Our next presentation is Paul Clarkin talking to AI for Data Division Equatic Species Identification. Welcome again Paul. Hi everybody, my name is Paul Clarkin and I'm a PhD student at the Virginia Institute of Marine Science. I did my master's in shark taxonomy and I've actually run some workshops for FAO on shark identification. So today I wanna talk about why I think AI could be the future for shark identification taxonomy and fisheries management. Sharks are poorly managed and that's mostly because they are so poorly known. Half of all shark species are data deficient and this is because some of these species are very rare and also because they're hard to tell apart so it's hard to get a lot of information if we can't figure out what species they are. Sharks are currently being discovered at a rate that exceeds any previous time in history even faster than the beginning of the Linnaeus naming system and as a result taxonomy and being able to identify sharks is more important than ever before. However, the way that we identify sharks is mostly based on traditional taxonomy, the same thing that Linnaeus was using and this requires an expert in the field that there is some literature that people can read on how these sharks look to identify them but it's very dense. The training guides are often a little bit verbose and hard for people to use in the field especially if they're at sea and because of this there's a lot of misidentification and this can actually be very harmful to life history estimates because if you have different species all mixed up and you have different estimates of how old they get and how much offspring they have this can really mess up our understanding of their life histories and make policymakers make the incorrect decisions to protect these species. So I'm gonna do a quick overview of kind of an example of a group of sharks, the ghost sharks and how complicated the taxonomy can be. Carl Linnaeus actually named the first ghost shark in 1758 and his description was highly qualitative. He mostly talked about the conical shaped snout, the large spine, the large eye, the tapering body and this worked for his description because it was the only species known for that group. But this was kind of like describing the first bat. A bat is pretty different from a mouse, it's pretty different from a turtle but they're not different from a lot of other bats. So in the mid 1700s it worked and then about almost 100 years later another one was described but you can see that a lot more species were described and now we have over 50 and they're pretty hard to tell apart. Color is not really a reliable character for this group and so a lot of the time you're trying to describe the relative shapes of the fins or the body. Dominique Didier in 2002 published what has been kind of the standard way for measuring these ghost sharks with a series of measurements and I actually was lucky enough to work with her and I was surprised that she said a lot of these measurements don't do anything. They take them, they're what's being used but they're not very descriptive and the way that she tells them apart are largely on qualitative things like stockiness of the body or how skinny the tail looks. So I actually worked with her to come up with a series of measurements that would better describe ghost sharks and be able to discern between species. So we came up with nearly 100 measurements and I took them for about a little bit over 100 specimens and you can see that they actually could tell the species apart pretty well. We could look at the individual measurements and how well they define the species so you can see there is some overlap but more or less they fall out separately and then what we wound up doing is we ran an analysis to see how much each measurement contributed to a species being dissimilar to other species and we were able to rank them for the most important characters to the least important characters. So I think this was a great study. It was a first attempt to quantify the efficacy of measurements for defining species and it's useful but it's mostly useful in the lab. It's hard to take a bunch of measurements at sea on a moving boat and it also kind of requires an expert. You have to be familiar with what the measurements are and how to take them. Plus there's still a kind of the aspect of just having an eye for it. There's certain qualitative things like the curve of the spine, the waves of the fin and that would require actually taking measurements of the angles and that's just not happening at sea. So while I think this is a good step I think artificial intelligence could be the next step for being better able at defining these species. So I think a lot of us are familiar with Google's on supervised training of artificial intelligence to identify cats.  They dumped that in the training program and they were able to create a neural network that could identify cats or not cats. In this case, a cat or a dog. And I think we should start trying to do that with sharks. So we could do a cat shark or not cat shark like this dogfish. So the reason why this could be a little bit hard is you need a very large data set. You need lots and lots of pictures but we are working with the fishers and we have access to a large volume of pictures that they've been taking for a while and they're volunteering to continue taking for us. We'll have the ability to identify these sharks. I've been working in this area for a long time and we have the advantage of not only having the photographs but having taxonomic description and we're gonna have a genetic barcode for each one of these. So we're gonna have tissue that we're gonna run the genetics for and keep a physical specimen in a museum collection. And with this it will help us better identify these sharks. I've worked for the UN in identification workshops and there's a lot of information at once. Some of the catalogs and identification books are a little bit dense. And so I'm hoping with this we can back generate some better distinguishing characters and make it easier for people to use in the field. I think it will complement workshops and guides and help people better able to identify these sharks. We can do it from a photograph being sent in from the field and hopefully down the line we're gonna make it so you could actually use it in the field. And I think this better identification will lead to better data coming from non-experts and that will lead to better life history information, a more reliable estimate of how old they get, how big they get and what kind of human fishing pressure they can withstand and that will lead to better management. Right now we are in the very beginning steps of this. We are still working with the fishers. We're acquiring the photographs and I am very happy to talk to you if you have any questions or you're interested in collaborating. Thank you very much, Paul. My question to you is a little bit coming from the experience we've had over the last few days and working from those keys and books towards systems which might be a bit more intuitive. You probably heard of eye shark fin which again try to triangulate across different sections of a shark to understand it's fin. And I'm wondering if there is an opportunity to not just take the pictures that you're looking for and get the DNA barcode but also take macro shots of different parts of the shark. So we've been hearing today about how adding tail and head shape to a recognition software is allowing sharks to be more quickly called down, sorry, tuners, more quickly called down to which species they are even though the video recognizes that it's a tuner very quickly. And I just wonder how much experience or what type of crossover you're getting from other people's experience which might allow you to, for example just taking pictures of an eye or just taking pictures of a tail along with the other types of pictures you take of the whole shark. And see how potentially these allow you to get to where we wanna get to more quickly. Thanks. Yeah, that's a good point. And there are parts of sharks that are important for telling a part of the species but that's often like in the groups. It's kind of when you identify sharks you kind of go through kind of like the key if it has this fin or that spine you separated. And in some groups towards the back of the tail there's a mark that is helpful or in some groups it's the angle of the arch of the mouth. And so it would be probably useful to have in combination with the classic full lateral some other images. And that would probably mostly be group specific whether it's a guided by an app or if you just take a suite of photographs and we're able to use those. But there are definitely some weird things like that. I've noticed when the sharks are still in the net you can see through the mesh and I'll know what species it is by looking at a piece of the snout. But I'm like that's really not very descriptive but I think being exposed to a lot of them you wind up noticing that kind of thing which AI could definitely pick up on. Yeah, I'm just seeing this from the perspective of deep water sharks because we just don't get the numbers on deck so maybe we need multiple shots to help us to core down. Max, can you give us some any questions to add to this? Yeah, I'm really fascinated by this progression of species identification from traditional measurements through to AI looking at a biometric data there. And it's kind of interesting because AI can kind of discover traits which might not be which a taxonomist might not use. It might discover some characteristics. I was wondering if you'd explored looking at point cloud data from multiple images because the actual geometric curves around the surface between key points for example might be good indicators which might provide more information and how do you consider using point cloud data for example from the photographic view? I haven't but that's a fantastic idea. I've thought about trying to do like a kind of cheap 3D scan with a bunch of pictures that you stitch together but point clouds would be interesting especially if you can label them as points that can be easily re-identified at the beginning of the spine or something like that and then have all the measurements to identify what actually contributes to them being discernible. That's a good idea. I haven't thought about that but something to consider. Got another quick question from Anton. Yes, a really quick one. So how do you deal with gravity? Because a fish in the water looks very different from a fish on a taxonomist table, no? Oh, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think it would mostly be a tool to be used on the deck, by an observer for the fish that are coming up. So that, I mean, I think there's a lot of sharks that are getting caught out there and we're not getting the data back because they can't identify it and even if they take data, sex length, maturity location, that data is useless if you don't know what species it is and it's even less useful if it's a mix of different species. So if we can start using it as a tool for factory workers or observers to be able to tell what species it is and collect those data points, that's fantastic. The idea of identifying it in the water would be, I mean, would be fantastic and think about how many deep sea surveys we could accomplish with much less funding. But yeah, that's probably another hurdle to overcome a fish swimming away into the darkness as opposed to on the taxonomous table. Matt, that's your camera. Just a quick question from Anthony. He had his hand up, so I'll just check them into the mix. Thanks, I appreciate that. Just a couple of comments and a question.  So you can, it works directly for that problem. So you can see how well the existing deep learning classification methods in the Yami work for your sharks. People have used Yami to distinguish now between hundreds of different fish species. And it's easier and harder, as you know, just from your own taxonomy work. Some species are really hard to tell apart for a human and some are really easy. And that's true for the algorithms. So you might just try it and see which species are hard to distinguish from others and which are not. Deep learning, as Matt mentioned, will automatically learn the features that it's using to distinguish them. There's nothing in the Yami right now which will tell you whether the algorithm is paying attention to an eye or a fin or some part of the animal. But we're adding those features. That's called explainable AI. And it would actually tell you which part of the animal is used in the classification decision. Those capabilities exist in general, but not yet in the Yami. So something to look forward to. And the last part about having only a few instances, a few images for a given species, that's a really hard problem. So when you have very few, like just five or six images of this one species and being able to recognize that one, that probably won't work well in the Yami. That requires methods for these few labels problem, which is still more of a research problem. So those are always going to be harder still. Okay, we'll say, I wrote down, I'm very excited to learn more about the Yami. I have a little note over here. But yeah, that's very exciting. Thank you very much for that presentation Paul. And thank you for throwing explainable AI into the mix, which takes away the black box story and allows us really to start exploring.


