Can you guys here stay safe? Hey everybody? How's it going? How's all year? Hello chants. Hello. Hi Is everything good chat? It's been a it's been a little while. So like a lot of the settings and stuff are off It's good to see you guys Very very good to see you guys very excited. See you guys. So classic ass is back season 2 this is something that a lot of people have wanted for a long time now and it's just It's just something we're really really excited about about being back for burning crusade classic is coming out a lot of you guys already know that and We thought it'd be a good idea to To bring classic ass back and talk about everything that we want to do that's one remind us So when when is the TVC beta again? It is an unannounced, but it will be soon. So, okay Yeah, there's a lot of people that think that it's probably gonna end up being in what was that leak? What did that leak say? March 16th, I think is what the leak said the leak the leak said March 16th. So In a week So it might I mean, I don't know. There was that other leak right before it, right? That said like February well, there was a leak before that said February and there's another leak that said pre-patch will be in May and There's a whole lot to talk about what we know with with burning crusade so far Until anything's official from blizzard like obviously like we don't really know what's gonna happen, but But it is fun to talk about for sure But first things first, how's everybody doing? How are you guys doing tip stay safe? I'm doing good man It's been a while obviously. It's really cool. I was just saying before we started It's really cool to see the overlay. I think the last time we did one of these stay safe wasn't married I didn't have a kid And and nothing changed for me That's one wasn't the GTRP streamer. He's killing sure. Yeah, the GTRP has been going really good Fill in the police training, you know, yeah, yeah But yeah, it's been great. It's really cool to see everybody I can't see chat on my end So hi everybody, but but yeah, it's been a long time Been busy obviously with some OTK stuff behind the scenes haven't been streaming as much But you know when S-Fan let me know that he wanted to bring classic cast back Honestly, definitely think the reunion episode would be worth it. So it's good to see you guys It's good to see S-Fan obviously stay safe haven't been seeing or talking to as much lately, but it's good to see you too, man Yeah, I feel like You know, this is so busy with OTK stuff. We're in different different Portions of you guys are in Texas. I'm in Oregon and COVID, you know Whereas we used to see each other like once or twice a year at conventions or I would go down to Texas Or even S-Fan came up to Oregon one time. It's like COVID has just locked everyone down rightfully so right? It's got to get seriously, but Man, yeah, it's weird because this last year I think it's because we all ended up playing classic a little bit differently and you know, the issue was exacerbated by COVID I feel like it's sort of pulled us all apart a little bit Yeah And so it's nice to come back and do class cast again and kind of touch base and see how like guys this episode We're gonna kind of recap class I can talk about, you know What what we're what we're gonna do for TBC and go over all the TBC news So it's gonna be a really good recap episode and if you didn't watch class cast back in the day We're gonna go over everything that we talked about before right? So it's gonna be really good today Yeah, and yeah, I guess it's a good point to just to let people know what class cast is because there's probably a whole lot of people here that are new that Warn around whenever we do class cast almost every week leading up to classic while launch So classic wow is is a burning crusade podcast now right before it was been a while talking about classic while in general actually but We we kind of did it leading up to wow classic and preparation for while classic and just kind of sharing what we know about it and what our opinions and stuff are and It was a lot of fun. It was great and we're really excited to bring it back like I said earlier so we're gonna be doing the same for burning crusade and then however However that goes like I guess currently the plan is that we're going to be doing like a Like kind of like a series of episodes where we will we'll go in and we'll do We'll do it leading up to burning crusade and then at that point we'll decide what we want to do So I think in hindsight I kind of wish that we had kept doing it While while we were playing classic a lot more, but it's just kind of like kind of like stay safe said earlier With how everybody was playing the game different and different schedules and stuff things just kind of got like crazy. So We'll see what happens. Yeah, we'll see what happens. It's gonna be a lot of fun It is true though We we had the idea for classic cast in late 2017 and then we started I think in early 2018 It's been like probably over three years maybe since the first episode of class cast Yeah, an old tips, you know tips how to baby. I'm married have a baby in two months man a lot has changed, right? Yeah, yeah for sure. It's been it's been really good Um, it's so good. Sorry go ahead tips Nothing, I just I just remember I'm like thinking back to the first time we we had spoken together about class cast on like the phone It was weird I was just like in a parking lot walking around and we were like talking about names and Like how we wanted to do it and what the structure should be and stuff like that It's just a trip man. It's a trip that it's been three years. That's yeah because I'm trying to think real quick how it happened was like it I think so tips had just started making videos and So stay safe and I had had known each other for a while And we had talked about potentially doing a podcast or something in the past and then we just kind of like table the idea and Then tips that just started making videos and tips with somebody who used to watch my stream back on YouTube Before before I switched it to age and that whole thing. That's kind of long story but tips asked me about doing a podcast and I was like it's funny that you say that because Stacy and I were just talking about this and That's kind of that's kind of just how how it all started and just got the ball rolling and It's been a it's been a crazy Three years now since since the old private server days It's funny even bigger than classic cast you look at like the the big classic wow streamers these days They're all private server guys from back in the day. Those are the guys that stuck around Yeah, for sure. So it's been It's been it's been really really cool to see just everything everything that's happened in the last few years and everything with classic wow and how that's developed and Some good and some bad actually I mean, there's been plenty of times especially if you watch my stream Like, you know, like I'll definitely complain about certain things that I think they should have done better or whatnot but Let's go ahead and start with that today actually it's kind of like a little bit of a wrap-up of classic and Even though we all still play classic and all that there's no more There's no more phases coming out specifically for the vanilla part of classic and we're kind of getting ready for TBC pre-patch. So before we get into pre-patch and that kind of stuff How did you guys feel overall about classic? Stay safe. You want to go first on this one, man Obviously there were some things that were mishandled. I think interestingly enough as classic has gone on I think it's a lot of the basic systems have gotten better like obviously the spell bashing windows being reduced That's sort of sort of in preparation for TBC the way layering worked. They improved a lot. They made good black lotus changes And there's other things I wish they would change but they actually all throughout classic wow have made some positive changes I wish they would change some other things, but You know, I put it this way if they ever do classic fresh like a year from now where it's like they They it's a new one to 60 classic well server. I think it'll be better than what we experienced over the last year and a half I think classic 2.0 will be better than classic 1.0 if they redo that Based off of some of these changes that they've already made throughout the last year and a half of classic Absolutely, and you brought it up if you had asked me that question as fan like Three or four weeks ago. I would have had a very different opinion than I do now And that's because you know when they when they made the effort to reduce the spell batching window We've seen a couple of surveys come out talking about potentially a classic plus type thing where they relaunch classic and Perhaps make some more changes in the new version all of that's very promising Overall, I think classic was in terms of like blizzard probably a phenomenal success Otherwise, we wouldn't be getting TBC. I Looking back on it. I I really enjoyed certain parts of it other parts, you know It was unfortunate, especially around phase 2 the launch of phase 2. I think was probably yeah, the big tipping point for me Where it was just like, okay, you know, it's just Things need to change a little bit But looking back on the experience from start to finish I'm very happy with it like I was I was going over some forum posts the other day because A lot of people recently have been talking about like, oh man, the no changes community and no changes.  We were talking about a little bit in a private discord But going back and seeing what classic could have been Compared to what it turned out to be and what I mean could have been like in terms of how bad it could have been I think overall when you analyze it from that perspective, I do think it was still very very good Because really could have messed a lot of things up like when rift released their classic version It was awful like other games had tried to re-release classic versions awful But I think the way blizzard did it compared to most other MMOs that that get this treatment or other games in general I think they did a pretty good job and I'm very excited about classic 2.0 if that ever comes Well, I I think it was something I saw you post somewhere It was like, you know as far as the hashtag no changes movement You need to understand the you need to understand the context under which like that was being expressed So when the whole no changes thing started there were people on the forums It's like immediately after the classic announcement people on the forums like wow classic wow, let's have wow token Let's have pandarans. Let's have and so then the response is like Hold up no changes like and that doesn't mean like I don't know like obviously there are things I Was gonna say Like for me I would consider certain things about classic that are technically no changes right as far as like dungeon XP and XP boosting and world buffs But it's like was this the intended way for people to play the game Like did blizzard back in the day intend for people to use an elaborate level 20 warlock summoning alt network to get Every world buff in the game and kill bosses in 30 seconds. Like yeah, probably not like did people intend to like What is for the most viable leveling strategy to be afk inside of maradon will a mage? Like it runs around and pulls 4,000 mobs. Yeah, probably not so even though that stuff is technically no changes I think to me it's a no-brainer Like we should probably not have that stuff in the game But like I think I think like the spirit of no changes like hey, let's not have achievements Let's not have pet battles like Like that's kind of how I always took it and I'm happy that they that they Didn't have those kind of changes, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I think like It's just one of those things in general where whenever you have one group of people going one way really hard Then you have like a like a bounce back going really hard the opposite way and what blizzard has had to do completely No changes and we talked about some of that stuff like I know I talked about Some things with spell batching right like well that was something we were all kind of concerned with was Being worried that blizzard's gonna try and like overcompensate or maybe we're just flat out wrong about what the spell batch window is and It ends up being way too big right which is exactly what happened. I still think that if spell batching was a lot smaller there are certain mechanics that Mechanics of the game like the ways that like the game is played that have a lot to do with how batching works But blizzard did two things wrong with batching and one they made the window massive It's 400 milliseconds and I think it was 200 on private But not only that they put the entire game on a batch literally every interaction and classic while I was on a batch and It's not supposed to be like it is just not they they I want to re-talk to a vendor you shouldn't be on a batch whenever you're looting something you shouldn't be on a batch at all It should be strictly like combat with like certain abilities now. They are getting rid of the batch, but and this is something that might come in pre-patch or a Patch right before pre-patch. I don't know but if you play on the classic test server right now classic PTR You'll see that they are getting rid of the batch But there's certain things they are going to specifically be putting on a delay or a batch To be able to kind of like account for how the game is played or meant to be played or whatever One of these things is seal twisting Which a lot of people have talked about with because if they get rid of batching completely then the way that you seal twisting classic doesn't work so They've manually made some changes to account for that and fix that which is cool I Don't know. I haven't seen you talk about this I don't know if anyone's talking about this as far as like the double like you can have seal a button alliance and vengeance on the Horde that that's a huge buff right for both factions because now you can have five stack vengeance and Blood in between as you're maintaining your five stack vengeance. That's actually like a really substantial retpal and buff going into TBC Well, it could be I don't know because I Don't think it's going to be efficient enough mana wise to run vengeance while you're doing seal of blood while DPSing because Well, all you have to do is get it up five stack and then swap back to it once every 14 seconds and one tap it top it off And then swap back. I don't know like I How long fights are right if I remember right? I think vengeance has to proc. I don't think it's an automatic Yeah, but oh no No, no if you have a slow weapon attack speed It's like a hundred percent proc pretty much. It's like really high PPM the proc chance scales off of your weapon attack speed. Yeah the So the thing is is with vengeance originally here's I kind of We'll talk about this a little bit more and a little bit like as we kind of move on in the show but how seal of vengeance works or the I guess the intent of seal of vengeance was that it was basically going to be like a a Paladin tanking seal while wearing warrior gear, which is essentially what happened with seal of blood Right seal of blood was like Paladin DPS while wearing warrior gear without any spell power mana or anything Seal of vengeance was the same way, but how it turned out Was a spell power weapon and just going with a typical spell power tanking build was just better anyway So then people ended up not really using vengeance now You can kind of twist vengeance and righteousness and stuff together for tanking, but um That's kind of like the difference between the two seals and like what their intent was blood was for DPS vengeance was for tanking