Hi everyone, welcome again today. Let's take a moment and stretch out our necks, raise our hands over our head, touch your toes And now it's time to go Thanks for watching us everyone joining us from around the world We're one hour west of Toronto in the studio behind the camera is mr. Jeff. What's up, everybody?  Hey everyone. Okay, so what are we gonna do today? Let's head to the table of contents Sandy's happy to see you Hannah by the way And she's and this is her last day everybody so everybody say Sayonara she's going back to school boo. Good morning Donna Cody Shafirta Patricia welcome. We're about to get started here Miriam Miriam Miriam from the UK But we're learning together welcome Trisha for your first time. Oh cool Trisha. This is gonna be a life-changing Yep, we had such good success last week with metal spray paint Let's let's look at that. Let's take a look. We're gonna do some large pieces with We did these ones you remember Pull it right like it just looks amazing. I mean it's a different effect hold it there. Yeah, that looks really good though That's Just experimenting and seeing what happens, right? So we're gonna do that with metallic spray paint and that was one of your So, thank you for that not me behind the camera the people our audience Nope Like show them cover your favorite and turn the camera like that Just give me something. Can it does that work? I mean I can't see if I'm not filming. Oh, what's that? What's that two weeks ago? We tested essential oils and resin to cure to see if you can make objects that have a scent that didn't work You didn't smell anything last week Someone suggested we try fragrance oils. I don't know the differences, but we had this cool little silicone mold I Think it's out of the mold. Oh, it's still there. Yeah, I don't know what this mold. Oh, this is the lid for an ice cube tray So this is fragrance oil, I don't know what the difference is And it does have a bit of a smell no way can you turn on the smell button? Yeah They're ready with that. Oh That's like vanilla. Yeah, it was vanilla. So fragrance oils seem to work We're gonna do now that we know that we're gonna do more fragrance oil tests Okay, and then we can say like why do you need to smell that was someone's question and it's a very good question and the answer is If you missed the answer that question stay tuned maybe we can make like look at like a mold of like a lotus flower and We'll fill it with essential oil Hmm, and then it'll be this beautiful object you put there. It just has a nice smell Lotus flower You make one of those so they'll be fake flowers with just smells I don't know if we got too many fans of the smelling here people are like, we don't need it to smell Why do we need to smell it? It's a good point. It's a really good point Why do you need to smell it? That could be the answer to the first question. Yeah, just don't do this Okay, I'm gonna cross this out. Boom. There we go.  Mm-hmm. That's the rubber, right? Yeah, this is this is rubber So this was someone's suggestion I should put gloves on Thank you, sandy. Thank you sandy. What did you not do to open the video that you always do?  I know she's not watching this live. Thanks for watching the kids. Um I hope you enjoy this video. It's not live. We won't be able to talk but uh, thank you Thank you for uh, giving me life and Putting up with my teenage years La la la That's good. Thank you. All right back to rubber. Okay, so I'm gonna go put some gloves on and try and peel this off Okay, this way was painting rubber on it and we're gonna order at something else called uh monster latex It was suggested by someone I can't find it in canada But I could find it in the u.s. So I'll get But it's it's what if you want to turn yourself into a zombie for a film It's the latex that you paint on so it's very safe. Oh, that's cool And so we're gonna try and paint it on the back and just see if it's also a good art material Oh cool So painter's tape is kind of the go-to But painter's tape is only really good usually if you take it off the very next day If you leave it for a full week like we did here It's very difficult to get off. Yeah, it's better like 24 hours boom and it really rips right off So that's usually the tried and true method, right? Yeah, let's just take it out. Like look at this I'm gonna I'm gonna just sand this I think you don't have to be too much work Um, but the latex so far not very good Not very good I wonder if that's also is it the certain material that you're on as well versus Like metal. Yeah. Well, we're gonna try this monster latex. See if it's any different. I'm smart. Kathy says. Yeah I've heard that too. I using a hairdryer to loosen tape. Even if you've left it too long. Oh, really? Yeah smart Do you have a hairdryer here? Okay, why don't we just do that here? Hello from Spain, burrito is here That's the best handle I've heard all day. Oh, yeah, maybe here eucalyptus oil This is the actual size of the actual That is Oh Put a mask on her Like a mask so here's this Is Yeah, give her one. Let's see if it See if it comes off easier. We just saw it where it was more difficult to come off. So let's see how it goes Kim is recommending pastels And welcome. I think uh, there's people saying hello. So hello to everybody. I'm sorry We were just going through the table of contents then we got distracted I don't want to do this too noisy and boring. Okay, but we'll try it And let you know. Thank you Victoria. She's complimenting your studio. Thanks, Victoria Do you like like this thing over here? Come So we can move it around Yes Okay, so large we're gonna do that. We talked about the back circles We're gonna do monster latex And then that's someone was asking about textured paintings I'm a perfect. There's a couple ways you can do texture paintings with resin A perfect example and do one of these today. This is actually Rebecca did these and she'd sell them for I think $25 At art shows and she can do them really quick. It's wall plaster And then with the back of a paintbrush, she would she would do that and then she'd paint them And then she sold them like that But then we resin some just so that could the plaster can come off And the one way to resin it is like this where you can see all these bumps Right And you can just leave it like that or what we're going to do is we're going to do three different options Um, we're going to show you resigning this one Plaster just one coat on this one We're actually going to sand down all these high points and then resin it so that a texture painting becomes a flat painting But you can still see the textures and this one. We're just going to stand a bit To give it some grit and we're just going to pour another coat on top of this one Try and give it like a smooth top you mean? Yeah So textured painting we're going to resin that So there's really three things we're doing today The large canvases spray paint Mountings we have questions about lace resigning lace, so we're going to mount some lace On a big piece of wood in the resin it I also ordered some other like lace dowelies that we can test it I have some other ideas, but that's something to do I guess And then texture painting. So let me grab some sandpaper Hannah how's the mixing going? We're using up all of our returns from shipping to mix up a whole bunch of it Jeff do you think you can entertain people while I go get some sandpaper? No, please Jeff. Okay. Thank you. All right So textured paintings There's the lace that they's talking about doing some lace work with this piece here So we'll do that see how that works out As far as returns These aren't Bad returns. They are merely just returns because probably they got two hardners or two resins and whatnot And that is that so now we're getting days getting up the sandpaper. So are we doing the texture first? Look in the garage at And we'll prepare the lace piece So what I'm going to do here is And I'm going to do this on the ground because it's going to be really messy. All right So we're going to do this lemon. Now the problem is with this method These will probably have to be white dots here Yes That might be a little loud Jeet, so let's see how that turns out. What do you got? I think we recommend that One second Hopefully there's no high points. Let's pick out it all Nice So, let's try the mix one too Okay, so we'll show you some sand stuff Bonsoir Estelle and someone was mentioning I think it was Jeanie was mentioning that you look relaxed today Really? I'm not relaxed. How many times am I just buzzing? And no shoes in the studio Dave? No, I've built up multiple layers of resin on the bottom of my feet So I'm actually made out of resin So I came over here to get something. It was this So this is what sand looks like in resin if you ever people want to do desert scenes This is just playground sand. It turns it wet looking. We added some color to the sand To try and bring it down to like sun bleach sand and that didn't work So the next step is to try some colored sand And we'll get that today I kind of have an idea for this piece. I don't know if Jeff will like it though Do what you gotta do. You are the artist. I merely can only film and edit Yeah, because I love it there's like a little lagoon there Okay, what are you changing it from I will scream is it gonna are you totally changing from even a desert lagoon or oasis? Well All right, yeah, because I was just seeing it like, you know, you put something there like just some sort of oasis there I do like the different Yeah, it's like a mirage in the desert sandy.  You're gonna just Okay, the exact center point All right, and there we go. We're mixing up a nice big batch. Holy cow Nice You're gonna miss this Thank you, Alexis for saying it's patricia. Sorry. I missed might have missed your question patricia Doesn't big Does the big huge batch get too hot Yeah, we'll use it quick enough though. Yeah, we'll get we'll get it once it's done mixing here We're gonna pour it out and I get right to it I wouldn't let it sit So what is going on so you are doing thing ah There's been a lot of people saying they're gonna miss you A lot of people are gonna miss Hannah Uh led and resin actually we are playing with leds right now off off camera. So, uh, Yeah, we could probably try and play with something there. What is happening here? Is this an eye? Oh Here we go guys the reveal of david rebecca's latest edition There's summer Look at summer. Hi summer And rebecca. Hi rebecca So cute yet Donna is a fan Did you mail laura a strawberry mold? Yeah. Yeah, it's on your way on the way laura Oh patricia is asking what resin to use for coasters Absolutely. Yeah Got to worry about the heat if you're putting a Hot but it does work. Absolutely The mom of that for giving me this and we ate off of this She put a cloth table cloth And then uh, and then put this over top so you see through like the bright dark red at christmas, you know. Oh, yeah. Yep Yeah, mom does the same thing. Yeah, but she said, you know what that's not cool anymore. You can destroy it on your live wednesday youtube show Oh janine a couple people are requesting just to do a resin geode You do one We'll just have to follow one of the there's so many youtube tutorials on that Mm-hmm Boom it's on the list there you go people texture painting so I have steel wool See at that. Oh, yeah If that's good for buffing just for the next so i'm not sanding this one. I just want to Give it some grip. Oh, I see steel wool seems to be interesting. Who's doing that? Yeah, not nearly as good as sandpaper So the oasis desert is dead. No, no, no, no, it's gonna be something like Now it's just staring into my soul. No, we'll find out and we'll find out Stay tuned on that one fold this over And staple gun it in there and then resin it on top of this piece. Oh, okay Here we go Breaking out a new tool the staple gun What's up, john? Does our product go to france? Yes, we have Really Things have been going so well lately There is good stuff. Yeah, let's talk about that. What is some good stuff happening? Hmm. You got a puppy. That's good Right alexis puppy. Puppy love Uh, there are movie theaters are opening up if people enjoy going to the movie theaters Tenant looks very good. Tom cruise went and saw it and said it was good. Yeah, he did He's still dude. He's going. He's like going strong. He's got two more mission impossible's coming out He does have a bit of a um Uh uniqueness to him in the personal side of things, but I think his movies are excellent Look at that Dude, you could just sell it like that Wow, you just upped the ante on this one already 007 laura. Yeah, that's right. 