So today, we are very pleased to welcome our first keynote speaker, Dr. Victoria Nembaware, who is joining us all the way from South Africa. Vicky is the project manager for the Sickle Cell Africa Data Coordinating Centre, where she directs research capacity development and training. Vicky is particularly involved in study design, data management planning, and big data analytics, and as well as ontology development, all applied to the research of Sickle Cell disease. So Vicky carried her doctoral studies in bioinformatics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa and was also a visiting postdoc at Stanford University. She had different positions in the public health sector, including information and communication technology, monitoring and evaluation, as well as teaching. For example, one of the things she did was developing a mobile phone app to engage and educate the public on her identity and health in Africa. So today, Vicky will share with us her experiences in designing and implementing life-scale policy-driven efforts to combat sickle cell disease in the sub-Saharan region. And she will tell us about the focus and strategy of her Institute, which was founded in 2017, so rather recently. Yeah, we are really looking forward to her talk, where we'll listen about delivering results when you are in a resource-constrained healthcare facilities and how the African genetic diversity impacts disease outcomes. Thank you very much for having me. It's a great privilege to present this seminar on behalf of the Sickle Africa Data Coordinating Centre, or SADAC. We are based at the University of Cape Town in South Africa. It's actually winter, so the weather is similar to what's on the photograph. We are supported by the University of Cape Town Clinical Research Centre and by ASHRAE BINET. Our centre, which I'll call SADAC going forward, is led by Professor Ambrose Wonkham, who's a medical geneticist with a background in managing sickle cell patients for many years. He's supported in this leadership role by Professor Nicola Mouda. Our team is multidisciplinary, with lots of people coming from a diverse range of backgrounds, including bioinformatics, LC, lab and biorepository management, mathematical modelling, epidemiology, and so on. A very quick overview of my talk, I'll give a little bit of background on sickle cell disease. Most of you might be familiar with this disease, as it's a classical example, which is included in most high school textbooks, and I hope to highlight with this talk the reality on the ground, far from the textbook experiences you might have had. I will discuss a little bit about the SADAC mission and vision and how we build partnerships and also about the work we do in building a registry or LC work, training and research. Sickle cell disease is actually a group of blood disorders, with the most common one being sickle cell anemia, which is caused by a single nucleotide polymorphism, which causes no more blood red cells to become sickle celled in shape, which then distorts the ability to transport oxygen around the body, and it also results in clogging, or these sickle cell shaped cells clogging the blood vessels, which can lead to a range of symptoms and complications. These symptoms and complications, we don't still understand them because they can range from mild to severe and chronic. Unfortunately, our own African beliefs and cultures can distort our understanding of the disease. In addition, most of our healthcare workers are ill-equipped or ill-educated to actually care for the complications that people have. When my oldest daughter was three years old, friends introduced us to another professional young couple with another three-year-old daughter, but unfortunately this daughter was very, this little girl was very lonely because no one in their circles wanted to play with her. She had a tendency of screaming uncontrollably, you know, uncontrollable for hours on end. Her eyes would turn yellowish, her hands would swell every now and again, and her feet, she got infections very easily, she got tired very easily, she couldn't play that well. So this young couple had really basically given up time to socialize, so we got in touch with them and our kids started to play. We learned later on that this young couple had given up taking the child to the emergency centers here in Cape Town, South Africa, because the healthcare workers could never seem to make a really meaningful diagnosis of the child. The neighbors had first suspected child abuse, and then eventually they concluded that this child was bewitched or possessed by some spirit, and unfortunately this young couple was actually beginning to believe this, believe from the neighbors. And this is kind of the scenario which is in Africa, and these are young professionals, not more of people who have lower education and lower literacy levels. The prevalence of sickle cell disease is very frequent in Africa. Africa contributes more than 75% of the life births of sickle cell, and it is estimated that over 300 babies are born with sickle cell globally every year. And basically the reason why there is such high prevalence in Africa is because of malaria, people who inherit the mutation or are carriers of the mutation are more resistant to malaria. And for a long time sickle cell was a neglected disease globally. No one cared about it, but unfortunately a group of advocates from Africa made of politicians of clinicians and healthcare workers all got together and lobbied the United Nations and in 2008 they were successful in that sickle cell disease became recognized as a public health problem. And as you can see on this red map, although sickle cell disease was discovered in 1910, it was only more than 80 years later that the first drug was FDA approved to be used for sickle cell disease. And this drug was even a repurposed drug, it hadn't been developed specifically for sickle cell disease. SADEC was actually initiated in 2017, and we're hoping that with this coordinated effort we'll be able to contribute or facilitate the contribution of new drug therapies that can improve the quality of life of sickle cell patients and even increase their lifespan. We've been very well accepted resource for increasing research and understanding diseases as registries. And unfortunately there isn't a registry in most of the hard heat regions of sickle cell disease. On this map in 2017 we did a very informal quick scan of what are the registries out there on sickle cell disease. We realized that if you see on the map the red parts mark the really hard heat sickle cell regions, and the blue dots are the registries, and as you can see there is a disconnect of registries and the hardest heat regions. So there is an urgent need to really develop sickle cell registries and develop long chewed nose studies. So SADEC as mentioned previously is really hoping and working towards building research capacity in sickle cell disease so that we can understand this disease better and address it better and also increasing healthcare capacity through coordination of sickle cell stakeholders across the globe and especially in sub-Saharan Africa. We also are strengthening research training, LC, ethical, legal, social implications, and healthcare. And for coordination we are specifically funded by the National Institute of Health, USA, to support SPARCO, which is the Sickle Pan-African Research Consortium. This consortium is headed by Professor Julie McCunney who is based in Tanzania. And the SPARCO sites are linked to hospitals or healthcare facilities where they specialize mainly in sickle cell disease. And these sites are based in Ghana, Nigeria, and Tanzania, some of the hardest heat countries by sickle cell disease. Together SADEC and SPARCO we form what we call the Sickle in Africa Consortium. In addition to supporting SPARCO we also build networks and partnerships with others amongst other sickle cell disease stakeholders, clinicians and researchers spread across 21 countries in Africa and also we've got researchers from our network who are based in Brazil, Jamaica, the U.S. and U.K. and we're hoping that Asia will join this network soon. And this loose connection of researchers in sickle cell disease is called the Sickle Cell Pan-African Network and we created a sickle cell disease ontology working group out of the Sickle in Africa Consortium and SPARCO. And based on this network we managed to create a community supported sickle cell disease ontology and this ontology is based around the roots of hemoglobinopathies and this disease ontology actually addresses different sections of the different issues and areas of the disease itself from quality of life and care to research to diagnostics to therapeutics. We have translated this ontology into French and we're currently translating, finalized translating into Portuguese and also we have developed a layman's version of the ontology for patients to empower patients about their own health. As most of you might have noticed, the title is Sickle Cell Disease of this talk also known as a banana cell and one of the key deliverable of our ontology which we're very proud of is that this ontology has got terms and descriptions that do not exist in other ontologies and I just highlighted there with one example, sickle cell disease was coined in 1910 out of an African context. Most people don't even know what a sickle is so most of the clinicians especially Ambrose advocated that we create another synonym for sickle cell which is banana cell disease. It makes it easier for researchers, for healthcare workers to explain what sickle cell disease is to other African patients or stakeholders. For the registry itself we have over 10,000 patients who have been recruited into our registry because of the high mortality rate and the reduced lifespan of sickle cell disease most of our registry participants are children. We're working hard towards making this registry fair starting internally while we address data sharing and governance issues and also for us to mine the data efficiently before we make it available to the general research community. So we've got a dashboard and a curable database in house and on this graph you can actually see that Nigeria is contributing the largest number of sickle cell disease because it actually has a higher prevalence or the highest, one of the highest on the continent. Because