Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you everybody. It's um, welcome. It's Friday, May 8th Welcome to the noon time meeting of general housing and military affairs. We're continuing our conversation on housing today and Specifically to discuss a little bit from what's happening in other parts of the state we have heard from central vermont and we have heard from In county and today we have two witnesses here right now Josh Davis from Brattleboro and Liz Reedy from Liz Reedy from Addison County. Are you in Middlebury now? Are you where are you Liz? John Graham is mostly in virgins, but we do have one property in Middlebury, right? Okay, so we will hear from Josh first and then Liz and then we're going to be joined by Josh Hanford from the department of housing and community development and we want to follow up on the conversations that we had last last week with DCF and AHS and Get an idea of what the housing folks are talking about because we had talked about We've we've been talking about rental assistance and we've also been talking about the the concepts in h739 the rental registry and Rental safety have popped up In different conversations over the last couple of weeks and so I want to get to that as well Earlier this week we talked about the possibility of dealing with the craft beer folks on tuesday of next week and I think we're going to postpone that and the reason for that I was asked to postpone that because the letter that was sent out was actually sent to the administration and So it's being dealt with at least on the first level with With the administration and we were just asked to hold off on on hearing testimony about it right now just so that the Administration can process some of the requests that were put in there there while there was a fiscal request There was also a handful of other requests that It would be dealt with either through continuation of what's already been put out in the addendums things like the liquor sale being restaurants being able to do takeout liquor drinks or beers But there were other things that we can handle as well, but I think we're going to keep focusing on housing for the time being and really try to put together as as the Appropriations committee is starting to talk about what's going to be In the budget adjustment. We don't have much to do with the budget adjustment But when we start dealing with what they're calling the skinny bill I think this is the first we need to start thinking about again the short medium and long term Issues and also getting an understanding of how this cares money can be spent and this is something that's come up again and again I mean I mean if you had to ask me today can Care's money be spent for the things that we've been talking about with respect to getting Homeless people out of the shelters and and into someplace more secure Uh, the answer would be yes, maybe Uh, a lot of the guidance that happens that's been happening that we've heard about through Uh, I've asked leadership I haven't been able to talk to jfo though There is it the senate did talk to steve Klein a little bit yesterday And there's a lot of caution going on with how this money can be Allocated and so we're still trying to figure that out and basically one of the major reasons is that every time we think that We have an interpretation of the law um For instance, there is a use on capital expenditures. They can be done while you're thinking well in the sense of broadband Using some of the care's money to extend broadband into some of the some of the dead zones in the state Well, that's a capital project. You have to build and uh in order to get homeless folks out of The hotels and not put them back into the shelters. We have to buy and or build we have to have a capital project but right now the interpretation is that Yeah, that may not work and so there's a lot of caution. There's a lot of guidance that's changing every other day So um as we begin to develop the framework that we want to see happen Along with the advocates along with the senate. Um, we just have to take that as a cautionary tale that We're still learning What is available at the end with the care's money? Um, and and on top of it there's a huge amount of competition obviously for the care's money, so So we're going to continue the conversation on housing and try to build a good a good structure And really listen to the folks we're going to listen to today and get an idea of of um What's in front of us and so i'll start with josh josh you um We're invited last week, but or two weeks ago and couldn't quite make it but there were folks who shared your your um op-ed that we've just now shared on our on our website And I just wanted to get a feeling from you With the word if you could explain to us the work that you do do Down in brattle bro, and then just give us a sense of what you see, you know Go beyond a little bit of what you wrote about but just you know we We did something here. That's extraordinary after you know, how many years of talking about it We got every homeless person who we could get off the streets and into You know four rooms four walls And and it took a pandemic to do it. It took a situation where there are no tourists. So these hotels were available um, but you have You just share with your experiences what you see and what you want to see happen and what you think can happen I mean, I have a hard time thinking that once we've housed people because if it's an emergency It's going to be really difficult to say now that the emergency when the emergency is over You're on your own again. So that's where I'm coming from a little bit and um microphones yours. Welcome Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here this morning And I really appreciate the kind opening I do think we need to celebrate what we've done and to acknowledge what's happened in such a short amount of time It's really unprecedented And so again, I'm josh davis. I'm the executive director of groundwork's collaborative We're in brattle borough Our services include a 30 bed year round shelter and a 33 bed seasonal overflow shelter A day shelter a food shelf Case management services and representative payee services So in essence, we think about ourselves as food shelter and supportive services for our neighbors in need And thinking about, you know, just a little bit of context on what we've seen Over the last couple months as coven was descending upon vermont We completely changed our service model Uh, we were fortunate to be able to work with the stellar folks Uh at the state in particular, uh, I have to put in a plug for sarah phillips at oeo Her leadership in those early days was fantastic and huge kudos to the work that her that she and her team did And so in that process we closed the seasonal overflow shelter and moved people into motels We closed the day shelter and we reduced the number of people in our year-round shelter So that it was just one household per room We also closed our food shelf to walk in visitors and started making emergency food deliveries all over windom county so presently and Uh representative stevens, you were just talking about data that you're getting Data was updated today for us and we're still getting more information as we go but presently we are supporting 135 adults and 16 children in four different motels in brattle borough And just for some context that's about four times the number of people that we typically support in our seasonal overflow shelter And at the same time our emergency food services, we are supporting 1,300 people in 965 households And again for context that's about twice the number that we typically Support in an ongoing way So I think also giving kudos to the groundwork staff The response has been nothing short of extraordinary and they continue to show up each and every day throughout this crisis Assuming risk to themselves and their families to ensure We can continue to meet the basic needs of the people that we serve And so I just want to underscore the excellent work of our staff But also staff across the state that continue to show up and make sure that everybody has the shelter and support they need Often when we're talking about essential workers, it's grocery store employees. It is nurses and health care providers and I'm not advocating that we be included in the messaging But I just want to underscore the fact that there is a whole host of people throughout the state Who are supporting a number of our most vulnerable So again, you've already acknowledged that You know, in essence, we have stopped we've interrupted homelessness throughout the state. And so what do we do? How do we Maintain this in the face of everything that's going on as conversations are starting to shift from surge and isolation to plateau and reopening And so when we're having these conversations locally, I think we started with the assumption Uh You know, what if everybody who's in the motel suddenly had access to housing subsidy? We looked at that and quite frankly, we don't have the housing stock to meet that demand At last check windham and Windsor housing trust had only five vacancies in brattleboro Which is an indicator of the extremely low vacancy rate So then the question evolves to how do we bring 50 to 70 units of housing online? in a short amount of time the next few months Elizabeth bridgewater who I believe you heard from last week the executive director at windham and windsor housing trust And I have been exploring this question And very quickly our conversation turned to what existing properties already exist that have the number of units that are needed And this has ultimately led us to the question of pondering purchasing a motel And continuing with the model that we've been successfully operating throughout this coveted response As I've learned because we're developing a project here for groundworks We're developing a seasonal overflow shelter a day shelter space It's a roughly three million dollar project that the organization has been working on for three years And we just broke ground on monday. And so that is in process, but I can't tell you the crisis of confidence that we had two weeks ago about building a shelter in the face of really solving homelessness and We almost just took our three million dollars of resources and bought one of the motels Unfortunately, I have a good counsel that said, uh, whoa, whoa, you know, this is a coveted response and a short-term response Let's think big picture about systems here And the building that we're building will still provide a use moving forward and hopefully it's serving less people We're building this overflow shelter with 34 beds and hopefully there's not a need for that number of beds but they're still going to be Functional homelessness or hopefully we end Functionally in homelessness. So there's still going to be some movement through the system And so then we started working with windem and windsor and turn to them and say, you know, what would that look like? So we identified some potential motel sites And are doing some kind of back of the envelope cost to try and get a better understanding of what this idea would entail As we're thinking about capital investment I would also note that a key to this model is the supportive services that couple the housing And of course groundworks and windem windsor have experience Through this we forged a strong partnership and gained invaluable knowledge through our work together on Great River Terrace Which I believe Elizabeth spoke about the 22 permanent supportive housing unit Developments that we've done together that serves folks have Previously experienced chronic homelessness And without a doubt the key to the success of that project is the supportive services So as we're building potential ways of moving forward, I just want to underscore As much as we can to include services right off the bat As opposed to what we had experience with on Great River Terrace Was we have one bucket or one group of folks that are working on the capital investment And then the services happens elsewhere But really fusing those two together. I think is important going forward And quickly just on services Have you estimated like what the percentage of any particular project is that would require those services? or what the numbers are for the And we we don't hear as much about services as we do about as we do about housing units But if you could share with us just what your estimates are that would be great So right now at we we're providing services our base of