007's coming out. So that's good people looking for sports are back I know there's no audience, but at least they're back So there's good things. Hannah, give me one good thing For 2020 Yeah, but you can still learn And get together with your friends and your closed circles There we go Good things people good things. All right, which oh what you got there? I heard that with the governments. I was listening to the onion news this morning. Yeah And they're talking about how the government is um Is deploying a bunch of buzz kills Out into the world to go to people's parties and make them suck It's a great idea Well, if that's actually in the form of bees that makes sense because I've got tons of my backyard Yes, and as sandy says which is very true. We have time to create So that is one thing that's never a that's a great great point The only good thing look at that fantastic. What's wrong? Uh, yeah, I think we can get on there one more one more turn Does the resin does not stick to plastic Which is why it's a perfect base to put your pieces on top of so that you can pull it off without it sticking to it Yeah, now that's yeah, let's do it Yeah, you ready I'm gonna stop because now we're gonna totally get comments right now going like what is that annoying This is looking good though, man Keep singing, okay, I don't know Okay, let's go for stuff. Let's look at our list. The list never lies The list never lies. The list never lies Um, what can we stand these up on? The list never lies This is another soundtrack to follow lots of dog food here summer summer treats Can you not hear Dave? I'm hearing can't hear Dave check check microphone. Are we okay? Let us know let us know everybody if you can hear Dave Oh There Okay Sit down if you need to go to the washroom go right now because you're not going to be able to leave Whoa Or prepare to wet your soil yourself This is like back in the old days where because now you can just pause your netflix or your movie whatever it was before It's commercials. You had to run out go to the bathroom during commercial and race back to your couch Here we go Patricia oh man, that sounds terrible Just about locked down. I think I think patrice is from australia Victoria is it? Okay, what's going on here? We're in the garage? Okay And then this is going to this is sand and this is what was this one called potty training potty training Okay, are you gonna do the okay? Oh here we're just going out of there. Okay, here it is Wow Okay Okay, I gotta put gloves on look I put the cotton Look at it It's good to hear Marybeth.  Oh good tip. I like this stuff. Yeah gojo and you put it on dry So I didn't use any water yet And it's porous In canada you can only get orange scented And uh In the states you can get cherry and lemon. What orange? Yeah That's weird. I couldn't believe it I was thinking it started a new business lemon scented industrial hang cleaner Okay, what are we doing gloves? All right, what are we doing first the uh graduands? Yeah, we're gonna go spread stuff Or that's what hand is doing there the surface under the lace is a uh is actually a resin piece on is it just is a canvas Saver is it a wooden board? canvas that was purchased and then there's a background done on it and uh Then it was I didn't even sand it so it's I think it's uh I don't know what it was Wooden paint Wood and resin wood paint resin And then we got the lace on top and they've just put a coat and it looks very Yeah, we'll see what this turns out to be Okay, so Hannah's gonna mix up more dress What are we gonna do without Hannah? I honestly do not know we have to go back to the We did last week. We're just filmed and I was behind the fence We'll figure it out. Ah, thanks. Laquisha She likes the singing well Dave, can you sing us a song? I do birds Suddenly appear Every time You are near Beautiful Uh, we are in Canada. I think someone just asked a question. We are here in Canada just outside of Toronto, but now we're away from Toronto West That's right unifies people as much as that's as much as we're distancing ourselves. It's actually unifying a lot of people too It is yeah Well, that's the thing are we so is your goal to pull it off after you're just gonna leave it on Leave it as part of your leaders. Okay, cool. I got some down doysies coming Okay, thank you John says after you spread the resin out over the lace put some alcohol ink on top and rub it around Okay Good try that. That's what we'll do. So Hannah's gonna mix with more resin Why don't we go to the garage and play with the stripping? Did we sand the lamp yet? No Did we do a lamp the lamp? What lamp did we do before two more? It's that it's not the shag. I'm getting in there so I can drop this And it's all coming together and I'll keep you updated. Yeah, cool Okay to the garage So do people say holy hannah do people say that to you at all? Have you ever heard that term holy hannah? I was just showing my age then never mind I know Isn't it no the kids are saying that's what the kids are no it definitely not it's probably all the Judges and grandpas. That's what they're saying Pyramid yes, we did demold the pyramids. Where did it? Oh, did we bring it to the shop? Sorry, we keep forgetting to bring it back in I wonder if we what we need then is a lathe and cut right into it cut off a whole bunch See if we can Do something with it because there's good aspects to it for sure And then it was a background in a set and what we're going to do is spray paint into this wet resin with some cool different metallic spray paints So that's one this one. We're going to do some experiments with the spray things too Anything these might be a piece all on their own or just a background for something else Nice This is cool. Have you actually experimented with spray paint before besides last week? That's awesome Now this one this is sand Eventually it's fun to not have a plan and just make art I was thinking the other day about how much It sucks to have to be in meetings all the time like how many of you are in meetings all the time And you and like we're not all meant to be meeting. We need to be like making stuff like sanding stuff And moving stuff around like that's our work But we're sitting in meetings So from now on no more meetings. No more meetings Well, let's have a meeting. Yeah, let's probably sit down discuss that in a meeting Maybe a zoom chat I hope this is fun to watch for you guys because I say this every week I know Wednesday's coming and At least for me in my brain. I say, okay. Like what am I gonna do? I gotta do something And that's this is really the only time that I seem to have to just Play around. Yeah, so it's an outlet. So I really appreciate People interacting with me Well, we do this So let me ask you so your style. Do you prefer kind of just to go at it? Or do you actually like Pre-planning and having a whole big Idea for a painting or anything or do you like the experimentation? Yeah, okay, so that's all spread out No, I love if you could plan something and you know a big vision to complete a project, you know But then these ones like no, we're totally just uh What's the word that they say holy hannah? Holy We're totally doing a holy hannah. Yeah, there it is Okay, so I'm just gonna torch these quick and then we're gonna spray paint them And as I'm sure most of you know you torch to get rid of the bubbles that are on the surface Brings it to the nice glass shine It's best Janine actually when you do use a spreader as to when you're done Using the resin right away. You can wipe them down with paper towel and an alcohol If you do leave it, it is harder to peel it off We have some metallics nice This is a metallic silver This Is a pearl mist This Is mirror effect So I'm gonna see if you can make a mirror get out. Oh, wow So what maybe I'm trying. Yeah, this or at least half of it or something here. Yeah Zeke is asking how you make bubbles Zeke we have so many that we want to get rid of bubbles If you want to make bubbles you have a react with something The bubbles that are created There's something that's not completely dry That creates a reaction right bubbles are organic Yeah, organic stuff. Are you just blowing with a straw maybe Okay, the middle Donna wants the middle to be the mirror Yes, or no, maybe I don't know sure maybe she meant either the middle of it or whatever The potty one. I thought you were loving it. You were loving it before Okay, let's figure it. Okay. This is going to be a cool background. Anyone Donna says just do it up. She's excited So and by the way guys, I think oh Did I get you uh, did I did you get yourself? No? Oh, man So Hey, there's a good example. Did that just fly in there? Yeah, and look and look it's self-leveling.  Okay. He's spraying pearl in there And sorry if I don't get to everybody's comments or even the compliments I I don't always read all those just because they're very nice and thank you guys so so much Um, I try to read what we can't but I can and uh And try and answer questions and stuff All right, so we're just gonna see what this does what you got going on there Okay mirror here we go, I mean the full coat of mirror spray paint on this imagine if I just make some mirror I think that's the goal. That would be amazing Mirror mirror on the resin Okay, here we go Are you ready? I was born ready. Can we do some Music uh There's a gong What's it called when you spin it around Uh record player this thing Oh, yeah centrifuge centrifuge we got to play with the center Donna's giving us a drum roll ready here he goes Oh Here it comes Mirror mirror on the board Will it work? Don't get bored Just trying to find a rhyme there Is that going to sink into the resin or stay on the surface? Oh, okay Make it that middle part. Yeah Hold the camera close and just watch how it's moving around Look at this everybody. Whoa It's look I just like making. Oh, okay. That is I think it's alive or something Oh, yeah I know the shift can shift Dave is the fairest in the land All right, what's with this one? Wow, there's some cool texture going on here. That's for sure Yeah, I don't know if everybody can you guys get that at home? So what to make this cool? So this is on wet resin so it's not cured resin wet resin And he's left so you can see I'll see if I can show the The depth so you can see the kind of gradient that's forming where Dave didn't resin This paint is strong. Oh, yeah, let's just get this done. Oh, man Make sure you're in a well ventilated area. I'm working with spray paint.  