I'm glad we're able to make this happen you know we got the bottom tribe in here rocking yeah I'm super grateful cuz your name is has come up on this podcast a lot especially over the last year and a half and so now for us to damn they're not have to speak for you no more I wonder what you would have said you know we able to just pass the mic I'm I'm I'm grateful and I'm really excited thank you bro I appreciate that man but you know because right there you know I'm saying man he found he found the legacy so it's all good man you know you keep the keep the tradition alive you know generation that's extremely important you know it's important for our young folks you know those who generation behind me you know and behind the mind them to know that this thing is not a sprint but it's a marathon all right and if we have to go from generation to generation to achieve a liberation of freedom and that's what we have to do and so it's up to the elders to be able to pass that information that knowledge down to the next generation and what I say is that I'll pass the baton right and the next you know it's gonna be there to grab to pick it up right as I pass it on yeah thousand percent I mean because I think a lot of times and the movement these days there isn't too many like intergenerational conversations that are happening you know I'm saying where we can learn from you know folks like you you know I'm saying and the way to move forward you know the mistakes that were made in the past and how do we grow a movement that is organized disciplined you know and following a political ideology that meets revolution you know well in terms of ideology the ideologies has to be based upon our history I mean it has to be something to the history and conditions and the social conditions that we that we live in the political social conditions that we live in we evolve an ideological foundation based for our own freedom and independence all right but if you don't know history they're gonna have that foundation which you can build an ideological course of action right as ideology comes from the idea right and ideas like what you think you see I'm saying so the determining factor is this here what you think is determining how you gonna act how you gonna behave right if you think crooked you gonna act crooked if you think like a criminal you gonna act like a criminal right if you don't think like a revolution you ain't gonna act like a revolutionary all right so that's the ideology all right so for us you know I think about the old song from the parliament fuck the dollars right so maybe remember George Clinton and the parliament fuck the dollars yeah and it wasn't a song they said what free your mind free your mind your ass will follow your mind and your ass will follow so that's the idea right right we need to free our minds you know I'm saying and free our mind free our understanding of what the conditions are that we live in and move towards our own national liberation our own independence you know we'll do the work you're right we'll do the work but for long as our mentality is subject to own oppression right based upon the kind of repression that we have been under for the last 400 something years all right you know we're traumatized people you know I'm saying and our goal in the justice is in terms of the struggle is to free our mind right from his trauma right and in the process doing so we will behave in accordance to freeing our mind right my book for instance for the full we are on liberators right the model the idea the slogan is that we have to liberate ourselves all right we have to think in terms of being on liberators all right and we're thinking in terms of liberation liberation all right so that is I that's the reason what the name of that book all right because I want to put in people's minds that we need to be liberators right we need to be emancipators we need to be abolitionists all right and if we can get in our heads get that in in our minds you know I'm saying then we need a process of decolonizing ourselves right all right but we have been what colonized as a people right and we're thinking in terms of that oppression of the colonizer all right so now how we do that we got to divorce ourselves from the colonizer right divorce ourselves from the type of mentality that was been imposed upon us through centuries of oppression that's a process right and it's generational all right so right will be made to very good strides right but their strides was to become part of the colonizer and that's it from the colonizer right and that is that was a problem right and that's the reason why I wouldn't wicks and story come I came out to the idea doing so right move for what black power right to distinguish the movement from that of in of integration and assimilation to one of empowering ourselves and our people all right so you can't empower yourself if you want to be wrong live along and alongside of and be part of the colonizer you can't empower yourself they will not permit it not only that your mentality in another self thing that you can probably yourself being a part of the colonizer is warped right it's up to your own trauma and so this idea of assimilation into a system that didn't want you in the first place is skewed it's skewed way of thinking all right I'm getting another general white supremacy white people right and the idea of white supremacy where did I come from why would anyone think that they can have be had be supreme one and then be supreme over other people's right that in myself is in my opinion and I think some psychology will also agree or psychiatrists will agree it's neurotic so that's a neurotic thinking you know that's some God complex thinking I was gonna say sadistic well the practice of that is sadistic yeah the thinking of itself is neurotic yeah right I'm almost saying it's a funny cuz you're really thinking outside of reality right you operate on the basis of thinking outside of reality so white supremacist is a flawed idea ended up itself and therefore it's a fault for all practice right and I tell white people to listen you won't be white supremacist fine with me right you be as much white supremacy won't be but when you try to impose white supremacy on me I got a right to defend myself all right that's my right so I tell white folks the issues of white supremacy is your problem don't make it our problem and it's important for you white folks to go to your uncles your brothers your cousins right your aunties who can that confederate flag and so forth and tell them that they wrong that their mentality is skewed right that's white folks struggle and they have to deal with that it comes our struggle when they try to impose white supremacy on corner all right but in terms of in terms of developing a universal our own universal humanity right in terms of white folks and end of themselves they have to go to they have to deal with their issues within themselves right so that's the issue that we have to understand for ourselves in terms of how we want to move forward as a people right anytime we can continue to find put it spend more more energy on white folks then we do it on black folks we got problem all right you see I'm saying yeah so and that's again that goes back to free your mind and your ass will follow right yeah we got free our minds you know I'm saying a mouth one said that he he don't consider himself American right you know he said he bought black for black and if it ain't about black anybody him right and you don't care about America because American is no more than he said no more democracy is no more than hypocrisy all right that's the core that's understanding how Malcolm understood our relationship to America right and so when we come to that again we come to the understanding right we come to emancipate ourselves come to the ideas of being the abolitionist with the ideas to be liberators right then we are divorced ourselves on the mentality I want to be assimilators and integrators all right because become that is essentially is this negation of ourselves right which are negation of the negation all right and so anyway I just want to share that that point and guys what you were saying you know yep thousand percent so so what led you what led to you freeing your mind you know I'm saying what was that like for what was that process like you know growing up in Fillmore and you know having having a politicization you know what led to what led to that you know I'm saying and what led to you identifying as a new African and whatnot and yeah what's the story behind that okay this that's a lot no one question but it takes me all the way back right and it goes back to my mom right and I give all places my mom right for everything that she has done for me and my and my siblings although we don't ever ever agree with everything right we know it came from the right place my mom as a young woman young mother she was a an African dancing but she's learned she was a student of African dance all right and in the process of her being a student African dance she taught my sister and I African dance and one thing that she let us know that upon learning this African dance that we African all right so that's a sitting at the foot of my mom I learned that I'm an African right I'm not a Negro I'm not a cool I'm not in the other derogatory names that he tried to impose upon us all right and therefore my thinking in terms of my own identity is that I'm of African descent all right I was raised that way all right now as we grow up of course in my days we had to deal with issues of Jim Crow right self-imposed in position of segregation and division between the nationality and I remember one time I am writing the school bus the school going to school right bus to school and at that time black folks was always had to sit in the back of the box so as young I think we're 89 years old right in film or living in film or and I want to sit in the front of the bus and the bus I said take your black ass in the back of the box so one white woman stood up and she said listen you can see up here from me with me and the bus driver was a little pissed off about that but I said a front with her right always then when she got to her bus stop she left off the bus right and the bus driver said she's gone take your black ass in the back of the bus right so I stood up I looked around see was any other person any other white person who's gonna stand up for me none did all right and that let me know that there are some people good and some people are here to the law all right I went to the back of the bus all right and that also is for me that in our social order law rules okay and so it was the law will determine the factor our people's behavior all right general growth laws right and then they acted upon in support of those laws messed up law messed up mentality messed up behavior all right so that was a learning experience for me one of the learning experiences for me about time I got into a high school naturally the civil rights movement has moved towards the black power movement all right and we began the processes of trying to get black studies in high school so I became a leader of the black student union and we fought for black studies in high school one of the person impressed of me at that point in time I was pretty good in school all the time it's always good school that's easy for me and one person was my math tutor was John Carlos right John Carlos from the iconic photo of he and Tommy Smith raising their fist at 1968 Olympics yeah talk to a school he's one of my math tutors at what school was what high school you got to say overfield high school east side San Jose okay that's where the high school at right elementary school in San Francisco and a high school in San Jose all right and he was going to San Jose State University at the time okay you know track and field that was his athletic scholarship I imagine all