Hello, everyone. My name is Sanjog All, and I'm the host of CIO Talk Radio. We are streaming this event from Enterprise Data World 2013, thanks to our friends at Data Diversity and Data Management International, which is DAMA, for hosting this event. And my request to the audience at this live event, and as well as extended audience online to tweet their thoughts, comments, and questions to at CIO Talk Radio using Twitter hashtag EDW13. And the topic for today's show is chief data officers, data scientists, and big data architects' new roles for a new world of data. And our guests for today's show are Michelin Casey, who is the principal with CDOLLC. We have Mario Faria, who's the data strategy advisor with Boa Vista. And he's recently joined Bill Gates Foundation. And Derek Stross was the chief data officer with TD Ameritrade. Now, as I said, it's going to be an interacting session, very, very interactive, and we will not have this panel. 3 plus 300, I would say what? So it's a 303 people panel. Everything is going to be interactive. I will be taking a microphone. I'll come to the people who don't talk as much and ask them questions. So before I come to you, you please raise your hands that I want to ask a question. With that said, first thing that we are going to do, instead of me introducing these individuals formally, I would request them, and we do everything in a time-bound setting. So 60 seconds or less, starting with Derek, you introduce yourself in your own words and watch top of mine. And why do you think we should have this conversation today? Derek Stross, chief data officer at TD Ameritrade. The reason we need to really focus on this is because data has always been struggling to find a home in an organization. And it's tried really to find the right level as well. And I think we've all been part of that. A number of us have got the scars to prove. A number of us have been resurrected a couple of times and brought back. So I think this is a great time, an exciting time for us where, generally speaking, people are starting to see that this needs a level of attention in the enterprise, which is much more senior than has been given in the past. All right, so don't have to wait. Rapid fire. Michelin, why don't you share your background and what's top of mind for you? Great, good morning, everyone. I guess we're bordering afternoon. But so my name's Michelin Casey. I am the former chief data officer of the state of Colorado, the first state chief data officer. I have been consulting for the last two and a half years since I left the administration. But I'm very, very pleased that I'll be joining an organization to be announced on May 20th as a chief data officer, their first chief data officer as well. So I'm really excited about that opportunity to go back in-house and work with a phenomenal team again. Why data's important now and why are we having this discussion? I think we live in a world of data that we never have before. We're a completely data-driven society, and it's really refreshing to me to see over the last four years, five years, since I was first named chief data officer in Colorado, how much attention that this topic has received. I appreciate the hype that the vendors have given with regards to big data. I was doing big data before it was called big data, back when I worked for a company called Choice Point. But I think it's a really exciting time for those of us in the industry, and I think it's well over time that the importance of data management and data governance in organizations has given its due. Mario? Yes, hi. Mario Faria. I have the pleasure to be the first chief data officer for Latin America. I was awarded this position in 2011. I have been in technology business for 20 plus years. After 20, you don't count that much. With CRM, with web projects, supply chain, BI, and data warehousing. And we came to a point where we're in the middle of a very disruptive movement that has been caused by social, mobile, cloud, and big data. And all those movements combined, they are turning this industry upside down. And why data is so important today? Because I have been involved in some areas where data has been a key component of changing every way that people do business. From my experience with digital marketing, it's come to areas where marketing is completely different nowadays than was before. It's very mandatory for the guys in the market to understand data. For supply chain, for you to get their operational efficiency in your business is crucial to have data. And at this point, this trend that's happening, it's easier for everyone in the world to access the same technology as companies that were able to access that in the past. So smaller companies compete nowadays with very large players. So I'm excited that we are finally giving the proper attention to data and to the treat of information. Thank you so much. I'll ask somebody from the audience. I'm going to randomly pick someone and have them introduce themselves very quickly and tell why are they here at this event. Sir, what's your name? My name is Larry Burns, data architect for Paccar, the truck manufacturer. And I'm here for exactly that same reason, because data is the key component of all business transformations. Our manufacturing industry now being subject to environmental regulations, the EPA greenhouse gas regulations, is in the midst of a profound disruption, a profound transformation that affects all of our business processes. Now, that was on the serious note. Do you think you can make two paychecks just by becoming a data analyst or a chief data officer? Right now, I'm having difficulty making one paycheck, but I'm enjoying the work. Something should be changed, right? So that's why we are here. The bottom line is, what can we do in this new age where there's so much data floating around? Who takes care of that? Who should be the people who are driving this change? And who should be part of that organization in order for this to be creating value the way we are all anticipating? With that said, first question for you. Derek, what