We should be wearing masks See what the torch does to it. I don't know if I want to torch it now Do you torch paint? That's actually looking quite nice Kind of like uh So Okay, this is uh I know this is dude. This is really if everybody's watching this. So this is Just wow, this is really turning out nice the resin Is that silver metallic Dave someone's asking that you're putting on that's no the one that you got right now I think it's metallic silver and this is just what is that Dave pearl or pearl mist Pearl mist So Me oh, that's the mirror effect And I think metallic Okay, yeah, let's get out. Yeah, we're gonna go but that is looking really cool The blue is that's kind of a win right now. We'll see how it turns out Oh, Dave's doing a little I'm gonna step out into just to show the safety that we got to be more outside Or away from the fumes First aid sticker amazon.com Boom There's our little art resin stickers Hearts love. Oh, no, this is the right mask. Yeah, get her on. I'll stay back here So he's putting dark blue on there now. Hopefully you guys can still hear us. I'm not sure if our Wi-Fi or whatnot goes out here. Oh, that's Really looking good That's a nice blue man that one Can you guys can you guys all see kind of make out that color like look at that gradient that is really good Okay, so again wet resin And uh, there was already a the faded blue was already on there Then we put the wet resin on there and now we've got spray paint Spray painted white so as a pearl white at the top and now another different color blue and Dave's got this fading Oh, man Yeah, I don't I wouldn't do anything else looks a great. Let's see what happens This has got a lot of movement. There's got a lot of movement going on here And there you go. So we'll come back and visit. This is something that we'll definitely come back next week and What are we gonna? Maybe uh, maybe I should ask we should post some pictures and see if people want to Recommend some art ideas or are you just gonna go with it? There you go. There's your torch by patricia Cool That looks awesome. Let's go That is really cool man, I actually am thoroughly impressed with that one Dude that is really good on some birds there Really good. So this is gorgeous Really nice. Okay inside We just inhaled so many fumes. Wow Don't do that at home. Don't do that at home. So there's more resin is there our three texture painting tests test number one Is just pour it right on top and let it just take the shape of the painting Test number two. We did that and then we sanded it. You see some white It's still kind of looks cool. Then pour it over and then hopefully A lot of crispy won't have any texture and then number three is just buff, but don't sand To give to give the second coat some grit and then just make it a smoother coat than two coats.  I feel like this has been a productive calm organized youtube video Anyone else feel the same way? We'll put a pull-up Texture answer Yeah Season of the witch is getting killed because you're just dumping it on there No, she's been here many times She he sorry, but uh It is that is dave style. Well, we just go we just go at it and Okay, look at this. Yes, still will be like that Club tan looks really good. Actually the color came out more. Oh, yeah I mean resin doesn't make you saturated a bit. Yeah, so you could sell this for maybe 35 bucks Maybe 50 bucks And it's uh the people like going to our shows with taking something so you have really expensive pieces But you have an affordable little suckers, you know Well, you know, you go to an art show you pay 25 bucks.  Oh, yeah, but yeah, that's supposed to recommendation. Maybe not everywhere. Maybe Areas or a certain area Be cool to see some different effects if we can How's it feel? The texture. What do you think Hannah? Yeah, yeah Hey, welcome ceo and wife from season of the witch there's ceo and his wife is the assistant Oh, yeah, nice I don't know. Well, we were asking who season of the witches season of the season which entertainment Was that what it was and she's the wife of the season of the witch. I don't know Is it Season of the dog, yeah What are the animals on the chinese calendar? Isn't that like Year of the whatever Thank you for joining us season of the witch I don't know. Who are you? Who are you show yourself reveal yourself? Hannah wants to know No, what's that? No way I did not this is sorry this was when The 90s also like when first you were getting like messaging or texting Oh, wow That won't last that crazy thing. Let me just go back to my encyclopedia Britannica here No, let's try it. Oh days mic is not good. Sorry Maybe if it was hanging off you maybe when you were Oh, yeah, when is that gonna be a fit this has been like weeks now. We're waiting on some part Get some colors of the rainbow Uh, let's see. Well, you can do it.  Oh, we're doing it like that. Whoa Oh, do we ever Dale do we ever got to organize that drawer Oh, zero for two. Wow There we go. Oh, there it is So that is Blue and magenta, I think is that magenta or pink neon pink Yeah, it's written separate starting to get some uh Not days tilting it. We're doing tilt. Hang on. Oh, it's sliding Wow, it like slid is like a full bar But yeah, we're getting some separation some uh I'm calling. Oh, whoa. Whoa See that's called a happy accident a beautiful oops Uh, it doesn't matter So I don't know why we're doing this but someone said put Hey, Brookey Put some uh alcohol on top of it. I have to put a lace on it. So that's what I'm gonna do Is Some metallic dripping resin It looks like a EKG is that what they call it? Yeah Chrome virus what? Chart Hey, this is actually I'm liking what you're doing right now. So yeah, so everything is now kind of sliding down Dude, this is actually kind of cool. We're gonna prop it up. He's gonna let it slide down a bit more See what happens Hmm Can you draw? Yeah Why don't you do something on one of these like do one of your marker pens or something or marker on one of these backgrounds? It'll be amazing Yes, of course So is this a converted house? No, it is a Uh, what are these places called? It's a split thing. So it's a commercial and upstairs is considered residential Yep Awkward Just kidding. I love the colorful one on the ground. Yes, which one's that? Oh this one. Yeah, I know we actually have We actually have a buyer already someone has already Supposedly claimed that whatever it is They're gonna buy it whenever we're ready But uh, this has just been this is probably what Hannah's six weeks in the making now seven six Did we start it before you got here? Yeah, no way Okay, then this is like eight weeks to ten weeks in the making. Wow Okay, what else? We got oh, we got oh, we got a resin something too. Okay What about any molds do we have any molds? Yeah Hmm. Oh, would you get some new ones? Oh, where'd you get those? How do I? Those are huge. Those are great. Yeah Nice Are you good for casting resins? I mean you have to say like that's pretty good How hilarious How much do y'all mix at a time resin wise? Oh, we mix however much is needed. I guess say hey, I make something and then she's like A gingerbread house mold sure all right gingerbread house made of resin What don't we get out Once again, we need to go through these drawers we should not be the showing people We blame you Hannah. Are we done? Well, we can do the resin afterwards. Do you want to yeah? Wow, okay. Look at this is working out everybody. This is kind of cool It's almost like a cityscape And then it's like a water of dude. There's something really good here No, don't pour more resin on it guys No, Dave. There's something good happening here and you're gonna just pour resin on it Check it. Oh, this is this. This is my nightmare literally right on top of everything I appreciate I feel the love I really do All right. Well, goodbye cityscape Thanks for watching everyone learned something. Thanks for all your tips and suggestions in the comments Thank you Hannah for joining us and being a great assistant You'll be missed And I hope everyone's doing well and next Wednesday at 1 o'clock we'll do more stuff like this. So Take care of yourself. Talk to you later


You are listening to Make Change Happen, the podcast from the International Institute for Environment and Development. This episode brings together some established IID friends and family to acknowledge our 50 year anniversary, to explore the key sustainable development movements our guests and IID have been part of, and to look at what's next for these movements in terms of challenge and opportunity and how IID can respond. Hello and a very warm welcome to IID's Make Change Happen. Today we'll be exploring Connecting for Common Goals, 50 years of IID and Sustainable Development. I'm your host, Liz Carlile, and I'm absolutely delighted to welcome to our conversation today three people who I have worked with for many years and who I believe have been absolutely pivotal in helping drive the change that IID's staff, colleagues, partners and wider stakeholders have all been striving for. And without further ado, I'm actually going to ask them to introduce themselves straight away. Perhaps we could start with you, Camilla. Yes, good morning. My name's Camilla Thulman. I've spent 28 years at IID laterally as its director. I'm now partly at Lancaster University, but also a new organisation called the Africa Europe Foundation based in Brussels. That's brilliant. Thanks, Camilla. Very warm welcome to you. Salim. Hi everybody and good morning. I'm Salim Ohak. I'm currently the director of the International Centre for Climate Change and Development at the Independent University Bangladesh in Dhaka Bangladesh. I also have a long experience with IID from around 2000. I headed the climate change programme at IID for many years and I'm still very closely associated. So very glad to be here. And we're really glad to have you, Salim. Welcome. Steve. Hi, I'm Steve Bass. I've just realised I've been 40 years working in sustainable development, not quite 50. And I've been associated with IID for 30 years. And I'm right now an associate of IID, although I have an independent position. That's brilliant. And it's great to have you with us today. And I hope our podcast listeners will realise that you've been kind of chosen specially because you have had this long history, not only with IID, but in the kind of sustainable development movement. And this podcast kind of rounds off our kind of 50 years thinking about what we've been doing, what we've been doing in the past and what we should be doing in the future. And I suppose IID was created 50 years ago at a time when the idea of sustainable development and for us particularly that linking of environment and development together, this was new. You know, but since then we've seen ideas and approaches and the politics of the sustainable development sector really grow and change. And I think we've seen this sort of rise of different and distinct movements. And Steve, you know, when we were talking about what could we do for our birthday, we asked you to think about this question around, you know, what movements were there? We've understood a lot about climate justice. And Salim you all talked to that. We've talked about local agency over natural resources. And Steve and Camilla, you've both been very much a part of those discussions, but there's been lots of different movements. So Steve, you wrote something for us and that can now be found on the IID website, Connecting for Common Goals, 50 Years of IID and Sustainable Development. How did you find this? You know, what influenced you when you were thinking about whether these were movements, whether they were key moments? What was the kind of thing that you noticed in this work? Yeah, well, this was an exciting bit of work to do.  