and Vengeance to in my opinion wasn't even very good What I use vengeance for mostly back in the day was I used it for tools and I would I would use it as ropes to keep them from restilming Let me ask guys this on a getting off of the Paladin topic What was your favorite phase or like like highlight favorite portion of a phase of classic well? In retrospect 100% best part of classic Mm-hmm as a phase or like individual thing that happened Just it just like yeah, just any part so for me. I'll say probably The bug war is the scare of Lord grind that was probably the highlight that was so and so insanely fun Yeah, that was a really roaming around and PVP and griefing other gills that are trying to farm carapaces And all that was so insanely bad like fumigating the hives. That was really yeah fumigate That was really good. That was up there for me I think as far as like a gameplay phase goes it's now To be honest as far as gameplay is it's not yeah But that's just from a gameplay perspective Like I think Naxx is like a finely tuned raid and I don't think any other rados like that And it has a lot to do with the entire game being based on a patch 1.12 So yeah, which is I mean that that's one thing that like I kind of felt like burned by and that's something we talked about constantly on the show and It's kind of like this insistence on no changes or whatever blizzard made specific changes to the game They did because they they didn't have any sort of progressive itemization every Encounter was post nerf So everything basically all the characters were as strong as they were going to be in vanilla from the beginning outside of like Whatever gear they had but for the for for that gear that they had it was the best type of gear the bosses were the easiest version of the bosses now since Naxx wasn't released until the end of vanilla and then we got the end of vanilla version of everything That's why Naxx is like such like a Massive, I mean it was it was already a huge step up in difficulty, but it's two-fold because It's actually supposed to be that difficulty for the type of characters that we have whereas a queue BWL MC Everything was way easier on top of the fact that yeah, like we know the fights and this and that but we knew the fights and whatnot on private servers too and None of this stuff was this easy. So I do feel like they needed to make changes to account for the changes that blizzard decided to make Yeah, which was a lot of it was the itemization issues and whatnot because in my opinion that was just kind of lazy, right? I give private service had done the itemization which does lead into something to talk about for burning crusade as well But Naxx Naxx and phase six for me is so it's like so love hate because I think Naxx is the most fun most challenging Most individual player responsibility raid that there is in classic, which I think for me makes are the most fun The problem is the barrier of entry in so far as price point it costs so much gold. Yeah to perform in Naxx I think it's very cost-prohibitive That's like thoughts on the raid and then of course if you like to PvP, I think phase six PvP is probably the worst that there is People do so much damage. It's so bursting globally It's just not really you never have those like balanced fun Longer fights where people skill can sort of start to shine and you just start having people one shot or two shot each other And it just is way like I've been Q&B G's a lot lately, and it's like oh my god. It's just it's just disgusting Well, you know, you know, what's interesting actually is a I Remember it being that way on private servers, and I actually think it's less like that now that it was on private And I don't know why I'm just comparing back to how it's been throughout classic, right? Yeah, I have no idea why I feel less that way now. I can't I can't put my finger on it But I was playing the other day and I'm like I Mean like yeah, if you're geared you're geared But I think it's I think part of it has to do with the fact that a lot more people like the average player is a lot more geared now not only than back in vanilla But also even on private like I walk around I see people in tier 2.5 everywhere and That wasn't even a case on private servers.  It's like you're lagging behind buddy, you know, or it makes this very class maybe But sorry go ahead. Well to get back to your questions. They say what phase do I think was the best? Actually, this might be kind of a cheesy way to answer the question I actually think the best point of classic was the classic beta and I would actually agree with you by the way Like looking like I Recorded a ton of video footage of the beta that I still have and just like going through it a few times throughout the course of classic It was so fun, man Like it felt like a community The meta was unexplored and I think this is one of the biggest reasons why I enjoyed it so much You know, it stopped originally at level 30 who had played a level 30 meta before nobody really So, you know, you had it felt like almost a new game where you had to discover what the best-in-slot items were The world felt so dangerous because you know, you were level 30 and everything else was so much higher if you wanted to get certain enchants and stuff like that and You know no mounts, which was pretty significant too So it just felt like everything was fresh the server community was great And the game felt like truly unexplored and I had a frickin blast I think the beta super fun like one of the best experiences I've ever had in gaming So to touch on that and really to delve into that a little bit I think the key thing there is we saw something in the classic wow beta that we had never seen before in wow And that was specifically a level 30 meta people were Looking at stuff that they didn't even care about before Trying to min max at level 30 and it's like kind of like okay Come on, but it ended up being a really really fun in a lot of ways because we were learning different ways to play our characters and You saw like a greater range of imbalance in a lot of ways that That we don't see at level 60 right sure like there's certain things that are imbalanced and in this in this avenue or that avenue Great, whatever. I feel like in classic wow, especially in patch 1.12 or in phase 6 Kind of every class has some kind of thing that makes them overpowered right they have something that's just kind of like okay, that's BS and The game is a lot more from a PvP perspective The game is a lot more balanced than I think people give it credit for There are certain things that are completely dumb sure right like there's the elemental master mastery for shamans, right? Like the double crits and it's supposed to be one crit and they stop and fix that or there's certain specific things sure but It's at least in my opinion, I think the game is a lot more balanced and PvE. It's different and PvE It's very you know You one of your people are min maxing and then you have like a huge disparity between like certain classes as far as like PvE DPS goes, but if classic has been any any I guess evidence of this it's that you don't really need to go and try and speeder on or max everything out to be able to clear the content Right like for crusade for example. We had within three weeks. We had five raid groups full clear next and Well, I think now not every group does but For the longest time like every group had a rat paladin.  We had everything full cleared but a lot of that is because Preparation we had a lot of gold saved up and each sort of raid tier it just gets more and more expensive And that's that's something that Stacy mentioned a little bit earlier now No, yeah, I completely agree Yeah, I think I think you know talking about you know Like the best way to play the game or most fun way to play the game I think if I was gonna go because for you know I recently stepped down a couple months ago But I led a speedrun guild all through classic and we went for it got so refersed on Feralina a couple times We did this and that if I was gonna go back in time and replay classic or play classic again I would probably lead a speedrun guild with no world buffs a no world buff speedrun guild And then that would open you up to doing a lot more world PVP because you don't have to be raid log with your buffs and people can't counter grief you and It would just like yeah, I Get the whole world buffing. I'm still so mad about I think it's so bad for the game Like well your the way that it incentivizes you to actively not play your character for a couple hours or a couple days However along your raid logs and that is I want to be able to play my main when I want to play my main Right, that's my thing that's something that we talked about a lot too and in the older episodes of classic asked I think I actually like getting my world buffs But I think that a big problem like you said like incentivizing being logged off the biggest problem with world bus Isn't even the fact that they exist.   We would go and okay guys 30 minutes before raid we would just go make the rounds around the world then everybody would get the world buffs together And we didn't have to worry about resetting an enixia head right that's something else like they got rid of that there's there's so many little changes that they could have made to account for player behavior and account for the times and how People want to play the game. There are more people playing the game now than there were There are more people at level 60 playing the game and doing Endgame raid content and of those people doing all those things a lot more of them want to go get their world buffs and stuff because For a lot of people it's fun I think there is like a silent majority of people that like raiding with world buffs They just don't like the process of having to go get everything with the risk of like somebody clicking a button on you and getting Either your song flower or dire mall buffs I think I think it's like these are mma players I think it's reasonable to expect people to want to enmax and perform as high ways they can and this is Why things like dungeon boosting or world buffs things like this is so prevalent I think people would rather min max than have fun to certain agree like there's a break point, right? But it's like it's it's not fun to afk inside of maradon. It's not but it's like five times faster than doing quests So people kind of rationalize it It's like it's not fun for a lot of people to get world buffs or get grieved and do the pvp It's involved with it or get purged and be raid logged for a day and a half But you know you can't parse and you know you're not going to have a good run unless you get them And so it's like I in my opinion if you remove these things from the game You know, I really don't think a lot of people other than warriors. Okay, maybe red paladins too I don't think many people would miss them like it would make the rates harder People would be able to play their character more and you wouldn't have that guilt of like Man, I didn't get my world buffs. I'm not going to perform this week. I'm right back You know, I think it's like a weird um It's a good discussion to have because like you said there's some classes that affects a lot uh Like paladins for example like red paladins And really all hybrids, uh Well, I guess it's really just enhancements and red paladins because we get the benefit of melee and the spell stats from the world buffs So it's it's a night and day difference if if like I have my world buffs or not um You know like like we go and we we Like you just compare right? It's it's it's absolutely massive because like I've had you know, I think Go ahead I was gonna say I think like red paladins are probably as far as like removing world buffs Probably at the shortest end of the stick there, but I'll tell you like another good thing with getting rid of them Or just not having them in the game would be you look at like the top guilds are running like 22 warriors It's like, okay The reason why you have so many warriors is because warriors scale so much really hard with world buffs So if you drop out world buffs, you know, you might be able to make a reasonable argument to bring more mages or bring More warlocks then maybe you pop in a boomkin or what like who knows right? um, but like Yeah, I don't know sorry to say sorry to say Yeah, I I think I think world buffs do a couple of good things, but I think the battle ultimately outweighs the good but like The big thing especially I can always speak on my experience as a warrior When you play without world buffs as a warrior forget the damage side of it The class feel is so much different. You're not getting as many crits. You're not getting as much rage Your cooldowns just feel a lot slower It's literally just bloodthirst into whirlwind and then waiting you've got no extra rage to dump most of the time So like it actually feels really bad to play the class without world buffs So they help in that regard But also one thing world buffs do and if you log on to fair lina you can attest to this at least towards side um, one of the things you'll find right now in world chat and trade chat is All these different services for dire maltribute for booty based summons Yeah, you know buying and selling hearts and stuff like that They do add an element of of something they give you something to do kind of outside like raid logging typically And they do create this like small little social fabric where you know, if you're on horde side, you know, you hit up kumi If you want a dire maltribute summon and buff, you know, you know, you hit up What is it chonkler or whatever the guy's name is trunclari for like the booty based summon So like it adds some cool things like that and something to do But ultimately like the down the downside as you guys mentioned like having to log your character for multiple days Just to be able to secure away inside the griefing it adds um, and obviously the situation of the raids like If there was a way to get the best of both worlds where you could have world buffs maybe But you buff the raids and then the world buffs themselves are either non-dispellable or They're a token that goes into your bags that you activate inside a raid It kind of preserves the need to still go out and about in the world to collect these items collect these buffs those services stay intact Um classes still can feel good in the raids, but the raids aren't trivialized Maybe something like that because I do think they add something to the game But right now in their current state not more than what they take away Yeah, I think uh, I think from a design perspective what you just said with the tokens would probably like have made the most sense But then that that's like that that causes other problems right like okay Well now you need to have more opportunities for more backspace and this and that so um I think from a design perspective that does make the most sense but there is one more thing that you mentioned right there that uh You you kind of you kind of glossed over this right and it's it's uh going back to like the community aspect of the game And knowing people right knowing people on the server who do certain things and kind of like You know they they make like uh, they make a business on in the game doing whatever right like we have like a new best shadow Does uh Like has dynamal tribute open like pretty much all day every day And she just she just sits in there and eight gold and you just walk through and you get all your buffs Whatever Uh, and you can get a summon from from a number of people doing summons there or I think fame it does Huh, dude, they're just off on horde side dude kumi.  