Good evening, everyone, and welcome to this special online edition of the Festival of Politics 2021 in partnership with the Scottish Parliament Think Tank Scotland's Futures Forum. I'm Bruce Adamson, I'm the Children and Young Peoples Commissioner Scotland, and I've also had the privilege of being the chair of the European Network of Ombuds Persons for Children this year. Yn cael ei gweithio, mae'r panel yn cael ei gweithio ar eu cynnig o ysgolion cystafol a'u cyfnodol. Mae'n adon ni'n dwylo i'n gwybod hwnnw sydd yna gael gwybod i chi'n gweithio ar gweithio'n gweithio. Mae hwnnw ymddangos wedi'u panel i'r cyhoeddiol. Ond y gweithio'r gweld yn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio hynny. so pieces forward in online is drawing on our tech beings who have published to me. We want to see your questions and your comments in the chat. You are very much part of the discussion, as well as our experts' speakers. Again two very important people who are joining us are our two BSL interpreters, Heather and Bruce. They will be helping us all to make sure that we can communicate effectively. Thank you so much to them in advance. Felly, mae'n gweithio i ei gwrthoedd gweldio am ymbu yn edrych i chi'n ymweldio i chi'n eu gallu gylliド較io ar gyfer y gwrthoedd yn ymweldio? Ég emiddi yn ddwybod ni'n amdarnol, os ymrwybod i chi'n gweithio ar y gwaith? Gweithio ar gyfer y gweithio â'r groffeyb ynegol, a oedd yn amser i gyd-dynnu gan ond o'r gwaith iawn ac yn oedd o'r llwythydd? Mae'r panhleidau yw i ddim yn gweithio mewn gweithio a chyroes aeth yn gweld i'r siwr. Get involved in the chat, when you do, if you could put in where you are, whether that's in Scotland or somewhere else, and also stating your name as well. So we get a good sense of where you're joining us from. I'm exceptionally excited to be introducing you to our four amazing panellists. We have Emily Farquhar, who is an operational volunteer for 2050 climate group, and she also acts as the 2016 volunteer ambassador for Edinburgh and the Lothians, so you're very welcome, Emily. We also have Liam Fowley, MSYP, who is the current vice-chair of the Scottish Youth Parliament. Liam was elected as an MSYP for Kilmarnock and Urban Valley in March 2019, and we have Professor Dave Ray, who is chair of carbon management and education at the University of Edinburgh. He's also the director of the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute and a policy director at Climate Exchange. You're very welcome as well, Professor Ray. The final member of our panel is Professor Pete Higgins, who is a professor of outdoor environmental and sustainability education at the University of Edinburgh, and director of learning for Sustainability Scotland. It is great to see you all. We've got this great panel. We've got all of you. If you want to join in online on Twitter, the hashtag for the whole Festival of Politics is hashtag FOP2021, so you can join in there. Within this session, as I say, go on to the chat, give us your name and where you are, and any comments or questions, very welcome. Education and sustainability are closely linked in human rights terms. I've got the best job in the world as children's commissioner because it's my job to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people across Scotland. In terms of human rights to education, the purpose of education is to develop all children and young people to their fullest potential. The Convention on the Rights of the Child specifically goes into the fact that the development of respect for the natural environment is a specific requirement on the state in terms of education. We've seen young human rights defenders and young environmental defenders really leading the way in terms of our understanding of what needs to change in terms of sustainability. This link between education and sustainability is something that's really important in human rights terms. I'd like to begin by asking each of our panellists to summarise reasonably quickly some opening remarks on what is the role of education in building a sustainable society and what does that look like. If you don't mind, I'll come to you, Emily, first and then we'll go through in the order that I introduced you is probably a good way to start. Emily, I'll pass to you. For me, the main purpose of education is to provide people with the knowledge, the skills, the values and the morals that they need to integrate into and contribute positively to society. If you translate that into the context of building sustainable societies and think about how we do that, the role that education can play is to equip learners with the knowledge, the skills, the values and the morals that they need to uphold sustainable and socially just patterns of living throughout their lives. What that looks like for me in practice is schools and other education institutions across the board adopting a learning for sustainability approach to their teaching, which incorporates global citizenship, outdoor learning and sustainable development education as well. Ultimately, with the aim of producing well-rounded people who understand and appreciate their environment, culture and heritage and who also have a strong connection to nature. I think that if we can achieve that across the whole of Scotland and ideally across the whole world, the result will be a population who understand the significance of their choices now and in the future as well, which will vastly reduce the risk of irreversible anthropological climate change and various social injustices as well. That was a well-rounded introduction to set off our discussion. I will pass now to you, Liam. I think that it would be really important to have my automatic response there. We have obviously spoken with a lot of young people. It is all about our organisation here to represent young people. Overwhelmingly, young people say that it is individuals who have the responsibility when it comes to tackling climate change, but they need to be supported in doing so. We cannot just all be climate experts because it is a very complex subject and young people themselves will admit that. The complexities of climate change are vast. Being supported into knowing how to tackle climate change is a really important one. The learning for sustainability action plan has obviously been published and things like that. That is a really important element there. It is about addressing the needs of young people there as well. Learning that an adult may have to do has gone through most of his life is going to be vastly different to that of someone who is in secondary school. In schools themselves, there needs to be more of a well-rounded approach. All subject areas should have a responsibility there to discuss sustainability and climate change because they are all interlinked no matter what classroom you go into. That is a really important element. Ultimately, young people need to be supported in learning how to live systemally. Brilliant. Again, I am coming through strongly the idea that everything is interlinked and should not be pigeonholed. I am passing now to you, Professor Reign. Thanks, Bruce. All the best things have been said already, Paul. Pete has to come after me. I have a huge amount to add to what has already been said other than admitting my own bias as someone who loves teaching and as an educator. It is fundamental in terms of a sustainable future for our planet, not just the people on it but our natural league systems as well. Education is at the heart of all the sustainable development goals. If we look at the challenges that we face throughout human history, we have got through them well where we have had good information and good education and we have really faulted where we have not had that. The pandemic is an ongoing example of successes and failures. I think what it looks like for me is we have talked about integrating things. It is really that systems thinking. This is at every level in terms of the lifelong education. It is being able to understand the links between what you do and the implications of that. Everything that we do in our lives is linked to what everyone else is doing and to those natural league systems. That systems thinking is at the heart of it for me in terms of realising that sustainability through education. Brilliant, thanks so much. I think again that link to the wider the sustainable development goals, the wider human rights framework is really important as well. Education is often described as a human rights multiplier, which I think is really important that education is sitting right at the heart of all of this. The tough job now, Professor Higgins, is to come last in a panel of four. I do promise I will switch the order around as we go so you will not always be following but I know you will have some great things to say anyway. I do not mind a tool, I could just say what they said and finish there. I will say a few things. There is a quote that I am very fond of and it goes a bit like this. The role of education is to form the citizen. The citizen is a person who, if needs be, can refound civilisation. That may seem a bit overdramatic, though some would argue that the current twin climate and biodiversity crises suggest that we are at this point. I pretty much believe that we are. We really have got a few years to deal with the issues that we face today. However, even if we are not, the idea of the ultimate purpose of education being to help, civilisation, move forward, respectful of current future generations and of global biodiversity, upon which we utterly depend, seems to me to be entirely logical and moral and a beautiful thought. As for the focus of education, Emily said that she used the core capacities that we have talked about in the development of learning for sustainability as a concept for Scottish schools. I have really nothing much more to add other than the idea that we think of ourselves as respectful of the natural world rather than just users. Or even conservers or managers. We need to develop that notion of respect with regard to the natural world as well as with all others on this planet. Thanks, Bruce. Brilliant, thank you. I think that everyone watching will agree that that is a fantastic starting point for us all to build on. Let's move into some questions now. There's a few that I've got here and I can see people in the chat are already starting to engage as well. My first question would be around the quality of education. How important is quality education for children and young people helping us all make informed choices about our own impact, but also perhaps reflecting on how we engage with systemic issues and engaging with governments as well. How important is the quality of education there? Emily, do you want to go first again? Of course, no problem. Of all the investments that are needed to support sustainable development, few are more important than ensuring that everybody gets quality education. Quality education prioritises teaching equality, skills development, building emotional intelligence, provides adequate infrastructure for learning, learning equipment and prioritising knowledge sharing. That is important because I believe that a person cannot make a proper choice without the proper information and the proper perspective. So making sure that we provide everybody, both adults and children and all sorts of learners with a quality education is vital to ensuring that people are able to make informed decisions on the impacts of their actions. Brilliant. Thanks Emily.  