Okay, in this video, we are going to set up readiness and liveness probes for Kubernetes. So basically when a pod is up, Kubernetes has the ability to be configured to see if the service is ready. So there's a certain amount of time that you need for startup to initialize the service. Arguably Java can be a little bit longer in some cases. Also we have liveness to make sure that the service has not hung up. And in Spring Boot 2.3, they added endpoints to Spring Boot Actuator to support this. So to enable it, first of all, if we need to be on Spring Boot 2.3 or higher, in the services that we're using right now, they are on Spring 2.4, if I remember correctly. So we are definitely ahead of 2.3. That's been out for over a year at this point. Here we just need to enable it. So you can see on line 35, I'm setting a system property management endpoint health probes enabled. So this is setting those up to be enabled. And then specifically we are doing the readiness state enabled and the liveness state enabled. So this takes care of the Spring Boot configuration. Now what we need to do is actually set up Kubernetes to actually look at those. To do that, what we want to do is I'm going to come in here. And this is in the container definition. So make sure that we are, yeah, it can be a little tricky. So that's why I like using IntelliJ here. I can see exactly where I'm at. So I'm still in the image definition. And here what I can do is define the readiness probe. And that's kind of a weird looking word to me. So we do readiness probe. And here we are going to do HTTP get colon. And this is going to be running, this is the inventory service. So this is going to be on port. I double check this 8082. And we want to say path. It's going to be actuator. So it's be actuator health readiness. So that takes care of the readiness probe. So just to reiterate, there's two components to this. So one is the readiness state enabled. That sets up Spring Boot to be enabled. And then this clause here in the YAML readiness probe, the HTTP get, that is telling Kubernetes do an HTTP get to port 8082 to the path of actuator health readiness. And then we also need to set up the liveness. So liveness. And again, this is going to be an HTTP get. And as you can guess, this is probably going to go actuator health. And that's going to be live. And again, that's going to be port 8082. So that configures that piece there. And what we want to do is we want to apply these to all the services to save you from watching me do a bunch of typing. I'm going to pause. And I'm going to edit the other files and then come back and do a code review. So what I've done is I've gone in and modified the other deployments, both for the inventory service and the order service to enable those. We could optionally do a failover. I'm not going to bother setting up failover. It's pretty simplistic. If you want to, you can go ahead and do that. But more interested in having these run properly, the three core microservices. The failover service is like a really, really simple Spring Boot microservice. So now the last thing that we need to do is actually reapply these. So what we can do is come back over to the command line. Let's do clear inventory deployment, peer service deployment. And then we also need to do the order service deployment. And here, you can see here, if we keep refreshing this, we can see here we have an order service creating. So because I did the apply action, what's happening is that Kubernetes is shutting down the old pod, the old container, and bringing up a new one with a new configuration. And if I come in and do a get all again, we can see that now we are running. Actually, we're still going through re-initializing them. So that's going to take a couple seconds to settle down. But once the services do re-initialize and start back up, Kubernetes will be happy and everything will be working again. So let's come back over to IntelliJ, just as a quick recap of what we changed. Let's do the inventory. So we added in three new environment properties to enable the readiness and liveliness end points in a Spring Boot actuator context. And then also, we set up the readiness and liveliness probes to go ahead and do those. And I just realized I made one mistake here. So beer service, that is on 8080, the beer service deployment. That should be 8080. And that could be why that was restarting as well. And order service is running on 8081. We want that running on 8081, like so. And let's come back over to the command line. And we want to do the order as well. Remember, whenever we make a change to the deployment, we do need to reapply that. And then we'll tell Kubernetes go ahead and redeploy that. So again, take a minute for that to come up. But that is how we set up the readiness and liveliness probes inside of Kubernetes using Spring Boot actuator.


Instead of nudging people what if we just pay them to do the right thing? Is that better or worse? It depends on the cost of decisions and cost of errors, so You could if you want to encourage people to save more. There's first a question whether that's a good idea But let's see if it is just paying more. Yeah in Denmark economic incentives have had significantly less effect in promoting savings than automatic enrollment There's every reason to believe that in the an area that isn't you know hugely important But isn't trivial that is paper usage if you have a double-sided default for printing an Institution will save much more money than if it jacks up than if the jet price of paper is jacked up So often a little nudge changing the default rule giving some people some information Will have a very significant effect on behavior more so than tax incentives or other economic incentives and That's good by the way Partly because on the cost side it's much less You're not sticking the taxpayers with anything on the other hand. There are some domains where incentives have a bigger effect We have evidence that Taxes for cigarettes have a big impact in reducing smoking. I think presumptively that's a very good idea 480,000 Americans die every year if we can cut that number. That's a good thing Whereas the warnings we now have on cigarettes seem to be less effective than Increasing the incentive lot to smoke


Going on everyone Sam here with late in sports cards. We're in three boxes of Sports card Almanac multi-sport personal box edition volume five for Emily T. So good luck Emily see what we got We've got box number eight the Lamar box We've got box 21 And box 32 So we'll start with start with eight. All right. Here we go. Oh, that looks like dynasty That looks like dynasty George Springer Five of five game use patch out of 2022 tops dynasty. Hell yeah That is a Connecticut legend George Springer. That's really nice. That is really nice. It's a two-color looks like a blue jays patch So that is sweet five of five low number dynasty Never go wrong with some tops dynasty baseball such a gorgeous product very nice. Congrats on that Emily. That is sweet 21 now, so that was box number eight eight is off the board 21 Made it to another sport.  That is so freaking cool. Yeah, it's just straight up Oregon State logo 24 of 25 Wow, man the glove and the mitten That's so freaking awesome.  That that is That is one of my favorites we've pulled tonight so far dude, that's so freaking awesome 32 car box number 32 other PSA slab It's our guy for Sean again Jalen waddle PSA 9 autograph 10 red Numbered 63 of 75 congrats on that Emily. That is sweet 2021 Don Russ optic football Jalen waddle. Shady's gonna lose his mind on that one. Let's go, baby No dolphins so sick. Wow dolphins very dolphin heavy. Oh, of course. Why wouldn't it be very nice? They're the best Yes PSA 9 autograph 10 so cool So much fun. Thanks again Emily appreciate it really awesome cards there. We'll get him right out to my friend


Hey guys, it's Nate, A.K. The Foot Account, and welcome back to the channel. We have to talk about the major SBC that we were expecting, and that did come yesterday inside of FIFA 21, and that is the Renato Sanchez Foot Birthday SBC card. Now, I wanna talk about this, and also, what it did to the market, because it crashed this entire market once again. Again, this whole promo of good value, juiced up, meta player SBCs just continues to go on. This Renato Sanchez today was an SBC we've been expecting for the past few days. I wanna talk about what this did to the market, because honestly, your boy's losing some coins right now because I took a risk earlier yesterday on Saturday, buying some cards, hoping that the SBC would be overpriced, and that did not happen. And I should have probably just held my coins because I was gonna be busy today and not be able to be on the market that much anyway. But I took the risk, and it's not working out. So I'm taking some Ls. I know a lot of you guys are taking some Ls, too, and we'll talk about that in this video, as well as what could be coming today as the Foot 18 SBC. But let's take a look at this absolute beast, because I know a ton of you guys are doing this SBC. I know a lot of you guys are doing them. You're planning to do them. There's 81 plus player picks that expire today at 6 p.m. until those go away, which they'll probably get replaced with