They're charges is 15 Well, look listen the alliance is a lot more like together on horde fair or alliance fair lina than than on horde fair lina Okay, it's just it's just how it is dude. Everybody's just trying to help each other out So uh the the beginning of phase one We were so outnumbered that there was like a lot of camaraderie and uh Goodwill built to or between all the guilds on the alliance side.  Man with really cool, you know attunement chains where you get attuned to the raid Yeah, like I think like slightly better class balance and maybe some you know better pvp system Will never happen. I don't think that'll ever. Yeah, I always said it I always said it. Yeah, you could call it shadow lans If they made a game if they made a game called or not called But if they made a game that was like right in the middle ish of Dark edge of cam lot and wow, it would just be so it would be beautiful And you know, you would obviously like have to account for the times and certain things we've learned and Uh, this almost kind of turned into a whole another discussion. We are going to get into like some specific burning crusade talk here pretty soon guys Um, we just kind of want to wrap up because it's been a while, right? We want to we we are all still playing classic and we're streaming classic Like, you know, stacy if you do your raids wednesday mornings, right? Yeah, wednesday morning or four in the morning. Yeah, it's great. I actually love it dude And then I do I do my raids tuesday nights, right? And that's that's you know, we still do our weekly raids and stacy still Plays classic mainly and and you've been doing some valheim and stuff. You're actually you're doing as an enriches valheim tournament. Is that right? Yeah, and rich told me that uh, he's trying to get me the tree says stacy If you do my tournament every time you get a kill, I'm going to gift you 20 subs and I was like, okay I'm going to get zero subs Tips tips now we know why rich is broke. So that between that and pokemon cards But yeah, no, it's uh, it's it's uh, it's been a good time We're we're still like very interested in classic and stuff and uh, sometimes we might dip into some other things and uh, I think for pre patch For pre patch, uh, we're all going to be on board and tips tips doesn't stream as much lately because Tips has been doing so much work behind the scenes for the org, right? That's kind of like his his main thing now and um, Just like rich right speaking of rich like that is that is kind of like their their top priority is um Doing doing work for the org as opposed to as opposed to stream type stuff. So That's why you haven't seen tips is around as much lately. But um I think that uh, I think that come pre patch We are all gonna be all over it and even beta right speaking about how much we we like the beta and uh, how fun the classic beta was for us and uh, The big meme is like streamer beta and this and that and it's like, yeah, like that's that's gonna happen, right? You're gonna see uh People right outside of the section even probably get access to beta But there's gonna be a lot of a lot of people and buying volume by numbers. You're gonna get a lot of people who um Well, yeah, I mean are gonna get it more than streamers, right? There's a bit of an exposure bias, right? So I'll tell you on the classic beta. It's like, I don't know Maybe like one or two percent of the people playing or streamers. Everyone else was normal people that got invited Yeah, it's Incidentally the only people you saw playing the beta were streamers because they're they're the people streaming, right? Who else are gonna watch this room? So like there's a good chance you guys get in the beta maybe Yeah, you're just a random guy. Yeah, and something you should do by the way is for uh, You can actually go to the battle net website and there's like a opt-in for testing so In my opinion, you should do that for uh, classic ptr. You should do that for wow retail ptr, right? Pretty much anything. I would just opt in so you have a chance to get in and uh, I think burning crusade beta is gonna be amazing I think pre-patch so we talked about the specific meta of Level 30 classic wow in the beta and why that was so fun I don't think we're gonna get that as much in the TBC beta But you know when we are gonna get that is we are gonna get that in the tbc pre-patch Because if you look back on it back in the day, nobody really thought of that was our first ever pre-patch Nobody really tried to build anything around the uh, the meta of pre-patch and basically doing what is essentially a project 60 Like a stream event, right a project 60 in burning crusade, but that's what pre-patch is It's going to be level 70 Talents it's going to be burning crusade talents burning crusade mechanics everything Put at level 60 and that is going to be so much fun Which means if you're a prop paladin you can go in tank next ramus. You have a taunt now You have a taunt right take less damage A little more health boomkins are better shadow priests are better In the actual pre-patch back in the day There was a month of level 60 arena where you had people queuing arena you queuing skirmishes At level 60 doing doing tbc arena and it was like it was it was insane, right? So if they do it the same way they did back in the day, oh, it's going to be so cool to queue arena level 60 It's going to be awesome. It's it's going to be absolutely amazing. I think Waters like you said us man, just like the beta uncharted waters the meta is going to be completely in flux Who knows, you know from from pve to pvp. Who knows what's the best? You know, we'll definitely be putting on some cool, uh, some cool pvp tournaments So it's going to be really fun. I I am so stoked for that like Literally like I'm excited for burning crusade But pre-patch like almost the same level because it's going to be so short live that doesn't really have time to get boring I think it's going to be a period where we look back on it like very very fondly for sure Yeah, I I'm very very excited for pre-patch and and uh, those of you guys who watch my stream regularly regularly you kind of know like my stream is kind of um Changed a little bit to to be a little bit more variety focused But uh, I'm always going to be anytime. There's like something going on and wow and Especially classic. I'm always going to be interested and I'll be playing it, right? so anytime there's a new patch or uh, any sort of new content right like I have Dude, I thought about this the other day I think I have about 500 days of played time in vanilla. Wow playing a red paladin Holy counting counting the day Retail counting private server in counting this I have about 500 days played Which is uh, I have no life So, uh, yeah, I have a I have a whole lot of time played in vanilla. Wow But at a certain point like it is time to move on right we talked about a fresh classic and stuff like that and Uh, for me at this point, I think I'm done right. I don't I don't expect I'm going to copy my character over And uh, this is a good segue into actually burning crusade and and what we what we know about burning crusade so far But they are going to be making a Uh, they're going to be making a vanilla forever server classic forever What are they calling it classic era servers is what they're calling it where it's uh, it's vanilla forever So, uh, you have the opportunity either transfer for free your character from classic wow to like a carbon copy Of whatever server you play on let's say it's white main or fair banks or fair lina or whatever it is It's like a carbon copy of that server is going to exist like out in the world. It's going to float out here Uh, you can either transfer that Character to that server or you can copy it over and then you can continue to play burning crusade with that same character And we don't know what the cost is for that copy. I don't think and you know what they said on those classic era servers With this recent poll that or survey that they sent out They said maybe on these servers where they're they're toying with the idea of making uh, Additional changes or rebalancing or additional content on those classic era servers. So Yeah, I kind of think they're I think probably in a couple months They're probably going to drop the bombshell that hey on these classic era servers We might you know do some changes which would kind of incentivize people to pay for the further for the clone, right? Yeah, I think uh, I think it's going to be really interesting to see how that all pans out because I I do think they need to do it fresh I think if they don't do fresh people are going to go back to private servers I don't think private servers will be quite what they were But there are going to be a lot of people who still want that fresh classic experience and uh How I feel about these classic era servers I think these classic era servers are not going to last very long as far as like a single server population goes And if they do classic era servers, you're probably going to have to do Uh, some retail style Uh, sharding of the servers where you're going to be seeing people run around with like, you know As fan fairlina and as fan Herod or whatever the heck, right? Yeah I I think it's a big mistake to maintain like both a classic era fairlina and a classic tbc fairlina Um, I think it's best to just take all of these players and put them on like two or three mega classic era servers and Have just a couple communities like that And I understand that there's the name issue where you might lose the name stay safe or whatever But uh, like I think that's probably just what what has to happen for classic era Well, and the issue with that I think would be The name the name thing is one People feel like they lose community a lot of times whenever, uh, whenever they have to go through a server merge or um Anything of the sort too I don't know how they would do it with like having people cross Like being guilds cross server. They probably still can't do that because they don't do that in retail Uh, I don't know exactly the best way to handle that but based on what they said at blizzcon I think generally that community is going to be gone anyway because most people are going to move on to tbc And I would speculate most people are not going to clone their character So if you stay on classic era or you clone your character to classic era you have it both ways You're probably not going to be able to play with most of your current vanilla friends Or most of your vanilla guild. So yeah, so who knows what's going to happen It's going to be it's going to be really really interesting to see I think uh I think I think it is a good choice for them to do that But I do think after burning crusade comes out maybe like a month or so after burning crusade comes out They should plan on doing a fresh classic as well So To give people that opportunity to play fresh I don't think it's a good idea to do fresh right before burning crusade because I think if they do a fresh and then burning crusade Everybody's going to quit and then go play burning crusade and then it's going to kill those servers and It's going to be a whole thing So like Sorry, go ahead and he has a bit of a content drought Uh, and then that's when they launch fresh classic servers with hopefully some small improvements Potentially, but a slightly more buffed raids the spell batching fix Hopefully the avi warsong gulch honor fix happens from the start instead of later on There's a bunch of small things they could improve that would make The classic experience fun That's when I'm kind of I feel like I'm done. I feel like I I beat the game and you know that unfinished business from 17 years ago now I feel like that's behind me But if they did make some some small tweaks that they did buff raids that they did Get rid of spell batching if they did you know change the honor system potentially some classic plus content I might consider trying it one more time and kind of seeing how I would all go down in the new format, but Yeah, I look I think I think burning crusade though is the future. I think this classic project has expanded so much Uh, I remember jay allen brack said when he first announced classic that they didn't want to maintain two different versions of the game I think that's just completely flown out of the window now I think I think I'm in a month in dude when they realize holy crap. There's so many people playing this Exactly. So I think the possibilities for like the classic projects are endless You're gonna get bc. You're gonna get wrath most likely I I don't even think it's gonna stop there. I originally thought when we used to talk about on class cast that they'll just end with the original trilogy I I don't think that philosophy holds up anymore I think they'll just keep going until players don't want it anymore They might make some changes Release all these servers seasonally. It might turn into a season thing I don't know, but I feel like we're at the very beginning like it feels like we're at the end of vanilla But I think we're at the very beginning of what like world of warcraft classic versions are going to become Yeah, I can't wait for classic shadowlands. It's gonna be amazing. Oh, yeah I'm no like if we just want to keep the topic on vanilla There's a lot of really cool things that could do like obviously we've talked about the changes We like to see like nerf dungeon xp or world buffs or whatever whatever whatever, right? But also, yeah, I think it'd be super fun to have in the future classic speed release servers We're rather than lasting a year and a half of a content timeline Maybe it's eight months And so you don't have as long to farm molten core for blackling there comes out You don't have as long to farm bwl before aq comes out, which means it makes the raids harder Um, and there's more like urgency with it Um, I think that having hardcore servers Hardcore is always popular in every game ever, right?  