our team is made up of data analysts and people who've got lots of experience analyzing data this was a really exciting opportunity for the data analyst in our team to be involved in addressing data quality issues which take up a lot of our time when we use publicly available data sets. So for this aspect we did a lot of work together with the consortium of developing data standards and data elements which are harmonized across the sites and we agreed on a core data set of 66 elements which each site collects and they're free to collect anything else but these core data elements which are key to understanding sickle cell are being collected the same across the sites that we're working with. Again to emphasize data quality assurance we also have data quality certificates when the sites send data to our data coordinating center we check it thoroughly for quality and we send it back again to the sites to correct whenever we've got any issues and this is something that we do on a regular basis whenever data is shared is copied across as we are custodians of the data and also are responsible for the data quality. In terms of data collection most of the sites we work with or some of them were using paper based data collection and paper based has got many problems if a fire comes you know your data will all be gone so we moved and are promoting a tablet based data collection where most of our sites do not have stable internet connectivity so they collect their data using tablets offline and whenever they've got connectivity it's uploaded onto servers and we're using the red cap system for this data collection and we also do site visits to actually make sure that data is being collected in an ethical way and in a standardized manner and in the ethos of building capacity we also pressure servers for each site to make sure that this data is being backed up and we don't have any data losses and also to make data transferable easier to transfer to the SADAC center. For the ethical, legal and social implications we've had a lot of heated debates about these issues and we cannot say we've addressed all the issues around data sharing and data governance but we did try to implement and address a lot of these ethical issues right at the beginning so before the data collection started we brought all the stakeholders together and we tried to look at each and every aspect that we could think of and to address it as much as possible. For instance we actually assessed ethical, legal, any restrictions that could hinder data sharing in the future at an institutional level and at a national level for each country. We assessed consent forms that were being used by each site which ended up making us actually develop templates together with the sites which would promote data sharing later on. We're still grappling with other issues and are now designing research studies around this ascent. Most of our participants are children so they really understand the consent. Can we develop graphics or cartoons for them to understand better? Benefit sharing. How are we going to share any new discoveries that come out of this data with the participants, with the rest of the stakeholders, data access committees who's going to govern this data efficiently. Right now SADAC is trying as best as we can but do we need an external board, data security issues. There are so many issues that we're still trying to address and we are doing this with patients as partners which is really one of the ethos of the work that we do. We work collaboratively with partners. We've got patient representatives from each of the four countries that we work in. From South Africa we've got Paul, Arafa from Tanzania and Adebole who's 61 years old and a sickle cell disease patient which is fantastic and she's from Nigeria and we also have Emmanuel from Ghana. We also support their advocacy work. I've just highlighted there one of the president for the sickle South Africa support group, Gravages, who was featured in a nature paper recently due to some links we made for him. We also create public engagement material and we're continually trying to improve this material. We've got effect sheets explaining what sickle cell disease is, hoping that that will reach far. We celebrate World Sickle Cell Day which is coming up very soon on the 19th of June. This year we've developed a video explaining our work and also we plan on sharing aggregated data as a way of feeding back our progress to the patients because I'm sure they would like to know what we've been doing with the data we've been collecting. In terms of training, we also really focus on competency or skills-based training approach. The one training we've implemented and has been incrementally going more intensive, getting more intensive and more complex, more advanced is data capturing and data management because our training for the registry is really centered around the data management cycle. We have now reached out to other people developing data stewardship training so that we can finalize the training we've got. We've got a standard operating procedure platform because you can create standard operating procedures to facilitate standardization of processes and of data across the size but how can you assess that people are actually reading and taking note of these soaps and following them. We've developed a platform which then assesses comprehension of all our site members and we are now ready to pilot and assess how effective that will be. We also have training that we have developed. Most of this training and system administration and also manuscript development so that we can promote first and last author publications from our consortia. Most of the training material that I've described here is currently being finalized and will be implemented towards the end of this year but the data management and capturing is something that we do continuously during site visits and in workshop and its sites and one of our flagship training we are really proud of is the big data analytics. This is really aimed at equipping the sites to analyze their own data both epidemiological data and also genomic data that they are starting to produce from their patients and one other thing is we strategically recruited data managers into the big data analytics course and this was to actually promote the data managers to appreciate the importance of data quality and what better way it is to actually promote data quality by making them carry their own water then they will learn that the value of each of the drop the value of each data element and the quality is really important for data quality and we're hoping to also assess the impact of this pilot based on real data from the data quality and we're hoping that the data quality will improve substantially now that the data managers have got some data analysis skills. In terms of healthcare our team contributes heavily to the African Genomic Medicine Training Initiative which is really geared at upskilling nurses in understanding genomics and and and just how to address that in the healthcare and during this training as well as our personal experiences we have observed that sickle cell is really important for us to develop a separate module which specializes mainly on sickle we've got a clinician who's now focusing on on just creating that module and we hope to to actually implement that this year as well. In addition we look backwards how can we promote uptake of careers how can you promote interest in understanding in genomics and in life sciences in general and we do this through the MGen Africa platform where we provide high school learners from disadvantaged areas with role models from our team and our networks and collaborators and we also have online quizzes which then happen physically once a year here in a very huge quiz competition where there are big prices we we've been doing this with the Department of Education in Cape Town for this for for a few districts and we're hoping that this will be scaled up to other countries there are already two countries that are very interested in taking this model to inspire the young upcoming and future researchers. In terms of healthcare Sparkle our sister consortia has developed standards of care guidelines which most of our training for healthcare workers will be based on and what's fantastic about these healthcare guidelines they've just not been adopted from elsewhere they've been adapted for the resource limited setting for example for instances where exchange transfusion would be ideal they recommend top-up transfusion because that's what's available and for new born screening there are some places where there isn't a new born screening or you've run out of tests to test whether a baby is has got sickle cell they recommend that you actually treat the little baby with folic acid and penicillin prophylaxis until you can perform a screening test in the near future or when the resources become available we're also using the sickle cell disease ontology as a framework to design applications which can help healthcare workers with better diagnosis and better care for the patients and also some of these applications are mobile phone based one is almost complete for active surveillance of pain so that we understand pain better if we've got live data coming from from from the patients because sometimes a patient goes into a crisis because the temperature has changed are the other things that trigger pain crisis these are the things we would like to collect and it will also enhance the data in our registry the potential of impact of this research is what's exciting the team most a lot amongst other things for example one of the most cited paper which I've already cited which estimated over 300 live birds of sickle cell disease in globally is based on mathematical modeling we're hoping with data from this consortium we'll be able to provide concrete data and even better estimates of the prevalence of sickle cell disease we'll be better able to understand why there is so much variability in in in the manifestation of these diseases different people and different haplotypes and different sickle cell diseases we're also hoping to contribute make our small contribution to increasing the african genomic data that's available um in public databases and to promote retrospective data analysis um because there's a lot of data that exists in individual