right and so do that do that time the the a lot of times of the college guys college kids kids particularly those in PSU they would go down to the high schools elementary school and two of the young people right again passing it passing forward you know that and being tutors and helping the system the younger people right we had a movement at that time we had an ideology of that we need to work with amongst each other all right and so that was one of one of the things that helped me evolve in terms of my understanding of the struggle in and of itself but naturally when I saw the Black Panthers right two things one I had some old elementary school friends in San Francisco had joined the Black Panther Party who actually go down in San Francisco in the summertime and hang out with right and to when I saw the brothers do that March March up to Sacramento right with weapons trying to defy at that time was Governor Ronald Reagan who was trying to change the law I can't really talk about law now right we try to change the law because at the time prior to the Panthers started having weapons or carrying weapons there was a California should be an open weapon state but you can carry your weapon all right but now when passes up here in the weapons now they won't change the law well fact the NRA came in you know yeah well before that you know I'm saying and so it was a change the law all right and so the Panthers went up to Sacramento can their weapons and say listen this is what the law says we can carry our weapons but that was called the Edmunds Act for Edmunds that was called right and they changed the law in order to prevent Black folks in general all right to possess weapons right again that's I did if you're using your weapons in support of white supremacy then you're good but using weapons in support of Black liberation then you back all right so let us understand how the law is applied how long it's applied so and so ultimately at some point in time I decided to be part of the Black Panther Party I joined I signed it and joined when I was 16 right went down to the office I was helping with the papers with me and my boys my elementary school friends would have since become members and I was down to hang out hang out with them and working on not bundling the paper so they can be distributed across the country and assisting at that you know taking about the trucks and so forth and I said I'm gonna join I went in the office and joined up and a few more officers of the Black Panther Party all right well again I was living in San Jose going to high school in San Jose and so I was taking my information I learned from San Francisco I'll take it back to San Jose and in my engagement with the Black student union what was what's the Black population like in San Jose at that time oh wow I don't think it was very many you know I mean San Jose was primarily Mexicans and Chicanos and Mexicans and white people right and there were a scattering of Black people in the neighborhood that I was living it was rather diverse we had several Black families in there and Latino families in there and Latino ex-families in there and mostly white families and for most what we got along you know and once while there was germashes between blacks and whites you know as you find across the country time from time you know how many of y'all were in the Black Student Union oh it's about 15 15 yeah in the high school but then we have Black Student Union in the high schools we have Black Student Union in San Jose State University and also in San Jose City College so y'all working together we're all working together right I used to go on speaking to us with the Black Student Union leader of in San Jose State and also San Jose City College and the three of us will go to different different schools and give presentations you know what I'm saying about Black history culture right and issues of the struggle is going on at that time particularly in regards to the issues of trying to get ethnic studies or Black studies in the schools right and that was our goals and objectives then right we got problem and in fact we got a problem with that here in Rochester where I live today you know there's no ethnic studies there's no Black studies in these schools and we are working diligently trying to change that change that reality yeah I think there's an important lesson there too you know you talk about being in high school then you also have the college BSU and then you also have the city college all working together I think that's a good lesson for Black students today is our year you feel me if you at UC Berkeley BSU you should be tapping in with Berkeley High's BSU you know and Berkeley High should be tapping in with the middle school BSU you know building building amongst the youth I think that's super important extremely important because and reason why it's because there's lessons learned you're teaching right you're preaching and you're teaching and you're teaching and you're preaching all right and again you passing the torch for one generation to the next right you have a continuity and building a movement and it was just extremely important all right and unfortunately with the destruction of Black Panther Party by Cornel Probe right which is devastating devastating in the manner of how they show at the party they use every type every type technique tactic that they use to destroy a nation a nation-state every type of tactic to do that they use against the Black Panther Party right everything from infiltration assassination of poison pen letters bombings shootings everything you can imagine what a destabilizing nation destabilize country use all those kind of tactics to destabilize and destroy Black Panther Party right that's the part of the state right and if you ever see that movie and I just saw the other day Fred Hampton Judas in the Black Messiah Judas in the Black Messiah right one thing that indicate to me was the dedication of the brothers and sisters a part of Black Panther Party they're going to lay down their lives you know for struggle you know saying yeah that's powerful right they believe right their minds are free you know saying and they acting according to that and so and that's the reason why J. O Hoover said that Black Panther Party was the greatest internal threat to the United States right so you have free mind and thinking black people that's a good attitude right there all right that's a threat to the United States we are free minded thinking black people I know I feel like a lot of us especially the folks who listen to our podcast and me myself I'm what you and Blake being family I know he knows a lot more about your personal history than I do I think a lot of us have got to know you feel ideologies but I think it's very important for ourselves and our listeners to get to know you a little bit more as a person and so I'm definitely interested in hearing a little bit more about that story of you know you were you going to school in San Jose yeah working with the Panthers and feel more so as you taking stuff back and forth what was what is the the continued process for you like as you get deeper and deeper into the work of the Panthers and reaching these new ideologies and practices well one thing is continuity right again like I said and I also in my house so you know we had pictures of growing up I had pictures of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King and rap Brown and round to Ranga you know we have pictures like that on the walls in our house right and so my thinking growing up was that this is what I'm supposed to do you know this is what I'm supposed to live I mean to be an inspiration and a practitioner of the ideas of freedom of liberation and independence and so naturally after I got arrested right was captured and said the prison I continue right continue organizing why I was in prison right so for me there's no other way right in my thinking right because the conditions from which we live in has proven that we if you don't struggle you don't suffer right if you don't struggle it'll be a continuation of conditions of oppression right racism white supremacy right and the exploitation of black people in black lives right so we have to engage you know now when I was young of course I thought we're gonna have revolution our lifetime and we're gonna be you know be victorious in our lifetime as I mature I understand now that is a marathon there's not a sprint right it's from one generation to the next all right I can say we engage in 450 years of traumatic oppression right we only been 150 something years since out of that oppression moving towards liberation all right I mean that's what 250 years almost 300 years of decolonizing de traumatizing that we have to get over you know I mean it's a process and for me today is question of what I do today what I contribute today does you make it something less they have to contribute but for the next generation my kids my grandkids my great-grandkids all right so every contribution that we make today makes it easier for those who follow behind right and that's important too right you have that kind of thinking in your mind that your contribution does mean something as small or as big as it may be right it has an impact right historical impact at least a footprint there's nothing more right a footprint for someone who follow those tracks all right and we have to understand that that's the right reason why we need to continuously call our people to free their minds so now you asked more about my personal yeah so I mean so from you said you were you got arrested at 18 right 19 19 so what was if you join what was those three years like for you from being 16 joining the Panthers and feel more up until 19 years old you know you talked about doing the the papers programs programs fighting against drugs in the community engaging in free health clinic supporting free health clinic right vision I was recruited into the black underground yeah yeah I I'm happy that you speak on like how many some of the more like well it's all dirty work I guess but you know I'm saying like I think so so often people just get caught up in the speaking in the monumental things like going up to the Capitol and bearing arms and it's like what was the you know that day-to-day stuff that folks had to do you know I'm saying we're calling the grunt work that's that's what's important why because the right party have what they call a survival program survival revolution and survival programs was it was the means by which the community supported the black man part of the background party supported the community there was a synchronization between the two right and it was important about that because when the police is available to party the community used to come out and support the party you see you know that you know because they recognize the party was an instrument in support of them it's like an inter communal exchange you know absolutely right right a reciprocal relationship okay because they recognize the background party represents their best interest the community's best interest right and they were invested therefore they were investing in the community and the community was invested into the via the survival programs the right survival program today I call them decolonization program right my book I call decolonization program right we need to develop decolonization we need to decolonize ourselves from having such dependence on the government and dependence on the system that is ultimately used to to to oppress us all right so we need to develop these decolonization programs and we had to think in ourselves these are kind of programs that we're building right alternative programs to what exists today right and and great cooperative working relationships amongst each other in terms of our needs so if we can develop these decolonization programs and find ourselves growing more depend upon ourselves rather