You put it into your chest and then just yeah, I think that'd be great But uh, no, no, you're right. You're right. Like I think like anything I think I think anything, uh Anything that's like, uh Kind of people pushing themselves and trying to push the limits of the game. Just like you said, I think is is Really, uh, really really good. So, uh, I thought it was great the, um It's funny. There's actually so much to talk about with classic. We wanted to move on and talk more about burning crusade Uh, we we've stuck on classic a while, uh, but we we are going to wrap it up here in a second Um, and move on to more burning crusade talk and kind of the the introductory for I guess the rest of class cast season two um I think for me Tips I I'm very much in your boat. I feel like I've I've at this point. I've done everything I've checked all the boxes. Um, there's a few like little minor things That that I still would like to do like I would try and like to Tank in naks or tank in aq 40 with my paladin, but I've tanked bwl. I've tanked mc. I've tanked zg I've I've I've done all the raids. I did all the raids on private servers as well Uh, I've raid led. I've I've guild led. I've scarab lowered grand marshal There's like a few pieces of gear, right? There's there's actually a lot of gear that I don't have yet But that's that's not really like an accomplishment. That's kind of like rng and then waiting your turn to get certain stuff um But as far as like the things that I feel like I can accomplish I I feel like I've done it all So I'm very much in the same boat as you tips So I gotta say like I'll tell you, you know, I didn't really go into classic to kill kel'thuzad like I went into classic to kind of For me, it's about the interactions and the drama and you know, the the inter-gild You know interactions So for me like I played vanilla back in the day I spent like six years or seven years playing vanilla private servers That's that that's what makes vanilla. Wow always fun for me Is the interactions and what happened which guild did this and so, you know, like, you know I'm kind of burned out on vanilla at this point after playing 12 hours a day every day for the last year and a half But it's like, you know, if they do classic fresh a year from now Hell yeah, I'd probably I would play it differently, right then I played it this time But oh, yeah, like I would I would do it again I don't know if I would play as much if I would know life is hard, but oh, yeah, I'd play it 100% Yeah, and I'm very excited for tbc for me for me would all come down to to how they would like if they did it differently if they did the same thing I wouldn't do it again because Just the whole like they they made the game so much harder to play Uh, it's weird. They made the game harder to play while being an easy game Then it needed to be And that's why that's why I think like the way they approach it on on like nostalgia's lights Hope like all the old pride like that that core of private server was so much better Um, yeah, we talked about all that all that right like we talked about the no changes thing at the beginning and Uh, like I know like I still have videos on my channel and me talking about why like certain changes are needed Right to account for the times and whatnot But like tip said when we're having the conversation initially and people are talking about transmog and adding in demon hunters and pandas and this It's like hold on. Hold on. No Now you're changing the game completely like that's not that's not classic. Wow Right, but a lot of the stuff that's under the hood behind the scenes The the average player doesn't even know how this stuff works They don't even they don't even know right I know tons of people who played vanilla one for the first time on private servers Then they'd never played before like, you know, people who are younger or uh, even now in classic Wow, I don't know what your guys experience is but most of the people I know that play classic are like early 20s Late teens like I know a few few people that are a little bit older, right? Like, you know We're 29 and we're keeled over all the time But there's uh, there's a lot of people that are younger and people people think that like it's mostly an older audience so I uh, I I've definitely run into my fair share of boomers. I'll put it that way But I do agree with you. I think my biggest takeaway from classic Is how timeless the experience actually is and we knew this going into it because we played on the private servers and stuff like that But it was something that you kind of wanted validation for like is this something that's true, too Yeah, like maybe I'm just I really enjoy it. Maybe it's just I'm freaking crazy But you're seeing it success and it's continued success and seeing it endure You know, even through retail wow content and retail wild patches and Obviously dropped off from its original player base. It was so hyped at the start It's going to drop off and out of inevitably But seeing the game still kind of hold resilient over this past year and a half It shows you the game itself is just very well made There are very few games like it on the market that can attract that level of an audience And you know the design principles that that you know made it are are still hold up today And I think the game does still hold up Um, it's just a good game. It's structured in a way. That's a nice medium between theme park and kind of sandboxy stuff Um, the server community is there. It's unique. It's got its place in the market and Uh, I think personally I believe it's it's been a big reason as to why we've seen a lot of other mmo's get announced recently Right announced that they are working on an mmo Um, chris medzin. He's not working on an mmo, but he Accredited classics launch as a big reason as to why he's launching his new project I think it's been inspiring people all over the industry and I think four or five six years from now We're gonna start to see how that inspiration, you know, uh brings forward new games, hopefully Yeah, I I actually 100% agree and um, I mean there's there's a number of stuff coming out right new world Ashes of creation Rides and like you said The the the big one that I'm excited for is actually ashes I don't I don't really get excited for new mmo's But ashes has made a very specific concentrated effort and like saying like yeah, like we want a more old school style of mmo Uh, that kind of fits in modern day. And I think that's what a lot of mmo players want They want like the kind of they want the grind to mean something And I think classic wow has that in a lot of ways But it just it doesn't really account for the times quite as much Much better than a lot of mmo's from the previous era like I played dark age of camo logged in recently It doesn't hold up the way that uh, it definitely doesn't hold up the way that uh Wow or something does or ever quest wouldn't hold up the same way uh But I do think that a lot of those systems are really good to draw from and to learn from and and hopefully ashes can do that A new world is more of like a minecraft type game gathering and stuff. I don't know how much I'm into the stuff like that Um, it is definitely true. You know mmo's are sort of In a sorry state. I don't think there's been a big successful mmo that has stuck around with an active player base since like 2014, which was um Uh, what's what's what's called the the the asian mmo? Um, bdo Bdo bdo. Yeah, right Um, and I was like 2014. Well, there's bdo Final fantasy 14 is doing really well now after having kind of a bad launch. That's a bit older though, right? I think that's also 2013 or something. That's a little bit older. What when did vile vines 14 come out chat? Do you guys know? Uh, 2010. Yeah, and then um 2010 and then bless online two years ago, which is now amazing But yeah, like what I was going to say the truth is like the biggest mmo on the planet right now Is a re-release of one that came out 16 years ago. Like and as much as I love vanilla and I love tbc. It's like Come on like it'd be great to have some new stuff. Yeah, that'd be great You know what somebody from blizzard told me this real quick just to mention on that point. Um So So I was told two different things one was at the beginning of this was that twitch con Somebody from blizzard came up to me and told me he was like dude. What happened was this was like where their expectation was They had like they had like a range Classic was you know, they thought it was going to be here if they were it was here. They were going to be really happy And if they were here, it's like, okay, that's probably realistic and then worst case scenario was right here It went from here to completely ripping the lid off of any expectation they have And you saw that with them originally talking about four servers and then all of a sudden it was How many total servers are there in classic now? There there's over 20 they ended up having way more servers for 20 I mean, I think if you're talking about worldwide At least over a hundred between china and west like It's insane It's so much bigger than they expected and I was told so what one do you think was the worst part of classic? For me it was like the end of phase one. There was like a one month period right before bw all launched Which I was like there was nothing to do or sorry. I into phase into phase two Uh where there was like absolutely nothing to do Are we talking personally or like probably lowest count for the game or like least successful portion of the game? Uh, personally overall personally Yeah, I don't know Park Valley ranking was pretty bad. Yeah But that was that was also during that time, right? That was like that one month right before bw all came out I think they just like right before that was whenever they switched to having they nerfed it So worst song was a little bit better But uh for like highest efficiency I think overall I think the end I think phase five went on way too long. I think aq was like a flop I think a lot of people didn't like it. Um, and I think like the end of phase five was Really dead really dead for a lot of people. Yeah Yeah, I think phase five I think max came out at about the right time. It could have come out a tiny bit sooner, but Um It came out at about the right time now the difference between when shadowlands launched and when max came out That's that's all another story and that's that's a whole separate conversation A lot of people were really upset about that. Um I think that uh For me that was kind of like the probably the most dead period and somebody told me that um Even at that point like as far as like their logs and like seeing how many people are rating and actively doing stuff Uh, like like high-end content and they keep track of all the stats Somebody said there were still more people playing classic than right after the 8.3 patch released Which is that's that's insane because it's a dead port of classic and Uh, it's like a dead period of classic, but it's right after uh, the last content patch of bfa But that's kind of like bfa. I'll tell you this too, which is insane and this is not end all be all This is you know one piece of the puzzle, but if you go to you can go there right now You guys they're watching go to uh, google trends and you can search up google search traffic on youtube and google uh for shadowlands and for world of work of classic plug in the keywords and Classic search interest on google and youtube passed shadowlands after like two months of shadowlands after two months of shadowlands release It's crazy. That's that's actually shocking to me. That's really classic wow has even at classics lowest it has A lot of desire and very strong staying power. Yeah I do like shadowlands a lot by the way I think I think a lot of people think that that those of us who are classic guys are Like we don't like retell at all like for me, uh, like how I hit I had 2400 and threes six seven weeks ago eight weeks ago like I uh, but I only pvp like I don't really like doing a lot of the other Endgame content and retail. Uh, I just like the pvp and and all that stuff. So like I hit 2400 I was the number one geared paladin on kelthus odd. I was number 15 overall like my item level was number 15th on the server and But but I just for me Uh, like I got all the gear and I want to get my glad wins now I just haven't gotten a chance to play because again, you guys know like I do gtrp I do the variety. It's mario month and I've barely played mario I have major I have a whole lot of other stuff that I do on my stream as opposed to just wow. So, um Uh, I just really haven't had the time to do it but um But yeah, no, I think that uh I think that That's kind of like a common misconception that people people play one or the other But I do think a lot of people play both so Yeah Yeah, it's been it's been really really good. Yeah, I'm I'm curious how many people actively play both I don't know. I don't know the crossover is I it's I had a goal going to shadowlands. I was like, okay I'm gonna try to clear the heroic raid every raid here of shadowlands. I I'm really want to enjoy this and It's so weird and I've heard this other from other people as well It's like shadowlands. I think for a retail expansion is really good as far as retail I think it's it's really good for retail players but man like I personally I think at this point I've accepted like you know retails just not for me personally and that's fine Like not everyone has to like every game and I'm not even gonna shit on shadowlands. I think it's good for what it is But it's just not for me. It's the best I the problem is I compare it to fried chicken So like fried chicken is good But ultimately it has a cap on what it and on how good it can be like the best fried chicken for example in the world Just it will not eclipse the best pizza because pizza has a Good good thing like ceiling, you know more in my opinion Plans is it's like it's at the peak. It's like the best fried chicken out there But you know the ceiling is just not hot enough for that type of game There's no community The at the end of the looking for dungeon systems the automation the the sharding the lack of a of an open world That's like actually like has content in it Um Seeing each other all that stuff all the things we love about classes that don't exist in shadowlands You know differentiates the game a lot, but I think there's two different games. Yeah at this point They're totally different. Um But classic is pizza in this case, of course. Yeah. Yeah, like I'm always gonna be more of a classic guy just uh I just I just don't throw everything in retail yet because I I do like arenas now Maybe that's just gonna change in burning crusade Right when now that we have arenas and stuff because I that's always been my favorite thing is arenas And maybe that's why I'm still like attached to retail in that regard as I like doing the arenas, but um It's going to be so much fun. And again, like let's let's uh, so let's go into tbc a little bit, right? Uh, and kind of what we know so far because we we have gone on a lot for we're just excited, dude We're happy to be back. It's fun. We're kind of reminiscing a little bit about classic. Um But let's move on to to tbc and really what the rest of this series is going to be here in like season two and um What blizzard has very clearly learned Let's go ahead and start this off is let's let's talk about the fact that they're going with pre-nerf raid encounters Because that was a I think a massive issue in classic the fact that everything was just so overwhelmingly easy and Yeah, it's going to be easier than then, you know It's going to be easier than retail right because retail is you know, it's just a newer game whatever sure That's fine. We we know everything. They don't know all the strategies and stuff yet. That's fine I get it But whenever you're making your character stronger and you're making the raids weaker You're moving the goalpost in two separate directions and it's it's so bad for the game like uh, I thought classic was uh It was just weird, right like how uh How hard people would push sometimes for something that is just seemingly like yeah Like you don't even have to do that, right? But you you kind of you don't you don't want to do that But you kind of have to do if other people are doing it you have to do that because you have to pull your own weight and you have to like earn your spot in the the guild and get your Get your gear and earn the right to get stuff and it turns into a whole thing, right? Uh, but it's definitely something that's not um It's not as big of a deal I'll tell you this like tbc has downsides. I'm not a fan of flying mountains as as one example But I think for the average vanilla player right now. I feel like if you've never played tbc Tbc is almost a perfect successor to vanilla. Well like anything that you are It feels kind of missing from vanilla as far as like, oh man, I wish raids are a little bit harder I wish gold. I wish the gold requirement to raid wasn't so high. I wish Class balance was a bit better. I wish there was more viability for me as a shadow priest Or a boom. Can I or a rat paladin? I wish there was a better pvp system Tbc delivers delivers delivers on all that stuff And I like tbc feels very very satisfying after after a year and a half of grinding vanilla Yeah, and that's kind of Like the developers at the time For them to have the awareness of a lot of the issues that plagued original vanilla towards the end And fixed the vast majority of them they introduced some new ones But they fixed the vast majority of them And I'm very excited like my personal experience with tbc vanilla came out when I was a freshman in high school By the time vanilla ended I was a junior applying for colleges trying to uh up that gpa a little bit Um, I didn't experience very much of tbc. I Played tbc the last couple of months before