sites using the ontology we are now we've already piloted harmonizing existing data can the sickle cell disease ontology be used as a framework for for developing other genetic disease ontologies we've already done so or proved um that is possible by developing the hearing impairment ontology based on this framework in addition um a question that we're grappling with and trying to address could sickle cell be disease be could it facilitate um precision medicine uh through multi-omics data harmonization and integration for the machine learning algorithms based on um how this data can be brought together and be harmonized using the sickle cell disease um ontology i'd like to thank the SADEC team and the entire SPACO team and our initially BI and funders um that's our website and our our um Twitter handle uh thank you so much for this opportunity thank you once again and welcome questions great thank you very much Vicki for that great talk um it looks like you were exactly on time in fact we have time for one question and I want to remind all the participants that after this um there's the meet Vicki session so uh further follow-up questions can be asked but um the top question that we have right now is coming from Anika Gabel and she's asking the question how much are the current drugs improving quality of life and are they affordable for patients unfortunately right now most of the patients are treated using folic acid and um antibiotics to try and limit infections um there's also hydroxyl but it's not accessible to everyone uh most countries patients have to purchase um in Ghana um uh the site in Ghana has managed to partner with Novartis and the government to try and improve access to hydroxyl for for their patients and this is a model that we're hoping can be implemented throughout Africa and we're hoping it will increase the quality of life and uh probably also um reduce the mortality rates uh but yes um we're hoping maybe this work would lead to better in the long run more affordable drugs um yeah great question all right well thank you for that answer I think now we'll um end this session and go to the meet the speaker session and there's a number of other questions that I've been collecting so we can continue there so we'd like to thank you again for the great talk and starting off sub days 2020 thank you so much


with Todd being on the show for 1986, we decided to invite him back for 1987. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. We're happy to have Todd LaTorre, Queen's Reich lead singer here with us again today to explore. What's going on here, Alan? What's going on here? We've got a little promo happening. What's going on here, latest album? Pick it up. There it is. There it is. Pick it up. Thank you.  We'll see. We'll see how it goes.  I think it's the year of the comebacks. And at the same time, I think the cracks were starting to show. There was some stuff that was just kind of like treading water, nothing too innovative. If it worked the first four times, it should work the fifth time. So we're interested to see the list. There's some reasons why some fantastic albums behind me may not have made the list. And again, many bad, some bads were starting to break up.  And that's just a few examples of we're starting to see, for me, the cracks are starting to show in 87 a little bit. So I agree with you, Alan. It's what we had was hair metal moving in one direction and thrash in the other direction.  Would you agree? Yeah. Yeah, I think I think our list covers all of those items generally. I think big business that we're starting to see dollar signs and they were kind of influencing, you know, signing docking generation five by this point. So so real quick, I have my I have my phone on up here so I can see people commenting and chiming in. So thank you to everyone for doing that. Somebody's asking what I'm eating. I tell you, I'm eating real feta that's imported from Greece. And so last time I was I was going to the refrigerator and I have all my snacks and everything right here. So I don't have to leave and you're right. I only only the most observant viewers are found on the metal voice. So they picked up on that right away. And now we are ready when you are Jim. Okay, so as you guys can see, I've also have the pictures. It's gonna be some PowerPoints here with the album. So let's start with the number 10. You ready? I'm just gonna say this is Alan's pick right off the bat. Okay, four years in the making. Four years in the making. I'm going anybody that's been watching the show Anvil, Strength of Steel. We know we try to get Anvil into every show that we do. But this one's with Samarit here, getting burned by the big boys losing focus and trying to become the next Bond Jovey, Lips redirects the band to back to their classic sound. And I think the guitar solos, the drummies and even the lyrics are some of the strongest they've ever done in their career. That's saying something for a band that's been around since 79, right? So again, for me, it's a strong album and four years in the making. And when it came out, I think I bought it within the first week of it coming out. So that's how important it was for me to pick up that album after four-year hiatus. It's definitely a metal looking classic. It's got that look too, doesn't it? Following the, of course, Strength of Steel, Metal on Metal, Forge of the Fire, their tradition. And they actually got a video. Documentary. Not to rain on the parade, but I didn't know who they were until that documentary came out. A lot of people didn't know who they were until that documentary came out. Okay, but Todd, did you think did you think they were a real band or is like a spinal tap documentary, a mockumentary? No, I thought it was a legit band that just didn't get their fair share. Some guys thought they were actors. No, I thought they were, I mean, the passion, when you watch that thing and they're playing these dives and they still go in with every bit of heart and soul into those performances. It's like, they're obviously doing it for the love of it and the passion of it. And I just thought that was so cool. And then we played festivals and I had seen them at catering and like they were on the same billing or whatever, you know, the big festivals in Europe. And I don't think I ever met them. I think I met the singer once for like a second. But you know, I really learned to appreciate them as people and like their passion to do what they what they love doing, which is playing and writing music. So that that documentary opened me up to a band that I had no idea was on the rise and doing that big stadium show with Metallica and everything else. First time I saw Anvil, they were opening up for Aaron Maiden on the Number of the Beast tour.  And then people are just grasping onto them. And anyways, this album, Strength of the Steel, it is a surprise for me, Alan, because I kind of like shy away from sort of that mid catalog of Anvil. I love the later stuff and I love the early stuff. Even though this is their fourth album, I love that. I love the hard rock and guitars and the drums. And it's a really cool album, you know, that's why I wanted I wanted to talk to Todd, put on your drumming hat now, you're singing hat, your drumming hat. He's a great drummer. He's an awesome, he's an awesome drummer. I wholeheartedly agree. One of my favorites of all times for sure. Of course, that's the back cover that really threw everybody off with the what appears to be a potbelly here and the puffy, puffy hair. They said, that's not the Anvil. We know. Where's the drummer on there? Rob Reiner. Rob. Oh, there he is. Looking totally so young, man. Yeah.   But I did, you know, yeah, awesome drummer. All right, let's move on. Yeah. All right. Now, this is so right before the show, I talked to Todd about this. So Alan, you're not a privy to this. This was version 7.2. I go, I want Manowar. But then Todd goes back for the attack is one of my favorite albums. So I go, okay, let's just cheat here a little bit. Number nine is Dawkin back for the attack. I know Alan, you wanted back for the attack on there. Got it right here. I love that. That's my favorite. Todd, you could speak to back to the attack and I'll speak to Manowar. Sure.  We can do what we want. I think I mean, that's that's my go to Dawkin record. And I have all the albums. I love Dawkin. One of my all time favorite bands. The other day I was out doing stuff in the garage and I had the whole back for the attack album on before we even had this on the list, by the way, I just always love that record. There's every song on it to me is awesome.  No, I would say I would say like, you know, under lock and key was a was a big record for them. But that's my favorite Dawkin record. And dream warrior, right? The song dream warrior. Prisoner on there. Dude, I know them all. I can play all those songs on drums. I know I know you can sing every guitar solo with your mouth. I mean, it's just so good that um, yeah, I mean, that's that's that's a it's a very noteworthy album to at least mention since I think it's one of their best selling albums. Alan, I mean, I'm not gonna argue with Todd, because it's my favorite album too.  But I was going for more of the heavier stuff and not the melodic stuff. So this album took me back to a much more heavier sound and and more more rootsy sound. And it is my favorite from the catalog as well, even though it's it's got deep, deep tracks. There's not that big hit like alone again, or, you know, a few of the other songs from the other albums. It's but every song like Todd said, it stands on its own. And it's it's really great. And again, the, you know, George Lynch's guitar, what more do you want to say? Yeah, it's a killer record. But but just so that your viewers know, yes, you need to explain the criteria, because some people will be like, that's all right. So so here's the criteria. We do what we want. First of all, we would do we want that's criteria number one, we do what we want at the end of the day. But the criteria was a very key factor as to why some of these are the way they are. Exactly. So sales, import, you look at the sales. Well, Jimmy always looks at the sales. I look as it's a mix sales. Is this a genre defining album? Right? Is this the band's go to album or breakthrough album? Right? They're known for this album. And there's also critiques choice because a lot of time there's great albums like let's say Anvil, but maybe the right manager wasn't there to push it to where it needed to go. Right? So there is that factor too. So it is because you could say, you know, the Anvil didn't meet the sales criteria, but maybe that was a breakthrough album for them. And we're going to go through some of these albums where they certainly, even though they're not my favorite from the band, they were that album that really put them up on up there and got them. And I just want to throw out another point, you're talking about criteria. Okay, guys, we're not 2021. We're 1987. So when you say, well, it's not a metal album, that's a hard rock album compared to what? Pig Anus today?  