Do you have any thoughts around the importance of the quality of education? I've got loads. It's really important, ultimately. What's important to recognise is that young people don't just learn in a classroom, in a school. There are other forms of learning in formal curriculum, for example, in youth work. All play a really important part in supporting the young person's development and learning experience, especially when it comes to sustainability. If we get young people outside more, it's much better than being in a classroom and learning bed. Ultimately, it's super important to make sure that young people have a say in their education and co-designing of that curriculum. They know what they're going to be learning about and what they've got an active say in how they're learning as well. I think that are all really important parts. Young people very much have to be on this journey. Obviously, young people are very much at the forefront of this as well. Young people have to be brought along with us on this journey and not be told what to do when it comes to this. As Emily had rightly said, you can't make informed action if you don't have that learning base. I think that's a hugely important point. Again, that point about participation and making sure that children and young people of all ages are actively involved in designing and being part of how their education is delivered inside and outside the classroom. A good opportunity to come to you, Dave, in terms of what's the importance of the quality of education. What makes quality education? All the things that have been talked about, but one of the key things is investment and support in teachers. That is something that is obviously fundamental. You would think that it would be a given, but in terms of where we need to get to, in terms of sustainability and climate education, that just won't come out of Ether. Actually, that means putting the time into teacher training, into making sure that they've got the time and the resources. One of the things, so I mainly work on climate change. One of the things there is there's loads of resources out there on climate change, but the quality question is a really good one because actually not all of those resources might be as high quality as others. As an educator, having help in terms of that quality assessment, what's useful, making sure that it fits with what you've got to actually deliver in the classroom, that's a vital part of where we're starting to get to, but we need to do better on that so that when you're in front of a class, whether it's out on a field trip or in a physical class or online, you feel confident to be able to deliver that education in a high quality way. Absolutely. I think that's the really important part about supporting the system and where the support needs to be and the duty on the state to provide that. Pete, can I bring you in here on that question around the importance of quality, but also maybe get any of your reflections on the quality and effectiveness of what's currently available in Scotland? Yes, thanks Bruce. I think that the notion of quality always tickles me really because with regard to education, why would you want anything else? Of course education has to be of quality, it has to be of high quality. We wouldn't want to offer anything else and yet there is a lot of patchiness out there really. When I think of this concept, I feel the need to locate it in the context in which young people are growing up and the world that we face now is a world of increasing complexity, where the issues that we face are interdisciplinary, involve social and scientific dimensions. So quality education has to address this complexity, interdisciplinarity and the systemic approach that Dave mentioned earlier, the systems thinking approach. I work quite a lot with teachers, both pre-service and in-service. Whenever I talk to groups of teachers, I say to them at the end, remember that you are the most important people in the world, really they are, because you might think that healthcare professionals or others are the most important people, they are if you need healthcare. Of course, where did they get their initial education? They got it through a school system and that is why school systems across the nation have to be equitable. They have to make sure that we can allow all people who need education into them without any form of prejudice or privilege, really. I hope that that has answered enough of your question for now, Bruce, before I start rattling on about all sorts of other things. I think we could all listen to you all night, so please don't apologize about rattling on. I wonder whether the panellists have got any reflections on maybe what Scotland is doing well in terms of education and what maybe could we learn from other countries and is there any examples that anyone has got about things that maybe other countries are doing that we could learn from, or things that Scotland is doing really well that perhaps we should be exporting to other places as well. That comparative value, given that this is a global challenge that we are facing and the real value of learning from others. The wonders of technology allows me to see you all, even though we are not in the same place.  Dave, do you want to come in there? Pete, I see you there. There is a lot of good practice around, through the climate change lens specifically. For the UK, the net zero strategy came out this week, which is a massive document that I do not think anyone has read apart from the people who wrote it. In there, if you go to page 200 and something, there is a commitment there for the UK to bring forward a strategy that aligns children's services, education at all levels with the net zero transition. That is good to see. We have already had those conversations in Scotland as well. I would argue that we are ahead of the curve in terms of knowing where those gaps are like we talked about in terms of support for teachers, the resources, etc. Looking overseas, one of the ones that I look at with MV is France. They have an office for climate education there, which is one of the UNESCO centres. Since 2005, they have had their environmental education mandate across their education system. You can see the benefit of that in conversations. Some of those who studied in 2005 are now teaching or working in universities. The understanding of the issues that we are facing on sustainability and climate has been mainstreamed. There are examples. They would say that they are not getting it perfect. That is definitely true. I think that they can learn from us in some respects, in terms of how we are particularly led by people like Pete, how sustainability has become something that has to be delivered effectively within our education system. It would be great if that happened down south as well. I think that we are at that stage where everyone knows that we need to do this and do it better, but no one is doing it perfectly yet. It is a very nice and diplomatic answer. I will come to you, Pete. I will add in to the question, something that has come in from the chat, which I am starting to see now from Bob Hill in Montrose, who has asked about how we add this into an already crowded curriculum. Is there an issue that something would have to come out of the curriculum in order for us to add this in? How does it all fit together, Pete? The first thing to say is that this is not my estimation, but Scotland is widely regarded as a world leader in learning for sustainability. When Emily made her first statement, some of the words that she was using referred very closely to the terminology used in learning for sustainability. This was an initiative of the Scottish Government that started in 2011, and we have now learning for sustainability as an entitlement of all learners and a professional requirement of all teachers. It is remarkable that it does not exist anywhere else, so all credit to the Scottish Government for initiating that and allowing us to work on it to develop it. It is also linked closely with the UN Sustainable Development Goals. That is not to say that others have not been doing really good work out there, and it is not to say that everything is perfect here. The current situation is quite patchy, some outstanding practice out there and other places where people don't really seem to see it as a priority. There are elements of that that I think that we can really improve. In terms of other nations, I would say that Finland is of course a world leader in education, and even though that is the case, it recently revised its whole education system to place sustainability at its core. Closer to home, Wales has made a great commitment with its Future Generations Act. There are other countries in a recent OECD review, such as Canada and Singapore, that did very well in terms of global competency. There is a lot of good stuff out there. We, in Scotland, are quite thoughtful in our approach to how we argue that we have a good approach here, but there are things that are quite unique. For example, both Liam and Emily referred to the importance of outdoor learning as part of our concept of learning for sustainability. That engagement with the natural world is actually pretty much unique and very powerful. The research evidence is clear. In terms of that lovely question that is very difficult to answer, the curriculum is crowded. I think that we need to think much more clearly about going back to the capacities of learners to deal with complex interdisciplinary issues, particularly through