Thank you for coming here, for today's talk. I know day two, great keynotes, and a huge place. Getting lost is easy here. So I'll just skip the title one. Like they say in Chicago, we are glad you are here. We are also glad that we could come here to share our stories. But more than our stories, we also want to keep this interactive, and so we'll try to get through what we want to present as soon as possible and listen to more questions or comments from the audience. Whether it is a story that I want to tell about this picture, but yeah, this science are everywhere. I don't think anybody would have seen this. If you have seen this, raise your hand. OK, this one person that has seen this. So they took a similar path that I have taken. What we are really going to talk today is the conundrum that we have about should we open source or not open source from three different perspectives, from a founder of a project to an engineering manager or somebody who's maintaining the project to a product management person. So before that, a quick show of hands. How many of you are maintainers of open source projects here? It's good to see some hands there. How many of you are looking at creating a product out of that project or making money out of that project? That's a lot more, right? So cool. We'll see if the journey that we had to convert a project to a product, what we learned in that process, and if that will help you or you have some things that you can share that we can take away from here as well. Before we get into those learnings, something happened around five or six years ago. And thanks to these people, of course, they did the Kubernetes thing. But they also changed what it means to be an open source company, right? I have not met most of them, but I've been watching them from India, getting inspired from their work. And when I started my startup back in 2017, a lot of things that I got inspired was learning from them remotely. So we're all in search for building unicorns, at least like if you have an idea and you want to go to investors. Investors will only find you if you have a potential of becoming an unicorn. And one sign of becoming an unicorn is either climbing up this ladder of sponsorship from startup sponsor to silver, gold, platinum, or getting acquired by one of them. But what these people did is it's not about building a product that gets acquired. It's about building a community. And that community builds the product and delivers that product to the end users. So that was an interesting change in the perspective of what open source means. It's not just about the code anymore. It's about the community that you built, right? So with that change definition, so unicorn is not about the money, but it's also about building a strong community around your project. We'll just do a brief introduction and then get into the learnings. Hey, hey everyone. Thanks for coming to our talk, Code, Chaos, and Cash. So in this talk, we want to talk about our personal experiences of how we have looked at building communities, business around those projects, and we want to share some of our opinions. And I want to throw in a quick disclaimer that these are our personal opinions and not of our employers. Yeah, that was very important for this talk because I don't know, it might be a little debatable. So I'm Anusha. I'm a technical product manager at Nirmata. So Nirmata is the company behind Kivarno. So if you all don't know Kivarno, it's a Kubernetes policy engine. Prior to this, I worked at VMware. So there I've worked on projects like cluster API and providers for cluster API. I want to give a quick introduction of Kivarno because in today's talk, I'm going to be sharing my learnings as a product manager over the past year at Nirmata. So Kivarno was donated to CNCF in 2020, but that is not the origin story of Kivarno. So obviously Kivarno predates me. That's why I have this information. I got this information from the founder of Kivarno himself, Jim Bugwadia. So the story goes like this. So Nirmata had a Kubernetes management platform and like all platform vendors, everybody was trying to build up a managed Kubernetes platform that had cluster management, app management, observability stack, and even security was one of them. So back then, an alternative to Kivarno was OPA, open policy agent. And if you're new to OPA, so you need to be able to learn a new language called Rego and write Kubernetes policies using that language. So the team wanted a simpler option to write policies. They didn't want to write it using Rego. And that is where they started with a small rule engine and Kivarno that we know today was just part of a backend service powering the platform. And the idea to donate to CNCF to make it open source was really a go-to market strategy for Nirmata. They just wanted to evaluate whether whatever they're building was right and testing it out in the open is a very good idea. So that is where Nirmata donated Kivarno to CNCF in 2020 as a sandbox project. So the graph that you see over here, during 2020 you see a lot of additions and deletions in commit history. That is where we donated. And then we are now an incubating project. Oops, sorry. We are now an incubating project and well on our way towards graduation. So throughout this talk I'll be sharing Kivarno's journey, Nirmata's journey and monetizing some of the aspects of Kivarno, how we prioritize different features across the enterprise solutions and the open source project. Over to Kiran. Thanks, Anusha. So I have at the opposite journey. I came from a startup, but now I am at VMware. I'm trying to build a sustainable open source project like how do you work on a strategy that funds the projects? But I'll also be sharing a little bit about my past journey with open source projects. One of them is OpenEBS. Like they say, if everything works well in the production, it's not that fun. When things break or when things are slow, it gets exciting. That's exactly the journey that I had with OpenEBS. We didn't have anything but an idea and then we decided we will do that in the open source because that was a fad at that time. Docker was just coming out. Like everything was open source. And I think investors also like the idea that open source is a differentiating factor. So let's do it in the open source. The graph looks very similar to any other open source project. You'll have a lot of churn in the beginning. And especially just around the time of meeting to CNCF, there's a lot of additional checks. So you'll do an additional churn of cleaning up the repositories and all that. We are still in the sandbox stage. There's a lot of stories about that to tell. I'll share that a little later. But one other project that we founded as part of my previous startup was Litmus, which was a spin-off from, it's a tool that we built to test OpenEBS and that itself became another project. And now that project has gone into incubation stage and it's on its way to getting graduated. Going back to this picture, the reason why many people probably don't see this is this picture was taken when I was roaming around the city and landed at an entrance to McCormick Place that was shut and it's not maintained. That's something similar that we experienced when we were working on open source projects. We have our ups and downs. We initially get to a place where you hit a wall. You don't know what to do next and you somehow figure it out. That's why we are here. That's why I'm glad that we are here. And Chicago is a great representation of this like pattern, right? Like it's very beautiful. Like I think right now we are here at the conference where we can take like beautiful walks, enjoy the city, but it's not always going to be like that. It will all hit like, it's popular for its wins, right? So what happened with OpenEBS was we started with an idea. We didn't know how to do open source. So we ended up listening to a lot of people on how to do it right. And the core functionality that we built in OpenEBS starts to change the moment we put it in OpenEBS and we just accepted a lot of feedback. And with every feedback we had to like fork and like do a lot of like iterations on that one. And that takes up a lot of time. And while we were like spending time on that, we also had like couple of like investors like usually fund you for like one or two years and you need to show something at the end of it. So we got into like these phases of like raising money for the next project, getting acquired by some other company, all of these things like hit us, right? So the learnings that we share are basically based on that like turbulence that we had. But also one of the good thing that we did was to keep us on track, to keep us on track from an open source, we donated it to CNCF. Doing it in the open source was one thing but keeping it in CNCF helped us to get regular checkpoints and somebody else other than our investors are the founders telling us what's right, what's wrong. And CNCF has this good way of like labeling the projects from Sandbox to incubating to graduated. One thing that I learned in this journey is you can go through these stages but you have to transform yourself along the way. What you do when you're in a Sandbox stage is not exactly the same that you do when you're in a project, right? And from going from project to product, you literally have to transform your like thinking about like the project, you probably need a new team also at that time, right? If that was like little complicated, I'm a huge fan of Game of Thrones. So this literally explains like our journey as an open source project founders. We start with like everything is possible. We can climb all the towers and all that but then we do fall at some point. And then we realize, okay, now we are in a project mode. We have like a lot of things to take care and we need like a lot of support from different people to get it up and running. And then maybe we just become like a saint or like, you know, our all-knowing person at that point. So then we get into like the product phase, right? So the product phase or how you define the success is a little bit interesting, so I'll come to that one. So just to give a snapshot of this one, right? Like, so this is like the trend that we see in CNCF right now. So this whole like trend also started getting published very recently but there's like a huge rise in the number of Sandbox projects that came in. We opened EBS and Litmus where I think like the 11th or 12th projects but now we have around 175 projects in the category but only around 24 of them are in the graduated state, right? So what does success mean? So graduation like CNCF definitely has a criteria of production usage and all that but I would like to call something as like an happiness generator, right? So you do an open source project but you also check what brings you happiness. Is it like the wealth that you generate with the other