We'll get started one unfortunate thing is I left my microphone to the computer somewhere else So speak up when you ask questions because we're using the microphone on the top of the laptop Which is a really bad microphone So it's good that you're all here today because it's gonna be really poor sound quality for everyone else online So, you know, you do what you can All right, I'll take well, so you want somewhere to do Thursday. All right, I'll take like three minutes worth of questions Project three, I mean assignment to Class is confused Both parts I don't know. I I gotta say yeah, I mean I know of some people 20 people have got part Three or part two. I don't know how many people have part 100% But it's probably a good number. I think anything else Let's get started Set UID, why don't we care? Yeah, our end goal is to get root privileges, but it doesn't necessarily have to be root, right? So set UID means that a program is gonna be executing with somebody else's permissions Right, which is really awesome because then we can use that and if those permissions are Different from ours like another user or if they're the root the super user's permissions then that's really great as well So Before we had started in on the attacks, I wanted to take a little bit of time to talk about How do we? Yeah, but if you do you should let me know because that would be an unintended vulnerability so No, I Don't think so even misled maybe some hackers in here Running campaigns of misinformation Deliberately to try tricky. Yeah Yes, I'm part I'm part one you're running it as root Mm-hmm. They're very different. They're not even being run on the same system. So yeah, don't need root for part two You shouldn't if you do we'll end up getting root you can tell me Unintended so how do we so? When we compile a program, right? What is so what's the file that's on the system? We saw on Friday the change change shell see it CHSH or the PAS SWD what kind of File formats are those what kind of programs are they? Like is that a Python file that's doing that What is it? That's executable binary. So what kind of format is it in? Yeah, so it's an elf binary So if we want to try to find some bugs or some vulnerabilities in it right because we know hey That's a privileged program when I execute it. It's running as root But what do I do? Do I just like look at the ones and zeros of the file? And maybe you could do that. So I guess I kind of heard but I get here. What is disassembly mean? That mean we like like when you get some Ikea furniture and move it out of your house You have to disassemble it Then when you put it back together, you have that one piece Doesn't go Ikea experts So is disassembling disassembly mean? Say it again Yeah, so taking in that binary those ones and zeros in that else file and converting it into back into x86 assembly code So why is that useful is it useful? That's a lot easier to read assembly code than it is just the raw binaries, right? But what about can we take that then back up to? C code Not always and yeah, it's a lot more difficult right because there's no guarantee that this is actually a C or C++ program, right? So disassembling the idea is you want to Take that program and you want to try to win the binary program identify the x86 instructions of that program Is it easy or is it difficult and why? Op codes may not match up because there's a lot of different hardware Maybe I mean there definitely could be the binary that you're Want to analyze this for some MIPS machine you've never heard of right but assuming it is for a machine that you know then What are some properties you can leverage? Yeah, you know all the registers, you know the layout of the machine You know the mapping between the assembly instructions and their raw hex values, right? So then is it just trivially easy, so where do you start? So how do we know where to start where do we start in that binary binary just a whole bunch of 1s and 0s How do we know with 1s and 0s to start with? Yeah, so in the elf file right so not even actually the main function of the program But in the elf file format it defines the entry point of the program, right? So we need to be able to look at that elf file identify the entry point of the program and start disassembling from there So from there is a trivial can we just go through and crank out op codes and assembly instructions Optimization flight so we actually be things that we're missing when we take a mile away, which we'll never be able to see It could be obfuscated Right, which is kind of a similar thing, but just so X What's the big difference between x86 and arm what's what are some of the differences between In my that So what does that mean not fix links instructions So how big are the instructions and arm right so assuming 32 bit right every instruction arm is 32 bits Right, so then when you're decompiling that It's kind of easy in some sense, right, you know, okay every 32 bits Right, there's gonna be a new instruction But with x86 x86 instructions can vary all the way down from one byte to five or six bytes right and so Assuming you properly decode the first bite, then you can be good and So some of these things The disassemblers work just by linearly parsing the program and saying okay Start at the main function and just try to decode everything into x86 instructions. So what types of? control flow constructs does assembly like this have So we're talking about jumps, what kind of jumps do we have? Unconditional and conditional right so some jumps that we jump to All the time and sometimes that we jump to some of the time what else it's another fix usually constant jump.  So the value of whatever's in a register so we can actually With indirect jumps we can say okay jump to whatever's in PAS So then can we know statically where that jump is going to go? Possibly maybe but we have to do some maybe sophisticated analysis It could be that that value is computed at runtime based on hashing things and all kinds of crazy stuff So this actually is one of the things that makes even Disassembly difficult because we may not know all the code the pass through the program And so some of the tools the very simple stupid tools just do linear disassembly like just start disassembling bytes some are more sophisticated in that they look at the jumps and so They will analyze one function and then go to each of the jumps and analyze those functions So we'll do this kind of recursive attempt to follow the control flow of the program And the one I actually use like mmm a good amount of the time is Just incredibly simple object dump So let me turn on this VM object dump is the GNU disassembler. It's Incredibly simple linear disassembler. So if I do a dot out so the dash D means disassemble every section in this file So it's gonna try to disassemble the whole thing And I'm gonna pipe this through less because it's gonna be a lot of stuff So I can see here that some of these are actually bad Not valid instructions, right because it's just trying to interpret bytes as x86 instructions So if I search for main, there should be a main here So this is actually let's I'm gonna do m32 for 32 bits. Oh, I may not have the libraries Let's see It's the problem being this is the problem of doing demos live We'll go back. We'll not worry about it that it's not the architecture exactly that we're talking about Okay, big difference between 64 bit and 32 bit the R. I actually don't know what that stands for but I'm gonna say it's a really large register That's 64 bits now instead of 32 But we can see here from this main function. It's decoded. Okay Push the register the base pointer move the stack pointer into the base pointer push register 13 push register 12 push register Rbx right so we can see that This main the disassembler has been able to do this right so it's actually been able to try to identify these instructions that are That are executed at runtime And so we have calls and we have compares and we have jumps It's gonna jump to this location. So if I searched for 401 93 B Hopefully I will find that so this is that label or something that it's gonna be jumping from here to to do all this stuff Okay, so this is kind of like the most Works, okay So there are a lot of So where to look RadaWare is a whole suite of program analysis tools It does reversing some vulnerability analysis stuff and it does disassembly the binary some forensic stuff Really cool stuff is it has bindings to Python for a lot of these features So you can use this as a library in order to automatically disassemble a program to debug a program do all kinds of cool stuff It's also free which is also The cool feature when using these tools Another like the most popular tool is Ida Pro. So this is the state of the art tool for reverse engineering and disassembly like it has a incredibly sophisticated Disassembler it's got a nice graph view so you can see how the control flow goes throughout all those pieces it Can do Disassembly for just about every architecture you can throw at it. It will be able to disassemble it It even supports. Well with an additional plug-in. It will even support decompilation. So it's decompilation Yeah, so not exactly the original source code right because it can't guarantee that but it will output a C representation of that binary how close it is depends on a lot of things You can integrate gdb or other debuggers with Ida. You can also script Ida the downside is it is Very expensive. Anyone guess how much just a license for Ida costs at like 15 and under it I think for just a license and the decompiler is like three or two four thousand dollars Per architecture. So x86 arm 64 bit Yeah The nice thing is there is a limited