Hey everybody David Chang here with the art of taking smart where we learn to live and make smarter decisions now today's guest I'm very excited is Roger Epstein He's the international business consultant and he's been an attorney for 30 years that I know what you may be thinking All right, so what does an attorney have to do with thinking smart, right? I'm sure there's a lot of those attorney jokes out there But I've been very blessed to get to know Roger and as I have progressed through my career Learn the importance of having Honestly, the best attorneys by your side because they definitely help you make decisions and I wish I had some good ones like Roger Before some of the decisions I had to make early on my business career and now that he's retired after about 30 years He's now doing his second job actually his true love which is international business consulting Roger Thank you for coming on the show Pleasure David nice to be here. So let me tell me a little bit about it You know your law profession. What made you get into law and you did international tax law. That was your primary right, right? Well, actually my mother wanted me to be a lawyer. Okay. Okay, she worked for the Justice Department I grew up in Washington, DC. Oh and She worked for very high-level lawyers in the in the US government got it She actually ended up with the number one lawyer the solicitor general She was his assistant by the time she retired. Wow. And so then when I was in college I took a class in business law and I thought oh, I like this. Okay, and so that's what I ended up doing I I Like most people in college didn't know what I was doing and I fumbled around ended up with a degree in accounting Okay, I went to work for the Internal Revenue Service in 1967 Well the IRS Okay, and after I worked there a year I realized I don't want to do this for the rest of my life Okay, so I applied for law school and I got into law school at Georgetown Law School I was very happy and what I did was I went to I stayed I continued to work for the IRS Okay, and then I went to law school at night So I started at eight in the morning got off at five went to school for two or three hours and studied for two or three Wow, I did that for four years. Okay, and after my first year or so I had good grades. So I was on the law review, which was another 20 hours a week. Wow, okay But I had totally fooled around in college So this was a chance to learn about discipline. Okay, that's good And then after I while I was I started out as a revenue agent With the IRS and I met a guy who was a senior partner in a very large law firm in DC I worked with him and a couple of years later His his office came around to interview and he said we're not looking for tax lures But we're affiliated with a firm in Honolulu amongst others and he said would you be interested if I Send him your resume and give you a recommendation. Oh, there's 1971. Okay. I said, I said where is Honolulu? Anyway, I decided to come out for a couple of years and See how it went and be here ever since and I've been here since 1972 awesome, and then you were with Kate's you recently retired from Kate's I recently retired I came out and joined Cades in 72. So I was actually there 44 years Wow Wow and Cades is one of the largest law firm in the in the in the state and We had very large clients in those days local clients, but we also had a number of very large Clients from Hong Kong to actually Jardine Matheson acquired the old Theo Davies company the Theo Davies building still here now Yeah, right and that was in 1973. Okay, and then run run Shaw who created the kung fu movies the Shaw brothers Okay. All right. They started buying real estate in Hawaii and we began to represent them And then I had a small client that was sending charters to Hong Kong Okay, and they wanted me to set up a company there so they wouldn't have to pay any tax on the money They made when the tourists got to Hong Kong. Okay smart. Okay, so that's where the international tax attorney stuff That's where it started. I came in 72 really started in 73 I did a lot of planning for Jardines on how to make huge investments into the United States Sure, and the Shaw family was buying a lot of real estate here. Okay, and we planned all that out, too And then I had a couple of other clients in Hong Kong, but one good story I was some 28 28 years old. I go to Hong Kong for I grew up in a little Jewish neighborhood in Washington, DC Right now. I'm going to Hong Kong so that the tourist guys had a had a suite a two-bedroom suite in the penthouse of the Hyatt Hotel Wow, so I went there. I told the Shaw people I was going to be there So run run Shaw was 70 then okay a night of the British order And they said where are you going to meet him? I said, I don't know they said well, why don't you meet him here? So here they're 28 year old US tax lawyer Yeah, entertains them in his two-bedroom suite in the penthouse of the Hyatt Hotel run run Shaw his CEO and CFO So that's the kind of how it's been. Okay, guys I met with all the senior people in Jardines, which at that time what were the largest employers in the world? They had 250,000 employees really what was there in what