than depend upon the government then we can see how much more we can empower ourselves right instead of being dependent right so decolonization is extremely important and it is a process again we got a free of mind and our behinds will follow the fact that I was saying because it's like so many folks are so obsessed with destroying which is rightfully so but at the same time we're destroying these systems we got to be building new systems and showing people that you know there's alternative to the system that they're experiencing absolutely correct I tell people I tell people today say anybody what I hate about what I love right about what I'm gonna destroy but what I'm gonna build right that's important so if you're building something that means you replacing something right so let's build some that replaces the old and build something new right let's create alternatives to the existing system has not worked for us right and deliberately right it's structured in the system not to work for us right and we come to the understanding you know we have to create systems and that's work for us right made for us by us for us right and that's the idea of liberation right and building to us independence so that's the process that we have to get in our heads in our minds that this is what we need to achieve right unfortunately again you know we're so caught up in the colonization system that we have become dependent right and so we have black folks who would say that I can't live without no way folks I can't live without this system I mean like chicken George and he said I don't know how to be free you know that's how a lot of people live yeah I don't know how to be free you know saying and I understand it because it's a tough experience right that path love dog right you should have a lot of dog you don't say and you bring the bell the dog comes out of baking for the food right we've been taught to hear that bell you know that I'm saying go run to the master for the food so we got to get rid of that man yeah that's two things I learned from from you and Kwame Ture and and we are on liberators you talk about not wanting to get us us needing to step away from the frame of mind that you know us not being on a dependent on a few good white folks and you know Kwame Ture also says they got you running what got you running around thinking that everything you got is at the hands of some good some good white boy giving it to you now that does the fact but now I don't make sure we understand also this yeah all right so we need to have those who woke to support our movement right they always been there right there was white folks with abolitionists you know to support our free time bro that's one I'm garrison that's another all right there was white folks a part of the Harry Tubman's a railroad you know you know make sure that we have people come out of slavery you know and so we need to have those same way folks today yeah that's what me and Blake been battling with out here just trying to realize like I don't know you know yeah I think especially Oakland in the Bay Area so like multi-racial and you know everybody got a black lives matter sign you know in front of a house but you know that house was just stolen by a bank of a black you feel me and they just bought it and gentrified the neighborhood but black lives matter so it's so complex or you just get so used to being dehumanized by them it's like a not a fight to not naturally turn into you know what I'm saying you don't want to you don't want to model the the actions and ideologies of of those white supremacist you know I'm saying the folks that you again right like the white supremacist that you named earlier yeah it's hard though but yeah I think reading your stuff and thinking about the Panthers and the rainbow coalitions realizing that like it's gonna take solidarity international solidarity it's gonna take you know white folks in our own communities to back us for us to really get free we would be ignorant to think that we could do this all on our own as we try to build in Africa it's gonna take support absolutely absolutely and like I said before they're gonna take white folks to deal with this white supremacy you know they have to deal with their own country their own white skin privilege right and understanding that humanity is being a task all right that the human being a task right and in essence white supremacy divorces itself from humanity and lords each other lords over humanity right and that's a problem white folks have to deal with you know white skin privilege right and the system has to make has created this idea whereby they believe that what they're doing is right right that it is in certain instances humane or in most industries is God like all right it's a quote-unquote natural way of life that's where the whole thing are eugenics come from you know this idea you know inferior and superiority right and some people are inferior some people are superior all right there was a false premise right again if you get if your ideology is based upon that didn't behave like that right so we need to change our thinking we need to change ideology right and we change your ideology what emancipation abolitionist and liberation right emancipation abolitionist liberation and if we take those three points and understand the qualities of each one of those emancipation abolitionist and liberation then you will in fact free your mind your body will follow yeah so you know you join the Black Panther Party at 16 and then you know eventually you're recruited into the underground keep talking a little bit more about the underground and and the Black Liberation Army and kind of the history of the BLA which you know you outlined and we are on liberators but can you talk a little bit more about that uh what I talked about in the book we own liberators is information that's provided by the law enforcement association or something like LEAA that's where I glean that information from all right so I want to make it understood that there's nothing in that in that book that's not already known by the government because that's where the information came from all right what is also should be known for everyone is that when the Black Panther Party came into existence in 1966 October 1966 one of the things that who you knew and and Bobby Shield had had written into the structure of the Black Panther Party was that one rule number six no Black Panther Party Americans join any other or underground organization for the Black Liberation Army all right so the Black Panther Party was evolved from its own conception that the idea at some point in time there will be a Black Liberation Army all right now saying that um what LEA report that I remember reading was that in 1968 there was a major riot in Mexico right or 1968 and they the the authorities that had killed a bunch of people students and activists and according to one report one person that they found was killed down there in his pocket was a note that was signed Black Liberation Army now whether or not he was actually a member of Black Liberation Army back in 1968 or there was something that was evolving from the Black Panther Party we don't know okay well what we do know is that all times in the history of Black people in this country there's always been that kind of resistance armed resistance all right from the various various slavery bans across the country throughout the history of Black people in America to uh uh Robert Williams and uh and him having to go into exile by fighting the Klan uh from the after the blood brotherhood or many people do not know anything about it they should learn about it after the blood brotherhood was armed resistance against the Klan to to the uh digging of defense right who supported the civil rights movement armed men, dinkins, preachers, etc right uh in defense of Black people right to the point where we have the existence of the Black Liberation Army came into existence then the party so the the idea that people resisted itself, resisted or armed themselves to resist there's nothing new in the history of our country or history of this country in the history of Black people we just they don't tell us that they don't teach us that all right they don't want to choose to be passive or passive resistance right the civil rights you know that kind of stuff right so there's nothing uh out of history in terms of there has been young people who armed themselves and to resist uh uh police brutality and and police terror right white police terror in our community there's nothing new about that uh what it's new about it was that it was organized okay it was organized to an extent where it became a serious they thought a serious threat uh to the country that's usually why they clamped down on it so tough and so ruthlessly and the and it's toward the Black Panther Party and the the Nasset Nasset I remember because it was infantile in terms of the structure and this organizing we also got to remember also that Black Panther Party was a youth organization all right the inception of Black Panther Party was nobody older than 30 years old right with 30 years and younger all right the primary most members of the Black Panther Party was teenagers right major youth organization all right that was supremely supremely in love with Black folks for Black people right and wanted to do the work wanted to sacrifice themselves in doing the work it was youth organization all right for the most part and so uh by virtue of our understanding of that we was engaged in and believed that we're gonna build a revolution not necessarily knowing all the principles and tactics of doing so uh having studied for instance the struggles was going on in in Africa the struggles going on in Latin America right the Cuban revolution the struggles in Angola, Namibia, Mozambique, Guinea-Bissau South Africa, what's going on down in Tupelo to Latin America as Apatistas and etc we as young people took those what happened in Algeria Bella Algiers as one example once one of the movies that we were had to had to go watch had to had to study Bella Algiers as another example it inculcated in the idea of the thought that we can in fact engage in armed struggle all right but we're infantile infantile in as much as we didn't understand the depth of the of the opposition that we was engaged in right the military might of the never engaged in and so uh some people said it was adventurous for us engaged in that kind of struggle right kind of armed struggle some people say it was necessary right in order to put checks and balances right on it on the type of impunity uh that law enforcement was engaged in in killing black people right now one thing you you can look in history uh in statistics and and you can see that for example uh the level of people police murders of black people prior to the BLA right and decreasing a police killing of black people when BLA was operating to the destruction of BLA and then the increasing of police murders again all right all right that is statistical information that you can find in history all right so that's what that tells you that tells you that when you engage right for some checks and balances things you say some lives all right so when they function yeah but when they function with impunity you know what I'm saying then you know our lives don't matter all right so uh now let me get to that point because black lives matter again it's a social consciousness movement right I define it as a social consciousness movement in the trend in Tennessee right it's like the black consciousness movement of uh uh Steve Beko right in South Africa all right i'm raising the consciousness of people for their own liberation the black lives matter is basically that it's not a military organization but it's not a revolutionary organization it's a social consciousness movement right the red consciousness and the ideas that we need to value the lives of black