do you think has changed? Because we always had data. We never had a situation where we had less data. We were dealing with it. We had, that's why, data warehousing and business intelligence and teradata and so many different organizations, vendor solution providers juggling with it. What's so new? Why should I suddenly say, I want to spend another $250,000 or perhaps $500,000 for you as the salary for a chief data officer to lead this effort separately from the rest of the crew that exists? Well, I won't comment on the price ticket. But certainly, one of the key things, as Mario said, is that I think that certainly we've always had data. We've always had a lot of the issues that we have to deal with. But the key is that we're really in a perfect storm situation now with cloud and mobile and data and streaming information coming in from all types of different sources. So the size of the issue has become massive. Now, has it become really that massive? Perception is reality. And people's perception is that it's enormous. Again, to comment on what Michelin said is that thank you to the vendors for actually creating some of that perception. It does those serve us very well because we have a situation where we've all as a group been struggling to get data prime time in the organization, to get people to really step up and say, OK, we're serious now about doing something about managing our data as a corporate resource. So this gives us an opportunity to ride that wave. And there have been various waves over the years that we've all ridden. But I think this is the first one that's really significant and has been able to push it right up into the CEO's office. What's your name, sir? Hi, my name is Robert Choi. So do you think what Derek just makes, whatever he said, did it make sense to you? Yeah, it did. We have a kind of different industry where data has always been a resource for us. That's primarily because we pay for it. So we've always seen it as something that's quite expensive and something that we have to manage, especially when it comes to costs and things like that. So do you think perception, if that becomes reality, is that a good idea to spend based on just perceptions? Or is there some reality that you see from your vantage point? Sorry, could you repeat that? Complex question, right? Yeah, it is a complex question. So basically, he made a comment that perception is reality and because there's perceivably so much data that we got to as someone separately, as many organization has to be created in the main mothership organization to just handle data. Do you think data has really grown that much? And if at all it has, do we really need to handle all the data that's getting generated? Well, we've always generated a lot of data. It's just never been as accessible as it has been before. It's always been kind of hidden from us. All right. Mr. Lin, if you were to look at accessibility of data, and he said, that's the difference. Is that the only difference which suddenly makes it painful? And that's why we got to take care of that pain and that's why we have to build a chief data officer and that data driven organization. There's a lot to be said, I think, for accessibility. Certainly the disruption, I heard the term disruption earlier from Larry. And I think that disruption is hitting every industry sector today, health care, financial services, supply chain, retail. Technology is definitely disrupting. We're living in a hyper connected world. Everyone's connected. Ecosystems are colliding all over the place. And there is more of an awareness and more of a need to be able to collect data, whether it's sensor data, whether it's mobile device data, but not just the pure collection of the data. That doesn't get us where we need to be. It's the management, the interpretation, turning data into intelligence, into information, and into knowledge that can be leveraged by an organization or all critical components of that. And I think because the world is so different now in the 21st century that there's much more of an awareness from boards of directors, from chief executive officers, from governors, state legislators, federal government agencies, that data is really something to be leveraged and optimized in really fundamentally different ways. And we've had the ability to do so before, again, because of much smarter technology than we've ever had accessible to us. All right, we have a question. This is David Lotion. Derek, I want to reflect on something you said a couple of minutes ago, which was giving some gratitude to the vendors for some of the buzz terms that have created this maelstrom of interest in managing data. One of the things that I hear frequently is, quote unquote, managing data as a corporate asset. And to make that operational, what ideas do you guys have for transitioning the value of information to a corporate financial statement? OK, so the key is, how do we make the data actionable? So as Michelin was starting to say there, we've got lots of data. But how do we start putting some context around the data? How do we make it usable? And how do we make it ultimately actionable? And I think those are the kinds of things that the CDO organization needs to be measured on. To what extent have we been able to work with our business partners to make data actionable? All right, so we spoke about data making actionable. Let's play devil's advocate. So what's your name? Hi, my name is Peter Benson. I'm the executive director of ECMA, Electronic Commerce Co-Maginal Association. I'm really interested in the comments, but I think we're dancing around an elephant in the room. And the elephant is regulation. If there's one group in this world that's figured out how to use data, it's governments. And I'm seeing it on an international basis. So organizations are playing catch up.  