wrath the lich king launched And in terms of private servers, you know for those that that are kind of in that world We had so many projects that were so disappointing that just never came to fruition You know corecraft play tbc the server, etc Like so I never really, you know, there was things like war main and stuff like that But those always there hasn't really been a really good one Yeah, there hasn't really been a really good until relatively recently But just because we've been so busy and stuff never got really a chance to play those ones Yeah, we can't stream it either, right? It is the mca situation. That's like our whole story, right? See exactly no one should was blizzard actually just a week ago sent out a bunch of dmca's to tbc private server streamers So you should now stream private servers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's it. Yeah I'm really excited for tbc like I a lot of it is going to be new for me like uh, at least, you know I like for the content at the time like I don't know what a free nerf Sunwell looks like because I never did sun well when it was relevant, you know So, uh, that's I'm very excited for that and uh, I've heard just from talking to some friends that that have played a lot of tbc private servers I've heard that maybe the pre nerf isn't quite enough. Maybe they need to Add a little bit of buffs on top of that to make it a little bit more challenging, but Regardless, I think blizzard taking that step is huge and I think it shows Their paradigm of thought is we want to make the classic experiences as faithful But also as good as possible And I think that's like just them crossing that barrier is so significant Because I think it just means that the support for the classic projects having has increased And I think now as we move forward to like classic wrath and perhaps redoing classic vanilla, etc I think it means that when we get these new classic versions of the game They're hopefully going to be as good as they can possibly be and adjusted for the times Yeah, I uh, I think so too and and uh, like you said, they've clearly learned right with the the uh, desire to go pre nerf they will still be doing end game 2.4 talents and spells and class balance and all that stuff and uh, that's something that I think is is good I do think that's that's a good idea. They just have to account for everything else. Uh, not being that way I want to say the the alternative to running 2.4.3 talents and spells is like every month or every Month and a half whatever is people logging in and their talentry is being different. Yeah, spell coefficients being different. So it's like Yeah, if you want to be perfectly faithful to how it was, yeah, you would make the talentry changes every patch or whatever It's like, but is that really Good in in today's climate. Yeah, probably not. I don't know Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea. I think that um Now you could make the same argument about something else that I do disagree with or I mean, they didn't mention, right? but um You know with them constantly changing something and then you have to relearn or whatever Uh, but I do think relearning class mechanics or your talents and stuff like that is very different than having to Have a little bit weaker gear And I do think that they're still probably not going to do progressive monetization Which I think is actually a mistake. It's not as big of an issue as it is in classic. Classic had way more patches way more changes in gear Uh, a massive difference in power creep from the beginning in the end But there is some of that in burning crusade and a lot of the raid gear ended up getting Upgraded even I think it was in 2.1, right? It was almost right away. Like some stuff got upgraded And if you guys remember, uh I remember a lot of heroic gear being better than kerosene gear Like individual pieces because of itemization or whatever and having dungeon gear And badge gear as well having dungeon gear that was competitive with raid gear I think is a good thing Because it makes you want to play the entirety of the game in order to get all the best gear that you can And the same thing goes for pvp gear as well so like I think in in general a good design philosophy to have for the game is for your character to be as well geared and as powerful and as um Decorated as possible They would have to do every single part of the game which is something that retail I don't think does particularly well right now But in classic wow you see it a little bit, but especially in burning crusade you see it a lot There's a way better dungeon gear from people doing heroics. There's badge gear like you mentioned There's uh good raid gear and then also reputation gear. There's raid gear. There's profession gear and then of course pvp gear Like simply put the player progression system in tbc between profession gear badge gear raid gear dungeon gear Heroic dungeon gear reputation gear pvp gear bg gear arena gear. It all Molds together. It's so satisfying. I'm gonna say and I I kind of like vanilla wow Slightly more than tbc, but I gotta like I love tbc still I got to say this there in my opinion is no more fun Like two or three month period and wow's history ever then the first two or three months of tbc It is so insanely fun progressing your character of really getting your reputations and oh man, it's so fun it is really really fun and uh I like for me like i'm a burning crusade guy like that's whenever I Like uh, I I peaked back in the day. I peaked in high school right and it was during burning crusade So that's like I was I was highly rated in arenas and I was you know the rep hallowing guy and I was getting my world buffs and What I my I've logged into wow and world buffs just went off. That's what that sound was. Yeah. Grats. Thank you guys. Okay um So yeah, that's basically uh, that's basically what I was all about I was always all about burning crusade and um I'm very uh, I'm very very excited about burning crusade coming for sure and and With them doing the itemization This way some people were saying retail does do that retail doesn't do exactly what I'm talking about what I'm talking about is You you get the best from doing everything not the best Not being able to be the best doing one thing That's what I'm talking about whereas in retail like like I was like I said like like with my character When my character's item level being super high I only did pvp and my character was number one palin on the server. I didn't rate at all I didn't do lfr. I didn't do normal. I didn't do well actually to do normal and I think I did No, no, I think it just did normal But I didn't even do the whole raid Didn't do didn't do rug didn't do mythic and my character was like the most geared guy on uh, retail Right, and that's just how it was. I I pre-made group finder in my way to 2300 and then after that I uh group of people that I like I played with Bajira a little bit at the end and on all that but um And I just I just got good rng, you know So and that's how it works because I got I had good chess and whatnot But my point is is that uh, I think burning crusade does do it really well and uh Yeah, I saw someone have this concern in chat a minute ago. I want to say Despite what I just mentioned, uh, you can be a very very successful pvpere Like you don't have to pvp to be a top pvpere in arena And you don't have like you don't have to have arena gear to be a top pve or to parse So it's not like in vanilla, right? If you want to do You know top and black when they are speed runs or any speed runs You don't have to get ranked 14, right? You know what I mean? That's kind of how it is in vanilla that crossover isn't really there And until you get to like war glaives and seasons or in in black temple, but that's stupid anyway, so yeah um I do think it's good like sometimes people would go with like pvp armor and stuff and have high stamina resilience Then do like some pve trinkets for like burst damage or whatever um I do like how gear I do like how gear is itemized. I think it's I think it's uh, Really good for the most part not a huge fan of resilience in general like as a stat. I didn't like it but maybe it was necessary at the time and I can't I can't remember it like in in hindsight like how uh, How big of an impact that it maybe wouldn't have made if there was no no resilience Well, I'll tell you what like go go q a bg right now And see what damage people are doing and you'll understand why they added resilience And that's kind of what I'm thinking it's like maybe that was it But they also you know what else they did was they changed the value of itemization points to uh, Or they changed the value of stamina and itemization points to make uh That's why there was so much more stamina on gear and burning crusade Is because I think they made it like One and a half times like what a strength would be or intellect or something like that so who knows Uh, but I think that's a really good point. That's kind of why I'm thinking that maybe it was like that we did talk about classic era servers already and um We we didn't talk about and I think this kind of goes without saying But people do still want to hear it is they have talked about the um They they've talked about they're not necessarily planning on stopping at burning crusade They're you know, they're they're open to continuing on after that Uh, rathalich king, whatever And I think that for me, I will probably stop I don't know. I'm gonna actually stop after wrath. I might stop before wrath I have no idea Because back of the day, that's kind of whenever I got bored. I quit at the beginning of wrath And uh, I came back at the very end And that was kind of like the point in time whenever I was kind of like drifting away from wow And kind of like what happened to tips like for me, like I was it was my senior high school And I was doing the football thing and uh, I just kind of like stepped away from from wow in general for a while like I played league of legends mostly right after Cataclysm came out and uh I do regret not playing wrath if I could go back in time. I wish I could play wrath but um So that is one reason why like I'm I'm looking forward to playing wrath and kind of applying like what I know now and being able to play the game that I do now um To that game But rathal you like pvp. I think you'll enjoy it But wrath needs a lot of changes and that's why I'm very happy with pvc Because hopefully that's just the beginning of how far they're willing to push the button Like wow e from top down needs buffs across the board from the normal dungeons to the heroic Dungeons to the raids to the heroic raids like You think it was just way too easy pve Way too easy. I mean Nax ramus and wrath In my opinion is easier than molten core in classic. That's what everybody said Everybody said they like it was literally within like 12 hours of people hitting max level People were clearing naks. It was like ridiculous and wrath Yes, it is so easy and anyone that's played on a wrath bribe server recently can attest to this um on most wrath private servers Nowadays they buff the content not by five not by 10 by over 50 percent And they add new mechanics so 50 boss damage boss health Etc and they add new mechanics to challenge you because Wrath was like it was at the transition point before wow came like fully into the modern era And content really started to scale up It kind of still was clinging a little bit to like the original mechanics of old So it just in terms of pve content It has not aged well at all like they really need to buff it But in terms of class design and pvp wrath has is really good like real I think uh Oh go ahead. Sorry. I thought you're done. No Well, what I was going to say is I think one reason that they probably wanted to make They probably didn't make naks easy on purpose because they're like it's the intro raid one But also like they worked really hard on it and they were like this thing was this amazing thing in classic We want more people to experience it and see it and uh I think that's probably why they made it easy But then they ended up just like way overshooting it and making it way too easy because I do remember hearing that too That people cleared naks like right away. It was like far and away like the fastest of first raid has ever been cleared um I think in any in any expansion actually right because it wasn't wasn't cataclysm the opposite It was too hard at the beginning because they probably learned from that and they probably made everything too hard to overcompensate and they're like wait a second so That's exactly what happened. So like if you look at it like as a pendulum And this is how ghost crawl described in this post. I remember Like the pendulum with wrath was like just swung to like completely easy mode casualized the game You know cast a wide net on this new audience that had been introduced to wow and online gaming But they just casualized the whole experience And then they realized by the end for the first time I think the last quarter before it cataloged the subs either Peaked and they like they stagnated or they might have dropped a little bit. I can't remember Um, but then so they swung in the completely different direction and cataclysm for its time Tier 11 was like really challenging. Like it was probably the hardest first tier of any expansion until shadowlands. I think uh Uh, rate whatever it's called the the raid today No, it's the raid in shadowlands called The castle and athria castle and athria. I think castle and athria today Was probably is probably the hardest ever for the first raid of an expansion But at that point it was it was kata and they nerfed everything and from there anyway Yeah, I uh, I want to know a really hot nuclear spicy hot take Yeah, I think the hardest raid In vanilla wow and classic well when you're wearing that raid's pre-biss Is molten core. I think molten core and molten core pre-biss is harder than nax in nax pre-biss You think so? Like if okay, this is say molten core in full dungeon blues is harder than nax in full acu 40 Uh, best year. What what do you talk? We cleared we cleared molten core stay safe You and I we cleared molten core at like like we had people in the raid that were like level 55 56 Yeah, I for me. I think it was like some seven hour raids, dude They were they were okay. So okay. I see what you're saying. You're saying You're saying that the raids Compared to like the top end like it the raids took much longer Like originally like mc took way longer than a first clear of nax is what you're talking about I okay, I kind of I understand what you're saying. I understand your argument. I I disagree I I think I think nax is like the best the perfect difficulty for how hard it should have been going into That patch I I disagree but I actually do understand what you're saying because the argument correct me if I'm wrong that you're making is Basically whenever you did that first clear of mc. It was much more difficult than your first clear of nax having everything going in Yeah, yeah, exactly Okay, yeah nax Like like I said like doing molten core with your full, you know pre-molten core Dungeon biscuit, right? I think molten core is harder in that environment than naxes in full aq 40 bits Which is your nax pre-biscuit, right? I think I think the difference is I think For me, I think I think nax nax is harder and it's a lot better and all this stuff but I think the difference comes from something that we touched on early on which was uh, the preparation and how much it costs to do nax, right and I think that In molten core you have people that yeah It costs more to do nax and all this stuff that can cause some difficulty there and just like having your stuff But uh, I think in molten core a lot of people didn't like oh, I don't have my fire protection I don't have this. Oh, I