people right and so why would the government essentially resist the idea that black people's violence matter or they need to be a social consciousness movement right because it learns to the ideas of independence emancipation abolitionists and liberation right so they don't want you to be having ideas that you're thinking that you have some value because if you think you value what you're going to do anything to maintain that value anything to show that value absolutely absolutely and that's that is the power of the black lives matter movement and that's what FBI came up with this idea what they call the black extremists black black identity extremist movement so that if you take yourself if you value yourself as a black person your identity has become extremist your identity has become extremist so you value yourself what come on now come on now they're taking what they're thinking they're taking what they're thinking you know what i mean basically how you think right straight up you um you've been you've been speaking on this in terms of when you mentioned all these revolutionary moments and revolutions that that actually came into fruition but i was i wanted to hear you speak a little bit on you know there are people who think that liberation can be found without violence having to be waged by those being oppressed there are there are black folks there are african folks that believe that we will get free without checks and balances as you just named them um and what can you say to that to those people i can say what malcolm said right malcolm said listen they said uh we have the right to defend ourselves right and that's the whole idea remember Black Panther Party original name the community was Black Panther Party for self defense right and so our idea is that we need to preserve our existence right and so if we need to preserve our existence then there should be no bounds or or reserves a reservation and doing so right uh so i believe in self defense right if you're coming up to me i'm gonna fight back right i gotta preserve my existence i gotta i gotta human right of self-preservation right and i think all black people should have a human right of self-preservation all right and so self defense is is is is is an heritage of the idea of self-preservation all right and so you know i'm not going publicly uh tell people that they need to arm themselves and or grow out and strike out against the system we tried that and if it's not organized right they're gonna destroy you with the quickness all right and i'll tell you what fred said right that our movement is based upon people all right if you go watch the movie he'll give you a straight up based on building a movement of people that the power is in what the people that's why we have to slow them power to the people right because it is government is based upon people's consent and if you are consent to oppression then the government gonna continue all right so yes we need to figure out the ways and means to which to defend ourselves at all times right for the idea of self-preservation and of course doing so we need to organize people for that's our best defense all right changing people's mind and the more people's marriage has been changed in support of the struggle right the less we have to deal with the questions of arm resistance right or engaging in arm resistance right so my my goal my thinking is that we need to build a mass movement right so mass movements change the systems it changes entire government mass movements does all right so we'll take the the quote of uh i think it was monsay talk that bill good power comes out the barrel of a gun right but yes the gun had to be mass people right not a few individuals you see what i'm saying and so that quote it can't be taken out of context right and we need to really put it in in the proper context and the proper context that we need to build a mass movement all right that's the proper context and then you defend that mass movement yeah i think it's just being aligned with the masses then you're able to move you know what i mean if you don't have a mass amount of people fighting objectively you know what i mean but the same like ideological framework then you know the chances of victory isn't there you know it all ties back into organized into being organized and i think sometimes people think organizing is just like taking up the same amount of space it's like nice being aligned on every reason to why y'all taking these actions I fact that's the fact because what good is the gun if you don't know the reason even why you're using a gun you know what i'm saying you know what good is what good if handing out the meals if y'all know why you're handing out the meals what good is to be as you move meetings if you don't know why you're meeting well good is the medical clinic if you don't know why you're providing the medical clinic so we can go on and on you know that's that's not well and so that's that's that's what we are in the in my book you'll find that but for the ethereal foundation called three faced face to face for national independence. All right? And so I try to raise down a roadmap, right? A plan of action. So Robert Cookbook gives you the plan. Well, it's a manual, right? If you follow the manual, if you follow the manual step-by-step, then you'll get to the logical conclusion and results.  Yeah, so that's important. And I'm a little bit surprised to find how that book was written over 20 years ago, 21 years ago when the first one wrote. And the second printing was 10 years ago. It was 11 years ago. Second printing. And you still find that it still resonates today. So it must be something in there that has some value. There's a lot of things in there with a lot of value. I'll tell you that. You know, you very humble, very humble. But when I was talking to you the other day, I was like, man, are you legit predicted Kamala Harris? You legit predicted Barack Obama. You feel me? And like, you know, I know you said that some of the language is outdated. But for me, I was like, nah, this language is predicting and giving me a clear, guided outlook on everything that's going on in society and gives me a clear view of like what I need to do to move forward. You feel me? If I want change. Well, both you and the Nancy, you're doing the work for, I understand. You're doing the work there in the back. You know what I mean?  And I salute Barack Obama. We salute you. We salute you. You feel me?  Learn from you. You know what I'm saying? Like we learn from our elders and we just a product of that, you know? Like one thing I say all the time on here is like, the ones he says all the time too, the things we talk about isn't new. You know, we learn and we're regurgitating a lot of the things that we learn, you know, from folks like you, folks like Asada, folks like Kwame Teray, you know what I'm saying? We don't feel our brothers inside. Mutulu Shakur, right? Sunyada, right? Point Dexter, Chip Fitzgerald, right? We got a host of comrades inside prison that needs to be out. You got a young brother named Kwame Shakur in Indiana, need to be out. You got a brother, Raishi Johnson, needs to be out. We got some heavy theoretical brothers inside prison, you know? Surviving the madness. And I know what they're surviving because I've been there. I was there almost 50 years, all right?  First time, now let me say something for me, right? And this is personal, you know what I'm saying? My release on October, 2020 was the first time I ever spent any time with my daughter on the streets. She was in the womb, in the womb when I was arrested, when I was captured, all right? So the first time we ever had to spend any time at all on the streets, me being a quote unquote, free man, all right? That was a beautiful thing, man. Beautiful thing. Yeah, and so this idea of mass incarceration and how they had to impose, again, some trauma on the black community, you know, seven-raising fathers from their kids, their mothers from their children, right? Divorcing, splitting up families, et cetera. Not only that, but then it also inhibiting the growth potential of black people in this country. And here you have young boys and young women sent to prison at their most productive years, at their most productive years and sent away ten, 20, 30, 40 years, all right? So where's the production of the pro-creation of our people, all right? And that's, in essence, that program, that practice is genocidal, right? In whole or in part, right? And the part is that they prevent us from reproducing, right, from generation to generation, all right? So here you have eight or nine million black people, men and women, over a period of time, over years, unable to produce. And you know, one of our population in the United States in the last 50 years, ain't passed 15%, you know what I mean? If they ain't killed, they put in some penitentiary so we can't produce, you know? Or sterilizing the women, you know what I mean?  And how it's impacted our lives, it's just the destruction of the black people of the party, since 1970, 71, right? Come on, let's look at this thing, from where it has kind of impacted half, socioeconomic and politically on our community. It's been devastating, right? Our introducing the crack in our community. We all know that it's reduced by the CIA, from Canada, it's reduced by the community, by the CIA, we all know that it's well documented. Called kind of intelligence agency. Yes, that's right, so intelligence agency and FBI, right? What is it called, Iran Contrugate? I hear the Iran Contrugate, there is trafficking drugs for weapons, for the conscious in Nicaragua, right?  Exposing all that, it means to lose behind it. And then he ended up dead, the reporter, white guy, right? Under suspicion, I don't know why, but yeah, I have been exposing it. But this is what is documented, you know? How they are doing it, doing the Vietnam War. You know, they had what they call the Golden Triangle. That's when our heroine was a prominent predominant in our community, right? To suppress what? To suppress the movement at that time. There was riots going on across the country. When they introduced heroine in the community, the riots dissolved, right? Disappeared. Disappeared, right? Because our community was injected with this heroine for the Golden Triangle. Fools like, what is his name? Frank Lucas and Barnes and Nicky Barnes and new characters, you know what I mean? Saturating our community with this poison, you know? During the party, we fought diligently against this poison in our community, right? We had pamphlets put out, you know? Fighting against drugs in our community, you know what I mean?  What is cocaine, right? Now they got what they call it, what they call it, deuce, right? Whatever this stuff is, these kids are taking out madness. They're destroying the people, destroying the brain. Brain cells, okay?  And so, again, what's it about?  