operations at one primary Motel in Brattleboro And that staff there is also supporting folks that are in other motels But if we look at that staffing model where we have roughly 60 people In the motel we're running Three shifts. So we're running Two shifts basically 24 hours And then we have one eight hour shift that floats And if you project that out over the course of a year, it's about $325,000 And so just to give a ballpark And of course that's adjusted based on what the model we would use moving forward The number of staff that we need versus the number of units that are on site And that is not and I would underscore this it's not Intensive case management services that this staff is providing there This is just helping to operate within the day to day And I I do think that that would shift is this would become a longer term model as opposed to a crisis response The staffing would probably reduce a little bit in terms of the day to day But then it would increase in terms of intensive case management services That wouldn't fall necessarily to one organization We could definitely leverage community partnerships and other agencies that provide supportive services in the community Does that help and so I think where we are in this conversation is that the concept of purchasing a motel raises a number of questions Not limited to these that I'm about to list out, but how do we sustain such a model? You know, we're talking about the infrastructure to get it going But then what does this look like in the coming years to sustain? Would this operate more like emergency housing or would it be more permanent supportive housing? We would advocate for the latter But what does that look like? What are the housing needs of people in the motels right now? I hope you've heard about coordinated entry and how that system is rolled out And one of the elements of coordinated entry is establishing housing need So can we take that information that we're learning through the coordinated entry assessments and tailor the housing implements that we're talking about to Meet those What are the number of units that we ultimately need? You know, I gave you an indicator from windham and Windsor housing trust We know that we have a really low vacancy rate, but what are some potential opportunities within the community for Extracting all the housing we can and really taking advantage of all the available units that are in the community And what will housing needs look like in the next month two months six months As the impacts of covid continue to be realized moratorium on eviction will be expiring soon we have continued Bleak economic picture and so folks who have not typically entered the social service Programs very well may be calling on us and need intensive supports as well at least in the short term And so I think what I'm here to advocate for is time We need more time to dig into these questions And Also at the same time I would like to advocate for let's lead with the goal of not releasing people into our community without housing and Supports while we're taking the time to figure out what's next And at this point we don't have a clear understanding of when the emergency motels will begin to unwind But I would advocate that we do everything in our power to make sure that we are not releasing people back into homelessness or on the streets To unsafe and unsustainable situations Declaring a timeline would be extremely helpful Both for planning purposes for us in the community that are looking at it, but also thinking about clients Clients are incredibly anxious about the uncertainty Of how long they will have housing and what next steps look like I think uncertainty is a common theme right now and we're getting A lesson in that in all new ways with covid-19, but anything that we can do to message the folks that we serve about Uh expectations and housing would be much appreciated And so again just to underscore We don't merely have to survive this. We're given a great opportunity to recreate and reimagine our our communities and What once was thought Really impossible is we're actually doing it And so i'm really excited about the potential of what can come from what we've learned in such a short time I believe you're muted. I am. Thank you. Um representative triano Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Chair and thank you for coming in today and um, I guess my question is um, I've Seen I spent four years on human services committee and we've seen these motel Projects work fairly well up in shaman county services are easier a little bit easier to provide that the duration of of the housing is is a lot longer It often transitions into Better housing With the support services. So I guess my question is we talk about these motels. I you know from staying in quite a few Some of them have kitchenettes. I mean what work Is needed for each unit to make it actually a livable unit to for someone And and what kind of cost do we talk it out for that? kind of a project That's a that's a great question. Yeah, we have a you know a little bit. I reference them back of the napkin Figuring that we're doing I think what we've been talking about is putting in some sort of Kitchenette so that there is a sink a microwave Something and then making sure that we're connecting to emergency food In the long term so that folks are still able to access food I think it's cost prohibitive to put in Full kitchens at this point. I think it's something that we can look at And in terms of looking at some of the units, you know, it's One of the spaces that we're looking at is a roughly 50 unit Motel And we're going by by tax assessed value and then doing a back of the napkin Maybe $10,000 per unit to get new Carpets in there a refresh and then these kitchenettes installed with some plumbing and so You know Anywhere from about two million dollars to purchase the property and then another Million million and a half for development costs to get it outfitted and so You're looking at close to four million dollars of capital investment just to to get it In ownership and then up to speed So I can raise you Would you see some Savings if there were provisions for individuals to be able to prepare food In their unit as opposed to the three miles a day that are being delivered right now Would you see the savings there you think? Yeah, and I think that we could tailor how we're providing some of those food options to folks knowing that they would have some capacity for reheating or putting food together with the The kitchen units kitchenettes that could be in the units And I think you know, we're really we're really asking questions of what is housing You know, I I hesitate to say that we've housed everybody because people are in motel rooms. And so we have sheltered It's we've done a little bit more than shelter but a little less than housing And so what is the model as we're looking to outfit these units that meets a baseline that is Acceptable for folks to be able to meet their needs, but also makes sense in terms of You know, you're talking about short term medium term long term Is the motel option something that we want to keep in the long term? Is this a Permanent supported housing project that's going to sustain in the community Or is this something that's going to be short and medium term while we figure out some other housing options? I think that's a question that we need to wrestle with and it would also Influence how much capital investment we put in at the entry I think certainly the vocation of a hotel in the proximity to your Downtown services is something that we had a conversation about last week as far as some of the the former low-middle income housing units that were built so far out of town that People couldn't walk into town to buy their groceries So I guess that location issue it would be an issue as well. I suppose Yeah, and it's something with Great River Terrace in Brattleboro It's exit one two and three and we're located right in town not off an exit off the interstate And then, you know, Great River Terrace is out on exit three out Putney Road and there's concerns about that isolation and the Motel that we're operating our primary base of services out of is out on exit three as well And we really do want to avoid a congregate site that's on the outskirts of town That we're isolating folks and removing them from community. And so location is key Yeah, certainly a consideration or it should be That's just one of the one other question is We have a bill that's kind of a lame fellow right now about rental registries We've heard last week. We heard a fair number a number of people mentioned that that could be a tool or an instrument that Would benefit you folks in the attempt that you say five units available In the Brattleboro area. I so it's suspected it's more available And maybe that a rental registry would go Further for your assistance as far as finding other places to live. Is that would that be accurate? I would agree with that and I've been in touch with our town planner Sufilian to get the information that she does have about rentals and try and pull some of that together So that we can see what available units are. We're also thinking, you know, are there units that are Just barely offline. Not that we need to develop new rental units But something that might need a modest capital investment that could come up to speed It's really hard to capture that data. It's because it's not there. It's non-existent But it's it's something else that we've talked about as a community of trying to wrap our heads around Great. Thank you very much. Thank you I wonder if using the motels As the short term a short as a short as your present and short term solution I wonder if they turn into the shelters of the future where you know, as long as you own them You know, rather than the congregate setting Of a conventional shelter, I wonder if that's the you know down the line. That's the fate of of these if if it's a purchased situation And if I could add to that We've seen and I don't know folks who have testified before you have spoken to this But the ability for somebody to close a door and have their own room and bathroom Has been profound for so many of the people that we work with Yes, you know, we're building a congregate shelter right now because that's what resources allow When we were planning this but if we had the option the ability to close the door is huge and the ability to cook Rather than have to go to a cafeteria or a congregate setting In a cafeteria, clearly we've seen in chitin county where the nursing homes some of the nursing homes there have had some distinct issues That kind of the same issues that we felt might happen with with homeless shelters, which was just being the vector Representative triano are you Your hand is back up You're good all right Any further questions for josh right now? I mean, this is um You know, there's so much to this about what What the use the you know recreate and reimagine And I you know, that is something that I always enjoy doing I call it imagining But it is um beyond that it's really trying to figure out what are solid steps in the future um, I'd like to josh if you could stick around for a while um the uh I'd like to pass the microphone over to to liz reedy who Has been involved In state government on many many different levels over the years, but has really um since since I believe since you you left State government liz you've been with a john graham facility and so if you can Give us a you know, give us a history of what the john graham does. I mean with the way that representative by wrong Described it in our last meeting. It's far beyond what we would consider a conventional shelter system and um Which reminds me josh i'm going to come back to you later because you mentioned that you also provided representative payee services to And I'd like to hear more about that after when when we come back to a larger conversation So liz the microphone is yours. Welcome to welcome to house general. Thank you so much um, I'm really Delighted to hear everything that josh is doing and what a wonderful job he's done down there I've always admired his work and I want to uh, I want to see your op-ed piece I can't figure out how to do it online, but maybe ron will tell me afterwards but I'm really Kind of proud to see what's happening down there. So um, so john graham uh It's one of the oldest So-called shelters in the state. We we have 40 years of service to Vermonters homeless families and individuals this year started