the systems thinking approach and how the subject disciplines become the servants of the core questions. There has to be some part of the education system that allows that to happen. That is precisely what Finland has done with its approach to the curriculum. It has said, yet we are going to teach subjects, but we are going to teach them partially, at least through the systems thinking approach. They call it phenomenal learning or phenomenal learning in Finland. We have the opportunity to do this at the moment because the SQA is being reviewed, revised and who knows what is going to come of that. Dave and I work in a university. Universities are culpable in requiring students to provide high-level grades in specific subject areas. We need to think much more carefully about the quality of thinking of the students that we bring into our universities, rather than worry just about the grades. I hope that that helps, Bruce. It doesn't, again. It resonates very strongly in terms of a rights-based approach. Liam, do you want to come in and comment on any of that in terms of what you think might be going well? Some of the examples that we have heard from Pete and Dave, some of the international comparators as well? I think that there is a whole lot going on. In many areas of Scotland, there are some very good examples of how it is going well. That brings in the issue that it is not consistent, but I think that individually it is going well. If I take it back to even training teachers, I am a student teacher. Throughout a lot of my learning, there has been discussion on how to integrate learning versus development and climate change. Just mentioning it now and relating it back on certain subject matters, but also how to start thinking about, as Pete was saying, an interdisciplinary approach, a whole-school approach, getting young people involved in making their own decisions in the school, and how can the school start acting more sustainably, making young people again? As I said before, bringing in young people on the journey with the adults and the teachers and things like that, to get them thinking about how we are making sustainable choices in the school as well, and we have things like parking stride that are starting to come in as well. That is about walking to school and things like that. It is not just about walking to school, we are going to learn about why we have to walk to school, what is it doing, how we are helping it and things like that. I think that there are lots of good examples across the whole of Scotland with that. I think that what we now have to start working on is joining the dots and making it more joined up and consistent across the country. So all young people are getting a very similar learning experience when it comes to, especially when it comes to climate change. Brilliant. Thanks, Liam. That is really useful again, as well as your perspective in terms of being a trainee teacher as well, but also the use of young people across Scotland through the youth Parliament. Emily, do you want to come in on that point? Yes, of course. I think that because I am not working directly in education, I am not a teacher. I think that my impressions of the quality and effectiveness of the education currently in Scotland will not be as maybe up to date as the other panellists, but I do feel that I might be able to provide a bit of an insight on my opinion because I graduated from secondary school in 2016, so five years ago. My experience of that going through primary and secondary school, I do not remember getting a lot of formal sustainable development education particularly. There was not very many discussions about anything to do with sustainability at all. However, what I do remember is a lot of outdoor education. That was quite a strong part of my learning. I am not sure if that was just my schools or if it has been mentioned, but Scotland does have quite a good focus on outdoor education and it is possible that that was what contributed to that. I do feel that that was instrumental in developing my personal connection with nature. That is a testament to the effectiveness of outdoor education in promoting sustainable behaviours and the importance of prioritising outdoor education. I urge all educators to take that into account when developing their curriculum and continue to build that into the curriculum in Scotland because I think that it is really important. Absolutely. We all very strongly agree with you there, Emily. Again, it comes through very strongly from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child when it talks about education, that important role about outdoor education and about that understanding and respect for the natural environment. We are also seeing a lot of good comments and questions coming through in the chat. Thanks all for that. I am going to weave a couple of those in now and I will come back to some of the other questions later. If you have put in a question and I have not asked it yet, we will come back to those. I was particularly interested in some of the stuff that you were saying earlier, Pete. Others were saying about learning for sustainability and how it infuses the whole of Scottish society, building our capacity to contribute sustainability at the local, national and global level. That is being reflected in some of the comments in the chat. Julie Marshall, who is an air, said that she thinks that there is a strong link between education, sustainability and creating a good society that crosses lots of boundaries from social justice, inequality and rights-based approaches. Mark Langdon added in some critical thoughts around saying, is there a risk that we are focusing too much on the answers to climate justice lying in individual actions? He suggests that that might be misinformed when our focus should be on systemic and broader issues and points to capitalism and colonialism being significant drivers of the issues that we are facing at the moment. Also linked back to a question from Julie Marshall, who focused back on teachers and the thought that how do we support teachers? More broadly, in fact, she is saying, the first teachers that children have are their parents, families and communities. It takes a village to raise a child and so outside of the formal education system as well. So there's a lot coming in, which I think links very strongly with what you've all been saying, but perhaps Pete, I'll throw back to you there then because I think this links very strongly with what you were talking about in terms of the plan that we've got in Scotland for learning for sustainability and bringing all of those different aspects together. I'll pass back to you, Pete. Sorry, that's a bit of a rambling collection of ideas, but hopefully you'll take some inspiration from it. I'll try and there are a number of concepts in there that I'd like to refer to, but I'll try not to take too long about it. I think the first thing is to say that Scotland's got a really long tradition going right back for basically the past hundred years in terms of trying to build sustainability into education, and that's grown over the last 20 years in particular to the point that we are just now. It's a big thing to do to try to build sustainability at that level and at that scale. We're all doing what we can, but we're on that journey now. How is it going? Well, I think that that process has been going quite well, but one of the things that's really helped has been the Scottish Government's commitment to the UN's sustainable development goals, which the First Minister signed up to the minute they were published, and then to build these into the national performance framework. So in terms of what we're hoping for our society to become, all you need to do is look at the picture of the national performance framework and you see all the same colours as the SDGs, but actually that needs action in each of these, and in particular it needs these to be integrated together through policy. And it's very easy to say, oh, this is the job of education without realising, it's also the job of health, it's also the job of environment, it's also the job of agriculture, forestrys, fisheries and food. So we need to be sure that our national policies are joined up and if we do so, I think we'll get multiple benefits that will infuse the whole of society. In terms of the issue of the individual having too much weight on their shoulders, I feel that very strongly. It's a point that Mark made and you referred to there Bruce. It's one thing for educators to help people to understand that our actions can have a significant consequence for other parts of the world as well as here at some time in the future. It is another thing entirely to encourage people to think, that means I need to know how to vote, that means I need to know what politicians are saying, that means I need to be able to interrogate their answers, their questions, interrogate their views and question them. And to be really thinking critically analysing individual who is suspicious of the arguments that people put forward until you're convinced. So it's that restlessness that I want to see in all of us whenever we see a politician promoting one thing or another or indeed we're exposed to fake news or whatever it might be. It's that critical thinking that will allow us to get there. And I want to see Scottish Government policy built around those sorts of values within the national performance framework and its policy infrastructure really. So it was a rambling set of questions and a rambling set of answers. I'm sorry Bruce. No, please don't apologise. I think that that was beautifully answered and I think particularly the link to the fact that Scotland was one of the first places to sign up to the SDGs and then took the further step of embedding within the national performance framework. And we've also seen more recent commitments to the incorporation of rights and so we've already got legislation which is meeting amendments on the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Childs, which has been interpreted to bring in a lot of concepts around respect for the natural environment and sustainability. But also we've got further commitments from Scottish Government to specifically incorporate rights around the natural environment as part of a new piece of legislation. We would hope to see next year and so some of these legal processes as well, turning some of that rhetoric into policy and actions, hugely important. Who else wants to come in on that? You can pick