something else, but it probably will be that 81 double upgrade pack, not the player pick, which is not as OP as the player pick. But a lot of people are crafting this right now, and they're buying fodder players. They're doing what they have to. Fodder was so invested in for this SBC, and it still went up. That's how crazy of a demand this SBC has. But of course, this is the card. You know, I'll be completely honest. I was hoping they would have made this an 88 or an 89 rated card, but I think they saw the stats when they gave them a plus three, and they're like, man, if we give them anything else, it's gonna break the game. But 88 pays 90 physical, 90 dribbling. This card looks absolutely nuts. They gave them the five star weak foot instead of the five star skills, which I think some people were wanting. But 700K is what this card is coming in at, and it's out for like two and a half weeks, or almost three weeks. This card is out for a long time. So you're gonna be able, it's out for 20 days. You're gonna be able to craft this over time if you do want to get it in the squad. And to me, just from an iconic SBC in FIFA 21, this is probably an SBC that I will complete at some point during this three week period that it's out, just because it is purely iconic. This is gonna be one of the most metacards we remember from FIFA 21 for sure, and he got a crazy five star weak foot and a crazy boost for this SBC during his birthday.  I wanna know down below in the comments, number one, if you're doing this SBC, and number two, how you're gonna link him in your team? Because I wanna hear what you guys are saying about how you're gonna link him in your team, because I'm gonna be looking at a lot of icons, because we saw those go up today with all the SBCs that have come out recently. I think the icons are an interesting look going forward. But I wanna talk about Foot Birthday Team 2, those prices that dropped a little bit today, and the prices that got destroyed overall in this market, because midfielders and the whole market in general is just down bad again. It was a market crash for sure, because again, people are focused on this SBC. So from that road to the final, we got plus three pays, plus four shooting, plus three passing. So plus three and four is all around. And a 280K, this was actually down in the 250s, I think, in the panic selling, and it's bounced back up a little bit for people who are just buying this card instead of doing this SBC. But a lot of people are doing this SBC, and that was evident. Again, the fact that we saw fodder go up today, take a look at some of these 89s. I think these are the ones that had the biggest percentage point rise, in my opinion. Today, of course, some of these 86s have gone from like 26K to about 30,000 coins. Some of the 87 rated cards have gone from like mid 30s to 40. The 88s have gone from mid 40s to 50. And the 89s have gone from like 58, 59,000 coins all the way up to like high 60s. So decent return there. The 90s didn't move too much. But the reason why the market crashed so much today is because this SBC was at a price point where it was doable for so many people, especially with the player picks that came out. We talked about it yesterday. I said, if EA makes this SBC somewhat good value, you're gonna see people go and hammer the player picks. They're gonna sell their stuff, and they're gonna do this SBC, right? They made this 700,000 coins or so. Only 85, 86, and 87 rated squads for the Bernato Sanchez card, which is very doable for a lot of people. And that's why I think you're seeing so much stuff get absolutely destroyed on the market today. And they only required one inform. So I really don't know if informs went up that much. I had to check. But all my fodder, I've got some fodder on the transverse right now. If I'm not using that to help me complete Bernato Sanchez, I'm gonna be holding on to it. Cause I still think there's more SBCs to come that could continue to make fodder go up. And we're kind of done with the supply. We might have some more lightning rounds today, but with that SBC being out, that has got demand on the rise for fodder. And I only see more SBCs coming out to make that stuff continue to go up as we do have another foot birthday SBC coming today. But let's talk about what absolutely got destroyed today. Now, pre six PM content, I was looking at some team of the year cards. I was not planning on buying anything yesterday. I was not looking at buying anything because I was worried about post six PM. No matter what the price of the card was, I felt like people were gonna go out and still try to craft the SBC. And that is exactly what is happening. I bought Nafonso Davies at 1.28. He's still at 1.3 mil. And my biggest L on the day, I took a risk on a baby Vieira. I bought a baby Vieira for 1.3 mil, which is still down so much from where that card has been. He's down to 1.2 mil now. So I'm gonna lose some coins. I did make some coins in Usman Dabili today. He is bouncing back at the moment, 730,000 coins. I got one at 680. So small profit there. I probably try to get him out at like 737.40 tonight because in my opinion, I think today on Sunday, we've seen a lot of panic selling already. And a lot of these cards are down, especially the midfielders. But I think it continues to drop. Now let's take a look at some of the cards that have gone down. Tiago was 500,000 coins. He is now 403. Huge drop there. You know, you look through a lot of these special teams. How much is De Bruyne? De Bruyne is 605. So he's still kind of in that same range. Now of course, Conte is an interesting one because Conte got destroyed today because Chelsea did not get their third win in a row. But you look at some of these other prices. Right, Berticce is 168. He was just 200,000 coins over the weekend. Gomez is 464. That's down 100,000 coins right there. And if we take a look across the game, just some of these midfielders that have gotten destroyed, it's crazy, right? Reese James is already down. Newhouse who was 200K, down to 150. Some of the other defensive midfielders, Kamavinga, 1.17. He is down a bunch, especially some of the icons, right? Like the Zidane. I'm trying to think of some other cards. How much is Bruno? Bruno is back up to 3.05. De Bruyne is 1.18. Kimmich dropped 200,000 coins today. Alone this guy was 1.6 this morning. I mean, Trent Alexander-Arnold's down a bunch. So the stuff that is down the most and it's gonna be the hardest to rebound are these midfielders. I mean, take a look at Goretzka. 540 for this guy who was just 680K a couple days ago. Down bad. Again, because right now what's getting pumped up and what's getting pushed are these League 1 links. Ben Yetter is back up. He was down and he rebounded back up. Some of it, like the Bomba is still up in price, 3.34. And then some of the other League 1 cards have bounced up a little bit. Frismani is 1.3. That is down a ton, right? Lautaro was over 300, he's now 247. You've got big drops everywhere else.  Like where's Mid-Hullet? Now this card might have bounced back because he's Mid-Hullet, but wow, this card is still down at 4 million coins. So this card is still down, right? A lot of this stuff is not going to bounce back very fast, especially your defensive midfielders. Your very meta and expensive defensive midfielders are going to stay low in price because this SBC is just taking so many resources off of the market. Now, you know, for other stuff today, how do I feel that this market is going to continue going over the next couple of days? That focus is still on that Renato SBC for the next day or two. I honestly do think that you're going to continue to see some prices. The cards that are in packs right now, of course, they have a lot of hype. Football 18-2, you're going to see those fluctuate around a decent amount. Like it's not much rare, it was up to 1.8 mil. Right now he's down in the 1.6s. So I'm getting kind of interested in this, I'll be honest, because this could have some potential bounce back maybe into the high 1.7s, just because he is so rare and has so much hype. So maybe if I get some coins back tonight, we might try to do a flip or two on one of these into Sunday. But again, there's so much hype on that Renato Sanchez SBC that I think people are going to be using their last chance at the player picks and their last chance to grind upgrade packs throughout this next week of Football 18-2 to try to get that SBC completed and that's going to be the focus. So if you are going to try to pick up on some cards that could rise, because I do think once the focus kind of shifts away after this weekend, after today, you're going to start to see some stuff rebound back. And the stuff that you're going to see rebound back the most is going to be, I think, your link investments to those popular players that came out during this promo and icons, right? Now, this icon Luis Figo today is one that I was watching. He was 320K pre-content shop. I should have bought this instead of my Vieira, right? He went all the way up to 390,000 coins and then he's been chilling there. And right now he's back down to 352 and he's, you know, a couple of undercuts there. What I would be doing is watch out for those Portuguese icons. Maybe Eusebio is a bit more expensive, but