industry were they well? They were in many industries the hotel business the land business They were in charge of the waterfront in Hong Kong. They ran the waterfront. They owned the Mandarin hotel chain They got in the food business Davies got the Pizza Hut and Taco Bell franchises later on and so they they had That business they were in the insurance brokerage But it was a big conglomerate if you ever saw the movie the if you ever read the books type pan or noble house No, I've heard of a James Clavel. Okay, that's the company. I see. Okay. Got it So you've started off, you know working in the IRS and then you have all this experience of the law firm and International not just in the local area and so we're talking about How to make better decisions in life and how your experiences relate and how our audience can use that for you know When they're you know moving forward, so you have five points that you want to talk about So let's start with the first one. Okay, what is the first thing that you've learned through your years of? Experience and I'm sure you've had so many clients that you've had to protect or had to you know People like me who made mistakes that you got to get us out of jams So what is the first thing that we can do to make better decisions in life? Well, let me let me put it to you this way David and This has come to me over the 50 years I've been in business But I've been able to Articulate a little better and and and get my arms around a little better from things. I've learned later on in life So the first principle is is attitude. Okay? Your attitude is everything Okay, we all have good and bad that happens in our life But your attitude is what's really important how you deal with it now? I learned this from a wonderful mentor of mine about 20 years ago named men named Jerry Jim Palski Okay, he has a whole program called Attitudinal healing okay, and in fact Jerry was named by Oprah Winfrey as the most important person she ever interviewed really about two years Okay, Jerry Jim Palski so and so That's the basic concept that that your attitude is is what matters doesn't matter what happens to you It's your attitude and that you can control your attitude So it's like that saying that you can't control what happens to you, but you can control your response to exactly exactly So that's the first principle now the second principle is consistent with not only Jan Palski, but kind of Every other tradition that that Is in life the way he frames it is the essence of our being is love okay, but many people would say We're all connected to some universal energy. Okay, so that's what the religions say I've done a lot of work for the Joseph Campbell Foundation in fact I'm a director that I don't know if you know Joseph Campbell is where he got very famous in the in the book in a Interview with Bill Moyers just like we're at okay guy all the power of myth okay, and and he talks about every tradition and every Religion every culture Having similarities and he looked at thousands of them during his career. He was a professor at Sarah Lawrence College anyway The idea that we're all connected to some universal energy. Okay, so this is a principle that that now We know from nuke from physics Quantum physics tells us we're all just energy sure right right right okay So it's that energy that the mystics the ancients have been talking about for years We're all so I believe that's real I believe it from quantum physics I believe it from studying many many religions and practicing many religions Okay, and and from the work that Campbell did and many other and my own intuition tells me that our energy is going back And forth we're connected to each other guys, so we so going back to the first point about attitude is that okay? I make smart decisions We don't get wrapped up in what happens around us. Don't let the tune at the short-term noise just be Able to control how we respond to things so that's one of the the first point of making smart decisions the second one So I'm trying to understand it is yes That's you believe we have all we're all connected through this universal energy And how does that help us make smart decisions because the energy comes to you? It's just something you've attracted it to you okay or something you need in your life, and so Everything is kind of working in order. Okay, so you can accept the fact that whatever happened to you came for a reason Okay, okay got it and so instead of like you said being thrown off You just accept this is in my life. This is what's happening right now. Got it. How do I deal with it? Got it? So like in in Christianity Yeah, so that's my faith. It's it's that fate that God's in control that he We believe that What happens to us we accept that we just continue to move forward, you know the Buddhism Hinduism is love so you're saying all of that. That's exactly what I'm saying You see every one of those traditions is saying and don't get attached to it. Mm-hmm. Just be present with it Interesting when a when a client comes into my office. I'm not thinking about oh, I hope he thinks I'm a good lawyer I'm not thinking about how much money I'm gonna make right. I am present with whatever he