So in reality, as much as companies see a value in data, which clearly is value in data, we see many companies that are able to leverage that. These governments and government agencies who have actually figured out that they can use this very cost-effective measure to collect data, to analyze it, and to demonstrate who is and who is not compliant. So it's really the driver that we see are government agencies not just here in the US. We're seeing it on an international basis all over the world. It's a very low-cost way of validating compliance. It's not about you sign off that you are compliant, give me the data. Excellent comment. Now, Mario, I'd like to get your input on this. Yeah. In my previous job, I did a lot of work with the people from the compliance department and also from our legal department. Because when we were accessing the first time that I got to the job, OK, let's access what I have. Let's see what assets I have in terms of data and people and everything. So I got to engage a lot with discussions with the people from the compliance department and also legal department to see which are the legal boundaries that we could get from social media, for example, to put in our systems. If I go to Facebook on their public pages for everyone that's there, I'm not hacking Facebook, can I take pictures? Can I map all the relationships? Can I start those in our databases? And can those information be a data point that will enhance or decrease a credit score for someone? Is it possible to do that? Can I go to a social network and identify a sexual preference for someone? Is it legal to do that or not? And can I store that information in our database? See, when you start talking about big data and everything else, it opens a window of opportunity. However, it opens a window of problems that you have to take care. And by recommendation through the people who are dealing with big data, try to understand that the information that you are playing around, you are safe in doing that. That you are able to store that and not cause a lot of problems. Because if you do, I mean, you might be in deep, deep trouble. Michelin? So I actually disagree with your statement. I like the debate. I totally forget your name. I'm sorry, what was your name again? Peter. I disagree with your statement in that, yes, governments are really good at passing regulations. They're not really good at leveraging the data that they collect. And while I would say that the Intel community is probably better than most and NASA is amazing, the reality is that most federal and state agencies in this country actually don't do a good job. Your credit card companies and the data brokers, actually are doing a much better job of managing your data and actually creating intelligence around those data sets. I think those in the financial sector, health care is starting to move forward. But I disagree with your overall theory that passing regulations actually means a government agency knows what to do with that data. And with that said, why don't we also look at why do we make any investment? So the question here is, are we making all this investment to just save ourselves from compliance-related penalties or shave off a few dollars here and there, or we actually want some top-line growth? So if there is a positivity in that overall approach, then perhaps we will find better solutions to the problems we have versus trying to get into a cave and say, OK, how will I save myself from the next problem that I might encounter? So with that said, let's look at the solution to that. We said we are going to come up with Chief Data Officer as a role. Let's define that role. Michelin, I'll come back to you again. And if you were to define your own elevator pitch, because you mentioned that you sold yourself a CDO job, which you're going to start in two weeks. That means you did something right by telling that there is a value proposition for this role. Tell what did you tell the CEO, because they really do not know, and maybe they don't care. They just want to end benefit out of it. Well, first, don't cut my vacation short, because it's actually three weeks. OK. And actually, I was quite fortunate in that the organization that I'm going to work for was foresighted enough or had the foresight to understand how important data is to the organization and put it in their strategic plan, both the fact that data management and data governance is about most importance to that organization and creating the office of the Chief Data Officer was equally vital for them in fulfilling their mission. I really had to sell myself into getting that role versus selling them on the role. But what I would say that the most important responsibilities of a Chief Data Officer are developing an enterprise data strategy that aligns the management of data with the business strategy, overseeing enterprise data management functions and activities, such as enterprise data governance, enterprise information architecture, et cetera. And then finally, really acting as the enterprise champion for data across the organization, being the one that tells the story over and over and over again about why strong data management and data governance helps the organization meet its goals and objectives, getting people to buy into the idea. Because just because someone's put in a strategic plan doesn't mean the culture is going to change overnight to support the work that needs to be done. So the CDO really is that enterprise data champion is the diplomat that works across the organization, is the one that breaks down the silos that have always existed, is the change agent that starts to get people to think about managing data, doing their business processes much differently than they ever have before. What's your name, sir? Brian Burr-Seism. OK, based on what Michelin said, if you were to report to her as a CDO, what would be your expectation from that leader? Well, I would look for the data leadership. It's something that I don't see in a lot of organizations, the foresight that she described of recognizing the data assets. So I would look for that leadership and develop around that. So do you think that leadership is not existing today with whose server is championing the data, or is the custodian there? It's definitely out there in pockets. I'm not seeing it on a universal basis by any means. All right, does that tell us? And this is a finding. And I've got just another gentleman asking a question just about it. But let me finish this thought here. We are looking at a couple of comments being made where we are talking about the problem existed earlier. It even exists today. What it was not done, what we did not do well was address it holistically. We just address them in pockets. Is that what we are saying? Well, it's part of the evolution of humankind. This is Mario, by the way. Sorry. When you were young, probably you went to the doctor. And there was a general doctor that took care of everything, for your nail on your foot, for your headache that you had.  