you know, watch out for Luis Figo. He's a pretty usable one and just all icons in general. I know a lot of these midfielder icons have dropped a lot, but maybe you're Desailles, you're Blanc. Cards like that in the outside edge of the midfield. You know, look, this is Don Card. What did he do today? He was down low, I know, heading into the content. He went to 156 and he's rebounded a little bit. He's actually still 159, so not too much. But you know, maybe like we were looking at Laam and Cole, the English links with the new cards that are in foot birthday too are very hyped and you still have your Bundesliga links from the Royce and from all of the Ozil and the Dulce that people are doing right now too. So keep an eye on some of those links that are still meta from this team of foot birthday cards and from the SBCs that we have seen in the past week or so because people are still putting those cards into their teams and using them and trying to link them. That's the kind of stuff that I would see rebound first. Like honestly, I'm still kind of looking at this Gunter card from Team 2, 127,000 coins for that left-back card. A lot of strong links are gonna be very, very important. So strong links to the cards that are hyped, that are new, that have come out. Even some of your Lautaro, like your Lautaro and Martinez investments because they linked to, they linked to the big man, Vidal, when he came out. Like this guy was what we just saw down at like 240,000 coins. You know, there's still people that are gonna have to link Vidal, right? They might run Vidal and Sierra on one side and you can see this card is very rare. So I do think you will see a rebound back on some areas of the market, but I'm really gonna watch icons because that helps people link those cards together in their teams and also some of those really meta strong links to the other foot birthday cards that we have seen dropped that people are using right now. French links, especially English and German. So that's kind of how I feel like it's gonna be going over the next couple of days. Now I'm probably gonna take the Ls on my cards and if you guys lost coins today, I just wanna give you a little bit of a pep talk, right? This happens sometimes where the thinking behind the thought process is good, but then all of a sudden something happens and your investment falls through. Like I got this at one, two, eight, five today. I was really hoping that the Renato would be a bit overpriced and then he would bounce back up. Now some of this stuff is going to bounce back up.  So it kind of comes down to a point where, hey, do I wanna take my coins on this right now? Take the loss and try to make those coins back before those cards could rebound back up. You have to kind of look at how efficient you are on the market and how much time you have to trade and stuff like that. So this Viera for the one for me is gonna be the biggest pill, the hardest pill to swallow today just because this guy dropped down so much. Maybe try to get a sale at like 1.2 mil. Take my 100 and what is that, 160K loss and move on. 160K loss basically will be back even for where we were before the weekend when I made a bunch of coins on the full birthday team. Two cards, but again, stuff like this is gonna happen and it's really, really easy to get frustrated with it. It's really easy to get frustrated and say, man, I was really hoping to make coins here and I would just again wanna encourage you guys to not quit. It's so easy to quit and to kind of like think about giving up and think about, yeah, I did not make coins on this trade. So I'm gonna give up. I really, really encourage you guys not to do that and to try to see the positives in it and say, hey, I'm gonna bounce back from this. This loss right here, these two cards that I'm about to lose on are gonna give me motivation to continue to make coins this next week because again, there's gonna be ways to make coins this next week with cards bouncing back with link investments. We still have more SBCs that are coming out. We have a new one today on Sunday. We have to talk about that in a second. So again, try to turn it and flip that negative to a positive because that for me is a way that I found the best way because sometimes if you get in that kind of depressed, just sad state, man, I'm losing coins, I suck at trading, you don't, all right? It's just kind of a mindset thing, right? It's a mental thing where if you kind of just put that in the past, forget about it and say, hey, you know what? This is what it is. We're gonna move forward from it. That's a huge mental barrier that you can get through that. It'll help you big time with positivity and moving forward after that experience. So I just kind of wanted to share that because I was getting kind of upset tonight. And I was like, man, I really wanted to make coins on those cards. I thought the bounce back was gonna be there because, you know, all of the pieces connected. It was just, I relied on EA to do something that I thought they were gonna do which was make Renato Sanchez overpriced. They did not and I'm paying the price for it, right? Again, don't rely on EA. That's one of the rules we talk about and sell into the hype and I did not do that. So the fault is on me for sure. Anyways, that's my talk about that. But I do think you will start to see some of the stuff rebound back on the market. Now, there's still people trying out full birthday cards too, right? Team 2 will full birthday. I think we're gonna have more lightning rounds today. They ran lightning rounds last weekend and they know that these cards are very, very high. So we're gonna have to watch these prices because I do believe from Sunday night of last week into Monday, there were a few of them that rebounded after squad battle rewards late in the nighttime UK, Sane especially. So this week I'd be watching like Adama, Awar, Sterling, Kent and Atal if he becomes un-extinct. Those are the cards that I would watch out for because those are the most hyped as a part of this team 2 promo. Watching these guys move around in price. Now I wanna talk about this center-back foot 18 SPC right here. Supposedly, this is supposed to be Eric Bayi today. Now you've already seen some of the Manchester United links start to rise but of course, depending on how cracked this card looks, you might see Panic selling on a guy like Tamori, just center-backs and packs. I'm really interested to see what this SPC is today.  And of course that Netherlands foot 20 SPC. We were thinking foot 20 was gonna be Ben Jeter but it's looking like right now the world on the street is, it's gonna be St. Giuste, the center-back from the Bundesliga Mines I think he plays for. And he had the, was it scream card last year in FIFA 20 that was cracked. So I think that is where that SPC could be coming from. We'll see when that day does come. But it's looking like it's gonna be Eric Bayi, Condogbia and possibly St. Giuste. So especially Eric Bayi today, watch those GGMU links. Left-back Shaw is already starting to rise back up. Watch your Bruno Fernandez and stuff like that. Those could be cards that maybe rise up a little bit as a link investment to Eric Bayi if he is cracked out. But I wanna make one final comparison with this Renato Sanchez SPC because if you guys remember, a FIFA SPC of old. The vibes that I'm getting with this specific SPC, this is probably gonna be one of the most insane and remembered SPCs inside of FIFA 21 for the entire year. And it is affecting the entire market of midfielders and it's crashing the whole market by itself while rising link investments who were already invested in. That kind of crazy hype reminds me of two instances in past FIFA's. The first one is ScreamPK from last year in FIFA 20. I don't know if you guys remember this card. This came out during Scream, which was early on. And for an early SPC, this card was nuts and it was very cheap. All center-backs in the game got destroyed. All of the Spanish La Liga links went up. So it was crazy to see that hype with that SPC and also player of the month, Jamie Vardy from last year crashed like all the strikers in the game because it was super duper cheap. This is what this Renato was reminding me of. It's reminding me of this PK SPC just because again, the hype that there was with that SPC. So again, that's the video for today boys. Happy Sunday, happy Easter if you're celebrating and watch out for that Eric by SPC. But I wanted to make this video talking about this Renato Sanchez because he actually came out, EA did the business. We expected it with this promo, right? This promo is basically all the super meta cards, the FIFA fan favorites, I guess you could call them for the past like two years all got cards this weekend. So it's been crazy. But let me know again down below in the comments if you're doing Renato Sanchez and how you're gonna link him to your team because I'm very curious to know how you guys are fitting that card with the interesting links that he has in side of your ultimate teams. But if you enjoyed this video hit a thumbs up on it. Of course drop it down below if you have any questions and of course subscribe if you're new. It's been Nate the Foot Accountant. I will catch you guys later. Peace out.