You know, this was never going to be about moments in time. It's going to be about wide movements over time. It's inspired by sustainable development. I mean, it's not it's not as if once we agreed the idea of sustainable development in Stockholm in 72, there was ever going to be a sort of single grand sustainable development plan with organised implementation and neat sort of milestone dates. So discussing with you and IID colleagues, we we identified that there are these probably about 10 movements that in practice are pushing sustainable development forward and we found different groups of people from different places and disciplines coming together, bringing their energies together and innovating to achieve an aspect of sustainable development that they can do something about improved participation, sustainability science, local control of resources. These are the kinds of movements, energised movements that have sort of like decade and longer lengths. This is a kind of generational change. And we I think we've identified about 10. It's a bit arbitrary and they're not separate. The point is they're linked. They inform each other, they evolve and a new new movements emerge and combined it's these movements that have formed this sort of flood of innovation and commitment. It's these movements that have led to what we've seen of sustainable development now. I mean, one thing I think colleagues were clear of was that these movements come from sort of different types of power. So we've got this the kind of core movement about developing a series of, you know, these intergovernmental agreements on sustainable development, climate change that uses the UN's convening power and government policy power and that movement kicked off and it's sort of been enriched by the planetary science movement, which draws on the power of scientific knowledge. But I think the movements that IED's most been helped to kick off really all these movements around local agency, the movement around local control of forests and drylands, the movement around grassroot civilisation developed through the power of local knowledge and legitimacy, but we helped that by bringing convening power and creating that solidarity. I could talk more about IED's role in these things, but it's these movements over time that in a sense have made sustainable development real. And I think it's kind of built, isn't it, on I think in all of this work, yours Steve, Salim's, mine and many others, it's kind of built on a fundamental belief and confidence in the strength and wisdom of people on the ground. It's drawing from that. It's recognising that there's tremendous knowledge, capacity and ability to do things at that community level. That's not to say that people know everything. Very often there's a good kind of mix of local knowledge and outside expertise that can help make things work better. But I think it's a fundamental belief that local people's knowledge, understanding and wisdom and capacity is a very good starting place. As you have shown, Camilla, in this solidarity with drylands people, as Salim has shown, solidarity with the least developed countries, the vulnerable on climate change, I think this is, as you say, this is IED's role, connecting those local people to the global policy, connecting environment to development, connecting people to science, to policy. But I think it's also based on the fact that we recognise that there is, as you said earlier, a big power dimension to this and that there happens to be a sort of unequal struggle between forces of government, aid agencies, big companies, modernisation, however you want to describe it, and the kind of power that grassroots groups can exercise on the ground. And I think our role has been wherever possible to try and rebalance that power inequality, whether in terms of rights, whether in terms of capacities to mobilise, but also in terms of voice and recognition. So one of the things I want to do, perhaps bring Salim in here, was to think, you know, these, what we've called kind of movements, if you like, the collections of people working towards a particular issue. And I know when I started at IED, which was, I think when IED was about five years old, was my first time at IED, we spent a lot of time defining things, defining what is desertification, defining what is forestry, defining what is climate change. People were not at the time where something, we'd got the evidence, we hadn't got, this is a mainstream issue. And Salim, I was thinking, you know, you brought climate change, I think, to IED, if I remember rightly, where you were really trying to swell that movement, to build that evidence, to bring that together and to really show the things that Steve and Camilla have just been talking about. What's been your reflection on that? Absolutely right Liz. In fact, my framing of the conversation we've just had with Steve and Camilla is that it's an imbalance between what I call the top down global conferences, UN conferences, national policies, and the bottom up, which is where IED has a special, I think, capability that's been built over years of bringing those local voices and giving them space in these both national level discussions, which are very important as well as the global level discussions. And my entry into IED around 2000, 2001, was to bring that climate change adaptation dimension. At that time, climate change was very much about greenhouse gas emissions, reducing emissions, which we call mitigation, which is all absolutely needed. But what we were not at that point in time realizing is that climate impacts are going to happen, they're going to happen on the poorest people on the planet who are absolutely unprepared, and in fact, who didn't contribute to the problem. So there's a major injustice involved in the climate problem, where rich people cause the problem, but poor people suffer for it. And that climate injustice is something that I've been working on for the last two decades, and IED has been very much part of as well. So to all of you, what's been, what have been pivotal moments where you've thought, okay, we're making progress? What have been the sort of milestones? I mean, for many of us in communications, for example, we see these external moments that we respond to, kind of UN meetings, places and times where people come together and share the ideas they've been working on. But for you working around these power dynamics, for you thinking about this, forgetting the top-down approaches and the global injustices, where have you seen the real moments where you've thought, yes, we're on the right track, or yes, something is happening? Well, let me come in on that one, on the climate change arena. There were two pivotal agreements. Firstly, the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change in the first place, 1992. But then in Paris in 2015, we had a big, big achievement at the 21st Conference of Parties of the UN Framework Convention, where we agreed the Paris Agreement. That was a breakthrough of global negotiation, global agreements to keep temperature below 1.5 degrees and for the rich countries to provide $100 billion a year to the developing countries. We are still not on track to deliver that, but at least we have an agreement to do that, and every year we come together at a Conference of Parties and contract process. But at the same time, from the bottom up, I've been working and IID has been working and continues to work with the group of most vulnerable developing countries, called the least developed countries, there are 48 of them, and they are mostly in sub-Saharan Africa, but also in Asia and during my country Bangladesh, where we've been engaging at the national level, particularly with research institutes and universities, building knowledge and capacity to actually tackle the problems on the ground, because that's where it really matters. Global agreements are good, but if they don't deliver anything, then they're not that useful. So getting things done on the ground has been a major part of what I used to do at IID and what I now continue to do in my centre in Bangladesh and continue to collaborate with IID on, and this is a movement. It is a genuine movement of bottom up local level adaptation actors from the most vulnerable countries. No, that's great. I mean we can see that it is a movement, even though it still has its challenges. Camilla, Steve, what have been the sort of moments in your sort of sectors where you've thought, okay, something has happened here? Yeah, well I suppose when we started the drylands programme back in the late 80s, essentially we were seizing an opportunity to reframe the debate around drylands from a perception of desertification that was going to sweep all before it to one in which you could actually point to a whole series of very promising usually locally led initiatives that were actually improving landscapes, increasing crop yields, generating better livelihoods for people across the Sahel. So I mean that's from a long time ago, I think today you can find particular places where you've got champions in government for the sorts of approaches that we've been working on. So for example in Senegal, Mali, Kenya and Tanzania, the approaches that we've been piloting of locally led, locally delivered climate finance, putting money where it matters have now been taken up by governments in each of those countries who want to make it their way of delivering climate adaptation and resilience building to people on the ground and that's that's a wonderful feeling that you know something that had promise is now being spread and recognised very much more broadly. That's exciting isn't it because so much of this is a kind of relentless repetition of what's needed, it's great to see those moments. Steve what about you? Well let's look at another area, I think in the area of business there have been lots of moments and IOD has been connected to several of them. The whole trend in the last well 50 years of business moving from completely denying negative impacts on local people and environments through to recognising those impacts and trying to clean up, through to what we have now which is recognising a dependence on local communities, on the natural capital