in 1980 and um, we now have five buildings and uh, the main our anchor is the shelter as everybody calls it on in Downtown for gents. We also have two other buildings for gents Bristol and a building in Middlebury, so we have over the past 15 years. I would say we've really kind of Our shelters are not like big barracks style housing Almost everybody has a room. Uh, they may have a roommate. There may be two women in a room There may be a family in a room which can be tough if you've got a large family but we've really moved away from having bunk rooms and To really trying to Have a sense of home and a sense a home within the building where the person is and then a sense of community Within the larger community which includes making connections for people jobs and housing and and care quite frankly, so Some of our so so basically we have three congregate spaces We have some ga units where people that otherwise would be in motels have gone can go right into the unit and then we have Housing where people can kind of graduate to having their own apartment and then move on with a voucher so um Like uh, josh, I really do want to really stress the importance of the services so but Maybe i'll get into that. So that's an overall of john graham Since the crisis has been upon us. We basically have a four pronged approach First we are operating all five of our buildings With reduced census Especially in the congregate sites. We have very few people there right now. I also want to second what josh said about The office of economic opportunity Sarah has really been a true leader. I hope and you know, I I don't know if people realize both she and the commissioner I see as as real leaders They really know what's going on on the ground They're not afraid to give guidance And they really You know, you always feel That you are Working as a team and that has been so important to us They've really they've really stepped up in an amazing way so Right off when the crisis hit around the middle of march They were there and they gave Pretty much the guidance that people that had Underline conditions would have the option to go into the motels So some people from john graham immediately went into the motels Others didn't want to leave the congregate setting right off Many eventually went into the hotels not all but many and And we began With our community partners. That's another great thing about this has been How the the county has come together and how the community partners have come together Both with the statewide partners, but also on the local level We have the charter house. We have the parent child center. We have women's safe I mean people have really come together as a team. So when I say this is what we're doing I don't mean just john graham. I mean the whole continuum of care has really stepped up So we john graham are running our five buildings We are working as a team With our coalition members to serve about 73 people in motels And that's with three meals a day much like what josh described I can get into that a little bit more detail if you're interested in it We have a covet 19 coordinator Who makes sure that all the team that person is at john graham make sure all the team members have information Um Works with people on the statewide level. We have a website Where people can volunteer over 200 people have volunteered And also Clients or people who are homeless or people who are in need can say hey, I need diapers. I love a crossword puzzle book I need a buddy Whatever I need milk I need shampoo and and we try to deliver Those items with the food when the deliveries go out. So the three meals a day are going into the motels and uh, we are really I don't know if you've got the little flyer that I gave ron but um We have been so fortunate with this uh collaboration with middlebury college. I can't say enough about it uh, they've been cooking three meals a day for people and um our staff at john graham picks the meals up And we deliver them and it's just been amazing The food has been great The collaboration has been great and it's just we we're just very very fortunate The quality of the food has been really good And so then the fourth leg on this stool is that uh, we have kind of pivoted to well We have always been working in getting people housed So we have continued to house people in permanent housing during the crisis We had a family of four that just went into A three bedroom unit last week and that was with uh, another amazing partner Which is the addison county community trust um analogous to uh the folks that josh was talking about down in his area And they have been fantastic partners I would second what josh said is that they don't have the inventory So if we have the people in the shelter the people in the motels At any given point I would say there's probably between 75 to 100 people in addison county Maybe a little more who are precariously housed that any given on any given night We um work with most of those people in one way or another and with our partners. So um for example They could be in one of our five buildings. They could be in a motel They could be have moved on with a voucher and we're providing aftercare in support we do have master's level clinician that can provide some prevention and intervention services and help people with treatment and with uh, we really We really emphasize a trauma informed approach to Getting people served not just with housing and with food but to really Looking at the person and I think maybe that's what um, matt was talking about You know, we really are working with employment. We're working oftentimes as medical case management and we've been working Frankly, I don't know if you guys know this but matt has been an amazing partner in um employing people So many many people have gone from shelter. They've gone down and they've gotten a job at three squares They've moved up the ladder Maybe from dishwashing to cooking to helping and so we really see Our work is as a home in a community So those that's basically what we've been doing and now we need to pivot a little harder to getting people placed into permanent housing as everybody's mentioned The units just aren't fully there. So if I could I just run down a few little recommendations or ideas That will kind of play off what josh has said and also what some of your other witnesses have said What's needed for the future? Um, I think the proposal that was put forth by gust ceiling has a lot of merit the idea of Either building units or acquiring units and rehabbing them and making them available And and coupling that the new Units with rental assistance, but also the services are a really really really key point If we're going to do that, I hope that those units will be targeted to the homeless Um The bottom line is that there is a housing crisis in vermont pretty much at all income levels Uh, and it's real and a lot of people don't have high income So if we bring it in a lot of units, there's a plenty of people that will be eligible for those units And they'll fill up quick But I hope that uh, whatever is brought online will be targeted to people who are homeless And maybe even to people who have higher risks For example, either the medical conditions or the mental health conditions That that caused them to be really at risk for safety and And for morbidity and mortality So yes to housing housing targeted to the homeless The service component I think can't and we can't really say enough about it And I thought that uh representative Stevens was Was right on when he said, you know, we hear a lot about building housing But we don't really hear a lot about the service component And that's mainly why I wanted to come on today Because we really do appreciate all the work of the statewide nonprofits Housing Vermont and the housing authority and I mean we couldn't We couldn't be doing what we're doing without them And we wouldn't be in the position that we're in With our buildings or the buildings that josh is bringing online They're just really key partners But on the other hand the services are really key Like josh's organization, you know, we're delivering food to people who are precariously housed or recently housed A lot of people with shelter plus care vouchers. We have a lot of people who have gone on that have mental health issues or addiction issues or they're just vulnerable people And they need care In many ways and it's a lot easier to stop by With a basket of food or to pick up the phone and just chat for an hour or to have a clinician just check in and See if we can just Do some breathing exercises over the phone. I mean we're not providing the full case management to everyone that we wish we were right now But the services are really key to keeping people in the houses Keeping people housed Another thing I wanted to talk about was the task force that Gus mentioned and It's prop. I think it was representative Stevens who said Does it need to be a new task force or I guess I would just really advocate for including The homeless service providers prominently in that So that it's not just about capital needs So that it is about services. It is about people It is about building Helping people get into housing but also helping people within the community to stabilize and to become successful and I think that for example, if you're going to use some of the 1.5 billion for services My own recommendation would be that that would go through the office of economic opportunity through The agency of human services I think that they really have the expertise and they really have The care and they have the connections With people in the community now this wouldn't prevent them from issuing an rfp that was broad which they often do and There's some great partners like pathways or maybe some of the housing organizations that could certainly Be participants in that but I think that that they really, you know, they For our grants with them. They really couple the funding sources to kind of meet the needs of the community and I just think they do a great job so The only other thing I would add is There have been some challenges with some of the residents I mean, I listened in on your committee hearing when they were talking about what was going on in berry You know, I I would just Ask people to think, you know, I mean, I know the general assembly pretty well and I can imagine If we put everybody up at the hilltop and served them three meals a day and You know any group of human beings are going to struggle in that setting, you know and served them three meals a day In styrofoam containers and told them they couldn't go anywhere. It's going to be tough, you know any any Anybody is going to struggle when it goes on for month after month and you don't know when you're going to get out of there So I just I just kind of think I hope that those stories don't get I'm sure that there are some issues We have had a few issues People sometimes smoking is an issue Sometimes one thing that has been difficult is sometimes people's mental health is such that Their trauma Doesn't they don't have a lot of comfort with being alone or isolated And we've had some people that have had a hard time with that And I think that that will continue I think that if we put people into rooms When maybe they really flourish in more of a family setting There's going to be some issues there, you know when we tried to keep people going in In our congregate sites what we found is, you know, people wanted to go out and Go fishing or go riding around on a spring day And and it was sometimes tough to get people to understand you can't come back to the congregate site Where there's seniors and people with underlying conditions And one of our service coordinators said something that really resonated with me He said, you know people are always In a traumatic situation And this is a danger that they can't see but so many people have had so many dangers in their lives This is just one more and so that was really helpful for me to understand that And I think we've probably seen that with our own friends That some people have really really struggled and that's how it is for the people that we're serving That are housing insecure So I think that's about it And if you have any comments or questions, I try to We will. Just knowing that you're in Addison County and that you know Addison County so well What I didn't hear about and what I don't usually hear about is How how are you finding any potential Growth in the homelessness issues or housing you use the phrase precariously