don't I gotta go douse, right? And you gotta have people go run back and forth to douse and that takes some time um, that's what I think the difference is because uh While while I do think it like almost costs too much to raid nax now. I think that um I I I think that it mostly comes down to that like it's extraneous things and it's not necessarily gear Well, here's another question like you see people in twitch chat or whatever pipe up and say, oh man like These rays are too easy. They should be way harder. Let me ask you this like Do you think people are playing classical out to have hard raids or they have to progress for weeks or months? or Do you think people kind of like easy raids in vanilla? Where you can just go in and like to have a beer while you're raiding and raid with one hand and Should post with your boys and in discord mid raid. It's kind of like zone out and have fun I think the majority of classic players Like if they want to have hard raid the go play shadowlands. Yeah, I think you play vanilla, you know, yeah, it's true I think it's a really good I completely agree with you. Uh, I actually think that making raids ultra hard Takes away so much from mmo's like think about retail Well, because the raids the mythic raids of the highest and are so difficult It puts a tremendous burden on the class designers to make sure everything is balanced. Yeah, it all Is a really good point Yeah, like it makes it so you cannot have out of you know flavor of them on specs because You know, you just won't be able to clear the raids because they're tuned so high So I definitely agree that having raids not be super insanely hard Uh, is a good thing But I do think it's a spectrum. I think if we were to look at it like from classic I do think molten core bwl are a little bit too easy What I would have liked to see or maybe in future classic is The degree of difficulty of molten core be kind of closer to the degree of difficulty of aq And things scaled from there. So like let's say molten core is like a three right now bwl is like a five aq is like a seven x is a 10 like throwing out our members Like it would be cool molten core started off like as a seven Or you know seven and a half or whatever something like that and then they all scale proportionately upwards It's I think it's it's so frustrating for a lot of people because when we say difficulty like that a lot of the difficulty with these raids in Classic vanilla wow is whether or not you have your world buffs and whether or not you're spending a thousand gold a weekend consumes Right. So it's like what is what really is hard, you know Yeah, it's like yeah, saffron is kind of easy if you're everyone's fully consumed spamming consumes and you still have your world buffs Otherwise like yeah saffron is kind of annoying for a lot of guilds, you know, yeah, I mean, uh, like we uh I mean like for for the longest time we would go and try and rebuff for saffron Just like not full but like we would go get an xia and drop just drop ahead in the heart, right? And uh that that helped majorly for saffron and kt um I think that there's a line. I I I agree with you. I think that Classic isn't a lot of people playing classic don't want to do this like super hard raids They want to they want to hang out with people and they want to have a good time and and it's it's it's very much about community, right? I think that with I um I think that with wow classic what they probably should have done is they probably should have made it like 10 to 20 percent harder In the raids leading up to naks. I think naks is perfect But I think pretty much every other raid is uh just a little bit too easy I think I think it doesn't need to be hard It just needs to be more than just a complete like face roll cake walk um Like people talk about how you don't need to move at all or there's no mechanics I mean that's that's not necessarily a case But what does happen is because our gear is so good even the pre raid gear is much stronger than it was back in the day We kind of we can just like straight up ignore some mechanics like you know, uh Golmag and mc is a good example where it's Most people don't even know the mechanics of golmag Because it like it's it's so tank and spank. You don't have to worry about your your stacks. You don't like Just move the dogs away. That's how most people think golmag works because it's our gear is so good We do so much damage, but it's not supposed to be like that You know Yeah, I think just a little bit more resistance to make it so Your brain has to be active and you've got to be aware and there's a small possibility of a wipe I think that's good But I I agree to stay safe without dragging it to the opposite direction of you know Make every raid like it's freaking, you know, mythic castle nathria No, I don't I don't think that's a good idea And I think that would actually hurt classic a lot specifically because You know, if you think that people are asking for a lot of warriors and rogues now That's just the high end guilds.   Uh, especially going into burning crusade There's uh, there's a lot of room for uh, these off specs, right? They get buffed so much especially in the utility aspect of it like for a rat paladin Um, we're like, you know, the the damage is still not going to be like a pure dps class in a lot of ways But it doesn't really matter because the overall rate damage is is affected very positively by it Um, let's go in, you know, again continue to talk about burning crusade a little bit I know tips you have you have a meeting to go to and uh, stay safe It's going to go stream later today and then and then I have my stuff that I want to do So we don't want to go too long for our first episode and there's going to be so much to talk about, right? Uh, but this this episode we kind of kind of have as a uh classic recap and then going into burning crusade a little bit um One thing that I think we can talk about is the level boost The the level 58 boost that they announced they said one per account you can have a level 58 boost and there's a lot of discussion about this Um, it's very much not classic Like a like a not a classic mindset to have boost and whatnot and uh, it's like seemingly throwing away the old world And the intent this is the important thing. I think the intent for them Is we want to have players who did not play classic get a chance to come in and play burning crusade and not feel behind Okay, um Then launch fresh tbc servers. I think it accomplishes that same goal. See you launch a fresh tbc I actually don't like fresh tbc for a number of reasons, but I know why people do want fresh tbc. So go ahead and and um You go ahead and expand on that tips for sure, so, um Basically, I think everyone that's progressed so far in classic should be able to take their characters and transfer To a tbc server and continue progressing on that character But I think you should have a very small But secure a number of fresh tbc servers. Let's say one or two just to be you know make it simple um For all the new players that are coming into tbc for the first time or for those that just really enjoyed the fresh experience And want to start you know want to play on a server where the economy isn't completely busted Those players have an opportunity to roll on this one, you know, or two fresh tbc servers It solves the issue of like, you know being behind For some people that didn't get to farm the hundreds of thousands of gold that some classic players have now They don't have to worry about that and for the players that just really like the the progression experience leveling out in the world Doing the quests dungeoning up feeling that you know 200 hour leveling journey they get to experience that again with other people So I think that would be cool. But uh, but obviously we're not getting that Well, and I think it feels Go ahead say it feels really weird during their little q&a where they introduced the 58 boost and stuff that little interview They had during blizzcon over the course of like 60 seconds. They go from talking about yeah We're gonna have a tbc pre patch and you can level your adrenaline You can level your blood elf if you're new to the game to get caught up So you're not left behind when the dark portal opens 60 seconds later And if you're new to the game, we're going to sell 58 boost like It was just very like What they should have done it said hey, listen, we're going to have a month long pre patch level your adrenaline level your blood elf XP is nerfed by 30. This is what this is actually what happens xp from 1 to 60 is nerfed by 30% We had new quest hubs a lot of quest rewards reward higher xp They should have sold the pre patch as the time to come back. It's easier to level There's blood elves and drenis to play with you get caught up with your friends Who like, you know It's so it's so annoying actually like at the end of tbc. They had the recruiter friend system Why not just add the recruiter friend system rather than just selling straight up xp boosts? I don't know man. Like it's just uh It just is not like logically stand. I think it's just a simple cast So here's I think it's really bad for the game too. I think what they need to do I don't like the idea of fresh because We've seen fresh private servers the the population imbalance is horrible It's so bad. Like 60 40 horde alliance 70 30 horde alliance. It's so bad And it's something that I think it's going to be a huge huge issue going into burning crusade if Uh, if you don't have like the desire to like oh, I want to keep playing my character that I've been working on I have like these accomplishments. I have a certain gear that's going to carry over all this stuff And I think if they just make some servers separately of that Uh, I just don't know if it's a good idea because I I'm not a huge like Whenever you'll say split the player base and stuff like that. I'm not a huge Like person who's like that, but I do think it's kind of um I think it kind of makes a weird experience and kind of that's a weird precedent To where you're going to end up having a bunch of different like shards and like fractures of it I think that uh A level 58 boost is the wrong decision And uh, but I do understand why they want to do it. I actually agree I think that having something Like that is going to bring a lot of people into the game that otherwise would not be into the game But a boost that starts you at level 58 And and you gotta you go into freaking hellfire peninsula and you're trying to run a ramparts group And then you have some some guy who you know, it's not his fault, but he just boosted and he hasn't played before Right, you get one per account He hasn't played before he's now I've got this level 58 Uh boosted warrior who's who's now tanking my ramparts at level 60 And he just doesn't know how to play his class yet and then I end up and I don't know that I have no idea I I have no idea. So that's why I think a boost is is is really really bad in that regard now What I think would work that would complete It would do their goal right it would do their goal of being able to get people into the game and Uh, not being too far behind or whatever Add an xp boost like you said, there's already the 30% decrease in xp that you need Add an xp boost they can they get a one time one character They pay for it a lot like the recruit a friend thing like you said, which I do think they should probably add into the game Anyway, there's probably add in recruit a friend anyway Um But something like that is fine and and it'll be a massive xp boost and yeah They can zoom through it But you have a whole month of prepatch Like uh that that recent endless tbc server just came out with like eight times xp I played for a day casually just like running around Um While I was off and I got I don't even know how many hours I played I just got level 30 like not even paying attention, right? It's it's it's very it doesn't need to be eight times xp But having a big boost like that will easily Give players enough time in a one to two month prepatch to be able to level and I and I think that'll be totally fine And it'll be way better than just starting at level 50. I think I think let's try it's 58. I think that's not a good idea Yeah, I think you know exciting the precedent in these classic versions of wow where you're telling people You can spend real-life money to Not it's I wouldn't call it pay to win But it's definitely pay to advance or pay to have success or pay to save time Like I think it's it's it's just a bad idea I I think it undermines the entire like sort of virtual hierarchy The lot of people play mmo's 4 in the first place I also Know for a fact that this is a very very profitable Investment for botters to make like it is super worth it for botters to buy 50 at boost and then do their Botting on the boost it's super profitable if you break it down and then it's also like, you know If I have a thousand gold I want to spend a bunch of money on new accounts and boosts By the way, I've heard people say in chat. It's a free boost. It is not a free boost It is one paid boost per account. They haven't said how much it costs but You know you can like You can spend a much money on boost and you can start pumping out cloth You can pump out primal mites You can pump like it is so easy to Exploit these boosts to make a lot of gold in game or to start up your botting operation, which I already know people are thinking of doing so I'm telling you but I don't think blizzard Frankly cares a whole lot because like it's open it like there are sub numbers for a while. We're gonna blow up Oh, yeah, oh, it's gonna make new accounts just for the boost Right, I mean there's gonna be so many people playing and people like oh I played on this server and in one expansion or sorry in classic and then and then now the new experience is coming I have friends on another server. I'll just throw my boost over there um Again, I think I think you Fix the potential problem of the things that I mentioned plus potential overpopulation of certain servers where Random joe schmo is playing the game for the first time He's like i'm just gonna go throw a character on there because i'm level 58 now and I don't have to level up or whatever Uh and and serve potential server issues where people are just like crammed into one area because Maybe that doesn't even matter that much because you have So many people at max level anyway, it's not gonna matter But uh like at that point like it's just like a fraction But my point is I just think the next people is just so much better I think I think it wakes me it makes way more sense. It gets there what they want to happen it makes that happen and Everybody's happy, right? I just saw someone in chat say that selling boosts is going to decrease gold buying. Okay, so you buy the boost your level 58 They've already said you don't have an epic mount. You have no gold. You have terrible dungeon gear with no enchants You don't have professions Everyone else has thousands of gold because they've been prepping and playing through vanilla wow You could not create a higher risk of gold buying demographic than someone who just bought a level 58 boost Like you have no skills in the game. You don't want to do you have no professions You have a terrible mount. You have terrible gear You just you literally just spent real life money to advance your character So that precedent is already in your brain a lot of these guys first thing you boost go by gold Like real gold buying is is a really really bad issue by the way. It's it's very prevalent but um And it's it's so prevalent to the point where if they introduce the wow token I think more like I think I honestly believe we are the vocal minority by the way against the boosts I think I agree the the vast majority of people are happy about it and they're excited And I I strongly believe that if a wow token was introduced in tbc The vast majority of people would would be excited or at the very least they would be just like they would hand away They're like, oh, it's not a big deal. Well, you know, I think what happened I think I think people would publicly condemn it and secretly be happy about it That's what I think would happen Because that that there is like a weird like it's it's it's not around as much But you guys know if you've been playing classic wow, and I didn't notice this as much on private But but as like the the wow classic community kind of grew specifically not necessarily the vanilla wow community and all this stuff There was like this weird sense of like high-roading and um It was very very strange and people will go and they will like publicly act a certain way or like the same thing happened with no changes right where people would talk about this stuff but then like they would feel like pressured or bullied into saying certain things because That is just you know what they felt like they had to do and uh, I don't think that's right You know like they felt like because of public opinion. They had to they had to go with that um So I don't know that's what I think I think I think the the wow token I don't know 100 if it's a good idea or not But I do know this I do know that it was far and away uh the most effective way of combating gold buyers and sellers in uh In retail wow over the years Probably not true. I mean it probably was the most effective way But there are so many gold sellers still in retail Well, there are but it but it but it hurt it a lot like and they like because because I I talked to somebody about this like statistically and and Like somebody from blizzard and they uh, they said like it was just like it's just in the stats, right? Like because they could you know what else the div It hugely increased the number of people buying gold though legitimately like there are so many people right now That would want to buy gold, but they don't want to go to a taboo third-party gold site They don't want to potentially get scammed. They don't want to potentially get banned So the second it's legitimately offered through an in-game service like the in-game shop.  