version that is available for free So if you want to download it and play around with it, there's an older version. That's for free on their website It's but it's and it's also when you start using it the user interface is just terrible like I just have to tell you that off the bat now, but it's one of those tools that it's like It is the best in its class and people use it despite the interface being terrible So there's a whole book on like the Ida pro book that was written by somebody else And it's like how to actually use Ida There's other newer stuff. There's a tool called hopper that is a disassembler It includes a decompiler, I don't know exactly how good it is yet It's a commercial product But you can use it for free and it's actually not very expensive. I mean compared to Ida Everything's cheap compared to Ida But you can get you know you can get very far with Object dump and your brain. So those are nice things Okay, any questions on this before we get on to our attacks Okay, so we're looking at a few different attacks against Linux and unique systems Based on all the knowledge we've learned about binaries and the systems. So we're gonna talk about all kinds of attacks. So We're gonna talk about so what would be remote attacks against the network service What was that? Yeah So why would remote remote attacks be useful or interesting right so you have how much axe I mean, let's say it's a system like let's make of maybe a sign in to part two, right? What access do you have on that system? Anybody here have a user account on there?  No Right, but it's offering you a network service Right, and so if you're able to somehow trick that system into executing arbitrary code that you decide Now you essentially are on that system and then you can leverage maybe other attacks to gain other visibility on the system Some of the stuff we'll talk about are some you know can be applied even at the operating system level So why would remote attacks against the operating system be useful why we should attack network services and be done with it? Multiple hosts in what sense? Yeah, so we're the operating system, right? There's multiple applications running in that operating system if I just Relatively exploit one application Well, then I have the permission to that application I can do whatever it can do if I have the operating system now I can mess with any application on that system, right? Other kinds of things more even remote attacks against a browser, so the website that you visit may load some Advertisement which loads some unintentionally malicious or maybe intentionally malicious code Which then attacks your browser and then gets on your system, right? So this is another class of attacks that's able to go from remote, right to you They're incredibly rare nowadays, but you could I believe I was vulnerabilities and like the TCP in the TCP IP stack So you take buffer overflowing there. You send data and now you're executing arbitrary code in the OS is in the kernel space of that operating system, so you're completely out of that operating system USBs you still have physical access so like for here I'm more interested in like Internet accessible Stuff, but yeah, even like local printing things Like printing services on all kinds of those any even the operating system does Network-wise often times can be exploited this way They're a lot very rare because it means you can get to the OS level from completely outside of the system So it's very rare that you find these type of things nowadays So yeah, so you so we're local on the system, right? We want to try to exploit set you ID applications We talked about that because we want to try to expand our privileges in the applications And we may even want to try to do local attacks against the operating system, right? So see if there's a way so why would I Know what's What are the differences maybe between remote attacks against operating system and local attacks against operating system? Remote attacks are more difficult why? Yeah, so think about the attack service Right, so what the operating system on the network, right? Exposes if you think about all of the operating system code where there could possibly be bugs or vulnerabilities, right? The network code is just a small subset of that Right, but now once you're on the system locally you can make system calls You can interact with the operating system in all kinds of ways, so the attack service is a lot more broad there So you're more likely to be able to find a vulnerability Okay so on Unix right so on on Linux and what we're looking at right so Kind of as we said so that almost all of the local vulnerabilities exploit set you ID root programs Right because this way so now you don't really worry about the Linux code itself being secure or whatever It's another application that is necessary for the administrator. That's set you ID and the other about one these are obviously don't quote me on these numbers right these are Approximates The other tiny fraction of vulnerabilities actually exploit the kernel itself Okay, so We want to exploit set you ID applications. What can we do if we're local on a machine? to exploit They go to the applications What can we control when we call the functions right we control the parameters? What else? Standard input yeah any input to the program The environment yeah, so it may read from environment variables. We saw that the environment variables are actually in the process space on the executing application So it can very well be that we can get input into the application that way So the inputs we have the command line right any arguments you pass there the environment variables during execution We can actually maybe provide input with file input by specifying certain files. We may be able to somehow modify it if it's Dynamically loading libraries and we're able to influence that process to get our own code in there any kind of potentially any socket input sockets being TCP IP sockets or maybe Unix sockets Maybe we're able to write into a Unix socket to get into the application and so this is like so this is The way you need to be approaching these on how to break these local applications is okay What what is this program doing? What inputs are really is it reading from and how can I influence that? So what what how does it interact with the environment how do applications interact with the environment that they can be We could potentially Right, so we are able to run multiple of these processes at the same time. Maybe there's a race condition or something there We could maybe try to start a process Delete it start another process and maybe it leaves behind some temporary files What else? dependencies in one sense So usually well, okay Yes Yeah, so maybe through the environment we can influence what things this the trusted program runs Right, we can't actually change the code of the trusted program itself I think the operating system will actually if we're able to overwrite a binary it'll Drop the set UID bit so it no longer runs as root. I believe that's how that works So what kind of environment interactions do processes do what kind of things do your applications do? Read files open files, right? Can we mess with the file system? Yeah, right? We can Create files the access files, right? Can we trick it to maybe access our file instead of a trusted file that we have permissions to do? With the processes, right? Maybe we can send signals The process forks other things. Maybe we can influence it that way and so Really what this comes down to right? It's trying to define. Okay. What is like? What is this application doing? right, we had that abstract model an application using the operating system, right, but It's oftentimes because of this just defining. Okay, what is the application and what does it do from a development perspective? is really difficult right because It can do all these things it can access all these files and it could be that by changing one file that it's able to access We're able to trick it into executing arbitrary code or to doing something on our behalf So we're gonna look at a lot of different types of attacks here We're gonna look at things where we can influence file accesses We'll get into the details of all of these We're gonna look at command injection and memory corruption attacks so These are all still incredibly prevalent Even in completely different domains. So for instance like command injection is it still incredibly popular on the web and memory corruption even though We've known about these possibilities and the more sure we're almost what 30 years ago And you rely on memory corruption vulnerabilities that's still in it Incredibly active area of research in terms of attacks and defenses. So people say oh great We count with this new way to prevent memory corruption vulnerabilities and then Then we will break it to find other ways around it. So it's a cat very much a cat and mouse game Okay, so File access attacks. So when you run a command When you say like a dot out or ch shell chsh How does bash know which program you want to execute? Yeah right So in general, right, so there's actually kind of two ways to think about this So one way is when we execute the program, right? So for those I know some of you for time is one, right? Your program language like Java didn't have a system So how did you figure out how to execute the rate? So one way we'll see right is when we want to execute a program We check in an environment variable called the path to look for which program to execute right path says hey These are the program This is the list of how to look for programs to execute What about when we open files for reading and