are chosen by whatever the digits of entropy end up being generated by the proof of work per block. Yeah, precisely. And then every action is based off of that. So we inherit the security of proof of work, but then we can pretty much do anything we want. We can do anything a centralized service could do. So anytime you need to go out and you can't quite figure out a way to do something in a completely decentralized way, you could use decentralized oracles to fill the gap because these technologies are really hard to figure out how to implement these things. But when you have the second tier technology and you can get master nodes together and have them do these really simplistic actions that add a lot of value to the system, you can do all sorts of things you couldn't do before. All right, so how would a master node check the Apple stock price? Is this something that will come as just as a built in part of the master node node software or does that require user engagement? How do they check these things? I was thinking eventually maybe we could have a decentralized oracle implementation. So you would reach out to the network and say, I would like to do X or Y or Z and one of those could be checking stock prices. One of those could be creating an option on the network for a bet or pretty much anything that you could imagine. And then the master nodes themselves, they're just following what the programming language says to do. And so they would take the commands from the network and then they'd figure out if they were supposed to be involved in that specific action or not. And then generate the data needed and then return it to the user. All right, so this would basically be software based. It's something that the core version of Dash could tell master nodes to go and fetch these kinds of information. Yeah, exactly. OK, so then with this kind of functionality, are we talking, I mean, does this eventually lead to the ability for like smart contracts? Or what does this lead to? I think what you could do is, I don't think the Dash network should go into providing smart contracts directly. Instead, what we could do is provide decentralized oracle services for other smart contract vendors because there's no one else doing that and they all will have to rely on a centralized medium that they go to and then they get the data from and they have to trust that. But if you just relied on the Dash network as your oracle, then everything start to finish could be decentralized for all of these smart contract vendors. But it just shows the power of the second tier. Right, right. This is, you know, way, way far out from kind of where evolution is going. Yeah, let's go back then. Let's climb a little bit back out of the rabbit hole. Let's talk more evolution, Evan. Yeah, so evolution is just a way of making crypto a lot more friendly. And the thought process behind this is that, you know, a lot of the crypto need to be more friendly. Evan, you don't think strings of 24 digits that look like alien language? Tell us why crypto needs to be more friendly. Well, I like the alien language strings, but, you know, I think that most people wouldn't. And, you know, when I talk to my mom or my sister, people that kind of understand crypto, but they're not comfortable with it at all, they keep having to come back to me or they have to Google and try to figure out what's going on. And it's these types of little problems that we basically inherited from the complexity of crypto in general. And that's kind of what I want to get rid of. There's some other providers that are doing the same thing, other vendors that are getting rid of the complexity, but they're doing it in a centralized way, like Coinbase, for example. I would love if we could make something like the Coinbase system but completely decentralized where no one controlled it. That's the general premise. So Dash, if all goes as planned, will feel like PayPal, but will still be Dash. Yeah, precisely. The PayPal systems really need to because you can send to people by email. If they already have an account, they just log in, their money's right there. It's directly attached to a bank account, which is really neat. I don't think we can do that without being a money transmitter. So we'll have to work out a way around that as well. But just the general flexibility of the PayPal system, even though they're completely relying on centralization, is just super neat. All right, let's shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about will Darksend still be a part of the Dash client and protocol once evolution's user names are implemented? The Darksend protocol is going to receive a lot of attention over the next few months and be revamped a little bit to try to make it a lot quicker. Yeah, I missed it once and I struggled a bit. I will say that I struggled a bit and yeah, okay. Yeah, how long did it take you to mix coins? Okay, so I think it took like 24 hours to mix the coins and like I think it cost more than I thought it would. Yeah, so it's not actually supposed to cost that much money and 24 hours is about the average for mixing coins on the network currently, but that will improve over time. It's a lot faster when there's a lot of users. So even if we didn't do anything to the Darksend process in a year, two years, five years, it would be a lot faster than it is now but it would still be as expensive as it was for you. The other thing is that the reason that it takes so long is because the masternodes are aware of who is mixing on them and so we go through multiple masternodes. You can't follow the trail. You'd have to control every masternode that you made contact through throughout the entire process to follow the mixing and the solution to this is what we call masternode blinding where each masternode has no idea of which inputs belong to which users, right? Okay. And then all we need to do is one round of mixing at that point, which would make it, instead of taking 24 hours, would probably be at something like an hour. Okay. That would be much, much better. Instead of, it would also reduce the cost by 24 times because of all of these sessions happening and it would reduce the bloat on the network as well. So this is kind of