No, we're comparing it to was at the time, right? And at the time, I'm getting hungry now. Everybody who was getting lumped in together, you know, whereas, you know, KISS, who did a disco album in 79 was all of a sudden released their most metal album in 82, right? Because everybody was jumping on the bandwagon. So that's what we're comparing it to. We're trying to go back to where our headspace was in 87. And also, upon reflection, some of those albums we loved in 87, do not stand to test the time. So we're going back and revisiting some that we might have missed the first go around. So that's very well said Alan, very well said. What is metal today might not necessarily have been metal back then, but vice versa, right? Yeah. So here it is. Now I want everybody to comment. Number nine, it's back for the attack docking or Manowar fighting the world. And I kind of was leaning more towards Manowar. And I'll tell everybody why maybe it didn't sell millions of copies back then. But they did define a genre. They started this sort of, you know, hail to the Lord and all that stuff.  This is like a band to contend with, right? Maybe in the U.S. and Canada, they're not that big, but in the rest of the world, they are massive. And that album fighting the world is their breakthrough album. That's the go to when you think of Manowar, you think of that album. So tell us what you think. Manowar or docking for number nine? I'm going with docking. All right. I'm going with Manowar. I'll be the, I'm splitting it, because you guys, you guys came up with this unbeknownst to me. So I'm, I'm deciding with Todd on this. So what does everybody think Manowar or docking? Well, okay. Based on the criteria and genre defining, I would have to go with Manowar, even though I'm not a Manowar fan. I don't think that was a genre defining album for docking. It just happens to be my favorite. And that's fine too. That's fine. In that context, you know, I think Manowar had a bigger impact within the context of what we're talking about. For that reason, I'll go with, I would go with Manowar, even though to me it's, you know, not to, not to drag this part on, but look at it this way, docking sold maybe like a million copies of their album where Manowar, I don't even know if they hit a million copies today on that, on their album in the US, but I mean, Europe globally, I don't think they hit a million copies on fighting the world, but it's known as the album, right? Over the years. Right. Yeah. The back for the attack record, I don't think is the known album. It's people will go for tooth and nail or under lock and key or something like that. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why we put an earlier dock. I think it was under lock and key onto our top 10 that year because it was much more of a representative of what docking's peak was at that time. So it doesn't matter. I'm glad. I'm glad the back for the attack was on my list and just to make my top 10. I'm glad we slipped it in. Somebody is saying, you gotta agree. You have John Katsudas. Oh yeah, Johnny. Yasu. Yeah, he's saying Yasu guys. Yasu John. It must be late. All right. Okay, here we go. Number eight. Here it is. We'll let Todd do this. It's all yours. It's all yours, Todd. We're gonna sit back. Okay. Number eight.  It's all right. It's all right. Because it's not metal. It was back then. It was hair metal for sure. But one of my favorite records from this era is number eight, White Lion Pride. I love every song. Wait, Todd, wait. Okay, go ahead. I love, I mean, Vito brought his guitar. There was a lot of guys finger tapping and doing all that stuff, but he had a more, I don't know, something about his playing just poked out more. It was all those little tricks, you know, like in between the chords, he would do these cool little, little things. And I just thought it was really fun, you know, fun rock and the songs had hooks and it was melodic. And I don't know, man, it's just one of my favorite records. I still, I still love the Lady of the Valley. I mean, all the songs on that record are so good. So my cousin, and I told you guys this, my cousin was a guitarist, a really great guitarist. And back then he would play this album over and over and over again. It's because it was a guitarist, guitarist album. That's what it was. Guitars love to listen to this stuff.  And you know what? It was a sign of the times that band, that music, that style was reflected what 1987 was about. Totally. And it sold two million copies. So it hits critical critiques choice. It hits the album sales. And I guess, what else? And it's a sign of the times. The worst pairing I've ever seen was White Lion opening for ACDC and blow up your video tour. Wow, that's not fair to White Lion. I don't see the ACDC crowd like. Exactly, exactly. We were all a little bit lost. But you know, we, we appreciated weight and you know, like you said, Lady of the Valley, the songs were playing. But again, that was in 88. So this album came out in 87. So it did take a while. But when it took off, oh boy, did it take off? I think it stayed on the charts for a year actually. So. All right, so I'm going to read some comments here. Okay. Great to see a musician, I guess they're referring to Todd, not me and Alan. Yeah, well. Enjoying a conversation about music like another fan. Cheers Todd. Right on. And thanks. But I'm not the only musician here. Yeah, Alan is. There's another, there's another slap in the base. There's Alan, too. Alan, too. There's another singer on this show right now, too. Alan. Yeah. Jimmy. I have a little singing and I play a little guitar and I play keyboards. Yes. Stamatista. Oh, good, good, good. Good. Very good. Alan. He's saying stop. I mean, Jimmy, Jimmy was in a band called Truant. Well, there you go. Is this on that? He showed me a picture.  He has his cool jeans vest on and he's got kind of long hair and he's got the mic and he's doing his thing. So he understands, both these guys understand when we talk about music because, you know, they're not just listeners, but they actually play something. You didn't see Alan singing and play the bass. You never saw that picture. You never saw that picture. We taught him. I gotta show you that one. I gotta see that. Go out on top. One show here. Retire. Put the bass in the corner. That's it. That's it. All right. We're going to number seven. Number seven. Oh, I'll let Todd speak to this. I know he's a big fan. There it is. Savatash. Coming from Florida, right? Yeah. All the Mountain King. And I, yeah, I'm friends with those guys. And I mean, that, that's such a good album.    They're an amazing band. John Oliva is a great songwriter. And, yeah, I mean, that's like one of the all time great Savatash records. I mean, Streets is great and Edgithorns is great. But boy, that Hollow the Mountain King record, I still listen to it. And like 24 hours ago. Yeah. Great, great opener. Strange, Strange Wings or Strange, what's it called? You know, it's like, that's a classic, that's a classic record. So that has to go in this list for sure. I remember when that came out, it was kind of like, what, what happened? They're not hair metal. They're, they didn't want to classify them back then. They're Prague. No, wait a second. They're heavy metal. Like I think they're just classic heavy metal. Yeah. Just great metal. Yeah. But again, it goes back to what you were saying, Jim, you know, we had like a thrash and hair hair metal kind of competing.  And let's carry on that, that pure heavy metal tradition. I think this is a great example of that. And like I said, I miss this the first time around. And I'm glad I was able to revisit it for this list today.  No, metallic Phoenix says, Todd, thank you for actually reading comments. Most guests don't do that. And by the way, I'm a huge fan of the metal voice. Yeah. Thank you for the nice words. And you know, I think that people, I'm just a fan, just like everybody else. I'm not, I'm not special. I'm not separated from anybody else. I'm the same as everybody else. It's, I don't see myself as up here and they're done. We're just on the other side of the barricade because I happen to be on stage. But believe me, when I'm not on stage and I, and there's bands playing that I love, I'm right in the front at these festivals. I'll go right up front, right in front of the barricade in the photo pit. And people will be like, they'll see that that's me. And I'm like, singing just right along with them. I'm a fan of this stuff too. So very cool stuff. The next, the next band, we're definitely going to have some, some, some kickback. Some kickback. Hold on a sec. Hold on. Where are we? Okay, here it is. Okay. I gotta set this up. I gotta have to set this up. All right. Tell me when you're ready. Don't show yet. I'm sorry, but this had to major. Okay. So this was, are these guys metal? Do they deserve to be there? Have they sold enough albums? And yet. What? So here we go. Check box check. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I just, oh, it's okay. Was anybody not in favor of this band on the list? Well, I don't know. We got trashed last time because we put, you know, thinking about putting David Lee Roth and Van Halen. You were one of them. They said we got one of those two guys. The kickback's coming from Todd. No guys, listen, I mean, you know, I talked about a comeback album of comeback albums. This is four years in the making as well. But look at side one. Okay. Woman, women, rocket, animal, love bites, pour some sugar on me and I'm gonna get in it. That's, that's the greatest hit album. That's the greatest hit album. Plus you got the Hysteria on side two, right? Hold on. Read side two. Side two is Gods of War. Good song. Don't shoot shotgun. Okay. Run riot, Hysteria, excitable and love and affection. So you have to understand when this came out, this played on the radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Like just one song after another. It was huge. You couldn't go anywhere with, that's why I never bought it until 20 years or 30 years later because you didn't need to. It was playing on the radio all the time. Yeah. I mean, look, mutt Lang, I've watched, I think it was a behind the music on that or it was about this record and like the layers of guitars were so ridiculous. But you know what? Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to make a record like that with that many guitars. But you know, one guitar is going gung, gung, gung, gung, gung, gung, gung. Then another one's going gada, gada, gada, gada, gada, gada, gada. Then another one's going doodle doodle doodle doodle. And then one's going bring, bring. So you add all this and you just get this wall of sound that is just like, and those, those vocals, those backing vocals had such, they had that air. Remember back in the 80s, the backing vocals had a very air, like a breathy airy quality to the way they sounded. I mean, they reinvented that. You can hear that on the White Lion album too. You can hear that kind of backing vocal air. But you know what? A lot of people don't know this, that Rick Allen, he didn't play the drums on Pyromenia. He didn't play the drums on Hysteria. He just did a little bit of cymbal stuff. It was all programmed drums. He didn't play on Pyromenia. It was all drum sounds. And was it programmed? Probably it was programmed stuff. And you would do like a little cymbal stuff. And you can look that up. You can look that up. You can look that up. It's just, he was probably there jamming the band, rehearsing with the band. Then he had that big accident, right? Yep. And that's, yeah, he didn't, he didn't. And it's unfortunate though. He did have that accident. He did lay some drum. He probably did the scratch tracks. That's what I would think. And then they sort of like overdid it. Because Montlang had that specific drum sound that he was after. Well, why did it take four years to release that? Well, because they had Jim Steinman as the producer.  And then Rick Allen went to an accident. Then they wanted to produce it themselves. And they go, okay, no, we can't produce it ourselves. So then they waited for Montlang. And, you know, I heard that Nigel Green, the engineer did most of the work on this album. Why is this guy, this guy's saying Aaron Alcott is saying, I really hope Todd is looking up his factoid as we speak. I don't know what he's talking about. I guess they're saying, are we looking at the facts to what I'm saying here. That pyromenia. And again, look, if I'm wrong, by all means, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I remember. Hey, Jimmy. You know what they say to that? All right. Again, again, taking Def Leppard at the time, even though Def Leppard never considered them a heavy metal band, they were lumped in with everybody else. And trust me, after this album came out, everybody tried to sound like Def Leppard as well. So it's true. It's true.  And I think that's where it came from, from the band sweet. That those big, big, airy back vocals. But the question is to everybody out there, is Def Leppard a metal band? And do they deserve to be on this list of 1987? We say yes, but maybe the fans say no. Yeah, but still, are we saying these are the top metal albums of 87 or the top albums of 1987? I don't know. We should have thought it was a little unclear of the concept. We should have made it more clear at the beginning of the show. They're not, they're not a metal band. But maybe back then they were followed by the metal folks. Guys, they were lumped in back. For sure, if you asked anybody back in 87, if these guys were pop dryers, they were full.  That was, that was it. How about this Todd relating to Queens, right? You had the VP, right, which was metal. You had warning what was metal. And then you had Rage Florida. Was it metal? And I asked you this question before, is it metal? It was coming from a metal band, but it really wasn't a metal album, right? I don't really know. I don't, I don't consider that like, but again, going to what Alan says, in the context, if you hear a song like Screaming in Digital, okay, maybe that would be metal. It was very forward thinking at the time, for sure. So Queens, right? Was opening for Ozzie. They weren't opening for Tiffany. Yeah. Right. Right. So, right. All right. All right. Next. Let's move on. All right. Let's move on. All right. Here we go. Number five. This one, this one. Unless first, I'm going to show you that. I'm right here. You ready? I'm dedicating to my good friend, Steve Rod. There you go. Here he is. Here he is. There you go. There you go. I dug it up. I dug it up. That's like 78. You dedicate that to Steve Rod. Oh, sorry, 87. Oh, I thought it was 78. You're right. Yes. This is what I'm talking about. Look at that. Look at that. Look at that beauty. Look at that. I'm the man. I'm the man. I'm so bad. I'm the man. Anthrax, Among the Living. Among the Living, which of course- Is that the back of the record? This is their EP that they released after. Yeah, I'm the man. Oh, okay. I'm the man EP. Caught in a mosh. Indians live. I am the law, I should say. Yeah. But again, you're talking about genre defining, right? Yeah.  You know, this is actually a rap song here. I'm the man's a rap song. They got the hats. They got the shorts. Everybody was moshing. Look at these guys with the shorts. I remember wearing these shorts like- Jams. Jams. For two summers straight. Everybody wanted to look like Scotty. And with the hat flipped up and those shorts- Jams.  They started their own niche. You know where I learned the word jams from? From Florida. Being in Florida. Everybody was wearing jams. I haven't heard that term in ages. It was bathing suits when I left Montreal, but when I went to Florida it was jams. Jams. Wow, that's funny. I always thought that that album cover, I remember seeing it on a t-shirt from somebody in school. And it just looked haunting. When you look at the cover, the other characters don't look as, on the t-shirt, they don't look as, I don't know, haunting. But when you look at the t-shirt, it looks more sinister. On the cover it's a little cleaner and not quite as scary, but I remember that guy with the hat on the cover of that record. And I always loved the guitar tone of anthrax. Even to this day, they've got a really, you know, I don't know what kind of amps they use. I don't know what they're using. But I always loved the crunch on it. The mids were kind of scooped out of it.  I'm not a big fan of that. I'm not a massive fan of that album. I like Cry for the Indians. And, you know, but there are other anthrax records that I like better. But I know that that was a monumental album for the band. You know what, and this is a great, Marcy says a great point here. That album cover is from Poltergeist. Yes, that's what you're going to say. Yes. Yes, that's the character in Poltergeist. Poltergeist 2 or 1? In 1. In 1. You said it was 1. I thought it was 2. The priest, the first priest. Wasn't it the first priest? Like those two priests, the older guy and the younger guy? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's the second one. I know it's from Poltergeist. I don't know which one. So we'll ask our viewers out there. But yeah, that's the use of Poltergeist. No, no, I'm screwing up with the exorcist. No, no, Poltergeist. Yes. Oh, it's Poltergeist. Yeah, it's Poltergeist. You said Poltergeist. Get your factoids right. Yeah, you factoids. We're going to start checking the factoids. What the? But again? Rick Allen, what the hell's going on? Rick Allen, it didn't play on the stereo. Hey, it's called getting your post-engagement stats up there. All right, Jim. Number 4 has got you written all over. What is it? I'm going to finish with number 5, Alan. Oh, sorry. I just want to say that when you think of anthrax, this is, and even the band themselves will say, this is their album. This is the album they're known for. This is the album they play, you know, like guys are going to play the whole album from start to finish on tour. Right. This is the album. It's not my favorite album, but amongst the anthrax fans it is. So I think it's a great album, but it's not my favorite. I think my buddy, Stiffrod, I think you wore out the groove from this one. Good old Stiffrod. He wore out the grooves. I mean, that's how much he liked this album. Stiffrod used to help us carry the lights when we went on interviews. Good old Stiffrod. Stiffrod holds my towel. All right, Alan. Go ahead. Number 4. Oh, no.  Oh, no. Sorry. Me. It's true. Okay. Number 4. Number 4. This is your favorite album. I'll bring out number 4. Here it is. My favorite album. Number 4. Grease is the word. Keep going back to that well, Jim. Keep going. Never get the word. It always works twice a third time. Keep milking it, Jim. No. Number 4. King Diamond Abigail. Very similar to Iron Thrax. This is the go-to album. They've been playing this song, or actually they've been playing this album on tour from start to finish many, many, many times. They have videos released on this whole album. They even came out with part 2 of Abigail. King Diamond is known for this album. This is probably one of the amongst King Diamond fans and I'm one of them. This is the greatest album. It is. This is the greatest album. It always will be his greatest album. And that's all I got to say. I think I just love it from start to finish. I met King. I met King. You know what I did? As I was talking to King, we're just sitting there chit-chatting. I was talking to him. He said, King's talking to me. And we're standing there. He was waiting. I was backstage with Andy LaRocque. Okay. Because long story. But he invited me backstage. And I was there and we're standing around to go and introduce you to King. And then King's there. He starts talking to me. And he's talking to me. And then his baby comes. His wife brings his baby. His baby's there. King and his baby. And it was bizarre. Great meeting. He sacrificed his baby. I was so touched. I ended up hugging him. And I ended up hugging King. And it's kind of like, whoa, what are you doing? Yeah, I would be a little freak, too, Jimmy. You just go and hug me out of nowhere. Anyways, King was amazing. Very, very down to earth. Again, something very unique. Let's say that for me. It's very unique. It really stands out. Nothing sounded like this as far as I'm concerned. Nothing on this list, at least. Yeah. Any thoughts on King Diamond? My friend Andre Van Show is an awesome singer. And he sings in a King Diamond tribute band. And he does the full makeup. His voice sounds just like him. He knows all that stuff. I don't know a lot of the King Diamond stuff or merciful fate. You know what? I love the music. But something about the really high falsetto that sounded falsetto-y and less powerful, like a Halford high scream. This was more light. Yeah. It never resonated with me.  