writing? If I just say open Who dot text? Where's that? Where's that? What files are we open in the current working directory who controls the current working directory program? The person who executes it, right? So maybe by running our program in a certain folder, right? Maybe we could change what files that actually opens and writes and So this is kind of file access attacks very broadly are all about doing this like can you trick an application? into somehow violating the security just by Messing with what it's opening what files. It's opening what things it's reading all that kind of stuff Okay, so the actually the most pretty much basic of these attacks that actually still works on a surprising amount of web applications is is What's known as the dot-dot attack? So does dot-dot refer to? Yeah, so in Unix, right dot-dot. So what's so when you're talking about folders and hierarchies, right? What is dot referred to? The current directory and dot-dot is what? the parent right So oftentimes so how do you when you want to open a file? Let's say from the user How do you do it usually you write applications you open files? How do you do it? Yeah, you get the file path from the user. Maybe concatenating some strings together, right? and If the user on this case the attacker, right? So we got to be thinking about every time users give input to our application these this input can potentially be malicious Right, and so this is the way we have to be thinking and so The idea is if the application is building some path to a file by concatenating values from the users Like for instance in the C example We have some initial path and then the user file, right? So we're concatenating these values together and let's say it opens this path with read write So am I restricted by this so okay? So what some of the things we need to think about right is what is this application by this code? What is the application intend for the user to do? Oh, is it? So if you were coding this application, why would you write it like this like what? What files?  Does everybody agree? That you only want Whatever this initial path is you only want files to be opened in initial path Do you agree? That's kind of implicit in the security of this application you flash initial path right? slash ETC slash program one You know and then that's where the users store their log files or something and so this is a way to access their log files Yeah, we're not talking about that right now We want to think about what is what was the intention of the programmer by writing that right? You would probably not If that was if you're intent, I mean yeah, we want to try to get to what's the intent behind here, right? Reasonable and it would be a thousand different things in ways, right a reasonable subject would be okay, whatever initial path is You should probably only open files there in the initial path But what happens exactly if the user input something with dot-dot characters in it then what's gonna happen? So what can the user make this program open in the parent directory, and then what about that's brand directory? And then could they specify literally any file on the system? Yeah Right like with the dot-dot you can go dot-dot dot-dot dot-dot all the way to the root you can actually keep going You don't even need to know exactly how deep you are dot-dot slash dot-dot slash Dot-dot slash dot-dot slash Then what about if you want to open ETC password ETC shadow it's a root file You want to open slash home slash add-of-d slash dot ssh slash authorized keys file Or maybe ID underscore RSA for my private key So yeah, this is exactly what the dot-dot attack is right so the attacker provides file names with parent directories in it and this allows them to Circumvent the intended security policy of this application The other way to think about it is called the direct directory traversal attack right And so this Works on web applications to on web applications if you're writing to a file and you use this You can put dot-dots to get the web app to get the application to write to some other file Which maybe you can leverage for other purposes and so Basically if you're ever so okay, what do we do so how do we fix this? What are some strategies for how to fix this? That's ever contains a dot-dot ignore it. Is that enough? What do you do? What do you do you actually ignore it? Except only absolute pass in what sense? The whole path, but here I've given the whole path Right, I've given this whole initial path Yeah, so there's a couple actually there's a couple issues here, right? So one issue one way to think about it is Okay, disallow any top dots in the user file I think you're included slashes right now they can open a pile up not just in the initial pass Let's say they can't go out with dot-dot With slashes they can go to sub directories right which could be just as bad depending on our application but our Our security policy is hey, we really want to just restrict them to this initial path, right? Only in this directory do I want them to be opening and writing files? So, yeah, there's there's two ways to think about this one way is okay. We blacklist You know we search for bad things in user file Another way is okay. We do this in cat nation and then we do the security check that says okay This had better be in this folder, right? If it's not in this folder, then we stop when we don't do anything Yes Okay Yeah, so that's a very good point I was trying to do that too right that's another reason why just blacklisting things is dangerous and taking a whitelist approach It's much better right where you only accept known good. So I would do something like okay I would check user file for it's gotta be just Album error here a through Z zero or nine. It's anything else chuck it I don't I won't allow you to create a file Because yeah, okay, what about if there's a space like dot space dot And it could be that maybe You know, it depends on what's happening here between Pat and the open maybe other things are being applied to it What was that what we do want a dot for an extension of Maybe but maybe I don't want to allow them to do that right because that Yeah, that becomes trickier right then. What do you allow what do you not allow? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we can use other functions to try to have the operating system help us determine where the file is Yes Does it maybe it maps all dot characters, maybe there's other dot unit code characters other languages But aren't the ASCII doc like it map by the operating system to the parent working directory Another thing I just thought I was what about symbolic links In that folder that will link you then out of that folder Maybe there's a symbolic link from inside the initial path to the root or to something somewhere else So now maybe you can go outside from that All kinds of issues so the basic idea is you you need to either heavily sanitize that input or use a white list to Guarantee that there's not going to be that the user cannot create a file that violates this security policy There's actually another cool technique and this is actually what I use in the submission system So all of the organizers stuff is done so see each route is a System the syscall. Yeah, I believe it's a syscall so that an application executes with a new root Direct a new root file system. So basically it says hey change So you do see a droop slash initial path and now To your application when it tries to access slash if only access is That initial that initial path it literally no matter how many dot-dot slashes it does it can never go outside because your application of that slash Actually, yeah, this is kind of the CH route was kind of the first They are also called jails in BSD It's kind of it's kind of gone full circle where you first have like CH routes and then you had virtualization So you're like, oh great You have all this isolation with virtualization and now with like containers like Docker and all that stuff We're kind of coming back to oh run the same processes on the same machine, but have them be separated somehow So when you're running stuff, so even if when you're running a root application right or A time of two part one on the submission system You're not actually executing in the submission systems directory. You're executing your own little sub directory So you shouldn't be able to go out, but There's always some stuff that could happen. So Especially when you're running as root and I also am running you as root, but only the capability to Connect to a raw socket. That was the other little trick there. So There's other root capabilities that I took away. I think so it should be less things you can do and So see it's also useful for something like a web server Right, so we know a web server should only touch a certain directory in most cases. It's bar So if we put our web server in a CH route now, we can guarantee that it's not going to affect anything else of the file system Okay Another type of file attacks are path and home attacks. So these are quite are really fun So what is so path as we saw right effects? So it's an environment variable and it determines how the shell right how batch or shell Searches for commands, right? So what's the format of path? Yeah colon separated values of paths or directories, right? So it's from the left from the first one search first in that directory for that file name if you can't find it look in the next one if you can't find it look in the next one and then if you can't find it you Say that that file can't be found So the idea is if the application itself, right is invoking commands if our set going the application is invoking commands Without specifying the exact path Then maybe we can control it to execute either a different version or something that we control right, so specifically the system calls exact exact LP and exact VP They use the shell path so you can call it say exact LS and it will look up in your path parameter to try to find the LS program So if we create if we change our path right because we control the path we control the environment that this program Executes in we can get it to execute our value and not somebody else's value or our application So what is the home environment variable used for home directory? Yeah, so it specifies the current user's home directory. So how do you usually access that when you're doing file accesses or something? The tilde Yeah, right the tilde and So when the shell sees that it knows okay look up in the environment variable Expand that or look up in home in the environment variables expand that to determine where to go so If an application is using something like trying to access things with tilde slash my file about TXP Right and the tacker can execute that and change The home environment variable to point to it anywhere and so it'll create this my file that TXT wherever we want You know, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's a bad thing Let's stop here for now because I want to come back and show you an example of Path and home tax So we can see what that looks like so We're back on Wednesday