any one of those points that we came to but Emily, did you want to come at this stage? Yeah, I mean I think Mark Landon's comment about people thinking that the answers to climate justice lie in individual actions and that being wrong. I also, in the same way as Pete, that resonates with me a lot. I think that there's a lot of focus on pressure for action to be taken from the bottom up. We're always told that we need to sort of recycle more and turn the lights off more and travel less and things and those are all very true. I'm not saying I don't agree with that if I do, but I think we do also need to be teaching people in all levels of education that there is a big issue with the way climate action needs to be taken from the top down as well. We need to put much more of a focus on that in my opinion. I just wanted to say to Mark that I do agree with your comment and we do need to focus more on that in education. Brilliant, I strongly agree as well. Dave, did you want to come in at this stage? Yeah, I mean just like Emily says, it's kind of, and Pete said it as well. If we're thinking of it through the education lens, it is having that understanding of the system. It's that systems thinking. So, you know, you can, if you've got, I would count that as poor quality education if you end up thinking the only way we can tackle climate change is individual action, you know, in terms of recycling. That would be bad climate education because that puts a lot of pressure on you as an individual, but it's also not fact based because recycling is not going to stop climate change. So it is getting that understanding, that awareness of some of the issues in the system and there are big issues and that's part of that high quality education. It's understanding is top down and bottom up and actually it's not working like it should at the moment and certainly in terms of addressing the climate crisis. And you only get that by a good systems understanding. So it comes back to that high quality education question. Thanks, thanks Dave. And Liam, Liam, did you want to comment on this point? Yeah, I think I really did a point of clarification as well when I've stated that individuals being responsible. That was based off of research when we consulted young people aged 14 to 25. And that was a piece of work mainly focused on the reduction of pollution levels. And one of the questions we asked was who has the responsibility for reducing waste and pollution levels. And young people ranked individuals as being the most responsible. However, they also ranked local authorities, the governments and manufacturers being responsible as well. So just a little bit of reassurance and just redefining that.  And young people told us through those consultations that countries most responsible for the greenhouse gas emissions must be there first through just the emissions as well. So a point of clarification. On the kind of more wider thing about education again, I think there's not much more I'm going to add to what the other three members have said. But I think the most important one that I'll always reiterate is about that co-design approach with young people, empowering young people to go down their own route on learning and designing the curriculum with them through the formal curriculum, or more informal curriculum, or the youth work and outdoor education, things like that. It wouldn't be a pile if it had to be plugged on, I think. We have to protect the right to youth work and making sure that youth work budget cuts are not cut any more than they should be because youth work does play a role by one of the most important roles. And not only developing on people, but letting them learn and develop on terms of climate change education. I strongly support that point, Liam, in that investing in youth work and investing in outdoor education are fantastic multipliers of human rights. We know from all of the evidence that there are really good places to invest money in terms of making sure that we can build up really good quality supported relationship based work that can go on to ensure that we have fantastic results. And maybe I'll stick with you, Liam, and just picking up on a question again from Mark Landon and adding in a little bit of my own. He's commented on the risk perhaps that we're focusing too much on a curriculum which is about developing a workforce for industry at the expense of critical thinking and emotional or political literacy and wellbeing. And that links to a question of my own around the role of children and young people as human rights defenders. And I wrote to the directors of education just last month in the context of protest recognising that the UN's recognised that acting as a human rights defender and protest has a really high educational value. And I'd be really interested in views on how protest and education mixed together and how outdoor education, things outside of the classroom, how important they are in terms of the balance within class learning as well. And how much of this needs to focus on things like critical thinking, which I know many of you have spoken about and kind of emotional and political literacy, wellbeing, understanding of the environment. So Liam, I'll maybe stick with you on this point, whether you've got any views around that. Well, we're going to start with education, Bruce, we'll be here all night, but I'll keep it brief. I think, well, especially when you mention yes is my response actually in general, I think in terms of the curriculum and maybe focus too much on curriculum and assessment at times. We need to start moving to more of an approach of allowing young people the opportunities and powering them the opportunities to not learn themselves, but to find out their own opportunities and things like that and allowing schools to be there to merely guide them to get through that themselves. So, yeah, I think I agree with Mark on that point when you reference especially the protests and things like that. Those are really important things to young people because these young people aren't just going to protest to get out of school. They clearly are really passionate about this issue, they're really hearts in it, and if they feel that impaled that they have to go out in the streets, they're clearly quite up about it and want to show their support for it. That is nothing that a school should not be saying that it's not your place to do that, because it absolutely is. It should be a school's place to say, yeah, get out there and do it because that's what it's all about. Show for what you believe in and things like that as well. I feel like I'm banging the same drum here, but if we get young people involved in designing their own curriculum again, that empowers young people to think it's not just about learning to pass an exam, we're here to genuinely learn how to reach those, again, those four capacities that Bruce has spoken about. Those young people will tell you exactly how they think they want to go about doing that, and then with a little bit of guidance from teachers, they'll all get to that, no bother at all. There's a lot we can do in the curriculum, and I'm not going to keep going because I will be here all night. It probably starts with getting young people meaningfully participating in that co-design in the curriculum with them and making them feel like the decisions are made with them and not just for them. Brilliant. Thanks Liam, and Wendy Pring in the chat is agreeing with you strongly there and pointing to the opportunity that we've got with the redesign of education systems in SQA, but that's only going to work if we've taken a different approach rather than focusing on the current metrics around passing exams. Some strong agreement with you in the chat there. Emily, do you want to comment on that point? You've mentioned already a bit about education, and I know with your role at COP26 and the work that you're doing that you're quite passionate about as well. It's really important, and I agree with everything that Liam has said. It's really important that we have as much opportunity as possible for children to engage, like I said earlier, in outdoor education but also in protests and things like that, anything that brings them out of the classroom and engages them with the real world. I believe strongly in the value and the benefits to connecting with nature. Doing things like the Duvenbury award is very beneficial for me. Engaging in any sort of beach cleans and bushcraft and all that sort of thing is so useful. It's very clear, always has been clear, that academic teaching and academic assessments are not for everybody, but there's so much more to education. If we focus too strongly in schools on getting people to sit exams, that very traditional style of teaching doesn't work and you're not helping everybody to realise their full potential. I think that we need to get people engaged in learning in loads of different ways until they have the opportunity themselves as a child or as a young person to find the method of learning that suits them. Brilliant, thanks Emily. Again, the human rights-based approach to education comes through so strongly in all of that. Dave, do you want to comment on that point? I've been looking at the chat as well. We could go on all night like you say on this, although it's Friday. One of the points about this potential dichotomy between what we need to see in terms of that systems thinking and sustainability being embedded in terms of education, that being high quality and a dichotomy between that. It's narrative of providing the workforce for a new industrial revolution. I think there is a danger there that that new industrial revolution, the net zero or green industrial revolution, that can't happen without our education being around in one, which gives that critical thinking kind of education, that systems thinking for our school leavers for our graduates. That will undermine what industry needs. That point needs to come through. We've talked quite a lot about educating our students. We've talked about training our teachers. There's an education job to do with policymakers still. We talked a little bit about the patchiness of policy around the world. There's patchiness within our countries as well at the local level. That is an area where we also have an important role to build their capacity to understand the importance of this. I'm going to not name the government, but this is related to Sapphire's question about COP26 and some of the schools being shut. Wouldn't that