On the topic of us freeing our minds, I want to talk about identity. And first, I'm gonna read you a quote by Kwame Turei, and then we're gonna get to the question. So, Turei says, you must know if you're African or American because America is Africa's number one enemy. Can you talk about how that quote directly relates to why you identify as new African and what was that decolonization of your mind that led to that? Well, I told you, I was already identified as being African, right, from sitting at the foot of my mom's, right? So, I grew up that I did, right, I'm African, right? Blake, no, my grandfather, back in 1970, or 1971, started the family with Kwanzaa celebration. I've been to a few of those. Yeah, that's right, it's funny. It's a tradition of the bottom family, you know what I'm saying? We do Kwanzaa, you know, to make that kind of culture. If anything that Ron Kwanzaa has really gave to our show, right, if anything, other than the idea of culture national is gonna free somebody, or both Kwanzaa, okay? And I salute Ron Kwanzaa for giving us Kwanzaa, okay? Very important tradition. Then Google Sabah is very, very important for us to study and understand and live by it, in Google Sabah. But as you asked the question, I was in prison. I think I was in San Quentin, and I was communicating with Imar Obedeli. Imar Obedeli was the first president of the Republican New Africa, right? And we got to understand that it was a split in the party. Analogically, it was an analogical split in the party, especially the issues of the New African program, the Visual Government of New Africa. It came into existence in 1968. It came into existence in 1968, 500 New Africans and 500 black people in Detroit, and a church in Detroit. A lot of people don't know that their church was the Church of Reverend Franklin. Who's Reverend Franklin? That was the Wreeth of Franklin's daddy, right? Wreeth of Franklin's daddy was a nationalist, not for the most part. I think he grew up as a Garveyite, right? He may have been a Garveyite during his growth period. I hope you don't know nothing about Garvey, but that's another story. Okay, who's Garveyite? And as a result of his understanding of oppression, he permitted these 500 nationalists to have a meeting in his church. At that church in 1968, they decided that they own, create what they call the Provisional Government of New Africa. And what is New Africa? New Africa is the five states of what we call the Black Belt, right? And they declared for themselves that these five states should be the homeland of black people in the United States, right? So they evolved what they called Provisional Government of New Africa.  During the Civil War, almost at the conclusion of the Civil War, General Tokumusi Sherman put out what is called Field Order Number 15. And you find that, right? And Field Order Number 15 indicated that certain lands from South Carolina South to the Florida Basin will be under control of the emancipation of African people, of black people at that time. Field Order Number 15. Field Order Number 15 basically established what then became Black Nishin Hood or Black Belt South, all right? And they would be protected by the Yankee soldiers, right? These black folks who were emancipated, right? During the course of the emancipation of proclamation.  I mean, protected by the Yankee Army. And then we established what they called Freedom Bureaus all down the South, right? Whereas they began to build the kind of organizations for their own emancipation and of their own quote, liberation, right? Taking control of the resources that are available to them for their own survival, right? During that period of time. That's right before the end of the Civil War. Seven years later, 1987, they had an election, presidential election, right? Between Ruther B. Hayes and Samuel Tilden. And Ruther B. Hayes won the popular vote, but he did not win the editorial vote, okay? And so then they had a compromise between Ruther B. Hayes and Tilden called the Tilden or the Hayes Compromise, right? Hayes Tilden Compromise. And Hayes Tilden Compromise established the basis by which Hayes would win the presidency, but in order to do so, he had to withdraw the Yankee troops from the territory, the liberator territory of black people, all right? And so the Yankees Army withdrew from the territory of black people were maintaining building liberation or independence, building nationhood, and that became the event of, as the course of Reconstruction came the event of what? Reconstitution, reconstituting of the Confederates into the Ku Klux Klan. And they had 100 years of lynching down the South, all right? And destroying what was then the part of the Reconstruction, post-men Reconstruction, destroying Reconstruction, and it started the first migration of African people up North and to other parts of the country. And so when we look at that history, we can see at one point in time, we was already moving and building toward other kind of nationhood and liberation, and that was the short. So 1968, knowing this history, these 500 people came together and said, listen, we're gonna rebuild. We're gonna reestablish ourselves, and we're gonna build a little cover for the Visual Government of the Republic of New Africa. All right? And again, like I said, I was in prison, and I was engaging Imari Ovedelli, who was a Merriam prison at the time, and along with his brother. And I decided at that point in time that I would come a member of and a citizen of the Visual Government of the Republic of New Africa. All right? Now, let me add something, let me add another point to this. What this thing in New Africa is? What is that? Right? And one of the things that we have to understand in terms of history as people in this country, that we are an augmentation, a messengers nation of other groups and peoples, right? Remember that coming, for coming being brought here to this country, from off the African coast, right? We have the Mandikas, the House of Philanis, Mandingos, Ibu, all the types of different tribes were brought to this country, and they were brought together, and they were made to mess-inginate together, or amongst each other, all right? Not only that, but we also had the Portuguese, the Dutch, the English, the Spanish, to also mess-inginate into our bloodstream. Not only that, we also had the Creek and the Seminovals, right? And the Cherokees, right? Mess-inginate into our bloodstream, right? In our genetic blood clove, all right? And so, by understanding it, accepting that history, right? Recognizing and accepting that history, right? We said, well, then in essence, we have created a new African, right? And so that's where we come to that identity, is come to our own identity of who we are as a people, right? As a people in this country, right? We comprise all these nations, right? So who is better to talk about these issues on both on humanitarian and world view than us, all right? All right, we're the most oppressed and the most wanted to be free, okay? And we had had these kinds of relationships with all the other people on the planet, including Africa, Portuguese, Spanish, the Dutch, and the English, and the Arabs, to many of you, all right? So given that understanding that reality, right? Historical reality, why not accept that reality and give it identity, all right? And in doing so, what do you do? Free your mind, you know, ask your father. Yeah, so I'm a new African, all right? I'm not identified as me, American, half American, half American, half African, half American. You know what I'm saying? We split this thing down the middle. No, I accept all that, okay? I'm a new African, you see? And that's how, you know, again, we have to decolonize ourselves and our thinking, all right? Decolonize ourselves, all right? Because actually they're free people, a free person, all right? And there's a process, bro, there's a process. Definitely, you know, we see new Africa, like, as a part of our liberation of African people here, you know, in this land, this so-called America. Can you talk a little bit about how new Africa and pan-Africanism align? Oh, well, yeah, they're alive because we have people from the diaspora, all right? That's point number one, all right? And so for Marcus Garvey, he came, since he came up with the idea, I'm not saying he's not the only one, but since he came up with the idea of being a pan-Africanist, all right? And Marcus Garvey movement. And Marcus Garvey movement was the greatest movement of black people in the history of our struggle, all right? And W. don't know that, that he had organized, his organization came from all the way from Brazil in the Caribbean, England, Africa, and the United States, all right? And he brought the flag, you know, people don't know that. The red, black and green flag. Marcus Garvey brought that, okay? And so that history, the voice, after he came out of the, W. the voice and he came out of NAACP, right? He brought and became a pan-Africanist, all right? That's usually why he's buried in Ghana today. You know what I'm saying? His whole process, read Du Bois and read his evolution. All right, people don't wanna talk about the talent, people always wanna talk about the talent to 10th, but don't talk about how Du Bois, you know, died a pan-Africanist, you know what I mean? He died a pan-Africanist. He was the one who created the first international pan-Africanist convention, right? He was one of the first, or the second of the pan-Africanist convention, all right? And so people don't understand history, they need to go back to that history. And so if you understand that history and the contribution of W. the voice, right? And Marcus Garvey, they're gonna see how we can, or should be, recognize ourselves in terms of African people in the diaspora that in association with other African people in the world, that we become pan-Africans, all right? Now, I'll take a point further.  They have a dual citizenship for Ghana. Public statement, all right? They have dual citizenship for Ghana, all right? They recognize that we are African people in the diaspora, Ghana, the nation of Ghana, all right? Very similarly, the Jewish people, right? Have dual citizenship with the United States and Israel. Dual citizenship, no problem, no problem whatsoever. So my question then to black people in this country, how can we have not evolved and developed dual citizenship with any other country in Africa, all right? That we find affiliation to or find affinity to. Why not, all right? And so again, we need to free our mind, recognize ourselves, all right? And think that we are, quote unquote, African, quote half American, right? We should be African and recognize that and build our relationship with ourselves and the other country, all right? So that's my understanding and evolution in my understanding in terms of history from Pan-African, from W. Du Bois and also from Mark Montgomery with the idea of what it means and the importance of having principles and belief in Pan-Africanism. A thousand percent. I know a little bit earlier you was talking about, you know, your comrades who are still locked up to this day. Can you talk about the Jericho movement that you co-founded as well as can you define what a political prisoner is for our listeners? Yeah. Some years ago, the Republic of Africa, RNA, used to have marches around the White House and they called the Jericho march. All right, that's an inception. It came through the provisional government of the RNA. And I think it was in 1995 or 96, the RNA stopped having those marches in the White House, around the White House, calling for the reasonable prisoners and et cetera. And so I had to ask the question, why is this being stopped? And no one had ever asked it for me. And so what I did, I put out a call to the movement to resurrect the Jericho marches. Okay. And I come at Herman Ferguson, Barbara Herman Ferguson and Sophia Bukari, Sister Sophia Bukari, heard my call, they came, we had meetings while I was in prison. And they decided, yes, we support you, Julio, we're gonna make this thing happen. So in 1998, approximately 6,000 activists from across the country marched, organized themselves and marched to Washington DC and started the event of, again, the restoration of what was the Jericho movement or Jericho marches. And because it was so well structured, well organized by Sophia Bukari and Herman Ferguson, both have now gone to the ancestors. So I'm the only living co-founder of Jericho movement. We decided that we will continue. That was in 1998 with the building of a movement, movement in support of political prisoners, right? For the amnesty, fighting for the amnesty of political prisoners. And Jericho has been in existence for almost 20 something years now, right? Doing this work, doing this fight, trying to build support for political prisoners. Any of y'all out there listening to this, right? Go to your website, Google, Jericho, find what he is, Jericho member of Jericho chapter in your community and join, right? If you're about to struggle, join Jericho, right? Be a part of this movement of free political prisoners. If you ain't free in political prisoners, then you ain't by no movement. That's a shame movement. That's an old jury on set, right? It's a shame movement. If you ain't by no movement, hey, cause anyone of y'all can be a political prisoner. What you saying? So political prisoners, political prisoners is one who in prison or outside prison, let's say outside prison, engaged in struggle and was illegally and or very properly legally, and I don't know how you can define legally when you have the laws in the surface criminal, are meant to find for the political activity and actions, right, inside prison. Then we have those inside prison who become politicized while in prison, right? And then they have changed the criminal mentality into a political mentality. And then they are engaged in the exercise of friend and my behind will follow, right? And building structure, understanding, teaching and organizing inside prisons, right? And therefore their relationship to the state has changed, right? And more often than not, they're being repressed because of how they think and how they behave, right?  