the direction where we're going in. The way that we're gonna do it is we're gonna provide a web service where all you do is you reach out to a web service and you say, I would like to mix coins and then it does the mixing on your behalf and then it just asks you to sign whenever it's ready for a session to be mixed. So you could do that from a device like a phone or whatever. That, yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Could this be done from the phone? Yeah, yeah. So that's in the roadmap as well. And that's actually completely compatible with evolution. So we'll still have the same functionality as we have currently even on the cell phone. Now I have a question for you that was actually left by one of the Daily Decrypts viewers on our last video that had to do with Dash which was in that particular instance, how Dash's masternodes voted to up the block size cap over the course of 24 hours. And the question that was left in the comment section was basically, you know, like now that Dash is worth, you know, like probably double what it was when the masternode collateral amount was set at 1,000 Dash might that be reduced? This is a question I'm posing to you. Okay, so we've had this question numerous times. I bet. And there's two ways of thinking about this. One is the accessibility of buying a masternode. And from the investor perspective, I completely understand where they're coming from. They want a masternode because masternodes are neat and they would still like to provide services to the network but they can't afford, you know, the current, what is it, $4,000 or $5,000 right now. Yes. And that's one side of the argument. The other side over here is the infrastructure argument. We're aiming for a certain amount of full notes on the network to provide a level of service to essentially our customers, which are all of the users all around the world. And from this perspective, we targeted about 3,000. And so if we cut the collateral down in half, we would instantaneously start our way up to twice the amount of full notes. So it's great if you need more full notes. It's bad if you need more robust full notes, which let's say I wanna add 10 gigabytes of storage per full note. Yes. We probably couldn't do that if we cut the collateral down to 500. But we might be able to do that if the profitability of running these goes up to, you know, $100 a month or something like that because then we're gonna end up taking away from the profitability and providing a higher level of service to the customers. So in other words, it's kind of, it's in the model where we're airing toward the side of aiming at 3,000 full notes that will grow with the network as the network needs more services. So let's say we get to one megabyte blocks. At that point, we would probably have a market cap, you know, a lot higher, probably order of magnitude higher than it is now, which means the profitability of running these notes is at least an order of magnitude higher as well.  Well, at $300 a month, now we might be able to run fully dedicated hardware per master node, you know, and those could be dual core, quad core, three, four gigahertz machines. Then we have a really powerful infrastructure to rely on. And I think that's what we're going for. So the collateral is definitely not gonna get reduced until we have a need for more servers essentially because our each server is supporting too many users. So in this scenario, it is not more is inherently better, but rather as long as you've met your 3000 goal, the first focus is quality rather than quantity. Yeah, precisely. All right. Well, I think that covers what I wanted to talk to you about today. Is there anything that you would like to add? No, nothing off the top of my mind. All right. Well, thank you for your time, Evan, and I am sure we will talk again in the future. Yeah, thank you. All right, bye-bye. Bye. Today's episode is brought to you by BitJoy, the world's first platform dedicated to Bitcoin rewards and Bitcoin in-app purchases for both mobile and web. 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So, none of us have dealt with a global pandemic before. We don't necessarily know what to expect. We don't know how long it's going to last. There are some estimates that suggest this could last until spring of 2021. We're looking at 12 to 18 months for a vaccine. There's a lot of uncertainty, but, you know, the thing about the United States is that our citizens, Americans, we've been conditioned to basically handle all of these things on our own, because we live in a ruthless capitalist system. But what's interesting is that, you know, in times like this where there's this huge crisis, you have to take action. You have to do what's practical. And for those of us on the progressive left, we're often told that our human-centered solutions aren't practical. But at a time when there's a crisis and there's really no room for idealism, we just need solutions fast. It's interesting to me that everyone is suddenly sounding like Bernie Sanders. For example, you will have Democrats suggesting, hey, maybe we should have Medicare for All Single Payer now. That's what Ed Markey tweeted.  Now, of course, these tests should be free. They should be widely available, and they shouldn't just be free. If you have coronavirus, if you test positive for COVID-19, you shouldn't have to worry about your health care bill. And this is something that people realize, because, you know, the thing about this global pandemic is that this virus doesn't discriminate against people on the basis of their class, right? So if poor people get COVID-19, then rich people can get it as well. So it is in the interest of elites to make sure that poor people are taken care of. So what's interesting is that people who oftentimes speak out against socialism, speak out against big government intervention, all of a sudden they're realizing that maybe socialism is the more pragmatic, more practical thing. Maybe progressives do have the best approach. And you know, it's not like I'm trying to brag here that we were always right, but we were told for so long that our policy solutions were pie in the sky.  