Sermon 45, Commentary in the Gospel of Luke, Sermons 39-46 by Cyril of Alexandria, translated by R. Paine Smith, this LibriVox recording is in the public domain. Sermon 45, 840-48. And when Jesus returned, the multitude received him, for they were all waiting for him. And behold, there came a man named Jaros, and he was a ruler of the synagogue, and he fell down at Jesus' feet and besought him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. And as he went, the multitudes thronged him, and a woman who had had an issue of blood twelve years, and had spent all her substance upon physicians, and could be healed of none, came near behind him, and touched the hem of his garment, and immediately her issue of blood staunched. And Jesus said, Who touched me? And when all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitudes press and throng thee. But Jesus said, Someone touched me, for I know that power has gone forth from me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid from him, she came trembling and fell down before him, and declared before all the people, for what cause she had touched him, and that she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, My daughter, thy faith hath saved thee. So in peace. Those who are skillful in elucidating the mystery of the dispensation of the only begotten in the flesh, and whose minds are illuminated with divine light, the Spirit commanded, saying, Declare his praise among the Gentiles, and his miracles among all nations. Did he then command them to declare the praise of our universal Savior Christ among the multitudes of the Gentiles, to the inhabitants, that is, of the whole world, for no other reason than that he might be admired? Or was it not that he might also be believed on by all men? I verily affirm that it was both in order that he might be admired, and also that we might believe, that the Word of God the Father is very God, even though, as John says, he was made flesh. For he also somewhere declares unto the Jews, If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works. Let us then once again behold him benefiting multitudes by the miracles he wrought for their good. For there was a ruler and teacher of the synagogue of the Jews, called Jerus, and him the Gospel narrative here announces to us, for he fell down before the feet of Christ our common Savior, to ask for the unloosing of death, and the annulling of corruption. For his daughter was, so to speak, at the very gates of the grave. Come then, and let us ask Jerus to tell us in what light he regards him to whom he offers his request. For if thou drawest near regarding him as a mere man, and like unto one of us, as one that is, who possesses no power superior to ourselves, thou misest thy mark, and hast wandered from the right road, in asking of a man that which requires the power of God. The supreme nature alone is able to give life to the dead. It alone has immortality, and from it everything that is called into being borrows its life and motion. Ask therefore of men the things that belong unto men, and of God the things that belong unto God. Moreover, thou worshipest him as the Almighty God, and doest so as certainly knowing and testifying that he is able to give thee the accomplishment of thy request. What argument therefore is sufficient for thy defense, that once thou stonest Christ the Saviour of all, and with the rest did persecute him, and most foolishly and impiously say, for a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, because that thou being a man makest thyself God? And not only must we wonder at this, but at the following as well. For Lazarus indeed arose from the dead at the summons of Christ, who made him come forth from the very grave when he had been there four days, and corruption had already begun, and those indeed who were spectators of the miracle were astonished at the majesty of the deed. But the rulers of the synagogue of the Jews made the very miracle food for envy, and act thus great and excellent was stored up in their memory as a seed when sprung the guilt of murder. For when they had assembled they took counsel one with another, certainly for no lawful deed, but for one rather that brought upon them their final doom. For they said, What do we, for this man doeth many miracles? If we let him thus alone the Romans will come and take away both our nation and our place. What then sayest thou to this, O Jaros? Thou sawest death abolished in the case of Lazarus, death which always and to every one before had been stern and unyielding. Thou sawest destruction lose its power, from which no one on earth had escaped. And how then dost thou imagine that thou canst make him subject unto death who is supreme over death, the overthrower of destruction, and the giver of life? How can he who delivered others from the snares of death himself be liable to suffer it, unless he will so to do for the plan of salvation's sake? The text therefore concerning them is true, that they are foolish children and unwise. But the fate of the damsel was not without profit to her father. For just as sometimes the violence of the rains brings the spirited steed that has bounded away from the road back to its proper course. So also trouble often compels the soul of man to yield obedience to those things which are for its good, and are commanded. To this effect we find the blessed David also addressing God over all. Concerning those men who, not being as yet willing to walk uprightly, were led on, so to speak, by the disorderly impulses of their mind to the pit of destruction. With bridle and bit thou shalt restrain the jaws of those who draw not near to thee. For the force of circumstances brings men, as I said, even against their wills to the necessity of bowing their neck to God, as we may see indirectly shown in the Gospel parables. For Christ somewhere said that when the banquet was ready a servant was sent to call them to the supper and gather those that were bidden, but they, employing fictitious excuses of various kinds, would not come. Then the Lord it says, spake to that servant. Go into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in that my house may be filled. What then is the meaning of men being invited from the hedges? And that as it were by force. If it be not what is here referred to. For sometimes misfortunes beyond the power of endurance hedge men into extreme misery, and meeting it may be with care and assistance from those who fear Christ, they are thus led on unto faith in him and love, and being weaned from their former error received by tradition from their fathers, they accept the saving word of the Gospel, and such we may well affirm to be those who were called from the hedges. It is indeed more excellent and praiseworthy when the withdrawal from the former error to hasten to the truth is the fruit of free will, and such converts gathering the confirmation of their belief from the sacred scriptures and enjoying the instruction of such as are skillful in initiating men into the mysteries will advance onwards to a correct and blameless faith. But those others who are kindled if we may so speak by force and the troubles they meet with to the acknowledgement of the truth are not upon any quality with the former. But when admitted must be careful to maintain constancy and flee from a fickle levity, for it is their duty to preserve an unwavering faith lest they be found reprobate and feeble workers, deserters after the seal, cowards and traitors after taking up arms. Let them not hasten back to their former deeds, lest that be said of them which was spoken by one of the holy apostles, for it had been better for them not to have known the way of truth than having known it to turn back from the holy commandment that was delivered unto them. The case of the true proverb has befallen them, the dog that returns to his vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire. Not, however, to make this digression too long let us return to our original subject. Jarrus then drew near, but we deny that his coming was the fruit of free will, rather it was the fear of death which made him thus act against his will, for it had already, so to speak, assailed his daughter, and she was his only one. He said utterly at naught, then, the