You have probably their head go, someone specializing in head diseases. So what's happening nowadays, we've seen a lot of professions that are deeper into knowledge, very specific. And about the CDO position, yeah, it's quite new. The first data officer started his position three years ago. And for those of you who are Gartner customers, I definitely recommend to download a paper called CEO advisory. CDOs are a foresight, not a fact. It's a great paper that Gartner had created talking to the presidents of organizations, telling them why they need a CDO, where should the CDO report to, and the business case that you have to create for this position. So for those of you in the audience who are listening to this show here, I definitely recommend, if you are into this career path, if you want to provoke your organization, get this report, give it to your president for his reading during the weekend. And you're gonna be doing a great favor in order to make data an economic and strategic asset for your business. All right, we have a question here. What's your name, sir? Hi, Jeremy Posner from... Which company? I'm from Algenstan in London. Most large corporations, not technology firms, have CIOs, Chief Information Officers, which are more like CDOs. And how do you see a CDO fitting in with that kind of corporate structure? And what sort of skills do you think are the difference between one and the other? For me? For me? Do you want to start there? Okay, Jeremy, take it. Yeah, so let me take a stab at that. I think that you're right in terms of the CTO role. It has tended to go more towards the infrastructure side of things and perhaps some of the innovation, technology innovation things. I think it also very often picks up the information security side of things, the information security officer usually lives in that kind of domain as well. But I think that data doesn't really fit terribly well into that. Data needs to be an equal player. So I believe that CDO and CTO, and for that matter, CIO, are all equal players at the same table. And they are very specific focus areas for each of them. Can I compliment? You sure can. Please hold your comment. We have a question from the audience again. What's your name, sir? Mehmet Oren. Your company name? Director DataQualityData.com. So as data professionals, we often help our colleagues come up with measurable relevant and actionable metrics to help measure their business. What are those key metrics to show the effectiveness of a chief data officer in the enterprise context for home? All right, Mario, you wanna take it? There's only one metric in business, money.  So whatever you're doing, whatever company you are, try to make a business case related to money. In our case there, we had a lot of complaints about the customers. The customers were really complaining about quality of our data. And what we did, we streamlined our production environment. We put a call center in place to get the complaints quite fast. We tracked every complaint to the source to make sure that if we're doing anything wrong and capturing the data and treating the data. And at the end of the day, we showed some of the customers that their complaints didn't proceed. We were showing everything that was right. So at the end of the day, you were showing how many of the transactions that we're doing are causing problems. And because of problems we're having customer churn or losing customers to the competition, things like that. So business case, the final metric should be money, that you're saving or that you're bringing in revenue. All right, coming back to the topic that we have, which is to define and justify the role of chief data officer and data scientist, et cetera. Coming back to the integration point, so Derek just mentioned chief data officer and chief information officer and chief technology officer, they're all peers. Are these the only integrations that are to be expected in an organization? With technology, it seems like CI and CTU are technology functions. But then people who actually feel the data is really important to them is the business side. Who all would you rather have the CDO role integrate with in order for it to really create true value? Mr. Mishman. Do you mean report to or integrate with? Actually integrate with. Okay. So depending on how the organization is actually set up and managed, the enterprise risk officer, the enterprise privacy officer, the enterprise information security officer, the chief operating officer. We said CIO, CTO. CMO. Chief marketing officer, chief financial officer. And again, depending on how your organization is set up, those who lead business units, those might be. The sales guys. The sales guys. The sales guys. Don't forget the sales guys. Sales guys. Yeah. And actually to some extent, if you're in digital marketing, you're user experience guys. Absolutely, yeah. Because they, at the end of the day, as the CDO, you're marshalling all the data. You're making the data available, but it's the experience guys that are gonna, together with the active folks, they're gonna be able to deliver that data down to your customers and your clients. So synchronizing what you're doing and what they're doing is critical. It's a very holistic role that's spanning the entire organization and really understanding the data needs from across the organization and not