tells me Okay, so when it comes to problems that we deal with or situations Don't worry about the future or what happened the past be in the present to with that right attitude When you're dealing with that problem exactly and how you get into the attitudes and other points into but sure but that's the idea Okay, now there's a book by Eckhart Tolle called the power of now Okay, and what that says is about that. You've never done anything that wasn't right now. I see and so why aren't you in the present? That's the place. That's the action point Interesting right now is the only time we can do anything. Okay, the rest is the past in the future So if you can get yourself out of the past and in out of the future and just be present now you can deal with it properly Wow, and this is gonna be great. We're gonna have to take a short break here But I'm excited to hear your other three points. We'll be right back and thanks so much for joining us of the art of thinking smart Hi, I'm Chris Ethan with think tech Hawaii and I'd like to ask you to come watch my show the economy in you Each Wednesday at 3 p.m. Aloha. This is Reg Baker with business in Hawaii We're a show that broadcasts every Thursday at 2 o'clock We would love to hear from you and you can reach us in several different ways We have a hotline that you can call in at<PHONE_NUMBER> or you can email us at think tech Hawaii comm or you can tweet us at think tech Hi Looking forward to hearing from you and seeing you on our next show Aloha Aloha, my name is Danelia And I'm the other half of the duo John Newman welcome we are co-hosts of a Show called keys to success which is live on the think tech live network series Weekly on Thursdays at 11 a.m. We're looking forward to seeing you then Aloha Hey, welcome back, and we're here with Roger Epstein. He's a well-known attorney 50 years International law now business consultant. We're talking about through his experiences the five Top things that you need to do to make smarter decisions and we first talked about the attitude the second one The energy that he talks about that were all related and how being in the present And so now let's go to the third point. So what's a third? Okay? the third point is to understand and the way Jan Palski frames this is If people aren't acting out of love they're acting out of fear His first book was called love is letting go of fear Okay, so I see that in this in this context if you think about we're sitting here acting like we know what the hell But the truth is neither one of us have any idea where we came from What we're doing here and where we're going That is a setup for Neurosis a setup for anxiety in fact that Tibetan Buddhists believe that the purpose of your life is to master neuroses Oh interesting. Okay, so so what I what I take as a third principle is to understand That you're gonna be coming from fear all the time. Oh, okay that this is taking you out of the love That's really your connective energy the love that brought you into the world The love that has us always want to be in my fourth principle is being of service to other people Okay, this is how this is what the connective energy is all about got it So the third one is love right is that the third one is is that the the opposite of love is fear is fear Okay, and the fear is what you need to deal with oh, I see so you could have the fear of the future Okay, what's gonna happen if this thing screws up right now? So the person comes into my office, and I'm looking at him what happens if I don't know the answer I look bad. What happens if I malpractice, okay? What happens if all these kind of what what it's so it's not to make decisions out of fear But to make the decisions out of love exactly very well said that's a third point That's the third point and and and to be in the present now To be in the present requires two things, okay? forgiveness and gratitude Forgiveness in the sense of letting go of the resentments you have in the past So if I'm still angry at you about something that happened five years ago Then I'm holding on to all that anger. You may not even know what's going on I may have forgotten about it. This is this is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die That's a very interesting point. I don't like and you know, there's a lot of people have This anger towards others and I see how it impacts their future life When the other person didn't even know it happened, right? And I see a lot of marriages sometimes end up oh sure Yeah, oh sure you collect all these grievances right and you don't let them go, right? So it's like it's almost like you're saying not to keep score and just just if there's anything that's happened Just have to let it go and move on let it go now. You don't have to not get Reconcilia reconciliation you don't have to get restored right right right restorative justice You can here's a quick story sure this boy has his bicycle stolen right and the next day another boy comes He says hey, I stole your bicycle. Can you forgive me the kid says okay? I forgive you and the thief starts walking away and the boy says hey, where's my bicycle? You got to get your bicycle back Got it okay, but on the other hand you