Yes, I knew so yeah, it might have like It might have stopped for third-party gold sighing but gold buying but It interested a ton of new people to it as well in game. Yeah, and I think um Yes, you're right. Uh, I think that um the the thing is If somebody is like forming the gold legitimately And it's not being bought it and there's like not weird stuff going on for people to get it Then they see it as like kind of like, I mean at least somebody's actually like forming it And I don't know this this ends up being a whole discussion. I don't I don't 100 know where I stand on it myself, but um I don't know. I think I think that may end up being a discussion that like we may actually be having for real um Who knows how long down the road? Maybe a year down the road or something Right now. I don't think they're going to do it, but Uh, that may end up being a real discussion someday And that is my that that sums up my concern for the boost in the short term I do think it has effects on the game that are going to be negative Um, but it's really about the precedent that it sets and the long-term impact What else is going to come up on the shop? I personally think a wow token is inevitable I think it'll come one day for classic servers. I think Maybe some cosmetics down the line. You never know At this classic is such a it's it hasn't become the cowshow that it could be but the interest is there from the player base So blizzard's probably looking at it from just like a spreadsheet perspective Like let's say they're making just hypothetical numbers. Let's say they're making You know 10 million dollars a month right now in classic if you add a level boost if you add a wow token You got some cosmetics that 10 million could become 100 million like that's That's the the potential that classic has to form them cash so if you're in their shoes And again, you're you're profit driven and you report to investors to do share responsibility, etc You would be an absolute fool not to introduce these features Especially when again, I don't think they will be they will be overwhelmingly contested I think as like us a lot of streamers, etc will speak out against them But I think there's a lot of people right now that are already buying wow gold classic gold They're very happy for the boosts. They wouldn't mind some cosmetics in the game I think that yeah see and and that's for me like that's like a whole thing where it's like Now now we're going down the rabbit hole And and kind of what you're saying. It's like what precedent does it set and and what all is going on? But no, you're right. There are a lot of people buying gold and it is it is There there is a silent group of people out there who are just they don't really they don't really care They're like, okay, I'll just buy the gold because for them It's like I I go work a job and I make x amount of dollars per hour I can't make that much gold in that many hours They're like like if I work for an hour I can make more money working for an hour than like I can't make that much gold per dollar like it doesn't convert So for them, they're like yeah, I'll just go buy it who cares you know and for them it's about saving time and Uh But like you don't really hear from those people. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know where that's going to go I don't know. I'm I I feel like I'm I really feel like an odd man out at this point Like I think for a lot of people the initial maybe not these days But the initial traction of mmo's or just gaming in general was it didn't matter how hot you were in real life Or how tall or how short how much money you had In the gaming world all that mattered was really just like how good of a gamer you are, right? Yeah, and so the second you have people that people like a rich dad or a trust fund kid or whatever Is if you can just swipe your credit card to success it undermines the entire thing, right?  I I think there's it's a skill thing You can be good at it. You can be bad at it. There's smart people as bad people at it Like I love farming gold. It's one of my favorite activities and I consider myself good at it But knowing that other people are buying gold and it's so rampant So I see on some other person stream an item go for 30k gold and a gdkp and like talking about wow token It demotivates me from farming gold knowing that people can just buy 100 times more gold than I can farm it a day You know what I mean? Just instantaneously. I feel like it it it actually sort of ruins my gameplay. You know what I mean? Yeah, as some that exclusively runs naks gdkp's like I don't run them myself I fit in them the amount of gold that people have in these runs is mind-boggling the pot every single week Is between like 180 to 270 thousand gold We had a gressle drop two weeks ago and it sold for 170 70 or 70 75k And like everyone is just decked out in gold. It's insane Uh, it's crazy. Like these are it's ridiculous now. Yeah, it's it's so dumb and that's that's why Sorry, I thought you're done continue. Well, just real quick to understand how much that is in classic 170k Was a lot in classic. It was a lot in burning crusade. It was a lot in wrath of lich king It was a lot in cataclysm and it was a lot of missa pandaria Like that it's like 10 years worth of being rich. You know what I'm saying? Like that's how insane that number is Yeah, it's it's really really dumb It's uh, it's really really dumb people just have so much more gold and again This is something on private servers that that uh, like they did this on lights hope and they did this on gnosts They made specific changes Uh, it's a certain goal the gold farming methods to where it wouldn't spin out of control like this And this is something we again we talked about this on classic. Well, they also had they also had bought detection software That was just not implemented like Yeah, I don't know if you guys go to the auction house You're buying your consumables to go right next to ramson. You're like, oh wow flask is 250 gold Like this elixir is 20 gold. It's crazy. You're priced out of just playing the game at a basic level It's because of these of these gold buyers It's because these insane gdkp circulating the gold buyer gold into other other normal people's pockets that aren't necessarily buying gold But they're like they're it's just like the entire system is ruined at this point. Yeah I can't blame anyone for saying screw next ramus. I'm not ready next ramus. I can't blame anyone for Yeah, like it can be cool, right? It's just too much. You're right 100 percent. It's uh, it's it's it's very very difficult and It's fine right and a lot of people like to play it and they like to do all that stuff But it's it's a very reasonable argument against I just don't have time to to raid anymore Because I don't have time to farm and get ready and whatnot Um, well people say that I don't have time for and then they're like, yeah, but I want to keep doing it I'll just I'll go buy gold also, you know So it breeds other gold buyers just to do the basic activities that they want to do like raid next ramus once a week right Um, yeah, so hopefully hopefully that's not like a real discussion that we have to have But uh, I don't know. I mean just just knowing like what I what what I've heard from people and whatnot and Unfortunately player behavior so far, right? There are a lot of people buying gold like who knows if that ends up being a real discussion or not um Even even if it's not something that like we would want to see you necessarily um Uh a couple more things to talk about Uh the big point of discussion everybody talks about the leather working drums, right? Everybody talks about leather working drums And are they going to nerf this people feel like Engineering in classic is a little bit different the same but different right a lot of people think like oh You need engineering for a fight like viscades, right? Everybody sappers everything and um A lot of a lot of high end raiders have engineering engineering in classic helps fill a lot of gaps that a lot of the character like other players have And it almost makes you uh engineering is almost like a point of balance in the game Like I can do things with my paladin as an engineer That I can't do but as a paladin normally, but it helps like you know, I can do the gnome net or I can uh I can throw grenades right something as simple as that And uh, I do think engineering is a little bit different But leather working is something that's very not everybody wants to be a leather worker It's not something that like it helps everybody out mostly equally, but it's it's about the drums And uh, they have said that they are planning on doing something to drums, but not exactly what yet They don't know I I think if they put a debuff on it where you can you know and do it x amount of time I don't know. I don't know what they would do right, but a lot like uh Like they have heroism in retail like how heroism works in retail where you have like a 10 minute timer. I think it is um I think something like that some kind of debuff would probably be a good idea What do you guys think? Yeah, I think comparing leather working to engineering. I don't see many people do it I think it's a dumb comparison like with engineering You get a lot of value in a lot of different ways with with with leather working you just get drums And it's just like a very, you know, restrictive or conversely prohibitive type of gameplay It's you're burning a profession slot that otherwise could be used on something really really cool that you might enjoy Um, I don't know anyone that's angry about the leather working change even like hardcore tbc indies They're all happy about this. I think this is a really good change I they didn't say what what specifically they're going to do for it But um, I think they'll probably just put the two minute debuff on the back end Is it to make it so instead of 20 leather workers if you're min maxing you'll need five I guess in your min max guilt Yeah I think I think something like that would be a good idea having some form of a debuff And I think like like uh states have said The overwhelming majority of people think this is a good change and something positive You know what else that I think it's a very good change And I think it's going to be very exciting and leads back to one of the periods of wow classic that i'm going to be Probably the most excited about going forward even going into tbc is prepatch You can level a draenei or a blood elf paladin or shaman in the prepatch And that is going to be so fun. I'm telling you. I hope prepatch is two months long I I I actually hope it's two months long I think it would be so much fun because it's going to be a unique experience We are never going to get it again Right, we are never going to get it again And being able to raid with shaman's new group for alliance paladin's new group for Uh for horde, I just think it's going to be a very cool experience like for me I'm I'm planning on doing a lot of viewer raids states that I'm sure you're going to be doing the same thing Like viewer raids group stuff There's going to be event it's going to be this this whole new experience very unique to this Hopefully I would hope two month period in uh in classic wow that we're again probably never going to get again And uh, I for me, I want to do that so much. I want to do tbc and stuff too, but but prepatch is Oh It's going to be so when doing nax and prepatch during the raids and prepatch Uh for me, I play paladin paladins get buffed a lot for rep paladins and prop paladins So, uh, it's going to be it's going to be very very cool. And I think it's going to be very very exciting. Um And uh, again, this is just stuff like we're we're kind of touching on things that that have been announced already But kind of giving our own uh thoughts and opinions on them going forward is kind of like an introduction to season two So, um of classic cast here Is there uh, is there anything specifically that you guys are looking forward to in either prepatch or tbc that you guys really want to do tips Just just like the the events and like you said us man, you hit the nail on the freaking head I think we're going to do a lot of stuff Yeah, there there's like this is a this is going to be a great era for a while I think arguably it already has been and I tweeted about this a couple weeks back Like with classic coming back Now you have at the bare minimum, you know two wow or on average one wow expansion coming out every year That on its own is tremendous You've got good changes and good support being added to these games so many potential versions of these games coming out We've got prepatch in the immediate future tbc afterwards Like i'm just excited for this new era of wow that we've been entering And uh, I think the I think the game is just it's crazy to think that 17 years later The game has possibly never been more popular than it is right now potentially And the accounts have reflected that in recent, you know earnings calls, etc So I'm excited for the prepatch. I think that that limited time one to two months Whatever it ends up being of just unique meta that no one's ever done before. I think that's going to be so fun I think tbc launch is going to be really fun Um, and yeah, I'm just I'm excited to to do what I can to support the community with events and stuff behind the scenes Unfortunately, I won't be able to play quite as much anymore. Uh, and as when you talked about it, I'm working on the Stuff behind the scenes. I also recently just had a baby for those that don't know So my life has been completely in flux. I also moved across the country to texas Uh, so I just don't have the time that I used to but I'm excited to watch you guys play it on the second monitor And to see you guys experience it and to hopefully just live vicariously through you guys Yeah, I think I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I I really really do and You know, we'll do we'll do events and stuff we'll plan We'll probably like as far as the work stuff goes you mentioned we'll probably do some stuff with the work too and Uh, like I have some plans for like events and stuff. It's it's going to be a lot of fun. Um Ah, yeah, so Stacey, what about you?  