reputation of consistency in his wicked words and thoughts. For he who had off times made the attempt to slay Christ, for raising the dead from the grave, asks of him the unloosing of death. In order, then, that his character may seem to be harsh and abominable, and that he may be convicted of being such by the very facts, Christ accompanied him and yielded to his request. But there was also a sort of wise management in what was done. For had he not yielded to his request for grace, both himself and whosoever else suffered under the same ignorance, or rather want of common sense, would have said for sooth that he was not able to raise the damsel nor drive death away from her, even if he had gone to the house. That being, then, without power and unequal to the accomplishment of the divine miracle, he made his displeasure at Jairus a pretext for keeping away. To put a stop, therefore, to the impure and unbridled calumny of the juice, and restrain the tongues of the numerous persons ever ready for fault-binding, he consents immediately, and promises to raise up her who was in danger. And the promises were followed by the fulfillment in order that disbelief on their part might be without excuse, and that this miracle, like the rest, might be for their condemnation. For Christ also said of them, If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin, but now they have both seen and hated both me and my father. The Saviour, then, went to raise the damsel, and to implant in the dwellers upon earth the sure hope of the resurrection of the dead. But as he was midway on his road, another miracle, not unlike the former, was wonderfully wrought. For there was a woman afflicted with an issue of blood, the prey of a severe and violent malady, which refused to yield to the skills of physicians, and said it not all the appliances of human remedies. For she could not be healed, it says, by any, even though she had unsparingly lavished all her substance upon those who promised to deliver her from her disease. When therefore the unhappy woman had given up all hope from men, and now survived only for utter misery, she conceived in her a wise plan. For she had recourse to the physician who is from above, from heaven, as one who is able, readily and without effort, to effect those things that are beyond our power, and whose decrees whatever it be he would accomplish nothing can oppose. Her faith in this was perhaps occasioned by seeing Jairus leading him to his house, to prove himself mightier than death, by delivering his daughter from its inevitable bonds. For she thought perchance within herself, that if he be mightier than death, and the destroyer of corruption, how much more can he also alleviate the malady that afflicts her, staunching by ineffable power the fountains of her issue of blood. She draws near therefore, and touches the hem of his garment. But secretly and not openly, for she hoped to be able to escape notice, and as it were, to steal healing from one who knew not of it. But why, tell me, was the woman careful to escape notice? For why should she not draw near to Christ with more boldness than that leper, and ask for remission of her incurable pain? For he said, Lord if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. Why should not she act like those blind men, who when Christ passed by called out and said, Have mercy upon us, Lord Jesus, the Son of David? What then was it that made that sick woman wish to remain hid? It was because the law of the all-wise Moses imputed impurity to any woman who was suffering from an issue of blood, and everywhere called her unclean, and whoever was unclean might neither touch anything that was holy, nor approach a holy man. For this reason the woman was careful to remain concealed, lest as having transgressed the law she should have to bear the punishment which it imposed, and when she touched she was healed immediately and without delay. But the miracle did not remain hid, for the Savior, though knowing all things, asked as if he knew it not, saying, Who touched me? And when the holy apostles with good reason said, the multitudes throng thee and press thee, He said before them what had been done, saying, Somebody touched me, for I know that power has gone forth from me. Was it then for love of glory that the Lord did not allow this instance of his God-like working, the miracle I mean, that it happened to the woman to remain concealed? By no means do we say this, but rather that it was because he ever keeps in view the benefit of those who are called to grace through faith. The concealment, then, of the miracle would have been injurious to many, but being made known it benefited them in no slight degree, and especially the ruler of the synagogue himself, for it gave security to the hope to which he looked forward, and made him firmly trust that Christ would deliver his daughter from the bonds of death. But it is itself a fit subject for our admiration, for that woman was delivered being saved from a state of suffering thus bitter and incurable, and thereby we again obtain the firm assurance that the Emmanuel is very God. How and in what manner? Both from the miraculous event itself, and from the words which with divine dignity he spoke. For I know, he said, that power has gone forth from me. But it transcends our degree, or probably that even of the angels, to send forth any power, and that of their own nature, as something that is of themselves. Such an act is an attribute appropriate solely to the nature that is above all, and supreme. For every created being whatsoever, that is in due with power, whether of healing or the like, possesses it not of itself, but is a thing given it by God. For to the creature all things are given, and wrought in it, and of itself it can do nothing. As God therefore, he said, I knew that power has gone forth from me. And the woman now made confession, and in as much as with her malady, with the disease I mean which had afflicted her, she had put off the fear which made her wish to remain concealed. She proclaimed the divine miracle, and therefore was very fitly deemed worthy of his tranquilizing words, and received security that she should suffer from her malady no more. For our Saviour Christ said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath saved thee, go in peace. And this, too, was for the benefit of Jairus, though it was indeed a hard lesson. For he learns that neither the legal worship, nor the shedding of blood, nor the slaying of goats and calves, nor the circumcision of the flesh, nor the rest of the Sabbaths, nor ought besides of these temporary and typical matters, can save the dwellers upon earth. Faith only in Christ can do so, by means of which even the bless that Abraham was justified, and called the friend of God, and counted worthy of a special honours. And the blessing of God has been given also to those who according to the terms of the promise were to be his sons, even unto us. For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, or they all sons. But the children of the promise are counted as the seed. To us, then, this grace belongs, for we have been adopted as Abraham's sons, being justified not so much by the works of the law, as by faith in Christ. By whom and with whom, to God the Father, be praise and dominion with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever. Amen. End of Sermon 45 Sermon 46 Commentary in the Gospel of Luke, Sermons 39 through 46 by Cyril of Alexandria, translated by R. Paine Smith, this Librivox recording is in the public domain. Sermon 46 8 49 through 56 And while he is speaking, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying, Thy daughter is dead, trouble no more the teacher. But when Jesus heard it, he answered and said, Fear not, believe only, and she shall live. And when he came unto the house, he suffered no one to go in with him, save Peter and James and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden, and all wept and bewailed her. But he said, Weep not, for the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.  And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately, and he commanded to give her somewhat to eat, and her parents were astonished, and he commanded them to tell no one what was done. O come, all ye who love the glory of the Saviour, and thereby weave crowns for your heads, come once again, that we may rejoice in him, and as we extol him with endless praises, let us say in the words of the Prophet Isaiah, O Lord my God, I will praise thee, and I will laud thy name, for thou hast wrought wonderful works, even a counsel true from the beginning. What then is the counsel and purpose of God the Father, which was from the beginning and was true? Plainly that respecting us, for Christ for new, even before the foundations of the world, his mystery. But it was in the last ages of the world that he arose for the inhabitants of earth, that having borne the sin of the world, he might abolish both it and death, which is its consequence, and was brought upon us by its means. For so he himself plainly said, I am the resurrection and the life. And he that believeth on me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but hath passed from death unto life. And this then we shall see fulfilled in actual facts. For the ruler of the synagogue of the Jews drew near, and embracing the Saviour's knees, besought him to deliver his daughter from the bonds of death. For Lo, already she had been brought down unto this, and was in extreme danger. And the Saviour consented and set out with him, and was even hastening onward to the house of him who asked the favour, as well knowing that what was being done would