King Manson, get on the King Diamond bandwagon there. It's kind of like me. I'm just, look, I have immense respect for him. As an artist. And I like the mid-range and lower singing that he does. It's the really, really high stuff that I just don't connect with it. I try a million times. But I love the music and the band. It's awesome. I've watched interviews from him. He's very well spoken. He seems like a really nice guy. But for me, I'm just not well versed enough in his material to comment. But I do know that people that love King Diamond love that record. I do know that because I have friends that go bash. That's me. That's one. I'm one of those. Like, I love everything King Diamond. I love his voice. It's kind of like his greatest asset and his greatest liability. I know Alan, I try to, I try to, Alan, listen to this from King Diamond. Alan's like, you just, it's the high fall set of that sort of sometimes drives people away. But to me, it's his biggest asset. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he really takes his time writing albums. He takes his time writing the lyrics. He takes his time designing assets. It's the whole, he's the real deal, man. He puts everything he's got into shows and into his music. We played one of the last shows we played on the, one of our European tours in 2019. We played, oh, what was the festival? I think it was Summer Breeze. And we had a really late bus call. And me and Michael and some of the crew guys, we walked, Casey was with us. We walked out to see it was totally dark. So the set looked amazing. All the lights and this beautiful, I have video of it. I think actually on my, on my YouTube channel, I have some blogging kind of vlogging footage where I'm watching the King Diamond show from, from out front. And, you know, the, the, it's a whole show, right? It's not just like get up and play song. Yes, yes. It's, it's very theatrical. It's very conceptual. And so you're getting a really full experience with his music, which makes it that much better as somebody who just enjoys watching shows. Yeah. You know, but anyway, that's, that's, that's my three cents. All right, are we ready for number three? I think. Talk three now. We're gonna talk three of 87 people are already guessing since we started the show, even before we started the show. Yeah. All right. So somebody, somebody, somebody, hold on, somebody named K-Man Reborn says, learn the story, Todd. Learn the reason why he's singing, what he's singing, and you'll get where he's coming from. I'm not have, I have no contention with the storyline or anything he's doing. I'm not really sure of the sentiment behind text, but my critique or criticism, whatever you want to call it, is I don't like the sound of the really high stuff that he does. That's just my opinion. I'm allowed to say not really. He's got some great deep tones though. When he sings low, he's got some very deep tones. I like the lower stuff. It's just the really high stuff. I just, I just don't care for that tone. And that's it. But everything else, I, you know, I think it's great. Yeah. All right, Alan, you ready? We all agreed on this next one. Pumpkin heads unite. Here it is. Here's number three. Oh, I see. I caught everybody off guard. I caught everybody off guard. Number three. That's to you, Mike. You guys thought it would be Greece. It was. Today's show about to you, Mike. And now brought to you by our sponsors. Number three. Here we go, guys. I got the creeper of the keys, part one. See, I got, I got one and two here. I got one and two here, by the way. The CD here is one and two. Even though I have the album somewhere, I think I have my parents' house or something. I actually prefer number three over, and I'm all the keepers. I prefer three, but that's just my opinion. We're talking 87. So this makes the list of cores with Mr. Michael Kiske. Oh my gosh. Stand back and let the little boy sing. What do you think about his voice, Todd? Now you got to put your singer hat on. Put your singer hat on. You know, I, when I heard growing up, I think I said on the last show where I learned a testament and all this, I learned of Halloween from the show called V32. And Halloween, they had a video for that. You know, down to get down, down to get down. Masquerade, masquerade. Down, down to get down, down to get down. And I thought it was like, and he had a very Jeff Tate, Queen Drake, you know, all those, the crying inflections, you know, that he would do great range. But I love the, I am the one that. You know, it was very dramatic, dramatic. Very dramatic, you know, it's shining on me. That whole, you know, great, great guitars. And I love, I had the record. I still had the CD that I got from way back when it's, it's in my garage where my stereo is. And I, yeah, I mean, that's a, it's a killer. What's the, what's the ballad, the big ballad? Name the big ballad on the record. The time. Alan, what is it? Future world. There's still, I wouldn't say that's a ballad. Somebody comment on what the, what the. Until that wasn't right. Until it wasn't right from K-Man Reborn too. Thank you. Until that wasn't right. Good job. My wife loves that. She plays that in the house. You know, she loves that song. He's great. I mean, it's a killer band. We've played with them a few times. And Andy sings, you know, let's not forget all the great stuff that Andy's done in the band too. Exactly. Now they tour with both singers, which I don't know why, but I guess it's for the whole Pumpkins United tour thing. And that's what they're, if they're still promoting that, I don't know. Yeah, they are. They're coming out with an album. Okay. Yeah. You know, I'm alive or let me look, let me google the track listing. Well, I was there. I was there at their show of the, Derris and Alan didn't make that show. I think you were out of town or something. Right. I was flying to Ireland. The show I anticipate the most I wanted to see. Oh, great show, man. Derris and Kiske and the whole band and you have Kai Hansen. What strikes me about this album? Look, we're talking 87. We're far into the game here. And this is their only, their third album first with Kiske. So that's what strikes me. I mean, I was trying to find Halloween and I didn't have the money, like I said, on the past shows where they just kind of slipped through the cracks for me. Now we visit, I got all their albums like 30 years later. I really appreciate the band. But 87, man, this is far in. And again, another band like Savatage, right? That's keeping the classic metal sound alive. But the rest of everybody else was going in different directions. So there's very few bands that were actually doing what they were doing at this time. And vocally, like I say, he had a very similar approach and tone in many ways to like the early Queensrake stuff. Yeah, you know how I discovered the album? I'm sure it was either a circus or a hip raider in the back. And they're just kind of reviewing the sound. They go, it's kind of like Jeff Tate and Iron Maiden, you know, sort of like between Iron Maiden and Queensrake at a time, right? And I just picked it up because it was a cool cover. And wow, it was just blown away. And to this day, I just love Halloween. Yeah, for me, the first two albums were like Germany's Iron Maiden. That's right. They started getting their own sound, I found. When we listened to it today there, I said, no, they were definitely getting their own sound. There's a little power metal there. There's a little speed metal there. And there's definitely a lot of Prague there. So that's what it comes down to. All right, guys, you ready for this? I'm ready. You know what I want? You're number two, big year, 87. This could almost be 80. This is what I got. Hold on.  Oh, okay. We're going to have some back and forth between this one and number one. We'll explain why. We'll explain why. On my birthday, July 21st, not 87, but. Okay. So we were talking about comeback albums and, you know, slow cookers like the White Outline Pride.  Oh, yeah. This is a big. I saw these guys open for Iron Maiden, Seven Sun of the Seven Sun Tour. That says May of 88. And they were just saying our new videos coming out next week. And that was Sweet Child of Mine. So that, that's how long it took for this album to really, really, really take off. But when it took off, I mean, still selling, I would imagine. Okay. This album sold, and I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, about 30 million copies worldwide, considered one of the best overall albums ever sold. No, I'm not saying in the top 10, but let's say in the top 50 at least worldwide. debut album, debut album, especially. I'm going to tell you, this album came out July 21st on my birthday. I probably, I was at a friend's house. He had a copy of it. His brother had a copy of it. I put it on, it was pretty cool. Had never heard of the band. Only to love it. And then tell my friends about it. My friends used to laugh at me.   And then there was like something on MTV or much music that where they played like a live show and they were just laughing at me.   And 1988 could have been higher. But Alan's logic is the album only really took off in 1988. But we're not changing the rules, Todd. It was at least in 87. We kept it in 87. We just brought it down a notch. You know, my, one of my dear friends, Froda, he was also our tour manager for Crimson Glory. And he manages a band called Pagan's Mind. I think he still works with Circus Maximus too. But he said, so I guess that puts T and T at number one, right, Todd? He didn't get the memo. Ten thousand lovers. Dude. All right. Look, somebody's like, you know, G&R isn't, isn't metal. Well, that's the big one right here. That's a dresses right now. Okay. But neither, okay. Neither is White Lion and neither is Def Leppard. So that, that ship sailed five albums ago. Yeah. Yeah.  