has for agricultural workers In your in your community When we do hear about this we hear mostly about the northwest corner Of the state a little bit more than we do in Addison County. What's the situation down there? Well, people are housed on The farms where they Work We don't see a lot of people coming into The shelter occasionally We might see somebody seeking some kinds of services The open door clinic has been amazing And they provide health care and translators We Work with people who you know, we have our organization has done a lot of work with Asylees and refugees just because Um I think that our board and our staff just feel a heart connection with people and so we've taken people from That have come in maybe through chitin and county, but we don't get a lot of people coming from the farms And I think that a lot of the services that they're getting are going through the open door clinic I don't know if you know them, but um, it's quite a great Great organization in Addison County So no, thank you for that representative. Triana Thank you. Um, so, um, I think you and I knew each other a long time ago. Liz You look different then Yeah, you and I both But um, you know just a few things, um, you know, the committee has been I guess almost shocked as would be the word to see that at this point in time Compared to when we first went into session that the number of homeless people in vermont is almost doubled We were it was reported about a thousand Homeless vermonters early in the session and we're looking at almost 2000 now so that you know that Changes the picture some as far as finances go But i'm encouraged by what um, you and josh have both brought to us today as far as What's being done and um, what's in the planning works? for the future so You know the amount of money that it might take to get through this is staggering But it's something that no one in the committee is ready to turn their back on because What we've been through for the entire session and what we're going through from this pandemic So, you know, I wanted to thank both of you for coming. Um, I just wanted to comment one thing about isolation The converse is also true. I think what I envision oftentimes and have had some experience with when you bring folks in from encampments, uh, let's say, um, who are Be classified as chronically homeless that The converse is true. Uh, those folks don't integrate well with other people So I think I think we're talking about both Yeah populations When we look at the overall picture And I just wanted to bring that up because You know, there are folks that go out into these encampments to try to bring people in and and they don't have a lot of lock oftentimes So, uh, you know, it's just another consideration Well, you know, I'm not really surprised by the numbers. I think that um We know that there were many more people and as the commissioner said the other day to the committee We always knew that the way that the point in time count was conducted was A flawed methodology in the sense of getting the full picture of people that are precariously housed So for example, you know, I go I have a little place I go down and sit by the river um, sometimes around sunset and just read a book and Somebody came down there the other day a woman that I recognized and uh You know live in their car And uh, you know, there's a lot of that that goes on um in vermont and um, I think that there are very few people whether they are people who depend on living with people or if they're people that are Chronically homeless and have been in encampments. There are very very few people who would not choose to be inside Oh, yeah, I agree. And as josh said, you know, the whole idea of just being able to close the door um To lock the door to have a little bit of privacy To have a little bit of safety and and comfort, you know I mean, it could be something simple like a chair or you know being able to have a cup of tea or whatever it is, you know Um, there I know and I've done this work for many many years I know of no one really that wouldn't take that if they could And so we do try to do the house the housing first model as much as we possibly can And uh, you know, we've gone out to people in encampments and we've said We want you to come in, you know, we we don't want to see you out here at 20 below and um And it's not an easy thing.  You've got to be there You can't just put somebody into a unit and walk away But if you do it Then the whole person changes you don't even recognize them You know pretty soon they look pretty good, you know, I mean you see that they're they're talented person and they're you know They're handsome or beautiful or you know, and they have all these A lot to offer to the community and very soon People can really Have a very different experience in their life Well, well, there's no doubt in my mind that that is I mean that's what I'm talking about. I mean it's You bring someone in from an encampment the amount of services that are initially Needed and afforded to a person can make all the difference in the world as to whether they can sustain you know Living pattern that is not an attempt and wearing every piece of clothing that you have and a sleeping bag to try and stay one at night And also the health, you know people's health they need to People might might have diseases or conditions and if they don't You know, they're really at high risk if if they're just out there and and not paying attention to them Josh Yeah, if I could I'd love to add to this and I think right on with what Liz is saying um One of the things to also keep in mind is that when we're offering people housing thinking about the amount of red tape regulations rules Things that people have to do to get into that housing And we've really tried to be cognizant of making that as streamlined as possible because some people I I agree our experience is that people by and large will want to come in especially if What is being asked of them is a relatively low bar and not a really high bar Where they really have to sacrifice their sense of self to come in inside I would also we're talking about services and naming services and I thought it it might be interesting to read this quickly um, I asked Ryan McKendrick a director of operations why things were going so smoothly at the motels Um, and she sent me the best reply in the early stages of this Very succinctly describes our approach to services, which is support folks Care about them Tolerate challenges have direct conversations Meet needs buy tobacco Don't call the police for social work issues Work with all the hotel owners Answer when they call at 7 p.m at night Get clinical staff on site Never give up on folks avoid punitive measures restorative practices harm reduction person-centered And that's where we stop. Oh, that's great. Can can we you're gonna send that to us right because I stopped it by tobacco. I got I got caught up at buy tobacco Yeah, I'd love to have that trash. That's I'll I'll send that. I'll definitely send that to ron And that's and that's and I still say is that all You know, I mean, it's right. So, um representative Gonzalez Uh, Liz, I wanted to follow up with representative Tom um, Tom Stevens question about agricultural workers and one of the things that I am concerned about as COVID will continue to spread um, and that it will will still be here and it will And for a while and you're just we're at the point where We will most likely not overrun our medical system, but we will still be spreading COVID for for quite a long time And so the folks that that you serve will continue to be the most vulnerable and folks who are in agricultural settings in congregate housing on farms Who will not have who have not had and and will not have the opportunity to self-isolate if someone that they're sharing living space with um test positive and so Just um as we continue to move forward and you continue to provide services. I'm I'm wondering um, if off the top of your head, it could sound like you haven't already thought about it, but thinking about how to increase outreach to folks who are marginally housed on and cultural lands That are fine ish now, but if someone in their in their housing does test positive or comes down with COVID that they would they would need you um, and so needing to to have language services and outreach services and and Really thinking about that as your approach as we move forward into to this plateau that we're moving into Well, we do have um We have worked with a lot of People with different languages. So we have that all set up and um, we had family Spanish speaking totally Spanish speaking family in the shelter For most of the year and you know, we had the services and we were able to set them up for them and you know, we're kind of lucky because we have Middlebury College and We also try to have when we can Some diversity amongst the staff and we love to have staff members that can speak Other languages so we're really conscious of that. We don't always have it because we're little but Um, and but you know, the college has been fantastic for us, you know We we had a family when they came to us. They only spoke portuguese and you know, they were from angola But little by little they've you know learned and they they could I can speak french So I could speak with them. But uh, yeah, I think that's a really important point And if somebody we did um set aside a unit In case people did get sick So that we could put have people go there and I think also That it's possible for people who um do get sick to go to harbor place Up in burlington, of course people may not want to and and I'm sure it's scary if you can't speak english to go up there But but we do have those resources and the open door clinic I think one of the reasons you don't hear a lot about. Um, I really are you familiar with them? representative gunsel um, I uh Yes, I have not visited but I do know their work. Yeah, they they are I think one of the reasons we don't Get a lot of uh or hear a lot about people in our area um is because they do such a great job and they really uh, they have a lot of um I think almost everybody on the staff is a spanish speaker and you know, the the referrals they take care of not just help there, you know Heidi is the director. She's just fantastic and they're a very close partner of ours. So Yeah, but that's that's a really excellent reminder and I'm really glad you're on this committee to be um thinking about it because It's it's really important I wanted to go back to josh on the representative pay Um, josh, I don't know if everybody on the committee knows exactly what a representative pay does um And if you could just explain That particular service and why it's important to your to your Clients that would be helpful for us is yet another facet of what the services are that we would need to pay attention to Sure Representative payee services are folks that are on services that we provide for people who are on Social security And might have some trouble Maintaining their finances and that could be either self identified or working with social security as A requirement to maintain their benefits. They would work with our representative payee who will receive their check Help build a budget with the client themselves that make sure that their Housing is taken care of their bills are being paid and then allocates spending checks for folks each month And we've seen the impact of this Be significant for people, especially as they're newly getting on to social security and maintaining Payments both on bills current bills, but also when they get into housing to stay current on rent because the rent is automatically vended and people still have regular checks that come to them And it's it's really I think it's Important to clarify. It's primarily administrative. So the representative payee is working with the person who is receiving this It's not power of attorney It's just it's basically saying to someone, you know handling the checkbook and and Whether it's teaching them advising them. We're working with them in order to pay those bills in order for them to stay current is that That's how you agree with that. It's not and it's not case management services There's not an element of judgment about what people spend money on It's more so just dividing up the pot in a way that makes sense that everything is covered and so constant check-ins with people to make sure that the budget is Allocated the way that people want it to and in areas where they have a choice In