So it's really interesting. And I think that this global pandemic is causing people to really reflect and think about what their priorities are, what really is practical. And the practical measures are measures that the left has been suggesting. Now what's interesting is that even Mitt Romney is floating something that nobody would have expected him to float. Universal basic income. Now he did come up with a UBI for kids, it's like UBI light with Michael Bennett back in late 2019, but he's proposing UBI full stop to deal with coronavirus. So as Jordan Carney of The Hill reports, Senator Mitt Romney on Monday proposed giving $1,000 to every American adult as lawmakers scramble to try to bolster the U.S. economy amid growing concerns over the coronavirus. Romney outlined a handful of proposals on Monday saying that while the Senate should take up the House pass coronavirus package, Congress needs to start working on additional steps. We also urgently need to build on this legislation with additional action to help families and small businesses meet their short term financial obligations, ease the financial burden on students entering the workforce and protect health workers on the front lines and their patients by improving telehealth services. Romney said in a statement, the checks would go to every American adult to help ensure families and workers can meet their short term obligations and increase spending in the economy. Now what I say to this is, of course, this is something that we have to implement. People are missing work. And even if they have a job that tells them to stay home for purposes of social distancing, they may not get paid time off. So they're literally just like having to lose money and then struggle to pay their bills and they have no control over it. So what people are realizing because of COVID-19 is that we need a better safety net. Like we don't have anything in place. We don't have the readiness to deal with these types of crises, this global pandemic. And this is forcing people to stop thinking so much about ideology. I mean, I think about ideology, but this really is, it's forcing people to realize what is practical and what's practical is government intervention, right? Government intervention to help the American people.  But meanwhile, nobody is talking about what working Americans are going to do. I mean, think through this. If you are just a worker, you work at the grocery store. You're getting paid a minimum wage. You're getting exposed to all kinds of illnesses, not just COVID-19 potentially, but you don't get paid time off. You kind of have to be there because people need supplies and groceries.  If they don't go to work, people don't get their groceries. They need somebody there to bring them up to restock the shelves. They need people there. So why should these people who are doing crucial work suffer? We have to rebuild our society. We have to retool the way that things are done in this country because just the fact that we have to think through all of these things, we shouldn't have been thinking about what to do about workers who can't take time off. We should have already had a system in place for this. And I get that hindsight is 2020, but now is really the time going forward that as a country, we have to reckon with the fact that we have no social safety net for Americans. What we have isn't sufficient and it's being chipped away at again and again and again. And for all this talk of socialism and big government, even people like Tom Cotton are sounding a lot like Bernie Sanders during a global pandemic. Take a look at what he said on Fox News because he was asked about the next set or the next package for COVID-19 that Congress is looking at. And he says that even if the House passes the next COVID package, it doesn't seem likely that the Senate will pass it. Now, is it because Mitch McConnell is blocking it? You can argue about that and argue what their real reasoning is, but just listen to his reasoning as to why it's not going to pass the Senate. This is just, it's honestly unbelievable. The U.S. Senate scheduled to convene later today to consider passing the House passed coronavirus relief bill. So what can we expect from here? Arkansas GOP Senator Tom Cotton joins us. Senator, you've had a chance to look at what Treasury Secretary Mnuchin put together with the House and backed by the White House. Can you get behind it as it's read now? Good morning, Brian. I don't think the House bill is going to pass the Senate as it's written for one basic problem. It doesn't go far enough and it doesn't go fast enough. There are too many gaps in coverage for the smallest businesses and for medium-sized businesses. And I and a lot of other senators who I've spoken to over the weekend are worried that we're not doing enough to get cash into the hands of affected workers and families quickly. So we're going to be focused this week on how to do just that.  We're going to do everything we can to get cash into the hands of affected workers and families as quickly as possible so we can all get through this epidemic, this pandemic together. He literally sounds like Bernie Sanders there. Because look, the Republicans know that people aren't in the mood for politics and you shouldn't trust Republicans. I don't want you to take away from this video that all of a sudden Republicans are having a change of heart because every single thing that they do is that the behest of their donors, it is in the interest of their donors. So the only reason why they're really thinking deeply about helping people make no mistake about it is because it's in the interest of their donors. If people stay home and don't have money, who does that affect? You can't have a capitalist system if the working class has zero purchasing power and if that decreases even more, then that's going to impact all of the people, all of the large multinational corporations specifically who contribute to their campaigns. So they're realizing that they have to do something to help Americans because they don't have a choice. If you want this system to remain in place, you can't just let people suffer and lose money and struggle to pay the bills. You have to do something, they don't have a choice. And I understand that they're trying to