And you never, you didn't, you know, the guy's voice, the way that they had great melodies like Rocket Queen.  That record was massive. And even though, okay, it was a late bloomer. So was, so was Operation Mindcrime. Look, Michael and Eddie, they told me they were almost kicked off the hysteria Def Leppard tour. And then Eyes of a Stranger video came out and boom. Mindcrime goes nuts. So actually, even though something came out, you know, didn't get as accepted or, or received or known as well until a little bit later, it was released in that year. That record is insanely good. There's nobody's disputing that. Nobody's arguing that. Look, look at this. This is a perfect example. If they had poor management and a terrible record company behind them, we wouldn't even be talking about them today. We'd say, oh, hidden gem, that album that never really broke. It was because of the people behind them. They're managers that sort of shopped it around. They shopped the video. They pushed a video on MTV. MTV was playing. They got the fan club to sort of call in and request that video. And that's how Welcome to Jungle took off. And that's how we took off so late. This was almost shelved. This was like, ah, it's not really doing that well.  This is a perfect example of if you don't have the right people behind you, behind a great product, you just basically collect the dust. Let's address this is not metal. Have you seen the video for Welcome to the Jungle? That's right. Axl's hair. Don't tell me he wasn't influenced by the hair metal of LA in that video, right? Even though the sound is completely different. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying. We've got to go back. We're putting on our 1987 hats here. Right, right, right. And we're saying, yeah, trust me, they open for Maiden. Maiden's not a pop band. They open for Aerosmith. You could say they're a hard rock band. That was a good fitting. They're two, two, two are very similar groups. But I mean, they were part of the heavy metal movement. That's why they made the list. Yeah, it was a metal crowd that. And I remember seeing it when I saw them open. I was 19 and all these 16 and 15 year olds are going crazy. They're blocking my view of the stage. They're going crazy. I'm waiting for Maiden. And I get these guys off slash daggers up to them.   Nobody even knows these guys exist. Drop the mic. The next day, I couldn't get Mr. Brownstone out of my head. I was singing it all day long. I just, that song was like drilled into my head. And then you go into the album. You listen to the album. Okay. A few videos come out. And then you see, like Todd said, every song of that album. And years later, like when, you know, after everybody's been listening to you for a year, I remember saying, okay, now that they're all multimillionaires, because this was an angry album. I've never heard so much anger on an album in my life. And not fake anger. This is legitimate anger. These guys were pissed off cats, man. And I said, now that they're all millionaire, I'm anxious to see what the, how much anger is on the next album. And we got stuff like, don't cry. And the, you know, the one with the rain falling that November rain, right? The rain. Fall in your heart. Yeah.  And just so you know, Todd, a little bit of history.  And speaking to the anger, just maybe 10 minutes from where we live, that's where they, you know, the riots happen, the guns and roses riots. Oh, really? Yeah. We're, we're Metallica's head went on fire. Oh, that was Michael Jackson. His head was. No, no, James Hetfield. His arm went on fire. His arm went on fire.  And it was a big one. One of those after Axl made everybody wait for two hours. Yes, that too. That too. So there you go. A little bit of Montreal history there. Todd, any last statement on guns and roses? I just think, I mean, you know, when that stuff came out, I, look, I was a fan of like the Jackson V guitars in the Kellys and like, I saw this guy with this top hat playing a Les Paul. I was like, yeah, I'm not really a blues. I don't really like blues stuff that much. And it was a blues. You can hear blues in the rock, in that record. But man, the guy just his voice. He did really, you know, interesting things. And he had just a unique tone, whether you love it or hate it. The songs were great.  And you can hear that in the writing, in the playing. And I mean, that record today, God, they still play songs off of that. It's who knew that it would be so many years later that it would be hailed as one of the great records of all time. And I think it is. It is definitely. No argument there. And to sort of like say, it's not a metal album. We shouldn't include it. It's kind of like ignoring that white elephant in the room. It's just standing there. You can't ignore it. Well, you know why? Because, because we like had, I had to Google records of, you know, rock metal albums of 1987 to see what's in the list. Like Lizzie Borden. Yes. Where is he bored in? I think that guy's voice is so good. I love his voice. He has a really unique sound and, you know, so their loudness put a record out. But when we go by the criteria, it's like, you know, unfortunately, you got to make some of those cuts. Although TNT tell no tales, wasn't that 87? Okay, that's one of my all time favorite records ever. We'll talk about that in a few moments. How's that? Well, we'll talk about the ones we should have been on. The hidden gems. Okay, before getting to number one, we'll let Todd talk about it. All right, go ahead and say it. Say what you want to say. Say TNT, baby. There you go. His hidden gem is TNT tell no tales.  You know, and Tony Harnell's voice is so good. And I love like, you know, the Knights of New Thunder and, you know, but my favorite is, is tell no tales. That record is just awesome. And, you know, I've become good friends with Tony. And, and we've talked about, you know, how influential that record. And, you know, that record was very influential. And it was one of the, I mean, I could never sing like that. But I, I love, you know, there's so much good melody on there. And any, any fan of TNT, no. He was singing pretty high, man. He was singing pretty high. His voice was, I mean, you listen to tell, I can probably hit that when I was in Crimson Glory. But, you know, it was just, yeah, that, that I'm not going to get into the, the nooks and crannies. Well, where would you put it in number 10? I'd have a top 10 list. Where would you put TNT's album? Of my, of my pro, if we're, if we're doing your own list here, where would you put it? Where would you put it? Of my favorite records among that list? 87, yes. Your friends are watching. I would probably, I would probably, hold on, let me look at, let me look at this list again. I would probably put, I think I would put TNT at number one among all. Wow. I would put, I would put tell no tales above every album on this list. That's right. That's why it's a hidden gem. There you go. There's someone else that just hit us right here. We kind of played one. That and back for the attack for me are my top two favorite albums on this whole list. Okay. CK wants to know, is he from Canada, Alan? And he has a funny accent, I guess, is that you? Alan, you have a funny accent. I have a funny accent. Who would have thought? I wouldn't know. Okay. So you guys ready? Yeah. I'm trying to get back to the comments here. Hold on a second. Okay. Just so, so everybody knows out there, me and Alan, we live 10 minutes from each other, but we actually do this Skype slash Zoom thing. You got a hidden gem you want to throw in here? Oh, I got a lot of hidden gems. Well, go ahead. Throw it in right now. How's this? Todd just did his. You can do yours. Yeah. Give me your hidden gem. I'm trying to find the comment. A band that a lot of people know I'm a huge fan of is Death Angel. Oh, yeah.   What an album. And what a band today. Also Loudness, as Alan has in the back there, Hurricane Eyes. I love that album. I think it's a great album. It's got a lot of diversity. Udo, Udio. Animal House. Animal House. I think that's another cool album. Does it meet all our criteria? Probably not. Voivode, Montreal Band or Quebec Band. Killing Technology. Good friends. Testament, The Legacy. I think it's a worthwhile mention, even though I don't think it meets all our criteria. I don't think they've kind of developed their style yet. They're not there yet, but it's a good debut album. And Dio, Dream Evil. Yeah. You know, I don't think it's his best, but I think it's his fourth best since his fourth album. And that's it. Those are my hidden gems. Alan? There you go. I didn't know we were loud more than one. Well, go ahead. I don't want it in Jimmy. I'm not a host. I just... You give Jimmy an inch. Look at my shirt. Guys, look at my shirt. What is that? Metal Hall of Fame. Look at that. We said Jimmy just won and he comes up with 12. Well, no, I had a list. Alan goes, we should have some mutant gems. So I started writing it in gems. I'm going to start thinking of things. Well, there you go. I guess I'll go with this one right here behind me. You're rolling out it. Oh, okay. You got it. It's not a metal album. It's not a metal album. That's me. That's me. Aerosmith Permanentification. That was a great comeback. We're talking about comeback. Like I said, year of the comeback. I thought that was a great one. So if I had to... Helix. Where's your Helix? You got Helix back there. Helix. I won't say anything. I won't do like Jimmy and say 14 different great hidden gems or top 10s. But that was a nice comeback from Gary Moore, too, from his attempt at the pop balladry on Run for Cover. So here we go. Now we're at number one. Helix. Helix. And now we'll work from our sponsor. Wait a second. Here we go. Hey, get in there. Ty Luthori. Ty Luthori. I love Luthori. Ty Luthori, have you picked it up? Available on all Amazon platform. So, Alba. iTunes. There you go. They're just bidirect. All right. All right, number one. We'll go with number one. If I open it up, Todd, what happens? Oh, look, you got all the lyrics. I didn't even notice. You got all the lyrics. He's got photos. Oh, look at that. Look at these guys. Angry. Tell us about your buddy there, your writing partner. His name is Craig Blackwell. He's a lifelong friend of mine. Awesome guitarist, songwriter. He and I did the whole record together. And he co-wrote with me. And he played all the guitars and bass and some keyboards on the album. So, yeah. Respect. Respect. There you go. A little bit of a plug for Craig. Oh, yeah. I just want to throw this out because I hit in jam here. Lydia's been writing this for the last half an hour. Good. I think she wants pretty maids. Yes. Future world to be in there. So. All right. And Thor. 87. Did Thor come out with an album? You would love Thor. You would love Thor. All right, guys. Here we go. And I'll explain. Are we both Canadian? Yes, we're both Canadian, except for Todd. He's American. All right, here we go. All right, here we go. Bot this. Oh, that is.  