people or is it like the careers that you have created for other people, right? So I'm more on the side of the community and like, you know, growing the community and a lot of individuals that come with that and even if your company doesn't make any money you have actually generated wealth for like a lot of other people like that. Don't even know how to get started with projects, right? So that gives me a lot of joy. All right, so we know that projects go from sandbox to incubating to graduation or like an idea, project and product. So we'll split our learnings into these three categories, right? So anytime we start with an idea it's absolutely the best, right? Like you, that will solve all the problems, right? If that is the case we wouldn't have had this kind of a chart and you know, this had to come up, right? There's, you have to interwork with like all these other ideas and the moment like we have a lot of these projects we need a foundation that will help make sure like, you know, everything works properly and all that, right? So what I learned with the idea and Open EBS I don't know many of you know here. It was a storage engine. It was started as a single storage engine but by the time we went into CNCF and incubation at least the sandbox it had three engines not just a single engine and by the time we are like, you know today it has like eight engines that's basically, we fell in love with the problem but the way we accepted the feedback instead of like trying to iterate on the same idea we ended up like creating multiple engines and that's actually come to bite us right now, right? So there's more to talk about get married to the problem. So I think like rushing it, rushing in with a project to an extent that it, you know it now becomes like something that you cannot retract is something that we should avoid, right? Spend a lot of time in terms of learning about the community that is having the problem. Also like these are the lessons that we took away from our research when we were doing this open source, right? All the things that are on the left hand side are things that seem very obvious like things that we should like do, right? But what we learned is code, the code is a new marketing, right? You know we don't market like you shouldn't rush into like marketing like with a blog or like you know future looking statements about a project when you don't really have the code. The other thing that we noticed is even before our startup got into a stage where we could seek investment the major companies have tools that will analyze your open source projects and already rank in terms of, hey, is this a viable thing that we should like invest or look into it or not? So you have to be careful like I didn't know about this back then but when we tried to go for funding we realized hey, people ran the scan on our code when it was in the initial phases and then the initial impressions are really hard to like change. So that's one important, it's a double S word it gets contributors but it also pushes like based on the initial impressions it kind of like takes that away. The second mistake that we did was about forking the projects when we decided like hey, that community is not going the way we want and eventually what we realized especially like OpenEBS has one engine that's similar to Longhorn and we both started off like together. We were talking to each other but the way the data is connected to the devices and like another parts connect to the volumes there was like a disagreement in terms of like how we do it and then we decided okay let's fork this, right? That was a bad mistake like we shouldn't have done that, right? So spend more time engaging with the community gathering the feedback, it's okay like you know they will not accept it right away but if it works I think it will succeed, right? I'm not going to all of them but yeah. So definitely like a lot of ifs and buts but is it really easy decision to open source or not? From a contributor perspective, from like validation perspective, getting feedback perspective, yes it's all good but then there's also this thing about licenses and we've seen a recent history of like a lot of changes happening to the licenses that pieces of the community or like pushes the community away and all that, right? So I was chatting this to Dems like after coming here and I was like constantly in the flux of like changing the slides. So what he suggested was like more like a layered approach. Maybe you don't have to like start off like fully open source. Start in a layered approach, right? Like start with maybe like just joining the community talking about like a prototype or a demo that you have and if people are interested then start giving out like some kind of documentation or like the APIs to connect with the product and then eventually decide like how to really open source it, right? That was like a great advice I wish I had when I started these companies, right? So the second or the third thing, open source is for feedback. Second one is like how do you do open source? The third one, there's going to be differences. As you're on board, you just cannot do alone and you're going to like have co-founders and co-maintenors that come on board. It's very important to make sure like there's some principles that are set and that you agree on it. Like disagree and commit doesn't work at least with the core team, right? Like they end up like going into different directions and that was also one reason why we had like many engines there, right? So at least like these are the four things that we should definitely agree upon, right? Yeah, I think like I can't see the slide here but the great advice from Joe Guetta there as well. Again, like these are things I wish I had before. Coming back to the, once we decided we will do the project, right? Like we had a very small team and we automated like a series of stuff with the tools that were available. And one thing that we didn't realize is like how those tools are also backed by open source companies and those tools also changed their licenses and we ended up like instead of building our own core logic, migrating from one tool to the other, right? So this is also one place where I feel like CNCF helps, right? The thing that we should do from the start, especially if you're like building a startup is you're going to build what you measure, right? Almost like telemetry comes as like an afterthought. You don't know, like you don't base your decisions on anecdotal like inputs. There's going to be a lot of feedback that is going to come in. Use some kind of a telemetry to research like, hey, what engine, for example, in opening years, we later learned that out of all the 250k downloads that were happening, it is just one or two engines that were actually like the 90% of the downloads that were coming through, right? And that kind of makes it easy to kind of make the decisions. We put that in at a very late stage. They're like, again, like we look at stars as a way to like recognize the health of the project or like, you know, it's a thriving project, but I would say like, you know, you should put that at the end. It's a vanity metric compared to like the real metrics which are about the usage. Letting go is another like really, really important thing. The longer we hold on to things because we are going to think that we will hurt somebody, we are eventually anyway going to hurt if we don't have like a sustainable model built around like that particular project. So it's better to like let it go as soon as we decide, hey, this is not going to be the direction that we take. Again, like the lessons from the seven engines to like, we are now going to come down to only two engines in open EBS that are like really getting used. Thanks, Kiran. So, okay, so we saw like whether to open source or to just keep it in a source or, you know, follow a layered approach, but say, let's say you have decided to open source your project, but that's not the end of the story, right? That's just the beginning. You need to be able to build sustainable projects and not just that, you also want to monetize from these projects. Maybe monetize is the wrong word. You want to be able to build business around it. So what is the key to all of this? And the key is community. So how do you build the community traction organically? So it's definitely not a one-time marketing event.  There's a few ways to do this. I can quote examples from Kivir Noveran, suppose say typically all the open source projects have Slack channels. So you might have a Slack channel in the CNCF workspace or in the Kubernetes workspace. So make sure the maintainers or the people who are working on the project are always, you know, checking these channels, answering questions, because this really helps new user to use your project if they have any questions, get them answered and you know, that just builds trust over time. And also evangelize at events and conferences. So you can use conferences such as these KubeCon or even your local meetups, wherein you talk about your project, raise awareness about the project, get new users to try out your project that way you'll get quick feedback on whatever you're building and then nurture and grow new contributors. I think this is one of the key aspects of building sustainable projects because as a open source project, there'll be hardly say two to three maintainers or even if it's backed by a company or like a startup, there are like very few engineers working on the project. And as and when your project grows, the community grows, it's really hard for these two to four people to do all the heavy lifting and maintain the project and not just maintain, you have to also keep adding new features, make it more usable and so on. So that is where community plays a key role and it's very important to nurture new contributors, be welcoming to them and for this, you may need to write good documentation, maybe good test pipelines so that any new contribution does not break your project and also use opportunities like LFX mentorship. So that is something I've seen Kivano gain a lot from because most of the star features of Kivano are from LFX mentorship projects. So it's kind of a win-win for both mentors and the mentee, so make use of opportunities like that and do not get, okay, strategize the OSS project roadmap. So it's probably a good idea to treat your OSS project also as a product but used by the community. Like of course, nobody is going to pay for it, it's free, but it's going to help you in the long term. So treat it as a product and make sure it has a roadmap of its own. So typically I've seen projects use something like GitHub milestones wherein you define at least for the next two to three releases, what are the new features that are going to come up, what direction your project is heading in. So this gives an idea to the users, what they need to expect, they're