be ironic if that meant that the schools can engage with climate change because they're not in school? In discussions about green recovery with one government, we're talking about climate change and sustainability and what a crucial part that needs to play in terms of coming back after Covid, which hopefully we will. The pushback was that because children have missed so much education, we didn't have time to talk about sustainability or climate change. That would have to wait until, I don't know, five years, 10 years, whenever the pandemic's over. That kind of understanding, we need to somehow address that. I know those conversations are hard to have sometimes, speaking truth to power. Actually, our students, just like Liam was saying, probably they're doing it much better than we are, but we need to keep the pressure on there too, because they're a key enabler for this to happen, not just in a piecemeal way, but actually in a comprehensive and consistent way. That's so consistent with what I'm hearing as Children's Commissioner. One of the things that many of the children and young people I've spoken to are really angry about is that the global pandemic that we've been faced with has drawn so much attention away from the very pressing issues of the climate crisis that we're in. And all of the broader discussion we're having around sustainability, which was a key human rights concern prior to the pandemic and dropped off the radar in a big way because of the focus on public health. Children and young people who've already been leading the way as young human rights defenders on this are quite rightly really concerned and wanting to bring back that attention. And I think that that's something that's come through really consistently from many of the young climate activists and young human rights defenders I've spoken to. Pete, do you want to come in on this? I realise, and also Dave, thanks for picking up directly from the questions as well. I realise I'm probably failing in my role as chair and we're having a bit of a broad-ranging discussion rather than a Q&A, but I'd encourage the other panellists if you want to as well to pick out anything from the chat in your answers, otherwise I'll try and do it. But thanks for that, and I'll pass to you, Pete. Can I first say Dave's point about educating policymakers? I think some policymakers are quite keen to be educated, others not. Again, that's where truth to power really matters. You really do need to tell them, they need to know about this stuff. But there's another community that I think we really need to work very much harder at, and that is the world of the media, and they really do need education. Some of the media misinforms, and there's one academic who talks about the collapse of the information ecosystem, which to me really resonates with the way things are going with the media. And we do need all of us involved here and people who think like us to think about how we might work with these communities. That's a bit of an aside, though a hugely important one, in relation to what I'd like to say about young people and their protests and what goes with it really. The first thing for me is to ask the question, when does a young person become a citizen? We're fortunate in Scotland that we have got a vote for young people at the age of 16. To me, that's really grown up. All countries should be doing that. But does that mean that young people are not citizens before they're 16? Well, actually, I hear a lot more mature thinking from 14 and 15-year-olds than sometimes I do from people my own age. So I think we need to be quite careful about being respectful of the ages at which young people develop and their voice in society. Educating in the real world is profoundly important because we teach indoors because it's convenient. I often ask education policy makers when they say, why do you want kids to learn outdoors? I say to them, can you explain to me why they're indoors? Essentially, what it comes down to is that it's convenient. What kind of basis is that for education? The subjects that we all learn are beautiful. I get all duey-eyed about cosmology or bits of biochemistry or whatever it might be, art, prose, poetry and music. The systems are beautiful too, and we need to educate around those. Finally, the idea of protest as being an educational endeavour. Maybe that's where the classroom is now. The classroom is the protest. The classroom is wherever the young people are, not just when they're in school. To think about what they can learn from wherever they are and whomever they are with is the mark of truly engaging young people in recognising the beauty of being a lifelong learner, which is what we have to aspire to. That's picked up so well on some of the things that are coming through in the comments. Kirsten Liske was talking about this kind of education as a lifelong process and how we engage with people. That link to the media that you added in there is really important. A lot around how we can make sure that learning happens everywhere. In terms of children and young people being citizens or rights holders from a rights perspective, that's from birth. Very young children are already able to engage in an active way in lots of these discussions and fantastic work by the children's parliaments and primary schools all across the countries and in nurseries across the country. These discussions are happening. I think that there's a lot that we can learn there. The democratic deficit is an interesting thing in terms of that children in Scotland, young people in Scotland, don't have the vote until 16 and then not on all issues. The South African Constitutional Court has ruled on this point saying that those young people who don't have the right to vote on things actually have additional protections for their right to protest because of that democratic deficit. The real importance of seeing that children at any age need to be involved in the way in which we make decisions and if they can't access a participative decision making process which often they can't and there's an obligation on decision makers to do much more of that. Then protest is a very natural form and actually is a very important part of their education. We're getting towards the end of the session now but I'd like to come back to one point on where we are and where we're going. I'd like your reflections on do we think that the school population now is more educated on building a sustainable society than perhaps their parents or grandparents were because it's built into the curriculum? And what do we think it'll look like in the future in terms of tangible differences that we might observe in the generations to come because we've got an education system which is committed to global citizenship and sustainability? How far have we come so far and where are we headed? Who wants to kick this one off? Emily, shall I come to you? The answer is for me in short, yes, I think that people are much more in general much more engaged with sustainability now than they were say my parents generation. I think myself and my friends are thinking and talking more about climate change and climate justice and social justice a lot more I think than I hear from my parents that they were at my age. So I think we've been largely successful so far in integrating that sort of education both in schools and also to pick up on Kirsten's point also that education is a lifelong process and I think actually beyond school we've got a lot of people engaging in discussions about all of these sustainable development topics a lot more now than maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago. So yes, I think we're very successful. I think in terms of where we're headed I hope that we're going to continue on that trajectory. It's very important that we do. We are facing a twin crisis of climate and biodiversity, the climate and biodiversity crisis on both levels and it's really important that we teach that to everybody in schools but also everybody who is potentially older and maybe missed that education in schools also needs to be engaged in a positive way with these discussions. So yeah, we need to just keep talking, keep the conversation going and trying to reach everybody. Brilliant. Thanks, thanks, thanks Emily. Liam, what do you think? Yeah, I think as you expect broadly agree with Emily, I think certainly more aware of the climate crisis. I think as with all age groups that are sectors of all those that are all very switched on in climate aware. And then there's the kind of middle ground that know about it and then there's those that are trying to just not take an interest in it and I think that's replicated at all ages. And someone put a comment in the event chat thing I just picked up about kind of lifelong learning and how education is not just the first few years of your life. And I think that's really important part, how do we reach out and again it's in the same lines as what Emily was saying is reaching out to not only young people but all ages to make them more climate aware. I think on the question, yeah, I think we do. Young people do have a sound grasp of it. Our campaign that focused on climate change was one of the most engaged with campaigns that we've ever run. And that probably signifies how aware young people are about it. But as I've said, we can't just, we're very much just putting the, of course we put the gas on but that seems like a terrible pun. And we're kind of in a much running, running towards it and trying to get everyone more engaged and I think that's a really important part. But yeah, pretty much the same as Emily to be honest. Brilliant. Thanks Liam and Dave. Yeah, so my favorite recent example was the climate assembly. If you haven't looked at their report then look at it but that was 100 people drawn from right across Scotland who didn't have any kind of specific knowledge of climate change. We involved the children's parliament as well. They tended to know a lot more but by the end of that process, wow, I mean they were amazing in terms of the level of awareness across the 100 assembly members already in terms of our first sessions. By the end of it, their recommendations went way beyond, I think, what any of us has kind of evidence, given supporting evidence was expecting. And I think that model is one which somehow we need to replicate across the whole of Scotland because that gave an opportunity for that lifelong engagement with the evidence and that ability to reflect on what needs done through those