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tina koutou, tina tātou, nā mai haarimai ki tina tunga. Namihiki a koutou, nā kai kodero mai tinae wa. Ko Amy Joseph toko ingoa hi kai mahi aho no tipuna mautiranga o Aotearoa, te legal deposit librarian aho, tina koutou, tina koutou, tina tātou koutoa. And that. Just greetings to all of you and to our speakers for the first and second session in this stream. I'm Amy Joseph, I'll be both the chair for this session and also the moderator for the panel and I'm at the National Library as the Legal Deposit Librarian. Is that an assigned micrana at the back there? Excellent. So thanks to Tanya for stepping up to volunteer, but we've got Sean at the back of the room who will be our micrunner. OK, so our first session is a panel discussion, just kind of a bookend to the panel discussion that Jay and Hannah had yesterday with the digital creators. This is the digital collectors panel discussion. After that, we will have a session from Sarah and Paul on the discovery wall at Tūranga, I think is the name of the New Christchurch Library. Excellent. So I'll do a bit of an introduction to this panel and then pass over to our panellists. So NDF is a very well-established venue for inspiring conversations about digitising our existing collections, making them available and about providing rich and engaging user experiences online and in our physical spaces through the use of digital technologies. But I feel like we've talked a little bit less, at least in recent years, about building our born digital collections and what that's going to require, which is why I propose this panel during the call for papers. We'll certainly be picking up on some of the threads that have already been present in the conference this year, including, as I said, the panel that Jay and Hannah convened yesterday in conversation with creatives and creatives, also Fiona and Maastriki's presentation on acquiring online content to support the acquisition of a physical artwork at Te Papa, and also some nice bookends on the main stage yesterday with Michael Edson's entreaty that cultural institutions must find new ways to leverage their combined vitality and power and to involve communities and individuals more. And Jess Moran's lightning talk, starting to explore how we and the National Library in particular might facilitate just that for born digital collecting. My provocation to the panellists ahead of this session was to consider particularly how we respond to the ways in which contemporary born digital art, objects and documentary heritage blur boundaries, boundaries, for example, between the digital and physical worlds, between the artists, the objects they're creating and the audience, between software and the artistic or informational content that that software conveys between the node and the network and even between the traditional boundaries and mandates of our respective institutions. So I'll very briefly introduce our panellists and then they'll each give a lightning fast overview of what they see as the opportunities as well as the challenges of born digital collecting. Then we'll do a very brief recap on some of the key themes to emerge from that creatives panel yesterday before we move into questions. We were going to have a creator on this panel but unfortunately for various reasons that fell through. If we happen to have any creatives in the room, you're very welcome to join in the conversation and that's true for anyone in the room for that matter. We want this to be a broader conversation than just the four of us. So if at any time you want to contribute, make yourself known to Sean, who is our mic runner, of course, as you know by now always make sure you've got the mic before asking your question or making your comment. But do feel free to do that at any time. And finally just a small caveat that our speakers may sometimes be speaking from a personal perspective rather than as the official voice of the institution, particularly in response to a question they may not have the answer or authority to speak as the voice of the institution. So bear that in mind. So our panellists are from your left to right, I believe. Jagatuso is a Digital Preservation Analyst at the National Library of New Zealand. Fiona Moorhead is the Collections Information System Manager at Te Papa and Tom Ackroyd is the Digital Collection Team Leader at Ngāo Tonga Sound Envision Archive. So at least someone has a burning desire to go first. We can also go from left to right for our intro sessions. Well, hello. Thank you, Amy, for this opportunity to join this panel and this conversation. My role at the National Library, I've been there for eight years, which feels like both a very long time and a very short time, has been as a Digital Preservation Analyst. And in that role I've worked very closely with the Legal Deposit Collecting Team as well as the Alexander Temple Library Collecting Teams and been involved in many projects that have crossed some of those boundaries and those divides that Amy was kind of describing. So born Digital specifically I think is a really exciting place to be. I think we've got heaps of opportunity to do great things and I do often worry that we are not leveraging that opportunity as best we might. I picked on three kind of key things and I've got a whole page of notes which I will spare you. I kind of drilled it down to the cloud as being one of our primary problems for me. There's an as a service model which means that we rarely own things anymore. We don't own metal, we don't own machines, we lease somebody else's computers. Things are increasingly turning subscription so we don't have access to content as is. We have it fed through a pipe which is fragile. We stop paying the monthly bills and the content disappears. And for me there's a real worry about missing out on serendipitous collecting which I think forms a big part of historical collecting and how we've found physical archives over the years. I think that's a real problem. Geography isn't real anymore. I mean it is obviously still real but in terms of where things reside and where things have been written, created, published to from, we're not bound by geography and some of our legislation, policy and internal kind of paradigms I think really still leverage a hard boundary concept and I don't think that's real anymore. I mean there's mechanisms which are real but I think we could be doing different things there. And then DRM is another problem as well. DRM is going to bite us very, very, very hard if it's not biting us already. DRM digital rights management so content if we imagine being given a bunch of books or papers whatever from a donor and they're all jumbled up and we've got a magical key that only one person can have and it's quite fragile we would really struggle with that and that's kind of what we're asked to do with digital stuff quite often and that's only going to go and get worse with HTML5 and the inclusion of DRM and the HTML5 standard. There's loads of legal stuff which I'm not going to touch and then technically I think primary for me is volume I think we've not reached saturation point. We haven't reached capability saturation point so we're still learning capability is still growing but the volume, diversity, complexity of this stuff is also exponentially growing and we're kind of I don't think we're anywhere near seeing the top of the hill and DRM's are going okay now what does it look like? We're still learning sometimes on a daily basis. So I guess that's kind of my introduction. I'll probably park it there and hand over to... Kia ora koutou. So my name's Fiona Morehead I am the Collections Information System Manager here at Te Papa so as well as looking after our Collections Information System and also Collections Online site in my spare time I look after digital collections both born digital and transferred to digital. So thinking about some of the challenges institutionally with this type of collecting, two things came to mind and I think I'm going to be echoing a bit of what Jay said already. So the first is knowledge do we have the right skills and knowledge across the organisation so this is not just the specialist skills for people who are working with digital heritage items day to day but it's also the knowledge held by all staff. So how do we know that staff are seeking out the right types of digital materials to collect and how do we know that once they're in our care these items are being offered adequate care that will ensure that they will exist into the future and is there sufficient knowledge about and support for digital collecting and digital preservation at the leadership level of our organisations. The second point is resources so do we have sufficient resources and the right tools to be able to care for these types of collections with digital becoming an increasingly intrinsic and vital part of people's lives today we're in the middle of a big upswing in numbers and volume of digital items coming into our collections with all collection types. Are we ready for this and do we have the right level of resources to be able to care for and manage these type of collections. Thanks. Thank you everyone. I just thought no it was a prompt to take a photo and now I wonder who to give it to. My name's Tom I'm a digital born digital collector at Ngatonga Sound and Vision the challenges that I think and opportunities as you said Amy that we face are to do with the blurring of boundaries in my work so that the traditional audio visual or time based media is now finding new homes integrated into multimedia works and that means the prospect, the exciting prospect actually I think of collaboration across institutions but also maybe the creation of new institutions and I think that's something that I'm keen to see more discussion around. A challenge as J.M. Piena appointed a volume, a shared volume of material that's not only available but actually coming into the collection, to our collection and number of items that you might catalogue as a separate item but also the digital size of these items as we go into much more high resolution imagery especially in film and TV. I got a couple of suggestions from colleagues around not just collection but the impact that collection has on preservation and in our organisation by preservation we mean the migration, the digital migration but the conversion from born digital files to something that's more normalised and that is archivaly more has longer life and can be supported by my next point open source solutions where we may not be able to rely on third party commercial organisations such as Apple or Avid or other software developers and so our emphasis these days is on working with open source solutions to transcode audio visual items into a format that will last longer. So it's very attractive but it's also complex to learn and operate off the shelf because commercial software of course has a wrapper, has a GUI, it's designed to be useful and to be easy to comprehend. Open source does not have that necessarily as part of it's manifestation. I think that's it from me. Thanks everyone. So as I said next up is trying to feed some of what we shared and learnt in yesterday's digital creators panel to feed into the digital collectors and making sure we're not operating in isolation so I wonder Jay in particular but anyone else who was at that session what were the big takeaways from that for you and for what it means for our work. Okay so the panel session, who was there yesterday? Show of hands and people make it. Okay so more people didn't make it, that's great. So we had three creatives, we had an artist, illustrator, we had a musician and we had a researcher, writer and we were asking them questions along how do they expect their content to be regarded over time what do they think reuse looks like of their stuff and questions I'm a bit obsessed with is what do they wish they had access to to their own of people that influence them. So in summary I think my biggest takeaway was we have work to do. I'm going to struggle to distill it down to something salient. I think there's some shifting attitude in terms of what ownership means of content, there's something about revenue, there's something about being on the internet always and that being where life happens rather than it being a final resting place for content. I think there's something about nuancing the collections and having fine toothed comb tools and policies that allow us to deal with rights management, that allow us to deal with an artist wanting to use and using successfully pirated material to generate their content and it landing in our laps as being something we are then obliged to manage and look after going forward how do we deal with the legacy of somebody else's perhaps less rigorous approach to copyright. And then also things like anonymity in which the writer researcher Nicky talked about quite extensively how do we protect sources safely and how do we encourage people to then deposit their content with us in a way that they're comfortable we're going to do justice to their secondary sources. That's probably enough on that, thank you. I would add to that from