profit many of those who followed him, and would also be for his own glory. And thus on the way the woman was saved, who was a victim of a severe and incurable malady, for she had an issue of blood which no one could stench, and which set at naught the art of physicians. But no sooner had she touched the hem in faith than she was forthwith healed, and a miracle thus glorious and manifest was, so to speak, the work merely of Christ's journey. And afterwards there met them from the ruler of the synagogue's house a messenger, saying, Thy daughter is dead, trouble not the teacher. What then was Christ's answer, saying that he possesses universal sovereignty, that he is Lord of life and death, and by the all-powerful determination of his will accomplishes whatsoever he desires. He saw the man oppressed with the weight of sorrow, swooning and stupefied, and all but despairing of the possibility of his daughter being rescued from death. For misfortunes are able to disturb even an apparently well-constituted mind and to estrange it from its settled convictions. To aid him, therefore, he gives him a kind and saving word, fit to sustain him in his fainting state, and work in him in unwavering faith, saying, Fear not, only believe, and she shall live. And having now come to the house of his supplicant, he quiets their lamentations, silences the musicians, and stops the tears of the weepers, saying, The damsel is not dead, but rather sleepeth. And they, it says, laughed at him. Observe here, I pray, the great skill of the management. For though he well knew that the damsel was dead, he said, She is not dead, but rather sleepeth. For what reason? That by their laughing at him they might give a clear and manifest acknowledgement that the damsel was dead. For probably there would be some of that class who always resist his glory, who would reject the divine miracle, and say that the damsel was not yet dead. And that in being delivered from sickness there was nothing done by Christ very extraordinary. To have, therefore, the acknowledgement of many that the damsel was dead, he said, that she was rather sleeping. And let no man affirm that Christ spake untruely. For to him, as being life by nature, there is nothing dead. And this is the reason why we, having a firm hope of the resurrection of the dead, call them those that sleep. For in Christ they will arise, and as the Blessed Paul says, they live to him, in that they are about to live. But observe this also, for as if to teach us to avoid vain glory, though certainly no such admirable deeds can be wrought by us. When he came to the house in which the damsel was lying dead, he took in with him but three of the holy apostles, and the father and the mother of the damsel. And the manner in which he wrought the miracle was worthy of God. For having taken her, it says, by the hand, he said, damsel arise, and she arose immediately. Oh, the power of a word and the might of commands that nothing can resist. Oh, the life producing touch of the hand that abolishes death and corruption. These are the fruits of faith, for the sake of which the law also was given to those of old time by the hand of Moses. But perhaps someone may say to this, but lo, any one can see that the ceremonial ordained by the law is unlike and at variance with faith in Christ, for the law commands us to make use of bloody sacrifices. But faith rejects everything of the kind, and has brought in for mankind a worship to be offered in spirit and in truth. For even Christ is somewhere found thus speaking by the harp of the psalmist to God the Father in heaven. Sacrifices and offerings thou didst not desire, whole-burned offerings and for sins, thou hadst no pleasure in, but a body hast thou framed for me. Then I said, lo, I come, for in the chapter of the books it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O God. Offerings, therefore, by blood are unavailing. But the sweet savor of spiritual worship is very acceptable to God. And this no man can present unto him, unless first he possesses that faith which is by Christ. And the Blessed Paul bears witness to this, where he writes, without faith no man can ever do that which is well-pleasing. It is necessary, therefore, for us to explain in what sense we say that the law was given because of faith. The Blessed Abraham, then, was justified by obedience and faith, for it is written that Abraham believed God, and he was called the Friend of God, and faith was counted to him for righteousness. And God promised him both that he should be the Father of many nations, and that all nations should be blessed in him, that is to say, by the imitation of his faith. One can see, therefore, that the grace that is by faith is prior to the ceremonial enjoined by the law, in that Abraham attained unto it while still uncircumcised. And afterwards, in process of time, the law entered by the hand of Moses. Did it then thrust away the justification that is by faith? That I mean which God promised to those who followed the steps of the faith of our Father Abraham, which he had while still uncircumcised. But how can this be true? The Blessed Paul, therefore, writes, This I say, then, that the covenant which was confirmed of old by God, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years afterwards, does not disannul so as to make the promise given to the Fathers of no effect. And again, is the law then against the promises of God? It may not be. And the same Divine Paul further teaches us the reasons for which the law at length entered by the ministration of angels, and the manner in which he confirms the faith in Christ, by having been brought in before the time of the incarnation of the only begotten, saying at one time that the law entered that sin might abound, and at another again that the scripture hath included all things under sin. And again, the law, therefore, was added because of transgressions. Do you wish to learn how the scripture included all things under sin? If so, I will explain it to the best of my ability. The heathen, then, as those who were without God, and destitute of hope, were in this world as men imprisoned in the pitfalls of baseness, and entangled without hope of escape in the cords of sin. On the other hand, the Israelites possessed, indeed, the law as a schoolmaster. But no man could be justified by its moans. For there is no profit to them that are in their sins in an offering by blood. And to this Paul again bears witness, saying, For the blood of bulls and of goats cannot take away sins. The law is the proof of the infirmity of all men, and therefore the blessed Paul calls it the ministry of condemnation. Sin abounded by its means, and that not as though it made any man sin, but rather because it declared the condemnation of him who was subject to offenses. It was enacted therefore because of transgressions, that as now no man was able to attain to a blameless life, the bringing in of the justification that is by Christ might be altogether necessary. For there was no other way by which the inhabitants of earth could escape from the tyranny of sin. The law then entered first for the sake of faith, to declare the guilt of those who were liable to infirmities, and prove them to be sinners. It sent men, therefore, so to speak, to the cleansing that is in Christ by faith. And for this reason the blessed Paul again wrote, Therefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, but now that faith has come we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For we are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Faith then in every way is the cause of life, as that which slays sin, the mother and nurse of death. Excellently, therefore, said Christ to the ruler of the synagogue of the Jews when his daughter was dead. Fear not, only believe, and she shall live. For, as I said, Christ makes those live who approach him by faith in that he is life. For in him we live and move and are. And he will raise the dead, suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, as it is written. And having this hope in him we shall both attain to the city that is above, and reign as kings with him, by whom and with whom, to God the Father, be praise and dominion with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever. Amen.