And in prison, that's dangerous, right?  And so therefore those individuals will also qualify, quantify and qualify as also being identified as political prisoners, right? Because their behavior, their thinking, their attitudes, their commitment to struggle is that of politics, that of freeing prisoners and freeing themselves, right? And so we qualify them as political prisoners. Now, there are some people that would say that anybody to go to the penitentiary because of the illegalities or the impossibility some say the impossibility is getting a fair trial because you're black in America that only match you a political prisoner. I negate that. I refute that idea. If you came to the penitentiary because you're breaking babies, but you ain't no political prisoner, right? You can't convict them of that. I'm not saying we say if you convict them of that. And I'm saying, if there's no story, right? But if you engage in criminal behavior in the streets, by selling drugs in our community, right?  But you create a crime against humanity. You're a crime against our peoples, right? If you engage in those kind of activities, right? For whatever reason that you engage in those reasons, economic reasons and so forth, there's an alternative for you to deal with your economic issues, right? Rather than poison in our community, right? And inhibiting the development of our people, right? So I ain't got no support of drug dealers and anybody engaging in that kind of activity, right? And I will not, by virtue of you being in prison, identify you as political prisoners. Nope, not happening. Yeah, I think I hadn't really considered the fact that, you know, while you may, let's say if I went to prison for robbing banks and while I'm in there, I link up with some folks who have directly come to prison because of their anti-colonial, anti-imperialist ways, right? And they then start to politically educate me and now I'm on the same hype as them. I didn't realize from that moment that I will start to experience the same repression while being locked up that they were experiencing. That hadn't been something that I had considered at all. And I don't think people think about that at all. I think when we think about political prisoners, we think of folks like yourself, folks like Asada, right? Who was like, oh, they was down with the movement from however, like that's exactly what got them locked up. Is there anti-colonial, anti-imperialist ways? Not realizing that one can become awakened while they locked up and now you under. From your experience, what have you seen as far as like being able to see people become politically awakened and then them starting to be treated completely? Like start to experience the same type of repression that you've experienced since the moment you got in there? What would that look like? Same thing I had after suffering, being harassed all the time. Had to sell, search for no reason. Had to mail, tap it with. Had your phone calls tapped. Them not giving you the kind of job that you are deserving inside the prison. Whatever kind of mean job that may be. Essentially pointing you out at quote unquote, a troublemaker, right? Because you are voicers. You're speaking against the system because the system is oppressive, right?  And you're fighting for the rights of other prisoners. You have the capacity, the human to use the law or have to fight back, right? You'll be targeted for doing so. Listen man, anytime you fight against oppression you expect great repression, you know what I mean? That's the end of the game, you know? And so those brothers inside the penitentiary, sisters also inside the penitentiary who has decided to become woke, right? And recognize that the system is through, right?  And then they have some historical foundation with which they are engaged in struggle, right? Then you gotta give kudos to them, you know what I'm saying? They are on the track of fight back, right? And it's important, man. We don't leave them people hanging in the wind like that. You know what I'm saying? We don't leave those soldiers left behind, you know what I'm saying? We can't leave our comrades in prison left behind. And so we need to fight for the release of Mutulo, the release of Sundiala, release of Maroon, release of Chip, right? Release of Oranza, right? If you know the story, Oranza was granted parole, was granted parole, was on the front door to walk out the penitentiary, right? And Gonzalez, who was attorney general at the time, said he's not gonna release him, right? The superintendent was at the front door and let him go out to prison, being released. And Gonzalez, who was attorney general at the time, sent him back to his cell. Yeah, gave away everything in his property, sent him back to his cell, right? He's been in prison now for almost 10 years as a result of that. Haven't been, already been granted parole by the court board. And they just didn't wanna let him go, right? Illegal, illegal, straight up, straight up illegal. He's been held hostage for over 10 years, Oranza. Yeah, he's a political prisoner, right? We should be fighting for his release, you know? But if you don't know these stories, you don't understand these things, how you gonna fight for them? That's to realize it's important to build a mass movement, right? Okay, so that's what Jericho is doing. That's the work of Jericho, right? And that's why Jericho needs to be supported. And Jericho is not a black organization, right? Because we know they are Native Americans that we support like Denipel T.R., right? They're a Mexican, a Chicano prisoner that we support. They're a white prisoner support like David Gilbert, right? Whose son is now a district attorney in San Francisco, right? And we're fighting for all of their releases, right? We're free to go to prison. When you say mass movements, it's not just about the number of people, right? It's about the number of people while addressing all the forms of imperialism and colonization. So like when you touch on like the importance of here, like fighting for political prisoners, creating survival programs. That's what it's- It's not separate. The one is not separate from the other, all right? No, one is not separate from the other. It is building a mass movement for liberation and freedom. Okay. We live in a system that's based upon profiteering and exploitation, all right? Anytime you have, what, 600 billionaires that can choose 90% of the wealth of 300 and 360 million people, something wrong with that. Something wrong with that equation. Something extremely wrong with that equation. And it baffles me, I'm being honest with you, it baffles me how the American population permit themselves to be exploited in that capacity, right? 600 billionaires to choose 90% of the wealth of the country. You already said it. It's our minds, all right? You're looking at the pandemic right now too. And so the rest of us, the rest of the American population is fighting for 10% of the wealth. We fight for the crumbs, all right? So we need to identify those 600 billionaires, right? We need to identify them 600 billionaires and say, yo, you're gonna have to hand it up. You know what I'm saying? Y'all gotta cut these, you know, these families that have these 2,800, 2,800 families. 600 billionaires, 2,800 families. They're called the majority of the wealth of this country. No, and we're lying, what's happening? Wait a minute. It dabbled me. How are we permitting that? You know, how the American population is permitting that? And then we're gonna fight amongst each other for the crumbs to fall off the table, are these billionaires? Come on, man. Killing each other, robbing each other, but it just shows you how strong this colonial propaganda has our minds just warped. Completely warped. The propaganda is so good, we don't even identify it as propaganda sometimes. You know, from watching Netflix to watching YouTube, you don't even realize it sometimes.  So I'm watching it, it's pure propaganda. Bro, every breath we take in this world as Black folks, as Africans, is being exploited, bro. Every morning we get up and we are slaves to capitalism. Every day we have no autonomy. We do not get to choose what we do every day, at all. I have no choice. I know I gotta make that dollar though. I mean, that's one thing, even in We Are All Liberators, you talk about controlled the amount of time you watch on TV. You know what I'm saying? Because there's so much propaganda coming out of it that on my REA, even subconsciously, I might just be watching a show to try to distract myself or whatever, just have fun or whatever.  It's science, bro. It's basic science. So that's not on my R.  I'm playing video games at the same time. So I'm gonna get myself carried, but I'm listening to these politics. You feel me? Let me add something to that too as well, right? Sometimes we get so caught up in the struggle, so you get so caught up in the movement that we don't go back and do some reflection and self-healing, all right? Sister Sophia Bukari in her book, A War at Home, A War Before, right? She talks about that. And it's extremely important that activists read that book. You said A War Before? It's called? The War Before, right? By Sister Sophia Bukari, right? It is extremely important to read that book because in that book, she talks about the need for us to engage in self, to have a retreat, to retreat, engage in self-healing, right? To decompress, essentially, because we can't become so tied up and so caught up in the struggle, right? That we begin to essentially, you know, can fractalize, you know, in our own thinking, right? We become, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? I can't find it, I can't think of the word right now. Isolated. You get, huh? Isolated. No, no, no, not isolated, but we become so caught up in the struggle that we often, we hurt ourselves, right? Mentally and psychologically, we hurt ourselves. And we are setting too much trauma, right? From the people, right? And trying to work on areas of healing that trauma, right? Providing all these different services. And it's like a nurse in the trauma unit, right? Going to healing people day after day after day after day, you know, and seeing death, and seeing people being injured and hurt, you know? How do they survive that? They have to go back and they have to go to retreat, you know what I mean? To decompress or create a time. They say anything for us in the movement is a struggle, right? There's a point in time where we have to take a retreat, have to go back and decompress, you know? Restrict them to heal, all right? And then go back into the fray again. What does that look like for you? Because something that I've, like you said, we all struggle with it, but it's also something that I've found like motivated from watching you is you have a certain joy and optimism as someone who's witnessed some of the most heinous acts that this country can impose on to our people. Like, what do you do for healing? And to recharge. Mm-hmm, all right, poetry. All right, so I'm gonna put my books in my dorm, all right?  