going to be new features that they want to try out and so on. So be very transparent on what the roadmap is going to be and do not get pressurized to favor commercial versions or community versions. So almost all of the projects, there might be a few exceptions, almost all of the projects have enterprise offerings and your customer request might be very different from your OSS user request. So do not get pressurized just to prioritize whatever your customers are asking for because they are not the ones who are going to validate the newer features for you, the open source users are. So always make sure you strike a balance, I know it's hard, but we have to do it. One other aspect is maybe it's all good in theory, right? You can say, okay, I need to write better documentation but who has the time for it? Or I need to write better code, I need to do code reviews, who's going to pay for doing all of that? At the end of the day, it all comes down to a developer or a maintainer's time and you need to pay, somebody has to pay the bills. So, and nurturing new contributors, I want to be a mentor but, okay, give me something to be a mentor, right? I need some incentive to do all of these things. So that is where I think, what do I go to next? So that is where I want to talk about enterprise back to us. So like I mentioned, if not all, most of the open source projects are backed by companies today. It might be a single vendor or multiple vendors. So in case of example, Kivano, there are maintainers across companies but it is heavily backed by Nirmata because Nirmata's solutions revolve around Kivano. It is our core offering. And there are also huge projects like Kubernetes or even cluster API for that matter where multiple companies have vested interests in these projects. So they have built teams, even business units around these projects so that they can contribute to it. They can maintain it because they have the product suite depending on this core project. So, and what to expect from the community. So this I can speak from a, you know, product manager from a startup. We do understand that the open source project is completely free to use. We do not charge anybody for that. And we do gain, we do get value from it because we get insights as to how the product itself should be structured, what features to put into the product. All the insights come from the community, which is great. And communities, open source projects are a great place to test out new feature ideas because it's okay if you release something in beta and say something goes wrong. It's fine, you can release a patch and there is not really strict SLAs that you have to maintain. As opposed to a commercial offering where everything is, you know, completely SLA based and if there's any, there's no room for error basically. And I think while it is okay for everybody to consume your project, I think one ask, typically from the communities, if you're using any open source project, say something like Kivarnu for example, and say you are from a large organization. For example, all of these projects have an adopters list. The adopters list talks about, say if you're using my project, list your company as an adopter, right? So this really helps the enterprises backing it because you don't really have to buy the enterprise license. You don't have to buy the enterprise versions of these projects, but it really helps if you list yourself as an adopter. For example, like recently LinkedIn announced itself as an adopter of Kivarnu and it really helps us because we are okay if they don't buy a product. Just saying that LinkedIn is an adopter of Kivarnu, it helps us with several other say customer pitches wherein we can say, hey, as someone as big a giant as LinkedIn is using our project, it means they have tested for scalability, they've tested for performance. So that kind of gives us value. So it's very important. So today if you're using any open source project, make sure your company is listed in their adopters list because that really helps the companies. And don't open source for the sake of it. So by this, I mean that just because having an open source project or having the CNC of TAG is cool, just don't wait for the sake of it. Only after you have evaluated, if you really want to open source, decide on the license beforehand, what kind of license you want to maintain. So you don't really have to donate the CNC of to be open source, right? You can be open source under your own company's org. So that way you have a little bit more flexibility on what you can change and what you can not change. And also be transparent about the different prioritizations that you're making. Just because the code is open source, you don't, it doesn't mean you strategize everything within the enterprise and just, you know, just turn out features which nobody has clue on as to why you're doing certain things. So yeah, I think being transparent is the key. Oh, we have about five minutes left. So I'm going to power through. And then balancing OSS and enterprise. So this is about feature prioritization. So obviously your product prioritization is going to be different from the project prioritization because the users are different. So your product users are mostly say, some other enterprises wherein they're okay if they don't have the bleeding edge features. They're fine if they get some feature to releases down the line, but stability is more important. So maybe you'll have to prioritize differently for your customers, as opposed to an open source project where you want to try the next cool thing. Maybe you want to integrate AI in your projects. You're free to do that. So prioritizing is, you know, maintaining the distinction in the prioritization is very important. And then, I can't read this side. Yeah, again, having a clear roadmap. So your product roadmap is completely different from your project roadmap because your product roadmap is heavily influenced by your customers, what your company's vision is. But your project roadmap is mostly governed by your open source users. Of course, it can be influenced by your product because at the end of the day, the company needs to make money, but not completely influenced. Support users versus customers. So don't neglect your open source users. So if they ask you any questions on Slack, be sure to respond to them.  Okay, you may have SLAs, but if you just put in this effort to answer your or support your open source users, you never know, right? They can be a customer tomorrow. This is all form of, you know, building that trust with your OSS users that someday they might become an enterprise customer as well. And then I want to talk about, quickly about shifting focus. So again, coming back to project versus product, both of them can evolve differently. For example, Kivano is a Kubernetes native policy engine, but looking at the open source request, the constant ask was, how can we use it beyond Kubernetes? So that is where we prioritized making it as a general purpose policy engine, as opposed to a product wherein people were more interested in policy and governance part of it. That is where we evolved our product from a policy management to policy management and governance. So it is completely different how both Kivano and our enterprise solution has evolved and also expanding use cases versus pivoting, right? Expanding use cases in terms of, maybe you start with a small use case and I think it's really important to start with a small use case and not be all over the place, especially you have very few people working on it, that really gives you to focus on one thing alone and just be the best at that thing. And also pivoting strategies. So as a startup or as a new project, it is very common that everything is going to be chaotic. What you think is right today might prove to be false tomorrow. So you might have to pivot your product strategy or even your project strategy. But it is important to have everybody's buy-in, whether it is the community or even your internal alignment. Like Kiran was mentioning about having eight storage engines, right? But for open source project, maybe it's okay to quickly deprecate, but having eight support model for eight project engines in an enterprise solution is really hard because in a startup there are hardly 50 people and if you are supporting eight different things and eight different customer requests comes in, it becomes really hard to prioritize and even move along. And last thing is make your enterprise products enticing. So you clearly need to differentiate the product differences between your project and your product. And that does not mean you start building features now only in the product and don't contribute to upstream, right? What I've seen work at Nirmata is make all the major contributions upstream. The core features has to come from Kivarno and everything say enterprise does maybe provide good SLA support and even built abstractions on top of the open source project. And be comfortable that users are not your customers. The open source users, they're not going to pay you and it is open for a reason. You decided to make it open source. You decided on the license. So you really need to be comfortable with the fact that your open source users are not going to pay you and depending on the license, there might be some other company building on top of your project, right? And that is the key to, you know, you have to make peace with it. Yeah, do you want to? I think we'll just pause here to take any questions that are there. One thing, it's okay to not do a 24 bar seven support when you're like doing an open source project.  It's important to like set that expectation early on. The one of the mistakes that we do, we become very responsive in the initial stages. Community expects that kind of response throughout and it's not possible to do that. So just having a documentation saying like, this is when we support is good. Good. Thank you everyone. We can take questions at this point. So if you have any feedback, please drop in this one. I think I can take that. So the question was, you are building an enterprise product out of an open source project and you want a new feature and where do you decide what goes where, right? So I think most of the times the enterprise product, if the core offering is the project itself, it is going to follow the open source project in terms of the core capabilities itself. Now it depends on what kind of feature, right? If that feature makes a difference to the open source project, if that makes a difference to the open source users, then I would definitely recommend to, you know, make that decision in the, make that contribution to the open source project itself because again, you get the benefit of the community, right? But if it is like a very niche use case of a one high paying customer and you cannot let go of that customer, then just build it in your product. Yeah.