areas where they don't we make sure that they stay on top of their their rent and other Necessities I would add, you know for some people the ideas to help support them get through a period and then to exit the representative payee Program and for other people stasis is achievement and staying in the program and maintaining their bills over a long term Is actually seen as a really positive thing And your and your responsibility as a representative payee is also to make sure that they maintain Uh, there's limits on the amount of money that they can average in their bank accounts and also essentially If not doing the taxes then doing the representative payee social security forms to make sure That they keep receiving the SSIs We uh Compliance piece as well to make sure that they are in good standing with social security As are we and that's something that we get audited for and we have Accountability to social security So there's oversight both internally and externally to make sure that the services that we are providing are by the letter And there's a ton of guidance that social security provides To make sure that people are taken care of but because as you can imagine This could be a program that Could be used as a means for exploitation And so there needs to be good oversight and handling people's money Right. No, it's um Thank you for that. I mean again, it's one of I think what um, I keep saying about this Pandemic or this crisis is that it's exposing everything about everything And so we're learning all these things. Um that again, just simply to say, well, we'll get you housing Isn't enough, you know, simply understanding that your your organization does this is really important to It's important to me to get to really get the big picture I would add that that representative pay you program is a fee for service program And so we do it's a self-sustaining program. We are not getting other funding for this I want to say per client. It is somewhere in the neighborhood of 32 to 35 dollars a month that people pay for this service So it doesn't come cheap in comparison to what the benefit is And so we take our obligation very seriously in terms of making sure that people's bills are are taken care of right All right any further direct questions, um, we have It's it's almost 10 after and we're expecting josh handford from from dhcd at about 130 But I wanted to well first of all I wanted to say Liz that ron has told me that he has emailed you josh's Thank you So josh just to show you how social media works Elizabeth bridge waters shared that with us and we shared it with the world and now we're sending it directly to lis so Thank you But I would like to open up while we have the time right now the conversations because You know, there's I'm Grateful that we're hearing from from addison county and from Brattle borough and I just wanted to you know put out there who Are there other folks that we want to hear from are there people from? Lisa and mariana from your neighborhood. Are there people that you would like to hear as witnesses? I don't want to take someone like rita markley for granted in chitin and county. We've heard from Housing organizations, but she is also the ed of cots You know, are there other people that we want to hear from on And and just to be clear what we talk about the money as well the cares project the cares money Can own would only be able to be used for housing the homeless at this point because the idea of having to stay at home order Means that you have to have a home and so it's directly related to Making sure that there are housing settings for people again. This was an emergency that and and we luck I don't even want to say we lucked out, but we we managed because there was no other traffic happening in in the hotels that we were able to place people in but um I guess one direct question I would have is with the vouchers that you use Either the cold weather of vouchers or the emergency vouchers now are those averaging at about 80 dollars a night with the places that you're you're Placing people because I again using the harbor place model Which they say they almost break even so it's clear that the amount of money that they're charging the state for the but they're charging people they're charging the state for a room and for wraparound services at a number that's you know 42 to 45 dollars a night and We know that from from the information that pathway is shared with us Earlier this week that according to the number of people that they've been able to place In the counties that they work in they're even just a skosh below that and i'm just wondering you know in your experiences with these vouchers um Are the hotels charging The same amount you know the 80 dollars to 85 dollars a night that we're seeing in chitin county and in washington county well Right now the way the motels are working in addison county is it's going through the state So the state is making the arrangements. Um, so if if we have somebody that's eligible We would refer them to economic services and they would place them So I I know that there's been some efforts to get certain room rates sometimes Now when john graham places somebody in a motel, let's say somebody calls an night And uh, we've got to get somebody We would The way we would do that is we would just Call a motel and try to get the best price that we can we have at different times Had arrangements with people For what the price would be but it's it's almost never 45 dollars. I can tell you that It's going to be much more the 60 to the 80 dollar range That's our experience as well. Uh, right now. I think Again, we are not directly paying for the rooms. The state is paying for the rooms and folks are going through economic services But the rate in brattleboro is 75 dollars So around that 80 dollar per night And that's just for the room So in comparison to the harbor place that does not Account for the money the state is spending to support ground works and providing those services to folks in the rooms Which is a really interesting question. I know this committee was grappling with the g a restructure Which kind of got put on hold in some ways and kind of got Pushed into effect in other ways. I mean if you think about the fact that our base of operations now is basically Out of an emergency motel It's a much different scene than what we were talking about with the the g a restructure But a nonprofit nonetheless is managing this emergency motel program. So I think it's fascinating think about What we're learning now and how that would affect the planning and the rollouts of the emergency restructure if and when that does happen You know, we have no idea what timeline looks like for when it's going to be safe or appropriate to unwind the motels and Go back to business as usual or transition to this other model. Again, lots of questions on the table right now I don't I think it's interesting with the with that model. I mean we heard a lot about it and And yet it was still limited to the you know, the cold weather exemptions primarily or specifically because it was winter when we were discussing it but But it's uh, you know, you're right. It's this was this was something that We've all had to just rely on what we know and I'm just so just going off on on that. I mean so How much of this Work that you've done while it's different, right? You're operating, you know, you're not operating the shelter So you're operating these hotel rooms But it seems to me that the that the way that you're able to go about it isn't surprising to you is in out of your It doesn't sound like it's out of You're not reinventing a wheel here You're utilizing all the things that you have all the tools that you've already had in order to make this work Am I am I hearing that right? Yeah, I would agree with that We're not having to reinvent the wheel This is definitely within the wheelhouse of this organization and the work that we've done and I think what we've been prepping for I think what has been different is the scale And so that it's been challenging to scale up appropriately We are hiring people as other Organizations are furloughing people or working from home or laying people off We're actively trying to get people in the front door to help fill in shifts So that it's not our administrative team that's doing that work And I also think that we have a good base of tools that we're able to rely on Really looking at coordinated entry and we're going to give Sarah Phillips some kudos here again She's worked tirelessly over the last few years to help roll out coordinated entry Which is getting information about everybody who's in the system so that we can appropriately apply resources to situation It seems like a basic thing but it is It has the potential to be a huge game changer and I'm Anticipating that we're really going to be able to see the impact of coordinated entry through this process To use it as a planning tool to get more resources into the community We have to target those resources based on what the real need is Tom we we've run almost well two crews. So we don't we have the people our staff members that go Uh that are delivering meals that are serving the people in the motels And then we have the people that are serving people in our buildings So, uh, we haven't wanted to cross pollinate those just in case people did get sick Um, and yeah, I would say I would agree with what josh says. It's not it's within our wheelhouse to do this work Um, but we're trying to kind of keep both going At the same time the difference in Addison county. I think is we don't really have any motels for sale and We with the college we have a year round People coming in and wanting to be in the motels and not necessarily So so it's not like these motels are always going to be available to us To have people in so that's another issue Yeah, I would add that there's no technically no motels and so for sale in Brattleboro either That hasn't limited our dreaming and planning, but it could be a very limiting factor in the short term You know the adage is that everything's for sale, but it comes at a cost. So we'll have to test that out Sure, well, um Go ahead matt. Yep. Go ahead the hotel availability. We we were fortunate that um This crisis hit during a tourist downtime So that's why we had such vacancy rates and availability if this were to happen during foliage or peak summer completely different story Yeah, I I think that's clear too. I mean, that's the that's the the scales right if it was going to happen I guess it's you know It had to happen this way I see that josh has joined us. Um, thank you josh. We'll be right with you. Um so Any further questions for josh davis and for liz reedy? Um, this has been very helpful Uh, I would hope that as the state and as the advocates and as the As the legislature starts to formulate ideas, please stay in touch and share the thinking Again, I don't want to take your experience and your knowledge for granted just because you're far away and not necessarily You're probably more accessible now because of youtube and being able to see our meetings and know what we're talking about um In real time and so I would hope that you would be able to stay in touch with us with as as we continue to discuss this issue because it's really um Again, it's exposing everything about everything and I just really want to be able to make sure we do The best we can do um with this under the circumstances. So thank you, but I see that representative howard has a question as well Let's unmute you thank you both for coming in and testifying and I wanted to say Hello to you liz it's been a long time. Yeah, I follow all your wonderful work though Thank you Thank you. Thank you both Yeah, thank you All right. Um, so just call anytime, you know matt is always knows where I am and you know, so Or p he does our director and you know, so Well, that's right. Congratulations on your retirement start, you know, but don't stop working So, uh, welcome commissioner um You are yeah welcome. Um, are we the 47th meeting you've had today? Today it today's been, you know medium light. It's about the third zoom call or teams or skype or whatever format with you, but uh Gotten we've all gotten used to him by now. So the real challenge is when um You know, you're on one you've just finished the last last one and all the action items are coming through when you're on the other one and you're trying to You know catch up um real time, but I was really grateful that our floor time was done by 11 30 today so that