contexts and the expertise of people from across Scotland in different communities in different sectors. And that's going to be a kind of a hard job because we can't do a climate assembly for everyone in Scotland at that level, you know, just in terms of centrally. But actually that kind of model, having that across all the regions of the Scotland, I know some communities are already doing it themselves and actually supporting that, that's how we can essentially deliver that quality education, that quality understanding, high quality understanding, that systems thinking in a way which isn't just about, you know, we should get it right in schools, absolutely, but a lifelong point is so important. And I think the assembly around, particularly around the climate crisis, that approach could be really powerful. Certainly it was a great process to be part of this past year. Brilliant, thanks so much, Dave. And Pete? Yeah, I tend to be an optimist with regard to where we are just now and where we might be. Certainly in Scotland I think we've got the basis of a lot of good stuff going on. As Dave said, it's expanding that to a grander scale, which is really important. How do we do that? And I think one of the ways that I think about this is in terms of what I would do for my friends and my family. You know, if I think about the world that I live in as being something that I have that intimate connection with, then I'm prepared to do a lot for it. And I'm not meaning at a fairly superficial level. I think understanding is one thing, but then the actions that we take, not just in terms of the small daily issues that we've been talking about, but those issues to do with representation, voting, all that kind of stuff, I think is really important. And I think we're at a good point to do that. I think the structures that we have within Scotland assist in that process, really. I think the other thing that is really important here is to recognise that there are benefits. We haven't talked quite enough about the positive benefits of doing these things, not just for ourselves and for future generations and for the world's biodiversity and its future. But actually in the here and now, the health and wellbeing benefits of spending time in nature, working with other people in a community of interest, and actually acting. And there's one person in this screen here that you can tell I work very closely with, Dave Ray, Kirsten's another person I work closely with. Amongst others, I do stuff for ideas and I do stuff for people. And the collection of those two things together brings me to a point that I'm willing and able to commit and I see the benefits of doing so. And I think we just need to work much harder at growing the capacity across communities to do that. I think that combination of optimism and inspiration and needing to do more is a great way to end because we are unfortunately out of time. So what a fantastic discussion that's been and I know these discussions will continue in other places as well. So thank you so much for all of you who have been engaging online. Thanks so much for all the active questioning. But I'd like to, if we're in person, I'd be asking everyone to join me in thanking all of our panellists. So please do that from your lounges or wherever you are. Please do show your appreciation to our amazing panellists. Thanks to the Scottish Futures Forum, the Scottish Parliament for working with me in my office and putting this together. And particularly our panel. So Emily, Liam, Dave and Pete, you've been absolutely incredible and I know you will have really inspired a lot of people to engage more with this issue and have more discussions. In particular, thanks to Bruce and Heather, our BSL interpreters. We really appreciate that support in making this much more accessible. And so thank you for your hard work this evening. And I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that later on today we've got more discussion as part of the Festival of Politics. The session on Scotland's marine life and the health of our seas is starting right now, entitled Should We Stop Eating Fish? And then over the weekend you can join a number of free online events, discussions on just transition, fast fashion, diversity in politics and a fantastic conversation with Professor Suzanne Simard, who's a world-renowned scientist whose revolutionary work on the subterranean world of trees is the subject of a Hollywood film. And so please get onto the website, enjoy engaging with those and please join me in once again thanking Pete, Dave, Liam and Emily for their fantastic contributions today. Please continue engaging with this conversation and have a good evening and have a good weekend all.


What's going on everyone? I've got a brand new movie review for you guys today. Today I'm discussing one of the most surprising films I've seen all year long and it might just be one of my favorite films as well. It's called The Hate U Give. U Give is a brand new crime drama about an African American girl named Star Carter who is constantly switching between two worlds, the poor mostly black neighborhood where she lives and the rich mostly white prep school she attends. The uneasy balance between these worlds is shattered when Star witnesses the fatal shooting of her childhood best friend Khalil at the hands of police officer. Now facing pressures from all sides of the community, Star must find her voice and stand up for what's right. And let me just go as far to say I wasn't super over the moon excited about this movie, one being the trailer didn't get me hooked. I liked what it was portraying but it just looked to be a little bit cheese ballish and not the type of best trailer. But the trailer doesn't do this film justice and neither does the synopsis. This film feels like one of the most real movies I've seen in a very long time tackling a lot of issues that we obviously see on social media on news almost every single day on a constant basis but tackling it in a very realistic and real light where it feels and gives that emphasis a power to it. That is the best word to describe this film though is powerful and power. Reason all this kind of comes together isn't just because the film tackles these strong messages it's the way that they tackle them and the way the story is told and one of those great things that the story is told through is the performances in here. Two most notable performances in here though is a name that one you've probably barely ever heard of I'm hearing it for the first time and you guys this is going to be a star is Amanda Steinberg who plays star Carter she is brilliant she brings realness raw and grittiness to this character of star who someone that it's one of the worst strategies to see one of your best friends die in front of you I've never had this happen to me but my god you seriously believe in it the amount of times where I had to hold back from crying it speaks words to her performance she gives one of the best performances I've seen all year long charming adorable but at the same sense real one of the other big performances in here is Russell Hornsby who plays Maverick Carter her father and their relationship is just excellent it's one of the most believable father daughter relationships I've seen in film in a very long time but it's one of those performances that again feels real and feels powerful to it and it's just because of the relationship that it works but it's because of him and how great of a performance he gives he's one of those actors that shows up here and there and certain things you're like oh I recognize him oh I recognize him but my god this is the best performance he's ever given and I would not be shocked if the guy gets nominated for best supporting actor this year George Tillman Jr. who is a director who I'm not really been the biggest fan of after this film I want to see him tackle more stuff within this he tackles this movie in a very again real way but portraying it and melding all these different tones the reason this film feels so real though is because in a sense life is a roller coaster ride you go through one day being sad and then maybe the next moment something cheers you up in a second even though you're still gravitating and feeling that loss or feeling that sadness towards something sometimes things can cheer you up some things can go through and you have to just continue through life and in a sense this film isn't just tackling that whole issue it tackle stars life and how she's going about it she still is going to school she's still going to prom she's still living her life and so is her family and that's what she's going through but it feels real in that aspect because you're still living with her and that there's moments of levity where you're laughing where you're enjoying it there's one scene where her white boyfriend from the prep school meets her dad and it's easily one of the best moments in the movie and it doesn't feel like it's off tone at all feels like it's just centered in the right perfect moment and structure cover that aspect going to those real life issues that this film is tackling where it's tackling social media where it's tackling police brutality where it's tackling racism and all sorts of different levels in there there's so many things that you can dig and dissect within this movie to just look at and be like these are real world issues that are happening on a daily basis but they're happening in these daily basis and that there's something that we need to do film is a call to arms in a sense but in a way where it's not shoving it down your throat where it's not shoving it in your face but doing it in a sense where it's calling you it's calling you and raising all these issues and showing both sides of the light which I really appreciated that they could tackle that once again I have to say the film is powerful because of that it made me look at these real world issues in ways that I had already seen but even finding even more of a light on it you give is easily one of the best films of this year if not if like literally if the Oscars were tomorrow I would be shocked if this doesn't win Best Picture it carries fantastic performances all around one of the best cast of the year carries a great direction a fantastic script which I will not be shocked if this thing gets nominated for Best Adapted Script fantastic I want to read the book now so just melts all together a great message to carry out there to call to arms and just preach out there in the best type of way and I find the hate that you give a powerful movie that's real it's raw it's gritty it's emotional at times I had to hold myself from crying because I was so invested within each and every one of these characters I loved this movie so so much do not miss out on this no matter what you thought of the trailer no matter what your thoughts are on the film it's a film that you seriously cannot miss with all that said I'm going to give the hate you give an A it was almost a near perfect movie I do feel like the film was a little bit tad too long but with a pacing that really melds it all together where I was never wanting to check my watch I absolutely love the movie um you guys what do you guys thoughts on the hate you give are you guys excited for this movie have you been looking forward to it let's talk about it down below in the comments so you guys are looking to see other movies early this year check out sandwich on films also down below because right then there we not just provide movie news and movie reviews we also give out advanced screens that could be happening near you guys thank you guys so much for all the support this is easily like I'm stunned by how much I like this movie and I hope you guys like it just as much as I did so guys until next time stay classy