with most TV punditry and interviews now taking place on Skype by video call. Many people on Twitter are obsessing about the bookshelves that people have in their backgrounds. Now, often I don't think this is a particularly organic event. So I think people place the books behind them or beside them to display or present a particular image of themselves. But tweeting a picture of a bookshelf backfired for Sarah Vine yesterday. So Vine is a columnist at the Daily Mail and married to government minister Michael Gove. She tweeted this picture of Gove on a TV screen below a bookshelf. She says surreal. I mean, I thought it was quite strange that she thought it was surreal to see her husband on the telly because I mean, as a government minister, he's been on telly regularly for the last decade. But whatever, that's not the real story we're going to talk about. It was followed up by this other picture of her bookshelf. She says, as a very special treat for my trolls and Alastair Campbell, here is another bookshelf. There are about 20 more in joy. So here the controversy arose because amid the biographies of establishment politicians and iron rand tomes, there were two which in particular raised eyebrows. So one of them was by the notorious Holocaust denier, David Irving, the war path. We might be able to get a zoom in on that now. And also the bell curve by Charles Murray, sort of the modern day classic of pseudo scientific racism.  Obviously, completely scientifically discredited, but a bit of a Bible of the new, I mean, they call themselves race realist. And they obviously that's them being kind to themselves because this is nonsense. But the debate raging all day on Twitter has been whether or not it's a problem for politicians to have racist books. The debate hasn't so much been whether or not Charles Murray or David Irving are correct, even though probably some of the people participating might have controversial views about that. But more as to whether or not it is OK for a government minister to even have the books in response to this criticism. Sarah Vine said, to defeat prejudice, you have to understand it. I think some people were rightly incredulous with the idea that Sarah Vine and Michael Gove only have racist books to make them better at arguing against racism. Ash, what have you thought about this controversy today? Why do you think Michael Gove has these books? Should we be worried that a government minister has explicitly racist and Holocaust denying books on his bookshelf? Look, I think that the group of people on the left who are saying that having these books on your shelf. Immediately means that you subscribe to the views contained within. That's something that I disagree with in terms of my side hustle, which is I'm a lecturer, so I often have to teach materials which are awful. I've had to teach on fascism. I've had to teach on terrorism. And if you're going to do a good job at teaching those materials, you have to look at terrorist propaganda. You have to look at fascist texts and you have to teach them in a context. So I'm sure if you not here because I'm not at my house, I've maybe done my partner for lockdown. If you looked at my bookshelf from home, you'd see all sorts of things. You'd go, what the hell is that doing that? So that's an area where I disagree with many people on the left in terms of making this inference about a bookshelf and someone's political disposition. In fact, you can tell a lot about Michael Gove and his politics and his attitude to race and to nationalism by reading his book, Salsia 77, which was kind of a less exciting and a little bit more clunky version of Samuel Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations. So if you're going to go for the real civilizational clash, Islam is the enemy of Western liberalism. Go for the original. Go for Samuel Huntington. Don't go for this, you know, diet Pepsi version of it. Go for the real deal. So for me, it's clear enough to where you align Michael Gove's politics. What I cannot stand and I cannot stand this from Michael Gove and I cannot stand this from Sarah Vine is the intellectual freedom defence, which is, well, you cannot prescribe ideas. You cannot place the reading of books under suspicion.  You know who else burnt books, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Michael Gove has even within the Conservative Party been a hard liner when it comes to the Muslim diaspora in this country. You can see many of these ideas in the book, Salsia 77. Baroness Varsie talked about him in terms of being, you know, kind of an extremist zealot, someone who she would be very worried about becoming Prime Minister and, you know, in the heady days of the David Cameron administration, him and Theresa May were sometimes at loggerheads when she was Home Secretary about what to do in terms of counter extremism strategy. He wanted something which was much more aggressive, much more interventionist and which placed educational spaces under particular suspicion. Now, we know that prevent has overreached itself in many places, but one of the reasons why Muslim students in universities in particular feel so strongly about prevent is because they've come under suspicion because of the books that they have been reading. One example was a gentleman at, I think, Salford University. He was doing a master's in terrorism, crime and global security. So he was reading an academic textbook in the library on terrorism studies. He was then reported via prevent and questioned on his views about ISIS on homophobia and all sorts of things. You've had other occasions where school children have been reported to prevent. So I don't think that there is a direct correlation between someone's reading habits and their political ideology. The thing is, is that Michael Gove doesn't agree with me. He has been one of the chief proponents of a government policy, which has placed people under suspicion. So the crocodile tears of Sarah Vine, who is, of course, Michael Gove's wife. There are now people on Twitter saying it's sexist to refer to her as Michael Gove's wife because she is a times columnist. Yes, that's true. Her Twitter handle is also Westminster Wag, a wife and girlfriend. So, you know, you didn't want to be known as wife. You could have just been Ms. Vine. I don't know. It's galling to me. It's completely and utterly galling. It stinks of hypocrisy and exceptionalism. Why shouldn't you be treated the same way you treat others through government policy? Give me one good reason. Yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree with all of that. The one thing, yeah, sometimes when I see this outrage, the thing I worry about is because people think that this worked against the left, this sort of crying outrage just because someone has a book or likes a book that has a problematic section. Think about that Hobson, Hobson book about imperialism. They sort of say that that should tarnish your whole politics. We've seen that many of the people who were defending Michael Gove now were some of the most vociferous people who were, you know, I think it was quite McCarthy, I in a way, some of the opposition they were they were making to Jeremy Corbyn. People who only recently were saying that Bell, Bell, Roberto, Addy and Diane Abbott should be suspended from the Labour Party because they happened to be in a Zoom call with some people who have objectionable views now saying, oh, but, you know, we have we need to have freedom of speech and freedom of association. I think the hypocrisy on show here is phenomenal, but also at the same time, I'm not too keen to do the whole. I do think anyone should be able to have whatever book they want. Aaron, any thoughts on this story? The freedom of expression arguments are remarkable when you think about it. This is a government which has got Julian Assange locked up. Michael Gove has been one of the key architects of a of a general political environment, which does, I think, denigrate Muslims in the public sphere and to say that, oh, well, you know, he should be able to read whatever book he likes. I think he's it's a bit of a piss take. And then I think that the main thing for me, Michael, I think you're overcompensating a bit here. It's just hypocrisy. You know, it's just basic hypocrisy. It's a basic double standard. If this had been Jeremy Corbyn with a copy of David Irving, Holocaust and I, by the way, who was commissioned to translate Hitler's Diaries and The Sunday Times by Andrew Neil, and they turned out to be fake. That's right. Andrew Neil, who's been so keen to call Jeremy Corbyn anti-Semite, paid Holocaust and I to translate Hitler's Diaries, which weren't even real. But let's just park that for a moment. The BBC's big anchorman, big interviewer. You can see something very, very odd is happening. If that had been Jeremy Corbyn, we would have heard the story rumble on for weeks that would have been caused for him to resign. It was only six months ago, five months ago, that him pronouncing the name of a Hollywood pedophile incorrectly meant that he was a racist towards Jewish people. And yet Michael Gove, having a book by Holocaust and I is no biggie. It's absurd. And the Hobson book, which I think is an important analog, really, the Hobson book was a major work on imperialism. Hobson was a anti-Semite. Hobson was also, however, cited by politicians such as Nick Clegg and Tony Blair. Nobody ever mentioned Hobson's abject views on these things until Jeremy Corbyn wrote a forwarder and introduction to a book before he became leader of the Labour Party. So I think even the sort of the analog between Hobson, who's a century-old thinker and a living Holocaust and higher, wholly different. And I think it's just, it's very revealing. And I think I sort of disagree with you, Michael, on the hypocrisy front. I think it really reveals the kinds of people we were dealing with.  It really was about political point scoring, not for all of them, but for 90, 95% of them. And I think this episode has revealed that with greater clarity than anything we've seen up until now. So for that, I'm grateful for Sir Irvine's injudicious tweeting.


Visinova has been arrested. The star appeared at the Specialized Commercial Crimes Court on nine counts of fraud and money laundering totaling R1-million which he is alleged to have gotten from an elderly couple. He's been charged together with Jonathan Searle for swindling the widow of Leon Kruger. According to IOL, Visinova's involvement in this involved him signing an employment contract which was used in this. The same contract which was used as a means to get money from the late Mr Kruger and his wife. The singer is out on bail and doesn't seem too phased about it all as he took to social media to announce the release date of his new single and Dizakulindok.