we had a little bit of a break at least to um To eat, you know step outside for a minute And thanks for um pushing me back towards the end of your time to accommodate my schedule Absolutely. We're very grateful that you're coming. Um, we wanted we've we we had a conversation with commissioner shats last week and um and with his team uh, well with jeff pipinger in particular and then um, We haven't been able to get sarah in but uh, that's we've been getting the commissioner in so I guess that's More than sufficient. He has shared with us some really key information about Where folks are in the in the aftermath where we're homeless folks have been placed And so I I wanted you to come in because we hadn't talked to you since probably the end of march We may have talked to you right before We closed or right after but you know, some of the issues that have come up recently in conversation We just wanted a clarification on where you were where the department of housing was um on not only on what um what you're seeing in terms of Uh the overall planning That may that may be starting But also, um, we had can we have We wanted to get a an update on some of the perhaps the rental assistance or rental arrearage programs that We had started talking about in the normal course of business before before march 13th with the hop grants etc and um In particular the hop grants, but uh, whether there were other programs that have been starting to be talked about and then um I believe you were out of town when we talked about the rental registry program in age 739 And uh, chan gilpin was was in your stead And we just wanted to get an update on where you are with some of the thinking behind that. We've taken a lot of testimony Not about 739 in particular recently But that the that the notion of a rental registry has come up Again and again as as determining as we move forward in the short and medium and long term thinking about where do we house these folks, um We have all done this the administration the state has done a great job in getting people Off the streets and into these motel rooms, but we also know that an emergency period is going to end Motel rooms on top of that are Not ideal long term, but they've been but getting folks off the street getting an accurate account has been Has been incredibly helpful So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to fill us in and uh, let us ask some questions between now and two o'clock. So Microphone is yours Sure, great. Well, thank you. Um, you know for the record josh hanford commissioner housing and community development In the agency commerce community development Um, happy to talk with you, um about what's been going on. Um, what I know um First off, uh, you know, we've been in lots of coordination with a hs sarah philips and allison heart in particular and some of our other housing um partners, um Vhf a vhcb sort of talking about the rehousing plan as as sort of it's being loosely referred to you know trying to Take advantage of this, um Uh, place we're in where you know, we have people housed Not in the best circumstances, but they're they're housed and we know who they are We know the needs and how can we Transform this into something that is is uh better than it was we can't go back to how things were And so there's been a lot of people thinking about this and what we can do To get there and there's clearly very short term Immediate actions that need to be taken sort of mid-range and then long-range actions um And there's a little bit of uncertainty about The covid relief fund and how those could be used for some of the more permanent long-range actions we need From a peer timing perspective And i'm not going to pretend to answer those questions the guidance from You know the treasury that you know our uh the state administration fiscal office from legislature everyone sort of A little wishy washy on what it all means but um What I can't tell you is A couple couple certainties So we're getting four four point two million in cdbg community development block grant covid relief funds We've worked really fast to put up a draft action plan. It's on our website right now Five days of public comment and this thing is being submitted Mid next week so that it can get a fast turnaround from HUD and we can get that money in our account and start um awarding it and the plan there is is three parts One of its small business assistants, you know get small grants You know $5,000 grants in the hands of small businesses in ramon, you know, main street restaurants Retail to keep them surviving and we have a partner to help us do that. It's modeled a little off after What happened after iran but and then another piece that's You know grants to nonprofits and municipalities to help them with their sort of critical needs during this time You know think, you know restocking food shelves or meals on wheels, whatever But the other piece is emergency rental assistance.  I think our estimate was we could serve 400 uh households 4 to 600 households with what we've set aside so it's about um 1.8 to the rental assistance program about 1.9 to the business assistance and then the balance to that small grant program Now that's a drop in the bucket. It's not going to be Nearly meeting the need out there, but it'll be you know something and we took uh, um comments from from Folks and we had a public hearing and clearly Rental assistance was on folks minds. They know that this is needed. It's not something we typically do It's not really usually allowed with cdbg funds, but under these circumstances it is um We're partnering with our home ownership centers, which are the nonprofit organizations around the state to deliver this um, they typically don't do rental assistance either, but this is sort of um Different than the public housing authorities and the Vermont state housing authority in the typical rental assistance they run Um, we already have grant agreements with those folks. So we're going to quickly amend them divided up by uh proportional amongst their service areas and they can um, they already have those relationships with You know landlords and renters in their region. So that's one thing we know we can address this problem with The other piece in coordination with ahs's rehousing plan, which I don't want to um You know release it's not it's not a mind to release But we are partners and I think they're looking at this as a partner plan. This is not just a ss's plan It's it's dhcd as well as vhcb's vhfa's the whole network But ahs is still vetting this within their agency and various other Folks before they release it, but you know, I can say that one element of that plan Is to use as much cobit relief funds as as possible right now and part of that plan um We've been pushing at the department of housing community development is for more rental assistance um a big chunk for another tranche of emergency rental assistance three months Based on the median gross rent in brahman um And it serve as many um households, you know, this is This is going to benefit both the renters, you know We we can't afford to have another set of evictions and more people homeless So that's why this fits in their homeless plan, you know, their plan to rehouse the um 1300 households or 2000 individuals including children in these motels Depends on not um a whole bunch of new homeless people So we have to um hold the line And so we can't be having evictions not to mention in a court system clogged up all the extra costs So what can we do to help as many people many new families not be evicted? Um, so that's a big chunk of these funds a three month rental assistance Um proposal based on how much we can get out of this cobit relief fund You know, we have a number in there and And and rated to how many people we think we can serve based on what we think we can get Of course with um The administration and the legislature reviewing all these proposals in the very near term um And we would partner with the state housing authority and others to disperse this rental assistance because it's going to be a much bigger package In addition to that um Part of that plan has a rental rehab component um because um, you know, the the real solution here is not putting people back into congregate settings and homeless shelters It's it's permanent housing. Um, and there's a number of forms for that, you know, obviously we're going to need new permanent supportive housing that's developed But that takes time to develop and to finance and to build, you know, even if you buy a Uh a motel and refurbish it that there's time there plus some of our communities actually have adequate housing stocks So ahs actually, you know, they recognize this earlier talk talk to us and said, hey, shouldn't this be a component? Can we maybe retool v-hip? um And so we've been working behind the scenes on what that would look like and they sort of have a target number of households that they think A program like this a rental rehab would fit nicely into their entire plan to rehouse this total group of people um That is doable, you know, it's a rehab program that can get results in four or five months. Um It clearly has a bigger incentive than the original plan of seven thousand dollars I mean for two reasons, you know, the work needs to get done immediately and you're asking folks This would be private stock um, you know, rental rental stock of homes that are You know in need of code repair Some of them might be vacant and blighted, but um, you know, this works really well in places like Rutland or st. John's berry or berry where there's adequate housing stock, but it needs Rehab it's it's in poor shape um But to convince, you know, those property owners to um, you know, take In homeless people that incentive the original seven thousand dollars and you have to match the match it three times with private loans Under these circumstances is not going to get the attention we need. So we're thinking bigger bigger amount Um, you know, I'll sort of wait for the plan to be released But I think it's fair to say that it's you know, two or three times what we were thinking and that For the units that would be dedicated to rehousing the homeless That would function as a grant and they would have conditions They would have an mlu with a service provider. They would need to fulfill those commitments and keep those units affordable for a period of time even if the homeless rehousing tenants to see Ended or fail. They would have conditions to keep those units Serving low-income people for some foreseeable future um So this is this is this is excuse me, so this is just taking what was in 7 39 Which is the v hip program, which has been discussed I mean, we passed a version of it last year that didn't go through um, but this is basically taking this program and um Refashioning it to the crisis Because it's uh, I mean it sounds like to me from just the words you use that it was a little bit of v hip it was a little bit of um H448 which was the blighted properties That that representative walls and representative anthony had brought forward and it sounds like um, if i'm not if i'm hearing you correctly that it's That there is a proposal to make it at a higher level in order to get these these apartments online faster and to make it more attractive, but um So that kind of language Where does 7 39 fit in or the language that's already existing Yeah, I don't know what the best mechanism. Um, you know, first this has to get Approved um from within the administration. It's been floated folks have seen there's a general support of this but You know, everyone's asking for this cobit relief money, you know, so much of it's already been spent and Where this shakes out and how it's presented to the legislature And if all of the ass are going to be in a new bill, you know, some of the language Around v hip that's in you know the senate version and in your version It could be a basis, but frankly, there's a lot of changes. It might just be easier to start fresh um You know using that That concept the concept's still there um of v hip, but it's going to have to have new sort of um You know enhancements to it and some some ease of Of some of the conditions, you know If you remember v hip was only for vacant or abandoned, you know blighted We're going to want to expand that and you know, sort of any apartment that has code issues or You know can't meet um, you know, sort of a basic sort of health test It doesn't need to be to the level that it's vacant and so we'll have to change a few things There's