And I go inside myself, all right? And I just let it come out in poetic form, you know what I mean? I'm gonna release. It's also, I pray, all right? I make my prayers, bro, you know what I'm saying? I believe in the divine, all right? I believe in the power of prayer. And that's my soul, all right? And so I do that, all right? Let me tell you a story. I was like in old Queens, all right? And it was four of us in a whole tier, just four, right? In New York City, that was in 1972. And the four of us was Max Sanford, Grapp Brown, myself, and a guy named Collins. He was just a notorious bank robber. And at the time, I thought of myself being, I'm a black communist, man, you know what I'm saying? I remember some of my interview. I'm a Marxist-Munnianist, all that religion, you don't talk to me about religion. I'm gonna hear none of that, none of that. I'm gonna hear none of that, all right? I was a dialyctic historical materialist, period. And that's how I think it's beside it, I'll swear it. And so Max Sanford, and Max Sanford was the leader of Ram, revolutionary action movement, okay? And you know who Grapp Brown was, right? Jamil O'Ameen. You're Grapp Brown, right? And I used to see these two guys, they'd get up in the morning and do their prayers, five times a day doing their prayers. Max Sanford became Muhammad Ahmed, and Grapp Brown became Jamil Alameen, Abdul Alameen, all right? And I used to be a dialyctic man, you know what I'm saying? I used to be praying and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And for about six months, I argued with him about who's who's who I did. I had read a book called Anti-During, right, by Frederick Ingalls. And it was dealing with questions of metaphysics, the metaphysical world, right? Metaphysics means other than physical, okay? And he basically, he made the point of arguing towards materialism, that we live in a materialistic world, right? And materialism. And so that was my position in regards to these issues of spirituality, right? Now, keep in mind two things, right? One, I was baptized as a Catholic, right? I was baptized by my mom's, you know, as a baby, right? I went to a Catholic school for about five years. We shared that in common. Yeah, right? And, but I rejected it, right? Because I can't believe it's Trinity thing, you know? That they believe in, you know? And they just didn't fit right with me, you know? Logic didn't fit right for me. And so making that kind of argument with Muhammad Ahmed and Jamil Ademine, right? We came to one conclusion. And basically we had what are called a Faustian compromise, right? And we don't compromise. And one thing that as a scientist, in my thinking, one thing that could not get rid of the fact that energy never dies. Physicians will tell you the energy transmute and transform, energy never dies. So this thing, this energy that we call life, right? This spark of where it is, we call life this energy, right? If it doesn't die, then where does it go? After it leaves this body. This physical entity disappeared. What happened to this energy? They just dissipate into the ethers and disappear. And if it does so, does it take consciousness with it, right? Because nothing that we have not yet really defined is the issue of consciousness. Some people say, social scientists will say, consciousness comes from your social environment, right? But then the question then is, if a baby was put in a closet and a door, for all his life, would they have a consciousness? There are no other social experiences, right? That they can't relate upon, right? Would they have consciousness? And my conclusion, my thinking is that it would. It would be thinking upon themselves and the world that it is in, in that closet, right? But most of them, anything else, it would be thinking upon themselves, okay? And so if energy never dies, then the Faustian color mines is that energy never dies and there is not a heaven or an afterlife, right? And you don't lose nothing, okay? But then if there is an afterlife and then you're not adhering to the criteria from which that afterlife allegedly says, this is how you're supposed to live, then you lose everything going forward after this incarnation. So the question then to me is that when a baby is in the womb, right? Does it know about the world outside of the womb, right? And then it's a possibility that this world is a womb for the next world. Stay with me now, all right? Because there's a separation between, there's a barrier between one form of existence to the next form of existence, all right? Let's go from the development. And so for me, in that understanding of science, scientifically, I hear it's my best, right? That perhaps there is something beyond this incarnation, right? That I cannot accept that this is the end, be all and end all, right? If in fact, energy transmutes and transforms, perhaps it takes consciousness with you, with it, right? And then there is something for you going through the next evolutionary development of our quote unquote existence. And on the basis of that understanding, we try to be scientific, all right? Try to be a materialist, all right? I had to come to the conclusion, I had to come to the conclusion that perhaps there might be something else behind after this incarnation. And therefore I'm here to my best, as it is. And that there are some un- phenomenons that we have yet really to tie into, really, really define in regards to what's going on in our existence in our world, that will indicate that there may be something beyond this here.  I say, yeah, man, I'm a good person, man.  You can still do the same thing you're doing anyway. But you're hedging your bets for the year after. That makes sense to me, right? And if it ain't no year after, then you ain't lost nothing. But for this, you lost everything. Going forward, going to the religion, going to the doctrine of the religion, all right? All right, so there's some other experiences that I've had that led me to some ideas, some inkling that there's more to this existence than this present incarnation, you know?  So, and that's the reason why. And also, historically, particularly in the United States, all of the major leaders of our movement, they're believing in God. Some form of spirituality. Some form of spirituality. From the Reverend Nat Turner, to Malcolm X, to Martin Luther King, then Mark Vessin, Gabriel Prosser, all the way up, right? Each of them believe in the divine. They may be a different divine, you know, in name, but they believe in something of a higher being, a higher self, a higher consciousness, all right? And so that is another experience of us in this country that we have been holding on to. Unfortunately, it's been bastardized because of where it's been talked to us in our oppression, all right? That everything's gonna be good in the by and by, as an example, all right?   That's bull. Well, that ain't what this thing is about, all right? You can have freedom here too. Okay. And then do it after, all right? And lastly, that was important to me in terms of clad, I had to ask that you melt out of me and say, listen, man, if I do this here, that means that I got to be like them Christians, you know, and you slap them on the cheek and have to turn the other cheek to get slapped again. He said, no, he said, no, no, no, no, that's not. That's not, brother, not right here, man. Yeah, that's not what this is about, because in the book it says fight, fight to a moat and oppression wherever you may find it, right? That's quote in the Quran, write to moat and oppression wherever you may find it. And to moat and oppression is worse than slaughter. Those are quotes in the Quran, right? The to moat and oppression is worse than slaughter. When you oppress somebody, you take away their human dignity, that's worse than just killing them, right? When you make a person a slave, that's worse than just killing them. So fight to a moat and oppression wherever you may find it, okay? And that's where you restore your own humanity, your own humanity, but recognizing that you're a part of someone else's freedom. Yeah, 1000%. And I realized for myself over the years, like a lot of the people I've looked up to, like Malcolm, yourself and my OG, Amir, a lot of them have been black Muslims. My partner Amir, he was putting me on, like a lot of black folks who came, who were captured and taken here from the continent to America, they were Muslim. Even in the church, they were writing messages from the Quran in the church as they were forced to build the church. They was in there saying, we're praying for Christ, whatever, lying to the Tamassa and was actually praying to Allah. So there's a deep black Muslim history in this country to have. There's two trends that has been evolved throughout the diaspora. And that's the religion of Islam and traditional Yeruba tradition, right? Two major ones that consistently come from all of Africa and been integrated in one way or another in the religious or the belief system in here in the United States, you know? The Yeruba religion and also the Islamic tradition, all right? And where the Yerubas had taken the saints of the Christian saints and evolved them into their own iconology of the course of the religion, all right? And so those traditions come from North East Africa and Africa are the mainstays that maintains our spiritual foundation, right? In this struggle. Yeah, will that answer your question? Yeah, that was perfect. I got one last question. And it came up in our class the other day. But you mentioned, me and Blake be just in the house talking about this shit, 34-7 stressed out. But trying to find that balance between understanding that it's a marathon but there are actions that we need to be taking every day so that we do, in fact, to do what you say, like leave something behind for the next generation and that we do right by our elders like yourself and what y'all have left for us in building on that.  And so I wanted, could you elaborate on how we supposed to be running a marathon but we also have these crucial years ahead of us where we got to make some real strides in order to submit our chances that this continued marathon? Yeah, especially to, you know, with the rise of Trump and the violence from his supporters and his white militias and these neo-Confederates, yeah. Well, all right. Part of this entire, not understanding, right? In Garza history, you can remember, now history is the foundation for what you have to move forward. You don't know the history, no where you been, yeah, you don't know where you need to go. Okay, so we have to understand history. And so in 1918, when they had the pandemic, the flu, Spanish flu, then across the country, right? The pandemic and after the pandemic, 1990, from 1919 to 1925, right? White folks were crazy, right? There was the red summer, where it's killing black people from the Illinois down to 1925, the destruction of Tulsa, right? And so we find similarly today, that came in same history, right? Where after the pandemic, and part of the process of the pandemic, right? White folks, that's crazy again, right? And so is history repeating itself? Some might say yes, okay? What they did and three weeks ago, four weeks ago, and the Capitol was telling the state of this country, the state of this union, LS union, right? 