don't have to do it with this Attitude that takes you out of your love takes you out of your presence so even practicing law And this is very difficult for lawyers right you've got to get your ego out of it You got to get all that and that's why it's good to have a lawyer The person who's been harmed they have trouble getting their emotions out of it and I you know Work with your firm and and I totally understand where I'm so close to the situation I have so much emotions into it I want to do this this and that to this person, but you know my good attorneys from your firm are saying calm down other things at a logical perspective and What and it's making those decisions out of fear I you know, it's all coming together that I want to make this decision because I'm angry I'm fearful of what's going to happen or not happen not out of love and and this is where even though some Attorney's always get a bad rap. This is where you at least what I've learned is I'm able to always as a specialist entrepreneur I always look for the optimistic the best case scenario But the attorneys have done a good job to say well, let's look at you know, if things don't go the way they are We have to set yourself up for success regardless and I see that but I want to go back on your bike story I like this example because Cassius clay, you know him as Muhammad Ali I do and the way he got started boxing and I don't know you knew about this, but he had his bike stolen I didn't know yeah He had his bike stolen and he said he was gonna beat up the guy who stole his bike And he said this to a police officer and the police officer just happened to be a boxing coach And he saw this guy was out of energy. He really was gonna pound on me He said you know what take out your energy in the boxing gym I'll I'll just train you a little bit and he didn't know that that was a start of his career Instead of beating up on that boy. Maybe going to jail He was able to channel that and I think that's what you're talking about is channeling Yes, our energy that connection the attitude into love not to fear that there's something constructive So my career has not been much. I've done a lot of litigation, but it's mostly been negotiations rather than in court But I but a in transactional work. I take the approach of how do we make this work? Hmm, I don't care what the other guy did he did this, you know people get thrown off on these tangents all the time Keep your focus on the result got it and and and and just be with it and be present and let those emotions go through you Okay, emotions come up. Just let them go out right they're gonna go out eventually anyway No, let's talk about I especially since you know, I deal with investments and people are very emotional the stock market goes up and down I'm on the phone a lot. Yeah, and I'm trying to tell them. Hey, you know what? We're looking long term be disciplined don't let your emotions get in the way because Emotions are what drive low returns How do you when you see a client? That's so emotional How do you try to steer them or how do you try to help them get that out of their system? Well a couple of ways first of all, I try to mirror it Okay, the calmness the comfort and not in a not in a Unconnected way in a connected way, right? I understand what you're saying. I hear what you're saying and What are the options? What can we do now? So I kind of go through the alternatives? I'll give you an example if a guy came into my office and when I first started practicing law and he said Here's my facts and I said, okay, you should have come in six months ago. We could have done this He said why don't we back date everything? Mm-hmm? Okay, okay? So I said well, that's not such a good idea because if you could cut you're going to jail and I am too Yeah, yeah, here's some other alternatives. Okay. I see here's some other alternatives that are almost as good And you don't want to go in this direction I see I see so I have the opportunity now you have to read the future that makes it a little harder But you can say look here's what we can sell now, right? We can get into something else right or we can hold on here's the pattern of this And here's what I think in the long run, but it's your decision got it as a lawyer It's always the client's decision that gets me to the fourth point. Okay, the fourth point is to be of service Okay, be of service now As a lawyer, I always tell the clients there's young lawyers. There are four constituents There's the client. There's you. There's your law firm. There's the community Mm-hmm. If the client isn't first if you're not being of service, then you're not doing your job You can't think how much money am I going to make you've got to be of service first this is so critical and this gets into the second part of Joseph Campbell's work, okay What he's found in all these traditions is the two principles are you're connected We're all connected and the way to have a good life is to be in service with other There's nothing more satisfying than being helpful to other people. That's what everybody wants to do Of course nice to make some money to sure part of it, right? But really the satisfaction in the in the higher