and there have been some key moments. I think I mean IAD has really helped here, we ran a global study on the paper industry and this was occasioned by a Brazilian producer saying you know what's better paper made from well managed forests, virgin fibre or recycled have a look for us and that process led to a you know an acceptance of the need for forest standards that suit local groups that suit different country contacts the idea of certification became a norm and it set up a whole dialogue process that continues today and under the guys the forests dialogue that's run by Yale University and then and then we took those lessons and brought them to the mining industry which was really helpful because because it was from forestry it wasn't immediately threatening to the mining industry but the same process went ahead with mining minerals and sustainable development leading to an organisation and a set of standards this is by no means yet mainstream but there is at least a mainstream expectation that businesses will value the social the natural capital they will think about their dependence upon it but it's so it's scattered it's not yet universal but the one other thing i the one other moment that i think will help business and everyone else is the moment when we agree the sustainable development goals which is now a universal set of goals it's not just about the north south bargain it's not just about the aid program that we had before it's about everyone running their countries running their businesses running their local societies around the principles of sustainable development so so we have this this single agreement i think is quite a milestone does anyone else want to comment on that kind of you know the universality of the sggs yeah well um i agree with steve that it was a pretty amazing milestone i think the worry is that it somehow loses a sense of focus because of the extraordinary breadth um and so how they're then picked up by particular governments and translated into a set of things that make sense for them i think that's where the challenge lies i noticed that um our government and european governments for instance refer very little to the sdgs in terms of their own pathway for development climate the climate goals are there but um broader goals around health education um building a global partnership i find um much less evident so i think we've still got a bit of a tendency to think of these as being uh something that's for countries uh in other parts of the world rather than for our own countries and societies and i think that's an area that we need to really start to push in more salim what's the sort of the icad take or how how are the sdgs perceived in Bangladesh where you are they are a useful mechanism they are very much indeed because um the sdgs were actually preceded a decade before a decade and a half before by the mdgs the millennium development goals uh which uh were purely development they didn't include environment in them but Bangladesh was one of the few least developed countries that actually took the mdgs very seriously and was very largely successful in meeting most of them not exactly everything but we were very proud to have done well on the mdgs and have hence we got very much involved as a country both the government and the people in shaping the sdgs uh making sure that the sdgs were more comprehensive comprehensive and comprehensible uh and making sure that environment and social issues got more uh uh prominence in the sdgs and since the sdgs have been adopted Bangladesh is one of the countries that has made uh fulfilling sdgs a uh national objective every ministry as well as civil society organization has identified the sdgs with which they are most uh closely associated and always more than one not focusing on just one to Kamila's point um that we need to connect things to each other and uh as i work on sdg 13 on climate climate connects with almost all the other sdgs in a very significant way and so we have movements of each individual sdg uh bringing together people from government and non-governmental sectors but at the same time across all the sdgs and it's a very very useful organizing principle of a whole of society approach to development in general of the country of Bangladesh and something other countries might want to learn from as well that's really interesting to hear because i had one question that i i wanted to ask you all it's kind of something that's that i've been thinking about is that to what extent do these kind of movements the different movements the different areas that people work into what extent are they in competition with each other rather than as you're saying Selim something that invites a connection between the different way people think and the things they have to do and Kamila you just pointed this just now you know it's terrific to have a broad global vision but you know when it comes to the different ministries the different departments the different people who are working on the ground to achieve change you know they can't work with breadth they have to work with specificity so how does this how does this movement idea either compete or reinforce each other i'd love to know what you think about that have we wasted time through competition or is this getting us aligned and in the same place well i think there's always going to be competition between movements and between the particularly between the institutions that kind of firmly plant their flag in a particular movement because in a very crowded world where you're competing for attention and resources you need to make sure that your particular organization and structure is is going to survive and and thrive within that space i think that's inevitable but i think it's also true that as long as you've got people who recognize the kind of higher purpose in the fact that you've got a shared a shared long-term common interest you can find ways in which to build partnerships together recognizing that the problems are so big that people really do need to work together and you can achieve far more if you if you collaborate i i'd agree with Kim 11 but i'd emphasize that you know there is healthy competition is helpful as a way to innovate one of the issues of sustainable development is it's you know we can be so paralyzed by it's complexity that we need people to enter it with the kind of different angles different technologies and i'd encourage this and it's helped things like participatory movements and local control over forests and drylands to come up as more efficient and effective and cost effective ways of of providing both livelihoods and and environment so there's the the innovation side is helpful what i think is not helpful is the kind of those with funds change their whip change their whim all the time it's the kind of what i call fashion and fat wars some of the funding agencies will drop the ball and then move to a new fashion next year but the the the thing about these movements is that they're over decades they're over generations and they need continuous support what i'd hate to think of is that we've had what we call 10 movements in 50 years and we'd we now drop them and and invent some new ones no they need continuous and helpful and knowledgeable support and this again is i think a great iid role being able to expose them being able to make them offering platforms of them to link to to keep them alive in different ways and to show mutual respect i mean the the the whole intergovernmental process movements have got richer because of the work that businesses have done the work that communities have done the work the scientists have done and they as Camilla says they need to keep coming together enriching one another braiding together and Camilla you may not have remembered but i think in what you know when we were discussing this podcast the four of us you said something about the importance of saying saying the same things to new audiences and that finding traction as the world becomes ready and that you saw these movements as kind of rivers that diverge and loop i mean i thought that was a really nice way of of sort of showing how the ebb and flow of ideas does need to sort of come together and and move apart and come together again yeah and and capture the attention of new and different audiences steve has raised that in relation to the private sector i mean i remember back in the 70s and 80s you know if you talk to somebody in business as an NGO person you were considered really have to have strayed in issues subbing with the devil and i think that kind of being brave and starting conversations with people who are outside your comfort zone is absolutely critical i think for us now we need to be thinking about you know next generation here we are we're all in our in our 60s with gray hair and thinking about how you support the next generation and the generation below that see their role in this field is is vital and they're going to see it in in a different way and as steve says probably in a much more innovative and possibly in a way that shakes things up so that we aren't necessarily comfortable but it'll be the new way of addressing sustainable development issues and given a changing context if i can jump in on that yes salim i was just going to ask you because you're also your close connection to the least developed country group have been shaking things up for a long time it will be good to hear your thoughts sure so i wanted to pick up on camilla's point about the next generation you know one of the transitions that i made from leaving iid and setting up my center in bangladesh is to be with the university where i now have students and i teach and the next generation to me is really where my hope lies in terms of taking all of the ideas we've been working on for the last 50 years and shaping them a much more effectively than we have done we've done good stuff but we haven't done enough and we need to be doing a lot more a lot faster collectively and i'd say two major possibilities that have become clear now that were less clear before firstly the new generation of young people all over the world are very very attuned very very connected and really do think of themselves as global citizens as much as they are citizens of their countries or even of their cities and communities and secondly the technology now allows us to work together in in common purpose you know the the the covid-19 pandemic forced us to go online but it's had a co-benefit of the whole world is now connected online with each other and and quite effectively and i can tell you school children the school children's movement the Fridays for future that was you know inspired by Greta Thunberg from Sweden that's a very very effective global movement of young kids every Friday they just do something innovative and they come out and do stuff and they work together and that to me is a very very inspiring global movement in fact much more inspiring than the UN UN meetings of governments who talk but don't do anything that's so good to hear you say that Celine because i think we the we of the world you know certain messages that we get are about some of the dooms and glooms of technology but actually the opportunities if we use these right can be immense and and i want