the notes that I took. To me it was striking that lots of the panellists said that their work was born digital stays digital, is self-distributed online and I think it's maybe an obvious thing to say but we are well and truly into the digital age now and we all know that for a lot of people there really isn't that much of an analog record. The contrast to that being that for Nicky the writer analog was increasingly important because of all those issues around privacy and security in the digital space and this is similar to what Burgess was saying this morning that we can kind of entreat people to be in control of their own content but platforms give people an audience that they will find much more difficult to cultivate for themselves so there really isn't incentive for creators to be on those platforms and in those ward gardens and that's just something that we have to deal with, I think. So those would be the main two for me. I'm interested if there's anyone who has anything that particularly struck them from that session. I was particularly interested in the way they talked about their archiving techniques their personal archiving techniques. My photographic collection is just insane and I have a librarian's mind of how I organise it but how they were doing it with hard drives less cloud was really interesting and how we're going to collect that and if we want to collect that and the internet archives as well. Jay, can you speak to the respective challenges of archiving from hard drives and from the cloud? I can give it a whack. So I think one of the things that two of them said was we don't delete anymore now we're digital we don't delete we just kind of shovel it off to the side and we get going so there was one explicitly and one implicitly was suggesting they're not self curating their own archive as they kind of go through their creation process. The net result is and we've dealt with this a couple of times at the library and it's their collection and it's a hard drive and we kind of have to work with them to assert what order looks like and to make sure that we're collecting and ingesting the correct things but I think increasingly that's a bit of a full zero and I think we can on the one hand just throw a big loop around and shovel the whole thing in and go like hey Philly boots or we do something where we go we'll have this file and that file and the rest is junk and who knows what the answer is. The cloud isn't even bigger mess I often it's a bit of a horror story about mega uploads where mega uploads got removed from the internet whatever was seven years ago 4% of the internet disappeared literally overnight it was there and then people woke up in the morning and it was gone and this is bunch of stolen stuff and also a bunch of you know proper things that people owned the IP for that they never got back again so the cloud it's got volume like hard drives but it's also got intangibility which I think we're going to really suffer from and so for me I think tools we don't have tools we don't have any sense of tool building what it means to have professional weapons grade tools that we can go and collect and harvest and manage collections of the scale that we're expecting to and without getting too far into kind of muddy waters there are agencies who do this and I think we heard this morning about agencies who are very competent at managing that level and scale of data we're not even in the same country let alone the same street same house same conversation so for me I think that we're missing something One other quick takeaway for me was Jim the comics artist pointed out that one of the sort of outputs of work in that community is brushes that they create and share online so people are also creating and sharing these tools as well as what we would consider more traditional outputs. A question for Fiona can you speak to the state perhaps of the art seen in New Zealand and to what extent artists are producing digital works or digitally kind of enhanced works and where Te Papa and other collecting galleries are seeing that going So my background prior to being here I've spent around 10 years working in contemporary art galleries and collecting institutions so that's where that question comes from I think it's an interesting one because I think that there are always trends in what art is being produced and also what art is being collected and certainly there has been a huge upswing in the amount of digital video work or interactive type works that have been created and then collected by institutions I don't know that I'm necessarily the right person to talk about the scale and types of this but I know in my work here at Te Papa there are certainly some challenging works that have been collected relatively early on in terms of New Zealand institutions collecting video art so works from say the early 2000s where they need revisiting and need format migrations, they need work being done on them in order for them to survive into the future and I think sometimes video art particularly has been collected by institutions without necessarily a clear understanding of foresight of how that will be managed into the future and it's something that has changed over time and I know a lot of collecting institutions do a form of questionnaire or interview process with the artist or creator to try and find out more about what is the life cycle of this artwork, will there be a time at which it needs to be migrated to a different form, is that okay or is there a possibility that the work will cease to exist and will need to be deaccessioned or considered in a different way in the future so I guess that's kind of an interesting idea when we're thinking of collecting we want to think about the perpetuity of collecting but I think the digital space is a much more interesting space where a collection may have a lifespan, a more finite lifespan Are you finding now that you're going back to artists that you acquired works from earlier when maybe these plans weren't so robustly in place and saying okay how do we extend the lifespan of this work at this point in time? I think that most collecting institutions who are collecting artworks that's a necessary part of that work and I think the longer it goes between the point of collection and the point that you have to revisit it, sometimes the harder it gets what happens when an artist is no longer living and you're dealing with an estate, what happens if it's a collective and the collective are no longer working together, the further down the track the more difficult it can be and it's also a question of resources often with collecting institutions you're looking at the point of acquisition you're always looking at the new things and sometimes it can be harder to backtrack in the things that have already been collected and try and solve some of the mysteries often from an art perspective those things are dealt with when the artwork is being considered for an exhibition or loan and sometimes the timescale required for that can make it too hard to deal with so it becomes yet another thing that is known about but not adequately dealt with and managed so that that artwork will continue into the future That probably makes a good time to insert a special guest question so we were going to have Nick Richardson who works at ACME on the panel when he was initially planning on being here for NDF and he had to stay in Australia but I asked if he had any questions to put to the panel and his question was so we know that with digital quite often the need for intervention is earlier in the life cycle of a work but are we learning ways of managing those interventions and offering advice and working with creators in a way that has minimal impact on the core of their artistic practice and the works they're trying to produce and how do we balance that tension so anyone can take that one I might give it a quick go and see if anyone else wants to comment I think it's always interesting particularly from an art context you can learn from some of your interactions and the whole in one approach is the only way of doing it and I think earlier in my career I found it really interesting I remember asking a colleague why don't we just make a set of rules and whenever we're receiving an artwork if it's a digital artwork we will only accept these formats and have this kind of information particularly with artists if anyone here in the audience has worked with artists and I think it's way more important to be more open and to have a good relationship and conversation with the producer rather than being a collecting institution that is all about the rules and expecting the artist or the maker of the collection item to conform to your sometimes from an artist's point of view maybe arbitrary set of rules and in the film and TV world is what resources do creators have at their disposal throughout the creation of their work and that talks to its dissemination how popular it will be whether it has the support of public funding whether it has the support of large commercial entities like studios and those studios and or post production facilities that are well established have very clear and one would hope consistent and long lasting procedures to look after that material but if you are a soul creator and you're not aware even of the existence of archival institutions such as Ngātānga, Sa'an and Vision the brand awareness of our organisation is high in certain areas of the population and low in many others that those interventions as you say met with kind of bewilderment and I often think now that it is what it is that what you are offered is if you're not able to go back to a creator and say actually could we have this, this and this that you take what they have and that is then defined as the object if you like whatever state it is in, if it was a VHS if it was a piece of film, if it was a low res Vimeo download as opposed to a piece of negative or something more master like and so everything in between I can go back to certain depositors and say we have relationships with and say you've offered this we would prefer that, do you have access to that if you don't I can talk to people who may and then that conversation goes on so I think having rules is appropriate in some instances like say with broadcasters and medium to high level film feature productions in small teams especially maybe at the beginning of their careers unless they're never going to pick up the phone and go hey to an archive and say hey how do I do this, they'll talk to who taught them and their peers I could probably talk to this topic for about 7 hours I think it's crucial to the success of longevity of information, I'm trying to in my head decide which of the 17 strands that kind of got pinged as our colleagues were talking that I wanted to talk to and I'm going to talk particularly about a particular format so we're format agnostic, we never make any guidance much to Amy Chagrin we are often asked can you tell us what format thing should be and we often refuse to do that because we specifically don't know influence the creative process often times a creator doesn't care and they just want a piece of sensible guidance and so I think sometimes good advice falls in that crack one of the reasons I'm working right now is music compositions pieces so they are of a particular software which I'm not going to name for reasons that may become clear and they were originally written in 2001 the collection is great it's a national collection of a national composer we can get contemporary versions of the software and we have a license for such except from when we open it with the software it says hey this was created in 2001 I've made a bunch of changes don't worry about it it's probably cool everything alright and that's it and I got into a conversation with them and I said hey like this probably is not okay for doing the work that we do we probably care a bit more about what those imaginary changes are they worked with me amazingly well for a very long time for a number of weeks which is a long time in keeping the attention of a software ticket and then eventually it got to their management layer and they decided they were not going to support us so they bought the software from 2001 they don't want it to support it they don't want to sell me a license and so I can't actually legally buy the software from the vendor for the product that was created in 2001 that's not very long ago so I think for me we're still unraveling the challenges of 20 years ago I would hate for us to be in 20 years time bickering about what do we do with Twitter and what do we do with Facebook you know I would imagine those companies are going to be long gone I suspect they might or might not and not as my employer but I hope that in 20 years time we're not still thinking about what it means to collect that stuff I think we've learnt enough and I hope that the advice that we can give to to people who are willing to work with us is along the lines of using open source of managing that stack that the technology stack sanely and really thinking about the distance of the object that you are collecting but also and counterintuitively dealing with things like