Today we're opening the box that I should have never bought What's up guys we're back with another video in today's video We're opening up a box that I should have never bought you guys if you've watched the every pack opening Which is already out go check it out. If you have not seen it. It was insane. It's two and a half hours It's really long so go enjoy it if you haven't already But I talked about speed dual tournament pack to you like what is that what does that even mean? I needed to buy that for the every pack opening at least I thought I did so I bought an entire box and We don't actually need this pack because I already had one so I just have a hundred of these for no reason So you know what that means. We're gonna open these up. We're also doing a giveaway I'm gonna give away five of these sealed all you have to do is like the video be subscribed to our notifications And let me know your favorite card out of here There's actually a lot of valuable cards in here The most expensive card is over a hundred dollars and you might not care about speed dual But you can actually use these cards in a regular Yu-Gi-Oh as well So there's some really nice versions of cards like ultra rare king of the skull servants It's the most expensive card and some other really cool like rarity upgrades that you can use as well So let's go ahead and hop into it and start opening these things up because there's a ton of packs We're gonna pull out our five that's gonna be for the giveaway right off the top So that's six these five will be the giveaway. All right, let's get to opening There's only like two or three guys maybe three. I can't remember if they change it to yeah It's only supers and ultras. So yeah, it's supers or ultras. There's some big value in the ultras especially I don't remember how many you get per box. So we're just gonna have to find out We have enchanted fitting room and man-eater bug very nice It seems like a bunch of the cards are worth like over a dollar like the man-eater bug Let's think it's like over two dollars. They're pretty nice there The ultra rares are where the real money comes in the summoners are this is the best super rare Oh, and there's the king of the skull service. This is literally the best card in the set It's over $100 and you might be like why is this so expensive? You know like king of the skull servants and I even good in the meta Well in speed dual you're allowed to use speed dual cards in regular Yu-Gi-Oh, but you're not allowed to use Regular Yu-Gi-Oh cards from like the meta and like I don't say speed dual down here at the bottom You can't use those in speed dual So there's a much more limited meta and I guess skull servants are actually good in that meta So $100 for that ultra rare. That's pretty amazing a great start to this opening. We've already pulled up literally the best card What else are we looking for? Fortress Whales in here is like an $80 card So that's pretty nice perfectly ultimate great moth for those Picanha moths fans out there very nice We got a beach run. So we've already pulled the best cards. This is a great start I spent like $440 on this so that $100 is definitely helping in terms of our value Let's see if we can get our value back when opening this up. All right That is not bad not bad. We're gonna. We already good start to making our money back So that's like about a quarter of our dollars. We've got legendary fisherman nice adhesion trap hole another good card This is gonna be an interesting opening because like you don't really have to go through the packs You just kind of go like two cards two cards two cards He's kind of fly through him. Hey hyper hammerhead very nice the cabasol this used to be a good card I think it's speed dual. We're just hilarious. He's just a 1700 vanilla, but it was actually pretty good We have a legendary fisherman and enchanted fitting room. I think this is over a dollar as well I don't think I don't know if the fisherman is. Oh, yes dollar 30. It seems like so well at least I'm only looking at the front page. I haven't clicked in to see if it's actually worth a dollar 30 or less But oh another ultra the perfectly ultimate great moth Okay, so I think there is there appears to be six ultra rares and this is the third best one So we have now pulled the first and third best ultras out of the set already So this seems to be a really really good box. We are definitely taking this so far We're making a decent amount of our money back, which is nice I'll have justice court destroyer and the half shot that's a pretty decent card for glad beasts like in dual links and dual links and speedal Are pretty similar so I assume it's pretty good as well and also they reprinted it So it's probably pretty decent. We've got the manager bug and the slushie. I love the slushie. He's so funny All right, we got a slushie. We've got a lot of packs to go. We've already pulled two of the best cards I'm actually like surprised. I think when we open speedal tournament pack one We like didn't really pull much like we didn't pull we pull like dark magician only I think Ready for intercepting and a teaching trap hole another good card Yeah, we open speedal tournament pack one box at one point and didn't do that great legendary fisherman I'll have justice court sure and I thought it was only 50 packs when I open that one But this one seems more like a hundred. I didn't actually count them. It's either 50 or 100 Who knows I think it's a hundred though based on the box size chain of fitting room and be Tron Okay, be Tron. What's the worst card in here ready for intercepting is the cheapest card is surprisingly adhesion trap holes It's really cheap summoners are that's really good and may need her bug that yeah So it looks like those come together because I keep getting those very nice because like summoners are to almost five bucks So very solid super rare very solid value to bring back to our opening Ready for intercepting that is not solid value because it's the worst in the set. What else can we get? Let me know what you guys think about speedal. Do you play it? Do you like the cards? Do you collect any of it? Let me know he's in trap hole half shut as well So those are just really good battle traps slash quick play spells speedal is more of my my speed if you know And I'm saying yeah, this is kind of like the level that I like to play at like sort of a less complicated Yeah, I know it's like you might be like well, that's you know, that's boring You know, which you might if you play like current meta you probably do think like Dual links and stuff like that is boring But I just like the level that they play it because like eight still like a very complicated and fun game There's a lot of back and forth, which is what I like about it But you know, it's not that the level of like current meta you give summoners aren't very cool But I am a big fan of this like level play. I think it's really fun like the three zones I think it's also pretty cool man eater. We got legendary fishermen. Okay, so two ultra so far We're gonna see we did pull up five packs. We got to keep that in mind. Those could have ultras in them as well I don't know the exact ratios for these or if it's on the back 12 supers Okay, just tells you how many it has hybrid hammerhead and enchanted fitting room It doesn't actually tell you like the ratio per pack and just tells you like the set has 12 supers and six ultras half shut So we have pulled all the supers already obviously because there's only 12 of them and you get super packs We're getting a lot Cobuzoles and I'll have guests his quarter stroyer We're really just looking for those ultra rares to really like make this a nice opening. We have slushy. We have hyper hammerhead Let's see. We have a summoners art again So we're trying to pull as many of those as possible because those are really really adding to our value We have a beach Ron. Oh and a man eater. Very nice So speed do I'll say summoners art again. Okay, I don't know why man eater and summoners art Maybe that's why I sensed it the summoners art the man eater very nice a lot of packs We didn't even mean to like get these but we had to get them for every pack in terms of we didn't now We're opening them up and actually I'd say it's going pretty well if all that's you know king the skull servants That's pretty good unless that's all the ultras didn't like well I mean it's so good because like even if it is all the ultras we pulled one and three So if we pulled one and two is the only way it could be better or maybe like if we pull two king the skull servants I don't know if you could even do that But I assume at some point it could happen summoners art again very nice We pull like, you know 20 of those would be happy, you know, that'd be a lot of money and summoners art We'll take it. We have the ready for intercepting. I remember last time I actually sold when I did speed will turn impact one I sold a bunch of them on TCG player the cards that I didn't like use and somebody like Neg to me because they're like give me a negative feedback because that oh serpent night dragon. Let's go I don't think this one's that great. Let's see Fourth so one three and fourth. So we have now pulled serpent night dragon as well So all we need really we need the fortress whale and it'll be at the top So we got one three and four already these probably get back almost $200 for those out of our 440 This value isn't that bad actually like we're actually pulling pretty well As I was saying somebody like left me negative feedback because the cards were a little warped and I was just like well They I mean they just come like this like these are like notorious for being warped So unfortunately I had to like, you know refund them and everything which was not really that big of deal It's better than like a negative feedback. But yeah, that was a bummer. So yeah, I was like, okay Yeah, he didn't like it the worst part is when you get a negative feedback And they don't like send you a message like ahead of time You just get that email from TCG player that says you have received negative feedback and it's like oh From who like I didn't know about this. So yeah, that those are always the worst to see and then you got to like deal with them or Whatever, but usually if somebody sends me a message, they're upset with that. I'll just refund them in general It's like, okay. Yeah, you're that you're probably not lying to me And if you are like if it feels like they're lying to me I just block them and then they can't buy from me again You don't have to really worry about it But usually I think people are being legit like if they didn't get their package or whatever Usually doesn't happen too much which is really nice because I think for the most part people are scared to sell on TCG player and stuff and eBay But I think for the most part most buyers are like legit But there are a few bad apples that can really mess it up for everybody Unfortunately sometimes but I think for the most part we're pretty good on your TCG player Most of you guys that buy from me are especially you guys are watching like you guys are awesome because usually like oh Ruxen love to buy from him And then if you have a problem and you can just send me a message and then I will of course deal with it All right, we got oh the fortress whale. Let's go dude for Ultras are we gonna hit all of them? Right now we have the top four Ultras So we're at like a hundred and eighty two thirty something and then we're probably like around like two seventy five in terms of value from the Ultra so honestly good chance we get our money back out of our 440 if we can pull like another like two Ultras and they're both Good ready for intercepting. I think we'd be pretty close in terms of value. That's not bad We will take that all day slushy legendary fishermen not every day you open some Yu-Gi-Oh packs and get your money back It does not happen that often summoners are there's another one that is definitely gonna help toward that goal not every day And then of course you have to take into account like well I like to do like see if we get our money back But then if you actually sell them and you do it on TCG player you lose about 13 percent So that can really kill like trying to make your money back, but Unless you get two fortress whales, let's go second best ultra rare. We just got two of them We are insane right now. Oh my goodness. How many Ultras do you get per box in this? We are very close to our money back now. We're like 260 or like over three hundred dollars in ultra rare That is insane. Wow, let's go. Gabasol's we got hyper hammerhead.  