Bot this. The day it came out. The day it came out. And by July, I put it in my closet and then listened to it for three years. It was that massive. Talked about Def Leppard playing everywhere. When Whites, they came out. First of all, I was, you know, this is also an album that took forever to make. Coverdale had vocal problems. John Sykes had 26 tracks of guitar. It was John Collard in there. It was the worst album he ever had to produce. It was just a mess from slide it in all the way to now. But man, the end result speaks for itself.  And he got Bad Boys Still of the Night, which was their Zeppelin tribute, right? Here I go again, which was previously released. But again, nobody followed them when they were over in Europe, right? The biggest band in Europe. And Ozzie's opening for them in Europe. And here, I mean, they're the third on the bill, right? They're all blonde. Suddenly, Rudy Sars has gone blonde there. The ballad, Children of the Night are straight ahead. Rockers straight for the heart. Don't turn away. I thought it was a great, great closer. Give me all your love. They still play to this day. I mean, and this album was instantaneous. When you talk like we said Guns N' Roses, it kind of took its time. Like a fine wine. This, this one hit the radios right away. And of course, the videos with Tony Catan didn't hurt any, didn't hurt any. Flying out of a car. So I mean, it went viral. The videos went viral. And it was like that death leopard. The songs are just being released one after another, right? So, you know, Still of the Night and then Crying in the Rain. And, and then they just, is this Love the Ballad? I think that four or five videos just off of this album. I met John Sykes. I met John Sykes once, too. And he was kind of, he's a really tall guy, right? I'm five, eight. So he's like this really tall guy hovering over me. I go, Hey, you're John Sykes. And I didn't take a picture or anything like that. And that's about it. I met him when I saw Blue Murder play and I got to meet him. I think they opened up for, they opened up for warrant, I think. Oh, wow. So I'm on Wikipedia really quick. And I'm just looking at their studio records. That's the seventh studio album. Yeah, I think so. And I mean, of course, there's remakes, you know, the remake of Here I Go, right? Not Here I Go. Which one is it, Alan? Yeah, it was off of the 1980 album. Yeah. You have two of them on this. You've got Crying in the Rain. And you've got Here I Go again. I mean, think about this. Ten million copies sold worldwide. This was a big Here I Go again remake and Crying in the Rain was a remake. But I was a huge white snake that I'd listened. My friend introduced me to Slide It In. I went back and bought all the previous albums, Ready and Willings, my favorite white snake album. I listened to, you know, I had all their older stuff. And then this finally comes out. Like I said, I bought it the day it came out and then I listened to it, gone crazy and loved it. But it was oversaturated. You couldn't go anywhere where they're doing these songs. And I literally put it away for three years without listening to it. There was no need to listen to it. The songs were everywhere. So yeah, that was massive. I was in another band called Espionage for a while. We played all these gigs, you know, local clubs around here.   They were massive.  Off the charts, yeah. Off the charts, dude. God, I wish I was doing. You know, still of the night when I, it's like, is this Led Zeppelin? What is this? What's going on here? It's just the midsection with that, that, that, that, you know, that, that, that violin. It's like, oh, and then his scream comes in right, right, right before the solo. It's like perfection. That's like a perfect hard rock and blue song. I mean, yeah, it's not metal. But back then, White Snake kind of catered to the metal crowd. I mean. So our buddy, Martin Popoff wrote a great book about White Snake. And he really focused a lot on this album. I mean, John Kaladner wanted the Coverdale and Sykes to be the next Jimmy Page, Robert Plant. You know, he saw the potential, two good-looking guys, massive talents, great songwriters. He, he was like, you know, this is Jaggers and Richards. We can go decades with these guys. And by the time this was released, John was already out of the bag. Did he quit? Was he fired? We'll never know. He was, yeah, a fair lot. Let's just say Butting of Heads. He wrote this whole album. He co-wrote this great album. According to Popoff's book, Coverdale was having so many problems with his vocals. But one of the reasons why he had so many problems with his vocals is John was using like a wall-wall pedal or something. And he had 26 tracks. And there's no way he could place his tunings as a singer. I mean, Todd could probably elaborate on this when the guitars are all over the place. It was hard for him to find the right pitch to get into tune, so. Interesting. But you know, I remember reading something about, you know, as an interview with John Sykes and how irritated he was that here's the video, you know, and you know, Adrian Vandenberg or here's these other guys playing and it's like, the guy's not even, you know, it reminds me of the Robert Fleischman. That's right, Vinnie Vincent. Vinnie Vincent. Millie Vanilly. And I think even Just God Soto had a similar situation with him singing something. And somebody else is in the video, you know, I think I'm correct on that. But I know I'm right with the Robert Fleischman. What was the song? It was the first song by Vinnie Vincent Invasion. Yeah. The boys are going to rock or something. Probably. Yeah, yeah. The boys are going to rock. But I mean, it got to the point. John's like, we don't need David. We could go on without him. And then he goes, it's his band, White Snake. I mean, his first album was literally called David Coverdale's White Snake. Yeah. Right? Yeah.  I didn't do that. Yeah. So, I mean, and John's like, hey, we don't need this guy with full speed ahead. I think, I think that's where he lost the plot a bit. But hey, look to our benefit, we got great album like Blue Murder that came from that afterwards. So. Yeah. All right. Any more hidden gems, guys? I'm sure you have another 20 up your sleeve. No, it's I'm done. I'm done. I'm good too. So, all right. So, guys, there's a 1987 kind of a transitional year for everything we explained. The anxious to get to 88. I already started under some really big hitters coming in 88. So. Yeah. I think there's some interesting stuff. Thrash has really taken, really taken off by then, right? So, yeah. All right. Good list. And thanks for everybody on the comments. I see somebody who's talking about a cool V guitar that they have. Let me see. You know, Eternal Idol. I just want to, I just want to talk about Eternal Idol for a second before we go off. It's a great album. And I go through the criteria on this. Did it sell a lot at the time? No, it did not sell a lot. Maybe over time it sold. It's not like it went Platinum, Double Platinum, Triple Platinum at the time. And it could have, but it didn't. Did the critics love it at the time? Yeah, it was a 50-50 split. They're saying this is not Black Sabbath, right? Exactly. I don't even know who they are. Genre, Eternal Idol, Black Sabbath. Oh, okay. Black Sabbath, Eternal Idol. Yeah. Oh, there it is. Okay. And was the genre defining?  No. So, I mean, it really doesn't really meet any of the markers. I do like the album though. I'm putting, yes, the Shining, I love that song. Yeah. I'm putting my 1987 hat on. I'm pretending I'm back into the record store. Black Sabbath, this is a joke. The album, when it was launched, went right into the 399 bin.  That's how much of a joke. Seven Star, it was a Tony Iommi Black solo album. That was a big slap in the face. They couldn't get rid of a Black Sabbath. So, that was a joke. That went straight to the 399 bin. Then you lose track. Ozzy's exploding. Ozzy's the biggest star in the world by this point, right? Yeezer's not in the band. Bill Ward's not in the band. Dio's doing his own thing. And Tony's there and nobody was following them. It was over for them. So, yes, we visited this years later. I love The Shining. There's some great songs on here. But back in 87, this was under the ground. Back then, think of a band that's completely under the radar today. That was Black Sabbath. You might love the album today, but back then, they were done. That's what it felt like. They're washed up. I like the Dio Black Sabbath stuff. Ah, me too.  Well, you know what? Thank you, everybody, for jumping on. Todd, thanks again. Some great insight. Thank you, everyone. And thanks so much for the awesome shirt. Nice, nice. And it fits. It fits. You got one to fit. That's it. I love it. Look at that. Yeah, there we go. We just ordered more because all of our shirts sold out. So, I talked to the company today. They're restocked. So, I'll send both of you guys a warning. Nice. Nice. Thank you so much. There we go. Pick it up. Todd Lattori. Yeah, pick it up. Awesome. All right. Have a nice night, everybody. Thank you, Todd. Good to see you, buddy. Okay. Thanks so much, Jimmy. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in.  Todd, Kalinichta. That's good. Yeah, he's really good. I don't know what he's saying, but he's really good. I like what he's eating. It looks good, though. I said, I'll call you later, stiff rod. Good old stiff rod. If you come to Montreal, we'll introduce you to stiff rod, the legendary stiff rod. He looks like a stiff rod. Bring the grease, album. All right. Thanks, Todd. Thanks, everybody.