Do you think Do you want to get accomplished? You know in vanilla wow, I had like a set of goals like my biggest goal was You know, I wanted to get some refers then I want to get scareblower And so I did I did a lot of things I wanted to do um in tbc back in the day. I got season 2 glad I really I think the coolest mount ever in the game is season 3 gladiator and so I I really want to try to get Season 3 gladiator mount I frankly Dear, okay frank. I I'm okay at pvp. I'm not amazing and there's a lot of really really good people I bet all the retail guys are going to come and do tbc arena There's you know the uh, there's the tbc private server guys have come to arena. There's a lot of really good classic players It's going to be really really competitive. So I'm looking forward to uh Like grinding and getting better like you know that that learning process of improving over time as you queue And you just learn and get better and you and you have all those moments Of like oh wow, I need to do this. That's always super fun with pvp And I'm really looking forward to uh to the grind on the way up arena It's going to be really really hard and a really competitive now It's going to be interesting to see how how it pans out because like like I was good 15 years ago But what does that mean now? like Not really Like uh because for for me I like I was like 2200. I played 5v5 a lot, right? So I was 2200 and fives in my rat paladin. I was top rated alliance paladin in nightfall battle group season 3 and um That's like a whole story. I'm not going to get into but uh I haven't been playing arenas like hardcore with with a lot of these retail guys a lot of these guys have been doing a lot of Retail arenas for like you know over the years. They're uh, they're going to be like really high performing because that's what they do They're retail arena players like There's those guys and then there's people that have spent the last 10 years playing tbc private servers That's all they've done and and I think I do think that's a thing too, but here's something to consider Given how classic turned out mechanically I don't know exactly how things are going to go with uh the difference between private servers and and classic vanilla because there was a lot of stuff like pvp wise that was mechanically different from private to uh uh classic wow Like I had to relearn a lot of stuff at the beginning of classic We had these conversations our members like you know, how how are the private server guys going to do in classic? I mean hey you look at every single top uh speedrunning guild in classic It's a it's a private server guild Right private server guys like and these and the reason why they do well is not because they've played private servers It's because they're just obsessed right the knowledge played private servers because they're obsessed and they're going to continue To be obsessed and that's what makes them good. So um Yeah, the private server guys are going to do really well in arena. I'm sure yeah, I think yeah I think they're gonna do well. I'm just saying that the there is there is going to be some some formal learning curve there If if it's anything like it was with wow classic vanilla um Yeah, that's that's how I feel about all that um Are you guys talking about pvp? Yeah pvp in general. Yeah arena. I think I think the retail guys are gonna are really gonna be uh Because that's that's kind of like their their forte right their arenas and there's all kinds of different pvp skill Right, there's like battlegrounds. There's rated rated battlegrounds. There's arenas. There's dueling There's world pvp. There's all kinds of different types of skill in classic wow and and they're all played in different ways and uh Arena skill is its own thing right counting timers or like knowing certain things to do in certain comps. It's a lot more There's like the big meme that vanilla pvp is like very rock paper scissors it's uh I actually think it's more like that in arenas than it is in vanilla pvp because it's a lot about like You have like the the concept of trading cooldowns and wait. Okay. We got to wait for this burst window We got to do this and we got to trade these cooldowns and knowing how to best handle all those trades Okay, we got to wall this push here. We have a burst window here. We got to push at this point I think it's uh, maybe rock paper scissors isn't really the best analogy, but it's a lot more um Actually, no it is because there's a lot of things like just some comps just straight up Own right like rmp is just gonna it's just gonna dominate Especially with how much better players are now players are better. We have better equipment We didn't have mmo mouses in burning crusade. We didn't have these So if you have like a naga or a scimitar or anything of that sort, uh, we are able to hit more buttons physically It's it's gonna be very interesting. I was gonna pan out I'm gonna be totally honest. Okay. When I got glad season two on my mage We were playing rmp.  Like they're they're absolutely terrible. It's it's a different game different ballpark, right? It's it's very yeah Like uh, especially something like rmp like I remember so so states have told me this like three years ago I don't remember if you told me this but states have said I I got glad in season two But I never tell anybody about it. I like almost never talk about it because I I I was 12 years old I played rmp and I still don't know what I was doing because like it was literally like they wouldn't you said They would just tell you go polymorph this guy and then hit the other guy and that's just all you did And you just happen to get gladiator people were just bad. Yeah, people were just really really bad back then Yeah, go go watch some old gladiator footage people were bad. Yeah, it's very very different now. So, um It's gonna be interesting to see how it all pans out. I love arenas. I'm gonna play arenas I'm gonna do tbc. I'm gonna love it um Raids everything everything is gonna be great But uh, as far as like expectations, who knows I would love to try and go and push for glad I think in a lot of ways rep paladins people think rep paladins are really good in burning crusade They get really big buffs for pve But to be honest, they don't really get in some ways they get worse Because of what the game asks of you whenever you're playing arenas the game the game is under a microscope And it's about very very specific things Like it asks for very very specific things interrupts Uh gap closers mortal strike cc These are all things that paladins don't have paladins have a lot of burst damage And a little bit of utility with like freedom bop offheels cleanse that sort of stuff But they're missing on a lot of things that are really important for arenas and uh I I've been uh doing a little bit of tbc arena lately. Okay, that's all I'll say and uh Rhett shaman comps are really scary Rhett shaman and and that's why I think uh, that's that's a really good testament to I think people just being better gamers now Because back then Rhett shaman was strong and a lot of burst But I remember we didn't have like if you had a shaman who could interrupt somebody while healing Like interrupt an opposing caster or whatever or healer while they're healing They were like a god and now that's kind of like the standard So having somebody like a rest of shaman in your group as a ret paladin in arenas Helps fill in those gaps because they still have their earth shock. They still have their interrupt while you don't have an interrupt Right and win fury is just insane So, uh, like for me, I'm looking to play Like ret warrior shaman threes. I think that would be outstanding like a ret warrior shaman threes group or In fives doing ret warrior shaman Uh, holy paladin and then probably mage rogue or hunter as the fifth. That's what we did back in the day We had a major. We rotated those guys um rogue rogue and mage were probably the best but uh But yeah, so that's that's what we did and and putting a ret a warrior and a shaman together is is very very strong um As far as like the damage output goes, but you can get kited a little bit and Yeah, so it'll be fun. I'm very excited for burning crusade arenas. I cannot wait That's my favorite period of time in the game was arenas and I if I can I play them all day Right again, my stream has changed. So like I probably won't be able to play classic all day every day after Maybe the first few months, but um the uh It just it just we'll see how how it goes right and uh, I'm very very excited. I think we all are um Do you guys have anything else you want to talk about? We went a little bit over time today. We were planning on finishing like probably about 20 20 minutes ago or so Yeah, hey, you know, I I could talk all day. I do every day. I talk about all this stuff But I understand you guys tip tips as a meeting. So yeah tips as a meeting stays.  Where do everything go? So it's just like overnight Let's take a couple questions out of chat. Usually we end with a little bit of q&a Um, let's take a couple questions out of chat. We won't go too long. Um, do you guys have anything specific? What do you guys think?  The plan is again that this is going to be a series Leading up to burning crusade. We're going to see how it goes. Um I think the next episode that we're going to do we don't know exactly if we're going to do it weekly or bi-weekly But uh, the next episode will be not next week, but two weeks from now And uh, well, we should say this, uh tips is at least from what I understand is not going to come on again So, uh, this is like tips, uh tips last last classic ass. Yeah, and that's that's what I was going to say so tips is uh Tips with everything you got going on with with the org and and he's got a kid now and uh Tips has a lot of other responsibilities. So uh tips is going to be going to go focus on that stuff It was an awesome time with the start of classic cast and we wanted to make sure tips was here to talk about it a little bit and um You know, just kind of everything that we've kind of put together and and this community, right with like, uh The people who who support us with classic and the people who've been like pushing for classic for Literally years before it actually released. So, um Yeah, tips. I mean if you I guess if you want to say anything, uh, it's been like it's been awesome Like starting this whole thing, right with with both of you guys But uh, it's been uh, it's been really really cool. So It's been my pleasure honestly to talk with with you guys as fan and stay safe. Um, For the past few years All the memories the early days, you know on classic cast also prepping for classic cast just talking In discord, you know Worrying about, you know, our streams and what was happened and our futures and were we ever going to make it and stuff like that it's been a crazy crazy journey and uh, very blessed I've been a part of this podcast and uh You know again very excited for the future. I look forward to watching you guys again on the second monitor every couple weeks When you do this and uh looking forward to uh, I'm not sure I'm not gonna say anything But I as when you and I've talked a little bit about potentially who's gonna be coming on Uh looking forward to seeing who you guys bring on in the future And um, yeah, I I I hope everyone that's watched Classic cast, uh, whatever however many episodes you watched. I hope they were fruitful I hope you enjoyed them and I hope at the end of the day everyone really enjoyed vanilla classic and they got what they wanted out of it And here's to tbc and the future Yeah, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be it's gonna be a really really good time. Um It's gonna be a really really good time Absolutely, we could not have had a third a third host for class guest And I'm happy I'm happy you were able to come on and do uh, do do one final one Yeah, for sure. I think I think yeah, I think it's it's been a really good, uh I think I think it's been a great episode today. And I think I think it's like kind of like a good wrap up of Uh, kind of like season one at the same time um Do yeah, that's fine. Do uh, he's already gone. He's already gone. Yeah, it's over gg. It's over chat Uh, so do you guys have any questions? Maybe maybe a couple of some people said, uh, uh, this is good This is something we actually want to talk about. I think we missed uh predictions for, um Predictions for for launch and pre patch. When do you when do you think it's? Pre patch is gonna hit and what do you think launch is gonna hit? Hmm It's hard to put dates down. I think beta will probably be a month and a half I think pre patch will be a month. I don't think they'll overlap at all. So I think you'll have like Yeah, let's say we can have beta starting next week. That's the rumor that's going around You have that for a month and a half You have like a week off and then you have pre patch for a month And then you have tbc. So tbc could be three three months from now Could be who knows? Yeah, uh Super early summer june. I think that we're probably going to get beta sometime next month I think I think beta for sure is I'd be really surprised if beta didn't happen in april Um, after that point, I think maybe we're going to get a june july Pre patch and then probably a release in august my initial thought was that we would get it at the beginning of the summer and then There was that leak that happened and then I was like full steam ahead beginning of summer It's going to be great. But what kind of stopped my Uh Thought process on that was the fact that they didn't give us a date at blizzcon. They just told us 2021 so Which makes you think it's further out than people in thought, right? Right? And the original cycle of vanilla while was about 25 months And that would put it in september. I don't think that it should be 25 months. I don't think that it should be Uh, it said definitely should be longer than that, but I think uh People are just completing the content so much faster now I don't think it needs to be 25 months. I think like 21 22 months is kind of like the sweet spot And if it came out in august, then maybe you should mute mute tips real quick. Yeah, let's go ahead and do that Uh, maybe oh there he is. Hello, baby. Baby. Yeah, there's this baby There's uh, there's tips out to baby so Good one me so, uh, so yeah That's uh, I'll go ahead and mute them. So baby doesn't cry too much. So people wave Yeah, um I yeah, that's what I think I I'm hoping for two months. I'm hoping for two months. Here's how I'm muted doesn't think There is I unmuted tips All right, cool. Cool. Yeah But uh, you know part of me doesn't think the beta is going to come out a week from now because you know like Prior to the classic beta a lot of people knew like we all kind of knew is we all knew like a couple weeks in advance when it was going to be in A lot of like media outlets knew about it and stuff and yeah, I don't know Maybe I'm just in the dark personally. I haven't heard anything. I have no idea. Maybe you guys know. I don't know No, I haven't I haven't heard anything because here's the thing they would uh I don't think it's going to be a week from now because Classic beta like you said they told us one w