70,000, 70 million people voted for Trump as a hero, white supremacists, okay? And I would imagine there's probably another 30 million who are silent, silent supporters with this idea of a white supremacy. And so I don't see, with that understanding with this history of this country, I don't see it going away, right? Go back to history, again, go back to Civil War, and the surrender of the Confederates. That surrender was not a defeat. The Confederates were never defeated, all right? They were dismantled as a military force. The haze till the compromise gave them an opportunity to resurrect, all right? I believe in 1940, 20,000 transmen in addressing the regalia, Washington, Washington, Washington, Washington, all right? Had a ticket pick, a parade for Washington D.C. 20,000 transmen. That informs today, what we saw what happened in North Carolina or South Carolina, where it's just Ohio was killed, a young one was murdered. Right, it ran over by the car, remember? Charleston a couple of years ago, wasn't that Charleston? Yeah, Charleston, yeah, Charleston, okay, cool Charleston. And then they had those white folks who was marching camera, the Jews never replace us, and et cetera, right? They had a big marching ticket, the candles and things of that nature. So it's been a process by which they have trying to resurrect themselves, resurrect the Confederate, resurrect the South. And hold that in just position to our migrating back to the South.  A book in the just region came out of the devil, you know, by the name of Charles Blow, right? And I don't agree with everything that's this analysis, and you wanna see that? He has made the petition that Black people should return back to the South, right? And be re-empowered by numbers, by numbers. So as we move forward, my thinking, the possibility, and I'm not, I can't predict, right? The possibility exists being a dielectric store of materialism, using the principle of dielectric store of materialism, right? We can make certain equations, formulas, as social scientists, to see the possibilities that there's gonna be a major uproar in this country in a few more years, right? Well, this country will be torn apart. That's a possibility. So if we put that in the possibility category, right? Then what do we do in terms of addressing that issue of that possibility? And that's usually why it's so important, in my thinking, that we first have to prepare ourselves for liberation of the independence, emancipation, abolitionist and liberation, all right? And so that's usually why I said that I don't think in the next 25 years that we're gonna have another resurgence, another resurgence that'll be cataclysmic in this country. And we need to be prepared for that, okay? And so the 70 million plus, they ain't going away, to the other way folks, who are the sisters and brothers and aunties and uncles and grandfathers and grandmothers of the 70 million, they ain't addressing it.  So white folks got to get busy with other white folks and straighten that out that they won't keep this country, all right? And they can't blame us, black folks and people of color for what's happened in this country. They can only blame themselves, all right? And as far as I can see right now, and I'm an optimist, I'm the optimist, I ain't the pessimist, I'm the optimist in this matter, all right? And from the understanding of dialectics, understanding the principle of social sciences, all right? If these matters is not addressed upfront and straight up, and turn them 70 million plus, and this guy, Trump, still being able to rally his troops, cause he's an ego maniac, my naioko monster, now put it that way, all right? That he's gonna be part and parcel of the direction of this country. If he can't control it, he gonna destroy it.   We got to get out the way, we got to get out the way.  So come and mess with me, don't mess with us, all right? You're about your business, all right?  And it's when you try to impose your white supremacist over on me, I will defend myself. Well, I have an inherent right to self-preservation. Everybody does. It's our human right. Human right.  Yeah. Okay, so you understand my point, right? Yeah. Play rational and logical. Yeah. All right? And if you understand the science, you understand history, yeah, we also understand that there's issues there that can be, and they're planning for it.    Yeah.  And... That's why we gotta be future focused, huh? Future focused, my brother. Future focused, you know? Yes, we have to be future focused, you know what I mean? We can't dwell in the past, we can't... I can't, I can't dwell in the here and now. You know what I'm saying? We gotta be careful for what's coming up in the future. So we have to be future focused, you know? We have to think our mind and our thinking in terms of what we are doing, that's going to preserve our lives today. So we have something to give to our babies tomorrow, all right? We gotta be future focused. And we got to build towards our own liberation, our own independence, all right? Decolonization, right? And you decolonize our mind, so you decolonize our practice, all right? So that's the deal, bro. Appreciate you. It's so amazing to have this conversation. Yeah, I like it. Words can't even describe it. You feel me?  And for you to be on here, it's a blessing, man. Thank you, cuz. Appreciate you and I love you, man. I love you too, my brother. Love you too, Devin, I see. Yeah, I love you too, man. Yeah, I know, I love and appreciate you. I can't say it enough. And I think oftentimes I think about the impact that you've had on me as an organizer, but now I'm starting to really understand the impact that you're having on me as a human being. And I thank you for leaving, guided principles and actions for us to follow. And I think, you know, this year, what you only have me at home, like the last like five or six months, I think this is just but a small piece of the impact that we're gonna have on folks, whether it's the podcast, the class that you're doing, you know, we're gonna be able to do a lot of meaningful and impactful work in the name of liberation and unification. So I wanna just thank you again. But let me, let me, maybe one more, one more point. One more, let me just raise one more issue. I got a bunch of issues, but let me just raise one more. It's a little more. Here, I'm in Rochester and I'm organized for citizen action. Right, it's a statewide organization here in Rochester. Do some good work and deal with the issues of oppression and questions of white supremacy and those kind of things in the state. A lot of the work is done through lobbying and trying to get the laws changed. Remember the laws is the things that make most people to do the thing that they do in their behavior, right? We talked about policing today, but policing is based upon law, okay? And the law is what protects the police and the police is fulfilling the obligations they have towards maintaining the law. I come from, I'm gonna get back from child slavery to where the police actually came into existence as slave patrols to today and they still operating them same concepts and principles. Right, no law, but then was that they captured the slaves and put the slaves away, put them back in their place and they ought to. And basically that's what the police is doing today. That's how they operate, right? Based on that history. At any rate, what I would like for us to do, and I'm just making this proposal, right? I'm trying to make this proposal here in Rochester. Rochester is a school district. It's one of the worst, I think the worst, the fifth worst school district in the state of New York, right? The babies here, the young people here, the school system is tow up, tow up from the floor, right? And we need to figure out a new ways how to change that. Here you have in Rochester the majority of the students are black and Hispanic, right? Majority of teachers, 80% of the teachers are white women, right? I think there's another three or four or 5% of white men. All of these people have been teaching black babies, black and brown babies, right? And that's a problem, right? There's a problem of identity, there's a problem in the way they are being taught. In essence, in certain instances was innate or over the issues of white skin privilege, it seeps into the processes of teaching these kids, teaching these babies. And it's no wonder why they're not wanting to go to school and dealing with the issues of school. And so, and then there's the myriad of other issues that these kids trying to bring into the school building, you know, whether it be a question of game violence, drugs, domestic violence, food deserts, poverty, homelessness, all these issues they've been brought into the school building as they're trying to learn. And so my thinking is that, let's take the African proverb. Remember man, I don't think it's an African, right? So let's take the African proverb of it takes a village to raise a child, right? That's the African proverb. If it takes a village to raise a child and we have these buildings embedded in these communities, right? We call it building, I'm talking these school buildings, these edifices, better in these communities. Well, let's change, let's why not change the paradigm of what school is being used, these buildings are being used. If it takes a village to raise a child, why not we take these buildings and turn them into the village, right? Let's take these buildings and have every resource that these kids need to learn in these buildings since they're already embedded in the community, right? So we need to change our paradigm the way we teach across the country, right? But physically here in Rochester, right? And so where we teach the A, B and Cs and the one, twos and threes, right? We also need to teach healthcare, right? Restore to justice, ethnic studies, issues dealing with homelessness, right? Things that the Black Panther Party originally started feeding these babies, nutrition, proper nutrition, right? And when you take these resources, all these resources that are available and put them in these buildings, that's already better in the community. And therefore a kid would come to school knowing that these resources are there for them, right? Beyond the ABCs and the one, twos and threes, right? He'd get everything else that he needs to be a whole human being, not a fracture of a human being that society has already created. And that's the way we stop the prison, we stop the school to prison pipeline, right? That's my main focus. That's my main focus. I don't want to see these babies, these kids who are in the penitentiary, right? Let's stop that. And we can start it by creating a new paradigm of educating these kids, all right? And making these buildings that village. And if we can do that, we'll change this whole structure. We'll change this whole foundation. And we make education real. And not trying to teach people to become a cogwheel in the capitalist system. Community control of education, huh? There you go. That's what we need. That's what we need. The colonization, the colonization program, bro. All right? These edifices there, let's take control of these kids. Let's take control of these edifices and make them function the way it's supposed to function for our babies. Yep. Most things we need to be doing here. People's programs gotta start moving. Without question. What was that? All right, so I'll get at y'all. Yep, thank you. I'll do something with that. I'll do something with that. You just did a virtual drop mic, all right, y'all? Y'all take that and go do something. Y'all figure it out. Y'all figure it out. We are our own writers. That's what I'm trying to do here, bro. You know what I mean? That's what I'm trying to do right, Chester. So yeah, I figure you get done, you know? Yeah, it's needed, you know? It's needed. We need to make a new paradigm in terms of teaching. Decolonization needs to build a new edifice, a new way of thinking in terms of teaching. We need to bring that deletion together to raise these babies, man, raise these children. They're extremely important. The next generation has to take the strength to the next level. Yep.