that the colleagues yesterday were talking about which is they want to see process so let's look over the shoulders of creators and not just take their scrapbooks let's take them making that process and think across those boundaries and do different things because I think at the moment we're missing some of that story one of the boundaries that I mentioned in the preamble was the distinction between an object of interest as the node and the network that exists within and possibly another node in that network is the audience or the person who is consuming that content so I guess with that I'm trying to say that a lot of the time in various different fields of endeavour the kind of works that people are producing may rely on input from the user or about inferring knowing something about the user from that is flooding around them to make a decision about what to present to them and also that it can be very hard to extract a bounded thing that lives on the internet from that context and put it away in a collection so I just wonder if you have any comment on how we deal with those nodes in this very very intricate network that we've decided of importance to continue to understand and access into the future I'll chuck a starter on the table and it's a bleak answer I'm afraid sorry Amy I think for me one of the answers lies in organisational readiness, organisational digital literacy, I think if we're making collecting decisions if we're making collection choices we're obliged to understand the domain from which we're collecting and if the voices which are informing progressing working on every stage don't have a really comfortable grounding in what they're dealing with I think we've got a problem so I think the challenge back would be think about your organisation and think about those people who you have doing that collecting do we offshore the really careful professional information management that is digital collecting to the institutional ICT who may be very good at understanding the enterprise level mechanisms perhaps less well versed in what the archival practice or forensic like practice we might want to adopt so for me I think organisational digital literacy is a real key to this knowing the domain we work within helps us to start to explore what the problems actually are and have professional conversations about what our challenges are I know Fiona yesterday one of the things that Tepapa discussed when they were looking at capturing the Instagram account that went along with the artwork was do we feel comfortable taking the interactions of other people with the Instagram accounts who interacted with the Instagram account from the collective so maybe you could very quickly recap what decision you made there sure so the artwork that Amy's describing is an artwork by Matahau Collective a collective of full women who made a large sculptural work made from many layers of sewn tarpaulin which has been exhibited at Dokumenta in Kassel in Germany and is currently in the Oceania exhibition at the Royal Academy in London and so when this artwork was proposed for acquisition both the sculptural element and also some digital elements were considered as part of the one acquisition so the digital elements were a website containing narratives about taniwha that sat alongside the artwork but another element was the Instagram account of the collective that documented the conceptualisation and production of the sculptural artwork and also the process of the collective taking that artwork to the exhibition in Germany and so there was quite a long process and a lot of discussion about what would be collected and why it would be collected and the Instagram account displayed pictures created by the collective but also comments from their colleagues and friends and supporters and that was a challenge that we had to work through if we wanted to collect this what would it mean to have all of these comments that people had made on Instagram who didn't necessarily think that it would end up within the national collection and so the resolution we came to with that after speaking with Victoria Leachman, the rights manager here at Te Papa was to collect a recording of the Instagram account but for it to be collected in a way where it could be used by researchers and also by staff members to understand more about the context of the creation of the artwork but it wouldn't necessarily be displayed alongside the artwork and so that in discussion with Victoria we came to the conclusion that that was an acceptable example of this collecting of social media that it wouldn't necessarily be plastered on the walls with people's comments you know out of context and people being very surprised that that was collected but I guess another example that comes to mind for me is the exhibition spaces recently you would see an artwork by Janet Lilo which includes screen captures and also video footage by members of the public so the screen captures are from a now defunct social media platform called Bebo and the videos are people like fan art creating versions of their favourite songs and so that is another recent acquisition within Te Papa's art collection and obviously that has some really big repercussions. What does it mean as Amy said before what does it mean when you are an institution collecting something that has been created by somebody who doesn't necessarily abide by the same copyright means that we would if we were creating this item ourselves what does it mean to collect something that contains another person's creative work that they didn't necessarily create as part of that artwork and one of the resolutions that we've come to with that is that we will be receiving the final version of that artwork in a form that we can essentially take down items from that artwork in conjunction with the artist so for instance if somebody comes to us who created one of those videos and they objected their video being part of Janet's artwork it can be removed from the final cut of the artwork but oh my goodness it's like I think it's awesome how artists work to stretch boundaries and also sometimes to challenge us in this way and while it may cause headaches for us managing these collections I think it's really refreshing and I hope that artists and creators keep doing this because it's just an awesome stretching of the boundaries but also the creative process moving in new directions. That's really interesting and I've thought of a version of that before I mention it. These things change over time so the older something gets the less worried people are about peering into past lives and I'm thinking of Patrick Pan's exhibition at the City Gallery recently which is the photographs in that collection would extend back at least 100 years some of them and they're all presented without I was going to say without permission. These are photographs that may have been private that have slipped out into other collections he's scared eBay for years buying these things putting them on display. It was a fantastic exhibition and it was a glimpse into people's past lives but also the artists conception of reflection and the construction of it but I wonder whether he and the City Gallery have had these same kinds of conversations perhaps not because it's so old it's moved beyond that it's become part of the commons I would argue and I don't know whether that would happen again with current digital work. There is publicly available on the internet Instagram if you follow someone on Instagram and they haven't got a locked account then any questions or comments from the audience at this point? I wanted to move into some questions that are loosely based around some formats. They're not necessarily questions about formats but I'm going to frame the conversation around them. I was trawling through some of the strategic documents of our respective institutions in preparation for this panel and one of the sentences that jumped out at me from Ngā Tungan's strategy is the statement moving image and sound is the prime currency of modern culture and we've talked about video art as well so that's also an example of moving image at least and probably sound as well and if you think about something that would traditionally be collected by the National Library what are the conference proceedings of this conference? The NDF YouTube channel there may be people who may choose to share papers and slides and other things online as well but definitely the primary conference proceedings are the videos. So that's a case where most collecting institutions are interested in collecting sound and vision content for different reasons and having different mandates that kind of motivate that so I wonder if particularly Ngā Tunga is thinking about how they collaborate and lead in that space and how we maybe redraw some of the boundaries and try to avoid duplication of effort in all those sorts of issues. I've been in conversation with colleagues at National Library about just this and as you know and I think again it goes back to my point of involving the creator but also practically looking at policy and going well is it within Ngā Tunga's policy to collect the proceedings of a conference such as this as a video record that it would fall into if I was accessioning this myself I'm not sure whether I would call it it's not a published work necessarily it's not edited it's not performance it's what form is it and what genre is it these are the questions I ask and if the NDF is saying that the YouTube and video recordings of this conference are the true record of it as opposed to anything else written or published online then that is a conversation that I think could be had with Ngā Tunga sound and vision and possibly with the library as well but we do bump up against the problem of YouTube, of how to collect from YouTube and whether that's a, legal, b, can you get the best possible quality from it and therefore maybe having conversations earlier in the piece with NDF or similar institutions to pre-empt that collection imperative. I love that you raised the question of whether or not an edited or very lightly edited video was a published work or not because we're having so many conversations about the distinction between what is published and unpublished internally within the library so again where those boundaries are shifting any comment from that side of the table so I think one of the problems we have as heaps of stuff I think one of them is the intellectualisation of what things are, form and genre I think is a barrier, I think we intellectually can imagine that the proceedings of a conference are a collectible entity, they are the units of informational distribution within the conference we just struggle to put them in a clean box that we can then put on a shelf and forget about so I do wonder whether there's something we need to do about re-evaluating what that means there's another one I wrote down, it's volume we ought to collaborate, we may want to collaborate but in the end I don't think the tools that we have scale sanely enough to mean that the library for example could just give all of its moving video to a moving video entity and they would deal with it, I think we all have more work than we can deal with and I think that's actually a problem in and of itself so until such times as we have efficient workflows and toolings we are automating as much as we possibly can in the Nali edge cases and not the bulk of the work, I think we're going to be stuck where we currently are and then finally on the YouTube thing, again I think it's fascinating that we're still having this conversation, I think I would hope that by now intellectually we understand that there's a problem and that we've got a direction of travel and I know that there is work happening in this space as a professional, as an individual I am painfully frustrated that this is still a conversation that we need to have are we legally allowed to collect from YouTube? I think YouTube played its position to be a market dominant product and by that it kind of dominates the commons and I think for me there's an obligation that they play fair and they allow collecting institutions with a legal madeo to collect it to deal with that so this is my personal view and may or may not reflect the views of my employer I wish that we weren't having this conversation because it's a solved problem we can collect from YouTube if we want to, there are tools that do it for us they collect the content as best possible, they collect the comments but we are operating in a very conservative risk averse model for understandable reasons which means that we're in practice because of problems which I suspect we're kind of creating for ourselves a little bit and I wonder whether there's any movement that we might be able to get in a national platform that just says you know what we're just going to get on with it because and that's kind of the bottom line Well we did have last week Internet New Zealand had a public event as part of the International Internet Preservation Consortium conference and they had Vint Cerf, father of the Internet and Grand Pubar of Google somehow who stated that these platforms have an obligation to enable archiving