just from a technical data management perspective, but really from a business perspective. And that's why I think the risk, the privacy, talk about highly regulated industries, information security, marketing, those are all key components of what needs to go on from a chief data officer perspective. That said, we know the leader is only as good as the crew. So if we had to have a number of different crew members which belong to this organization, I think one of the most important one would be the data scientists. By show of hands in this audience, and of course anybody who is listening to it live, streaming, raise their virtual hands to tell how many people wanted to get into this data scientist role and they are clear about how they will go about doing it. I see two people. The reason only two people raised hands, let me not break the question yet again. How many people want to be data scientists? So how many people want to be chief data officers? Okay, this response reminds me about a kid coming out of the school. They say, what do you want to be? I want to be director of IT. You've got to learn to crawl before you start running and that's the basic agenda here. But coming back to the important portion of the conversation is about data scientists. What is it that you need to do to churn out this new breed of talent who will be required to make this chief data officer who's gonna make half a million a year successful? Okay, Mario, why don't you take that? Yeah, it was really funny. It reminds me a story, a friend of mine, Valerie, when I got the position of chief data officer, I was over the news in Brazil and magazines and everything and she dropped me a message. Mario, can you believe that? I have been working with data warehousing databases for 20 years and your chief data officer can understand that. And I thought for a moment and then I replied to Valerie, say, Valerie, every general is a soldier, but not every soldier is a general. It's a different set of skills. For being a CDO, you gotta be good at talking to people. You gotta be good in the studying process to budgeting, politics, because you're gonna be dealing with a lot of silos inside your organization. And also you have to understand technology as well. It's a different role. And this data scientist, as I see, is a more technical role. Is someone who understands about data modeling, who understands about statistics, who understands about how to do queries, might have a good understanding about programming. Other guys will be going there on Hadoop and MapReduce trying to do those wonderful queries and present the results. And the CDO is a person, a leader, who will be managing the data scientists, but will be managing the data architects, will be managing the people responsible for data quality, responsible for creating the MDM, the metadata structure inside the organization. You cannot do your job as a data scientist if you don't have all those things before, good architecture, metadata and everything else. Okay, so different roles, different set of skills and complementary. What's your name? Cheryl Buck. All right, what's your background? I'm a program manager and a BI team. Do you think you can envision yourself being part of a CDO organization? I think I could be part of a CDO organization. I think that it's an interesting role that's one of the things that I'm most curious about is if every one of you is going to be reporting to a CEO or if it's different structures for each of you, but there's such a broad range of types of roles and skills that are required and an opportunity to explore data across a whole organization. It gives a unique view into every aspect of an organization that you don't get in a lot of the vertical roles and that's one of the things that I find most exciting about data roles in general. So if you were to inventory all different roles that you feel should be part of this organization, CDO's organization, who would those be? Wow, data architects, data analysts, process designers, people who business systems analysts who really understand the business processes and can translate that into data needs, the data scientists, database, all the DBAs, the data quality analysts. All right, very good. This is a very important response coming from the audience and by sure of hands, how many of you agree with who all she mentioned should be part of the CDO organization? I see quite a few people, 70%. Derek, now I'd like to get your response to this. Yeah, I think that's a great list. The way I typically try and divide it up is into four key areas. The one area has to do with data governance and so that's more of a business-facing area working with all of the business communities and ensuring that they understand what it means to be a data steward or a data owner or a data officer. So that's one area and it's very much a business area. The second one's also business-facing and that is around analytics and that's the area where you ultimately have data scientists involved and that's also very much business-focused and business-facing. The third area is data architecture and data management, the typical kind of thing that you would see that we're all used to and that I dare say most of you have some kind of background in and that's obviously more IT-focused and the fourth area is also IT-focused and that's around building the data assets, building and maintaining the data assets. So you'd have your data warehouse team there. You'd have your master data management store team inside of that as well. So it's a good mix of business folks and IT folks. And I believe that one of the key things that the CDO organization needs to be able to do is to bring the business and the IT rolls together under one head so that it can be properly coordinated and it can be coordinated end to end across the life cycle of data. All right, we have a question. Yes, Paul. Hello? Yeah, Paul Petroic. Paul Petroic from Environment Canada. Michelin mentioned the importance of the CDO tackling culture change. I feel the management of change factor is the most challenging