put politics aside, but that is just political theater. I mean, in the last bill on Friday, Republicans tried to sneak abortion restrictions into the coronavirus bill, so they're still political. They still got an agenda, but one, they're trying to read the room and two, they're realizing that in times of crisis, you don't have a choice. You can't not look out for the American people because if people have nothing, if they can't go to work, if we can't buy the products made by capitalists, then the entire system implodes, it collapses, it can't survive, literally. So it's really interesting to me that during times like this, everyone sounds like Bernie Sanders. Everyone is realizing the necessity of taking care of the working class, tending to healthcare needs, realizing that working people, they're not robots, they can't just be worked to the death. They have to take time off and in times like this, where for example, the governor of Oregon has banned events with more than 25 people. I mean, you don't have a choice. If you work for a catering business, you can't work, you can't find work.   The system needs to at least look out at a minimum level for the lowest tier of the economic class in this country. So you just kind of see that now is the time when people are thinking more deeply about what actually is pragmatic. And ironically, what's pragmatic is what everyone told us is pie in the sky. But it shouldn't have taken a global pandemic. And when this is over, assuming it will be over in the near future, hopefully knock on wood, we have to go forward with this mindset all of the time. We can't just adopt a socialist outlook on life during times of crisis, during global pandemics, because understand, this may be the first of many global pandemics with climate change coming up, with new diseases that will be exposed to once the ice caps melt. So we've got to understand that we can't just have this obtuse view of the world to where we can only respond to the needs of the people during times of crisis. We'd be much more capable of dealing with crises if working class people were not just one emergency away of bankruptcy or falling victim to homelessness. And so our elites need to realize that, but also the people who vote need to realize that and acknowledge that politicians, they don't have their interests and they've been lied to. So I mean, when you vote, assuming that these primaries aren't canceled, I know a lot of them are getting pushed back to Ohio, there's talks of it getting pushed back and I'm not gonna report on that yet because things are changing as I record this, so I wanna wait until we know. But I mean, as you cast your vote, understand that Bernie Sanders has been saying that we need to do this throughout the course of his career, not just all of a sudden during a global crisis. So we have to going forward actually think more deeply about our capitalist system and what it does to working people and not just think about these things in times like this and I'll leave that there because there's nothing else to say. I mean, we were right about everything and it's proving us right and it's not like I'm giddy to be proven right about this. I would have preferred that we just had these policies in place to begin with, but now I truly like I want people to see and this is why I'm making this video. I want them to open their eyes and realize that we need the working class to be strong, emboldened and have a social safety net that can protect them in times like this.


Good morning and welcome to a lecture on Oscillators Part 1, hello I am Sachin Gengze, professor and head department of electronics engineering at Walchin Institute of Technology, Sholapur. The learning outcomes of this session includes after completing this session student will be able to explain working of phase shift oscillator which is a type of an RC oscillator and then the student will able to design a simple phase shift oscillator. What is an oscillator? The function of the oscillator is to generate alternating current or alternating voltage waveform. One can define oscillator as a circuit that generates repetitive waveforms which are of fixed amplitude and fixed frequency without any external input. So the oscillator circuit keep on generating a repetitive waveform, the frequency and amplitude of this waveform is already predecided. Now one can ask a question how a circuit can generate the output without any external input but definitely there is an input to the oscillator circuit and that input is in term of the DC power supply connected. As we already know the oscillators find applications in many electronic devices ranging from simple clock generator wherever we require to generate a clock in digital circuit we require oscillator to complex digital instrument like computers and the peripheral. Common examples of the signal generated by oscillator include the signal broadcast by the radio and television transmitter. We know in case of modulation we require a carrier signal and that carrier signal is generated by the oscillators. Clock signals and regular computers and clock clocks they are also generated by the oscillator and for producing sounds by electronic beepers and video games oscillators are also being used. What are the types of the oscillator? The oscillators can be classified based upon the type of components used in which we can find the oscillators can be designed using R and C or L and C that is inductor and capacitor or even a crystal can be used as the frequency deciding component in an oscillator. Depending upon the type of the frequency generated by the oscillator the oscillator can either be of low frequency or of audio frequency or of the radio frequency radio frequency oscillators they produce high frequency waveform ranging from 100 kilohertz up to certain gigahertz and then oscillators are not always generating only sinusoidal waveform but they can also generate they are waveform generators which can generate even square wave or there can be oscillator which are generating triangular wave or a sawtooth wave basically the oscillator they generate a repetitive waveforms of fixed amplitude and fixed frequency so it can be of any type it may be sinusoidal square