Good morning. My name is Joy Mochache. You are watching Help on Monday on the Y254 channel on Y in the Morning. Kindly hashtag Y in the Morning, hashtag Help on Monday. And also remember that please you can reach us on our social media platforms that is on Facebook, Twitter. That's Y254 channel. On Instagram you can find us on Y254 underscore channel. And you can find me and interact with me on Joy underscore Mochache. And well, today we have an important topic to discuss. Today, because of the trend that has been happening, we've been losing the lives of a lot of young ladies in what we are calling femicide. Femicide is the killing of females by men either just because of their gender or simply just because, you know, they've just been killed by a man. And today we have a psychologist that's going to give us an inside look on the minds or what is going on in the minds of the young men that are the perpetrators of such actions. His name is Dr. Haninton Ogonda. Please assist me in welcoming him. He's a psychologist and is here to discuss psychology when it comes to femicide. Karibusana, Dr. Ogonda. Thank you very much. Yeah, so glad to have you on our show. Yes. Yes. And you know, when we're talking out there, we had discussed a little bit and we're touching on the story of mostly Ivy Wengashi and what happened to her. And well, when it comes to relationships, because what I understand is she was dating a young man and this relationship ended up being a toxic one because actually she was preparing. It was the eve of her birthday when she lost her life. She was preparing for her birthday. She was very excited for it. And I think because this man had called her and she hadn't picked up the phone, this man got very upset and he decided he was going to get some transport all the way from Thika until Eldorit. And when he was driving, his mindset was he was going to take the life of this young lady and he reached there and he made sure that he did what he decided to do. Now, we'd like to hear your expertise and please Taffa Valley. Maybe you can share on how is it possible that somebody can drive that long distance and not change their mind. In your opinion, is this somebody who is mentally well? Thank you for the introduction. Mental health is composed of a variety of things. So many that we can't mention all of them here. As for him, to my opinion, there is what we would call cumulative stress. Okay. Cumulative stress. Cumulative stress. Cumulative from the word to accumulate. Okay. Yeah. It is a type of stress that piles up over a long period of time and are not attended. When this happens, it can lead to one deciding on taking up either his or her life or the lives of others. I would say in this case, what was his name once again? The man. Let me get his name just to be right. Whatever his name was. I must. This man could have been suffering from cumulative stress that made him go as far as from Excuse me, please. His name is Naftali. Oh, yes, Naftali. Naftali, Canada. That could have been what made Naftali to drive all the way from Thika to Eldoret to commit such a heinous act. It means throughout the relationship, there has been some problems that have not been resolved to some extent. So when these are not resolved, the stresses continue to accumulate, which might be disastrous in the case of what he did to his supposedly wife or godfriend. Yes. So I think that's the type of mental illness that disturbs most of us, that affects our daily lives and can make us react in one way or the other. Yes, that is very true. And I just like to say, you know, sometimes when it comes to toxic relationships, and I'd like to ask the public, what would you think if a man asked you for a date and you refused and he insulted you via text and maybe deletes your number? Or what would you do if you were happy in a relationship? And when refusing to give up your goods as a woman, the man becomes violent, maybe beats you or takes your life. Now, unfortunately, this happens on a day-to-day basis, these small scenarios that I've mentioned. And that's what the toxic relationships are about. Having one person that is having too much charge over the other person, too much control over the other person, and maybe dominating them in a negative way. And so what I'm seeing is that sometimes women do lose their lives. But today, we want to put an explanation as to why or what may be going on in the minds of the men that are perpetrating such acts against women. Now, Femicide, once again, we have said is a killing of a man, sorry, a killing of a woman by a man. And we'd like to once again remember that this happened in the case of Caroline Muatha, Christine Maunga, and Ivy Wengeshi. And today, we're going to focus on Ivy Wengeshi.  This does happen. Now, I'd like to know in that kind of scenario, when women are being approached by men, and we say no, I think we have now reached a point where women are fearful of saying no. What's your take on this? I mean, we're scared of refusing anything now. Well, if I look at such a scenario, probably it is somebody that you have been with for quite some time. I think so, because you cannot just meet somebody from the blue and he goes to that extent. Of course. Well, it depends on how much the person has invested in this relationship, and also how intimate or how he feels towards you, like how much he loves you, that kind of stuff. So when you put all this together, the man finds that he should take control over what is over the woman, whatever he feels that a woman should do should happen. So mostly it is general thinking. A man thinks that he is on top of the world, he has spent so much in you, he has given you all his time, he has loved you and expects something back in return. Apart from that, I think you mentioned something about narcissism, which means self-love. Narcissistic or narcissism. Yeah, self-love, and you want to show people that you are capable of doing something. This is a characteristic or a type of behavior that not only men, but also women have that can contribute to what is happening now in our daily lives, especially the relationships that are coming. Would you say that our men are becoming more narcissistic then? It's like, no, I must have respect, I must have this, I must have that. If I don't have it, I will take a life. Not all men. Narcissism is a personality trait. Not everybody is narcissistic, but it can contribute to what these men have been doing to their fellow lovers. It is not a must that you have to be a narcissist to do such an envious act. It is also dependent upon the economic situations that are prevailing at the current times. So considering how much, as I said before, how much one has spent, how much time you have given yourself to your companion, and the stresses involved in life can lead to people behaving the way they are doing at the moment. Right.  And when we're talking about men such as Naftali, people who drive from tikka to elder without changing their minds, there are words that have been thrown their way by other, I guess, people that are interested in the psychological field. I'd like maybe for you to explain to me and to the viewers the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. And why people have chosen to use these two terms to describe Naftali?  He behaves weirdly. Strangely. Strangely the way he did, you know, socially it's not acceptable. There are so many examples. Someone who does not behave in a way that socially acceptable. That socially is acceptable. That's a sociopath. That's a sociopath. Yeah. A psychopath means, you know, it's related to the mind. Right. Yeah.  Right. Mental illness does not mean you have to be taken to Madari. You know. Of course. There are illnesses that we have that we can be working around with. We look normal, but we are not. Yes. So this is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. A sociopath with socially unaccepted behaviors and a psychopath with mentally unaccepted behaviors. Right. So this person, because he is undergoing a certain kind of strain that we don't know, he could have exhibited both. He exhibited? Yeah. He could have exhibited both personalities. Both sociopath and psychopath. Yes. Because you see, driving all the way from Thika to Eldorette means he had something set in his mind to do. Yeah. That nobody could stop him. Yes. You know, you cannot be angry for that long. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. At some point he'll change your mind. He'll change your mind. Yeah. He never did that. Right. Yes. And that is why when we began this show, I talked about cumulative stress. Right. This could have led to anger that cannot be resolved. He was very angry, you know. Yes. And nobody could stop him from doing that. Yes. So this is something that he has put in his mind and has been happening for a long time, which has not been addressed. Yes. So that is what leads to what has been happening both socially and psychologically. And now that we've discussed the differences between sociopath and psychopath and why Naftali has been called some of these names, now I'd like us to move along to maybe the mindset of an abuser because sometimes abusers tend to be either sociopath or psychopath or both. And in the mindset of an abuser, if I could put the mindset of an abuser in one line, it would be, it's you that made me do it.  It's your fault. And I'm trying to kind of look at every single area. If he's not, if such people are not psychopaths, they're not sociopaths, they're not, they don't have depressive symptoms, they don't have schizophrenia or maybe it could just be an instance that this guy is an abusive man.  And maybe we can delve into the mindset of an abuser where the man says or the woman says, it's you that made me do it. Or where we hear in relationships that are toxic, like we started off by discussing, there's a thing that we call being made mad or making mad, which is where normally the man tries to try and make the lady look like she's crazy. If she, the woman approaches and says, I know you're cheating on me. I have this evidence and this evidence. And I'd be like, no, you're crazy. You're mad. And so that sometimes the psychology is called making mad. And maybe we could discuss these things, both blaming of the victim or making the, trying to, you know, make it seem as if you made me do it in the mind of an abuser. Could you open up what happens in the mind of someone who is abusive, who has decided that it's your fault? Well, I didn't get the last beat of it. Right. When it comes to the mind of an abuser, who has decided that this is your fault? The reason I'm going to take your life, it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It's your fault. You know, and this is where they tend to get most of their basis from.  