and biggest risk to an EDM program. Currently, people with a holistic enterprise data management vision are often a minority within many organizations and just the question is what role does the CDO play in managing the change in culture and processes, breaking down the silos on both the IT side and the business side, and what are some tangible approaches for tackling this? Michelin, good question. It's a great question. Thank you so much for asking it. I do believe culture change management is one of the toughest things that those of us in this profession face and deal with. And many organizations don't put any funding towards change management. But when you introduce things like data governance into an organization, you are fundamentally changing the way business starts to act with data across the entire organization. What was the question? Two questions. What role does the CDO play in managing the change? And the second question is, what are some tangible approaches for tackling the management of change? Thank you. So as I had mentioned earlier, I think one of the key activities, key responsibilities of the chief data officer is actually to be that enterprise data champion, right? And change agent across the organization. So working top down to ensure sponsorship and buy-in at the top levels, but also supporting grassroots efforts at the project levels and supporting the business units and business areas to actually get ready and make sure their folks have the right knowledge, training, skills, et cetera, to handle the changes that new policies, processes, et cetera, impact their organizations with. Some really tangible things that I think just basic is communications out of the gate. And I know we talked about lots of different roles that could be part of the chief data officer organization. I would just add to that actually having a marketing communications person to support having an ongoing communications plan and set of activities across your organization. And also think about getting a change management expert in to support change management activities, not just at the project level, but at the business unit level and at the strategic level. Communications key, communications critical, that could be just through newsletters, that could be through wikis, that could be through intranets. There are a lot of different ways your organizations already communicate today. Take advantage of those, but also think about communicating externally with your business partners, your suppliers, your vendors, your regulators, about what you're doing to improve your data management and how that could impact them, or vice versa, how you could be impacted by their lack of or their strong data management practices as data flows in and out. All right, there's another question from the audience. So we're here in the back. All right, here. So one of the risks I see of all the chief this, chief that, chief data officer included, is there's too much specialization and focus on perfection when what, as Mario said, we really are about is to make money, which means people are very aware of business sensitivities and what the job requires. What is good enough to get the job done quickly, fast to make money? The risk of centralizing a lot of these roles in one organization makes perfection. And we see that in all walks of life, when a general physician could be, say, you have a cold, go home, get some, drink some water, get some sleep, instead you walk to five, another specialist says get these five whatever tests and you sprain your ankle walking into one of those things. So you can have unintended consequences of having so much specialization. I'd like to get the comments on what you think about that. Yeah, Derek, why don't you take it and follow that by Mario please. Okay, so I think the important point is that the CDO needs to bring those specialists together. That was the point I was trying to make, is to make it, you know, it's not getting rid of the specialists, it's bringing them together so that they actually collaborate.  I think that's the key that I was trying to make as far as that is concerned. But you know, in terms of, you know, how to really address the problem, I believe it has to be done within the context of business processes. So, you know, we're data people here, but one of the biggest mistakes we can make is just to do data stuff. If we always contextualize everything we're doing within the context of a business process and specifically get an understanding from the rest of the business community as to what of these business processes do we need to actually fix or improve and how do we do that using data and analytics, I think we're then on a really strong footing using that multidisciplinary team approach. Maria? Yeah, I'll take my example. I cannot program for life. If I would do that data modeling, my models would be terrible. If I try to use some software to document metadata, man, I will not be able to go to step one of doing that. However, I do understand on technology and business process and understand on how to bring the best of the breed of available people who can help me to achieve those goals. And the responsibility of the general that I told you before is to engage with others people to align the data strategy with the business strategy of the company and work together with the business units, sales, marketing, finance, the CEO, so you can take the best value of the data for the information that you have inside and those information, those data will drive the actions that you're gonna take. Okay, that's the main role of the chief data officer and chief data officer to be successful and that person needs to bring results almost every day. One thing that I recommend for those of you who want to go to this career, try to understand about the lean methodology. Learn about that, learn how to make quick wins fast and by that you can boost trap your next results. All right, we have another question from the audience. Your name, ma'am? Leila Moreto and I work for the MITRE Corporation. Everything the panel mentioned