because of its importance to the evidentiary record so that's a good one to have to point at Moving from a probably reasonably well understood format at this point well that's a broad statement to make but from these traditional sound and moving image formats to emerging formats apps, virtual reality, augmented reality and Tom's point right at the beginning in his introduction about the possibility of emerging new models for collaboration and even entirely new institutions and for me working in legal deposit where we say publishers have to give us a copy of their publication like that's a simple thing sometimes it's not sometimes they just don't have the ability or the right to give us the app or the platform that is required to run the publication and even if they do that then gives us this huge diversity of software and platforms that we have to manage over time and sort of become a software shop so I guess with these emerging formats that are just so much more intricate coming out how do we approach that as a sector Well I mean I don't think the tools we have are mature enough Amy I really think we need to spend a lot more time digging around in what we've got and I loved your words from earlier solve some of those mysteries of the stuff which is 20 years old and it will start to inform what practice looks like for dealing with this today so we are really behind the curve apps are happening and they're a thing and I can't put my finger on any significant national collections that deal with that in a meaningful way there are little bubbles of great things that we have managed to grab but as a concept they're still amorphous and there isn't a simple answer and in the end it's going to come down to funding a platform that allows us to emulate specific environments to replicate specific databases to have permission to blah blah blah I mean we know technically how to do it but realistically we're not funded we're not even anywhere close to that conversation right now so I think time doing the stuff now to understand some of that conjecture around the intellectualisation of objects helps us to inform some of those bigger questions If I can add to that as well I think that I really agree with what you say Jay about the idea that we may think that this is a recent issue with apps and like VR and AR and all the rest of it but we certainly have things in our collection that have been in our collections for some time that we haven't adequately managed or dealt with so I'm working through a couple of examples at the moment where an item has been collected that has been considered as a purely physical object but it has software that runs and it has a digital component that the curator who was part of the acquisition didn't consider as being important or maybe it was just too hard at the time and so we've got things sitting in our collection stores that have time based or digital elements that are an opportunity for us to work on and to enhance that object and make it useful in different ways and I don't say that as a criticism in any way it's obviously something that we're all grappling with and it's something that is going to increase over time and I think the other thing that comes to mind for me is the different to a legal deposit environment with a collection where items are considered individually by curators for acquisition and digital literacy of understanding what will this collection item be used for over time, how will it be researched displayed, understood by people in the future so I think it's one of those things that we need to all work together within institutions to increase our knowledge and expertise in this area I know there's a lot of records that I've come across in our published library catalogue from the mainly 90s and 2000s where there's a field like contains one computer disk no more information about what that might be so we've got some surprises waiting for us in our vaults I think. I'm not sure I have a comment. Well actually I mean I think this idea of possible new institutions is all well and good and I think the history of one of the collections that Ngātā Angostān and Vision which is the film archive came out of that need in 1981 Jonathan Dennis said who's collecting this film, no one I'm going to do it and he did and now we've inherited that collection so of course there's precedent for this and I would like to think that the kind of conversations we have today and I take your point Jay about intellectualisation and you know maybe I was being more of a mouthpiece there and I agree personally that you know the Library of Congress forms and genres perhaps in bad need of updating and also challenging but the idea also I want to throw this out is what is a work, where are the boundaries of the work and I'm thinking in particular one thing that I've been grappling with a multimedia publication called The Valley which is a website it's a traditional TV documentary it's an AR app it's a bunch of hypertext it's a bunch of comments, breakout videos that kind of, that is to me is a work it's called The Valley it's produced by Stuff Circuit and it's published and we need to collect it and at the moment we're not because it's those things are spread out by necessity because it's a new form so I would hope that either we do have a new institution or an established cross collaboration between institutions that is tasked with setting out a pathway to go down. Alright we're going to have to leave it there I did like the, I think Fiona was getting at the notion of kind of the significant properties of a work emerging at the end there so I would have liked to have touched on that but we really don't have time very much to our panellist there is clearly no shortage of things to talk about if any of this sparks anything with you then do come up and talk to us and let's get those collaborations going and I'm sure Tom and I have more to talk about after this to keep that particular cross institutional collaboration going so thank you


Kia ora whānau. So, I'm feeling really connected to you right now because the reason I'm standing here is my mother. She instilled in me a vision and a passion for community. And I'm here to talk to you about a future of health care. Health care that can be made freely available to everybody that's easy to access. Call Matthew. Call White Tākere. And I just want to say as well thank you so much for the compassion and the connection that we've been creating during Welcome Week with the Te ēta Tainanaki iwi. I feel like I've been reborn as a New Zealander. So this is my mum. 2015, she was diagnosed with motor neurone disease.  But one thing that I struggled with was that my very first telehealth project was nearly 20 years earlier where we connected high speed connectivity between two district health boards in the west coast. And I couldn't understand why we had to manage my mother's health using Google Docs. I took a closer look and started to see that there were much bigger challenges. Those of you from New Zealand will be well aware of nursing strikes. The public health care system is grossly under resourced and those of my new friends from the states will be well aware of the burden of cost that is being put on people through insurance companies. But in New Zealand it's a bigger problem. There are over 100,000 people that cannot get access to a doctor because they don't have a car. If you live in the Waikato and you're a woman, there's one in three charts you're not actually going to be able to see a doctor on the day that you want to see them. And everybody's well aware of the issues that we have with rural health and mental health and inaccessibility for New Zealand where we don't have GPs that are in regional New Zealand. And let's be honest. Do you really want to go and see a doctor? It's not a fun experience. So we put it on your phone. We're all used to using these things. We buy pizzas. We order clothes. We do our shopping. So I've made it simple to get access to a full medical team. Nurses, doctors, clinical psychologists. Click, call, consult. The whole setup process takes less than two minutes. And most people that are currently using this get access to it for free because it's either covered by their insurance company or given to them by their employer. If you need a script, we can do that.  It takes no more than seven to ten minutes out of your day. So I've removed the barriers of time, travel and cost. So you can start to take care of yourself. So this is Samantha Cook. In Napier, she was finding that her patients were coming into her pharmacy because they couldn't get an appointment at the GP clinic. Now she's able to use our peer-to-peer platform to hand over a tablet, have that person have a consultation and help them in their time of need. How would you like to see a doctor sitting in this room? Quite a different experience. This is the future of work where your employer is taking care of you and allowing you to live your whole life by giving you and your family access to free healthcare. A quick shout-out to Callahan Innovation. We wouldn't have been able to do this project without them. We co-funded the R&D for a remote monitoring blood pressure trial. Now why is blood pressure so important? Because we can pick up the likelihood of disease if we can tell what your blood pressure is. So this is Brendan, Dr Terrence, who's one of our GPs and Andrea. And the cool thing about what these guys are doing is they have New Zealand's first subscription medicine service. I think kind of like Netflix, right? On demand or you can eat, paid monthly. And it's kind of an unusual thing because this is the amount the government actually pays to keep you healthy at the moment. It's just you don't see it until you show up to a doctor. What kind of paradigm shift could we create if we could bring this type of commercial model to New Zealand? To be honest with you, I already have. And all I've been talking about isn't the future of healthcare. It's what's currently available now. So where do we doke it from here? We can connect our medical team to the devices in your pockets. We're already monitoring blood pressure. We'll start to monitor glucose. And these devices are going to be freely available to everybody, very cost-effectively. Around $30 per device.  We're not that far away from this. Also, I'm seeing and predicting a combination of Western and Eastern and also iwi values when it comes to medicinal care. We have amazing Western methodologies for technology, but it's combined with Eastern methodology and iwi values that I think is what I would like to see for our healthcare system. So I'm here and the reason I joined EHF is to find partners. People that want to work with me to create a system, or a public healthcare system that we want for New Zealand and then start to take that to the world. So thank you very much for taking the time to listen to me. I really appreciate everybody being part of this today.


Jordan, what do you think allowed you to go deeper in this game today, the longest start for a starter this season? I really just tried to attack the zone. I came out walking the first guy and settled in and tried to throw strikes with a bunch of pitches. Jordan, I see that the offense has not been doing what they typically do. Does that put more pressure on the pitch? Can you say that again? The offense, not doing as much as they normally do. Does that put more pressure on you guys? No. Pitchers as a whole, we all knew we got to go out there and just do our job and we know our guys are trying to hurt us. So if you think it like it like that, you probably could put extra pressure on yourself, but just trying to go out there and give us a chance to win. What was it like facing Cabrera in those situations? That third time was pretty exciting. I think if you had standing ovation, it got really loud and I just wanted to make a pitch. Does that affect you? The surroundings? No. You're able to block that out? Yeah. What are you like facing someone like that? In your head, are you saying this is the first man on Hall of Famer that I'm facing and it's fun for you? I wouldn't say it's fun facing McGee because he's so good, but it's definitely exciting and it makes you up your game. Is there some relief after every time you get him out because it's not this at that? Not really. I'm not thinking about it like that. I feel like if I had, it would have been the next AB. So really was just trying to go after every guy individually.


And how did you come across this problem? What were you doing before you were doing work BNB? And how did this come to you? Oh, excellent question. So I was in marketing and advertising before I got into this branding. I was part of the Chevy Volt launch in Southern California. I got to work with Chevrolet. I got to work with Solar City on their marketing. So when you learn a lot about marketing, you learn a lot about asking questions. And that is something that tech founders really kind of lack. They usually kind of build products based on their own experiences. And then they hope that they scale. And they hope that they find people. And I don't like to put my future into just this hope category. I want to do my research.