to come back to that in a moment when i ask you our last question but what i would like before we do that i just want to focus in on what i think has been really important as iid space in this collective movement which has been this link between environment and development and all over the years that i've worked with all of you i've seen you bring those two spaces together i've seen us in iid bring those spaces together and our partners bring those spaces together but so many people have not made that link how is that for you now how are you feeling about the the strength of that connection the alignment of those schools of thought well to my mind we continue to see them being pushed often very separately and often in competition to each other for instance if i look at my own country where i am today in scotland people are incredibly keen on covering the landscape with trees they really want an awful lot of big tree planting because they think that's the solution to climate change sequestration of carbon but very often it's done in a way and pushed in a fashion that has no bearing on how that land was used before on the interests and livelihoods of local communities around and very often it's also rather counterproductive by digging holes in peat in order to plant conifers so i fear that with many of these issues we continue to struggle to try and make those connections yeah i just just to elaborate it's interesting isn't it iid hasn't changed its name for 50 years it's still the institute for environment and development because the world is still organized in silos so i i think in a small way over the years iid has has run a sort of meta movement embracing environment development watching what's going on in each field pointing out you know checks and balances or the discussion on carbon yes but hang on a minute any old carbon will do what about biodiversity what about the the people who live on the land so we have been able to watch these things and provide a bridge and a platform but i do think in future we need to get to grips with the challenge of really rewiring institutions for sustainable development institutional structures at country and business level that are truly integrated every single international agreement on sustainable development calls for an integrated approach but it's not yet embedded in the institutions i think we have a role here iid is always supported sort of really authentic accountable local institutions and maybe there's more we can do here to to up our game towards the the whole kind of institutional structure selene what's your thinking here i think you know there are three levels at which we have been conceptualizing and operating at these global movements the global level primarily under the united nations different in conventions on different environmental issues like biodiversity and climate change and desertification at the national level where national governments have to think about putting into practice all these things that they agree at the global level but then they have to convey to the national level and actually implement where the contradictions and the trade-offs become apparent and unfortunately the economic weight of every argument the short-term economic gain prevails over long-term economic gain and then there's a third and in my view most important level which is at the very local level and primarily for the poorest most vulnerable citizens in every country and unfortunately that particular grouping wherever it is even in a rich country poor and vulnerable people are the ones who get short shrift if you look at the impacts of climate change or even look at the impacts of COVID-19 in rich countries the people who died were poor people the people who not rich people and so that is a universal phenomena where every country the governance system no matter how democratic it might claim to be does not favor the the most vulnerable and the poorest people and in a sense you know I would say the meta argument that we have been doing at least from my perspective has been a justice argument it is an injustice argument that rich people cause problems that make poor people suffer and that's not right and we need to rectify it now we don't do it through revolution we do it through science and argument and evidence gathering but that to me has been my driving force in in being part of this journey and movement with IID and my many colleagues like Steve and Camilla and all our other colleagues I think that's something we all share I think you're absolutely right and it was really good to hear you use the justice injustice words for me they're absolutely critical this has been a really interesting discussion and we've been inevitably looking back over the 50 years because that's what we were thinking about you know what were these movements like were we connecting around common goals but I want us as our last sort of point of conversation here to be looking forward and I want us to think about some of the opportunities that you've mentioned you know we as the older generation need to perhaps still bring our wisdom and experience but we need to fade into a new future something that will be driven much harder by younger audiences by the youth of today we mustn't forget the importance of gender that drives a lot of our thinking we mustn't forget and we want to drive a much more nuanced discussion around structural racism and diversity and we have the opportunity of technology you know this should provide us with a platform for enormous change going forward so I always close this podcast with a question to my co-conversationalists and that is what is the change that you want to see looking forward into this what we think will be a rich and dynamic future Selim what's the change you want to see what's got to happen what are a couple of things that got to happen for this to make well I'll share with you what I tell young people all over the world wherever I meet them including in my country in Bangladesh I tell them that the time has come now and and this is a very recent phenomena where every individual young person needs to think of herself or himself as first a global citizen of planet earth and only second as a citizen of your respective country or your respective community or city if you live in a city and being a global citizen has both empowerment functions as well as responsibilities the problems that your generation will face are global problems they're not necessarily only national problems and you have to think as a global citizen with fellow citizens from around the world to solve those problems in a bottom up individually inspired manner you have to be the ones to make those changes don't expect them from your leaders that's brilliant thank you Selim Camilla how about you well recognizing how we are all the product of our own personal experience and history I think there are two things one is to provide an opportunity for younger colleagues to spend serious time in societies that are different from our own so that they can gain the perspective which you only get from having time somewhere very very different I think that's one thing and the second is to very much look at our own societies in ways which allow us to recognize the commonality of purpose that Selim has mentioned in terms of global challenges but seeing where we can learn lessons and share expertise as we're trying to do for instance with the Africa Europe Foundation on learning lessons about adaptation to climate change where very often we need to be looking to countries like Bangladesh or countries in Africa so that we can better design resilience in our own countries thank you so Steve last but by no means least what's the thing that has to change for you or continue perhaps well I hope I'm still young enough to take Selim's and Kamila's good advice as I agree with it I think the big change is that we need to shift from sort of pushing sustainable development from the margins to supporting societal demand I mean things don't really change just by sort of top-down policy and programs they change because people want them so we've seen that sustainable development is being achieved through movements but I think we need to do more to find movements that are happening in other areas so the social movements the youth movements and start with their energy rather than just our evidence as we've been doing with IAD and that is about feeding it with the right information and realising and helping the agency of those social movements so we move from a kind of supply bush to a demand pool approach and I do think that demand is demand for all sorts of mixed things Kamila used the word resilience you know as we move forward we've really got to get to grips with today's really unstable context you know with debt distress and inequality and sort of undermine multilateralism so where there's demand for resilience there's demand for restoration helping that with good sustainable development ideas but you know I wouldn't want to I wouldn't want to ignore these 10 movements that are hard one they explain much of the impact the progress today and they haven't ended they're a great 50-year legacy so we need to continue to invest long-term in them and in their interaction it's been an interesting conversation I've enjoyed it thank you no thank you and thank you all and I think that was a good reminder to end on you know that the war is not yet won and the movements are still there and they're thriving and they're going to be going into a future and Salim I loved your statement you know to push for being a global citizen of planet earth and that for me still seems a really strong inspiration and a vision thank you all so much for our conversation today it's been really good and listeners if you've enjoyed this please do tell friends and colleagues to take a listen too and as always you can find further information on www.ieed.org thank you very much and goodbye and you can find out more about today's podcast our guests and their work at www.ieed.org slash podcast where you can also listen to more episodes you can leave us feedback or follow the podcast at soundcloud.com slash the iied the podcast is produced and recorded by our in-house communication team for more information about iied and our work please visit us online at www.ieed.org