Pakistanists, we know that our enemy and they never want our development. Iran, Iran is also our neighbor country and they are using from Shia people in Afghanistan and each time they are going to create some problem for us when we look at India. India is a good country for us and they never want, they never want to create some problem but they are working because of Pakistan and we are and I'm coming to the United States. United States each time want to say that we are we are going to help Afghan people but this is completely wrong. What do you think should be done? What do you think everybody for example Afghan Americans or Afghan people that live in America or live overseas what do you think they can do to help with the development in Afghanistan? If you look at two I mean the Afghan people that they are living in the United States on Europe and they're thinking they're thinking very bad about about Afghanistan they're they're thinking that there's war on Afghanistan our families also United States in Mississippi and another they're also thinking that Afghanistan there's war and we never want to come to Afghanistan we will come in Afghanistan if Afghanistan faced a good situation I mean but they're they're also thinking bad and also if you look at to to the world all countries looking to Afghanistan that there's war and there's corruption they think that Afghans or very bad people in the world right but what do you think they can do to help what is your message to them what do you think is your what is your message to them what can they do to help with development or coming back like what can you say to those Afghans who live you know abroad personally what can you say to them? Yes I'm going to tell that this my message or this my challenge to all countries that Afghanistan will develop by their own hand this my message that especially for Pakistan that Pakistan never want our development and we will take inshallah our land from Pakistan this is my challenge to all of the world especially in Pakistan and I'm going to tell for for those countries that they come to Afghanistan for their own benefit and never want to develop but they will they will feel in their this I mean in their this idea this my challenge to all countries and thanks from your attention well and thank you so much and you as an engineer right you're you know you're going to be part of helping build up and and develop your country I mean is that part of your plan I mean what do you want to as an engineer do to help your country? Yes thanks a lot also when I was a child this was my wish that I want to be an engineer and now inshallah after one month I will complete my bachelor's in civil engineering especially in hydrotechnical engineering and inshallah I will help my people I will do that I will do something for my country I will do something for my people from especially for my Muslim people because I love my country I'm Afghan and the love is in my blood I love my country thanks from your attention thank you so much you're welcome thanks for calling my mom


This system is just not on a human scale. It's too big for individual human beings to have any kind of connection or agency. You know, honestly, I don't know what my representatives are doing. I don't really hold them accountable. Frankly, in the Assembly and the State Senate, I don't really are. I read the newspaper every day, and I didn't know who was representing them. And for that fact, I mean, something needs to change. They need to be held accountable for that same fact that me, Anthony Helena, who has no idea who represents them. We sized our Legislature 120 and 1879 when there were fewer than 700,000 people in California. I think it is really hard to have your voice heard when you're one of over 400,000 people being represented by a single person. Their ability to be able to touch the people, to connect with the people, to get on that personal level is impossible. You know, if you were a State Senator in California and you read two Twitter messages from every human being you represented, that would be like reading 25 copies of War and Peace. There is too many people being represented, so I do not feel that we are being represented correctly. We don't have such a thing as an urban Republican or a rural Democrat in California Legislature. They exist in the electorate, but they don't exist in the legislature. They don't listen to me, and I know that I've written, I've emailed, I've gone to meetings, and they say, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And that's it, because it's not their point of view.


Welcome back to the breakfast and last year in Africa we had straight to a second conversation where we'll be looking at the consent of the Omicron variant and all the COVID-19 infection. Now it's been recorded that Niger has confirmed three cases of the virus. We have a guest who joins us, the professional Professor Sunday Omilebou, who is a professor of medical virology at the College of Medicine, University of Lagos, and a hospital of virology at the Lagos University Teaching Hospital. He's also a consultant, a virologist to the Federal Ministry of Health. Good morning Professor Sunday Omilebou. Thank you for joining us. Good morning Professor Sunday Omilebou. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. It is my pleasure to join you. All right, so let's get your thoughts on the new variants and of course Niger confirming three cases. What do you make of this? The Omicron variant? Thank you very much. So we are just starting naming the variants because many more are still coming because we know that the nature of the virus is to change from time to time. So as long as we have the virus moving from host to host, so the possibility is here that we have new features coming, which we refer to as variants. So Omicron is a normal because it shows that the SARS-CoV-2 changes with different proteins on its surfaces, which are already in existence. All right, Professor Omilebou, so far the NCDC has confirmed them three cases of the three samples that were taken. Now we understand that one of them dates back to sometime in October. But doesn't this suggest that the variant has actually been circulating in Nigeria for almost two months now? And what are some concerns we should actually be aware of? Well, it shows that we've not been doing sequencing as we're supposed to do. Otherwise, we ought to have picked it much earlier. As we are picking, we have about four centers that are getting engaged with genomic surveillance in the country. And I'm sure we are all busy working. Hopefully by now, because most samples are now being processed, and we'll try and see how long we've been having Omicron in our own country. So that will feature in the next one or two weeks. As I'm speaking now, I know in Lagos here we're looking at all those positives, at least in the last two months, in our domain. So the fact that they picked it as high back as October, yeah, it's not impossible. It's not impossible. So many more variants are going to be seen as we move in with more genomic studies. All right, so we still have COVID-19 to deal with. And my question is, should workers who have not been vaccinated be disallowed from the office, as we have actually seen the federal government treating federal workers? I would not support questions as an atheist, but they should be engaged and be educated on the need for them to get vaccinated. The lack of Omicron is actually coming from those that are not vaccinated. So the virus will move into them freely, and when they move, they mutate, they change freely, unlike those that are already taking the job. But they are putting those that take the job into a danger, because when the lack of Omicron order, other variants emerge, their own so-called immunity may not be effective in controlling it. So that's the danger. So we need to cover all of us with the vaccine. If you want to make a huge success of the vaccination, that's my take. So how then do we address the issue of vaccine hesitancy? Because it seemed to be a huge issue, and that's why you find that number of persons who have not been vaccinated, not just as federal workers, but in different spheres of our endeavours. Yes, we have to be very cautious using the word hesitancy, where we don't even have enough vaccines to go around. So there should be a distinction between the two. Nigeria as a country should have enough vaccines available. And then of course, they will now follow you up with health education and jingles. People will come out. But we need not to talk of hesitancy when people are yet to get to centers where they can readily get vaccinated. So let's make sure that we have the vaccines available. Then I know people will move to it. And they need to be persuaded. They need to be educated. They need to be shown data that for them not to be vaccinated, they constitute danger to the rest of the country, so that they will not be taking the vaccine. Because it is true then, that variants get out. And once the variants come in, the immunity of those vaccinated may not cover it. That's the danger. All right, Professor Omilabo. Not so much is really known concerning this new variant, the Omicron. But from what we have had, it's highly transmissible. Since