and some of what the audience mentioned from my experience falls under the CIO shop, the Enterprise Data Architecture, the Enterprise Data Model, working with the business to understand what the requirement is and I do differentiate CIO from CTO because the CTO is focused on the infrastructure from a technological point of view. So if I was a CEO, you have not sold me why CTO is different and it doesn't fall into the CIO. All right, Derek? Okay, good point. And I think the role of the CIO is something that the industry as a whole is in a constant state of flux on. I dare say most organizations, if you go and meet with the CIO and you say, well, so what's your role? And you take a note of that and then you go to the next organization and ask the same question. You're probably not gonna get a terribly good match. And I think that certain things have certainly found their home in CIO which is things like the PMO work. I think the aspect of working with the business through business analysis, having the methodologies and so on involved for doing development, all that kind of stuff is very much front and center still part of CIO and the app dev side as well, typically finds its way into that. The area that is not taken care of and has not been terribly well taken care of by the CIO is the area of data because it takes a specific type of mindset. You have, I think most people are familiar with John Zachman and John was here earlier on in the week. One of the things John always says is, hey, you get data people and you get non-data people. And neither of them are lesser human beings. They just have different perspectives, right? So I think that typically the people that are attracted into leadership roles in the CIO culture are not data people. In fact, very seldom do the CIO leadership team folks understand the significance of what data people bring. So I think the opportunity for the CDO to be a colleague of the CIO who understands and can perform that role of being the data czar for the enterprise is really compelling to most CIOs. All right, we have one question from the audience. Please state your name, please. Hi, Allie Hillary, State Farm Insurance. So I've heard a lot this week of the buzz around the term data scientist. And I know you guys briefly touched on some of the background that would be useful for an up-and-coming data scientist, but I still haven't really heard a good definition of their role. And so I was hoping you could speak to that. All right, Derek, you wanna take it again? Yeah, I could jump in with a couple of comments and then everyone else. Yeah, comments from the rest of the group. So the role just like the CDO role is brand new. So it's still being defined. It's in the process of being defined. I know a lot of organizations like MIT, for example, focusing on it in a big way to try and really crystallize what it means. It has to have business and technology skills in it. That's certainly one of the broad brush, obvious things that everyone has come to the conclusion about. It would be great if the person can not only roll up their sleeves and really hack into data and be able to employ all sorts of really good, and I used the term geek-like with respect techniques to get the most out of data and to get access to data a lot quicker than anyone else can. So I think that's key, but a good business understanding as well. Someone who understands the fundamental way that that business is put together and what's important for that business. It's got to be a good blend of the two. All right. Can I add? Yes, please go ahead. I think one of the big characteristics of a really strong data scientist that we don't talk too much about is sort of that anthropological perspective that they bring and sort of an insatiable curiosity about what aren't we thinking about? What are the questions that we could be asking that we're not? How can we make correlations that are different than what we're able to do today? So to a certain extent, certainly the strong programming skills and quant skills are important. And being able to ask really interesting questions and being able to be curious about what's going on and how two not seemingly items could actually tie together. You want those sorts of people or those types of characteristics in the data scientists that you bring in-house. All right. If you were in this industry as of today, it's in the industry that's in the middle of a turmoil. The perfect storm is happening in this industry. So you can be whatever you want.  The beauty is there is a lack of people who know how to work with data properly at this point. And the situation will get worse from now to the next three years. Any final comments, Derek? I think that we have an enormous opportunity here. And I think that we can shape the future, as Mario said. We as a data community here, I think the key is gonna be to make sure that we build really strong ties into the business and we come up with stuff that is going to be compelling for the business that they're gonna sit back and say, okay, now we understand why data is so important and why we need to manage it. And then you wrap around the data governance side and you say, oh, by the way, you're only gonna have sustained benefit from this if you step up as the business community and take hold of the ownership responsibilities for the data so that we can constantly improve the quality of the data that we're working off. Thank you again, Derek, Michelin, and Mario for taking the time. It's a very interesting subject. I was thinking to convert this into a four hour conversation, but then Tony said, we cannot do that. So we will be closing the discussion now. However, I'd really like to thank the diversity and Daima for arranging this. And I totally enjoyed the conversation and participation from the audience. So I'd like to get a round of applause for yourself. Thank you again for listening to CIO Talk Radio, our audience who are listening from around the world. Plus, of course, the people here. I thank you again. This is Sanjogal, your talk show host signing off.