sense comes from being of service and being helpful guys So in the decision-making process, you're saying make the decisions out of love to not what can I get from this person? But what can I help and add value to this right and isn't that what Jesus said right giving and receiving or the same sure But it's better to give than to receive the golden rule too. Yeah, and and and it's a physical principle That's what I'm saying this plateau that we're set up for where it's all anxiety, right when you help other people You it takes you out of your own anxiety God because your focus is not on yourself. It's your focus is on helping out exactly interesting And this allows you to get rid of the stress too. It stresses such a difficult thing for us We talk about it all the time right? Well, that's the way that's one of the key principles to be of service It's very counterintuitive, isn't it to think because most people think that okay I got to fix myself or I got to do this right, but you're saying you know what? By helping others you will fix yourself exactly and this is what all the great masters have taught right? So why aren't we listening? Because the material world is so powerful it is and your emotions are so strong, right? You do what's count you shoot yourself in the foot all the time, right? No absolutely. I've been there before of course We've all been there. That's why we're here. All right, right, right, but at 71 years of age I figured out some ways right that that helped have helped me in the past so Recapping before you to the fifth point we have attitude And and and how you respond to things the second one is that universal energy being the president now The third one is coming from a place of love not fear. The fourth principle is Being of service in a value to others. So now what is the last a fifth point last principle is to enjoy yourself, okay? Now Joseph Campbell had a nice saying that's become very popular follow your bliss, okay? Follow your bliss means when you don't know which way to go when you don't know what to do You sit down calmly, okay, and you get in your heart, okay, and you see what comes up You can really sit there like this meditation get yourself rested and then Ask yourself a question What do I want to do and the answer comes up interesting it comes up all the time And it comes up for what your heart wants to do and when you go in that direction should I take this job or that job? Should I should I cheat over here? Ethics is a huge part of this. It's hard, you know forgiveness the hardest person for all of us to forgive is ourselves Interesting, I've been the host of something called the Hawaii forgiveness project for my 14 years Michael and I are Exactly and so so that's one of the things we've learned at looking at all these traditions is Forgiving yourself is the hardest. Andrew. Why do you think that? Because we're in our heads all the time and we're constantly judging our head is about judging and making decisions that discriminating but our heart is where our real love is God and then you make your decision This is the Hawaiian tradition, right? You think with your manao, right? You feel with your pulhuvae and then you make a decision in your gut That's when that word comes up and when the word comes up you think oh this feels right Now you're following your bliss that sent that saying actually has a much deeper meaning in the Hindu tradition Okay, it's one of the three ways to enlightenment, okay But it's become more of a pop culture kind of thing to just say Follow what really feels like where you are heart that follow your heart follow your bliss interesting and that way you have less recrimination and nobody knows what the future is about that's part of the anxiety right and And there's many techniques for all these we're just scratching the surface with these five principles I have you on the show game. This is great. You go into these in each. There's many techniques for forgiveness There's a Stanford research forgiveness project for 25 years a guy's got a PhD in Forgiveness and he's got a whole book on how to do that Every tradition this happens to be the Jewish high holidays The tradition there is on the first day of the new year, which was Tuesday Right you begin to look back on the last year to see what you did right and what you did wrong, right?  I'm gonna really fast to the material world. I'm not gonna eat. I'm not gonna drink I'm just gonna sit down and think about the higher the energy Right and try to be connected to that and let go of what happened and then start over again. That's great That's a lot of traditions. This is so great. Thank you so much for coming on the show and you can go to the art of thinking smart calm and I'll have more stuff posted about Roger some of the folks that he's mentioned the teachings They has and I think we're gonna have to have you on the show again Just because of all that knowledge that I need to learn as well and also gets a free legal advice, right? Thank you Roger really appreciate my great pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us And I look forward to seeing you on our next show. So until then make sure you think and live smarter