Most of that, this paper needs two people to present. So we have Ali, who is a first year PhD student, and we have Jerry, who is a master student. And they're going to tell us about how to handle uncertainty in compile time. Good afternoon. We are here today. You have to turn it on. Good afternoon. We are here today to convince you to embrace uncertainty in mobile app programming. You might be wondering why two people are presenting one paper. That's because our advisor was uncertain about who should present it, so he's like, OK, both were presented. So, Jerry, you are a mobile app developer, so what are you currently implementing? OK, what I'm planning to do right now is to create a game that is pretty graphically intensive and deploy it on the app store so that, you know, make some bugs around the way. So have you considered the energy consumption you would gain?  Yeah, you're right. Yes, so I'm just planning to, you know, throw in a bunch of FL statements, and, yeah, should handle it fine. So let's speak about this statement. So are you going to have one threshold for all users? Currently thinking of setting the threshold to the 10% battery level, but I'm just not sure. So this is threshold. I mean, it could be very low for a set of people, right? Maybe, for example, for me, low battery means 30%, but for you, it would mean 10%. So how are you going to be sure of it? Yeah, I don't know how I handle it using my balance. So what about the branches? Do you even know if these branches work? Yeah, if the condition isn't right, then I wouldn't know. OK, let's assume that it works. How will it work? I'm lost. I just don't have an answer. My answer to vary is embrace uncertainty. So today, programming languages enforce programmers to be certain about each and every line of their code. So let's take an example. For example, if else a statement. The programmer has to be certain about the condition of a statement. And also for the branches, each branch will not be executed unless the condition will be true. So what we are proposing is maybe statement. So as you can see, maybe has no condition. And each branch is dealt with as an alternative that could be selected by the app whenever it sees that this is the best alternative available at the current time. Maybe statement can be represented in a various ways. For example, multiple blocks that have different alternatives. Each block has one alternative. And there is a label that helps the system to identify the statement and the code. It also can be used with variable assignments. For example, here we have string performance that could take one of these three values, low, medium, and high. And also maybe presents a new feature that is very inshore cut for integers. For example, I don't need to enumerate each and every number with an orange. I just write 1 to 16. So maybe statement can be used or used by programmers to express uncertainty. And maybe system uses testing and learning to convert that uncertainty to runtime certainty. So as a result, our major goal in this system is to know the best alternative at runtime. All right, so let's get to the magic behind the scenes here. So we have a piece of code here that is written in this way. So the presenter has Ali or the presenter could be Jerry. So the old people prefer Ali to present to them. Whereas the young people prefer Jerry, that's we need to present to them. So how does the app know about all of these things? Well, we'll come to that later. But this is a form of static adaptation in which one option is chosen and, yep, that remains steady for a long period of time. Similarly, from India, Ali is chosen to give a presentation from Kuwait, Jerry is chosen. And coming to dynamic adaptations, what if an app wants to behave differently during times in which it's not actually used much during the night. And it wants to behave differently during the day time. So all these are temporal adaptations, examples of temporal adaptations and network-based adaptations as well. For example, Ali prefers to use cellular data, whereas I prefer to use Wi-Fi. So how it works is like this. The maybe system has adaptation algorithms embedded into itself and this adaptation algorithm chooses which block to execute. So I'll talk about the adaptation algorithm later. But this, suppose if the app developer doesn't want to be, he doesn't want to give this form of control to the system itself, he or she could, you know, just over like this methodology. So our advisor, so he could control like, okay, Ali should give it the talk or Jerry should give it the talk. But as of now, he's confused and he's sitting in the back there. Okay, you guys handle it. So moving on to like maybe testing. So this is how the adaptive algorithm works. Initially, the system needs to be tested and then the system needs to be adapted for the use cases. So let's talk about testing phase first. We have a bunch of users and we execute a block, maybe the maybe block or the odd block on the set of users and we calculate the scores. And these, okay. And also another block is executed on the same set of users and the scores are calculated. Now, this is where in which the testing is done and the scores are actually evaluated. And what happens is given a bunch of users again, we apply randomly which block of code should be executed on them and we compute these two scores again. So all of these scores are kept in track at the backend server. So the backend server, yeah. So the backend server applies some form of machine learning algorithm so that it could classify like for this particular set of users, this is the best alternative that could be executed. All right, so this course, talking about this course, what exactly is this course we are talking about? This course is completed based upon the performance and the energy consumption of the app. This is the standard way of actually how we go about measuring the scores but the app developer has total control over how to measure the scores as well. So he can write a service like a JSON string or something that does a total different computation of this course. These scores given to the backend, some form of analysis is done and then push back to the app again. All right, so I'll even take over. So maybe the system has a lot of use cases. For example, based on our experience in our phone lab, which is by the way large-scale smartphone platform testbed, we had implemented a phone lab data collection tool that collects blood data from participant devices. And while implementing that tool, we had a lot of questions that we needed to be certain about at development time. For example, when and how often to upload data? How often to rotate logs on the device? How much data to cache on the smartphone? We needed to be to have an answer and be sure about our answer at development time. We also had to specify an end-to-end performance metrics. So we ended up by writing hundreds of boring code. One, if we used maybe segment, we had end-to-end just like by maybe tens of, or by line or two, of course, by specifying the available alternatives without worrying about being sure which one we should really specify at development time and leave that for the runtime. So another app that we have on the participants of phone lab is called Pocket Parker. So what this app basically does is to recommend a user a very exactly a parking spot is available and one of the parking lots at the University of Buffalo. So in order to have this set of computations, right, we had to actually get the app, the geographical location information of the user, like whether the user is riding a vehicle or whether the user is, like, you know, just walking from her car back to the building or something of that sort. So, okay, this app specific information we wrote a bunch of code. And also Google produced its set of code, like library APIs, after we actually implemented this code. So what actually ended up happening is we had two alternatives, whether to use our code or whether to use the Google APIs. So how do we actually know which one is better for our needs? So we ended up putting this into the maybe or log and what we are currently, you know, testing this course, like which are written from these alternatives. And on the long run, we'll get to know, like, which alternatives are better for our needs. So, fine. So these were some of our use cases at the phone lab, but when we look into the Android framework and the kernel, there are many places in which uncertainty could be mined upon. For example, the timer rates, the timeouts as well, when should the network search be timed or when should the Wi-Fi search be timed out? Like, you know, if the app is deployed in US, like, should it be set for five minutes? And if the app is deployed in a nation country, should it search for a longer time or should it search for lesser time? Cash sizes. This is another important thing. Like, we are not so sure about cash sizes during compilation time, but during run time, it's pretty important. And other things like, you know, performance quality trade-offs and attempts at battery life adaptation as what kind of discussion we and Ali had at the very beginning of the talk. And we are also open to, like, any suggestions. Like, where do you think uncertainty needs to be measured in the content or the Android screenbooks? So we want more feedback from the audience regarding that, maybe at the end of the talk. So as of our current status with, maybe, system implementation, we are currently implementing a rewrite-based implementation for Android Java. And the maybe system consists of four core components. The first one is a preprocessor that rewrites maybe statements or converts the maybe statements into current existing conditional statements. And we also have Android service to cache values and implement adaptation algorithms. There is also a backend server to drive testing, collect data, analyze data, and broadcast data. Broadcast the selected alternate. And we also have, this is a feature, I believe we also have a web interface to allow programmers to control the process. So the programmer has the choice to select one of the alternatives at any time. So, for example, maybe at the development time, he has just, like, 10 alternatives that he wasn't sure which one to select. But at runtime, he found out that one of the alternatives, as of the current conditions, is the best alternative to work with. So he can set it manually using the web interface. So to summarize, you can say that for certainty is a problem, particularly for mobile systems. And maybe this statement and system allow programmers to express and embrace uncertainty and activate testing and machine learning techniques. So please embrace uncertainty. Thank you, and welcome any questions. Any questions? I'm not using this question. So, I'm just wondering. My name is Shiv Mishra from University of Colorado. Isn't that essentially a context-dependent programming? Essentially, at runtime, you're trying to detect the right context, and based on that, you're choosing whatever the right algorithm are. So, by context-dependent... For example, whether it's day or night, or whether you are in India or in the US, these are all contexts, right? Yep. So, the baby statement is another way to implement context-dependent? Yes, I mean, this specific logic needs to be always implemented in the app. But sometimes, what we are talking about is the conditions that could be uncertain. The conditions could vary from two to maybe 100 conditions. For example, in this particular country, at this particular location, when the network statistics is so much, then execute this algorithm. With a lot of context. Yeah, so, a bunch of if-else statements, like we have like four, five, six, like 10 if-else statements, we are eliminating the deployment logic which the app developer has to concentrate upon. We are deploying it for the server to handle it. So, yeah, it is context-dependent. Eric, you might have started to touch on what I was going to ask. Is this something that's natural, I think, for programmers to do? What happens if you have a bunch of these nested maybe statements? So, that's something that's easy to think about what will happen. Well, if the user is sure about the