triangular or a sawtooth. When we talk about the most popular type of the oscillators which are used for the audio frequencies those are the RC oscillator consisting of registers and capacitor. RC oscillator are mostly used to generate low frequencies for example in the range of audio. Common type of there are two common type of the RC oscillator the first one is called as the phase shift oscillator and the second one is called as the wind bridge oscillator. Now let us move ahead and understand one popular type of the RC oscillator called as the phase shift oscillator. So what is a phase shift oscillator? Phase shift oscillator is an electronic oscillator circuit that produces a sine wave or sinusoidal waveform output. How it can be designed? It consists of an inverting amplifier which is either can be designed using transistor or using op amp and then output of this amplifier is fed back to its input through a network which offers certain phase shift which is already we know how much phase shift is and then this phase shift network can be designed using resistor and capacitors. So basically phase shift oscillator consists of two parts one is an inverting if we talk about the phase shift oscillator using op amp then we can say that the phase shift oscillator consists of two part one op amp as an inverting amplifier and the output of the op amp is fed back. Now this feedback network which is there it's also adds some phase shift and then the total phase shift around the loop is of the 360 degree. So please look at the circuit diagram this circuit is for the phase shift oscillator which can be designed using operational amplifier. If you look at this there are two parts this is operational amplifier as an inverting amplifier because you can see that the non-inverting input is connected to the ground the feedback is there at the inverting terminal and then the another you can see that the output is again fed back through three stages of RC so RNC and then the total phase shift around the loop the total phase shift around the loop is of the 360 degree 180 degree of the phase shift is because of the inverting amplifier and remaining 180 degree of the phase shift is because of the 3 RC ladder network. So op amp is used as an inverting configuration provide the phase shift of 180 degree and the remaining 180 degree phase shift is produced by the 3 RC network hence the total phase shift around the loop is of the 360 degree. At some specific frequency when phase shift of the cascaded network is exactly 180 degree see the phase shift of inverting amplifier is fixed of 180 degree but by proper selecting values of RNC at a certain frequency the RC network offers a phase shift of 180 degree at this particular frequency if the gain of the amplifier is sufficiently large then the circuits start oscillating and then the frequency of oscillation of this particular circuit or this particular oscillator is given by F0 which is nothing but the frequency of oscillation equal to 1 upon 2 pi root 6 into RC. Now if I substitute the value of pi and then calculate for all these value I can get that F0 is equal to 0.065 divided by RC where please remember RNC are the values of the register and capacitor. The gain required for at this particular frequency at which the oscillation start is equal to 29 and as we know this is an inverting amplifier the gain of this is given by minus Rf by R1 but that minus we are already considered as a 180 degree phase shift so the gain of this amplifier must be equal to 29 so when one can say that Rf by R1 must be equal to 29 so as to start the rather to has the stable waveform at the output of the oscillator. Now with this I give you a question a very simple design design a phase shift oscillator for 200 hertz so we know we already know the circuit we know the various equations and then using this equation the oscillator can be designed. Let us go ahead and find out how this oscillator can be designed so coming again the same circuit is repeated over here we know the frequency of oscillation is F0 is equal to 0.065 divided by RC now I already know what I want to do I want to design a oscillator for frequency of 200 hertz so I can say that R is equal to point then I can rearrange the this equation R is equal to 0.065 divided by C into F0 now in this equation I know the value of F0 equal to 200 but there are two unknown one is called as R other one is called as the C this kind of problem is very typical in electronic design problems where you have more than one you have only one equation and maybe two unknown or three unknown variables to be found now this can be solved by assuming either the value of R or assuming value of C usually we assume the value of C because we have very limited choices available as far the C is concerned so let us let us assume the C available on our shelf is of 0.1 micro farad so let us assume C is equal to 0.1 micro farad now if I substitute into this the now into this equation R equal to 0.065 the value of C and F0 I can see that R is of 3.25 k now 3.25 k R is not usually available so what I can use is I can use register of 3.3 k now to prevent the loading of the amplifier because of the RC network it is required that this R1 this R1 should be equal to R it should be greater than R and we usually assume this R1 is 10 times of the R so we have already found the value of R 3.3 k so R will be R1 will be equal to 33 k lastly we know that for the sustained oscillation the gain of the circuit must be equal to 29 inverting amplifier so the gain is Rf by R1 so Rf is equal to 29 into R1 we have already found the value of R1 as a 33 k so Rf must be equal to 957 k so what we can do is we can use 1 mega potentiometer over here lastly if we are using 741 it is limited by the limited by the low sleeve rate so if we want to design a oscillator which of the higher frequency why must use the op amp which is having a higher sleeve rate like lm318 or lm351 so with that we come to the end of this session in which we have discussed a design of the phase shift oscillator the reference for this session is op amp and linear integrated circuit by Ramakan Gaikwad thank you very much for attending the lecture and see you for the next lecture thank you