There's definitely better options. I would assume that's for collectability summoners art again Very good. That's five ultras. This is crazy. And plus we have five other packs We did not open so who knows there could be more in there as well If you guys went in pull something make sure to let me know because I would want to know how many total Ultras were in this box. Oh my goodness.  Yeah, okay, hyper hammerhead cool. We've got ourselves a Gabasol's ready for intercepting cool. We have a man-eater bug and a slishy. Will we get another ultra? I'm liking I'm loving it. Let's see. We got the adhesion drop. Oh, that was not good Those are the worst two cards those two trap cards in terms of value even though they're both pretty decent cards Actually, I'll have justice court destroyer. We still have a lot of packs left like this. This was definitely a hundred packs This was not 50. This was definitely a hundred packs We got enchanted fitting room and cabasol's again. Okay. Where's our summoners arts at? What was the second best card again man-eater bug we pulled a bunch of those summoners aren't again Okay, we were getting a lot of those just very good Very very good. We will take that man-eater as well and then the hammerhead cool Come on. Ultras give us one more king of the skull servants. Let's do it. This would be insane We've got the half shut pretty decent as well. We got two packs there. That's not gonna work What will we pull we have the legendary fisherman? Okay, man two king of skull servants This is like the best box you could possibly get like it's insane. I'll have justice court destroyer I mean, we also got the perfectly ultimate great moth, which is you know the descendant or not the descent It's the opposite the ancestor of the pecanium off. I should say there's the legendary fisherman So I mean, how can you go wrong with the ancestor of pecanium off? I mean if you have pecanium off in your bloodline Very very powerful very very strong chanted fitting room. Okay, so did we pull all the ultras at the beginning? That's the question. I don't know. Maybe we did maybe we didn't I didn't really mix them up But also like they kind of fell into a different order if you know what I mean Like I pulled them out of the box and like they didn't go exactly in the same order But I didn't like bother shuffling them. So I don't know. Maybe they all are all at the beginning. Who knows I'm just maybe we get like six ultras or something like that because like well You get five ultimates in like a regular OTS box. So maybe you only get five ultras I don't know we're gonna have to find out at least 95 of the packs We won't know for those other five unless somebody tells me when they get them in the giveaway We have the oh Amazon is swordswoman, which is actually one of the cheaper ultras surprising. This is the fifth best the worst is barrel dragon I'm surprised. This is so back is this card was really like annoying and do links and actually pretty good We now have six ultra rears. This seems pretty strong the only one we have not pulled is barrel dragon, which is Okay, because that one is only worth $21 the Amazon is swordswoman is about $38, which is still pretty decent It's pretty close to the serpent night drag, which is 44 Which I don't know why the sermon night dragon is worth so much to be honest It's like why is serpent night dragon worth anything at all because like I don't know It's like there's already a secret rare in original print and then you're obviously not playing serpent night dragon Are you like how would you play a servant? Is there some sort of deck that like has cards specifically for serpent night dragon? I've never heard of those cards if there are I don't really understand that price point I don't know. I guess it's just cuz it's an ultra and like out of a like a tournament back kind of thing Maybe I really don't know it seems a little bit weird to me But I don't know let me know in the comments if you guys know about speed though You know why it's expensive. Is it just because of the collectability of like being a speed to ultra? That doesn't seem like enough though to me like some oldies from like OTS or less than $44 like yeah I don't know. I don't think that would purely be enough and like a serpent night dragon a popular enough car Like I'm a big fan of the serpent night from magic ruler. I don't know if I would necessarily want to pay $44 for Okay Man, I wasn't even like trashing and I was just wondering and then we pull another one So now we have a total of one two three four five six seven we we're like gonna make our money back This is insane a hundred and two sixty. We've got three ten. We've got those are ninety. That's four hundred. That's 438 I mean the ultras have almost made our money back. This is insane. We're actually gonna make money on a video This is awesome. I love it. I love it. Let's go and we didn't even open five of the packs Maybe buying this four hundred forty dollar box was actually a blessing in disguise like I was like oh, man I didn't need to buy that but I guess it was worth it. I don't know I guess it was worth it a man-eater bug cool because I think the guy had it listed at five hundred or something And I offered him four hundred and he just took it so maybe like I don't know five hundred We still would be doing pretty good. So pretty cool pretty cool.  I mean It's like a nice I don't know how in-demand speed dual cards that are though Well, maybe we'll put them up and nobody buys them That's that might be a problem, too And also I'm using like the outside like TCG player price guy without clicking in because usually want to click on the name and like See the lowest listing and everything to see the actual value So maybe some of these values are off and like the estimates are not good enough summoners aren't and man-eater very good We're down to like the last 10 I would say Been a pretty great opening though pretty great. I would say legendary fisherman half shut Wow What a opening man what an opening I should say cabasol So how many ultra seven or something we're gonna get another one I'm down for it Maybe if it was like one and 12 I mean that seems like we would get eight then if it was one and 12 That would actually make sense. I don't know. Maybe it is maybe it is I don't room But I don't remember speed dual tournament pack one We definitely didn't pull as many ultras you guys remember they would pull like three total It was like three out of 50 packs or something. I think it was 50 Yeah, that would still be under ratio because that would be like six total we pulled seven already We got and we haven't even opened, you know, 10 packs. We got seven or six here and then five more that we're not opening So interesting. I don't really know what to think about this opening. I mean, I'm happy about it But I don't know like about the ratios. I'm still more confused than ever about what the ratios are I was expecting like three ultras in this whole opening and we got seven so I guess that's good. I Guess that's good. We will take it. We've got ready for intercepting half shut Can we get one more in the last four? That would be insane. Let's get a king of the skill servants I like how we started off with that like the very best one and then pulled six more other ones that were not it So it was like, oh, well, this isn't that hard and then it actually was Chanted fitting room three packs to go. These are also really annoying to open like they just rip really weird Cabezol school two packs to go. Can we pull something nice? Can we pull something epic? We got hyper hammerhead and enchanted fitting room and the final chance for another ultra rare Well final chance for us at least except if you're the giveaway winner Then you have five more chances to pull something big you get the eighth ultra We have man-eater bug and half shut. Okay. Wow. That was a pretty sick opening I think we made our money back, which is awesome Let me know what you thought about the opening Do you like opening speed duel tournament pack speed duel in general or do you play speed duel at your locals? And if you enjoyed the video, make sure to subscribe to channel for more epic content And don't forget to go check out the every pack opening last week. It's pretty amazing Shout out to choice three three three nightshade gaming YT Hayden Jameson Squirtle Hoppus flexi boy dizzy Ernesto DeAnda puffins of doom TCG trusted cards JT cho tomato juice daxer tome foe show and none as high show Christopher Ward Ian Musa John Nolan junior barting Mike Nance mimic echo Seth Fisher Stanley Thomas McLean and Tony Z Thank you guys for supporting the channel, and I'll see you guys next time peace