a a white paper right now that's being developed that could be the basis for You know the new legislation or changing what we have Um, I'm just not sure what the best vehicle is to get this funded considering It'll be part of a larger package of ass. It might be better to place it there rather than um Somewhere else, but it's fair to say that for the units that would be targeted to rehouse the homeless The incentive would be more attractive. It would be bigger It would probably be some sort of forgivable loan that converts to a grant what they've met the conditions um, and it would have to incentivize sort of immediate work and You know the number range that ahs, you know that how they're trying to scale this out and phase this out This isn't going to be um, like the majority of households, you know, maybe we're talking 150 to 250 household somewhere in that range that we could pull something like this off um with these funds So That that's that I think hits a lot of um other goals You know once this housing is is rehabbed and it's in better shape and it you know, maybe we get past this crisis It's going to have a purpose and serve it's going to serve a needed um a need in the future So it's a good investment that still can deliver what we need at A little lower cost than than uh building fresh new supportive housing um To the additional way, but some of our communities don't have this housing stock that this can work, you know It's not going to be as many you it's available in parts of chitin county or in lamoille county you know, so we have to um Target this to places that have this sort of housing stock and it's not going to meet all the need and i'm still somewhat concerned about um The uh conditions around, you know, all this money being spent by december 30th You know if we can make contracts get people working, but all the work's not done Are we gonna lose enough to pay back? We still need some clarity on that but There's certainly a better shot at rehabbing an existing unit and spending this money than building fresh, you know, um So those are the two areas, you know, the rental assistance a short-term rental assistance program to revet new homeless homeless This rental rehab and then the next wave that's coming that I think when we get another Chunk of cdbg money cobit relief cdbg money, which we will The next place we need to focus is starting on um foreclosure mitigation I mean, you know, there are a lot of homeowners in ramon that are low income They're on the edge It's not going to take long before we have a foreclosure crisis and that You know prevent homelessness there is going to be where the next need is in five months that we'll be Putting a program together to help there and hopefully we have a lot of federal support um Because that's even harder to unwind and fix and once people are displaced and out of those homes The problem gets harder to fix so There's a lot going on A lot of people collaborating um in good ways right now And you know, I hope that ahs is able to prevent this present this joint plan Very soon so that we all know what we're all asking for and we find the best vehicle to um fund it have the debates about what makes sense and how much um Alongside everyone else is asked, you know from healthcare industry education and public service and you know Because there's a lot of critical needs out there, but this is a time to Have a you know transformative change With with serving the homeless and I think everyone's on board with doing that and You know, there's some smart people that have worked really hard at preventing, you know An outbreak and doing incredible work to get us where we are And we don't want to fall back No, I appreciate that and the work has been the work has been really fun I'm gonna let me think back on march 12th when we started this conversation The idea was that the um The shelters would be incredibly uh powerful vectors and we haven't seen that at all Right, right. So representative. We have a couple of questions here representative hango and then kolecki Thank you Hi josh, um as you recall from our meetings up in richford. Um, we have A lot of issues with landlords, right? So last night I had a really heart-wrenching call with a landlord who owns Quite a number of properties um And this person my constituent is just absolutely falling into debt because she's got people who can't pay Um, their rent she's concerned about the length of time that she's going to have before she can Set things in motion through a court process. She has been Communicating with the wonderful program that legal aid set up in franklin county with the courts to help renters with Arirages, however, that's just not enough. So she Does really own a lot of properties. Um, and the danger there is most of the people are low income Or on fixed incomes or receiving lots of benefits.  They they feel like they should be Considered to be small business people rather than just landlords And she's wondering what kind of assistance we're going to give to landlords because we're giving so much to people who are tenants And right now the landlords are really struggling financially Do you see anything coming down the pike that I can give her a little relief and say You know, maybe by july there's going to be some money for you Well, um, yeah, I mean Inbox is full of um, you know, just awful stories of folks that are going through struggles Like that, you know Folks themselves that are lower income and they're depending on their rent to pay their mortgage and their heat and You know when when rent stops Coming in you can't pay the service guy to come fix the furnace or to fix the broken window. It just spirals Um, I think these emergency rental Assistance payments rental rearage whoever you want to define it The idea is that three months worth of rent if it's if it's been missed or it's been reduced That money goes right to the landlord, you know, the the tenant and the landlord agree. This is owed. It hasn't been paid and the um organizations we would use to um administer this that how's it the Homeownership centers would make those payments directly to the landlord so that they they can Continue to offer their, um, you know properties for rent You know, if it gets to the point where people aren't collecting any rent and and they Can't pay their bills We risk not having these places be habitable and safe places for people to live So the the idea would be that this would go to the landlord With, you know, some affidavits and things to make sure that they weren't paid through some other source or something else didn't Assist them along the way, you know And one of the um interesting things here is, you know, the the eviction and moratorium bill is is past It's it's on the governor's desk. Um You know, almost certain he's going to be signing it. Um, what not great work On all sides here, you know, but there's really important messaging that goes along with that that, you know To the extent people have been able to access unemployment or these other special programs You know food and shelter, you know, they have to be among the first things you pay for with those funds Otherwise our whole system doesn't work. You don't go into the grocery store and you know, go to the checkout Sorry, I can't pay you have to let me take this. It just doesn't Work that way because you know, the housing system depends on payment by someone at some level And so this is just a band aid this um emergency rental assistance But it would go to help some of those landlords. So The first chance that I um suggested from cdbg that will absolutely be available in july This other covet relief funding, you know, if we can make this way make this through the legislature with administration and get it In our hands quickly it may even be available before before the federal funds Because it's already the state already has authority to use the money for this purpose You know, I think that bigger picture There needs to be longer-term rental assistance rental assistance expansion That's part of a hs's plan. You'll see when it's released They know that in order to rehouse the homeless to keep more people from being homeless We're going to need Longer-term rental assistance people's incomes have been diminished Their ability to work and return to normal has been interrupted Um, we can't expect housing providers be the profit or nonprofit to provide free housing They have expenses too. So we've got to um interrupt this and and um have this system Work as we need it to work. So I know some of these landlords are holding on by by fingernails right now and are really scared about What's going to happen? They don't they can't kick people out right now. They shouldn't kick people out right now But how does that serve them in the long run serve any of us? But they have to pay their bills too. So I hear you I just want to follow up for just a second on that. So if this does but become available and um The money is going to go directly to landlords if a tenant it has not paid rent in three months How is that proven if the courts aren't working? Yeah, so there is um soon as this emergency order ends um, you know the eviction moratorium bill, you know, I don't know it inside it out but I know enough that um, you can still um file your um You know if tenants haven't been paying rent you can still file that into the court and and ask the tenant to Okay, catch up on your rent now and if they can't catch up because they don't have it There's your proof that they haven't paid it. Um I've talked to a counterpart in maine, you know, they stood up a program Um really quick two or three weeks. Um, but they have a different system They tapped into their what we call our property transfer tax and they produced $500 checks to 20 000 landlords across the state $500 that's it one time, but they said if you take this You and your landlord are agreeing your landlord is agreeing to not evict you It's only a partial payment. It's just one month, but we're giving you some money Um, and they had a whole system to track that and affidavit and some of this, you know, you have to um You know, you use mechanisms like affidavit that can be checked up later. Um, you know, so so Everything's not going to be perfect, but there will be a way to verify whether someone's paid Um, and we could use these partners that we have that that do this work all the time And get to the bottom of um, if there's a disagreement between the tenant and the landlord, you know, the tenant says I paid well You know, there's there's could be some investigation of well, where did that money go? Let me see your bank receipts, you know, that that will be Um, verified to the extent it can So just just so you're aware and I know you probably are but i'm going to drive this point home Her concern was the bill that we passed is actually going to delay any action for another 30 days After the state of emergency is ended whenever that may be So by that point in time, she's already out, you know, like three or four months rent for every tenant who hasn't been able to pay And if you're if you're a landlord and you own, you know, say 10 Apartments or 10 properties or whatever. That's an awful lot of money an awful lot of tenants who could just be Not paying right now and for some to ask one family one one couple to Swallow that and um, have no other recourse is is I I'm afraid for I'm afraid for these people I really am I'm afraid that they're going to lose All the investment that they've had that they've put in And and then they're going to have all kinds of court costs down the road and they may not even see a resolution to this So, um, you know, I got beat up pretty hard last night about s333 that week I I can I can envision what what you experienced in, um, you know, the the rental assistance isn't the only piece You know, that can pay for rent that hasn't been paid. But you're right Um landlords are small businesses And you know, so far the pp PPP and others haven't really worked because of determinations by sba and others about That the business of being a property owner landlord But some of the package that's in the economic recovery side of what our agency is proposing for corona relief Small business such as landlords would be eligible for these other incentives more grants and more loans You know zero percent deferred payments that, um, you know, I'm hoping folks Like your constituent could take advantage of to at least slow the bleeding until things become somewhat normalized You know, and then also, you know That