just when, how soon can we really know what to expect as regards the illnesses that this new variant can actually cause? Thank you. Yes, for now we know that it is highly transmissible. It moves faster. But when we are now looking at the symptomatology, the virus seems to be very mild as against what people were expecting, which is normal. Though we are still working on the virus to see further characteristics of the virus. But for now, the virus moves freely. But when we are now talking of the symptoms of the severity, they have not seen that one, especially from the South Africa that first reported it. It is still talking about the virus. You mentioned that we seem to be having some sort of sequencing. That's the word, the user challenges. Since we could not really detect, for example, that was taken sometime in October, we could not really know that time the Omicron has been with us for a while. What other public health challenges that we should be worried about? Professor Milla, are you still there? All right, we'll try and reconnect with Professor Milla. But then it is really, really something to worry about. The NCDC came out yesterday and said that we have three cases of this particular variant, the Omicron. But on further investigation, it was revealed that one of the samples was taken sometime in October, meaning that for over two months, this new virus has actually been with us as a nation. You also would want to agree with me that as much as we commend the effort of the federal government and all stakeholders in handling this virus, the COVID-19, we haven't really been really great at it. I mean, if you look at our response to it, number one, we're constantly talking about the issue of not having enough vaccines. Now, do you remember the conversation that we had here on this platform when we talked about the Omicron and the fact that the best way to it, and he, the professor has also mentioned this morning that the way out of it is to ensure that everyone is vaccinated. So the point is, do we have enough vaccine to vaccine? We're looking at a population of over 211 million persons, according to the latest data from the United Nations. So do we have enough vaccine to go around, to vaccinate everyone, to protect? Because if you look at the pattern in which, according to research and reports, how this virus actually works, it shows that for those who have not been vaccinated, the standard higher risk of contracting this virus, and when it gets in, it becomes more deadly and all of that. But it's not that it cannot be curtailed. So the point now is, would be, what are the policy measures that we have to ensure that all of this doesn't happen? I'm hoping that we get more response as soon as we connect with him. Now, we have seen countries and acting travel bans, and the question is, how effective is this travel ban to be over time? Yes, so travel bans over the years, I mean, especially with COVID-19 and other variants that we've experienced, has it been very effective? You also want to talk about there's also another pattern. You talk about contact tracing, how far have we fed with all of that? Yes, if they're all effective, it is very effective. So in our response, the fact that we still, do we have what it takes for us to, you know, dictate the virus? Do we have to send the samples to other countries to get, you know, the results? So all of this are some of the questions that we need to answer. But, you know, like everyone has stated that with the outbreak of COVID-19, when it came through in 2019, one would think that we would have actually been able to put, you know, the health infrastructure in Nigeria in place would have actually had policies, even with the budget and all of that. But he constantly just shows that we're not ready and we're not really prepared, you know, for all this. Let's pose the questions now to Professor Omilabu. Just before we left off, we're talking about some concerns that we have in the space of the, you know, nations and public health. You talked about not enough, you know, inequity when it comes to vaccinations across the world. But then again, when you were answering the question of Nigeria, having had to be leaving with this variant for the past two months, you talked about sequencing and other challenges. And I posed the question to you just before we went on that break, about what other concerns do we have to ensure that at the public health level, we actually do our best to ensure that Nigerians are actually secure? I think we have lost him yet again. So we need to try and get the professor back online, because these are the pertinent questions that he needs to address. Because we seem to, you know, be talking about the virus. We seem to be talking about people being hesitant about it. And yet we don't even have enough vaccine to go across the country. And again, the federal government is barring its workers from, you know, going to work. And, you know, it's actually a novel, at this point, I don't know if we should say COVID-19 is still a novel virus or the fact that we have new, you know, the new variant that we have, because we still have not understood, we're still yet to understand the patterns and the sequencing of how these virus actually get to work. And that's why, you know, research will continue to go until, would continue until we're able to have a grip over all of this.   Yes, have your sanitizers with you. And then, you know, the issue of wearing of your nose mags. Now, another major concern for a lot of people is that, I mean, we're at the festive period again. And, you know, there's a lot of conception, misconception, and all of that. But really, I'm thinking that we constantly stick with all of those procedures of washing the hands, maintaining that hygiene, and constantly wearing the nose mags, and, you know, respect the social distancing as much as we can, then get the vaccination. We also should be thinking at this point in time, we should have been considering, as, you know, the giant of Africa having, you know, the booster shot. But there's no way you're going to talk about the booster shot if you haven't, if you've not even gotten, you know, a lot of patients are yet to be vaccinated, taking the first dose and not to even talk about the second dose. So, but the fact that you're constantly dependent, you know, on the, when it's dependent on the international community and other parts of the world, you know, to get the vaccine is actually very worrying. And it's a big issue. So at this point in time, it still brings us back to the issue of saying, do we have what it takes? Are we putting policies in place at this point in time to ensure that we can handle our issues? Because we will blame them.  The United States would want to vaccinate our own citizens and every other person would want to take care of theirs before they begin to look at, you know, the third world country. All right. So Professor Omidabi, I trust we have you right now. We have been bantering concern in this particular variant. I just wanted to get your thoughts as we wrap up on this session, you know, the challenge, the consent that we had before we went of us, asking you what should we be focusing on our nations and public health, you know, approach? Yeah, thank you. You have been mentioning some of those options before us. I continued enjoying this discussion while the network pushed me away. Actually, public health should be the one driving the, we need to take the message to the nooks and crannies of the country that there is COVID. COVID is still very much around. And of course, the best option is for us not to even get it, not to get the virus or the disease is the one that is most efficacious. So you wouldn't need to manage it if you don't have it. So people should try as much as possible to keep to all those measures put up by the presidential committee, the face mask to be wearing it when going into the public, the issue of social distancing, then of course, and washing frequently. And of course, we should not embark on any trip to anywhere we feel that it's going to cause a crowd. So once we move away from all these places, we'll be running away from the virus. It's better not to have the virus than to be managing the disease. So that's the best way out of it. And then of course, as a country, we need to be monitoring the variant circulating in the environment. It's very, very important. We need to be monitoring the circulating stream in our environment. And then of course, people need more of health education. Health education, they need to let them know that COVID-19 is around. And people should try as much as possible to prevent themselves from contracting it. That's the best solution to it. Just before we cost it down now, do you think that Nigeria should then add travel bans, just as you have other countries? Or should we be looking at locking down? There is no cost for that right away if because of Omicron. There's no cost for either travel ban or lockdown. Because from what we see, like I said earlier on, there will be many more variants coming. All we need to do is to be monitoring them. Let's know those ones that will be more dangerous in terms of hospitalization. Now we are talking of Omicron. They've not been hospitalized in South Africa where they've had hundreds of cases. So as to tell us that all we need to do is keep monitoring our environment to make sure that we're taking a close monitor, checking all the strains circulating in the environment. That's all we need to do. We don't need to lock down. We don't need to put a travel ban. Indeed, we don't need to put a travel ban, as the professor has suggested, and that we need to just walk on our monitoring to ensure that we know just where we are headed. We must say very big thank you to you, Professor Sundi Omilabo, a virologist, that thanks for your input and your thoughts on this particular discuss. Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Well, that's the much we can take at this point in time. We do appreciate you for being part of the conversation and following the show 7 a.m. up until this time. We'll definitely come through tomorrow with the Friday edition. In case you missed out on any part of the conversation, it's all right to follow our social media, Facebook and Instagram. It's at Plastivia Africa and the new tip where Plastivia Africa live fire. I am Mesa Boko, have a great morning. And I'm Justin, acting as thanks for being a part of the show. Join us and the news talk of the hour by the hour.