Okay, here we are Wednesday in Aloha and welcome to Hawaii, the state of clean energy. I'm your host, Mitchell and our underwriter is the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. And this is a program of the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. So I'm really pleased to have two of my friends as I guess. Here's Sternlich again, and Noel Marin from Sustainable Energy Hawaii. And we're going to be talking story today about spaceship Earth. And last week we talked about problems and today we're going to be talking about solutions. So to kick it off. I'd like Noel to tell us a little bit about sustainable energy Hawaii. Thank you. Thank you, Mitch. By the way, it's Marin. Thank you very much for having us again here. It's been a pleasure to to be part of your, your, your program in the past and glad we're here again. I just wanted to share a little bit about sustainable energy Hawaii where a local organization that is advocating for affordable clean renewable energy for Hawaii Island. And I'm also happy that fellow board member Peter is is with us today. If we get if we can go to slide one, I can quickly socialize our, our mission. And essentially, our end in mind is sustainably produced energy, utilizing our abundant renewable resources here on the island. We're striving to utilize this to improve the quality of life for our people for residents here and not just in the in the in the current, but also in for future generations. And we believe that the benefit will come in the form of affordable energy that as you know will affect almost every facet of life here. This will also enable the creation of a green hydrogen economy and all the downstream products. You know, we talk about ammonia will hydrogen ammonia aviation fuels, etc. And these will play a critical role for difficult use cases that we have, you know, to deal with not just here but abroad. Examples are, you know, Trans Oceanic Marine and air transport and even grid storage. So, we're all about facilitating this change here on Hawaii Island, working of course with many, many different organizations and leaders to facilitate the change. Tell us a little bit about your membership, who are these, who are your members, what kind of cross section do we have there. Our leadership is comprised of a number of individuals and while I say leadership, but also the folks that we collaborate with are who we. So, we have folks from the university. Dr. Thomas, Dr. Lao see we have folks from the government. We frequently engage with the county county officials. On the board, we have people who are native Hawaiian leaders. We have the folks in the energy space, Stan Osterman. We have a number of individuals that represent many different facets of community, not just energy. And we recognize that this is a really important, important thing to have because as we go through this journey, it's going to be really important for us to do so in a way that's embraced by many different levels of different sectors of community. Peter, feel free to add. Yeah, Peter chime in. Yeah, I mean the collaboration in order to make a difference in order to be able to successfully develop this. The future of this hydrogen economy. It really does require working with the entire community. So it, it's government. It is industry. And it's also an especially the community.  Yeah, I've actually had the honor of the privilege of sitting in on some of your meetings and you have a really real wealth of talent on the in the organization with really good ideas and other thinkers. And we're working on solutions. So, talking about problems on spaceship Earth. We, on our last meeting, you let off Peter and talked about the challenges that we have on spaceship Earth, and we don't have a planet planet B. I want to just catch us up on that first episode when we talked about we, we define what the problem was. And now we're going to talk about solutions but tell us about the problem. Sure, so the cliff notes version of this is essentially that our species has entered into a space where we can, where we can say that we have, we're in a condition of overshoot. We're in a position where we're able for the amount of resources that we have here on this planet. We're consuming them at a massive rate. We, I mean, just in the last 100 years we've added 6 billion people to the planet, all of whom want to live really really nicely and well. We're really at a point where in I saw in a question that I think went out to the audience, where we need to be mindful of what we're consuming, because we live on a finite planet, and, and what we take for granted today is is finite it's not it's not necessarily going to be available at either the quantities or at the, at the prices that we've grown to be accustomed to. In the last show you talked about how we're an extractive economy rather than a sustainable economy. Give us a few your ideas on that. I think it's really important to, to define the concept of sustainability sustainability is being able to, to create systems whole systems that can, that can, that are efficient, that can work today, that can satisfy our needs today, but will also be used in the future. And that's a distinctly different thing than renewable energy because there you're just talking about the energy. So sustainability is a full system view of how we're going to utilize these renewable sources of energy. Yeah, we're kind of a throwaway economy I mean I get stuff all the time is single use and I should out. So we're basically using the earth as a garbage dump. Both our land their landfills and everything like that we don't recycle very much. And also our atmosphere is a dump for CO2 and all the harmful emissions we pump in. And, you know, basically can only take so much before it's overloaded so we've got to change the, change the paradigm here and have a paradigm shift and start thought with changing the culture. So, one of the solutions of course is enter is becoming more efficient on the energy side. And also, as you pointed out when we're planning for the show, hand in hand with efficiency is conservation. We have to be conservative and not, you know, store things for a rainy day so let's pull up the next slide and, and talk about efficiency and Noel how'd you, you please take a lead on defining efficiency and what it really means. Yeah, so. Well, the first things first it's actually the cheapest energy solution. Right. And it's not as sexy as things like clean fuels and renewable energy and geothermal and all these different things that are really, really important. And, but it's not as sexy. So it's often overlooked and underutilized underappreciated. And this is really important unfortunate actually because it represents a very important step in our journey to a clean clean energy future. And it's also a very easy first step. And, you know, when I guess importantly, if we don't first focus on efficiency and maximizing the, you know, the, the efficiency of a process, meaning find ways to maximize energy utilization, minimize waste, etc. We actually risk optimizing the wrong things. And that is going to result in unnecessary cost right and in consequences that we obviously want to avoid. There is this idiom waste not want not. And it's really powerful because it suggests that we have the opportunity to reduce the scope of our transition to a clean energy future by reducing the need for it energy to in the first place. Right. So, this means that it'll help us achieve our goals more aggressively, meaning we can compress the time frame and also deal with less resources. So, so that's the opportunity if we if we go to slide three. You know, we, I hope we can see that there. Yeah, so there are these interesting, you know, I guess the interesting thing about about efficiency is that it applies to most everything in our economy in our society. Anything that consumes energy. Anything that requires energy to produce or operate is a candidate for energy efficiency measures. We see that in our homes in our buildings and transportation in the stuff we consume we buy. And as we dive into each of the details and the details for this will start to see the opportunities that we have to optimize if we go to the next slide. There are a few things that I've jotted down here. I'm pretty sure I may have missed a few things, but I think these are worthy of conversation. I think the very first one is, is what Peter you had mentioned earlier or suggested earlier. So, the first one is behavior modification, and this is a really interesting one, but it's also because it's, it's very impactful, but it's also very difficult to change, right, or to effect because we're dealing with habits. We're dealing with people having done things, you know, a certain way for a long period of time. We have organizations that have operated a, you know, a certain way for a long period of time and changing the behaviors means changing the habits that have been formed.  You know, all these different things they're really small. And, but they're driven by habit. And if you change them. It can actually affect a lot of efficiency and savings. So that would be one area. The other one that we really talk about a lot is technology. And this is obviously a very important part. And we're seeing constant innovation in many different areas here. We're seeing this in household appliances in H facts and heating and vehicles and more. And the idea is that as technology evolves, you have devices that are becoming more and more frugal in terms of the energy. Inputs that are required for they, for them to operate and the, and the, the challenge is making sure that the consumers. Individuals and huge entities are aware of these. Unfortunately, we are aware because there's a lot of big focus on this, right? We have a lot of incentives, things like that. The other one is mode shifting. I call this, this is where we shift to a solution that may not be really apparent. You know, a good one is instead of just optimizing the vehicles. The personal vehicles, you know, making them more efficient. We may actually say, you know, maybe we can do without a personal car, right? We shift to, we shift to mass transit. We shift to multimodal transport. We shift to us, you know, micro mobility, right? Electric bicycles and so on and so forth. This mode shift is also represents a big opportunity for us because sometimes the solutions that we end up doing are going to be very efficient, more efficient than what we're currently using today. Even if that whatever that is, like a car is shipped, it's changed to an electric car, for example, it's still more efficient to move into the other modes of transport. And then, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I wanted to comment on mindfulness, because you have to actually think about what you're doing all the time. In fact, there was a previous show on think tech Hawaii, all about mindfulness.  And on the energy side, we should be thinking about what we're doing. It's like you say we're, we just do it because it's been habit for all these years. And like you say, should I use my car or can I take the bus? But in order to do that, apart from having personal mindfulness, we have to have like systemic mindfulness, including our infrastructure has to be mindfully created. So that your first choice is always going to be public transportation to use that as an example. And as long as the bus is easy, and I don't have to stand in the rain, and it shows up on time, and I can operate my cell phone on it and, you know, get on to the internet, yada, yada, yada, I'm going to use it. Now I lived in England for two years, well a year in London, right downtown. I went to a postgraduate school there. And I didn't have a car, but the, the transportation grid was so good there I could walk to a tube station was only like a 10 minute walk, and get on the tube and go somewhere else and go all over London without ever needing a car for a whole year. It was, it was kind of interesting. Going through that experience. So Peter, what are your thoughts on, we talked about both the personal mindfulness and systematic systemic mindfulness, like getting our political class mindful. Yeah, and just to kind of just kind of cap off the last topic that you were talking about in terms of mass mass transit. It's also a cultural thing it's it's it's a it's a mindset and a mindfulness that that an entire community has it's normal to do that in certain places so for us. We, I mean, it's going to it changes hard for people. So, we've got our work cut out for us. What was your question that you had just wanted to talk. I wanted to shift from just being personally mindful to being systemic. Oh, right. Mindful. Well, so that the people that build these systems are mindful about what we're trying to actually do. I mean, like we're doing now on the big island I got to say the mass transit agency and the county are really thinking this through about what, what do people want what do they need, as opposed to just assuming what they need, and not even talking to them about what