logic, then, okay. Sorry, if the app developer is sure about the logic, you know. So, how Chen from UC Davis, so, what is the difference between the maybe statement and either if or switch statement, but where instead of using a constant or an expression as the predicate, you call, say, get context as the predicate. So, what's the difference? So, the difference is, as we see in this slide here, hold on a second, yeah, just for that. Yep, here, the condition is given, right? If battery level is lesser than threshold. Right. But the condition that whether the battery level should be considered or some of the parameters also need to be considered for a set of alternatives to be executed. The app developer isn't too sure, like, what all conditions he or she needs to be sure during runtime, yeah, during runtime. So, essentially you have either a library or another process as the decision maker. And instead of hard coding, a logic in the predicate, you call into that component or process. It's not a library. What was that? It's not a library. Well, conceptually, there's something else is either a component or it's another process that makes the decision. So, you call into that and you get back some value and your program execution, which branch to take depends on the return from that model. So, as far as I understand, you're saying that this could be implemented as a library? No, I'm just trying to understand how to map this to the existing programming tools we have. He's asking who decides, ultimately, what the condition is. Maybe statement who decides. Okay, the server decides for us. So, the server sends a bunch of vectors back to the application, based upon the statistics that it has learned from the usage patterns of different users. Well, actually, I'm more thinking of if I really love your approach, can I just implement it using existing languages as a Java instead of using the maybe keyword? So, in Java, instead of writing this, I make a call to that decision maker. Yes, you can, but you'll have to write a bunch of anonymous classes to do that.  Why write a switch statement, can I? You can, because you're not too sure about the condition, right? Okay. All right, thank you. All right, thanks. So, I have something related to that as well. So, this thing's very similar to what we used to do in Odyssey, et cetera, where we did adaptation based on various CPU, et cetera. And the problem with those systems is the utility function turned out to be impossible to write. As in the little piece of magic that actually determined that battery is higher than this, that was so user-specific and app-specific that it was impossible to generalize. Do you all have any magic here that allows you to generalize this so they can actually provide us the service? You said maybe statements, if it's done. No, that's not what I'm saying. To do the maybe on your server, you still need a utility function, something to optimize for. And this turned out to be the place where all these adaptation systems failed miserably. I think if you get Stefan and me in the room and we talk about Maui and Chroma, you'll see this is where all of them fail miserably. When it comes to the per user, per app, utilization and utility function. So, do y'all have any thoughts on how you can handle that? I mean, this is great, but when you get user-specific requirements, it will fail miserably. That's what we found out anyway. Yeah. Well, as far as how we have thought of our prototype is to gain the statistics of users who, like, you know, a group of users who behave in a similar pattern, in a similar set of ways. So, like, very specific user implementation details, I think we'll get to know more about it only if the full system is still not. Okay.


Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Informatica World 2017, brought to you by Informatica. Welcome to exclusive CUBE coverage here in San Francisco for our exclusive coverage of Informatica World 2017. It's May Madness, a lot of events happening here on the ground, live, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. My co-host, Peter Burris, our next guest is Kim Salem-Jackson, the SVP of field marketing and business development for Informatica World. She runs the show literally for Informatica World. Welcome to theCUBE, kick off for Informatica World. Thank you, I'm thrilled to be here. So give us the quick highlights. What is the show about this year? I mean, obviously data is at the center of the value proposition, data is the new oil, data is the new goals, the new resource. What's some of the stats, what's happening? Sure, so this is our 18th annual Informatica World and as you know, John, we are 100% focused on everything data. So whether you want to talk about the mainframe, IOT or everything in between, we have it covered at the conference. And what's some of the themes here? So the disruptive power of data is really a key theme for us and it's all about digital transformation and intelligent disruption. What's different from last year? Because obviously the value proposition is getting bigger and bigger. We're hearing more about AI, machine learning. Real value proposition is in the software. Right, I mean, I think our innovations are just unbelievable. Just this morning, about 20 minutes ago, I'm at debuted Claire, which is our basically AI for data management new release. And what I think is brilliant with the name is Claire, is about clairvoyance and it has AI in the heart of it. So super exciting innovations for our clients. For the folks watching, what's the vibe here? How many attendees are here? What are some of the highlights? What's the experience like? Sure, well there's massive energy. So yesterday was our industry perspective's days. And it's when we were talking about the hottest topic. So cloud, MDM, big day. We were sold out. It was our pre-conference day. So we have over 3,000 attendees here today. And what's nice is we have from practitioners to data scientists to executives. So unbelievable lineup of different folks all focused on data. This is our second year covering you guys live, multi-day, deep dive in conversations. Last year's very clear data was going to be a disruptive force. Now you're seeing real developer action in the enterprise, real transformation with data. What are some of the highlights going on in your world? And customer successes, where's the action in terms of the true business transformation? Yeah, I mean people are using data to innovate in ways we never thought possible from superior customer experience to disrupting their business. We're talking a lot about data disruption here. And data disrupts in a positive way because really intelligence, disruption, I think if you don't drive it, it drives you. And so it's all about using intelligence of the data to innovate like we never have before. So Kim, what's the informatica is going through some consequential changes reflecting what's happening in the marketplace? So your customers, lot to learn. As you think about designing this program, what do you think the role of conferences are going to be for customers as they try to track some of these changes in the future? Yeah, I mean what we're trying to do is marry the digital world and the face-to-face world. So this is our annual marquee event. And we design the content in kind of three phases. We have kind of like when you're in college, we have the one-on-one series which is general session focused on our business folks, a lot of the high-level thought leadership messages. Then we have the 200 series which is really focused on letting folks get more hands-on round tables, discussions. Then we do the 300 series which is really the deep dives where they can dig in and really play with the content. And then we take the best of what we learn here and we take it on the road around the globe, then we package it up digitally. So this is part of an ongoing effort by Informatica to start acculturating, teaching, having customers learn more about some of these transformations in the future? Absolutely, I mean it's really learning 365 days a year. So where are these resources going to be on your, are they going to be in your site, the physical location? Yeah, they'll be, I mean they're in the app right now for folks, they'll be on our website and then we'll package it up and send it out to folks. So as we think about how this is going to play out over time, presumably also, I mean, we heard yesterday, I did attend the session yesterday, there were a number of them that were outstanding. Some really interesting things going on with AWS. So how do you anticipate that this content is going to be combined with partner content to try to really energize the ecosystem to facilitate some of these things? Yeah, everything we do, we try to do with our partners and obviously the major cloud ecosystem, so Salesforce, AWS, we're with them everywhere we go, so you'll see us speaking. A lot of thought leadership will be on the social realm. Okay, I know you're really busy, but I want to get you a quick summary of the keynotes, your thoughts and reaction to the morning keynotes and what should we expect throughout the day and tomorrow? Yeah, so the keynotes were super excited. Started with Anil, really setting the vision for the market, Informatica from data 1.0 all the way to 3.0 now, which is focused on digital transformation and disruption. Then Sally came out and what's really special about this year is we debuted and unveiled our new brand. And I think it's gorgeous, it's sleek, it's provocative, it's intelligent, and it's really focused on repositioning Informatica. I think our products have always been ahead of our brand and now we've caught up. She also talked about the data lake that gives our customers end-to-end insight that they've never seen before. Not Sally Jenkins, the new CMO. That's Sally Jenkins, our new CMO. So it's no longer talking about, you know, from lead to revenue but more interest because of the ability to aggregate the data, we can provide value they've never seen. And then Ahmed, of course, talking about the innovations that we have across our portfolio and then debut in Clare, which is AI for data management. Tomorrow, Michael Lewis, really excited to have him as a speaker and then, of course, Kara Swisher is our moderator this year. And, you know, co-founder of Recode, famous for interviewing Steve Jobs. And so she's a fantastic addition to the program. We should try to get Kara on theCUBE, Peter. It's great conversation with her. Final question, what does the brand stand for? The brand refresh, obviously, you know, we've been very complimentary of the product shop, certainly in interviewing all the execs. Very product-focused. But now that the new brand's out there, what should folks look for when they see the brand? What does it stand for? It's really about empowerment, right?  So we're super excited about it. Kim Salem Jackson here inside theCUBE, kicking off day one of two days of live coverage with theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. A lot of great action wall-to-wall, going all the way all day live in San Francisco till 5.30, six o'clock tonight. So stay with us. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break. It's time to wrap up. We'll be right back. Thank you.