I know the eviction bill slows the process But to the extent that tenants, you know, we're receiving increased unemployment or receiving federal stimulus or other things It doesn't stop the obligation to pay. Um And so, you know, I've heard stories in other parts of the country, which I'm glad hasn't taken root here about You know rent strikes and things where even if people have money they're being encouraged not to pay their landlord and you know, um That that just you know, we haven't had that and I don't think we will But um, you know, that puts a whole system in jeopardy and when when this bill is finally signed and we all start talking about it All of the partner organizations Having the same clear message that you know, things are hard. We know it but you know This is not a waiver of what you owe As tough as that is on the tenant side as well Is important for us all to to speak to Thank you Commissioner hansford, thank you. And you know to see the response of your team and everybody's team the administration in the past Six weeks has been profound and how everyone dove in and and it's really thrilling We are hearing in the committee For many advocates in the last couple of weeks That there is a kind of synergy of focus that everyone's sort of aligned at this moment and this rehousing plan That you you mentioned that a hs is working on and you know, interdepartmentally Are the advocates also at those tables to kind of Develop that this proposal Yes, um Not everyone, um, but the the other advocates is um you know specific, uh View in my mind, but there are other folks that Advocate for affordable housing that are also funders like vhcb and vhfa If they're at the table and wear this the An input has certainly been taken from those like cht who has a proposal and others out there That is all in form of this You know the the small circle of funders, you know the five or so Have tried to not um, you know, if you let uh, you know one advocacy group In that circle of that plan then you have to let everyone So, um, I don't know if it's fair to say that there have been entirely all part of the effort But all the funders have which include vhcb vhfa and remonstrate housing authority Which are all clearly connected to the advocates or the housing developers. However um, you you view that um And it's it takes into account some of their requests that you're all aware of around Clearly a certain the need for services you need funding to go along with the units that you need And um, you need rental assistance. Those are the three things that make this work rental assistance the actual units and the services um I don't know if the exact percentage about how much should be new construction for the long-term solution Is all the same, but all the components are in this draft plan that's been informed by their work And are any legislators working with with any of you on this as well? Um on this small team, there's not been a legislature in this group. I think that um, you know, you guys are asking the right questions and are you know, aware that this is happening You've had ken in you know me you you've had you know christiannally others um I think we're really waiting for this plan to sort of break so we can all have um, you know full open conversations around um The different components of it and you know, as I said what what i'm not clear of is how this plan Fits in with like our economic recovery plan for the covet money You know to public public safety health education. Everyone is doing this same work And what are all these numbers out up to and then what is the incredible hard work that you guys are going to have to do to prioritize these funds that seem like A fortune to even be talking about these numbers, you know in a normal year is just incredible, you know But it's it's going to add up real fast Yeah, and do you I I know it's in development and you're everyone's working in the middle of the crisis still Do you do you have an estimated timeline and when when this rehousing plan might be presented? um Yeah It's I would say soon. Um, I know that you know that that There's a lot been talked about enough and and shared in big picture enough that it's um It's got to be soon. Otherwise, it's going to get out ahead of itself. Um, so I can't answer specifically but it should be soon Well, I I Certainly for me and I think our committee is so eager to see this so we don't start trying to address things piecemeal Right look at a more holistic way and I think that this crisis has taught us to work differently And I think this is a great opportunity. And so, you know, it is Whatever iteration you're ready to have a conversation I I think we're because also the timeline is very short to try to figure out how right right, you know, I I think that sort of the the the big picture summary and text version is um It's been distributed to a few folks for comments. So that may be showing up anytime soon What is the challenge is the actual numbers behind everything that this is, you know, ahs's budget and plan and that's what um You know has to be, uh, you know vetted and approved, you know, properly before it's out there for everyone to react to um But I you know, I'll check with um, I know I have a call with sarah phillips and allison hard and ahs on monday um Where I think it's a final review of this stuff. So, um We'll just try to get a sense from them when they think they're gonna get there. Okay Thank you. Thank everybody. It's been The watch Yeah All right representative triano Thank you. Um, so I don't want to go off on another tangent as I did last week, but uh Property taxes is an issue that's been on my mind now when mora collins was here. She said that there have been some conversations So we can protect property owners and landlords from uh foreclosure on their banks But if they happen to be in a rear a year or two years a year or two in their property taxes Uh and unable to pay them as a result of this Certainly they can lose their property to the town as a result of a property tax sale So, you know, I mean this we talk about I I think in terms of spiraling up inspire instead of spiraling down in the terms of the The tax cities and municipalities and towns that are now looking at lack of revenue for from these property taxes And maybe we should be thinking in terms of no interest loans to uh to cities and towns In order to keep them afloat without the revenue that's coming in from these property taxes And I think that would be a little bit more in your in your ballpark. I guess uh commissioner Um, yeah, thanks for the comment. I I would um, we've had a few conversations with treasurer pierce about The sort of financial instruments out there to do that for communities. Um I would be Pretending and making things up if I if I told you I fully understood All the options and and what the preferred action is. Um, she Was waiting for some more guidance on one of the big sort of instruments that could do that there's there was some concern about um Some of some of the options there. So, you know, I I can't fully answer your question. I would I I'd maybe reach out to her office and see Uh What it Where she's going on that because it would um, you know, it would be probably a treasury solution that would have some of the state on the hook and um And the league of cities and towns they're both following that um closely, you know, I think one concern You know, there's been a lot of proposals floated, you know, whether it's helping, you know Small restaurants get back open or whatnot that well, jeez one of the biggest expenses that seem to never be forgiven that people still It's all it's all, you know, the rooms and meals tax or whatever it is. And why don't we forgive that? and You know, it becomes one of these well, that's our very revenue to keep things going and to provide the support so do we You know cut off our own foot as we're trying to sprint here and so um There's been a lot of thinking about that and thinking that, you know, direct stimulus grants loans to those industries With the coven money, it's clear They can't use those directly to turn around and pay state taxes that that's that's prohibited but If they can use that money to pay their other debts or pay to restock the shelves Well, that frees up some of their money to pay the state taxes Which is going to allow us to all do the work that we know we need to do so I think some of the miscipalities in the treasure and and folks are looking at those options to sort of not um You know wipe out what you owe is taxes to keep our government going but find ways to put more money in your hands You can pay those taxes. Um But I I don't have any more detail on that for you. That's okay. I just yeah go off on that direction on occasion All right being conscious uh being conscious of time here. I just want to um Josh, I mean there's so much as you can tell that's going on and I appreciate you sharing with us all of the different moving pieces We also understand, you know, we started off the meeting with an understanding that Guidelines on how to use the money is of course a moving target as well and so part of the delay or part of the Processing in this in this stuff is trying to determine what how much can be used. Um, I'm less worried about What you're going to end up with in two weeks when when when we put two billion dollars worth of requests in front of the administration As much as uh, and then has to be whittled down but as much as I am about getting Being as inclusive as possible and and I think since Since the um the 13th of March Um, you know, we are viewing all of this differently. Um, there is a sense that Uh, we've always had a sense that if we do something for landlords, we need to do something for tenants and vice versa And now it's this is that this includes the money situation that we talked about earlier. Um We talked about it legally with s333, uh, but I would suggest that we um When it comes to what the v-hit program is, I think that you know, just to remind you when we passed s163 last year We this committee did in essence approve the v-hit program and it didn't go any further than just to the floor before it was pulled back at the beginning of this year But it's a concept that we've taken a lot of testimony on this year. It's a it's a it's an idea along with the rental registry and the and the um safety provisions that were in h739 that we've dealt with so just keep that in mind as a vehicle moving forward Regardless of the growth it might have to go through in order to take on I mean, it's again, it sounds like two or three different bills that we've already taken testimony on so to get there To get an understanding of the number because again, we have to request this of appropriations You know, it's all I think I think we're We have a good background on what on what the um issues are with with creating a program like this and and so Just keep that in mind as you move forward and um, yeah One other component I forgot to mention it's It is in the framework of this plan. Um is also, you know, we have a resource in some of our mobile home parks where You know, there's some empty lots and you know, if we can strengthen the infrastructure in some of those um And strengthen the the long-term viability of them By purchasing homes putting them there and rehousing the homeless and sort of Do this all together with these funds. That's another component, you know It's not the be all end all it's a small sliver and slice, but it could be the right Fix for certain situations. And so that's also a component component that we All of the the funders and the partners have talked about that Could be part of this plan too. So I just wanted to throw that out there. Sure. Sure and um So I think uh, we will Call it a day For us. Thank you committee This is um, I'm just going to back out early. It's my anniversary. So I'm As much as I love my legislative family I gotta go And um, so thank you for josh, thank you for your time. I think it's uh, it's it's been great To perspective again, we heard some good testimony from ahs and I imagine we will continue to do so and um committee I will work with uh Ron we're going to continue this housing conversation. Maybe we'll invite um, sarah phillips and see if post post monday we can get her in or or the equivalent, but um, this is still an issue that I think is in development and um Your ideas on this in terms of who we might want to invite next to hear from Moving forward is uh, just send send me an email or a text later and we'll and we'll