they need and then you build a system that nobody uses. So, how, how inefficient is that if you have a bus that drives around with a driver and everything else like that it's maintained and nobody gets on it because it's either late, or, you know, it's, it's not on it doesn't have the amenities you want to be able to use. Or, or, or it's a, you know, it's we're trying to implement a change within a system, a community in this case, that is not optimized for it. Right. And that's one of one of the points that I have on the slide, which is a careful planning of communities. So in the situation that we talked about you just raised with the Hawaii Island. The mass transit folks are looking at things like first and last mile. Right. So how do people get to the bus stop. Now, if, if there isn't a solution for that, they may as well just get in a car and drive to where they need to go. Right. And when they reach a terminus of their, you know, of the mass trans, you know, the bus ride. They need to figure out how to get from that bus stop to where they need to go right so there's this first mile and last mile solution that needs to be part of it. But the more important thing, and I think it's part of it makes this challenge, especially an important one for the US in general is that we've built our society around the personal car. Right. You've got, you've got the job centers. You've got the burbs out here where people have to commute. You've got essentially a society that has been built around the personal car. And as we move forward, we can change that. So if new communities and cities and towns and, you know, even just a development is created. And the developers look into what will the community members there need to be able to maximize their, you know, reduce their need for transportation. Then they'll talk about, okay, we need shopping. You need, we need healthcare. You know, we need government services.  So there's this thing about developing with that end in mind and trying to change our systems without looking at the overall system and also affecting change in the overall system is going to make it really hard to move forward. So anyway, that was my thought about the system dimension to it. And there's, there's one, one of the things I want to raise and that is this area around waste.  We're in a society where there is where products are designed to fail. Right. There's like, there's planned obsolescence with a product, you buy it and it's expected to last only so long. And then it's going to be fail. It's going to fail. And then you're going to have to buy another one. So we've got to change that. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of how to make products last, how to make them repairable, how to ensure they're upcycling and recycling and reuse. And the same thing goes for food. There's a lot of food waste that occurs today. A lot of energy that goes into producing food. A lot of energy that goes into throwing away and disposing of food. We should be able to make, you know, minimize that as well. So it's everywhere. It's food. It's hard goods. It's soft goods. It's transportation. There's so much opportunity in this space of efficiency. Yeah, well, so looking at it in my own personal life is I was looking at my bottle of olive oil, and it was a massive glass bottle, and it was a beautiful bottle.  So I thought, well, how can I use this? And I thought, well, you know what, that would look like a nice wine bottle. And so I repurposed it and bought a box of wine instead of bottles of wine. So right away I'm saving on glass. And decanted like four of these bottles out of this one box to get from Costco, a box of wine. So like a box of wine, if you took it as a guest when it seemed really tacky, like, oh, gee, it's bringing me boxed wine and not a bottle.  Nothing but the best.  We have an economic system that incentivizes a, a throw away society because shareholders are constantly going more and more and more profit profit grow grow grow grow grow grow. And it, I mean, for instance, my, my wife's father, we finally got him to get a new refrigerator after the one he had had for 50 years. Wow. Yeah. You know, was it still worked, but it was consuming so much electricity and the efficiencies, but he had a refrigerator for 50 years and he, he just, I don't need to do I've got one that works. He still was using the same, you know, appliances that belong to his mother. And this was when he was in his 70s. So they used to make things that way and quality was an issue. Now price has become the over money has become the idea. I can do five shows on this, but there's, there is a cultural thing that needs to change so that these things that you're talking about know well can be easier to do it became become socially more acceptable. So, yeah, that's my two sets. Look at the way, look at the way we work. Okay. Now this coven thing was awful. No question about it. But it's changed our whole way we do work. Yes. So instead of having to commute to the office, you have to have the car, and you got to fill it up with gas and you got to drive and take an hour one way or depending on how far away you are and then park it and all that kind of stuff. Heck, you can get up, have a cup of coffee and you can be on task, assuming you have the right kind of a job. You know, right. And you're far more efficient. I mean, I've only been in the office like three or four days in the last few years and I'm getting a heck of a lot more work done. Working from home because I have exactly the same setup in my office at work, except they don't have windows and I don't have a refrigerator. It was not a good thing because it was too easy to go and have, you know, snacks all the time. So I put on the COVID-19, which now I'm trying desperately to lose, but look how it's changed the whole way we operate. So like some organizations said, oh, you got all the comeback and people were revolting against it. You know, what's the point. And I even heard that some companies were docking people pay, because they said well now that you're not coming into the office we don't have to pay you as much because we don't have to cover your community expenses and all this kind of stuff. It really changed everything. And okay, so how do we support that? I mean, maybe that's a good thing for people in the knowledge industry, you know, not necessarily like in the university environment.  They can't do that from home. So they have to go in. But other people don't have to do that. And, you know, they're using their computers and all this kind of stuff. So what we have to have to help that out on the systemic approach, systemic mindfulness, is we have to put in a awesome communication system. So like if you're living out in some of the the burbs on the big island, you know, in the outlying subdivisions, you have like wonderful internet access like during COVID the kids had allows, maybe I'm overstating it but in some of the areas they have terrible internet connections. In fact, they didn't have them. And I know sustainable energy Hawaii took the lead on trying to build little satellite Wi-Fi spots or hotspots in these local communities. Okay, so we learn from that, I hope. So let's get in there and build a Rolls Royce communication system so that maybe our kids don't have to go to school every day. You know, they can do their homework online or whatever or their, or their parents don't have to go, you know, drive 50 miles and to get to work and back because they can do the job. It's not about where you are. Yeah. What's the job I have to do. What do I have to accomplish. And what's the most efficient way I can do that. What do you guys have to say about that. I guess I got a prompt that we have three minutes left so I just want to say just to tag on to that because what you just described is so critical and the last slide I had was just talking about two general areas and a big area is education. Right. Especially the things that are behavioral in nature if people know that if they do x, they're going to save why it's going to be a motivation, especially this in this time, right, where, you know, economics are really critical. So, there's a lot of education that we need to do, and that's a big part of it. And then the other area, I know we're out of time here, the other areas policy, there are certain things that we can do to effect. You know, the changes that need to happen in the form of incentives in the form of requirements that force, you know, buildings to be more efficient, that sort of thing. So those are, you know, I'm sure there are other other things out there we need to talk through, but I want to emphasize the importance of awareness and education, you know, so that we can have my own mindfulness. There you go. Well, that's exactly what the follow on episodes of this series of shows going to be, you know, Planet Earth here, Spaceship Earth, and we're going to be talking at all the various different areas we can be more energy efficient. And, and what we can actually do as an individual and systemic what we want our politicals to do. So actually we have two slides left to go I'm going to give my little pitch I like to give all the time, which is our world is fragile, our future energy needs are great. And it's time for those of political power and financial strength we've got a lot of billionaires on the big island that make a difference. So all you guys who might dial in maybe a billionaire is not going to dial into our little show.  So we'll come up to the next slide is how we can talk to sustainable energy Hawaii and there's their website or your connection to their link to their website and also of course, our host today. The Hawaii energy policy form, because we're going to be out there looking at what kind of policies can we put in place to make ourselves more efficient and more energy efficient going forward. So last words to, I'll give something to well. You have anything you'd like to close up with. Yeah, I just again ways not one not this is the cheapest form of energy solution we have out there and it's something that we definitely must invest in. Yeah, be aware of the fact that we're that that that are our supplies are limited treat them with care and and realize that they're not going to necessarily be here forever at this price. So be mindful. Right, be mindful. Yeah, be mindful of our time. We're going to leave it there you've been watching Hawaii the state of clean energy on think tech Hawaii and we've been talking story about spaceship Earth and our broken sustainability system with Peter Sternlich and Noel Moran, Marin, Marin. I got it right. I'm sure I just know you as Noel. I'm sure there are insights on solutions and our follow on shows will be discussing other solutions so thank you. Peter and Noel for joining us and helping us out with this and I know you worked to the midnight hour last night to helping put these slides together know well so thank you so much I want to acknowledge that I also want to acknowledge Haley and the think tech team who are actually up at midnight last night when I sent them the slides and they were right on it which is really unbelievable. So thank you very much to I think tech staff and most of all thanks to our viewers for tuning in and I met you and we'll be back in two weeks with another edition of Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on video. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechHawaii.com. Mahalo.