And this is why one is an abuser, one is a victim. So can we touch on the mind of an abuser and ask ourselves if Naftali was an abuser, what could have been going through his mind at that particular time that he was driving and when he perpetrated the act? Well, in simple terms, we are just talking about the stresses that we have in life. There are very many types of stresses in life. We have day-to-day stresses of life. These are things that, by the end of the day, you get to have a solution to it. For example, when you wake up, you talk about like, what dress am I going to put on? Will I have lunch wherever I'm going to? You know. Well, but by the end of the day, you will have found a solution to whatever stresses that are disturbing you. These are called day-to-day stress. They are not very serious. Okay? Then what we talked about is cumulative stress where, you know, so many types of problems that you have left to accumulate, but they have not been addressed. This will lead to a cumulative stress or post-traumatic stress disorder if not well addressed. And then we have also critical incident stress. Critical incident stress is a type of stress that is spontaneous. It is not planned. You know, it is abrupt. For example, being involved in an accident but you don't die, you know, the reaction that you will have after a critical incident would be quite stressful or even a bomb blows up outside this building. How will we react? These are critical incidents because we have not planned for them. We are not expecting them. So we are reacting in different ways. You can run, you can cry, somebody can, you know, do all sorts of things. And then we also have post-traumatic stress disorder. These post-traumatic stress disorders or PTSD, they come later after the event has taken place. It can be a week, a month, two months, a year or something like that. The symptoms come later in life. And then coming back to your question, I think mindset is related to stresses or depressions that have not been addressed. It is not that this man has set his mind to do this and will have to do it. These are internal processes that he may not be under the control of unless they are addressed. So when we have not addressed these psychological problems, it becomes very difficult for the person to control himself towards the person he is going to abuse. Okay. And now we need to move on to the next question because when we do close, I'm going to ask what we can do in raising our children so that they can handle those stressful conditions so that they don't have to drive from one from Thika to Eldoret in a stressful condition. But that is when we close. But for now, and we've also discussed victim blaming, we're now going to talk about in Kenya, when it comes to you being a psychologist, the divorce rates have also been increasing. Yes. Yes. And again, this topic is also kind of enticed with toxic relationships, and that's how divorce comes in as well. Yes. Now, apparently when we're talking in the beginning, I heard you said that sometimes people need to be invested in these relationships. You must have spent some years in these relationships. And in the case that you've done that, sometimes you spend 10 years in a relationship, not just relationship. You've been married. You've been married for 10 years or more. And what happens is you divorce. And just because a lady has maybe asked for a divorce or something, if we are to take such matters into our hands and decide that this is a femicide case, I should take a life or whatever, because I've invested 10 years. I've built that house because of her. We've raised children. I've paid their school fees. Those children are now about teenagers. Then this man takes into account everything that he has spent, and he loses his mind for a second. And he gets angry.  Can we touch on that? Because sometimes then we say femicide is justified in Kenya because of such things. Femicide is actually justified in Kenya because of investment. There is no way you can do that to me. That's my property. I've paid this. I've done that. There's no way you can get away with that. And they take your life. And that's how femicide is justified in this country. And maybe we can talk about divorce and bring that in and say, when it comes to marriages, what if we're to do that? Would there be any Kenyan left? I mean, if we are to say, because of this, let me take your life. You've invested. I mean, what I would talk about in relation to what you have raised, mental health is an area that has been neglected in Kenya and in Africa as a whole. It is a very, very important sector in the outside world, the Americas, go to Europe. All these developed countries give mental health a priority. Even in schools. Yes, even in schools. Because a healthy mind will produce a healthy generation and they work outcome as well. For example, you cannot be here, all of you, if you're not mentally healthy. Yes. Even if you are, your performance, if you have low mental health, your performance will be very low. Meeting objectives will be very hard. So what we are lacking, that is leading to what you have just talked about, divorce and that kind of stuff is that we need to focus on mental health of our community, especially this country and Nairobi in particular. The lifestyles in Nairobi here is very difficult and challenging. So when you are confronted with the smallest thing, so far you become irritated. You lose your mind. Very tiny thing. Some of these things that result to people seeking for divorce, as you have said, could be displacement.  There's nothing I can do to you. What do I do?  Because I scolded you. Yes. I cannot do anything to you. I go to somebody that I can manage, which is always once wife or the children.  Mis-displaced anger. Yes.  It makes you feel all right. Other examples are like if I want to buy a car, then I ask how much it costs. They tell me, like, it's 10 million. I know I don't have it, but I want to feel better. What do I say? After all, it's a very old model, you know. It's out of fashion. Why is it 10 million? It's old. So I'm making myself feel comfortable with the situation in which I am. So coming back to divorce cases, we have not addressed areas of mental illness. So if we address all this, you'll find that there will be a deduction in the rate of divorce, the rate of killings between couples, and the rate of, you know, dropping out of school and other antisocial behavior. Let us just focus on mental health in each and every sector, be it at workplace, at home, or even in schools. This will reduce the rate of antisocial behavior that we are experiencing every now and then. That is some very powerful advice. And lastly, maybe we can just, as we wind up, our last question, my last question to you would be, maybe we can touch on parents who are raising their children right now. I feel like, since we said in the States and in Europe, mental health is something that is taught in schools. There's something like depression, there's something, so that when it happens, you're not too surprised. Yeah, not surprised. It's something you have handled. I mean, you have come across it before. Yes. And so our last question would be, for our parents, how can you maybe give them some advice on how to bring up their children, on how to handle stress? Because also our generation doesn't know how to handle stress. Stress management in our generation is very low. Somebody gets stressed, they go and self-medicate by alcohol, drugs, whatever. Stress management is low. How can parents raise children to handle life, handle the negatives of life, the ups and downs of life, the rejections of life, because we rejected you will be at work, everywhere, with family, with relations, you will be rejected. How do you take it? How can you raise a child to be strong enough? Yes. Well, it's a very good question. What I would say about this is, apart from training the child on stress management, which most households don't know, it is my suggestion that mental health as a unit should be incorporated in schools from early life, maybe standard one primary to secondary. This is where we have always been neglecting this area. So we grow up not knowing how to manage stress. People know how to manage stress when they go to colleges and they are trained on what is stress and how do you manage stress. So for the parents, I think the community should be sensitized on creating support groups and encourage our children to join these support groups. Support groups could be in churches, could be among the family members, people who you go to when you want to, when you have a problem. It can be our community leaders. So incorporating mental health in our curriculum will help reduce or train the people on how to manage the stress and also talking about it if you have an idea. But the only problem is that we are less educated on that field. Mental health project or programs should be incorporated in our educational curriculum. I think that will be the easiest way to make the children grow up knowing how to manage these stresses. That is very true. Yes. I'd like to thank you for your advising expertise on this particular topic, Dr. Ogonda. Thank you very much. And thank you for coming to the show. You're welcome. Yes. And if any of our viewers have any questions or any views about what we've discussed, please remember you can reach us on our social media handles. That is Y-254 on both Facebook and Twitter. And then on Instagram you can find us on Y-254 underscore channel and I can be found on Twitter. This has been a wonderful talk. Make sure you hashtag one in the morning, hashtag help on Monday. And maybe the last word I could say is as parents who are listening or any government officials who are listening, we need to incorporate mental health into our curriculums at a very early age, studying at the primary school level. And so that our children can grow up knowing what to expect and how to handle stress properly. Thank you so much for watching.